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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Steven M. Silver
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Steven M. Silver is a psychologist, author and combat veteran of the Vietnam War. He is currently the Director of the inpatient Posttraumatic Stress Disorder Program of the VA Medical Center in Coatesville, P.A.. Dr. Silver has been working with trauma survivors since 1972. He received his Bachelor's degree in History and Government, a Master's degree in Counseling form Miami University in Ohio, and he has a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Temple University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6915,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,3618091],"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Steven M. Silver is a psychologist, author and combat veteran of the Vietnam War. He is the former Director of the inpatient Posttraumatic Stress Disorder Program of the VA Medical Center in Coatesville, P.A. Dr. Silver has been working with trauma survivors since 1972. He received his Bachelor's degree in History and Government, a Master's degree in Counseling from Miami University in Ohio, and he has a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Temple University.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Anti-war protests; Vietnam War; Civil Rights Movement; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Jane Fonda & Tom Hayden; Nineteen seventies music; Rock and roll."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Anti-war protests; Vietnam War; Civil Rights Movement; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Jane Fonda & Tom Hayden; Nineteen seventies music; Rock and roll.</span>
Duration
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124:11
Subject LCSH
Psychologists; Authors, American; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Silver, Steven M.--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Interview with Dr. Steven Silver
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Silver, Steven M. ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Psychologists; Authors, American; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Silver, Steven M.--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Steven M. Silver is a psychologist, author and combat veteran of the Vietnam War. He is currently the Director of the inpatient Posttraumatic Stress Disorder Program of the VA Medical Center in Coatesville, P.A. Dr. Silver has been working with trauma survivors since 1972. He received his Bachelor's degree in History and Government, a Master's degree in Counseling from Miami University in Ohio, and he has a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Temple University.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
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ND
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.207a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.207b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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124:11
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Denis Hayes
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
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Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Denis Hayes is an environmental advocate, proponent of solar power, attorney, educator, and founder of the Earth Day Network, which works with over 180 nations in order to build environmental democracy. He was head of the Solar Energy Research Institute and president of the Bullitt Foundation in Washington. Hayes also received many awards including the national Jefferson Awards Medal for Outstanding Public Service. Hayes received his Bachelor's degree in History from Stanford University and a Juris Doctor degree at Stanford Law School."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Denis Hayes is an environmental advocate, a proponent of solar power, attorney, educator, and founder of the Earth Day Network, which works with over 180 nations in order to build environmental democracy. He was head of the Solar Energy Research Institute and president of the Bullitt Foundation in Washington. Hayes also received many awards including the national Jefferson Awards Medal for Outstanding Public Service. Hayes received his Bachelor's degree in History from Stanford University and a Juris Doctor degree at Stanford Law School.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Civil Rights Movement; Eisenhower; Vietnam War; Drug experimentation; Baby boom generation; Civil disobedience; Nonviolent protests; Support for the Environmental Movement; Chemical/biological warfare; Vietnam War; Earth Day."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Civil Rights Movement; Eisenhower; Vietnam War; Drug experimentation; Baby boom generation; Civil disobedience; Nonviolent protests; Support for the Environmental Movement; Chemical/biological warfare; Vietnam War; Earth Day.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
88:57
Subject LCSH
Environmentalism; Lawyers; Earth Day Network; Solar Energy Research Institute; Bullitt Foundation; Hayes, Denis--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Denis Hayes
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: Not Dated
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:00):
As I mentioned in my note that I have been working on this for a long time. I started it way back. In fact, Senator Nelson was one of my first interviews and I interviewed him when I was working at the university and we did this on the road leadership program and he had come to our campus twice to talk about Earth Day and one night we went over to the Holiday Inn and we were having a couple drinks and everything and I told him that I had been having difficulty getting a hold of William Fulbright, that I wanted to take our students down to DC to meet him. And he had just had a stroke, but he was getting recuperated and he was a close friend of the Senators. And he said, "Geez, I will get them for you." I said, "Really? Because I have been trying to secure him." And what happened is as a result of that, we ended up seeing nine senators. And I got pretty close to the Senator. He would always come into the Wilderness Society office. They would always meet in the back room there. I took maybe close to 200 different students there. In fact, that memory has stayed with so many of the students. I have a student now just became director of admissions at Southern Illinois University and Dr. Brandon Logan. And he was there with three of them, and when Senator McCarthy passed away and when Senator Musky passed away wherever he was, he sent me a note saying it was one of the greatest memories of my life. So I thank the Senator for that. Are you ready for the first question? And again, thank you again. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what's the first thing that comes to your mind?
DH (00:01:51):
Time of upheaval in basic American institutions.
SM (00:01:57):
Could you go a little more detail?
DH (00:01:59):
Sure. Stuff was going on in every dimension of American life in terms of political realignment. That is when Nixon launched the southern strategy initially attempted from (19)64 by Barry Goldwater, brought to fruition in (19)68, especially (19)72 by Nixon, to basically take what had been the solid Democratic South, put it into the Republican Party. Then in the course of doing that, putting the so-called Rockefeller Republicans, the Lindseys and Scrantons and Romneys into play. And you can make at least normally the argument that, at least in terms of the Senate, we were just discussing it now that group's pretty much down to one or two, maybe the two women senators from Maine. Fundamental realignment from Republican Party that in the Eisenhower years was actually better on civil rights and had the first Black senator at Brook out of Maine into one that took over the racist elements of the South and turned many of the worst from by-standpoint, progressive political figures from the South and to Republicans. It was a time when the generation that had been raised with much of the American value system close to their hearts began and cherished what was the end of the colonial empire and the independence of the great many of the states that had been subjected to European expansion. Found itself involved in a war in Southeast Asia, which many of us came to believe we were on the wrong side of. It was a war of independence and liberation by people that had been fighting off China for a long time, got off French for a long time and now we were fighting off the America. And so it led to this gigantic disillusionment carried over from the (19)50s was the overall nuclear weapons. It was amplified in the (19)60s with concerns about new weapon systems for space-based and or multiple independently targeted entry that significantly increased the destructive potential of any one missile, letting it target perhaps as many as 16 different places from one missile. And the response to that, the form of an anti-ballistic missile system called MX. Stuff was just escalating in ways that struck us as insane, was a sense of identity. Politics came into play for the first time where people began to view themselves in terms of social groups, a Christian coalition, racial identities, very strong and grew out of the civil rights movement. Began to become part of forming political bases, Black voting. And the same thing with Mexican American saying to a much lesser extent, a little with parts of the Asian communities. And then I am guessing for purposes of this conversation, this brand-new social course, first onto the scene on the form of concern for the quality of life, for sustainability, public health, protection of basic natural resources, a concern for endangered species, intactness of ecosystems, all of which had existed as issues for people who were worried the [inaudible] about pesticide, heard about air pollution. We formed the Wilderness Society of the National Wildlife Federation and the National Ottoman Society, Sierra Club decades earlier to work on nature, humans that now found themselves bound together in a movement that was concerned with human health, with energy policy, pollution, livable cities, lead paint, and lead in automobile costs. Somehow finding itself aligned with people who are worried about duck flyways but all coming to understand it or operating from a similar set of values. And they help far more powerful and it is frankly a set of groups that they had before. So the speculation of all those interests into an environmental movement.
SM (00:07:12):
How do you respond to those individuals who, over the past, well maybe 15, 20 years, continue to take shots at the boomer generation or the (19)60s and (19)70s as the reason why we have all these problems in America today? They are making reference of course to the breakup of the American family, the sexual revolution, the morays, the drug culture. Many of them will even go into the concept of the victim culture. Everybody is a victim and all these issues that they look upon as negative, they shoot right back to the (19)60s and (19)70s when boomers are young. George Willie is one of those individuals who at times will write articles and he will take his shots every so often at that generation. But I have heard other politicians do the same. What's your thoughts on that?
DH (00:08:10):
Well, George Will is of course a member of that generation and hence he knows because he was growing up at that time. That it was enormously diverse as all generations are. Certainly, the press has always tended to focus his detention upon things that were unusual, colorful. And so if you get a small sub moving out to the woods to try to live sustainably, it may involve a couple of thousand people in the nation, but it suddenly gets all of these write-ups and it makes it seem like the whole generation is doing it. Clearly, there was a fair amount of drug experimentation that went on, but there had been drug experimentation that was going on before it became more visible. What is the word I am looking for here? It became more common place in terms of people's expectations in the wake of Woodstock. But there was serious marijuana use and heroin use facing back to the earliest of the century. Be back. With regard to the breakup of family, I think something has gone on there and some of it was probably good. It was an end to a certain kind of hypocrisy and some of it was probably bad. There seems many instances now to be, in my view, to give up on relationships without putting as much effort into it. I had a friend just the other day, when he was growing up, he asked his grandfather, he'd been married to his grandmother 47 years, a few months after that he was deaf. Excuse me, sorry, one second. And he asked his grandfather, what was the secret? His grandfather said, "Well, it was a different era." And there is something to that. Some stuff did change and much of it was good. It brought us the environmental revolution. I mean, it brought us some formidable ways, the creativity that led to information.
SM (00:10:54):
When we talk about the boomer generation, we are talking depending on statistics you read, between 70 and 74, 75 million people. And of course, we are talking about different ethnic groups and gender and everything. But when you look at this generation, what would you consider to be some of their strengths and some of their weaknesses in your opinion?
DH (00:11:19):
That was the point of before I distracted myself, I was talking about George Woo as one of those students. I mean, on any given campus you always had Greeks and factions and they tended to bound themselves a little bit around disciplines, the school of engineering and the business club or conservative with exceptions there too. The credit school must be more progressive along with arts and science. And then you have all of these overlays of different genders and racial groups. When you talk about any of those issues that you brought up before, boy that just delays in different ways and what Will is now pointing at it got the most attention when they were happening. Go back and reformulate that question?
SM (00:12:14):
Basically, in your opinion, what are some listing of some characteristics that you find very positive about the boomer generation as a whole and at the same time after the positives, some of the negative characteristics as you see it?
DH (00:12:32):
Well, of course a fair number of characteristics are in the same characteristic [inaudible] Janus faced there. It seems to me not having been around in my parents' generation, but it seems to me much less reference to authority. It perhaps came in part out of learning that we had been lied to about the Tom King, that we lied about various aspects of American intervention in the politics of other countries. Lied to about any number of things. So I am not sure the politicians were ever held on an enormous, but people, the best of them give up many opportunities including solid life, their families and privacy and what have you, to try to survey a broader publication mostly held in this repute. So on the good side, somebody because he or she managed to achieve authority was not taken at face value anymore. But on the bad side of that temporary... It tends to be presumption, that skepticism.
SM (00:14:02):
You speak up just a little bit too please?
DH (00:14:04):
Oh, okay.
SM (00:14:04):
Yep, sure. Yep.
DH (00:14:08):
Among the good characteristics, I think, I will probably get in some trouble for saying this, but it may have been the most educated generation in American history. Really took a lot of science, a lot of technology, studied extremely hard, and I think came into it with a sounder background than the World War II generation and a better background than people who are passing to today's school for all kinds of reasons. I do not know why the American educational enterprise has deteriorated, as the last few decades. I think it is a true tragedy and out of that came... And again, it is two faces often in different people. On the one hand, ordinary technologies [inaudible] to the New York Bangalore, nanosecond, and at the same time the degree of skepticism of that technological salvation, the concept that our parents would have clinged to now and those parents have survived, cling to now that the answer to climate change will be the magic bullet. That somebody will invent something to take care of them. And that is not much believed by the boomers who think answer there is going to be producing emissions, turning to it. Maybe there are technologies, energy resources, investments in conservation, but there's not the nuclear fusion to something that is going to come in over the horizon and buy cheap power that lets us continue precisely [inaudible]... I think there is a degree of identity with myriad organizations that are outside the traditional ways that Americans organize themselves. It is to say we still obviously have Republicans and Democrats, so a huge number of independence. The former community based social organization, alliances, Kiwanis, are of really strongly declining importance among baby boomers. And we tend to be... Excuse me.
SM (00:16:54):
Bless you.
DH (00:16:58):
Excuse me. That is okay. We tend to be involved in organizations that do not necessarily involve our neighbors. So if you look at the memberships of the Natural Resources Defense Council, there are no chapters in the United States. There is an identity with an organization that has a few offices in various regions that have paid staff in it, but it asks relatively little of their dollars, their affiliation, and occasionally to write a letter to Congress. There are certainly no weekly meetings or Mondays or those sorts of... Have largely generationally disappeared at length, bowling alone. I think there is really something to that in terms of the new forms of affiliation and that is becoming even more true as people's more and more online. And now often somebody will have a stronger relationship with a computer friend who shares a set of arcane interests, who has located 3000 miles away and who he or she has never met and I may not know the name of the person who lives next door to them. And that is unique in human experience. But on the other side of that, it may help the very first time to begin to build a sense of world community to the one politically accept prejudice that endures is a person born one inch on this side of a line, arbitrarily drawn on a map, inherently worth far more than a person who was born one inch on the other side of that. And with problems like climate change, protecting the world's oceans, protecting the world's endangered species, dealing with population growth and immigration, they all have to be dealt, particularly as immigration comes forced immigration as a consequence, climate change. They all have to be dealt at global basis and we have to somehow begin to develop this global consciousness. I do not think there would have been a way to do that prior to worldwide web. Still not confident we will do it, but there is at least an attempt, some of that indicating work.
SM (00:19:29):
Yeah. When you look at the (19)60s, what do you believe was the watershed moment when the (19)60s began and when was the watershed moment when it ended?
DH (00:19:41):
I suppose the beginning was the Kennedy assassination and its aftermath. You had a subsequent president of Lyndon Johnson who was a master politician and a despicable human being, but a guy who as a political figure was truly extraordinary, as the Voting Rights Act, as the Civil Rights Act, took that thing to Kennedy, gets all of the praise for putting a man on the moon and actually made it happen. Built Houston Flight Control in Huntsville and the whole NASA enterprise. Created a series of programs as part of the great society that were potentially really revolutionary and hitter over some awfully conservative voices in Congress and was so saddled with the war in Vietnam. The primary way that he has thought of today is still, "Hey, LBJ, how many could kill today?" That any case, the alienation that came out of the aftermath, the assassination sense of hope and invigoration and generational shift that so many people challenged by it wanted to go into the space race and wanted to go into the peace for and wanted to get out and do things, suddenly turned into this thing that was set pretty bleak, during escapism into Woodstock, huge number of civil rights rallies, anti-war rallies, iron metals, women's rallies. At all. I think, some large measure after the reelection of Nixon in 1972 that was sent, the hopes of that generation had [inaudible].
SM (00:22:09):
Do you think this generation was the most unique generation in American history, the boomers? Because it is a quality that some boomers stuff they possessed when they were young, that they were going to change the world, that they were going to make the world better for the human race. They were going to end, obviously racism and all the isms, bring peace to the world. Your thoughts on this feeling that many of them had that they were unique and secondly, part of this question as they have aged, because the early part of the boomers now are 62. They can now get social security and early retirement if they want to. Have you been disappointed? I know you obviously are an activist who has stayed the course and you know many in the environmental movement who have, but when you look at that generation, how many stayed the course? So it is a two-part question. And please speak up.
DH (00:23:13):
Sorry.
SM (00:23:14):
Okay.
DH (00:23:15):
Just a second. Why do not I just do this, this way. Again, enormous, complex, multifaceted, very diverse. But among those who were at the cutting edge of change, there was certainly a sense of uniqueness and even probably a bit of metaphor rebellion there. We thought we were inheriting the world, but in the wake of World War II, enormous opportunities have been [inaudible] coming into a world in which worlds still commonplace racism, extremely progress in which feature of additional progress, public health, plummeted environment deteriorate. I think there was essentially no doubt in the minds of my friends and I at least, but we would be passing on to our children a world that was far better than the one that became inherited. At least we were committed to doing that. There were Black moments, but God, there is no chance at all. And then you get one of these sweeping victories, you drive a sitting president out of office, [inaudible] Hampshire, you pass a clean air act over the brightened opposition of automobile in petroleum and coal and steel industry. You win it essentially 99 to 1, that there was a sense that, yeah, we really can make a difference here. And I think that there's still time worth the scales to tip a bit further in terms of those changes. Clearly, we now have made fundamental changes in all kinds of laws that affect how women are treated, how minorities are treated, patients are treated, how the environment is concerned. The wave of laws that were passed between 1970 and 1974 have caused multiple trillions of dollars to be spent differently than they would have been spent, but more concerned with clean air and clean water and toxic cases and the conservation of species. And by any cost benefit analysis, it is a hugely beneficial shift of priority. It got that money spent. So I do not want to underplay the degree to which there has been some success, but where I think the real shift may yet come is the brochure, some now sign up for social security. A great many are now CEOs of companies. They're the heads of everything from labor organizations, major hospitals, elected officials to what have you and many will deep at it until their (19)70s, partly as a result of having a whole lot of trades because the retirement program get vaporized. But in part also, because they really are doing stuff that they enjoy and are reasonably good at that. And that is where I have actually had, this is anecdotal, but some disappointment. People that I thought very highly of, their younger days have come to be the CEOs of very major companies and have made choices driven by the demands of Wall Street, driven by their board of directors, driven by all sorts of things. But nonetheless, were involved with the people who were most prominently identified with some really terrible choices. So to the extent that we thought it was a generational thing that encompassed everybody, I do not know that anybody ever thought that, but if they did, it was naive, diverse. But certainly there are people who have done magnificent things and the world is a better place for that. I guess what I would say in just a nutshell that where we succeeded and failed, where we succeeded most on things that directly affected the individual families and individual communities and their health somewhat less at the state level and somewhat less still at the national level. But still even at the national level, fundamental changes in direction and regulation and laws where we were completely unsuccessful was in international relations where the only significant global victories that I think of during that era is some strengthening of international campaigns on human rights. So it is still astonishingly weak and maybe the Montreal protocol on ozone depletion. But the other big global issues, war and peace issues, the rich and war issues, climate change issues, all of those are in worse shape today than they were up 21.
SM (00:29:11):
Obviously, Earth Day was so important. When you look at these, again 70 plus million boomers, what do you think was the one issue that defined their generation? Was it Vietnam?
DH (00:29:30):
No, I do not think I can answer that. It certainly was defining for a large number of people who either went for and came back changed or went to Canada, did not think they had not have done to avoid going. And I hope that in the most part that was because they did not want to kill for an unjust war, rather they could not die. Whatever it was, they were altered by it. But there were other people who were completely consumed by... I mean, for women, I do not think that the war was as defined as it was for the people. The men who would have been directly engaged and often we were caught up and defined by feminism. But are in some cases defined by changing standards for motherhood in various racial groups, fighting for social justice and literally for their lives in various parts of it. And for some of us, it was clearly a shift that came from a recognition of a different role for mankind within the environmental movement. There was this very powerful strength that says that you have in the era of fossil fuels from the steam engine, largely defined success by subduing nature. And that has not worked out so well and accomplished prosperity. But you can lead lives of comfort, dignity, and contribution by adapting ourselves intelligently to the principles of college cities and ministries that are compatible with and ecosystems you will continue function, do not undermine nature services, of course, our needs.
SM (00:31:41):
One of the characteristics of the generation is obviously it was a movement generation because there were so many movements. The Civil Rights Movement was already going strong as boomers are reaching the age of 18, and many went to the freedom summer when they were very young. But when you look at the other movements, including the environmental movement, the Chicano, the gay and lesbian, the women's movement, the Native American movement, and the anti-war movement. Your thoughts on their links to the Earth Day and all the other environmental movements, because there seem to be a sense... And I like your thoughts on this, you had just made some comments about the international community today and how important the sense of community should be that we all need to work together as one. There was a sense of community amongst many of the boomers. That is why they worked well together. And at many protests you would see many of the movements together. When you look at the environmental movement and you see all these other movements, was there a close working relationship between the movement you were involved in and all these others?
DH (00:32:56):
At the working level where the folks really are representing large numbers of people who share their guilt and respect them and think of them as leaders? There was a high degree of pragmatic interaction. To take just the Earth Day example, as you go across the country, you will find in various rallies, all of the major leading anti-war figures were giving talk, sometimes focused exclusively upon the raping and [inaudible] of the Vietnamese environment, [inaudible] and the night palm, what have you. But one way or the other, tying their issue into it. And then similarly with civil rights leaders who would talk about the environmental, the ghettos about blood paint and rats, toxic materials as environmental issues about the dominant one at that point, freeways cutting through inner city areas, decimating what had been intact neighborhoods. And so there was that level at the extremes of each movement. I mean, they are in the extremes of the environmental movement, and I hate to characterize groups by this, but there are extremes within it that have a racist element to it, have a nationalistic, almost dramatic element to it. In the extremes of the civil rights movement, there were certainly those that were mixing up the search for Black power with the condemnation of things that were not Black and beautiful. And that basically took an organization like the SNC, the Students nonviolent Court, which had been students in mixed race and a whole lot of people, and basically kicked the white folks out. This was all about building from within Black nationalism and in the anti-war movement, I do not know that it is particularly a radical worldview, but there were folks who I think almost had psychological problems. They thought that using a brick through the window of a random florist shop somehow contribute to the movement. Basically they alienated their fellow anti-war and everybody else's, some of the prisons. But at the level that I think you are asking it, there was a broad sense that there was a new agenda that was coming. It was a generational agenda. It was in some large measure, progressive. It had a desire to have a higher degree of equality among all people and opposed to things that treated some as second class. And I think all of that was extremely widely shared. I should say that that led to condemnations from the people because you have an environmental rally, but signs are on simple rights. Signs are about war and all of the stuff. And so they would say, well... And they say the same thing about all of the others. You would go to an anti-war movement and there would be feminist's signs there and they would contend that this is all just [inaudible]. People do not really care about the environment, care about the war, care about whatever the issue is. It is all just a front to pull, a broad base liberal agenda. And it is not entirely false. I mean, most of us cared about all of those issues at a primary identification, which had been all the different events.
SM (00:36:42):
I am sure that, and I think hopefully activists today, whether they be environmental activists or any of other movements we have talked about, should realize that violence gets no one anywhere and it creates a bad image for the effort that you are trying to work on. I mentioned this because you have already brought up the Black power issue, the challenge with the Black power and the Black Panthers within the Civil Rights Movement, even in the Native American movement, the aim oftentimes got involved in violence. And then of course, in the last 10 years I have read about environmental activists who were violent. I cannot remember the name of the one group. I think it is out in the far west. They are willing to confront people and with violence if they have to, it is that Malcolm X by any means necessary attitude. Have you seen any of that within the environmental movement that by any means necessary, not only in 1970, but as you have progressed through the Earth Day celebrations in 2000 and just your thoughts on that?
DH (00:37:59):
Well, once again, it is part of this vast diversity and what gets attention and what does not. When you have the Southern Christian Leadership Conference in the NAACP and Urban League and others trying to build a broad-based movement across the races to end the Jim Crow laws that had oppressed people basically from the Civil War, the immediate aftermath. They had enormous support, but the support was very broad, but people did not do very much. And certainly some did. The freedom writers went to the South, Freedom Summer was important opiate brief because of them, but almost immediately to Black power fall. But a theory of change is you build a critical mass, you reach out to as many as possible and you try to move them to a state where they become a powerful force. That was the whole theory behind Earth Day. We wanted to get everybody engaged and pull together something where for a window in time, which we thought was going to be much longer but did last for four or five years, we were effectively unstoppable. But an opposite view would say that in almost any instance, it is a very small number of people who care passionately about an issue that drive change. And most of the time, the vast majority of people cannot focus upon that many issues and maybe they will watch the evening news. But in the evening news, a three-paragraph story is a pretty long story and it is going to be dominated by whatever has pictures and colorfulness. And so although the Black Panthers were never one 10th of 1 percent of what the NAACP was in terms of membership and had essentially no white engagement at all, got an enormous amount of headlines because they were prepared to carry [inaudible] in the streets of Oakland or Chicago. And because they were confrontational and sometimes confrontational to enormously racist entities. And so they dominated the press for a period. Whereas the early stages of the movement up through Martin Luther King, even Joseph Lowery, it was led by mostly southern religious leaders who preached a Gandhi esque code of passive civil disobedience and nonviolence. It shifted over into something that was more akin to urban thugs, but they got the coverage. It became the prototype how you move. A similar thing would happen in pretty much everything, right up until... I mean, when people think about Seattle, most of them think about Boeing and Microsoft and Weyerhaeuser and Nordstrom and Starbucks, Costco and RealNetworks. I mean, for a little tiny city, we have produced a whole number of things that are fundamentally changed.
SM (00:41:22):
Yes.
DH (00:41:24):
But for some set of people, particularly those that are involved in globalization trade, there is a pretty dominant image of the battle for Seattle. When the World Trade Organization got here and were formed by the group of anarchists on the streets, that was a couple hundred people and most of them were not from Seattle, most of them were from Eugene, Oregon Group that was down there. But they triggered stuff that caused police to react in a way because of the people to become engaged. It is all of the tricks that were done throughout the (19)60s and it worked. And a couple hundred people there had had an impact that has endured in people's consciousness. There's now at least two movies out about Seattle. There have been thousands of peaceful protests about the way the World Trade Organization has excluded from its consideration a true concern for the environmental attributes of products, the amount of energy that is embedded in products, the degree to which children are employed, the degree to which unions are forced out and on and on. The amount of pollution that is generated in the course of making a product that is then exported. The pollution remains behind. I mean, they get a little bit of attention for a few moments, maybe they educate some people, but nobody remembers any of the violent confrontations that endure. And it is true about what happened under apartheid. It is true about most social insurrections that take place around the world. And as a consequence, there is this genuine tension between two alternative ways of bringing change. My hope was-
SM (00:43:19):
Mr. Hayes, let me turn my tape here. Hold on one second.
(00:43:26):
All right, go right ahead.
DH (00:43:31):
Well, there was this great pivotal point in human history but over a brief period of time. Historically, we had Gutenberg who ironically developed this stuff for the proselytization of the Bible and bringing it for God to the common man. But it led pretty directly into the distribution of information rather broadly and the age of reason and the enlightenment where scientific dispersion method logic were applied to all kinds of politics and economics. Well, it looked like we had made each gigantic leap in terms of human consciousness. We now find ourselves in an era where people, huge portions of American society just pay little attention to people who devoted their entire lives to studying issues and are extremely highly regarded by their peers. They dismissed [inaudible] using intellectuals in a term of disdain and an endorsement of political figures, the ultimate caricature of which is Sarah Palin, who seems to have no agenda other than really, really wanting to be famous and powerful. And somehow the (19)60s and the boomer generation I think played into some of that. I do not have a very clear idea of what I mean by all of that, but I think in that period where the legitimacy of authority was increased in question because the authority had been accused. We came, and I had part of this as well too, do not have much confidence in professors, some of whom had obtained tenure 40 years earlier and had fallen way behind their disciplines. But out of all of that, for some people came almost a disdain for knowledge sense that what you know and what you can calculate reasonably predict in air boundaries is not as important as a deep emotional commitment to a particular outcome. And that is reflects itself a bit from the issue that actually triggered this fast out point of words for me, is to say the emotional types tend to say. And I do not give a damn if 80 percent of the people, I will create a situation in which society has to respond to me. And often violence is a part of that. And it is not so much a Black and white thing as it is a gradation. When people went in and sat in at lunch counters and said, "You do not want to sit next to me, you go sit someplace else." But I have got a right to sit here under the public accommodation clause. They were often met with violence and they knew that they would. And in the early days, they took it and accepted in a Gandhish way on the latter dates, touch me, man, I am going to take your head off it. And among the people in the Southern best writing campaigns you have, many of them were men and women who had affection for one another. And some guy is there and may be prepared to let the police beat him. But when the police start to beat and turn the fire hoses on her, and then suddenly a whole different center of protective genes comes into play and passing civil disobedience does not look so much honorable as it looks cowardly. And suddenly you find yourself giving birth to somebody who's going to strike back at those that were striking them.
SM (00:47:59):
What you have mentioned is maybe this quality came about from the boomer generation.
DH (00:48:07):
Well, it came up, it was there on the side of the oppressors. Bo Connors was not a boomer, but he prompted a response.
SM (00:48:18):
If we had a-
DH (00:48:18):
I think directly to the Black Panthers.
SM (00:48:21):
How important were the college students on college campuses and ending the Vietnam War? I have had different responses to this. Some say they were very important, some say not important at all.
DH (00:48:33):
Oh, I hate to utter these words, but I am confident that they are correct that the war was ended because we had a draft and part of it was a draft that reached into college campuses a bit. But mostly as long as you were in college, you were exempt. So everybody knew that it was coming as soon as they got out, unless they got into medical school or something. So there was an overhanging threat and rather than higher, but we now politely call it professional army, but some in sense can call it a mercenary army. People who are looking for a way to get an education, to get some discipline often to escape an unfortunate family environment. They go there and they go and fight our wars for us. If you were a member of Congress, you would like to be able to kick your kids out of the armed forces. There was a degree of randomness as to who was going to be called and that caused everybody in the country to think hard about that war and about its real consequences in a way that, for example, the war in Iraq, war in Afghanistan have not. They were on the news, but they were one of all of these period issues that were out there. During Vietnam, it was the war that could very well take your son or your nephew, daughter. And so although the students were the principal focal point for the demonstrations when you had the Vietnam moratorium, the march on the Pentagon fueled by people who were then my age, but what really ended the war was all of our parents and the political force that they represented that read large across the society. And then you finally got to the point for me, I think the turning point, if you were to define it, which may say more about my upbringing than anything else, but it was the day that Paul Harvey came on the radio that ultimately was convinced that this was a war that America should not be in. And that is like rush limbo coming out against a war in Afghanistan.
SM (00:50:50):
Is it Paul Harvey or Walter Cronkite?
DH (00:50:53):
No, I am talking about Paul Harvey.
SM (00:50:54):
Oh wow, Paul Harvey. Okay.
DH (00:50:57):
Yeah. No, Walter Cronkite coming back clearly is the one that got all of the attention.
SM (00:51:03):
Well, that is interesting.
DH (00:51:05):
But Paul Harvey just cut the undersides up to people that the military listened to every single time.
SM (00:51:12):
Oh wow. Yeah. I will never forget listening to that with my mom sometimes. Paul Harvey and Dave, he had that unique quality about him.
DH (00:51:22):
My dad came home from work every single noon, every day of his life for the type that I grew up with and to listen to Paul Harvey.
SM (00:51:30):
Well, he had a unique voice and yeah, that was a great show too. Before I get into some environmental questions as I really want to concentrate on and your background, I have two quick final questions here on general things about the boomers, and I want to read one of them. We took a group of students to see Senator Edmund Muskie about a year and a half before he passed away. And he had been in the hospital. He obviously was not feeling well, but he did it because Senator Nelson asked him and he was great. We had about two hours with him, and we asked this question that the students came up with because they thought he was going to respond, talk about the (19)68 convention, and he did not. And this is the question we ask, do you feel boomer generation is still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, divisions between Black and white, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? What role has the Vietnam Memorial played in healing the division says Jan Scruggs says in his book To Heal a Nation? Most importantly, do you feel that the bloomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? And are we wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the statement, time heals all wounds a truth? So just your thoughts and I will tell you what Senator Nelson said because it was great.
DH (00:53:03):
Muskie?
SM (00:53:05):
Yeah. Well, Senator Nelson also responded to this question, but Senator Muskie said... We thought he was going to respond by saying, "Boy, we were close to a second civil war in 1968." He did not say anything about (19)68. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And then he went on for about 15 minutes to talk about the Ken Burns series and the Civil War that he had been looking at and how he lost over 400,000 men and almost an entire generation died because of that particular war and what a waste it was. And he said, "Just go to Gettysburg anytime and see the flags. And you will notice on the southern side, the flags are always there, but on the northern side you do not see any." So just your thoughts on whether we as a boomer generation have a problem with healing from all these divisions or is this not even an issue?
DH (00:53:59):
And of course, as you are in Mississippi, Alabama, there was not a civil war that was the war of Northern Aggression.
SM (00:54:07):
Right. Yes, you are right.
DH (00:54:11):
Well, in some great extent, and this runs some of our earlier questions together as well, we are trying to do with Earth Day that a couple of years after the convention. When the nation clearly had been ripped apart, and one consequence of that was Richard Nixon as president, was to bring those people with progressive views together. As long as you could buy into the agenda, there was a role for you. I mean, on our steering committee we had George Wiley of the National Welfare Rights Organization, and we had Dan Lufkin. It is worth a couple $100 million dollars when a couple $100 million meant something as the founder of Donaldson, Lufkin & Jenrette. And Stanley [inaudible] Wiley is this person who somebody should look at someday. I am not big on the national welfare rights organization, though he did so many things from that.
SM (00:55:19):
What is his name? His name is George Wiley.
DH (00:55:23):
He died in a boating accident in the early (19)70s, but he was an emerging civil rights leader. He was a powerfully built African American man with PhD in chemistry and a deep and abiding concern for poor people. He was one of the true intellectuals who could have emerged and played, I think a really powerful role. Unfortunately, he was moved off-stage early. But going back to the broader point, we were trying to bring people together and to the extent that an event could, I think we did just by aggressively going after any entity, any group that appeared to have potential interest in this saying, come and get engaged, going after women's magazines. And in fact, probably the most powerful constituent was married women with one or two children and single wager or households with college educations who just jumped on this movement with the passion. And we got to them through women's magazines, a huge number of which wrote articles about us and the environment. Many gave their telephone number and the street address to contact us back about that Vietnam era. Went after Boy Scouts, went after the National Science Teachers Association, went after a variety of companies that seemed to be doing something quasi green, huge amount of support from organized labor. The largest contributor by far was the United Auto Workers. Other unions with single largest block of support for us and consciously we were trying to build something that was inclusive and in which the middle class would feel comfortable because they had been so much excluded from so many of those other movements by the way that the movements had in the end clustered themselves. We thought that that was the largest block of Americans. It was the ones with the money and the education and the power and the votes, and we wanted to have something that drew them into this sort of concerns. And I think for a while that all worked, but the polarization that is out there today is really very much a right left polarization. And I do not think it has much to do with at least the early concerns, the (19)60s and (19)70s concerns of the boomer generation. It is just this visceral lack of ability of political leaders to build an encompassing vision around what they are trying to achieve. That consists of something other than condemning the other side, not a positive competition of, you said dumping as much crap as you can on the other's vision. Now there are thoughtful things that can be said about various kinds of market mechanisms called for by people on the right. And there are some really useful roles that are played by regulation and by public expenditures that are called broke by people on the left, but there is no ability to treat one another with respect. Political level, and as a consequence, we are just paralyzed. I was on a radio interview a couple days ago and somebody asked me, in all seriousness, if we are unable to get a relatively weak climate bill through the US Senate because of the threat of the filibuster and we just cannot muster 60 votes yet, how could we come up with a treaty that meet the demands of developing countries and the ambitious goals of our European and Japanese allies and get 60 votes for that? That was blown away when I had to remind him of basic civics, you need to get 67 votes to pass treaty. There was a time when we could enter into treaties, but the law of the seas has been out there for what, 35, 40 years now, get the votes to pass it. I do not know how you ever pass a climate treaty, and I do not know how you saved the world without getting us to buy into some sort of an international agreement, but part of that is that no one will pay that attention. You got the climate deniers, you got these crazy people that honestly believe that there's a conspiracy in them. Thousands of scientists and hundreds of research institutions around the world over [inaudible] people's eyes. It is hard to believe that they believe that, but they sure say enormous emphasis. And on our side, there is a tendency to say, well, we have got a complete agreement among all relevant scientists and people who publish peer reviewed articles about all the details of climate change. Because if you get into difficulties and the nuances from the other side will pick you apart. In fact, everybody agrees that the world's... Community agrees the world is warming up, but we will have horrible consequences for all kinds of things at different points. There are just some like tilting point, humans are contributing to it. But within all of that, there is a lot of stuff that is judgment. There is a lot of stuff where you have got conflicting figures depending on whether you are using tree rings or whether you are using ice course or using something else to try to measure what happened a hundred million years ago. I do not know it's just this level of tension that makes it impossible to find a common ground. And we have a country that designed it. Basically the age of reason was all about forcing people to find a common ground like creating these speeds for majorities and super majorities.
SM (01:01:14):
So in short, really the healing issue is not really the main thing here in terms of the divisions within the (19)60s, these divisions are part of the human condition more than just defining it within a generation?
DH (01:01:30):
Well, they are a consequence of shifts in the way that that public opinion is shaped. There was a time when people read learned essays and you found the Bill of Rights being debated and people eager to read the next set of learned comment that came out in the newspapers. But people would sit up in the hot sun for eight, 10 hours and listen to the Lincoln Douglas debates where we have a nation that was really designed by a group of intellect. And there's a tendency on the right to treat the founding fathers as people go out and have a beer with. But I do not think that is a very accurate view of Jefferson in Monroe and Madison. Paul, certainly not Washington.
SM (01:02:32):
Do you see a link here, because you had mentioned people do not trust each other and lack of respect that the issue of trust or lack of trust is another quality that might be within the boomer generation because of so many leaders that lied to them, whether it be Johnson with a Gulf of Tonkin, certainly Watergate with Richard Nixon, but a lot of other leaders and even back in Eisenhower in the U2 when he lied about that. But the lower generation did not seem to trust anybody that was in the position of responsibility or leadership, whether it be a senator, congressman, the university president, corporate leader, even ministers, priests, rabbis, anybody in leadership, they did not trust anybody and whether they pass it on to their kids and grandkids, is that a good thing to not trust? And then is that a quality of the boomer generation?
DH (01:03:24):
Well, I think it is a quality. In some limits, I think it is a good quality. I think the degree of skepticism emerged because skepticism was warranted. He did not trust people because they lied to us. But what is tragic has been the lies. But that said, and at that point then, because you do not trust anybody and do not trust evidence and will not pay attention to anything that anybody says, I tend to give some deference to a report of the National Academy of Sciences. And so if you have agreement among say, 15 to 20 different National Academies of Sciences from around the world, plus you throw in a bunch of professional societies and they all get to the same basic point, I tend to assign that a very high degree of credibility and a huge number of people do not give a damn, one way or the other.
SM (01:04:25):
That is bad.
DH (01:04:27):
And it is related to where I was starting to go, which is that there was a time when at least my view of the past was that leaders were prepared to pay and the public was prepared to pay attention to evidence and then to thoughtful skilled art. And today, there is much more attention paid to images, to commercials that are designed to influence you one way or the other, to the 32nd sound bite, to the emotional gushing of a radio host in an almost evidence free manner. And part of this has to do with advances in human knowledge and how they are corrupt purposes. I mean, the fascinating thing that was on the air the other night, again, it goes back to the old statement, "A dying child is a tragedy. A million deaths is a statistic." There is something about that. When they were doing fundraising for one of these Save the Children and they had a brother and a sister from some African country, and when they would show ad the sister in it, they would get a very good response of contributions. When they showed an ad with the brother in it, they would get a very good set of responses. When they showed the brother and sister together in the ad, the contributions went down like two thirds. And if they showed 40 kids who were all in this terrible thing or a refugee camp or something that made it a bigger issue, everything just fell off entirely because people tend to think there is something I can do to save this person. There is nothing I can do to save the world. You take those kinds of basic emotional responses and instead of fashioning arguments about what we do to save the world, you play to those basic emotional instincts and it all become a science now. It is tragic.
SM (01:06:29):
How did you become who you are? In other words, what was the magic moment in your life that turned your light bulb on in your head and said, "I am going to devote the rest of my life to this cause or that cause or I am changing the direction of my life." It's a two part question here. Who were your mentors and your role models that inspired you? Not only when you were young, but it could be Senator Nelson too? Boy, he is inspired me just from working with him in a university. And what was that magic moment when you became an activist?
DH (01:07:10):
Well, for me it actually was pretty much a precise defining moment. I grew up in a very small town of lumbering and really did not think that there were things that I could do that would be of much impact. And as I read about form work, tragic things including the threat of nuclear weapons, fermentation with chemical and biological warfare down at the south, even the beginnings of the war in Vietnam, I basically went into a world-class belt and really could not see a path forward for myself. And I took off and went to tracking around the world for three years trying to see what was going on in various of society. By then [inaudible] the of the new plant of the fires of Algeria, I would read [inaudible] and wanted to find out what truly going on in. So I took the train across Russia. I had checked all over Africa, all over the Middle East, all over the southwest Asia. Spent a lot of time in Japan. When I was a junior in high school, long before all of this, I was invited by the National Science Foundation to go to an ecology seminar and did it. Anybody who was 15 years old, mostly chased girls, had a problem, the sun. But we also were studying the ways that dragon flies operated inside a pond community. And our academic portion was based on Eugene Odom's text, principles of Ecology. And I studied that for my final exams and did okay. And a lot of the material was really pretty [inaudible] to me. And then I went back and was a senior in the [inaudible]. Well, I was out hitchhiking around the world in Libya. I had an experience one night alongside the road where the road goes from Luderitz, right, intersects the road, goes down to Cape Town. When I went up over a hill at the close of the day, rolled up my seating bag and somehow stuff just came together for me. It was a little bit like conditions in which Old Testament profits had visions. I mean I had been out very alone for a long time by then. I have been basically by myself for a couple of years. It'd been a really hot day. It was a desert cold night. I did not have any decent food, had not any for a time. Somehow what popped into my mind was that ecology seminar and some of the basic principles that I recalled, and at the heart of it all being that life on Earth was driven by energy transactions. And that much of what Darwinian evolution is about is how to make everything just as efficient as possible for individual species and for the way that ecosystems functioned. And it was all dependent upon flows of energy from the sun captured through photosynthesis, released through oxidative possible relations, stored in various ways. And making those systems function as efficiently as possible, ultimately built what we have as most of the modern world except for human beings. Because we had found ways to tap into fossil resources that were unlimited supply. And we had emerged into something that was very different that a 100 years earlier, if you had shown somebody a photograph of an office in Atlanta, Georgia, an office in Phoenix, an office in Anchorage, we could tell you instantly where they were. And now we were in something where they all looked identical and they had this cheap energy being poured into them. And the insight that I had that night that turned me around, sent me back to the United States, got me into law school and tried to affect change was this recognition that this was likely to be a brief episode and that a great many of the problems that we were facing were from our efforts to ignore and even fight against the basic principles of ecology instead of... As Ian Marc wrote about it, and I learned later with Design with Nature and that if we could really do things differently, much learning with what we would now call biomimicry to build what we would now call on principles of urban ecology and industrial ecology. All of this being a vocabulary that did not exist, but which I am intuiting that night, but we could overcome a great deal and reproducing a world in which we cherished diversity on and on those sorts of things and use at least as metaphors within ecologic principles. I got up the phone, I did not sleep at all that night. I thought that this was just this blinding inside I intended to return home and among other things, right in environmental, [inaudible] that it is plain phone in terms, which I have actually tried to do a couple of times and success. But got up the following morning having gone, rolled out the Cleveland bag, was a guy that could not even much think of any reason to go on living and got up the following morning with a pretty clear direction for what I was going to do with my life.
SM (01:13:05):
Wow. Yeah. Your whole link to Earth Day and your meeting Senator Nelson, and then being the organizer, when you look at that experience of 1970, and can you talk a little bit about the teach-ins, which is a certainly important quality of anybody. It was a boomer that lived, they had to experience or be a part of some teach-in. How important were the teach-ins? Because I know that was part of your responsibility, and what was that feeling like of, again, just that you're young, you are being given responsibility at a very early age to organize this very important birthday event that you care so deeply about in working with people who felt like you are the same way. What was just your feelings of that 1970 and working with Senator Nelson and all the young people on Earth Day?
DH (01:14:04):
Well, it was an extraordinary opportunity to make a leap in a direction that I was slowly trying to plot my way to work. I mean, I flew down to Washington because I had not heard anything about an environmental teacher at Harvard, or I was at that time or at all until it appeared in an article that Claman Hill wrote in the New York Times based on a talk that Gaylord given down in early house. And since I had not heard of it, I figured nobody was organizing it since they did not mention anybody except Gaylord, just with all of the arrogance of you down to Washington too, even Senator. And my hope was to get the charter to go back and organize Harvard. And what was a five- or 10-minute courtesy conversation was changed by the fact that that New York Times article had been written and mail was beginning to pour into Senator Nelson's office from mostly schools across the country. At that point, from people who had read the article or had read an article about the article and wanted to know how they could become engaged. So we talked in for an hour, hour and a half, and I left with the commission to go up and organize Boston, which was way beyond what I thought of doing when I went down to Washington. Then it turned out that Gaylord had asked Republican Congressman Pete McCloskey to be his co-chair, so that be the Democratic Senator and Republican congressman and McCloskey turned out to be the congressman that represented Stanford, right. And [inaudible] president of the student body and deeply involved in a lot of political stuff. I did not know McCloskey, but when Gaylord asked him about this kid from Stanford, McCloskey, I heard of me and called from the Friends of Banford and took their temperature and basically got back saying, "He seems like he is a pretty soft guy." So I then got a call a week later saying, "Would you consider dropping out of school and coming down and organizing the United States?" That was not a career trajectory that I had. Figured it was just a really powerful new opportunity and really did not even think about it for more than that conversation. I accepted on the spot. It just seemed like in alignment of what I wanted to do. Called a few friends, got some people from Harvard who were my classmates to come down and join me, wish on it. And shockingly, by midway through the next month, it became clear. We began calling around to every university in the country and as a college and university thing. There just was not much interest on the part of the people that we knew how to bolt us together, people with their roots and these various other movements for us. And there were some college chapters in the National Wildlife Federation, what have you. And then there were some colleges where those schools of forestry, or there were no schools of the environment, but something that had to do with natural resources would want to do something. But it was viewed as an educational venture. And it's basically not much more than a seminar with maybe a couple of displays out the court garden. I suddenly had this horrible sense. But I would set myself up for a belly flop and we did this survey of all those letters that had come in and found that... Now, in addition to the letters from the K to 12 schools, we immediately set up a K-12 school coordinator, a guy named Bryce Hamilton did a fabulous job pulling all that together. The bulk of the remaining letters were from these women that I mentioned earlier. Basically between the ages of 25 and 35, college educated, one or two children had not much been involved in anything before that was political, but had a fair amount of talent that they were in homes where the husband was breadwinner and they were around home with their kids, but now their kids were sufficiently out of their hair, that they had time to do some other stuff in this environment that really appealed to them. But also in part because of the impact that would have on their children. And the unknown story of what became was the engagement of these women. I mean, if you did a survey around through some of them are young, hit your boomer criteria of people who went on to become members of city councils, members of state legislatures, members of public service commissions, members of the United States Congress, and asked those that came of age during that period, how many of you had birthday as your first political experience, that the percentages would be staggering. And I virtually never give a talk someplace where there is a female public official when she does not come up to me and say, the first thing she ever do was my first birthday. So there was this huge unexplored thing. Our staff was all kids, and our press coverage was all this, was this youthquake, but in fact, it was this woman's thing that was going on, this slightly older women that fit basic big urban organization. So at that point, while the teachings continued, they basically shifted mostly to K to 12 and then the educational excursions in a few colleges, including a pretty good one at the University of Michigan. But we ran a big ad in the New York Times and dropped the teaching stuff from everything, including our letterhead, and embraced this new name of Earth Day and took it into public demonstrations and things that you could do in various kinds of service organizations and cities would put together, transformed into something that was much more based upon the kinds of things you would see in the civil rights era and the anti-war era in their later digs. I mean, what triggered Gaylord is in the earliest stages of both of those things, there were not college teachings that dealt with racism on campus or dealt with whether the war was a good idea or a bad idea. And then it was firstly debated, 1963, (19)64, (19)65, but by the time he got to 1970, Chen was viewed as a little bit passé on college campuses, and we needed to have a different vocabulary that we could use. That is where our birthday came from. And I want to say on Wheeler's behalf, he was just incredibly flexible about all of this stuff. He wanted to have a bunch, he gave a high degree of deference to us that were trying to actually get out there and organize things. And he embraced the new name with gusto and shifted his own remarks. Although he still did a lot of things on college campuses, he began addressing a lot of community groups. And then the final thing that made it all come together, that is an overstatement, but a final thing that was a huge benefit to us related to Nixon's southern strategy. And the fact that suddenly the future of the Republic Party and the nature of American politics was going in void. And there was a very attractive young mayor of New York, John Lindsay, who decided to inhabit that void. And he was pretty ambitious, and he really liked the environmental issue, and he just jumped into it with us. He assigned principal staff on his staff in New York to work with our organizers in New York City. They put up police protection for free. They gave us the insurance for free. They gave us porta potties around Central Park for free. It closed down 5th Avenue. So the 5th Avenue, you close it down, you got to crowd there instantly. And we had this event in New York City that had more than a million people involved in it. And it was not a teaching, it was a rally. Like most of the things around the country, there was nobody there saying, "No, pollution is a good thing." And a Larry Summers, got to send all your toxic waste to poor countries because the value of human life, poor countries was less than the value of human. It was not that debate at all. It was stop the goddamn pollution now. And that took place in the city where NBC, CBS, and ABC were located, where Time and Newsweek and the New York Times, the United Press, the Associated Press, I mean, it was at that point, New York to a greater extent than any place in the world is today, was the information communications capital. If something did not happen in New York, it is very difficult to convince people that it was happening every place else in the country. But if you have got Central Park and Fifth Avenue filled with prominent political people and celebrities of various kinds and this huge diverse thing there, then suddenly you have the images and you have got the reality that you can peg all of the other stuff that is taking place. Thousands of cities and neighborhoods, villages across the country all became part of this one story. And Lindsey really thought that this was something that he would be able to use to help drive a wedge into a new kind of political future. And he also acutely aware that Ed Muskie intended to use it on the Democratic side. When I was practicing law in San Francisco, my paralegal for a period of some years, a guy named Tom Helic, who was the son of John Helic. John Helic got out of the slammer, came down and had dinner and drinks with us, and we were reminiscing about the [inaudible]. He told me a story that serves my interest, but it also serves his interest. So probably a suspect.
SM (01:24:51):
Hold on one second.
DH (01:24:57):
This is going to be probably entirely myopic, but my sense is, if I wanted to look back at the 18th century at the time, people would be caring about the seven years’ war and all sorts of stuff that I cannot even make an intelligent comment about. And today we think of it as it is when the American Revolution took place, began to have the Industrial Revolution curve without anybody thinking of it as great. My sense historically is that the two things that I think will be remembered toward is that it is the era when the Information Revolution was launched, which I think is one of those true transformational technical revolutions. Federally changes everything from commerce to privacy but not fundamentally shaking the world. And the other will be that it is a time when human beings began to recognize that their aggregate activities had acquired the impact of a geophysical force. We can change the climate, poison the entire ocean, and eliminate species. We can do the sorts of things that you typically attribute to earthquakes and volcanoes and asteroids hitting the earth. And that we hopefully, as a result of the work of this generation began to behave more responsibly with regard to all of those things.
SM (01:26:39):
The thing I am not going to have time to do is ask list names and terms from the period for your response, but I want to end with this very last question. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? And again, I am going back to that question that Jan Scruggs who wrote that great book, To Heal A Nation, it has done a great job of healing the veterans, but has it done any job of healing the nation in any way? But when you see the wall, what does it mean to you and how do you respond to Jan Scruggs's book title, To Heal a Nation?
DH (01:27:31):
Well, Myolynn is a good personal friend. We have served on a board together for several years. I think she has done a lot of things that are powerful, but as you could claim of me with birthday, I think she and I both peaked early, but we both aspired things a bit later. I mean, I think it is just most fabulous thing she has done. And I think it did a wonderful job of allowing a multiple sensory acknowledgement, banking and healing of the whole set of people, many of whom went to Vietnam against their builds and did things that were, in many cases, heroic and saved their lives. That was really important. In terms of healing around right, left tensions, Black, white tensions, environmental versus traveled growth tensions. I am not sure that it aspired to do any of that. I have never really thought of it in terms that are broad before. I do not mean that at all to demean of it, but I think it does what it is set out to do, magnificently.
SM (01:28:52):
Oh, very good.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Denis Hayes
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Hayes, Denis ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Environmentalism; Lawyers; Earth Day Network; Solar Energy Research Institute; Bullitt Foundation; Hayes, Denis--Interviews
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Denis Hayes is an environmental advocate, a proponent of solar power, attorney, educator, and founder of the Earth Day Network, which works with over 180 nations in order to build environmental democracy. He was head of the Solar Energy Research Institute and president of the Bullitt Foundation in Washington. Hayes also received many awards including the national Jefferson Awards Medal for Outstanding Public Service. Hayes received his Bachelor's degree in History from Stanford University and a Juris Doctor degree at Stanford Law School.
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.198a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.198b
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McKiernan Interviews
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88:57
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Eugene Schoenfeld, 1935-
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld is a psychiatrist, author, lecturer and was a popular underground newspaper columnist. His column \"Dr. Hip\" was published in many newspapers including the Chicago Sun Times, Tampa Times, San Francisco Chronicle, and the San Francisco Examiner. Schoenfeld's books include Dear Dr. HipPocrates, Natural Food and Unnatural Acts, Jealousy: Taming the Green-Eyed Monster, and Dr. Hip's Down-To-Earth Health Guide."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld is a psychiatrist, author, lecturer and was a popular underground newspaper columnist. His column "Dr. Hip" was published in many newspapers including the <em>Chicago Sun-Times</em>, <em>Tampa Times</em>, <em>San Francisco Chronicle</em>, and the <em>San Francisco Examiner</em>. Schoenfeld's books include <em>Dear Dr. HipPocrates</em>, <em>Natural Food and Unnatural Acts</em>, <em>Jealousy: Taming the Green-Eyed Monster</em>, and <em>Dr. Hip's Down-To-Earth Health Guide</em>.</span>
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English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
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Interview Format
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Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Activism; STD; Birth control; Drug culture; Women's right; Summer of love; Segregation; Watergate; Vietnam War"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Activism; STD; Birth control; Drug culture; Women's rights; Summer of love; Segregation; Watergate; Vietnam War</span>
Date of Interview
2010-10-14
Duration
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149:55
Subject LCSH
Psychiatrists; Authors, American--20th century; Schoenfeld, Eugene, 1935--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Eugene Schoenfeld
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 14 October 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
Good morning. Good evening. And, just the first question I want to ask is could you give me a little bit about your background, your early years. You are a doctor, a little bit about your parents, your growing-up years, and why did you want to become a doctor?
ES (00:00:25):
All right. My mother was an immigrant. She came from Russia when she was 12 years old. Her parents had been separated by the First World War, and then by the Russian Revolution between 1913 and 1922. So, my mother, her younger sister, and their mother, my grandmother, were separated for nine years from my grandfather, again, because of first the First World War and then the Russian Revolution. My father's family also came from Russia. Actually, he came from Lithuania, and my father's eldest brother was born there, and then the family came to the United States. My father was born here. My father had been a union organizer, at time I was born, for the Transport Workers' Union, New York City, and that was a leftist union. My father was involved in leftist politics. In fact, he was a member of the Communist Party, and gave me my middle name, which is Lenin, L-E-N-I-N.
SM (00:02:02):
Oh.
ES (00:02:02):
A name that I stopped using after the Rosenbergs were executed-
SM (00:02:07):
Yeah.
ES (00:02:09):
...especially when applying to medical school, thinking-
SM (00:02:14):
Yeah.
ES (00:02:16):
…that would not have been good.
SM (00:02:17):
No.
ES (00:02:18):
I was delivered by my uncle, who married my mother's younger sister. I think that influenced me to be a doctor. It was curious, also, because he was related to the infamous Arnold Rothstein, who went to the 1919 World Series.
SM (00:02:46):
Oh.
ES (00:02:49):
When I first learned about that when I was a child, I asked my parents, they would not talk about it. It was a scandal. Especially at that time.
SM (00:02:59):
That was the Black Sox scandal?
ES (00:03:01):
Yes.
SM (00:03:01):
Yes.
ES (00:03:03):
Yeah, so he was a great uncle by marriage to me.
SM (00:03:10):
What was it like going to college or medical school in the (19)50s, particularly undergraduate school before you went on to med school?
ES (00:03:20):
I graduated college from the University of California at Berkeley. I went to high school in Miami Beach. My parents moved to Miami Beach when I was 12, and I went to high school there and then a year of college. Then, I transferred to Berkeley. I went back to Miami for medical school, beginning in 1957. Well, it was very different from Berkeley, at that time. Berkeley has always been a liberal area. It always has had at least some population of what was known then as Bohemians. Then, it was smaller. Now, of course, it was larger. It was quite a shock going back to school because medical school was much more regimented than-
SM (00:04:18):
Right.
ES (00:04:19):
...the undergraduate years at Berkeley. Also, at the time I went to medical school, we still had segregation in the South. And in fact, at the hospital where my medical school was training students, Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami, there were still segregated wards and segregated dining rooms for whites and blacks. I met a resident at the medical school, who had started eating his meals in the black cafeteria to integrate it, and I started doing the same with him. His name was Tom Brewer. It was very different. I was glad to leave Miami that time. I graduated medical school in 1961. I interned at Herrick Hospital in Berkeley, even though I was offered a prestigious internship in Miami, partly because, during medical school, I had met Ernest Hemingway's youngest son, Greg. And in the beginning of my second year of medical school, he invited me to go to a photographic safari to Angola the following summer with his roommate, Bob Kyle. And I told one of my professors I was going there. He said, "Well, as long as you are in Africa, in that part, why do not you see if you can visit the Albert Schweitzer Hospital in Gabon?" Because, at that time, the chief medical doctor under Albert Schweitzer, Frank Catchpool, had done some studies at the University of Miami Medical School in parasitology. So, I had a note of introduction to Dr. Catchpool, and I was able to, after our photographic safari in Angola, this was now the summer of 1959, I went to Lambaréné, and I met Albert Schweitzer and his daughter. And I was there, then, for two weeks. And when I returned and told one of my professors my adventures that summer, he said, "Well, I have just been made head of a committee that is going to award fellowships to medical students to study in remote areas of the world." He says, "If you get a letter inviting you back to this Schweitzer Hospital-"
SM (00:07:12):
Wow, what an experience.
ES (00:07:14):
Yeah. He said, "You can have this fellowship." So, I did obtain a letter inviting me back by Albert Schweitzer, and I returned in (19)60, or I spent the summer there at the Albert Schweitzer Hospital.
SM (00:07:34):
I can remember back in the late (19)50s, Jack Parr used to have a fascination with Albert Schweitzer and would I actually go visit him.
ES (00:07:42):
Yes, there were many, many visitors there.
SM (00:07:47):
Yeah, that was-
ES (00:07:48):
Yeah.
SM (00:07:49):
That experience itself, even before we start talking about your time in the Bay Area as in the (19)60s and the (19)70s and beyond, that experience of working with him for a year or two, what were you able to transfer into your future positions from that experience?
ES (00:08:10):
Well, his major philosophy was reverence for life, for all life. And this was the first exposure I had to, what is now called, ecology. Nothing was killed there unnecessarily. If they were doing construction work, rolling a wheelbarrow, and they came across a line of ants, they would lift up the wheelbarrow in order not to crush the ants. They would build around trees rather than cut down the trees. They tried to keep the hospital there as much like a native village as possible so that the area would be comfortable there. I had another chance to return there in 1965. Actually, it was through Greg Hemingway again, he is now dead. He died a woman. But he was offered this fellowship, but he could not do it and he recommended me. So, I flew to Boston and met with the head of the foundation, the International Cardiology Foundation, who is Paul Dudley White. Dr. White was President Eisenhower's physician.
SM (00:09:45):
Oh, yes.
ES (00:09:47):
And Dr. White was the one who really popularized the idea of riding bicycles you see now. So, then, I returned to Gabon while I was training to go there to do this research. It was a research project involving hypertension in Gabon because there were indications that was prevalent there, and it turns out that it was. And it seems to be a genetic predisposition in black people, and we see this here. We used to think that it was due to stress or racial discrimination, but it turns out not to be the case. During a few weeks before I was set to go there, Albert Schweitzer died. Dr. White asked me to go there anyway to conduct the research, so I had a chance to see the hospital before and after his death. Just before I left, I had an opportunity to take LSD. It was legal at that time. And so, I was, of course, interested in the effects of psychedelics, drugs in general. When I returned to Gabon that third time, I learned that native doctors there used a drug called Ibogaine. Actually, they used the plant that it comes from, the Iboga plant, in their ceremonies and for healing patients. And so, I had a chance to observe and participate in Iboga ceremonies there in Africa. And when I returned, on the way back, I stopped in France and obtained a quantity of Ibogaine, which was being prepared by a French pharmaceutical company. At that time, they would use small amounts of Ibogaine combined with vitamins as a pick-up tonic because small amounts of psychedelic, including LSD, act as a stimulant before they have the psychedelic effect in larger dose. They were also using Ibogaine at that time experimentally in French mental hospitals. So, when I returned to the United States to the Bay Area, I had a chance to do some work with the Ibogaine, and I was introduced to a doctor who had later started the free clinic movement, David Smith. See, I skipped a part where from 1963 to (19)64, I was at Yale University. I obtained a master's of public health there, and then that summer I was a ships doctor. That is it. Depression here. So, while doing work at the University of California at San Francisco, we were doing experiments with amphetamines on laboratory animals and some experimentation with the Ibogaine on ourselves. Dr. Smith had the idea of organizing the little free clinics that had been started by the digger movement, and I had an idea about having a newspaper column dealing with questions and answers about drugs and other issues at the time. Around that time, the Berkeley Barb was started by a fellow named Max Scherr. Berkeley Barb was one of the first underground newspapers. I guess The Realist was probably the first Realist Underground magazine.
SM (00:14:25):
Right.
ES (00:14:30):
And so, I mentioned this to Mr. Scherr and he said, "Well, why do not you write a column?" I had always wanted to write in some fashion, but I had not thought about writing for newspapers or a medical column. But I started doing that. At first, I would use questions that people had asked me personally because it was a time when people were first starting to use drugs, such as marijuana and LSD, and people were eager to have questions answered about those drugs, and also about sexual activities. That time there were no easily available sources of information answering questions about sex and drugs, certainly not papers.
SM (00:15:27):
One of the things, right around that time, (19)65, (19)66, leading up to the Summer of Love in (19)67, how did the youth of the (19)60s differ from the youth of the (19)50s that you grew up with from your vantage point? And where did you see this change in the Bay Area? Obviously there was some Bohemian lifestyle over at Berkeley at all times, and of course the Beatniks were very popular in New York and Greenwich Village and in San Francisco, and-
ES (00:16:02):
Yes.
SM (00:16:03):
...so forth. But when did you see this shift, from your personal perspective, this big change happening in the way people's attitudes were, how young people were changing? It was a counter-cultural movement, a change.
ES (00:16:19):
Yes. From my point of view, I mean, maybe it was because I was living, but it seemed that it had started in the San Francisco area. Yes, you mentioned the Beatniks, and it was because it was a shift from the Eisenhower era. There were little coffee shops in San Francisco and in Berkeley. There was one called The Coexistence Bagel Shop because it was a time when speaking about coexistence with Russia after the Great Scare, the Evil Empire. So, it was a parody of the political situation at the time. I think that is when the shift occurred because people started to look at Russia not as a great enemy, but as something that we could exist with. That is why they call it Coexistence Bagel Shop. They were Beatniks. Mostly, the Beatniks were smoking cigarettes and drinking cheap wine. But there were some who started using marijuana, and that is when I first started seeing fairly large-scale marijuana use. Though my first exposure to it, though I did not use marijuana then, was an uncle I had when I was 14. It was in 1949. I had an uncle who he was an actor, a dance instructor, and went to borrow a jacket of his. In the jacket, I found this little yellow cigarette. I asked him if it was marijuana, and he said, matter-of-factly, "Yes." I did not try it then. It was my first exposure. The first time I saw fair numbers of people smoking marijuana was the Beatniks, and this was in 1958 because that summer, it was after my first year of medical school, I spent the next summer in Berkeley. That is when I first saw it. I think the combination of the philosophy and the lifestyle of the Beatniks led to the hippies.
SM (00:19:23):
Yeah. Obviously, you are coming from, you are not that much older, but you are almost like the graduate student or the PhD candidate compared to the incoming students that would have been the young boomers. Do you have any thoughts on them as a generation? You have seen them not only as a doctor, they have been your patients. You have seen them not only when they were young in the Summer of Love, but you have been able to see them as they have grown up into now. 63 is the front-runners of the baby boomers, and the youngest baby boomers are 47. If you were to list some strengths and weaknesses within this generation, can you list some?
ES (00:20:07):
Well, I think they had some strengths because their parents, which were generally more prosperous because the Second World War produced prosperity. At least, everyone was working as compared with when I was born, which was during the depression. So, I think they had more of a sense of self-assurance in that way, and I think it was because of the fact that their parents generally were not poor. They were not on bread lines. I mean, have not thought about this before this, going through this in my mind. So, I think that because of generally maybe having more assurance, they would probably be more open, less fixed on things that would give them more dependability. I think that produce some greater openness to other ideas. And that is what happened, as you say, leading up to the Summer of Love. I think they were more open to a lot of things, including more open sexuality and perhaps exploring their minds through means, such as drugs. And paradoxically, the drug use led to people being more open to ideas, which did not have things directly to do with drugs, such as meditation and yoga, et cetera, other spiritual practices. Not that all of that was good because one thing that has happened from all that is a suspicion and disdain for science, a feeling that if one has a gut reaction to something, that must be more true than using the scientific method, and that came from the fact that they would use drugs. It happens now. For example, when people are using ecstasy, they generally have a feeling of great love and warmth for everyone around them at the time. I mean, that is why, when ecstasy was legal and used in therapy, the patients would be warned not to make any enduring alliances for a period of weeks after they last took it because those feelings would dissipate and were directly drug related.
SM (00:23:51):
One of the things that the generation, and we are talking 74 million boomers that were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and a lot of the ones that were at the Summer of Love, were the front running boomers, the boomers born in those first 10 years. I am finding that the difference between the boomers of the first 10 and the second 10 is major in terms of the way they lived. But your thoughts on this attitude that many of them felt they were the most unique generation in American history when they were young, and that the Summer of Love, like a lot of experiences of that period, were supposed to be symbolic of this, "We are going to change the world. We are going to bring peace, love, we are going to end homophobia, sexism, war. We are going to make the world a better place to live." And so, there is a feeling of uniqueness that they were better and different than the World War II generation or any of the generations that preceded them, and those that would follow. Your thoughts on that attitude that many of them had at that time. And even today, I know of several people that feel so very proud of being part of that generation that they still feel it.
ES (00:25:19):
Yeah. I mean, that is because the war, the war effort, the country was together then, I think, as never before or at any time since, and there was a feeling that we had been so powerful. We had conquered the axis powers, and there was, for a time, a feeling of hopefulness. The United Nations was going to be world peace. I think that certainly influenced that generation.
SM (00:26:04):
I have interviewed a lot of people. Some people thought that that showed a sense of arrogance within this generation. Do you feel that?
ES (00:26:11):
Well, I did not think of it that way, but I think of it as being over optimistic.
SM (00:26:25):
Okay. 1967, I got a whole mess of questions here and I got a lot of different areas to go, but I want to talk about (19)67 because it was a very historic event. What was it like being a doctor in San Francisco in (19)67, and what were the major issues that young people were facing at that time in the summer, whether it be drug issues, sexual freedom issues? I saw a great interview you did on YouTube with one of the commentators. He has a radio show. Hammond?
ES (00:26:58):
Oh, yeah. John Hammond.
SM (00:26:59):
That was an excellent interview.
ES (00:27:00):
Well, thank you.
SM (00:27:03):
And you had made a very important comment, and I wanted to bring this up. It was after the pill, and it was before AIDS.
ES (00:27:11):
That is right.
SM (00:27:12):
Could you talk about what you mean by that, especially in reference to the summer of (19)67?
ES (00:27:18):
All right. The true Summer of Love began in 1966, because that is when it was the beginning of large-scale LSD use, marijuana use, and associated openness to things, including sexuality. And so, because there was no longer the great fear of unwanted pregnancy due to the birth control pills and other effective contraceptive method, and whatever sexual infections might develop as a result could be treated then. And that is why it was before AIDS is, before, sexuality could be [inaudible]. So, as I say, the real Summer of Love began in 66, and that is what attracted people to San Francisco, where I was at the time, the following summer, in (19)67. I had started writing a newspaper column in March of 1967, and I invited people to send questions. And of course, then, questions were mostly about sexuality and drugs. People wanted to know what sexual diseases could occur, what the effects of various drugs were, and I had to do some research in these matters. But I was very interested in the fact that some columnists apparently make up letters. I never had to make up a letter. The letters were very-very interesting. And I started out writing the so-called underground press, so I would print the letters pretty much as they appeared in whatever language people used to describe or ask questions about sexual acts. When the newspaper column went to the San Francisco Chronicle, and then was syndicated nationally by the Universals Press syndicate, language was edited then.
ES (00:30:03):
Your language was edited then. Then it would appear general newspapers. But as I said, there was no easily accessible source of information that it was available in books. I would read books, around that time also, I saw her doing radio shows, and I am told I was the first person to answer medical questions live on the radio.
SM (00:30:36):
Is that in the entire country?
ES (00:30:38):
Yes.
SM (00:30:38):
Wow. That is quite a unique honor.
ES (00:30:42):
Yes. I was glad to do it. I knew it was important because I mentioned a little while ago that I had Master degree in public health from Yale, so I knew the importance of public health education. I saw this as a way of importing information that was important, and it was interesting. So a number of times I have had regular radio programs. I mean, this was before Dr. Dini Dell. Before [inaudible] or Dr. Ruth was publicly doing things.
SM (00:31:24):
Right. When the Summer of Love obviously is (19)67. And when we say Summer of Love, are we only talking about the summer? Are we talking only about a few months? Or are we talking about The entire 1967 year? One of the songs this was well known on the radio at the time was Scott McKenzie's song, if You are Going to San Francisco.
ES (00:31:50):
Yeah.
SM (00:31:51):
I cannot remember if that came out in (19)66 or (19)67, but I know that had a lot of influence on people.
ES (00:31:57):
Yes, it did. Yeah, I knew him. I met him a few times. Yeah, it did have an influence. Yes, it was not just the summer. As I said, it really began (19)66 and during the end of (19)66 and beginning of (19)67 people were starting to come to the Bay Area. Yes, influenced by songs like that, which I think some of the lyrics described how warm and bombing it was in San Francisco made all of us laugh your –
SM (00:32:33):
Well, I lived in Burlingame from (19)76 to (19)83, so I –
ES (00:32:38):
Yeah, so you know.
SM (00:32:39):
I love it out there though. It makes you feel good. Tweed Coats. I love my Tweed. I miss wearing my Tweed Coats. But yeah, it is really interesting. Another song that influenced was around (19)67 that got people to the West Coast, and I know it got me to the West Coast, was the Mamas and the Papas song, California Dreaming, which was another big hit that, especially if it went to college in the middle of the winter with a lot of snow on the ground. I had all these questions here in the Summer of Love. How did it start? You already talked about that. What was the draw? How did people know? Where did they come from? What was the average age?
ES (00:33:27):
They were?
SM (00:33:28):
Where did they stay when they came? And those kinds of things?
ES (00:33:33):
Well, there were young people generally who came, if they knew people here, they would stay with them, crash with them, share their apartments and homes. They were generally, at first, there were people who were interested in exploring, in exploring. Exploring themselves, exploring their minds, exploring things geographically. Later it became a [inaudible] so that people were coming because they knew that other people were coming. So it changed a lot. At first, you could tell things about someone by the way they dressed or the length of their hair, but that soon changed, so you could not tell anything about a person because the followers, those who just had heard about the Summer of Love and San Francisco come and there were a lot of disturbed people and a criminal element soon came in and started taking advantage of the –
SM (00:35:20):
Yes.
ES (00:35:24):
Open-minded young people who we came to know as hippies.
SM (00:35:31):
I think that is what Mr. Hammond said in his interview with you on YouTube is that (19)67 was the golden era, and then all hell broke loose at (19)68.
ES (00:35:42):
Yes.
SM (00:35:43):
And that is because the drug traffickers were coming in. People were dealing in drugs, and actually even a lot of the hippies and young people wanted to get the hell out of there because of things had changed.
ES (00:35:56):
Yes, and even the drugs changed because at first it was marijuana and LSD and other psychedelics. And then people came in, started selling heroin and amphetamines that changed a lot. So when people want to leave, then there was a feeling, well, we were going to get out of the city and go to the country. And that is how the Commune Right then started. People had the idea that they would try to be self-sufficient and grow their own food, raise their own animals back to the plan.
SM (00:36:44):
Yeah. Farm's a perfect example of that.
ES (00:36:47):
Yes, that is right.
SM (00:36:49):
Steven Gaskin and I interviewed Steven for my book, and that particular, he does not even like to use the term commune. Calls it the farm. They have been very successful and they were very proud of being hippies because it was more of an attitude. When I look at, there was a very popular book, you remember back in the early (19)70s, we had to read it in grad school called The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak.
ES (00:37:18):
Yes.
SM (00:37:19):
And that book –
ES (00:37:19):
I knew him. Yeah.
SM (00:37:20):
Yeah, well, I wanted to interview him, but I guess he is not well right now, and he has written another book as kind of a follow-up, but he really explained the counterculture, combining drugs, the sex, the dancing, the music, the dress, the attitude. It was all a combination of everything into different consciousness. Did you see that there? Was that a pretty good portrayal of what it was like in the Summer of Love?
ES (00:37:46):
Yes. As I say, you could tell which people were part of that movement often by their dress, because they were static dress, people would dress flamboyantly. I mean now I tell my wife in Halloween, which is as a big holiday out here.
SM (00:38:13):
Yeah, that is big.
ES (00:38:14):
So in the Summer of Love, everyone dressed like that every day. So...
SM (00:38:24):
You were in charge, correct if I am wrong, you were in charge of the health clinic? The Haight Ashbury Health Clinic?
ES (00:38:36):
I was not in charge. I was –
SM (00:38:38):
Associate Director or –
ES (00:38:41):
Yeah, I was Director of the Family Practice section of The Haight Ashbury Clinic whose directed by David Smith. He founded it, he directed it. I worked with them for a long time, and then later they have a rock medicine section, still exists. I worked at that also. It was long after the Summer of Love. But yes, I did. I helped through my newspaper columns. I helped publicize the Ashbury Clinic, let people know it was available and offered free services and the kinds of services that they provided.
SM (00:39:28):
On a typical day, let us say you were there, were you eight hours a day? Or you came in just on an assignment or what would it be A typical day in the Summer of Love with the young people coming in and out of there? What would be their issues?
ES (00:39:45):
Well, some people had unfortunate drug experiences. Sometimes there was, and they were concerned, have a bad trip, an LSD trip, and were upset by that. There were a lot of sexually transmitted diseases that were treated in Ashbury clinic, especially at that time because of the open sexuality. Naturally, the more exposure someone has, the more chance they have contracting a disease. So there is a lot of exposure and more disease, a lot of treatment of gonorrhea crabs at that time. Other sexually transmitted diseases.
SM (00:40:50):
Well, I know one of the bands that performed there in the summertime was the Grateful Dead, and I think they lived in Haight Ashbury.
ES (00:40:57):
Yes.
SM (00:40:57):
And lived. They had that same kind of an attitude, although they were much more successful cause they were a successful band. Can you talk about the combination of that experience again in the summer or were you combined not only the young people coming in, but, the music had to be a very important part of this. It was much more than the Grateful Dead. Who were the musicians and where were they coming from to be part of this? Were they all Bay Area musicians or were they coming from different parts of the country during different times of the summer?
ES (00:41:38):
Much of it was based here in the Bay Area. For example, the Jefferson Airplane, the local band Country Joe and the Fish and other bands. I think, Crosby Stills and Nash often was based here. Crosby lived in Mill Valley at that time, and they also operated a lot in Los Angeles. But the music at that time, I mean it was all intertwined with the drug use, the effects of the drugs, effects of the drugs on the music, and then the music affecting drug use. I thought that generally the overall effect was positive. Of course, we know there were disasters for some people, plus it was a lot of indiscriminate drug use during that time. Tim Leary –
SM (00:42:58):
Hold on one second, I am going to change my tape here. All righty. We are back.
ES (00:43:08):
During that time, I became acquainted and then friends with Tim Leary and his family, and I became a family doctor for the Leary family at that time. And Tim was very charismatic, very bright. He had a good sense of humor, but I always found objectionable is it was sorting people to take LSD all the time was not for everyone. Certainly not for unstable people, and not to be taken all the time as he had proposed, he was telling people to use LSD once a week, and I did not think that was a good idea at all.
SM (00:44:03):
What is your thought about that famous slogan of his tune on –
ES (00:44:10):
Yeah, turn on –
SM (00:44:13):
Turn-on dropout or whatever.
ES (00:44:14):
Yeah.
SM (00:44:15):
Tune in turn on dropout. What are your thoughts on that? Of course, he was also linked to the Ram Dass.
ES (00:44:18):
Yes.
SM (00:44:22):
And Ram Dass went on to be very successful as a writer. I guess he has had a stroke recently, but –
ES (00:44:25):
He had a stroke.
SM (00:44:27):
But they were kind of linked too. But just your thoughts on that whole kind of an attitude?
ES (00:44:33):
Well, Tim had a great way of, with phrases, and I was interesting phrase and turn on and drop out. I said to him at the time, I said, Tim, you have got a PhD. I have an MD. You are telling these kids to drop out of college. And a lot of them did because there are more followers and leaders, and a lot of lives were disrupted that way. I did not think that was a good idea at all. And it was because of the indiscriminate use and abuse of LSD and other psychedelics that the legitimate use was thwarted. Only now, only in the last year or so has the government begun to approve studies of LSD and psilocybin and MDMA or ecstasy, and we are back to where we were in 1966 when they were doing the same preliminary studies. Maybe now they will continue them and permit them, but as I said, it was because of [inaudible] K was largely cost of 10 at 10 TC that yes, that the government clamped down and stomped. I think it is a great shame. I think these drugs have a very good potential for use in therapy. And when there is no psychiatric illness for self-exploration.
SM (00:46:29):
How would you, for example, a critic of, I am just using, I am being the devil's advocate here, that a critic of the total drug culture, maybe not marijuana, but everything else, is that, what is wrong with reality itself? Why get away from reality and go into drugs and get another reality? And then secondly, what is the effect that drugs had on that generation? I do not know if anybody's ever even written a book on the number of young people who died from ODing on drugs. We know what happened to Jimi Hendrix and Janice Joplin and Jim Morrison and some of the well-known people who OD'ed on drugs. You would think that might have had a negative effect on the drug culture.
ES (00:47:16):
Yeah, I mean, they all OD'ed on opioids, which I cannot see if they expand consciousness at all. I feel like this has the beginning of that.
SM (00:47:33):
Yeah, the beginning was critics, so I am a person –
ES (00:47:36):
So what is wrong with reality?
SM (00:47:40):
Yeah you know, is life –
ES (00:47:42):
One thing that the psychedelics do is put people in touch with the unconscious, which is part of reality. It is just that normally we do not have access that way to our unconscious except in dreams in some form. So by giving us access to our unconscious, we have an expanded knowledge of reality because that is part of reality.
SM (00:48:25):
What –
ES (00:48:27):
Thought that these consciousness expanding drugs produce a better reality, this expands our knowledge of reality.
SM (00:48:42):
Well, the 40th anniversary that took place in 2007, I saw little segments of that on television and certainly on YouTube and other places.
ES (00:48:53):
Yeah.
SM (00:48:53):
Was it basically people that experienced it coming back there, or was it basically a combination of young people and older people?
ES (00:49:06):
It was a mix, but certainly it included a large number of people who had lived through the (19)60s, many of whom had been at Woodstock, many of whom had been in San Francisco at the Summer of Love those celebrations, but there were a number of younger people.
SM (00:49:32):
How did you get the name Dr. Hipp? Dr. Hippocrates.
ES (00:49:38):
Right. Started when I was asked to do the newspaper column, the publisher of the Berkeley Barb Max Scherr said, well, what should we call the column? I said, well, what do you mean? Just use my name? Says well know we have a hippies here? How about calling it Hippocrates? I said, okay.
SM (00:50:03):
Right.
ES (00:50:03):
So it was Hippocrates. And then some of the newspapers started calling the column Dr. Hippocrates, and then some of them shortened it to Dr. Hipp, and then they started calling me Dr. Hipp. So that is how I became Dr. Hipp.
SM (00:50:22):
Now, when you walk around the Bay Area, do they call you by your real name or do they call you Dr. Hipp?
ES (00:50:26):
Well, some of the older individuals still remember me as Dr. Hipp.
SM (00:50:33):
That that is a very good feeling though. That you had an influence on people's lives for the better. And one thing we always ask ourselves as human beings is we want to make a difference in this world. And obviously you have in the many things that you have done, particularly with all your work in medicine.
ES (00:50:52):
Yeah, I have tried. I always gave a lot of attention to my work, writing newspapers, writing the papers, writing articles, doing my radio shows, because I knew that if people listened, they were eager to receive information and would act on it. So I was always trying to be careful about the advice that I gave.
SM (00:51:22):
Did you see the Generation gap when you were there working with these young people? In other words, did you have, I am sure there were experiences where parents somehow got back into San Francisco and found their son or daughter and said, we were going to take you home. Did you have any of those experiences where the big generation gap was taking place?
ES (00:51:41):
Yes. I mean, I cannot think of any specifics right now, but yes, of course parents were concerned because sometimes their children would run away. And then when they found their kids, their kids were using drugs that the parents were unfamiliar with, concerned about, and often, rightly so. Yes. And that is how the Gap stores the clothing stores. They used to be called a Generation Gap, and then they became The Gap.
SM (00:52:18):
Oh, I did not know that.
ES (00:52:19):
Yes.
SM (00:52:20):
Wow. Was also the Summer of Love really all-inclusive in terms of ethnic background? Were there African Americans there in large numbers, Latinas, Asian Americans? Was it a combination? Was everybody involved?
ES (00:52:35):
Yeah. Yes, it was. And part of what was happening was that there was a greater acceptance of different ethnic groups and races and religious beliefs. And that was one of the benefits of that time.
SM (00:52:57):
Was the music the same way? In other words, you might have the Grateful Dead one day and the Staple Singers the next, was it a kind of a different, all kinds of music?
ES (00:53:07):
Yes. And it was also when people started becoming interested in reggae, of course, and –
SM (00:53:12):
Right.
ES (00:53:12):
Reggae associated with marijuana you know in Jamaica?
SM (00:53:20):
Yeah. I remember when I lived out there, I used to go to some of the blues concerts at the Shell at Golden Gate Park.
ES (00:53:28):
Yes.
SM (00:53:29):
And I remember seeing Red, not Simply Red, the Rock Singer, I remember Red was his name. He is passed away. But it was one of the best concerts I have ever been at all day on a Saturday, I believe, of all these great blues singers. One of the other thing too is how, let us see, who were some of your mentors and role models yourself? People that inspired you, not only, you have already mentioned some of your relatives and people that influenced you to become a doctor, but were there people in America at the time that you looked up to, whether it be politicians –
ES (00:54:11):
Less or a lot of skepticism regarding so-called gurus and groups? I think that skepticism came from growing up in a communist house. Hearing and seeing the slogans at that time. And then in the (19)60s, those slogans, it was to me, seemed empty. Slogans were repeated, and I thought, oh yeah, workers are going to overthrow the bosses, things like that. So I never actively pursued any spiritual group or person. It usually would happen accidentally. Like being exposed to and having experiences with Albert Schweitzer, that was very important to me. I was close to him and to his family. And his daughter died about a year and a half ago, and she was 90, remained close to her, to her death because she lived then in Los Angeles Pacific lsa-
SM (00:55:40):
Right. You had mentioned that on your YouTube interview.
ES (00:55:42):
Yeah. So that was very important. I think that for a long time I spent a lot of time with Tim Leary, and during that time, got to meet a lot of people. There was a lot of traffic through his house. That is when I met from Ram Dass then as Richard Alpert, Ralph Metzner. And it influenced me at the same time that I was, by that time, I knew that matter how famous a person was, no matter how well known or how revered the person, he or she had play feet, just like Albert Schweitzer. I would see failings in him -blow was his greatness. So...
SM (00:56:44):
I can remember there was a scene with Timothy Leary, along with John Lennon and Yoko Oho and Tommy Smothers. I remember when he was doing in the bed.
ES (00:56:54):
Yes, that is right.
SM (00:56:55):
And I remember Timothy Leary was there. I said, this guy was everywhere. How did the city of San Francisco deal with all these people coming in? Was there a good relationship between the young people of the Summer of Love and the police and the political leaders at that time?
ES (00:57:16):
Initially it was okay, but then as more and more young people came, there was more concern, especially from the police. It did not, that period of goodwill did not last very long. Because again, because of the great numbers of people came, especially in the Haight Ashbury section of San Francisco, and the resulting situations, including the rampant drug use, camping out, being out begging.
SM (00:57:59):
Remember Harry Reasoner, the ABC did a report once on TV and I still remember seeing it, and it was when they were doing tourists going through Haight Ashbury.
ES (00:58:08):
Yeah, the Gray Line Tourists, you –
SM (00:58:13):
Yeah. And he was there for a couple of days, I think, doing a report. And what is interesting after living out there to see how expensive those Victorian homes now are that were in Haight Ashbury.
ES (00:58:22):
Oh yeah. They are all million-dollar homes now.
SM (00:58:25):
Yeah. It is amazing. In those days, they were kind of falling apart, I think.
ES (00:58:31):
Yep.
SM (00:58:32):
What is your, just for you to define things, I asked Steve Gaskins this too. If you could define in your words what a hippie is, what a beatnik is, and your definition of a counterculture. So first off, in your definition of a hippie.
ES (00:58:54):
Well, these were people who were willing to depart from the usual career paths that people took. They had a more open attitude towards sexual freedom, toward the roles of men and women. A greater appreciation for nature. Know the benefits of unspoiled nature, and an openness toward exploring their minds, whether it be through spiritual practices or through the use of drugs, or both.
SM (00:59:53):
And a beatnik?
ES (00:59:54):
Part of it. That is why, oh, they start it longhaired hippies. Well, started thinking, well, why do we have to cut our hair in a certain way?
ES (01:00:03):
...do we have to cut our hair in a certain way? Why are neckties a uniform that one must wear? When you think about really, even now, why do people wear neckties? And we have buttons now to close our shirts. Need a necktie to do. It was originally done. So there was a questioning. People were asking questions. Remember one of the slogans at the time, question authority? So it was the willingness to question all kinds of things. Some of that did not lead to good things because over generations and hundreds or thousands of years, humans have learned there are certain things, certain ways to behave socially. When people indiscriminately did not follow those customs or habits, there were bad results sometimes.
SM (01:01:31):
Mm-hmm. Hold. Okay. How would you define a beatnik?
ES (01:01:37):
Well, beatniks, I think that came from, if I am not mistaken, Herb Caen coined that term. Herb Caen, the late columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle. First they were called the beats. I guess he felt beaten down by society. It was a style of drinking excessive amounts of cheap wine, smoking lots of tobacco. You are beat. You are trying to express the way that they felt at that time.
SM (01:02:38):
And lastly, how would you define the counterculture? Your definition of the counterculture?
ES (01:02:46):
Well, it was a reaction to the overall culture. So it was less conformity for the sake of conformity. And that led to differences in dress, the type of music that was composed and played. Art was just by definition counter mean quite the opposite of the general culture or against general culture. But when people found things in the culture that they found objectionable, they tried to act on it.
SM (01:03:40):
Vietnam veterans, obviously, I got some questions here on Vietnam in a minute, but there were Vietnam veterans even coming back, and I am sure there were some in the Summer of Love that had served already in Vietnam between (19)65 and (19)67.
ES (01:03:56):
Yes.
SM (01:03:57):
In looking at your biography, you worked I think in a veterans facility at one time. Did you see a lot of post-traumatic stress disorder of vets coming back?
ES (01:04:10):
You mean at that time?
SM (01:04:11):
Yes.
ES (01:04:16):
Yes, there were people who were traumatized. For example, I know Ron Kovic a little bit. Certainly he was traumatized physically as well as mentally.
SM (01:04:34):
Was it pretty common? Because I have been talking recently with some Iraq veterans who have come back from Iraq, and it was almost a hundred percent post-traumatic stress disorder within groups.
ES (01:04:49):
Well, it was not known then as post-traumatic stress disorder. You remember they call it shell shocked, battle fatigue, things of that kind. But as PTSD became better known, it was I think why there was more autism now. It was recognized more and reported more. I think that is why there is as much PTSD the Iraq War. In the Vietnam War, it was a great rejection of many of the veterans who came back, even though most of them were conscripts. The Iraq War were all volunteers. There is no draft now. But I think because of greater recognition and publicity about the fact that PTSD may occur.
SM (01:06:06):
When you were out there... Well, you have lived out there your whole life there. But there were some specific historic events at Berkeley. The Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65, Mario Savio and that group. And then People's Park in (19)69, of which one person was killed during that.
ES (01:06:26):
Yes. I was there during those demonstrations. I wrote about. I have published four books so far. The first two were based on newspaper columns, articles. I wrote about the People's Park in a book called Natural Food and Unnatural Acts. It was published by Delacorte. Yes, it was a tumultuous time. It was very disturbing and startling to be exposed to the National Guard so often, tear gas. I am very sensitive to tear gas. Tear gas is released near me, and I cannot stay around. So a number of times I was at the People's Park demonstration.
SM (01:07:36):
That was actually when Ronald Reagan was governor, I believe. When he came into power, he promised two things: that he was going to set the students straight, number one, and number two, that he was going to end welfare. And I know I have interviewed Ed Meese, who was the assistant district attorney of Alameda County, who was there at the Free Speech Movement. But he was not working for Reagan then; Reagan was People's Park.
ES (01:08:06):
Right.
SM (01:08:08):
And they had come really hard down on those people. That is part of the history of that period, but what effect do you think that had on the boomer generation as a whole? Because it was all over the news.
ES (01:08:28):
It was shocking. Well, first, there had not been large demonstrations by students, political demonstrations like that before, at least that I have been aware of. When I was a student in Berkeley, the only large demonstrations then were panty raid. I do not know if you remember the panty raids, but there were a couple of big panty raids at Berkeley where there were thousands of students gathered, and they would go into the sorority houses and rifle through the drawers and get panties. It was silly, but it was the first time that I saw thousands of people out in the street and then a police presence which followed. When it happened for political reasons it was dramatic, it was exciting, and it was disturbing. I had demonstrated against the Vietnam War, and I was at a protest at the Oakland Induction Center and this club there. But there I saw for the first time that these demonstrations might turn violent. I saw a police car overturned and burned, which I did not care for. I was then so recently coming from the experiences I had with Albert Schweitzer and Reverence for Life, that things should be hurt or killed unnecessarily. And I saw that turning very disturbing.
SM (01:10:47):
When did the (19)60s begin in your opinion, and when did it end?
ES (01:10:51):
Well, let us see. (19)60s, about 1963, I would say, (19)64. I know you are not talking about the literal terminology. About (19)63 I think it corresponded in a way with the assassination of JFK. I was a student at Yale at that time that it happened.
SM (01:11:38):
Do you remember where you were when you heard the news?
ES (01:11:42):
Yes. I was meeting with a faculty advisor, and his secretary came into the office and said, "The president has been shot and likely killed." This professor says to me calmly, "Well, these things happen." And he tried to go on with our meeting. I said, "Well, let us meet another time." So I remember exactly what happened.
SM (01:12:09):
And were you one of those individuals watching the TV all weekend?
ES (01:12:13):
Yes, to the TV then. I think that is when it really started. Maybe a little bit before with the Cuban Missile Crisis.
SM (01:12:26):
Right. (19)62. When did it end?
ES (01:12:32):
I think it ended with the Altamont concert.
SM (01:12:38):
You are not the only one that said that. Some people said they thought it ended with Kent State too, because that was a terrible tragedy.
ES (01:12:45):
Yeah, and that really dampened the student demonstrations. I know people I have talked to about that, some disagree, but I noticed that after the Kent State shootings, there were fewer demonstrations. Actually, people were afraid, rightly so. But I think it really ended at Altamont, because it was such a terrible scene. I was there.
SM (01:13:14):
Oh, you were there?
ES (01:13:16):
Yes.
SM (01:13:17):
Oh, wow.
ES (01:13:18):
I wrote about that too. That is also in the book, Natural Food and Unnatural Acts.
SM (01:13:24):
I got to get that book. Is that book still in print?
ES (01:13:26):
No. I think you can get it on Amazon or something.
SM (01:13:28):
Okay. I am going to order it then.
ES (01:13:32):
I always thought that book was a good history of the (19)60s. It was a terrible scene. It was so ugly. I did not go to a large concert seven years after.
SM (01:13:49):
I heard stories that the group responsible for getting the Hell's Angels there was Jerry Garcia. Is there truth to that?
ES (01:13:57):
Yes.
SM (01:13:59):
And he felt guilty the rest of his life?
ES (01:14:03):
Yeah, I think so. I knew him. They always had a relationship with the Hells Angels. Hells Angels were fans of the Grateful Dead. And they were asked to do security there in exchange for, I do not know, so many cases of beer. So it was a huge mistake. There was an interview later after that with Sonny Barger, who was then the head of Hells Angels. He said someone kicked their motorcycles, so they were in a rage about that.
SM (01:14:52):
They killed one person. Did they injure other people too?
ES (01:14:55):
Yes, there were other people injured. There were other people injured by Hells Angels, no one else killed by it. There was another death there. There was someone who was run over by a car accidentally.
SM (01:15:10):
Was not the Rolling Stones performing when that happened?
ES (01:15:13):
Yes.
SM (01:15:15):
Did the concert end?
ES (01:15:17):
No.
SM (01:15:17):
It kept going on?
ES (01:15:18):
It kept going on. Mick Jagger did ask people to calm down. The part of the problem was that, well, first it started off as a nice day, then it became overcast and gloomy, and everyone was waiting for the Rolling Stones to go on. They would not go on until dark fell. By that time, things were unruly. And the concert had been put together at the last minute. Anyway, that is the site, I think the last minute, it was a kind of frenzy that developed. And then the Rolling Stones would not go on until dark fell. And then Mick Jagger was singing Sympathy for the Devil and doing that. The Hells Angels, during that time, they were beating people with a pool cue.
SM (01:16:20):
And they were in the front of the stage and to the left and right of the stage, I guess.
ES (01:16:23):
Yes, and the stage was not high enough so that people could attempt to go on the stage, and they were pushed off and hit by the Hells Angels.
SM (01:16:34):
Were the Hells Angels drunk?
ES (01:16:40):
I do not know what they were using. I do not know. I have had various dealings with them over the years. I do not know if you know anything about my current work or not.
SM (01:16:53):
I do not.
ES (01:16:56):
I do a lot of consulting with lawyers in both civil and criminal cases, usually about the effects of psychoactive drugs, but sometimes other issues as well. So sometimes lawyers for the Hells Angels have asked me to help in their cases. And sometimes they have been referred to me or their wives for treatment, either for drug abuse or for their other issues.
SM (01:17:36):
Is there one specific event that you feel had the greatest impact on boomers, that is those born between (19)46 and (19)64? You may have already said it, but do you think there is one event that more than any other shaped this generation?
ES (01:17:53):
Well, it was not one event, but I think you know that Woodstock epitomized a lot of things that were happening. It involved music, drug use, large crowds at that time being able to get along without a lot of disruptions, a lot of fights. I think that and what it represented was probably. But it was not any one event like that. It was the Vietnam War.
SM (01:18:48):
Do you like the term the boomer generation? I say that because I have had a lot of different opinions from people. And if not the boomer generation, what would be a better term? Would it be the Vietnam generation, the counter-culture generation, the Woodstock generation? What do you think best applies to this group in terms of terminology?
ES (01:19:15):
I would say the Woodstock generation, the Summer of Love. Except the Summer of Love, just by definition, specifies one summer. Whereas even though Woodstock generation refers to one event, it really refers to more than one event.
SM (01:19:41):
You have obviously seen boomers from many different angles over the years. And I know you cannot talk about 74 million here, but do you think that boom generation has been good parents and now grandparents? In other words, have they sat down and shared their experiences with their sons and daughters over the years, what it was like then, get a better understanding of the times? I always get at the term activism, because some people say the generations have followed have not been as activist as their parents. Although only 15 percent probably were active to begin with in that generation.
ES (01:20:23):
That is right.
SM (01:20:25):
In your practice, have you had issues where a lot of the boomers feel they have either not been good parents or good parents or kids having issues with their parents?
ES (01:20:42):
Yes, but kids have always had issues with their parents. You see some things now. I have had several patients who were named Che after Che Guevara, just as during the (19)60s and (19)70s, would name their kids things like Krishna and Sunflower, Willow Wisp, names that they might not use later. But I think to myself, this is interesting. I know what it is like to be given the name that one might not have chosen for himself. I was given the name of Lenin. So when I see people now that are named Krishna or Che, it kind of amuses me in a way. I do not know if there are better or worse parents. I think that those who went through these years have had experiences and have had a different sense of reality and hopefully an expanded sense of realities. Maybe they could be better parents.
SM (01:22:15):
Let me change. Just changing my tape here. Very good. I am back. Where was I here?
ES (01:22:23):
You were asking where the boomers were [inaudible]
SM (01:22:25):
Yes. I want your thoughts. You have obviously lived in the Bay Area. You have seen the Summer of Love. You have seen the protests against the Vietnam War. You saw the Free Speech Movement, for which I think is one of the most historic events ever in higher ed, because that was my career. And when you talk about freedom of speech, you got to talk the Free Speech Movement. But of course, the protests against the Vietnam War and the Love. But I would like your thoughts on, there seemed to be at that time, in this late (19)60s and early (19)70s, a more camaraderie between the movements. The Civil Rights movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, and the women's movement, and of course the environmental movement and the anti-war.
ES (01:23:17):
Yes.
SM (01:23:17):
In fact, in 1970, before they even did Earth Day, Senator Nelson and Dennis Hayes met with the anti-war people to make sure that they were not stepping on their turf. And they worked together, and they supported it a hundred percent. And the rallies, you saw signs all over the place. I do not sense that today. I sense rallies now where it is single issue. It is the issue they are involved in. Do you sense that too?
ES (01:23:46):
Yeah. In fact, you mentioned the Free Speech Movement. I am distressed by the suppression of free speech now on college campuses. If there is someone who expresses views that some students do not like, they will Mao them. They will shut them down. They will not permit them to speak. It is distressing to me. Whether it is someone from the right or the left, I think freedom of speech and of the press are the most important freedoms that we have.
SM (01:24:25):
I agree.
ES (01:24:25):
There is nothing else. Without them all the other freedoms go away.
SM (01:24:34):
Yeah. I interviewed Dr. Arthur Chickering, I do not know if you know him. He was a great professor who wrote Education and Identity, which was a required text in grad programs in higher ed. We had to read it; it was required. It was the seven vectors of development in human beings. And when I interviewed him about three or four months ago, I just asked him his final thoughts on what was going on in higher ed today. And he said the universities are now controlled again by the corporations, and he was very upset about that. That was what students were fighting for in many respects in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, is that the corporate takeover of universities, and of course research institutions are part of it. And there is good positive things there, but it seems like everything is bottom line today. That anything that threatens the bottom line you cannot have, so that includes controversial speakers. They talk about free speech, but in reality they are fearful of it for fear it could affect the bottom line. Do you feel that is what is happening in universities?
ES (01:25:45):
No, I was referring to student groups that suppress free speech.
SM (01:25:51):
Right. Well, I see that too. But you do not see universities doing it too?
ES (01:25:56):
Yes, and it is disturbing. It is like creeping fascism. It is part of this marriage of business and government. That is how fascism originated. In fact, that is the definition of fascism, really, is corporate government. And the bad things of fascism develop from that. So that when you have corporations controlling government and governmental institutions, including colleges and universities, yes, it suppresses free thought.
SM (01:26:50):
It is interesting that today the people that run the universities are the boomers too, and Generation Xers, which is the generation that followed.
ES (01:26:59):
Yes.
SM (01:26:59):
And so they experienced everything from the (19)60s. And like your thoughts, I sense there is a fear of the term activism on university's campuses. Volunteerism is a safe term. Activism is a scary term, because it is almost 24/7, and it is much more challenging, and it brings back memories of the past. Do you feel that is present?
ES (01:27:26):
Yes. It is certainly a change, and it is not a good change.
SM (01:27:38):
There is two basic questions I have been asking every interviewee. One of them is a question that was organized and put together by a group of students I took to Washington DC in 1995 to meet former Senator Edmund Muskie. They were not born at the time in 1968, but they wanted to ask him a question as the vice-presidential candidate about everything that was happening in Chicago that year. This is the question they came up with. Do you feel, Senator Muskie, that we are still having problems with healing due to the extreme divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, male and female, straight and gay, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. What role has the Wall in Washington DC played in healing of divisions for veterans? But most importantly, do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Are we wrong in thinking this, or has 35 years made the following statement true: Time heals all wounds? I will let you know what Senator Muskie said after I get your response.
ES (01:28:59):
Well, it is true that time heals. The Vietnam Wall alone could not heal the divisions that arose over the war. One thing that I did notice is that whereas the veterans of the Vietnam War, even though most were conscripts, were reviled, you do not see that now with the veterans of the Iraq War. They are volunteers. So I think that is in a way an improvement. Whether those divisions have yet, yes, time heals. It is better now than it was.
SM (01:29:51):
I think that the students had saw the assassinations of that year, (19)60, and of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King. Certainly the city's going up in fire in the (19)60s.
SM (01:30:03):
The cities going up in fire in the (19)60s, the burnings in Watts, and of course the protest movement. They had also seen the Hard Hats in New York City going, wanting to clobber the anti-war people. They had seen all of this stuff when they came to this. The Senator Muskie responded this way. He did not even respond in 1968. He basically said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." I said, " We still have the issues of race like we did back then." The students sat there, and not shocked, but just listened to them because he gave a melodramatic pause for about a minute. It looked like he had tears in his eyes, that we saw when people said he was a weak candidate because people had attacked his wife when he was a candidate. Then he went into a description about 430,000 men being killed in the Civil War. He had just seen the Ken Burns series, almost an entire generation. That is when he went at talking about the lack of healing since the Civil War. I put two and two together, because if you go to Gettysburg, if you have been there, they have this statue of the last living person who was in the Civil War. He died in 1924. I took students there. So a combination of all these things came to that question. The healing is a big issue, because there were so many divisions. But you agree that you think time does heal?
ES (01:31:48):
I think so. I was thinking what you said about Muskie said, the division since the Civil War. There was a time when, during Summer of Love, during that time, it was right after and during the civil rights demonstrations. There was a time when there were much better relations between Black and white. Then that changed with the rise of the militant groups, such as Black Panthers, which, in an attempt to give Black people pride, turned against whites. But I thought that was not a good time, and I think that persists today, to a large extent. It seemed-
SM (01:32:50):
Yes.
ES (01:32:51):
...there was more integration then, than now. Now you always read about, in colleges, Blacks always being separate from whites.
SM (01:33:08):
Right.
ES (01:33:08):
In the (19)60s, did not have that so much. There was a brief period where you did not have that.
SM (01:33:17):
In your opinion, why did the Vietnam War end?
ES (01:33:22):
Oh, I think a lot of it has to do with the student demonstrations, the general consensus that it was wrong that we were there. The numbers of people who were killed, well, Vietnamese and American.
SM (01:33:47):
How do you respond to the people, like the Newt Gingrich's of the world, or George Will, who oftentimes will write in his books, commentary on the (19)60s generation, or that period in American history, as placing the blame for the breakdown of American society based on that time. They are making reference to the drug culture, the freedom of sexuality, the lack of respect for authority, maybe even the beginning of the isms. Just the breakdown of the way it was maybe in the (19)50s. I do not know. But your thoughts? Because those critics are still out there, and they are still making comments. You can see it on the Huckabee's television show all the time. We are going to make a reference to the (19)60s generation, and a lot of the issues that we face in our society today. Problems go back at that time. The divorce rate is another one, the high divorce rate, not having a commitment to a relationship, all these things. Just your thoughts on the critics of that time and era.
ES (01:35:05):
Well, some of the criticisms are valid, but I think that, overall, good came out of that period of time. We see that in the interest in maintaining, preserving, and improving the environment, in openness to new ideas, and arts and music. Overall, I think was good. Bad things also occurred. The people who were harmed by drug abuse. The change in a reaction to marriage, where it used to be felt that one married, it was forever. My parents married for almost 60 years before my mother died. When I first came out to Berkeley, when I had some roommates and friends at a residence where I was, I surprised by the number of people who came from divorced families. Of course, that has changed more and more. Divorce, that is not a good thing. I still think that when married, you should go into it thinking you are always going to be married. Not with the idea that many people have that, "Oh, you could always get divorced if things do not work out," but that is not a good thing. I think, overall, a lot of good came out of it. And I think these critics are, yes, reactionary. They are looking backwards. They are thinking, perhaps, of a time that did not really exist except in their imagination.
SM (01:37:17):
One of the other qualities, the second question, besides healing, is the issue of trust. There were lots of reasons why boomers did not trust their leaders, because they saw President Johnson lie about the Gulf of Tonkin. We saw Richard Nixon in Watergate. There were even rumblings that President Kennedy was not above board, with respect to the overthrow of the Diem regime.
ES (01:37:42):
Right.
SM (01:37:42):
Vietnam. And certainly even if you really were up on things, Eisenhower had even lied to the American public about you too. McNamara, and all these numbers, where they were giving numbers of the dead, and it could have been a whole pasture cows, and they were including them as well. Trust, or lacking trust, is a quality that many people link to this generation. Your thoughts on how important trust is, and secondly, whether there is truth to that. Secondly, one of my professors once said to us in a Psych 101 class that people who cannot trust others will really not be a success in life, because you have got to be able to trust other people. Just your thoughts.
ES (01:38:34):
Yes. On the other hand, it is healthy, in a way, to know about these things, these incidents, in which our leaders have lied. Because I think it is good to have a healthy skepticism, especially about politicians. The old joke about how you know when a lawyer is lying, his lips are moving. Most politicians are lawyers, so you have got a double chance of lies. I see a lot of disappointment now, after Obama's election, because he ran on the slogan, Change You Can Believe In. A lot of people are bitterly disappointed to find out that he is, after all, a politician, Chicago politician, who has to act within the constraints of our system. As I said before, people have a need to follow, a need for religion, a need feel that they are following someone who can guide them. And of course, one of the popular songs, it was Beatles or John Lennon, I forget, Do not follow leaders.
SM (01:40:27):
Yeah. I was a political science major as an undergrad in history, political science. And one of the things they teach you in political science is, it is healthy for democracy to not trust.
ES (01:40:43):
Yep.
SM (01:40:43):
Because that is the sign that dissent is alive and well. And if you have dissent, that means you have free speech, you have protests, the right, all these things. That is a healthy thing, not a negative thing.
ES (01:40:56):
Yeah. That is why that slogan Question Authority was so powerful.
SM (01:41:03):
Right. When I have asked another question, too, to all the guests, and I have tried defining the boomer generation into words from slogans. There were three, and then there was four, and then there was five. But the three that I mentioned to each person, and then they respond with their own, is Malcolm X's term, By Any Means Necessary, symbolizing the more radical violent aspects of the (19)60s, and early (19)70s, when boomers were young. Then you had Bobby Kennedy's quote, which he took from a writer, which is, "Some men see things as they are, and ask, 'Why?' I see things that never were, and ask, 'Why not?'," which is an activist mentality, a questioning of authority, fight for justice when you see injustice, that kind of thing. Then the more hippie mentality, which was on many of the Peter Max posters of the era, particularly in the early (19)70s. And one of them said, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful," which was a hippie mentality. Then one other person mentioned, We Shall Overcome, which is symbolic of the Civil Rights movement. Others had mentioned Timothy Leary's Tune in, Turn on, Drop out. But are there some slogans that you feel, or do they cover the generation?
ES (01:42:35):
I think they cover it. I do not like Malcolm X's slogan, By Any Means Necessary, because it connotes violence when necessary, and I think violence should be avoided if possible. It is not always possible, but if possible, it should be avoided. I told you I did not care for... Well, I appreciated the power of Timothy Leary's. I did not appreciate the message, because if you are actually following it, dropping out of school, and just dropping out of society.
SM (01:43:21):
When you say that, when you look at the Summer of Love, that is really all about counterculture, that is really not about politics, correct?
ES (01:43:29):
I would say so, yes.
SM (01:43:31):
Yeah.
ES (01:43:31):
In fact, it was a big difference. There was some conflict between the political people and the Flower Power people. The difference even was seen in publications, such as the Berkeley Barb, where my newspaper columns first appeared. Very much interested in politics, whereas there was a publication called The Oracle, which had to do with psychedelic art and music. Yes, there was a difference there.
SM (01:44:22):
You are your books, which I have the list of your four books here, could you at least just, in a couple sentences, describe what each book is about? Dear Doctor Hippocrates, which was Grove Press in (19)69.
ES (01:44:35):
Yes. It was from newspaper columns, or questions and answers, almost all about drugs and sexuality.
SM (01:44:46):
Is that book still available, or you got a-
ES (01:44:49):
It is on online, again, through Amazon.
SM (01:44:52):
Yeah.
ES (01:44:52):
I thought they were being used company.
SM (01:44:56):
Natural Food and Unnatural Acts, Delacorte Press, 1974.
ES (01:45:00):
Yes. That was from newspaper columns and longer articles that I wrote. As I say, I always thought of that as a history of the (19)60s.
SM (01:45:12):
Yeah, that is what I need to get, for sure. The third one was, Jealousy, Taming the Green-Eyed Monster, 1980.
ES (01:45:20):
See, often people would write to me because they were exploring sexuality, freedom of sex, and they would say " I know I cannot own anyone, and I should not own anyone, but why is it that I feel jealous if I see my girlfriend or wife with someone else?" People would very frequently write to me about that, so I thought this be a good book to do, a book about jealousy.
SM (01:45:48):
Well, that is interesting. Mary Todd Lincoln should have read that book. She was suspicious of everybody that came anywhere near Abe.
ES (01:45:58):
Yeah.
SM (01:45:58):
The last one here, the Down to Earth Health Guide, in 1981.
ES (01:46:02):
Yes. I was asked by the publisher of Natural Food and Unnatural Acts to do a general health guide. At that time, there were not health guides for, actually, it started out for college students, and I expanded for others. It is a general health guide. There is a large section in there about drugs and sexuality, but it also includes other health conditions.
SM (01:46:38):
Now I am almost done here. The last part is just where I mentioned some names. So some people or terms, and you just give little brief comments.
ES (01:46:46):
All right.
SM (01:46:47):
If that is okay?
ES (01:46:48):
Sure.
SM (01:46:48):
Sometimes people decide they do not even want that, because the interview's gone a little over. It is a great interview. These are just names, terms, or personalities from the period. Just thoughts. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda.
ES (01:47:03):
Yeah, Tom Hayden. Tom Hayden, he lived in Berkeley for a time. There was a time when women's groups were coming together, and saying, "We do not need men." They published an anonymous article in the Berkeley Barb about if it had to do with dildos, something like that, and we do not need men. [inaudible] condemned the article. It was anti-women, anti-feminist. I thought he was a true believer, and it was a marriage made in heaven or hell when he married Jane Fonda. I think she is really a dimwit.
SM (01:48:07):
How about John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy?
ES (01:48:13):
Well, John Kennedy, of course, represented a new kind of president. He was young, he was vital. He projected optimism. Robert Kennedy, I had some doubts about, because of his early work with anti-communist activity. When he was killed, a lot of the aspirations of people active in politics died as well.
SM (01:48:59):
How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey?
ES (01:49:02):
LBJ was an example of how things can get done, how things have to be done, because he was very important in regard to civil rights legislation. And yet, he was an old style politician. Even Humphrey was an example of how things are not done, cannot be done. He had promised a liberal politician, but he was not as effective as LBJ, interestingly enough.
SM (01:49:53):
How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern?
ES (01:49:59):
Well, I met Eugene McCarthy one time. Again, he was someone who was not, of course he was in Congress, but he was not as effective. But he did inspire people to be active in politics, the way they had not before. The same with McGovern. McGovern was interesting. I was at Hunter Thompson's second funeral in Colorado, and McGovern was one of the people who spoke there.
SM (01:50:42):
Wow.
ES (01:50:43):
Yeah.
SM (01:50:47):
How about Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford?
ES (01:50:51):
When I was a student at Berkeley in 1953, Ronald Reagan, I was in the Cal Glee Club. We were asked to sing at a Lions Club meeting in Berkeley, and the featured speaker there was Ronald Reagan. It was the first time that I was aware of his interest in politics, and was surprised to learn of his interest in very conservative politics. I never understood why, do not understand now, why he is so revered by some Republicans. He was the guy who said, "You have seen one redwood, you have seen them all." He also was not the first actor to become elected to national office politics. Was that George Murphy?
SM (01:51:54):
Yes.
ES (01:51:55):
And before him. He unfortunately inspired other actors, get involved in politics, like our present governor.
SM (01:52:08):
Right.
ES (01:52:10):
You asked?
SM (01:52:11):
Gerald Ford.
ES (01:52:12):
Oh, Ford. Ford.
SM (01:52:18):
Ultimate question with him. When he had pardoned Nixon, did he really heal the nation? He wrote a book on it.
ES (01:52:24):
I think that was the intent, as well as maybe paying off some political favors. But I do not think it healed the nation. I think it destroyed his reputation.
SM (01:52:42):
When he ran against Jimmy Carter, I was in San Francisco. They had a big amphitheater there, and they had the big screen with a debate. I will never forget when he said, "They are not communists." I could not believe it. In Eastern Europe.
ES (01:52:56):
Oh yeah-yeah.
SM (01:52:57):
That killed him, that did it.
ES (01:53:01):
He was not very smart, either.
SM (01:53:04):
Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon.
ES (01:53:09):
Oh. Well, Chris, Eisenhower was elected because he was general in the Second World War. I think his greatest contribution was to point out of the military industrial complex.
SM (01:53:25):
Yes.
ES (01:53:26):
Sadly neglected. Every now and then someone will remember it. But very important that he mentioned that, and emphasized that, and that he recognized how important that was. I think that is his greatest contribution, and the importance of that has yet to be realized. Nixon, it was astonishing, to me, when he was elected president. We thought, "Oh, my God, that is the worst thing that could have happened." Some of the most pleasant hours I have ever spent were during the Watergate hearings, then having him resign. Found that very satisfying that finally justice was served, because as he started out as a witch hunter, communist, anti-communist, and built on that.
SM (01:54:35):
How about Spiro Agnew and Jimmy Carter?
ES (01:54:41):
Yeah-yeah. Spiro Agnew. Well, it was amusing, I forget the term that he used. He was talking about the journalist.
SM (01:54:55):
Yeah, hobnobs.
ES (01:54:59):
Finally, he got his due because of corruption.
SM (01:55:03):
Right.
ES (01:55:04):
Jimmy Carter was a weak president. There was some promise. He was interested in, for example, in decriminalizing marijuana, at least through his White House drug advisor. I had some hand in Jimmy Carter's [inaudible], in a roundabout way. I do not know if you remember the White House drug scandal, when his White House drug advisor, Peter Bourne, that is resigned in disgrace?
SM (01:55:52):
Do not remember that.
ES (01:55:53):
He had written a prescription for Quaaludes, under a false name for his secretary, or something.
SM (01:56:03):
Oh, wow.
ES (01:56:07):
When that was revealed, and Jack Anderson revealed a story that he had been pledged not to reveal unless something like this happened. What that was, was that Peter Bourne was at a conference in Washington, it was a normal conference, national organization. He could reform of marijuana law. Peter Bourne was seen by some reporters in a room there, speeding, snorting cocaine with Thompson and some other.
SM (01:56:48):
Oh.
ES (01:56:50):
These reporters, they promised not to reveal this. They told Anderson about it. They promised not to reveal it unless something else happened. Something else happened when Peter Bourne wrote this fake prescription, and that was revealed. Then Jack Anderson revealed the cocaine snorting incident, and that did not help Jimmy Carter.
SM (01:57:28):
How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the Yippies?
ES (01:57:32):
Yeah. Well, I knew both Jerry and Abbie. Abbie, I thought, always had a great sense of humor. But I was there when they were planning the Chicago demonstration. I was at the meeting, and they asked me to provide medical assistance at the Chicago convention meeting.
SM (01:57:58):
Oh, wow.
ES (01:58:01):
When they told me what they planned, I said, "You know, people could get killed if you do that." And Abbie said, "Well, what is a few lives lost there, compared with thousands of lives in Vietnam?" Well, I did not think that one could predict things like that, and I thought it was wrong, and I withdrew from being involved in the Chicago demonstration. But overall, I thought, and there was some brilliance in the Yippie tactics, throwing the money, the dollar bills, and the stock exchange, and some of their other stunts. Jerry Rubin, less so. Especially later, became a stockbroker.
SM (01:58:54):
Right.
ES (01:58:54):
Interested in that. They were killed, hit by a car, and some of us made wry jokes about he was killed because he saw a reporter on the other side of Wilshire Boulevard, right across the street.
SM (01:59:17):
Yeah. Well, I have heard he was killed because he was jaywalking, and he was against the law all the time, so he got killed because he was doing something against the law. Chicago eight. The next one is Chicago eight, which is the trial, the eight people. That was a big thing, with Bobby Seale, and Tom Hayden, and certainly Rennie Davis, Rubin, Hoffman, Dave Dellinger, Lee Weiner, and I am missing one person, but just your thoughts on that? That was a...
ES (01:59:53):
Yeah, that was a travesty. But again, as I just mentioned, I was supposed to have been involved in providing medical-
ES (02:00:03):
...supposed to have been involved in providing medical coverage for a Chicago demonstration. So, I did not have too much sympathy with those people because they were deliberately trying to start a riot. They did. There is no doubt in my mind. I know that that is what they intended to do because they told me.
SM (02:00:24):
How about the women leaders, the Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug the women's movement, because they were at the forefront?
ES (02:00:32):
Yeah. I am afraid that all set setback progress for a couple of generations. They misled women on their relationships with men. It led to a lot of saying, what was it, slogan, women need men like fish need bicycles. I think that still influences a lot of women. I mean, the good part, of course was in pointing out discrepancies in wages and political power. That part was good. It was good and bad.
SM (02:01:23):
How about the Black Panthers? There was seven of them because there is Stokely Carmichael, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Dave Hilliard and then the one that was killed in Chicago. I forget his name. Norman, I think, Fred Norman.
ES (02:01:44):
Well, not all of them were thugs and gangsters, but I think most of them were.
SM (02:01:49):
Yeah. That gets to this question about, Stokely challenged Martin Luther King in person, saying his time had passed. Malcolm X had actually debated Bayard Rustin, telling him that his time had passed, which was nonviolent protest.
ES (02:02:06):
Yeah. That set back relations between blacks and whites and that exists till today.
SM (02:02:13):
Yeah. Well, what are your thoughts on Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr.?
ES (02:02:22):
Well, of course Martin Luther King Jr. was a great orator and peacemaker. Was of course, if not the greatest black leader, one of the greatest. I do not know as much. You asked about Stokely Carmichael?
SM (02:02:45):
Yeah. Stokely was the one challenged Dr. King.
ES (02:02:51):
Yeah.
SM (02:02:52):
He was down south in the early years, the Freedom Summer. So, he was doing good things. It is like what happens with the Weathermen and the SDS. I just saw Bobby Seale speak at the Kent State Conference. He kept saying, "We were never for violence." He kept saying that over and over and over again. Police just looked at the Black Panthers as a threat. They threatened him so much that they decided they had to get guns to protect themselves.
ES (02:03:26):
You know the Black Panthers, when they made a show of appearing at the state capitol in Sacramento, with rifles.
SM (02:03:38):
Right.
ES (02:03:42):
Yes, of course it was outrageous that there was discrimination against blacks, including blatant segregation, as I mentioned when I was younger. But the result of encouraging violence and hatred is what we have today. We do not have as much integration now as we did for a period of time during that Civil Rights era.
SM (02:04:21):
Couple other names here and then we are done, Dr. Benjamin Spock and the Berrigan Brothers.
ES (02:04:31):
Well, Dr. Spock influenced a whole generation. I was fortunate enough to meet him one time. I guess we were speakers on the same stage once in Berkeley. He was very warm, intelligent. He had a lot of good ideas. I think some of his child-raising ideas were misinterpreted, but I thought he was great influence on a whole generation of people and a good influence. Who is the other?
SM (02:05:11):
Phillip and Daniel Berrigan. They were part of the Catonsville 9 where they burned the draft records.
ES (02:05:19):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, they were very influential because they were church leaders who encouraged activism. To the extent that they influenced people of their own faith and other faiths, especially about the Vietnam War, they are very important. They show that it is worth sacrifice to do some things, the sacrifice of being liable to being arrested and jailed. They were not violent.
SM (02:06:08):
Yeah. The SDS, Students for Democratic Society and the Weathermen.
ES (02:06:14):
Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, there are people who are most influenced by big thing, explosion, boom-boom. The Weathermen, of course they blew themselves up sometimes, but I thought that that was wrong. Thought it was wrong to encourage violence at that time, at that time and for those reasons. I thought there were other means that were useful to ending the war. I mean, after all, that is why they started their group. Using violence to end violence, it's like using racism to end racism.
SM (02:07:13):
How about Muhammad Ali and Jackie Robinson, two of the predominant African American athletes who-
ES (02:07:20):
Well, Muhammad Ali was a very bright man. He was very funny. His decision not to be drafted I think was very important and influenced a lot of people. At the time he did that, he changed his name from Cassius Clay to Muhammad Ali, I mean that was important. I never can remember his though, advocating killing infidels or some of the things that you see now from Islamic extremists. I think he was very influential and a good role model at the time, I mean, even before he avoided the draft way he did because he was such a wonderful athlete. So, very smart, clever and funny. Who was the other?
SM (02:08:38):
The other was Jackie Robinson.
ES (02:08:42):
Yeah. Again, of course he was a pioneer in baseball. He always seemed to comport himself in an ethical manner. Was not like some of the athletes we see today, of all races, drugs and gangsters, acting badly. He always seemed to act in a good way. He was very important. Actually, I was interested in baseball because of the various baseball background in my own family.
SM (02:09:23):
I want to mention a book that I think you ought to go out and read. I am reading it right now. It is a brand-new book on Henry Aaron.
ES (02:09:29):
Yes.
SM (02:09:30):
It is called Henry Aaron. It is written by a person on ESPN. I have got several books. In the first 50 pages, the influence that Jackie Robinson had on Henry Aaron, the young guy from Mobile, Alabama is just unbelievable. Jackie talked about getting an education, not relying on your athletic ability. Raise as much as you, can be educated. Yet Hank was the extreme opposite in his attitudes. It is the best book I have ever written on Henry Aaron. I think as a person who is a psychologist or psychiatrist who works with people, I am learning a lot about human beings from this book. I am respecting Hank Aaron even more now that I am reading about his life. Because he has been kind of a recluse, even though he was high up in the Braves organization, but he was not out there making a name for himself. He did not believe in that. He liked being just, put the product out there. Just a couple more names and then we are done. The Vietnam Veterans Against the War and Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers.
ES (02:10:48):
Well, I saw the Vietnam Veterans Against the War activists. It was in Miami Beach in 1972. They had the Republican Convention there at that time. As you know, I had grown up in Miami Beach. They were amongst the demonstrators there. I was astounded. I saw something I thought I would never, ever see in my life, tear gas, tear gas floating across the visage of a full moon in Miami Beach. I thought I would never see tear gas in Miami Beach. It was during that time.
SM (02:11:34):
Right.
ES (02:11:35):
I think Ron Kovic, that he was there.
SM (02:11:41):
So was Bobby Muller, I think.
ES (02:11:43):
Yeah.
SM (02:11:44):
Yep.
ES (02:11:44):
Yeah. They were very important also in helping to end the Vietnam War and publicizing the atrocities that occurred.
SM (02:11:55):
Mm-hmm. Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers?
ES (02:12:02):
That was also important. He demonstrated how a brave person could help to change things by exposing lies. I think he was important at that time. He surfaces every now and then, now, for other issues, but that was his greatest moment. The associate, what was his name? It started with an R, Russo, I think had some mental problems.
SM (02:12:49):
I cannot end this without at least having a couple conservatives here, Barry Goldwater and William Buckley. Your thoughts on those two? Because they are major figures in the lives of Boomers.
ES (02:13:03):
Yeah. It is funny that Goldberg used to be reviled as this terrible conservative. What did he say? That extremism, forget how he put it, in defense of liberty, is no vice, something like that. He is a very important figure. I think he is regarded in a better light now than he was then, even by liberals.
SM (02:13:32):
William Buckley?
ES (02:13:34):
Buckley, I met him one time. I was recording something in a studio in New York City, taking too much time. He was impatiently waiting. I did meet him then. He was a very interesting person. He was one of the first national figures, particularly conservatives who advocated the liberalization of laws regarding marijuana. That was very important for the people in the marijuana decriminalization movement. I thought he was a brilliant man. Even though often I would disagree with his political views, at least there were reasons and he was very articulate and clever.
SM (02:14:38):
How about My Lai and Tet, how important they were?
ES (02:14:44):
That was very important, very important in finally putting an end to the war. It did confirm the fact that there were atrocities going on. It is still significant today. I think it has certainly had an effect, even in the wars that are being conducted now, that there is more caution being used in the treatment of civilians. I know that there were incidents in Iraq involving civilians, but I am convinced that that more caution is being used now in Afghanistan and Iraq because of My Lai.
SM (02:15:36):
Mm-hmm.
ES (02:15:37):
Yeah.
SM (02:15:43):
Tet?
ES (02:15:46):
Again, it was something else that helped eventually put an end to the Vietnam War. It showed that we were not just up against a group of ill- equipped, low-trained savages. It was very important.
SM (02:16:06):
My last two names are Robert McNamara and John Dean.
ES (02:16:14):
Well, McNamara, finally he admitted he was wrong, I think, but many years too late, 30, 40. He was certainly an architect of that terrible experience in Vietnam. John Dean? Yeah. Well, I think he benefited from end of Nixon because he helped, contributed it to it. But he, I do not know, seemed bigger.
SM (02:16:51):
He lives out in your neck of the woods someplace.
ES (02:17:03):
I guess so. I have not heard his name recently. Every now and then he will turn up in the news.
SM (02:17:09):
The year 1968, what do you think that year meant to America?
ES (02:17:17):
1968. Yeah. We were still in the Vietnam War, a lot of turmoil.
SM (02:17:32):
Two assassinations.
ES (02:17:35):
Pardon?
SM (02:17:37):
Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were killed. That was the year of Tet. That was the year Johnson withdrew to be president, the Chicago convention. Then of course, we had the astronauts going to the moon at the end of the year. That was a positive.
ES (02:17:54):
Mm-hmm. A lot of turmoil, a lot going on, a lot of talk about revolution, but I never believed that that was going to happen.
SM (02:18:12):
The last one here is the television of the (19)50s, the black and white TV. What's your thought of black and white television of the (19)50s? When I think of it, I think of Walt Disney and Howdy Doody and Hopalong Cassidy and all these westerns, where Indians are always the bad guy. Very few people of color, except for Nat King Cole in the mid-(19)50s and Amos 'n' Andy, which was slapstick in the early (19)50s.
ES (02:18:42):
Yep. Milton Berle.
SM (02:18:43):
Yeah. Well, (19)40s and (19)50s a television, how did they shape the Boomers?
ES (02:18:55):
Well, it did because it captures... even then, just black and white television captures one's attention. So, whatever was on was influencing those people, kids at the time. They were pre-conventional values. It was not a lot of innovation or questioning about values, moral or political or artistic or musical during that time. It was a time of convention.
SM (02:19:43):
Symbolize again, do you think the time of symbolic innocence, but at the same time, there was still racism in the south and Martin Luther King and the Montgomery Bus... There were things going on that a lot of white kids did not know about.
ES (02:20:01):
Yep, that is right.
SM (02:20:03):
I am not sure if their parents were doing much to tell them about it either.
ES (02:20:07):
No, it depends on who they were. I mean, of course my parents were different because they had a liberal point of view. So, I knew about all those things.
SM (02:20:21):
Yeah, I did too. Final question and that is, when the lasting legacy of the Boomer generation is written up in the history books after the last Boomer has passed away, ala the Civil War person, what do you think historians and sociologists and writers will be saying about the generation that grew up after World War II? Keeping in mind also that they are only 63 now, so they have still got another 20 years to still have an impact on society in different directions. But your thoughts on what they might be saying about that period, in particular the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s?
ES (02:21:07):
It was a time of great change in the United States in many areas. Any area that you can think of, it was a time of turmoil and change, progress, some regression.
SM (02:21:26):
Is there any questions that... I have asked you a million questions, that I did not ask, that you thought I was going to ask you?
ES (02:21:34):
No, not that I can think of. You have asked a lot of questions.
SM (02:21:37):
Well, I guess that is it. I want to thank you for... My tally, you spent two hours and 20 minutes with me. I really appreciate it. I want to let you know that I am going to need a couple pictures of you. You can mail them to me or send it to me through the computer or whatever, sometime during the summer. I will mail you my mailing address. T. Here is a possibility that I am coming out to San Francisco to visit friends in late August, early September. I have interviewed probably 15 to 18 people from the Bay Area. They all are aware that if I do come out, I may look them up to take their picture too.
ES (02:22:20):
Sure.
SM (02:22:22):
I have Chrissy Keefer, David Lance Goines from the Free Speech Movement over in Berkeley. Well, there is several others. I got a whole list here of people. So again, thank you very much.
ES (02:22:38):
Oh, you are welcome. I had a question. What are your plans for this book?
SM (02:22:44):
I am doing all my interviews. My interviews were supposed to end at the end of May, but now I am extending it through Labor Day. After Labor Day weekend, I am then transcribing them all together over a two-month period, to transcribe them all. Then you will get a copy of your transcript, to peruse through it, edit it and so forth. Then, it will be printed hopefully next year. I got one university press very interested. University presses are interested. I have not done anything with respect to major presses, but I am meeting with two professors at my parents' former college, in actually the next couple weeks, to strategize on the best book company to get for this.
ES (02:23:34):
Okay.
SM (02:23:34):
You are the 156th interview.
ES (02:23:39):
Wow.
SM (02:23:39):
Each interview has gone in depth. The early interviews, with Senator McCarthy and Gaylord Nelson, they were like 90 minutes. Sometimes they were interrupted. They were mainly talking about Vietnam. Originally, the book was going to be about Vietnam Veterans, those activists who were against the war and historians who have written about this period. But now I have interviewed so many, and since I retired early to write the book, I am spending all my time now on this and it is expanded into seven different sections. The sections include a section on activists, a section for historians, a section for Vietnam Veterans, a section for authors. I got a lot of different categories here, a section for entertainers. I am going to interview Buffy St. Marie, but she has been having some deaths in the family and she goes on world tours. So, I have been almost waiting 10 months for that. Actually, tomorrow I am driving down to Virginia, Alexandria to interviewed State Senator Toddy Puller, who was the wife of Louis Puller Jr., who wrote the Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Fortunate Son. He was the inspiration for the book because I took a group of students down to the Vietnam Memorial in 1993, in November, two days before the Women's Memorial was dedicated. He spent two and a half hours with six of our students at a bench in front of the Vietnam Memorial, talking about healing. Then, he committed suicide in May the following year.
ES (02:25:27):
Wow.
SM (02:25:30):
I had mentioned to Lewis that I wanted to write this book. I had thought about this. He wrote in a first edition copy of the book, "You must do what you are planning on doing to educate the public." See, what I want to do, Dr. Schoenfeld, more than any other process here, is I want this book to be used in high schools and colleges and plus be available for the general public. I am very saddened that so few of our students know our history. It really upsets me. I interviewed Mark Rudd from SDS. I saw him at Kent State last week. We talked in depth about it. I interviewed him. He has got a book out called Underground, which I think is great. He admits the violence was a big, big mistake. He admits it, but you notice that Bernadine Dohrn does not.
ES (02:26:27):
Nope.
SM (02:26:29):
I had issues with her. She was at the conference, so I just basically took a picture of her. But at least Mark has the guts to say that what he did was wrong and it ruined the entire SDS.
ES (02:26:41):
Yep.
SM (02:26:43):
I just want to do something that will educate people, from the people who experienced it, that have written about it. So, it is a work in progress, but I am devoting my life to it.
ES (02:26:56):
Yeah. Sounds like.
SM (02:26:58):
Because I care deeply about my generation and I care about the true stories of the people that I am interviewing. Certainly, Paul Krassner, what a great man he is.
ES (02:27:08):
Yep. Yep.
SM (02:27:09):
Rex Weiner, I do not know if you know Rex.
ES (02:27:12):
No.
SM (02:27:13):
Well, Rex Weiner was a writer. Rex said, "You got to get ahold of Paul Krassner." So through Rex, I got ahold of Paul Krassner. And then through Paul, Paul gave me a whole lot of names. I think only two people of all the names that he gave me have not responded. One of them is Carolyn, what is her... Oh, golly.
ES (02:27:38):
Garcia?
SM (02:27:39):
Yes, Carolyn Garcia. She has not responded. So obviously a couple of people said they are surprised by that, but maybe there is something to do with the fact that she was linked up with two people at one time. Maybe it is private. So, I did not pursue that any further. Then the other one was the Whole Earth Catalog person.
ES (02:28:01):
Yeah, Stewart Brand.
SM (02:28:02):
Yeah. He said he is going to pass at this time. He said, good project and everything, but he is going to pass. Everybody else, I have been interviewing. I have got many other interviews. I am going up to take care of my sister's house. I have three interviews, with really three great scholars coming up next week. Maurice Isserman, who wrote a book on the (19)60s, he is a distinguished professor at Hamilton College. I got another professor at Ithaca College and one at Syracuse. So, I am making a lot of different contacts.
ES (02:28:41):
Oh, good. There are some photos of me on my website.
SM (02:28:46):
Okay. What is your website?
ES (02:28:52):
EugeneSchoenfeld.com.
SM (02:28:52):
Okay.
ES (02:28:52):
Okay? There is a lot of biographical information there.
SM (02:28:58):
Great.
ES (02:28:59):
Information about what I am doing now.
SM (02:29:02):
Yeah. I think some of the people, when I did the interviews way back... I started this in (19)96, but I was a full-time employee at a university and I did not have any time to really work very hard on this. Then, I had parents who became ill. So, that kind of shot down two or three years. But now devoting full time to this, I am kind of a walking encyclopedia. I am learning. I have learned a lot from you today. I want to apologize for not getting the right number sent to you, so it is my fault.
ES (02:29:41):
It is all right. All right. Well, give me a call when you are out here, if you want to.
SM (02:29:44):
Oh, yeah, will do. You take care and you have a great day.
ES (02:29:47):
All right. All right. You too. Bye-bye.
SM (02:29:48):
Bye.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld
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Schoenfeld, Eugene, 1935- ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Psychiatrists; Authors, American--20th century; Schoenfeld, Eugene, 1935--Interviews
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Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld is a psychiatrist, author, lecturer and was a popular underground newspaper columnist. His column "Dr. Hip" was published in many newspapers including the <em>Chicago Sun-Times</em>, <em>Tampa Times</em>, <em>San Francisco Chronicle</em>, and the <em>San Francisco Examiner</em>. Schoenfeld's books include <em>Dear Dr. HipPocrates</em>, <em>Natural Food and Unnatural Acts</em>, <em>Jealousy: Taming the Green-Eyed Monster</em>, and <em>Dr. Hip's Down-To-Earth Health Guide</em>.
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ND
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English
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.154a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.154b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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149:55
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/82df6d5503cc009d7696869cc9d7e3a0.jpg
69f9eb241e79cea4e35206e98850934a
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f8e82e93b379a361067a85cf0948ee5.mp3
6516a06e77e4277a50ad924973491dbd
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-05-26
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Maurice Isserman
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Maurice Isserman, born in Hartford, Connecticut, is a professor at Hamilton College and an accomplished author. He got his Bachelor of Arts in History from Reed College and his Master of Arts in American History and his Ph.D. from the University of Rochester. Dr. Isserman specializes in modern U.S. History, American radical movements, and global exploration and mountaineering."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Maurice Isserman, born in Hartford, Connecticut, is a professor at Hamilton College and an accomplished author. He received his Bachelor's in History from Reed College and his Master's degree in American History and his Ph.D. from the University of Rochester. Dr. Isserman specializes in modern U.S. History, American radical movements, and global exploration and mountaineering.<br /></span>
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Beat writers; Activism; Volunteerism; Kent State; Jackson State; Woodstock; Counterculture; Hippies; Yippies; Weathermen; Beat generation; Sexuality; Women's Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5041,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Beat writers; Activism; Volunteerism; Kent State; Jackson State; Woodstock; Counterculture; Sputnik; Beatnik; Hippies; Yippies; Weathermen; Weather Underground; Beat generation; Sexuality; Women's Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; Participatory democracy; Nat King Cole; Bob Dylan; Aretha Franklin.</span>
Duration
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145:25
Subject LCSH
College teachers; Hamilton College (Clinton, N.Y.); Radicalism--United States; Isserman, Maurice--Interviews
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Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Maurice Isserman
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 26 May 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:06):
Testing one, two, testing. I will be checking this.
(00:00:13):
Could you tell us a little bit about your background? I have read about it in the web and everything, and what fascinates me is several things that I would like you to comment on. You had an Uncle Abraham who took you to the 1967 protest at the Pentagon, that was when they levitated.
MI (00:00:34):
Right.
SM (00:00:34):
I would like you to mention that experience and how important he was. And secondly, your college experiences when you were out in Portland. You were joining the Students for Democratic Society and becoming involved with the Portland experience.
MI (00:00:50):
Right. Well, I was born in 1951, so I am smack dab in the middle of the Baby Boom. And grew up in a small town in Connecticut, which was really not on the cultural or political cutting edge of the era. But I came from a family that was marked by, not one, but two dissenting traditions. One was on my father's side, well, he was Jewish. But in the case of my uncle and to an extent my father as well, influenced by participating in the Communist Party in the 1930s and thereafter. My father was not a communist, but he certainly was sympathetic. And on my mother's side, a Quaker background, she was the daughter of, and the sister of Quaker ministers. People are sometimes surprised to hear the Quakers have ministers, and in the East they tended not to, but in the Midwest, they do. So both of those traditions, I think were influences even before the 1960s, sort of picked me up and threw me in front of the on-rushing train of history. So in the summer of 1967, I was on an American Friends Service Committee work project in Indianapolis, which is where my uncle was a Quaker minister at the time. Bonnie Raitt was on that work project. She was not yet Bonnie Raitt, she was just a high school kid who played guitar. We sang a lot of folks songs that summer. That was high school kids doing good works kind of project, but it was also in that context, it was a lot more because it was the summer of Sergeant Pepper and we were these long- haired kids coming into conservative Indianapolis and getting involved in anti-war protests there, such as it was. I remember we had Vigil Hiroshima Day and reading and talking and thinking about stuff. On the project, that is why I read Michael Harrington's "The Other America" for the first time, and the "Autobiography of Malcolm X." So that was one influence. Then going into that fall, I had been in my first anti-war protest the previous spring in New York City, the spring mobilization, which knocked my socks off to be coming from a little town in Connecticut, to be suddenly marching with 300,000 people down to the United Nations from the Central Park and hearing Martin Luther King speak.
SM (00:03:51):
Wow.
MI (00:03:51):
I am getting my chronology all jumbled here.
SM (00:03:54):
But still those are-
MI (00:03:55):
So there was the spring mobilization, then there was the Summer of Love, which I happened to spend in Indianapolis with the AFSC. Then in the fall I went down to the Pentagon with Uncle Abe. My parents were not entirely on board with this going off to anti-war protests. But somehow because my uncle was taking me, it was... When I say my parents, in that case, my mother and stepfather. So with Abe escorting me, we marched from Washington to the side of the Pentagon. And of course what happened at the Pentagon was not part of the program, which was that there was somehow a line where the MPs were not strong or were not there at all. Somebody tore down a cyclone fence and suddenly 5,000 of us tore up the hillside, were right next to the Pentagon building. Abe, I did not come all the way up to the Pentagon with him, I kind of waved goodbye to him. I was there for several hours. And finally the MPs were picking off small groups of protestors. Actually I think it was federal marshals in this case. The MPs were just standing in a line. I was gassed and thrown down the embankment, then I walked back across the Arlington Bridge to Washington and to the hotel where my uncle was staying. I wrote an article about it, which you may have seen for the Chronicle, and said that all in all, it had been the best day of my life.
SM (00:05:33):
Was that your awakening, you were awakened by other things, but the true awakening, was that it?
MI (00:05:40):
Well, I am not sure. That seems a little melodramatic, but I was certainly awakening for several years there in the mid-(19)60s. Already by 1965, (19)66, I was flipping The Times religiously of articles about Vietnam. I remember Harrison Salisbury reports from Hanoi, which established for American readers for the first time, the fact that it was very heavy bombing of civilian neighborhoods going on in Hanoi and other North Vietnamese cities. I would cut out these articles and put them up on my bedroom wall. So even before I was in the streets, I was increasingly aware of what was going on in Vietnam. Before that, the Civil Rights movement, which I had no direct participation in, but was sympathetic to. I mean, I remember watching in 1963, the March on Washington was broadcast live, and I watched King give his speech. We would get Life Magazine every week and there were these pictures of Sheriff Price and the other officers in Philadelphia, Mississippi who had kidnapped Schwerner, Cheney, Goodman. They were sitting at their trial, big fat stereotypical southern sheriffs, laughing and chewing tobacco. I knew which side I was on that one. Then it being the (19)60s, listening to the Beatles and all that was going into the mix. So by 1967, awakening, yes, I was certainly awakened, although I do not think any single event is key. I was also working at my teenage identity and establishing independence issues, going into New York or going down to Washington on my own was a way of showing my parents that I could take care of myself. In 1968, I graduated from high school in June, I am not sure the exact dates, but June 14th, let us say. That night got on a train to go down to Washington for Solidarity Day. King had been assassinated in the spring. The SCLC was calling for people to come down in solidarity with the Poor People's Movement, Resurrection City, the shanties built around the reflecting pool on the mall. So I told my parents I wanted to go down, support this, and they thought, okay, big public March in favor of poor people. What was so bad about that? So I took the train down overnight and took part in the demonstration and then wound up hanging out with the Resurrection City people for the next week, which had not been part of my parents' plan at all. I had some friends in Washington, so I stayed with them. So every day there were marches, I remember Jesse Jackson leading a march to the Department of Agriculture so I was going along. Of course, I was sort of an imposter. I was not a poor person, but in solidarity. Then the announcement was made the next day, a week after I had arrived that the feds were going to close down Resurrection City, that they had had enough of this festering mess in the middle of the Capitol.
SM (00:09:28):
Because it was raining too, was not it?
MI (00:09:29):
It was raining, it was muddy and so forth. So I called up my parents and I said, "I am going to go get arrested tomorrow." And they said, "No, you are not, you are coming home." I said, "No, this is what I got to do." First time I ever hung up on my parents. So I went down to spend the last night at Resurrection City. I went to the main gate and they said, "Well, have you been staying here are you a registered poor person protestor?" And I said, " No, just a supporter." They said, "Well, you cannot come in." So I had my knapsack and I walked down the fence and I propped myself under a tree preparing to spend the night there. It was Washington in June at this point. Somebody looked over the fence and said, "Hey kid, what are you doing?" I said, "Well, I wanted to get in, but they would not let me in." They said, "Oh, here." So they took me through a gap in the fence or something, and they took me to their little shanty. It turned out this was a Blackstone Ranger, which was a notorious Chicago Street gang, which I probably read about it in one of the books for the AFSC, except they were enlisted in the cause of the Poor People's March. So I spent the last night of Resurrection City in a shanty with a bunch of Blackstone Rangers, which is not the kind of company that most suburban kids from Connecticut actually might spend any time with.
SM (00:10:57):
Oh, no.
MI (00:10:58):
They were very pleasant. The next morning we all had breakfast and marched off to the Capitol and demonstrated on the Capitol grounds and were arrested, because it was illegal to demonstrate on the Capitol grounds, and was sentenced to seven days in jail, sent off to a minimum-security prison in Virginia. It was great. It was like an all-day-long political seminar, sitting out on the grass talking with Civil Rights veterans, singing freedom songs with this whole stock of freedom songs. Was talking about nonviolence versus violence and all kinds of issues [inaudible] the movement at the time, eating better than we did when I went off to college the next September, food in prison was much better. So I thought it was this great experience. When I came back and my parents lionized me because I made this heroic sacrifice on behalf of the poor, which they had forbidden me to do, but they knew I survived it.
SM (00:11:59):
How long were you in jail?
MI (00:12:00):
Seven days. But it was like this great adventure. What was I? Summer of 1968, I was 17 years old, turned 17 in March. Then I went off to college in the fall of (19)68. So of all times to go off to college. I had gone to England that summer for a month, which was my reward for graduating school, with a friend and his family, and hooked up with the British Left. So I met Tariq Ali, who-
SM (00:12:35):
Oh yeah, he has written several. I got a couple of his books.
MI (00:12:39):
Led the demonstrations against the American Embassy of Grosvenor Square, which took place in the previous spring when I was not there. Traveled around London, went to several demonstrations I guess about the war. But then while I was there, the Soviet Union invaded, or the Warsaw Pact invaded Czechoslovakia. The British New Left, as well as a lot of Czech students who were studying in London, were of course outraged. And so there were three nights of demonstrations in the London streets marching on the Soviet Embassy and the Czech students waving the Czech flags. So when I hear charges that the New Left was pro-Soviet, [inaudible] demonstrations, which was clearly anti-imperialist, whether imperialism was our own or the Soviet version. I also was impressed by the London bobbies, and this was a pretty anarchistic crew that was turning out. This was the summer of (19)68. It was after the May (19)68 riots. So people were pretty in the streets and they were not throwing things, but they were truly not obeying the traffic laws. The London bobbies would remove people, but do it quite gently without guns and billy clubs, so it was a model of good crowd control.
SM (00:14:18):
Did you happen to see at the Pentagon in (19)67, the guy that burned himself to death? Were you aware that there was a man there that did it and he did it with McNamara looking out the window?
MI (00:14:29):
Yeah, but that was earlier. That was Norman. What was his name?
SM (00:14:34):
Was that another protest?
MI (00:14:35):
Yeah, he did that as an individual protest and that was a 1965.
SM (00:14:40):
Okay. Yeah.
MI (00:14:41):
Norman Morrison. I was certainly aware that that had happened, but it was on a different occasion.
SM (00:14:49):
Right. You have written some unbelievable books, of course, the one in the (19)60s, but what did you learn from all of your research on the war between the New Left of the (19)60s and the (19)70s?
MI (00:15:10):
Okay. Well, in "America Divided," and when I lecture to students about the era, I make a number of points. One is that although it seemed like all the thunder was on the left in the 1960s, we remember the decade in terms of a series of iconic images connected to Civil Rights protests, anti-war protests, counterculture. The decade also has to be seen as the seed time of a conservative revival that would dominate American politics for the remainder of the 20th and be certainly the beginning of the 21st century, starting with the Goldwater campaign in 1964 and the George Wallace insurgency within the Democratic Party, the rise of a right-wing populist reaction to particularly the Civil Rights, but also to counterculture and the anti-war protests. It was not something that was apparent to me at the time, but looking back, it was obvious that as significant, if not more significant than the left-wing story of the (19)60s is the right-wing story of the 1960s. Ever since, the (19)60s have been a touchpoint, as you suggest, for conservatives who are nostalgic for what they imagine to be the stability and order and morality of the patriotism of pre-1960 America, which I think is a construct. It is a Golden Age, and it is a myth, but it is a powerful argument. I mean, in fact, the 1950s were certainly not a Golden Age if you were Black in America. If you had not had the insurgencies in the 1960s, you would still be having Jim Crow society. So you cannot simply look back and say, "Oh, it was all terrible." But the problem with that right-wing argument is that the forces for the dissolution of the family, or for new family structures to emerge were already coming into place in the 1950s. Moreover, they were not restricted to the United States. If you look at single parent families and so on and so forth, any kind of social parameter you want to use, this is something that is across the industrial democratic West, and even to Eastern Europe as well, which did not have a (19)60s. But these are changes that are somehow connected to, and we do not yet have, not far enough away from it to have a satisfactory historical explanation, but something with modernity, something with what has been happening in industrial and post-industrial society, certainly the decline in the birth rate. The Baby Boom itself is an aberration. That temporary expansion of marriage rates, lowering of the age of marriage, increase in the number of children per family, and so on and so forth, which we now take as the norm is an aberration from well over a century of just the opposite, that women were getting married at older ages, having fewer children and so forth, stretching back into the 19th century. Then for particular historical reasons in certain places, United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, you see this Baby Boom phenomenon. Again, it is illusory to see that as somehow being the norm. So powerful cultural forces were coming along and were going to change the family. One of the most important reasons why the family has changed is because of the decline in real wages for industrial workers. When you had a secure, stable, industrial base in this country where a male breadwinner could support a family, then you could have women stay at home and be primary childcare providers and cook a hot meal every night that the whole family sat down to eat. Once that is removed starting in the late 1960s and for the last four decades, you see a decline in real wages means women go out to work. If women go out to work, it means that first of all, they have more financial independence so they can contemplate getting a divorce if they are in an unsatisfactory marriage. It also means you are not going to have the Betty Crocker kind of housewives that you had in the 1950s. Families are going to not eat together. They are going to eat more fast food. I mean, the obesity epidemic is probably a byproduct of this. So it is a really complex mix that has something to do with the cultural insurgencies and the counterculture, the 1960s. But only something. I was just reading a piece in the New York Times the other day that pointed out that teenage birth rates, a single parent, unmarried teenage women having babies are much higher in the red states than they are in the blue states. That has something to do with the availability of abortion. There might be more pregnancies in the blue states, but they are not being carried to term. But it has also something to do with the availability of contraception. All you have to do is look at Sarah Palin's daughter, who's now going around as an advocate of teen abstinence.
SM (00:21:34):
She did not do it.
MI (00:21:35):
Well, not really a role model for that. So it is not simply decadent places like Berkeley and Cambridge and New York City where cultural patterns have changed. It is precisely in places where you still have, at least this kind of strong norm for church, family, patriarchal authority, where in fact, the family structure breakdown is most evident, at least as measured by teen pregnancies. So it is a bogus argument.
SM (00:22:13):
It is interesting too; the Boomers for years have said that we are the largest generation in American history. We are not anymore. There are more Millennials now than there ever were Boomers. There is a brand-new book on, I was perusing through it, and it states that it is very difficult to state the exact number of Boomers, anywhere from 74 to 78, but they do know that there are close to 80 to 81 million Millennials now. So to say that Boomers are the large generation of American history isn't true.
MI (00:22:51):
Well, that might have something to do with immigration.
SM (00:22:53):
Yes, you are probably right there too. Obviously, I have interviewed a lot of people and a lot of them give their reasons, but I put down six here, but I would like your thoughts on these. What event in your eyes was the number one reason with respect to why the Vietnam War ended? And here is the six that I am listing. Tet. Number two, Kent State and Jackson State in 1970. Tet was in (19)68. Number three, when middle America, like Ohio, their sons were coming home in body banks. Number four, funding was cut off by Congress. Number five, student protests on college campuses, major effect. And number six, the wrong military strategy.
MI (00:23:40):
Number one, in a broader sense, which is to say that the war was never winnable. I mean, you could annihilate all Vietnamese, you could drop atomic bombs, but you could never build a stable South Vietnamese government there. The material simply was not there to do it. If you did not win politically, did not matter what you did militarily. The Vietnamese were not going anywhere, it was their country. They knew, just like the Americans knew in 1776, that eventually the British would get tired and go home, which was also the Confederate strategy in 1861, except in that case, the North was closer to the South. They were neighbors. But we were not neighbors to Vietnam, so we were never going to win. You could stretch it out, you could increase the number of amount of bloodshed, but at some point, there was going to become a breaking point. Tet was the symbolic breaking point, because thereafter, American people as a whole decided that it simply was not worth fighting in Vietnam. The only way you could fight in Vietnam, as Richard Nixon discovered, was by saying, we were fighting to get out as to say of this Vietnamization program, in fighting for peace with honor, we want to get back our POWs, which was a sort of self-reinforcing rationale for the war, because the longer you fought, the more POWs there were to get back. But in the end, that too was going to run out as a rationale for the war. American people after 1968 simply did not believe the game was worth the candle. Nixon and Kissinger understood that too. This is not a secret. They have this new revisionist history about how we were really winning after 1969. Well, that would have been news to Nixon and Kissinger, who on a number of occasions in the secret White House tapes said, "We cannot win this. We know we cannot win this. We are stretching it out. We want to pass it on. We want the collapse to come after we are out of office. We want a decent interval between the final withdrawal of American troops and the collapse of the Saigon regime." In 1972, they almost lost it. American troops had been wound down. It was only by a massive air expansion of the Air War, bringing the B52s from Guam, that a South Vietnamese route was halted in the summer of 1972 offensive. Two years later signed the Paris Peace Accords, or actually January (19)73, signing the Paris Peace Accords. At that point, even that air offensive was no longer politically possible. So in 1975, when the North Vietnamese again on the offensive, the entire house of cards collapses. When Nixon and Kissinger agreed that both sides would keep their forces in place, they signed South Vietnam's death warrant. Again, you could prolong it if Congress said, "Yeah, here, take another $500 billion, rush aid to South Vietnam." Maybe the final collapse would have come in 1977 instead of 1975, but there was no way it was going to be [inaudible]. So again, that is a long way of saying that, yes, Tet was the most important turning point because at that point, realization dawned on the American people that this was not World War II all over again. There was not a satisfactory narrative that it was going to end in American victory. And it was only a question of how and when we get out, and how many more American lives would be squandered. In the case of Nixon, it could have spared 20,000 American lives and a million Vietnamese lives. The peculiar thing is that if Nixon had simply come into office in 1969 and said, "I would like to win in Vietnam, we all would. But my predecessors have so screwed up everything that we are just going to go to the peace table when we are going to get out," he would have been a hero. He would have been politically invulnerable in the same way that he was when he went to China. No Democrat could open the door to China, but Richard Nixon could have-
SM (00:28:10):
You are right.
MI (00:28:10):
...could have used to get that Communist credentials. And had he done that, there would have been no Watergate, because Watergate was a direct outgrowth of his desire to keep fighting the war, expanding the war in terms of the Air War secretly, while pretending to the American people that the war was winding down. The plumbers were created to fix the leaks in the State Department. That was where the first illegal wiretaps were on the state department's personnel to see who was leaking information about the secret bombing of Cambodia. So Nixon would have gone down in history as the great unifier, the great peacemaker, no Watergate scandal, but instead, he decided he was going to prolong the war for whatever reason.
SM (00:28:58):
What was amazing about him as a person who was... I am only three years older than you are, and what is amazing is that I was in college at the time, what I considered the arrogance of Richard Nixon, that even though he may have been trying to Vietnamization process and have the peace talks and all the other things, he boldly said that no protestor is ever going to influence me.
MI (00:29:26):
Right.
SM (00:29:27):
No one protesting. And he was referring to college students, but I think he, he is referring to more than that, I think anybody. And that was just pure arrogance, was not it?
MI (00:29:35):
Right. But it also was not true because they were very aware of protests. And when he overlooked that with the invasion of Cambodia in May of 1970, that was the last time he used American ground forces to expand the war. He had suddenly understood the limits of his mandate because that strike in May 1970, I mean, again, the Vietnamese won the war in Vietnam, and it had nothing to do with protests at home. If there had been no protest... That had nothing to do with protests at home. If there had been no protests at home, the war still would have been lost for the U.S. However, it did set some constraints on policy. That strike in 1970 is significant because it was not simply places like Harvard and Wisconsin and Michigan and Berkeley that went on strike. It was places like Kent State, which is a commuter school, a working-class school, in the middle of Ohio in the heartland. It was places like Notre Dame, Catholic colleges, Southern colleges, community colleges, even some of the service academies. The Merchant Marine Academy had a protest. It was the entire younger generation in college that was rejecting war, and a lot of other people in addition, and Nixon never risked that again. Even though basically after the spring of 1970, the anti-war movement continued, it was never as powerful again. The protests between 1967 and May of 1970 created a specter of what could happen if you escalated before.
SM (00:31:22):
I am hearing something. You had been very critical of the current Students for a Democratic Society. I know several students at my former school that are in the current SDS, that they glorify the extreme radicals of that particular period, the Bernardine Dohrns, the Mark Rudds, the Bobby Seales. I find that interesting because there is truth to that, because I just got back from Kent State after being there four days. The main speakers were Bobby Seale, Bernardine Dohrn. Mark Rudd, though, I will say about Mark Rudd...
MI (00:31:59):
Mark is very self-critical. I brought to Mark speak here.
SM (00:32:00):
Yeah. I like Mark. He admits he was wrong and he admits that they destroyed a good thing, which was SDS. Sometimes Bobby is confusing, because Bobby says real good things. I do not see the anger in him anymore, but I do see the... what is the word here? He defends that they were not violent in any way. Bernardine Dohrn, to me, has never said anything to apologize for what has been done.
MI (00:32:30):
No. She has forgotten nothing and learned nothing.
SM (00:32:32):
Yeah. Well, your thoughts on why. Kent State was very important, because you had Alan Canfora there and Chic Canfora, and they were students that experienced it, and some of the more radical students at Kent State. They were there when all this happened. Just your observations on why that group is being idealized more than any others by some of the younger anti-war activists today.
MI (00:33:02):
Well, that is a big question. I think people are drawn to iconic figures. Angela Davis, say, or Bobby Seale, would have a great appeal. They are appealing public personalities in a way that say David Harris is not, or he has not chosen to play that role. One of the things I talked about in my (19)60s seminar is the leaders who chose not to be leaders in the 1960s. One of them is a Hamilton alum. Bob Moses is a critical person in the history of the (19)60s, the Freedom Summer.
SM (00:33:55):
He is the math guy too, isn't he?
MI (00:33:59):
Yes, and spoke at the first SDS anti-war march, and the people of 1965 knew. Really a central figure, who pulled out of the movement and went into self-imposed exile for a while. It was a draft business, but I do not think he felt comfortable in the way that the movement was developing. He was not a Stokely Carmichael. John Lewis, another person. Nobody was as important in the history of the civil rights movement as John Lewis, from the Freedom Rights to the march on Washington in (19)63 to the marches in Selma and in Montgomery, leading the march across the bridge. Lewis pulled out. I mean, he was displaced as SNCC chairman by Stokely Carmichael, but he did not try to out-militant Stokely Carmichael. That would have been difficult. The Berkeley Free Speech Movement...
SM (00:35:00):
Mario Savio.
MI (00:35:00):
...Mario Savio, he continued to be politically engaged, but he pulled out of leadership. He had some problems. I just read a biography.
SM (00:35:10):
Oh, I have read it too. It is a great biography.
MI (00:35:12):
It is a very good bio.
SM (00:35:13):
Robert Cohen, I believe.
MI (00:35:14):
Robert Cohen. There were all kinds of interesting, thoughtful people who simply did not fit in with and could not bring themselves to do the celebrity militant politics of the late (19)60s. What we are left with in terms of public memory are the people who did not have a problem with that, people who were not self-doubting in any sense and have these big extroverted personalities and egos to match, and who are happy to offer themselves up to the later generations as the model (19)60s radical. One of my problems with the idea of creating a new SDS was who in SDS were they looking to as leaders. Not the ones, in my mind, who exemplified the best of the movement, but actually those who killed the movement, who killed SDS, as Mark Rudd says. The second problem with the idea of a new SDS is that the essence of SDS, the reason SDS took off, was because it looked back at previous left-wing movements, and some of these kids were coming out of red-diaper-baby backgrounds. Some of them were coming out of pink-diaper-baby backgrounds, Socialist Party backgrounds. They said, "What came before does not suit us anymore. We have to do something new." SDS grew out of the Student League for Industrial Democracy. Well, what did the League for Industrial Democracy mean to young people at the start of the 1960s? It meant nothing. Industrial democracy meant nothing. They brilliantly renamed themselves as Students for a Democratic Society, which did mean something, and they [inaudible] their own statement, which owed nothing, owed little, to previous left-wing manifestos or ideas. They brilliantly recreated a Left that was relevant to their era and their generation, unlike SDS, which is a brand name. Yes, who would not want to belong to SDS? I would like to belong to the Industrial Workers of the World, but they had their moment in the past. I thought there was an irony involved in paying homage to SDS by doing something very un-SDS-like.
SM (00:37:42):
With Mark, did you talk about that in the class?
MI (00:37:49):
We did talk about that, yeah.
SM (00:37:50):
I interviewed Mark on the phone, then I had dinner with him at the conference. We spent some time together and then the rest of the time, as soon as Bernardine and that group came in, I kind of distanced myself. He has an intellectual, and he likes intellectual conversations. When I interviewed him, he said, "I do not want these fluffy questions. I want something where I can deeply think about it." He is the real deal. He is the real deal, and with respect, he has done some deep thinking about the mistakes that were made. He really admits he is wrong and it destroyed something that he loved deeply, which was SDS.
MI (00:38:27):
Kathy Wilkerson's book is good.
SM (00:38:29):
I have it. I have not read it.
MI (00:38:31):
It is good. I mean, there is problems with it. There is a disconnect at a certain point between her actions. It is hard to see from the book how she changed so dramatically. She came out of Quaker background as well, as did actually quite a number of people in the Weathermen. Jeff Jones, coming out Southern California, I think he had a Quaker-ish background or a pacifist background.
SM (00:39:05):
Well, I know that Thomas Powers wrote the book on Diana Oughton. I have the book, because she is one of the three that died. She was actually the girlfriend of Harris, who ended up marrying Bernardine Dohrn. Not Harris. He wrote a book too.
MI (00:39:24):
Bill Ayers.
SM (00:39:27):
Bill Ayers, yeah, President Obama's friend. I did not realize how close they were.
MI (00:39:32):
Oh, yeah.
SM (00:39:32):
Boyfriend and girlfriend. Okay, we are pretty close to the first half here. How did the New Left of the (19)60s differ from the old left of the (19)30s and the (19)40s? I know personally from what I have read, but what were the defining characteristics in a generation of 74 million? What was the New Left? How did they differ? I say this because I mentioned Mark and how he talked about how he read Che Guevara and these were important ideas. It was all about ideas. When he talked about Mario Savio at the Free Speech Movement, he said, "We are about ideas. We are not about just being here for the corporations. The bottom line, the university's about ideas." The Old Left was more about just pure politics, was not it?
MI (00:40:33):
Well, it was about ideas too, when they were reading their Marx and Lenin. There are a number of crucial differences. One is that the Old Left looked to the industrial proletariat as the agent of social change, so workers organizing around their economic interests would inevitably, through a scientific process that could not be stopped, come to realize their interests were in opposition to that of the employers and eventually they would make a revolution, whether peaceful or violent. People dispute it, but inevitably they would turn to Socialism and seize control of the means of production. That was their idea of who the agent of change was. In the 1960s, the agent of change was young people themselves. Instead of youth organizations like Students for a Democratic Society, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, being the affiliates of adult organizations, which had always been the pattern ...the Socialist Party had the Young People's Socialist League, the Communist Party had the Young Communist League, the League for Industrial Democracy had the Student League for Industrial Democracy. Instead of seeing themselves as the affiliate supporting this adult project, rather, they said ...C. Wright Mills famously wrote in a letter to the New Left, "Look around the world. Who is in motion? Who is demanding change? It is young people," young intellectuals, young workers and so forth, so there was a generational cast to their politics. "We are people of this generation, uncomfortably inhabiting a world we did not make," something like that. It is the opening lines of the Port Huron Statement. That was one thing. The other thing was organizational. The Old Left was hierarchical. In the case of the Communist Party, it was hierarchical and authoritarian. In the case of the Socialist Party it was more democratic, but still there were national chairs and presidential candidates and so on and so forth. The New Left developed a much more ultra-democratic, unto anarchistic ... not in the violent sense but in the sense of being distrustful of all authority, even authority within their own organizations ...which created a very different movement, a very localized movement. A movement, again, without a formal hierarchy, which had a lot of strengths at times, and also made for an impermanent movement and also opened up the movement for infiltration by people like the Progressive Labor Party, who had their own agenda. Ironically, being ultra-democratic meant that the authoritarians could sneak in the back door. That too, in the sense of who was the agent of social change and what was the correct proper organizational strategy, the New Left was fundamentally different than what had come before.
SM (00:43:57):
I know I see it in the current SDS at my university before I retired, is it takes forever to make a decision.
MI (00:44:04):
All process. Process.
SM (00:44:05):
Oh, it is all process, process. Everybody's got to be included. Well, they never make any decisions. That is frustrating.
MI (00:44:12):
Well, that is where it can lead. It is not an adult form of organization. There is a famous story about SDS had projects called the ERAP, Economic-something-something Action Project. One of the projects... I think it was in Cleveland... spent 24 hours debating whether it should take a day off from work to go to the beach. For young people, who have endless amounts of time and patience for that kind of thing, it is a good form of organization. For grownups, that drives you crazy.
SM (00:44:50):
Yeah. Actually, I was driving a few students crazy to join. They did not know. I think they were remembering the history or studying the history.
MI (00:44:59):
Well, there is a third element, and that is I think the pacifist movement was actually very influential in a number of ways. Not that by the end of the 1960s the New left was pacifist. Increasingly it was turning not to violence but at least to the rhetoric of violence, violent imagery and Black Panthers. The notion of a prefigurative politics, that is to say that your movement should embody the values that you hope to create in a new society, came out the pacifist movement. It came out of groups like the Catholic Worker, but others as well. I think was very influential and shaped, particularly in the mid (19)60s, SDS. You see that.
SM (00:45:46):
Hold that line. Hold that line. Very good.
MI (00:45:56):
We were talking about the impacts of the pacifist movement. You see that kind of prefigurative politics, that your movement itself should embody a more harmonious, a more humane, a more communal atmosphere. That is why these kind of campus takeovers, building takeovers, were so important, because at a place like Columbia, for the five days before the police stormed in, the occupied buildings themselves became a kind of model of what a university could be or what a decent society could be. Of course there was a lot of silliness and utopianism and so on and so forth, but it was an interesting moment. If only the world could be like that.
SM (00:46:49):
You talked about there is two different qualities and I am going to address them now, the issue of healing and the issue of trust or lack thereof. You mentioned that in the New Left, that they did not trust anybody. When you look at the generation as a whole, there is a perception out there that the generation, whether they were involved or not, just did not trust anybody in positions of leadership or responsibility, whether it be a university president as a college student, anybody in leadership roles, whether it be a church or synagogue. Because I know my fellow students at SUNY Binghamton did not trust anybody in the religious community, the corporate community, the university community or the political community. They did not trust anybody in leadership roles.
MI (00:47:32):
Right.
SM (00:47:32):
Do you see that as a major characteristic of the boomer generation overall, and by having that characteristic, it is transferred into their lives over the last 60 years and maybe into their children and into their grandchildren, and is that good?
MI (00:47:52):
I do not know if it is good, but it is certainly a fact. It is a fact. I mean, they were taught that by Lyndon Johnson, and they were taught that by Richard Nixon. The publication of the Pentagon Papers and publication of the Watergate transcripts demonstrated the absolute chasm between the public rationale and justification for issues as important as war and peace and what the private position of the policymakers were. John McNaughton, Assistant Secretary of Defense, writes a memo to Robert McNamara and lists statistically... very significant because statistics were the end-all and be-all of the McNamara defense fund... he gives a statistical breakdown of the reasons we were fighting in Vietnam. "Why are we fighting in Vietnam? It is 80 percent to protect our reputation as a guarantor, that is for credibility, 10 percent because we do not want the Red Chinese to take over South Vietnam, and 10 percent because we want the people of South Vietnam to have a free, democratic form of government," which inverted the public rationale, which is like fighting the Nazis, that we are fighting for democracy and free French, and so on and so forth. The lesson was taught, not just to the baby boomers but to their parents as well, that people in Washington would lie to you. At the start of the 1960s, public opinion polls, the Gallup poll or whatever, would ask every year, "Can you trust people in Washington to do the right thing?" 75, 85 percent of Americans, said, "Yeah, you can trust that." "How about corporations?" "Oh, yeah." At the end of the decade, you could not get 30 percent of people to believe that, because they had been through Vietnam, they had been through Watergate. There was a massive collapse in the legitimacy of institutions and leaders, which in one way was a healthy skepticism. You know, you should not trust what public authorities tell you if you do not verify. Trust but verify, as Ronald Reagan once said. On the other hand, I think it also bred a deep cynicism about politics. "Well, if they are all so corrupted they are all liars anyway, the hell of it. I just will not participate." The other thing you see is not only the number of people who trust people in Washington goes down, but voter participation drops down to 50 percent or below. I think by the mid 1970s, it is every election. Richard Nixon wins a landslide election in 1972, but about 10 percent fewer voters are participating than took part in the election 10 years earlier. That was one of the real legacies of the 1960s. That is bounced back a little. One of the interesting things about the Obama campaign is the involvement of young people and really the political participation of young people, which is always lower than that for older people [inaudible] sustained.
SM (00:51:09):
No one believes anybody in Washington today. What is interesting is that the boomer generation, whether they were protestors or not protestors, had I think an attitude that we are going to bring peace to the world. We are going to be different than any other generation, that we are going to end racism, sexism, homophobia. We are going to ... I forget the name of the book. Panacea, this book that we had to read in grad school. Basically, this generation was going to change things. It does not seem to have changed anything. In fact, it seems to have gotten worse. The question is, has the boomer generation as a generation been a failure in terms of their idealism, their hopes and dreams?
MI (00:52:00):
Well, I think it has changed tremendous amounts culturally, if not always politically. I tell my students, "Whatever your politics are, Republican or Democrat or liberal or conservative, you would not like the 1950s. You would feel really out of place in the 1950s at the level of the assumption that this was a white society. Blacks are simply invisible. Go back and read Life Magazine. Try and find blacks in the advertisements or in the news stories. The expectations about women's roles." If you go back and read the Smith or Wellesley yearbooks for the late 1950s, they would list all the people who had their, "Mrs. degree," or the number of people who were pinned or who already married, as they were going out into the world at the age of 22. The notion that women would have a career was simply not thought of, so the kind of double standard in sex and sexuality. In many ways, we are a freer, better, more egalitarian, more humane society as a result of the changes that began in the 1960s, that Rand Paul gets shellacked because he says, "I am not sure I would have voted for the Civil Rights Act." Americans might be anti-government and they might be free marketeers and all that, but the idea that a restaurant owner could discriminate on the basis of race is simply no longer possible to sustain. If you cross that line, you get slapped down, as he did. I would have to say that the (19)60s changed an enormous amount in that, in that disillusionment that followed Vietnam and Watergate, there was a disillusionment with government, and that worked against liberals and that worked against the Left. That worked against the Democrats because the Democrats are the party of government, so people did not simply conclude that government was bad because it lied us into Vietnam and could not win in Vietnam. It generalized, that the government is bad no matter what it tries to do. Regulation is bad. Workplace safety regulation is bad. Glenn Beck says fascism grew out of the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, so progressivism is the beginning of fascism. I mean, you could not possibly have sold that idea at the start of the 1960s. When people thought about big government, they thought about the New Deal and Social Security and workers' rights to organize and so on and so forth. Once that idea of government as benevolent and competent was tarnished in the 1960s, it allowed the Reagan Revolution to establish a new common wisdom, which was the government's not the solution to problems, government is the problem.
SM (00:55:26):
Yeah. Then one thing when you talk about the Free Speech Movement in (19)64, (19)65 in Berkeley, when you talk about the students demanding to be part of the governance of the university and getting a better understanding of the money coming in and the money going out, the donations and everything, this link to the corporate world was talked about at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65. You even see Clark Kerr, in a major speech he gives about the corporate, the multiversity and everything. Students at that time were coming in saying, "I do not want to be that IBM person."
MI (00:56:03):
The knowledge factory.
SM (00:56:04):
Yeah, the knowledge factory. You had that happening in the 1960s, and yet today... and that is the beginning of the Research Institute too. I interviewed Arthur Chickering, who wrote Education and Identity, the great scholar who was the Seven Vectors of Development. Integrity was the seventh one. I interviewed him. My degrees are in higher ed, and I basically said, "Is there anything about the universities today that you criticize?" He said, "Yes, that the universities are again under the control of the corporations." That scares him. Correct me if I am wrong, because someone I interviewed said that when you have universities and corporations in control, you have fascism.
MI (00:56:54):
That seems like an exaggeration.
SM (00:56:58):
That the ideas are being controlled from outside rather than inside.
MI (00:57:03):
Well, universities have sort of returned to a credentialing industry for career advancement. I mean, even in the (19)60s, many more people were business majors than [inaudible] history majors. One of the things on which the 1960s protests depended was this sense, that was not universal at the time, that economic prosperity was a permanent fact in American life, that things were going to get better and better. If you talked about poverty, you talked about poverty thinking it is terrible that these people are not sharing the general affluence. "We are a really affluent society. Why cannot everybody have access to it?" If you are a kid in college, you can think, "Well, I do not have to rush towards the degree." First of all, college is very cheap. I got out of college without any debt whatsoever. We were not from a wealthy family by any means, but what was my tuition, $2,000 a year or something? You could take time off, you could drop out, you could experiment, you could go into public service, you could be a schoolteacher or whatever. You did not have to go think of yourself as being a hedge fund manager so you can pay back your college debts. The underpinnings of that economic prosperity collapsed in the late (19)60s and the start of the 1970s with the energy crisis, stagflation, declining real wages and deindustrialization, none of which were thought of as possibilities at the start of the 1960s, but which became the economic reality through the 1970s and thereafter. Much greater instability, a much greater sense of, "You really need to buckle down, because it is a rat race out there." The number of history majors goes down and down and down, and the number of people going to take classes that they think will get them jobs with a hedge fund just goes up and up and up. I forget what the starting point for this question was. Oh, so the state of the university today. Well, I teach at what is a little outpost of the declining ideal of the liberal arts. Very few students. There are millions of college students, but probably 5 percent of them go to colleges like Hamilton, which is not vocational. I mean, you cannot take a business administration... I mean, you cannot take a business administration. You can take economics, which is what a lot of them do. You know where the ideal is, you are going to be schooled to be a better person, a better citizen, a better thinker. Where most of your teachers are tenured or tenured track. You are not being taught by adjuncts. It is a four-year residential program. I mean, that just does not describe the 95 percent of the college and university student population today. Hamilton used to be the norm. It is no longer that. It is a relic and we know that. And even at Hamilton, I am probably part of the last generation to enjoy the benefits of being a tenured faculty member at a place like Hamilton, where life isn't so bad. At least, I remind myself it is better than working in a coal mine.
SM (01:00:59):
I went to Harper College, Arts and Sciences there. I identified more with Harper College, within the school of Binghamton University, than anything. This is the other very important question I wanted to ask. Let me preface this by saying that, in 1995, I took a group of students to Washington DC to meet the late Senator Edmund Muskie, who was part of our Leadership On the Road programs. He had not been well, and we were still able to secure him through Gaylord Nelson, at the Wilderness Society. Took 14 students down there and they came up with the questions. And one of the questions was, they had looked at 1968, they knew he was the vice-presidential Democrat, running mate with Hubert Humphrey. The nation at that time looked like it was coming apart. The nation was torn apart with assassinations that year with the terrible confrontations in the streets of Chicago. The president withdrawing from the race. And then of course, looking at the (19)60s and all the other things going on. But the question is, "Is this generation going to its grave, the boomer generation, comparable to the Civil War generation, that went to its grave not healing, due to all the unbelievable divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who are against the war, supported the troops or against the troops?" It comes down to a lot of things. I even add on here, through the interviews that I have had with people, the divisions also included, certainly between Native Americans and white people and Latinos and the hard hats against the college protestors. The list goes on and on. I will tell you what Senator Muskie said in response to that question, "What is your question? Do you worry that this generation of 74 to 78 million, maybe they do not have a problem, but that they are going to go to their graves without healing from all these divisions because the division still exist?"
MI (01:03:13):
Well, interesting. I guess healing is not a word I would use, as if growing up is a therapeutic process. I would say that the significant portion of that generation was indelibly marked by the 1960s. My politics, whatever year we are in, 2010 are not my politics in 1968 or 1970. But you can certainly see the influence on the way I understand the world, on the way I understand personal responsibility and the morality. All those things are affected by the 1960s. In the aftermath of the Civil War, people voted as a shot. So for the next 40 years, American politics were dominated by that Civil War generation, north and south, and the political allegiances and conclusions that they drew on the basis of the experience of living through that kind of war. We lived through a war too. Now, oftentimes I will ask my students, "What did your parents do in the 1960s?" Actually depressingly, increasingly, their parents were not alive or were just very young during the 1960s. But when I could ask that question with reasonable assurance that their parents were my contemporaries, sometimes they would call home and say, "What did you do in the (19)60s?" And their parents would say, "Well, I missed the (19)60s. [inaudible] nursing school or I had a young child at home. Or I got married at 21. Or I was living in Dubuque and we did not have the (19)60s until the (19)70s." So one wants to avoid generalizing too much about that experience. Some people simply sailed through it. Most people are not involved in public affairs. It is not important to them. It might, every four years, sort of attract their attention, but most people are focused on home and family and relationships and work and so on and so forth. But for those of us who were involved one way or the other, on one side or another, went to Vietnam or protested against Vietnam, sometimes those are the same people. I think we will carry those influences for the rest of our life to our grave. I do not think that is a bad thing. I do not feel like I need to heal from the 1960s. I think we, as a country, need to understand the lessons of the (19)60s, the meaning of the (19)60s, and not simply reduce it to a set of iconic images and a few stereotypes, whether favorable or unfavorable.
SM (01:06:08):
I think originally when I had talked to the students, I think they were a little influenced by me. Because I think what they were really talking about is what you just mentioned, those who protested against the war and those who served in that war. And thinking that when those who protested the war bring their kids or their grandkids to the wall in Washington DC, are they having second thoughts about, "Maybe I should have served. Maybe I should have been involved. Maybe I should not have gotten a deferment." The questioning, because sometimes kids and grandkids ask questions that really make the parents think even deeper about something.
MI (01:06:53):
Well, I never think that when I go see the wall and I go pretty often. I think, what a terrible tragedy that 58,000 lives were thrown away, not to mention 3 million Vietnamese lives, for nothing. And one of the great stereotypes about the 1960s is that anti-war protestors hated soldiers, hated veterans. It simply was not true. When I got involved, when I went to college in (19)68, I started meeting large numbers of Vietnam Veterans who were protesting the war. Vietnam Veterans against the war had just come into existence. And those guys were our heroes. We assumed, maybe [inaudible], that most people going through that kind of war, being of the same generation, would come back opposing the war. And in fact, there were war protests in Vietnam. People wore black armbands, people wore peace signs. People increasingly refused combat duty. I mean, one of the reasons the war came to an end is because it was destroying the American Army, collapsing morale, drug abuse, [inaudible], AWOL's and so on and so forth. The longer you stayed in Vietnam, the less of an Army you were going to have, in any sense, combat ready. So I do not see... Obviously, there were veterans who came back who hated hippies. I do not doubt that there were a few of them who were spat upon. Although, I think that is also one of the great myths, lots of people were being spat on in airports. I certainly remember anybody who spat on a veteran or somebody in uniform. If you think about it is inherently unlikely, given that hippies tend to be sort of not fighters. And these guys are just coming back from Vietnam. You do not hear about the people being sent to the hospital with broken jaws. Which is what you would expect me hear if somebody spat on you, coming to the airport back from Vietnam. So I do not see that as one of the great divisions in that sense.
SM (01:09:04):
What has the wall done? Obviously, the wall was built to heal the Vietnam Veterans and their families and to pay respect for those who paid the ultimate price. And when Jan Scruggs wrote his book, To Heal a Nation, his goal was to heal those families who had lost the 58,000 plus and all Vietnam Vets, to recognize that when they came home, they were not welcomed. They had another war, but that their service was something to be honored. But in the book, itself also, he talks about the fact that, "He hopes it spreads beyond the veterans to really the nation itself." Do you think it is done a good job there?
MI (01:09:47):
Well, again, I am not crazy about the word, "Heal." After the Civil War, every southern town put a memorial to Confederate dead in the town square. And every northern community put a little model of a statue of a Civil War soldier in the town square. It was a memorial. It is a recognizing the sacrifice of the soldiers who fought on one side or the other. Memorial Day itself began as an annual occasion of putting flowers on the graves of Civil War Veterans specifically, and then it became like Iran sort of general occasions to honor veterans of all American wars. So I think that the Vietnam Memorial has to be understood as that, as a memorial, not as a therapeutic device. But in the design, interestingly, there is an ambiguity that is present in those simply heroic statues of generals or private soldiers, which is, that there is a kind of sadness to it and a contemplative. You can see your reflection in the shining stone, and plus seeing all of the names, of course, it is obviously a powerful device. Initially, it was opposed by some veterans groups who said, "It was a black gash of shame," and so forth. They wanted a more traditional statue, and eventually they put up-
SM (01:11:25):
The three-man statue.
MI (01:11:26):
...three-man statue, which to my mind, it detracts from the effect of the original. But the wall has become the most popular tourist site in Washington. So clearly, people do see it as an appropriate memorial to the Vietnam War.
SM (01:11:47):
The Muskie response was that he did not even comment about 1968, which the students thought he would talk about. His comment said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And dealing with the issue of race, he said, "When 430,000 Americans lose their lives and almost an entire generation is wiped up, particularly in the South, that is a tragedy." And you go to Gettysburg and you see oftentimes the flags on the Southern side. Is there some... Is that a train?
MI (01:12:24):
No, it is the fire siren.
SM (01:12:27):
Oh.
MI (01:12:27):
Tell you also when there is an accident. I hate it.
SM (01:12:32):
This is a question that is kind of different. Is there something about the (19)50s, the (19)60s, and (19)70s, the time when boomers were young, that is rarely discussed, but important in your eyes, with respect to the overall impact that had on 74 million? Something that is rarely discussed but important?
MI (01:12:53):
If it is rarely discussed, I probably have not thought about it or have not discussed it. Well, I do not know if it is rarely discussed, but you often see the baby boom generation counter pose to the Greatest Generation. And recently, we have been living in sort of this Greatest Generation boom let, Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, and [inaudible], The Pacific. I think what has to be understood about the (19)60s generation is of course, they are the children of the World War II generation. And World War II was enormously influential for thinking and worldview. When I grew up, when I was 10, every adult authority figure I had, from my father, to my sixth-grade teacher, to the President of the United States was a World War II Veteran.
SM (01:14:10):
Same here.
MI (01:14:14):
And the war was endlessly celebrated, Longest Day, Great Escape, television shows like Combat and Gallant Men.
SM (01:14:24):
Victory at Sea.
MI (01:14:25):
Victory at Sea, even earlier, Sergeant Rock. So you are kind of living in this. And children's play, Tom Engelhardt has written a good book called, Victory Culture about the way children's play-
SM (01:14:37):
That is with the cowboy on the cover.
MI (01:14:39):
What is that?
SM (01:14:39):
Is a cowboy on the cover? I think there is a cowboy on-
MI (01:14:43):
Oh yeah, I guess.
SM (01:14:44):
...of course. Yeah.
MI (01:14:44):
I guess so, because he takes it back to the narrative victory culture goes back to the Western. But that was the world we inhabited, and there was a tremendous amount of idealism about the United States role in the world as a liberator, liberating force, winning the war as we thought. Because we did not think much about the Soviets. A good war and so on and so forth. I think that idealism carried over into the (19)60s generation just was put into different directions, which was to instead of simply endlessly celebrating American virtues and triumphs, it was to get America action to exemplify the values at its best, it had represented in the past. So lots of people went from being excited about John Kennedy, war hero PT 109, to being excited about the moral qualities of the Civil Rights protestors, people like Bob Moses. And to being disappointed about when America and Vietnam its actions and value, seems so at odds with those World War II values and actions. So World War II did not go away. World War II went away in the 1970s. It would reappear in disguised ways, like the Star Wars Imperial Storm Trooper in helmets, like Nazi helmets and so forth. So it disappeared because of the general war movies went away. People did not want to see movies about war, they had just been through Vietnam. And then at the end of the century, as the veterans were dying off, you quickly realized this generation was not going to be around anymore, then suddenly it returned to the vengeance. But I do not know what I am going to say.
SM (01:16:50):
You made a point there. Why did the children of the World War II generation in the 1950s, all they saw were Westerns, cowboys and Indians. Indians, and guys wearing black hats were the bad guy. And the good guy was always Hopalong Cassidy, the Lone Ranger, Matt Dillon, that whole group. What was the psyche there? Because we grew up as kids with cowboys and Indians, the movies, everything was Cowboys and Indians.
MI (01:17:24):
Well, that had pretty much been the case since the 1890s. I mean, the story of America was the story of Western expansion. And the conflict in Western expansion was the conflict between the cowboys and the Indians or the whites and the Indians. There was little doubt that who was the good guy in that conflict. So it was a powerful story. Hollywood was drawn to it, created its own icons like John Wayne, cowboys and Indians went away in the 1970s.
SM (01:17:56):
Yes, they did.
MI (01:17:58):
Or they changed where the Indians became the good guy, suddenly. That was a product of Vietnam as well.
SM (01:18:07):
Who do you think were the personalities of the Boomer Generation that both good and bad, that had the greatest influence on them, whether they be politicians, activists, writers, you name it, entertainers? Were there things that stood out that really, yes, this was the impact. This person in that group had the greatest impact on everyone, regardless of their politics.
MI (01:18:40):
Well, rock and roll.
SM (01:18:42):
Right.
MI (01:18:42):
I mean, I do not have anything surprising to say about that. But certainly, a lot more people took their politics from music than they did from sitting down and reading a report here on statement. And Dylan, even when he left behind his protest, Woody Guthrie persona for his other personas, he was changing personas every a couple years, but the sort of angry alienation of the mid 1960s music, the, "Do not follow leaders watch the parking meters," was still very expressive of a political worldview. So you cannot underestimate the influence of those pop-cultural figures.
SM (01:19:39):
I know that when I read the March book, Underground, he talked about the importance of Che Guevara. He read about him and thought about him a lot. But why did many of the new left read not only Che, but Mao, David and John Paul [inaudible], Camus? Bertrand Russell, who I loved to read. In fact, the opening of his biography, that first couple lines there, the purpose of his life. I do not know if you remember that line.
MI (01:20:10):
I bet a lot more people wore the T-shirt, than actually sat down than read Che. I bet a lot more people bought and carried around a little red book as a cultural icon, which I did, than actually sat down and read Mao. He was pretty boring. So I do not think, certainly by the late (19)60s, that those figures were so much important as intellectual influences, as they were just as images of heroic gorillas and so forth.
SM (01:20:52):
It is like the thought that a revolutionary can create a revolutionary society. And that socialism, we keep hearing that word today of being labeled against President Obama, which is ridiculous. But that they believed that revolution should happen in the United States. What were they meaning, "Revolution should happen in the United States?" Was it ideas? They were reading this before violence was part of the anti-war effort, before the Weatherman became part of SDS, or they took over SDS, the Black Panthers, the Young Lords in the Latino community, the violence even at the Wounded Knee, which was different than the takeover of Alcatraz in (19)69. So what were they saying here? This was even before violence.
MI (01:21:46):
Well, one of the most powerful texts to come out of the 1960s, published right in the middle of the decade, was the autobiography of Malcolm X. And sales, no doubt, helped by the fact that Malcolm X was assassinated before the book came out. And Malcolm X's story, Malcolm X famously said, "By any means necessary." But he was not himself a violent revolutionary. He simply said, "If that is what it takes to win freedom, then that is what we will do." But the story is really a story of personal transformation, of creating a new identity. He had been a pimp and a drug dealer and a drug addict and a convict who remade himself into this powerful spokesman for Black power, Black pride. And in doing so, it was a very American story. I like to compare it to the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, which is also a story of his recreation. He runs away from Boston and goes to Philadelphia [inaudible] two pennies in his pocket and becomes one of the most important businessmen and inventors and philanthropists, and then later, a revolutionary, a different revolution. I think that that was a very (19)60s message. That idea that you could remake yourself, become a new person, take on a new name. Malcolm Little becomes Malcolm X. So that text strikes me as much more authentically representative of what was driving the politics in the (19)60s, which were a lot about self-transformation, for better or worse. Then Che Guevara's Bolivian notebooks or [inaudible] Revolution, or certainly the Little Red Book, which again, I do not think anybody actually read.
SM (01:23:52):
So you saw that with Cassius Clay and Muhammad Ali. And then you saw that with Lew Alcindor and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. They were all somewhat linked to right Elijah Mohammad. They were never [inaudible].
MI (01:24:03):
Right.
SM (01:24:09):
But anyway, I do not know if you ever had a chance to read Theodore Roszak's book, The Making of a Counterculture and Charles Reich's, the Greening of America. To me, (19)67 to (19)71, they were classic books that we were required to read in our graduate program at Ohio State. And they had a tremendous impact on me. When think of the counterculture and what was happening, would you consider those two of the greatest books to really describe the young people of the era?
MI (01:24:45):
No. I mean, I think they were attempts by well-meaning academics to account for this change. I think if you went back and read them now, they probably would not stand up. I mean, millions of people read them because they wondered, "What the [inaudible] is going on with these kids?" Again, I guess I would turn to novels for one. I turned to a book like, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Ken Kesey. Kesey is an interesting, significant figure. Or Doris Lessing's, Golden Notebooks, especially lots of women, but lots of men were reading Lessing. Again, books about social transformation, identifying with outsiders, people on the margins, On the Road.
SM (01:25:45):
Oh, yeah.
MI (01:25:45):
On the Road was published in 1957 and sells okay. It remains in print, but it is real moments in the 1960s. And what is On the Road? On the Road is an account of this journey of self-discovery, which is in part going to the West, a great American story, but it is also going to the margins. I think a lot of (19)60s politics, youthful (19)60s politics needs to be understood in terms of the identification with people who were on the outs.
SM (01:26:21):
The Beats.
MI (01:26:22):
Well, the Beats, but migrant farm workers. Sal Paradise goes off and picks beans and in Imperial Valley or picks cotton, jazz musicians and so forth. Especially when Kerouac was writing that book, were mostly invisible to most Americans. And the idea that true wisdom, true spirituality... Because Kerouac is nothing if not concerned with things of the spirit, Beat. Beat is the root of beatific and also beaten down. That those notions that you could find truth among people who did not share in that sort of cornucopia of American consumer culture, were not white and middle class and living in suburbs, that was at the center of a lot of (19)60s politics. And so when sharecroppers coming along in the early 1960s trying to register to vote, it was an incredibly evocative image for young people, white and black. That is why Fannie Lou Hamer, who becomes a heroine, because it is this, "Illiterate woman," as LBJ referred to her, stood up to the sheriffs. They beat her and she would not back down. And she says, "If these things can happen, I question America." Well, that had a lot of power. Now, that could translate into things, which looking back, I think we are pretty bad, which is the identification of the Black Panthers, the brothers on the block. Well, they must know something we do not know because they have this gritty, urban, authentic experience. And in fact, [inaudible] about what was going to change America. And in fact, their vision was rejected by most black people. Most black people followed Martin Luther King, they followed Bobby Seale. Black Panthers had 5,000 members at their height.
SM (01:28:30):
Well, can we go over maybe 15 or 20 minutes?
MI (01:28:33):
Sure.
SM (01:28:33):
Because I got about five here. One of the things at the very end, I am going to mention just some names and personalities for just quick thoughts. But when you look at this, this was also a protest generation, or at least protest was very important part. Obviously, you had all the rights movements, from the Civil Rights and Women's Rights, Native American, Latina, environmental groups, certainly the anti-war groups. And they even had, which has led into some of the things today, dealing with ageism and mental rights issues and disability rights and so forth, so it is carried on. And that is a very important part of the... I am getting a lot, [inaudible] here. Of all these movements, and there were a lot of them... The Civil Rights Movement is historic, so I am not even really talking about that. And the anti-war movement, we have talked about. And the Women's Movement somehow was a shoot off because of the fact that there was so much sexism going on in the Civil Rights and in the Anti-War Movement. But of all the movements that took place during that period, and as we have gone into the (19)70s and the (19)80s and the (19)90s, and now in the tens, which of the ones are the most successful in terms of consistency and being on-going? Most successful in terms of consistency and being ongoing in their fight and struggle. Are they all that way or have some kind of taken the back burner? They are not as important anymore, or they do not have the leaders like we had before?
MI (01:30:16):
Well, the civil rights movement was prime formative as, say if you take away the civil rights movement in the (19)60s, it would not have been an anti-war movement. There would not have been witness movement, would not have been in the left counter for anything, would have been small groups like in the (19)50s. But there would not have been movements. It established, it was an inspiration, it was an organizational model. It showed that small groups of people, totally committed, could actually change history. So if you are asking me to rank the movements in terms of importance, I would have to say both in terms of the issues and in terms of the influence that the civil rights movement was the first among equals. Movements can only sustain themselves at that fever pitch of kind of Christ's politics for so many years. The labor movement begins, well just beginning 1930s, but it takes off in the 1930s with the sense that labor is the great news force that is going to transform. Okay. All right. Oh, the labor movement. So the labor movement begins in this kind of fever pitch of commitment idealism and sit down strikes and whatnot. It is going to transform on the world and it becomes institutionalized. It survives, it provides a service function, and in some ways, it becomes bureaucratic in some cases becomes corrupt because you cannot simply be at that crisis edge for forever, wear yourself out. But the moment passes. It is an interesting question. What would have happened to Martin Luther King if he had not been assassinated before 1929? He could well have lived while he had a kind of unhealthy diet, but theoretically he could still be with us today. Would he still be Martin Luther King? Would he be a national icon? Would he be a national holiday after he died? Probably not. Because he would have had to settle down. He would have had to have a life post movement. The people who are around and productive, who came out of that era found a post. John Lewis became a congressman. Loads of good stuff.
SM (01:32:52):
I have interviewed him. He was great.
MI (01:32:52):
[inaudible] (19)60s. Yeah. So you cannot sustain, it is an illusion to think that, oh well, civil rights movement, it is not what it used to be. Well, it could not possibly be. It had its moment. Anti-war protest is waxed and waned in the decades since. There were certainly protests against the Iraq war, although interestingly, the biggest ones were before the Iraq War. Somehow it was hard to sustain once the Iraq War actually came and lasted and lasted and lasted. So I am not surprised, and I do not think it is a commentary on the movements of the 1960s that they are not still around in full force and full throat 40 years later. That is the life of social movements, they come and go.
SM (01:33:44):
One of the criticisms of the social movements today though, is that when protests took place in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, you would see, say for example on Earth Day. Earth Day, Gaylor Nelson consulted with the leaders of SDS before they had the Earth Day on April 22. There was a cooperation and agreement. We do not want us to outshine you, but we would like you to be a participant. There seemed to be signs of all the groups at some of the rallies. Now, this is just my observation. Now, it seems so insular that the gay and lesbian movement is just the gay and lesbian movement signs. The women's issue, just women's movement signs. And civil rights, you do not see any other group. It is all so insular now.
MI (01:34:32):
Okay. Civil rights movement, for a brief moment, to sort of, I am getting coin the phrase, but the we shall overcome moment of basically 1963, 1965 succeeded to the extent that it seemed to embody not simply the needs interests of black Americans alone, but of all Americans. It is to say white Americans who wanted to live in a true democracy, felt that their interests were being represented by the Civil Rights group. They identified with it. What happens post (19)60s, and this is again part of the rise and fall social movements, is that rather than any movement embodying a kind of larger vision, they fragment and they become interest groups, identity politics, is the phrase that is often used. And it is left to the right to pick up that banner. So Ronald Reagan, speaking about his morning in America and government is not the solution. He is the one who has the compelling narrative that this is about all of us, not just about the interest. And part of the problem with Democratic Party, is that it is political platforms and political message seems to become simply a laundry list of the demands of this or that group, without convincingly portraying itself as speaking in the interest of all Americans. And that is why Barack Obama talks about the need for the post (19)60s political paradigm and also kind of reinvent politics. And they will get past those divisive tags left over from the decade, and I wish them luck. Because it does not seem to be happening at the moment.
SM (01:36:27):
He is sometimes labeled by his opponents as the epitome of the reincarnation of the (19)60s.
MI (01:36:33):
Which of course he has no real interest in. I mean Barack Obama is essentially a moderate Republican of the early 1960s. Thinks there is some role for government, it is not central to his vision, thinks some regulation, but he is also a pro-business. I mean, it is ludicrous that people get away with calling it a socialist or a communist, let alone a Nazi dictator. Oh, my God. Do not give me started.
SM (01:37:02):
Yeah, I know. I hear from some of my relatives. I have to walk out of the room.
MI (01:37:09):
Yeah, it is insanity. So anyway, so I am not surprised that the civil rights movement is not what it was or the anti-war movement. If people studied in the 1960s, students studied in the 1960s. I hope what they conclude is that, not that they missed everything, but that you can learn from the example, if not the model. It is certainly not the organizational trappings like becoming from SDS. You can learn how social change happens. Just small groups of people study their situation, understand the need for new kind of politics, new kind of movement, devote themselves to a great cause.
SM (01:37:54):
So many notes here. This is a broad question here, maybe too broad, but what accomplishments lay at the hands of the boomer generation and what disasters lay at the hands of the boomer generation? I think you have already commented on quite a few of them. Anything you want to add to that?
MI (01:38:19):
No.
SM (01:38:20):
Technology, would you say technology is a big plus for this generation?
MI (01:38:24):
Well, not me. I am a technophobe, but I do not even have a cell phone. Right. My children call me a hippie technophobe.
SM (01:38:34):
I have had it for a couple of years. One of the questions back on here, and this is I have asked quite a few people, this particular, not everybody, but in your own words, describe how the following timeframes influenced and developed the boomer generation, between those born between (19)46 and (19)64. I have known already that people told me you cannot generalize. And when we talk about the first 10-year boomers and the second 10-years, it is almost the difference of night and day. But in terms of these periods, just if you were to briefly describe, if you were in a classroom and the students were asking you, professor, would you describe how 1946 to 1960 shape the boomers, just in a couple sentences, what would that be? 1946 to 1960?
MI (01:39:21):
Well, I think it has a lot to do with that post World War II period, the great influence of the war, the prosperity sense of a rising expectations. Sense that anything was possible in your own life. Sense of dissatisfaction with disparity between the idealism absorbed from your parents' experience of World War II and some of the senior sides of American life. And then of course the war itself. The war in Vietnam.
SM (01:39:58):
How about 1961 to 1970?
MI (01:40:01):
Oh, I cannot break it down like that.
SM (01:40:03):
Or (19)71 to (19)80.
MI (01:40:07):
Well, again, my wife was born in 1961. She is a boomer. She got to college in 1979 or 1978. Her life, her experience as a student, her expectations of the world were different to mine. Made a difference, whether it became along the start, middle or the end, used to drive me crazy speaking to when I was doing this kind of interviewing myself with some of the founders of SDS. And they said, "Oh, it is too bad you came along when you did. Too late. You missed everything." Said, "I went to college in 1968. What do you mean I missed everything?" I had to be there in 1962. Really? It was very aggravating. But the experiences were different.
SM (01:40:51):
Well, there is no question though, that when you talk about that period 1980 and beyond, it is as if the whole world of the boomers and it was all when they were young, nothing mattered really when they were older. Because the era of Reagan is 1980 and beyond. Seems like everything has been influenced by him since.
MI (01:41:14):
Right.
SM (01:41:15):
Boomers, instead of criticizing that generation or criticizing the Democratic Party like Barney Frank did and his book, Speaking Frankly, you have got to disassociate yourself from the anti-war and the left wing of the party. Is there anything you can say about the (19)80 to 2010, the last 30 years, in terms of the influence on that generation?
MI (01:41:41):
I mean, again, the pendulum does not swing. We have this tendency to think in terms of decades. So 1980s is the decade of Reagan, just like the 1960s is the decade of John Kennedy and Malcolm X. But I mean, we forget for example, that 1982, the largest war protest in American history, dwarfed the anti-war protests in 1960s took place, people were terrified Reagan’s getting ready to fight nuclear war, nuclear freeze movement was expanding dramatically. And in June of 1982, 3/4 of a million people marched in Washington, not Washington, in New York City. It was the start of the UN session on nuclear disarmament or something to protest Reagan policies. So our history, our selective memory of the past eliminates it. It is like it did not happen. Or in 1981 crushes the [inaudible] strike. Half million people, summoned by the AFL-CIO, go to Washington on Solidarity day, which was in September, maybe late August of (19)81, to protest the crushing of the strike and that gets airbrushed out too. AFL-CIO, it never had a happening in the streets of Washington. Pete Seager was there, singing Solidarity Forever. He was not usually a feature of AFL-CIO, public events. So it is much too simple to say, okay, well boomer generation or the left wing of the boomer generation, has its moment and then sort of packed its bags and went back in its tent and sulked. And things were going on and also, lots of younger people were involved obviously as well. It was not people who gotten their start in the 1960s. I mean, America has never gone, the pendulum has never swung back to where it was in the 1950s. Things remain contested. And certainly Ronald Reagan changed the equation and spoke to a great public disillusionment of the government, which was itself partially a product. Largely a product in the 1960s, Vietnam and Watergate. But it is not simply that the boomers went away.
SM (01:44:17):
A lot of the critics of the boomers say they did. But overall, not everyone, because he cannot generalize.
MI (01:44:24):
So Jerry Rubin started running the meat and meat business so that, you get one sort of iconic figure and you say, oh wow, that is representative of all.
SM (01:44:35):
And Bobby went off, Bobby Seale went off and did a cookbook.
MI (01:44:39):
Well, that is wrong with that? Cooking was a big part of [inaudible].
SM (01:44:42):
He would talk about that at the conference.
MI (01:44:44):
I would talk, actually that reminds me of something, which is food. Food in the (19)50s stank. Food in the (19)70s actually got interesting. And today the concern about food, the local food movement and the slow food movement and the Alice Waters and Michael Pollen and all, that is a product of the 1960s. We were in 1971 when I was in a collective, our Bible and our cookbook was Diet for a Small Planet by Francis Moore Lappe. He is still around and still writing, which was about how you could not sustain a meat-based diet. It was going to be bad for the Earth. It is going to lead global warming because the clearing of land in the Amazon for grazing cattle and so on and so forth. I mean, all of that was a product of the 1960s. And there was a movement that was enormously influential, even on people helping of themselves as part of the counterculture part of the left. But white would like to eat healthfully. That would not have happened if it was not in the (19)60s.
SM (01:45:53):
When you mentioned about food in the (19)50s, I think of two things that immediately come to mind. Number one, milk was brought to your door. Remember they leave milk and then the second thing, they did not have fast food places, but you could not go out and get chicken in the basket. Do you remember that? And that was very popular. What do these things mean to you? These are just quick responses. You already talked about the wall. What does Jackson State and Kent State mean to you?
MI (01:46:20):
Well, personally was sort of the height of the 1960s. All what happened in 1970 was the moment when it seemed like all things were possible. You could stop the war, you could change America. And you know that it was a deadly serious moment, four dead in Ohio.
SM (01:46:46):
What is Woodstock mean to you?
MI (01:46:48):
Well, it means I was 18, I met my girlfriend at Woodstock.
SM (01:46:51):
You were there?
MI (01:46:51):
Yeah. I was there.
SM (01:46:51):
Full four days?
MI (01:46:56):
No, I was only there for a day and night because I was stupid. Because when you went to it, you did not know it was like this historical event. I mean, I bought tickets for a day. I could not afford to buy tickets for the whole time. Nobody bothered to collect your tickets. And then once I got there, it was really cool and really neat. But you did not realize it, 40 years later, be a museum there. And the Jimmy Hendrix would know, sort of have this defining moment on the very last day if I had known that it would have stayed.
SM (01:47:28):
Now what entertainers did you actually see and hear?
MI (01:47:32):
I wrote a piece for the Chronicle Higher Education about them. I had to go check the playlist on Wikipedia. See, I had seen the movie so many times. I was a little confused. But I saw Santana.
SM (01:47:44):
Oh, what a great piece they did, that one.
MI (01:47:45):
I saw Jefferson Airplane and I saw Janis Joplin and I saw Sly and the Family Stone. And those are the ones that spring your mind. Oh, and Country Joe. Although there was a dispute about, on different websites about when Country Joe actually performed. But the website I read that persuaded me was he was after he performed.
SM (01:48:17):
Yeah. And that is where he said, give me an F, give me an O.
MI (01:48:20):
Well he performed twice was the thing.
SM (01:48:22):
How far away were you parked? Did you have to walk miles to get to it?
MI (01:48:26):
Few miles, yeah. I was in the parking lot. Muddy field.
SM (01:48:30):
What do the hippies and the yippies mean to you? The hippies and the yippies, two different groups.
MI (01:48:36):
Well, the yippies were sort of the Abby Hoffman, Jerry [inaudible] for the Chicago Democratic Convention. And it was never really an organization. It was just the people who identified with Hoffman who did in politics, which I did not, especially. The hippies were kind of much broader, diffuse. I mean, when I teach this, I draw circles on the board, overlapping circles. And I would say, okay, hippies, do you mean leftist, anti-war protestors? Here is one circle though, hippies. There is another circle that is a new left. A part of new left, the hippies, here is another circle, it is the anti-war movement. Part of the antiwar movement, were hippies and new leftists, but a lot of them were, so they were not all the same category.
SM (01:49:27):
I interviewed Steven Gaskin, who was a great interview about the farm. Very proud to be a hippie. And they have done unbelievable things too. Inventions. What does Watergate mean to you?
MI (01:49:41):
Well, Watergate proved we were right all along.
SM (01:49:45):
Vietnam, veterans against the war?
MI (01:49:47):
Were central to my understanding of the war. And were heroes to the anti-war movement. And repudiate the motion that there was a split between anti-war protestors, in the one hand, Vietnam veterans on the other.
SM (01:50:03):
What do the communes mean to you?
MI (01:50:05):
Well, lots of us were in communes and thinking that this was an alternative to family and work life and home life, that would sustain itself forever. Of course, it did not but it was certainly an interesting moment. I still find it difficult to cook for less than 13 people because I learned to cook mostly rice and vegetables. But I was cooking for the 13 people I lived with.
SM (01:50:34):
So, you were probably responsible for cooking a meal a week. And then, yeah, because I visited a commune up in Boston, when my brother was a diabetic and everyone responsible for one big dinner a week.
MI (01:50:51):
And you had to clean up too. And that was good training because it meant be cleaned as you cooked. So a big cleanup still.
SM (01:51:01):
How about, what does the counterculture mean to you? And that is counterculture, often defined as the music, the long hair, the clothes, the drugs, the sex, the whole thing.
MI (01:51:12):
Yeah. Well, you just said it.
SM (01:51:13):
Okay. What does the Black Panthers and black power mean to you?
MI (01:51:20):
Well, black power was much broader than Black Panthers. Black Panthers, one organizational expression of it, who unfortunately I think had a very negative effect on terms of their sort of gun idolatry and street thug language, which we took to be represented revolutionary authenticity, but was actually just a sort of cult.
SM (01:51:46):
How about My Lai? What did me My Lai mean to you?
MI (01:51:51):
My Lai was not exceptional, it was representative. I mean, it is not like people were not being killed every single day in terrible ways in Vietnam. It is just the one that we learned about.
SM (01:52:04):
And Tet?
MI (01:52:06):
Tet was the turning point.
SM (01:52:11):
The last part here is, where is my list at? These are just responding very few words. So these personalities or terms? Oh, I do have one question before the final thing here. In about the last 30 to 40 interviews, I have said that there are three slogans that I personally think kind of identify the boomer generation. And the other people had said, we shall overcome. And I wish I did not have on there some. But they are, the more violent aspects of this period are symbolized by Malcolm X, by any means necessary.
MI (01:52:48):
Okay.
SM (01:52:48):
Second is the quote that Bobby Kennedy used. It was a quote from another author, obviously. And that is, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." Which is symbolic of an activism, a positive mentality, non-violent protest. Seeing injustice and wanting to create justice wherever you see it. And the third one is kind of a hippie mentality, that was on a lot of the posters. The Peter Max posters were great for that counterculture in the early (19)70s. And I had one hanging in my room at Ohio State, and that was, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, that will be beautiful." Which was a hippie mentality. And then of course the civil rights mentality was, we shall overcome. And the only other one that people have mentioned was Kennedy's, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." And then the other one was Timothy O' Leary, "To an intern on dropout." Are there any other slogans you think really symbolize? Does that cover it?
MI (01:53:53):
Bob Dylan lyrics are endlessly mineable for insights in these (19)60s. I think I already mentioned, "Do not follow leaders, watch the parking meters."
SM (01:54:01):
Right.
MI (01:54:02):
"You do not need a weather man to know which way the wind blows." And so forth.
SM (01:54:05):
Oh yeah.
MI (01:54:06):
Subterranean homesick blues. We used to sit down and play it endlessly and analyze it over and over again.
SM (01:54:13):
Who were your favorite, besides Bob Dylan, who were your favorite rock musicians? Did you have to have a message in your music or did you just, you would like the combination of message and just great sound?
MI (01:54:31):
Well, I mean the Doors, not political group a message except sex is a message. The approach of the apocalypse is a message. So nothing would surprise you. The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Janis Joplin, Credence Clearwater, Country Joe.
SM (01:55:01):
Were there any Motown performers that you really dug?
MI (01:55:05):
Not so much. I mean, although I think that is a weakness in my musical education, but I mean, I am certainly hear about all the time. So it was part of the musical backdrop.
SM (01:55:16):
Did you ever listen to what is going on by Marvin Gay, which is just one of the greatest? We will end with these, history responded with a very few words to these people or [inaudible].
MI (01:55:28):
Actually one local group, local to the West Coast, Joy of Cooking. You do not hear much about them, they were a Berkeley group. Came, when I was in Portland. They would come up and play, were sort of cult followers of Joy of Cooking, partially because they had women lead guitarists, which was quite unusual in those days.
SM (01:55:45):
You were at the Summer of Love too, were not you? Did you say you were there or no?
MI (01:55:48):
I was in Indianapolis.
SM (01:55:51):
Oh, okay. That is right. That is right.
MI (01:55:52):
We were conscious, that was going on. Everybody laughed at the Scott Mackenzie song, which is now sort of seen as this anthem of the Summer of Love. Sergeant Pepper was really the soundtrack for that summer.
SM (01:56:06):
How about, my first one is Tom Hayden. Thoughts on Tom Hayden?
MI (01:56:08):
Tom is a smart guy. I interviewed him myself, many years ago. And I think he had a sort of complicated politics, years that followed. Sometimes it is true, there are no second acts in American lives. And I think he is an example of it.
SM (01:56:32):
He has written a lot of good books though.
MI (01:56:33):
Yeah, well he was absolutely essential in 1960s. Very brave guy. I was a young reporter from an underground newspaper and I was trying to formulate a question. I could not come up with a way of doing it. He very sort of gently steered me to the formula I still use. He said, "Well, some people would argue this. What would you say to that?" Shaping the question for him. Oh, yes. See, I was floundering. He had been a reporter, student reporter, for the Ann Arbor Daily. So whenever I use that formulation, I think of Tom.
SM (01:57:07):
I will remember that.
MI (01:57:07):
Some people would argue. What do you think?
SM (01:57:12):
Jane Fonda?
MI (01:57:14):
Well, Jane got a bad rap. I actually met Jane Fonda. Jane and Tom, in fact, came from Portland and part of the China Peace campaign in 1973. I washed her dirty laundry. That is fine. She is the most stunningly beautiful woman I had ever seen in my life at that point. She was 30 and I was just a kid. So I had never met a Hollywood star. And it is true, they are kind of incandescently walk into a room. Also, your jaw drops.
SM (01:57:44):
And she had lived with what is his name for a long time before she met Tom.
MI (01:57:49):
Roger Vadim.
SM (01:57:50):
Yeah. Roger Vadim. And she did Barbella.
MI (01:57:53):
Barbarella. So I mean, all the stuff about her being Hanoi Jane. Had one bad photograph taken, but lots of people were traveling to Hanoi. John Baez traveled to Hanoi, actually got caught in an American bombing raid. So it was not a treasonous act.
SM (01:58:14):
How about the Kennedy brothers? Just quick thoughts on John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy.
MI (01:58:18):
Yeah. Well, John Kennedy was a figure in the (19)50s, not the (19)60s, and did not care about domestic reform and was remembered as a reformer, but because of the civil rights movement, picked him up and pushed him in a direction he would not have gone himself. I think Robert Kennedy, under a much more fundamental transformation. He was younger, more attuned to the moment. And it is an interesting question. If Sirhan Sirhan's elbow, had been jostled at the last moment, I think Robert Kennedy would have received democratic nomination in (19)68, and we would not be talking about the onset of the conservative era with Richard Nixon. One of those moments of contingency as we historians, like you say, where a historical accident changes what followed.
SM (01:59:15):
How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey?
MI (01:59:20):
Well, they are both kind tragic figures. They wanted to be domestic reformers and they wound up creating and apologizing for terrible work.
SM (01:59:36):
Dwight Eisenhower?
MI (01:59:39):
Eisenhower looks better, as the years pass. Partially because the Republican presidents who followed him were so terrible. This is not my insight, but political scientists, what is his name? He said that the New deal was ratified by Dwight Eisenhower because... The New Deal was ratified by Dwight Eisenhower because when he came into office, he did nothing to dismantle it. He was not an anti-government crusader, he in some ways expanded it. The largest public works projects in the history of the United States were the Federal Highway Act of 1956, which he pushed for.
SM (02:00:19):
Right. And the Eisenhower Locks up in the North.
MI (02:00:21):
Yeah. And again, in terms of foreign policy, although John Foster Dulles talked a mean game about rolling back communism, Eisenhower was pretty cautious.
SM (02:00:32):
What about Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
MI (02:00:38):
I tell my students that you only really hate one president in your life, so choose carefully. Because I really utterly, totally loathed Richard Nixon. And there have been Presidents since whose policies I have found repellent, but I cannot summon the level of vitriol that I did for Richard Nixon. And Agnew was joined at the hip with him.
SM (02:01:04):
Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern?
MI (02:01:08):
Well, I have met McGovern, brought him here to speak. And he was the first Presidential candidate I voted for in 1972. I think he would have been a good President. McCarthy had the courage that Bobby Kennedy lacked to challenge a sitting incumbent Democrat, so it is an admirable act.
SM (02:01:30):
You have already talked about Malcolm, but just comparing thoughts on Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr.
MI (02:01:36):
Well, King was a great... They are often thought of as the moderate and the radical. But King was, to my mind, the better radical. And he really talked of... First of all, he was more realistic politically. He could build coalitions which Malcolm X could not do. And lead great consent, and actually risked his life, while Malcolm was killed by his own followers or ex-followers of the nation of Islam, whereas King was on the front lines of endless confrontations and responded non-violently. King was a real radical, and we forget that the slogan of the (19)63 March on Washington was not just Freedom Now, it was Jobs and Freedom. In the beginning, he wanted to link economic change with social and political change, and that was what he wound up doing at the end. We also forget how unpopular he was. Now, we are so in love with King, we think he is so wonderful. But many Americans hated him for opposing the war. His coming out against the war in spring of 1967 was enormously influential and legitimizing for people like us who were just beginning to cover anti-war politics.
SM (02:02:49):
But of course, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, and George Bush the first. I make a comment on Ronald Reagan when he came in, he emphatically said, "We are back," which means that the military is going to get stronger again. We are going to change the military. And then of course, Vietnam syndrome is over. And I remember George Bush saying, number one, saying that. So those three, Bush, Ford, and Reagan.
MI (02:03:16):
Well, Ford was an accidental President and was not in office long enough to move or do anything too bad. Reagan's politics, again, I find the antithesis of my own, both domestically and in terms of foreign policy. But Reagan is actually remembered as having won the Cold War. Well, I think he contributed to the end of the Cold War in the sense that he actually made an opening to Gorbachev, allowed Gorbachev to be Gorbachev. It was not by saber-rattling or building expensive, useless systems like Star Wars that he brought about the end of the Soviet Empire. Rather it was by seeking agreements. Reagan and Gorbachev signed the only arms limitation agreement which actually is an arms reduction agreement. The IMF, I believe in 1987, all the others, assault ones, simply said, "Okay, you can build more bombs, but you have to stop at this point." And Reagan, again, this is sometimes forgotten, at one point, meaning I think it was at Reykjavik or Reykjavik, however you say that said to Gorbachev, "Why do not we just do away with nuclear weapons all altogether?" Which horrified his own hawkish advisors, Reagan's advisors. Because he actually had this utopian streak. He actually really loathed nuclear weapons, and the idea of nuclear warfare he found genuinely horrifying. And we forget that. So Gorbachev thinking, "Okay, I have got this soulmate in Washington," was then able to step back from Afghanistan, from Eastern Europe. In 1989, the Soviets had 400,000 soldiers in East Germany. And Gorbachev said, "Stay on your bases. Do not interfere." If they wanted to crack down on what was going on in East Germany, they could have put an end to that real quick. But Gorbachev said, "It is a new world. We have to get used to it. If we lose Eastern Europe, we lose Eastern Europe."
SM (02:05:24):
Do you talk to your students at all in the (19)60s course about Ronald Reagan's coming to power as governor of California?
MI (02:05:31):
Yeah.
SM (02:05:32):
And what is really-
MI (02:05:33):
It is another of those ways in which the (19)60s were seed time for the conservative revival.
SM (02:05:40):
I interviewed Ed Meese, and it was great because he was the Assistant District Attorney of Alameda County. And at the time of the free, excuse me, yeah, Free Speech Movement. And he was not working for Reagan at the time, but he heard about him and they did not know each other. And then, of course, he had appointed him to be in his administration. And of course, he was involved with the People's Park crackdown and heavily involved in that. And of course, Reagan came to power dealing with the students.
MI (02:06:15):
Yeah, I will tell you a (19)60s story that has something to do with People's Park. Hamilton had compulsory chapel, been a part of the college since the beginning and had been whittled down over the years so that by 1964, there was only one... You only had to go on Sunday. We used to have to go twice a day every day of the week. But in 1964, Hamilton, which again is a sort of small, isolated men's college in upstate New York, but not the cutting edge of politics. But in spring of 1964, a freshman by the name of Daniel Steinman wrote a letter to the Spectators, this college newspaper, saying, "This is ridiculous. Why do we have to do this? It is an infringement on our conscience, and religious freedom and so on and so forth. I call on my fellow students to refuse to go into chapel on next Sunday, instead sit non-violently, not blocking way, to sit on the chapel steps instead." And 150 Hamilton students did so.
SM (02:07:14):
Oh, my God.
MI (02:07:14):
It is not like this was a hot bed of radicals.
SM (02:07:15):
Oh, yes.
MI (02:07:19):
Most of the people that did so just did not want to go to compulsory chapel. And a month later the trustees said, "Okay, no more compulsory chapel." So this 150-year-old tradition came to an end because this one college freshman said enough is enough.
SM (02:07:33):
That is student empowerment, really. That is the...
MI (02:07:37):
There is a correlation to this.
SM (02:07:38):
Okay.
MI (02:07:40):
So three years later he graduates and he goes off to the University of California to start law school at Bull Palm. And he was elected as the president of ASUP, Associated Students University of California. And at a rally in May of 1969, he is the guy who says, at the end of his speech, "Let us go take the park." So Daniel Steinman, who had gotten his start in radical politics leading a sit-in on the front steps of the chapel was the one who sent the mob marching on People's Park, which resulted in a month of civil disturbance, helicopters, James Rector getting killed, helicopters dropping CS gas on Sproul Plaza.
SM (02:08:19):
That is right. Yeah.
MI (02:08:21):
So I do not know whether he was happy with that distinction, but...
SM (02:08:25):
That is irony, though. He is a historic figure then really, when you think about it.
MI (02:08:30):
Yeah.
SM (02:08:30):
Are they proud of him here at Hamilton?
MI (02:08:32):
I do not think they-
SM (02:08:34):
They hide it.
MI (02:08:35):
Well, neither. I am writing the bicentennial history of the college. I just finished writing it, and I put him into the book just because I thought it was an interesting sideline.
SM (02:08:43):
That is an interesting sideline.
MI (02:08:45):
But I do not know how I stumbled on that fact.
SM (02:08:47):
But that, because I had mentioned People's Park with Ed Meese.
MI (02:08:49):
Right. But I do not know how I found out about Steinman's role, but I thought it was quite interesting. He still practices law. I look him up on the website.
SM (02:08:57):
When I am done with my interview, I want tell you a story that Ed Meese told me. I do not want to ruin it here now, though. The Berrigan brothers, Phillip and Daniel Berrigan and Dr. Benjamin Spock.
MI (02:09:09):
Well, the Berrigan brothers kind of emblematic of the Catholic Left, which also often gets left out of the story. And some relationship to, though independent of the Catholic worker movement, were very significant figures. And of course, Philip Berrigan was... There were crimes that they committed. Crimes? They threw blood on draft records. But Philip Berrigan was at the center of one of these alleged conspiracies, which jurors were rejecting. The Harrisburg Seven were acquitted, like the Gainesville Eight. Nixon Justice firm was setting up these elaborate conspiracy indictments against different groups, Catholic Left and Vietnam Veterans Against the War. And by the early 1970s, ordinary jurors, middle-aged, middle class jurors simply were not buying government propaganda, throwing those things out of the court.
SM (02:10:11):
How about Spock?
MI (02:10:15):
I was raised as a Spock baby. Simple version of that is permissiveness. Dr. Spock created this whole generation of so on and so forth. But actually just continued to trend towards child-centered families that had been developing since the early 19th century.
SM (02:10:34):
In my job at the university, we brought Daniel and Phillip to the campus. We brought Daniel, and then we brought Phillip, and Elizabeth McAllister, his wife, and he gave his last presentation in Phillip's library three weeks before he died, his last public presentations at Westchester University.
MI (02:10:52):
Interesting.
SM (02:10:53):
I went, because we had honored Frederick Douglass, who gave his last speech in 1895 at Westchester University. And I went to the administration and I said, "I think we need to put a plaque inside the room that this was the location where Phillip Berrigan gave his last speech." You can guess what they told me to do. Take a hike and jump off a bridge.
MI (02:11:24):
Do you have a watch on?
SM (02:11:24):
Oh, yeah.
MI (02:11:24):
Just to make sure of the time. At some point I [inaudible].
SM (02:11:24):
Yeah. It is 4:00. I only got maybe five, six more minutes here.
MI (02:11:28):
Okay.
SM (02:11:28):
The other ones are certainly the Black Panthers, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Stokely Carmichael, H Rap Brown, Huey Newton, that group, they were all unique and different personalities, but they were all part of that group.
MI (02:11:42):
Right. Well, I think overall the impact of the Black Panthers was very negative on the Black left and on the white left as well, with the sort of gun idolatry and the adventurous politics that they represented.
SM (02:12:05):
The others, Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers.
MI (02:12:09):
Ellsberg was central, the original whistleblower, and also a boon to historians. Most histories of the Vietnam War down to the present are simply glosses on the Pentagon Papers. And that was the basic documentary record.
SM (02:12:25):
Angela Davis, she was not a Black Panther.
MI (02:12:28):
No. Well, I think Angela Davis went to Paris on the Hamilton Junior Year Abroad program. She was a Brandeis student, so she had a Hamilton connection. A very charismatic figure. I think she was guilty as health. She was another acquittal, but I have no doubt that she was involved with buying the guns that were used in the Marin County Courthouse Shootout.
SM (02:12:55):
That is the one where George Jackson's brother was involved.
MI (02:12:58):
Dr. Jackson.
SM (02:12:58):
He got killed, did not he? I think.
MI (02:12:59):
He was killed.
SM (02:13:00):
Yeah. Let us see, just a few more here. Robert McNamara and Woodward and Bernstein.
MI (02:13:09):
Well, McNamara, he saw what he had done. He was horrified by it. He was weeping in his office in the Pentagon, but he kept his mouth shut for 30 odd years. And then when he spoke out finally in 1995 about what he really thought, he found himself loathed both by the left and the right, both by people who had supported the war and people who opposed the war. And was not an admirable figure. He was the architect of the war. Kept silent when speaking out might actually have made a difference. On the other hand, you cannot imagine Donald Rumsfeld ever 30 years later saying, "Gee, the Iraq War was not such a good idea after all."
SM (02:13:55):
And Woodward and Bernstein?
MI (02:13:58):
Well, they did not bring down Nixon by themselves. Judge John Sirica was probably much more instrumental in that. But they got on the story early and they pursued it. And they owned it in a way that...
SM (02:14:10):
Timothy Leary.
MI (02:14:12):
Showman, opportunist, obviously influenced a lot of people.
SM (02:14:20):
Muhammad Ali.
MI (02:14:23):
Very important figure, again, in that sort of sense of personal transformation. So central to (19)60s politics and (19)60s culture. Great fighter.
SM (02:14:34):
The female leaders, which Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, some of that group of politicians.
MI (02:14:42):
Yeah. If you go back and you read the Feminine Mystique, in much the same way as we were talking about the Civil Rights movement, it is not really just about women. It is about what kind of families do we want to have? What kind of society do we want to have? And I think part of its success, its influence was that lots of people can identify with it. Obviously, women were her main constituency and readership, but it was one of those moments when the feminism was speaking with a universal appeal.
SM (02:15:25):
SDS and the Weathermen, I think you have already talked about them. How about the American Indian Movement? Your thoughts on... That was a four-year phenomenon, really.
MI (02:15:34):
Yeah. It was an example of the influence of the civil rights movement that all kinds of other subgroups suddenly began to see themselves as having rights that needed to be defended in a confrontational style. They skirted. Well, they did not skirt, they embraced the violent politics, which I think worked against them. And their leader is still in jail many decades later.
SM (02:16:01):
Barry Goldwater and William Buckley.
MI (02:16:05):
Reinvented American conservatism.
SM (02:16:09):
Jackie Robinson.
MI (02:16:13):
Obviously, major figure in terms of the idea that American athletics was all white up through the end of the 1940s is kind of astounding in a sense.
SM (02:16:26):
He was a supporter of Richard Nixon. I could not believe that.
MI (02:16:31):
Right. Well, Nixon, for a while, Martin Luther King thought that Nixon had really good racial politics in the 1950s.
SM (02:16:41):
Chicago Eight.
MI (02:16:48):
You would have to separate them out. Some of them I think were incredibly important. And responsible figures like Dave Bellinger, Hayden obviously left. Jerry and Abby were entertaining clowns.
SM (02:17:03):
Bobby Seale was.
MI (02:17:05):
Bobby Seale.
SM (02:17:05):
Lee Weiner was in that group. He is still an activist. I think he is an environmental activist. And he has actually been involved in Jewish rights all over the world. I am trying to find the two that you do not hear about are Lee Weiner and the professor out in California, the eighth person.
MI (02:17:26):
Yeah, I know.
SM (02:17:27):
Anyways. But they are both still involved.
MI (02:17:29):
Right.
SM (02:17:30):
But you do not hear about it as much. And I guess we will finish with how important you feel the Free Speech Movement was overall and the Peace Corps.
MI (02:17:43):
Well, the Free Speech Movement sort of established a paradigm for campus protestors. Just to say that up to that point, protests had been launched from campuses, but not directed at university policy. And thereafter, university policy would become a central concern of new left activists. The difference was that the Free Speech Movement thought of itself as defending the best principles of the university with general intellectual and liberal arts principles as opposed to sort of the corporate shill aspects of the university. Later on-
SM (02:18:22):
Okay.
MI (02:18:23):
I was saying the Free Speech Movement identified with the universities, even while challenging university policy. But later on, I think unfortunately the universities came to be identified as, he was caught in the bushes, as the enemy, as part of the war machine and just shut it down.
SM (02:18:47):
And the Peace Corps, is this times of service?
MI (02:18:51):
Still here, part of the inspirational, idealistic side of the Kennedy administration.
SM (02:19:00):
The only last ones I have here is, of course, 1963 was the assassination of President Kennedy. Where were you? Do you remember the exact location where you were when you heard he had been killed?
MI (02:19:12):
Yeah, I was in eighth grade. I was in art class. Our teacher, Mrs. Williams, walked in the door and she was weeping, which impressed the heck out of me. I knew something important happened, because I had never seen an adult authority figure, let alone a teacher, crying. So we were all sent home, watched television the next four days, including Oswald's assassination.
SM (02:19:37):
Yes. You saw it live, too.
MI (02:19:38):
Well, I do not think I saw it live.
SM (02:19:39):
I did.
MI (02:19:40):
I saw in endless loop thereafter.
SM (02:19:42):
Yeah.
MI (02:19:43):
And then the funeral, the state funeral on...
SM (02:19:49):
He wants to go in. He wants to go in. I am down to my last three here. Okay. Let us see where my... Yeah. And the second one, do you remember where you were when you heard that Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were killed? Exact moment.
MI (02:20:21):
I do not remember Martin Luther King. I remember it happened. And I remember hearing about Kennedy's assassination the next morning on television. And by that point, assassinations had become so commonplace that I just sort of thought, "There is another one."
SM (02:20:46):
Were you in front of-
MI (02:20:47):
It was so much less powerful an experience than hearing that John Kennedy had shot, which itself is testimony to how common assassination had become.
SM (02:20:59):
Were you very fearful on the Cuban Missile Crisis that we-
MI (02:21:02):
I was not aware of it.
SM (02:21:05):
Okay. And the last one I have here is just the black and white TV of the fifties, which is Walt Disney, Howdy Doody, Hopalong Cassidy, those kinds of television shows. What were your favorite shows as a kid? Did you watch all those, too?
MI (02:21:21):
Sure. I was totally swept up in the Davy Crockett craze, which was the first great-
SM (02:21:26):
And Fess Parker just passed away recently.
MI (02:21:27):
I saw that. I played something for my students from YouTube with Fess Parker David Crockett.
SM (02:21:33):
Oh, wow.
MI (02:21:34):
I could sing all the words when I was five.
SM (02:21:35):
King of the wild frontier.
MI (02:21:40):
King of the wild frontier. Born on the mountaintop in Tennessee.
SM (02:21:42):
Greatest state in the land of the free.
MI (02:21:44):
Yeah. Killed in a bar when he was only three. Lived in the woods, so he knew every tree. Killed in a bar when he was only three.
SM (02:21:49):
Davy, Davy Crockett. Buddy Ebsen was his sidekick.
MI (02:21:52):
Yep. So yes, obviously. And all those westerns, I could bore you by singing theme songs to at least a half a dozen of them.
SM (02:22:03):
Have Gun Will Travel reads the card of a man.
MI (02:22:03):
A knight without honor in a savage land.
SM (02:22:03):
Yep.
MI (02:22:03):
So yes, I was a child with the television.
SM (02:22:13):
And those TV shows, those family, Donna Reed Show, Father Knows Best, Leave It to Beaver. Well, that was the ideal family of the fifties, but, boy, it was really hiding what was reality in the-
MI (02:22:29):
Yeah, I had a working mother, so it did not seem to describe my family. She was not standing around the kitchen in pearls and high heels washing the kitchen floor. Also, our kitchen would not look like theirs.
SM (02:22:42):
The last two Presidents are the Bill Clinton and George Bush. What are your thoughts on them? Because they are the only Boomer presidents.
MI (02:22:49):
That is right.
SM (02:22:49):
And someone said, "When you see their weaknesses, you are saying you can tell they are Boomers." I have had a couple people tell me that. Can you say that they are Boomers by looking at their life and their-
MI (02:23:03):
No. George Bush missed the (19)60s. He was a (19)50s character. He was consumed with his fraternity of skull and bones, or whatever it was.
SM (02:23:14):
Right.
MI (02:23:17):
So he was not really a (19)60s character at all. Clinton, sure, he was a (19)60s character. He was also... It is not like everybody who came out of the (19)60s was a womanizer with a taste for women with big hair. He was who he was. He is like a lot of politicians, which is an interesting point. Compare him to John Kennedy. John Kennedy makes Clinton look like a piker. Bill Clinton only had one affair while he was in the White House. John Kennedy had hundreds of women cycling through. So Clinton famously met Kennedy. He thought the rules had not changed. He thought he could be John Kennedy, the open zipper presidency.
SM (02:23:59):
Wow.
MI (02:24:00):
So was John Kennedy a typical boomer? Hardly.
SM (02:24:08):
Yeah. This is the absolute last question. And that is, when the best history books are written, or sociology books you know as a historian, they are often written 50 years after an event. And my question is when the best history books or sociology books are written on the Boomer generation after the last Boomer has died?
MI (02:24:31):
Probably so.
SM (02:24:32):
Yeah. What do you think history will say about that generation?
MI (02:24:40):
Well, that is one of those impossible questions, isn't it? I think we have much better histories of the Civil War being written now than were written when a Civil War veteran was alive, so I think that is true. We will understand the (19)60s finally when we are all gone. But it is precisely because I am part of the moment. And when I teach this course, I say to my students, "You have to be able to separate out when I am speaking with my historian's hat on and when I am speaking as an artifact." And you can learn from both, but there are some different messages involved.
SM (02:25:16):
Very-very good. Is there a question I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask?
MI (02:25:20):
No.
SM (02:25:20):
Well, thank you very much.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Dr. Maurice Isserman
Contributor
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Isserman, Maurice ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
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audio/wav
Subject
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College teachers; Hamilton College (Clinton, N.Y.); Radicalism--United States; Isserman, Maurice--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Maurice Isserman, born in Hartford, Connecticut, is a professor at Hamilton College and an accomplished author. He got his Bachelor of Arts in History from Reed College and his Master of Arts in American History and his Ph.D. from the University of Rochester. Dr. Isserman specializes in modern U.S. History, American radical movements, and global exploration and mountaineering.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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ND
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In copyright
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.130a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.130b
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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145:25
-
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074b152394a8b510d49a859335087f77
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
William H. (William Howard) Josephson, 1934-
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
85:43
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bill Josephson is an attornay and author. Currently, he serves as the senior advisor for the Sargent Shriver Peace Institute. Josephson received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and his Juris Doctor degree from the Columbia University School of Law. He also studied at the New School for Social Research and St. Antony’s College, Oxford University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15107,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"open_sansregular, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif","16":10}">Bill Josephson is an attorney and author. Currently, he serves as the senior advisor for the Sargent Shriver Peace Institute. Josephson received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and his Juris Doctor degree from the Columbia University School of Law. He also studied at the New School for Social Research and St. Antony’s College, Oxford University.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Henry Kissinger; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Peace Corps; AmeriCorps; Vietnam Memorial; 14th Dalai Lama; Sargent Shriver; Trust; Tom Hayden; Berry Brown; Jane Fonda; Pentagon Papers; George Mcgovern; Shirley Chisholm; Students for a Democratic Society; John Lennon."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Henry Kissinger; Richard Nixon; Ronald Reagan; Peace Corps; AmeriCorps; Vietnam Memorial; 14th Dalai Lama; Sargent Shriver; Trust; Tom Hayden; Berry Brown; Jane Fonda; Pentagon Papers; George Mcgovern; Shirley Chisholm; Students for a Democratic Society; John Lennon.</span>
Subject LCSH
Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Josephson, William H. (William Howard), 1934--Interviews
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Bill Josephson
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Josephson, William H. (William Howard), 1934- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Josephson, William H. (William Howard), 1934--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Bill Josephson is an attorney and author. Currently, he serves as the senior advisor for the Sargent Shriver Peace Institute. Josephson received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Chicago and his Juris Doctor degree from the Columbia University School of Law. He also studied at the New School for Social Research and St. Antony’s College, Oxford University.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.132a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.132b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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85:43
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Acel Moore
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
66:31
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Acel Moore (1940-2016) was an old school journalist who won the the Pulitzer Prize. He created the Acel Moore Workshop and hundreds of highschool students have participated in the program."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6979,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"9":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Acel Moore (1940-2016) is a Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper columnist who began his career with the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em>. He began as a copy clerk in 1962 and worked his way toward becoming a staff writer from 1968-1981. In 1979, Moore won the Pennsylvania Bar Association Scale of Justice Award for his series on the juvenile court system. During this time he also co-hosted a TV show called <em>Black Perspectives on the News</em> on Philadelphia WHYY Public Television. In 1973, Moore won the Pulitzer Prize for local investigative reporting for his series on abuse of inmates at Fairview State Hospital. From 1980-1989, he served on the faculty at the University of California-Berkeley where he administered the school's summer program for minority journalists. Through the years he also was a faculty member at Temple University and Florida A & M University. Moore lectured at many colleges all over America and directed recruitment, training, and staff development at the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em> where he was Associate Editor and member of the prestigious editorial board. Acel Moore founded the National Association of Black Journalists (NABJ) in 1975 and was honored with the NABJ 2005 Legacy Award. In 1984, he also created the Journalism Career Development Workshop that trained dozens of Philadelphia high school students, The program continues today in his honor. He was the recipient of many honors right through his retirement in 2004. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Human rights movement; Civil Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam War; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Human rights movement; Civil Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Vietnam War; Tom Hayden; Jane Fonda; John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy.</span>
Subject LCSH
Journalists; Awards—United States; Moore, Acel--Interviews
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Acel Moore
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Moore, Acel ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Journalists; Awards—United States; Moore, Acel--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Acel Moore (1940-2016) was an old school journalist who won the the Pulitzer Prize. He created the Acel Moore Workshop and hundreds of highschool students have participated in the program."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6979,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"9":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Acel Moore (1940-2016) is a Pulitzer Prize-winning newspaper columnist who began his career with the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em>. He began as a copy clerk in 1962 and worked his way toward becoming a staff writer from 1968-1981. In 1979, Moore won the Pennsylvania Bar Association Scale of Justice Award for his series on the juvenile court system. During this time he also co-hosted a TV show called <em>Black Perspectives on the News</em> on Philadelphia WHYY Public Television. In 1973, Moore won the Pulitzer Prize for local investigative reporting for his series on abuse of inmates at Fairview State Hospital. From 1980-1989, he served on the faculty at the University of California-Berkeley where he administered the school's summer program for minority journalists. Through the years he also was a faculty member at Temple University and Florida A & M University. Moore lectured at many colleges all over America and directed recruitment, training, and staff development at the <em>Philadelphia Inquirer</em> where he was Associate Editor and member of the prestigious editorial board. Acel Moore founded the National Association of Black Journalists (NABJ) in 1975 and was honored with the NABJ 2005 Legacy Award. In 1984, he also created the Journalism Career Development Workshop that trained dozens of Philadelphia high school students, The program continues today in his honor. He was the recipient of many honors right through his retirement in 2004. </span>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
No copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.136a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.136b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
66:31
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Wally Nunn
Date of Interview
ND
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
80:31
Biographical Text
Wally Nunn, a former Army helicopter gunner, later became chairman of the Delaware County, PA. He is also the former head of Mid-Atlantic Public Finance Region of Citigroup Global Markets Inc. and former chairman of the Board of the Freedoms Foundation at Valley Forge. Nunn was the founder and leader of the non-profit "The Friends of the Grove."
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Vietnam Veterans; Jane Fonda; Malcolm X; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Berrigan Brothers; Muhammad Ali; Richard Nixon; Lyndon B. Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; George McGovern."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Vietnam Veterans; Jane Fonda; Malcolm X; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Berrigan Brothers; Muhammad Ali; Richard Nixon; Lyndon B. Johnson; Hubert Humphrey; George McGovern.</span>
Subject LCSH
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Citigroup (Firm); Nunn, Wally--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Wally Nunn
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Nunn, Wally ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Citigroup (Firm); Nunn, Wally--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Wally Nunn, a former Army helicopter gunner, later became chairman of the Delaware County, PA. He is also the former head of Mid-Atlantic Public Finance Region of Citigroup Global Markets Inc. and former chairman of the Board of the Freedoms Foundation at Valley Forge. Nunn was the founder and leader of the non-profit "The Friends of the Grove."
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.139a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.139b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
80:31
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Norman J. Ornstein
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
46:33
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Norm Ornstein is a writer, editor, columnist for National Journal, and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research. He also serves as an election analyst for CBS News. Ornstein received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Minnesota, and a Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Michigan."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Norm Ornstein is a writer, editor, columnist for National Journal, and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research. He also serves as an election analyst for CBS News. Ornstein received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Minnesota, and a Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Michigan.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"The nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Kent State shooting; Jackson State killings; Watergate; Voter rights act; Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam Memorial."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">The nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Kent State shooting; Jackson State killings; Watergate; Voter rights act; Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam Memorial.</span>
Subject LCSH
Authors; Editors; Journalists; American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research; Ornstein, Norman J.--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dr. Norman Ornstein
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Ornstein, Norman J. ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Authors; Editors; Journalists; American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research; Ornstein, Norman J.--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Norm Ornstein is a writer, editor, columnist for National Journal, and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research. He also serves as an election analyst for CBS News. Ornstein received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Minnesota, and a Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Michigan.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.144
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
46:33
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jack Smith, 1945-2004
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
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94:27
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jack Smith (1945-2004) was an Emmy Award-Winning former correspondent for ABC News. Smith is known for reporting on the Iran-Contra affair, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and technology in the Silicon Valley. He received Bachelor's degrees from Carnegie Mellon University in 1971 and from Oxford University in 1974."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Jack Smith (1945-2004) was an Emmy Award-Winning former correspondent for ABC News. Smith is known for reporting on the Iran-Contra affair, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and technology in the Silicon Valley. He received Bachelor's degrees from Carnegie Mellon University in 1971 and from Oxford University in 1974.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Sexual revolution; College; Counterculture; Labor union; Flat wages; VISTA; End of Vietnam War; Self-indulgence; Consumer Movement; Jane Fonda; Vietnam Memorial."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Sexual revolution; College; Counterculture; Labor union; Flat wages; VISTA; End of Vietnam War; Self-indulgence; Consumer Movement; Jane Fonda; Vietnam Memorial.</span>
Subject LCSH
Reporters and reporting; ABC News; Smith, Jack, 1945-2004--Interviews
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Title
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Interview with Jack Smith
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Smith, Jack, 1945-2004 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Reporters and reporting; ABC News; Smith, Jack, 1945-2004--Interviews
Description
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Jack Smith (1945-2004) was an Emmy Award-Winning former correspondent for ABC News. Smith is known for reporting on the Iran-Contra affair, the fall of the Berlin Wall, and technology in the Silicon Valley. He received Bachelor's degrees from Carnegie Mellon University in 1971 and from Oxford University in 1974.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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ND
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.151a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.151a
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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94:27
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Roosevelt Johnson
Duration
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160:18
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Roosevelt Johnson was a psychologist, counselor, educator and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana. Dr. Johson died in 2015."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15359,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson (d. 2015) was a psychologist, counselor, educator, and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC, and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D. at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Post civil rights; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Activism; Generation X; Kent State; Vietnam War; Black Panthers; Vietnam Memorial."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Post civil rights; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Activism; Generation X; Kent State; Vietnam War; Black Panthers; Vietnam Memorial.</span>
Subject LCSH
Psychologists; College teachers; Johnson, Roosevelt--Interviews
Transcription
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Dr. Roosevelt Johnson
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Eden Lowinger
Date of interview: Not dated
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:06
SM: Got to keep double checking this too to make sure this is working. Dr. Johnson, thank you very much for taking time out of your busy schedule to meet with me today. What I am going to try to do here is asked a specific group of questions and these questions have also been asked to other interviewees. Some of these questions also might look like they are repetitive. But the questions are asked, [audio cuts] certainly, and hopefully, if you have already mentioned something earlier, then we move on to the next question. But the boomer generation and the people the (19)60s and the early (19)70s have often are [audio cuts] that during this juncture in time, often being criticized by conservatives, by people along Christian coalition and other groups as being the reason why we are having problems in today's society. You hear it all the time on the news, even some of the so-called moderate Democrats, when they are looking at the issues of the breakup of the American family, the increase the divorce rate, the drug, the drug problems in American society, the uncivil dialogue sometimes that happens between groups, a lack of listening between groups. Sometimes people are trying to put this all into a capsule and going right back to that (19)60s and early (19)70s. And it was because of that generation, and how they were reared and how they acted, is now they have transferred into, this into their kids, and could you comment on whether that is a fair accusation toward the generation of boomers made up of 60 million people?
01:35
RJ: I am always I am always cautious about stereotypical and gross generalizations in terms of a generation. However, I do think that there are certain prevailing motifs, cultural motifs that go on, there is no question about it. If we look at the major forces in during that era of say, post-Civil Rights, and then after the post-Civil Rights and the switch, in terms of say, our moving to political impetus, and they end the orientation, and the theories that have gone on- political orientation and theories that have gone along with the subsequent election of Richard Nixon, which tended to [inaudible] in my judgment signaled the prelude to the switch to conservative. So then, I think that we got some gradations there in terms of say, there are some in terms of say some of the people who have emerged from the (19)60s, the post-Civil Rights Era, and also the political shift to conservativism, I am not so sure it is almost 33 and a third, okay, so if you really think about it that way, it is almost 33 and a third. And then I guess, the fourth estate, and that is the medium, with respect to the impact that is has had, and increasing the impact that it has had specifically during that period of time, so then it, the history is fascinating. And I am not so sure, I am willing to say that there is a large core, is according to which societal institution that you are looking at, at any given time, but I think there is a, if you may, an overarching type of influence, and an overarching type of motif, and, and collective thought. So, we got to, we got a, we got a kind of a universal cognition that is going on, i.e. let us go back to the impact of the Fourth Estate in terms of the media, and the fact that the satellite was put us up there. And then CNN became such a potent force, what I see as a core lessons of perspective, even if you go beyond the borders of the United States, about certain issues that are happening all over the world, by virtue of the cyberspace and so forth, which is again, the link, I guess you could say is that is that the Civil Rights, post-Civil Rights and then the era of conservativism, and then what you have that in fact, keeps all of this in a network, is the cyberspace. And with respect to the fact that everybody is seeing the same type of the daily account of present history being recorded, it is definitely influencing how people are thinking. So the media and the people who are writing for the media, in my judgment, are the, are people who have found, who themselves are part of- who are boomers, and therefore they come from that perspective, in terms of their cognitions. There have beliefs about certain things, their worldview, their worldviews, are have, they have to- if we accept that socialization is a real process, and I believe it is- they have an insight, say, like, be influenced by what has happened to them in their nurturance years, that is a part of their identity. So consequently, they are constantly referring back to what they have learned to be reality, their constructive reality is in fact are very similar, but I think that you will still find that is not a discrete dichotomous either-or in terms of is the boomers against the, not being the boomers. There are people within the boomer generation who are very conservative, people within the boomer generation who are in fact modern in terms of their political views, ethical and moral perspectives and so forth. And there are people who are extremely liberal. Okay, so then we got, I think this gradation.
05:58
SM: Make sure that my tape here it is. In fact, because it broke, he has invited me over to his house before the Congress starts again.
06:07
RJ: Okay.
06:07
SM: Because I have gotten to know him. I- most of my friends are liberals, but [laughter] Congressman Weldon, and Senator Fred Thompson, the two that I really, I really like those two. So anyways, as a take-off of that question, what do you feel has been the impact of boomers on America? Has the impact in your eyes been positive or negative? Or is it too early to say what that impact is?
06:33
RJ: First, you have, I have to accept the position that is only positive and negative. And that, again, takes us to the dichotomous thinking, which is fueling, I think, psychologically, societal psychology, if you may, I think that is probably keeping the momentum more exaggerated than it really is. Again, I see gradations, I look for gradations. I do not look for discrete categories of the dichotomy of either all or nothing. And that is, that is a part of democracy. So democracy, the life blood, as Seymour Martin Lipset said, of democracy is conflict. So, then it definitely keeps the conflict going, but I do not know if it, in fact, gets into a continual healing process at the psychological level. Now, I also think that we cannot, in fact address this question you know, in terms of gain, I am saying before I could really respond to whether it is positive or negative, I had to work it through, because I also am very much aware that the conflict, and the either-or- liberal or conservative, negative or anti-positive- is being, is economically driven, is driven by the profit motive. We cannot incite leave that out of our society, that negative news is, in fact, it is a very, it sells very well, positive news obviously does not sell very well, because there is not any one of the leading newspapers in in the world that reports positive news, people immediately go to what is the most heinous that they can find. So then what I think is happening is that the econ- that the political economy has co-opted people into making us believe that we have an issue, I will say negative and positive, I think without a doubt, if you look at a certain category, and that is the demise of the infrastructure within the United States, I do believe- and by that I mean, the highways, the cities, the universities that are in fact, say getting ready for the babies of the boomers, they are now beginning to say that we cannot build new facilities, but we will be able to bring the people on campus and then offer them course by computer, and so forth out of their dorm rooms and so forth or allow them to take it at home, through for example, the internet and so forth and putting up let us say, modems on the campus, around the campus, even exterior modems and things of this nature where people can work on a site. Now, if you take a look at that, and if you hold on nostalgically to what once was, in terms of the negative impact, the negative impact is the meaning that we are giving to it. If, for example, we are saying that we think that the classroom should be a-whereby there is a bonding between the professor and the youngsters or the professors and the graduate students- I do believe that should occur. But now if you think about the boomers being driven by the profit motive, which is you know, with a common vernacular and the patois, the bottom line, cut to the chase all of this language that in fact being developed by various and sundry economic systems, you say, macro and economically, the macroeconomic, the NSA and micro economic terminology that are used for social situation. So, people are being reduced in terms of downsides and outsides and read, outsourcing and things of this nature, the boomers by virtue of their being in leadership role, they have now begun to-to use these paradigms to deal with people. Okay? Now, if these paradigms continue to erode the infrastructure, and especially the moralistic infrastructure of the universal values, then we got to say it is negative. But when we in fact, say, like, take a look at that they can began to cause people, the pendulum to swing back toward the center, and people, to the extent can recognize that the boomers were the impetus for seeing swinging back toward the center, then probably serendipitously, the boomers are serving us a purpose to gain our right frame of mind on this, starting a new collective dialogue within our collective heads. Is this good? We are now beginning to ask these questions.
11:07
SM: This leads into my next question, because now we are talking about the children of boomers, which are, which are already on college campuses. And we will be [inaudible], you talk about the differences within the boomers, you know, we talked about the classification for (19)46 to (19)64, boomers. Well, I see even within the university when I am working with administrators who were still classified as boomers, they have not the [inaudible] knowledge of the impact of the Civil Rights movement, or what the war was all about back then, because they were a little bit too young. So, I sense that there is even strong divisions, like you said, there is conservatives and liberals. There is-
11:42
RJ: Within the boomers.
11:43
SM: Yeah. And the fact is that, you know, it is hard to classify over an 18-year period that these are the boomers, which is what society says we are doing something right. But can today- can today's generation learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? So this question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s, as a period of activism, a period that were students, where people got [inaudible] and single minded issues, because there were big issues then. A lot of big issues where young people can get involved in. So many of these same issues remain, there are new ones. And the lessons of the past are either not taught in the schools or never discussed between the parents, which is the boomer parent and the kid. Please give your thoughts on the issues and boomers lives and how they can have an impact on students today. And I say this only because I, in my working relationship with students, I see two distinct directions that they go in terms of people of my age. boomers. Number one, they look upon that period as an era of nostalgia, saying, "I wish I could have lived them. It was such an exciting time. I mean, people were involved in Civil Rights movement, they were involved in the protests against the war, the environmental movement, women's liberation came about all but all of it seems like the movements and Native American movement, all of them seem to be around [inaudible] around the time when you were young, when you were in college, I wish I could live there." And others the other extreme, where students will say, “I am sick of hearing it, you are living in us nostalgic period. This is (19)96. It is not (19)68 or (19)69 anymore. And so, I am tired of hearing about it, we have our own lives, we have our own issues, but then we do not have any big issues, but I want to get a job I want to get through school." And so, they do not have the big issues. But they do have their own individual issues, which is getting, getting a degree and getting a job. And in some respects, we cannot always talk about all the today's young people that are going to college there is a lot of them going to trade school. So, what I am trying to say is, are the boomers. And are the boomers really talking about their experiences with their kids? Are they sharing what they went through, are they sharing the- those important issues of that time? And some still remained today, but it is as if they do not among the other young people. So I just want to know what your thoughts are. If the boomers are really being good parents, are they sharing what transpired and they were young? And in some respects are the generation X really listening?
14:09
RJ: Well, I am not so sure that the boomers are being good parents if you use the criterion of the pre-boomer period, okay, anti-boomer period there, meaning that if I look at- and I am a boomer, all right- and if I look at the relationship that my mother and father had with me, it was very impersonal. Or if I look at what I know, my peers say, who themselves were not supposed to make it at Southern Illinois University, for example, first generation college students out of predominantly Black schools, high schools and so forth. Well we got there and found out that we had better for example, communication skills as far as the written word was concerned that many of our I would say white counterparts who came out of great high schools of Northern Illinois and Evanston, Illinois and places of this nature, right. So then it got around big university town. So our parents had prepared to pass the baton onto us. So then we got to look at the multicultural and the multiracial groups of boomers as well. But I fortunately have an opportunity through the last over almost 30 years of teaching both Black and whites and in terms of, say, graduate school, so I have had an opportunity to make some assessments on it. And from what I see is that at some point in time, and I like to think of this boomer generation as the transitory generation too, they have seen they saw the transition, African Americans, for example, from Jim Crowism to public accommodation, whereby they did not have it. So that they know what, for example, a Jim Crow is, and they know what it means to be excluded. So, they can recognize inclusion very, I mean, very well, and they can recognize exclusion very well. But the babies of the boomers are not capable of doing this, Black or white. It has been superficially presented to them through the media, it is always on the cusp, it is never as intense as it is because the boomers experienced this. Okay, the boomers experienced the transition of going from lack of civil rights to the civil rights struggle to the fact that Johnson signed the 1965 Civil Rights bill. Okay, so consequently, they saw the transition. And therefore, they are dealing with reality is based upon a cognitive set that they have seen before, during the process, and subsequent to the change. So then they deal with impasse, and for those who have not. And on the other side of the reality construction, the parents, some of them actually got further away from their anti-boomer parent- I will say morality, and they therefore began to have technocracy, technocracy and post modernity in terms of their perspective on how they deal with their children, okay, so then therefore, they-they stay a distance from them, they do not have interpersonal relationships with them, they allow the professional to do the rearing, they will allow the-the they allow the media to do the rearing, and the peer group to do the rea- the rearing. What I have found, therefore, is that on the other end of that, and in between, there is a group that is trying to hold on, which the children do resist, I see a lot of those in therapy, whether that child is in fact white or Black, whether that child is rich or poor, liberal or conservative, they try to resist that interpersonal, because, say involvement, where that person who was involved in the (19)60s tries to in fact interface and deal with and rear that child with that experiential input in there, some of the children do resist to that. Some of the children do not. Now, it is therefore, a matter I guess you can say, of the idiosyncratic way in which the children themselves- and that is what we got to be very careful about- and that is each-each individual has an idiosyncratic child does of the boomer, has an idiosyncratic meaning that he or she will get to the world. Now what we got to do is base that upon it is not right or wrong is rational, or is it is reality. So, we in fact, deal with, whether it is rational, what the child is doing and believing, or whether or not it is a reality, what the child is doing, then we do not worry so much about behavior as we do about cognition. And that is where we got to begin to get the focus. And that is, is the self-hurting a self-defeating in terms of some greater moralistic, cosmos type of perspective, or is it in fact a self-helping, we got to, in fact, make that decision discernment. I go back to the university and college, universities and colleges are in fact beginning to acknowledge that that was something good about the whole notion of the hands-on in theory into practice, because of the of the of the, I guess you can say, the mushrooming of outreach concepts in every major college and university. So then, in that regard, if you take a look, now, everybody has a community clinic, or everybody has some type of outreach program, or some thrust to outreach and reaching out into the community in their curricula. And in fact, the business world is now saying that they want to buy into that. So, then that is that activism of the six.
19:44
SM: Yeah, we have a social work chair, who has raised kids and one is going to Spelman College right now in Atlanta and one is going to Howard- they are twins, and she has one coming up. Her husband is a judge in Philadelphia, and he is also on the board of trustees and interviewees. This [inaudible] West Chester University. And I asked her point-blank last year is that a general discussion if she has ever sat down and talked to her kids about what it was like to be at Howard in the (19)60s where she graduated? She said, "No." She said, "My kids have got enough problems today, with the problems of drugs, dealing with all the other issues of the day, why burden them with what-what it was like when I was young," I am sure they discuss some things. But-
20:26
RJ: But the issue is, would it have been a burden that that actually is cultivating another type of skill. In my judgment, now see I do not see that as a burden, she is assuming that the child is a victim.
20:38
SM: I am going to go in depth with her on that, cause she does not realize I am going to bring this up when we-we are doing the interview. But she, she is the chair of our social work department, Mit Joyner. She is a dynamic professor whose students love her. And I she is one of my close friends at the school. But the fact that that statement really shocked me and so during the interview is not going to be the beginning, when I am going to just interject my question and do a little more definition there. Because she might explain why. Again, this might be repetitive here, if you were describe the youth in (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe the qualities you most admire and the qualities you least admire. If you were to just give a couple of adjectives of the things that you have most admired about them. What would they be and some of the things you least admire?
21:19
RJ: Their sense of dedication, they were dedicated. They were in fact, say like, inquisitive. They were courageous. Okay. They were well, they were willing to take risk. They were flexible. Most of them on college campus. And now you say the youth, if I was talking about high school, it would be an, and I was associated with an upward bound program, then but as well, and they were forward looking, they were without anxiety, they had a sense of hope. Okay, because subsequent to the Civil Right when the government provided to them a [inaudible] debt for hope, of hope, okay. And therefore, by virtue of the, even though the [inaudible] never really had the money, the concept was empower- psychologically empowering. The concept of, of the war on poverty was-was the was psychologically empowering. Now, I guess, therefore, the opposite would be some of the things I would have to say that in retrospect, retrospect, I would say that maybe that the youth were gullible, and maybe they went, because I believe that now, the amount of depression that I see, the amount of anxiety and type attacks and, and the amount of panic attacks that I see in people and so forth, and the fear that they have in trying to communicate with their children, all of these things probably instilled in them a lack of sense of hope, which is the origin of depression is when that when that hope turns into that is a loss, when one begins to lose that hope, then one begins to have a collective depression that is going on. Okay. So then, and when I- oh, and then I guess, in the [inaudible], this is in retrospect, I thought it was exciting then. But the freedom that they had in terms of not only in terms of relationships, and even very intimate relationship, the sense of a lack of commitment, though. However, the-the lack of commitment with respect to marriage, the lack of commitment with respect to promiscuous behavior, okay. And promiscuous thought patterns. Obviously, they were not that- I did not like the fact that they did get away from moralistic principles, I guess, it used to be that I did not like that about that group of children, which in fact then probably is causing, and in the, right now, some of the sense of the lack of identity that they obviously had when they thought about what they were doing. And now I believe that their parenting skills are actually fostering a sense of lack of identity in the babies of the boomers.
24:21
SM: Interesting observation, getting off the general questions here, because several people that I have spoken to have said when you talked about the boomer generation, especially in the area of the Civil Rights movement, you cannot even talk about boomers, they were too young. To talk, the fact that boomers were born (19)46 And a lot of the things that were in the Civil Rights movement in the mid (19)50s, late (19)50s, early (19)60s, they did not even- they were not old enough to really be involved, but certainly they were influenced as they got older in to the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. So, I have had several comments, say in stating that, if you talk about the boomers, you cannot talk about them really having hardly any; the effect on the Civil Rights movement, even the antiwar movement on college campuses, the majority of them were a lot of the older graduate students, I remember-
25:10
RJ: If we take now, we are saying (19)46 to (19)60, right? Now-
25:14
SM: [inaudible] those are people who were born between (19)46 and (19)64.
25:17
RJ: Okay, well, between (19)46 and (19)64. All right now-
25:20
SM: Bill Clinton's like, he is just nearing-
25:22
RJ: He is a boomer.
25:23
SM: 50.
25:23
RJ: Okay, right.
25:23
SM: That group is just turning 50 this year.
25:25
RJ: Right, I see what you are saying. Right. Now, on the other hand, if you think okay, (19)40, if you take (19)46 now, and they, I believe those people have a lot of- see the Civil Rights movement, actually, moved, moved from public accommodation against [inaudible]. I believe that the Vietnam War resistance movement, if you may, was an aspect of Civil Rights. And I think it prompted many of the demonstrations, the rallies the whole bit. Okay. The fact that Muhammad I believe spoke out in about (19)64, (19)65. Again, (19)65 at (19)64, no (19)63. He spoke out about (19)63 and (19)64, (19)64, when he spoke out and said about his being refusing to go to Vietnam, if I am not mistaken. (19)64, (19)65. Okay, now it will you think about that, that had an aspect of the Civil Rights movement. Okay, so I guess Muhammad Ali would have been considered a boomer, right? Yeah, he was. He is about 52 now, something like that. 50, or 50-50 or 51, something like that. Okay, well, anyway, he would have been considered that- he had a tremendous impact, the Black Panther Party, Huey Newton, okay. Let us say, Eldridge Cleaver. They had a heck of an impact upon the Civil Rights movement in the late (19)70s. I mean, the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Okay, because they have moved from the feeling that for example, as a matter of fact, if the Panthers were around right now, they will be considered terrorists. Okay. It is no question about it, okay. If you look at the Democrats who have, you know, Students for a Democratic Society, and people like that at Berkeley, for all intents and purposes, that was (19)70, they had an impact on legislation in Congress, the (19)68 Civil- I mean, (19)68 convention in Chicago, okay. With respect to what Mayor Daley did, and how he controlled that particular, that was all about Civil Rights. It actually put law enforcement under the microscope, it began to make people start thinking about how you are going to contain crowds and not contain crowd. Okay, you have people in terms of the Hun- the Hungarian, say invasion and so forth. That was (19)63, no it was (19)66 (19)67. Okay, if I am not mistaken, not Hungarian.
27:59
SM: Poland.
27:59
RJ: Poland, okay.
28:00
SM: That was (19)68.
28:01
RJ: Yeah, (19)68.
28:02
SM: Alexander Dubček.
28:03
RJ: There you go. And yeah, okay. If you take a look at that, for example, then you had students on college campuses reacting against that, okay, and so forth, that what happened at Kent State in 1970, had a tremendous impact upon influencing policy. Okay, those, and when those white children got killed in their [inaudible]. Now, if you take a look at it, all of those youngsters were actually born since 19- that participated in that were in fact born since that period, (19)46.
28:35
SM: You are right [inaudible] the observations that I am getting so far. I am the boomers. For example, when you talk about what is the question I have coming up here, [inaudible] that question I asked with respect to the Vietnam War. What is the impact of boomers on that war with respect to ending it? Now, this is a commentary and your thoughts are very important here. I have had one person who said, "That is ridiculous. They did not end the war. The people that end- Richard Nixon ended the war" and [crosstalk] conservative, okay-
29:05
RJ: Yeah-yeah.
29:06
SM: Then I got the other extreme saying, and this is where I interviewed Jack Smith of ABC news a couple of days ago when I was down here. And then of course, he was in Vietnam. And he said that, "No, the college students did not end the war." One end of the war was the middle class Americans who saw the kid who's caught saw their sons coming home from Vietnam. And when-when Middle America saw that the war was bringing, was killing people and everything, they made the decision that they were against the war and they influenced their politicians. And that is why you saw the Frank Churches of the world who would not get on the bandwagon with the extremists on college campuses. Fear of not only losing his senate position in Idaho, but so what-what are your thoughts in terms of the boomers and their impact on the on those two movements, particularly on the ending of the Vietnam War, number one, and then their-their important role or not so important role in the Civil Rights movement. Now, you mentioned the Black Panthers, but in terminology, boomers. That is what I am trying to get at here and keep in mind you we are talking 60 million people here, of which some of the books they only about 15 percent were ever active anyways, in any kind of activism during this
30:21
RJ: Oh, look let me tell you what, I have, they had a tremendous impact upon influencing the Civil Rights movement. Because if you think about it, the Birmingham church bombings, which were in the (19)60s, those children that were killed for our exam- for example, they were boomers as well as the children who demonstrated. You see what I mean, about the policies, in terms of and who followed Mrs. Parks. They were not they were not your typical college student, but they affected public opinion. For example, many Gene Smith, and let us say, Donald Green, and those people who went to Central High School, for all intents and purposes, okay, so [audio cuts] [inaudible] The Supreme Court decision has been rendered, and everything, which is another major impact- is it on?
31:12
SM: Yep.
31:12
RJ: Okay. Here is another major impact. See, some of this was actually, it was actually subsequent to, that was an era there were a lot of young Black people who were in fact, boomers. And who were born right, even right, the right in that same era there. Okay, in terms of [inaudible] to (19)60, that the child in terms of whom Brown versus the Board was in fact, she was 26 or 27 years of age, you see, so then, and that was not- that was of international prominence, that decision will go down. But as in the famous canons of jurisprudence, forever Brown versus the Board of Education, that was a boomer child. Okay, that was at the center of that whole controversy. I mean, all that was a major Civil Rights decision was changed. It was it was the moral equivalent to the ending of Apartheid in South Africa. And a boomer child actually created that. Okay, now, and then if you take a look at, they had the [inaudible] boomers. Another thing in terms of Civil Rights movement. [Michael] Schwerner and [Andrew] Goodman, and, and [James] Chaney, the three civil rights mov- workers that were killed in Mississippi, and I think it was (19)63 or (19)64. Okay.
32:39
SM: (19)64.
32:40
RJ: Okay, fine. Now, they were boomers. They were in fact, they were not. They were like, I think what 18, 19 and 20 or something like that? They just barely, just barely missed it maybe, but for all intents and purposes, but here they were was showing coalitions at that time. And they were fighting, and that was a national prominent international peace that had international media down that end, and now just goes right on up to this the Vietnam War. While I believe that the mothers and the middle class really did, maybe they were the ones who wrote the letter, the boomers were the conscience, i.e. Bill Clinton, okay, that type of thing. And the boomers did not want to serve in that war. Okay, the boomers were trying to do everything they could to get-get school status of get out of the country, because they did not want to go to Vietnam. Okay, so consequently- and that was generally a draft dodger, new lexicons, you see what I mean, we are actually developed a new lingo, and that type of thing, right. And so, then that particular say, impact, the media did not focus on the middle class, because that was very unamerican. But the media did not focus on Kent State, they did focus on Berkeley, it did focus on, say, University of say New York, did focus on that, did focus on Michigan State, you see, and this type of thing, and all of the Black schools in the south, it focused on that. So then and about their opposition to the war, and actually the boomers highlighted another thing that, that when certain moral issues, are brought up, that Black students and white students coalesce even in historically Black schools and-and predominantly white school, around the immorality of something because in Jackson State in the same year, the same month that in fact, in Jackson, Mississippi, that there were, say nine or so students killed at Kent State, there were also the troops fired and killed on five or six Black students at Jackson.
34:43
SM: Right, in fact there were four killed at Kent State and I thought a few wounded and then there were two killed Jackson State.
34:49
RJ: Yeah.
34:49
SM: And I still remember the fact that it is a very sensitive issue that when you started talking about what happened in (19)70, you better talk about both schools.
34:56
RJ: That is right.
34:57
SM: And then the media has a tendency, and I know they did an article on this in the Chronicle of Higher Education. It was in the last couple of years, when they were celebrating past anniversaries that this this year, they made absolutely sure that the anniversaries of both of these tragic events were recovered because the-
35:14
RJ: So, the media are being influenced by the boomers too making and raising these moral issues. Okay, so no question about.
35:23
SM: Yeah, how do you respond to a person who might say a Vietnam veteran will say, "Well, you are only talking about the elites here. You are talking about those people, “Whether they are African American or white students, or Latino students who went to college, you are talking about the elites here, you are not talking about the rest of America of the boomers who never went to college, which is still the majority, the boomers who went off to war in Vietnam and never got a college degree, which was probably the majority. So how can you define that group of boomers?
35:54
RJ: That group of boomers as the one that were you, the most healing has to take place. Because they were in the fighting units in Vietnam, okay. And that type of line, the [inaudible] Eagles and the Marine Corps and that type of thing. Now, let me tell you, and they were also the labor force that geared up after Chevrolet started making shells in St. Louis, in the (19), let us say (19)65 to (19)70, they open up shell plants, and many of your major car producers went into developing, you know, shells for artillery, and so forth. Now, they-they did that, they were the ones that were doing the heavy-duty operation, or they were on the front line. Now, they, therefore when they came back, and also I think they are the most troubled Black and white, because they still are I still have men in my classes now who fight the battle of Vietnam almost on every issue that comes up in that particular classroom. And these are not the elite. These are students who are not supposed to even made it to college. But then let us go back to in terms of the drug problem. The drug problem is, I think, significantly impacted on the-the guy on the street, and right immediately subsequent to many of the GIs coming back from Vietnam, they were hooked. They stayed they state, I have had them in therapy and so forth. I am not talking about college students, they had to, in fact, use that to anesthetize themselves and the availability of it, they even talk about that they knew it was pretty much a national policy that they could get as much Vietnam, I mean, say heroin and get as much marijuana as they wanted to. The family, Agent Orange affected the middle class. Okay, that and it is still affecting the middle class, okay, in terms of that, and so even now, one of the things that is causing the prevention of that healing is that these issues have not been resolved. And we got another issue of that, where some of the babies of the boomers are experiencing the same thing with respect to the Desert Storm syndrome. Okay, so then and these are not college students. This is the run of the mill GI who is at Fort [inaudible].
38:15
SM: So, when you again, a lot of my questions that are being taken off from some of the other interviewees really been reflected from a [inaudible]. So when a person who is college educated, but certainly Vietnam says that the ending of the war in Vietnam that was not because of what was happening on college campuses, is what was happening away from the college campuses, but the media portrayed it and everything-
38:38
RJ: The media was not going to go down on those college campuses. You see what I mean? It was not going to go down there. Think about that. As another thing, if you think about it, the Kerner Report, the Kerner Report documents all of this with the US, you familiar with that, right? And the US commission on riots and civil disobedience, which came out in (19)68, okay, when it came out, it documented all of it. What happened in Detroit was a lot of frustration in terms of the Boomers who were acting up the. What happened in in Watts, that were, okay, the-the lack of civil and legal recourse that were available to people, okay, all of these types of things that that unrest and so forth, and the still oppressive nature. But see, now get ready for this, the media then was getting ready to turn a corner. So what the media did, they even staged some things that were not true. The media had begun to recognize them. Remember I said early on an interview, that the media has been the cohesive glue that networks around all of this stuff together. And the media has changed and has been extremely, let us say vocal and in pointing this out, everybody knows that nobody likes to see little Black- little white girls get killed on college campuses. Okay, so consequently, you cannot say it was made a big deal. Now I will believe that Kent State was the most significant impetus in changing policy about the Civil- about the Vietnam war than any single incident.
40:19
SM: You are [inaudible] right on that one, because I can remember that even when I was a graduate student at Ohio State back and (19)71 and (19)72. By (19)73, [inaudible] changing-
40:31
RJ: That is right.
40:32
SM: The movement just [breath to indicate vanishing]
40:34
RJ: [inaudible] got elected, a Democrat, got elected governor for four years-
40:38
SM: Oh right, and then they voted the other guy back in.
40:40
RJ: And voted Rhodes back in.
40:41
SM: I know.
40:41
RJ: You see what I mean? That saying that.
40:43
SM: Amazing.
40:44
RJ: Yes, it was amazing, was not it? But again, and that conservative impetus has been with us, we have had only two Democratic presidents since then. And one of them was suspect, Jimmy Carter's suspect of having been a Democrat, okay, because of his very conservative policies. So then since that time, we have only had one a Democratic president since that time, in terms of a liberal elite, and of course, now history showing us that-that [inaudible] is not liberal.
41:12
SM: Very middle of the road.
41:13
RJ: That is exactly right. So then we see that. So then that era hit in there, and now who is keeping him in? The boomers, therefore, you would have to say a significant number of the boomers are in fact, keeping him in there, because that means then keeping him in keeping that-that conservative bent and look at this, there- the Newt Gingrich's and so on, and so forth. But I understand and that is what we got to do. But there is hope. The hope is, that is not either or, we got people all up and down the spectrum there in terms of say, their political bent. But in the final analysis, we would have to say that people made a fundamental shift in their, in their worldview, and that worldview became that we, that you must get, in effect, the bottom line in materialism. And I think that had to do again, with the impetus of the media, the media has infused that, the media is about selling. The media is not about in fact, say doing anything, but selling and getting people to buy. So then therefore, and as people saw, people want it. And therefore now they look at the conservative bent as having more money in my pocket and the liberal bent as taking money away from me and giving to someone else. So we went back to our media induced social Darwinists. You got to be more fit than the other person. And the way that you be more fit than the other person is the one that in fact, has all the marbles, who at the end of the game wins.
42:51
SM: Yeah, it is like, one of the terms that was used, I can remember when I was in college, and I was really proud of it is that we are the most unique generation in American history, we are going to change the world. We are going to make sure that everybody is equal, that racism is going to end. Of course, the sexism issue was something that was growing too with the women's, but it was the concept of equality, we cared about others, it was hopefully others beyond ourselves, yet, you had the enigma or the what some people might call hypocrisy of a slogan that was used in that time, and I can remember having it on my door at Ohio State University in Jones Tower-
43:32
RJ: Were you part of the problem or [inaudible]
43:34
SM: No, it was the Peter Max posters that were all over Ohio State at that time. And the slogan was "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance, we should come together, it will be beautiful." And that, that if you say that then some people will say, well, the boomers were no different than any other generation. They are into making money that you saw what happened in the (19)70s or the late (19)70s. And the (19)80s the "me" generation they were really only into "me," they were they were very selfish, making money getting a job, they were no different than any other group. This business about idealism and being different is a bunch of malarkey. So, I know that I have not- I still have the same ideals but I am kind of wondering if I am an out- if I am an outcast. Because money-
44:19
RJ: Good. If you an outlier, good.
44:20
SM: Money is money is not the most, never has been the most important thing in my life. And in but to some people it is.
44:27
RJ: Yes, it is, a whole lot of people.
44:29
SM: And that is what they say that the boomers as a whole were no different than any other group. They just wanted to raise families, make a lot of money have a car and a couple of cars and the whole works. What are your thoughts on the boomers being at that time saying that they are the most unique generation in American history?
44:43
RJ: I think they sold; I think a significant number of them sold out. Okay. And sold out to their, their principles of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Okay, and but I understand it and I can accept it because I have a fairly decent understanding of the process of socialization, and that is in terms of the conformity in the normal curve, okay in a normal distribution, and that most of the people began to follow what was being infused into them. We started to invite say, like, choose our majors based upon job prospects on college campus, we were not choosing our majors based upon what we wanted to do. And when you talk to people about what they what they were going to major in when they want to go to college, they said I want to I want to major in and probably businesses or something, something that is going to make me an awful lot of money, okay. They did not think about like, if you has asked people 30 years before then. And people would have said, "Well, I want to be a teacher," or "I want to be a social worker," or "I want to be an engineer," okay, something like-they did not want to be, they had to do what was going to make them a lot of money. So they were in fights, they coopted. And consequently, and I noticed that where else who logically would have believed that a whole institution that financed the home of boomer parents, the parents of boomers would have allowed without major hysteric the savings and loan association to be robbed completely dry. And then accept that the Resolution Trust arbitrarily now takes out their checks every month, 2 to $3, from every American who has a checking account or savings account, to pay for the savings and loan institution that was robbed, literally dry, to in fact, say pay for the money that was stolen from people and many people never got. But that was not a public outcry. Because the-the moral ethical belief made a tremendous shift to that whole notion of if you can get away of the 11th commandment is, do not get caught. That is where we are now. And that is the moral principle that we are operating on that now, I do not like that about the boomers. Okay, because now is nobody- I had an Iranian who worked for me about, oh, 10 years ago. And he said, you know, America is a funny place. Nobody cares what you do. Nobody is concerned about what your profession is or what you do. Everybody is concerned about whether or not you make a lot of money in it. Okay, and that is true. Nobody cares if you own like waste management now waste management company, if you will, in fact, waste management, which is just a garbage man in my in my here generation. If you waste management, you are going to be filthy rich, because that is a big issue now but that is all people concerned about, "Can I make money at it?" So therefore, like the youngsters who are in adult right now, and what we got ourselves to really think about this, now, the papers just reported the other day that, for example, drug abuse it uses up among the children of boomers significantly, okay, the drug policy office out of the office of the White House which ascended politically to a cabinet level position was in fact wiped out with the staff. That is why Lee Brown left and went back to Rice University. As a professor, he got a chair because he saw that Clinton was not doing anything.
48:34
SM: Down to 20 people, was not it?
48:35
RJ: Down to 20.
48:36
SM: 120 to 20.
48:37
RJ: That and no budget. They just had to put, they were coordinating and everybody else, it was nothing by the show and tell position. So then that goes along with the moral and ethical hierarchy that we have which the boom- now, the boomers are very tolerant of immorality. Because you got to just come to grips with that. The babies of boomers and the boomers are very tolerant of immorality, and they lack- the babies of boomers particularly, they do not have that work ethic that we had, that many of the boomers had or if you may the post-boomers, anti-boomers had. Okay, the generation the anti-boomers had, but they do not have that same work ethic. They want to make a fast buck at any way that they possibly can.
49:23
SM: Can you talk about the drug scene that the, what was happening in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, a Timothy Leary what his famous slogan there, "tune in to turn on turn out" or whatever it was. He said, so many of the boomers did that that they were kind of lacks. And so, the parents or the boomers today will say you cannot be judging us and our usage of drugs look at what your generation did, you think there is something?
49:49
RJ: I think there is a tolerance. You know, like, I see I see parents who know that their children are into drugs, and there is a certain resignation. That is going to happen. And it is not that they are alarmed about it like the parents of boomers would have been, they, the boomer parent is "I know what is going to happen." And "Well, my son and my daughter has a drug problem." And they kind of look upon it as a process through which they are going, they are going to go, and stages through which they are going to go. They just accept that as almost a rite of passage now. I do not see parent, I do not see most parents saying that, "Oh, Lord, I do not want my child to get into dru- Oh, my goodness, he is into drug or what have you. Well, you know, we are working with them and we are willing to spend $25,000, from the insurance company to send him or her for somewhere to dry out for 20, for 10 weeks or so or something like." They just for the middle class people, but in terms of for the less than middle class people, they see it as the one opportunity for making that buck.
51:00
SM: So that was in the intersection. That is why when you are looking at all of these issues, you just cannot just look at the issue [inaudible], you got to look at the economy again. You know, we have kind of the big sphere, that vision really causes these problems. Have you changed your opinion at all, say when I was a student at Ohio State University in (19)72, and in (19)96, and you change your opinions and all over the last 25 years toward boomers, you have taught a lot of students when you were fairly young professor when I had you I know back in the 28 or 29 it was [inaudible] Yeah. And you saw those students who were boomers and you saw many other boomers in the next 5 to 10 years that followed, and then you have also had the people of today. What are your thoughts on, I guess from-from a professor's point of view, you have seen them. You have seen them in class, but now students of all colors- what is your analysis of this these people? Have most of your students for example, have you been proud of most of your students? Have they gone on and lived up to the concept of you know, going on to education and making a career and what are your just your overall thoughts?
52:13
RJ: Ones that- I keep in contact with a with a number of them. And I have seen, it is a trend that most of them who thought they were going to work on college campuses and schools and things of this nature, social service types of job, use those positions to go into working with Xerox starting up their own consultancy firms moving into politics and things of this nature. And I do believe it has been power and money driven. Okay, I do not think that it has been altruistically driven, okay. As, now that is, that is one thing. I think it is still money and power driven.
53:03
SM: That is got to disappoint you, does not it? When you-
53:06
RJ: Well-
53:07
SM: Because when you teach in class, you are trying to extreme opposite.
53:10
RJ: Yes. But here is what I say. I think I understand reasonably well the whole socialization process. So it pleases me when I see someone like well, you remember Mac Stewart?
53:10
SM: Yes.
53:11
RJ: Okay. Now Mac, from what I heard is still at Ohio State is he is still working in student- well in University College as Assistant Dean, but I know other people who came through like him, who moved out and went in this- take Alex Moore. Alex got his degree and say, Student Personnel Administration, his PhD but went and started to work for boarding company in Switzerland. Last I heard he is in Ohio back in the international headquarters, in Columbus working for them. Now, if you take Carl Harshman, remember Carl Harshman?
54:00
SM: He was stocky.
54:01
RJ: Yes.
54:02
SM: Big stocky guy.
54:03
RJ: Yeah, well Carl Harshman has now an international consultancy firm and is a millionaire, and lives in a big exclusive area, and I am in touch with him frequently, you know. Carl it works in transitioning Japanese well I will say American owned say factories and what have you, for Japanese owned businesses. And he is coordinating that whole process of training workforces to move into say, for example, new products and everything with a big staff. He loves higher education and all that all together after working [inaudible] professor, and in fact, say like a vice president, but for Academic Affairs, at St. Louis University, and that is what he is doing. But I understand that okay, I understand it. It does not really disappoint me, I think because again, I am not so sure that some of these people, or Felicia Gaston got- do you remember Felicia? She got her, she went to [inaudible] got her degree, went to Ohio State got in student personnel and she has been with Xerox now almost 20 years. This stuff you see, I mean, and went way up the ladder to a regional vice president or something like that. Okay, so then it but that was the trend of boomers and a- the babies. Well, let us put it like this now. The babies are boomers’ children I am seeing in therapy now. Okay, they are angry as hell. The number one target of my therapy that I work with now is anger management and disruptive behavior. Okay, if they in fact are presenting as depressed or presenting as, say, with panic disorders or attention deficit hyperactive disorder, the one thing you can count on is that they are violent and angry. Okay, it does not matter what the babies are boomers now we are talking about the ones that are getting ready to go to college now. Okay, that those will be the babies of boomers. Right?
56:02
SM: Right.
56:02
RJ: Okay, so now they are in fact, they are typically identify as- white or Black- by their being extremely insensitive, object relationship oriented, not in terms of say human, but things. That is what I see now.
56:21
SM: Are they mad at their parents?
56:22
RJ: They are mad they would- some of them do not even know what that, but a lot of them are very mad. I have one anger management group on Saturday morning. And it runs the gamut from professional parent boomers or babies of professional parents to just the working mother. Okay, and the literature reports the same thing. And they are mad in terms of the idiographic, the specific- person specific ang- manage, say, anger, focus. The parents are very frequently a target of it. When you talk about nomographic, general nomothetic type of measures for them, they are it may run the gamut all the way from being angry about their future, to being angry about, say, for example, let us say about anger producing situations that are about getting along with peers. You see what I mean, provocation about getting along with peers, provocations about position- people in positions of authority, you know, they have just, have this profound sense. It is almost like it is a latent sense of jealousy that comes out in abject violence.
57:32
SM: Wow.
57:33
RJ: Okay, now, those are the those are the babies of boomers. And what is his name? Devin Bakker out at Cal- out of Colorado State University, he has found he has- he said, for example, that a co-presenting problem was generally now that is found with most people in therapy, [phone rings] whether it is depression or anxiety, or whatever, it is the issue of anger. Now, you have to have all the irrespective of where you go, there are anger issues in these schools that is tremendous. Getting back to the media, and getting back to the lack of nurturing types of parents that I am finding, okay.
58:17
SM: Which could be directly related to some of the qualities of the boomers so lack of commitment.
58:21
RJ: And, and the fact that the parenting role is unfair, see, they cognitively understand that "My dad is not here, he is not making money," or "My mom is not here, she is making money" and this type of thing. Or "My dad's not here, because, for example, my mom was doing her own thing, and she just got pregnant with me and there is no dad here." Or "My mom told my dad, I am you are going to keep me and I am going on about my way," or "I do not know who my dad is, I do not know who my mom is," or the grandmothers are raising the pre the parents of boomers are playing a significant role in raising the babies of boomers.
59:00
SM: I am seeing that too.
59:02
RJ: Yeah.
59:04
SM: It is uh-
59:05
RJ: Well, that is what I am saying that, for example, I think it is identity. It is an identity issue. And then we say we take it in targeted like that, then that means that we got to give them a sense of purpose.
59:19
SM: If you were to just say in they were the most unique generation, would you say they were most unique or they are no different than any other?
59:25
RJ: I do not think they really have that much different than any other in terms of the prolonged history in now and historical analysis. During this, this constricted contemporary, and I would almost have to say from the Industrial Revolution up to this cyberspace revolution or generation, I would say that they were adapting and are adapting to the way in which this unplanned let us say, ambience, in a global perspective, if you may wish the cyberspace is brought about, they are just inside being a part of that. So if you were to take the agrarian to the adult industrial and the industrial to the atomic and the atomic to the cybernetic, and if you were to take that, that group there from-from the what you will we just so happen to call it the boomers because, hey, what about if you made the Western expansionist if we want to do that, that was the whole movement that moved from go west young man, the [inaudible] concept from the agrarian to the industrial. So then you see, when we think about that, we could have called them something but we did not have the hook to put that on that the media gave us for the boomers that it has, and we did not have [inaudible] and we did not have other sociolog- sociologists, like that you see, and Max Weber, to have come by and given us these types of concepts to deal with. You see, so then that is what the conceptual incarceration we are in we are in fact, incarcerated in that concept.
1:01:03
SM: Good point. We are coming toward the end of this tape here. And then I am going to- we have another 30 minutes.
1:01:07
RJ: Yeah. Okay.
1:01:08
SM: Because of the um, we are going to get into some questions on Vietnam right now. You, I have been to the Vietnam Memorial three years ago now, I come down every Memorial Day now. I feel it is important for me to be there. I am trying to get a sense especially involved in this project, whether healing has really taken place, not only within the Vietnam [inaudible] population, but in the nation itself. Jan Scruggs wrote a book in 1982, the person who put together the Vietnam memorial, called To Heal a Nation. And so, I have looked at that I read that and a tremendous effort in terms of creating a non-political entity, where people can come and reflect it is the whole, you have been there, you have seen, the impact has on everybody, everybody, it affects them differently. They reflect them in some respects, as Jackson has said, they all reflect in somewhat of a different way, when they look at that wall. Their own- do you feel that the boomers are a generation that is still having problems with healing. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial did a great job of the veterans in some respects and families of veterans but do you [audio cuts]. Okay, here we go.
1:02:19
RJ: As I was saying that it may be in terms of why they were so inactive, is because if their parents were wealthy enough to give it give them, they were given everything they took so much for grant- they have been taken so much for granted. And if they were on if they were not, the social welfare system, gave them everything that they wanted, or they have insight, learned to deal with deviant ways of coping in society, that they are experts in dealing in deviancy. Think about it, you know, like, from the drug thing, to the prostitution, to the violence, to the gang banging and all of this stuff. These are deviant ways of coping with their pressures. To just simply actually-actually acquiesce to-to, to being a failure, to acquiesce being a failure is actually a deep deviant coping mechanism. [audio cuts]
1:03:32
SM: We just have to check on that, because your experience with [inaudible]. This might be seen- I only three more questions, and then we are done.
1:03:40
RJ: Okay, no problem.
1:03:40
SM: This may seem a repetitive question, but I think it is very important with the project I am working on again, that is why I am repeating it. Do you think it is possible to heal within a generation where differences in positions taken are so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care and is it feasible? For example, during my many trips to the wall, I have been to several ceremonies of the veterans in the audience. Many of them have stated that they still hate Bill Clinton, they hate Jane Fonda based on the fact that they are wearing these badges that say "Jane Fonda bitch," they are all over the place. They hate those and protested the war and never gave veterans a royal welcome on the return to the mainland. The Wall was helping a magnificent way but the hate remained for those on the other side. Should an effort be made to assist in this healing beyond the wall, your thoughts? Are you optimistic or pessimistic? And basically, I guess what I am trying to get at. I know it is impossible to 100 percent deal as one person told me, is Dr. Silver, who is a psychologist up in Coatesville. He said “There is a difference between forgiving and healing. Healing, we can know a lot of veterans are healing from the war, but they cannot forgive.” So, do not misinterpret that the fact that they cannot forgive Jane Fonda or Bill Clinton means that they are not healing. You agree with that premise? That or do you agree that the efforts that the healing process should be trying to get beyond the need to forgive Bill Clinton because he was a young man at that time. And he obviously made have done something wrong in their eyes, but to constantly use hate someone; hate is a strong word.
1:05:12
RJ: Well, I-I do not believe that healing can take place without forgiving. Forgiving is atonement and spiritually, the only way that you can find say like, and this is psychological and spiritual, the only way that you can heal, which means to become whole is to, in fact, say like forgive, where you are giving the past a different meaning. As long as you are holding on to a past that has been self-hurting to you, and a past that has been troubling to you, then you cannot heal. And if you decide and the only person actually who can bring about that healing is oneself, one has to learn the process of change and the process of healing. And one of those things is that one has to in fact, let the past go. Do not allow the past to control your present, then you are in fact being healed. Okay, like for example, a good [inaudible] metaphor is if you allow us, you have an abrasion and it scabs, that happened in the past, it is in the process of healing. But if you in fact, allow yourself to pull that scab off, it takes it back to where it was, it was you re-hurt it again. So then the skin cannot, the scab cannot fall away, cannot harden to allow the skin to re- to become whole and is one. Okay, so this is what has been happening. I think with a lot about Vietnam, we think it is a it is a destination, it is a journey, the healing is okay, and I am in that process. The petroleum that drives that you to that journey is forgiveness.
1:07:06
SM: It is interesting, that brings up the whole idea that this is such a complex subject, that even when we talk about healing, the definitions are different. You as a professional, this other person is professional.
1:07:17
RJ: It does not surprise me because in my judgment, European men have a difficult time dealing with spiritual concepts, unless they are theologians.
1:07:29
SM: People will ever trust elected leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate [inaudible] stress what effect is this having on the current [audio blip] it gets back to my question with Senator Muskie, and the fact that I can remember reading something that if you cannot trust in life, you have got to trust someone, you cannot, if you do not-
1:07:48
RJ: That is right-
1:07:48
SM: You are not going to be successful in life-
1:07:50
RJ: Which is true. If you cannot trust.
1:07:50
SM: In the long run. But there is a lot of you know, I still have that problem. I am very, not what I lot of people I trust, I mean- But positions of authority, it is always seems to be about power, its control, its takeover. It is never it is jealousy. It is you know, and I know, it is- that is part of what being a person is-is the politics of life. I know that for a fact that whenever you get into a certainly an institution of higher education, and certainly in the political reason it is and then after, and then as most boomers have done, they have grown up at a time when they saw their-their leaders assassinated, they saw political the nation come apart. They saw divisions that were so wide. And then then of course, Watergate just added on top of that you cannot trust the enemies list, you know, people looking into private lives. And you will see that extended into today with almost a George Orwell, George Orwellian philosophy of (19)84, that nothing is private, nothing is sacred anymore. Your whole private life is now on computers that can be bought. It is just an extension of the Nixon enemies list almost. You see a little bit of in the White House with the appointment, some of his people taking the Republican names, even though it may have been a mistake, someone was doing it. So, I am asking that basically, this whole concept of trust. We see amongst our college students today that only about 15-17 percent, according to last studies of entering freshmen are have any interest in politics or actually to trust any leaders yet there is interest in volunteerism is over 85 percent. So, on the one hand, we see students will obviously care about others because they are doing volunteer work. They care about others yet, maybe they do not see the sense that they themselves can be empowered.
1:09:35
RJ: Well, [crosstalk] they do see that they can be empowered, but the type of empowerment is obviously altruistic and not financial, and not and not receiving their empowerment is not giving which is, in my judgment, more probably more peaceful, more subtly and more if you want to talk about identity is more is more is coming and goes with whom you are more. And that you are defining yourself by what you are doing by using your talents to in fact help somebody else.
1:10:20
SM: That is happening on amongst today's college students.
1:10:23
RJ: Well, that is great, that is really great at that level, are definitely say that that is admirable, and probably in terms of the healing process of a generation, and the babies of boomers healing, maybe they are, in fact, say healing themselves. And in the process, maybe the boomers in their senior years will emulate what their children are doing in terms of reconciling. And actually, if you may, atoning by letting it go, what they have been driven by-by all these years for all these years.
1:10:57
SM: How do you respond on the fact that today's college students still do not vote? They do not vote. Boomers do not vote in large numbers. And boomers are the ones that are thought to have the 18 year old vote, the old slogan was a for going off to war, then we have to be able to vote, we are going to die in war at 18, then we can vote at 18.
1:11:16
RJ: Okay.
1:11:16
SM: Of course (19)68 was the first year that 18-year-olds could vote. So yet but, statistics show that boomers and their kids are both not voting. And the to use Dr. Benjamin Barber, who is-
1:11:27
RJ: Okay but look at it like this. But then what are politicians doing about voter registration, motor-motor voter registration, have you noticed they do not want it? Why? Because they-
1:11:37
SM: Jackson does, because-
1:11:37
RJ: Wait a minute but that is not, but he is a different type of politician, he is an altruistic one. That professional politician does not want that to happen. Okay, because they know if the people if those boomers who are not about the voting vote and have AIDS to the [inaudible], they tend to also be against the established politicians. Okay, and established politician know that that is a no-no, you do not want that type of person, even to vote in the poll, you want that opinionated, if you may, either-or type person in there, you do not want the thinking person in there, the boomers, the children or boomers, therefore probably going to register more as independents, rather less and less as Democratic or Republican, which is, in fact, again, the lifeblood of democracy. So, then what they are in fact, say perhaps going toward, and incidentally, not trusting the political process, maybe will be the existing the status quo political process may be is the impetus that is going to change it.
1:11:43
SM: [Inaudible] since the (19)60s and still continues here in the (19)90s.
1:12:27
RJ: [agreement]
1:12:32
SM: How did the youth in the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that in your 20s when you were teaching? You saw some of them, you saw some in your classes, and then of course, you have seen them now, throughout the years. Have they changed your life in any way, the boomers you have come in contact with?
1:13:06
RJ: Yeah, they gave me more hope. They did. Okay, when I think about it, but the majority of them gave me hope. It was especially when I was teaching in predominantly white schools. They gave me more hope about-about the races actually doing things together in a common end. Okay, they gave me more hope in the sense of saying that race or that quality probably transcended race when it came down to mentoring. Okay, I definitely saw that. And also, incidentally, that is why because you remember that course I had up at the prison, remember?
1:13:53
SM: Oh, great course.
1:13:53
RJ: Yeah. Okay. So then, and I am still doing some of that right now. But I remember when we had all of the young white blonde girls going up there to [Inaudible] Reformatory, which was one of the big prisons there.
1:14:06
SM: Tiffany Brian? I forget her name. We went with me. I forget her name Bitty O'Brian?
1:14:09
RJ: Bitty O'Brien. I remember her.
1:14:11
SM: She was a shrimp.
1:14:12
RJ: Yeah, and-
1:14:12
SM: Four foot six!
1:14:13
RJ: -Susan Shillman. And all of them. You know, they all went up there. So and then we were seeing that, that they had a sense of wanting to do something. But now that was, and now we also had to take into consideration that I was blinded. I did not know what was going on over the School of Business. I did not know what was going on in school of education. I mean, not education, but engineering and that type of thing I was dealing with because here is the other thing, Ohio State implemented while I was there, they implemented the early experiencing program that before you could declare your majors for the undergraduate, you had to have two years of volunteerism before you could declare your major they were just implementing that, okay. So consequently, that whole thing when you think about that, that sense of hope that I think that they the sense of commitment that they had, that they wanted to do something. But now guess what. The people, many of those people decided to get out of education, many of them decided to get out of social work. Why? Because it was not paying enough money.
1:15:18
SM: Right.
1:15:18
RJ: But now on the other hand, the enroll and we even start disseminating, we started on, say, actually dismantling colleges of education. And now we see we do not have any teachers. So now we are having to re- get a resurgence in education, again, resurgence in social work, and so forth, okay. And people now a want those jobs and want those majors. I had a child in here the other day to tell me that he was really considering which is very African American young a very smart, what have you, and his dad killed his mom. And that is one of the issues he is dealing with about six years ago, and he is still dealing with it, but he wants to be a teacher. You know, I mean, and that is unusual to find a child now that says, "I want to be a teacher" or "I want to be a minister," or that "I want to be, I want to major in criminal justice" or something. Everybody is, "I want a lot of money. I want to be a doctor, I want to be a lawyer." You see what I mean?
1:16:15
SM: Right.
1:16:16
RJ: Even my two children, remember that? Lisa is I told you is an MD at Merck now, she just moved up there last month and from-from Glaxo Wellcome. And Marcus is completing his MBA, with a baby then, is completing his MBA JD at Georgetown, one more year. Okay, look at what they chose.
1:16:35
SM: That was the son that I met two years ago, he was going to go to Berkeley or Stanford. What happened to?
1:16:39
RJ: He is at Georgetown.
1:16:40
SM: Oh, he is at Georgetown.
1:16:40
RJ: Yeah.
1:16:41
SM: Oh, okay.
1:16:41
RJ: Yeah, he is going, his MBA. He has finished in more year, he will have an MBA and JD.
1:16:48
SM: Wow. Two more questions, and I swear we are done.
1:16:53
RJ: Okay.
1:16:55
SM: Again, this might be repetitive when the best history books are written on the growing up years for the boomers saying 25 to 50 years from now, what will be the overall valuation? I think you have covered that in what you have said before, but as a history major, political science, which was my double major as an undergrad, one thing I was always taught is that the best history books on any era or take about 50 years. History books right now on World War Two, [inaudible] the best ones on World War Two are now. And so, we are only like, 25 years out from that era, that juncture there is a lot of books that are written, you feel that-that is, it is, it is too early?
1:17:28
RJ: 50 years?
1:17:29
SM: Yeah. But do you think?
1:17:30
RJ: Is it too early now to say it is some good lookout?
1:17:33
SM: Yeah.
1:17:33
RJ: Well, I do not think that is really, we have not run a full course, I agree. That I really think that is, you know, because we almost got what would be considered modernity and postmodernity within that group. I mean, that group right there. So now with the books that is going to come out and look at the transition from that, in terms of modernity, and postmodernity, which will probably be another 20 odd years, those are going to be the ones that will give us the best account of this generation, okay. The boomer generation, I think it has not- certain conclusive, let us say positions cannot be taken now. Because this in gestation, I mean that the children will say a lot about how successful the parents will be. The children's success on the children's behaviors is going to make it is going to give people the empirical data about what was apparently collectively happening with the parents.
1:18:27
SM: And [inaudible], could you comment on the generation gap in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the generation gap if you sense one between the boomers and generation X. Obviously, I could talk all day, [phone rings] this generation gap when I was there. When I was a young person, I can remember this taking that sociology class at SUNY Binghamton before I arrived on the Ohio State campus, to see Wright Mills' book, White Collar, talking about fact that the IBM mentality of everybody with a top hat, with a suit, with a car out in front, the [inaudible] in the house, that was what we did not want to be. Because remember, that was when the Multiversity. I think it was-
1:19:14
SM & RJ: Barker's book.
1:19:15
SM: -Coming out there. And the revolt was that we were not going to be carbon copies of what the university or what society wanted us and we are all going to go our different ways. We are going to challenge the status quo. And that was obviously the tension between the generation, my generation and my parents’ generation. And now you see you I have raised a few things about tensions between the boomers and big things on Social Security. Every but thing's being written now that stayed in the (19)30s. Because there was an ongoing war. We have had people on our campus from [inaudible] to third millennia wars, alarming today's college students about the upcoming war on Social Security between boomers and today's children. I mean, they are saying a war is coming even before the war has happened. I do not like that terminology, "war." But I do not know. But would you- would you agree that the generation gap is any different now than it was back in the (19)60s?
1:20:14
RJ: Yeah, I think that is a very good point. I think it was on less serious issues back in the (19)60s, probably we thought that they were serious then. But in the (19)60s is a generation gap was pertaining to things like about whether you are going to go to college, who has the authority, and to make these decisions, and that older people out of touch in a more defiant- it was almost is we have an and say, diagnosis, we have an oppositional defiant disorder, then it was a more of an oppositional defiant disorder. But now, I think is structurally, I think that was what was happening now is that the very structure on which society is built, it is causing a rift in the generation in terms of, if you may, the issue of entitlement, okay. If you think about the issue of entitlement, what am I entitled to at 65, and-and going in my senior years, that my, my daughter will be entitled to or not entitled to and her- and my-my oldest daughter- and her children, she is a boom, a well, just yeah, she was born in (19)64. So then, in terms of her child, what will her child be entitled to? And then in terms of the workforce, you see, the older group, the older the-the boomers are going to be phasing out of the workforce. And the struc- and then with the global economy, and that issue coming in there, and what do we do with our older people and people in need? I think we are talking structural issues here. We are not we are not talk- it is analogous to, "Oh mom and dad, how late should I stay out" or "Should I in fact, engage in sex?" Now, there is analogous to that, to now it is much more serious. And that is, "what do you think about an abortion? As opposed to, "Should you not," as opposed to "Should I pit?" or "Should I be going steady?" Now the issue is, you see what I mean?
1:22:24
SM: Yep.
1:22:25
RJ: What should I be doing? What do you think about abortion as a political issue? People are now being, you see what I mean, and that this is a generational thing, or better yet not so much about what am I going to do in terms of my career, but whether or not we should in fact, be in allowing immigrants to come into the country. It used to be just, hey, you know, America, come on over. Right. But now we got much more structural issues here. I thought that-that is hitting that the infrastructure, that is actually having an impact about what our boomers going to do, as opposed to that children are going to do. And then how will we sus- how will we sustain this, the Social Security system, if, for example, we are outsourcing the making of Nike shoes to Malaysia, and we do not have those people in the in the Social Security system paying in anymore to take care of the boomers who are in fact getting older.
1:23:20
SM: I had not even thought of that. And I know about the social security issue. But you know, paying all the wages of people outside of this country. And this money could be coming into the United States, and that could be produced here. And that would help the divisions that could not [crosstalk]
1:23:35
RJ: That is exactly right but I think I am seeing something structurally happening in five years, the states will, in fact, have to, in fact, come up with- I noticed this in Wisconsin last, week before last. We saw an awful lot of young Black males working in hotels, you do not see that around here. I mean, cleaning up and everything, because Thompson out there is getting, in order to get certain types of benefits work- you got Workfare out there. Everybody is working, doing something in Wisconsin.
1:24:05
SM: Tommy Thompson.
1:24:05
RJ: Yeah.
1:24:06
SM: [Inaudible] writing a book out too right now. Is that Megatrends?
1:24:07
RJ: Okay, yeah, you know, he was being considered, he was not ready to be considered for vice presidents, but he is apparently doing something out there. His administration is, and that is what Clinton has supposedly, you know, tailored this thing. But now when you start thinking about the global economy, and then you start talking about the workforce growing, okay. I mean, workforce dwindling, and then outsourcing your-your jobs to, to whomever to the global economy. And that you know, like, I forget the name in his book, but you know, like we got we are going to have producers of information, and then we going to with the internet and everything- Maybe it is Megatrends. A female wrote it?
1:24:13
SM: Nope. Well, yeah. Male and female. The husband wife combination.
1:24:25
RJ: Okay, right. Okay. I forget who they are, they have written. Yeah, but you get where I am coming from. That is that right now you see, we are going to have different categories of who is going to be producing information, who is going to be the transportation to get the product to where it wants to go, and who is going to be the person to manufacture, and who is going to be the person to sell. That was what we got to do. And so when you think about this, think about this, at the bottom line is profit, you going to the cheapest person every time. So then, but what that does is unless you would have these centers, these-these type of centers or focus centers, you were going to get left out of the loop. And I think that is, what is getting ready to happen to the children of boomers, unless we in fact, began to reconceptualize it. But in the final analysis, we run a possible core shutdown of the whole thing. Because if the children of boomers are not paying into Social Security, then we got a problem. They do not have anything to support the people who are in fact seniors and dying out, and then they will not in fact, say like when they get a chance to move on until that, there is nobody to support them.
1:25:59
SM: It is pretty scary.
1:26:00
RJ: Yeah, it is.
1:26:01
SM: It was got to be addressed. It was got to be more vision, talk about the quality of vision. In a political, I am like, okay, we are talking, spending at least up to five, seven years down the road. Nine years?
1:26:14
RJ: It is going to be a major problem.
1:26:15
SM: (20)07 depending on the politician.
1:26:17
RJ: [inaudible]
1:26:20
SM: This is my last question. And again, the youth of the of that era believe they could have impact on society and government policy in the (19)50s (19)60s and (19)70s, Vietnam [inaudible] legislation. Certainly, they were involved in nonviolent protests. And the many movements, whether it be the women's movement, the environmental movement, and the-the gay and lesbian movement, the Native American movement, even the Hispanic movement at that time, and all were thrusting around that era. Although some of the critics of say the civil rights movement is not of that era, it was way before into the (19)50s. But why is society resisting this today? And why in your own words, were the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society, less desire and seemingly less opportunity? Am I wrong in assuming this question? [Inaudible] of opportunity, and by saying, less desire? I think we have probably gone over all of this already. But it is, it is something that is plaguing me. And because I- am I wrong and assuming that this is even a problem?
1:27:23
RJ: You are, I think you are onto something, I do not see the same commitment that they can bring about if I am understanding, that they can bring about change and wanting to get involved as readily as their parents were because now, we do have, we have a resurgence, if you may, of the media projection is one of individualism. The need is one of collective action. That is what we have, that again, creates another ambivalence. There is a need for people to collectively and altruistically be involved in things. And the, and the notion is that if I can acquire it is kind of a cybernetic social Darwinism, again, that, for example, the fastest growing businesses in the world right now in the United States anyway, are home-owned businesses, okay. And so therefore, we believe that by empowering people now, is to have a laptop and a modem. And a lot of people operating under the notion that if you have a laptop and a modem, you can in fact, work at home and do whatever it is that you want to do. So, if you got your inner sanctum there within your home, etc., you do not have to be concerned about anything else. You outsource that to somebody else to be concerned about. That is what the notion is all about. Outsourcing is the concept right now. I do not want this problem, get a private, privatize. Get somebody else to take care of it for you. Okay, and that is what our children- our children are more attuned to using me now. I mean, the boomer's children are more attun- they are not afraid to come to council. Some of them are resistant, boys tend to resist more than girls and etc. But they understand using that outsource of information they are not- they understand using agents. I mean, a good example of that, look at all these mega dollar contracts, basketball contracts that these guys got in this last year. They do not know beans about but how to go down and sort of jump the ball up, slam dunk, but they got these. They got these shrewd lawyers who are in fact working to get their money through these guys talent, outsourcing, you got some you got some talent, outsource it, get the person get your talent person and go ahead and get it.
1:29:56
SM: The term I [inaudible] "outsource-outsource." Is that a terminology of the (19)90s?
1:30:01
RJ: Yes. Outsourcing is what is turning DC around, man. Here is what it is okay. Like it used to it used to be the whole notion of make or buy, make or buy decision when you in business, do you make the product or do you buy? All right, a bakery. Do you, if you and say you own giant, giant food stores right over here, do you make this cheesecake, or do you buy it from somebody else to make it a [inaudible] or let a contract? See, here is the whole notion now. Everybody got a contract. Okay, now, just like another biggest purveyor of this concept is the Pentagon got the biggest budget in the federal government. But guess what, the Pentagon does not make one thing or manufacture one thing. Everything is outsourced to, to contracts.
1:30:51
SM: Senator Proxmire, remember?
1:30:54
RJ: Yeah.
1:30:54
SM: The whole fleece award or whatever [crosstalk]
1:30:55
RJ: Yeah, that is right. Everything is so now this down to this level right now, okay. And so forth. My son, musician, right. I mean, he also is into, he has his own band, and he is going into production, he was not going to entertainment law. Now, he has a couple of contracts on Department of Interior to put on concerts and parks in the DC area. Here, well he is doing one tonight and one tomorrow, everything is outsourced. When you in fact, say like need now, do you know one of the biggest businesses that are going on? Not owning a temporary agency to provide temporary accountants, you can provide temporary home care for your-your aging parents, you can provide temporary, a secretarial service, now you can do provide temporary anything. So, then the people do not have to run human resource departments anymore. You have not seen it probably at Westchester? Nobody, in fact, has a janitorial college. I mean, a university around here, or this building. This building does not have a maintenance person, it has, it outsources, it to a company that provides it.
1:31:13
SM: Yeah, that was what happened at Westchester.
1:31:54
RJ: Yeah, that was what happened at the university of DC. They do not have the same char-person anymore, taking care of who was on the staff. You do not have that overhead for the fringe benefits and all the rest of the stuff and you do not have to deal with unions.
1:32:22
SM: That is another thing that the children have to deal with. Because though even Sears Roebuck is hiring only part time people as opposed to full time.
1:32:28
RJ: Yeah.
1:32:29
SM: And all the money you are going to make is going to be based on what you sell.
1:32:33
RJ: Right, commission.
1:32:34
SM: And the dead days for all business. And then, but not giving coverage, medical coverage to employees, is one of the basic incentives for doing this, it is about cost saving.
1:32:44
RJ: That is right [inaudible].
1:32:47
SM: I have done here with the exception of the fact is, do you feel you have made an impact on American society? This question will be asked to all participants in the interview process. And as a follow up, do you feel you have made a positive impact in the lives of boomers and the members of the current generation called generation X? Some people said, you know, I cannot [inaudible]. Well, I will let you answer that. Just-just your own thoughts.
1:33:12
RJ: Well, by virtue of my former students, standing contact with me, the feedback that I get [audio cuts]. I fortunately am in a good position to get feedback from my people that I have been in contact with, I still stay in contact, believe it or not, I have a couple of youngsters that I was dealing with-with an Upward Bound project back at University of Illinois before I even got my PhD, that still stay in contact with me and attest to they are having gotten some from the way I operated and the way I operated, inspired them. I have undergraduates from when I was an academic advisor at Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville of a few people whose still contact me, one young lady call me recently she got a doctorate and when she came into town. She was here for I think, a funeral. And she called me and I had her as an undergraduate student, and she was still talking about the way I operated as an academic advisor in these- one of the ideas developed a concept called intensive academic advisement for high risk students. When I was at Southern Illinois, at Edwardsville and she was talking about how that feel, how that helped her. And I was home for a class reunion, for my high school classroom. And a lady approached me at church and said that two of her sisters yet talk about me as being their academic advisors and both of them are very successful. And now and when they were there working on their, on their degrees at Southern Illinois Edwardsville about and when we were introduced in church that Sunday, she said that she heard my name and she wanted to come up and say to her sisters have told her about me. Now that is almost 30 years ago, right? And then of course you is an attest- you are in attestment to that. I think I have made a difference. Carl Harshman is an attestment to that, that I think I ma- made a difference. Mac Stewart is in attestment. Everly Bank, do you remember her?
1:35:33
SM: Was she there when-?
1:35:34
RJ: She was a heavyset young lady. She were-
1:35:37
SM: Was she there in (19)72?
1:35:38
RJ: Yeah, she was kind of quiet. And but she was kind of obese. She went on and went to University of Minnesota and gotten a PhD. And Everly has been at about 10 different university in the last nine years. She has gone away to California someplace now, but just loved the universi- Jackson State University where she was vice president of this type of thing. And she has I have kept in contact with her over the years, you know, and Bill Pickard, I do not know if you remember him. Bill Pickard was working on his doctorate there at Ohio State at that time. And he went into business and owns a couple of McDonald's in Cleveland, Ohio, and another one in Detroit. And get ready for this. Bill is the state chairman of the Republican Party for the state of Michigan, very wealthy guy now, right. He is in contact with me, right. [laughter] This I mean, he is extremely wealthy. I mean, I am not saying he just got a little money.
1:36:40
SM: Right.
1:36:41
RJ: He is making buku dollars, okay. So, then that is, that is how I get some of the feedback then around here. Since I have been in this area. A lot. I mean, hund-, literally hundreds of people who have gotten their degrees out of our department at-at-at UDC, and a Master's in Counseling Psychology, they are now in working in DC government, heads of departments, the chief of police in, for example, chief of police in New Orleans, is William Pennington, he got his degree out of my department, I worked personally with him setting up some programs and things when he was here over the juvenile division, right. And now he is chief of police in New Orleans. So then in that regard, and he got a lot of outreach, and he got the community policing thing going on here, you know, that type of thing. So yeah, I think I have made a difference.
1:37:36
SM: That is very important. And I can admit, the fact that I am sitting here that you have made a difference in my life, because I say, well, you know, when we were-were, I think the best thing that ever happened to me was when I broke my arm before I came to Ohio State and had to start late, remember I was supposed to start in the fall. And I was supposed to have, I think [inaudible] Silverman, I think supposed to be my advisor, but because I came in January, you became my advisor. And I will never forget some of the meetings we had during this. But I can never forget some of the meet- [audio cuts]. I am not sure where we were here, but you look at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, about the healing process. Do you feel that? From your own perspective, not only someone who's a scholar and intellect, a professor, but someone who has seen a lot of people and lived through that era of the (19)60s and (19)70s, the Vietnam War. Do you sense that the healing has taken place within the Vietnam veterans, and then within the nation itself between those who are for or against the war, the tremendous divisions that happened in the country at that time?
1:38:46
RJ: Now, we were saying and as I was saying, you know, like, I think the last term I use when the conceptual incarceration in the boomers, okay, and the same thing is true with respect to the Vietnam issue and healing. It will heal. Right now, the motives for it is not healing by people who control the media is that it is still, it raises a lot of controversy. So, then people in the media go after things that are and book publishers go after things where people are still struggling to get the healing done, cause that pain will cause them to pursue some remedy. Like you were mentioning a man who did not make the eye contact, that was a negative coping antidote that they have had, well, let us say interpersonal social skills, it is an antidote that they have had to develop probably to keep their pain down, okay. And it they have very idiosyncratic reasons for not looking at people and so forth. Now there are people who are hustling the Vietnam War thing. I still I mean, the memory of the other Vietnam War thing is still being hustled by a lot of people. And you got to understand this is a capitalistic society, we always talk about this being a democratic society. I believe that when Abraham Lincoln said in the Emancipation Proclamation, and that he was going to give everybody 40 acres and a mule that was not just for [inaudible] folk. What that was, is that everybody has really believed in a way, and I certainly believe that, when you do not get your 40 acres and mule that is promised to you in the form of a degree and a job and a, two hot, two cars with a chicken in the pot and this type of thing, people going to figure out a way to get that 40 acres and the mule, you understand what I am saying? So therefore, we have to look at some of the motives behind keeping the Vietnam War, as in fact, say aroused, arousing and as provocative as it is, were there not the media, the healing would take place. Like for example, in suppose we have Armistice Day parade of 1946. In New York, everybody still remembers that, that brought closure to when the boys came home, you remember that concept? There is a concept, when the boys came home, that brought closure to World War Two. But the fact, but if we did not have the television, the immediacy of the television, how many stories have been made even the whole doggone thing about that the guise of Forrest Gump of Forrest Gump was a takeoff on the Vietnam War, and the whole process of healing, and so forth. You just name it, you got so many different movies, and so many type books and everything. People are hustling that concept, okay. So then everything in America is about capitalism, find a way to capitalize upon. If you cannot, and a lot of people are driven by this, and this is a little dirty secret that we do not, in fact, say like, bring up. But any doggone thing that we do in this country, there is only one motive that a whole lot of people have in doing it. And that is their hustling.
1:42:09
SM: Making a buck.
1:42:10
RJ: Making a buck. Now, let us go back to whether or not- I have been down to the wall, and I went down to the wall with a group of people from home. That is the only other, that is the only time everyone that comes very [inaudible]. And the reason we went down there is because I had several friends who came to visit, they wanted to see the wall. And we knew some people who were killed. And so we wanted to see if we could find their names, which we did. And yes, so therefore it is very moving. It provokes in you, it arouses any emotion within you. But in arousing of the emotion, just like all memorials, that is what they are supposed to do. They are supposed to make you remember. And so then some people have discovered, just as people had discovered with respect to, some people have even discovered with respect to the China thing is it called the Turner Diaries, is the guy who wrote the book with respect to the whole thing about terrorism, and they believe that Timmons- Timothy McVeigh read this book, and this guy is a professor-
1:42:17
SM: I think it is Turner Diaries, that is right.
1:43:06
RJ: The Turner Diar-, okay, everybody got a motive. Why would you want to write a book like that? You see, you want to write a book like that because it sells. Okay, there could be no other real motives. I mean, so then you got to, and why does the publishing company publish a book like that, because it sells. It has no redeeming value. So, we got a lot of stuff out here, that is that is and the boomers are halfway responsible for this. Because the boomers do believe in this, obviously, they have been coopted into believing it. And that is, if it is in fact, about so called free speech. And if it is, in fact, a marketable commodity, you do it. But there are a lot of marketable commodities out here, that we are, in fact, say like, probably going down a blind alley on, that we need to begin to take a look at a little bit more. So, but now, as long as we have the time, the immediacy of the internet and the immediacy of let us say the cyberspace it is going to be very difficult healing the- this thing for the next 20 odd years or 20 or 30 year, but I think Senator Muskies point was very well taken. We are still fighting the Civil War. We are still fighting the revolutionary war in this country, okay, this type of thing. So that healing has never occurred, I mean, has never completely taken shape. Okay, and you know, there is one book out that has said, and turns that the Hare Krishnas of all people wrote "Dope Incorporated." Have you ever seen that book?
1:44:55
SM: No.
1:44:56
RJ: Okay, well, anyway, it came out about 25 years ago, and they said in no uncertain terms that Great Britain was one of the major problems, in terms- and documented it pretty well- of the major reasons why we had such a drug problem in this country, I mean a drug problem this country and Great Britain, while it does have a drug problem, not as bad as here. And they actually did some-some research to show this, okay, but now the point is, so now that means about what I mean there I am simply saying that America, Great Britain has suffered in the US of A and got it was fight and all over the country now, that it does not commit any major troops or anything like that. You see what I mean? So, they are still fighting the Revolutionary War by in fact, one analysis, allowing the US of A to in fact, go around the world and police the world, fuck them.
1:45:46
SM: Yeah, good point. Going to make sure this is working here. [audio cuts] What are your thoughts on these former leaders of the left who have now totally condemned their past, are writing books like Cora Witts and [Peter] Collier, who decided that what they did in the past was totally wrong. And so, they have written books like "Destructive Generation," basic, condemning anybody that was ever involved in the left in the movement. And we have seen, I have seen quite a few of these books coming out recently. It is part of the, I guess, a good way of attacking the boomers in that era, and those who are involved in those types of issues.
1:46:25
RJ: Well, but I think it is also a part of becoming, if you may, going from one stage of the realization stage into the examination stage it is a process of growing old. It happens that people think back and reflect on things that they have done. So psychologically, what is happening there is there is a kind of a catharsis that is going on, cleaning out one's mind, giving it a different giving some things that one has done, it is a kind of a repentance, okay. I do not think that it can ever be helped. I mean, as Muhammad Ali said, great philosopher, a man who thinks the same way at 50, as he did at 20, has lost 30 years of his life. Okay, so then in that regard, I think it is it is impossible for one not to completely alter one's thoughts, by virtue of the process of living is a process of change, and one who invite things identically and does ident- well, if you think identically the way that you did at 20, if you do at 50, as you will at 50, then obviously, you going to act the same way. But if you alter that, and then so then therefore, some people are feeling that same pain that we are talking about that some of the people from Vietnam have experienced, they [inaudible] for documenting it, now I am not against people writing books, but I do know that there are some people who do not let things die, because, for example, they are hustling, okay. And there are some people who do it for a legitimate healing purpose. And that book that that person is writing probably is-is beneficial to other people who are still feeling the pain, because they do not have the medium to say it. So when they read it, they can, therefore cathart themselves, they can vicariously cathart.
1:48:22
SM: Good point there, how am I trying to hustle with this book.
1:48:24
RJ: That is okay. [Inaudible]
1:48:26
SM: The basic premise I have in this book is, I had not even thought about that I just want to do something to create better understanding, where you get a wide variety of perspectives, and to not be judgmental toward any individual that I am speaking to, is to let the others read these interviews, and let them judge to know that people are still thinking about it trying to create a better understanding between those who are for and against the war. Also, to try to understand where conservative liberals think today and how they are somewhat judgmental toward an entire generation. Where in reality, there is much more, you can never generalize anything, because it is a very complex issue-
1:49:05
RJ: That is right.
1:49:06
SM: -As everything is. What I am trying to do here in this next segment is to just give you some names of some individuals who were obviously well known to all boomers, they may not be known to some of our gen X people. But just some basic comments on your thoughts, whether you feel these people were positive or negative influences in America. And also secondly, what your thoughts might be in terms of how boomers may look at these individuals, not only then and now, the first two are Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda.
1:49:37
RJ: Again, from one perspective, they, they were very important during the early (19)70s, and so forth. But now, they tend to add credence to my hypothesis that we are, in fact driven by the buck. Because especially Miss Fonda, who has married one of the richest men in the country and one of the most powerful men in the world, and so forth. And she has all of her little mechanisms- she is selling her name. She is, that is her hustle, okay. So then so then therefore, I do not hear her talking, she may be using her money I therefore I cannot say she may be using her money to support social causes, rather than her making trips to Vietnam and places like this. She could very well be doing that. I do not know. But demonstrably now what I see her doing all the time is in the ballpark eating ice cream with Ted Turner. So then, and I have incidentally, I have one of her treadmills in my house. Okay, which is a non-motorized one. So I think it was a good treadmill. I like it is somebody telling me my doctor was saying one thing about Jane Fonda's treadmill is that they do not have any motor to break down them. And that was absolutely right, it was a darn good investment. So then I do have that. But now and Hayden is now doing his political thing. Is that right? In California,
1:51:01
SM: He is going to be at the convention this next week as a delegate for California.
1:51:04
RJ: Okay, fine. So then he decided that he was going when we, as a child, you act as a child, and when you become an adult, you throw those childish things away. So, then I got to say that I that does not surprise me. For a person who is rational, I do not expect that they would not fight, c'est la vie. Hayden would be more of an example of a person who, in fact, in my judgment, decided to keep his-his cars out for public scrutiny. It is a little bit difficult when Jane Fonda marries for example, as I say, somebody like Ted Turner, but I do not know what they do behind the scenes. See, I just do not know that. And when she is out front with marring him, and then all of a sudden, she retreats, apparently, I do not keep up with her daily itinerary, okay, so I cannot say.
1:51:54
SM: How about Lyndon Johnson?
1:51:56
RJ: Lyndon Johnson will always be remembered with a positive legacy, in my judgment, in terms of giving the little guy a shot, okay. And I think that he will singly in history go down as a president, to have done more to try to give the African America before we had all the other minority- a shot at a piece of the pie. I think he will go down in history as being a great politician as well, there is no question about it. He was a great politician. I think Lyndon Johnson, however, though, will be used by conservatives. And as he has been used now, there will be programs of the Great Society, the two that I know is still going on are Head Start and Upward Bound, okay, the rest of them have just devolved, been all wiped out. And they were designed to give the-the less fortunate people in our society, the more oppressed people in our society, an opportunity to get ahead. There is nothing like that anymore. So he, Lyndon Johnson's the thought of him still for the boomers who were committed to civil rights, and to human rights, still has a very special place in their hearts.
1:53:26
SM: But he was also caught up in that Vietnam trap, you know, the Vietnam War.
1:53:30
RJ: Yes. Yeah. In terms of the Vietnam War, it was obvious that it-it caught it was a precipitating event that caused him to actually resign from the pres- I mean to not seek the presidency again, okay. It is no question, and I think his failing health as well. But I think in terms of the historical period, that he could only do what his advisers were telling him to do. So then, therefore, it is just a matter of taking it and placing Lyndon Johnson with anybody else, and they would have done the same thing.
1:54:05
SM: How would you put John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy?
1:54:10
RJ: Kennedy always, but well both of them gave the aura of, gave the impression that they, too were for change. That is what I think they will both be remembered by. And they were also they gave the aura of the emergence of the of the, the emergence of the importance of youth in making decisions and playing a role in our society. And I think that that aura has, in fact continued on because before JFK, age did not appear to be that much of an issue about Presidents. But now that is definitely an issue and it has stayed with us for a long period of time, okay. So then and again, it was hoped, because here was a Catholic and a young person, and someone from New England who in fact could get to be president. So they get and his, and also it kept, it certainly kept with the both of them the whole notion that nepotism is a reality.
1:55:20
SM: How do you, this is a brief takeoff. That, that John Kennedy in particular is more of a pragmatic politician, and unless he was [inaudible] political pluses getting involved, for example, in the [inaudible] that was initiated by Harris Walker, who basically made that recommendation, and then, and certainly African Americans linked up with him, but he did not make a whole lot of decisions unless they were pragmatic. And so that was- he has been criticized as someone who was more pragmatic, sometimes Bobby Kennedy is looked upon as someone who was really evolving at the time in (19)68. A true compassion was really in Bobby as opposed to John, who was more pragmatic. You see that in between the two?
1:56:01
RJ: Well, we, Bobby for was not, Bobby was not inside the beltway type of politician. And maybe in Boston, he was okay. He was getting a B, I think, operating at that level, but he was kind of a hatchet man, kind of cruel. You know, in other words, and crude, I should say, kind of crude, and supposedly very cool, too. I mean, for people who knew him that he did not pull any punches, and so forth. So consequently, I think you are right there, he was an idealist at that point in time. But now another thing, while JFK was said to have been very practical, if you take a look at history, JFK is actually-actually was the driving force behind affirmative action, you will actually find that in terms of, he was getting ready to sign the executive order. He had, in fact, I am trying to think- was it Shultz? Whom was in fact say like, working under him at that time. But in June of (19)93, he was getting ready to issue the executive order, in June 22 (19)63. And he was actually kicked off our formative action, they actually use that word. And, and three months, four months later, he was assassinated. Now, a lot of folks do not know that, that in fact, it came into reality in terms of affirming, believe it or not, under Richard Nixon, when-when it was actually signed, it has never been a law. That was when most, you know, everybody always says affirmative action law. It was never a law. It was an affirmative action, an executive order 110243 or something like that. Look it up. But now, but JFK was the impetus behind that, all right. And if you take a look at that, then, so he had a lot of ideals, that while he was he was practical, and so forth. And he was sage, and he knew national politics, itself. And he will always be questioned about some of the decisions that he made, especially the Bay of Pigs thing, right. And that type of thing. He is always going to be suspect in history. And I do not, I do not know if, for example, 50 years from now, I really do not know if history is going to be good to JFK, okay. Because of all of the things that we do not know about the assassination that is eventually going to be known.
1:58:31
SM: That is right. I think it is supposed to come out in the year [inaudible], a long way off.
1:58:35
RJ: That is a long way off.
1:58:37
SM: It will be revealed then though, if the family is okay-ed it to be revealed. In fact, I think Teddy Kennedy is now the subject, I think Teddy Kennedy knows more than anyone, but he is you know, not going to reveal it to the world.
1:58:49
RJ: That is right. So, then I really do not think right now, what our perception of JFK is going, is now is certainly going to change once all of that all we know and all is known about that. That assassination is revealed.
1:59:04
SM: A couple other people here and I got quite a few of them, Huey Newton and Angela Davis. Now let me reflect that at the end I have had different commentaries from different individuals. Some people's whole slogan, you have heard this term, "Everybody has their 15 seconds or 15 minutes" [inaudible] what you comment, I have had one person who said that [inaudible] society at that time [inaudible] radical and Angela Davis, even though she was smart, and an intellect, is a communist. And I think what the term is, they had their 15 minutes of glory and that was it. How would you rate both Huey Newton and Angela Davis?
1:59:42
RJ: I think to, they meant different things to the Black intelligentsia, the Black intelligentsia boomers now, okay, see them as heroes. I am not so sure that they made that much a differen- and-and that a white intelligencia saw them as hero. That is right, I think it is a class thing here. I do not think that the- and the media, of course, they were exciting to follow and this type of thing. And but obviously, Huey Newton had a lot, and we are going to find out something else about that, it is questionable as to whether Huey Newton was killed the way he was killed. Huey Newton had very significant political implications in the state of California, among the Black intelligentsia. Huey Newton was in fact, when he was killed, had just I am told now, had just received a PhD.
2:00:44
SM: Yes. within about three to four months, and I have the book-
2:00:48
RJ: Was he going to get it or had just received it?
2:00:50
SM: I think he had his PhD.
2:00:51
RJ: Yeah, he had jus- yeah.
2:00:52
SM: And he was caught selling drugs? I could not I could not see the contrast.
2:00:55
RJ: No.
2:00:56
SM: Does not make any sense.
2:00:57
RJ: No, that was probably that- that was probably, that was very suspect. Just like we were saying about, I cannot think of, AD was that Martin Luther's brother, AD King?
2:01:09
SM: Oh, yes, the yes.
2:01:10
RJ: Yeah. Yeah, there is something suspect about that. And there is something suspect about what happened to Huey Newton. But Huey Newton was a very recognizable name and face in the state of California. And with his getting that PhD, it would ascend him to possible to the statute of Willie Brown, it would have. Huey Newton had more name recognition in the most popular state in the country than Willie Brown, among the black intelligentsia, and people of East LA, and, and people of San Diego, that whole Boomer generation there. So therefore, it was a reason why Huey Newton was killed.
2:01:11
SM: Yeah, who drowned. Of course, he was living in Oakland at the time.
2:01:55
RJ: Yes.
2:01:56
SM: Yeah, I can remember that, I can remember reading that he was shot to death walking down the street, and that did not make a lot of sense. I just, I could not, I just made no sense. And that was where right and that was the end of it.
2:02:08
RJ: I mean, that is the way to go, okay. Did it pop?
2:02:11
SM: Oh, no, that was [inaudible]
2:02:12
RJ: Okay. Okay, so now-
2:02:14
SM: And Angela, she is teaching the University of California Santa Cruz. She is there now as a full professor.
2:02:19
RJ: Okay. Now, again, Angela Davis. First of all, if people never did completely understand communism, and they do not know just how much communism we have going on in this country right now, when you really think about I think they were making a move yesterday was a major move and moving further away from communistic, if you may, economic principles in terms of welfare, but it is still limited. Communism is-is what Angela was, in fact, advocating for that time. And what is actually going on in this country is not that far away. We have more communism right now in the USA than they do in Russia. Right now. Okay, with the state provides more to people right now. See, we take away one thing, and that is when the state is providing that is the communism right. So, when you take away for example, one day, you take a wel- when you change your welfare laws, and you take them and you turn them around, but the next day you provide for universal medical care, Medicare, a medical-medical insurance, so then for all intents and purposes, you are just trading off one for the other. But and then you say you actually going to give a block grant to the states to run their welfare system for the bill that Clinton signed yesterday, that is nothing but typical communism. Okay, so then in that regard, it is another one those conceptual terms that incarcerate people to bring about, they keep this this conflict going. That we must have to have democracy. Because if everybody start saying, fire up the furnaces, we got a problem. Okay. I mean, I am talking about people got [inaudible] five departments for all the liberals, [inaudible] no, we should not have a one. So that is what the Founding Fathers, I think, did do in that great constitution, which is not a voluminous thing. And that is it provides to ensure that there is conflict. There is conflict.
2:04:25
SM: That is, seems to be getting stronger and stronger.
2:04:27
RJ: But guess what, you can never have a totalitarian state like that.
2:04:32
SM: That is right.
2:04:33
RJ: As long as you can keep conflict going, you will never have a totalitarian state. So many of the Supreme Court decisions that have in fact, say precipitated the area of one constituency, made another one feel good, and vice versa. So then in that regard, that is really what democracy, the lifeblood of democracy is conflict.
2:04:54
SM: And I will never forget when I was in California, the Bakke decision when that came out, I think in (19)79. Wow. The conflict was out there in the press and everything that happened at that time. Or the affirmative action decision in California right now. Yes.
2:05:10
RJ: Okay. And that is, that is bringing about a lot of conflict. But you have to live a while to get to where you can understand these things, okay.
2:05:19
SM: Well, and there is this I think there is some truth to this fact, too, that the more you know, the less you know.
2:05:23
RJ: And the more questions you write.
2:05:25
SM: Yes, definitely. Timothy Leary. Anything, your thoughts on him?
2:05:31
RJ: Hustler. [laughter]
2:05:35
SM: He has got a brand-new book out by the way.
2:05:37
RJ: Bless his, may his soul rest in peace, you know-
2:05:40
SM: His ashes are going to space, I think.
2:05:41
RJ: Is that right?
2:05:42
SM: Yeah, part of his ashes.
2:05:44
RJ: That was his desire?
2:05:46
SM: Yes.
2:05:46
RJ: Okay.
2:05:47
SM: I saw, I think the next space capsule, well his ashes are going to be going up there, in a satellite [inaudible] will be permanently up there.
2:05:54
RJ: Well, I, now that, Timothy Leary never really appealed to me back there in the early (19)70s I guess it was. It never, he really never appealed to me because I thought that it was almost like carnal knowledge. Okay, that he was taking advantage of young minds. Okay, for a self-hurting reason. I cannot see how spacing out on acid was going to have any redeemable effects on anybody. Okay. I mean, even on a chimpanzee or on a cobra or what have you is just not going to in fact have any-any human- a Cobra differently. But if you just put him out in the wild and give him an acid it would not have he could not de- or she could not defend him or herself. So consequently, I just never really got into that. And I think people use that to actually as a subterfuge to-to be in denial. Okay.
2:06:57
SM: How about people like Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin?
2:07:01
RJ: I think they served a purpose. I really do. I think that they are being at that convention, and what have you in (19)68. That convention was very important. That convention made people look at law enforcement and the power of people like Richard Dale. Okay, and in terms of say, the they were part of democratic society, Students for Democratic Society, were not they? What were the-
2:07:27
SM: They were the hippies.
2:07:28
RJ: They were the yippies, okay.
2:07:29
SM: Youth International Party.
2:07:31
RJ: Okay, fine. I think that they made people again, in terms of the role that they played, not just for in fact, say, getting away and moving to the hills and things of this nature. And so far, I do not think that that was necessary. I think it made people think about the alternatives. But I really do think that the that Abbie Hoffman and Rubin and the kind, and the publicity, they got in New York-New York, Chicago, and in that (19)68 convention, I believe that it actually had some impact, because it got international attention.
2:08:04
SM: How do you respond to the criticism of them that they never grew up? For example, Jerry Rubin although did change and was actually doing quite well. And say Ronnie, that he died doing something illegal, jaywalking in Los Angeles, he got hit by a car. But Abbie Hoffman killed himself just outside of Philadelphia couple of years back and he only had 2000 in the bank. He should have been very rich with all the lectures he had done, books he has written, gave, had given all his money away, wrote a note that when they found them that "No one was listening to me anymore." And that was why he killed himself. Now, I when I saw that, I says, "Is that symbolic of the boomers?" or at least those who were involved, no one has listened to them anymore. Or, or maybe a lot of them have gone on with their lives, but a lot of just a lot of those issues. Nobody has listened to those issues anymore. Some of them that still exist. So when you look at the death of an Abbie Hoffman, he was more true to his cause than Jerry Rubin who went into making a lot of money, whereas Abbie Hoffman went underground.
2:09:07
RJ: [Inaudible]
2:09:09
SM: Yeah, and then and then he was a Hudson, he was doing [audio cuts]
2:09:16
RJ: He was a, his testament was, in his last will and testament, "I want you to remember me as a spoiled brat," you know, he, and "I get people to listen to me, so I have a temper tantrum," and the temper tantrum was, I kill myself.
2:09:33
SM: That is a good observation, because somebody said that. Another person said that too, that. But do you think that getting apart from him, that some of those issues that were happening in the late (19)60s early (19)70s, that he, that maybe that message signifies our truth, that no one is listening anymore. In other words, there is no more racism anymore, or it is not as bad as it was back then. So, let us you know, it is, it is still got a long way to go for improvement. But it is not as it is not a major issue today. So thus, let us not, so that I think that is what he was trying to say there.
2:10:11
RJ: Well, it is still a major issue. And unfortunately, probably what he had done was that he was playing to the same crowd. And the same, reading the same data and recognizing that there were other forms of, of these issues. And if you look, if he had looked carefully enough, these are universally issues, even the issue of racism biblical antiquity, literature will in fact say, show you that racism was a reality, you know, years before Christ. So consequently, it will be a reality years and eons after we are in Saigon. So then, provided there is a world. Okay, now, that is a question. I mean, in terms of the environment, that is a very significant issue. So then, but he was not getting the responses probably that he got at one time because people are so bread and butter right now. And that is by being bread and butter. I mean, people just are not articulating, it is just like being a subscriber to a cable channel. It is so much dog- I mean, to a cable network of televisions and satellite- you got so much to choose from now. So, it is no sense in talking about did you see I Love Lucy last night, because hey, that is a stupid question as anybody now, okay, why. Because it got so many darn choices.
2:11:34
SM: That is right.
2:11:35
RJ: But see, it used to be you had to, at one time you see mom and dad all looked at the NBC channel. But even I just think I am not even getting into ABC. I remember what it was only NBC. Right, then that was CBS and ABC. So you had three, then it was a UHF channel. But now, now, it is stupid, everybody got so many other things that they are consuming, that he missed the boat, that he had begun, he was still believing egotistically that he was the center of the universe.
2:12:05
SM: That is a good point. I got quite a few of these here, Richard Nixon.
2:12:13
RJ: Well, Nixon, interestingly, apparently is perceived as somebody very significant in history. And the reason I said that is when I looked along his gray side when they televised his film, first of all, he as the president was ostensibly disgraced. And when they had his funeral in San Clemente, they had all of those debates or dignitaries that he ever knew and who had ever been anything in Washington, and all the networks carried. Okay, now that says something about it, about Richard Nixon, the man. It is no question about it, that he was on an ego trip as well. But interestingly, from a perspective of an African American man, Nixon is going to, history will show in terms of the chronicle, that African Americans made more progress under Nixon than any other president. That data are available with respect to housing, with respect to jobs, with respect to money, with respect to the SBA with respect to the 8(a) project that was developed to give Black people, at that time that was before it was women and minority was for Black people. Okay, this section 8(a) of the Small Business Act of (19)69 or, I think it was or (19)71, it is going to show that, okay. Black colleges did better under Richard Nixon than any other president. A lot of folks do not know that. So he was so slick, that he could have he could have things going. And that was why he had the name Tricky Dick. Okay, he has things going that history is going to be good to Nixon on. And that Nixon also, in fact, is going to show that he did in fact, have, he started this whole thing of over coordinating dealing with China and the, the Soviet Union. Okay, he is going to get credit for that, all right. So then we look at it realistically and empirically, I think history is going to be good to Nixon. If you look at what it meant to Black people at the time, I am not sure that how much of this did not ride in on the crest of the waves from the residual of Lyndon Baines Johnson, okay, because, and I could have insights on that. But now in the way he was operating, apparently, in the White House, it was obviously criminal what he was doing and he knew it and that was why he had been invited to go ahead and resign rather than be impeached. Okay, so now there is no question about that, he overextended his power is no question. But it does appear as though he was actually making a resurgence. People were giving him a lot of credit and so forth for the things that, calling upon his ambassadorship, free will ambassadorship that he was-was capable of doing. But at the time that he was in office, most African American and significant number of American people really were suspect of him. He never was completely really trusted.
2:15:17
SM: Those enemies list, remember the enemies list?
2:15:20
RJ: Yeah, I know. [crosstalk] on there do we start talking about empirical growth and development and things that happened, history is going to be good to Nixon. Things happened when he was president.
2:15:34
SM: He had that amazing quality of [audio blip] all throughout his life and towards the end.
2:15:40
RJ: And given and giving and getting things done. Nixon, things got done under Nixon. That was just very interesting. I think history is going to be good to him.
2:15:53
SM: A lot of people here include George McGovern, your thoughts on him?
2:15:58
RJ: Too good. Okay. McGovern was seen as I mean, it was a backlash, that McGovern was always a very intellectually astute man. I think he had an excellent mind. Had was a, was a great senator, South Dakota, right?
2:16:20
SM: [agreement]
2:16:21
RJ: Great senator from South Dakota, excellent for representing his state. But not for in fact say like, I mean for, now this the way I saw him, but not in fact say, for representing where America was at that time. Americans were still ambivalent about the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War was, it will be seen that it ended under Nixon, you know that. So consequently, Nixon was on a roll at the time. And McGovern was seen as too weak to middle cla- so I was in Ohio at the time. The people in Columbus, they just saw him as a very weak person, and I am talking about white and Black, predominantly white people. I saw him in my judgment as being very weak. And they did not want that perception of a leader at that time, okay. And they did not want an intellect that that at that time. The economy, or we were coming off of, it was unsure, and they were taut and nothing we had to wage and price stuff. Remember that? Yeah, when they froze wages and froze prices at the store, the inflation was zooming. You know?
2:17:32
SM: I was at the Columbus airport when he came there because I just graduated from Ohio State and was that my first job at Ohio University at Lancaster.
2:17:38
RJ: Okay, yeah.
2:17:40
SM: And I remember driving out to the [inaudible] driving out to that airport with [inaudible] I could not see him. He did not even hardly leave the plane area, got off, spoke and then he took off [laughs] but I remember that as plain as day. Eugene McCarthy. Intellect, extremely bright, too bright for the public. Or to understand. He was even a poet, you know? Yeah, he wrote poetry, lotta folks did not know that, okay. True. Good senator. For representing what was that- Wisconsin?
2:18:16
RJ: Minnesota.
2:18:16
SM: Minnesota. I knew it was one of them, okay. Right, [inaudible] this senator for representing that body of people. But the Americans could never buy into anybody that genteel. Let us see, Martin Luther King Jr.
2:18:32
RJ: History will be very good to Dr. King. He did he represented hope for the country. He is a, he is a credit to America will always be in a credit to America. His philosophies will at one time be quoted just as Mahatma Gandhi's or Chairman Mao, I think that there will become Qingyan philosophy school, that will eventually get there. And I think that is in fact, what were young African Americans will eventually open up in terms of nonviolence in everything that they do, that that is going to catch a hold. And he gave again, he had a lot of theological impact with respect to his outreach ministry, caused all churches to in fact be different and to put, and caused the Vatican to look at things differently. And also, his ministry. And the and his leading the ministry redefined what a minister is supposed to be about. And furthermore, he will always be remembered as the champion of human rights. I think that what he did for human rights, is-is probably not, is underrated in terms of, of the movement. If you look at solidarity, and if you look at the slogan, and if you look at the [inaudible] raids, and you know what I mean, and that type of thing, and if you look at their singing We Shall Overcome and things of this nature, that has become the battle cry for everybody who is perceived to have been say, oppressed. So the human rights movement was, was spawned from that Civil Rights movement which Civil Rights, and Martin Luther King will always be remembered synonymous.
2:20:29
SM: As I said, from going in his church down in Atlanta, the embodiment of what he was all about, and certainly what his dad is all about. I am sure a lot of churches had the same feeling. But the Ebenezer has to know that. We are all appreciated. We are all equal. There were no judging of anyone. And certainly, Reverend Robert could be proud, and certainly Reverend Victor, King has got to be in his glory. Seeing the Reverend Victor there, that young minister and [audio blip] coming minister, in fact there is several of them. Barbara Jordan when she died, you may have seen the funeral on C span. The minister in Houston, Texas, what a young man he is, the early (19)30s out of New York City, who was not, was her minister, and one of the most important qualities that she possessed is that when she came to that church as she was a, well, she was a well-known figure that could have sat in the front pew. But she wanted to be treated like [audio blip] that was what they came into. She had these great qualities about her, but she was a petite. [audio blip]
2:21:31
RJ: Wow.
2:21:31
SM: Queen of the people, she was of the people. So, just a couple other names, and we got a couple of questions that end it here. Robert McNamara, just a few thoughts on it, obviously some of these people are.
2:21:43
RJ: Well, Robert McNamara. Great rhetorician, had an excellent mind, will not be remembered as a great secretary of defense because of the Vietnam War. Okay. On the other hand, was extremely persuasive, had awesome power. Okay, with respect to the Johnson administration, and so forth, and Johnson, right? Yeah, he was the Johnson admin- he will, but he will not be remembered as a great secretary of defense because the Vietnam War, but had a lot, had the ability to handle a lot of information, which was persuasive and kept the American people kind of ambivalent about whether they ought to support the war or not support the war. You know, he was a, if you remember, the one thing I remember about him that he reminds me and maybe Ross Perot picked up some things from him was that he was so good with charts and graphs and things like that, you know.
2:22:52
SM: To the General Motors, because that was where he came from.
2:22:54
RJ: Yeah.
2:22:55
SM: And the- a whiz kid at General Motors.
2:22:56
RJ: Right.
2:22:57
SM: Of which, if you read that book, four of them killed themselves, committed suicide, of the original 10. [audio blip] Wizkid General Motors, where they came from, because he [audio blip] have the money in that position, why he went to, became Secretary of Defense to earn what? 50, 60 thousand, well he already made his money. But it was interesting that the four of the 10 killed themselves. [audio blip] Hubert Humphrey.
2:23:24
RJ: Great, again, great senator from Minnesota, too genteel for the country. At the time that he was coming out, people he, he was victimized by the ambivalence again, that people had about the Vietnam War, and so forth. He was victimized because he was trying to succeed I will say JFK, and I do not think that, you know, at that time, he just was history, the epoch in history where he was, did not allow him to in fact say, like, do what I think he has the potential to do. But then again, I do not think that he was ever, he was not electable in Calif- I mean, California was not going to be for him, Ohio was not going to be for him and things of this nature. He was a good senator, but he was not the one that dealt, he was not going to be able to operate on a on a national stage.
2:24:27
SM: How about George Wallace?
2:24:28
RJ: George Wallace, he repented, but I am not so sure he would have repented, if in fact, say like he had not been made a quasi, let us say, invalid. So then he did nothing good for the country at that time. I do not see any redeemable value that George Washington played for the country during that he was divisive-
2:24:55
SM: Wallace, not Washington.
2:24:56
RJ: I meant as I said, I mean Wallace. Yeah, you know what I meant, yeah, okay. George [laughter] George Wallace did at that time, okay, so consequently, that is one of the character traits that I would have to look at in terms of saying so called national leaders. And he was very divisive. He was a racist. Wherever he is now he is a racist, it is just that he is not, he is probably trying to in fact say, like, repent by virtue, obviously- he is still living right.
2:25:28
SM: Oh he is not very well.
2:25:29
RJ: No, I know, but just barely hanging on. Yeah. So then in that regard, wherever he is, now, he is at the core, I would like to think that he has forgiven himself and therefore is not a racist right now. Okay, he did make some statements that suggest, I read somewhere a few years ago, that he was not a racist anymore and this type of thing. But he was hustling, that was what he was doing. He found him a concept on which he could hustle and hustled that racist concept.
2:25:31
SM: Yeah. How about the Berrigan brothers and Dr. Benjamin Spock?
2:26:06
RJ: I think the priests- both of them were priests, right?
2:26:09
SM: Yeah.
2:26:09
RJ: Okay. I think they were committed to what they were doing because they took some real chances, in terms of being involved in actually violent demonstrations, were not there?
2:26:20
SM: Yeah, and they were responsible for burning the draft cards.
2:26:23
RJ: Yeah, I remember that. And then dumping blood somewhere, or at least some bolly blood, I do not know, if it really blood in some, one of the draft stations or something. I think they were very committed, okay, to what they were doing, and that they and to, in fact, go against the edicts of the church to do it, the Catholic Church. I think that they, that showed their commitment. They therefore would have to say, would be considered as somebody that did have an impact on ending the war. And but of course, you could say that they also had an impact on people having a bitter taste in their mouth about the war. Okay. Now Dr. Spock provided this catechism that insight, in my judgment, a lot of parents, he has reversed his field now. This permissiveness that he talks about and advocated. He has now run a recent talk shows as well, I have not read anything that he has done.
2:27:19
SM: He has a book out in 19, uh, came out a year ago, hardback.
2:27:23
RJ: Okay. Have you read it?
2:27:24
SM: No, I have not read it. They say he has, he has changed [audio blip]
2:27:29
RJ: I think that he was misguided. In terms of say, he gave people some real deleterious advice on how, about child rearing. There is no question about it. This permissiveness that we know of now, and what some parents are still hung up on, okay. Really did foster a lot of their misguided thoughts.
2:27:50
SM: How about Muhammad Ali?
2:27:52
RJ: Will go down in history as one of the greatest fighters, obviously, but a great humanitarian, who was extremely courageous. And because he was one of the first, he was the first public figure that spoke out and said he was against the ware, okay. So again, and that was very much, that was 19, I know I will not forget it, that was (19)63. When he was saying whenever he was drafted, he preempted the war. And when he was drafted, said that he was not going to go, if I am not mistaken, it was about that time.
2:28:27
SM: I think it was, I am not sure the exact time- you are right, though, everything- I am not sure the exact time he came to Columbus. When I saw him in Columbus. And when I was working at Ohio University, he had been stripped of his title.
2:28:39
RJ: Yeah.
2:28:40
SM: And he came to-
2:28:40
RJ: He came back.
2:28:40
SM: -the daycare center and he spoke at the Ohio theatre and what [inaudible], because man, the people of Columbus, well the sort of nature that that city was, they did not come out in large numbers.
2:28:42
RJ: No.
2:28:42
SM: I was there in an upstairs area, he was paid $5,000. It is a memory I will never forget. He spoke as a really good speech about his protest against the war in Vietnam. He did not talk hardly anything about boxing or anything, it was all about the war. And after it was all over, he took the $5,000 that he was paid and said, "I do not want anything here. You can take it." And that is the person he was.
2:29:11
RJ: And people never saw, they saw the flamboyant side that he was, but if you look at some of his history, and what have you, he had a heart of gold. Okay. And everybody saw him and but not everybody else has repented on him. History, the current contemporary history is being good to him and I think it is going to even be better to him, as was attested to his being selected to light the charge at the at the Olympics. Okay, I think that was symbolic of just how much the world loves Muhammad Ali.
2:29:44
SM: He is the most recognized person in the entire world.
2:29:46
RJ: That is right.
2:29:48
SM: John Kennedy is probably the second or third because they Kennedy and Muhammad Ali's pictures, like in villages all over the world in the smallest places. And when you think of it Kennedy, has been dead since (19)63. And Muhammad Ali has been out of the limelight since the late (19)70s. That is just amazing. I, you kind of wonder too what, if Muhammad Ali did not have Parkinson's disease, and he was able to speak, he would obviously be [inaudible] more mature, what he could be doing and helping today's society. I want to make sure I got a couple of key questions at the end and I want to make sure I do not use all of [ inaudible] getting down there. And that was my last, couple other names here, you can just, just a couple of brief words on all of them, Spiro Agnew.
2:30:06
RJ: Yeah [inaudible] No redeeming values [laughs] as I can see a whatsoever to the time that he was in office except to make people see how bad it could be.
2:30:46
SM: Okay. Sam Ervin.
2:30:49
RJ: Great man, I was very always intrigued by his simplicity. And that he could speak volumes with very, very parsimoniously and his use of a southern parable. And the way that he would always have kind of a self-demeaning type of humor about him, that lets you that will allow you to know that he has already seen where you are coming from.
2:31:18
SM: One of the important things, I got a couple of books by him and one of them is signed. And that is, that he was against integration.
2:31:26
SM & RJ: At one time.
2:31:28
SM: So, when you look at this, this senator who really no one knew about until sort of the latter part of his life, and see some of the people, there people always, that is another thing about today, you always got to find the negative in something, you can never, you cannot be perfect.
2:31:43
RJ: That is exactly right.
2:31:44
SM: John Dean.
2:31:49
RJ: John Dean was, he was at that time, I guess you could say, he was what you would consider where most boomers were at that period in their lives, and that is doing whatever was necessary to acquire power. And that was why I saw him, that he was being used, that he in fact cut a deal to save his neck obviously, as most people will do. So that is not anything that bothers me.
2:32:24
SM: [Inaudible] doing it now.
2:32:25
RJ: Yeah, that is exactly right. Cutting a deal to save his neck. And, but on the other hand, obviously very bright. Okay, but it was he had him a hustle and he was trying to get the best out of it.
2:32:39
SM: How about Daniel Ellsberg.
2:32:40
RJ: He had a lot of redeeming value in my judgment. He took he put his career on the line for what he was about, okay. And he knew that they were that there was going to be a backlash. The president cannot even get to a job in Washington, if you are blackballed. You know, it is just that powerful. If you blow the whistle, believe me, right now the president cannot get you a job. So then when a guy decides to do that, the only way the President gives you a job is that he says "Yes, I am going to put you on his staff or one of his [inaudible] staff, or get somebody somewhere else to give you a job" but you, it is hard to in fact say, once you a whistleblower, is difficult to get a job in the city.
2:33:27
SM: How about Barry Goldwater?
2:33:33
RJ: Goldwater I do not think was as bad as people thought he was when he came across as if though he was a, you know, a butthole. But I do not think he was as bad as people really thought he was at the time. I am not so sure history is going to be that bad to Goldwater, okay. When-when it was finally written, and people read it and do they interpretations. And if they look at the type of man that Goldwater was, and he did give a lot of himself to Arizona and things of this nature. He was very partisan, obviously. And that respect, he may not he was not-not going to be good for the country. But I think that is some stuff prior to his becoming Senator it is more speaks more about him, than when he became Senator. And his running for president was obviously about public relations disaster.
2:34:31
SM: [Audio blip]
2:34:39
RJ: Kind of say for example, I guess you can say that she was charming. She may got the she got the title of being kind of the, I guess you can say the maid of women's liberation and so forth, but in a way she was she was charming just enough to take away some of the credence from the women's liberation thing. I always thought that she was kind of manipulative, and that she really was not as staunch a feminist as she projected.
2:35:21
SM: And Ralph Nader.
2:35:24
RJ: I think Mr. Nader has done a lot for consumer protection. I really do, and for consumer causes. He lives what he preaches, he lives in a rooming house, you know.
2:35:34
SM: He does?
2:35:35
RJ: Yeah, he has.
2:35:36
SM: Where does he live?
2:35:38
RJ: I do not know where he live, but I know this. He lives in a boarding house. He has done this for the last 30 some years. He does not. I do not think he owns a car. You know, this type of thing. So, he is practicing what he is preaching, okay. So consequently, I got to in fact say there is some substance to a man that is practicing frugality, and right, and what have you, and living as I do not know what he does with the money that he makes, whether or not it gives it back to charity or what have you but he certainly does not seem to be in fact say-say [inaudible]
2:36:12
SM: I think that is all the names I had in the last, little area here is just mentioning Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin and musicians of the year and the impact they had on boomers.
2:36:26
RJ: Well, I think it was a fad akin to rock music- I mean, rap music. I think that the youngsters nowadays, who will into rap music, is will always have an affinity toward it, because it was the music of their era. Just like for example, the Temptations and say the Four Tops and the Supremes were to me. You see what I mean. Therefore, I think it would be that affinity and drugs have always been a part of the modern musician's life, so then we do not really see it, and we almost kind of accepted that they are going to get caught up in the drugs and that some of our favorite heroes are going to in fact succumb to it, just like right now. Of all of the original Temptations are dead, okay. And-and I do not think any of them, Melvin Williams died last year, year before last, the one that had to base voice. And-and I do not think he was, I do not believe he was 50. He may not have been 50, but now okay, the rest of them all gone. And because they were alcoholics and things and Jerry, not Jerry but David rough and you know, was-was that is crack addicts up there, Philadelphia.
2:37:42
SM: Yeah, I remember that.
2:37:43
RJ: Yeah.
2:37:44
SM: Yep. Here, we got a little bit left and I still got another tape if we go over here.
2:37:50
RJ: I am going to have to cut it now see because, I mean after [inaudible] I am going to have to make it I got to get back home to my- I tell my wife I would be back by that time, okay.
2:38:00
SM: What is the lasting legacy of the boomer generation?
2:38:02
RJ: I think, I really do think it is going to be kind of the, probably it is going to be the, the freedom the "I" and the "me," is and that is the infamous one that it will have. The quest for the freedom. I think I think it will get a bad rap about how their children are turning out. I think that they will, the boomer generation is going to be overall seen as-as being a poor parental generation. I think they will be seen as being money hungry. You know, like yuppy. Okay. I think the yuppies is in that generation, is not it?
2:38:58
SM: Yeah.
2:38:59
RJ: Yeah. So, I think they are going to be seeing-
2:39:00
SM: Younger. The younger boomers.
2:39:03
RJ: The younger boomers?
2:39:04
SM: Not so much the older ones. Yeah.
2:39:06
RJ: Yeah, if you take [inaudible] from (19)46 to (19)60, right? (19)64. To (19)64. Those are the boomers. Okay, now, if you take that group, and if you take a look at them from what I have in fact saying, they are going to be yeah money hungry, money oriented. That is how I think we are going to see it, power hungry, self-centered.
2:39:39
SM: Is that the-the activism that took part in the boomer generation has transferred to their kids?
2:39:48
RJ: I do not think that children are active at all. Maybe the most sedentarian social issues of any generation. Well since-since Brown versus the Board- well, that is it, that is two generations [inaudible] they-they are they are the children are definitely less active, socially active than their parents.
2:40:09
SM: What do you think it is when their parents? What-what?
2:40:13
RJ: Parents, they have not had a need.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Roosevelt Johnson
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Johnson, Roosevelt ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Psychologists; College teachers; Johnson, Roosevelt--Interviews
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<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Roosevelt Johnson was a psychologist, counselor, educator, and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D. at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana. Dr. Johson died in 2015."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson (d. 2015) was a psychologist, counselor, educator, and administrator. Dr. Johnson worked as a professor at Ohio State University, University of the District of Columbia in Washington, DC, and John Hopkins University. He also worked at private counseling centers in the Washington, DC area and Silver Springs, Maryland. He received his Bachelor's degree at St. Louis University and Ph.D. at the University of Illinois at Champagne-Urbana.</span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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ND
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.179a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.179b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.179c
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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160:18