156 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b3336f4938180807ae9c64c0d86a4409.jpg db71c37dd0abb33cdb4900125134675e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cb6d2f99a0ffe00e6f9bb2fe56ea0e8d.mp3 d1ef073e5c3eb237bebcccb924ca32bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-12-22 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ellis Cose Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}" data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Ellis Cose, a native of Chicago, is a columnist and editor for Newsweek. He is the author of a dozen books including the best-selling \&quot;The Rage of a Privileged Class\&quot;. He became a columnist at the age of 19 and he became a contributor for the Times Magazine. Cose appeared on several shows and he has been interviewed frequently around the world. Ellis earned his Bachelor's degree in Psychology from the University of Illinois and a Master’s degree in Science, Technology and Public Policy from George Washington University.&quot;}">Ellis Cose, a native of Chicago, is a columnist and editor for <em>Newsweek</em>. He is the author of a dozen books including the best-selling <em>The Rage of a Privileged Class</em>. He became a columnist at the age of 19 and he became a contributor for the <em>Times Magazine</em>. Cose appeared on several shows and he has been interviewed frequently around the world. Ellis earned his Bachelor's degree in Psychology from the University of Illinois and a Master’s degree in Science, Technology and Public Policy from George Washington University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6979,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Verdana&quot;}" data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; divisions; Healing; Vietnam War; Generations; Segregation; Media; Racial conflict; Riot, Journalist; Inner-city school; African American; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Panthers; Criminal justice system; Jim Crow.&quot;}">Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; divisions; Healing; Vietnam War; Generations; Segregation; Media; Racial conflict; Riot, Journalist; Inner-city school; African American; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Panthers; Criminal justice system; Jim Crow.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 178:08 Subject LCSH African American editors; African American Authors; Cose, Ellis--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ellis Cose Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 22 December 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:05): Testing one, two. One of the questions that I have asked everybody in the interview process, I normally ask it toward the end of the interview, but I am going to ask it in the beginning this time, is that do you believe, as a boomer, that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing from the divisions that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s, the intense divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who were for the Vietnam War and against it? I ask this question because I took a group of students to see Edmond Muskie in 1995, and we asked that same question to him, and the students felt that he was going to respond based on what happened at the convention in (19)68. And, of course, (19)68 was an unbelievable year with a lot of tragedy. And so, they thought he was going to talk about the 1968 conventions and the tremendous divisions in the country. I will let you know what he said, but what are your thoughts? EC (00:01:18): Well, I guess my thought is that I am not sure that I agree the whole concept of healing to begin with. I think that we are all shaped by our times in a huge way. We are shaped by the things that are important to us in a huge way. And if by healing we mean that as we approach old age, we resolve those issues and we agree about those conflicts and we reach a state of harmony with one another, I am not sure that that happened. I think that we have certainly put the Vietnam War collectively as a nation behind us, and I think that the emotions that were invested in that once upon the time are not nearly what they were, even among people who were directly involved with exception here or there. I also think that if we look at the question of race, clearly, we have come a huge distance in this country when it comes to the ability of white to see African Americans as [inaudible] beings. Though, interestingly enough, I mean, I just finished turning in the manuscript for a book that looks at generations, including the boomers, those who are treat boomers, the silence, so calls and also the millennials. And one thing that is very clear to me is that in terms of how capable different generations of races are of seeing each other as human beings, a lot of that has to do with the generation in which they were shaped. Not so much with the conflict of the generations, but just the ethos of a particular generation. People who grew up in segregated setting have an awfully difficult time getting beyond that, it is not a question of healing, it is just that their entire experience growing up was of believing that people were destined to be separate. People who came up right after segregation have a different way of looking at things, but they were still raised in society where it was a big deal for blacks and whites to marry each other for blacks and whites, to be close friends with one another. And those people in large measure never get to a point where they get beyond that. It is not a question for me of conflicts, it is not an issue of, " I was a segregationist or an integrationist," and therefore we heal somehow, there is a language of healing, and I am very familiar with it. I hear it a lot. There are different groups which come together to do what they call healing. That whole idea implies that once upon a time people were whole. Somehow in the course of event, they develop a wound and then they are going to go and somehow heal this wound. I just think it misconstrues human relationship. So I guess my answer to that is that yes, I think that to some extent we get over the conflicts of the past, but I just do not really accept the language of healing that... SM (00:04:50): Yeah, when Senator Musky responded, the students again that came with me, none of them were alive during the Vietnam War. They had all seen these on videos and so forth, and they were surprised that Senator Musky did not even comment on the (19)60s or anything to do with (19)68. He basically commented that we have not healed since the Civil War over the issue of race, and that he went into detail talking about it. And another thing too, when you think of healing, a lot of people from the Vietnam War think of Kim Phuc because she has come, the girl in the picture from the Vietnam War. I interviewed her and the whole interview with her was, she is a very forgiving and healing person, and we must move on. And one other comment before getting the next question is when I interviewed the late Gaylord Nelson at his office at the Wilderness Society, I knew him quite well. And he said, he was struck by the question, he says, nobody is walking around Washington DC talking about not healing from the Vietnam War or the divisions that took place at that time. They do not wear it on their sleeve, but he said it is permanently in the body politic. And that is where the impact really is in the politics itself. Just a little side light of this question now, do you feel that the Vietnam Memorial itself has helped the nation heal? EC (00:06:17): Well, it runs into the same issue. I do not believe in this concept of healing. I just do not. I mean, think it is great, and I think it has acknowledged the contributions of people who through no fault of their own, got involved in the conflict that the nation collectively ended up repudiating. And so I think that is a good thing. But I think healing is almost clinical therapeutic concept that does not really apply to what happens in the context of a national conflicts, except for people who were very much on the front lines of those and did suffer some sort of clinical result as a consequence of that. And in those cases, I think it goes individual to individual. Some individuals are capable of healing, some are not. But I do not think that nation heal in that way. I think that is something that individuals do within themselves. SM (00:07:23): I have done a lot of reading on your background. You have got your website's great, by the way. EC (00:07:26): Thank you. SM (00:07:27): I think you have a great website and there is some great biographies of you, just small biographies of your background and your books and the themes of your books, and certainly your growing up years. But I always ask this because the people that are going to be reading these interviews will not have read your books and will certainly will hope they will after the interviews. But how did you become who you are? What was it like growing up in Chicago as a teenager? What were your college years? Was there activism on your campus when you were an undergraduate student? And were you involved in any of the organizations at your college? EC (00:08:11): I came to writing for a very simple reason, and then I have written about this before. But basically the reason I became a writer was because of riots in my community. I came up on the west side of Chicago, and I was a kid in high school when Martin Luther King was fascinated in 1968. And my community literally went up in flames. And the same thing had happened to that same community on the west side of Chicago in 1966. It went up in flames in that instance because of a police conflict, which is actually what led a lot to the riot of the (19)60s of a conflict between a citizen and the cops. And that caused an uprising. It took indeed, of course, it came just the King. But in both instances, there were fires, there were tanked, the community, and there was pretty significant violence. And as a kid, we were watching that and then reading the press reports at the time, I realized that the press reports that I was reading about bore no resemblance community about my community, bore no resemblance to community that I was living in. And this gets, actually into your previous question about healing. And my point about generation, if we go back to the late (19)60s, this was the time when the major newspapers, firstly had no black reporters at all. There were an exceptions here and there, but the so-called major media simply saw no reason back then to hire blacks. And so when they covered something like a racial conflict or a riot, they covered it as if they were covering a third world community they did not understand, full of people who were irrational and who were not full human being. And you can see this very clearly in any of the coverage of those days, if you go back and read some of the accounts, the riots from back then. And I made the decision, even though I was not terribly interested initially in being a writer, that someone needed to write about these kinds of things that had some understanding of these communities. And it happened to coincide with an ongoing conflict I had was with an English teacher over doing assignments because I was a bright kid and the assignments in my way of thinking or mind numbingly stupid. I got her to agree that my assignment would be to write a paper on riot and why they occur in the communities [inaudible] have them. And she ended up agreeing to this for my assignment for English for that year. And for the first time, I got excited about writing and ended up turning in a manuscript of somewhere between 130 and 200 pages as I recall, which she received, took home, read, came back and told me, I am going to give you an A for the course, but I am not really capable of grading this, judging this, you need to send it to a professional." I had no idea what a professional writer was really. She advised me to send it to Gwendolyn Brooks. Because Gwendolyn Brooks was a poor [inaudible] Illinois. Gwendolyn Brooks read it, got in touch with me, essentially told me I needed to think about becoming a writer as the profession. And that launched me into becoming a writer. I also happened to get a job as a columnist for the Chicago Sun Time when, well, when I was 18 as a columnist for their school supplement publication, but I was 19, became a columnist for their actual newspaper. So all of that obviously influenced heavily my decision to become a journalist, to become a writer. SM (00:12:40): Was that experience in Chicago when you were young, how did that affect your psyche? You were having the experience of someone who was saying you were a really good writer. Can you hold on a second? My cell phones? Hold on one second. Hold on one second. Hello? Yes-yes. No-no-no-no. I am ready to head off. Yeah, well, I cannot get any over there any earlier though. Okay. Okay. Oh, just get me a couple hamburgers. That is it. Okay. Yep, that is it. I am actually on the phone with my landlord. Upper window. Okay. All right. Thanks, Jim. Bye. Ellis, you still there? EC (00:14:06): Yes. SM (00:14:06): My brother has gone because he is getting an eye appointment today. That is why I am leaving early. EC (00:14:13): Well, you asking. SM (00:14:13): Yeah, I was asking about the psyche. EC (00:14:14): Psyche. SM (00:14:15): What was it about you personally that even though these very terrible things were happening in this country, that you felt within yourself that you were going to be a success as a writer? It was a kind of, nothing was going to stop you. EC (00:14:31): Well, I never thought, even as a very, very young man, that I was not going to be a success at whatever it was that I decided to do. Why did I feel that way? Well, it certainly was not the result of coming up in the projects. There were not a whole lot of folks who were particular successes in the projects. But I think it was my psychology, and my psychology was shaped, I am sure by some measure, by the fact that I knew I was a very bright kid. Despite the fact that I went to terrible inner-city schools, which had all the terrible things happening to them that you read about, and that the teachers, at least many of them were very uninterested in teaching much of anything. And despite the fact that the schools at least found that I went to did not but they were fairly violent. I was always acknowledged as a bright kid. I always tested off the charts. When time came for me to go to high school, I got into a high school out of my neighborhood, which was when high school considered, it was at the time the fitted the best public school in the city because I tested well and always tested well. And so I knew I was a bright kid, and so I knew I had potential, at least mental potential. I also knew that I was a hard worker. So despite the fact that there were lots of messages that came to kids in my community here, "You are never going to be anything. You are going to be a failure. You are never going to amount too much in life." I just found it very easy to tune that out because it is, from my perspective has just been a part of me. SM (00:16:31): I was talking at some of the major events when you were young, even very young. How did the following event shape your consciousness as a young African-American teenager and young adult, and obviously some of these things, you were born in (19)51, so you were very young, nine or 10, I am not sure if you were aware of all of them, but as you aged, I broke down in some of these events. You were 12, 13, 14, 18, 20. But I am just going to list some of the key events that in the civil rights movement that were part of that 20-year period, and just any brief comment you can and how important you felt it was not only for you personally, but for our nation. The Montgomery Bus Boycott. EC (00:17:21): Well, the Montgomery Bus boycott. I was barrel as an infant pretty much at that point. I read about it as an adult or as a young man I suppose. But we are talking in about (19)50s now. I would have been three or four years old. And so in terms of my having any consciousness of that happening at the time, I had absolutely none. I was just way too young for that. SM (00:17:51): And that would include also the Brown versus Board of Education decision, and- EC (00:17:54): Well, same thing. SM (00:17:55): Little Rock Nine. EC (00:17:55): Yeah. I was a bit older when Little Rock Nine occurred, of course, but still, I was the age of six, seven, eight, nine, not really consistently reading the newspaper at that time. We would probably have to get out of the (19)50s. SM (00:18:16): Yeah, they- EC (00:18:17): Get to a point where I would be aware of the conflict that is swirled around the whole issue of civil rights. SM (00:18:26): The other ones are when you were 13 and up, and that is the March on Washington (19)63, Freedom Summer in (19)64. And certainly the terrible tragedy of Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman being killed. Were you aware of those events as of 13, 14-year-old? EC (00:18:45): That is interesting. I am sure I was aware in some vague way, and clearly the March Washington was a huge event and I would have been, what? 12 at the time that took place. I am sure I was aware of it, but looking back, I cannot say I have a cautious memory of what I was thinking at that time. I am certain I was not aware of. I am certain it was part of a lot of things I was beginning to be aware of that were happening around me. I remember realizing somewhere along the way, or at least concluding somewhere along the way, that the South was a very ugly place full of ugly, bigoted people. And I think really that was an opinion that was shaped by the news event at the time. But I cannot say if you go incident by incident, I did not know anybody who went down to Washington, yeah for the march on Washington. I did not know anybody who was involved with the with freedom rights, I mean, was a poor kid from a poor community on the west side of Chicago. The people I know were not doing those things. They were basically just trying to make it. And so I cannot say that any of those events shaped me in the way that they would have shaped me if I was five or 10 years older. I cannot say that any of those had a huge impression on me. The first discreet event of the (19)60s that I can remember making a huge impression on me other than the riots themselves, which had a huge impact on me because that was my community that was being torn apart. Other than that, the first event of the (19)60s was as you can say really, really shook me was Martin Luther King's assassination. SM (00:20:47): Yeah, that is on my- EC (00:20:47): - [inaudible] of (19)68. SM (00:20:52): And certainly MLK's assassination, certainly the over representation of African Americans who served in the Vietnam War was well documented at that time. And then Dr. King's Vietnam speech back in 1967, and then of course, the rise of the Black Panthers. Your thoughts on those? EC (00:21:16): Well, the Black Panthers I was aware of, and because they were in the west side of Chicago that was and my introduction to them was that all of a sudden these people appeared. And again, I do not remember exactly what level of how intimate my knowledge was, but I do remember being told, I think by friends of mine, that there was this conflict between the gangs on the south side and what I was coming, the big gang on the south side was something called August of the Black Peace Stone Nation, which is started off as, there is a Blackstone Rangers. And this may be apocryphal or may not be, but I do. But I do remember being told as a teenager that the Black Panthers were planning to set up shop on the South side, and that the Black Peace Stone Nation told them, no, that was their turf, that was their territory, and they were not going to make way for another gang. So I remember that dispute, at least as I understood it at the time, having taken place. And the rise of the Black Panthers happened to coincide with a time when I was starting college. And so I was very much aware of them by that time. And there were people I knew who had links to the Black Panthers, and so I was aware of them. I admired them in a certain way. I felt they certainly dressed again pretty cool, their leather jackets and whatnot. I liked their attitude in terms of their being a standup group who were going to not take much of anything from anybody. I remember when we're talking about early college years by this point, and at that point, I was very much aware of all these things that were going on. And I do remember of reading Eldridge Cleavers. Was it Soul on Ice? SM (00:23:30): Yep. Soul on Ice. EC (00:23:32): Somewhere back then. And being disappointed in Eldridge Cleaver, because I realized that not only was he a rapist, which I knew that he was a rapist, but I had assumed he had sufficient political consciousness that he had transcended that. And at some point, Soul on Ice becomes a defend of rape as a political act, which I thought was just absurd. So reading that affected the way that I felt about the Panthers, I had no respect for him after reading that and began to think maybe the Panthers were not this noble organization that I had assumed they were. SM (00:24:23): What is amazing about the Black Panthers, and when I have talked about and interviewed other people, they say, you are dealing with some major personalities here that are different. You have got Elders Cleaver, you have got Kathleen Cleaver, you have got Bobby Seal, you have got Huey Newton, you have got Stokely Carmichael, you have got H. Rep Brown. You have got, I got Elaine Brown. EC (00:24:45): Yeah, Elaine- SM (00:24:46): Dave Hilliard. And you see, you are dealing with a lot of different- EC (00:24:49): I am not sure Stokely Carmichael was, there were actually a number of the Panthers. Certainly it was not temporary. SM (00:24:57): Right. I think he did become a panther. EC (00:24:58): It is possible. You obviously studying this, I am not, but I do not remember him being very prominent with the Panthers because he became prominent as another kind of character. But yeah, and certainly Huey Newton was a totally different character than Eldridge Cleaver mean, then they ended up having a huge dispute at the end of the day. And by this time, we were getting into the years. So I was a journalist, and so I have never really covered the Panthers as a story, but I did know some of the characters. At one point, I interviewed Bobby Seal at another point, Kathleen Cleaver I interviewed. So I knew some of these people were at least in passing as a journalist and had impressions of them and was certainly around at the time when the big split occurred between the so-called East Coast and West Coast Panthers, and the Eldridge faction and the Huey Newton faction. And remember, they were saying very ugly things about one another. So that was also part of my reassessment of who and what the Panthers were. But I remember initially just being one, attracted to them and thinking that they were very interesting. Two, respecting the fact they were willing to stand up to police violence, things of that nature. Three, respecting the fact that they were not at this time a sort of black militancy. They were a group that was not racist in the sense that they were willing to embrace various races as long as you agree with their program. But three, think that there were some individuals who were truly screwed up, who were involved with them. And Eldridge Cleavers being first on that list of people who thought were totally screwed up clearly if the history of Houston Newton, there was a history of somebody who was not terribly well adjusted either, and who did all kinds of things. So at the end of the day, I had a mixed assessment of the Black Panthers, but I was certainly aware by that time being a 16, 17, 18, 19, when they were in their heyday, being very much aware of them, there was a sense among a lot of people, and it was, that included, I passaged, but a whole lot of folks who were activists at that time. There was a sense that we were in throes of revolution, that something huge was on the verge of happening in the United States, that we were about to overthrow one system and have it replaced by another. And I remember lots of people getting swept up in that sense. I was not one of them. I just never thought that [inaudible] analysis made a whole lot of sense. It was on target, but I certainly recall it. SM (00:28:19): Well, one of the things that also was taking place at this time was what was happening in the prisons. We all know what happened with Angela Davis and the murder, I guess at George Jackson in San Quentin. So that was a big issue. I know on college campuses, we were talking about that all the time. And because when I was in graduate school, I actually went to Mansfield Reformatory and was there for two semesters and could not believe how prisoners are being treated. It was a maximum-security facility in Ohio. EC (00:28:51): Well, there were a lot of issues. There were not simply the prisons, it was the politicization in a way, and then the incarceration of people. Or in effect political crime. And it was (19)69. I recall very clearly when you had the murders of Mark Clark, that Hampton in Chicago and was at that point, I was very active in those student politics and was one of the leaders of the protests that we had at the University of Illinois Chicago at the time, which stem from that shooting. Which seems to us then, and actually being now looking back, have been a political assassination. So there was a lot of, among folks I knew, including myself, a lot of anger and outrage and those kinds of things happening. And certainly as we look back, we did not know through the extent of the time how involved the FBI was in monitoring these groups and provocateur times in these groups and even... EC (00:30:03): ... and been a provocateur at times in these groups. And even, obviously, been a provocateur in times of his relationship with Martin Luther King Jr. All of that was going on. So it was much broader than just prisons I think. It was the youth of the arms of the criminal justice system to attempt to repress this movement in many respects. And I remember being aware of that. I remember being angry about that. I think I was much less aware of what was going on in prisons in general. SM (00:30:41): I know that Attica was one of the biggest events. I think it was in (19)71. And of course, that was a tragedy from the get-go, and that was a follow-up to what was happening at San Quentin with Angela Davis and so forth with George Jackson. But I find it interesting that there is a book out now, and you have probably written about this many times, about the fact that the Jim Crow of 2010 is actually what is happening with the African-American male in our prisons. EC (00:31:15): Well, I do not accept the term because I think Jim Crow was very different than what is happening with prisons. But I do think that is a national tragedy. And I do think that, in many ways, our criminal justice system is racialized. Why do not I think it is Jim Crow? Because Jim Crow, you had everybody who was black in a community who was made to act in a certain way because of laws that mandated made certain behaviors. That is not what is happening with the prisons. But I think we do have a huge percentage issue now of African-American males, and also a very large percentage of Latino males for that matter, whose life options are totally destroyed having to do with their involvement in the criminal justice system. So I think it is criminal. But I think that one of the problems with just the way that people in general tend to look at things is that we tend to want to always compare one event to another event that we are familiar with as if they are the same thing. I think that the over incarceration of people of color and people in general in this country is a national tragedy. I do not think it is Jim Crow, and I do not think it particularly adds to the analysis to call it Jim Crow. SM (00:32:41): Right. You are aware of that book that is out now? EC (00:32:47): Yes. SM (00:32:47): Yeah. It is... EC (00:32:47): [inaudible] it is fascinating, yeah. SM (00:32:49): Yeah. It is doing quite well. EC (00:32:50): Yeah. SM (00:32:50): You are a gifted writer, and you already mentioned the fact that [inaudible] you read when you were in college. What are the books and writers who influenced you as a young man? Not only as a journalist, but as a person who covered some of these issues in the United States? Did you read James Baldwin, Ralph Ellison? EC (00:33:13): Well, you named the two that had the most impact on me when I was coming up and discovering my voice as a writer. I was a big admirer of Baldwin in particular. I mean, he wrote clearly more than Ellison did, but I was a huge admirer of his and read everything of his I could find. And I remember it was probably The Fire Next Time, I think may be the first thing of his that I read, which explained what was going on in the streets. And in a way that, for the first time, made sense to me. Certainly, a Black Boy... Not a Black Boy, a Native Son rather. When I read that, I was just blown away by how beautiful of a writer Ralph Ellison was. By his ability to sort of capture that story, that voice, that time. So both of those were... I mean, I also in that era remember being very impressed by Hermann Hesse, who I just thought was a very interesting writer. But it was really Baldwin was number one. So much so that initially I remember thinking that maybe I did not need to go to college because Baldwin did not go to college. And he did very well as a writer, so why should I waste my time going to college. I remember thinking about that at the time. SM (00:34:50): Did you ever have a chance to read Harry Edwards' book, Black Students? EC (00:34:55): I do not think I have read that book, no. SM (00:34:59): Yeah, because that was very popular back in (19)71. Of course, Harry's the one that encouraged the students- EC (00:35:08): [inaudible] I know who he is. But I do not remember reading that book, so I do not think it was from the books that I read. SM (00:35:09): Yeah. The other ones were, well, I do not know if [inaudible] was Michael Harrington, The Other America. EC (00:35:15): Oh, yeah. No, I read that at some point, but I cannot say that it was a huge... SM (00:35:22): Of course. EC (00:35:22): ... an influence on me in terms of journalism or any other way. I just thought that he was doing important work, and was one of those things that I read. SM (00:35:32): The other one that seemed to have an influence on some boomers is LeRoi Jones because he was a beat writer and... EC (00:35:40): I mean, I have read LeRoi Jones and I read some of his things- SM (00:35:43): Amiri Baraka. EC (00:35:45): I mean, for my taste, at the time at least, he was a bit more avant-garde than I was. And he just did not grab me in the same way. And then I remember also... Yeah, so I just did not have the same sense of Jones or Amiri Baraka as he later became. I mean, I was influenced by some of the Chicago set of writers. Don Lee, who later became Haki Madhubuti, I remember being impressed by. And some of the other writers who I got to know in Chicago as a young man. But as I said, I mean, for me by far in terms of convincing me that I could become a writer, I think it was Baldwin. I mean, and reading him that, okay, this guy is doing something I think I can do. SM (00:36:42): Do you like the term boomer? EC (00:36:47): I mean, it is obviously a term that is been coined and accepted widely for people in a certain demographic, so I do not have a particular problem with it, but yeah. SM (00:37:01): What is the first thing that comes to your mind when you hear someone talk about the boomer generation? EC (00:37:07): I do not think that certain traits come to my mind. What comes to mind is the post-World War II generation and the 20 to 25 years beyond that. And just because of the fact that so many of these people peaked... Well, peaked is not the right word, but came of age in the (19)60s and in that era. It certainly evokes thoughts of the (19)60s and the cultural transformation in the country that occurred then. SM (00:37:46): The next few questions deal with the Moynihan Report from (19)65. And then recently, Rich Lowry from the... EC (00:37:57): The New York Times. SM (00:38:00): Yeah, the National Review commented on, actually, only three months ago on the Moynihan Report. But I want this in the record, so if you would bear with me, I just want to read this and get your comments on it. And that is that when the Moynihan Report came out, these are very important things it says here. "In the decade they began with school desegregations, decision of the Supreme Court, and ended with the passage of the Civil Rights Act of (19)64. The demand of Negro Americans for full recognition of their civil rights was finally met. In this new period, the expectations of Negro Americans will go beyond civil rights. Being Americans, they will now expect that in the near future equal opportunities for them as a group will produce roughly equal results as compared with other groups. This is not going to happen, nor will it happen for generations to come unless a new and special effort is made." And there were two reasons that Moynihan wrote for putting this report together. First, the racist virus in the American bloodstream still afflicts us in (19)65. And then second, three centuries of sometimes unimaginable mistreatment have taken their toll on the Negro people. Then that says here what is an interesting is the report that Lowry says that Moynihan was basically shut out. At some point, the report was being listened to, but then as the war in Vietnam was raging on and on and there were disagreements over policy and so forth, the Moynihan Report went to the back burner. And this is what I would like you to respond to from the original report, if that was written by Moynihan. "The gap between Negro and most other groups in American society is widening. Is that the Negro family and the urban ghettos is crumbling. A middle class group has managed to save itself, but for vast numbers of unskilled, poorly educated city working class, the fabric of conventional social relationships has all but disintegrated. So long as this situation persists, the cycle of poverty and disadvantage will continue to repeat itself." And then he ends in this section by saying, "A national effort is required that will give unity of purpose to the many activities of the federal government in this area directed to a new kind of national goal, the establishment of a stable negro family structure. This would be a new departure for federal policy. But almost certainly offers the only possibility of resolving in our time what is after all the nation's oldest, and most intransigent, and now its most dangerous social problem." And then he ends by saying, "What Gunnar Myrdal said in An American Dilemma remains true today. America's free to choose whether the Negro shall remain her liability or become her opportunity." And- EC (00:41:12): I mean, I think what is interesting about the Moynihan Report, there are two things. I mean, one is that it became this political hot potato in the sense that progressive social scientists, African-American activists, and other people attacked it because they thought it was blaming the victim. They thought it was an attack and some sort of... And he used the word mythology in it, though you did not read that part. They thought it was an attack on the black community just because of the language that he used because [inaudible] the things that he described. I mean, I think the other thing that is interesting is that the trends that he was worried about. Two things about those. I mean, one is his idea of the rate of children being born out of wedlock, et cetera. If you look at the numbers he was reporting at the time for African-Americans, they are pretty close to what the numbers are for white now. So what he was really giving voice too, even though he did not know it himself, was an emerging trend in society, not just in African-American communities. But what's also interesting about that report is that in some ways it was prescient. I mean, he did in fact put his finger on some real problems. And I think that because of the language that he used, because of the times that he wrote this report in. Having less to do actually with the Vietnam War, I suspect, than with domestic politics. The message was never really paid attention to. I am not sure if it had been paid attention to, that the tools were in place to do anything about it at any rate. But I think if you set aside just some of the rhetoric of the time, which is difficult to do, and just look at what he was trying to do, it was actually an impressive work of scholarship. SM (00:43:11): Yeah, he wrote that. It is interesting. I was reading background. He was sitting downstairs and he did it on a typewriter. EC (00:43:21): Well, everybody wrote on a typewriter back then. SM (00:43:21): Yeah. And only 100 of the reports actually were ever handed out. It was not widely distributed. This is how Lowry, Lowry wrote this three months ago, and this is his commentary on what he considers the failure of the African-American community. He said, "Moynihan had talked about and he believed that the richest inheritance any child can have is a stable, loving, disciplined family life. He wanted to create a sense of urgency about the fact that black children were disproportionately denied this inheritance." And then the black out of wedlock births had increased from 18 percent in 1950 to 22, 23.6 percent in (19)63. And he saw that as a weakness of the family structure. And he also linked it up as unemployment fell, out of wedlock births continued to rise, illegitimacy had developed a dynamic of its own. Then the Johnson administration- EC (00:44:17): Right, right. So what is Lowry's bottom line? SM (00:44:20): The bottom line is that he feels that the African-American family has... The illegitimacy rate is skyrocketing today in America. He says here, "The black out of wedlock birth rate is-" EC (00:44:35): I mean, it means two things. I mean, one, just as a matter of statistics, clearly, we have had a huge rise in the out of wedlock births. Particularly in the black community, but also in the white community. I mean, my problem with an analysis from someone like Lowry is [inaudible]. First of all, he is an ideologue. So I do not take anything [inaudible] someone like that says seriously because he is an ideologue trying to make an ideological point. So as a scholar, I just have no respect for that. But it is true that even ideologues make isolated facts that are true. And it is true that there has been a huge increase in out of wedlock births. That is occurred for a whole set of reasons. But the problem of the right-wing ideological analysis, the problem I have with that, aside from the fact that it is based in ideology, which means that it is not a thoughtful analysis. Is essentially that it comes from a place where people think there is a white community and a black community that are totally separate from one another, that have no impact on one another. And that there are these trends that spring up just out of the blue that take place in this so-called different black community. And that is just absurd. We have in America, we have trends that occur and they are certainly more prominent in poor communities and communities of color in some cases, in other communities in other cases. But something that begins with an idea that the black community did this, the black community did that, the black community ought to do this, is so racist and stupid that it is not worth responding to. SM (00:46:28): Yeah. It is interesting because of the right wing or the conservatives have also said that talking about the entire generation, all the boomer generation, the breakdown of the American society, most of our problems today center around the generation that came of age after World War II in the (19)60s and (19)70s. The drug- EC (00:46:49): Well, again, I mean, I am not terribly inclined to engage stupid analysis. Because at the end of the day, this is just stupid stuff. It comes out of ideologues who sort of have some idea that they could go back to some kind of society they imagined happened. Or what would have occurred if there had not been the so-called cultural revolution. That is just dumb. SM (00:47:15): Why do you feel that the right or conservatives continue today to always, what I call a... There is a backlash. The constant backlash against any progress that was seen to be made in the (19)60s and (19)70s. It is ever present. You hear it today on Fox constantly. EC (00:47:38): I think people are... And you have to ask these people too. SM (00:47:43): And I have. EC (00:47:45): And I doubt that they really know because I doubt they have that ability to reflect on their own psychology that clearly. But my suspicion is that you have a lot of people who were in effect very comfortable with the way that things used to be. And do not like the fact that they got shaken up. And in addition to that, you have a lot of people who have a point of ideology, do not like the fact that government got into the role of trying to help poor people. That government got into the business of trying to integrate society. That government got into the business of doing things that they would prefer the government have not done. And I think a lot of it stems from there. I mean, I think that Barack Obama is right when he makes the analysis that there are a lot of people still fighting the war, so the 1960s. But that sort of coincides with my point, which is that we are shaped by the era that in which we were raised. And I think that a lot of folks who came of age at a certain time, they have a certain analysis of that and they just did not like what was happening to their society. And I think you see echoes of that in a sense in the Tea Party movement now where their whole model is we are going to take back America. Well, take it back to what? Thing is there is never a clear answer about that. SM (00:49:19): Yes. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? And what was the watershed- EC (00:49:25): [inaudible] SM (00:49:25): What was the watershed moment of that whole era? EC (00:49:32): I think there were lots of moments there. And again, and not to be difficult, but I am just not sure that I can frame it that way. I mean, there were fairly lots of things that happened. I mean, there was the assassination of John F. Kennedy. The decision of Johnson to resign. The Black Sunday event in Selma, the passage of the Voting Rights, the Civil Rights Act. The so-called Summer of Love. I mean, there were all these huge events that took place in the (19)60s. And then there were the riots. There was the Watts riots in (19)65. There were the huge riots that broke out in the wake of the assassination of King. There was the [inaudible] commission and his report, which for the first time ever pointed at white racism as a cause of a problem of a serious nature in the black community. You have a government entity sort of making that analysis. I am not sure, and I know historians love to do this and journalists love to do this, love to pick one point and one thing and say it was this, this, this and that. There were lots of things. But I think they also built on things that happened in the (19)60s. I mean, you would not have had the segregation banish we had in the (19)60s had it not been for the decision in (19)54 with Brown v. Board. You would not have had that if you had not had the cases that were originally brought in... that were the predecessor cases they had brought in the (19)40s. So there is a lot of stuff sort of leading into the (19)60s. And there was a, in that sense, sort of continuum. I think they just sort of peaked in the (19)60s in some way. And you had what seemed to be just one huge change after another taking place, which hit people in a huge way. And dependent upon what your interests were at the time, I think the (19)60s event that shook you is different. I mean, for some people it is obviously a lot of the stuff around the Vietnam War. For other people, it is a lot of stuff around civil rights. For other people, it is a lot of stuff around the rise of the hippies and the Summer of Love and things that went on of that nature. I think it just depends. I do not think there is an answer for that that sort of applies to everything and everybody. SM (00:52:22): Do you feel the Beats had any role at all in the anti-authoritarian attitudes that many boomers had when they started going to high school and college in the (19)60s? Because the Beats were members of the Silent Generation. And their writings, even though they were not large in number, their books were well read and they were anti-authoritarian in just about every way. EC (00:52:50): Well, I mean, there were certainly the Beats, the hipsters. I mean, they were certainly a sort of precursor to the hippies. And did they create this set of movements in the (19)60s? No, I do not think so. I mean, I think the movements of the (19)60s were [inaudible]. I mean, I think they gave some kind of intellectual context for them. I mean, I do not think what happened was that you had a generation that all of a sudden became anti-establishment and then started acting out. I think you had huge events that had an impact on people. I mean, you did have these huge battles taking place over civil rights. You did have the Vietnam War, which was directly affecting lots of young men who were not all that crazy about going to fight in a war in a country that they had no problem with. You also had the introduction of birth control, at least a new kind of birth control. And therefore a sort of sense of sexual liberation that had not existed before. So all of these things sort of took place. And I think that at the end of the day had more impact than the published writings of a few writers. SM (00:54:34): I think you have already answered my next question too because it was really getting into some of the things that well-known people had said. Quotes that are linked to people. I will mention these. Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." John Kennedy, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Robert Kennedy, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." Then you have the, "We shall overcome," which was the civil rights feelings of the South. And you had the Timothy Leary, "Tune on, turn on, dropout," kind of attitude. And then you had what Muhammad Ali said, which I think was a very important influence on many, many boomers when he said, "I am not going to Vietnam to kill little yellow babies when we are not taking care of little black babies at home." And then Bobby Muller, when he came back from Vietnam saying, "I learned that America is not always the good guy." So would you say that all these kinds of quotes are really... Just to what you were saying, it is part of our very being. They influenced a lot of different people in different ways. EC (00:55:49): Well, I mean, I think the quotes came out of the times. I do not think the times came out of the quote is basically my point. I think the reason these quotes resonated with people were because you did have a huge war in Vietnam. I mean, obviously, if it had not been, Muhammad Ali would never have said what he said. The reason Malcolm X's quote resonated was because you had a huge battle going on over basic rights for African-Americans at the time. Otherwise, what he said would have made no sense. So I think that that... And the same thing with, "We shall overcome." I mean, I think that these sorts of things stem out of huge sort of social events that were occurring. So as I was saying in an answer to your previous question, I do not think that the words were the things that drove the event. I think the events drove the words. SM (00:56:50): Very good. I am going to change my tape here. EC (00:56:58): [inaudible] might be a little bit of snow, but I do not think it is going to affect anything serious. SM (00:57:04): Could you discuss, this is very important, when you look at college campuses in the 1960s, late (19)60s and certainly early (19)70s, the term Black Power was everywhere. And it was all over the country too. And we saw it. I remember seeing a clip recently, Kathleen Cleaver explaining why she had an afro on a college campus. And it is tremendous, it is only 15 seconds. But what was the purpose of Black Power? What were its goals and the ultimate impact that it had on people at that time? Because it was a little bit beyond what Dr. King and Bayard Rustin were thinking about when they were involved in the Civil Rights Movement. What was Black Power? EC (00:57:51): I think, well, Black Power meant a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But I mean, I think at its essence, it was an articulation of a desire of to take control of their own destiny. To not be reliant on either the goodwill or the bad intention of white Americans. And to strike out an individual... Not individual, but a collective political path that could lead to empowerment of black people. I mean, that in its essence was what the idea of Black Power was about. Now people have very, very different ideas of what that meant. You have the Nation of Islam, the black Muslims, who thought that it basically meant having an independent nation totally separate from White America. You had other folks, some who were involved in movement politics, who thought that what that meant was black people taking charge of all leadership roles and movement activities, and moving white people aside. You had the other folks who thought it meant something else. So I am not sure you can look beyond the general sort of ideas of it, say it meant one thing. But I think what it came out of was this sense of... I think it was very much a generational sense. It came out of this sense that white people basically could not be trusted. And that the destiny of African-America, of African-Americans needed to be an African-American path. SM (00:59:43): It's interesting because I was at Ohio State in (19)71 and that was very powerful on our campus. And in the Ohio Union, African-American students and white students were having separate dances, and they could not even go to the section of the union where the dances were. There were a lot of issues there at the time. And some of the students- SM (01:00:02): ... issues there at the time, and some of the students went off to Linda McKinley High School to get guards for their dances without consulting the campus. What is interesting here is if you look at the study of Kent State University, you do not see any African American students protesting there. You read some of the books on Kent State, and there was a split happening between African American students and white students, particularly in the anti- war movement, that... EC (01:00:30): Well, there was not a split that happened. SM (01:00:30): Well, so... EC (01:00:36): I think that reflected a society that was intensely segregated, where African Americans... And we are still dealing with this. We are still dealing with this. It's not as if, prior to the eruption of the so-called Black Power Movement, you had an integrated society of Blacks and whites and they were doing lots of things together. That was never the case. So, it is hardly surprising that when you had a movement to bring up, they reflected the segregated nature of society. So, of course, we had white leaders; you had Black leaders, you had white activism and Black activism, and even around civil rights. Yes, they did come together and there was a huge effort to form some sort of multiracial coalition. But this, again, goes back to where we began this discussion, which is I think we are very much creatures of what shapes us. There were very few white Americans at that time, and also not that many Black Americans, who came up in anything remotely resembling an integrated setting or integrated society. There was this very strong sense that there were just two communities, and I think for many people, it was just impossible to bridge that gap, even among many people who considered themselves [inaudible]. SM (01:01:59): I think you are right because when you talk about activism of the (19)60s, you are only talking 5 percent, possibly, of the entire generation of 74 million that were even activists. EC (01:02:09): Yeah. And even among the activists, I think they carried a lot of the racial baggage of their generation. SM (01:02:19): If you look at the studies, though, of the (19)60s, you see that when the African American students protested the lunch counters in the South, many white students all over the country empathized and protested in various cities that same situation. Then you had a Freedom Summer where quite a few white students went South and risked their lives, and you had the many of them coming back to Berkeley at the free speech movement. So, there was that linkage between... EC (01:02:50): No, I am not saying there was not a linkage. I think there had to be a linkage. I mean, my God, you have people fighting for civil rights. How could they not consciously try to make some linkage? But I am saying that despite that, what I would call a real sort of beyond race, post-racial set of conditions never existed even within the movement. SM (01:03:16): Good point. Could you describe Boomer Generation now, born between (19)46 and (19)64, the oldest is 64 this year, and the youngest is 49. Could you describe, in your own words, the America of the following periods that Boomers have been alive? Just general comments about the periods, for all Americans and then secondly, were African Americans might think of this period as well, the period 1946 to 1960. EC (01:03:53): I guess the question is just too broad for me to get my head around. It's just too broad. I mean, I am not sure what you are looking for. SM (01:04:03): Well, when you think of that period in America, (19)46 to (19)60, just a couple of words that to describe it. EC (01:04:10): Well, I do not think of that as one period because if you think of (19)46, you are thinking, at least what I am thinking of, is post-war: The nation is still sort of putting itself together after that. You are thinking civil rights is very few people's agenda at that time. You are thinking of an era where, by and large, segregation is accepted as the way of life. If you go and move up into the (19)50s, and then you are obviously talking about an awakening that occurred at some point, driven largely by the events in Montgomery and elsewhere in the South, where all of a sudden, the country begins to question collectively what in the hell they were doing and what should be the status quo? Again, driven by... And your cutoff date was the early (19)60s? SM (01:05:27): Yeah. I had the (19)61 to (19)70 period. EC (01:05:31): Yeah. I think it was a different period. I think that post-war, and I was not around then, but I have read about that period. I think we were adjusting to being in a post-war situation. There was a certain celebration of having made the world safe for democracy. I think there was a huge unawareness of what was going on in our own backyard. There was a backlash against many of the Black troops who came back and were expecting to be treated as equals or at least hoped they would be, and were relegated immediately to the back of the bus. There were, in some cases, violence against the Black soldiers who had the temerity to demand to be treated as equal human beings. You had just a sense of incomprehension among white Americans that Black folk would be interested or entitled to any treatment other than the sort of treatment that had been meted out for years and years. Then you had, as I said, the awakening of the beginning in the middle (19)50s when there were all these huge protests and the rise of the civil rights movement, when at least thinking Americans, and in this instance, I am thinking of white thinking Americans, had to say, "My, God. Something is wrong here. Let us take a look at this and see if we can do something about that." Then the (19)60s is very different. I mean, being in the (19)60s, you had a country that had been wrestling for some years with the demand for equality, but you also had an international community that was taking interest at that point. That was, in various sectors, condemning the United States for articulating a concept of equality, but yet not being able to live up to that itself. SM (01:07:54): Yeah. That period, (19)61 to (19)70 and then (19)71 to (19)80, I guess some people think there is a linkage between those two, that the early (19)70s was basically a continuation of the (19)60s. EC (01:08:08): Well, as you probably could surmise from what I have said all along, I think everything is a continuation of something else. My mind does not work that way that it was this discrete little period that was not connected to the period before that. I just do not think history works that way. I do not think people work that way. I think that we are always sort of building on what came before. SM (01:08:33): Would you say, though, that when you start getting into the 1980s and Ronald Reagan, that is the period of backlash? EC (01:08:41): Well, there were periods of backlash all along the way. I mean, when whites effectively marched out of the Democratic Party after the Johnson years, that was a backlash. That was a huge backlash, certainly against civil rights. I do not think you had any period of struggle where there was not backlash, but certainly I think that by the time Reagan got into office, you had, I guess, a national mandate for a certain bit of politics. SM (01:09:29): Yeah. Of course, we talk about the culture wars. We have seen them on university campuses, at least I have seen them my whole life, for over 30 years. That certainly is a quality that defines what America's all about in that period. As a journalist, you mentioned it early on, but have you seen a racism and prejudice during your years in the profession? You told me about the early years when very few African Americans, but now as... And I know Asso Moore real well. I have known Asso for 30 years, and he shared so many things about what happened with him when he came up. But once the African American journalists were a very important part of the scene, you still see the subtleness? Basically, what I am saying, as a journalist, have you seen racism or prejudice during your years in the profession? Just your thoughts on that. EC (01:10:28): Well, I think anybody who is honest would have to answer of course you have. But again, that goes back [inaudible] to my personal experience. But I think that Americans have this dopey idea that people are raised with a certain set of beliefs, and they come up holding to these things, and all of a sudden they get enlightenment and, boom, they go from being racist to not racist. That is not any equivalent human being that I know of. I think that if people are brought up and they always keep a lot of the beliefs that people are brought up with unless they are some extraordinary kind of person. So, it is impossible for me, just intellectually to conceive of a profession where Blacks were totally excluded; it was considered natural to do interviews about communities but not interview anybody Black; where the Black community was looked at as some foreign and hostile place; but then, boom, you get the civil rights and all these people suddenly start seeing things totally differently. No, of course not. Has racism become unacceptable in society? Yes, it has. Has it become a much more subtle... Of course it has. Personally, I think things have reached the point where there is really little to be gained by calling people racist because nobody in this country considers themselves racist anymore. Everybody considers themselves enlightened, even if they do not happen to have any Black friends, even if they do not happen to believe that Black people are capable of doing certain things. They still do not think they are racist. So, I think the whole idea of calling people racist does not make a whole lot of sense. But do you see things happen all the time in society that are rooted in people's racial preconceptions? Yes, of course you do, and of course I have. SM (01:12:35): It is interesting, Elvis, that the subtleness is the adjective that now describes racism or sexism or homo... There is a subtleness, supposedly, in our society. It is what really Dr. King, if you read his writings, that he feared the most. He feared the fence-sitter he did, where people, I do not know where you stand at an issue. He could deal with a bigot because he knew who they were. Obviously, his supporters. But the fence-sitter was the one that he was most afraid of. And that is always stuck with me. So, in my years in higher ed, when I see people that just say nothing, I think of Dr. King, and they're a bunch of fence-sitters. You got to say something. EC (01:13:20): Well, I am aware of that, and I think you're right in your interpretation of what King said, but I am making a different point, which is this: Even people who declare themselves not racist and who therefore would not consider themselves fence-sitters are not necessarily free of racial prejudice. I do not know how many social events I have gone to organized by white journalists, some of them terribly important, where it becomes very clear that they do not have any Black people in their lives. They just do not invite people. I remember years ago... What was it? Maybe 10, 15 years ago, when Paul Delaney left the New York Times. He was the senior-ranking Black journalist at the time. There was a party given for him by one of the top editors there. I remember being struck with the fact that the only Black people at that party were the three of us who Paul had invited. Now, from my way of thinking, it is not possible to operate in a world where you do not have any Black friends, do not see any Black people, do not think you have anything in common with Black people, and yet at the same time, to think that you are totally free of racial prejudice and preconceptions. I just do not think that is possible. SM (01:14:54): Remember when we invited you to West Chester, you had written your book Nation of Strangers, which, a great book. EC (01:15:00): Thank you. SM (01:15:02): I passed it on to my niece to read a couple years ago, and she read it. She liked it, too. I am just using this: Do you think we are still a nation of strangers, here in the year 2010, with the divisiveness between groups and so forth? EC (01:15:22): I think we are becoming less so generationally. I think that the analyses that I would have made, certainly when it comes to racism and ethnic groups and the estrangement that I would have made 20 years ago is not quite the one I would make today. I think that people, and particularly younger people, are becoming much more comfortable than folks in the Boomer Generation and certainly the folks in the Silent Generation with reaching across the so-called racial divide. So, I think we're evolving, and I think a lot of it has to do with the transformation in generations. SM (01:16:12): Do you feel the media has done a good job over the years covering the events that shaped the Boomers? I say this because there is a recent book out by Professor Young at Lehigh University, I am just starting to read it, which basically says that the media has portrayed the (19)60s and (19)70s in more of a sensationalistic way, concentrating oftentimes on the bad or the highly controversial over the serious and highly analytical substance types of approach. What are your thoughts on how it has been covered? EC (01:16:47): Well, I think the reality is that that is just a consequence of the media doing what it always does, which is to try to sum up things, which is to try to point to what it considers something that is most significant, which is the focus on something that is attention-grabbing, which is another word for sensational, and which is to try to find trends whether or not they're there. That is sort of the conventional approach to journalism in this country. So, of course, I think it is going to not be a balanced or fair view because that would be sort of saying that you expect to see a portrayal of an average, ordinary sort of society by reading the front page. Well, the front page is full of people who get shot, full of people who do awful things, is full of people who are engaged in great political battles. That is not what most people's normal life is like. SM (01:18:01): Yeah. One of the things of the (19)60s, and again, well, I want to make sure it crossed every ethnic group, and that was the generation gap. Did you have a generation gap in your family, between you and your parents on the issue of the war or on any of the social issues that you got involved in as a young person? EC (01:18:21): Well, I am not sure I would call it a generation gap, but yeah, my parents and I saw things quite differently. But I am not sure that... I think the events were more colorful back then, in some ways, than they are for some generations. But I am hard-pressed to think of a generation that does not see things differently than their parents in some way. I think my parents did not understand how I could admire at least some things about a group like the Black Panthers, who they thought were just sort of thugs. But I think the first time I brought a white friend home, actually, well, a white friend home who was female, at least, my mother just thought this was crazy because she was a product of the segregated South and did not understand how it was even conceivable to have a white friend who was female without being worried about terrible consequences. And so, her reality was a different reality. So, there is a generation gap, but certainly we looked at things different because of our generation. SM (01:19:47): Yeah. You remember that Life Magazine cover that had the young man with the long hair with his father pointing a finger at the sun? EC (01:19:55): Yeah. SM (01:19:55): They are talking about the generation gap. Then the book, The Wounded Generation, Jim Webb brings up in a conversation with James Fallows and Bobby Mueller and Phil Caputo, that the real gap, yeah, it was between parents and their kids, but the real gap was between those who went to war and served their country in Vietnam and those who did not, what he called the intragenerational gap. Do you agree with that? EC (01:20:26): You are going to get the same answer from me on a lot of these questions, which is those kinds of analyses is just way too pat. SM (01:20:36): That came right out of a transcript from a... EC (01:20:37): Right. Right. I mean, as I said, yeah, there were differences obviously. I know people who went to Vietnam; I know people who did not, and in some cases, there was not any sort of gap at all in any meaningful sense. But sure, the guys who went to Vietnam had a very different experience than the ones who did not. Part of the reason a lot of people did not go to Vietnam, it depends on what year you're talking about, the younger folks because they got better lottery numbers; the older folks, because they were better at playing the system. So, yeah, sure. There was a gap there, but it started off with a gap, particularly if you had people who were gaming the system to stay away from the war and people who decided to go. So, you had a gap before they even went. SM (01:21:29): Right. I know we are getting almost to the end of our time here. I got just two questions left. One of them is dealing with the women's movement. The women's movement evolved out of the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement, and there's been at least a lot written about the apparent sexism that took place in both the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, which pushed women into their own movement. Are you in agreement with that? EC (01:21:58): Well, yes and no. I think that more out of the civil rights movement than the anti-war movement, in a sense that A Feminine Mistake was written in (19)63, as I recall. That was before the anti-war movement had really picked up any steam. That is, for me, where I would sort of put as the marker for the beginning of the modern feminist movement. I think it is as good a place as any. But I think clearly, when you had all of this talk about equality and you had all this movement for social equality, you were going to have women who looked at that and said, "My, goodness. Some of this applies to us, too." So, I would say much more out of the civil rights movement, which was in full-force by the time the women's movement began to take off, than the anti-war movement, which came a little bit later. SM (01:22:57): As a take-off of this question, do any of these movements of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, and I am talking about the environmental movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano, Native American, women's movement, do any of these mean something in 2011? Because others have commented, they are all kind of separate; they are all kind of into their own world now, and they seem like in the (19)60s and (19)70s they were together on many issues. EC (01:23:30): Well, I am not sure I would agree with that either. I mean, if you look at the very fact that the Mexican American Legal Defense Education Fund and the Puerto Rico Legal Defense Education Fund and American Legal Defense Fund, I mean they named themselves after the NAACP Legal Defense Fund. I mean, that was a very conscious decision. They were, in effect, copying what the NAACP had done in a very conscious way. Well, all these groups still exist. Some of them are still very prominently fighting. And there is a... What is it? The Conference for Civil Rights out of DC, which still is an umbrella group which tries to hold them all together. I do not think they have gone their separate ways. I think they are probably as much together in a sense as they ever were. Now, I think the larger question is whether the groups rooted in that time, and those groups are all rooted in that time; they were sort of formed around the civil rights era or shortly after it, how relevant they are to today's time, I think is the larger question, not whether they are still in cooperation. I think they still are. SM (01:24:52): Actually, this is a two-part question, and this is it. One of the things I have heard and read about over the years, and you have seen it on the news, is critical of the African American leadership today in America. How can you try to compare it with the era of the (19)50s and the (19)60s and the (19)70s, when you had Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer, Roy Wilkins and Whitney Young. I mean, John Lewis, even though he is still very important today as a congressman, but you have these very powerful, visible, respected, although some people did not like them that were racist, and trying to compare... There has been articles written that, "Where is the African American leadership today?" Have you thought about that or written about it? EC (01:25:45): Well, again, I think that is sort of a stupid place to begin in terms of the people who write that sort of stuff because, again, it has to do with my way of looking at the world. Martin Luther King did not just one fine day sort of spring out of nowhere and lead a movement. Martin Luther King was recruited for a movement that was already in process. The idea that a great man came along and totally changed everything that is happened before is so ahistorical, I do not know where to begin. The reason you had these larger-than-life figures is because there were larger-than-life issues that they were dealing with that were very clear, and they demanded the appearance of larger-than-life issues, so [inaudible] larger-than-life people who could embody them. You had certainly some very-very gifted people. I think the other thing you have to realize is that if you were an African American who was supremely talented and a great public speaker and had certain sort of skills in that era, you did not have a whole lot of options. So, you had a huge number of these people who were being, first of all, going into the church, and then you had the church funneling them into the movement. Not all of them. But a lot of these people sort of came that route. They did not have the option of becoming a lawyer on Wall Street. No big law firm was going to hire them. They did not have the option of working for some big corporation and becoming anything important. No corporation was going to have anything in a position. So, I think a few things you have to sort of just acknowledge: One is that if you were going to really shine, there were a limited number of areas wherein which you could shine. If you had talent, one of those areas was going to be the big movement of the day. I think the other thing though, as I was saying, is that times shape the people more than people shape the times as far as individuals go. Yes, all those people you name were supremely gifted individuals. And yes, they were courageous and they were insightful and they helped move us to a place where we needed to be moved. But the fact of the matter is if they had not, somebody else would have, because the times demanded that. SM (01:28:27): And in studying Bayard Rustin, we all know there would have been no Bayard Rustin without A. Philip Randolph. EC (01:28:32): Yeah. [inaudible]. Yeah. I would agree. SM (01:28:34): And what a great man he was. My last question is legacy. The best history books are often written 50 years after an era or an event. I know it is hard for you to probably to answer this, too, or to speculate, but what do you think historians and sociologists and writers will be saying about this generation, and I mean an all-inclusive generation, Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, every ethnic background you can imagine. What do you think they are going to say about the Boomer Generation once the last Boomer's passed? EC (01:29:10): Well, I think they will say that it was a generation that happened to be in America at a time when some huge events took place and, really, in terms of demographics, it was a huge generation, which is why one of the reasons it is called the Boomer Generation. In terms of events, it sort of bore witness to some of the defining events of that century. So, what would they say about it? I think they would say that a lot of big things happened during the era of the Boomers. SM (01:29:48): Okay. Is there any question that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? EC (01:29:56): I had no idea what you were going to ask, so... SM (01:30:00): One final thing, and thank you very much, Elvis, for... SM (01:30:03): One final thing, and thank you very much, Ellis, for... And I owe you lunch. EC (01:30:06): Oh, sure. Well, we can [inaudible] SM (01:30:07): I am going to do that because I come to New York. I have got about nine people. I got to take their pictures that I have interviewed on the phone, and I will be in communication with you. But do you think one of the qualities that probably is a good quality, but some people say is bad, is that this is a generation that really does not trust because they had so many leaders lie to them while they were growing up, whether it be Watergate or the lies about Vietnam, or even Eisenhower's U2 lie. They saw so many leaders lying to them that trust is, they're not a very trusting generation. EC (01:30:46): Well, that is a psychological question. I would not characterize the generation that way. I mean, there was certainly the phrase of the time, do not trust anyone over 30. SM (01:30:58): But Jerry Rubin changed that to 40 when he realized he was turning 30. EC (01:31:06): Oh hell, over 30 I mean, so of course. I do not think you can pick a psychological trait and use it to define an entire generation. I just do not. I think there are people with that generation who are... But to me that is much more, that is asking what analysis of personal psychology, which goes beyond, well beyond my expertise. But I just do not think those kinds of terms apply to an entire generation. SM (01:31:37): Very good. Well, thank you very... (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ellis Cose Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cose, Ellis ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource African American editors; African American Authors; Cose, Ellis--Interviews Description An account of the resource Ellis Cose, a native of Chicago, is a columnist and editor for <em>Newsweek</em>. He is the author of a dozen of books including the best-selling <em>The Rage of a Privileged Class</em>. He became a columnist at the age of 19 and he became a contributor for the <em>Times Magazine</em>. Cose appeared on several shows and he has been interviewed frequently around the world. Ellis earned his B.A. degree in Psychology from the University of Illinois and a Master’s degree in Science, Technology and Public Policy from George Washington University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-12-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.41a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.41b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 178:08 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a478dacb6ed154c74e7fdacb9498d1ba.jpg 3598cf14be1cf3dd6e23d13511db4e8c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b36e16b686b058c45d55ddb2a9a4be05.mp3 a6b42b40249b0e86671ab6ac8dc18551 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Cohen, 1955 May 21- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Robert Cohen is a professor at New York University where he teaches History, Social Studies, Education, and Human Development. He received his Bachelor's degree at SUNY Buffalo and his Ph.D. at the University of California at Berkeley. Cohen also writes books and most of them focus on either history or people as a whole.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dr. Robert Cohen is a professor at New York University where he teaches History, Social Studies, Education, and Human Development. He received his Bachelor's degree at SUNY Buffalo and his Ph.D. at the University of California at Berkeley. Cohen also writes books, most of which focus on either history or people as a whole.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span>University experience; University of South Carolina: Columbia: Berkeley: Free speech movement; Student protest; Walkout; Anti-war movement; Youth activism; SUNY Buffalo; 1960's; Social change; Welfare Rights Group; Black Panthers; Stereotypes; NAACP</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 199:21 Subject LCSH College teachers; New York University; Cohen, Robert, 1955 May 21--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Robert Cohen Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 19 November 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing one, two, testing. Record this. RC (00:00:08): Sure. SM (00:00:09): Yeah. RC (00:00:11): The president, this is the University of South Carolina. I can get the name of the person who spoke, I do not recall it offhand, but it was an administrator, who was explaining this freshman, or I think he called it First-Year Experience. And what happened was, after Kent State, I think it was, the student union building at University of South Carolina was taken over by the student protestors. And the president of the University of South Carolina was pretty upset about this. Like you said, why? How could students be so elevated from the university that they would take over a building? So how can we make them feel better about the university and better orient them? And those conversations led to this creating of this project, Freshman Experience. And it led to what emerged as a whole center at the University of South Carolina that launched this whole First-year Experience thing out of, became a big national, international thing. And now it has gone beyond that. I think there is a Sophomore Experience and there is a Senior Experience. There is a whole... And there's a ton of publications and all that. Anyway, this administrator, whose name I can, if you remind me, I can dig up, spoke at the conference. So he might be somebody, you want to interview. Shows that this had a sort of impact on educational reform. And it came at a place that you would not normally associate with a lot of student protests, which was the University of South Carolina, Columbia. SM (00:01:41): Well, and actually one of my questions later in the interview, deals with the impact that the student protest movement really had on college campus overall, because there is a lot of questions based on, now we are into our third generation since. And first question I want to ask you, I asked this to all of the people I have interviewed is, how did you become who you are? I know that you went to Berkeley, you graduated from Berkeley, you read it up also that you were involved in the 20th anniversary of The Free Speech Movement. But who are you? How did you become a history professor? What was your interest? How did you link up with The Free Speech Movement? Those kinds of things, and who were your role models? RC (00:02:27): Well, I became interested in student protests because I was involved in student protests. I was a high school student at the end of the Vietnam era. So I participated in the moratorium against the Vietnam War. And even as a high school freshman, I was involved in that. And this is in New York City? SM (00:02:54): That was (19)69. RC (00:02:54): Yeah. That is right. And the students, it was in public high school, James Madison in Brooklyn. But there was so much overcrowding back then, that we were not in the main building. We were in an annex building about half mile away. And so myself and some other students helped organize a walkout, a moratorium day, where we were going to walk out of the building and go over to the main building and join the demonstration there against the war, which is what we did. So I got involved and I got involved in the anti-war movement, in part because my brother and my older sister were involved in it. But also because my next door neighbor had been in the Marines. And I used to correspond with him. And he came back disillusioned with the war. And that got me very curious about what was going on with the war. So I think initially, I was interested in it because of the war in Vietnam. I also was very much interested in the civil rights movement. There was a African American student at Madison, who was the first black student to run for president, was Cornell with Knight. And my brother was involved in sort of this campaign, one of the people helping to manage this campaign. And administration was very hostile to it. And I think there was an interest in the civil rights movement itself. And I think, I guess I have always admired people like Bob Moses and they're always [inaudible]. So I think it was through those things that I first got interested. And just as an undergraduate, I was an undergraduate at SUNY Buffalo, and there was a lot of activism there too, centered around the anecdote of- SM (00:04:37): Oh, yeah. Governor Rockefeller, yeah. RC (00:04:43): Yeah. And so I think the student movement of the (19)60s always interesting movement because in part, I came out of that. So I am always interested in the student protest, youth activism in the (19)60s that came in through that experience about trying to stop the war in Vietnam and trying to fight against racial discrimination. SM (00:05:00): So you were at SUNY Buffalo, and then you went on to grad school? RC (00:05:03): Yes at Berkeley. SM (00:05:03): PhD At Berkeley. RC (00:05:05): Yeah. SM (00:05:05): Did you go to Berkeley based on the fact that The Free Speech movement was there? Or you thought it was a great history department? RC (00:05:11): No. I think it entered in my mind, that I might do something about The Free Speech Movement as a study, but it was really mostly because the history department was really such a great department back then, was not so much because of Berkeley's... And the stuff that happened with my connection with The Free Speech movement, was not part of my graduate program, was more like what I was doing because I was a graduate student activist. I was one of the people helped to found the TA union. SM (00:05:41): Teaching Assistant union? RC (00:05:42): Yeah, at Berkeley. That was in the (19)80s, it was called AGSE, Association of Grad Student Employees. And then, let us see, that is me back then. And we were trying to organize on that. And then I was also involved in the anti-apartheid. SM (00:06:02): Oh, yes. RC (00:06:04): I was the editorial page editor of the Daily Californian in the (19)60s. So when I left editor, they blew up some of the- SM (00:06:14): Wow. RC (00:06:16): ...some of the editorials SM (00:06:17): Oh my gosh. Very good. RC (00:06:18): So yeah, this is back in the (19)80s. So anyway, that is the stuff that I was doing. SM (00:06:22): Yeah, the anti-apartheid, that was (19)87, I believe, was not it, the heyday of that? RC (00:06:25): Well, actually, a little earlier. It was actually (19)84, (19)85. Actually, the spring of (19)85 is when I first took off because it was a connection between 2010 anniversary of The Free Speech Movement, which- SM (00:06:39): (19)84. RC (00:06:39): ... (19)84. And this was the poster from that. This is all the- SM (00:06:44): Oh my gosh. Wow, what a great poster. RC (00:06:49): It was organized by a guy named Michael Rossman, who was one of the leaders of The Free Speech Movement. SM (00:06:53): Unbelievable. That is- RC (00:06:55): Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So that is how I got involved with all this. I think, again, it is a kind of extension of my own background, but also just an interest in social change. SM (00:07:05): And now you are teaching and making sure that future generations understand their history and- RC (00:07:10): Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. SM (00:07:11): ...which is real important. RC (00:07:12): Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I teach teachers too, so that is the other thing. This is part of the education school, and I teach in the history department. In fact, I am doing a course on the (19)60s now with Marilyn Young, who does- SM (00:07:28): Yeah, I interviewed her. Yes. Yes. RC (00:07:30): She does the history of the Vietnam War. Yeah. And I think also, I would say that, the attempt to try to get the people to remember what happened in the (19)60s and just to understand history of social protest more generally. So yeah, I have been involved in this, there was a project, actually, we were working on trying to organize the fifth anniversary, some events around the Port Huron statements, fifth anniversary-anniversary in (19)62. So Tom Hayden was here, and we're going to organize some events around that too. But yeah, that is really what I am just interested in. Teaching students history of, well, I guess not just the, I would say, I have also written a book on the thirties, on student protesting in the thirties, so it is not just the (19)60s, because this is, there is a-a continuum here, protests that is always going on in the United States. SM (00:08:25): One thing is a takeoff because it was my second question is, when you were there in (19)84 and you were a graduate student and you was involved in the planning of the 20th anniversary, what was the difference between (19)64 and (19)84, in terms of the optimism or the feelings of the leaders in (19)64? Because I know Mario Savio was still alive, and Jackie Goldberg and obviously Bettina and others. Where were they in (19)84, in terms of their feelings toward the university that they feel like they had accomplished a lot on at that particular time? What made that such a special event? RC (00:09:10): Yeah. Well actually, I will answer in a second, but just reminded me, have you seen the film, Letter to the Next Generation about Ohio State students? SM (00:09:16): No, I have not seen that. I went to grad school at Ohio State, that is where it was. RC (00:09:20): Oh, then you would have to see this film that is by Jim Klein, called Letter to the Next Generation. It is a film where, he has 1980s students looking back on students from the 1960s. And actually not 1960, but really cannot say, 1970. So you should probably interview him if he's still around because he did a whole movie about this. SM (00:09:40): Well, that was anti-war at Ohio State in (19)72, (19)73. And then... RC (00:09:43): Yeah. Well, because what he is doing, is he is looking at what happened to that generation in the (19)80s? SM (00:09:48): What is his full name? RC (00:09:50): I think it is James Klein. Just Google the book. SM (00:09:54): Klein? RC (00:09:54): Yeah. SM (00:09:54): Okay. RC (00:09:55): If you just Google the movie, it is called Letter to the Next Generation. Okay. SM (00:09:57): And I thought I was up on things. RC (00:10:01): No, it is a really interesting film. I always use it when I teach about the (19)60s because they ask, like what you are saying, about how the generations are different. Now, you were asking about what their attitude was? What the- SM (00:10:12): Yeah, and what did you learn? Obviously, you knew about it, but what did you learn in (19)84 that you did not know about what happened in (19)64, particularly by having that opportunity to meet Mario firsthand and the others firsthand? RC (00:10:27): Well, I think the main thing was just seeing the, first of all, I think one thing was impressive about them was, that they had maintained their interest in democratic change. They were still very idealistic. They did not advertise it like, we made history and you cannot. They wanted to empower people. They thought it was important to let the next generation know what had gone on and their generation. I think that Mario was very involved in the movement against US intervention in Central America. He was very concerned about that. Bettina had been very much concerned about that as well, but also very involved in founding women's studies and gay lesbian rights, woman's issues. Jackie Goldberg had been on the city council and the state legislature in California. These people all had ongoing concerns with social protests. And also the idea was, this is a lot more sort of deeper than taking over a building or something. It was not just bang, bang, bang, boom, boom, boom. It was really a lifelong commitment to trying to make America a more just society. And sort of understanding that I think was important for people. But also, I think it was that, in terms of the students in my generation, it was also seeing that, you had the possibility of making change. That this was not something that was unique to the (19)60s or it was not some brilliant genius that created this, but rather conditions were conducive to it and people felt like that they could make a difference. So I think, what happened at Berkeley, was we had this enormous rally and a series of events about the Free Speech commemoration in October of (19)84. And then I think it sort of startled people that, they could get so many students out because, at that time, the press had been acting as if those students are really all a bunch of yuppies and no one's going to be active anymore. And none of that was really true. But there was a lot of hype about it. And I think this showed that, hey, there is a big progressive community here. There is a big left liberal subculture, we can do things. And I think that fed into this activism against Reagan's imperialist policy of Central America and also this dealing that we could do more on the issue of anti-apartheid. And that was really something that the movement was really getting launched in DC and then Columbia University. Berkeley was not first, but then when to hit Berkeley, it was really big. And in part, I think because in the fall there had been this discussion about activism through these collaboration events. SM (00:13:12): What I like about your book and you talk about Mario, but you make, and your introduction and throughout the book, it is very important for people to read it, I think. I think Your introduction is great because there is two things. The media has a way of building up myths. And one of the myths is that when SDS split, with the weatherman and then the concept of the Black Panthers, some people said they were violent and some people said they were not. The media had a way of taking on the weathermen, as if this was the way the anti-war movement students were. They were all this way, this is the way. And so you make sure that, in your talks with Mario, that that is not true, that the majority of the students were not violent at the very end. And why has the media, in your opinion, tried to portray this generation the way it has? Just sensationalize things. RC (00:14:06): Well, I think a few things. One with the Panthers, I, there definitely was violent, there were wrenches that were very violent. And in New Haven, they tortured and killed somebody. The Bay Area, there was somebody killed. So I think there is, and the weather just a few blocks from here, blew up a building. So it is not that they are not sensationalizing that did happen. But it is a question of, how representative of the thousands and millions of people who are involved in this movement. It is like, yeah, if you have a demonstration and a hundred thousand people march not violently, and then a hundred people throw rocks, who is going to make the headline? So I think that there is an issue about... News is almost by definition what is new and different. And if you have had five years of people doing these large marches against the war, that is not considered news anymore. What is news is, when people carry a flag or blow up a building, that is what is considered news. And that is the story. I was involved in high school anti-war movement in New York City, and it never would have occurred to us to do anything violent. We did not think about that. It was not even a temptation because we just thought anything like that would did not make any sense. And most people would not think that made sense. So I think there is that. I think there is a way in which some of the stuff that happened, this agenda dynamic to it, seems like very masculine and Hollywood to do things that are violent. Or even the style of the panthers, black leather and black berets and there is something slick about it. In fact, there is this book by Thomas... You know this book, Sweet Land of Liberty by Thomas Sugrue about the- SM (00:15:55): I have that, yes. I have not read it, I have it though. RC (00:15:58): Well, what is interesting, by the way of example, he does not dwell much on the Black Panthers because he does not think they had much real impact in changing society. Whereas, if you look at the welfare rights movement, which did benefit lots of people, in other words, they got a lot of people out of poverty and they got government assistance of people who really needed it, but it was not big and flashy. Nobody was wearing berets or anything, leather and berets and taking guns out. And it would be just like that. If you try to depict that in a visual, you would have a bunch of people sitting in a bunch of rooms organizing meetings, which looks like, well, that looks boring, but actually it is helping poor people more than the Panthers did. So he highlights, I think there is statistics like that. And by the way, that movement was headed mostly by women. I think it was tied in with the Great Society's community action. Committees that, like you said, at a place like Philadelphia, 70 percent of the people who were involved in the leadership of that were black women. Now, most people who say in the (19)60s, if you asked them about this welfare rights movement, would you draw a blank? If you ask them about the Black Panthers, they would know that right away. But the question is no, which is more representative? Which is having more of an impact? And I think it is the welfare rights group. But I also think that, what is sensational, what is going to make headlines is what is unusual. It is not to say the violence had no role. You think about the big ghetto rebellions, there was not in fact, there was a kind of outburst of anger and violence that awakened America to some pretty terrible social conditions people were facing. But I do not think that is really... If you looked at Berkeley, for example, Berkeley in (19)64, The Free Speech movement was almost entirely non-violent and it was not even about Vietnam. An issue, if you ask students, they would not even know what it is about because, despite the name, they would think I must have something to do with Vietnam or something because it's the (19)60s, or the draft or whatever. But nothing to do with any of that, just about free speech that grew out of activism that is connected to the civil rights movement. Which was, at that point, pretty relentlessly non-violent. So I think, yeah, there is a way which the (19)60s gets dealt with, through one of the most sort of technicolor, exciting image. Not just violence, but also sex, drugs and rock and roll and thinking about the summer of love and all that counterculture. But if you look at the picture of the students marching to the Regents meeting of The Free Speech Movement, Mario is wearing a tie and coat and the woman are wearing skirts looking... The fact at that point, they were being baited as beat... Like the attack on the students' movement at Berkeley at that time was hip... The word hippie was not even used yet. It was still, people do not think about beatniks. So, it was like beatnik baiting. In other words, oh, there must all be in sandals and have long hair and beards and all that. And this is 1964, the beetles had just come to America, there was not really a counterculture as there would be later in the (19)60s. So, what I am saying is there are distinctive eras within the (19)60s, not just one era. And there's a way in which the easiest way to deal with something is like these stereotypes. And so I think that, there is a lot of obfuscation and a lot of misunderstanding in the (19)60s, because the way that is remembered is through these very dramatic late (19)60s images, both the violent ones that you were alluding to and countercultural ones that, again, it is not that it is based on nothing because there were groups like the Black Panthers and Weather Underground, but tiny. And the NAACP, had a thousand times more members than the Black Panthers. So why are we paying so much more attention to the Black Panthers than the NAACP? Or the same thing you could say about, with The Free Speech Movement is non-violent, so why is it very few people know it is history? It is in part because that is not the images that people have. SM (00:20:09): You bring up two other important points too. And I think when, in the book on Mario Savio and the others about longevity, when you talk about Mario, you are talking about a lifelong activist. He might have had the problems of the depression, some of the other things, but deep down inside his central core was rights. Even as you bring up all the time, the rights was a very important part of what the (19)60s was all about. And there were many people. And the media, again, oftentimes tried to portray that the (19)60s generation or the boomer generation, not just the activist, but overall, they went on to become yuppies. I heard that in Philadelphia, when I was living there, there is a whole section and a lot of them were making money on Wall Street. They were in their early thirties and so forth. So there was that business about longevity. And the other important point you bring up, which is really important. We know Reagan came to power because of the backlash, when he became governor and the whole thing. But this perception, the media again, that Reagan, the Reich came to dominance, so to speak. And what happened in The Free Speech Movement in the protests in the (19)60s, basically, I would not say it was defeated, but the backlash put America back on the right track, so to speak. And you bring up a very important point in the book that, yeah, there may have been a backlash, but it did not have an effect on the rights movement and all the movements. Could you kind of talk about those other two things that the media oftentimes tried to portray? RC (00:21:49): Well, I think that the shift to the right has been very powerful and it is very difficult to deal with, in other words, to overcome it is just that it does not mean the other people disappear. We tend to deal in very simple decade thing. The (19)60s was this, the (19)80s was this. People that have not died, they are still there, or there is a core of people who are still active. So it is very simplistic to think that they do not... The other thing is that there has always been a trend in American history, with officers such as [inaudible] talks about the cycles of American history going between liberalism and reform and privatism and conservatism. So that is nothing new. And the thing is that, the attempt of the right to bring back the (19)50s, or you want put it that way, which has always been the project. Look, you can say, the problem with the analysis, is that the assumption is that the way things are, is the way that they always will be. In other words, thinking when people were making those arguments about Reaganism or Bushsism, whatever you want to say, it was when they were in the White House dominating things. And they have had a lot of political success, so it's easy to think that that is really what matters. But remember that Obama, the election to be president would never ever happen if it was not for the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act of the (19)60s. In other words, so you could just easily argue that, well, the right was just a blip on the screen and it is really the left that is making a difference because we have a president who is African American, which never would have been impossible before the (19)60s or without the (19)60s. But I think, the way I see it, it is an ongoing struggle. In other words, that the right tries to impose its own agenda politically and culturally in America. And there is a lot of resistance to it because a lot of things have changed because of what happened during the (19)60s. Women are not willing to be subordinated the way that they were in the (19)50s. There is a resistance when they try to get rid of, say, Roe versus Wade. Or if you think about the attempts to, every time the US intervenes abroad, there is much more resistance now than there would have been before Vietnam. So whether it is Iraq or Afghanistan or Grenada or Nicaragua, there is pushback in a way that there was not before. So the dynamic, in other words, there is always a right left conflict in the United States. The question is, who is winning and how that is going? And I think that what the (19)60s did was, it gave it a lot more, the left, a lot more resources and ideas about how to push back. So I think, that from my perspective, I think that the backlash events against the (19)60s is very powerful and very worrisome. But on other hand, look, why is it the rights always worried about Murphy Brown or whatever is going on in Hollywood? And this feeling like that there was a cultural revolution in the (19)60s that they lost, even if they take local power, that is why they are so furious, is that they feel like, well we took Congress back, or we took the White House during the Reagan and Bush years. Why is this culture still so progressive? Still so- SM (00:25:09): Good point. RC (00:25:12): ... defying conservatism because there were political transformations that came out in the (19)60s, but then there is backlash and there is also postal transformation in the (19)60s, and they had not been able to reverse all of that. So you turn on TV set now you are going to see, well, black folks on TV, you are going to see women on TV and roles that they would not have played in the (19)50s or early (19)60s. So there is a lot of things I think that the (19)60s changed in an enduring way that I do not think are ever going to go back. But I also think, yeah, there has been.... You know there is another book, Framing the (19)60s, where we talked about the way that the right has used the (19)60s over the years, have you seen that? SM (00:25:51): I probably have that. I try to keep up. I have not read them all. RC (00:25:54): Yeah, that is this one. He talks about the way that Reagan and Bush, all these guys- SM (00:26:00): Framing the... RC (00:26:02): Framing the (19)60s. ... using the (19)60s as a kind of whooping boy to try and basically say that we need to be rescued from the way that America was corrupted and ruined by this decade of disorder and chaos and violence. So in a way, it has given them something to run against. But on the other hand, I think, it strengthened the left in lots of ways that. In other words, what is the simplification is to think that, well, because we won the last election, there has been some great mandate and this huge change that, like Ingrid calling Clinton the Countercultural McGovern. And we were going to get rid of all the things the (19)60s wrecked about America. And basically overreaching and ended up getting kicked out of power because there was a lot of support, not from a government, but just for a different type of society where women have rights, where black have rights, where we're concerned about the general welfare and not just about private profits. So I think that this whole push to the right, has been in part, fueled by this reaction against the changes in the (19)60s. But a lot of people disagree with them and they do not win every election. How do you explain Clinton two terms, then Obama's? And I do not mean to make it just about Democrats and Republicans because it goes deeper than that. Clinton said that if you look back on the (19)60s as a disaster, you are probably a Republican. You look back- SM (00:27:34): [inaudible] RC (00:27:36): ...probably. I think there is something to that, but I think it goes beyond party politics. I think it is more about how are we organizing our values and our lives? And that I think on issues of foreign policy, that runs especially deep. The idea that the United States should not just go around pushing other countries around. And if they do that, then, especially in an aggressive way, there's going to be resistance here. And there has been. SM (00:27:58): It is like Bobby Muller when he came back from... I know Bobby quite well, he came to my retirement party and he said that one of the things he learned about being in Vietnam was, that when he came back, he knew America was not always right. And that was hard for him because when he went into the Marines, he thought America was always right. RC (00:28:17): Well, yeah. Yeah, I think that is true. I think that a lot of people were awakened to the idea that United States, on some level, is not that different from other great powers. And that acts in a self-interested way and sometimes this regards to the rights of other nations. And so the whole question of, when I talk to my teachers, I ask them, how are you going to teach about America's role in the world? Are you going to act as if the United States is just a benign force at all times? Or is the United States an imperialist power? That is a question that I think needs to be asked. Or if you think about Osama bin Laden, the United States during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, act like they were freedom fighters. A decade later, then they were terrorists. Is sort of like, well, there is lots of examples. Think about Iran helping to overthrow Mossadeq. And then you end up with the Shah imposing the Shah, and then you get the rise of the Islamic Republic and Khomeinism. In a way, a lot of these things are connected to stuff we did, or thinking about overthrowing Allende. And the idea that, after that you have Pinochet. A lot of times, by messing with other countries internal history, the way that we do, we get outcomes that are worse than what they started out with. So I think that, that is one of the things that came out of (19)60s is saying, well, look, we are not going to always assume that just because it is US foreign policy, it does not make sense. We are going to ask you, what are you doing? Are you respecting what this other country is about? And is the outcome worse than it was when you inherited it? SM (00:30:04): President Obama is damned if he does or damned if he does not. It is interesting, depending on who you read, supposedly he does not like to identify with the (19)60s. But people, his opponents, criticize him as being the epitome of the (19)60s, in fact, way to the left. RC (00:30:26): So there is always this ridiculous political dynamic in the United States, that anything that is even moderately left to center is seen as being... You see these books that are published that depict him as a socialist. Really on the cover. SM (00:30:35): I hear that, there are people who might, Facebook, some of my conservative students- RC (00:30:39): Or Gingrich, it is completely nutty. I think that, he is so moderate that, I think in a way he sees himself as a post-partisan president and wants to go beyond the (19)60s. So I think that, in a way, maybe one of his mistakes is not understanding, that this whole politics of backlash, that the right in this country's organized and a way they cannot even be civil about it. They have somebody saying, well, my goal... Even in a place and time, like the (19)60s, there is some degree of bipartisanship. You respect the office of the presidency. Here, just this week, they wanted to meet with them to talk about the budget, they are too busy. What I am saying to you is that, in a way, I see the way that he is treated, by the right, as kind of an extension of this unfriendliness towards black rights, towards civil rights. There is an element of that there. I do not mean it is just about race, but I think there is a part of that there. But I also think he is very moderate. I think of him as being... My perspective on him is that, he's been too much thinking that he can move beyond those... He wants to, it is admirable to get United States out of this mode of this left, right dynamic, but there is really no way to, because that is the way, the Republican Party is organized. They're organized basically, to wage class warfare on the poor and that is basically it. And also, I think to have this sort of imperial presence, and it is hard to disengage from that. But you cannot disengage from that if you do not understand or you are not going to articulate. Well, look, we need to have something that is like that, a new, new deal. We are entering into a period of liberal reform or progressive reform and be able to change the discourse. Right now, it is amazing to me, going around the (19)60s, I think there is a whole way in which... It is like Hoover's, it is basically that you are saying that you want to go back to small government, essentially the magic of the free market and deregulation. And that is what caused the crash in the first place. I have a tea party seat at my class, I talked to him about this small department. How do you explain, you think about the last depression we are in, what pulled us out was World War II, the greatest deficit spending in American history. So that was suggest that, the small government solutions that you are talking about is not the way to get out of it. In fact, when Roosevelt used a small government approach in (19)37, it caused a recession. He had a kind of [inaudible], he scaled back on these programs and he got this huge upsurge in unemployment. So I do not know, I guess what I think about this whole thing is that, it is kind of over the top, these attacks on him. On the other hand, I think that he is part of the (19)60s legacy and is resented for that reason. And even though he does not want to identify that way, and I think that is admirable in a certain sense, that you want to not have this partisan, you want to get out of this partisan, but you cannot because the people on the right, see him as an extension of... I think what you see with the right is, any kind of government dimension that is seen as... They do not make the sense between liberalism and socialism. RC (00:34:03): Any kind of government dimension is seen as... They do not make-make sense between liberalism and socialism. And so, they are nutty in that way. There is a big difference between someone who is liberal and someone who is a socialist and that is lost on them. So, I think that in my film, there is a lot of this discussion about Obama... Reflects some of these same issues except that he wants to hold himself above or away from this and it's not really working. SM (00:34:29): When you look at the boomer generation, do you look at the entire... Actually, there is 74 million people in that generation. People have written about the (19)60s, a very small percentage were activists. Depending on who you talk to, I said 15 percent and I have been corrected many times by historians. Thomas Power says, "Steve, 5 percent." But what I am asking here in this question is, if you look at the entire 74 million and, in your book, you concentrate on Mario and some of the new left, what are your thoughts on the whole generation as a whole? RC (00:35:10): Well, first of all, I do not think generations make history. I think people who are active make history. The American Revolution was John Adams. That estimate was a third of people who are opposed, a third were supportive, and a third were neutral. So, to speak about 1770s generation is not particularly meaningful because the Loyalists lost. The apathetic did not make much difference. The people who made the difference were those who were- SM (00:35:35): The few. RC (00:35:38): ...involved in the Patriot cause, so I think that is always true. History has always made by minorities. In other words, what kind of history would you write if you highlighted the fact that the majority of people were not involved. It would be history of inactivity, indifference. So I do not really think that is... To me, I know that argument. The same thing is true, Melvin Dubofsky made that argument about the (19)30s. He wrote an essay called The Not So Turbulent years. And there is a trilogy, or no, a two-volume work by Irving Bernstein called The Turbulent Years about the (19)30s. It's about the labor upheaval and all that. And he wrote an article saying, well, that is really got it backwards. Actually, I do not know if he still, but he used to teach at Binghamton, Melvin Dubofsky, great labor historian. SM (00:36:30): That is right. RC (00:36:32): Anyway, so he made the argument that what we really need to figure out is not why a minority in the labor movement was active and striking, we have to figure out why majority did not strike. And I do not think that is wrong. I think, yeah, we need to know both. So my feeling is, the boomer generation is probably more affected by the cultural changes of the (19)60s. More feminists, more egalitarian, less racist than... In other words, they were there. But like this book I am doing on the South, probably the majority of Southern students, no, definitely majority, were not involved in the student protests. And actually were kind of either indifferent or hostile to it, but still their campuses were changed by it. At the end of the... There is a book about, I mean we are doing a book, there is also a book that came out very recently, I think it is called Sitting in and Standing Up. It is by Jeff Turner at University of Georgia Press, about southern student protests in the (19)60s. And what he found, and what we found in his essays that we are looking at is that the college campuses of the (19)60s started out in the South pretty conservative places. If you were at a place like the University of Alabama, Georgia, there would be no Black students at all, very traditional gender roles, not much academic freedom. By the end of the (19)60s, of course with desegregation that had changed, but also because of the student movement, the anti-war movement had an impact even in the Deep South. So what I am saying to you is those campuses... Today, if you go to a place like the University of Georgia or the University of Alabama, I am sure there would be a woman's studies program, a Black studies program. There would be people who write about American foreign policy in a critical vein. As I am saying is that these institutions were transformed and became more progressive, even if majority people, majority students politically are just sort of mainstream. So I think people were changed by the culture and political atmosphere, even if they were not activists. I do not really... I just do not think that a good way to make history is just by counting numbers, just by counting how people are participating and how many are not- SM (00:38:51): I think some people that have actually kind of emphasized this for people that are trying to lessen the impact these people had by just concentrating on the numbers. RC (00:39:02): Yeah, and I would say that that is a way... You can never really do political history that way because politics is not made by... For example, when we think about 1961, are we concerned with the majority of people in Massachusetts who are not involved in democratic politics or are we trying to figure out what John Kennedy was about? He is one person, right? Well, he is one person who made a big difference because he became President of the United States. So there is a way in which if you really take the logic of that argument, then you are only going to do a certain type of social history and you are not going to look at political history. So it is not just about the (19)60s. As I said, you can the same argument about the Revolution. You can make the same argument about Secession. ow many people were actively involved in the secessionist movement? It was a minority, but it had this enormous impact on the South and on the country. So I do not think that the boomer... When people talk about the boomer generation as a whole, I would not expect any generation the majority would do anything. You are talking about just millions and millions of people. But the fact is that that generation gave birth to the largest mass movement of college student protestors in the history of this country and that is very significant. The first generation that really, a large percentage said no to racism and said no to imperialism, that is significant. That does not mean that a majority of people of that generation, if you look at the polls, majority of people were in the 18 to 21 age group supported the Vietnam War till very-very late. SM (00:40:38): That is right, (19)66. RC (00:40:38): So even beyond, there is that book by Wattenberg and all those, The New Majority that shows that. So it is definitely the case that we are not talking about a majority of that generation doing anything. SM (00:40:52): Do you like the term boomer? RC (00:40:55): Well, I think that is just reflects the baby boom. I do not have a particular problem about it. To me it is not the generation itself, that idea, it is just the basic demographics. It does not tell you all that much. I do not know. SM (00:41:10): Yeah, well one of the things [inaudible] we learned when I was in grad school at Ohio State when reading Harry Edward's book Black Students and some of Kenneth Keniston's books and so forth, is that the (19)60s generation was divided into so many different areas. And Harry talked about the differences between militants, anomic activists, activists, radicals and so forth. That was the first time I really learned the difference between them. And what he was basically saying is that the leaders of the (19)60s movements were oftentimes those born between 1938, (19)39 and (19)45. Because you look at Tom Hayden, you look at Mario Savio, they were in that (19)40 to (19)45 period and they were part of a spirit. But it is a spirit that- RC (00:42:04): Yeah, I think that is true probably for the earlier (19)60s. I think that with the... Remember that both Mario and Hayden were part of the founding fathers and mothers of the New Left. But if you look at the late (19)60s generation, they would fall into that later range. But I do not think, for me it is like saying when I was growing up in that period, I did not feel myself particularly identified as being a boomer. That term does not really have much all that much meaning for me, I think it is a question of the way I see in college campuses. Essentially, you have different subcultures that are either consciously or unconsciously competing to set the tone of their generation. So you have a more academic, more traditional, maybe more political, they're all different types of subcultures that are competing. And in the (19)60s what happened was a sort of more activist subculture really began to dominate. And that is to me what is significant. Not the demographics that it was the largest generation of young people. I think what happened probably could have happened no matter how many young people there were, I guess you could say because there were many more kids in college that had made it possible for this group to have a larger impact. But it is not necessarily so, if you look at the (19)30s, my first book was about student protests during the Great Depression. There was no boomer generation there, but they were the first generation to have mass student protests, the sort of depression generation. I guess what I am saying is to me that is not really the central fact of the era. I guess I would say that probably the fact that it was mostly more affluent era helped to make it so, but when people, you talk about the boomer, they are talking about boomers are talking about the size of the generation. There were so many young people because of the baby boom. And I think that is kind of, to me it is not really the central issue or the central factor that made this all possible. It is sort of the background demographic. And I think the way that it's talked about is, it is often a put down, the boomer generation are these... Because there is so many, they think the whole world is their generation and their self-indulgent and self-centered and all this stuff and I think a lot of that is kind of overstated. I do not think I hardly ever use that, even though I have written a lot about the (19)60s, it is not a term that I have used. I wrote also about student... The southern stuff I have written about is about the opposite end of it. It's about southern students resisting integration at one point. I did not get to finish it, but I was doing a book and I published some articles about the University of Georgia desegregation crisis in (19)61. And I was going to do a comparison of the desegregation crisis in the University of Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi. And those students, they said that they were activists initially, they were active on the other side. They were active in resisting change. My article on the Georgia group was called Two Four Six Eight We Do Not Want to Integrate. It is about these white students who essentially rioted outside the dormitory of Charlayne Hunter, later on Charlayne Hunter-Gault, first Black student at the University of Georgia. And they were part of the same boomer generation that Charlene was, or earlier incarnation of what I was. But how is that meaningful? In other words, what does that explain to you? Also, the Young Americans for Freedom- SM (00:45:43): Yes, the brand-new book out on that too, by the way. RC (00:45:45): Yeah. Which book were you- SM (00:45:51): It is a brand-new book by a guy named Pre, Primo? It is really in depth, real thick book. RC (00:45:57): I have this book about, there is several different things, but there's also this Rebecca Klatch's book, A Generation Divided about- SM (00:46:04): Oh, I have that. RC (00:46:05): ...about the New Left and the New Right, looking at the... You see some parallels, but I am just saying if it is a generational thing that makes people progressive, then how do you explain this stuff on the right that is going on? SM (00:46:15): I will email you the- RC (00:46:16): Sure. SM (00:46:16): It is a brand-new book, just came out. RC (00:46:18): No, I had not seen that yet. So what I am saying to you, is to me, it is such a massive group and such a huge category. It does not explain too much. That is why I thought- SM (00:46:28): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? And what do you think was the watershed ruling? RC (00:46:34): When did the (19)60s begin? Well, there is a lot of people have different perspectives on that. People talk about the long (19)60s. I think that from my perspective, in terms of setting the tone of the decade, really the February of 1960 with the sit-ins in North Carolina, that is at Greensboro, that is really helped to set the tone for what happened politically in the (19)60s. And as far as when it ended, I think that that is more difficult. You could say that it ended with the Vietnam War. There's a lot of dispute about to what extent the social protests of the (19)60s actually ended because a time when after SDS had imploded and the anti-war movement kind of came to a screeching halt because the war ended, you had the beginnings of the feminist movement, you have the upsurge of gay and lesbian liberation, the birth of the environmental movement. So I think it is kind of a complicated question. I think that I tend to think of the United States as a culture that does not have these neat little beginnings and endings. The (19)60s ends as a political... The anti-war movement ended. But in a sense it was reincarnated again every time a new US intervention happened, it's like what's her name talks about this, she rejects the whole idea of the frontier. I am forgetting her name. Patricia Limerick. This is a book about the legacy of conquest. She is the founding mother of the New Western history. And she talked about how people... When does the frontier, when does it close? And she said, "Well, it opens every time there is a dispute about Indian land." Or in other words, her view is that the period ends when you have people looking back on it with... When they make up these sort of Disneyland type of tourist attractions about it. And you could say, well there is a Woodstock museum or something. But it comes back as soon as there is a dispute about land rights and there are. In other words it is like it all starts to come back again. But I think in terms of the larger dynamic, could say that there's a lot of different points we could say. Well, the right, really absurd. Was it the reelection of Nixon in (19)68? Could you say that Chicago and the reelection of Nixon in (19)68 ended the (19)60s? Well, I guess the reason why it is a difficult question is because the (19)60s changed so much and there were so many different areas. You think about legal history, political history, social history, cultural history. There is a lot of different manifestations of the change that the (19)60s made. And you take this Tinker decision about students having the rights in school. There have been a lot of decisions because the Supreme Court moved to the right, whether it is Bethel versus Frazier or any of the other decisions, the bang hits for Jesus one more recently. There is a lot of shifting away from those rights because the (19)60s ended with those decisions or the fact that they still have not thrown Tinker out. Is that so that there's still continuity? So I think you could say the same thing in terms of politics. Does the (19)60s end when Reagan got elected president, then is that really because he was a nemesis of them? Well then how do you explain Obama? But I guess the way I think of in terms of there being mass movements in the streets, that did end with the end of the Vietnam War. And so I think that Doug [inaudible] has an article about this whole question about did the (19)60s ever end? And if you have this concept of the long (19)60s, it could seem like, no, it never ends. But definitely there is a change in the way the politics are organized. There is not like massive... There are not mass movements and mass protests in the streets and on college campuses. And that really ended in the early (19)70s. So I would say probably that is how I would say- SM (00:51:15): The person that you co-teach the course with, Marilyn Young. Has she stated to you when the (19)60s began? Because I asked that question to her. RC (00:51:22): No, we have not gotten to that yet. I do not think I have [inaudible] what would she have said? SM (00:51:25): She said it started with the Beats. RC (00:51:27): Oh, the Beats. Yeah, we actually, we started talking about the Beats. But I mean, that is culturally right? SM (00:51:31): Yes. RC (00:51:31): So I think that I would agree that the roots of... There is a lot of different roots in the (19)50s that make the (19)60s possible. But I think politically I would say, again, that question when you talk about the (19)60s, you could also say, well, in terms of the court cases, you say the (19)60s began with Brown, right? In (19)54. SM (00:51:53): (19)54. RC (00:51:54): So I think it depends on what is it you are focusing on? Is it culture? Is it electoral politics? Is it politics in the street? Is it judicial politics? You would have different answers depending on which of those you are focusing. It is sort of like saying, "When did the Great Depression end?" People say, "Well it did not end until World War II." And I said, "Well macro economically that is true. But if you look at the immediate crisis like the farm crisis or the banking crisis, no, those ended much earlier." So I think that depends on which you were talking about. But I think that if you asked me as a political story, then I would say that it began with the idea of mass protesting, possible as a civil disobedience as a source of social change. It began with the sit-ins in began in Greensboro and it ended a little bit after the war ended. It actually began to cool right after Kent State, in terms of mass protest in the streets. That is what I would say. But in terms of the cultural dynamic and the spinoff of other movements it's a very gendered answer. If we think, well the anti-war movement is what made the (19)60s, then what about the feminist movement which really hit a stride in the (19)70s? The same thing, gay liberation and lesbian liberation, those are things that really took off in the (19)70s. The same thing as the environmental movement and then the upsurge of the anti-nuclear movement. So I think it is maybe a little too sweeping to say it ends here and begins there. But I think something did change in the (19)70s in the sense that they're being mass in the street’s kind of protests. SM (00:53:38): Since people are going to be reading these oral history interviews, I know what the Free Speech Movement is and so do you, but my question here is if you could just briefly describe what the Free Speech Movement was, what it was not, why did it happen? Who were the student leaders and why was this event so important for colleges in (19)64 and beyond? RC (00:54:03): Well, the Free Speech Movement was basically what its name said. It was a contest over freedom of speech initially, where the administration... It started as a kind of board dispute where the university ends and the street, the city begin. And that is a kind of interesting dispute to begin with because in a way, what that was about on the corner of the south corner of the campus is saying that you can have the right to do political advocacy if you are off campus. And they thought that the strip of land on Bancroft and Telegraph avenues was off campus. But then it turned out, they found out that some of the little political tables they used to do organizing were actually on university property, that that strip the land that they thought was owned by the city was actually partially owned by the university and part of it was owned by the university. So then it was violating this university regulation about political neutrality. But if you just think about that, what that means is there's more freedom off campus then there is on campus. The First Amendment will protect your free speech rights off campus but on campus, you cannot do political advocacy. And just think about what that says. I mean, the university is supposed to be a place where you have academic freedom and the free expression of ideas is treasured. And instead, we're saying that, "Well, if this becomes part of the campus, it is got the kiss of death on it." It is sort of like, "No, you cannot do protest here. You cannot do advocacy here." So that is a reflection of the lack of political freedom on campuses, especially Berkeley on campus, that is ever since the Red Scare of our (19)30s. There is a mini Red Scare in the Bay Area after the general strike, where in (19)34 the university put these regulations out about political neutrality that you cannot do advocacy on campus. And that is very oppressive. Basically, it was done to protect the university from being red baited by the university, by the right wing and the state legislature. But how can you have freedom in a university if you cannot have free speech? And how can you have free speech if you cannot advocate? They thought, "Well, you could talk about anything but you cannot advocate something." Well, that is a ridiculous distinction. It is a distinction without difference, there is no way that... Mario said, "You would have to be like a Solomon to be able to make that kind of a distinction." And it was not tenable. And when they got pushed back with, then it would collapse. But the point is that these rules were restrictive and it was reinforced by the loyalty oath and McCarthyism. And even though this is 1964 and the president of the campus, Clark Kerr is a liberal, he is still towing the line with these very restrictive regulations. And so, what really brought this to a head was students were very much affected by the Civil Rights Movement and by the civil rights protests against Barry Goldwater because they had the Democratic... The Republican Convention at the Cow Palace in San Francisco. So students wanted to participate in these things. And then the university tried to clamp down when they found out, the Oakland Tribune reporter came and found out that this is not city property, it is campus property. So therefore the university, "Oh, we have to then stop this organizing." And the students said, "No, we know. Why should we be restricted in our ability to speak and our ability to protest." And the university was not flexible. And the university students began first very politely trying. That is another thing that is important. They did not immediately say, "Okay, let us take over a building." That is not the way people operated back then. They said, "Let us try to petition, this is unreasonable. Let us get the university to reconsider these policies." But the university would not reconsider. It was basically saying that we do not think that the university should be playing this role. And so they would not compromise. I mean, not compromise, there was really no way to compromise in the sense that you either are going to have free speech on campus or you're not. The university wanted to make these compromises, as well. "We will let you have these tables but you cannot advocate political action." And then they changed the position and said, "Well, you can advocate political action, but it cannot be illegal." Well if you are advocating action against racism and that leads to a sit-in, that is illegal. So you are restricting their speech, their ability to make the university a place where students are involved in trying to serve society can organize against racism. And the students felt that was wrong. And that in turn, led to social, to protests, to sit-ins. And that in turn, I think had several effects. One was that it showed students that even though you by yourself are not powerful as a student using civil disobedience as a great equalizer, you can as a student have power if you are organized together. So that is one piece of this. The other thing that I think that the protests led to was students, after they said, "Well, the university is restricting us and this is not right." Then they began to say, "Well, wait a second, why is the university doing this?" In other words, what happened was it began as a movement was about free speech, but it evolved into something else beyond that. Because what I am saying is what happened is once the free speech issue is surfaced, then it led students to wonder, "Well, why is the university doing this? What's wrong with the university itself that it restricts freedom of speech?" And they came to this conclusion that the university was too close to what they call the military industrial complex. And so, was willing to sacrifice freedom of its own students and faculty in order to ingratiate itself with the powers that be. And so in other words, it led to this whole critique of the corporate university, which today is very much in vogue amongst some scholars who would look at the way that the university's become so much... If you look at David Kirp's book Shakespeare, Einstein and the Bottom Line, there's tons of books this criticize the university for being essentially, almost like a business. Or Sheila Slaughter's book Academic Capitalism. There is all this critique of the university as losing its sense of mission. So I think that the point is that it started off as movement just to... Mario came back from Mississippi and no intention at all of launching a mass movement at Berkeley. They were not interested in protesting about the university. They were just intending to keep on doing their activism in the Bay Area. There was all this activism in the Bay Area against discrimination in the local stores, in hotels on Auto Row. They thought they would continue to do that. It was just because the university basically was trying to stop them from doing that by denying them their free speech rights, that they began to focus their attention from off campus to on campus. And then once they started to focus it on campus, they began to be critical of the university because why is the university repressing free speech? And what came out of this movement were several things. One is that it showed that the students could be effective. SM (01:01:15): Hold on a second. Mine is to prepare people to be administrators in higher ed. RC (01:01:25): Oh, that is interesting. SM (01:01:26): Well, go ahead. RC (01:01:30): What I was going to say is that then what happened was... What was significant of the Free Speech Movement was that it won. Most student protests lose, historically. They won. And they won in part because the students had a core issue that a lot of people agreed on, that people should have the right to speak freely. They won because they were mostly non-violent. And so even though it seemed the majority of people in California were opposed to the movement because all they focused on was how disruptive it was. They thought there were riots, there were not riots, there were protests. The students at Sproul Hall did not rush the building. They marched in slowly. It is almost like a formal ceremony. When Joan Baez singing We Shall Overcome and you are walking into a building, that is not like some hijacking going on. That is like a very public act of deliberate and moderate civil disobedience. Non-violent. So what the Free Speech Movement showed was that when students have a large grievance and organized in a non-violent way against it, and also when they start to try to appeal to the faculty, because the Free Speech Movement was not just a student movement. That is another mistake people make. Campuses are not just students and administrators. Very important are the faculty. And what was really going on during the Free Speech Movement and my colleague Reggie Zelnik's article was about this, it was the administration and the students were competing with each other to win over the faculty. And in the end, the students won over the faculty because the administration was so blundering and repressive and worst of all was at the Greek theater when they took Mario off the stage by his tie. And they tried to gag him, basically gagging him. The administration kind of discredited itself. And the students, the faculty eventually on December 8th with their resolutions sided with the Free Speech Movement. And Kerr looked back on this when I interviewed him, the president of the university, looked back on the revolt as a faculty revolt as much as a student revolt. And he was right about that. The faculty, it took a long time because the faculty had loyalty to the university and to the administration. Faculty did not take over any buildings. They are not going to sit in, they generally have more loyalty to the institution and to the administration. But in the end they sided with the students. So I think what it showed is that if you really organize people and educate them on a big issue, and you use civil disobedience non-violently and as a last recourse... In other words, there is another sort of stereotype of the (19)60s that student protest is all about you go take over a building. That is not the way things worked in the Free Speech Movement. That was the last thing they were trying to do. They thought they could win without that. Civil disobedience caused people to get arrested, suspended, it is very painful. It is not the first thing that you do. It is really the last thing that you do. And they only used it when they absolutely felt like they needed to. And so, December 2nd to 3rd, Mario gave his famous speech and all that. They did take over the administration building, but that was because they felt like nothing else had worked. And the faculty eventually sided with them I think because despite the fact that for its time it was very militant, they were non-violent. They had a really important grievance and they spent the whole semester explaining it to people. It is not like these big dramatic moments that you should really focus on when you think about these moments, it is the long, difficult and even tiresome and boring, not boring, I would not say boring, the long and tiresome process of educating people about the issue that you are working on. SM (01:05:27): Like Tom Hayden does constantly. RC (01:05:29): Yeah. SM (01:05:30): With his Facebook page. RC (01:05:31): Yeah, so what I am saying is that what the Free Speech Movement showed is that students can have an influence in shaping history and as long as they organize intelligently, non-violently and in a sustained way and remember that they have to appeal to people outside of their own group, which is what the students did because they brought the faculty along with them. SM (01:05:55): It is interesting that Clark Kerr wrote that book, The Uses of the University, which was required reading in our graduate program at Ohio State. And that is the outline of the corporate world that we are talking about here. When I interviewed Bettina she said she really did not like Clark Kerr, but then in later years there was some situation where they were brought together for some reason. RC (01:06:17): Yeah, he wanted to get some feedback on his memoir, I think. SM (01:06:21): Yeah. And she said, "I really like the man." He was not as bad as he portrayed and of course he was fired by Reagan. RC (01:06:28): Well, I think the thing is that Kerr was basically in a lot of ways an admirable person. He had worked with Paul Taylor and Dorothy Lang, a very progressive background. And if you look at his master plan for California higher education, it was about providing accessible, cheap, higher education to the entire, no, universal higher education. SM (01:06:54): Wish it was still that way. RC (01:06:55): Yeah, I know. So in a way, he was caught between the right and the left. I do not think he was a bad person. He just made some pretty big mistakes in handling the protests. But look at his overall career, he was about... And even the stuff he was talking about, I think he was slightly misinterpreted by the Free Speech Movement. He was not uncritical of corporatization at the university. If you read that book carefully. He does have a kind of celebrating tone, but he does have some sort of... In fact, he is sarcastic at point. He suggests that there is some language in there that Hal Draper took him to task for. But he is sort of saying that, you could prostitute yourself and go too far in the quest for profits, a university could. So he was not uncritical. Oh, and by the way, I forgot to say that once the Free Speech Movement had shown that civil disobedience and students could be this effective force for change, I think that paved the way for what happened with the anti-war movement. That in fact, the Scranton Commission on Campus Unrest talked. RC (01:08:03): ... that in fact, the Scranton Commission on Campus Unrest talked about the free speech movement as the Berkeley invention, which is mass protest, civil disobedience. In other words, it showed that, and just in the semester before you have got all this mass protest on the antiwar issue, that students could be a force for social change. And if they used these tactics. SM (01:08:24): And of course those tactics were the tactics that Dr. King used, and he would- RC (01:08:27): Right, the civil rights movement. SM (01:08:28): Yeah. RC (01:08:28): They were bringing, I mean, really the free speech movement brought the tactics of the civil rights movement, the early civil rights movement and the black student movement onto college campuses. SM (01:08:36): And the teachings and- RC (01:08:37): Yeah. Yeah. If you think about, for example, the sit-in movement, that was a predominantly Black movement in (19)60, (19)61. So, really the people who first, the students who first used civil disobedience on college, no, the first college students to use mass civil disobedience were black students mostly, but they were not using them on campus. They were using them at lunch counters. Was using them as a tool to get rid of Jim Crow off campus. What the free speech movement did was take those tactics that had been so successful off campus, and used them on campus. SM (01:09:05): It is interesting, when I interviewed the late Gaylord Nelson, the senator from Wisconsin, talking about Earth Day, he had a meeting with I think David, well, some of the organizers of the moratorium, and did not want to step on their toes, so there was a partnership there from the get-go. And the importance of the teaching was very important at the very beginning of Earth Day. And Gaylord Nelson wanted to make sure, and he worked with them. Yeah, I know Michael Rossmann, boy, I wish I had met him. In his blog, and I had been reading a lot of stuff before I came here today, he made a comment that really upset him towards the end of his life saying that, "The media has always portrayed Berkeley as this liberal school from the West," And he disagreed with that. He said, "It was not a liberal school. The students were what made this happen. It was not a liberal school. Why do you think we were fighting for these issues?" Your thoughts on Michael? He was really critical of the perception that the media portrays about Berkeley then and now. RC (01:10:08): Well, I think it is complicated. I think there was a... It depends on what you are talking about with Berkeley. There was a core of civil liberties-oriented faculty at Berkeley, who had resisted the loyalty oath from the McCarthy era, and they were the same core people. Some of those were in the same core of people who were resisting the administration, repression during the free speech movement. Now, it is complicated because Strong, the Chancellor, and Kerr, as the president, were also in the loyalty oath. So, those were on the protest of liberty side. So, it is complicated. I do not really think I totally agree with him on the idea that the faculty, the administration, that I think there were... I would say that Berkeley was a progressive place. I mean, look, it was the first, and Rossmann was a part of it even before the free speech movement, back in the late (19)50s, SLATE had been formed. So, there was a kind of progressive tradition at Berkeley. SM (01:11:08): It was (19)58, I believe. RC (01:11:09): Yeah, that went on. And before that it was called TASC, Towards a New Student Community or something. And I think that was made possible in part by the fact that, first of all, Berkeley was aspiring to be a national institution, which meant that it got really top talent in terms of academics. We had some very progressive faculty who were emerging there, some people like Michael Rogan in Political Science, Ken Stamp and Leon Litwack in History, Charles Muscatine in the English department [inaudible] the loyalty oath, and then became a great educational reformer. So, I think that there was a liberal and left subculture there, both on the student body and the faculty. And because of the quality of the place, there was a cosmopolitanism about it, and it was a tradition of the Bay Area that went back all the way back to General Strike, about there being, and there were progressive institutions like KPFA. And so, there is a sort of a left subculture out there. But there is also, I think what he meant was that if you look at the elections, like the student government elections, it was very rare that the left got anywhere. There was a big frat and sorority culture. It was in some ways like a typical Midwestern or Southern campus with a large traditional collegiate culture. And right on the eve of the free speech movement, in fact, I think it was Art Goldberg had told Bettina, "Oh, they just got defeated again in the student government elections." This is sort of like the left did. [inaudible] like, "Oh, well, now this campus is so conservative. We will never get anywhere." And that was going into this myth of this Berkeley being this ultra-radical place, where it was easy to organize. I think that is what Michael meant. In the early (19)60s that was not the case. There was a large, very conventional culture to the place that this insurgency was sort of beginning to challenge. But it was the idea that the average Berkeley student was radical. This is just not true. In fact, I did this article on the chapter in my book on the free speech movement about the rank and file. It's called This is Their Fight, and had the [inaudible]. SM (01:13:16): It is the paperback [inaudible]. Yeah. RC (01:13:18): Yeah, that is right. That looked at the statements that the students made to the judge just before they were sentenced for their arrests for the sitting-in the Sproul Hall. And most of the students were not radicals. They were very reluctant to sit in. They did not want to break the law. They did not want to violate university regulations. They were just pretty moderate. But they felt they had no choice because they wanted to preserve free speech. So, if you look at the number of people who had a radical analysis, saying, "Well, universities are schools of corporations, and we need to resist imperialism and racism," who had this radical critique. It a very small minority. And in fact, if you think about there never would have been a mass movement at Berkeley if it could not reach beyond the small radical core. It had to be able to speak to mainstream students and to moderates and to liberals. And that is really what the free speech movement was able to do. So, I think that is what he meant. In other words, the idea that the Berkeley is this other, and it is like something out of Mars or something and all these aliens, that is how he got this movement. No. You got this movement because he was able to mobilize what was in many ways not a very unconventional campus to really, in fact, if you look at Larry Levine, his essay and the free speech book. He was a faculty member. He had just come from City College in New York when he came to Berkeley in the early (19)60s. And the first thing, the first demonstration he came into contact was not a politics, it was a panty raid. And he was saying, "Oh my God, what am I getting into?" What is this culture like? So, I think what Rossmann was right about was there was a dominant student culture that was setting the tone that was not politically radical or even particularly liberal, but that the movement kind of challenged that and sort of toppled that. SM (01:15:06): What is amazing is that some of the things that were happening in Berkeley were also happening in Harpur and SUNY Binghamton, because Dr. Dearing, within a year after I graduated in (19)70, retired and went up to Upstate Medical Center because his health had gone down. He died actually three years later, but they fired Professor Liebman in the Sociology Department for leading a protest in downtown Binghamton. And when they had the anniversary of the class of 1970, which was my class, this past year, a lot of them were not going back because what's happened is they're building it all up is this, the (19)60s and tie-dyes. And to me, not taking the seriousness of a lot of the issues that were facing the campus at that time. And my high school, when I was in high school, a graduate of SUNY Binghamton was fired from my high school. And that is the reason why I think I really wanted to go to Harpur College, because if somebody is fired for... Because they thought he was a communist. And this is the mid-(19)60s. So, it is a lot of connections between Binghamton and Berkeley in terms of the kinds of students and- RC (01:16:21): Oh, sure. SM (01:16:22): ... And the kinds of issues. And the president who was respected, Bruce Dearing, I do not know if you have ever heard of him. He was respected, but they kicked their OTC off. And when all the residence halls became, when the fraternities became so big, it really disturbed me because the college in the woods right now in SUNI Binghamton is basically all frat guys. And I lived there, and we would not have a frat guy around. They had to go to Cornell to be in fraternities. We banned them. They were banned at Binghamton. They had had to go to Cornell. And so, it is a lot of stuff kind of linked. We were a much smaller school, but we were kind of in, our heart was here. RC (01:17:03): Oh, sure. SM (01:17:03): No question about it. Mario Savio, to me, I mean, you have done an unbelievable book, and I really believe more Americans and young people need to know about this man. I state here, and I just want to put it in here for the record, and that is that who was he? Where did he come from? And just briefly, how did he rise to the top? And what I really like about him was that his motives were totally pure in so many ways, because he was... We were raised in at Ohio State University in the theme of student development, overcoming obstacles in one's life. And to know that he was a stutterer, and to be able to stand up in front of all those people and say what he did. And then also what I like about many of the leaders of the free speech movement you're bringing out so well, it's not about me. It is about us. RC (01:18:09): Yeah. SM (01:18:11): And he did not care about a political career. He cared about an issue that was so, see, that is what I want. That is what to me was the (19)60s was about. Just your thoughts on Mario and- RC (01:18:21): Oh, yeah. Well, I think that Mario basically came at it from a moral position. He came up, he was the oldest boy in a Catholic home, and he was going to be, he had a religious sensibility. He was going to be a priest. And eventually, he did not go that direction. But I think in a certain sense you could see that same moral sensibility as expressed here. He had a very strong sense of right and wrong. And he felt that, particularly with the civil rights movement, he saw what happened at Birmingham where people were being attacked, kids were being, black kids were being attacked by police dogs and fire hoses, that this was really wrong. He felt both shamed and inspired by those protests, ashamed that America would do this and inspired to try to do something to help. And so, I think he had a very strong impetus towards to help those who were being oppressed. Even before the civil rights movement, he had been not before the civil harassment, before he became involved in the summer, he went to Mexico and did poverty work to help poor peasants in Mexico. I think that he felt that one had to take a stand to stop something that would have, to stop evil. And that is what he was really doing. He felt in a way the civil rights movement was, even though he was not religious anymore, he felt that it was, that racism was sinful. And that the attempt to rid of it, to get rid of it was almost like God showing His hand in the world. Even though he was not religious, he still talked about it way, kind of a post-Catholic way of speaking. He had not lost that kind of way of thinking about things. He was pretty broken with his church. And I think that when you think about Savio, that is really what he was about. It was saying that we had to take a moral stance to stop evil and to make democracy possible. And then he went down. So, he became active in the Bay Area civil rights movement, got arrested. When he was in jail, that was about the Sheraton-Palace to try to stop the discrimination in the hotel. And while he was in jail for that, he found out about this Mississippi Freedom Summer and decided, "Well, I am knew tried to go down there." And he did. And he went down there and saw, there, look, in the Bay Area, if you got arrested, it could be inconvenient. Hold on a second. SM (01:20:41): Yep. RC (01:20:43): Sitting in against racism, you can get arrested or possibly hit over the head or something. You could get hurt. But mostly it is about you could get arrested. In Mississippi, you're risking your life. When he was on his way down to Mississippi, in Oxford, Mississippi getting trained by SNCC and the cultural organizers, they found out that the three civil rights workers were missing, Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman. And so, it was really clear from, Bob Moses said, "Do not kid yourself. They are not coming back. And nobody will think any less of you if you just decide, 'Look, I do not want to put my life on the line.'" And the amazing thing is, nobody left. They all went, because they felt like this is really the most important thing happening in America, if not in the world. We are going to stop this pattern of racist violence and decent and disenfranchisement. This is going to stop now, and we are going to help make it happen in collaboration with the black community. It is not that we, mostly white college students are going to save the day. We are going to show solidarity. And down there, this was a movement that was led by black people, by heroic student organizers of African American descent and former students like Bob Moses, and being supported by people within the African American community of Mississippi. And when he was there, he saw, I mean, this is a whole other level of activism because you are risking your life, but you are only there for the summer. Those African Americans who are down there, they are risking their life and their property and their whole futures in a way that is not just the summer. In other words, you go to sign up to vote, and you could lose your land or you could lose your life, and you could have this pattern of harassment that goes on for years, right? And so, what Mario began to see was this is a really a deep and heavy-duty thing. And they were talking about which side are you on? Are you trying to really make America a more democratic place, and what are you willing to do about it? And so, when it came back to Berkeley, and he had the memories of that, he felt when these administrations are trying to cut down the free speech area that made it possible for Berkeley to be a recruiting ground for this kind of activism, the idea is, "Well, look, we were not just kidding down there. That was not some summer lark. This is serious. People down there are risking their lives for their freedom, and you are going to tell me that you are going to stop me from doing this?" And so, essentially what it was about was the solidarity that you're going to take a stance. And also, there is no pretense. There's no jargon. It is very plainspoken. He called it a Jimmy Stewart kind of approach to oratory. We are not talking about the bourgeoisie or the proletariat or high theory. We are talking about just right or wrong, and this is wrong, and we have got to do something about it. And that was not just something that applied to Berkeley and to the free speech issue, but became a lifelong thing for him. That is, when you see people, he came, why did he, he really did not want to be a politician. He was not a politician. He was a brilliant philosophy and science student. He was meant to be a professor or an award-winning scientist. And he wanted to be able to focus on that. But it kept happening that things kept happening in society that he could not put his head in the sand. So, when Reagan is funding this terrorist war in Nicaragua, or the United States is supporting a government in El Salvador that has death squads, or the Apartheid, the United States is subsidizing Apartheid or the anti-immigrants, anti-affirmative action stuff was happening in California in the 1990s. He felt, "I have got to take a stand against this." Or even in his home university at Sonoma State, when he was, really the struggle that he died in the midst of, it was, if we raise these fees, like what is going on now, then the working-class kids are not going to be able to come here, and education should be accessible. So, I think with Mario, what it was really about was a feeling that, "I need to stand up for what's right." And I think that did have an effect on him as a person that I think that it helped him in some way. That was not why he did it, but it did help him work his way through. He had a very hard childhood. He'd been abused as a child. And I think that affected his speech. He had a very bad stammer. And in a way, the liberation of the students, people talk about the (19)60s, being able to find your voice. In a way that was what it was for him. He found his voice by trying to give voice to others by trying to help others be free of their oppression. He became, here you had somebody who could not speak as a child. And now he was a great orator. And to me, that is really symbolic of what the (19)60s at its best was about, was about standing up to help others, and in the process of trying to change and help free others, you are self-freeing yourself, because racism was not just about black people being hurt by it. It also hurt us as a society. It hurt whites as well. It hurt all the generations that were coming up, being raised on intolerance and hatred. So, I think that for Mario, and it also had to do with, it was just this idea that when things were, when something was oppressive and unjust, you have a responsibility to try to do something about it. Even if you are busy doing something else, even if you would rather be doing something else, even if it does not, if it is not good for your career and certainly not good for your health. And in a sense, he died. He lived because of it. In a way, he died because of it too. He died. He had been involved in all these anti-affirmative, in his defense of affirmative action, in challenging those valid initiatives against affirmative action and against immigrant rights. And so, he kind of exhausted himself in that and the [inaudible] battle, and he had a weak heart and he died in the midst of the struggle. His wife thinks that he was so compassionate and so concerned and so activist that you could say that he worked himself to death. Now, that may or may not be the case, but the point is think about how that compares to the stereotype about people from the (19)60s who sell out, who [inaudible] out their politics. It is the exact opposite of that. SM (01:27:11): Yep, [inaudible] RC (01:27:12): Yeah, he never cashed in on any of this. It was really about, "Look, we do not need some great leader to do this. We can do this ourselves." And that was another thing. That is one of the reason why he stepped out of leadership. He did not feel like, you should not need a celebrity leader. You should be able to organize movements where, if you are a good organizer, you will organize your way out of a job because people should be able to organize themselves. SM (01:27:35): That is the Benjamin Barber mentality. Benjamin Barber has written the books on citizenship and the nation that requires a strong president. Well, we want a strong president. But when you have stronger citizens, that is the greater democracy. RC (01:27:50): Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think that is the idea of participatory democracy, which Mario kind of embodied. SM (01:27:55): Here, I know we are getting out close to the end of our time here, and I have got, we are not going to finish the questions, but is there a connection between the free speech movement and the following events? And I will just list these events. Kent State, 1970, Columbia in (19)68, Harvard Square, the March on Washington in (19)63, the moratorium of (19)69, Earth Day in 1970, Chicago Convention in (19)68. RC (01:28:22): Well, I think that- SM (01:28:23): Any connections there between the free speech movement? RC (01:28:26): Well, I think that just the later events in terms of protest, the idea that you can make a difference by going out in the streets and protesting, I think those are all, but they're all very different events. So, I would say that I would not attribute everything to the free speech movement. I think that there is a kind of way in which there is this ethos of being able to make change through social protests that is connected in all these things. And the later student events you are talking about the idea that the generation, that young people can make a difference, that if you think about those later events you are pointing to. I think there definitely is a connection there. But I would not want to attribute every, in other words, I think if you think about it, the civil rights movement helped to make the free speech movement possible. The free speech movement helped to make the anti-war movement possible. The anti-war movement helped to make the women's movement, the gay liberation movement, environmental movements possible. So, I think there is a connection there between this sort of ethos of social criticism, social protest that the free speech movement helped to promote. But I would not say it was by itself. I think there was these cycles or this pattern of activism that when you get people in motion and they have an impact, then that in turn, on one issue, that in turn can affect them on other issues. SM (01:29:44): I will try to make these brief here, but one of the things about- RC (01:29:48): We can also finish on the phone too. I mean, in other words, we do not have to. In other words, we can always pick it up again. There is not really, you do not have to feel like you have to get it in. I mean, I am available. We can always- SM (01:29:58): Well, this is fascinating. Your students are very lucky to have you because I am a firm believer that students need to know their history, and they do not know enough of it. I have had too many students tell me that the Vietnam War was before World War II, and I have heard stories still that in high school, teachers, at least particularly those that were going to high school in the 1990s, that they do not... Their classes stop in the (19)60s. They do not go beyond. They stopped the history. It is like me when I was in school, it was John Kennedy stops at the Nuclear Test-Ban Treaty or something like that. But the thing, this is a question that, because you talk about Allan Blum and the closing of the American mind. You have got the David Horwitz’s writing all these books because he went from a liberal to a conservative. And political correctness is something that was so prevalent on college campus in the (19)80s and (19)90s, and some say it is still there today. What are your thoughts on those issues? Particularly, I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and Phyllis Schlafly and David Horowitz both believe that the student protestors of the (19)60s are now running today's universities, and they are also teaching the students of today. They run all the studies courses, women's studies, the black studies, the gay and lesbian studies, environmental studies, Asian American studies, Native American studies, Latino studies. They are all the liberals, the left from the (19)60s, and they are only giving one side. So, that is the Schlafly’s and the Horowitz’s. And then you have got Barney Frank, who is a Democrat. He wrote a book called Speaking Frankly, which I think is a very good book, way before all this issue of the environment. And he talks in there about the fact that after the (19)72 election where people supported McGovern, that the Democratic Party will never survive if it cannot stay away from the anti-war people. It has got to make the separation. The Democratic Party has to go a different direction. It cannot be the Teddy Kennedy types. It has got to be a totally different direction. So, here is a Democrat, powerful, even then, a gay Democrat saying that, "We must separate ourselves from the anti-war and the activists of the (19)60s within the Democratic Party." You have got Schlafly and Horowitz saying that today's universe, you have got political correctness saying that as a result of what happened, maybe starting with the free speech movement and the protests and so forth. RC (01:32:34): Well, let me tell you- SM (01:32:34): Gone the other direction. RC (01:32:35): Yeah, I mean, first of all, I mean, I would say this, that I think it is very simplistic to say the university is all one thing or another, just like I was saying before with the boomer generation. It is a very large, complex thing. I mean, on the one hand, what about, I mean, if you look at the University of California, it is a great example. I mean, BP had this huge center for corporate, as what's his name was saying, David Kirk was saying in this book on Shakespeare, Einstein, and the Bottom Line that Mario, by talking about the corporatization of the university was being prophetic. A campus where with the dean of the business school is called the Bank of America Dean. So, the idea, what I am saying to you is that you could make, they focus on a few liberal studies. What about, who has the computer science departments? Who has the business schools? Who is heading the law schools? I mean, the idea that the university was headed by a bunch of radicals, then how could you explain the incredible corporatization of the university? That is such a simplification. The university does all these things that are pillars of the computer revolution, of corporate capitalism. To make it like the university's all one thing, that it's been taken over by radicals, is you are lopping off two-thirds of the university, and the ones, parts of the university that have most of the money. You know what I mean? Why would the universities that, if they are on the left, why would they even have business schools? Where does that come from? So, I think that it is such an oversimplification to judge. You are judging the entire universities by a few disciplines or departments that would lean to the left because of the nature of those departments or disciplines. I think that is really simplistic. I mean, I do not really think of the universities as, I mean, look, if you look, there is a whole literature about the universities, including this one. We had a TA strike that crushed the union. The universities are not being run by radicals. I mean, that is absurd. There is an influence in terms of ideas of people on the left and liberals, sure. That is the case. The majority of academics are liberals, but in terms of, it is such an overstatement to act as if the university is somehow part of the revolutionary left when the university, how do you explain all the stuff about corporatization? And look at the critique by Sheila Slaughter who look at the university as corporate capitalism embodied. I mean, there is a struggle. The university is a contradictory place. Some of the people who were student radicals have gone into academia, but there's lots more people who were never, like you are saying, the majority of people in the boomer generation were not radicals. So, the idea that they have taken over the university is really absurd. SM (01:35:22): Yeah. And my proposition and just your thoughts on this maybe, I have got two more questions, and we will end here, is that today's universities are afraid of the term activism, activists. Volunteerism is, 95 percent of the students are involved in volunteering. A lot of it's required, but a lot of them are doing it. And that is very good. Some people say that is activism. Well, I do believe that is short-term activism. I am talking about the mentality of the Mario Savio’s, the Tom Hayden’s, the Bettina Aptheker’s, which is, "It is my life. It is part of who I am. It is part of my very being. It is 24-7. It is not two days a week at two hours." And I think you are right on that. I think a lot of the people that run today universities are boomers who were not activists, who had the experience of being on campuses and seeing what activism does to a campus, knowing that we are in tough times. And if there's any protests, maybe students will not come to the college. RC (01:36:17): Well, if you look at the disengagement with the students, like Dick Flacks has got the study about California freshman. SM (01:36:21): I am interviewing him. Yeah. RC (01:36:23): Yeah. I mean, if the universities are about making students radical activists, they are doing a pretty poor job. Right? I mean, because you can run academic programs that just are about academics and do not have an activist ethos. So, I think that, if what David Horowitz and Phyllis Schlafly were saying, "Look, for God's sake, we have two wars going on," right? Two, not one, two. Where is the mass protest? Obviously, if the left had taken over college campuses and was there to build mass movements, they are not doing a very good job. Right? So, I think it is a very simplistic view. I mean- SM (01:36:56): Do you think they are afraid of that? Do you think that the universities, people may be the board of trustees or the type of administrators are afraid of activism because it brings back memories of the (19)60s? It could happen again. RC (01:37:09): No. I think it has been so long since they had a mass protest. I do not think that is something that is on their minds. I think that if it came, if it emerged, they probably would feel that way. But right now, I mean, there is also, remember there is a new generation here. There is a 21st century generation of students that is very influenced by computers that may not be, you may be thinking about this too much in a 20th century vein. In other words, that there is a whole new way of looking at things, and activism has been reduced to pushing a button on a computer, which does not necessarily really change things, but people might think that it does. SM (01:37:44): Brought a picture up. RC (01:37:46): That is right. So what I am saying, saying is- it is not necessarily the case that if there is activism, that it would take the form of the (19)60s, or anybody's worried about that, in a way. So, I am just saying I think that the idea that the university are breeding grounds of activism is, it may be in some ways a more interesting place if that was the case. But it is not true. On the other hand, there are books that show that, let me qualify that, there is this new book that came out by Mark Warren, Fire in the Heart. He looks at lots of people who are involved in [inaudible] activists today, and says that people who are activists, some of them did come through those programs that Phyllis Schlafly and those guys are complaining about. And I think, in other words, but that is only a minority. In other words, you can learn to oppose racism and become activists on the college campuses. You can. But that is only a small group that is. SM (01:38:40): Wow, this is interesting. I thought I was up on books. RC (01:38:45): Yeah. Well, yeah. SM (01:38:46): You are really up on them. My last question here, and I asked a little of this- RC (01:38:48): Let me just tell my student I will be right with her. SM (01:38:49): Yep. RC (01:39:00): So I do not lose her. SM (01:39:01): Okay. RC (01:39:01): Hey, how you doing? I will be out in about a minute, okay? [inaudible] Okay, sure. SM (01:39:04): Okay. What did the university learn from the student protest, particularly the free speech movement? What did the university learn from the free speech movement itself? And how has the university changed for the better? And what areas does the university structure still exemplify what the free speech movement was fighting all about in (19)64, (19)65? In other words, is Mario was here today in this room, and I was asking him this question, your response may be different from his, but would he be positive or negative? Or where would he be? RC (01:39:33): Well, actually, he did think that there had been some progress made because he was talking, in the last chapter of the book, he talks about Sonoma State, that the university was not all white anymore. And so in fact, he felt the university was retreating from being free in terms of money at just the wrong time. Just as the university was getting to be desegregated, and there were people of color coming, that all of a sudden it was thousands of dollars. And some people would say, "Well, is that an accident?" Back in the (19)60s when most students are white, it was pretty much free in most places, many places in the public universities. Now that it is probably gotten desegregated to some degree, now it is expensive. It is an interesting argument. So, I think in that sense, he would feel like he felt like there had been progress made in terms of accessibility to higher education. And also, I mean, definitely in terms of free speech, the university, now most universities allow students student rights, and even spread to the high schools through the Tinker decision. So, I think that had changed. I think in terms of the, but the basic issues about what the critique of higher education in terms of how much do we care about teaching? How much do we care about that function of the university serving the poor, that still has not, that is still there. In other words, that university is still about getting big money and trying to service corporate America and the defense establishment. Its top priority is not how can we wage a war on poverty? That is not what is at the top of the agenda for universities. It is like my university, where are they rushing to build a campus? Not in some starving Third World country, but in oil-rich Abu Dhabi. So, I think the idea is that the basic issue about what is the service mission of the university? Who is the university serving? That that has not really changed as much as people like Mario would like it. He thought the university should be a center of the attempt to make America more democratic and more egalitarian. And that would mean giving students of color and working class students more access to higher education. That would mean building an ethos among students that would think, "Okay, how can we change society?" And also if you are going into academics, how can you think- RC (01:42:03): And also if you are going into academics, how can you think critically about society? In other words like generating new ideas to make the society a more just, not just about demonstrating, but okay, what are we learning about our social problems through our studies that we can then act on later on? SM (01:42:16): I think course of this, that the whole issue of fundraising in higher education today is a major issue. We talk about links to corporations, but at the school that I just left, and I know this is the case at several other schools, they had cut back on student life activities and in some places, they are very observant of the fact that if a particular speaker or form or program could affect in any way, the dollar flows from donors, they are a little hesitant to support it. And so by they have ways of controlling it in subtle ways by cutting off the amount of funds. So they cannot bring in controversial speakers. And I think that is a big concern about free speech issues. It's done very subtly as we see racism still exists in our society in a very subtle way. RC (01:43:07): Oh, I agree that the universities do not want to... That dynamic is still there. What I meant about free speech was if students want to organize on an issue, people would know you cannot come down the same way that they did in (19)64. You cannot say that. So... SM (01:43:19): I have a few more questions, but maybe- RC (01:43:21): You can do it on the phone. SM (01:43:22): ... 30 minutes. 30 minutes [inaudible]. RC (01:43:22): Sure. Sure. SM (01:43:22): But I really appreciate it. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Robert Cohen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cohen, Robert, 1955 May 21- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; New York University; Cohen, Robert, 1955 May 21--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Robert Cohen is a professor at New York University, where he teaches History, Social Studies, Education, and Human Development. He received his B.A. at SUNY Buffalo and his PhD. at the University of California at Berkeley. Cohen also writes books, most of which focus on either history or people as a whole. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.40a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.40b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 199:21 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7a01c9700dfd7e49241a95c334258f7f.jpg 1f37270d48fddbd2c6d9f3d701d184bc https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b0caa59d6c07c6de15fd224ff0681b36.mp3 a2028080b873b58b312144a5b366c67e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-12-10 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Roger Clegg Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Roger Clegg is the President and General Counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity. He was the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for both the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. He specializes in legal issues arising from civil rights laws including immigration and bilingual education. Clegg received his Bachelor's degree from Rice University and is a graduate of Yale University Law School. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6531,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Roger Clegg is the President and General Counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity. He was the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for both the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. He specializes in legal issues arising from civil rights laws including immigration and bilingual education. Clegg received his Bachelor's degree from Rice University and is a graduate of Yale University Law School. </span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Bill Buckley; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Watergate; Richard Nixon; Counter Culture; Hippies; Yippies; The Black Panthers; Baby boom generation; President Obama.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Vietnam War; Bill Buckley; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Kent State; Watergate; Richard Nixon; Counter Culture; Hippies; Yippies; The Black Panthers; Baby boom generation; President Obama</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 160:15 Subject LCSH Lawyers; Center for Equal Opportunity; Clegg, Roger--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Roger Clegg Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 10 December 2009 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing. One, two. I was not checking. First off, thank you very much for participating in this project. RC (00:00:21): Sure. SM (00:00:21): First question I would like to ask is, when you think of the (19)60s what is the first thing that comes to your mind? RC (00:00:29): I think of unrest, I guess. The protests, the anti-war protests, civil rights movement, riots, a very unsettled time. I think of the politics. I think of it as being a very political, politicized decade. I should say that I was born in 1955, so by the end of the (19)60s I was certainly politically aware, and was becoming interested in following politics. I was only five or six years old, so less so. SM (00:01:32): How did you become who you are? I have been asking this probably for the last 50 people that I have been interviewing. How did you become who you are as a person? Was there some magic moment in your life when you were in high school, college where you kind of knew the direction you were going, or the thought you had? Was there anything during that time when Boomers were young, and you were right in the middle of the Boomers in terms of (19)55 because it goes from (19)46 to (19)64. RC (00:02:07): I think in terms of my professional life and what I decided to do as a career, I have always been interested in politics, in history. I do not think that there was one particular moment where it dawned on me that this was something interesting. This is something that I have always been interested in. I think that I have always been a conservative with a libertarian streak. That is been true for a long time as well. And so, you put those two together and I am now a conservative lawyer. I do not think that there was a particular defining moment. That was something that was part of my makeup early on. I did not always want to be a lawyer. I tell people that the course that I took in college that persuaded me to be a lawyer was biochemistry. Up until then, I was thinking also medical school. I just decided, this is my junior year, that I really was more interested and more comfortable, better at political science and history, and things like that. That made the decision for me that I was going to go to law school. SM (00:04:15): Did you have role models when you were young? RC (00:04:18): I was going to say that it will be interesting to see if you have other people that give you this answer. For conservatives of my generation, I think that a lot of them had to have been influenced by Bill Buckley. He was a hero of mine. At that time, I think that there were not a lot of prominent popular culture conservatives. He was really it. Even if there had been others, he was clearly I think a star. I early on starting reading him, subscribing to National Review, watching him on Firing Line. I think he was a very influential person for me. Later on, I read other conservatives too. When I went to law school, one of my professors was Robert Bork. I was older then. This was the late (19)70s by then. When I was coming of age, Buckley was I think the person who was most influential. Obviously, in my own family, I do not want to ignore my parents. My grandfather was somebody who was also... He was not a lawyer, but he was very interested in politics and I had a close relationship with him. In terms of people outside my family, I would have to say it was Buckley. In fact, I remember when not long after I had come to work here, a guy who was also here left to go to work for National Review. I called him and said, "Look, I would love to shake hands with Wayne Buckley. Do you ever see him? It does not have to be a dinner or anything like that. I just want to meet him." He said, "Well, Buckley is getting older now. He does not come to Washington a lot, but he is going to be in Washington for this event at..." We were talking about ISI before and he was going to be I think honored at some ISI event. He said, "I can introduce you there." I got there and it was this huge event. This was before cellphones and all that. Stupidly, I had not arranged ahead of time where I was going to meet my friend. Anyway, what I decided to do was, everybody had to come through this one entrance and get checked in on the guest list. I got there early so I thought, well I will just hang out here and keep my eye peeled. Sure enough, Buckley came by. And so, I just kind of got in line behind him. At some point he turned around and I stuck my hand out. He was so... This was very not characteristic of him. He was so gracious. I said, "Hi, Roger Clegg. I write for National Review," which I was. I was a contributing editor for National Review Online. He just said, "Oh, hello Roger," and stuck out his hand. "It's good to see you. Have you met my wife? Here is my wife. Have you met my son?" Chris Buckley was with him too and everything. Anyway, that was my big moment, meeting my [inaudible]- SM (00:09:03): He came to Westchester University. We had him there, and we had him in Phillips Library for the lecture. He was a cool speaker. He was fantastic. He was very tired though. The issue that we had was the auditorium was very hot. It was before they did those renovations. During the program he said, "Can you turn the heat down?" Because it was really affecting him because you could see his face was getting red and everything. RC (00:09:28): How old was he? SM (00:09:30): We're talking mid (19)90s. Mid (19)90s, and he was a major lecturer there too. He was fantastic. When you think of the Boomer generation, what are some of the characteristics, the positive or the negative qualities, when you look at this 74 million population group? RC (00:09:51): Obviously, a group that big it is dangerous to generalize. There is all kinds of people in there. Yeah, when people think of the (19)60s and the Boomers, they think of I guess hippies, and the people who stuck out more. Obviously, not all Boomers were hippies and protesters, and things like that. That is what first comes to mind. I do not know whether it is fair to make generalizations like this. Obviously, we are thinking out loud here. Of course, the events that helped I think sort of shape that generation was the Vietnam War. And of course, a lot of people were understandably skeptical about the war, particularly when it was their own life that was going to be at stake. I think that for technological reasons, with the invention of the pill, the sexual revolution was something else that happened then. For some reason, drug use became more popular then too. These were all things that I associate with the Boomers, and these are all from my perspective are all negative things. I think that the sexual revolution was bad, drug use was bad. I think that the Vietnam War was badly run, but not a, I think what Reagan said, a noble cause. I think that a lot of the anti-war movement was very noble. As I say, all of those are making generalizations about a generation which are generalizations. There were obviously lots of people whom did not participate in the sexual revolution, who did not buy into the counterculture, and it is drug use and all that, and who served honorably and uncomplainingly in Vietnam. SM (00:14:04): Some people criticize the Boomer generation as they say that only 15 percent of that generation were involved in any sort of activism. 85 percent were not. I have read in books. When you figure that there is 74 million and 15 percent were involved in some sort of activism in some way, that is a lot of people. RC (00:14:26): Right. SM (00:14:28): I think sometimes when it is brought up, it is brought up in a way to make it look negative as opposed to looking at the final numbers of those individuals. You are right, other people have told me that it is very hard to generalize 74 million. When you could have 20 people in the room and two are really involved in activism [inaudible]. One of the interesting things that came out, I know when Newt Gingrich came into power in 1994, I read some of his things, speeches and so forth, he made some pretty sharp attacks on the (19)60s generation, the Boomers generation, is a lot of the reasons why we have a lot of problems in our society was a breakdown of the family, the divorce rate, the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority. Even going into the area of victimization. I am not saying he said that, but other people. Then George Will, whenever he gets a chance in his newspaper articles or [inaudible], I have got his books. He will have these little commentaries about this generation in which he is a part, and really make it kind of the same way, that there is more negative than positive. When you hear people like Newt Gingrich, George Will, and others attack this generation for a variety of reasons, [inaudible] problems as they enter society, how do you respond to that? RC (00:15:53): I think that... I assume that they are talking not about every person, but about the sort of social trends that marked the (19)60s. It is certainly true that there are... It is sloppy to suggest, if it is being suggested, that... I will not say sloppy. I assume that that is what they are talking about, and I think that anybody would have to agree that there are problems with saying, "These are things that went on the (19)60s. There were a lot of people, Baby Boomers, that supported these things. Therefore, the whole generation should be criticized." There were lots of people who did not share the zeitgeist. Conversely, a lot of the people who were not Baby Boomers also share some of the blame. These folks are following... The hippies had their older role models, Noam Chomsky, or Herbert Marcuse, and people like that. They were not Baby Boomers. SM (00:17:43): [inaudible]. RC (00:17:45): Yeah, so... Norman Mailer, so forth. These people were not Baby Boomers, so you have got to blame them too. On the other hand, I guess that you cannot let people off the hook just because they themselves maybe were not direct participants. Edmund Burke, I think, said that "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for a good man to do nothing." If your friends are using drugs or protesting, or draft-dodging or whatever, and you do not condemn them or ostracize them, or if you smile and nod, well you are part of the problem. The other thing that is going on though is that people like to simplify history, and put things in categories. That is just part of what... This is very pleasing to think of history in terms of decades and generations. We have the (19)20s, and we think of it as being... Everything that happened in the (19)20s has to fit into this model of the Roaring (19)20s and the (19)30s, and so forth. We do that for the (19)60s too, even though there were things going on in the (19)60s that maybe do not really fit in with that model. And by the same token, we do the same thing with generations. We have the Greatest Generation, we have the Boomers, we have Generation X, and so forth, even though those kinds of generalizations are dangerous too. One thing about the Greatest Generation which gets very good press these days is they delay... Well, if you buy into this, you have got the Greatest Generation, and then you have these no-count Baby Boomers. Well, who raised the Baby Boomers? It was the Greatest Generation. So, if you buy into this they... One thing about the Greatest Generation is they must not have been very good parents, or there was some kind of failure there. Anyway. SM (00:20:51): Yeah, especially one of the qualities that WWII generation supposedly had was to make sure their sons and daughters were not lacking for things, because they went through the Depression, they went through a horrible war, and they did not want their kids to go through what they went through. They gave them everything, but they still rebelled. They did not rebel in the 1950s, but we are going to get into that a minute, the (19)50s. What are your thoughts on the movements? One of the qualities that is often defined when the Boomer generation is all the movements that were either started, or there was a carry-on mentality. Of course, the civil rights movement was already taking place in the (19)50s, and by the time the earliest Boomer is 46, they were like 18, 19. Many of them did go south though in the summer of (19)63. Talk about the anti-war movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, and the environmental movement. And I know there was even the disability movement was really starting to fledge around that time. Your thoughts on all these movements that came about during this time frame? These movements have been carrying on into today. Are these movements good, bad, or different? Your thoughts on the movements. RC (00:22:12): Again, I think you have to look at them individually, and you have to look at them over time. Some of the movements might have started out okay but then went off the rails, or developed splinter groups that were more problematic than the original movement. I am going to just give you a few examples. You have the anti-war movement, and they are... I guess I would be maybe the least sympathetic with it, particularly to the extent that it became Wallace and even revolutionary with the weathermen and the SDS, and so forth. That was the movement that I think was misconceived to begin with because I think that it was a poor... While the Vietnam War was not well-run, the basic idea of resisting communism was a good idea. Certainly, to suggest that people should dodge the draft, that not only was the war a bad idea, but that the Communists were right, and that it's an okay thing to hamper the war efforts in the United States, all of which is truly more extreme parts of the anti-war movement, I think reprehensible. The other extreme though, I think it is difficult not to be very sympathetic with the civil rights movement with respect to equality for African Americans fighting Jim Crow and segregation. I think that that movement and the Boomers who supported that, it is very... I think that they were right. That said though, some of the... There were excesses later on. Excesses is too gentle a word. The riots, the Black Panthers, things like that were reprehensible too. Feminism, I think it is more of a mixed bag. I think that changing the law so that women have more opportunities was a good thing. On the other hand, there were... I think that the feminist movement came to denigrate traditional female roles which I think that is not okay. There is nothing wrong with being a stay-at-home mom. I think that there are some feminists who suggest there is. You just sort of have to go through each of these movements. I think that some of the other ethnic movements, it's a bad thing for Chicanos to be discriminated against because they are Chicanos, just as it is wrong for African Americans to be discriminated against because they are African Americans. On the other hand, that does not justify violence. It does not justify quotas, racial preferences. Those things are bad. Gay rights, again I would be more nuanced than saying that well it was good or it was bad. I think certainly people should not be beaten up or brutalized because of their sexual orientation. On the other hand, I think that there is nothing wrong with individuals believing, as I do, that having sex with people of the same gender is immoral. That does not mean that we put those people in jail or beat them up, but it does mean that it is okay to say publicly "This is a bad lifestyle," and that it is okay to say that marriage is something that is between men and women, not between two people of the same sex. When you talk about was the gay rights movement justified or not, well it depends on what the specific aim of a particular part of the movement is at a given time. SM (00:29:14): How about the Native American movement, because that was really strong. It identified a lot with some of the more radical elements within the anti-war movement, because of Wounded Knee, and the takeover at Alcatraz, and Dennis Banks and Russell Means. RC (00:29:33): They actually killed people. I think that that is... I do not think that people should violate the law, and they certainly should not kill people, and they should not kill law enforcement officers, which the extreme elements of the Native American movement did. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with consciousness rising and protesting. People are being mistreated because of their ethnic group, that is wrong. There is nothing wrong protesting that and trying to change the laws to reflect that. SM (00:30:32): In 1970, Earth Day happened, and that really put this environmental movement... Of course, we are talking about Copenhagen, and all these issues, Dennis Hayes, and Gaylord Nelson, the Senator, was linked to it. I did not know until I interviewed a guest last week that Dennis Hayes and Gaylord Nelson had to meet with the anti-war movement. They had to meet with the leaders of the anti-war movement before they had Earth Day to make sure that what they were doing would not take away from what the anti-war movement was all about. They were liberals both in terms of bringing this about. Just your thought on that because this has carried on, and this curated an unbelievable divide. Just your thoughts on it, because that really is directly related to a lot of Boomers. RC (00:31:21): Yeah, well once again, I draw this sanction between the vile and a law-abiding, or violent versus the non-violent, and the law-following versus the law-breaking parts of these movements. Killing people or threatening people, or blowing up things because you do not like their environmental policies I think is reprehensible. I think that the... SM (00:32:18): I am always checking to make sure, and it is. RC (00:32:26): Some of the aims of the environmental movement I am very sympathetic with. I think that there was too much pollution that was allowed, and that passing laws to restrict, that pollution made a lot of sense. On the other hand, I think that there are reasonable people who can differ about- RC (00:33:03): More people can differ about a couple of things. One is, how bad the pollution is and what its effects are. And then, also about what kind of government regulation makes sense. We cannot just ban all pollutions because a lot of people would starve to death if we did that, literally. The pesticides, and industrialization, and farming, this is how we feed people. And just a flat out ban on any kind of technology that changes the environment is clearly not something that makes any sense. So, it becomes a line drawing problem of where are we going to draw the line? How much pollution is too much? And, should the government be in the business of micromanaging the private sector or should they try to create proper incentives? And conversely, should they ensure that there are not perverse incentives where people are actually encouraged to exploit resources or pollute. And again, there is this whole managed working environment division of the Justice Department. And reasonable people can disagree about this, there's this whole tragedy of the commons and if there is a role for government. But, I think reasonable people can differ about what the role of the government should be. SM (00:35:22): One of the big groups that came out of this rule was Amnesty International. And boy, they will confront ships and they will try to stop them. RC (00:35:29): Maybe you mean Greenpeace. SM (00:35:31): I mean, yeah, Greenpeace. Excuse me, Greenpeace. RC (00:35:35): Right. Right. Yeah, right. Yeah. SM (00:35:35): They will risk their lives to save whales and things like that. But that came as a direct result of, I think of... This generation oftentimes thought themselves as the most unique generation in American history. Its uniqueness. I can remember when I was young in college, a lot of students felt that way because they were going to change everything. They were going to end war, they were going to bring peace, harmony, change the world for the better, and be different than any other generation that preceded them or probably will follow them. So, this uniqueness became a mentality within many of them when they were young. And many of them still have it as they approach (19)60 because of the times they lived in. I have noted that students that I have worked with over the years, whether they be generation Xers, or those born between 1965 and I believe 1992 or something like that, and now you have got the millennials, which is the younger group. I think they were born, excuse me, they were (19)82, excuse me, millennials yeah, until (19)82. And, a lot of the issues that generation Xers had with boomers is that they got tired of hearing about what it was like when they were young. Or, the other extreme, I wish I lived then because there were causes I could get involved in. You had a cause. We do not seem to have any. Now, that was a couple years ago. Your thoughts about this uniqueness attitude that many of the boomers seem to have. RC (00:37:14): Well, I am skeptical of that. I think that one thing that distinguishes liberals from conservatives is, and of course I am a conservative, so I am biased, but I think that conservatism is inherently a little more modest and constrained in its vision of how much any individual and how much any generation can know. And, how much we should be willing to say that, "Well, we do not care about how things have been done. We do not care about other people's opinion. We have figured this out and we know the right way to proceed." I think that that, yeah, I mean, Thomas Sowell has written about this- SM (00:38:38): I like him. RC (00:38:39): ...in a book called, Conflict of Visions. SM (00:38:39): Yeah, I like him. RC (00:38:42): Yeah. And the whole point of that book is there are these two separate, two very distinct visions. And, it goes back, this is sort of a summary of Edmond Burke or Friedrich Hayek. And so, I think that for any generation to say that, "Well, look, we have figured this out. We're unique. Everybody before us, they had it wrong. Everybody that came after us does not know anything. And in fact, the people in our own generation who disagree with us, they are wrong too." I think that that is a very arrogant and misguided approach to making public policy. On the other hand, I think that it is certainly true that for whatever reason, they may have been bad reasons, but for whatever reason, there was more political ferment during the (19)60s. And so, it may have been true that there were more causes to get involved with back then. Now, I am not sure that it was a good idea because I do not think a lot of these causes were a good idea. And, this is something where I disagree with conservatives. Some conservatives say that, well, it is sort of, national greatness conservatives that, "Well, people need a cause. And, they need to believe in something bigger than themselves. And so, the government of the country should provide that." Well, I do not buy that. I mean, I think it is true that people do need to believe in something larger than themselves, but I do not think it's the role of the government to do that. As a Christian, my own view is that the main thing that you ought to believe in that is bigger than yourself is God and serving Him. But even if I were not a Christian, I do not think I would say that, "Well, it is up to the government to give people something to rally around" I mean, okay, if you want something that you want to fight for, well go ahead and do that. But, try to do it in a way where you are not bossing other people around. I mean, if you think that there is a lot of poor people who are suffering and who need to be helped through food or educational opportunities, or whatever, that is fine, go do it. And get together with your friends if you want, and raise money, and buy food for them, or volunteer and go into depressed areas, and help kids after school. That is all great. But, you do not need to say that, "Well, we have figured out that this is the most important thing that needs to be done and we are going to force other people who do not agree with us to give us their money so that we can go do this." SM (00:42:04): You raise a good point, because the people I admire the most are people that oftentimes do things and they do not want publicity. I can remember, and I am not going to put this in the interview, but Charles Barkley, regardless of whether you like or dislike the man and what he has done on TV, and his gambling and all the other stuff, he has given thousands of dollars for scholarships to kids that do not have it. And he said, "I am doing it, but you do not let the word out." He gets very upset. "I am doing it because I want to do it. I do not want to have an article in the newspaper." Now obviously, someone found out about this and they have written things on Charles because he wants to be the Governor of Alabama one day. But, that is an interesting point there. I like the fact that when people do things, it is not because they want the world to know they have done it. It's, they do it because they want to help people. RC (00:42:57): Right. Right. SM (00:43:00): Again, what do you think are the... What was the watershed moment... Want to make sure we do not go over. Yeah. I am almost done with the first half of the tape. What do you think was the watershed moment when the (19)60s began, and the watershed moment when it ended? RC (00:43:20): Well... SM (00:43:24): Let us see here. Do I have to change this tape? Let us see. We have got about a minute I think left, then I will stop. RC (00:43:37): Okay. Briefly, I think you could mark the beginning of the (19)60s in a couple ways. You could say that, well, it is maybe with the civil rights protests that began in Montgomery, which we put it in, actually, the (19)60s, starting in the mid-(19)50s. Or, you could start it with the escalation of the war in Vietnam, which would put it in the (19)63 or (19)64, or something like that. I think the end of that, most people would say it is probably the end of the Vietnam War, or the end of American involvement. I think the Peace Accords in Paris were signed in, I think January (19)73, something like that. So, I think those are sort of how I would bracket it. I mean, clearly, the zeitgeist in the (19)60s lasted a little bit beyond 1969 because you had Kent State and the invasion of Cambodia, and all that stuff. I think that was actually in the (19)70s. SM (00:44:39): Yeah, it is interesting because there is a lot of activity through (19)73, and then all of a sudden, in the fall of (19)73 it just... So, (19)73 is a big year because that is also, we got out of Vietnam, and the activism started to really drop, and a lot of things were happening. In fact, I have written in my little segment, the introduction, that I felt it ended when streaking happened, and that was 1973 in the fall. And someone said to me when I was working OU, "Come to Ohio State." I said, "Why? Is there a protest? 'Oh, no. It is something new called streaking.'" I am going to switch the tape first. If I were to have 500 people, you may respond the same way about generalizing about boomers, too. But, if I were to have 500 people in an auditorium that were, let us say, the first half of the boomer generation, those born between (19)46 and say, (19)56, the one event that had the greatest impact, single event that had the greatest impact on their life, what do you think they would say? And when I say young, I mean really, when they were in elementary or secondary, or college, basically. RC (00:46:25): Well, of course everybody always says that you remember where you were when Kennedy was assassinated, something like that. And then, that may be true, but I am not sure if that really influenced people's lives that much. I think that the things that probably you had a direct impact on people's lives was becoming 18 years old and eligible for the draft. I think that that is probably really affected people, because I think that probably affected a lot of people's political outlook. I do not want to be unduly cynical here, but if you were not wild about the idea of going to Southeast Asia and maybe getting shot at, then it is very easy to want to come up for reasons why your reluctance to do that is justified. And so, you are going to be sympathetic to the anti-war movement. And, as you have sort of indicated, a lot of these movements, they were all interwoven. And so, if you buy into the anti-war movement then you also buy into a lot of these other movements. And, just generally buy into the whole left-wing agenda. And, I think that that probably happened to a lot of people. SM (00:48:23): It is interesting though, I know when I interviewed Ed Foner and Dr. Lee Edwards, Dr. Lee Edwards was adamant, the fact that the Young Americans for Freedom were a conservative organization who was as anti-war as the SDS. And they were conservative, diehard conservatives, and no one has written on it. There has been one book written about this particular group. I have had a lot of reactions. Some people do not remember them, but they have been left out of the history books. But, they were big-time anti-war. And they were to the right, and they were conservatives. I remember Bill Buckley even mentioned it in one of his books about the Young Americans for Freedom. So, there were conservatives who were against the war. RC (00:49:11): Oh, absolutely. SM (00:49:11): Yeah. Yeah. RC (00:49:12): That is true. That is true. And there has always been a strain within the conservative movement of people who, they're anti-Communist, but they are also isolationist, or they are very skeptical about foreign involvement by the United States. We see that even today with Ron Paul, for instance, that kind of, well, with Libertarians and also, people like Russell Kirk, I think, and others like that. And, I am sure it's true. Lee Edwards and Ed Foner were much more familiar with these groups than I was, because it was really a little bit before my time. SM (00:50:02): And Ron Robinson, who I interviewed, was one of the student leaders in that organization, now heads the Young America's Foundation with Pat Coyle. And, he did not even know the extent of what Lee was talking about. Lee's the historian, and he knows. And I said to Lee, "Why do not you write a book?" He has writing too many other books. RC (00:50:25): Yeah, he writes lots of books. SM (00:50:26): But anyways, I want to throw that in. I want to read this one. There were two basic issues I want to concentrate on in this book besides the general questions I have been asking. And then, I am spontaneously going in a different direction. The issue of healing and the issue of trust, which I personally have defined as part of this generation of issues that are affecting them. And, I want to read this. I want to start out by saying that when I was at Westchester University, I took a group of students to meet Senator Edmund Muskie about a year and a half before he passed away. I knew Gaylord Nelson, and Gaylord was able to secure nine meetings with nine senators, because we had brought him to the university. He was such a nice guy, and what a senator he was. He was a statesman. And so, we worked it out so that we met these senators. When we took the students to see Edmund Muskie, it was one of the best student groups we ever had. In fact, three of them have gone on for their PhDs by now. And, I had really picked them because we were going to ask some questions about the (19)68 convention, the tremendous divisions in the country, and all the things. We asked the question, and everybody was excited because this is the one question we wanted to ask them. And the question was this, and this is the way we read it, "Do you feel the boomer generation is still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, divisions between gay and straight, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not?" And then, I throw in something here about what role has the wall played in partially healing the veterans and the generation. "Do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds, the truth?" When I ask him this question... And, I know two of the closest students. One just became, I am throwing this in here. I am not going to have an interview, he just became the Director of Admissions at Southern Illinois University. I am so proud of him. He is 38 years old, and he is now been the director of admissions at three schools. PhD. But, when we asked him this, we were expecting the 1968 convention, and he did not even mention it. He had a melodramatic pause. He had, looked like a few tears in his eyes, and he said, "I just got out of the hospital. I have been pretty sick, as you might know. And, I just saw the Ken Burns series on the Civil War." And he recommended that if we did not see it on PBS, that we get the tape. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And then, he went on to talk about the reasons why the 400,000 men who died on both sides, the lost generation of children that we never had, almost a lost generation compared to the numbers we have today. But, that was his response. I thought about it because I know veterans come back to The Wall, and I know that non-veterans come back to The Wall. And, some probably feel guilty that they did not serve when their kids asked them, "What did you do in the war, daddy?" Just your thoughts on whether you feel we have an issue with healing within this generation of 17-some million. I know you cannot break it down, but do you think it is something to be concerned about? RC (00:54:09): Well, I think that people who were on opposite sides during a big conflict probably do have a challenge to overcome that later on in life. And I suppose, that the more dramatic and important the conflict, the greater the challenge is. I mean, being on opposite sides of the barricades in the Civil War, knowing that somebody was shooting at you or shooting at your friends, yeah, that is probably something that is difficult to overcome. The (19)60s were not as dramatic but it is, I guess, more dramatic than whatever divisions there were, say in the (19)80s. There were people that like Reagan and people that did not like Reagan, but we were not shooting at one another the way we were in the Civil War. And we were not even throwing bottles at one another the way we were during the (19)60s. On the other hand, I think there are people who do not like people who disagree with them in any generation. And, they do not like people who disagreed with them... They do not like people who disagree with them now, even if they were in agreement 20 years ago. So, I think it can be over overstated. I mean, I am thinking in my own life, how would I feel about somebody of my generation that I disagreed with back in the day, back in the (19)60s? Well, I do not think I would view that as unforgivable. I do think that I would think that they were wrong, and there might be still a little distress there. SM (00:57:55): The Wall itself has done a pretty good... Jan Scruggs of the book, To Heal a Nation, obviously it has been a fair... You cannot heal a lot of veterans because the wounds will always be there for a lot of the vets. It has done a lot to help veterans and their families remember those who died and those who served. And so, I have been there for the last... I know how important it is to that side. RC (00:58:18): Yeah-yeah. SM (00:58:19): I have seen it. I have always wondered though, I guess, I even asked myself, I did not serve, and I was a college student from (19)66 to (19)70, then I went on to grad school. And, I could not go because I had asthma. Then, I had been in an automobile, not automobile, I was in a very bad accident at my house. And so, I can always say, "Well, these were my reasons." But, I know a lot of vets will look at you with an eye. When they hear asthma they, "Eh." Bronchial asthma, yes. Asthma from weeds because some people went in and were veterans who had problems with weeds like grass. So, I do not know. I just ask this. I have been asking to everybody. It's, "Ah, it's no big deal." And others say, "Yeah, you might have something there." Everybody has to heal on their own. So it's individual, so to speak. But The Wall has done a tremendous job. What do you think when you look at the Vietnam Memorial in Washington? And obviously, you have been there. What did it do for you, and do you think it has gone as far as Jan Scruggs says in his book, To Heal a Nation? RC (00:59:37): Well, I think that memorials do have powerful symbolic value. I mean, that is why we have them, right? And, maybe there is something uniquely powerful and healing about that particular memorial because of the fact that it was a controversial war, and because of the structure of it itself, and that you have all these individual names written on it. That, that helps the recognition. And maybe, veterans of that war are particularly grateful to have that recognition given the fact that it was controversial. Yeah. I mean, I think that that is... I do want to say one thing though. That I think that some of the emotion though that you are talking about, people might feel even without the context of a war. I mean, for instance, I turned 18 in April, 1973, and the Peace Agreement had been signed in January, 1973. And of course, the draft had ended even a year or two before that. So, I was never somebody where going to Vietnam was a real possibility. And then, the next war that the United States was in, I guess was not until Grenada, right? And by that time, I was through law school and in my mid to late twenties. And of course, there was not a draft. There has not been a draft since then. And yeah, I mean, I will tell you, the one regret that I have in my life is that I never wore a uniform. And I look back, and I do not know when I would have... I mean, there was not really a logical time for me to stop what I was doing. I mean, I could have gone into the army or into the service after college, or after law school, or something like that, but there was- SM (01:03:19): I think you can go in right up to 40. RC (01:03:23): Yeah. But I never did, and I regret that. I regret that. So anyway, I mean, I feel that even though I was not somebody who was not serving when other people were being drafted, or when there was a big war going on and I was sort of on the sidelines, and I did not have that, and yet I still have this regret. SM (01:03:48): Yeah. I do not know why I always ask this question. I have asked it to everybody and I have had some interesting responses. Gaylord Nelson was, in his own unique way, always responding in Gaylord Nelson way. And that is, he said, "I do not walk around Washington DC with lack of healing on their sleeve." He said, "But it did affect the body politic. And that is where the effect has been. It is the body politic. You keep bringing it up in just about every war." And we have even, as we are getting later on, when Ronald Reagan said, "America's back," it was back from the (19)60s. And then, George Bush, senior, saying, "Vietnam syndrome is over." Oh, boy. Because, some people really reacted to that, even more than Ronald Reagan. But, I have a question here. The second area is trust. Boomers, in their lives, saw a lot of leaders that lied to them. I am sure the leaders have lied throughout history, but when boomers were young and in college, they saw a president lie to them about getting involved in Vietnam with the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. And, anybody who was up on what was happening knew that was a lie. There were things already written about it. If you were cognizant, and when you were in fifth or sixth grade like I was when President Eisenhower on TV said that, "The u2, Gary Powers was not a spy." I remember him on TV saying that, and then he lied. Why? And, I like him. And then of course, Watergate with Richard Nixon, and the list goes on and on. College students and the people of the (19)60s seen... The Vietnam generation did not trust anybody in position of power or authority, whether it be university or president, college administrators, ministers, rabbis, priests, politicians, heads of corporations, anybody in the leadership role, you cannot trust. And so, I am wondering if this is an issue that we define this generation as a very non-trusting generation. That it might have- SM (01:06:03): It is a very non-trusting generation that might have passed this on to their kids and their grandkids. I preface this again with a question that political science majors, of which I was a history major in political science, is that it is healthy. Political scientists always say it is healthy to challenge government and to not trust government, because that is what a democracy is. Keeps them on their toes. So you have got that extreme, but just your thought on the effect that these leaders have had and their lack of trust in so many leaders when they were young and the effect this may still have on America today. When I say this, I am not only talking about the activists. I am talking about the hundred percent, because subconsciously they all experienced the (19)60s. RC (01:06:50): That is a very interesting question. I do not know the answer to that. It would be interesting to try to figure out if people a hundred years ago were more or less trusting of these various leaders than they are now. I mean, again, there is a danger that each generation thinks that it's experiencing everything for the first time. That, oh, well, nobody else, no other generation has been disillusioned the way we are or is skeptical the way we are or whatever. Of course, it is not true. Each generation thinks that they are the first, but it is really not. Now we think that, oh gosh, the United States is polarized in a way that is never been polarized. There is a lack of civility, et cetera. Well, yes and no. You go back and you look at political campaigns that were run a hundred or 200 years ago, and they were pretty uncivil. I suspect that Southerners, prior to the Civil War were pretty skeptical about President Lincoln and did not trust him, thought he was a liar. I remember my grandfather, he certainly was not somebody... I mentioned him earlier, he was very skeptical about the veracity of different leaders. So, I think that skepticism about politicians maybe is something that is not brand new. Maybe the numbers are much bigger now. Maybe 50 years ago, 10 or 20 percent of the people thought that FDR was a liar, but now 80 percent of the people think that whoever is the president is a liar. So, maybe it has gotten worse. I just do not know. These other leaders that you talk about, the clergy, businessmen, so forth, well, again, I am sure that there were lots of... the whole populous movement was based on skepticism about the good faith of American corporations and businessmen. So, I do not think that they thought that John D. Rockefeller could not tell a lie. I do not know. SM (01:10:23): I know. As follow up, because I can remember Teddy Roosevelt when he was president and served two terms, he was very supportive of William Howard Taft taking over, but he came back in 1912 because he said Taft was a liar. RC (01:10:39): Yeah. SM (01:10:40): Lied. "He said he was going to follow through on my policies and did absolutely nothing." Friends to bitter enemies. RC (01:10:47): Right. Yeah. SM (01:10:49): So there is a lack of trust there. I think of examples, I always think of how the population responds, whether they respond... The activism in the thirties was something also like the (19)60s. I want you to respond to, what do these things mean to you? They do not have to be very lengthy or anything, but you have already mentioned what the wall means to you. RC (01:11:13): Yeah. SM (01:11:13): So what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? RC (01:11:19): Well, I remember more about Kent State than about Jackson State. I have to say that my recollection of Kent State was that it may well be that... It was a tragedy, clearly. But I remember when I was in the Civil Rights Division, learning that I think the Justice Department Civil Rights Division prosecuted the guardsmen there. I was very skeptical about that. I am not an expert on the facts, but this was a protest. Things were being thrown at these guardsmen. My instinct is to be sympathetic. Now, if the bottles had been thrown five minutes ago and the protestors were a different group of protestors and they were 300 yards away, well that is different. I just know about the facts, but that is my recollection, is that well, it was a tragedy. It was real wrong that these guardsmen did what they did, but the protestors should not have been throwing bottles at the guardsman either or whatever they were. SM (01:13:01): Watergate. RC (01:13:06): Well, I think that Nixon lied. He covered up. He abused government authority, abused trust, all of that. Was it an impeachable offense? I do not know. Again, I would have to go back and look at it. I mean, I remember the response of a lot of people was that, well, look, yeah, all what Nixon did was wrong, but it is not particularly new. These were things that other political leaders had done, and that to a substantial extent, this was an excuse that was seized upon by Nixon's political enemies. Example was a popular button at the time was, I was for impeachment before Watergate. Well, I mean, it was meant to show how right the person was. But I remember, I think it was Bill Buckley saying, well, exactly. That is the mindset, and that makes us skeptical about whether impeachment really makes sense here. I mean, I do not want to be a Nixon apologist. I did not like Nixon. In 1972, I was not old enough to vote yet, but we had a mock election at my high school. I supported the third party candidate then. John Schmitz was his name. Nixon was not a particularly conservative president, and there were a lot of things that he did. So, I am not a great fan of Nixon, but I think that I like Nixon's enemies even less. I am open to the suggestion that Watergate was seized upon by Nixon's political enemies to get rid of him. All that said, though, the way he handled Watergate was wrong not only politically, but also morally. SM (01:16:04): Goes right into enemies list. That was my next- RC (01:16:07): Yeah. SM (01:16:08): Just your thought on his enemies list. It is a long one. RC (01:16:12): Yeah, it was a long one. I think that it was described as being put together and that the machinery of the federal government was going to be used to screw, and those were his words, our political enemies. Well, that is wrong. I cannot do that. SM (01:16:31): How about Woodstock? RC (01:16:32): It was a bunch of stupid hippies. That would be my two-word response. I think there was some good music there. But was it a great moment for a Western civilization? No, I think it was probably not. SM (01:17:03): Going to have to put the Summer of Love in there too, which was (19)67. RC (01:17:07): Yeah. I mean, again, I think that I do not like the counterculture. I like the culture. SM (01:17:17): That is the next word. It is counterculture, because Theo Roszak wrote that very historic book called The Making of a Counterculture. He just retired. I am going to interview him. He just retired from the University of California at Hayward. He has written a brand-new book now on the Boomers in old age, some of his projections. I am not reading it until I interview him, but just the term counterculture. RC (01:17:45): You know what I said. I do not like the counterculture. I like the culture. The culture that was being countered was, I take it Western civilization and American culture in particular. I think that American culture is good and does not need to be countered. It can certainly be improved. To the extent that the counterculture was about getting rid of racial discrimination or stopping the dumping of poisonous chemicals into the water, our rivers, yeah, that is fine. But if it is about using drugs, having promiscuity, rejecting religion, no, I think that the culture is much better than the counterculture. SM (01:19:17): Two different groups, but the Hippies and the Yippies. The Yippies were Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin and the Youth International Party. RC (01:19:25): Right. SM (01:19:26): Different. RC (01:19:27): Yeah. Well, I did not like the Hippies, and I like the Yippies even less. I mean, I guess the Yippies are a more radicalized and politicized version of the Hippies. I reject their Yippies political agenda and the lawless means they would use to pursue it. The Hippies, I would define I guess as people who embrace the counterculture, particularly younger people who got into long hair and bell bottoms and drug use and promiscuity and all that. SM (01:20:11): We have already set a few things. Students for Democratic Society and the Weathermen, they were different. RC (01:20:18): Well, sure. SM (01:20:20): I know for a fact that many members of SDS, when the Weatherman started, they split. It is over. Wanted nothing to do with that. So, those are two unique groups, even though they are part of SDS. Just your thoughts on SDS from its beginning, Tom Hayden created with the Port Huron Statement. Just your thoughts on those two entities. RC (01:20:47): Well, it was very left wing from the start. As a conservative, therefore I was unsympathetic with them from the start. So long as the agenda was merely dissenting and not lawless and revolutionary and violent, I would be unsympathetic but tolerant. But once an organization starts breaking the law, killing people, blowing up buildings and so forth, then they should be treated as criminals. SM (01:21:35): How about Vietnam Veterans Against the War? Because they took over the anti-war movement when SDS died. RC (01:21:41): Yeah. SM (01:21:42): They were major. RC (01:21:44): Well again, I mean, would draw the same distinction. I was anti-antiwar, but so long as the... the parts of the antiwar movement that were simply dissenting, you have to tolerate dissent in a democratic society until it becomes violent or lawless. I do not know enough about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. I guess my-my recollection, I do not associate them with the violence and lawlessness of, well certainly of the Weatherman. SM (01:22:42): What do you think were the most important books that were read? What did you read when you were young? What do you think were the most important books for the Boomer generation? What were people reading then? RC (01:22:57): Well, and I mentioned from my side of the aisle, I was a fan of Buckley's. Of course, Buckley was publishing books that I remember reading, books that were... I mean, a lot of them were compilations of his columns and other essays, but he also had some standalone books too. I think The Unmaking of a Mayor, which was his [inaudible] running for Mayor of New York City against Lindsay, Up from Liberalism, I think. SM (01:23:39): God and Man at Yale was classic. RC (01:23:40): Why, sure. Yeah. I think that was written in the early (19)50s, McCarthy is an amazing and so forth. So yeah, I think that Russell Kirk, The Conservative Mind, there were lots of... the whole staff of National Review, James Burnham, Whittaker Chambers. Goodness knows that was a little bit earlier, but I think that those were all important books for conservatives. For the left, I remember The Greening of America by Charles Reich, reading that. Garry Wills was sort of an interesting guy who started out as, I guess as a conservative and became liberal. I remember reading Nixon Agonistes and I am not sure- SM (01:24:58): Classic book. RC (01:24:58): Yeah. I do not know how I would classify that. I think that Wills may have written that when he was in transition. But I remember it was an important and much read and discussed book then. Well, and then from the Martin Luther King, Why We Cannot Wait, his speeches, those were obviously very important books. SM (01:25:32): Your thoughts on the music and the art of the era? Obviously, we are talking about rock music, Motown, folk. What was the music that really turned on you and some of the conservative Boomers of that period? I thought some of this music appealed to everyone. RC (01:25:51): Yeah, no, I think that is true. I think that is true. SM (01:25:52): They had so many social messages in their music too. RC (01:25:55): That is true. Although I do not know that there really were very many, that there was much conservative movement, conservative music, conservative, popular music back then. SM (01:26:13): Burl Ives. RC (01:26:16): I guess The Ballad of the Green Beret. SM (01:26:19): He was a liberal, man. RC (01:26:22): But I enjoyed that music. I tell you, I am Bob Dylan fan. I like him. Of course, a lot of Dylan's work it is hard to... it is not maybe as easily pigeonholed, particularly in retrospect, as people think. Dylan himself is an interesting character. I do not know if you have read- SM (01:26:56): Yeah, I have read quite a bit on him and actually about the song, Like a Rolling Stone. People have read the words. You take away different meanings. RC (01:27:06): Yeah. Yeah. SM (01:27:07): In fact, one person I interviewed said, "Listen to the words. He is very critical of the Boomer generation. Listen to the words on a Rolling Stone." Now that might not be what he was later, when he was with Joan Baez, but just listen to the words. RC (01:27:24): Yeah. Well, and his chronicles and his memoir, I mean I was sort of surprised, but he talks about that era. He thought that Goldwater was a great guy. He singles him out among politicians like, "Yeah, I read. Oh, you really made a lot of sense to me." I liked a lot of the (19)60s' movement. I would say that probably the more stridently political it was, the more problem I would have. But a lot of it, you can convince yourself to like it. I remember Emerson, Lake and Palmer, the song Lucky Man. SM (01:28:16): With the eagle or the swan or whatever it was, or a dove. It was a dove on the cover. RC (01:28:24): Yeah. SM (01:28:24): Yeah. RC (01:28:27): I guess their biggest hit was probably Lucky Man. Right? SM (01:28:29): Mm- hmm. RC (01:28:32): I am sure it is supposed to be very sarcastic in characterizing this guy who was killed as being somehow lucky. But you read it, I said, "Well, it would not be such a bad way to go," to live and die. But no, the Beatles obviously have great music. The Rolling Stones had great music. Rolling Stones is another group that is interesting, that they certainly were countercultural and not role models, but their music was not really very political. SM (01:29:17): Well, I got two more questions and then I am just going to read some names, just quick responses and then we will be done. The one question is, there were three... someone corrected me and said there are four, but I am going to continue to say there are three slogans that really defined the era. I would like the one that you feel defines the era more than the other or a combination. One of them was Malcolm X's By Any Means Necessary. Of course, that was on a lot of residence halls and colleges. The second one was Bobby Kennedy, who... actually, I think it was a Henry David Thoreau quote. He said, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." Then the third one was a Peter Max poster that was very popular on college campuses in the early (19)70s. On that poster it said, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." So those are three different slogans of an era, one being more radical, one more hippie-ish, and one sense of responsibility, the idea of making a difference in the world for other people. Your thoughts on those three? And again, I am going to make sure... this tape may be going to an end here. Yeah, I am going to... Okay, here you go. RC (01:31:08): Yeah. I was trying to think if I can recall other catchphrases from the (19)60s, burn baby burn, do not trust anybody over 30. SM (01:31:31): It was Cleaver [inaudible] kept saying that. I cannot remember what it was. RC (01:31:37): Yeah. Well, I guess of those, the one that... I guess the two that I would pick out as emblematic are the Bobby Kennedy and the Malcolm X one. Chronologically, the Kennedy one may have come after the Malcolm X one. I am not sure. But I think that the Kennedy one can unfortunately degenerate into the Malcolm X one. The reformist impulse that the Kennedy quote shows is everybody's in favor of reform. Nobody thinks that the status quo is perfect. I mean, Edmund Burke believed in reform. I think Burke said that when we change the existing institutions, we should approach the body politic as a son approaches the wounds of his father. You should be very gentle, very careful in the way that you treat those wounds and in the way that you try to make things better. The most important thing is to do no harm. When you start saying that, well, we're going to do things by any means necessary, that we have figured out what needs to be done and we do not care about process, we do not care about consensus, we do not care about following the rules in order to bring about what we think needs to be brought about, then you lose me. I think that you should lose anybody who is responsible. I think that unfortunately in the (19)60s, a lot of this understandable reformist impulse degenerated into the lawlessness and violence of by any means necessary. SM (01:34:51): What were the photographs or the pictures that stand out in your mind that really caught your attention during this time, that had the greatest impact on you? I have three that I will mention after you respond. And then there is a fourth that someone told me, "How could you forget that one?" RC (01:35:13): Well, I think that when I think of the (19)60s, I think of Vietnam. I guess the two photos of Vietnam that come to mind are the South Vietnamese official summarily executing the Vietnam guy and then the famous naked little girl running from the Napalm. SM (01:35:45): Kim Phuc. Yeah. RC (01:35:45): Yeah. SM (01:35:46): Mm-hmm. RC (01:35:47): I think those are the ones that come to mind about Vietnam. I think of, I guess maybe pictures of the Kennedy assassination, the still photos. I think of... I mean this does not really have anything to do with what we have been talking about, but the men walking on the moon. In terms of the Civil Rights Movement, I do not know. I can picture different photographs of Martin Luther King and other civil rights figures, but I cannot really think of a particular one. SM (01:36:53): There are, I think four pictures that are in the top 100 of the 20th century. One of them is the girl over the body at Kent State. RC (01:37:04): I could think of that one. Yeah. I was going to say that one. SM (01:37:06): That is one I was thinking of. That was Mary Ann Vecchio. Then the other one is Tommie Smith and John Carlos in the (19)68 Olympics in Mexico City with their fists up. RC (01:37:15): Right. SM (01:37:16): You hit the third one of mine. What was it now? Oh yeah, Kim Phuc, who we actually brought to Westchester University. But one that I was told that you cannot forget is the Mỹ Lai Massacre, dead bodies and I do not know. RC (01:37:32): Well, I was thinking about that, but I do not remember... I remember pictures of Calley, but I do not remember that photo. SM (01:37:37): Yeah, there are others. Yeah. RC (01:37:39): Yeah. SM (01:37:40): Of course, Spiro. The last question before, I just get the names here now, and I just want to get back to the (19)50s. Now, you obviously are younger than I am. Of course, Boomers, the frontline Boomers start going into seventh grade around 1960, (19)59, (19)60. So the thing that always puzzles me, and I would like your feelings on it, what was it about the 1950s that shaped this generation? I know we had Eisenhower as a president. He was a gentlemanly old man, but he was war a hero. The kids of this era grew up watching Mickey Mouse Club. All the westerns on TV, my golly, all these westerns were always, the Indians were the bad people and the cowboys. You had Howdy Doody for the real young ones, Rootie Kazootie. You had The Ed Sullivan Show. You had the black and white TV, three channels. The list goes on and on, on the types of TV shows that were on in the (19)50s. But parents are trying to give as much as they could to their kids. Of course, we're not talking about all the African American kids or others, but even in that period, there seemed to be a more stable family unit, even within the African American community in the- Well, the family unit, even within the African American community in the 1950s. RC (01:39:04): It is true. SM (01:39:05): Much more stable unit with a mother and father. They may not have had a TV set, but there were a lot of things happening, and then you get into the (19)60s or the beginning of the (19)60s when President Kennedy became president, and I know the war and the draft and all these other things, but there had to be something as children are growing up, given all this stuff, and they were rebelling against their parents, the generation gap, and all the other things. How did this happen? And two things that I remember. I can remember as a little boy overhearing the McCarthy hearings on TV and this man screaming saying, "You are a communist," and all this. I can remember that, and obviously the threat of nuclear war and all the other things, but my friends did not never seem affected by that. And then, of course, the beat generation where anybody that knew about the beats, they were the first to rebel against the status quo. There is a lot of stuff happening here. Just your thoughts on what was it about the (19)50s that shaped the boomer generation? Forget the (19)60s and the anti, all this stuff. What was it about it? RC (01:40:22): Well, I think the conventional wisdom would be that, well, the (19)50s were very stayed conservative era and repressive. Repressive of women, repressive of racial minorities, and that the (19)60s generation got fed up with that and wanted to end repression and to have more freedom, more equality, so that is what the rebellion against the (19)50s was about. I am not a social scientist, I am not a historian, but I am skeptical of that view. I think that there certainly was discrimination in the (19)50s, but of course the discrimination against minorities and women was not new in the 1950s. It was in the (19)40s and the (19)30s and the (19)20s and so forth, too. So it is kind of unfair to single out the (19)50s. In fact, the (19)50s in some respects, starting to move in the right direction on these issues. I think that a more cynical explanation of what happened in the 60s would be this. It was not a rebellion against the 1950s at all. That what you had was a generation that was spoiled. As we discussed before, the greatest generation had gone through the Depression and they did not want their kids to suffer, and so they indulged them. So you had that, you had a couple of technological changes with the pill, which made it much easier and less risky to have premarital sex. You had a continuing decline in traditional morality and religion. Again, this was not something that began in the (19)50s, but I think it maybe was continuing in the (19)50s. And then, the catalyst was that you had the Vietnam War and people for largely self-interested reasons, rebelled not against the (19)50s, but against this war. And as a result of that, and as a result of the fact that the ideology of the anti-war movement was interwoven with a lot of other left-wing ideology, bought in to the rest of the left's agenda, which did include rejection of all that was bad and good about the 1950s and American culture generally. I think Midge Decter wrote a book, which I have not read, called Liberal Parents, Radical Children, which I think may talk about some of this. SM (01:46:04): Good. How many years ago was that? I probably have that book. RC (01:46:09): Yeah, she must have written that I think in the (19)70s. SM (01:46:18): We're at the end here in terms of just responding to some of the names, just quick response. They do not have be any kind of great detail. There might be a few smaller terms here too, but I am going to start out with just your thoughts. Jane Fonda? RC (01:46:35): What do you want from me, a thumbs up or a thumbs down? SM (01:46:38): Just your thoughts, just a few words, what you think of her. RC (01:46:42): Well, yeah, I did not like her. She was, if not a traitor, she certainly... And if not, she did not engage in treason, she certainly gave aid and comfort to the enemy. SM (01:46:56): How about Tom Hayden? RC (01:46:59): It was... At a minimum, I am very unsympathetic to his political agenda, and my recollection is that the agenda was not only objectionable, but advocated lawbreaking and... Well, I will not say violence in this case, but certainly breaking the law. SM (01:47:46): And a follow-up is his close friend, Rennie Davis. RC (01:47:49): I do not remember Rennie Davis. SM (01:47:52): How about Abby Hoffman and Jerry Ruben? RC (01:47:55): Well, again, they were certainly on the Wallace part of the protests. Whether they were... I think that they certainly tolerated violence if they did not engage in violence themselves. SM (01:48:14): Chicago Eight, or seven, when they took Bobby Seal away. RC (01:48:18): Well, again, I would put them in the same category. I do not remember how... I mean, I am sort of drawing these distinctions between dissent, lawless dissent, and then violent dissent. SM (01:48:30): Right. RC (01:48:30): And the Chicago Eight, that was a trial about Wallace. I do not know what it was about. Well, I guess, actually did not they blow up a monument or something? I cannot remember if that was part of the- SM (01:48:45): Well, I know they took over a monument, but that was a whole group of people, but they did not blow it up though. RC (01:48:49): Yeah. Oh, okay. Maybe- SM (01:48:51): I have not asked this before, but since you're a lawyer, what do you think of William Kunstler? RC (01:48:56): Well, again, I do not like him. I think that he abused the legal system, acted very irresponsibly. SM (01:49:09): The premier of his documentary is Saturday. There is a documentary coming. He and Leonard Wineglass worked together in Chicago. RC (01:49:16): Yeah. SM (01:49:18): Timothy Leary. RC (01:49:23): Irresponsible. Advocate of drug use. SM (01:49:27): Dr. Benjamin Spock. RC (01:49:33): He wrote a decent book on child-rearing, but was wrong about the Vietnam War. SM (01:49:41): How about William Sloane Coffin? RC (01:49:44): Also wrong about the war. SM (01:49:50): How about the Black Panthers? And I am going to list them because there is five of them that are well known: Bobby Seale, Huey Newton, Angela Davis, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver. There is five of them. They were well known. The other one was murdered, Norman, in Chicago. RC (01:50:07): Well, the Panthers were not only dissenters, but they were lawless and violent dissenters, and they killed people. David Horowitz, I think, was well written about this. I cannot remember... I mean, well, I do not remember anything about Kathleen Cleaver. Angela Davis, I remember, and I remember that she was convicted of helping a... Oh, I guess then the conviction was overturned on basically a technicality, and now she is ironically a law professor. She is a devout Communist, so I do not like her. SM (01:51:09): Kathleen, by the way, is a law professor at Emory. RC (01:51:12): Is that right? SM (01:51:12): A very good law professor. RC (01:51:14): That is funny. Eldridge Cleaver, Huey Newton and- SM (01:51:23): Bobby Seale. RC (01:51:23): ... Bobby Seale, I would have to read up on which did what. I think that Cleaver was actually convicted of rape at one point, in addition to what he did with the Black Panthers. I think that, I cannot remember if it was Huey Newton or Bobby Seale that was killed eventually in a drug related- SM (01:51:58): Huey. He ended up getting a PhD too. RC (01:52:07): Yeah. SM (01:52:07): He was a smart guy. RC (01:52:08): Yeah. Well, I think that he's the one that David Horowitz talks about in his memoirs the most. Yeah, being smart, but very dangerous. SM (01:52:16): How about the Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, the feminists? RC (01:52:29): I actually think of Chisholm more as, not principally as a feminist, but- SM (01:52:36): Black, female politician, ran for President. RC (01:52:39): Right. As I said, I think that the feminists, I sympathy with providing more opportunities for women, but not sympathetic with the denigration of traditional female roles, which should also be things that could be chosen. And I think some of them, I think had a sort of generally liberal agenda, and so I would disagree with her about that. SM (01:53:40): Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. RC (01:53:46): Well, I think that both of them did a lot of... Really let down Republicans and conservatives through their law-breaking. In both instances, I think that there are those who would say that, well, the penalty that they paid was disproportionate to the laws they broke, but nonetheless, they did break the law and I think they let us down. SM (01:54:47): I did not mention two other Black Panthers, H. Rap Brown and Stokely Carmichael. They were big. RC (01:54:53): Yeah, yeah. And I put them in the same category. Advocates of violence. I think that Rap Brown is back in prison. SM (01:55:00): He is in jail. I think he is there for the rest of his life. RC (01:55:08): Yeah. SM (01:55:11): John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy? RC (01:55:16): Well, I think that John Kennedy is greatly overrated as a president, but is a much more conservative president than is remembered. He was strongly anti-communist. I think his views, he would have a very hard time getting nominated to anything in the Democratic Party these days. Bobby Kennedy, I think was also somebody who had, I think he was becoming more liberal as he got older before he was killed, but I think his... Both of them I think are more fondly remember today than they would have been had they not been tragically assassinated. SM (01:56:43): How about Teddy Stein? RC (01:56:47): Well- SM (01:56:48): Some people say he was probably the greatest senator during this timeframe in the (19)70s, when he became 62 to now. RC (01:56:58): Well, he certainly was an effective senator. I did not share his agenda, and I think that his significant faults were all whitewashed during the mourning over his death. And I think that some of that is understandable. When somebody dies, that is not the time to point out their faults, but he could be a very nasty politician as witness what he did to Robert Bork and had a personal life that was at least for long stretches, immoral, and even criminal. SM (01:58:41): How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern? RC (01:58:47): Well, I think that both of them are, unlike Kennedy, I think are personally very well-behaved, moral men. McGovern was a war hero, and I am not aware of anyone that is criticized their character. They are both political liberals, so I disagree with that, but I do not think that they had the personal failings that the Kennedy has had. SM (01:59:40): How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? RC (01:59:45): Well, very different. I mean, I guess, they had similar politics. Again, both of them, I did not share their politics. I think that Humphrey was someone, again, whose personal life and personal morality, I have not heard criticized. Johnson was a much rougher character. SM (02:00:20): Couple more here. George Wallace? RC (02:00:28): Well, he began as a racist demagogue and eventually became just a demagogue. I mean, think that he shed some of his racism. He is somebody who is political bottom line, I shared in many respects in terms of being more accepted in the civil rights area, but in terms of the war, the rejection of the counterculture, I was sympathetic, but he was, I think somebody who thinking conservatives were never entirely comfortable with. SM (02:01:33): Daniel and Phillip Berrigan, Catholic priests. RC (02:01:37): Yeah. I sort of have them same category as Sloane Kaufman. There were a lot of mainline clergy who were opposed to the war, and I do not remember... I did not share their rejection of the war. I do not think that... I think you can be a good Christian and also support the Vietnam War. I cannot remember whether to what extent they were not only dissenters, but also broke the law- SM (02:02:35): They did. They threw blood on nuclear weapons, and then they also destroyed direct records. RC (02:02:40): Yeah. SM (02:02:42): Barry Goldwater and Dwight Eisenhower. RC (02:02:46): Well, I liked Goldwater. SM (02:02:57): Yeah, it is the first time. I will turn this off. RC (02:02:58): I think Goldwater was hero to conservatives during the (19)60s, and I think Eisenhower was a president who for a long time was underrated, but I think there is now more recognition that he was a very effective and good president. SM (02:03:22): How about Harry Truman when boomers were babies? RC (02:03:29): Yeah. I think that in terms of foreign policy, Truman largely did a good job, domestic policy. He was a liberal, and I think less so. SM (02:03:52): Daniel Ellsberg, Pentagon papers. RC (02:03:57): Yeah. As I recall, he stole and made public classified information. SM (02:04:24): Right. RC (02:04:27): Which the Pentagon papers were, and you should not do that. Even if you think that... I mean, this again gets to this conservative point that even if you're convinced you're right, that does not mean that you break the law. SM (02:04:54): John Dean? RC (02:05:13): I know that he was an excellent White House official and was one of the first people to blow the whistle, to reveal what the administration had done with Watergate, but I do not remember much else about him. SM (02:05:55): Muhammad Ali? RC (02:05:57): Was a great boxer. I did not share his politics, but he was not a political philosopher. I guess the question is whether he was a draft dodger or somebody who, for legitimate religious reasons did not want to serve. I am more inclined to the former view than the latter, but I have no window into his soul. SM (02:06:53): Woodward and Bernstein? RC (02:06:57): Good reporters. I have no objection to reporters doing their job. SM (02:07:13): Yeah. You already responded to Woodward and Bernstein. RC (02:07:18): Yeah, I think they were reporters doing their job. SM (02:07:22): William Westmoreland, the guy who oversaw the- RC (02:07:26): Yeah. No, he was the general in charge for a lot of the time during Vietnam. I am not really in a position to critique- SM (02:07:39): The ERA and why it failed? RC (02:07:42): Well, I think it failed largely because of the efforts of Phyllis Schlafly. I think that she was right to oppose it. The problem with the ERA is that nobody knew, and nobody still knows, what exactly it would do. And it does not make sense to amend the Constitution for what was essentially symbolic reasons when you do not know with a fair degree of certainty what the actual effects of that amendment are going to be. We already have the 14th amendment, which makes it very difficult for governments at any level to engage in sex discrimination. Nobody is in favor of prohibiting sex discrimination to the same degree that race discrimination is prohibited; and yet, I mean, there is a good argument that the Equal Rights Amendment would do that. And so, does that mean that, for instance, the military cannot make any distinctions with respect to sex? That sexual distinction is not going to be allowed with respect to government jobs where it is a bonafide occupational qualification? For instance, hiring prison guards or things like that, medical research. I mean, it purports to be a categorical ban on sex discrimination. I think that nobody is really in favor of a categorical ban on sex discrimination. SM (02:10:06): Harvey Milk, because he is the epitome of the gay and lesbian movement. RC (02:10:11): Yeah. I just do not know enough about that. Again, I said at the outset, I think that gay people should not be beaten up or jailed or anything like that; but on the other hand, I think that objection to homosexuality is not the same thing as racial discrimination or gender discrimination. SM (02:11:01): Tet. RC (02:11:04): Well, I think that... I guess it is now pretty much accepted that while it was a military failure for the communists in Vietnam, the Tet Offensive was a political defeat for the good guys of Vietnam and that the media bears some of the blame for that. SM (02:11:51): I am down to the final thing, which is the final presidents that we are going to ask about, but since you were a lawyer, I cannot leave without asking you, just a quick thought on Roe V. Wade- SM (02:12:03): Just a quick thought on Roe v. Wade and the two civil rights bills that President Johnson signed in (19)64 and (19)65. We're talking about three major events. Roe v. Wade was in the (19)70s, but these are major decisions in boomer lives. RC (02:12:18): Yeah. SM (02:12:18): So just your thoughts on the two civil rights acts. I have not asked this to other people. I am only asking it to lawyers. RC (02:12:26): Well, I think that one point that I always make about the two pieces of civil legislation is that in both houses, the percentage of Republicans who supported it was higher than the percentage of Democrats who supported it. Both pieces of legislation, yeah. And that is something that is frequently forgotten. SM (02:12:50): Is that because Everett Dirksen was such a big supporter of it. Because Everett was a big supporter. RC (02:12:55): Yeah, he was. And that would explain the Senate. It would not necessarily explain the House. I think that part of it was because there were so many Democrats at that time, so the Democrats were opposed to it. Yeah. But anyway, it shows, I think the Republicans now do not get enough credit for that. I think that both bills obviously had much good in them and were certainly well-intentioned. I think that in both cases, the way that the bureaucrats and the judges subsequently interpreted and enforced them turned them on their heads to some extent, so that instead of prohibiting discrimination across the board the way they were written and intended, they now are interpreted to allow, and in some places require politically correct discrimination on the basis of race and ethnicity. The Roe versus Wade was a very bad Supreme Court decision. There is nothing in the Constitution, one way or the other, about abortion. And it was a classic instance of judicial activism for the court to read such a constitutional right into the Constitution. And it has had all kinds of bad consequences. Not only bad consequences in the sense that there are lots of dead babies because of it, but also bad consequences in that it has removed the whole abortion discussion from the political and legislative arena and put it in the courts, which are not really equipped to deal with those issues. SM (02:15:09): I am going to end with the Presidents, because we have already talked about many of them up to the 1970s. Just your thoughts on Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter. RC (02:15:29): Well, I think that Ford will be remembered positively for the role he played in the nation's healing. After Nixon, we needed a Gerald Ford. We needed a very down to earth man of strong, positive character who was a quite unpolarizing figure. Carter was one of the, I think, least successful Presidents of the century, partly because his policies did not make any sense, partly because of his own personality. And I think the failings of his personality have become more evident since he left office. It was just a very... SM (02:17:12): How about Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr.? Both of them. I am going to turn this- (02:17:24): Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr. RC (02:17:27): Well, I think Reagan will be remembered as one of the great Presidents, not only of the 20th century but also in American history, because of his leadership in bringing the Cold War to a successful conclusion, and also to returning the United States to free market principles at a time when we were headed away from them. And more generally, for a renaissance of conservative leadership. George Bush, Bush 41, I think that he was an unsuccessful President in terms of persuading people that he knew he was doing in terms of domestic policy. But I think that he may still be remembered well by historians because of his foreign policy. SM (02:19:13): The Gulf War. RC (02:19:15): Well, even before the Gulf War, he presided over the demise of the Soviet Union and the liberation of Eastern Europe. And that was a very critical period, and it could have gotten screwed up, but he did not screw it up. SM (02:19:49): The last two, obviously, Bill Clinton and George Bush. And I say these two gentlemen, because in some of my interviews people say these two gentlemen really define the boomer generation. And they give me their reasons. Even though they one was a conservative and one's ... I am not sure if Bill is truly a ... I think he is more center than what his wife's turned out to be. But what is it about them that people would say that both these men truly define the boomer generation? And then your overall thoughts on the [inaudible] Presidents? RC (02:20:27): Well, they were boomers. And I guess they were the first Presidents who were boomers. And I suppose in some respects, they were on opposite sides during the (19)60s. Clinton avoided serving in the war and smoked pot, even if he did not inhale. He certainly seemed to have bought into the sexual revolution. And I think you are right that to call him just a liberal is maybe an oversimplification, but certainly more liberal than Bush. I actually think that it's more problematic to call Bush a conservative than it is to call Clinton a liberal. And of course, Bush was not exactly a war hero either, nor was he somebody who eschewed mind-altering substances. But I think it would be hard to argue that Clinton was an unsuccessful President. I mean, he was President during a period of peace and prosperity. And I think that the extent to which he deserves credit for either of those, it is up for debate. And you can argue that by not being more proactive with respect to terrorism, that he sowed the seeds for 9/11. So I do not think he will be badly remembered because of the substance of his presidency. I think that he will always be associated with Monica Lewinsky, which is too bad for him, but I think it is also too bad for all of us. Bush, I said that I am not sure that you really can characterize him as conservative. I think that in terms of domestic policy, there are many respects that he was not a conservative. He certainly was not a small government conservative. He cut taxes. I suppose that that is conservative. But he also increased federal spending in lots of ways. In my area, a mixed record at best in terms of civil rights. I think that history will judge him based on the War on Terror and how that turns out. That was certainly his top priority. And I do not know enough, and it may be that nobody really knows enough yet to know how successful he was, to what extent what he did is the reason why there were no subsequent successful attacks in the United States, whether the progress he made in fighting Al-Qaeda and killing or capturing its leaders made a big difference. We do not know yet. And of course, depending on how this President does, that will affect how he has judged. SM (02:25:26): A question I asked earlier about the trust factor, about how many boomers did not trust because leaders did things; well, as boomers’ approach senior citizen status, as the frontline boomers are now 62 years old, eligible for social security, the last two Presidents have also done things that are just the same old SOS, as they say. President Clinton being on television, "I did not have sex with that woman," and then George Bush, the weapons of mass destruction. As many people believe, there's two liars right there again. So it is just some people interpret it as such. RC (02:26:04): Well, I do not know. Of course, I am a conservative Republican, so maybe I have my own prejudices, but I think those are two very different statements. And I think that Clinton's statement that he did not have sex with Monica Lewinsky is either a flat-out lie, or what would in some ways be even worse, a sort of ... I forget how he worded it exactly, but something like, "Well, since I did not have actual vaginal intercourse, therefore I did not have sexual" ... you know. It would almost be better to lie, I think, than to mislead somebody and pretend that you're telling them the truth, the whole truth, which is what you would have there. I am not convinced, and I am not sure that anybody ... well, there probably are some people, but I am certainly not convinced that Bush, at the time he said that there were weapons of mass destruction, did not believe that there were weapons of mass destruction. SM (02:27:38): Colin Powell said it, and many people think that ruined his career. RC (02:27:40): Yeah. I mean, if you make a statement that turns out not to be true, but you thought it was true, that is not a lie. SM (02:27:49): Right. I agree. RC (02:27:49): You have made a false statement, but it is not a lie. A lie, there has to be intent. So if Bush knew that there were not weapons of mass destruction and was deliberately making a false statement, okay, well that is a lie. And truth be told, that would be a bigger lie than lying about sex, because the stakes are higher when you are telling a lie in order to justify getting the United States into a war as opposed to trying to save your own political high. But I do not think it was a lie. SM (02:28:32): I end by saying that President Obama's of course the last President of the boomers, and he is a boomer. He would have been two years old in the very end, but he still is a boomer. And of course, [inaudible] does not remember all this stuff, but it's too early to judge him overall. A lot of people want to judge him early. But- RC (02:28:51): Nobel prize. SM (02:28:53): Yeah. That really shocked me. But a lot of people that were involved in the anti- war movement, a lot of the liberals from that period, a lot of my friends feel that finally, after all these years, we had one of ours back in there. It was not Clinton. It is Obama. This is a man who really ... even though he was not in the (19)60s, is part of the (19)60s because of who he is, what he believes. Your thoughts on just the short term. And most of the times, when I interview people, I never get a chance to ask some of these questions here on the Presidents because I have sometimes only an hour, sometimes 30 minutes. So it is great. Just your thoughts so far on President Obama and what he really stands for. And to a lot of boomers, he stands for progress. RC (02:29:40): Well, I think that that is what a lot of conservatives are afraid of. They too think that Obama is much more left-wing than he ran as. And I think that there's a lot of evidence of that. And we will see. But of course, we elect Presidents. We do not elect kings. And that is relevant in two respects. Number one, no matter how liberal a president is, there are political constraints on what he can do. We have existing laws, we have courts, and we have Congress. Even though the Democrats do not control Congress, changing the laws, he has to go through Congress, and there are enough Republicans there to slow or even stop more radical kinds of change. On the other hand, when you elect a President, you elect not just the President, you elect a whole administration. I think on some issues, like civil rights, the President himself may have somewhat more conservative instincts than the people he is likely to appoint. But you are stuck with the political appointees, excepting the relatively rare instances where an issue gets [inaudible] away to the Presidents- SM (02:31:52): A lot of people believe that if Hillary had won and gotten in, there would be no difference. Just a different color. Because she is a liberal too. RC (02:32:00): Well, yeah. I think you have to ask, whatever they themselves think of these different views, they are going to be facing the same Congress, they are going to be facing the same constraints, and probably a lot of the people that they would have appointed would have been the same people. And so it is not a choice between King Barack and Queen Hillary. It is between an Obama administration and a Clinton administration. And there may not be a lot of difference between the two. SM (02:32:36): When the best history books are written, and they are normally written 50 years after an event ... a lot of the best World War II books are coming out now, and I wish my dad was alive to be able to read them, because he died seven years ago. But when the best history books are written about the boomer generation, maybe as boomers have passed beyond when they are alive, what do you think historians and sociologists will be saying about this generation? Because after all, the people that will be writing these books will not be boomers. They will be generation Xers who will be reaching old age, there will be millennials who will be in middle age, and there will be the following generation, generation Y or whatever it is called. What do you think they will be writing about this generation, and saying about it? RC (02:33:30): I do not think that they will be writing about it as a generation. Think about it. I think to some extent, this is a phenomenon of the fact that we are in it now, but 50 years from now, I think that most historians will write about individuals. Individual biographies and the individual issues and events and all that. And they may write about radicals in the 1960s, or conservatives in the 1960s, or civil rights leaders in the 1960s or something like that. But as we have discussed, I think that there is too much heterogeneity among boomers for it to be a useful analytical device for most history. And I think that it is rare to have history, I think, that focuses on generations. I think that most history looks at events and individuals and particular groups of individuals. Now, sometimes there are exceptions to that. And when we talked about the Civil War generation, that may be different. When you have a cataclysmic event like that, where literally a whole cohort of people are swept up and have to go off to war and a lot of them are killed, that may be different. And maybe even the greatest generation, with the twin events of World War II and the Depression, maybe you can treat that generation as... But still, when you think about it, when Brokaw wrote The Greatest Generation, this was something that was sort of new. People had not written about the (19)50s generation. Or I do not know what they would write about, but I think it is very novelty shows. This is not the way that history is normally written. And I think it will remain the exception, rather than the rule. SM (02:36:40): I cannot believe I did not ask you, just your quick thoughts on Martin Luther King Jr. He gave that great Vietnam speech, which set him apart from the other civil rights leaders, and he got criticized for it. But just your overall thoughts on him. You have already talked about Malcolm X. You have said some things about him. But Dr. King and his importance in this period? RC (02:36:59): Well, I think that King will be remembered. And the reason that we have a national holiday is because of his crusade for racial equality. And that was a literally heroic effort. I think the word heroism is overused these days, but in that time and place, he was putting his life on the line, and ultimately died because of the principle of racial equality. I think, unfortunately ... well, not unfortunately. In addition to believing in racial equality, he believed in economic redistribution and the anti-war movement and a lot of things like that, which are much more open to debate. But- SM (02:38:13): And he was a proponent that to get anything, you have got to agitate. You have got to continue to agitate. Now, he believed in the non-violent approach. He and Bayard Rustin were of the same realm, the non-violent approach. And that famous picture with Stokely Carmichael standing next to Dr. King. Dr. King had his arms like this, and obviously he was tense, because Stokely Carmichael was telling him, "Your time has passed." And he was telling him. And that is the same thing that Malcolm X did to Bayard Rustin in a debate they had at, I think, Columbia. "Your time has passed." Like James Farmer, Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, Ralph Abernathy, Martin Luther King, Bayard Rustin, all that group. Jesse, even though he was younger. "Your time's passed. Black power now." So Dr. King had to put up with a lot. Some people said he had the heart of a 70-year-old when he died, because he was under medicine, blood pressure. Unbelievable stuff. RC (02:39:19): Yeah, yeah, sure. I am sure that is all true. SM (02:39:24): But I have asked you a lot. Is there a question I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask that you wanted to add? RC (02:39:30): No, I do not think so. I will think about it. If there is anything I want to add, I will send you an email or call you up. SM (02:39:38): I have a waiver here, which I am missing. If I can find it here ... oh, got it. I guess we have to make a copy of this. Would you be able to make a copy? RC (02:39:49): Sure. SM (02:39:50): And then you could sign it and you can read it and keep a copy to yourself. I wrote on this one. RC (02:39:53): Oh, okay. That is all right. SM (02:39:57): See, the first 50 people, I did not know I had to have a waiver. I was new to this. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Roger Clegg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Clegg, Roger ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Center for Equal Opportunity; Clegg, Roger--Interviews Description An account of the resource Roger Clegg is the President and General Counsel of the Center for Equal Opportunity. He was the Deputy Assistant Attorney General for both the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations. He specializes in legal issues arising from civil rights laws including immigration and bilingual education. Clegg received his Bachelor's degree from Rice University and is a graduate of Yale University Law School. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-12-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.38a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.38b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 160:15 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/32264e48644f38df8546aeb227dd4a2b.jpg 60e741077397563658a521e7bce10d76 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3db5a7c4f78e21dc590b59cf38d0fe35.mp3 7058cd8ccdc32bf52785b0090d256f28 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1997-07-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ronald D. Castille Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Ronald D. Castille served on the US Supreme Court in Pennsylvania from 1994 to 2014 and was promoted to the Chief Justice in 2008, staying until 2014. Castille retired from office at the age of 70. He received his Bachelor's degree in Economics from Auburn University. He joined the U.S Marine Corps and received several awards along his journey. Castille received his Juris Doctorate from the University of Virginia School of Law after his medical retirement from the Marine Corps.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Ronald D. Castille served on the US Supreme Court in Pennsylvania from 1994 to 2014 and was promoted to the Chief Justice in 2008, staying until 2014. Castille retired from office at the age of 70. He received his Bachelor's degree in Economics from Auburn University. He joined the U.S Marine Corps and received several awards along his journey. Castille received his Juris Doctorate from the University of Virginia School of Law after his medical retirement from the Marine Corps.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Anti-war protest; Civil rights movement; William Buckley; Bill Buckley; Hippies; Sexual Revolution; Drugs; the Vietnam War; Counterculture; Activism; Equality; Jim Crow; Segregation; Black Panthers; Feminism; Gay Rights; Native American Movement; Baby boom generation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Anti-war protest; Civil rights movement; William Buckley; Bill Buckley; Hippies; Sexual Revolution; Drugs; the Vietnam War; Counterculture; Activism; Equality; Jim Crow; Segregation; Black Panthers; Feminism; Gay Rights; Native American Movement; Baby boom generation</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 73:36 Subject LCSH Marines; Pennsylvania. Supreme Court; Judges; Castille, Ronald D.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ron Castille Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 16 July 1997 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:05): So, I am going to do that here today as well. Thanks again for taking time out of your busy schedule. First question I would like to ask deals with the issue of, how much time do we have today? We have about an hour? RC (00:00:19): Yeah. Because we have to take a break at about three o'clock real quick to go ahead and get free ice cream sundaes. SM (00:00:26): And then we can come back? RC (00:00:27): Yeah, they are bringing them to the floor. SM (00:00:28): Oh great. RC (00:00:29): I guess some kind of commercial deal by the [inaudible]. SM (00:00:34): I saw that in the hallway there, near the elevator. First question is today I have seen a lot of the media that commentators like George Will, I have even heard [inaudible] and several individuals, politicians from both the Democratic and Republican side who will look at the issues facing America today and the problems we have in America today and they will pinpoint them back to when the boomers were young basically blaming the problems on boomers for what is happening in America today. I would like your thoughts, just your personal thoughts from whether that is true historically, and from your own personal experience what your thoughts on the boomers’ impact and linkage with the problems of today in America. RC (00:01:19): I guess it did impact society in that just the opposite of what JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Well that era sort of got away from that what I can do for [inaudible]. They go their individual rights elevated above everything else. It became kind of selfish to some extent in that the focus was not on the greater good of society but was on whatever made them happy. Hence all that stuff about free love, and dodging the draft, and what is good for me is what is right. So the focus became inward rather than outward. And we're probably only just starting to come back around. SM (00:02:14): So, in a sense you are kind of in agreement with those social commentators that a lot of the things today in America, whether it be the breakup of the American family, which is of course the high divorce rate we see today, the drug culture amongst young people which is on the increase, some of the strife we have, the lack of respect oftentimes for authority figures. You see direct relation to the boomer. It is a bloomer quality. RC (00:02:38): Yeah, I see that. It is all to that time. I kind of grew up in the (19)50s. That was the country and the parents and the church, [inaudible] the institutions of government held in high esteem [inaudible] Vietnam [inaudible]. For me it is all [inaudible]. The nation where everybody thought, at one time they thought the marijuana was really bad [inaudible]. It might have been the drug of choices at the schools, at the law school in (19)69, (19)68, graduated in (19)71. Just one side were the juicers, which [inaudible] and the doper is the one that smoked marijuana. I have got people that were experimenting with drugs and [inaudible] it is I guess the taboo that drugs were that [inaudible]. SM (00:03:37): Check your [inaudible]. That will do fine. What do you feel is the overall impact of the boomer generation, if you look at the year 1997 as we are heading into 1998? This is kind of a two-part question. What has been the overall impact of boomers on America? Because boomers right now are reaching 50. Because boomers are categorized as people who were born between 1946 and 1964. And what would you say would be the positive qualities and the negative qualities of the boomer generation? RC (00:04:19): The negative, some of that I just spoke of. The elevation of individual rights over the collective common good. I guess the positive things, sure they make people a little more questioning rather than just going along with the institutions of society and questions about how they function, and some of the problems they have been ignored were brought to the forefront. So, there was more of a typical questioning of what was going around their society. The civil rights movements, the [inaudible], which was partly the boomer generation at the same time. And the [inaudible] all these different rights. Like the stop and search, and the suppression it was forward in the (19)60s. To some extent that is healthy questioning the society and what it is all about, what it does and how it handles some of the problems. But because we're better off today than we were back then, certain groups are always complaining about racism, if you could transport them from today back to the (19)60s you would find a totally different problem. I went to Auburn in Alabama, I graduated in (19)66, and I think in (19)65 was when they integrated [inaudible]. [inaudible] about diversity at Auburn. So, it was an all-white school [inaudible] civil rights because of that. So, I guess it was helping that they questioned society what was provided to people. So healthy skepticism and a willingness to make things better [inaudible]. SM (00:06:16): One of the things that I am trying to get at is, because I work in a college environment today, and boomers were young once. There is a lot of activism happening during that era, but the overall impact that boomers have had on their children. I bring this in because I feel that looking at a term that was often used in those times, the generation gap. That was the world war two generation, the boomers, the gap that happened there. And now if there is such a gap between boomers and their children, which is generation Xers. Could you comment on your thoughts of that time using your own metaphor of your life? Any experiences you may have had regarding that generation gap. And also comparing that to a generation gap of today. RC (00:07:00): I guess back in the (19)60s there was a real generation gap once people started wearing long hair and listening to rock and roll. So yeah, that really was not the change or the gap that they referred to was [inaudible] age and changing totally. That Glenn Miller era, Elvis Presley and The Beatles. I think they [inaudible] trending styles. [inaudible] with whatever they were told and what was handed out to them. [inaudible] the IRME sort of started going back to as far as I can tell is trying to get more altruistic and involved in society [inaudible], no protests [inaudible]. SM (00:07:53): Occasionally there will be protests, especially over issues like lack of representation on a student newspaper. African-American students might do that, and that is happened in the last couple of years at different universities. Lack of representation, but other than that no. I have not seen a whole lot. RC (00:08:10): That is what's changed. They are more willing to be, I would not say docile, but believe that the institution of society serves a function, and they have some good. [inaudible] just like, let us tear it down and start all over, [inaudible]. Then an organization like the SDS or weatherman frequency that we have. SM (00:08:36): No? RC (00:08:36): No that is the difference, I think [inaudible 00:08:38] were things that made this country strong over the years, morality. But unless you're just like us aides. I think they like to drink beer and stuff more, do not they? SM (00:08:48): It is a definite yes. RC (00:08:51): Well that is not a norm back in the (19)50s. SM (00:08:54): Party time was a very important term. This takes right into another aspect, activism. Activism was always an adjective to describe many of the boomers, but we know from studying sociology and so forth that only 15 percent of the 76 million boomers were really active. It could be liberals or conservatives, but it really got involved in some aspect of the issues of the time. And 85 percent really just went on with their daily lives, so to speak. Your thoughts on the concept of activism at that time? And whether that activism has transferred into boomers lives as they have approached 50. And whether they have been able to transfer that activism to their children. RC (00:09:37): I do not know about their children, [inaudible] children. Activism, the most active people of every-every color. [inaudible] and marching, and not willing to have a rational conversation, not willing to work [inaudible] active people of that time. I went to law school. I was I just at the battle in Vietnam. I spent 15 months in a hospital in Virginia. And at that time there was all those campus protests and all that stuff. It seemed that Virginia, [inaudible] got a small minority out there just yelling and waving the Viet Cong flag [inaudible]. Well, the institution was like college campus, functioning student newspaper, fraternities and things like that. So there probably was a small group of activists. I do not even think those people are activists anymore unless they are [inaudible] communities trying to make their [inaudible] traditional [inaudible] school and things like that [inaudible]. SM (00:10:41): [inaudible], yeah. RC (00:10:42): If they were to walk out today, and you say how many other people are there like this? [inaudible ]. My perspective, [inaudible] is tainted to some extent. There have always been elected officials where we could have bettered society. SM (00:10:59): Would not you say though that what you're doing with your life is carrying out some of that activism. Going on to become a lawyer, going on to become a judge. And then you ran for political office. One of the most admirable qualities- RC (00:11:10): I am a [inaudible], I am not an activist. I was always involved in things. I was in the student body in high school, I went to Air Corps Marines, and that drove me to [inaudible] always be the best. And [inaudible] in student counsel in college too. Senator [inaudible]. So, he started to do that, I was always active in that sense and in that sense without more [inaudible] the existing system. When I was in law school I was the Vice President of the law school, I was one of the editors of the-the law school students’ newspaper. I was doing that. And I was elected DA two times here in the Supreme Court. It is not activism, I think they look at activism as destructive kind of stuff. I am more of a dragging on of tradition. Some people would call me reactionary. SM (00:12:12): But I can give you a [inaudible] Harry told me about that if you're talking about your contribution to society being a judge and a lawyer, that you got involved with the Vietnam Memorial here in Philadelphia. And the contribution to society and showed activism there of seeing something that needed to be done and doing it. That was certainly activism at its finest. RC (00:12:33): Yeah, that was a healing sort of thing. Everybody does a preliminary when I was in law school. There was probably a bunch of guys in Vietnam [inaudible] was an assistant DA. There were guys that he knew and served [inaudible]. I brought people all over the city. We have talked about it, [inaudible] publicity that I have because of the [inaudible]. That was sort of a healing tone. It felt like [inaudible]. SM (00:13:01): [inaudible] year anniversary coming up. RC (00:13:02): Yeah [inaudible]. We did a good job on that one [inaudible] $2 million. I was actually and owner of the memorial at one time because [inaudible] gave us a property but on the condition that we turn it over to the Fairmount Park after we are through. But the Fairmount Park did not want it because I know [inaudible] raised X hundred thousands of dollars more from- SM (00:13:29): The ends of this issue a [inaudible]. RC (00:13:32): [inaudible] I am on the board of the boy scouts, I am the US Ward[inaudible] handicap people are [inaudible] some kid of activities that help. Then we have sports [inaudible] it was more of the traditional sense of prolong what I think are good things- SM (00:13:57): [inaudible] the two major issues of boomers was certainly the Vietnam War and the civil rights movement. And your point-blank thoughts on how important the boomers were in ending this war. Whether it is direct response to the students who were protesting on college campuses. Again, probably that 15 percent that were involved. How important were they in ending the war and what was the reason that the war ended? RC (00:14:22): They probably had some input in it. They actually got to see war a lot more than we did because of television. The Korea War, they did not have towers and TV and what brought things home pretty radically to the people. And then [inaudible] it was in your living room. So [inaudible] was [inaudible] a lot of the protest. None of them want to be there and get shot [inaudible] pressure. Probably rethink their positions. And then a lot of people came with us military guys that came back from Vietnam and started raising hell about it. [inaudible] what they did [inaudible] return their medals and speak out against the was saying [inaudible] the whole thing was misguided and screwed up. I think when those kinds of people started raising their voices too- SM (00:15:17): And their [inaudible] RC (00:15:17): Yeah. SM (00:15:17): [inaudible] RC (00:15:18): Yeah, they have [inaudible] saw them on TV [inaudible] educational channel. I think it is probably one of those [inaudible]. Yeah, when those people start speaking up [inaudible] students handled with care. We do not want people coming back and complaining about the screwed up [inaudible] lost. The thing was prolonged for years. They played a role [inaudible]. SM (00:15:44): Also so when Jack Smith said from ABC news, because I interviewed him last fall he point blank said that the main reason why this war ended was when the body bags started coming home and mothers and fathers and middle America saw it on television. Said there's no other reason why, that is the reason why. Do you agree with that? RC (00:16:04): I absolutely agree with that. The first one where you could get a 15 minutes of combat right at dinner. This was the-the first-time war was an actual war, the reality of it was brought home by the [inaudible]. We did not get to see the whole thing. That is probably the military's biggest mistake was letting the reporters out into the field to do whatever they wanted. SM (00:16:31): Had more controls on that during the Gulf war. Remember they had to stay back there and they did not allow them. RC (00:16:36): They had to stay in the rear with the gear and they give you a brief. SM (00:16:39): How important were the boomers in the civil rights movement? RC (00:16:43): They were important too. I think other than the blacks down in south, if nobody came down to help them it would probably have still been the same. And the college kids were spending their summers down there. [inaudible] that I was in the south at the time so I can put the [inaudible] tremendously. Contested the old John Crow laws. SM (00:17:04): Have you changed your opinions at all on the boomers for the last 25 years? Your thoughts when you were a college student at Auburn, and then when you were a young professional and coming back from the war. Then to go through rehab and then now as a judge. Do you look at things differently or are you pretty consistent in your thoughts? RC (00:17:22): I am probably pretty consistent in my thoughts. A bunch of them were jerks, a bunch of them were cowards, [inaudible]. Or cutting back on the use of drugs. Some guys that served in Vietnam were addicts and stuff like that. I respected those individuals. I actually respected the people that said [inaudible]. The others I [inaudible] wen to Sweden and Canada. I hope they never come back. [inaudible]. Those individuals that totally evaded all responsibility. SM (00:18:10): [inaudible] all the respect of, if you were to have a meeting with several of those individuals to sit down and have a civil dialogue, or you just would not even deal with them? RC (00:18:19): I have dealt with them. One guy was John [inaudible] who we dealt with. SM (00:18:23): That is right, the one that Howard stern destroyed. RC (00:18:30): He was really helpful to us in [inaudible]. But he never served in the military, he was a war protestor himself. But no, he did not go to Canada or wherever. He might have had a deferment and everything. But I guess those people were misguided to some extent in that they were protesting the war and did not even have content. They started seeing the light after [inaudible 00:18:57]. So I work with people like that. The ones I do not like nowadays are the ones who were in Vietnam when they were in the military when they [inaudible]. SM (00:19:12): Oh, I know that because I have been going down to them a lot the last couple of years to the ceremonies on Veterans Day and Memorial Day. And I will never forget that my conversation with Joe Galloway. I do not know if you know him? RC (00:19:24): [inaudible] yeah. SM (00:19:24): Yeah, he was US news [inaudible] and wrote report, he wrote When Were Young Once. That was an [inaudible]. I interviewed him and he said, that is the thing that upsets him the most. You cannot believe how many Vietnam imposters there are in there at the ceremonies. Yes, and they lie and they sit there and they actually have a medals on. There is no question that is the... We have got a target there because that is what Joe was talking about too. RC (00:19:50): [inaudible] he was the worst of them all. [inaudible]. It was a human example of stark cowardice [inaudible]. SM (00:20:02): Later in the interview we are going to go over some names here, but now that you have mentioned his name, your thoughts on that book in retrospect. Whether you bought the book or have you read the book, your thoughts about that, knowing about 1967, that he knew back then that the war was bad mistake. RC (00:20:20): He was a coward, he did not [inaudible]. He gave a speech to Valley Forge Military Academy, a graduating class. Mentioned him [inaudible] in the military [inaudible] say what you think is correct. And this otherwise, and not mention [inaudible] power he was when he came to his conclusion that the war was wrong in (19)67. That is something like seven to 10,000 dead. But he did not say one thing to Johnson. [inaudible] and just never said one thing about it until 20 years later. SM (00:20:54): And one of the characteristics that boomers used to say, we are the most unique generation in American history. We are different than any generation that proceeded us. And because of the times with the civil rights, protests against the Vietnam War, the women's movement, the Native American movement, there were a lot of movements at that time. There was somewhat of an arrogance and the cockiness that the boomers at that time felt they were the most unique generation. Some may still feel that. Your thoughts on that terminology that the boomer generation is the most unique generation in American history. RC (00:21:25): They were just a collection of assholes. Probably the most unique generation we have ever had is the people that moved out of the east coast of the United States. They were going into Kentucky and Tennessee. I always go to these state parks and I look at these things and say, man can you imagine somebody driving a wagon through this place. [inaudible] unbelievable hardship to settle in a country. So the people who moved out of the original colonies and moved across the nation to California who's encompassing more than one generation. But the boomer generation [inaudible] danger was you might get drafted and go to Vietnam. Most of the time you will not be near that much danger in Vietnam. SM (00:22:15): Of the 3 million that served in Vietnam, how many actually served on the front lines? RC (00:22:20): [inaudible] something about that where they said for every soldier [inaudible] had had nine people packing them up. SM (00:22:24): This feeling that many hand that we are going to change the world in a positive way, that was a mentality in 1968, in 1997. Have they? RC (00:22:38): The generation before them is the generation that changed the world, the world war two people when they came back. American was a different place pre-world war two and then after world war two, [inaudible] the country up until the Bush [inaudible 00:22:55] Strongly against communism, Vietnam being part of it. But they held on against communism, and when those individuals that came back [inaudible] I am serving four years in the war I was just strongly as a country man [inaudible]. SM (00:23:14): I referred earlier to the fact that sociologists and historians will say that 15 percent of the boomers, which is 76 million, really got involved with some sort of activism. And that could be liberals or conservatives. Whatever their stance was at that time on different issues. Some have said that that is a lessening of the impact of this generation has had, because they will say only 15 percent were really involved, 85 percent went on with their lives and did not really care about the issues. And thus, when you look at today and you see that their children do not vote and they do not vote that that 85 percent is having greater impact than the 15 percent as they have gotten older. Your thoughts on that and whether you feel that that kind of mentality is lessening the impact again on the boomers and their involvement in the issues of the time. Whether it be against racism, sexism, some of the issues linked to the movements. RC (00:24:04): I do not really know. Are you saying that they had no impact at 15 percent? SM (00:24:12): No, they had impact, but by saying that they had only 15 percent of them were involved was really 85 percent were not involved. RC (00:24:21): And they were involved in it at some extent in that they were carrying on the tradition of our society, the institutions, home, family, jobs. SM (00:24:32): They were involved. RC (00:24:32): To that extent though they have been part of what America is all about. [inaudible] by the activists. People talking about the way that you should be. Why should we take everything verbatim or per se or [inaudible] follow along, let us have some questions. Which I think I think that generation did that asking questions. And it did help change the [inaudible] problems of society. In the (19)60s with the civil rights movement, all this questioning of the status quo that everybody could be talking about it and [inaudible] who has to decide [inaudible] the debates started back in [inaudible] there was no debate in the (19)50s [inaudible]. SM (00:25:25): I have been to the Vietnam Memorial, we got four more minutes on this side of the tape, I have been to the Vietnam Memorial many times. I am sure you have in Washington. Obviously when that wall was built, it was meant to be a nonpolitical statement. It was to pay on honor tribute to those who served. Knowing that in this nation the Vietnam veterans were not treated properly when they returned. And it was in a Jan Scrubs and the people involved in that, they did a tremendous job. And they certainly have encouraged many morals around the country like you that were involved in here as a nonpolitical entity. So, we were getting into the aspect of one of the goals of that wall, which was the healing. The healing of not only the Vietnam veterans and their families and loved ones. But just basically the divisions that took place in America at that time, even by those who were for and against the war. Those who served those who did not serve. Your thoughts on the healing process in America as 1997 with respect to, has the nation healed from this war? Which was one of the goals of the wall. And has it healed up certain groups more than others? And in what areas do we still have a long way to go with respect to healing and bringing our nation together because there were so many divisions at that time? RC (00:26:46): Well actually the first thing that brought the healing was when they had the unknown soldier from Vietnam [inaudible] at Washington. People filed by that by the millions I guess. [inaudible] realize, yes Anne. Anne (00:27:06): Pardon me, I just want to let you know that it is ice cream. RC (00:27:08): Okay. SM (00:27:12): People started filing by that. RC (00:27:15): [inaudible] then realizing that this guy gave up his life for his [inaudible] in Vietnam, it is still a dead American [inaudible]. That was really the first step, that soldier. And then the second one was the wall. When they built that that caused some problems too because to look at a black gash in another [inaudible]. It was pretty impressive to see [inaudible] two of those were really the beginning to getting over the Vietnam war. [inaudible] when it was the Gulf war [inaudible] when I served in [inaudible] to Washington [inaudible] started painting. There is still parts of society that think there is no healing. The blacks are real with the world. I think most of the problems commonly caused by Vietnam are probably behind us. SM (00:28:17): [inaudible]. Again, and we will go to the ice cream. The issue of the divisions. I have been to the wall and had a chance to try to get an ambiance or feel. I feel I must be there to get a feel amongst the veterans as I talked to them. I Got to know Jan and Joe Galloway and some of the people down there. I have brought students to the wall. I do hear things like we can never forgive Bill Clinton, he was the typical draft dodger. We will never forgive Jane Fonda. And obviously she's a lightning rod. But the question is, is this an issue in the lives of Vietnam veterans or is it an issue in your life that, I have moved on with my life time heals everything, the wall was doing a great job, but the divisions of that time, tremendous divisiveness, the lax, the shouting, the disrespect, all these qualities that some people may say have been transferred today into our everyday dialogue. Is it a direct result of that time? And where is the healing over some of these things? RC (00:29:25): I guess we are pretty [inaudible]. I do not think people like Clinton would go to clearly manipulate the system. To an extent they did not like [inaudible] because he had [inaudible]. One-time government had [inaudible] of the guy [inaudible]. The cherry-picked people on the [inaudible]. People like [inaudible] Clinton did it [inaudible] then he bailed out and went to Canada. SM (00:29:53): Fulbright helped him, Senator Fulbright was one of the biggest advocates against the war eventually. RC (00:30:00): I will not say too much, [inaudible] politicians can be. SM (00:30:02): Do you want to get that ice cream now, and [inaudible]. What are your thoughts on people like David Horowitz, or anybody from the left at that era who have become conservatives to the extreme right. Which David Horowitz has become. And of course, he was the editor at Ramparts magazine, now he is one of the leading conservatives going around the country bashing the boomers who were protesting the war and issues of civil rights. Your thoughts on those people who were on the left, who have just totally did an about face and that are condemning those who did not. RC (00:30:45): Maybe they saw the light. Maybe they saw that they were wrong. You cannot condemn a person. You can point it out that he was wrong, and then try to make amends for it. That just sounds like what the guy is trying to do. Could have made a moon [inaudible]. SM (00:31:02): He is one of the biggest names out there now, of people on the college campus, speaking to a lot of different issues like that. RC (00:31:09): People actually come here? SM (00:31:10): Yes, he is drawing good numbers. RC (00:31:13): I was always amazed too [inaudible] I was running for DA or something. They said come [inaudible] be like two people, three people. SM (00:31:29): So [inaudible]. RC (00:31:33): So, I guess the liberal [inaudible] sort of party in the background. Have you ever studied [inaudible] to some extent he was. SM (00:31:43): Just check this man. What do you feel your impact has been on society as a boomer? A person who now is in a very prestigious position. But if you were to look at your, as boomers felt they were going to be change agents for the betterment of the world, do you feel as a boomer or a little bit older than a boomer that you fall in that category? RC (00:32:10): [inaudible] I was born in (19)44. SM (00:32:13): You are in that area because a lot of people [inaudible] feel they are boomers right up to 55 and 56, even though they do not fall into the category. RC (00:32:23): [inaudible] maybe I have had some impact on society. Being an assistant DA, clearing the streets of criminals has some impact. [inaudible] being the DA of the city. Just fix it. It has had some impact on society. And with all the people on death row, it does not matter who [inaudible]. And then this job I am in now is in Speak with Justice, we have an impact on the law an- the structure of [inaudible]. I am trying to bring our hardcore [inaudible] towards the leftist positions [inaudible] personal rights [inaudible] everything else. SM (00:33:12): Do you see yourself running for political office again down the road? RC (00:33:18): Well I do not know, I could probably be in this job for 20 years [inaudible]. But what I am doing in this job is high level work. [inaudible] respect most of us. Mostly the lawyers. A larger section of society, never can say never. That is what my buddy Bob Dole is going to be president. I might have a shot at the US Supreme Court. What does a [inaudible] war veteran [inaudible]. I might someday [inaudible]. The way politics are now it is a whole different subject. Airing it all on TV and all negative with your opponents. SM (00:34:04): What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? RC (00:34:09): It would probably be much [inaudible] anything specific. [inaudible] that make people a little more skeptical and questioning about what goes on in society. [inaudible] anybody suggest anything. SM (00:34:26): [inaudible] would say women have gotten better equality over time because of the movement. RC (00:34:34): I guess I could [inaudible] civil rights. SM (00:34:37): Straight into the [inaudible] lasting legacy, but historians always have this mentality. Well the best history books are yet to be written. And or the best history books will be written in 50 years or 25 years. I am trying to look down the road 25 to 50 years when supposedly the best books are going to be written. Well, how do you think historians are going to treat that period from the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, during those times. The impact on America is changing [inaudible]. RC (00:35:07): I think they are going to probably see the impact on the world, what we did to the world specifically [inaudible] and some of its allies’ cause [inaudible] that is 11 a year [inaudible] to some extent totalitarian. But one thing is our system of government and our economics system and the freedoms that are [inaudible]. Someone is going to [inaudible] that would be known as tox Americana. Just remind [inaudible] you got to go back to the early (19)60s or (19)70s. That is when there was to some extent [inaudible]. You can always go back to world war two, and then America stepping into Korea. [inaudible] a stronger face against communism. [inaudible] Russia is a [inaudible] country now. I guess the Russians must be [inaudible] to [inaudible] stay strong. And then we go in there and [inaudible] collapse. Nothing [inaudible]. To an extent all the generations had their war too. SM (00:36:24): Back to a question we talked about earlier about the healing process within the generation. Do you think it's possible to heal within a generation if the differences in opinions were so extreme? If so, is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Some of this book, project dealing with metaphors people's lives and their opinions historically and personally, is to say that there is no really clear-cut answers. There just needs to be better understanding how people felt. So that this mentality of saying that my opinion's better than someone else's or the pointing of fingers. We need to just really sit down and try to understand people better. How do you feel again about this healing? The effort to heal, Especially from the divisions of the war. RC (00:37:12): [inaudible] I guess all you really need to do is talk to a person. [inaudible]. I will never forgive the people [inaudible] Canada. [inaudible] Clinton [inaudible] Jane Fonda always preaching about the war itself [inaudible]. And then there is [inaudible] Americans [inaudible] let us lose the women thing or just being [inaudible]. SM (00:37:48): How would you compare people who say that the Vietnam War, it may not have been the civil war in America of the 1860s, but it still was a civil war and it was a coming civil war. We were pretty close to a civil war. And your thoughts on people who thought that the many people went to their graves after the civil war without healing toward the other side or forgiving the other side. And that this generation of boomers are going to be going to their graves with still the bitterness in their heart. Thoughts on that kind of thought. RC (00:38:24): Well I do not really know if anybody is bitter anymore. I lost a leg in Vietnam and I am not bitter about having [inaudible]. I do not think there is a lot of people that to me seem to give much thought about it anymore. [inaudible] every waking moment or dwelling moment. [inaudible] is 25 years old and whether it is [inaudible]. SM (00:38:58): How about this issue with trust? People will say, and again, I am using terminology, but we sense that there is a lack of trust in America today toward elected officials, people in positions of power and responsibility, whether they be Governors, Congressmen, Senators, principles of high schools. RC (00:39:17): Supreme Court Justices. SM (00:39:18): Right, Supreme Court Justices, Ministers, CEO, heads of corporations. Because the establishment, there was an attack against the establishment at that time. And that some of the mentality is never trusted people in positions of power and responsibility. And somehow that carried on to the children of today the Xers. Your thoughts on that and where we are in America with respect to trust and how serious that is in American thing. RC (00:39:43): I think I mentioned earlier we had a sense of skepticism in the institutions of [inaudible]. Skepticism is still there. Yeah, maybe it is good [inaudible] you cannot just go [inaudible], I think that is just skepticism which [inaudible]. SM (00:40:12): The lack of trust all the young people have [inaudible] many boomers who are now over 50. RC (00:40:16): I do not know if it is a lack of trust or if it is skepticism. SM (00:40:17): Okay. RC (00:40:18): We accept it we just do not [inaudible] newspapers so they would do something [inaudible]. Not some big investigation. [inaudible] as they are. [inaudible] say what is this really about, was it a political move, was it this and that. So since [inaudible] question by the press, it is the next step that may be more cynical that everybody else. SM (00:40:52): As person who served and went to war, lost a leg, but really went when your nation called, do you feel strongly toward those who did the same? And I will come back, what are your thoughts as a person cared about America and then saw elected officials lie to America, Lyndon Johnson and some people say the Gulf and [inaudible] revolution was made up. We never really should have gone to war. So how Johnson treated the war, obviously you have already made commentary on McNamara, who ran the war. Or did not [inaudible]. And then what you saw with Nixon and Watergate. And then just a lack of trust in public officials because they lied to the Americans. And yet you went to Vietnam, served your country. And then you see the politicians back home lying. Just your thoughts. It does not have to do with you being a Republican or Democrat, just being human. Just your thoughts on those leaders of those times. RC (00:41:49): Yeah, there's a lot of veterans [inaudible]. I remember I had taken [inaudible 00:41:59]. I think we were sitting [inaudible] book and donate it to some veteran’s hospital or something [inaudible]. What was the question [inaudible]? SM (00:42:16): Just your thoughts on the impact it had on you after you served, came back and then saw all this and witnessed all this. What you are feeling as a young man. And then but you still went on and served your country and you are going [inaudible] office. And you have done a lot of good things, but still it had to have an impact on you in some way. RC (00:42:34): [inaudible] impact on me was [inaudible] when I was in Vietnam. It only took me about two weeks to figure out [inaudible] screwed up. And then that is the first thing you did when you got there they sat us [inaudible] rules of engagement. Do not fire at them unless you are [inaudible] casually. Then they would send you out on some stupid patrol when you come back, they'd send you out again on another stupid patrol. [inaudible] that is what we did, that is how it was doomed to fail. [inaudible]. SM (00:43:17): Did you feel when you were going to go to political office, I am never going to be in like Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson or Robert McNamara? [inaudible 00:43:2] that was an inspiration to be better than them? RC (00:43:27): I guess I did go over to [inaudible] teach you a system to use [inaudible] trial advocacy and structure of the DA's office. Got these new DA's in [inaudible] your word is your bond [inaudible] people trust you [inaudible]. [inaudible] that is what people would trust [inaudible]. There is always going to be a first for people [inaudible]. So maybe let us say all these guys filled in like they did with Johnson [inaudible] suckered into a war that we could have won but did not win. SM (00:44:17): All the events when you read on from that period, from high school, college years and the years that you served, one event in America, one event that stands out of all others that had the greatest impact on you, what was that event? RC (00:44:31): Event in America? SM (00:44:34): Yeah, at that time it could be in Vietnam or there was one specific instance. People say the assassination of John Kennedy. Everything is different, everybody said a different [inaudible]. RC (00:44:49): [inaudible]. SM (00:44:54): Kennedy was that experience of his dad telling him that. RC (00:44:56): [inaudible]. SM (00:45:04): Experience informed who you are, that you were injured? RC (00:45:15): [inaudible] a different person, that is for sure. I will not stay in the [inaudible]. SM (00:45:16): One of the terms that always comes out of the youth of the (19)60s is the concept of empowerment, feeling that my voice counts, that people are listening to me. And so students on college campuses, even though they may have been radical and doing a lot of these things, there was a sense of maybe some might say euphoria, but there was a sense of empowerment that I can be a change agent. I am going to help end this war. I am going to help have civil rights and equality for a lot of different people in America. Do you feel this empowerment has continued amongst the 70 something million boomers as they have gone into adult life. And do you feel they have transferred this to their children, this sense of empowerment, which is basically self-esteem? RC (00:45:56): I guess that is one of the changes that happened in the (19)60s from the (19)50s. It seemed like in the (19)50s and early (19)60s the older you were the more you were respected and listened to. If you were young you were just the opposite, you were not listened to. So [inaudible] the younger folks with the experience of [inaudible] free speech [inaudible] school [inaudible] wrote an editorial about that. [inaudible] are you saying what a good thing it was [inaudible] the university [inaudible] your kids. SM (00:46:38): [inaudible]. RC (00:46:39): That is changed entirely. I guess Kennedy [inaudible] that when this started [inaudible]. And so, the-the thinking is I got him, a college kid, [inaudible] somebody ought to listen to him. But I think that still carries on, we still have young people today, we dismiss them just because they're young. Kids can have good ideas and kids can participate [inaudible 00:47:09]. That was probably one of the main [inaudible] in our society [inaudible]. SM (00:47:18): What event do you think defines the boomers then? And not your personal experience, but if there was one event in that timeframe [inaudible] that really defines the boomers. RC (00:47:28): Obviously, I could not ignore the [inaudible] it was just what was happening. Civil rights and women's rights [inaudible]. SM (00:47:37): Coalition of many things? RC (00:47:38): Yeah, [inaudible]. SM (00:47:44): I am going to just list a lot of names here. Just your overall, maybe a couple of sentences, thoughts on each of them. Positive or negative, your thoughts on them and maybe the thoughts that boomers may have had for these people. The first two are Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden. RC (00:48:00): She was a traitor, she should still get prosecuted. I know she tried to apologize a couple of years ago [inaudible]. She has never be forgiven [inaudible]. I think somebody [inaudible] of her sitting in that anti-aircraft gun, [inaudible] Jane the star. And [inaudible] Vietnam [inaudible]. SM (00:48:18): Tom Hayden. RC (00:48:18): I do not know if [inaudible] protester or hell raiser, [inaudible] in California [inaudible]. I saw that [inaudible]. SM (00:48:43): I saw them at Kent State. I saw them at the fourth anniversary of the killings at Kent State, and they were not speaking, they came together. And I will never forget being in that room with them, talking about what happened at Kent State, it was amazing. But she was certainly different. How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin the-the Yippies. RC (00:49:05): They were just a bunch of nutty guys that is all. If today you saw them you would say, man what are these guys? It's like some kind of throwbacks or some kind of hippies. SM (00:49:17): You remember when Abbie Hoffman died, it was in the news. He died over in Bucks County, he had $2,500 in the bank and he had given all of the money away to help people. And he left a note, and the note said that he killed himself. He was an impressive man. But no one was ever listening to me so he just did not want to go on with his life because one was listening anymore. And I said, well maybe the eccentricity is on this man, but are many boomers feeling the same way who cared about the issues of that time? And maybe society is not treating those issues the same way as they did then. Like young people are not listening as much to those issues. And that is why it kind of affects more boomers than just an Abbie Hoffman. Are people listening anymore to some of those issues? RC (00:50:05): [inaudible] I did not forget what Abbie Hoffman [inaudible]. SM (00:50:16): How about Dr. Benjamin Spock. RC (00:50:19): He probably always [inaudible]. I guess his philosophy was let your kids do [inaudible]. A lot of [inaudible]. SM (00:50:30): Timothy Leary. RC (00:50:33): He is another crack pot. Oh, he was probably far more dangerous in that era. He would have [inaudible] I guess all types not just LSD, I think he was everything. [inaudible 00:50:47] take another drug [inaudible]. Some people would have followed that. Not specifically because he said it, but because there was this feeling of they were like yeah, it was not such a bad thing. [inaudible] not have the potential to really [inaudible] our society. SM (00:51:05): What about the black power advocates, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver that whole group, the black power movement and their impact on America? And your thoughts on it. RC (00:51:15): They had some legitimate gripes, there is no doubt about that. The blacks were oppressed to some extent by systems of government and the institution of government, the police and all that stuff. They still are [inaudible] Martin Luther King. But he changed the system, non-violent, said violence was not a very good thing. SM (00:51:41): That leads me right into Dr. King, your thoughts on Dr. King and Malcolm X. RC (00:51:48): [inaudible] I was there when [inaudible]. Everybody in the south canceled their subscriptions to Time when they [inaudible] I think his impact is going to be greater [inaudible] radical change in the south. And he did not even know it too and he did it within the system, he used civil protest. SM (00:52:19): Thoughts on Malcolm X. RC (00:52:22): I guess Malcolm was [inaudible] he got other people to be in tune [inaudible] he would be secretly [inaudible] and all that stuff [inaudible]. He was a really good leader, he was [inaudible]. He was even more strict than Baptist rules and Catholic rules. SM (00:52:47): Some of the political leaders of that time and we're going to go into the presidents here. Just a few comments on Lyndon Johnson. RC (00:52:54): He was actually the most impacted society [inaudible] president. [inaudible] was passed under him. All the civil rights laws were passed under him. Medicare and Medicaid, he created that. That is [inaudible]. The housing act, I think he did that. I think he passed six or seven major legislation. Impact on us is [inaudible]. SM (00:53:30): Then John Kennedy. RC (00:53:33): He did not do that much did he. There is a lot of myth about it was Lyndon Johnson that did the stuff. [inaudible]. So, the most of the things they say about him are not even his work. [inaudible]. SM (00:53:51): Richard Nixon. RC (00:53:53): He would [inaudible]. He was part of I guess the old two government [inaudible]. That government was the be all and the end all [inaudible]. But he did open [inaudible]. Any thoughts, I guess he helped to end the Vietnam war. It has always been a weird [inaudible]. SM (00:54:19): Your thoughts on that combination of Nixon and Kissinger because the fact that in 1968 when he came in and promised Vietnamization, that he was going to end the war but he would not say how he was going to end the war. We just went over the 30,000 point of deaths in Vietnam, which means when he became president over 28,000 more Americans died in Vietnam. It took him four to five years to pull out and your thoughts on, we know how many Vietnam veterans feel about McNamara, but how do you feel about Kissinger who succeeded him in the Nixon administration, and Nixon and how long it took them to get out. RC (00:55:04): I guess they were always of the mind to get out, but they wanted to get out with some kind of [inaudible]. Did not want to just pack up and pull out. There was nothing wrong with it, once you made a commitment you have allies working with you and there was a lot of people in Vietnam who work with us and if we just packed up and left they would be dead meat [inaudible]. But they stalled on that one too long. At least [inaudible] put Jim on the trail to [inaudible]. SM (00:55:44): Is there a bitterness toward Kissinger like there is towards, not in... Is there some bitterness toward Kissinger though? RC (00:56:00): [inaudible 00:55:53]. Yes Anne? Anne (00:56:00): [inaudible]. RC (00:56:03): Okay. [inaudible] that is too slow and knew what they were doing. [inaudible]. SM (00:56:04): How about Gerry Ford? RC (00:56:10): Gerry, [inaudible] Gerry. I know Gerry Ford. He was actually a good president. He surrounded himself with smart people. And I guess that idiot McNamara was [inaudible] SM (00:56:27): I do not think so. RC (00:56:27): [inaudible] SM (00:56:38): A couple more names and we will be done. Can you [inaudible] on this [inaudible]. Some of the other names, George Wallace. RC (00:56:46): George, I knew George personally. He sign my diploma from Auburn, I have spoken to him several times. He was Governor[inaudible]. I knew him personally [inaudible] segregationist. Going back to the south of the (19)30s and the (19)20s, deeper Alabama [inaudible]. SM (00:57:11): How about Hubert Humphrey? RC (00:57:18): [inaudible] I do not think he did much as far as I can tell. SM (00:57:18): Do you think we would have been out of the war sooner if he became present? RC (00:57:26): Maybe, but I do not think anybody who got in could get out that easily or quickly [inaudible] because there is some major problems in and of itself. [inaudible] give you the war [inaudible]. SM (00:57:41): How about Bobby Kennedy? RC (00:57:42): That idiot got us into it in the first place, [inaudible] over to Vietnam. They're just sending the [inaudible] advisors [inaudible]. SM (00:58:01): How about Eugene McCarthy? RC (00:58:03): Eugene was all right. I guess [inaudible]. Some of the things he says were true about Vietnam [inaudible]. Was it really worth the life of one American? The Vietnamese did not care. Most of the Vietnamese were locked in a time warp, they lived in the 16th century. They might have had a radio in the village hall. They were just agricultural people growing rice and selling it and carrying on the-the generation. And not much had changed since [inaudible] 1500s. You have electricity in most of the places [inaudible]. They're houses did not have floors, they were dirt floors [inaudible]. SM (00:58:47): George McGovern. RC (00:58:47): [inaudible] I guess he spoke out the most on [inaudible]. He was shown to be correct in some of the things he said. I remember Eugene McCarthy [inaudible]. SM (00:59:13): Yes. Governor in (19)72, the democratic nominee. RC (00:59:19): [inaudible]. Was McCarthy a third party? SM (00:59:21): No, he was a Democrat and [inaudible] Bobby, there is a bitterness between the two of them, because Bobby said he went [inaudible]. RC (00:59:30): Interesting. SM (00:59:33): (19)68 was quite a year. RC (00:59:38): [inaudible] was Humphrey [inaudible]. SM (00:59:38): Humphrey Muskie. RC (00:59:43): Is Muskie still alive? SM (00:59:43): He died. RC (00:59:43): Really? SM (00:59:45): Died a year ago. He had severe Parkinson's disease and he had a bad heart. RC (00:59:55): Now he was old enough to be in history books, during the (19)60s. SM (00:59:56): I will recommend a book for you to read, it just came out by Joles Woodcover, he is from the Baltimore sun. It is a call 1968 a year in memory. I am just finishing, it is 500 pages, you will not be able to put it down. It basically goes over that entire year. So, as you are reading it you reflect about where you were in (19)68. Spiro Agnew. RC (01:00:32): I guess he was kind of a nice family guy, a young local celeb [inaudible] have much impact on. SM (01:00:32): But he created a lot of the lack of civility and dialogue with his assignment to go out on college campuses and really blast people. If you read (19)68 the book by [inaudible] even Richard Nixon was a little concerned about how far to the extreme he went sometimes. And he did not put a lid on it, but he embarrassed the president many times. RC (01:00:55): I guess [inaudible] civil dialogue and name calling. Because that was his specialty was to look up in the dictionary [inaudible]. But that was one of his [inaudible]. SM (01:01:06): Neil [inaudible] wrote a speech for him. RC (01:01:13): That is another nut. SM (01:01:16): Phil [inaudible]. RC (01:01:16): Phil [inaudible] somethings of some [inaudible] except when he called somebody one time. SM (01:01:24): Barry Goldwater. RC (01:01:27): I always liked Barry Goldwater, he was [inaudible]. I think he introduced me [inaudible] to the extent that world war two [inaudible] combat [inaudible] until he defends civil liberty [inaudible]. That man was something else. He had good ideas. And he was sort of carrying on the old style [inaudible]. SM (01:01:55): There has been several books written on him in the last couple of years. They were waiting for his book. Everybody else was writing about him but when is his book coming out. Muhammad Ali. RC (01:02:09): He was another draft dodger. I remember him saying he is not going, I think his [inaudible] suspended him. SM (01:02:18): Yeah, four years at least. RC (01:02:18): [inaudible]. SM (01:02:18): I read his book and he was a [inaudible] objector and he was based on his faith. RC (01:02:23): [inaudible] Muslims to me [inaudible] peaceful. SM (01:02:28): I saw him speak at the Ohio theater after I got out of grad school, when he was suspended. And he took the $3,500 in cash that was given to them and he handed it back and said, use it for a children's center. He did not take any money. He did not need it. So, it was amazing when I saw that. RC (01:02:49): Historically speaking that religion was a pretty [inaudible] religion. SM (01:02:56): Thoughts on the women leaders of that time, Gloria Steinem Betty Friedan, Abella [inaudible] the first Congresswoman [inaudible 01:03:05] power. And then Shirley Chisholm came in that. some of the women political leaders who turned things around for the women's movement. RC (01:03:12): I thought they were all generally great. A lot of the things they did, 40 percent [inaudible 01:03:19] somewhere along the line it would have been 2 percent. [inaudible] a lot of legitimate things to say [inaudible]. SM (01:03:30): Some of the people from Watergate are John Dean and John Mitchell. Some of the people that were the operatives in the White House during that time, who were the staff of Richard Nixon, those people. RC (01:03:43): I guess John Mitchell was the old style, the president was always right [inaudible] whatever we do. John Dean was sort of like I guess he was [inaudible]. How old was he when he ratted out the president? SM (01:04:00): 33 I believe. That is very young. RC (01:04:01): [inaudible] SM (01:04:05): And I guess he [inaudible]. RC (01:04:08): At least [inaudible] Mr. President [inaudible]. SM (01:04:11): How about Daniel Ellsberg? RC (01:04:19): I never was quite sure what is that thing was all about. I know he had some papers [inaudible] showed that Vietnam was one of those [inaudible]. SM (01:04:26): [inaudible]. RC (01:04:30): Yeah, hopefully [inaudible]. SM (01:04:33): What about Ralph Nader who is still living with the activism of today in a different area. RC (01:04:39): He is okay. He is sometimes pushing the envelope. So, for somebody sticking up small causes, causes that that nobody else is sticking up for. SM (01:04:51): I want to say this, someone on authority told me this, that you cannot find anything negative against the guy because he lives in a small apartment in Washington. He washes his own clothes. Never got married. I do not think he even owns a car. It is amazing that you cannot get anything in the guy because I think several political leaders try to, including Richard Nixon. They could not find anything. There was nothing negative. He practiced what he preached. He makes good money, but he just lives a very simple life. His causes are his life. RC (01:05:21): Ever heard about [inaudible] he would not be as vehement if he worked in [inaudible]. SM (01:05:29): Oh no, common cause was John Gardner. He started that, [inaudible] out of state. I am pretty sure.... Dwight Eisenhower. RC (01:05:40): He was a good man. He was a war hero [inaudible] but I guess to some extent it is true. SM (01:05:48): And the music of the year, the music that symbolize the (19)60s, when you had Janice Chaplain, Jimmy Hendrix, The Doors, The Beatles, all that music. Because that played a very important part in the war protest. Just that whole era of the music of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, which are really [inaudible]. RC (01:06:08): I like the music of the (19)60s [inaudible]. SM (01:06:11): [inaudible] Jim Morrison. RC (01:06:14): That there was excess of those people. And they were part of it, pushing [inaudible] electronic. SM (01:06:36): Mayor Daley from Chicago. RC (01:06:39): He made that city work. He was the old guard [inaudible] Nixon. [inaudible] like his father. SM (01:06:59): And once now in the Clinton administration too. That ends the basic questions. My final question is, are there any thoughts that, passing words of wisdom you might say with respect to this business about the healing again? Because again, this project is geared toward each individual's own historical perspective and also the metaphor part of their life. If you were to put in a capsule what that era has meant to you, just your own personal feelings of your young years. What it was like to be a teenager in the (19)60s, to grow up in the (19)50s, in the (19)60s and then the (19)70s to serve your country and come back. If you were share some final thoughts on your growing up years. RC (01:07:47): I do not know, I guess I started off in the (19)50s when it was more laid back. In school it was high school. I was on the team. I was captain of the basketball team. [inaudible] cheerleader and all that stuff [inaudible] it is going to make me step up to the plate. And things never changed, [inaudible] a career, whatever. What made me kind of step up to the plate [inaudible] things were changing. I was probably a little radicalized [inaudible] in the (19)60s. [inaudible] free speech. The importance of having students on the prestige of the university. [inaudible] I was considered a radical. SM (01:08:42): Were you a Democrat then? RC (01:08:44): Probably republican at that time. Being with the military, I can tell you when I was in college I was supporting Johnson, [inaudible] Johnson. At that time [inaudible] If you were working for [inaudible] because with Johnson [inaudible]. SM (01:09:02): Think a lot of Vietnam veterans, because of that experience became Republicans as opposed to Democrats, because they looked at McNamara and Johnson. And of course, history will show Kennedy, you got to see him and realize he may have gotten this out but do you think a lot of veterans, did you experienced a lot of people that changed? RC (01:09:20): And they made them republicans and we did not call them that in the military service. [inaudible] from us all the military. SM (01:09:31): Final question is getting back to the wall in Washington. And then 1992, this is the 15th anniversary coming up. We are expecting a big turnout in Washington. It is amazing a time place. But again, your thoughts on the impact that the wall has had on America. RC (01:09:51): I think it is important [inaudible] see the names on it. It feels like having that statute they put up to [inaudible]. SM (01:09:59): [inaudible] RC (01:09:59): [inaudible] SM (01:10:02): Over there. RC (01:10:06): Yeah, they [inaudible]. I think it is like they were in combat and they came in on the last patrol and they had 58,000 [inaudible]. Yeah, I think the wall is a [inaudible] of America. However, there was never a film of the war, you never see it. [inaudible]. I think it has made people appreciate the service individual. They [inaudible] anything else to do. But at least they see that those individuals are not [inaudible]. SM (01:10:46): Do you think that, follow up for that, this last question [inaudible] coming from me, that the greatest amount of healing from the Vietnam veteran, and because now we see the first ambassador back in Vietnam who was a former POW Mr. Peterson. And there seems to be a lot of forgiving between the people who fought the war. Almost a kind of respect because of a warrior, you had your duty and we had our duty. So, there is more healing between Vietnam veterans and Vietnam and America than there is between Vietnam veterans and those who protested against the war, some divisions here. Do you think that is a good analogy and can we ever, as Jan has been trying to do with the wall, bring people together to have the ultimate healing, which is finally saying, I am sorry, I was young then, I want to be able to be a friend of a Vietnam veteran. I want you to understand where I was coming from, because I think there is a lot of guilt amongst many people when they go to that wall, where boomers who take their kids, and I did not serve. That even though they may not have tried to get out of the war, there is got to be... Everybody that I have ever talked to that goes to the wall, whether they served or did not serve, has this feeling. There's feelings, it touches people. It brings back the memories. I am just trying to find out about your thoughts on the final healing process. RC (01:12:06): Yeah, it is [inaudible] significantly. It was one of the major events that began the healing process. With other towns like us, we did five years after, we built our memorial, sort of right down to a local level. It was all started by that one unknown soldier leaving Vietnam and it sort of spread out [inaudible]. You see Vietnam mentioned all over the world. SM (01:12:34): Is Clinton's visit to the wall important for the healing? RC (01:12:36): [inaudible]. SM (01:12:40): Because President Bush did not even go to the wall, but at least Bill Clinton did. I do not think Ronald- RC (01:12:44): [inaudible] Bush [inaudible]. SM (01:12:45): He was asked, he just did not want to go. And I know that for a fact. He was asked, and he said no. RC (01:12:51): Similar to the [inaudible] too much. SM (01:12:52): Bill Clinton was asked and he was going to refuse but still went. So, I do not know if that was like the second visit to the wall, how important that was toward the healing and then the generation. RC (01:13:09): [inaudible] sort of hide what they did. Not hide it but [inaudible]. SM (01:13:14): Any final thoughts? RC (01:13:15): You have to live with your past [inaudible]. SM (01:13:18): Any final thoughts at all, anything you want to add? RC (01:13:21): No. I guess [inaudible]. SM (01:13:29): I hope that is not the case. Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ron Castille Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Castille, Ronald D. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Marines; Pennsylvania. Supreme Court; Judges; Castille, Ronald D.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Ronald D. Castille served on the US Supreme Court in Pennsylvania from 1994 to 2014 and was promoted to the Chief Justice in 2008, staying until 2014. Castille retired from office at the age of 70. He received his Bachelor of Science in Economics from Auburn University. He joined the U.S Marine Corps and received several awards along his journey. Castille received his J.D. from the University of Virginia School of Law after his medical retirement from the Marine Corps. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-07-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.37a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.37b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 73:36 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c5c5d85fc29546f0a5eb73a9397c6397.jpg 7b085534e9f8abfc5024ca188067b8a1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fdbc01f71b432d6ff00a8d6aee9b37d0.mp3 102c02c4630d66c16bff519640feb21f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-01-15 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Charlotte Bunch, 1944- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Charlotte Bunch is an author, educator, scholar and organizer in women's rights and human rights movements. She is currently a professor in the Department of Women's and Gender Studies at Rutgers University. She has written many pieces which have focused on women's and human rights in the world. Bunch has a Bachelor's degree in History and Political Science from Duke University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6531,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Charlotte Bunch is an author, educator, scholar and organizer in women's rights and human rights movements. She is currently a professor in the Department of Women's and Gender Studies at Rutgers University. She has written many pieces which have focused on women's and human rights in the world. Bunch has a Bachelor's degree in History and Political Science from Duke University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;John F Kennedy; Bobby Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; \nWomen's Movement; Social Activism; Baby Boomers Generation; \nThe 1960s; Student Christian Movement; Kent State; Sexual liberation \n&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:4609,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">John F Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Women's Rights Movement; Social Activism; Baby boom generation; Student Christian Movement; Kent State; Sexual liberation; Activism<br /></span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 117:12 Subject LCSH Authors; College teachers; Women's rights; Human rights; Bunch, Charlotte, 1944--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Charlotte Bunch Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 15 January 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:07:53): I check this every so often. So, I think it will take there. I am a proud graduate of The Ohio State University. CB (00:07:59): Right. SM (00:08:05): When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? CB (00:08:11): Oh, I think when I think of the (19)60s, what comes to my mind first is the Civil Rights movement, the Black Civil Rights movement. For me, the (19)70s is the women's movement. So those are the shaping, biggest parts for me of that era. SM (00:08:32): When you were young in say elementary school where you lived with your parents, I believe you lived in New Mexico? CB (00:08:37): Yes, right. SM (00:08:38): Grew up there. What kind of environment was it and families you lived around, and students you went to school within those early years? Was there anything during those early years that sparked you and said there is something wrong? Or when did you start thinking about activism and the issues that we involved in civil rights and the women's movements and so forth? CB (00:09:03): Well, I grew up in a family that was not terribly political but were community activists. My parents were very involved, and my mother was the first woman president of the local school board in a small town. My parents were very active in civic affairs. So, I grew up in an ethos that you had some responsibility for the life of your community. So, in that sense, I grew up with a kind of activism of my own parents, but it was not so much political activism. It was more sort of social concern activism. So, I always thought about doing things like that. Somebody gave me a book called Girl's Stories of Great Women. I read about Elanor Roosevelt and Jane Addams, and Susan B. Anthony, so I always thought it would be really interesting to do things, missionaries. I thought I might be a missionary. Missionaries came to my local church and showed pictures of poor people and what they did to help them. So, the notion of living a life of service in that sense was very much the ethos of my childhood. The town I was in was a small, relatively backward, conservative town, so it was more my family, really, than the town. SM (00:10:33): Was there one specific event, whether it be a local event, a state event, a national event or a happening that really, the first time that... You had these small things. You got the commitment to serve, but was there something that really? CB (00:10:49): Well, I think what really transformed that into social activism was not in New Mexico but was when I went to college. In 1962 I went to Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. And the thing I remember most distinctly is I attended these dialogues that the Methodist student movement had with students from the Negro college, and it was called the North Carolina Negro College. We met African American students, and I saw in the paper one day that one of the guys that I had met was being arrested for his civil rights activism, and they were dragging him off to jail. So, I think of that as t moment when all of a sudden, I realized that I knew him. He was a nice guy. We had had a good conversation. And it sorts of sparked that there was something important and something wrong that this nice student who I knew, who was an African American, was being drug off to jail. So, I got interested in the civil rights movement, and I think that is really the one incident I remember the most. The first action I think I was involved in was, actually, some of us did a sit-in at the local Methodist Church, because it was still a segregated church. And we did what we called a pray-in. A group of us from the Methodist student movement went to the local Methodist church in Durham and sat on the steps outside and did a pray-in to protest the segregation in the church. So that was really my entry to thinking about social activism. SM (00:12:42): When you did that for the first time, because it takes a lot of courage. See, there is always the fear of what might happen if I am arrested, or is this going to be on my record, or will I be expelled? And then some, if I do not go along with my friends, then they will think that I am a chicken or whatever it might be. What were your feelings when you went to that first sit in or protest? CB (00:13:08): I think my feelings were, actually, I was so excited. I was nervous. I was nervous about what could happen, but I was so excited about doing something about something that I cared about. And I think I had been there about a year, so probably beginning of my sophomore year or the end of my freshman year in college. And I went with some of my friends; we decided together. Sara Evans was actually my best friend, and we did a lot of these things together. And it was at that point in time, Duke was a very conservative campus, and we were in the Methodist student movement. And the Methodist student movement was a place where people who thought differently were gathering, and we were studying racism and talking about these issues, and it just felt like the right thing to do. I did not worry about my friends. And I guess I felt safe. Initially, doing it at a church, I did not think they would arrest us. Our first action was a pray-in, and gradually, I went to other demonstrations, but I did not want to be arrested. I was not unafraid of being arrested. I was not brave. I was not one of those who jumped out in front of the cops and wanted to be arrested. I was not looking to get arrested, but it felt like the right thing to do. SM (00:14:57): Dr. King always used to say that " If you are afraid to be arrested or pay a price for your actions, then you really may not deeply care about the issue, because when you see justice or injustice..." Or even though it is a law, and it is an unjust law, you have a responsibility to change it or show in a peaceful way, change, you do not like it, through action. One of the things about the boomer generation is they are oftentimes attacked by conservatives like George Will. I tried to get Newt Gingrich to interview. He is always too busy. I understand that. He is a historian, too. Through the years, I have read some of the commentaries of both of these gentlemen, and they are kind of symbolic of many others who love to generalize about that era of the (19)60s, (19)70s and basically the boomer generation and the reasons we have a lot of problems in our society today, albeit not really the terrorism aspect. That is most recent, but the reason why we have all these issues today is because of that period, and they kind of look upon it as a negative. And I am talking about lack of respect for authority, the high divorce rate, no sense of responsibility toward a partner, drug culture, the sexual revolution and all the other things. It goes on and on, lack of respect. And, of course, at that time, a lot of complaints were against the military, too, and that particular thing, or anybody in positions of responsibility or authority. When you hear or you read, or anybody writing about that time period and they make those kinds of comments, what is your reaction? CB (00:16:49): My first reaction is to be totally annoyed with them, because I think that the people that were, certainly the people that I became a social activist within North Carolina in the civil rights movement from (19)62 to (19)66 were people who were deeply committed. Both the white and the Black people were taking a lot of risks. I mean, it was not easy in the south to be speaking up against these things. It was not popular. I hear these guys like Gingrich and others say it was a fad. Well, it was not a fad. It was a deeply felt conviction. And I think that it was challenging authority, but it was challenging patriarchal, racist authority. And I would still challenge patriarchal, racist authority. It was not challenging authority for its own sake; it was challenging oppression in the name of order. And it was challenging a certain kind of authority, which was an authority that was arbitrary, that was discriminatory and oppressive. I was an organizer; I believed in order. I was not an anarchist. I did a lot to structure the organizations I worked with. But we did not believe in dominant domination of people by one person or one leader. So, I think that they completely missed the point because they want to miss the point of what that movement was about. SM (00:18:36): They are both boomers, too. I think George Will might have been born in (19)40. CB (00:18:40): He is a little bit earlier, I think, yeah. SM (00:18:41): But Newt Gingrich is a boomer. CB (00:18:42): Yeah, he is a boomer, yeah. SM (00:18:43): Yeah, he was born in early the early (19)50s. CB (00:18:46): I mean Newt Gingrich is like a lot of guys on the Duke campus that I knew. I mean, there were a lot of them that really hated us because we were challenging the given authority structure, and they were, especially some of the white men in the south that I remember that he reminds me of, they were expecting to inherit the privileges of their parents, of their fathers in particular. So yeah, some of them, they were angry. They did not want this order to change because they did not understand that there were people who wanted to change that order. It worked well for some of them. SM (00:19:29): I would like to know your experience, because I was just talking to Bettina, too, on that. We all know that anybody whose read history like you have and been a part of it, that women were oftentimes treated as second-class citizens in the civil rights movement, in the sense of they were involved in the Montgomery bus boycott very strongly there. And there are the Dorothy Heights, and the Fannie Lou Hamers of the world. But overall, in the civil rights movement, that is an issue. Also, in the anti-war movement there was this issue, and in some of the people that I have interviewed in some of the other movements, whether it be the Chicano movement or the Native American movement, and even in the gay and lesbian movement, because David Mixner even made a comment about this, that women have oftentimes been put in the secondary roles. I would like your personal feelings about, as a female, being an activist in the boomer time frame here, about what you had to go through. Because we all hear that women were really secondary until the women's movement came about, and then of course, men were the problem. The women's movement became strong in the late (19)60s, the early (19)70s so to speak. Your thoughts on your experiences and whether that is really true. CB (00:20:45): Well, I think it is true, overall. I mean, as a generalization, yes, it is true. But there are multiple layers of that truth. I mean there are many different ways in which that manifested itself. So for example, in my story, I now think because I came into civil rights through the student Christian movement and the churches, and because I came in through the south from North Carolina, my leadership got encouraged by those student Christian movement leaders. And I was the president of the North Carolina Methodist student movement by my second year in college, and I was then the president of the National Student Christian movement and began an ecumenical project and experiment, so my leadership was actually nourished in this period. But it was nourished because there were women in the church who gave me encouragement and space. I think it was also nourished because in the south at that time, there were more white women than white men who were joining the civil rights movement, because women were more sensitive to these issues. I think there was a certain kind of space that I had as a student in the south coming into this through the churches that not everybody got. I mean, obviously, I had natural leadership skills, or I would not have been able to do that. I mean, I know that now. I did not know that then. So, when I began to feel the second-class status was actually not in the early (19)60s in North Carolina, but when I graduated from college, and I went to Washington, D.C., and I became part of the Institute of Policy Studies in Washington, which, I do not know if you know IPS, but IPS was the left wing think tank of that era. That is when I discovered how sexism worked. That is when all of a sudden, I went from being a fairly well-known leader of the student Christian movement based in the south and then nationally, to experiencing the invisibility that many women talk about, where all of a sudden... And I think one reason I became a feminist organizer so quickly is a little different that some other women. It was like, "Hey, I have led a national movement." And I would be sitting at the table of these seminars, and I would say something, and the men would ignore it. And 10 minutes later, a man would say something similar, and they would say, "Hey, what a great idea." and I was like, wait a minute. I mean, I am not used to this. So, there are many different layers of the story. It is not that none of us were ever encouraged; but for me, it was the growing up phase. You go from being a student to the adult left, and that is when I realized how sexist it was. And I actually think it was worse in the north than the south. This is a part that as somebody who's mixed heritage, my mother's from the north, my father from the south. I grew up in New Mexico. I see different aspects of the country, and I actually think some of the sexism was worse among northern white men, who actually felt more entitled in some ways than southern white men who were more understanding that they were oppressors because of the racial issue. SM (00:24:41): Some of things you are saying, Dr. King saw this too, because Dr. King knew. That is why he went north. CB (00:24:47): Right. SM (00:24:49): I know that Bayard Rustin was against him on his anti-war stand, Vietnam. We did a national conference on Bayard, so I respect Bayard. But on that particular thing, I think he was wrong; Dr. King was right. And a lot of the things that he went through when he came north, because he knew there was racism up here in the north. And all we have to do is remember Cicero. CB (00:25:08): Exactly. SM (00:25:10): I was in college, and I saw. I could not believe the way they treated him. CB (00:25:12): Right, exactly. SM (00:25:14): Before we go to the next question, I do not think you knew, but my grandfather was a Methodist minister. CB (00:25:19): Oh, really? SM (00:25:20): Yeah. McKiernan's an Irish-Catholic name, but my grandfather was abandoned along with his brother, by his father. He went off to Wall Street to make a lot of money, and he was raised by his grandparents. He was born in 1895. He died in 1956 when I was a little boy. But he was the minister of the first Methodist church in Peekskill, New York, from 1936 to 1954. CB (00:25:42): Wow. SM (00:25:43): He was well-known in Peekskill. And if I had lived long enough, I would have loved to have asked him about Paul Robeson's visit. You know? CB (00:25:51): Mm-hmm. SM (00:25:51): That terrible thing that happened, and Pete Seeger was with him. Because I interviewed Pete. CB (00:25:55): Oh, interesting. SM (00:25:56): And Pete told me about that, but I have read about it in the history books, too. Because a lot of people do not know Pete Seeger was with him. CB (00:26:01): I did not know that he was with him them. SM (00:26:03): Yeah, and they were going to kill him, too. So, it was just amazing, the links here. CB (00:26:10): So, I think that it is true that there was a sexism, and women were, in general, treated that way. But it does not mean that no women were able to exert leadership, as you said there were. Not only in Fannie Lou Hamers, but there were a lot of women. And I think particularly in the southern movement and among the white women, there were a lot of women who played fairly strong roles in a lot of those activities, but they are not the names of the highlights of history. SM (00:26:41): Yeah, people use that picture of Dr. King, too, with the march on Washington, and you see Dorothy Height over to the right, and you see Mahalia Jackson down below, but you do not see very many women there at all. There are a lot of women out in the audience, but there just are not the many up there. When you look at this boomer generation which is 70-some-million, and I want to let you know that I am trying to make sure this is inclusive, because some people have felt that when you talk boomer, you are talking white male. And I have had a couple people talk about that. So, this process is, I am not going to finish this project until I know that I have inclusion here. I am trying to get more women involved. I am trying to get African American perspectives. Certainly, I am trying to get Native American perspectives. I am going down to Washington to meet Paul Chaat Smith at the Native American Museum. And I am trying to get others to talk about it. I have already talked to a couple leaders of the Chicano movement on the West coast. I am trying to get a field, because boomers are everyone. They are male, female, gay, straight, Black, white, every other color you can imagine. And so that is what I am trying to do here. Because when I think of the boomer generation, I think of 70-some-million with all these different ethnic groups and the way they live their lives, and a lot of people do not, and this has been brought to my attention from some of the people. CB (00:28:02): It is true. SM (00:28:03): A lot of people think boomers are white males, so that is been a very sensitive thing. CB (00:28:08): I think of boomers as both men and women; although I do think that I think the term is more identified with white than with people of color. I do not think of it as only the men, though. I always think of myself as at the outside curve of the boomer generation, and I think of my younger sister as the boomer generation. So, I do not think of it as only the men. Although, I do think it has been used mostly in relation to the predominant white community. SM (00:28:40): When you look at this generation, what do you think some of the strengths are if there are some characteristics that are positive, and some of the characteristics that may be negative from your viewpoint? CB (00:28:50): Well, I think the most positive characteristic of being in the boomer generation was our belief, which I still have, that you do not have to accept things just because that is the way they are. That notion that change is not only possible, but change is a good thing, and you really can and should think about what you believe in and how you want to try to make it happen. I think that is, for me, the positive ethos of the (19)60s was the notion of change and the notion of making your life around what you believe in, and trying to figure out how to do that. At least that is what I identify as the positive. And the belief that equality and justice were important values. And I continue to believe that, although, the way one acts it out may be different in different historical moments. But I think that was the driving energy, and in some ways the... moments, but I think that was the driving energy and in some ways the prosperity of the predominantly, and maybe that is why I think more predominantly of the white part of the boomer generation, but prosperity was coming to African Americans too, starting to, made you able to see that consumption and things was not everything. I think part of our ethos was we were the generation in a way that did have it all. It was a prosperous era that we grew up in. If not when I was born, it certainly was by the time I was in school. And so the notion that all you had to work for was material prosperity, did not motivate me. I appreciated that, but it was not a driving force. I wanted something more. SM (00:30:56): That is beautiful because you see... Money. I could have been a lawyer. I chose higher ed. You do not ever make more than 60 grand in higher ed. CB (00:31:06): Yeah, exactly. SM (00:31:07): The richness with me was the ability to work in a university environment and to be around young people and to hopefully have an influence in their lives in terms of preparing for them for the world that they are going to lead and run and experience. That is what our role is. There is nothing greater than being a teacher or an administrator that works for students. CB (00:31:26): Yeah. There is nothing greater than doing the work that you love, whatever it pays. And I think our generation understood that in some ways, because many of us, and I do not deny the fact that there was still poverty, but many of us, a large number of us, grew up with enough security that we did not feel that that was the only purpose in life. And some of the negatives may come from not understanding well enough what those limitations meant in other people's lives. And I think there have been some arrogances around class and racial issues in the early part of the movement, not understanding enough where people who did not have the security came from. But I think we learned that. SM (00:32:15): I think some of the things that I have heard about, I have read an awful lot. I am reading demographic materials too. And one of the things is that a lot of boomers have become very rich, very rich, including Vietnam vets. There was a period a couple years ago, it might have been maybe 10 years ago, that of the 50 richest Americans, 10 of them were Vietnam vets. CB (00:32:39): Interesting. SM (00:32:40): At the time that... Well, Ross Perot, well, I am not sure if he was a Vietnam vet, but he was in that group too. So, I find this interesting because they are also attacked as being the consumption, the credit card problems, and got spend now... And it is again, generalizing on characteristics and be generalizing, blaming an entire group, which is impossible to do. CB (00:33:10): Yeah. As you know, because you are doing these interviews, there are different strands within the boomers. I was part of the political strand of activism, and we had our own critique of some of the hippies strand. On the one hand we liked it that they were critical of the establishment, but we thought they were too self-centered also. My part of the movement, the political part, we were critical of some of the hippies. We thought they were too self-centered. They were just taking the freedom we were trying to create for themselves and not giving back. So, I think that is also important to remind people that there are many strands within boomerdom, even within what you might call the left of boomerdom. SM (00:33:59): Have not even gone into the people that went into communes because communes... Easier way of life, but they just dropped out. CB (00:34:09): Dropped out, yeah. SM (00:34:11): And they raised family. What do you think about this category? A lot of boomers thought they were the most unique generation in American history when they were young. I can remember feeling this and hearing it, just a sense that we belonged as a group. There is a sense of community here, and a lot of people say what happened to that community as they got older? But what are your thoughts when you hear the boomers say that we were the most unique generation in the history of this United States of America because many of them felt when they were young that they were going to be the cure-all, the panacea, they were going to solve all the issues and create peace, love and harmony and end war and racism, sexism... All these things. Well, obviously those things still exist. CB (00:35:07): Yeah, I think that is where the people who say that the boomer generation is arrogant have some justification. I think that we did a little bit too much think that we could change it all. I think the good part was we believed in change and it was worth working for. And probably the arrogant part was not understanding well enough what it really takes to make that happen. And sometimes just thinking almost too highly of what we could do. And I am a lifelong activist, so I watched the people who dropped out, and I think some of them did not understand that this was about a lifetime. This was not just a moment. But I had a sense of history. I was a history major myself, although I never became a historian. But maybe I had less of that because I grew up in a small town. So, you do not grow up with a sense of being a part of this big ethos. And I am always a little bit skeptical when people think we are the most unique thing that ever happened, so I might put that as somewhat true, but not on the more positive part of who we were. SM (00:36:36): When you look at the (19)60s for the boomers now, we know when it began for you, but when you look at this generation, what do you think most of them would say when the (19)60s began and when it ended? Were there watershed events for both? CB (00:37:00): Watershed events for the boomers? SM (00:37:02): For for the boomers themselves. And along the same line, what do you think... Again, everybody's different. I have asked this. Some people are specific. "So, this is the one..." But I think the event that may have shaken their lives more than any other event. CB (00:37:19): Yeah. I think there are several watershed events, probably subcultures of that for sure. There is certainly a series of... I do not know if it is an event, but there is certainly two or three watershed moments in the early (19)60s around civil rights. The March on Washington is the high point of that. But I would say the killings in Mississippi of the four. And the other killings, those several killings during Mississippi summer, that was a watershed time, the four of them. And then Mrs. Lucio, the Philadelphia woman, and I cannot remember exactly when all of that happened. SM (00:38:03): Leeozo? I forget her name. From Chicago. CB (00:38:09): And for me personally, the Selma Montgomery March I went to. SM (00:38:13): You were there? CB (00:38:14): I went to the Selma Montgomery March. I went from the National Methodist Student Movement, got asked by some of the people working in the United Methodist Church to go down to Montgomery. And we worked with the Montgomery end of the Selma Montgomery March on finding housing for everybody who came to march. So, we lived in the Montgomery community. I took a week off school and I went there. And we were in the Montgomery part of the march. I did not go to Selma, but we were working to help. We had a whole student group, an integrated student group working to help with housing for the march. So, I think that configuration, Mississippi Summer, the Selma Montgomery March, the March on Washington, those were watershed... Maybe different events were watershed for different people. But that was a watershed time in race relations for my generation. That is when we got it that this was important, whichever one it was that turned you, but that configuration of things. SM (00:39:25): Did you meet Dr. King or JL Chestnut? Do you know who JL Chestnut is, the great lawyer from Selma? CB (00:39:31): Well, I was a student. I saw them. [inaudible 00:39:33]. We had Martin Luther King speak at our National Methodist Student Movement Conference. So, we had him there as part of our presence. I was not personally... We have a picture here of one of the other women in our group introducing him at that conference, the Methodist Student Conference. SM (00:39:57): Oh, my God. Wow. I got to get this book. This just come out? CB (00:40:02): No, it came out a couple of years ago. SM (00:40:03): [inaudible]. CB (00:40:06): Well, it is Rutgers University Press. I helped get it published, but they never promoted it well. SM (00:40:14): Well, this is a [inaudible]. CB (00:40:16): But for what you are doing, and especially to bring you some of the women's voices. Because this is specifically- SM (00:40:22): I might like to interview Sarah. CB (00:40:23): ... about the women. You should interview Sarah. SM (00:40:25): Where does she live? CB (00:40:26): Minnesota. I will give you her email or you can get it. But if you look at that, you may choose to interview others too. But Sarah, you should definitely interview Sarah. SM (00:40:38): I think it is important because you are only the third person that I have ever met who has actually met Dr. King or been in a room with him. The first person I ever met was a person who was a student at Michigan State University when he spoke. It was a PhD professor. And he said, this would be about a short time before he was assassinated, and he was in a big auditorium in Michigan State or a gym, some big facility, and he seems very close to him. And I do not know if he is saying this to me just for drama, but he said, "I think something is going to happen to him. He is too good to stay alive." That was an unbelievable statement. "Too good to stay alive." CB (00:41:22): Wow. SM (00:41:22): And he said, "It is almost like when you saw him on the stage, it was like there was just something different about him. He was just a great speaker, but there was this ambience." Could you explain what it was like if you were in the audience, what it felt like to be listening to him? CB (00:41:40): Yeah, he had a very powerful, moving presence. Sometimes you are around people that you just feel you are in the presence of some kind of greatness, I think it was. I was never in a personal situation with him. I was in the audience on a couple of occasions, and it was that sense of inspiration of somebody who really embodied doing what he believed in and made you want to do the same. My memory of it was very inspiring. And it made you feel that it is possible. I do not think I had any premonitions of his death. I would not say that I had that, but I had a sense that this person was moving history, and he inspired me and made me feel like we can make things change, things can be done. And it was a quiet leadership. It was a strong, steady, quiet leadership. It was not a bombastic leadership. SM (00:43:04): You are right on. James Farmer was on our campus, he was totally visually impaired. But I spent two days with him. And so, we shared a lot of things besides the programs. And I asked him what it was like to be in a meeting with him. And he said he did not speak much. He just listened. We had to go... "And Martin, what do you think?" Well, this person you saw at the pulpit in church or on the stage is not the man who was in meetings. He was listening to everything and taking it all in before he made a decision. And David Hawk, who I interviewed yesterday, was in the meeting with him when he was deciding if he was going to give the speech at Riverside Church in 1967, Rabbi Heschel and how important Rabbi Heschel is, very important, in inspiring him to go do it. And that is another man in the Civil Rights Movement's that is got to be talked about more, the Jewish rabbi. And he said the very same thing James Farmer said. He did not say hardly anything in the meeting. He was listening. He was a listener. CB (00:44:03): He was a listener. That is right. And when he spoke, you listened. Because he did not bombast you and speak all the time. You knew when he spoke there was something you wanted to hear. SM (00:44:15): I got a few more general questions, then I am going to get with a lot of women's issues here. This is one I have to read to you because our students put this together when I was at the university in the late (19)90s. We took a group of students down to see Edmund Muskie. I got to know Senator Nelson, and he helped us organize some trips to meet leaders. So, this is for eight to 14 students. Senator Muskie had just gotten out of the hospital and he had been watching the Ken Burns series when he was in there. And you could tell he was not feeling very good, but he still met with us. And we asked him this question. This was actually a question that was written by students because they wanted to know- CB (00:44:51): Is this still...? Oh yeah, it is still right. Sorry. SM (00:44:58): They knew about 1968. So, here is the question. Do you feel that the boomer generation is still having a problem from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart? [inaudible] divisions between black and white, the divisions between male and female, gay and lesbian, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. Then they put in here, what did the wall play in healing the nation beyond the veterans? Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or are we wrong in thinking this? Or has... The number of years has changed here... That made a statement that "time heals all wounds" is truthful? Is there an issue within the boomer generation, is what I am saying? Is there an issue on healing that there seemed to have been... And Muskie responded by saying that he would not respond to it. His response was, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And then he went on for 15 minutes about how the issue of the Civil War killed 400 some thousand men, actually almost wiped out an entire generation. And he said, "For what?" He got real emotional, well emotional for him, and he did not even talk about (19)68. CB (00:46:20): Well, I do think (19)68 is another watershed moment in terms of the (19)60s. I think (19)68 is a watershed moment for a number of things, including actually becomes really a watershed period for women, (19)68, (19)69. But I think it was a watershed moment in terms of the Vietnam War and definitely the growth of that, and the Democratic Convention, of course, as the symbol of that. But I would not put all of those [inaudible]. I would say that the (19)60s boomer generation has not healed from the divisions between those who questioned authority and those who upheld it. And the divisions between those who questioned the Vietnam War in particular and those who did not. I think some of those things have not healed. I think that is true that some of those divisions have not healed. I do not think the (19)60s were a division between black and white or even male and female. I think those issues are very different when you are talking about what are the divisions. Because what the (19)60s did around black and white and around male and female and gay and straight is bring forward the voices of the oppressed. And I think the (19)60s laid the groundwork for the possibility of new relationship across racial lines for, eventually, what I think were beginning to experience of a more equal male female relationship. And ultimately a better relationship between... It is not even relationship, an opening up of our rigidity around sexuality and sexual orientation. So, I actually think that the wounds that may not have healed are the wounds from whether you were for or against authority. And you see that in the Clinton, Bush... Two holes of the (19)60s still playing out. SM (00:48:44): Senator Kerry too. CB (00:48:47): And I think that still has not healed. But I think on the other issues, the (19)60s did not make those wounds. The racial wounds go much earlier. The racial wounds, for me, the (19)60s began to address the racial wounds so that we might someday reach a place where there will be a difference. And on male, female, I also feel it started a process that yes, there is still, certainly the sex wars, culture wars over sexuality indicate that the culture is still divided. But it did not get divided by the (19)60s. The (19)60s opened up new possibility. So, to me, they are different, they are different things with each of those. None of them are resolved. They are still ongoing, but they represent different things. And if anything, on racial issues, I think the (19)60s opened the greatest possibility because before the (19)60s, we did not have anything like... If we were not divided on race, it was because we were accepting an oppressive situation. And actually, we were divided because there are 100 years of people struggling over the racial issues before the (19)60s. SM (00:50:08): Jan Scruggs wrote that book, To Heal a Nation. Of course, he is the founder. He is an interesting person in his own right. Now, he will not be involved in this process because he is... Diane Carlson Evans will, but he will not. Muller will, but he will not. I understand. He is a different person and he has had a lot of issues building the wall. He is a really good man though. So that is the bottom line. But in his book, To Heal a Nation, he thought his goal was that though the wall not only heals the veterans and their families, which is a primary goal and pay respect for those who died and served in that war, but to also start the healing process for the nation. And that is why he titled his book that. Do you think the wall has done anything to heal a nation with respect beyond the boomers? How about the anti-war people who I have always felt... I did not serve in the war. I was in graduate school. I could not go because I broke my arm. I was in a lot of things. But how many parents have actually gone down to that wall since it was built in (19)82, when the kids are saying, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" Reflecting on who they were. CB (00:51:18): I think the wall was an important lesson for all of us. If you think about anti-war activism in this era around Iraq, we were all... And I was not a leader in it, but I certainly participated in it. We were all much more careful about the fact that the soldiers who died were not the ones that should be vilified. That it was the people sending them. I think we learned from Vietnam. I think that the wall was a very important symbol that the division should not be between those who died or who fought and those who did not. But between those who sent people to fight and those who thought it shouldn't be done, and I think the new anti-war movements are much more careful about that. SM (00:52:14): I agree. CB (00:52:15): So, I think we did learn something from that wall. I am not sure it healed the Vietnam War moment, but I think it taught us as a people. It was a part of something we learned. And I would not say the wall did it, but the wall helps. It is part of that. It is part of that process. SM (00:52:33): As a non-veteran, I have been down there since... It gets kind of emotional for me because I have been down there since '93 and I have gone to the Memorial Day and Veterans Day ceremony. I just want to get a feel and taking probably a couple thousand pictures of the speakers and all... [inaudible] came and everything. I might do a book on that sometime as a non-veteran. But I still see that there is of people have healed and he is an awful lot, but a lot of men [inaudible]. And you can see it through the tears, but you also see it by those who refuse to go. I am going back here, but Bill Ehrhart, the great Vietnam poet who I interviewed in Philadelphia, tremendous poet. He says, "I cannot stand the wall." I said, "Well, why?" He says, "Because the fact that it throws my buddies in my face, the names. The names are nothing to me. It is who they were." It was his perception. And he did not like it for that reason. It is not the way he... So, there is divisions even [inaudible]. And I said, "My golly, you would even got divisions over the wall." The other issue was the issue of trust. Because I prefaced this question by when I was a first-year student, I remember was in the philosophy class, and this teacher was talking about trust. The whole lecture was on trust. And I think Socrates was there and Aristotle, you are bringing everything in. But in the very end, the bottom line was that if you cannot trust someone, then you are not going to be a success in life. "And I cannot trust somebody and be a success in life?" I am remember going back and talking to my friends about that. And of course, the boomers were not a very trusting generation because they did not trust any of the leaders that were in positions of responsibility at that time. Most of them. Or the 15 percent of the boomers that were activists. And that is they did not trust the presidents, the presidents of universities, ministers, rabbis, corporate leaders, politicians. If anybody who was in a position of responsibility, I do not like you. That is a lack of trust. And there is a lot of reasons for that. It is seeing leaders lie to the American population, whether it be Johnson about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution or Watergate, one of the enemies lists. And a lot of people did not even trust Gerald Ford, that he had a deal with Nixon. And Eisenhower lied about the U-2 incident. Anybody who was cognizant, I think boomers were a little more well-read than they are today, the college students. So, your thoughts on, is this a generation of people who just cannot trust, and what has this done to their kids and their grandkids in terms of this passes on to them? CB (00:55:28): Well, I think that it is true that part of the legacy of that period is distrusting particularly political authorities. And being unwilling to accept the excuses because we felt we were lied to. I think it is true that today, politics in America have suffered from that because we have a very distrustful and aggressive political culture. Maybe some of that came out of the (19)60s, I am not sure if I want to blame it on that. But in my own experience as a (19)60s activist, I did not distrust everybody in authority, but I did not trust them unless they did something to prove they were trustworthy. I did not distrust every minister or every president of a university. I thought some of them were okay because of the way they dealt with things. But I did not trust them just because they were authority. And I think we did see the breakdown of the notion that you should follow them just because they were in authority. And I do not think that is bad. But I think the bad part is that we have not had a political period since then in which our political culture has given us reason to trust our politicians again. And I think that is really sad. I think what is sad is that they cannot be trusted because we have not learned how to do politics in a way that does not lead to all of this. So, there is some- SM (00:57:24): What is really amazing to me is when I saw, when President Obama was speaking joint session of Congress and that congressman stood up and said, "You lied." He apologized, but he really believes it. And I know conservatives who said they would have said the same thing. "He is a liar." That throw back memories of politicians coming to university campuses and being shouted down, speakers and everything. So, he has not even been given much of a chance. CB (00:57:55): No, I think there is a... The problem is not just that we do not trust. The problem is that we do not have a culture that we feel we can trust them. And that is a problem. And I do not know that I have more to say on it than that. But yeah, I think that is an issue. Yeah. SM (00:58:19): I have some questions here about in the area of the women's movement. I know this is a very broad question, and I know Bettina said that she did not have the time to... We were toward the end of the interview, but when you look at the women's movement, 1970 on... I know a lot of the great things it is done. But if you were to reevaluate it, what are the mistakes that have been made, many of them by the boomers who have taken over the leadership roles, and what are the strengths? And what are the good things they have done? And where do they still have to go? I know about men. Men still have got to get it. I know that. We all know about pay. That whole issue is still in the... I think we are going to get beyond the pay thing. I think the pay thing- CB (00:59:09): We will get beyond the pay thing. Well, since you started it, I will start with men then I will come back to the question. I think the real issue for men is household responsibility. I think the issue that men have to get is the work that women do in the home. I do not live with men. I am a lesbian, so I do not experience it personally, but all of my feminist straight friends, if there is one issue that they are angry still about men, it is the degree which most men have not assumed the responsibilities of sharing the work of their homes. I think on a personal level, that is the issue that at least I hear women complain about the most. Apart from sexuality, which is much more complicated- CB (01:00:02): ...Apart from sexuality, which is another much more complicated issue. So, I do not want to go there, but I mean, in terms of male, female roles in this country. I think that is probably changing more with younger men. I am not sure it will change with older men, but I think it is changing. Certainly, it has changed with some of the younger men, not all of them, but certainly with some of them. In terms of the ... I mean, it is a huge question. I am trying to think what I could say that is useful. I think that- SM (01:00:38): In terms of the leadership now. Dr. Roche Wagner, one of her magic moments in the interview. Do you know her? CB (01:00:47): No, I do not. SM (01:00:47): Dr. Roche Wagner. She is up in Syracuse. She is an activist. She said, "First off, women." I said, "Who are your role models?" And she said, "Well, no, no, no, no. We do not do that in women's movement. We do not take a Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug. I mean, it is all of us." She corrected me on that when I was starting to say these things. When you think of them, do not put a name on it, but the women's leaders and the strategies they have used. Because one of the things that really upset me as a young administrator was when the Equal Rights Amendment did not pass. Because my first boss was one of the leaders of the ERA in Ohio. Dr. Betty Menson, I do not know if you have ever heard of her, she has passed away. And she was in her early fifties, and she was working on her PhD. She was, for almost six months, she was in constant communication, working in the office, spending time beyond. She paid for the bill if it was work there. And then I remember when that did not pass in Ohio, and I can remember hearing her reaction after she had put two years of work. CB (01:02:02): Right. SM (01:02:02): In the Equal Rights Amendment. So, it was what has there been any strategies or mistakes that have been made by the women's movement that could do it all over again? CB (01:02:15): Yeah. I do not know whether you would know what to do to do it all over again. I think that the strength of the women's movement, in terms of what it has achieved, is that it really brought the issues of power and domination and violence and how we live our lives together with the politics of that era. It really brought home that these questions we were asking about injustice, and oppression, and power, and ultimately violence against women were also aspects of people's personal lives. And really brought home that what is, to me still one of the fundamental, unresolved, but important questions of our day. Which is the link between violence in the home, violence against women and children, and violence of war. I still believe that these are connected, and that is what the women's movement has tried, on some level to bring home. That the way in which you dominate and violate and allow that to happen in personal life, whether it is in the family or in racial violence on the street, or homophobic violence. Ultimately is connected to the way in which we accept the violence of war and the violence against the earth and global climate questions. To me, they are all manifestations of a domination mode of being, and that somehow all of these movements in their own way are trying to overcome. But what I think the women's movement contributed is that politics is not everything personal is political. But what happens personally is also, there is also political dimension to it. I am not saying every single act is political, that would be absurd. But that there is a political dimension to daily life, that has to also be part of the change. I think that is what the women's movement has tried to communicate. Sarah's book, personal politics, the personal is political. I mean, there are all these slogans from it. But what it has really been fundamentally about is that those things we call personal are not outside of the realm of political dynamics and dimensions and affecting the world. Now, do we know how to change that? It is huge. I mean, racism is also huge, and we have not accomplished that. These are dynamics with hundreds, if not thousands of years of history behind them. I think we were all naive about how fast these changes could happen. I think the women's movement was naive, but I think we are also part of the Boomer (19)60s naivete. In the sense that we all thought by wanting to do different and better, you could. And on one level, I think we have led lives that were the beginning of very important changes. But we underestimated how deeply ingrained all of these things are, and how much it takes to actually change them. We thought whether it is the Equal Rights Amendment, which seems simple because it is a legal instrument, or violence against women. Which is a much more difficult deep issue in terms of daily life. I think we underestimated how strong the forces were that we were trying to change. SM (01:06:00): What I like about your background is you are linked to the United Nations. When I think of the United Nations, I always think of Eleanor Roosevelt, and I just think she was way ahead of her time and every other way. She was the conscience of FDR, and she put them in this place several times. CB (01:06:15): She definitely did. SM (01:06:17): But what I really like about your background and when I see a real big plus in the women's movement is the global aspect. What started out as a women's movement, whether you go back to Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and I have taken my members of my family over there to Seneca Falls. I remember taking my dad over there before he passed away, and we had a great day over there, and sitting on her porch. One of my favorite pictures is my dad walking up the back stairs in the Elizabeth Cady Stanton's home. I said to myself, "How could she have done all this and this house so far away? And Frederick Douglas came here, and this is the actual room where they sat and all the people that came through there." But not sure what question I was getting at there. CB (01:07:06): Well, you were about the global. SM (01:07:11): It is the global aspect. Because you see, we have to prepare millennial students, and we should have been doing this with generation X-ers too. To prepare students for the world, these are world issues now. And the women's movement was about issues here in the United States, but even in some of the early books, women were thinking about the world. I had one of the first booklets from a convention that was held, and they seemed to be ahead of the game in so many things. This is a world issue. CB (01:07:40): Right. SM (01:07:42): Is this one of the positive things that I am saying here, that what was something for the United States is global, and that the women's movement has played a key role in this? And you in particular could played a key role? CB (01:07:56): No, I think that the women's movement, because I mean, Virginia Wolf said, "As a woman, I have no country." Because women did not even have citizenship and the vote. I think that the identification of the women's movement with women elsewhere enabled us more quickly to see the global connections. Not every woman, but as a group, and to understand that these dynamics and issues we were talking about were happening to women elsewhere too. Yes, you could have a movement about it in the US but you could not say that this is only a US problem. Even to the extent that racism was a global problem, but it had a very particular US history. It was more of a national phenomenon. I think that did kind of make us look outward, and our predecessors did. I mean, Eleanor Roosevelt did, and Virginia Wolf did, and Elizabeth Cady Stanton looked out too beyond this country. So, I think there is that dimension to it. SM (01:09:06): I like your thoughts too. Another thing that I look at the women's movement as being, at least the things that I have read. Johnnetta Cole, former president of Spelman College, wrote a book in the late (19)90s, a really thin book, and she was still president there. She talked about the conflict of being a female because she was a ... It is okay for her to be involved as a female in racial issues, but when she starts crossing over into women's issues. Well, I think some of the men did not like it, and certainly some of the women did not like it. "Your role should be in race because you are black." "Well, am I female first, right? Or am I black?" She brought it up in her book about the conflict, and that was really a revelation to me because she wanted to belong to both. But she was a little hesitant. Had you seen that too, or? CB (01:09:54): Well, I think there was a period, I think it is less so now, but I think there was a period when many women of color were feeling like they were being forced by one movement or the other to choose what was most important. A whole way of thinking has emerged in women's studies that I think is also now more present in the rest of the world about intersectionality as a result of that conflict. I mean, they really got us and many people to think about the fact that these things affect each other. It is not just one or the other. How you are treated as a woman is affected by your race and how you are treated as a black person is affected by the gender and sexual orientation, and all the other things have evolved in class. I think this way of thinking is now much more understood as a result of the geneticals and the people who first talked about that conflict. SM (01:10:54): I know one of the things that is still a big issue in higher education now that I have left it, but I have sensed it for a long time. I hope they are doing a better job, and that is between gay and lesbian students and African American students. Because when we ... Did you get a phone call? CB (01:11:07): No, just going to turn off the light. That is bright. SM (01:11:14): This is your interview. But when we had a conference on Byron Ruston, several black male students did not want to be involved, because he was a gay man, and they did not know about it. They were raised within their church that this is wrong, and their ministers had preached that it was wrong. But the big issue in the university is people of color who may be also gay or lesbian, and in the fear of going into a gay and lesbian office for fear of what their friends say. The pressures for young people and their peers are unbelievable today. And I still think we have a long way to go on that particular issue. CB (01:11:46): Oh, we do. We do. Absolutely. I actually think that the women's movement has made space for gay and lesbian issues to emerge more broadly than they would have otherwise. Because gay and lesbian issues are also challenging gender, and there is a natural connection between women's challenging gender roles and gay and lesbian. They are not the same, but there is an intersection there. But for people of color, I work with lesbians of color all over the world, and it is a constant struggle. I mean, I work with women all over the world and every culture. Muslim lesbians, who are all struggling with how to work out. They are very committed to women's rights, and if they come out as a lesbian, that will make it harder for them to work on women's rights. I mean, I just had lunch with one today who was talking about, "How do I manage this?" I mean, this is a constant struggle because the lack of acceptance of this issue means that the space for all the people of color who are lesbian and gay is very, very narrow. SM (01:13:02): I guess as I get older, and as I have more experience, it is just the whole business of you cannot be who you are. America is supposed to be about being who you are, being comfortable with who you are. We are a part of a community, the greatest thing that we all have is our differences. Some people say our differences. I think our differences are is our strength. CB (01:13:25): It is our strength. SM (01:13:26): And that we need to respect everybody for who they are, and what they are. We got a long way to go on that. I can understand religious beliefs, but not anybody that believes that they are better than someone else. CB (01:13:37): Well, most religious beliefs do not justify any of these things. If you go to the core of the religions. I left being an active, having come out of the student Christian movement. I left being an active Christian when I came out, because I was like, "I have no interest in a God or a religion that thinks I am inferior." SM (01:14:01): Women's leadership in the church is an issue. CB (01:14:04): I do not need that. But I do not think it is inherent to any of the religions. What I know from the period when I was more involved in religious movements is that whether you are talking about Islam or Christianity, any of them. All the cultural trappings about women's roles and sexuality come from the cultures. They do not come from the religious ideas. They come from the cultures at the moment that those ideas were born and developed. They vary from place to place enormously, because they take on the cultures of where they are. Those cultures are cultures, but they are not religions. The religious ideas do not have to be attached to these cultural trappings. The unfortunate thing is people get the cultural trappings mixed up with the core ideas. SM (01:14:58): Who were the people, the books that you read when you were at Duke? Or say 10 years out of Duke, when you were young? What were the books that had the greatest influence on you? What were your peers reading? Were there authors, writers that just had a tremendous influence on you? CB (01:15:17): Oh, sure. I mean, in that period of time. I suppose initially it was the James Baldwins and the Frantz Fanon and people that I was reading about the dynamics of race in the world. Then over time, Simone de Beauvoir, some of the early writings of feminism. Even Betty Friedan's book at that point. I read Betty Friedan's book when I was a college student. SM (01:15:53): Came out in (19)59, I think. Feminine Mystique? CB (01:15:56): Oh, thought it was more (19)61. But anyway, it was that period. I read it when I was a freshman in college, and I said, "Okay, I am not doing that." I mean, it was very helpful. It was like, "Okay, I am not letting that happen to my life." So, these were influential in those kinds of ways as well. I also read a lot of theology when I was a student, because I was involved in sort of radical theology circles and Paul Tillich and all these people. They were helpful as you sort your way through those moral dilemmas of your life. SM (01:16:48): How about the music now? The (19)60s music was unbelievable. Obviously, the folk music, the rock, and certainly the Motown sound. But how important has music been in your life in terms of the artists and what maybe the messages and the music? Has music been a very important part of what you have done and the boomers that you have seen it was important to them? CB (01:17:14): Well, I think it has been an important part of the Boomer experience, yeah. I think probably the music that was most important to my political life was women's music. Was the Holly Nears and the Meg Christians and the Chris Williamsons. The emergence of the women's music culture was very important to the women's movement in the seventies. As we were trying to gain a sense of validation of our identity and our realities, and certainly Holly Near was important. Part of her importance is that she came out of a larger folk music tradition too, and still is a part of a larger folk music tradition. SM (01:17:59): When I first get to see her, was in Slaughterhouse-Five as a 12-year-old. CB (01:18:02): You were lucky. SM (01:18:04): I get to know her, right? But I do not know her to real well. But we brought her to campus and she really supports this project. CB (01:18:12): Yeah, no, she is wonderful. But I think mean, the folk music of the (19)60s that was important to me, initially was just literally the Civil Rights songs. I mean, the singing of the We Shall Overcomes and the We Are Climbing Jacob's Ladder and all those kinds of things. That was important as a mobilizing music. But the music that probably most affected my political work was the Women's music. SM (01:18:40): You ever listen to Peggy Seeger? She is real good. CB (01:18:43): She is great. SM (01:18:43): She is unbelievable too. She was in England for all those years. CB (01:18:47): Yeah. SM (01:18:49): I am going to read some stuff. This is the part where I just mention a name or a term. Just give a few words or thoughts, and you do not have to in any detail. It is called "What does this person mean to you? Or what does this mean to you?" CB (01:19:06): What is the association? Okay. SM (01:19:08): What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? CB (01:19:10): The Vietnam Memorial, the Wall? SM (01:19:16): Yeah, the Wall. CB (01:19:17): Well, we kind of talked about it. So, I guess it means to me a reminder that that war is about the death of people. SM (01:19:24): About? CB (01:19:24): The death of people and real people. In this case, the Americans who died, there should be one with the Vietnamese who died too. SM (01:19:38): Kent State and Jackson State? CB (01:19:39): Oh, Kent State was very important to me. I was in Hanoi. I was on a trip to North Vietnam, with an anti-war trip when Kent State happened. I was on an anti, a mobilization against the war movement trip where I had been invited to go and talk to them about the potential of the women's movement as an anti-war force. SM (01:20:02): Now, who invited you to that? CB (01:20:05): The Mobilization committee to end the war in Vietnam. Again, because I had a history of working in civil rights, and then I went to the Institute for Policy Studies, and I had worked against the Vietnam War from the Student Christian Movement. So, I knew those people. Then when I became a feminist, I was one of the feminists who was still linked to that world of the anti-war movement. SM (01:20:32): Who was on that trip with you? CB (01:20:37): Elizabeth Sutherland Martinez, her name, she is now called Patina Martinez. Chicano woman who talked about the Chicano movement, who was also a feminist. A guy named Frank Joyce from Detroit, who had started People Against Racism, one of the white organizations against racism, and a guy named Jerry Schwinn, who was Return Volunteers. We were all constituencies that the Vietnamese asked to know more about, because none of us were primary anti-war movement. We were all against the war, but we all represented other constituencies. They asked to meet with representatives from those constituencies to talk about the potential for mobilizing those constituencies to be stronger forces against the war in Vietnam. SM (01:21:30): And how did you find out all the way over there that Kent State had happened? Do you remember the moment? CB (01:21:37): I do not know if I remember the moment they told us. SM (01:21:42): Because the bombing was on April 30th, 1970. CB (01:21:45): I was going to say, what was it? It was April 30th. SM (01:21:46): And on May 4th was the shooting. CB (01:21:50): I think we were actually in Laos when the bombing happened, the April 30th bombing. And I think we had just gotten to North Vietnam, and I think they must have told us. SM (01:22:04): One of the people I know that have gone, according to Daniel Berrigan went, Tom Hayden, Jane Fonda, and Herbert went and what is his name? Stan Lin went, and there were a couple others that, but I think David Hawk even went. CB (01:22:18): He probably did. There were actually a lot more trips than people realized. I was there, and then I helped organize a meeting with other women's movement people with the anti-war movement. SM (01:22:32): Yeah, Watergate? CB (01:22:34): Oh, Watergate. Watergate is probably the height of distrust of the presidency. Also, important belief that we could actually do something about it. SM (01:22:47): How about Woodstock in the summer of Love? The two different things, (19)67, the Summer of Love, and (19)69 for Woodstock. CB (01:22:55): Well, I kind of go back to what I said before. I was in the political side. It was like, "Okay, let them have their fun." SM (01:23:06): Already talked about 1968. How about just the hippies and yippies? They are two different groups. CB (01:23:13): Yeah. Well, the yippies were more explicitly political. Yes. Even though- SM (01:23:18): Theatrical. CB (01:23:19): Theatrical, and sometimes we found them. I mean, by the time they were really big, I was also already a feminist. And we found them really very male. I do not know that it was the yippies, but there was one group, I do not want to blame it on the yippies. But there was one moment that is actually a turning point in 1968 for the women's movement. When at one at the counter inaugural for Nixon, would have been (19)69, I guess. There was a big demonstration called the Counter Inaugural, and I was living in Washington at the time. Some of the guys proposed, probably jokingly, but a strategy of raping congress people's wives who voted for the war. It was one of those moments in which we said, "Do you know what you are saying?" I mean, it was like, I mean, just talk about how did Women's Movement consciousness come? Another point at which Marilyn Salzman Webb was speaking at that inaugural about women's liberation, and one of the guys yelled our, "Take her off the stage and fuck her." SM (01:24:36): Oh my God. CB (01:24:36): I mean, these were things that were being said in that period. SM (01:24:41): Wow. CB (01:24:41): I associate some of that kind of mindless sexism with some of that kind of behavior of some of those guys who thought a little too much of themselves and not of the rest of us. SM (01:24:59): I know General Raskin, was in that group, but he was not, he is a little different though. SDS, Students for Democratic Society and the Weathermen. CB (01:25:13): Well, SDS was a great organization before the Weatherman. I worked a lot with several of the presidents of SDS as a part of my liaison with the Student Christian movement. I think they were really an important organizing force. And the Weathermen were our crazies, our political crazies. They, I think, represented forgetting what Martin Luther King had tried to teach us about the fact that what you do matters, even as you are trying to make change. And I think it was a very sad ending for SDS. I understand how they got there, but I think it represented going to violence in exactly the opposite of what King had tried to teach us about. SM (01:26:12): I recommend a book that is out right now. Mark wrote the book. I do not know if you have read it. CB (01:26:16): I have got it. I have not read it yet. SM (01:26:17): You ought to read it. You talked about the sexism and that. Oh my God. And you see, this is before the Weatherman. I mean, some of the things that SDS did in terms of women is just. CB (01:26:29): Oh, there is some terrible stuff. SM (01:26:29): Nothing to be proud of. CB (01:26:29): There is some terrible stuff. SM (01:26:32): I think probably those women who easily succumbed in those days would be very embarrassed if they did that as they have gotten older. How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the Young Americans for Freedom? CB (01:26:48): I thought the Vietnam Veterans Against the War was a really important group. I thought it was a breakthrough. Young Americans for Freedom, I just remember as the enemy. SM (01:27:00): They were conservative. They served against the war though. CB (01:27:06): I had forgotten that they were against the war. I guess they came later. SM (01:27:09): I had to read Lee Edwards, and he said, "This is the one forgotten story." CB (01:27:13): That is an interesting point. When I was dealing with them was before they were against the war, and I forgot that they... That is interesting. SM (01:27:19): Do you know Tom [inaudible] he wrote ... Tom is a politician from Texas, and he has got a book coming out in a couple weeks? But he wrote a book on his years as a Vietnam vet, and he was the head of the Young Americans for Freedom. CB (01:27:32): Oh, I did not realize that. SM (01:27:34): He says, "I am not sure if I am that proud that I was against the war." I have got a couple more, see how we are time-wise here. I know this tape, I got 10 minutes on the tape. CB (01:27:43): Let me just get a little bit. SM (01:27:44): Take a break then 10 minutes on the next one here and then we are done. What do you think of Jane Fonda? CB (01:27:52): I like Jane Fonda, she has her wackiness. But I think she was brave when it was important to be brave and that she cares and she is a celebrity. Sometimes celebrities go a little wacky. But I think she was a brave woman who cared and tried to do what she could. SM (01:28:15): I want to interview her, but she said no a couple of times. Then I kind of lost touch with her, now. I think she was Ted Turner at the time. I was trying to get ahold of her. But she does not talk a whole lot about it anymore. CB (01:28:27): No, I think she got burned. I think she got burned by how badly they vilified her. SM (01:28:32): Yeah, some Vietnam vets say that she has not really answered. Anyways. Tom Hayden? CB (01:28:39): Oh, I have more mixed feelings about Tom Hayden. I think he is brilliant. I think he did a lot of great stuff. I think he was a sexist pig, I had a really hard time with him. I thought his attitudes toward women were very bad, but I also think that he was an important thinker about these issues. SM (01:28:58): How about Timothy Leary? CB (01:29:00): Drugs Leary? SM (01:29:02): Good old Leary. Part of his ashes are up in space right now. CB (01:29:08): I was never very big in the drug culture. So yeah, it was kind of like, "Okay. Yeah, it is not a big part." SM (01:29:15): I never understood it how a PhD, and a distinguished one, would go in that direction. I never quite understood it. Some of the others would be the Black Panthers. Just your thoughts on them as a group? But also, on individually, the Huey Newtons, the Bobby Seals, the Elders Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Stokley Carmichael, H. Rap Brown. They are all unique personalities within the group. CB (01:29:45): I did not know any of them on a personal basis. So, my observation of them was as a political force that I admired in many ways and also felt worried about because I thought there... worried about, because I thought their stance on Black pride was really important. But I was not totally comfortable with the embracing of guns and violence, because I have always... I am not a pacifist, but I am a very strong distaste for accepting the military and the violent solutions, whether it was Weatherman or the Black Panther. And I guess I am a non-violent advocate without being quite a hundred percent pacifist, I think. So, I had problems with that part. But, we all have our struggles with the issues of separatism. And they were sort of symblomatic, really, of the kind of Black separatist mood. But I also think they did some really important things. SM (01:31:00): Dr. King and Malcolm X? CB (01:31:02): Well, King, we have already talked about. I had enormous respect for him. I also think Malcolm X was brilliant and really pointed to things that we would not see otherwise. SM (01:31:20): But Muhammad Ali? CB (01:31:24): Yeah. Also, all of them really, when you think about what they stood up for and what Muhammad Ali went through to be against the war. Remarkable. SM (01:31:36): Got stripped of his title. CB (01:31:38): Yeah. Remarkable bravery. SM (01:31:41): [inaudible] viewpoint. Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. CB (01:31:53): Well, opposite forms of the same problem. The brilliant one who was horrendous, and the stupid one who was horrendous. SM (01:32:03): I can never remember that quote he always gave about the... You know the quote he always said about anti-war activism. CB (01:32:12): Yeah. No, I mean, Nixon's cynicism in having Agnew as his vice president has only been matched by John McCain's cynicism in having Sarah Palin. SM (01:32:29): John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. CB (01:32:30): I was a big admirer of Bobby Kennedy. And I felt like he understood what it meant to try to bring change. And had he not been assassinated, I do not know what could have been different. I was a little bit less sure about Jack Kennedy. It is interesting what you said about Eleanor Roosevelt. When he was first elected, I was not yet a political activist. And it was just interesting. And I was still in high school. And as he was there, I got more and more into it because I got more and more engaged with it. (01:33:18): And certainly, as a moment of symbol of the change, I kind of had the feeling that had he lived, we would be more critical of who he was. That in a way, he got to do the best of what he could do and then he died before the worst parts would have come out. But who knows? But I was never a big kind of JFK, rah, rah, rah. I actually was much more moved by Bobby, but that may just have been the age I was at when they were both out there. SM (01:33:54): How about Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara? CB (01:33:58): Oh, God. Well, Lyndon Johnson is a tragic figure to me. I grew up in New Mexico. I knew about Lyndon Johnson from Texas. And I think that he did a lot for civil rights and believed in it and made some risks for it. But he made such blunders in the Vietnam War and his own pride, it was kind of like a Greek tragedy in some ways, that the better part of him got overtaken by his role in the other part. And what was the other one you said? Oh, McNamara. SM (01:34:36): McNamara. CB (01:34:37): Well, it is just this whole phenomenon of bright guys who let themselves get into this. I feel- SM (01:34:45): Bundy is the same. CB (01:34:48): I fear we are about to watch it again with Afghanistan, so I am not... SM (01:34:53): How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern? CB (01:34:56): Well, I did not work on their campaigns, but I think we all loved that they stood up. And that to me represented that there were some people who would stand up in the Congress and run for president and voice our views. SM (01:35:16): Hubert Humphrey and Barry Goldwater. CB (01:35:20): Oh, I think Hubert Humphrey is another tragic one like Johnson. Who somehow, and maybe because of him being with Johnson at the same period, started out really caring about things and let himself get drug into the establishment and losing his vision. And probably that is people like Hubert Humphrey in particular, even more so than Johnson, probably influenced my feeling that I never want to be a politician. Because I felt like, I want to make change from the outside. Because I see people who I think once did stand for something good. Early in my life I saw people, what became of them when they became politicians. And I thought, I do not want that. SM (01:36:14): Hubert Humphrey's unbelievable, because in (19)48, he wrote a book on civil rights and racism, which was a classic book. He was way ahead of his time on that as a white man and a white politician. Yet he knew that if he went against Johnson in (19)68, that Johnson may decide to even run again. I think the power that Johnson had over his psyche, and that if he had gone against Johnson, he probably would have won the election. He was coming close to winning it even at the end. They said another week, and he probably would have won the election. But this, not disassociating himself from the president. It killed him. He was not gung ho for the war. CB (01:36:48): No, but he did not... SM (01:36:52): And Goldwater and Buckley, the conservatives. CB (01:36:56): Well, I liked, when I was a high school student, I read Conscience of a Conservative. And I got really turned on because it was the first time I ever read good political theory. But then I realized soon after that I was on the other side of the theory that I wanted. But I always had a soft spot for the fact that I found that book really stimulating. And there were some moments when he was really good, but of course, he chose the wrong side of history overall. And that is where we leave it, with the notion of bombing Vietnam and all of that. Buckley, I guess by the time I started to read Buckley, I was more cynical about conservatives no matter what. But they are bright guys. They said things that sometimes made sense. You had to listen. SM (01:37:54): Goldwater conservatives that I have spoken to really put him up on a pedestal. And the irony is that he was the man, along with Hughes Scott from Pennsylvania, that had to walk into the White House and tell Nixon, out of here. CB (01:38:09): Oh, really? SM (01:38:10): Yeah, it was Goldwater and Hugh Scott, Mr. Pennsylvania. And when they went to the White House and had the closed-door meeting with Nixon, it was over. That was the final thing. CB (01:38:23): I had forgotten that. SM (01:38:25): Daniel and Phillip Berrigan, the Catholic priests, and Daniel Ellsberg. CB (01:38:31): Yeah. Well, these were important figures. They weren't people that I personally did any work with, but I certainly admired the Berrigan brothers' stand, and certainly Ellsberg's. These were all important people in terms of exposing what was going on. But they weren't major in my own personal development. But I certainly think of them as important markers. SM (01:39:00): Of course, Ellsberg and then Benjamin Spock, those are my last two. CB (01:39:06): Oh, Benjamin Spock. SM (01:39:09): The baby doctor. CB (01:39:10): Yeah, the baby doctor. Yeah. I do not know. That is a funny one. Yeah. SM (01:39:22): Something about, he died the same day my mom died. Actually, the day before my mom died. And I actually went to see my mom. I did not know if my mom was going to die. And said, "Benjamin Spock died. Just died." And let her know about him. Of course, he wrote the baby books, and a lot of people complained that he was the guy they were raising. But he was involved in protests, and a lot of people admired him for going out there and doing that. CB (01:39:45): Well, I do admire that part. Yeah. SM (01:39:47): You notice, I said a lot of these are men. I already talked Gloria Steinem, and Bella Abzug, and Betty Friedan. But are there any females that I did not mention that I should have mentioned here when I talk about personalities? CB (01:39:59): Angela Davis. SM (01:39:59): Yeah. Well, Angela Davis. Right. CB (01:40:03): Angela Davis was very important to all of us as a woman who stood up, and being a Black woman, and being visible in that moment. Absolutely. She was a marker for many women about women who were strong women, and in the the anti-racism struggle. There were other women that were important to me, but I am trying to think if there were women besides Angela Davis that I would put at that visible place. SM (01:40:50): Eleanor Roosevelt was alive when Boomers were alive. She died in (19)62. CB (01:40:56): Eleanor Roosevelt was certainly a symbol for women. So was Margaret Mead. In fact, I was on a committee with Margaret Mead for the World Council of Churches, and she was a very important figure in women seeing both that you could be different, and what she said about gender roles in other parts of the world. And Simone de Beauvoir, of course, not American, but certainly was somebody that... Kate Millett. SM (01:41:31): And Susan Sontag. CB (01:41:32): Susan Sontag. SM (01:41:33): Her first book is unbelievable. CB (01:41:35): Susan Sontag. And Kate Millett. Kate Millett's Sexual Politics. In terms of getting out some of those issues around sexual politics and sexuality, and rape, and violence, Kate Millett was a very important moment, her book. SM (01:41:56): When the best books are written on the Boomer generation, what do you think they will say? When I say this, some of them are being written now, but normally, the best books are 50 years after a period. We are talking the (19)60s now, we are talking, well, it is almost 50 years now, 40 years. So, 10 years from now, the best books. But I am really talking about as they pass on, what do you think the historians and sociologists will say? CB (01:42:22): About the generation as a whole? SM (01:42:24): About the generation as a whole. CB (01:42:25): Not just the part that was social activist, but the generation as a whole? SM (01:42:29): Yeah, everything. Because the question is, did the boomers shape the times or did the times shape the boomers? And some people think it was all about the events that shaped them and not so much. It is amazing how... CB (01:42:44): Yeah. Well, in terms of that, I always think it is a mixture. You do not make history unless the times are right for it to be made. But it has to happen by somebody doing it. And so, I think that we did make history as boomers. It was a change-shaping time in this country. But I think that the conditions, we talked a little bit about that earlier in terms of the prosperity and all the rest, were also present for that to happen. So to me, it is always both. When I think about my own work, I could not have made the breakthroughs I made in my work if the time was not right, things had not been happening. When we worked on women's rights as human rights we knew the fact that the Cold War had ended and the old human rights association with sort of Cold War was gone, that we could make a breakthrough. It is not that nobody else had thought about trying to do that. And the time has to be right, but somebody has to make it happen. SM (01:43:58): Are you pleased overall with boomer women and the way they have lived their lives? Because their parents, their moms, raised kids at home. And the father was off to work in the fifties and the forties. Are you pleased with the accomplishments that boomer women have made in the battle that they waged? CB (01:44:20): I think overall, yes. I think boomer women have really fought an important fight, by which I do not mean it has been all negative. I think we have also lived really interesting lives as a consequence of being the first generation to really get to try to live our lives differently as a generation. There are individual women who lived their lives differently, Margaret Mead or Eleanor Roosevelt. But to be a generation that felt permission to try to live differently has been exciting. It has been really a challenge. Sometimes hard, but it has been exciting. And, overall, I think we have had a lot of important things happen as a result of that. But has it all succeeded? No. The fact that we did not get or figure out how to get enough childcare for women so that women still feel torn between being at home and raising their kids and family and career. These issues and tensions are not solved. But I think we did what we could to say it can be different and to start that process. It will take several more generations probably to figure out how all of that works out. And hopefully, we will resist the backlashes. SM (01:45:50): Dr. King used to always say, and is his lesson to all of us, and his birthday is today, is not it? The 15th? And of course, we are celebrating on Monday. His lesson is, if you are ever going to get anything done, agitate. Agitate, agitate. I think Frederick Douglass said that too. CB (01:46:06): Yeah, I think so. SM (01:46:06): Agitate, agitate. I think that kind of thing, that is important. I am done with questions. Is there any question that I did not ask that you thought I should have asked? When I was coming to this interview? Is there something that I... CB (01:46:19): I think the only thing that I would add that I think you did not get into is that- SM (01:46:24): Got other questions here, but we do not have time. CB (01:46:26): Well, you said something about sexual liberation. And actually, I think that there is an interesting conjunction of the first phase of sexual liberation was in the (19)60s for many women. Initially, we thought it was positive, but it was actually very negative because many women felt that it became a period in which men just thought they could have access to women's bodies. And I think that actually some of that experience played very much into the women's movement and the degree to which the women's movement really was able to put forward why issues like reproductive rights, and birth control, and violence against women were so important. And so, I have not yet seen, I have not read a lot of the (19)60s books, but I actually think there is talk about the sexism of men in the (19)60s movements and the second-class status that you mentioned. But actually there is also a thread of both liberation, because women felt positive about sexual liberation, and we felt negative about it both. Because there was some degree to which we also wanted greater freedom around sexuality. But it also exposed the male hierarchy in sexuality and brought on the recognition of some of those issues. And I think over time, even the freedom around gay and lesbian liberation that came with that, I think there is something very interesting that could be looked at in terms of that. Because when people talk about sexual liberation, they do not very often talk about the difference in what men's experience of that and women's experience was. And for women, it was very complicated, the whole (19)60s sexual liberation. SM (01:48:40): Yeah. I am not sure if I mentioned this. I might have mentioned to Bettina that if I were to sit down to my mom, who loved raising me and my brother and my sister, and my dad was a really good dad, but he was always away at work. And he was there on the weekend, and the gardening and all the other stuff. But I think Sally Roesch Wagner, when I spoke to her, she said, "You never had that conversation with your mom. You do not know if she was a hundred percent fulfilled. You do not know, because what did your mom do?" Well, my mom, she went to Cazenovia College and she was an unbelievable stenographer. And she was so good at it that, before my dad married her in 1942, she ended up, when she was in college, also being the second secretary of the president of the school because she was so good at what she did. But then she gave it all up to raise the kids. She would not say she gave it up, but I never ever asked her a hundred percent. I never thought of it. And she said, "Well, that is why when you talk about the fifties, which the fifties to a white male and to a white female is totally different." And we are talking about the World War II generation. We are not talking about boomers now. CB (01:49:55): Right. SM (01:49:56): And that was a revelation, because I never had that asked. I never asked my mom that question, ever. And I wish she was alive today to be able to ask it. And it would not be offensive to my dad because my dad was open. CB (01:50:09): Right. Yeah. SM (01:50:13): But anyway, thank you very much. That was great. I am going to take a couple more pictures. CB (01:50:17): Oh, right. Okay. SM (01:50:19): And then I got to walk a couple blocks and, boy, driving out of this city will be a lot of fun. CB (01:50:23): Yeah. Unfortunately, your Friday afternoon, well, people might leave early on Friday. It might be... SM (01:50:30): This is the other book that I just bought that I think is going to be a good one. I do not know if you have seen this one, but Tom. CB (01:50:36): No, I have not seen this. SM (01:50:37): That came out six months ago. This came out this week. CB (01:50:42): Great. SM (01:50:44): So, this is more of a political one. CB (01:50:47): Good. SM (01:50:51): Yeah, I am going to definitely remember that book. CB (01:50:59): Yeah, you should order that book. Hopefully they still have it, I think Rutgers University Press. SM (01:50:59): Take this picture. I am going to actually take four pictures. CB (01:51:01): I assume I should turn on the lights. SM (01:51:03): Yeah. Do not have my record flash with me. CB (01:51:06): How do you want me? Do you want me at the computer? SM (01:51:11): Yeah, one at the computer. And then one close up. I do not know if you want to look... CB (01:51:11): You tell me. SM (01:51:12): Yeah, I will have you look. A close up here. Make it look different. [inaudible]. CB (01:51:21): [inaudible] I am in a nice little hut. SM (01:51:42): How about with all your books? CB (01:51:43): In this light, it is probably more... SM (01:51:43): [inaudible] And I got a problem, because where I live I do not order promo. CB (01:51:43): Yeah, well I do. I put things that I want to keep, but I know I am never going to use, at the end of the day. SM (01:51:43): And one close up, and that will be it. That is it. CB (01:51:43): Okay. Great. [inaudible] The interview is over. SM (01:52:39): I will email you, and as far as me trying to get ahold of Sarah or any other female leaders, or boomers, or whatever, or you think it would be good for the interview for us as I have been doing this, I am going to be talking to Sam Brown now. Because you know Sam? CB (01:53:01): I know who he is. Yeah. SM (01:53:03): Yeah. Well, because David thinks I ought to talk to him because I did not realize they were so close to Senator McCarthy. CB (01:53:11): Oh, right. SM (01:53:12): They went to the, I went to the funeral too, but I was not as close as they were. CB (01:53:18): Heather Booth, do you know Heather Booth's name? SM (01:53:18): No. CB (01:53:27): The wife of Paul Booth, who was one of the SDS presidents at one point. SM (01:53:31): Is he still alive or? CB (01:53:32): I do not know about him. But Heather Booth was his wife and she was very active in Women with Liberation. And she went on to found something called the Midwest Academy. She is in Chicago. I think she is still there. She was very much a part of the (19)60s generation, early women's. Sarah Evan. SM (01:54:02): I know the one person I have not been able to get ahold of is the one that was on city councils in Sacramento. Goldberg. Her name was Rudy Goldberg, or... CB (01:54:13): I think it was Rudy Goldberg, yeah. SM (01:54:14): I do not know how to get ahold of her. I cannot get ahold of Holly. She is on the road all the time, so. I think Patina knows her real well. But she was a student working for her. CB (01:54:27): Oh, I mean, it would be great to go to Angela Davis, and Patina also- SM (01:54:31): Yeah, I tried. She gets so many requests that she never even looks at her email. So, she has got a person that works for her, but whether she passes it on, but maybe I will share. And there is another book that came out at time. In fact, I just ordered it and I am picking it up. I paid for it. It is dealing with a permissive (19)60s. It is called, it is something to do with a permissive (19)60s. So, I will email you about that too, because I just... CB (01:54:58): And I may think of other women too and I can send you an email. [Inaudible]. SM (01:54:58): You know Ruth Rosen? CB (01:54:58): Yeah. SM (01:54:58): Trying to get a hold of her, but they say not around for a while. CB (01:54:58): That she is what for a while? SM (01:54:58): She is not there. CB (01:54:58): Yeah, she would be good too. Okay. Well, good luck on your drive back. SM (01:54:58): Yeah, I have got to drive by the university. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Charlotte Bunch Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bunch, Charlotte, 1944- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; College teachers; Women's rights; Human rights; Bunch, Charlotte, 1944--Interviews Description An account of the resource Charlotte Bunch is an author, educator, scholar and organizer in women's rights and human rights movements. She is currently a professor in the Department of Women's and Gender Studies at Rutgers University. She has written many pieces which have focused on women's and human rights in the world. Bunch has a Bachelor's degree in History and Political Science from Duke University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-01-15 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.36a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.36b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 117:12 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1253bd9a4899545841efd5b0aecf643e.jpg d95cfea19488fda41725b712e0e96211 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d6122397365ba1599a944e1214ea348.mp3 e7080e4ba5e91da83fa8987cb544fa66 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-10-15 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alexander W. Astin Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Alexander Astin is Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Higher Education and Organizational Change, at the University of California, Los Angeles and the founding director for the Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA. Dr. Austin has authored 23 books and has been a recipient of awards for his outstanding research. In addition, he was apart of the National Academy of Education.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:8403713,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:4995385},&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11,&quot;26&quot;:400}">Dr. Alexander Astin is Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Higher Education and Organizational Change, at the University of California, Los Angeles and the founding director for the Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA. Dr. Austin has authored 23 books and has been a recipient of awards for his outstanding research. In addition, he was a part of the National Academy of Education.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Psychology; Gettysburg College; Television; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Women's Movement; Environmental Movement; Chicano Movement; Jimmy Carter; Activist; Millenials; Political correctness&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:2,&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Psychology; Gettysburg College; Television; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Women's Movement; Environmental Movement; Chicano Movement; Jimmy Carter; Activist; Millenials; Political correctness</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 96:20 Subject LCSH College teachers; Authors; Astin, Alexander W.--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Alexander Astin Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 15 October 2010 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 SM: A question that I have been asking everyone that I have been interviewing in the process. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself, your early influences? How did you become who you are? Maybe the people that inspired you as a high school or college student, and how you chose kind of higher education, [inaudible] particular emphasis on studying students and working with them as a career. 0:33 AA: Well, a lot of it was fortuitous I have to say, I guess that I guess not-not a typical answer. I was originally very interested in music and majored in Music in college. But my, my parents represented what I liked to call the-the snows, two cultures family. My father was a physicist, and my mother was into the art, writing and theater and that kind of thing. And so, I was influenced, pretty equally by both of them. I initially wanted to go into music as a, as a career, but I got very interested in Psychology, as well during college and so quite I guess, serendipitously, I decided to go to grad school in my college route. Music, I had minor- 1:45 SM: You are fading away. 1:49 AA: Hang on a sec, let me, let me put my speakerphone on here. And this phone may run out of juice on the speaker, but I have got another phone I can- 2:02 SM: Okay. 2:03 AA: I run out of juice. But anyway, so I, when I graduated college, I decided not to pursue Music as a career and instead went to graduate school in Psychology. Very scientific Psychology, of experimentation and measurement, that kind of thing. Not-not necessarily, Clinical Psychology. Although my first job when I got out of graduate school is I had to do two years in the service. So, I was commissioned as a Clinical Psychologist, US public health service, relief Medical Corps for the Coast Guard. And other than wearing a uniform though, was a relatively painless two years, I did work as a Clinical Psychologist in a federal penitentiary. But I, while I was there, I was doing a lot of research, I was always applying for [inaudible] so pretty much stuck with that the rest of my professional career. 0:3:38 SM: Were there any people that really inspire, were there teachers- were there? Someone out there in the world that, wow, that person really impressed me and inspires me. 03:54 AA: Well, I think certainly in high school, there were, there was a music teacher that was very much a mentor for me, and I was inclined for having a good time partying, not taking school very seriously. And it was- I thought to at least to stay reasonably clean and take me under her wing, and I did have a lot of musical talent. She tried to cultivate that. But so, she was very important influence and really, in college, nobody in particular. Our choir director was very supportive, but it was not until I got into graduate school, and I did a-an internship at a Veterans Hospital that I met I say one of my first major mentor in psychology, that was a psychologist named John Holland, who was [inaudible] but sort of developed a reputation in the field of interest measurement, career development- 5:29 SM: You went to Gettysburg College, which is not far from where I live. 05:34 AA: Where do you live? 5:34 SM: I live in West Chester, Pennsylvania, just outside Philly. I go to Gettysburg four times a year to the battlefield right I know that college really well, in fact, when I worked at West Chester, we took a group of students over there, we had a leadership on the road, we met the president. He has since retired, but very nice college was very good students and what was it like going to college there? Obviously, you went in the (19)50s. 6:02 AA: At the time I went, it was still very firmly connected to the Lutheran Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church. And I was not a religious child. Although I was very interested in religion, study to attend as many different types of religious services. But I was not a member of particular faith. I went there because of their choir, they have a world class, choir, and I was arranging choral. 6:24 SM: What were or are your views of the students who were in college in the late (19)60s and (19)70s? Yeah, in the following areas, and I will just list these and then you can just comment overall. 6:57 AA: Is it just the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? 6:59 SM: Uh, yeah, I would say from (19)65 till about the late (19)70s. Because when you talk about the boomer generation, they were those born between 1946 and 1964. But by the time they were going to college, it was around 1965 that they started college. So, I am really looking at, you know, that frontline boomers that were in college say from (19)65 to (19)75. And then you had the late-stage Boomers who were (19)75 to (19)83. But I would like your views on the students, the Boomers in these areas, just your thoughts. And I will list them. They, what, where were they with respect to their willingness to challenge faculty and interacting in class, their knowledge of history, keeping up with the news, caring about the social issues, as opposed to having fun events would seem to be very much what the (19)50s were all about with Panty raids, and all that other stuff, awareness of their world, and sensitivity toward people of different colors. How do they differ from the students that were, that preceded them? The students in the (19)50s and late (19)40s, and then the students that came after in 1983? Just your observations? 08:22 AA: Yeah, well, I guess I was a member of the preceding generation, the boomers came after I finished college. But I think the thing to remember about the boomers, and I have given this some thought, since we originally thought since we originally talked s, and I and I, it is impossible to overestimate the effects of elements. And what you see in the boomers, in many respects, the things that the ways in which they differed from previous generations. Many of these things, I think, are the result of television. And the boomers span the period from no exposure, basically, to full immersion in television, if you base it on stuff like the number of homes that had television sets ore the number of homes that have colored television sets, or whatever you want to measure it. They, if you lag it back to when these Boomers were at the most sensitive age in terms of being influenced by that kind of media, say around the age of five or six, then the early Boomers had very little exposure to television, and the late Boomers were fully exposed. And the effects of that, I think, show up clearly, in the data that we collected on the new college freshmen beginning in the in 1966. With the freshmen entering college, that year and they, they would have been born in (19)48, (19)47, (19)48. And the ones who kind of brought up the tail end, which would have been the late (19)70s freshmen entering late (19)70s, the most dramatic changes imaginable occurred in between early and late bloomers in just about every respect. You are really, if you take-take that span of years, you are talking about dramatic changes in the character, values, aspirations, etc., of 18-year-olds. And so, you know, to rump the Boomers into one category, it really kind of masks a lot of that does know these changes were in we have documented them in a number of publications, and so forth. But I do not think we will ever see anything like that, again, that massive change in the really in the population, country and the Boomers were just simply reflecting that because they were the ones, I think who were most influenced by television. 12:28 SM: Yeah, you know the Boomers in my interviews, it has come up over and over again, that people have problems with lumping people in the generation because within a generation, there is so much difference. And for example, those born after the war (19)46 to say (19)56. And the experiences of those born say from (19)57 to (19)64 is totally different. Because those later Boomers were not involved in the antiwar movement. They were they heard about it, they were the young brothers and sisters of the front runners. And so, the experiences are somewhat different. And which is I have had this theory, and I have been asking a lot of my interviewees this question, that what is amazing about the Boomer generation is that you, you have what I consider three criteria that really symbolize what they stood for as elementary school kids, that period between (19)46 and (19)60, when President Kennedy came in, and I liked your thoughts on this, I looked at them and then then you also ask yourself, Well, how did they become so you know, how have they changed so differently in the (19)60s, and the three areas are, number one, the quality of being very quiet. Number two, the quality of fear. And the third one being very naive, which is the case with most young people when they are growing up in elementary school, but the fear centers, you know, the threat of nuclear annihilation, the McCarthy hearings, the fear of speaking up, if you speak up and you were labeled a communist or it was really frowned upon the organization man was what was okay in the (19)50s. And naive because when you saw that television, over and over and over again, you did not see people of color very often, you did not see a whole lot of women, except in roles where they played moms raising kids and stuff. You see him as independent people on the road making decisions. So, there is a lot of things happening here. And then obviously, when we get into the, you do not see a whole lot about the civil rights movement, and then all of a sudden you get to the (19)60s, and things just really change your thoughts on those thoughts about those three qualities in the Boomer generation when they were very young. 15:13 AA: So, I, just to add another comment here about television again with is I think, I think what happened with television was that young people began to become more passive in their, in their recreation. And I think that remained this way ever since. And but most importantly was the message that television was purveying, which was a message of materialism. And not only in the commercial but also in the, in the program, a lot of a lot of the TV series, dialog exposed the world to material wealth, and so forth. And what we saw beginning in the late (19)60s and going on through the talking about 18-year-olds. And continuing through the early (19)80s, there was a dramatic increase in materialism. So, in a sense, the commercial message of television was having was having its intended effect, we were breeding a new generation of people who believe that material wealth was the ultimate goal in life. And whatever form it might take, in the academic, having lots of thoughts, acquiring lots of possession and so forth, so on was, was a very high value. And we were also at the same time, however, running, breeding a generation, a new population, really, of citizens, who were not very reflective. They have done studies on what happens to five- and six-year-olds who watch a lot of television. And the certain circuits in the brain are actually bypassed compared to radios, where-where in listening to the radio, you are these areas of the brain are activated, because we use a lot of you participate in radio with a lot of visual imagery and imagination, and that kind of and, and they are one of the social critics [inaudible] has written several books about this. And his view is that young people are brain damaged today, that their brains are not fully developed, so that we have all the ADD and all this kind of stuff. So, the evidence for the advent of this change in our young people is shown in the Boomers from the early to the late. All of these changes, as each new-new generation a new class, as you will of Boomers, has been more exposed to television as watch more of it. So on to the point where it became saturated, and at which point, all young people were being exposed. And what is interesting is the materialistic values that peaked out in the (19)80 have plateaued in a sense, which you would expect because the degree of exposure has remained high. So that basically the-the Boomers are the guinea pigs for this social experiment of television. They document the effects of this medium on-on our values and attitudes, this sort of thing. Now that there are some confounding factors here and you mentioned some of them, one of them is civil rights movements. So, the early Boomers, I think we were very socially conscious, very, very much more aware of some of these issues than I think the late Boomers were to tell you the truth. And they, they had experienced the Jim Crow bout, and the racist tendencies of the north and the West. And they had to confront that even-even the late Boomers really did not have much exposure to the Jim Crow world. The early ones did, and I think that is why they got so exercised about racial issues. And why civil rights movement really had a lot of white input in the early days, because a lot of thinking, young people suddenly became aware of the growth in equity that they had been exposed to growing up, and that they had taken for granted growing up. And so that began to crack. The early Boomers and so there was a lot of energy, a lot of idealism, a lot of engagement. And I think the antiwar movement was really just the perpetuation of that. The antiwar movement came a little later. But buried in all of this civil rights movement, the antiwar movement was American sexism. You know the- In the antiwar movement, the men provided all the leadership and the women provided sex, or painted signs, or whatever, but they were not really invited into positions of leadership and sharing of power in the, in the civil rights movement, and in the student protests. And so, the woman's movement became a- I think, a-a-an- that, and that really emerged in the late (19)60s that became a competing force for student activism. In fact, a lot of the energy out of the antiwar movement, a lot of it, and on and, and but the Boomers span, all three movements, kind of a tail end of the Civil Rights Movement, which really began in early (19)60s. And is to the kind of culmination of a woman's movement in the city, and in the (19)80s. Now, what, what you’ve got there, are that women were so profoundly influenced by the woman’s movement. And this shows up in the late Boomers. So profoundly influenced that the net result of this was that women and men today, because of this, much more alike than they were at the beginning of the early Boomer day. Basically, feminism effectively come become more right because the women have become much more like the men. Men have changed some, but nowhere near as much as the women. And we have all this is all documented. It is amazing when you compare men and women entering college 18-year-old in the late (19)60s, with their counterparts in years later. It is just a profound change. Even a change in politics. The men used to be to the left of the women, and they have traded places. women now a way to the left of the men. And that is true nationally, not just with college students and women's movements was I think, an impetus for that political change. 25:24 SM: Where would you play saw these other movements that also evolved around in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. We all know that the gay lesbian bisexual movement was strengthened because of Stonewall in 1969. Then you had the Native American Movement, the American Indian Movement, which was in the took over Alcatraz, and of course, it ended sadly, in 1973. At Wounded Knee, you have Earth Day in 1970, really setting in motion the well, the environmental movement as a whole of course, I interviewed Gaylord Nelson many years back and he said they respected the antiwar movement so much that they met with them before they made the decision to have this protest with respect to the importance of understanding the importance of teaching, and then of course, you have also got the Chicano movement, then you have the Young Lords that follow the [inaudible] the Black Panthers, and you have you have all these groups of black power, all these things are happening in the late (19)60s going into the (19)70s. Is that all part of what was going on with the women's movement? 26:36 AA: So, I, the women's movement was very much of sisterhood. [inaudible] And what is interesting now is that this is a short memory we have in this country, the feminists today or the or the, you know, leading women, thinkers and theorists so forth have really forgotten. They I mean, they and women in general today take for granted the-the status of women today, as if it has always been this way. There is no question in my mind that, that is, by far, the biggest social change in our country was brought by the woman’s movement. I think there is no question about it. And every aspect of life was affected by that family life, community life, the life of the individual woman, the life of the individual man, because now suddenly, men have women as, as peers as work [inaudible]. And in the fields that you see. Nearly exclusively men of engineering, law, medicine, and so forth. You know, we have not really had a men's movement yet. That amounted to much of anything, and we may never have one. But the women have certainly been emancipated slavery [inaudible]. 28:23 SM: Don’t you think some of the African American students today and people overall forget what it was like to be African American is? Back, I mean it is the same thing. It is like it has always been this way, kind of- 28:36 AA: Absolutely. 28:37 SM: And I know it has even been brought up in the gay and lesbian community with the people I have interviewed that, oh, it has always been this way. I mean, all the battles, but an extreme prejudice. 28:52 AA: I-I- My African American Graduate students, when I tell them my experience growing up in Jim Crow, Washington, DC, they cannot believe it. They think I am making it up. 29:04 SM: Wow. What, what are some of the distinctive characteristic characteristics you have seen in this group of 74 million? I will preface this, first, do you like the term the Boomer generation, do you like it? 29:19 AA: Not really, it is a rubric to refer to a particular group of people that came of age in a particular time, but I think it is. It does a lot of violence to reality. [chuckles] And as the sort of main reason is that the early Boomers were so wildly different from the late later one. And, you know, the pundits like to stereotype you know, were the Boomers, you know, the protesters of the (19)60s and (19)70s? And that is really, really not a very good description. 30:17 SM: Right, What? When you look at the generation, what do you think? Are their strengths and weaknesses? And, and what do they contribute to our society as a group that was not here before or after or during, before World War Two and the end of the war. 30:36 AA: Well, I think the certainly the idea that it is possible to have a bad war. And it is patriotic to protest about it. I think that was a tremendous contribution. Now, that value judgment I just made is not shared by everybody in the country, obviously. But you know, given the stakes involved in warfare, at all levels of it, human, the social and economic, the international, etc. The high stakes of any kind of a war would seem to me to be justify, in a democracy, some discussion and debate and dissent about the act of waiting for one thing, to have a defensive war, but to that have an offensive war where you initiate the hostility. It seems to me worthy of some discussion and debate and the Second World War [inaudible] against that, and there probably would have been a lot more of protesting about the Korean War than there was if it had not come so closely on the heels of World War Two. 32:25 SM: very good point. 32:26 AA: So, the Vietnam War. War are longer now that I think the young people did really pave the way in the draft factor I wax and wane on how important the draft was. The Senate failed with the whole reason I do not I do not really do not agree with that. In any case, that that was a, I think, a major contribution. Another one was language, the use of language, the, you know, the 30 words movement at Berkeley was one of the earliest ample this certainly seems to me, began the loosening up of our language, the freeing up of our language, and I think the use of the free or use of language has been a major contribution, that ability to be authentic and honest with each other. 33:54 SM: Good point. 33:55 AA: I think I think that, if you will forget that. You know, I remember my first trip to Europe as a young man, I had to smuggle a couple of Henry Milller books. And my wife smuggled Ulysses. That change in language is another major cont- I think providing the environment in which the woman's movement could take off was very important. In other words, with the atmosphere of questioning and protesting and with the atmosphere of equity and fairness came out of the civil rights movement and in the student protest movement. People forget that the biggest protest movements, by any measure is not civil rights was not the woman was not the antiwar movement. It was the student’s movement for students’ rights. 35:14 SM: Yes. 35:15 AA: That drew more participants, and there were more protests about student’s rights. So that was, again, an issue of fairness, of empowerment, that sort of thing. So that all of that activity provided an environment in which the woman's movements could really take off. And where it was that women felt comfortable, uh- 35:45 SM: Yeah, you know too, it is, to me, the people that I have talked to, and when I-I am in that front group, because (19)47 is when I was born. And I graduated from college in 1970. And I can remember as a young person, this feeling on college campuses, that we are the most unique generation in American history. And there was a feeling and just a feeling that the Boomers were going to make a statement call themselves Boomers either, but the generation and the (19)60 generation was going to make a big difference in the world by ending all the wars, racism, sexism, homophobia, saving the environment, making the world a better place to live. And now, I am always reflecting just like you are, when you when you reflect on the women's movement, did they? Did they make this world a better place to live? Second, was this just the liberal wing of a generation, the new left, as they always talk about and so-called liberals, and was the rise of the conservative neo cons and the new right. They also were there in the (19)60s and became really powerful in the late (19)70s. And they, they became involved due to the reaction to the movement, the civil rights movement, the antiwar, the environmental, the Native Americans, the women's, the gay and lesbian, they have been kind of reacting to it ever since the late (19)70s. So, I am saying a lot here, but [inaudible] what-what has been the overall impact? Or do they? Did they make a difference in the world by ending any of that stuff that I mentioned? 37:32 AA: Oh, they I think they made a tremendous difference. It is tremendous. I do not even think you can question the difference, because- you know, the thing is, is that the-the protests accomplish their objectives. That was really remarkable and-and they, and they have remained in force, ever since. Women were basically allowed to be like men; have the same power and privileges and opportunities as men, then African Americans, almost all the jury of discrimination was removed. In fact, that, to me, that took the gas out of the civil rights movement, because also, affirmative action became an established policy, in the workplace, in the academia, and everywhere, affirmative action was taken for granted. You know, it has been questioned and challenged the last 20 years, but basically, the same in business industry, they took it for granted. And they still do, but it is in their self-interest is to have representation from different racial groups. And so, it seems to me that that, you know, one of the profound changes, changes from the rights of women and the opportunities for women, the changes in our language, the changes in our in our racial relations and in racial- Now, you know, a lot of the cynics say oh well, you know, the situation for African Americans or some African Americans for large numbers, that is true, but that is in spite of the civil rights movement not because but the snake in the woodpile, if you will, is the materialism. I really, I really believe that is the hidden legacy of corporate takeover of our mind. And that is what television is. And we have become a more materialistic society, and we still are. But that is not something you blame the Boomers for something that happened to while the Boomers were growing up. And, and it shows up in their in their values. As a change from the early Boomers as I said. that materialism is still with us. It is what got Reagan elected. It is now going into the realm in political discourse, money, money, money. We have a political establishment, and a citizenry that’s willing to borrow and spend instead of taxing and spending. Because the, the, the appeal of no taxes or low taxes, is the selfish appeal. An appeal to our selfish. The Kennedys, the 1961 inauguration speech would not fly today. But he made that speech in a very different value climate then today's value climate and the Reagan era, for me was just simply a consequence of this change in value. Not-not, not a cause of it. It- of course, reinforced it, but-but you can see these value changes year by year by year leading up to 1980. And it was pretty clear that something was going to happen politically. 42:17 SM: So, when people say that when they talk about the Boomer generation, and they talk about the new left and-and all the groups involved in the movements that the conservative students and the conservatives were kind of never talked about, even though they were probably some say maybe even larger number than those that were main movement protests and so forth. I have had this in some of my interviews that the conservatives have been excluded when you talk about the Boomer generation and-and then of course, there is there was a national, I think Student Association, there was William Buckley's group that met and then of course, the rise your you mentioned the rise of Ronald Reagan, but it kind of started with Barry Goldwater in (19)64. And those ideas really came to fruition, the late (19)70s. That and that is why we see today, the neo cons and the conservatives and their attacks on the (19)60s. And that generation as a breakup of our society, were the conservative students of that era, which some say were more were larger in number than the new left and the liberal students and students of color. 43:34 AA: No-no, now we have now we have done surveys of that, that is a myth that is- the peak time for the left politically, in terms of political identification was in the early (19)70s. When you had the left outnumbering the right, by better than three to one, we would have never seen anything like that since. As far as defining concomitantly with the materialist because let’s face it, the left does not make a very good appeal to your individual read, right? That is not something that the left is very good at. And-and the right, of course, is all about that. And so that, that helps to account for the fact that now the left barely outnumbers the right. And it has been that way for twenty years. That the left-right balances, are pretty much even lean, tilts slightly left. And it always has, but it is- of course if you break it down by gender, the women are still significantly and then the men significantly right today, and that has been that way for- 45:23 SM: In your view what? You have made reference to several of them already materialism. But in your view, what were the main issues of Boomer generation before they reach the age of 30? And-and I asked the same question, again, what has been the main issues of this generation after the age of 30? Since the oldest are now 64? And the youngest are 49. 45:46 AA: I am not sure that-that the issues are any different for the Boomers today than they are for other people today, you know, younger people today. I do not. I do not, I think it is difficult to single out something called the Boomers in contemporary times, as really being very different from anybody else. We have all been sort of swamped by technology and by materialism and by knowledge, distribution of wealth and that has impacted all of us. I do not know. 46:42 SM: How about before the age of 30? 47:43 AA: Well before the age of 30? Certainly, I think there was, there was a legacy of the days of activism of the days of hope, for humanity, that we-we have power to make things better. I think the, you know, Jimmy Carter was a big disappointment to a lot of the Boomers. He was seen as too timid and, in a way, we were sort of seeing the same things today with Obama, I think people are seeing him as too timid, to willing compromise, who willing to sort of cave in to pressure his enemies. And I think that Carter was the same, although the whole Carter thing was so confounded by the- Iranian contraband, you know, that rumble in the desert has been-been successful. Our perception of Jimmy Carter might be entirely different. And Reagan may never have been elected. Oh, yeah, you have that little military adventure in the desert was the- such a damaging thing that Carter's image and he had nothing to do with it. Bad weather. So, you know, I but I, he was, I think, seen as timid and as a disappointment and not having the courage of [inaudible] and by the, and then Reagan pu-put sort of finality to it, that was the [inaudible] for boomers and [inaudible] and then become as popular as he did further disillusion at least to the Boomers on the left. 49:09 SM: One person told me that when they think of the Boomer generation, they think of white men and women, and they had not, they never thought of even thinking of African Americans and people of different orientation. I have only had a few people say that, but people were upfront about it saying, this is not just about white men and women. So, have you heard that before? 49:38 AA: No but I-I do think that there is a tendency for-for white people, at least, in probably maybe people of color as well to think of Boomers as white. I think that-that is what comes to mind. 50:01 SM: What? What is your- I have gotten a lot of questions here. What is your reaction to conservative thinkers who say most of the problems that Americans did to society today are due to the generation that came of age in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? And I am referring to the drug culture, the sexual freedom, no respect for authority, lawlessness, center, a sense of no moral character or break up the American family, the idea of the welfare state, the rise of special interests, the ugly dressing and clothes that they used to wear rock and roll culture, linked to drugs, that they mocked the IBM mentality of their parents in the (19)50s. And, you know, when I say, you have heard this before, I know that Newt Gingrich, when he came to power (19)94 made commentaries and he is a Boomer. And George Well, over the years has always had articles in his books, shooting at this generation, and of course, you see it today on Fox with Glenn Beck and Mike Huckabee, and even Senator McCain made comments about Hillary Clinton, they are close friends, but made kind of derogatory comments during the campaign a couple years back. So just your thoughts on that? 51:31 AA: Well, it is sort of a revenge thing going on here. I mean, I think that all the attention that the that the activists got during the Boomers, the advent, aggravating people who did not agree with the civil rights movement, or the women's movement or the antiwar movement, or any of that. 51:51 SM: Please speak up to. 51:54 AA: Well, Yeah, I was just going to say that. But there was a lot of attention and a plane that flowed on Boomers on the left, and they did outnumber those on the Right. I think. So, it is important to realize that the psychology of the right, I think, I think, but the psychology of the right is a fear of losing control. It is all about control. And so, now, the right feels better having a big army having a tough belief, tough laws, tough courts, tough judges, you know, we got to maintain control, because we are all flawed center. And so, we need a song, ironically, a strong authoritarian government to keep people under control. And that is a-that is a big part of the psychology of people on the right. And I think, I think they saw the (19)60s and (19)70s as a time of loss of control. people got out of control, so it was very threatening. And so, you know, it is-it is the paradox. Me arguing that we have, you know, the government to say, we got to cut it down, but also to be advocating, this has always been the, the, the contradiction of right wing thought is that, there is theoretical claims of freedom and, and what that really means is freedom to make as much money as you want, and are able to at anybody else's expense is what that really means, which was very narrowly limited to the economic sphere. Right? Because the control is all pervasive on sex life on what you put in your body, so forth. And, and I think that is-that is what we are seeing is just the manifestation of that that dynamic. I think that is why the alliance was the religious right as the and the political right. It is really a pretty new thing. You know it did not exist during the Boomer’s pay day. 54:53 SM: Right. 54:53 AA: That is a relatively and I think that around this whole issue of control. 54:59 SM: You know it is interesting when I lived out in the Bay Area, I am going up to visit a couple days, some old friends, but when I lived out there, there was a minister on the radio. I was I was out there, late (19)83, (19)76 to (19)83. And I will never forget this minister, I was listening to him on a Sunday night, and he said, the world will be a much better place when the last member of the Boomer generation has died. And then he went on his whole sermon was about why because he felt that the not only that those who were the active and protesters, but he said the entire generation, even those that did nothing, were totally subconsciously affected by it. And then it could be nothing, but we create a negativity in our society down the road. It was a I almost threw the radio out the window [laughter] but-but I am. Phyllis Schlafly and David Horowitz and other critics of today's universities say that. Oftentimes they say the troublemakers of the (19)60s now control today's curriculum, and they were referring to obviously the Women's Studies Program, the black studies, gay studies, environmental studies, Asian American, Native American, Chicano, that is what they were referring to. And then, of course, they always say, they are educated. They are indoctrinating, and they are not educating by these things, your thoughts on their thoughts? 56:31 AA: Oh, right. They are, right. They, largely, the curriculum and the faculties are controlled by the troublemakers. And I think the differences in how the troublemakers are perceived and characterized. You know, if these are the people who helped to bring about equality for women, equality for African Americans, the end to an immoral war, the beginning of the end of the suppression of speech. Yeah, they are the troublemakers. And, if that is, you know, that is, that is the group that is in charge of academia right now. Then I am perfectly comfortable with that. 57:34 SM: What did what did universities learn from the students they served in the (19)60s, with particular emphasis on those who protested on campus when activism became the norm? What- I fear that today's universities have forgotten, the lessons that were that they should have learned particularly whether it be in linkage to the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65. And the reasons why it happened. Not being upset with the fact that it did happen but understanding the reasons why it happened. And then all the protests, obviously from babies (19)65, (19)66 through the probably the 1973 time period when activism kind of died on campuses. What-what did universities learn, or do they have amnesia? 58:28 AA: I think the one thing they learned about-about protests was a tactical one. 58:34 SM: Hold on a second. I am going to turn my tape here. Hold on one second. How is your weather out there today? 58:40: AA: Very cloudy. 58:43 SM: We were-we were supposed to have some pretty strong 60 miles- [tape cuts] I do not know where they would be would it be, but I did not really the only reason. I am back. Go right-ahead. 58:59 AA: Okay. Well, I was going to say that. 59:06 SM: Still there? 59:10 AA: Yes, just a second, I dropped my phone. The- let us see what was on my mind, my mind was wondering- 59:35: SM: I was wondering what the universities learned from the students and service of the (19)60s, or do they have amnesia? 59:32 AA: they learned I mean, some tactical ways of dealing with protesters, and that is stop their issues, to have a conversation with-with the protesters. And-and in many cases, they did not do that. We did a major study on that during the (19)70 and the real difficulties on campus that came when the administration refused to stop or negotiate with the protesters. That is that. And also, the other one is bringing police on the campus inventorially. Because that was always an instigator to violence. I think they are much more sophisticated tactically, because they were on the other side of the protests during the during the (19)70s, late (19)60s, early (19)70s. So, they learned that much. Not allowed to negotiate with seemingly unreasonable people. 1:01:04 SM: Yeah, I think their whole experience at Kent State and Jackson State Police and guard coming on campus, when I was in Ohio State, Dr. Philip trippy, you may have known was my well, he was-he was one of the reasons why I went to Ohio State. And then I had a great advisor. In Dr. Roosevelt, Johnson went on to Johns Hopkins University, and they were like, to close the faculty members. And we have a lot of classes dealing with the issue of illegal aspects in higher education, about who can and cannot come on a university campus. And so, you are really right down there with respect to responding to that. Still there? 1:01:46 AA: Yes, I think, I think they-they learned a lot about the tactics. You know, the problem is, is that we do not have these big, weeping social issues, that can galvanize a lot of people. You know, you enumerated all the other much smaller scale protest movements of various sorts. Not only are they not able to galvanize large numbers of students around an issue, but also the ethical and moral issues are not as clear cut. You know, just to take one example, in the American Indian distaste for team mascot name, as you know- 1:02:49 SM: Cleveland Indians, and- 1:02:52 AA: Basically, the main issue that seems to get the attention of activists in the American community, and one of my former doctoral students, devoting pretty much all of her spare time to this issue. And it does not, it does not get any attention from people outside of the community involved. Like racial discrimination got the attention of a lot of white people. And gender discrimination got the attention of a lot of men. And of course, woman was a large enough group. It did not need the men, but it nevertheless, there was a lot of attention. So, these, a lot of these more specialized protests do not seem to get that much attention. And, and also, I think the-the, what is required to deal with it is a fairly minor things like, okay, Stanford, led the way back in the (19)60s, aging, his name from the Indians to the Cardinals. And then, I mean, big deal. And of course, professional sports teams are refusing fraud. Basically, that-that is the problem is it is the issues do not get the attention, get the empathy, empathy of people outside of the group. 1:04:49 SM: Bear with me here I have a question to ask here. And we will read this thing-thing, man, we will read this one. Universities today- This is just me thinking. Universities today emphasize service learning, and really have a push for volunteerism as important goals and preparing students for the world they will face in the future, by giving them the sense of helping and caring for those less fortunate than themselves. However, I feel universities are afraid of the term activism, which is really a 24 to 24/7 mentality as opposed to volunteerism that is oftentimes required, especially in Greek life organizations, and but although others do it on their own, maybe for two hours a week, because they we because they remember a time of disruption in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Where students demand. Where students were making demands that is greater questioning of what money is or accepted or used from corporations linked to war. These are just examples. In my right in my perception that money over ideas and social conscience is the number one thing in higher ed today. Because they are constantly doing fundraising, everybody has a link to it. And if there is a threat to that, these other you know, a lecture, they want to put a lecture because of that speaker is controversial, it could affect the money coming into the university. Are universities afraid activism, the term activism? 1:06:32 AA: That is hard to say? I guess I would put it differently. I think, what the materialism has infected. Is university, far beyond what we could have imagined, back in the (19)60s and (19)70s. And it has been exacerbated by policymakers who starve the institutions. And they find out, they can get away with that, because the institutions have a way of compensating mainly to raise their fees. And so, I think the-the focus on money is-is way too powerful. And it distorts our thoughts, distort our policies. And so, you know, we-we hire fundraisers to lead our institutions rather than educational leaders. And I think that is a huge mistake. 1:08:06 SM: That was what Arthur Chickering said, when I interviewed him, about six months ago, at the end of the interview of a job and revenue, book, education, identity, in depth, comparing about the boom generation, I asked him this. Is there one final thought you would like to give me as we end the interview? Is there anyone concern you have about higher education today? And he said, yes. Corporations have again, taken over. 1:08:34 AA: He is right? 1:08:35 SM: And, and you see, that is what really upsets me as a student, the (19)60s and you think of the Free Speech Movement, you think of Mario Savio, whether you like the guy or not, he is his voice. And if you read his speeches and what he had to say, to universities, about ideas, that is why I went to school, I went to school because I loved to learn about ideas. It is not about corporations taken over. And I know and so I have interviewed quite a few people linked to the Free Speech Movement. And even though they like Clark Kerr, as a human being, and many of them because he got fired by Ronald Reagan, and that was a plus in the eyes of the movement because that was a good thing. They did not because they just did not like Reagan so much that they call that a badge of honor for-for him. But, you know, he talked about the knowledge factory, well knowledge factories, what that upset a lot of students at Berkeley, and I tell you, it worries me today that history has forgotten in the university. And those students back then we were really fighting for the students of the day because the universities of our learning and ideas of education first, will last and forever. That is just me. 1:09:49 AA: I would agree with you. And the tragedies that we seem to have come to the place now where bottom line seems to predominate over everything else. And it is, it is bad. 1:10:13 SM: I want to get this quartered here that you have a tremendous interview that I have read over the web with T. Mills, do you remember this interview? And this is a quote from you, you have already mentioned this, but I want it for the record. This is a quote from you. “The problem is really larger than that, because the society is so different than it was in 1969. Kids grow up with a different set of stimulation, their ability to concentrate, their ability to read to listen well is different. It is different primarily because of TV, and the electronic media.” [chuckles] And that is-that is a beautiful quote [inaudible]. I actually sent this quote to some of my friends on Facebook that are in higher ed, did not. You basically, that was what you have been saying. 1:11:02 AA: Yeah, and, you know, we even tested this out, we-we studied a couple of cohorts of college undergraduates to see how their materialistic values develop during college. And, of course, in general, they tend to decline. And I think that is one of the salutary effects of the college experience is, students began to reassess their values and priorities. And this has been true from the earliest studies back in the (19)30s. That the college experience tends weaken your materialistic values, but there are individual exceptions. And one of the interesting studies we did was to see what-what kinds of experiences during the college years tend to promote materialistic values and guess what it is the television that you watch in your, in strengthening your materialistic values. 1:12:25 SM: You mentioned in that interview with cane Mills that the students today, in 2010, that you stated in the same interview is as much different is a much different clientele than those in the (19)60s and (19)70s. In the year that because their values are different. There is less learning for its own sake. And we learn in order to get credentials, get a job and to make more money. And you are-you are pretty good at saying, this is not a blame game. But it is just the basic fact that our culture is different. When you talk about their values are different. Could you just explain how the Boomer-Boomer generation values are different than say the millennial values of today? 1:13:13 AA: Well, first of all, they are much less politically and gay today. They are more cynical about politics. So of course, that leaves the field to the people who want to manipulate the political world, because the populace is not that interesting. And that is reflected of course in voting patterns and a lot of other things. The- I also think that not having access to print media that you and I were used to, is another factor because I really believe that print media, getting your news, through print media is a different experience. Again, you are more reflective. I think getting it off the internet or on television, which is worst thing is- makes you much more vulnerable to being manipulated, frankly. And so, I think it is easier today to manipulate public opinion than it ever has been. The so-called mainstream media are responsible here, it seems to me again, because they are primarily out to make a buck. And so, you know, if it bleeds, it leads, and the most outrageous things that politicians say and do get the attention. And so, people who are willing to be outrageous who are willing, and the attention really is-is simply look what this person said, rather than this person made up a story or this person lied, or this person to sort of the facts, they do not have that kind of reporting anymore in the mainstream media very much more. And maybe we get a little bit of that on MSNBC. But it is not right-wing propaganda. It is a being a funnel, for right-wing propagandists, I am overstating the case, but the problem is that our brains are being watched. And we do not know it. And there are some people who-who resist it. You know, years ago, Leo Postman used this wonderful metaphor in the sidebar, you know, what education really needs is the capacity to develop our craft detectors. I think he is lifting a line from Ernest Hemingway or somebody earlier. But the idea that, particularly this day, where were barraged with opinions and, and distortions and lies and so forth, is that we need to have the capacity to sort out reality from propaganda. And I think we lacked that kind of critical capacity. People do not have it. 1:17:14 SM: You-you mentioned in-in a lot of your writings that one of the key components of a successful college career is the emphasis on diversity. And I 100 percent agree. I went to Ohio State because I knew in that program, even in early (19)70s, little (19)70s, that multicultural diversity was a very important part of their program. And I was honored to have Dr. Johnson's my advisor who really, you know, made a strong in that particular area. But there, you mentioned in [inaudible] talking about diversity, that there were several ways of talking about it, you felt it was important that if you had to preach it, then do it, you were able to incorporate it into your courses or workshops and speakers on campus. And students that are encouraged to interact between the races. And then you see the very end student outcomes that are not positive come out of this emphasis. Have you-have you again, respond to these critics? And again, I always bring this because I would have to have both sides here, who say that some that all of these activities centered around indoctrination, not education. Because when you say preaching it and incorporating it, I think you have already responded with respect to an earlier question on this, but diversity is important, but for those some students today, and I hate it, I do not like it forced down my throat. And I have had that from some of my conservative students over the past 10 to 15 years. 1:18:51 AA: Well, I do not know exactly what they mean by forced down your throat. You know- 1:18:56 SM: Well, that is, there is nothing wrong with preaching the importance of it in the university environment for its students. That could be from administrators or faculty members? 1:19:08 AA: Well, you know, the, the whole idea of a liberal education is based on this concept of exposing the students to new and different points of view, people, cultures, ideas, and so forth. That is-that is the whole idea behind it. And of course, there are some people who are do not want their kids to be exposed to a liberal learning, and so they will send them to an evangelical college or the Military Academy or something like that. Wonderful aspects of our diversity. But the vast majority of our institutions are committed to liberal learning, and to providing a liberal education. And a good part of that involves exposing the students to new and different people and ideas. And, you know, what is really interesting is that we have just finished in fact, you might want to check out the microsite he developed for the book that is coming out at the end of this month. So, cultivating the spirit, “How college can enhance students’ inner lives,” that is the subtitle. Anyway, you can just go to cultivatingthespirit.com. And the website, indorses the book and so forth. But we were very excited about this. Because what we found is that experiences that expose students to new and different kinds of people and ideas and cultures, so forth. experiences like study abroad, interdisciplinary study, service learning, and even interracial interactions. All these experiences contribute to student's spiritual development and enhances their lives. And when we have defined spirituality as-as a multi-dimensional quality of all traits like equitability and your sense of connectedness to the world, your, your ethic of caring for other stuff like that, these are spiritual qualities that we looked at. And, and, and all of these kinds of liberal learning experiences, enhance spiritual development. And spiritual development, in turn, enhances the college experience in general. Qualities developed in college, they get better grades, they are more likely to be satisfied with college, they become more interested in graduate study and so forth. So, it is a very exciting study, and we had no idea we are going to find something quite-quite exciting. 1:22:28 SM: It is amazing, because as I am reading this question here, where were the students in the (19)60s and (19)70s, with respect to spirituality, the perception is the perception that you read from the books on the (19)60s is as they were reared in large numbers going to church and synagogues in the (19)50s. And that religion was very important then. And, and of course, religion was an issue when John Kennedy was elected president there of all the concerns of the Catholics, the pope would control his thought. But as the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, showed many less organized religions, and became involved in what I call the inner spirituality. We saw it with the Beatles, we saw with rap groups, we felt with entertainers that will the media portrayed Zen Buddhism became very strong. Course people went into communes and so forth. And so, they continue their religion but not in a structured way. are your thoughts on the Boomer generation and their sense of spirituality? 1:23:44 AA: I think it was expressed in their-in their moral outrage about, about the war about racism, both myself I think, I think we are sensitive of meaning and purpose and value and that sort of thing came out in that form. And it was all self-righteousness involved, and no question about that. But I think in general, the run of the mill student protests were motivated by altruism and by concern with social justice and equity and caring about the others. And that is an important aspect of one spirituality is one sense of connectedness, and people. Some-some theorists argue that it is the essence of what spirituality is all about. But, you know, the religious engagement Actually, we found declines during college while your spatial qualities tend to get stronger. Even though spirituality is more often a quality of religious people, and is not always that question about that, but in spite of the fact that the two kinds of qualities are positively associated, one of them decline in college and the other gets stronger. And I think that has a lot to do with the fact that, to a certain extent, the entering college students religious versus a product, a heavily a product of the family experience. They get away from that he is exposed to other religions and other religious perspectives. And then he begins to wonder, well, maybe this is not the one and only fate, and so forth. And I think that because we have a measure of religious struggle and that-that does show a substantial growth during college. 1:26:07 SM: I think it was about eight years ago, at West Chester University at the Student Affairs meeting. I do not know how it came out during the round came along around any news to report and someone said, well, are you aware of the students meeting in the basement of Challenger Hall, and they are meeting at seven o'clock in the morning before classes meet students of color or sexual orientation? Male, female or all ethnic groups. And I said why? Well, because one of their fellow students was killed in an automobile accident, over the Christmas holidays. And when they came back, they were meaning to try to figure out, why did this happen to her? And what is my meaning? Why am I here? And it had nothing to do with whether you are Catholic or Jewish, you know, Muslim, Protest- It had nothing to do with any of that it had to do with the fact of they loved the students. They could not understand why she had been taken away in and acc-. the person was a drunk, that did it. And he was just coming back from Christmas break, and he was killed. And so, they were just sat over there for dinner. they were talking about why are we here? What is our purpose? 1:27:22 AA: Yeah, and that is-that is exactly what-what we call that a spiritual quest. That shows a lot of growth during college, and they begin to attach more importance to exploring questions like that the big quest of life and living, 1:27:39 SM: Right. One of the things that- 1:27:41 AA: I am going to have to take off. So, can we wrap this up in a minute? 1:27:50 Yeah, I ever run another five pages of questions, but I guess I will not be able to get them in. Can I ask two more questions? 1:27:54 AA: Okay. 1:27:55 SM: Maybe; let us see? Which ones do I want to ask you? I guess. One of the questions is that in the in the late (19)80s, and early (19)90s, political correctness was a very, we heard that all the time on college campuses, the PC, and there is a sharp attack on some of the programs we mentioned, and so forth. And then, of course, in the (19)50s, we saw attacks on trying to find communists, you know, behind every wall or whatever. Did you think when you heard all these talks about political correctness in the late (19)80s, and (19)90s. Any comparison with McCarthyism in the (19)50s trying to drown out people that in a university environment that for whatever reason? 1:28:51 AA: I have not heard that comparison, but I-I understand it, I mean, I can see the parallel and it probably has some validity to it because, like with any-any social movements, they are going to be excesses. And I think some of the political correctness, you know, represents an excess is, you know, inevitable social movement. And I, my sense about it is that is that we just should not take ourselves too seriously. [laughs] That have a bit of a sense of humor about-about that. You know, it is interesting that the phrase political correctness was actually coined by people on the web to and they would use it to joke with each other about-about being too clapper with language or whatever. The right picked it up and ended against it. Last- 1:30:02 SM: We had a-we had a conservative politician in the mid (19)90s. Coming to the university checking to make sure faculty members were in their office. And they were supposed to be looking at liberal [inaudible]. It was unbelievable. And I thought is this McCarthyism all over again? 1:30:18 AA: Listen, I know a guy in the Department of Education when the Reagan administration came in. They sent some guy with a clipboard around to one office after another, classifying people as to their politics. And I would say how they would classify you, and he says, as a communist. 1:30:41 SM: Oh, my God. 1:30:42 AA: Okay. Department of Education. 1:30:45 SM: Oh, my God. My last question here is that data has shown that less than 16 percent, were involved in any sort of activism within the Boomer generation, the (19)60s or (19)70s. And that could be conservative or liberal activism. People that I have interviewed for this book, have said it was much less than 15 percent. Do you have data to verify this? As far as values are concerned. Do you have data to show the impact that this period had on Boomer youth both consciously and subconsciously, as time went by? 1:31:20 AA: You know, it all depends on the, you know, the most widely participated in protest was, of course, first day in 1971, (19)70, (19)71. Whenever they say was, we do a national study of this of this whole issue. In the published in a book called The Power of Protest, it is a jokey book of 19- whenever that was 1980, I cannot remember exactly when it might have been earlier 1977. But a lot of it is in there. I could not dig that out right now. But there is a lot of sorts of normative data on how many participated and what impact that participation had on them and that kind of thing. And so, you might want to check that out. 1:32:16 SM: What is the name of that Book? 1:32:19 AA: The Power of Protest. There were four of us who were authors if I recollect my wife, and I think we had four authors on that. 1:32:36 SM: What do you think the legacy will be in this generation once they are all gone? What will the historians’ educators and-and the sociologists be saying about the generation and secondly, in the current way, you feel this generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, with so much division, that they will not be healed. The reason I asked this question is because I took a group of students to Washington in 1995 and I cannot understand this [inaudible]. And they were very concerned that the Boomer generation that they had seen on film reminded them of the Civil War generation that they had been reading about in their books, where divisions were so strong between black and white male and female gainsay. Those who supported the war and those who were against the war that that they were going to go to their grave like the Civil War generation bitter, feeling hate remorse and not feeling like they did in the Civil War. So basically, it is a two-part question, question of healing and the question of the legacy. 1:33:53 AA: I think if they it depends on who they are going to believe. You know, the right-wing propaganda machine is well oiled and has starting with, I guess, the Nixon and on with [inaudible], with these are books that are being drowned out by the Heritage Foundation and the taser and so forth. If you want to believe those characterizations, when you know, you are going to, you know, feel like you are a failure, nothing happens, but deceit to me. We got to look at the facts. And the facts are the generation initiated a lot of very-very important, positive changes and provided an atmosphere for other social movements to take foothold. And also, they popularize the idea of a value-based approach to public policy and government, so forth, as opposed to a cynical power approach. And so, there is so many positive aspects to it. And the excesses are easy to burlesque like political correctness, like reverse discrimination, and so forth. And but I think in, all in all, it has been very positive force in our society and-and the folks who, who were part of that movement, need to step up and be counted. So, you know, we are proud of what we accomplished, and we think society is better off for it, and it is not drugs and rock and roll. 1:36:16: SM: Much more I thank you; do you have any other final thoughts? 1:36:20 AA: I think that is about it. I really got to run. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Alexander Astin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Astin, Alexander W. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; Authors; Astin, Alexander W.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Alexander Astin is Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Higher Education and Organizational Change, at the University of California, Los Angeles and the founding director for the Higher Education Research Institute at UCLA. Dr. Austin has authored 23 books and has been a recipient of awards for his outstanding research. In addition, he was a part of the National Academy of Education. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-10-15 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.35 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-04-13 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Judith Clavir Albert, 1943- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Judy Gumbo Albert is a Canadian-born activist who was associated with many organizations such as the Yippies, Women's International Terrorist Conspiracy from Hell, and The Women's Liberation Movement. She married Stew Albert, a political activist, who was a founder of the Yippies. Dr. Gumbo Albert has a Ph.D. in Sociology. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15107,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,11791078],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dr. Judy Gumbo Albert is a Canadian-born activist who was associated with many organizations such as the Yippies, Women's International Terrorist Conspiracy from Hell, and The Women's Liberation Movement. She married Stew Albert, a political activist, who was a founder of the Yippies. Dr. Gumbo Albert has a Ph.D. in Sociology. </span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Yippies; Women's Rights Movement; Vietnam War; Protests; Social activism; Black Panthers; Children; Environmentalism; Counterculture; SDS; Weathermen; Baby boom generation; Surveillance.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Yippies; Women's Rights Movement; Vietnam War; Protests; Social activism; Black Panthers; Children; Environmentalism; Counterculture; SDS; Weathermen; Baby boom generation; Surveillance.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 125:57 Subject LCSH Political activists--United States; Albert, Judith Clavir, 1943--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dr. Judy Gumbo Albert Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Kimberly F Mourao Date of interview: 13 April 2010 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:04 SM: Okay. Again, this is going to be a combination of general questions. And I started out basically with some of the direct questions that were not in the general question. Your parents were communists living in Canada, a life with serious thoughts that you became a yippie. Years later, where serious, serious thinking theater and fun were united. How does your upbringing shape your future social networks? And i.e., the yippies, the women's movement? Things like that? 00:37 JA: How does my upbringing shape my social network? 00:41 SM: Yeah, how did it? How did? How did you go from being, living in Canada and being very serious to moving to the United States and being linked up with a group like the yippies? 00:53 JA: Well, it was called rebellion. I had, when I was living in Canada, I was leading the leading a very traditional life, I had an early marriage. And one day, I came home to find my husband in bed with another woman. And basically, that was, it was a fight or flight response. So, I left Canada, I was, I have a, I was working on my PhD in Sociology. I left Canada to come down to the United States to a sociology convention, and you know, I walked outside, and the sun was shining, and it was warm, and it was cold and windy in Canada, because I guess it was the fall. And there were people, professors and students demonstrating against the war. And it was just a completely opposite experience to that sort of the pain of this early first marriage breakup. And so, I left. I would say that, in terms of social networks, when I first arrived, the people that I gravitated to were people who were familiar to me, which meant some of the more sectarian group on the University of California campus, but for various reasons that lasted maybe about fifteen minutes. And I was lucky enough at a, or the stars were aligned in the right way. That at a meeting, a Stop the Draft week meeting for the Oakland Seven who are a group of young men who had been indicted for trying to stop trip trains, that I happen to meet Stew, and that, that story is very simple. I was living in Berkeley by then I was by myself, and I was interested in meeting other people. So, I went to this stuff, the draft week meeting, and I walked in and it was like I was in, it was like a match.com in the 1968 because the room at Macau's campus was just filled with very interesting looking people, the men were wearing the army jackets, and they had long hair and the women were wearing, you know, long flowy robes. And there were these tall California girls, I am short, I am from Toronto, and I am Jewish and have these tall, beautiful, blonde California girls. And so, it was like a completely different environment for me. I went and I saw across the room two blonde men, I have always been attracted to blonde. So, I saw I saw across the room to blonde men, I went up and I introduced myself and of course, I have been prepared for this event by wearing, putting on my best, you know, miniskirt and black fishnet stockings, and I went up to these two guys. And I said, “Hi, I want to introduce myself. My name is Judy. And I just arrived from Canada.” And they both said hello. But then one of them was Stew put out his hand and touch me on the nose with this little finger. And that was sort of, that was how we met. 04:18 SM: That is like you will not be back up in Canada. Just before we get back to the United States again: What does it mean to be a red diaper baby because you are the third person, I have interviewed that said they were red diaper babies. 04:31 JA: Well, there is your social network. See what it meant, it meant that a lot of things, it meant that one of my earliest memories is the getting up on a chair in my parent’s kitchen. And I am sure at their urging or directions, calling the White House to ask them not to kill the Rosenberg’s. What is meant was growing up with a set of extraordinarily progressive values that the, that understanding the phrase “from each according to their ability to each according to their need,” was the way you look at the world that each person puts in what the society what they can and takes out what they need. There was an extraordinary emphasis on equality, there was this extraordinary identification with the oppressed of the world, whether it was the dustbowl refugees, or black people in the south, it did not matter, you, you, you had instilled in you from the earliest possible age, a progressive activist set of values, which then really, sort of defined your entire life. 05:43 SM: You mentioned that one of the things that if remember right, when I was reading some background information on you is that in your early years, when you were talking about those qualities of being a red diaper baby, also the comic books were banned. And that was, that was kind of a part of it as well, because everything was serious that but, that you became a yippie and that comedy was very important with along with the serious. 06:14 JA: Well, the yippies were not really that serious, what, you know, we let us get that up front. That was one of the reasons that I was attracted to them was, was that they, they were not that serious. And it allowed me to both be political, but not have to always look at things with the serious points of view. No, it is absolutely true that that in, in, in my household, comic books were banned. And everything sort of, there was a lot of, for the revolution you did things out of moral values, you did things in your home moral universe, was, is not good for the revolution? Are you doing things that will help other people? And for that, you have to be serious. Yes. But I think also comic books were banned, because they were strange, they were different. And in my household, it did not last that for a while, you know, they were they were ways to subvert the dominant paradigm. And that is when, you know, if you could not have comic book in your house, your friends had him, and it was not a big deal. 07:18 SM: And I asked Paul, this very same question that I am going to ask you, and that is what was in your own words, define what it means to be a yippy. 07:27 What it means to be a yippy, is to create a myth, an ironic myth about society about activity, and to act on that myth. For example, when we went to Chicago in (19)68, you know, we said we were going to do all kinds of things with none of which were even possible. And yet, we were able to, we were able to, I am not, I am not doing this very well. You know, I wrote something recently, about what it means to be a yippy. And actually, maybe what I should do is read it if I can find it. 08:06 SM: Oh, that is fine. Yep. 08:08 JA: Just go on pause for a minute, because- 08:12 SM: That is all right. Who were, the people at your wedding? Was, were those, was that your son and your family there holding the cover? 08:27 JA: No, that was, it was, it was, the answer to that is partly. Hold on for just a second. 08:34 SM: Yep. Was Paul at your wedding? 08:59 JA: No, he was not they could not come. 09:00 SM: Okay. 09:03 JA: But Bobby Steele, I will tell you who was at the wedding. Bobby Steele was at the wedding; Steve Bingham was at the wedding. 09:16 SM: Bobby was in Philadelphia, was not he? I thought- 09:19 JA: Oh no, no, he was here. 09:20 SM: Oh, he must have, all right. He did live in Philly. Okay. All right. 09:35 JA: I think I will not be able to define exactly I mean, I am sure Paul did a much better, within sort of quarter round on it. But when I prided myself as a yippy, I like to think of myself as Alice Waters, okay. And if I said if I was going to get a recipe for yippie, this is what it would be. All right. Ready? Mix together equal parts of hippie counterculture, with new left anti-war politics. Anything that smacks of seriousness and a large portion of ironic theatrical Jewish humor, together with a dash of anarchism and a dollop of Eros, sprinkled liberally with high grade marijuana both in LastPass and real estate and the pure audacity of weatherman, manipulate the media to expose the steps with hypocrisy. Garnish with my generation’s fervent, all-consuming fitments to end this disastrous illegal war in Vietnam. Serve hot. 10:42 SM: That is beautiful. Yeah, I think even Poland loves that. 10:51 JM: It is, you know, it is hard. It was hard to figure it out. But it is kind of easier, to it is easy at this moment anyway for me to read it rather than to say it, but that that is what yippy is. 11:02 SM: Yeah, I, again, I asked this, another question to Paul. And it is a regarding the yippies. And that is, how did how did you meet Abby, Jerry, Anita, Phil Oaks, Paul and Jonah Raskin, because I know Jonah too. I interviewed Fiona, very early on. And those you know, your name and your husband's name. And these names that I just mentioned are the ones that people know about. But how did you meet them? How did you become a group? 11:33 JA: Well, I had as I told you, I met him to in Berkeley, and when I have moved, in around May of 1968, I went up to Canada to get divorced from the, the husband who you know, the first husband. In the meantime, Sue, who had been living on a couch in Jerry's apartment, realized that he needed to do something. Find a place for the, for two of us. So, what he managed to do was, I guess, probably talk to Abby. But he ended up converting the cellar of Liberty house into a rent free, cold water flat. And if you had been in the cellar, it was there was no toilet, for example, there was just this sort of pipe that water drips down into a barrel and we would pee in the barrel. And every morning Sue would go up the metal stairs that lead up Bleecker Street and dump the barrel of piss water into the gutter. The cellar was, I, he had a bed, he managed to get a bed. He got a hot plate, an electric frying pan. And that was where we lived and because the cellar, because it was the cellar, and the summer was hot. All these people Jerry, Abby, Nancy, Anita, Krasner everybody, they would come down to our cellar to visit. And so that was what I would say I probably first met them in our cellar. I may have met Abby for the first, and Paul and Anita for the first time at Abby's place on St. Mark's. But um, no, I have met Jerry and Nancy for the first time in the cellar. But we would also spend time up in their apartments. You know, they live right down the street, right down the street and across the street from at the end. And these are all on St. Mark's place. And Liberty house, which was by the way, a co-op that sold goods made by poor black women in Mississippi to benefit the Civil Rights Movement. Abby has been a, actually a manager of Liberty house and had done the publicity for them and had also organized a program called Food for Newark during the Newark disturbances out of Liberty house. And so, and Liberty house was on Bleecker Street, which is not that far from where Abby and Anita and Jerry and Nancy were living. So that was where I first met them. 14:00 SM: Yeah, I have a question too, is at its core, at it was height, how many yippies were there? I mean, corps yippies that were, I know there were chapters all over the country at a certain point, not only the New York chapter, but there were other chapters. But did, did the main leaders keep track of the corps? 14:20 JA: No. 14:21 SM: Okay. So, there is no way of knowing how many. 14:24 JA: We were, there were work groups, there were, they were, they were, they were more expensive circles and groups with a car. Right? So, you know, you could, people came people went, but the people who were close friends and stuck together or were in conflict with each other, as Abby and Sherry were off and on during the summer of (19)68. That, that was the, the corps group was not that much bureaucratic, we talk about the yippies as organizations and chapters and that, that was not our, our way of thinking. 14:58 SM: Yeah, because I was often wondering, you know, because they were involved in so many different protests and so many different events is how did they survive financially? How do they support themselves? So that was, how did like, before Jerry and Abby went off and did lectures, lecture survey, they, how are they surviving? 15:18 JA: Well, you know, the FBI would ask the same question, and nobody ever really knew the answer. 15:25 SM: Well, I am not the FBI. 15:26 JA: Oh, no, I am not saying that you are. But it is, it is one of the questions. I, you know, I do not know, there was there was no, liberals would give people money. Abby had the free stuff and everything that generated any money. I do not know, you know, I know, I had money from my father, my father, when I left Canada after that, he gave me $500 for the revolution, he said, so that was cool. You know, people, parents gave him money. I do not know, I you know, I literally, how did the rent get paid. Who knows? Who knows? 16:02 SM: Essentially, Mark wrote in his book “Underground,” if you make reference to which I have read, which I think is a fantastic book and should be required reading in any course, in the (19)60s, I interviewed Mark. He talks about, you know, that very same thing about where the money came from, he said he never had a problem with it. And he said it was because people were always there to donate when there was a need, and, and no name need to be mentioned, there was money. And that was- 16:29 JA: That is my recollection, too. It is not, I mean, people were not, we were, we were not at that point, selling marijuana or anything like that. It was, there was, the money was there. Remember also, it was the (19)60s and there was a lot of money around? Like, for example, Sue, and I would both write for the Berkeley Barb. And Max Scherr paid twenty-five cents a column inch. Now you cannot live on that. But there was money around it. I do not know. I do not know. 16:59 SM: Yeah, one of the things your, your husband's do is, I have got, by the way, I want since I have you on the phone today is, I want to buy one of those books from you. If you have any left. 17:10 JA: I do, I have a few. I sell them for $45 because they are signed. And now the only signed one, you know, there is not going to be any more signed ones. 17:17 SM: Well, I will mail a check to you for $45 but we will figure that out at the end of the interview. But I, because the people who are going to be reading this may not have, will ever read the book. Uh, who is Stew Albert, and I know he was a young ̶ came from Brooklyn. He was a kid whose father was a salesclerk. And I know he was one of the people that you, you talk about reinventing yourself. So, I would like to talk who is Stew. And number one this quote that you have, which I think is a beautiful, I can explain this. When you were talking about the people in the (19)60s, it must have been the (19)60s, that brief period of time when everything seemed possible, and the future was up for grabs. Just who was Stew? 18:02 JA: Okay. Well, first of all, his father actually works in the city record. He was not a salesclerk. But he came from a lower middle-class background in Brooklyn. And at a certain point, he worked for the, he always had for some reason very contrary to parent’s progressive politics, his first demonstration was demonstrated, was against capital punishment against the execution of Caryl Chessman. He went to Cuba, to visit Cuba with a friend at an early age and always had an attraction to radical politics. At a certain point, he came out to Berkeley and fell in just by happenstance with Allen Ginsberg and then went to, came over to Berkeley, crashed for one evening on the floor of the, what was called at that time the Vietnam big committee office, the VBC office where Jerry Rubin, unceremoniously tried to kick him out because he was like, almost like a homeless person, he was a homeless person sleeping on the floor. But instead, they became the best of friends and Jerry and Stew were really best friends all the way through the 1960 series versus being a one with Abby, the leader of the yippies, leader in quotation marks, and then Stew's other best friend in Berkeley was the Black Panther leader Eldridge Cleaver. So that is, you know, that was ̶ what was the summary of who Stew was. He was a journalist, he was an extremely good writer, he wrote as I said, for the perfect barb, the perfect bribe and an organizer for Chicago. And then, you know, within that, which is when we got together then we had various adventures together and Stew was, he was, it was, he was someone who people like to confide in. So, for example, if Jerry and Abby were having one of their many, you know, the older brother younger brother type ego conflict, who would always mediate. And he and people listened to him he was very smart. He had the kind of memory where he could call up a factoid about anything from anywhere at any time. And so, after the (19)60s, we, he essentially, we worked on, he worked on a few books, and he continued to, his career in writing. And he also sorts of when we moved to Portland, became an organizer for progressive Jewish causes. 20:37 SM: What is interesting, I can see how Abby and Jerry may have not hit it off at times, because I do not know if you ever saw the YouTube when Jerry was on the Phil Donahue show. 20:48 JA: I asked if somebody just emailed me about that. 20:51 SM: Oh, my God, he put Phil Donahue in his place. It was just unbelievable it is like and of course, people were calling in upset that Donahue who had allowed him on the show, but he was calling Phil everything in the book. And, but it is amazing because Phil's the most liberal guy you could ever see on television. But he, in a way, if he was talking that way to Abby, I do not know that Abby could ever get a word in edgewise. 21:16 JA: Believe me, Abby, Abby, could. That was one of the things about observing, they are really, really interesting. During Chicago, there was a lot of Jerry/Abby conflict that was echoed by and it would, Stew would mediate on a case and, but we the women would kind of echo the, you know, we would take sides. And one, one example would be, there was a huge conflict over the type of pig, pig assist that we would run for president. Abby wanted a tiny pig. And I think that the Hog Farm was supposed to show up with one and did not, Jerry, in the meantime, wanted one of the big fat ugly pig, so Jerry, and I, and Stew and Phil Ochs and Wolfie Lowenthal and we all went out to a farm. And we got you know, we picked up, we picked up this big giant pig and then Jerry's took it to the civic center. The Chicago Civic Center in front of the Picasso statue and got arrested with the pig. And then they were in jail. The, all of them. And one of the cops came up to them and said, “I hate to tell you this boys but the pig squeals.” Even arrested Stew. And then, then we heard the rumors that they had barbecued, the cops had barbecued the pig. And oh well you know it is expected, right? But, but what was, so Jerry and Abbie in that time period, were having, were really having all kinds of pretty unpleasant disagreements with each other. But a year later, as the conspiracy trial, they actually made a point of making up, forgiving each other and presenting a united front to both the other defendants and certainly Judge Hoffman and show, I believe they even had a, may, may have been the first ungay-gay marriage where they exchanged rings. But, but so there was a qualitative difference between the way they treated each other in Chicago during the during the riot, riots, the police riots and a year later with the conspiracy trial. And then afterwards, they, they sort of, after well, it is evolved back into the old competition where it was, they did the “yippy-yappy” debate, and Jerry would argue one thing and happy with it another Sunday. So, it was a love hate, you know, competitive brother relationship with the way I was looked at it. 23:52 SM: You are very strong woman and I know that some of your peers were as well. I would like for you to describe your thoughts on the roles that women played in the yippies. I know if Dr. King were alive today and on the Civil Rights Movement, sexism was a major issue and, and I know it was in the anti-war movement. And I have had people that have talked to me, a couple females, professors who said they left the movement because it was so sexist that they went into the Women's Movement and the rest is history. Describe again, describe your thoughts on the roles that women played in the yippies and whether you felt you were equal within the organization to the men and in the anti-war movement overall. And then I also see that you were very involved in the growth of the Women's Movement back in (19)69. Over there in the, at the People's Park, and that was very important for you. So, in respect, with respect to your husband, Abbie, Jerry, Paul, Phil, Jonah, were, you know, how do they treat women? 25:01 JA: Well, I did not meet Jonah until the mid (19)70s. Jonah was actually in what I always called “Stew’s large men’s group,” which formed with Jonah and a number of other people on the East Coast after we broke up. And the reason we broke up at my initiation was because of sexism in the movement. And in the yippies. So, we were, been, was, was Nancy equal to Jerry? No, with Anita equal to Abbie? No, was I equal to Stew? No, but it depends how you, how do you define equal? Right? Were we the ones who held the press conferences? No. Did the media come to us and look us up? No. We are we serving coffee? No. Were we organizing? Were we doing what women traditionally do, which is keeping this thing going, organizing, making sure that things are where they need to be making sure these things happen? That was our job. That was our role. So, but remember, the, the women's movement came around for a reason, they were in (19)68, (19)69, (19)70. So, and most of the couples that I knew, broke up in that period that included me and Stew, we were one of the few however, who got back together, the only other couple in that, from that group who were together before the women's movement, who got back together, were Dave Dellinger and his wife, Betty. But, but Nancy broke up with Jerry, in that, in the early (19)70s. Abbie, of course, went underground. And Anita did not go with them for various reasons. And they never did manage to get back together. So, the answer is yes, there was sexism, yes, there was unequal distribution of power. Yes, the men got way of more the goodies than the women. But I will tell you something. I know this for a fact for Anita, for me, and for Nancy, it was in a period of enormous growth, you could not be, personal growth, you could not be in that environment, you could not be around these guys, without learning from them, without observing them without trying to do the things that they also want, that they have seemed able to do very, very easily. And, and we also had adventures on our own at a certain point, like, for example, Nancy and I and this woman Jeannie Plamondon, who was the White, one of the members of the White Panthers in Detroit, we went to Vietnam together. So, it was not “Oh, yeah, everything were oppressed. It is all bad. Let us leave.” Not at all. It was, it was, “yes, we are not treated equally. But we also, if this is also an opportunity, and we did, we absorb to our core, what it meant to be a yippie to act on your own and to be courageous and to act without fear and to run from the pigs and all that stuff?” 28:07 SM: You said you went to Vietnam; you went as part of a group? 28:09 JA: Yeah. A yippie group 28:11 SM: Oh, I did not know that. Could you tell us about that? 28:14 JA: Well, alright, now Nancy, and I, and Jeannie, were invited by a man in the group, the Vietnamese had a group called the Committee for Solidarity with the American People. And at the time, many people were going to visit Vietnam and coming back essentially, to talk about the devastation of the war. And we, the three of us were invited to, to do that. And so we went, we went, we traveled around the country. We saw the, I remember, there was this one mountain that has been half blown away by bombs. And yet still inside, the Vietnamese people were making the shells and armaments to defend themselves. We, it, it was one of those experiences, that you meet people who are so totally different from you, but yet are able to convey to you their love of their country, and also their ̶ they did not hate us, you know, you would think we would go out in the streets and we would be surrounded by children. And you would think that “oh my god, here is America, raining bombs down on these people, you know, killing them with napalm shooting them in the streets.” You would think that there would be a lot of hatred. We never found that. They said we all, we understand that there is a distinction between the American people and the American government. And so, we you know, I do not remember specifics now, but we, I know that we learned an awful lot about the war about the causes of the war. I remember, for example, that we went to a museum in Hanoi, which is a museum of the war. They, and they gave us, because they had so many, they gave us as a souvenir, a half exploded, anti-personnel bomb, it was like about four inches round, it was metal, no, no, no explosives left, but and you could see all these little ball bearings that were dead. And there is all these little ball bearings that were still embedded in the middle. And so, they would drop these by the hundreds of thousands on people, they would compete anti-personnel weapons against a peasant country, who was basically fighting to resist foreign invasion as this country Vietnam had for thousands of years. And so, these people, Nancy and I, and Jeannie and you know, Jane Fonda and many, many people who went, came back, and were able to talk about our experiences to audiences here in the United States. 31:12 SM: Yeah, I know that Daniel Barragan went because I interviewed him and, and I know of another female, and her name is Charlotte Bunch. 31:19 JA: I know, Charlotte. 31:20 SM: Yep, she went. And- 31:23 JA: There were lots, I think the thing that was really unique about our group was that it was the yippie group. And I guess, that possibly one of the unique experiences that we had, when we were all sitting around one evening out in the country, you know, there are seven or eight of Vietnamese, who would come with us from the committee and, and whoever the local peasants were there, and we smoked this stuff called Tokelau, which was how, you would you smoked in a long pipe with a little bowl on the end of it. And, you know, we would tease them about whether, you know, what was stronger marijuana or Tokelau, and they would say Tokelau, we would say, would say marijuana. And so that was sort of the yippie, that was the yippie aspect of it. 32:11 SM: That I want to make sure you get the other two women's names their full names again? 32:16 JA: Nancy Kurshan, and she see, it was very, Ruben’s girlfriend, we called girlfriend for a number of years, certainly during this period that we are talking about. And the, the other person was Jeannie Plamondon, if you google Pun Plamondon, I know that he wrote a book A while back. So, there is information about- 32:42 SM: This is ̶ this leads me right into my next question, in your own words, who are the key yippy personalities? And I know we have already mentioned them, but the ones I am asking here is: describe in your own words maybe some of the people that are not known? Some of- 32:58 JA: Tall cocky and Super Joel. 33:02 SM: No. 33:03 Well alright, here is, here is a, Super Joel was well known at the time his he was known because if you have ever seen a picture of a hippie putting a flower in the gun of the National Guard, that was Super Joel. Okay, so Super Joel claimed that he was the scion of a mafia, Chicago mafia family. And he said that, that when he decided to join the movement, his grandmother kicked him out, said “do not darken my door again.” After the, you know, the (19)60s were over Super Joel, became a heroin dealer. And grandma says, “oh, welcome back.” Wonderful. I just, this, this story this super Joel tells, he gets very wealthy, or, you know, at least when we visited him at one point, he certainly had all the trappings of wealth, including a motorcycle, a full, full Harley Davidson is in the middle of his living room. And, and, and it turns out, he is gay and he gets AIDS and he dies. Well, a while ago, a few years ago, someone was investigating Super Joel just to find out who he was and found out that Super Joel was not the scion of a mafia family at all, but rather just an ordinary alienates middle class kids from a Chicago suburb. So, he created this entire alternate identity for himself. And everybody believed it. And he was the one, Super Joel was the one who drove the truck into Lincoln Park that the bands were supposed to play on except of course, none of the bands showed up so that, that would be an example of someone who is not known but was certainly an interesting character. And just everybody knew at the time. 34:53 SM: What was his full name? 34:55 JA: Super Joel Tornabene, who knows if that is his real last name? 35:04 SM: You talk about reinventing? Well, he obviously reinvented himself. 35:09 JA: Exactly. Yeah. And you know, there were no boundaries about that in those days. So, it was pretty easy to do. 35:15 SM: Now, were they, were the yippies close to any of these groups. I know there was tension between the Students for Democratic Society, because then pure pow, pow political and my most, I have interviewed quite a few different people. And when I, at the very end when I am giving terms of the period and I say yippies or hippies, or especially the yippies: “no comment,” or “they were frivolous,” or whatever. And this is even some people on the left. So how do you how close were the yippies to, and I will just read these, and you can just comment on it, the Black Panthers, Students for Democratic Society the then the quarter when ̶ 35:55 JA: You do want to do it one at a time? 35:57 SM: Yeah, maybe. So how close were you to the Black Panthers? 36:00 JA: Because of Stew's relationship with Eldridge, we were very close to the Panthers. And in fact, after Chicago, Eldridge, Stew and Jerry and I put out something called the Yippie Panther Pack. So I was, and you know, I am still friends with Bobby today. And, and so I, and actually the reason that Bobby got indicted in Chicago as a conspiracy Brown was because Stew and I had gone and called Eldridge because we thought it was important for them to be a Panther present in Chicago. So, Stew and I, during the summer of (19)68, had called Eldridge, told us because he was on parole could not come out. So, Bobby came instead. And as a result, you know, Bobby was one of the conspiracy aids and then you know, that story. So, the Panthers, yes. Students for a Democratic Society. Not really, although there were, the boundaries were fluid so people could consider themselves to be yippies, but also members of SDS. I know that, I know for a fact there, there were a number of members of SDS, SDS and subsequently the Weather Underground, who consider themselves yippies, very close to the yippies. And maybe they did not say that in, you know, whether I am in town meetings or SDS meetings, but I know for a fact that they did. 37:27 SM: Yeah, I am just going to go into the Weathermen. And you mentioned that of course Mark never, I heard Mark never considered himself a yippy. I do not think. 37:35 JA: Mark is not one of the Weathermen who consider himself to be a yippy. 37:38 SM: How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, which basically took over the anti-war movement in, after the Weathermen took over SDS? 37:48 JA: Well, I would not say VVAW, who took over the anti-war movement, but I do have someone who has been interviewed who knows a lot about the GI movement. [inadible] but no, I do not think that I think there were many, many aspects to the, it was very diverse the anti-war movement. And I remember in 1972, in Miami at the Democratic and Republican convention demonstrations, that VVAW had a campment at Flamingo Park. But then there were a whole bunch of yippies who were there. Abbie was there. I was there. Who was there? There were a whole bunch of the ̶ I do not remember whether Jerry was or not. There were a whole bunch of people who were organizing that demonstration. I know for a fact some of the vets also considered themselves yippies. The people who, who, you know, here is the thing. They may, people may say that the yippies were frivolous, but ask yourself whose name has come down in history? Right? Whose name do people remember from that time. They remember the Black Panthers. And they remember the Weathermen and they remember the yippies, that are, whose remember though, you know, I say we have the historic staying power. 39:06 SM: Yeah, actually, Ron Kovac, I think was there at (19)72, the guy wrote “Born on the Fourth of July.” 39:14 JA: I know I ̶ Ron is a sweetheart, I love him. 39:17 SM: Yeah. And then Bobby Moeller too, I think, was there. 39:19 JA: Bobby I do not know, do you by any chance have contact information for Ron? 39:23 SM: No, I do not. See I know he is in LA. But yeah, and I thought Bobby Moeller would, but Bobby says he has lost touch with him. So, I do not know. The other group, groups would be the Mobe group. 39:37 JA: But the moment you know, the both of them and Dave and the Mobe works very closely together. I mean, they also just had disagreements in that summer, but, but, you know, Dave was organizing marches that we would go on the Grant Park one, we all got beat up during the day by, by the Chicago cops. That was a Mobe organized event that Rennie was, Ren-, that for, Rennie was hit over the head Stew had been hit over the head three days earlier before everything started or four days early before everything started. So put it this way we both knew of each other's presence. I am wondering, I tended to use the word respect, but there was also a fair bit of dissonance. 40:27 SM: The, the other movements, again, are just the movements, the American Indian Movement, the Women's Movement, the Environmental Movement. And- 40:36 JA: You take AIM right? Now, Bill Kunstler spent an awful lot, after you know, the Chicago Trial. The AIM people were some of his main clients. Bill always considered himself a yippie, always. Well not always, but ever since, ever since he met Abbie and Jerry. That is what he identified with. So, you know, so it really is, I do not think it is appropriate to talk about it as sort of this group and this group it is much more personalities, it is much more people, and people there was much more interpenetration. And both the dissent and support between these different, all these different groups. 41:23 SM: Yeah, I have, just to ̶ do the hippies want to be taken seriously? I had just had that as a question did the- 41:32 JA: Seriously? What does that mean? 41:35 SM: Yeah, that is what I am asking. Did the hippies want to be taken seriously? Because I know from talking to Paul, I asked him that same question. And it, because he, because his whole spiel is about linking serious issues with humor. 41:53 JA: Right. And he is right. 41:54 SM: And that is almost like the yippies is not it? It is almost kind of the same. They were dead serious about being involved. I am I cannot speak for you. But from perception that I see. The yippies were dead serious about being anti-war, but they want to be able to reach people through theatrics. And sometimes it was, may seem frivolous, but there was a message. 42:19 Exactly. No, that is exactly right. That is exactly right. The causes in which we believe that would end, was overwhelmingly ending the war. With a little bit of, you know, marijuana legalization coming along later. The causes in which we believed were deadly serious causes, but we felt that the best way to affect people through those was through dramatic theatrical fun. 42:45 SM: Let me turn my tape. 42:51 SM: Alright, here we go. This is something [inaudible] was when Abbie died. Just as a person who has always studied and read and cared about the people involved in the (19)60s, because I am part of it, too, in my own small way. Abbie's death touched me in some way. Because when I happened on the news, I heard about it that he, he lived over in Bucks County not far from where I live, and that he was alone in an apartment. And he committed suicide or OD-ed on drugs. And then there was a report that he had a note. Now Paul says he does not know of any note ever, he says that that is not true, that no one was listening to me anymore. But that that was in the news, and I am trying to find the article where it was written. But what, this is, my serious part of my interview is because there is some key people here that passed on way before their time. Abbie, Phil Ochs, and then Jerry got hit by a car in Los Angeles and your husband. He luckily Stew was able to live longer. But could, do you know any more of the circumstances surrounding Abbie? Were you at his funeral? 44:06 JA: Yeah, at least the West Coast was. My understanding of Abbie's death is that there may be some questions surrounding it. But that he did not leave a note. That I know for a fact he did not leave a note. He is, I noticed his eldest son, Andrew, and Andrew was, came out and his sister came down. As soon as they heard about the death and was not an apartment by the way. It was more like a there was a bunch of little houses on some land that this person owns. And they came down and the coroner, there was some issue with the coroner, back and forth; was it heart failure, was it this, was it, was it barbiturates, was it that? And so, there was a little bit of question as to exactly what the cause of death was. But there is no question he committed suicide. And there is no question that he did not leave a note. 45:13 SM: Were people shocked? Or would people say he was down? 45:18 JA: Well, you know, everyone, by then everyone knew about his manic depression. And certainly, everyone knew that the period underground had exacerbated the manic depressiveness. So, Stew, and I had left, saw him alive at this event to cover (19)68 plus twenty. He has been, Abbie had been in a car accident, so he was in pain in his foot. And he had essentially gone off lithium, because of, which was the drugs that were controlling this manic depression, because he hated being on lithium, and had been given Prozac by his doctor and his doctor, you know, everyone knows now the Prozac can cause or has a causal relationship with suicidal tendencies. So, you know, no one was there with him in those last days. But the, what was the actual progression of events was ̶ is not clear. But like I say, so there was some fuzziness about the cause of death. But there is no fuzziness about the fact that he actually did commit suicide and it was undoubtedly a result of manic-depressive disease. 46:30 SM: Now Phil died very young. And I remember there was a book that came out on him and I have it, a biography, but I did not know if his close links with the, I read a long time ago, I did not know his close links with the, the yippies, now the- 46:46 JA: Yeah, I remember in Chicago and in that, in (19)68, we were going, Phil and I would walk up and down the lines of National Guard. And I remember one National Guardsmen saying, I once paid like $10 or some, you know, some huge sum in those days to go to one of your concerts, I will never do that again. And Phil actually stops and talks with the guy and the guy, relax and changed his face from acid. And just in that conversation. 47:16 SM: I heard he committed suicide too. Is that true? 47:19 JA: That is true. Phil had actually come and visit Stew and I at that time, were living in the Catskills. Phil comes to visit us and stay for a few days, for a few days, he was not even able to go out of the cabin. And then he basically spent most of his time in a bar, but he had been in South Africa, and had been in some kind of, before that has been some kind of accident that had damaged his voice and his vocal cords, and he did not think he could ever sing again. Very depressed about that. And then also he put up this album of Elvis Presley songs that did not do very well. And he has gotten a lot of criticism. And so he was, you know, there were a lot of things going on in his life that made him unhappy in those days, you know, we did not know about counseling, know about pharmaceutical assistance, aid in manic depressive disease or depression. And so, you know, Phil, when he went to his sister’s house and hung himself in the bathroom with the shower curtains. 48:23 SM: Were you at his funeral too? 48:26 JA: I was certainly at a concert. I was, there was a memorial concert for him in New York that I went to. And I do not know if there was another funeral. He, I think, I do know he was still with us at Chile, you know, he and Stew and Jerry went to Chile together during the Allende period. And then they came back. And then they met up with Mr. Jara, the folk singer there who was later shot by the Pinochet regime. And then when they came back, they did a benefit concert for Chile. And I was at that and I, and I was also at another benefit concert around his death. I do not know if that was, you know? 49:07 SM: Where is Abbie buried? Is he buried? 49:12 Where is Abbie, I do not know if he has buried that is a good question. I do not know the answer. 49:15 SM: How about Phil? 49:17 JA: Now that I know. 49:18 SM: Now Jerry, I remember when he was killed while he was jaywalking. 49:23 JA: Well, he, he was, I would say he was for some reasons that I prefer not to disclose the practice. He walked across the street. And then someone apparently called out, Jerry walked back. So, he turned and at that point, was, was hit by the car. 49:46 SM: And, of course, I remember the newspapers saying, “the guy that broke the law was killed breaking the law.” 49:55 JA: Yeah, well, you know yippies always pretty myths even in death, sometimes they are bad, sometimes they are not. 50:04 SM: Well, and I guess Paul was the moderator of some of those debates if I am not correct. Corrected here, Jerry, and- 50:11 JA: The Yippie Yuppie. That could easily be, you know, I never saw one, I just heard about them. But- 50:17 SM: Now when Stew passed away, did you have a funeral there in Berkeley for him and did a lot of people come to it? 50:28 And that is where he is buried, if you go on his website www.stewalbert.com there is a photo of his funeral and we had a, we actually had a what we called Stew, what did we call it? Stew (20)06 tour, because we had a funeral for him in Portland, a memorial service in Berkeley, a memorial service in New York and the memorial service and in Boston. 51:04 SM: He had a lot of friends, 51:05 JA: He had a lot of friends. A lot of friends. 51:08 SM: Yeah, I have seen that website. That is a nice website. 51:14 JA: If you want to read what people said about him, not, it is all there on the website. 51:17 SM: Right. People's Park in (19)69. We all know that anybody who knows their history about the (19)60s and certainly what was happening in Berkeley, in your opinion, just a few words, what was it all about? And you are right on here, when you say that it gave Ronald Reagan, you know, something to build his career on? Because I had a chance to interview Ed Meese at his office. Yeah, I interviewed him. And you know, he was the man in charge of following, well he was in charge of the battle against the students on the Berkeley campus even back in (19)64. Yeah, because he was the, he was the district attorney, or the assistant district attorney for Alameda County back in (19)64, before Reagan ever knew him. And then when he heard that, about this young lawyer, then that is why he kind of linked them up with his administration later on in (19)69. What was that all about? 52:14 JA: Which People’s Park? 52:16 SM: Yeah, People’s Park, how important is it? 52:18 JA: Well, in some ways, it is very important. And that is because it shows that you can stand up, in this case, to the power of the university to create something beautiful for the people and what it, was it was a big community event, where people just decided, alright, this land that is essentially lying fallow should be turned into a park. I mean, what, what more benign thing can you then you think of that? But it was essentially a battle over private property. Because at that point, then the university said: No, you cannot do that. Whatever happens to this piece of land is something that we want to do, rather than what you want. And but the community would not let that happen until, of course, the University fenced it in, sent troops, gas, the gas, the entire city of Berkeley, and we fought that, but ultimately, the University took the land back. 53:18 SM: Yeah. But it is interesting, because when you study, the Ronald Reagan, who was governor of California, and I asked this to Ed Meese, that the two main issues that he built his career on in California was his battle against the students, which he said he was going to take on if he became governor, he was going to bring peace back to the universities, and then a battle against the welfare state. Those were the two issues that he wanted to, you know, to work on as governor. And- 53:50 JA: If you think about it, it is ultimately a battle over capitalism and private property. Both the welfare state and the People's Park battle. 54:01 SM: What were the feelings of the boomers, the students that you saw at Berkeley? Of course, a lot of the yippies were boomers. What were their thoughts on governor, Governor Reagan? 54:14 JA: Well, we hated him. He was the epitome of everything that we despise. I would have to, you know I have not thought about Reagan for years, you know, because mostly what happened when he became president and the terrible things that he did as president kind of eclipsed the terrible things that he did when he was governor. But Stew, I remember saying, Stew said that Reagan knew him by name. And so, it is a very specific anti-people, anti-student strategy that he was doing. I mean, it was right. That is exactly what they were trying to do. Talk about people with control issues, huh. 54:55 SM: Yeah. One of the, something that I did not know and reading on your website too. And we are going to get into some of the general questions here in a minute. But I found that Bernadine Dohrn’s son, Zayd Dohrn’s, play “Magic,” I guess, “Magic Form Farm” or something like that, “Form Farm?” I just want to read these quotes and then you respond to them. You say this in, this is what he was trying to do with this play: “How do kids raised in the shadow of the (19)60s keep the parts of the experiment that were healthy, which is idealism, the hope, the courage, while getting rid of the narcissism and the silliness that had the potential to undermine it.” And then the other quote here is some of the qualities that he talked about, that is Zayd Dohrn: “Counter-cultural values, do your own thing, dope, nudity, sexual experimentation had negative dysfunctional consequences for some, not all the kids that live there.” And then you had mentioned, what an inconvenient truth, this play was all about. Reaction? What is your overall reaction to the play? And did he get it right? 56:18 JA: Oh, he got his experience right. You know, here is the thing. This is what Stew and I both used to say often is that everyone has their own (19)60s. So, for a kid growing up and having a lot of experiences with the nudity, and drugs and so forth, that he, I gathered, he must have had or heard about from his friends, I cannot help but think that the way he portrayed it in the play, it was not a pleasant thing for him. And both, you know, that was his experiences does not mean that everything that every new experience that everyone ever had in the (19)60s was wrong. But but you know, kids have their boundaries. And I guess we did not, in those days, we did not recognize that because we were a little bit more than kids ourselves. So, we did not recognize that, I think that when you are bringing people, when you are bringing up young children, at least for some, it may not be the best thing to expose them to the overt sexuality that some people in the (19)60s were into, it is not a universal experience, it was Zayd’s experience. 57:25 SM: You know, one of the general questions I had for everyone has been the question of the boomer generation now, which is 74 to 78 million people of which 15 percent, or 5 to 15 percent, depending on who you are reading, were activists, and the activist part of the movement. So, most people of the group have responded based on the friends, of the boomer friends that they knew whether they were activists or non-activists, and that is, you know, how, have they been good parents? Have they been good grandparents now, in terms of raising their kids, number one, by sharing what it was like to be young then and trying to let them understand, try to understand what we were doing and why we were doing it? And, and, you know, just basically, the values that they, whether a lot of people criticize the following two generation as not being very activist oriented. And they did not follow in their parents’ footsteps in that area. Just your thoughts on, based on the people you have known who are boomers, and as they have gotten older now they are up to sixty-three years of age, the frontline boomers, and the frontline boomers are sixty-three, and the youngest ones are now forty-six. 58:46 JA: Let me answer in a couple of ways. First, in terms of childbearing, this is what I can tell you. Jessica, my daughter, my daughter, one of them wants to have kids. One of the reasons that she wants to have kids is because she considers her upbringing so idyllic and so supportive and so loving that she wants to recreate it for her own family. Now, we could not hide from her who we were, and we did not. We talked to her. You are, how do you talk to your kids about drugs. Well, excuse me, we had to talk to her specifically, because it is very clear that Stew and I had both smoked marijuana a lot and had advocated for it at certain point in our lives. You cannot be yippy and not. And we had a conversation with her, and we basically said to Jessica, we do not want you to smoke marijuana until you graduate from high school and guess what she did not do that. She now is a, an attorney, she is, in some ways. pretty mainstream. She has worked within the Democratic Party. She has worked in New York City and politics, but she also now works as an attorney, an employment discrimination attorney helping women basketball coaches and firefighters win multi-million-dollar verdicts against being wrongfully terminated by sexist institutions. So that, you know, it is, and all the kids, the (19)60s kids that I know, and there is a whole bunch of them, you can tell if they are (19)60s kids if they are born in the, in between the 1970s to the 1980s. These are a lot of children of (19)60s activists, they turned out really, really well. And I think that the reason for that is that all of us put our values into child rearing, the naked nude stuff aside, we all believe very much in you know, this is an old SDS club, and that people should not be involved in the decisions that affect their life. Not all of us felt that way about our children. And when we were in, as part of our child rearing, we would treat them with appropriate boundaries, not letting them do something that they would that would hurt themselves but letting them be a decision maker in what they wanted to do. Not, not controlling and not being neglectful. We let them, but we let them be decision makers in their lives as a specifically is a result of our (19)60s values. And I think we have produced a generation of absolutely fabulous and wonderful kids. 1:01:25 SM: Yeah, very good point. You know, it is interesting that we have a president now, President Obama's in the second year. And he is often criticized both ways. One, he shies away from the links to the (19)60s, he makes an effort to make sure he is not part of it. And yet his critics will say he is the reincarnation of it. Because he is as left as you can get. 1:01:51 JA: They do not know anything if you think Obama's a leftist. 1:01:55 SM: Yeah. Well, your thoughts on that? It is, this is a two part question your thoughts on Obama and then the criticism of him and then he shies away from it? And secondly, the criticism that is often leveled by the Newt Gingrich’s, the George Wills’, the John McCain’s, the Governor Huckabee’s of the world, that that period, the boomer generation, the (19)60s and (19)70s, I think they are referring to, is the reason why we have so many problems in this nation, with divorce, with the lack of respect for authority, with the rise of the what they call the -isms, the welfare state, which they put blame directly on the LBJ in many respects. And- 1:02:44 JA: Let me start with that one. But what, how could all the McCains, Gingriches, Glenn Becks, and all the right-wing attack dogs fail to remember, are the gains that were made from the (19)60s, it is, you know, they can ̶ they could not come up with their list of terrible things. But what about the things that we can take credit for, for example, the fact that there is a black middle class now comes directly out of the (19)60s, the fact that there is an environmental movement, and that pollution is being lowered. And those issues are really central around the world is a result of the (19)60s, the fact that corporations are being pressured to divest practices that are not socially responsible, is a result of the (19)60s. The fact that women have access, and are equally, an, are in law school in more numbers than men are in business, although not as much, are doctors. That is all the results of the (19)60s, the fact that people are thinking about eating local food and eating responsibly, it is a result of the 60s there. The other aspects of the environmental movement that are all a result of the (19)60s. It is amazing how the right wing tends to forget the advances that came out of my generation while focusing on the, what they consider to be the negative. 1:04:07 SM: Well, it is interesting in this is kind of sad, when they start talking about the environmental movement, they say well, that they use that as a negative, because the environmental movement is all negative because it takes jobs away from people. As someone said to me, “you are more interested in saving an owl than you are saving jobs.” I mean, those kinds of things. And then they will say that, that Al Gore Look at him. He writes his book and now they are all being questioned whether, there has been some questioning whether they are, they have their facts straight, and he is making all these millions flying in an airplane and he is ̶ so there is they find ways to still be critical, even of the environmental movement ̶ 1:04:48 JA: Right. Well, if it is not in the service of the naked pursuit of greed, they do not like it. Reason and individualism. Individualism, that is, is only for fun not for myself. It is only for oneself. It is selfishness and greed. If it is not selfish, if it is not greedy then they do not like it. 1:05:10 SM: In your view, when did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end? 1:05:14 JA: I think it began with the civil rights movement, the early days of the civil rights movement, although you could even get earlier than that was a nuclear disarmament movement. So, I would say the late (19)50s and early (19)60s were we when, when the (19)60s began, and they ended? I do not know maybe the end of the (19)70s. Middle, mid to end of the (19)70s. 1:05:38 SM: Was there a watershed moment, in your view? 1:05:41 JA: In the (19)60s? 1:05:42 SM: Yes. 1:05:44 JA: Well, there were a number, it was like a, like a cascade. You know, starting with the gulf. I mean, to me, the, the watershed of the (19)60s was the Vietnam War. And so, whether you can point to what particular moment in the Vietnam War, the escalation to Gulf, the Gulf of Tonkin, the escalations, the, the switch, the switch from ground troops to bombings, all the various phases of that war. Those were all in some ways, watersheds and they built on each other, in my opinion. 1:06:18 SM: I have a question on healing, one of the two questions that they are going to be healing and trust. The first one is on healing. I took a group of students in the mid (19)90s, to Washington to meet Senator Muskie. Students, none of them were born in the 60s and this was all new to them. They were studying this period. They feared that we were close to a second American Revolution or a second Civil War with all the divisions that they had been seeing it was epitomized, but what they saw in Chicago in (19)68, the question they want to ask Senator Muskie, because he was there as the vice presidential Democratic candidate, is: due to the divisions that were tearing the nation apart, at that time, the divisions between, between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who are for the war, those who are against the war, those who supported the troops, those who did not. Do you feel that, that this generation, the boomer generation born between 1946 and 1964, as they age and start passing away, will go to their graves, not feeling like they have healed from all the divisions from that era, comparable to what happened in the Civil War when they went to their grave, mostly with a lack of healing. I will tell you what he said, what Senator Muskie said, but how would you respond to that? 1:07:43 JA: Well, see, for me, the concept of healing, personally, does not apply. I never, it was never a wound, the (19)60s were never, oh, the late (19)60s were never a wound, but they were the best time of my life. I do not want to heal from the best time of my life, I do not feel that there is a need. Now, you heal from a wound, you heal from death, I have not yet fully healed from Stew's death, and certainly any people who lost their lives and their families, the lives of the people whose families, the families whose children lost their lives in the war. They, that, that is a feeling that may have been helped by the wall or may not. But remember, you have a situation there were the people who got, the young men and women who went to Vietnam were drafted. It was not voluntary. It was not choice. And, you know, and, and the things that caused the war, the fact that, you know, government is, imperial governments going in invading other countries, that still goes on, say, obviously, in Iraq and Afghanistan, so I do not I do not accept that paradigm that this country was broken in needed healing. What, what I, what I do feel is that there were terrible, terrible things going on in the country, which the only way to have them stop was to take action, which is what we did, which is what soldiers in Vietnam did. And the healing that needs to happen is the healing from those who died. beyond that. I do not see the need. And you know, I look at the Tea Party today. They are certainly not promoting anything like healing they are still, you know, fighting back culture war. 1:09:42 SM: Yeah. When Senator Muskie when he, we waited for his response. He waited about a minute and he finally said, he did not even respond to 1968. He said, we have not healed since the Civil War. We were fighting for the issue of race and, and he said, talking about the 430,000 men who had died in that war, almost the entire South lost all their men. And so, he, that is what he said was the issue was, we have not healed since then he did not even refer to (19)68. 1:10:13 JA: Well, you know, this is a country that goes to war. And in some way slides on what, what you may recall, does an Eisenhower warning us about the military industrial complex. That is what, if anything needs to be healed, it is the contradictions of capitalism, and that have produced this kind of society. So healing, like I said, the healing metaphor does not work for me in terms of the whole country, I think people need to be healed from their ̶ from the individual traumas that what they went through, caused by, you know, being forced to fight in a war that they did not support, or did not believe in, the deaths that happened, that is where healing needs to- 1:11:03 SM: Yeah in fact one person said to me: Steve, if you, you specified and this question better by saying that, why do not you just simply say those who were for the war and those who went to war, then you get into what Jan Scruggs did in his book “To Heal a Nation” that the wall was built to not only heal the families and of those who died in the war, but then to heal the nation from those who were against the war and for the war. So, the people said they might be able to answer that question better if it was just those two groups. And I think what I was really getting at was, I wonder how many, it could be yippies, it could be SDS-ers, or it can be Mobe people, it could be anybody who was against the war. I wonder how many of them have gone to that wall, as they have gotten older with their kids. And they look at that wall, and they reflect what they did. And whether any of them are saying, maybe I should have served or, you know, I just do not know how they are feeling. That is what I think I was really getting at. 1:12:05 JA: Well, I, you know, Stew and I went to the wall, and he actually helped Sandy, whatever her last name was, Boreal, I think in her, I think she was a fundraiser for it or something like that. I do not think that, that was not our experience, was not my sort of service. If anything, the experience was, we served well, we serve too. We served in opposing the war. My recollection is that we, we, we often identified very much with the vets, because we both felt that we served our country. We served our country in the way we best knew how, by trying to bring in and to an immoral, illegal war that was killing, that killed 54,000 young Americans. 1:13:02 SM: The, the other issue is trust. A quality that I perceive is a very well, it is a quality within the boomer generation. And of course, how can you say, Steve that 70 million people know of trust? Well, I am not saying that everybody does not trust but the question is, the young people of that era saw so many leaders lie to them, throughout their lifetime. Whether it be President Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin, McNamara and those figures that he used to use of people killed in Vietnam, you have the Watergate with Richard Nixon. There is there is some questions with everyone from Eisenhower all the way up to even President Reagan, there was, whether you could trust any of them. And correct me if I am wrong, and I have lived in this era too, most people at that time, did not trust anybody in positions of leaders or responsibility, whether they be a university president, a Congressman, a senator, a President of United States, a rabbi, a minister, a corporate leader, they do not trust any of them because they were leaders. Am I correct in that? 1:14:10 JA: Well, you know, Free Speech has a slogan, “do not trust anyone over thirty.” 1:14:15 SM: Right. That was Jeff Weinberg. 1:14:20 Ja: I do not think they did not trust because they were leaders. They did not, people did not trust because people lied. Like that, like, like that guy yelled out, Obama, “You lie.” Well, that is what we were yelling. We were yelling, “you lied.” “You lied.” And I think that the trust still does not exist today. Because guess what, people continue to lie. But at same time, we have a right-wing attack machine that creates its own level of lies. And for some reason, they are considered, those, the right-wing lies are considered truth and believable, whereas someone like Obama, who in fact is going pretty much the way it is, is not lying. So, I think that trust, yeah, sure, trust is a huge issue. But I do not think it is simply not trusting leaders. I think it is, it is, goes in some ways deeper than that. 1:15:15 SM: Yeah, because it was Jack Weinberg who's, if I am not mistaken, said, ”do not trust anyone over 30.” 1:15:22 JA: Exactly. As we got older we kept changing it to “do not trust anyone over-“ 1:15:26 SM: Yeah, I hear you. Ruben changed it to forty I think, something like that. 1:15:30 JA: That is the one problem with that slogan. 1:15:32 SM: Yeah. And then he said, kill your parents too. And, and this is something you mentioned this, which I think is great. And I think I want to make sure I got this correct, too. And I will, Jack and Jerry, were right, in your opinion, to change the system is, is completely reinvent, was a goal to completely reinvent ourselves. We had to break from the repressive warmongering, right-wing dysfunctional values of our parent’s generation, which was the group that came back from forty-six to sixty. So, is that basically say it all there? 1:16:07 JA: Yeah. Yeah, we did. We had to break, we had to break with that. And create something that was, we believe was new and alternative. And we did. 1:16:17 SM: In your view, you lived in Canada, but what was it about the 1950’s, or the post war era that (19)46 when President Kennedy came in, what was it about that era then made the (19)60s? 1:16:31 JA: Well, remember every ̶ the dominant American culture in the (19)60s was sort of like the TV show Mad Men, was very repressive in almost every way, and anything that was, that was in any way dissonant, whether it was being gay, or being, wanting to do something, a woman wanted to do something with their life, anything that did not fit into the dominant mold of a father goes to work, you know, Father Knows Best, mother does this. Anything that did not fit has to be, had to be hidden. And so, then people, when, that was really, there was the breaking out of that. Those strictures, the breaking out from those repressive molds that actually really started the (19)60s, whether it was the beats, or jazz music, or whatever, all the various ways of creating an alternate counter-culture that were there in the society in the (19)50s, but were hidden, gradually, for whatever reasons, and I am not a historian broke out, broke their way through and then and then people once empowered, made an entire alternate environment. That is the second model. And growing up in Canada, it was like, that is exactly what it was, in Toronto in those days was repressive, 1950s model. 1:17:55 SM: Do you feel the 1980s was a, an effort to return to the 1950’s? Yeah, when Reagan came in, do you think that eight-year period and then George Bush that followed that twelve-year period was an effort to bring, to say goodbye to that the (19)60s and the (19)70s? And go back to the (19)50s? 1:18:15 SM: Well, you know, it interests me enormously, that in that period that the right-wing Think Tanks got themselves together and decided that they had to have, I am not saying conspiratorially, but culturally decided that they had to have a strategy to combat what they call the excesses of the (19)60s. One of the reasons I think that we are in such doo doo today and the right is able to exert the power that it is, that it has, is because well, we were sort of figuring out: Well, what do we do next? The right path strategy, raised money, always was backed by money, had think tanks, recruited people and was able to develop itself into a dominant cultural force, with a, you know, national broadcast network, that is very hard for the more diverse Democrats to counter. 1:19:13 SM: Do you feel that is what is happening now with respect to when George Bush the second came in, and then of course, this first year and a half of President Obama, he is having a very hard time. Is this again, like the 1980s again? I mean, with these groups, kind of attacking that whole era, and the progress made and trying to bring that back to a conservative America? 1:19:38 JA: Well, I think they are, but I do not necessarily think that they are going to succeed. I mean, remember, Obama was, was elected on a gigantic majority vote. The vision that he put forward for America was a pretty progressive, liberal vision. Now for whatever reasons, he has not been able to implement that a lot of that has to do I think with the, with the power that the right-wing has amassed over these last thirty years. So, I do not look at this the (19)80s as a defining decade, I look at what happened in that, in the period after the (19)60s of the social forces that really helps define where we are at the present more than just the simple, simple decades. I mean, what do I remember the (19)80s? Disco? I mean ̶ 1:20:25 SM: Well actually disco started in (19)76. So, some people think it might have just been going downhill ever since. 1:20:30 JA: Oh, yeah. Well, I was not impressed by the (19)80s at all. 1:20:36 SM: Couple, a quote here, “despite all the,” this is from you, “despite all the humane positive progressive values we passed on to our children. Our 1960s activism also gave them difficult stuff to work through and resent, rebel against.” And then you say this maybe, this is maybe the moment when our (19)60s gen. or generation chickens are coming home to roost in their own right. explain that a little further. 1:21:08 JA: You know I, is that in the Zayd Dohrn piece? 1:21:12 SM: I think so. 1:21:13 JA: Yeah, I, I guess this was just what I was doing there. I am in it, because I do not remember it very well, as you know, because I wrote it a while a while ago. But I think what I was what Zayd was reacting to were some of the excesses that he either witnessed or heard about. And it is certainly true, that Weatherman was one of the more extreme, if not the most extreme organization in my generation. And so that is probably what I meant about coming home, coming home to roost is the ultra-extremists, who raised children, then the children really in their own right to have to look at their parents and their parent’s activities with their own critical eye. And I think that ̶ that is what Zayd was reacting to, but you have got to understand, overall, someone like Zayd is very supportive of, and the play that I was writing about, is very supportive of things, things that happened in the (19)60s and the reasons the (19)60s people, like, his parents did what they did. It is just also that that, you know, people can go before, and I think that that is one of the one of the issues with Zayd. You know, if you, there is a book that was written by Thai Jones, and it is called a “Radical Line,” and his parents also were in the Weather Underground and it is interesting the way he approaches it. But the, how do you, how do children of the extreme (19)60s parents make, come to terms with what their parents did. And, again, it is one of those things where, overall, the reasons that people were fighting the experiments, fighting against the war, the experimentalism of LSD, and the counterculture, that was something that made it really the best time of our lives. And, and our children, I think they may be critical of us for, you know, going as far as we did, but they also appreciate and honor the reasons that we did it. 1:23:32 SM: Let me change my tape. Philadelphia, just outside about 35 miles from downtown Philly. When you look at the, do you like the term, the boomer generation? I have had different responses to that. And ̶ 1:23:51 JA: No, I do not like it. I never actually identified ̶ 1:23:54 SM: Would you call the generation born between (19)46, there might be a better term, whether we call the Vietnam generation, the Woodstock generation, the protest generation, how would you? What would be the perfect term for it? If it is not the boomers? 1:24:09 JA: I like, I like to protest generation. That is cool. 1:24:13 SM: So that is good, because that is, that is one of the one I was mentioning. Could you give me I do not expect you to tell me everything about Chicago, but just in your own words, what it was like as a person to be there. 1:24:27 JA: It was empowering. 1:24:28 SM: Yeah, just for me. Yes. Tell me for just a couple minutes here, what it was like to be in Chicago in 1968. 1:24:37 JA: It was an enormously empowering experience. And it is what I remember running and I am talking now, but in the, being in the middle of the riots, because there was a lot of other things going on as well. But I remember being in the park after permits had been denied and we have we had come up with a strategy. If we are going to leave, we will leave the mark. But we will leave slowly turning around. And looking behind me and seeing giant light. In front of which were, you can see swirls of tear gas and a line of cops marching toward us with, it looks like bayonets or guns. And it turned out and just looking at that and saying to myself, wow, what are they doing to us, and just, you know, running through the park running through the tear gas. Yet, I do not remember feeling afraid I as I say, I remember feeling enormous power that somehow, we had just to exercise our, you know, we wanted to sleep in the park and protests just to do that the, that the powers that be and the daily machine felt it necessary to call out these enormous forces. And I remember running by seeing Alan Ginsberg. In the park he was sitting in, in the circle with his acolytes and his friends and they were coming. And I could start to smell the tear gas coming behind me. And I said to myself, he is not going to stay there very long. And lo and behold, very soon, Allen also was running through the park, so the police totally, and Mayor Daley, totally, absolutely overreacted to us. And really a cause the police riot that interfered that did not allow us to simply peacefully protest our opposition to the war and to the conventions. I think in some ways that sets the standard for police brutalizing protesters from then on. And so, so and then you know, what, what would happen is we would run through the park we get, we inhaled the tear gas, and then Stew and I would go home and watch yourself on TV and make love. It was a wonderful time. 1:27:01 SM: He, one of the, one of the things that I think people do not realize that it was the Festival of Light, which was the term that was used by the yippies. That really, the, the hippies were more responsible for getting the people there than SDS because was not ̶ there was something about SDS did not want to be there in the beginning or so- 1:27:20 JA: Oh yeah, a lot of the major organizations did not want to be there. SDS was one, the Motherfuckers, who were the street fighting group from New York City was another because they, they felt you know, and perhaps rightly, that, there would be a bloodbath. But we felt that it was important enough to demonstrate to the delegates, that the war has to stop, and that they should not elect a pro-war, a pro-war candidate that we would go no matter what. And also, you know, there was, I always felt, and I guess, what Stew would call a naive optimist, but I always felt that they would give in that they would see the rightness of our way, of our ways. So- 1:28:07 SM: How many people were there? Were students ̶ 1:28:10 JA: Between five and 15,000 at the most ̶ 1:28:13 SM: Because I have read reports there were like 50,000 people there. 1:28:18 JA: No, fifteen, we were predicting, you know, 500 to half a million. 1:28:28 SM: And then once you, once everybody was there, that is where the organization leaders met for planning like Tom Hayden and Randy Davis and Dave Dellinger and that group ̶ 1:28:39 JA: In the park? Well, there were all kinds of places people met in the park, they met in church basements, they met in the, the yippies would meet in the offices of the BB the underground newspaper, but most of the most of our time was actually spent in the park. 1:28:53 SM: And how did Stew get not, he was the unindicted What do you call it? 1:28:59 JA: Herder? Yeah. 1:28:59 SM: How come? How did he luck out? 1:29:03 JA: He was a journalist. They did not want to indict him because he always would say he was there reporting for the Barb which indeed he was. He always said by the way that I should have been indicted. 1:29:18 SM: Oh, really? Yeah. Actually, that might have been a sexist indictment because there were no females. 1:29:24 JA: If you look and see the other side, there are some women among the unindicted co-conspirators, but there is no women as either. 1:29:31 SM: Wow. Can you talk about your feelings when certain movement groups went violent? I know you have made some reference already to the SDS and the Weathermen and so forth. And you know, Gary Rubin in his book, “Do It,” which I read in during my graduate school summer. I always, I always liked that term, “do it,” because in my graduate test, we were always taught that people who stand up for their beliefs they have integrity because they know who they are. And they can take criticism. I remember I put Jerry Rubin in my master's thesis, because actually, you know, he could take it. He could stand up and he did it he could take it too. But how do you go from “do it,” which is basically making it happen to Malcolm's “by any means necessary,” which imply guns and violence. And I use these examples. We already talked about SDS to the weathermen. But the American Indian Movement was started out at Alcatraz ended up at Wounded Knee with violence, you get the Black Panthers with their guns. You have got some protesters on university campuses at Cornell with guns at (19)69, you had the Young Lords looked up to the Black Panthers in the Chicano movement, and they did the very same thing. And even in years later, and this has been critical within the gay and lesbian movement, the violence that took place in San Francisco in the 1970s after, or when, when Dan White got out of jail, I mean, there was massive violence. And some people are still paying the price from that. Just your thoughts on movements, and violence. 1:31:12 JA: You know, you have lumped together a lot of things that I do not need, think to be lumped together. For example, the case of the Panthers, the Panthers have been brutalized, folks in communities, other black communities have been brutalized by police for years, and years and years. And so, after a while, and I think Malcolm X, says this, and Frantz Fanon certainly is that they began to see themselves as a colonized people within the United States, and the only way to respond to being colonized is to adopt the violence of the oppressor. But you cannot take it out of the context of being oppressed. In the case of a Weatherman, you know, there have been marches and marches and demonstrations and marches and marches and demonstrations. And the war, the Vietnam War still went on there, let us be absolutely clear Weatherman, in its so-called violence, or what today might be called domestic terrorism never killed or targeted individual. Right, they blew up bathrooms, they blew up police stations, but they did not kill or target individuals. So, you have to when you talk about violence, you really ̶ I think have to define your terms and what you mean. And you also have to look at the context in which the reactive violence in terms of self-defense, which is the way it came, which is the way people were thinking, you have to look at the context and violence and, and, and resisting through self-defense as being very different than violence as a general overall category. I mean, here is an example. Right? The, the Tea Partiers are saying, Well, you know, we are going to resist, we are going to violently resist if we have to, the healthcare. Well excuse me, any violence that say Weathermen property damage, let us be clear, that Weathermen did was in response to children being napalmed and burned alive in Vietnam, the Tea Parties, the Tea Partiers are, are worried about children's getting with pre-existing conditions getting access to health care. I mean, you know, that is bizarre, that kind of violence is bizarre, I can understand people being driven to defend themselves in response to violence perpetrated against them. 1:33:50 SM: And so, this connection that we have been seeing, since President Obama ran for president, his friend, Bill Ayers, you know that he is a friend of a terrorist, that kind of, yeah. And I want, we all know, he is a great educator, anybody who is, who is aware of higher education, which I am and the ̶ Bill Ayer, I know how good he is and what he has written and, and how he was changed and a whole lot of other things. But, but still the, you see those generalizations out there? 1:34:21 JA: Right, well that is what I am talking about what I was talking about earlier about the power of the right to define the message, that is thirty years defining and refining their message and broadcasting it through talk radio and Fox News. So, they have an advantage and that is why people believe it. And even you know you, even if you read it filters, it filters into the mainstream, it filters into the New York Times. It filters into liberals and it sort of defines and rules the entire discourse for the right. 1:34:53 SM: When you look at the boomer generation as a whole and of course, 85 percent were probably not involved in any kind of activism, but I have always been on the belief that they were subconsciously affected by everything that happened. You could not be if you were alive and could not you have to be living in a cave someplace if you were not affected by someone, but it, could you give them strengths and weaknesses of the personalities that you knew of the people that were the boomer generation. Even if it means just those that were involved because someone was that told me I cannot define 78 million people. But ̶ 1:35:31 JA: Well exactly, you know, I absolutely agree with that comment. I think I noticed that one of your questions was “please with the quality admire least in boomers.” And I go back to something I said earlier was that the naked pursuit of greed, the ultra-individualism? I think that those that is the qualities that I think are part of the boomer generation, I do not however, attribute that to the (19)60s. Yeah, you know, I am just wondering, it is almost quarter to five and much longer we are going to be. 1:36:10 SM: Oh, that is right, I did not even look at the clock. fifteen more minutes. Is that okay? 1:36:14 JA: All right. You are wearing me out here. But okay. 1:36:17 SM: I am almost, I am not going to ask you those names of all those personalities. I am not going to ask that. So, I have been cutting that off quite a bit lately, because I like the other answers. What were you responding to, again? 1:36:33 JA: The negative qualities of ̶ 1:36:34 SM: Oh, yeah, there any ̶ 1:36:38 JA: And also, in the (19)70s, you know, you had a bunch of these self-help movements and the extremes there, there was an enormous amount of self-involvement. movements like EST and things like, Well, I think it is very good for people to discover things about themselves, and what motivates them, if you can get to be extraordinarily self-involved and lose a sense of altruism that I think is an important part of life and being a good person. 1:37:06 SM: You co-wrote the Sixties Papers, which I think it is a great book. And I had, I have had this for a long time I got a really, I have had it for over twenty years. But what was your goal with this book project? And what were the final conclusions? 1:37:25 JA: Yeah, I as I told you, I have a PhD in sociology. And at the time, I was in school, I was teaching I think it was at Mills College, I was taking courses on the (19)60s, there was no textbook, I wanted people to be able to read the original sources to, so they could get a sense of what things were like, were over. And that book did not exist. And so, we, Stew and I, we filled a niche by writing it. 1:37:53 SM: The other thing you wrote a book on the conspiracy trial, which I do not have was that about the Chicago Eight? 1:37:59 JA: what it was, what it was, I was, for a while the office manager at the conspiracy trial. And what it was is an edited version of the trial transcripts. So, it was actually almost it is almost the entire file transcript, probably is the entire trial transcript. And that is what it is. I mean, there were a number of books that came out that portions of it later, but this was this was this one was the entire trial transcript. 1:38:23 SM: What year did that come out? 1:38:26 JA: Okay, hold on. I will go take a look. I am sure it is out of print now. 1:38:32 SM: Right. Was this a big book that had a black cover on it with? Well then, I do have it. 1:38:50 JA: Well, there you go it was 1970. 1:38:52 SM: Yeah, I do have it then. Because I have so many books. Oh, what was the Open Seven? 1:38:58 JA: The Open Seven were, seven young men here in the Bay Area who were involved. I believe in this in this demonstration stuff, the draft week. And I you know; I have written about it. And I do not have it at the top of my brain at the moment. But I think that General Hershey was, they were sort of facing off against General Hershey. And they were trying to get they were trying to organize the national demonstration, national stuff, the draft week, but then it there was this more, it was just a very big demonstration here in Berkeley. And I believe that they were trying to stop group training from the demonstration was attacked by the Hells Angels. And there is a lot of fighting ̶ 1:39:44 SM: Yeah, because you have a view of a page on Steve Hamilton. 1:39:48 JA: Right. And so that and that would be where the Open Seven stuff would because he was one of them. 1:39:52 SM: Right. And he just recently passed away. What, I have three slogans here and I have asked this question to everybody. slogans that I think really symbolize the (19)60s and (19)70s, or the ̶ when boomers were young. Some people have mentioned one or two other ones and I mentioned those as well. The first one is, obviously Malcolm X’s “by any means necessary,” symbolizing a more radical approach may be a more violent approach depending on who you are talking to. The second one is the quote that from Bobby Kennedy, that was the Henry David Thoreau quote, “some men see things as they are an ask why I see things that never were and ask, why not,” which is really symbolizing the activist believing in justice, the against the war in Vietnam, that kind of an attitude. And the third one was more of a hippie kind of a mentality, which was the mentality of the Peter Max posters that came out in the early (19)70s. The slogan, “you do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful,” which was kind of a hippie mentality. And the fourth one that people have mentioned to me was the civil rights one, “we shall overcome.” Are there any quotes that you feel really are symbolic of the (19)60s and (19)70s that really are symbolic of the boomers when they were young? 1:41:17 JA: According to Eldridge, “you were either part of the solution or part of the problem.” There was, “hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?” “Peace Now” was a very big deal. I think the famous hippie slogan was “rise up and abandon the creeping meatball.” Never really caught on. You know, the women's movement. I think “freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose” was very key, you know, from that from the Janis Joplin song was very key to our mentality. 1:41:59 SM: Yeah, and of course, the those are all great, though. None of those have come up before it all my interviews. And the other one was John Kennedy, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country,” which was another important one, and then the “tune in, turn on, drop out” by Leary? When you think of ̶ 1:42:18 JA: Turn on, it is actually “turn on tune in, drop out.” 1:42:21 SM: Right. When you look, when you think of the pictures of that era, because pictures are supposed to say 1000, more than 1000 words. What are the pictures that come to your mind? If someone had not read any textbooks, and they are looking at books, if you were looking at, I would say the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s, the pictures that may have been on front covers of magazines or in books, newspapers. 1:42:46 JA: Well, I think you know, the one that is the most is the guy pointing a gun at the head of the Vietnamese and shooting him. And then, and the napalm young naked Vietnamese. Girl running? Those are two that really stick in my mind. Certainly, the pictures of Chicago, or you know, the, the police beating people in the dark. 1:43:21 SM: There is the picture of the three athletes to the (19)68 Olympics too which was a big one. 1:43:27 JA: Now that yeah, that exact, that was certainly the whole bunch of the panda ̶ the picture of the Huey Newton poster with the bullet hole in the wall and the glass. 1:43:41 SM: There was the poster of him that said, “Free Huey,” I remember that one. 1:43:45 JA: He was sitting in the, actually Huey was suppose sitting in a chair. One of those wicker chairs. 1:43:55 SM: The other one was ̶ 1:43:56 JA: There is a great picture of Stew and Jerry with the pig in front of the Chicago statue in in Chicago that you know, I do not it is probably not that well known but pretty iconic to me ̶ 1:44:07 SM: Is that on a magazine? 1:44:10 JA: It is an Avedon. It is a Richard Avedon picture. 1:44:12 SM: Oh, wow. I did not see the ̶ 1:44:14 JA: There is a Richard Avedon book, there is book called The Sixties, a big art book and you should look at that. And also, there is all the Emory, Emory Douglass’ cartoon from the Panther paper and Emory has a book out of cartoons or you know, another art book size books and there is a ton in there, you know, his cartoons of pigs with flies flying around them. 1:44:42 SM: Yeah, the other the other picture was the girl over the body at Kent State which is Mary Becky over Jeff Miller. Real quick question on the music. You know, Phil Ochs was very important. Paul mentioned something to me when I asked him what happened to Phil, he said he was in some sort of pain. He did not go in any detail. But he did say that Phil was a little sensitive that he did not become as big as Bob Dylan or, he did not become, you know, Was there some sort of sensitivity there? 1:45:15 JA: Yeah, Phil always felt that, you know if Dylan had not been around, Phil would have been at the top of the top. 1:45:22 SM: Of all the musicians that the yippies really, I am talking about the yippies now, you and Stew and and your peers, what were the musicians that you most admired. Music that you like the best that especially the ones that had the greatest words to their music. 1:45:39 JA: I would say Dylan, Dylan and Phil were definitely there. There, Cohen was there. Joan Baez was there. Carole King was there, Janis of course. The Stones, The Beatles, Creedence Clearwater, 1:45:58 SM: Right. When you think when the, the best books are written on the boomer generation, (19)60s, they got to talk about the (19)60s and (19)70s. What do you think historians and sociologists will say? Well, what are they going to write about this period when the last Boomer has passed away? 1:46:21 JA: Well, you know, you have that question on, you know, the big questions that you sent me and I looked at and I thought about it, and I said, you know, I am not a prophet. I cannot predict the future. I do not really know. I know what I would like them to say, but I, who knows what they actually will say so I think I am going to decline to answer that question. 1:46:42 SM: Alright. Can you in your own words, because you have to see, have had met a lot of people in your life, a lot of major people, first impressions are usually lasting. Now I think when you first met Stew that was lasting was not it? I am just, you do not have to go into any length here. But what was your first feeling when you met these people for the first time? Allen Ginsburg? 1:47:13 JA: He ignored me because I was a woman. He was not interested. You cannot blame them. 1:47:20 SM: Yeah, Tom Hayden. 1:47:26 JA: Tom was a very warm, warm hearted Irishman who just did not get the yippies. 1:47:34 SM: Timothy Leary. 1:47:38 JA: He stank. 1:47:42 SM: How about Jack Weinberg and Mario Savio? 1:47:46 JA: Mario I did not meet until later he always seemed like a very sweet guy. And Jack is the same, both of them, you know, Mario is gone. But Jack is here. So, I you know, my first impression is they are sweet guys. But I did not meet them till the (19)80s or so. 1:47:59 SM: How about Jerry Rubin? 1:48:02 JA: Interesting, exciting. Terrible dresser. 1:48:06 SM: Abbie Hoffman. 1:48:07 JA: [inaudible] clothes. Performance, intense performance. Handsome, attractive, charismatic, Jerry was charismatic too. But Abbie had a certain kind of charisma about him. 1:48:22 SM: How about Paul Krasner? 1:48:29 JA: Sweet baby face. Smart ̶ 1:48:31 SM: Phil Ochs ̶ 1:48:33 JA: Kind of sad. Kind of sad. 1:48:37 SM: William Kunstler. 1:48:40 JA: Bill was, Bill was terrific. Very flamboyant, very smart. The first time I met him he came down to the cellar at Liberty house and tried to evict us but then he changed his mind and we all smoked dope together. I got to know Bill really well. Also, handsome. Very handsome, man. 1:48:57 SM: Rennie Davis? 1:49:00 JA: Intense and intense, dedicated. And having that kind of old American, what is the word? I am, very old American. I will leave it as that. 1:49:23 SM: How about Bobby Seale? 1:49:25 JA: Funny. Charismatic, warm and with the ability to talk. I mean, if he is, if it been today, he would be a rapper. 1:49:39 SM: Eldridge and Kathleen Cleaver. 1:49:41 JA: Eldridge was smart. Very intense. I am writing stuff about Eldridge and it will be on my website in a while. But he was smart, very intense, very persuasive. And with a very kooky kind of sense of humor. Kathleen was absolutely gorgeous like, looked like a model also extremely smart. And very also with a really kooky sense of humor and a nice belly laugh. 1:50:15 SM: I am actually interviewing her in the summer. She is finished. She is writing her book. She said the end of, mid-summer, she has done with her book. But so did you meet John Lennon because I know Stew did. 1:50:26 JA: No, I never did. I was doing something else at the time. 1:50:29 SM: Benjamin Spock. 1:50:32 JA: Never met him. 1:50:33 SM: Bergen brothers. 1:50:34 JA: Never met them. 1:50:35 SM: Howard Zinn. 1:50:36 JA: Never met him. 1:50:37 SM: Dave Dowager. 1:50:39 JA: Dave was a much beloved, kindly person who was very committed to his passive nonviolent civil disobedience. 1:50:50 SM: How about Malcolm Boyd? 1:50:52 JA: Never met him. 1:50:53 SM: Harvey Milk. 1:50:55 JA: Never met him. 1:50:56 SM: Jane Fonda. 1:50:57 JA: I like Jane, Jane was, you know, she was not your usual Hollywood type of person. She really was committed to the things that she believed in was willing to move ahead on them. 1:51:11 SM: I think it is Peter Coyote. 1:51:14 JA: Ah, I do not know. I mean, he was more, by the time I met him, he was more into the Hollywood superstar thing. 1:51:26 SM: Angela Davis. 1:51:30 JA: I do not know that I ever met her. She at one point. Kathleen was visiting my house in Toronto, Canada and FBI being racist, confused Angela with Kathleen. Kathleen with Angela. But I do not think I actually ever met her. 1:51:52 SM: And I only got two more questions, and I am done here. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? And what kind of impact did Kent State and Jackson State have on you? 1:52:05 JA: Well, the Vietnam Memorial, I think was, I believe now I did not at the time when I visited. But now that Stew’s dead I have a much better and more heartfelt understanding of why it is important to have a living memorial that we can go and actually commune with the dead person. I did not understand that, you know, I had not had experience with death. I did not understand that at the time it was still, and at the time that I visited, but I certainly do now. So, what it means to me is that it is a place where you can go and visit your ghost, you know, and the ghosts are always with you. And you need to have a place to be able to go and, and visit with them. And what was the second? 1:52:52 SM: Kent State, what did the Kent State and Jackson State killings in 1970. What ̶ 1:53:00 JA: I remember being on television, being interviewed on TV show shortly after Kent State. And it was that was occurred shortly after I had come back from Vietnam. And I remember saying to the audience, something to the effect of the Vietnamese people are very sorry for your loss and extend their sympathies to you. And that was kind of a shock. I say to everyone, but it is true. The Vietnamese people, the people that I met anyway, were very sad. When anyone got killed as a result of the war 1:53:45 SM: Where were you when John Kennedy was killed? You remember? 1:53:49 JA: I was married to my first husband living on the top floor of a house in Toronto. 1:53:57 SM: Were you watching TV or ̶ 1:53:59 JA: We did not have a TV. I heard it on the radio. 1:54:02 SM: And how about where were you when you heard Martin Luther King was killed. 1:54:07 JA: Well, I do not know. I do not remember where I was when I heard he was killed. But I do remember that that evening Eldridge and Stew and I spent that evening together. 1:54:20 SM: Oh, you were with Eldridge. Oh, wow. 1:54:23 JA: I think Eldridge needed to hide out because there were all kinds of everything was going up in flames. And he did not know he was on parole, and he did not want to be in a position where he was caught, of course like six days later, or he was caught with Bobby so it was irrelevant but- 1:54:39 SM: Yeah, Bobby Kennedy gave that unbelievable speech in Indianapolis that night. Of course, then he died two months later. So, I am going to end like, I, I was talking to you about the people when you met them for the first-time people that you liked, I just like your thoughts on the personalities that I think you dislike. This is just my feeling. Just your thoughts on these few people here. Ronald does not have to be any length at all here, just real gut level reaction. Ronald Reagan 1:55:11 JA: Hated him. 1:55:12 SM: Ed Meese. 1:55:14 JA: Was not really, you know, until, until Watergate, until Nixon. He was not really a figure but it I hated him too. When it became obvious as to who he was, I am sure, by the way, they both hated us. Us being the movement. 1:55:34 JA: Richard Nixon. 1:55:36 JA: Please. 1:55:37 SM: That is all I have to ̶ okay. And Spiro Agnew. 1:55:40 JA: Please. 1:55:41 SM: LBJ. 1:55:43 JA: “Hey, how many kids that you kill LBJ,” although, I have to say that LBJ, I am now as a recipient of Medicare, I have to admit to conflicted feelings about LBJ. He did some good stuff. 1:55:57 SM: Hubert Humphrey. 1:56:00 JA: You know, the slogan there was “dump the hump.” I mean he ̶ we knew that he was going to continue the war and so therefore I did not, I dislike him immensely. 1:56:11 SM: George Bush is the first and George Bush the second. 1:56:14 JA: These people are, continue in the tradition of sending Americans to die in unjust and unnecessary wars and for that I believe they are despicable, as a matter of fact all these people go on my despicable list. 1:56:31 SM: Yeah, Dwight Eisenhower, is he on it? 1:56:35 JA: Well, you know, it is funny, I once was visiting somewhere in Denmark and he was there and or maybe he was there and he was sort of visiting the same castle together so I always have had had a slight bit of more of a positive feeling and also for really, for his identification of the military industrial complex as something to be concerned about. 1:56:58 SM: John Mitchell. 1:57:00 JA: Oh, terrible man. terrible man. 1:57:03 SM: J. Edgar Hoover. 1:57:08 JA: J. Edgar Hoover was personally responsible for harassing and surveilling me and Stew, and all of our contemporaries, for setting up potential concentration camps to put us in. And for you know, killing the Rosenberg, for setting up Mayor Daley to believe the yippie exaggerations. So, the man was evil. I would say J. Edgar Hoover was evil. 1:57:39 SM: Did you feel there was a, because I know COINTELPRO was really big back then, of course, they were really going through the American Indian Movement. And certainly, the Black Panthers and SDS and Mobe. And they were, what is it about? Is, do you fear that that is ongoing today? 1:58:00 JA: Well, you know, the FBI, under COINTELPRO put a homing device on my car, burglarized our house and the cabin eight times and then installed a listening device for seventeen days. These were all illegal, the fiscal responsible, the one on the top being L. Patrick Gray, where I would say removed from office and disciplined although they were never jailed or anything like that, everything that the FBI did to us, and I have piles of surveillance files on everything that the FBI did to us. The homing device, the burglaries, the listening device, are now entirely legal under FISA and the Patriot Act. 1:58:44 SM: Well and you can go down and get your files anytime you want to cannot you in Washington or? 1:58:47 JA: We did that actually, when we, when I found the homing device. We sued the FBI and we got tons of files there now on repository at the lab data collection at the University of Michigan. 1:59:01 SM: Wow. Someone said I ought to get my file. I never even looked. Mayor John Daley 1:59:08 JA: You mean Richard Daley? 1:59:09 SM: I mean, Richard Daley, excuse me. 1:59:10 JA: The argument he gave me in the sun. I mean, well, Richard Daley was a racist, an anti-Semite. And he allowed himself to be essentially wired by Hoover, so that he would overreact to us. Daley, I do believe if Daley had granted us permit a lot of violence to sleep in the park. A lot of the violence in Chicago would have been avoided. Instead, he adopted the most aggressive stance that he could and just gave his police force free reign to beat demonstrators. 1:59:51 SM: I will never forget the senator that was calling him a Gestapo head. Well ̶ 1:59:55 JA: And then you know what Daley, you know, and you know what Daley said back? 1:59:59 SM: No, I do not know what he said. 2:00:01 JA: Something like you Jew bastard son of a bitch. 2:00:04 SM: Yeah, I forget the senators name from Connecticut, I think. Robert McNamara. 2:00:10 JA: You know where you can find it in my book the Conspiracy Trial because it was brought out in the trial. 2:00:13 SM: Robert McNamara. 2:00:17 JA: Hated him because of the war. 2:00:19 SM: Henry Kissinger. 2:00:20 JA: That is the same. 2:00:21 SM: Haldeman and Ehrlichman. 2:00:24 JA: They got what they deserved. 2:00:26 SM: Governor Nelson Rockefeller because he oversaw Attica. 2:00:30 JA: Yeah, well, he was the murder of murderer as well. 2:00:33 SM: Barry Goldwater. 2:00:36 JA: Well, you know, Barry Goldwater’s a little interesting because he was pro-choice. And he actually hosted events for Planned Parenthood at his home. So, there is a little ambivalence. 2:00:50 SM: And William Buckley. 2:00:53 JA: William Buckley, you know, was an articulate right wing, son of a bitch. 2:00:59 SM: And I did not ask you your thoughts on the women's movement, which was certainly Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, your thoughts on those leaders in the early years? 2:01:11 JA: Well, some of that, you know, if you look in the Sixties Papers, we wrote about that in the introduction, the women's movement, segments of the Sixties Papers, but, you know, they came along, they were more the mainstream women's movements. And what I grew up in and my contemporaries was women's liberation, which is more radical. And our view essentially was, if black people can have a liberation movement, and the Vietnamese can have a liberation movement, and Chicanos can have a liberation movement, then we too, as women, we are oppressed, and we also can be liberated. I was glad that the Steinem’s and the Friedan’s of the world, were able to take these concepts and make them more mainstream, so more and more women benefited. At the time, we were critical because we felt that they were the middle of the road. 2:02:02 SM: I just realized that Betty Friedan brings, the people in the gay and lesbian movement just cannot stand her because she was homophobic. So, and that is a real sensitive issue when you bring up her name. I am going to end right now, except I want, I had, I did not ask the final question here, which is what have you been doing all these past years? I know you are involved in Planned Parenthood, what causes have you have been involved in since the yippies. 2:02:29 JA: I would say the Planned Parenthood, I worked for Planned Parenthood for over twenty years as a fundraiser. And so, the causes that I have been primarily involved in has been choice and reproductive rights. And I actually raised have raised millions of dollars for those causes, and I am very proud of that. I consider that a very important life achievement. I also for a number of years, was involved in two states solution in Israel and ending the Israeli occupation, and I am currently living in the cohousing community and I am very much involved in cohousing and people living in community with the intention of building community. It is a very different kind of lifestyles than I have lived before but certainly is way, way better than the way most people live in isolated nuclear families. We do have a community, we support each other, we care for each other. And it is very, cohousing is a very wonderful institution that I have only just in the last few years become aware of. 2:03:39 SM: Is your new husband as active as your former husband? 2:03:44 JA: Well, he was involved in founding this cohousing community. And what he does as a living, he is a financial planner for socially responsible investing. So, what that means is essentially he is part of the movement to look at corporations and make them more responsible to environmental concerns, to women's concern, to the consumer, to, to the concerns that any progressive person would support. 2:04:14 SM: Where did you get your PhD? 2:04:16 JA: University of Toronto. 2:04:20 SM: I am done. Are there any questions? I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask. 2:04:24 JA: No. But you wiped me out. 2:04:29 SM: I tell you, what an honor to, to interview you. And I will keep you abreast of all the, the transcripts when they become available. You will see it. 2:04:38 JA: Well please do. I would appreciate transcripts. I would also actually appreciate a copy of the tape of the interview. 2:04:44 SM: Oh, you want a copy of that too? Very good. Well, okay, well, we will be in touch and as far as getting some pictures of you. I do not need them right now but sometime during the summer I would like a couple pictures. 2:04:59 JA: Well, well. I would like to say and pick anything you want from the website. And there is one of me that is supposed to come on my email. I do not know if it does, but it is on my Facebook page. 2:05:08 SM: Okay, anybody, have anybody, got a whole list of names that Paul gave me to try to interview. So, if you think of any other names, let me know, because ̶ 2:05:18 JA: You know, I mean, I, I too have a whole list of names. So, you know, if you are looking for what I suggest is if you are looking for people of a certain type, you know, you need a person who can do this and you need a person who can do that, shoot me an email and I will ̶ 2:05:31 SM: I would like more female speakers. That is what I like, more women. 2:05:41 JA: Yeah, well, I am not sure I, you know, I like to say my brain is fried by now. But if I think of any I will, I will let you know. 2:05:49 SM: Alright. Well, thank you very much. You have a great day. 2:05:51 JA: Yeah, you too. Take care. 2:05:53 SM: Yep. Bye now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Judy Gumbo Albert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Albert, Judith Clavir, 1943- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Political activists--United States; Albert, Judith Clavir, 1943--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Judy Gumbo Albert is a Canadian-born activist who was associated with many organizations such as the Yippies, Women's International Terrorist Conspiracy from Hell, and The Women's Liberation Movement. She married Stew Albert, a political activist, who was a founder of the Yippies. Dr. Gumbo Albert has a Ph.D. in Sociology. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-04-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.34a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.34b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 125:57 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3b7fb618df7aee331d3c759314624e6c.jpg eea6275ef0620223761107fcf03eff73 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a8c85b626dde92be81e3ed4b03f8f410.mp3 095ac0432f1e4faaa17d5e7f7ed5a119 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-02-22 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Patti Cassidy Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; 1960s; Political Correctness; Activism; Government trust; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; late 1940s-1950s; Civil Rights Movement; 19770s; Sanctuary Movement&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:2,&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Baby boom generation; 1960s; Political Correctness; Activism; Government trust; George W. Bush; Bill Clinton; late 1940s-1950s; Civil Rights Movement; 19770s; Sanctuary Movement</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 165:33 Subject LCSH Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Cassidy, Patti--Interviews Biographical Text Patti Cassidy is a playwright and producer. She wrote her first play on a dare in a Mexican border town in southern Arizona. From then on her work has been produced from LA to Paris. Cassidy currently is co-producing a series of readings of plays in the greater Boston area. She has a Bachelor's degree in English Language and Literature from SUNY Albany. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Patti Cassidy Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 22 February 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): You are going here. PC (00:00:04): Okay. SM (00:00:06): I have got lots of questions to ask you, but some of them will be a little different than David, and some will be the same that David got. PC (00:00:11): Okay. David, whether they are all the same or- SM (00:00:14): Well, the first question. When I looked at your website, I am pretty fascinated by the fact that your experiences are pretty diverse. And before we even get into specifics about the boomers, it is about boomer lives, when you say that you grew up in New York State and then you lived in the Arizona Desert and the New England Island- PC (00:00:33): Right. SM (00:00:34): ... that is given you a diffuse and eclectic experience of the United States, was that when you were young? Was that during your early years? PC (00:00:42): No, I grew up in upstate New York, and I was up there until I was 20 something, 25. And then, the man that I ended up marrying, he and I did that great American go and find out if there was a better place to live kind of thing. And we ended up in Arizona, and that was in the 1970s. So, when I was 25. And we lived there down there, first, in Tucson, and then moved up into the mountains and did the homesteading thing, and that was total 27 years. And then, I moved back here to Boston because it was time to come home. And by that time I was divorced. And then, I met David, and he, of course, was on an island in Narragansett Bay. So, that is now. Excuse me. SM (00:01:48): Was there anything about your upbringing as a child that you wanted to explore America, you wanted to see more than just growing up in New York? PC (00:01:58): No. Just to put it bluntly, travel. Our vacations were either in Western Pennsylvania where my family's family came from, or it was in Maine, Kennebunkport, actually. And that was fine. And I did not have the wanderlust. I did not particularly have any reason to want to travel. Although when my aunt went to Greece, she was a classic professor. When she went to Greece and showed me pictures of, well, this is the crossroads where Oedipus met his father, that started to spark something. That was when I was about 12 or 13, but it was not very strong until college basically. And the year I dropped out of college to buy a motorcycle and travel across the country- SM (00:02:55): Wow. PC (00:02:56): ... by myself, I went to drop out, and my guidance counselor said, "Do you know that 25 percent of your class has dropped out here?" SM (00:03:06): Now, what school was this? PC (00:03:07): That was State University of New York at Albany. SM (00:03:09): Oh, okay. PC (00:03:10): And that was the years, and that is the way things were happening. SM (00:03:16): And what year was that? PC (00:03:19): That was 1968. SM (00:03:22): Oh, that was a big year. PC (00:03:23): That was a huge year. SM (00:03:26): Yeah. Yeah. So, you traveled around the country. What was that like? Share a little bit about that year. PC (00:03:32): Well, that trip, I was a young girl, and I have always been young looking for my age. So, I looked like I was 12 or something, riding around. Basically, I got as far as Nebraska before I turned around and went back. But I was alone. I was on a motorcycle. I had a Honda 350, and it looked like a mini Harley. And it was just interesting for me to feel the sense of freedom. The people I met. I remember in Illinois somewhere, I had run a stop light or a stop sign, which I had not seen. But this cop pulled me over, and I took my helmet off and my hair fell down because it was long hair. And he was flabbergasted that there was this girl going by herself. And he said, "What are you doing?" And I said, "Well, I am taking a spike across the country and seeing what I can see." And he said, "Well, that is amazing because I had always wanted to do something like that." And he poured his heart out about how he had always wanted to go on trips like that, but he never had the nerve. And so, that was pretty neat. And then, there were a lot of people who told me, "You be careful. You were driving by yourself. You were going alone by yourself." And I really did not feel afraid. That is the thing, I was not a particularly brave kind of a girl or a tomboy even. It was just something that I wanted to do. And of course, I'd seen your basic easy rider, and I had been reading a little bit of Kerouac. Not a lot. SM (00:05:32): On the road. PC (00:05:33): On the road. So, basically I was becoming more and more interested in seeing, "Well, what is this? There is got to be something outside of Albany." And so, that is when I started to take trips. SM (00:05:52): Well, 1968, obviously, your brother-in-law has written a great book about it, but it is a historic year in so many ways. And the way your brother-in-law talked about it is there were things leading up to it. There were historic events and happenings that played a very important part in that year, even before that year. But when you looked at America in 1968, obviously, if you were on the road on a motorcycle, you may not have been watching television as much as others. We had the assassinations that year of Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy, Johnson resigned and was not going to run again as president. We had the Tet situation in Vietnam, and then obviously the conventions and the confrontation in Chicago. PC (00:06:36): Oh, I paid a lot of attention. SM (00:06:38): Yeah. When you were going across the country, were you talking to people? Were people talking about it in restaurants or wherever you were stopping? PC (00:06:49): No, I did not really hear much about it. I was only on the road for, I think, three weeks because, as I say, by the time I got out to Nebraska, I said I am going home. And I tended to be a fairly shy person. But what I saw, basically, all the way across country, as I say I never felt fear. I really did not feel afraid at any time. And I saw, I guess, what I expected to see. I saw people who dressed like I did, even in the Midwest. I did not find it a foreign land, which I was thinking that I would have. But as far as discussing the situation with people I did not know, no, I cannot really say that I heard a lot of discussions going on in diners or anything like that. Right. SM (00:07:50): Right. Do you look at your growing up years as a female boomer, which is obviously different than a male boomer. Do you feel that a female boomers' experiences were really totally different? PC (00:08:06): I do not know that they were totally different. I think they were different in the way you related to what you learned. I do not think that we had the feeling of we can go out, or I can only speak to myself. I did not have a feeling that, oh, I could go out and ride a motorcycle. Oh, I could go out and overturn the government. Oh, I can go out and do all of these things. And yet, as the years went on, I did start to feel that power during that period. I did really feel like, oh, I can do all these things. It was a very empowering time for me as a woman. And one of the big things, and I wondered if you were going to be talking about it, was birth control. SM (00:08:53): Yes. PC (00:08:54): That was just phenomenal. And it was the biggest change. Now, I grew up a staunch Catholic gal, and of course the idea of, A, birth control and, B, needing it, we were out of the question. But once the hippie years started, and I started getting involved with people, and then all of a sudden you have got birth control on top of it, which meant you did not have the biggest consequence that you had to worry about, it made me feel totally free. And at that point, I think I really wanted to try to experiment more. I really wanted to take advantage of the freedoms that guys had traditionally had that you had to be more careful when you were a girl. Suddenly, there was this thing that made it be, oh, you do not have to be as careful because you're not going to have to get pregnant. And so, that made a really huge difference. But as far as growing up, I did feel limited. I did feel very much like there was a role to play. You go to school, you get married, you have kids, and you do that thing. I was not happy with that role. That really did not seem to fit me. But because of the way things were. Now, I thought I would be a nun, actually, rather than a mother, because, if you were a Catholic kid, that was your other option. But I did not feel like there were very many options until the (19)60s came along, when all of a sudden things cracked open and you suddenly realize, yeah, I do have a lot of different options. I could ride a motorcycle, or I could be a writer, or I could be all of these things. It was almost overwhelming. SM (00:10:52): Yeah. You mentioned the pill. One of the questions someplace and on my list here is a question that I was going to ask regarding what were the major happenings or events that really affected you as a female boomer during the time that you were young? And when I say young, I am also talking about your elementary school years, your high school, your college, in the twenties, thirties, into the (19)40s, because I consider that young. So, we are talking about the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and the (19)80s. I am really looking at those periods. PC (00:11:28): Okay. SM (00:11:29): So, obviously the pill was very important. Was the sexual revolution a myth? Or was there truth to it? PC (00:11:37): I do not know. No, I do not think the sexual revolution was a myth at all. You suddenly had people who, well, as I just mentioned, the pill was so huge because you had one group of the population saying it is possible to do this and not have to deal with, oh, I am going to have a baby. I am going to have to take care of it. Or I cannot do anything that I really want to with my boyfriend because, et cetera. So, you had that freedom. At that point, there was not a whole lot of venereal disease problems that could not be fixed by a shot of penicillin. And so, that was another issue. Everybody I knew was involved. And remember, I was basically in a pretty middle-class situation. Standard, good Catholic, strong background situation. But I would say by 1972, it was just an arbitrary date, came around, almost everybody I knew was having full relationships with guys. I mean, our parents were tearing their hair out. But basically, none of my generation had a problem with, yes, she was living with so-and-so, or they are getting together every weekend, or whatever. You just did not even think about it. It just flew over the top of your head. SM (00:13:10): How important was Roe v. Wade with women, too? PC (00:13:15): Roe v. Wade was very important. And at the time that that decision was made, I was very happy that the freedom came along. But I ended up rethinking in the 1980s, the late (19)80s, I started rethinking my position about it. And that was actually due to a remark that was made a man that I really respected by the name of Nat Hentoff. I do not know if you know him. SM (00:13:51): Nat Hentoff. That name rings a bell. PC (00:13:55): He was actually a jazz critic for the Village Voice and a very smart guy. And he started doing some investigation, basically, to decide how he felt about the abortion issue. And he came up with some conclusions that, when I read them, I said I do not want to be pro-life. I do not want to be pro-life. I want to continue to be pro-choice because it goes along with my anti-war stance and everything else. But the more I thought about it, the more I got back to first causes, the more I felt I had to change my decision on that. And basically, I tried not even to say very much about what I believed, because I knew everybody would look at me like I have got a third head. SM (00:14:48): Betty Friedan, of course, was one of the big writers of that period, and she wrote many books dealing with women. And she used to always say that the mothers, which our parents, the mothers of the boomers, were basically very unfulfilled in the late forties and the (19)50s, and when they raised the kids. Do you feel this is true? I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly this past week in Washington. PC (00:15:15): Oh, wow. SM (00:15:16): And she said that that was nothing but propaganda, that women love being homemakers, and that women were fulfilled in raising their kids. So, there is a lot of different points of view here. But do you feel that your mother, the mothers of the (19)50s, were unfulfilled because they were home being homemakers as opposed to working? PC (00:15:41): My mother personally did not have a real problem with it. She was very ill. She had heart condition, and so she was not a real go-getter to go out and have a career or anything. But I cannot really agree with Phyllis Schlafly. There were a lot of hamstrung women. There were a lot of women who wanted more than what they could have that I saw that when the was made available to them to go out and work or to do more things than be a mom and be consistently tied to your kids. There were a lot of divorces that happened around then, I remember. And sometimes, they actually bought the wrong product. Freedom meant getting a job, but getting a job might be a file clerk, and that was, certainly, not even as fulfilling as being a mom. So, sometimes they did not think it through. But I cannot really say that I agree with her just based on my own personal observation. A lot of women that I talked to that I knew were frustrated, that they were very glad to add to their roles, they were glad for the opportunity to try to do different things. SM (00:17:12): Yeah. That was an interesting time because a lot of women had worked during World War II when the men went off to war. There were a lot of women in the war, but that is where women really worked. And I can remember my mom was a tremendous secretary. And then, when my dad came home from the war, she gave all that up to raise the kids. And I had never even thought of asking her once we started moving off into the world whether she felt fulfilled after all those years. She raised kids. PC (00:17:40): Is she still around now? SM (00:17:42): No, she passed away in 1998. PC (00:17:45): Oh, okay. SM (00:17:46): And I never even asked my dad who passed away in 2002 some of these issues. I wish I could have asked them. But that was a big issue because the Equal Rights Amendment, of course, was defeated in the early (19)70s and the mid-(19)70s, and Phyllis Schlafly was a very important reason why it was defeated. PC (00:18:09): Right. As a matter of fact, I just finished reading a book called, it was not The Way We Were. It is, The Way Things Were, I think. And basically, it tells about the way things were for women in the early (19)60s all the way up to now. And it does not try to be a polemic. It does not try to say, "Oh, this was terrible." It just said, "This is what happened." And one thing that she mentioned that I had forgotten all about is that, financially, I had to have a male's signature to start my bank account, to start my checking account, I had to have my dad's signature. And credit cards. I looked into getting a credit card. I did not get it. But basically, you have to have a man sign for you. And I had forgotten all about that because, basically, it really did hamstring you. Again, it was that whole feeling of you really did not have the power because, in fact, you had to get the permission, even in the 1970s when I wanted to have a tubal ligation, I had to have my husband. SM (00:19:25): Wow. PC (00:19:26): I could not just do that on my own say so. They said, "Well, your husband has to sign the papers." He was not happy about that. He said, "Well, it's her body. She should do what she wants." SM (00:19:36): Right. PC (00:19:37): And they said, "No, you are her husband, so you have to sign.” SM (00:19:41): Well, one of the things that the women's movement talked about, Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug, I was looking up some of the quotes, and that is that they felt that women were unfulfilled. And to this day, Mrs. Schlafly believes that this propaganda continues, and they need to move on. So, anyways, that is just a little side note. Now, you're a very artistic person, obviously, because I looked at your background, and were doing films and writing and so forth and sculpture. PC (00:20:21): Right. SM (00:20:22): Do you feel that this area of interest had anything to do with reinventing yourself, which is a quality so many boomers felt. I know, even in Charles's book, he talks about this business of a concept, and a lot of people wanted to reinvent themselves. They did not want to be like their parents. Their parents were part of a generation that ended a war. Of course, beat two really bad, at that time, very bad countries that were doing terrible things. But when the war ended, they came home. And a lot of people in the boomer generation were upset that this was a generation that also created the atomic bomb, and that they wanted to be different, and they wanted to reinvent themselves. Do you feel that anything you have done in your life was not that you did not disrespect your parents, but you did not want to be like them? You wanted to reinvent yourself and be your own person? PC (00:21:29): It is an interesting question because I am constantly reinventing myself. I think that, basically, the way I chose to run my life, I knew I had to kick against the belief because you had not only, basically, GI parents. Well, my father was even farther back. He was born in 1904. He was old when I was born. But it was not so much that I wanted to be something different than they were, but I wanted to be something different than what the world expected of me because it did not fit. Like I said, the housewife with the kids, that never did fit me. I wanted the freedom to do that. Let me think for just a second. I think that it was all about experimenting. It was all about experiments. And one thing we were lucky enough, as a generation, to have cheap education. We could all go to college or almost everybody could go to school. And so, we had a lot of opportunities to explore ideas and possibilities. And with me, I read tons of poetry. I met a lot of people who were involved mostly in the writing game. And so, basically, I wanted to try that out. I wanted to try those [inaudible 00:23:12]. So, as far as reinvention, reinventing the traditional roles, yeah, but not necessarily in opposition to my parents, but just to try it out. SM (00:23:26): Yeah, you are a boomer. What is your overall feelings about your generation? It is interesting. Even if you look at the books, they cannot even come up with the exact number of boomers, anywhere from 70 to 78 million. That is quite a discrepancy. But I have seen many different quotes. 70, 74, 78 million. What are your thoughts on your generation, not only when you were young, but have you changed your opinions of them as you have grown older and as they have grown older? And in terms of some of the qualities they possess, a lot of them had this idealism that was a very important part of the generation. There was a feeling of community where, whether it be a cause, people could come together and believe and fight for justice. Or have strong feelings toward a particular issue, and they knew that other people felt that way. So, a sense of community, and there was also a sense of movements, many movements, that you felt a sense of empowerment, that an individual could make a difference, that the individual was important. But you had not only community, but you had the importance of individual freedom of speech. And that, finally, my views, and I can make a difference in this world. So, what are your overall feelings of your generation when you were young, and as you have grown older? PC (00:24:59): Basically, starting, when you are saying, when I was young as a kid, I do not think I had that much of a feeling as a child. But as I got older, and this is a point where my husband and I diverge. I am proud of the boomers. I am proud of what we did. At that point, I was, although every once in a while my contemporaries would irritate me because they were self-righteous. But they were questioning. I mean, there was this whole thing about our generation questioned everything. And sometimes it got silly, and sometimes it led into weird places. But in fact, at least they were questioning, at least they were saying, "Well, what is this?" And they were trying to make an alternative to basically the gray corporate world, which is what we grew up in, and the world where everybody had a standard that they had to tow the line or else the left out or called weird or whatever. At last, people were saying, "Okay, we do not have to do this. We can do some other things. We can try other situations." And I was proud of that. I was very happy to be a part of that. And I still think that boomers get a bad rap. Everybody goes, "Oh, my God. Look how it turned out, and look how terrible they are. And look at how greedy and grasping they are. And look at all the things that went wrong." Well, you know what? It may have gone wrong with a lot of them, but also with a lot of people, it did not, I mean, just in the church, and I will go back to that because that was most familiar. I mean, there were things that were done that made it more understandable and accessible to more people. The whole divorce thing, the whole, they call them, street priests. I mean, priests actually going out into the street and helping kids, like juvenile delinquents and stuff. I think we did a good job of what we did, which was questioning all the basic assumptions and saying, "Do they work or do not they? What can we tear apart?" Sometimes, we got to be tearing apart for the hell of it. In fact, I always felt when I saw somebody my age, I knew pretty much, or I felt that I knew pretty much, what I could expect. And that did do a bonding thing for me. As I said, I did not approve of a lot of stuff they did, because sometimes I felt that they were too self-righteous. And sometimes I felt they were silly. But in fact, the situation was that somebody had to go questioning this stuff or else was going to go on forever as far as we could see. SM (00:27:56): You mentioned some of the things that you felt were weaknesses. What do you consider some of the strengths and weaknesses? I have had people that will not answer this question because they said, "I cannot answer a question for 74 million different individuals." PC (00:28:09): Well, that is true. SM (00:28:11): And so, based on your experiences, though, and the boomers that you knew, what do you consider their strengths and their weaknesses? PC (00:28:24): Well, I will start out with the weaknesses. The weaknesses were that they did tend, when they grabbed on to something, to be a little self-righteous. And as far as today goes, I do not think that we are as self-righteous anymore. I really do not. And I think that that may be why we fall apart, why we went from being a group to being a bunch of individuals. So, I think that the self-righteousness was probably a weakness. Another thing was that because we were so curious about everything. We wanted to bring in, say, Caribbean poetry of the 18th century as a course to be taught in colleges as opposed to just the straight cannon. It got a little bit silly, some of the stuff. So, those I think are the weaknesses. I think as far as the strengths go, I see it as a strength to question everything. To basically say, "This is not working. What can we do? Let us go down to first causes. Let us really get behind it." Think of all the teach-ins. These were not just demonstrations where people say, "Oh, let us go out and club a few heads." Or, "Let us go out and dance in the streets." They said, "Let us have teach-ins. Let us find out what the truth is behind things." And I think that was a real strength of my generation. I am happy that they did that. And I am also happy with the hippie movement. Although again, it got to be something other. It got to be probably too much in the world of drugs. We lost too many people that way. The fact that, again, they were trying to experiment and trying to put it into action, put your theories into action. Go out and reject, I do not know if you remember this. There was that big thing about the culture of death. The ruling culture is the culture of death. Let us be the culture of life. They really did give it a whack. They really did. It was not this violent thing that you see going on now. Oh, how do you rebel against the establishment now is get a zip gun. Back then, it was just tell them to do their own thing and drop out. SM (00:31:00): A critic of that view maybe, I am from the era, too. So, I know. PC (00:31:10): Oh, good. SM (00:31:10): But my opinions do not mean anything in this book. The key thing here is there were people that used drugs to get away from the reality of the world they were seeing. And if they wanted to be the change agents for the betterment of society, did not they want to be sober or off drugs to be able to deal with this? Experimentation is one thing, but to be thought upon as legitimate people who care deeply about changing the world, why get on drugs? So, I am just being a critic here. PC (00:31:47): No, I understand. And I have a complicated relationship with that, too, because I must admit, I experimented just like people did. I always held a job and everything like that. I mean, it never got in the way of that. But you may be talking about two different people. Basically, you have got some people who say, okay, let us try to change the world with tutoring, classes after school, tutoring of classes, working in the slums, doing that sort of thing. You have got other people who are experimenting with themselves and they are saying, "What will it take? What if I try this drug?" Particularly the hallucination. "What if I take this drug? What will happen to me?" So, they're exploring themselves. You do not necessarily have the same person doing two different things. Some people would try to change society, some people would try to change themselves, and some people were just not interested in changing anything. SM (00:32:56): Well, we know that we lost some great musicians to drugs, and that is just well known and documented. Do you have any personal experiences of friends or peers or fellow college students or people that lost their life or were totally destroyed by being involved in drugs? Do you have any anecdotes or stories? PC (00:33:19): Let me think about that. Basically, everybody I knew took drugs to one degree or another, anywhere from pot to heavier stuff. I did not have any personal experience with anybody I know dying from drugs. One girl, her parents sent her to an asylum because she was very whacked out. And I certainly saw a lot of meltdowns, but at that point, we were all taking care of our own. SM (00:33:58): Well, I think, one day, someone, if they could write a book. There has never been a book written about it. One day someone, if they could write a... there has never been a book written about it. Of course how do you document it? But you have to find boomer parents who lost kids and most boomer parents are passing away now. PC (00:34:10): Who, the people who died from drugs? SM (00:34:14): Yeah, because it is a story... we know about these personalities who died from drugs, but the question is, we read that so many lives were destroyed. And who are these people whose lives were destroyed? Who are they? PC (00:34:30): Exactly. SM (00:34:31): And no one was ever really done a book on it, like an interviewing. I wish I was 25 years younger now talking to boomer parents about losing their son or daughter because it would be a great story in terms of students not getting involved in drugs today. A couple things. When Newt Gingrich came into power in 1994, and obviously when George Will does a lot of his writing in his books and comms, they love to take shots at the (19)60s generation or the boomers that grew up after World War II. And they look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s when boomers were young and say, a lot of the problems we have in our society today go right back to that era, which includes the skyrocketing divorce rate, the no commitment with between... in relationships, the ism culture, which is everybody's a victim and nobody takes it by their bootstraps to help themselves. The drug culture, the sexual revolution, sexual morays, whether it be through movies or the way people lived and all the other things. They love to take shots at the generation for all the problems that are in America today. I know it's very generalized, but it has been documented and they're not the only ones. There has been a lot of books written about even the issue that what is going on in universities today. The troublemakers of the (19)60s are the professors of today, and that is why the universities are destroyed with political correctness and women's studies programs and gay studies and Native American studies, everything studies and only caring about their own particular culture. Your thoughts on these criticisms that people do have about things that they felt began when boomers were young and then they have carried it on in their adult lives. PC (00:36:34): And that is part of this whole blame the boomers for everything culture that is arisen. We had a conversation at home just the other night about this whole attitude toward people. Yeah, well, something is wrong, it must be the boomers. Boomers are really horrible people. They did all this. You know what, it is every generation does the same thing. As far as the diversity of people who were women's studies, Native American studies, that kind of studies, I will say that that came during that period. That you started looking out and saying, is history in fact only name states and of the ruling powers and war studies and peace studies and diplomacy studies, or do other [inaudible] of the population have a story in itself too. And to what degree should that be recognized. Political correctness used as... this is only my opinion, but has been used as a piece of propaganda against the left when in fact you will see the same kind of thing going on in the right. And I am not going to go any farther with that because I do not have any name states and facts that I can do that. But I think that, I do not think that all the political correctness battles have been entirely a problem of the left. And them too, I do not see them blaming the right-wing boomers because there were right wing boomers. You had the young Republicans, you had- SM (00:38:17): Young Americans for Freedom. PC (00:38:19): Exactly. You had that whole rule. But you see absolutely no criticism of those guys. You only see criticisms of the left. Why is that? Because who is doing the criticism? Well, you have got your Newt Gingrich not known as a left-wing pundit. I would tend to look carefully at whether they are saying it is the boomers or it is the left that is making all of these problems. And who's doing the criticism? Is it the left that is doing the criticism or is it the right? If it is all across the board, then you have got something to look at. SM (00:38:57): See, I think the critics... it has been explained to me by some of the people I have interviewed that it is really the 15 percent of the activists who were really involved in any of the movements at that time that they are really critical of. And sometimes they are not critical of the whole generation because, again, one of the things of the criticisms is that, well, only 15 percent of the boomers were really involved in any kind of an activism. We are really talking about the new left and the anti-war and all the people who are involved in all those different movements. That is what they... they try to redefine it that way. Not the whole generation of 85 percent that never involved in anything. But then I come back to them, and I ask you this, even though it may be critical of those who were activists, including the Phyllis Schlafly's of the world who was a conservative in that period, and they were Young Americans for Freedom, do not you feel that somehow in some way, all of the boomers were subconsciously affected by the times they lived in, even though they were not active in any of the movements? And as time's gone on, they are affected by it. PC (00:40:12): I am not quite sure that I can clearly... I am not quite sure that I understand. You are saying that all boomers, that their mindsets were affected by what was going on? SM (00:40:25): I am trying to say that subconsciously the 85 percent who were not involved in any kind of activism still were affected somewhat by the times they lived in. PC (00:40:35): Well, we are all affected by [inaudible]. I think that is fair. SM (00:40:39): And that is somewhat lessened when people say only 15 percent were involved. PC (00:40:44): Because you have even got, well Silent. David told me the figures one time for divorce during the 19 early (19)70s when divorce really got cranked up. It was the Silent who were getting divorces. I think it affects everybody all the way across the board, not just the boomers, but anybody who lives during a period of time is going to be affected by what's going on. SM (00:41:09): How do you feel that many boomers felt they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to change the world like it'd never been seen before? That they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, war, and they were going to make a better world. PC (00:41:26): Well, you know what, that was part of the thing that I was telling you that used to drive me a little nuts, is that people did tend to get self-righteous. But did we believe that we were different, that we were essentially the salvation of the United States? I do not know. I think we thought that we could really make a change. And we did. When the Vietnam War was over, we really had a feeling that we had a significant role in making that happen. So that gives you a feeling of power to say, God, if I can do that I could do anything. And so you start building on that. And then you have the social programs that started up and had started. And the Peace Corps. People were actually going out and doing things and seeing some differences. And the more... excuse me, the more they built on that, the more they did feel in power. Now, what continues to flummox me is what happened to the ones that got a degree in corporate? Did they just burn out and went too far in the other direction? That is possible. SM (00:42:47): Let me change the tape here. Change to the other side. The next question I have is one of the two basic questions that I have been trying to get responses from all of my interviewees. And I am going to read this one because this is something our students put together when we went to Washington DC about 15 years ago, and we met with former Senator Edmond Muskie. And because he wanted to talk about 1968 because he was the vice presidential running mate with Humphrey. And this is the question. Do you feel that the boomers as a generation are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between Black and white, divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, divisions between those who supported the troops and those who did not? What role has the Vietnam War played in healing the divisions or was this primarily a healing for veterans? And finally, do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, "Time heals all wounds," a truth? And I think when I was trying to clarify this more, I think it's more between those who were against the war and protested against the war, who were boomers, and those who were veterans because the divisions are still there. PC (00:44:20): Between the veterans and the [inaudible]? SM (00:44:22): Well, veterans still had very strong feelings toward those people, most of them, toward those people who protested the war. And I do not know... And I think most of the people that protested the war, a lot of them never had problems with the veterans, they had problems with the authorities who sent them there. But there were a few that did have problems with anybody fighting. So, your thoughts about the generation as a whole, do you think this generation has a problem with healing? PC (00:44:55): That is a really good question. The divisions back then between say activists and- SM (00:45:06): I am going to turn my tape right now. Make sure... okay, go right ahead. PC (00:45:20): I think that as far as healing goes... see, this is very hard for me to speak for anybody other than myself. Although I was an anti-war protestor, again, as you said, it was not against the guys that went, although sometimes it was based on the person and how he presented himself. Because a lot of those guys did not want to go. They were not there because they wanted to be there, they were there because they were drafted. I do not have a problem with the guys who fought in Vietnam. I had a problem with self-righteousness on either side. Either the activists, again, that same old thing that I keep coming back to, or the soldiers who basically were ready to say, oh, well, we were just doing our duty and you are a bunch of pansies cause would not do it. But as far as now, it is to me personally, it is a dead issue. I do not feel that division happening now in myself. I am trying to think of the other boomers that I know, and I cannot think of people that carry it on. And I know... Some of my friends are people who fought in the war, fought in Vietnam, and they're not carrying it. Some of them actually even became anti-war activists later on for different wars. I guess my final answer would be, no, I am not feeling that that division is any really significant one unless you had a personal confrontation with somebody who was really aggressively from the other point of view. And then you might have it against that person. But I really do not see that as being an issue now. I might be blind, but I have not seen it. SM (00:47:27): I know when Senator Muskie was... we waited for him to respond and he did not. Then he finally said, "We have not healed since the Civil War.:" And then he went on to talk about, he had just seen the Ken Burns series because he had been in the hospital and he said, 400,000 men had lost their lives. We almost lost a whole generation. Particularly in the south. The number of men, it is unbelievable. It is amazing that they could even have families because so many had died from the south. But that is what he was responding to. And because he knows that anybody who knows what happens in Gettysburg, when the north and south came together, that the healing really was not there. And so many people did go to their graves, was still the bitterness of that period. PC (00:48:16): Well, the south is still fighting the war. We have all met people from the south or been in situations where they make it clear that they're still fighting that war. SM (00:48:30): I think I was originally getting... because I had been at the wall many times, this is like an anti-war protestor taking their family to the wall for the first time and having their little son or daughter look up to their father and say, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" I think that was kind of where this all came from I think in terms of the healing. The generation gap of something was very obvious between the World War II generation and the boomers. Of course, the Silent was that small group in between. But did you have an issue with generation gap between your parents and you? PC (00:49:06): There were things we did not agree on. My father was an interesting character because he was not a GI, he was before GI's. He was what was called the Lost. And although it turned out that he was a conservative, we just basically did not talk politics, which is really interesting. I had not even realized it until we were... David and I were talking about it recently. We did not do it. Basically, the rule in the house was, if you have got something to say and you can back it up with facts, then I will respect your opinion but if you are just mouthing out [inaudible], I will not. SM (00:49:50): That is very good. PC (00:49:50): And that is the way we ran it. We did not have political arguments for their sake, but it was, what do you believe here? Because I was a Goldwater girl when I was in high school, before I could vote. Talk about ultraconservative. I worked at the Goldwater headquarters. I read, None Dare Call It Treason, I knew the whole John Birch line. And went to a fraternity party one night, and we were talking about Vietnam and our involvement in Vietnam. And I was saying, "Well, no, we have to do it because of the domino theory, blah, blah, blah." And some of the guys who were against the war started asking me questions. And I went home that night and I could not sleep. I kept thinking, something is not working here, let us go back to first causes. Why are we fighting a war? What is the worst thing that could happen if we left Vietnam? By the end of that night, I said, I cannot be a Goldwater girl anymore. I cannot basically support the war anymore because, again, it was this life-changing thing. To go back to first causes, first question, what is behind this? What would happen if? And once you started doing that, wherever it goes, that is where you end up. And I ended up radical left, and I basically have not been out of that camp since. But I also do not align with any parties. I have even voted for Republicans when I thought they were honest human beings who were trying their best to do what they could. SM (00:51:41): I think Hillary Clinton was a Goldwater girl too at the very beginning. PC (00:51:47): Is that right? I did not know that. SM (00:51:47): Yes. She was a Goldwater girl. There is a whole story in her biography by... I forget her name... God, one of the first ones when Bill Clinton became president. And she said she had a great teacher because she was a Goldwater girl, and the other person was a LBG person so they were forced to take the other person's point of view in a class assignment. She ended up doing a debate in support of Johnson and the person who liked Johnson had to support Goldwater. And that was a great way of teaching. And that is when she started making her change toward being to the left as opposed to being to the right. PC (00:52:28): When you start questioning, I do not care whether you are on the left and you start questioning and you slide to the right or the other way around, if you can have a good reason for what you're doing, then it is legitimate, then there is no fight. SM (00:52:44): Well, I think that her name was [inaudible]. I think it is a great little book she wrote on Hillary Clinton when she was the first lady. In your eyes, what were the watershed moments? When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end? PC (00:53:01): Clearly, when Kennedy was shot, I think that was such a devastating situation for me and probably for everybody. That I knew suddenly, oh God, everything you believed in could be wiped out in an instance. And I was not a Kennedy fan, particularly, remember those were my Goldwater era days. But to have the president shot, that this could... I am sorry, it still makes me cry. That this could happen in your country was horrible. And so that is when that part of it started. When he got shot, it was total devastation of everything you believed in. And then the other half of it, the cultural revolution started when the Beatles arrived. My mother said that that was when I was ruined, when the Beatles came to the United States. She said, "You were ruined then, you were ruined." Everything fell apart. And so, I think that is clearly when they started. When they ended was when everybody seemed to get so self-absorbed, say the mid-(19)70s ish. It is like all of a sudden everybody was doing all these... and that is part of the victimization groups and all that stuff. Everybody was so involved in themselves, how they were [inaudible] better for themselves. But I feel that the idealism that marked our generation really started to get wiped out. SM (00:54:51): I know this is another question that some people did not want to answer, because they said, that is ridiculous to ask it because we're dealing with 74 to 78 million. But I said, if I had a room full of 500 people from all over the country, from all ethnic groups, from male, female, gay, lesbian, you name it, and I were to ask them, what do you feel was the most important event that affected your life, one specific happening, what would that be? PC (00:55:22): As a personal event? SM (00:55:26): Yeah, as an event that happened in your life when you were a boomer? And I was referring mainly to probably up to the age of 40 or whatever, what would it be? PC (00:55:39): That is a hard one if you are going to include the personal stuff. As far as national stuff- SM (00:55:45): National, international, is there any one specific happening that shaped you more than any other? PC (00:55:53): The Kennedy assassination on a political level. On a personal level, it had to do with a relationship with a guy. And that is all I really want to say. SM (00:56:10): And again, this is very difficult because we are talking about a lot of people. Do you think boomers have been good parents and good grandparents? I cannot believe we're saying that because a lot of boomers do not like to admit they are getting old. But boomers do not complain either, because I think they look like they are going to live longer. PC (00:56:34): What, because they do not complain about getting old? SM (00:56:38): I do not see a whole lot... they are just getting 62 now so I just do not see it- PC (00:56:43): I will tell you something about the boomers, the boomers have said tradition... all across the board, the boomers have said to themselves, okay, this is what happens at this age level, this is what I do not like, so what do I do to fix this? Therefore, you get things like... it's true, they did not invent it, but they certainly popularized it. Then you got birth control. As we were coming into a childbearing years, what is the thing that has to be fixed about getting pregnant when you do not want to? Well, give us something that will make it so we do not have babies. Then as older guys... and I am sorry because you are a boomer too, but as boomers started aging and getting that problem, what happens, Viagra. SM (00:57:29): Is not that amazing? PC (00:57:31): Whatever problems we have got or whatever problems hit the... when the boomers hit an age that has a problem, they fix it. And I think that is another good thing I like because they are not willing to say, okay, I am going to be 65 and I am going to be in a rocking chair. I do not know anybody my age who is sitting around in a rocking chair. I do not know anybody that age. What they have got now, if they're sitting in a rocking chair it is because they broke their knees skiing. SM (00:58:01): Well, they cannot walk. And of course, a lot of them retire because they want to go on do something else. PC (00:58:08): Exactly, nobody has... I started in the banking field when I was 20 and I am 70 and I am ready to retire and I am still in the banking field. There are some people that do that, but I think it is a much, much smaller percentage than our parents' generation. And it goes back to that thing that you were talking about, about reinventing ourselves. SM (00:58:30): But can you share... some people have told me their story, the exact moment that you heard that John Kennedy was shot and killed? Do you remember where you were? Tell me where you were and how you first heard about it? PC (00:58:47): I was in high school. Let us see, that was (19)63, and I graduated already, so it was my senior year. We were having career day. The Friday afternoon? SM (00:59:02): Yeah. PC (00:59:03): We were having career day at my high school, and it was between sessions. I was in the hallway and I heard a voice on the... sorry... a voice on the loudspeaker. And I thought to myself, God, that sounds like a black edged voice. You know black [inaudible]. It sounds like a black edged voice. And I got to the room, the next room where I was supposed to be, and somebody said, "The president has been shot." And after a little while, they said the president was dead and that we were all going to be released. And so my high school was on the other side of town from where I lived so we had to take a bus and it was tears all the way. People in the street were crying, the bus were crying, everybody was crying. And all we could do is sit there in front of the TV and cry all weekend. SM (01:00:16): That is what most people were doing. I was a sophomore. And the thing is, everybody was crying. And then we went home and then we saw the whole weekend. Oswald killed on Sunday on live TV, and then the funeral on Monday. And I remember not even sleeping, I stayed up because they were covering it nonstop on black and white TV. I cannot even think in terms of, was I thinking anything deeper than the loss of a president, what this all meant. I have been reading lately about other people that could have... they thought it might have been a conspiracy. Oh, there was so many things happening and of course- PC (01:00:58): Oh, I thought it was right after it. When I was on the bus... I knew it happened in Dallas, but I kept saying that those damn southerners, those damn southerners to kill our president, they're not part of the country. SM (01:01:15): Have you been to Dallas? PC (01:01:17): Never. SM (01:01:19): I would like to go once, but they say it is exactly the way it was. They made sure that they changed nothing. PC (01:01:27): Oh, right there? SM (01:01:27): Right there at the book depository and the road and everything is just the way it was then. Hopefully one day I will go there. One of the other issues is the issue of trust. It does not seem like the boomers... well, I did not finish the question. In terms of have they been good parents or grandparents in terms of... and by that, this is based on the experiences of people that you know, that they really shared the experiences of what it was like when they were young and the times they went through? Because today's young people do not seem to know a whole lot of history. That is partially because of the schooling system, but what are the parents doing in terms of educating their kids? And today, 85 percent of the college students are now sons and daughters of generation X'ers and they're not the daughters of boomers. But still 15 percent are Boomer children. And they're the ones that had children later. And I often wonder, what have they done to raise kids to be sensitive to the issues that they're facing in the world today? Just your thoughts on- PC (01:02:39): I wish I could tell you. I never had any kids myself. That was a conscious choice because I knew I would be a crappy parent. And that is why I was thrilled about birth control because I did not have to make that decision. But boomer parents always seemed fine to me, but I was not even thinking about it because that was not... they were friends of mine and they got very involved in their kids' lives but as far as what they were telling them about how they grew up, I suspect that they did it a little bit too much. Because I was somewhere recently, at a movie recently, and this dad was telling his kids, "Oh yeah, I went to Woodstock and I was part of Woodstock and blah, blah, blah." And I could see the kid's eyes glaze over as, oh God, not another boomer thing. And I suspect that that probably is not that uncommon. But as far as actually knowing how other boomers raised their kids specifically, I really do not feel qualified to answer. SM (01:03:48): At the university I worked at, before I left back in the mid (19)90s, we had a program where we brought boomers together with Generation X students. PC (01:03:57): Oh, that must have been interesting. SM (01:03:58): And we had two of them. We brought a TV personality in, and there was friction. PC (01:04:02): Was there really? SM (01:04:02): Yeah, there was friction. The faculty members that were on stage were boomers. And of course, they were very frustrated with today's college generation X'ers because first off, they were not activist enough and they did not work hard enough and all the other things. But the results of these sessions, two sessions were very obvious that the generation X'ers really did not care very much about boomers. And I do not think they do today either. And I think they would like them to get lost, basically. Because I do not find millennials, today's college students that way because I think they are fairly close to their parents. And I think they are close in many ways to boomers, but not generation X'ers. And I have even had issues with them personally. They had two responses to the boomers. And that is, "I am sick of hearing about how great it was when you were young. And all the nostalgia, I do not give a damn, I do not care. I am sick of hearing about it. And that is all you live on is the way it was. And I want to live now and I do not want to live back then." And the second group would say, well, "Geez, I wish I lived then because I wish we had the causes that you had." And there was nothing in between. PC (01:05:23): Nothing in between? SM (01:05:24): Nothing in between. It is either I dislike you or I wish I was there when you were there. PC (01:05:30): Remember when we were growing up and the GI', were all talking about the war and what it was like in the war and how you should be grateful to them because they fought the war and the war was everything. You got to the point, I do not know about you, I got to the point where enough. So, you fought the war and thank you very much, but it's over now so you can go do whatever it is that you are doing. I felt about the GI's, the way you're saying the Generation X feels about the boomers. And I do think boomers tend to overdo it sometimes. Come on guys. There were bad things about us too. We were not the salvation of the world. We did make some mistakes. But I think that is just generation to generation. I have been reading women's history in terms of how the suffragettes... I teach courses in film. That is another one of those things that I do. And one course that I was teaching was the jazz age, jazz age film. And suffragettes felt about flappers the way the women's liberation people of the 1970s feel about young women, particularly young women, Gen X. It was like, oh, look, we were fighting and dying for the right... this is the suffragettes. Fighting and dying and starving ourselves and doing all these things so that you can have the right to vote. And now it is 1920 and you have got the right to vote and a lot of you are not even bothering. And what the flappers were saying to them was, thanks a lot, we will use it if we need it, thanks very much, but that is all we owe you. And you will find a lot of the gen X'ers and I am not sure about millennials, who will say the same thing. Yeah, you worked really hard to get us these rights, but you have done it, so let it go. It is just the way of the world, I think. SM (01:07:39): Well, good point. Very good point. Because the Generation X'ers, they are the ones that were born between (19)65 and (19)80. PC (01:07:52): I was not sure what their date was. SM (01:07:53): (19)65 to (19)80 and then (19)81 begins the millennials, which really have a lot in common with the boomer generation. Not as well-educated though I- Not as well-educated though, I think. One of the issues too is the issue of trust. Do you feel that the Boomers having a problem as a generation with lack of trust? I mention this because I consider personally that not trusting your government is healthy because it shows descent and freedom of speech, and political science professors will actually teach that in the classroom, that it is healthy. But the Boomers even go way too far. They did not trust anybody when they were young in position of responsibility, whether it be university president or the President of the United States or governor, senator, religious leader, or a leader in a corporation. They did not trust any leaders, and that is because they felt they were lied to so many ways and you could not trust them. So, do you think they have passed this on to their kids and we are just not a trusting... PC (01:08:59): I think we should [inaudible]. I think what you say is true. I think Boomers did have a huge, huge trust situation. But I think that really that is a result of having grown up in a situation where it... Like in the 1950s and all leaders were exemplary, all leaders of business were exemplary. You just assumed that these guys were made of good stuff, that they rose to the top of the ranks because they were worthy of it. Then all of a sudden, so that is where you grow up. You start out with being a very trusting person. Oh, if you are an authority, I cannot speak for [inaudible], because I was not a [inaudible] person, but those people in position of authority are trustworthy, honorable people. Then when you get to the time of your life when you are starting to question anyway, big time, whammo, all these cracks appear and so you're not only going through the standard adolescent questioning, but you also have much heightened expectation, much more heightened expectation than you would, excuse me. I just ran up and down the stairs. SM (01:10:27): Oh, how did you do that? PC (01:10:30): Oh, I have got a cell, or not a cell phone. I have got a... SM (01:10:32): Oh, okay. PC (01:10:33): ...mobile phone. SM (01:10:34): Okay. PC (01:10:35): But basically, so you have got people who are brought up to really believe in the system, to really believe in the people who run the system, and then it is hard to take small cracks. But by the time Kennedy is killed, you are starting to see some huge fissures there, and then how are you ever going to trust after that? If you grew up in a fairly cynical background and cracks appear, then you say, "Well, that is life." But when you grow up in this sanctified atmosphere, the 1950s and the cracks appear, you cannot handle it. That is my theory. SM (01:11:15): Yeah. I go back to the 1950s again. I want your thoughts on the beat generation, which was that part of that silent generation that wrote those books, whether Ginsburg, Kerouac, and looked at the beats, how influential were the beats on the Boomers when they were young, and then this one as well. This was the first TV generation, and they saw the news on TV, sitcoms in black and white in the (19)50s. How important was TV in shaping the lives of Boomers, particularly when they were in elementary school? Because yeah, they might not have been able to think politically yet, but they saw shows like Howdy Doody, Hopalong Cassidy, TV westerns in which the Native American was always the bad guy, and the variety shows, the game shows, life coverage of historic events. The McCarthy hearings, if you are young enough to remember them, this man shouting that everybody is a communist, the Mickey Mouse Club, Captain Kangaroo. The media seemed to play an important part consciously and subconsciously in shaping this generation. Just your thoughts on TV and radio and the influence it had on the Boomers. PC (01:12:30): Okay. I will start with your first question first. That is about the beat generation. As I mentioned, I was reading a little bit of Kerouac, but I just want to give you an anecdote from my own personal experience. I started college in 1964, and we were on the old campus then, and it had buildings spread out all over town. On my very first day of college, I went down to get something in the cafeteria and saw a small room off the side of the cafeteria, and I was looking for someplace to eat my sandwich. I walked in there and it is where the beatniks hung out. My hair stood on end. All of a sudden, it was like, "Oh my God, there are such people. These people, there's..." So, I started hanging out there, although I could not... I was still living at home and stuff, so I was considerably restrained, but I got to hang out with beatniks, listen to them talk, listen to their music, listen to their basic assumption. One guy was a guy called Lester Greenberg, and he was actually one of Arand's [inaudible] part-time. She had a lot, but I was so excited, and I have always been fascinated by the beat in general as far as how much influence they had on the Boomer generation, I would say as themselves, not a huge amount, but as far as the CARNA culture, when it started happening, people were reading beatnik literature. So I would say not a huge amount. Me personally, huge. SM (01:14:22): It is amazing. Ginsburg seemed to be everywhere. PC (01:14:27): [inaudible] was. I took a class with Ginsburg. It was a poetry class. SM (01:14:30): You did? PC (01:14:31): Yeah. SM (01:14:32): What was that like? PC (01:14:35): He was so pompous and he was so full of himself that I was really irritated with him. Basically, this was out in Tucson years later, but it was all about, "I am the great God, Allen Ginsburg, and so you are going to listen to every word I have to say, and now you are going to do a few exercises and read your pathetic little poems." So, I was not too impressed. I was impressed by the fact that I had taken a class of Ginsburg. I was not impressed by Ginsburg himself. So, I would say there was not a lot there. But that is, again, these are all just my points of view. But as far as the TV thing, I think that that was huge. I think it was huge because it gave us one identity you had in a way that they certainly do not have anymore. You had your three channels at most, and not even very much PBS then, as I recall. So, everybody saw the same programs, everybody was on the same page, and you kind of felt, if... We got one of the first TVs on our block, we were very popular people during that time. Then when as other people got their TVs, not so much. But I think it was huge, just in terms of the fact that it gave us a single point of reference. I think maybe, and I had not thought about this before until you just asked it now, I think basically that is what coalesced the Boomers, because you all did come from the same spot. With Ed Sullivan, once he brought Elvis Presley in, and then the Beatles, you started going that way culturally too. "Oh, this is what is happening. Is not this exciting?" Again, the media is saying, "This is exciting. This is what is happening." SM (01:16:39): Well, TV westerns dominated television in the (19)50s, and of course, cowboys and Indians and guns and shooting, and did not think anything about the links between war. You just had a good time with your Hopalong Cassidy outfit and everything. PC (01:16:55): Exactly. SM (01:16:56): But I, as a kid, but as later on, I got to think Howdy Doody, I never saw a Black face in the audience for Howdy Doody or Rudy Kazootie or any of those shows. PC (01:17:06): I do not think they did have any. SM (01:17:07): Mickey Mouse Club was all white people. PC (01:17:11): Remember American Bandstand? They started bringing some Blacks in. SM (01:17:13): Yes. Dick Clark. Yep. But I did not, and of course, Amos and Andy was a very big show in the very beginning of the (19)50s, and that was a with African Americans. But there was nothing from that show until about the (19)60s except for Nat King Cole. It was amazing. Of course, the way they portrayed African Americans the way they talked, and it was kind of negative. I think about these later on. PC (01:17:40): Oh, okay. SM (01:17:42): Okay. I got a couple of things here. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? PC (01:17:46): It means a lot to me because, for one thing, I was fascinated by Maya Lynn in her story and the fact that she was the one that designed it. A young architecture student, Asian descent. I thought that whole story was fascinating, right from the giddy-up. But I did a documentary a few years ago on the History of War Memorial. SM (01:18:11): Yeah, I noticed that. PC (01:18:11): So naturally, I was very interested in the Vietnam Memorial, and I had not been there ever until I started working on that documentary. I went down there and I thought, "Well, it is a splash in the ground. It is very conceptual. It is very strong as being a concept, but I am not sure how it will play out 100 years from now when all the people are dead who were in that war or directly affected by that war." So we went there, and by the time I reached the middle, I completely collapsed in tears. There is something so powerful about that memorial, and I wish I could tell you what it was. I do not know what it is. I guess just being overwhelmed by all the names. SM (01:18:58): It has gotten so many responses. Most people think it is... Well, it had a lot of criticism at the beginning, as you well know, when the wall was, designs were coming in, and that was finally picked, that brought up all the divisions again in America that had been in the (19)60s, because a lot of people thought it did not do justice for one reason or the other. But that is kind of waned somewhat. But there are still some veterans that do not like it, and they do not, but most do, but... PC (01:19:24): Well, that is an age-old thing too. Do you want something representational or do you want something abstract. They have their Korean memorial right across the way, which is extremely represents. SM (01:19:38): Of course, the new World War II Museum, which took too long to build. [inaudible] wrote a book called To Heal a Nation. He felt that this wall was supposed to be non-political, and basically heal the veterans and the families and those who served. It may have done a halfway decent job with that group, but he also thought it was going to heal the nation and play an important role. Do you think that walls played an important role in healing the nation from this war? PC (01:20:07): No, I do not think so. I wish I could be more specific. Basically, the wars, one of the things I learned in studying war memorials and how and why they are built and why they look the way they do, is that war memorials are built for the people or for the generation who suffered from the war. They speak to that generation. You in 200 years from now, it is going to be an interesting piece of artwork. That is, it. As far as healing the nation, a wall cannot heal a nation, even a statue cannot heal a nation. I do not think that any piece of material, anything could heal a nation. Possibly a film could, although I cannot think of a good enough film that would have done that. SM (01:21:01): So, what is interesting about the World War II Memorial is World War II vets who fought in Europe are upset with it because it reminds them of Hitler. Hitler had these columns and things like this memorial, and he felt some of them were pretty upset with it. So, it is interesting. PC (01:21:18): So, all triumphant, again, you are talking to somebody who's like, this is the bee in my bonnet. Basically, all triumphant civilizations go back to a classical style. That classical style in this case is the Roman. This is a very Roman kind of memorial. Hitler did it because of the glorification of the Third Reich. But also, if you go back to any... World War II was a triumphant war. I mean, we clearly won, there were clear objectives that were clearly obtained. So, they are going to celebrate that with a triumphant style. We do World War I, that is not at all what those four memorials look like, because it was a very disillusioning war. So, I think for them to say, it is like Hitler. Well, Hitler was like the Romans, and that same sense of Roman triumph is behind this particular memorial. SM (01:22:27): What do you think of Kent State and Jackson State? PC (01:22:32): Kent State was devastating. I remember coming home, I do not remember where I was at the time, but I came home and I was looking at the news on the TV not paying any attention. I see these guys shooting these students, and for some reason it did not register. I said, "What are they playing that old Nazi war footage from?" Suddenly, I realized, this is today. These kids are being shot by American soldiers or by National Guard, and this is happening in our streets. How can this happen? I was shocked, afraid, devastated in talking about losing any shred of trust you might have in the government. That was the final nail in the coffin. SM (01:23:20): What does Watergate mean to you? PC (01:23:24): Watergate Gate was just, I just saw it as same old, same old in terms of, yes, these people are corrupt. Yes, these terrible things did happen. But yeah, it has been going on for years and it is going to go on for years more. SM (01:23:39): What did Woodstock in the summer of love mean to you? PC (01:23:46): Woodstock I thought was exciting. As a matter of fact, I had tickets to go and then changed my mind because of the weather. But I liked that whole thing. It was all a big experiment. It was all something. It was all about music and just relaxing and enjoying yourself. So that is what that meant to me. You said Jackson State? You mean Ole Miss and... SM (01:24:12): Yeah. Jackson State also. Two students were killed three weeks later at Jackson State right after Kent State. So, it was... PC (01:24:19): Oh, I did not, you know what? I tell you the honest truth, I guess I did not pay any attention to that. SM (01:24:24): They try to make sure Ken State that they include both at the remembrance ceremony. So yeah, Woodstock. Yeah. Do you still have your tickets for Woodstock? PC (01:24:35): No. I bet they would be worth a fortune now. SM (01:24:38): They would be worth a lot. Of course, the next one here is, what does 1968 mean to you? I think we have gone over... PC (01:24:44): Yeah, I think we did go over... SM (01:24:46): What does the counterculture mean to you? PC (01:24:48): The counterculture now or then? SM (01:24:50): Then. Because Theodore Rozak wrote that great book, the Making of a Counterculture. It was a big popular book. PC (01:24:58): Theodore Roosevelt? SM (01:24:59): Rozak, Theodore Rozak. PC (01:25:01): Oh, okay. I was going, "I do not know about a counterculture in 1900." Well, the counterculture was the whole network. Everything from SDS to hippies and hate Ashbury. That is what it means to me. Basically, anybody who was questioning and living a different... Questioning the way things were and living a different way than they were taught was the norm when we were growing up in the (19)50s. So that sort of was... SM (01:25:33): Yeah. My next one was just the hippies and the yippies. PC (01:25:38): Yeah, they were fun. They were just absurd. I mean, the hippies were honestly just trying to be left alone and express themselves in whatever way they chose to express themselves. The yippies were just absurd. They were [inaudible] all over again. I remember I went to a talk with Abby Hoffman before he went underground just talking about the yippies. It was all about fun. It was all about the absurd way of driving your point home. It was just another way to do get to do the work. SM (01:26:16): So you saw Abby. I saw Jerry at Ohio State and... PC (01:26:19): Okay, I saw him too later on. SM (01:26:21): Yeah, he had the bandana and the thing on his face there, the lines. But they were two unique and different people in the end. PC (01:26:32): Oh, extremely. SM (01:26:33): Abby was the real deal. I think Jerry was just an imposter in many respects. Even Abby says this later on, even though they were friends to the end. But can you talk about that experience to seeing Abby Hoffman? Because I have not talked to too many that saw him. I never saw him. What kind of, supposedly he had a charisma that was just unbelievable and he made people laugh. PC (01:26:58): He did. SM (01:26:59): But he was also very serious. PC (01:27:01): Well, but see, that was when I was just telling you that I saw Abby Hoffman. It was all about fun. That is where that came from. He was just so, at the time that I saw him, he was actually talking at [inaudible] at the State University of New York at Albany later. But it was before he went underground. He was just talking about, I cannot remember a single word that he said, except that you just had this feeling of joyous, absurd. Let us just have a good time with this. Do not take anything too seriously. Just do this for the hell of it, kind of. That was the impression that I got from him. Just as you said, he was funny. It was laughing. It may have been serious, but you were laughing and taking it all in that. SM (01:27:59): I heard stories from other people that said he made, even the policeman who arrested him, laugh. When he was in jail, he made them laugh. He was just a, well, he was different. PC (01:28:13): Well, he knew that basically life is a joke. I mean, nothing is going to last forever. SM (01:28:20): Your thoughts on Students for Democratic Society and the Weatherman? PC (01:28:25): I thought they were very romantic figures. Now, I think they are appalling. But at that time, even though I did not want to be them, because I could not quite go that extra sort of violent mile, I still thought they were very romantic figures fighting against the establishment and actually using the weapons of the established. Then I just thought, "Great, these guys are romance." SM (01:28:57): Well, but in the Port Huron statement, no one knew that they would end up becoming the Weatherman. So that is what really split SDS is when they became the Weatherman and Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Your thoughts on them? PC (01:29:15): I was thrilled to see that they were speaking out for something that they thought was wrong, and they just did not say, "Okay, so we fought. So, everybody has got a fight." That they said, "There is something essentially wrong here, and we are going to speak out whether we were part of the war or not, right is right," and so I have huge admiration for them for that. SM (01:29:42): They kind of took over the anti-war movement when SDS died right to the very end. The other one is the Young Americas for Freedom, which is a conservative group, but they were also against the war, and they are still very popular. Just came back from a conference down in Washington. The new students are still there. You do not see them a lot on college campuses. Did you ever see them at all, or? PC (01:30:04): No, I never did. SM (01:30:05): That was Bill Buckley's group. Then of course, the Enemies List. We all know about the Nixon's enemies list. PC (01:30:12): Yeah, I think we are all convinced we were on Nixon's enemies list. SM (01:30:17): What are your thoughts also on the Black Panther? [inaudible]. But this is great. A couple things, the Black Panthers, of course, had so many unique personalities from Bobby Seale to Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, H Rat Brown, Dave Hilliard, Elaine Brown, Stokely Carmichael. The list goes on and on here. They, of course, were the symbol of Black Power. They challenged Dr. King and the other civil rights leaders. Then of course, you had Malcolm X, who died in 1965. But even he challenged the civil rights leaders like Byard Rustin. There is two historic scenes that I know your husband was well aware of when I talked to him. Anybody who knows the (19)60s remembers when Stokely Carmichael was next to Martin Luther King in that historic picture. He was telling King, "Your time has passed." Then the other one is the debate that Malcolm X had Byard Rustin, where he told Byard, "You, like Dr. King, your time has passed on. Nonviolence is not the way anymore. It is by any means necessary." Those kinds of things. Your thoughts on Black Power and the Black Panther Party. It has challenged to the established civil rights group, which really challenged America in the (19)50s and early (19)60s. PC (01:31:52): As far as my personal experience with the Black Power guys, I was always a little scared of them because I grew up in a white suburb, and we did not know any Black people. Even my high school did not have any Black students or anything. So then I went to college and there were a lot of Black kids, mostly from New York City. I got to know a few of them, but in general, I was scared of them, just not the [inaudible] point on it. So as far as Black Power, when I thought, "Yeah, I understand why they are doing that, but I am still frightened of them." Interesting because I was not frightened of the SDS. As far as time has gone on, I think the great tragedy of the Civil Rights movement is when they moved from [inaudible] and the demonstrations of the (19)50s and (19)60s to the [inaudible], the violence of the Black Panthers and stuff. That was too bad because the original guys who were working non-violently to get where they were going, had the ideals had, it was not slogans to them. They were literally willing to put their lives on the line. I never got that feeling from the Black Power guys. They were willing to put my life on the line. SM (01:33:29): I know that David Horowitz, who used to be the editor of Ramparts, you know David? He went from being extreme left to being a conservative speaker, and he attacks the new left, the old left, the Black Panthers in particular, because someone he worked closely with was killed. He blamed one of the Black Panthers of doing it. He changed immediately and he attacks them constantly. But there were a lot of good things that the Black Panther Party did, the food programs. So there was a lot of really good things. So we tend to concentrate more on the radical aspects than some of the good things they did. But there is truth to it. One of the historic points is at Kent State University, you will not see an African American student at that protest. They were instructed by their... PC (01:34:18): Kent State? SM (01:34:19): Yeah, at Kent State, back in 1970, when the killings took place, there were no Black students, because Black students were not supposed to be at anti-war protests around 1970. They were together. In the late (19)60s, white and Black students were working together against the war. But then there was a split and Black students concentrated on what was going on in America. White students continued to fight for what was going on in Vietnam. So there was a big split there. You saw that even in the early (19)70s at Ohio State with the Afros and kind of more of a separation kind of aspect. So, everybody has different feelings about that period. PC (01:35:01): Yeah. SM (01:35:02): How important were the college students in ending the Vietnam War? We're talking about, and why did the Vietnam War end in your opinion? PC (01:35:11): I think college students were very important in bringing the whole issue to the forefront. They were not just going to let it sit back there and simmer. So I think that the way it was done with teachings, with closing down the schools, with the demonstrations, constant demonstrations and constant organizations, I think they were very, very important. Why did Vietnam stop? I think that there was a lot of truth to the fact that it stopped because there was not popular support at home. I think that the government, the people who were serving in government saw that this was not going to get them reelected. I was in a demonstration in DC I think it might have been the last one, and we were marching toward the White House, like a zillion people were marching toward the White House, and suddenly from the opposite direction came all these kind of thoroughly steamfitter, pipe fitter Union 109 kind of guys. I thought, "Oh, this is it. This is where we get our heads bashed." In fact, they carried these signs saying, "[inaudible] 109 Against the War in Vietnam." I went, "That is the end, guys." When those guys are joining forces with the students, there is no way they can keep this war going that much longer. So, I think that the reason it stopped is because finally enough people said, "There is no point here." SM (01:36:51): I know there was that historic scene in New York City where the hard hats wanted to beat the crap out of the anti-war people. Remember that? That was in the late... PC (01:36:59): [inaudible] I thought were-were... SM (01:37:00): Yeah. PC (01:37:01): That is when I saw those guys. So by that time, they had all come around like, "Why is my kid dying in Vietnam? What's the point here?" SM (01:37:10): You were in college from (19)64 to (19)68? PC (01:37:13): Yeah. Then I sort of dropped out ish, sort of, the end of (19)67, I dropped out. SM (01:37:23): Where did you get your degree? PC (01:37:24): I got my degree at... Well, I went to the University of Arizona when I moved there and took some credits there, plus combined them with the credits from the State University of New York and then a community college. I had picked up a few credits there that were applicable. By that time, the State University of New York had a program called the Regents College in which allowed you to take all your credits, acceptable credits from whatever colleges or universities you have gone to. Because of the way, I guess because of the mobility of so many people, you could get your degree finally from there. So that is what I did. My degree is from the Regent College from the university. I think it's called the University of New York State College. SM (01:38:11): Yeah. I went to SUNY Binghamton. You probably know that. PC (01:38:13): You did? SM (01:38:14): Yeah. So that is my school, undergrad that is. I went to Ohio State to grad school. The question I want to ask you, and this is very important to me. I am one of those guys that never missed a lecture, debate, forum, or whatever. I went to everything at SUNY Binghamton in Ohio State, everything. But do you remember, you already talked about that you saw Abby Hoffman, that Allen Ginsburg was one of your teachers. Was there a professor in any of your classes that truly inspired you and why? Secondly, who were some of the other speakers or programs that you went to when you were in college that really had an impact on you or that you remember? PC (01:38:57): Oh God. Well, as far as speakers, there was, remember I was always an artsy fartsy kind of a gal. But they had a week with three, it is funny, they had a week with John Cage, Merc Cunningham, and Robert Creeley, the three heavy hitters of basically, they were all beatniks too of the art scene in New York. I spent the whole week going to workshops and discussions with them. So that was huge. SM (01:39:31): Wow. PC (01:39:34): I am sorry, what was the first part of the question? SM (01:39:37): It was about the people that if, was there a professor that really inspired you in your undergraduate years? Just the way you taught the messages that were delivered that inspired your sense of learning? PC (01:39:51): That really, really inspired me. There was a history teacher whose name I do not remember, but you can see I [inaudible] they inspired me. But he did ask the question. I mean, he did open my brain to ask questions I had not thought of before. But my Shakespeare teacher was the one that opened my head to Shakespeare, and suddenly I realized he was not so boring anymore. Aside... Oh, I had a teacher, he was a speech, what was it? Speech interpretation, kind of performance art kind of guy. His name was Kevin Quinn. He was a friend of Andy Warhol's, and I do not know how he ended up in Sunny, but we all hung out together. As a matter of fact, Warhol or whoever, you know how Warhol always had look-alikes impersonate him? SM (01:40:48): Yes. PC (01:40:48): So either Warhol or one of his crew was at one party, but they used to hang out together. The reason this guy really influenced me was because he would crack your brain open in terms of the people, the writers. He would open you up to the questions he would ask, the basically cultural and art stuff that you would just see and understand and less of that. His apartment was always open to everybody. So he was very influential in saying, "How does the world work? What is art all about?" That sort of thing. The fact that he hung out with that whole factory crowd. SM (01:41:38): Yeah, yeah. Of course we all know about Edi. I read the book on Edi, which was... PC (01:41:44): What a tragic figure. SM (01:41:45): Yeah, what a tragic figure. She is beautiful too. She did not live very long. But the question, you are the first person I really talked to outside of David Lance Goins out of Berkeley, who is an artist from the Free Speech Movement. What was it about the arts from the (19)60s that were different than anything else? What was it about... From the (19)60s that were different than anything else. What was it about the art that was comparable to what was really happening? We all know about Andy Warhol, and we all know about Peter Max because Peter Max had all those posters on college campuses. I do not know if many people think of anybody beyond Warhol and Max. PC (01:42:19): The poet... I mean, there was a whole lot of poetry stuff going on and then there were of course happenings and all kinds of performance, but film started opening up. And that is one of the things also that completely changed my life. In the 1960s, they started things called film studies. This is when they started to actually study film on campus as a legitimate form, just like literature or art or sculpture, architecture, whatever. Film was another thing that you could study. And right from the very first classes, I went and said, "What is all this about?" You get to see movies. Well, that is nice, but you found out how to look at movies. How do movies influence you? Why do you feel the way you do when this happens? What about this camera angle? And it was completely, to me, that is when they legitimized film. Film was a legitimate medium before that. But when they started taking it seriously so that you could actually say, "Here is a whole new medium for us to work in." And I think film is the medium of the Boomer generation. It is more, music is now, film has become... Video and film has become very basic for the generation. But at that time, it was almost the same kind of explosion that happened in Russia when the beginning of film happened. When they started taking their cameras around, when Vertov took... Man with a camera, the saying, going on... All that excitement that happened in France when film was starting. And then of course, in the (19)60s, you had the New Wave in France, "And here is something else you can do with film and here and here and here." So, I think as far as the arts go, in the (19)60s and (19)70s, it was all about film. To me. I mean, there was a lot going on in poetry. There were a lot of experiments like Pynchon's the Crying of Lot 49, and some seminal books like that. But it was all about film. SM (01:44:31): Of course, when you think of the (19)60s, we have got to also think about what is going on around the world. Because we all know what was going on in France and Paris, and exactly what was going on in Hungary or what was going on in Poland and when Dubcek was overthrown in 1968 too. And of course, what was going on in Spain and England and all over the... Italy. I mean, there were protests, even in Japan. There were protests and a lot of them were against the war. But when you look at the film... Because I am only... Not too many people talked about the film. What were the films that really defined the Boomer Generation that you feel... It does not always have to be the (19)60s and (19)70s, but what are the films that you feel truly defined the generation? PC (01:45:15): Well, Easy Rider was giant. I think that as far as... If we are starting from the (19)60s, I think Easy Rider was giant. I think that Bonnie and Clyde was giant because it changed the language of film. This is going to sound bizarre, but Rocky and Bullwinkle. SM (01:45:42): On TV? Oh, yeah, I remember they were on TV when we came home from school. PC (01:45:47): Right. And the thing about Rocky and Bullwinkle was these were adult cartoons, masked as kids cartoons. And people started watching them. But that is a different thing. That is not... We are not talking about films here. I am trying to think of some of the other huge films that would have made an impact across the board people would see... I saw stuff like It, from England, the English school, so I do not know how many people saw that. A lot of people saw the Secaucus Seven, and they were involved in that kind of thing. I am trying to... Forgive my senility. I know that after we get off the phone I will- SM (01:46:31): I have a lot of movies that I remember had influence on me, but- PC (01:46:34): Oh, can you say some because- SM (01:46:35): Yeah, well, The Graduate was one. PC (01:46:37): Oh, yeah, of course. SM (01:46:39): And Zabriskie Point. That was a real (19)70s kind of thing. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid was a real big film. I remember when that came out with Paul Newman. And some of the other ones, of course, Taxi Driver and Coming Home. PC (01:46:59): Okay. I never did see Coming Home. SM (01:47:01): Those are Vietnam films. In terms of African American films, I thought Shaft was unbelievable. And in some of those kinds of movies that were out in the early (19)70s, Black film. Let us see. Well, Easy Rider, Five Easy Pieces. Anything Jack Nicholson was in. Also the movie where he played the... Later on, the person who was mentally disabled. PC (01:47:36): Jack Nicholson played him? SM (01:47:38): Yeah. He was in the sanitarium. PC (01:47:42): Oh, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. SM (01:47:42): Yeah. That was a major film because no one had talked about this issue ever. And it was in a film. So those kinds of films... And then when I think of the (19)60s, I think of Love Story. PC (01:47:57): Oh, yeah. I remember that one. SM (01:47:59): Goodbye Columbus. Anything Ali McGraw was in because she was miss (19)60s. PC (01:48:09): Then the Way We Were. SM (01:48:11): Yeah, The Way We Were with Barbara Streisand, because that remember... Even though that was about the 1930s, and it was in early (19)70s, it made me... Brought tears to my eyes, because I knew then that I would be doing the same thinking 30, 40 years from now about the (19)60s. So yeah, there were a lot of them. PC (01:48:30): That is when we really started talking to each other through film. I mean, film had always been around, there would always been film aficionados. But it was, I think in the (19)60s that it exploded. And that was partly because of the fact that film studies programs opened up, but also partly the fact that cameras started getting smaller and you started being able to take... Oh, that was another one. Do not Look Back. Bob Dylan's thing, which I thought it was never going to end. SM (01:48:59): There was the Beatles films too, which were very interesting. PC (01:49:02): Exactly. SM (01:49:03): And Apocalypse Now, which was a classic film. PC (01:49:06): And West Side Story. SM (01:49:07): Yeah. West Side Story. And- PC (01:49:09): I saw that a hundred times. SM (01:49:10): Sound of Music, which is... You can go on and on here some were... PC (01:49:15): Exactly. SM (01:49:15): Yeah. The Pink Panther film- PC (01:49:17): Was important to the Boomers. As far as Boomers in the Arts, I think that that is where their energy started going. SM (01:49:24): Right. And then in the course in the (19)50s, well, there were major films that I saw. A lot of the westerns. So anyways. A couple other questions here, and then I will end up with some questions on individual people. I got so many questions to ask you here. I have different questions for you, and I had them for David. What were, again, I just wondered, what were the books that you were reading when you were in high school and college, and what were your friends reading? Does not necessarily have to be the beatnik books. PC (01:50:00): Yikes. Well, of course there was... Why did my brain just go blank, please? I read a lot of Herman Hesse, I am trying to think how far back that was. I think that was later. I read Catcher in the Rye. Well, I do not know why my brain- SM (01:50:20): He just died. Salinger. PC (01:50:22): I know. SM (01:50:23): That is the only book he ever wrote. PC (01:50:25): Well, no, I read everything he wrote. He wrote Franny and Zoe. SM (01:50:29): He did not write very many novels though, I do not think. PC (01:50:32): Well, Franny and Zoe was sort of... It was a little episodic, but so, definitely everything he wrote, which was not that much. What did I write? You mean of that time? SM (01:50:48): Yeah. Books that may have been... That people were reading. PC (01:50:52): I am trying to think. Pynchon, as I mentioned. And what was the one about the guy? Oh damn. Well, Leonard Cohen wrote a lot of poetry. That, and of course there were a lot... Again, there was a lot of poetry that I was reading. People like Bob Kaufman, Carolyn Getty. Again, these are sort of going back to the beats, but that is what I was reading in early college, late high school. I am trying to think what else because I read constantly. SM (01:51:39): I am from a little later, and I know Greening of America was a big book by Charles Reich. PC (01:51:45): Right. I remember that coming out. SM (01:51:48): And Making of a Counterculture. They came out the same time. PC (01:51:50): And None There Call it Treason. As I mentioned, being a good Goldwater girl. SM (01:51:57): Now, the musicians, I love it. In Charles's book where he does in the introduction about all those musicians. He has got a whole page of them. I do not know if you- PC (01:52:07): Musicians? SM (01:52:08): The musicians of the era that had the greatest influence on Boomers. And then he, you turn the page and there is about 150 of them. But I mean- PC (01:52:16): Yeah, that is because we had the radios. SM (01:52:18): He forgot an important person. He did not put Phil Oaks down, but- PC (01:52:22): I know, I like Phil Oaks a lot. SM (01:52:25): Well, I am going to bring it up on Thursday that... I was trying to think. He missed seven people and groups that I thought should have been in there. But I will mention that to him. Maybe he can add it in an updated edition. PC (01:52:36): There you go. (01:52:37): Another, I always liked the Michener books. SM (01:52:42): The what? PC (01:52:42): Michener. James Michener, like Hawaii. SM (01:52:45): Oh, yes. He wrote Kent State too. 1970. PC (01:52:50): Exactly. And To Kill A Mockingbird. Yes. I like that one. And Winnie Ille Pu. Remember that? SM (01:53:00): Yes. PC (01:53:01): Winnie the Pooh in Latin. (01:53:04): I liked that a lot. SM (01:53:07): The musicians that were your favorites. I know you can... You know after those 150. PC (01:53:09): The entire British Invasion. You can start with the British Invasion, but Motown also. I think it is easier to do categories than it is individual- SM (01:53:21): Yes. PC (01:53:22): But Janice Joplin certainly was my hero. Jimmy Hendrix not so much, I liked a lot of the stuff he did, but more Janice Joplin. More Big Brother and the Holding company. I like Peter Paul and Mary. SM (01:53:42): Yep. PC (01:53:42): A lot. I like The Limeliters a lot. So I mean, basically that goes across folk and... I like folk, but I did not like people like Pete Seeger, who actually the real folk- SM (01:53:52): Is not it amazing that in... And you can see the division right here. When the Beatles came in (19)64, I can remember (19)65, (19)66, (19)67. Then around the Invasion came in six... But you had, before that you had Herb Albert and the Tijuana Brass. That was very popular. And then you had Frankie Valley and the Four Seasons and Frankie Valley, and you had those kinds of groups. Little Anthony and the Imperials, Sam Cook in the early (19)60s, and then all of a sudden it all changed. PC (01:54:25): Exactly. SM (01:54:26): And they were still very important. But you saw the change, but they were still a very important... Beach Boys were earlier, too. You saw that they were all important except in different stages of your life. PC (01:54:37): Exactly. Well, I was never a huge Beach Boys fan. I had friends who were. Who really liked the California kind of sound. But I was more, what I call into minor key stuff. Although I did not like jazz as much. Now I do. I like jazz a whole lot. It depended on the jazz. I love Dave Brubeck, but did not like Thelonious Monk. But in general, I would say the British Invasion, Motown were the two biggest influences. And I also liked classical music. SM (01:55:20): Right. PC (01:55:21): Too, and a little bit... And I loved the blues. Every once in a while, we would go to a blues club. SM (01:55:27): San Francisco, I used to live out there. They used to have great blues festivals at Golden Gate Park. I want to... Here the presidents now. These are the presidents that were part of the life of all Boomers from the time they were born from (19)46 on. PC (01:55:43): Okay. SM (01:55:45): Harry Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama. Now, Obama makes a claim that he's not a Boomer, but he really is. He was two years old in (19)62, but I guess you really cannot call him a Boomer, but he was in that era. PC (01:56:06): [inaudible] prejudice. SM (01:56:07): But of all those presidents, you have already talked a lot about Kennedy in terms of his assassination, but when you look at the influence that all these presidents may have had on the Boomers, is there some presidents that stick out more than others? PC (01:56:22): Oh, I wish you had just asked me who my favorite was. SM (01:56:24): Yeah, who is your favorite? PC (01:56:26): Carter. SM (01:56:27): Carter? PC (01:56:28): Yeah. I was so surprised that he actually won, because I did not think he had a chance, and I felt like here is finally an honorable man after his predecessors. And so I was thrilled to death that Carter had won. But as far as who was the most influential, well, you would have to say Reagan, whether you agreed with him or not. Certainly a huge influence on everybody's life. Johnson was a man everybody hated. But when you look back at what he actually accomplished, it was amazing. It was really good for this country. I grew up thinking Eisenhower was a president. I mean that... If the word president and Eisenhower were [inaudible] for each other. Nixon of course, again, was the ultimate bad guy to me. So, I do not know as far as who was the most influential, probably Nixon and Reagan, in terms of direct impact on people's lives. SM (01:57:49): I always bring Truman up and people say, "They were only 2, 3, 4 years old." But even though I was a young kid, I remember him because- PC (01:57:58): Do not really remember Truman. SM (01:57:59): The Buck stops here. And he did not like, and he did not like McCarthy. And it was well known that he did not like him. PC (01:58:07): MacArthur. SM (01:58:08): Or, yeah, no McCarthy. Well, he did not like MacArthur either, but during the McCarthy hearings- PC (01:58:15): Oh, I see. Okay. SM (01:58:15): He thought he was a nutcase. And of course, Eisenhower was always the old smiling guy. You felt good that you had a grandfather in office. Then you had a young guy coming in. Then you had Johnson, who should not have been president, but he was because of assassination. Nixon coming back from... Unbelievable how he won after losing in 1960. Then you have Ford, who many people say, was not the smartest guy in the world, but he tried to heal the country. PC (01:58:43): I certainly, I always gave him credit for that. SM (01:58:46): Then you had Reagan, and then Bush I during the Gulf War, and Clinton and Bush were the... But Clinton and Bush II were the only two Boomer presidents. Some people in my interviews have said that you can tell that Bill Clinton and George Bush, number two are Boomers. What do you think they are saying by that? PC (01:59:04): Because they're so... Well, certainly Bush too was a Boomer. He just happened to be from the [inaudible] point of view that I was of this sort of absolute belief that he was correct and that his way was the only way. And that he would... you know, "Screw whatever you guys think. I am doing things my way." So, I think that is true. As far as Clinton goes... I think he is Boomer-esque. SM (01:59:37): When you look at the eras again, when I kind of defined the Boomers into five eras, their elementary school years, their high school and college years, then their beginning of their careers and their twenties, and then... So, I break it down into the (19)40s, (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s, and then the (19)90s and beyond. Can... In just a few words, how have the late (19)40s and the (19)50s influenced Boomers? PC (02:00:10): I think that the way they influenced the Boomers with the groundwork for a really stable... I mean you... For really stable life. I mean, you can count on things. You feel safe. You know your place in the world. So, the late (19)40s and the (19)50s did that. They gave you sort of the box to work in. SM (02:00:35): Explain the (19)60s. PC (02:00:37): Is there any explaining the (19)60s? The (19)60s, basically everything blew up. All of our basic assumptions blew up. All the new... From 1964 from The Beatles on... All the experiments in popular culture completely exploded. What are we going to do? All the possibilities were there. First we were shattered through Kennedy's death. And then... Oh, you know what I am leaving out is the entire civil rights movement, which was hugely important, I think. SM (02:01:20): Right. PC (02:01:21): In terms of fighting the bad guys, righting the wrongs. Doing something that would help the world, that people could individually do things that help the world. So that could go back in the (19)40s and (19)50s, I guess, but also in the (19)60s. So basically, I would say (19)60s were the time when the world blew up. SM (02:01:43): How about the (19)70s? PC (02:01:44): The (19)70s were the time when we went... I think that we went from changing the world to changing ourselves and became very inward. It kind of... And at that point started this whole self, self, self-thing. SM (02:02:03): You think we went from being a we to a me? PC (02:02:07): Yeah. I think so. SM (02:02:09): What did you think of disco? You cannot talk (19)70s without it. PC (02:02:11): You know what? I like that music. It is a terrible thing to say. I am sure I am politically incorrect, but I really like disco music, and I like the whole Saturday Night Fever kind of... SM (02:02:22): Yeah. I am a big Barry White fan, so... I think Barry White will go down in history is one of the greatest musicians of all time. And it is a little early to talk about it, but when you look at all the things he wrote and produced, oh my. And we only think about his records. I did not know he was producing concerts at major facilities all over the country. I did not know this. PC (02:02:45): No, I did not know that either. SM (02:02:47): No-no. He is much more than what we saw. He was a true musical writer. He was a kind of a genius. He knew how to play music, but he knew how to write it. And even a lot of the greats from the (19)60s could sing music, but they did not know how to write it, so they kind of experimented. How about the (19)80s? What did the (19)80s mean? PC (02:03:07): The (19)80s was when I was homesteading, so I was kind of completely out of it. I mean, we did not have a TV and we did not have radio. We were up in the mountains and raising our farm animals. So that is kind of hard for me. Although I was staying politically active. I was part of the sanctuary movement in Tucson. I do not know if you remember that. SM (02:03:29): What's that mean? PC (02:03:30): Hmm? SM (02:03:31): What is that mean? PC (02:03:32): Oh, there was a movement called the Sanctuary Movement that helped... Was like an underground railway kind of thing that helped people who were escaping from Guatemala and Central American countries get to safe havens in the United States. And they were illegal actually. They were being run through a Presbyterian church in Tucson. And churches... Well actually, they were pretty much church based. So I volunteered to help out with them when I could. But being up in the mountains, there was not that much I could do. SM (02:04:11): Explain the (19)90s to today. PC (02:04:14): Depressing. SM (02:04:16): That is all I need to hear. Okay. I can say depressing in what way? But then the... Okay. (02:04:29): Let me... There is something here, before we get into the individuals. When you think of the Civil Rights movement, we have not talked a lot about it. Dr. King was obviously crucial. The big four, which was James Farmer and Whitney Young, Wilkins and King, certainly Malcolm X and what he did in the (19)60s. And then we talked about Black Power and some of the changes there. And some of the people, the followed King have been the leaders of the last 20, 30 years, like Andrew Young and Jesse Jackson, and the list goes on. But the Civil Rights Movement was a great role model for the other movements that came in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. The women's movement, the environmental movement, the gay and lesbian movement, to Chicano Native American. You all kind of looked at the Civil Rights movement as a model on how to do protest and non-violent protest, those kinds of things. What are your thoughts on the lengths between these movements and the Civil Rights movements. And secondly, during that period, if you saw Earth Day in 1970, you seem to see all these groups together. All caring about the environment, but as time goes on, you do not see them together as much. They have kind of gone their separate ways, but still involved in the serious issues. So just your thoughts on the movements and their links to the Civil Rights movement. PC (02:05:56): I think you are right when you say that the Civil Rights movement basically gave people a background to know how to organize. Know what worked and what did not. It was kind of an empowering kind of thing. And so, I think you are right when you say that that had a tremendous effect on the other movements, if for no other reason, and that taught them logistics. As far as the environmental movement and the way it brings people together, I really... Because I was totally involved in well, being a homesteader, being alternative energy, all of that stuff, I believed in it, but I really do not feel qualified to say anything about how it worked with other movements. SM (02:06:49): All right. One of the things... When you look at pictures, pictures often say in a thousand words, photography is very important to you- PC (02:07:02): Right. SM (02:07:02): Your career. When you look at the times that Boomers were alive, particularly when they were young, (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, and (19)80s, what are the pictures that may define the generation? In fact, I remember four of them, four pictures that stand out as four of the top hundreds of the 20th century. But when you think of that period, what are the pictures that stand out in your mind? PC (02:07:25): Well, the little girl running in Vietnam that she had just been napalmed. SM (02:07:30): Yep. PC (02:07:31): Remember that little girl? SM (02:07:31): Yep. Kim Phuc. PC (02:07:33): The Kent State. The pictures that came out of Kent State. Wait, I am getting stuck in the (19)60s. Germany. They need to go. SM (02:07:40): But those are two important ones. PC (02:07:42): They are. I am just trying to... God, there is so many. I am just trying to pinpoint… Some of the Avedon things, just the way he handled his pictures. True, they were mostly like fashion shoots, but they were also portraits. And so, the portraits that Avedon did, particularly of Yoko and John, you remember that one- SM (02:08:15): Oh, yes. PC (02:08:16): Kind of partially curled up. So that was just from an artistic point of view. Politically... There were some from Nicaragua that are just kind of hazy in my head now. Oh, I am trying to think. I do not know. It will come to me. But those two pictures, the first two that I mentioned I think- SM (02:08:44): Well, one of the picture... Well, the third one I was thinking of that is really there, is that the athletes were their raised fists at the (19)68 Olympics. PC (02:08:49): Oh yeah, of course. Of course. Yeah. SM (02:08:51): John Carlos, and then Eli, that historic picture of all... Before they were murdered. The group- PC (02:08:59): Oh, and there is that guy kneeling in the street of Vietnam too. SM (02:09:02): Yes. PC (02:09:03): That is getting... he is being shot in the head. SM (02:09:05): Yep. PC (02:09:06): Yeah. SM (02:09:06): That one was there as well. And of course... So, you, you have got quite a few of the classic ones. Also, when you think of phrases that define the generation. I came up with three phrases that I felt define the generation, I want your response. One person... Well, several people gave me a fourth, which I will mention. The three are Malcolm X, number one, where he said, "by any means necessary," which is the more militant, some might say, violent aspect of the period. Bobby Kennedy, using Henry David Thoreau's quote, "some men see things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not." Symbolic of the activism and the questioning of the era, wanting to make a difference. And then the Peter Max poster that was hanging in my Ohio State graduate school room, which was very popular in 1971, which stated, "you do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." Which was kind of the hippie kind of mentality. And then not the other people gave me a fourth one, which was, "We Shall Overcome," which is symbolic of the Civil Rights Movement and the coming together. Is there any slogans that... PC (02:10:24): Well, the ones that instantly popped mine were "Burn, Baby, Burn." SM (02:10:28): Oh, yeah. PC (02:10:29): Which is very indicative of the whole... About what was going on. And then there was Corretta King's "War is not good for children and other living things." And there was a third one that also... Oh yeah, "Tune in, turn on and drop out." SM (02:10:48): Good. PC (02:10:48): I think that that was a really important one that people thought about. SM (02:10:54): Timothy Leary. PC (02:10:55): Exactly. SM (02:10:56): Yeah. (02:10:57): One of the things when we talk about the Civil Rights movement is the sexism that took place within that movement. And that is oftentimes the reason why the women's movement was stronger than it may have been as kind of a shoot off. Were you well aware when you were in college and in your twenties about the sexism that took place and most of the movements that men were in charge and women were kind of second class? PC (02:11:22): I think we did not even think about it that much. I mean, this is the way it was. And later on, when we really started thinking about, "Oh, I am a woman. I can have a say too, other than whispering in my honey's ear at night, and maybe he will take the idea to the rest of the guys." I think we... I was not aware of the sexism because I just did not think in terms of that. It was like, oh, the movement and the guys leading it, and this is the way it is. And that is why one reason for me, Angela Davis was really important because you have this really strong Black woman who was like a leader. That was different. SM (02:12:10): And she was not... A lot of people think she was part of Black Power... I mean, Black Panthers, she was not a Black Panther. She- PC (02:12:14): [inaudible]. SM (02:12:17): She was involved in the prison system with George Jackson and to Black Power, but she was not into the Black Panther party. PC (02:12:27): But she was a real spokesperson. SM (02:12:29): And she still is. She is still writing good books. Why do you feel the term Vietnam and Quagmire, just to bring that those two words up in any conversation today, bring so much tension. PC (02:12:42): Oh, does it? SM (02:12:45): During the Iraq War, and certainly Afghanistan, when we were going over there and people were making comparisons, people said, it is another quagmire in Vietnam. Here go the Boomers again. PC (02:12:57): That interesting because that... It never occurred to me that it would make any... Because it is so obviously true. I guess I never ran into that reaction. SM (02:13:07): Well, it happens on university campuses, particularly amongst Boomers. And so, it is almost like if you even bring up Vietnam and Quagmire, it is like, well, here is the new left again, or here's the bringing back everything that happened back then again to what is happening today. PC (02:13:26): Oh, interesting. No, I had not run into it. SM (02:13:28): And that happened during the Gulf War, too, back in the (19)90s. PC (02:13:31): Yeah. SM (02:13:31): Some of the Vietnam vets talked about it. Let us see. I am almost done here. (02:13:42): One of the things about activism... And you obviously, I think you have been an activist during your life. Activism is different than volunteerism. Today on college campuses, volunteerism is at an all-time high. I would probably say over 90 percent of students are involved in volunteer work of some kind. PC (02:13:58): Wow. SM (02:13:59): Some of it has required and some they just do it on their own. And that is been happening since the (19)80s. So, you cannot be critical of the last two generations of students for volunteerism. But I have always felt that that is not activism, as you define it. Define activism as a 24-7 feeling and living a seven days a week and 365 days a year. And I feel that universities today are afraid of that term "activism" and they do not like to use it. Do you have any sense or feeling that that is a word that people are afraid of today? The term "activism?" PC (02:14:38): I think people have always been afraid of the word "activism" because I think that basically people have said, "Oh, she is an activist. That means that she is strident, she is judgmental, she is angry at the world." So, I do not think people have at any time really felt comfortable with that word. And so, I am not surprised that campuses which do not strike me as bastions of left wing... They are no longer hot beds of left-wing activity. I do not think that they would be comfortable with that word anymore. SM (02:15:19): Of course, the critics- PC (02:15:20): Because nobody is because everybody is kind of threatened by the word. The minute we say activism, they start thinking about closing down college buildings and basically marching of the street’s kind of... SM (02:15:32): Course the David Horowitz is in Phyllis [inaudible] of the world say that the universities are nothing but liberal. PC (02:15:40): I know. SM (02:15:40): And education is the worst it has ever been according to their point of view. PC (02:15:45): Yeah. Well, what can I say? I just... SM (02:15:49): The last question before I just ask the names of people for you to respond, then we are done. Why did the Equal Rights Amendment fail in your opinion? PC (02:15:58): As I mentioned, I just read a book about it, and so basically my opinions are pretty much- PC (02:16:03): And so basically, my opinions are pretty much the same as the book. Between the time they actually passed the amendment and put out to the states to ratify, and the time that they were supposed to be ratified, a lot of states had done what they needed to do to correct the situation in legislation for women. And so it was no longer such a strong issue. For one thing, it took forever to get through. But it was no longer such a strong issue, but then when it came time to vote for the amendment, people would say, "Well look, we have already got the law, they already addressed this situation. So, I think that is why it failed in the end. SM (02:16:47): When Reagan came into power, he made a speech, first speech he said, "We are back" and the place went crazy in a room where he spoke. And then when President Bush one said, "The Vietnam Syndrome is over," he said, "The Vietnam Syndrome is over," and everybody stood up and clapped their hands. It is not only how they said it, but what they said that still implies division in the country. What do you think Reagan meant when he said, "We are back," in 1981 when he became president? And what did President Bush mean in 1989 when he said the Vietnam Syndrome is over? PC (02:17:30): Well I think Reagan really meant the conservatives are back, "You have had your revolution, now it is over. We are back and we are going to take charge." As far as Bush one, I really was not familiar with that speech but I would suspect that his definition for the Vietnam Syndrome might be that, "We are going to have a war and you're not going to protest it to death." I do not know, that is just my hunch. SM (02:18:00): And in 2004 when John Kerry was running for president, the Vietnam veterans that came out against him, remember? PC (02:18:10): The Swift Boat guys? SM (02:18:10): Yeah, and the Vietnam veterans against the war, the divisions were still there. It was amazing some of the terrible things that were said about him. It is indicating that the battle is still continuing. What were your thoughts when you saw that? PC (02:18:24): Well I kept thinking, "The conservatives have the media," period. And so they're going to pick up stories like that. I do not know that that was an everyday kind of thing. I think that the divisions that are in this country are definitely far huger than any other seen in my lifetime, far more divisive, far more profound than at any time and uglier. SM (02:18:47): Could you explain that because this is still the lives of Boomers? PC (02:18:52): It is still the lives of Boomers, but basically the divisions have happened during the last, what, 20 years? SM (02:19:03): Mm-hmm. PC (02:19:04): Wait, but this is 2010. During the last 20 years a lot of it is from the media. Do we take responsibility for the entire division of the country? No, I do not think so. I think that X'ers who are now in their, what, their forties? SM (02:19:21): Mm-hmm. PC (02:19:22): And more, they are certainly a huge part of this. Things have just gotten uglier and uglier and I do not think that you can blame the boomers for all of that. I think it is about time that the X'ers stand up and start taking responsibility about some of their responsibilities in all of this. SM (02:19:48): And actually, some of the millennials because they are now of age to work. PC (02:19:49): They are now of age to work but they have not had the chance- SM (02:19:52): Right- PC (02:19:53): ... to basically really influence the culture the way the X'ers have. And yet the X'ers will influence the culture and say, "Look, it is all the Boomers, it is all the Boomers." I am sick of it. SM (02:20:04): Yeah. Okay, now we are finally down to the names and the terms, and then we will end it. Just very quick thoughts, very quick thoughts. Your thoughts on Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. PC (02:20:15): Two different people. Abbie Hoffman, iconoclast. Do you just want words? SM (02:20:20): Yep. PC (02:20:21): Okay. Abbie Hoffman, iconoclastic, had a great point. Okay, and that is all I will say. And Jerry Rubin was very serious and turned very sold-out. SM (02:20:42): Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. PC (02:20:45): Tom Hayden, I think, was a sincere guy who stuck to his beliefs or has stuck to his beliefs. Jane Fonda is a child of her century or a child of her generation. She has explored all the different areas and become a lot of different things and in a lot of different ways. SM (02:21:06): Talking about movies, she did Klute and then she also did the one with her dad. Which was... PC (02:21:12): On Golden Pond. SM (02:21:13): That is another classic film, coming to terms there. Timothy Leary. PC (02:21:19): Tim Leary was a very smart guy who basically saw absurdity for what it was and decided to bring drugs to the masses. SM (02:21:27): Smothers Brothers. PC (02:21:29): I loved them, just really amusing and smart in the way that they presented their politics. SM (02:21:36): Laugh-In. PC (02:21:38): Again, very smart in the way it presented what it had to say. And it was just a good time. SM (02:21:49): Huey Newton and Bobby Seale. PC (02:21:53): I think they were sincere radicals who live what they believed. SM (02:21:59): Benjamin Spock and Norman Mailer. PC (02:22:03): Benjamin Spock was a very interesting guy in terms of being a doctor and influencing the way that Boomers were brought up in the first place. And then, continued to delve into what his beliefs really were. I am sorry, who was the other one? SM (02:22:20): Norman Mailer. PC (02:22:22): I do not really know enough about Norman Mailer to make a good statement. SM (02:22:27): William Buckley and Barry Goldwater. PC (02:22:30): Good old Barry Goldwater was an idealist from the right. I think he was a straight shooter and I think that he really did do what he believed. I am sorry, who was the other one? SM (02:22:47): William Buckley. PC (02:22:48): Buckley. Okay, I never agreed much with what Buckley had to say, and yet I really felt that he thought things through. He was funny, he was smart and he actually said what he believed in an articulate way. SM (02:23:06): Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. PC (02:23:10): Spiro Agnew was a clown and dispensable. Richard Nixon was cracked I believe, but a very smart guy. And he was just insane. SM (02:23:29): Dwight Eisenhower and Gerald Ford. PC (02:23:32): Dwight Eisenhower was like grandpa. He was the definition of the presidency. When I grew up I felt that he was benign. I still feel he was benign. Gerald Ford did his best, as I said earlier, to heal the nation. I think he was a sincere guy who did the best he could under an amazing set of circumstances. SM (02:23:59): Joseph McCarthy and Eugene McCarthy. PC (02:24:02): Joe McCarthy was an ideologue. If he could have been Hitler he would have been. He was a manipulator. I think that Eugene McCarthy was a very sincere guy. Well he certainly was not as politically savvy as he needed to be to get his stuff done. SM (02:24:24): George McGovern and Robert McNamara. PC (02:24:28): Robert McNamara was a liar and he was an opportunist. Eugene McGovern- SM (02:24:39): George. PC (02:24:41): Oh, George McGovern, sorry. SM (02:24:42): Yep. PC (02:24:45): I do not really know enough to say. He was an idealist and he tried his best, but he was ineffective, I thought. SM (02:24:52): How about Sargent Shriver and the Peace Corps? PC (02:24:57): With both of those, great idealism and an effective way to actually put your idealism to work. I think that it actually mobilized a generation. SM (02:25:09): John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. PC (02:25:12): John Kennedy, I used to think a lot more of him than I do now. But he was articulate, he knew how to mobilize the idealism of the people under him and the idealism of the nation. He had a lot of good things that he did. He had a lot of really terrible things that he did. Robert Kennedy was a sly dog. He was obsessed by certain ideas that he followed. SM (02:25:48): Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. PC (02:25:52): Martin Luther King, Jr., I think really, he had his finger on what I believe in, which is non-violence as much as possible. I think that he was an amazing organizer. He did not have too much respect for women but that is his issue. And so I think he was effective. As far as Malcolm X goes, I can certainly understand why he felt the way he did, and yet it is very hard for me to accept somebody who advocates violence the way he did. SM (02:26:25): Lyndon Johnson and George Wallace. PC (02:26:29): Oh, interesting combo. Lyndon Johnson was the ultimate politician who was the smart guy in terms of knowing how to manipulate people and manipulate the system, the situation. And I used to think a lot less of him than I do now. But at least he used his power to get social programs through and to do a lot for this nation. George Wallace, I do not know what to think of George Wallace. He is certainly, obviously not flavor-of-the-month with me because I do not believe in any of the things he believed in. But aside from that I have no... SM (02:27:15): Okay, Ronald Reagan and Hubert Humphrey. PC (02:27:19): Hubert Humphrey was ineffective, and that is why he did not get to be president. And Ronald Reagan used all of his abilities as an actor to get to where he wanted to go. He believed in what he said he believed in. I think he was honest that way but I also cannot agree with his policies at all. SM (02:27:46): Okay, Daniel Ellsberg and Daniel and Phillip Berrigan. PC (02:27:51): The Ellsbergs and Berrigans were friends of my sisters, so I believed in what they did. I believed that they did what they believe to bring the issues to the American people. And if you had to do that by dramatically pouring blood on some draft files then that is what you did. But I am not aware of how much they did after that, besides writing. SM (02:28:21): How about the women leaders, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Freidan, that group. PC (02:28:28): Three different people. Gloria Steinem, I liked the way she's handled her involvement with the women's movement. Everything from her essay on being a Playboy Bunny so that people could see what it was actually like being the glamour girl of the movement. Bella Abzug and Betty Freidan, very serious women, very driven by their vision. And flexible, certainly, on Freidan's part. So, they do not leave a huge impression beyond that. SM (02:29:16): Tet, which was very important in (19)68 and John Dean. PC (02:29:23): John Dean, I will do John Dean first. John Dean, I hated him because I thought that he was so whiny, just like the whole rest of the Watergate guys and arrogant. He thought he could get away with anything and then, whammo, he was off to the slammer. And so I had no sorrow for that piece of information. The Tet Offensive was appalling and I think it was hard for anybody to trust after that [inaudible]. SM (02:30:03): Muhammad Ali and William Kunstler. PC (02:30:06): Muhammad Ali, I liked from the minute he hit the world was his Cassius Clay-dom. I liked the way he made poems. Even though he would say appalling, "I am the best," that kind of stuff, I never really felt that he took himself all that seriously. He promoted himself, to be taken so seriously, I do not think so. So he was amusing and he was valuable because he was amusing, but he also made the statement that he needed to make about the Vietnam War and the other thing. And then William Kunstler, I never had a huge since of anything was real clean. He was there. He was partaking of history, but I had no strong... SM (02:30:52): How about the AIDS crisis and Harvey Milk. PC (02:30:58): Oh, the AIDS crisis. I am sorry, I thought you said the age crisis. The AIDS crisis was so badly handled. And so many more people died because of screw up than had to. It's been really sad. And then Harvey Milk, I do not really know that much about him. I know he was a good guy. I know, essentially, what he did, particularly for gay rights. And I think it was horrible that he was murdered. But I do not have any strong feeling. I do not know much. SM (02:31:35): How about the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64, and Stonewall? PC (02:31:41): Free Speech Movement, I loved the idea but I thought they got silly about it. Because free speech is not about being able to say fuck. Free speech is about being able to say, "This guy is a crook," or "There is something wrong here." So as far as the actual use of the naughty word, I thought it got too silly. [inaudible] said it was [inaudible]? SM (02:32:09): Stonewall. PC (02:32:10): Stonewall. Stonewall was just heartbreaking, serious. SM (02:32:20): And Earth Day. PC (02:32:22): Earth Day is, it is a nice little celebration. SM (02:32:29): When the best history books are written on the Boomer generation, whether that be 50 years after a particular era or after they pass, what do you think sociologists and historians will say about the Boomer generation, their legacy? PC (02:32:50): It depends on who is writing it. SM (02:32:52): Good point. PC (02:32:52): If it's Generation X they will do nothing but cream them. If it is, say, an unknown generation many years down the road, basically it will depend on their point of view. Whether they're the kind of people that like to tear things apart and rebuild it. How do people look at the French Revolution? I think that is what it is now. Basically, the terror that happened after the French Revolution, some people say it was a good thing. Some people say it was horrible. So I think that will be the same, the same way of viewing it. It depends on your need for structure and your need for stability as to how you will view the Boomers. SM (02:33:42): What do you hope your legacy will be once you are gone? And I know you have said a lot of things already, but how did you become who you are? PC (02:33:54): What I would hope my legacy would be is that I inspired people to do something greater than they thought they could do, or to see things, to see the world around them. That is what I do in my movies. What made me who I am, a number of things. I grew up Catholic. That was extremely influential. I was taught to always go for the ideal, to never be happy with the status quo, to work for the poor, blah, blah, the poor, the underprivileged, that kind of stuff. So I think that had a huge influence. And then of course, my family was very staunch Catholic, too, so they did, as well. SM (02:34:55): Yeah, it is interesting that Charles, in his book, talks about the difference between John Kenney and Eugene McCarthy. And their Catholicism is pretty interesting. PC (02:35:06): Oh, really? SM (02:35:06): Yeah, if you read the introduction. I had not seen it before, because I knew that Senator McCarthy did not like Bobby, and we all knew that. PC (02:35:14): Right. SM (02:35:14): But I thought he liked John more. Actually, he did like John more as time went on. But there were problems in the (19)60s and Charles did a very good job in his introduction of explaining the differences. McCarthy thought he was a better Catholic than Kennedy. And a lot of it had to do with when he made the comments about whether he could be president of the United States and that the Catholic Church would influence his decisions because he was a man of conscience. Well McCarthy took offense to that and said, "I do not think Kennedy has a conscience." But he did not attack him for his Catholic faith, but John Kennedy looked at that as attack. And so, they were not very good friends for a while, but when he died McCarthy gave a great speech showing a lot of emotion. PC (02:36:02): Yeah. SM (02:36:04): Yeah. So, anyways, the last thing I want to ask you is here, because on your [inaudible], what does stone pilgrim mean? PC (02:36:14): Oh, as I mentioned, I am a person who hunts down public sculptures. And so therefore, I am a pilgrim of stone or bronze. SM (02:36:23): Have you been to Gettysburg? PC (02:36:25): I have not. That is always been on my to-do list, but it is not a place I have gone. SM (02:36:30): I go there four times. You have got to come because what is really interesting about Gettysburg, you drive on the southern side and you see all these little confederate flags left. You never see anything left on the north side. PC (02:36:40): Really? SM (02:36:42): No, nothing. It is always the South. Yet when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly last week, she said that the South has healed much better than the North, that the North has never healed from the war and the South has. And so we even got differences of opinion as to who has healed from the Civil War. But one of the things that you mentioned, which is very interesting, you said in your frequent journeys to Europe you provided scope. Her occasional jaunts to South America and Asia have jolted her. Your perceptions and assumptions about the world, what are those? PC (02:37:17): Okay, I am sorry, what did I say? SM (02:37:19): "Her frequent journeys to Europe provide scope to her views. And occasional jaunts to South America and Asia have jolted her perceptions and assumptions about the world." PC (02:37:30): Are you talking in terms of just South America and Asia? SM (02:37:33): Yeah, yeah, because it is on your website. PC (02:37:36): Okay, well, specifically I have gone to Taiwan, which is where my nephew lives. And I assumed, basically, that they would be very concerned about their relationship with China. And also, as far as talking to people who have been to Vietnam, I assume the same thing. It turns out that the generations now could care less. And that really jolted me. I thought the people who lived there would be completely political. They are not political, certainly not in Taiwan, not terribly political people. They just want to get on with their lives, and in Vietnam the same way. From the people I have talked to in Vietnam they do not even know the war, they do not want to know the war. They just want to get on with life. So that was a real jolt. As far as South America goes, we have been to Bogota, which is where David's son lives. At first, I was terrified because I thought, "Oh, my God, we are going to be kidnapped." But the thing that jolted my assumption there is you get so used to it, it's just like walking around the corner, "Now I am in Newport, Now I am in Bogota." It is the sameness, the ordinariness. Not the sameness, but the ordinariness of life there. And the same thing in Taiwan. You expect everything to be so exotic, but in fact, it is really very ordinary, but with different trappings. And so that, I think, is what shapes my assumptions. SM (02:39:16): Why? PC (02:39:17): Why you think it is exotic is because it is not here. SM (02:39:21): This is the last question, so believe me. I have been saying that. But why do you feel that religion seemed to be so important in the (19)50s? Bringing up in a Catholic Church, I am sure there was a lot of people coming to church. I went to the Methodist Church, my grandfather was a minister. PC (02:39:36): Oh. SM (02:39:38): And he was actually raised a Catholic but he rebelled because his father abandoned him and his brother, so he rebelled against the Catholic church and became a Methodist minister. It is a long story. He was the minister of the first Methodist church in Peeksgill, New York from 1936 to 1954- PC (02:39:57): Wow- SM (02:39:58): ... when he retired. And then went and moved to Manhattan and passed away two years later, he was very young. But then it seemed like something in the (19)60s. Just, people were not going to church, synagogue or anything. There seemed to be a lessening of numbers. And I was wondering, was that part of everything that was happening, that people were challenging the church, too? PC (02:40:22): Do you think that those numbers dropped in the (19)60s or after the (19)60s? SM (02:40:25): They were dropping in the (19)60s, in the (19)60s and (19)70s. PC (02:40:27): Okay, well among the young people there was certainly a lot of questioning going on. SM (02:40:34): Right. PC (02:40:38): I think it is because the breaking apart of the basic assumptions of society, that this is what you do, this is how you do it. And then once you open that can of worms, you cannot hold it together anymore. SM (02:40:56): Right. PC (02:40:56): Basically, people are not going to only question, " Well, is this political party, right?" But they are also going to say, "Do I really have to go to church every week? What is the point of this?" That whole breaking apart and saying, "What is the point here?" Basic assumptions, what are the basic assumptions here? SM (02:41:17): Yeah. I was knocking my brain to remember when I first remembered a minister giving a social message. I remember they were always dealing with what was happening in the world. Because I went to church in Cortland, New York when I was a kid growing up. Dr. Nason gave great sermons. And I went to my grandfather's church and he gave great sermons. They were always dealing with religion and God. And I was wondering when the church started making political commentary about what was happening in the world. I know Dr. King did it all the time at his church. PC (02:41:51): Right. SM (02:41:52): And I know probably, Dr. Nason. And they were all doing it, but they were doing it in much more subtler ways than Dr. King. Then everything seemed to change. In the (19)60s ministers and rabbis, they were just about like anybody else. They were starting to give political commentary in church. So, I was wondering if that may have turned people off. PC (02:42:13): Well I went to Catholic grade schools and Catholic high school. And we were taught a lot about questioning and [inaudible] there. And so, we would be more likely to get a priest talking about the rightness or wrongness of a war, or whatever. SM (02:42:36): That is good. PC (02:42:38): But I think you are right. I think in general it did not happen very often until the (19)60s. And then you had that whole brouhaha over liberation theology. The Vatican came out against it. SM (02:42:56): And then, obviously, seeing the Berrigan Brothers and Malcolm Boyd and- PC (02:43:03): Exactly- SM (02:43:03): ...others that is out there on the front lines, Rabbi Heschel. They were not- PC (02:43:10): You have got the Quakers, always- SM (02:43:11): They were not the norm. But then they ended up trying to become the norm, though. Was there any question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask? PC (02:43:21): I think you covered everything. I was very interested to find out whether you were going to cover birth control. That was my big thing, I suppose. I said, "Well if he is going to talk to a woman he is probably going to want to talk about birth control." But aside from that, no, I think that you have covered everything I can possibly think of. SM (02:43:36): I know I expect to talk to David. Somehow and some way I have got to get your pictures. Normally, I take pictures in person. Then I am going to put them at the top of each of the interviews. So, at some juncture in the next month, would it be possible for you to send me a couple pictures, and David, a couple pictures of both of you individually? PC (02:43:53): Yeah, sure, no problem, I will [inaudible]- SM (02:43:56): And I do not know if you have my mailing address. PC (02:43:59): I have got your email address. SM (02:44:00): Let me give you my mailing address. It is- PC (02:44:03): Okay, wait a minute. Wait-wait-wait-wait. SM (02:44:05): Certainly. I am going to take Charles' picture in person this Thursday. PC (02:44:09): Oh, good. Love that. SM (02:44:11): My address is 3323- PC (02:44:15): Wait, I cannot find my pen. SM (02:44:17): That was like me, I am always short on pens. PC (02:44:20): All right, I am just going to open a Word document. Okay, I am sorry, 3320- SM (02:44:26): 3323 Valley Drive, V-A-L-L-E-Y Drive. PC (02:44:29): Okay. SM (02:44:30): In West Chester, and West Chester is two words, Pennsylvania, 19382. And I am, of course, Steven R. McKiernan. PC (02:44:40): Okay, great. But you want the pictures via email, right? SM (02:44:44): Yep. Or email, or mail them in person. If you can send them in person I would prefer it through the mail. PC (02:44:55): Okay, I will see if I can... SM (02:44:56): Yeah, two different ones of each of you. And if David has a picture of him in front of his book case or you have a picture of you in front of a bunch of art, I would even love that. I would love to have a close-up, if possible, of both of you. But then, David's a scholar. And I have gotten a lot of pictures of scholars in front of their book shelves or at their desk where they write. And then, you are an artist and a writer. So, if you have a background, too, that will be great. PC (02:45:21): Okay, great. SM (02:45:22): And, well, I am glad I talked to you Patti. PC (02:45:25): Well thank you so much for calling. SM (02:45:26): You and David are a great couple. Have a great day. PC (02:45:30): You, too. SM (02:45:30): Bye. PC (02:45:31): Bye-bye. (End of interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Patti Cassidy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cassidy, Patti ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Political activists--United States; Cassidy, Patti--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-22 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.33a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.33b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 165:33 Description An account of the resource Patti Cassidy is a playwright and producer. She wrote her first play on a dare in a Mexican border town in southern Arizona. From then on her work has been produced from LA to Paris. Cassidy currently is co-producing a series of readings of plays in the greater Boston area. She has a Bachelor's degree in English Language and Literature from SUNY Albany. https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/96beb7494bb3b853195d287bb3b6bc81.jpg e4cdcbb58ea75a688320e9841f41cd4b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/13a1f59be9541edce86b843d238aaa2e.mp3 dccdab1cb59d2d7cd59c36206e296159 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-12-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mandy Carter Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the \&quot;1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005\&quot;.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:7043,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the "1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005."</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Activism; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Woodstock; Baby boom generation; Voting Rights Act; Civil Rights Movement; Race Relations; Women's Health; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; LSD; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; Free Speech Movement; LGBT&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Activism; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Woodstock; Baby boom generation; Voting Rights Act; Civil Rights Movement; Race Relations; Women's Health; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Black Panthers; Richard Nixon; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; LSD; John F. Kennedy; Lyndon Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; Free Speech Movement; LGBT</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 135:15 Subject LCSH Human rights workers; African American sexual minorities; Carter, Mandy--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Mandy Carter Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 3 December 2009 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 SM: Testing, one, two, testing. 0:07 MC: Because what I thought was so unique about the (19)60s that of course, you know, you are running rattling off these names of people. And I do not know about other generations, I guess what did they call the (19)50s? The Beat Generation? And I do not know. 0:21 SM: Yeah, sometimes, you know, the silent generation two or World War II. 0:25 MC: Yeah. But what was intriguing to me is that I thought it was I thought it was interesting. Those of us born too young to be a part of the Civil Rights Movement, but just the right age to be smack dab in the middle of the Vietnam Movement. But what strikes me, Steve, and I am just like, come up in some of your its just the continuity factor of so many of us that when we got involved, we got about the big picture. It was not just only the Vietnam War, it was not only about you know, women's right to choose to it was this broader perspective of equality and justice, and I think that so many of us who are still active, still involved. And in a way, I think the demographics when I last saw when I left saw them that post World War Two baby boomers, roughly 78 million of us and thinking, what kind of impact that can have and it has to be so real I think the Obama stuff, what impact that has on a culture when you have that many people that kind of came from that generation? I am just intrigued by that. And maybe your book might get to the heart of all that is how else do you explain some of the people you are rattling off? That are there are still here and what they believe in is just a constant. I am just intrigued. 1:44 SM: Well you know for me, yeah. So, anyway, one of the things to, what I have made sure that I tried to get the book conservatives in here too, because I interviewed Charles Murray, you know, the Charles Murray and I interviewed Ron Robinson for the Young Americans foundation Ed Filner from the Heritage Foundation, Dr. Lee Edwards, a historian at that group, I have interviewed David Horowitz. And I am trying to make sure, I am hoping that one of the goals of this project is also respect and, and an understanding of that each individual, whether you like them or not, are deserving of integrity. I have always, I have always looked upon the definition of integrity as people who stand for something who are willing to stand up in front of a room and speak to people knowing there might be people out there who are going to disagree or dislike what they have to say, but they have the courage, but they had the courage to stand up for their beliefs. And so, this project could be something that could bring people together, even different opposing points of view politically. So, yeah. 2:52 MC: I totally agree. And I have to tell you, when I think about all the movements that we have all been a part of, and, you know, nowadays, sometimes I think so people busier-busier getting your 15 minutes of fame that they would have no really no integrity. But I remember some of our opposition, depending on which side you go on that, but you have to respect what they believe in. They believed in it, they lived it, they talked it. And-and I am really glad you are going to do that. Because without that it would be to be almost skewed, would not it if you did not include? 3:19 SM: Yes. 3:21 MC: Both sides on that I agree with you. 3:22 SM: And I have been trying, you know, trying to get Phyllis Schlafly. You know, some people say no, because they are busy, but you got to make the effort. And that is what I am trying to do. And I saw the first question because you brought up the fact that you are a perfect example of longevity. And you mentioned some of your peers who have lived this life throughout their entire lives of activism in different areas. But one of the criticisms that we often read about the boomer generation is this issue of longevity and how do you feel about the members of the generation overall, whether they be black, white, gay, straight, uh, or any ethnic group in terms of if they were really committed when they were young, have they continued their commitment into the beginning of I guess old age, 62? Just your thoughts on the generation itself? Are you? Are you do you have positive feelings towards the boomer generation or negative? 4:21 MC: Absolutely positive. In fact, I would almost say that is why I am I mean, I if I was not doing his work as an activist, I would love to be a demographer with people who do demography, people who do demographics. Excuse me. Because I am thinking that one of the constants I think that is really helped me, and of course, this is all before the internet. And now the technology which you could use on this little switch on your computer, you have access to everything, prior to those days. I think a lot of us that were getting involved as is first because you had people who were standing up there to explain a folk singer that started out as a teenager, she is nearly 70, who is still believing what she believes in about nonviolence and is consistent in that. And you see that as an example, and I think for me now, maybe this is, maybe this is the defining factor, maybe Steve, I think for those of us who believe in the concepts of nonviolence, and social change, maybe our style or what we believed in, one reason why I am still doing all this work is because when I was bumping into groups like the American Friends Service Committee, the Quakers, the War Resisters League, they talked about the philosophical underpinning of what we did every single day with equality and justice for all. And when you have that as your philosophical underpinning that it does not matter what the issue is coming down the road, and especially in my opinion, I do not know how you feel about this, but the society has such a short attention span it is like I own at a time, I am only going to do women's organizing. Only going to do the work and Vietnam, I am only going to work on nuclear, you know, disarmament, not realizing that there is some kind of constant that keeps you in the ready. Alert. And again, prepared to say that this is multi issue, organizing and as a woman of color, thinking about the struggles I have gone through as a woman, as a person of color, and as a lesbian. How many times have I been down that damn road? So, when I think about that, and I even now when I go out and do public speaking, I was speaking at a black college here in Durham, and it was some, you know, black colleges where, you know, they do not want to really talk about the gay thing. Now, more students are saying, wait a minute, you know, we know we have got gay folks in our black community. Yeah, it is an issue. But I say to them and long before they were coming after us for being black folk and slaves in this country, who do you think was at the receiving end of not having anything in this country, then it was people of color, you know. So, when you when you when you draw it that way and realize it is about kind of a rights issue, people listen to that differently, I think Steve, and I think young people, there is just an attitude of, you know, whatever, I do not care, even in, even in the black, you know, black folk. When I think of youth, I think they are going to be the ones who really will make a difference. But, but that has been my experience. And I think the other final thing I would say on that is, I think people like collinear, and others, a lot of us are bridge builders. Some people are not bridge builders, but I have always been a bridge builder, and where did I learn that you know, the Quakers and nonviolence and how you have to be in a position to see both sides, be willing to kind of go both places, wherever that might be, and willing to take some risk, willing to take some criticism. I have had black folks say to me, Mandy, you are black. I do not want to hear one word about you being lesbian. Yeah, I have been in the NOW and you know, the National Organization of Women setting where I wanted. I want to hear about you being a feminist. Here one word about you being lesbian. Mm hmm. And I said, I am like you all like, you know, take me or leave me. But you got to take all of me. 8:18 SM: That is interesting, because we did a national tribute to Bayard Rustin. Several years back and in our department, we brought a lot of people into because Bayards from Westchester. 8:28 MC: And I- 8:30 SM: And, uh, and we took I took a couple students down to Washington DC and one of them was the president of the Black Student Union and we went to see Courtland Cox who was a close friend of Byard, Rustin, actually, he was a mentee of buyers, who worked in the Clinton administration and we were sitting down there and I could not feel I thought that these young men, both African American young men knew the Byard Rustin was gay, but certainly this president of BSU did not and when Courtland was talking, he mentioned that he was gay and I could see the face on the leader the of the BSU because he is anti-gay. And, oh my, and I did not know that until that particular moment. And I saw right there the divisions between the black and the gay community and the African American community. So, that was kind of a revelation. And he said, my minister just taught me that it was that it is wrong. So, he was not really a supporter of the conference. And so, and I could see it, I want to ask you a question here. What, what specific event in your young life turned the light bulb on in your head with respect to changing your life direction? I know you went to high school I was reading you went to high school, I think in Schenectady, New York. Schenectady, New York. Yep, I know. Well, because I am from Cortland/ Ithaca area and so, I am from New York State. So, I know and, and some but what was not in your high school years and said this just is not right or, what was what was the turning point that kind of helped to aided in in your career path? 10:06 MC: Well Believe it or not, Steve, it was a, we had a social studies class. And I remember I was like, that is a freshman when it goes freshmen South when you go, how does it go freshmen- 10:18 SM: Sophomore, junior senior- 10:22 MC: So, my junior year, and our social studies teacher brought in someone from the American Friends Committee to talk about AFSC. This is like in (19)64, (19)65. And this one person came in this is the only time I ever met this person came into our class and was talking about the work they were doing down south and the Civil Rights Movement. But when he was talking, I, you know, I had to back up a minute the fact that you are going to maybe call this magic moment is interesting, because you know how sometimes you would something happens to you and at the time, you have no idea the impact it is going to have on your life years and years later. Well, this young man who came in from the American Friends Service Committee talking about the Quakers, um, the work they were doing down south, but two things he said that really just perked my heart and my head up. And that was when he made the comment about the power of one. But you know, we live in a society where basically we are always told every day, there is not much you as an individual can really do. But if you really think about it, each and every one of us has to impact change as a person, the one that struck me, but the other thing he did at the end of the class, because I was like, all ears at that point, you know, I mean, you know, you are sitting up in Schenectady what do you know from nothing? It is you know, GE and you are really detached from the, you know, Vietnam was really was not an issue at that time. But then he said something interesting, he said at the end of the class, and if any of you would like to come for a- one-week high school work camp in the Pocono Mountains, sponsored by the American Friends Service Committee, raise your hand and we will get you there. I raised my hand, and I went, and that one week in the Pocono Mountains of a high school work camp with the American friends Service Committee. The literally changed my life because I was my goal was to be a doctor. I was on a track to be a medical doctor and all that. But I went to that one week up in the Poconos. And I said, I am out of here and got the California the institute and blah, blah, blah. But that was what happened. That one class that one class made all the difference in my life. And here I am all these years later because of it. So, that would be it. 12:33 SM: My gosh. Well, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 12:39 MC: You know, I have to tell you, it is interesting, because, you know, I would probably have to say, coming from New York and moving to San Francisco. I mean, I just do a little quick timeline. I graduated high school in 1966. I was living in an orphanage. It was called the Schenectady Children's Home and the way the law works in New York is that you are a ward of the state. When you turn 18, you are on your own. And I have been a ward of the state since I was born in New York. And I did good in school and the directors of the Schenectady Children's Home where we all went to Mount Pleasant High School said, Mandy, if you decide you want to go on to college, we will pay for the complete thing. But you have got to stay in school and I said, I was interested in the beginning, went one year to Hudson Valley Community College, but then by that time, I was really agitated wanting to really figure out what I wanted to do. I had gone to the AFSC high school work camp, and I made a decision I dropped out. I dropped out of college, which meant I lost all my funding. Hitchhiked down to New York City spent the summer in New York in 1967, and then hitchhiked out to San Francisco with a couple of friends in the at the end of summer, and got to the Institute in 1968. And that is how life has been. To me the (19)60s was a generation "this is what I have to figure out". The Civil Rights Movement had just ended, Martin Luther King had been assassinated. John F. Kennedy had been assassinated. Bobby Kennedy had been assassinated to have those three murders happen in a lifetime of a generation. I do not know if we will ever-ever have that replicated again, and the impact that had and add to that remember, the Cuban Missile Crisis. 14:22 SM: Oh yes-yes, (19)62, 196- 14:26 MC: And I remember in New York, they were given last rights on the radio and then feeling like you know, your life could be over any minute. There was such a sense of urgency, Steve, that I always thought, why am I going to be doing this? I might not be around long enough. Why do not I do the world's safer to I can at least know I will be around long enough. And I think there was a whole generation of us that this kind of error era that it I think it just had a profound impact on how we viewed life, how we saw things and then we thinking we have got to dedicate our lives to figuring out how social change could really change all of that. That would be the thing I would say would be unique. 15:05 SM: When you look at the boomer generation, what would you if you were to list some characteristics of some of the strengths that you saw in the generation some of the weaknesses, what would they be? 15:17 MC: Folk songs, I thought I thought that whole era of you know was you know, named mom, Judy calm. Joan Baez, you know, Crosby, Stills, Nash, that whole kind of what I would call acoustic music. But what was on the radio, it was like folk songs. I think that certainly set a tone in terms of what kind of music you were hearing or you know, Buffalo Springfield, I thought that was interesting. And of course, living in California and being at the heart of the whole anti draft resistance movement. By the resistance, I was living in San Francisco, that resistance with David and all those folks down in Palo Alto, and we were doing demonstrations of the other day. And so, because we were at the heart of being able to maybe stop some of the Vietnam War Machine, if you will, with the, uh, ports where and the- were guys had to go further to be inducted, it just seemed to be like the heartbeat. So, maybe my perspective might would be different than if I was living in, you know, down south or something like that. But another-another method would have to would have to have been Kent State. I think Kent State and remember, there had been some other black kids killed before that on some black schools, but Kent State, I think it just made people realize this government will do whatever it needs to do and it will kill our own people. What a rude awakening that was. I would say certainly the murders of Kennedy, [inaudible] Kennedy at Kent State, you know, it is just- it seems like it is-it is-it is impossible to believe that these things could happen. We are in the missile crisis? How could that happen? 16:56 SM: When you look, when you look at the generation [inaudible], would you consider mostly positive or whether some negative qualities within the within this group? 17:05 MC: I would always see it as positive. But I think that you know, I was also living in the Bay Area when the Black Panthers came around. And as a black person who was a staunch pacifist, I was asking what in the world of these black folk doing with guns up at the state capitol? Do they not realize that I do not care how many guns they carry, look at the price these black panthers paid? And when I think about the Panthers, what people do not remember or they should that they had some of the best programs going on over in Oakland. They had breakfast programs, they had programs going on in the neighborhood. And I saw that side of it. And I could not understand Steve why a group that would be so dedicated to the community. They are the ones that brought in the afros. I mean, look, look at the size of bandits. Angela Davis is outgrowing, get rid of that? You know, James Brown with the slicked down hair and the process and they said you know black is beautiful. And then to go from that message to an off the pigs And, and it was just, and I know for me it was rough choice to be around my black people in. Hear, "well, you know, we are going to support the Panthers, do you?", And I said, "I am not I am not going to be supporting the Panthers not with the guns". I like the idea of doing the breakfast program and working in the neighborhood. What is up with that guy and look at the price these people paid, get murdered in jail, and why they thought guns would work. I do not it is beyond me. It did not. 18:25 SM: You were there in San Francisco during the summer of love. 18:29 MC: I was there during the Summer of Love. 18:30 SM: What was it like being in the Bay Area? You are the first person, ah well David obviously was there. But the first the first person that was really talked about it except describing it. What was it like being in San Francisco in the summer look? 18:45 MC: Well the first place we went of course because we were moving down I was I actually ended up one a part of my part one of my jobs I got just because I had no place to live. I was living in Central Park and I was living down in Washington Square Park, but this is like (19)67 so it is like not it is not it was not bad. It was like just the thing that you did. You know in New York, we were called luck children who go to, you know, California. But I remember I had run out of money. I was walking down in the East Village, West Village. And there was a sign hanging on the door that says, Come on in free lunch or something. And it was run by Tim Leary. It was called the Lead for Spiritual Discovery, LSD. Do I need to say more? And here is the negative. This is one of the negatives I saw. So many young people were going to all these, you know, like New York and San Francisco. Do you know who and if you wanted a place to stay, they would give you free housing. But 99.9 percent of the people sitting down there were men trying to hit on all the women coming into these places, and it happened to me. And I said to the people who were who were running this place, I said, you know, what, I would like to find a place to stay and of course, all the end of the night, it is all these guys. That is all they were doing. It was just despicable when I think about it. Mm hmm. And you know, after the first night, I said, what my choice was one guy or three guys down at the dock. That was my choice. And I turned to the running display says that you need to know this is not good. They said, well, Mandy, is there anything we can do? And I said, you know, is there a way I can work for you or in exchange for a place to stay that is safe? And they said, yeah, you could work here and answer the phones. And that is what I did for the whole summer, Steve, when I work place the whole summer. Oh, but when I think about how men in my opinion, it happened out in California, when we got out there the same thing. They were just sitting on all these women, and if you were willing, and I thought about that, and How sick is that? Yeah, that was the downside for me. 20:44 SM: One of the things some and you know this from probably hearing it on the news, and then criticisms of the boomer generation for the problems in our society over the years, I remember in (19)94, I think of Newt Gingrich when he came to power, um, some of his comments, were that, you know, because a lot of the problems in American society are directly related to the (19)60s. And of course, George Will over the years has written pieces on it. And other people have made comments who were against the liberal left or anything they can to kind of downgrade that era and that generation and the things that happened in the (19)60s in the (19)70s. Criticisms like well, the drug culture, the breakdown, the American family, the divorce rate, a lack of respect for authority. This was a creation of the victim mentality that many people today saying is out there because of that era. What are your thoughts on those critics of the boomer generation who believe this? 21:45 MC: I do not buy it. And what I find fascinating is that maybe now this is just my opinion, but when you think about who was sitting in those offices, while we were trying to beat that war back, it was Dwight Eisenhower, John F. Kennedy, Lyndon B. Johnson, Richard Nixon and maybe a lot of us are kind of like we are waiting for a moment when we would have enough numbers to make a difference. And you know, who then ended up being Bill Clinton? And-and so, you know, when I think about now, you know, there is I mean, we would have predicted during that time, how many times for those of us who were out here trying to end that war in Vietnam, and again, a lot of us were too young for the Civil Rights Movement. All we heard was, your rosy eyed never going to happen, you cannot make change. That is all we ever heard. And then we found out when the Nixon tapes were exposed, and someone like the Dan Ellsberg talk about a magic moment, Daniel Ellsberg, who used to work for the RAND Corporation, bumped into people like Randy Keeler and David Harris. Right. And what led him to get to give out the pentagon papers that was about a magic moment, Steve, and that probably did not work to really pull back the veil-veil? Of what was said versus the reality of what they were doing and I think that a lot of us were thinking, we can make a difference. We have made a difference. But we had to wait until almost the presidency of Bill Clinton after Ronald Reagan. So, it is easy to always blame someone or say something. It was not I realized, Steve, that Vietnam War was over. I remember how I said you earlier that a lot of us who had longevity understood it was not just a particular war or a particular issue. Mm hmm. A lot of people went back to school, they got married, they had children, no disrespect, you know that that was part of what you know, they almost put off their lives to try to end this war. And they did. And then people kind of asked, well, then you want me to come back out and do what now? I mean, like, you know, civil justice issues, we are continuing on that lives and you see people now who are of the (19)60s generation, but look at the (19)70s they bring to the table and-and I think that is part of- In my opinion, in a way, you go Clinton then you go eight years of George W. Bush who never should have been in there. And then you get of all people, Barack Obama with the timing. I mean, tell me history did not have some kind of a path happening here. And I have a lot to think in my opinion of that to the (19)60s has direct impact. That is me. I might. 24:19 SM: Well, that-that is interesting. One of the things about the (19)60s and early (19)70s, and a lot of people think the (19)60s go right to about 1973, (19)74 when some changes took place. 24:31 MC: But especially when that war ended in (19)73. 24:34 SM: Yes, but there were so many movements, the Civil Rights Movement that the I guess the question I am trying to ask is, how important was the boomer generation and the people that were young during that time and in their ongoing links, today with these movements, and I am talking about the civil rights movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American Movement and the environmental movement. And, you know, how important were the youth. And again, we know that you are you are have had longevity and you have mentioned the Joan Baez and others. But really, the leaders of those movements continued to lead those movements as they aged. 25:18 MC: Now this leads to an interesting point, and I am really glad you asked it that way. Maybe what I was trying to say is that I think another lesson we learned especially after the murder of Martin Luther King I think everyone realized was that if you if you have a cause, and if you do not try to hold up one person who winds up being the head of that cause, because if you kill them, you kill the movement. [dial tone] is-is that the cause is really what has got to be the continuum, not you. So, if the leadership gets older, they move on or whatever, it is the cause that ends [dial tone], excuse me, that ends up and I remember a distinct I remember in the leadership of what I would call our generation, why women got damn sick and tired of men running everything including the resistance because it was always male with men-men- men-men, the Civil Rights Movement, namely a woman other than Coretta Scott King and the person who sat into Montgomery Bus Boycott, you would be you would be hard pressed to hear anyone get. 26:14 SM: Dorothy Height might be another one. 26:16 MC: And, Dorothy Height, but you know, but I mean, three, um. And so, I think you know, when you when you saw movements that were so which is one reason why I think the women's and feminist movement really took off. People just got tired of always feeling like we were here, we were here we were doing the work, but the figureheads who got to get the press. It was always the men and I think a lot of women said, besides just fighting for the rights as women, Steve was a voice and a movement they could call their own. And so, I remember one distinct meeting. I do not know if David mentioned this or not, but I will share one distinct meeting that I remember when we were having with the resistance down in Palo Alto, we were doing one of our usual meetings and the men were dominating and someone passed a piece of paper and approve, you know, you are at a meeting pass a piece of paper around, put your information on it. And it got to one woman and she says, "Well, how come there is nothing but penises on this list? There is no women on here." And that one comment, made everyone go. Yeah, yeah. And the other. And the other controversy was Joan Baez, when she and her sister Mimi and Pauline put out that poster that said, women say yes to men to say no. And you I mean, they had to take it off because it was just people were outraged because what message was that women say yes to the men who say no. And so you know, think about that. put that in perspective. And if you want to, if you want to view if you want to, if you want to view those kinds of, if you were doing like a flowchart, where this dramatic shift of women thinking Enough is enough. And then of course, with the women them dealing having to deal with us, we are lesbian now, when this whole thing called the lavender menace. We do not want lesbians associated with, they were not that they were not there. Which meant that a lot of lesbians said, you know, what if we cannot be here to be who we are, we are gone. We are out of here. And then you got the lesbian movement. So, I am just intrigued at these moments where sometimes it is not out of because people realize it is the right thing. You just get tired of being ignored or you are not your issues are not relevant, and you go on, start something new, and then look what we have now. 28:25 SM: Well, we know that um. I know Dr. King, if he were alive, would be very sensitive to this issue, because he would have to take the criticism that the Civil Rights Movement, like you said, was basically a male dominated movement in the antiwar movement the same way. I would like to ask you questions, though, on the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement. Cesar Chavez was kind of a con on the leaders in the Native American movement and the environmental movement were men also kind of in the lead of these movements and women worse in secondary roles at the beginning. 29:00 MC: You know, it is interesting. I mean, let us take one, let us take, let us take them each by their own thing, because each one could be different. What was interesting to me is that you know, when you thought about Cesar Chavez, first of all, the fact that you had led farmworkers organizing was extraordinary. And the fact that it was not white and middle class, it was like, Whoa, what is going on here in California. But what people do not remember is that Cesar Chavez always, always, always had if the laws were with him, or always demanded that the media make sure that they included her but the media kept on only talking about who, Cesar Chavez and it was not until Cesar got ill and or when he could not be somewhere that people realize, wait a minute, Dolores Huerta was there from day one with Cesar Chavez, but a lot of people do not remember that history. And so, even so even when you have a man who understands and especially in the Latino community, where even though you have got this macho thing, let us admit it is like a matriarch just like the black community, what do you think? Family it is women and maybe part of the dynamic this is, this is a little psychological but maybe part of the reason why when you have, and it is more of an issue with black men than with women about being gay. Women have always been the matriarch of the family. And maybe anything that threatens the idea that males are so what word Am I looking for Steve are so chastised or so put down that whenever there is an opportunity for them to be the figurehead to be the face and voice, they will take it. But still knowing that without the women, I mean, if you did not have women, in these black churches, man, you would not have no black church, but the minister gets all the accolades. Mm hmm. And so-and so, I think when you think about, you know, the gay thing when I first talked about being gay in my black community, you know what they said to me? They said, "Mandy, we have enough problems, we do not need to be bringing that gay thing in here. That is all we need to have. We can barely hang on to our men now and you want we are going to lose more men because we are gay." I mean, think about that. And that really goes to a heart a lot of the reason why they are upset because it is what the preacher says, but they are thinking we do not want to lose no more men. Anyway, um, so, but-but I think the environmental women, I think the environmental movement had a lot more women, what was the Dr. Helen Keller got? Is that her name? 31:17 SM: Yes. 31:18 MC: Yeah, really-really was out there. And I would say that might have been the place where it really broke the tenure of-of being so male dominated. And now that that would almost tend to think as we went into the (19)70s and (19)80s there tends to be quite frankly, more women. Sometimes they have been men but again, it was just hard to break that male dominated thing even if they were doing good social justice. 31:43 SM: I know in the Native American movie you think of Russell Means and Sam sub there was a woman made kill about most women are placed in a secondary role there either so- 31:53 MC: And once again they were you know, and yet you still had so many strong women, Native American Indigenous women and you know and maybe that and maybe that is where you know you ended up people like with woman man killer and others who ended up starting to write and or be known and, and but this culture is just- it is just men and also the media does not help when they say who you are speaking to your people who your spokespeople see when there was a (19)63 march on Washington. We always talked about [inaudible] never got to speak as an out gay man but you never you never you know who else did not speak that day. Not one woman spoke, they say, not one woman spoke at the 1963 march on Washington, because they even said we cannot have any women speaking because we will not be taken seriously. So, think about that. Here we are with black folk trying to get the right to vote and be full citizens. But even at the march that was really a magic moment. Women were allowed to sing but they did not speak. 32:53 SM: I know at least Dorothy Height was able to stand up there with him, so. [laughter] 32:58 MC: You know what as he went on no, you do not. And then the rules were no women speaking. But think about that now. And I am not saying it is I am not saying I am not trying to put a value judgment on it. But I think it was sense of even it did not matter what movement if you were black, white, Latino, Native American, in a movement for justice, even within those movements, there was still the issue of where the issue of gender and let alone sexual orientation what role they had to play, but look how far we have come. 33:27 SM: When you think of Harvey Milk, I actually lived out in the San Francisco Bay Area at the time that he was assassinated along with Mayor Moscone. When-when Harvey Milk who is the hero of the gay and lesbian movement, even though Stonewall happened many years earlier, what-what-what how would you rate him and whether he was he was a male leader? So, what how would you rate him in terms of, uh, his treatment of women? 33:56 MC: But you never said something about First of all, people, I have not seen the movie milk pretty limited. I do not know if I could go, have you seen that? 34:03 SM: Yes, I have it. 34:05 MC: Okay. Uh huh. Okay, um, one day I might, you know, I might I might get around to it. I remember, after the Vietnam War, it took me years and years and years before I could go to the wall. I mean, you talk about people having issues going to the wall of being vets, I think a lot of us who are who wanted to fight that war. I could never go near that wall. It was just too hard. And I thought a lot of us who fought that to fought the war in Vietnam, let alone those who fought in it. The Wall was a hard place and it took I think it was like two years ago, I finally went to the wall for the first time ever. Oh, wow. It was it was devastating to think how many lives we lose and for what? Anyway, Harvey Milk, putting up with Harvey when this is what is so interesting, though. See, when Harvey, when Harvey and you were there, when Harvey Milk started to run, you know, back in the community was what are you wasting your time we are having a great time in San Francisco. It was not met with any kind of wonderful thing the way you look at people now who run for public offices, it is like what is the point? But Harvey as a man, and because he had a lot of the gay male community behind them, but there were a number of women who were can that were key in his election campaign did not get to hear that. Now this, the tragedy is and I was, you know, we are all hanging out in the bars, but I was hanging at Moz. And, and you know, and someone said Harvey wants to run and why not? It is gay vote and blah-blah. It was not until the man got murdered on that fateful day. And we all looked at each other. I mean, remember, Steve, but that happened that day, everyone was told to meet down at the corner of Castaway market bring a candle we are going to march in silence down to City Hall. And Steve, this is a town where lesbians never mixed with gay men, gay men never mixed with lesbians because we had our own worlds. That was what was great. And we got to the corner of market and [inaudible] and Steve, we looked at each other and said, what have we been doing? And it took Harvey's death, and George Moscone’s murder to say we have got to come together as a community, and I do not think that it is just an- a weird thing to say, I do not think that would have happened and occurred and look where we are now-now with the politics of San Francisco, because people did not quite understand what we had in the gift. We are too busy in our own worlds, you know, I will never forget that moment as long as I live. And I think back at that time, and that to me was the candidate in terms of the power and the politics of LGBT San Francisco to this day. 36:30 SM: My sister lived within three blocks of Mayor Moscone’s home. And I can remember I have a dumbed down Berlin game and I can remember driving up around his home and seeing all the cars there after the day after he was killed. And then of course, the event the daytime event in front of City Hall, remember when and I was there along with just about, I had a lot of people that I worked with, they were in they were not getting it what they could, but they liked Harvey Milk and they were all there. Talk about bringing people together, that that event brought gay and straight together because they admired him and I will never forget Joan Baez singing Amazing Grace. 37:13 MC: Oh, man, do you remember? 37:14 SM: Were you there? 37:16 MC: Yeah, I was there at that? Yeah. Talk about, talk about memorable days memorable days, not only in the context of San Francisco, I am getting chills thinking about it. And, you know, it is just it is almost like it is not me, Steve, but once to take this to lose someone to really sometimes grasp just how precious what we have in the, in our dedication to what we do. 37:38 SM: It is almost amazing because it is I have worked in universities for so about 30 years and, you know, all the different groups that we have talked about here, whether they be African American, Asian, American, Latino, you know, college Republicans, college Democrats, student, government, gay and lesbian, all the groups. They all come together. When there is a tragedy, like 911 and or somebody is murdered or the Rodney King incident, or whenever there is a major tragedy, they are all together and but then they seem to dissipate are not together anymore. Except for cultural extravaganzas, or, you know, and diversity, they have these special events that happen the university, it brings everybody out and about a tragedy, but it does not seem to be an everyday happening. And that is always disturb me. I do not know how you feel. 38:30 MC: And I was wondering to set that that is part of I was wondering if that is part of human nature, is that part of American culture, I agree with you. We would like to come together around a moment of tragic tragedy. And then time goes by now I will say this, I think they are, I think that would happen sometimes, though, that lessons are learned and I think there is some strong bonding that happens too, so some so you so you stay in touch with or you might be more clued in about why we need to establish like a relationship together. And I am not sure why someone was celebrating something and or when we have to mourn. And I am not sure what that is about Steve. I mean, but on the other hand remember I told you after Harvey's death, I mean, the gay and lesbian community, we did not, there was really no reason why we had to get together. But when Harvey ran, and then we realized about the politics of the city, and it was in our best interest to try to figure out ways, um, and then you know, when he after he got killed, we had another gay person run, got the seat, and then you had your first lesbian. You know, so, yes and no, depending on what you mean by-by staying together versus drifting apart. I mean, more about that, maybe that would help me understand. 39:46 SM: Well, at the university, for example, we had a, um, student who was an African American gay male, and I did not know this till after he left, but he was a very big leader within the Black Student Union. And, uh, he was always in the BSU office, BSU office, it is not on purpose, they have always had their doors shut. But right across the hallway is the Gay and Lesbian Student Union. And they had their-their office. And his only comment was that he told another person who told me is that he never felt comfortable walking across the hall because he feared what his peers would say in the BSU. So that was, you know, that that is the separation, I am talking about that, uh, you are, you are expected to be in one community and it is okay to be friends. But if, if you go too far, I just a perception that I have seen what one of the qualities of the boomer’s generation is they thought they were the most unique generation in American history. And a lot of boomers when they were young felt that way because they thought they were going to change the world. They were going to end injustice. They were going to bring equality. They are going to end the war, they are going to create a more perfect world. And that is why they had that unique feeling in some to even who we were approaching that (19)62 era-era still think that. But what are your thoughts on a generation? You know, I do not think I am not sure 74 to 78 million thought this, but a lot of them knew that they are unique. Just your thoughts on they are thinking that they are unique. 41:25 MC: Yeah, I guess I guess he said a racist field that I guess I would be curious to know, like, you know, go from the (19)60s, you know, what they racing and all that. Now, this is my take on it. I think I mean, I say I still think the (19)60s were magical because I think, uh, I mean who would be the next, and how do we count the generation? So, if you had the (19)60s, would it be the (19)70s and (19)80s. And then what was the Generation X and Y? I have no clue what that means. 41:52 SM: Generation X and now the millennials. Yeah. 41:56 MC: Is that what they are calling them? Look at the music we are listening to. I mean, when I think about the song I remember hearing that were songs that really meant something Dylan and Baez and other folk, you know, it was it was a protest generation but it was also a generation of hope. Now I cannot even make the lyrics out half the time of what is going on. Um. And so, music is an indication of what your what your generation is about. I do not know my day and I was part of that (19)60 thing because after that, I just lost track and then we got the bubblegum pop, (19)70s stuff and, you know, whatever. 42:29 SM: Disco. Disco. 42:35 MC: Wait a minute. I am glad you said that. Because I was just thinking about something. I was I would play I think we should claim to disco gay community. And here is why. 42:44 SM: Hold on. I am going to turn my tape here. Hold on one second. 42:48 MC: Okay, great. 42:55 SM: All right. Alright, go continue. 42:57 MC: But I am glad you mentioned disco because I remember this is going back to when I was up in Schenectady high school. I remember. And I will just say all this stuff, and then you figure it out, Steve, I remember thinking when the Civil Rights Movement was in its height of time, you know, (19)64, (19)65 and all that was going on down there. I remember Motown and if you remember the (19)60s and Motown songs ended up being this amazing cultural thing. And I guess you would have to count Elvis-Elvis in there somewhere in the (19)50s. With seemed like, even if you were white. You listen to songs of the Motown and I think we have to credit Motown for maybe bringing a lot of folks maybe never would have been put in the same place because of the music that was going on in the (19)60s and that would be the Motown sound, the folk songs. And then in (19)64, (19)65 came the Beatles. Now remember how jarring that was for me because up in upstate New York, when I was going to Mount Pleasant High School, we would always have daily dances and until the Beatles came along the only music that we were hearing, dancing was Motown, and then the Beatles and someone said, well, who are these people? They were white. They were from Britain. They had a sound, they took the whole thing over. But after the (19)60s, the (19)70s then we had disco. And I was in San Francisco and thank God for Sylvester. [laughter] You know who Sylvester is right. Yes. And Sylvester was the biggest Queen out there and he did not have anything but pride about who he was. But disco ended up being the scene and who else was on that? The Village People with YMCA? Yep. And how many baseball games do you go today? Steve? What song do they play all the time at every baseball stadium in this country, YMCA, so do not tell me that you know that whole disco sound and you know that was another generation too. But even disco had its unique role in my opinion music of- 45:02 SM: You, you make a perfect way? Because all my friends were listening to Diana Ross and the Supremes. I mean, who would know? Yeah. And the temptations and the list and of course, Marvin Gaye and what is going on in the early (19)70s. 45:10 MC: I mean it is powerful songs, right? 45:19 Yeah. And they are just, they are just so many and then of course, um, Donna Summer you are talking about Donna Summer and Gloria Gaynor and the Bee Gees and all the disco music is unbelievable. You make some good-good points. How important, how important do you feel that the college students of the boomer generation were in ending the war in Vietnam? I have gotten mixed responses on their-their impact on ending the war, just your thoughts on the protests on college campuses, and their overall impact. 45:55 MC: Pivotal. We could not do it without him. I mean, we had a lot of people out in the streets, but it was because we had these courts that was the other thing see we ended up doing this this tactic of coordinated days of action, I remember, not the draft week, um, you know you name them were and the infrastructure because college campuses was the natural built in infrastructure that us to organize these strikes and sit-ins and pros and what not and-and I do not know how you do movement in this country without them you had students very much involved heading down in droves down south when the Civil Rights Movement was going on. When you had the feminist movement and you had people demanding women's studies programs on college campuses, you had women campuses all across this country and even with the farm worker boycott, which is how did you think they got all these contracts when these colleges to say do not buy the lettuce so colleges, to me, is a built in infrastructure that really worked and the other, the other the other. The other network would have to be the churches came to the fore as well. Churches in the draft civil rights, women, environmental now you see with the gay lesbian thing. So, college campuses and their faith-based community. This seems to be natural. So, for me, I think, for this kind of justice organizing. 47:14 SM: How do you feel about this? This quote, this is another criticism on the generation. And we often hear it. "Only 15 percent of the boomer generation was ever really involved in any kind of activism. And so, we are talking 85 percent, who did nothing." I believe they were all subconsciously affected whether they did something or not, but that is still a lot of people. So, your thoughts on when people use that as a criticism and a lessening of the impact of the boomer generation for good in America. 47:51 MC: I do not know if I buy that. I mean, I do not, you know, I do not know where they got that figure 15 percent. I am not sure what they are getting at. Here is the other way to look at it, but let us go the other side. And that is all it took us to make this big, big difference where it makes it easier to go out and think about who you have to organize if we can do it with just only 15 percent of the population. But I think maybe this might be, this might be an interesting thing I have always wondered. And it was not until after the Pentagon Papers came out, and Dan Ellsberg and we had him talk about, you know, why he did what it did and what he thought about it. And it makes you wonder if it is about, lose my train of thought. If it is about changing hearts and minds. I mean, I remember when I was doing my first organizing, someone said to me, man, do you know how change happens in this country? And I said, no, tell me how it happens. Blah, blah. He said, it is about the changing of hearts and minds, but it is also about at times, partnering that with changing the public policy. And that there are times one gets ahead of the other and here is a classic example, interracial marriage in this country was against the law until we had the chicken in 1967. I graduated high school in (19)60. But in 1967, the famous Loving v. Virginia case out there did finally once and for all put to rest that you could be an interracial couple and get married legally in any state in this country. But that did not mean that the next day after that decision and to 1967 the rule said, Oh, yeah, we did it now. Yeah, it is all right. You can be married and if you are an interracial couple, just the opposite Steve. People hated the idea, but that was when the law got ahead of public opinion. So, I wonder in this country when you have a lot of young but they would call who is all these popular these people out here? You know, rebel rousing there is so few of them. Why are they causing all this? Why are they causing all these problems? But those handful of people, that really, were so dedicated to what they believed in and willing to take the risk and down south, you know, when they said black folk is not going to never make a difference down here. But it did make a difference, Steve. And so, versus the-the final product of what you end up changing, society and attitudes, then I would not I would not go by percentage, I will go by the fact that it did it got done. And sometimes it only happens with a handful of people. I do not know if I am articulating that well or not. But that is hearts and minds, policy, the power of the vote, the power of being in the street, the power of what you believe in. 50:34 SM: What is interesting is that today’s universities are run mostly by boomers, in some and now generation Xers those born after 1982, and so those are the people that are now running today's universities, and a lot of them are boomers that are some of them heading toward retirement, but they are in leadership roles. I am wondering, uh, and this is just the thought based on my experience. But I would like your thoughts, that there is a fear of activism on university campuses, not volunteerism, they want people to volunteer and service learning is crucial and, and they will be everybody will be the first to say, well, that is activism. But activism in terms of 24/7 is-is what I am talking about people whose lives are activists as opposed to giving a certain number of hours a week toward a cause. And, and my thought is that, and I like your thoughts on it is that universities are afraid of activism because it brings to mind what happened in the (19)60s, which is about disruption, stopping of classes. And in this day and age, we know that parents send their kids to college and if anything happens, they will send them take them right out and send them to another school. So, your thoughts on whether universities that actually learn anything about the activism that took part in the (19)60s and-and then in the possible linkage between the leaders that run universities today and the fear of activism itself? 52:09 MC: Well, I would say because I speak on a lot of college campuses I would say, like we say that I do not see anywhere near the level of activism what I saw, you know, back in the day, if I can use that term. In fact, I have been to a couple of campuses, I cannot believe to see where I was told that because they learned so well, from what the demonstrations that have happened in the past, that they were when they were doing building designs and security designs, they would do it in a way that there would be less opportunity for sit ins or taking things over or whatever. Because some of them had learned so well from when people were doing their activism on college campuses. And I thought that was just too ironic. And some of those people were people in the (19)60s who said, oh, yeah, I used to fit in and if you want to make sure that this is sit-in proof, right, this is what you can do but I do not I do not see as much maybe because it has taken a different style and, and this is my take on it but back in the day I was thinking about the film Brother Outsider when there was that one part where he said you had no faxes, you know we had a phone we did not you know, we did not have email and yet we were able to get, you know, quarter of a million people to the mall. And you think about what that took. But nowadays activism is become what do they call it cyber activism or it is just viral you put something out and then everyone across the country gets it at the same time? And is that changing how we protest? Does that change you know, what kind of pressure you bring to bear so you do not have to be out in the street per se? I do not know. But I think it is just an it is certainly is not anywhere near what I saw in my heyday, um, but yet, I would still say campuses have a role to play. But I but I am not in that environment as much. 53:55 SM: There is a, I will get to that question in a second, but there has been writings out there by one or two people that basically said the increase in tuitions, the fact that students have to work to get through college, which was not really the case as much in the (19)60s and (19)70s, has put a burden on students, so they have no time for activism. And that that and that in itself is part of a plan. So, I do not know if I buy all that. But it is interesting that there is some truth because when you look at today's college students, they do not have the time. Yeah. What is one event and your eyes changed the generation forever, that most shaped the lives of them in their adult years is, is there one specific event that that you feel the boomer generation, you know, felt, changed their life more than any other? 54:48 MC: Can I say a couple or just one or - I would say, um, when I think of the boomers, I am counting, well, Kennedy was killed in (19)63. I still think that that I think the Kennedy, I think the Kennedy assassination forever will ever be a benchmark for our generation. The other ones I would say that I would include on if I was doing a list this would be on my list. Woodstock, that just came new. Three Mile Island, Three Mile Island remember but on the other hand, what was the other huge treaty action that was up in, uh, up in New England were all these people got arrested because they were doing anti-nuclear power. 55:35 SM: That was Barragan was at the Barragan, uh. 55:38 MC: No, nope it was uh [dial tone] The Barragan s certainly had a role to play when you think about anti draft and stuff and then being priest but no, this was that big of steam. It was somebody It was a huge [dial tone] on the tip of my tongue. It was up in new way it was up in New England. It was around the power plant and it was the first time I think post-Vietnam and not Central American organizing where we sort of talked about the next big issue was going to be stopping nuclear, uh, weapons and these power plants, I will have that I might have to email it to you if I think of it. But I remember that being because that was one of the biggest civil disobedience actions. Outside of some of the actions we did to sit in against the war in Vietnam, that would be the next kind of big thing. Mm hmm. And then for me, and for the gay community was the 1987. March on Washington in 1987, Steve, where we rolled out the AIDS quilt, and all that went with it, and all we did to organize around that, I think, put the gay and lesbian movement on the map. Mm hmm. Post milk. Those would be the big ones I could think of when I think of the boomer now that is kind of getting beyond the (19)60s. So maybe I am getting out of range there. 56:51 SM: But that is still part of Boomer lives. So, that is important because when we are talking about this, we are not only talking we are talking about when they are young but as they grow as they grow up as they grow. So, this is about the time the boomers were alive. And so obviously, if you believe in evolution and growth and development, these are all important. 57:08 MC: Okay, good. Good. I was not sure if there was like, find a kick back to specific years or not, nope. 57:14 SM: Is there, uh- When did the (19)60s begin? And when did it end? Was there a watershed moment in, in its beginning? And then in its end? 57:26 MC: Well I would, I would, think as for me, when I was thinking about the (19)60s generation and how I did it as being a passivist and being an activist, it literally made I think it and, I do not know, if I say it ended, but I would say that the cutoff time, because remember, all of us were trying to end that damn war. And when that war was declared over in 1973, that was a benchmark because it was like, oh, my God, finally after all these years, and when they declared that, you know, the Vietnam War is over in 1973. Now, this is for me, Steve. I do not know if I can speak for everyone else, but for a lot of It meant that the charge of our lives at that point, would be like someone working in the Civil Rights Movement and you finally end up getting whatever you are trying to get the (19)63 voting rights act or (19)65 whatever. But I remember thinking distinctly when the (19)70s came along, so, in a way, it is also by the calendar, you know, (19)68, (19)69 a lot of stuff going on a (19)69, (19)70, (19)73. And for me, like, I know when I turned what, when did I turn 30, 40? I would have to look at the calendar and think about that, but I do not know. I mean, can I ask you what when did you think it ended? 58:42 SM: Well, I thought the six to me yeah. And again, this is about you, not me, anyways. But yeah, but to me, I was on I was in my first job at Ohio University Assistant Director of Student Affairs, and my very first job and I got a call from friends to come back to the Ohio State campus because students were streaking. [shriek] And, and, and we were talking and they said, well, the age of protest is over. Now students are streaking and that was 1973. [laughter] In the Fall. So, I placed I know that in people's minds, the (19)60s never left for those that were involved, but in terms of what was happening on the university campuses, streaking was the was a main thing because geez, I, I could not believe what I saw and I observed, I had a friend and I was actually teaching at a, was an administrator at a Catholic school in Indianapolis and he was ran a residence hall, and one of his students streaked at this Catholic school. And he was expelled from the school totally he had to leave the university and in the middle of school, so in the spring of the following year, so that is the kind of one the one of the events that I remember I have, I have, I want to read this to you because I think this is important. This is a big issue about healing. Do you feel boomers are still the boomer generation is still having a problem from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, a division between black and white divisions between gay and straight divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds a truth? I preface this, I add something to this and that is that meeting we had when I took students to see senator Muskie and before he, a year and a half before he died, he had just gotten out of the hospital. And the students were really excited about this question we asked him we thought he was going to talk about 1968 nominee divisions at that convention which he was the vice-presidential candidate. And he responded right away that we have not been healed since the Civil War. That was his response. So, just your thoughts on whether this issue of healing, is that important within the boomer generation? Or am I just making something up? That is not important? 1:01:23 MC: No, see, I would go the opposite. I would I would just, I would just I would say, I do not know if that is true. Certainly, I would certainly say, and it is two reasons. I think there is three reasons why we saw we did end the war in Vietnam, and we saw in time that we did have an impact that in fact, we found out that did make a difference that our movement was there. So, to see that conclusion, and no, we worked on it and see that as a conclusion, I think that was something that really was like a validator. I think the fact that we, uh, I think Barack Obama I mean I mean I work the polls here in North Carolina, Steve. And I remember the day that we were voting whether or not Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama is the primary in the state of North Carolina, which was a pivotal moment in his election. And I remember going to the polls that day in North Carolina there is a town, I do not know if you are familiar with this, the area, that has a huge black population that was based on strays moving up here from the south. So, you know that there is a real sense of history and whatever. And I am out here and one of the things I had to do with the poll that day is anyone who could not come into the polls to vote you have to go out they call it curbside voting. Mm hmm. And I went out to one of the curbs that day and there was a 98-year-old black woman sitting in there in her chair and she was in tears. She said, "I thought I would never live to see the day that a black man would become the president of this country." And I believe that the (19)60s generation, like I said, you earlier, saw the fruition of that. And I think a lot we had a lot to play in that in addition to those who came before women who were willing to vote, the right to vote to since the Civil Rights Movement. And so, I think I had I was at peace after I saw this poor woman. I mean, her whole life was her whole family was brought up in the slave area. So, I think for those of the (19)60s generation of anything, we have seen a kind of, um, I would not use the word closure, Steve, but we have seen a, um, coming around the bend and we saw it in our lifetime. I do not know how else you how else you can say that, that you know the impact that we had as a generation. So, that is why I would not agree with that. Now, on the other hand, race relations in this country and I would add class, class struggles continue to be an issue because we continue to be a country of haves and have nots. And that is my concern, as we move on to the future have and have nots, those who have and those who do not and the fact is you have got people living out here in the streets, kids, families with no place to live, and no heat, no call and repay for this fucking war over in Afghanistan, I am disappointed in Obama. And if anything, a lot of us who fought the Vietnam War now have been going around and will oppose him on this one as well. So that is a long way to say no, I think I think we really, I do not think it is a question of feeling as bad that there is still division, if anything, I think we have seen some closure, but also, we have seen a commitment that we are going to keep doing this issue, organizing around equality and justice as long as we are alive. Because we believe in it then and we believe in it now. 1:04:39 SM: You know, one of the things, and, well I am a big Barack Obama fan, I am also against the war. So, he knew that he is going to get criticized for this so much. But one thing about the issue of him that some people have written and I have read that he was just a continuation of the (19)60s generation in terms of the way he thinks the new Left mentality and all that ideology. So, in a sense, some are upset because it kind of brings back the memories of that period. And even though he is a very young man, yeah. That so you believe that? No, I do not believe that at all, but that there are people that do not like him not so much because he is-he is black. It is because of what his politics and his politics reminds people of the new left. I-I, it is just an- I read this in papers. So, I do not know if this is something that shows this lack of healing that that we have always got to go back and find Achilles heel in everyone and everybody I do not I do not know what it is I do not know. I that is just my thoughts. But- 1:05:42 MC: You know what is intriguing to me, I mean, talk about a generational shift. Look how much trouble he got in with the traditional civil rights people. It was like this guy. It made me think, you know, when I hear someone like Jesse Jackson, shame on this man for saying what he said about Barack Obama. It is like You know, Jesse, I love you, you have played a pivotal role, critical role in the Civil Rights Movement. You cannot hang on to this forever generations are going to move without, with, with you or without you. And it is like, you know, is he black enough, you know, is he this enough? And it was it. I mean, there is a generational shift. Now, I think there might be a tension around the generational side of us who were in the (19)60s in the (19)60s, movement, Civil Rights Movement, antiwar movement, are we willing to let it go? Are we willing to say hey, you know, that is what it was now, but you know, times are what they are now, we cannot hang on to this forever? I mean, that Jesse Jackson, to me is the epitome of I had it. I still want it, but life's going on without me anyway. And then he gets a woman pregnant and he is a minister do not even get me started. 1:06:44 SM: Yeah. Very good point. One other major besides the issue of healing is the issue of trust. The boomer generation when they were young, saw major national leaders lie to them and-and of course, we all know about Nixon Watergate, the enemies list, a lot of things that happened there. We know about President Johnson in the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. We know about Eisenhower and his lying about the U-2 incident. Even then rich near [inaudible] writings about Kennedy, and how much did he know about the- was he involved in the overthrow the diem regime? And then, of course, Reagan with Iran Contra, towards the end of his presidency and all kinds of evil. People did not trust board they said there was an agreement made between him and Nixon. The list goes on and on. The boomers did not trust people in positions of authority, whether they be a rabbi, a priest, Minister, president of the university and Director of Student Activities, the United States Senator congressman. I mean, what where, where are we today is that equality of this generation and has this lack of trust been passed on to their kids and grandkids. And then- 1:07:58 MC: I think it has, you know, I will tell you what I have to tell you and it is interesting you read that list off because I still do not know who I can trust and who I believe I do not care who it is. I mean every time you turn around and then when you find out this country is willing to do almost anything you know if we made a skeptic I mean, you know, I sat here in Washington for with September 11 but I also sat here and watched is that these people that wish knew got on a plane and got out of here with me who can you trust? Who can you believe? I like it and to me, I would hope that Obama has nothing that we need to worry about but George W. Bush and all those people and-and why am I still listening to-to Cheney and these people I do not trust them as far as you could throw them and I think at least with the (19)60s generation, maybe we have a healthy very healthy dose discussing skepticism because it was, look what we have seen happen. And, you know, I-I will always remain, uh, very, very leery. But with my government tells me and I also believe that once Obama became president it is no longer Obama's a man. There is a machine that runs on up there. That is the machine it runs with you as a person or not. Right? And I, candidate Obama was one thing but now he is president and I am thinking must have walked in and said, Oh, I did not realize I had this to deal with whatever. But no, I will always be skeptical because we have been burned so many times, Steve, and you know, where we find out more stuff later on. Probably we will. 1:09:30 SM: Talk a little bit more about the music and how important the music was, as part of the boomer generation. You talked about Motown but certainly the folk music and the rock music and-and of course, it had social messages, which was very important to Yeah, just and I remember talking to my parents or the World War Two generation, the big band sound is something that they were very loved and very proud of and come to define them but your thoughts on how important how important the music was, and the artists that you feel were the most important in this right? 1:10:04 MC: I just I just think, you know, I was just sitting here thinking about why-why did Motown? Why did Motown have such a pivotal role to play? Well, one of the things that did is that that music was played, that music was played with a lot of white kids that you could not even be in the same room with what was white kids? At least they were dancing to the music and let me that movie. What was the movie? That the guy from Philadelphia did? Oh, my God. My mind is going John- 1:10:30 SM: Singleton. John Singleton. 1:10:34 MC: Oh, no. It was a movie about the old days before America. You only could have white kids on the show, what is it called? 1:10:44 SM: American Bandstand, Dick Clark. 1:10:47 MC: Yeah, no, but there was a show based on that, but it was better was I want to think of it in a minute. But, but I think the point was, is that people were dancing to black music and black music, Steve, was so good. Not only was it a good tune, but you have to remember until people like Marvin Gaye came along with a message most of it was just a good beat. But white kids were dancing to that beat. That is what I guess that I was trying to solve- 1:11:09 SM: Soul Train. Where you talking about the TV show Soul Train? 1:11:16 MC: No. Movie. It was a movie. No, no. I have to eat it down and I have to find it and I will tell you what it is. But anyway, bottom line, it was a story about it was a dance show, like the American Bandstand. But it was all based in Philadelphia. And what happened is that these white kids were asking well why cannot we have black kids come dance with us because all the music that black songs so at one point they were doing it was called the talent show, they had to go to some studio, and one of the white girls bought a black kid in and it costs a real ruckus, but it turned out that all the black kids had to go to do a black place to dance. All the white kids could go to a white place to dance, but at one point kids said "We are going to protest and we are going to come in and dance to what we as we want anyway." Well, that that that one act of defiance, so we are going to dance anyway turn out to be a major thing that made the city realize these the kids could dance together if they want to blah-blah-blah. You know we did not have great songs and it was all the songs you know about era Motown and all that. But what I was saying about the Motown sound was that even though there was a racial issue going on the music ended up being the unifier because it was a good beat. People love to dance to it black or white, it did not matter. And then once they realized that the songs were so great, and it was bringing money, and they were willing to put these black performers out in front of white audiences, and that changed it forever. You know, you got the Motown review and all that. That is what I meant. I am sorry, that was a long way to, right? That you and I think it is. 1:12:51 SM: Yeah, you mentioned Joan Baez, but some who were the folk singers that you felt kind of crossed over. And then of course, some of you mentioned the Beatles, but any other records. 1:13:01 MC: Yeah, well, I would certainly I would certainly I would certainly say that when you think about the Baez, Dylan even before Joni Mitchell, Peter, Paul and Mary, Peter, Paul, and Mary ended up being able to bring some songs into the mainstream that you might that might not have been played otherwise. I mean, even if you think about back to those songs, what folk songs were not being played that did not go mainstream, they are numbered monovision came out in, and St. Marie came out. But you had some people who are Judy Collins, and they are all singing these folk songs, but also in remember used to have coffee houses and where a lot of organizing happen were in the coffee houses before the music industry became a big deal. A lot of a lot of the organizing and the resistance and people doing stuff because there was a folk singer, local people that were not well known, but I would have to tell you, in my opinion, Joan Baez and Bob Dylan will have to go down is in my opinion, but it forever be the voice of the folk scene. The (19)60s I would say Motown music, will have to go down as the sound of the (19)60s. I would say Buffalo, Crosby, Stills, Nash, Joni Mitchell. And then interestingly, Richie Havens, because how many people of color did we have out there that were singing songs of protest and Richie Havens what a performer this man is. So, I am intrigued that you are going to interview him as, and then Jimi Hendrix, you know? Yeah. You know, I think about that, but you know, as people of color, the movement was so white, you know, no disrespect, but it was like, you know, where are our folk man? Where are our people. And other than Motown and Richie Havens, Aretha Franklin, I mean, you know, people of color, but protest, people of color, Richie Havens would be the closest I could think of, right? 1:14:50 SM: Yep. What were some if you can remember what were what were some of the things you were reading back in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Were there any books and authors that really had an influence on you? 1:15:01 MC: Well, a lot of our reading of course, because we are all past this was, you know, Gandhi, you know, leaning on John Fondren. I was trying to think of my reading was people who were talking about the fundamentals of nonviolence. Um, I was not big. I was not really a big reader. There was a couple of magazines that would come out. Before Rolling Stone became so commercial I remember Rolling Stone being out there. I was living in the Bay Area. So, what the Bay Area Guardian I mean, more movement kind of stuff. I was not a big reader, quite frankly, see, so I cannot remember any books that stood out. Oh, I remember when it was called Our Bodies Ourselves that came out about women's health. There was a thing, I still have it. The movement toward a new society by my, uh, Mitchell Goodman, one of the most amazing books ever put out of the (19)60s I have it sitting on my shelf it is falling apart because it is so old, but I remember that. 1:15:57 SM: What is the name of the book? 1:15:58 MC: It is called- it is called, um, The movement of a New America by Michel Goodman. 1:16:12 SM: Oh, I got to, check that out. Yeah. I have come to the part of the interview where I am going to ask you, just your responses to some of these names and some of the terms of the era. They do not have to be long, but just your feelings on them. And the first one is what do you think of the Vietnam Memorial and its impact not only on Veterans, but on America. 1:16:38 MC: Profound. Absolutely profound. That wall, like I said, I think a lot of us who fought the war, it took us forever to finally go down to that wall. And for me, it was it was just realizing how long we had fought against this war and then to go down there and see what was the 58,000 and for what and I knew a number of people on that wall and I was just thinking, What lessons did we learn from this? I mean, that wall is deep for all kinds of reasons. And you know, that is all and the woman who put it together I mean, it would it would it what a gift in- 1:17:16 SM: Maya Lin, yep. 1:17:17 MC: Blew me away. 1:17:20 SM: What does Kent State, what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? 1:17:26 MC: Well it, it meant two things for me one is that why did Kent State get more-more play than Jackson State, Jackson State being where black students got killed but on the other hand, it said to me that this country, what length will this country go to and it became very clear that they were willing to kill people. And I just did I could not believe it, that they would be willing to kill people for a policy that that, that people were protesting, but Kent State was I mean, how is that possible? Jackson State How is that possible? 1:17:59 SM: Yeah, I know Kent State that group that puts together the memorial every year. Always make sure that Jackson States involved and they bring people in. Yeah-yeah. So, they are-they are very sensitive and they have been doing that from the beginning. With the media, you are right about how the media often times does things. What does Watergate mean to you? 1:18:21 MC: Ugh Watergate that was just I think, I think for that generation, Steve, Watergate, Watergate to me is sort of like I do not know if I am going to say this, right. It was-it was an awakening for it was an awakening for the country to realize once again to what ways people will go. my innocence was taken from me when Kennedy got [audio cuts] 22nd 1963. I know exactly where I was. I thinking just cannot happen. And I think when Watergate happened in another kind of way that was like this cannot happen and yet it did and then you realize then you wonder why there is such a healthy level of skepticism. And they got caught. That is what it meant to me. They got caught. 1:19:14 SM: Yeah, Woodstock. 1:19:16 MC: Who knew, who knew. I did not go. I had heard about it. But on the other hand, the commercialization of Woodstock, I am done. You know, it is like, okay, it happened and it was and I do not know? 1:19:32 SM: How about, uh, 1968? 1:19:39 MC: When I hear (19)68, I think of two things in my personal life. I went to the Institute for the Study of nonviolence and met Ira Sandperl and Joan Baez. But of course, (19)68 will be Chicago Democratic National Convention, and what would they call the something 8? What they end up being called the folks who got indicted. 1:19:59 SM: Chicago, Chicago, eight and then Chicago, Chicago seven after Bobby went to was taken away from them. 1:20:06 MC: That is right Chicago 7 got yeah, right. Uh-uh. 1:20:10 SM: Yeah, well how about counterculture? 1:20:15 MC: I always thought that was a media term like where did that come from this idea of counterculture. I thought that was more of a media now this is my thing. I thought that was like a media thing. You know, like the counterculture? I am not even sure what they meant by that. 1:20:26 SM: Theodore Rosa, Rosa wrote that book of the called the making of a counterculture which said it, yeah. 1:20:32 MC: I mean, I do not know about this when you look. 1:20:39 SM: How about the-the hippies and the yippies? 1:20:43 MC: Well, I think because I was I remember the hippie thing because I was there. And but the good thing is that- 1:20:48 SM: Your voice just went down. 1:20:49 I am sorry. 1:20:51 SM: Your voice just went down. 1:20:53 MC: Oh, you know, I just picked up the handset. I was getting static. Okay, can you hear me? Yep, I can hear you. Yep. So, The hippies I mean, it is interesting remember I told you when I was in New York in the summer of (19)67 we were called we were not called hippies we were called you know love children we were called love child you know whatever to say I am go to San Francisco and they were called hippies out there but that But that was before that got commercialized. It was little h-i-p-p-i. But then it became, you know, commercial. Yeah. Yippie Was not that what was his name? Abbie- 1:21:24 SM: Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin created the yippies. 1:21:26 MC: So, I did not quite get that. What does that stand for youth and what? 1:21:28 SM: Youth International Party. 1:21:31 MC: Oh, okay. Yeah, I do not even I do not know what that was about. I did not like these two guys. Anyway. 1:21:37 SM: How about SDS Students for Democratic Society and the weathermen? 1:21:42 MC: Well, the SDS that I mean, to me in the early beginnings, when SDS was truly the students for democratic society, I liked it. I do not I do not know what happened where it went off tracks after that. And what was the other thing? 1:21:53 SM: Uh, the Weathermen. 1:21:54 MC: As a pacifist this what the hell were they doing with guns and bombs and look, look what happened and then they did not they probably caught them did not they did not do or what happened? 1:22:07 SM: Yep, Bernadine Dorn and Harris, who was a friend of, um, President Obama, he has remembered- he has been a critical mass, right? That is right. 1:22:12 MC: And they are, you know, and they are again, I have to tell you something, I never shared this with anyone I want to tell you. 1:22:22 SM: Let me change. Let me change. [audio cuts] Okay, go ahead. I am ready. 1:22:32 MC: Speaking of that, I was just saying that again, this idea of violence and destruction to do that for a better read, I remember there was a big debate, Steve around draft board, destruction. Remember, people were going in and pouring blood on draft files. And there was that one case of thing someone either bombed or put on fire some draft board with the files and it was huge debate because we said, you know, what is the point of going in and doing-doing property damage if you are trying to get people not go you know that interesting line of how do you protest? And are you-are you going to be accountable and I remember Steve during stop the draft week and Oakland where we had the Oakland induction center. The first two days we were going to be organized by the War Resisters League which meant it was a non-violent protest we had everything organized and the second part of the week was going to be organized by those who did not have the same philosophy and their attitude was do it but do not get caught and-and do it and do not get caught meant the girls burning tires and we thought you know well here is your let us go use this as an example do it but do not get caught so you have no accountability you are not you do not know why you did it. You are not going to stand up and-and-and-and take the kind of risk and or, the punish- you know, I do not want to use the word punishment but you know, to say that, in jail for 10 days versus like, do it, do not get caught that that was a really dividing line for I think a lot of us in the movement. That is whether underground curiosity like, you know, what is the point. 1:24:11 SM: That, you actually you just created a magic moment. We have had like five magic moments. That is a magic moment. And you just said there, because Dr. King was the one that said, if you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs, then you are, you know, then you shouldn't be out there. And, and it was the Barragan brothers who put blood on nuclear and destroyed draft card, draft papers and everything, but they went there and did it and they were caught and they went to jail for years, because they were willing to pay the price for their actions. 1:24:44 MC: Backed by, big difference, is not it? 1:24:46 SM: Oh, really big difference. How about the Vietnam Veterans against the war? 1:24:51 MC: Unbelievable. I you know, when you think about the fact that vets and we were trying to stop the war that we did not have to have vets, but to have come out of that war, and be called Vietnam vets against war. Unbelievable. And I think that was that would have that would have to go into a category that we never thought that could happen or that was not even on our radar. Think about you have vets who are over there understanding about how that you know what was wrong with the war and look at the role they played, you know, with their role in terms of opposing the first Iraq war, when they said no, it has been there do not did it. Do not do it. But yeah, unique. And thank you. 1:25:30 SM: What did the three most? Well, I think one of the actually these three pictures are, are in the top 100 pictures of the twentieth century, but they were major pictures that oftentimes are looked at-at defining the (19)60s generation. One of them is Tommy Smith and John Carlos raising their fists at the 1968 Olympics in Mexico City. The second one is Kim Phuc. Well, the young girl being burned in Vietnam and that was a 1971 picture. Yeah. And then the third picture was Mary Ann Vecchio the 14-year-old girl over the body of Jeff Miller at Kent State on May 4, 1970. What, when you think of those three pictures? What do you think of? 1:26:15 MC: Well first of all, I am stunned that you did not have [inaudible] lie on that list. 1:26:18 SM: Well, I you know, me I am, yeah. Get the picture of the certainly the people the dead bodies that me lie to so you can add that. 1:26:31 MC: Yeah. Well, first of all, each one of those to me, ended up being and we did not know at the time those photographs ended up being turning points in our movement. I was each one of those who just said, they are like, they are just like seared in my memory. And-and then I realized just how powerful a picture is worth 100 words, 1000- whatever word you want to use. They just tear it. You did not. You did not even have to say anything. You just look at these pictures and you realize they are their icon, iconic. We are on it. Yeah, yep. 1:27:01 SM: I am going to mention some names here in a minute. But I want to mention three quotes too. And I would like your thoughts in terms of which one made define the boomer generation more than the other, or if all three define the generation. One of them is the one that Malcolm used all the time by any means necessary, through all those posters but he, he went to his grave with that statement, even though he had gone to Mecca, coming back and saying that all white people were devils by any means necessary. The second one is Bobby Kennedy, who I think he took Henry David Thoreau's quote, but it was you do some men see things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not. And a lot of people remember that from Bobby. And the third one is just from the painter, Peter Max, who is well known artists of that era. And he had a very famous painting that a lot of college students put on their wall and on that painting said you do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, or we will come together. Now those are three different statements from three different kind of angles. Is anyone define the boomer generation more than the other? Or are the is it a combination of all three? 1:28:15 MC: Well, I have to tell you, I really, I really take exception to Malcolm X is one of by any means necessary, correct? That puts me the back in that, you know, do not get caught. That is me. That is my personal thing. Bobby Seale, I had issues with as a person so I probably go with the latter, but I do not remember that that well that latter one. The third one- 1:28:34 SM: Yeah that was Max's posters. Yeah. I am going to mention some names now and just your response to them as people. Okay, and then from the era. Amie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. 1:28:52 MC: We will know them, certainly, I do not know. I mean, you know, I mean, if I had to go on a scale of yes, I like them a lot or not. I mean, I do not know. I mean, I did not know him personally, and I, you know, I am sure they had a role to play. I do not know, I am not I am not impressed. I do not know what else to say. 1:29:15 SM: Let us get into the Black Panthers. And because there is five or six of them here, and of course, there is Elijah. There is Eldridge Cleaver. There is Kathleen cleaver. There is Huey Newton. There is Bobby Seale. There is Angela Davis. The- one of course that was assassinated in in Chicago and just that, and of course, Stokely Carmichael, and H. Rap Brown, they are all black panthers. 1:29:39 MC: Well, the only two I will tell you, I will tell you what, how many of them are still alive? 1:29:45 SM: Well, I know that H. Rap Brown's alive. He is in jail. Yeah. And Bobby Seale is alive. Mm hmm. And so is Kathleen, she is a lawyer in Atlanta, a very successful lawyer. So, uh. 1:29:58 MC: She was Just here and Durham. I would say of all of them may course I am still concerned about the male thing. If I had to put a sympathy level on things, I mean, when I say sympathy if I had to put a level on, you know, okay. I do not know I have I have a lot of respect for Kathleen Cleaver and Angela Davis. This is women within the Panthers. 1:30:27 SM: Yeah, okay. How about Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew? 1:30:33 MC: You know what they have they actually ended up playing [audio cut] into these two people, they probably without realizing it has brought us on more. If I could say it that way, Steve. They really ended up being motivators. And then we saw of course in the end, why? Yeah. 1:30:55 SM: But they motivated because they were bad. 1:30:59 MC: Oh, yeah. When people would win We were on a roll about what to do about what was happening with this war and Richard Nixon and remember when he got elected and-and, and what was like, you know, unprecedented numbers it did not then we realized it did not matter how many people voted for you, you were still a crook and you were still bad and you were wrong and-and we saw what happened. He had to leave office. I mean, talk about a defining moment. And what-what happened to Agnew, did not he go off to jail, what happened to him? 1:31:24 SM: He got indicted. He never went to jail. But yeah, if I saw him was at Nixon's funeral, he was on TV, and he was walking around like no one wanted to talk to him. [laughs] He never I think he paid-paid a penalty, but I do not think he ever went to jail. But you do Gene McCarthy and George McGovern. 1:31:43 MC: Well, I think you know, I have to tell you, just real quick, I think for a lot of people, there was a lot of people who said do not bother to vote, it does not make a difference. And I think between Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern, a lot of us who were told do not vote, it does not make a difference, people begin to turn toward electoral politics as another tool for possibly making change because up until then it was all in the street. Mm hmm. It was a protest, but people begin to realize maybe the importance of the vote and-and Eugene McCarthy and McGovern probably did more to seal that as another avenue of protest, the power of the vote. 1:32:20 SM: Timothy Leary and Daniel Ellsberg. 1:32:25 MC: I knew them both and I got to work for Timothy Leary, of course, LSD. You know, I have to tell you, though, I took one trip and I did was only did not last long because I could not handle it. But I always wondered what the what the impact of LSD was on our society. I do not know if it was good. I am not so sure that it was good. Was the he was, you know, part of that scene? And Denver? What can I say the Pentagon Papers, I still know Dan to this day? And-and if anything, I think it showed me Steve that you can reach someone. You know what Daniel Ellsberg did for the movement after we realized the role that he played meant that you could not write anyone off that you never knew who you could impact and if you if you just told people you do not count, you will never matter we do not like you. If you do not leave an opening for them you do not know the consequences. And look what happened with Daniel Ellsberg. 1:33:15 SM: You are right. You are right and a lot of people and I learned something later that he was a very proud marine. Yeah, when he was young. and that is what- 1:33:26 And that was what was so amazing about this man when you think about the life he led, but look, and look at the impact of what happened with him and the people he met and just hearing stories of people's lives and that was a lesson and I know for a lot of us passivist type. We have always been told you never shut the door on people you never know whose life will impact but a lot of the movement was angry in trust. And you never gave anyone space to say that I can change or I have a role to play and then only to find out and you know, who was Daniel Ellsberg before he did that he was just a guy working at Rand unite. Right? And look at the role this guy played unbelievable. 1:34:00 SM: How about John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy? 1:34:07 MC: You know, there was a theory KKK Kennedy, King, Kennedy, I remember hearing that I was sitting in on the mall in resurrection city. That was the last project King was working on with the poor people's campaign. Kennedy had killed in Spiro Agnew (19)63, King had been killed. And we were sitting in the mall and we heard about Bobby Kennedy and I am thinking someone wanted these people gone. On the other hand, the Kennedy, the Kennedy thing I mean, as a woman, I am done with these men messing around. Cannot they keep it in their pants? What is the deal? You know? So, you find that out that out about a guy but for all intents and purposes, he was the president as I knew a man and he got assassinated and-and all that but you know, I do not know Kennedy's are not like walking on water for me, but yet that was this I think our innocence was taken from us with-with the first one not 1:34:58 SM: Bobby but with john F. Kennedy. How about Lyndon Johnson and Hubert Humphrey? 1:35:04 MC: Well, I guess the more we find out about Lyndon Johnson, you know, you get to know on the other hand, I would say that in terms of the Civil Rights Movement, what a pivotal role this man played. And as a white guy from Texas that does sit there and do the stuff he did, without knowing all the background, but look at the role he played down in the Civil Rights Movement stuff. And I know he did not, he had a lot of flak for that, but it turned out to be historic. who was the other person? 1:35:31 SM: It was Hubert Humphrey. 1:35:34 MC: I do not know much about Hubert Humphrey. I do not remember anything that really stuck out in my mind about him. 1:35:40 SM: How about Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan. 1:35:45 MC: Well, I just remember Goldwater, you know, just thinking of Republicans and you know, and then he kind of scared me because I remember when he was when he was running, there was some race stuff going on, or some folks were right. Ronald Reagan was interesting, because like, I remember asking, how does the governor and how does the former movie star remember does the former movie store become the governor of California before he becomes president? And I remember Ronald Reagan for one key reason People's Park Ronald Reagan governor sent in sent in in the-the we call those state the tanks into Berkeley. Right? And I said once again well this is this this country has no shame. 1:36:25 SM: He is directly linked to the Free Speech Movement to at Berkeley and (19)63, (19)64 because he was the governor then so the battle when- 1:36:35 MC: He had the right is some of the most tumultuous moments in Berkeley. So, when government Reagan was governor but people spark will forever I remember that why are we having tanks and people with bayonets and-and the park around this damn piece of property? But let me share something with you Steve. Remember we said earlier about do it but do not get caught. Mm hmm. I remember I remember it was Mayday being called whoever these people were calling for people to come take that fence down. This is when you had National Guard in tanks with bayonets drawn wire around that piece of property there in Berkeley. And you had these organizers telling people to come in down here and take this fence down. And I remember the night before the war resisters league and Roy Kepler said we have to have an emergency meeting. We were going to stand in between the protesters in front of us, the barbed wire behind us and the National Guard behind us to make sure no violence happens on this day. And we that Steve and my knees were knocking I will never forget that day as long as I live. And the biggest compliment we got as pacifists, we heard people say, Oh, man, we could have done something that those damn pacifists had not gotten in our way. That was one of those moments and all the guys would tell people to go down and take their takedowns where would they you could not find them for nothing. They were not around. Wow. And I thought can you put people's lives in jeopardy you are calling for these people to go take that fence down. Maybe you could not find them if you could try and I thought this is so irresponsible. But we ended up being able to not have a violent action on that day because of us to intervene as pacifist between the National Guard behind us and the protesters in front of us at Berkeley in People's Park. 1:38:12 SM: I remember the book that called Berkeley at war written by [W. J] Rorabaugh it is a great book. And that is all in there. Yeah, Dr. Benjamin Spock and Daniel and Philip Barragan. 1:38:26 MC: Thank you Dr. Spock, who knew that a guy who worked as baby book and there you go again, the guy who wrote the book on having babies and what you do with babies and look at the role he played and the Barragan brothers to be Catholic priest to do what they did go to jail and I think for a lot of people they really created this whole wonderful faith based kind of understanding the role of people of faith in any movement we have they really they-they sealed it and symbolized it and but did not want to do that went to jail to that ended up marrying one of the Barragan’s, we do not know about her. 1:39:01 SM: Yeah no, we do. She runs Jonah house in Baltimore, Elizabeth McAllister, she is. 1:39:07 MC: Elizabeth McAllister, for a lot of women, once again, no disrespect to Dan and the two guys, but for a lot of women, it was her as a woman and as a nun doing that, you see what I mean? I think people are forgetting the role of how important women are when you do these things to have a role in that some of that stuff. 1:39:26 SM: One of the one of the important things because I have met, I was at the funeral for Philip. I went there because he was spoke on our campus with Elizabeth and so did Daniel and I have interviewed Daniel for my book here, and that is that they respected women and women and Catholic nuns were as important as Catholic priests in the movement and I have not seen any sexism or anything. On the part of those two men. Because when Philip was there, oftentimes Elizabeth was there. And sometimes when Philip went to jail. Then Elizabeth took care of their three kids. When Elizabeth went to jail. He took care of the kids so it is absolutely yeah. 1:40:04 MC: And by the way, I did not mean anything. I did not mean to be [inaudible] them. I think what happens is that, once again, the media what they tend to just remember I told you about Cesar Chavez and it is weird stuff is that when they are writing their pieces, rather than being rare than them getting it like you just talked about, they always end up defaulting toward only talking about the man. Good. That is all. I mean, I am sorry. I cannot be. Yeah. 1:40:29 SM: Well, there is truth to that. Robert McNamara and George Wallace. 1:40:34 MC: But the thing I love about McNamara toward the end of the day when he when he was not it recently, where he ended up thinking when he asked, he said, I made a mistake. And McNamara was one of the people that we kept on saying you were so wrong about the Vietnam War policy, he would not back off it. But then as we saw Time went by and he said, you know what, I think I might have been wrong on this. So, there you go again, but how many years that we have to wait to hear that knowledge and George Wallace. You No. for me and I think our generation who can forget George Wallace standing in the door of town and Alabama saying is not no nigger coming through these doors at this high school, right? And at the same time when he got shot and he was in a wheelchair and very woman, he said that too. They stood together and I was in tears on that picture and I thought about whether he was sincere or not. That just showed you that a thing called the civil rights movement in which people would be murdered. Just for the right be equal. Here is this white Southern man and a chair apologizing to the very woman is saying I am sorry. And then you have Jesse Helms here in the North Carolina never once apologized, even into the death. Fringe, and they are both gone now, but [inaudible] yep. 1:41:51 SM: The other things are just the presidents and boomers’ lines, which is Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford. Just your thoughts on those two presidents. 1:42:00 MC: Well, Jimmy Carter, a southern peanut farmer to become president, that was that was like, oh, and who was the other person? Gerald Ford? I was like, What the hell? I mean, how did he get in there? I mean, man who knows? But he was-was not he like an orphan? What was he? I mean, I could relate to him because listen, he like adopted or something. 1:42:21 SM: Not quite sure. I know that took obviously, he pardoned Nixon, which did not go over but Pete that one? No, it did not go about, you know, what was going on with that people think he did it, though. He did help and healing the nation by doing so. So, it is a controversial moment. 1:42:37 MC: Everything is controversial. And he kept on falling a lot. Did not he fall? Yes. And- 1:32:44 SM: He hit people with golf balls. A couple of other presidents George Bush Senior. He was the gentleman who said that the Vietnam syndrome is over. And of course, we are not talking about Reagan. But Reagan. Reagan said we are back. We are going to build the army up again. America is back. We are going to love Living in America where we did not supposedly in the (19)70s in the (19)60s, so both George Bush Senior and Reagan both played a part in this, what they think was the ending of the Vietnam syndrome. 1:43:13 MC: Right? Well, I remember being scared to death of Bush Senior because he was once head of the CIA. What do we think of the CIA? We said, this is the guy that president of this country, he scared me. 1:43:23 SM: And the last two are, of course, our Bill Clinton and President Bush Jr. And I say this because in my interviews, not the early interviews, I did not include them. But in the latter interviews that I have had this year, in the last couple years, I have said, most people say that when you look at Bill Clinton and George Bush, they-they epitomize the boomer generation, with the qualities about who they are. When people say that what do you think the qualities that these two men have that label them boomers? 1:43:54 MC: Well, that is interesting, because I would have to say on first glance, I remember I did say that, put it in would end up being like our first sixties Example of because he was the first guy that never served in the military. He was the first guy. You know, literally the president of this country because it was so that was almost a way you could judge about the (19)60s kind of going on. Is that because he was the first president, post (19)60s generation? So, that is-that is kind of what I meant. On the other hand, I do not I would not put him together with that. I mean, when I think about the (19)60s, I, you know, he was not what was he doing? He was not around. Hillary was not around, I guess what Hillary was doing some stuff. So, that is what I meant about my memory. But, you know, I remember working on his campaign and after, after, after, what did he come right after Reagan. Right. Bush came in. 1:44:43 SM: George Bush, he came after senior George, Bush Sr. 1:44:42 MC: Yeah, I remember working hard and thinking about the fact that we would get someone and the reason why right. The reason why I am quitting stood out because he was the first president willing to talk to the gay and lesbian community and having them having us be a part of his campaign. I thought that is amazing. And a lot of rested on Clinton and I loved him until many Monica Lewinsky and I thought he is just like every other guy out there. That was disappointing. But, you know, Clinton had a really pivotal role to play. He was there for eight years from the south. Again, by this time I am in North Carolina. So, yeah. 1:45:15 SM: And George Bush himself, you do not like him, but what were qualities that may link him as a boomer because he is a boomer. 1:45:24 MC: So, you know what is interesting, but you know, let us look at the difference between and George W. Bush, Jr. There is a qualitative difference right there. The top has not have nots. And that was interesting about Bill too, you know, coming from a family where it is basically his mother raised me down south, he does not have a whole lot of money, he is bright. And then you look at someone like George W. Bush and I worked in Florida, by the way, Steve in the 2000 election campaign. And this man was never elected. He was selected by one vote, and I will never forget that this man should never have been president. And Florida was it was a disaster. And, and I am just glad he has gone. I do not you know, and I would never put it I would not ever say he is a person of the (19)60s. I mean, he might have been born in that time, but not his lifestyle, not the way this guy was raised. Well, I want to- 1:46:16 SM: My final questions is just about you, because I am what makes you continue to do what you do knowing that throughout your life, some of the things that you stood up for, you have been some people look at you as a threat, or they do not. They do not like you for some reason, and how have you been able to deal with it? You have a lot of supporters and some people are not supporters. But I have a question here. I can read my writing here. You created the National Black Justice Coalition, which is for black LGBT individuals to fight racism and homophobia was-was there resistance in the black community? To you like there was toward Dr. King when he had many members of the African American community mad at him because he was against the Vietnam War. He saw the bigger picture whereas some of the other civil rights leaders said you got to concentrate on racism you cannot concentrate. So, you just-just your thoughts on that question and in any way, you respond? 1:47:22 MC: Well, first of all, I am really glad that you highlighted that about King because I think a lot of people missed under-, missed that point that this was such a romanticizing about, about Martin Luther King, that when he took that, what I would proceed, he just positions- he has ever took in his career was to say we have to look beyond civil rights and what is going on with that war in Vietnam. He took hell. And like you said, People said do not do it, do not go there and he was willing to do it. And I am not a conspiracy, I am not a conspiracy theorist, Steve, but the death of this man down in Memphis, Tennessee, helping the garbage workers down there. You have to wonder who had it out for who, that is what I meant about. I do not know who to trust anymore. But I know that he took a lot of flak, because they said, you know, do not go there. On the other hand, I think that was interesting because King was the bridge in a way, Steve, now that I think about it. Remember I told you said a lot of us were too young for the Civil Rights Movement, but old enough for Vietnam? Yes. So, who was who was the bridge builder on that? It was Dr. Martin Luther King when he gave this famous speech at the church up in Harlem. Mm hmm. I mean, the-the church up in New York Riverside Church when he gave this famous Vietnam, yep. And I think there was a generation of folks that said, you know, I was not down south, here is a man talking about Vietnam and then we would not take it off and went running with it. So, I just say that because I was just thinking historical links that be it but you know, it is what is interesting for me is like, I think part of it is because I was orphaned I have nothing I have to lose about being out as a black lesbian. And for those of us who have nothing to lose, I do not care what people think about me I have things I have got to say and try to get the work done. I am now 62 I have never had my life threatened but I have had people tell me I am terrible and I am awful. 1:49:16 SM: Mm hmm. 1:49:17 MC: But when I think about when I started talking about that a long time ago and where we are now, and thinking how far we have gotten when you have a black man who has the five national co-chairs for his campaign, who are out lesbians working on his campaign to get him elected called Barack Obama and I am one of them. Look how far we have come did we ever think that would ever happen so for me my work is easier everyday this slips by not-not let it does not get worse it gets- people are getting it now. 1:49:50 SM: Well I will tell you one thing one thing after reading the information on your background longevity is part of your legacy. It is ongoing commitment, and I would like you to make a few comments on the, uh, song, the organization that you work for, how it was started, and how it is going, and what and what it is doing for others and a little bit about that Stonewall award, did you receive that? Define, you know, because it was given to us. So, a song first. 1:50:18 MC: Well, you know, as to you know, there was a great quote, and I and I am not the only one who has made it, Steve, but I know this has always been Remember I said it earlier about the equality and justice being the philosophical underpinning about why a lot of us hang in so long. That has always been that has always been what has driven me is equality and justice for all. But the other quote that I love Steve, that keeps me going is "Do not mourn, organize. And if there is a need, fill it". 1:50:44 SM: Wow. Mm hmm. 1:50:49 MC: We saw when I you know, living here in the south, I have never seen so much anti science with movement people. Then, then when I moved to the south, I mean, we are talking about my people, gay and lesbians. We are organizing our first conference here, this is how song got started. We were organizing a gay and lesbian conference to the gay and lesbian taskforce. They do an annual conference called creating change every year. And this year because of another side law that they decided for the first time ever in 1993, to have that conference here in Durham, North Carolina. And a lot of us got together and said, here, I was with the warrior sisters League, and I said, yeah, we will help organize it. And so here is the phone call, we started getting, well, is there an airport down there? Are the roads paved? What kind of food we going to eat? And I am saying, wait a minute. These are people coming to our conference down in Durham, North Carolina. 1:51:43 SM: Mm hmm. 1:51:48 MC: And the final one was, where are the roads paved? And I said, Well, maybe we better do a workshop about what it means to be of color. Queer, in the South and that workshop was so well attended back in 1990. That became the foundation of what is now called southerners on new ground, right? Because we were trying to connect the issues of race and class and culture and gender and sexual identity. And understanding that all those isms are so connected and that when we do our work, we will be equally as concerned about gay and lesbians in the south as we would people who are farmworkers down here. And that became the foundation that would now is in our 15th year, and we are still going. 1:52:28 SM: That is excellent. And then the Stonewall award, you received that and what was the criteria? And how did you respond when you heard about it? And what does it mean to receive that award? 1:52:42 MC: Well it is quite an honor. I think the Stonewall would have to be put on the level of you know, if you get the Nobel Peace Prize, I do not know if you wanted to try to put something you know, close to what it would be. The Stonewall award was always given to people who were doing work in the queer community that really was that they recognize it acknowledged it and I think the first one I got I think it was 10,000 $5,000 check. Remember, it was a chunk of change, but it was really more of the acknowledgement um, it was surprised to me quite frankly because like a lot of people I just do the work because I know it has to get done. So, I am not interested in or not thinking about am I going to get acknowledgement for it, but to have been, and they do not tell you in advance, you are going to get it in fact, I came home to a FedEx package and in it-it said, dear Miss Carter, we want to tell you that, you know, we want to congratulate you on getting one of the five Stonewall awards. And there is a check enclosed and it was you know, whatever [audio cuts off] 1:53:41 SM: Just tape just click here you go, go ahead. 1:53:46 MC: Oh- 1:53:47 SM: You got the award. You were just it was just the point where you were saying you have got the award because- 1:53:52 MC: Oh, because they just get that there is an anonymous you do not know you are going to get it and you get nominated for it and the only way you know you have gotten it is when they send you a letter of congratulations and a check. And so, I came home one day I was living up in Maryland. I came home one day and there was a FedEx package waiting for me and I opened it up and, and it was a letter saying, dear Miss Carter, and we want to acknowledge and tell you, you know, congratulations, you are one of the five. Mm hmm. It is the Stonewall award and it was a check. I think it was for $10,000 I think. So, what I was saying though, Steve, is that I a lot of us do this work. You do not do it because you are going to get anything for it. But it is nice when you get the acknowledgement and recognition it was just came out of the blue. 1:54:39 SM: The I forgot to ask you what you thought of Gloria Steinem, Bella Epps, Betty Friedan, Shirley Chisholm, some of the leaders of the women's movement. 1:54:51 MC: Thank goodness for these women. I mean from so many of them, they are such role models. I just think about I know for me as a as a young woman, Black feminist lesbian and you are out here looking for other women who were strong and strident and believe in with their cause was just wonderful, amazing women and the roles that they played the cursory and someone like Gloria Steinem I think is already just turned 70 she was just here and look with this woman did Bella ABS suck, you know, elected official and feisty as can be, and Shirley Chisholm, black, you know, and, and, and it is just awesome. Now, I will tell you this, Steve, I think one of the qualities that I loved about these women is that they always said, it is not about me, you can be doing this too and you should be doing this and the ability to impart that kind of go out there and get this done. I did not see a whole lot of men saying that. Men do it more better now. But the women were just so much more into passing it on and you can do it and go for it and-and oh my gosh. 1:56:01 SM: That is a real that is a really good point. Because in Dr. Martin Luther King speeches, he would you know, he I know, I wish I had him in the room today to ask him what he feels about Martin Luther King Day because I think he would be very honored and very pleased, but if he had not been assassinated. And we are still in his (19)80s today and alive. I he has- he always said it was about we not me. Yeah, that is it. And what you are saying is that women leaders have always been saying, itis about we not me, were some of the male leaders in the early on, not so much all of the day, but were-were more about their own prestige and power. Is that- am I giving that right? 1:56:43 MC: Yes absolutely, yes-yes. Right. And you know, and I think part but I think it is a two-way problem. I think the media, and once again, I mean, the media it is just so interesting to me, I have gone to Germany. It is the only time I have ever been out of I have been to Germany and Zimbabwe. And what is so fascinating to me that this media is so personality driven? So that, you know, maybe you have been a demonstration, and you will hear the media come up and go, well, who's your spokesperson? Mm hmm. You know, versus Can I just talk to someone here about why you are here. And so, the media seems to be this obsession of who is-who is-who is-who is your leader. And of course, if you say, you are a leader, and people think, well, let us kill this person, because we get rid of them. We get rid of the movement that when I said earlier, no, it is not about killing anyone or offing any one or doing something to any one person because what you believe in is so dispersed with the people doing the work, that that movement goes on with or without you, because you have stood these values and women have, I think women have always gotten that instinctively. See, so their style is a lot more of Louis. You know, so and I just appreciate that. Oh, and I think but that is changing even now. I mean, you know, there is so much tough the young people today, and what you will get is like to scan lesbian thing. That is why we are making so much progress, I believe it is like, you know, what is the big deal? Who cares? You know, how am I identified? You know, who am I? And, and then Obama you know he is multiracial. Now you have got kids who are tri-racial and quad-racial and family being defined and we are in an amazing historic moment. I am so glad I have lived long enough to see all this. I am just I am just every day I get wake up. I am blown away. 1:58:25 SM: Well, I think that one of the magic moments in my life was when he was elected, then it back because to me, it was very special. And it is not always just because he is African American. I, I am so happy that they have seen that in my lifetime. But it is because of who he is and what he stands for and how articulate he is. And yes, he is the first ever I but peeps. What really astounds me is how people continue to try to find the Achilles heel in him constantly. And I think that is because they are upset that he won. Yes, I think it is-it is about they are jealous. They are-they are just plain jealous of him. And how could this happen? And many, many people who may have been against all these efforts back in the (19)60s and (19)70s, who are now boomers or younger, you know, but especially boomers, they can understand the battles that all groups have gone through. Finally, you know, a lot of the efforts are, are successful, some any, what do you think the lasting legacy when the best history books are written on the boomer generation, what the lasting legacy will be when they talk about this generation, and I mean, a generation, you know, as someone said to me, someone told me once they thought boomer generation was about white men. Well, I am talking I am trying to in this book to make the argument about everybody who was a boomer, right, whether- 1:59:54 MC: I would have to say I think I think that our generation will go down as the generation of hope. And I think our generation will go down as a generation of change. And sort of articulating more than that. I mean, I am just thinking back what I said, Steve to be in a generation in which we saw such-such a way to come into with the killing of the president and then you know, King and all that credible social movements that are going on and we-we sustain them. We show that, despite money and power and all that everyone to at us to stop us from stopping a war and also just corruption within the government. We saw that through. And I think the fact that we saw I was thinking about this with King and in fact, Coretta Scott King, lived long enough, no, wait, when did Coretta Scott King die? Was she? I do not think. 2:00:49 SM: Two years ago. I think she died in 2007. 2:00:52 MC: Yeah, because I mean, the fact the fact that you had a family and who they represented and who would know that when King gave his famous speech now of course with the "I Have a Dream" today, um, that Obama and understanding Obama did something amazing to me because I was supporting Hillary from day one. I wanted a woman in there really badly and I think that is going to happen sooner or later but I think history was right and we got Obama. But Obama did something amazing and maybe just swept people off. He said I am not I did not get this because I am a Barack Obama, I got here because of naming the names, you know, all the women and the people who had to fight for everything they had, as first citizens of this kind. I think people are either jealous of it. Do not believe that he could just be sincere. Like, you know, is he for real? Yeah, yeah, he is for real. And, and to realize that and for you and I to see the fruition of that. It was just amazing. Steve, I look up some times and I had to pinch myself and said this really happened. 2:01:51 SM: It is-it is almost like and again, I-I never met Dr. King, but I have read an awful lot about him. In fact, when I am done with this book, I want to do another book just on him, which is going to be an oral history on the Vietnam War and his decision to make that I just want that and interview people just on that issue alone, because not enough has been done. But he, he was the one we did a program in Westchester University where I brought Lynn Washington in and Dr. Megan Kate, a professor at Villanova. And we talked about we were not going to talk about the Big Four, on Dr. King Day, we were going to talk about the unsung heroes of the movement, the people who had died, whose names we will never know, and how important they were in the movement. It was like we were just like you said, there, you get on somebody else's shoulders you get on somebody else's shoulders. It is not about me, it is about we I do not care if my name is ever known, but I did my small part in that moving something forward. So that was, you have made some very important points here. One, one thing, one last question is, is there anything That you thought I was going to ask in this interview that I did not. And you would like to say something or as- 2:03:08 MC: I guess, I guess what I would say there is two things that I was thinking about knowing you were going to do this interview one of them. To me, Steve is the interesting demographic shift in this country. Mm hmm. And they say roughly between 2040 and 2050, this country movie majority people of color. That is profound. And, and I just wonder, when you think about that, 2040, 2050 I just, I just turned 62. I will be 62 this year, so I will still be around. But I am just wondering the impact of the (19)60s generation where I thought, the racial divide, but I thought I saw a lot of getting it about the equality thing across gender, certainly across orientation and color. I have a feeling that maybe the (19)60s generation people of our era might have a really important role to play when that transition continues to play. play out, you know, with more and more color, not less. So that might be something down the line to think about, you know, it is just what is what does that mean? What-what has that meant? So that was one thing. The other is just I think this interesting thing of what I seen were in a way the degeneration of the (19)60s really had a profound impact on our what we now see as our amazing, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender movement. I it is just-it is just astounding to me how fast this is, how fast this is happening. But a lot of the people who are at the forefront of this were people who came out of that antiwar movement who were lesbian, gay, out visible. And, and at the time, were told what was that got to do with anything and here we sit now with a lot of us out here being on the front lines of what I would perceive- 2:04:47 SM: So, you are, you are pretty, so my guess is you are pretty proud of the boomer generation gay and lesbian, America. 2:04:56 MC: My Gosh! Absolutely. 2:04:57 SM: Because that is important because that when I talk about that Boomer generation now I am talking about not only black and white and yellow and red and different ethnic groups from male gender male female but also sexual orientation It is important because they are all part of the boomer generation at it yeah and that is and some people have been disappointed in the boomers because so many went on to raise families make a lot of money and then just forget everything. And others have continued like yourself the longevity but overall, you think the boomer gay lesbian Americans have done quite a bit? 2:05:31 MC: Oh my god, absolutely no doubt about it. Just pivotal, my opinion pivotal and-and, you know, willing to be out there and be visible and the same thing with the women's movement as well. I mean, they that those I think those two movements came out of the antiwar movement, women's movement, bisexual transgender movement. Yeah. And we and here we are still doing it. 2:05:50 SM: So that is excellent. Well, if you have any suggestions of other names of individuals that you see I think would be a good interview. For this project so you can email me. Yeah. And I, you know, I know that when I when I interviewed David Harris, I said, can you get me to interview Joan Baez and all he well he is divorced from her now but still very close to her. You know? Yeah, he lives I think their child they live together in a house in Mill Valley. So, some of the key things in Joan Baez is one I would love to interview and but any of the other I sent a letter to Eleanor Smeal and Gloria Steinem and I remember the person I interviewed on Monday. Well, Gloria Steinem does not do many interviews, so you are lucky if you get anything with her, but- 2:06:39 MC: Ellie Smeal does, she is up there with the feminist majority. I am surprised she heard back from her. 2:06:44 SM: Now I have not heard from her I sent like, these are emails. I have been doing everything by email. And I am not sure sometimes secretaries even pass these on to. So, I emailed Gloria Steinem and I emailed them. Eleanor Smeal, and I asked David but David just simply said she is too busy. David Harris, for Joan Baez. And so, but there may be other people I am missing here. And so, if you put your thinking cap on about people, not only the gay and lesbian community, but female leaders who would be great to head because right now about I would say about 70 percent are men and 30 percent are women. A lot of a lot of the women like Phyllis Schlafly and Linda Chavez and conservatives, I did not get a response from them. So, some people just do not respond by Janet Snark, a female Vietnam vet on the board she did not respond to there is some people that, you know, I am making the effort, but I need more female voices. So, no question. 2:07:41 MC: Let me think about that. And I have your contact info. Steven. So, let me let me think about that and try to send you some folks that I might know. That would be great. Like I said, you know, as we saw out of that movement, we saw the feminist movement, the women's movement, whatever and off and on either side of the sense, but I am also thinking women of color as well. You know some yeah. 2:08:00 SM: That cat free. I have not. I am going to be interviewing Christy Kiefer, I have that link, Sam. I got her because she is on the list and there is some Professor Roma. I have Pauline Roma do not ever name for she is in San Francisco State. She hasn't responded yet. That was another list. I certainly sent an email to Angela Davis. I have not got a response from her. 2:08:21 MC: But yet. 2:08:22 SM: Now, but Bettina Aptheker, I am going to interview her in January because she is coming back east Anna for five months, because I guess she is on sabbatical and she is going to be teaching at Columbia so I can, uh, interview her in person as opposed to on the phone. But- 2:08:42 MC: Where are you located? 2:08:43 SM: I am in Westchester, Pennsylvania, right outside Philadelphia, and I am about same age that you are I graduated from SUNY Binghamton in 1970. I was a history major. Then, then I went off to Ohio State to grad school and student personnel in higher ed and my advisor was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, a 29-year-old African American male from Southern Illinois University, University of Illinois, Champaign Urbana, and he had a tremendous impact on my life in grad school because our graduate program was all about, you know, the-the issues that were going on between black and white Americans at that time. And so that is kind of my specialty area. I am involved with those issues. My whole life. And-and he is, he has been at Johns Hopkins University for quite a few years, and I believe he is just retired. So, I kind of stay in touch with him every year. We go to lunch. Okay, so he has been an inspiration along with my parents, but yeah, but this is I love history. I loved interviewing people and I love interviewing people. I feel comfortable with everybody. Yeah-yeah, because you know, but I feel comfortable with Vietnam vets, I feel, yeah, I just I love doing this and it is, and I would have left my university position to work on this to make you know, to continue the process. And hopefully young people will read this and they will learn from it because it is all about modeling. 2:10:06 MC: I think it is great. 2:10:08 SM: Okay, well, um, I guess that is it. 2:10:11 MC: Okay. Well, I just want to- 2:10:14 SM: Go ahead. 2:10:16 MC: I just cannot hear you. I am getting feedback. Can you still hear me? Yes. Huh. Okay. But I wanted to say to you is that I think your timing is awesome, because I was sitting here thinking is that as we keep on aging on in our memories is so crisp and clear, but the best, honing in on this, I just think it is wonderful. It is fantastic. And I love the question asking, and I just, I just feel like you are, you know, I do not know, I think it is just fortuitous. And I think what you said about wanting to write a book about Martin Luther King and his decision to do that Vietnam Yes. section that that is that that someone has to explore that if you take that on, because that is why was that not part of any written history and I think people were so nervous because there was a lot of drama. And yet that was one of the most historical pivotal moments, in my opinion, not only his civil rights, and all of a sudden understanding about the word Vietnam that touched so many different aspects in American society and King who knew that you know what the consequences that was but normally exploited. So, for you to put energy into that with being incredible. 2:11:20 SM: Well, I have tried to link up but you know, I have even written a letter to Martin Luther King or emailed Martin Luther King, the third and Joe Lowery. I did not get a response from them. A lot of the bigger you know, they do not know me from probably a hole in the wall. But the question is that I always ask is, are their secretaries and the people that work for them passing these up to them? And then is oftentimes that I find out that is where the problem is so. 2:11:42 MC: Or could it be they do not want to go there? If you thought of that? 2:11:45 SM: Yeah, that is-that is a possible use. Couple university presidents said they did not want to be interviewed because obviously if they were talking about boomers that could affect the bottom line in their university. Because I wanted to interview Leon Botstein and Bard, and Dr. Mote at the University of Maryland because I think they are both brilliant and both them so they had no time. Well, I know they had time, they had time for my- to bring my students to meet them, but they do not have time for this. And that is because they are still university presidents and but I am going to, you know, in the back of my mind when they leave their university positions if you do not think this project may be over, but if you do not think I am going to talk to them about that or king, that is another thing because I like both of them. They are really great brother. Yeah. So yeah, the only other thing I want to mention is I take pictures of all of my people and obviously I cannot take pictures of you because you are too far away. So I will need pictures of you eventually not right away. And maybe at some juncture in the next six months, I might be able to see you and I will take your picture. because that will be. 2:12:45 MC: Do you need to take them through something you can use it or I can- 2:12:49 SM: Yeah you can, you can send them to me some pictures that I can use now and if by some chance between now and next few nights, I link up I can take pictures of you. That would be great because I am taking pictures with my camera of everybody. Okay, but I do need a picture if I can. And I tell you what an honor to thank you for taking two hours and 20 minutes of your time to be interviewed. 2:13:13 MC: Oh, this is awesome. And I want to thank Callie for passing in the name on that. See, that is what I meant about women willing to go ahead and say hear some other person hears. I mean, hi. And I just talked about longevity. Come on. 2:13:24 SM: Yeah, well, I, you know, Holly, I did not know how I met Holly. But she did not remember meeting me back at Kent State in 1974 when I was just in my first job. So, but I only a couple years ago, she came to our campus and then she did a program for activist series. And then I mentioned to her that I was writing a book, but I did not do I did not contact her for over two years. And then I finally contacted her through her agent. And then her agent said, Yes, you would like to do the interview and I sent the questions ahead and that juncture did the interview and then I asked her if she would list some names and so she listed seven names and another one is Dr. Brunch or Bunch. I think her name is yes, she has not responded either, but, but I am, I am thankful that she gave me those names. So- 2:14:13 MC: No, that is great. Well, like you said, that is what that you know. 2021 That is great. Okay, Steve, well, let us stay in touch. I got your contact info send a couple of pictures. And you know, I just I am just so thankful and happy to tell you till someone asked his questions. I never think about this stuff. It is like I am looking ahead, you know, and like what we are doing now and realizing we have to think about where we have come from as well. So. 2:14:35 SM: Okay, and send me some names. And if you know Joan Baez, St. Louis is great guy you interviewed your former husband and myself will be great for the interview. 2:14:45 MC: So, I do know I do not I do not know where to pick up the phone. But I know she is sitting down there in Woodside, California. You know, why she tours? I do not even know why she is still out on the road touring. It is amazing and all her audience of course is all from the (19)60s but right you know, it comes to Durham Once a year, so who knows? Maybe. 2:15:03 SM: Alright, well, thanks again. Okay. Thanks, Steve. Have a great day and carry on. 2:15:08 MC: Thank you. 2:15:09 SM: Bye now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mandy Carter Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carter, Mandy ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Human rights workers; African American sexual minorities; Carter, Mandy--Interviews Description An account of the resource Mandy Carter, a native of Albany, NY, is an activist for the African-American LGBT community. She attended Hudson Valley Community College. After leaving college, she won a Spirit of Justice award for helping to increase awareness for the LGBT community and for quickening the process of acceptance of the LGBT community. She was nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize as one of the "1000 Women for the Nobel Peace Prize 2005." Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-12-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.32a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.32b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 135:15 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d030771d3a56d74cab404a1736dcd8fe.jpg dd1fc508dd35c0e0dcbb841942d7ed8c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/06e53e7fea887bb9d6469337f8991acd.mp3 14372d253dead6c1740f2e9eb2744803 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-12-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip Caputo Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for Horn of Africa. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6531,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for the <em>Horn of Africa</em>. </span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Drug culture; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Walter Cronkite.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Vietnam War; Anti-War Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Drug culture; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Walter Cronkite.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 140:17 Subject LCSH Journalists; Authors; Marines; Caputo, Philip--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Phil Caputo Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 12 December 2012 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): ... Going here. When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? PC (00:00:09): The first thing that comes to mind. Well, okay. I was not ready for that one for some reason. Well, the war does to me. I cannot think of a specific time or scene in the war, but that is what I think of. I mean, I always revert with that era back to Vietnam, the war. SM (00:00:50): When- PC (00:00:51): And then probably the other thing, of course, it sticks in my mind now I think of it, let us say there is two first things. One is just the war in general, and then more specifically was the Democratic convention riots in (19)68 in Chicago, which I happened to cover part of that. SM (00:01:12): Oh, wow. PC (00:01:13): ... As a Cub reporter, so that is probably why it sticks in my mind. SM (00:01:18): Well, since you mentioned that, what really happened at that convention in (19)68? Who was responsible or was it both of the police being overly brutal or a lot of irresponsible young people creating habits? PC (00:01:35): Oh, it was absolutely both. It was like a bull fight between the matador and the bull. You cannot have one without the other. And now you can argue as to who was the matador and who was the bull. But there was kind of dynamic operating there where, I cannot say all the protestors because there were thousands of them, but many of them. And particularly I think some of the more radical leaders, wanted to provoke a violent police response and a lot of the cops wanted to respond violently so they in effect provoked each other. SM (00:02:33): When you think about that experience, what did you think about America at that time? Because you insert in Vietnam, I think in (19)65 and (19)66, came back home. Then as we get into the (19)67, (19)68 period, things kind of rev up in the United States in terms of anti-war. But you probably had a lot of different feelings as a person who served, came back, and then was back as a reporter. Just your thoughts on just being in that experience and your thoughts on America at that time. PC (00:03:10): Well, I remember distinctly, and it started well before actually (19)67 or (19)68 when I got back from Vietnam in the summer of (19)66 and I got home right after some of the Watts riots in Los Angeles, the race riots. And then similar riots occurred in (19)66, I think also in Chicago, which was where I was from. And I remember when I flew home reading, seeing these headlines in the paper about these really extensive race riots, for lack of a better term, I guess, and feeling really uneasy. And that increased his time went on. So that by (19)68, I had the feeling that America was going to fragment into something like a new civil war. And I really felt that the society was beginning to pull itself into pieces. And a lot of it too was reflected in a lot of the pop music of the day, that Creedence Clearwater song, Bad Moon Rising, and oh, I think it was, I cannot remember. I do not think he wrote it then, but it certainly embodied some of the spirit, like Fortunate Son and some of those tunes, that had this almost doom haunted quality about them. I really felt like we were going to be lucky to hang together as a society and as a country. SM (00:05:27): When you look at that Boomer generation, which is that young generation that was born between (19)46 and (19)64, what are some of the qualities that you admired in the young generation at that time and the qualities you are least admired? PC (00:05:45): Well, I can sort of speak as an almost outsider. I think I told you in the email is I am not a Boomer. SM (00:05:54): I want to mention that over half the people we have interviewed are not Boomers but they lived during the time. PC (00:05:59): Yeah. I am four years shy of it. SM (00:06:01): Right. PC (00:06:05): Well, I think the quality that I admired most was, again, we have to qualify these things. We are talking about a segment of that particular generational cohort, but a significant segment both in terms of its numbers and of its educational level or its leadership level would be a better way to put it. And what I admired was its commitment to improving the world, of wanting to make a better world. It was real. And I think there was definitely a very passionate feeling throughout that generation toward that end. And this is what I least admired about it, is that it was a generation that had never really known hardship. It was probably one of the very first truly privileged generations in America. And so consequently, whenever what it wanted and what its goals were and so forth, were frustrated. I think it tended to act immaturely, almost, I do not know. There were sometimes some of those war anti-war protests that I covered as a reporter almost struck me as these vast mass temper tantrums. And unfortunately, a lot of its political commitment got co-opted, even commercialized and became very self-indulgent. SM (00:08:20): How do you respond to this feeling that many felt that they were the most unique generation in American history? Because I can remember being on college campus at that time and this feeling of community and togetherness, that we are a generation that is going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, end war. We are going to do things that no other generation has done, bring peace to the world. This feeling of uniqueness that they had, and I think some Boomers still have it as they approach 60 years of age. The oldest Boomers now are approaching early retirement [inaudible] social security, so, but some still believe that. So, what are your thoughts on their feeling unique? PC (00:09:05): Well, I do not know about unique. There was a generation in the thirties that was certainly is politically committed as the generation of the (19)60s, maybe committed to some different ends to improving a lot of the common man to things like the Labor Movement and so forth. And they were very committed and they wanted to change the world in the way things had been done for decades, if not centuries. But I would say that the (19)60s generation was if not unique, certainly highly unusual. And they did. As I said, one of the things I admired is they wanted to end all of these ills of, like you said, end the war, poverty, end homophobia, end the exploitation of the environment and so forth, end sexism. By all those movements, the environmental movement, feminist movement, and the civil rights movement, although they certainly did not begin during the (19)60s, that the whole revolutionary impulse advanced those causes. And interestingly, just as something aside is that the fury generated by the war, the anti-war movement, I think was the fire and the boiler. I have a feeling that had there been no Vietnam War and no anti-war movement, all of those movements I just talked about, the civil rights, the feminist’s movement, and the environmental movement, and probably, well, those three [inaudible], I think they would have proceeded at a slower pace and probably at a more peaceful pace. SM (00:11:30): It is interesting because that was my next question. Because oftentimes all these movements developed when they were young, and people have different feelings of these movements as they have gotten older and how effective they are compared to what they were then. One of the things that is interesting is many of these movements, if you see a protest, many of these same groups that were unique in their own way, were all together at the protests. You have to include the Native American movement, the Ang group, certainly the Chicano movement, and the gay and lesbian movement along with civil rights, anti-war, the women's movement and the environmental movement. And I even believe the disability movement was starting then so that these were all kind of connected. PC (00:12:16): Yeah, they were. They all drew energy, I think. They were cables leading to the same generator, and I think they were all, again, fueled by the same impulse which was to change the world for the better. SM (00:12:38): This is a question I have asked everyone. When you hear people like Newt Gingrich and George Will and other political pundits criticize the (19)60s generation or the era of the (19)60s and (19)70s as the time that America really started going backward, the breakdown of American society. There will always be commentaries where the divorce rate began then, lack of commitment and in terms of family, victim mentality was really started around then, the drug culture, the breakup of the American family, you name it. And the Democratic party paid a heavy price in (19)72, and George McGovern lost. And I can remember Barney Frank wrote a book speaking frankly saying the Democratic party better disassociate itself from that left group that was anti-war or that party will be destroyed. Just your thoughts on these criticisms that all the problems in American society are based on that period. PC (00:13:50): Put it this way, it is a half-truth. In other words, what they are saying is true insofar as it goes, but what they are not saying makes it somewhat of a falsification. I am convinced that a lot of the good things, at least to my mind good things, that have happened in America since then would not have happened had it not been for, again, the call it that revolutionary highly idealistic spirit. The problem is that I think in any social movement... Well, let me back up a second. It is not unlike what a lot of economic conservatives, when they talk about capitalism, they talk about capitalism's creative destruction, if you are familiar with that term. That is kind of what happened in the (19)60s. There is no doubt that, again, the self-indulgent face of that generation is largely responsible for the prevalence of drug use in America. The idea that society had to be remade from the bottom up has been responsible for the breakup of the American family or partly responsible, again, the self-indulgence for the higher divorce rate, but only in part. So, in other words, a lot of things that a George will or a Newt Gingrich say, again, are true insofar as they go, but they leave out the other side of the argument. SM (00:16:10): What were the watershed moment when the (19)60s began and when the (19)60s ended? PC (00:16:20): Well, I have actually talked about this in some speeches I have given. And to my own mind, I certainly would not speak as some kind of historian who is giving you something chiseled in stone. To my own mind. The (19)60s began with the assassination of John Kennedy in November 21st, 1963, and they ended with the fall of Saigon. SM (00:16:57): That was April 30th of 1975, I believe. PC (00:17:01): Yeah. So, what we called the (19)60s actually was only part of the (19)60s and was also part of the (19)70s. SM (00:17:13): I have asked this question, and again, I can get different responses. But if you were in a room with 500 Boomers and these Boomers were from all over the country, and they were of all ethnic groups, males, female, different qualities, and you asked them if is there one event in your life that had the greatest impact on you, what do you think that event would be? And we're talking about Boomer lives that had lots of events. PC (00:17:47): Yeah. Boy, that would be a one event. Well, probably again, this Boomer generation since some of them were, I think do not sociologists classify it as being up people born up to 1964? SM (00:18:07): Yes. PC (00:18:09): So I got to qualify that a little bit. I got to split my answer. I would say for older Boomers, the assassination of John Kennedy would be the signal event. For younger ones, I would call it the Kent State shootings. SM (00:18:32): Right. Now, I have a question on that later in the interview that we will go into. How important in your views were the college students in ending the Vietnam War? All the protests on college campuses? PC (00:18:49): I do not think very effective at all. SM (00:18:52): Explain in detail or just your thoughts. PC (00:18:57): Well, first of all, what really ended the war was the North Vietnamese invasion of South Vietnam in 1975. But I think you are really talking about our part in the war. And what led to the withdrawal of American forces from there was the growing perception on the part of the American mainstream, the American middle class, what Nixon called the silent majority, that the war was futile, that we were wasting many lives and a lot of money over there toward no end or an uncertain end. And I think that is what led, we can argue about Nixon's how much withdrawing he really did have American forces, but he did begin to withdraw them even if it took it four years. And I think that is really what ended the war. Probably if there was one event that encapsulated that feeling, it was the moment when Walter Cronkite, the great face of the American mainstream, said at the end of his newscast that, I do not recall his exact words, but he pretty much told the American public that his experiences in Vietnam had led him to the conviction that it was not a winnable war and that we ought to get out. SM (00:20:48): And again, this is just from your personal observations from being a reporter, a writer, an observer of America over the past 40 plus years, do you think Boomers have been good parents and now grandparents? And I preface this by saying that the generation is often looked upon as an activist generation, but only really 15 percent in my readings of the period were involved in any kind of an activism and 85 percent just went on with their lives. PC (00:21:23): Yeah, I wanted to bring that up too. SM (00:21:24): But subconsciously though, probably all of them were somewhat affected by this. And I am just curious as your thoughts on if you feel the Boomer generation of 74 to 78 million depending on what you read, have been good parents, not only in terms of sharing what it was like when they were young and giving their sons and daughters a belief in idealism that they can be positive change agents for the betterment of society, just activism or just your thoughts on them as parents and now as believe it or not as grandparents? PC (00:22:01): Yeah, I do not think I could answer that for when you are talking, what did you say, 74 million people? SM (00:22:12): Yeah. PC (00:22:15): I just know about my wife, my second wife, is a Boomer who was born in (19)53, and my sister-in-law who was born in (19)55 as a Boomer, let me think. I got friends of mine who were born in the late forties. I am just speaking of them. The ones that I know, that is all I can tell you. SM (00:22:37): That is fine. That is fine. PC (00:22:38): The ones that I know have been certainly I would say probably better parents than I was. I was really an old school parent, old school father, kind of disassociated somewhat from the lives of my children. I was the stern, ex-marine disciplinarian kind of thing. And the ones I have seen were much more involved, I think, in the lives of their children and really hands on in getting to do well in school and to achieve something in life. That is about all I can say. And I am talking about maybe at most 10 people, 10 sets of parents I should say. And I could not speak for such a huge ass number. SM (00:23:49): This is something very important. I got two more big questions here, and I am going to get into really direct questions on your experiences in Vietnam and the impact, and your writing and everything. I have to read this one though. I took a group of students when I was working at Westchester University, it must have been about 10 years ago now. We took a group of 14 student leaders to Washington DC to meet Senator Edmund Muskie. And we were able to arrange this because Senator Nelson was a friend of his, and we had a series of meeting former senators. And one of the questions the students came up with was a question that we asked him, the one I am going to read to you, and we got an unusual response from him. And let me read it here. Do you feel Boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, the division between Black and White, divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. What role did the wall play in healing divisions? Or was it primarily a healing for veterans? And do you feel that the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, "Time heals all wounds," a truth? And I just want to mention that we thought Senator Muskie was going to talk about the (19)68 convention, which he was the candidate. And he kind of gave a melodramatic pause and he said, "I just saw the Ken Burns series in the Civil War when I was in the hospital." He had just gotten out of the hospital. "And we have not healed since the Civil War." And then he went out to talk for about 10, 15 minutes on that and never even talked about (19)68. Your thoughts on the healing issue in America. Is this an issue? PC (00:25:47): Well, I would not call it an issue. I would simply say that first of all, I really understand where Muskie was coming from when he mentioned the Civil War. Because again, in certain talks that I would give on topics like this one, I have talked about the American Civil War and how the repercussions of it just echoed and echoed for at least a century after Appomattox and probably longer than a century. And again, we must be careful, but I guess we have to for sake of argument of setting up these dichotomies, those who supported the troops and those who did not and blah, blah, blah. But just for the sake of argument, we will say that they existed. Well, it is quite obvious that among that Boomer generation, that those divisions in attitude and outlook and politics have echoed very loudly down to our own bay. And all you had to do was take a look at the 2004 presidential election. That is the one that I have cited quite often, is that all of those serpents that have been crawling around in the mines of the Boomer generation came out when Kerry ran against Bush. SM (00:27:29): Yes. PC (00:27:30): It was almost like the two of them were incarnations of the two faces of that particular generation. SM (00:27:42): Could you talk a little bit- PC (00:27:43): I remember actually being called by, I do not know why he called me, but he did. I was called by a reporter from the Houston Chronicle during all that business of the Swift boat veterans and so forth. And he asked what I thought about it. And I said, "Well, here we are involved in two other wars now, the Iraq and Afghanistan, and we are re-fighting this one," I said, "That took place 35 years ago." I reminded him that more time had passed between 2004 and the end of the Vietnam War than it had passed between the Custer Massacre and the beginning of World War I. And he agreed. He said he was 33 or years old or something at the time, or 35, and he said he was just stunned by this. He said, "Why are these guys re-fighting these old battles?" Well, it is the same reason that I guess the South and the North and the Confederates and the Union people really re-fought the Civil- PC (00:29:03): People really re-fought the Civil War in one form or another for, as I say, a century after the last shot was fired. SM (00:29:12): That is really interesting. When I asked that question to Senator Nelson, he said, "Well, people do not go across Washington or are not walking on down the street of Washington DC with lack of healing on their wrists or on their shirts." But he did say Vietnam will forever have an impact on the body politic, and I thought that was very prophetic. And Mr. Caputo, one of the interesting things is that just about every foreign policy happening that takes place, people always talk about Vietnam. It's amazing. PC (00:29:49): [inaudible] Right now, with Afghanistan, is that second thing. SM (00:29:52): If you recall when President Reagan came into power, he said, "America is back." And he emphatically was saying, from the divisions that we had back in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and he was going to change America back to the way it was, kind of like John Wayne. And then of course, President Bush senior talked about the Vietnam syndrome is over. And again, I am going to get into some direct questions here, but when you think of Ronald Reagan's presidency and what he meant to America, and when you think about George Bush Sr and his presidency and saying the Vietnam syndrome was over, as a Vietnam vet, what were your thoughts on those two presidents and what they said? PC (00:30:36): Well, if we take George Bush Sr first, when he said the Vietnam syndrome, he was defining it very narrowly, and not even toward foreign policy, it was toward military action. And he was just basically saying that we are no longer fearful of committing military forces toward the defense or furtherance of our interests, the way we had been, I guess, paralyzed or semi-paralyzed in the wake that Vietnam. That is what he was saying. Then, I think he was right about that. In other words, that he was correct in his analysis of it, I think somewhat to our misfortune. I think had we been a bit more reluctant, we may not have gotten involved in what I still regard as this really stupid and unnecessary war in Iraq. Now, as far as Reagan went, I think what happened there was that the voice of the other people you were talking about, that 85 percent who had gotten on with their lives, or perhaps that 85 percent whose voice is heard in the Newt Gingrich’s and the George Will’s, that particular aspect of the boomer generation found its hero. When I think of Reagan though, the thing that troubles me, and by the way, I voted for him, and I am a lifelong Democrat. And I voted for him the first time, with Carter and all that, and then did not the second time. But the one thing that troubled me about his administration was I think the elevating of that materialistic element in the American character into a kind of, I do not know, almost a dogma, a sacred text. I remember when he said that something about the great glory of America, or the great thing about America is that anybody can become a millionaire. And now, that is been with us probably maybe our entire history, but certainly since the advent of the industrial age in America. But I remember being struck by that, and I said, "That is it? That is what this country is all about? Becoming a millionaire?" And I think that that led a lot to that, to what I would call the transformation of the self-indulgent aspect of the boomer generation into that scramble in the (19)80s to just make lots and lots and lots of money. SM (00:34:08): Yeah, I think- PC (00:34:08): I certainly saw all kinds of boomers who told me that they had been in anti-war protests, stuff like that, who were working on Wall Street and raking it in. I can remember one guy, as a matter of fact, we were in the Oak Room of the Plaza Hotel, he and his wife, and me and my wife. And I do not know, he had been in a couple of marches and all that. Now, I think he was some sort of rising muckety muck with Salomon Brothers or Goldman Sack, I forget which. And we were drinking martinis. And then I said, "Oh, man, we got to get back to Connecticut, my wife and me, and we got to catch a cab and catch a train." He says, "Oh, fuck the cab, fuck the train." And he just gets on the phone and [inaudible] this stretch limo and takes us all home. So that, to me, was the Reagan era. That is one of the things that bothered me about that era was. And then I think too, is that just in a specific policy argument, that deficit spending that he led us into- SM (00:35:36): You still there? PC (00:35:37): ... has been really detrimental. And his breaking up of labor unions, when I told you I am an old-time democrat, that [inaudible] electrical... SM (00:35:47): Oh, hold on one second. Can you hold on one second? PC (00:35:51): Yeah, sure. SM (00:35:51): Okay. Somebody is trying to get... You still there? PC (00:35:53): Yeah. Still here. SM (00:35:55): That was my brother. PC (00:35:56): Oh, okay. SM (00:35:58): Go ahead. That is okay. Go ahead. PC (00:36:03): Oh [inaudible]. See, where was I? Hold on. SM (00:36:05): You were a martini and you were going to fly back and... PC (00:36:09): Oh, yeah. Well, I think that was when I mentioned that Reagan also, I think, led to, accelerated the breakup of the American labor movement, which I think has been detrimental to our society. I think it is hardened class lines. I think it has been partly responsible for the lack of growth in wages for the American working man and woman. And I criticize them for that. I was sorry I voted for him for that reason alone. SM (00:36:51): No, a lot of people, in recent articles, said that part of the problems we are having in America in the economy today is that self-indulgent boomer generation. Spend, spend, spend, spend, materialism, and then of course, the credit card problems and everything. So, a lot of blames been put on them even for that. PC (00:37:11): Yeah. Well, I think that that is going a bit far. I see all these people who pouring into Walmart, or at least they were before the economy collapsed. SM (00:37:30): Exactly. PC (00:37:30): And I do not think they were responding to some sort leadership from the boomer generation in that. I just think that there is a lot of reasons why we're economically here. But I think that some of Reagan's policies are certainly responsible. SM (00:37:47): If you were to just respond directly to this question, why did the Vietnam War end? Why did it end? Some people say it ended when body bags came, when families in middle America had their boys are coming home in body bags in middle America. That that was really the beginning of the end. Why did we lose that war? PC (00:38:15): Well as, wait just a second. Could you hold on one second? SM (00:38:21): Yep. PC (00:38:21): I thought I heard somebody at the door. SM (00:38:24): Okay. PC (00:38:24): May not have been. Hold on. SM (00:38:26): Yep. Yep. PC (00:38:27): It was false alarm. SM (00:38:32): Okay. PC (00:38:33): Now, the question was is why did we lose the war? SM (00:38:36): Yes. PC (00:38:38): Well, I think it has been pointed out in a lot of, not just books and interpretations, but the direct testimony of the Lyndon Johnson tapes, that a lot of people, that Johnson, Senator Russell back then, and then a lot of the great minds of that time knew that the war was not winnable to begin with. So why was it not winnable? Is that it was basically a civil war between, just as ours was, between the north and the south. The north was as motivated by Vietnamese nationalism and a drive or desire to unite the country as it was by Marxist ideology. In many ways, Marxist ideology just simply provided the framework and the discipline for those nationalistic aims to be realized. There is a lot of strategic military reasons. We had extremely long lines of supply and communication. We were fighting in an alien culture, about which we knew next to nothing. It was partly a conventional war, but partly also an insurgency, and it's always very difficult for foreign powers to win insurgencies. And I think for all those reasons, and in the end, probably the main reason was is it was always the South Vietnamese's war to win or lose. Yeah, South Vietnamese society was too fragmented and too confused in its aims to win the war against the north. But I think what happened in (19)75, there is all sorts of people say, "Oh, if we had sent the B-52s in there, that the North would not have won. Well, yes, we probably would have stopped them in (19)75. And then I would say that in 1977, they would have tried the same thing again, and we would have just gone on and on and on. SM (00:41:28): One of the qualities that somewhat linked to the boomers is this issue of trust. Boomers went through their lives seeing leaders lie to them. Of course, Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, Nixon and Watergate, even in recent years, as boomers got older, the questions of President Kennedy, how much did he know about the DM overthrow? And Sorensen's tried to clarify that in his latest book, but there were still questions. And even young boomers saw President Eisenhower lying on TV about the U2 incident. And I remember that, coming home from school and seeing him say those things. The next day, he admitted he had lied or had not told the truth. And of course, we would go on and on and on through a lot of different presidents, whether they lied or did not quite tell the truth. When I was in college, I remember a college professor telling me that the issue of trust is very important, if you are to be a success in life as a human being. And to not trust others means that you may not be a success yourself in life. And I asked myself, that is always stuck with me. And Boomers just never... Or the (19)60s was just a-a period where many of them did not trust anybody in positions of responsibility, whether they be a university president or a vice president of student affairs or a minister or a priest or a politician or a president or a corporate leader, anybody in a position of responsibility, there was a lacking trust. Your thoughts on whether this is indeed a quality that many in the boomer generation had? And if this is a really negative quality to have as boomers age, what has this done in terms of raising their children to think the same? PC (00:43:29): Well, first of all, yeah, question one is that, yes, I do think that the distrust of official authority, maybe not now, but certainly was a characteristic of many of that generation, not all. Do not forget, again, we're talking about this percentage of them that was the most visible and the most vocal. But it was justified. The fact of the matter is they and the entire American public were lied to in big ways, repeatedly. And Winston Churchill once famously said that during wartime, the truth must be guarded by a body guard of lies. And yes, every now and then, it is necessary for national security reasons to lie or at least to shape the truth or withhold the truth. But in this case here, our national security was not involved, whether we're talking about Vietnam, or there was other things going on Southeast Asia, Laos and Thailand, I remember was there was problems there and so forth. And the Diem execution is another example. Our national security was not involved there. These were the secrets of the CIA. So that boomers who distrusted official authority, in many of its forms, were right to feel so. Because the highest levels of their government were lying to them consistently and in ways that could and did affect their very lives. Because of those lies, there's 60,000 dead guys up there now, memorialized on that wall. And probably twice as many without arms or legs or eyes or even minds. Now, so far as it being a trait that is going to, I do not know what, make you a failure or something like that, I do not buy that. I think that questioning authority is basically a good thing. Because I am an old reporter, so skepticism is part of my DNA. SM (00:46:30): All right. PC (00:46:32): Yeah. So that skepticism's part of my DNA as an old reporter, but I think that one should be skeptical of what one hears. SM (00:46:43): Could you comment on, again, how important the music was of the boomer generation, in terms of not only rock folk and the Motown sound, but how important that was in inspiring the generation? It obviously had quite an impact. And secondly, what were the books that you were reading that you felt had the greatest impact, not only on you, but on these young boomers as they were in the (19)60s and (19)70s? PC (00:47:18): I think that as far as the famed music of that era, the protest music and all that, obviously it coalesced as all art, pop, whether it is high art or low art or pop art or some other art coalesced, the spirit of the times gave people anthems that they could identify with. Although, I think the music, like most of the culture of the time, I meant the artistic culture, was more a product of the times than it actually shaped times. Two books that I remember most, that affected me the most during that time were Catch-22 and Slaughterhouse Five. SM (00:48:11): Huh. What did those books say to you? PC (00:48:16): Well, Catch-22, first of all, is that on a literary sense, it kind of showed that the traditional novel need not be the only form of the novel, that there were radical new ways to go about writing a novel. I would say that for both of them, particularly for Slaughterhouse five. And both of them just discussed, explored at great length, not the tragedy of war, but the absurdity of it. And, of course, Catch-22 went beyond that, and just into an examination of the absurdity of modern bureaucratic society, with the military that Heller described being a microcosm of that society. SM (00:49:22): What do you think of the movies that have been made since the war and trying to explain the Vietnam experience, your thoughts on them? And secondly, well, just respond to that first. PC (00:49:38): Well, I think that it has been pretty uneven. Except for the most surrealistic of all the films. That was Apocalypse Now. I have not been overly impressed with what Hollywood has turned out [inaudible]. Although there was a rather obscure film called Go Tell It to the Spartans. SM (00:50:18): Oh, wow. PC (00:50:18): That came out, and I think it was Burt Lancaster was in it. And I thought that that was a very good film that it certainly, but it looked at an aspect of the Vietnam War rather than was a kind of big, sweeping epic of the whole war. So, no, I have not been overwhelmed by any of films. SM (00:50:46): What other books on Vietnam that do you really like? Whether they be novels or just non-fiction books that you really think are the best, for the respect to telling the story about Vietnam in the (19)60s? PC (00:51:04): Well, I could not say the (19)60s. I would have to think about that. But as far as the Vietnam War goes, for my own taste, the two best novels were Tim O'Brien's Going After Cacciato and The Things They Carried. But you can argue The Things They Carried is really a novel or a series of short stories, but we will not get into that hairsplitting at the moment. I think there were several other very fine novels about it, that were more traditional kinds of novels, but that were very, very good. Like Webb's Fields of Fire, and Joseph Del Vecchio's The 13th Valley. Those were more in the kind of Norman Mailer Naked and the Dead tradition. But I think they were very good. The best nonfiction that I have read about it was, without question, again, there's some really good ones, but was, without question, was A Bright Shining Lie, Sheehan's. SM (00:52:36): What do you think of how- PC (00:52:37): But followed by, I would say, followed very closely by Fire in the Lake, The Best and the Brightest, and Once Upon a Distant War, which was not so much about the war, it was about the media or press coverage about the war, but it was very, very, very good. SM (00:52:58): What did you think of David Halberstam's The Making of a Quagmire? PC (00:53:07): I guess that is sort of overshadowed in my... No, I was not bowled over by it the way I was by the other ones. SM (00:53:15): And one last book I want to mention, and did you have a chance to read Fortunate Son by Lewis Puller? PC (00:53:21): No, I did not. SM (00:53:22): Go ahead, it is a great book. PC (00:53:24): Yeah. I was told it was, and I think by the time it came out, I was kind of saturated with the subject. SM (00:53:33): Photography has been very important part of any era. It explains an era. The picture says a thousand words. When you think of the Vietnam, but when you think of the (19)60s, what are the photography pictures that first come to mind? I have three that I really pinpointed here, but I would like your responses before I mention my three. PC (00:53:56): Well, let us see. I got to think about as far as Vietnam goes, one, in fact, there is a signed copy of it hangs on my wall. It was Don McLellan's photograph from the Battle of Wei during the Tet Offensive, of what appears to be this shell shocked Marine. I forgot if he has got a title for it or not. And it's on the more recent paperback, the 1996 paperback edition of Rumor of War has a sepia tone version of that photograph as its cover. If you can take a look at it. SM (00:54:42): Okay. PC (00:54:43): Then the second one, again, from Vietnam, would be Larry Burrow's photograph of these wounded Marines on this miserable shell-pocked muddy hilltop, somewhere near the DMZ, and one guy has got bandage around his eyes. SM (00:55:05): Yep, I remember that one. Yeah. PC (00:55:06): And he is reaching his hand out to somebody else. That photograph. And then there is, and I cannot remember the photographer on this one, but there is a haunting picture of a medevac, and it is a captain deep in the jungle somewhere with a dead soldier covered by a body bag next to him. And he is calling a helicopter in through some clearing in the jungle. And there is this almost ethereal light shining down on this captain as he looks toward the sky. It could almost be corny, but it is not. SM (00:55:54): Wow. PC (00:55:54): Those three. Boy, now, far as the (19)60 era goes, but I cannot think of any specific. SM (00:56:09): The three that I was thinking of was the girl standing over the body at Kent State. PC (00:56:16): Right. I was about to say that one. And, of course, I know we're back to Vietnam though, but it was the famous one of the AP photograph of the Napalm Girl. SM (00:56:30): Yep. That is Kim- PC (00:56:31): The little girl with her clothes blown off. SM (00:56:33): Kim Phuc. PC (00:56:33): But yeah. Yeah. And there was another one from the (19)60s, and it is just vague in my mind, but I- SM (00:56:46): There is the other one that was the two athletes, the (19)68 Olympics, Tommy Smith and Carlos raising their fists. PC (00:56:55): Yeah. No, that was not one of mine. This was- SM (00:57:00): My Lai? PC (00:57:01): No, it was not that either. It was something from that Chicago convention riot. But I cannot remember who the photographer was and exactly was, but it was this picture of this protestor with this blood coming down over his face after he has been clubbed. And it looks like all the little trickles of blood look like cracks in a window pane. SM (00:57:31): Wow. PC (00:57:31): But that is all I can, that one’s sticks in my mind. SM (00:57:38): There is three quotes I want to mention from period that may define this period. One of the quotes is Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." The second one is the quote from Bobby Kennedy, which I believe was a Henry David Thoreau original quote. And that is, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were, and ask why not." And the third one is from a Peter- SM (00:58:03): ... were and ask why not? And the third one is from a Peter Max poster that was very popular on college campuses in the early (19)70s. And on the wording on that one was, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." It was those three, from different angles, from a more radical, from Malcolm to the idealistic beliefs that many boomers had with Bobby Kennedy, and then the kind of a hippie love and peace from Peter Max. Do those three quotes kind of define the boomer generation when they were young and in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, or... Of course We Shall Overcome is another one, but just your thoughts. PC (00:58:49): Well, I think that they do encapsulate, or almost aphoristically express some of the main elements of the zeitgeist of the (19)60s. Yeah, sure. SM (00:59:08): I have got some questions here now directly related to your experiences. When you came home from Vietnam, how were you treated? PC (00:59:20): Well, when I first got back, of course I remember I landed at two o'clock in the morning with just a couple of other guys at Glenview Naval Air Station near Chicago. Was a rather dreary homecoming. My parents were there to pick me up. The anti-war protest movement was not really underway the summer of 1966, but there were some... No, that barking means something. Just a second. SM (01:00:06): Okay. PC (01:00:08): That means somebody is at the door. SM (01:00:10): Yep. PC (01:00:10): All right, come here, come-come. Sage. Come. Come here. Come here. Get away from the door. Come here. Just a sec. SM (01:00:22): Yep. That is okay. The next question I wanted to ask you is... PC (01:00:33): Oh wait, just one sec. I want to... And the shed's open. All right, go ahead. SM (01:00:42): Yep. Not when you returned, but when a lot of the vets returned back in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, what did most of the troops think about the anti-war people back home? And I am not only talking about the college students now, I am talking about the politicians, the leaders that were along with the students that were anti-war. PC (01:01:06): Oh, well, I think that... By the way, I just want to back up a second, when I was mentioning that there were not a lot of anti-war protests when I came back in (19)66, but I do remember one moment when I was back on leave, and I was in Chicago and my Marine Corps haircut gave me away. And I was standing on a corner with a friend of mine near downtown Chicago, and a carload of kids came by and they yelled something at me about being a pig or something like that, and threw all of these McDonald's scraps at me and a bag of hamburger and french fries scraps. So that did not make me feel too welcome. But, I think that probably most veterans felt... most soldiers, whether it was by the college kid protestors themselves or by the politicians, I think they felt kind of betrayed, if there was a general feeling. SM (01:02:29): Were Vietnam vets discriminated against upon their return? PC (01:02:32): Yeah. SM (01:02:32): And I am going to say this in the area of jobs, service groups and so forth. I know my very first job at Ohio University, there was a Vietnam vet who I got to know quite closely, and he had two kids, and it was 1973. And the university was way ahead of its game, and they had to put Vietnam vets in the area with minorities in terms of possibly being discriminated against. What are your thoughts on America, say, in the first five to 10 years, and how they looked at Vietnam vets upon their return? PC (01:03:11): Oh, I think it was, generally speaking, a very negative viewpoint. And I think that what you just said is correct, is that in effect, no matter what race you were or ethnic group, just being a Vietnam veteran almost automatically made you a member of a minority group that was looked upon with suspicion by the general society. And even contempt. And there was discrimination against... and I mean job discrimination, particularly in the academic world. So, no feeling on that. SM (01:04:00): Was the reason... We are not talking about the anti-war people now, we are talking about the government, people who hire people for jobs. Was it because of incidents like My Lai, the massacre, there was a perception that all Vietnam vets could commit those kinds of crimes? Post-traumatic Stress Disorder, they could crack at any time? What was the reason why they felt this way? Because I have stories of people, Vietnam vets who would go to the VFWs and they were not welcome. And they are welcomed with open arms now. But then they were not. PC (01:04:38): Well, I think that at the VFW where this is where some of the contempt came in, is that they were associated with a losing war. That they were losers in all senses of the term. They were losers as individuals, they were part of a losing army, and mind you, that most of the VFW guys were World War II guys and Korea guys and the World War II veterans, at least could say that they were members of the most triumphant army in American history. And I think that the society in general, there was this viewpoint of the Vietnam veteran as a so-called ticking time bomb, someone who was mentally disturbed as a result of his experiences. And then, I think at a deeper level, because a lot of horrible things did happen in Vietnam, people did not want to be reminded that these veterans were really themselves. They did not want to be reminded that the American young man was capable of doing some pretty terrible things in the conditions of battle stress. SM (01:06:22): But you bring out- PC (01:06:23): I mean, these things have always happened in battle. And I do not think they happened in Vietnam any more frequently than they happened in other conflicts. But they were more naked because you did not have the cloak or the covering of some noble cause ala World War II or freeing the slaves or whatever to obfuscate some of the terrible things that men do in war. SM (01:06:58): What did you take from your experience in Vietnam and bring back to America when you returned? Break it down into two parts, short term until the war ended, and then long term over the past 50 years. What did you bring back with you that has been with you since? PC (01:07:19): Yeah, I would say that the short term and the long term are really one and the same. And I am trying to think of how to phrase it. That given the right circumstances, anyone is capable of almost anything. And that we never know until we are faced with a critical moral choice, under great stress, which choice we will make. SM (01:08:14): How did you become who you are as a person, that person who became a marine, that young man who became a marine. How did you become who you are, number one? And of course, this same person goes on to write one of the greatest books ever, I think on war and on the Vietnam War in particular. Your book will be read three, four, 500 years from now. And no, it will be, because it is a classic. PC (01:08:44): I do not know that anybody is going to be reading 300 years from now. SM (01:08:48): Well, I tell you, it is a book for all time. And how did you become who you are? Because you have gone on and written some other great books and you are a great writer. PC (01:09:02): Well, when you are talking about is that how did I become who I was when I joined the Marines or... SM (01:09:08): Yes. Yeah. PC (01:09:09): Or since then? SM (01:09:10): Yeah, both. Long term, short term, who were you? How did you become who you are, that young man who went into the service and the man that you are today? So, you became an author after many years of serving. PC (01:09:27): Well, if we go way back to the early 1960s is... First of all, I grew up in a pretty much a blue collar family. And in a neighborhood and in a milieu that was basically kind of call it upper blue collar, if you want. My father was a machinist at the time. One of my best friend's father was a tool and die maker, that kind of thing. And almost all of our fathers and uncles and even older cousins had been veterans of World War II. And military service was just expected. It was a thing that you did. And it was also, of course, you had the force of the law at that time. Everybody was subject to the draft. So, that was part of the reason that I ended up joining the Marines was that first of all, they were supposed to be the best. And it was that if you volunteered, you somehow or another would be better than being drafted. That did not turn out to be the case. And then, well, we're going back now to the early (19)60s, the (19)63, (19)64 era. The idealism of that era, and that generation had not yet fragmented in the way that we have been speaking of for the last hour. I think I used to tell people as a joke. I said that a lot of my friends joined the Peace Corps, and I joined the War Corps, but we all felt that we were doing something positive to make the world better. And I thought that, "Well, okay, you serve your country and you take your stand against the Soviet communism and Soviet imperialism." My friends in the Peace Corps, and several of them that I graduated college with went to Africa and South America. One of them, in fact, I remember almost died of some deathly illness in Columbia, in the jungle. My roommate joined AID and ended up in Laos and living in a remote village. And so, I think that a lot of... I joined up because of a lot of patriotism and idealism. What is interesting to me is that when I look back on it, is that there was a unity in the idealism in the early (19)60s that then kind of exploded and fragmented as the decade wore on. SM (01:13:01): Was Kennedy's inaugural speech part of that too? PC (01:13:05): Yeah. Oh God, yeah. SM (01:13:06): Yep. PC (01:13:08): Oh yeah. I remember that. But still, when I see the old news clips from that, that still gives me chills. SM (01:13:16): How did you become that author? PC (01:13:17): Well, I think that all writers become writers because there are two things, is that they have been wounded in some way, and they were outsiders. And the Vietnam War did both to me. And I mean, it inflicted a kind of psychic wound. And that in turn, we were just discussing it about the society's attitudes, and I was as a Vietnam veteran, I was an outsider looking in. SM (01:14:12): When you wrote A Rumor of War, did you expect it to be such a big hit, number one? And what was the reaction of some of your peers, your Vietnam vets, when that book first came out? Because you revealed a lot of... some of the things, the bad side of the war, some of the things that soldiers do that are not so nice. PC (01:14:36): Yeah, right. SM (01:14:38): Yeah. So just I- PC (01:14:40): Go ahead. SM (01:14:42): Just what was the reaction of the vets that you served with and came home just like you did, proud Marines and those who followed? PC (01:14:53): Well, as far as... no, I did. As far as the expectations I had for the book, I can still distinctly remember when I finally finished it in... When did I finish it? 1976, I think it was. Yeah. And I remember telling my first wife, and by this time, I mean it had been accepted for publication by Henry Holt company. And I remember telling her, I says, "Well," I said, "Be nice as I think I got an advance of $6,000 to write the book." And I said, "I think it will earn the advance out and we should have enough money left over." I said, "Maybe to take a nice vacation somewhere." But those were my expectations because the subject was so anathema at that time that I just could not... I was stunned that anybody was going to publish it and then I could not imagine that anybody would read it in great numbers. As far as the reaction from federal veterans, it has been almost uniformly positive. And for just one simple [inaudible], I told the truth and the truth of the experience. And even if it revealed a lot of ugly behavior and presented myself among others and them in unheroic light, they did not mind that. They have not minded that at all. They appreciate it. Anybody is going to appreciate the truth when it is presented to them, and we know it is there. SM (01:16:52): What are your thoughts on Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, and even Gerald Ford at the end when the pardon came of Nixon? Just your thoughts on those three as the war ended, because obviously LBJ ran the war. Nixon said he was going to end the war, and he technically did, even though half the people in the names on the wall died after he became president. And then President Ford came in on unusual circumstances. Just your thoughts on those three men. PC (01:17:26): Well, my thoughts now are on this, as I now see Lyndon Johnson as a truly tragic figure. I think he was a man who had really... He wanted to do great things for the American people. And he did. From the Voting Rights Act, Civil Rights Act, Great Society and anti-poverty programs and so forth. But he was caught by the circumstances of the Cold War that combined with his own insecurities about himself as this Texas farm boy surrounded by the brilliant minds of the Ivy League. And oh, I guess what he viewed as a hostile media and so forth, combined with his own insecurities to lead him to commit American troops to a war that he knew and that some of his top advisors like Russell Long told him was not going to be winnable. Nixon, I see more as a, I cannot help it, it is cliched now, but as a brilliant, but I think fundamentally evil man. And I think his [inaudible] was Henry Kissinger. I mean, when you talk about lies and secret wars and all of those machinations that Kissinger was pulling off, I mean, even in (19)68, when he was taking part in the peace talks in Paris. But now evidence, I think I saw it recently in the one book about Nixon, is strong evidence that he was deliberately undermining the peace talks he was taking part in so he could advance Nixon as a presidential candidate and then attain a position of power in the Nixon administration. And I think both of them were very callous about the lives that they were risking, both Vietnamese and American. And Ford... I grew up in the Middle West. Ford is a very typical old time Midwestern Republican, a fundamentally decent guy. He had these two guys, Lyndon Johnson and Nixon, both extremely, I think, very talented, but very complicated and very flawed men. And yet Ford was basically, had very few moving parts, but it does not mean he was simple minded or something, or kind of a dope. I think he was a very smart man, but his personality was not complicated. I think he had a clarity of vision that the others did not. But it was combined, as I say, with this fundamentally kind of small-town Midwestern Republicanism. SM (01:21:45): What were the veterans' that you knew, your peers' thoughts on Robert McNamara, William Westmoreland and Abrams? PC (01:22:00): I never heard any opinions about Abrams, mainly because I think that by the time he took over, I was well out of the service. Westmoreland, I think to most veterans... I mean, I kind of thought of him as a bit of a staff type general, the spit shine shoes, spiffy looking Eagle Scout general, up at the front lines, chesty puller kind of general. In fact, you just saw him as kind of a remote person. I do not know but I do not seem to recall anybody getting in any discussions with any other veterans about him. I do recall getting in discussions about McNamara, and it was just almost universal loathing among the people I have talked to. SM (01:23:13): What was your thought when he wrote the book In Retrospect in 1995, and then he wrote another one where he admits to the mistakes that he made? And I remember I asked, that was the very one of the questions I asked in my very first interview with Senator McCarthy, because around that time, about a year later when I interviewed him, the book had just come out. And Senator McCarthy said it was, "all trash, a little late," and he was furious. But some people say, "Well, geez, at least he finally admitted that he was wrong." And that that is something to think about too. So just what was your thoughts on the book In Retrospect and his follow up book? PC (01:24:01): I am ignoring McCarthy's temp on that one. I mean, I would not think of it as trash, but it was definitely way too little, too late. And my other feeling is, so what? So he admits his mistakes, but the fact of the matter is that he couched these admissions in such a way as to almost make it sound as though he were... that his great mistake was not seeing things as he should have before we committed to Vietnam. And in fact, he did. I mean, he knew, and again, there's ample evidence. I cannot cite a chapter and verse at the moment. In the Lyndon Johnson tapes and in some other... even in McNamara's own writings, that he knew ahead of time that this war was not winnable. And he never explained to me in either book, and I could barely read the second one. I was so infuriated. Never explained to me clearly, as to why he went ahead with it anyway. And became the chief architect of the war. SM (01:25:41): How do you feel, I got a couple names here, and how do you feel, and some of your vets feel about the following people at the time, and maybe your reflections today? Muhammad Ali. PC (01:25:54): Oh, well, I loved him. I first saw him fighting, that Liston fight in (19)65, and then... No, I just thought he was really cool. SM (01:26:06): Were vets upset with him when he went against the war, and he would not serve because he was a conscientious objector? PC (01:26:14): No, I believed in that then, and I still believe in it. I mean, I think he was an authentic, conscientious objector, and he paid the price. This was not a case of where he objected to the war and he got rewarded for it in some way. I mean, he paid the price for his defiance of the norms of the day. And I saw his point of view. If I had been a black guy back then, I would have certainly questioned about, "Why am I going over here to fight these guys?" As he said, "No Viet Cong ever called me nigger." SM (01:27:03): Right. PC (01:27:03): And- PC (01:27:03): As he said, no Viet Cong ever called me nigger. SM (01:27:03): Right. PC (01:27:03): And there was a lot of truth in that. SM (01:27:07): How about Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden? PC (01:27:11): Well, now this is going to sound contradictory, but no. My feelings toward them are negative, especially Jane Fonda. I think that Muhammad Ali, first of all, because of his particular version of the Islamic faith, and I think he actually thought things through. He thought about, "Okay, can I in conscience take part in this war and go into the army, both as a black man and as a member of the..." What was that called? It was not exactly called Islam. It was some... SM (01:28:01): Black Muslims? PC (01:28:03): Black Muslim. Yeah. It was a Black Muslim [inaudible]. And I think he thought things through and realized the price he would pay, and he paid it. And I admire him for that. I think Jane Fonda was reacting without any kind of thought to the things she did. She was reacting like a typical, I think, celebrity movie star. Sometimes a lot of them just strike me as huge vacuums that have to suck in all of this energy of attention and publicity. That is how I saw her. SM (01:28:51): How about Tom? When you look at Tom Hayden and Rennie Davis, though, they were called the intellectual leaders of the left, and they were big anti-war. Just your thoughts on them? PC (01:29:04): Well, they are kinder than they are toward Jane Fonda. But I fault them for, and I think an unjustifiably false reading of the American public. They basically thought that America was right for some kind of total revolution. All American society was going to be turned upside down violently or non-violently. And I think that that was an unjustifiable reading the mood of the American public and the kind of reading that you get from a person who is an ideologue with blinders on. Then I think it led them into a lot of actions and a lot of rhetoric that I just simply do not agree with. SM (01:30:07): How about the three politicians that many look upon as the big-name anti-war leaders: Eugene McCarthy, George McGovern, and Bobby Kennedy? PC (01:30:19): Yeah, just a sec. SM (01:30:19): Okay. PC (01:30:27): I worked for, in a very small way, but it is kind of like a precinct canvasser for Bobby Kennedy, and after he was assassinated for Gene McCarthy. So obviously I admired both of them. Stuff has come out about both of them since then that makes you see that there were some aspects to their characters, especially Bobby Kennedy, were not so admirable, and that Gene McCarthy sometimes comes off as an almost an arrogant intellectual who was, I do not know, a little too Olympian in some of his attitudes. But generally speaking, I admired, and still do, both of them. Then you mentioned somebody else. SM (01:31:28): George McGovern. PC (01:31:29): Same thing. I have worked for McGovern's campaign. I have thought of him and still do, I have met him once or twice briefly, as a principled man who was willing to take a lot of flak for the... SM (01:31:54): Hold on one second. PC (01:31:55): As I said, he took political risks for his [inaudible] and I admire him for that. SM (01:32:14): How about Vietnam Veterans Against the War? PC (01:32:17): Well, I joined them, so I cannot say anything, but that I thought that they had the right idea. I remember I was opposed to the war. I was against the war. I talked to some anti-war movement people, and I did not really like them. And I felt like the only people who had any moral authority to really protest the war were veterans. And so, when Kerry formed the VVVA, I joined them. SM (01:32:59): What do you think about the Black Panthers and the Weatherman's groups? PC (01:33:04): Oh, well, the Weatherman is just, they are contemptible. Again, you want to talk about misreading the American public, they were really guilty of that. They were basically nihilists. They were acting out some kind of psychodrama with violence, and certainly were so insular and so hermetically sealed in their own little revolutionary bubble. And again, they thought that the American public was ready for this revolution, and they were going to lead it. It was just a delusion of grandiose proportions. Same thing with the Black Panthers. Maybe some of their anger can be explained, but I do not think a lot of the things they did, the shootouts, the murders and all of that, there's no way to justify that. SM (01:34:18): I know the Black Panthers had the food programs that were very popular and very good, but they are set- PC (01:34:25): South American dictators do the same thing. It is always this bullshit that comes out when people who have violent political agendas, or Hamas over there in the Gaza Strip. They say, "Oh, well, they hand out water and food, and they have social services." So what? They are basically criminals. SM (01:34:53): There is seven big names that come out of that. Of course, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, and Angela Davis. I know that Dave Hilliard too. So these are all names of the Black Panthers that represented different things. They were a lot different in their own way. Do you bottle them up all together? PC (01:35:19): Yeah, I bottle them all up together. SM (01:35:21): What did you think of Students for a Democratic Society? They died when the Weatherman became a reality. PC (01:35:33): Well, the Weatherman, basically, Weatherman action took them over. I do not know what I thought of them. I had a brother-in-law, a high school classmate that was a member of SDS. I do remember getting into some vigorous arguments with him, obviously. For example, maybe this will tell you what I thought of them, is that he was trying to recruit me. Because they figured that a veteran would add some credibility to their ideas. And I remember him showing me a cover from The Nation magazine, and it had an oil derrick on the cover. The article that he was citing, its thesis was that the United States was fighting in Vietnam to gain control of the oil fields offshore of Vietnam. I think they are called the Spratly Islands or something like that. I remember he says, "That is what that is you were fighting for." And I remember looking at him and I said, "You know, Jack?" I said, "I wish [inaudible] for that." He says, "What do you mean?" I said, "Because then I could say, "Okay, I fought for an oil field.'" I said, "Right now I do not feel like I fought for anything." And they had this traditional, in other words, Marxist or neo-Marxist outlook about the world that I think was essentially incorrect. That we were fighting in Vietnam to gain control of these natural resources. SM (01:37:41): What did you think of Dr. King's speech against the Vietnam War? Because that was, even in the civil rights community, he was heavily criticized for getting outside his territory. What was your thought on him giving that speech? PC (01:37:58): I do not remember that I had a thought. SM (01:38:01): Okay. I was wondering if any of the veterans you knew reacted to that. PC (01:38:04): No. SM (01:38:06): No? PC (01:38:06): I did not have a lot to do with veterans after I got out of the service. There were not that many around, tell the truth, or the ones that were did not reveal that they were. But no, I do not remember that I had a thought about that one way or the other at the time. Again, I did not really know a lot of veterans, especially immediately after I got back. SM (01:38:33): You covered Vietnam as a reporter. I think you witnessed there. What did you think when the helicopters took off from the embassy in Saigon when the war was over? What were you thinking having served and knowing that over 58,000 Americans died and thousands were injured, both physically and psychologically? And then of course we got to also say 3 million Vietnamese died in that war. When those helicopters were taking off, what kind of feelings were going through your mind? PC (01:39:04): Well, I felt two things, because I wrote about them in the paper. I felt a mixture of bitterness and relief. Deep bitterness that these... I had 16 of my buddies were killed in action over there. SM (01:39:23): Oh geez. PC (01:39:26): A deep bitterness that they truly had died for no reason and a relief that it was finally over. SM (01:39:40): Jan Scruggs, of course, you probably read this book, To Heal a Nation. Did the Vietnam Memorial heal the nation? The Wall? I know it's done a lot with the vets and their families, but you cannot heal even every vet, because they have their issues. But his book centers on the fact that that was very important in healing in the nation. Do you think it has? PC (01:40:06): Well, I got to tell you in all candor, I do not believe in this healing. All it is, it's what I call the cant of this therapeutic culture. There are wounds that just remain tender forever, and they probably should. And no, I do not think that the Wall helped. It might have helped, like you say, Vietnam veterans and their families. Yes. I do not know that it helped heal them. It was a place where you could go and experience a certain kind of emotional catharsis, I guess. But it certainly, I do not think it did anything for the divisions in the nation, as going back to what we talked about quite some time ago now, is the 2004 election. Look at this. You had Vietnam veterans as members of this swift boat campaign turning on another highly decorated Vietnam veteran in the most vicious way imaginable. So, I did not see that there was any healing as far as the nation went. SM (01:41:39): Who do you blame for losing the war? PC (01:41:45): Well, nobody, because it was not winnable. SM (01:41:51): Okay. PC (01:41:51): All right. Let us put it this way. I blame the persistence and the discipline of the North Vietnamese army. SM (01:42:00): In the book since the Rumor of War, what have been the messages you have tried to deliver in those books? PC (01:42:14): Well, did you want to include A Rumor of War? SM (01:42:20): Yep. Include that one, but certainly your number two book and then some of your novels. PC (01:42:27): Well, as far as A Rumor of War went, I think I mentioned this in the afterward to one of the editions, is one of the purposes I had in writing, it was to create, by making an appeal to the physical senses, the virtual tour of duty for anybody who read the book. In other words, to put a reader into the Vietnam that the ordinary fighting man experienced, as much as was possible on the printed page. And when the reader finished the book, I wanted that reader to think or say to himself, "Now what do I think? Now what are my opinions and attitudes about Vietnam?" If I had a conscious motive it was that. In other words, as far as my other motives, they were probably unconscious. It was almost like an irresistible compulsion to set this experience down on paper. Many of the other books have been, particularly the novels, have been about the idea I expressed a little earlier here. Was that they have been stories about people in extreme circumstances or alien circumstances, where none of the usual moral guideposts of life exist. Facing moral choices and the choices they make become revelatory of what their true natures are. I have tried to get that across in a lot of novels, particularly in Acts of Faith and Horn of Africa, two books that interestingly enough take place in almost the same part of the world. SM (01:45:20): I would like to ask a question about the boomer veterans. 3 million served in Vietnam, and I know in some of the materials that I have read that probably about maybe 450 to 500,000 actually fought on the front lines. But in talking to vets who did not fight in the front lines, their lies were in danger the whole time they were there. So even though the 2.5 million did not walk through the jungles, there was danger there. How do they differ? Again, when we define a generation, we're talking 3 million of a 73 million population. How do they differ from the other boomers? And Vietnam vets we know were not welcomed home upon their return, but now we see an era in which Vietnam veterans are, it is really in to be a Vietnam veteran. And that there is an issue of people lying that they were veterans and making money off it by speaking, by talking about it. And I remember the ultimate was Dr. Joe Ellis, the professor at Harvard who has won of Pulitzer Prize, yet he was teaching his students that he fought in Vietnam. PC (01:46:45): He was 173rd Airborne. SM (01:46:47): And that is amazing for a guy that already had won a Pulitzer Prize. So, what is he trying to do? Just your thoughts on how the Vietnam veterans may differ from the rest of the boomers and really how important they are in the boomer generation and for America. I think they are very important. I would worked with them for many years. Just your thoughts. PC (01:47:14): Well, when anybody is experienced, and this would really apply to, I think you said, half a million were actually in action. You are forever set apart from your peers and contemporaries. I do not know. You know things that those who have not been there do not know, and that very knowledge cuts you apart. And I have touched on some of that knowledge, about the knowing that what you say are, what you believe in, what you will do under a certain set of circumstances is all rubbish until you are actually confronted with that moment when you have to make the choice. And to say nothing of the fact that these guys were all between 19 and 22, 23 years old, and they confronted death on a daily basis. Suddenly a lot of things that seem important to people who have not confronted death, it just pale to nothing. So, you are set apart for those and other reasons. And I think I agree with you that I think they are quite important. In our political leadership, you can take a look at how many Vietnam veterans have risen political prominence. John Kerry, Jim Webb, who is also a very fine writer as well. He is a real renaissance man, Webb. And Chuck Hagel. And there is I think 13 or 14 other members of the state Senate, of the US Senate and the US House of Representatives who were Vietnam veterans, and many of them combat veterans of Vietnam. The chairman or the CEO and founder of FedEx, I want to talk about business, is a Vietnam veteran. There's people like me who have become well known writers and artists as well. And probably if you did some research you would find Vietnam veterans in prominent or leadership positions in every single field life. SM (01:50:13): I agree. Kent State and Jackson State, I would like your thoughts on that. You have to link both of them, because you wrote a really great book. I read it. 13 Seconds. They have always tried to make sure when they had the remembrance events at Kent State that Jackson State is always remembered as well. Would you go so far as to say that the deaths on that campus, those four students, and of course the students at Jackson State, are also combat veterans of the Vietnam War, but on the home front? PC (01:50:48): No, I would not go so far as to say that. No. SM (01:50:53): What is your thoughts on Kent State and Jackson State? What does that mean to you? PC (01:50:58): Well, it was along with the assassination of President Kennedy, probably. Well, I would say the assassination of President Kennedy, the Tet Offensive and the Kent State Massacre were probably the three most prominent events of that era. Now that was the moment, Kent State, I think, when a lot of people that were writing about the boomer generation realized that when you are in the revolutionary forefront, you are not just risking a whack in the head, you are risking your very life. That this is a deadly business. And I think the American public realized. No, I should not say that, because I know the reaction was a reaction of Kent State from the Great American mainstream that was actually quite vicious. A lot of people in America realized that the atmosphere in the country had become so toxic that those National Guardsmen pulled the triggers on these college kids who were really no threat to them whatsoever. You could say that the mood or the atmosphere in the country had its fingers on those triggers as well as the actual men who pulled them. SM (01:52:40): Okay. I have a couple names here. We are getting close to the end of the interview. A couple names that I would like you to respond to. You have already responded to some of the presidents. These do not have to be long responses, but just gut level reactions. Your thoughts on Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. PC (01:53:04): Clowns. SM (01:53:06): Timothy Leary. PC (01:53:08): Another one, but a dangerous clown. SM (01:53:11): How about Spiro Agnew? PC (01:53:19): I would just call him bombastic. I am trying to think of a word to describe him. He was bombastic and a demagogue. Bombastic demagogue. SM (01:53:38): John Kennedy. PC (01:53:47): He still moves me. I know everything, all of his flaws, and he had many. Personal flaws as well as political misconceptions. But there was still something about him that incarnated, I thought, a lot of great things in the American character, the American spirit. SM (01:54:17): How about Daniel Ellsberg? PC (01:54:17): I still miss him. SM (01:54:18): Right. How about Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers? PC (01:54:25): Well, I know Dan a little bit. I have met him. I am torn about that. SM (01:54:45): He is a fellow Marine, too. PC (01:54:46): Yeah, I know. SM (01:54:46): We can go on. PC (01:54:51): Torn about it, because you can take that idea of disclosing big secrets too far and endanger people. But I would say that given, looking at him in hindsight, I think he did the right thing. SM (01:55:10): How about Dr. Benjamin Spock and William Sloane Coffin? PC (01:55:17): No particular opinion of either one. SM (01:55:20): How about Daniel and Philip Berrigan? They threw blood on- PC (01:55:34): I cannot say that... No, I do not really have an opinion or a feeling about either one of them. SM (01:55:42): All right. Dwight Eisenhower? PC (01:55:53): A great general, a great man, but a kind of a boring president. SM (01:56:00): How about Barry Goldwater? SM (01:56:01): How about Barry Goldwater? PC (01:56:15): I see Goldwater as a, living right here in his state, and I still see... I am thinking out loud right now, just a lot of echoes of Goldwaterism... He was really basically, kind of almost a man of the American frontier, who had lived into an era when those frontier values were ceasing to make much sense. SM (01:56:47): Woodward and Bernstein. PC (01:56:50): Oh yeah. No, I think they both did a great thing. SM (01:56:56): What are your thoughts- PC (01:56:57): And I really admire them as journalists because both of them were not, they were not big stars in the paper, and I do not even think they quite knew what they had for quite a while. But they were persistent, and they kept after the story, and I think that they did a great service to the country and to journalism. SM (01:57:26): How about George Wallace? PC (01:57:29): A demagogue. SM (01:57:31): How about William Buckley? PC (01:57:43): I think he was a guy that was a brilliant, he definitely was a brilliant articulator of the classic conservative position, but at quite a few points in his life was a bit overly impressed with himself. SM (01:58:06): How about Watergate? Your thoughts on that? PC (01:58:11): Well, I go back to what I said. I said I think Nixon was an evil man, period. I think, when it came to politics, he was totally, totally amoral. And that Watergate scandal was a direct result of his amorality. SM (01:58:33): How about Woodstock and the Summer of Love? PC (01:58:36): Well, just a lot of frothy bullshit. SM (01:58:41): The year 1968. PC (01:58:45): One of the most dramatic years in our history, really a chronological dividing line. Think of everything that happened then, King assassinated, Kennedy assassinated, the riots after King's assassination, the Tet Offensive, the Chicago Convention riots. That was the year, going back almost to one of your first questions, that I felt that the country was going to blow itself apart. SM (01:59:21): And LBJ withdrew from... PC (01:59:22): Yeah, LBJ withdrew from running for another term. SM (01:59:25): The term counterculture. PC (01:59:36): What do I think of it? SM (01:59:36): Yeah, what do you think of the counterculture? PC (01:59:37): Oh, oh, what do I think of the term? Or what do I think of- SM (01:59:39): Just, yeah, the counterculture, not the term, just the... PC (01:59:42): Again, I think that that was, that is the least attractive facet or aspect of this boomer generation that you are writing of. It was basically a... It was self-gratification and self-indulgence masquerading as a social revolution. SM (02:00:08): How about the hippies and the yippies? PC (02:00:10): The same thing. They were the counterculture. SM (02:00:14): How about the Chicago 8? PC (02:00:21): Oh, I will go back to what I was saying about Tom Hayden and all that. They were basically ideologues, and like all ideologues, I do not think they lived in the real world. SM (02:00:38): And Tet. PC (02:00:41): Well, Tet was... That was an interesting event, probably a rather euphemistic way to put it. SM (02:00:50): That was (19)68 too. PC (02:00:52): Yeah, yeah. What happened with Tet is, it is often said nowadays, and going back 10, 15 years in some of the postmortems about Vietnam, that we had actually had the war won at that point, that we had dealt such severe blows to the Viet Cong that they had never even recovered from it. And that was true insofar as it went. But what a lot of people ignore was that this offensive took place at a time when the political and military leadership of America were telling Americans about all of the wonderful progress we were making in Vietnam. And that all of a sudden, this enemy that was supposed to have been on the ropes, comes back and stages these massive attacks throughout the country, even to the point of invading the American Embassy in Saigon. And I think that is when the American people said that somebody has not been telling us the truth. That is why that when they say that that was a psychological victory, they are correct. Where they're incorrect, is assuming that it was a psychological victory because the media made it so. What really made it so were the optimistic statements and predictions that preceded it. SM (02:02:37): Just a couple more. John Dean, thoughts on John Dean. PC (02:02:48): Well, what do I think of him? My opinion of his character, who- SM (02:02:52): Yeah, he is the guy that- PC (02:02:52): I think he was the guy that saw the ship was sinking and decided to bail. SM (02:03:06): Very good. Yeah. The final names here are the women leaders, the Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug. Shirley Chisholm's in there. A lot of the, Phyllis Schlafly, who was a conservative, the women leaders of that period. PC (02:03:23): Oh. So, what about them, I mean? SM (02:03:24): Yeah, just your thoughts, if you have any thoughts on them. Many of them got involved in the anti-war movement too. PC (02:03:31): Yeah, yeah. Well, it was because, once again, as I said, it was the war and then the anti-war movement it had spun. I still think it was the generator behind a lot of the social and cultural upheavals of that period, which would include the feminist movement. SM (02:03:46): The- PC (02:04:07): Well, I do not know. By the way, I have met Betty Friedan, and I would suspect... I mean, I never met Gloria Steinem. I never met Shirley Chisholm or Phyllis Schlafly, on the conservative side. But I have a feeling that if I did, that I would end up liking Betty Friedan the most. I liked her. I thought she was a very pragmatic kind of feminist, even though she is associated by analogy. SM (02:04:44): We often say that... In the boomer generation, we talk about the (19)60s and the (19)70s as boomers have aged, but we do not talk a lot about the (19)50s. And what is amazing is that the boomer generation is often defined as a rebellious one. But that is amazing and ironic when you look at the (19)50s that were kind of laid back, conservative. Nobody really spoke up that much. I reflect upon the (19)50s by watching the television shows, whether it be Mickey Mouse Club, or the Mouseketeers, Howdy Doody. PC (02:05:19): Yeah, seriously. SM (02:05:20): Howdy Doody, when they were very young, Hopalong Cassidy, all the westerns on television through the (19)50s, and certainly the movies. And I know that many of the boomers, when they were very young, the McCarthy hearings were going on. If they could have heard that voice on television, may not understand it all, telling people their communists and, of course, going through the threat of nuclear war and all the things, but parents giving as much as they can to their kids. And all of a sudden, the first-stage boomers go into seventh grade around 1960 when President Kennedy's going in, and everything kind of changes. Is there something about the 1950s that maybe really has not caught on here, or was that it really had an influence on boomers when they were young? And I want to add one other thing here. The beats were also part of the (19)50s, and of course, Kerouac and Ginsburg and those people, and their whole very being was challenging authority and the status quo. So, your thoughts on what was it in the (19)50s that may have influenced these young people subconsciously before they even started getting into junior high school? PC (02:06:39): Well, I think that one thing is that... I think we are talking about a number of levels of human psychology, and particularly mass psychology. One, that I would just say, was boredom. No. Sometimes boredom is a great motivator. I think that a lot of these people that grew up in the (19)50s were just kind of bored. They wanted action. They wanted excitement. They wanted things to happen. So I think that was a factor. I think the other one was privilege. I had mentioned this earlier. This was the first generation in America, its Black component excepted, that had never really known hardship and hard times, so it was comfortable. It had the luxury to think about things other than getting a job, surviving, rising just a little bit in society, hopefully from the lower class over to the middle class, and that kind of thing. And then another would be that there is a certain hypocrisy that they saw in their parents' generation that was, I think, undeniably there, particularly the racism that existed. At that time in the (19)50s, it was really quite virile. I mean, I remember it really, very clearly. One thing I remember is 1962, I was driving with two of my college buddies down to the big migration in Fort Lauderdale. We got lost. There were no interstate highways to follow at that time, and there's all these old US highways and state highways and stuff. Anyway, we got lost in the middle of Georgia somewhere at night, and we stopped at a gas station to get gas and ask directions. And I remember that I was really thirsty, and I went around to the side of the building, and I was just drinking at a water fountain. And while I was bent over the water fountain, I felt this tap on my shoulder, and it was the gas station attendant, who was a pretty beefy guy, big guy, and he had a type of [inaudible]. I think it was a blunt... It was probably an open-ended wrench, but it might have been a ratchet, I do not remember. Anyway, a large metal tool, and tapping me on the shoulder. And he says, "You do not look like no nigger to me, boy." And he pointed up to the sign, says, "Colored only," or is it blue? This is scary stuff. So, I think that there was a perception of a certain hypocrisy. And I think, too, is that when they talk about... Okay, we have the boomer generation and the greatest generation, which were the parents of the boomer generation, is that... Well, the greatest generation, I think too, it was probably a bit over materialistic, even though its materialism, in a lot of ways, contributed to the comfort and the security with which the boomers were brought up in. But I think that they may have resented that. They may have seen that their parents were too concerned with getting ahead, making a living, the old 1950s organization-man idea, and rebelled against that as well. SM (02:11:16): When the best history books are written, they are usually about 50 years after an event. Some of the best World War II books have been written in the last 5 to 10 years, and that is 50 years after World War II ended in (19)45. When the best history books are written about the boomer generation, 50 years, or even after boomers have passed, what do you think they will be saying about the generation? And again, the people that will be writing these books will be the generation Xers, of which is the generation that followed, or even most likely, millennials and future generations. So, they would not have even been alive during the time the boomers were alive. PC (02:12:04): Well, I could not project that far ahead. I would suspect that this, whatever you want to call them, generation X or generation Y, anyway, people might... I have two sons. They are 38 and 36, so I guess they are generation X. I do not know. SM (02:12:24): Yep, they are generation X. PC (02:12:36): And my impression is that if any of them ever write the history of the boomers, it probably will not be too positive a portrait. I think they may see the boomers as just a bit too self-involved, too self-centered, kind of like that newspaper reporter that told me like, "What the hell is going on here? People my age are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, and you guys keep arguing about this goddamn Vietnam War that took place 35 years ago." They may not be as impressed with the boomers as the boomers quite often are of themselves. SM (02:13:17): Mr. Caputo- PC (02:13:18): But I do not know. I cannot think about it. But then going further into the future than that is impossible for me. SM (02:13:25): Yeah. One of the interesting things is for some reason, millennials, which is people born after, probably in the mid-1980s in fact, they seem to get along fine with the boomer generation. There is really strong links because their parents are boomers, and now 85 percent of all the parents of college students are generation Xers. So, it is interesting, the links they have got. In the mid-(19)90s we did programs on the generation X and boomers, and boy, there was friction between these two generations. There is no question. And the friction was based on this, and it was very clear cut that there were two things that generation Xers thought about boomers. Number one is, "I am tired of hearing about what it was like when you were young. I am sick of it. You're too nostalgic." And the other reaction was, "Geez, I wish I lived during that era because there is no issues today for me like there was for you." So those are kind of some interesting comments. And we did two programs where we had panels on that. Those came out clear. The last question I have here is what do you hope your lasting legacy is going to be? PC (02:14:50): Oh, I think that if somebody who wrote some pretty good hardcover books that they will, it is to be hoped, be read a hundred years from now. SM (02:15:07): Well, I can guarantee you, Rumor of War will be read 300 years from now. No, I am a history major, political science major as an undergrad, and I have about 20, 25 books that I have read in my life, and I am a reader. Your book is there. Your book is just- PC (02:15:27): Oh. Well, I mean, I hope so. I think of, I am trying to remember it. Let me see if I can quote it exactly, probably will not be able to, but it's from Marcus Aurelius's Meditations. And it's a whole passage he has on the brevity of life. And he says something like, he says, "Brief, too, is the longest posthumous fame, and even this is carried on by poor mortals, who must themselves die and be forgotten." SM (02:16:09): Wow. PC (02:16:12): It is always good to... Yeah. I hope that my book will be read 100 or 300 years from now. A thousand years from now, it may not be. SM (02:16:28): Well, I hope it is still, will always being book form. I am worried about people reading on computers. But anyways, I do recommend that you do read Fortunate Son while you are out in Arizona. Pick it up in the library or buy it. I know they have copies of in the bookstore. I think Lewis Puller's book is excellent. He was one of the inspirations for me getting started in my project here because we took students down to Washington to meet him at the Wall two days before the Women's Memorial was dedicated. He spent over two and a half hours with seven of our students at a bench across the way there. And then in the spring, of course, we all know he committed suicide. It was very sad. And I have my own story about it. It is going to be in the opening of this book, things I am going to say about that, but I encourage you to read it. It is a great book. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you expected me to ask? PC (02:17:32): Gosh, no. SM (02:17:33): No. I guess I have covered it all then. I will turn my tape player off. Thank you very much. One thing I want to mention is that I went through 50 interviews before I realized I had to get waivers for all of my speakers. They all said, "You can use my tape," and once they get the transcript and edit it and stuff. And so, what I am doing now, I am having to send out waivers to the first 50 people I interviewed, and 7 of them had died, so I got to go to the family estates. So, I just wanted to let you know, sometime in the next couple of weeks I will be sending, through the email, a copy of the waiver, then you can make a copy of it, print it, and then send it back to me on the computer. PC (02:18:17): Okay. And I will try not to die between then. SM (02:18:19): Oh yeah, do not die. But Senator Gaylord Nelson was one of my earlier interviews. PC (02:18:24): Confuse your... SM (02:18:25): Yeah. Well, I just found out one of my interviews... just died recently, and it was Forrest Church from All Souls... the son of Frank Church. And then Jack Smith, I interviewed, and he passed away, and of course, Senator McCarthy, and so there's been a few. But I want to thank you very much for taking this lengthy time with me. It's an honor to talk to you. And one thing I do miss, and that is taking pictures of you because the way this book is going to be broke down, it's going to be broken down into seven different sections, and you will be in the veterans’ section plus the authors section. And I usually take pictures of all the individuals, 90 percent of the people I have been in person. So somehow, I need to get some updated pictures of you to put at the top, but I will be emailing you on that. PC (02:19:18): Okay. Yeah, I have got a friend of mine here who is a pretty good photographer. He could just get a shot at me. SM (02:19:23): Yeah. I do not know if you are ever in the Philadelphia area in the spring, and I do not know if you are [inaudible] or speak in that area. I got two people that I have already interviewed but are going to be in Philadelphia, Washington, or New York in the spring. And I am just going to take their pictures, anyway. PC (02:19:37): No, I do not plan to be. SM (02:19:40): Right. All right. Well, you have a great day. Thank you. PC (02:19:44): Okay. All right. It was good talking to you. I guess we certainly covered a lot of ground here. SM (02:19:52): And I will keep you updated on how the project is going. I got a lot of transcribing to do, and once I get it transcribed, you get a copy of that as well. And I will get the waiver to you first, and we will go from there. PC (02:20:07): All right, okay. SM (02:20:08): Well, thank you very much and happy holidays. PC (02:20:11): All right. Happy holidays to you, and you are welcome. SM (02:20:13): Yep. And talk to you... 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip Caputo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Caputo, Philip ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Journalists; Authors; Marines; Caputo, Philip--Interviews Description An account of the resource Philip Caputo is a Chicago born journalist and novelist. Caputo attended Loyola and Purdue Universities and served in the U.S Marine Corps for three years. He has written 16 books throughout his life and was nominated for the National Book Award for <em>Horn of Africa</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-12-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.31a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.31b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 140:17