161 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c0512ead04563d8be5199bf74113edef.jpg 7482c05209ea599f1d841da6590a3e12 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Anna E. Wilcox Family letters Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865--Personal narratives ; Soldiers--Correspondence. Description An account of the resource The collection consists of 45 letters on 44 sheets, 8 photographs, 4 unassociated envelopes, and ancillary materials. Most of the letters were written between October 16, 1862 and August 10, 1865. Ancillary materials include the "scope and content" note, the "finding aid", and the "transcription note". Also, the ancillary materials include photocopies from the National Archives and Records Administration of the Military Service Records and Military Pension Records for William Pike, B. Leroy Pike, and Emory Wilcox (Service Record only). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wilcox, Anna E. Pike, William S. Wilcox, Emory Pike, Benjamin Leroy Pike, John Pike, Ruth Pike, Corintha Pike, Mary J. Stover, Benjamin Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1862-1868 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <span>In copyright.</span> Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/106">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Anna E. Wilcox Family letters</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text ; image Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1860-1869 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AWP02 Title A name given to the resource Photograph of Anna Wilcox (Close-up) Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865--Portraits Wilcox, Anna E.--Portraits Description An account of the resource Portrait of Anna Wilcox mounted on card. Original format: 1 photograph 8 x 10 cm, mounted on card, 7 x 11 cm. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anonymous Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Approximately 1868 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/special-collections/servicesandpolicies/docs/duplicationpolicy.pdf Relation A related resource Anna E. Wilcox Civil War Collection Binghamton University Libraries’ Civil War Collections Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 1 digital resource (1 image) image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1860-1869 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/78d60edf75de559096d6d5ff059bb52a.jpg dc277b2202eb32181b08a35b148c133a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Anna E. Wilcox Family letters Subject The topic of the resource United States--History--Civil War, 1861-1865--Personal narratives ; Soldiers--Correspondence. Description An account of the resource The collection consists of 45 letters on 44 sheets, 8 photographs, 4 unassociated envelopes, and ancillary materials. Most of the letters were written between October 16, 1862 and August 10, 1865. Ancillary materials include the "scope and content" note, the "finding aid", and the "transcription note". Also, the ancillary materials include photocopies from the National Archives and Records Administration of the Military Service Records and Military Pension Records for William Pike, B. Leroy Pike, and Emory Wilcox (Service Record only). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wilcox, Anna E. Pike, William S. Wilcox, Emory Pike, Benjamin Leroy Pike, John Pike, Ruth Pike, Corintha Pike, Mary J. Stover, Benjamin Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1862-1868 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <span>In copyright.</span> Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/106">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Anna E. Wilcox Family letters</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Text ; image Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1860-1869 Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context AWP08 Title A name given to the resource Group photograph of Anna Wilcox, John Pike, Mrs. J. [Emma Rose] Pike, and Mrs. W. S. [Sarah E.] Pike Subject The topic of the resource Wilcox, Anna E.--Portraits Pike, John--Portraits, Smyrna (N.Y.) -- Biography Chenango County (N.Y.) -- Biography Description An account of the resource One group photograph of Anna Wilcox and John Pike seated in the foreground with Mrs. J. Pike and Mrs. W. S. Pike standing behind. Original format: 1 photograph, 7 x 9cm, developed on metal plate. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Anonymous Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource Approximately 1868 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/special-collections/servicesandpolicies/docs/duplicationpolicy.pdf Relation A related resource Anna E. Wilcox Civil War Collection Binghamton University Libraries’ Civil War Collections Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource 1 digital resource (1 image) image/jpg Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1860-1869 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8b2b6ed5d15df9420466a28256f0c24e.jpg 461cb2952f6315f907e2496a62c76c18 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7c8bdfcaa9275461d3eb904db42acf57.mp3 26e85e30cf298954bb4f2702635d2bcc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Raul Torres Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Drug scene; Vietnam; Students; Pro-Education; Conscientious Objector; Vietnam Draft; Vietnam War; WWII; Social Conscientiousness; Drug abuse; Boomer Mentality; Korean War; War spending; Civil Rights Movement; Parents; Boomer's; Vietnam Veterans; Veterans for Peace, Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; The Establishment; Richard Nixon&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Drug scene; Vietnam; Students; Pro-Education; Conscientious Objector; Vietnam Draft; Vietnam War; WWII; Social Conscientiousness; Drug abuse; Boomer Mentality; Korean War; War spending; Civil Rights Movement; Parents; Boomer's; Vietnam Veterans; Veterans for Peace, Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; The Establishment; Richard Nixon</span> Biographical Text Raul Torres <span>is an educator and former principal of Thomas A. Edison High School in Northeast Philadelphia from 1985-1998. During the Vietnam War, Thomas A. Edison High School had the highest casualty rate of any high school in the United States, a fact confirmed by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (non-profit that built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, The Wall, in Washington, DC.) and has been recognized by local, state and federal government officials. 64 Edison students died in the war and they are forever remembered as the "EDISON 64." Raul Torres' brother, Robert Torres-Army Sgt.. is one of the 64. Those who died and served were predominantly African-American and came from a tough neighborhood filled with gangs At the time of &nbsp;the Vietnam War, the high school was an all boys school.&nbsp; The original building is no more, but since those days, through today, the school has memorialized those students with a wall in the main lobby of the school that includes the listing of all 64 who paid the highest price with their lives.&nbsp; The first wall was built in the old school in the 1960's and continues today in a new school at another location.&nbsp; The school and Philadelphia is very proud of these former students who came from a very tough environment and chose service to their nation as stepping stone and or choice to change their lives for the better.&nbsp; The "EDISON 64" will forever hold a place of stature to those times in American known as the 1960's.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 112:22 Subject LCSH High school principals; Torres, Raul--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Date of Interview ND Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Raul Torres Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Torres, Raul ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource High school principals; Torres, Raul--Interviews Description An account of the resource Raul Torres is an educator. He is the former Principal at Edison High School in Philadelphia in the 1980s and 1990s. Raul Torres is an educator and former principal of Thomas A. Edison High School in Northeast Philadelphia from 1985-1998. During the Vietnam War, Thomas A. Edison High School had the highest casualty rate of any high school in the United States, a fact confirmed by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (non-profit that built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, The Wall, in Washington, DC.) and has been recognized by local, state and federal government officials. 64 Edison students died in the war and they are forever remembered as "EDISON 64." Raul Torres' brother, Robert Torres-Army Sgt.. is one of the 64. Those who died and served were predominantly African-American and came from a tough neighborhood filled with gangs At the time of  the Vietnam War, the high school was an all boys school.  The original building is no more, but since those days, through today, the school has memorialized those students with a wall in the main lobby of the school that includes the listing of all 64 who paid the highest price with their lives.  The first wall was built in the old school in the 1960's and continues today in a new school at another location.  The school and Philadelphia is very proud of these former students who came from a very tough environment and chose service to their nation as stepping stone and or choice to change their lives for the better.  The "EDISON 64" will forever hold a place of stature to those times in American known as the 1960's. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.4a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.4b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-01 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 112:22 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3f400c1d25d82b746b81cf07ad20d83b.jpg 5dbcc26e1e34e42395300a3733e0f57e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/da609577937f41936d7db512b2e12e70.mp3 584dbbc537c7c8ba6871440fdbf5f244 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bettina Apthker Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Bettina Apthker is a political activist, radical feminist, academic, and author. As a former member of the Communist Party USA she was active in civil rights and antiwar movements of the 1960s and 1970s, and has worked in developing feminist studies since the late 1970s. Dr. Apthker has a Ph.D. in History of Consciousness from UC Santa Cruz.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dr. Bettina Apthker is a political activist, radical feminist, academic, and author. As a former member of the Communist Party USA, she was active in civil rights and antiwar movements of the 1960s and 1970s and has worked in developing feminist studies since the late 1970s. Dr. Apthker has a Ph.D. in History of Consciousness from UC Santa Cruz.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Date of Interview ND Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Protests; UC Berkeley; Free Speech Movement; Communist Party; Civil Rights; Police; Holocaust; WWII; Black Panthers; Weathermen; Feminism; Activism; Contraceptives; Montgomery Bus Boycott; Baby boom generation; Sexism; Equal Rights Amendment; Patriarchy; Women's Suffrage; Equality; McCarthy; Government Corruption; Fear of Activism; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Summer of Love; Woodstock; 1968; Bobby Kennedy Assassination; Hippies and Yippies; Vietnam Veterans&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Protests; UC Berkeley; Free Speech Movement; Communist Party; Civil Rights; Police; Holocaust; WWII; Black Panthers; Weathermen; Feminism; Activism; Contraceptives; Montgomery Bus Boycott; Baby boom generation; Sexism; Equal Rights Amendment; Patriarchy; Women's Suffrage; Equality; McCarthy; Government Corruption; Fear of Activism; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Summer of Love; Woodstock; 1968; Bobby Kennedy Assassination; Hippies and Yippies; Vietnam Veterans</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 61:26 Subject LCSH Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Peace movements—United States--20th century; Feminists; Political activists--United States; Apthker, Bettina--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Dr. Bettina Apthker Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Kimberly F Mourao Date of interview: ND -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 SM: Testing, one, two testing. And we can take a break too if you want to. 00:07 BA: Well, actually, I have other things I have to do today so, and since Will Song was late, which you are very gracious in waiting, but- 00:15 SM: Okay, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? 00:21 BA: Huge crowds of people and protests, demonstrations. 00:25 SM: Can you kind of give a little detail, were you connected to those? 00:30 BA: Yeah. You know, the first thing that I mean, in the, just in the context of this conversation, the, we had very, a week of very dramatic rallies at UC Berkeley, in the climax of the Free Speech Movement, in which I co-lead with Savio. And, and there is this, many moments there. But when I when I think about it, you know, if you asked me what I remember, was, so you probably know this incident, but we had all been arrested, and we had been released, after we had occupied the administration building. And President of the University was Clark Kerr. And he had assembled everybody from the campus at the Greek Theater, it was December 7th. And the objective was to take back control of the university from those of us that had disrupted it, get the faculty on the stage, all the chairs of different committees and everything like that. And he gave a speech. And in his speech, he said, you know, invoke the idea of the university as a center of light and learning. But he did not, he did not concede the major point on freedom of speech, which was why we had sat in in the first place, right. So, when he was done, Mario and myself, and I think it was Art Goldberg got up. And we approached the stage. And Mario, his intention was to make an announcement that the Free Speech Movement will hold its rally on the steps of Sproul Hall, which was our traditional place, the administration building, immediately following and ask everybody to come down there, and we will give our response. And as Mario approach the podium, police officers rushed out from the back of the stage grabbed him by the throat, actually the tie’s tie. And, and, and arrested him, pulled him back away from the microphone. And of course, pandemonium broke out in the, in the theater there were 20,000 people. And Kerr was still on stage. He was in the back looking, he knows it is a mistake, he was looking to shoes, he still had his written notes in his hand, and Art, and I faced the crowd, and it was like, there was going to be a riot. And so, we took up a chant, “let him speak, let him speak,” you know, and the crowd took it up. And then moments later, Mario was released, and he was up, and they turned the microphone back on. And he stood up. And he said, he just said to everybody, “come with us to Sproul Hall where the FSM will hold its rally.” And I think he said, “Let us leave this disastrous place.” So, we all left then. And so, the image in my mind is, there were 20,000, maybe more people in Sproul Hall Plaza immediately following. And so, if you know that Plaza, which you do cause you are from the Bay Area. So, you know, it is huge, and every single space was taken, and they were kids up on the, on the roof of the Student Union Building, across the way and the, I mean, it was called the Bears the, the restaurant, there was a restaurant there too. And there were people on the roof of the restaurant and every, every imaginable thing, we had our microphones set up and we gave a rally to great cheers and so forth. So that is like a moment that I completely identify with that period of, of my life in that period of the (19)60s. 04:26 SM: Would you say that moment more than any other shaped you when you were young? Was there something you did? Well, is there, is there one event that made you who you are even before you got to Berkeley? 04:38 BA: Well, in my case, that is a hard question because I came from such a, you know, my father, my parents were communists, and I came from a radical family already. So, I was already shaped in terms of politics in a certain kind of way. But there is a particular moment that, that was very personally empowering for me. In the, in the fall of protest, and that was October. I think it was October 1. Yes, it was the night of October 1. So, this was the start of the Free Speech Movement. And we had set up tables of the civil rights organizations right in the center of Sproul Plaza. And the police had come, and they had arrested Jack Weinberg, who was sitting at the table for the Congress of Racial Equality. And they brought a police car at 12 noon. I mean, I do not know what they were thinking. And so, everybody was coming out of class. I mean, they were just thousands of people coming out of class and did not know anything, you know. And they arrested Jack, and they put him in this police car, and I was there on the plaza, you know, hundreds and hundreds of other people and somebody shouted, “sit down.” So, we all sat down around the police car. And we prevented them from moving and from arresting Jack. And that is the start of the Free Speech Movement. Well, that night, the night of October 1, what happened was we used the top of the police car as a speaker's podium. And we would take our shoes off, and we climb up onto the roof of the car. And we were shouting- 06:23 SM: There is that picture that David has on the front of the- 06:25 BA: Yeah, yeah, I think it is picture Mario. Well, that night, I got up to speak at the top of the police car. And I had never given a public speech before. It was the first time I had ever given a public, that was, ever said anything in public. And it was in, it was at night, and, and then I would have been able to see people but the TV cam- the TV crews were there, and the lights were in my eyes. So, I could, I could, I could feel the crowd, but I could not see them. So, it was pitch black, and then another light coming in your eyes. And I started to talk with, with what I hoped was considerable, you know, feeling about the issue of freedom of speech. And, and this, this moment, and I invoked the quote from Frederick Douglass. That power concedes nothing without a demand. And when I said those words, and I said, you know where they were from, the crowd roared back as approval. And as they roared back at me, as they roared back at me, I felt this tremendous sense of empowerment. Just a tremendous sense of empowerment. And it was a glorious feeling. So, it was not, I was someone that had not experienced that before. I do not mean that I felt powerful in quite that way. But I mean, I felt human. I felt heard, I had been heard. And if you know something about my personal background, and you have read into it, politics and so forth, you know that that the emotional significance for me, of actually having my voice hurt. And it was a tremendous moment. 08:14 SM: Wow, wow. What, it is interesting that the three people that I am interviewing yesterday, and today are all born 1944. So, I consider you boomers, even though the classification is (19)46. You know, it is really not clear. But when you look at the young people of that era, with the (19)60s and the (19)70s. What would you consider their strengths, some of their weaknesses? 08:46 BA: Well, I cannot, sorry, for my voice. I cannot give an overview. I cannot give an overall estimate. I just know the people that I knew and the people that I knew from the civil rights movement and the Black Panther, I knew people in the Black Panther Party and of course in the Communist Party. So, one of the points I want to make here is that the Berkeley campus itself was it was almost exclusively white. Because this is before affirmative action. If you go to the Berkeley campus, now it is transformed. But there was a total of 100 black students on the Berkeley campus in 1964. Out of 27,500 students. That is something like the statistic, but I knew a lot of African American folks and, and other people from other races because of my political background, because of the political work that I did. So, I just wanted to make that as an observation. And I would say that the people that I knew in my generation, younger and older, some were a little older than me very idealistic, very much informed by World War II and the Holocaust, it is very, very fresh in our minds. In fact, in one of his speeches, Mario actually invoked the Holocaust, in which he talked about the pictures that he saw as a child, and that he cannot understand that the world has not changed as a result of what happens. I think for a lot of us who are Jewish, like myself, the Holocaust, the experience of fascism, the experience of World War II, was very fresh. And, and, and compelled opposition to racism, and, of course, anti-Semitism. But in this country, racism was very, very prevalent, and a tremendous commitment to never allowing that kind of violence to happen again. And they were very strong. If you actually look at those statistics, you will see that a very disproportionate number of the white people that went south in the (19)60s were Jewish. And I think that it comes out of this feeling. So we were, we were white, but we had this, you know, in this country, a Jew can be a white, but a Jew could also be a person of color, depending upon their skin color. Right, there is Jews who are very dark complected, you know, but I am talking about, you know, Jews who were Ashkenazi who were white like myself, but we were not quite white. A little complicated. And you had that awareness. And so, I found my generation to be very, very idealistic. And if there was a weakness, and I think there was a weakness, and it came out of this idealism, that was also a, among some people, tremendous frustration, at the lack of responsiveness of the power structure, which led I think, people to commit very unfortunate acts in the late (19)60s and (19)70s, part of the Weather Underground and Weathermen, and yeah, I did not agree with that. I have never agreed with those forms of violence, you know. So, I do not think that they were they were a relatively small number of people, overall, in terms of who was involved in, and I put the Black Panther Party in a different category, because in terms of the use of self-defense, you know, because although there has been a lot of publicity about the Black Panthers, having guns and all of that, and they did defend themselves with the police. They were constantly, young black people in that period, were constantly under attack, constantly being arrested, harassed shot, as they still are, I mean, it is still going on. So, they were not engaged blowing up buildings or something like that, which is what the Weatherman did. They were, they were very much engaged in trying to defend and protect their communities. I think that was why the Panthers had such a tremendous draw. So, they also had enormous idealism. I see the idealism that too, it just took a different slightly different form. And you think about the in the Panthers, you know, they, especially the women, like Erica Huggins, and, and Kathleen Cleaver and Elaine Brown, they, they ran breakfast for children, they ran freedom schools, they ran health clinics, they provided people with free clothing. In other words, they really tried to do very concrete, compassionate actions in their home communities. It did not get a lot of publicity. You know, if you think about Panthers, everybody thinks guns, you know, they do not think about all this tremendous daily work that- 14:11 SM: Kathleen, I actually been communicating with her down at Emory. She is working on a book right now. I think she is working on a biography. And she has agreed to be interviewed by me, but not until May. Because she has gotten to concentrate on getting the book done. One of the things, one of the criticisms of the, this era, the, the idealistic young people from the (19)60s and (19)70s, is that they have not followed through as they have gotten older. Now, I know you can only give the experiences of your friends, but have you been disappointed in some of your friends that what you saw at Berkeley, one of the things I like about David, David Lance Goines, is he was so committed he did not even go back to Berkeley. And he had not changed one iota. You know, he is an artist, and he is proud of his artwork and everything, but he has not changed, he is still the same guy he was then. Are you pleased with your peers, or are you somewhat disappointed in them? And the second part of the question is this. One of the things that really gets me is when the Newt Gingrich’s of the world or the George Will’s of the world, whenever they get a chance, will take shots at the (19)60s and (19)70s as the reason why we have problems in our society today, with the increasing divorce rate, the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority, the victim culture, you know, all the bad things happened then, and that is why we have problems today and we are going to try to fix them. So that is kind of a two-part question. 15:38 BA: Well, the first part, no, I am not at all disappointed in my generation. One of the things that you do not understand when you are young is that you have a life to live, a full life. So, David, for example, goes on to become a great artist. He is a tremendous graphic artist. Jack Weinberg, was the other example. Which is now one of the key leaders of Greenpeace. Very important. Jackie Goldberg, was one of the leaders of the Free Speech Movement, taught school for a long time in Los Angeles, then ran for the school board and ran for the LA City Council then joined the California State Legislature. She did tremendous work, built tremendous coalition of gay, lesbians, blacks. Chicanos, you know, Latino community, made a real coalition and was a very radical progressive person in Sacramento for twenty years. She recently retired. You know, if you look at Mario, even Mario himself, he was very, he was the same guy in terms of his activism, up until the time of his death, which was in (19)96. He was involved in the struggles to protect immigrants, you know, to reform immigration law. He did remedial mathematics teaching at Sonoma State College, in order to help mostly working-class kids of various races to be able to succeed in the university. I continued to be very critical of university hierarchy. And, you know, the politics that existed there, he was also a brilliant physicist. So, you know and say myself, I have taught for thirty years at UC Santa Cruz, I taught a very popular introduction to feminism class that had an annual enrollment of five hundred. And it was a course that my students filmed. So, it is available on DVDs now, but, but my point in talking about it is that it was it was to infuse students with a sense of empowerment, especially women, because I am part of the feminist movement, and activism, and what it means and now I am teaching a class called socialism, I am, excuse me, not socialism, called feminism and social justice. So, but I just started, you know, a new class. And so that is in myself, you know, and everybody. Margot Adler, who was part of the Free Speech Movement, is the, is a leading journalist for NPR. She is the head of the NPR in New York, she published a book many years ago called Drawing Down the Moon, which is a study of Wicca. And in the United States, you know, the resurgence of, of Wicca and the spirituality in that book is still in print. It is like, you know, one of the major texts, very progressive, very important journalists, NPR, as we all know, is plays a critical role. So, when I think of, or Angela Davis, if we want another person, you know, Angela has been out there in the trenches for thirty, thirty-five, forty years. She almost single handedly launched a national, international movement against the prison system. And the way it was set up and was finishing a book on that subject. She taught in the history of consciousness program at UC Santa Cruz, where I am for quite a number of years training graduate students to engage in radical intellectual work. She is, she is one of the she is one of the few recognized public intellectuals in the United States and internationally, you know, as public intellectual. So, I mean, these are examples, we could go on, but these are examples of people- 19:59 SM: So, what the George Will’s, and I do not single them out. But it is very obvious that when you see their writings, they love to take shots at the era. And that the permissiveness, the all the things that I had just mentioned, the drug culture- 20:17 BA: You know, that is also a very stereotypical view of that period. Because what, what the mass media did in a certain kind of way is focus on the drug culture, you know, the so-called permissiveness and free love and all of that. But, you know, try to give a little historical perspective, okay. The changes in sexual behavior had to do with the invention of the pill, which made it possible for women to engage in in sex, premarital sex. Without the continual fear of pregnancy. It is revolutionary, it was revolutionary. Did people get pregnant when they did not intend to? Yes, of course. And then the other thing that happens is the legalization of abortion in 1973. I know we are still fighting about it. But it made it possible for people to engage in sexual union without, you know, guys have been doing it. You know, it is, from a feminist point of view it is very interesting, you understand? Guys have been doing this forever. Guys. I am on tape. So, guys fool around, like, there is no tomorrow, you know, especially young guys. And I mean in, everywhere in the world, as far as I know. And there are no consequences, right? Because they do not get pregnant. So, they can just, you know, have a good time. feel like it is great. And all this sort of stuff they want to, but then, and then you look at, you want to talk about promiscuity, guys are promiscuous. But when women became promiscuous, then we have a promiscuous generation. Why is that? Because there is a double standard. And guys like Wills and these other, you know, these other commentators. That is it. That is really what you are talking about? What happens to the women, that is what they are talking about? They never say that because women are always invisible. But that is really what that movement is about. 22:30 SM: How have you or even Angela, could you know, or how have you been able to deal with the critics like David Horowitz and, and others who label certain individuals, obviously, the experiences you had when you were young, you kept your idealism, your sense of empowerment and your belief system, you kept it, whereas others have given in maybe, and accepted the status quo again. How have you been able to handle the critics like that, you know, and I know David, David used to be in the ramparts I interviewed him for the book too. And he is a real good speaker, he is a real good guy, he changed and everything, but he is really out there. He has got that book on the one-hundred professors- 23:13 BA: I am in it. 23:13 SM: Yeah. And Larry Davidson's on his list from West Chester University, but not in that book, but he has got Larry on his list, along with Bill Hewitt from West Chester, but how do you? How did you and Angela, how do you handle that? 23:28 BA: Well, I cannot speak for Angela, so I am not going to do that. I do not pay much attention to it. That is just nonsense. It is just nonsense. So, I just, you know, I mean, if you look at Horowitz’s book, for example, everything, almost everything he says about me, is, is untrue. It is, I am not saying I do not know whether he lies, whether, whether this is deliberate lies, or whether there is just an incompetence of research. I really do not know. But virtually every so-called facts in the paragraphs about me were wrong. I mean, even basic, innocuous information was wrong. I do not have it here, you know, it is in my office there, I can go, I mean, so I do not pay much attention to it. He was on Fox News not very long ago, and he was attacking me on Fox News. And I came into class the next day, and I told my students, you know, and I get a cheering ovation. I mean, they think it is funny. It is nothing. And most of this is nonsense. And the other thing I would say about it, and whenever I have come under attack, I do not give it much energy. It is, you do not put, do not put energy into it. This is like sort of advice to no energy because that just fuels it. So, he can have whatever viewpoint he wants to have. He has freedom of speech; he can publish whatever he wants. That is his business. I know- 24:56 SM: I know he had a very big problem with the Black Panthers because one of his associates came on our campus. One of the things I want to ask you, when did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, your view? And when did it end? 25:10 BA: Well, I think the (19)60s in terms of the civil rights movement, myself, and I think it began in the mid (19)50s. With you know, this is always, I am a historian. So, when did something begin? Well- 25:31 SM: I am a history major, political science double major. 25:35 BA: Because then this led to this, and then that led to this, you know, I am saying, but I usually think about it from the point of view of the Montgomery Bus Boycott, in (19)50, you know, the winter of (19)55, (19)56, there is stuff before then. But I usually, I mean, you could go back to the integration schools, you know, Arkansas, Little Rock, you know, you could, maybe, maybe there, but I usually think I will tell you why with the Montgomery Bus Boycott, because that was the first definable visible mass action, mass, you know, hundreds, thousands of people involved. And, and I do want to say that the women, the black women in in Birmingham and Montgomery were the backbone of that movement, because they, they provided the carpools that that arranged for people to get to doctor's appointments and get to work and, you know, provided food, and I mean, they, they were just it was the committee of one hundred. Committee of one-hundred black women. But anyway, I date it from them. Then the first march for integration on Washington was in (19)57. I was on it. There was a second one in (19)58. I was on that, too. And these were, you know, I do not know if there were thousands of people, but there were hundreds of people, we took buses, we camped out- 27:07 SM: Dr. King was in (19)57. 27:09 BA: Yes he was. Yeah. And, and then of course, by (19)60, you have the lunch counters, (19)60, (19)60, (19)61, the Freedom Rides, and then you are off, you know, and then the voter registration is (19)63, (19)64. And I think this is another thing in terms of how people view the (19)60s in the, in the sort of media type view of the (19)60s is they see it as white. But see, the backbone of the (19)60s was black. 27:50 SM: You raise a good point, because the fact that I have met with the individual, three or four interviews ago, said when I when I saw that you were doing something on the boomer generation, I think of boomers as white. And I do not, and then I tried to explain to him that I am trying to get boomers from all ethnic backgrounds, sexual orientations, you name it, and then I understand what you are trying to do now. But when I first see that term, Boomer, I think white and white male. 28:19 BA: Yeah, absolutely. Because that is the dominant media image, you know, that is absolutely right. You know, so that is why I say what I am, you know, what I am saying is, the (19)60s is, is a fundamentally in many ways, a black era. 28:36 SM: When did it end? Was there a was there a watershed moment when you date it. You know a lot of these young people moving on in jobs and careers, and they are still doing great things as leaders of different organizations. But was there something where you thought “it is over”? 28:54 BA: Well, you can mark it from different moments. I mean in the context; I would use is the fierceness of the repression. See, by the time Reagan comes in, as governor, Nixon comes in as President, Hoover, of course COINTELPRO, the mobilization of federal and state authority to crush this movement. It takes it a while to mobilize because it took them by surprise, but the effort to crush them when you think about what COINTELPRO did, you know and the numbers of young black people who were murdered, like Fred Hampton, for example, and Mark Clark in Chicago, I mean it is, or, or Bunchy Carter and John, John Huggins in Los Angeles. And that is just the tip of the iceberg. The deliberate murder, assassinated, they were assassinated. This is horrific. So, the movement took one blow after another. People were arrested. You know, think about Mumia still in jail. You know, Mumia Abu Jamal. It took one blow after another. And then there was a there was an anti-war protest that was inadequate. It was in Washington, DC and an SDS had organized it- 30:34 SM: (19)69. David Hawk, I interviewed him yesterday. 30:37 BA: Yeah, no, there was mass arrests. At that protest, the way I remember it, they released everybody afterwards. But they rounded everybody up, they rounded up thousands of people. And then they, then they did not know what to do with them. And I do not know where they put them, and then they let them go. Because they could not process that many people or do anything about it. Kent State 1970, Jackson State, same time. So, the movement is still I think, you know, there is still momentum, there is still momentum. And then I would mark the end of the movement with Angela Davis's freedom. We won her freedom in (19)72. And then I think the momentum after that is much diminished. Even though even though you have to say, the mobilizations against the war in Vietnam continued until (19)73, When the war ended. 31:36 SM: That is when Vietnam Veterans against the war come and took it over. 31:39 BA: Yeah. So, right. Nixon ends the war in (19)73. So, we are still out there. I was still part of the mobilization committees and things like that. So (19)72, (19)73, Angela’s acquitted on June 4, 1972. You know, and the war ends in (19)73. Right? Remember it is December or something? (19)75. 32:00 SM: (19)75 is when helicopter on the roof on April 30th. The very end. Well, it is interesting. I- 32:09 BA: So that is about when I end the era. 32:11 SM: I know, I know, the whole thing. When I was in my first job with George Jackson, the books and everything. And while I was in California, I actually did a concert in San Quentin Prison, and we broke a janitor by the San Francisco child's fancy, because I know the Bread and Roses group, Joan Baez’s sister had been able to do concert there. But they were really limiting the concerts. And so, I tried. And then finally, within a year, I was able to get in there with the jazz group, and it was one heck of an experience. Machine guns, the loved them, they loved the janitor, there is a rock group that came, and they booed them and threw apples at them and within five minutes, but that whole scene out there, I do remember, I want to, I got two parts here, one of the one of the general questions or one or more specific, and that is the second side. But I want to ask you about the boomer women. That is your age group. And that group that through 1964. Your thoughts on boomer women, all colors, sexual orientation, you name it, because one of the things that I found through studying history is the sexism that took place within the movements, within the anti-war movement, within the civil rights movement. And then I am, now I am even asking more about and now I, when David mixtures says “oh yeah it has been in the gay and lesbian movement. Oh, yeah.” And the Native American movement, the Chicano movement, and there was some of that because I have already spoken to a couple people of Chicano movement the same way. What is it about all these great, these very important movements that evolved in the early or late (19)60s, early (19)70s? And they use the example of civil rights movement. And women were in secondary roles. We all know, the women's movement kind of evolved from there, but is there truth to that. And in your views, what do you think about all these movements? 34:09 BA: Well, men were tremendously sexist. Just tremendously sexist. And they had no clue they were completely clueless. But in fairness, which I have to say, is some of the women you know, consciousness evolved slowly. And in particular conditions and circumstances. So, one of the things you have to acknowledge or you have to say is that Betty Friedan’s book was published in (19)59. I think it was the Feminine Mystique. When Kennedy ran for office, President Kennedy, he wanted Eleanor Roosevelt's endorsement and she said, I will give you your, my endorsement if you promise to establish a Commission on the Status of Women when you become president and investigate the institutional discrimination against women. So, President Kennedy said: Yes, I will do that, she endorsed him. She was the titular head of that commission when he came into office. And it was actually headed by Esther Peterson, who, as you probably know, was in FDR’s cabinet. And Peterson did a thorough study of institutional discrimination against women in housing, employment, education, everything. So, there was a tremendous report came out in (19)62. So, I remember those things. I did not read the Feminine Mystique until later. But I remember Mrs. Roosevelt, and I remember the, you know, the Peterson report, the commission report, I remember all of that. And I remember thinking about it. Because so I, here is what I am trying to say is the men ridiculed any kind of feminists or women centered movement, these are radical progressive men. I remember conferences of SDS, they were awful, they ridiculed, they booed, they hiss, they did not want to hear anything about it, they made jokes about it, and so forth. This was true in the Communist Party, also, except in the Communist Party, there had always been an understanding of the inequality of women in the workplace, equal pay for equal work and that sort of thing. So, there was a, there was a tradition in the communist movement of understanding, discrimination against women. But they saw it as a function of class, class struggle, not as something that had an independent existence. nobody talked about violence against women. We had all experienced it, but nobody talked about it, because it was to the woman's shame. Now. So, I think all these things are true. And if you look at the histories that have been written about the (19)60s by men, and you talked about it, Todd Catlin, and stuff like that. If the women's movement enters those histories at all, it is as a minor point. And they hardly talk about any of the women who were leaders of the movements. It is amazing. It is amazing to me, somebody just published a book on the left, I just got it on my email. And I do not know the name of the book, it must be the History of the Left in the (19)60s and (19)70s and does not mention any of the women's radical organizing that was going on. This is hundreds of pages, and there is no mention of it. 38:09 SM: Even when the Vietnam Memorial was built, Diane Carlson Evans had to fight to get the Women's Memorial. And a lot of people they do not know the battles behind the scenes, where she was called every name in the book, but she will not be, and she was just trying to get the Women’s Memorial. 38:23 BA: Yeah so, so my point is, yes, sexism was very deep and very profound. And it infused everything in all of the movements. And it was true, regardless of racial designation. But there were differences. For example, in the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, black women held leadership positions, and lead field projects. white women in SNCC did not, the white women in SNCC were, they did voter registration work, they did dangerous work like that. They did office work, and so forth. They were voter registration workers, but most of the leadership, of course, it was black in general. But, so, black women have not, it was different, it is not that there is not sexism among black men there is, but it has a different history. So, I do not want to just lump everything together. And no, that is not true. Like Ella Baker, for example, Fannie Lou Hamer as another example, they are like key leaders, about civil rights movement, often unsung. Now, now they are known, you know, but there is, there is definitely on the part of men, which is, the women are just invisible. They are just there, but they are invisible. So, and then the other thing I am trying to say is that those of us as women who were involved in these movements, slowly developed the consciousness about sexism. It is not like we had it all at once or something. But because we were involved in freedom struggles for everybody else on the planet, it occurred to us at some point that we did not have very much. And people, you know, women began to talk to each other. And the so-called consciousness raising groups formed, you know, in the late (19)60s and the (19)70s, which were very important, informal groups in which women started actually talk about their own lives. And out of that experience, a feminist theory emerged, which had to do with the idea of there was something called “patriarchy” and it had a history. And there was something called “violence against women” and most women or a very large percentage of women had experienced it. And you know, and we began to define what you know, and then we gobbled up the Second Sex, Simone de Beauvoir. You know, these other things, and everybody all of a sudden discovered, Rosa Luxemburg, and what is the other woman? I am trying to. Emma Goldman. You know, and all of a sudden, we are like, Holy smokes, you know, and then there is the suffrage. You know, the saying “you discover your history” is what happened. 41:21 SM: You know Johnnetta Cole who was president of Spelman- 41:23 BA: Yeah, I know Johnnetta quite well. 41:24 SM: She wrote a great book when she was president there. And then there, she talked. And she talked about the women that, from the (19)60s and (19)70s, about the split that took place between the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement, and that Kent State, like there was no students there of color. They were all told not to be there, there was a split happening. I know, at Ohio State when I was there, I saw the split. And so, she talks about that, too. But she also talks about Boomer women, or women as a whole who were black, who were, they wanted to identify more with racism, and not with the, the anti-war, and certainly not with gay and lesbian issues, and she did a tremendous job in that book of describing the conflicts, which I still see today at the university, that we all come together in a time of crisis like 9/11, and we were all standing there. But how many other times do we come together? You know, and because I know African American men who were gay at West Chester, who were afraid to walk across the hall to the gay and lesbian office for fear of being labeled, and it shows that there is still that happening within the community. And I always question what are the boomers gone to who are now reaching sixty-two. And then that particular age and kind of doing what they were doing in the (19)60s, helping these people along, their children and their grandchildren. Do you see that as there is still some conflicts within the boomer African American female community and in the areas of sexual orientation? 43:05 BA: Well yeah because the problem is, you see that. So my first point that I was trying to make to you was just that our own consciousness had to develop. That was where I was going with, my prior comments, now. And then every community was different, you know. So, I mean, there are two kinds of feminists, for example, who are coming out of their own experience in the struggle of Lavasa, you know, on the west coast and in the southwest, so, beginning to react to the sexism that they were experiencing and beginning to talk to each other, because liberation is contagious. Now, the other part of what you are asking about is, there were tremendous contradictions in these movements. For example, white women had almost no experience with race, or racism. Black woman that was what was in their face all the time, it was not that black women were not aware of sexism, especially. I mean, they bore the brunt of violence, especially for white men. So, it was not like they were not aware of it. But they tried to figure out how they were going to unite with black men in order to confront racism. You know, it was very complicated. All I am saying is, it was a complicated struggle. So, it is not a lack of consciousness about sexism. Any more than, I mean, they are perfectly aware of the sexism. And I think, you know, if you think about Ntozake Shange’s play “For Colored Girls Who Have Considered Suicide.” That play was a groundbreaking breakthrough play, came out in (19)78. Because it named the violence against women in the black community. And it was a very controversial play and in (19)82 when Alice Walker published “The Color Purple,” a lot of black guys went nuts, attacking her and everything else, but there too she was naming, in that case its incest and, and violence against black women. So, it is not a lack of awareness. It is like, “Where is the priority?” I mean, you are one human being and how many battles can you fight? But white women will completely, almost, almost completely I mean, white women like me who are not but many white, let us put it that way, completely unaware of racism, even women who had been in the south thought “Well, the Klan is racist, but I am not.” You know, not thinking about all their assumptions, you know, it is, these are complicated questions. 45:50 SM: I can remember my first boss, Betty Mensen, after Betty Mensen. She has passed on now, but she the Equal Rights Amendment, why did I say that? I think actually we were, we were halfway through. 46:12 BA: Well, the equal rights amendment was introduced in 1923. Then it gets blocked and blocked and blocked and blocked, it is exactly the same history is suffrage. And another thing that needs to be said, I just want to, I am trying to make a point here, but say that the women's suffrage Okay, we get it in 1920, it was introduced first in about what 1868? Forty- or fifty-year struggle for almost forty years, I think. 46:57 SM: Patriarchy is deep. And men do not want to give up their power and, and privilege. Then say that the suffrage movement, it got intertwined with Southern white Dixiecrats not wanting to extend suffrage at all because they wanted to take it away from black men. So, the major opposition to suffrage, to this to the women's suffrage. The major opposition was from Southern racists, white racists, were trying to prevent it from being passed. So, you needed two thirds of the states, right? Or was it three fourths? Is it two thirds of the state, two thirds, whatever it is to pass it right? So, the last state to endorse women's suffrage and only men are voting, right? So, it is only men in the state legislatures. The last state to pass it is Tennessee. Okay. And it wins by one vote. And who was the guy, this guy named Huberts. I happen to know his history, the guy named Huberts voted for it. And when he was asked by a historian named Eleanor Flexner, “why did you vote for women's suffrage?” He said, “because if I had not, my mother would have killed me.” Now, so the way that women organized the suffrage campaign was, they went to speak to the wives, mothers, daughters of every man in the state legislatures, and then organize the women to pressure the men. That was how they won that campaign. Now, you say the Equal Rights Amendment, right? So that was introduced in (19)23, that was supposed to be a simple constitutional amendment. And it is logjammed at every possible point, it is about patriarchal privilege. That is how I see it. It is about not wanting, not truly wanting equality, because equality is a very deep concept. What would equality mean in a marriage? I mean, if you look at what does equality mean, in a marriage? What does equality mean in the workplace? What does equality mean in education? It is not just you know, if we really believe in equality, then women should have as much to say, as men about everything, the arrangement of human affairs. That is my definition of feminism. Women should have as much to say about everything in the arrangement human affairs, well, that is not true, is it? Who does who is the- who are the architects to design the buildings, who designs the cities, who, who decides allocations if there is going to be allocations for childcare, healthcare, for God's sake, you know, which is going on right now? You know, who is it that takes up the slack when the kids get sick? It is the, it is the women who stay home almost 90 percent, 100 percent of the time. Who takes care of the elderly? I am talking about average families that cannot afford fancy nursing homes. It is the women. Some women have a family, including their husband’s mothers. But a lot of times they cannot stand, moved in because well you cannot put them out. You cannot put them out in the hot in the you know, in the in the desert somewhere, you have to take care of them. So, you say these are very feminist issues, this healthcare things, very feminist issue. But it is always women who take up the slack. It is always women are doing these, performing social services, basically, these are all, this is all interesting. 50:55 SM: Do you think the Equal Rights Amendment will ever be passed. 50:57 BA: I do not know. 50:57 SM: Because I do not see any effort to bring it up again, 51:00 BA: No, it is kind of got dead. After the, there was a big push in (19)70s and then it kind of died, you know, and it, but the opposition to it, you know, the opposition to it is really about the, my point where I was going with this is it is the implications of what equality means. And if you have a constitutional fact like that, then a woman could sue and say, the conditions of my employment are not equal. I am not getting equal pay, then we are talking about economics then we are talking about restructuring the whole economy. No. So all this fluff about the Equal Rights Amendment, like how we got to have unisex toilets and all that, that is just fluff. That is just, that is not really what the issue is. 51:49 SM: Yeah, I see a lot of them on university campuses. 51:51 BA: What? Unisex? Yeah, I mean, you know- 51:54 SM: In the airport and everywhere. I want to read this question. Now, this is two basic issues that I want to deal with here. And one of them is the issue of healing and the other is trust. Qualities that I am not sure, I would like your opinions on, I have to read this. We took a group of students to see Senator Muskie about a year and a half before he died. And we asked this question to him, because the students thought that he was going to respond to the 1968 convention he was at. Do you feel that the boomer generation is still having problems from healing from the divisions that that tore this nation apart in their youth, divisions between black and white, male and female, gay straight, divisions between those who supported the verdict and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Kind of a preface here what did the Wall playing in this process? And do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this? Or has thirty-five to forty years made this statement “Time heals all wounds” a truth? Basically, what I am saying is, do you think that that generation of students who were at Berkeley in (19)64, the students that went through the (19)60s that at the moratorium in (19)69. And we are talking now about a generation of, I am not even sure they know the exact number of boomers I hear its seventy to seventy-eight million. So, there is, so we are talking about quite a few people here, and probably 15 percent were involved in some sort of- 53:25 BA: I was going to say the vast majority were not involved. 53:26 SM: Yeah, but still 15 percent is a lot. And actually, I am a firm believer that this, that all of them were affected, subconsciously, you could not live through this period without having some sort of a feeling and to share whatever it might be and or come to some sort of revelation later in life that this really did influence me. But your thoughts on whether this is an important thing, or it is just impossible to heal, is healing it problem here in America? Oh, yes, he- 54:00 BA: Oh yes, healing is a problem. We carry our grudges. It is an interesting question. And- 54:15 SM: Let me say that Jim Scruggs wrote the book “To Heal a Nation,” which is his book, I am sure it is probably in here some place, which was “To Heal a Nation” obviously, the Vietnam Memorial was built to help the veterans and certainly their families and the people who died in the war and so forth. It is done a pretty good job. And I have been to the Wall twice. Yeah, I go to the Memorial Day and Veterans Day, have been doing so since (19)94. There is a lot of black ideals on there. I mean, still it helps, but I know a lot of Vietnam vets, I cannot even go there. So, but on to the next statement healing a nation and the question is whether what, what is the Wall done for the nation? And maybe the boomer generation and what and then of course, it is a general question. I asked on healing overall because of all these other divisions. 55:03 BA: Well, my opinion about healing is that it is an individual process. And it has to do with the willingness of individuals. You cannot heal a nation unless individuals heal themselves. Healing begins in the heart. And it really is, it is an individual process, you can create certain conditions that facilitate healing. But and, you know, you can watch, like myself, for example, I try to be very careful about what I say, and to whom I say it and how I say it, and to have what the Buddhists call” right speech.” In other words, not to, I try not to attack, you know, and try to be very careful about anger, you know, very hard, these are hard practices. Building a wall, oh it is fine. I mean, that is not fundamentally where healing happens. In my opinion, healing happens in the individual hearts of people. And it requires intensive work. Nobody can heal you, you must heal yourself. And part of the healing process for each individual is a decision that you are making about the quality of your own life. When you carry anger, when you carry hatred when you carry wounds, you are injuring yourself. And so, the, the ability to, to heal is your own decision. I am an incest survivor, for example. And I write about it in my memoir, and I had to make a decision to forgive my father. 57:23 SM: He is a Big Nicky; I have one of a couple of his books. 57:26 BA: And I had to make that decision. Otherwise, I was going to carry the hatred. The anger, it was more anger was not so, I do not know if it was hatred, but anger, frustration, and other things that it was all part of a constellation of things, because he never saw me as I really was, as I truly was, he only saw me as an extension of himself in my opinion. So, what I said earlier about standing up on top of a police car and making that speech of being heard, that is what I meant. That was a healing moment for me to be heard. Because I was never heard as a child. I was always an extension of my parents. So, what I said had to conform with what they believed, then I could be heard, but then I was not really heard was I? Now, my father helped me to forgive him by asking me to forgive him. So, I had, I was, I was very fortunate in being able to talk to him. I was very fortunate in his response to me, for other people it does not happen that way. But the decision to forgive is your own decision. Now- 58:42 SM: Could you like for example- 58:43 BA: So, you have, so Angela Davis tells an interesting story in public. Very interesting story. When she was a little girl, she was in Birmingham, Alabama. She was one of the, she lived in a, in a home that was called Dynamite Hill. There it was called Dynamite Hill, because there were black families as they moved in the Klan would bomb their homes. So, you know, little kid, right? She was a little kid grows up with feelings about white people. So, she tells the story, I just, she just told that the other day, and remember this the bombing of the Birmingham church. Right and all that, she was, she was a child when that happened. I mean, she remembers it. She remembers bombs going off when she was a little kid, you know, like brushing your teeth in the morning, and she would hear the explosions. So, she told the story. She said the doorbell would ring and she would go to answer the door. And then the person would say, you know, is your mother home or whatever, and she would yell out: Mama, there was a white guy at the door. Or there was a white man at the door, something like that. And her mother would come in and very gently she would say, “Angela, there is a man at the door.” Angela was saying to us, you know, my mother did that. Because my mother did not want me to hate white people. She was teaching me, so, so then but I am just saying, so then that is trying to, you know, in terms of healing here, that was a very important moment that Mrs. Davis was doing for her children, not just Angela, but all of her children, because she had a different consciousness. She was a very radical woman. She was a political activist. She wanted her children to understand that not all white people were enemies. So that so that they would not internalize all that stuff and have to heal from it. See? So, yeah, that is what I am trying to get at there. 1:01:04 SM: It is very well said. Like, I know Alan Canfora at Kent State is trying to meet with some of the guard. Of course, one and finally he met with had passed away of a heart attack. So, I think one of the things is to try to, I guess it is tough for him to be in the room with them, but he is trying to come to terms and, and certainly, 1:01:23 BA: Give me another example- 1:01:24 SM: Senator Muskie said that we had not healed since- (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Bettina Apthker Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Apthker, Bettina ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Peace movements—United States--20th century; Feminists; Political activists--United States; Apthker, Bettina--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Bettina Apthker is a political activist, radical feminist, academic, and author. As a former member of the Communist Party USA she was active in civil rights and antiwar movements of the 1960's and 1970's, and has worked in developing feminist studies since the late 1970's. Dr. Apthker has a Ph.D. in History of Consciousness from UC Santa Cruz. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.17 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-06-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Daniel Bell, 1919-2011 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Daniel Bell (1919 - 2011) was an American sociologist, writer, editor, and academic, best known for his contributions to the study of post-industrialism. He received his Bachelor's degree at City College of New York and his Ph.D. at Columbia University. Bell became a professor of Sociology at Harvard University, where he remained until 1990.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Daniel Bell (1919 - 2011) was an American sociologist, writer, editor, and academic, best known for his contributions to the study of post-industrialism. He received his Bachelor's degree at City College of New York and his Ph.D. at Columbia University. Bell became a professor of Sociology at Harvard University, where he remained until 1990.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;The End of Ideology; Baby boom generation; Karl Marx; Anti-War Movement; Sociology; Non-Violent Protest; Wounded Knee Massacre; American Indian Movement; Arguing the World; The Pentagon Papers&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:2,&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">The End of Ideology; Baby boom generation; Karl Marx; Anti-War Movement; Sociology; Non-Violent Protest; Wounded Knee Massacre; American Indian Movement; Arguing the World; The Pentagon Papers</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 90:13 Subject LCSH Sociologists; Authors; Editors; College teachers; Bell, Daniel, 1919-2011--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Daniel Bell Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 12 June 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:01): All right. I will continue to look at it too, to make sure it is not... Yeah. As a former journalist, some of these I am going to read and then I am just going to prompt you to. As a former journalist and great professor at several prestigious universities, what would you say about the students of the boomer generation? Actually, the students you had in the classroom for many years, those were the students that were born, and propped, and going to college between 1964 until 1981 because the boomer generation is defined as those that were born between 1946 and (19)64. Do you feel positive about that generation as a sociologist and as a person who experienced them in the classroom? Do you feel negative qualities starting? Did they stand out in comparison to your students post boomer, those that were in college in the mid to late (19)80s and beyond? And maybe those before? Any thoughts you have on students from that generation? DB (00:01:11): I think the question is too broad. There is a range of students in every generation. And there is a difference to those who come to me as a teacher and those who simply stay away. So, it is difficult for me to talk about a generation. SM (00:01:42): How about instead of talking about the generation as a whole, how about the students that you experienced? The ones that came to you, the ones that sought your advice, counsel, or you were kind of a mentor to, and they were your mentees? Did you find them very inquisitive? Were they fairly well-read? DB (00:02:21): Excuse me. When you think about particular students rather than generation or range of students... And when I think of a particular set of students, they were all extremely bright, very inquisitive, and somebody eager to challenge me, which I like very much. There is no fun or excitement in simply teaching students when there is an attitude to them, but I like students with whom I can argue with and who can argue with me. And sometimes they argue from the left, sometimes from the right. It varies with the class. And the other thing is that I have always liked teaching with a colleague. At Columbia, I taught several seminars with Lionel Trilling on literature and society. At Harvard, I have taught several seminars with Hilary Putnam, who was a philosopher. SM (00:03:48): Yes-yes. DB (00:03:53): And in one sense, we argued well with one another, as well as with the students. So that there was not any sense that we're setting forth knowledge on high. We were interested in what sort of problems when raising. What we have always started to do is to make distinctions, which override some of the clichés. For example, when I was teaching with Hilary Putnam, we would say that some issues are constitutive and some are intrinsic. People often confuse it too. Sex, for example, is intrinsic because it is based on hormones. Whereas, gender is constructed. It is based on cultural norms and such. And when people talk about sex and gender without making those distinctions, they are confusing people. So, our effort has always been to try to cut through many of the clichés of any of the arbitrary statements, to try to really sort out the actual differences. Sometimes, for example, issues are reductive, meaning that they go from psychology, to biology, to chemistry. Sometimes they are what we call emergent. Maybe they are expanding what they tried to cover. We used to say, for example, what is the most important prefix in the English language? And the answer would be, most important prefix is re. Which you sometimes rearrange. So that you are always reorganizing what you are doing. And therefore, you are making distinctions, which allow people to sort out what is it you are trying to do. SM (00:06:09): What is interesting, just looking at your background and you talk about how important Sydney Hook was. You did not actually have him as a teacher, but he was like, you saw him and what kind of teacher he was with his students, and when he taught in college. And one of the things about the boomers, oftentimes they will say is that the teachers were available to them. We could talk to our teachers, we could talk to our professors. Our professors really encouraged us to go out and listen to people, and different points of view, and had different experience in colleges. And if we were not pushed, maybe we would not have gone and had them. So, there was a closeness. There seemed to be a closeness during the time that the boomers were in college. Closer ties with their faculty members. And again, you liked the students had challenged that. Again, you cannot talk about an entire generation. But the experiences from that period, from say (19)64 to the beginning of when Ronald Reagan became president, that was the time when boomers were in college. And there seems to be not that closeness anymore on college campuses like there was in the past. DB (00:07:27): Depends upon the school. A student from Berkeley, I would say, "Who was your teaching in college?" He said, "Oh, I do not know?" He took all elective courses. So, there would be several hundred students in a course. So, I said, "What is the point of taking such a course?" "Well, we had to." SM (00:07:49): Yes. DB (00:07:49): I think these large elective courses are nonsense because you might as well simply have a recording. And so we play it. It is where there is a possibility of being able to interact with students in seminars and such. And one thing about Sydney Hook as a teacher, as one learned, he was always willing to take opposite points of view just to be able to challenge a student. Was not necessarily his point of view per se, but seemingly he would take an opposite point of view. One of my best students, for example, always acknowledged that fact. Was a man, David Ignatius. I do not know if you know the name? SM (00:08:45): That name does ring a bell. Yes. DB (00:08:46): Well, David Ignatius is a columnist in the Washington Post. SM (00:08:49): Okay. DB (00:08:50): And he was the editor for a while in Paris of the Tribune, owned by the Times. And he would always say, "What I appreciate most about you at seminars, is you made me change my mind. Not that you want to per se, but I was interested in the problem and you began challenging me on this to define it, to organize it. Why are you interested, etc." And he says, "Finally, I changed my mind." He has written about that. He has written several columns about that. SM (00:09:27): He was a student here. He is a boomer probably too, probably during that timeframe. Again, a teacher is very important in the development of student. We always say at orientation and for years, it is very important to find that teacher or a few teachers that will be there for you, you can talk to for advice and counsel. And not only on courses you take, but certainly if any issues come up. Sydney Hook seems to be that the type of person. I remember, I have some quotes in there, I put them in the email that I sent you. I have a question on Sydney Hook toward the end of my... But that is a very interesting point of view that students need to hear the other side, and try to wonder and understand the other side. Do you see that was happening back then in colleges, that a lot of teachers wanted people to hear both sides? Some people today say that it is not the same on college campuses. DB (00:10:39): Again, I cannot generalize on that. I find any generalization rather awkward because the thing I constantly deal with students is to say, you have to make relevant distinctions. What distinctions are you making? So you know what belongs there and what belongs there. And therefore, if you know what distinctions you are making or why you are making them, then you can begin to decide what is relevant, what is not relevant. And so that... SM (00:11:24): You are the author of so many classic books, including the End of Ideology. In just a few words, and it is a broad question again, but what was the main theme of the book? It did look at the (19)50s, when boomers were in elementary school. So, when you are talking about that, the book came out in (19)61, I believe. (19)60, (19)61 and boomers were just going into junior high school at the time. So, you are basically writing about the (19)50s and the late forties. And the change that is happening in our society to the service economy. And could you in your own words, say why you wrote the book, why you felt it was important to write it, and the basic theme? DB (00:12:18): Well, I think the title sums it up. Namely, that ideologies have been fabricated or fixed, instead of usages of concepts. And therefore, the subtopic of the book, if I am not mistaken, is on the exhaustion of ideas in the 1950s. SM (00:12:40): Yes. Yep. DB (00:12:43): So that in one sense, the main target was Marxism used as an ideology. Not the law of Marxism was that, and we were wrong. But those who use Marxism as an ideology, in a sense, would be the target of the book. SM (00:13:03): It's interesting because during the 1960s, as you remember, many of the... Particularly after 1965, (19)66, (19)67 and it was very evident on Columbia's campus in (19)68 with Mark Rudd, that a lot of the students were reading that kind of book. They were reading Miles. Somebody told me people only carried Miles's book just to impress people. They had not really read it. But in terms of, I interviewed Mark Rudd, and Mark Rudd said, "Well, Marx was very important. Many members of the new left were reading that." That way of [inaudible] was very important. Revolutionaries were very important. So, the ending of what you were saying was going on the (19)50s, some of the people in the new left, student leaders of the anti-war movement, were bringing those ideas back. Any thoughts on that? DB (00:14:00): Well, in (19)68, add along and count with Mark Rudd because we have been supporting David Truman with the stipulation that they should not call on the police. Because the police would simply go in and break heads. And I was saying to Mark Rudd, what you are doing is trying to play Truman's game. It came out later, as Mark Rudd himself said, one of the issues was the question of the gymnasium on the Harlem side. And he had never been there. He did not know anything about it. He was using these things simply as tools, props. And that was the main thing I disliked about him. That you were not really arguing a problem. You were not really saying, I believe this. I believe that. But you were using them as a tool. And he was using ideology as a tool because he had a language to impress people, but he never understood what the language itself was. And I would say to him at one point, "Who's Bruno Bauer?" He said, "I do not know." I said, "But you're talking about Marx and not know Bruno Bauer? That Bruno Bauer is one of the people that Marx talks about in the Communist manifesto and one of the chief people between Feuerbach and himself. Do you know who Feuerbach was?" "No, who was it?" And so, there was a complete ignorance there of actualities of ideas. SM (00:16:02): Did you change your opinion of him at all over the years as he's... DB (00:16:07): I have no sense of what he was or what he became. The person who I thought most had been in the new left for a while was Paul Berman. SM (00:16:17): Oh, Paul Berman. Yeah. He wrote a book on Vietnam, I remember. DB (00:16:20): Yeah. He has written several books. He has written one book now recently on Islam and on in the Ideology of Islam. But Paul Berman was a young man who had got to think through, he was a good friend one time of Rudd. But after (19)68, he began moving towards the amicus because they were opposing ideas with which he was unfamiliar and he had to encounter. So I think that Paul Berman was the best person to come out of that movement. And Rudd, probably the worst. SM (00:16:55): Are there any people within that movement, because Mark was just one person, but when you think of the anti-war movement, several people come to mind that were... Tom Hayden or Rennie Davis, David Harris. Of course, Dave Dellinger, William Kunstler, the lawyer. Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin. A lot of different... In fact, Rubin was over at Berkeley for a while and Abbie Hoffman seems to be everywhere. Is there anything in any of those people that you admire? Because they are at the cap, the top of the cap, the top of the pyramid in terms of the names of that era. DB (00:17:50): Well, Hayden had been in the University of Michigan and he came to see me. And clearly in his own mind he was saying, have to choose between C. Wright Mills and Daniel Bell. And he chose C. Wright Mills. Recently, there is a book which has come out by Ki Ochs and Arthur Filleg on Gerth and Mills, which is a devastating book. Reputation and Scholarship, how Mills manipulated Gerth and tried to get credit for the work on Max Weber. But they never knew that. And I have in my book collection of essays are the, which I think one of my favorite books is the... It is a book of essays dealing with technology, and religion, and such. And there is an essay there called From Vulgar Marxism to Vulgar Sociology. And mostly about Mills. And there he was thrashing away with these large scale generalizations and you never knew... Well, how things are going right now. There is a power elite. So, there is no change in the power elite from the beginning of the republic to the end. And he said, but you're talking about power, not about politics, which is the distinctions between people and such. No, I had no respect for Rudd because he wanted to go out and swing at people and have them swing at him. Because he thought, "I am going to be a tough guy and we will get into a fight." Well, you want to get into a fight, get into a fight. But that is not a way of making distinctions or understanding issues. SM (00:19:50): I sense that when you are saying these things and you make very relevant points, and that is knowledge is power. And we say this to students all the time, that if you are going to understand your opponent, you need to read about what the opponent stands for. Do not just attack them based on emotion, but have knowledge with power. Do you think that when you look at the movements that came about after the anti-war movement... The civil rights movement was already taking place, obviously, and it was a role model for the other movements that followed. But the anti-war movement itself... Point I was trying to make here. I am trying to get it right. I lost my train of thought here. The anti-war. Yeah. What were your thoughts on the anti-war movement itself and the people that participated in it? Do you think they were genuine? I know you cannot, again, because you cannot generalize, but when you look at the anti-war movement, you see different segments. You see the religious segment, which was the Catholic. Daniel and Philip Berrigan, the anti-nuclear group. Then you had the students. And then you had people like Benjamin Spock, the doctor. And you had these people coming from all different angles and all different walks of life, and violence was something they all opposed until the Weatherman, the Black Panthers, groups like that came around. Did you admire at least some segments of the anti-war movement, these other movements before they were- DB (00:21:41): I admired most of them because I thought it was genuine. I started out in some sense supporting the government and then turning against it. A group of us wrote a long letter to Lyndon Johnson, as we had contact with a lawyer who worked for Johnson. And he encouraged us the write to Johnson, and he would get Johnson to write a reply, which he did. But we were saying that it is the wrong war, so to speak. Sorry, I am being carried out in the wrong way quite often. So that the man, for example, who had been the senator and now became the head of the new school, had- SM (00:22:39): Kerry. Yeah. DB (00:22:43): ... Sent me to kill people. I knew a bit about the Vietnam War, in a personal sense. My son-in-law was in a Coast Guard in Ensign, and he was patrolling the boats. He was patrolling the rivers. And he would write letters to me or he would come home and talk. DB (00:23:03): ... and he would write letters to me or he would come home and talk. He would say, "We are doing it all wrong." So, I had great respect for many of the people there because their feelings were quite sincere. But no respect for people like Mark Rudd who are manipulative, who are using this as a manipulative issue. There is a man who is been a very good friend of mine, Max Lerner, and he wrote a book with a dreadful title called Ideas Are Weapons. Well, ideas are not weapons, ideas are ideas and you debate ideas. But to say, "Ideas are weapons," is to denigrate ideas and to devalue them. I told Max... he is a wonderful writer, very good columnist for New York Post- SM (00:24:01): Is he? DB (00:24:02): ... taught at Brandeis. I said, "Ideas are not weapons. It is the wrong way to think about it. If they are weapons, you should be using it to smash people, rather than to debate with people." But he thought, and maybe he was right in one sense, if you have a good title, you keep it. SM (00:24:29): That is what book publishers like sometimes titles that would get you to sell your book. Obviously, going beyond Mark Rudd, there was certainly Bernadine Dohrn, another person from the Weathermen, and Bill Ayers who was in the news a lot because he was in front of Bill Clinton. Just your thoughts, when you think about... and even as a historian or as a sociologist teaching classes, my golly, you look at the Civil Rights Movement, you look at the anti-war movement, you look at non-violent protests, you look at the Gandhi philosophy of non-violence. Then all of a sudden in the late (19)60s, because the anti-war movement is getting frustrated, you see a segment trying to turn to violence through the Weathermen. There is always the question, people do not understand whether the Black Panthers were violent or not. But there is the scene of Stokely Carmichael challenging Dr. King, basically telling him, "Your time has passed. Non-violent protest does not work." We had the experience of the students at Cornell walking around with guns, although I do not think they had any intention of using them, they just wanted to use them as a symbol. Then in the American Indian movement, you had Wounded Knee where you went from Attica in 1969 to Wounded Knee in 1973, which was about violence. Seems like violence never wins, does it? As a sociologist, I think you have even said some things about violence is just totally bad. I mean, it only brings enemies rather than supporters. DB (00:26:09): Nonviolence can work only in a society which respects people's ideas. Obviously, nonviolence cannot work in Nazi Germany. They can just go in and smash you. But nonviolence works when people respect ideas and say, "Well, if you're willing to take the stand and be nonviolent, well, then I will respect that." I think that in this country, nonviolent worked. Nazi Germany, it would not. In the Soviet Union, it would not. SM (00:26:50): They would be dead if they did that. DB (00:27:10): The thing which I just dislike most the is that the New Left was taking to the university as the focus of their attacks. Any great university and for a while, Columbia was a great university, respects different points of view. And you cannot destroy a university. But someone like Mark Rudd was ready to destroy the university. Not everyone in that Weatherman group, some of have been students of mine and I knew them very well. They would say to me later on, "You know, you made as read a book, which really shook us up and we would argue about it." I would say, "Yes, I know." This was Dostoyevsky's book, The Demons. Had different titles, but the real title was The Possessed. Well, then The Demons, because it is about his group, followers of Akunin, who created violence. I do not know if you know the book? SM (00:28:29): No, I do not. I- DB (00:28:32): Well, it is one of the great books of its kind. New translation, it is called The Demons. It's one of Dostoyevsky's great books along with Crime and Punishment and Brothers Karamazov. Because it is about a revolutionary group and what happens in the revolutionary group. And they identify very strongly with this and it shook them up. SM (00:29:06): You talk about Marco, what did you think of Mario Savio and Bettina Aptheker, and I think Goldberg led that group that were the student leaders of... Ian Rossman... the student leaders of the student protest movement at Berkeley, the Free Speech Movement. Because they said it was all about ideas, the university should be about ideas, not about corporate takeover of the university. In the very same time, Clark Kerr, then the president, talked about the knowledge factory. Of course, that upsets students because many of the students of that era did not want to be their mom and dad who just never questioned authority, they just put a hat on, like an IBM mentality hat. DB (00:29:55): I came out to Berkeley, I met with [inaudible], (19)64, (19)65 because Clark Kerr wanted me to come the head of the Institute on Labor Relations. So he invited me to come out to Berkeley, talk with him about it, I did. Of course now I was crossing the campus with Marty Lipset. [inaudible]. SM (00:30:18): Oh, yes-yes. DB (00:30:20): A man came running across the campus, said, "Hey, Lipset. We are off of the July Days, we're going on to October." I said, "Who is that?" He said, "Oh, it is that crazy nut, Mario Savio." They had an image of the Russian Revolution. The July Days were the ones when after all, they tried to turn against Kerensky. SM (00:30:40): So, the Free Speech Movement was a- DB (00:30:57): I do not know if you have seen the film Arguing the World? SM (00:30:59): No. Well, maybe I have. But was that a documentary? DB (00:31:05): Well, in a way, yes. I strongly urge you to see the film. It's about four of us from City College and our past live [inaudible]. It is about Irving Howe, Irving Kristol, Nathan Glazer, and myself- SM (00:31:27): Kristol? DB (00:31:27): ... coming out of City College and moving out into the larger society. SM (00:31:31): And that was Seymour Lipset too, right? DB (00:31:35): Lipset was not in this one. SM (00:31:35): So, it was Howe... DB (00:31:37): Howe, Kristol, Glazer, and myself. SM (00:31:39): Okay. DB (00:31:40): There is a text of that that had been put up by the University of Chicago Press, edited by Joseph Dorman who did the film. So you may want to get a copy of the book called Arguing the World. This gives you the debate between the four of us and our friends from City College starting out in (19)38, (19)39 and moving up to the 1970s. Well, it is published by University of Chicago Press, the text of it, and the film itself is very strong in many ways. You can probably call PBS. SM (00:32:30): I can get. You can get anything on the computer if you need access to something. I- DB (00:32:40): The film called Arguing the World and directed by Joseph Dorman, D-O-R-M-A-N. I said, then there's a text of it elaborated, probably find the University of Chicago Press. I would say it would be a rather crucial book for you. SM (00:32:57): I may have... I have so many books. I am amazed that... In fact, I have just been here and I have bought a few books up at Harvard Square. I mean, they have great used bookstores around here. But obviously the Mario Savio and the group at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65 were not the same as the SDSers and the ones we were talking about at Columbia. But they were the precursors, they were the forerunners for all the movements that followed. They just celebrated the 50th anniversary of the Free Speech Movement out there just recently, too. Do you have any high regard for them in terms of the... Because there is quite a few names, the names, because there is like 20 of them that were student leaders. They have gone on in all different directions, some very successful in life. Mario Savio did not live very long. He's passed on. He was not very well for many, many years. There is a new book out on him, too, by Dr. Cohen, I think it is out of NYU. DB (00:34:07): I do not already know the Berkeley people at all. However, there is a long section on Berkeley in this film because of the fact that Glazer was teaching there. There is a woman who comes out attacking Glazer, and it turns out Sam become a member of the city council. SM (00:34:30): Oh my gosh. DB (00:34:34): Excuse me. SM (00:34:34): Yep. I have a couple quotes here that I want you to respond to from your book, The End of Ideology. Here is one quote... Oh, there's three of them and you can respond as a group. Quote number one: "We have seen the exhaustion of the 19th century ideologies of Marxism as intellectual movements that explain the truth." Well, you have already even referenced to that a little bit. Number two: "Many intellectuals have begun to fear the masses or any form of social action." I find that because when you look at the masses and social action, that is a lot of what the (19)60s was about. Then the third one, and I love this one and I hope I can somehow remember this forever. It was a quote, I think it came either you or [inaudible], "The difference between capitalism and communism: capitalism is system where man exploits a man and communism is vice versa." Now I hope I can remember that because that is a classic. When I read that, I said, "That is something, Steve, you ought to remember." But I wanted your thoughts here because when you look about the masses, whether the elite phrase of the masses or whatever, when you think of the Vietnam War and you think of the movements, they were about masses of people. The Montgomery Boycott with was about a mass of African Americans who said that, "We're not going to ride the buses." The 1963 March on Washington was a mass gathering where Dr. King gave his famous speech. You had the Black Panthers, you had these other groups, the Young Lords, the American Indian Movement, the National Organization for Women, the anti-war movement, the Earth Day group, the gay lesbian groups from Stonewall, and of course, the Black Panthers. These were all masses. These are masses of people. So, if what you are saying here is that many intellectuals have begun to fear the masses or any form of social action. How do you respond to that? Because that is what the (19)60s are really all about, and early (19)70s. DB (00:36:52): Well, different periods of time having the keyword. Nobody, today uses the word masses. At one time you had a magazine called The New Masses, which was the communist magazine, edited by Mike Gold and Joseph Freeman. Ortega y Gasset had a book about the masses, the famous Spanish [inaudible]. It is a word which has now gone out of relevance, partly because it never had a defined meaning, who were the masses. In some ways, Ortega's book, and he was after one of the most important philosophers of the (19)20s and such, were the scientists, which was is strange. But the word masses has gone out of fashion. Today you have race, gender, and equality. If you look through a period of the (19)50s and (19)60s, I do not think you will ever find the word gender. It was not a term that was used then. But now, gender became an important word to define the women's movement. You did not have a woman's movement then. Most of the movements in the (19)50s and (19)60s were led by men and you had very few women. In fact, the women were complaining they had to do the dirty work, cleaning up and such. Today, gender became a key word. The question is always when and where are keywords used and why. As I say, gender becomes important because it symbolizes the nature of the women's movement and women's rights. Nobody in that period of time, let us say of Mark Rudd, would ever think of gender. It was not within the framework they are thinking. So, masses disappears. And one of my books has a long essay on nature of masses, maybe in The End of Ideology or some other books. SM (00:39:12): This is another very important quote that... I have a lot of your quotes here, but... "A society is most vigorous..." This is very important, and I wish people would read this today. We maybe could get along better. "A society is most vigorous and appealing when both partisans and critics are legitimate voices in the permanent dialogue that is the testing of ideas and experiences. One can be a critic of one's country without being the enemy of its promises." That is prophetic. In my view, if the people that were either leading the country during the Vietnam War, the divisions over civil rights, if they sat down and discussed these two quotes and just the importance of opposing points of view... They are important in your eyes, are not they? DB (00:40:05): I would say this, that certain statements are derivative of their time and relevant to their time and certain statements transcend that. The one you have given me now, I would say transcends the nature of time. It is a permanent situation in any society where there are differences of opinion. I cannot think of any society, unless it is a totalitarian society, where you do not have differences of opinion. So, if you have differences of opinion, you have to respect the differences. I think one of the important things about this society is that it goes back in the very beginning of society, one of the things I used to say, I am not sure I could pinpoint where I said it exactly, is that until World War II, we never had a state in this country, we had government. You had states in Europe. Because these were unitary elements, were pulled alongside together. We only began to have a state where we got involved in war where you had to pull a pieces of society together. You had a government, and a government is different between a government and the state. Hegel used the word state, but not government, you see? I do not think if you ever go back and look at the writings of John Quincy Adams or Thomas Jefferson, they ever used the word state. They never thought of the United States as a state, even though the various states, the 13 states that made up a union. But it was not a state in Hegelian sense of unitary focus. We had a government, not a state. We began to have a state during World War II when we had to pull the society together and organize an army. We never had much of a standing army. A state has a large standing army. We never had a large standing army until World War II. Even afterwards, we still never had a large standing army. SM (00:42:30): Then, of course, we fought the Civil War and constantly, it was all about the union. It was the union, South and North. But we preserved the union. DB (00:42:40): It was a war between states. SM (00:42:47): Yes. DB (00:42:48): There was not gestalt, you see? SM (00:42:55): Yeah. Again, you had mentioned Mr. Berman, but are there any other people that you truly respected. We are talking about here, about, one can be a critic of one's country without being the enemy, I think there were many people did not understand that in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Because you had even Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon, two different Presidents, but very distrustful, opposing points of view of their policies. DB (00:43:24): But people forget that are not domestic issues, they are both fairly alike. Then Johnson built The Great Society, which was Medicare and extensive social security. Nixon tried to do that with Pat Moynihan as his advisor. But both got trapped by foreign policy. Therefore, the domestic agenda was pretty much eclipsed or simply laid low. But we forget that there is a domestic agenda in both cases, even with Nixon. Of course, with Pat Moynihan there as Nixon's advisor, there was an emphasis on the family and strengthening the family. I mean, the whole point of Pat Moynihan advice of Nixon is, one of the problems is that the Blacks in this country never had much of a family. They had been slaves or they dispersed. Therefore... I was on six to eight government commissions. The most important one was on technology and automation. Robert Robert Stovall and I directed most of the reports, one called Technology and American Economy. People do not know, do not remember or do not think about it, that one most important situation in increasing productivity in this country, particularly in late 1930s, 1940s, which was chemical fertilizers. Chemical fertilizer increased the productivity on the land. Before World War II, one of the bad, major social issues in this country was sharecroppers. People did not even know the word sharecropper, but these were people like the Blacks who lived on the land and with the chemical fertilizers, they were not needed. So they moved up North, they went to Watts in Los Angeles or to Harlem or Chicago. People say, "Look at all those Blacks that are unemployed." Well, they were never employed. There were sharecroppers on the land. Chemical fertilizers increased productivity enormously and pushed the Blacks off the land and moved them up... and pushed the Blacks off to land and moved them up north. Black became an issue in the north because of this. Great people understand, I know this, you see, because the Blacks had never been there, except in Harlem, had never been there in large numbers before. But the chemical fertilizers pushed them off the land. And what also happened is that the chemical fertilizers polluted many of the lakes and rivers. SM (00:46:28): That is right. DB (00:46:29): And created a social cost, which regular people had understood, because it was not there before, but the pollution in the lakes and rivers came from the chemical fertilizers, which increased [inaudible] society. So, you have the double edge of it. SM (00:46:47): It is amazing. Of course, the Hudson River is one of those rivers that was... Now, it is getting back to normal. I think they have been trying to work on it for years. Let make sure I switch the side here. I cannot even see how far we have got to go here. Yeah, I am going to... Make sure it's working okay. All right. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? DB (00:47:26): I have never liked the idea of dating particular periods of time as if there were unitary elements. They were not. It is part of our nature of a journalistic society where you have to have a label or something. So, you talk about the (19)60s, the (19)70s, the (19)80s. So many things were happening in each of them. There were so many cross currents. So, to talk about the (19)60s, as if there is something unitary about it, it is never made much sense. So, I cannot respond to the question, because I do not understand it as a question. SM (00:48:03): That applies to all the decades. Even people when they say that the (19)80s was Reagan. There is more than Reagan then. DB (00:48:13): Well, any period of time has many cross currents, so that, it seems to me, it makes no sense we have to talk about these (19)60s, and these (19)70s, and the (19)80s. What happened between 1975 and 1980. Do you know? SM (00:48:29): Between (19)75 and (19)80? Yeah, that was the year of the disco. DB (00:48:35): I am trying to show you that, what if you were breaking the thing down? What happened between 1975 and 1980, suddenly you find yourself a little wobbly. SM (00:48:43): Yeah, I know that the Iran hostage crisis was in (19)79 and that ruined Carter. Carter had problems with gasoline and all that other stuff. I could write them down, but you got to think a little bit. DB (00:49:01): I was an advisor to Carter. There's a book which came out recently about the Carter administration and the famous malaise speech of his. And Chris [inaudible], and we were both in the White House with dinner with Mr. Carter, and I respected Carter. People forget that Carter originally was an engineer. He claims a graduate of the Naval Academy, meaning he was a peanut farmer, but he was an engineer, and he had a very good rational mind, but he was caught by the circumstances, particularly by the Iran hostage situation. SM (00:49:41): Yeah. When you think of, again, the presidents that were in charge, supposedly, when the Boomers have been in line, that includes anybody from Harry Truman to Obama, do you pin any of them as greater than the others in terms of what they have done for [inaudible]? DB (00:50:03): Depends upon what issue you are thinking about. There are many different issues and many different circumstances. After all, Lyndon Johnson is defined very largely by the Vietnam War, which is true in the sense of, this was a major concern. But at the same time, they were building the Great Society Program, which people then tend to diminish or forget, and forget the people who served him. My friend Charles Haar at Harvard Law School, was very much in charge of the Cities Program and the Metropolitan Program. And they were very important people and who were very-very good, but they were diminished by the attention to the Vietnam War. SM (00:51:06): You wrote in your book... What is the basic theme of your book, the coming of the post-industrial society? And as an added note, are you the person that really came up with that term? It was Professor Bell. We never thought of that term until Professor Bell wrote about it in his book. DB (00:51:31): Well, no term ever comes cleanly out. David Riesman used the term at one point, much earlier, but it was never picked up, never done. There was a man in France who did a book on post-industrial society. But I was talking about two different things. One was the move away from manufacturing to services. The services were not simply the McDonald's hamburger kind of thing, but research services, there is other forms of service to the economy, and the word post-industrial was simply to indicate we are going beyond that. But the more important dimension of it was the development of the theoretical knowledge and the reliance on theoretical knowledge, and that many of the things we think about, we derive with theoretical knowledge. Let me give you an example. You know what a laser is? SM (00:52:36): Mm-hmm. DB (00:52:37): What is a laser? SM (00:52:39): Well, a laser a sends a beam. It is a beam of light. DB (00:52:45): Well, how is it different from other beams of light? SM (00:52:48): How is it different from other... I would think there would be intensity that you could control. DB (00:52:54): No. SM (00:52:55): No? DB (00:52:57): The laser goes back to a paper by Einstein in 1904, 1905, that light is not just a wave, but light is a quanta, a pulse. Laser is an acronym. Do you know what the laser means? SM (00:53:10): Mm-mm. DB (00:53:12): Light amplified by simulation of the emission of radiation, L-A-S-E-R. [inaudible] Charles Townes at Columbia in 1939. It's a different way of focusing light through the emission of radiation. So, it changes the plutonium view of light as a wave. And you have to know the theoretical foundations. That is Einstein to Charles Townes. And the word laser is an acronym. Light amplified by the simulation of the emission of radiation, L-A-S E-R. SM (00:53:51): When Clark Kerr gave that famous speech about the knowledge factory, you're talking about the post-industrial society, that is an important part of it, isn't it? The university is a knowledge factory and that is what- DB (00:54:02): Well, I do not like the word factory. SM (00:54:05): He wrote that in the uses of the university. DB (00:54:07): I know, but it's not a factory. A factory is organized about particular things. The thing about knowledge is, it is very diffused. You never know where it is going to come from, where it's going to go. So, I say the paper by Einstein in 1904 is a foundation of the laser along with many other things. But it went from Einstein to Charles Townes who was then a physics professor at Columbia who created the laser. And with a laser, you can send a beam to the moon. You can also do an operation on the eye. It is the use of light in a different way by the simulation of the emission of radiation, L-A-S-E-R. SM (00:54:51): That is what you mean by the codification of theoretical knowledge. DB (00:54:55): Yes. Exactly. Exactly. SM (00:54:58): You also said something very profound too in this book. And again, I have only read a couple chapters, that the growing tension between equality and meritocracy is something a social and ethical issue of the century. Now, that is pretty prophetic as well, because there's obviously been that... The whole, Dr. King, the (19)50s and the (19)60s short equality, not only African-Americans, people of color, women's, gay and lesbian in a double thing- DB (00:55:32): Well, people do not know who it was who invented the word meritocracy and what it meant. Actually, it was a word invented by a man named Michael Young, who was an Englishman who had been, at a one point, the head of the Labor Party research department. And he used the word meritocracy. In one sense, Jefferson used the same term without calling it meritocracy, namely, opportunities of men of talent to arise rather than birth. Before that, your status in society was based upon birth. And you inherited a piece of land, you inherited if a factory, you inherited a practice as a dentist. But Jefferson said, we want to have this open to men of talent, not just birth. Michael Young, when he did the book on the meritocracy, and he used the term... first one to use the term meritocracy, however, pointed out that there was a negative sense of meritocracy. And to some extent, I have understood that. His notice of the negative sense was, you longer had excuses to be where you were. You had no meritocracy. If you were in a low position in society, you were there because you had no merit. And therefore, meritocracy kept people down as well as moving people up. So, the idea of... When I was [inaudible] phrase a just meritocracy. I have always used the phrase, a just meritocracy, never meritocracy by myself. Because meritocracy also pushes people down. You have no excuses to be where you are, because you have no merit. But Michael Young was a very stimulating person, extraordinary man. SM (00:57:38): When was he alive? Or when was his heyday, so to speak? DB (00:57:43): Well, his main contribution came after World War-War II when he wrote most of the Labor Party documents. I spent the year with Michael Young in the Center for Advanced Studies. SM (00:58:00): Oh, in Princeton? DB (00:58:01): No, in Palo Alto in 1958, (19)59. And I wrote an... a collection of Michael Young's essays published by [inaudible]. And I wrote the introduction to that. And people right now no longer know Michael Young. He became Lord Young of Darlington and there's a Young Foundation in England. SM (00:58:38): There were two books that came out in the late (19)60s that were very popular with the young people. And they kind of explained the Counter Culture, and the different kinds of consciousness that was going on, the changes that were happening. As a sociology, I do not know if you ever assigned them to your students, but what were your thoughts of the Greening of America by Charles Reich? And the second one was The Making of a Counter Culture by Theodore Roszak. Those were very major books. I will add though, that Erick Erickson also wrote several books on protests and descent around that time, and so did Kenneth Keniston. So, when you think of that period, say from (19)67 to (19)73, (19)74, those are major, major writers? DB (00:59:27): Well, the two books you mentioned are forgotten, and rightly so. They are very slim books and very thin books. They were coining phrases, not really making an argument, particularly the Reich book. Whereas Erickson and Keniston, they were more serious people, particularly Erickson, of course. There's also a man in Harvard named Murray who invented The Thematic Apperception Test. But the Greening of America, it is a phrase, it is a title. It is not a theme or an argument. And The Making of a Counter Culture, well, where is the Counter Culture now? SM (01:00:16): I know in graduate school it was required reading. We had to read it. It had different levels of consciousness. And Dr. Roszak, I guess has just retired from University of California, Hayward. And he just wrote an update to it, as people are becoming senior citizens, The Making of a Counter Culture, where are they now kind of a book. But to you, they are not major at all? DB (01:00:45): No. SM (01:00:48): As a group of 75 million Boomers, how do Boomers fit into your definition of the post-industrial society? DB (01:00:58): Well, I find that too loose a generalization. Among 75 million, there must be about 70 million different opinions. So, I cannot respond to a question so loose as that. SM (01:01:14): Do you think that, this is a question I have asked everybody though, that because there were so many divisions in America and during that timeframe because of the Vietnam War, those who supported the troops, those who were against the troops, supported the war, against the war, divisions between Black and white. I was on college campus when those divisions were intense, certainly that the other divisions that were happening in America at that time. Do you think that this has permanently affected the generation, the Civil War generation, that they will go to their graves with not coming to terms with some of the divisions that they experienced in their lives? And I preface this by saying that we asked this question to Senator Edmund Muskie when we took a group of students to Washington DC in 1995, because the students who were not alive in the (19)60s wanted to find out if he had his thoughts on what they had read in their classes, that the nation was on the verge of the second civil war, that all the things that they had seen in 1968 at the Democratic Convention, and the assassinations, and the president resigning, and riots and burnings and everything, wanted to know if that would have had a permanent effect on the generation which was their parents. DB (01:02:40): Well, again, I think of the whole statement, two set of loose terms, the verge or the verge [inaudible] the case and civil war between whom and whom? Again, these are phrases, not ideas. SM (01:02:59): But the healing though, that is really with respect to those who served in the war, the Vietnam veterans and those who protested the war, some of them may have issues as they move on. DB (01:03:15): Well, there is one woman who changed so much of this. You know who that would be? SM (01:03:22): One woman who changed... DB (01:03:24): All these perceptions. SM (01:03:28): No. DB (01:03:29): Her name is Maya Lin. SM (01:03:31): Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. The wall. DB (01:03:36): Suddenly you have a very different feeling about the war when you see all those names on the wall. When she first proposed the wall, Bill Buckley said, "This is dreadful. We do not want this modernist stuff. Why do not we have a traditional thing?" So, most people do not realize, if you go look at the wall, that next to is a man on a horse, a traditional statue, which supposed to symbolize, you see, the Vietnam War, which nobody even looks at. SM (01:04:05): You are talking about the Three Man Statue? DB (01:04:07): Hmm? SM (01:04:08): The Three Man Statue, you are talking about? DB (01:04:10): I do not remember what it is. SM (01:04:11): Yeah. DB (01:04:12): But Maya Lin's wall suddenly became the symbol, and suddenly gave a sense of appreciation of the names of these people. SM (01:04:28): You find it interesting it took the Vietnam veterans to take the lead on the monument issue, because there had been no World War II Memorial, there had been no Korean War Memorial. There really had not been a World War I Memorial. And now, there is the World War II, there's the Korean... They have kind of taken a lead in that area. DB (01:04:47): And the Roosevelt Memorial. SM (01:04:48): Yes, the Roosevelt, and now the Martin Luther King. DB (01:04:50): Quite late. SM (01:04:51): Yes. And then the MLK Memorial, which is being built right now. Jan Scruggs wrote the book To Heal a Nation. That was his book. DB (01:05:01): Who? SM (01:05:02): Jan Scruggs, the founder of the Vietnam Memorial. And the goal of his effort to get the wall built was to heal the veterans and their families, and to pay respect to those, but in some sense, to also help the nation heal from the war. And I will respond that Edmund Muskie, he did not even mention 1968 in his response. His response was, we have not healed since the Civil War and in the area of race. And then he went on to talk about that for the next 15 minutes. And then he said, and by the way, we almost lost an entire generation of Americans when 430,000 men died. The effect that this had on future generations of America, it was devastating. DB (01:06:01): I am beginning to fade. SM (01:06:03): Okay, I got, all right, maybe three more questions? DB (01:06:07): Well, go ahead. SM (01:06:11): See if I can cut this down. I guess maybe what I will do, instead of asking these specific questions, I will just mention some of the personalities of the period and just give you... Because you had strong feelings toward Mark Rudd and others. And I to usually end my interviews by as listing about 20, 25 names, people just give a quick response to them, in terms of that period. For the following people, just your thoughts on the following people mean to you. Tom Hayden? DB (01:06:55): A crooked man. Look at the film Argue in the World. There's interviews with-with Hayden there, you will see what I mean. SM (01:07:05): How about Jane Fonda? DB (01:07:08): Rather forlorn personality. SM (01:07:11): Rennie Davis. DB (01:07:14): No one will ever know that name again. SM (01:07:17): Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. DB (01:07:21): Two clowns. SM (01:07:23): Timothy Leary. DB (01:07:27): Worse than that. A man who would destroy himself. SM (01:07:36): Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers. DB (01:07:39): Decent man, was unfairly roughed up by the Nixon administration. SM (01:07:49): Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. DB (01:07:53): Decent men, particularly McCarthy. McGovern, I support McGovern when he ran, because my colleague, Irving Kristol, supported Nixon, but both decent men, but not major figures. SM (01:08:11): How about John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy? DB (01:08:17): John Kennedy was a personal force, but never had sufficient weight of ideas. But we never had a chance to find out. Robert Kennedy, such a mixture of things. He worked for Nixon. One time was pretty much on the right and on the left. You never knew, in a sense, what the man was about. And he died too soon. SM (01:08:50): How about Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. DB (01:08:54): Well, Nixon was a very clever man, very shrewd man in his way. Spiro Agnew was a complete crook.... way, could describe as a complete crook. SM (01:09:04): LBJ and Hubert Humphrey. DB (01:09:08): LBJ was a very good man. Could have been a great man, but was trapped by the Vietnam War. Hubert Humphrey was a very nice man, but not an intellectual. He wanted to be an intellectual, but never was. And that was his problem. SM (01:09:28): Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter. DB (01:09:31): Well, Gerald Ford was a decent man and he played a decent role when he was in the White House. I think Jimmy Carter was very much underrated. And his work after he left office, and going around the world and such, been very important work. SM (01:09:51): How about George Bush Number 1 and Ronald Reagan. DB (01:09:57): George Bush Number 1 was a fairly good politician, and as a political person, played out a good role. Ronald Reagan, I have never understood, really have never understood, because he is a man who responds to cue cards. But he does is very well. I have never understood the adulation for Reagan or what achievements were supposed to have been. I think what he did do, in a way, was to take the country, which felt very guilty by the Vietnam War, and got the country to put it all aside for a while. SM (01:10:45): Well, Bill Clinton and George Bush the Second. DB (01:10:50): Clinton was a very good politician, very shrewd, very smart, but never wholly consistent. George Bush the Second, to me, was a cipher, a little cipher, and in many ways a very unfortunate president. Particularly by letting Cheney do so much behind the scenes. SM (01:11:22): Of course, President Obama and Dwight Eisenhower. DB (01:11:26): Well, I think Obama has great potential. His books of wonderful books, great sense of feeling, but he has not had that much of a chance, now, to really bring it out. Eisenhower was a man who was underrated. He was very good, very shrewd, but he was shrewd enough to appear not to be shrewd. SM (01:11:52): How about Harry Truman, because he was the very first president for the movers. DB (01:11:58): I would say Truman was, again, underappreciated. He was a very good president, most importantly, because like Nixon, he knew how to choose good people around him. SM (01:12:10): Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, people who stood out for the Women's Movement. DB (01:12:20): Gloria Steinem was a great publicity hound, and very shrewd at that. Bella Abzug, again, she was defeated by Pat Moynihan, and eclipsed by him. SM (01:12:38): Mm-hmm. DB (01:12:41): And who was the third one you mentioned? SM (01:12:44): Oh. It was Betty Freidan, Bella Abzug, and Gloria Steinem. DB (01:12:49): Well, Betty Friedan was important because she was able to re-focus attention on the nature of the Women's Movement, and the Women's Movement's role. But, essentially, it was the ability to put forth an issue rather than anything else. Gloria Steinem always took issues. People forget that one time she worked for the CIA. SM (01:13:15): I did not know that. DB (01:13:16): Yeah. SM (01:13:16): Oh, my God. DB (01:13:17): She and Clay Felker. When the CIA was setting up movements to oppose communist fronts, she worked for the CIA at one time. And then, she married Mort Zuckerman. We could go to any lengths to see how weird this woman is. SM (01:13:37): How about Malcolm X and Dr King. DB (01:13:43): Malcolm X became important because King was killed. And his rhetoric was, for a while, very strong. But after a while people realized it was rhetoric. King had a strength of personality, but people forget, he was also plagiarist. SM (01:14:08): That is come out recently from- DB (01:14:10): Came out sometime ago. SM (01:14:12): Clayborne Carson, or... DB (01:14:13): Sometime ago. But that famous speech of his, it was ad hoc. "I have a dream." SM (01:14:23): He did use that in some of his sermons before, too. It was an ad hoc, but he had used that phrasing in some of his sermons. DB (01:14:31): No. He was very shrewd in terms of knowing when to put forth certain ideas and certain rhetoric. And he was able to take advantage of it. SM (01:14:40): During that period, you had the Big Four. And I do not think you have seen anybody since. The Big Four, which was James Farmer, Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, and Dr King. That was a powerful portion of this. DB (01:14:51): Well, I knew Farmer quite well. He was a good man, but never had real strength behind him. Wilkins is a very, very good man. Wilkins is a real intellectual among them, in a way. Who was the fourth? SM (01:15:05): Whitney Young, and Dr King. You already mentioned [inaudible]. DB (01:15:11): Whitney Young was a good leader of NAACP, for groups for that kind, but, except for the last one, never played a national role. But Roy Wilkins, particularly in terms of Washington politics, played a much more important role. SM (01:15:28): How about Muhammad Ali and Jackie Robinson, because they were monumental people-people. DB (01:15:33): Well, I have never been a fan of boxing, so I cannot talk about Muhammad Ali. Jackie Robinson was an extremely good baseball player and deserved, in that sense, his fame. SM (01:15:52): And then, the Black Panthers. And I have to admit, because there is [inaudible]. DB (01:15:54): The Black Panthers were a dreadful movement, in which the one-time Horowitz, was-was right wing, wrote about the Black Panthers. They were dreadful people in terms of people they killed and the people they tried to support, and such. SM (01:16:20): There is- DB (01:16:20): I think the Black Panthers did more to destroy the Black movement then almost anything else. SM (01:16:26): Yeah. I will mention, though, that there are six big personalities that stand out here. And of course, it is Bobby Seal, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Etta Brown, and Stokely Carmichael. And Nate Hilliard is another one. Elaine Brown. They are big names. DB (01:16:46): Well, they are all names. Cleaver, however, as you know, went overseas, and then turned the other way. Went over to the right. SM (01:16:54): Right. DB (01:16:57): Bobby Seal. Well, one has to distinguish those people built up by the press and by the need for certain individuals to build up people like that, from their actual accomplishments. SM (01:17:12): Forget Mark Rudd, here. What did you think of Bernadine Dohrn and Bill Ayers, because they were the weatherman? DB (01:17:18): Well, Dorhrn was a dreadful person, the way she, at one point, approved of the Manson killing. They stuck a fork in a woman. Oh, yeah. I think she is a dreadful person. SM (01:17:41): How about George Wallace? DB (01:17:44): Who? SM (01:17:44): George Wallace. DB (01:17:46): You mean from the south? SM (01:17:47): Yes. DB (01:17:47): Well- SM (01:17:49): He was in the elections there, a couple times. DB (01:17:50): He was a southern politician, and a bad one. And he was very dangerous for the country. SM (01:17:56): How about Barry Goldwater and William Buckley, these real strong conservatives. DB (01:18:00): Well, Goldwater, for his time, was a fairly good man. But then, other than the phrases that he used when he ran for President, had no real substance. Buckley was an incredibly shrewd man, and incredibly good at publicity, debate, and very effective. Had respect for Buckley. SM (01:18:35): And then, the last thing is just these terms or these events. What did Woodstock and the Summer of Love mean to you? DB (01:18:46): Again, these are media terms built up by attention by the media. And Woodstock, somebody gave a phrase. The Summer of Love, people would not even understand what it means anymore. One has to distinguish between media-built sensations and actual movements. And I do not think either Woodstock or so-called Summer of Love, the hate Asbury kind of thing- SM (01:19:13): Mm-hmm. DB (01:19:15): ... are real movements. These were media events. SM (01:19:18): How about Watergate? DB (01:19:25): Watergate was an actuality, and proved how duplicitous Nixon and his camp could be. SM (01:19:39): The other thing I mentioned was just the term, counterculture. What does counterculture mean to you, and communes? DB (01:19:45): Nothing anymore. SM (01:19:46): Communes. DB (01:19:48): Nothing anymore. SM (01:19:49): A couple who have gone on to be fairly successful. Woodward and Bernstein. They are thought to have changed the way journalism was. DB (01:19:58): Yes. I think it did change, in a way, but more so again, as a media event than actuality. And best illustration, the Times never became a Woodward and Bernstein kind of paper, became a sober-grade paper, as it should be. SM (01:20:23): How about the Vietnam Veterans against the War? DB (01:20:28): No understanding of that. SM (01:20:31): The American Indian Movement? DB (01:20:33): Again, no understanding of it. I do not even know what it is. I know what the term is supposed to say, but I do not know what it means. SM (01:20:41): The Young Lords were the Latino version of the Black Panthers. They were big in Philadelphia. DB (01:20:49): Again, I have no sense of what all that is anymore. SM (01:20:53): And the National Organization for Women, as a group? DB (01:20:56): A what? SM (01:20:57): Now. DB (01:20:58): Again, no feeling for what it means. SM (01:21:03): And the Equal Rights Amendment. That failed, but there was strong attempts for it. DB (01:21:13): What rights do you want? When you say equal rights, there is no specification of, what rights do you want? Again, one has to distinguish between a mood, a movement, and actuality, and as all these things roll together. SM (01:21:33): And the year 1968, which is a traumatic year, which included Tet. DB (01:21:40): Well, again, I do not like such terms. I do not think they are useful, at all. I think they obscure more than they help. SM (01:21:53): This might be a general question, too, but you are a scholar, you are a writer, and you have written about periods, you wrote, in the 1950s, The End of Ideology. Do you think that a person like you, 50, 60 years from now, when most of the Boomers have gone on to higher Up, let us not even talk about what they are going to say about the Boomers? What are they going to say about young people and the people that grew up after World War II? What would the legacy be of that period, that many believe is a period of disruption and change? DB (01:22:30): Well, what's interesting to me is how quickly so much of that gets obscured now by the Muslim problem. Suddenly, the Muslim problem's everywhere. Paul Burner writes a book attacking a Muslim thinker, and the papers are full of arguments about that. Suddenly, that obscures everything else before. Beginning of the year 2000, the Times Literary Supplement published a list of the most important books of the last 50 years, or more. And two of my books were listed, The End of Ideology and The Cultural Context of Capitalism. Two books by Isaiah Berlin were listed. Two books by Belinda Orange. David Reisman and Ken Cavalharad had only one book listed. SM (01:23:28): Wow. DB (01:23:28): So, if you look at the Times Literary of Supplement, which afterward, was one of the most important intellectual journals, they list the most important books. But who would know that, Isaiah Berlin, Cavalharad, and myself, the only ones who had two books listed. SM (01:23:42): What an honor, though. What an honor. This book is a classic book. I have actually encouraged people to read it, right now, The End of Ideology. I think it is great. DB (01:23:54): Well- SM (01:23:56): I think it is got so much context. And when I was reading it, and when I read it a long time ago, because it was linked to a class, but now I am reading it, I can enjoy it more, and I can take a chapter, and I can take a page, and I can take an idea, and just stop and try to understand it more, rather than rushing it for a class, which I had to do when I was much younger. But it was very good. My very last question is this. And I thank you very much for spending this time with me. And I truly appreciate I it. It is an honor to meet you. The (19)50s, you were a journalist in the very beginning of your career, and then, you became a professor. But I was curious of what you thought about television and the television media. Because the young people that grew up after World War II, TV was what replaced the radio. And, of course we knew about the Vietnam War through television more than any other war. The question is, do you think that describe the (19)50s television, particularly when this generation was younger in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, really is exemplary of the times they were living in? Can I just put mention these? When you look at the (19)50s, now, this is a little boy. I am remembering now, me as a little boy watching TV near Ithaca, New York. I can remember seeing Victory at Sea, Hopalong Cassidy, watching Walt Disney, Edward R Murrow, I loved him, Arthur Godfrey, I know my parents loved him, and Art Linkletter's House Party, those things kind of stand out, and all the westerns, of course. Then, you get into the (19)60s, and the things that stand out more was TV shows like Laugh-In. You see more and more Black artists. Vietnam War's on TV, the Smothers Brothers seemed to be highly unusual, and All in the Family was something that stood up for the (19)70s. I guess, the question I am asking is this, how has TV influenced the young people of that grew up after World War II? And do you believe that the television and journalism as a whole in the 1950s hid some of the realities of the bad things that were happening in America, right up to the time President Kennedy was elected? DB (01:26:28): Let me put it this way. I think what TV did was to make us aware of a visual culture. Now, it is interesting that there was something before that, which was very visual, but never had that effect. And that was photography. Photography was about a hundred years old by the time of TV. But photography never had that much of an effect. There are great photographers like Steichen, and others, very great photographers. But it never had a mass effect the way TV did. And what TV did was to move, radio did not disappear, radio, in fact, flourished to when people used their cars more. Because when you drove your car, you put on the radio. But it made us predominantly a visual culture, and gave us a sense of the impact of things. Because what it did is allow us to visualize things. So, yes, it has it changed the way the Gutenberg press changed the nature of culture of its own time. Do you know who the Cuopisei were? SM (01:27:40): The who? DB (01:27:40): Cuopisei? SM (01:27:40): How do you spell that? DB (01:27:52): C-U-O-P-I-S-E-I. SM (01:27:52): No. DB (01:27:58): The Cuopisei were all the people thrown out of work by the Gutenberg Press. They were the copyists. Before the Gutenberg, people had books, but they were done by copyists. And Thomas Carlisle wrote a wonderful book about this. But the first technological unemployment were really the copyists, because people had books, but they were copies written out by people who were paid to copy a book. For the Gutenberg Press, you had moveable type. And therefore, you can do away with the copyist. In some way, TV had an impact the way the Gutenberg people did. And the contrast, I would say, is with photography, as you had to the copyists before with the Gutenberg Press. You had photography before, but never had that kind of impact the way television did. SM (01:28:58): One last thing I forgot to mention. What were your thoughts of Kent State and Jackson State? DB (01:29:02): About what? SM (01:29:04): Kent State and Jackson State in 1970. That was such a tragic event. DB (01:29:08): Well, these were horrible events, and rightly so. But there you see the impact was due to photography, the image of the young woman- SM (01:29:24): Yes. DB (01:29:24): ... and the man being shot. There, it was not television, but photography, which became important. SM (01:29:31): Are there any final thoughts you have in terms of, I am writing about Boomers, and we have hit a lot of different areas here. And you have hit different angles that other people have not hit, in terms of ideas and what you have written, and so forth. But is there any- DB (01:29:50): I would hope never to have final thoughts. I would be able to go on and on and on and on. SM (01:29:55): Is there any question I did not ask that you thought I might ask? DB (01:29:58): No. SM (01:29:58): No. DB (01:30:00): You have been very comprehensive. SM (01:30:02): Well, thank you very much, professor. It is an honor, an honor indeed. And I am going to take- (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Daniel Bell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bell, Daniel, 1919-2011 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Sociologists; Authors; Editors; College teachers; Bell, Daniel, 1919-2011--Interviews Description An account of the resource Daniel Bell (1919 - 2011) was an American sociologist, writer, editor, and academic, best known for his contributions to the study of post-industrialism. He received his B.S. at City College of New York and his Ph.D. at Columbia University. Bell became a professor of sociology at Harvard University, where he remained until 1990. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.22 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 90:13 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/60e1630bc1016f93106ae50ffaccbd1b.jpg 669b9785a8e8ad007d873a3847fffe26 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/71d4d39e9e7bed1ff17940719af0e9f9.mp3 0a7cfabc5cf066ef420eb8d1cef2e922 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Boldt Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;David Boldt was editor of the editorial page of The Philadelphia Inquirer and a political columnist for the same paper during the 1980s and 1990s. Boldt won the Pulitzer Prize as a member of The Inquirer's team that covered a nuclear accident at the Three Mile Island electrical power plant, and received a citation for excellence from the Overseas Press Club for his reporting on the Islamic Revolution in Iran. Boldt has taught undergraduate and graduate courses in interpreting contemporary affairs as an adjunct professor at Temple University in Philadelphia. He earned a Bachelor's degree in History from Dartmouth College.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">David Boldt was editor of the editorial page of <em>The Philadelphia Inquirer</em> and a political columnist for the same paper during the 1980s and 1990s. Boldt won the Pulitzer Prize as a member of the <em>Inquirer</em>'s team that covered a nuclear accident at the Three Mile Island electrical power plant and received a citation for excellence from the Overseas Press Club for his reporting on the Islamic Revolution in Iran. Boldt has taught undergraduate and graduate courses in interpreting contemporary affairs as an adjunct professor at Temple University in Philadelphia. He earned a Bachelor's degree in History from Dartmouth College.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby Baby boom generation; Women's Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-War Movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Tom Hayden; Linden Johnson; Bobby Kennedy; Vietnam War memorial; Bill Clinton&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:2,&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Baby boom generation; Women's Movement; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-War Movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Tom Hayden; Lyndon Johnson; Bobby Kennedy; Vietnam War memorial; Bill Clinton</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 121:15 Subject LCSH Editors; Journalists; Awards—United States; Three Mile Island Nuclear Power Plant (Pa.); Iran—History—Revolution, 1979; Boldt, David--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: David Boldt Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: ND -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:03 SM: The Boomer generations and the (19)60s and early (19)70s is being attacked as one of the reasons for the breakdown of American society. Could you respond to this criticism and comment on the period and its impact on present-day America? 00:31 DB: Oh, boy. Yeah, I could probably write a book about that. Well, you know, I think that-that it is fair to say that almost every institution in our society was kind of torn apart during the (19)60s and (19)70s. Many of them for no good reason, and often rather thoughtlessly and without giving things a lot of attention. You know, you can go through a whole series of things from the breakdown of the institution of marriage to the drop off in the sense of obligations to the community. It undoubtedly became a generation that was—was very much into what we now call 'expressive individualism.' And that basically forgot, because, for the most part, it had it so easy, and had it so easy in a very profound way. That they just did not have a sense of why certain things were done the way they were done. And principle among those is the fact that you cannot have a democratic society unless people are as aware of their responsibilities of that society as they are of their rights. And we basically lost that sense of responsibility. 'If it felt good, do it' was the maximum of the generation. They were brought up by a generation that had been through the Depression and World War II that had really been through hard times. And you know, to some extent, I think the parents of the boomer generation and my parents, I am—I was born in 1941, so I sort of saw them kind of coming up behind me. The parents, of that generation just went to incredible lengths to protect their children against the very kind of experience that had enabled them to succeed. Whether that was getting a good education, you know, establishing a successful relationship with other people, whether it was in the family, or in any of our institutions or universities, with our political community. Keep this [inaudible] 3:36 SM: What has been the overall impact of the Boomers on America? Positive or negative? 3:41 DB: Well, we just had the, I mean, it was all summed up by Tom Wolfe and the "me" decades. We had an entire huge generation dominating, or certainly its elites, as they emerged in journalism, in the media, in politics, in the entertainment industry, that was just totally self-indulgent. Or remarkably self-indulgent, not totally. The question is what was the effect? The effect was to completely lose the sense that rights carry with them responsibilities. You know, when Thomas Jefferson wrote The American Ideal that all men are created with certain unalienable rights: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. He was writing that in a frame of mind where he believed that if people pursued happiness, they would regard the chance to be a fully involved citizen, a parent, an effective member of the community at work and in the civic realm as maximum happiness. And for this generation, it became too often, the pursuit of happiness reverted down to the lower nature of man and became a seeking of pleasure through music, artificial substances— basically drugs, sexual experiences, and we just lost that whole enlightenment mindset which is so basic to the to the American faith and to the success of the nation. And the whole— I think the whole experiment became imperiled, because the wretched excesses of the baby boomers. Yeah, I believe that in social history, as in physics, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. And so, you had— not only did this create this tremendous culture of self-indulgent pleasure, but it created its opposite as well— the reaction to it. You know, I have often thought that the antics of the left as much created Watergate as did Richard Nixon himself. It became an atmosphere in which excess was— in which it turned out that Barry Goldwater's supposedly rejected idea that moderation is a— can be a, in certain circumstances a vice, and excess can be a virtue. I mean, he ultimately triumphed! It turned out to be what was believed and it ended up— I mean, many other commentators have written about this. And I guess the most evocative is Tom Wolfe in the "me" decade, which I still think is the most, it stood the test of time and is the clearest, most effective analysis of that time. 07:40 SM: Let us double check to make sure everything is working here. Okay, but you have to admit also that there are probably— let me get out my questions here, so I get a spontaneous feel and the written questions. [laughs] Cannot you say that there were some good things, though, with respect to the boomers, in terms of the fact that this generation ended a war, responsible for ending a war. In my comment— in my interview with Senator McCarthy, I asked him specifically that particular question that if there is not any other generation in American history that had such an impact on American foreign policy. And he said there were other perils in American history but not to the extreme of the boomers and what they did. So, they ended the war, many young people got involved in the Civil Rights Movement, many young people get involved in the environmental movement, for the Earth Day. So, with, do you think the media portrayed them in such a way that it is not doing justice to some of the good things they did? 08:50 DB: Well, that is just flat wrong. First of all, the baby boom generation did not end the Vietnam War. Like it or not, Richard Nixon ended the Vietnam War. And he ended it after defeating the Peace Party candidate George Govern— McGovern—by, I think, one of if not the biggest, one of the biggest landslides in American political history. I mean, it is amazing to look back and see that from 1970 onward, something like 70 percent of the American people were against our involvement in the war, yet somehow rather the antiwar movement, and I think this is unprecedented in our history, the antiwar movement was never able to get it together sufficiently to turn that around. I mean, what they should have done, instead of marching in Washington, which really turned out to be sort of a waste of time and, you know, everybody felt good about it, they really did not do anything. But they needed to do was go out and defeat congressmen who were voting for the war or supporting the war effort. And elect those that were, and they had to get out and elect a presidential candidate in 1972, or 1968, who would have ended the war. The Civil Rights revolution had nothing to do with the baby boomers, except that they-they were in on sort of the victory celebration of it. And that that gave them this feeling that they were both Vietnam, the fact that the Vietnam War was looked upon as a great moral victory of the people who were opposing an unjust war. And we will always wonder just why it was that all those people fled from the communists as they moved into the country, whether they really were all this capitalist dupes have always wondered why it is that the United States is now being welcomed back into Vietnam, in such an open, in such an open armed way as to whether we will always wonder if our perspective on that was-was totally correct. Either when we were for the war or when we turned against it-it was a very difficult situation very nuanced. But turning to civil rights, I mean, the Civil Rights Act passed in 1964, when the baby boomers were still in the middle of a, we were just starting college, I guess, or the for the first of them had just gotten to be, just gotten to college, I guess. There were no baby boomers involved in Mississippi summer, which was when you had to really suck it up and go down there and do something that was really dangerous. They were there for sort of the celebrations afterwards. There were no baby boomers on the podium at the Civil Rights March 1963, very few I suspect in the crowd. Baby, the civil rights revolution was won by, as nearly as I can tell, there were no baby boomers on the freedom rider buses. There were no baby boomers marching in Selma. The leaders of the Civil Rights Movement had a belief, were religious leaders, were the kind of leaders that the baby boomers would later reject, laugh at ridicule. And so, I have never marked leaders of the Civil Rights revolution lest we forget, we are people like Martin Luther King, Ralph Abernathy. They are the people I know of who were inside the University of Mississippi, where people like Ed Goffman, who was my predecessor is the editor of the editorial page, he was down there for the Department of Justice. Right? He is a World War II veteran. The basic legislation that brought about the Civil Rights revolution in 1964, brought about the culmination of the Civil Rights revolution, was done with without any conspicuous assistance from the baby boom generation, but they always thought that they had something to do with it, because they were there. What was the third thing that you were getting credit for? 13:38 SM: Well, the environmental movement Earth Day, 1970. 13:46 DB: Well, I do not know. I do not know enough about the history of the environmental movement, to say, you know, to what extent it was, it was successful, it was always had its greatest successes. So, when it was removed from the spirit of environmental Nazism, which characterize sort of the baby boomer-boomer approach, marching in front of nuclear power plants, it was nothing. And when you had people like the Environmental Defense Fund, who were able to negotiate things that actually bring about formulas in legislation that drastically reduced the amount of pollution that was being put into the air, and to clean up rivers, and maybe there are a few baby boomers involved in there. But yeah, I mean, it is the environmental movement gets so difficult to analyze. Did you see the cover story in New York Times Magazine four weeks ago? That said basically, recycling is the most fun wasteful activity that humans engage in. That I will not attempt to recapture the entire thing, but it is- it makes us feel good. And we tell all our kids about all things that have been accomplished by recycling. And it actually turns out that it is not any particular benefit to us that we are not running out of place to put our trash that it is probably environmentally more sound certainly, and I mean, I was just thinking about this the other day, it was big fight that we had to we had to have a trash to steam plan. And I think everybody with a college degree, I think every member of the baby boomer generation in Philadelphia, certainly the college educated part of the baby boomer generation, but Philadelphia absolutely had to have a trashed steam plant to take care of its trash, and it was just kind of the low rent blue collar people of South Philadelphia, a couple of kind of aging crypto Marxists like David Cohen on the city council, who said, no this is not a good idea. Now we have to look back on that whole situation and say, those people were right. We did not need to trash the steam plan, the trash to steam plan would have actually added to pollution as opposed to what we are doing with our trash now. So, I look on the environmental movement as-as being a mixed movement. And, and I guess I should say that I do not really know a lot about who the people were. I have met the guy who was who started the first Earth Day. 16:42 SM: It was Senator Nelson. 16:44 DB: Well, no this was actually a guy named, who got Senator Nelson to do it and he went around, he was doing the 25th anniversary. 16;52 SM: Right. 16:52 DB: So you got sort of petered out, you know, the Earth Day for a few years now. Then they had a big splash on its 20th or 25th anniversary, whatever, whatever it was. And not much. And then in between, you know, the work was done. There are all kinds of ironies to the history of that situation. I will just mention one other one. John Ehrlichman, Nixon's, whatever he was, counsel, was one of the first environmental lawyer, the EPA was created during the Nixon administration. The fact that I will bet if you went around and asked 1000 people today, you could not get more than a handful to tell you that. It was because environmental ism was something that clearly had to be done at that time in terms of providing people with clean air and clean water. And we did it. 17:46 SM: We can agree that women's movement they were that was not late (19)60s, early (19)70s phenomena, as well as the same lines as the Civil Rights Movement. The terms that Laurie scholastic was not. Betty Friedan was not a boomer. 18:04 DB: Guess neither was who wrote. And neither was the woman who wrote the other. Oh, is Betty for Friedan is the feminine mystique. And then there is yet another that you have not mentioned. Yeah, the leaders that were not baby boomers. And the response to it among Baby Boomers has been equivocal, I mean, the feminist movement itself? Well, I, I do not know I have not studied the history of the women's movement that much. I never thought of it particularly as being connected with the boomers. 18:50 SM: This is kind of a long one here. Can today’s generation of youth, which is a slacker Generation X learn from the boomers. What can the boomers teach today's college students? This question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s as a period of activism, drugs and single-minded issues. Though many of the same issues remain there are new ones. And the lessons of the past are either not taught in schools or never discussed between the parents of the boomers and today's generation. Please keep your thoughts on the issues and Boomers lives and how they can have impact on students’ eyes today. 19:29 DB: Well, I guess what we are dealing with is the aftermath, trying to pick up the wreckage after the baby-baby boomers have gone through. And I guess in particular, destroyed our educational system came up with this idea that we no longer needed to have standards that would go to pass fail and that would be fine for college courses. We had all these grand experiments that were equally grand failures, open claims restrooms, social promotions. The new math could go on for some time. And we were now sitting around, we were trying to kind of put things back together again. And this is a federal Road A, I cannot remember his name. He is a Nobel Prize winner. He wrote a book called physics for poets. And he works with the Chicago Public Schools, one place where they-they seem to be making some progress, getting things back together again. He said somewhere back there in the (19)60s and (19)70s, we just lost it. I do not know what it was. I do not know what it was the new math, the open classroom. The fact that he says we cannot underestimate the fact that women suddenly discovered that the only career open to them was not they had other careers open to them besides teaching, and that had an effect on education was not compensated for it, I am very I am very much worried. I, you know, I would hope that generation X would represent kind of a reaction against the baby boom generation, that there would be a it would be sort of a return a new appreciation of political institutions, or social institutions. And there is not. The kids, the baby boomers not only did a bad job themselves, but they left the legacy behind of having been bad parents as well and raised a generation that does not know much or care much. And I do not know what we are going to do about that. I am not pessimistic. Because I do not think our I do not think young Americans, you know, fortunately us and for them. Still going? Yeah-yeah, I do not think young Americans are that much worse off than young Germans or young Japanese. I mean, it is sort of it is funny the way you know, kind of a spirit of the age passes around the entire world. But as luck would have it, slacker-slacker ism, is not confined to the United States. And our slackers will be up against the Germans and the Japanese slacker. And they may just come out of it. Alright. But at some time or other, I would like to see some sign that we understand again, the importance of our obligations, and our responsibilities to our community, to our families, to our government. Just like to see that. Rabbi, sometimes I feel I see signs that I do not think they can look to the boomers for that. And we have this oddity I mean, the person who seems to have the- we have the Republicans running somebody, the last tethering of the Second World War, I am sure he will run for president. And he is being run because he represents a- because it is felt- he represents a kind of moral values that he cannot find anywhere else. Or, you know, my own generation was kind of failure in terms of I mean, whatever you would call us that was kind of the last generation the niche between those people who went off to World War Two, and those who were born after World War Two. We did not for some reason, produce an effective, effective leadership. I do not know why that is. You look at the people who came close. And it is a little disappointing. I certainly do not think Gary Hart would have been a good president. And I cannot rattle off the ones that were candidates and might have even come close. But it is an interesting phenomenon that we have gone directly to a baby boom president from a world war two generation president has skipping over the generation in between. So, I am not sure it is fairly clear that generation X is not looking to us for leadership either. World War Two generation is now in its (19)70s. I think we are going through a period in which we are really going to have to reinvent America to use a cliche which it will have to be the kind of discovered anew why we did different things. And I hope it is, but I do not think they can look back. I thought, the basically Generation X from what I Read, look back at the (19)60s and they were sick and tired of hearing their parents say have great things had been good. The music had been wonderful it was to be so easily on the winning side and so many complicated. I would not say single minded, but perhaps simple minded issues that have in retrospect turned out to be a lot more complicated than we thought. I did not know what I mean, in Bill Clinton and his best, I think he has an understanding of what went wrong. And yet he is-he is also the embodiment of it. What went wrong? That is a tricky question. I do not know. I almost think that generally, the Generation X and whatever the generation is, is going to come after have to both look to the look to the past and look to the future. 25:59 SM: Some of the people- 26:00 DB: I mean the deep past, somehow or rather than have to rediscover history, there is no sign that they are. 26:08 SM: You have got to see some of the baby boomers today. Oh, no, it is still working. Yeah, read more. We have boomers like Bill Clinton, Al Gore got John Kessing, which was highly respected in the Republican Party, that you have got the Christian coalition of person like Ralph Reed. Now here, you see you have got extreme conservatives, and you have got liberals and again, moderates in the middle, you got people like Bill Clinton, and they tend to understand where he stands on an issue. There are boomers. So this is getting off the track. Here are the questions I am asking but what does that say about boomers when you see the differences even within that group? And there some may be lean towards your thoughts on what the boomer generation should be? 27:00 DB: Oh, perhaps they are. I mean, perhaps to be some, although, like, never turn around that that motif of just rampant hell for leather, damn the torpedoes. Individualism that mark the era? I mean, I guess Newt Gingrich, as close, as close as you come to sort of an antidote? I think some of them understand that. I mean, I was really, I think, actually, that was one of the things I gave you was, I thought that Al Gore's speech at the 1992 pension when he talked about how when we look into looking into his son's eyes after the accident, and saying that he then realized that we were on Earth for some larger purpose than ourselves, or however he put it. That was, I thought that was a very significant sign of maturity, of a real realization that we are part of what wolf in the me decade, calls the chromosomal flow, the flow of history of humanity through history, that we are an extension of our parents, and that our children are an extension of our lives. And it all goes on. We have an obligation to those children and their-their children, even. And so, I mean, you have people who are, you know, trying to point out the wretched excessive, somebody said, read just the other day, that Bill Clinton was the perfect expression of America at this time. Somebody who, you know, has great mind and tremendous ability, but total-total inability to control his own appetites or to dissect his own appetites, and a tremendous ambivalence. Although I sort of like his I am not one of those people who criticizes him for being wishy washy. I think a certain amount of deviousness is necessary in politics, and when used for good is not to be criticized. Franklin Roosevelt was so devious that his most trusted aides said they would come out of a meeting with him and not really sure where he stood on a particular issue. It is often a mark of greatness and a leader, and I have been a supporter of Clinton's, an avid supporter from very early on. And have this this this hope that he that because he is so much of his generation, his accesses are literally Sex, drugs and rock and roll. Even although he did not enhance Yeah. But that, you know, maybe he, because of what he understands. And I mean, is not an odd sort of way, but profoundly religious person. Which is not so odd. I mean, I think religion is one of the ways that you cope with the weaknesses of humanity. And to that extent, is somewhat different from many other boomers. But was the threat of where the question was? Maybe you better get me back on track. 30:33 SM: I am going to go on to a question here, where you could just get some adjectives to describe. If you describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe the qualities you most admire, and the qualities you least admire. first, if there is any qualities you admire. Well, okay, they are good. I think we should be pretty close to her. So, yeah. 30:54 DB: I think one thing you can say about baby boomers and whether or not they were in on the civil rights revolution, they are not racist. They are certainly not the extent they were [audio cuts] before. There you go. You know, one of the things. The other thing that happened during the baby boom, is that somehow America got separated into its cultural elites. And the great unwashed masses. And if you actually look at the voting record of baby boomers, it has been far more conservative than you think. Baby Boomers voted for Ronald Reagan. But the-the kind of opinion leaders and people who were kind of representing the generation kind of got disconnected this very complicated concept. I mean, entire books have been written about it, then Daniel Yankelovich, over to his book. Title, I have forgotten, I am getting to that age where you forget these things. Christopher Lasch wrote something that is literally like the disconnected. 32:07 SM: Elite, something of the elite. Yeah. 32:11 DB: In which he talked about this. So that happened. So it is true. I mean, you are talking about the baby boomers, you are talking about that kind of cutting edge. The baby boom, the one that was most in the media, but I will take care of all these. And so I say that. Baby boomers, whatever you make whatever else you may think about them, this is actually quoting somebody else's observation. They are not racist. And they, what else can you say that was good about them. Which me there was such a disappointment. I saw you know, as I went into my 20s, I thought, you know, gee, I am going to be part of the best educated, most healthy ablest generation in the history of the world has ever seen. So sort of, saw these, these ranks of people coming behind me that you know, in the time I grew up. I know, I am rambling. I will try to try to make a point here. My point and I do have one is that I really saw it as being the American century we hear we were intact as a nation, and you are kind of towering over war torn Europe and defeated Japanese and ravaged Chinese. And I thought that, you know, it was just going to be one of the-the golden arrows of a world history, and then kind of look back, and everything had come apart. So in terms of specific adjectives, there was hard to think of positive adjectives you want to say idealism. But it was an idealism that was so easily won so untested. In an idealism in which you had this peculiar turn about which cowardice could be seen as valor, the dodging the draft could be seen as a brave thing to do the long tradition in American history. People who disobey that, who opposed their country's position, but realize that their duty to the community required them to go along with it, you know, famous essays written by I am sorry, I cannot rattle off the names. But there is a famous poet who went off into the Mexican War American war even though he deeply opposed Oliver Wendell Holmes, I believe, sir In some war, he opposed and wrote very eloquently about, you know, I think this is wrong, but this is what my country is decided to do. 35:08 SM: But then you, William Fulbright wrote the book, The arrogance of power, that the-the true Democrats and the true will leaders were coached and refused to go. 35:19 DB: Well, that is right. So the saying became a very confused time. You are asking me to boil it down to a few adjectives, positive added adjectives would be I think you have to give them credit for being energetic, innovative. Lot of new things certainly brought up made the transition into they began the transition into the information age. Some questions whether they were making the turn or not. On the other hand, the-the advocates on the other side, I did not give you a very good answer. I mean, I suppose by thought longer, I could think of some more positive advocates. But the negative adjectives would be the ones I have used before self-indulgent, uncaring. Heedless. All of it caught so neatly in that song and hair. how can people be so cruel, especially people who care about people? There was a great tendency among the baby-baby boomers to love mankind but to be very unpleasant to be around. To love mankind, but not necessarily get along very well with people. And I think that song from here, really focused on that and really caught it. If you look at the lyrics, I think, tells you something. 36:54 SM: You hit a point though that an adjective if you were to even ask some of the generation X and the slackers characteristic that in the theory, they cared about minorities they cared about. They did not trust leaders. And that the whole concept of trust is another issue that is coming up later. Another question, but they were scared. They cared about the environment, they cared about minorities, they cared about what was happening, poverty in the inner cities they cared about. I know that some of the characteristics of the (19)60s liberals, for women behind the scenes, they were basically xeroxing off. We have heard all those stories; they really were not equal. But still, it was an era where a lot of people start caring about things feed instead of just going to work every day. That is what that that is interesting. Could you comment on that? Because I think caring you say they were not a caring group yet. So many things they got involved in that they did care that- 37:59 DB: I think it was summed up in that idea, they cared about humankind, but they did not care much about people. Going back to the civil rights, I mean, you can pick up on each one of the strands that you are pointing to. As I said, the important advances in civil rights were made by a previous generation. And they just kind of basked in the afterglow, of those accomplishments, the I mean, they created the welfare system, which turned out to be, I guess, one of the most pernicious social mechanisms in the history of the world. And now we are trying to figure out I mean, now we have had Bill Clinton come along, and say that we have got to change welfare as we know it, and everybody knows it. But we ended up spending a lot of money thinking, thinking really, that spending money on something would help. And if you go back and you look at what they actually did, there was a tremendous decline. During the ascendancy of the baby boomers, in participation in PTA meetings, in voting, I mean, if they cared, why did not they vote? In it, it is so many indices of so many indices of actual civic involvement and some extent, you cannot separate the baby boom generation and the effects that it had from the fact that it was also the TV generation. I wonder, I think we are just beginning to understand what that might mean. If someday it will be better known as the TV generation, then as the baby boom generation, because there is no question that watching television drained a lot of time that people might have otherwise spent being. Being ten mothers. What captures me is the epitome you caring about the environment, that we went from a time when my father would be president of the PTA. At the Roosevelt Elementary school would change the environment by getting a traffic light install the place where the kids had to walk across to get the school, to where the equivalent today would be someone who cares about the and that that required work, you know, going to meetings every month, getting-getting, putting up with a lot of crap going through dealing with a bureaucracy downtown. And whereas the caring about the environment seems to me to be consistent mainly, once a year, writing out checks for the Sierra Club and putting the calendar up on your wall. I do not see those signs; I think that the entire baby boom generation has been up until very recently. I know there is controversy about this, and I am following it closely. They are really trying to understand it. But certainly initially, there was a tremendous decline and involvement in civic organizations in kind of almost everything, but churches that cinco gone along almost the same level, kind of under the surface with nobody noticing. But, you know, all kinds of civic organizations, choral societies, you know, all the decline and all summarized in the essay Bowling Alone, which is a rebut by Robert Putnam at Harvard, where we stopped bowling leagues and went out and started Bowling alone. I mean, I think that is connected with the baby boom, phenomenon. There is also I noticed an essay disputing that in this weeks’ Time Magazine, that is complex. It is not, there is no simple answer, you know, as we were saying before, but the- this image of a caring is to care about them by to care about the urban poor. By having basically government programs that did not work and being tremendously reluctant to recognize only now is being recognized that we have not made a dent in poverty. And it is true. I mean, Ronald Reagan was right, we had a war on poverty and poverty won. The number of people living below the poverty line is I think, today the same as it was in 1960. Or maybe more. I mean, the poverty line is artificial blind. But, you know, I think that tells us something, we did not solve the problem. In fact, during the baby boom, ascendancy, you had the whole creation of the underclass, the whole division of the country, and the haves and have nots has accelerated, not decelerating. I do not see any signs of any great humanitarianism. 43:27 SM: Have you changed your opinion on the use of the (19)60s over the last 25 years, say when you were very 1978, what you thought about them, and maybe what you thought about in 1980, and then now in 1996- 43:41 DB inconsistent. I mean, I wrote, When the war ended in 1975, pretty much the same thing I told you about how it was not the antiwar movement that ended the war. In fact, the antiwar movement was remarkably ineffective, in terms of translating popular sentiment. Because, you know, just you had the-the radical part of the antiwar movement that could never kind of connect with the rest of the people who were upset about the war as well. It never became an effective movement. So, I mean, I can go back and if we went into the archives of the inquire, I think we can find they-they said exactly that 1974 Because anything, I have changed on that it has become an appreciation of you had really great music. The cynic might say they produce some really great elevator music. But there really has not been anything like that since. And This contributions in popular culture have been-have been pretty good. 44:57 SM: A lot of the music of that era was There are so many messages in the music. You know, there were a lot of messages written by Bill and he really sat down and listened to philharmonic orchestra some of those musicians of that era and really listened to the words and really, almost like goose bumps to you want to get out there move, be it be a changing, you know, for the betterment of society at times? 45:26 DB: Well, you know, I guess. I mean, that is-that is what I say is one thing, you ended up with an appreciation for the popular music and I heard somebody the other day, make the case that maybe we are living through a golden age now that people live in gold, the trenches never know it at the time. But we are questioning everything and kind of coming up with new forms, to-to respond to the basic requirements of human society that we are going to, we are going into the dawn of the information age, and that maybe people will look back on this kind of a great day. And my own, that was an intriguing possibility. But I would think that if we are in a golden age, we have had better art and its that thinking that maybe when the actual cultural history of this era of the last quarter 30 years of the, to get back into the (19)60s, the (19)60s, you know, really starting to 65 or so. And then and go well into the (19)70s Maybe the Beach Boys good vibrations will be what people go to hear 100 years from now or, or some kind of Jim Morrison in the door, come on baby light my fire, the long version will be seen as a as a crowning cultural achievement. And, yeah, we knew we had crummy literature and nobody could really write very well, but-but Star Wars will be remembered. The Star Wars trilogy will be remembered as the great epic of our, our time. 47:19 SM: I mean, notice how a lot of the (19)60 songs are now in oh, advertisements, including the chambers brothers time, time, which is a very big song back in the late (19)60s, time. 47:30 DB: What is amazing, and every hit movie, for a while there had to be built around some-some song, the soundtrack of lives that Stephen King movie about the kids, its all rock and roll songs. And Tom Cruise and fighter pilot movie is all built around that the righteous brothers, you have lost that loving feeling. And for while I think every single movie that came out was built around some (19)60s rock and roll song. And yeah. Look at that still going after all these years, the Beatles may not be our first not adding anything. But I am sure that so many more records since they broke up than they did. While they were all together. 48:22 SM: I am going to go double check to make sure that is still going overall. Yeah. Where would you describe the boomers as the most unique generation in American history? 48:32 DB: No, gosh, no, I certainly they were the most-most unique. I mean, there was nothing else like them. What do you mean by unique? 48:46 SM: They were so different from any other generation that they stand above the crowd, so to speak, and you look at all the generations since our founding fathers look through all the generations. There are people out there that say no, there was never a time like the (19)60s and (19)70s. Except that happened. 49:05 DB: I was going to say in terms of extraordinary generations, certainly the generation that lived through the Civil War must be up there. And the most amazing generation of Americans were the founding fathers, but he is just still fucking amazing. Now they know whether they that different from the generations that came before them are not unique. It was they were unique, in that sense. be something I would have to give more thought to. I do not know. They were a mutant generation. I am just going back to that idea of kind of forgetting the fact that being an American and having rights and responsibilities I do not think any other generation has done that. There was much in the (19)60s. It was like the 1920s, kind of in terms of indulgence, and the baby boomers coming of age rabbit gets rich in the (19)80s was rather than maybe women, really the decade of greed, very similar to the 1920s, I do not think I have a feeling for a history that would enable me to really compare them. In that way, we forget how extraordinary times we have all lived through, I mean, being on the frontier must have been this next generation, that is going to take us into the information age, I think they have a and the generation that took us through the progressive era at the end of the last century, which we really had to remake ourselves from agricultural to an industrial nation, from a nation of the little local economies into a national economy, just like now we have to go from national international, during our Roosevelt's generation, Theodore Roosevelt himself such an extraordinary individual, that it is hard to say, We have had times of wretched excess too. 51:35 SM: it is often quoted that only 15 percent of the Boomers were truly activists for the link civil rights, Vietnam or protest during lesbian youth movement, the environmental movement, and overall, being active in issues of the day was just another way to lessen the impact this group has had on Americans. 51:51 DB: Oh, I was thinking I mean, that was what I was referring to before the boomers are identified by that 15 percent. They are voting statistics are actually sort of surprising. But you know that those are the people who were activists who were I mean, they put their stamp on the generation, I think they are entitled to the credit for that. I mean, I think-I think that the- those 15 percent I think that is probably true of any generation, there is like 15 percent of them are activists. As I say, the unique thing about the unique thing, one of the unique things, something possibly you need to be careful that word. Was this splitting apart. And to elites, which function kind of independent. They thought they represented the rest of the nation, but they did not. The awful truth was the people who are going around yelling power to the people did not realize that the people already had power. And then the people were getting increasingly annoyed at the people who are going around yelling power to the people, you follow me. I mean, that was why they voted for Richard Nixon, including a lot of baby boomers. I wonder about the statistics which show but yeah, there were people who put there was an activist group that put a stamp on that generation, I think they are entitled to at least that letter. Whether I like what they did or not. I think any generation. 53:33 SM: Do you? Do you feel that the boomers are a generation that is still having problems with the healing? Veterans Memorial did a great job with veterans and in some respect for families and veterans? But do you feel that healing is really taking place in large numbers? And I am trying to getting at here is, you know, we see a lot of unsettled dialogue today in our society, shouting instead of listening, very little dialogue. And I am wondering if there is a direct correlation of that back to that era. It is-it is- 54:03 DB: But there is but I think it is television. Television is what destroyed dialogue. If you do not talk to television, you are spending six hours in front of the television, much- 54:16 SM: Do You think the computer age is going to continue that with your computer all day, you are not going to talk to anyone either. 54:22 DB: Well, I do not know. I mean, I know if you sit at your computer all day, you actually do pretty much nothing but talk to other people. I mean, that is what I do on my computer twice a day, pick up my email, send off messages. I mean, I have the sort of dream that because of email and computers, people will learn how to write again. That may be fanciful, or you know, even-even silly when especially when you look at some of the obscene crap. That is on the internet. But I, you know, funny things like that happen. I do not think though that chat rooms are really a substitute for human contact. If you want to want to know what, you did not really ask me what I expect, what was the question again? I do not want to wonder that far. 55:21 SM: Do you think here is, do you feel that boomers are a generation that is still having a prominent feeling? 55:26 DB: Oh, yeah. No, I think there is confused as ever. But I hope that there. I hope that we are starting to see in the current moment, you know, we are finally getting to the point where people are able to talk candidly about what the things are, that did not work and went wrong. I think that is Clinton's great contribution to American history is to somehow I mean, he really did get the political dialogue back to the real problems of real Americans and off of the symbolic stuff, which is the essence of the baby boom, slash television generation. The symbolism, soundbites. motional, ism sensationalism living for sensations. So, yeah, we are definitely still having a problem. I hope we are starting to do better. 56:31 SM: What are your thoughts about former left leaders who have been writing books recently about their involvement in the movement? Horowitz Rosen Collier wrote a book called the disrupter generation where they work to the extreme left, and now they are-they are analyzing themselves and saying, admitting to their wrongs and then basically condemning anybody else that was ever involved on the left. And we are seeing more and more books coming out that way. Those the left becoming basically conservatives. 57:07 DB: Right, I you know, I cited the destructive generation, we had that first conversation, I thought that was just a very, you know, that book just has a lot of truth telling in it. The class of (19)64 was another good book. I mean, I think you are right. Coming out and becoming conservatives, you are reminded about some famous person once said that anybody who, anyone under 30, who is a, who is not a liberal, does not have a heart, anyone over 30, who is not a conservative does not have a brain. And, and, you know, doubtedly, seeing that effect take place. And it is kind of I mean, I am a great believer in the pendulum theory of history, and that, you know, things had to swing back. But the question, you know, that I asked at the top of one of those columns that you put there is- is- there ever been a society that is really kind of swung so far into self-destructive behavior that has come so far? unfastened from its from its moral underpinnings and come back? I think that is the question. We are looking to find out the answer to that. What was your question? Again, I- 58:31 SM: Think the left leaders and the left leaders. 58:33 DB: Well, I think they did-did a lot of important truth telling and it had to be done. It was a dirty job, but they did it. I mean, I subscribed to Colliers. Horowitz and Colliers public publications. You know, I think sometimes they get a little bit. Neither, I mean, you have to allow them. I mean, quite often, they will go get a little spin a little bit out of control. But I think they have been very important. And- 59:06 SM: I know that you have already basically answered this question. I have to ask him directly. Again, it was boomers used to say they were going to change the world. In we were often quoted as being the that would change the world in a positive way. Was this true? Were they different? And in what way? Yeah, I have. 59:22 DB: The world has stayed pretty much the same. And what they had to discover is that there are reasons why the world is the way that there are reasons why families exist. And if you are going to stop having families, you better damn well, that some better system for working it out before you do it, and I think now they are coming back to that realization that if you are going to have successful politics, people have to participate. You have to have a dialogue. You have to talk things through they stopped doing I thought, well, we do not need to do that. We thought we already know what to do. I do not have to think about. 1:00:07 SM: How do you deal with this whole issue, though another characteristics oftentimes placed on boards that they are very- [oh, yeah] Dr. King did not he have the same philosophy. Because if you look at the civil rights movement, not to criticize Thurgood Marshall. But that was a more gradualist approach to the courts, as opposed to Dr. King's nonviolence, which was, I am tired of all the roadblocks we wanted. I want this now, we are not going to have any more of these roadblocks placed in our, in our face, to end racism, the society and to integrate society. And so do not you think the boomers had a lot of that same type of philosophy that they saw these roadblocks fully by the Bureaucracy. And, and thus, they became very impatient and basically took the line of advocate that civil disobedience, we are going to go to the streets. So, we are going to-we are not going to have these roadblocks anymore. We want to have- 1:01:02 DB: Like, I mean, what is the start of the question again? Let me try to respond to it because brought another thought to my mind. 1:01:11 SM: This whole issue that the boomers are an impatient group that they really want it now. And they use Dr. King is an example of that through his civil nonviolence, because except the Thurgood Marshall approach through the courts, he said he would not get into the streets. 1:01:29 SM: Well, you can hardly call the actions of Martin Luther King, precipitous or sudden or impatient. He was redressing wrongs that dated back 100 years if you want to count it that way. 300 years. And at that point, people, African Americans, black Americans, and I suppose Negroes or colored people. As Dr. King would have said had waited. 1:02:16 SM: This is a question dealing with just specific names and your individual response to these your gut level feelings about them as well. And maybe your also your perception of how we think boomers today, look at these people. They can be just short responses. Tom Hayden. 1:02:35 DB: Tom Hayden, replaced by Ted Turner. 1:02:45 SM: [laughs] Very Good. Any other comments? 1:02:47 DB: Oh, yeah, I guess one of the numbers of what, an example of one of the people who was who seemed to have a lot of promise that did not never, never really came off. And I could not tell you where he is today. 1:03:02 SM: The state legislator in Sacramento. I am surprised he is still an author. He is going to be at the Chicago convention as a delegate. And that is interesting, because in (19)68- 1:03:12 DB: He was outside. 1:03:13 SM: Lyndon Johnson. 1:03:16 DB: Oh, gosh. I should tell you what I think of Lyndon Johnson in 100 words or less Johnson is a tremendously complicated man and the Carroll biographies come close to perhaps they do not give him some of the credit he deserves. But he was me, he will always be hurt by the fact that people will be repelled by what a by his lack of ethics, lack of personal ethics. You basically had somebody with an amoral mentality. I have a friend named Ron Kessler wrote, it happened in the White House Science bestseller as reading lately, he is always say that the nation was really badly hurt by the fact that you had somebody who was basically a criminal, this President of the United States, and he has all this stuff about this incredible amount of White House stuffies, though, that you wanted to crisp short answer. You know, Lyndon Johnson, very complex, tremendous achievements in terms of the passage of the Civil Rights legislation. But basically, not anyone that is going to be looked back on as a great president. His personal failings were too profound. I will try to be short. 1:04:55 SM: Bobby Kennedy. 1:04:58 DB: Bobby Kennedy, you have a piece that I wrote there. I was in the hotel the night that he was shot that was one of the most was something I will never, I mean, it is just so profound, I almost cannot sum it up. Bobby Kennedy was the last political leader that might have held us together prevented the polarization. The most amazing thing I remember about him is later on doing a political story somewhere in East Texas around Lufkin. was actually a story out of Congressman. Corrupt Congressman. But in the course of the reporting there, I discovered that that a major portion of the Bobby Kennedy organization in that part of Texas had conned George Wallace. There was something about the continuation of the Kennedy Mystique, his own ability to communicate a vision of what America ought to be doing, that I think was real was powerful and that it could have held us together instead of that. That incredible period of polarization and splitting apart that we went through. 1:06:24 SM: Eugene McCarthy. 1:06:27 DB: Eugene McCarthy was thoroughly ordinary person who has kind of thrust into a role far bigger than he was capable of playing. 1:06:44 SM: George McGovern. 1:06:47 DB: I would say almost exactly the same thing about him. This man who just did not have a there was no center to it he. I have a lot of thoughts about that, because I used to actually teach a course based on the 1972 campaign put the McGovern's strategy in that was just get to be the farthest out on the left as possible. He did not really know what he was for. He has this famous $1,000 giveaway, he did not he never knew. He never really knew what he was for. He never had thought through. He was basically a weak and incompetent leader. And once campaign got to be a contest of competence versus incompetence he was done for. 1:07:50 SM: When people look at the liberals of today, they will say that man that comes to mind most George McGovern, because he stood by his liberal beliefs. 1:07:58 DB: I cannot remember a single thing that he believed in. Here is a candidate who managed to get himself, he projected so poorly, in terms of what he believed that he managed to get himself defined by his opposition as the candidate of the three a’s: abortion, acid and amnesty. Theodore White talks about that, and it is making me the president in 1972. And because he did not, you know, the whole the whole story of $1,000 giveaway you is because he just sat there and listened to these economists who just winged it and he said, he just kind of took some of the stuff they said seriously, and because he himself just had not thought things through. I mean, that was one thing that was different about Clinton was different about Carter that they either in Carter's case worked very hard to try to get to the bottom of things or just had a superior understanding of the way the world works than George McGovern did. 1:09:21 SM: Hughey Newton. 1:09: 24 DB: I think history has shown what kind of person Huey Newton was revealed. 1:09:31 SM: So did you also put in that category the bobby Seales and the Eldritch Cleavers? The Panthers too? 1:09:41 DB: Yeah, I think the but we have now seen I mean, you shall know them by their fruits. I think if you look at what became of all of them the truth has emerged. 1:09:59 SM: Jerry Rubin and Abby Hoffman. 1:10:02 DB: They were opportunistic, imposters. People you know the there are people who actually change events and they are people who were kind of thrown up like froth off the top of Wave. And Hoffman and Reuben were in the latter category. 1:10:25 SM: Timothy Leary. 1:10:28 DB: Timothy Leary was an interesting guy who kind of typifies what went wrong. The fact that somebody of his stature and ability would actually say that what young people should do is what Amis favorite tune their turn, turn on drop out? I mean, that along with if it feels good, do it? Where are the statements that characterize the era? I mean, I think he can be seen as a major, major influence on what basically became a malignant movement. 1:11:15 SM: How about Daniel Ellsberg. 1:11:18 DB: Daniel Ellsberg just, again, somebody who happened to be in a certain place at a certain time and was not particularly important before or since. 1:11:32 SM: Ralph Nader. 1:11:36 DB: Well, I mean, I think everybody has to have a certain amount of respect for Ralph Nader. And some extent is [inaudible] in his belief in the powers of litigation, have worn, have gotten to be a little bit annoying over time. I do not believe he will be effective this year as the Green Party candidate. If I have to say one thing about him is kind of an archetypal example of somebody who loved humankind, but you would not really want to be around personally for very long. 1:12:23 SM: How about Dr. Benjamin Spock? 1:12:26 DB: Well, Dr. Spock finally admitted that he did it wrong. He will be much paid attention to as a wonderful final book, and perhaps he is still alive. Yes. But he wrote a book, say basically taking it all back. I looked through the book jacket, and I did not actually get it to read it. [audio cuts] Great, you have to give him credit for that. But he also is, he also has a lot of a lot to be the answer for and he has answered. I mean, I think I would, I would take his own judgement of himself. At this point. 1:13:15 SM: Hubert Humphrey. 1:13:16 DB: Hubert Humphrey. Alright. It is one of the most well-meaning and misguided figures in American history. Misguided and star-crossed. 1:13:31 SM: John Kennedy. 1:13:33 DB: Oh, gosh. Difficult to cope with what we have to prove what we know about John Kennedy today. And yeah, there is aspects of his personal behavior affects [audio cuts] his personal behavior. We are surely reprehensible. Were absolutely reprehensible. Yet there is no question but in terms of style grace under pressure, eloquence. He has set a standard that American presidents will, presidential candidates will be measured against for the rest of my life. 1:14:25 SM: Martin Luther King Jr. 1:14:27 DB: Well, true hero. But whose contribution almost cannot be underestimated? Whose brain still sets the standard for what America should aspire to? It is amazing to think that the highlight of the opening ceremonies to me would be the clip of the King's Speech. The opening ceremonies at the Atlanta Olympics. And here that was 1964, (19)74, (19)84, (19)94. More than 30 years later to think that his words and his vision still carry such strength, meaning is amazing. 1:15:29 SM: Berrigan Brothers. 1:15:30 DB: Minor character Hello, [audio cuts] Gavin the Olympics bring him to mind. He was the only figure that could bring together the white antiwar movement and the civil rights movement. He was the unique figure is way beyond his athletic accomplishments. And I mean, not surprising or unworthy. That he would be at one point, at least the most recognized person in the world. 1:16:13 SM: He still is. 1:16:17 DB: And I think it was it was that fact that he really did seem to stand for so much during that time. And it is amazing. Just an amazing figure. 1:16:37 SM: George Wallace. 1:16:47 DB: [chuckles] George Wallace was a fascinating figure far more articulate and, in his criticism, of big government. That whole area is so complicated, I mean, to think of him as the man stood in the University of Alabama door to block the entrance of black students and yet he started off as a kind of liberal politician and then was beaten, said he would never be up Niggered again. I remember him as just being and under an underappreciated articulator of some basic American call them populist, but maybe even more profound than the label with indicate ideas. You want short sharply, right. I can still remember him speaking at Dartmouth College in 1964. He made this tour of campuses, they just went to Harvard went to Dartmouth he went to in the Northeast, and people just being stunned at his articulate [inaudible] and humor. Still remember things that he said? We down here in Alabama, do not believe that everything that comes from Washington is heaven sent. This line about the bureaucrats that could not park their bicycle straight, and that he did not believe that all juvenile criminals had gotten that way because their daddy did not take them to see the Orioles play. And he-he was an incredibly powerful speaker. When he came back again about four years later, it triggered a riot. They rocked his car and but people did not know what to expect when they went there in (19)64 were amazed that this guy they expected to be a room and a bumpkin could speak with such authority and he was he was drawing on much more than racism and should be remembered for that. 1:19:11 SM: Jane Fonda. 1:19:12 DB: Changed, the thing I always say, I got to get shorter because you know, the thing I remember most about Jane Fonda was her first husband who directed her in Barbarella explaining how their marriage had come apart, saying I simply did not want to be married to the American Joan of Arc. That is the only thing I can remember that might add to what others would say. 1:19:46 SM: Robert McNamara. 1:19:47 DB: Robert McNamara when I was a cog in a wheel I did not read this book. It is good a very good book. I remember him as somebody who set out to be the best secretary of defense he could be. Right remember about him was his idea that the army could be the thing the army did best was education. And it could become a vehicle for bringing kids out of the terrible schools in the inner cities, giving them an education and an opportunity. And then how ironic it was, that the army he created would become, although it would do that, it would become the institution in our society that was most effectively, racially integrated, would be remembered as being the institution that just so unfairly sent so many young black Americans to their deaths in Vietnam. There is such an irony involved there it is so complex. I mean, it is so terrible all of the he made mistakes, a terrible mistake. And yet, there is that other irony that we would not know about them. If he had not had the sense of his own role and history to make sure that they were recorded in the study. Who would come back and answer for them in book late in life? kind of remarkable. 1:21:39 SM: Gerald Ford. 1:21:40 DB: Gerald Ford was a thoroughly decent, honest guy. But not, did not have the makings of greatness. 1:21:52 SM: Richard Nixon. 1:21:55 DB: [chuckles] short, sharp answer. Yeah, Richard Nixon was Richard Nixon was it was really an enigma who I do not pretend to have any special insight into. Watergate was awful. And, you know, I mean, another thing that contributed to the moral smugness of the baby boomers. You know, as I suggested before, that the wretched excesses of Watergate we are in their way, and sort of equal and opposite reaction to the wretched excesses of the left. I do not have anything to add to all the other things that have been said about what an enigmatic guy was. 1:22:44 SM: How about Spiro Agnew? 1:22:46 DB: Spiro Agnew is a small, corrupt, dirty little politician, by accident of fate, ended up briefly in the spotlight and has since slumped back to the level of which is appropriate, which so far as I know is total oblivion. 1:23:08 SM: How about Barry Goldwater? 1:23:10 DB: Barry Goldwater was a man who stood the test of time. Even people who did not like him always thought that he was a decent, intelligent man. There is that irony that I talked about before, that the nation would seem to so completely renounce his philosophy of excess being a virtue and moderation being a sin. Yet ultimately, that came to be the hallmark of the generation that so many things that you remember about him? If he was a good, honest, interesting guy, the reporters that covered them used of respect him. I do not think any of them voted for him. And- 1:24:07 SM: How about John Dean and John Mitchell? 1:24:10 DB: Oh, other people who are just-just in the spotlight of history, more or less by accident. Do not think Tom Mitchell was a villain. Nor was John Dean a hero. 1:24:31 SM: Sam Ervin. 1:24:32 DB: Sam Ervin was the person who was given his role and accomplished it certainly gave us faith in the he gave us back some faith in the American political system press more than he should have. He was not that great person. But I think the Watergate hearings did establish the idea that we were capable to a remarkable degree, if not entirely, examining ourselves looking at our shortcomings. 1:25:09 SM: And Gloria Steinem. 1:25:11 DB: Gloria Steinem, I have trouble remembering anything that Gloria Steinem did as such- 1:25:21 SM: [audio cuts) money was a big factor. 1:25:24 DB: I guess I knew that it seems to have gotten so involved and you know, sort of the-the self-fulfillment movement I think her name will always be remembered and, and that many people will have the problem I am having right now that says, we will have a great difficulty remembering just exactly what for. 1:25:58 SM: And musicians of the year of Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, those- 1:26:03 DB: They will live forever No. They were the one unmitigated triumph of the (19)60s generation. 1:26:17 SM: Do you feel this is just a personal question? Do you feel that you have made an impact on American society? now, since being asked that has been asked to all the participants, including some Vietnam veteran, they know in Philadelphia and Senator McCarthy and Senator McGovern. And as a follow up, do you feel you would have made a positive impact in your life on the boomers and this current generation on generation? 1:26:43 DB: [audio cuts] Hello [audio cuts]. If I have, it has been very modest. [audio cuts] Your records more than Oh, that would be the only way I would have any effect. 1:27:00 SM: On the generation gap in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, and the generation gap and two cents on today. 1:27:05 DB: [audio cuts] was there. I do not think I have any really profound insights to offer on that, and not that I have on any of the other things. I did not feel there was a gap between myself and my parents. They are not a baby boomer do not feel I feel I am pretty close to my own son is 25, which makes him a generation Xer. But we have never talked about how he feels about baby boomers. So, I do not I just do not do not have a good sense of that all I know, all I know, is really derivative, what I have read from other people, I do not have a firsthand grasp of that. 1:28:06 SM: What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation? 1:28:11 DB: I hope that the lasting legacy of the boomer generation will be a realization that all of the things they trampled on and tore down. By forcing us to learn the process all over again. That they will renew it sort of the way every once in a while forest has to be burned. 1:28:47 SM: Again, and this Might be repetitive, but what role at many does activism in the boomer generation penetrating the lives of- 1:28:52 DB: None that I can detect And of course, I had that question about you know, to what extent the activism was apparent and what he said was real. 1:29:11 SM: If it is possible to heal within a generation now this week, this is a little different than the previous to heal. Do You think it is possible to heal within a generation where differences and spiritual assistance healing process should we cater and is it feasible? 1:29:25 DB: Well, say that again. 1:29:31 SM: Do you think it is possible to heal within a generation where differences and positions take within- 1:29:37 DB: A generation of time or to heal within the baby boomers? 1:29:41 SM: The Vietnam veterans coming back the divisions between those with protests or heads many of our trans remember that scene in New York City. Where not all they were not all when they were younger hardhats on the front of where it was in New York. The divisions are still obviously there. Do you think it is possible to heal within a generation we are different systems decision to assist in the healing process should be cured as a peaceful? I want to follow this up for example, during my many trips to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington I have been and I have really had a cute year to what I have been hearing a lot of pictures for example, the most portrait that I have man standing at the wall with a jacket on with-with an artificial arm and an artificial leg. And a denim jacket with a big Sanjana Jane Fonda bitch. And, and then hearing in the front row with the last Memorial were for Vietnam veterans did not want to listen to Peter net, because he was the one of the reporters that said bad things about Vietnam veterans, one of the early reporters. So they were there, but they had no respect for him. Even though he-he accepted the invitation Jana scrubs to be there. And certainly, that the dislike of Bill Clinton, which is so ever present amongst all the veterans that I have talked to, I do not care if they are liberal or conservative, everyone I have interviewed so far, and even just to my observations at the wall, is that they just do not like. 1:31:06 DB: Alright, I wonder if it was actually reflected in? So, it is an eroding statistic. The? Well, I think that I think it is, it might be possible to bring about healing within a generation. In fact, you would expect that it would be taking place, it is kind of surprising that there has been so little of it. And I think that reflects the fact that not the divisions were so why certainly the divisions were as nothing compared to the divisions in the Civil War generation, or even the-the American Revolution generation were supposedly created. John Adams, you had a third of the people who were for independence, the third were for staying with England and the third who did not much care. The what has been lost are the mechanisms for healing or reconciliation, we do not have the mechanisms for civic dialogue. We do not have civil societies, everyone is now seen. And so, we do not have any place that we can go and talk about this. We do not have the civic institutions. They do not have that sense of participation in, in civic and cultural and political organizations that might allow the kind of dialogue and healing to take place. It is all taking place in the mass media, and I suppose it has had some success. But I am not optimistic. I think these people will still be fighting over it and over shuffleboard in their retirement house. But it is- 1:32:51 SM: What is interesting is that the Vietnam Veterans Memorial was built to heal amongst the Vietnam veterans and their families and a chance for injury. Yet you still see the political attitudes at the wall at these ceremonies. And it is amazing. I was I was really under pressure in the Vietnam veterans a large number were truly starting to heal. And then I, but then I see [audio cuts] 1:33:24 DB: Yep. 1:33:25 SM: Your comments are interesting. 1:33:28 SM: I just wanted to mention, too, that when we went to see Senator, students to Washington, we met him about two and a half years ago, he had something comparable departments and gym shaking, but his mind was still sharp. And we had two hours with him. And did most of students had never met him, most of them and had not even heard him until they had an opportunity to meet him and read his Vita. But the one question that I asked, which brought tears to his eyes, was the question about the inability of the talking about the (19)68 Convention. The trend is divisions in America at that time, and, and the inability of a lot of boomers like myself to have to who still had this trust toward people of authority based on those times. And I thought he was just going to respond about the (19)60s and then he did a melodramatic pause. Then tears are brought to his eyes, the students are all looking at each other. I was looking at the students. And then finally he opened up and he said, I was in the hospital at that time. Looking at the Civil War, I was very sick for a while looking at the Ken Burns Civil War videos to the Secretary of State and when he was in the hospital, and he said, we have a meal since the Civil War. And so, he said for us to start talking about the (19)60s that we really had to divide America into two eras before and after the Civil War. And that was very revealing, because the Senate's clear message to the students in that room. That Civil War generation went to their graves without healing with all the Problems of reconstruction here, according to Disney, and that are is the boomer generation of Vietnam veterans on the protests of the war, the 15 percent, who are activist, some are playing the games, some who did not stay 85 percent of this were supposedly, they were not in the file, but maybe have it in their subconscious, but they take their kids to the wall. So the kids say Dad what did you do in the war. And they did not go or whatever, that there was a tremendous market. And they have made the boomer will go to their grave with [inaudible]- 1:35:33 DB: Oh, well, I think that is absolutely true. I think the Vietnam I mean, the War Memorial, just tremendously moving and effective. Memorial. I do not think anybody goes there without feeling the sense of loss and sacrifice, and courage and bravery that was involved and played there added those figures of the people, the guy was 1000 yards, there, and so on. But I think the only hope is that the context will change. We actually check to see whether-whether Vietnam vets really vote in a block against Clinton. 1:36:21 SM: I do not know, I do know one thing in my I get to know her a little bit. Not well, phone conversations that we took students to watch. And he wrote the book, the prize winning book. Fortunately, if you have not read that book, the best written books ever written. He was hired by George Mason University to teach writing, he knew how to write was a skill that very few people had, at my understanding. He was writing essays that are carried were designed to kill themselves. He was halfway through it. But the one the one thing is that Vietnam veteran supported Bill Clinton, up until the fall of (19)93, in the spring of (19)94, and he killed himself may have a war but-but then in this in February of (19)94, something happened between love of Vietnam veterans and build one another. They say flip flopped on certain issues. And he was very bitter, and then the obituary and some of the people talked about, he wanted to become the first ambassador of Vietnam, what was the goal is to become a personal masterpiece. He was very daring to go to Vietnam to visit with some of the veterans over there to try to help them and in certain ways, so but something happened, I do not know. And I probably not investigated further. I think there is there was some sort of a break between the Vietnam Veterans and Bill Clinton in that period in 1994, the spring and I do not think it is healed because I went to the Vietnam Memorial. Veterans Day ceremony this past November and tap CEOs and corporations are really bad mouthing bills in public. And we are bad mouthing the government and some of the things. So, there are some very serious divisions now between Bill Clinton and the Vietnam Veterans and I but I do not understand why. I do not understand what is going on behind the scenes. 1:38:19 DB: Yeah, I wonder if a lot of people it is fair to Vietnam just have no connection with that. They are certainly not part of did not join veterans’ organizations are not. I, I only know one Vietnam veteran. And he was a public relations guy for-for infantry. Even I believe that there are only two Vietnam veterans that work for the Philadelphia Inquirer. I think the one thing that is really wrong in that movie is that courage under fire. Is this idea that there is some old combat veteran working for The Washington Post. I do not think there is any. I bet he checked. If you could change something you wanted to go into, Rob, that there is no combat veteran from Vietnam working for The Washington Post banquet, there might only be a handful of people who have served anywhere at all. And that was one of the things that has-that has happened. We really volunteer army and so on. The Army has become a sort of a foreign experience used to be one of the rites of passage. And that ended in the boomer era. We have not I mean, we lost the all of the things that define maturity. From the time when you had to start wearing a tie to the office or working in a farm of some kind. 1:40:01 SM: Do you think that we will ever have trust for elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate and Uber's. Distrust, what effect is this having on the current generation of youth? 1:40:13 DB: That is a tough question. I mean, I think we have trust for some leaders and do not have trust for others. I think I like to think that the political process, at least at the presidential level is reconnecting. And we saw it in 1992, we will see more of it 1996. Although 1996 may end up just being a putting out election. I am not good at predicting the future, by the way. I have had a few lucky guesses, but I do not know what is going to happen next. But yeah, we have to get back to trusting our leader. If we do not, we are sunk. So, it is really asking the question whether the American experiment democracy will continue or not. And I have to believe that will. But that is part a leap of faith. 1:41:15 SM: Is still running. Yep. Yeah, please, I apologize. Some of these questions are repetitive, but I direct. How did they use it (19)60s and early (19)70s changed your life and the attitude towards that future generations? Did they have any effect on your life? 1:41:42 DB: Yeah, there is a great tendency for them, for me, for them to make me cynical. So many examples of good intentions gone awry. Which is a theme of Kurt Vonnegut's books ended up being big [audio cuts] 1:42:04 SM: Are there examples of events or activities, major cynical, or just the whole game? 1:42:12 DB: Yeah. Let us see. Let me see if I can at least pick out one. Hello, I think the one area that I have concentrated would concentrate on and I mean, I think it takes place with across the spectrum. I gave some examples earlier. And everything from trying to deal with urban poverty dealing with urban problems. But most profoundly we see it in education, where you have had all of these well-meaning quotes unquote, reforms that have had the net effect of diluting and making our education less effective. At a time when we needed more than ever. How many people who thought they were doing something good, and then having a disastrous effect? Open classrooms, the new math, social promotions, the dumbing down of the curriculum, the IT erosion of standards, grade inflation, all things done by people with proof that the road to hell probably is paved with good intentions. And you have to go back and undo it. Or the point of it that anecdote, I started on way, way back about the guy who wrote the book Physics for poets and is involved in the in the Chicago Public Schools is that we can very quickly destroy an institution, it takes a long time to build it back. I guess the people feeling that they were doing the right thing by achieving self-fulfillment in their own lives and wrecking the lives of their children. end up just shaking your head. Santa's amazement. 1:44:13 SM: Great history books are written on the growing up years from the boomers saying 25 to 50 years and I am ensuring those people do not major in undergrad program, the higher ed in graduate school. We were always taught best issued books were probably issued 50 years after events take place from best books on World War Two right now are being written today. As opposed to some books written by James McGregor burns, really? When the history books are written on the growing up years for the overseeing 2550 years from now what will be the overall evaluation of the boomers? Because of the booming right now are, Well, I do not get into this category of making (19)46 to (19)64 because sometimes those people born between (19)46 and (19)56 in the late (19)50s and early (19)60s. We got a couple of people in West Chester that I just have a hard time relate to. They are still categorized as boomers, but they had no sense of what transpired back then. 1:45:09 DB: Not only that they resent the older boomers. I think your divisions probably are better. What will History Think? 1:45:22 SM: Yeah especially some of them are just coming into power now. So- 1:45:25 DB: I am sad to say that I am not good at progress. prognosticating history, I do not think there is any way I would just stick with I have gotten really fond of this analogy with the baby boomers were like a fire that had to burn through and clean things happen. So the new growth could occur. 1:45:55 SM: [audio cuts] And last question, is this. The youth of that period of belief, they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)50s (19)60s and (19)70s. Vietnam policy, the draft civil rights legislation, nonviolent protests, multiple months, in other words, a sense of empowering, why is society resisting this today? And why in your words, are the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society? And in some respects, less desire to seemingly less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this question? 1:46:30 DB: I think the problem is they turned out to be wrong. So many of them are going back with things like education what are the policies we look at? They thought they could solve poverty in the city, and they could not be now undoing the things that they tried to do to try something else. And we are going to do it with a great deal of trepidation and not going to do it, that same sense of we can change the world. And we will probably do it better. You looked at all the things that they tried to do look at things that, for example, that the baby boomer era created, whether as baby boomers did it or not, they have to reflect a lot longer, maybe even look some stuff up. But questioning whether affirmative action was the way to eradicate racism. Because we have discovered that in many cases, and it is hard to weigh the case in which it does good in the cases in which it does bad. It is exacerbated by the fact that the welfare system that we tried to create did not free people from a downward spiral. Or it did not pre bring people back up, and instead seems to launch them into a multi-generational downward spiral into which situation seems increasingly dire, which we now feel when you come right down to it, but we have too many people in America now that cannot do anything that anybody would pay them the minimum wage for, and that the system is creating more of them. What was question again? I got a little lost. 1:48:26 SM: What was the impact of the Boomers have had and they felt they could change? 1:48:37 DB: They felt they could change the world. And they were wrong. And so, people are kind of stepping out onto the charred ground, it has been left very cautiously and carefully and tried to rebuild something there that will pay more attention to the laws of unintended consequence. And things like- 1:48:59 SM: Do you feel that there is a direct correlation. I went back to the question earlier that the reason why Generation X youth or young adults cannot get involved is because of the examples that have been set by their parents. Whether it be over the kitchen table, or just by observation. 1:49:23 DB: I once again have to take myself out of that, because I did not see that. I do not know. I mean, I go to see a movie like Reality Bites are clueless or whatever. And I do not understand. I do not know what happened. I do not know why those people are the way they are. I do not know if it is a reaction to their parents. I tend to think it is because our whole society lost the ability to transmit its values. And I hope we are getting it back. But this whole the whole lack of knowledge and interest on the part of this generation is-is really appalling. And people are always trying to figure out ways to make excuses for it. I expected to be some kind of, you know, the fireman talks about a back blast when they go into a fire and the fire has gone in a certain direction for a long time. And it gets to be a, an area behind the vacuum, and then suddenly things blast pack into it. I expect we are going to see something like that. And it is going to happen, particularly in regard. I think we already see it happening in regard to spiritual values, kind of so many of these questions you bring up, you could spend an entire chapter on the boomer generation holds up as the great example of what it what was accomplished. It holds up the civil rights revolution as a great example of what can be accomplished, and yet rejects the central religious core of that movement. At least its activists. It is the least as I say, somehow, rather America just continues to be the most religious country in the world. This kind of goes on like some something underwater, a big iceberg underwater. So, you cannot say we have lost that. 1:51:33 SM: I do believe this church attendance was down from like, when-when I was getting the link with the church every Sunday and Sunday school was over. But as I got older, myself, I did not go to church anymore. And a lot of my peers get caught up into that, too. And I am kind of wondering, it was not like the (19)50s. It is fascinating. 1:51:56 DB” I mean, this sort of was my impression, but I am told that if you would look at Gallup Poll asked people what percentage 40 percent went to church, or synagogue last night went to religious services in the previous week, and it is just tasting exactly the same. Just like there is another America out there as we connect with it. Just kind of goes on. 1:52:24 SM: Person in my position to work with student’s day in and day out. And I work with a lot of faculty to work. Frustrated that today's college students love it, they have faith in them, it is not they do not have faith, have you always had faith in young people, you always give them the benefit of the doubt. And but that does not mean that they cannot be constructively criticize the time. And that is that they do not have a sense of history. They, they do not do much reading, they do not really want to understand the past. They only want to deal with the present and really care about the future. But the sense of history and a lot of a boomer faculty, they do not get frustrated with some of their students on some occasion and they go back to when they were asked. And because of those times, we questioned faculty members in the classroom. It was highly interactive, faculty were in the residence halls at that time, there was a linkage between the faculty and then now faculty members do not seem to be linked to students at all. It is I do not know I am trying to get at here and it is somewhat frustrating his friends, absolutely baffling try to see we are trying to see the image of today's students as we were in some respects and that is to challenge a lot of these young people in my opinion do not challenge the system. 1:53:44 DB: But I can tell you that is my impression as well. Correct me even to my-my-my son, his friends. I gave his girlfriend 20 bucks she would she said you know we are reading all these plays and they are just such crap. So why do not you say anything that you say challenge professors. You know, I think this stuff is just by eliminating all the ambiguity and it has come so close to some sort of quasi pornography. Brit modern British theatre, modern British drama. And this is why you might want to get an A and I am already I have a 3.78 grade average and I am getting turned down for interviews because they want people put their grade average I will give you 20 bucks if you stand up and just say one thing because I want to see if anybody else stands up and says the same thing. I want to see what Professor react and nobody joined here, except the one or two students she already knew felt that way. And professor’s kind of matter of fact in class but then when she went into took discuss her paper with women, he reduced her to tears and I think it was educational to do that. 1:55:05 SM: David Are there any other final comments you would like to say? 1:55:14 DB: No, I want to thank you very much for participating in private. No, I think I have had a chance to say pretty much everyone thought that I did not get in, you know, there was a feeling that to some extent, the assassinations, just cauterize everybody's nerve endings, that people did not feel things is profoundly anymore. That you after you have been through the death of John Kennedy, the assassination of Robert did the assassination of John Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, Martin Luther King, you-you got to be afraid to hope. And that was another thing that went on was that had a big effect? Hard, hard cremation. 1:56:00 SM: Could you? Just everyone out there? Were you waiting in the room for Bobby Kennedy to go through the pantry there? Because there was no more he made the announcement he told to another group. What does duh. Yes, that is exactly right. There were two ballrooms or four people in each spoke, I think the people who were I do not know how they separate. I think the people the first group were kind of more insiders, although my wife was a precinct cabinet for the time. And we were in the lower ballroom or, and he was going to the pantry to come down there. And it did not come and I just wandered out into the hall. And there were people in the rooms down the hall or watching the whole proceedings on television and went into one and there was a woman just keeled over. She had fallen over in a chair and sobbing uncontrollably. And there was great disturbance and discombobulation in the room. I thought it was over this woman who, you know, is having some perhaps some kind of epileptic fit or diabetic shock. But it was all because they just heard that shot over the television. We did not know it in the big room because televisions were off because he was going to come and speak. But the ambassador just after that, I mean, in that piece I gave you my wife said, you know, part of me died with him. And you guys never she was never able to do enthusiastically support anybody. 1:57:49 SM I have [audio cuts] Many times and I have gone to that spot. 1:57:52 DB: And neither was I- 1:57:55 SM: White crosses there in Arlington. 1:57:57 DB: Well, yeah, it makes me sad though, because the kids that come there, they do not seem to have the same appreciation. I interviewed the guard there. Something like fussy has working to the post from (19)69 to (19)72. Watching. Yeah. So over I have been there for and I remember him today, the kids now they just do not. They do not have they do not understand. And he started to cry. [inaudible] (19)63. So it was not the tenth. 1:58:29 SM: If he gets enough in here to regarding the heroes, that maybe they had heroes, they looked up to sometimes Europe may not be the right word. Think they looked up to John Kennedy, Martin Luther King and some of the other civil rights leaders to like a young man in Java who was other politicians too, that were run. Today, again, it is just a sense that I have there are no people that go for their parents, sometimes I it is interesting. I have had some interviews with students. We interviewed students for positions on our campus within our nations, and specifically asked them who their heroes are. And I thought [inaudible] majority are my sister, me and my upbringing. And my parents divorced. My-my parents, my mom and dad, they may not be both, but it may be one of them. So I find that interesting. And again, this is only about 30 or 40 students. Commentaries, but you never hear oh my heroes Martin Luther King, my hero was John Kennedy, my hero or any of the current leaders. It is just amazing. 1:59:45 DB: Yeah, as an as an editor, I tried to bring back the idea of Return of the hero. I remember back they still have the Lone Ranger on the cover. And inside the head stories that people were getting ready to go to look at heroes, again, Movie Star Wars to come out and set those turning points. But it really has not. I saw US News and World Report tried to do the same article five, five years ago or so. And turned out that heroes, they turned out to be entertainment figures, people who portrayed somebody else. And somebody talking about that was saying so amazing that when they have when they were having hearings in Washington on foreign problems that one of the people had bring in a sissy space because he was in whatever movie that was about the trouble on the farm the fact that we do not have heroes. It is really, really important. 2:00:49 SM: Joe McGuiness wrote a book about [inaudible] Did you read that book? 2:00:53 DB: Yeah. 2:00:55 SM: Talking about Teddy Kennedy segment and we are trying to get through to them for a long time. Bear with me here. [audio cuts] (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Boldt Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boldt, David ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Editors; Journalists; Awards—United States; Three Mile Island Nuclear Power Plant (Pa.); Iran—History—Revolution, 1979; Boldt, David--Interviews Description An account of the resource David Boldt was editor of the editorial page of <em>The Philadelphia Inquirer</em> and a political columnist for the same paper during the 1980's and 1990's. Boldt won the Pulitzer Prize as a member of the <em>Inquirer</em>'s team that covered a nuclear accident at the Three Mile Island electrical power plant, and received a citation for excellence from the Overseas Press Club for his reporting on the Islamic Revolution in Iran. Boldt has taught undergraduate and graduate courses in interpreting contemporary affairs as an adjunct professor at Temple University in Philadelphia. He earned a bachelor's degree in History from Darthmouth College. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.23a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.23b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 121:15 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5781dc81c746e671dd6a48210cd1b6a9.jpg 29d4ab8a488ac75e89c11c8355beed34 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2b7be8e337d2094696aa1f32692240b6.mp3 da7f47f783aa92f14aae48ec6b888eaa Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Julian Bond, 1940-2015 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Julian Horace Bond (1940 - 2015) was a social activist and leader in the civil rights movement, politician, poet, educator and author. He attended Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. Bond is best known for his fight to take his duly elected seat in the Georgia House of Representatives. He later served as the head of the Southern Poverty Law Center and the NAACP. Bond died in 2015 at his home in Fort Walton Beach, Florida after a brief illness.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Julian Horace Bond (1940 - 2015) was a social activist and leader in the civil rights movement, politician, poet, educator, and author. He attended Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. Bond is best known for his fight to take his duly elected seat in the Georgia House of Representatives. He later served as the head of the Southern Poverty Law Center and the NAACP. Bond died in 2015 at his home in Fort Walton Beach, Florida after a brief illness.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Women's Rights Movement; Activism; Public education; Vietnam War; Race; University Campuses; Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X, Robert Kennedy; John Kennedy; Hubert Humphrey; George McGovern; Muhammad Ali; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; Gerald Ford; Angela Davis; Affirmative Action; Individualism; Tolerance; Cooperative Action; Healing; Vietnam Memorial&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:2,&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Baby boom generation; Women's Rights Movement; Activism; Public education; Vietnam War; Race; University Campuses; Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Robert Kennedy; John Kennedy; Hubert Humphrey; George McGovern; Muhammad Ali; Richard Nixon; Spiro Agnew; Gerald Ford; Angela Davis; Affirmative Action; Individualism; Tolerance; Cooperative Action; Healing; Vietnam Memorial</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 99:33 Subject LCSH African American politicians--United States; Political activists--United States; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Bond, Julian, 1940-2015--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Julian Horace Bond Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bond, Julian, 1940-2015 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource African American politicians--United States; Political activists--United States; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Bond, Julian, 1940-2015--Interviews Description An account of the resource Julian Horace Bond (1940 - 2015) was a social activist and leader in the Civil Rights Movement, politician, poet, educator and author. He attended Morehouse College in Atlanta, Georgia. Bond is best known for his fight to take his duly elected seat in the Georgia House of Representatives. He later served as the head of the Southern Poverty Law Center and the NAACP. Bond died in 2015 at his home in Fort Walton Beach, Florida after a brief illness. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.24a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.24b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 99:33 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c8a26e36a3d81d74052308df92cd6dc7.jpg 0f942b97df33d1268c9b7d885f62fd89 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/838c25478b6228e7b5b6064273c46cf5.mp3 7c04cf1246368ddca0af8868f429f278 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-02-25 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Malcolm Boyd, 1923-2015 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam war which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15235,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16777215},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:4995385},&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author, and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam War, which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. </span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Freedom Rides; Martin Luther King Jr.; Jonathan Daniels; Civil Rights Movement; Arlington National Cemetery; Common Cause; Baby boom generation; Healing; Veterans; 1960s; Black Power; Weathermen; Kent State; Jackson State; Spiritualism; The Beatles; Stonewall; Harvey Milk; Legacy of Slavery; Sexuality; AIDS epidemic; John F. Kennedy; Robert Kennedy; Jackson State; Richard Nixon; Watergate; Woodstock; Summer of Love; Counterculture; Hippies; Yippies; Drug Culture; Black Panthers; Weathermen&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:2,&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Freedom Rides; Martin Luther King Jr.; Jonathan Daniels; Civil Rights Movement; Arlington National Cemetery; Common Cause; Baby boom generation; Healing; Veterans; 1960s; Black Power; Weathermen; Kent State; Jackson State; Spiritualism; The Beatles; Stonewall; Harvey Milk; Legacy of Slavery; Sexuality; AIDS epidemic; John F. Kennedy; Robert Kennedy; Jackson State; Richard Nixon; Watergate; Woodstock; Summer of Love; Counterculture; Hippies; Yippies; Drug Culture; Black Panthers</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 88:43 Subject LCSH Episcopal Church; Clergy; Political activists--United States; Authors; Boyd, Malcolm, 1923-2015 Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Malcolm Boyd Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Boyd, Malcolm, 1923-2015 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Episcopal Church; Clergy; Political activists--United States; Authors; Boyd, Malcolm, 1923-2015 Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam war which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15235,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:16777215},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:4995385},&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Malcolm Boyd (June 8, 1923 – February 27, 2015) was an Episcopal Priest, author, and activist for many social constructs such as racism, religion, and war. He was one of the first priests to go public about his homosexuality. He was very involved in the Civil Rights Movement and rallied against the Vietnam War, which made him a national champion among others. After being open about his homosexuality, he wrote a book about his journey and fought successfully for women and homosexuals in the Episcopal church. He graduated from the Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. </span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.26 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 88:43 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b409047bd25e39ebfee668a60d4bd2cc.jpg 15fa0a9bcb8248c08db4ac888fee643a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c2beb946c436e4810a4bf3d4d3fbda76.mp3 f5adf7042a340e92cd35fcad79d644c6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-06-17 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Susan Brownmiller Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Susan Brownmiller is a feminist activist and author. During the Feminist Movement, she was a writer at ABC-TV. When she saw how much power women have, she began to write about abortion rights. She has written and published books that highlight the hardships women face and how they came to be. She attended Cornell University and studied Acting in New York City.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:6531,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Susan Brownmiller is a feminist activist and author. During the Feminist Movement, she was a writer at ABC-TV. When she saw how much power women have, she began to write about abortion rights. She has written and published books that highlight the hardships women face and how they came to be. She attended Cornell University and studied Acting in New York City.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Voter registration; Black Panthers; Black Power; Gay rights; Environmental movement; Sexual revolution; Hugh Hefner; Women's issues; Abortion; Feminists; Women's studies; Antifeminists; Newt Gingrich; Equal Rights Amendment; Civil Rights Movement; Communist Party; Montgomery Boy Boycott; Tallahassee Bus Boycott; Drug culture&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:14281427}}">Voter registration; Black Panthers; Black Power; Gay rights; Environmental movement; Sexual revolution; Hugh Hefner; Women's issues; Abortion; Feminists; Women's studies; Antifeminists; Newt Gingrich; Equal Rights Amendment; Civil Rights Movement; Communist Party; Montgomery Boy Boycott; Tallahassee Bus Boycott; Drug culture</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 94:01 Subject LCSH Feminists; Authors; Brownmiller, Susan--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Susan Brownmiller Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 17 June 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): Ready? [inaudible] somebody recorded too. SB (00:00:07): Here we go. I keep checking this because... SM (00:00:10): I know. I know that anxiety very well. SB (00:00:15): Yeah. Well, I had experience with Charles. Okay. Second wave feminism. SM (00:00:23): I am just checking to see it is on. SB (00:00:25): Yeah, it is on. SM (00:00:27): Okay. SB (00:00:28): It has been pretty good. I interviewed Noam Chomsky this past week. SM (00:00:31): Oh. SB (00:00:34): I have to... That is going. Second wave feminism. When did it start and how is it different from the first wave? What are the... SM (00:00:45): Well, the first wave was the suffragette, the Suffragists. SB (00:00:48): Right. SM (00:00:48): That was first wave feminism starting in 1848. SB (00:00:54): Right. SM (00:00:54): Yes. So, second wave feminism started about a hundred years later. Probably a really important kickoff was Friedan's book, "The Feminine Mystique", which came out in (19)63, paperback (19)64. That is when I read it. But there were things happening in the left that were making women angry, quite apart from Betty Friedan's book, which was really directed towards middle class white women. The women in the left, in the civil rights movement had gone south to work for equality. They thought they understood that Blacks and whites were equal, but they also thought that males and females were equal, and to their shock in the southern civil rights movement, they discovered that nobody was thinking that women were equal. This wonderful organization, SNCC, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, was really set up in the image of the-the young black guy in denim coveralls. On the individual projects in the famous Freedom Summer of 1964, several women discovered that in a sense, they were being pushed to the back of the bus. So the other movement that was happening a few years later was the anti-war movement. There again, the women who went into the anti-war movement discovered that they were relegated to running the mimeograph. That is what we had, the mimeograph machines and getting the coffee for the meetings. If they spoke aloud at a meeting, the guys just like would not hear it. Then a few minutes later, a guy would make the same point, and every would say, "oh, yeah, that is it. That is, it." So they were burning too. These were young SDS women, you know that, Students for a Democratic Society. They were anti-war women. So, there were two groups of women in the (19)60s, the civil rights women and the anti-war women who began to think, what about us? Which was exactly what had happened in 1848. This was closer to 1968, (19)65-6. A hundred years later. In 1848, there were all these movements around abolition, new socialist movements, the year of the Communist Manifesto, things like that, and the women in the abolition movement discovered that they were not equal to men in the abolition movement. There was a very famous, I do write this in "Our Time," my history of the women's movement. So that is why I am being so articulate now. I know it well, and I teach it too. There was a very famous anti-slavery convention in London, and couples of abolitionist, because they were mostly married, went to the World Anti-Slavery Conference from America. When they got there, the women were told that they did not have voting rights and that they would sit in the balcony. That is when Elizabeth Cady Stanton, and I think it was. SB (00:05:19): [inaudible] home. SM (00:05:22): [inaudible] They were in such a state, and they were determined to start a women's rights movement, and they did in Seneca Falls, 1948. So women's movements happen infrequently in history, and they always seem to tag along in a period of great militance in the country. People are organizing for these rights, those rights, and suddenly the women who are active in all those movements say, "whoa, what about us? What about us?" Then a women's movement starts. So that is really how it happened in the late (19)60s. SB (00:06:00): That is why Frederick Douglass was so ahead of his time, was not he? SM (00:06:03): Yes. SB (00:06:04): Because he was sensitive to both issues. SM (00:06:06): He sure was. SB (00:06:07): I can remember taking my dad before he passed away a couple years ago to Seneca Falls and going through the tour there, the room where the sofa was located, and the fact that Frederick Douglass had come there and spent some time with Elizabeth Cady Stanton. SM (00:06:21): Yes. SB (00:06:23): When you think of the times and how they traveled, that had been so difficult. But he was really ahead of his time. SM (00:06:27): He was definitely ahead of his time. SB (00:06:30): Sure. This is going. Okay, great. SM (00:06:33): Yeah. SB (00:06:36): I am going to read these to make sure that I get these too. Before you were an activist, something that I read that you went to Hebrew school and that had a very important effect on you. I will mention what it was. SM (00:06:48): Tell me what it was. SB (00:06:50): Then you were an actress for a short time. SM (00:06:52): I do not think it was Hebrew school that had a great effect on me. SB (00:06:57): You were a writer. You had been a writer in many years, and you were a student at Cornell? SM (00:06:59): Yeah. SB (00:07:00): How did a combination, this is before... SM (00:07:02): What was the Hebrew thing? Indeed, I went to Hebrew school. SB (00:07:05): The Hebrew School said that it was in... SM (00:07:07): East Midwood Jewish Center. SB (00:07:09): Yes, I think it was, and I have it here. I could show you what the... SM (00:07:13): What was it? SB (00:07:14): It said that because of the experience of the Holocaust and what had happened to many... SM (00:07:19): Oh, I became very Zionist. Is that it? SB (00:07:21): Yeah, that, but you became... Man's inhumanity to a man and that kind of thing, the treatment of people. So, you saw, well, how women were treated, and you said, well, when I was younger, I saw how Jewish people were treated. SM (00:07:38): I got... That must be from the Jewish archives or something, because that is an exaggeration. SB (00:07:44): In fact, I might even find it here. SM (00:07:46): Yeah, please do find the source for that. Because I do not recall the going to the East Midwood Jewish Center had much effect on my development as a feminist. SB (00:07:57): I will find it here. SM (00:08:01): Do not worry about it. I do not think it is true. I mean, I was a rebel. In 1948, Wallace and Taylor ran. I was 13. Roosevelt had just died. Wallace and Taylor were running on a third party ticket for president. At that age, I kind of knew I was for Wallace. I mean... SB (00:08:26): He was much more liberal. SM (00:08:28): Yes. So that became my political awakening. SB (00:08:33): Were there any, in all these experiences, I have a question later on, but I might bring it up now, because in all the years that you worked, now this... SM (00:08:43): I am still working. SB (00:08:45): You are still working. SM (00:08:45): In all the years I have worked. SB (00:08:48): When you were in your early years, when you worked for the Village Voice, ABC. SM (00:08:53): Yeah. SB (00:08:54): You did NBC TV, ABC TV, and then also Newsweek. SM (00:08:58): That was earlier. SB (00:09:00): ... and national affairs. How were you treated as a female? The question is, I was curious as if those experiences in those earlier years, your work experience, not the experience, you are going down south in the summer of (19)64, but those work experiences as a woman in America in the (19)50s, in the early (19)60s. SM (00:09:23): Terrible. SB (00:09:24): How were you treated in these jobs? SM (00:09:25): I was treated like a second class citizen. See, you asked how the movement started you then you said, but you want to ask the personal questions. Again, I suggest you read "In Our Time" because I do describe how, when I worked at Newsweek in (19)63, (19)64 as a researcher, I wanted to be a writer. I was told women do not write it at Newsweek. Men write at Newsweek. You girls as opposed to do research here for two years and then go off and get married. That is what I was told. It was that job that I quit to go down south and work in Mississippi. SB (00:10:10): Right. SM (00:10:10): Yeah. I wanted to write, and Newsweek, later the women sued at Newsweek. It was one of the first cases with the EEOC against a corporation. I had gone by then, but a lot of the women [inaudible]. Nora Ephron was working there as a researcher. She left, she made an early and very good getaway, the New York Post, but the ones who remained behind as researchers who did not get married. It was an aging firm of researchers, and they saw that those of us who left had gotten somewhere. They got angrier and angrier, and eventually they hired Eleanor Holmes Norton as their lawyer and sued. Yeah. So at ABC, this was after I came back from Mississippi. At ABC, they had one woman reporter network, and I wanted to be a reporter. They had me...I was a news writer, and they said, "we have our woman." That was it. They had their one woman and they're one blackest. We have one Black. We have one woman. I tried every local TV station in the city. We have our woman. SB (00:11:37): Now, what year was that? SM (00:11:39): I worked at ABC from (19)65 to (19)68. Yeah. We have our woman, and as they say in my book, they said to me, "you are lucky. You have got a man's job to see you're working at the same job that men can work. What are you complaining about?" SB (00:12:07): Was there a quote at any time in your earlier years, what they call a magic moment, where it is like any person, this is the first time I feel I have to stand up and say something and become vulnerable. Because standing up and speaking or writing or saying something in public... SM (00:12:28): As a feminist? SB (00:12:28): Or... SM (00:12:31): As a feminist? No, it was easy for me to talk about it when it came to civil rights. I had no trouble . SB (00:12:38): Do you remember the very first experience that really upset you when you said, and you spoke up, whether it be you could been in high school or the first thing that. This is wrong. This is wrong. Was it going to down freedom summer? Was that it? SM (00:12:54): No, I think... SB (00:12:54): Your experience in New York City? SM (00:12:55): I came from a very good public school and high school in Brooklyn, and I had no trouble expressing myself, but having an opinion is quite different from doing something. When the civil rights movement started, which I date from, I date it from Feb 2, 1960 with the sit-ins in Greensboro, North Carolina. But of course, I had already been aware of the Montgomery bus boycotts of (19)55. Oh, did I welcome that movement. Did I welcome it? It was not just Montgomery. It spread in (19)55 to a few other cities, but there was no way I could participate really. But in 1960, when the southern sit-ins started, there were picket lines suddenly in front of every Woolworth in New York, or in front of a lot of Woolworths. So, I joined the picket line on 42nd Street, and I met people in CORE, Congress of Racial Equality. SB (00:14:08): James Farmer was the leader of that group at the time. SM (00:14:13): They said, come to the CORE office, in New York CORE and work with us. So I did for a year, and then I did other things. But I welcomed this, the civil rights movement. I welcomed my chance to participate, is what I am saying. Yes. Right. SB (00:14:35): Yeah. I have here talk about your experience in New York City and the effort to integrate the lunch counters because you... SM (00:14:41): Yes. Well, that was it. Somebody, a friend of mine said, "Let us go over to 42nd Street. You will see a picket line. I bet you have never seen a picket line in your life." He was [inaudible] and I had never seen a picket line in my life. There were all these people in front of Woolworth on 42nd Street. I was astonished. SB (00:14:59): Were there people that were actually on the other side though, screaming at you, or... SM (00:15:03): Not at that moment. SB (00:15:03): No. So not that moment. SM (00:15:05): Oh. But there were always [inaudible]. They were cra- You know, do anything publicly in New York, you attract crazies. There were people who made their own signs... I remember they would march up and down the outside of the line saying, "Futility. Futility." Then I started my own picket line in front of Old Woolworth near Bloomingdale's. Yeah, it was great. SB (00:15:35): When you made that decision to go south, because I have spoken to several people that went in the summer of (19)64. Yes. David Hawk, I do not know if you know David. David was on the core organizers of the Moratorium in 1969, and a couple other people that, of course we know Tom Hayden was in that group, Casey Hayden. SM (00:15:55): Yes. She is a Facebook friend now. SB (00:15:57): ...and a couple people that were either in the first training group or the second training group. SM (00:16:02): They were there before Casey. Casey, not Tom, Casey was there before. SB (00:16:06): I am interviewing her sometime in July. SM (00:16:09): Oh, good for you. Give her my regards. SB (00:16:10): She has had some issues, I guess. And she has had to put off interviewing or something. SM (00:16:14): Health issues? SB (00:16:15): No. Not health issues. Just... First of all, she does not do many interviews. SM (00:16:20): She does not. SB (00:16:23): Mr. Gor- I think Tom Gorman was a friend of hers, and I interviewed Tom and Casey. Anyways, she has agreed to do an interview in July sometime. SM (00:16:34): Great. SB (00:16:36): But the question I am really getting at here, SM (00:16:38): Well, you should read her contribution to that book of- SB (00:16:41): I have. SM (00:16:41): Women in the- SB (00:16:43): I have. That is the one with the kind of a light brownish cover. SM (00:16:46): I do not know. I have it over there. SB (00:16:46): Yeah. SM (00:16:47): It is like eight women, eight white women in the southern... Yeah, something like that. SB (00:16:52): What amazes me, because it was a thousand people in that first wave. I know... SM (00:16:56): Yes. But she was there before. She was not among those first wave of students. SB (00:17:00): Right. SM (00:17:00): She started a few years earlier, she got radicalized at Texas where she met Tom Hayden because he was on some committee of a national whatever. She was a white Texas girl who found her way to that southern movement early. SB (00:17:19): As one of the individuals who came from the north to go down south. That had to be for anyone in their, whether you be in their twenties, an experience that could be exciting but then you get down there and then you face the reality of what it's really like. Did you fear for your life? SM (00:17:39): Yes. SB (00:17:40): Because some people that I have talked to did. SM (00:17:41): Of course. SB (00:17:42): ...and particularly those that followed the first after Chaney... SM (00:17:46): Yes. SB (00:17:46): ...Goodman, and Schwerner were murdered. SM (00:17:48): Right. Well, I went down with my friend Jan Goodman, who lives in this apartment building. We were in our twenties. We were in our late twenties actually. By then, we were older than the age of the student volunteer. But hey, a movement was starting, but we had the philosophy that everyone had, which was that this was a cause that was worth giving your life to. Now looking back and looking at those pathetic, crazed suicide bombers, wherever they are. I think that this concept of giving your life to a cause is something that you can think about when you are very young, but when you are older, you are what is important enough to end your life for? So, I remember that Jan and I, we volunteered to go to Meridian and Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney had just been declared missing. At our orientation session, which was not at Oxford, it was later, it was in another city, they said, "We need volunteers in Meridian." And they said, "Meridian is really the safest place in Mississippi," And this happened, but it happened outside Meridian in Neshoba County in Philadelphia. So Jan and I, because we were slightly older than, so nobody wanted to go to Meridian. Meridian was a CORE project, and the other projects were basically SNCC projects. Jan and I volunteered for Meridian. Now this is interesting because I quit, Jan quit her job at the Girl Scouts to go, or took her summer leave from the Girl Scouts. She was working as an organizer for the Girl Scouts. I took my leave from Newsweek. Newsweek was not happy that I was going south. Newsweek had two southern reporters who were certain that I was going to mess things up for them, Karl Fleming and Joe Cumming. We had a Newsweek reunion a few years ago, and Joe and Fleming came over to me. We remember the moment and because he objected a lot. He said, "You are sending a young researcher?" No, it is her summer vacation. She is going. He said, "Well, she is going to get arrested, and she is going to be identified with Newsweek, and I have to work both sides of the aisle here." So Newsweek, in its questionable wisdom, took my name off the masthead for the time that I was in Mississippi. Yes. Peter Goldman, who was the Star National reporter. I was his researcher. Peter Goldman, said, she is going to get herself killed. I mean, he was very hostile. Very hostile. But he was writing all the civil rights stories for [inaudible]. SB (00:21:07): Yes. SM (00:21:07): I am sure he told you. SB (00:21:08): Yes. SM (00:21:09): I was checking the facts. So yeah, Peter was not wonderful at that moment. Yeah. So anyway, Jan and I are driving. She was the driver. She had rented a car. We're driving into Mississippi, and they had told us at the orientation session, I could see her in Nashville, in Memphis, I do not remember. They had told us, when you crossed the border into Mississippi, roll up the windows of your car, and she rolls up the windows of her car. I remember this so well. I said, Jan, what's the difference between where we were two minutes ago and where we are? Why are you rolling up the windows of your car? We were two white women in a car. But she was nervous. Jan stayed in the movement far longer than I could. SB (00:22:05): Now You were there just the summer, or... SM (00:22:07): Then I went back and yeah, I came back to Newsweek after my summer vacation. It was very hard to resume a bourgeois life. SB (00:22:19): I understand that. SM (00:22:20): After being in Mississippi. SB (00:22:21): What was a typical day like? I know that people were down there, but what was a typical day like when you are trained and when you go off? SM (00:22:30): Yeah. Well, it was easy in Meridian. I mean, because everybody was really scared because of Woodman, Schwerner and Chaney. What we did... We were housed with a black family, Jan and I, the Falconers, F-A-L-C-O-N-E-R-S, Falconers. The wife was Johnny May Falconer. She had a daughter named Sandy, and I forget the son's name, and her husband worked for the railroad. In the month that we lived with them, he could never get to sit at the same table with us for a meal. He still could not get him to sit down with the white women. We would take a bus, a city bus to the COFO office, Congress of Federated Organizations. That was the name of the umbrella group that was mostly SNCC, a little bit of CORE. We were doing voter registration, symbolic voter registration for what turned out to be the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. We were canvassing Blacks, asking them if they could vote, would they register to vote? Would they? Then they would fill out the forms, and we would pair off in interracial couples to do this. We would also... There were other activities. It was a freedom school, which I think was probably more fun, but... SM (00:24:03): ... activities. It was a freedom school, which I think was probably more fun, but we did not do that. Then we got a message one day, James Bevel came to town, and he said that Martin Luther King was swinging through on the speech tour, and Jan and I said, "Oh, we could organize that." I mean, yeah, we have done a lot of that sort of stuff. So we helped to organize the turnout for the Martin Luther King rallies in Meridian. So, then we went back to our lives after, when the summer was over, they said, go back to your life. But Jan and I both felt that our lives were too bourgeois. I mean, how could I return? Newsweek was on Madison and 50th, and it was a block away from Saks Fifth Avenue. So, on my lunch share, I would go to Saks Fifth Avenue and shop. How can I do that after Mississippi? So Jan and I, no, I think she had made an earlier arrangement. She hooked up with the MFDP, Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. I think Lawrence Guyot was still around and had asked her. So I went back down and worked in the Jackson office, 1017 Lynn Street. I lived on the Tougaloo Campus in a house that was famous for having Casey Hayden having lived in it before. I had come back, it felt very important to vote for LBJ in November. So when I went back to Mississippi, by then the movement ... I was in Casey's house, and Casey's clothes were there, but she had already gone to New Orleans. She was burned out. Also, the movement was questioning whites, because as I am sure you know, not all the blacks in SNCC had welcomed these white students who were not all white and were not all students. They were ministers. They were all sorts of people. Then of course, when all the publicity that summer was because two white guys and one black guy had gotten killed, there was a lot of resentment over that too, because there had been other murders in Mississippi, civil rights connected, but they had not gotten the attention of Goodman Schwerner and Cheney. So, this anti-white feeling was seething. After that summer, the movement really did lose its direction a bit. People said to me, "Listen, you have to make your own project, do your own thing, because there's nobody here to assign you to anything." So I did a little of that. I actually wrote my first story for the Village Voice from Mississippi. They were holding a cotton board election. It's complicated, but there was such a thing called a cotton board. Of course, it only whites would get on the cotton board, but they established the cotton allotments, how much you could plant, and how much you could not plant. So COFO thought it would be very important to monitor the elections, and also to try to get blacks to run for the cotton board. So, I and a guy got sent to, I think it was Edina, to monitor the cotton board elections. Now, I thought it was extraordinary the COFO was doing this, and I tried to get the New York press in the Jackson office, alerted to the fact that the movement was still alive and well and we were monitoring the cotton of board elections. I could not get anybody interested in it. Sometime how after that summer of (19)64, the press lost interest in the Civil Rights movement, and the Civil Rights movement was losing its steam and getting very self-involved in who are we? SB (00:28:51): Was that when Black Power really came about? SM (00:28:54): Ah, yeah. SB (00:28:55): Because Malcolm X died in (19)65, but he was "all white men are devils." But then he changed his attitude when he went to Mecca. SM (00:29:04): Right. SB (00:29:05): But he did not live very long. SM (00:29:06): No, but that is what was happening. Stokely was beginning to speak up about Black Power. So I tried to get the white press. I tried to get Life interested, others interested. Nobody was interested in the cotton election. So, I said, "God damn, I am going to write a story myself." I always wanted to write. So I wrote it and sent it to the Village Voice, and it was the first thing they ever print of mine. Wow. SB (00:29:32): Yeah. Black Power. It is interesting. We had Tommy Smith in our campus, the guy from (19)68 Olympics who put his fist up. We had him at our school a year and a half ago, and he was really upset when people said that he was a Black Panther. "I had nothing to do with being a Black Panther." And he had to correct them all the time. This is Black Power. It is about injustice against African-American. Nothing to do with Black Panthers. But I was on college campuses, and I know the split that was also happening there. The intimidation in the late (19)60s. The Afros and the encounter classes that were happening. SM (00:30:11): Yeah. SB (00:30:14): I have asked a lot of our guests, when we talk about the era that Boomers have been alive. Now, Boomers were born between (19)46 and (19)64. SM (00:30:21): Yes. I was quite a bit older. SB (00:30:24): Again, the difference between the Boomers from the first 10 years and the second 10 years is a difference in night and day. I have learned that through the interview process. But what was it like being a woman in ... what I am trying to describe about the Boomers themselves, the era that Boomers have lived, the 63 years they have been on this planet, because the oldest Boomers are 63 years old and the youngest are 47. So, I am looking at that period of time since right after the war ended. What was it like being a female in the late (19)40s and the (19)50s, and then in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, the (19)80s, the (19)90s, and the 2010s? I break it down by decades. I know it might even be different to some of the people, but what was it like in- SM (00:31:16): It was stifling in the (19)50s. You could not be anything. In the (19)60s at first did not change for women. But there were other forms of activism available that I and a lot of other women joined. Civil Rights, Anti-War. But it was not until the start of the women's movement that I found a movement that was directly concerned with me. Never thought it would happen. SB (00:31:53): And that is really the (19)70s then, really. SM (00:31:55): Well, (19)69. SB (00:31:59): (19)69, (19)70 and the (19)70s are when a lot of the movements really came in. SM (00:32:03): [inaudible] That was the women's decade. SB (00:32:08): And the (19)80s. What happened in the (19)80s besides Ronald Reagan being one? SM (00:32:12): Well, I wish you had read "In Our Time," because I talked about that too, that in the (19)80s, women continued to make strides in terms of employment, things like that. But suddenly you needed two incomes in a family to survive under the Reagan Era. Things had been cheap before then, things were cheap in New York. You could get a cheap apartment and have a part-time job and still have time for your political activism. But that disappeared in the Reagan Era. That was, I think, one of the primary reasons why activism fell off in the (19)80s. It was it the pressure to earn a living with the rising rents and double-digit inflation. It became very difficult. SB (00:33:09): Before we go in the (19)90s, the (19)70s was the heyday of the second wave of the women's movement. And obviously that was also the environmental movement because of Earth Day. You might even say because of Stonewall, that was the gay and lesbian- SM (00:33:24): Oh, absolutely. All happening. SB (00:33:26): Certainly, even the Native American movement, that was (19)69 to (19)73. But why is it that that decade, and I just interviewed Dr. Schulman up in Boston, who just wrote a book on the (19)70s. There is something that happens. People seem to remember the first half of the (19)70s, but they do not remember the second half and I said, "Is it because of disco?" So, what happened as how some people look at the (19)60s as the decade. SM (00:34:00): That is right. SB (00:34:01): And they kind of knock the (19)70s knowing that when you define the (19)60s, that goes up to (19)73 in most cases, because even people say the (19)60s was from (19)63 to (19)73 or something like that. So, what I am saying- SM (00:34:15): Well, I know I have heard that, but I date it a little differently. Hold on. Let get a cough drop. SB (00:34:19): Yep. SM (00:34:25): People have tried to write the women's movement out of history, that is one thing. I have read accounts of the (19)70s, Rolling Stone asked me to contribute to an account of the (19)70s. And I said, "Well, for your purposes, we got Roe v. Wade." SB (00:34:51): I got that later on. SM (00:34:52): The editor said, "What? That happened in the (19)70s." I said, "Yes, women won abortion rights in the 1970s." "No kidding." There have been many intellectuals who have tried to bury the women's movement. Tom Wolf, most famously, he is referring to it as "The Me Generation." Todd Gitlin famously refers to as the "Identity generation" me, my identity. He does not consider the issues that emerged to be on the level of his great involvement. SB (00:35:41): I interviewed him too. SM (00:35:41): Yeah. Well, incredibly important movements arose in the (19)70s. At this point, I would say that the gay rights movement is stronger than the women's movement. The environmental movement has certainly gotten a push from the Gulf spill. SB (00:36:09): Oh, yes. SM (00:36:13): But by the end of the decade, before the election of Ronald Reagan, there were many of us who felt that somehow we were running out of steam in the women's movement, and the great divisions had arose among us. I was part of a group that formed Women Against Pornography in (19)78, and that became a very divisive issue in the movement. Earlier than that some people, like Phyllis Schlafly, had decided to take a very strong stand on surrogacy. She argued, and I guess would still argue, that a woman who offers her body as a surrogate has a right to change her mind. And others of us thought, well, well, a contract's a contract. If you have volunteered your womb, and perhaps your egg to incubate a baby for somebody else, well, you signed a contract. What is this, a woman has the right to change her mind all of a sudden. So, I was surprised when Phyllis Schlafly turned surrogacy into a woman's right thing. And a lot of people were surprised when I turned anti-pornography into a feminist thing, not I alone. I mean, Schlafly alone seemed to be spearheading the surrogate thing in the case of Mary Beth Whitehead. But pornography split the movement a bit or earlier than that, prostitution split the movement a bit because some leftists in our movement, they named it sex work. They named prostitution sex work and said it was as honorable as any other kind of work, and that all work is basically exploited anyway. I said, "Excuse me, what I do is not exploited as a writer. I do not get exploited except maybe by my publisher." I never have royalty statements. But I thought that the effort to redefine prostitution as sex work was really bad and they keep it up, because this is an international dispute now. Those of us who considered ourselves the ones with the real feminist analysis said, "No one should be allowed to buy a woman's body the way no one should be allowed to buy any person's body. I mean, we eliminated slavery. We have to eliminate prostitution." But that battle still goes on. SB (00:39:25): Now, when you look at certainly the (19)50s and the (19)60s, you got to think of Hugh Hefner. I have not brought him up very much. SM (00:39:34): An enemy. SB (00:39:35): Okay, but I have not brought him up hardly in any of the interviews. Well, you are talking about the sexual revolution. You bring up Hugh Hefner, and some people say that his work was more art, but when you compare a Larry Flint that is more pornography. So, they're in the same boat, but Hugh Hefner was the front runner of all this. SM (00:40:00): Well, he has a whole team of publicists who are still promoting his role as a great sexual liberator. SB (00:40:13): His kids are going to take over, too. His sons who are like 20, 18, when they do. I had a question here on the organizing of the Women Against Pornography. How effective had that been? SM (00:40:37): We lost. SB (00:40:39): Obviously, they even had a TV show recently on CNN going into that, in-depth on the business and so forth. So that is- SM (00:40:52): The industry, it was a very funny thing at the time, even. SB (00:40:58): Make sure this is still going. Yep, we are doing fine. SM (00:41:07): We had a slideshow on a carousel, and we would invite audiences to see it. Pictures really, atrocious pictures from Hustler, from Penthouse, from Playboy. That was our technology moving the crank on a carousel on a slideshow. Meanwhile, the industry is moving with VCRs. The porn stores are opening all over the place. You can now buy a VCR, take it home in the privacy of your home seat, you do not have to go to a booth in Times Square and masturbate in a booth. You can take it home. So it was hilarious. It was like the technology changes that we were talking about. But we also had a problem, in addition to the fact that the industry was growing by leaps and bounds, and all kinds of people got the idea into their heads, was that, "Ooh, I want to be a Hollywood director, so the first thing I do is make a porn film, make money on that, and then I can direct a real film." I mean, it permeated everybody in the (19)70s. It was disgusting. SB (00:42:29): Well, I do remember Hugh Hefner being interviewed, even recently saying, I do not know what it was, he was on television, and he said, "Well, Playboy was very important to change the attitudes in America that bodies are beautiful, that a women's body is art." SM (00:42:59): I know his lines, and I have seen the most recent documentary, which unfortunately, I mean, this Canadian woman fooled me, Pat Boone and I represent the opposition. And everyone, including Jesse Jackson and Mike Wallace is saying, "Oh, Hugh Hefner was such a pioneer." It was horrible. I crept out of the screening. I was mortified that she fooled me. She really hood winked me. Anyway, what were we talking about? We were talking about the changes. SB (00:43:36): Yeah, we were talking about changes. Yeah, we were talking about changes. SM (00:43:37): Well, the other thing that happened in our anti-pornography movement was little did we know that there were ... we saw pornography as something created by men, that men watched and masturbated over it. That is how we saw pornography. And as for gay-on-gay pornography, it did not bother us. Men want to, that is their thing. We were thinking of heterosexual pornography as being a lie about women. It was always showing rapes, gang rapes that women love. But within the women's movement, it turned out we had people and some identify themselves as lesbian feminists, some identify themselves as straight feminists, who said that they found their sexuality in pornography, and that our images that we thought were so horrible about bondage and things like that they enjoyed and that we were censoring their minds. That is a very serious charge. SB (00:44:47): You talk about that- SM (00:44:48): We did not mean to censor their minds. We did not think those images were very healthy. SB (00:44:54): When you wrote "Against Our ..." I am going to get back to the [inaudible], maybe I will finish this question here on the decades. You talk about how about the (19)90s? Where were the women's movement in the (19)90s and 2000s? SM (00:45:05): Well, the movement goes on. There are people working in every aspect of it. It was through our movement that we established the battered women's shelters, the rape crisis centers, the laws against sexual harassment. These were women's movement accomplishments of the (19)70s. In the (19)80s, those forms of organizing, having a battered women's shelter, having a rape crisis center, having a hotline, they got taken over by the establishment, as well they should have. They moved into the mainstream of community service. A town with good people funded a battered women's shelter so you did not need feminist activists to be involved in it any more. In fact, they were pushed out because they did not have social work degrees. SB (00:46:09): It is interesting, I cannot remember who I interviewed that said, when I brought up the name Gloria Steinem, they said she is the epitome of a person who is now mainstream. She's the most mainstream of all the feminists. SM (00:46:24): Well, I do not know. I think she keeps trying to be relevant. She tries very hard. It is her life. It is her life to be a public speaker and to travel to colleges. So, I do not need to criticize her. SB (00:46:36): The (19)90s though itself? SM (00:46:39): So, getting to the (19)90s. SB (00:46:43): Bill Clinton. Stop. Here we go. SM (00:46:52): Yep, it is fine. Okay. It is on? SB (00:46:54): Yep, it is on. SM (00:46:55): I can say from personal experience, because in the (19)90s I was writing my book called "In Our Time: Memoir of a Revolution," I would say that my editor, who had signed it earlier in the decade with great hopes and a big advance, was telling me several years later that the salesmen were reporting to her that no one was interested in a history of the feminist movement, and that there was no chance for this book in the public marketplace. So, something happened out there, in the culture at large, where even though individual women were making strides in their individual lives, the movement was dead as an issue that engaged the public. SB (00:47:55): See, that was the same criticism that when people praised the (19)60s, they criticized the (19)70s because ... SB (00:48:03): When people praised the (19)60s, they criticized the (19)70s because what happened to all those movements? What happened to all of them? SM (00:48:08): They were there. SB (00:48:09): They were there in the (19)70s. SM (00:48:10): They were not their movements. The civil rights movement split off into black power, which I think was very destructive. SB (00:48:17): Right. SM (00:48:18): Right? SB (00:48:18): Mm-hmm. SM (00:48:22): The anti-war people, what happened to them? Most of them went into academia and became professors, which a lot of them did. A lot of them quickly jumped into academia. SB (00:48:37): And I know the gay and lesbian movement was in its heyday in the (19)70s, SM (00:48:40): Yes, and it was a fantastic improvement in civilization, but some people were so angry at it because they were not gay. SB (00:48:49): And then AIDS hit in the (19)80s. SM (00:48:50): And then it became a really serious movement, and that is when I saw a split off in the women's movement where the lesbian feminist in our movement discovered they identified more with gay men than they did with heterosexual women. It was profound to see that happen at the time of AIDS. It was such a crisis that lesbians felt, Hey, I have been working in this women's movement and we are always talking about abortion rights, and now suddenly a movement closer to my own identity is talking about we need a vaccine, we need something, we have got to stop this epidemic. And they move, they move right over. SB (00:49:35): What is interesting too is that when you see, and I have seen it in the universities over the years, is that the split between the African American community and the gay community, even though they are united in many respects, only through crises do groups like this seem to come together. We had a student who now works in Washington who had the gay and lesbian office right across from the BSU office. He said, I was afraid of even walking in there for fear of what someone might say. SM (00:50:07): Yeah. SB (00:50:07): And the fact that many in the African American community have been raised in the church that this is wrong by their ministers. SM (00:50:13): Yeah. SB (00:50:14): And so, you have got that split automatically. SM (00:50:16): Yeah, but it also did not fit their idea of machismo black men. What? We're not gay. Oh. It is very complicated, it is very complicated. SB (00:50:27): Where did Clinton fall on any of this? And he's- SM (00:50:30): Well, he started off pretty good, but the Monica Lewinsky case really did him in, as I keep reminding us. On television, I was watching Colbert last night. I think he wanted to have a much more liberal presidency than he could have. One of his very first acts was he wanted to close some military bases in the United States, and people had forgotten this. People jumped on him. You want to make America- SB (00:51:07): One of them was right in Philadelphia, Philadelphia [inaudible] I remember. SM (00:51:07): Is that one that he wanted to close? SB (00:51:08): Yes. SM (00:51:08): Yeah. SB (00:51:09): Ireland inspector came right after. SM (00:51:11): Yeah. Right. Well, see, I am glad you remember it because very few people remember that it was one of the first acts that Clinton was attempting, and he had not thought that through very carefully in terms of the reaction. SB (00:51:23): Do not ask, do not tell was the other- SM (00:51:24): The other thing was do not ask, do not tell, which he thought was a progressive move at the time, and everyone's hit him on it. SB (00:51:31): Oh, yes. SM (00:51:32): Yeah. SB (00:51:33): David Mixer was the one that really hit him, and I think resigned over it or something like that or he left the White House. SM (00:51:39): Yeah. SB (00:51:40): And how about this last 10 years, George Bush and of course, and now President Obama. Any changes there, have you seen? SM (00:51:53): I know because I am on the mailing list that the Pro-Choice abortion action groups are still with Obama, but worried a bit about him. SB (00:52:08): Yeah. SM (00:52:10): But cannot fault his Supreme Court nominations. I do not know. He got hit with more stuff as president than anybody else. And of course, there has been this strange sudden rise or coalescing of a nutty far right, a religious, nutty far right. I work really hard as a volunteer in the Obama campaign, which is interesting because many of my old feminist friends were horrified that I was not for Hillary, and that was another division in those of us who identify ourselves primarily as feminists. SB (00:52:53): Yeah. I think we are going to see her run again. And of course, he is going to run again. I see her running in, let us see, 2012, (20)16. But there has been some scenario, I am going into it here, some scenarios where she could run in two years. SM (00:53:15): I have heard that too. I have heard that, that they have a deal. SB (00:53:19): If there is a chance that there is no way he is going to win or ... There is some things going on right now. SM (00:53:24): I have heard it. I have heard the same thing. SB (00:53:26): Yeah. SM (00:53:29): I do not know. I am not in the in group. I just get a hell of a lot of fundraising requests on my email to help the Democrat, because I gave money for the Obama campaign. And I did a lot of telephone work, so I am on their list, but I am not a fat cat, and I really resent saying, do you believe what Obama said today contribute to the Democratic Party? SB (00:53:55): I do not like those emails that are sent in. There was an email where after they took the vote on healthcare- SM (00:54:03): Yeah, they wanted us to pay for it. SB (00:54:06): Yeah, but give a thank you to Nancy Pelosi. Well, I sent a thank you to Nancy Pelosi for doing that, and now all I have been getting now is from the Democratic Committee, all these, send 25, 59. SM (00:54:18): Yeah. SB (00:54:19): I did not do that to thank Nancy Pelosi. SM (00:54:21): Right. They get your name on the list. I mean, I am furious. I mean, I identify the names now. They all- SB (00:54:30): Vogel or whatever his name is. They are always coming from a guy named Vogel. And again, when I look at the boomer generation, I always look at the presidents. Harry Truman was president [inaudible] right through Obama. Now, when you look at that, all those different presidents, do any of them stand out as presidents who ... If you had a conference tomorrow on women's issues, I do not think Obama has been in long enough, evaluating the president since World War II, would any of them get passing grades? SM (00:55:06): No. No. It was not a primary issue for any president, and I remember Roosevelt too. I was a child. No. Well, because of the abortion issue in particular, it is a tough one to run on. Yeah. And Obama has made statements that can be interpreted several ways, when he says, we want abortion to be legal, but rare. Well, rare? How rare? Inaccessible or everybody is on birth control, using protective measures? What does he mean by that? But it is a very tough issue. And the biggest change I have seen in the national psyche is that we talked about abortion as a woman's right to control her own destiny. And now it has gummed up with all sorts of other things because of the influence of the religious right. My students think that a first trimester abortion hurts. They go, Ooh. Not that they are not having them, ooh, it hurts. And this whole business of killing a baby. We have not killed a baby, we're just killing a tiny little fetus that we are unprepared to raise. So, I have seen a tremendous setback in young women's attitudes toward abortion. And even my heroes on TV like John Stewart, he has said things, I am not altogether comfortable with the idea of abortion. But I mean, he is bending it, but he is backtracking. Okay, you are taking a life. The point was women's life. Before it is born, it is not a life, so we have lost that. SB (00:57:13): I wanted to say too, that I think your work and your book, Against Our Will, as a person who has worked in higher education for over 30 years, you have had impact on higher education and the issue of rape. SM (00:57:25): I hope so. SB (00:57:25): Oh, yes. It is one of the major issues in universities today. Every university I have worked at, it has been a major ... well, they hired a person. The women's center person is normally linked to it, but it is much, much more than that with a health center. So, you got to realize that your book, Against Our Will, and what you did back in (19)75 by writing about this issue has had direct effect on universities today. SM (00:57:50): Yeah, that is what I published at (19)75. I started writing it a few years earlier. SB (00:57:55): Again, we do not pinpoint it on fraternities anymore, but still a lot of college men have to still hear this story over and over again. And I know it is like a record to some people. They probably heard it in high school, but it is important because it is a very important orientation wherever I have been. And that women, I think in universities today, at least the universities I have worked at, I have worked at four different ones, feel much more empowered. They know their voice counts. And in this particular issue of rape, I am hoping that the stigma and the fear of going to the public safety ... and that is the one thing we have been trying to do, is the stigma and fear that some of them have. And of course, the worry what the parents might think of them for getting drunk and not knowing what was happening. SM (00:58:56): Yeah. Yeah. SB (00:58:56): But I just praise you for that. I just praise your work. SM (00:59:00): Well, thank you, but it was part of a movement. I did not make this all up by myself. Yeah. It was a movement. SB (00:59:08): But you had to know that this is ongoing and will forever have a direct effect on male-female relationships, at least within the universities and colleges and community colleges. SM (00:59:18): Oh, sure. SB (00:59:18): It is part of the daily life, and even in fraternities now. I worked with fraternities. There was a period of time, oh, I got to go through this. No, not anymore. Most of the fraternity guys now work with some of those other people on the other side to educate their fellow brothers or sisters to be sensitive to this issue. SM (00:59:40): Yeah. SB (00:59:40): And hopefully the biggest stigma is going to public safety. And that seems to be still the hardest thing for some of the females to go in [inaudible] that they have been raped. SM (00:59:53): Yeah. Well, because they are still, I think, afraid of a viral internet smear on their reputation, which has happened to several rape victims. SB (01:00:04): Right. I have here that Roe v. Wade was the most important legal decision in 1973 since the end of World War II. SM (01:00:13): Yes. SB (01:00:13): Do you feel that is the most important legal decision? SM (01:00:13): Well, I say since Brown versus Board of Education of (19)54. Yeah. That is how I teach it. SB (01:00:22): Are you fearful as a person that one day they will try to change that? SM (01:00:27): They are trying. SB (01:00:28): They will not succeed though. Today they will not succeed. SM (01:00:31): They better not, but they are cutting it back and back and back and back. I was reading about the Miranda Rights from Warren Court era. SB (01:00:41): Right. SM (01:00:41): They are cutting back on Miranda rights. They are cutting back on a woman's right to have an abortion. In many states you cannot get an abortion now. There are so many qualifications. Now you have to watch an ultra ... it is offered to you. You do not have to watch it. You can close your eyes, but before you get an abortion, in many states, you have to look at an ultrasound of this itty-bitty thing that is inside you. But of course, it's blown up big on a screen, and it looks like something is sucking its thumb. That is just one example. It is the latest tactic is the ultrasound. But the parental notifications, the waiting period, all the picketing that they have done, the shooting of abortion providers, so at least four shootings of abortion providers. So, you cannot say it is one nut somewhere. It is part of their movement, they kill. And what else has happened? Well, the hounding of abortion providers in some of the smaller states. New York, I am sure it is pretty easy to get an abortion, but- SB (01:02:04): Yeah, on university campuses, there will be groups that cannot actually be on campus, but they have the right to stand on the streets surrounding campuses because it is a public sidewalk. And they have the okay to hand out literature, the body parts and the ugliest pictures you're can ever see, but not a lot on the campus. SM (01:02:25): Well, that is good, but there was something else that they are doing. It just went out of my mind. I have to think about it because it is important. Oh, yeah. I just had gotten an email about it. One of the antis strategies now is to have abortion crisis centers and get them in the yellow pages. And women think this is a place where you can go and get an abortion, and it turns out it is not. It is a place that will tell you about the evils of abortion. And once they grab these young women for whom it was a big step to say, yes, I want an abortion, then they get in the hands of these abortion crisis centers, and they are fed a different line altogether and are under an enormous pressure to bring the child to term and give it up for adoption. SB (01:03:39): I just had a question here regarding just some of the other classic figures or writers in the second wave. Whether you want to comment on any of these individuals, I will just read their names and some of them are politicians too, of course. Kate Millet and Sherry Hite, Jill Johnson, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abs, Betty Friedan, Jermaine Greer, Susan Sontag, Alice Walker, Rebecca Walker, who I really like. SM (01:04:05): Well, I would not put Susan Sontag in a list of feminists if I did not- SB (01:04:10): Well, I might put her in the writer area, Alice Walker and Rebecca Walker, who I really think are unbelievable. We have had her on campus. Winona LaDuke, who I think is a fantastic Native American, and Andrea Dorkin, who passed away, and Robin Morgan. I think I have Geraldine Ferrara over here, too, but these are just people when I think of the (19)60s and the (19)70s and some of the books that have been written, and I have some of the books. Oh, I had books of all these people. But what do you think of these people? SM (01:04:38): Well, everyone had an important role to play, wish we had more of them, because you are describing ... I mean, your list is made up of the ones who got famous and had extraordinary skills of being articulate, having an ability to write. Not everybody in a movement, although most wish they could, but they do not write, they do not publish, and they cannot speak before a crowd. And yet they are the heart of the movement. SB (01:05:15): Yeah. I remember we had a speaker that ... we tried to get Gloria Steinem to come to Westchester. We ended up getting Mary Tom. SM (01:05:22): Oh, yeah. SB (01:05:23): Now she was very good, but she was very good if you had her on stage interviewing her, but she was not good as a public speaker. SM (01:05:30): Well, there you go. SB (01:05:30): Yeah. But we wish we had interviewed her because she was great at dinner. What are your thoughts on these conservative women who came to the forefront since World War II? SM (01:05:41): Yes. SB (01:05:43): These are people that are really against probably women's studies and a lot of the women's issues. And I start right out with Phyllis Schlafly, who I have interviewed, who has been very friendly. We brought her to our campus and our conservative students like her. But her quote is that the troublemakers of the (19)60s are now running today's universities, including all the studies departments, so they are- SM (01:06:09): Pardon? SB (01:06:10): Women's studies, black studies, gay studies and [inaudible]. SM (01:06:13): I did say that a lot of former radicals went into academia. SB (01:06:20): Right. SM (01:06:20): They looked around and said, well, I think I need a steady job for life and a pension. SB (01:06:28): So that is truth from- SM (01:06:30): I would say it is true. A lot of so-called Marxist, feminist academics, [inaudible] I mean, they just ran into academia. SB (01:06:39): And that is been a critic of the university in the (19)80s and (19)90s, that the people of the (19)60s are the liberals who controlled the humanities department. So, they control the liberal arts department, arts and sciences. SM (01:06:52): That is probably true. SB (01:06:53): What are your thoughts on other ones that stood out during this period, whether they be a Margaret Thatcher, who was during the Reagan era? Anne Coulter, Michelle Malkin. SM (01:07:05): Well, I mean, I would not put- SB (01:07:07): They are different eras. SM (01:07:08): Yeah. No, but they are different kinds of people. Michelle Balkan and Ann Coulter are right wing screamers on television, are not they? Margaret Thatcher was a complicated person, she was conservative. So on one level, I think way, Hey, she got to be Prime Minister. On the other hand, I mean, she destroyed the labor movement in England. But on the other hand, maybe it saved England. I do not know. I am not enough of a student of English history. SB (01:07:43): And, well, actually, Colter and Malkin are very popular now because they write books and they go out and speak on college campuses. SM (01:07:51): Yeah, very articulate. SB (01:07:55): And one of the older ones is Gertrude Himmelfarb, which is I think Bill Crystal's mother, and she is [inaudible] for criticisms of the left. SM (01:08:03): Oh, well, yeah. She has been around forever. SB (01:08:05): And the other one I have here is, I think it was ... What is her name? Oh, golly. Forget her name now, cannot read my writing here. Oh, Sarah Palin. I have Sarah Palin here. SM (01:08:19): Yes. Well, she is quite a phenomenon, isn't she? SB (01:08:19): Anita Bryant is the other one. SM (01:08:24): Yes. Yeah. Well, just because they are women does not mean that you have to ask me to apologize for them. I mean, what the women's movement did was open up doors for women of all kinds to express themselves, and I guess many of us have been shocked at what has come out of these women's mouths. They are certainly not hewing to a feminist line. In fact, it is very funny. I tangled with one of them on a television show. I do not think it was any of the ones you mentioned. I think she came and went. I think she was with the Heritage Foundation, but it was a Charlie Rose show, and she had been trained to interrupt whatever I said and just go, [inaudible] I could not get a word in and I was so unused to that, and he could not control it either. It was the first time I saw that new women were coming up who ... they did get training in how to speak loudly, forcefully, and not give the opposition a chance. I mean, maybe today they do not need those kinds of training sessions, but at the rise of these right-wing spokespeople, they had training sessions. I just could not believe it. Every time I asked, she said, you believe this, you believe that, duh, duh, duh. And I thought Charlie Rose was supposed to be the moderator here. Tell her to shut up. I do not want to scream too. SB (01:10:12): Yeah, we have had- SM (01:10:12): But they became fantastic screamers, so many of them with long blonde hair. That is, it. Suddenly we have a generation of long, beautifully thin, blonde-haired screamers on the right, except Sarah Palin- SB (01:10:26): Are they on Fox? SM (01:10:27): Yeah, they are all on Fox, aren't they? Oh. What have we wrought? SB (01:10:34): One of the things the questions I do ask everyone is something that [inaudible] Gingrich talked about when he came into power in (19)94 when the Republicans took over for power. And then I have read some of his writings, and he has a PhD in history too, and he actually is a boomer. And George Will has also made comments in some of his writings, and I know Huckabee has done it on his TV show. And I know when Hillary Clinton was running for President, McCain had made accidentally a reference to her as one of the hippies or whatever from that period. But the question is this, that the reason why we have a breakdown in our society today goes right back to the (19)60s, goes right back to the (19)60s generation and that era, because the increase in the divorce rate, the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority- SM (01:11:30): And abortion. SB (01:11:30): Yeah, and special interest groups. SM (01:11:31): Because Gingrich, he is so virulent against abortion. SB (01:11:36): But they claim that that is the era when all of the things started going wrong with America, and it is during that timeframe. And they make references to the (19)60s, and they know it is not all boomers, but they make references to the reason why we have these problems, and the isms culture, whatever it might be. And in the end, what they are thinking of is they would like to see a return to the (19)50s. SB (01:12:03): In the end, what they are thinking of is, they would like to see a return to the (19)50s, I think, or a period Reagan of what was trying to do in the (19)80s. SM (01:12:12): Of course, they are nostalgic for the (19)50s. Women did not have a chance at anything, Blacks did not have a chance at anything. That is what Gingrich really is yearning for. You could not be a public gay, except maybe if you were on Broadway. The changes have been amazing in culture, and who would have predicted the forms they would have taken? It has all been a march forward, except now for this sudden strange rise of the fundamentalist right in this country, and I would add, the strange rebirth of Islamic fundamentalism in the Mid-East. SB (01:12:57): What are your thoughts on when Mondale picked Ferraro? In your opinion, was there a seriousness in picking her? SM (01:13:06): I thought it was terrific at the moment? SB (01:13:08): It was not tokenism? SM (01:13:10): Who cares? She was the first candidate of a major party for vice president who was a woman. He should have done more of a background search on her, because John's Zaccaro, her husband... that is the problem. When you have a woman. She comes with a husband who helped her get to where she got. What is his background? That was unfortunate, and she tried to weasel out of it, which made it worse. SB (01:13:43): I worked for a woman, Dr. Betty Menson, in my first job at Ohio University. She was very strong in working for the Equal Rights Amendment in Ohio. She worked at Ohio University, and I think she has passed on since I left the university. She worked very hard, and I remember the day as if it was yesterday, when I heard the, "Oh no" in the next room, because it had been defeated at the State House, in Columbus. SM (01:14:11): Yeah. SB (01:14:12): Why did the ERA fail? I know it passed in some states, but why is it that it will never happen? SM (01:14:21): Because the opposition to it was very clever in scaring people about its implications. They kept talking about unisex toilets. They said, "You will not have a separate men's or ladies’ room anymore." Somebody else would say, "Wait a second. First of all, have you ever flown an airplane? You have a unisex toilet. You have adjusted to it on an airplane." That is not a big issue. They were saying that you would have no distinctions between the sexes whatsoever, and that is nuts. People were afraid of it, and I think that now made a mistake in putting so much of its energy into the passage of it, but they did not know they were going to hit these. SB (01:15:08): I think Phyllis Schlafly was very strong on the other side, and she organized a lot of people to defeat it. Many people believe she was one of the reasons why it was defeated. SM (01:15:16): Well, she has had an interesting career. For somebody who was always championing the role of the stay-at-home wife, she did not stay at home. SB (01:15:23): That is right. When you look at the movement itself, the second wave as it stands right now, with the successes in the (19)70s, maybe some of the setbacks in the (19)80s or (19)90s, what have been the major accomplishments of the second wave of feminism? SM (01:15:43): That women can work, and have ambitions for career. That women can choose not to be mothers, or to postpone motherhood because of abortion rights. That women have been able to go into what is still called non-traditional work, which is, I think, one of the most important areas of work for women. I care less about a couple of CEOs who are women than I do about seeing women in and police departments, fire departments, bus drivers, train drivers. Those are the jobs that, so much more work has to be done there. The whole opening up of the sexual violence issues was our contribution. That was feminism in the (19)70s, we did that. We made it possible for women to speak up, and for men to understand that sexual assault was a crime. A lot of them still do not get it. The understanding that in war, rape is a very common crime, and that guys who commit rape in war are not psychopaths. They're ordinary young men who, under the cover of war, are acting out of some kind of machismo, because they can get away with it. The courage of a woman to leave a husband that batters her, that is a woman's movement accomplishment. I was called for jury duty last week, and there was a case that none of us wanted to catch, it was very interesting. Nobody wanted to catch it. New York State has a new rule that after a sexual offender, a predator of children, after a child predator has served his term, the state can now put him in a mental facility, obviously to keep him away from children, but also because the state has decided that he is a compulsive molester of children. There was a case, and I think it was the ACLU that was arguing against this continuation of his sentence. It is really a continuation of the sentence. Nobody wanted to serve on this case. We did not want to hear the details, because everyone said, "Lock him up, and keep him locked up," that was the feeling of most everybody. When everybody was being voir dire'd, one after another said, "My girlfriend was raped when she was very young. My sister had an experience. My uncle turned out to be a child molester." People were pouring out this stuff. Nobody would have said this years before. SB (01:19:19): Thank God. SM (01:19:19): It was amazing. Nobody wanted to sit impartially on a jury that was to determine whether the state had a right to put this guy in another lockup facility. We all did. SB (01:19:36): We talked about the sexism that took place within... I know that the Civil Rights movement was rampant, and probably if Dr. King were alive today in his (19)80s, he would be embarrassed by it, but he would have talked a lot earlier on this subject. When we were talking about the movements that took place in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, all of them, I can remember in 1970, when Earth Day was organized, Gaylord Nelson met with members of the moratorium in (19)69, to make sure we were not stepping on their toes, that we were linked, and we were in unity. We both care about ending the war, and we both care about the environment. It seemed like in those days, and again, maybe through the early (19)70s, when you had an anti-war rally, when you had a women's movement rally, when you had a gay and lesbian rally, an environmental rally, you saw signs from all these organizations there in unity, caring for each other's cause. One of the criticisms today is that all these movements have become special interest. They are on their own, they are independent. I know I have talked to some of the gay and lesbian leaders, and they have agreed, this is one of their problems. It is an issue in that community, and they cannot even get people to have a song to sing, which was so important in the movement, "We Shall Overcome" in the Civil Rights Movement. David Mixner, when I talked to him, he said, "It is frustrating, because we proposed that we need to have some songs that we all sing, and no one wants to do it. It is like we are talking to the wind." What I am getting at is, do you think that is part of the problem of all the movements today, just not the women's movement? They have become single issue, special interest, and they do not work with the other movements. SM (01:21:29): I have two things to say. One is that the labor movement of (19)30s had folk singers who made up songs to them. The Civil Rights Movement had a spiritual base of songs to rely on, and just change a few words. The women's movement never had songs, and as you said, the gay and lesbian movement never had songs. Songs do not always accompany a movement, that would be the one thing to say. What was the other thing? Oh, the special interest. The amazing thing about the Civil rights movement, and the women's movement, was that our issues were not issues that these larger umbrella groups could successfully address. When we had so-called vanguard parties, talking about the Socialist Party, Communist Party, Socialist Workers party, they claimed to speak for everybody. "We cover all the issues," but they did not. They basically covered the issues that White males felt were important. In terms of civil rights, I would not knock the Communist Party in its effort on civil rights, but their strategies failed. It was an indigenous Civil Rights movement that came out of the South that made the difference. A movement not beholden to these embracive, inclusive, grand vanguard parties of the left. Since then, it has worked that you take your individual issue and you make that your focus, because those other groups never did. They never did. SB (01:23:23): One of the heroes, really, of (19)64 was Fannie Lou Hamer. SM (01:23:26): Yeah. SB (01:23:27): Here is a woman who was really- SM (01:23:29): Very religious. SB (01:23:30): She was not known, and then, she went to that convention, and Johnson was checking up on her and everything she was saying back in (19)64. SM (01:23:40): Sure. She was a sharecropper in Ruleville, Mississippi, and tremendously religious. SB (01:23:47): I know it is hard to do this, but when you look at the Boomers now, you are older than the Boomers, but almost 40 percent of the people I have interviewed were born before (19)46, but they have lived during the times of the Boomers. SM (01:24:03): We are very grateful to the times that allowed us to make a contribution. SB (01:24:08): Do you have any thoughts on the Boomer women in particular, as opposed to say some of the more recent women, the younger women that have come on college campuses or in society? SM (01:24:18): No, I am not the person to ask that question of. SB (01:24:20): Any strengths or weaknesses that you think the generation has, both male or females? SM (01:24:26): Women today, and I feel it is another defeat for feminism... my students, let us just talk about the young people that I am in contact with, and the young people I see in the street. They seem to have fallen for some of the traps that we, (19)60s and (19)70s feminists thought we had settled. You do not wear six-inch heels. What is this with pushing your boobs up and forward? You are looking like a tart. This whole business that fashion contributed to, of women looking like babes, "You have to look like a babe," is a big step back, I feel. A big step back. SB (01:25:21): The Boomers were not really into that. SM (01:25:23): Not at all. People began to dress casually for the first time. SB (01:25:30): Do you have any overall thoughts on the generation itself, those people born between (19)46 and (19)63? SM (01:25:38): No, that is what you are going to do. SB (01:25:42): When did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, and when did it end? SM (01:25:46): I think it began on February 2, 1960, when those four black students who were quite religious sat in at a local Woolworth in Greensboro. Was not it Greensboro, North Carolina? But, now that I have been doing some reading lately, and I have been thinking about the Montgomery Bus Boycott, and the Tallahassee Bus Boycott, Tallahassee was student initiated, unlike Montgomery, which was Rosa Parks initiated. Maybe it should start in (19)55, which would be a year after Brown versus Board of Education, which was the first time- SB (01:26:39): In (19)54. SM (01:26:39): Yeah. It takes a while. SB (01:26:47): A lot of the people of my era, and my college years, felt they were the most unique generation in American history. There was this feeling they were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. SM (01:26:57): Yes. SB (01:26:58): We were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, bring peace to the world, change it like it has never been before. Be more different than anybody that preceded us, and anybody that will follow us. SM (01:27:11): What happened? What do they say now? SB (01:27:13): Well, that is my question. SM (01:27:15): It is your question to raise and your question to answer. SB (01:27:21): The majority of people that I have been interviewing think that is a ridiculous, arrogant statement to make. A lot of people have said, either the generation is arrogant for thinking it, or that some people just do not believe in generations like Boomers, which is happening all the time. They just do not believe in what they call the Greatest Generation, Boomer generation, Generation X. They do not believe in that stuff. It is about a period of time, in decades or even years. There is a lot of people saying that as well. Those that do say unique are those, in many respects, that were very involved, and they have just never been as involved as they were then. It was just great memories. It's a combination of a lot of different things. SM (01:28:10): You are asking, what happened to it as a generation? Why did not it continue? I can speak to that. SB (01:28:17): Yes. SM (01:28:18): But, not as a member of it. SB (01:28:18): Yes. SM (01:28:19): Because of something we have not discussed at all, is that there were so many casualties of the Boomer generation, and it did have to do with drugs and rock and roll. A Hell of a lot of icons were dead before they were 30, and I am sure Charlie talked about that. SB (01:28:42): Yes. SM (01:28:43): That is his subject. It is not mine, but I am aware of it. I cannot believe the number of people who just died from an overdose. SB (01:28:58): I think what is happening, it is a book that needs... forget about the big names, like Jimmy Hendricks and Janice Joplin, how many young people just died? I know two in particular from my community who, because of drugs, they did not live very long. SM (01:29:13): Really? SB (01:29:17): That is back in the Ithaca, New York area. I was born in Cortland. SM (01:29:23): Oh really? Apple country. SB (01:29:25): My dad was transferred down to Binghamton, because he was a Prudential salesman. We lived in a community called Lisle, New York. I do not know if you have ever heard of Lisle, it was on the way between Cortland and Ithaca. I only mentioned that because I know you moved to Cornell there. SM (01:29:43): Yeah. SB (01:29:44): I have relatives there. Everybody has a different answer to this question, so far. SM (01:29:52): I think that many people experimented with freedoms in the (19)60s that they were not prepared to cope with. One was a lot of sexual experimentation, and they were not prepared for it. I have interviewed people who have talked about how, on the college campuses, the head of their department suggested that they all have a group sex thing to get to know each other better, and a lot of people could not take that sort of stuff. A lot of people tried drugs, and then went too far with them. The first thing that I noticed in the press, because they're very quick to sound in-depth now, was that they started to talk about themselves and say, "Boy, I remember my days in the (19)60s, when all I did was smoke dope and stare up at the ceiling, and say, "Wow-wow, wow." Suddenly, that became a popular portrait of the (19)60s. Now, I did not know anybody who smoked that much dope that they looked up at the ceiling and said, "Wow-wow, wow." The (19)60s began to be tarnished very early after, by the Reagan era. People were dis-remembering it. They were remembering it as a time when everybody was just flaked out on drugs, and I do not know why they did that. I just do not know why they did that. Probably they were just doing some colorful writing, but certainly it was in the news magazines, that I would start to read these reminisce. Those who were enemies of the changes of the (19)60s quickly grabbed onto it, and there's a time when very few voices were raised in supportive of the (19)60s. That documentary that Charlie and I are in together, done by Oregon PBS, that is rare. SB (01:32:21): Which one is that? SM (01:32:23): It is called "The (19)60s." He did not tell you? SB (01:32:27): Well, I interviewed him four or five months ago. I bet I have had about 70 interviews. SM (01:32:32): That is why he mentioned me, because we are stars of it. They chose him because of his book on the (19)60s, and also because he is a gay man, and he talks eloquently. They chose me as the feminist for that documentary, and I remember, after we both saw it on PBS, we called each other, because we used to be friends. We are not friends, we just do not know each other anymore, but we called each other and said, "You were good." "You were good." It has been shown a lot on PBS lately, because these blessed people in Oregon actually got a documentary done called "The (19)60s" that is pro-(19)60s, and that includes the women's movement. SB (01:33:18): I think I own that. SM (01:33:20): Look at it again. SB (01:33:21): I have to look at it. SM (01:33:22): It will give you heart. That is why Charlie thought of me, because we are linked in this wonderful documentary that is now as staple on PBS. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Susan Brownmiller Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Brownmiller, Susan ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Feminists; Authors; Brownmiller, Susan--Interviews Description An account of the resource Susan Brownmiller is a feminist activist and author. During the Feminist Movement, she was a writer at ABC-TV. When she saw how much power women have, she began to write about abortion rights. She has written and published books that highlight the hardships women face and how they came to be. She attended Cornell University and studied Acting in New York City. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.30 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 94:01 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/746e0e4ea16151fd8be36b3b636141aa.jpg a9b52159bca4537d09179dff56cdcc8d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c0024555d5db98fb83571e496f22849e.mp3 9844b63db1f037b916adf6373b9e352a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lee Edwards, 1932- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Lee Edwards is an author, educator and a leading historian of American Conservatism. He is a professor at the Catholic University and Chairman of a Victims of Communism Memorial in Washington foundation. He has appeared on many television broadcast and his books have been published in The Wall Street Journal, The Boston Globe and many more. Dr. Edwards has a bachelor's degree in English from Duke University and a doctorate inPolitical Science from Catholic University. He also holds a doctor of humane letters degree from Grove City College and attended the Sorbonne in Paris for graduate work.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:8401665,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10,&quot;26&quot;:400}">Dr. Lee Edwards is an author, educator and a leading historian of American Conservatism. He is a professor at the Catholic University and Chairman of a Victims of Communism Memorial in Washington foundation. He has appeared on many television broadcasts and his books have been reviewed in the <em>Wall Street Journal</em>, the <em>Boston Globe</em> and many more. Dr. Edwards has a bachelor's degree in English from Duke University and a doctorate in Political Science from Catholic University. He also holds a doctor of humane letters degree from Grove City College and attended the Sorbonne in Paris for graduate work.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Counterculture; Tom Hayden; Woodstock; Jerry Rubin; Young Americans for Freedom; Civil Rights Movement; Baby Boomers; Feminism; Activism; Richard Nixon; Jimmy Carter; Lyndon B. Johnson; Eugene McCarthy; Hubert Humphrey; John F. Kennedy; Gerald Ford; Black Panther; Muhammed Ali; Daniel Ellsberg; George Wallace; Robert McNamara; The Beatles; Janis Joplin; SDS&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Counterculture; Tom Hayden; Woodstock; Jerry Rubin; Young Americans for Freedom; Civil Rights Movement; Baby Boomers; Feminism; Activism; Richard Nixon; Jimmy Carter; Lyndon B. Johnson; Eugene McCarthy; Hubert Humphrey; John F. Kennedy; Gerald Ford; Black Panther; Muhammed Ali; Daniel Ellsberg; George Wallace; Robert McNamara; The Beatles; Janis Joplin; SDS</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 112:41 Subject LCSH Authors; College teachers; Historians; Edwards, Lee, 1932--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Lee Edwards Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So Date of interview: 7 August 2003 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:11 SM: This is working properly, and I know it is. When you think of the (19)60s and the (19)70s? And what-what is the first thing that comes to your mind? When you think of that era? 00:20 LE: Well, for me, it would be the rise of the right. And I have to warn you that I am going to be giving a class I am teaching a class at Catholic University starting in three weeks, on the politics of the (19)60s, really happy to say that it is oversubscribed, and I had to put a cap on it. And what I am going to be doing with these with these students, their politics majors is the Department of Politics. They are Catholic, and I am an adjunct professor, and have been for 16 years now. They are Catholic, is to present both sides of the picture. I mean, normally, they hear about John Kennedy, they hear about SDS, they hear about the Port Huron state, but they hear about Dr. King, they hear about the civil rights, movement, revolution, and so forth, all of which is certainly very much important in history. But what I am going to give them is the other side, not only rise to the left, but the rise of the right, and that is Barry Goldwater, Young Americans for freedom to share instinct, Ronald Reagan being elected governor, and so forth. So to me, that is the great untold story. But most historians political story, as is the rise of the right during the 1960s. 01:39 SM: So, when you think of the (19)60s, what do you think of? Yeah, that was thinking, you know, and since you raise a very good point, because there is a book that has come out in the last two or three years, to actually paperback, it is the Young Americans for freedom and your involvement in the antiwar movement, and they were real big antiwar. So that is great that you are doing that, when in the boomer generation is really defined as a group born between 1946 and 1964. Oftentimes, you find that a lot of the people that were the leaders of some of the protests were actually two, three and four years older, born in the early (19)40s, or (19)42. Around that time, when you look at the boomer generation, just your thoughts on some of the criticisms, the middle level they have over the years, by the likes of George Will, Newt Gingrich, that basically a lot of the things that are wrong in America today are because of what the boomers did during the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Particularly the drugs, the issues of sex, a counterculture? You know, I just liked your thoughts on- 02:46 LE: Well, I think it is, I think it is a little bit I think it is true, up to-to a point we would talk about, for example, the design of the counterculture and a turning away from the-the philosophical and moral moorings, which-which existed before that there was a narcissism, there was a radical emphasis on-on I, on me, the so called me generation, and so called, feels good, do it. So, I think that is, it is valid, that that that many in the boomer generation were, were guilty of an excessive self-centeredness, and narcissism and willingness to-to experiment in all kinds of ways, without perhaps, giving too much thought to-to the consequences. At the same time, I do remember one thing incident this, participate in 1968. I was at the Democratic Convention in Chicago. And we were there my wife and I, because we just read the book called you can make the difference and we were promoting the book and as a conservative how to do it political action. And everybody was-was-was in a good humor. I mean, the cops the Chicago cops were in a good humor or and the people that we met in the streets were in good humor, and even the young people when we met and we were there and talking with them on the streets and so forth. They could humor what was what happened was that a certain group of leaders, radical leaders, radicalized the, the young people there, deliberately provoked the cops into using excessive force, and brought about the chaos of the Democratic Convention and we will just never forget was his extraordinary difference between the mood before the convention And then what happened during the convention by what I think were professional revolutionaries, whether you are talking about what was his name, David Dellinger, Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman Tom Hayden. And Tom Hayden certainly was very much a, a professional, political revolutionary for any Davis landed and really knew what he was doing. And that was to try to radicalize these young people. And they succeeded. So, I do not want to I do not want to put all of the blame. Simply on-on-on the baby boomers themselves, I think they were used and manipulated by-by certain people, at times, at times. And certainly, I can attest to that in my own personal experience in (19)68. 05:46 SM: When you look at the boomer generation, at the time of (19)68, when boomers are obviously in their youth, late teens, early 20s, and how you reflect on today, in the year 2003, what were your thoughts in that (19)68, about that generation? And what are your thoughts today has changed or is pretty consistent? 06:03 LE: I think, probably (19)68, we were my wife, and I were probably a little bit in despair when they know what was going to happen to America with these young people. Whether it was Woodstock, or was the counterculture whether it was what we thought was being so unpatriotic by their opposition to the war. And so many other ways, and but I am always something of an optimist. And so I was hopeful, prayerful that maybe they would mature in time. And I think that was what has happened. I mean, we know the examples of Jerry Rubin becoming a stockbroker and other leaders of the so called the Chicago seven, who became less radical, with the exception of Tom Hayden. as they got older, as they got married, as they began raising children, they were saying to their kids are having second thoughts who want to do drugs, forgetting very convincingly that they have been doing drugs and doing sex in the (19)60s, so-so time and maturity, and experience has as changed, I think they have changed the boomer, large parts of the boomer generation. 07:27 SM: The boomers, some again, I was young at that time, I can remember conversations and all they were all over the country and read them in newspapers. And that is that boomer generation thought they were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society that they were going to be, they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, that there is the most unique generation in American history. Just wait, because you will see what the good things, we are going to do your thoughts on that kind of an attitude that they had at that time? And whether they have done it? 07:58 LE: Well, you know, young people, left or right, are always idealistic. They always think they can change the world. And I think it is good that they have that, that those feelings, but otherwise the world would not get changed. I think certainly we on the right. And I was a little bit older than some of the people you are talking about on the right. But certainly, we did change the world through the-the-the nomination of Barry Goldwater in 1964, which led to the election of Ronald Reagan in 1966, as governor of California, which led to his election as president in 1980. So I think that you can it can be argued that Young Americans for freedom did set out to change the country, and it did. Now, the baby boomers did do some good things. I think that their part in the civil rights revolution, and the Civil Rights Movement was an epic victory. For-for-for America, not just for blacks, but for all-all Americans black or white, or brown or a red or what have you. And I think they deserve full and adequate, a full-full credit for that. And some of the other areas. Not so, so happy about their-their impact on our politics. You know, the so called Vietnam syndrome, which affected our foreign policy for a number of years. The counterculture which we are still struggling with, what is the right balance? I think also that the baby boomers deserve credit for the initial women's movement because women were not being treated fairly and even handedly. My wife, who was a conservative was also a feminist. He was a conservative feminist in the (19)60s because she said that she was not getting equal pay for, for the same for the job that she was doing, that men were getting more or getting more for. Then, of course it got became radicalized in succeeding years. But I think in those two areas, the feminist movement and the civil rights movement, that the movers did make salutary contributions to American society. 10:34 SM: Do you feel that the term I was talking about full Miranda, and an activist, as I as I define an activist, a person who believes that he or she can make a difference in this world, he did not even throw the politics out here. You can just say, activists or just liberals or conservatives or whatever. Now the concept of activism was I was see something was very strong within the boomer generation. As a person was raised children, what are your thoughts on the activism of the boomers have they passed it on to their kids? Number one. And number two, is the whole concept of empowerment. The lot of the boomers are involved in activist protests or whatever that were head of, that we were not up to create violence, but we are really sincere and moral in their efforts, believe they can change things. And just your thoughts on that. 11:32 LE: Well, obviously, I for political activism, I was a political activist myself in the 1960s. So, I think that the boomers? Well, as I said, I think it is important, I will keep saying it over and over again, we are not only all liberal, there were many-many conservative boomers. Right. And I think that is a very important point we have to keep making here that the boomers were not all at one particular philosophical hue. There were conservative boomers, as well as liberal voters. And they were active in American freedom as well as SDS that is making in my class, they became activists, because their fathers and mothers were-were not they-they-they came out of having won World War II. But we had some experience, even in the Great Depression, they were concerned about, you know, making a living, starting a family, having a building a house, buying a house. But you know, the good life, the American life American dream. The Boomers came along and had the luxury of political activism because it meant to worry where the bread was coming from and have to worry about a job. So they took advantage of that. And as I say, we were able to do good as well as not such good things for our, for our country, have they passed that along to their children. In any generation, any one generation are only going to have five or 10 percent of the of that generation, they are going to be active as politically activist, it was a higher percentage in the (19)60s, with the boomers because of the Vietnam War, primarily. And then also, a second one, second contributing factor was the civil rights. So those two things combined to increase the level of participation, from probably 10 percent to I have seen some figures in low 20s 20 to 25 percent. On the campus. 13:55 SM: I know that term that is often used numbers is 15 percent of the students are involved in some sort of activity now students, young people, college students, were involved in some sort of an activism. And some of the critics say only 15 percent of 70 million people were really involved in in any corner of activism. That is a lot of people still, you know, consider most time. Quick question here. And this is just a general question of concern. I have not gone to reach them that folder is are you concerned as an educator about the-the inability of our young people to vote? And the fact is, do you feel this is in any direct way, a feeling of a sense of lack of empowerment that their voice does not count? So why do it. and it is and-and having the parents who were the people who were supposedly activists and talked about the importance of their voice being heard, not passing this on again to their children? 14:55 LE: Well, again, I we have never had high as high percentage of political involvement as the as the utopians want. And, and if, if the figures, you know, we have all seen these figures were 50, or 60 percent, or something like that, and turnout for elections and so forth. That was at a time when we did not have as many people as we have today, when we did not have the kind of situation where we have a lot of Hispanics who do not vote, or we have a lot of African Americans who do not vote and a variety of reasons for that. So, I do not I do not think I mean, if you were to look at the number, probably of the children of the boomers as separate, apart from the various people who come in through immigration, I think you will find that the percentages are about the same. I may, I maybe I am being too wrong about this. But I that is, that is my impression, and there are a lot of political activists, but to to-to-to engender political activism, you must have causes, you must have issues, which will activate people. And we just simply do not have those same kind of overriding issues that we did. Back in the (19)60s, for example, those people who had the most people, the mobilization people against the war in Vietnam, following the not so much 911. But that poll period, they are leading up through Afghanistan, and then Iraq, you did have a number of people demonstrating against those of conflicts and, and are getting involved in, but the numbers are much smaller. And why was that? Well, one obvious reason was the no one was going to be drafted from Harvard, or Yale or Wisconsin to go fight in Afghanistan or Iraq, because we do not have the draft anymore. We have a volunteer army. And that was one of the major factors in motivating young people to get active in the 1960s. They did not want to go to fight and perhaps die in Vietnam, which was a very real possibility, through the draft. 17:28 SM: One of the important issues of that particular period, obviously, with the anniversary of Watergate, which are going through right now, is supposedly lack of trust that a lot of the boomers had in anyone in position of leadership, I can remember, again, on a college campus, they would even listen to a minister, if anyone was in a position of authority to not be the university president of the United States or United States senator or congressman, it could be the head of a corporation, anybody who was quote, labeled a leader, including ministers. And in the trust factor, I, I worry about this as a person, I am going to start with that folder, because I have worked with college students that I think need to trust people. I can remember psychologists telling me in a class once that people who cannot trust me not be successful in life, you have got to have some people in trust. Do you feel that boomers, you know, you cannot define an entire 70 million people but that in some respects, the things that happened in the in their youth, the negative effect that it had on them, whether it be Watergate, or the Vietnam War, or a lot of other things? They just did not trust anyone in leadership has been passed on to their kids. And so that was we have an ongoing problem on the issue of trust in America. 18:45 LE: I think it is a very valid question. And the way I the way I put this I have written a little bit on this is that I think that Americans, generally and baby boomers specifically were traumatized by the period from about 1963 through about 1978, (19)79, starting with John Kennedy's assassination, then the Vietnam War, then the murders of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy in 1968. Then Watergate and Richard Nixon aligned to the American people and using illegally unconstitutional the powers of his office to cover up his unlawful actions. And then finally, Jimmy Carter's inept handling of the presidency in the late in the late (19)70s. Culminating in his trying to blame the American people for what was going wrong going on rather than themselves. It was the public the public's melees that was to blame not his own being taking the-the letting the economy spiral into his Your unemployment rates and interest rates and all the rest of it. So, I think that was what I call a, a psychological depression through which Americans and particularly baby boomers suffered and endured during those 15 years or so. And that it was only with the election of Ronald Reagan that we began to come out of that, through his optimism, his vitality his repeating to the best of people of using some of the same techniques of his favorite President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, to lift up the spirits and, and to rephrase the only thing to fear but fear itself and-and Reagan's idea that the best days are yet to come, I think resonates with the old FDR rhetoric. So that that has been a problem which we have had to deal with. Yes, I think that has been inevitable that the baby boomers have passed that on to their children. 21:05 SM: When you look at the Vietnam War, and the ending of that war, what do you think were the one or two most important reasons why the war ended? Was it because of the antiwar movement, like many people believe on college campuses that by constantly protesting and maybe Americans aware? Or was it when bodies start coming home in middle America start protesting against the war? 21:28 LE: Well, I think initially, it was the-the protests, which-which forced the issue onto the, into the front pages, and maybe people pay attention to it. But we have to remember that. Up until January of 1968, most of the polls showed a solid majority of American people handling and supporting rather the-the Vietnam War was with the Tet Offensive, which was the real shocker, and which just stunned not only American people, but also members of Congress, and also the median voter pride cake, made his famous trip to Vietnam, came back and said, look, we really ought to get out of Vietnam. And LBJ is alleged to have said, well, you know, if we have lost bought a private kite, and we have lost the war, or words to that effect, we have lost the man in the street. So that on top of that, you have the ever increasing numbers of Americans being drafted you then you had the number increasing numbers of deaths, we had the realization that he had been lied to as to who was winning the war. And so all of these things came together. And people said, in effect that is enough. 22:53 SM: When you get into the war itself, the whole concept of healing to as a nation. Your thoughts on the impact of the Vietnam Memorial was- had, obviously it has had impact on Vietnam veterans and their families, and the warriors who fought and died in that war. But what effect has it had on the nation as a whole? And secondly, do you think that a lot of members of the boomer generation are having second thoughts about that serving? Or having second thoughts about? It is like, all I can say is, it is like a child or young children with their parents at the wall and the parent and the child looks up to the dad and says, “Dad, what did you do during the war dad?” It is, just it is a thought that is that do you think there is some, do you think there is a problem with healing within the nation with respect to this particular war and what it did to our nation at tour nation apart? So within the psyche of the boomer generation, and also in the body politic of the country? 23:59 LE: Well, I think first of all, that the Vietnam Memorial has-has-has helped the healing, no question about it. That is one of the most popular memorials here in Washington, DC. It is very touching to see, particularly veterans and their families and the survivors that come there, and the names, touch the wall and so forth. So, I think it has been tremendously important in the healing process. But I do think, though, that the-the scars of that war are still there with the baby with the baby boomers who oppose it at the time. Some of them probably have just said, oh, well, let us let us move on. I think some still think it was an unjust war. They still think it was the wrong war. They still think that we should not have been involved and I think that will always be there. So, I think, at least certain leaders that I have that I have heard or the interviews that they have given, they certainly have not regretted their opposition-based database for me to post to it. 25:22 SM: One of the one of the interesting scenarios during that period is the fact that Dr. King spoke up against the war as a civil rights leader took a lot of courage. Even that phone wreck, he mentioned it was a great interview, talked about the moral leadership of Dr. King, he was a moral man, he is problems like a lot of people have personally been more a leader. But I would like your thoughts as obviously personnel who is going to be teaching a course on what curries it takes for an African American leader of that magnitude to be against the war when he was criticized by his peers. And it was at that very same period of lack power mill was taking place and they were looking at people like King Ruston, Farmer young in the red Wilkins, is your time has passed. Just your thoughts on Dr. King's antiwar stand? 26:10 LE: Well, I think I have to divide that Dr. King's legacy. And the two parts number one, I think as the as the leader of the civil rights movement, and standing up to people like O'Connor and other bigots and racists like that. I think he showed extraordinary leadership. He was certainly somebody I looked up to, as a matter of fact, other line by conservative I was there at the March on Washington, in 1963. Here in Washington, DC, I wanted to be there and want to see what it was like feeling. And I was deeply touched to move by, particularly by his, by his speech by his dress. So, I think without his leadership, without his example, that we would not have had the-the advances that we did, we would have had the Civil Rights Act of 64 W. H Rights Act of 1965, and so forth. I am not so sure about his opposition to the Vietnam War. I do not know. I am not quite sure why he did it. Was it out of moral conviction? Or was it an attempt on his part, to sort of show more radical young blacks that he could take a-a strong position on a more current issue? I did not, I do not, my recollection is he did not seem to be as comfortable and as convincing in that role, as he was in his earlier role as a civil rights leader, well, maybe that is unfair to him. And-and I do not want to in any way, denigrate him, or diminish his try to diminish his-his extraordinary contributions in the first part of that decade. 28:23 SM: When I read some of the reasons, I believe there is, I think, two speeches that he gave two major speeches on Vietnam, one of the Riverside Church in New York City, I have copies of them. And some of the people sent me that he actually gave a third speech, Vietnam, Rabbi Heschel, I believe was a very important person persuading him to-to go against the war. And I am trying I do not know if anybody has written biographies on Rabbi Heschel, but I am looking for the-the impact and I might have to go to the Jewish center to find that out because he had a tremendous influence on Dr. King. I do not know that story on Vietnam. I am going to go into some names of the period here and just your comments and reactions to them and I am going to come back and have two or three final questions. Your thoughts on Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. 29:11 LE: Oh, golly, golly coffee Well, I you know, I just think Jane Fonda cause such extraordinary pain and anguish and, and real harm to our, to our fighting men. And also, to the POWs if you read some of what John McCain said about devout Jane Fonda it was- she refused to, to be honest about what she saw in the POW camps in the north, and I never have been able to forgive Jane Fonda for what was as close to an act of treason as I think you can get. Tom Hayden, I think it was a professional, agitator, radical and always with-with a definite cause in mind, whether whatever he said or whatever he did and that I am I am very pleased that he failed because I think he would have taken America in the wrong direction. 30:17 SM: The yippies, the two people, you all think of are Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. 30:22 LE: Yeah. Right. Well, I think they were entertainers. I think that they were engaged in shock tactics. I do not know that they ever took the revolution that seriously, but Hayden did. Lanny Davis do they were serious revolutions. 30:53 SM: I am going to interject a story here. I am going to change the tape. Just a couple of names here, Lyndon Johnson. 31:08 LE: Well, Lyndon Johnson was, was a man of obsessions is obsessed with the idea 1964 of winning by the largest margin ever in presidential politics and besting his mentor, Franklin Delano Roosevelt's margin over Outland, in 1936. And that was why he said and did the really reprehensible things that he did say about Barry Goldwater, accusing him of somebody caring about nuclear Armageddon, and then destroy Social Security and all the other things that he said that he allowed his people to say about very cool water. He was also obsessed with the idea that he had to he had to win, quote, the Vietnam War, but he had to do it his way. And therefore, he kept trying to manage it. Not a military man. And all he did was to bring about the deaths of 10s of 1000s of Americans. He was also obsessed with the idea that he could, he could not be, he would not be corrupted by political power. But in point of fact, he-he was and was someone who used everybody around him, whether it was men or women or aide or mistresses, or all the rest of it, for his own personal satisfaction. aggrandizement has been one of the one of the most personally reprehensible men we have ever had in public office, certainly in the White House. He Did one. One good thing. And that was the-the Civil Rights Act of 1964, or whatever x-x 1965. Great Society again, it was an obsession and this idea that he could make over and make a great society, just through spending money and his idea of management from the top. It was just this obsession is this grandiose utopian dream, it is. 33:39 SM: Bobby Kennedy. 33:44 LE: I think a man caught-caught by his name, caught by his family caught by his reputation, forced to probably to run for president and probably did not want to force to pursue that. That goal in the name of his brother in his family. I do not, I do not know what would have happened to him if he had gotten the-the nomination in in 1968. Just how, what kind of a campaign he would have run because he was beginning to show some appreciation for the private sector and some of his speeches. So, he was not as liberal as some people made him out to be or hoped that he would be a very dramatic person. I think. 34:38 SM: Eugene McCarthy. 34:42 LE: A brilliant iconoclastic again fiercely independent. A poet as well as a politician somebody who I think is not very easily put into a particular catalogue, or category rather, party or philosophy certainly made a difference in, in American politics through almost defeating Lyndon Johnson in New Hampshire. Without that Richard Nixon were not elected president in 1968. 35:32 SM: The bitterness between McCarthy and candidate Bobby Kennedy is very strong. 35:38 LE: Yeah. Well, Eugene was-was told by Bobby I am told that, you know, if you go, I will not. And then, after McCarthy almost spun to Hampshire, Kennedy, realizing just how vulnerable Johnson was got into it, and never forgave him for that to Catholics, by the way. 36:00 SM: George McGovern. 36:04 LE: Well, George McGovern, a, an ideologue who saw the error of his ways he certainly in his later years was not the same kind of pacifist and an anti-capitalist that he was running in 1972. 36:31 SM: Hubert Humphrey. 36:33 LE: The happy warrior, love to love politics, love to talk about politics, love to practice politics. Came out of the nonpartisan tradition of Minnesota, and got chewed up by the much superior, well-oiled political machine of the Kennedys and West Virginia, and then was humiliated by a by Lyndon Baines Johnson, as vice president, deserved better than he got. 37:06 SM: You think that if he if curiosity, if he had spoken up against Johnson against the policy that he might have won the election in (19)68 because he was coming on toward the very end in history books say that it said go on another week, he would have been an excellent, he was really- 37:25 LE: He might have the AFL CIO did a brilliant, magnificent job of almost winning the election in 1968. And it really turned out really turned to that neighbor coming on strong. And so it was Humphrey. Yes, that is, that is possible. Humphrey, who I think probably was-was worried about, you know, backlash among-among some Democrats. And maybe he could see that he was coming on strong, I thought he could pull it out without risking that possible division in the party. 38:05 SM: John Kennedy. 38:10 LE: Well, you know, it is so hard to think rationally about him. But we have learned so much about him. Since I, I know this in the (19)60s, and I had a chance to see him up close because I was a press secretary to the United States senator in the late (19)50s. And early (19)60s, and I saw Kennedy in action on the Senate floor. Close was closed some this is where you are and where I am. And he was he was charismatic. He was charming. He was, I thought, extremely intelligent. Dynamic. Just captivating loved us used to love watching him in the press conferences and enjoying him with those presidential press conferences. But a very flawed man, I am not talking about the sexual peccadilloes. But it was a certain, I think, weakness or a certain uncertainty there at the core, which showed in his non reaction to going up with a sense of direction of the Berlin Wall in his withdrawing CIA support of the Bay of Pigs operation and his ambivalence about the war in Vietnam. At the same time, he did show some true grit with the Cuban Missile Crisis. So I think hard to sum him up. Do not know what he would have turned out to be if he had run for the election? Whether you would have won one way you know that in October of 16 Free. Time Magazine did a poll of Goldwater versus Kennedy. And it was a near tie. Really? Yes. 40:11 SM: What do you think of John Kennedy? The critics that drew I just had to review debt to Jim Hilde. He is a professor at Temple University. He is a liberal professor. And he was mentioning that in the revisionists are all really hurt the Kennedy image. And then except- 40:30 LE: For people, right, except that the people I mean, whenever there is a public popular poll name, your favorite president, John Kennedy always winds up in the top three or four, someone just came out a month or so ago. 40:44 SM: But when you ask him, one of the terms that I always remember hearing about President Kennedy when he was a pragmatic politician, yes. So that, for example, when Harris Wofford or whoever Bobby Kennedy made the call, or Mrs. King made the call to get Dr. King out of jail. John Kennedy did it Bobby told was the right thing to do. And Harris was involved in it. But the question is, there was always the thought of the impact that would have on the southern politicians, but any even the how he responded to the March on Washington 63, when he worried about or maybe riot or something in the streets. And the effect that supporting the March on Washington would have been the effect on the south, the Democrats This is the question I am asked basically trying to get to is, did John Kennedy truly care about the black man. truly care? Or was this a pragmatic, just a pragmatic power? 41:42 LE: Yeah, I think I think it was strictly pragmatic politics. I do not think he truly cared about it. I think in that sense that Bobby Kennedy, later in that decade, showed more true caring and empathy with the with the plight of the African American. I think you are right; I think Kennedy was ruled by the by his brain, not by his heart. But I think Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy is coming more, or as rules very often by his heart is. 42:12 SM: Very-very good. I want you to talk about Barry Goldwater. He is the next version. 42:19 LE: Well, a very unlikely revolutionary. But he was, I mean, he was a college dropout, wrote a book. So 3.5 million copies, it was a son of a millionaire who liked to hang around and jeans and go unshaven and go down the Columbia River up in the Grand Canyon. A salesman but also global elite and fiercely in the idea of individual freedom and unlimited government. A guy with from knees and eyes who yet first his life flying airplanes during World War II. And somebody who just was determined that he was going to offer a choice not an echo in 1964 which is why he went to-to Tennessee and seven we have got to do something about this TVA sellable sell part of it often went out to South Dakota, great big plowing the contest and said we are doing the farm subsidies and went down to Florida and said we got to privatize at least part of social security. I mean, these are not, you know, pragmatic. 43:40 SM: Right. 43:44 LE: This was a man who said this is going to be a campaign of principles, not a personalities and just stuck to it. And as a result of that, although he lost badly, the-the election to Lyndon Johnson still provided a-an inspiration for all sorts of people to get into politics, including it folder, and add crane both who got into politics as a result of Barry Goldwater and who provided Ronald Reagan with the opportunity to make a TV address, which made him for the first time in this life, a national political star and- 44:27 SM: I was I saw my home on TV. 44:31 LE: California, if it had not been for Barry Goldwater being the nominee, Ronald Reagan would not have made that speech and would never have become the, I think the governor of- 44:42 SM: Richard Nixon. 44:44 LE: Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde brilliant man, filled with insecurities filled with seething with animosities towards his enemies, resentful at the same time understanding you can trust a communist and only to be a communist. Somebody who loved his children and was fiercely loyal to his friends, but-but hated his enemies, test all kinds of combinations I think Jacqueline. 45:23 SM: Spiro Agnew. 45:27 LE: Oh man who was caught up in and sort of carried along by events. He was always sort of the, fortunately for him the right time to first become governor and then to become vice president. Again, personally and morally flawed individual who did not see anything wrong. And sitting there in his office in the White House, which is where the Vice President has office in those days and receiving a payoff in a brown paper bag from a Maryland lobbyist. I mean, it is just makes you want to shrink him in repugnance. 46:13 SM: Gerald Ford. 46:16 LE: Good man, honest man decent man did the right thing by pardoning Nixon a minor figure in American politics but did that one major thing which was the right thing to do. 46:31 SM: Some of the African American leaders, you already made reference to Dr. King with any other thoughts on Dr. King. 46:46 LE: I think truly one of the most inspiring Americans of the 20th century. 46:56 SM: How about Malcolm X. 47:01 LE: A reflection of the of the anger and resentment well justified of African Americans, somebody who seemed to be changing toward the very end of his life. And maybe might have made some very interesting contributions to better relations between-between whites and blacks in America tragically cut down. 47:35 SM: The Black Panther Party was a Huey Newton’s and the Bobby Seales of the world. 47:40 LE: Well, I am I am I am influenced by-by Horwitz Collier on that destructive generation so forth. I think these cynical power-seeking hedonistic opportunists who were using people did not really give a damn about-about African Americans. Just their own power, sexual and personal recommendations. 48:06 SM: How about the women's movement, the leaders Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem leader. 48:12 LE: I think any of them I think, the beginning of the movement, I think, as I said earlier, I think some of them have the right idea that women had were not being treated fairly and accurately in the marketplace. But I think it slipped away from I think a certain maybe a certain arrogance set in and then then all of a sudden they allowed the real radicals to take it over. I think alienated a lot of a lot of conservative if you vote conservative feminists and that is not an oxymoron, like my wife. 48:49 SM: How about Muhammad Ali? 48:52 LE: Cassius Clay, but yeah, yeah. Oh, I a sweet-sweet fighter. Somebody that you just need all of his with his grace and, and power and endurance to for that matter. 49:15 SM: Throughout the antiwar stand things. Yeah, a conscientious objector, seemed to be sincere in that. 49:21 LE: I think you are right to take that position. 49:24 SM: So, I am in Columbus side bid. He came and he was dethroned. And I was working at Ohio University at the time, came down to see him at a theater they paid him $3,500 to come and speak. And at the very beginning of the trailers for protesters outside against on a rally and he gave the $3,500 back to the local community that needed it for four in the city. He did not need the money. He gave three the cash back. 49:53 LE: I am not surprised. I have always thought he was very sincere. Somebody, man of conviction. I really, I was always my impression. 50:05 SM: Timothy Leary. 50:10 LE: Well, I think he probably deserved the hand that he got. I think that he misled so many people think the arrogance was pretty, pretty evident from the very beginning. And I think it is, it is, it is appropriate. He is really a minor figure in this whole story. We are talking. 50:40 SM: Daniel Ellsberg. 50:46 LE: Well, there-there is somebody who after signing a document, by violated it by stealing the documents, and then turning them over to the to the New York Times and The Washington Post and others in direct violation of his word. So, it is hard for me to feel much sympathy for a perjurer. He is an imposter. 51:23 SM: How about George Wallace? 51:27 LE: George Wallace was a at best, a cynical opportunity to opportunist and at worst, a bigot and a segregationist. He was-was a was a demagogue the way that he would appeal to the-the baser emotions into people. And I think he has been given more attention than he deserves as a major political figure of the time. 51:59 SM: Robert McNamara. 52:08 LE: Well, what can you say about somebody who said publicly that we are winning the war in Vietnam, and then at Georgetown party said that we were losing it? And then it has never been able to satisfactorily explain the dichotomy between these two positions should have a decent thing by this resigning the Secretary of Defense. 52:34 SM: John Dean. 52:41 LE: I vote pass on Dean. 52:44 SM: The music of the year, because the music of that period was so influential in the antiwar movement, whether it be the Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin as well I think if I Dylan's. 52:56 LE: Yeah, I think you have got to differentiate between the different kinds of whatever you are talking about, you know, hard rock and electronic rock or rock and you know, Joplin and Hendrix. 53:06 SM: Richie Havens. 53:09 LE: Those guys right now, I watched I went to so Woodstock at the movie. I did not go to Woodstock in person. And one sense it was fascinating. But to me it was also so it was it was not only chaotic, but it was an archaic and in a sense that he would say it was sort of the-the combination of the of the counterculture ethic and so three days of drinking and drugging and unprotected sex with people behaving more like animals than that human beings as opposed to that, I think that music would have to include you know, the-the Beatles would have to the Beach Boys would have to vote even-even-even Elvis. And then that kind of music is far different. 54:17 SM: Then I am pretty much done here. It is a couple questions at the very end, just your gut level reaction to these terms from the period SDS. 54:32 LE: Faux revolutionaries, F A U X. 54:37 SM: Counterculture. 54:43 LE: Hedonistic destructive self-destructive, destructive and self-destructive. 54:53 SM: Pentagon Papers. 55:12 LE: A chapter in American journalism. Which is not as-as salutary as many journalists think. 55:27 SM: Woodstock, I think we are covering may come off of the Beatles, John Lennon. 55:39 LE: I mean, I sort of liked the Beatles. I mean, I did not listen to him a lot by sort of like the Beatles. And then again, I did not know that those see in the Sky with Diamonds was, was a plug for LSD, which shows you how naive I am. 55:51 SM: But you know, when John Lennon died in 1980, and voila, Beatles he was the one that was the big anti-war. That is the one that Nixon did not like, and all the other kinds of things. You just some general individuals that were over in Vietnam, we in Westmoreland president to general Kochi, and Maxwell Taylor, certainly great names of people that ran the war in Vietnam. Well, I am going to change the tape here before we. Go, if you look at the Vietnam War, I think that is the question we were talking about we looking at the Vietnam War. What is the main reason that that war ended? 56:41 LE: I think the young played a very important role as they always do. If you want political and social change, you know you young are the place where it happens. And there is very little current anyone else can do to speed things up as the young want to be passive or just alienated. You know, there is no other source of truth unless you have a tense labor situation. And that would be the other example. Right now we have a situation in which people are afraid even to go out on strike, is there going to be replaced? We have people who are afraid to complain about their work conditions, because they will be downsized. The real thing about students is they not only have time on their side aside, but there are very few threats you can make against them. They are not, they are not in the system yet, in that sort of way. Now why did it take them that long? I do not know how many it was it was I mean, guys sign of the veritable obstinacy of the system, which is demonstrating itself again. These days, I- 58:11 SM: I want to go over again, talking about how important you say the students, the ministers are in a movement, because you were talking about that on the tape. And- 58:18 LE: I think ministers are very important, and they are paid to be moral. There. They make it possible for other people to do things. In other words, if you are in a congregation, and you may feel a certain way, but you do not feel like you have sort of a moral authority to do it. I mean, a lot of people do not. Whereas if the minister helps to bring some people out of their out of their shell in that regard. I have seen situations in which kind of nations on the other hand, I have been very restrictive on the ministers. 59:11 SM: Okay, one of the issues, again, is the issue of healing. I have had an opportunity to go to the Vietnam Memorial for the last couple of years that Veterans Day and Memorial Day ceremonies. And I like your thoughts on the importance that the wall has done for America, not only for Vietnam veterans, but for America itself. And on top of that, do you feel that there has been healing between not only within the Vietnam veteran generation but amongst those who were for and against the war? 59:45 LE: Ah, I suspect that the-the memorial has been the has had the strongest effect on those who were directly involved in the war or who had people friends, relatives who were, I have a friend whose name is about the 39th up there on the wall. However, I think what is sometimes called Healing is really amnesia and a simple time you know, there will be come a time when there will be nobody with any direct contact with Vietnam, at which point people will have a harder time relating to that wall. Versus they do-do a civil war monument in Gettysburg. And that is in the nature. However, as monuments go, it has, it has been an extraordinary one. I take people around town visitors around town, it is one of the places I always want to take them especially I want to take them at night because I think, as a special quality at nighttime. You enter it in the dark. 1:00:57 SM: Has there been healing between those who were for and against the war? The divisions were so- 1:01:04 LE: I do not think they even talk about it do they? I mean, it is not it is like, again, it is almost it is more a matter of it is no longer important. That is what is so absurd about war, in the first place is that you can kill 50,000 People of your own people and what was it 2 million of others? And then you-you know, a few years later, it no longer makes a difference. I am not sure I use the word healing. I mean, it is not a word that comes to mind. It certainly has lost its place in the semiosis fear no longer has the symbolic power at once did. And I cannot explain to my own sons what it was like what the fuss was about. And I suppose I lose have the same problem. I recall trying to understand how to how hard it was to relate in any meaningful way to my fact that my parents both lost brothers in the First World War. But that was a war that I had no connection with. On the other hand, I had a lot of connection with the Second World War in the sense that as a child in Georgetown, we did have blackouts and we had I stood on the roof and look for German planes and, and relatives would bring German insignias back from the war and my father was working for the government. So all those things added to it. And then after the war I went to went to France in the still in then in the (19)50s You know, maybe 10 years after the war. And there was still plenty of places which were shell marked. They were all over Europe and 10 years later, there were cranes I think the French word is grew these great big because literally they looked like cranes and Europe was rebuilding itself but at the same time you could see buildings that were still had all the marks of having bombarded and when you were in Paris, I remember this the number that what struck me was the number of men in wheelchairs so then I went back maybe 10 or 15 Later years later and there was nobody in wheelchairs in Paris and that is what happens if you do not have those experiences and it just cannot mean the same thing. 1:04:51 SM: Let Me- start again. Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. 1:04:56 LE: Yeah I always like Abbie Hoffman better than Jerry Rubin for two reasons. I guess first of all that Abbie Hoffman had a real sense of humor, which I related to and Jerry Rubin eventually sold out. Hartman was a bizarre and he was a, he was a- it was a truly eccentric character, and I guess maybe a little bit sad character in many ways. But he was he was sort of the sort of the spirit of the (19)60s. And I found out the other day that when I was at Harvard, I had been director, news director of the radio station at the time that that Fidel Castro came to America. And it was a, I was responsible for getting the-the broadcasts of Fidel Castro out from Memorial Stadium and went all the way down to Cuba and to Latin America. It was very exciting. And Fidel Castro went to the faculty club for dinner, and came out with his lieutenants and all the students were there clapping room that and then I interviewed one of his lieutenants at Hays big for telling you about all of these out in the mountains. Well, it turns out that Abby Huffman was at that Memorial Stadium speech that same night, which I think sort of- 1:06:25 SM: how do you feel about the suicide note that, that Abbie Hoffman left when he died in Bucks County several years back and supposedly said the note, no one is listening anymore. And I guess he only had about $2,000 in the bank, but you have given a lot of his money away and kind of civils involved and causes. But when I heard that, I thought, is that symbolic of a boomer, especially those that still care about the issues of that time that no one is listening anymore? He is just a symbol that. 1:06:57 LE: Yeah, well, you see, that goes back to what we were talking about earlier. If you are an existentialist, you do not expect anybody to be listening. I mean, it is you are engaging in and like Sisyphus, you are rolling a rock up the hill is going to roll back, but you still have no choice. You know, what is it the plague in which [inaudible] as the doctor who was taking care of people, even though that, you know, the plague, so far, as anybody knows, is incurable. That is a that would be the, I think the different from way I sort of approach it in a way that that someone like Abbie Hoffman might have approached it. And I do not know what that comes, what sort of experiences that comes out of, you know, where you help people end up having a different approach like that. And some people might say, hearing me speak, you know, wow, terribly depressing. What you have just said is, but in fact, I think it is tremendously optimistic because of sustaining I mean, if you, if you realize that it is not your is not within your power to determine the outcome of what you do, is only within your power to make the choice to do it. And, and so that you do not control history. You, you, you it is not, it is not within your privilege, to be born at the right moment. And I was talking to somebody the other day about how if, you know, was it better to have been in our 20s in the (19)60s, and have to live through all this shit afterwards? Or the other way around? You know, would we be happier if we had, you know, come into the (19)60s When we were 16? Now, the answer is probably no, because we would probably be like our parents and would not have liked it very much. We probably did the right thing, and we are now paying the right price for it. But in any case, it is it is nothing we can do anything about. So, Camus said somewhere that the-the-the only sin we are we are not permitted is despair. And I think that there were an awful lot of people who set up too large a fantasy. And I do not think it is wrong to have myths and hopes and dreams, but I think that they have to be within the context of knowing that it may not work out. And that way you-you continue to have the strength to keep trying let success come as a surprise rather than as a necessary standard by which you judge what you are going to do. 1:09:46 SM: Let me let you get that. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. 1:09:52 LE: Oh, I never paid that much attention to. I was never very much involved in all that. You know, I mean, that was not my (19)60s. I mean, I was, certainly was aware of it, but it was not it was not central to anything I did. 1:10:06 SM: How about Muhammad Ali? 1:10:11 LE: I was sort of I was sort of interested in because in the early (19)60s I had been in the when I was in the Coast Guard had been in Louisville and I was visiting Hugh Haney was a cartoonist there. And it was in the lobby of the Louisville courier journal. And here comes his young black guy doing all this crazy stuff. I said, Who else? And he said, well, that is a new fighter name, Cassius Clay. And so I met him. I did not meet him, but I saw him before he was famous. So, I do not remember what my reaction is whatever I would say would not be honest. Because I do not remember. But he was against the Vietnam. Yeah, I do not I cannot tell you what, what I thought of that. But I approved, but I did not leave a strong impression. 1:10:54 SM: How about some of the older individuals Dr. Benjamin Spock, the Berrigan brothers? 1:11:00 LE: I Like them. I-I-I in my local work, you see, the truth of the matter is because being in Washington, you got to see how things were organized, you know, the big demonstrations and, and the truth of the matter is, a lot of these things would not have gotten off the ground a lot without a lot of old leftists both locally and nationally. It was the old leftists some of them, I presume, were communists, who really put things together. They knew how to do it. And it is part of the story of the (19)60s that has not been told, because it was assumed that there were all these brilliant young people who staged these marches. Well, there were a lot of people who were, and you know, who went back all the way back to the (19)30s. You know, and had a lot of experience in this sort of stuff. There were lawyers say in town, like, like David Ryan, who was an old (19)30s National Lawyers Guild lawyer, people like a balloon folks like that. Now I like for a for a Seventh Day agnostic I have a I have a certain fondness for ministers. I do not like I do not like t-shirt very much, but I like ministers when they are good. And, and I think that the Bergen brothers, you know, sort of lent a good moral cast to the to the show, as the Duck Fuck. 1:12:40 SM: Some of the politicians of the era starting with John Kennedy and then his brother Robert Kennedy. 1:12:49 LE: Yeah. I covered the covered the hearings of the investigation into the teamsters union as a young radio reporter. And her is something I wrote recently about that. My radio days. Among those seated at the long panel table was young John F. Kennedy, Democrat from Massachusetts. His brother Robert served as a counsel for the committee. At one point a prostitute witness made some off color comment that bought brought guffaws from the audience and Bobby's own giggles were amplified by his mic. The humorless Chair John McClellan wrapped his gavel and told Kennedy. This is not a joking matter. It would be the only time I ever saw Kennedy look chastened. I was not particularly impressed by the Kennedys. They struck me as lightweights hardly in the same class with Humphrey and Dirksen. I wrote in a September 5, 1959, letter, quote, the Kennedy brothers like to remark about the Quakers came to Washington to do good and did very well. Jimmy Hoffa, who was a student of corrupt told me once in the midst of the racket’s hearings, Bobby Kennedy is trying to make headlines for his brothers so he can get into the White House, but he cannot find his way out of this room and quote, now that the labor reform bill is passed, one big source of Kennedy headlines has disappeared. Let us hope the Kennedys do likewise. That was what I wrote. 1:14:20 SM: Oh, wow. Well, that was (19)59. What are your What are your thoughts on Kennedy from 15? John Kennedy from (19)59, to (19)63. And Bobby certainly through 1968. 1:14:31 LE: Well, the best thing that Jack Kennedy did was to bring my wife from Wisconsin to Washington where I could meet her merrier. I mean, she was part of that generation that was, and by today's standard, it was an extraordinary group of people. She came to work for Gaylord Nelson of Wisconsin. And it was, it was a very-very exciting time, it was a time in which passion and commitment was not only favored, but you could get bills passed based on it. And so, Kennedy himself, I think, was not the myth that he was made out to be. Started, I think the tradition of what I call mob politics. And I think he paid a heavy price for it. You know, he won the election from all appearances by the assistance of the mob, and in Illinois, far too close to the really deeply corrupt side of politics, and I think started a precedent, which, like I say, may have resulted in his own death and certainly set a pattern for, for future politics. In my book, I have a chart of what I call mob politics or history of mob politics. And it starts with Jack Kennedy, in Illinois. And it my thesis is that for 30 years, our politics had been repeatedly interrupted by a variety of crooks. Freelancers out of controls, crooks and-and others that have distorted our-our political system, then so I do I do. You know, I blame him for that. Bobby Kennedy, I believe was-was a quite a repugnant character in his early days when he was working for McCarthy. But I think he was it would be in a category of very, very small category of politicians who actually improve with age. I have seen that very, very rarely. And I would have to say, even though I was a supporter of Jean McCarthy, by the time that that Kennedy was running for office, I you know, and I was I could live with that. I would find something here. 1:17:20 SM: Okay, we are into the area of civil rights, Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X. 1:17:26 LE: Okay, Martin Luther King, Jr. was one of the truly important people in my life and for a little bit eccentric reason is that I read stride towards freedom. While I was in college, and I was very-very moved by it, it was, it was perhaps the most important book I read while I was in college, even though it was not on any reading list. And what particularly moved me was that I was a product of a Quaker school, German ham friends in Philadelphia, and I had never really gotten to all the pacifism. stuff, it always seemed to me a lot of what the Quakers did seem very mushy, and I, and what Martin Luther King did for me, which was sort of unique was that, well, where I sort of connected with him was not just on the Civil Rights thing, but even more so on his description of his own struggles with pacifism and, and how he resolved them. And so that I came to know, King not as a civil rights leader, so much as but as a person who helped me think through some of my own problems, you know, which is an interesting experience in itself. Now, I would later learn things about the reality of King which, you know, as with everybody is not always what it appears, I mean, for example, everyone is very reluctant to get involved in Montgomery Bus Boycott initially. And in fact, it was a guy named Ed Nixon who was a member of the Sleeping Car Porters union called him up finally and said, you know, and I said, we want to use your-your church for meeting place, so Monday and King said, well, let me think about it. And a few couple days later, he called back and said, I made up your mind he was in King says, well, yeah, I think that will be okay says good because we have got 200 People coming. So, I mean, just that, you know, that sort of contrasts with the, with the popular image of and yet it also was a story. Yeah, I mean, I think it is a very common story of, of greatness inside. It does not-not just come, you know, burst out for I want to hear king with a girlfriend of mine at Howard University and I think 1960, who was speaking at Chapel. It was the first time I had ever done anything of a political protest, or I was a radio reporter here, I had covered the site covered sit ins, I had covered the sit ins and protests of that medical park. I had, you know, my girlfriend said, you know, I want to go here. And so we went and we, we got there a little bit late, and we had to sit outside, maybe there was a chapel was overflowing, and we sat outside and this beautiful day, listen to follow them quite closely, and I admired greatly. Malcolm X, I did not have that much consciousness. So frankly, I think Malcolm X has grown much larger and his depth and he was in his life. You are not meant to say that. But I think that is really true. I do not I do not recall, for example, being particularly conscious of Malcolm X as a factor in local civil rights. Things here in DC and this person, so biggest, most black city in the country Now may have been quite different in Chicago and New York, but- 1:21:56 SM: Would you, would you rate him I am sure, okay. Would you rate him like Bobby Kennedy in terms of one of those few individuals who kind of redeemed himself as he, as he got older because the last two years of his life, he no longer was going out and espousing the white man is a devil. He had been to Mecca and came back and Salva? 1:22:18 LE: I think there is that there is that element about it. And the other thing about Malcolm X was awkward relate to him is that he lived in Massachusetts, not far from Boston. And he was a musician. So I mean, I felt a feel sort of a companionship within there because I had that same period, I was at Harvard and a musician also. By but in terms of my own life, Malcolm X did not have hardly any influence. 1:22:50 SM: Could you comment on the Black Power advocates of that period? I always remember the scene of Dr. King was arms folded and Stokely Mark- Stokely Carmichael is speaking, saying that a new generation of black leaders is coming forth Black Power, Black Power, not the concept of Dr. King was all about, if you talk about the Stokely Carmichael's the H wraparounds. The Eldridge, cleavers, the Bobby seals, the Huey Newton's Angela Davis. The list goes on and on about the Black Power advocate like- 1:23:24 LE: It is like, it is like any politics. No. People spend a lot of time talking about a lot of interesting characters there are in politics that that are sort of interesting, but they are not necessarily over the long run, that they may just be sort of big players. Stokely Carmichael was clearly more than that. And as was Angela Davis. And the Panthers certainly had a big influence. On my feeling was that it was very often more anger than direction that the anger was-was-was well phrased, but the next steps were not, were not clear. And as I think I said in that article that you have got that I was, I was quite supportive of the Black Power movement made sense to me. I mean, I was an anthropology major, I understood what-what it was about. It did not it did not strike me as threatening or strange. And it did not, particularly it bothered me. What bothered me was not that that. STOKELY CARMICHAEL said the whites could no longer be in the civil rights movement. But that out of that post, riot period in this town, there was such a divide that came down between blacks and whites, which in many ways we have not recovered from. And, you know, there were I lost black friends just overnight. seemed like it was just because there was a whole different whole different paradigm moved into town. And there was nothing that one could-could do about that. And I do not know, you can say that it was wrong because it was not. I mean, the Black Power movement was right in its in its essence, but it like everything like that it has all sorts of spin off effects. The best civil rights leaders I ever knew, was a local one and never got a national attention guy named Julius Hopson Jr. Right there. And he was the head of the DC statehood party. He was he was a Marxist. Louise Hobson was a march within the status station. So he took a little bit different view of that he could always see the class element. And it was not just race. He did something extraordinary here in town, he went and he sued the DC school system for not spending equally in the various schools. And he pointed out as part of his argument, and while is maybe most dramatically illustrated in the comparison between black schools and white schools, you could also demonstrate it by comparing the middle-class black schools with the more black schools and was one his case. And we became, I believe, the only place in the country which dealt with all question of public schools and integration by saying that it was a, it was a money problem. And we did not live with not a busing was not done by busing. The only busing that occurred in in Washington DC occurred as a voluntary program at the suggestion of the of the school board. And in Montgomery County, and after a short experiment, the school board the black school board decided it was demeaning and stopped. Julia said had quite a different take on this thing. And he was strong enough though, to deal with Stokely Carmichael. He was a powerful, powerful guy, and-and-and was respected even though his particular form of civil rights activity was quite different. He, he said that this solution, for example, to the fact that nothing was being done about the rats in Northeast Washington was that he was going to collect the rats and trap them in and let them loose in Georgetown. And in fact, he only he only had a Volkswagen with one rack in a cage on top of it, but he sure got on the front page of papers for that. 1:28:33 SM: [Inaudible] Because there is any books been written on him? 1:28:36 LE: Well, no books, I wrote a book about Washington called captive capital back in 1974. And I have a few interesting pages on that. Tell that story. I tell the story about local department store which he was trying to integrate. And they, they said they, they, they could not really find any qualified negros. But as Julius Hopson could bring some qualified people with you, they would be glad to consider them. And he said he was not running any goddamn personnel program. But if they did not have some blacks hired in the next two weeks, he was going to boycott the store. And he was very well, I mean, he-he talked up but he was actually extremely well educated. And that was why he was able to pull something out like this school suit because he could do this. He could out data, his opponents and then one of my favorite stories, maybe I do not know what I still got the book here. Here this is Julius Hobson on the nature of the struggle and the struggle is and whether you like a Nigger-Nigger likes a cracker or white he is a pig or any of that stuff I have called people Why do you and pig in the FBI never said a word. All I have to do is put on a dashiki get a wig go out there on 14th Street and yell Whitey is a pig and I am going to take care of them, and the FBI will stand there and laugh at me. But the moment I start to discuss the way goods and services are distributed I start talking about the nature of the political system and I show that. It is a core area of the of the economic system. That is when the FBI comes in for a cat- for harassment. Can Black people ever win the fight for freedom, so long as they accept America's exploitive capitalism as the economic system within, so they must wage the battle? Black people have not confronted this question whether from a lack of understanding or of our economic and political systems or from an unwillingness to challenge them, their silence is a betrayal of the trust of the black people they purport to lead. This will tell you I mean, I mean, this was this was now in the 1960s and (19)70s. This was a black man who was standing up and saying these things and needs on a local black minister. I was asked to speak at his church one Sunday, I went over there. And when I went there, I looked over the congregation, I would say, the average person in their head, I own a pair of Tom McCann shoes that their suits cost an average of $35, a piece that their shirts were from hex basements. And they were very poor and very illiterate, almost illiterate, people who were emotionally shocked, just came to the church to let out this screen. The Minister took up a love offering, he took up a minister's travel offering. And then he took up a regular he took up five or six offerings. So when he got to me to speak, I got up and said, God dammit, this is Christianity. I want no part of it. And I said, this son of a bitch is stealing from you. And the thing is, he is not just stealing your money. He is stealing your minds. And I refuse to be part of this. And I walked off. 1:31:38 SM: What a character. Well, thank you very much. 1:31:39 LE: Some of the chapters are the chapter on race and on, you got a technique and the history on neighborhoods, we will give you a little feeling. 1:31:49 SM: We are going to have you sign this to definitely before you leave. Thank you very much. A couple of politicians. I know you would probably like to talk about Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon. 1:31:58 LE: Okay, Lyndon Johnson was a crook who became a good guy who ended up as a tragedy. And he was, you know, if you read the early life of Lyndon Johnson, that you see very little that is admirable about it. But for a brief moment, in the 19(19)60s, he was an extraordinary president. Whatever happened afterwards, whatever happened before, you cannot deny that. Joseph Conrad says somewhere that the difference between a hero and a coward is paper, thin heroes and cowards are people who, for one brief moment, do something out of the ordinary. And what Lyndon Johnson did in the 1960s, along with Adam Clayton Powell, who was an equally false flawed man was extraordinary. Richard Nixon, I grew up hating. I mean, it was, it was early, it was his race against felon [Helen] Gahagan Douglas, my parents were talking about what a terrible man Richard Nixon was. And so that long before there was the 1960s, I knew that Richard Nixon was somebody to watch out for. In the last few years, I have learned that it could be worth grin, I will have to say, again, notwithstanding Vietnam, notwithstanding, Watergate, that Richard Nixon was our last liberal president, the last president to believe in the social welfare system around I mean, it took me a long, long time to understand that and the only way sometimes you learn these things is to see what happens later. But the fact of the matter is that Bill Clinton is incredibly to the right of Richard Nixon. And this flies in the face of what I always believed in what I was raised to believe, but all you have to do is think that Richard Nixon favored a negative income tax. And that was shut down by liberals like George Wiley who complained that it was not big enough. But if Nixon had succeeded, we might never be having the welfare dispute we were having today. Because we would have had structured it on an entirely different basis. We have there was a long list of things which slipped my mind at the present but there-there was a long list of issues. I do not want to say them because I will get some of them wrong. Have issues that people just do not even connect with, with the Nixon administration, which essentially- 1:35:06 SM: how do you feel the ca- so called enemies lists affected the psyche of the boomer generation? Because he had those lists, anybody who was protesting around college campuses, they were taking pictures on ovals. Anybody who was involved? 1:35:24 LE: I do not know. I mean, I, I guess I have had the honor of standing a chance to be on to enemies list because I might have been on Nixon, I guess it was not, I have never asked for my FBI file, I, you know, I, I feel I either would be disappointed if it was too thin, or angry if it was too thick. So, I would rather sort of leave that as a as an unknown. But I also am reasonably confident that I may be on Bill Clinton's enemies list. And I would say, this is no defense of Nixon. But but-but, you know, it is very hard to get people to look at these things realistically, you know, to step outside of your own ideology and look at the facts, the facts of the matter, that Chuck Colson went to jail, in part for looking at I think it was three FBI files, on people. Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton, they have had access to 900, at the least, at the least. And there is right now, you know, at least a reasonable journalistic supposition that I have seen that, that this whole White House Office database, when far beyond that, that it may have been directly tied into the FBI. Not that that, you know, you could just put your push a button and pull up somebody's FBI file, but you could automatically make a request to the FBI and a low level figure would make a decision and could send the file over. And it seems to be working. So now we have moved from-from-from paranoia, distrust and Machiavellian politics, to automated distrust paranoia, and Machiavellian politics. Now, that does not make Nixon a saint, it makes him, but it is something that you have to deal with. You have to deal with the fact that Bill Clinton is more conservative and Richard Nixon on domestic issues. There is just absolutely no doubt about it. And that on civil liberties is probably worse. I mean, it is a race, but he is probably worse. Bill-Bill Clinton has not he has yet to find a civil liberties worth standing up for. And he has played a key role in in the evisceration of the Fourth Amendment. He has a content he has an underlying he basically has a soul of a southern share when it comes to civil liberties issues. 1:37:55 SM: How about Senator Eugene McCarthy and Senator George McGovern? 1:38:00 LE: Okay, well, I was a McCarthy. supporter, I was a, I ran on a, we had an interesting thing. We had a combined Bobby Kennedy, Gene McCarthy, slate for democratic Central Committee and for convention delegates here, because the problem was, we decided that if we did not get together, Humphries would beat his boat. So I think this was a rare case of a fusion slate in American politics. And I was on as McCarthy, candidate for the Democratic Central Committee. And we won, and we had a wonderful Central Committee, and it was a wonderful, very, very progressive group, including the National committeeman was, there was the, there was the perspective, Phillip Pinkett support Hannity. But Channing Phillips, who was the first black person ever been nominated for president was the runner of our slate, the National Committee. So I was very pro McCarthy. Years later, I would come to know him and become quite good friends with years later. And I think that we just happen to share a lot of, of interest and love of politics, of humor, of irony of the importance of viral and in the world. And it has been a very pleasant experience. Governor McGovern, I certainly supported I was never one of his really great supporters. I was actually sort of pissed off at him very early because he had sent very strong signals that he was ready to endorse DC statehood. So, but what apart Ryan, John Hechinger to local members of the McGovern committee, were opposed to statehood and they got government back off. And it is funny, you know, when you are in politics, and you are around somebody and you see something like that happen, it really soured you because you, you draw a conclusion if you see it once, it is going to happen again. And so I never after that could be quite. I mean, there certainly was no data. There is support McGovern over Nixon. But in terms of my personal respect for the man, I just never could get it up to 55 again. 1:40:41 SM: How about some of the women leaders of the time Betty-Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, women that stood out in- 1:40:51 LE: Shirley Chisholm I liked in a big way. Better Friedan, I did not. She was not that strong on my scope. The glorious time was the other person. Bella Abzug. Yeah, she was she I enjoyed her, I thought she was saying that. But I also got later on got to know a few people who worked for her and she apparently was an absolute tyrant to work for. It was interesting, because of course, one of the things that-that is the real talent for those of us who are in our- grew up in the (19)50s is that we spend our entire lives adapting to one thing or another. Maybe one reason why we have never produced the president, although I think that in a way that we might produce a very good president, because we are a generation that has-has serially seen what this country is made up geographically. In other words, we grew up in Republican America. And we were sort of serially introduced to other parts of America and make our peace in our way. And then. And so my own generational bias, is that, that we would be actually quite good leaders. If-if-if it were not for the hubris of those who came before us and after us was not so strong, that we got squeezed because, see, the thing is that we cannot have any hubris because we have been beaten about the head too much. So, we, you know, we had the insert traditional arrogance of our parents, and then the-the, you know, the-the self-assurance of the, of the boomers on either side of this and we get squeezed out. And the woman's movement was part of that. I- my perspective on that was, again, a little bit strange, because I had grown up with four sisters. And one of whom went to Red Cliff. My father was not in any way supportive of them going even going to college. And I think he was quite negative and that so that I was aware of those-those tensions quite early. And having one of the things about the Quakers I think I can say this without exaggeration, certainly a German have French school is that I never heard, while I was there any feeling on the part of the of my women classmates that they were treated in a second class fashion, I think that has, that has been pretty generally true of the Quakers it just, it just was not part of their-their-their-their view. And I mean, in writing my own memoirs, you know, in writing about trying to remember 11th grade English class, I refer to an English teacher, who was seen far more interested in the, in the girls in the class, who were more sophisticated, you know, as women of that age often are, and are then someone like myself, you know, I always I found myself sort of, you know, not quite as clever as they were. And so that and then when I got to Harvard, I had a couple interesting experiences in this regard. The thing is you get to a place like Harvard, you suddenly you run into people going to boy’s prep schools. And it is, a, it is a tremendously different paradigm. Enormous and you can see why you have trouble when these folks get to be CEOs. It is But I was not aggressive about it was not a big deal for me, it just seemed like it serves stupid or natural. So I occasionally got myself involved in things like I was on the Harvard sailing team. And one time I did not have a crew, I could not find a crew. So, I called up a friend of mine at Radcliffe. And I said, you know, your name is Alice. And you know, nobody's going to notice that it is not a be either male or female have it proven for me. Well, when we reached in this race, Medford Lake, I will never forget it. The problem was that I won the race gave me undue attention, and it was discovered that I had a, a woman crew, and I was literally hauled to a disciplinary meeting of the of the New England Intercollegiate Sailing Association. Was I look back on that, you know, I mean, look at that and go that was dumb. I am sure. You know, I mean, my reaction was not, it was not anger, it was not a cause. It just sort of seemed to me sort of stupid and sort of funny, you know, I mean, it was. And then later on, I also was involved in trying to get women at the radio stage, and unsuccessfully, but they did come a few years later, so. But I am not trying to suggest that I was any great. You know, it just was I had a different perspective on it. And then that worked against me, I think of a way a bit in a woman's movement, because when the women's movement did not come along, because it was assumed that my attitude was different sometimes. And because I was not prepared to sort of make all the advances, you know, that I might I, so that, that sometimes I did not know how to handle the issue very well, because it was not something that that had ever been a particular issue. And my growing up, and, and I believe I believe I handled it the way that I think is the smartest way to do which is you give people power. People do not have power, and they deserve it, and you give them and so that there are a number of from my, when I had a staff, they were putting out the DC Gazette. There were a number of women who wrote for that, who did very well in what is now president of the of the pen Faulkner Foundation. And I had a whole bunch of critics and eventually kicked them all out, because they were taking up too much space. And I did not know how to edit critics. But they- that was in (19)76. And we and it became a-a art paper called The Washington review. But there, which still exist today. But the point is that there were all those shifts going on there were all these little things little instance, you know, that you remember, like, when-when I first started putting out the paper, Kathy, my wife, Kathy, who was-was listed on the masthead as the editors wife, which I thought sort of adequately described her-her real role, you know, sort of ambiguous and-and as I said, in that piece I gave you know, so I had a Turneresque quality she is, you know, sort of threatening quality. And she actually had a column called editor's wife. Well, we are long when-when all these you know, new women movement. 1:48:19 SM: I cannot you imagine. Why aren't you the husband? 1:48:23 LE: Yeah, right. So I found my ass in the sling over that. And the curse the irony of it was that then they got Kathy me talking about the whole deal, we decided that maybe it was better to stay married than to have her working. So-so it was it was an interesting-interesting time that you-you had the sort of waves of change washing up you. 1:48:51 SM: Few final names here and then we have a final question. That is a few sentences for like Hubert Humphrey. 1:48:58 LE: Hubert Humphrey was my childhood hero. Hubert Humphrey came to my parents’ house in Philadelphia and gave a speech. My father was one of the organizers of ADA and Hubert Humphrey gave a speech and the thing I remember about the evening was a Joe Rao was there. I wish I met Joe Rao, Joe rouse doted on one of my mother's antique chairs and gave us money raising pitch, and I was very much you know, Huberdeau Humphrey was God. But I, Joe rousing even on a higher plane, because, you know, the idea of someone just standing up on one of my mother's chairs in their living room. And I looked at my mother, and she seemed absolutely super hungry, would say pleases, punch, right. And I sit down, there was a guy with real power. I told that story to Joe Ross shortly before he died and he laughed. He said, he no, he said, I remember that evening. Well, he said, went in there and I saw all these older people, it was an older crowd and said, I wonder what Hubert is going to say. And Hubert started right out talking about Woodrow Wilson. And but the thing I remember about that evening was then driving from my house to the airport with my father and Hubert Humphrey and he and Hubert Humphrey engaging in a 45-minute monologue in hallway. Wow. 1:50:26 SM: The musicians of the year, the (19)60s, boomers have always identified with the music. The Bob-Bob Dylan's and, and I just your overall thoughts. Even though you are not a boomer of the music of that era of the Bob Dylan's Joan Baez, Jimi Hendrix, the list goes on and on Janis Joplin. 1:50:49 LE: Well, again, I have to, you know, from where I have come from, and I was a, I was a jazz musician. I had my own DJ show jam with Sam on the college radio station. I am still today a piano player. I was drums then. But now I do the piano and vocals. But my world was the world of Miles Davis. And you know, Count Basie and the closest I got ever got to rock was I used to play I once played Earl Bostic on my show, who was a rhythm and blues saxophone player. And I was bawled out by the jazz director at the radio station because he was not jazz. Actually, just so basically, Dylan I never understood I to this day, I do not understand why anybody gets excited about Bob Dylan. Joan Baez has a beautiful voice. And it was not, it was, it was but for the most part, it was not part of my experience in a big way. I mean, it was not that I was negative towards it just was part of the background noise of the period. And but for my own tastes, I was into jazz and, and, and symbolically just as just as important for people who were boomers. You know, they have all these-these feelings, they relate to the music. To me, I relate to the alienation of modern jazz and to the sort of democratic spirit of mainstream jazz. Um, that is, it is just part of me in a way that rock is part of people who are into that. 1:52:38 SM: Do here is [audio cuts] (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Lee Edwards Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edwards, Lee, 1932- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; College teachers; Historians; Edwards, Lee, 1932--Interviews Description An account of the resource Lee Edwards is an author, educator and a leading historian of American Conservatism. He is a professor at the Catholic University and Chairman of a Victims of Communism Memorial in Washington foundation. He has appeared on many television broadcast and his books have been published in The Wall Street Journal, The Boston Globe and many more. Dr. Edwards has a bachelor's degree in English from Duke University and a doctorate in Political Science from Catholic University. He also holds a doctor of humane letters degree from Grove City College and attended the Sorbonne in Paris for graduate work. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.46a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.46b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 112:41