16 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/71ae87a5cd1744c9575d68e564205975.jpeg 23b9b3b0526d5eca637485b644c9ecd3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f7dec43aa1994e5a82686ebddf39b68.mp3 a5b219f8ae3e8b0f1e3c31a9714833bb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Heather DeHaan and Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Hatala Biographical Text Dr. Peter Hatala was born in Johnson City, NY and he is a first-generation Ukrainian American. His father was an immigrant from Ulychne, Ukraine. Dr. Hatala is a retired orthodontist. He is married and resides in Vestal. He has six children and two grandchildren. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 81:41 minutes Date of Interview 2016-06-23 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Hatala, Peter. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Church; Ukrainian folk dancing; Broome County (N.Y.) Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Dr. Peter Hatala Interviewed by: Heather DeHaan and Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 23 June 2016 Interview Setting: St. John’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Heather DeHaan: So, first I want to thank you Dr. Hatala for agreeing to be interviewed. We are on Thursday of the 23rd of June 2016, and we are in the basement of St. John’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Johnson City– Peter Hatala: In the boardroom– HD: In the boardroom. PH: Right. HD: In the boardroom where we also have at our disposal a number of collections of family histories for members of the congregation um that were gathered at the initiative of doctor Hatala. So, could you begin by giving us your full name? PH: Uh, my name is Dr. Peter Hatala. I was uh born in Johnson City in New York on the North side, August 16th 1932, and uh I am a uh Johnson City Graduate, but uh before that um of course my roots have been my father Nicolas Hatala was from Ulychne in Austria-Hungary and uh he was born in 1882 and passed away I think in (19)73. HD: So, 1882 to 1973. PH: Right. HD: Okay, so um, first of all when did your father come to North America? PH: He came in uh 1910. I have his Ellis Island uh certificate, I do not have it with me, and my mother, I do not know when she came in, I was thinking around 1912 with her uncle or with her brother actually. There is only three in the family. So, she came with one of the brothers and actually here is the family trees signed by … that on the website and of my mother, right there. HD: Ok, so your mother was her name– PH: Kankavich? HD: So, we have it, Maria. PH: Yes. HD: Okay. So, Maria came with her older brother, her younger brother and a parent? PH: Josephine, yeah, her mother was Josephine. HD: Okay. PH: Came with an older brother and, they came through Ellis Island also but I could not get her Ellis Island certificate and a lot of it was the wording of the name or how it was spelled. I had a hard time getting my dad’s until I saw his name spelled in Polish with a J on the end, and his name was Nicolas. So, I never put a J on the end. But it was that is how I got his. So, I am going to try to get my mum’s too. I belonged to Ellis Island before, long time back and I am going to join again because I want to go there. My daughter lives in Long Island. And uh so I can hope over to Ellis Island very quickly when we go to visit them you know. I was going to do it this time over the July 4th weekend but it was not such a good time because it was going to be so busy and probably the safety part of it she said is not that good either you know, so– HD: Yeah, I want to go back to thinking about when your parents came through Ellis Island, do you know why they came, and did they come directly to Johnson City? PH: No, actually the reason why they came was just to have a better life from what they had and the fact at that time, this was in the early 1900s, you know, the lifestyle there was a lot different than it is today. So, I am sure they had hard times and they wanted to better their lives and everything that is why they came over here. My dad first came through Ellis Island and was in the Scranton, Olyphant area in Pennsylvania, and I did have an uncle in Olyphant but since then he has passed away so I have not really followed that that lineage there. But he worked in the coal mine for a while, did not like that so he heard about uh “which way EJ [Endicott-Johnson Shoe Company]” and decided to come to Johnson city and actually that was part of it but he had a farm outside of Windsor for a while and then left that and was in an apartment in Binghamton and then that is when he started working for EJ’s. HD: Okay, so he sold the farm then, in order to work at the factory? PH: I would think that he did but you know it was like 258 acres that they had but the funny part about it is, you know, all the EJ workers were building their own homes in Georgia for foot to mortgage and everything else you know. He was a phenomenal person and he built this area up you know really Johnson city but my dad bought a house on Harry L drive and it was just like a two-family house. He put an addition on, how he did it I have no idea, and but it ended up where he paid for that house too. So, I do not know where there a mortgage to EJ’s or not I do not really know. HD: Is the house still here? PH: Yes. In the corner of Harry L drive in Pearl Avenue. That is where I was born and raised. There is a little story about that house I will have to tell you afterwards, or I can tell you now. HD: Actually, tell us now I am very curious. PH: When I was probably about 12 years old or so. There is an empty lot next to our house and the Oasis restaurant. It was bout and the whole side of the building came a part like this and you know all the glass and everything and the glass in our house was gone and everything, and I remember that, you know. HD: I bet, I think anyone would… that must have frightened you. PH: But the reason why was he was still selling bears for five cents a glass and had to be the mafia or something and after that he you know followed the rules I guess. HD: Raised the price. PH: Yeah. HD: Wow. Was the Oasis Restaurant owned by a Ukrainian? PH: Yes, Mr. Golitruck. HD: Okay, I heard… We interviewed Mike, one of my students did so– PH: But we grew up with that family actually, you know, so he was very instrumental and keeping the Ukrainian traditions going because he loved the dancing and the plays that they used to have and he brought in student teachers then was Avramenko who was well-known and everything and he gave a class here that my brother and my sister were in that first class. So, this I think was before our church was even built. HD: This is a class in Ukrainian dance? PH: Ukrainian dance right, and plays and– HD: So, what was the name of the instructor again? PH: Vasyl Avramenko. HD: Avramenko, okay. PH: Yeah. HD: Okay. Very interesting. Um– PH: I never met him [laughs]. HD: [laughs] PH: I had the pamphlet that they had though, you know, so. HD: So, your mother’s family; are they also from former Austria-Hungary? PH: Yes. HD: From the same region? PH: Actually, if you are looking at Poland now; here is Poland here is Ulychne right here and down about, you know, I do not know maybe fifty miles or less maybe ten miles, I do not know, is Tara Vavruska. That is where my mum was from. HD: Okay. PH: So, it is the same area; Austria-Hungary. HD: Okay. Further south. PH: I do not know when they met, where they met, anything of that nature, you know. And during the war, before the second World War and a little bit afterwards my mum always kept correspondence with her family, you know, and in the late forties is when all correspondence stopped. So, she could not get a hold on them anymore and this was because the Polish and the Russian government split up the families and their whole family was split up. So, actually I ended up meeting my uncle Leon Gancevich when I was over there with my daughter Pan. And he lived right next to the German border, so that is where he was transported from one side of Poland and they split up the whole families. You could not go two people from one family going to the same place. Split them all up. HD: So, this was deliberate then? PH: Yes, yes yeah! HD: Wow! Um go– PH: But actually, a lot of it was the Russian influence too not only the Polish influence you know, but um, yeah. HD: But now you are… are you in touch with anyone else on your mother’s side apart from– PH: I was with Leon in fact, my two granddaughters when they came and met us he brought us his brother and, no must be his son. And then two granddaughters and they had just taken two years of English. So, they were the interpreters because I could not speak Polish, I could understand a little bit of Ukrainian but, and that is a different story too. HD: That means they grew up speaking Polish not Ukrainian? PH: Yes. HD: Okay. That makes sense. PH: Well actually, you know, like my mum or my dad was Ukrainian but he could speak Polish. My mum was Polish but she could speak Ukrainian, so they talked both languages there. HD: Okay. PH: Possibly even, you know others too, I do not know. But they wanted to learn English especially my mom because my dad working in EJ’s, you know, got a lot of that so he was a citizen already and my mom was not. So, I used to teach her, you know, all the questions and everything that had to be done and that was great. HD: Did your mom learn Ukrainian? PH: Was she what? HD: Did she learn Ukrainian because she grew up she was Polish? PH: She knew Ukrainian, yeah. No, she… You know I would think that she was Ukrainian. I never thought that she was from that side of the, you know, from Polish. But the name of course is a Polish name, you know. So– HD: Very interesting– PH: But I always thought she was Ukrainian. AD: What was the language in the house when you were growing up? PH: It is very interesting because both my parents wanted to learn English and of course, you know, my growing up I could not really do too much with them but my brothers and sisters did too while they were still living there. So, I kind of grew up by myself because by the time I was 12 or so or younger my brothers and sister had already been married and moved out of the house. So, they were stuck with me [laughs]. HD: How many of them? How many children were there in your family? PH: Five; two brothers and two sisters. Yeah, in fact this year, my two older sisters passed away; one at 92 and one at 96, and one in February and one in April. Yeah, so we came back from Florida a little bit quicker, than what we wanted too, you know, and my first sister Annie passed away in February, so I came back and you know went through all of that and they were sharp as tacks, really, you know, unbelievable. And my sister Mary especially, you know. But I spent some time with them before and I came home about a week before my sister Mary passed away so I came home on a Sunday. I spent a whole day, Monday with her, she lives in Port Crane and we talked for about two hours, you know. And she says I am getting better every day. So, you know, and I talked to her every day, went up there a couple of times and talked to her on Saturday before she passed away. So, it was nice. HD: Did everyone stay in this region, so your brothers and both of your sisters? PH: Yes, both of my brothers did, both of my sisters did. HD: And are they all members of this church? PH: Yes, well no my two brothers married couple of Polish girls from St. Stanislaus so, that was the church that they went to, you know. They stayed with their wives. HD: Okay. PH: But we are a family we are still very close. HD: Yeah, and I guess my other questions do you all in your homes maintain Ukrainian or Polish right, some sort of homeland tradition and practices? PH: Mostly Ukrainian. HD: Okay. So, this is intriguing to me. Why the Ukrainian when you also have Polish in your heritage? Do you have any idea? PH: I think a lot depends on the traditions, you know, as far as our immediate family it was always Ukrainian, and actually my wife was Catholic, Roman Catholic, we got married in a Roman Catholic Church but I stayed with St. John’s and she stayed with Saint James and at that time the Catholic religion was changing a little bit you know, it went from Latin to English, and then they had music in the churches and everything else too, you know, so she was kind of disenchanted with that, so I think about three years into our marriage she, we sat with father and Pani and uh she decided to change. So, she did. She is a great Ukrainian, Polish– HD: [laughs] PH: And Slovak. [laughs]. She was Polish and Slovak, yeah. HD: Okay, that makes sense, um now with your wife’s family, was she also born in Johnson City, did she grow up in Johnson City? PH: I did not, she did. HD: And her parents worked at EJ? PH: Actually, her dad worked at EJ’s first, her parent her mom they had eight kids so she was a stay-at-home mom. Then he left EJ’s and worked for IBM. He worked evenings because he was an avid golfer so he would golf during the daytime and worked at night. HD: Wow! [laughs]. So, before I wanted before I talk about your own family, you know, raising kids, I am really curious about um life on the street, near where you grew up because you know there was Ukrainian quarter store, the Oasis is Ukrainian restaurant, there are two, now there are two Ukrainian churches on this hill, there must have been a lot of Ukrainian people living on the same street, what was it like when you– PH: Yes and no. They were kind of spread out all over the place. I mean there is a couple of families on Myrtle avenue, there is, there quite a few on Pearl avenue, some on Harry L drive, you know right in that whole section on the North side primarily. And it was because there was a church there and the church originally was in a grocery store. It was Kiriam’s grocery store on Harry L Drive that was where they had services to begin with. And then they went from there when the church was built they went from there and right up to the church on Virginia Avenue. And that was in, the church was built in 1929 but the church itself was started like in 1926 that was when they had a Ukrainian community there, you know. And my parents were one of the founding families also. So, there were you know quite a few families and it was interesting how they started though, you know, so– HD: So, when you had time to play as a kid, did you mostly play with your siblings, did you go on the street and play with other kids on the street, did you go to the church? PH: Not my siblings were– HD: They were older– PH: Yeah, they were older so, and actually none of them graduated from high school. I was the first son to graduate from high school. HD: Interesting– PH: So, in those days, you worked, you know as soon as you could you support the family and help the family and both my brothers worked for Endicott Johnson. They both had Endicott Johnson homes, you know. So, that was one of the things too, you know. Maybe my brother Nicks was not in an EJ home, I do not know but my brother Joe’s was. He was the oldest one anyway. But my growing up we had about 20 or 30 guys in that whole neighborhood but like over two or three streets and everything, and very active but especially sports, you know. But we did not, you know, twelve years old when father and Pani came here. That’s a different story I will get into that after, but actually our neighborhood was just strictly, you know with the boys we played Kick the Can in the street and other things you know. Hide and go seek, kids I do not think do that anymore [laughs], except maybe in the house. HD: [laughs], yeah-yeah. PH: But it was a great growing up, you know. And my parents were fantastic, I mean we had no car, did not have a car we walked every place, you know. And they were great parents. HD: So, your father walked to work? He worked to EJ? PH: Yeah. Walked to EJ’s. I walked to high school. I walked to Harry L Drive; I walked to Johnson City High school to see Fred. You know, so I did walk. HD: Wow! PH: Getting little tears in my eyes. HD: [laughs]… What about, how much was the church a center of social life beyond just Sunday? PH: For me it was and anybody in that age range really was more when father and Pani came when I was 12 years old, but there was a lot before that because I was an altar boy at seven that was usually when you can become an altar boy and we had, we did not have Ukrainian dancing then. I mean there, I think there was an older group but we also were very instrumental and singing our Christmas Carols on the seventh of January, and we used to go from house to house when I was a kid you know we started Ukrainian school at the age seven and it was five days a week from four to five o’clock in the afternoon. I hated every minute of it, because that was when we played in the neighborhood, you know after school. So, as a consequence our teachers were not that good and probably was a priest or somebody else I remember, you know, and as a consequence I did not learn very much Ukrainian and my parents did not teach me Ukrainian. They wanted know English. So, you know I spoke to them in English and they spoke to me in an Americanized Ukrainian, you know, so that is how we got along. But, you know, like I said at that time like when I was seven, I think my sister Annie maybe still home but my two brothers and older sister were not, you know, so, but I feel badly about that now because I started in a choir when father and Pani came I was under a couple of other priests as an altar boy but when I came when I was 12 when they came in he wanted to start the choir so he put me in the choir and took me of the altar because he had a lot of altar boys. So, I started singing tenor in a choir now I am a bass [all laugh] but since I was 12 so I am still, you know, I have been singing almost 72 years. HD: You are still there. Wow! PH: In a choir so. HD: And I have heard your choir, it is beautiful. PH: It used to be a larger choir than what it is now, but you know and it was great, all my kids sang in a choir too in order once; my son Mark, my daughter Pam and the other ones did not sing too much there but they know all the Christmas and carol’s and things. So, when I was seven they had a children’s choir that we went. We used to walk in Johnson city just couple of streets in a winter time in a snow and that is how we did it, you know, they had another regular choir from our church choir that went around and you know to all the houses and things and they had an adult choir. They used to go to all the Oasis’ and night clubs, not the night clubs but the other beer joints or whatever restaurants… so we had three choirs back in those days. HD: So, I am curious because you know this hill that the churches on, there are a lot of EJ houses and the streets go straight up the hill. Did you walk up those hills? PH: Oh, yes. HD: How did you have enough breath to sing [laughs]? Wow! PH: You know it is funny because growing up we had the CFJ pool, you could swim there for nothing. We did not do that. We used to build dams in a creek you know, and we had that were six and eight feet deep. That was how they were. So that is what we did. That was kids growing up but we still went to the CFJ pool too. But that is where we played in the creek you know. We used to play under water tag and you know water was clear so we would get side throw it in, dirty the water up so you could not see anything. That is how we played. [all laugh]. HD: Most people want clean water, right? PH: Well, you know, we did not so we could not see each other you know. HD: Yeah, that is great. PH: That is great and then, as far as walking up to hills, we used play in the hills all the time, and we would also go up Stella Island Road to, it used to be a dairy farm up there that had a little pond. So, we used to, we even built a damn that far up in a creek you know, so that was up until I was like 12 years old or so, you know. So that is what we did. HD: So, the rule was you could play until supper time? PH: Uh Actually, when I was going to the Ukrainian school from like about 7 until 10 I think, I think after that I do not know what happened, maybe it was more than that, you know, tough to remember back [all laugh] that time, you just remember the good things in, but else happened you know. So, the neighborhood itself really very-very, you know, it was just really a good bringing up, you know, kids do not do that anymore. And right on the corner across the street from us was Collis’ grocery store and a gas station there. So that was always the headquarters. We would always be sitting there. So, my mother came out about 9 o’clock at night and say, she would say, Peedie come home [laughs] and I would get embarrassed all the time. So, I was probably one of the youngest ones in that group, you know, of the 20 or 30 that we had. So, I was the all-time center in a football team. I get killed all the time, and we used to get on a bus in Johnson City on Main Street travel to Endicott with our football gear on, play an Endicott team and come back on a bus. The parents never took us anywhere, of course my parents did not have a car but the other parents did not take us anyplace either, you know. So, this is how we grew up. HD: Did your wife grow up in the same neighborhood? PH: She grew up on Reynolds Road which was kind of the Oakdale such in a Johnson City. That is where she went to school; Oakdale. All of our group went to Harry L Drive. So that is what it is now. It is an apartment house or a nursing home now. HD: So how did you meet your wife? PH: That is a good story [laughs]. It had to be I think about 1956 because I got home from the service then and I was tending bar at Saint Jon’s social club and some of the girls from our church were good friends with her. And they came down and I think it had to be when she was 18 because I think I made her, her first screwdriver, so you know, I remember that and she remembers that. So, that is when we met, you know, we just met to say hello that was it, you know. And a couple of the girls from my church were in her same little group in school. So that is how I met. So, I became interested and uh actually I was about uh 26 when I got married and she always she was thirteen. [all laugh]. But she was not. So, a couple years after that we got married. I think the following year it had to be, no it had to be let us see more than maybe (19)57 is when I went to Georgetown and second year is when we got married, my second year after Georgetown. HD: So, why did you go to Georgetown? PH: Dental school. HD: Okay. PH: At first, I, actually I got out of the high school in 1950. I worked for a year I did not go to college, and I worked as a bookkeeper and truck loader at Douglas Collins Supply Company for a year. And then I went to Broome which was not Broome then it was New York State Institute of Applied arts and Sciences. So, I went there for two years in Chemistry. I thought I was going to be a chemical engineer. And I got interested in Dentistry after I have got out of service. But before that there is no reason why I would become a dentist as a youngster and we did not have regular dental care or anything, you know, so I went to the EJ dental clinic and I had three first molars extracted– HD: Not a great experience! PH: So, how would I want to be a dentist you know– HD: Oh, no. [laughs]. PH: So, those teeth actually came in, my third, my second and my wisdom teeth came in, three of them and I just had one wisdom tooth that I have had taken out eventually. But that was it. HD: So, when were you on service? PH: 1954 to 1956. HD: Okay. PH: I was in a Signal Corps, and I went to a foreign country, Puerto Rico. HD: Oh. [laughs] PH: For two years. HD: Was it a good experience? PH: Yes, very much so. HD: So, anybody else, I do not know how it works in military, is there anyone else from this region that went with you, signed up at the same time, ended up in the same area? PH: There were two that came from this area that went to… we had to go up to Syracuse for a physical, and once we went through there, we went to basic training together but then we got split up during basic training. HD: Okay, and then you met your wife after you came back? PH: Yes. HD: You said was the Saint John’s social club? So, tied to this church? PH: Yeah. HD: Interesting. PH: That is in the memorial center, still is there. HD: Okay, so was it open every evening or once a week? PH: Well, I think it was open every evening back then, yeah. HD: And they had a bar you said? PH: They had a bar, yeah. And of course, I would be in the bar we did not get paid or anything but you know that is how it was. HD: And did a lot of people come including people from outside the Ukrainian community? PH: When I was a bartender we had, we made the most out of anybody there that whole month. HD: [laughs] That is great. PH: Because I got all my friends in, you know so. HD: Yeah. So that whole crowd of 20 or 30 you hang out with, did they all come? PH: Well not that many but a few, yeah. HD: Okay, that is really good. So, now you met your wife, in that interlude between meeting your wife and actually marrying your wife, for instance when you brought her home, I mean your parents are already Ukrainian-Polish mixed, so they must have been thrilled, did they care what her background was? PH: My mother said why you do not marry a nice Ukrainian girl. HD: What [laughs], okay? PH: But my wife Phyllis was fantastic, you know. HD: Yeah, they could not… what about her family? Did they want a nice Polish boy? PH: No, not really. I just taught her mother a little Ukrainian saying, and once I told her what it was that was it you know. So, she loved me from that time on. HD: What was the saying? PH: [all laugh]. In fact, I told Phyllis this too, so she memorized it, I did not tell her what it was. [speaking Ukrainian] HD: Okay, and can we have the quote? What does it mean? PH: “How are the chickens shitting?” HD: Oh. [laughs] PH: So once her mother knew that, that was it. HD: That is very funny. [laughs] PH: [speaking Ukrainian] HD: Yeah. So, now– PH: So actually, I met her that first time after my first year in dental school, so the second year is, or it had to be the first year that I met her because then we start going out through now like, she would not go out at first and then we did go out for like two weeks and that was it. And I was wearing a new outfit just about as much as I could so after first week or a week and a half so I had to go back to what I wore before actually and she did not but I did not know she was borrowing clothes from her girlfriends. HD: [laughs] Oh, that is great. PH: Yeah, she had a different outfit on all the time. So, we went for two weeks we had such great time. We went out every night after the first date. You know. HD: Where did people go? PH: We went to, first date, we went to Schnitzel bank which was a restaurant on upper Court Street, and they had these little straws and we used to break them and it would fly up to the ceiling so we kept doing that we just had such a good time and good dinner and everything, and then after that we went to one of the pick stands in Endicott and that was it we had such a good time. HD: So now you… after you went to dental school, you got married– PH: I got married after my second year of dental school. HD: After your second year? PH: Yeah. HD: Okay. PH: During the second year. HD: When you finished dental school, did you work for someone else? Did you set up your own dental office? PH: I was already accepted to Ortho-school when I was a senior I had applied and we had our first child then, and it was like in May of the year I was supposed to go up to Buffalo for an interview, Pam was being born, she was born in April but she was. It was still, you know, was not ready to… it was the first part of April. I was in the middle of the final exams and had no money to go from Washington D.C. to Buffalo, so I called and told them, and said I cannot do it. So they put me on an alternate list and so when I got out of school, when I graduated, I worked for another orthodontist, Dr. Orchard in Binghamton and of course they wanted me to come in to the practice and everything too you know, but I was only there a couple of weeks and set up a preceptorship program and at that time you could do it that way but it had to be approved by the American Orthodontic Association. So, it was approved but the problem was I set up the program and you know, so I did not get much input from Dr. Orchard. So, I knew I could not get the education I needed so I was there like two months and it was approved and everything and I called Buffalo again and they said well come up for an interview which I did, and when I, they said well we will accept you the following September. So, when I went back and told Dr. Orchard he was not very happy but I told him why and I said, it is changing and everything and you just have to have the education. So that is what happened. But he still had me on a payroll and everything, you know I was getting 75 dollars a week and that is what kept us going so, that was really you know. That is how it was. So, when I came back after that of course during that first year with Dr. Orchard is when Dr. Mark was born and we went up to actually I went up to Buffalo myself for three months, my wife came up after about three months or so, and she was expecting then and that is where Jeffry was born in Buffalo. So, Pam was born in Washington… right where one of the Kennedy’s was born at the same time so, I met him there when I was… We watched him coming to the hospital, you know and everything. Pam was interesting because that was our first born and we did not know what was up or down and the OB guy we had was fantastic, you know, he did not charge us a nickel and the… he wanted to know what kind of anesthesia you wanted, you know, and my wife did not want any pain she said I do not want to feel any pain or anything baba so we had a general anesthesia, believe it or not they do not do that anymore. HD: No! PH: So Pam’s first breath was taken after about 12 minutes after she was born and I have it right on her medical records and everything and I did not get that until Pam became, she went to nursing school at Georgetown, So I said pull up your record and make a copy for, you know, so she did 12 minutes underlined in red first breath, so of course they did not cut the umbilical cord anything you know but that is what happened. HD: So, now we asked before the interview, but I am looking at the information again now how many children do you have? PH: Six. HD: Six. How many boys, how many girls? PH: Three boys, three girls. HD: Okay, and do they all still live in this area? PH: All live in the area except my daughter Pam who, not Pam but Nicole who married a boy and from Massapequa park in Long Island and they came here, they lived in New Jersey for a while, they came back here and he got his MBA at SUNY Binghamton and so they lived here for a while then at that time he was working after that he worked for IBM for a little bit of time, then once his friend from Wall Street was a managing director up in stockbrokerage firm in Boston and he took a job up there. So, you know they got them a free ride up there and everything else and he became actually a managing director himself while he was up there. So, she is in Boston my other daughter Christie when Nicole got married another boy from Massapequa park was in the wedding ceremony too so he kind of liked Christie so they were going back and forth and they got engaged and disengaged and got engaged and then finally got married, so then she moved to Massapequa park. That is where she is now. The other four stayed here. HD: And what events… I think you said that they come… everybody comes and they gather here for Ukrainian Christmas? PH: Ukrainian Christmas right, on the 7th of January– HD: And the Festival, in mid of July. PH: Oh, the ones that can, make it from out of town. But they usually do and we do it on Easter, so our Easter is always… so it is different from American Easter, they would all come in the town on Easter. And my wife does all the cooking. AD: Ukrainian? Does she cook Ukrainian? PH: Yeah. Well we have Haluski and Pierogi and you know. HD: So also, how many grandchildren do you have? PH: Nineteen. HD: And how many great grandchildren? PH: One and a half. [all laugh]. One year old, she is like fifteen or sixteen months. She is unbelievable. You know, she calls me Beepa. Well, Pam called us Meema and Beepa, she could say Grandme and Grandpe, so my wife is a Meema, I am a Beepa. We used to have that on a license plate, but we do not have it anymore. HD: So, raising you children, was important to you that they knew something about Ukrainian tradition? PH: Well they were involved in a church all the way through their young life, adult life and afterwards. HD: So, what is it…? What aspects of Ukrainian culture are particularly valuable you think for your children and grandchildren? PH: Well we have to go back to when father and Pani came in 1945 because they were a big influence on us, and they had the ability to be a member of everybody’s life, you know. Everybody thought that you know, they were part of their family which is really true. So, we used to say to our kids, if you do not behave we are going to tell father and Pani. So that was kind of a hammer over their heads you know, but they were fantastic people. And they instilled the traditions, you know the caroling, the dancing. They started the dance group when they first came. And I was 12 then but she said to the boys then and there was a couple of thirteen, fourteen look you do not have the dance with any of the girls, you just do the sort dance and the woodcutters and bluh-bluh … So, then we did that for a little bit of time and then she kind of introduced us to the female aspect of it with dancing, you know we did not dance with girls then, you know. It is different in today but that is what happened. So, we had a great dance group. We probably gave pretty close over that ten-year period time that I danced probably over 100 premises you know all over the country. We used to do it for the EJ dinners and stuff that they had there too. We would have dancing there. We also had an Andrews Sisters act that we put on too myself, George Stasko and John Milwaukee and we did that for a while too but somewhere in those books. HD: So, when you were raising your children, and it might not be even a Ukrainian thing, right what were some of the… what are some of the traditions that brings your children seem to cherish and really want to hold on to, the things that really brought your family together? PH: Well I think it has to be the main stays for the Ukrainian music, you know, the Christmas Carols, the choir carols and things. It had to do with the dancing because they all grew up when they were, started dancing, at two to three year of age and they still do. And it had to be the Christmas celebrations, the Easter celebrations, so and then on January the 7th we used to carol from house to house. And we still do that today, and right now we go… we used to go by cars all the time you know, in the snow and sometimes all the cars would get there sometimes they would not, they get lost or whatever. Now we have a bus, and we all get on a bus and you know, even the young ones and we go. HD: That is great! PH: Yeah. HD: So, do all your children go to Ukrainian Orthodox Churches? PH: Uh-huh. Yep. HD: Great. PH: My daughter goes to… there is a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Boston but we go also to an Albanian one. It is the same divine liturgy and everything so, because it is close by and the Southern one is you quite a distance yeah when we go up there we go to Albanian Church. But we have gone to the Ukrainian Orthodox too, so. HD: So, this is something I am curious about too; and it is not necessarily though Ukrainian history per say because the liturgy is shared even though the language changes from one church to the next an Orthodox tradition, do you find you can go to any Orthodox Church and feel very much at home. PH: It is the same Divine Liturgy that may put in a few of the ethnic languages in there but it is all the same Divine Liturgy, you know, and actually Orthodoxy was before Catholicism. So, that is how it started, you know. And so, it goes back, you know that far. HD: That is right. PH: But it has not changed. It is the same Divine Liturgy, you know. HD: What about icons, do you have icons at home? PH: Uh-huh HD: Okay, and are they for religious purposes or are they art? PH: Well, as far as icons are concerned, in our home themselves, we have some but it is not like you would have a lot of them, you know. There was a church in Dover, Florida that a monk built himself. He was actually a doctor and worked in University of Tampa, and that is the most icons I have ever seen in any place. He brought them back from Ukraine and you know, and it was just fantastic, it was a small church almost like almost like our old Church on Virginia Avenue, and he built a rectory actually it was a monastery and he built a memorial center with his own money and I have been there quite a few times and actually whenever the metropolitan, at that time he was a bishop and an archbishop but now he is metropolitan but, would come in to town there so he would always call us and say you got to go to Dover you know because I will be there. That was when we went to Dover. And it was about an hour plus drive from where we were and but I am talking about the young canister, so that is the most I have ever seen. I have been to Ukraine a couple of times and I have been to some of the museums there and everything. Iconography, was you know, was very big there. So– HD: I mean my question was in part whether very traditionally in you know Ukrainian peasant homes or Russian peasant homes they would have an icon corner for instance, right? PH: Yeah. HD: And so, I am wondering if anything of that was carried over to North America an antique in contemporary homes? PH: Well I think it has in a lot of the homes and things. It was not necessarily in ours to begin with. And the iconography, Andreov who lives in Lisle or Whitney Point one of those places was the one that was instrumental and did our iconography behind the altar here, so and that actually was… I was on that iconography committee and it almost split the church in half because of what was happening, Andreov was actually Russian iconographer and it was not so much him as it was the priest we had at that time father Zaroski and who was from Lviv in Ukraine and I have been in Lviv which is a beautiful city and that is a whole different story there but the thing is, the iconography seemed to divide the church because of things they were happening and what they wanted to put up there and what they did not, you know, we had a committee and the committee decided which… what we should have and during like in the middle part of the thing the iconographer wanted to put in a couple of seraphym and cherabum and just we did not want have that in there. So, we took that part out of it, out, and then what happened is that we got a call and I got a call and one of the other guys on the committee called said you know, you got what you wanted now. You wanted these angels on each side of the icon wall and that is where he wanted on the outside of the icon wall, not on the inside where the icon is. You know, so they put it, he put it on the inside without telling the committee or doing anything and you know that kind of you know really made it hard and half the church was okay with-it half was not, you know, so that is really what happened. HD: I do have to say as someone who is not a member of the church and who is not really well-versed in iconography it is a real pleasure to come into a church like that, and I grew up Calvinist, there were no images, and so it is a particular… it brings joy, you know to see it. PH: Right, it does. Icons actually do that. They really do. HD: Yeah. So, we have been talking for over an hour and I do not want to– PH: We have been talking that long? HD: Yeah. So, is there something that I did not ask you that you really wanted to share or were hoping I would ask you? PH: I had somethings here that not about my… but I did on jobs and things I do not think that is really important although I had some very unusual once. Growing up we used to pick beans on a daily basis, peas and beans and a truck would pick us up right on Harry L drive, we go to the fields pick the beans, used get fifty cent a bushel, and it took you a long time to do a bushel. [laughs] HD: Oh, yeah. PH: So, and then drop you off at night. Well one summer, they slogged it, some of the guys in our group, we went up to Norwich and we stayed there for like two, almost three months during the summer. No parents, no parental control, nothing you know, just us, but it was our same group from the area, you know, plus they had other people too, you know but so we pick beans and peas for almost two and a half months. HD: Where did you stay? PH: We stayed in shacks that they had, you know it was kind… like you would see in the movies– HD: Shacks without houses? PH: Shacks with you know bedroom and then they had an outhouse and everything you know. But that is where we used to stay in. AD: How old were you? PH: I had to be probably, probably I was in thirteen, fourteen, 12, 13, 14 area range. HD: This is interesting too, so you worked. This would have been a summer job. PH: Yeah, a summer job. HD: Did you keep your wages or you expected to contribute to the family? PH: Actually, if I remember right I kept my wages. And I remember buying a very colorful sweater and that was it, you know [all laughs]. And when my mother saw that she said, you know, how much did you pay for this, you know, so but we did not make a lot of money, you know, but it was more of… we used to go swimming in a river there, you know, so it was just that was what we did here too, you know, we swam in a river in the Susquehanna many times. HD: How did you find that job? Like did someone come to your high school was– PH: No, this was the job that they did during the summer. These trucks would come and if you wanted to work, that is how you pick peas and beans. HD: Oh, you just went down to Harry L and– PH: yeah, they would just pick us up, you know– HD: Interesting. PH: we probably had 10 or 12 guys went, you know from our area here. And– HD: Did women ever go? Was it mostly young people? PH: Mostly I do not remember too many women going, no. There were no women at the thing in Norwich, they were just men. HD: Oh, yeah, very interesting. Is there anything else? PH: I took Chemistry, you know at Broome, and I was hired by Columbia Gas in Pittsburgh because my next-door neighbor worked for Columbia Gas here, so he said why you do not see what they have, you know. They have an opening there. So, I called and two of us from the class went there and we were accepted. We were building a Chemistry lab, took us two weeks to do that, got all the equipment and everything for testing corrosion on a gas pipeline. Okay, so we had that all done in two weeks. I get a call on entry office and the bus wants me to Willing West Virginia in charge of a 26-inch gas construction line, and you do the corrosion on it too. So, I said I do not know anything about construction or anything he said well, just check with the supervisor, that was it, you know. So went myself by myself, you know I went in for the power wagon and things drove all the way down from Pittsburgh to Willing, West Virginia. It was the first time I was in a power wagon [laughs] had no idea what to expect but anyway a good old redneck all-timer took me under his wing and we got the job done. I am sitting in the dugout where the pipeline is going, you know, and I am checking, putting in some test wires and things and I get up to go out and here is the pipeline up above and a cable snaps bang right where I was sitting– HD: Oh, wow! PH: So, that was I remember that experience very clearly, so yeah. That was kind of-of unusual, you know, then another one I had to do as I had, after that was done, I was put me on another job there was just the two of us from Broome tech and four engineers and I went with this one engineer to Cumberland, Maryland to put in a six foot carbon thing in a water tank, you know these big water tanks you had to climb up and everything. So, I was with this engineer who was afraid of heights. So, I had to carry everything up on that back and forth, a settling torch and all through you know put it on the well into the tank and everything and that was probably one of the worst jobs I have ever had. You know, that was– HD: yeah, so who was sending you on these jobs? Who was your employer, who was sending you on these jobs? PH: It was the guy who was in charge of the corrosion, the department. He was in charge of, he and four other engineers, and the two of us that set up the… and the other guy went with was the guy who was testing the corrosion lines in lab but I did not do that [all laugh]. HD: So, you did this and then before you went to the service? PH: Yeah. HD: Very interesting. PH: After, in fact I came home and worked for six weeks at home, putting in corrosion lines from where Quaker Lake is from that area north for about six weeks, so I put in all the corrosion lines along that pipeline. And then I went back to Pittsburgh and I got drafted. So, they wanted to keep me out, I said no I am going to go in, not knowing– HD: Where– PH: You know, so I was like had to be like about 22 years old. HD: So, was it the experience of having to climb up that water tank that made you decide to be a dentist? PH: No, [all laugh]. I got interested in dentistry after I got out of the service really, and I checked into it and I needed one-year biology in order to get in to the criteria that I needed for dental school. So, I checked with one of the dentists who was a New York State president, New York State Dental Society Dr. Irvy and he said do not go to dentistry. He said it is changing so badly that you know and of course I did not know anything about orthodontics then either but I said well, I still thought being your own boss and you know and doing everything you know that would be the thing to do, so that is what I did. AD: So, your son took over your practice, he is the only other one who studied orthodontics? PH: My youngest son is also a general dentist. AD: Okay. PH: And I let him make up their own mind, I did not push him into dentistry or anything else. So, he did about the same thing that Mark did. So, to get into Eastman Dental you usually have to have two years of general practice, general dental practice and so, Mark and Peter both went to general practice residency in Eastman, first year, second year they took a TMJ, temporomandibular joint course for a year and then you could get into orthodontic school. Right now, I have a grandson Patrick who just graduated from Buffalo Dental. He is accepted to the Orthodontic program at Eastman. He started in 27th of this month, without any experience. That was probably because Mark was on the staff of Eastman Dental, because he still goes up there and teaches up there. So, that is great and Patrick could come back in maybe go take over Mark’s practice. HD: Do you have any family members who work in the practice like behind the desk? PH: Oh, yeah. Well, my wife took care of the pay rolling, when she was when I was working. Both Mark worked in the lab in fact when he was a senior in high school. I sent him up to Buffalo for a week to learn how to all the models and retainers and things, ok, so that was his experience there. All my other kids who worked in the office do as much as I could get them… Mark’s kids do too. AD: Was your office like his office, because we call his office like Disney world? PH: I was in a home. It was Doctor Orchard’s practice, and actually there is an apartment upstairs, and it was a small, you know, we had four operatory and it was tiny but we used all the space that you could. So, Mark was in there about ten years. And I was there when three years after Mark took over. So, that is where it started. It was not like Disney world but we did a lot of nice things you know. We started the scholarship things he gives out every year; ten scholarships, ten or twelve. AD: Yes, he uses a lot of character work is that from you? PH: Well that is when we were together, yeah, we started that. And but he is the entrepreneur too, you know. That is really good. So, he takes a school, you know at least one student from each school is gets a scholarship, you know, so. In fact, he just got something from the Binghamton School system too because we give things to the health area you know and some other things there that he has been doing all that time too. You know so. It is we started way back when… So, it is nice. Yeah. HD: It is great. AD: I always ask this question, so I will ask you too. So how do you identify yourself? PH: How do I identify myself? AD: Yes, like when people ask let us say you are somewhere they do not know you, and how would you say I am American– PH: I am Peter Hatala, you know. I am Ukrainian. AD: So, you say I am Ukrainian? PH: Yeah. AD: Okay. PH: I mean if you get into that conversation, yes. AD: Of course, like when you get in. So, being Ukrainian is part of your identity? PH: But usually I say oh, I have six children and 19 grandchildren. [all laugh] AD: Of course. PH: I do not say one and a half grandchildren. So– AD: So how about your children? Do they identify themselves as Ukrainian or American-Ukrainian? PH: I think they would say Ukrainian also. Of course, American-Ukrainian, you know. Yeah, I think they would. AD: So that is still, that is really important; that it is still continuing that– HD: Did your children marry Ukrainians? PH: No. Pam married an Irish man. Actually, when they came back to this area, they came back here. They continued dancing in their adult lives, Bill was Irish and he did Ukrainian dancing, you know. HD: Especially there is a lot of work for the men– PH: I remember singing at Robinson and putting on, not only the singing, you know the choir, but also, they were dancing and both Pam and Bill were dancing at the time there, so yeah. That is Pam; Mark married a redneck from West Virginia [all laugh]. And they still talk to it; she was from Pittsburgh, West Virginia. One red light in the whole town, okay, so we went into this one establishment. There a restaurant and I think they still talk about it, you know. Yeah, that was quite a party. It was interesting because Mark likes to do things unusual too, so when we had the dinner, you know after the ceremony and everything in this one building we found an old black coffin. So, we put Mark in the coffin and carried him in for the dance. HD: Wow! [laughs] PH: Yeah, opened up the coffin and he comes back out and… [laughs] that was a fun time. That was Mark, let us see. The next one would be Jeff who married a Slovak girl from, actually, no she was from Saint Michael’s. That is right. So, she was Slovak Russian I think. And Next one is Nicole she married the Massapequa Park so, and then Christie married the Italian boy from, they are both Italian boys from Massapequa Park. And Peter married a nice girl from Vestal. So– HD: But all their spouses what is interesting if I understand correctly they all participate in Ukrainian traditions? PH: Yeah, all of four peter’s kids they live about three houses up from us, are all dancers now. They are in that book, so, it is great. AD: That is wonderful. So how did you get interested in working with these– PH: Family history? AD: Family, yeah– PH: One of our friends I grew up with was George Stasko left a church after he got married. He did a family history on his family. They had twelve kids in the family. So, you know that was a nice book, I said boy that was a great idea, you know, I am going to do that with my family and I think for the church it would be super. So that is how it started. And I think it started like about I do not know, 19 2011 is when I first got the idea to do it. And we had about fifty families, and these are the families that we have right here, you know and who I gave the books to and everything else. So, but you know we get a few more. I got one from a gal who used to be a dancer in Saint John’s Paticarium; got married and moved out of the area and they are in South Carolina or Virginia someplace like that. She sent back a book, and just recently her husband had some cancer problems and things so, she wanted to get the book back, you know, and she actually she gave it to me to begin with so, I had to copy that whole book [laughs] and you know send back the original to her. So, you know, but that was… but she said is it okay if I, you know keep the copy and everything, she said yeah that would be fine. So– HD: It also looks like you have been doing research into your own family history. PH: I am sorry? HD: It also looks like you have done a lot of researching into your own family? PH: Actually, what happened, Zenon … was instrumental in this? Each year he gives a speech in New York city, they have a seminar, it is all week long in the evenings and everything, and he talked about you know whatever is interesting at that time but one of the people from Poland came over and gave a talk on Ulychne. So, after the program he went up to her and he said you know our church has a lot of people from Ulychne, and she started crying. She was so happy to hear that, you know, so because that was her job in a Polish, I think she works for the Polish government. She is checking on all those people that came over during that time and everything so, I got her name. I emailed her and did not hear anything. About three months later I get a call and it is this Eric and I do not know I cannot remember the last name, it is a good Polish name called me and he… Phyllis would not let him talk to me. And then he says well I want to talk about Ulychne. So as soon as he heard that name I got on the phone. We talked for about an hour at least you know, and he said he wants to start a website on Ulychne and he heard that I was doing you know of that people from our church came so I sent him all that information and everything you know and he did set up the site. www.ulychne.org and this is where I got these things from. And he went, and found both families like this. And I know my father had two brothers and one sister and I knew the sister was in Paris since then she has passed away which I did not really get a chance to talk to her. That is another story anyway but. So that is those are from Ulychne site right there. So, I did get all the rest of my father’s family and I got a lot of my mother’s family, and you know. HD: And is this site is in English, in Polish. PH: English and Polish. HD: Okay, excellent. PH: Yeah. HD: Excellent. So, do you have more questions? AD: No. PH: There is a couple of other things that I did. The timeline on our church with all the priests, the organization and the timeline from 1926 to the current thing. We I still have to finish the last page or so but that is all way up to our current father Evan. HD: And you keep, you mentioned several times father and Pani. PH: Lawryk. HD: You mentioned as someone a Pani Julia. Got it, okay. PH: Yeah, Pani Julia. That is there book over there I would know if you had a chance to look at it– HD: No, not yet. PH: I can pile that one. Right there. He was as close to the Saint as I will ever see. HD: Really? PH: Really, unbelievable. HD: Was he born here or in Ukraine? PH: Oh, that’s father Zolachetski. She has got the one Father Lark. HD: Was he born here? PH: No. I think he was born in Ukraine. His mother was an Obstetrician and he actually was in a Marine Corps before becoming a priest and I just like the front part here was one part but back here is, and this is Pani Lawryk actually. What is a priest is fantastic; I always put that in there. And that is what he wrote into one of our books and everything. But Pani, you know, after he passed away, she moved to Texas where there actually Minneapolis she moved to. Her daughter lived in Texas who passed away. She had an anemia type a thing. And died very early but she went to Minneapolis because that is where she was from and her brother was still out there and everything. And our whole family went to visit her, I been out to her couple of times visit her you know actually with my wife and then we were going to take the whole family for her birthday. So, we did, we all went there all our kids, you know and we came in and did not talk to her that evening. We got in there like, you know afternoon or evening. So, we were going to meet all the next day with her family. So, we were going to have a birthday party for her. She passed away that night. HD: Oh, wow. PH: And we did not know it until the next morning. So, we still went on with the party too you know. HD: You could still celebrate her life. PH: Yeah, that was tough. AD: You mentioned life story of a woman like you said 43, 50 pages long a story right at the beginning of the interview, you were talking about somebody and then you said– HD: They brought up their story. AD: –Am I exaggerating the page numbers? PH: Oh, this is the… no…. Pani Lawryk interviewed her mom while she was still alive. AD: Okay, yeah. PH: And she was born in 1904 and it is in that book, the biography… That is fantastic; I mean it tells how she lived and how they lived in those days and everything. HD: So, I am looking at this book, just looking at the images from father and Pani they seem very charismatic. PH: What? HD: Very charismatic. PH: Yeah. HD: You know a lot of energy. She is very striking actually. AD: She is like an actress, right? HD: Yeah. PH: She was a great dancer too. Yeah. HD: So, we should stop the… Thank you, I want to thank you so much– PH: Okay no problem. AD: Thank you so much. HD: That was really wonderful. PH: Yeah. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian Americans; Immigrants; Ukrainian diaspora; Vestal (N.Y.) ; Ukrainian folk dancing Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Hatala Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Subject The topic of the resource Hatala, Peter. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Migrations; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Church; Ukrainian folk dancing; Broome County (N.Y.) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hatala, Peter ; DeHaan, Heather ; de Rouen, Aynur Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Dr. Peter Hatala was born in Johnson City, NY and he is a first-generation Ukrainian American. His father was an immigrant from Ulychne, Ukraine. Dr. Hatala is a retired orthodontist. He is married and resides in Vestal. He has six children and two grandchildren. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-06-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Peter Hatala.WAV Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-06-23 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 81:41 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5af6aa49103c2dd683874f39fdaef0df.m4a f73744d24fdd19500adfd44d9a545c75 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Peter Solecky Biographical Text Peter Solecky was born in 1946 in Munich, Germany. His mother, father, and two younger siblings came to America in 1951. They traveled through Ellis Island (their signatures are still there to this day) and eventually settled in Binghamton, New York. Solecky attended Rochester Institute of Technology and graduated with a bachelor’s degree in engineering science in 1969. He later returned to school for his master’s degree in Electrical Engineering at the University of Vermont. He lives in Binghamton, NY with his wife and two children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:11 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-06 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Solecky, Peter.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=PeterSolecky.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Germany; Refugee camps; World War, 1939-1945; Poland; Famines; Binghamton (N.Y.) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview with: Peter Solecky Interviewed by: Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Transcriber: Gabrielle Samaniego and Isaac Wolf Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 10:00 am Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) Isaac Wolf: I'm Isaac and this is Gabrielle and we are interviewing you for Binghamton University. What you tell us will go into the Historical Archives. Gabrielle Samaniego: Ok, so let's start out with, where were you born? Peter Solecky: Munich. GS: Oh is your family from there? PS: No my family is from the Ukraine. My mother was from central Ukraine, and my father was from south-- southeast corner of Poland which changed from Ukraine to Poland to Ukraine. He was born when it was Ukraine. After he was born it became Poland. You know sometimes they ask-- Are you Ukrainian or Polish? Right now it's Polish. GS: So how did you end up being born in Germany? PS: During the war of course, Hitler sent all his people to the front. They had no body to work the farms or factories, or very few people to work there. So every place he conquered like Poland and Ukraine or anywhere else that he took over, he took volunteers. He decided who volunteered. See my father was volunteered at the age of 16. My mother was volunteered at the age of 13. She actually ran away, because her father was very abusive. At 13, she decided to leave and ran away, you got to give a lot of credit to have a lot of nerve to do that. GS: By herself at 13? PS: Yeah. GS: Wow. PS: And they both ended up on the same farm rather than working in a factory, in Mittenwald, which is up about 5 kilometers from Munich. And uh, they worked in the farms, my father worked in the fields and my mother was milking the cows. IW: Was working on the farm considered to be more desirable than working in a factory? PS: It all depended. If you worked for someone that was good, in either the farm or factory, you could have had a respectable life. My father ended up with a boss who was decent not great but he actually fed him and took care of him. But it really all depended on who was running the show. GS: How long did you stay in Germany? PS: My parents stayed from 1943-1946, and I was born in '46. GS: And then where did you guys move to? PS: We moved here, we were on the D.P. camp, the displaced persons camp. Everyone in a D.P. camp did one of two things, either they went home where they original came from, or they decided not to go home because things were a lot worse home then they were even in Germany. The smart people didn't go home, like my father and mother. They decided that they were going to immigrate so they signed up for Australia. Their second choice was America, they didn't get their first choice. So we ended up here. And they looked for sponsors. My father found somebody who was remotely related to him here in the Binghamton area. Mrs. Nester, and she sponsored us, you had to have a sponsor. Somebody had to sign for you. And in those days your sponsor was responsible for everything! If you went to the hospital they had to pay. It wasn't like it is now. That's what it's all about immigration they came and they had nothing. We came with a box it was about this tall, that's all we had. We started from zero, we lived in Binghamton on Clinton Street. For the first three or four months my father went to work for Dellapenna Brothers on the streets with a jackhammer, he weighed 100 pounds, the jackhammer weighed 90 pounds. And all he could talk about is going back to Germany! He was actually very successful in Germany. He worked the black market? GS: Doing what? PS: He worked cigarettes and whiskey. And he also played cards. He traveled to Italy to France and he played a three cards games. You had two aces, or either a king or queen. And ugh he would show you-- You're supposed to play the queen of course. And the way he played, he would either flip the card from the top or sometimes the bottom. It was really tough to figure out where it is. He was very good at it. He made a lot of money doing it. GS: Really? PS: Yeah! I mean I don't know, but people who knew who always tell me, he was one of the richest men they knew there. He would have suitcases of money --yeah -- he did really well. That's probably why he wanted to go back to Germany because he came here with nothing. He was pretty industry. When the guys used to play cards. He didn't play he sold them cigarettes and booze. Not that bad eh? GS: What did your mom do in America? PS: When she came here? GS: Yes. PS: When she first came here she was just a house wife/mom. For the first four five years. See, I was about 10--so yeah about 4 years. She went to go work at EJ's, that's what everyone did. My father worked for Dellapenna Brothers for only about a year and a half, then he went to work at the shoe factory they both worked there. GS: Do you have any siblings? PS: Yeah. I have a brother and a sister. They were both born here. GS: So are you the oldest? PS: I am the oldest. Interesting story talking about-- I went to Poland with my father in 1969 to meet my grandparents. On my mother's side we could never trace down because she had a name like Smith it was a common name. And she didn't want to find her father. One of her brothers died in the war. The other brother lived and she tried to find him. I did find him but I never found any reference to any other family member. I never met anyone from my mother's side. My father's side I met his whole family. And she met my grandfather and my grandmother. Like I said in 1969, and during the time it was communism! The first thing you do when you come here, is you declare your citizenship no matter if you came from the city, you had to go through the court, the police station and register you were there. They would quiz you on where you from? Or whatever. I was born in Germany. My papers said I was a German citizen. My father was born, it said, in Ukraine. Because at the time he was born it was Ukraine. My grandfather changed to Polish. So we went there and they were like "ok you are German he's Polish, and he's from Ukraine, wait a minute, you can't be a family?" It was very funny, trying to explain. Pretty simple when you think about it. But yeah he was like "You can't be related?" But actually my father looks like my grandfather, and I look like my father, so you could see the resemblance. GS: It would be bad if you guys didn't resemble! PS: Well like I said my father was very industrial. He did very well here too. But my grandfather. He served in 3 different armies. He served in the Ukrainian army, the Polish army, and the Italian army. My grandfather was a womanizer. He would wake up, go make a child, then go back to the war. He did. There are a lot of Solecky’s out there that I don't even know about. I hear stories, he was a "Romeo" I guess. IW: How'd he end up in the Italian army? PS: He volunteered! He thought it would be better than the Polish or Ukrainian army. And it was. For him anyway. He got a horse. So yea. He just didn't want to stay home. So, my father had to work the fields from early age from 12 years old. And he never forgave his father for that. IW: So you mentioned, your father talking about missing Germany, do he ever talk about missing the Ukraine or Poland? PS: No because they had a very hard life. Harder life than they had in Germany. My mother had a hard life. My grandmother died when my mother was only 7 years old. And the father remarried and had three more children. But the other woman didn't like the children from the first marriage. That's pretty common. There's a story. In fact I didn't know until about 6 months before my mother died, that she was pretty sick for a couple of years--.she died of congestive heart failure. And I visited my god mother, the first cousin to my mother, and also another cousin from Australia that came here and they talk, reminisce on what happened when they were in Ukraine. And I didn't realize, it was so bad, my mother was abused, one time apparently, she came home, and she had a beautiful voice, she was a really good dancer, really good vocalist, and I guess she was dancing, and her father looked at her and said "You've been with boys?" and she said " No no" but her step mother said " Yea! She was with boys!" He beat her to a pulp. So bad, her grandmother came, picked her up, and nursed her for several months. He really beat her. No wonder why she ran away! That's why she always says it can't be worse than what she had there [In Ukraine]. A lot of people that talk about people the hunger in Ukraine. They were so hungry. People use to bake their own children. You know babies. GS: Are you serious? PS: Yes I am serious! They would bake them and eat their own children! The starvation! Very few people know about the starvation in the Ukraine in the 40s. Because it's not very publicized. 8 or 9 million people died of starvation. Stalin decided he was going to starve out Ukraine, because he was taking over all the farms in the Ukraine. And the Ukraine was the red basket of Europe. They grew the wheat. And they actually would take this wheat and transport this wheat but not give any to the Ukraine people, though they were starving. Because he wanted them to become Russian. And that's when he decided, since he couldn't starve them to death, then what he said he is going to do is assimilate them into the Russian thing by relocating a lot of Russian people into the Ukraine, which can still be seen now. Eastern part of the Ukraine, a lot of Russians, and the Western are people who are 100% Ukraine. But it didn't work. Most are still Ukrainian. Starving didn't work and trying to force to be Russian didn't work. Ukrainians are pretty resilient. Stubborn! GS: When you got to America, did you go to school? PS: Oh yeah. When I got here I was five years old. I went to kindergarten. I was the first in my family to learn any English. My sister, was born soon after. My mother was pregnant on the way over. GS: How did you guys get here? A boat or--? PS: A boat. Like I told you, he was waiting to go to Australia. That's what his first choice was. But when this came, he just jumped on it, the United States. He came directly from New York City, through Ellis Island. Our names are there. GS: I heard the Ellis Island was awful-- PS: Well for them, they were looking for a new life. Everything was exciting to them believe it or not. GS: The American dream? PS: Yeah, the American dream. You're right. GS: Do you believe that was real/true, The American Dream? PS: Yeah, even the people who were already here. The perception was, back in 1969, my father in Poland, the perception in the communist countries, like Ukraine was if you lived in the United States, money grew up trees. Most people actually talked about money growing on trees because what most people did, would send money home, like the Mexicans now. They were able to have stuff, they weren't able to have. If people didn't have relatives in the states, they couldn't have this opportunity. Relatives in the states would send a lot of money back. GS: Just curious, you are wearing a Cornell hat, did you go there? PS: Yeah, for two hours! About 2 months ago, me and my friends from Montreal went to visit. No, I went to Broome College, then got my master's degree in Electrical engineering. Yeah--.but when I came here, we were DPs', they still called us DPs'. I was a DP till 9th grade, people still called us DPs', GS: Was that derogatory or mean to say to someone? PS: It's a displaced person, yeah. It's like someone from Vietnam coming to the States now. They didn't want us here because remember we came from Germany and they thought we were Nazi Germans. They were very nasty to us because the first wave of immigrants, in the 20s and 30s, they already established themselves. And it was hard to establish yourself. Now the second wave of immigrants in the 50s. During that, there were a lot of jobs, they didn't like it but there were a lot of jobs. And what they spent twenty years trying to get, we got in about five years. They were very jealous of that. And now the second generation, which is me, sometimes get very jealous of people coming over now because when they came over they had absolutely nothing. There was no welfare, there was no help. Nobody gave you a penny. But now look what happens. Nobody told you to go to school. So it's a little bit different. It's better the way it is now. But as I said before, I was the first to learn English and it was very hard getting a place to live, an apartment, because all the soldiers were coming back, and they got first priority. And we were DPs' so we were really frowned upon. My father would send me, even though I was only five years old, because I knew some English, to try to get an apartment, because once they saw you were a DP or didn't speak English that was it. So he sent me, I tried negotiating at five years old to get an apartment! It was funny. GS: Were you successful? PS: Yeah actually, we got an apartment. I was basically your interrupter. Because when my father learned English he learned to read and write. My father went through 4th grade. My mother only went through 2nd grade. My mother never learned to read or write in Ukrainian or English. My father was able to speak English, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Czech, Italian, French and of course German. He spoke all those languages. So when we came over, he was able to speak to the Italians, he was able to communicate with them, because he traveled a lot for his job in the black market. He worked for EJ's for about 12 years, my mother worked her whole life there. But then he decided that he wanted to try something different. He became a carpenter. He built a bunch of houses right here in the city. In fact, the house I grew up in, is only about 200 hundred yards that way [points outside the window]. The church wasn't here then, when we lived there. My sister still lives in the original house there. IW: So what kind of work was the Dellapenna Brothers? PS: Oh they did pavements. They broke up concrete. They paved stuff. He ended up with a jackhammer which is probably the worst thing there is. IW: Was there ever a time your dad considered going back to hustling cards and such? PS: Every day of his life, he wanted to go back for the next 45 years. IW: Would he consider doing it in the United States? PS: No no, he could not do that here. Here everything is done above board! In Germany at the time everything was done under the table. So many countries in Europe had so much fraud that was going on. Everything was done under the table. Everything. The big business was done under the table. It's just the way it was. When they come over now, the new immigrants, they are all educated but they come from a place where they had to negotiate for everything under the table. But here you could walk in the store, and anyone could buy a loaf of bread! You just have to have the money. Over there you would have to stand in line for two three four hours to get a loaf of bread. And it was like "OMG, I achieved something today I got a loaf of bread!" In the Ukraine it's still pretty bad but that's just the way it is. So when he came here, no he could not do the black market because everything was above board. He had to have a job. But he just couldn't do it. He was too small for the jackhammer. When you first came in, they always put you with the jackhammer because it was the worst job. But he did that for a while. Next, he worked at EJ's and then he worked with the Power House. EJ had over 30,000 employees. They actually generated their own power. They had what they called the Power House. They generated their own electricity. That's what he did. It was coal, he would shovel coal. He worked three jobs at the time with working with EJ's. He worked at EJ's, he sold cars for a small little used car dealership. Well actually, he mostly repaired the cars but he was in the business of that. He also started doing the building business. So he had three jobs for a long time. He slept three, four hours a night. That's all he slept. And my mother did too. And so do I. I only sleep three, four hours a day, I don't know why but it's just the way it is. GS: I need a solid eight hours of sleep! PS: Yeah, I don't know why. But yeah he was successful. He built three, four house around here. Some in Endicott. These four houses right in the neighborhood here that the built. He was pretty successful at it. At the time you could make money off of it. It's a little harder now. GS: What was the educational system like in the Ukraine, and what are the similarities and differences between the US's and Ukraine's educational systems? PS: Well they didn't really teach you anything because you didn't have access to outside information. It was all run by the government. So even if you got an education, it meant nothing when you came over here because they didn't really teach you anything. They didn't tell you what things were like, like Vietnam. When they came over here, they had a totally different perception of how things were here. Ukraine's still coming over, still ask "why are you paying taxes?" And I say "They provide me services, the police, the fire department, you know!" and they say "Well we don't pay taxes, why would we want to pay taxes?!" It's a whole different perception, you know what I mean. You steal as much as you can. It's interesting to see them come over. But they are definitely paying their taxes now. GS: Do you think your parents raised you more in an American way or Ukrainian way? PS: My father was a very proud American. He was one of the few people I know who said he pays his taxes, proudly. He says "I pay for my privilege to be here in the United States." He was a very proud American but they still taught me how to speak, read, and write Ukrainian. My children do and my grandchildren do. My son married a Ukrainian. She doesn't speak Ukrainian but she goes right here to the same church. My daughter married a Ukrainian too. And my son, taught his son Ukrainian, but he adopted a son from Siberia, just four years ago. They couldn't have any children so they adopted one. And my daughter has two children. They speak perfect Ukrainian and English. I have a funny story. My daughter, and I did not approve of this, decided to speak only Ukrainian till they went to school, so they didn't know any English when they were going to kindergarten. So they sent their child to a catholic school and the school had an interview with the kids and they brought him in, and they were talking and talking, and afterwards, he comes downstairs to his mother, and goes "I don't know what they were talking about, I think they were Polish?!" It was English! He didn't know because he never heard English. They only spoke Ukrainian. But like I said my mother and father were very proud to be Americans. They were Americans first. That's why I think is the big difference between immigrants who come now. Before, immigrants didn't want to be Polish or Ukrainian. They wanted to be American. They didn't want to give up their culture but this is where they wanted to live. They wanted to know the culture. They wanted to be American. But today, immigrants who come, don't want to be American. They want to have their own Spanish communities or Muslim communities. That's the difference between immigrants who came during the Second World War and immigrants who come now. They do not come here to assimilate. Unfortunately, that's what part of the problem is. GS: Do you remember what your first neighborhood was like? PS: Yeah, today it's the ghetto. Basically a ghetto today, or whatever you want to call it. I guess it's not really truly a ghetto, its people with very low income and are on welfare are living there, but the family that moved into Clinton Street, which used to be a main drag there, it was a booming town. It was mostly immigrants that came here, and immigrants what they did, it was not just my father they all everybody knew it was basically same they took care of themselves. They moved to, my father moved to an apartment; they actually, basically cleaned everything out, painted, everything was very nice, except the only problem we had cockroach. And my father was always smarter than the rest of the guys. He would figure out, he went and got all the stuff to get rid of cockroaches and guess where they went? To my neighbor upstairs, my best friend. So I tell you how bad that was, I remember opening the door one time I was upstairs and I walked into the bathroom; the bathroom was very small and it was covered, the walls, ceilings, the bath, everything! Everything was cockroaches. And soon I opened the door because they started running around and then if it wasn't the cockroaches it was the rats. We had a lot of rats. Yeah, one time I had one on my chest I woke up and this rat was sitting on my chest. It was a rat it wasn't a mouse. Yeah, they get bigger and everything. But we get rid of that too. IW: So you've been living here for most of your life, how have you seen the community evolve over the years that you have been here? PS: This general community? IW: Yeah, this general community and maybe this whole town/ city of Binghamton as a whole. PS: Well, we came here everything was booming and up until probably I would say twenty years ago. Maybe I'm starting to -- EJ's closed before then, and then IBM, we still had IBM, we had Linux, we had GE, and there was --- it was a very neighborhood place. People knew -- neighbors knew neighbors. Now I don't see my neighbors because they pull their car in a garage and that's it. In fact when they moved up to our neighborhood, it's not a ritzy neighborhood, it's what you'd call upper middle-class neighborhood. I moved there, and you know, I'm an outdoors person and I park my cars outside. I have two garages but Summer I don't keep them in the garage, I leave them outside. They come in they open the garage pull in and you never see them. So, during the first two months I had people stop and tell me, did you take a look at the street all the way up. I say, "yeah, what" -- do you see a car in the road or in the driveway? -- "I say no", "then what the hell are you doing? Put them in a garage?" I said this was a free country, my father did that "now why are you washing your cars outside?" "Because it's my house" I -- GS: What's wrong with washing your car outside? PS: Pardon me? GS: What's wrong with washing your car outside? PS: Because these people don't wash their cars. Most of the people living in the neighborhood, not any more now, they were all high-level managers, they were making big money. IW: What was that? PS: They were working for IBM; they were high level management. In fact the guy who lived two houses across the street from me was a lab director. And he didn't interact with anyone -- in a way I can't blame him -- because if you're well -- it's like a politician, they have no private life, everything is public. And they, even the head of the lab managers they go want to go --- someone going to put the blame on them -- so that's why they shy away, so that's why it kind of started that way, but now they're all gone because there is no real IBM here anymore, there's no anything here anymore. But eh, the people are still the same. I have my next-door neighbor, been there for twelve years, I've seen him about three times. GS: Ha ha, I heard that's typical of our, I don't know of our generation? But just like people used to know their neighbors very well. PS: Absolutely, when we first came up here we knew everybody who was in our neighborhood and it's only, and now it's getting worse because everyone's got one of those (Indicates Smartphone) and I do too. GS: iPhone? PS: Yeah, this is how we communicate now, we don't have to see somebody. Or I can see him GS: Facetime? And it's helpful PS: Yeah sure heh, yeah GS: Going back you said you graduated from Broome--? PS: Yeah yeah, I graduated here from (illegible) City High School, and then I went to Broome tech for Engineering Science, from there I went to RIT and got my electrical engineer. Then I was out of school for 18 years and went back for a Master's Degree. IW: At RIT? PS: No, at University of Vermont IW: Oh, my sister goes there. PS: That was a great place. GS: So, after college what was your first job? PS: Here at IBM, I had actually when I was at RIT I had graduated in 1969, I was in the co-op program so even though I graduated in June I had 1 semester to go because I had the summer semester. So like 80% of the class including myself accepted a job at Kodak in Rochester, but my fiancée decided last minute she didn't want to live in Rochester so two weeks before I finished my schooling I had to go for a job and when I looked to go for a job, 1 week later I said I had already accepted a job at Kodak but so did 80% of the class. Well, in 1969 was the first time Kodak laid off 500 people, engineers, guess who went first? The new people! I wouldn't have been working there anyway! GS: You got lucky! PS: So I came here in 69, there weren't that many jobs. It was one of the down years. They only had two jobs for engineering. In that time they employed 15,000 people here and there and they only two jobs for engineering. It wasn't engineering it wasn't electrical engineering which is what I'd want. They had two jobs in programming and since I was desperate I was getting married in a week after I finished school. I hated programming, absolutely hated it, but it ended up being what I was doing, well the manager who interviewed me says, "You know we need programming" I said, "Yeah, I don't like it." I was a prat. He says, "Well that's good, you'll how to do it the right way" and he did. He thought I was ambitious and in six months I liked it a lot. And I did very well from there, I moved up the ladder and in the end I actually had the business office reporting to the manager here at IBM and I worked for division presidents and vice presidents and actually uh a lot of high-level people. And the job I had the time was actually, I had control, well not control, I was the guy who made decisions. We had at that time factories worldwide that made boards, we made boards, the kind of boards that you put components on, and we made the boards here that was my business that was what I was involved in. And one time we had 8 factories around the world, actually it was ten, and had Japan, Italy, Scotland, England, Toronto, Sao. Paulo in Brazil and also in Australia and I had responsibility in that time, I was the one who recommended -- we all made panels worldwide and what we tried to do was make sure that if one plant couldn't make the supply then another plant could pick it up it may sound simple on the surface but it is extremely complicated when you're making boards okay because you have different equipment and anyways it was my responsibility to make sure that I spread the load in terms of who builds what and also what cap co they will have and I had the pleasure of every 3 months having the plant managers have a meeting and they all hated each other because that's the way it is; everybody wants to run their plant there the way they want, they don't want anyone to tell them what to do. GS: All ten in one room? PS: Yeah, sometimes we had plant managers that didn't want to sit next to each other, and I had to spend three, four days with them talking about the problems they had, the things we had to do and everything. So we spent three days arguing, and the 4th day I'd break down the action plan that they were never going to do, and then I had to follow up on it. But that's the way it was. It's true that in any industry you're in, you get more than two people, you've already got too many beings. That's the way it is. GS: You said before that you got married straight out of college? PS: Yeah, I got engaged and I got married two weeks out of college. GS: Was that a normal thing? PS: At that time yeah, a lot of guys in my class were getting married before they graduated, most people were married by the time they were 25. IW: So how old were you when you got married? PS: 23, my wife was only what? She had just turned 20, and my wife was from Poland, but she was Ukrainian. Unfortunately, she passed away 10 years ago but she was Ukrainian and I met her through a next-door neighbor at the house over here because it was her uncle and he sponsored him to come from Poland, they lived in the same, believe it or not, it's funny because her parents and my father's parents lived two houses apart in south eastern Poland. They used to be Poland/Ukraine and after the war they decided they wanted to move people around, they moved my wife's family from where they were in Southeast all the way to Germany in the West Side. They relocated a lot of people because what is happening is when the Germans came in they took over most of everything, you see on television with Jewish people, they came in and took everything from them, it was really true and there were a lot of Jewish people in Ukraine and also in Poland and those people lost it all, and after the war they got that back but they didn't give that back to the Jewish people, her parents ended up in a house that used to be Jewish. And near the German border, and she was 16 when she came over, and I met her fell in love and married her. GS: When did you have your first kiss? PS: Uhm, 1970 GS: Oh, and also you graduated in college in 1969 and you also took a trip with your dad in 1969? PS: Yeah, just before my wedding, actually took time off from school. He wouldn't go alone. I wasn't that interested in going and when I went there it wasn't really a great time, because I used to smoke then and every time I reached into my pocket everyone got up because they thought I was throwing money at them, so that's the gut truth. Because they thought, money grew on trees and at that time when we used to go it was not true of us, anybody went back, even sometimes today, they expect you to bring you a lot of gifts and money that what the expectation was and while you were there you paid for everything for them, for the whole family we had a big reunion one night before we left for home, and there must have 70, 80 people, we paid for everything? IW: Was this because of the idea that they thought that like Americans had a lot of money that grows on trees? PS: Yes absolutely, there was women, the men would take, where we were in Poland where my grandfather lived, we were right near where they made crystal, you know crystal? And they made all kinds of bowls and that kind of stuff sugar bowls and all that. We wanted to bring crystal back because it's very good crystal, we didn't want perfect stuff because that's really expensive, but they have stuffed that a little bit chipped, but you can't see it, we went to the factory and that were we bought up and they found out we were interested in it so all the men rushed, they were stealing their wives sugar bowls and bringing it to my grandfather's house. And it was nice enough we bought it we bought a lot of stuff, then the woman started coming in all upset, and we gave them all back GS: Well that's nice of you at least. PS: Well it wasn't really nice what the husbands did. IW: Wait, so you bought all these sugar bowls and you gave it away. PS: We gave it back to these people, because she came and say that's mine GS: Did you get your money back? PS: No! GS: What? PS: No, it wasn't fair what they did but it wasn't expensive, we were only talking four, five dollars. Okay, the big bowls maybe 50, 60 dollars and they are probably worth four, five hundred dollars here. The stuff we brought was small stuff. We said we'll take it. IW: Four or five dollars might have been more to them than it is to you here, inflation exchange rates PS: Oh at that time 4, 5 dollars was a lot of money. You were getting 150 Zloty to every dollar and that was their dollar, the Zloty. So when we had the get together it cost us 150 bucks, it was an incredible night, we had a band and everything. Money went a long way there. And that the other reason they thought we were so rich, because they thought that our dollar went as far as our dollar in their country, and it didn't! Not even close ha ha! GS: So your expectations for America or I guess your parents’ expectations, were they met? PS: Yeah, absolutely, It's the greatest country in the world, I to me I carry the same pride that my father did. IW: So you have a German Citizenship, right, you still have it? PS: No no I was a German citizen but when I became a US citizen I uh don't have the uh. IW: You didn't have a dual citizenship? PS: I could if I wanted to apply for it, I don't need it, what do I need it for. IW: German citizenship, it's the best passport to have in the world for traveling. PS: I traveled all around the world with American passport it was okay. I did a lot of traveling for my company so I did a lot of traveling. GS: You said your father instilled like other things in you? PS: Yeah, a couple of things, for one thing honesty, because uh, he worked in business and he got stiffed quite a few times because he was building and they had to pay him and they wouldn't pay him and he had to wait wait wait and try to get the money back and there were some times with deals and somebody promised one thing and it didn't work out and he always told me one thing in business " don't ever lie but don't always tell the truth" You don't have to tell them everything he said, but don't lie. Soon as you lie, the very first time you are never going to trust anybody because you think they will do the same thing if you think about it. The other thing is that this country we came to here he says you have to vote and pay taxes and have to respect his country because it is the greatest place in the world and he also said education, I worked with him, he was a builder and worked with him in the summers, I was twelve years when I started it and I hated it. He says this is why you are working with me, to go to school and get a better job, which is what I did. GS: Exactly, so there were no child labor laws yet or were there? PS: Pardon me? GS: So you were working at 12 years old, there were no child-- PS: Oh there were child laws but nothing was enforced, now everything, they try to enforce everything, in today's world it doesn't make a difference whatever country, we have more ways in capacity and force! It's true there's a law for everything. But. they paid me next to nothing, because there were only three of us working together at that time and most of the time I was looking for the tools because that what carpenters do, they could not find their tools because they leave it in one room, when they are working and go to another room and cannot find it again, my life was spent finding their tools, the other half building bricks I had to mix the mortar, and deliver the bricks on the scaffolding to continue the building. IW: So your father was coming from a country where you couldn't really be politically active, so how did he react to being in a whole new country where he is free to vote, free to-- PS: It took him a long to be comfortable with it because especially in Ukraine, it wasn't as bad remember Poland was a satellite country, Ukraine was directly under Russian rule. Polish, some people actually owned stuff, okay, in Ukraine there wasn't anybody who owned anything. They were used to a totally different life, and in fact, okay, in the communist countries like Ukraine people actually spited each other. What you read about and heard about is absolutely true. A neighbor would say "hey this guy is not a communist because he is communicating with his sister in the United States and is saying bad things about us". So, they turn him in -- disappear. GS: Oh my god! PS: Yeah in fact when my mother tried to establish with her brother relationship, the one that was alive, I tried, and he'd tell us I'm part of communist party please do not communicate with me anymore because I'll get in trouble. And so we never communicated with him and he died. Yeah that's the way it was in Ukraine, in Poland it was a little better, so when he came here voting was very foreign to him, if you got to vote, anything like a vote it was only one candidate, one party one candidate. So, they were a little confused first when they came here. But, I guess that was because he was so confused about voter too because he says the first time in his life he had the chance to choose but if, whether it did any good or not was not important, the important part was that you could cast a vote for who though would be most appropriate leader, in fact, a lot of them came over there. The funny part is, my wife's mother, my bushka -- the last bushka we had, she was a real -- a real character. She called me up one time, after the election, it was two days after the election. You know what? "They called me from the voting place" she says and they asked me to come down. I said oh they did? Why? She says "they needed one more vote for Bush to win, and they picked me, so I went down and voted Bush president. She really believed it! Yeah, she was exercising the right to vote and guess what? She made a big difference. It's a funny story. It's true she really believed it. I never told her it wasn't true. GS: I just have random question; do you have any artifacts from your family or native country that hold any meaning to you? PS: Well actually, the only -- well I got one thing from my father here -- this anchor (indicates anchor necklace) see this uh GS: Anchor? That's from your father? PS: That's all he left me and he left me this and this my wife bought for me this cross, and she's gone and this my mother bought for me so I carry this wherever I go. But the only things they had were wedding rings, the wedding rings were metal, they didn't really leave me anything you can called "passed down" or anything. There was nothing of value. GS: What did you bring? Do you remember anything specific that you brought in that box from Ukraine to America? PS: Oh, you mean Germany to America? The only thing I remember is the box my father brought because we used it as a table, I don't really remember much of what was in there because it was just clothes basically, that all we brought. There wasn't any German money in there because after the war, the money that he made, that made him so rich, was worth nothing after the war. He said that after the war you would have to take a wheelbarrow full of money to buy a loaf of bread. GS: Oh yeah I've seen pictures of that. IW: It's called hyperinflation. PS: And it was true. It got that bad because it got totally devalued and was worth nothing. IW: The German mark was it? PS: Yeah, the German mark. GS: Do you remember feeling poor? PS: Huh? GS: When you were a kid do you remember feeling like you had less? Or like were you happy? PS: The people I interacted with --- it felt normal -- everything was normal. In fact, those people I work with most of them I work known my whole life. GS: That's amazing! PS: In fact tomorrow, I started -- well 17 years ago I started a little group -- believe it or not a lot of us lived here we all got education all the people went to the church school they all went and we worked and got jobs most of us moved away for at least a portion of our lives, a lot of us came back. Right back to Binghamton. We have been fishing together for 35 years. My best friends are right down stairs. GS: That you have known your whole life? PS: Yeah, I and I have a little group that we get together tomorrow, right underneath this room. It used to be our club -- a club we used to run -- we had alcohol and stuff but we closed that a long time ago. There were 16 of us and we had known each other since we were 5 years old, every one of us, and we all came back. We had all lived sometime in a different city and now we are all back and it's amazing. You know, we meet once a month, we have a meal together, we bullshit, we play cards, and then we drink and enjoy the company immensely. And the interesting part is it is almost impossible for somebody not to show up. They enjoy it so much, including myself, that we make sure that we come. I get almost 100% attendance. Take care of the food -- I take care of the food-- but I have other people do stuff. We have our own logo. We call ourselves UKEBUMS. GS: UKEBUMS? IW: What does that mean? PS: UKE for Ukraine, BUMS for -- there is another group that my best friend in Montreal runs called just BUMS. They are also Ukrainian. BUMS stands for benevolent union of master sportsman, so Ukrainian benevolent union of master sportsmen. It started out fishing but we have guys what our golfers now -- half of them are fishers but then we accepted other people too so there are golfers and a few people who are big into hockey and that kind of stuff but it's sportsmen, kind of cool BUMS. IW: It seems like the church is like the center of social life in this community. The Church was their whole social life, when we were growing up. We were in walking distance, the church was in Binghamton - it was in walking distance and I went to Ukrainian school religion class and --- something we were there all the time -- church -- it was our social network and that how I got to know all these people, we did very well, we all hung together and now were all back together again. IW: It must be a very strong connection if after all those years people still come back to their hometown. PS: Yeah a lot of people come to visit, Christmas and Easter, church is full, people come back. GS: So Binghamton is like your home. PS: It's a home yeah. We grew up. I think I take a lot of pride helping out the church -- to be honest with you -- they're the one who kind of molded me into who I am. My parents had a lot to do with it but the church probably had more to do with it because I spent more of my time there than with my parents. How much time do you spend with you parents anyways? When you're smaller you have no one else to care for you then you're totally dependent. After that-- you know -- so -- these people I spent more time with them than my parents. GS: That's so true for me too. PS: They are lovely people, they all come from the same kind of --- we all have the same kind of principles -- we all love this country we are all very proud Americans. And we are proud of our heritage too. But we are American Ukrainian, not Ukrainian American. GS: I like that. PS: That's what we are. GS: Thank you so much! That's perfect. IW: Right on the hour mark, wow! Thank you! PS: It's been that long, oh my gosh ha ha. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Peter Solecky Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Solecky, Peter ; Samaniego, Gabrielle ; Wolf, Isaac Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Peter Solecky was born in 1946 in Munich, Germany. His mother, father, and two younger siblings came to America in 1951. They traveled through Ellis Island (their signatures are still there to this day) and eventually settled in Binghamton, New York. Solecky attended Rochester Institute of Technology and graduated with a bachelor’s degree in engineering science in 1969. He later returned to school for his master’s degree in Electrical Engineering at the University of Vermont. He lives in Binghamton, NY with his wife and two children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Peter Solecky.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-10 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:11 Subject The topic of the resource Solecky, Peter.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/33fb307a69f2ffdbe8a82db4dbe70f65.m4a c398f41ccb42a7a33adf0888faffb2cf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Allan Gendelman Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sergey Gendelman Biographical Text Sergey Gendelman is a first generation immigrant in America. His roots are in Moscow, Russia. He received a degree in electronic engineering. He went on to further his education in the Soviet Union as a programmer. He immigrated to New York City in 1993 and he worked a few odd jobs until becoming a programmer once again. He continues to live in New York City area with his family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 61:26 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Gendelman, Sergey Peter.--Interviews; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; <span>Communism and culture--Soviet Union;&nbsp;</span>Russian; Jews; Migrations; Ethnic identity; City and town life--New York (State)--New York Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SergeyGendelman.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Russians; Immigrants; Soviet Union Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Ukrainian Oral History Project</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Sergey Gendelman</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Allan Gendelman</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Transcriber: Allan Gendelman</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:41am</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview Setting: 2636 East 23rd Apt. #2 Brooklyn, NY 11235</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">(Start of Interview)</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Sergey Gendelman: I was born in 1959 in Moscow in Soviet Union.</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Allan Gendelman: And uhh, (is it, is it) how was your childhood? Happy memories? Good memories? Or more of a negative?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: My childhood, it's mostly happy. Probably everybody's childhood—when you are a kid, it's, everything is good. You have parents, you have someplace to live, you have food. So you are happy. You have friends to play with. So, you are happy.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So, tell me a little bit more about that. Where exactly did you live? Which neighborhood did you live in?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Okay, it was Moscow. It's the capital of the Soviet Union. It was not downtown, but it's some sleepy area of Moscow.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So, pretty quiet?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, pretty quiet. It used to be pretty safe. So, we could walk around and play around by ourselves, without parents. Just with friends. We have yards around our houses. I mean, not houses, buildings. Most of us have buildings. So, we have yards. And we have place to play. So that's how we spent our childhood.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It was more of an urban setting, right? More of a city, not a village, right?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, it's a real city. Moscow is a huge city. It's just one of the sleepy areas of Moscow.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Sort of how Brooklyn is to Manhattan? We all live in New York, but Brooklyn is a little bit quieter.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, kind of.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So, tell me about the building you grew up in. How was that? Describe it to me physically. How big was it? How many floors? What did it look like?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Okay, it was a five story brick building. No elevators. We lived on the third floor. We had two rooms. When we moved in—we got lucky, we moved in a separate apartment, because most of the people lived a few families together in the same apartment, just one room, and shared a kitchen, and bathroom, and other common places. So we got lucky when I was born, my family got a new apartment. It was two rooms, and it was six of us living in two rooms.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So are you saying that at some point you did live in a communal area where you had to share the kitchen and other amenities?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Actually for myself, personally, I had never lived with other people in the same apartment. So, as I said, I got lucky. We got, we got a new apartment when I was born. It was too many people for our old apartment. It’s, so—and six people in two rooms. I don't know how—by Americans’ measure, it’s probably still too much.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It’s actually interesting that you said that. So you didn’t grow up in a communal setting, and you’re saying that’s how people usually lived?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, I would say 50 to 60% of the people live together, a few families to the same apartment.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So would you say you living in an apartment that you didn't have to share with other families in a non-communal setting—do you think that had any impact on you, growing up? Because I would think that if everyone else is growing up with other families, maybe the way they—not just the way they lived, but the way they grew up, the principles they grew up with could be different.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It’s difficult to say, because I didn’t have, actually, other way to live, so— So it's the only way I— I don't know what to say. I never lived in other conditions, so it’s what it is.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: That’s true. Well, do you think you grew up a little bit differently than the people around you? The kids around you?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I would say that my condition was a little bit better than some of my friends. I visit them, my friends, and we play together, and I saw how they lived. My condition, it was better. Yeah.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Not just conditions, really. What I'm really asking is—so, you're my father, I've obviously known you growing up, and it seems apparent that—your friends and a lot of your family stayed in the Soviet Union and Russia, and you moved. And from what I know, this is something you always wanted to do growing up.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, it’s— At my childhood, when I was a teenager, I was thinking I am living in the best country in the world. So, I didn't have any problems when I was a teenager. It happened later, when I understand what's going around me in other countries. And it's—most of what we know is just a lie, and it's not true, and I'm pushed to do what I don't want to do. And my understanding, it happened, probably, when I was about 15, 16, when I got more information outside. It was difficult to get this information back then. I was trying to listen to some foreign radio. It was not allowed. First I started listening because of music—foreign music—I loved it and I love it now as well. And also I listened to the news and I started thinking, “Most of what our government said to us, it's not true.” It's how it started, my different view on my country. But when I was a child, I was thinking, “I'm living in the best country in the world.” It was my belief.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You said you were pushed to do something you didn't want to do. What do you mean by that?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Uhh, okay. When you are in school, you have to be in Pioneer Organization. It's like Young Communist [League], you have to do certain things—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Like Boy Scouts?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, like Boy Scouts. But it's not your choice. You have to do it. Otherwise you will be like—umm, umm.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: A traitor?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, a traitor. So it's going to be much more difficult for you to be in school, to be in a community. Like all people. And you will not have any future, if you do not follow what everyone else is following.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Your career choice, your school choice, the profession you chose to pursue in the Soviet Union: was that largely your choice, or do you feel like you were pushed to do that?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, it was my choice, but it was a choice with a lot of limitation for some reason. First limitation because I am a Jew. And not all colleges accepted Jew people. And if they accept, it was just for a limited percentage, very very limited percentage. So—and you have to be a Young Communist to have more possibility to get into college. So it was my choice, but it was limited choice.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Why don't you tell me about what you did pursue? What did you actually study and what did you end up working as?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I graduated as an engineer. Electronic engineer. So what I studied was a lot of math, a lot of physics. Automatization systems. What else—and of course I have to learn some Communist Party history, and that was probably the most important subject in college. There's a special test for that, and if you fail it, you will not get a diploma of engineer.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And what did you go on to become? What was your job?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: My first job, I was a construction engineer, so I developed some schematics for automatization system for agriculture. So I was obligated to work three years for some company I was sent to work. So there were some choices, but not many, and I had to work for at least for three years. After three years, I had a choice to quit and find a new job. So I quit, and moved to a new job in the field.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What was that field?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It was—I just—I was, special tools for auto manufacturing. It was electronic devices that I had to adjust. It was like mini computers so it was more interesting for me. So it's like work in field. I was not sitting in one place, but I was moving to different companies to help them to adjust the tools.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Was that the last job you held in the Soviet Union, or were there more?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, I had then—when computers started to introduce in our environment, I started learning programming. It's how I started programming. So my last job was programmer, so it helped that when I moved to the United States I had some background to start with.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I want to come back to that, I want to ask you right now about your second job. You said you had to travel a lot for that job, right?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, I travelled in Soviet Union—cities, towns, different places, yeah.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So outside of Russia, right?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Mmm…Outside of—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: —the Russian Federation.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Outside of the Russian Federation, yeah. Yes.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Was that common? Were people allowed to do that, or was that a special privilege that you got?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, you could travel anyplace in the Soviet Union. What wasn't allowed was to travel outside of the Soviet Union. It was a real privilege, so to leave the country for travel, for business, for whatever it is, so it’s— So you couldn't just go wherever you want to go outside the Soviet Union. You had to get an out visa, not a visa to get in the country, but a visa to get out of the Soviet Union. And it was really difficult. Very limited people could do it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Would you say it was feasible—would you say it was possible for people to travel the way you traveled for your work? Or were they too impoverished to do that?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Uhh—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Because—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, people travel, but what we earned, it was, it wasn’t big money. It’s money to feed yourself and your family, and it’s what you mostly spend your money for. I said I lived in Moscow in Soviet Union, and Moscow is absolutely different than other Soviet Union territories, because it was difficult in Moscow to buy some foods, but there still—there are foods in stores in Moscow. But from other regions, people come to Moscow to buy something: clothes, food, something. It was much much more difficult to buy something outside of Moscow. I was lucky, again, to be living in Moscow, not other regions of Soviet Union. I got to see how other people lived. Sometimes people were happy when I could come and bring some food with me and share it with people. They were very happy.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Tell me more about that. Did you learn anything while you travelled and you got to see how other people lived? Did that impact you in any other way?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, I saw people live much, much worse than people in Moscow and it—sometimes it was real poverty. Because in Moscow, I didn't see actual poverty. Everything was—most of, 90% of the people was—equally, I would say, not poor, but they couldn't afford any car, they couldn't buy any apartment, any—that was just, government could just give it to people, and if you don't have a good apartment or any… Everyone had an apartment. It wasn't, maybe, good, it was maybe overcrowded, and people didn't have money to buy something new; and a car was…a real, real luxury, to use a car. But you had public transportation, it was pretty much good, and I didn’t think—I never thought that I’d need a car, because it was beyond my possibilities, beyond my actual wishes. It’s not—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You're saying it was too luxurious?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, yeah. It was too luxurious. Only people who were in crime could buy a car. Or some famous people—academics, famous artists, some—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You're saying criminals could buy cars.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And criminals, yeah. Criminals could always buy cars, yeah. Because they steal something from other people. Or people actually who work for, actually, for government, or for Communist Party. They had more possibilities to buy a car.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What did you—so you’re saying you saw a lot of poverty when you left Moscow. Do you have any particular memories of your travels, any particular story you want to tell? Do you remember what kind of foods you ate, something like that? Something unique that you encountered that you didn't before?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Some trips were very good. I would say Georgia, I remember, it was a very nice country, very nice people, very kind. And so, food was interesting, it was different. It was a nice experience to go to Tbilisi, it was the capital of Georgia. But some region was very poor and I couldn't buy anything in stores and I had to use some cafeteria in places I worked for, and it’s, it was, I couldn't eat what they fed me. So I was trying to do my job, instead of a week, let’s say for two days, and just leave, because it was not a pleasure to stay there, so I worked fifteen hours a day, just to leave the place.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What did you eat in the cafeterias? Describe the food.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Oh, ok. I don't know. It was some cutlets. And okay, if you don't have bread to, to not taste of the—or smell whatever you're eating—I don't know what it was, but it was something not edible. And always, when I went on a trip, I always had some food with me, so I could have my breakfast in the hotel room, so—and some late dinner in hotel again. So in some places, I just didn’t eat anything at all during the day—just worked for twelve, fifteen hours and ate just early morning using my own food I brought from Moscow, and late, late dinner. And just, my dream was just finish the job I had to do and just leave it, leave this town I stay in.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How long did you do that job for? How long did that last for?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It's about six years, I’d say. Six or seven years. It was, it's not for the same company. I used to work for one company, for—then I moved to other company, this offers better conditions, but still the same kind of job. And then I move to some plant and I start actually to study programming, and that's how I start as a programmer. I start actually fixing computers first, learning the hardware part of the computers, and then study programming and converted to programmer.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What made you do that job for six years? It sounds like you weren’t happy doing it—what was the motivation? Did you not have the opportunity to find another source of employment, or did you just not think about moving?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, I didn’t say I wasn't happy about the job. I was happy about the job; I liked it. But I wasn’t happy in some places I visited to do my job, just because of conditions I lived in. But the job itself, I liked it, it was good.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Why don't you tell me about how you got started in programming? So you said you started studying hardware first, but then you moved on to learning programming?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, it was—I was working for some company to—adjusting their tools for, uh—tools with controllers. So it was an electronic job. And then the company start—they created a department of, a computer department—it just started in Soviet Union. So—and I was, at the beginning, I actually helped the company to choose computers, to buy computers, to set it up, and fix if any problem happened. And parallel, I learned how to program, and I went to college again to get some programmer diploma, but it’s at the same time I was working for the company. So, and that's how I started programming. When I come to America, actually it’s not the same kind of programming I did in the Soviet Union, but—and I also went to school to learn something new, and—but it was much, much easier for me to be in the field, because I already had some basic knowledge and knew how to program.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you remember exactly how you started programming? Did you just discover it? Did someone tell you about it? Do you remember the day you decided to become a programmer?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, it wasn't a day. It was, as I said, I just started to know something new, and it’s, I learned more and more and more, and I did some projects creating some software. And at the same time, I was responsible for supporting computer hardware, so I did both jobs, so that’s how my knowledge—that's how I gained more knowledge. So I create more—some, create more software.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Was it someone in particular that opened you up to programming? No?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Not really, as I remember, no.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You were just interested in it?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It was interesting. It was something new to learn, so I started learning.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You said you went to school, and you worked at the same time when you were learning programming. Was that challenging? Because I would imagine having a full time job and going to school is always challenging.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Oh, I don't remember if it was challenging; it was interesting. It was about thirty years ago, so I don't remember. It was interesting. When you are interested in something, it's much easier to be successful in it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you said you came to America and you eventually became a programmer, and you said it was a lot easier for you to do that because you were in the Soviet Union and you already had some sort of training, some sort of education, some sort of experience in the field. Did you come to the United States and right away become a programmer?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It actually was my third job. I am not, um—when I was a student in United States, I did some jobs, you know, just temporary jobs, just to feed my family. And you just was born, and so—and so we didn't have much money, so I had to do some temporary job just for small money, but it was very helpful.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Tell me about those jobs. Tell me about those temporary jobs.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It's something, I distributed some advertising—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: —flyers?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: —Flyers, yeah. What else? I can't remember now. [Pause] Ok, it’s—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You don't recall?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I don’t recall, it was— It wasn't the happiest days of my life.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, you didn’t like it, so you—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It was difficult and it was, I mean, not what I would like to do. It’s—it wasn't the reason I came to America, to do this kind of job. But it was a good experience, to—and it's what I had to do for my family. So it’s not good, it’s not bad, it’s what happened. I knew immigration is—when I moved from Soviet Union to America, I knew it was difficult to absorb a new style of life and, uh, to start speaking in English, it was most difficult, probably. To understand what people are saying, to speak myself, to explain what I would like to other people. So it was difficult times. But I did not regret I did this move.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you are saying the language barrier is what was the most difficult part—not understanding what people are saying.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Right.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Was there anything else that was difficult? Was it culturally different? Were people different here than they were back where you were from, from the Soviet Union? Or are people just people everywhere?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Most of the people are people, as you said, everywhere. And I had my close relative here, my uncle, who helped me a lot with—he explained to me a lot of things, what’s going on around me. And so for all my questions I could call him and ask, “What does it mean? What should I do with it?” and how to behave. So I was open for new relationships, for new people, for everything new, so—so, I was open for it, so I accepted it as it is.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Was there any cultural shock? Anything in particular that surprised you?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Usually when Soviet people come to America first, what they’re shocked about is when they go to stores and see how many foods in stores and how many clothes in store—it’s mostly what [made] people shocked. It didn’t shock me because I was prepared for this, because I had some information from people who lived here already, so—and I communicate with them before I left the Soviet Union—so I was prepared for that. It was interesting, but I wasn't shocked. What actually—I was not shocked, but very pleased with, is that people smile, on the streets, on transportation. Whatever you are going to, you see people smile to you. Not as in the Soviet Union. It's not in the behavior of Soviet people. Probably still they don't smile.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Smiling. That was big for you?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah. Smiling was actually the most—most—[pause]</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: —positive—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG: </b><span style="font-weight: 400;">&nbsp;—positive, yeah, impression that I got.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So was it your first time in America when you immigrated here? Did you immigrate straight here and this was the first time you’d ever been here, or had you been here previously?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, first I went here in 1990, just for travel. My uncle sent a special invitation to me, because otherwise I couldn't leave Soviet Union. It was already opened up by Gorbachev for people to go around the world, but it was still limited, so you had to get some special invitation from other country to be allowed to go. So my first experience, I went in 1990, I said. So I spent a month here in America, in New York. My cousin got me around to other countries—other cities—so I fell in love with America, so I decided, “so I am going to leave Soviet Union for United States.”</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Was it—that month you spent in America, was it like you expected it to be from the information that you got from the American radios in the Soviet Union, or were you surprised at the living conditions? Tell me. Tell me how it was for you.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Surprised? Actually, I already had information, so I wasn't surprised too much, but I loved New York itself, I mean, Manhattan, how it’s—I was happy to see it with my own eyes, not on television, or some other image, some other sources. But I was—maybe I was shocked when I saw, first time, Manhattan, so I was—felt in love. I came as a tourist, so it's different when you live in a country and when you just travel. You see a different side of life. Everything was good. People were nice to me. It was a pleasure. I knew if I am going to move in permanently here, it will not be so easy to be part of this country, these people. So I knew it was challenging, but I was ready for that, for these difficulties. When I moved in permanently, I was open for all difficulties I met.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Why do you say that you knew it was going to be challenging? What led you to believe it was going to be challenging?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Because my English was very, very, very limited, and I knew to do some job I had to speak fluently—I had to understand people, what they’re saying, what I’m supposed to do, as my responsibility of some job. So I knew it's always difficult, because when you live in one country and everything is familiar to you, and people speak the same language and you knew all habits, everything around, everything, how it works… New country, absolutely new country with different culture, different people, language and everything—it's always difficult. But it's a good experience. But I'm happy you don't have to get through it because you were born here. It's your country—and it's my country too, but it’s your country from the beginning, and you don't have to get used to it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What kind of other difficulties did you face when you came here? Was poverty an issue?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You mean in the United States?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: In the United States, yeah.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Poverty…I mean, yeah. I had some money to pay for my rent and for food, but I learned how to do shopping so I knew where sales, I knew how to buy things so I could save a lot of money by doing it. I didn't have a lot of money to buy any extra, it was okay. I knew it was just temporary for some period of time. My goal is to find a job I would like and everything would be changed.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When you came here, you grew up eating kotleta and borscht and all of that really Russian Soviet Union stuff. Is there anything that you came here and you were really—you really liked or you really didn't like, out of the foods?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Actually, I like to try new food. First when I saw sushi, I couldn’t try it because I'd never eaten raw fish before and it was really strange for me. But my friends showed me how to eat it, so I tried and I didn’t like it, first time. In some period of time I tried it again, and it was a little bit better. And now I love it. I miss it if I don't have it for a couple of weeks. So I miss it. So, I love to have—to go to different restaurants to try new foods, and to different country and different style food. So—I’m open for that, I like it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did you buy any frozen food, anything in the supermarkets? I mean, if I lived in a country where I was really limited in the cuisine I had and the kind of food that I had, and I came to a country where there’s all these different foods, I think I would just buy everything. I would just want to try all this strange new food. Is there anything—did you do that? Or did you only try to buy food that you knew or were familiar with?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I buy mostly what I knew. I don't buy new food because I don't know how to cook it—maybe very rare, some… But, most of—to try new food, I just go to some specific restaurant: Turkish, Lebanon, or maybe Indian. So—and actually, with Indian food as well, when I first tried, first time trying Indian food, I couldn't eat it. It was very spicy, I couldn't eat it at all. But now, again, I get used to it, and time to time I like to have Indian food. But actually I'm still trying, as I start—when I came to this country and I tried to save money for shopping, I still do it. I try to save money and to buy most of the food on sale and save this money for, actually, what I really would like to do all my years when I was living in the Soviet Union, to travel to different countries. Because I was real, real, actually limited to see the world. Now I enjoy it, and so I’m trying to explore as many countries as I could.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, we just came back from Italy, so it’s interesting that you said that. We do travel a lot. Do you think that the way you’re living your life now—what you just described, saving every penny that you can so you can get the things that you want—do you think that's something uniquely Russian? Do you think that’s something you do because you were taught to do it? To save every penny? Because from my experiences here in the US, people aren't so conscious about their spending, what they spend their money on, and they don't wait for sales. If they want food, they just go buy it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I don't know why I do it. Maybe it's in my nature to not overpay for something if I could actually save money. It's like for me, sometimes it's like sport, you know? If I see something I could buy for half of the price, it’s— So I'm looking for bargains. I prefer to visit two, three different supermarkets to buy food on sale and save money than just go in one place and buy whatever I see. I don't know. Maybe it's in my nature. Not because I’m from Soviet Union, because I know other Russian people, and they actually don't save money for food and buy whatever they want to.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I guess it depends from person to person.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, I think so.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So, you came here. You handed out flyers. You didn't live in the best conditions. What was the first apartment that you lived in? Or the first place that you lived in?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It was an interesting experience. We just start looking, and first we stay with our relatives for a couple of weeks and start looking for apartments, and what we saw, it was killing us. It was dirty, it was with cockroaches and with—it was something with awful smell. Actually, it’s because we had little money to spend, we were looking for very, very cheap apartments, so— My wife was crying and she said, "Okay, I would like to go back. I don't want to live in those apartments." Because in Moscow, it was a small apartment, but it was clean—it belongs to us so we care about that and it was clean, and okay, it smelled good— Okay, but when we saw an apartment which was just renovated, and that it was clean and no smell, and so we loved—it was small, it just was studio with kitchen. So we loved it and we moved in—it was just two of us, it was more than enough for two of us. It was in the Bay Ridge area, a good safe area in 1993 when we moved to America. So that's how we started. But then, when you were born, we had to move to a new apartment, a little bit bigger. But I already worked at that time, so we could afford it. It wasn’t a good apartment. It was two bedrooms, a two bedroom apartment, but it was small and not as good. So in a few years, I keep working, and we moved again to a much better apartment, still in Bay Ridge.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And you liked that apartment?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, we liked that apartment. And the best part of that was the view. It was a view on Downtown and Midtown Manhattan, Statue of Liberty and Hudson River, and the view was just amazing. It was so I could look at it every day for a long time, and it always was different because of how the sun is—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: —shining—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: —shining through, yeah, and nighttime, so it was very good. And I was—so enjoyed it, probably, until 9/11. Because when I saw everything that happened on 9/11, it actually really changed me. Because I had been working very, very close to the Twin buildings. I saw it just from a very, very close distance, how it happened, how the building collapsed, how the planes hit the buildings. It was a nightmare.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You worked close by there?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah. Not quite about a mile, I would say less than half a mile from the Twin buildings.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Would you say that changed your view of America in any way?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Not America itself, but something really changed. It was like, you know, you lived in some sunny conditions, and then clouds came. It's like everything is the same, but something is different, and you couldn't explain, actually, what’s changed, but it was.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did it impact your view of how safe you felt in America? Did you feel safer before 9/11, or the same? Do you still feel safe? Do you feel safe?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Pretty much, I do feel safe, but before 9/11 I didn't think about safety, actually. The Bay Ridge area was very safe, and so we could walk around at midnight without, actually, to be afraid of people around us. Because in—when I left Russia, when I left Moscow, it was the 90s and it was very, very dangerous there, so—it was very dangerous just to walk around. If you don't have to go out, it's better to not go out. But when I came to America, it was very—I was so impressed, I don’t feel any dangers around me.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did you—so you had this really safe view of America, and you could go out and it was much safer in your eyes than it was in Russia when you left. Did you think about going back to Russia to live there because—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, never.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Never?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Never again.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You didn’t feel like the dangers of another terrorist attack warranted going back?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Whatever could happen, now it's my country. Whatever will happen, now I will be part of that. So I'm not thinking about to go back, whatever it is.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So would you say you identify as an American now? If someone asked you what you were, would you say you’re an American, or—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Definitely.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You wouldn't say you were a Russian?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Nope.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Interesting.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: My roots are Russian. I still speak in Russian, that’s…[inaudible]</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What do you think it means to be an American? What is an American?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I don't know.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What does it mean to you?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I just live in a great country. It doesn't mean I like everything that is happening to our country, and it could be much better, and it's probably getting worse than it used to be in the 90s. But I believe in America and I believe we could—but I believe we could do better.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you think it's worse than when you came here?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What do you mean?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You said you think it's not as good as in the 90s, right?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, and because of, it's because of economy, because of, actually—probably it started from 9/11. It's how the country started changing, and—we are not so open as we used to be, and that's what I liked about America.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What do you mean by open?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Open to—ok, open to do things we would like to do. We are not limited to anything by, but by law only. And—so I understand, some things are done for our safety, and I understand it, and I agree with it. But it’s—it is different now, than it used to be. So when you go somewhere, and now when you—we just came from Italy, and when you go to airport, it’s a few checkpoints when security screens you. I remember days when we just go to the airport and sit on the plane and go to another country without any screening. As I said, I agree it needs to be done and it's for our safety, but it’s different.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you're saying when you went to the airport before 9/11, there wasn't any security? There was no—?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: There was security, but they didn’t check actually your luggage. They didn’t check you, so you just pass by on your flight.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Really?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yep.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you feel confident in America’s future. Do you feel like I will have as future—a good as life as you did? As better, or worse?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I don't know. It looks to me that the labor market is much worse than it used to be in the 90s. And I see a lot of young people who graduated in colleges, they couldn't find a job. But I believe America could change something about that. To create more workplaces—so for your future, as well.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, a lot of people in my school, in my college, they are very cynical about their futures, and from what we talk about in class, a lot of them feel like their futures won't be as good as their parents’. Granted, their parents, a lot of them weren’t immigrants like mine, so they didn't have to go through as rough conditions, but they don't seem as hopeful for the future as perhaps I do, or you do. Do you think I'll earn as much as you, or have as good a job as you? Do you feel confident in that?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Not so comfortable. Not so confident. But I still believe in America. America could do something about that. I believe in it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you think hard work—if you work hard in America, you will be successful here? That you will achieve your dreams here?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah. If you work hard, if you have knowledge, if you have ambitions. You could do whatever you want to do, you can achieve whatever you want to achieve.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Where do you think that attitude comes from? Do you think—we were taught growing up that that’s the American dream, an American idea. But I seem to think that that’s a Russian ideal. That if you work hard, you will succeed. That you have to work hard, that you have to, that you really have to try. You really have to hustle, that you really need to bust your ass to do everything you can and go to sleep tired.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I don't think it's a Russian idea. In Russia, you could work hard and you could be very smart, but to be successful, first of all, you have to have connections. Only connections could help you with some goals, not yourself. There are some exceptions, but I mean for a majority of people, it's just by connections, not by your talent. And again, in Russia, back in my time, if you’re Jewish, you are very limited in the position you could obtain, so… A lot of limitation for Jewish people. At least used to be.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: From what I know, maybe not you, maybe not Mom, but my grandparents—your parents—had to do two or three jobs on the side just to earn money. Right?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Most of the people just work one job. We didn't pay for much, we didn't have mortgages, so we don’t have to pay. We didn’t have to pay for mortgages, just for food. Just save some money for vacation. It was actually the purpose to earn money. Salary wasn't big, but you didn't have to pay for education, you didn't have to pay for medical service. Medical service wasn't good, but you didn't have any choice. And probably you—you didn't have to pay for that, but you had to give some gifts, something meaningful to get good medical service. And sometimes you had to bribe to get into college as well.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: To give bribes, rights?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You'd say you are a hard worker. You and Mom work hard, right?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I think so.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Why do you think you do it? What makes you work hard?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: First, I like my job. And actually, I have to earn money. I don’t know, if I had enough money for all my needs, maybe I would afford early retirement and travel, and go spend my life, maybe more interesting than just work, sometimes much more than eight hours. But I have to earn money to pay my mortgage. It’s just twenty-six years left to pay off my mortgage. I hope I will still be alive at that time. So I had to do it. And I like to do it. Sometimes it’s difficult, and it’s a lot of pressure, a lot of stress. But it’s—what is it? What it is.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you do it for your family? You do it so that you can afford the things you want in life?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It's for my family, to be able to travel, to be able to pay for your education. For other things. To go to restaurants sometimes. To afford things I would like to afford.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I think we could do this for many, many days, weeks. It's been an hour, and I did learn a lot about your life. Is there anything else you’d like to tell me? Anything in particular about your experiences in life or here? Or anything you’d like to share with people? Maybe some hopeful message?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I don't know, actually.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Any advice you would give for people to be successful?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Be a good student. Learn a lot. Be a hard worker. To be ambitious. And you could achieve whatever you would like to.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>AG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Thank you very much, Sergey Gendelman. That was a great interview. Thank you for that.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You’re welcome.</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">(End of Interview)</span></p> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sergey Gendelman Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gendelman, Sergey ; Gendelman, Allan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Sergey Gendelman is a first generation immigrant in America. His roots are in Moscow, Russia. He received a degree in electronic engineering. He went on to further his education in the Soviet Union as a programmer. He immigrated to New York City in 1993 and he worked a few odd jobs until becoming a programmer once again. He continues to live in New York City area with his family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sergey Gendelman.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-13 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 61:26 Subject The topic of the resource Gendelman, Sergey Peter.--Interviews; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Ethnic identity; City and town life--New York (State)--New York https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2ef8d6935f9ae516b15b77742cd60f07.mp3 730c062b67bec5e15983278ea9c147c8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Evan Cole Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sol Braun Biographical Text Sol Braun is an immigrant who lived in Poland, Soviet Russia, and Germany during his childhood. He came to the United States shortly after the end of World War II. He worked as a shoemaker both overseas and in the United States. Sol is now retired and resides in Tappan, New York. He has four children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 36:18 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-01 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Interviews; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Poland; <span>Communism and culture--Soviet Union;&nbsp;</span>Germany; Second World War, 1939-1945; Refugee camps; Labor camps; Migrations; Jews; Ethnic identity; Rockland County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SolBraun.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Polish people; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Refugee camps; Forced labor; World War, 1939-1945; Jews Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Ukrainian Oral History Project</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Sol Braun</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Evan Cole</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Transcriber: Evan Cole</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 1 April 2016 at 04:05 pm</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview Setting: Sol's home, in Tappan, New York</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">(Start of Interview)</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Evan Cole: Hi, I'm Evan Cole and I'm with Sol Braun. It is April 1, 2016, just after 4 PM. We are at Sol's house. Sol is an immigrant from Russia and Poland during the time of the Soviet Union. Sol, start me off by saying when and where you were born.</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Sol Braun: I was born in Poland in a shtetl, a small town outside of Warsaw called Nowy Dwór (Nowy Dwór Mazowiecki).</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: In what year?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I was born in 1927.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You lived in Poland for a short time, right?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Until the age of twelve.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Up until you were twelve. What do you really remember the most about Poland?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: We all lived in the center of town. My father was a shoemaker and he worked very hard. We had enough to eat; I was never hungry. I had a lot of friends and family, and it was an easy life. Being that I was the first born, my mother really took care of me.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How many siblings do you have?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I had two sisters in Poland. At first I went to Hebrew school, Tarbut, and I finished in third grade. My mother decided that's not for me, so they sent me to public school, which I went through 4th and 5th grade, and then World War II started.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Once World War II started, you went to Russia?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: After being with the Germans for a few months, we realized this is not going to be an easy life. So, my parents, me, my father's brother, and my two sisters, we all went to the Soviet Union's part of Poland, called Białystok. It was not an easy life because it was a lot of people. There was no room; we slept on the floor of a synagogue until they organized and we were able to go on some kind of farm, which was not bad. Eventually, in 1940, the Soviet Union rounded up all of those people and they sent us to a Gulag in the Soviet Union.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You said you slept on the floor of a synagogue; is that where you lived as well?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: That was only for two weeks or so.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Can you describe the living conditions of the Gulag in the Soviet Union?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: They brought us in there and then there was a nachalny, the head; he had a speech for us. He said, “This is your home now. You're going to live here and you're going to die here.” That was the first speech, and these were people who were the shoemakers, the tailors, or some other kind of job. The job that was available was to cut down trees, lumberjacks. So, they had to learn. The father worked there, and it was a hard life. The food was not enough food; most of the time we were hungry. Many times, when I ate one meal, I did not know when I'm going to have the second meal, or when I'm going to eat again. Some days, I could've gone a day or two before we had food again. We stayed like this for a year and a half.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When you were given food, how much was given to your family?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: If you worked, you would get 1,500 grams of bread. If we didn't work, we'd get only 400 grams. Also, you needed money to buy the bread. Sometimes, father would get sick and couldn't work. They didn't pay him, so we didn't have money to buy it. It was a very hard life, but after a while, we realized that in spite of all the hardship and all the things they were sending us through in gulags, they actually saved our lives.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How did it do that?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Because, the Germans occupied Poland, Ukraine, and all of Europe. The Jews were sent into concentration camps, or death camps. We were hungry and cold, but our lives weren't threatened. Then, we realized that we're really lucky in a way, because we managed to be hungry and working. After a while, the Russians freed us. They let us go out; we could live wherever we wanted to, like the Russians, but not in big cities. We settled in a small place, not too far from the gulag, in a city called Kotlas, which was maybe two or three hundred miles from the Arctic Circle. Father finally got a job as a shoemaker, his own profession. After that, we were less hungry. That's how it worked out. That was 1941 into '42.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When you left the gulag?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When we stayed there.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So it was only for a year or two?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: About a year and a half.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What were the sleeping conditions like? Did you have a lot of beds for your family?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, when we were in the gulag, we only had one room. My mother and father had the bed. My two sisters and I, we slept on the floor. The room was maybe 8' x 10'. In the morning, we had to chop the wood in the cold and bring it in. It was a hard life, but we were safe.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Is there any way you can compare the life in the gulag to when you moved out to towards Arctic Circle?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It was entirely different, because Father was a shoemaker for one thing. The Soviet Union at that time was: if you wanted to have something done, if you know someone in the higher ups, then you get something done. Father was the only guy to do the shoes, and he had a leg up. If somebody would want it to be done faster, they would bring potatoes and bread. We had extra food because father worked extra hours, and I actually helped him. I became a shoemaker. It was easier; we weren't really hungry. Then, it was a hard life, but we were safe.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: With your time in the gulag, if you could name one thing that you remember the most, what would it be?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When we arrived in the Kotlas, and Father got the job and they decided to give us a place to live. Instead of Kotlas, which is a part of work, there was the river Sukhona. We were right on the river. They found a place on the other side of the river, and that was a walk for about 45 minutes. Father, at every morning and at night, he'd have to get up and go by the river. They had a boat that you had to row. Everybody rowed wherever you can. It came to the side and we went to the other side. It was organized by the people themselves. So, what I remember the most, the first time the whole family went from Kotlas to cross the river. It was already in November, and the river was almost frozen, so what people had was long sticks and there was lots of ice over it, so you push and the ice goes away to cross over. We crossed over and then had to wait a few days or so until the river froze and then we were able to go back and forth. I remember that going on the river and pushing the ice away to cross it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How many languages do you speak?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Well, not now so many, but there was a time, before I came to the United States, I could speak Polish, Russian, German, and Yiddish. Then, when I came to America I learned to speak English. I can speak a little Polish and German, but not very good. English is the main thing.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did you learn Russian before you went to Russia?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, but it's a Slavic language, so it's similar to Polish. It's just a little adjustment. When you're young, you—at the time I was only 13, 14 years old—so at that time you pick it up fast.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When you were in Russia, did you experience any unfair treatment in comparison to America?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I had an instant that was in 1943. At the time we had left Kotlas. My whole family wound up outside of Gorki, which would be on the Walder River, and I forgot what they call it now. So, we wound up in the town called Bogorodsk. Once we got to that town, we were much, much better off. Father was a shoemaker and I helped him, so we had enough food; we weren't hungry anymore.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You weren't discriminated?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Oh yeah, I was going to say that. The only thing I remember was something funny. I don't know if I should say that or not. It's a very innocent thing to say, but there was many Russians who heard of Jews but never met one. So, when I worked there, there was young boys my age. Sometimes at lunchtime, we didn't know what to do. So all of a sudden we stop to pee and they say to me, “We want to see yours because we heard yours is different!” I said, “I'm not going to show,” you know, but at least they didn't look if I had horns. But no, I didn't find any—maybe there was, but I didn't feel it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What is your overall opinion of Russia, now?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: My opinion now?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You, now, of the time in Russia that you had.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I found that the Russian people up north, where I was, are the nicest people you can find because they have to help each other. Just to give an example, if you have to go from one place to the other and you had to walk. If you get cold and you're hungry, you stop at any little house, and you go in there, they'll give you food; you can stay over. What you do is you help out: you chop some wood or do some other things for that. And there was actually no crime involved. The nicest people are up north; I was very impressed with that.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What was the main reason for you to come to America?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: We had family here, and being I was in Germany, a displaced person, so I wanted to come to America and become a citizen, have a job, and belong to someone. When I was a displaced person, I didn't belong to anyone.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How did you get to Germany?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: In 1946, the war was over, so the Russians actually sent us back to Poland on the same trains as those that took us there. But it didn't wind up in my hometown; we wound up in the part that was Germany before the war was like Woldenberg [Dobiegniew in Poland] and Breslau [Wrocław in Poland]. So, we were in Woldenberg. They put us in that place and we stayed there a while. Then we had some information from my mother's sister in New York that we should try and come to America. The only way to come to America was to go to the American zone. So, illegally, we went over the border to Czechoslovakia and then we wound up in Vienna. Also as a displaced person, we wound up near the outside of Frankfurt in a displaced person camp, or DP. We stayed there until 1949.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Can you describe what it was like traveling illegally to get to the safe zone? How long did it take?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: We weren't far from the border. It was all organized. The only thing they told us was, “Don't talk and don't say anything. Throw away all of the documents. Then when you go there, tell them you were Greek.” We went through that and said we couldn't understand anything, and just went through. That was the whole trick; we were told to do that. Once I was in Czechoslovakia, we went in the train and wound up in Vienna. Once we were in Vienna, we actually were not in the Soviet Union anymore; we were free.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you still keep any traditions in America that you had while you were overseas?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Not really, I mean what is there? If you were a religious person, maybe you do the same thing. With me, I adjust. Now I'm an American; I do what Americans do. The American Dream for me is work.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What job did you get when you came to America?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Well, I tried to get a job and the government told me I make it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When you were over in the Soviet Union, what was your opinion of America when you there?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: At that time, in my wildest dreams, I couldn't imagine that I'm going to be in America right now talking to you. I could never imagine that, so it was the usual thing that America's a rich country, gold in the streets, and all kind of things.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did that change when you came over here?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When we came here, we found everything was good. We knew the golden street is not true, but it took me maybe less than a year for me to feel I'm American—took me a while. Once I felt that, it was great.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you miss anywhere you stayed in Europe?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Who were your role models growing up?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: My father.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How did he influence you?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: His honesty, his hard work; he was likable by older people, and it seems like I got his trait, being the same. Plus, I used to read a lot of books in all the languages that I knew. I remember reading—in Germany, the last book I read was, in German, </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">The Three Musketeers</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. In Russia the last book was—I can't read it now. The Polish books, I used to read a lot.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Your father read a lot?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No. Father, he just knew how to read just to get by, because I don't think he went to school. He just learned a little bit.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What was the most satisfying moment that you've had in your life?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: There are so many.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: List however many you want.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I remember it was when we arrived on the ship to America in New York. We always knew the Statue of Liberty, and we arrived very early. It was still dark. I remember going on the ship, before they let us out, I look to the right, and I saw the Statue of Liberty shining with light. That stands out in my mind.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Which cultures do you identify with now?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I'm American.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How important is religion to you?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: With religion, I evolved. When I grew up in Poland in the shtetl, when we went to shul, I was told that there is God and you have to be afraid of him and whatever it says in the Bible, I believed. Actually there was an instant when I must have been 5, maybe 6 years old on Yom Kippur. As I stayed in the synagogue with my parents—my mother was upstairs and separated from Father—so I decided I'll go and see my uncle who wasn't far away and I'll visit them because it's a whole day. I walked into the house and saw him; he was eating and smoking a cigarette, and I couldn't understand why he didn't die on the spot because he was doing this on Yom Kippur. This is one thing, but since then I evolved, and now I believe in God my own way.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So spiritual in your own way and not tied to one thing?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I believe in God, but not in organized religion, but traditionally I'm still Jewish, like I go to synagogue and pray—I do it only because of tradition.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What would you consider to be the most important inventions that happened during your life?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When I was younger or lately?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Any time.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I was impressed when I came to America, they had television. After a while I was able to buy a car, so that impressed me. I got married, had children, so just now the cell phone. This is such a fantastic thing, so you can go on and on. When I was a child, we didn't even have electricity; we didn't have a radio. The trucks and cars, the tires were solid rubber; we're going back a long way. So, this age now, going online and cell phones are really something to me.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When you were in Russia, there weren't many of these inventions?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: In Russia, you didn't own—if you owned a radio, it was only a speaker with one station. The only thing you needed was a speaker to hook up, and that's all. They played music, were talking about the news and everything. One station, so we worked and worked, there was a speaker and the radio was on. You could listen—I could hear, during the war, what was going on with the Americans.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Who was putting out these broadcasts?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: The government. It was one station for the whole Soviet Union.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Going back a bit, what do you think of today's Russia?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Actually, in some ways, I'm agreeing with Putin because in spite of everything that is going in Russia with the financial and other things, the Russians are with him about 80%, whatever he's doing. I understand that because for some reason, when I was there, Crimea was Russian, and all of the sudden, when the Soviet Union fell apart, they started giving away. Everything was breaking up, and all of the sudden, Crimea was given up to Ukraine. I had the resentment myself; I was like, “Why did they do this?” in my mind. So I can imagine, living in Russia, how they felt. So now that Putin took the Crimea away, which I agree that he should be. Also, the investor in nations like NATO, they’re pushing themselves with NATO to Poland and they're circling Russia, and especially in Ukraine, which is right in the heart of Russia. I knew this is wrong because they don't like that. So, I think the western countries overdid this. What they should do is go to Ukraine and say, “Look, you are the country. You stay wherever you want to be but you're going to have to be NATO.” It's threatened Ukraine, so the east and west of Ukraine should make peace.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You're obviously paying attention to Russian news. Do you pay attention to any of the news in Poland or Germany?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: A little bit, but for some reason, being I grew up in some ways in Russia, I can understand what's going on. If I were Russian, I would be against Ukraine being invaded, and I feel the same way right now.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You would say that your time in Russia was rare because you had a positive outlook on it, right?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, because in the end of 1943, we lived in the outside of Gorki, which is Central Russia actually, and we had, relatively speaking, a good life for Russians, so my father worked, and I helped him. We had food, and I had friends, so it was okay.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You said that the northern Russians were really nice.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: The people were different there. They were entirely different.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How so?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I found that in the big cities, the population is more aggressive. I don't know exactly how to say that, but in the north, they tried to help each other in a friendly way. You're not going to find this outside of Moscow or all those places.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What do you think made it different?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It's a different life. It's amazing; the people that I met there, they actually were the children of the parents that Stalin—when he came to power, he took all those rich farmers and sent them there—so in the beginning, they were the same as we were, in the gulags. They were that type of people. I don't know how to explain it, but it's entirely different. It could've changed by now.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What do you remember the most about your sisters?</span></p> <p><b><br />SB</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: My two sisters that were born in Poland, they were doing okay. One was going to school; the other one didn't. But then, in 1943, another sister of mine was born, and we all lived; everything is good. Did I help?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EC</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You did. Thank you so much.</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">(End of Interview)</span></p> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Sol Braun Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Braun, Sol ; Cole, Evan Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Sol Braun is an immigrant who lived in Poland, Soviet Russia, and Germany during his childhood. He came to the United States shortly after the end of World War II. He worked as a shoemaker both overseas and in the United States. Sol is now retired and resides in Tappan, New York. He has four children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-01 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sol Braun.mp4 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 36:18 Subject The topic of the resource Interviews; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Poland; <span>Communism and culture--Soviet Union;&nbsp;</span>Germany; Second World War, 1939-1945; Refugee camps; Labor camps; Migrations; Jews; Ethnic identity; Rockland County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/56a6102152e825a88f3ba0b05ff2d45f.m4a 8e1e70b1e761c14b39c9aed30bb2d620 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Stephan Wasylko Biographical Text Stephan Wasylko was born in a displaced persons camp in Austria in 1948. His parents migrated to the United States with him and his sister in 1949 and they lived on a tobacco plantation in North Carolina. They later moved north and found factory jobs first in New Jersey and then in New York. Stephan received a degree from Syracuse University in International Relations and received a Masters from the University of Toronto. Stephan went into the Foreign Service after receiving his master’s degree and traveled around the world. After retiring Stephan and his wife moved to Binghamton in 2010. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 60:37 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Wasylko, Stephan.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Austria; Prisoner-of-war camps; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=StephanWasylko.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Refugee camps; Diplomatic and consular service; Auburn (N.Y.) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Ukrainian Oral History Project</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Stephan Wasylko</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Transcriber: Zach Nasca and Emily Greenwell</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 10 April 2016</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview Setting: at St. John, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">(Start of Interview)</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Zach Nasca: Hello, so we're here with Stephan Wasylko and we're going to do an interview. My name is Zack and I'm here with Emily. It's Sunday, May 10, 2016 and we're at St. John's Ukrainian Orthodox Church and we're going to ask you some questions. So first, I was just wondering if you could tell us a bit about yourself and your background.</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Stephan Wasylko: Well, I am a son of Ukrainians, born in a displaced persons camp in Austria, Salzburg, Austria, in 1948, where my parents wound up after the war. In 1949, they immigrated to the United States, landed in Ellis Island and went off to Kingston, North Carolina, where their sponsors, it was a Christian organization, sponsored them. After a year there, a very difficult hard year as indentured servants, they made their way to Passaic, New Jersey where they lived for three years and then ultimately settled in Auburn, New York which is not far from here. That's where I grew up, went to high school there. I went onto Syracuse University where I got a degree in international relations. Right out of university, I was drafted into the US Army. Following my military service, I went to the University of Toronto where I got an MBA in International Trade and Finance. I worked my way to Washington, and I joined the Foreign Service and so I spent over 35 years in the US Foreign Service with postings in Washington, some short time duty in China, served with my family in tow in Prague and Budapest before the wall came down. I worked in Vancouver at the Consulate General there. From Vancouver, we went to Kyiv, Ukraine, which, this was after the Soviet Union imploded. I helped open the US embassy there. After that, I came back to Toronto where I served for five years at the US Consulate and my kids finally had a North American high school experience. They both graduated from high school there. From Toronto, I was assigned to a US embassy in Moscow. From Moscow, we went to London, UK and from London, UK we were assigned to Ottawa and I retired from Ottawa with personal rank of Minister Counselor.</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Emily Greenwell: So you've been all over! How old were you when your family settled in Auburn?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Well I was about 4 years old, but I was 9 months old when my family came over. They had basically two babies. My sister is 2 years older, I was 9 months old, so we were a family of four that came to the United States in March of 1949.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZN</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And how long have you been in Binghamton?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Since retiring, since 2010. My wife grew up in this parish, she's originally from Johnson City. We met in Washington, DC, and our two children are grown. They're both working in the city, so aside from having family and her roots here, this is a convenient place for us to retire— my close enough to our kids without actually being in their hair. It's an easy drive there. Our daughter is now a professional fashion photographer in the city, and our son, she graduated from Newhouse School, Syracuse and our son graduated from Ithaca College and he worked with AIG, he's now with Marsh, big insurance companies.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When your family came over, you said that they went with sponsors, but then did they have any reason they moved to New Jersey, then Auburn? Was it just for work?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, it's an interesting story. My mother and father were the only ones from their families that ultimately came to the United States. The rest all remained in, well, that's a whole different story because they didn't even remain where they grew up because of a lot of turmoil after the war in Europe. People resettled so they were forcibly moved. My father's family was moved to the east, and my mother's family was moved to the north of the Baltics. Both of them were taken as young people as slave laborers by the Germans who were on the farms in Austria. So, you know, around the turn of the century when this parish was founded, there were people coming to work in America in the coal mines, some graduated from the coal mines and into the shoe factories and the next generation was with IBM. My mother's father actually was in America several times, working in Pennsylvania, in Elmira, had a big textile industry there. He would come for a year at a time and then whatever he saved up he would go home. It was basically free movement of labor and the labor was needed here so it was quite open to immigration. A lot of the companies actually had recruiting offices in central Europe at that time. My mother had an uncle who actually came at the turn of the century, 1900s, and remained. He married and had a family there. My mother, just remember that she had an uncle living in Passaic. When they were in North Carolina, it was so difficult for them. They were working on a tobacco farm and from sunrise to sunset, my dad would often say the treatment was worse than what they had under the Nazis working during the war. So he managed to get a ticket, bus ticket, got on the bus, traveled to Passaic, NJ and started walking the streets looking for the copulas on the churches and he came across one church, went there and asked them if they knew Mr. Michael Pinchak. They didn't but they told him to try this other church, so three churches later he actually met people that knew him. He was of that parish. He went to talk to him, had to introduce himself because he had never met him, talked his way into the house, convinced these people he was who he said he was. The uncle had children that were my parents' peers, they were around the same age. My father said, "We need help," and the uncle said, "Well, I'll have vacation next year, I'll come down and see how you're doing." My father said, "By next year we might be dead." So one of the daughters took an interest, hired a small truck and driver, drove my father back to Kinston, NC, and essentially picked up my mother and my sister and me, and whatever major possessions they had, and they moved to New Jersey. They worked there for three years, they found jobs. My sister, I think, was just starting kindergarten, and I wasn't even in school yet. Then my father came up to Auburn, New York, with a friend who was living in Auburn. She was, again, one of the earlier immigrants and found that they had a Ukrainian community in Auburn and met people. While he was away, we were living up above a grocery store. It was a four story building and we were on the third floor. The weekend my father was away, the person living above us fell asleep smoking and the whole place was incinerated. I remember as a child, firemen coming and pounding on the doors. We were back standing out on the street watching this building burn. So when he came back from Auburn, whatever possessions they had at this point were water damaged and ruined, it was terrible. He said, "Forget this, we're going to go up to Auburn." For them, Auburn was much nicer. It was green, it was more, you know, sort of pastoral setting and more like what they were used to back home, whereas Passaic, New Jersey, was urban and quite alien to their experiences. So, a long way but nothing is simple.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So I guess they were kind of fortunate that they had those connections.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, if you didn't have family then the church would be a place where people would go just gravitate because if you're from the same faith and the same nationality, people reach out and support immigrants. Now, we've got a third wave of immigrants coming. Not too many here, but since Ukraine became independent there's been a huge influx of immigrants coming to United States, but they go where there are jobs and opportunities and unfortunately, this area doesn't offer too much.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZN</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Now, when you were in North Carolina, were you part of a church community there or not until you moved up?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, there was a protestant church and they were just doing good work. The ladies of the church were very helpful. They'd bring food and clothes, but we were pretty much sort of a welfare case. The farmer they worked for was basically just using them as labor, but the church was Christian and provided Christian help and care.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How did you and your wife meet? She's also Ukrainian, you said, right?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: She is. I'm an immigrant, I had a green card until I took the naturalization exam and got my citizenship. She's third-generation Ukrainian, so her grandmother immigrated and settled here and she came in as a 12-13 year old girl when there was a lot of movement. She married here, my wife's mother was born here and all her aunts and uncles were born here. She said she grew up here, very much a part of this St. John's Baptist Ukrainian Orthodox Church community—which is a church, but it was also a social life for them where they did Easter Egg painting, they sang in the choir, did Ukrainian folk dancing, they had Ukrainian festivals. So kids would, after school, grade school or high school, would gravitate here. We had, at that time, a wonderful pastor. He was married, his wife was great. She was very artistic. They were very inspiring for these kids, and are really responsible for a lot of the people's advancement here in this parish that went onto bigger and better things.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Is your wife in the same line of work as you? You said you met in Washington, right?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: She went to the Fashion Institute of Technology and she was working in Washington as a graphic designer. She's an interior designer by trade and profession, but she was working as a graphic designer. I was in Washington looking for my first job, it was 1976, and there was a celebration in Shamokin, Pennsylvania. It was celebrating the first Ukrainian church in North America that established, and I was interested in going to that. I had a friend, I asked him if he was going. He said he was but he was going to go with this young lady that he had met, and I said, "Well great, if she has room for another person, I'll be happy to go with you all. If not, I'll drive up alone." Fortunately for her, she had room in the back seat, so that's how we met. Yeah, so it had a Ukrainian context in that regard. So we met and after that we started dating, and the rest is history.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When your parents came over, was there anything, any sort of family heirloom or artifact that they brought over with them? Anything that's been passed down to you?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: They brought a tremendous amount with them, but none of it was material. What they brought was, I think first and foremost, their faith, which they shared with us. It sustained them through really hard times because they were removed from their families. They also brought with them these great traditions, how we celebrate Christmas and Easter, which were on a different calendar. We're on the Julian calendar, so we celebrate Christmas on July 7 instead of December 25. In America, again in a good part thanks to Russian propaganda, people call it Russian Christmas. Well it's not, it's the Julian calendar and it's Orthodox Christmas. Then Easter was another tradition we observed. Our Easter this year for example is May 1, so we can be on the same Sunday or up to 5 weeks apart. Ours has a lot to do with Passover, because the last supper was Passover supper, and so that was sort of embedded in us as children and my parents really made it fun and special, so we always felt different. We didn't always have the neatest sneakers or the nicest tee shirts, but we had something no one else had. Plus, our parents were very nationalistic in terms of preserving their language and history, so at home, around the kitchen table when we were eating dinner, and we did a lot of family dinners that was very much a part especially on Sunday, my father wouldn't let us speak English. We had to speak Ukrainian, and for me and my profession it turned out to be a real gift to preserve it. That was very valuable. They taught us how to read in Ukrainian, we went to Ukrainian cultural programs. We participated in various holidays, Taras Shevchenko was the poet laureate of Ukraine, lived in 1860s, sort of the embodiment of what is Ukraine. We would learn his verse by heart, and anniversary of his birth we would have, you know, in our community, these plays. People would come out and recite poetry by heart. A lot of his poetry is put to music. So it was, you know, church and cultural and all these things that we had, and that was basically their legacy. We've tried to pass it on to our children. My son is getting married on the ninth of July to a Ukrainian girl, which I'm sure his grandparents would be very proud of him. My daughter married a wonderful young man from Atlanta, Georgia, but there again he was at the London School of Economics and he did a semester in Ukraine studying iconography. They met at a Halloween party, and I can't remember what he was dressed as but she was the only one that could recognize him, but it's also part of the Ukrainian Gogol Bordello connection. It's sort of that consciousness of being Ukrainian and he went to Ukraine so they immediately had a lot in common and it carried on from there. You know it's just very much a part of who we are. We call ourselves Ukrainian-Americans, and I'm still involved with Ukraine. I'm going to Washington this week. We have a delegation coming in from Washington and I'm working on a USED funded project to help Ukraine develop a national export strategy while they're going through their reforms and trying to get their economy back on a growth cycle after the Revolution of Dignity and all the things that have happened in Ukraine in the past couple years.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You said your son is marrying a Ukrainian girl. Is that something that for your parents was important to them that you marry someone Ukrainian, or do you feel that way about your kids? Or is it just coincidence?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It was very important to my parents. I have three sisters. They all married Ukrainians. I married a Ukrainian. I have one brother who was in the doghouse for a while. He married a non-Ukrainian but his wife really bought into all the Ukrainian traditions. They observe both Christmases, both Easters, their children go to Ukrainian dance camps, go to Ukrainian schools on Saturdays and all that, so it's very much a part of it. He's just basically expanded the gene pool a little bit, which can't be bad.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZN</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Now you said your wife is third generation. Did any of your traditions or celebrations differ from hers or were they pretty much the same?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: They were pretty much the same I think. The only difference we had was Christmas Eve, we had a conflict in our mushroom soups. But other than that, we shared. She brought some in and I brought some traditions in, and we kind of amalgamated and it now has our mark on it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZN</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Does she speak Ukrainian too?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: She sings in Ukrainian. Her language skills are limited. She understands more than she speaks, but we lived in Ukraine for three years, so she picked up quite a bit there but she's not a linguist.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How about you children? Do they speak?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: They understand. My daughter-in-law-to-be is fluent. Alexander, my son, he was in a Russian language immersion, so he has his Ukrainian from his grandparents and he had the Russian, so he speaks sort of a hybrid Slavic language. But all my nieces and nephews, my sister's kids, my three sisters, they all speak Ukrainian but they grew up very close to their grandparents and that's really where you can get most of it. We were overseas for most of their growing up so our kids went to, my son went to a Czech preschool, my daughter went to a Hungarian preschool, so at the age of 4 or 5 was my wife's interpreter at the markets.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: That's a cool story for them to tell of how they grew up.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZN</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I had a question. You said you identify as Ukrainian-American. Would you say you identify as either more? Or is it just a different identity than, you know, separately Ukrainian?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You know, I don't separate the two because that's the beauty of this country. Your composition of, you know, I think President Kennedy said something to the fact that immigrants really enrich this country. So I'm no less American than anyone else, and actually the fact that, you know, I served this country for, including my military, 37 years. For me it was important to give back to the country for opening its doors to my parents and for us.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you think either you personally or your parents, did they face any sort of discrimination for being immigrants?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Well I think, you know, you do. Some of it is sort of subliminal. That's why a lot of people change their names even, so they can, and I never felt the need to. I was not, in my own development, I was proud I was Ukrainian. In high school, I had a fight because they would call me, like, "You're a Polack," and at that point in time the kids were doing a lot of name calling and stuff. I said, “I'm not,” but at that point in time nobody knew Ukrainian, it was overshadowed by Russian. So I think maybe for some people it had an influence, and I can recount times when I thought there was some prejudice there, but it makes me all the more satisfied that we were able to overcome that and that my kids don't even think of it. My daughter, even though through marriage her name could have been Line, but she retained her name, Nadya Wasylko. Even her first name, Nadya I think has become more known, a little bit more popular, but she's very proud of her name. As is my son too. When my mother-in-law was growing up, I think they felt a lot more pressure to become Americanized. More of a melting pot mentality. But when we were growing up it was not that bad. In the army, they couldn't pronounce my simple seven letter name. When they yelled out "alphabet", I knew they were calling me. But again, it's pretty simple but we're pretty lazy in America when it comes to foreign languages. Canada is great. You know, we spent a lot of time in Canada. I did my graduate work in Canada, at the University of Toronto, we lived in Vancouver, Toronto, Ottawa. You know, Canadians define themselves as being not Americans. They won't tell you what Canadian is, but it's definitely not American. We are the melting pot, they promote multi-culturalism. The government really supports different ethnic groups. They put in for grants for various ethnic programs and language training in schools and what have you. That's how they differentiate themselves from us and I think that's really a great thing.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When your in-laws came over, did they change their names at all to be more part of the melting pot or did they keep their name?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, you know, they kept their name. And in this community, pretty much everybody kept their name. There's a few that actually change it. Her grandmother started out as a Czebiniak, married and became a Dobransky. Her first husband died and she became a Kaspryk. They just kept it. And these names became better in the community too. As the family expanded, they kind of just kept their identity.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZN</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Now you said with your family, some of them still live in Ukraine?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, my parents came from very, very humble, almost medieval kind of setting. They were born into families that were essentially in agrarian setting. They lived in thatched roofed huts, houses, dirt floors. Very primitive. This was, you know—my dad was born in 1918, my mother 1924. This was just after World War I. Just before they were born it was part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. I know your focus is on the Russian Empire, but this was the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. After WWI, they basically drew borders and this Ukrainian enclave wound up in Poland, south-eastern Poland. Then comes World War II and you have the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and they redraw the borders again and it was after the war, there were a lot of partisans that were still fighting in that area and so they resettled everybody. My parents, I travelled there, I visited these areas. They were about, maybe ten miles away, their villages. In the 50s, they resettled all the population there, basically to undermine the base of operations of the partisans and for their own needs. The Russians came in and took all the people of my father's village and moved them east, forcibly moved them east. They had to abandon everything. My mother's family was moved north by the Poles to what was the Danzig Corridor. That ran along the Baltic in what is now Northern Poland. That was all occupied by Germans. After World War II, the Germans were basically moved out of there. Poland got the land going right up to the Baltic and they used the people from south-eastern Ukraine to fill that vacuum. So they were all forcibly moved up there. My father was moved to the east. My parents, after the war, were caught up in the displaced persons camps. They were considered stateless because they were Ukrainians, living in what was formerly Poland, and some areas now occupied by the Russians, so they spent from 45-49 in the camp before they resettled. You know, you see now the Syrian immigrants in the camps in Europe, you know, it's basically that kind of setting with these huge, you know compounds where these peoples lived and managed to survive. And so, your question was family there; yes, my mother’s family was in Poland, my father’s family is in what is near Lviv turn, Western Ukraine, and I’ve, you know, I’ve had contact with all of them in both countries.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did they stay because they didn't have sponsors like your parents, or did they stay for other reasons?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: They stayed because they had no options, they were under communist control, the USSR at that time was a locked—you know they couldn't, you couldn't even go from one city to another without having a totalitarian government, so under Stalin at that time, it was extremely difficult, and Poland went Communist you know in '49, the communists took over. And restrictions on travel, on movement of people, you know it was the Iron Curtain. It had gone up, and so it was, what Ronald Reagan referred to as the “evil empire” had taken hold and so people were basically prisoners in their own countries. Prisoners.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So, sorry if this is going backwards, but how did your parents manage to come over then, if the rest of the family couldn't? Because of the sponsors?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Well, because they were separated by their families, during the war, '39 the Germans came in to the region they were in. And they took young people from different homes and took them as slave laborers to Austria and to Germany. So they—after the war was over, you had the, you know, literally millions of displaced people, you had prisoners of war, you had slave laborers, you had millions of people that were, had been uprooted by the war and had wound up in different locations at the end of the war. So they didn't know what had happened to their families. They were taken into these camps, then there were all these international NGOs, these nations that are trying to sort out. A lot of people repatriated; others like my parents were classified as stateless, there was nowhere to repatriate them, although the Russians came in and tried to take people back, and the people that they did repatriate directly, a lot of them, you know, suffered as a consequence. They were considered as collaborators with the Germans, many were imprisoned, some were killed; others were sent off to Siberia. And some you know, my parents managed to find a safe haven, and they were in an American zone, and eventually there was, it was a long process for them to get resettled. That’s why when you, when you have this big uproar about immigrants coming to America now, you know, it's a lot of rhetoric, but that clearance process is very very difficult and it takes time, and you got to, what is the name of accepting the displaced people until later you know, some kind of treatise to open up more quickly, my parents could have moved out of the camps more readily had they agreed to go to Australia, or to South America, but again, because they grew up hearing about stories about their grandparents going to America, they were more determined to wait it out until they had an opportunity to get on the manifest to go to America. So it wasn't a matter of choice—the winds of war swept people around and my father would always say that, as terrible as the war was, World War II, in many respects it opened up the world for these people who lived in these really beautiful pristine valleys and villages, and very idyllic nice place for tourists to visit, but they were a subsistence economy that, you just couldn't survive you know, had the situation like that continued. They'd have to find a way to find more opportunities.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You said that your parents kind of held out for America. Do you think that America met their expectations? Did they have the sort of American dream mentality for it?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I think you know, eventually over time they realized the American dream. They came to this country penniless with no education to speak of, you know, they can read, they can write, but they really didn't have, you know, what they were able to give their children. So they raised five kids, we all went to University, they had their own home. My dad got his own car. You know it was just remarkable, and they worked. They worked. They were blue collar workers. They worked in factory. My mom worked the day shift, my father worked the night shift. But when they got to Auburn. When you know, they found the house, put a down payment on it. They managed to pay it off in like five years, paid off their mortgage. And again they just—it was amazing, you know, for them at the same time, you know their brothers and sisters and even their parents in the early years, were still alive, you know, who were living a terrible life behind the Iron Curtain in the Soviet Union. You know, my parents, once things, after Stalin died and there was a little more communication, they sent letters, or they would send, you know, money. They would package, you know, clothing and send it, or there was even services where you could actually do gift packs of food and send it. I went to Ukraine in 1975 with my dad. He had not been back in forty years. And or seen his brothers in 40 years. He had five brothers and they were all young, virile men. When, as he remembered them, in '75 we went back and he was absolutely devastated to see his brothers. How you know, how abused they were. How downtrodden and you know, they, my father looked like a capitalist, and these guys looked like homeless people. And they worked as hard if not harder than my father, but they didn't have the opportunities, their kids didn't have the opportunity to go to education. And in our case, you know, for you know, if my parents didn't get out of that world, there's no way I would have been a diplomat for the Soviet Union or for Poland, you know, unless you were connected, unless you worked the system, unless you were a member of the Communist Party, you had nothing. And so they came here, and basically by their own sweat and toil, and they're, you know, very scrupulous habits, we didn't go out when we were going up, out to restaurants or anything. My parents had their own garden, you know, canned peaches and pears, and they basically took their own training and their way of life, transposed it into an American setting, managed to save money, managed to buy a house, managed to do all these things. And I never felt that, even though we didn't live on the East End of Auburn, where all the doctors and lawyers [lived], but we were not really poor in any way. We had food, we had clothing, we were washed and clean and we were presentable. But that was all basically their commitment and dedication to their family. And again, what they managed to do for them really was a realization of the American dream. I hear about the, all kinds of people use the [word] “American” and I think it means different things for different people. When I was in Moscow we had Secretary Evans, who was a friend of George W. Bush. They were real buddies, and actually Don Evans introduced George to Laura. So they were really good good friends, and he would come out and he would, Secretary Evans would talk about his own life, and how he and his friend George, young starry eyed guys, you know, went out there looking for oil in Texas, and looking to, living the American dream. Well, you know, to me that was great but it's like, just like Trump's thing is living the American dream because he's so successful, he only started with a few million.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Only?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Only. So that was great, great for him, but you know for my parents, it really was you know the American dream, to where they started and what they accomplished, and you know, where they'd gone. And just in a very short, one, two generations. You know it's been great. And they were inspiring, you know, they're inspiring to even my kids, who hadn't experienced, and so, you know I try to instill in my own kids, you know that, and they're familiar with their grandparents’ story. I've seen them go the distance, you know, see where your grandparents started and how far they went, and then how we've gone in the next generation, and for you, and again, it doesn't have to about money, it's just has to do about you know believing and trying to achieve something you know make your life meaningful. And so that's a great story right there.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZN</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Now you said neither of your parents got an education but all of your siblings did. Was education important to them—that you got it?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, but they were, my mother got the report card. You know when a teacher told her, “Well, Stephan is, he's pretty smart but he's lazy.” Well, you know how they dealt with lazy kids back then, you know it was— But yeah, it was very, very important to them. When there were Ukrainians and there was Poland. They were a minority there too, so they suffered a lot of discrimination and abuse in Poland as ethnic Ukrainians, they didn't have their own schools. They didn't have their own language, newspaper or books or anything they were sort of looked down upon and you know they were in this, hills. The foothills of the Carpathian Mountains, and I think they were looked upon and treated as hillbillies. They didn't have a lot of opportunities. Now people that lived in larger cities, that was different. Maybe they had more success, but for my parents it was tough, and so when they came to America, you know the fact that you know they didn't have to do anything special, actually we were required to go to school, so immediately we are in Kindergarten and going to school, and in Auburn we had a parochial school, it was the Ukrainian St. Paul Ukrainian Catholic school, so that's where they sent us. Then we went to the public school system, and then. My parents, my dad in particular, he would ask me, “What, how much education do you really need?” You know, and I said, “Well, I don't know,” but, because after, you know, first of all I'm going away to University, that was something that they weren't really too excited about, because when you go away you go away, you know, and they had gone away, and so they were really very focused on keeping us close. But I went away from Auburn to Syracuse, that's 27 miles away but it was like it was away. And then when I went, after I got out of the military and I said I was going to go for my Masters, again they didn't really comprehend why: “When are you finally going to go to work?” But that was, again, their mindset. It was beyond what they felt one needed.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did your siblings go away for school, as well, or did they stay close to your parents?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Well my oldest sister went to the local community college, it was Auburn Community College at that point in time. Now it's I think, it's like Broome County, BCC, so she did that, and then I went away, my other sisters went away, my brother went away so you know it was sort of weaning you know a weaning process.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you were the first to leave?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Actually leave? Yeah, which was, you know, but they, you know they were very, you know, proud of the fact, but they'd always say, so what is it that you do? But that went on even here, you know my mother-in-law, when she had just made—at that point my first job was with the US Department of Commerce in Washington, and she'd introduce me as her son in law who works for the Junior Chamber of Commerce, which was not quite the same, but again, people have trouble grasping it if they had never been there and done that.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZN</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So now I want to talk about—you said obviously you traveled a lot, so is there any place that you, specifically liked more than any others, or felt the most at home at, and do you have any interesting stories about your travels?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Well, we don't have the time. I'm sure, you know every place, when you, on a foreign assignment representing the US government and doing the kind of work I did, you know, it's absolutely fascinating, and every country has its plusses and minuses, but you know for me, I think probably the most meaningful assignment was to go to Kyiv and, you know, that was from 92 to 95, when we were establishing the US embassy in Ukraine and established diplomatic relations with Ukraine. I had a tremendous sense of actually working for two countries, you know, doing you know our bidding for the US, at the same time, sharing my US experience with Ukrainian government officials and trying to encourage them with their transformation from a central planned economy to a free market economy. And my capacity, I was working as a senior commercial officer so we were bringing the US companies in to basically trade with Ukraine, to invest in Ukraine, and you know to this very day I'm still trying to help that process, so it was very very difficult, it was frustrating. You always wanted things to move more quickly. 25 years later they're still facing some of the same issues. What was particularly striking and interesting was that in places like Kyiv—it's commonly called, it’s “Kiev” in Russian context but “Kyiv” in Ukrainian, you know that was so Russified that you know we were more Ukrainian than they were in many respects. The Ukrainian people living under communism, you know, weren't, it was an Atheist country so they didn't have the kind of religious; you know, faith organizations or engagement as we grew up with. A lot of the traditions were no longer even practiced in Ukraine. In Kyiv, in the big cities, out in the villages I think they were still preserved, but my wife actually, she's in the memorial center now running the Pysanka workshop doing the Ukrainian Easter eggs. She did the same thing in Ukraine for Ukrainians because they had no idea. And actually during the Stalinist years, they would look at children's hands. If you had dyes on your hands, then they knew your family may be doing this evil thing, and doing you know making these Easter eggs which related to a Christian holiday, which could set you back quite a bit or you could even be punished for doing that, so living and working in Ukraine was an amazing experience, and you know, going back now I can see how much has changed, and I can still see how much further it has to go, and you know it's a beautiful country and we actually got to see firsthand you know, some of the things that we read about and heard about. We went to the theatre and you can see, you know, the performing artists, performing well-known Ukrainian operas and plays, Ukrainian dancers, and it's just really all kinds of different traditions that you can actually witness. So that was a great bonus on top of— I never worked harder in any job than there. I always used to tell people, you know, in Ukraine you need to work four times as hard to go half the distance, but it was what it was and it was just a thrill.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: While you were working there, did you hear any or witness any views about what they think about America? Did they have negative views of America, or was it positive?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: While we were there, people had positive, sometimes unrealistic views; you know they, you know everything, you know, in America, you know, money grew on trees and, you know, sort of the land of milk and honey, and they didn't really grasp how hard people really had to work in order to achieve what they got and earned, so you know, growing up in this socialist environment, you know, they say, well if you have it, why can't I have half of what you have, you know? Which is, and even going back to when my father was alive, and I went with him for the first time, they said, well, his family would say, “Well, you have more than one car.” And they go, “Well yeah, you know, like I have a car, Stephan has a car, and has a car,” and so at that point in time, we had three cars and the family [says], “Well, why do you need three cars? Why don't you send us one?” you know, and you know they were always wanting. But not understanding that, you know, it doesn't come that easy. And so I think there's those kinds of misconceptions, there’s, you know, and a lot of that is going into, you know what the biggest issue in that part of the world is now is, the greed is one real problem, corruption is another major problem. A lack of, you know charity, altruistic society, you know, when I was there it was, everybody was just scrambling to get whatever they could get, and that sort of legacy of the Soviet system, of, you know, if you were in line in the supply chain, then you would steal whatever you could, while you had the opportunity to do it. That's changed considerably in the last few years, especially since this Revolution of Dignity, and a lot of people, they are really, these civil society pushing for change. People of your generation who, you know, were born after the collapse of communism. They don't, they really didn't experience what that is. But that hangover is still there, and it really is, you know, a real drag on the country’s development. Now they've signed the association agreement with the EU, people are you know, which is basically a roadmap for them on how they should govern, how they should work, what the world standards are for everything from food products to the legal systems, and so the younger generation says you know like, we need to adopt that, and once we do then we can be competitive with the rest of the world, but there is a lot of vested interest that really depends on the status quo. So, it's a real struggle, and so they're confronting, you know, an external evil with Putin taking Crimea, invading Eastern Ukraine, and then the internal evil forces that are basic corruption and greed, a lack of rule of law that undermines progress and keeps it from moving as quickly as it could.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When you were sort of like, traveling for your work, I assume you weren't as involved in a Ukrainian community as you were here. Is that, would you say that's true or not?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, no. You know, it varied—like in Ukraine, you were in Ukraine, so, like everything was Ukraine.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: In Hungary, there wasn't that much, in Prague, you know, I'd meet some people, actually I had Secret Service come at me, through this Ukrainian sort of contact, and befriended me, so you couldn't really trust who is what and what was going on, but in places like Vancouver, you know you had a Ukrainian community there, in Toronto as well. Ottawa, same thing. And so and kind of the community like that, you're on assignment working at the US embassy in Ottawa for example. After you get settled, well, you know, Sunday we'll go to church, and then you meet, you know, other Ukrainians and they'll put you on their mailing list and tell you things that are going on or—so yeah, it's always there, and again, come Christmas and Easter and the holidays, you know, we'd invite our, even though we were American, we celebrated 4th of July, and have a huge reception and parties for that, in my work you know we had trade shows and we'd do all kinds of different events, waving the American flag, but then we had our Ukrainian holidays, we would invite embassy friends, and we'd invite people from the community, friends that we made, and share with them some of our Ukrainian culture in an American setting, and so it was, we're really promoters of things Ukrainian, and I think that just comes from the fact that Ukraine had been so overshadowed for so long, you almost feel like it's an obligation, to do that, to educate people and let them share a little bit of the Ukrainian history and culture.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZN</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Now, here would you say that most of the Ukrainian community revolves around the church, or are there other Ukrainian organizations?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">:&nbsp; Here it's, it's pretty much church-affiliated, there's a small group of people that are involved in the political way, the Ukrainian Congress Committee of America has a branch here, so, you know, we do flag-raising on Ukrainian independence day, to get a little press. You know the festivals that we do here, Sacred Heart does some festivals; we do, we try to promote a little bit of the Ukrainian thing, but it pretty much centers around the church. And a lot of it's apolitical—you know, actually, I'm probably more of an agitator than the rest because I want people to be aware of, you know, the plight of others and it's, you know, we're sort of in—sometimes we fade into la-la land, you know, we're just watching baseball and the NCAA tournament, which is great and all that, but we forget, we tend to forget about what's happening in the world around us. Just given my background experience and my work, my career, I think we have an obligation to at least know what's going on.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Would you, do you think the Ukrainian community in Binghamton in general is a close-knit community, do you have a lot of involvement with each other?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I, you know, I think over time, we are just sort of dissolving into the broader community, and that's a natural thing, you know we have a lot of mixed marriages now. We don't have the language. Our deacon, you heard it in church, he's not even Ukrainian, he married a young lady from our parish and he went to the seminary, and for him to get ordained he has to have, to be able to do the liturgy in Ukrainian. So he's working on his language, but with that one exception, no one really pays attention to it. So yeah we're basically losing it and other communities who have been blessed or have been able to receive the third wave of immigrants. My wife's grandparents were considered the first wave. My family when I came in was the second wave. And now you have the third wave, post-independence. They're coming here and, you know, some places, some cities, they have basically taken over the churches, the organizations and sort of revitalized all of them, and sort of given them sort of life extension that we don't have here. We're having trouble with even supporting this campus that I may have mentioned earlier because we, this church had like 300 people at one point. We're down to 130, and a third of them don't live in the area. Another third are octogenarians, and so that doesn't leave a whole lot of people to sustain this.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZN</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Well, I think that's all the time we have for questions, so thank you very much.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Thank you!</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SW</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I hope I didn't overburden you.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>EG</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No! Not at all. It was very interesting.</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">(End of Interview)</span></p> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Stephan Wasylko Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wasylko, Stephan ; Nasca, Zach ; Greenwell, Emily Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Stephan Wasylko was born in a displaced persons camp in Austria in 1948. His parents migrated to the United States with him and his sister in 1949 and they lived on a tobacco plantation in North Carolina. They later moved north and found factory jobs first in New Jersey and then in New York. Stephan received a degree from Syracuse University in International Relations and received a Masters from the University of Toronto. Stephan went into the Foreign Service after receiving his master’s degree and traveled around the world. After retiring Stephan and his wife moved to Binghamton in 2010. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Stephan Wasylko.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-10 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:37 Subject The topic of the resource Wasylko, Stephan.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Austria; Prisoner-of-war camps; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/37780beb0a06738036a16c3228aa8723.m4a 4758487f7693caa7060f3de288cb70fd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jake Sperber and Zach Kolesnik Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sveltana Kolesnik Biographical Text Svetlana Kolesnik is an immigrant from Berdichev, Ukraine. She dealt with persecution growing up due to her religion and felt the only way to feel free was to leave her home country. She immigrated to the United States in 1989 with her husband. She came to the United States in hope to provide her children a better life and a Jewish education. She now lives in New City, New York where where she is active in the Jewish community with her husband and three children. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 58:51 minutes Date of Interview 2016-03-31 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp4 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Interview Format Video or Audio audio Subject LCSH Kolesnik, Svetlana.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Persecution; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; City and town life--New York (State)--New York OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=SvetlanaKolesnik.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Soviet Union; Jews Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Ukrainian Oral History Project</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Svetlana Kolesnik</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Jake Sperber and Zach Kolesnik</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Transcriber: Jake Sperber and Zach Kolesnik</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 31 March 2016 at 02:40 pm</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview Setting: 31 Beaumont Drive New City, New York</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">(Start of Interview)</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Zach Kolesnik: Ok so we’ll be conducting this interview. My name is Zach Kolesnik.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Jake Sperber: And I am Jake Sperber.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Svetlana Kolesnik: And my name is Svetlana Kolesnik.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And we are doing, conducting this interview in New City, New York. It is 2:40 PM right now and we will start the interview.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And it is Thursday March 31st, 2016.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: All right.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you, uh, immigrated in 1989, and you were born in 1960.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, I was born in, in 1963.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So, you spent 26 years under the USSR, I guess umbrella.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Correct.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Would you say like, what was the daily schedule for your life as a kid?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: As a kid we have school six times a week from Monday-Saturday from 8:30-2:15. And it’s every morning I would walk to school—there is no transportation, there is no buses. You have to walk to school, no matter where you live. So usually there is few schools in town and your parents, when you’re seven years old, sign you to schools nearby and you walk. My husband lived far away but we went to the same school, but school that we went to was one of the best schools in town so there was no like, school bus.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So there was no school bus, right.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: There was public transportation, but again public transportation is not as prompt as here, for example, you take a train here and wait five minutes and the train is coming. There it can usually be a half hour, so you usually walk to places no matter what, sunny day, snowy day, rainy day—and school never closed, we always had school. No matter how many inches of snow we had, we always had school and everybody walked. And after school, um, I had activities, I went to the school of music, so three times a week I went to different school after regular school. And eh, you can play sports or other activities, and after you went to that school you came home and did homework. What school offers you, like if you have small kids, they have after-school programs for free, and I usually stayed in this program because both of my parents would work, and I stay until 5 o'clock and after that my mother or my sister would come pick me up and bring me home. We also had a lot of variety of sports and different activities that you can do after school in a different location. If you were not busy, there was always something to do after school. And also what we have different in the Ukraine, where I grew up, uh, we had like, after school I used to come home and play with my friends outside. And it was always, unless it was heavy rain, I would always go outside and play even if it was just for a half hour or something, me and my friends would go together and we would play some games.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did you have uh, traditions that you would do as a kid? Like I guess we have Halloween and kids—I don't know, what were some of the things that— [pause] That would not happen at all?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: We did not have traditions as a kid, but as a country we had a tradition to go on the parade, and it was mandatory so I can't say that this was tradition.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Wait, when was the parade?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Parade was twice a year, parade was on May 1st and November 7th. On November 7th, this is when the great Revolution happened in 1917, and since that every year it’s mandatory, if you're in school or even in college and if you work, you have to go to the parade. And you walk in front of your, I don't know, local government people. But I don't know if it counts as tradition, and what usually would happen after that is my family would get together and stay together and just have a nice dinner together.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And you would do that two times a year?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It was two times a year where we, you know, and also big holiday in Russia is New Year. We didn't celebrate any other holidays, we didn't celebrate any Christmas or Passover or Rosh Hashanah, we didn't—only New Year we celebrate.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you’re saying that in the—religion wasn't a thing?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Oh, because I have read that Eastern Orthodoxy was big in—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, no. It was not big deal, I mean some people celebrate, but people always were afraid to go to church because they could lose their job. So if you go to church, or go to synagogue, or mosques, there is no guarantee that the government won't know about this because as a country it was, it was an atheistic country, you know atheist. Even if you believed in God you didn't say, and if you practiced this or religion even in your family, nobody else can know about it because if people find out you can go to jail.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you practiced no religion whatsoever outside the house?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, even in the house it was very quiet, like my parents did not want to know that my neighbor would know that we, we didn't have like any Passover dinner. We never had Passover. I mean we always had matzos but they were always hidden in the hidden place that nobody could find them like in the closets. Except when we ate them during Passover, but we never had dinner.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you guys wouldn't go to synagogue or church at all? Were there synagogues and churches around you?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, there were synagogues and churches around, and uh, first time in my life that I went to synagogue, uh, actually I went to synagogue in Russia twice. Once when my grandma died, and I went to synagogue to bury her and carry out the dues of the Jewish religion. And second time I went to Moscow before we left Russia and we had already gotten permission from the Russian government to leave country. When we went to go buy ticket to leave the country, we went to synagogue a second time.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Uh, I just have a question, for the children in Russia are there very high expectations? Do their parents have very high expectations for them?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, parents have very high expectations in school, and excel in after school activities like music and sports.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes absolutely, and also every parent wants their child to succeed. And some kids are gifted and some kids are not so gifted but parents try to do as much as they can to kids this way they have better opportunity to find better job and make a better life. This is why a lot of kids go to college, and it's hard for you. There is also option, especially for boy—in Russia if you're a boy it’s mandatory, if you’re 18 years old, to go to the army unless you’re in college. If you're not accepted to college you go to army, and the army in Russia is a nightmare so you do not want to be in the army no matter what. Especially for boys.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Were any of your family members in the army?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: My family, my cousin went to the army because he did not go to college so he went to the army. Like my husband was in the army for three months but he already graduated from college and during the college years he had like a special subject, military science, and he went as an officer. So it wasn't as bad and I mean my husband is very physically fit so it wasn't hard, it was hard for him but not as hard as it is for the rest of the people. So this is why parents spend a lot of time, they want kids and they don't their kids to have to go to the army.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Ok, so how is it like when you were immigrating to the United States?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How I immigrated to the United States?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, how was the process like?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: The process in Russia was, uh, actually you have to apply for, and you apply to Russian/Ukraine government—Soviet Union government. You apply, saying what you want to do, “I want to leave this country and I want to give up my citizenship.” In order for me to give up my citizenship there is a few things that have to be done. First of all, if you have parents who are alive, they have to sign a paper saying that they are allowing you to leave the country. Because if one parent, even if you’re fifty years old it doesn't matter—if you have a living parent they have to sign the papers saying they allow you to leave country. Second of all, you have to pay a lot of money, because my husband and I went to college and back in Russia you didn't pay for college, college was for free, if you were a good student you didn't pay. So we have to pay a lot of money in order for us to leave country. But even after you pay this money it does not give you guarantee that Russian government will let you leave country so there is also always possibility that they will not, Russian government will not let you stay in country, I mean let you leave country because, and this is a problem because you don't have a job and nobody is going to hire you if you already have applied to leave the country, but we were lucky and in 1989 a lot of people left, and also a lot in Russia is about connections and we were lucky that the person who was in charge of this was my neighbor. The guy who let people leave the country lived in our small town, so he help us out and we waited for a few months.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did you know that you wanted to leave Russia before 1989 though?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah but we couldn't, we couldn't because in 1988 they let first group of people leave country. Before you couldn't; before if you wanted to leave Russia you couldn't even apply, they wouldn't let anybody out of the country. The first immigration happened in 1972, from 1972-1974 where a few families were lucky to leave country and move to Israel or the United States.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Wait, you just said they were lucky?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, because if you apply and they close borders, you stuck in Russia with no job, with no money, with nothing.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So, it sounds like you aren't too fond of Russia.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I wasn't fond in Russia?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Like, you don't, like, sound like you speak too highly of Russia.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Listen, I can't say that I, it was, we grew up in country and we weren't allowed to go to different country. If you were to say, "You know what, I am going to go live in Australia for 6 months," then there is a process, you can go and try to apply for visa, and you either like or don't like it and you can come back. In Russia there is nothing like this. First of all in Russia there was only two Russian channels on TV, there was one in Russian and one in Ukrainian, because I lived in Ukraine, and we would listen morning to night to this Russia propaganda. You can't go to different country, you just can't buy ticket and go to different country, it was a whole process. But when we left in 1989, we applied and we wait for a few months, and after that you wait for 3 months or 4 months, and there was a problem to buy ticket too. And to get from Russia to buy ticket is also a process—I mean, I don't think it is easy for you to understand that we travel all the way to Moscow to stay, every morning, 6 o'clock in the morning my husband and I went to place to check out and we stay in a line and every day they say, "Okay we are going to sell a hundred tickets." For three weeks we went to this place until we got to the place where we could buy tickets ’cause there was limited amount of tickets, there was a lot of people and it just, everything was complicated. So we got permission and we also got permission to travel to Vienna, we got a visa from Vienna and we also went through, at that time it was Czechoslovakia, and that's it. You know, first of all when you leave Russia you aren't allowed to take money. The amount of money you're allowed to take is $146 per person. Even if you have more money you can't take this money with you, so you buy jewelry at home.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Together $146, or each person can take $146?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Each person can take $146, so you go with this money, you exchange your Russian Rubles, you're allowed to take $146. You can take two bags of clothes or whatever and you start your life in a different country; if you’re young it really doesn't matter, you can start life in any new country.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So, did you just leave whatever you had behind at your parent's house?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, we left whatever we had.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You just left all the valuables?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, I mean we took, like, we took everything: clothes, anything, whatever you, we could fit. We took even pan, I mean we took plates; we took silverware, because I had no money to buy different things in the different country. I lived, before I came to America for three months I lived in a different country so I had no money to go to the store and buy plates. So I had to bring my plates, my silverware, my cup, blankets, everything, pillow, whatever you can. We were very limited in everything, but this is how it was to live. And first we went to Austria, to Vienna, and first we stayed there.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: This is when you were immigrating?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, we took the train to Vienna.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Oh you did not even fly.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, no we came to Vienna, HIYAS, its an organization with the Israeli and American government, and they met us in Vienna and they made arrangements for us to stay in a hotel and uh, we went to this hotel where we stayed for two or three weeks. Then we went to the American Embassy and we asked to be a legal refugee of the country. And they said to us, “In order for us to process your paper you have to move to a different country, you have to move to Italy and you have to wait until we’ll give you permission to come to live in America.” So we took a train to live in Italy and we stayed in Italy for two months.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did you work? How did you communicate with people? You only knew Ukrainian and Russian.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, we did not speak English or Italian and we did not speak any German, but luckily my husband likes languages so he learned Italian and he got a job and they paid him $1 an hour and he built parks. You know like from town to town, like spring break usually here in Rockland County, people come and play and go to the circus. So because my husband is big and strong, they hire him to build this, so he travel for, like he used to come to a town and help guide this and put it together, and guys would stay in this place for one week and then move to a different town and build another, so for us it was kind of income. And he also went on the field to collect grape.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So it was very difficult to move from Russia before 1989--.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I am telling you it is not easy to move now also. It’s just people have a little bit more money so they people move for money in Russia.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you know a lot of people who have successfully moved from Russia?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Sure.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Absolutely, all my friends, a lot of my friends. First of all when we moved to Russia, what happened, we met a lot of—you know, when you in circumstances like this, you don't speak any language, you are alone, you meet people that become friends for all life. And people, the people that we met in Austria and in Italy, we still keep in touch with and still in a good relationship with, and I would say most of them become very successful and build families, and raise kids, and now they have grandchildren so it worked out.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did most people only try to immigrate to the United States? Was the United States your only option or did you try immigrating to, for instance Israel or another country.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: In order for you to leave Russia, unless you have a relative or a first cousin. Only if you have a first cousin in America and invites you to go to live with him in America, you can do it. (Like Lennie Levine) The rest of the people had Israeli visa, the process was if you have Israeli visa you go directly to Russian government and say, “I want to live in Israel because I am Jewish,” or if you are not Jewish, if you are a Christian you say you want to live in a different country, but they also took Israeli visas saying you want to live in Israel. But when you come to Vienna, Austria, you can go to the Israeli consulate and say that you would like to try to live in a different country and they had no problem with whatever you wanted to do. What they did was basically help Russian people just to leave country, and this was the only one exit that would let you leave the Soviet Union if you have an Israeli visa.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It was Vienna?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, no it was an Israeli visa but the reason why we went to Vienna, because Israel made arrangements with Vienna that Russian people are going to come to this country and they were going to help them out. You couldn't go to different country, you would have to go through this path.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And you had a first cousin that was in the United States?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, we did not have first cousin in the United States, we had Israeli visa. And from when we lived in Italy, we were looking for different possibilities, and one of the possibility was to go to Australia, but in order to go to Australia you have to pay $500 and you have to be approved by Australian government, and you have to have $500 and somebody that would guarantee when you come to Australia they’re going to help you out. We didn't have $500, but they really like us because my husband and I both graduated from college. We were young, we were twenty years old, so they offered us to go to this country, but because we didn't have money we decided we are going to stay in Italy and move to the United States.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you think that, um, wait I just want to shift the discussion, do you think that you raised your kids differently than you were raised in Russia?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Sure I raised my kids differently than I was raised.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What are some of the differences from like how a kid is raised in Russia and how a kid is raised in America?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: My parents did not have to remind me that I have to put garbage outside. I have to remind my kids every Wednesday and every Saturday, you know what it's your time to do something in the house. Because in Russia it is different, kids do much more in the house to help parents. As a child, during the summer when I did not have school I went to market to buy fresh fruits and vegetables to bring home to save my mother a little bit of time so she doesn't have to do this. She used to do this every day all year round, before she went to work she would go to the market to buy stuff, so during the summer I would help her out. I would go with Mother to the market and get the stuff and bring it home so I could help her out. I, also what was a difference, like during the summer time, where we live, it was a nice river and all young people hung out at the beach, so I knew every day at 12:30 I would have to go and prepare lunch for my parents, because my parents had lunch from 1-2 and they came for lunch home almost every day. So as a kid I know I would have to prepare lunch for them.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: There was no sleepaway camps?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: There was sleepaway camps. I went to sleepaway camp twice and the first time I went with my older sister and the second I went by myself and I like it. But also not every child could go, you have to pay for sleepaway camp and it's expensive so not every child could afford it.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Was it in Ukraine?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, yeah it was in Ukraine, and the sleepaway camp was a little bit different then it is here. Here you have a choice, if you want to go to this camp you go to this camp. In Russia you go to sleepaway camp at a base where your parents work. If your parents work on the plant and this plant has sleepaway camp, you don't have a choice of where you go to sleepaway camp. So where my parents worked, sleepaway camp was far away so I did not want to go, but I went twice or three times.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Uh, are you, like, happy that you didn't live in Russia—you lived in—would it have been much harder to live in Russia than the Ukraine?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Uh, Russia and the Ukraine, I think it was easier to live in the Ukraine than in Russia because, first of all it is easier because Ukraine is more like fruits and vegetables you can buy on the market; in Russia there is limitation.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Oh, like rationing.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Right and the quality of the product, you know what you can afford. Life in the Ukraine at that time, where I grew up, I think was better than in Russia, and it was, it was not like supermarkets, it was like small stores where you go in and buy stuff, but difference between Russia and America is there wasn't a lot of variety. If you go to stores there was two or three kinds of bread, and if you want to have fresh bread you would have to go at 6 o'clock in the morning, if you come at 11 then there is no bread.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Is that in the Ukraine?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah and the same in Russia, it's the same in Russia. The difference in Russia is that there is few big cities like Moscow or Leningrad, so in those cities you can go to store, maybe you can buy a little bit more in a government store because back in Russia or Ukraine everything belonged to the government, we did not have supermarkets that belonged to a private person.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Um to go back to schooling, how was—how was it like, did you go to—you lived in Ukraine, so did you go to a Ukraine school or did you go to a Russian where they taught the first language as Russian or Ukrainian?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Ok, in the city that I lived it was two choices—I grew up in Berdychiv, Ukraine. You can go to Russian school or you can go to Ukrainian school, but like before war, it was also Polish school because a lot of Polish people lived in Ukraine too, it's close to Poland. But when I went to school it was either Russian school or Ukrainian school. I went to Russian school. But from 2nd grade I had second language as Ukrainian, but all subject were taught in Russian. Where you can go to a Ukrainian school also and all subject would be taught in Ukrainian and you have Russian as a second language. The reason why my parents sent me to a Russian school is because first of all, we spoke Russian at home, and second of all there were more chances for me to go to college to Russia, for example, because my first language was Russian. And again it was a limit on how many people can go to college, and as a Jew it was not easy to get to college even if you had all "A" marks.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You would have to put it down on your transcript?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes on my transcript, and then when you go with your passport it is written on it that I am a Jew.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Was it very prejudiced?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Even in the Ukraine also?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes it was in Russia, Ukraine it was everywhere. So if you go to college and they said they can take 100 kids, but we only allowed to take 3% Jew, so you have to be smarter than all Jewish kids in order for you to get to this college because they can only take 3 people. And also in Russia you can't apply to 25 schools like you apply here, here you apply to college there is no limit, you can apply to every SUNY school or any school. There is no limit on how many applications you send, it is just how much money you want to spend on the application. In Russia, you can only apply to one school and if you're not accepted you have to wait another year and you have to apply again.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So those kids go to the army?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: For boys you go to army, for girls you work somewhere.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Wow, to go on top of that as well—as girls, if you did not get accepted into schools would you have to go to the army?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, as girl I don't have to.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Were there girls that went to the army?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No girls went to the army?&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, no girls don't go to the army but you can work in the army if you want. Like if you want you can work in the kitchen, or if you really want maybe you can apply to be in the army but I know nobody, it was unheard of.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Have you, um, since you left in 1989, have you returned?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, how was going back for the first time?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: The first time I took all my kids to the town where I grow up, we spend like one day there and second time I went with Zachary and we went to Russia, we went to Moscow, we went to Leningrad, and Berdychiv, and I think that we had a great time, he had a little bit of a taste of Russia and a little bit of a taste of Ukraine, and we traveled, we took public transportation everywhere so for him, so I think that it was good for him.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Now so I know you left legally from Russia, but if you were a person that maybe escaped would you go back still today? Would you ever think about returning?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, even now I would not want to go to Russia.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Would they like, try to capture you though, if you were illegal?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: They might. Yeah. They might. I mean I left as legal, but even if I go back to Russia, first of all I always need a visa. If I want to go to this country I have to apply for visa. And second of all, you know, you never know what happens, it is not a stable country so I would not take a chance. Especially now I will not go.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: But since you're legal you can take your kids.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, my kids can go, but we don't plan on going now.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Also, now do you want to segue again, I guess?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Sure.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you want to elaborate on the culture? In one of our classes we were talking about the differences between the US and Russia and, uh like, just the differences between Russian lifestyle and values and American values. Like for instance, one kid in our class brought up that, like, his drink a lot, and like, I do not know if that's a thing. He is Russian.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It is not that they drink a lot, but it is part of the Russian culture. Where like, if there was a holiday, sometimes people drink lots. Not that you have to but they drink, and another thing, why people drink a lot is because back in Russia life is so bad. So it helps you get over all the bad things that have happened. But it's not like mandatory, it’s not like all Russian people drink. This is not true. Some people, there is a lot of alcoholics, yes, but again, it is happening maybe more than in America.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What about, like, Russian values—like, America, I know we are big on, like, sports and music and entertainment, is that prevalent in Russia? I know you guys love hockey.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, when I grew up it was different because all sports that you play, you play for free, you don't pay for it but if you talented, you talented, you can play sports. If you're not talented there is no way, even if you enjoy this sport nobody is going to spend time with you. So you’re out, you can do this for yourself, like here I know my Zachary and all my kids play basketball, and maybe they were not the best at this, but you know they play anyway. You go and you have fun, you enjoy, you don't have to be the best, you can just enjoy this game. In Russia competition is so bad that you have to be number one.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So competition is a big part of Russian lifestyle?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Absolutely. It's like saying do it no matter what you have to do. But people also like movies, they go a lot out, they like movies, they like traveling, they give kids good educations. And I sense that also in Russia people travel a lot, especially now.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You mean like travel throughout the country, I know people aren't allowed to leave the country.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, they travel around the country a lot, like my parents used to take me like every year to somewhere in the Ukraine. Just go to mountains resort or somewhere, just to see different areas. Also different in Russia is the difference between Ukrainian Russian kids and American kids. As a kid I would have to work on the field.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: On the farm?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: On the farm, like I grew up in a town so we didn't have any farm, but they used to pick us up on buses, drive a half hour to the farm and you would do whatever is asked of you, you would pick potatoes, pick carrots.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Who were you working for?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: The government, it is the same in the college. You go to college mandatory in the fall. You go and then, on your free time you pick up potatoes, you pick up carrots.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Wait, this is on your free time? Like when you were away from school?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, so like, you have break, but we don't have break, you have to go and work on the farm. It is not only when you were a kid, when I graduated from university and I got a job also in a different town, even I had like Master in Science and I would still have to go and work for the field. So it did not matter what position you had, you had to go and work on the field. And I remember once we went to pick up carrot, and all day you go and you take those stupid carrot, and I close my eyes and the only dream I had was going to the field and picking up those carrots and I hated it, and potato also not easy because potato is small and you have to go and put it in the bucket, and then you have to go somewhere with the bucket and it’s very heavy. Also, in Russia they count how much buckets of potato you get. It is not like you are going for fun, you are going to get the most potato.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So, they even make that competition?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It is not competition, but you have to bring, for example, 100 buckets of potatoes a day. So you go and you work as a slave because you have to do it. As a kid can you imagine having to work in the garden? This was different, this was mandatory, and for a lot of kids it was normal but I grew up in a town, for kids that grew up in the village the mandatory work was all summer to help parents on the field.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did they get paid?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No. As a kid, you never pay your kid.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do you think that this still goes on today?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I am not sure, I sense that I have no idea. I do not know if this happens today. I am sure that kids help parents now too. But it depends on the family.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Have you been back to the Ukraine?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, I went with Zachary once, we stayed for three days in Moscow also, and three days in St. Petersburg, and two in the town where I grew up. In the summer, we went to the river where there was a beautiful beach and we took a swim. It was nice, there probably was all the people at the beach stare at Zachary because he is American.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How do they know?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Because you can see. You can see. But when we went places I would ask people directions and he would stay far away.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Do they not like Americans?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I would say that they do not like Americans.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Why not?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You have to ask Russian people.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Why do you think?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Because part of the Russian culture and the way that Russian propaganda works they say that Russia is the best. We have the best cars, the best people, the best product. They do not like when somebody better than they are so even if they have nothing they still see themselves as the best. But Russia also very rich. Like there are many museums and concerts where my parents would take me to.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What was it like growing up in a time like the Cold War for you?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I was a small kid.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did you not like the United States? Because I can imagine that Russia would try to use propaganda to turn you against us.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It is also from your family, like my parents would never talk about this, but I knew that they were not a big fan of Russian government. The way how sometimes they would talk about Russian government, but they were afraid to say the truth to me, so you go to school and keep your mouth shut.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And what would they say in school?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: They would say that Russia is the best country in the world.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So, how did you not buy into that?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Because it—also, back in Russia there was a program on the radio that was illegal, it was called </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Voice of America</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. It was in Russian language. Russian government did not like people to listen, but my father would listen to this every morning. He used to wake up at 3 o'clock in the morning and for a half hour just to listen very quietly, because he does not want any neighbors to know that he listen to this radio station.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What was it?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It was </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Voice of America</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">, voice from United States.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Wait so it was at 3:30 in the morning for a half hour every day?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, almost everyday. But you don't hear a good connection because Russian government would try to put something to block it.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: What would they talk about on the radio show?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: On the radio show, for example, when the President of Russia died, Leonid Brezhnev, in 1980, my father woke up and told me in the morning that Brezhnev died. I say listen to Russian TV, he is still alive. And he said no I listened to </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">Voice of America</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> and they said that he died yesterday. They said the truth about Russia, they said the truth about America and some people believe in this more, some people believe in this less. Some people want to build life in Russia, I have relatives in Russia who still live in Ukraine and they still think that this is the best country and they will never ever leave this country and they have nothing. And it is not only financially, forget about financially, because as poor as they are in Russia not everybody is poor, they have a lot of rich people now. But they had no values, they never go to synagogue, they are afraid to practiced Judaism, they did not raise kids to be Jewish, but they do not care, they just want to live in this country. Not everybody is ready for change, for us, my husband and I, it was easy, we were young and we had no kids. For people who are a little bit older, you have to understand they already built life in Russia, they already achieved something, they have good job, they have good position, they have maybe an apartment, they have kids—when you go to a different country it is not easy. You do not speak the language, so how are you going to find a job? Who wants to hire you if you do not have any experience in America? You can be genius but you have to explain to people that you know this and that you can work better than somebody else. So it was not easy to start life in a different country but if you have this, if you want to achieve this and you stick to this you can achieve it no matter what country you go to and what you do. If you go to college and you say maybe this is not the best college or maybe this is not the best environment but I want to be an accountant or I want to be an electrician if you stick to a goal you can achieve it no matter where you are. The same comes from people in different countries, they come here; my first job was I worked in the fruit and vegetables store as a sales rep. And I did not say anybody that I had a master degree—I did not want them to know, I thought that they would not hire me—but what it gave me was the opportunity to meet new people and to talk to people about everything I needed to know, even about apples. In the place I grew up we had two types of apples, and here there is twenty types of apples so I learned a lot. I met a lot of people that helped me out with the language, talking to customers helped me with the language. And when we first got to the country I was pregnant with my first son and while my husband did not have a job he made sure that every day he would learn twenty new words. And every day, he would wake up at six o'clock in the morning and study until two o'clock in the morning every day. Just to learn how to read and how to write and just how to communicate with people to find any job to survive. And eventually he got a job as an engineer after a few years and he work a lot of different jobs in America like in the supermarket and a lot of different jobs. But one day he got a job as an engineer and then he got his license in America, he passed all tests in English to get his license and he is licensed to practice in all tri-state area now. Another difference between Russia and America, since I have children here, if you have a child here you out of work for 6 weeks. In Russia it is different; in Russia if you have a child you get paid and miss a year and a half of work. For one year they pay you full salary and for a half of a year they give you like a half salary. And if you have another child you can stay home for another year, also you have two months before you give birth, so they care about newborns because when you have a newborn it is very hard to take care of that child and put it in a daycare at six weeks old. But when your child is almost two years old it is a different story. Like my sister she has two kids and didn't work. She had her first kid and didn't work for two years and had another kid another two years later. So, this way you stay more time with your family. And you will still keep your job.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And you like this about Russia?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes I like this about Russia, and another thing I like about Russia is kids do not have to make arrangements with each other. You know, “Can my son come over and play with your son tomorrow at three after school?” Where I grew up I never asked my parents if I can go to my friends' house. What I would do after school is go outside, knock on my friends' door and we would play and have fun. And my kids from my childhood are still best friends to this day, it is incredible.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I thought it was surprising when you said that not many people are religious in Russia, because actually people in our class that did not have anybody to interview are actually going to an Orthodox Ukraine church in Vestal, um, is religion a big propaganda in Russia also?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: A lot of changes happened after I left in 1990, a lot of churches and synagogues and mosques opened and people started to pray again. Maybe 70% of Russian people go to church now, when I grew up maybe 5% of Russian people went to church and—</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Who went?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Only older people who did not work anymore so they were not afraid to go. I'll tell you one more thing that is very different between Russia and the United States. Every year they go to school and get a new set of classmates. In Russia the classmates you get in first grade are the same classmates you are going to graduate with in the 10th grade. The class does not change. It is the same thirty kids in the school.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Even if they move?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: If they move then to another school it is a different story. But I went to the same school, with the same kids, and went in the same class from first grade until tenth grade. So, I made lifelong friends.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Would you say a lot of your friends are in Russia or elsewhere?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Some still live in Russia, some in other countries, but we all keep in touch because we are so close. That is what going to school from first-tenth grade does to you. In Russia, you stick with your group, you do not get to have other classmates. This can be a good and a bad thing.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You said you went to school from first to tenth grade, not first to twelfth grade?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, when I went to school it was very different, I am not sure if it is the same now. When I grew up in Russia you had ten years in school. We had elementary school from first to third grade, middle school until eighth grade, and high school was nine and ten. After eighth grade people have a choice, they can go to school of engineering school or different school, you don't have to stay in school till 10th grade. But you do not have to go to college, after eighth grade you go to a high school with specialty. I went to school till tenth grade. My husband did a specialty school after tenth grade, but not after eighth grade where he did engineering. Like here we have something called books where it is a trade school and it is the same thing but it is four years here like if you want to be a registered nurse. Here you go to college, in Russia after eighth you can go to school to become a nurse.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: How old is an eighth grader?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You start school when you are seven years old and graduate at seventeen—also break, there are different breaks during school year.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Wouldn't you go to the farm?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Not during full year.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When would you go to school?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: School started September 1st and ended in June. And then in July and August you could do whatever you want.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: When do you go to the fields?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: And in the fall you would work in the fields because it was mandatory and that is when the harvest is.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Again, we are segueing again, but how do you view Russia, like politically? Do you think they are acting as aggressors? Do you think there will be a second Cold War? Are you in favor with Putin and his policy?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I am not a favor of Putin, I sense he is corrupt.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Did you like Gorbachev?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes I like Gorbachev, but I do not like Putin now because he thinks that he is tsar.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you would call Putin a tsar? You think he is running Russia in an old fashion way?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes I think he is a tsar, I do not like what he did to Ukraine, I thought that it was not fair, because so many innocent people died and I still think Russia is a corrupted country, along with Ukraine. Both are very corrupt. I do not think that Russian politics right now, I mean the government, is not nice. I do not like it. Also not a lot of people in Russia support Putin. There is opposition.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: It does not seem like he is being from power anytime soon though?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: No, no you're right, he wants to be President of Russia forever. Putin is second Stalin. Some people say he is progressive, yes some views of his are good, but at the same time you cannot trust him and you do not know what he will do and we'll see.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Finally segueing back your decision to come to the United States, was it the best decision that you made?&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, this was the best decision I made in my entire life, I have no regrets, I do not care how hard it was, it was definitely a great decision. It was a great opportunity for my husband and I to live in this country. Also I would not have three children because in Russia it is very hard to have more than one child because you cannot afford it. It was hard for parents to raise kids. But it was best decision for what happened. We have different lifestyle, yes, but I say every day it was a great decision. There is even a holiday in our family, every year on November 3rd or the day we came to America we have a nice dinner and eat dinner together. Most of my kids moved on and we are happy we left. We have a lot of friends here and I would say that as much as people complained, in the end everybody that I know that came here does not regret coming here. Sometimes people don't appreciate how good they have until they go to a different country.&nbsp;</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Is there a nice American Russian community in Rockland County?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yeah, not many people in my neighborhood, there is only two of them and we just met them and we have been living here for ten years—but we have a lot of Russian friends.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Final thoughts?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Sometimes people do not appreciate what they have until they leave the country. But Russia is a very rich history and with a bunch of nice people.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Not to Americans?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: I can't say not to Americans, the Russian government is not nice to the government. But a lot of Russian people like American people. For example, me and Zachary went to St. Petersburg about seven years ago. We had plans and we only had three days to accomplish everything and one day it was going to rain so went to place number one and we had to take a boat to the second place because we were late. We asked a lady on a street and she gave us directions but we got lost again. We got lost again and she drove her car and told us to hop in her car and she will give us a ride. It was very nice and she drove us to the boat where it took us to a nice place outside of town. Also, in Russia there is a lot of history, like when you walk on the street, you can see the history and a lot monuments and a lot of nice building and museums, and people are very nice and warm.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: You don't really hear that often.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: The rhetoric.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: We went to my hometown where all my classmates who still live in this town, we came together for one night and we all got together and took us to a nice place and restaurant and we had a great dinner and great time. They are very helpful with each other.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: So you are saying they are very caring?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Very caring people.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: That's because that's how you guys were raised?</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Yes, because schools and family values.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Ok, so that is the concluding of this interview.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Thank you so much.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Thank you so much.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>SK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: My pleasure and if you have any of your questions please give me a call and I will answer your questions.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>ZK</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: We are concluding this interview at 3:39 and have a great day.</span></p> <br /> <p><b>JS</b><span style="font-weight: 400;">: Thank you.</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">(End of Interview)</span></p> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Svetlana Kolesnik Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kolesnik, Svetlana ; Sperber, Jake ; Kolesnik, Zach Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Svetlana Kolesnik is an immigrant from Berdichev, Ukraine. She dealt with persecution growing up due to her religion and felt the only way to feel free was to leave her home country. She immigrated to the United States in 1989 with her husband. She came to the United States in hope to provide her children a better life and a Jewish education. She now lives in New City, New York where where she is active in the Jewish community with her husband and three children. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-03-31 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Sveltana Kolesnik.m4a Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 58:51 Subject The topic of the resource Kolesnik, Svetlana.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Soviet Union—History; Russian; Jews; Migrations; Persecution; Communism and culture--Soviet Union; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; City and town life--New York (State)--New York https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/297e3b31cc26babe5c6393b535a2bf5c.jpeg 865008aa0d68166e13a6b08c62d8ef4a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/528a3022ec88914c59643d1de828479f.MP3 244554363adfb5f4dc91b0a959a67d36 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Robert and JiaJun Zou Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Anna Lewkowicz Biographical Text Anna Lewkowicz was born in Ukraine. She first went to Germany, where she worked in a forced labor camp for five years. Her sister, who was in the United States, obtained the proper papers to have her come to the United States. She is married, has two children and lives in the Southern Tier with her family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 72:03 minutes Date of Interview 6 April 2016 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Language English Material Type audio/mp3 Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Lewkowicz, Anna.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Atrocities; Russification; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AnnaLewkowicz.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Forced labor; World War, 1939-1945; Ukrainian Orthodox Church Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <p class="first-p">Ukrainian Oral History Project</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1"></span><span></span> <p>Interview with: Anna Lewkowicz</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_3"></span><span></span> <p>Interviewed by: Jiajun Zou and Robert S Person</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_5"></span><span></span> <p>Transcriber: Jiajun Zou and Robert S Person</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_7"></span><span></span> <p>Date of interview: 6 April 2016 at 9:54 AM</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_9"></span><span></span> <p>Interview Setting: John the Baptist Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Johnson City, NY</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_11"></span><span></span> <p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_13"></span><span></span> <p>(Start of Interview)</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_15"></span><span></span> <p>Jiajun Zou: So, this is an interview with Mrs. Anna Lewkowicz, and today is<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_17">April 6, and now is 9 o'clock and 54 minute. And, so to begin, we want to know,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_18">can you introduce yourself to us? What is your name, when were you born?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_19"></span><span></span> <p>Anna Lewkowicz: My name is Anna Lewkowicz. And eh--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_21"></span><span></span> <p>Mary Ann Klish (Daughter): Where were you born?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_23"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was born in Ukraine.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_25"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>In Ukraine?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_27"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yabluchnyk.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_29"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It was called "Yabluchnyk."</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_31"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>: </span>Yabluchnyk, Ukraine.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_33"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yabluchnyk? In Ukraine, um-hum. What year were you born?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_35"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>April 9, 1923.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_37"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>1923. um-hum-- And, what we want to know is, so you were born in Ukraine,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_39">when did you immigrate to the United States?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_40"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Um-um-- I first -- I first came to Germany. I worked up there for five<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_42">years; then my sister, she was here in United States, and she sent me paper-- to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_43">come here.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_44"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How old were you at the time?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_46"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_48"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>When she came in nine--, she came August of 19?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_50"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was nine-- eight--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_52"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>1947.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_54"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_56"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>1947? So after World War II?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_58"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Um-hum--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_60"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, so she is part of-- Do you know that history? So she was in forced<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_62">labor camp in Germany--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_63"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That must be a very difficult history for her.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_65"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, yeah, she left home in '42 and-- at the time they were, the Germans<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_67">were snatching people right from their homes to help because all the German men</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_68">were fighting the war, and they wanted workers to manage the farms, etc. So,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_69">they decided instead of being snatched, because they eventually go anyway, they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_70">volunteer-- So my mother and her girlfriend and my mother's cousin who is in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_71">this history book. And I have to show you the story about it, because it is the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_72">same story. Yeah, but they, they volunteer and end it up in different villages</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_73">not far from each other in Germany.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_74"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right. So why did you choose America to be the place to immigrate? Is this--<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_76">So, why is it this country?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_77"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, because my sister has immigrated here and brother. Then she asked me<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_79">if I can come here--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_80"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_82"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Then I come here--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_84"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Another interesting aside, my grandparents, my mother's' parents came here<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_86">to this country and were working in the coal mines in the Pennsylvania area. But</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_87">the time that they came was during the Depression, so they work there for a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_88">couple of years and thought that this is worse than where we came from (Daughter laughed).</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_89"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_91"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And they end up going back, but in the meantime, my aunt was born here and<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_93">my uncle. So when they all went back, her brother and sister were citizens. So</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_94">then they ultimately got here and that's how they were able to bring my mother.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_95">Because they were citizens.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_96"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you, so when you first come here, did you feel comfortable. Is there<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_98">something you remember at the time, was it a good experience, was it a difficult experience?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_99"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It was hard because I didn't speak English but the-- I-- It was okay. I<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_101">lived with my sister. Moved about here, a couple years, then I find a job.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_102"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You find your job in?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_104"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>EJ.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_106"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>In Endicott-Johnson--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_108"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Shoe making, shoe making industry? (Everyone: right)</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_110"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was working upstairs for three years, then I get married--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_112"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Then she had me.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_114"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah-- I had her, and then I-- didn't work in EJ--and then I, another<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_116">one--boy. So, I stayed here because my husband--husband said you take care--our</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_117">children, because we have to pay somebody, we didn't have much money to--you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_118">know-- pay them for that, you know, they watch children.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_119"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, so, you-- Did you met your husband in here or--? And how did you meet<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_121">your husband, he is also working here?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_122"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ukrainian picnic? Ukrainian picnic.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_124"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ukrainian picnic?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_126"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My dad arrived here under the same circumstances.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_128"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Same circumstances.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_130"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>He was in a camp and he came from Germany also. He came a year after my<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_132">mother, he came at 48'. And-- In fact, Migolochok, the guy that went downstairs,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_133">his grandmother was my dad's aunt. And she is the one that brought him here.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_134"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_136"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, that is how the two of them met at the Ukrainian picnic.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_138"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Were you afraid when you first were thinking about coming to America? Like--<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_140">so do you know if there is already a lot of Ukrainians in here?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_141"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wasn't that much Ukrainian.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_143"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I will just ask her in Ukrainian because she knows it better.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_145"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That is great, that is great.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_147"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>немає, no.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_149"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, she wasn't afraid.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_151"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because her sister was here and brother. She was not afraid.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_153"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I live with them.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_155"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Um-hum, right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_157"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So when you moved here, is everything similar or entirely different from<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_159">where you lived in Ukraine?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_160"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Very different. There were houses everywhere</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_162"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_164"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She wasn't used to that.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_166"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>All people are good people. They are all right. They-- and the church was<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_168">full of people, because all the people, they come to church every day, every Sunday.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_169"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, no, no-- I mean-- Your life, not--not the church, you weren't so<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_171">interested about the church.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_172"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I am! Actually.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_174"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, oh, you are.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_176"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Everything you want to share, we are absolutely want to hear it.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_178"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, okay.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_180"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you start coming to church?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_182"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_184"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, no, no, when you start coming to church here, why did you come to this church?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_186"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because my sister and brother, they belong here. So I joined--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_188"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Actually the church she was going to in Ukraine was a Catholic church</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_190"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So she changed her religion? Is that correct?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_192"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, she didn't look at it that way. This is how my mother put, she says<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_194">one God is everywhere, so whether is it this church or that church, what is the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_195">difference? So she said if this church was good enough, and of course, it wasn't</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_196">this church, it was the old church that's just around the corner.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_197"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What is that church? Is it Ukrainian Orthodox?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_199"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It was Orthodox.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_201"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So in your mind, no matter Catholic or Orthodox, you can go both as long as<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_203">you believe in God?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_204"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah! Some of those-- something happen down there in Catholic Church, I go<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_206">some there.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_207"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right. Do most Ukrainians feel the same way like you did? Do they feel they<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_209">can go anywhere?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_210"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Lots of people came, they went to Catholic Church.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_212"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They went to Catholic Church.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_214"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>In fact, um----.not everybody felt that way, because I remember my mother<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_216">telling me that, there were people in the Catholic church lobbying for my mother</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_217">to go there. You know they will come, and say, gee, you know you were in a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_218">Catholic church over there, why are you going to an Orthodox one here? So my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_219">mother said, well because my sister brought me here, and if this church is good</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_220">enough for her, it is good enough for me. And it wasn't so much about Catholic</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_221">and Orthodox as it was about going to church, and you know, praying to God,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_222">didn't matter.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_223"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right. So--but--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_225"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I remember how Czebiniak and the others wanted you to go there-- came to our<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_227">house, and the--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_228"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>See there was an actual gentleman from Sacred Heart that came to my mothers'--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_230"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And ask me when I am going to come--going to go to the church.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_232"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>The Catholic Church?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_234"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Catholic Church-- No, I am going to--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_236"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Go where my sister goes--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_238"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah my sister goes, I told him.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_240"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>But yeah, back in the day, they did lobby; to them it was a big difference,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_242">but never really to my mother.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_243"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So when you go to the church, what is it like? Are there just Ukrainians?<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_245">Were there different kinds of people in the church that you went to?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_246"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>All kind of people. It is Ukrainian and English service.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_248"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, are you talking about when she first came?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_250"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Like the church she went to, is it primarily Ukrainian immigrants?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_252"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>The church she went to here? Or the church she went to in Ukraine?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_254"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Um-- Both.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_256"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And what was it in Ukraine? -- was an Orthodox church, was a<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_258">Ukrainian--maybe some place was was--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_259"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It was a Greek Catholic one, it was a Greek Catholic one in Ukraine that was<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_261">the one that was in the village.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_262"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Um-- Did you have any family left in Ukraine when you came to the U.S?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_264"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh yes, I have sister and brother, but they all die.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_266"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They all die, they've all died since then.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_268"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Due to the--German atrocities?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_270"></span><span></span> <p>Everyone: No, no, no.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_272"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, they never were--um, they didn't go to Germany, they were ah--they were<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_274">older than my mother, I guess they didn't want them (daughter laughed) tell me,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_275">I don't know. I know they all die, they all in fact, during the war, my mother's</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_276">village got burned. And the Polish came during the war time and just burn</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_277">everything down, so where my mother's family live now was not where she grew up.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_278"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, it seems that-- So when you moved here right, you--what kind of<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_280">people do you see in this community? Was it mostly Ukrainian? Were they--.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_281"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>All kinds--.Slavic--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_283"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>A lot of Slavic people</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_285"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>A lot of Slavic people-- un-hum</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_287"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Polish, Russian--yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_289"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>un-hum-- Did you feel--? How did you feel about them, and how did they feel<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_291">about you? Like did they see you--?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_292"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They don't care.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_294"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They don't care.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_296"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They were your friends?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_298"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's right--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_300"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I have, you know, couple friends, they choose here. And some, lots of, you<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_302">know, people went to Catholic Church.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_303"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, right--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_305"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Polish church, and to me, all friends.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_307"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So people were very friendly because you all immigrants here?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_309"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_311"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What about people in the town, in Binghamton, were they treating you all<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_313">welcoming or--.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_314"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>американська (American)--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_316"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>yeah, they was nice to me, I was working in a factory, as well you know, I<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_318">didn't speak English. They was very nice to me. They helped me.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_319"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That sounds very good. And, so, after you work at EJ--You worked for EJ, Right?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_321"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_323"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Where else did you work? So you stay at home, take care of children?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_325"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_327"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And your husband was working?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_329"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, he was working in EJ.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_331"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And he had two jobs, he was also working. His aunt, they had a restaurant, a<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_333">bar and a restaurant and he was a bartender on weekends.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_334"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, so he continued this job--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_336"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Hmm--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_338"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>For? How--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_340"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Two jobs, because I didn't work and he had two children, so--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_342"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Is this something common in Ukraine families? That a woman stay at home,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_344">take care of children, husband's working?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_345"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She said everybody works--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_347"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Everybody worked in the farms.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_349"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>In Ukraine, everyone worked on the farms?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_351"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Even when my mother was little, she worked.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_353"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right. So, Ukraine community is very different than other communities<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_355">because both people work.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_356"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_358"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, even back then.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_360"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, men and women were treated equally? I assume.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_362"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do they men have the same rights as women?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_364"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I think-- men in Ukraine--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_366"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>He was the head.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_368"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>-- has more power than women.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_370"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Is still the head even though you do the same work?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_372"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_374"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>-- working in a farm--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_376"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>un-hum</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_378"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So when you were in Ukraine, what do you remember now, long time ago when<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_380">you were a child, what do you remember? Like anything, childhood activities?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_381"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Memories?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_383"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I--I went to school, I was 12 or 8. Then--I finished, I have two 4 grades in<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_385">the school. Because my parents they want me to work in the farms.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_386"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They want you to work in the farm.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_388"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>In the farm--un-hum.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_390"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She doesn't have other than 3rd or 4th grade education that is it for my<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_392">mother. They want, they pull her out and say that needed her help on the farms,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_393">so they--.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_394"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_396"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, so is because they need her to work?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_398"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_400"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And they cannot afford to have you go to school.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_402"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_404"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Are you the only child in the family?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_406"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, my mother had 9-- children.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_408"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>9 children-- All of them work in the farm?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_410"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Three died--no, no, three died. And-- I went here, and all--. I have sister,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_412">I, and I have two brother, they stay over there. And they have three, nine</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_413">Ukraine. They still work in the farm.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_414"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So you remember, you were working in the farm--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_416"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_418"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Anything else you think you remember, childhood friends? Anything about--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_420"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you have stories?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_422"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No stories.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_424"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you bring anything with you from Ukraine, like objects-- that, brought<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_426">for memory?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_427"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, I don't think so.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_429"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, because she was coming from Germany and not from home.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_431"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, and--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_433"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And at one point they thought when the war ended, they they came and told<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_435">them you know you don't have to work here in these German farms anymore. So they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_436">heard there was a bus that was taking people back to Ukraine, so their intent</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_437">was to go back to Ukraine. So her and her girlfriend waited because they said</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_438">this truck or whatever, really wasn't a bus, was a truck, was going to come and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_439">take them. So they waiting, and then my mother said a German, I mean..ah,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_440">Ukrainian soldier walked by and said girls what you doing here. They said well,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_441">they are waiting for this bus that was going to take them back. And they said</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_442">no, he said, no, don't, don't get on that bus, it's not going take you home,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_443">it's Russians that are going to take you to Siberia, so they flooded to the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_444">woods, and figured out what were they going to do.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_445"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Even then, this was-- hard.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_447"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So she said well, she didn't really want to go back to her German farms<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_449">because she thought they were kind of mean. So, she went back to her</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_450">girlfriend's farm and asked could they work, could they continue to work there.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_451">And ah--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_452"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They say yes!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_454"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So they continued to work there.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_456"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>We-- We told them what happened, and he said stay here so long you can, and<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_458">after, you know, soldiers came and says you can work on our farms.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_459"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It was American soldiers this time.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_461"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>American.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_463"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And they you, you know, you're done, and that is how she ended it up in the camp.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_465"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_467"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And it wasn't a matter of going back, and that is why she didn't have<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_469">anything (AL: yeah) because she just left with um--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_470"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Nothing.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_472"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Some clothes-- to to work in Germany, it is not like-- she didn't have<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_474">anything from home.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_475"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right. So, during your early life, you seem not to hate the Russians or<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_477">Germans, right? Do-- do you think--look at them as if they are a group of people</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_478">or you just think that people suffer. Did you ever categorize them as, you know,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_479">Russians or Poles, or Americans?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_480"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No-- No--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_482"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You never hate them--as a group.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_484"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She just thought that it was wartime and--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_486"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_488"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That was just result of war, of the war.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_490"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_492"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's amazing, because I think a lot people will begin to hate the whole<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_494">group of people.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_495"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh right, just like the Vietnam War, everybody hated the Vietnamese-- yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_497"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So when you were working in the farms, so--um, is that all you remember,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_499">like every day you work on the farm--Anything that makes you, um-- What else do</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_500">you do besides working on the farm?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_501"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You talking about home or you talking about Germany.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_503"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Germany?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_505"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Um, the time when you were in Ukraine.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_507"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker">AL<strong>:</strong></span><strong>&nbsp;I--just work.</strong></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_509"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Just work? Right?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_511"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Was this work difficult for you?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_513"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_515"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, it's easy, you were laid back?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_517"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My father and I worked together.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_519"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Work together.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_521"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you go to church regularly?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_523"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, sometime I don't feel good so I can't go. But most of the time I went.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_525"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, so, did you have any sense of being a Ukrainian or more like being a<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_527">peasant, someone who work on the farm, did you ever feel a strong sense, I am a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_528">Ukrainian! I am--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_529"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_531"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Nationalism--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_533"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, because today, it was not Ukraine, it was Polish. So I went to school,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_535">and I learn Polish, read and write, and uh--it was together nice, the Polish and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_536">ah, yeah.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_537"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>back then--ah-- No, it was a Polish school.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_539"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>--not Ukraine.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_541"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, they were in charge.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_543"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_545"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Polish writing, reading, teacher was, you know teacher was, Po--Polish.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_547"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And that is completely okay to you?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_549"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_551"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What about students, they are mostly Ukrainians?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_553"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, all was, you know, Po--Polish and Ukraine.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_555"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ah, it was mixed?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_557"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So people-- it really didn't matter your nationality?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_559"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, people just live together--. we were young, doesn't matter.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_561"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You also are a senior parish member here in the church, am I correct?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_563"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, she is one of the oldest one. Her--all have immigrated, she and her<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_565">cousin which end it up marrying her girlfriend, the three of them that were in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_566">Germany. He is the oldest one. He's, ah, he was 95 in January, but, he started</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_567">getting dementia, he doesn't leave the house.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_568"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How did you become the senior parish member in this church?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_570"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>[laughs] Everybody else die off, everybody else die off [everyone laughs].</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_572"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Hehe, everyone respected you right?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_574"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, no-- how did you become the oldest parishioner to--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_576"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, I was younger, was here all the time, I went to church, same church.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_578"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, I am assuming a lot about the church has changed since you first got here?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_580"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Um.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_582"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_584"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They changed.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_586"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How has it changed?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_588"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Before was more Ukrainian in the church, now is all English.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_590"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, it was more speaking Ukrainian at the time?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_592"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_594"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, definitely, it was all Ukrainian.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_596"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_598"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because they were immigrants or?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_600"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>All people-- came from Europe.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_602"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>The church was started by, the church was started by, I mean when I was<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_604">little, everything the service was entirely in Ukrainian. It was entirely in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_605">Ukrainian, and ah, and our priest at the time, when I was little, had to say, he</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_606">was ah, he was ah-- he came from Ukraine just like my mother, so he had similar</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_607">history, you know, so-- yeah it is a good fit.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_608"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>But you said things have changed over the years?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_610"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh yeah--in the church.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_612"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Everyone now speak English?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_614"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Intermarries-- oh, I can, I tell you this. There, my mother launched a<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_616">protest here in the church, she and ah--her cousin and her girlfriend, they all</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_617">end, the three that were in Ukraine, I mean went to Germany, they all end it up</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_618">here. My mother got here first, and got married, and then the other two couldn't</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_619">get here until a couple years later. They didn't get here till-- 1950? 1951?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_620"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>1951.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_622"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>1951, but they ultimately--ah, all belong to the same church, and they all<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_624">sing in the choir, which was all entirely Ukrainian, and the church was entirely</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_625">Ukrainian. Well speaking, you know there was intermarriages,</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_626"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah. That's--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_628"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And there were a lot people didn't understand entirely Ukrainian, so our<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_630">priest we had at the time, the one we had for 40 plus years, wanted to introduce</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_631">English into the service. And I can remember, like I said, my mother was, my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_632">mother sing in the choir with a whole bunch of them and they protested and left</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_633">the choir because they started introducing English. And they were really upset</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_634">about it.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_635"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>When you said intermarriage, you mean between the Eastern European groups<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_637">or, like Poles, Germans, or who--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_638"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh intermarrying here? No, just with English-speaking people.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_640"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>In general.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_642"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right. They didn't know Ukrainian language.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_644"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker">JZ:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They didn't know Ukrainian language. And they were the ones who are asking<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_646">for English.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_647"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_649"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So how did you feel at the time, you were angry at the time right?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_651"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah--I was mad because more people, they want English.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_653"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>There was a meeting.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_655"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah. They were outnumbered.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_657"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh no--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_659"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, the Ukrainian-speaking were outnumbered. So, I mean, you know, it was<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_661">ah-- It was fair and square vote, they just didn't like the outcome. So I think</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_662">with the choir-- (MK laughs)</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_663"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Now, now, how frequently is Ukrainian spoken in the church?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_665"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Not much now.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_667"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_669"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Not much? So, it's been a drastic change since you first got here?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_671"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It is been gradual, now what happened was it was supposed to be probably the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_673">last ten, fifteen years. It was, there was, another vote at an annual meeting</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_674">and we were supposed to have um-- three weeks of all English and one week of</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_675">half Ukrainian, half English.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_676"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right. I read this in the St. John's Baptist Orthodox Ukrainian Church<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_678">website, they say mostly English, but they also want to respect the old Ukrainians.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_679"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, but now there's less Ukrainian. That rule is no longer in play<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_681">because--and we uh-- In fact my husband just had to do about it a couple years</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_682">ago because he was the president when that rule was put in place and uh, our new</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_683">priest here um-- see, my husband's got an opposite vision for my mother. My</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_684">husband feels that in order for this church to survive, it's got to be English</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_685">because there's no immigrants that are coming are coming here and it's very</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_686">unlikely. So he says, you know, in order to keep those happy, and then there's a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_687">lot of people that left. They grew up in the church that didn't know any</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_688">Ukrainian ah-- you know, to try to get them back, you have to keep the English.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_689">But um, our priest has a different mindset and I think there's two reasons here.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_690">Um, the reason, um, he thinks if we have some Ukrainian in the church, that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_691">maybe somebody that comes to visit might you know, it might keep them here. So</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_692">he's been throwing in things, um, like intermittently during the services-- put</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_693">in more Ukrainian.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_694"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right. So, what you were angry about is that you don't understand English<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_696">and you cannot pray because everyone else is speaking English.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_697"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, I understand, but not much.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_699"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, and is the community also, many people speak English? And is the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_701">community also becoming more and more English than--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_702"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>The Church community?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_704"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>The community where you lived in here, like the Ukrainian community in<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_706">general. Was it becoming more assimilated?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_707"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, it's died off. It's died off. Sacred Heart is more Ukrainian speaking<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_709">that particular church is. And um, you know, this one not as much. I think, if</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_710">you look at this church and that church I think there's more, I think they may</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_711">have, they have two services there if I'm not mistaken and they have a Ukrainian one--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_712"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>All English--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_714"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>All Ukrainian, and then they have one that's all English.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_716"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, it's more Ukraine--you know, the service is Ukrainian.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_718"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>But my mother's never been compelled to go there though [MK laughs].</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_720"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, why would you not want to go do the one in Ukrainian if you believe<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_722">that God is everywhere?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_723"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, I didn't have car, I have to walk. [Everyone laughs].</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_725"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>But if you did would you have gone anyway?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_727"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_729"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_731"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, you would've stayed here.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_733"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You're loyal, you consider yourself loyal to this church?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_735"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_737"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, she is.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_739"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Even though many things have changed in this church?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_741"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_743"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, and she wasn't happy about it, but she still continued to come.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_745"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you try? Is that the time when you tried to learn English very hard?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_747"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, I went to night school. American Civic Association. They uh--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_749"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They had classes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_751"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>ESL, ESL. Yeah American Civic, yeah ESL. They teach people in English. They<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_753">came to Ukrainian community or--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_754"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And that was my downfall. When my parents were going to classes and they had<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_756">to become citizens, so they had to take a test. So, um, my brother and I, in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_757">fact, when I started school I didn't learn any, I didn't know any English. I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_758">just knew all Ukrainian when I started Kindergarten. I mean I, you know, you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_759">quickly learn. So I learned and um, so when my brother and I were in grade</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_760">school we were helping my parents to pass the test. So we spoke all in English</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_761">and as a result of that we liked the fact that we were speaking English to our</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_762">parents because previously we didn't. And, um, we felt more like the other kids</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_763">in school. The fact that we were speaking-- So that was sort of our downfall, so</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_764">then my parents would continue to speak to us in Ukrainian and we would</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_765">sometimes answer in English and as we got older it was more and more, so now my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_766">brother speaks poorly in Ukrainian, but understands everything. And uh, I'm a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_767">little better at it than my brother.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_768"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, she--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_770"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, she go to Ukraine.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_772"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, I ended up going to Ukraine.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_774"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, how did you feel about all these changes? So, your children begin to<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_776">speak more English, um, were you ok with these changes?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_777"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_779"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, you never pressed them to, you know, keep Ukrainian language.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_781"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_783"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I wish she had. [Laughs]. I wish she had and I would've been, um--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_785"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well you still----Ukrainian.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_787"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well I still, yeah, it was ok because she came in with me--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_789"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because the house I talk Ukrainian, not English.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_791"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>In the house you speak Ukrainian?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_793"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, they learn.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_795"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, you mentioned the citizenship test and oftentimes I think nowadays they<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_797">say you have to give up the loyalty to your home country, right?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_798"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhm.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_800"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you have to do the same saying that I am no longer Ukrainian, I'm<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_802">American. Did you have to do that?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_803"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, no. Uh uh.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_805"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_807"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I'm sure she did but she probably doesn't remember, but to her she's always<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_809">gonna, her Ukra-- I mean when Ukraine has got all those problems now, it really</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_810">affected, it really affects her.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_811"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It affects her?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_813"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah! I mean she's really troubled by it, so she's always going to be<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_815">Ukrainian at heart.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_816"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Even though on the paper it must say you're American now!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_818"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, even though--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_820"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I read English newspaper, you know.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_822"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Have you been back to the Ukraine since you first came here?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_824"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, just once.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_826"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Just once? When was that?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_828"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>There was not too good because it still was--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_830"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Communist, communist and they--When was that?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_832"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>1980--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_834"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>In the 80s?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_836"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, you went back to Ukraine in the 80's?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_838"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, I went up there to see my sister.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_840"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Family visit. So you, I think that's a good transition. When you went back<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_842">how has it different? How has Ukraine itself changed?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_843"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_845"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You were a child when you were in Ukraine, but when you go back you are much older.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_847"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, we can stay in the house at that time. We can raise a family.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_849"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You couldn't see the family other than in the Russian hotel. It was all<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_851">Russified. Everything.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_852"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Russified?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_854"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhm. It was all, uh, it was basically Russia. That's what I remember her<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_856">telling me. She wanted to go, the whole purpose of the visit was to see her</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_857">family. And the family had to come to the hotel. Family couldn't go, but what</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_858">they did was, they snuck there.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_859"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, they took taxi.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_861"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They found somebody and of course the taxi was somebody that they paid off.<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_863">Someone had a car and they took them to the village. But I mean, it was always</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_864">like looking over your shoulder nervous.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_865"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>We said maybe, four five hours, we have to go in the hotel.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_867"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Were you scared? Were there people there scared of this communism and anything?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_869"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, no. Well, there was scared to, you know, be protest.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_871"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>There were protests?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_873"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_875"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_877"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Speaking Ukrainian.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_879"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They were afraid of the Russians, but they didn't protest. [Speaking<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_881">Ukrainian]. They were, you know, they were weak. My mother used the wrong word there.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_882"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, you see them as Russians more than--?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_884"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_886"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So they're not like Soviets, Communists, but more as a different people. The<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_888">Russians trying to change--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_889"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, she calls them "communists," the "communists" [All laugh].</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_891"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>But you use the word "Russified."</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_893"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, they're still communists now.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_895"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How has--How has Ukraine been Russified?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_897"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well--for me when I went back, and that was in the 90's, I went to the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_899">capital of Ukraine and my brother and I--my brother was, went to be a godfather</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_900">to one of my cousin's kids and his wife didn't want to go because she was born</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_901">here and doesn't know a word of English -- Ukrainian I mean (laughs)-- So I went</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_902">with my brother and the biggest thing that I noticed, I was in the capital of</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_903">Ukraine and I went into a store and I didn't understand what the heck the lady</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_904">was saying (all laughed) because she was talking all in Russian. I thought well</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_905">how could this be? This is the capital of Ukraine. How could people be talking</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_906">in Russian? But that's what it is.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_907"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_909"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's interesting.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_911"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, everything, most people in Ukraine, were speaking Russian?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_913"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Other than the family, yeah and most everybody else was like, well yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_915"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_917"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You had to really listen, I mean Ukrainian and Russian are similar, but I<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_919">mean I had difficulties. You know, navigating the city just because of, you know</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_920">the language. I'm thinking, well, hey, it's Ukraine, I know Ukrainian, no problem.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_921"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right. So, you mention language, so, what else can tell somebody is<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_923">Ukrainian. So, when you go back you see people speak Russian, but can you find</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_924">other traits that might show, oh I know, this is a Ukrainian! Is there some</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_925">other ways you can identify somebody as Ukrainian? The way they food, for</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_926">example, or culture, customs--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_927"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mannerisms?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_929"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How did you know that they were Ukrainian and not Russian?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_931"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They talk Ukrainian.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_933"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They talk Ukrainian--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_935"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>More, they talk more Russian than Ukrainian, but they was Ukrainian people.<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_937">Girls in a store--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_938"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So they, so, besides language do they dress a certain way? Like, do they,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_940">um, greet people a certain way? Like, is Ukrainian culture something different</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_941">from Russians?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_942"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They look the same. [laughs] Now that, uhh, everybody's trying to, they're<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_944">all trying to get Americanized, you know, they're um--the interesting thing is</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_945">style is a big deal for people in Ukraine because I know we send packages there</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_946">and my mother would send packages of things that she thought--you know, she</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_947">thought--. You know, my mother had a different--before she went there she had a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_948">different conception of, you know, she left when the place, when everything was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_949">really poor and people had no clothes. Like, she said she had very little</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_950">clothing, and she shared shoes with her sister and all that. So then she was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_951">sending packages, she was sending clothes and she was thinking well, you know,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_952">anything they get is going to be wonderful. So my mother would spend all this</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_953">money on sending all these packages and wasn't until we went there, my brother</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_954">and I, and we said, "Well, hey look, these people are more stylish than, you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_955">know like, my cousins were more stylish than I was-- they wouldn't just wear any</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_956">jeans, it had to see Lee or it had to say this that or the other." They were</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_957">like label conscious which just blew me away because I thought, you know, here,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_958">different? So in other words--they-- even though my family came from a village,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_959">and they worked from Lviv which is the biggest city near there, they didn't want</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_960">to look like a villager--You know, they want to to, so like some of the clothes,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_961">probably most of which my mother was sending, I don't even think they wore, like</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_962">my cousin and that.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_963"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What year was that?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_965"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Um-- my mother was sending--Uh, you know, late 90's she was sending<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_967">packages, you know, but I'm saying the last--Um, oh probably five or six years</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_968">ago she was sending packages, but it was mostly to her brother and sister, of</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_969">course they're gone, and her sister-in-law they've all passed away since then.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_970">So, my mother doesn't send anything anymore.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_971"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What were you sending?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_973"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They want money.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_975"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They wanted money? I think that happens to every immigrant community.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_977"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>If you send money, hundred dollars, you have to pay another two hundred.<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_979">Through postage.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_980"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, it wasn't postage, it was through an agency where they actually<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_982">delivered the money to the person and make sure that--because there's so much</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_983">corruption in Ukraine that there were some packages um-- I don't know, did we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_984">lose one package? We might've lost one because of the corruption, just the post</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_985">office, and some of the letters my mother would send money in envelopes,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_986">letters, and the letters never got there because I think the people in the post</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_987">office or whatever were corrupt. And so my mother just send money through an</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_988">agency where you had to pay up front for them to-- I forget what it was.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_989"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They deliver to the house.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_991"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They delivered right to the house.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_993"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You always remember people in like your family in Ukraine and always send<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_995">them money and packages?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_996"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Always.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_998"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I don't send now. I don't send now.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1000"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, right, because they're all gone. When they were alive my mother did.<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1002">Interestingly enough, she did, but her two brothers that were here, did not.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1003"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because they were not able to or--?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1005"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, they were better off than my mother. I think she was more connected to<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1007">the situation because she was here after them. Although, no, my um, younger</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1008">brother did come after her, but he just was not tied to the family he's just</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1009">sort of the black sheep. But my mother still had because she remembered and she</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1010">knew how she left them, they were poor and whatever, and now she's got this</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1011">great life here and she knows that they don't. So yeah, it affected my mother</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1012">more than it affected them.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1013"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, so one thing we talk about how you have immigrated here and you seem<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1015">to like the experience, right? Everything is getting better?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1016"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhm.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1018"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Uh, anything you encounter that you may not like? Like, is there anything<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1020">difficult that you remember? Were you ever discriminated against?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1021"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Was there any bad times?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1023"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I do think so.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1025"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You don't think so? I'm very glad to hear. [All laugh]</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1027"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Much better than up there.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1029"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I'm trying to think if there was anything bad--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1031"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It's ok if there isn't because it's very important--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1033"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, there really isn't.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1035"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How has like the--community outside of the church changed or gotten better?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1037"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You mean like--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1039"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, the community outside of the church. Binghamton in general.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1041"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Johnson City in general--What's changed? Like in Johnson City or in Binghamton.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1043"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Jobs moved out?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1045"></span><span></span> <p><strong>Robert</strong>: Yeah different jobs that people have had, stuff like that.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1047"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I think uh, some people get, hard to get jobs.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1049"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Hard to get jobs? Oh.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1051"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, that's why her grandchildren all left.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1053"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1055"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>All my kids.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1057"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1059"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So-- What kind of jobs were the Ukrainian communities doing? So, you<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1061">mentioned Endicott-Johnson shoe making. What else is there for Ukrainian--?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1062"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>IBM.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1064"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>IBM?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1066"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, they make like--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1068"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Computer software.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1070"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>But what my mother-- The other component of my mother's life, she was with us<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1072">up until the time we went to school and when my brother and I went to school my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1073">mother became a cleaning lady.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1074"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Cleaning lady?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1076"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So she went to various homes. How did you find these jobs?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1078"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's a great question.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1080"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You knew somebody that was, right?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1082"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Some my friends work and they knew those people wanted--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1084"></span><span></span> <p><strong>MK</strong> and <strong>AL</strong>: Cleaning lady.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1086"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Who were you working for? Was it American family?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1088"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>American family. The family was Jewish. They was nice to me. Um--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1090"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>The rest were uh-- American born.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1092"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, lawyer, doctor--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1094"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, so--I know you mentioned this, you mentioned you don't really force<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1096">your children, you don't force your daughter for example, to learn Ukrainian or</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1097">be Ukrainian in certain ways. So, how do you raise your children? In general, do</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1098">you just let them do whatever they want? Or do you have certain rules for your children?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1099"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Was it in a Ukrainian fashion? Like was it in the way that your parents<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1101">raised you, or did you raise her differently since you--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1102"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you raise us like you were raised?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1104"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah that's what we're asking--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1106"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah--I don't think so.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1108"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How was it different than when you were raised?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1110"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>We didn't have any money. We can't buy clothes, nice clothes, nothing like<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1112">that. And um, so, was not too good.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1113"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Not too good--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1115"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhm. But, my family, Mary Ann, she you know, she start working, school. She<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1117">buy herself clothes, nice clothes, yeah.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1118"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Was it satisfying to see that, uh, you know, the improved lifestyle that<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1120">your daughter got to have compared to you?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1121"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Uh huh, uh huh, yes. You know, better than me.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1123"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I guess the goal was to give us a better life than they had but I will tell<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1125">you one thing, I wanted to go to college and my father thought that paying for a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1126">female to go to college was a waste of money.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1127"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1129"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Common thing.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1131"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Common thing.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1133"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1135"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah because he thought you're going to get married, you're going to have<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1137">kids, and it's you know, money's going to go down the drain. It was a waste and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1138">um yeah, it was more important for my brother to get the education or whatever.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1139">Although I did do better than him in school. [All laugh]</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1140"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I'm very glad to hear. What is your position on this? Did you think of your<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1142">daughter like the way her father think of--?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1143"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I wasn't against, I wanted Mary Ann to go to college.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1145"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow. Do you want to empower your daughter to--?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1147"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhm. Uh huh. Same with my son.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1149"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Same thing with your son?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1151"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhm.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1153"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1155"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Didn't have that much money, but they went you know, small college.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1157"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, we went to Broome.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1159"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And you have to work to pay--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1161"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was work.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1163"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yup, she worked five days a week.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1165"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1167"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>House cleaning.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1169"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My husband work two jobs.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1171"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And he worked two jobs and then he got a job from EJ's he got a job at GAF,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1173">and Ansco Film.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1174"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How did EJ treated you? I heard they built a lot of houses and hospitals.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1176"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh yeah, they did.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1178"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They treated you very well? How was it, like, everything in your life taken<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1180">care of?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1181"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My mother always said very positive things about Endicott Johnson and about<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1183">the Johnson family.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1184"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhm.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1186"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That they were good people. Although we did not have an EJ home, um, all of<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1188">the homes over here mostly on the north side were EJ homes.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1189"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And they help lots.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1191"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And there was an EJ medical. I mean our life really revolved around Endicott<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1193">Johnson. Because I can remember walking to the EJ medical for -- um doctor</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1194">visits with my mother and my brother and uh yeah it was EJ medical and--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1195"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's amazing.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1197"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1199"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because oftentimes we hear workers don't like the employers, the employers<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1201">treated workers badly, but EJ seems the exception.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1202"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, yeah EJ they treat nice people, workers.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1204"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They treat workers nicely--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1206"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They build houses, they didn't charge them which was uh--um not much.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1208"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhm. Um, you--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1210"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Medical was free.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1212"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, and you, did you spend a lot of time saving money, to send your<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1214">daughter to school?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1215"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, yes. We didn't, we can, you know-- Pay for--after school they you<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1217">know, they still have to pay, they pay themselves.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1218"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They pay for--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1220"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, we had jobs.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1222"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do you and your husband disagree on things. Like just the daughter going to<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1224">college. Anything else?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1225"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Uh-- We was--advantage that they go to college.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1227"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhm.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1229"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Although, like I say, you know, my father wasn't upset that I was going, but<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1231">he did make that comment to me, little know, yeah you know I'm sending you but</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1232">it's going to be a waste.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1233"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right. [All laugh]</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1235"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Is that something common in Ukrainian families?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1237"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Um, I just think for the--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1239"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>First generation.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1241"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>First generation, immigrant families, yeah. You know, money was tight, you<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1243">know, they're trying to figure out financially how this is all going to work out</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1244">and he's saying, "you know, if you didn't go it wouldn't be such a bad thing.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1245">You're going to get married and have kids and the education is going to go down</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1246">the drain." That was sort of his mental thought there.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1247"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, so do most Ukrainian children have the same experience like yours?<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1249">Like is it very similar? Do you remember any-- do they not go to college or do</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1250">they end up working for EJ as well?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1251"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, like Mary Harder, she didn't go to school. Not everybody went to<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1253">college. Um most of them did. Um, most of them did and just because I think, um,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1254">we had a community college here, Broome, and it was sort of affordable, so to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1255">speak. And really anybody could go if they went part time and had part time jobs</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1256">like I did. You know I--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1257"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1259"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1261"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And did you ever feel more like American? So one thing people say is, people<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1263">get assimilated and no one can feel the same way their parent immigrants feel.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1264">So, did you ever feel conflicted about it? So did you ever notice anything that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1265">your children was different about you? Like, do they say, do they say things</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1266">that you consider--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1267"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They, uh, more education.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1269"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>More education--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1271"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They, uh--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1273"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I never felt um, I can remember--I mean back then there was no sideline<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1275">activities, um-- When I was little most everything revolved around the church.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1276"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Everything revolved around church--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1278"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Uh, one thing I remember when I was little, all my girlfriends had--they<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1280">were Saturday bowling leagues and I wanted to be in that so bad just because my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1281">girlfriends did, but I didn't have the money, so I asked my parents and they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1282">said no this is when we clean. So uh, you know, stuff like that you notice it.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1283">Other people had more money than you and we had different opportunities, I mean</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1284">we never had a TV until I don't know when and my father didn't get a car</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1285">until--you know, we walked everywhere.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1286"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, did you marry someone who is also Ukrainian?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1288"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1290"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So is that something common Ukrainian children--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1292"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Um-- Probably not, I want to say, I met him in the church here, but um, for<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1294">instance my brother he met his wife in college and she wasn't Ukrainian.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1295"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So were you comfortable--sorry-- were you comfortable with your children<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1297">marrying someone not Ukrainian or something most parents felt ok about--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1298"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Most have to go, I not say nothing to my son. His wife is not Ukrainian. And<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1300">she's nice--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1301"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And does not speak Ukrainian--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1303"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She is not Ukrainian. She's very nice person.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1305"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Sorry?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1307"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She's very nice person.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1309"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She's a nice person--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1311"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was not against.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1313"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, she was not against.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1315"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, I think in your--it seems like in your life it's very individual,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1317">everything's personal, like you don't really force your children to marry Ukrainian.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1318"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1320"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhm--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1322"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1324"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker">MK:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, my mother's probably the exception to the rule. I can think of other<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1326">Ukrainians that we knew where that was not the case.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1327"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do you recall any of them? Like any relatives who--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1329"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ah-- It's interesting, it's mostly, not in this church, but I want to say in<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1331">Sacred Heart, they were more-- I want to say nationalistic, always more</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1332">nationalistic, when was that -- Right, they were-- I know one person, and she is</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1333">a Sacred Heart, her daughter married a non-Ukrainian about--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1334"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She was very upset?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1336"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Very upset about it!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1338"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It seems like the church community here in St. John is very close-knit,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1340">because you consider you met your husband here</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1341"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Uh-hum. So, so would you consider just the Ukrainian community in general to<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1343">be close-knit; are you guys friendly with the other churches?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1344"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh yeah, is that your community outside the churches as well?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1346"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1348"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So Catholic, and--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1350"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah. I mean, you know, we meet them, it is a media</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1352"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>A clip?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1354"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah it is a media clip. Definitely. You know everybody in the community<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1356">sort of speak--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1357"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Even though you go to different church?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1359"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, even though we go to different churches, there are churches under the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1361">Pope, you know, doesn't really matter. You know, years ago, it did matter.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1362"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How is it--?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1364"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Like when my mother first came here it did matter. And you know, like I<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1366">said, they tried to steer people over there, because, but then the interesting</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1367">thing happen when Orthodoxy celebrated the thousand year, and I think all the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1368">Ukrainian that were here that were Catholic realized that Orthodoxy was in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1369">Ukraine longer than Catholicism. It was like a light bulb went off, it was like,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1370">oh--you know, and when it was like, they didn't realize, you know we weren't</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1371">like a second-hand religion, hahaha--. You know, it is almost that way you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1372">couldn't-- You know, but I can remember Catholics, it was a whole different</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1373">mindset, I can remember my girlfriend telling me-- She was a Catholic, I met her</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1374">in high school, she couldn't--If she went to another church, it was like a sin!</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1375"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Like a sin to whom? Who's thinking it as another sin?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1377"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, right, to a Catholic! It will be a sin to a Catholic! If they go to<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1379">another church, it will be like sinful!</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1380"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She had to con--confess.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1382"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You had to confess. [Everyone laughs].</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1384"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Really?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1386"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You had to confess, this was sinful! Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1388"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It's Christian church.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1390"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>This was my girlfriend who was not Catholic, but she was brought up in<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1392">Johnson City here and that was her thing; that is crazy!</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1393"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was thinking, so we were talking about intermarriage, and you said you are<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1395">really open to your children-- as long as it is nice person, right, so does that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1396">mean that in Ukrainian community, eventually nobody speaks Ukrainian language if</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1397">this keeps happening, is that something you ever thought about? Or is it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1398">something that you are just open-minded to?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1399"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, No.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1401"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You never thought about it.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1403"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, she never really--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1405"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, children of Ukrainian and somebody else is still an Ukrainian.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1407"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1409"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do you treat them just like an Ukranian--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1411"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1413"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's amazing.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1415"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1417"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do they have to speak Ukrainian to be an Ukrainian?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1419"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I don't think so -- they have to.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1421"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You don't think so?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1423"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1425"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, I mean, my mother seen so much--so many changes, you know, it is even<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1427">funny for her, well I mean, she is 93, so she is even mixing, when she speaks in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1428">Ukrainian, she throws in some English words, it is really comical, because she</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1429">is sort of--haha.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1430"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1432"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She's been here so long that--It's ah --</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1434"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because culturally she is used to different cultures?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1436"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because she's been here so long, whereas like our priest, he is been here,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1438">you know, less, you know--he, he is newer from Ukraine than say my mother, and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1439">so he doesn't, when he speaks English, he speaks English, when he speaks</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1440">Ukrainian, he speaks Ukrainian. But my mother mixes things up now because, wow,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1441">I think part of it is age too.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1442"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>We going to finish this in about 7 more minutes, we finish in exactly 11<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1444">o'clock. I think we have made a lot of progress so far, is there anything else</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1445">you want to share with us, do you feel something you want to tell us?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1446"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do you have any memories, anything about the church? Your childhood?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1448"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>With these years you spent here in Binghamton--in this church, um-- anything<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1450">significant you remember that might be important to your life?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1451"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My mother tells a lot stories about Ukraine, and I was just trying to remind<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1453">her about, you know, she forgets a lot of stuff. She has told me a lot, so you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1454">going to have to hear it through me, but--being, when she was little, everything</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1455">revolved around the church, because there was nothing else other than working.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1456">You know on the farm. But--holidays, holy days were big deals there, you will go</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1457">from one church, if one church celebrated um-- was named after like-- like</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1458">renunciation, or whatever was named after, a holy day, when that holy day came,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1459">it was like they had a big celebration in that particular church. And everybody</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1460">from the surrounding area churches will go there, and will be a big deal, it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1461">will be a big celebration, everybody will stop working and go there.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1462"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>When you say everybody, you mean Ukrainians?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1464"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, the Ukrainians in the community. And surrounding villages. My mother<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1466">were tell me that a neighboring village will --</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1467"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Blessed water.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1469"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, when they blessed water. That was the baptism of ah-- wow, it was the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1471">baptism, so what they did in the villages there was there was a river--and the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1472">river will, ah, will freeze every winter, and they will carve out a cross out of</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1473">river. My mother said they were all, they weren't even have shoes, but they tide</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1474">clothes on their feet, were all head to this big celebration, and they will all</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1475">be by the river, and the priest will bless the water, and they will carve this</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1476">cross out of the river, and they will go for, they walked miles to go to this</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1477">thing, and--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1478"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Nobody have cars! We all have to walk there ourselves (everyone laughed). It<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1480">was cold, we don't-- you know.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1481"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Binghamton is cold.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1483"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It's Ukraine.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1485"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, no, I am talking about Ukraine. This is Ukraine. This is Ukraine.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1487"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1489"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, oh, okay.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1491"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She was telling me stories, and most everything church-related. You know,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1493">other than you know, personal things about growing up, but everything, you know,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1494">going to another church, celebrating with the villagers, various things.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1495"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, it seems like people were drawn together more because of religion than<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1497">really ethnicity?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1498"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1500"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, when you come here-- I saw some videos in St. John Baptist's website, I<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1502">saw children dancing. I was wondering, did you participate in one of those? Like</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1503">1970s, 80s, like the church children dancing?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1504"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No she didn't. Adults didn't, it was for children. I did!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1506"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You did!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1508"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They sent me--um, it was-- there was Ukrainian classes, religious classes,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1510">and there were dancing classes.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1511"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What were you celebrating at the time? You celebrating some church holidays<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1513">or Ukrainian traditions? Or--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1514"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Or holidays?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1516"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ukrainian traditions. We would always had a picnic and we would highlight<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1518">our culture, and um-- I can remember before my parents had a car, we lived a few</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1519">blocks from here, so I can remember getting dressed up in my Ukrainian costume,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1520">and walking down here, drive here to come to this church to dance at that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1521">festival. And my girlfriend would said, were you embarrassed, looking like that?</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1522">I never was. I dressed up, and my brother at I waked down--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1523"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>A pride?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1525"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, we really did.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1527"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You are proud of your heritage?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1529"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was very proud, and one of things, hey I can do something you guys can't<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1531">do. You don't know anything about this, but I do, you know, I was proud of it.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1532"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Was it nice for you to see that, your daughter took much pride in your<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1534">heritage even though, you know, she was born in the US? Was that something you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1535">took pride as well? To see your daughter kind of want to follow the footsteps?</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1536">Even though--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1537"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Sure.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1539"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Your experience, is it something unique? Do most Ukrainian children here, do<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1541">they have similar beliefs like yours, do they somehow just forget about it? Or</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1542">people have different ideas-- What do you think?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1543"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well--.. Some of it have to do with the way they were brought up, I mean<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1545">some parents really didn't care and didn't instill the culture, and those kids</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1546">kind of went off and you don't hear from them, and they don't celebrate anymore,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1547">whereas me--ah --</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1548"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What makes you think you want to keep this heritage?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1550"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I instill it in my children. It is an example right there, I got three<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1552">children. All over, one in Syracuse, one in Alexandria, Virginia, one in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1553">Chicago. And my daughter in Syracuse married a Polish guy, but her kids are in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1554">the Ukrainian dance group. She signed them up.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1555"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How did-- sorry-- how did you feel so much about being Ukrainian when your<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1557">mother is not forcing you to be an Ukrainian? That is amazing.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1558"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>How am I? Ah-- It is part of who I am, yeah, it is part of who I am. Yeah, I<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1560">celebrated. And I am proud of it, definitely proud of it. I instill in my kids</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1561">even though my son is not a church goer.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1562"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Any final thoughts that you might want to share with us? Is there anything<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1564">you feel important that we have not discussed? So anything else--.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1565"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No--.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1567"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I think we have learned a lot interesting thing about you.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1569"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Absolutely.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1571"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>This is an amazing experience.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1573"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, my mother is sort of--ah--because she has been here so long, she has assimilated.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1575"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Assimilated?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1577"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Hehe, she is definitely assimilated. She still holds a lot of things, she ah--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1579"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Keeps the traditions, um--.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1581"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>She definitely keeps the traditions.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1583"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Keeps the traditions?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1585"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, holy days and all that--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1587"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ukrainian food? Music?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1589"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Definitely, Ukrainian food, Ukrainian music, definitely Ukrainian culture,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1591">my mother reads Ukrainian newspapers still and she keeps in touch with Ukrainian</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1592">lives back.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1593"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So I think one more thing that is important to talk about, so when you went<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1595">back to Ukraine right, so you went back to Ukraine in 1980s?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1596"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1598"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Have you visited Ukraine before?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1600"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was, I was there in the 90s.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1602"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do they think of you as Ukraine or as American, do they think of you like that?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1604"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My family?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1606"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Like people in Ukraine, do they-- community as a whole, do they ever think<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1608">of you as one of their own, or like Americans--Do they --</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1609"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My family thought that--definitely--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1611"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Americanized?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1613"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Definitely Americanized. It was kind of like-- I will share this, probably shouldn't.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1615"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh please, go ahead, hehe?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1617"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>When I go back, I was so excited to see my family-- But I felt they were<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1619">excited to see me not so much as to see me and how are you whatever, but what</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1620">did you bring me-- I got that, I got that very distinct impression, so when I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1621">came back and I told my mother, and said, you know-- I would love to go back to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1622">Ukraine, but I wouldn't like to go see family. And she was horrifying by that.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1623"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1625"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And I said, I just got the feeling like, yeah it is nice to see you, but--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1627"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What did you bring --</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1629"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What did you bring me? Because there is just such a definitely difference<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1631">between our lives and their lives--ah --</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1632"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I think your mother mentions that too.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1634"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Even though we are same bloodline, it is just everybody--my mother always<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1636">said that they think, you know, money grows on trees here.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1637"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1639"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You know--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1641"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Even though you are hardworking everyday--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1643"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, we brought my cousin here a few years ago</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1645"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It was 10 years--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1647"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, it was ten plus years ago. It was my mother's brother's son came here,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1649">and he lived with my brother, who didn't--my brother doesn't have any kids,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1650">whatever, he--um, he couldn't believe that my brother will get up at 5 a.m. and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1651">get ready for work, and go to work and put it a full day, I mean he thought that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1652">he came here, and it was just going to be a party.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1653"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Money grows on trees.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1655"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right, money grows on trees, and it was like party times for my brother and<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1657">him that they were going to have all these time together--My brother says, wow,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1658">I work, I only get two weeks' vacation a year, and this is my life, wow, I think</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1659">he got a real education because he thought like hey, life was good. And what we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1660">realized there was, even though I was there in the 90s, my relatives were still</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1661">living under Communism, they were--in fact, my one cousin drove us around, and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1662">he went, they still have a sort of like collective farm on the property there,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1663">even though like I said Ukraine was supposed to be "Free."</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1664"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Under Soviet Union?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1666"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You know, haha. He went to this collective farm and stole gas to put-- my<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1668">brother and I were so nervous, like he is ripping off gas of from this place so</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1669">he can drive us around, but, but, he thought nothing happen. It was like they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1670">owe me. They owe me.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1671"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They owe you--?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1673"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That was his feeling, you know, these were just Communists anyway, they are<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1675">ripping us off, and we going to rip them off.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1676"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I mean a totally, totally, totally different life then like I said, I went<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1678">there, wasn't like we are so glad to see you, oh my god, it is our flesh of</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1679">blood, whatever, okay--. nice to see you, but what do you got in that suitcase?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1680"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1682"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It just shows-- the, sort of like time work, they still back in the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1684">Communist, even though--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1685"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Also, the image of America!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1687"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, the American dream.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1689"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It still lives today, it really does.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1691"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You feel the same way as your daughter feels about? People in Ukraine?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1693"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AL</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1695"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, she knows it. Just by virtue of--wow, I think the same thing happen to<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1697">her over there, but it was really brought into focus when I was there.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1698"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do you plan to go back to Ukraine anytime soon in the future?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1700"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow. When it is safer [laughs].</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1702"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow, thank you so much for this amazing interview, I am very glad to meet you.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1704"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>RP</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I appreciat it.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1706"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I hope you have a very nice day.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1708"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow. It was a pleasure!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1710"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Thank you, I wish you drive safely home and have a good day!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1712"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>MK</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>We lived up the street, hehe.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1714"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>JZ</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, you lived up the street!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1716"></span><span></span> <p>(End of Interview)</p> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Anna Lewkowicz Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lewkowicz, Anna ; Zou, Robert ; Zou, JiaJun Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Anna Lewkowicz was born in Ukraine. She first went to Germany, where she worked in a forced labor camp for five years. Her sister, who was in the United States, obtained the proper papers to have her come to the United States. She is married, has two children and lives in the Southern Tier with her family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Anna Lewkowicz.MP3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2016-04-06 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 72:03 Subject The topic of the resource Lewkowicz, Anna.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Ukrainian; Germany; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Atrocities; Russification; Labor camps; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7fcf63ae9b0cccacc9c02bdbbb3ee648.jpeg 94011bbc9d5d917b17e3f3aee3dae364 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e70ddf94bb04a33ea7b6aeba1cb94dba.mp3 5298a9a7b94af78800b6c70923e24c24 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ukrainian Oral History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span> Description An account of the resource The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community. Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ann B. Czebiniak Biographical Text Ann B. Czebiniak is a first generation Ukrainian American who was born in Johnson City, NY, and worked for IBM. She is not married but has a large extended family.She is a member of Ukrainian Catholic Church and resides in the Southern Tier with her family. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 62:00 minutes Date of Interview 2016-04-10 Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format audio/mp3 Language English Material Type Sound Collection Ukrainian Oral History Project Subject LCSH Czebiniak, Ann.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Russian; Poland; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) Interview Format Video or Audio audio OHMS Object URL https://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=AnnCzebiniak.xml Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Immigrants; Ukrainian Americans; International Business Machines Corporation; Ukrainian Catholic Church; Ethnic identity Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <p class="first-p">Ukrainian Oral History Project</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1"></span><span></span> <p>Interview with: Ann B. Czebiniak</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_3"></span><span></span> <p>Interviewed by: Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_5"></span><span></span> <p>Transcriber: Briana Comuniello and Drew Tenbus</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_7"></span><span></span> <p>Date of interview: 10 April 2016 at 10:15:00 AM</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_9"></span><span></span> <p>Interview Setting: Sacred Heart Ukrainian Catholic Church, Johnson City, NY</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_11"></span><span></span> <p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_13"></span><span></span> <p>(Start of Interview)</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_15"></span><span></span> <p><strong>Briana Comuniello</strong>: Alright, so good morning.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_17"></span><span></span> <p><strong>Ann Czebiniak</strong>: Morning.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_19"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>We will be doing an hour interview with you today. Umm, just to start off,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_21">can you state your full name and maybe a little bit about yourself?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_22"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Uhh, my name is Ann Czebiniak and I am one of uhh eleven children. Two of my<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_24">sisters died before I was uhh born and right now there's only my one sister and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_25">a brother. All the rest of them are gone.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_26"></span><span></span> <p><strong>BC and Drew Tenbus</strong>: Wow</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_28"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, and as I say, I was born in America, and in fact it's only, not far away<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_30">from where we are up on the hill. I was born there, and I went to catholic</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_31">school. I went twelve years. Uhh, St. Stanislav which no longer is here and then</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_32">I moved to Saint Patrick's for twelve years on that and they were taught by the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_33">nuns both and they were very strict, and they were good, excellent teachers, and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_34">they were very good. And when I started, my first job was in a grocery store,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_35">and then one day at the clothes store I was fortunate, I got a job when I worked</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_36">in IBM, I retired.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_37"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh wow, that's very interesting</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_39"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, I was very fortunate</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_41"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What did you do at IBM?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_43"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, I used to work for engineering and I was not an engineer but thank god<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_45">for a lot of brothers, they were electricians, everything and all electrical</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_46">things I understood, so I used to, uhh when computers first came out, those big</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_47">things on there, we were the ones that, I was the one that they failed, I was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_48">the one that had to find out why they failed.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_49"></span><span></span> <p><strong>BC and DT</strong>: Ahh!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_51"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That was my job. So, I, it was very good, and then it was very, and as I say<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_53">the engineers were good but they only had everything on paper.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_54"></span><span></span> <p><strong>AC</strong>:&nbsp;Paperwork</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_56"></span><span></span> <p><strong>DT</strong>:&nbsp;Before paperwork</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_58"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>But I grew up with it. My brothers did those things, so I knew, I<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_60">understood, electricity was easier for me to find the defects. And I was very,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_61">very, I was very fortunate at IBM, they used all my talents that I had. I have</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_62">to say. It was very, very profitable and I'm grateful for that.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_63"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's amazing. Umm, do you wanna talk about, uhh your parents? You said<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_65">they came here--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_66"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, you ask the questions. Well, what do you want to hear?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_68"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, we'll take it back a little bit. Uhh, your parents are from Ukraine?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_70"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, they were from Poland.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_72"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh ok.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_74"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Let me explain that. They originally under Franz Josef and that was Austria<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_76">and when they had the Austrian divide the section where they lived ended up in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_77">the Polish area.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_78"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ok.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_80"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, they originally and when I was visit in uhh 1985, I went to visit the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_82">village my parents came from and they still, uhh there was a Ukrainian church</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_83">that-- a Ukrainian church there.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_84"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, that's how we got from Poland.&nbsp;</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_86"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's interesting. Umm, when did your parents come here?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_88"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Uhh, I started to tell you before. My dad came here in 1905. My dad was born<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_90">in 1880. And he came here on a work visa in 1905. He worked for five years and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_91">my aunt came. My, there was only two of them- there was three but my uncle died,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_92">and my aunt came with my dad but she got sick over here and she went back and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_93">died. But my dad was here for five years and he worked partly on, in EJs</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_94">(Endicott-Johnson) that they long time ago on there, they worked things.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_95"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh ok.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_97"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, originally, he started to work on the trains with the trains but then he<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_99">got a job in EJs and that's where he was. After five years he went back to uhh</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_100">Europe, you know, and he got married and my oldest brother which is Adrianna's</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_101">great grandfather (referring to her great-great niece who was also being</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_102">interviewed on the other side of the room) was born there. And he was only like</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_103">four, five months when they had, and my dad decided we bought property and no</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_104">money because in the area where there was, you know, just farming you don't, so</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_105">my dad came to the United States in 1914 and it was late part of 1914 just</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_106">before World War I. He got here WWI broke out and my dad was in America here and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_107">my mother was in Poland and for four years it was illegal, you could not even</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_108">write letters. They had no idea anything about each other. So, after the war was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_109">over, they communicated, and my dad was, he paid the property, you know. My</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_110">mother was very smart and- not smart, wise and she figured that if my dad could</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_111">make a living in America and pay half the property there, things are better here</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_112">than they are there. And other thing that my mother did not like is that after</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_113">the war things got political and unfortunately that the Catholic Church in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_114">Poland, the Ukrainian Catholic Church was pulling. My mother used to call them-</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_115">didn't call them Russians, they called them Muscovites so they're going towards</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_116">Russia and my mother didn't like that so that was one of the other reasons why</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_117">she came to this country. So, they got here, and they, my dad, he built a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_118">property that's for all but my two brothers that were my oldest brother and my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_119">other brother, we were all born there. All of us. All 8, 9 of us. So, and I say</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_120">that my dad got sick and he was truck farming and then my oldest brother, I says</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_121">my oldest brother Mike, that's his name, he was very smart. Not knowing the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_122">language at all when they came here to America, they started a Catholic School</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_123">St. Stanislav and that was just beginning on there and he went to school, and he</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_124">was six years old when he came here but he was so smart that he skipped to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_125">grades in school.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_126"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC AND DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_128"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>He was very, too bad he couldn't finish like, go on to college and that he<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_130">could've had, at that time there was things, but he finished and then he got</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_131">job. He had job as a meat cutter and that at that time meat cutters were making</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_132">more money than the factory people, so he was the one that helped my dad to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_133">raise the farm, the family on there. So, until we got old enough to you know,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_134">the older ones came and we all had our turn to keep our mother and father, we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_135">had to do our turn for. And the fact that I was the last one I kept the house up</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_136">and all and I supported them until they died.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_137"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow. How was it growing up with such a big family?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_139"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Excellent. You know what, you don't, if you have a problem, there's always<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_141">someone to ask and in a big family, no matter what your problem is you're gonna</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_142">find somebody who's had that problem. And that is big because you don't have to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_143">decide on yourself, you can make a judgement on what they lived through.&nbsp;&nbsp;I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_144">found it very beneficial and I (stutters) now I miss them because I used to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_145">depend on the brothers and all because, and they're gone. And I say five of my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_146">brothers are, they're gone you know. And they did a lot, and we were a very</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_147">close family. As you see over here, family's all together.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_148"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>(Laughing) Everyone's still here (referring to Ann's extended family who<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_150">came to church with her).</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_151"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, I say, we enjoyed family life and it was very good on there. When we<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_153">uhh, this was just before World War II, my brother, oldest brother, he bought a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_154">farm and the reason why he bought the farm was that they had a little building</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_155">on the corner and my brother wanted to have a little, like we had, the 9/11</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_156">little store over there. And he did have it during WWII. And then, as I say, we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_157">had chance the man that he worked for in town, the meat cutter, he had two</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_158">stores, so he, my brother, has chance to buy one of the stores.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_159"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC AND DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_161"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>But during the war times, he couldn't work out in the store because they<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_163">would've all been drafted. I have five (brothers) you know. So, what they did is</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_164">that my brother worked on the farm from Monday till Friday and then Friday;</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_165">Monday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday they worked in the store. My sister, my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_166">oldest sister, she was the one that took care of the store and my brother Andy</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_167">also was attending, he knew how to cut meat. So, they took care that during the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_168">week. So, for that and then, and see, my oldest brother, my brother Pete, I said</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_169">(stutters) four of my brothers were in the service. So, they had, they go, they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_170">all went at different times because they were younger. And then nephews,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_171">Adrianna's uncle, he was in Vietnam and I says I have, what's his name, nephews</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_172">that were all, one that was in Germany, I had like six or seven nephews that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_173">were in the service, so.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_174"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow. Were they all from different branches or--?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_176"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yah, I have a nephew, my one brother and nephew were in the Air Force, and<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_178">one nephew was in the Navy, and he was on the ship in Midway, and I have</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_179">nephews, and the nephews were in different (stutters), served in the army. One</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_180">of, her uncle (referring to her great-great niece) had a good job. He was in the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_181">army. He was drafted but he was drafted already after he went to college. And he</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_182">had a nice job because he used to be a chauffeur for Air Force generals so that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_183">was a nice job. But I unfortunately, I lost a brother-in-law in WWII.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_184"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Really?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_186"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My sister Pauline, there's only three of us sisters. The two sisters died<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_188">way, way back but three of my sisters that lived, and my middle sister, uhm she</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_189">got married like four months before she was 18 and her husband went to war, and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_190">he was killed in the Battle of the Bulge if anybody knows that. And my sister,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_191">she has two girls, she lived with her husband only 35 days. Could you imagine?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_192"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_194"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And the two times they had, as she saw, she got pregnant, and the youngest<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_196">one, the youngest girl was only four months when he was killed.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_197"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC AND DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh wow!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_199"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And his uncle- his brother tried, he was in the service also and tried to<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_201">find out how he died but his whole outfit was killed. They were at the position</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_202">where they had to keep the place because if they, that area in the Battle of the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_203">Bulge, if they gave in, it could've been, the war could've gone another way. So</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_204">they had to, and they had, and it was a bad time. He died in December in 1944.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_205">So that was about the things. And I say, other brothers are very unfortunate,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_206">they were very good in the service, no problems.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_207"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Were your parents, uhm happy that they joined the service or-- what was<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_209">their feeling towards--?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_210"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My mother and father-- I gotta tell you about my brother Andy. No, my<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_212">mother, they did not, that's part because in Europe people had to go in service</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_213">too.&nbsp;My brother Andy was in the Korean War and he went into the service and my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_214">mother prayed very, very hard that he would not go to Korea. So he was stationed</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_215">in Texas and the place of demarcation was St. Louis, Fort Lewis in Washington</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_216">State, so they moved my brother up to Washington State. He was supposed to go to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_217">Korea. Well, they lost his records. They lost his records for three months.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_218"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>(Laughing)</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_220"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It was in the back of the, you know drawer, in the back, and when they found<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_222">that, it was already, they could not send anybody overseas unless they had</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_223">(served) a year, and it was less than a year, so my brother did not go. And my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_224">mother, it was through her prayers.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_225"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, all those prayers-- (Laughs)</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_227"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And for that, you could talk about that, my mother made a sacrifice, that<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_229">she would never have any alcoholic beverages as long as she lived, and she</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_230">didn't as thank you for not brother not going in there.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_231"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's crazy!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_233"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They say have faith up there or something. A lot of people have faith, you<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_235">find out that a lot of people here came from Ukraine, and if you talk to every</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_236">one of them, you find out that each one has a unique story and frightening. It</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_237">is terrible what they went through. It's a wonder that they are mentally ok. So</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_238"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, going back a little bit, both your parents are from Poland or Ukraine or<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_240">around there?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_241"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My mother was born in 19- 1888. They were born there. My father was all<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_243">Ukrainian and my mother's great grandmother- my mother's grandmother, my great</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_244">grandmother, was Polish on her mother's side. So that was a thing that they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_245">were-- And I have to tell you, it's tradition in the country that if your mother</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_246">was like Polish, you are Polish, you're not another thing. My mother was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_247">baptized and everything in the eastern, in our church, but they always</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_248">considered them as Polish because they're with the mother. That was-- other</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_249">countries had that too. They called them Polish more than Ukrainian.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_250"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What did your parents identify as?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_252"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Pardon?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_254"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What did your parents identify as? Uhh, Polish, Ukrainian--?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_256"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No, they were Ukrainian, they were because they on that, they had to come in<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_258">on a Polish visa because if you were born in America, you know, I don't know</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_259">what nationality you are, but your nationality is yours. But where you're born,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_260">that's where your country is. But they were not born there, but since they lived</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_261">in there, and you get a visa, if you get to go out, if you go from America, I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_262">don't care, you (stutters) you could be Irish or whatever, you're still an</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_263">American. When you're born here you're still in America. And we, as we say that,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_264">we respect our background, but we love America. We [stutters] had nothing</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_265">against them. Even like my brothers' serving, all my parents, nobody had. And,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_266">my mother and father, as many times, as long as they've been here, they've never</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_267">even had the desire to go back to visit.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_268"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Really?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_270"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was fortunate, I went but they [her parents] didn't. I went in 1985. It<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_272">was still under communism, and the area, and I'll tell you something, you don't</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_273">realize that, when, you know, we're free over here and all, but when drove into</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_274">Warsaw, and you see guys on the steps with guns up there, it doesn't make you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_275">feel very comfortable. Everywhere you look there's guns and eyes and that's not</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_276">what we have here.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_277"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_279"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_281"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow. That's very interesting.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_283"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, ask whatever, you know, you ask whatever you want.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_285"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I don't know what you want to know</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_287"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Uhh, so what language did you speak at home?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_289"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I spoke Ukrainian</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_291"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ok.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_293"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>We all, my mother did not speak very good English, in fact, she tried to get<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_295">her citizenship and she couldn't speak well enough. My dad became an American citizen.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_296"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh, ok.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_298"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>He was an American citizen, on that. But they loved America.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_300"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Your first language was Ukrainian?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_302"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well they spoke at home, my mother didn't speak (English), and when we went<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_304">to school, in fact (stutters), I knew English because the older ones already</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_305">(knew it). Because they taught in school.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_306"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC AND DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh wow.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_308"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You know, they start in school in English but we at home, we had to speak<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_310">our language. I hate to say it, my mother that is used to say, "Jews, are you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_311">Jews that you talk another language?" You know.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_312"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They used to pick on us, but we had at home (stutters) and actually it was<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_314">an asset because when we had any kind of a problems or anything where people had</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_315">to talk to my parents, I would translate. I had no problem. In fact, that one of</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_316">our professors from church here many years ago asked me if I think in Ukrainian</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_317">when I speak it, or do I translate it into English and I never thought about it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_318">but I have to say that for me and my brother the same thing. We don't have no</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_319">difference, we think in whatever we're talking. You don't even know that we're</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_320">changing thoughts in a different--We don' translate. We just know two words for</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_321">the same thing.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_322"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do you dream in both languages? Have you noticed?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_324"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Huh?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_326"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do you dream in both languages?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_328"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Depends (coughs). Depends on what the dream is. If I dream of like my<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_330">parents, and you had. And one other thing that I'll tell you that lot of people</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_331">don't know, Americans, is that one time when I was working in the grocery store</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_332">a lady come in that I knew but she didn't speak very good English, so I spoke to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_333">her in Ukrainian. And one of the guys who were there was telling me that they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_334">should speak English but I told him, and I'll tell you, now if you go to France</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_335">and you live there for fifty years and you meet an American, you're not gonna</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_336">talk to him in French, you're gonna talk to him in English because that is</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_337">natural for you. To the people that you speak, talk in that language, and you,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_338">and American, I mean you speak American and all that, but people from other</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_339">nationalities you're gonna find out you're gonna speak in different language.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_340">Where you, what you know, what you grew up with.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_341"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC AND DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Interesting.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_343"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And you don't think that but I was confronted with it so I know.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_345"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Have you ever been either discriminated against because of speaking a<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_347">different language or anything?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_348"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>No.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_350"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, you felt very comfortable because there was a lot of Ukrainians here,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_352">obviously, in Binghamton?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_353"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Pardon, I didn't hear you.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_355"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you feel comfortable growing up here because, did you feel there was a<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_357">lot of other Ukrainians here that it was like kind of--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_358"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Uhh, it didn't matter because there was an awful lot of other people. There<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_360">was Polish, Slavic, ehh Slavic people, Czechs, uhh Italians. We grew up there</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_361">was an awful lot of different. It did not make [Stutters]. I think that now</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_362">unfortunately they make this racist, that, and we didn't even know what anything</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_363">like what race has been. That was not and that thing, I think they make bigger</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_364">issue now than they used to. We grew up, it didn't matter. I say, Blacks didn't</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_365">matter to us.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_366"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because everyone back then was very heterogeneous?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_368"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because everybody was, most everybody was from another place, you know? What<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_370">they did respect was they, I think more for what you really are. I worked, when</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_371">I worked in IBM, I worked with people--the lady from Laos, lady from Korea, and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_372">she in fact, she was from the Chinese dynasty, that she was from Korea. And the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_373">only reason why got to America is because her husband worked for the army. And</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_374">once the army left southern, all the people that worked for the army, they took</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_375">them out because the communist would've been taken amnesty against them because</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_376">they were working for the Americans. So, they were sent to either America or</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_377">Australia, other countries. They would not leave them there. And she had, and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_378">[stutters] we understood each other because she was talking to other people,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_379">they didn't believe it. But in North Korea, they had all the houses bugged. You</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_380">couldn't talk even in your own home. And you say something they already knew,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_381">and I only knew because they did the same thing in Ukraine, so I understood. But</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_382">regular people that never was come from something like that don't understand.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_383"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do you have any specific memories of your time working for IBM?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_385"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was very fortunate, that's all I says. I was very fortunate, I was very<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_387">well-liked. They liked my work. In fact, they didn't like that I was gonna</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_388">retire. In fact, I met a man that was a manager after I retired, and he asked me</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_389">to go back. To go for temporary but I-- I had other things. I'm very active at church.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_390"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you go to school to learn all about the electricity or anything?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_392"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I grew up with brothers and it was natural for them. I did, although, my<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_394">brother, my youngest brother was in the service and he learned electricity in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_395">the service, and he was here, he's upstairs, they're singing on that [referring</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_396">to church choir upstairs during mass]. He was fortunate because he was in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_397">Florida after he got out of the service and he was in a lot hot and he worked on</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_398">the first missile that went up to the moon. [Stutters] Because he was working on</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_399">the electrical parts of that.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_400"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow, that's crazy.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_402"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>He used to in the Air Force, his job was, he was named, since he was the one<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_404">that fixed the planes, that take care of them. When the service. This was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_405">already-- And believe it or not, that he still is what they call it, you can't</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_406">say that quarantined, that's not the word for it, you can't tell what you were</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_407">doing. He can't talk about the things, even today, and he was in the service in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_408">the fifties, so you talk about, so he, the things that he did, he can't talk about.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_409"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_411"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Now you said you're very active in the church community, you went to<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_413">catholic school. Did you always have a strong presence of religion in the household?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_414"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I had, my parents were faiths. We had a situation with my parents because<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_416">my, for my parents, religion came first, nationality comes second. And many</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_417">years ago, I was real small, I don't remember. But my mother was saying, they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_418">started the Orthodox Church- Ukrainian. And they&nbsp;and so my relatives are there.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_419">And they wanted my mother and dad to go, and my mother and dad were Catholic,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_420">and we don't go there. And, it was so bad that they were even shooting at the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_421">house. In fact, my mother says that one time the bullet came almost, almost hit,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_422">and it was by her leg, by her foot. And they came to the house because they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_423">were-- But my parents knew that religion came first. Uhh, don't get me wrong, my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_424">mother and father were, they're very good people. They enjoyed life, they were</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_425">not the ones that prayed all the time, you know.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_426"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They lived life. They had a good time, they enjoyed, my dad enjoyed the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_428">holidays, and they did things happy. We enjoyed, and happiness on that. But we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_429">had certain things that we had, just like [stutters]. Things are a little looser</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_430">now than we did. When I was, when we were young, you, they did not use an</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_431">ironing board, iron on Sunday. That was that. No washing, no nothing. We had on</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_432">that, and my folks would not put up with that. No way.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_433"></span><span></span> <p><strong>BC</strong>: Were all the stores closed on Sundays back then too?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_435"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>All the stores were closed on Sunday, and the only, even-- the only thing<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_437">that were open is that movie theaters, you could go to the movies. There was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_438">nothing really. And long time ago, they used to visit, Sundays. We used to go</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_439">visiting with the family, go visit. You just spent Sunday visiting other parts</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_440">of the relatives. You became closer because everybody knew each other, and it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_441">became like one family, you know.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_442"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's nice.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_444"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, we used to go, in fact when my brothers and all lived here, we used to<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_446">go from my house to the other then we have-- In fact, yesterday, we had a party.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_447">My great niece sixteenth birthday. We had a big party in the hall for her. So</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_448">that's a lot of people who didn't make it to church this morning for the first</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_449">one (Laughing).&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_450"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's so nice. So, would you say religion and family are tied?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_452"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Very much. And one of the things that i have to say is we always had at<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_454">least one meal together.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_455"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's so nice.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_457"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>You work all day but usually supper time you had one meal together.&nbsp;</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_459"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, would you say you passed on, you know, this love for religion to your<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_461">own children?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_462"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Pardon?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_464"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Would you say religion's important with your own family and your own<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_466">children and stuff?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_467"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I says, I am. I say I'm very, with all the things. I have just three of them<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_469">left. And my, all of them that died, they all received their last rights before</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_470">they died.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_471"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, whatever they did on there. And then I have a brother-in-law that-- I<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_473">have several brothers-in-law that died on that because, I says, my, I say five--</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_474">I have sister. My sister had two husbands that, Pauline. Her first husband was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_475">killed, and she was married again, and she had six children after that, and then</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_476">my sister that's in California, her husband also died. So out of the things, I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_477">have sisters-in-law, but [stutters] brothers-in-law, I don't really have any.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_478"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Did you teach Ukrainian to your own children?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_480"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I have no children. I'm the only one that's not married.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_482"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh wow!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_484"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>But I'm gonna tell you something. I'm glad. First of all, I was able to do<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_486">things that they (her siblings) couldn't. I am very artistically inclined. And I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_487">used to do things that they couldn't and so-- In fact, the Easter eggs, I was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_488">the one that taught them in the parish how to make them. And I learned from</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_489">books. I'm very good from learning-- I don't have that now, but I can, but I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_490">could, I read books I could do. I did a lot crochet. In fact, my wedding bread,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_491">my sister-in-law came to me. She wanted a wedding bread for my niece, for her</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_492">daughter. I never seen one. She brought me pictures and I, God gave me a gift</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_493">that I was able to do those kinds of things. But I have, I had forty-two nieces</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_494">and nephews, and I only have one nephew and one niece that died. All the rest of</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_495">them of them are living. That's not counting great and great-great. She's a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_496">great-great already. And I don't even know how many great-greats that I have</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_497">because there's so many.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_498"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>God Bless. Do you have any family back in Europe or--</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_500"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_502"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ok.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_504"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, there's cousins over there, on, right there. And then I have some<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_506">cousins that are in Ukraine because they were kicked out of Poland during WWII,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_507">that they ended up in Ukraine. And we had a special privilege. Uhh, my brother,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_508">my oldest brother in, and there was seven of us that went. My nephew's wife's</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_509">sister was getting married and they were in Poland, so he went with his two</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_510">children, my sister-in-law and my brother, the parents, and I went. We went to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_511">the wedding over there, on there.&nbsp;So, as I say that, uhh, it was a very</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_512">privileged to see this was during, I told you during the communist times on</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_513">there. And we find out (coughs) the difference in the families in all that we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_514">were very grateful on that. See how people live there. And I says I, they were</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_515">shown things that were different from what they had. We were very fortunate</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_516">because they already at that time had, like a, bathrooms. They had bathrooms in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_517">the house. They had bottled gas, which was on the stoves. The only thing they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_518">had were the outhouses and the worst part that we had is that where we stayed,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_519">they, the wedding was, they had to hire a cook to do that. He was cooking right</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_520">next to a whole pile of manure (Stutters). And working in the grove, and they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_521">had a make-shift kitchen. Between the barn and the house. It was-- things out.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_522">And I got-- I don't have the pictures now, my nephews got it. I took pictures in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_523">there and the one wall was so full of flies that you would, you would think that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_524">it was pepper. I'm not exaggerating.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_525"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_527"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And what they did which we didn't like is that they used to make soup, but<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_529">they didn't bring it in a pot to the house. They brought it in their bowls, two</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_530">flies in that one, one fly in that one (Laughs). They brought them in there. I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_531">had a difficult time on that. And the water, as I said, the part with the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_532">water-- We couldn't use the water because the water was from the wells that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_533">right next to-- they had manure piles and that all went down. They--you know</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_534">what, we don't appreciate the laws we have in this country.&nbsp;</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_535"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_537"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Because you can't have uhh pump, a water pump next, water by the well, by<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_539">uhh well there's things, you know, there's any kind of, all those you have to be</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_540">so far away. We didn't appreciate until we went there. And then in the towns it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_541">was worse, don't forget. I worked in a grocery store. Everything was, you know,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_542">things you have to be very careful. You come over there to store, they have the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_543">doors wide open and then there's a table, like a double stand. They had beef</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_544">there, pork there, everything. The same flies that visited the privy visit the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_545">food. And I had a very difficult time with that because, I gotta say, because I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_546">grew up, we had beef, you know, clean. In America, we're very fortunate for that.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_547"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Mhmm, wow!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_549"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Have any of your relatives come to America?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_551"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Oh! I started to tell you when we came back from America I have a cousin<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_553">that was here, he died already but he was going because that's my mothers, my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_554">mother's son, my mother's sister's son and he was going back to the village</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_555">where we were. So, he called my brother up, my brother mike, and he asked if we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_556">wanted to give money. So we went through the list of all the people that we met</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_557">down there, and we made a list get money both my brother and I went together and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_558">he gave it to the people, then he got a letter back and they did a very nice</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_559">thing cause they sent that money with an invitation to all the relatives that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_560">they had in there, in Ukraine because they didn't have back and forth all the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_561">time so they did not see those relatives, that means first cousins and all, they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_562">didn't see them since World War II. SO that money we were very grateful that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_563">they used to get the family together. That was the first time that they've seen</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_564">it. We felt very good for that.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_565"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's amazing! Nice happy ending.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_567"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So what year exactly were you born?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_569"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I was born in 1933. My oldest brother was born in 1913 so 20 years<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_571">difference. Almost, we're only a couple of weeks apart. He was born November 16</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_572">and I was born December 7th.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_573"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wait so your dad came in 1914, you said.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_575"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Pardon?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_577"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Your dad came in 1914, you said?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_579"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, the second time yeah.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_581"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>So, was your brother born in Ukraine?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_583"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yeah, he was four months old. See that's right. And my dad did not take my<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_585">mother he wouldn't take my mother. First time he came here he was like a year</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_586">almost without a job we had relatives here that said I used to wash dishes and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_587">stuff like that but for him to get a job he was afraid to bring family on that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_588">to come here. So that was why he came back the second time and that's my dad.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_589">But my mother had house was there my aunt the one that we went to when we went</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_590">back to Poland and we saw my mother's sister that was the last one of the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_591">relatives we went to see her and she lived in that house where my dad was, but</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_592">right on the hill my mother she had her own house so she lived with my mother</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_593">while my dad was married to her.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_594"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Now, would you say your parents identify themselves more as Americans?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_596"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>They never have, they considered them, I was considered themselves, yes but<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_598">they had respect. Let me explain another way. You're born in America and you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_599">live here for 20 years just an example. So, when you move to France you're not</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_600">going to talk about childhood in France because you didn't live it there, so you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_601">have to live it where you were born. So, they talk about old things, but because</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_602">they were born there, and they think of it, but as for that I told you that they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_603">had no desire to go even and visit. They liked America. Very, very, very content here.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_604"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Do you have any interesting stories from Ukraine that you remember?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_606"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>I Umm I have to think about for that--Well I will say that I find that the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_608">people and we went, and this was in Poland when we went there, my sister in law</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_609">had two sisters that were in Ukraine.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_610"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ok.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_612"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>My, her great grandmother was born in America here in, in, in Oliver, that's by<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_614">Scranton. And when she was 3 years old, her parents moved back to Europe. So,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_615">when she was there she was there until she was 19 and then she came to America</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_616">she was American born she had no problems on that. The part is it that she</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_617">already she had difficulty in American language and my brother was born there</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_618">but he had better in the English language. But things were kind of bad, she had</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_619">2 sisters in Ukraine and she did not when we were there did not there go to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_620">Ukraine because it was still under communism this was before this was 1985</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_621">before communism broke--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_622"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Right.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_624"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And we had 2 children with us and my nephew's wife was from there. She just<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_626">got her uhh papers that she was American they call it the card that she's</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_627">American citizen which she's American citizen now. She got her citizen thing,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_628">but we got the papers on Friday, and we had to make the decision on Monday that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_629">we are going because we had to make the you know your plane reservations and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_630">all? And I say that we didn't there go because she was afraid that if we went</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_631">visit and they're not gonna start World War 3 again you know for something like</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_632">that. It was scary and one of the things we had people were kind of livery of</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_633">Americans over there at the wedding. But on the last night that we were there we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_634">all, they had people there must have been like 15/20 people that came to the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_635">house where we were, that was strange of all. One of them was my sister in laws</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_636">half-uncle and he was in prison for 10 years for things that were going on and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_637">they were talking about things how it was bad over there and they told it on the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_638">last day because they knew that nobody would hear it because the next day we are</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_639">leaving because you know what we went one of my, my, my, my nephews wife's god</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_640">parents were there and they owned the bakery.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_641"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ok.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_643"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And they asked us not, we spoke, when we were there, when we were in public,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_645">we spoke only English. And she asked us not to speak in Ukrainian in there</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_646">because they're gonna take reprises on that because they were Ukrainian you had.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_647"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_649"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Yes, it was bad, it was bad on that. My mother says that before 1918 the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_651">Ukrainians and the polish people got real got along good. They used to celebrate</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_652">according to Christmas according to the Julian calendar. So, they used to come</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_653">to ours and on the 25th ours used to go back and the intermarriages you know</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_654">there was no problem. But once world WWI came, then politics came in. And see</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_655">and politics that come in and that's when the trouble start. Ukrainians had it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_656">very bad in Poland at that time. They're not that now, they're better now, but</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_657">at that time under communism it was bad. You could not admit that you were</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_658">Ukrainian. You had to speak, and they had a say at just how bad it was there was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_659">a Ukrainian church and it wasn't even catholic, it was orthodox and my nephew's</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_660">sister in law was getting married. And she was getting married in a church</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_661">there. But they had to go in because they used to use it as a barn they had all</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_662">the things, they had to clean everything out, they did not let us have any</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_663">electricity or anything while were having the marriage. So, you're talking how</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_664">bad things were, you had to be very careful on that. And when we went to visit</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_665">my sister in laws 2 aunts, we went to visit one and uhh her son in law was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_666">polish, and he didn't know that we understood Polish, so he was coming in saying</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_667">"What are they doing over her? What do they want here?" and all that. And after</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_668">we stayed a while they found out that we are relatives and we that's not the way</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_669">we are changed attitude but they're and it was afraid, you could not do on the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_670">street on that thing and a lot of stuff this food was bad, and everything was on</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_671">the black market you know, you had to get things on there. And if you wanted to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_672">go we were, the bride, that was a funny part there. Bride and groom get married</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_673">in America you go on a honeymoon, right? Not there. They drove us all around</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_674">Poland visiting everybody, he had a van and his job he was a mechanic but they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_675">he lived now came to America but hat another story I have to tell you. They're</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_676">in America now and they're in -- can't think -- in Tennessee, I think, it is my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_677">nephew's sister-in-law, she's a professor, she teaches Russian in a college and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_678">he is a mechanic, but he has but he has the thing that most expensive cars what</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_679">are they? I can't think of the name.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_680"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>A sports car?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_682"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Pardon?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_684"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Like a sports car?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_686"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>The name of it the real car that they have, he was the one that works on<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_688">them because that's what he did over there, he was a mechanic, so he got a good</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_689">job. But how they got to America. Things were very bad, they went on a tour, and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_690">they went visiting another country and they did not stay they did not go back</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_691">with the filler they went to Germany and they were on a thing, and they didn't</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_692">know for 2 weeks they didn't know how they were gonna get because they had to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_693">find out to get away they had to go underground to get things, my nephew sent</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_694">money that they were able to get but they had 2 weeks where it was very bad,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_695">they didn't think they were gonna live. But they had to sneak out of the country</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_696">because they didn't allow going to America.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_697"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_699"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's so crazy!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_701"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well you can't believe it unless you live it. I said that I find going there<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_703">has made a complete different opinion of what I thought it was. My parent's--</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_704">oh, funny thing. We went there, and my dad used to talk about a beer garden.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_705">They talk about it, so we came over there and we saw that beer garden; it looks</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_706">like an American outhouse. It was so small! I said you wouldn't think it was, so</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_707">you think something, and you picture, and it was completely different. I'm</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_708">fortunate that we went to see the places that my parents used to talk about. We</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_709">were next to it, we had a bad thing happen to us when we were in Poland is</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_710">because my friends don't live too far away from the San River. And we were going</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_711">to see some relatives on the other side and there, very few places have bridges</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_712">only in the big towns, and they have these floats that you drive on, and they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_713">wait on there and the drive you over on your car and everything, they pull you</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_714">over on the other side so you can go. That's most places how you cross. Yeah!</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_715">You don't know.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_716"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Is it like a ferry?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_718"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>For one car?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_720"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Flat thing and you have that floats, wood on that, so you have on there. And<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_722">what was bad, it was very dry that year in Poland and one of the guys that was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_723">swimming near this nest thing, he tried to go underneath the thing while we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_724">we're going on and he didn't make it out, he drowned. So, we went to visit the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_725">relatives, we came back, and we couldn't use it because they had it closed off.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_726">And I hate to say it; his body was still there on the side because we had to go</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_727">like 15/20 miles down on a bridge to go across on that. So those were the things</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_728">on there. When we went what was an interesting part since you are catholic it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_729">will be interesting, there was a miraculous church, the first one, a Ukrainian</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_730">church that was built in Poland, and it was, and my sister in law lived not too</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_731">far away from there and we went there, and you couldn't believe. You think this</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_732">hill is bad? I have a heck of a time walking. You can't drive up there, I had a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_733">stick we were all walking and the beautiful church there, there were no services</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_734">at the time there, and on that. And they had one of the, we have icons in the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_735">church as you see. And one of the icons in the altar was missing, and they said</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_736">that when the icon comes back, that the church will reopen. Well that church now</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_737">is reopened but it is the oldest church in Ukraine.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_738"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Wow!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_740"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And what happened during WWII, that church used to have a copper roof on it,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_742">and when the Germans came, they wanted the roof, copper. So, they asked some of</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_743">the villagers, thinking nobody would but they got somebody from another village,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_744">a couple of guys on there to take the roof off. Well, they start taking the roof</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_745">off, and they died. Not only did they die, but their families did too. So, they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_746">got written in a thing on that, and they went into the cornerstone of that, what</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_747">was written in there. The government had to go and replace the roof because it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_748">was in the thing that they couldn't touch that. I'm not telling you, but I knew</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_749">the people that it happened to you know, you go there. So, things used to happen</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_750">like you don't really realize, on that. But the church was beautiful, icons.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_751">Would you believe I took pictures and I wish I could show you because I have a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_752">lot of pictures, but they had icons on all the frescos, and they're still there.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_753">And they were good enough that I was able to take pictures on that. They had no</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_754">lighting in the church or anything. But in the dark, no sunlight or whatever it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_755">was up on the hill, in the woods like, beautiful place where it was on that. But</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_756">that was I think the most interesting thing we were able to go see.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_757"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Can you speak a little bit about the church here? You said you were one of<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_759">the oldest members--</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_760"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Ok then--We belong to a church which now is Holy Spirit, part of it. Well,<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_762">got to go further. A bad thing happened. We came to America and my dad came the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_763">first time, they were blessing St. Michaels over the church -- it's still there.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_764">But, they built the church in 1904. We had no eastern right bishops in America,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_765">so the attorneys didn't know how to legalize it. So, what they did is they made</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_766">it a corporation; president, secretary, and treasurer had to be in church. So,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_767">they had it ok on that. But see, in that church it was not only Ukrainians, it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_768">was mostly Ukrainians and then there was Ruthenians, like Holy Spirit. They had</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_769">the same liturgy we had, but their customs-- that's just like English, England</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_770">and America they're different. So, we wanted our own on that. So, what happened</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_771">is that after WWII, after WWI, Russia started having communism, and they started</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_772">having influence and some of the people, especially the ones that were</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_773">Ruthenians, they were for the Russians. So, what happened is that they had an</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_774">election of the new officers for the church, they got there people, and they had</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_775">a filibuster. The Sunday after that, they talked and talked until the people got</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_776">sick and they went home, and then they elected their own people into that. So</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_777">then they confronted the priests and they wanted to do things their way and the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_778">priests could not accept it that way, so they took them to court. So, just one</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_779">step backwards. In 1905, the first bishop, eastern right came to United States.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_780">His name was Ortynsky (Stehen Soter Ortynsku), he was Ukrainian. He blessed the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_781">church, everything, it was legally everything complete. But, when they went to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_782">court, because it was under laws of corporation, they lost. So that's why that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_783">church, I was baptized there on that. In 1939, and my mother said it was a very</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_784">sad day because when they lost they had to, there's a little building on the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_785">corner of Glenwood avenue and --Downs avenue. It was a building, it was like a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_786">cellar and my mother says that they had a precession with the communion from St.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_787">Michaels. I'd say it's about 10 blocks, they preceded it to that church. So we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_788">had the two churches together. So during, this was 1939, it must have been like</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_789">1941 I think around there. We had a mission in that church, but the mission that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_790">we were given were Brazilian fathers, which was Ukrainian. So they had it and we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_791">had a man that used to be a letter writer. He used to write to the bishop</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_792">everywhere he went, we wanted the Ukrainian church here. So when they came in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_793">for the mission, he talked to them, and they said "well we're gonna look into</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_794">that." So, in 1944, and I remember the date it was in September of 1944, he came</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_795">to my brother's house. Now, mind you during the war, my entire family lived up</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_796">to my brother's house. My brother had house, in fact that she lives in there</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_797">(referring to her great-grandniece that was also getting interviewed at the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_798">time) has twenty-two rooms!</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_799"></span><span></span> <p><strong>Both</strong>: Wow!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_801"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>It's a grid so nineteen of us lived there. So the priest, he came with the<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_803">priest and he said that we have a priest, we have a church, and this is our</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_804">pastor. And what got me is that when he spoke, he spoke the same way we did in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_805">the house. It was not dialect on that. So we had a protestant church that they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_806">bought in the hall that they bought that they had on there. And as I say, we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_807">going on, and after the war there was not that many, like sixty families to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_808">start with, but then when WWII was over, the people started coming, this was the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_809">only Catholic Ukrainian church in the area so they came here. We have in fact an</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_810">awful lot of people who are from Europe-- even the younger ones, I mean they got</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_811">remarried but they were from Ukraine. So, it was around 1970 we already had</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_812">enough money to start building the church. I remember in the old church they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_813">used to, in fact the fathers got the architectural sketch and what the church is</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_814">supposed to look like. So it was as you entered it that church was there for</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_815">five years. So it came time that we had enough money we're gonna build a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_816">church--can't build it. Because there was a steel crunch. No can build,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_817">everything was all steel. So, they're making they had the church committee, in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_818">fact and my brother was one of them that was on the church committee on the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_819">building committee so they going "what should we do?" So one of the other men</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_820">that was on the committee says "well how about a wooden church?" So that's the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_821">alternative. So, I went I was one of them that went to Glen Spay, they're a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_822">small church there's hunter, there's two churches that were wooden. So my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_823">brother, my oldest brother Mike he used to work for a lumber company and he</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_824">wanted to go and see a church because he wanted to find out what are the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_825">problems of a wooden church you know? You don't know. So we come in there and we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_826">were very impressed and they --we had to find an architect that was from Europe,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_827">and we had his name was Osadca (Apollinaire Osadca, [1916 - 1997],</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_828">Ukrainian-American architect) and he come in there and we had a, I can't</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_829">remember all of the names of the architects and all that that worked with that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_830">but he had he drew the plans and then, the inside of the church we had local guy</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_831">that had--local umm what's the name, builder that had people that were crafty</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_832">they were specialists and things, in fact they didn't even belong to the union</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_833">and the union could not do anything because they didn't have the workers that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_834">could do this kind of work. So they got the things on there, and then we had one</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_835">man that was from Europe that built the inside, the icons, the screen and all he</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_836">was sick, and in that he built the icon screen for that, so we were very</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_837">fortunate. But if he did not--there never was a steel crunch in the United</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_838">States as I remember and it never--since before then or since then, but it was</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_839">just at that time. And if it was not for that, our church would not have been</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_840">here, this would not been here. So it was like a--the church, god wanted our</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_841">church here. And we've had people here from all over the world we have a ledger</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_842">in church and it's not very big but this is already like the second one they had</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_843">from that place and our church opened in November of 1977. A strange part about</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_844">our church is that our church started in 1944, this one was built in 1977, and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_845">our hall was built in 1988 so it seems that the double numbers are all for our</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_846">church on that.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_847"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Maybe it worked out for the best because this church is very beautiful.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_849"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>We're very happy on it. When I remember they were building the Orthodox<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_851">Church, its down I don't know if you could see it you can see it if you go down</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_852">the street this way. When I went there inside naturally we went to see it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_853">because it was Ukrainian of course you'll go see it. And I was thinking "boy, we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_854">could not, we could never get anything that would be nicer than that." And turns</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_855">out, that we got the thing, and our church has been on television, and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_856">newspapers you name it, all over the world if you'd have that. We've had people</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_857">come down here in fact, one day I came in because I was working in the church I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_858">used to, when I was young do a lot of cleaning and stuff that was you know a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_859">job. Came in and a guys out here and I said "What are you doing here?" he says</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_860">he was from Ohio and he wanted to ask if he could see the inside of the church.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_861">He says well I'm looking into, we want to build a wooden church he'd like to see</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_862">the church. So people all over are very interested. And as I say they've been</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_863">from all countries, you can't believe the countries that we've had, people that</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_864">come to visit us.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_865"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Maybe you're starting a trend!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_867"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well you know what, well the first 15 years when the church was thing, they<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_869">used to have busloads. My sister lived down the street and anytime they used to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_870">go down there and my brother in law had to open the church if father wasn't here</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_871">to open the church for them to see. But we had busloads of people that came to</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_872">see the church.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_873"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>That's impressive! Now umm I see there's a lot of umm decorations around<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_875">here so it's not just the church services that bring people together there's</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_876">more parts of it?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_877"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, we have where the project is that we're active, we have dancers. So<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_879">they have on that, so they have -- all the traditions. Our weddings are</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_880">traditional I says that on that things on there. So everything is on and they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_881">are, and we have to work, we are very fortunate because one of our pastors went</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_882">to Florida church and they said they had Friday dinners. So he came up here and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_883">festivals, not festivals, bazaars. So he came up, and that's when we started, we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_884">started to have making, first it was only the pierogis on that they sold. And</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_885">then he got Friday dinners, and we in fact we just had the festival was just--</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_886">day before Palm Sunday the day before and on that. We made very very good, we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_887">wouldn't be able to keep the church without that, God's very good to us because</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_888">we're making very good money to be able to upkeep. We can't--we had to replace</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_889">the roof on that. And we were able to pay for it full, they did all driveways,</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_890">everything they had to do we had the money, but we had to work on it. We don't</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_891">have money out of our own pockets but we worked for it. And they did too!</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_892">Because when we come in there--if you come in there on when they have Friday</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_893">dinners, the young ones are serving just like the things they have to do just</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_894">like they got their job we got schedules everybody does their jobs. I come in on</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_895">Tuesday because I come in Tuesday we make the golabki. On Wednesday morning I</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_896">come in and make the pierogis. We have a schedule for everything for the whole</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_897">week. We have a group that comes in there that hard boils the cabbage. We have a</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_898">group come in there a guy come in there, couples that peel the onions, and we</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_899">have a group that have to get the eyes out, chop the potatoes up for the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_900">pierogis on that. We have somebody that has to see that all the stuff is brought</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_901">there on there. Then we have a guy that comes in a couple of them that come in</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_902">they pack the golabki and the pierogis they pack them on it. We got everything</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_903">all situated for everyday for that.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_904"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>DT</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>What is golabki?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_906"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Pigs in a blanket.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_908"></span><span></span> <p><strong>Both</strong>: Ahh!</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_910"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Golabki, that's what it is.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_912"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>And everyone does this in their free time?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_914"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>This all for volunteer, and they do it for all that. And I say that they<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_916">come in and then they have on Tuesdays they come in the young people they and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_917">father has catechism and they have dance practice on Tuesdays. And then a lot of</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_918">times they've been, dancers have appeared in a lot of other places so they have</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_919">to have extra dancing on that. We've been fortunate we've had dancers from all.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_920">It was fortunate for us that when the people start coming from Ukraine and they</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_921">were in concentration camps, you know in camps? All the Ukrainians came in there</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_922">so what they did is what were they gonna do? There was professors and stuff on</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_923">there, so people went to school. We had, they had choirs, they had dancing and</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_924">everything and people learned! Things on it in there. My sister in law, my</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_925">sister in law her father was a school professor a--the head guy in the school--</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_926">the principal in a high school that's what he had in Europe on that so, and then</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_927">so we were fortunate on things like that. So anything else you need to know, on that?</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_928"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well our time is running out, is there anything else you want to tell us?</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_930"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well I think we about covered whatever on that, everything on there. I can't<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_932">think of anything that would be on there--as I said we're very fortunate we can</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_933">keep up in there and we're very fortunate to have father, father is very good if</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_934">not for father, father's a business man.</span></p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_935"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>He goes on television, you'd be surprised--one of my niece's brother in-law<span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_937">says that he would make a good politician because when he goes, he goes to TV</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_938">station they love him over there, he very good with people on that and things.</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_939">So we're very fortunate. And what's very good to is we do get along with all the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_940">other churches like there's not a lot of things. I don't know if they have it</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_941">anymore, but they used to have--in the city they had a group that used to go</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_942">visit the golden dome churches. So they used to go from church to church to see</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_943">all the different. In fact they didn't come every year but they would come over</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_944">here and father would explain things on it. And what happens when we have a--our</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_945">bazaar, father has to go and people come they want to see he has to go to church</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_946">and explain that the different things we have in church on there. I understand--</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_947">like your point because you're Latin rite? I grew up in the Roman Catholic</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_948">because I went on that. We didn't know I was already on 12th year when the</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_949">church started. So mostly, I went to first holy communion on the Latin rite</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_950">because there was no place for us to go, it wasn't here. And I know more about</span><span>&nbsp;</span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_951">the Latin rite than I do about our rite on that, so--</span></p> <strong><span class="transcript-line" id="line_952"></span></strong> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>BC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Well, thank you so much for your time.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_954"></span><span></span> <p><span class="speaker"><strong>AC</strong>:</span><span>&nbsp;</span>Hey, you're welcome.</p> <span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_956"></span><span></span> <p>(End of Interview) &nbsp;&nbsp;</p> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ann B. Czebiniak Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Czebiniak, Ann B. ; Comuniello, Briana ; Tenbus, Drew Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Ann B. Czebiniak is a first generation Ukrainian American who was born in Johnson City, NY, and worked for IBM. She is not married but has a large extended family. She is a member of Ukrainian Catholic Church and resides in the Southern Tier with her family. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-04-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AnnCzebiniak.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-07-07 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Ukrainian Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:00 Subject The topic of the resource Czebiniak, Ann.--Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Diaspora, Ukraine—History; Russian; Poland; Migrations; Church; Ethnic identity; Manors and customs; Ukrainian cooking; Broome County (N.Y.) https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/af7f688973c94539397ed7b7dfb3e6cf.jpeg b9f5a8e19784c01a85bbdbf9cadd9a7e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/47ebdd2b71693eaeaab73343a1ef75ec.mp3 fdea3c256785cc54a014680477ac0d74 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1/25/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Catherine Abashian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:14:04 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}" data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Cathy was born in Binghamton to Turkish and Irish-English-German parents. She attended Hartwick College and later graduated from Binghamton University. After graduating, she worked for her father at his company. Cathy has one son, Nathan.&quot;}">Cathy was born in Binghamton to Armenian and Irish-English-German parents. She attended Hartwick College and later graduated from Binghamton University. After graduating, she worked for her father at his company. Cathy has one son, Nathan.</span> Keywords Armenians; Community; Family; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Massacre; Church; Food; Culture; Dance; Discrimination; AGBU; Turkey; Ottoman Empire; Binghamton. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Cathrine Abashian Williams Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 25 January 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 AD: So, today is January 25, 2017 and I am interviewing with Cathy Abashian Williams. Okay, so but go ̶ ahead Cathy and tell me your full name for the record. 0:20 CA: Sure. My name is Catherine. My middle name is Rose named after my Armenian grandmother translated her name as Esgouhi, so Rose. Abashian is my maiden name and Williams is my previous married name and professional name and the name of my son. 0:44 AD: So, where were you born Cathy? 0:47 CA: I was born in Binghamton, at Binghamton General Hospital, which is over on the Southside in 1961, August 6th. 0:59 AD: So, which generation you belong to? So, who was born here before you? 1:06 CA: My father was born here on June 27, 1927 in an apartment in Binghamton on Clinton Street and he was the first generation and I am the second. 1:24 AD: I see. So, how about your mother? 1:28 CA: So, my mother was the second oldest of ten children of Irish-English-German Catholic parents. So, she was born in the United States. Her parents were born in the United States too. 1:40 AD: But she was not an Armenian? 1:41 CA: No, she was not. 1:42 AD: Okay, so your paternal grandfather was born ̶ overseas? 1:54 CA: Yes, he was born– so my paternal grandfather and grandmother– now my grandmother was born in Kassab, Syria and my grandfather may have been born in Turkey I believe. 2:08 AD: Okay, but that was old Ottoman Empire back, then right? 2:12 CA: Yes. 2:13 AD: So, what was your father doing, like he was born here and what kind of education or occupation he had? 2:26 CA: So, he was born he went to Public School here in Binghamton. When he was seventeen, he enrolled in the New York State March at Marine Academy, which is now SUNY (State University of New York) Maritime in the Bronx and went there and studied and then ultimately graduated from there and joined the US Navy. He was a Ship Engineer. And he worked in the engine room of the ships and he had a career in the navy and ultimately, he came back to Binghamton and he met his first wife who was Russian. Her family were first generation. She was first generation Carpathian, Russians who came to this country from–to work in the coal mines in Scranton. And they were from a large family in Binghamton. So, he married her and she was sick. She had Asthma. 3:46 AD: I see. 3:46 CA: And so, they had my oldest sister Roxanne, and then they moved to Arizona because of the climate, because she could not breathe very well and had my second oldest sister and then she contracted pneumonia and she died when my sisters were six months old and a year and a half old. So, my father’s sisters went to Arizona came and brought him and the girls back to Binghamton and they lived with his family, his parents and then he met my mother who was number two of ten children from the Irish end. So, then they got married and then they have four more children. I have two older brothers, me and then Dan my younger brother. And so, there was six total children of my father and four of them were from my mother and two from my oldest sister’s mother. 4:58 AD: Are they all living in the area? CA: No, Dan– Daniel and I are the only ones here and I– my next oldest brother lives in Huntsville, Alabama, and my next oldest brother lives in Santa Cruise, California. And then my two oldest sisters, they are my half-sisters but you know mother raised them from the time when they were babies. They live in Long Island and New Jersey. 5:29 AD: So, your father basically grew up in an Armenian household, is that correct? 5:36 CA: Yes. It is. 5:37 AD: So, was he fluent in Armenian? Was he speaking Armenian? Do you remember? 5:43 CA: Yes, he grew up, he and his siblings were bilingual because they learned English in school and so they– English– they spoke Armenian at home and English in the school and they had friends as they were growing up. So– 6:06 AD: How many siblings did your father have? 6:10 CA: There were seven children, so he was one of the seven. 6:12 AD: A big family! 6:13 CA: Uh-huh. 6:14 AD: And where are those people? Are they still in the area? 6:21 CA: Right, so my– five of the siblings have passed away including my father. And the two remaining siblings are his two younger sisters Rose she lives in Doylestown in Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia and Violet is in San Diego, California. 6:40 AD: Okay, and so are they– they were obviously married right? 6:49 CA: Right, so, um Rose married a doctor in the navy who–you know, his parents were born here. He was–I do not know what their ethnicity was, Blackburn is the name and Violet also married an American, Reckonridge is his name. And Violet and Wilber had four children, four girls and my uncle and aunt adopted two children, a boy and a girl. 7:26 AD: So, what did your grandfather do when he came here? How old was he do you know that? 7:33 CA: So, my grandmother– 7:36 AD: Your grandmother and grandfather both of them– 7:37 CA: So, he had actually come here as a teenager. He stowed away on a ship and he came here and got an opportunity to work in Dunn McCarthy Shoe Factory. A lot of the immigrants to this area worked for Endicott Johnson or Dunn McCarthy Shoe Factory. So, he went back to, at that point my grandmother and her remaining family were in a refugee camp at Port Saeed in Alexandria, Egypt. So, he went back there because he had met her brother who arranged the marriage for my grandmother to marry but he came here and he secured work and then they, um, actually were in Paris for three months before they came here and they emigrated from Paris through Ellis Island together but they came to Binghamton because the jobs were at the shoe factory. 8:49 AD: So, your grandfather came here before or after the massacre– like which year was that? 9:00 CA: It was– I have to confirm the dates but when he first came here; he was undocumented and he was not authorized. So, he was, you know, as you said they communicate and I do not know how his connection was but, so he must have– 9:19 AD: Yeah, they have network and then they follow that– 9:21 CA: So, I am thinking that– so the massacre began (19)15, (19)16. So, it was probably 1918 and he was three or four years older than my grandmother. So, she was born in nineteen hundred which meant that he was born– so he probably was twenty when he came here maybe, late teens or early twenties and then– 9:53 AD: So, he escaped the massacre basically? 9:56 CA: Yeah, I am not as familiar– um we had recordings of my uncle giving us presentation in oral history we could share with you. 10:04 AD: Oh, yeah. 10:04 CA: It is a video actually. 10:06 AD: That would be fantastic. 10:06 CA: When they were together as a family a few years ago, that was done and he talks about where– he shows the map where both of his parents were from and so I am not sure, I cannot remember– 10:21 AD: No, that is fine, that is fine. 10:23 CA: So, but he actually fled the situation when his father remarried. I do not know–his mother died I think and his father remarried and the woman burned his little brother. She burned him with, I do not know if it was iron or bath and he died and so my grandfather, you know it was a bad situation and ultimately, he fled and he was living on his own from a young age. 10:58 AD: I see. 11:01 CA: So, and yeah so, my guess is that my grandmother was probably eighteen or nineteen when she came here. She did not really know her birth date. She did not know when it was. So, they estimated it. 11:14 AD: So, it was kind of like an arranged marriage? 11:17 CA: Yes, absolutely. She did not know him until the day of her marriage and then they went from Alexandria to Paris and then they came to the US. 11:29 AD: Okay, and with seven kids I assume she was a homemaker. 11:35 CA: Yes, yes. 11:36 AD: And he worked at that shoe factory? 11:38 CA: Right. 11:39 AD: Okay, so was there Armenian community at that time in Binghamton? 11:46 CA: Well it is interesting because you know there is an Armenian Church here that you are aware of on Corbett Avenue and but my grandparents were, not adopted, but the protestant church, the United Church of Christ, First Congregational Church sponsored a number of Armenians. So, those that were not aligned with the Armenian Catholic, they were protestant, came to this church and so the family, really the church was the supporting kind of entity, you know culturally and socially and so they were lifelong members of the First Congregational Church in Binghamton. 12:42 AD: I see. So, your father basically grew up in Armenian tradition? 12:53 CA: Armenian tradition in America in a very poor section of Binghamton called the first ward where all of the immigrants lived. So, he– it was not just Armenians and it is interesting I saw the list of the people you interviewed I hope that was okay– 13:18 AD: Oh, yeah, I share it– Of course, it is okay. 13:21 CA: So, it is some of the families on that list had a very different experience here than my father’s family. 13:27 AD: But that is good, that makes this collection even stronger, yeah. 13:33 CA: Right. So, his family was the poorest of the Armenians. Pretty much they were at the bottom of the Armenian food chain in our community. 13:44 AD: Really? 13:44 CA: Yeah, they were, very. 13:46 AD: Why? Do you know why? 13:48 CA: Well, you know, the Kachadourians are a family who were poor but they began buying a lot of property and they lived, it was interesting because, and if I can be completely frank there was like the– 14:11 AD: Please! 14:13 CA: So, there was the poorest, then there were those that the marginally, you know, were connected and had some resources. And then there were the more affluent. And the Kradjian family was the senior affluent Armenian family in this community. The father, Kenneth, and the dry cleaners and now they have incredible wealth. It was interesting– 14:43 AD: Troy and Bates? 14:44 CA: Bates & Troy and Ara Kradjian and Harry and Brann and their father was Kenneth–– 14:49 AD: But we did not interview with them, did we? 14:52 CA: Yeah, all of those you have on the list, I do not know. 14:54 AD: Okay, alright, so Gregory probably did it. 14:57 CA: I think there is some interview there–So, there was a hierarchy here locally amongst the Armenian socio-economic, I think, level. 15:10 AD: Yea, class differences. 15:14 CA: And I remember hearing that, because we knew, we would– so, we were based in the same First Congregational Church, my family was, but we would go to the Armenian Church Friday night, dance group. We would do Armenian dancing. We would take Armenian class and we would do like the activities associated with the Civic Association, you know, it was connecting with our heritage even at a young age, so that was how I got to meet a lot of the Armenians that went to Saint Gregory’s on Corbett Ave. So, but there was this hierarchy of the families. So, the Armenian community was tight, you know, and some of those first generations became physicians, and you know have more affluence and ultimately my father went into–he started his own vending food, vending machines where he bought a cigarette machine and a coffee machine and he put it in public places and then he grew to have a successful business of manufacturing cafeterias and then manu– and he grow and so he built his own wealth, I guess, in that regard and the–but the interesting thing is regardless of how much wealth everybody who was here either survived the genocide or their parents did. And so, they always had that. It was always that very humble, very complicated life, you know before they came to America. So, from my grandparents and their children, my father– it was a new opportunity but they struggled, they were very poor, and they were not of the upper echelon of society they were– 17:29 AD: So, did you– obviously they should tell you if they felt that way– so some of them were richer than the others. So, how were they treating each other, you know, it was a close community, you know small group, ethnic group, so were the rich Armenians kind of taking care of the poor ones like providing job for them or something like that, I mean– 18:00 CA: You know, probably I do not really know but probably. But I do remember a story that was– so Ara Kradjian– and this may have been translated to something totally different than what the reality was but he, you know his family had a level of stature here as he started to grow, and they had got considerable wealth and my father’s younger sister Violet was very beautiful and she was Armenian, and apparently he, I do not know if he had loved her but he had interest in her, and my aunt told me that they were, he was discouraged by his family because they were the poor. And I always felt sad about that. I remember hearing that and thinking my God you people came from the same horrible circumstance and one path let you have wealth and so he– so they never were together and it is kind of tragic story in a way that can be interesting and my aunt she has Alzheimer’s now. So, my fear is that those stories are lost because she does not really have the recollection or it is a different recollection or something now but that was something that made me feel very sad. 19:48 AD: It is very sad, you know, you would not think that what happen, interesting. So, and your father went married a non-Armenian person. 20:01 CA: Correct, correct. Only one of the children married an Armenian. 20:06 AD: Actually, two non-Armenian women, your father married too, right? 20:12 CA: Yes, married a Russian, a first generation Russian, Carpathian Russian and the second was my mother. So, yes, they– he married two in fact, so we call it odar it is outsider. So, the only one of my father’s siblings who married an Armenian was his older sister Lora and she married an Armenian ̶ gorian. And he was in the marines and so she had a little bit of different experience but nobody stayed in Binghamton except for my father they left and went all over the country. 21:04 AD: So, but you were told that you were Armenian when you were growing ̶ I mean when did you realize what is Armenian as a child? 21:18 CA: Well, some of it was not very good. I mean I guess I knew because we would go to my grandmother’s every Sunday and we would have sarma, which is stuffed grape leaves and pilav and the Armenian– 21:31 AD: Köfte– 21:32 CA: Yes, all of it, yes, I would love to have them–yes excellent food. So, we knew, and it was interesting because my mother was even though she was very white Anglo-WASP would encourage that and she got very involved in the Armenian AGBU, Armenian General Benevolent Union I think it is called, they are the Armenian group. They are not very active here anymore but they are quite active in the nation and so we would go to the Armenian dance and Armenian school on Friday nights. So that was our exposure and then I was probably–one of my earliest recollections was in our neighborhood the families were all very white Anglo-Saxton, Protestant or Catholic and a new family moved in and I went because they had a little boy and our yards were connected and I went down to see him and his family was Italian. And he said, I was very dark-skinned, very– I looked very Armenian, my brothers have a little lighter skin but I looked very Armenian, and he said get out of my yard, you Negro. Like trying to call me a Negro or, you know, Nigger but he said get out of my yard and then his father and mother were very Italian and very discriminating against the Armenians and as I got older we had a lake home in out in Pennsylvania and there were a number of Italians who had lake homes out on this lake and so all the kids would play together but all of the Italian kids would call us Camel Jockey and Sand Nigger ̶ 24:04 AD: Oh My God, Italians! 24:06 CA: Yes, the Italians were horrible to us and I remember going back and saying to my father what is a sand nigger, and he was like– 24:19 AD: Sorry, it is just horrible. 24:21 CA: Yeah, it is, I mean what I told Alexi, he was like you know ̶ because I said do I tell in the interview, he said absolutely. So, when I was a pre-teen in school kids would say oh are you Italian because if they look and I say yeah and I would lie and I would say that I was Italian because every experience that we were having and, you know they would be very derogatory towards my father and they were all Italian immigrants themselves and it was very interesting to say– 25:02 AD: It is interesting because Italians mostly are our complexion and whenever I travel people think I am Italian– 25:12 CA: Right that is what–growing up, that is what everybody thought. You’ve a dark hair you are Italian. It was not very diverse– 25:20 AD: Because you know not everybody knows who Armenian is. Now there are more people but still, you know, Italians are known with the olive complexion, dark hair– 25:30 CA: So, people would say oh you must be Italian–And I would say yes because it just it hurt– it hurt me terribly. 25:37 AD: Obviously! 25:39 CA: A Camel Jockey, like go get your camel– 25:42 AD: I never heard that term before, I know right now, in this century I think Sand Nigger is referred to Middle Easterner by period. 25:54 CA: but that is what they– so that is what they called–and but camel jockey was the other one like they would say, and the parents would say it. 26:00 AD: Parents! Obviously, they learned from their parents. 26:07 CA: Yes. 26:08 AD: But openly they say it? 26:08 CA: Uh-huh. 26:08 AD: That is horrible! 26:13 CA: So, I think that is the closest probably we came to being discriminated against really, but it was– it was in my formative years and I found that I would tend to hide my ethnicity then because I was shocked with the reaction. So, but I did not always do that. As I got older I was, you know, I became more committed to be– I identify as Armenian. 26:47 AD: But when you were younger– 26:53 CA: Yes. Well those experiences happened, and so the next door neighbors were different families and they were very WASPY white and so we had one day in the summer all the kids would come and we had a picnic table and my mom brought outside some food and I had a sarma and the kid said you are eating dog poop, dog doo, it looks like dogs poop, and so they were making fun of us. And we were like it is not dog’s poop, you know and they were having hot dogs my mother brought out the sarma, in the grape leaf and they were like “aaaaah”–that was another thing. It was a little bit unusual I guess– 27:42 AD: That is why, you did not want to eat any kind of food– 27:45 CA: Not in front of them. 27:46 AD: That is right. You would not take it to school for example. 27:50 CA: No, no. Not really. 27:53 AD: Because I think similar kind of things are still going on like there is still like condescending attitudes toward refugee immigrants– like what they eat or it does not smell good and stuff like that– 28:15 CA: But those were the negative impressions I got as a child but– and for a short period of time I was dishonest about my ethnicity in elementary school or, you know, I would say no I am Italian– they say “Are you Italian?” I would say “Yes.” You know, but my last name clearly did not indicate that I was Italian if they knew anything about Armenia they would know I was Armenian based on my last name. 28:41 AD: That is right. So, when you were growing up did you have Armenian friends that you played with, spent time with– 28:52 CA: So, the only connection that I had with the Armenian kids was when we would go to the Corbett Avenue Church on Friday nights and then I was part of the dance group. We did the Armenian dances and go the Civic Association and so I would say they were friends but we would see them once or twice a month; then the Kradjians were having very big picnic in the summer. They lived over behind the University and they had– they owned the land that the University is on now. 29:27 AD: Oh, really? 29:28 CA: Oh, yeah, their family home is on the university property. 29:33 AD: Oh, there is one home is that their home? 29:36 CA: It is theirs. When you coming by Denny’s. 29:39 AD: Yeah, I know that house. 29:41 CA: So that is where Kenneth and his wife lived until they died in Kenneth had remarried and his wife lived there. But the family still owns that home. AD: Who lives there right now? I do not know who is there. But I think there was some problem with the new wife and so took them a while but she moved but so they would have a big picnic and all the Armenians would come and they had a pond an area up behind the university and I would remember those days going to that. And then there was an Armenian dance every year that was put on by the AGBU. My mother was very active in organizing that. She was like the one non-Armenian. You know she was odar wife but she was very into that and so I would see them there. But I did not have an extremely strong connection with other Armenian kids because they were not in my neighborhood and they did not go to my school, and so the only way I did was by, you know, my mother taking us to Armenian dance on Friday nights and– 30:46 AD: Visiting your grandparents. 30:49 CA: Right, right. And my cousins when we would get together, so– 31:00 AD: So, you did not learn Armenian growing up? 31:05 CA: No, and I cannot speak much of it at all. I got to a point where I could understand some and my grandmother was– used hybrid of Armenian and English. She never was fully one hundred percent fluent English. She would–so but my grandfather spoke seven–spoke and read seven languages. And so, I did not really ever– 31:33 AD: I am sure he knew Turkish, your grandfather. 31:36 CA: Yes, my grandfather was very fluent in Turkish and, gosh, I am not sure the other languages French, you know– 31:47 AD: Probably French because at that time French was a second language in Ottoman Empire and that is the time period that they were sending delegates to Europe and if, you know, look at the Ottoman history those delegates were all Armenian and so because– and even like today what is– what, what is left in Istanbul, the Armenians, although we have more Armenians– Greeks are completely gone, I mean that was like big blow because of the, you know, the war and of the after the WWI when the freedom war and at that time Greece wanted piece of Turkey so that is why like there was this unbelievable hatred towards Greeks, not towards Armenians or Jews. So, that is why they were targeted the most. So, I mean, I think there are only two thousand Greeks in Istanbul anything like thousands of them. So, there is a region in Istanbul still like heavily populated. It is traditional that is their home and they still live in that region, a lot of Armenians, middle class Armenians of course like really rich ones live in other, like, more wealthy areas– 33:33 CA: Yeah, we have family that actually landed in Beirut and there is a lot of– in Beirut still to this day. 33:44 AD: That like was typical leaving. They all went to Lebanon from Lebanon to France, France to the United States and some stayed in France, they did not leave. So, they did what they got to do, you know, wherever they could get asylum they stayed in that country. So, how about your other siblings, your two older half-sisters and your, you know, blood sisters, how about your siblings, how did they feel about being Armenian? 34:29 CA: Um, you know, my oldest sister married an Armenian. She got divorced but she married an Armenian that she met–she was a camp counselor at camp Nubar which was an Armenian camp. And so, she ̶ 34:44 AD: Where was that camp? Is it still going on? 34:46 CA: You know, it may be, I have to ask her I will find out but she went there as a camper, as a younger person and then she became a counselor and her–one of her camp, like campers she supervised, she married his brother. And they were from Long Island. That is how she met him. So, they had two children together. So, my sister is half Armenian because her mother was Russian and her husband was one hundred percent Armenian and Assyrian is their name. And incidentally her father in-law is ninety-nine and lives in Florida and is driving a car and plays softball. He is an athlete. He is an anomaly. He is an amazing person. There is something great. I mean yeah, like I am wow! So, he lives he is still alive. So, they–my sister had two children. My second oldest is a lesbian. She never– she has a life partner of twenty-five years who is from Jamaica actually. So, but she has not been involved with the Armenian community but had a very, had the closest bond with my grandmother of any of us. She was at that age. We were younger, you know, so she had a very close bond with my father. She looked, she looked like me with a dark hair, dark skin and so that is her situation and then my brother Paul has never married but he has been with a woman for twenty-five years who is– I do not– she may be Jewish¬–Koenig. K-O-E-N-I-G is her name. I do not know much about her. He is not really– he does not communicate with the family since my father died. 36:57 AD: I see. 36:58 CA: So, we do not hear a lot from him. And then my brother Peter who was closest in age to me who lives in Alabama is divorced and he has a fourteen-year-old daughter. And he married a Southern– 37:20 AD: Belle. 37:21 CA: Yeah, Southern belle Baptist like, yeah, yeah that was an interesting coupling. I am not sure how that happened but it did not last. So, and then me, and then my brother Dan, so, but, you know, that is kind of how we grew up we– Dan did not really have the exposure to the Armenian community because by the time he was growing up, my parents were divorcing and you know the community here has gotten very diluted. People my age many have moved away, you know many of the–there is still some here, and someone you should talk to is Talene Kachadourian. I have some other people that I think might be interested so– 38:19 AD: Kachadourian is Jackie–my student is Kachadourian. Her uncle is the surgeon. So, and then her father is the lawyer. 38:35 CA: Okay, that is her cousin is Talene. And Talene is younger than me a little bit. But she is very– she identify as almost only Armenian. 38:51 AD: So how do you– Talene– 38:53 CA: T-A-L-E-N-E. So, you could tell Jackie that her cousin Talene, her father is the surgeon. 38:56 AD: Talene’s father is the surgeon. 39:01 CA: Talene is the president of the Greater New York Armenian Professional Group. 39:10 AD: Oh, really! 39:11 CA: It has thousands of people involved. And she is– I do not know how the family gets along–How the cousins get along– 39:19 AD: I will check with Jackie. Jackie is– I wish her schedule fit it–I would have brought here extremely sweet girl. I love her to pieces. I mean she is such a nice girl! 39:33 CA: Is she related, is Corinne? So how old is Jackie? 39:40 AD: Jackie is sophomore right now, nineteen, maximum twenty. 39:46 CA: Okay, so she is. So, Jackie is her– 39:55 AD: She has an older sister I do not know her name. 40:00 CA: Right, but her parent– 40:01 AD: Her father is the lawyer. 40:02 CA: Right, and her grandfather is a lawyer. 40:05 AD: I think so yes. 40:07 CA: So, her father– Jackie’s father did Armenian dance and Jackie’s aunt Corinne did Armenian dance with me. So, her parents are my generation. 40:20 AD: She is very– I mean, when you see Jackie talk to her and you would never think she has an extremely strong sense of Armenian in her but I interviewed with her and so she really wants to marry an Armenian like extremely pro-Armenian. There is nothing wrong with that. But what I am saying is like after so many generations it is still very strong, so that is like amazing to me. 40:52 CA: You know who else did that was Brian Kradjian. So, Brian is our son and Brian is my Brother Dan’s age. 41:01 AD: Oh really? 41:02 CA: And he dated my niece who was Armenian and it is interesting because he only wanted an Armenian girl. He was with some people that were not but ultimately, he married a Los Angeles Armenian who was from I believe Lebanon. I am not sure where she is from but Alexi met her and totally speaks Russian because she was part of the Soviet– But Brian is another interesting person no I am just going to have you to turn it off for one second if possible– 41:48 AD: Okay, so we are back now. So, your first husband was not an Armenian– 41:57 CA: No, he was a WASP, very WASP. Shetler was the name. I was young and I was married for a short time. But he–yeah very, very WASPY background. 42:14 AD: Okay, and you have how many children? 42:17 CA: I have one. So, I was married at twenty-three. I got divorced. I met my second husband, the son of–who was the father of my son. He– Williams, that is my name from, you, know, the time– 42:33 AD: That is not Armenian either. 42:35 CA: No, no, no. He was Polish. His father was one hundred Polish and his father English. So– 42:42 AD: What is your son’s name? 42:45 CA: Nathan. 42:43 AD: Not Armenian. 42:45 CA: No, Nathan David Williams. 42:49 AD: Okay, very American, western. So, you did not want to give any Armenian name, not even like middle name? 42:57 CA: Yeah, no I did not, I did not– his middle name is his father’s name David. So, no, I did not. I was going to name him after my father, Peter, but my brother Dan, well Peter is younger than my son but it was almost like I was giving my brothers the opportunity to name a boy, Peter Abashian after our father. 43:32 AD: I see. So, how about your son? Was he involved in anything Armenian related? 43:40 CA: No, not really, he did the only thing is that Corrine, Phil’s daughters he went to school with them; Catholic school and he went to Catholic school. I was a Catholic. But so, he had some exposure in that regard and attended the Armenian dances. That is about it. He has not really had, he did– he is exposed to the food through my father and my family get togethers. 43:32 AD: I see. 44:12 CA: But he did not– I did not raise him– I mean he did some papers in school about his grandmother and the Armenian Genocide and such but he never really had much connection. 44:31 AD: So, but he knows he has an Armenian ancestry? 44:36 CA: Oh, absolutely. 44:38 AD: So, does he acknowledge that he is partially Armenian like if I meet him and if ask him what is your background is, would he– 44:48 CA: Absolutely, he would say my father is Polish and my mother– 44:50 AD: is Armenian– 44:52 CA: Uh-huh. 44:52 AD: So, okay, all right. So, let us see. So other than your grandparents, you did not have like full Armenian–I mean, other than your father obviously but you had like uncles, your great uncles, great aunts, those people were around you too right, Your grandfather’s siblings? 45:31 CA: No, no. 45:32 AD: I mean no, no. your father’s siblings. 45:33 CA: My father’s siblings, yes. So, they were my uncles and aunts yes. 45:37 AD: Yeah, yeah. They were around. So, okay, let me see I was thinking something. So, who was talking about what happened to your grandparents? Was it your grandfather– how do you know what their story is– I mean obviously some– 46:03 CA: My grandmother shared with her children and her children shared the story and I remember– do you know the card game ishli. I do not know what it is. So, my grandmother used to always want to teach me this ishli. I never knew how to play it. I do not know, but it was something she said she played her whole life as a child with some cards like playing cards. She called it ishli. 46:32 AD: I think it is– it must be because that is like really common card game over there. Maybe they were using another name so it is like four people play. 46:44 CA: Yeah, I really do not understand how it is played. I used to just pretend because I did not know and I did not– You know, she sometimes struggled with her language so it was difficult and I did not understand Armenian– so, oh, I am sorry I told you only one of my father’s sisters married Armenian. The second one did– married an Armenian doctor. So, she also was very– She was the one who– I am going to give you– I can send this to you via email but she penned this poem that talks about her grandmother’s death and how her– she sacrificed her sons on Musa Dagh (Turkish: Musa Dağı) and you know the story is that the survivors were rescued by a French ̶ They held sheets over the edge of the cliff that said SOS and they were– and it is a very interesting story but I just wanted to show you just something I took the picture of this morning two other things I took pictures of just to show you. So here is the family. This is my father ̶ 47:57 AD: Oh, that is wonderful. 48:00 CA: This is a picture we have in our home but, so he was white, very white, pale. My grandmother I look similar to her. And so, this is them and this is their family. So here is Sarah, she married an Armenian doctor from Pennsylvania. This is Steve, he married a Southern belle. This is my father Peter. So, this is my lineage right here. This is my grandmother and to think that she really was not thirty years old here she looks so old to me, you know, they are just amazing and this is– so Sarah, this is Lora, this Is Alec, and this is Rose and Violet was not even born when this picture was taken. So, here they are with six of their seven children. But this was– this is a classic photo. 49:04 AD: Yeah, probably all those birds and the lifestyle that is why she aged, you know what I mean? 49:09 CA: Yeah, she was an old soul when she came here. You know, what she survived. 49:16 AD: Giving birth to six children and you did not even know if she lost any in between. 49:20 CA: Right, right we do not know that. But this is the memorial to my grandmother I will send this to you and then I will make the copy of it but it is the poem of my aunt Sarah the oldest girl. She was the one who most connected with our Armenian heritage and our parents. And it is just a beautiful, beautiful haunting and she never met her obviously because she died but it is– but I will share that you with something that I have on my will. 49:56 AD: So, your grandmother told some stories to her children like what had happened like to her family. How about your grandfather, was he also like sharing anything? 50:51 CA: I think he was quieter. He would share some with his children but honestly the majority of the verified history comes from my uncle in his travels. He was a physicist, a world renowned physicist and he did work in Yerevan, and he has done a significant amount of research and if I show you this video, give you this video I have it on CD, DVD, you will see everything that he learned and he told us the story and there is documented histories that some of my cousins and their spouses had continued to tell and it is like these documented things that keep getting added to. So, but the stories started with my grandparents but my uncle being– he was then professor Emeritus and the Virginia Tech and he did– so he documented a lot for the rest of it– he did, he did and we were close but we have video of him telling the story and with a map and you know here–we are all sitting there its out at our camp so I would be happy to share it with you because it is– 51:40 AD: Yeah that gives the family history, absolutely. So, is there anything like left over from your grandmother like anything like represents, like for example you have this poem you cherish, like anything like did she do anything like whatever, handmade ̶ 52:09 CA: Crochet, she did– she learnt that here was not really Armenian style– 52:14 AD: It is here. 52:15 CA: It is something here but I do have and I do not wear it much it is an eighteen-carat gold bangle. She had two when she came here; bracelet that I have had repaired it a number of times. It is soft gold but I wore it a lot, but it is a beautiful– 52:37 AD: Do you know what it is called because of the carat. 52:40 CA: Right, the high quality, and I have had it repaired; it is a cool thing I will be happy to show you, you know but there– 52:48 AD: So, she came with that. 52:50 CA: She had two of them when she came with them and my cousin has the other one. My sister has other artifacts, like my grandfather’s prayer beads, these special beads. There are certain things that we had but not too much tangible and intangible but my sister has a lot of photographs, we have, you know we have numbers of them but so yeah, I would be happy to give you photos and– 53:30 AD: So, you met them right your grandparents? 53:32 CA: Oh, yes, yes. So, they lived in Binghamton until maybe 1972. 53:41 AD: So, you were still young? 53:44 CA: Well– eleven, twelve–they moved out with my aunt in California and then they died there as they got older but we spent a lot of time with them when I was young. 53:57 AD: So, do you remember their house? 54:01 CA: Uh-huh. They lived down Mathew Street in Binghamton. 54:04 AD: So, like when you entered the house did it look like any other American house or was it different? 54:10 CA: Yeah, it did. It did. It was American looking. I remember the smell. 54:16 AD: Okay, so it smelt different right? 54:18 CA: It did. It smelled like lamb, yeah. I mean I remember that smell. And when I smell it I have a neighbor who is Lebanese and when she– I smell and it is like [gasps] you know because it is not–yeah– 54:31 AD: Smell is one of the important– it triggers our memory that is for sure. So, but not because like, I do not know the way they decorated the house or– 54:43 CA: Yeah, it was just more various plain simple nothing, nothing overly–so they had pictures of two famous paintings, I remember, the blue boy, the guy– I have to find them for you I do not know what they are but you know every American home has them. Like some kind of you know, they were fake and you call two things and it is interesting do you know this story about when all the men were gone this book– 55:30 AD: Yes, yes. 55:32 CA: So, my grandparents had a radio on Clinton Street and were referencing this book. So, this book I actually gave to an alumni era but those are reference to my family– 55:49 AD: Who is the author? Do you know the author? 55:51 CA: Yes, Alexi is very close with the guy Ron Capalaces. 55:54 AD: Really? 55:55 CA: He is– this is fascinating. Have you read this book? 55:58 AD: No, I have not. 55:59 CA: So, I am– these are my campus copies but Alexi will give you this book to read we have a few copies at home so you can read it. And it is all about growing up in the first world and when this book came out I felt like I was getting a glimpse into my father’s growing up on Clinton Street, and it is a story about in the first world war I told you all the immigrants lived, and when the men went to war and what it was like for these young boys, and this is– so, I cannot remember what page it is on– it is more towards the beginning. It is very simple writing. It is not academic at all. It is a –he tells a great story– 56:56 AD: But that is a memoire. 56:57 CA: Yeah. 56:57 AD: Yeah, I love that kind of work. 57:01 CA: On the street the native languages are various first worlders filled the shops, grocery stores and bars. From Slovak and Polish to Russian Lithuanian blah blah blah. There is a reference of them going into the Abashian’s apartment on Clinton Street and listening to the radio– 57:20 AD: That is your– 57:21 CA: That is my father’s– 57:26 AD: House? 57:27 CA: Yeah, it was the apartment that he was born on Clinton Street– 57:30 AD: Wow! 57:30 CA: And it was interesting they were so poor but they had a radio, you know. 57:34 AD: Wow! Yeah. 57:38 CA: There is a reference to it here. Alexi can tell you everything about it and he will loan you a copy, the book it is very fascinating. But it is not a lot about Armenians– but it is only references. 57:52 AD: Probably we have it in special collections, if it is local history– 57:54 CA: Right you might– 57:58 AD: Yeah, I can just grab it from the stacks and look at it. So, who is this Ronald? 58:04 CA: Ron Capalaces, he was a guy who is younger than my father but he lives in North Caroline now and he just told his story of his childhood. I mean he had a different career. He was not a writer. This would have been the last ten years. 58:23 AD: He’s just retired? 58:24 CA: Yeah, and decided he wanted to tell the story and it is a fascinating– and I give this as gifts to all alumni graduates where an eight years old who grew up in the first world and who are so moved emotionally moved by it they live all over the country you know and they give us money to support, you know, alumni and support the campus so we give those to them. 58:51 AD: Oh, yeah. So, do you cook Armenian food? 58:54 CA: So, one staple that we cook all of the time is Armenian rice pilaf and I do it because I like it but Alexi loves it and he wants it when he is not eating potatoes because he is Russian. [laughs] He eats potatoes all the time. He loves pilaf. So, it is the one staple, and we do– the only time I cook Armenian food is when we get together as a family. We make shish kebab. We do the köfte, fasulye is– my sister is an expert in it. We do this, sarma, dolma. We also– my family and I am not sure it was really my grandmother would make matsun on the counter, the yogurt. So, this was an interesting thing is that she came with a jar of starter, you know how when you make yogurt, you use the pre– and she in her entire life made matsun with the starter that came and it was this– so she brought it with her. It was like bringing a piece of her family and she gave some to my mother and my mother would make it and then you know put it and scald the milk put the starter in it, put on the counter. My grandmother would put her sweater around the bowl, wrap it with a towel and then put a sweater and button the sweater up. It was a very fascinating thing and would sit on the counter. So, I eat a lot of plain yogurt. 1:00:36 AD: Me too. 1:00:36 CA: We do, because we were raised on it. So that is one staple. That and pilaf are regular staples in my diet. 1:00:45 AD: And it is very digestive, if you have like a bad stomach– 1:00:48 CA: I do actually– I do. 1:00:49 AD: Yeah, that is the way to go. Oh, so that is interesting. So, who taught you how to cook Armenian food? 1:00:55 CA: So, my grandmother taught my mother and my mother taught me and my aunts, you know, when get together in the family groups. We had so many more get together. My father and his siblings would all get together at least once to twice a year in Binghamton and all the kids would come and all my cousins and it would be all Armenian food. So– 1:01:24 AD: And çörek right? 1:01:27 CA: Right. She did not make that too much, she made some other things. Some of the stuff I have because of the Armenian Church, you know they’ve sales, you know they have the– but my grandmother– one of my cousins put together some recipes from my grandmother’s, you know, how they made, you know, it was interesting because it was not measure, you know, he was like [making a sound] you do this [making a sound] you know, and she would say get this much– this was not really– but different kind of breads and rolls and different, you know, things but– so– but we do not do it often enough, you know, we do like once a year when we get together in the summer and we make everything but– 1:02:12 AD: So, have you ever wondered like where your ancestor came from? Did you–like–did you want to go back and see? After it is very safe right now? 1:02:28 CA: You know– yeah, I mean right now, I would not but there was a time in my life like I did. I mean my aunt Sarah the oldest did a lot of travel in Lebanon, and you know, the artist Guiragossian? 1:02:47 AD: Uh-huh? 1:02:48 CA: My aunt was close with him. I do not know, but my sister has some very big valuable Guiragossian pieces that were my aunt’s. And one when he painted of her. I do not know what the relationship there was but you know– 1:03:14 AD: Artists, you never know right? 1:03:15 CA: Yeah, you know. But she spent a lot of time with him like in France and you know it is just something just made me think of that, but my aunt spent a lot of time and my uncle did a lot, the physicist, did a lot with sharing with us about his travel to Yerevan, he was helping them with some physicist related things or super some kind of collider thing to help stir the Armenian economy with technical things. And so, he Hovnanian actually to as he who travelled with there, and they Hovnanian supported all of kind things like orphanages and schools and everything and then my uncle also did a lot of that. And I cannot remember the relationship that we have a relation to previous Armenian president; my family, I do not know what the relationship is, it may be in that video but so it is another interesting story. 1:04:29 AD: Yeah, that is interesting. I think Yerevan is okay to travel. 1:04:34 CA: Yeah, actually my niece went there with her friends. She is very connected with her Armenian heritage. She is also gay. She is– but she speaks Armenian. They went to Armenian school, you know, in Long Island up to six grade but she went and she– they had a horrible experience because she got sick and the environment and the town in which they went, and she had to go to the hospital because she got, you know, like a belly bug and she needed to get some IV but it was very primitive and she had a horrible experience but– and her partner is Armenian. 1:05:17 AD: From the US. 1:05:18 CA: So, she– her parents are from, yes, she is from LA area but her parents are first generation– maybe they lived in Armenia, might’ve been part of the Los Angeles settlement but they would probably love to talk to you and they are young. They are very involved with the gay Armenian network. 1:05:42 AD: It does not matter– I would love to! 1:05:45 CA: They are young people. So, I mean they are in their thirties and very well-connected. 1:05:50 AD: I mean the thing is this project is not–it is like really third, fourth generation. So, like how– you know, how it was like growing up here what stayed, what did not stay. So, language is the very first thing is out of the picture, not just for Armenian community, for every immigrant communities. The very first thing people lose is the language. 1:06:20 CA: Now, Lata grew up speaking Armenian and her parents speak it. So, she is extremely fluent. 1:06:28 AD: But that is like one special case, and so that would be great if she would talk to me– even you know we can do skype interview. I do a lot of skype interviews. So, they need to like go anywhere, or we can just talk on skype. 1:06:45 CA: They would love to talk to you about it. 1:06:47 AD: That would be great. 1:06:50 CA: It is interesting that they are– of their generation– our children’s generation– they are the most connected. 1:06:58 AD: That is like really interesting. 1:07:01 CA: Her mother has not connected really but she is. 1:07:05 AD: So that is interesting like how it skipped a generation and the started again. So that– I would love to talk to her if she wants– 1:07:12 CA: She would absolutely want to talk to you. She just got back from the Washington march. She is out of her mind crazy. She is so upset. She cannot even speak. She is like, you know, she is not speaking to her father right now. 1:07:28 AD: Wow. 1:07:30 CA: It is that bad. Yeah. 1:07:32 AD: So, what happened to your parents? So, they got divorced, are they– is anyone alive? 1:07:37 CA: No, they are both dead. So, my parents got divorced when I had gone away to school and– 1:07:46 AD: Where did you go to school? 1:07:47 CA: So, I went away in my high school–senior of high school to a private college preparatory school in New Hampshire. And then I went to Hartwick College for two years and then I got sick, I actually came home. I had gotten sick. I have a Crohn’s disease, it is a bowel disease, so I ended up coming home because I had a major surgery and I withdrew from school and then I finished one class at a time in Binghamton and I worked in my father’s business. I worked with him. 1:08:20 AD: I see. 1:08:21 CA: So, my parents got divorced and then my father remarried a third time– a woman– 1:08:32 AD: Another non-Armenian? 1:08:33 CA: Non-Armenian. They got whiter by the minute they got white WASPY southern this last one was more Southern and she– they did not stay together but so it is an interesting story but, so yeah, they divorced and my mother died in two thousand and two. Actually, right before I met Alexi she died. She had lung cancer and she died. She was sixty-six, young. 1:09:06 AD: Very young. 1:09:07 CA: Yeah, young and my father had, he died at eighty-two, six years ago, in Florida. So, it has been a big that was difficult, oh, because Alexi was very close with my father. 1:09:25 AD: Oh, really! 1:09:26 CA: He does not have an overly close relationship with his father but he is getting there now, you know, because his mother raised him. His parents split when he was two. So, he was– he became very attached to my father. And spent summers with him, at the lake house and you know, just a very, very good relationship. So, we have in the last six years now, since he has been gone, it has been very– it is hard, you know. 1:10:01 AD: Oh, yeah, I can imagine. So, you were really close to your father? 1:10:06 CA: Yes, yes, I was close to both of my parents, very close. So– 1:10:13 AD: Yeah, that must be sad. 1:10:15 CA: It is hard because something happens– are your parents– either of your parents living? 1:10:21 AD: My father died when I was seven years old, yeah but thank God my mom is still with us knock on wood so– yeah so, she is eighty-two years old and so that is the reason I go to Turkey every summer and then my daughter, also, she loves spending time with her. So, every summer we go there and always kind of like so she is, I mean she is like waiting for us to arrive and it was sad to leave her behind because– 1:10:55 CA: She does not want to come? 1:10:59 AD: She came when my daughter was born to help me and– but, you know, when you are old, although, a lot of her friends are dead now, but still it is her own environment– 1:11:13 CA: Well, Alexi’s mother came here last year and it did not work. 1:11:18 AD: Did she go back? 1:11:19 CA: Yeah. She did and she said Russia might be terrible but it is all I know–you know there is a lot of complicated factors but it is–there is a guy actually he is married to the daughter of one of my neighbors and he taught here, he is math. And he is Turkish and his mother will not come here, and she is very old and he travels and she will not come here and we were having this conversation– 1:11:51 AD: Someone from Turkey teaches math here– 1:11:57 CA: Right, he just retired but he is, he is in Binghamton. Yeah, he lives in Binghamton and his wife is Italian, married to Italian. They grew up in Australia interestingly enough but– 1:12:09 AD: Okay, so a lot of Turkish people migrated to Australia like after they stopped going Germany they started to go to Australia. You know Australia takes a lot of immigrants, a lot of Greeks, I think more Greeks went to Australia than Turks. So, there are some Kurds too. So apparently, his family migrated to– 1:12:35 CA: Well, actually his mother still lives in Turkey. She lives in the South in a beautiful like almost tropical beautiful area– 1:12:43 AD: Mersin probably. 1:12:44 CA: Yeah, so she still lives there but his wife’s–his wife was born there they live in Binghamton but Tony is Italian but the Italians settled in Australia, I do not know how the whole thing worked out. 1:13:03 AD: A lot of Italian– so he did not settle in–his family did not settle in Australia. I know there are a lot of Greeks, Italians, and Turks migrated there because they were taking all these immigrants in the sixties. So, what is his name? 1:13:18 CA: I cannot remember his name but her father’s name is Marcello. I can find out. I can find out who he is. 1:13:24 AD: No that is okay. I am not very connected with Turkish community. I mean, I never even knew there was a Turkish professor here teaching math, I had no idea. 1:13:42 CA: Yeah and he was here a lot of years he just retired because I talked to him this fall when he was across the street visiting the– so– I have to go to the ladies’ room. 1:13:54 AD: Yeah, yeah. No that is fine! I think that is it. We really covered it all. 1:13:56 CA: Thank you. 1:14:00 AD: Well, thank you so much and then I will just end this. Let me just stop it. (End of Recording) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Date of Interview 11/4/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jacqueline Kachadourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:11 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Jackie is a student at Binghamton University, double majoring in studio art and theatre with concentrations in painting and costume design. She is active in her local community and is very passionate about her family's history with Armenia. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Jackie is a student at Binghamton University, double majoring in Studio Art and Theatre with concentrations in Painting and Costume Design. She is active in her local community and is very passionate about her family's history with Armenia. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Armenia; Lebanon; Montreal; church; genocide; identity; traditions; Sunday school; death march; Armenian dance; Christmas; religion; food; Mount Ararat; literature; politics; diaspora&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Armenia; Lebanon; Montreal; Church; Genocide; Identity; Traditions; Sunday school; Armenian dance; Christmas; Religion; Food; Mount Ararat; Literature; Politics; Diaspora.</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Jackie Kachadourian Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen; Marwan Tawfiq Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 4 November 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 AD: Okay, so today is November 4, 2016, and I am here with Marwan Tawfiq, and we are interviewing with Jackie Kachadourian. Okay, so Jackie could you please give us your full name? 0:24 JK: My full name is Jacqueline Nora Kachadourian. 0:27 AD: Okay, and can you tell us when and where you were born? 0:33 JK: I was born on July 16, 1997. I am from¬¬– I was born in Johnson City, New York. 0:42 AD: At Wilson Hospital? 0:43 JK: Yes. 0:44 AD: Okay, so why do not you give us some information about your family? 0:53 JK: Okay, so on my mom’s side– both my parents are 100 percent Armenian which makes me 100 percent Armenian. On my mom’s side, she was born in Lebanon and her father was born in Antep, Turkey. And her mother was born in Lebanon to my grandfather and my grandmother. And on my dad’s side they were all from Armenia, they had to leave during the genocide and they had to go through Cuba, I believe, to come to the US. But I am more familiar with my mother’s side of the family rather than my dad’s side. And my mom ended up in Lebanon and then she moved to Montreal during the civil war because it was too much. And my dad has always lived in Binghamton, New York. So– 1:47 AD: So your dad was born and raised in Binghamton? 1:51 JK: Yes. 1:52 AD: Okay, so your mom was born in, what ̶ Beirut? 1:55 JK: Yes, Beirut. 1:56 AD: Beirut. So, when did she move to Montreal? 2:00 JK: She moved when she was a teenager around like twelve or thirteen I believe. Her and mother and her father, so my grandmother and grandfather, they all lived in Beirut, my grandfather had a textile factory. So they all stayed there. And on my mom’s side– she has four other siblings. So, all they left first and they got sponsored by one of our family members to go to Montreal and so they went first and then they left my mom and my grandmother and my grandfather and they came afterwards. So– 2:45 AD: I see. So, you still have family living in Lebanon? 2:49 JK: Yes, actually my– one of my mom’s aunts she just left to go back to Lebanon. So now I have two great aunts still in Lebanon. 3:00 AD: They live in Beirut still? 3:02 JK: I believe so. I have to check. 3:04 AD: They are in Lebanon and you are not sure if it is Beirut or not. So, what is the language, I know you will interview with your mother, you can ask her that, but what is the languages in your household–which language do you guys speak? 3:21 JK: We speak English but when my mom is talking on the phone with her family she speaks Armenian so I pick up a few words here and there and then when my grandmother was still alive she, when we were little, she spoke Armenian to us, she only spoke Armenian to us, and we were out and about like in a store or something if my mom wants to say something she would say it in Armenian so other people do not understand which is funny. So I still understand it I just have a harder time speaking it rather than hearing it. 4:00 AD: Okay, so how about your dad? 4:02 JK: He speaks Armenian but he does not write it, but my mom can write it. 4:05 AD: Okay, so did your mom go to Armenian school in Beirut? 4:10 JK: I do not think she went to Armenian school, I do not know but she learned Armenian first and then in school she learnt– She learnt Turkish through her family at home because if they did not want to say something– the parents– they spoke in Turkish so they do not understand but they ended up learning it. And then in school she learnt French, English and Arabic because it was Arabic was, in Lebanon you have to learn Arabic– 4:43 AD: And French also a mandatory language especially for certain class of people at that time. So, but you speak English at home? 4:55 JK: Yeah. 4:56 AD: How about your parents? How do they communicate? 5:00 JK: I would say seventy percent English, thirty percent Armenian, so like, if my parents want to say something in Armenian then they do not want us to understand, they say it in Armenian but like I can pick up few words, and it might not be the direct translation but I like can kinda get a just of it but my younger brother he does not understand any of it, he understand like one or two words maybe, and my sister, she understands more of it. 5:30 AD: So, how many siblings your mother has? 5:33 JK: She has four other siblings. So she has an older sister an older– three older brothers and she is the last one. 5:43 AD: Okay. And they all live in Montreal? 5:47 JK: No, one lives in France and he is like, he helps with the University of– like looking at different energy resources. He used to own a vineyard and now he does research. Yeah. 6:01 AD: Oh, where does he live in France? 6:04 JK: He lives in the South part of France; I do not know the exact city. But he– when he was in Lebanon he got a scholarship to go to study in France at a University and he did that and then he stayed there. 6:18 AD: You never visited him in France? 6:19 JK: No, my sister did, I was not born yet and I never had a chance. 6:23 AD: So, he does not come here? 6:25 JK: He goes to Montreal. I think he has only been to the United States like our area few times. 6:30 AD: So, you are not very close to him? 6:34 JK: Not as close as my other aunts and uncles. 6:37 AD: So, where are the other aunts and uncles? 6:41 JK: Well, my aunt lives in Montreal, so does my uncle and one uncle actually passed away a few years ago. He lived in Montreal as well. So they all lived like around fifteen minutes away from each other. 6:54 AD: So how did your mother make it to Binghamton, then? 6:57 JK: Well, my grandfather on my mom’s side, his sister came to North New Jersey, instead of going to Montreal and so she visited some of her cousins and stuff and they were both, my dad was in north Jersey too at an Armenian Church and it was like after the Church they have like dinner service and so both of them were there and they actually sat at the same table and they met, and– 7:28 AD: And they fell in love– 7:30 JK: Yeah, I guess so. [laughs] 7:34 AD: So, does your mom work? 7:38 JK: She used to work with my dad– help out with– because he used to have a law firm and now he works with the Broome County like law department, I do not know with family court. So now he does not have his own law office anymore but she used to work with that and they also, they had like stocks and stuff, so but now she just not really– 8:02 AD: She is not working. How old is she? 8:04 JK: She is fifty-three. She was born in 1964. 8:13 AD: My age, she is one year younger than me. 8:15 JK: Okay. 8:15 AD: Okay. All right. What is her education? What did she study? 8:21 JK: She studied Economics or Accounting in the University of Montreal, I believe, and she like worked at car dealerships and did the accounting for that like paperwork and finance and then when she came here it was different for her so, it is hard– 8:39 AD: Oh, isn’t that different for all of us. So, and your father went to school? 8:46 JK: Yeah, he went to Binghamton University and then for his law degree he went to Syracuse. 8:52 AD: Okay, so he is a lawyer? 8:55 JK: Yes. 8:56 AD: And, now tell me about your siblings. 9:00 JK: I have an older sister, she goes to Binghamton University as well, and she is a Psychology major with a Chemistry minor and she is a senior, she is like– she is twenty-two years old and my other younger brother, and he is at Vestal Middle School, and I believe he is in eighth grade, so. 9:24 AD: You believe. 9:27 JK: I believe so [laughs], he is twelve years old, or no he is thirteen. 9:34 AD: [laughs] Okay, so and you go to Binghamton University as well? 9:39 JK: Yes. 9:39 AD: And studying? 9:40 JK: I am double major studying in Studio Art, the concentration and Painting and the Theatre with the concentration and Costume Design. 9:48 AD: But you also mentioned something about Physics? 9:50 JK: Yes, I am very interested in minoring in Physics. I want to take a lot of classes but hopefully it will add up to a minor but I am not sure with all the other classes I have but hopefully it works out. 10:04 AD: Okay, so, now tell me about growing up, like when your great aunt especially when you see them or your family, do you hear stories about the past? 10:23 JK: Yes, of course, especially when I was little they used to tell stories and even now like as you are getting more– understanding more idea of what was going on but like in Montreal whenever we go and visit them, they usually try to inform us of what happened and like what the family went through. For example on my dad’s side one of my aunts she was telling me that like this is one of my great aunts, she was telling me how she had to leave everything of her; birth certificate and everything like no clothes no nothing and she could not– she does not– she did not remember how old she was because they do not have a birth certificate, so it is really interesting. 11:12 AD: I see. So do you remember any stories? 11:16 JK: Yeah, actually on my mom’s side, my grandfather he was born I believe in 1909 or sometime before the genocide occurred and he remembered walking, he had to do the march– walk and he was in Turkey which was like near Armenia so they had to leave and they walked and she remembered– he remembered that her mother died–his mother died during the walk and it was just him and his father, but– and his other siblings. Also there was a lot of Turkish people obviously, some, like, our neighbors, their neighbors were Turkish, some would helped them which was really interesting some would not help which is obvious, for obvious reasons but it is nice to see that some obviously did help them try and escape and things like that, then on my mom’s side, her– I believe– yeah her father or someone worked for the Army so they got to deceive them so they did not– they were not killed because they were Armenians, so they worked for them to– so would not die. 12:43 AD: I see. I see. So, when did you– so you were always aware of being Armenian growing up and what did it represent to you? 12:59 JK: It represented strong identity. I always thought– from a young age my mom informed me about being Armenian and things like that so when I was like in elementary school remember doing projects like about our heritage. People would be like what is Armenian. They really did not know what it was except for like European countries and things like that. That was all they really came in contact with but like I did projects like Armenian Genocide and so from a young age I was very informed about who I was and what, where I came from. 13:35 AD: Okay. So, what are the things like your mom did in your house that represents Armenian heritage? 13:48 JK: She would show me books and stuff like that obviously not war books but we used to go to church, Sunday school when we were little. My grandmother she was a big influence too, told us about like stories of Armenian and like reading the bible in Armenian– there is Armenian bible– ood is a big part of it, we would help her make food and stuff so, over all– 14:23 AD: Like any, like– what is it– crafts or I do not know decorations pieces or anything? 14:33 JK: Well my grandmother she knew how to sew, so she would show us how to knit and sew, and she would knit us things, and I learned how to knit and sew from her like various not in great detail but I learnt some techniques and then I remember during Sunday school I would do like drawings of Armenia like Armenian flags. And also like American flags too, some American as well. But I– when I was little I always knew I was Armenian and I always a hundred percent Armenian, I do not know from a very young age. 15:10 AD: Okay, so is there an Armenian community that your family are part of it here? 15:13 JK: There is but is very, the community here is very old, it is getting older and there is not as much people my age, but I feel like now there is going to be a younger generation like so my brother– younger brother’s age like around there. But we used to all go to Armenian Church and everything, Sunday school but I feel like as time went on, people started to leave and like move away to other places because there is not much of an Armenian culture here in Binghamton. So it is very hard to find but in Montreal there is so much more vibrancy of Armenian culture which is really interesting, so. 16:08 AD: Yeah, so the people who live here are mostly older people. 16:12 JK: Yeah, like my family they are very old and they are a older generation so, I think that it had influence on me though because they are very strict and very strong about their Armenian heritage, so kind of flowed on me but there was a few kids here and there but not too many. 16:38 AD: Not too many. So, your dad and your mother met at the church and they married, so do your parents tell you that they would like to see you marrying an Armenian boy or stuff like that? 16:57 JK: Yeah, recently my dad, because my sister she is like I am not going find any Armenian boys here [laughs] my age and he said– she asked him do I have to marry an Armenian, she was like joking around–he was like well I married an Armenian because my family died for– the Armenians died to survive their culture and their heritage so it is the right thing to do because of his– the relatives– and they want me to marry an Armenian, I want to marry an Armenian, I think that would be interesting but like I am not going to force myself to marry an Armenian if I do not like them. I do not know– It is a factor but it is not a factor so. I would like to marry an Armenian. 17:44 AD: You would like to marry an Armenian in order to continue? 17:53 JK: Yeah. 17:53 AD: Okay. What else? Do you have anything? 17:58 MT: So, do you particularly remember anything or did they tell you anything about the genocide like your grandparents? 18:08 JK: My grandfather he died before I was born and then my grandmother on my mom’s side she died in two thousand four so I was quite young but I remember just they would tell me like stories that were really, I do not know very– like the death march they used to talk about that and how they would not get– I remember one of my great aunts they would tell me how they would throw bread at us or at them, their family and they would not–they would have been starving themselves, they did not have anything, they had to leave all their stuff and, yeah I have to–I do not really talk about it with my– on my dad’s side, I have to ask more about it and I believe they came through Cuba and then came up here but– 19:04 MT: So has your family visited Armenia? 19:07 JK: No. Most of my family on my mom’s side has been to Armenia and then on my dad’s side too, as well they went to Armenia few years ago I believe, like with the church. We never went, I do not think my– I think my dad was too nervous because of the times and like what was going on– it is the Middle East. They do not want to go, but I really want to go. I want to go and help out and do what I can and learn about the culture, I want to go a lot of times hopefully. 19:39 AD: Yes, but did anyone, anybody go back to Antep? 19:44 JK: Antep, no. 19:46 AD: Because that is the home town, right? 19:48 JK: Yeah. I do not think they would, because now it is part of Turkey. 19:51 AD: It is. 19:52 JK: So, I believe before that was maybe part of Armenia, I am not sure. 19:57 AD: No, it was Ottoman Empire. 19:58 JK: Oh, yeah. 20:00 AD: There was no Turkish Republic. 20:02 JK: Yeah. 20:02 AD: So, the massacre happened actually during Ottoman Empire, so that was like toward the end, and it was part of the Ottoman Empire, all these areas, that massacre took place. So, nobody went back to Antep? 20:28 JK: No, I do not think so. I would have to ask, but I do not believe so. 20:33 AD: So, and then like the family does not know if anybody left behind? 20:40 JK: I am not sure, I would have to ask. I know just my grandfather’s mother she died during the walk and the march. 20:52 AD: I mean alive, not dead. 20:55 JK: Okay. I have no idea I would have to ask but not sure, maybe like from the orphanages or something. 21:00 AD: Yeah. Or maybe they were able to hide or runaway and you know left the East, maybe went to the Western part of the country. I do not know, I mean so many things I am sure happened, different survival tactics. 21:24 JK: Yeah, survival instinct, you have to kick in. 21:28 AD: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So, were you like told like tales or stories, like little kids, like little Armenian, you know, fairy tale-type of thing or heroic stories and stuff like that, or like maybe little games? 21:32 JK: Yeah, I was taught some games in Armenian but– 21:34 AD: Like your grandmother, I mean did she–like for example my mother teaches things to my daughter and it is like, you know her generation and or like little songs like do you know any little kids’ song? 22:19 JK: I do not know it by heart, but I remember there is a song about like a bird flying– 22:26 AD: Can you sing it? [laughter] 23:31 MT: How often does the Armenian community meet and get together? 22:40 JK: In Binghamton? 22:41 MT: Yeah, because I know in the past there were regular meetings in church or for holidays– is that still happening? 22:48 JK: Well right now, there is not full-time priest, so I believe they do services every few weeks or so–something because the priest we had a few years ago, he went to North of Jersey and now he works–does it there. But a few– this is like maybe five or ten years ago, not that long, probably five years ago–every year we used to have an Armenian dance in like November, now they stopped doing that but that was really fun to get the community all together we served Armenian food, Armenian dances– 23:24 AD: Oh, I wish that was still continuing. 23:27 JK: One thing I learned is the Armenian dancing. I learnt a few steps– because there is different songs that go with different dances and that was really fun to learn and we do it now during weddings and things like that which is really nice, which is, but my cousin she actually takes classes in Armenian dancing in Montreal. 23:47 AD: Oh, in Montreal– here I am like– Go ahead. 23:55 JK: But in the past when I was younger we used to go to our Armenian church every Sunday and like, there was Sunday School, I am not sure if they still have Sunday School. I remember learning some of Armenian Alphabet through that but like I do not remember it anymore, but I learnt a lot of words– like we spoke like tried to learn the language as young kids and there would always be someone teaching it. I believe my dad’s aunt would help teach it and then another lady, as well, too, she would help. 24:33 MT: So why did not your mother or father try to teach you Armenian? 24:42 JK: After I was older there was not much of a Sunday School because people left and there was not as many kids probably like less than ten of us or something maybe five or something, but I am not sure why. I think because my dad did not write Armenian, he did not– it was kind of hard and once my grandmother she died it was hard for my mom because my grandmother really helped me and my sister– that is why my sister knows the most because she was with my grandmother the most and she would learn from her, and that is how we would learn but after that we kind of stopped but I am trying to– I really want to get back in to it. I really want to learn Armenian. And I think that would really be helpful, like learn it–like how to write and stuff like that. 25:48 AD: What are the days the Armenian community here observes like, you mentioned the dance that triggered my mind. So, what else? 25:50 JK: Actually we have our own Armenian Christmas. I believe it is January 4th or January 6th, one of those days. And we like to celebrate and go to the Church and have service and then we are very big on Easter. We have different Armenian dishes, yeah. 26:10 AD: I know from Turkey, yeah? 26:13 JK: Yeah. So we have– like we paint eggs, we play the game, I do not know if you know, we crack the eggs– 26:16 MT: Do you paint like red or different colors? 26:18 JK: Different colors, I know there is a thing where you paint red but we do not– I do not remember doing that as a kid. 26:24 MT: So, you do the American way? 26:26 JK: Yeah, I guess so. 26:28 AD: Yeah, in Turkey all of– I mean that to me, red eggs, symbolizes Easter to me. 26:35 JK: Yeah. 26:36 AD: I saw the different colors when I came here because I thought Easter eggs should be red that is the image in my head. So, Easter and is there any other? 26:50 JK: I do not think so. We have a– it is not really a holiday but we have a picnic in September for the Binghamton Community, that they have like at the end of the summer I guess. And there is food, Armenian food, and everything that served. So, that is– we used to go that when we were little as well, which was fun. 27:16 AD: You do not go anymore? 27:18 JK: No, like now I am working after work during the Sunday, so it is hard to go to it, especially as you get older. I wish I could. I want to go. So, I know there is another Armenian holiday during the first half the year. My cousin, she goes to Armenian school and she tells me about it how she gets off on those days, but I have to ask her. Oh, and then obviously the Armenian Genocide, April 24th, that is of course we remember that. 27:55 AD: Is there anything going on during that day here? Do they commemorate? 28:02 JK: Yeah, we actually have a statue, it is a little kind of like a– looks like a tomb stone, but it is a square and it says we remember the Armenian Genocide. It is right as you cross the Binghamton Bridge like near the Arena in Binghamton, and I remember for the hundredth anniversary, they do this every year, but for the hundredth one like the Mayor came and they just– we have a speaker and they pray and then they talk about what happened. I remember going to it a lot when I was younger but there is usually chairs or tents, usually somebody speaks, I remember always rains during that day, like every year I remember it always rains, I do not know. 28:50 AD: Yeah, to me when I hear is like religion is a big factor in identity of Armenian community, am I right. Am I reading this correctly? 28:58 JK: Yes, and my parents are very like strict on the– especially my mom, she prays and things like that. She loves going to church when she can. So it is a huge factor in the culture and I believe it is. 29:20 AD: Yeah, so the– we can say religion, the food, and maybe dance these are like the main ingredients for the existing Armenian identity? 29:35 JK: Also, I would say there is a lot of craftsmanship like carpets in my house there is all like Armenian carpets everywhere, crosses obviously, we have our own Armenian cross, it is not the same as like Catholics or Protestant. 29:55 AD: Yeah, Gregorian. So like when your friends came to your house, well obviously since there are not so many Armenians, I assume you did not have many Armenian friends that you hang out with, right? 29:58 JK: Yeah of course. 29:59 AD: So when they came to your house, did they say oh, this is different or I mean did you hear any comments? 30:21 JK: Not, really because being– ike from my dad’s from Binghamton is very Americanized where my mom is very Armenian so it is kind of a good mixture. So, I would say the one differences the food is really interesting. Now, my friends in college they love coming over to my house and eating like the humus, tabbouleh, cheese börek, just a lot of Armenian food they love it. As a younger– as– like I remember having birthday parties when I was young. There would always– it would always like be Americanized, not too much Armenian stuff going on, but I would always tell my friends that I was 100 percent Armenian, they would be like; you have to be a different kind, like you cannot be 100 percent of one kind, so like they really do not understand it, and it was hard for me to explain too, being so young like in elementary school or something like that, so 31:22 AD: Yeah. 31:23 JK: There is always like, what is that, they do not really know too much about it. 31:30 AD: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 31:33 JK: But nowadays I think it is easier for people to understand and like especially being older people know what Armenia is, or at least what Turkey is least and I just say it is next to Armenia, so it gives them a good idea, the culture like what is going on, which is nice. 31:54 AD: Of course. 31:55 JK: Yeah. 31:59 AD: Go ahead. 32:00 MT: What does Mount Ararat represent to you? 32:02 JK: It represents– it is our Armenian unity I think, it is our culture, it represents our strength I believe, so like that is what I think. 32:19 MT: Did you hear about the mount from you parents? 32:24 JK: Yeah, I heard it from my mom especially there is a lot of– 32:31 MT: Paintings. 32:31 JK: Yeah, paintings, I was just saying paintings and we get like Armenian magazine like, calendars that have like pictures of Mount Ararat and like churches and you can see the church in relation to the mountains. So, it is very interesting and you can read like what it represents and it is kinda nice to know, so and the story is it used to be, this is what I– this is from like from stories it used to be on the Armenian side and when the Turks came they came and took that land, so now it is on the Turkish side, so like region-wise, so it is interesting. 33:17 AD: Kurds also– 33:18 MT: I always thought that it is in Kurdistan, because it is Eastern Turkey. 33:28 AD: Now, we are– look, Turk, Armenian and Kurds we are going to cut it in pieces and claim it. 33:34 MT: The reason because we have so many things like named after Mount Ararat, like one of the strongest sport clubs, so but lately, no, I thought it is not. 33:48 JK: No, it is interesting. 33:50 AD: Well it is still land– 33:51 MT: Because there are like Kurds in Armenian, there are a lot of Kurds, so, and the first magazines in Kurdish I think issued in Yerevan long ago like in the eighteenth century so– 34:08 AD: Well different ethnic groups lived in that region. So when one group came they did not just say, ‘oh you know what I am here, get out of here’ it was not like that so what people did, they just mingled and continued to live. So that was what happened but then, you know, it goes in different directions and then the politics get in to picture– 34:39 JK: And religion– I was going to say. 34:42 AD: Yeah, religion, but religion is still a very big factor in twenty first century. 34:47 MT: Of course. 34:48 AD: I mean would you think that would still continue? It is continuing ̶ 34:52 JK: I was going to say that Armenians were the first Christian culture they learnt from that so that was how it developed– which is really interesting. Armenian first country to develop Christianity– 35:09 MT: Like the first nation? 35:10 JK: Yeah first nation ̶ 35:11 AD: First nation, yeah. 35:12 JK: It is really interesting. 35:15 AD: yeah, and then it– I am not very knowledgeable about, you know, religious history, but it just took different and then– as I said politically whoever was dominant took over so in that case you know, Catholics they were politically dominant and then they took over and then the second strong one was the Orthodox, you know, Greece and you know, Russia that area, so then in that case the Gregorian group which is Armenians they became minority in Christianity as well. So it is yeah– 36:01 JK: Interesting. 36:02 AD: Yeah, it is, it is very interesting. 36:05 JK: That is why I think Armenians play– I think religion plays a big role in Armenian culture that is how I would think. 36:12 AD: Because of that, and also coming from Istanbul, and I did a research when I was a student, about Armenian Churches along the Bosphorus, and I went so many different– I do not remember how many. And people do not even know like this like really unique architecture and there are in Ottoman architecture very important Armenian architects. Actually the most famous architect in Ottoman architectural history is Sinan, architect Sinan, and he was Armenian. Nobody says that is, but he was. And then Kirkov, Garabet Kirkov, it is like so many Armenian architects that, it is like architecturally it is just very, very important names. 37:30 JK: Yeah, also when I was asking my mother about the last names you know how it means what you do. Kachadourian, I know you are interested about what it meant, it meant like the cross, the kept the cross or something, so like based on religion; Kachadour– so that is what it really means like the cross like grabbing it and keeping it, like catch it. And then on my mom’s side, Kabakyan that is, they were like squash and pumpkin– 38:02 AD: That is right, I told you that. 38:04 JK: Yeah you did tell me that. So I found that is really interesting. 38:08 AD: Because it is Turkish, I do not know, I say Turkish maybe it is Kurdish, I do not know but kabak either like squash ̶ Actually we have one word, both squash and then pumpkin you say kabak, like zucchini squash ̶ is it in Kurdish too? 38:26 MT: Yes, one word. 38:27 AD: Yes, kabak so, and here you have like all different ̶ so I am like which one is which, and kabak maybe they were like fruit ̶ I told you that maybe they were raising kabak or something, I do not know, and also in Eastern part of Turkey I know they also make like musical instruments and things like that from pumpkin– 38:56 JK: Oh, wow. 38:56 AD: Yeah, not that I am a musician but I know like a lot of things going on and “ian” [yan] is son of. I know that. So, it is like easy to catch that. 39:06 JK: To understand who they are and stuff. 39:14 AD: yeah, yeah exactly. So, any other questions? So now you know the questions you need to ask your mother. So she is probably going to give you more details and then you go. So what are the names of your family members, I am curious, like did they keep Armenian names or did they choose Western names? JK: Well, on my dad’s side his dad, his dad’s, my grandfather’s, name Harutun, my younger brother’s Henry Harutun, my grandmother is Victoria, I am not sure if that– I do not think that translates to Armenian. But, my grandfather his brothers and sisters, their named Arslanian which is Armenian, Louise, I think there is a translation for Armenian because my grandfather’s side, they are pretty much all Armenian and they like to keep the Armenian heritage basically. Aristaks, that is another great uncle of mine. On my mom’s side, Annie is my Aunt but her– she has another name that translates to Armenian, she goes by Annie but that is not her real name. 41:03 AD: I see. 41:06 JK: Yeah, and Edouard, he is another one. Madeline, I am not sure if that translates but Varoujan, Leon, Nora I am not sure where they got Nora that is my mom’s name. 41:17 MT: Nora is Arabic. 41:20 JK: Yeah, I do not know. 41:21 AD: Like from Noor. 41:23 JK: Noor is Armenian word, its means sweet. 41:27 MT: It means light, Noor means light. 41:29 JK: Oh light. 41:31 AD: In Arabic but in Armenian, maybe. 41:33 JK: Maybe, I thought it meant sweet; I have to ask her, I am not sure. 41:38 AD: Yeah, so your mom speaks Arabic as well. 41:41 JK: Yes she speaks Turkish, Armenian, Arabic, French and English and then my aunt, they were stuck in the house in Lebanon during the war, they could not do anything, this is after– like they could not go to school and stuff so they were stuck in their house. And they could only eat like bread, they did not have meat. So my aunt she read all these books, so she knew Spanish and Italian as well so she knows seven languages which is really interesting. 42:11 AD: Wow, so when your mom speaks does she have an accent? 42:18 JK: I got used to it, she does, I can tell she does. My friends know she has an accent. Especially when she speaks English she is not the best at it, since it is one of the later languages she did learn. 42:32 AD: So she speaks like me, with an accent. 42:34 JK: Yeah. 42:35 AD: Okay, so I did not listen to the interview Marwan transcribed your interview from Montreal. But he was just trying to figure out where the interview was, so I heard very short ̶ brief like a couple of words and I was like who is this Turkish interview, she sounded Turkish to me, whoever you were talking to, who was that? 43:02 JK: That was my mom’s aunt. 43:04 AD: Like her accent, speaking English sounded like a Turkish speaker is speaking English, to me. So what does she speak? 43:14 JK: She can speak Armenian, Turkish and she speaks English but it is hard for like the big words I was saying she did not understand that why my second or third cousin was there speaking Armenian trying to translate it because sometimes she would not understand what I was trying to ask. 43:30 AD: Yeah but her English, her accent in English sounded like Turkish speaker too. 43:34 JK: Okay yeah. 43:35 AD: Okay. 43:36 JK: It is very interesting. 43:38 AD: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So but your dad has no accent what so ever? 43:44 JK: No he is from– he is a Binghamton native. 43:49 AD: So, okay before we end, I did not ask so much about your father’s side. So who is here from your father’s side of the family, in town? 44:02 JK: Everyone so ̶ 44:03 AD: But you said you are not so close to them. 44:07 JK: I am close to them but I, like, I find my mother’s side more interesting and more fun to be around. They are very– 44:17 AD: Americanized? 44:19 JK: Not actually not really, I do not think so, I think because they are– I do not have– my cousins do not live here from my dad’s side either, that it is hard really to connect with them because they are much older. I have my grandfather, Harutun, he is my dad’s dad, dad, yeah. Okay, and then he has two brothers and one sister, so one is Aristaks so he is general surgeon here, so he is still in Binghamton. Then Arslan[ian], he is very– they are–all of them have very strong Armenian culture, they go to church– 45:03 AD: So are you going to interview with all these people? 45:05 JK: Hopefully yes. Another one is Louise; that is their sister, so they all live here. 45:13 AD: So they all are well educated, I gather. 45:16 JK: Most of them yes. Especially the doctor, he went to Syracuse but they all went to Binghamton high school too, so they are from this area as well. 45:30 AD: Okay, tell your father convince them to interview with you. 45:35 JK: Yeah, I will. 45:36 AD: So, they all are like born and grew up here and, so your grandfather is still alive, your father’s father? 45:46 JK: Yes. 45:48 AD: So, how does he speak? Does he have an accent? 45:50 JK: No, because I believe because they were born here ̶ 45:53 AD: Oh, so that is like, so from your father’s side you are like third generation. 45:59 JK: Yeah. 46:00 AD: Oh, wow. 46:01 JK: I have to ask, I am not too familiar with them. 46:04 AD: If he was born here first, your father second, you third. 46:11 JK: I have to see though where they came from before that because that would be interesting. I know either on my grandmother’s side or my dad’s grandfather’s side, they came from through Cuba. 46:23 AD: Okay, now you have two tasks Jackie since we open all that up. You got to interview with your grandfather. 46:32 JK: Yeah, he actually, he has got really sick this past week which is interesting ̶ 46:39 AD: Well you got to talk to him. 46:41 JK: I know, before ̶ 46:43 AD: Please make the time. Please make the time. And talk to him because this is like a library. 46:50 JK: Exactly. 46:52 AD: It is about to burn, so you got to talk to him. Because it is very important, and so I think your first thing should be interviewing with your grandfather and then you can get all the news and it is not just important for the history of Armenian culture in Binghamton area or in the US but your family history too. So you will know all this and we are going to document it which is great! 47:29 MT: Jackie you mentioned a name Arslan, and you mentioned that your mother reads, right? That she reads Armenian? 47:36 JK: Yes. 47:37 MT: Okay does she read any, like, Armenian literature, novel or things like that? 47:42 JK: I am sure she did but in school, in Sunday school. We have Armenian Bible, she knows how to read it. 47:51 MT: How about other books? 47:54 JK: Oh, yes we have Armenian cook books, the magazines are Armenian, yeah. 47:59 MT: The reason I mentioned that because there is a novel it is written in poetry, it is like poem. The title is Prince Arslan, I assume it should be Armenian because the name is Armenian. But I read it in English, but it is very– 48:17 JK: I will ask about it. 48:19 MT: We have it in the Kurdish collection actually, but I read it when I was young, so it is really interesting this novel, it is written in poetry and it has been translated into Kurdish in poetry. 48:31 AD: Is it in Kurdish? 48:32 MT: Oh, we have it in Kurdish but I know the culture is not Kurdish– 48:34 AD: I mean we have it in Kurdish. 48:36 MT: Yes, we have it in Kurdish. 48:38 AD: So, we need to look into that to see if there is like an Armenian copy. Let us check and see if there is. 48:47 MT: It is very famous, Prince Arslan. I never knew that it might be Armenian but I know from the names like Faruk, do you have Faruk as a name? 49:02 AD: Faruk ̶ 49:03 MT: No, it is girl’s name, Faruk Laqaa or something like that. 49:10 JK: I will have to ask, does not sound like– nobody in my family but maybe. 49:15 MT: I mean the name sounds like Armenian– Yeah you should read that. 49:20 JK: I will ask. Maybe yeah. 49:34 AD: But what I know from Istanbul is like– really in Istanbul the Armenian community, my observation this is– the older generations they keep the traditional Armenian names, but like very good friend of mine, her name is Megi. I mean how Armenian that is! You know what I mean? So it is like even my generation, we are talking about fifty year old, so like, they tend to like get more Western names than–maybe at that time they were thinking oh, such boring names but I mean some still picks, you know–People go different things. They go back to original names and then they get tired of it, they pick different names so– 50:34 JK: I am not sure, even on my mom’s side there is some Armenian names ̶ 50:39 AD: Or then they have Armenian names but they have like these nicknames, Western names. 50:46 JK: Yeah, to assimilate it. 50:48 AD: You know what I mean? So that is also ̶ 50:51 MT: I think the old generation they’ve tried to keep the surname at least. Most of them they have the surname, yeah– it is dying out within the new generation as time passes. 51:09 JK: Yeah. 51:09 AD: What is the name of that Author? Prince what? 51:13 MT: Well Prince Arslan is the name of the book. 51:18 AD: Oh, the name of the book. Okay, but anyway, we will look at it. I am interested in looking at it. So, any questions, any more questions? 51:38 MT: If she wants to add something? 51:40 AD: Yeah, do you want to add anything that we forgot, you think that it is important? 51:48 MT: There are questions but they do not apply to her because she is young– 51:51 AD: –New generation. But you certainly can ask more question to your grandfather ̶ 52:03 MT: Do you know if your family, like your mother or father they were in like politics? Because there has been some politics going on in Binghamton community. 52:15 JK: My father, my dad he is very much into politics, because he works– 52:20 MT: There are like two different parties in Armenia. 52:23 AD: In Armenia, Armenian politics. 52:26 JK: My parents probably know more about it. My dad loves looking at what is going on in Armenia. There has always been a divide, even the language which is spoken; I know there is like a West side and the Eastern side. There is different words that they use, but it is like Armenian, they speak Armenian but they have different slang words and things like that and how it is spoken which is really interesting, so but they would know more– 52:55 MT: I think that Armenian diaspora; they speak Western Armenian or maybe Eastern? 53:01 JK: It depends on where you from I think– 53:03 MT: Yeah but the dialect that they speak here is not spoken anymore in Armenia, so the official language I think is Eastern Armenian and the Diaspora people they speak Western Armenian– 53:15 AD: Eastern Armenians are people from the former Soviet Union? 53:20 MT: Yeah. 53:21 AD: Yeah, so the Western Armenian it is like people left Ottoman Empire, or Turkey. So I think that makes– and to me it makes a lot of sense because one influenced by the Russian, the other one influenced by Turkish. So it happens a lot. 53:44 MT: Yeah, when people here go back to Armenia they have a hard time to understand the Eastern Armenian. 53:52 AD: It is a different dialect probably. 54:00 JK: Yeah. Even my mom’s side and my dad’s side, when my mom is talking to my grandfather and my grandmother they use different words for like çörek they call it with different word on my grandparent’s side which is interesting. 54:13 AD: Çörek? 54:14 JK: Yeah. 54:15 AD: I told you çörek. 54:16 JK: I love çörek. 54:17 MT: But you did not bring it. 54:19 AD: We will go visit your mom. 54:21 MT: You were supposed to get it from Turkey, from Istanbul–the original. 54:25 JK: That is my favorite. Wow, do you helva, have you heard of it? 54:32 MT: Do you pronounce– or maybe it has come from the Turkish– We say halwa, it is like you change the ‘WA’ sound to ‘V.’ 54:44 JK: Yeah, helva. 54:45 AD: I think that is like– let us put it that way, like Anatolian, let usnot just say just Turkish. So it is like that is the region. Regional affect I think. And I see that a lot with Kurdish culture too. Regional affect, so you have more Arabic influence and Kurds from Turkey have more Anatolian because that is the land, I mean that is the seasoning they use, you know, like all these ingredients, it is regional effect on people than ethnic. I mean it is similar but you see that I certainly like when I was processing the Kurdish collection, I could tell which piece of artifact came from Iraqi region or Iranian region or Turkish you know Anatolian region. I could easily tell because it is there, and there is nothing wrong with that because it is the region you know, same thing in this country. Cannot you tell the difference between Southern and Northern? 56:06 JK: Yeah. 56:06 AD: It affects. There is– you know, it certainly affects. You can tell the difference, so I think the words, the food everything. I mean Armenian food is–I read an article actually, somebody– because I am into food, I love food. So somebody, I wish I saved that article, did a research to see the difference between Armenian food that you can eat in Istanbul than in Yerevan. Like there is a difference. 56:52 JK: Wow. 56:53 AD: Yeah, I mean– when I read it I said wow, that is exactly supports my argument. I mean it is just as delicious but it is different. 57:06 JK: Different influences, yeah of course. It is interesting. 57:07 AD: When Armenians do this and that and then Armenians over there are cooking totally different– 57:17 JK: It is finally something totally different from us. 57:19 AD: Exactly. 57:20 JK: Because it is so Westernized. 57:23 AD: Yeah, there is this, okay, God I cannot think of– I, I did not get enough sleep– there is this appetizer, which is very, very famous in Armenia. So Armenian culture introduced to– especially for Istanbul cuisine. I do not want to say the whole Turkey, but in Istanbul because there is a great effect there. So you basically make a paste from chick peas– I am asking if you ever–s o and then you make this inside like with onion, and then you kind of topik, have you ever heard of that ̶ 58:10 JK: No, but it sounds like you are making humus. 58:14 AD: But it is not– I need to find the picture, and like that is like when you say what is the biggest influence– and especially like– 58:29 JK: And you know what, it is interesting as well, my friend from Binghamton University he was looking up Armenian food because he is really interested in food and he loves Armenian food, and he thought that there is a type of donut, but it is actually Russian. 58:47 AD: [laughs], so I am just proving with the– look at that! So– 58:54 JK: I have never seen that. I know this. 58:56 AD: That is lentil balls. 59:01 JK: We have that for Easter! 59:05 AD: Yeah, I think thank you Jackie for your time, thank you so much. So this is– (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jacqueline Kachadourian