167 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a6295d51a7ba0d1c80e4882bed976904.mp3 178552823551b2c659dea1f7330d8e85 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. OHMS Object URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cachefile=NergizTaha.xml Interview Format Video or Audio audio Date of Interview 15 April 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Nirgiz Taha Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 66:16 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Nirgiz was born in Dohuk. At the age of 6, Nirgiz and her family escaped from the cruelty of Saddam Hussein and came to the U.S. Nirgiz obtained her bachelor's degree and professional degree from Binghamton University. Keywords Kurdistan; Kurdish culture; Kurdish language; Kurdish Wedding; Eid; Religion; Saddam Hussein; Iraq; Turkey; United States; Binghamton University; Education; Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Nirgiz Taha Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 15 April 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 AD: Okay, so Nirgiz just give me your full name, and then let us just start like that. 0:13 NT: Okay. My name is Nirgiz Taha. 0:18 AD: Okay. And so- You were born in Kurdistan? Which town, like- 0:26 NT: As much as I know I was born in the city of Duhok, Kurdistan, Northern Iraq. 0:33 AD: And when was that? 0:35 NT: 1990, March 1990. 0:38 AD: Okay, and then, when did you move here? 0:43 NT: We moved here, we left Kurdistan in 1996. We made our way as previously stated we went to Slopeia. From there on we went to Batman, from Batman- 1:05 AD: You went to Turkey? 1:06 NT: Yes, we did not stay long. It was just through the whole process until we got here it was like a couple day trip on our way. 1:17 AD: Okay, okay. So, I mean- why did you leave, why did your family make that decision? 1:23 NT: There is just a lot of turmoil. You know the Kurds did not, even to this date they do not have a lot of voices especially back in those days in 1996. There is a lot of turmoil and chaos and my dad just felt like he needed to get his family to a better place to give them a better opportunity. So he took that opportunity to bring us to America. 1:52 AD: Okay, so how many siblings do you have? 1:56 NT: I have four brothers, all older than me and I have four sisters and I am in the middle of them. 2:05 AD: And so, are they all here? 2:07 NT: They are all here. 2:09 AD: So, you came as a family? 2:10 NT: Well, we were, there were nine of us, I mean eight of us brothers and sisters with my parents the ten of us came to America together. However, my youngest sister was born here in America in 2000. 2:28 AD: Oh! So, did you go to school in Kurdistan or Iraq, or let us say Duhok? Did you go to school, did you start school over there? 2:40 NT: From what my mother tells me I did go to school. I mean to be honest with you I do not remember at all, but she did tell me that I did go to school for like about three months or so. I started and they just took me out prior to coming here. 2:58 AD: Okay, so, you only spoke Kurdish at home over there? 3:06 NT: Yes. 3:06 AD: So, did your parents also know Arabic? 3:11 NT: My dad does. He speaks a little bit of Arabic, I mean he speaks Arabic, he understands Arabic. However, my mom does not. And my dad has never spoke to us in Arabic either, it was all Kurdish all the time. 3:24 AD: Okay, so the Iraqi government did not push you guys to speak Arabic. I mean you were okay obviously you were allowed to speak Kurdish? 3:41 NT: I, that question is kind of difficult for me to answer because I mean I do not remember what the restrictions were back then, and I told- to be honest with you to this date I have not spoken to either of my parents. I mean it is now a good idea to go back and ask them that question, but I never asked them whether there were any restrictions on their language. I am thinking they had a fear of using it but I do not know if there were any real restrictions on it. 4:11 AD: Okay, okay. So, your older siblings, what the age difference between you and like the oldest one? 4:20 NT: My oldest sibling is 32, 33 years I believe. 4:27 AD: So, you have quite a bit age difference. 4:31 NT: About 10, twelve- about 10 or 11 years between us, yes. 4:36 AD: So, he did go to school over there? 4:39 NT: He did. They had to learn some Arabic. I think They had learnt some Arabic but because they were young, because they were young as well I mean going to school was so inconsistent there as well, so my oldest brothers they kept some of the Arabic language that they learnt in school, they know how to write in Kurdish I mean all of that but because we were so young none of that stayed with us. 5:09 AD: Yeah, obviously. So the oldest brother was in high school or something when you guys moved here? 5:18 NT: Yes. 5:20 AD: About, right? 5:20 NT: Yes 5:21 AD: So how did your father make a living I assume your mother was a housewife to take care of nine kids. So what did he do, what was his job? 5:31 NT: My father I mean I still I have no idea what he did. I had no idea I mean I knew he worked in a US government agency because we were asylum, not refugees- 5:49 AD: Really, you were not refugees? 5:51 NT: We were not refugees we were basically we were asylum because of my dad’s, umm- 5:58 AD: So, he worked for a US government? 6:01 NT: Yeah, but I do not know what exactly, I have no idea what he did. 6:07 AD: So, he spoke English? 6:09 NT: No, no I think it was through his- I mean I just do not know but he worked he was not home a lot that is all I know from my mother. He used to- his work made it so that he was away from home all the time and had my mom taking care of us. 6:25 AD: Some kind of secret agency? 6:28 NT: No, not really. I just have no idea- 6:32 AD: He just had to travel? 6:33 NT: Yeah, a lot of travelling. 6:36 AD: So, but what did he do when he came here? 6:41 NT: That is the thing when we came here because of his language barrier and all of that he had to become a- he started working at the NYSEG as a labor worker because of the language he did go to school for a little bit but because of the big family he had to provide for his family so he just took on the job and has maintained that job for- until now. 7:09 AD: I see, I see. So, what is your parents’ education in Kurdistan? Were they able to go to school that is what I mean? 7:18 NT: Unfortunately, not. I mean because they were married at such a young age because of I mean- my mother’s story says that even that they had to get marry at such a young age and you know start a family and provide for the kids. They were not able to go to school. My mom did mention that she did go to some type of school for about six months or so, I do not know what exactly what type of school that was and if she you know if it was of any benefit but that was the maximum at seventeen years old. 7:56 AD: So as six years old do you remember anything like about- Do you remember your house for example in Kurdistan? Do you remember anything like were you lived? 8:10 NT: I remember bits and pieces. 8:13 AD: What do you remember? 8:15 NT: Like for instance I remember a couple of trips. You know being the young age I was remember a couple of trips that we as a family took together to our village in Gundi. Like, I remember those little things. I remember walking in the garden with my uncle sometime. I remember the night before actually we came here and how everybody was so upset, crying you know and I just felt like I was I mean I had no idea what was going on but you knew there was a lot of distress in the household, a lot of crying they are just bits and pieces. I do remember school, like me going to school and all my friends being there, being in uniform because we had to were uniform, like it is just bits and pieces it is not consistent. 9:29 AD: Yeah, so have you ever went back since you came here? 9:32 NT: I did, I have gone back only once in almost the twenty years that I have been here. I went back in 2009 and I totally did not know anything or anywhere in Duhok and you know things have completely changed even though I was so young, I even do not know what has changed but you know through my dad and my mom and their trips back in 2000 and their stories from when we lived there you can tell that it has come a long way from where it was. 10:12 AD: So, I cannot say what you missed about in Kurdistan because you do not remember so well but does your family talk about Kurdistan? Like how life was over there? 10:26 NT: Absolutely, absolutely- 10:28 AD: I mean, do they tell your stories about it and stuff? 10:32 NT: Yeah, a lot of the time we sit together as a family and you will see I mean all of a sudden you will hear my mom and dad start telling their stories and reminiscing about the past and all of these things that they went through all of the things that their parents went through, their siblings went through or even close friends that went through and so they do talk about a little a lot. it shows that they miss the home town they miss their family, because all they have here is us, their kids. They do not have any siblings here they do not have any parents here, they do not have aby aunts or uncles of any of that sort here. Neither do we outside of our parents, but they do talk about a little a lot. 11:24 AD: But there is Kurdish community here- 11:27 NT: - is a gift. 11:29 AD: But, the- so- but your status is different you were not a refugee, but you still had close contacts with them. 11:39 NT: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 11:41 AD: So, why did you come here? Did your father tell you or did you ask them, why here because there are other areas. 11:53 NT: Yeah, absolutely, when we basically left Kurdistan and you know went through different places, we went to Guam. It is an Island territory of the United States and we went there, we lived there for about nine months until they could find a place for us and we finally settled in Maryland. So, we were there for about good seven to nine months I believe, I forgot exactly what time, but we were there for a good time we thought that it would be our home in Maryland because there was a god, not a huge, but a good Kurdish population as well- 12:42 AD: Where in Maryland? Area- 12:45 NT: Rockwell- 12:47 AD: Okay. 12:47 NT: I believe it might be Rockwell, but I am not 100 percent sure. 12:53 AD: Okay, that is okay. 12:55 NT: So they had us even settled with a one of those volunteers who helps settle the family and she was able to help us out and never honestly thought, I mean we honestly we were trying to make it our home but my father had a friend here, a friend, very close friend who had known all his life back home in Duhok and his friend basically, he convinced him, convinced my father to move to Binghamton New York because you know there was a growing Kurdish population here and they were here, and because we did not know anybody closely in Maryland my dad figured it would be a good idea to move so in 1998; I believe we officially and we have been here ever since. 13:49 AD: So, it took you two years to settle basically? 13:53 NT: Basically, yeah. 13:55 AD: Yeah. 13:55 NT: Being their young is kind of hard to know exactly what, how we transitioned into Binghamton and all of that but you just taking the stories and you learn from that. 14:13 AD: Oh, yeah. So did your other siblings continued with their education? 14:21 NT: Yeah, they all continued with their education. I mean it was kind of difficult for them especially for easy it was easy to pick up on English, you know being young kids and all your mind is open. For them it was a little bit difficult but we still all are fluent in English right now, so I mean- it did not have a huge toll on us, you know the whole moving, they did go to school, some were able to finish, some are still continuing like me and some others. So- 14:58 AD: I see, I see. So how do you like your—So this is actually your life. This is what you learn right? This is what you are accustomed to, so do you have close ties with Kurdish friends or do you have other friends? How is it? 15:23 NT: It is kind of for me is a different story than a lot of the other Kurdish— 15:29 AD: Okay, will we hear your story? 15:31 NT: Yeah, absolutely, that is what I am saying like for me in middle school and high school I always saw that the Kurdish girls who were always very close to each other, like we were very close to each other because we felt like that we had only each other to lean on we knew each other’s language, so you know, at the core, we were very close, but I always wanted be like either on my own or just I was too focused on my school I just did not want anything take away my focus on that so, as we got a little bit older, the ties that some of the Kurdish girls had together I did not have those ties with. I do have Kurdish friends and I do have you know friends from other nationalities and ethnicities but I just, I was not as close to them as they were to each other, and even to this date like a lot of my close friends are American, but I do speak a lot of them, a lot of the Kurdish girls still we keep in touch. 16:46 AD: Of course, yeah. Because, so you arrived in 1996, and then in 2001 the 9/11 took place and there was the hatred towards Islam started to grow and stuff. Did you suffer from that? Because clearly you are Muslim right? 17:16 NT: Yeah, I mean there were some time, even that I was not very young but even during that tragic event there were some time people were giving us hard time call as Arabs, you know tell us to go back to our country, but I felt like unlike a lot of people, I will swear, me personally I was lucky because I had a good group of friends they were not very judgmental, you know, they were the outsiders, not the outsiders, you know people I did not speak to, students I never spoke to, I did not know of, who would tell me tell us Kurdish or the one especially with the hijab because a lot of my friends did not were the hijab, they did not get a lot of the remarks that we did because they were not wearing the hijab. But I felt like I was lucky even to this date through middle school, through high school I just felt like I had good friends that were not very judgmental. 18:39 AD: Because I do not think anyone really knows what Kurd is in this area right? 18:45 NT: No. 18:45 AD: I mean, so that there is like no problem there. Right? 18:53 NT: Well, yeah- 18:54 AD: There is no problem there like you do not have to worry about it but then there this sentiment towards, I mean for guys because you can tell right? But for girls this is harder so that is why I want to ask you because when Ridwan and Jotiyar were talking and they were like we do not know what women are going through but obviously, that is why I want to ask you this question. 19:28 NT: I mean, sometime it is easier than other time being only twenty-three years old you have seen something you always feel like people who do not know you are looking at you differently and are judging you. You go places and because of the media have you been everything, you know everything that is being happening you just feel like the eyes are on you. You just tell yourself how is this will ever change, is this ever going to change? Will people realize that somebody is innocent looking could be. So it is difficult. Sometime being at the university with other educated students there are not many looks that what you go elsewhere you feel like all eyes are on you. So situations are different, places you go are different, being a women especially wearing hijab a lot of, a lot of the time people take the hijab to mean in totally different thing. 20:47 AD: Yeah, this is my curiosity. That is my personal like where I was working this on collection, or you know being from Turkey, I know a little bit about Kurdish culture I do not see much difference really, to be honest with you, and it is like you know everything is like. All when I look it the craft is so colorful so lively, but I notice something you guys all wear black. Why is that? Tell me, explain that to me. I am just so curious. I almost ask your mother, but the time was running out so why is that? 21:36 NT: I mean, from my personal- 21:45 AD: You can tell what color I like, my taste is black, but is that just you Nergiz, everyone I see is wearing black, and I do not see any red for example, or yellow I do not see anything colorful and I know it is in the culture because I look at the crafts. Forget about anything, SO why you guys were all black, I not that, I love it but I am curious, is there a reason? NT: Not from me, no, but I love black because I feel like it goes even if you add a little bit of color to it goes with everything, black goes with everything, everything goes with black that is why I were it. No, I love color. 22:39 AD: There is no reason? 22:41 NT: No, but you never notice your other friends all wearing black? 22:44 AD: I will be probably noticing that now, but I do not think there is anything behind it I just feel like- 22:51 NT: Like your mother that day she was all black. 22:55 AD: She was that day, and she usually is, but at that time even now, back then, back even a couple of years ago for funeral all they wearing was black and, they were black a lot of the time to show respect to the sadness and all of that, but now they to bring less sadness upon the family- 23:24 AD: But not the men, I am talking about women. 23:28 NT: I do not think there is anything behind it I just think they love the color. 23:35 AD: I love black, you can tell, 95 percent of my wardrobe is black. I mean I hardly wear any other color I think is the noble color, I love it I just noticed because I know it is really lively, really vivid colors, and then I am like why I do not I see those colors in this community, so it is just a coincidence. 24:06 NT: Yeah, I should ask. For me I just like a lot. 24:16 AD: So, how do you guys live? You live at home with your family? 24:24 NT: We do live at home yeah. 24:26 AD: How it your family setting, your mother continues, your parents I should say, continues to live like they are caring the housel like in Kurdistan, like Kurdish up-bringing in Kurdish culture, rules tradition whatever. So you are in America but living like you are in Kurdistan. How is life in your house? 24:59 NT: I mean it is, we do live in America but we are very keen on our culture as well we do not like to forget especially my mom and dad their intention when they brought us here was to for us not to forget our language and unfortunately even though I do not know how to right in Kurdish or Arabic, I still I speak Kurdish fluently as well as I do in English. At the beginning the first couple of years when we went to school and we speak English a lot, our Kurdish kind of faded away but my mom and dad made sure that that was not going to happen so they speak to us all the time in Kurdish not even a second. We speak to each other in English, but you know- 25:57 AD: The siblings? Really- 25:58 NT: Yeah, we do because it is easier, even though we all fluent in both languages it is kind of just like a flow with English it is flow, with Kurdish I think we kind of have to think about it- a little bit of what we are saying, whether what are thinking is coming out exactly- 26:23 AD: Or may be sometime you mixed, I do that. 26:25 NT: Yeah, exactly. 26:26 AD: You do that right? Mixing English and Kurdish. 26:31 NT: Yeah, a lot, but the dressing, my parents were never strict on us on our dress code. I do not wear pants or sweats a lot like when I am on the move and I have a lot of errands to do, I usually, I would rather be comfortable but 95 percent of the time I am wearing either dresses or skirts. My sisters that have a different taste, you know. We each have our different taste but two of us are skirt and dresses all the time, the others pants and dresses whatever their taste is but my parents just never wanted us to forget our language. They also did not want u to forget our Kurdish identity. They talk to their families all the time and you know, even though we have been back a couple of us have only been back once, they want us to maintain those family ties not to forget our uncles and aunts and grandparents. So, it is important, you know the food is Kurdish, the language is Kurdish- 27:53 AD: So, what about breakfast for example, my experience like when I go to Turkey eat Turkish breakfast but here, some people do not eat breakfast, I am one of them, but when I am in Turkey, and I love it. What is the breakfast. Do you eat American way? Do you eat cereal for example for breakfast? 28:23 NT: We do, I mean I do if were in a rush, and you know- 28:30 AD: What is a Kurdish breakfast? 28:32 NT: Kurdish breakfast is, there is a traditional yogurt, plain yogurt that is home-made. My mom, my parents would not bring anything else into the house They do not like processed yogurt, they have to make it at home. But you have that their Kurdish style vegetable sautéed vegetables where there is eggplant or- 29:03 AD: For breakfast? 29:05 NT: Sometimes yeah- 29:05 AD: You eat eggplant for breakfast? 29:10 NT: They sauté eggplant and if ever- 29:14 AD: So, with tomato sauce or something- 29:22 NT: Just fry up or sauté onion and then your eggplant and just let them really Sautee and you cook it down to simmer them. But usually I do not do the cooking, 29:40 AD: But you do the eating- 29:42 NT: I do the eating but I mean I love cooking. 29:48 AD: So, for yogurt some vegetables sautéed— 29:53 NT: Tahini, there is some jam and- 29:59 AD: Do you also have this [I think what is it] molasses? 30:04 NT: Yeah, yeah. 30:04 AD: How do you call that in Kurdish? I will tell you how we call it in Turkish, pekmez, you do not use it? 30:17 NT: Dushav, they call it dushav. 30:19 AD: So, you mix that molasses with tahini, that is the way we do it. 30:25 NT: Yeah, they love that. 30:28 AD: And then you dip it with your pitta bread, 30:33 NT: Yeah pita bread, my mom cooks and my mom still bakes. Bakes bread Kurdish bread yeah. My- both ways, the one that the whole wheats the- 30:47 AD: Yeah, yeah- she cooks- 30:48 AD: Have you seen that? 30:50 AD: Where does she cook that? 30:51 NT: She brought hers. A friend of her sent her- 30:55 AD: Tell your mother I am coming for breakfast- 30:56 NT: Come, definitely! Oh my God, come. 30:59 AD: Oh, my God, that is difficult. 31:02 NT: When they do it they make a lot because you know it takes a lot, very time consuming, like at least five hours to like get through it. But she also makes other type of white bread. It is also a Kurdish style, but she does that with just a regular oven, you know a lot of kneading and you know there are like. But she has been known for her bread. 31:37 AD: Really? So does she do it alone or you guys help her or does she get friends to help her? 31:40 NT: No, never friends, she used to be able to do it by herself but now my sister in-laws usually help her, if they are not there I will help her, but you know- 31:54 AD: But I think is more funny if you do it in a group right? 31:57 NT: Yeah, she does not have the kick to her life, even though she is young, she is fifty-one. 32:18 AD: She is not old at all. 32:20 NT: Because she just have been taking care of all of us, a lot of the stories she told she has been through a lot with us back home and was basically not saying this with any intention but she single-handedly raised us because my dad’s job you know, working away from home a lot. So with her, sometimes, sisters were helping her out but you know she single handedly raised all of us. She just fell like that took a toll on her- 32:59 AD: That is why she is strong, you know what I mean, that makes people strong, definitely. We can always go back and then once I figure out what she talked about you help me with that. Okay, and what I want to do is like read the script and then come up with new questions to get her full story out, because she likes to talk and that is great, and that also happen, you do not end with one interview if people want to continue like if you have more questions you ask the permission and they say sure I want and that is no problem and you go back and then ask more details, questions and stuff, definitely we can do that. 33:58 NT: Breakfast and lunch are Kurdish and of we are on the go, we are in hurry, we do have our cereals, sandwiches, salads but even if there is like leftovers like dolma, other Kurdish food like bryani and all of that stuff if there is leftover from that they will be our half lunch. 34:31 AD: Exactly, so how about like celebrations like Eid and some other like Newroz, is there any other particular celebration for Kurdish culture? I mean Eid is religious, Newroz is cultural, totally Kurdish. Is there anything else? Like community to get together. 35:00 NT: May be because I am here we do not but you know, I mean this is also another religious thing but the Kurds are also begging on it but birthday of our prophet Muhammed. It is also a religious thing but the Kurds are also big in it, but the um the birthday of our prophet Muhammed. 35:21 AD: I think we call it kandil in Turkish, I do not know how to say it in obviously there is no word for it in English- So in Islam there are especially like Berat- What is it? 35:40 NT: I do not know, I know what you are saying but I do not know. 35:43 AD: So, the birth of Muhammed is one of those right? What is the name for that? They are all Arabic names obviously. There are so many names. In Turkey we call it simit like little circled pastries you sell those or you make helva for those days. 36:15 NT: There is a lot of treats. This year especially my mom made baklava I mean, they make baklava, and they also bought a lot of treats and my mom made bread we took that around for different families but you know but usually they just go and by a lot of store-bought goodies and make bread and they will give it around the different fan- different families- 36:39 AD: Yeah, yeah. 36:40 NT: But you know, but usually, usually they just go and buy a lot of, you know, store-bought goodies, or, you know, make bread, and they will give it around the difference- 36:53 AD: Okay. Oh, I know one thing a- but I do not know- [door knocking] Yes, come on in. come on in. I told Leslie to come. 37:02 NT: Yeah, yeah. 37:05 AD: Good timing, because we are just talking about the food 37:13 Leslie: Oh, I love food. I love food. 37:15 AD: Have a seat. So, um, do you know aşure, are you familiar with that name? It is kind of oatmeal but it like barley all these things—I know or may be that is Alevi tradition in Turkey. Because it is a Turkish tradition but it is also. Okay, so I was just trying to pull out more Kurdish because, and also, I think the geographic region affects the culture probably you celebrate something based on Iraqi tradition like versus Kurdish population, those things. You know what I am talking about? 37:59 NT: I understand yeah- 38:01 AD: I think region also affects- 38:03 NT: Probably does, I would not I mean I cannot speak on Kurdistan, you know themselves but you know just being here and seeing how things are celebrated or how things are run here that where I am getting these things from but I do not know, maybe they have different traditions. They even make a bigger deal out of it than we do here but I do not know what the differences might be. 38:41 AD: So basically, you celebrate Newroz and then Eids. Those are the main celebrations? 38:48 NT: Those are the main celebrations- 38:50 AD: How about weddings? That is big right? 38:52 NT: Yeah, those are big. We have not had, I mean usually because this is not a huge community like Nashville or San Diego, Texas, there are not that many couples getting married everyday— 39:08 AD: We will maybe we will come and dance, right? During your wedding. [laugh] 39:15 NT: But they are big celebration like the whole community, it is one of those times that the whole community actually gets together from those two nights, you know for the henna— 39:25 AD: Oh, you do it? 39:27 NT: Yeah. [laughs] 39:28 AD: She likes that. Please let us know so she can put her make up on. Yeah, also you do that a night before the wedding? 39:39 NT: The night before the wedding. The next day is the ceremony. The whole— 39:45 AD: Henna night is separate right? 39:48 NT: It is separate— 39:52 AD: Just for girls? 39:50 NT: Actually, now it is not, now it is almost combined. 39:52 AD: But generally, it was, right? 39:54 NT: Yeah it was just for the girls and even now back in my family back home they usually do that. They have the ladies in one room, then they go take care of the guy all in one room. But here because there is not, you know, I do not know whether it is difficult to get a place or difficult timing-wise to get everybody together. They just set it so that everybody just meets for night. And the ceremony in the next day. 40:27 AD: I have been in a henna night for Kurdish community in Germany. They do it together. They do not separate. So the bride- what color does the bright wear? 40:41 NT: She chooses the color of her choice now. 40:45 AD: Not red? 40:47 NT: No, I mean like it was used to be like whatever color, but now just they choose the color of their choice for their henna night, we call it Shev Khena. And then the next day it is just a regular modern white dress. 41:08 AD: Oh my God, so it is westernized! 41:11 NT: Very much. But you know for the henna--- 41:15 AD: How about in Kurdistan, is it that westernized? 41:18 NT: Yeah, it is. The dress like for instance for me you know the guests, the girls will wear their Kurdish clothes absolutely, we usually frowned upon anybody who comes in without Kurdish clothes, we are like this is a wedding, what are you doing, where are Kurdish clothes. No matter what they wear outside, we, like, for everybody to wear their Kurdish clothes to represent you know, to just that one day and night for them to wear, but the bride, you know, Shev Khena she does wear the Kurdish clothes but for the wedding she wears her white gown. 41:57 AD: Wow, that is interesting, it is interesting. So, weddings are the big event, the biggest, right? 42:10 NT: They are. I mean they are, hopefully we are trying to make it so that either Eid or Newroz is the biggest event of the year but, you know, they used to be, everybody used to look forward to just going to the weddings because that is where, that is the only celebration, you know the big celebration that they have for that year, for the month or whatever. 42:34 AD: So, do you guys marry other people, or you just marry with among each other? What I mean is like the Kurds marry Kurds, or do you guys marry American? 42:41 NT: I mean I have heard of a couple of people married outside their Kurdish ethnicity and, you know both couple they have not worked out, I mean, I am not saying I know everybody, but you know, the ones I have heard have not worked out but we usually, especially my family is very, very big on Kurds marrying Kurds, and especially somebody within the village and a lot of the people I know hear the Kurds who have been married they have known. [only Kurds] AD: Let us say Erdem, I wish you will see him, let us say Erdem likes one of the girls in this Kurdish community. Is he welcome? I mean he is Kurdish. He is not from Kurdistan, he is Kurdish. 43:36 NT: Well a lot of the things that are going, a lot of the time now with through all the social media and all of that stuff, a lot of the times, it is not parents who get the say. Of course, absolutely it is important that they are okay with it, but you know they have given more openness or- 44:29 AD: Yeah, they are more open-minded— 44:30 NT: open-minded maybe- [No, no pictures no, I look awful, I look awful, I should not trust them] But it really depends on the family. It really depends on where exactly they are from and what their beliefs are. Some of them more strict than others. So he can be welcomed in some places but he might not be welcomed in others, so it just depends. 45:05 AD: The batteries low- so you are lucky. 45:09 NT: I will come back next time just for photos. 45:10 AD: No, we took some photos, with Adam’s. Actually, I am using your mom’s photo for something- And a little section of her interview. Tell her she will be happy. Yeah, so, how are we doing time-wise. It is almost a little after noon. You are still good? 45:40 NT: Yeah. 45:40 AD: How much more time? 45:41 NT: Twenty minutes or so. 45:42 AD: Okay. Alright, good. Let us see, what else. So we talked about marriage and all that. So let me ask you a little bit about political questions. Are you following politics, what is going on for the Kurds? 45:48 NT: I usually do not because, the reason behind that is, I mean, a lot of political news that I can take here, look up here, I am able to understand, I am able to do my own research and understand the English language and I understand what is going on, but you know, you go on to google or you go on to Kurdish site it is all Kurdish. I do not know how to read it, I do not understand it, and although I know my Badini language fluently, the news from Erbil to Duhok is too different [Dialects], completely different but they speak formally on the news and I do not follow it. So I have a hard time. 47:05 AD: So, what is the formal Kurdish dialect? Is it Sorani? 47:09 NT: No, no. That I am completely not able to understand, but for Erbil they use how like Jotiyar and them call it ‘Asli. It is Kurdish without any Arabic influence, like you know- 47:29 AD: Asli, I understand. 47:31 NT: Yeah. 47:32 AD: Purified. 47:33 NT: Yeah, purified Kurdish. I mean, surprisingly I do not understand it all. My dad, Jotiyar, my brothers, Zeki they understand it. My mother understand it. They know what they are saying, but I just even you know speaking Kurdish I have a hard time following this purified Kurdish versus western influence Kurdish. 48:00 AD: Maybe we can say, high Kurdish, is that right? Would that work? More formal- 48:09 NT: I just, yeah it is like more formal. The Kurdish we speak I feel like is a more everyday language. 48:19 AD: Exactly because I know what you are saying my native language but I am capable of reading and writing, I can read anything, I mean it is my first language. I did not come here at the age of six, I came here with a college degree. So exactly, but like my daughter she speaks Turkish, she is learning, she is improving but I do not think she will ever have that kind of Turkish. You know what I mean. She can communicate, but she is not going to be able to sit down, read or follow the news. I mean she can follow the news here at this age, but she cannot follow it over there. Yeah, I understand. 49:19 NT: I mean it has become a lot better, a couple of years ago some of the things even my mom and dad would say, you know I would be flattered, and I would say what they are talking about, but now I have that sense every time I hear a word I do not know I actually ask, and I actually I am like what is this, you know they explain to me what she mean. So that hass become easier. It does tend to get easier over time with the language but still I will not be able to tell you if I were to look at the news and you tell me to translate I will never be able to tell you that. 49:59 AD: Also, I am curious Nergiz what is your position. You know it is like, that the following the world’s politic and stuff, but what is happening the Kurds in Turkey, Kurds in Kurdistan and Syria. You know what I mean, this biggest minority group in the world and they have been put down by so many countries for so long, like a lot of this happening in Turkey and stuff, so do you follow all that? Do you guys talk about it? 50:42 NT: I do not, I am like I know bits and pieces of the politics right know, you know I mean I knew, reading up on the Kurdish – Turkish relationship I knew that it was not very good and it is still unstable like getting better of course but it is unstable. I just did not know it to what extent you know, the relationship was like until I read about it. I hear different stories about what happened between them and between Syria and Kurdistan, the Kurds in Iran and the Kurds and the Arabs, you know the Iraqis themselves, but to say that I follow the politics I honestly do not. I try to be open-minded I know a lot of the times people tell me you know what, why, you know the older generation, it might be the older generation, it might not be, it depend on who you talk to, whether they are educated or they are open-minded or they are not open-minded and they will ask you are you doing that why are so open-minded of that, be scared of this and be scared of that and I just feel like I tell them if we continue this hatred or if we continue this tension it will never go away. It has to stop somewhere; it has to start to with people like us trying it different. But you know there are close-minded people still, there are still a lot of tensions, and you can definitely see it, I just try to stay away from it. 52:46 AD: But you are a member of the local Kurdish community and the organization. You are aware of your culture and your history obviously, right? So but I mean nobody is, and this whole oral history project is not political. We just want to record everyone’s story. You know your story is different than obviously your mother’s story because she has a different experience although she is your mother, you know, so it is just, that is the beauty of it and then teaching others for this culture. So that was our main goals. I think that is really it Nergiz, I cannot think of anything else. Do you have anything? 53:46 Leslie: No. 53:46 AD: Do you have anything else? 53:47 NT: I mean not I feel like I have covered everything as well but it is just good to know, I have even looking back I think we could have done a better a job, you know, as Kurds could do a better job and you know bringing our name to light and more making ourselves known more but I feel like we are taking one step at a time and hopefully it all go in the right direction. 54:21 AD: I think so, and I think nothing can happen right away. This is how I feel. Things take time and I think I am like really impressed with the local organization. I think they are really doing a great job and you I think did a great job here at the university. These are all baby steps and that was what we do. This is a baby step too, but it is like we are just, it is growing slowly and surely, that is the best thing to do. But thank you so much for coming here and we will be more than happy to talk to your other siblings. [laugh] no I mean seriously, your mother is like- what is your oldest brother doing? Is he very busy? 55:13 NT: Oh, Zeki? 55:14 AD: Zeki is your brother? 55:17 NT: Yeah, Zeki is my oldest. 55:20 AD: I told you. 55:22 NT: Zeki is my oldest. 55:24 AD: You are kidding me? 55:26 NT: No, he is my oldest brother. 55:28 AD: Oh, we already talked to Zeki. Yeah, okay, never mind. So you guys did great as a family. 55:39 NT: Thank you. 55:40 AD: Oh, Zeki is your oldest brother? I did not know. 55:44 NT: Yeah. 55:44 AD: He told me and I was like no, I do not think so. I am like he is one of the community members 55:50 Leslie: I should be second guessing myself, so I was just like, okay. 55:53 AD: Oh my God, but you do not look like- I did not even think about it. 56:07 NT: Oh yeah, he is my oldest and Avras- he is older than me but he is my younger brother. 56:12 AD: Wait a minute, Avras is your brother? 56:16 Leslie: I told her that too. 56:18 AD: And I have been denying. I think you and Avras look so much- a lot, more than Zeki. 56:27 NT: Yeah, the girl- my sister, did you see my sister the other one next to me? That is his twin. 56:34 Leslie: Really? 56:35 NT: Yeah. 56:36 AD: Really? 56:37 NT: Yeah. 56:38 AD: But look, you look like Avras, she looks like Zeki right? 56:43 NT: Everybody says that. 56:45 AD: Listen! Oh my God. I did not know, so your whole family is adapted the entire organization. 56:55 NT: [laughs] Yeah, well- we with Karwan, you know- 57:00 AD: Do not tell me Karwan is your brother— 57:02 NT: No, no, no, we just, we feel it is so important for us to get these Kurdish clothes out, as we said before we are trying to get more people come join our force, our little force but you know, for people to come in join our group, but it takes them a little more time to. So I figure the more we can do the more we can show that, may be they will start opening up more. 57:20 AD: Do you know what Nergiz all the, I am so grateful to your entire family but that would be perfect to talk to your father. I bet his story would be like very, very interesting. 57:50 NT: My dad is in Kurdistan until June 6th or so. 57:59 AD: That is okay. 58:03 NT: He is there visiting his father but— 58:07 AD: Yeah, when he comes back because he was travelling probably exposed to so many other things. I think his story will be just so wonderful, you know very interesting. So may be when he comes back, Erdem is planning to be here this summer, we will see. 58:31 NT: Okay. 58:31 AD: So, in Kurdish. Even if Erdem, see the only bad thing is I can do it with your help but when he is saying something I am not going to be able understand, and what I am going to ask a question he already talked about. That is the only thing. NT: I mean I figured my mom understood Erdem when she was speaking to him and I feel like my dad will be able to understand him. 58:42 AD: As long as you are in the room I think Erdem can ask you if he has difficulty, asking the questions or something like that- 59:13 Leslie: I mean I can even help too. 59:16 AD: That is right, that is wonderful, the whole family. 59:23 NT: We are trying to do our part I think it is important- 59:30 AD: I think you guys are doing it, I mean doing great, really. That is really, really good. 59:35 NT: Yeah, I should have talked about- there is some things. 59:40 AD: What is it? 59:42 NT: No I was just saying because a lot of my friends like I can ask a lot of my friends to do this, they are just so busy, I mean not busy because I feel like if I am busy then, you know I will text them and I will see you are either taking me with Lesley, sometime but I just do not know why— 1:00:11 AD: But really more than your generation it is your mother’s and your father’s generation- I do not want to call them all because they are my generation obviously but it is like, because they have the experience or someone like Jotiyar, Ridwan because you’re so young you do not remember anything. I mean we still want to talk to young people like you, because then what I ask about your experience here, you know growing up as a Kurd in America. That is another part of our—so if you can ask you friends that will be great. 1:00:53 NT: Okay, yeah, I mean, I understand your point too, but I feel like all of our stories or I can talk on behalf of all of my friends, the experiences have been the same, coming to America, going to school you know and growing up— 1:01:11 AD: But you said your point was like being successful like school, everybody have different experience going on— 1:01:21 NT: My dad emphasizes, he was telling us every day and every day that your main focus is school (X3), like he would emphasize that a lot and that is why I feel like a lot of us have been Al-Hamdulillah a lot of us have been successful with school and have that mentality, you know have the school mentality. I can say the same thing for a lot of the people, not that they have not been successful but it was just school was not huge deal, you know their mentality was different so maybe they have a little bit experience and that way they are probably a little different that how I ‘ve been raised and grown up but other than that it is probably same same. 1:02:23 AD: Yeah, definitely. So are you the smartest in your family? 1:02:27 NT: Oh, I do not want to say that I am. I mean Avras is, they are just the boys are smart, they just do not like to imply- 1:02:35 AD: Avras is like a naughty boy. Was he naughty? He look like, his eyes I can say like mischievous, was he mischievous when he was little- 1:02:51 NT: Probably. 1:02:52 AD: He looks like he is the little mischievous, he still holds that look on his face. 1:02:56 NT: No, he the boys Zeki, Avras, and you have not met the other two but they are smart just the boys in Kurdish culture they do not like to imply themselves, they do not like to, as smart as they are, they do not like to imply that— 1:03:13 AD: In general, I think girls are different, they are like more focused. Seriously. So, Shiman is your other sister? 1:03:23 NT: Zhiman? Zhiyan- 1:03:24 AD: Zhiyan sitting next to you? 1:03:29 NT: Next to me yeah. 1:03:33 AD: She told me she is a teacher. 1:03:35 NT: She teaches right now, she teaches at future faces, I do not know if you are familiar with. It is called oh my God, they care for kindergartens, preschoolers, kindergarteners. So I think, I mean she teaches that level. He wants to continue but that was her, that was what she went to school for to teach and she wants to be able to teach English if ever go overseas or back home in Kurdistan. 1:04:12 AD: Does she want to go back to Kurdistan? 1:04:15 NT: She wants to- sometime and other times she is questioning— 1:04:20 AD: She is not sure- She is younger than you? 1:04:24 NT: No, she is older. 1:04:25 AD: She is older, than you! 1:04:26 NT: Then me and then I have two younger sisters. 1:04:31 AD: So, one is really young, the youngest is about Angelique’s age. 1:04:35 NT: Yeah, she is twelve. 1:04:39 AD: Angelique is ten, my daughter is ten. She is in middle school. And then the other one? 1:04:43 NT: She is coming to Binghamton University in the Fall. 1:04:45 AD: Really, what is she going to study? 1:04:49 NT: I have no idea. She wants to do something like me with medicals, pre-med or whatever but I tell her not to put pressure on herself until actually you see it, because I have put a lot of pressure on myself and my whole life. My whole life- I have put so much pressure on myself and I have taken on so many expectations like high standard of myself and all of that so I just with all that pressure I just tell her all the time I say do not put a lot of pressure on yourself, like live- because everybody tells me all the time you at way older than your age and I am just like I wish I did not do that— 1:05:36 AD: But you know what I was always like that, and I do not see that is a bad thing. 1:05:43 NT: No, it is not, neither, but you miss your childhood, I mean like you miss- 1:05:48 AD: But it is better than becoming looser- 1:05:50 NT: Yeah. [laugh] 1:05:51 AD: So, I think you are on the right direction- 1:05:56 NT: But I just tell her not to put a lot of pressure on herself and do what her heart- 1:06:00 AD: Yeah enjoy a little bit- Now I guess I think your time is up, I mean not my time, your time. Are you late? 1:06:03 NT: No. 1:06:04 AD: Okay, alright. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Nirgiz Taha Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5fee99b328a1db5e147a7b94f2eba928.mp3 34eb024bb12e420a71df5952d4808711 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 16 April 2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Leslie Cody and Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ridwan Zebari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:11 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio audio Biographical Text <span>Being part of the Zebari tribe, Ridwan has 8 sisters and 7 brothers. In 1991, he fled to an Iranian refugee camp on foot. He came to the States after marrying a Kurdish refugee who arrived later in 1996. Ridwan earned a Law degree in Kurdistan and received his master's degree in law from Syracuse University. He is an active member of the Kurdish community.</span> Keywords Kudistan; Kurdish Culture; Kurdish Diaspora; Religion; Iraqi Shia; Assimilation; European Kurdish Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Ridwan Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen and Leslie Cody Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 16 April 2014 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 AD: You are going to talk some good stuff. Okay, but I am going to ask you to sign it again, Ridwan, it is just a, oh see, if you are a lawyer, you read things before you sign it. 0:14 RZ: Yeah, you have to. 0:18 AD: That is right. 0:24 RZ: Why you want to do it, I have already done that. 0:48 AD: I know, the first time, but we are doing the second interview. 0:50 RZ: I do not have anything else to add. [laughs] 0:56 AD: No? 0:57 RZ: I said everything. 0:59 AD: Okay, here is the thing; As I am doing this project, Ridwan I am learning and I realized a lot of differences between countries, so now the questions will be very specific gear to Iraqi Kurds, because when I was first time talking to you it was more like in general and I had this image of Kurds from Turkey and there is a quite a big difference between like- 1:32 RZ: Yeah, you could say that. 1:35 AD: So, having said that as you know in Turkey because of the republic, the main, the approach toward the minority was like assimilating them, but in Iraq, thing like little different like I am not going far back I am just taking after the World War II especially like the constitution of 1958 with that constitution the Arabs and Kurds like all, according to the constitution they were considered associates in Iraq, right? 2:28 RZ: Yeah, that is true. 2:31 AD: See, if you are especially interviewing with a lawyer. 2:34 RZ: Yeah, you mean that you came to the implication it is different. 2:40 AD: So that is my question. 2:44 RZ: That part has never been applied it is just ink in the paper, on the paper. 2:51 AD: So, my question was even though the constitution stated that in reality were Arabs and Kurds partner in the nation. 3:04 RZ: This was the constitution said, yeah. 3:07 AD: But was it the reality? 3:09 RZ: No, it is not, it was too far from that, yeah. 3:12 AD: Okay. 3:12 RZ: What they called, there are new Kurds in the government like minister or, the government established some, some institutes like they call autonomous areas legislative and executive branches, but the government, the regime let us say they put in that branches their people and their men and whoever they wanted not elective people from let us say common people, no they put their friends. 4:07 AD: But Arabs not Kurds. 4:09 RZ: No Kurds, they had to be Kurds, but the Kurds that who they wanted to not anybody that wanted to candidate himself with let us say be elected by people, no. They put some people. 4:28 AD: They pick the nominees. 4:30 RZ: Yeah, they put whatever they want. 4:32 AD: So, it was not very democratic? 4:39 RZ: Not very, there was no democratic. 4:40 AD: No democracy. 4:41 RZ: Nothing, yeah. 4:42 AD: So, could we say that there was a cultural autonomy, or the Kurds had a cultural autonomy, 4:47 RZ: No, not even cultural actually, 4:49 AD: Not even cultural. 4:50 RZ: No, because they even did not let Kurds to educate in their language let us say in the school educational institutions they did not let Kurds study their language, in some cities Yeah they did but the people demonstrate and they opposed the government and they let them have some Kurdish schools in some cities; some big cities like in Erbil and Sulaimania, but in other areas even the education was in Arabic. 5:33 AD: In Arabic? 5:34 RZ: Yeah. 5:34 AD: That is important because I am specifically looking at those revolts and uprising to get some power you know like power relations within the Iraqi government so in what ways, for example you just said in Sulaimaniya and Erbil they revolted to get Kurdish Education and you said they got it. 6:01 RZ: Yeah, they had some Kurdish School, not all of them but some of schools and there was one Kurdish language class at university and that is it. 6:16 AD: And that is it. 6:19 LC: Like in what ways did they had uprisings? 6:25 RZ: What uprising? 6:26 LC: Like as far as revolting like education and stuff, like how did they get that? 6:34 RZ: Yeah, actually it was not like, the government I mean they did not give anything until they saw that the people were really serious, they are opposing the government policy, so they said let us give them some sort of autonomy like in education, in administration. 7:01 AD: Was something like let us shut them off, just a little bit. 7:04 RZ: Yeah, just keep them quiet, give them something they will be quiet. 7:08 AD: because there is like no political gain with that, right. 7:11 RZ: No, it was just- 7:14 AD: Politically Kurds did not have any power, is that what you are saying? 7:18 RZ: Yeah exactly, they did not have, they did not have anything. It was just something some sort of what they call administrative autonomy, they had local mayors even governor, but it does not necessarily mean that had to be Kurdish governor in the Kurdish city or Kurdish mayor, no but usually they were, but sometimes government transfer them to other place like in the south. 8:08 AD: Because the government, we all know Saddam’s government, I mean personally call a fascist government, so some sources said that there oppression even against Arabs, would you agree with that? 8:32 RZ: Yeah, there was against Shiite. 8:37 AD: But they are also considered religious minority in Iraq, right? 8:42 RZ: Actually, there are not minority, they are majority of the Arab, yeah. I mean speaking of Arab nation, yeah, they are the majority Arab in Iraq, but they were not in power, Sunnis were in power, Saddam and his group, so they, what they call, they killed Shiite too. Because they thought that Shiite more is related to Iran and closer to Iran especially in 1980s there was a war between Iran and Iraq so Saddam was thinking Shiite helping Iran in this regard and religious men did not make a fatwa against Iran, because some other scholars they made fatwa that fighting Iran is Jihad or Halal but Shiite did not do that, so they killed some other Shiites like al-Hakeem, I think and Sadr. Yeah. 10:09 AD: So, they were mistreated just like Kurds you would say. 10:13 RZ: Not like Kurds but- 10:16 AD: Not as much but? 10:18 RZ: Because they were not like Kurds, they were not opposing the government, there were some heads of Shiite they opposed the government but common people they did not do, they were like Iraqi citizens, they did not do like what Kurdish did, that way. 10:40 AD: What did Kurdish do? 10:44 RZ: They did a lot. They were not accepting the regime’s policy I mean whatever regime said they did not accept it. Especially Kurds were in the mountain, I mean it is easier for them to fight with the government and hide in the mountains, yeah it was easier for them, but for Shiite in dessert. 11:15 AD: Okay, so all that started in recent history we are talking about, we are not going back to Ottoman period because- 12:29 RZ: When you go back to far to Ottoman or during the British colonialism in the Arab countries be there was, the people who governed the country were not Arabs, say the people during the Ottoman empire belonged to Ottoman empire not Arabs, even they were Arabs but they were not Arab nationalism, they belonged to another bigger thing, Ottoman Empire. Same thing during the Britain colonialization; it was Britain taking care of everything but not Arabs, even in that time Kurds had a special opinion or special situation but I mean what happened after 1960s and (19)70s. 12:58 AD: Starting this constitution and all of that- 13:06 RZ: Yeah, after the, especially after the Baath party came to power, they started doing whatever they did against the Kurds and other nations. 13:18 AD: Is that constitution created during that Party, Baath Party time? 13:21 RZ: No actually before the Baath party, but it did not take long before the Baath party came to power. 13:24 AD: It is after Abdul-Kareem Qasim? 13:25 RZ: Yeah, Abdul-Kareem Qasim, he came to power in 1958. 13:29 AD: So how do you consider him? 13:34 RZ: I do not know much about him because it was, yeah, I read something about him in the history or I heard something from other people, fathers and grandfather. He was not that bad like Saddam, other people came after him, he was in the beginning of the republic, before that it was kingdom; Iraqi Kingdom, but after that Iraq became republic, and he was the first president, he was better than Saddam, let us say. Yeah. 14:25 AD – Okay, uh. 14:25 LC: We pretty much covered all this. 14:27 RZ: Sorry. 14:38 AD: Yeah because you said the language was Arabic in school. 14:42 LC: We should talk about the diaspora. 14:49 AD: Okay, now, I am going to ask you something about Diaspora. 14:54 RZ: Go ahead. 14:55 AD: Because currently there is not really, well not yet let me put it that way, there is not much about Kurdish Diaspora in the United States but there is a lot of work done in Europe from either Iraq or Iran or Turkey Kurds relocated to various European countries and their experiences over there, so now I am gonna read something to you. I know this guy I talked to him via email. He is from Turkey, and he has been living in Sweden for more than 25 years now. So, this is what he said about Sweden, he says: “When I came to Sweden, I liked this country a lot and I wanted to adopt it. I saw Sweden as my second homeland. Now I see myself as a Kurd, I see myself neither as a Swedish nor as an immigrant but as a Kurd who wants and wishes to go back. I do not feel any belonging to Sweden. I tried so much to make them as equal, but it did not work. Still after ten years they ask you where are from, do you miss your homeland, do you like Sweden. Now I know that whatever I do, I am net being accepted as an equal.” So, have long have you been in the United States Ridwan? 16:56 RZ: Six years. 16:57 AD: Six years. Okay, do you have similar sentiments like this guy like as a Kurd living in America? 17:11 RZ: I think this is his opinion, I do not think each Kurd feel the same way like he does in Sweden and everywhere. It does not mean that we came to here in America or any other country that we came here we want to live here forever. Everybody has something he wants to another country either, I mean some people wants to go and get better education, some people wants to go get a better job and better life. Some people I mean they run away from the political situation in the country because they have different political view, they belong to certain political party. They run away from the regime’s policy; I mean everybody has different reasons. 18:40 AD: But do you think your Kurdish identity is coming out in the society or people do not care where are you from, I mean in general what are your sentiments, do the people keep asking you those questions? 19:04 RZ: I think nowadays these are something you have to be worried about them much. I think human is getting like international identities right now. You live here today, your job is here, your work is here, tomorrow you may go some other country, you live there, you work there. I mean you do not have a clear identity; you do not care about identity as much as you care about wherever you feel comfortable, you get your life. Yeah, I think humans getting global identity more than, what they call a small global identity. Yeah that is my opinion. 20:11 AD: So, you do not feel like the otherness, like you are other. In here do you feel that do you feel like there is some kind of negativity attached? 20:29 RZ: I do not see anything like that here in America actually. I heard people like they are complaining in Europe and other countries but here I have not seen anything. 20:42 AD: You do not see that- 20:44 RZ: I do not see any difference between me and somebody that lived here and born here grew up here, the difference only, I mean, is personal. 21:02 AD: I mean there are some racist people everywhere in this world no matter you go but we are like dwelling on natural attitude of people here. 21:15 RZ: I have not experienced anything like that actually. I feel very comfortable here in this country. 21:34 AD: Okay. 21:34 LC: So, Ridwan do you feel like you, your family and like the other Kurdish people around here have not maintained their like Kurdish traditions and to what extent have they? Now that you are living here. 21:57 RZ: In our family actually they say, we do not feel like we are in a problem with our culture or with our identity. I do not see the situation that way. We still practice our cultural issue our cultural matter. There is not to concern about in this regard. And nowadays it is, in this like you have many ways to maintain your culture, your identity; you have internet, you can, I mean talk with your family, yeah on skype we see everything. This new world you will not lose anything if you want, unless if you do not care about it, just go I mean whatever you see, but if you wanna, you have many ways to do whatever you want. Now I could know much about every other culture not only my culture. When you check internet, you find anything you want, and yeah there are many say Kurdish channels, TV channels you could watch them, all day long. I think if you really want, you will not lose anything, you will be just like, not exactly like, but like other people live in Kurdistan. 24:07 AD: But then you have children, and they are, they were born here, and they will grow up here and so do you think things will take another turn for them a little bit. 24:24 RZ: I am not saying that they will be the same as we are right, no. But if they really want to, they will be good too. I mean their parents must tell them where they came from and how they came here and tell them a little about their culture. I think they will find their way to explore more about their culture and identity. 24:57 AD: So what do you observe, I am not talking about you; your kids are very young, when you look at local community members, Kurdish members and some probably they had their kids or the kids came in a very young age may be they are teenagers now, like do you see an influence like, are they like very Kurdish or do you see like American effect on them? 25:32 RZ: Not all of them, no, some of them yeah, they are like other people live here, like American, but not all of them, but even those who are go in a wrong direction they still have opportunity they could come back look other people do, their Kurdish friend what they do, what they belong to. 26:12 AD: How about, do you have any American friends or your wife? I am not talking about colleague at work, you know everybody has a colleague but do you have an American friend like you hang out with? 26:28 RZ: I personally do not have any American friend but my wife does actually, she does have. But I think it is not easy here to find a friend like a really close friend. I mean friends usually come from work or education, school somewhere, when you are done with your work or your school, your friendship gets less and less, I think. But my experience now six years, I do not know but I think American like that much friendship even with each other, they go what their job require, sometime they stay a little bit longer after they are done with their job but I mean in our country it is different. Friendship is different, and it is not associated with job or school. I mean, I still have friend we talk to each other often, I mean we have very close friendship even we have not worked together or we have not been ins school, but we know each other and we still know each other and have a good friendship, but here I do not see that way, here I think friendship come from either you work together or you have been at school together, may be after school a little longer then you forget each other, do not you think. 28:40 AD: Yeah, I agree with you, and I do not, it is not even Kurdishness it is I think geographically where we are coming from, there is like our ties is stronger, social ties. But this is a capitalist society and that is the end results. 29:01 RZ: I am not saying it is something bad or good but that is how it looks like, maybe here is better than we do. I mean you never know you the future this will be better. 29:18 AD: That is different, but like let us say your kids grew up, do you mind if they marry an American or what I mean American, could be anybody and could be Muslim from Pakistan or Turkey or whatever you know because there are issues; there is religious issue. 29:48 RZ: I know what you mean. 29:50 AD: Do you mind if someone? 29:52 RZ: I will try to tell them who we are and how we have to be, then if they decide to choose a different way, you do not have to force them to change that- 30:07 AD: But you are not gonna disown them like because they do not marry a Kurdish person from Iraq? 30:14 RZ: No, I would not do that I personally would not do that; I will tell them the reality, I mean the reality that we want, that we want to be. 20:26 AD: Your wish. 30:27 RZ: Yeah, but if they choose a different way, it is their choice I cannot force them. 30:32 AD: But in general, when you look at this society it is pretty conservative, right? Like what I- 30:39 RZ: Things are changing right now. 30:41 AD: It is changing. 30:42 RZ: Yeah, it is changing. Very widely change not like, I mean since let us say 19th century, I mean this twenty year it has changes more than a century before. Twenty years I mean from 1991 until now has changed a lot, not only in Kurdistan in I mean all other countries. 31:25 AD: Oh Yeah, in Turkey too. Did we cover all of these? Yeah, definitely, definitely. So, we asked all those questions because I have the other interview, but this was like very specific gear to Iraqi society. 31:48 LC: And this is not necessary. 31:49 AD: No-no. 31:50 LC: And I do not know. 31:51 AD - Well we kind of talked, things have changed that is what he just said, but you are, what I see like over these interviews, the ones I have been part of it or the ones that I did not participate that Leslie transcribed and I listen but come out is the Kurdishness, you know the Kurdish identity and I think this all goes back to history because especially really Ridwan in Turkey, you know they were not recognized and so many Turks have been assimilated into society and they even forget about their Kurdish identity and what is, did you have to, that is the other thing, did you have to hid your identity while you are living in Iraq, let us say you are in Baghdad for business or where did you go to university? 33:07 RZ: Erbil. 33:08 AD: So, but did you have to live in Baghdad, I do not remember you told me all that but- 33:13 RZ: I have never seen Baghdad not even- 33:15 AD: I mean did you live outside the so-called northern Kurdistan? 33:19 RZ: I know what do you say, I mean it was easy before, let us say after 1980, it was not easy for Kurds to go or to live or to buy a land or a property in let us say from the Arabs cities, it was not like. 33:52 AD: After Saddam took power. 34:09 RZ: Yeah After Saddam and after some year passed in his ruling, it was not easy for Kurds to go to live or to, it was easier to visit, but to live in another city that majority were Arab, it was not easy. Not even easy to go for an education. 34:29 AD: So that is why… Like for minorities there is actually not just Kurds like being minority in Europe or any other country like hiding minority you pretty much negotiate your identity, so you did not have that kind experience I gather. 34:55 RZ: I think if you are the minority, I think you wanna show your identity more when you are the majority. I think that, maybe it is not right. 35:08 AD: That you could not do it in Turkey. 35:09 RZ: but unless if there are some restrictions that you are afraid, they might make fun of you say I belong to this special group, but if there is no restriction and there is no exclusion, you prefer to show your identity. I mean their certain group Kurdish or Turkish or whatever. That is what I am thinking. I think when you think let us say you are in danger or you are dangerous situation to lose your identity, you try to show your identity more than if you among all of your own peer, your own group members, you do not care what your identity, but if you are a minority within the majority then you try to show your identity. 36:20 AD: so that is interesting to me I never heard that before because not, yes in a dangerous situation, that is correct, but also economic and political I have seen or read many examples that people do not bring or did not, not do not I should use past. Did not bring their minority identity forward or even social because they wanted to be accepted socially otherwise you get be exclude from the community or let us say you want to do business, if you bring your minority identity out strongly, then you will not make money, but you will be pushed out. 37:08 RZ: I think if you look at, in business let us say economic way it is different, when you want to, yes you could say that this is one of the restrictions because you want to get some sort of benefit that is why you do not want to show your identity. But in normal situation that there is no risk on that you will show your identity, why not? 37:43 AD: Of course, no you shouldn’t have to hid your identity Ridwan, that is how I feel, but that is not how it has been, you know unfortunately that has been the case and that is still the case in so many other countries. 37:58 RZ: I said unless there is some sort of- I mean restriction of some sort of shame when you I belong to that certain group or the group that you belong to is not accepted by other people then you will try not show your identity. Yeah, this is true. 38:28 AD: I mean what I am saying this it is even happening in the United States maybe you can, I mean you are an American like let us say you have some African American heritage, but you appear like me, I am not saying like you because you are really fair complected. So, if you do not bring that out, I witnessed because I lived in deep south for 10 years, you do not come and say, oh you what legally, and those people are legally black, when you go mark your race, and you know what they never talk about it. I mean forget about me, Middle East, Europe, we are talking about the United States because blacks are the minority in the country and that is still continuing you hid to be accepted, because then you say oh she is white, I mean not blonde hair blue eyes, but you are still considered white. I have seen this so. I witnessed, I witnessed. 39:43 RZ: It is true, but I am talking about the normal situation. If something in your benefit when you hide your identity then you will hide, if there is, but I am talking about the normal situation. I do not know I personally prefer that to show my identity to others. 40:09 AD: That is how should be, but unfortunately. But you did not experience that either? Wherever you lived your life experience, you did not have to deal with that. That is what I am asking, like did you have any experience like that wherever you lived. 40:28 RZ: Not here no, not in the United States. 40:33 AD: Not in Iraq? 40:34 RZ: In Iraq, yeah it was, I mean many people they hid their identity during the Baath regime. Yes, that happened. But I am talking about here actually. 40:54 AD: Not here, I was like speaking about homeland. 40:58 RZ: Yeah, there were some people they did hid their identity even some people they marked in the official documents themselves as Arabs. 41:22 AD: So, they were even lying. 41:23 RZ: Yeah, not because they wanted to, but if they wouldn’t have done that they would have treated in some different way. They might have lost some opportunity of a job or an education or something, so they prefer to- 41:50 AD: Okay, that is what I was asking about, I was refereeing actually to homeland- 41:54 RZ: But this is not something they wanted to, they did that because of the situation, otherwise they would have lost something, but many people refuse that and they lose the opportunities but they did. 42:25 AD: But here it is different, in America, you say you do not have to- 42:33 RZ: Yes, here is different because I mean everybody is equal in front of the law there is no pressure on you to hide your identity and nobody asks you to do that I mean, and if you did not do that you will lose something or you did not get benefit, no you are free. 43:05 AD: Well but there is this negativity toward Islam also in this country, maybe not toward Kurds, probably they even they do not know what Kurds to be frank with you after this 9/11 you know there is this negative sentiment toward Islam all though as a man it wouldn’t really affect you but if you are covering your head then you are exposed completely that you are Muslim. 43:39 RZ: Not everywhere, but in some places, it is true. Like in airports let us say if you have scarf on or if they know you are Muslim, may be they will look at you in different way but in other places I do not see anything like that, like when you apply to a job or to a school or something, I mean any other place but in security, I mean talking about security they will sometime- 44:18 AD: When you are going through passport control for example. 44:23 RZ: Yeah when you go through what they call the metal detector, Yeah, they will probably look at you and, I mean they will keep an eye on you. But in other places, I do not see, and I do not blame them actually that, in the security issues, that is how they keep this country safe and out of any terrorist attack. 44:53 AD: Yes, exactly and then even this, what. It was the anniversary yesterday the Boston Marathon, even those guys came from Daghistan, from former Soviet Russia and they are Muslim too. The picture is getting more and more negative; it is like… you know what I mean. 45:21 RZ: Unfortunately, that is true, that is how I mean we do not have to blame them; we have to blame ourselves first. That is what some Muslims do, some of them. 45:36 AD: Yeah, who are extremist, 45:38 RZ: Yeah, but it is a small group, but they do in the name of Islam, so. 45:46 AD: Jihad, right? 45:47 RZ: Yeah, I mean whatever they call it. It is happening. 45:52 AD: I think I covered everything, right? Do we have any questions? 46:00 LC: We covered everything. 46:02 AD: We covered everything. Is there anything you want to add Ridwan? 46:07 RZ: No. 46:08 AD: No? That is good. So- 46:10 RZ: I did not come for this actually. [laughs] (End of interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ridwan Zebari Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fb7637475b6f090d4d5a3c0422ff5833.mp3 18d3de733eb976b6b79cb769f631e175 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 25 May 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Rondic Zerbari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 44:38 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Rondic is the oldest of her three sisters and two brothers and has an engineering degree from University in Kurdistan. Roondic arrived in Binghamton after marrying a Kurdish refugee and currently lives with her husband and children in Broome County. Keywords Kurdistan; Iran; United Nations; United States; Gulf War; PKK; Second Gulf War; Food Shortage; Religion; Christian Kurds; Jewish Kurds; Dohuk Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Rondic Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 25 May 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University Library -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:10 AD: Can I have your name one more time? 0:12 RZ: Rondic Zebari. 0:14 AD: Okay, and where were you born? 0:18 RZ: In Kurdistan Duhok. 0:19 AD: Duhok and so uh, how long did you live there? 0:26 RZ: Twenty-five years. 0:27 AD: Twenty-five years? Okay we will get more details about Kurdistan that is for sure. So, did you live in Duhok the whole time? 0:41 RZ: No, I spent some time in Akre, it is like two hours away distance from Duhok. 0:53 AD: Is it another city or village? 0:55 RZ: Another city, yes but smaller city than Duhok. 0:59 AD: Smaller city. 1:01 RZ: Duhok is the biggest than the Bahdini (Mantaka) area. I studied elementary school and middle school in there and high school and college in Duhok. 1:15 AD: Okay so what did you study? 1:17 RZ: Engineering. 1:18 AD: Oh, what kind of engineering? 1:20 RZ: Water Resources. 1:21 AD: Wow, so how many siblings do you have? 1:27 RZ: Three sisters and two brothers. 1:30 AD: This is small Kurdish family. 1:33 RZ: It is an average. [laughs] 1:36 AD: Yeah, they have fourteen kids. 1:39 RZ: And I am the older one. 1:40 AD: You are the older one- So did all your siblings go to school, get education? 1:49 RZ: Yes. 1:50 AD: Where are they now in Kurdistan? Or- 1:52 RZ: Yeah, all of them are in Kurdistan only me here and my husband- he is my cousin. 2:01 AD: Who is your husband? 2:04 RZ: Shivan. 2:05 AD: Shivan is? 2:06 RZ: Shivan Zebari, yes. 2:07 AD: Okay. 2:07 RZ: They were there in 2006 and then I just graduated from university we met there, and we did our engagement there. 2:18 AD: I see. 2:19 RZ: And then he came back to here; he applied for documents for me in order to get visa for me. And then in 2007, the end of 2007 I came here. We did our wedding here. 2:36 AD: Oh, I see, I see. 2:37 RZ: Yes, and I now have three kids, a daughter and two sons. 2:42 AD: Wow, wow, congratulations. 2:45 EI: How old are you? 2:46 RZ: Twenty-nine. 2:47 EI: Twenty-nine ok. 2:48 AD: Wow, so let me ask you this, your entire family still over there in Kurdistan? 2:56 RZ: Yes. 2:57 AD: You are the only one here? 2:58 RZ: I am the only one, yes. 2:59 AD: So, okay. So how was your life in Kurdistan, like when you were growing up, so because you spent your full life over there and we can get different perspective as a child and teenager and young adult you know different stages like what did you see? How were things before the gulf war? Let us start with that. 3:30 RZ: Right, I do not quite remember the time before the war because I was little. In 1991 the big revolution in Kurdistan I was seven, eight years old. And at that time, because my parents were always talking about Kurdistan and Peshmergas and Barzani, when that happened it was just like fresh memories coming back and, in my head, because I did not understand when they were talking about it, when they were listening to Shivan Parwer’s songs. It did not mean anything when I was a child. And then it has, meant something. So, beginning of my like learning about world it was Kurdistan I have blood in Kurdistan. Before that, they did not start like switching language. I studied Arabic, elementary middle school and high school I studied in Arabic. 4:48 AD: So, you are fluent in Arabic? 4:50 RZ: Exactly, but only one year after me was Kurdish. So I was like chasing in Arabic. 4:55 AD: I see, so after 1991 they changed the rule. 5:00 RZ: Anyone which is one year younger than me would studied Kurdish. 5:07 AD: I see. 5:09 RZ: It was hard for like people at my age, a little bit younger than me, a little bit older than me. Because who fail in one class it would be in Kurdish language [next year for them] and it was hard because to study in Arabic more all the subjects you know mathematic and bio physics chemistry that was all in Arabic language and then switching into Kurdish language it was very hard for a lot of my friends. In the neighborhood, all like talking to each other, all the friends it was a lot harder for some of my friends. That cause a lot of them to drop out of school. 5:58 AD: I see. 5:58 RZ: Yes. And later on, I mean the, I do not like the, when I came here after finishing university and all of that, I love the education system here. It is very hard in there. I think the reason why live in America it is because of the Education system. It is very flexible here. There is very hard. In university if you fail one class, you have to start the whole year in the next year, yeah. 6:37 AD: Yeah, it is hard. 6:40 RZ: It is very hard. 6:42 AD: So, do you remember the gulf war, like 6:47 RZ: Not really, no. 6:49 AD: So, you did not leave Duhok during the war? 6:52 RZ: Yeah, we left we went to Iran instead of Turkey. 6:58 AD: Okay, so do you remember? 7:00 RZ: I remember some stuff, yeah. 7:02 AD: What do you remember? 7:06 RZ: Then my family was smaller and I had one little brother I was the oldest I was seven years old and my sister was three and just my brother was new born. We were a small family. It was easy for us. But we travelled with my, our relative, my father’s relatives. It was very hard for them because they were a big family like my husband’s family. It was harder for them who had elderly people with them. My grandparents, they were died before 1991. So, it was like easier for us to travel. 7:51 AD: I see, I see. So do you remember the camps? 7:56 RZ: Yes. 7:56 AD: How was it? 7:57 RZ: It was cool for me, I do not remember any like bad stuff. 8:00 AD: You do not? Well that is okay because this is your memory, this is your history it does not need to be the same with Zhiman, you know or with your mother in-law. It is your memory. So what do you remember? 8:16 RZ: I remember we were always visiting the big cities in Iran, like Razaiya and I do not remember the- these names, but they were very nice and beautiful cities, because right then in Iraq it was not like very civilized country. Iran was more civilized and clean cities, beautiful one, like people more civilized unlike Iraq. And I remember there was a river in there we were all days like going to the river and swimming. My father love swimming and yes. 9:00 AD: Oh, that is nice. 9:02 RZ: Like always holding me and his shoulder we were going to the deep water. 9:09 AD: Wow, so that is nice. 9:11 RZ: It was very nice but the problem was the river was going through a lot of villages and they had animal, sheep and domestic animals. It was like not clean water. After a while I got, my skin got very rough and- 9:27 AD: Oh my God. 9:28 RZ: Yeah, but the time we got into Kurdistan we spent like three months in Iran I was very sick, my skin got like axima stuff like that and my ear got very pain, infection I remember a lot of water came out of it. My mother was crying because she thought it is the end of my ear, I will be like cannot hear anything, but potentially I got better. 10:02 AD: Oh, that is good. So Where did you live in Duhok, did you have a house or did you live in an apartment? 10:12 RZ: We had a house. And my parents still live in there. 10:17 AD: So, when you came back from the camp you went back to your house? 10:23 RZ: No, right then, when we came back from Iran and the other people from Turkey Duhok and Akre and other big cities they were not safe to live people in there. United Nations they made some small cities they called them [Al-Mantiqa Al-Amina] the safe areas. Like my mother in-law told you in Zakho. And we lived in Serseng. Those two cities they were the only the safe ones that United Nations would watch them against like bombing. 11:02 AD: Yeah, because- 11:03 RZ: We were not able to go to Duhok and other big cities. And we spent like another months in this area, and we lived like there were buildings not completely built. We lived there. And it was not like just blocks- 11:29 AD: - Yeah, unfinished. 11:31 RZ: - Exactly. 11:33 AD: So, after that you went back to your house. Was your house still standing? 11:39 RZ: It was still standing. Some of our neighbors they did, not all the people run away from Kurdistan to the borders. There were our neighbors, they were old they could not do that, they stayed and they are safe. 11:58 AD: They stayed and they were still alive- 11:59 RZ: Yes, and they were alive and like they tried to safe our house from the other to steal things. Everything was just the way we left. We did not lose anything. But the only problem with my parent was right then they had saved a lot of money to build a big house, like two layer house, big one. They did not finish the house and they had all the money with them. When we ran we needed money 12:38 AD: So, they carried they money- 12:40 RZ: We carried the money and we had our relatives, so they gave the money to our relatives, and they spent on us. So, when we were back we do not have any money to build our house and to complete it. 12:59 AD: I am sorry I forgot to ask you. Did your mother work? 13:05 RZ: No. 13:05 AD: Your father, what was he doing? 13:09 RZ: He is a teacher, yeah and he is the only son as my grandpa had the kind of store he was rich right then. 13:11 AD: I see. 13:12 RZ: But after that my family was very rich I grew up in my childhood in a very rich environment, but after that we became let us say not very poor but poor. Because all our money was spent in that four months. 13:46 AD: I see. Are your parents still alive in Kurdistan? 13:49 RZ: Yeah, they are alive. 13:52 AD: Okay, so what did your father do when you came back from the UN city I would say? 14:00 RZ: He just, he continued running his father’s store, it was like grocery- 14:06 AD: - Like a little convenient store? 14:12 RZ: Exactly, and he was a teacher he worked both. 14:18 AD: - Okay, so he continued doing that. So, then you continued to live your life. You went to school and all that. 14:33 RZ: I was in the first grade when we ran away and the event was in March, so by the time we came back it was like summer. So, in school they did an exam for all the students just to let them to pass the year and go to the next grade. 14:59 AD: You are too young you wouldn’t remember but I was in the United States then and I watched that war on TV I am not kidding you, CNN broadcast of that war on TV, the first Gulf war I remember so vividly I am like wow look at this the war is going on and I cannot watch it on TV and it was devastating to watch, I remember, of course I could not see all the after, then you do not see what happens, you know what torment and torture you go through. 15:40 RZ: We have seen those videos afterwards you know. 15:43 AD: Oh yeah, definitely. So, how was life after that? Many people left in 1996 to come here. 15:54 RZ: Right, so as I said this is my cousin’s, Shivan’s father is my uncle [brother of my mother]. They came here and we were there not from the people were able because my uncle was a driver for an organization, that was why they were able to come here. 16:19 AD: I see. 16:19 RZ: And afterwards, I mean after 1991, 1992, 1993 it was a little better because people still we had money were a little rich could run their life their kids, after that the situation becoming worse and worse because the United Nations put like restriction on the Iraqi region do not trade with any other country so stuff were like very expensive. I remember there was not sugar [sugar was not available], it was very expensive. I remember my father used to love tea, all the Kurdish people love tea. Even tea was very expensive to serve your guess. It was very hard. I mean I remember we did not have variety of food it was very poor nutrition. We never drank milk after 1991. Yogurt was very hard to get it. Only we had for five six years we had only butter for breakfast. And like rise was very dream meal. It was not only rise even bread was very bad, black and very hard to eat it. It was so hard, it was very bad. My childhood after that we all complained about food, anyone you like interview with them talk with them at my age would complain about food it was very bad nutrition. Like candies you would never see a candy, only Eid you know celebrating events, Eids. Yes. And even the cloth they would buy for us cloth only one time in a year. For me like I would go for two years in that school with only one dress. Yes, it was very bad Situation. 18:48 AD: So how long did that continue? 18:51 RZ: It continued pretty much from (19)91 to (19)98 or (19)99. Yeah and then it was a little better and better. 19:04 AD: Let me ask you before we hit the second gulf war. Where you lived in Duhok was it like all Kurdish families or where there any Arabic families. 19:17 RZ: They were all Kurdish families with like Christian Kurdish and there is a lot religion. 19:22 AD: There are Christian Kurds? 19:25 RZ: Lot of Christian Kurdish- 19:27 EI: - And Jewish as well. 19:29 AD: Jewish Kurdish- 19:30 RZ: – Yeah. 19:30 AD: Angelique was asking me, I said there is no such thing. I never knew, how can you be Jewish and Kurdish? 19:35 Angelique: – When did I ask you that, Anne? 19:38 RZ: There are. Especially Christian Kurdish, there are a lot of them. I have a lot of friends with them. 19:46 AD: I know there are a bunch of Christian Arabs. But I never heard Christian Kurds, I thought Kurds are all Muslim. 19:55 RZ: No. 19:55 EI: Yezidis. 19:56 RZ: A lot of Yezidis and a lot of Christians and Jewish. 20:01 AD: But you were getting along just fine? 20:04 RZ: It was like you would not recognize, only if like me and my friend, if someone wear a scarf you would know this is a Muslim, otherwise not all the Muslims wear scarf you could not like make difference. 20:17 AD: Tell me something, do all Muslims were scarf? 20:22 RZ: No. 20:22 AD: No, okay, like in Turkey. 20:26 RZ: - Yeah, no like however you want. 20:29 AD: - So, your family, everybody wear scarf? 20:32 RZ: No, one of my sisters, no. 20:35 AD: She decided— 20:36 RZ: She decided yeah. 20:27 AD: Okay. 20:37 RZ: So, we had in Kurdish families some parents are very restricted like they force their daughter to wear scarf. 20:46 AD: But your father is a teacher so- 20:48 RZ: My father was not like that, like it was optional for us. 20:55 EI: After 1991 there is a domestic war between two parties, yeah, so how it affected your life, did you affected by that, I mean there was not anymore Saddam’s authority. 21:08 RZ: That was the effective one on me because I was like understand everything right then. My uncle was in that war. 21:19 EI: He was from Barzani’s Party? 21:21 RZ: Yes, He was working right with Barzani, with one of their sons. Sidad or something like that. It was very hard because we were always worried about him. Is he gonna survive or not. Sometimes he was leaving for two months and after that it was very hard because they were Kurdish fighting each other. I remember my parents and the older ones they were talking like how before now it was not very painful because it was Saddam their enemy with us, now is brother with brother. That was very painful and like I had, after … the village area, it was very hard for people to go there. We lived in Duhok but I had a lot of friends who their parents the older one or their grandparents lived in village it was so hard for them to visit their parents or their grandparents because it was very dangerous to leave the big cities. Only the big cities were safe, otherwise, opposite of the before, when was Saddam’s war, villages and mountains were safe to hid in there, then it was only the big cities safe to live in there. And there was PKK and yeah. 23:05 EI: There was not Saddam’s authority, anymore right? 23:09 RZ: No, 23:09 EI: There was PKK as well? 23:12 RZ: Yes, and there was a time like PKK were in the mountain, they were like if see anyone would kill them, a lot of shepherd people who take care of their animals a lot of them got killed. 23:33 EI: Yeah, in 1992-1993 like there was a domestic war and Kurdish called it Brakuzhi. 23:42 AD: Oh, Kurds killing Kurds. 23:46 EI: Brother means- 23:49 AD: Yeah, iç savaş, domestic war. 23:50 EI: So Barzani’s party and Talabani’s party and Iran, Turkey, PKK like Saddam like it was just chaos I think- 23:59 RZ: It was chaos exactly. It was very bad, like it was very painful for people it was pain inside like when you have issue in your family and say it outside it was like that of pain, you hold it in your heart. 24:19 EI: That time you were aware of that right? 24:22 RZ: Yes 24:25 EI: Like you are or, I mean the name Brakuzhi did not give after the war, it was that time that people saying this is Brakuzhi or brothers killing each other, you were aware of that right? 24:39 RZ: Exactly, yeah. 24:40 EI: I mean when people were talking to others. 24:43 AD: So, what happened who, Barzani’s party-- 24:48 EI: They negotiated. 24:50 AD: But Barzani took over right? 24:52 EI: No, I mean, Talabani now is the head if Iraq, Barzani is the head of Kurdish part. 24:59 AD: I am talking about Kurdistan. 25:01 EI: In Kurdistan their parties negotiated and like they got fifty, fifty seats, they divided; now they are united in elections I think. 25:16 RZ: Yes. 25:16 EI: So, I mean now they are fine. 25:18 RZ: Now they are a lot better than before. So, people were complaining about that they said- 25:25 AD: – You want to go to bed? 25:26 (Someone)- Are you guys almost done? 25:28 AD: In like a little bit, but why do not you go sleep, go to bed, go to bed. 25:36 (Someone)- no I do not event want to sleep, we have lunch ready, that is why. 25:38 AD: What lunch, no no, no. 25:40 (Someone): It is already ready. 25:41 AD: Oh no. 25:41 (Someone): I just wanted to know if I can put it down. Now how many? 25:43 Angelique: Does it have sucuk? 25:45 AD: [laughs] Oh Angelique! 25:47 EI: Five or ten minutes 25:49 AD: Ten minutes? 25:51 (Someone): Okay. 25:52 AD: Oh my God. 25:52 RZ: It is okay, we already have a lot of people over. 25:55 AD: – Oh wow. 25:55 RZ: Do not worry about it, we like prepare their lunch for us. We are a big family so two, three people does not affect. 26:05 AD: Yeah, I know, oh wow. 26:06 RZ: Yeah about that, um, like people were complaining about the like (aadi) normal people they said “all these years we were fighting for Kurdistan now that we have it, now our heads they are fighting for nothing.” If your relatives, your brothers or father or husband was killed in that war, it would be very painful because it was over nothing. Before it was for a big reason for Kurdistan the big Kurdistan which every Kurdish people dreamt about the big Kurdistan, and now it is for nothing, just for seat to be more president, have more money have more control; that does not mean anything for normal people, it was painful very angry people about this war. 27:04 AD: Yeah, unfortunately. So, let us hurry up then. 27:09 EI: Another turning point I think is after, like it ended in 1995 or (19)96, right. 27:17 AD: No, I think she says 1998. 27:20 RZ: Yeah because then PKK’s thing too. I think in 1998 both Barzani and Talabani they came here to the White House and they had negotiated things and set out some like agreement. Yes. 27:40 EI: Okay and second turning point is like 2004, (20)03, (20)04, the second gulf war. 27:47 AD: The second Gulf War, I watched that on TV as well, I did. 27:51 RZ: Then I just went to college and we again run away the big cities. 28:05 AD: Oh! You ran away again? 28:07 RZ: This time old people, because they said Saddam is gonna anyway be over his time and there is gonna be another Halabja, chemical bombings again. So, people were very afraid of that cities were emptied. 28:38 AD: How long did you stay? 28:40 RZ: For a month. This time. 28:43 AD: Because war itself, you know like going up north happens like in two days I mean you just watch, like American soldiers are going and it was that but finding Saddam took a little bit longer and- 28:53 RZ: And I remember we all ran to some village where we had relative in there and because all the news were in Arabic there were a lot of people and I was the only one who knew Arabic I was sitting and translating like for them, yeah. 29:09 AD: Yeah, so nobody- your father knows- 29:12 RZ: My father, it was like in villages women sit in separate 29:18 AD: That is right- 29:19 RZ: Yeah, there were young women, older women of my mother’s age and older, so I was the only one who knew Arabic, always translating. Old ladies would wake me up at six o’clock and would tell me what is going on just translate for us. 29:42 EI: On TV? 29:43 RZ: On TV yes. 29:44 EI: Have you watched the Turtles can fly? 29:47 RZ: Yes, I watched that it is a very nice- 29:50 EI: You should definitely watch it- 29:51 AD: It is, what is it? 29:52 EI: It is about the camps like after the war- 29:57 AD: O really? 29:58 RZ: It is about that time. 30:00 AD: I will watch it- 30:01 EI: I will send you it is on Netflix. 30:05 AD: I do not have Netflix. 30:06 EI: You can find it on You tube as well. 30:08 AD: Okay, you send me the link, I will watch it. So, you were away for a month then went back to the city. 30:16 RZ: We went back yea, and all the college, it was March again and all the schools and college were closed for that time then, even when we went back it did not start right away- 30:33 AD: So, life just- how long did you guys wait? 30:36 RZ: I would say for two months all the things were frozen like no work no school. 30:47 AD: And then it went back to— 30:49 RZ: And then it opened again in May we did some tests, some people past some not- 30:59 AD: But this time it was not as bad? 31:00 RZ: It was not, it was not as bad no. 31:04 AD: And then things got better after the war? 31:09 RZ: Yeah, and this time in this war 2004 people in Kurdistan were resting. Now is the time for the Kurdish in the other region, Saddami Region in the middle and south of like in Mosul and Baghdad. Kurds ran away from those places it was very hard for them because they were Kurds living in those areas it was very unsafe for them it was so hard like I have a cousin lived in there, my father’s cousin, they have I mean kids at my age, they were working in the universities some students, they could not go to school any more or go to work. They were target by terrorists. 32:01 AD: I see. 32:02 RZ: Especially they could not send their daughter because they would kidnap them and you that is very bad, would bring very bad reputation for the whole family- 32:17 AD: When did it become- like safe? Is it safe now? 32:22 RZ: Even now, I call my cousin in there I talk with their daughter as I said they are my age, older than me, younger than me. It is still not very safe. It is not nice, it is not like Kurdistan. 32:39 AD: What do you mean it is not like Kurdistan, you mean before the first war? 32:48 RZ: For example, they cannot shop in after noon, they can only shop from 11 to 4 o’clock. Like only day time. 32:57 AD: In Duhok? 32:58 RZ: No in Mosul and Baghdad. 33:03 AD: I am asking about Kurdistan and I am like why isn’t it safe? 33:13 EI: They are controversial areas like Kirkuk and Mosul they cannot decide which part should take over- 33:13 AD: Yes, no those areas but in Duhok? 32:21 RZ: Duhok is more freedom than here. Is very, very safe. 33:23 AD: How often do you go back home? 33:26 RZ: When I came here I had to wait for three years to be American citizen. So, after three years in 2011 I went back. This year in summer we gonna visit them I guess. 33:45 AD: Your parents come here? 33:46 RZ: They cannot it is very hard to get visa to come here. 33:50 AD: Really? 33:51 RZ: No, they cannot, I waited because we had our marriage and engagement, my husband had to apply for my paper as a spouse. And I waited two years to come here. 34:06 AD: How about your siblings? 34:08 RZ: They cannot, no one can come here. It is very hard. 34:12 AD: So, do you miss your family? 34:14 RZ: I miss them a lot, when I first came here like for one year completely I would not sleep one night before I cry. It was very hard 34:27 AD: You are close to your family. 34:31 RZ: Especially I was the older one and I was friend with my mother with my father I miss that a lot. 34:40 AD: I have a question which is separate from all that. So, you have your degree than you married you came here, if you did not come here, if you did not marry right away? Would you work? 34:53 RZ: I would work yeah. 34:55 AD: But here, are you considering working? 35:00 RZ: When I came here first I considered like transferring my degree and all of that, and I started taking ESL classes in BCC to improve my English, in order to one company to hire me I have to speak some English at least. 35:20 AD: – Yeah, Yeah. 35:21 RZ: - and then after one semester I got pregnant with my first one, my daughter and I had a lot of complication with pregnancy, I had to on bed rest for her. I had her prematurely she had the NICU for two months I was very busy with her. She was born in 27 weeks and I was very busy with her. So, I had to take care of her all the time because she was very little. She was two pounds and five ounces. No one can believe that, she is a miracle. 35:59 AD: – Yeah, yeah. 36:00 RZ: - and then I got pregnant with my other one. I was not planning and then I was like surprised and it was even worse in complication with pregnancy, I had to sit like rest all the time. My mother in-law and my sister in-laws they took care of my daughter for three months until I had my Ismael, and then it was two kids I could not do anything. Then I had my other one and now I am like I am no having enough sleep- 36:37 AD: You are only twenty-nine years old right? 36:39 RZ: Yes. 36:40 AD: You are still young. 36:43 RZ: Yeah, but I want to again do something- 36:46 AD: you can, you are still young. Yeah. 36:49 RZ: Sometimes I get very mad because of that. It is hard when you study especially engineering is so hard. In my country is so hard to pass in engineering, I spent my whole life, I was like only caring about school, that kind of girls- 37:09 AD: That is okay, you are still very young. You can do it and especially in this country, there is no age, seriously- 37:18 RZ: That is true, right. And now sometime I get very frustrated because I think about all that hard work I did and now I am not doing anything only staying at home and very miss my parents very much and my siblings. Sometime I get very stressed because of all that feeling and then, it gets better. 37:39 AD: I think you can do it later on. 37:42 RZ: I think it is very hard for people in my age to come here, twenty-five years old, you would accomplish a lot of thing in your life and you just ready to do, go on, continue and then when you come here you have to start all over again. 38:01 AD: Yeah. 38:01 RZ: And Zhiman’s sister she married her husband, he is from Kurdistan too and he studied engineering too, but he came here a lot before me. He studied engineering now he is struggling, he was thirty years old when he came here. It is very hard for him, he is struggling with English. 38:28 AD: Oh yeah, I can understand that. 38:31 RZ: It is very hard, you have to start learn another language and to deal with new- 38:40 AD: Yeah, he needs to do it and then other, it is not easy you know, well at least especially not your case, but the others who came in 1996, you know that starvation, you know life was not safe also at least you are safe here, you have food but it is not easy, I mean I came here you know it is not easy. I understand- 39:08 RZ: There is a quote would say “when you leave your country, you would not have another homeland.” It is like that, now this is a better place right. There is more opportunity, better system, everything, better health care system, better education system, but now you miss your family that is very- 39:34 AD: I do not know a better education, easier education. 39:38 RZ: I would say easier, yeah, and more opportunity to work. 39:43 AD: Yeah, but there are difficulties here in this country too, definitely 39:47 RZ: Yes, Definitely. 39:51 AD: And your case you came here after you got married so- 39:56 RZ: Especially it is harder for men because they have to work they cannot stay at home. It was easier for me, I can stay home, my husband work- 40:06 AD: So, how did you make, was a traditional way? Your marriage like did they ask your opinion? 40:13 RZ: Yes, like I said we knew each other we are cousins. And my husband he asked me before. I did not tell my mother. His mother came with him. He said I just wanna ask you I do not want any families effect on your decision I am asking you this and take time and think about it. If you said yes, then I am gonna tell my mother. It was yeah, it was our decision. 40:55 AD: So, it was not traditional. 40:57 RZ: No, it is not. Traditional marriage is not common anymore- 41:02 AD: No? 41:03 RZ: No. It was like I would say sixty years before now. There is no any other traditional marriage or arrangement. 41:17 AD: I see. Things have changed. 41:20 RZ: Changed a lot. You would here about a lot of bad stories about arranged marriages, still hard, I mean if parents pick someone for you and you have to live with them and you do not like them that is not good. We are very happy that those bad tradition about marriage and those stuff changed. Before like in my mother’s time, when she was young, her parents did not let her to go to school. They let their son not her. Now there is no such traditions too. 42:01 AD: You know what, I noted that. And the, remember I was saying that, I notice that is why I am thinking because your father is a teacher that has a big effect. I noticed that when we interview with others it is like girls do not go to school, boys go get their education. 42:20 RZ: Exactly, and now, for now still my mother have that pain because her father did not let her to go to school. That is very hard. But now, like luckily there is nothing like that. 42:36 AD: That is good. Erdem do you have anything because we told them ten minutes and it is- 42:44 EI: No, I am- I think, do you want to add something? 42:48 RZ: No. I said everything 42:50 EI: Last think what you think about your country, about Kurdistan? Like just your feelings. RZ: I am very happy about Kurdistan the way it is now. I mean it is very safe, it is very nice place. We just hope for our leaders, people who run the country to take care more of people, poor people. And I am very sad that there is a lot of poor people when you walk in Kurdistan you would see a lot of see elderly women sitting on the streets- 43:35 EI: Still? 43:36 RZ: Yes still. 43:37 AD: Begging money. 43:39 RZ: Begging money. They have newborn on their laps under the sun, I mean it is so heart-braking. And you would see a lot of kids; five to eight years old to ten years old like selling bags or polishing shoes it is so hard to see those kids, yeas it is very. I used to walk from my home to college; during our walking distance I would always see those people. It is always heart-breaking for me. 44:29 AD: Yeah. Okay so, I just need to do the consent form, so you want- thank you so much that was – (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Rondic Zebari Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0d9c14228ef5c4cb7953ff97e54c45f4.mp3 ed031f9c5344f1aa96441ed73b0b8b60 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. OHMS Object URL http://omeka.binghamton.edu/viewer/viewer.php?cahcefile=ZekiTaha.xml Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Date of Interview 22 February 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Erdem Ilter Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zeki Taha Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 103:39 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Zeki was born in the city of Duhok in Iraqi Kurdistan and fled to the United States in 1996. He holds an associate’s degree in Marketing from SUNY Broome and he currently resides with his wife and three kids in Binghamton, NY. Keywords Kurdistan; Duhok; Refugee; Kurdish Culture; Muslim; Kurdish celebrations; Broome Community College; Binghamton Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Zeki Taha Interviewed by: Erdem Ilter Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 22 February 2013 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 EI: Yes, start with your name and surname, it is Zeki? 0:08 ZT: Zeki Taha. 0:09 EI: Yeah, when you born? 0:11 ZT: 1978. 0:12 EI: 1978. 0:14 ZT: Yes. July 1st, (19)78. 0:16 EI: Ok, you are Kurd and Muslim Sunni? 0:20 ZT: Muslim, yes. 0:21 EI: Sunni Kurd, ok. Marital status? 0:24 ZT: Married, three kids. 0:25 EI: Oh! Maşallah. Married with three kids. Ok, so how about your siblings and brothers, siblings? 0:36 ZT: Four to four, four brothers and four sisters. 0:39 EI: You are the- 0:40 ZT: The oldest one. 0:42 EI: Oldest one, and you are totally eight, nine? 0:44 ZT: I think ten because I have parents because four and four, yes. 0:48 EI: Okay, and what is your education level? 0:53 ZT: Associate degree with Marketing Management Sale. 0:56 EI: Great, where did you get it? 0:58 ZT: Broome Community College. 1:00 EI: Ah okay, so you were here. 1:02 ZT: Yes. 1:03 EI: How many years you are here? 1:05 ZT: I have been here since (19)97 so it is like fifteen, sixteen years right now since (19)96 we are out, the end of (19)96. 1:13 EI: When did you come here? 1:15 ZT: I think I came to the States in (19)97. 1:20 EI: 1997. Okay, great. You were in high school that time, or no? 1:26 ZT: I think I was in high school but I did not finish it because I was still seventeen years old; sixteen or seventeen years old when I came to this country. 1:32 EI: Actually let us start with your childhood, maybe we will come to that part later… How old the childhood before the school and do you remember anything about that? First thing the family and the small city or village, you were from Duhok right? 1:49 ZT: Duhok yes. 1:50 EI: Village of Duhok or the city? 1:52 ZT: The city- 1:53 EI: City of Dohuk. So how was the life, do you remember the childhood? 1:58 ZT: For us to be honest for the us it was normal because our parents did not tell us exactly how they were living, what kind of life they were living, the did not tell us exactly how bad it was , because when you are a kid you do not know exactly- 2:14 EI: They did not show you if they had a bad… Okay. 2:16 ZT: They did not show you the bad, you know the image, but when you grow up a little bit, little by little, day by day or year by year, now you learn more about life over there, because you do not have that kind of freedom, like the freedom you want to have because I think, I remember- 2:36 EI: What do you mean by freedom? 2:38 ZT: Freedom because Saddam Hussein knew you were Kurd and you know you got to be number two in that country. 2:45 EI: I mean you personally faced with it or? 2:49 ZT: What happened right now when you are a kid because you do not travel a lot you have to go with your parents and our parents you know they did not talk about it that much because they knew inside they were burning but they were scared to say something and somebody heard something from them because I am a kid I do not know exactly what is right and what is wrong, so if I tell somebody oh my parents does not like this government and you know it will happen to my parents they are going to be killed. 3:17 EI: I think it is a general problem because the other interviews they also said that if they told you something your family and you go to school and tell your teacher it will create problem you do not know what to happen- 3:32 ZT: Yes. See even right now like for example son is going to say something he does not know exactly if he is going to take me as a hard way or bad way so he is a kid he is a clean-minded, so he is going to say it, that is why our parents- 3:47 EI: You were aware that something was going on, or something is wrong but- 3:52 ZT: Yeah, when we got older and things like not when you travel, we see all these checkpoints and you say to yourself am I Iraqi citizen so why I have to be checked before I go out of the city? 4:03 EI: Aha, were you travelling a lot or your family? 4:10 ZT: No what happened because for example if you go for a trip or if you go for example for a school trip, like they take you from here to Syracuse. 4:23 EI: Okay. 4:23 ZT: So, if you go from Duhok and Duhok probably has one, two, two main gates; one coming from the city of Mosul, Nineveh and the other coming from Zawita, you go outside of Duhok. So, this is the main door, what happened right now if you go outside of these gates they have checkpoints and that checkpoints in the cities, they have like undercover people you know checking before there was no, what they call it, it is not like here it is not volunteering you going to enjoy the military, so they were asking from this age to that age has to join the military, if you not going to go and tomorrow if they see you, you have to had a good reason why you are not in the military otherwise they will take you may be killed or you may be in jail for the rest of your life. 5:17 EI: Saddam like he accepted the Kurdish army, right? I mean got the Kurds to the army, even if was. 5:27 ZT: Yes because what happened, they were asking for the age, and you had to go and fight, they did not care if you were Kurd or no but you just go fight, because he wanted to be in power you know and they do not want you to be you know to become like fight with Peshmerga, you know the Kurdish army that time and what happened right now because the people was so frustrated so many people become Peshmerga because I know if- 5:56 EI: Were there any Peshmerga within your life or extended family or in the region or what was the Peshmerga I mean? 6:06 ZT: Me personally I did not see Peshmerga until like late because we were young, and Peshmerga usually did not come to the cities and even my father knew some of them or my uncle or my cousin, they were scared to tell the United States because we were young like I told you, you had to be very careful what you are saying because there are fresh memory they going to say it. 6:31 EI: I mean you knew that there are Peshmergas but they were not in the cities? 6:35 ZT: Yes, we knew like when we got older like I do not say I do not exactly remember what age was it we knew there was a Peshmerga we know there was like they fight in the mountains like outside of the cities because what happened right now in this area was better for them to come to the cities because cities you know is dangerous because there is no places for you to hide so in a mountain there is no many people live over there so if you like a fifty or thousand whatever how many there, as soon as do your mission after that you going to be, each of you guys going to go separate way that way is going to be hiding, that was going to be harder for the military to go find those people but if you go to the city and face to face to fight, we knew it and they knew it because they only have like a small weapons like AK 47 or these weapons they are not going to defense yourself against tanks or with a plane that is why they were doing this and they were very strong minded like they were fighting for something they knew something is going to happen as today like the freedom that is why our leaders and everybody saying thank you to those Peshmerga sacrificed their lives; whoever got died, whoever got injured, whoever living still right now we are thanking them because we are seeing the best of Kurdistan so far because now I can talk I can talk to you, you can come to my place, I can go to your place nobody is forcing you to become anybody you do not want to be… like there are colleges open right now, you can attend any college you want, you can go to any major you want, you can be whoever you want; business man, you going to go to the military, this is your choice right now, before you did not have these kind of choices… 8:13 EI: Like a normal country you mean- 8:15 ZT: Exactly, right when we go right now to me this is why I said to you that day we were happy and I am proud to say I am a Kurd because our people are doing good, imagine if they were doing bad you know like the reputation is not that good in nationwide you know they talk about the, you say oh! I am sorry I am going to be embarrassed if I say I am this part or this place and I’m with guy because now you are proud because if you look at some of these Kurds like if you are American or if you Turkish or you are this, if your culture is doing good, you are proud to say I am this- 8:50 EI: You mean do not good like if they suppressed your people or there was no freedom. 8:55 ZT: No because these is no freedom like if you look at it right now, if you look at some of these countries like they have dictators, they are embarrassed to say I am from this country, not because of people they are embarrassed, if I say the people going to look at me in different eyes, oh! you are with this kind of group even if the people have nothing to do with it. 9:14 EI: I mean you are happy to say that you are I am Kurd. 9:18 ZT: I am Kurd you know I live in this place yes. 9:22 EI: So, how the childhood, do you have any special memories about childhood with your family I mean it will be about religious day, or Eid or I mean doing Ramadhan how was- 9:34 ZT: The best thing to be honest like even right now we miss those days. 9:38 EI: Maybe bad memories… or good memories that affected t you or you remember always from your childhood. 9:44 ZT: Yes, what happened right now because in Iraq the time even if you make money you are scared to do anything and parents are so afraid to say or do something because they know somebody is watching them or somebody is going to do something, So I think it was not I do not know. 10:00 EI: These are the nineteen eighties right you are talking about? 10:02 ZT: Yes probably eighties, eighty eight, eighty nine, I am not saying eighties because I was born like (19)78, (19)79 so imagine probably I am like ten or eleven years old, so one day I was telling my parents like my mum specially do not wake me up because I do not have shoes to go to Eid like to go celebrate, what happened right now because that time my father was working hard but the thing is right now. 10:30 EI: What was his job? 10:32 ZT: His job was like construction, you know they taking tanks, those trucks you know they taking like dirt from this place to that place or taking some of the stuff they working for construction if they build the roads. 10:46 EI: Building? 10:46 ZT: No, the roads, you know right now you do not have other choices so you have to do this and that time was the construction was even dangerous than military because sometime you are facing close to your enemy because when you build, when you are trying build the roads, or bridge or something it is not safe. 11:04 EI: I mean what was the authority there Saddam or was there any Kurdish rule? 11:09 ZT: No, that time until 1991 the big explosion. 11:16 EI: It was the Iraqi Road. 11:18 ZT: Yes, the Iraqi road. 11:19 EI: I mean when they get their salary it was from Iraq. 11:23 ZT: Yes, everything was Iraq, no Iraq was until wherever the year Iraq was established until 1991 none of the Kurd controlled anything or everything was under the control of Saddam Hussein and he was running the whole country. And your liked or do not like it you had to follow that law. So that is why I am saying right now…. 11:43 EI: I mean it is reality for now maybe it is weird but for that time it is reality you had to survive. 11:49 ZT: I tell everybody right now I do not argue; sometimes say why these people they do not do this because you do not know exactly what situation these people are in. 11:59 EI: Yeah exactly. 12:00 ZT: because you do not know exactly if they are living a good life or bad life, they live in a dangerous life or safe life so you cannot judge a person just looking at them an say why this guy not doing this, he should speak up for himself. 12:12 EI: Exactly 12:13 ZT: because we saw these things and we saw so many Kurds speaking up and they got killed and that was not just easy like I said to you our leader was saying we thought, the only friend of the United States is the mountains because everybody having these things because their head, because Peshmerga when they were fighting. 12:32 EI: It is so common among all Kurds I think. 12:37 ZT: Yes exactly if you talk to anybody they were afraid for their life even if you become part of their military or somebody, you are afraid because if one day even by mistake or I do not like you and go to that place wherever the cop was, whatever the type was if I go to them and say this guy doing this even if you are not doing it just because I do not like you, you would disappear, they going to beat you, your family; one of my cousin he was educated, really knowledgeable and working because he had no other choice you have to be in the military, so one day, because he was on vacation he was trying to go home with his family and may be one person they did not like him because maybe his friend for example you are from this part I am from that part, Like Arab and Kurd for example say that person he know, this guy is a knowledgeable person and he knows, he is really good and he is said something to his boss “oh these guys doing something bad what he is doing, he is making IDs and Passport and taking the Kurds outside the Iraq and sending them to other country” say for example Europe or going to Iran and from Iran they are travelling to Europe and this guy trying to come to home with his family and what happened right now a couple hour later they went to his house in Baghdad and taking a shower and leave to come to Duhok and they too they say your general or your boss or this person want to see you, and he said why because I saw him probably a couple of hours ago, so he went that minute and disappeared like for a year, his mum and dad and hour family none of them like our parents nobody knew what exactly where he was, if he is alive, in a prison. 14:39 EI: Even you did not know about him? 14:41 ZT: Nobody until they say probably like way-way back, I do not know nine months, eleven months, almost a year they got a letter saying if you want to see your son, he is in that prison, Abu-Ghraib in Baghdad or Basra, whatever the place was. 14:57 EI: It is so famous Abu-Ghraib. 14:58 ZT: One of the worst probably prison in the world and he did not know exactly what was going on and his family does not know what was going on and they were trying to go and see him and talk to him and he could not say anything that minute, but right now he said you see the worst beating in your life, whatever you imagine in your head like whatever you are going to be having dream about is reality in there, the worst like life you ever have like they torture you, they did not give you right food and the room was like probably eight by eleven or smaller room you can ever have for four, five people, if couple of them sit I do not think the other person can be sitting or he cannot lay your feet to make them comfortable and you have to go to the bathroom right over there so you would see all the worst thing in that room because you have to pee or like whatever happen is in that small room it is not like you have to be comfortable, or is going to be a separate bathroom or this or food is going to be one of these food you going to enjoy it, so the life was miserable he said that. He said that is why when they think after a couple of years and Saddam Hussein was you know letting some people you know go out because they had nothing on their names as soon as he got out from the prison and he ran, he went to Iran and I believe he went to Europe and he said I am not going to come to Iraq until this government is gone from the power because he saw so many torturing… Like the torture you even cannot imagine what kind of torturing like in your life because he said I saw everything. That is why I say right now and our parents knew this like my father knew it because he was part of our family too but he did not tell the United States, he did not say anything to young people because they knew if they going to say something the whole public village, the whole people going to be dying. 17:09 EI: So, you are telling about the memory or the story of Eid, you said- 17:15 ZT: Yes, so I told my mum do not wake me up because I do not have shoes and if you do not have new shoes. 17:19 EI: Was it because you were the financial problem or- 17:25 ZT: What happened, finance problem because they do not give you, even they give you some money like Iraq the rich, imagine Iraq was so rich nobody knew how much money Iraq can make would only deeds not just gas or oil and these things Iraq was so rich but the thing is Saddam Hussein knows one day Kurds is going to be running by their own government, he knew it that is why until like 1998 or 1999 the Iraqi part like Kurdistan did not have an airport, they did not have any infrastructure like a good road, like anything, why because Saddam Hussein knew one day this place or these cities are going to be out of his hands, he knew it because majority were Kurds that is why he was doing what they call it invasion, like Ta’reeb [Arabization] like what happened right now, this is why he was moving Kurds from north, he was taking them to the south and imagine you live in a mountain in a snow area like beautiful weather, you are not used to live in a desert, so they took a lot of, even I think a couple our families they went from because there was no choice, so they moved them from the northern. 18:54 EI: You mean displacement? 18:55 ZT: Yes, because he wanted to change the demographic of the whole country. 18:59 EI: What was the reason? 19:00 ZT: Because he did not want majority of a place to be Kurds, because what he was doing. 19:06 EI: What was the demographic situation of Duhok? 19:08 ZT: Duhok what happened right now there were Kurd like Muslim, Christian, Jewish, you mentioned they have all these ethnics and religion. 19:20 EI: But the majority were Kurd? 19:22 ZT: Majority was Kurd, even some of them like our friends were like Christians or other ethnics, me personally I thought they might be Muslim, why because they speak the same language, they were- 19:32 EI: All were Arabs right? 19:34 ZT: They were Kurds. No, they were speaking Kurdish but they had nothing in Kurdi lie you cannot speak or I have any paper like in office, if you need something has to be done with Arabic. 19:41 EI: With your family your language was Kurdish. 19:46 ZT: Kurdish. 19:47 EI: In street it was Kurdish but in school or state institution was Arabic. 19:53 ZT: School majority was Arabic like you had to, I think I remember I think was only one class of Kurdish and that Kurdish was not even like a right thing sometimes have some letters you know, word in Arabic so basically if you have like six classes, four of them is going to be Arabic like in fifth grade we had one class of English and we had one class probably Kurdish or not, sometimes in some classes like some like I think in elementary school there was not even one class in Kurdish. So, everything was Arabic. So we had to learn no matter if you like it or do not like it. 20:34 EI: So It was Education language, all state institution… were there any school that teach Kurdish or Kurdish school. 20:45 ZT: No. From one end to another end in Iraq everything was, if you were under the territory of government, because if you look at village of here it is under the Peshmerga, this not counted but the majority of Iraq was under control of Saddam Hussein, so everything had to be like Arabic school, because one of the interviewee said he got his education in Kurdish school, it was in Erbil I think. That is you said it was under Peshmerga control. 21:15 ZT: Yes-yes. 21:16 EI: So that is why but the majority was Arabic. 21:19 ZT: Arabic yes. Even couple of our cousin they got their education, they got their really good degrees but because they were Kurd, they were not allowed to go to their major, because they considered us as a second like in Iraq, if you … like in the United States right now nobody knows who is number one who is number two, we all think we are American and we have right to do whatever we want. 21:46 EI: So, you said there were Christian, Jewish and Arabs as well. So, what was your relation with them? I mean were there any differences or did you know which one is Arab or is Christian? 22:03 ZT: Most of them were Christian. 22:04 EI: I mean they have to be in any problem but- 22:06 ZT: No Christians even until now I think one of the best place for all ethnic to live is Kurdistan, because until now I have not heard any, sometimes you see like you know when we have four-five million or ten million people, when you have five families or ten family, one family is going to be bad, and one family is going to be good, if you have like five brothers, not all five brothers going to like have master degree on for example like become engineer, maybe one of them be engineer, maybe one of them be a doctor, maybe one of them be a teacher, so in family we have this. So imagine if you have like a four five million people, you going to have like one bad person, can I consider that as a whole nation is bad, so what happened right now as a Kurd to be honest with you we have like neighbors like Christians the Ramadhan time when we were fasting, they even do not eat, they were eating, a couple of times like my father told them like our neighbor, said why you guys do not respect to your month of Ramadhan, and we say wow loot at right now, they respecting not eating in front of the United States because of Ramadhan, so they were so noise we were like going to their home like knowing was there celebration like any celebration, was like a Muslim celebration, Christian whatever we go congratulate them, make them comfortable whatever is going to be, a birthday party or Eid or I mean Christmas, whatever was it Muslim people go check with their neighbor when was a different celebration for Muslims they were coming to the United States and saying happy or this or that. So what happened right now is joyful like you would not even sometimes like I told you a couple of my friends honestly I did not know exactly if they were Christian or Muslim because I am not saying because if you pray that is between you and you God, so you go to that room, but like when we were playing soccer or playing any games, nobody say oh! you are from this part of from this ethnic or from this religion, you have to go with… No, we all play, we all having fun because especially the kids what you have in your mind, having fun is the only thing you have. 24:26 EI: What about the teachers? Were they all Arabs? 24:28 ZT: Teachers, no most of them I think like to me probably majority of them were Kurd but they were speaking Arabic too because most of the classes, like they were talking like I talk to you right now I can say start like in Kurdish, but when you go to the subjects it had to be Arabic because history, geography you know math. 24:51 EI: You mean out of class you talk Kurdish. 24:54 ZT: Sometimes we like couple of my cousins and friends we spoke. 24:58 EI: What about teachers? 25:00 ZT: Teachers sometimes they speak Kurdish but like I told you if they go to subject was Arabic… 25:05 EI: Where they afraid or something? 25:08 ZT: See that is why I am saying right now, probably, and that is why they could not say anything. 25:13 EI: I mean what about in Education in history, did they ever about the Kurds in class I mean were there the name of the Kurd in the book or something? 25:23 ZT: No, Nothing. That is why we say right now the history sometimes like I told everybody do not listen to the history, because history for example I am going to right history I am going to talk about only Kurd, so they were doing history about Iraq, how they did this, they did that. 25:40 EI: The national history. 25:41 ZT: Pretty much yes. There was no a single name about the Kurds, how they lived, where they were, how many are there- 25:51 EI: You know that there are but in the book. 25:54 ZT: Yes because like I said when sometimes I go see my grandfather or like this, in front of the United States they are happy, you know they were smiling you know, I knew he like I am saying to myself right now I can say it right now inside probably they were burning because they would not speak up, they would not say something that never said it before but that time was what happened right now because if they say something and we were kids we could have probably go to see my friends I come to you and I say something to you and you went to say something to the other kids you know and from there they going to come in and my family will probably be in trouble, even because I said it I am saying I am ten years old, and imagine right now I am ten years old you are not supposed to be listening sometimes to ten years old what he saying or she saying. 26:48 EI: Okay so in 1988, (19)86 you were going to school, right? 26:53 ZT: Yes. 26:54 EI: Okay. So actually, it was the bad time for the Kurds as I know, yeah. 26:59 ZT: Yes. 26:59 EI: So, I mean there were political instability and how were you affected in school I mean were you aware of that? What about for example if there was a bombing or something, were you talking about it in school or you teacher? 27:15 ZT: No, because like I told you parents did not speak or did not mention anything in front of their kids, like I told you they were afraid to say, like I said to you right now I can say my father, my grandfather, my uncles probably they were burning that day, because they heard so many things and they could not speak up, even to you or to me, for example. What happened right now like I said to myself they have right because when you have this kind of government if a kid says something and you destroy the whole family, then they were right that time not to say anything, they did not speak or did not talk, why? Because what if I said something, because maybe I am a kid you know, I do not know there is going to be hurting me or making me go to bed, what if I told my friend oh! my father yesterday he was saying you know what Peshmerga or this or was in this mountain or they were doing this, and what the other kids say, oh! you know this guy was talking about this thing yesterday about his father. So from there, you may be put your family in danger. 28:27 EI: What about your teachers, I mean did they imposed the Saddam? 28:30 ZT: No. 28:30 EI: They did not talk. 28:31 ZT: No. Because like I said even if I was a teacher. 28:36 EI: I mean they did not say Saddam is great or something. 28:41 ZT: Oh! yes-yes. What happened right now. 28:43 EI: They do not have to criticize it but I mean for example. 28:46 ZT: My friend if you had no picture of Saddam Hussein in your house and they come in and they do not see a picture of Saddam Hussein in your house, I mean you do not like him, so my friend for example what do you mean I do not like him. Say for example I am living in this country I am living under the rule of law but if you do not have his picture in the wall in your home, and you do not know exactly when they going to be walking to your house and just having some excuses oh I am looking for this, but probably they heard something yes they want some excuses, they come in, oh! I do not see any pictures, why? Oh! now what type of excuse you going to have, because now you got to be really scared, because if you do not have a picture of him, so look at it right now, you are living in the country, do you have any president of the United States picture on your wall or on your phone? No. 29:39 EI: If you want. 29:40 ZT: If you wanted you can put it, if you do not want it you do not have to say I like this guy or I want this guy, so in Iraq was so bad like if you do not have a picture of him on the wall in your home, you have no right…So, this is your probably you can do whatever you want, guess what! No, still the government warns you. So, you have to follow, listen do whatever they want you to do. That is how bad it was. So imagine why the teachers going to be speaking because they know their life is in danger too, I am not saying most of teachers probably were so much hurting like burning inside, they wanted to speak, but the thing is right now they have like families, brothers, sisters you know they do not want to like I say why I am going to speak because if I said something, it is not like in this country like in the United States if you do something bad, if you are eighteen or above, they going to take you, you have to defend yourself like they are not going to take your father, your mother, your sister, oh this guy did something, we going to punish you. So, if say over there if you did something even if you ran away, they are not going to say, or we going to wait for that person we going to look for that person because he did something bad not his family, if you did something and you run away, your father, your mother, your sister, your brother probably your village is in trouble. That is why we were saying do not do it. And so many time people did it anyway. But because what happened right now when you fighting a government size of Saddam Hussein like they say you have so many undercovers and so many bodyguards you will not even believe it and right now sometimes if you see it they have doubled, his son has doubled, he has doubled and when you have these things you do not know exactly if you have the right person if they are the right Saddam Hussein or if they are number two Saddam Hussein. So, if you attack even if you say injure him, no he is injured but he is not the right injured because the right one is over their sitting. So, you going to come in and destroy, that is why what happened right now in some of the cities in Halabja like even in south right now like they got martyrs in the street nobody can speak, why? Because of oh- They did something, they were against the government. So this is what happened right now in northern Iraq right now they know is bad teachers knew this is not right but each person was trying to save him or her life from something happen to their life or their family’s life. 32:27 EI: Okay. So how many years did you get education in Duhok? 32:30 ZT: I finished elementary school. 32:33 EI: How long it took? 32:35 ZT: what happened right now the system was different, six years. Because we had six classes from one you had to go to all the way to, 1st grade, 2nd grade, 3rd grade you had to go sixth and you graduate you going to go to middle school, then the high school. 32:52 EI: So, you finished high school. 32:54 ZT: I finished high school, because I think it was the last year for my high school or middle school. 32:02 EI: You finished six years and then three years middle school. 33:07 ZT: No I was of my last year of middle school. 33:10 EI: Okay, how long it took to middle school? Three years? 33:13 ZT: Middle school took three years, but the thing is right now why we did not finish it because twice we had to run for our life. Like you know. 33:21 EI: Yeah, we will come to that. 33:23 ZT: So, what happened right now because when you go you miss that year, you have to come back, the system, is not like over here, if you go to class right now, and if you have classes if you fail one of them, they are not going to say okay you have to sit over here. 33:37 EI: But normally in three years you can finish it. 33:40 ZT: Yes. 33:41 EI: Okay I got it. Were there a national day for- 33:45 ZT: Iraq yes but for Kurds no. 33:47 EI: No, yeah, of course. During the national days like they had a break I think, it was a holiday, national holiday or something, so what did you do in that day like in school were there any program or celebration or something? 34:04 ZT: In school pretty much I do not think there was any program in school, the reason honestly we do not know exactly why because they had no money may be they were scared, may be they did not know exactly what kind of program they going to have, like because majority of them were Kurd and like I told you there was a number two under the Arabs in Iraq, that is why our leader are saying right now we do not want to be number two in our own country, so I am not saying we have to be number one and they have to be number two, no. there have to be equality. Like however you want to for yourself, you have to accept it for me too. The way you want it, I want it too. SO I have to respect you, you have to respect me. The way you want to be respected, if you do not respect me, I am not going to respect you. So this is what I am saying right now, so it was national holidays pretty much you say I do not know, it was nothing like any activities or anything like this. 34:58 JT: In Saddam’s birthday I remember we were going on a march we liked him, they said okay on his birthday we had to do something special for him. 35:05 EI: For his birthday? 35:06 JT: His birthday. 35:07 ZT: It was like a holiday because Saddam Hussein anything related to the government was a holiday. 35:12 EI: Not establishment of Iraq, or something but his birthday of Saddam. Okay. 35:18 ZT: Because when you do a demonstration, when you go right now, if you become against say your high school, your school like BU, there is something you have like fifty students and you going to have some posters you going to demonstrate over there this is your own choice and the other kids choice or people choice or your friends or whoever with you this is their choice nobody force them to do something, in Iraq everything was forced, school, if they have like a demonstration going on, every school in the city had to take their students and say we like this government we love this person, we love this president, we love this, we love everything. Like when I remember like in 1991 when there was a war. 36:08 EI: Were there any slogans from that demonstrations? 36:11 ZT: Se what happened right now we were kids, like I was in middle school or elementary school, honestly we even afraid if I for example I try to hide somewhere and run, I say what if somebody sees me in the demonstration and you know what, and none you knew them no way. 36:32 EI: But all demonstrations were to support Saddam? 36:36 ZT: To support Saddam yeah. 36:37 EI: Were there any demonstration against him? 36:39 ZT: No-no. I do not think even in a dram we had a demonstration against Saddam Hussein. Even sometimes like I said our people suffered so much like Kurdish people especially, the Kurdish people suffered so much not just from these things or that things, from everything, right now you saying I hope the government give each person a million dollar make their life so much easier because I know, I am not saying the government give everybody but for million, forty million, twenty million whatever is there, but I am saying right now this is our government is doing so many things right now for the people, because they suffered so much mentally, physically, emotionally, economically we cannot even speak about that, because there was no economic, because if you were a businessman you could not have certain level of your business, you could not be rich, you have this level, you could not cross that level with that step, why? Because if you become richer than them, that government going to be scared, say oh! I am sorry. You have to stop or they going to come in… because why? There was no capitalism, so what happened right now you have no right, you make your money for example, you going to go have your business and, but you know you are not safe, let us put it this way, you know you are not safe, that is why everything was under the, what they call, the bubble, so you have like this, you cannot cross that, you like, sometimes we say, you live in a jail, it is a little bit open but is bigger than a jail, but it is a jail. You have to do this, you have to say this. 38:20 EI: For now, you are talking? 38:22 ZT: No I am talking about Saddam Hussein’s time. For right now, look at right now, you can free market, you can do whatever want, you can go to any school you want, you can be who you want. It is open, what can of education you going to have. 38:32 JT: I want to mention one of your questions about you asked Kak Zeki, about you said you guys did anything daily at school; we had class usually, when the teacher was coming to class you had to stand up and say God bless Saddam Hussein, and many of us said my soul is free for his party. We always had to do this. 38:56 EI: The slogan was “My soul- 38:59 JT: “My soul is free for his party and he use it.” 39:03 EI: Do you remember it in Arabic? 39:05 JT: Yeah. 39:05 EI: Can you say it? 39:06 JT: When you stand up you say (Long Live Saddam Hussein) يعيش صدام حسين and when you sit you say … I do not know exactly because I forgot, when I was…… and the other thing every book they give it to government they had the front of the first page of the book it was Saddam’s picture. 39:31 EI: Okay. 39:31 JT: Yeah, I mean when you start the history, you have to start about who is Saddam and after that you go to all the detail of Arab, where the Arab came from. When you start the Geography you have to start with Iraq and neighboring Kurdistan and go down to all Arab countries. 39:45 EI: Was there any name of Kurdistan? 39:48 JT: No, at all. They called it north of Iraq, they called it shimal. 39:51 EI: Shimal? 39:52 JT: It is an Arabic word, shimal is an Arabic word. 39:56 EI: Does it mean north? 40:00 JT: It means north, I mean any word about Kurdish history. 40:04 EI: Okay. So, you during the 198s, 1988, 1989 and 1990 you were in Duhok right? 40:15 ZT: Yes. 40:15 EI: It was the worst time I think because of the Halabja. 40:21 ZT: What happened in 1988- 40:23 EI: Do you remember anything about that? 40:25 ZT: Because what happened like I said we just, what happened right now in (19)88 was the worst time because for the Kurdish people in general, because now they know they destroy a Kurd in general not because of their religion, not because of their different mentality, is because they are Kurd, that is why they were doing this, they were doing every aspect of things to make sure not for these people not to become successful, the Kurds, as a Kurd. So what happened right now I remember I think it was in 87 when my grandmother and her kids like my aunts and these they were living, because my uncles, couple of them they were living in I am not saying like they were living with the Peshmerga, they were living outside of the cities like it is not of the control of Saddam Hussein, they were living in a village and they do not like this system and my uncle was a Peshmerga and these things so what happened right now they came in and they took my other uncle said your brother is with Peshmerga they put him in jail and my grandmother any her kids, my aunts, they took them to outside the city, they drop them of like some places outside and said go from here. 41:53 EI: Okay. 41:53 ZT: And because my grandmother was living in that area, she knew and they had to walk I do not know how many miles because to be honest we do not know but it is probably an hour, and a half to walk from there to get the destination just to be a little bit free and not to be scared, so my uncle was in jail for like a year and plus because of one thing, he had not done anything, he was ins school, he was the top student in his school until now we say if he was not become like that, like Saddam Hussein did not take him, probably he would like become a doctor or an engineer, he was the best student, my father still saying right now, says we went to school one day to check on him you know how he is doing, the teacher said why you guys are here? Did we ask you guys to come here? We do not need you guys be here for him. That is how good he was, like he was the top of his class in school. But because what happened right now they put him in jail for one year and he had nothing to do with his brother over there. That is why I am saying the government was so bad, so what happened right now my father, I visited him a couple of times in jail- 42:59 EI: Your uncle? 43:00 ZT: My uncle- 43:01 EI: You visited him? 43:02 ZT: Yes. I visited him a couple of time in jail I mean guess what, the guard was so strong. 43:08 EI: Where was the jail, Baghdad? 43:10 ZT: No, it was outside Duhok probably 20 minutes from Duhok was called Simel. Soo, it was one of… what happened right now because he had not done anything wrong or he had not anything to harm the government, so they put him in a jail, one jail they say we not going to mention or not going to put him in jail for his life, they did not put any sentence on him and they said we going to put in jail. 43:43 EI: Was there any court, like they just put, take and put to jail, like there was no judgement or something or even- 43:55 ZT: No, there is no judge, even with the judge, the judge for example what a judge is going to do. He is guilty, permanent jail for his life. 43:55 EI: Okay. 43:55 ZT: So, there was nothing, so my uncle what happened right now. 43:57 EI: I mean there was no defense, right? 44:01 ZT: No, there was nothing, and even right now you know it you have not done do for example what happened right now they told my grandfather if you bring your other son back, they going to let him be free, so he has to stay in jail, and everybody told my grandfather go bring, and you know he was his father, my uncle, his father like in the village in Peshmerga, so they said go bring your other son home that way this son can be free, my grandfather said, are you guys crazy, if I go bring my other son back. 45:10 EI: Peshmerga guy… Okay. 45:11 ZT: And I guarantee you guys he will be next to him or they both going to be die. 45:12 EI: Okay. 45:12 ZT: So, I can lose one of my sons, I do not want to lose both of them. So, this is how my grandfather knew it. And he was not educated like have a master degree in politics but he saw and he was one of the smartest probably in our village, like we had a village probably three –four –five thousand people, they call it… He was really smart, and knowledgeable person and a lot of people went to say why did not you go and bring son just bring him, they want you to bring your son home, so they can let this guy go. Go be free. And my grandfather said, what you guys thinking, you really think I am going to bring my son and they going to let both of the go, I guarantee you if I bring him back they going to put him with him, both going to be die, and until a year and plus and one old lady Saddam Hussein came to Duhok and one old lady dancing in front of Saddam Hussein and she had something to tell him and she said you know what my son I do not know if he is still alive or not but my son is like age of that, like in prison, so with your power and your willing and your …. Mentioning all these beautiful names to Saddam Hussein, if you let my son go, I will be happy. And they said people over there this is Saddam Hussein’s word saying “If your son is alive, he will be free but if he is dead like they killed him, sorry for your loss” This is how is- 46:16 EI: Who was that woman? 46:18 ZT: I do not know she was an old lady that time living in Duhok and she was… you know- 46:25 EI: Kurd? 46:25 ZT: Kurd yeah, all Kurdish. 46:27 EI: Always came to visit Duhok? 46:29 ZT: What happened, Saddam Hussein sometimes came to cities just to go and cross that and go some places, have fun you know on vacation and she when he came in, sometimes you know he would stop in some places for five or ten minutes and that time she was doing that- 46:44 EI: She got a chance- 46:45 ZT: She got a chance you know and she said this is my son’s situation, so you let my son be free. And Saddam Hussein, the people was all there they were saying this was Saddam Hussein’s word: If he is still alive, he will be free, if the guard had killed him, sorry for your loss. So I do not know what happened if the son was free or he had got killed but among those people they say if there is nothing under your name like if you have not harmed the government, if you did not do, if you did not say anything about the government or the president or anything to do with the government we going to let them be freed, all these people in jail. So my uncle was one of them, and I think like kind of a week or so my father said do not stay in the city any more, go next to your brother, go see your brother, go and live with them. 47:44 EI: Okay, so you mentioned about displacement, like Saddam changed demography or something, did you affected with it, did your family affected by the demographic change, did you run away from the country or from bombing. 47:58 ZT: As my family, my father because what happened right now because my father was in the construction company, and construction is not like I mean, your work with like civilian company, you are working the government. So that time because my grandfathers both for them as a father’s side and mother’s side they were both close to the Peshmerga in the villages aside of the Duhok probably taking about an hour something like that driving, so they were under control of the pretty much Peshmerga was on control of the Saddam Hussein, you could come to the Duhok, but you would be scared like my uncle I think he got sick one day, I do not know he had to have a surgery I do not know was like liver or something like, I honestly do not even remember it was his father, it is like an hour from, if he come to Duhok it is like an hour, they took him to Iran because he was scared to come to Duhok, and if they find out where he live, why he is- 49:05 EI: As I understand like in that time Iran had good relations with Kurds, right? Because Iran was in conflict with Iraq- 49:13 ZT: Yes, what happened right now, the politician is all business, so the Kurd they just want somebody to be- 49:21 EI: You said when the Kurds wanted to leave the country they firstly went to Iran, and then to Europe or the United States- 49:21 ZT: What happened right now is that Turk, the Turkish border was harder because what happened right now the government controlled better like the Iraqi government because you had few spots and if you want to cross that mountain and this thing is not going to be safer because of a lot of animals, a lot of danger like wild animals going on, so Iran what happened because of the war, they did not like each other a lot and Saddam Hussein and the border was little bit longer than the Turkish borders so it was a little bit easier for people to cross the Iranian border than Turkish, because Turkey they had a couple of gates, pretty much were controlled by Saddam Hussein’s government, so how you going to say I am going to be running away from this country. So, this way was a little easier otherwise Turkey was easier to cross to go to Europe because Iran you had to go over there, they did not know exactly how- 50:28 EI: Do remember the Turkish state treatment to the Iraqi Kurds in that time like was it, will they provide you a way to run away from your country- 50:38 ZT: Any government they do not want to put themselves in other government’s business, so like I said if I am president of these country and you president of that country you going to say you know what we have to respect each other as a separate, so even Turkey knew right now how Iraq is that but because of the other countries not saying anything, the strongest countries, so right now Iran and Turk help us a lot, they open sometimes border for us to cross and to go over there, it was a good thing to be honest with you because imagine if they did not open their- 51:13 EI: Now you are talking about? 51:15 ZT: No, I am talking about Saddam Hussein’s time like in 1991 when we, there was upraising happened like million, that is became huge news in the whole world, when the upraising happened- 51:27 EI: Do you remember when the upraising happened it was 1991? 51:29 ZT: Yes, I remember honestly, we walked I do not know I think for ten, thirteen days we walked like what happened right now. 51:39 JT: I want to mention this, Iran was more open with Kurdish people who live in, they are more open to the Kurds because they had a war with Saddam, it was easier to go Iran more than go to Turkey. Turkey that time it was I am not saying very relationship with Iraq, but they had a relationship with business because they never, I am not saying never, but they did not accept Kurdish refugee. 52:17 EI: And in that time Turkey like 1990s was the worst time for Turkey as well because like they were fighting against PKK… They had problem with their Kurds as well so. 52:26 JT: Iran was more open because if you looking at the fighter, each fighter, I mean the fighter has a party you know, the party and headquarters for all Kurdish parties were in Iran, none was in Turkey. If anybody or anyone wants go to have a medical problem they go to Iran. My father one of them, he was a fighter and he had a little bit small or problem for surgery, he could not drive one hour to go to the city of Duhok, he walk around or he had a horse probably arrive in ten days to Iran. 53:06 EI: Okay. You said you walked for twelve days, it was like you were running away from country or? 53:14 ZT: Yes, because what happened the city we run- 53:17 EI: You left Duhok? 53:18 ZT: Duhok. 53:19 EI: Why? 53:19 ZT: There was a car, because what happened right now in 1991 the war happened between Saddam Hussein and Kuwait and the united Nations, the thirty countries and the United States among them they said we have to do something you know, the government controlled a different country because Kuwait was a different country even they said. 53:40 EI: Yes, Saddam attacked the country in international power they tried to stop Saddam, so what the situation of the Kurds in that time? 53:48 ZT: The Kurds because what happened right now- 53:50 JT: The upraising, after upraising, Saddam coming back- 53:54 EI: Saddam attacked Kuwait and Kurds uprised, Kurdish uprising happened or- 54:00 ZT: No, when the United Nations included all thirty countries gave Saddam Hussein a deadline, you have to get your troops out of Kuwait or you have to face the consequences, so Saddam Hussein said this my nineteenth city I am not going to leave Kuwait, Kuwait is an Iraqi city, and long story short when the war happened, because Saddam Hussein was fighting with this side so the Kurdish people fighting the other side, so the Kurdish people, the Iraqi government was not strong, the Kurdish military with the people, not only Peshmerga because people stood and upraised that- 54:49 EI: I mean the upraising became it was spread to ground like people participated. 55:02 ZT: Yes, Peshmerga coming with them, what happened right now. 55:06 EI: But they were led by the Peshmerga, they were directed or- 55:09 ZT: Peshmerga knew it, like in, I do not know if you watched it president Barzani in 88 in I think was meeting with Peshmerga in one mountain and he said the government of Iraq is getting weaker, so it has to change some of his tone, whether is going to agree with Kurds to make you know the Peshmerga or it has to do something because economically it is getting weak, physically, emotionally like every aspect is getting weak, because when they went to war when he did the chemical in Halabja, the leader knew it and a lot of people said how did he knew, and in 88 if you look it right now in Khwakurg, he is talking to the Peshmerga saying bear with us, be patient you know things are going to change soon. This is what happened in 91. So 91 what happened Saddam Hussein went to Kuwait and the countries were fighting, so the Kurdish people in another side fight and the military did not fight, some of them fought because they knew the Kurdish people upraise and there is going to be a crazy, there is going to be a war if they going to fight, but the Kurdish people even that time; if you give up your weapon and you become like give it up, Kurdish people did not even kill anybody, and that is why we say right now that Kurdish people is one of the probably nation you could not imagine what kind of nation it was because you saw from your own eyes or heard these people are they kill your brother, your sister, your uncle. 56:55 EI: So, you are telling about the Peshmerga that they did not kill the Saddam army. 57:01 ZT: No, yeah because with the army was like in the city of Duhok and Erbil and Sulaimaniya they had basis. 57:10 EI: Okay when Peshmerga started to control back so they did not attack them. 57:15 ZT: No, if you give it up, if you fight we going to fight, because you are in our territory, so a lot of them, I am talking majority of them they knew because they were there for example you did not want to be there, just you, because you have to be there just because of the force, like you know they have to say if you do not go we going to kill him, so when they knew these things happening most of them they gave it up, like they put their weapon raised their hands said “Okay.” 57:46 EI: The Iraqi soldiers? 57:49 ZT: The Iraqi soldiers, and the Kurdish military, the Kurdish government, I am talking about the Peshmerga, if you do not fight most of them really nice way you know they put them somewhere and after probably a while they took them to outside of Duhok you know like it was called Faidhiya, probably like fifteen or twenty minutes away outside of Duhok and they let them go. And some of them said we do not want to go back, some of them said no we want to live over here, if you go back probably you going to get killed. So, what happened right now, with that happened the Kurdish people controlled even Kirkuk, they controlled and I do not know what happened because like I told you politician, things changed so Saddam Hussein was getting weak and, in this side, fighting with Kurds and this side pretty much. 58:43 EI: Shiite uprised against at the same time, and what happened right now, I do not know something happened, and I do not know they were scared of Iran or they were scared of any other countries to interfere with Iraq and they said that to be stopped right here, like American militaries and Saddam Hussein okay, they going to stop right here, and then you lift your helicopters so when they did that, the worst thing happened what they call in south, they were killing so many people because the Kurds have mountains and can go to the mountain, the killing is not going to be as bad as like if you are living in desert, you know it is open, so you can do whatever, so what happened right now when they stopped that Saddam Hussein had some power and he brought his troops close to Duhok and these places and they have good troops, still have thousands of thousand troops, the Kurdish people did not have weapon to defend themselves against the tanks and the plane, so what happened right now they said Saddam Hussein is going to come in and control the rest of the cities of Iraq like Duhok, Erbil Sulaimaniya and Kirkuk. So people got scared for their life, even the Peshmerga said do not run we going to be fighting until the last minute, but you going to say you know what we only have AK47, they have plane, they have this, they have that, so the fear is going to get you worse than anything else, so you going to say no I am going to run, so what happened. 1:00:28 EI: So, the migration started then. 1:00:32 ZT: Yes, so the people ran. 1:00:33 EI: Okay, now just to summarize in 1991, when Saddam attacked Kuwait, Kurds uprised, there are Kurdish uprising and then Kurds started to get control of the cities that they are majority in like Duhok, Erbil, Sulaimaniya and Kirkuk, and then Saddam came back after the war, after the gulf war and he said he will again invade Kurdish cities, in that time the Kurds started to migrate to the borders. 1:01:05 ZT: Half of them went to Iran, because wherever they close to- 1:01:10 EI: So, what do you remember about that migration, and- 1:01:13 ZT: Men was in one hand was really good cause it was everybody. We know a lot of knew this is going to be huge for the Kurds because why is going to be, it cannot be going under the media again, is going to be the uprising in the media too because all the media is going to be there because millions of people, it is going to be crossing the borders so they were hopefully want they going to be Kurdish voice going to be going up again. We do not need the mountain our friends, so when we wanted other country to become our friend and to help us, so this is what happened, when those people uprised, went to Turkey, went to Iran, and the United States, France and all the other countries came and helped, you know Turkey, they opened those camps you know like they opened those. 1:02:06 JT: How were the camps, did you have a bathroom, did you have anything? No. there was nothing, talking about your life in the camp. 1:02:13 ZT: What happened right now the life in the camps was not good, like- 1:02:15 EI: You were in Iran- 1:02:16 ZT: Turkey- 1:02:17 JT: If you see, right now Turkey has refugees, they accept the Syrian refugees, you see the camps there, tents and was it the same for you? 1:02:30 ZT: No, what happened right now because like I said our situation was different because that time the Kurdish voice was under the bubbles, like I told you under the one’s roof- 1:02:44 EI: I mean you want to say there was a huge suffering and that sufferings will attracts attention, you were expecting to attract attention. 1:02:52 ZT: Yes because what happened right now, you know few do a good thing, you know if you do a good job and you stand up and you do for days, months, years, one day hopefully for this position you going to get to that position, you know because if you are a good employee and you do right things and you are helping everybody, and you become a really a good group leader or supervisor, one day you know you going to be going upper. So same thing with these things. We knew it is life is not going to easy, and you are running from home, you come in to some mountain live in. 1:03:29 EI: So, when Saddam came back to get control again in Duhok or other cities, where there any attack of him, like did they attack civilians? 1:03:38 ZT: Peshmerga fought- 1:03:40 EI: Was there any conflict on street or? 1:03:45 ZT: Because we ran honestly, we moved I do not know exactly if anything happened any war, but Saddam Hussein was throwing like tanks were believe me were, couple of my friend like in the city where living they heard so many noises, there were bombings, they were doing a lot of stuff. Like because what happened right now if you have AK47 you cannot fight a tank, if a tank see you over there, it is stronger than you, so that is why people running for their life, they knew if anybody get caught is going to die because couple months ago you uprised against me, so now we going to be in control, what I am going to do to you. Do you think I am going to give you guys a cake? This is something going to be, we going to be facing the consequences, we going to kill you. 1:04:33 EI: As I understand people were told that punishment would be bigger because of uprising. 1:04:37 ZT: Because what happened right now when you, if me and you agree in a business and tomorrow you say you know what I am going to go separate way, and you go your separate way and you lost all your money, whatever reason was, and you come in next day say you know what Zeki I am sorry I want to be your partner again, I am going to say okay let us put the money; I do not have it. How I am going to be your partner? So same thing we were saying because we were scared we were Iraq, now we uprised against Saddam Hussein’s government and we become our own independence, safe, part of Iraq and now if they, we know if Saddam Hussein came in and control these things and you get caught, you going to be facing one of the probably worst things in your life whatever is going to be. Killing or prison. 1:05:28 EI: So, you were like how many days did it take to going to Turkish border? 1:05:34 ZT: I think we because whatever different people got there different days, because some people they knew some shortcuts, I think it took us like ten to thirteen, twelve days walk whatever right now. 1:05:49 EI: All family or? 1:05:50 ZT: Most of the family yes because we were- 1:05:54 EI: I mean with family I mean the children, women, girl the elderly? 1:06:00 ZT: Like you see some of the stuff honestly if you have pictures if you record that, you could not even believe it right now. And I know sometimes I say maybe have a dream. I saw those things, like I saw some old ladies or old men they left them behind, like for example your grandfather, father got old and you had to put him on your shoulder, everybody was trying to get to the point faster that they can because they do not exactly somebody behind them they going to get captured. If you get captured, get caught, you going to get killed. So I am not saying right or wrong, you saw so many kids dying, I think it was in they call it Jalee like in border in Turkey when we were staying in our camp I think they opened one graveyard became like thousands of thousands of people dying because of the cold, water, no food. Like I think was a holiday was like a Eid they did not have a bread in our home. So, my father and my uncle they got so mad and these things and they said we going to cross the borders because the government of Turkey they did not let us to go to the cities and because- 1:07:15 EI: They did not allow you to go out? 1:07:13 ZT: Yeah, they did not allow it because imagine if thousands of thousands of refugees, so they going to let me go, they going to let him go, they going to let you go. It is got to be something, they did not want anything happen. 1:07:24 EI: How was the condition? 1:07:26 ZT: The condition was not that good. 1:07:27 EI: The physical condition? 1:07:28 ZT: It was not that good, until the United States came in and they changed some of the- 1:07:35 JT: Sorry Zeki, but the United States did not have anybody’s name to give food; they sent it by aero plane. I mean it was not camp that they somebody respect you- 1:07:45 EI: I mean it was not organized or when you came from Iraq like you left your homeland you came with nothing right? 1:07:56 ZT: Nothing. 1:07:56 EI: So, there was not a place for you to sleep or to get shower or something? 1:08:02 ZT: No. 1:08:02 EI: It was not organized you mean, that right? 1:08:05 ZT: No, it was not organized no. 1:08:07 EI: Just the mountains or? 1:08:08 ZT: Like I am telling you like probably we were like in a hill, probably like a mountain, a hill and it was like because people were everywhere, like I told you a million of people going, crossing the border and after that you know they got, some people got tents, some people they got this, by the plane throwing like- 1:08:31 EI: They threw it from the planes? 1:08:35 ZT: the plane, those big planes food, especially was called dry foods, because you heat it or you can open the back and eat it. Because they did not have this kind of food like rise, chicken oil these things you can cook it, because you have no place, you have nothing, but after a couple of weeks gone you know, they got like some put some tents, brought some doctors, you know they were checking, and what happened right now because you walked so much, the cold so strong, and there was nothing for you to protect and you did not have many clothes to put on, blankets, so this is why so many kids died. 1:09:32 EI: Okay. So after that, you went back to the city. 1:09:35 ZT: Yes. I think it was- 1:09:37 EI: How long did it take the camp life? 1:09:40 ZT: It took a couple of months. What happened right now. 1:09:45 EI: And when you came back to Duhok, to your own home? 1:09:49 ZT: Yes. 1:09:49 EI: Did you lose any one in your family during that process? 1:09:55 ZT: Probably children, maybe I do not know because some of them went to Iran, some of them… but as adult like we say thank God everybody was okay, like nobody got injured, I know like some minor things going over here and there but like big things not happened. This will be thanking god because things happen for a reason, so we thanking God nothing happened. 1:10:20 EI: So. you back to Duhok again, your home and it was 1991 or (19)92? 1:10:27 ZT: It was almost like 1991 like we stayed a couple of months in there so we came back. 1:10:33 EI: Who was the governor of Duhok at that time? 1:10:38 ZT: At that time when we came back the Kurdish people was controlling but the thing is right now even worse, what happened the sanction was on Iraq, there was no food, Iraq could not sell oil, they put a sanction on Iraq, so right now with a Kurd become independent, I am not saying independent, like a separate. 1:11:00 EI: Autonomous. 1:11:00 ZT: Autonomous, like independent from Iraq, the Iraqi government put sanction on the Kurds, so now. 1:11:07 EI: So, the control of Duhok was like the Kurds control in that time? 1:11:12 ZT: Yes, but the thing is right now like people was so suffering, what happened right now the Kurdish government had no resources, where they going to bring the resources, where they going to bring food, you have to bring it from Iran, Turkey, Iraq because everybody closed their doors, their borders because still was sanction on Iraq itself. 1:11:35 EI: Was there any institutional government there, Iraqi government there? Saddam or? 1:11:41 ZT: No, Saddam. 1:11:42 EI: They just left? 1:11:43 ZT: What happened right now they, right now we saying we make Iraq united because what happened right now Saddam Hussein lost his control so he moved all his stuff. 1:11:56 EI: State institutions, the people- 1:12:00 ZT: Everything from northern Iraq. 1:12:02 EI: And left you there whatever you do. 1:12:04 ZT: Kurdish people and our own government and this way was so hard because the Kurdish had no resources, they had no money who is going to give you food, even if you have this, how you going to bring it because they have sanction on Iraq. 1:12:18 EI: How you survived that time? 1:12:20 ZT: It was not easy, let us put it this way. Like a pound and a half of sugar like was thirty-forty dinars that time and we could not even buy a kilo we had no job and Iraqi government pretty much put sanction on the Kurds you know with everything until was in 1995, 96 before we come in there was like some oil for food and then situation got a little better but what happened right now we left. 1:13:03 EI: And then 1992 and 1993 when did you, did you continue school there? 1:13:13 ZT: Yeah we went back, after that because we lost a year and something, we went back the thing is because the situation is not the same, now we do not like to go back to school, you lost almost a year and a half of your life, you going to back to the same class you have been before and couple of my cousin they quit school because of going to work so now things got different because what happened right now everybody happy because they do not have much money, food in the house, so this was the situation a little complicated. 1:13:49 EI: Yeah, you were not under the control of government, Iraqi government or Saddam but you were suffering economically and physical condition was bad, okay. So in school the education was there teacher or Kurdish education or something? 1:14:07 ZT: Yes, right now our government the teachers the principals under those circumstances, after those pressures the teachers never stopped their education. 1:14:20 EI: So, education started to be in Kurdish or? 1:14:22 ZT: No, we still had some classes like some we still have because our government had print you know Kurdish books and these things was not easy, because we did not have any what they call it. 1:14:38 EI: It was a transition process. 1:14:39 ZT: So, what happened right now, now we can be free more, we can talk, we can do stuff better than before but you still have some one or two classes in Kurdish, but majority of them was like Arabic classes. But now the teachers you can speak with you in Kurdish, you did not have to be afraid or you did not have to be afraid to speak. 1:15:01 EI: Okay, yeah so in street or in school it was easier. Okay And then you came to the United States in 1997? 1:15:10 ZT: Yeah left at the end of (19)96, we left I think. 1:15:14 EI: The whole family or? 1:15:15 ZT: Yeah, my mum, my dad and brothers and sisters. 1:15:18 EI: Okay, as a refugee? 1:15:19 ZT: Yes, as asylum. What happened right now because the United States government as those, what happened right now because when Kurdish government took control and I think it was in 95, honestly I do not exactly remember but they put no-fly zone around the Kurdish area, wherever the Kurdish control, they put no-fly zone. So that Saddam Hussein cannot bring any planes and after that a lot of organizations came in some working for government, some working for NGOs, so they came in, they helped, they brought like some medicine, food and these things. So, people was- 1:16:19 EI: From Europe or? 1:16:20 ZT: Yes from Europe and all over, so what happened right now some people they were working with them like become their drivers, because if you come in from the United States to Kurdistan you do not know exactly which city, which villages are, who is what, what they need, what were their needs, some become translators, so then, in the end I am not going to make it long, so Saddam Hussein said whoever worked for the United States or work with them not just, because you not going to be a CIA, by the time you become CIA need a lot of background check, but you were working with them become a translator, drivers. But He said whoever did anything work with the United States is not safe. So what happened right now and because the United States they did not have troops over there, they did not have like a base over there, so they got scared because what happened I think was in Vietnam when the United States was helping them some of them people, the local people was helping them so when they left the other government they controlled and killed all those people, so the United States said they not going to make the same mistake we made in Vietnam couple years ago, twenty years ago, forty years ago. So, they said whoever want write your name we going to take you and your kids any place you guys you want. So, this is how- 1:17:49 EI: The United States gave the opportunity and- 1:17:51 ZT: Yes, because what happened right now a lot of ah it is only you know it is tough, nothing is going to happen for so long they wrote down their names, they gave it to any agency you work for- 1:18:03 EI: They did not expect like this. 1:18:05 ZT: Like honestly, me personally and a lot of people, they do not have in their dream one day they going to come to the United States, because we said what, this is what I am saying right now, so far right now that is why we are saying thanks to the United States because they did something not so many countries did it. 1:18:23 EI: And you came here after that? 1:18:24 ZT: No, we went, because they took us at the end of (19)96, I think it was November or October, they took us to Guam. 1:18:31 EI: Where? 1:18:31 ZT: Guam is an island next to Hawaii. 1:18:33 EI: Ah, Okay. 1:18:34 ZT: It is like seven hours from Hawaii, so we went to Guam, the did our physic stuff, you know like they make us I think with a couple of months we stay over there because they- 1:18:44 EI: As camps? 1:18:45 ZT: It was really nice place; let us put it this way, nice. We were living like in house of the navy’s. The island was navy’s house living. Nice houses like they had AC, the best I am telling you, they give good food. 1:19:01 EI: You said you could not imagine it. 1:19:05 ZT: Now if you go there, I guarantee you, you going to spend a thousand of thousand they just have some fun like we had, I am not saying… because whatever they were doing, they were doing the paper for us, doing physical stuff, you know testing, make sure everything is good, you know all the paper… the health, the issue. 1:19:20 EI: Did you get any education for language there? 1:19:22 ZT: They had some classes you know you go over there, they teach you basic stuff, you know, they brought some Kurdish people they knew English in San Francisco a couple of them become working with the United States, they were teaching us how to live our lives what to do, what not to do, what to say, what not to say over here, they were basically basic stuff they were teaching you. 1:19:47 EI: How long, for six months? 1:19:49 ZT: No, I think it was like few months like three, four, five months, yes probably. 1:19:53 EI: Just for integration process. 1:19:56 ZT: Because what happened right now we came to this country as soon as we landed we went to social service, and we went to social security everything was like set, like social security they sent our social security, green card after a year something like that we got our green card, and then everything. 1:20:16 EI: You had the refugee’s status. 1L20:18 ZT: Yes, yeah. 1:20:20 EI: So, and then Binghamton? 1:20:22 ZT: No, we went to Maryland. 1:20:24 EI: Maryland? 1:20:25 ZT: Yeah like close to Washington D.C., because in Guam they give you choices, if you have a relative, a family live anywhere in the United States, if you had contact with them you know, if you know, if he is going to will to help, we going to take you over there but before because my cousin lived in New Jersey because my father when he came lost his number he said we do not want to bother anybody right now, so just go over there and see what happens, so this is why, if you do not give them any choice like say I want to go over there, they will take you some places they know is going to be good for you. 1:21:04 EI: Okay, so you went to Maryland? 1:21:06 ZT: So, a lot of people went to Tennessee, Nashville, some went to California; some went to I think the majority went to Virginia. So, we went to Maryland. 1:21:19 EI: So, what had changed in your life after that? 1:21:22 ZT: a lot of stuff to be honest with you, we saw so many things like you know, you are human right now before when you were living under Saddam Hussein you thought you know we were like somebody just nothing, just here to live to worship like these government, now we know your life is more important than anything else, and over here they treat you really you can be who you are, they give you a big choice like you want to be doing this, you can do this, you can do this, you want to be a businessman, you going to be an educated person, so they give you opportunities. 1:21:59 EI: So, you got your education in college? Which college? 1:22:03 ZT: Yes. Broome Community College. 1:22:05 EI: And you came to Binghamton? 1:22:07 ZT: No, over there because what happened right now I stayed over there for like only a year because we went to high school but because we tried to go to college they told us college is very expensive, we have a couple, my father knows a couple of people over here and said they got contact you know, they say college over here if you become resident tuition you know plus financial aids and these things is going to be cheaper. 1:22:31 EI: Government helped you financially right in that time? 1:22:34 ZT: Over there? 1:22:35 EI: No, here. 1:22:36 ZT: Over here yes. 1:22:38 EI: You cannot find a job like for the first time when you came. So, they- 1:22:43 ZT: Financially they helped us. No, you cannot say enough about this country you know, I am not saying everything is, like I told you nothing is perfect, like I want to be a millionaire for example, but like you cannot say- 1:22:55 EI: But you could survive. 1:22:57 ZT: You cannot say anything enough about this country, they do everything to make you to become somebody who you are not, like to stand up on your feet and open your eyes, like here is the whole world in front of you, what you want to be. That is what I am saying, no, they give you enough, they give you good tools they give you good education, and it is up to you right now who you want to be. 1:23:23 EI: Great, and then you came to Broome community college; you got your degree there? What was your degree? 1:23:29 ZT: In Marketing Management Sale. 1:23:31 EI: Marketing Management? 1:23:32 ZT: Yeah. 1:23:33 EI: Okay, good. 1:23:34 ZT: I studied two years computer and after that because what happened right now I told them I said I want to do another thing and my advisor told me if you want to take this pretty much same classes some of this classes is some of these classes, so you do not have to take as many as credit you need because now math, they needed for C++, they needed for these class, you not take math for business, 1:24:04 EI: Okay, now what is your job, what is your occupation? 1:24:08 ZT: Right now? 1:24:09 EI: Yeah. 1:24:10 ZT: Group leader, working EAT. 1:24:12 EI: What is EAT? 1:24:13 ZT: EAT is Endicott Interconnect Technology, it is like what they call it IBM before it used to be IBM, now is EAT, 1:24:21 EI: So, it is an American company, right? 1:24:24 ZT: Yes. 1:24:24 EI: You are working there? 1:24:25 ZT: Yes. 1:24:25 EI: And how is the job conditions? You are happy with it? 1:24:30 ZT: Like the way you see me, I go to work like this, sometimes, some of my friends what the hell you are doing over here, you became like a CEO… What happened, our job is not dirty, like dirty I mean like dirt or making this thing or is not happy. 1:24:45 EI: You are not working in a construction or building- 1:24:48 ZT: No. 1:24:48 EI: It is like a company. 1:24:50 ZT: It is not like you have to wear some nice jeans, you know some nice T-Shirt so that you have to love some… No, it is not that heavy, and honestly it is easy and I am not saying easy like anybody but you have to get some training but it is good. 1:25:04 EI: So, you are happy with your education and with your family. 1:25:07 ZT: Yes. 1:25:07 EI: You are living here with your three children- 1:25:12 ZT: Alhamdullila… Yes. 1:25:14 EI: Masha Allah, and your wife is she Kurdish? 1:25:17 ZT: Yes. 1:25:17 EI: She is Kurdish, she was living here? 1:25:22 ZT: No, she was back home she is his sister. She was back home. 1:25:28 EI: Your sister right. 1:25:30 ZT: What happened right now when I went over there. 1:25:33 EI: So, you are relatives? 1:25:34 ZT: Yes, he is my cousin, that is why I say when his father was over there, my other uncle was with us. 1:25:40 EI: Did you have any relatives in Kurdistan right now? 1:25:44 ZT: Lots of them. 1:25:45 EI: Lots. [laughs] 1:25:46 ZT: Everybody is over there, that what we saying right now. 1:25:49 EI: Are you going by accident or visit them? 1:25:51 ZT: I was there like in 2005, I hope soon, that is what was asking, Desko made something happen, they send this people so I can go with them. 1:26:00 EI: When was the last time when for your visit? 1:26:03 ZT: 2005. 1:26:04 EI: 2005, so it is great, I want you to compare when you left the country and how you found the country- 1:26:11 ZT: No man it was different, I am not saying. 1:26:14 EI: What was the, like as a citizen not as an… you do not have to be in any identity… for like ordinary people what changed there? 1:26:25 ZT: The thing… life, because now they… what happened people worry about one thing, their business, before you know everybody was unemployed, sitting you know, come sit next to you for like three hours, you go see him for six hours, when I went over there everybody was busy doing something. 1:26:43 EI: Were you surprised when? 1:26:45 ZT: Honestly, I was shocked, how fast things can be changed? You know from people and the web con you know holding AK47 on their shoulder and become technology, computer you know phone I am not saying because our country they do not deserve it, but because we did not have these things. So now everything become available to the Kurdish, look at it right now and I think I heard this that the United States and Europe saying the first nation we see them from a gun to technology change that fast is the Kurdish people, so imagine when I was over there everybody I am telling you, young people had guns holding. 1:27:28 EI: In 1997? 1:27:29 ZT: In (19)95 and (19)96 yes, they had AK47 on their shoulders, even if you are not in military, because gun was everywhere, when I went over there, they could not even sell, you have to have a license, if you not with military they if see you they going to say okay. 1:27:46 EI: So, everything is organized. 1:27:48 ZT: What happened right now they changed so much. 1:27:49 EI: So how about treatment? 1:27:51 ZT: Treatment was better. 1:27:53 EI: When you back there you firstly went to Istanbul or something? 1:27:58 ZT: No, the first I went to Syria. 1:28:00 JT: He is talking about 2000. You are talking about 2005. 1:28:02 ZT: Oh! 2005, yeah, I went to Istanbul. 1:28:06 EI: First you went in 2000 and then in 2005. 1:28:11 ZT: Yes. 1:28:12 EI: Okay. So, there was significant change between 2000 and 2005 as well? 1:28:18 ZT: Because what happened right now like 2000 few people had good job and they were living, still were happy. 1:28:27 EI: Actually, the Kurdistan Region it was officially accepted in 2003, right? 1:28:33 ZT: Yes. So what happened right now still people had jobs and life was better because have more freedom, they can stand up and do something without any other countries because there was still sanctions on Iraqi government and still on Kurdistan and 2000 was like that, and 2005 I went to Istanbul me and my friend, we went to Istanbul, we landed it was really good because we were like when hour in the JFK, for our plane to take off so we went to Istanbul was amazing, I am telling you the country was good the food was good, so we said we do not have that much time so we cannot go outside of the airport, so we had to go from Istanbul airport is like a local go to Diyarbakir. 1:29:18 EI: And then you went to Diyarbakir with plane again? 1:29:23 ZT: Yes, plane because we could take a bus but its 24 hours so it is like a long ride, so we went to from Istanbul to Diyarbakir we checked our things, where you guys going? Diyarbakir. 1:29:34 EI: How was the treatment in Istanbul? 1:29:36 ZT: I mean personally I did not have any problem, like honestly the did not ask me any questions, and they did not tell me what you doing, just I gave them my passport, American passport, they stamped for me, you are good. 1:29:49 EI: You had American passport and you said you are going to Iraq? 1:29:53 ZT: No in Istanbul they even did not ask as, so we went to Diyarbakir, where you guys going- 1:29:57 EI: You got visa for Turkey, right? 1:30:00 ZT: Yes, Turkey yes. So what happened right now in Diyarbakir when we landed because the airport was small, so we took our packs and there were cabs over there, cab driver you know? 1:30:10 EI: Actually, in Diyarbakir it is not a civil airport as far as I know. Is it army? 1:30:15 ZT: Diyarbakir when we went over there was like tanks pretty much a lot of places you know like militaries because- 1:30:21 EI: Because it is not a civilian airport. 1:30:23 ZT: Still what happened right now they were saying PKK comes and they attacks sometimes but they did not ask us anything because they know we are visitors, I am not going to talk about the Kurdish Turkey to see because what happened right now we were there and a couple of drivers over there and we told them, they said the situation is getting a little better because now some of them they get visa, they can cross borders, they make some money for their families you know before they did not have that either, so it was hard. 1:30:52 EI: So, you went to Diyarbakir and then Kurdistan. 1:30:54 ZT: Diyarbakir and then we get a cab driver, because we asked them who have a visa, because some they do not have a visa, they could not cross the border, because they have to be in Turkish side. So, one of them said okay we can take you guys, so we went to the last one that is still that time between the Kurdish government and the Turkish government was not that strong connection like today in a business and everything. 1:31:17 EI: Yes, today is after 2009 I think it is better. 1:31:20 ZT: The driver told us and we knew, he said they ask you guys where you going, say we going to go to Iraq, but if you guys say Kurdistan and you know sometimes that word is going to interfere you know, they are not going to probably like it, but right now if you go right now; I am going to go to Kurdistan, so it is not going to hurt them that much, so situation is become so different like technology, like I am telling you friendship Turkey right now doing business with the Kurd, Kurd doing business with the Turk you know they doing with Iran, so if you go right now like if you have pictures like in 10 years ago, fifteen years ago as a people and you see have the same picture of that person like right now. 1:31:59 EI: So how do you feel? 1:32:00 ZT: Really great. Like this is why I said I am proud to say I am a Kurd, because like I told you if I live like in a country I am not going to mention any countries because every country people love their own countries but if live in Africa or wherever country you live in, if you have a bad reputation in United Nation like your country as corruption, killings and these things, you going to be like oh! man did I said this, but you will be happy and you will be proud if your country is doing good. 1:32:31 EI: Yeah, when you walking in the street for example in Duhok, what was your feeling because you remember your childhood, you remember bad stories, so memories, what were your feelings? 1:32:45 ZT: The feelings, I was telling my couple of cousins with me like sometimes I think like was one o’clock we were going to… we drove the car, his father’s car- 1:32:56 EI: 1am? 1:32:57 ZT: 1am something like that with his brother, we took his father’s car and I did not how to drive shift I said listen bear with me, so we drove we went like one o’clock, two o’clock I said listen, look right now, ten-fifteen years ago situation was so much different, right now you can go over there, stores. 1:33:14 EI: You can drive during the night. 1:33:16 ZT: A coffee, a cake, one o’clock in the afternoon, and Christian are free, they can do whatever they want, they have their own stores, do you have this, nobody come to you saying why you have this, why driving in this time, they do not have checkpoints like in the cities, I remember like in Saddam Hussein’s time if you travel in the night, there was like so many checkpoints at night; one in this town, one in this area, one in this sport, you could not even believe it, now, but they only have one checkpoint you know in that side because so many, they want to that bad people to come in like terrorist and these things, otherwise there is no checkpoints from here to go all the way to Erbil it is like probably there is another checkpoint. So, it is really great because you feel like you are somebody, you are human; you live in a country they care about you. 1:34:14 EI: So, as I understand you are happy living in the United States and being Kurdistan citizen. 1:34:21 ZT: Yes. See that is why I am saying our country is good, our government, they accept doors to citizenship, some countries they do not accept it. 1:34:25 EI: Yeah, you have dual citizenship? 1:34:27 ZT: Yes. Because we are Kurd, we are from Iraq and you are Turk, I mean you are from the United States so what happened right now we have still- 1:34:39 EI: You have Iraqi passport or Kurdistan? 1:34:41 ZT: No, what I am saying right now the Kurdish people accepted, like for example right now if my friend is from India says as soon as I become US citizen, I have to give up all my things. 1:34:52 EI: In India? 1:34:53 ZT: In India. So, the Kurdish people accepted like you can have the ID, right now something you know when we go over there. 1:35:00 EI: You can have both IDs, right? It is not a problem. 1:35:04 ZT: Yes, no. 1:35:04 EI: Iraqi or Kurdistan. 1:35:0 ZT: No, right now when we go over there. 1:35:07 JT: Both is the same. 1:35:07 ZT: Yeah when we go over there right now something because what happened right now we can, I give them my drier license, sometimes I can give them my Iraqi ID like the Kurdish, they going to look at it, my name, my picture. They are not going to say oh! - 1:35:19 EI: If you back to Kurdistan, you will not have any problem like as a citizen you have all rights? 1:35:26 ZT: No. 1:35:26 EI: Okay. DO you want to go back one day or, do you miss something? 1:35:29 ZT: I hope. I am not saying because I do not like this country honestly, but because we want to help them, you know we want them, we want the country to become somebody like some rest of the countries like you know we can get the visa, if you want to visit like Turkish you know, like Gulf countries, like European, they have their own citizenship, they come in, they visit you know, they visit their relatives, they come for business, for pleasure whatever they come for, two weeks later they go back, so we want our country become like same like this because if you become economically good condition and everything become better hopefully tomorrow the Kurdish citizenship you know Kurdish if you have passport, you can travel anywhere you want. 1:36:14 EI: One day you will go back. 1:36:16 ZT: Hopefully that is what I am saying right now because everything is like t the modern time if you like become models and if you become like stable in business what other countries want? Business, so when you go travel right now anywhere you want, like if you go to Turkey, if Istanbul is probably say number one in Europe tourism like people go to there, why because they treat you like really good, if they treat you like in the airport like in bad reputation they give you attitudes, if you go to this town, if you go to this restaurant they treat you say oh! you are from this, you know this, are you going to go back again? 1:36:50 EI: No. 1:36:50 ZT: No. So that is why my couple of cousins they go over there, they love it, why? Not because they love it because beaches all over there, or the trees or big mountains or big house or tall buildings, no-no. the treatment like the people treat you, they go wo a restaurant, they treat you good, nice, they do not say oh you are from this part, then they going to give you shish kebab, they going to give you this. 1:37:16 EI: So, they are welcome to tourists. 1:37:18 ZT: Yes, that is what I am saying, so Istanbul became so powerful economically. That is why the Kurdish people trying to establish good environment. 1:37:28 EI: Okay. How old is your children? 1:37:32 ZT: Five, I think my daughter is going to be close to three, and my youngest son is like two and a half months. 1:37:40 EI: Two sons and one daughter? 1:37:44 ZT: Yes. 1:37:44 EI: Okay, great. So, they will grow up here. 1:37:46 ZT: They are citizens, this is why I say to them I say now, see this is why I say about this country is great, they could be president tomorrow, for example I am not saying they going to be citizen I mean president but the thing is right now in this country. 1:38:00 EI: They were born in America. 1:38:03 ZT: Yes, what happened right now in this country if you, right now is changed because you have to have so much money fund for this but in other stuff they do not stop you to become somebody like they do not stop you, your education has to be stopped right here or your business cannot be going further or your this has to be stopped, so you have opportunities that is why this country became great because they came all over and they are open, so you open a restaurant… 1:38:35 EI: So, you are like in daily life you do not have any problem, right? 1:38:38 ZT: No. 1:38:38 EI: Right as an American citizen you have all rights. 1:38:41 ZT: You have every right and you can do so many things the other American cannot do it. 1:38:47 EI: I mean because of your identity there is no problem, because you are Muslim identity or Kurdish identity? 1:38:53 ZT: No, see that is why I say this country is- 1:38:54 EI: For example, in your job or something. 1:38:55 ZT: No, that is why I say this country is different because and they know it I am Muslim because I leave Fridays, I told my boss I said I am going to go to my Friday hour… They give you an hour. 1:39:04 EI: So, you still practice your religion and your culture- 1:39:09 ZT: Yes, pray, fasting- 1:39:10 EI: So, yes, I learn about that as well, like your cultural life here. You still have Kurdish community in Binghamton and there are lots of families so you have relation with them, what is your relation and do you have any special day or celebration or visit or something? 1:39:27 ZT: Yes, celebration is there, like Newroz hopefully we going to invite you too, hopefully we going to make Newroz, we are hoping to make Newroz and you know we going to have Halabja and other celebration like Eid we go, I think two years ago, two-three years ago on the Eid we went to a part after- 1:39:57 EI: To picnic or something? 1:39:58 ZT: Picnic, you know what happen after pray, Eid Pray? We say you know each person bring and share… pretty much most of them came, majority of them, I think two-three family one of them they had sick in their family but- 1:40:07 EI: Not just men, the women children. 1:40:10 ZT: Everybody, so we said if each person brings and share desserts and food bring cookies too you know whatever you going to bring and each have tables we went to the Cole Part, and until now everybody says that was the best Eid ever, because everybody saw each other in five minutes… 1:40:29 EI: I mean still have relation and close relation visiting each other. 1:40:32 ZT: Yes, we have everything. 1:40:33 EI: Okay. Great! I mean if someone is sick you know about it or- 1:40:36 ZT: Right now if one of our friend is sick, he would visit him every day, but he stand couple nights with him, my brother stay couple night with him, other people like friends staying couple nights, the other… because what happened right now if he stays every day say a month or twenty day, he is going to be tired, he is going to be emotionally, physically he is going to be waaaaa, he is going to crazy, if he stays only two days, I am going to stay the other two days, things are going to be easier around everybody. So, the Kurdish community is really good for such kind of stuff because they do not say Oh he is from this tribe or he is from this part, he is from there. 1:41:19 EI: Yeah, when you come to the United States you are all Kurds not your local tribes because- 1:41:25 ZT: So, they help each other a lot, they do whatever they can do to make their life easier. 1:41:34 EI: Did all the second generation, did they all get their education, college education or something? 1:41:39 ZT: Not all of them, most of them are getting, some of them are still in colleges, some of them are not… what happened right now that is because before us, because it was like other group was here of Kurdish people, some of them came like in (19)92, (19)93- 1:41:58 EI: Just after the uprising. 1:42:00 ZT: After the uprising, so what happened right now the education level was not that high. 1:42:08 EI: For the first generation? 1:42:10 ZT: For the first generation, what happened right now say for example my father even he did not go to school but education on his head is a top priority over everything, not because you want to be educated so I can. 1:42:22 EI: I mean with education I do not mean the knowledge or culture or something but diploma, I mean for example you got your Diploma and you can study in American company, so I mean that- 1:42:36 ZT: No, some of them are getting it right now, a lot of them are still in Broome community college, they got I think, I do not know how many students we have in Broome Community College, we have quite a few people. 1:42:48 JT: Thirty-five students in BCC and couple people in BU. 1:42:55 EI: Okay, great. Thank you so much. 1:42:57 ZT: Oh, no thank you. I appreciate- 1:43:00 EI: If you want to add something and in general. 1:43:03 ZT: I said everything, hopefully they going to be happy with this. [laughs] 1:43:06 EI: Yeah, it is mostly one hour and forty-five minutes. 1:43:10 ZT: Wow, I thought maybe it is going to be twenty minutes. No, it was good. 1:43:22 EI: [laughs] It was a good conversation, thank you so much. 1:43:24 ZT: Like a couple of my friends saying why we are not going to make the whole thing at once, I said listen because if everybody speak- 1:43:29 EI: It is personal story and the will get the common things. 1:43:30 ZT: No, no, no I said it is for your time too, imagine if have like six more people now, an hour for me. 1:43:33 EI: I think I will then be more tired than… [laughs]. Okay, thank you so much. 1:43:35 ZT: Thank you. 1:43:36 JT: -you your best of luck. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Zeki Taha Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e2a5c7bb63aef596fcf78e460cb8478e.mp3 defdc13b7bc49712723378ad1cd40687 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource <p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p> <p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library &amp; Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Date of Interview 25 May 2013 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Zhiman Zebari Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 65:31 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Zhiman was born and raised in the city of Duhok along with 13 of her siblings. Unfortunately, her family lost two children, one during the 1991 Gulf War and another during the 2003 Iraqi war. At the age of 11, Zhiman fled Iraqi Kurdistan for the United States with her family. She currently resides in Syracuse, NY with her family and holds a master's degree in Nursing. Keywords Kurdistan; Gulf War; Turkey; Guam; Refugee; Kurdish Culture; Muslim; Kurdish celebrations; Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Zhiman Zebari Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 25 May 2013 Interview Setting: Interviewee’s home, Endicott, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 AD: Okay, all right. Zhiman, why do not you just, let us take your full name. 0:15 ZZ: Zhiman Ni’ma Zebari. 0:17 AD: Okay, so just tell us: Where were you born, and we will go from there. 0:26 ZZ: I was born in Duhok Kurdistan in 1985. 0:28 AD: Okay, so how many siblings do you have? 0:30 ZZ: My mom originally had fourteen kids. Two of them passed away. So, I only have twelve now. But I am one of eight girls and we had six brothers but now there is five. 0:48 AD: Okay, so the two died. Why have they died? 0:53 ZZ: What happened the little girl at the age of one and a half in 1991 she died during the gulf war when the Kurds escaped, when a lot of the Kurds escaped their villages to go the mountains because of the Baath party. Saddam’s Baath party came and invaded the cities, and it was cold and raining and the child did not make it through. 1:18 AD: I see. And the other? 1:20 ZZ: The other one he was old; he was 28 years old. This was a lot after we had been in America, he wanted to go back to Iraq to be a translator during the 2003-2004 war in Iraq. He was a translator there when him and fellow American colleagues killed during combat. 1:40 AD: Oh, wow, so he died in Iraq? 1:43 ZZ: He died in Fallouja Iraq. This was 2004. 1:45 AD: Oh my God, 2004. 1:49 ZZ: He was the oldest sibling. 1:51 AD: The oldest one. How unfortunate! So, you were born in Duhok and how long did you live there. 2:03 ZZ: I lived there till the age of eleven. But that was in 1996 and then we moved here. After Saddam Hussein found out about the organization that my dad was working with, which was a non-profit organization that was basically trying to renovate the destructed cities in Kurdistan after the gulf war ended. When Saddam Hussein found out about these organizations, he immediately said he is going to eliminate all these people and their families. Somehow the directory got out to him, and we were no longer safe. And since we were part of the non-government organization, we had to escape and go to the western countries which was the United States of America. So, we had to leave our country as a result. 2:58 AD: So, is your father still alive? 3:00 ZZ: Yes. 3:00 AD: He is here? 3:01 ZZ: Yes. 3:02 AD: So, let me ask you this. You lived in Duhok the whole time, in the city? 3:10 ZZ: In the city. 3:11 AD: So, you were not like in the outskirts of the city? 3:12 ZZ: I mean my parents grew up in outskirts, but I grew up in the Duhok city. 3:20 AD: How is your living? Did you have a house? Apartment? 3:25 ZZ: We had a house- 3:27 AD: A garden and everything? 3:29 ZZ: Pretty much, a house with multiple rooms and a little garden we had fruit trees in there. It was not the biggest house, but it was decent for us where we could all live in the same place. 3:43 AD: I see. So obviously your mother did not work, taking care of fourteen kids. Right? 3:46 ZZ: No, she did not. 3:50 AD: So, you guys when to school? 3:53 ZZ: We did yeah. When we left, I was still in middle school- elementary/middle school. So, I was very less educated than my other siblings. 4:04 AD: I see, so all of your other siblings when you look at them, did they all get education while in Duhok? 4:15 ZZ: Absolutely. My parents made sure that no matter what the circumstances were the kids will not leave school and go to work, because it was hard having family, big family when my dad was the only source of income, but they made sure that none of the kids dropout of school to go and work. They made sure that we were stayed in school and did what was important to us. 4:37 AD: So, what language did you guys speak. 4:41 ZZ: I was learning up I was, the stage that I was in it was all in Arabic and a little bit of Kurdish. 4:49 AD: So, your first language was Arabic. 4:51 ZZ: Well, I mean I did not know what I was starting the alphabet, I was only in fifth grade. I was starting to pick it up but throughout the years like from first grade we were always taught the names of Arabic like door. But we also we would have taught in Kurdish but it was not allowed, we had to learn it in Arabic too. My sister who is a year and a half younger than me, their class was Kurdish. They were learning in Kurdish. While I was still in the phase of it was mainly taught in Arabic. 5:31 AD: I see. So, how about your parents. Do they speak Arabic? 5:36 ZZ: My dad speaks Arabic yeah. 5:38 AD: Fluent? 5:39 ZZ: Very fluent. But my mom does not she only speaks Kurdish. 5:45 AD: Because she did not work and- 5:46 ZZ: She did not go to school. 5:48 AD: Oh, she did not go to school? But how about your father? 5:49 ZZ: He dropped out of school like at the six grade I think, he was, he had to take care of family matters. He had to work. I mean circumstances were different for him. He did not have a choice. He either had to quit school or go help his dad out with the other business they had at that time, and school was not an option for him at that time. 6:14 AD: So, tell me about Duhok, like what do you remember? 6:19 ZZ: I remember stores, I remember schools I remember like a lot of streets with houses. Very little trees very, a lot of destructive areas underserved areas, I remember some garden, some places where people who rented a place they would go and make little gardens, my childhood was basically spent on street playing with rocks, you know very little toys. You know we went wild with our imaginations, like water hoses and stuff like that. 7:02 AD: Oh yeah. So, where you lived where there like Arabs, Iraqis? 7:10 ZZ: No, there were not. 7:12 AD: Just Kurdish people lived? 7:14 ZZ: Just Kurdish people lived. I know near by the neighborhood, I know some Kurdish family that were from Iraq regions like Mosul but knew Arabic, preferred Arabic language because they grew up with that language whereas we mainly did not associate with them as much because we could not communicate together. So, I remember having difficulty with these kids, like they were the outsiders, and we were the cool kids. 7:47 AD: I see. So, that is interesting because like you did not have to, growing up you did not have any Arab friends. 7:59 ZZ: No, not really. 8:01 AD: But at school? 8:03 ZZ: But at school we were taught in Arabic. 8:06 AD: No, the school you went, were there other Arab kids? 8:10 ZZ: No, not really. 8:12 AD: No? it was just for Kurdish kids? 8:13 ZZ: Kurdish kids yeah. 8:14 AD: Hmm. So, it is like heavily populated Kurdish population. 8:19 ZZ: And mainly Badini Kurds, Behdini. 8:24 AD: What is that? 8:26 ZZ: There is Sorani, there is Badini-kirmanji, it was mainly Badinis. So, we all know the same dialect of Kurdish. 8:32 AD: So, you speak Badini, not kirmanji. 8:34 ZZ: Not Kirmanji. 8:35 AD: Really? I though you speak in Kirmanji? 8:38 ZZ: No, I speak Badini. 8:40 AD: Oh, Erdem only knows Kirmanji. 8:43 ZZ: That is okay my sister will translate. 8:47 AD: Oh my God, I wish then I would interview with your mother. Okay that is alright. We are killing two birds with one stone. I did not know that. Karwan never told me I thought Karwan spoke Kirmanji. 9:03 ZZ: He may know words and stuff like that. 9:06 AD: Like you know Marwan? Marwan worked with me. So, his first language is not Kirmanji, what is it? 9:18 ZZ: Badini? 9:19 AD: No. 9:19 ZZ: Sorani. 9:20 AD: Sorani. And then his wife’s first language is Kirmanji but Snur you know her? 9:30 ZZ: I do know Snur. 9:32 AD: Yeah, so that is interesting. Oh, I did not know. 9:36 ZZ: There are multiple Kurdish dialects, but I know four. 9:40 AD: I think Kirmanji is like widely spoken dialect. And I know in Turkey there is like Zazai Kurdish. I think Zazas only live in Turkey. I do not think they live in anywhere else. 9:57 ZZ: You know honestly the four major dialects of Kurdish like Sorani, Kirmanji, Zazaki and Badini, they are very similar they have just, it is like you know people in northers US talk differently than people in the south. 10:13 AD: It is that much different. 10:15 ZZ: It is a lot more different, but it is understandable. 10:18 AD: Grammar is the same, like the sentence structure. 10:21 ZZ: There are different words, the lettering is pretty much the same. Like the alphabet, but there are different names for different things. But it is not hard to know them all. 10:34 AD: But like grammatically, is the same? 10:36 ZZ: Pretty much. 10:37 AD: I understand maybe you use different word to describe sky than Kirmanji people. That happens in Turkey. Northern people have different words to describe different things, okay I see. So, do you remember any of the like commotions or upheavals? Or poor man tortures going on? 11:14 ZZ: I do. I remember there were night we would just hear gunfire in a distant all night, and we would go to the ceiling just to see, the sky would be lit with gunfire and noises and stuff like that, and we would just watch from a distant from our home, and you know there was war there was fighting going on from a distant. When we would hear this constantly, we would here explosions. A lot of time during school time we would the alarm goes off. The whole city was basically on attack mode. We would get under our desks. We would be put into basement, or we would have to be sent home mainly, because the risk of explosions and attacks was very high. That is the commotions that I do remember. I remember many times when we were at home during the night times when you would here the fighting, we would be ready in our coats and stuff and packed and just run away. Any minute now we did not know when we were safe, or we had to run away or when it was a good time? There was a lot of that. I remember a lot of our nights were scary. The nights were very scary. 12:32 AD: Did you have to leave your home and go somewhere else because of the danger? 12:38 ZZ: Yes. I had relatives in a little nearby village where, village where sometimes a lot safer than the city because a lot of time the attacks were done in cities. So, we had distant relatives in a village we would go sometimes for a month or forty days or something just until we know that the city is clear again to come back or safe again. 13:03 AD: Wow. So, and did you experience any like any lose, like a relative, or someone in your family dies over an attack or something? 13:19 ZZ: Not my immediate family but I know distant family members there were instances where they would just disappear, and we never know what happened to them. lot of times in our neighborhood someone’s spouse never come back from work or people would just disappear. 13:40 AD: Leslie, jump in if you have any questions, okay? So, some other interviews told us like they literally spent a lot of time in mountains. Did you have that too? 14:02 ZZ: The one time that I spent a lot of time in mountain was the war of Gulf war in 1990. When we actually left our homes in Early spring and did not come back until later in June where we spent a lot of winter months, actually it was late winter or early spring or summer where we spent a lot of time in mountains, it was raining a lot. It was cold. 14:29 AD: So, where did you live in mountains? 14:32 ZZ: I am not sure about the area I was only five years old. 14:35 AD: No, what do you remember? What was the setting right? 14:39 ZZ: There were times, there were like just hills and hills of tents. I do remember walking when we were trying to leave that there were dead bodies all of over the ground, the mud was, because there was so many people walking in the mud, the whole ground it was not like concrete, anything and it became muddy, and people were getting stuck in the mud. And I remember each step took all the effort in you to go to the next step. People where hungry, they were starving, they were thirsty, they were sick. There was cold, they were dead, the cold was wet there was no protection. There was no safety. I do remember people just slumping over and that was it, they were dead, and people were just, some men would just drag them to the side of the road or something. And I do remember this one specific bridge which crossed over a river, and it was very steep like only one or two people at a time that could go on the bridge. And there were lines and lines of people waiting to cross that bridge. It was very scary and I remember being, at a point on this time I got lost from my family and I got stuck in the mud, and I saw one of my distant relatives currently my brother-in-law’s mom, she was screaming behind me, she was stuck in the mud and she just laugh all out screaming and I was a five year old with a backpack on my back and I am trying to help her. That is one of the things that I had a nightmare about a lot. And I do remember just looking around and just seeing masses of people just dead around us. I remember people screaming, crying, my mom like screaming because she thought she lost her kid. I remember her on Kurdish clothes the two lawindis, she had tied her two of her kids with her lawindis and she had a fifteen-day old baby she was holding. She had just my sister Bizhyan. And I remember my dad carrying my grandma on his back because she was crippled. It was just, there was no safety, it was just completely chaos. It was each person on their own, baby or older or young. It was like no one was safe. 17:08 AD: So, you were hungry a lot. 17:11 ZZ: The thing is my mom and my dad had so many kids, at that time we were all so young I was only five years old at that time, and there was at least four younger ones younger than me, the youngest being fifteen days old. And there were probably six or more older than me, this was probably like fourteen at that time. So my parents had all these young kids plus my grandma who was crippled and every time we caught up to other relatives who had less kids who were more independent, they had already cooked something quick at a rest area, like a little quick area they would stop rest and cook something, by the time we caught up to them, it was already we had to go again. So, we never really had time to stop have our parents cook something for us or change our cloths we were always just keep going just keep going. And I think for like ten or fifteen days we were always just going always just going in the rain and the cold and starving all the time, hungry cold and just tired. 18:26 AD: Yeah, so but when you reached the tent area did you guys have any food. 18:33 ZZ: That is when the aid came. Basically, I think it was UN, they came, and they dropped, they would drop heavy loads of food and a lot of time people would rush to these to catch them and they were huge, and they would fall on people. They would probably be as big as this room, and they would fall on people and crush them and kill them. It was just so bad. Ye and then people would just fight over these, it was whatever it was that they were providing with us basically, like bags of stuff that you could have, and my uncle, my dad, my uncles other relatives they would go, the men mainly they would go and they would try and bring stuff for us. And that is when my mom and grandma they would cook stuff for us, and we would have a little tent which basically inside the tent was all mud anyways, and we would just be lying and sleeping and sitting in these muddy tents. And I do remember at this time I know one late afternoon it was around the time that the sun would go down, my mom had just placed my one and a half year old sister down for, she was getting close to death, she was dying, she had just laid her down to go to sleep and I was sitting outside the tent my mom left to go and prepare something or get some stuff ready, when she came back to check on my sister that is when she screamed because the baby had died. 20:10 AD: Oh, wow! Yeah, that is so sad. You know it is just so hard to imagine. So, this happened during the gulf war? 20:23 ZZ: Uh-huh 20:23 AD: Did you also, I remember Ridwan and Jotiyar mentioned like camps in Turkey, did you end up going to? 20:35 ZZ: No, we did not to camps of tents in Turkey. 20:38 AD: Or in Iran like after the war he said some people walked for days- 20:44 ZZ: A lot of people went to Turkey; a lot of people went to Iran. I do not know specifically where they went. 20:49 AD: So, you did not go there? 20:51 ZZ: I think we went to one of the borders in Turkey, but we never crossed over to the actual Turkey. 20:58 AD: Like a refugee camp or something? 21:01 ZZ: We did end up going there. There is more safety there, there is medical health there, there was, we stayed, I think that was like the best time of that whole year, there was water, there was not as cold and rainy anymore, it was starting to dry, the air was dry. People were starting to gather their families more. I do remember a period like that it is very rare how much I remember about that time, because it was not as horrific as the days before but I do remember some safety there, I know there was water, I remember drinking a cup of water and just realizing the thirst that I had for so long. 21:42 AD: Oh yeah. So of course, I am not even asking hygiene. 21:44 ZZ: No, there was no such a thing. 21:47 AD: There was no hygiene, right? 21:50 ZZ: We did have water I remember like vague memories of us playing with a hot water hose and just like watering ourselves down just for fun. I was the only hygiene I can think of. 22:02 AD: You can think of, yeah. So, after that, after the Gulf war then you went back to your home in Duhok? 22:14 ZZ: Yes. 22:15 AD: So, how was life after that? 22:18 ZZ: It was, if I have to compare it to a historical even, based on what I have learned about in the history of America, is that the Great Depression of America, the nineties twenties and nineties thirties. People’s homes were all destroyed. There were holes. Like gun holes or bullet holes, there were people’s house were robed. Everything was gone. We were robbed of a livelihood of anything we had. Everything was just gone. There were like, like I just said there were bullet holes in walls and the schools were all in complete chaos the people were just they did not know. They did not know what this meant. there was no food, there was no work, nobody had any money left, it was just nothing and then started to pick up the pieces one day at a time, one step at a time and that is, it took people a long time to find jobs to find money again to find source of livelihood. Ways of feeding the family became impossible. Like people started selling things they had no intention of selling. They would sell their houses so they could their babies. I know my sister’s only fifteen days old which probably would have been a two- or three-month’s old baby now, my parents had to sell everything they had just to provide like a sixteen-ounce bottle powder milk. That like a bottle of powder milk was costing hundred and fifty dollars for them which they did not have. So, each child was, I mean you had to literally, they started… kids starving to death. A lot of people did not make it or mentally, after that. 24:15 AD: You lived there a couple of years. 24:20 ZZ: Yes, we lived there until 1996 and then we moved. 24:29 AD: This is like really said I cannot even imagine it is just really- 24:3I ZZ: it is unimaginable. 24:38 AD: It is, but like probably after the Gulf War when went back to Duhok. I mean probably you will remember better, so how was like life. Like everyday life? You know like everyday life, you were getting up in the morning, you know get ready for school. Something like that, how was it? 25:02 ZZ: It was starting to get like your normal routine life. It was a little people were slowly to pick the pieces. The trauma that they had experienced it made it harder for them to move on. Like I said they was nothing left in the city. There were no resources coming in. If they were, everyone was fighting for this little bit of source. 25:30 AD: But was not that, UN was still helping right? 25:35 ZZ: It was still helping yes, but it was not enough, people were in that fear of a I must hold it and they will have that time again where my kids are going to starve to death, so there was a lot of hoarding around, and what little you had, sometimes we would go without dinner, we would just starving and they would put us to bed because there was nothing to feed us. You have to cry yourself to sleep. 25:59 AD: Oh my God. 26:00 ZZ: There were moments like that were we just, your parents looked at you and there is nothing to feed you. And they will put you in bed and like probably tomorrow would be a different story. You know we will have food tomorrow. Or whatever the food that we did eat was so blend there was no taste of them. People got sick of eating the same blend diet. 26:23 AD: What you were eating the most? 26:27 ZZ: I do not know if you what Savar is, it is like cuscus. Little dark grain, there was a lot of that I remember, there was, people who had flour or could purchase flour they would make bread like home-made bread. There was mainly that and like. 26:46 AD: So probably that have some protein- 26:49 ZZ: It did, yes it did. 26:51 AD: So then bread and that… 26:53 ZZ: meats and chicken and others they were just rare. Very little may be once a year like a Eids holiday or something like that. Even then it was like you had to spend most of your family’s fortune to buy a meal like that. 27:12 AD: wow, so were you still like celebrating like Eids? 27:20 ZZ: Yeah, I do not remember those specific days because they were just like very not as much as fun as they were before, there was more of a, because we were so young. 27:31 AD: but it was better before the Gulf War? 27:33 ZZ: Yes, absolutely it was. Before we would be doing the Eid, the kids would get candy, they would have nuuql, they would have- 27:52 AD: You had that going on before- 27:55 ZZ: Yeah, after this, there were no money to buy nuuqles, there were no money to buy candy, we had nothing that we used to have before. 28:02 AD: So, the war made things like really worse for you to continue. 28:06 ZZ: Absolutely. 28:07 AD: Okay. So, after the war did you have more like fighting or things going on? 28:11 ZZ: I do remember the adult fighting a lot, arguing a lot. 28:15 AD: but not like war, it was not never like a war zone again. 28:20 ZZ: No, I mean there were, there were unsafe because the Baath party was still around. People were very scared of who could they trust from now on. It was like, each person to their own at this point on. Each person was just barely hanging on. People became very mistrust; I mean they could not trust each other anymore. Families fell apart. Neighbors fell apart. But, yeah it, people started to move on slowly, but the progress took a long time, I would say at least the first three to four years even up to the point where nineteen ninety six when we left, we were so poor, we were still eating that blend diet, we sometimes may not had dinner. There was just blend and the cuscus, savar. 29:08 AD: So how about the people around you? What were they thinking, you know like they wished that war never took place? 29:18 ZZ: I do not know about that I was too young to go onto politics at that time. I did not know, 29:21 AD: Not politics, like for the conditions, 29:26 ZZ: I still do not remember. 29:28 AD: What do you think today? Do you think that was better for Kurds? 29:33 ZZ: No, that war took everything from them. They had worked so hard and to get where they were and all the sudden it was like the foundation was just taken off underneath them. 29:50 AD: Really? Oh wow 29:51 AD: Oh, maybe I should ask some question to your mom, but that is okay, alright but we are not done yet, we are still in Kurdistan. Yeah, we have not even made it to United States [laughs] 30:00 Someone: Do you want me to get Erdem here? 30:02 AD: Uh, Yeah, he can come if he wants. So, but, oh my God, so that is what you think, but today now you have now more freedom in Kurdistan. 30:27 ZZ: Today is fine, yeah there is like- 30:30 AD: [crosstalk] go through that torment and torture. 30:35 ZZ: The whole world did not lead the Kurds to where who they are today. It was fall of Saddam Hussein that led they Kurds to where they are today. It was after he was gone that the Kurds. 30:54 AD: After the second Gulf war basically. 30:57 ZZ: After the second Gulf war yeah. It was 2003 when the fall of Saddam Hussein that the Kurds finally, the Kurds of Iraq at least that got their freedom back and they got to explore opportunities and become more educated. Food was not a big thing on their mind anymore basically. They basic necessities were not the first priorities anymore. 31:27 AD: So, then you told us why you guys you came to United States. So, let us see how things started to change, like where did you arrive? 31:52 LC: I have a question for her. 31:54 AD: Okay go ahead. 31:55 LC: So, the job that your dad had caused you to come to the United States? Did he have that before the first Gulf war? 32:03 ZZ: No, he did not. 32:05 LC: When he got that job? 32:07 ZZ: He got that I think two years, three years after the Gulf war. 32:22 LC: What he was doing prior to Gulf war? 32:26 ZZ: I do not know. [getting the answer from her mother in Kurdish]. He was a truck driver at some place called Ashghal. 32:41 AD: Okay, so he was working as a truck driver and the war happened. So, I am going to ask some. I do not know what you have asked but maybe we can ask your mother about- I know I hate to bring you back to those days. 32:58 ZZ: No, it is fine. 33:00 AD: Okay. So, could your ask your mother like how she felt about like during the gulf war when you guys went up to mountains or like the border city in Turkey, what was her experience like what she remembers about that? 33:34 ZZ: [translating the question to her mother] She says she was telling him. 33:40 AD: All right, good. But I am going to ask something that I ask you. How did she think her life before the gulf war? 33:57 ZZ: [translating the question to her mother.] She says it was good, life was good we were in the Duhok city. [Speaking Kurdish] She said everything was fine before then till we had to run away. 34:21 AD: So, same feelings you had. 34:23 ZZ: Pretty much. 34:24 AD: Yeah. Okay let us go back to where did you arrive in the United States? 34:30 ZZ: We had to stay- after we left Duhok, we had to go to the Turkey border for one night. We were supposed to stay for one night and fly out. However, she was pregnant, she ended up going to labor that night. 34:45 AD: Wow. Who was born? 34:48 ZZ: My youngest brother who is sixteen years old today. He was born on the border of Turkey in the city of Botan I guess, because we named him Botan. 35:19 EI: Botan 35:19 ZZ: Jazira u Botan. 35:19 Halima Zebari: We named him after the city’s name [in Kurdish] 35:20 AD: Shernak. 35:20 Halima Zebari: Botan was born in Serbinye. [in Kurdish]. 35:21 ZZ: Yes, Serbinye I guess. 35:21 AD: Serbine? 35:21 Halima Zebari: Yes Serbinye. [in Kurdish]. 35:22 AD: That is the name of the town? 35:23 EI: What was the name Xatin [madam]? [asking Halima Zebari in Kurdish.] 35:24 Halima Zebari: Botan. 35:24 EI: In Serbin? 35:24 Halima Zebari: What does he say? 35:25 ZZ: Where is Serbiney? Asking her mother in Kurdish. 35:27 Halima Zebari: Serbine is the first Jazeera [island- not actual island, just name], after that the Slopey city comes, then the Jazera then Serbine. [in Kurdish] 35:30 ZZ: I guess there is Slopey, there is Jazeera Botan and then there is Serbin. 35:34 AD: I see. It is like a smaller town probably, but I guess it is closer to Şırnak, everybody knows Şırnak. 35:42 ZZ: It is not far from the border between Turkey and Kurdistan. 35:48 AD: I see. 35:50 ZZ: But that is when what happened. So, then we had to stay another night. Because she was in the hospital. 35:57 AD: So, she was in the hospital where were you guys? 36:00 ZZ: We stayed in a very muddy campsite with tents that was setup for us. 36:05 AD: I see. 36:06 ZZ: Like again it felt like we were back in the whole Gulf war. It was muddy. They were just throwing food at us, and this is us trying leave for safety. Anyways, that night left the following day they came picked my family. My mom was in the hospital we had no idea what happened. They just took her. We stayed in this tent overnight. In the morning they came – they usually would come bring buses and take people, take them to the airport. They took us to the city of Turkey where we stayed in a hotel for one more night, so she was safe to go. So, we stayed in Turkey, one more night and then the following day we got in an airplane, and we landed in Guam. 36:46 AD: So, you went to Guam first? 36:48 ZZ: Yes. We had to be cleared before we could come to the states. They put us in a military base, mainly for whatever did they needed the bases. So, we had to stay there for four months until they could find someone that could sponsor us here in the states. Until they could find residency for us. Until we could get immunizations and clearance and our paperwork is set. 37:11 AD: How was Guam? 37:12 ZZ: It was amazing, it was a heaven on Earth. 37:13 AD: You did not have to starve anymore? 37:20 ZZ: So much food that was so much luxury. It was luxury. We were on vacation for four months. But we were all looking forward to going to America. We did not thing Guam was America yet, and then we somehow everything came together we ended up moving to Binghamton here for the guy that sponsored us we ended up moving here. 37:39 AD: Just a second, this is such a delicious thing, what is in there? Clover? You have clover in it? 37:47 ZZ: No, it is cinnamon. 37:48 AD: Oh okay, well I think Uruguay has glover in it, I think so, but it is really good. 38:00 ZZ: It is different things mixed together. Yeah, and then we came here and moved on from there. 38:04 AD: Okay, so from Guam to where? 38:07 ZZ: To here, Binghamton. ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ 38:08 AD: Oh, directly to Binghamton. So, you knew some people in Binghamton? 38:12 ZZ: We did not know them but the guy that sponsored us knew somebody that we know. It is like my dad knew somebody that knew this guy, and then– 38:20 AD: Who is this guy? 38:22 ZZ: He does not live here anymore. 38:25 AD: But he came here before? 38:27 ZZ: They were here five years before us. 38:29 AD: How did they come five years before you? 38:31 ZZ: They were the ones that went to camps in Turkey after the Gulf war. They stayed in those camps for five years and they were rescued over… were brought over as refugees. 38:43 AD: They lived in those camps for five years. 38:45 ZZ: Yes. 38:45 AD: Where can we find this guy, he might— 38:48 ZZ: He lives in Nashville now. 38:50 AD: Okay, so that is our next step. 38:53 ZZ: But there are still relatives live here, some of his, um- 38:56 AD: Really? 38:56 ZZ: Yeah. 38:57 AD: How can we reach them? 38:59 ZZ: You can reach them easily. 39:01 AD: Really? 39:02 ZZ: Yeah 39:02 AD: There you go. I think that will be interesting because they were here five years prior to you, so they may have some- 39:11 ZZ: They could tell you a lot more about the camp life because we went back to our homes or back to our cities and they lived in camps. 39:17 AD: Yeah, they lived in the camps. So, uh, then you guys came here and where did you live. You did not buy a house. 39:27 ZZ: No-no, we were put in apartments in downtown Binghamton around that area. 39:31 AD: Okay. 39:31 ZZ: The apartments were so bad, there were cockroaches and bugs and stuff all over, like it was the most disgusting apartment ever. We lived in those apartments – because my family were so big, we lived in two apartments: one in the second floor one on the third floor. And you know through the charities and churches they provided us with some beds and furniture and stuff for the kitchen. And we were given some money from the social services and places like that. So, and they were paying for our rent, then after two three months our family it just was not right, we ended up renting a house so we could all stay in there. The house was eventually too small for us, and we were far from a distant from the school that we were attending to, or we were getting ESL lessons because English is our second language. And my dad was driving us, we only had one car for such a big family. It was not working out for us. Eventually we ended up moving to housing complexes in Binghamton, east side of Binghamton where we stayed for 10 years. It was much- and this is where we all learned English, we all went to school, we got education and life was good. 40:51 AD: So, your father like how did he get an income? Like you were on government air? 41:01 ZZ: The government was giving us; it was helping us a lot. 41:04 AD: Then your father started the business? 41:07 ZZ: No, he did not. He did not work. You had to either work or take classes, like English classes. He would took English classes because we could not find him a job that was decent, because he did not know the language. After a while, when some of my older siblings got out, they started working. We just took away everything that we were associated with the government, and we became independent on our own. We supported ourselves. But that took a long time. 41:39 AD: Obviously, yeah. So, all of you guys went to school here? 41:47 ZZ: Yeah, we all went. 41:49 AD: And all of you finished college? 41:51 ZZ: Alhamdulillah [In Arabic: ٱلْحَمْدُ لِلَّٰهِ, al-Ḥamdu lillāh, praise be to God]. Yes. I mean right now she is in her second- or third-year college. 41:53 AD: Yeah, and she is over? 42:00 ZZ: And she is only two to three years when we came here. 42:04 AD: Where are you going to school? 42:05 Aryan: BU [Binghamton University]. 42:05 AD: What do you study? 42:06 Aryan: I am going to studying English, to be a teacher. 42:08 AD: Oh, that is nice. So now one of your sister’s is Ridwan’s wife. I know she is a doctor. 42:17 ZZ: She is a radiation therapist. 42:19 AD: She is not a medical doctor? 42:21 ZZ: No, I have a sister in medical school in Long Island. Dezheen. 42:26 AD: Okay, did I meet her? 42:28 ZZ: You have never met her. 42:30 AD: Was she at the event? 42:32 ZZ: No, she has been off for two years. She only came back like one weekend at a time. 42:36 AD: Okay. So, I know Karwan is an engineer. 42:40 ZZ: Karwan is an engineer he works with KRG. I will tell you from the top to the bottom. 42:42 AD: Tell me from the top to the bottom. 42:43 ZZ: Ismael was the oldest one. He was the one he got civil engineering from Utica University. He could not find a job when he needed to help my dad with the family. So, he got that translation job over in Fallujah and then he died three –four months later. Next it is Shivan. Shivan has master’s in Software and Engineering from Binghamton University. He works at the BAE locally. He is now the head of the household, because in our culture the oldest son is the head of the household, our father hands it over basically. 43:18 AD Okay. 43:19 ZZ: So that is Shivan. Older than Shivan is my sister Zhyan, she went to BCC and then she went to Binghamton University for accounting. She could not finish because she got married, she got kid and she is still in the process of finishing, she has several years. 43:35 AD: So, she does not live here? 43:36 ZZ: She lives in Binghamton just not with us. 43:38 AD: Okay, she is not in this house. 43:40 ZZ: She is not in this house. She lives separately with her husband. And then it is my sister Berivan. She works at Wilson Hospital as a Histologist. She got her degree from Broome Community College. Then it is my sister, Havrist. She is a Radiation Therapist. She sent to Syracuse University. And she is currently working on her master’s in Management, Medical Management or something. 44:06 AD: So, you guys all either in engineering or medical except you. [laughs] 44:11 Aryan: Except me [laughs] 44:15 ZZ: Then it was Karwan. And he got his degree from university, and he continued here and got his master from Electrical Engineering, and he went to DC. He works with the KRG now. He went to politics. And then it is my brother Hariwan. He lives in Kurdistan currently. 44:31 AD: He does? 44:32 ZZ: Yes. He got master’s in Architecture from North Carolina, and he is a teaching as a professor in Kurdistan right now. He always liked to live there. 44:43 AD: Okay, in Erbil? 44:44 ZZ: No, Duhok. 44:45 AD: In Duhok, okay. 44:48 ZZ: And then it is me. I got my master’s in Nurse Practitioner. I do not have a job yet. And then it is. Dezheen. 44:56 AD: I am sure you will. 44:57 ZZ: I am sure, I hope so, InshAllah [God willing]. And then it is my sister Dezheen. She is in medical school in Long Island. Then it is my brother Renjbar. He is in Colorado in Pharmacy School. 45:10 AD: Oh my God. Good Job. Maşallah [what God has willed]!! 45:19 ZZ: Then it is my sister Bizhyan, she just graduated from Broome Community College with her degree in Education. And then it is Aryan, she is doing English at Binghamton University and Stereen and Botan are still in High school. Stereen is going to nursing school at BCC in the Fall. 45:28 AD: How about Botan? 45:29 ZZ: He is too young. We do not know yet. 45:31 AD: The boys go to Engineering. 45:34 EI: No-no. Make him political science. 45:36 AD: [laughs] Why? 45:37 Aryan: Lawyer. 45:38 ZZ: My dad does not like lawyers [laughs] [Speaking Kurdish in the background] 45:45 ZZ: He wants to be a Neurosurgeon. 45:50 AD: And I want my daughter to be a neurologist. 45:55 ZZ: There you go, they could work together. 46:00 AD: They can work together. They can pass the call to each other. How is that. He is sixteen, she is ten. So perfect. That will be good. Yeah, so, you and your mother ask her as well do you miss home? 46:11 ZZ: [speaking Kurdish] She goes every year. 46:32 AD: Oh, she does? 46:33 ZZ: She goes every year. We were there last year, last summer she were there for three and a half months. 46:35 AD: Her siblings? 46:36 ZZ: Yes, she has three siblings there; one sister and two brothers. Her parents are still alive and well. Alhamdulillah. 46:44 AD: Her parents are still- Wonderful. 46:47 ZZ: It is her brother’s wedding actually this summer and it is Bezhyan’s wedding there as well. So, they are going to go and have the weddings there this summer. 46:55 AD: Her brother getting married? 46:58 ZZ: Yeah, her brother is my age. Her father only had, his first wife. He has two wives. In his first wife he had my mom and my aunt. And my grandma, her mom told my grandfather, her dad that he should he get remarried and have- because in our culture like having boys in the family to carry on the name is very important. And he only had two daughters. He did not really care, but my mom’s mom said you have to get remarried then have more kid. So, he ended up having- getting married and then he had two boys. This was late on his life. The oldest son is my age and the other…he ended up getting two boys. 47:41 AD: I see. 47:42 Zh - One is in my age, and one is twenty-five years old. 47:44 AD: Wow. 47:48 ZZ: And this is his wedding this summer. 47:50 AD: Okay, so you kid extended family? 47:53 ZZ: Yeah. 47:54 AD: That is very typical in Turkey as well, but in the city that is like disappearing but Erdem pretty much right Erdem? Like you have the extended family tradition is still continuing but that is not like really just for Kurdish families same thing for (mumbles) it is like rural setting it is still the same way and in some cases some people still continue in the cities and same thing like the male figure. 48:29 ZZ: The patriarchy. 48:30 AD: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Uh, so, here you guys you still continuing with the Kurdish tradition. 48:40 ZZ: Absolutely, yes. Actually, we have basically. 48:44 AD: So, like— 48:45 ZZ: you have something in your hand that is culture right now. 48:50 AD: Well, that is same thing in my culture, that is how we drink tea. Like when I go to visit him, he has to give me the tea in his glass he is like do you have to have a mug. I am like no. I do not want to have a mug. That is the way you drink the tea. So still cooking everything? 49:11 ZZ: Everything is Kurdish. I mean there is some, you know different stuff added on but there is still daily Kurdish rice and soups and meats and stuff like that which our basic foundation or daily intake and stuff. 49:26 AD: Yeah, like when you get up in the morning you still have the Kurdish breakfast. 49:31 ZZ: Absolutely, yogurts. [crosstalk] 49:35 AD: because this is not just… yeah. How is the breakfast? 49:40 ZZ: Breakfast is mainly consisting of yogurt, home-made yogurt, Tahini which like made from sesame seeds- 49:48 AD: I know, I put molasses in it. 49:50 ZZ: Absolutely, molasses and like baked potatoes broccolis and stuff like that just different varieties. The yogurts the tahini and the molasses these are the top three. 50:05 AD: Are the main things- 50:06 ZZ: And there is home-made bread. 50:08 AD: Homemade bread! 50:11 ZZ: homemade is always like the main thing. 50:14 AD: So, you do not have any cheese? 50:15 ZZ: Yeah, cheese too. Which is not big on, my family is not big on cheese. 50: 20 AD: But it is part of the breakfast? 50:22 ZZ: It is part of breakfast. 50:24 AD: Okay, so then you celebrate the Eid, so those are the main— 50:30 ZZ: Yes, there is two holidays: the two Eids, one after Ramadhan and the one. The Haj Eid which is like two and a half months later. But yeah, those are the two big holidays. And we do have like basically traditional ways, we all gowned up in our Kurdish dresses. 50:49 AD: Which one is that? [mumbles] 50:50 ZZ: We dressed up in our gowns true cultural gowns we go to the mosque for the Morning Prayer, we come home, people visit us we visit other people. Kids get money and gifts and candies and stuff like that. 51:10 AD: And you have festivity. 51:12 ZZ: And then we have a big family dinner or lunch. 51:17 AD: Okay, so how about Newroz? 51:20 ZZ: Yeah! Luckily, we have not had Newroz for a long time. Recently just because they way that the families around here sometime have difficulty communicating, getting together for things like that but with the help of AKC we are starting to bring back things that would have neglected for a long time. Last year was the first time we like in 10 or 11 years that had some sort of Newroz. This year I mean. 51:45 AD: I see. So, what is it? Can you describe it? 51:50 ZZ: Newroz? 51:51 AD: I mean can you describe- 51:53 ZZ: It is like a metaphorical story. It is like a metaphorical Kurdish story where there is a city being oppressed by this major king and he has this disease were the only way to cure it is he has to take the blood of young men and supposedly their blood cures his problem or at least on a daily basis. And supposedly this king kills Kurdish young men on a daily basis and this guy named Kawa decided that instead of providing this king and his servant with two male head or two young male he is going to give one male and then one sheep in replace. And the each day he was going to take this young man and put him, hide him away and then eventually he says like the community of these young men grew up strong and he trained them and they become fighters and then they rebel against this king and they killed the king and when they won they lit a fire at the top of the king’s castle to let the people know that their freedom has started. This is like a metaphorical Kurdish story just to help the Kurds know that they will come out strong one day that they can fight this oppressive king. It is like because of the history we had it always gave us the hope that this day Newroz, March 21st is the day that we celebrate our freedom. 53:29 AD: Does it also represent the change of season? 53:31 ZZ: It does, it represents change of season; basically, initially is the beginning of the New Year. Pretty much. 53:41 AD: Yeah. So, you celebrate. I know like outside you build a fire to represent- 53:48 ZZ: Yeah, fire is one of the main attributes to this event because like I said when this guy Kawa when he killed the king he lit the fire, he lit a torch to let the people know of the city it has ended, oppression has ended. So, the fire for us is still, to this day we still light fires and we light torches in celebration that day like this fire represents freedom from that oppressive king. 54:14 AD: I see, I see. So, there is that. At home what do you do? 54:19 ZZ: Not much really. 54:20 AD: No? 54:21 ZZ: No, not much. People in Kurdistan they go all cultural, they gowned up, they go to picnic, they go to outside with their families, but here is winter, we are not going to do it here. 54:35 AD: Yeah, like what picnic? Double pneumonia? [laughter] 54:39 ZZ: But anyway, back home it is full bloom spring at that time. All families get together, they go and picnic. They have dancing parties; I mean it is like the full shebang. 54:57 AD: Oh yeah. so, but also weddings are big part two. Right? Big celebrations? 55:03 ZZ: Absolutely. 55:04 AD: So, when are you getting married? 55:06 ZZ: I do not know yet, InshAllah soon. 55:08 AD: So, we will come to your wedding. 55:10 ZZ: You can actually come to Karwan’s wedding it is on July 4th and 5th. It will be here locally. 55:16 AD: Oh my God, he even did not tell me. 55:18 ZZ: He just got the invitations I do not think anybody got them. 55:26 AD: I will get on his case. So, he is getting … well we are going to weddings. I go to... No, this summer July 5th, my mother- my sister is married to a Kurdish, Turkish-Kurdish, whatever But the whole thing moved to Germany like, they are not really continuing with a lot of things, but for weddings and stuff then you see. 56:03 ZZ: Even with us too, at home I think my family and a couple of families here wear more Kurdish traditional at home than some the other Kurdish here. They are more prone to more westernized- 56:20 AD: Well, I mean cooking and stuff you see it but like here when I come here, I feel more you know like traditional than when I visit his families, his relatives, but the weddings is like Zurna, it is the same way in Kurdish. Am I right? 56:43 ZZ: Yeah, pretty much. 56:44 AD: And then the drum and the whole dance and thing. So, they had this henna night. 56:53 ZZ: Yeah, we are going to dance on July forth is the henna night, and July fifth is the wedding. 57:00 AD: In German community like the Kurds living in German, the way they do it is like usually I think in Turkey the way they do it like women celebrate by themselves, then crowed In Germany it is like a mini wedding. So, the henna night was like three hundred people, I am not kidding you, and on the wedding was one thousand people that big. And so, when we entered the henna night the music started, my daughter started dancing and then the music stopped she sat down. Same thing, she loves dancing [laughs], and then everybody was oh God she is just little Kurdish girl – no hesitation, she just dancing and separate people. 58:07 Aryan: You are going to do that for my brother’s wedding. 58:10 ZZ: We are going to have a similar wedding here. On July 4th, the night- 58:14 AD: Okay, mark the calendar. 58:16 ZZ: July 4th is the henna night. It is going to be in the Days Inn, and it is one of the big houses. There is going to be dancing [crosstalk] And then on July 5th, wedding day also the same thing. [crosstalk] 58:55 AD: Then, we will do your wedding. Speaking of that, because I asked this question to Nirgiz, I will ask you the same question. Will you marry someone other than Kurdish? 59:00 ZZ: Personally no. 59:01 AD: No? 59:02 ZZ: I am like I am who I am. I do not want to ever give up who I am. I think my history and my roots are still engraved in me, I will never, I mean fate, God will lead you to whatever He want, If I have to personally choose I would much rather with someone understandable, like have the same root, that has the same thing as me. I am not saying that the other people would not understand, but I would much rather culturally I would rather be with someone that I can relate. 59:43 AD: Would you think, with you go with someone, let us say someone from Turkey, Kurdish. 59:45 ZZ: Yeah. 59:45 AD: But not- 59:46 ZZ: That is fine, yeah. 59:47 AD: As long as ethnicity is Kurdish- 59:49 ZZ: As long as they are Muslim, they are like Kurdish, but going outside my culture is not really what I want. 59:50 AD: But what if they are not Kurdish but they are Muslim and they accept you the way you are? 1:00:00 ZZ: I have had a lot of Pakistani Muslims at the hospital and other like Iraqi and Arab that are doctors. I am just, I cannot get that communication with them. 1:00:19 AD: But it is going to kind of hard to find your Kurdish doctor. 1:00:23 ZZ: No, it is not bad there is a lot of Kurdish out there 1:00:30 AD: Okay, so may be when we do oral history in Nashville and New York city I will keep my eyes on. 1:00:40 ZZ: I did not even make you a match maker now. 1:00:45 AD: We will make the recommendation- 1:00:48 1:00:49 ZZ: Thank you. 1:00:50 AD: Yeah, because here I think your family and Nirgiz’s family are like, Nirgiz is also well educated like her sisters as well, so big families. Yeah. So let me see what else. You do not know so much to talk about? 1:01:05 ZZ: I ask my questions a lot, my parents, they do remind us, like I cannot neglect my history 1:01:10 AD: but it is like what you remember is really bitter memories, trauma you know. 1:01:15 ZZ: because as a young child that is why you remember like the traumatic experiences where there really happy moments. You do not remember the day left in between. 1:01:25 AD: you only remember like is bitter memories – trauma. 1:01:30 ZZ: And that was mainly daily living for us.it was a lot of traumas, it was a lot of crazy stuff going on. 1:01: 40 AD: But do you remember any like visit, like extended family and stuff over there? 1:01:45 ZZ: Yeah, there has always been a thing like extended families are always coming, they always visit if there is a sickness in the family or death in the family, an event in the family, a wedding or anything like that that was always visitation. 1:02:21 AD: I see. So, how about like here. I see here your mother’s family is still over there. 1:02:29 ZZ: I am not sure what you are asking? 1:02:58 AD: Here, do you have other relatives, other than your immediate? 1:03:00 ZZ: No, I do not. 1:03:01 AD: So, all your aunts, uncles 1:03:03 ZZ: All are back home. 1:03:05 AD: And do you go visit? 1:03:08 ZZ: I went ones. I went last year. 1:03:14 AD: Just ones? 1:03:14 ZZ: Just once. 1:03:15 AD: And what did you think? 1:03:17 ZZ: I did not like it. 1:03:18 AD: You did not? 1:03:19 ZZ: the climate was different for me. The people’s mindsets were different for me. I liked some of them, but it was stressful time for me because I was planning my brother’s wedding. It was a lot of like I was crying for time, I had to leave my job it was a very stressful time getting the time, the whole package the whole time together was tough on me, the experience was not as peasant as I was wanted to be. After the wedding was over, it was a little more pleasant because then I can relax a little bit but up to the end and as soon as the wedding was over, I basically had to leave. 1:03:53 AD: I see. 1:03:53 ZZ: So, Like the whole planning, organizing and stuff like that I was just like my time was spent on organizing stuff, and I had just left a very stressful semester, I was like one thing after another. So, I mean if I had to rate the country based on resorts and travel and stuff like that, I think it was very nice. I loved it. I loved the time that we took to just go explore the villages and like the Erbil city. 1:04:25 AD: How did the city look like? Better than- 1:04:27 ZZ: Oh my God, everywhere there was construction, there was like houses and buildings popping up everywhere. 1:04:37 AD: Do you see still like effect of war? Like the areas 1:04:41 ZZ: Not so much, because every other house is under construction, and if it is not renovating the house because the house in the middle of already fixed. So everywhere is renovated everywhere is different. You will not find a place that worthwhile. 1:05:00 AD: I see. 1:05:01 ZZ: Because there is, the city has expanded so much, the people have you know taken care of it. There is still into plant trees, there is businesses there is schools, there is new schools, there is, everything is renovated now. If not done, it is halfway there. It is all different now. 1:05:19 AD: Okay, well I think Zhiman that is pretty much wrapped up. I am just going to turn this off. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. 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Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1/25/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Catherine Abashian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:14:04 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}" data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Cathy was born in Binghamton to Turkish and Irish-English-German parents. She attended Hartwick College and later graduated from Binghamton University. After graduating, she worked for her father at his company. Cathy has one son, Nathan.&quot;}">Cathy was born in Binghamton to Armenian and Irish-English-German parents. She attended Hartwick College and later graduated from Binghamton University. After graduating, she worked for her father at his company. Cathy has one son, Nathan.</span> Keywords Armenians; Community; Family; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Massacre; Church; Food; Culture; Dance; Discrimination; AGBU; Turkey; Ottoman Empire; Binghamton. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Cathrine Abashian Williams Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 25 January 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 AD: So, today is January 25, 2017 and I am interviewing with Cathy Abashian Williams. Okay, so but go ̶ ahead Cathy and tell me your full name for the record. 0:20 CA: Sure. My name is Catherine. My middle name is Rose named after my Armenian grandmother translated her name as Esgouhi, so Rose. Abashian is my maiden name and Williams is my previous married name and professional name and the name of my son. 0:44 AD: So, where were you born Cathy? 0:47 CA: I was born in Binghamton, at Binghamton General Hospital, which is over on the Southside in 1961, August 6th. 0:59 AD: So, which generation you belong to? So, who was born here before you? 1:06 CA: My father was born here on June 27, 1927 in an apartment in Binghamton on Clinton Street and he was the first generation and I am the second. 1:24 AD: I see. So, how about your mother? 1:28 CA: So, my mother was the second oldest of ten children of Irish-English-German Catholic parents. So, she was born in the United States. Her parents were born in the United States too. 1:40 AD: But she was not an Armenian? 1:41 CA: No, she was not. 1:42 AD: Okay, so your paternal grandfather was born ̶ overseas? 1:54 CA: Yes, he was born– so my paternal grandfather and grandmother– now my grandmother was born in Kassab, Syria and my grandfather may have been born in Turkey I believe. 2:08 AD: Okay, but that was old Ottoman Empire back, then right? 2:12 CA: Yes. 2:13 AD: So, what was your father doing, like he was born here and what kind of education or occupation he had? 2:26 CA: So, he was born he went to Public School here in Binghamton. When he was seventeen, he enrolled in the New York State March at Marine Academy, which is now SUNY (State University of New York) Maritime in the Bronx and went there and studied and then ultimately graduated from there and joined the US Navy. He was a Ship Engineer. And he worked in the engine room of the ships and he had a career in the navy and ultimately, he came back to Binghamton and he met his first wife who was Russian. Her family were first generation. She was first generation Carpathian, Russians who came to this country from–to work in the coal mines in Scranton. And they were from a large family in Binghamton. So, he married her and she was sick. She had Asthma. 3:46 AD: I see. 3:46 CA: And so, they had my oldest sister Roxanne, and then they moved to Arizona because of the climate, because she could not breathe very well and had my second oldest sister and then she contracted pneumonia and she died when my sisters were six months old and a year and a half old. So, my father’s sisters went to Arizona came and brought him and the girls back to Binghamton and they lived with his family, his parents and then he met my mother who was number two of ten children from the Irish end. So, then they got married and then they have four more children. I have two older brothers, me and then Dan my younger brother. And so, there was six total children of my father and four of them were from my mother and two from my oldest sister’s mother. 4:58 AD: Are they all living in the area? CA: No, Dan– Daniel and I are the only ones here and I– my next oldest brother lives in Huntsville, Alabama, and my next oldest brother lives in Santa Cruise, California. And then my two oldest sisters, they are my half-sisters but you know mother raised them from the time when they were babies. They live in Long Island and New Jersey. 5:29 AD: So, your father basically grew up in an Armenian household, is that correct? 5:36 CA: Yes. It is. 5:37 AD: So, was he fluent in Armenian? Was he speaking Armenian? Do you remember? 5:43 CA: Yes, he grew up, he and his siblings were bilingual because they learned English in school and so they– English– they spoke Armenian at home and English in the school and they had friends as they were growing up. So– 6:06 AD: How many siblings did your father have? 6:10 CA: There were seven children, so he was one of the seven. 6:12 AD: A big family! 6:13 CA: Uh-huh. 6:14 AD: And where are those people? Are they still in the area? 6:21 CA: Right, so my– five of the siblings have passed away including my father. And the two remaining siblings are his two younger sisters Rose she lives in Doylestown in Pennsylvania outside of Philadelphia and Violet is in San Diego, California. 6:40 AD: Okay, and so are they– they were obviously married right? 6:49 CA: Right, so, um Rose married a doctor in the navy who–you know, his parents were born here. He was–I do not know what their ethnicity was, Blackburn is the name and Violet also married an American, Reckonridge is his name. And Violet and Wilber had four children, four girls and my uncle and aunt adopted two children, a boy and a girl. 7:26 AD: So, what did your grandfather do when he came here? How old was he do you know that? 7:33 CA: So, my grandmother– 7:36 AD: Your grandmother and grandfather both of them– 7:37 CA: So, he had actually come here as a teenager. He stowed away on a ship and he came here and got an opportunity to work in Dunn McCarthy Shoe Factory. A lot of the immigrants to this area worked for Endicott Johnson or Dunn McCarthy Shoe Factory. So, he went back to, at that point my grandmother and her remaining family were in a refugee camp at Port Saeed in Alexandria, Egypt. So, he went back there because he had met her brother who arranged the marriage for my grandmother to marry but he came here and he secured work and then they, um, actually were in Paris for three months before they came here and they emigrated from Paris through Ellis Island together but they came to Binghamton because the jobs were at the shoe factory. 8:49 AD: So, your grandfather came here before or after the massacre– like which year was that? 9:00 CA: It was– I have to confirm the dates but when he first came here; he was undocumented and he was not authorized. So, he was, you know, as you said they communicate and I do not know how his connection was but, so he must have– 9:19 AD: Yeah, they have network and then they follow that– 9:21 CA: So, I am thinking that– so the massacre began (19)15, (19)16. So, it was probably 1918 and he was three or four years older than my grandmother. So, she was born in nineteen hundred which meant that he was born– so he probably was twenty when he came here maybe, late teens or early twenties and then– 9:53 AD: So, he escaped the massacre basically? 9:56 CA: Yeah, I am not as familiar– um we had recordings of my uncle giving us presentation in oral history we could share with you. 10:04 AD: Oh, yeah. 10:04 CA: It is a video actually. 10:06 AD: That would be fantastic. 10:06 CA: When they were together as a family a few years ago, that was done and he talks about where– he shows the map where both of his parents were from and so I am not sure, I cannot remember– 10:21 AD: No, that is fine, that is fine. 10:23 CA: So, but he actually fled the situation when his father remarried. I do not know–his mother died I think and his father remarried and the woman burned his little brother. She burned him with, I do not know if it was iron or bath and he died and so my grandfather, you know it was a bad situation and ultimately, he fled and he was living on his own from a young age. 10:58 AD: I see. 11:01 CA: So, and yeah so, my guess is that my grandmother was probably eighteen or nineteen when she came here. She did not really know her birth date. She did not know when it was. So, they estimated it. 11:14 AD: So, it was kind of like an arranged marriage? 11:17 CA: Yes, absolutely. She did not know him until the day of her marriage and then they went from Alexandria to Paris and then they came to the US. 11:29 AD: Okay, and with seven kids I assume she was a homemaker. 11:35 CA: Yes, yes. 11:36 AD: And he worked at that shoe factory? 11:38 CA: Right. 11:39 AD: Okay, so was there Armenian community at that time in Binghamton? 11:46 CA: Well it is interesting because you know there is an Armenian Church here that you are aware of on Corbett Avenue and but my grandparents were, not adopted, but the protestant church, the United Church of Christ, First Congregational Church sponsored a number of Armenians. So, those that were not aligned with the Armenian Catholic, they were protestant, came to this church and so the family, really the church was the supporting kind of entity, you know culturally and socially and so they were lifelong members of the First Congregational Church in Binghamton. 12:42 AD: I see. So, your father basically grew up in Armenian tradition? 12:53 CA: Armenian tradition in America in a very poor section of Binghamton called the first ward where all of the immigrants lived. So, he– it was not just Armenians and it is interesting I saw the list of the people you interviewed I hope that was okay– 13:18 AD: Oh, yeah, I share it– Of course, it is okay. 13:21 CA: So, it is some of the families on that list had a very different experience here than my father’s family. 13:27 AD: But that is good, that makes this collection even stronger, yeah. 13:33 CA: Right. So, his family was the poorest of the Armenians. Pretty much they were at the bottom of the Armenian food chain in our community. 13:44 AD: Really? 13:44 CA: Yeah, they were, very. 13:46 AD: Why? Do you know why? 13:48 CA: Well, you know, the Kachadourians are a family who were poor but they began buying a lot of property and they lived, it was interesting because, and if I can be completely frank there was like the– 14:11 AD: Please! 14:13 CA: So, there was the poorest, then there were those that the marginally, you know, were connected and had some resources. And then there were the more affluent. And the Kradjian family was the senior affluent Armenian family in this community. The father, Kenneth, and the dry cleaners and now they have incredible wealth. It was interesting– 14:43 AD: Troy and Bates? 14:44 CA: Bates & Troy and Ara Kradjian and Harry and Brann and their father was Kenneth–– 14:49 AD: But we did not interview with them, did we? 14:52 CA: Yeah, all of those you have on the list, I do not know. 14:54 AD: Okay, alright, so Gregory probably did it. 14:57 CA: I think there is some interview there–So, there was a hierarchy here locally amongst the Armenian socio-economic, I think, level. 15:10 AD: Yea, class differences. 15:14 CA: And I remember hearing that, because we knew, we would– so, we were based in the same First Congregational Church, my family was, but we would go to the Armenian Church Friday night, dance group. We would do Armenian dancing. We would take Armenian class and we would do like the activities associated with the Civic Association, you know, it was connecting with our heritage even at a young age, so that was how I got to meet a lot of the Armenians that went to Saint Gregory’s on Corbett Ave. So, but there was this hierarchy of the families. So, the Armenian community was tight, you know, and some of those first generations became physicians, and you know have more affluence and ultimately my father went into–he started his own vending food, vending machines where he bought a cigarette machine and a coffee machine and he put it in public places and then he grew to have a successful business of manufacturing cafeterias and then manu– and he grow and so he built his own wealth, I guess, in that regard and the–but the interesting thing is regardless of how much wealth everybody who was here either survived the genocide or their parents did. And so, they always had that. It was always that very humble, very complicated life, you know before they came to America. So, from my grandparents and their children, my father– it was a new opportunity but they struggled, they were very poor, and they were not of the upper echelon of society they were– 17:29 AD: So, did you– obviously they should tell you if they felt that way– so some of them were richer than the others. So, how were they treating each other, you know, it was a close community, you know small group, ethnic group, so were the rich Armenians kind of taking care of the poor ones like providing job for them or something like that, I mean– 18:00 CA: You know, probably I do not really know but probably. But I do remember a story that was– so Ara Kradjian– and this may have been translated to something totally different than what the reality was but he, you know his family had a level of stature here as he started to grow, and they had got considerable wealth and my father’s younger sister Violet was very beautiful and she was Armenian, and apparently he, I do not know if he had loved her but he had interest in her, and my aunt told me that they were, he was discouraged by his family because they were the poor. And I always felt sad about that. I remember hearing that and thinking my God you people came from the same horrible circumstance and one path let you have wealth and so he– so they never were together and it is kind of tragic story in a way that can be interesting and my aunt she has Alzheimer’s now. So, my fear is that those stories are lost because she does not really have the recollection or it is a different recollection or something now but that was something that made me feel very sad. 19:48 AD: It is very sad, you know, you would not think that what happen, interesting. So, and your father went married a non-Armenian person. 20:01 CA: Correct, correct. Only one of the children married an Armenian. 20:06 AD: Actually, two non-Armenian women, your father married too, right? 20:12 CA: Yes, married a Russian, a first generation Russian, Carpathian Russian and the second was my mother. So, yes, they– he married two in fact, so we call it odar it is outsider. So, the only one of my father’s siblings who married an Armenian was his older sister Lora and she married an Armenian ̶ gorian. And he was in the marines and so she had a little bit of different experience but nobody stayed in Binghamton except for my father they left and went all over the country. 21:04 AD: So, but you were told that you were Armenian when you were growing ̶ I mean when did you realize what is Armenian as a child? 21:18 CA: Well, some of it was not very good. I mean I guess I knew because we would go to my grandmother’s every Sunday and we would have sarma, which is stuffed grape leaves and pilav and the Armenian– 21:31 AD: Köfte– 21:32 CA: Yes, all of it, yes, I would love to have them–yes excellent food. So, we knew, and it was interesting because my mother was even though she was very white Anglo-WASP would encourage that and she got very involved in the Armenian AGBU, Armenian General Benevolent Union I think it is called, they are the Armenian group. They are not very active here anymore but they are quite active in the nation and so we would go to the Armenian dance and Armenian school on Friday nights. So that was our exposure and then I was probably–one of my earliest recollections was in our neighborhood the families were all very white Anglo-Saxton, Protestant or Catholic and a new family moved in and I went because they had a little boy and our yards were connected and I went down to see him and his family was Italian. And he said, I was very dark-skinned, very– I looked very Armenian, my brothers have a little lighter skin but I looked very Armenian, and he said get out of my yard, you Negro. Like trying to call me a Negro or, you know, Nigger but he said get out of my yard and then his father and mother were very Italian and very discriminating against the Armenians and as I got older we had a lake home in out in Pennsylvania and there were a number of Italians who had lake homes out on this lake and so all the kids would play together but all of the Italian kids would call us Camel Jockey and Sand Nigger ̶ 24:04 AD: Oh My God, Italians! 24:06 CA: Yes, the Italians were horrible to us and I remember going back and saying to my father what is a sand nigger, and he was like– 24:19 AD: Sorry, it is just horrible. 24:21 CA: Yeah, it is, I mean what I told Alexi, he was like you know ̶ because I said do I tell in the interview, he said absolutely. So, when I was a pre-teen in school kids would say oh are you Italian because if they look and I say yeah and I would lie and I would say that I was Italian because every experience that we were having and, you know they would be very derogatory towards my father and they were all Italian immigrants themselves and it was very interesting to say– 25:02 AD: It is interesting because Italians mostly are our complexion and whenever I travel people think I am Italian– 25:12 CA: Right that is what–growing up, that is what everybody thought. You’ve a dark hair you are Italian. It was not very diverse– 25:20 AD: Because you know not everybody knows who Armenian is. Now there are more people but still, you know, Italians are known with the olive complexion, dark hair– 25:30 CA: So, people would say oh you must be Italian–And I would say yes because it just it hurt– it hurt me terribly. 25:37 AD: Obviously! 25:39 CA: A Camel Jockey, like go get your camel– 25:42 AD: I never heard that term before, I know right now, in this century I think Sand Nigger is referred to Middle Easterner by period. 25:54 CA: but that is what they– so that is what they called–and but camel jockey was the other one like they would say, and the parents would say it. 26:00 AD: Parents! Obviously, they learned from their parents. 26:07 CA: Yes. 26:08 AD: But openly they say it? 26:08 CA: Uh-huh. 26:08 AD: That is horrible! 26:13 CA: So, I think that is the closest probably we came to being discriminated against really, but it was– it was in my formative years and I found that I would tend to hide my ethnicity then because I was shocked with the reaction. So, but I did not always do that. As I got older I was, you know, I became more committed to be– I identify as Armenian. 26:47 AD: But when you were younger– 26:53 CA: Yes. Well those experiences happened, and so the next door neighbors were different families and they were very WASPY white and so we had one day in the summer all the kids would come and we had a picnic table and my mom brought outside some food and I had a sarma and the kid said you are eating dog poop, dog doo, it looks like dogs poop, and so they were making fun of us. And we were like it is not dog’s poop, you know and they were having hot dogs my mother brought out the sarma, in the grape leaf and they were like “aaaaah”–that was another thing. It was a little bit unusual I guess– 27:42 AD: That is why, you did not want to eat any kind of food– 27:45 CA: Not in front of them. 27:46 AD: That is right. You would not take it to school for example. 27:50 CA: No, no. Not really. 27:53 AD: Because I think similar kind of things are still going on like there is still like condescending attitudes toward refugee immigrants– like what they eat or it does not smell good and stuff like that– 28:15 CA: But those were the negative impressions I got as a child but– and for a short period of time I was dishonest about my ethnicity in elementary school or, you know, I would say no I am Italian– they say “Are you Italian?” I would say “Yes.” You know, but my last name clearly did not indicate that I was Italian if they knew anything about Armenia they would know I was Armenian based on my last name. 28:41 AD: That is right. So, when you were growing up did you have Armenian friends that you played with, spent time with– 28:52 CA: So, the only connection that I had with the Armenian kids was when we would go to the Corbett Avenue Church on Friday nights and then I was part of the dance group. We did the Armenian dances and go the Civic Association and so I would say they were friends but we would see them once or twice a month; then the Kradjians were having very big picnic in the summer. They lived over behind the University and they had– they owned the land that the University is on now. 29:27 AD: Oh, really? 29:28 CA: Oh, yeah, their family home is on the university property. 29:33 AD: Oh, there is one home is that their home? 29:36 CA: It is theirs. When you coming by Denny’s. 29:39 AD: Yeah, I know that house. 29:41 CA: So that is where Kenneth and his wife lived until they died in Kenneth had remarried and his wife lived there. But the family still owns that home. AD: Who lives there right now? I do not know who is there. But I think there was some problem with the new wife and so took them a while but she moved but so they would have a big picnic and all the Armenians would come and they had a pond an area up behind the university and I would remember those days going to that. And then there was an Armenian dance every year that was put on by the AGBU. My mother was very active in organizing that. She was like the one non-Armenian. You know she was odar wife but she was very into that and so I would see them there. But I did not have an extremely strong connection with other Armenian kids because they were not in my neighborhood and they did not go to my school, and so the only way I did was by, you know, my mother taking us to Armenian dance on Friday nights and– 30:46 AD: Visiting your grandparents. 30:49 CA: Right, right. And my cousins when we would get together, so– 31:00 AD: So, you did not learn Armenian growing up? 31:05 CA: No, and I cannot speak much of it at all. I got to a point where I could understand some and my grandmother was– used hybrid of Armenian and English. She never was fully one hundred percent fluent English. She would–so but my grandfather spoke seven–spoke and read seven languages. And so, I did not really ever– 31:33 AD: I am sure he knew Turkish, your grandfather. 31:36 CA: Yes, my grandfather was very fluent in Turkish and, gosh, I am not sure the other languages French, you know– 31:47 AD: Probably French because at that time French was a second language in Ottoman Empire and that is the time period that they were sending delegates to Europe and if, you know, look at the Ottoman history those delegates were all Armenian and so because– and even like today what is– what, what is left in Istanbul, the Armenians, although we have more Armenians– Greeks are completely gone, I mean that was like big blow because of the, you know, the war and of the after the WWI when the freedom war and at that time Greece wanted piece of Turkey so that is why like there was this unbelievable hatred towards Greeks, not towards Armenians or Jews. So, that is why they were targeted the most. So, I mean, I think there are only two thousand Greeks in Istanbul anything like thousands of them. So, there is a region in Istanbul still like heavily populated. It is traditional that is their home and they still live in that region, a lot of Armenians, middle class Armenians of course like really rich ones live in other, like, more wealthy areas– 33:33 CA: Yeah, we have family that actually landed in Beirut and there is a lot of– in Beirut still to this day. 33:44 AD: That like was typical leaving. They all went to Lebanon from Lebanon to France, France to the United States and some stayed in France, they did not leave. So, they did what they got to do, you know, wherever they could get asylum they stayed in that country. So, how about your other siblings, your two older half-sisters and your, you know, blood sisters, how about your siblings, how did they feel about being Armenian? 34:29 CA: Um, you know, my oldest sister married an Armenian. She got divorced but she married an Armenian that she met–she was a camp counselor at camp Nubar which was an Armenian camp. And so, she ̶ 34:44 AD: Where was that camp? Is it still going on? 34:46 CA: You know, it may be, I have to ask her I will find out but she went there as a camper, as a younger person and then she became a counselor and her–one of her camp, like campers she supervised, she married his brother. And they were from Long Island. That is how she met him. So, they had two children together. So, my sister is half Armenian because her mother was Russian and her husband was one hundred percent Armenian and Assyrian is their name. And incidentally her father in-law is ninety-nine and lives in Florida and is driving a car and plays softball. He is an athlete. He is an anomaly. He is an amazing person. There is something great. I mean yeah, like I am wow! So, he lives he is still alive. So, they–my sister had two children. My second oldest is a lesbian. She never– she has a life partner of twenty-five years who is from Jamaica actually. So, but she has not been involved with the Armenian community but had a very, had the closest bond with my grandmother of any of us. She was at that age. We were younger, you know, so she had a very close bond with my father. She looked, she looked like me with a dark hair, dark skin and so that is her situation and then my brother Paul has never married but he has been with a woman for twenty-five years who is– I do not– she may be Jewish¬–Koenig. K-O-E-N-I-G is her name. I do not know much about her. He is not really– he does not communicate with the family since my father died. 36:57 AD: I see. 36:58 CA: So, we do not hear a lot from him. And then my brother Peter who was closest in age to me who lives in Alabama is divorced and he has a fourteen-year-old daughter. And he married a Southern– 37:20 AD: Belle. 37:21 CA: Yeah, Southern belle Baptist like, yeah, yeah that was an interesting coupling. I am not sure how that happened but it did not last. So, and then me, and then my brother Dan, so, but, you know, that is kind of how we grew up we– Dan did not really have the exposure to the Armenian community because by the time he was growing up, my parents were divorcing and you know the community here has gotten very diluted. People my age many have moved away, you know many of the–there is still some here, and someone you should talk to is Talene Kachadourian. I have some other people that I think might be interested so– 38:19 AD: Kachadourian is Jackie–my student is Kachadourian. Her uncle is the surgeon. So, and then her father is the lawyer. 38:35 CA: Okay, that is her cousin is Talene. And Talene is younger than me a little bit. But she is very– she identify as almost only Armenian. 38:51 AD: So how do you– Talene– 38:53 CA: T-A-L-E-N-E. So, you could tell Jackie that her cousin Talene, her father is the surgeon. 38:56 AD: Talene’s father is the surgeon. 39:01 CA: Talene is the president of the Greater New York Armenian Professional Group. 39:10 AD: Oh, really! 39:11 CA: It has thousands of people involved. And she is– I do not know how the family gets along–How the cousins get along– 39:19 AD: I will check with Jackie. Jackie is– I wish her schedule fit it–I would have brought here extremely sweet girl. I love her to pieces. I mean she is such a nice girl! 39:33 CA: Is she related, is Corinne? So how old is Jackie? 39:40 AD: Jackie is sophomore right now, nineteen, maximum twenty. 39:46 CA: Okay, so she is. So, Jackie is her– 39:55 AD: She has an older sister I do not know her name. 40:00 CA: Right, but her parent– 40:01 AD: Her father is the lawyer. 40:02 CA: Right, and her grandfather is a lawyer. 40:05 AD: I think so yes. 40:07 CA: So, her father– Jackie’s father did Armenian dance and Jackie’s aunt Corinne did Armenian dance with me. So, her parents are my generation. 40:20 AD: She is very– I mean, when you see Jackie talk to her and you would never think she has an extremely strong sense of Armenian in her but I interviewed with her and so she really wants to marry an Armenian like extremely pro-Armenian. There is nothing wrong with that. But what I am saying is like after so many generations it is still very strong, so that is like amazing to me. 40:52 CA: You know who else did that was Brian Kradjian. So, Brian is our son and Brian is my Brother Dan’s age. 41:01 AD: Oh really? 41:02 CA: And he dated my niece who was Armenian and it is interesting because he only wanted an Armenian girl. He was with some people that were not but ultimately, he married a Los Angeles Armenian who was from I believe Lebanon. I am not sure where she is from but Alexi met her and totally speaks Russian because she was part of the Soviet– But Brian is another interesting person no I am just going to have you to turn it off for one second if possible– 41:48 AD: Okay, so we are back now. So, your first husband was not an Armenian– 41:57 CA: No, he was a WASP, very WASP. Shetler was the name. I was young and I was married for a short time. But he–yeah very, very WASPY background. 42:14 AD: Okay, and you have how many children? 42:17 CA: I have one. So, I was married at twenty-three. I got divorced. I met my second husband, the son of–who was the father of my son. He– Williams, that is my name from, you, know, the time– 42:33 AD: That is not Armenian either. 42:35 CA: No, no, no. He was Polish. His father was one hundred Polish and his father English. So– 42:42 AD: What is your son’s name? 42:45 CA: Nathan. 42:43 AD: Not Armenian. 42:45 CA: No, Nathan David Williams. 42:49 AD: Okay, very American, western. So, you did not want to give any Armenian name, not even like middle name? 42:57 CA: Yeah, no I did not, I did not– his middle name is his father’s name David. So, no, I did not. I was going to name him after my father, Peter, but my brother Dan, well Peter is younger than my son but it was almost like I was giving my brothers the opportunity to name a boy, Peter Abashian after our father. 43:32 AD: I see. So, how about your son? Was he involved in anything Armenian related? 43:40 CA: No, not really, he did the only thing is that Corrine, Phil’s daughters he went to school with them; Catholic school and he went to Catholic school. I was a Catholic. But so, he had some exposure in that regard and attended the Armenian dances. That is about it. He has not really had, he did– he is exposed to the food through my father and my family get togethers. 43:32 AD: I see. 44:12 CA: But he did not– I did not raise him– I mean he did some papers in school about his grandmother and the Armenian Genocide and such but he never really had much connection. 44:31 AD: So, but he knows he has an Armenian ancestry? 44:36 CA: Oh, absolutely. 44:38 AD: So, does he acknowledge that he is partially Armenian like if I meet him and if ask him what is your background is, would he– 44:48 CA: Absolutely, he would say my father is Polish and my mother– 44:50 AD: is Armenian– 44:52 CA: Uh-huh. 44:52 AD: So, okay, all right. So, let us see. So other than your grandparents, you did not have like full Armenian–I mean, other than your father obviously but you had like uncles, your great uncles, great aunts, those people were around you too right, Your grandfather’s siblings? 45:31 CA: No, no. 45:32 AD: I mean no, no. your father’s siblings. 45:33 CA: My father’s siblings, yes. So, they were my uncles and aunts yes. 45:37 AD: Yeah, yeah. They were around. So, okay, let me see I was thinking something. So, who was talking about what happened to your grandparents? Was it your grandfather– how do you know what their story is– I mean obviously some– 46:03 CA: My grandmother shared with her children and her children shared the story and I remember– do you know the card game ishli. I do not know what it is. So, my grandmother used to always want to teach me this ishli. I never knew how to play it. I do not know, but it was something she said she played her whole life as a child with some cards like playing cards. She called it ishli. 46:32 AD: I think it is– it must be because that is like really common card game over there. Maybe they were using another name so it is like four people play. 46:44 CA: Yeah, I really do not understand how it is played. I used to just pretend because I did not know and I did not– You know, she sometimes struggled with her language so it was difficult and I did not understand Armenian– so, oh, I am sorry I told you only one of my father’s sisters married Armenian. The second one did– married an Armenian doctor. So, she also was very– She was the one who– I am going to give you– I can send this to you via email but she penned this poem that talks about her grandmother’s death and how her– she sacrificed her sons on Musa Dagh (Turkish: Musa Dağı) and you know the story is that the survivors were rescued by a French ̶ They held sheets over the edge of the cliff that said SOS and they were– and it is a very interesting story but I just wanted to show you just something I took the picture of this morning two other things I took pictures of just to show you. So here is the family. This is my father ̶ 47:57 AD: Oh, that is wonderful. 48:00 CA: This is a picture we have in our home but, so he was white, very white, pale. My grandmother I look similar to her. And so, this is them and this is their family. So here is Sarah, she married an Armenian doctor from Pennsylvania. This is Steve, he married a Southern belle. This is my father Peter. So, this is my lineage right here. This is my grandmother and to think that she really was not thirty years old here she looks so old to me, you know, they are just amazing and this is– so Sarah, this is Lora, this Is Alec, and this is Rose and Violet was not even born when this picture was taken. So, here they are with six of their seven children. But this was– this is a classic photo. 49:04 AD: Yeah, probably all those birds and the lifestyle that is why she aged, you know what I mean? 49:09 CA: Yeah, she was an old soul when she came here. You know, what she survived. 49:16 AD: Giving birth to six children and you did not even know if she lost any in between. 49:20 CA: Right, right we do not know that. But this is the memorial to my grandmother I will send this to you and then I will make the copy of it but it is the poem of my aunt Sarah the oldest girl. She was the one who most connected with our Armenian heritage and our parents. And it is just a beautiful, beautiful haunting and she never met her obviously because she died but it is– but I will share that you with something that I have on my will. 49:56 AD: So, your grandmother told some stories to her children like what had happened like to her family. How about your grandfather, was he also like sharing anything? 50:51 CA: I think he was quieter. He would share some with his children but honestly the majority of the verified history comes from my uncle in his travels. He was a physicist, a world renowned physicist and he did work in Yerevan, and he has done a significant amount of research and if I show you this video, give you this video I have it on CD, DVD, you will see everything that he learned and he told us the story and there is documented histories that some of my cousins and their spouses had continued to tell and it is like these documented things that keep getting added to. So, but the stories started with my grandparents but my uncle being– he was then professor Emeritus and the Virginia Tech and he did– so he documented a lot for the rest of it– he did, he did and we were close but we have video of him telling the story and with a map and you know here–we are all sitting there its out at our camp so I would be happy to share it with you because it is– 51:40 AD: Yeah that gives the family history, absolutely. So, is there anything like left over from your grandmother like anything like represents, like for example you have this poem you cherish, like anything like did she do anything like whatever, handmade ̶ 52:09 CA: Crochet, she did– she learnt that here was not really Armenian style– 52:14 AD: It is here. 52:15 CA: It is something here but I do have and I do not wear it much it is an eighteen-carat gold bangle. She had two when she came here; bracelet that I have had repaired it a number of times. It is soft gold but I wore it a lot, but it is a beautiful– 52:37 AD: Do you know what it is called because of the carat. 52:40 CA: Right, the high quality, and I have had it repaired; it is a cool thing I will be happy to show you, you know but there– 52:48 AD: So, she came with that. 52:50 CA: She had two of them when she came with them and my cousin has the other one. My sister has other artifacts, like my grandfather’s prayer beads, these special beads. There are certain things that we had but not too much tangible and intangible but my sister has a lot of photographs, we have, you know we have numbers of them but so yeah, I would be happy to give you photos and– 53:30 AD: So, you met them right your grandparents? 53:32 CA: Oh, yes, yes. So, they lived in Binghamton until maybe 1972. 53:41 AD: So, you were still young? 53:44 CA: Well– eleven, twelve–they moved out with my aunt in California and then they died there as they got older but we spent a lot of time with them when I was young. 53:57 AD: So, do you remember their house? 54:01 CA: Uh-huh. They lived down Mathew Street in Binghamton. 54:04 AD: So, like when you entered the house did it look like any other American house or was it different? 54:10 CA: Yeah, it did. It did. It was American looking. I remember the smell. 54:16 AD: Okay, so it smelt different right? 54:18 CA: It did. It smelled like lamb, yeah. I mean I remember that smell. And when I smell it I have a neighbor who is Lebanese and when she– I smell and it is like [gasps] you know because it is not–yeah– 54:31 AD: Smell is one of the important– it triggers our memory that is for sure. So, but not because like, I do not know the way they decorated the house or– 54:43 CA: Yeah, it was just more various plain simple nothing, nothing overly–so they had pictures of two famous paintings, I remember, the blue boy, the guy– I have to find them for you I do not know what they are but you know every American home has them. Like some kind of you know, they were fake and you call two things and it is interesting do you know this story about when all the men were gone this book– 55:30 AD: Yes, yes. 55:32 CA: So, my grandparents had a radio on Clinton Street and were referencing this book. So, this book I actually gave to an alumni era but those are reference to my family– 55:49 AD: Who is the author? Do you know the author? 55:51 CA: Yes, Alexi is very close with the guy Ron Capalaces. 55:54 AD: Really? 55:55 CA: He is– this is fascinating. Have you read this book? 55:58 AD: No, I have not. 55:59 CA: So, I am– these are my campus copies but Alexi will give you this book to read we have a few copies at home so you can read it. And it is all about growing up in the first world and when this book came out I felt like I was getting a glimpse into my father’s growing up on Clinton Street, and it is a story about in the first world war I told you all the immigrants lived, and when the men went to war and what it was like for these young boys, and this is– so, I cannot remember what page it is on– it is more towards the beginning. It is very simple writing. It is not academic at all. It is a –he tells a great story– 56:56 AD: But that is a memoire. 56:57 CA: Yeah. 56:57 AD: Yeah, I love that kind of work. 57:01 CA: On the street the native languages are various first worlders filled the shops, grocery stores and bars. From Slovak and Polish to Russian Lithuanian blah blah blah. There is a reference of them going into the Abashian’s apartment on Clinton Street and listening to the radio– 57:20 AD: That is your– 57:21 CA: That is my father’s– 57:26 AD: House? 57:27 CA: Yeah, it was the apartment that he was born on Clinton Street– 57:30 AD: Wow! 57:30 CA: And it was interesting they were so poor but they had a radio, you know. 57:34 AD: Wow! Yeah. 57:38 CA: There is a reference to it here. Alexi can tell you everything about it and he will loan you a copy, the book it is very fascinating. But it is not a lot about Armenians– but it is only references. 57:52 AD: Probably we have it in special collections, if it is local history– 57:54 CA: Right you might– 57:58 AD: Yeah, I can just grab it from the stacks and look at it. So, who is this Ronald? 58:04 CA: Ron Capalaces, he was a guy who is younger than my father but he lives in North Caroline now and he just told his story of his childhood. I mean he had a different career. He was not a writer. This would have been the last ten years. 58:23 AD: He’s just retired? 58:24 CA: Yeah, and decided he wanted to tell the story and it is a fascinating– and I give this as gifts to all alumni graduates where an eight years old who grew up in the first world and who are so moved emotionally moved by it they live all over the country you know and they give us money to support, you know, alumni and support the campus so we give those to them. 58:51 AD: Oh, yeah. So, do you cook Armenian food? 58:54 CA: So, one staple that we cook all of the time is Armenian rice pilaf and I do it because I like it but Alexi loves it and he wants it when he is not eating potatoes because he is Russian. [laughs] He eats potatoes all the time. He loves pilaf. So, it is the one staple, and we do– the only time I cook Armenian food is when we get together as a family. We make shish kebab. We do the köfte, fasulye is– my sister is an expert in it. We do this, sarma, dolma. We also– my family and I am not sure it was really my grandmother would make matsun on the counter, the yogurt. So, this was an interesting thing is that she came with a jar of starter, you know how when you make yogurt, you use the pre– and she in her entire life made matsun with the starter that came and it was this– so she brought it with her. It was like bringing a piece of her family and she gave some to my mother and my mother would make it and then you know put it and scald the milk put the starter in it, put on the counter. My grandmother would put her sweater around the bowl, wrap it with a towel and then put a sweater and button the sweater up. It was a very fascinating thing and would sit on the counter. So, I eat a lot of plain yogurt. 1:00:36 AD: Me too. 1:00:36 CA: We do, because we were raised on it. So that is one staple. That and pilaf are regular staples in my diet. 1:00:45 AD: And it is very digestive, if you have like a bad stomach– 1:00:48 CA: I do actually– I do. 1:00:49 AD: Yeah, that is the way to go. Oh, so that is interesting. So, who taught you how to cook Armenian food? 1:00:55 CA: So, my grandmother taught my mother and my mother taught me and my aunts, you know, when get together in the family groups. We had so many more get together. My father and his siblings would all get together at least once to twice a year in Binghamton and all the kids would come and all my cousins and it would be all Armenian food. So– 1:01:24 AD: And çörek right? 1:01:27 CA: Right. She did not make that too much, she made some other things. Some of the stuff I have because of the Armenian Church, you know they’ve sales, you know they have the– but my grandmother– one of my cousins put together some recipes from my grandmother’s, you know, how they made, you know, it was interesting because it was not measure, you know, he was like [making a sound] you do this [making a sound] you know, and she would say get this much– this was not really– but different kind of breads and rolls and different, you know, things but– so– but we do not do it often enough, you know, we do like once a year when we get together in the summer and we make everything but– 1:02:12 AD: So, have you ever wondered like where your ancestor came from? Did you–like–did you want to go back and see? After it is very safe right now? 1:02:28 CA: You know– yeah, I mean right now, I would not but there was a time in my life like I did. I mean my aunt Sarah the oldest did a lot of travel in Lebanon, and you know, the artist Guiragossian? 1:02:47 AD: Uh-huh? 1:02:48 CA: My aunt was close with him. I do not know, but my sister has some very big valuable Guiragossian pieces that were my aunt’s. And one when he painted of her. I do not know what the relationship there was but you know– 1:03:14 AD: Artists, you never know right? 1:03:15 CA: Yeah, you know. But she spent a lot of time with him like in France and you know it is just something just made me think of that, but my aunt spent a lot of time and my uncle did a lot, the physicist, did a lot with sharing with us about his travel to Yerevan, he was helping them with some physicist related things or super some kind of collider thing to help stir the Armenian economy with technical things. And so, he Hovnanian actually to as he who travelled with there, and they Hovnanian supported all of kind things like orphanages and schools and everything and then my uncle also did a lot of that. And I cannot remember the relationship that we have a relation to previous Armenian president; my family, I do not know what the relationship is, it may be in that video but so it is another interesting story. 1:04:29 AD: Yeah, that is interesting. I think Yerevan is okay to travel. 1:04:34 CA: Yeah, actually my niece went there with her friends. She is very connected with her Armenian heritage. She is also gay. She is– but she speaks Armenian. They went to Armenian school, you know, in Long Island up to six grade but she went and she– they had a horrible experience because she got sick and the environment and the town in which they went, and she had to go to the hospital because she got, you know, like a belly bug and she needed to get some IV but it was very primitive and she had a horrible experience but– and her partner is Armenian. 1:05:17 AD: From the US. 1:05:18 CA: So, she– her parents are from, yes, she is from LA area but her parents are first generation– maybe they lived in Armenia, might’ve been part of the Los Angeles settlement but they would probably love to talk to you and they are young. They are very involved with the gay Armenian network. 1:05:42 AD: It does not matter– I would love to! 1:05:45 CA: They are young people. So, I mean they are in their thirties and very well-connected. 1:05:50 AD: I mean the thing is this project is not–it is like really third, fourth generation. So, like how– you know, how it was like growing up here what stayed, what did not stay. So, language is the very first thing is out of the picture, not just for Armenian community, for every immigrant communities. The very first thing people lose is the language. 1:06:20 CA: Now, Lata grew up speaking Armenian and her parents speak it. So, she is extremely fluent. 1:06:28 AD: But that is like one special case, and so that would be great if she would talk to me– even you know we can do skype interview. I do a lot of skype interviews. So, they need to like go anywhere, or we can just talk on skype. 1:06:45 CA: They would love to talk to you about it. 1:06:47 AD: That would be great. 1:06:50 CA: It is interesting that they are– of their generation– our children’s generation– they are the most connected. 1:06:58 AD: That is like really interesting. 1:07:01 CA: Her mother has not connected really but she is. 1:07:05 AD: So that is interesting like how it skipped a generation and the started again. So that– I would love to talk to her if she wants– 1:07:12 CA: She would absolutely want to talk to you. She just got back from the Washington march. She is out of her mind crazy. She is so upset. She cannot even speak. She is like, you know, she is not speaking to her father right now. 1:07:28 AD: Wow. 1:07:30 CA: It is that bad. Yeah. 1:07:32 AD: So, what happened to your parents? So, they got divorced, are they– is anyone alive? 1:07:37 CA: No, they are both dead. So, my parents got divorced when I had gone away to school and– 1:07:46 AD: Where did you go to school? 1:07:47 CA: So, I went away in my high school–senior of high school to a private college preparatory school in New Hampshire. And then I went to Hartwick College for two years and then I got sick, I actually came home. I had gotten sick. I have a Crohn’s disease, it is a bowel disease, so I ended up coming home because I had a major surgery and I withdrew from school and then I finished one class at a time in Binghamton and I worked in my father’s business. I worked with him. 1:08:20 AD: I see. 1:08:21 CA: So, my parents got divorced and then my father remarried a third time– a woman– 1:08:32 AD: Another non-Armenian? 1:08:33 CA: Non-Armenian. They got whiter by the minute they got white WASPY southern this last one was more Southern and she– they did not stay together but so it is an interesting story but, so yeah, they divorced and my mother died in two thousand and two. Actually, right before I met Alexi she died. She had lung cancer and she died. She was sixty-six, young. 1:09:06 AD: Very young. 1:09:07 CA: Yeah, young and my father had, he died at eighty-two, six years ago, in Florida. So, it has been a big that was difficult, oh, because Alexi was very close with my father. 1:09:25 AD: Oh, really! 1:09:26 CA: He does not have an overly close relationship with his father but he is getting there now, you know, because his mother raised him. His parents split when he was two. So, he was– he became very attached to my father. And spent summers with him, at the lake house and you know, just a very, very good relationship. So, we have in the last six years now, since he has been gone, it has been very– it is hard, you know. 1:10:01 AD: Oh, yeah, I can imagine. So, you were really close to your father? 1:10:06 CA: Yes, yes, I was close to both of my parents, very close. So– 1:10:13 AD: Yeah, that must be sad. 1:10:15 CA: It is hard because something happens– are your parents– either of your parents living? 1:10:21 AD: My father died when I was seven years old, yeah but thank God my mom is still with us knock on wood so– yeah so, she is eighty-two years old and so that is the reason I go to Turkey every summer and then my daughter, also, she loves spending time with her. So, every summer we go there and always kind of like so she is, I mean she is like waiting for us to arrive and it was sad to leave her behind because– 1:10:55 CA: She does not want to come? 1:10:59 AD: She came when my daughter was born to help me and– but, you know, when you are old, although, a lot of her friends are dead now, but still it is her own environment– 1:11:13 CA: Well, Alexi’s mother came here last year and it did not work. 1:11:18 AD: Did she go back? 1:11:19 CA: Yeah. She did and she said Russia might be terrible but it is all I know–you know there is a lot of complicated factors but it is–there is a guy actually he is married to the daughter of one of my neighbors and he taught here, he is math. And he is Turkish and his mother will not come here, and she is very old and he travels and she will not come here and we were having this conversation– 1:11:51 AD: Someone from Turkey teaches math here– 1:11:57 CA: Right, he just retired but he is, he is in Binghamton. Yeah, he lives in Binghamton and his wife is Italian, married to Italian. They grew up in Australia interestingly enough but– 1:12:09 AD: Okay, so a lot of Turkish people migrated to Australia like after they stopped going Germany they started to go to Australia. You know Australia takes a lot of immigrants, a lot of Greeks, I think more Greeks went to Australia than Turks. So, there are some Kurds too. So apparently, his family migrated to– 1:12:35 CA: Well, actually his mother still lives in Turkey. She lives in the South in a beautiful like almost tropical beautiful area– 1:12:43 AD: Mersin probably. 1:12:44 CA: Yeah, so she still lives there but his wife’s–his wife was born there they live in Binghamton but Tony is Italian but the Italians settled in Australia, I do not know how the whole thing worked out. 1:13:03 AD: A lot of Italian– so he did not settle in–his family did not settle in Australia. I know there are a lot of Greeks, Italians, and Turks migrated there because they were taking all these immigrants in the sixties. So, what is his name? 1:13:18 CA: I cannot remember his name but her father’s name is Marcello. I can find out. I can find out who he is. 1:13:24 AD: No that is okay. I am not very connected with Turkish community. I mean, I never even knew there was a Turkish professor here teaching math, I had no idea. 1:13:42 CA: Yeah and he was here a lot of years he just retired because I talked to him this fall when he was across the street visiting the– so– I have to go to the ladies’ room. 1:13:54 AD: Yeah, yeah. No that is fine! I think that is it. We really covered it all. 1:13:56 CA: Thank you. 1:14:00 AD: Well, thank you so much and then I will just end this. Let me just stop it. (End of Recording) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Date of Interview 11/4/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur de Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jacqueline Kachadourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 59:11 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Jackie is a student at Binghamton University, double majoring in studio art and theatre with concentrations in painting and costume design. She is active in her local community and is very passionate about her family's history with Armenia. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Jackie is a student at Binghamton University, double majoring in Studio Art and Theatre with concentrations in Painting and Costume Design. She is active in her local community and is very passionate about her family's history with Armenia. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Armenia; Lebanon; Montreal; church; genocide; identity; traditions; Sunday school; death march; Armenian dance; Christmas; religion; food; Mount Ararat; literature; politics; diaspora&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Armenia; Lebanon; Montreal; Church; Genocide; Identity; Traditions; Sunday school; Armenian dance; Christmas; Religion; Food; Mount Ararat; Literature; Politics; Diaspora.</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Jackie Kachadourian Interviewed by: Aynur de Rouen; Marwan Tawfiq Transcriber: Marwan Tawfiq Date of interview: 4 November 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 AD: Okay, so today is November 4, 2016, and I am here with Marwan Tawfiq, and we are interviewing with Jackie Kachadourian. Okay, so Jackie could you please give us your full name? 0:24 JK: My full name is Jacqueline Nora Kachadourian. 0:27 AD: Okay, and can you tell us when and where you were born? 0:33 JK: I was born on July 16, 1997. I am from¬¬– I was born in Johnson City, New York. 0:42 AD: At Wilson Hospital? 0:43 JK: Yes. 0:44 AD: Okay, so why do not you give us some information about your family? 0:53 JK: Okay, so on my mom’s side– both my parents are 100 percent Armenian which makes me 100 percent Armenian. On my mom’s side, she was born in Lebanon and her father was born in Antep, Turkey. And her mother was born in Lebanon to my grandfather and my grandmother. And on my dad’s side they were all from Armenia, they had to leave during the genocide and they had to go through Cuba, I believe, to come to the US. But I am more familiar with my mother’s side of the family rather than my dad’s side. And my mom ended up in Lebanon and then she moved to Montreal during the civil war because it was too much. And my dad has always lived in Binghamton, New York. So– 1:47 AD: So your dad was born and raised in Binghamton? 1:51 JK: Yes. 1:52 AD: Okay, so your mom was born in, what ̶ Beirut? 1:55 JK: Yes, Beirut. 1:56 AD: Beirut. So, when did she move to Montreal? 2:00 JK: She moved when she was a teenager around like twelve or thirteen I believe. Her and mother and her father, so my grandmother and grandfather, they all lived in Beirut, my grandfather had a textile factory. So they all stayed there. And on my mom’s side– she has four other siblings. So, all they left first and they got sponsored by one of our family members to go to Montreal and so they went first and then they left my mom and my grandmother and my grandfather and they came afterwards. So– 2:45 AD: I see. So, you still have family living in Lebanon? 2:49 JK: Yes, actually my– one of my mom’s aunts she just left to go back to Lebanon. So now I have two great aunts still in Lebanon. 3:00 AD: They live in Beirut still? 3:02 JK: I believe so. I have to check. 3:04 AD: They are in Lebanon and you are not sure if it is Beirut or not. So, what is the language, I know you will interview with your mother, you can ask her that, but what is the languages in your household–which language do you guys speak? 3:21 JK: We speak English but when my mom is talking on the phone with her family she speaks Armenian so I pick up a few words here and there and then when my grandmother was still alive she, when we were little, she spoke Armenian to us, she only spoke Armenian to us, and we were out and about like in a store or something if my mom wants to say something she would say it in Armenian so other people do not understand which is funny. So I still understand it I just have a harder time speaking it rather than hearing it. 4:00 AD: Okay, so how about your dad? 4:02 JK: He speaks Armenian but he does not write it, but my mom can write it. 4:05 AD: Okay, so did your mom go to Armenian school in Beirut? 4:10 JK: I do not think she went to Armenian school, I do not know but she learned Armenian first and then in school she learnt– She learnt Turkish through her family at home because if they did not want to say something– the parents– they spoke in Turkish so they do not understand but they ended up learning it. And then in school she learnt French, English and Arabic because it was Arabic was, in Lebanon you have to learn Arabic– 4:43 AD: And French also a mandatory language especially for certain class of people at that time. So, but you speak English at home? 4:55 JK: Yeah. 4:56 AD: How about your parents? How do they communicate? 5:00 JK: I would say seventy percent English, thirty percent Armenian, so like, if my parents want to say something in Armenian then they do not want us to understand, they say it in Armenian but like I can pick up few words, and it might not be the direct translation but I like can kinda get a just of it but my younger brother he does not understand any of it, he understand like one or two words maybe, and my sister, she understands more of it. 5:30 AD: So, how many siblings your mother has? 5:33 JK: She has four other siblings. So she has an older sister an older– three older brothers and she is the last one. 5:43 AD: Okay. And they all live in Montreal? 5:47 JK: No, one lives in France and he is like, he helps with the University of– like looking at different energy resources. He used to own a vineyard and now he does research. Yeah. 6:01 AD: Oh, where does he live in France? 6:04 JK: He lives in the South part of France; I do not know the exact city. But he– when he was in Lebanon he got a scholarship to go to study in France at a University and he did that and then he stayed there. 6:18 AD: You never visited him in France? 6:19 JK: No, my sister did, I was not born yet and I never had a chance. 6:23 AD: So, he does not come here? 6:25 JK: He goes to Montreal. I think he has only been to the United States like our area few times. 6:30 AD: So, you are not very close to him? 6:34 JK: Not as close as my other aunts and uncles. 6:37 AD: So, where are the other aunts and uncles? 6:41 JK: Well, my aunt lives in Montreal, so does my uncle and one uncle actually passed away a few years ago. He lived in Montreal as well. So they all lived like around fifteen minutes away from each other. 6:54 AD: So how did your mother make it to Binghamton, then? 6:57 JK: Well, my grandfather on my mom’s side, his sister came to North New Jersey, instead of going to Montreal and so she visited some of her cousins and stuff and they were both, my dad was in north Jersey too at an Armenian Church and it was like after the Church they have like dinner service and so both of them were there and they actually sat at the same table and they met, and– 7:28 AD: And they fell in love– 7:30 JK: Yeah, I guess so. [laughs] 7:34 AD: So, does your mom work? 7:38 JK: She used to work with my dad– help out with– because he used to have a law firm and now he works with the Broome County like law department, I do not know with family court. So now he does not have his own law office anymore but she used to work with that and they also, they had like stocks and stuff, so but now she just not really– 8:02 AD: She is not working. How old is she? 8:04 JK: She is fifty-three. She was born in 1964. 8:13 AD: My age, she is one year younger than me. 8:15 JK: Okay. 8:15 AD: Okay. All right. What is her education? What did she study? 8:21 JK: She studied Economics or Accounting in the University of Montreal, I believe, and she like worked at car dealerships and did the accounting for that like paperwork and finance and then when she came here it was different for her so, it is hard– 8:39 AD: Oh, isn’t that different for all of us. So, and your father went to school? 8:46 JK: Yeah, he went to Binghamton University and then for his law degree he went to Syracuse. 8:52 AD: Okay, so he is a lawyer? 8:55 JK: Yes. 8:56 AD: And, now tell me about your siblings. 9:00 JK: I have an older sister, she goes to Binghamton University as well, and she is a Psychology major with a Chemistry minor and she is a senior, she is like– she is twenty-two years old and my other younger brother, and he is at Vestal Middle School, and I believe he is in eighth grade, so. 9:24 AD: You believe. 9:27 JK: I believe so [laughs], he is twelve years old, or no he is thirteen. 9:34 AD: [laughs] Okay, so and you go to Binghamton University as well? 9:39 JK: Yes. 9:39 AD: And studying? 9:40 JK: I am double major studying in Studio Art, the concentration and Painting and the Theatre with the concentration and Costume Design. 9:48 AD: But you also mentioned something about Physics? 9:50 JK: Yes, I am very interested in minoring in Physics. I want to take a lot of classes but hopefully it will add up to a minor but I am not sure with all the other classes I have but hopefully it works out. 10:04 AD: Okay, so, now tell me about growing up, like when your great aunt especially when you see them or your family, do you hear stories about the past? 10:23 JK: Yes, of course, especially when I was little they used to tell stories and even now like as you are getting more– understanding more idea of what was going on but like in Montreal whenever we go and visit them, they usually try to inform us of what happened and like what the family went through. For example on my dad’s side one of my aunts she was telling me that like this is one of my great aunts, she was telling me how she had to leave everything of her; birth certificate and everything like no clothes no nothing and she could not– she does not– she did not remember how old she was because they do not have a birth certificate, so it is really interesting. 11:12 AD: I see. So do you remember any stories? 11:16 JK: Yeah, actually on my mom’s side, my grandfather he was born I believe in 1909 or sometime before the genocide occurred and he remembered walking, he had to do the march– walk and he was in Turkey which was like near Armenia so they had to leave and they walked and she remembered– he remembered that her mother died–his mother died during the walk and it was just him and his father, but– and his other siblings. Also there was a lot of Turkish people obviously, some, like, our neighbors, their neighbors were Turkish, some would helped them which was really interesting some would not help which is obvious, for obvious reasons but it is nice to see that some obviously did help them try and escape and things like that, then on my mom’s side, her– I believe– yeah her father or someone worked for the Army so they got to deceive them so they did not– they were not killed because they were Armenians, so they worked for them to– so would not die. 12:43 AD: I see. I see. So, when did you– so you were always aware of being Armenian growing up and what did it represent to you? 12:59 JK: It represented strong identity. I always thought– from a young age my mom informed me about being Armenian and things like that so when I was like in elementary school remember doing projects like about our heritage. People would be like what is Armenian. They really did not know what it was except for like European countries and things like that. That was all they really came in contact with but like I did projects like Armenian Genocide and so from a young age I was very informed about who I was and what, where I came from. 13:35 AD: Okay. So, what are the things like your mom did in your house that represents Armenian heritage? 13:48 JK: She would show me books and stuff like that obviously not war books but we used to go to church, Sunday school when we were little. My grandmother she was a big influence too, told us about like stories of Armenian and like reading the bible in Armenian– there is Armenian bible– ood is a big part of it, we would help her make food and stuff so, over all– 14:23 AD: Like any, like– what is it– crafts or I do not know decorations pieces or anything? 14:33 JK: Well my grandmother she knew how to sew, so she would show us how to knit and sew, and she would knit us things, and I learned how to knit and sew from her like various not in great detail but I learnt some techniques and then I remember during Sunday school I would do like drawings of Armenia like Armenian flags. And also like American flags too, some American as well. But I– when I was little I always knew I was Armenian and I always a hundred percent Armenian, I do not know from a very young age. 15:10 AD: Okay, so is there an Armenian community that your family are part of it here? 15:13 JK: There is but is very, the community here is very old, it is getting older and there is not as much people my age, but I feel like now there is going to be a younger generation like so my brother– younger brother’s age like around there. But we used to all go to Armenian Church and everything, Sunday school but I feel like as time went on, people started to leave and like move away to other places because there is not much of an Armenian culture here in Binghamton. So it is very hard to find but in Montreal there is so much more vibrancy of Armenian culture which is really interesting, so. 16:08 AD: Yeah, so the people who live here are mostly older people. 16:12 JK: Yeah, like my family they are very old and they are a older generation so, I think that it had influence on me though because they are very strict and very strong about their Armenian heritage, so kind of flowed on me but there was a few kids here and there but not too many. 16:38 AD: Not too many. So, your dad and your mother met at the church and they married, so do your parents tell you that they would like to see you marrying an Armenian boy or stuff like that? 16:57 JK: Yeah, recently my dad, because my sister she is like I am not going find any Armenian boys here [laughs] my age and he said– she asked him do I have to marry an Armenian, she was like joking around–he was like well I married an Armenian because my family died for– the Armenians died to survive their culture and their heritage so it is the right thing to do because of his– the relatives– and they want me to marry an Armenian, I want to marry an Armenian, I think that would be interesting but like I am not going to force myself to marry an Armenian if I do not like them. I do not know– It is a factor but it is not a factor so. I would like to marry an Armenian. 17:44 AD: You would like to marry an Armenian in order to continue? 17:53 JK: Yeah. 17:53 AD: Okay. What else? Do you have anything? 17:58 MT: So, do you particularly remember anything or did they tell you anything about the genocide like your grandparents? 18:08 JK: My grandfather he died before I was born and then my grandmother on my mom’s side she died in two thousand four so I was quite young but I remember just they would tell me like stories that were really, I do not know very– like the death march they used to talk about that and how they would not get– I remember one of my great aunts they would tell me how they would throw bread at us or at them, their family and they would not–they would have been starving themselves, they did not have anything, they had to leave all their stuff and, yeah I have to–I do not really talk about it with my– on my dad’s side, I have to ask more about it and I believe they came through Cuba and then came up here but– 19:04 MT: So has your family visited Armenia? 19:07 JK: No. Most of my family on my mom’s side has been to Armenia and then on my dad’s side too, as well they went to Armenia few years ago I believe, like with the church. We never went, I do not think my– I think my dad was too nervous because of the times and like what was going on– it is the Middle East. They do not want to go, but I really want to go. I want to go and help out and do what I can and learn about the culture, I want to go a lot of times hopefully. 19:39 AD: Yes, but did anyone, anybody go back to Antep? 19:44 JK: Antep, no. 19:46 AD: Because that is the home town, right? 19:48 JK: Yeah. I do not think they would, because now it is part of Turkey. 19:51 AD: It is. 19:52 JK: So, I believe before that was maybe part of Armenia, I am not sure. 19:57 AD: No, it was Ottoman Empire. 19:58 JK: Oh, yeah. 20:00 AD: There was no Turkish Republic. 20:02 JK: Yeah. 20:02 AD: So, the massacre happened actually during Ottoman Empire, so that was like toward the end, and it was part of the Ottoman Empire, all these areas, that massacre took place. So, nobody went back to Antep? 20:28 JK: No, I do not think so. I would have to ask, but I do not believe so. 20:33 AD: So, and then like the family does not know if anybody left behind? 20:40 JK: I am not sure, I would have to ask. I know just my grandfather’s mother she died during the walk and the march. 20:52 AD: I mean alive, not dead. 20:55 JK: Okay. I have no idea I would have to ask but not sure, maybe like from the orphanages or something. 21:00 AD: Yeah. Or maybe they were able to hide or runaway and you know left the East, maybe went to the Western part of the country. I do not know, I mean so many things I am sure happened, different survival tactics. 21:24 JK: Yeah, survival instinct, you have to kick in. 21:28 AD: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So, were you like told like tales or stories, like little kids, like little Armenian, you know, fairy tale-type of thing or heroic stories and stuff like that, or like maybe little games? 21:32 JK: Yeah, I was taught some games in Armenian but– 21:34 AD: Like your grandmother, I mean did she–like for example my mother teaches things to my daughter and it is like, you know her generation and or like little songs like do you know any little kids’ song? 22:19 JK: I do not know it by heart, but I remember there is a song about like a bird flying– 22:26 AD: Can you sing it? [laughter] 23:31 MT: How often does the Armenian community meet and get together? 22:40 JK: In Binghamton? 22:41 MT: Yeah, because I know in the past there were regular meetings in church or for holidays– is that still happening? 22:48 JK: Well right now, there is not full-time priest, so I believe they do services every few weeks or so–something because the priest we had a few years ago, he went to North of Jersey and now he works–does it there. But a few– this is like maybe five or ten years ago, not that long, probably five years ago–every year we used to have an Armenian dance in like November, now they stopped doing that but that was really fun to get the community all together we served Armenian food, Armenian dances– 23:24 AD: Oh, I wish that was still continuing. 23:27 JK: One thing I learned is the Armenian dancing. I learnt a few steps– because there is different songs that go with different dances and that was really fun to learn and we do it now during weddings and things like that which is really nice, which is, but my cousin she actually takes classes in Armenian dancing in Montreal. 23:47 AD: Oh, in Montreal– here I am like– Go ahead. 23:55 JK: But in the past when I was younger we used to go to our Armenian church every Sunday and like, there was Sunday School, I am not sure if they still have Sunday School. I remember learning some of Armenian Alphabet through that but like I do not remember it anymore, but I learnt a lot of words– like we spoke like tried to learn the language as young kids and there would always be someone teaching it. I believe my dad’s aunt would help teach it and then another lady, as well, too, she would help. 24:33 MT: So why did not your mother or father try to teach you Armenian? 24:42 JK: After I was older there was not much of a Sunday School because people left and there was not as many kids probably like less than ten of us or something maybe five or something, but I am not sure why. I think because my dad did not write Armenian, he did not– it was kind of hard and once my grandmother she died it was hard for my mom because my grandmother really helped me and my sister– that is why my sister knows the most because she was with my grandmother the most and she would learn from her, and that is how we would learn but after that we kind of stopped but I am trying to– I really want to get back in to it. I really want to learn Armenian. And I think that would really be helpful, like learn it–like how to write and stuff like that. 25:48 AD: What are the days the Armenian community here observes like, you mentioned the dance that triggered my mind. So, what else? 25:50 JK: Actually we have our own Armenian Christmas. I believe it is January 4th or January 6th, one of those days. And we like to celebrate and go to the Church and have service and then we are very big on Easter. We have different Armenian dishes, yeah. 26:10 AD: I know from Turkey, yeah? 26:13 JK: Yeah. So we have– like we paint eggs, we play the game, I do not know if you know, we crack the eggs– 26:16 MT: Do you paint like red or different colors? 26:18 JK: Different colors, I know there is a thing where you paint red but we do not– I do not remember doing that as a kid. 26:24 MT: So, you do the American way? 26:26 JK: Yeah, I guess so. 26:28 AD: Yeah, in Turkey all of– I mean that to me, red eggs, symbolizes Easter to me. 26:35 JK: Yeah. 26:36 AD: I saw the different colors when I came here because I thought Easter eggs should be red that is the image in my head. So, Easter and is there any other? 26:50 JK: I do not think so. We have a– it is not really a holiday but we have a picnic in September for the Binghamton Community, that they have like at the end of the summer I guess. And there is food, Armenian food, and everything that served. So, that is– we used to go that when we were little as well, which was fun. 27:16 AD: You do not go anymore? 27:18 JK: No, like now I am working after work during the Sunday, so it is hard to go to it, especially as you get older. I wish I could. I want to go. So, I know there is another Armenian holiday during the first half the year. My cousin, she goes to Armenian school and she tells me about it how she gets off on those days, but I have to ask her. Oh, and then obviously the Armenian Genocide, April 24th, that is of course we remember that. 27:55 AD: Is there anything going on during that day here? Do they commemorate? 28:02 JK: Yeah, we actually have a statue, it is a little kind of like a– looks like a tomb stone, but it is a square and it says we remember the Armenian Genocide. It is right as you cross the Binghamton Bridge like near the Arena in Binghamton, and I remember for the hundredth anniversary, they do this every year, but for the hundredth one like the Mayor came and they just– we have a speaker and they pray and then they talk about what happened. I remember going to it a lot when I was younger but there is usually chairs or tents, usually somebody speaks, I remember always rains during that day, like every year I remember it always rains, I do not know. 28:50 AD: Yeah, to me when I hear is like religion is a big factor in identity of Armenian community, am I right. Am I reading this correctly? 28:58 JK: Yes, and my parents are very like strict on the– especially my mom, she prays and things like that. She loves going to church when she can. So it is a huge factor in the culture and I believe it is. 29:20 AD: Yeah, so the– we can say religion, the food, and maybe dance these are like the main ingredients for the existing Armenian identity? 29:35 JK: Also, I would say there is a lot of craftsmanship like carpets in my house there is all like Armenian carpets everywhere, crosses obviously, we have our own Armenian cross, it is not the same as like Catholics or Protestant. 29:55 AD: Yeah, Gregorian. So like when your friends came to your house, well obviously since there are not so many Armenians, I assume you did not have many Armenian friends that you hang out with, right? 29:58 JK: Yeah of course. 29:59 AD: So when they came to your house, did they say oh, this is different or I mean did you hear any comments? 30:21 JK: Not, really because being– ike from my dad’s from Binghamton is very Americanized where my mom is very Armenian so it is kind of a good mixture. So, I would say the one differences the food is really interesting. Now, my friends in college they love coming over to my house and eating like the humus, tabbouleh, cheese börek, just a lot of Armenian food they love it. As a younger– as– like I remember having birthday parties when I was young. There would always– it would always like be Americanized, not too much Armenian stuff going on, but I would always tell my friends that I was 100 percent Armenian, they would be like; you have to be a different kind, like you cannot be 100 percent of one kind, so like they really do not understand it, and it was hard for me to explain too, being so young like in elementary school or something like that, so 31:22 AD: Yeah. 31:23 JK: There is always like, what is that, they do not really know too much about it. 31:30 AD: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. 31:33 JK: But nowadays I think it is easier for people to understand and like especially being older people know what Armenia is, or at least what Turkey is least and I just say it is next to Armenia, so it gives them a good idea, the culture like what is going on, which is nice. 31:54 AD: Of course. 31:55 JK: Yeah. 31:59 AD: Go ahead. 32:00 MT: What does Mount Ararat represent to you? 32:02 JK: It represents– it is our Armenian unity I think, it is our culture, it represents our strength I believe, so like that is what I think. 32:19 MT: Did you hear about the mount from you parents? 32:24 JK: Yeah, I heard it from my mom especially there is a lot of– 32:31 MT: Paintings. 32:31 JK: Yeah, paintings, I was just saying paintings and we get like Armenian magazine like, calendars that have like pictures of Mount Ararat and like churches and you can see the church in relation to the mountains. So, it is very interesting and you can read like what it represents and it is kinda nice to know, so and the story is it used to be, this is what I– this is from like from stories it used to be on the Armenian side and when the Turks came they came and took that land, so now it is on the Turkish side, so like region-wise, so it is interesting. 33:17 AD: Kurds also– 33:18 MT: I always thought that it is in Kurdistan, because it is Eastern Turkey. 33:28 AD: Now, we are– look, Turk, Armenian and Kurds we are going to cut it in pieces and claim it. 33:34 MT: The reason because we have so many things like named after Mount Ararat, like one of the strongest sport clubs, so but lately, no, I thought it is not. 33:48 JK: No, it is interesting. 33:50 AD: Well it is still land– 33:51 MT: Because there are like Kurds in Armenian, there are a lot of Kurds, so, and the first magazines in Kurdish I think issued in Yerevan long ago like in the eighteenth century so– 34:08 AD: Well different ethnic groups lived in that region. So when one group came they did not just say, ‘oh you know what I am here, get out of here’ it was not like that so what people did, they just mingled and continued to live. So that was what happened but then, you know, it goes in different directions and then the politics get in to picture– 34:39 JK: And religion– I was going to say. 34:42 AD: Yeah, religion, but religion is still a very big factor in twenty first century. 34:47 MT: Of course. 34:48 AD: I mean would you think that would still continue? It is continuing ̶ 34:52 JK: I was going to say that Armenians were the first Christian culture they learnt from that so that was how it developed– which is really interesting. Armenian first country to develop Christianity– 35:09 MT: Like the first nation? 35:10 JK: Yeah first nation ̶ 35:11 AD: First nation, yeah. 35:12 JK: It is really interesting. 35:15 AD: yeah, and then it– I am not very knowledgeable about, you know, religious history, but it just took different and then– as I said politically whoever was dominant took over so in that case you know, Catholics they were politically dominant and then they took over and then the second strong one was the Orthodox, you know, Greece and you know, Russia that area, so then in that case the Gregorian group which is Armenians they became minority in Christianity as well. So it is yeah– 36:01 JK: Interesting. 36:02 AD: Yeah, it is, it is very interesting. 36:05 JK: That is why I think Armenians play– I think religion plays a big role in Armenian culture that is how I would think. 36:12 AD: Because of that, and also coming from Istanbul, and I did a research when I was a student, about Armenian Churches along the Bosphorus, and I went so many different– I do not remember how many. And people do not even know like this like really unique architecture and there are in Ottoman architecture very important Armenian architects. Actually the most famous architect in Ottoman architectural history is Sinan, architect Sinan, and he was Armenian. Nobody says that is, but he was. And then Kirkov, Garabet Kirkov, it is like so many Armenian architects that, it is like architecturally it is just very, very important names. 37:30 JK: Yeah, also when I was asking my mother about the last names you know how it means what you do. Kachadourian, I know you are interested about what it meant, it meant like the cross, the kept the cross or something, so like based on religion; Kachadour– so that is what it really means like the cross like grabbing it and keeping it, like catch it. And then on my mom’s side, Kabakyan that is, they were like squash and pumpkin– 38:02 AD: That is right, I told you that. 38:04 JK: Yeah you did tell me that. So I found that is really interesting. 38:08 AD: Because it is Turkish, I do not know, I say Turkish maybe it is Kurdish, I do not know but kabak either like squash ̶ Actually we have one word, both squash and then pumpkin you say kabak, like zucchini squash ̶ is it in Kurdish too? 38:26 MT: Yes, one word. 38:27 AD: Yes, kabak so, and here you have like all different ̶ so I am like which one is which, and kabak maybe they were like fruit ̶ I told you that maybe they were raising kabak or something, I do not know, and also in Eastern part of Turkey I know they also make like musical instruments and things like that from pumpkin– 38:56 JK: Oh, wow. 38:56 AD: Yeah, not that I am a musician but I know like a lot of things going on and “ian” [yan] is son of. I know that. So, it is like easy to catch that. 39:06 JK: To understand who they are and stuff. 39:14 AD: yeah, yeah exactly. So, any other questions? So now you know the questions you need to ask your mother. So she is probably going to give you more details and then you go. So what are the names of your family members, I am curious, like did they keep Armenian names or did they choose Western names? JK: Well, on my dad’s side his dad, his dad’s, my grandfather’s, name Harutun, my younger brother’s Henry Harutun, my grandmother is Victoria, I am not sure if that– I do not think that translates to Armenian. But, my grandfather his brothers and sisters, their named Arslanian which is Armenian, Louise, I think there is a translation for Armenian because my grandfather’s side, they are pretty much all Armenian and they like to keep the Armenian heritage basically. Aristaks, that is another great uncle of mine. On my mom’s side, Annie is my Aunt but her– she has another name that translates to Armenian, she goes by Annie but that is not her real name. 41:03 AD: I see. 41:06 JK: Yeah, and Edouard, he is another one. Madeline, I am not sure if that translates but Varoujan, Leon, Nora I am not sure where they got Nora that is my mom’s name. 41:17 MT: Nora is Arabic. 41:20 JK: Yeah, I do not know. 41:21 AD: Like from Noor. 41:23 JK: Noor is Armenian word, its means sweet. 41:27 MT: It means light, Noor means light. 41:29 JK: Oh light. 41:31 AD: In Arabic but in Armenian, maybe. 41:33 JK: Maybe, I thought it meant sweet; I have to ask her, I am not sure. 41:38 AD: Yeah, so your mom speaks Arabic as well. 41:41 JK: Yes she speaks Turkish, Armenian, Arabic, French and English and then my aunt, they were stuck in the house in Lebanon during the war, they could not do anything, this is after– like they could not go to school and stuff so they were stuck in their house. And they could only eat like bread, they did not have meat. So my aunt she read all these books, so she knew Spanish and Italian as well so she knows seven languages which is really interesting. 42:11 AD: Wow, so when your mom speaks does she have an accent? 42:18 JK: I got used to it, she does, I can tell she does. My friends know she has an accent. Especially when she speaks English she is not the best at it, since it is one of the later languages she did learn. 42:32 AD: So she speaks like me, with an accent. 42:34 JK: Yeah. 42:35 AD: Okay, so I did not listen to the interview Marwan transcribed your interview from Montreal. But he was just trying to figure out where the interview was, so I heard very short ̶ brief like a couple of words and I was like who is this Turkish interview, she sounded Turkish to me, whoever you were talking to, who was that? 43:02 JK: That was my mom’s aunt. 43:04 AD: Like her accent, speaking English sounded like a Turkish speaker is speaking English, to me. So what does she speak? 43:14 JK: She can speak Armenian, Turkish and she speaks English but it is hard for like the big words I was saying she did not understand that why my second or third cousin was there speaking Armenian trying to translate it because sometimes she would not understand what I was trying to ask. 43:30 AD: Yeah but her English, her accent in English sounded like Turkish speaker too. 43:34 JK: Okay yeah. 43:35 AD: Okay. 43:36 JK: It is very interesting. 43:38 AD: Yeah, yeah absolutely. So but your dad has no accent what so ever? 43:44 JK: No he is from– he is a Binghamton native. 43:49 AD: So, okay before we end, I did not ask so much about your father’s side. So who is here from your father’s side of the family, in town? 44:02 JK: Everyone so ̶ 44:03 AD: But you said you are not so close to them. 44:07 JK: I am close to them but I, like, I find my mother’s side more interesting and more fun to be around. They are very– 44:17 AD: Americanized? 44:19 JK: Not actually not really, I do not think so, I think because they are– I do not have– my cousins do not live here from my dad’s side either, that it is hard really to connect with them because they are much older. I have my grandfather, Harutun, he is my dad’s dad, dad, yeah. Okay, and then he has two brothers and one sister, so one is Aristaks so he is general surgeon here, so he is still in Binghamton. Then Arslan[ian], he is very– they are–all of them have very strong Armenian culture, they go to church– 45:03 AD: So are you going to interview with all these people? 45:05 JK: Hopefully yes. Another one is Louise; that is their sister, so they all live here. 45:13 AD: So they all are well educated, I gather. 45:16 JK: Most of them yes. Especially the doctor, he went to Syracuse but they all went to Binghamton high school too, so they are from this area as well. 45:30 AD: Okay, tell your father convince them to interview with you. 45:35 JK: Yeah, I will. 45:36 AD: So, they all are like born and grew up here and, so your grandfather is still alive, your father’s father? 45:46 JK: Yes. 45:48 AD: So, how does he speak? Does he have an accent? 45:50 JK: No, because I believe because they were born here ̶ 45:53 AD: Oh, so that is like, so from your father’s side you are like third generation. 45:59 JK: Yeah. 46:00 AD: Oh, wow. 46:01 JK: I have to ask, I am not too familiar with them. 46:04 AD: If he was born here first, your father second, you third. 46:11 JK: I have to see though where they came from before that because that would be interesting. I know either on my grandmother’s side or my dad’s grandfather’s side, they came from through Cuba. 46:23 AD: Okay, now you have two tasks Jackie since we open all that up. You got to interview with your grandfather. 46:32 JK: Yeah, he actually, he has got really sick this past week which is interesting ̶ 46:39 AD: Well you got to talk to him. 46:41 JK: I know, before ̶ 46:43 AD: Please make the time. Please make the time. And talk to him because this is like a library. 46:50 JK: Exactly. 46:52 AD: It is about to burn, so you got to talk to him. Because it is very important, and so I think your first thing should be interviewing with your grandfather and then you can get all the news and it is not just important for the history of Armenian culture in Binghamton area or in the US but your family history too. So you will know all this and we are going to document it which is great! 47:29 MT: Jackie you mentioned a name Arslan, and you mentioned that your mother reads, right? That she reads Armenian? 47:36 JK: Yes. 47:37 MT: Okay does she read any, like, Armenian literature, novel or things like that? 47:42 JK: I am sure she did but in school, in Sunday school. We have Armenian Bible, she knows how to read it. 47:51 MT: How about other books? 47:54 JK: Oh, yes we have Armenian cook books, the magazines are Armenian, yeah. 47:59 MT: The reason I mentioned that because there is a novel it is written in poetry, it is like poem. The title is Prince Arslan, I assume it should be Armenian because the name is Armenian. But I read it in English, but it is very– 48:17 JK: I will ask about it. 48:19 MT: We have it in the Kurdish collection actually, but I read it when I was young, so it is really interesting this novel, it is written in poetry and it has been translated into Kurdish in poetry. 48:31 AD: Is it in Kurdish? 48:32 MT: Oh, we have it in Kurdish but I know the culture is not Kurdish– 48:34 AD: I mean we have it in Kurdish. 48:36 MT: Yes, we have it in Kurdish. 48:38 AD: So, we need to look into that to see if there is like an Armenian copy. Let us check and see if there is. 48:47 MT: It is very famous, Prince Arslan. I never knew that it might be Armenian but I know from the names like Faruk, do you have Faruk as a name? 49:02 AD: Faruk ̶ 49:03 MT: No, it is girl’s name, Faruk Laqaa or something like that. 49:10 JK: I will have to ask, does not sound like– nobody in my family but maybe. 49:15 MT: I mean the name sounds like Armenian– Yeah you should read that. 49:20 JK: I will ask. Maybe yeah. 49:34 AD: But what I know from Istanbul is like– really in Istanbul the Armenian community, my observation this is– the older generations they keep the traditional Armenian names, but like very good friend of mine, her name is Megi. I mean how Armenian that is! You know what I mean? So it is like even my generation, we are talking about fifty year old, so like, they tend to like get more Western names than–maybe at that time they were thinking oh, such boring names but I mean some still picks, you know–People go different things. They go back to original names and then they get tired of it, they pick different names so– 50:34 JK: I am not sure, even on my mom’s side there is some Armenian names ̶ 50:39 AD: Or then they have Armenian names but they have like these nicknames, Western names. 50:46 JK: Yeah, to assimilate it. 50:48 AD: You know what I mean? So that is also ̶ 50:51 MT: I think the old generation they’ve tried to keep the surname at least. Most of them they have the surname, yeah– it is dying out within the new generation as time passes. 51:09 JK: Yeah. 51:09 AD: What is the name of that Author? Prince what? 51:13 MT: Well Prince Arslan is the name of the book. 51:18 AD: Oh, the name of the book. Okay, but anyway, we will look at it. I am interested in looking at it. So, any questions, any more questions? 51:38 MT: If she wants to add something? 51:40 AD: Yeah, do you want to add anything that we forgot, you think that it is important? 51:48 MT: There are questions but they do not apply to her because she is young– 51:51 AD: –New generation. But you certainly can ask more question to your grandfather ̶ 52:03 MT: Do you know if your family, like your mother or father they were in like politics? Because there has been some politics going on in Binghamton community. 52:15 JK: My father, my dad he is very much into politics, because he works– 52:20 MT: There are like two different parties in Armenia. 52:23 AD: In Armenia, Armenian politics. 52:26 JK: My parents probably know more about it. My dad loves looking at what is going on in Armenia. There has always been a divide, even the language which is spoken; I know there is like a West side and the Eastern side. There is different words that they use, but it is like Armenian, they speak Armenian but they have different slang words and things like that and how it is spoken which is really interesting, so but they would know more– 52:55 MT: I think that Armenian diaspora; they speak Western Armenian or maybe Eastern? 53:01 JK: It depends on where you from I think– 53:03 MT: Yeah but the dialect that they speak here is not spoken anymore in Armenia, so the official language I think is Eastern Armenian and the Diaspora people they speak Western Armenian– 53:15 AD: Eastern Armenians are people from the former Soviet Union? 53:20 MT: Yeah. 53:21 AD: Yeah, so the Western Armenian it is like people left Ottoman Empire, or Turkey. So I think that makes– and to me it makes a lot of sense because one influenced by the Russian, the other one influenced by Turkish. So it happens a lot. 53:44 MT: Yeah, when people here go back to Armenia they have a hard time to understand the Eastern Armenian. 53:52 AD: It is a different dialect probably. 54:00 JK: Yeah. Even my mom’s side and my dad’s side, when my mom is talking to my grandfather and my grandmother they use different words for like çörek they call it with different word on my grandparent’s side which is interesting. 54:13 AD: Çörek? 54:14 JK: Yeah. 54:15 AD: I told you çörek. 54:16 JK: I love çörek. 54:17 MT: But you did not bring it. 54:19 AD: We will go visit your mom. 54:21 MT: You were supposed to get it from Turkey, from Istanbul–the original. 54:25 JK: That is my favorite. Wow, do you helva, have you heard of it? 54:32 MT: Do you pronounce– or maybe it has come from the Turkish– We say halwa, it is like you change the ‘WA’ sound to ‘V.’ 54:44 JK: Yeah, helva. 54:45 AD: I think that is like– let us put it that way, like Anatolian, let usnot just say just Turkish. So it is like that is the region. Regional affect I think. And I see that a lot with Kurdish culture too. Regional affect, so you have more Arabic influence and Kurds from Turkey have more Anatolian because that is the land, I mean that is the seasoning they use, you know, like all these ingredients, it is regional effect on people than ethnic. I mean it is similar but you see that I certainly like when I was processing the Kurdish collection, I could tell which piece of artifact came from Iraqi region or Iranian region or Turkish you know Anatolian region. I could easily tell because it is there, and there is nothing wrong with that because it is the region you know, same thing in this country. Cannot you tell the difference between Southern and Northern? 56:06 JK: Yeah. 56:06 AD: It affects. There is– you know, it certainly affects. You can tell the difference, so I think the words, the food everything. I mean Armenian food is–I read an article actually, somebody– because I am into food, I love food. So somebody, I wish I saved that article, did a research to see the difference between Armenian food that you can eat in Istanbul than in Yerevan. Like there is a difference. 56:52 JK: Wow. 56:53 AD: Yeah, I mean– when I read it I said wow, that is exactly supports my argument. I mean it is just as delicious but it is different. 57:06 JK: Different influences, yeah of course. It is interesting. 57:07 AD: When Armenians do this and that and then Armenians over there are cooking totally different– 57:17 JK: It is finally something totally different from us. 57:19 AD: Exactly. 57:20 JK: Because it is so Westernized. 57:23 AD: Yeah, there is this, okay, God I cannot think of– I, I did not get enough sleep– there is this appetizer, which is very, very famous in Armenia. So Armenian culture introduced to– especially for Istanbul cuisine. I do not want to say the whole Turkey, but in Istanbul because there is a great effect there. So you basically make a paste from chick peas– I am asking if you ever–s o and then you make this inside like with onion, and then you kind of topik, have you ever heard of that ̶ 58:10 JK: No, but it sounds like you are making humus. 58:14 AD: But it is not– I need to find the picture, and like that is like when you say what is the biggest influence– and especially like– 58:29 JK: And you know what, it is interesting as well, my friend from Binghamton University he was looking up Armenian food because he is really interested in food and he loves Armenian food, and he thought that there is a type of donut, but it is actually Russian. 58:47 AD: [laughs], so I am just proving with the– look at that! So– 58:54 JK: I have never seen that. I know this. 58:56 AD: That is lentil balls. 59:01 JK: We have that for Easter! 59:05 AD: Yeah, I think thank you Jackie for your time, thank you so much. So this is– (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jacqueline Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c019640a7ed14f92a2bad5bb3619d1eb.mp3 bc2c45b68614876f95eaec2028ab880e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/30/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Arda Haratunian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 23:19 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Arda is a member of the board of the AGBU. She earned her masters in Public Administration at NYU, and her Bachelor's at Queens College in NYC. She and her husband have two children, Kanar and Arman. &quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Arda Haratunian is a strategic communications advisor and educator. She is a member of the board of the AGBU (Armenian General Benevolent Union). Haratunian earned her BA in Communications and Political Science from Queens College and her MA in Public Administration from New York University. She and her husband live on Long Island, NY and have two children.<br /><br />&nbsp;</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Armenian genocide; Lebanon; gender roles; Church; culture; tradition; ACYOA; language; politics; activism; Armenian Language School; diaspora; AGBU&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15233,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Armenian genocide; Lebanon; gender roles; Church; culture; tradition; ACYOA; language; politics; activism; Armenian Language School; diaspora; AGBU</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Arda Haratunian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 30 March 2016 Interview Setting: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:06 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University Special Collection’s Library at Binghamton University working on the Armenian Oral History project. Would you please state your name, your birthday and where do you currently live for the record? 0:18 AH: Okay, Arda Haratunian, April 16, 1964. I live in Manhasset which is in Long Island. 0:25 GS: Where did you grow up? 0:26 AH: In Rego Park, Queens. 0:28 GS: Okay, can you tell me about your parents? 0:30 AH: My parents, okay, so my father who passed away thirty years ago this year emigrated from Jerusalem. He was born in Palestine, 1925. His father went there after the Armenian Genocide. So, my dad came here for school in the late fifties. My mom who is eighty years old, who also lives in Long Island came in the late 1950s as well on a scholarship at the New England Conservatory of Music. 1:04 GS: Where did she emigrate from? 1:05 AH: From Beirut. 1:06 GS: Okay. 1:07 AH: In Lebanon which is where her parents ended up after the Armenian Genocide. 1:11 GS: So, both your parents are ethnically Armenian? 1:13 AH: Correct, 100 percent. 1:15 GS: How would you identify yourself? 1:16 AH: Armenian slash American. 1:19 GS: Okay, so, what was the highest level of education that your parents achieved? 1:23 AH: My father was undergraduate; City College and my mother was a double masters. She did her undergraduate at American University of Beirut and she got two master’s degrees one in Education and one in Music from New England Conservatory. 1:36 GS: And what were their occupations? 1:38 AH: My father was ultimately started his own travel agency. So, he was a travel agent for decades and which is what he was doing when he passed away, and my mom became̶ She was a college teacher, she was a music teacher but she was also an administrator. So, she retired as an elementary school principal and a parochial school system probably about fourteen years ago now and she has worked part-time since then doing all sorts of cultural related activities and volunteering work. 2:13 GS: What were your parents’ roles in the household growing up? 2:16 AH: Both parents worked which is surprising at the time; you know other people did not have that. My father was very much a traditional male figure. He worked very long hours, travelled a lot and he dedicated the bulk of his time to the church and the community which we laugh about now but at the time was a bone of contention. He would surprise my mom with guests. Everything from the Catholicos of the Armenian Church with days’ notice to priests from Jerusalem who he was friend with all of them from his childhood to various community leaders; he probably brought someone home once a week for dinner. My mother worked full time when we were growing up. I mean I think probably part-time for a couple of years but full-time she was teacher, administrator, and she was very much the traditional housewife too. She made sure that we were well-fed, well-cared for, clean and everything. And you know, we did not have a lot of resources but we did not know growing up. 3:11 GS: Did you have any siblings growing up? 3:12 AH: Yes, I have a sister whose two years older who, I went to public high school in Queens until I graduated and went to Queens College. She actually went to Stuyvesant High school in the city, and ended up in the University of Rochester. 3:27 GS: And that is your only sibling? 3:28 AH: Uh-huh, one sibling. 3:29 GS: It is safe to assume that your parents both spoke fluent Armenian? 3:32 AH: Yes. We only spoke Armenian in the home. 3:34 GS: You did! For how long? 3:35 AH: Until I was five. So, I really did not speak English well until I went to kindergarten. 3:39 GS: Really, and do you still speak Armenian fluently now? 3:40 AH: Yes. 3:42 GS: Um, why was it important do you think for your parents that you speak Armenian? 3:46 AH: Um, I think it was preservation of culture, it was tradition. It was because it was the thing to do. I made both of our kids to go to Armenian school and both of them understand it fluently and can speak it very well which is surprising nowadays. I think it is something when you are such a small number of people that you do it as a matter of just tradition. 4:09 GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood growing up for example; would you say that you hung out mostly with Armenian children or non-Armenian children? 4:17 AH: We just had that conversation. So, we did the whole seven-day week going to school; five days a week. I just saw one of my kindergarten friends yesterday. So, I had very good friends from my neighborhood in Rego Park and Forest Hills, and then I had my Saturdays in Armenian school, Sundays at Sunday school and made some of my best friends doing church basketball, ACYOA, the youth group all these things. I would say it was probably fifty-fifty; maybe forty-sixty with the 60 percent being Armenian and it was a saving grace because you know all the issues you go through in school it was nice to always have your Armenian friends as either a real cover or a fake cover. So, if you did not want to go to certain parties or you are busy with your basketball friends or your church friends or whatever, so, you know it was probably half and half. I mean one of the things we had that we have tried to growing up which we have tried to maintain now is families who we were friends with so our kids are friends with their kids. It is almost a set social outlet. It gets a little tougher when the kids are teenagers but you know we are friends with the parents, our kids were friends, so we are all cousins, aunts and uncles everything like that, but it has gotten harder. 5:26 GS: Would you say that as a child your Armenian group and your non-Armenian group were separate? 5:31 AH: Yes, very much so. 5:32 GS: Um, where did you– what was the highest level of education that you achieved? 5:36 AH: I got a Master’s in Public Administration at NYU (New York University) and I did my Bachelor’s at Queens College like I said. 5:44 GS: Growing up what would you say was the main social space for the Armenian community that you were part of? 5:49 AH: The church. 5:49 GS: The church? 5:50 AH: Uh-huh. 5:50 GS: What kinds of activities would they have beyond just traditional church services? 5:54 AH: I did not really do youth things until after age eighteen and those where never in the traditional church, you would always find out to do them outside. But it was, you know, church basketball which was never done in the church, it was done at basketball courts around the region, and after graduating college it was different Armenian related like young professional’s groups like that and those spaces were usually social spaces in Manhattan. 6:20 GS: What other kinds of traditions beyond the language and the religion did your parents try to keep for you guys growing up? 6:26 AH: I would say family. The importance of family I mean I was jealous of all my friends used to go to Florida on vacation because I would have to go to Egypt, Beirut, Jerusalem, Armenia, you know so we travelled all the time. 6:38 GS: So, you travelled abroad a lot! 6:40 AH: From the time when we were born we were travelling, because of all of our– my grandparents, well actually my mother’s side came to Boston when we were young, so they were here. My father’s parents were in Jerusalem until they passed away. We used to see them very often. We had extended family in Armenia. So, it was, you know we did a lot of travel, so whereas kids go to Disney World and do things like that you know we were deprived of those things. [laughs] So was that, it was the get-togethers, it was obviously the holidays. It was cultural events, it was political events, I mean my dad was very politically involved and aware so you know– 7:17 GS: What kinds of political events? 7:18 AH: Um, well there was an Armenian man named Sam Assadian, who passed away few years ago who I adored, who worked for then mayor, Ed Koch. I want to say he had some connection to Lindsey also. But we used to go to things at Gracie Mansion then obviously in the (19)70s going into the eighties some of the Armenian genocide recognition started build–building up a little bit more steam. This was the era of terrorism ASALA which was not a group that we were proud of at all, it was basically Armenian revolutionary fighters who were fighting for recognition of the Armenian genocide in ways different than we try do now. But there was then a counter to that which was unified groups of Armenians from different sects got together and tried to get political recognition in Washington and whatever else. So, it was a lot of information sharing, lobbying or advocating. I should say lobbying; a lot of advocating, you know advocacy work. The Armenian Assembly was a big organization I was involved in from probably early (19)80s I was in in term with them and stayed involved with them forever. So, a lot of meeting politicians I worked in politics and governments for years so that gave me an opening to meet a lot of pretty influential public officials. So, it was a lot of you know trying to educate people about us our people, our history, some of it was genocide related, some of it was just history related. You now the big joke among Armenians is we were the first Christian nation, we were the first Christian nation and we were just in Rome with the kids last year we took them for the Pope’s event and someone there said something about Constantine, and you know Christianity and Catholicism and Armen who was thirteen said, Oh no Armenian was the first Christian nation, [laughs] so you know, it is like kind of it perpetuates itself. 9:05 GS: Okay, so it sounds like were in a very large and active Armenian community growing up? 9:09 AH: Yes. 9:10 GS: Where was the Church that you attended? 9:11 AH: Bayside– 9:12 GS: The Holy Martyrs? 9:14 AH: The Holy Martyrs. But we spent so much time in Watertown because that is from my maternal grandparents where my grandmother and my grandfather passed away when I was three. We used to spend probably a weekend a month or a weekend every six weeks in Watertown and we go to Church there too. 9:27 GS: Okay, um so, going a little bit to your adult life, you are married and you said you have children, can you tell me about your husband and your children? 9:35 AH: So, my husband Stephen used to play at the same church basketball league and his sister and I were, went to the Armenian Assembly internship program together and interestingly his dad who I have enormous respect for was friendly with my dad and he was on the policy side of the committee when my dad was doing the diocese side and anyway, so Stephen and I were friends for a long time before we dated. He is also pretty much first generation, although his dad was born in New York City, but he is equally Armenian, but very different, did not grow up speaking Armenian and so we have married twenty-two years, twenty-one, twenty-two years now. We have two kids, Kenar is sixteen, junior in high school, Armen is just now fourteen, eighth grade and they are, I would define them as pretty Armenian, they are not involved in youth group, they do not do ACYOA, both graduated Armenian schools begrudgingly first and both of them are thrilled and very proud. Now we just kind of cool to see. You know they would not say it but both of them speak Armenian and they both love that they are graduate. They are both in Sunday school so they are learning the faith. You know, it is a little bit more challenging I think now to do the stuff we did growing up because the demands that school and American world is so much more pressing than for us. But you know, we have been to Armenia couple times as a family. I took them out of school to take them to the Pope’s service in honor of the Armenian genocide last year. So, you know, we were definitely driven by things Armenian. 11:14 GS: Would you say was it important to you growing up that you end up marrying someone who is Armenian? 11:18 AH: So funny you asked that. My dad passed away when I was just graduating college. So, he was not there for it. And it is funny we used to joke around and say we have to marry an Armenian but they never, you know my mother says it more now as if it was really nice but no there was no pressure. 11:34 GS: There was no pressure? 11:35 AH: No, and I think that helps because ultimately you see how challenging life could be and it is nice to be with someone who you are really compatible with. 11:45 GS: So, there was not any pressure on you but did you personally feel was it important to you? 11:48 AH: I think in the end I was thrilled. I mean especially now. But it was not like a pressure but it was it would be a really cool thing to do. So, I remember dating someone who was not Armenian and he loved Armenian things, he loved learning and he loved everything and he said to me. I will become an Armenian. I was like okay, but you still do not get it, you know. And that is not the reason I broke up with him, but I think in hindsight when people say it is nice to have common ground something to it. 12:18 GS: Okay, so you said both of your children speak Armenian now. How did they learn it? 12:27 AH: Oh yeah remember, Tata, did you have–Remember, the baby sitter? 12:30 GS: Oh, Tomsic! 12:31 AH: Yeah, we called her Tantic but Kenar named her Tata when she was one. So, we had, my mom was really involved when my kids were around, I used work full time, still do. So, our first baby sitter was full Armenian from our Church only spoke Armenian with the kids and my mom was around all the time and she was basically their caregiver as well. So, they were surrounded by– 12:54 GS: So, they learned by immersion? 12:55 AH: Totally. 12:56 GS: Was there any–did you send them to Armenian language school? 12:58 AH: Yes, Armenian language school. It was fine, it was great. 13:01 GS: Weekends or– 13:02 AH: Saturdays. All day Saturdays for hours. 13:05 GS: So, they attended regularly? 13:06 AH: Yeah, but the regular public school, the reality is you do not learn Armenian in Armenian school only, if we enforce, we learn it in the home. So ̶ 13:15 GS: What kind of traditions did you try and maintain in the household for your children to give them an Armenian heritage? 13:22 AH: Well, there are a lot of books, there is sometimes things on TV, and it is not really so much traditions, aside from the holidays and the family get-togethers. It is a lot of just being surrounded, like in our den we have my husband’s great grandmother socks that she wore during the desert marches, you know during the genocide with the holes on the bottom, like they are hand-knit gorgeous wool socks, so I actually spent money had them mounted and framed. And there are conversation points. My grandmother, my mom’s mom who passed away when she was a hundred, her ilik (spindle) which is how she would basically make her wool is on our den shelf. So, you know these are kinds of things you do not talk about every day but they definitely know they are there and they ask questions about them once in a while. And every once a while now their friends will be up what is that and then you will hear them out of the corner. 14:15 GS: Okay, so how do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? Do you think it is something that was an accident or do you think it is something that has its own unique identity? Do you think it is something is evolving or it has more permanence to it? 14:27 AH: Okay, so I am in a very different position talking about this because I am on the board of AGBU [Armenian General Benevolent Union] which is probably largest philanthropic Armenian Organization and we have this very strong belief now that diaspora is not what it used to be. It used to be that we had a homeland. People fled it during the genocide and created little diasporas-Middle East, South America, New York, then LA (Los Angeles), Western Europe and now interestingly the diaspora is larger than the homeland. You look at Russia, you look at Los Angeles, South America, Western Europe– New York to an extent, but we are not the largest any more. And the diaspora in New York is very different than the diaspora in LA (Los Angeles). So, now you have got a huge outside country, country and you have got Armenia. So, I would say the American diaspora is not what is used to be, it is constantly evolving and redefining itself either by choice or by fact, but you know the issues in Armenia are very different now than they were before independence. 15:34 GS: How is the diaspora changed in America? 15:36 AH: Because of the immigration who they are coming and what they are doing, you know if you were told me thirty years ago that you have diaspora population in, can you hold on one second– [You are very good; you are very good at this] Uh, if you told me thirty years ago that there might be Armenian gangs and you know and this is nothing to be proud of but the population, in the LA ((Los Angeles) diaspora is a population that has done things that you are not particularly proud of as enterprising you know immigrant community and whatever else I would have laughed at you, I would be no way Armenians are all hard workers, and we follow the rules and were you know, so I think in some ways we have got some of the most successful and we do this things now through AGBU with you know at prominent Alumni of AGBU related things whether its Camp Nubar or some of the internships we‘ve had scholarships programs and where they are, if you so some of these people, you are like are they Armenian, Oh my God, never knew that. You know and they just really make you proud as an ethnicity and then you hear some of the stories and you say “Oooh why are they doing that?” you know? But why are we different than any other diasporic community gets some bad and whole a lot good. So definitely the community has changed. 16:51 GS: How would you see the role of Armenian organizations such as AGBU in trying to bring new immigrants into the diaspora? Did you see it as focusing too much on recent immigrants versus multi-generational Armenian? 17:06 AH: No, I think for example like AGBU now has adopted this feeling of global Armenian nations. So, it is one nation and it is working with the different segments. So, we have a huge effort now with the whole issue in Syria and the refugees in humanitarian relief whatever, but the same time we have education programs aside from schools you know online learning which is obviously appealing to younger population. You know it is a whole e-Learning Center. Then, we have a– all kinds of cultural programs. So, it depends. For every type of Armenian there is a program, an opportunity, scholarships whatever it is, and there is no real preference given to one or the other but it is understanding how the needs have evolved and how the programs have a sort of reflect, those changing needs, so– 17:59 GS: Why do you think– how and why that the evolution happens from multiple different Armenian communities to one larger global diaspora? 18:07 AH: Well, we are not there yet. Because I think there is still is the pockets of diasporas but we believe going forward you better think of it as one global diaspora because if you do not you going to be so fragmented that no one is going to help each other. 18:20 GS: Do you see this attitude being taken up by other diaspora communities? 18:23 AH: Some. 18:23 GS: Some, such as? 18:25 AH: You know there is definitely some Armenian, I mean it depends if there is some Armenians based in South America who feel it. There is some based in Europe, some based in the Middle East, but there is still very much that old thinking of; we are fine, thank you very much leave us alone, you know we are doing okay. But I think because of probably technology more than anything else there is a common platform so for example, the young professionals which again something AGBU started years ago but the YPs [Young Professionals] ideally it is like a twenty-four to let us say thirty-eight type of an age group. But these are people who very much want to be engaged with similar people. There is more of a common thinking among them. They want to do all professionally. They are curious about their homeland. Most have travelled there already. They have an interest in helping, however, they can and they see similarities, so every–two years, you know, hundreds if not a thousand of them got together and there is more similarities and differences even if they are from culturally or geographically different places. So, technology has brought a lot of this together. 19:42 GS: Where do you see the American diaspora in say fifty to a hundred years? Do you think it is a diaspora that is growing becoming stronger or do you think that is at risk of losing its identity? 19:54 AH: Aspirationally I would say it is growing, and I actually think things like inter-marriage not terrible because you know I have found and maybe it is naïve I have many friends who’ve married non-Armenians who have brought them into the community to an extent, you know, who have been able to raise their children who feel that need to belong and be involved. So, I think and maybe its aspirational, it is going to get stronger if our homeland keeps us together. We need a strong homeland as all ethnicities do. And right now, there is challenges there. There issues of rule of law and governance and whatever else but I have always been a glass-half-full person and so I do not think you throw the baby out with the bath water. So, there are issues people talk about; corruption people talk about, unfair internal justice, okay, and my believe is to talk about them, and you try to make them better and I am a student of American history and I do not think America is perfect with any stretch of the imagination but you know you have enough people trying to do good work, so you make it work. 21:03 GS: If you could give one lesson to future generations of Armenians in trying to teach them how to maintain the cohesiveness of the diaspora, what would it be? 21:12 AH: Stay involved, stay informed, read, put thing in context. I mean the best thing, you know, I teach just adjunct now, but I tell my students you have to read, you have to even if just a news aggregator you just get headlines so what’s going on in Syria now is exactly what happened, I mean obviously, metaphorically but exactly what happened one hundred years ago. It just we are hearing about a lot more because of technology but things repeat themselves. So, you have to understand what goes on in certain places has happened before and you know? So I think it is: read, stay involved, stay form, do not say oh, I am so embarrassed by what I just read about this thing Armenian I am cutting myself off. That is kind of weak person’s excuse. 22:04 GS: How do you see your children? What do you think will be the differences between the way your children see their Armenian identity in the way that you saw yours? 22:14 AH: I hope not much, because you know my daughter’s pretty American, I mean if you asked her what are you, she would probably say American-Armenian or whatever but her dream is to go back to Armenian with a camera and just shoot non-Yerevan landscape. You know like that is kind of a cool thing for a sixteen-year-old to wanna do. So, I hope it is not much different. I think the reality is when we get together with our friends, the parents aren’t talking Armenian. It is not all about church politics, when hanging out with priests all the time, so it is a little bit different than the immersion I had. 22:49 GS: Where was the main social space when you were growing up for the Armenian community? 22:55 AH: I kind of say church a little but I think it was the homes. I think it was the homes and then you know as I got older like after college it was restaurants and bars in the city you know? 23:05 GS: Would you say it is the same for you children now? 23:08 AH: Probably the home. Because they go to church but it’s not like they feel cozy and comfortable there. 23:15 GS: Okay, Thank you very much. I appreciate it. 23:16 AH: That is it? Okay. 23:20 (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Arda Haratunian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/149e899206e79b88aa7fa1dbebe29ab8.mp3 65b3116b0a161fff79633cb9b595666e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 4/4/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dolores Rogers Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 25:22 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}" data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dolores is a very active member of the Armenian Church. She volunteers as office administrator and is on the Parish Council and helps with the Women's Guild. She received her MBA at Fairleigh Dickinson University. Currently, she resides in DC and has two sons.&quot;}">Dolores is a very active member of the Armenian Church. She volunteers as office administrator and is on the Parish Council and helps with the Women's Guild. She received her MBA at Fairleigh Dickinson University. Currently, she resides in DC and has two sons.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}" data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Turkey; Armenian genocide; church; Armenian language school; music; identity; food; Women's Guild; diaspora&quot;}">Armenians;Turkey; Armenian genocide; Church; Armenian language school; Music; Identity; Food; Women's guild; Diaspora; Family; New Jersey.</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Dolores Rogers Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 4 April 2016 Interview Setting: Phone Interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University within the Special Collection’s Library. Would you please state your name and a little bit about yourself for the record? 0:14 DR: Sure. My name is Dolores Rogers formerly Vartabedian. And I am sorry? 0:22 GS: Please continue. Please continue. 0:25 DR: And I am what I believe to be one hundred percent Armenian. I was born and raised in New Jersey, now living in Bethesda, Maryland and I am sixty-seven years old. 0:43 GS: Okay, can you tell me a little bit about your parents please? 0:46 DR: My what, I am sorry you breaking up a little bit. 0:54 GS: Your parents please. 0:55 DR: My parents, my parents– well story goes, legend goes my mother was born and raised in East Orange, New Jersey. She is one of three girls that were born and raised in New Jersey. My grandparents, my mother’s parents were from Tokat, which is formally Armenian which I believe now is part of Turkey. And they were victims of the Armenian genocide. My mother was born in 1921. My father, we were told he was born in Brooklyn, New York but later after his death through other fables and conversations with family members we found out that my father was born in Turkey during the genocide and my grandmother, his mother, escaped Turkey with my father as an infant and came through Ellis Island to her brothers and friends who took her in in Brooklyn, New York. And then hence my father was raised. 2:14 GS: Okay, did your parents speak Armenian? 2:17 DR: My mother and father spoke fluent Armenian. Unfortunately, they did not let it trickle onto my sister and myself, my sister being Margaret. I think that they enjoyed having a second language in the house where they could speak another language my sister and I would not understand. My sister and I both spoke it quite well as very young children. We attended church and Armenian language classes but never carried it through the years hence we lost it. 2:55 GS: How frequently would you two attend Armenian language classes and for how long? 3:01 DR: Oh, my grandfather on my mother’s side was the head deacon at the church in Irvington, New Jersey. And every single Sunday from as early as I can remember, he was there dragging my sister and I, out of, out of bed and into his Nash rambler and off we went to church. So, my sister and I each were members of the church very early on. We went to Armenian school on Saturdays, we went to Sunday school on Sundays and we sang in the choir, we taught classes in the Sunday school classes and to this day even now I do not speak Armenian language, I can sing the two-and-a-half-hour Armenian what we call the Badarak. In language without a book so that I am proud of. 4:02 GS: It is wonderful. Can you tell me a little bit about your childhood first of all, what would you say was your main kinship group? Would you say you mainly hung out with Armenians or with non-Armenians or some combination thereof? 4:16 DR: It was a combination but I would say was strongly on the Armenian side because we attended church so religiously on Saturdays and Sundays and my parents were very close to their cousins, their siblings, of course and their, cousins. And our main form of entertainment often times was visiting the cousins and my mother’s– my parents’ cousins; hence my cousin’s and we visited one another’s homes quite often. And music was always part of the evening. My mother played the piano, another uncle played the violin, one played the accordion and my aunts would sing the Armenian songs in the– from the Armenian service at church songs, so that was Armenian form of entertainment. I think the family- no- I know that family was the number form of entertainment and the school friends would trickle beyond. 5:30 GS: Would you say that your Armenian and non-Armenian friends were overlapping groups or would you hang out with one then the other? 5:39 DR: They were very separate. 5:41 GS: Very separate? Why was that? 5:46 DR: Well, you know living now in the Washington D.C. area when someone asks me what my nationality is, my heritage, my culture; I can say Armenian and they immediately get it. But sixty years ago, in New Jersey when people asked me what I was and I would say– respond Armenian. The common and dominant response was what is that. So, very often because there– because I was fluent in our language and I would say our customs were unlike my school friends, the neighborhood friends. So, there was a divide. 6:36 GS: How did that make you feel growing up about your identity? 6:42 DR: I ̶ gosh, that is a good question, I have not thought about this for years, I felt the sense of discomfort and that was sort of passed on because I know distinctly that my mother was so adamant about telling my sister and I to get involved, to join the girls scout, to join the student council, to get involved to be a cheer leader or play in the band, anything, everything, because my grandfather would not commit my mother and her sisters to engage with other– the outsiders, the non-Armenians of the neighborhood. So, I was uncomfortable. I would say I felt distinctly different. I mean the name Vartabedian was changed for the sake of that. For some odd reason it was changed to Wartman by my grandfather on my father’s side. And you know going to church as a Wartman when it should have been Vartabedian this is a very clear sense of discomfort that it gave me for years. 8:09 GS: What would you say you identify as and would you say that identity is changed over the course of your life? 8:17 DR: Well, now I live in the heart of the D.C metro region and I am very active with the Armenian Church both as a volunteering as a part time, office administrator. I am quite thrilled to see how proud these young Armenians and young Armenian families are of their heritage, of their custom of their language and most of all of their names. I mean if you think about a very famous artist Arshile Gorky. He was an abstract expressionist who came– whose mother and his family suffered the consequences of the Armenian Genocide and when he came over the US and he joined in with others like Eastern, Western European artist. He immediately changed his name to something that had more of a Russian twist to it so that he could be accepted. That kind of stigma no longer prevails here. I am proud to say. But again, I live in a very multi-cultural area of the US. I do not know how it is in rural areas. 9:39 GS: So, what do you identify as? 9:42 DR: Oh, truly as an Armenian. Actually, my name now, although it is Dolores Rogers, whenever I can I put that name Vartabedian in between Dolores and Rogers. I am Armenian, and proud of it. 10:02 GS: What was the highest of education you achieved? 10:06 DR: My MBA at Fairleigh Dickinson University. 10:11 GS: And what has been your main occupation? 10:17 DR: Marketing leader in corporate environment. 10:22 GS: Okay, moving onto your adult life, did you marry or have children? 10:27 DR: Yes. I am married, married and divorced. I have twin sons. 10:34 GS: Is your husband Armenian? 10:36 DR: No, he is Irish. 10:38 GS: He is Irish. Was it important for you or for your parents that you marry an Armenian growing up? 10:45 DR: It was not as important to me because again I was in that mindset of not fully identifying then an Armenian. My parents were a little flexible. I think they would have preferred me to marry an Armenian then but it just did not really happen that way. 11:09 GS: Did your children grow up attending Armenian Church? Did they learn Armenian as children? 11:17 DR: No, we had– my ex-husband raising the boys in the church environment was as important to him as it was to me. But we flipped the coin because in Roman Catholic church, he was brought up as a Roman Catholic, we had a Roman Catholic Church in our neighborhood, walking distance two blocks from our home. The Armenian Church was thirty-two miles from our home. And we decided to raise the boys in the Roman Catholic Church and they went through CCP classes. They had their holy communion and their confirmation and they still follow, well one of the twins is raising his daughter, my granddaughter, in the Catholic Church with his wife. And I am working with my other twin here in the metro region to raise my two grandsons, have them baptized in the Armenian Church here in D.C. 12:27 GS: Okay, did you try and maintain a sense of Armenian traditional heritage in your household as your children were growing up in a way other than religious? 12:39 DR: Absolutely, absolutely yes. And that was still easy to do because I was very, my parents were very involved and active in helping me raising my boys because I divorced when they were ten years old. So, the cooking was always was there. The music was always there when there was the church function at the Armenian Church I would deliberately take the boys there so that they could appreciate the culture. The language we would use in my parents household as well but I would say that the food is probably, the Armenian food is top of their list. 13:21 GS: For you what is the most important part of your Armenian identity? 13:32 DR: I think our survival and our pride. 13:35 GS: So, for you it is a sense of being part of the community? 13:40 DR: Do I feel the sense of being part of the community? 13:43 GS: No, no I am saying, for you– is it that for your identity is tied to being part of the community? 13:52 DR: Well, that is in the smallest scale. The grander scale is you have ties that go back to the year of 1915. My grandparents– all three of them that I knew– were direct victims of and escapees from the genocide, which we just celebrated last year one hundred years, and so, that, that is a common bond that Armenians of all ages has. And more personally today in a closer circle is my identity and my connection, my direct link to the Armenian community. Because we have got almost the melting pot if you will as much as we are all Armenians and we just kind of had a discussion about this this in Church on Easter Sunday. I was sitting at a table with all Armenians. So, I am an Armenian from New Jersey. There was an Armenian who is from Georgia sitting next to me, another one from Egypt, another from Turkey, and another from Syria. So, as much as they are, we are all from different countries, our number one identity we all agreed is that we are Armenians. 15:21 GS: Can you tell me, are you involved within the Armenian-American organizations where you live now? 15:29 DR: Well with the Church I am. I am involved with the Parish Council, the Women’s Guild, there are other organizations that are larger than that and they are business networking events that we attend, Armenian Assemblies that we attend. It is a little of a common bond. GS: Can you tell me about your work with the Women’s Guild? DR: Well, the Women’s Guild is quite ambitious and kind of the pulse of the Armenian Church. These women are an army of volunteers to raise money for the church through their divine cooking and baking skills and acting as host to many luncheons and dinners, and so I help out in the kitchen when I can. And none of them have the recipes. It all comes from their heads, they are quite amazing. So, I help out there where I can. I think I have more of a common bond with the members of the Parish Council because they are the business minds, you know, the CEOs, the CFOs and treasures and so that is kind of my scale of skills set and we work on various projects for fundraisings for the church and an awareness of my duty and raise membership in the church. 17:09 GS: What are your views on the Armenian Diaspora? Do you see it as a singular entity? Do you see it as several isolated communities? Do you think it is something that is a temporary entity? Do you think that Armenians trying to go back to the homeland? 17:28 DR: That is such an interesting question Gregory because just this past week on Sunday, I was not in church on Sunday, but there was the Ambassador for eminent or for excellence, a woman who is in charge of the Armenian Diaspora from the Republic of Armenia. Now, I tried to pin down what her mission was exactly today. And it is something about connecting the Republic of Armenia; people, citizens with those who are coming here to the US, right, and are scattered around and about. I think what they are trying to do is kind of a unification, and create one board − I mean the quality of Armenia from what I understand although I am ashamed to say I have never been there, but it is number one in my bucket list. The Armenians from like 1988 and 1990 where they experienced the earthquake and then it no longer became Soviets Socialist of Republic, so the, you know, the Russians dumped Armenian and it was really, really hard for Armenians to turn their economy around. Many Armenians, many Russian Armenians will say today that they preferred Armenian when the Russians were in control because they had more opportunity or definition about their employment and their healthcare etc. So, Armenia was not really quiet in desperate of financial straits. Now it has gotten a little bit stronger but I will tell you many, many people are leaving the country, coming to the US for you know bigger opportunities. I mean this is not even part of the–you know the Syrian Armenian immigration issue that is a whole other effort. But I see many Armenians, many young Armenian women are looking for Armenian–many women Armenian in Armenia are looking for Armenian men here in the US who would bring them over, marry them and make them, you know, outright citizens of the US because they perceive it as a country the streets are paved with gold? 20:12 GS: Do you see a level of integration with new wave of Armenian immigrants or do you see a divide forming between those Armenians who have roots going back several generations in America and those who are more recent? 20:27 DR: Yeah, that is a good question Gregory because it is– I think it is an economic issue. Okay, not to say that there is stigma on those who cannot afford. There are many Armenian’s who have come immediately to the D.C metro region who are very skillful, very educated, almost over educated, they come to the US they get opportunities within the State Department. Lots of that is going on. Okay, so when you are at that level, you know that you are kind of I guess the onlookers are revered. You know, you kind of revered, you just like oh my, and it looking at him, he has got PhD, he got an MD, and he is working for the government et cetera, et cetera. then there are those who come to this country have got relative who are bringing them in and they are desperate for opportunities. They come in and offer themselves as nannies to help us you know cleaning service. You know I am coming from the vantage point of we are at church and we are here to help them. But is there a divide? Absolutely, absolutely a divide. These women and men, young couples are coming with their children deliberately getting their children injected into the school system here in hopes that their children will have a better opportunity to grow within our institutions and take advantage of a job opportunities going forward. 22:10 GS: What role do you see Armenian-American organizations playing in trying to bridge the divide between recently arrived immigrants and multi-generational Armenian-Americans? 22:31 DR: My point of view– many of the few Armenian organizations that I am aware of– not affiliated with the church but are independent Armenian organizations. They are very politically focused. It is about strategy. It is about– it is all that−massacres− that goes on, lobbying for this and for that, trying to get you know the current administration, the White House, to use genocide word to denounce any activity that is going on in Turkey. There is still a lot of this anger with the Turkish government in these politically and strategically minded Armenian organizations. Their focus on uniting, unification of the peoples. I do not sense that there is platform. 23:38 GS: Do you think that the American-Armenian Diaspora is going stronger or do you think it is at risk of losing its identity? 23:49 DR: Oh, I think it is growing stronger and again because I am so connected, you know I am woven into the fabric of the Church and my pastor who is a young man, of maybe forty-four, he is very sound, very great obviously compassionate but always interested in getting and he has many leaders visiting D.C. So, he gets lots of speaker in opportunities and engagers who want a platform, who want a podium time in front of the congregation to speak their thing so, I would say that within Armenian Community yes there is here in D.C. There is concerns and interest with that. And I think that is also dictated by the Eastern Diocese Church in Manhattan, the Archbishop Barsamian [Khajag Barsamian]. He is a very sharp, very kind but a brilliant lobbyist for that and he is the PR icon for that cause as well, who is dominant, it is definitely dominant in the minds. 25:18 GS: Okay, it looks like I’ve gone through all of our questions. Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dolores Rogers https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1c6b0c177b1c96c5017350573c098e29.mp3 a623369613c0eeff11595cf1670dfb98 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p> Description An account of the resource <span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.&nbsp; The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. &nbsp;</span> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.&nbsp; Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. George Rejebian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 32:19 Date of Interview 5/2/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;George first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Mary. Together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Marion. Together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Turkey; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Ellis Island; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; genocide; Navy; identity; diaspora; assimilation&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11}">Turkey; Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory; Ellis Island; gender roles; Armenian language school; church; genocide; Navy; identity; diaspora; assimilation</span> Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <strong>Armenian Oral History Project</strong><br /><strong>Interview with:</strong> Dr. George Rejebian<br /><strong>Interviewed by:</strong> Gregory Smaldone<br /><strong>Transcriber:</strong> Cordelia Jannetty<br /><strong>Date of interview:</strong> 2 May 2016<br /><strong>Interview Setting:</strong> Binghamton, NY<br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br />&nbsp;<br />(Start of Interview)<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>0:01</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> This is Gregory Smaldone with the Binghamton University Special Collection’s Library on the Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please state your name for the record?<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>0:10</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, I am Dr. George Rejebian.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:13</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Where were you born sir?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:15</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Binghamton, New York.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> In what year?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:17</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> 1929.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:19</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> 1929. Okay, can you tell me the names of your parents?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:23</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, my mother’s name was– you want the maiden name?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:27</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Please.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:28</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, Dikranouhi Zapabourian. Maybe I better spell that–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:34</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Please.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:35</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Z-a-p-a-b-o-u-r-i-a-n.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:39</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Perfect.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father was Peter Arakil Rejebian.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:43</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, and were they born in America?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:46</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, my mother is from Sivas, Turkey, and my father is from Hadjin, Turkey.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:52</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, and when did they emigrate to America?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>0:55</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father emigrated here in 19 ̶, actually during the massacre time. It is 1916–1917–1918 during that period. He went to Cuba to marry my mother who was one of the orphans of the genocide that went from Sivas through Deir ez Zor and ended up in an orphanage in Beirut and then from there they went to–eventually went to Marcy and then to Cuba. And my father went to Cuba and married her, and brought her back and that was in 1927.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>1:43</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Now, was that an arranged marriage or did they know each other?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>1:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Arranged. I think 90 percent of them were at that time.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>1:48</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> That is what I am starting to realize the more I look into it. Okay, and I am assuming your parents both spoke Armenian?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>1:55</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, in fact I spoke Armenian, only Armenian until I went to kindergarten, until I was five.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:03</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, do you have any siblings?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:06</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> One sister.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:08</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Older or younger?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:09</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Younger.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:10</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> And was it the same for her she spoke Armenian growing up?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:12</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no she was sort of mixed; Armenian-English but I was the oldest in the family and they spoke Armenian only in the household, you know.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:24</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did your– either of your parents attend high school or college?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:29</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> You know, again not in this country certainly. But in Turkey, I do not know there is no record. I would say my father probably went as far as high school. My mother probably graduated high school but that was in Turkey.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:48</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, what was your father’s profession?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:52</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> My father was a shoemaker.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>2:58</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> At the Johnson City Factory?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>3:01</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> That is the reason many of the Armenians came here to this area because the EJ, you know Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory and actually he would go to– He would actually go to the docks, as the immigrants came in and the slogan was you know, “Come to the triple cities and I will give you a fair deal.” And many of the immigrants, not only the Armenian immigrants but many of the, this was a very ethnic community way back and many of the– so there was a large Polish population, Russian, Slovak, you know all of these people that came to during that part that was how they were attracted to this area by the ̶<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>3:49</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Tell me more about that. Was your father sent by the Endicott Johnson Company to attract new immigrants?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>3:57</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no he came, he actually came through Ellis Island and actually his name is on, there is a wall of the immigrants and he actually came through Ellis Island and I do not think that he came primarily here for Endicott Johnson because there were people from his home town, from Hajin, who he knew where in Binghamton and of course they normally when were they know people.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>4:28</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> But you said that your father would tell immigrants coming in–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>4:30</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, not my father.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>4:32</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Not your father– the company<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>4:34</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> This was George F Johnson, the founder, he would go to the– to where the immigrants, to Ellis Island when they came in from Ellis Island and to get them to come to this area, he would say come to the triple cities you know I will give you a fair deal. And if you go, if you have been through like Johnson City, there is a big Arch there. And it says home of the square deal. That was where it came from.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:04</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Huh, so it is not FDR square deal it is George Johnson square deal–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:09</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, yeah, that is right.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:10</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> That is interesting.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:11</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> That was where that originated.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:12</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay. Thank you. So, your father worked at the shoe factory. Did your mother work?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:20</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, my mother did not work. It was very rare for the women to work. They normally–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:26</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> It was expected that they would stay at home?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:27</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> They stayed at home. They cooked very extensively. You know, they spent a lot of time in the kitchen and laundry. Of course in those days, you know, there was not washing machines and so everything was labor-intense.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:44</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> It took a lot more time.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:46</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, did you attend the public elementary school or–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:51</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I attended the public elementary school, yeah.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did you attend an Armenian language school, perhaps on the weekend?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>5:59</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Armenian language school was provided by the church, but you know in this area was not that extensive.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>6:10</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Would you say you got more of your education just from speaking Armenian at home?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>6:14</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, that was the only language that we spoke until we were, you know, five or six.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>6:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Growing up, would you say that there was a fairly large Armenian community that you were part of?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>6:26</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> There was actually in the– you will see that when you read that talk that I gave you. The area where the church is was so called the Armenian ghetto. It was 90 percent Armenians in that area. And that is why they wanted the church in that area. And so, yes, that area and then the first word which is you know Binghamton at all, Clinton Street, you know that area, that whole area was very heavily Armenian populated.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>7:03</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, you grew up in an area that was concentrated with Armenians?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>7:07</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>7:08</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So would you say–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>7:10</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> They resembled, Thai neighbors, you know–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>7:14</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did you have– how frequently did you attend the church? How frequently were there church services?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>7:18</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, when I was a young, originally they only could get a priest every three months. So, of course, whenever there was church we were, you know, our parents took us. I actually got my, a lot of my religious education in a Baptist Church because there was one close by and you know because we &nbsp;did not have regular services, it was not like now where they have two <em>Badaraks</em> a month, you know. And they have the priest’s wife as teaches Armenian and all that but we did not have those benefits. So, you know we attended church whenever there was church and eventually they got a priest every month and then they get you know.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>8:11</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> When did you– how old where you know when the church services started getting more regular?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>8:17</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, I was probably a teenager.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>8:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, it was fairly quickly into your childhood that the community started establishing the church?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>8:25</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh yeah. Well, the church was very active. It was still active even without a clergy man. I mean they had a Parish Council. That was sort of the glue that kept the Armenian community together, you know.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>8:39</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What kinds of functions would the church community perform outside the church services?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>8:44</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, they had dinners, they had you <em>Hantes</em>, where they–the kids would dance and sing and so forth and so on, you know.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>8:58</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, did you–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>8:59</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Picnics.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>9:00</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Picnics, did you socialize heavily with non-Armenian children that you went to school with? Or would you say–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>9:09</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Not very much, I think my pretty much was concentrated with the Armenians in fact, I belonged to–the boy’s scout troop which I belonged to was 100 percent Armenian.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>9:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Wow!<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>9:20</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> [laughs].<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>9:21</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>9:22</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Our scout leader was not, but–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>9:26</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Other than speaking Armenian and of course, attending the church, what were some ways in which your parents tried to make your household an Armenian household?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>9:37</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, of course, they always talked about the– you know, you heard a lot about stories about the old country, the way they lived. They did not talk about the genocide that much but at times they would, I think later on, my mother spoke pretty extensively of the genocide you know, how her father was, actually was a teacher and he was one of the, you know they killed the intelligentsia first and so he was killed in front of her eyes, and they took her mother away and then her sisters and brother and her went on the death march, you know. And you heard these stories, so there was the culture of, there was no television but there was a weekly storytelling. You know, the family would all get together, we always ate dinner together at the table and of course there was a lot of discourse there but at least once a week the family would get together and you would hear stories, all the stories of– that your parents would tell about their parents and the relatives and so forth. And so ̶<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>11:05</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did any of those stories stick with you?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>11:08</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Pardon?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>11:08</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Have any of those stories stuck with you?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>11:10</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, you know my father’s parents were in the horse– they used to raise horses and so they had to be multi-lingual in many languages because they sold to Arabs, to Turks and so forth and so on, and then my uncle, my father’s, my father had eight brothers and one sister, and only three of them made it to this country. The rest were killed but the oldest brother was actually sentenced to hang and the reason for that was Hajin was one of the small towns in the mountains, Hajin; Zeytun those towns actually gave a lot of resistance to the Turks. They gave them a pretty hard time. And when the Turks actually invaded the city, there were a lot of Turks living in the city. You know, that worked for the Armenians and they did not know if those Turks were going to turn against them or not, so they drew lots and they decided who was going to kill those Turks, before the Turks from the outside came in. Apparently my uncle was one of those that drew the lot and, of course, because of that he was sentenced to hang. And the night before he was sentenced to hang he was rescued by his friends and taken to Adana which is a port city and put on a ship and then you know got to the United States that way. So this kind of story you know, very interesting stories [laughs].<br />&nbsp;<br /><strong>13:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, so you grew up in the community, you watched–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>13:23</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> But the childhood was very Arminian-motivated although I had you know as I went through school, I had many non-Armenian friends.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>13:35</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So did you attend college after high school?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>13:37</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>13:38</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Where did you go?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>13:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well this originally where you were here, well not in this location but it was originally Triple City’s College. They started a Triple City’s College and it was mainly to serve the residents of this area. They did not take too many from out of the area. And then it had some financial difficulties and Syracuse University took it over and became Triple City’s College of Syracuse University. And so you could attend here or you could take courses at, go up to Syracuse and take courses which some of us did you know like in the summers a biochemistry course or something you would take it to be a little bit a head next year.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>14:27</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> And you started Biology I am assuming?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>14:28</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I was Biology major and Chemistry minor yeah. Okay, so then in– I am trying to think the year, in 1950, either (19)49 or (19)50 the state took it over. It became the state, part of the state university of New York system and so when we graduated, (19)51, that was the first BU [Binghamton University] degree that they gave. So we had the, they gave us the option they said that you could– senior year you could– in 1950 they said in senior year you could either go to Syracuse and do your senior year there and get a Syracuse degree which would mean of course a lot higher tuition, because the tuition here I think in those days and that money was like two hundred dollars a year ̶<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>15:23</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Oh my ̶<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>15:24</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Syracuse was maybe six hundred. So, most of us, you know, we did not have the money to go to Syracuse so we took our chances we stayed here in we got the BU degree.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>15:36</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>15:38</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And from there, of course, I went to a dental school at Georgetown and again all of us who went to medical or dental school were accepted on probation if we could keep a B+ average our freshman year we could stay.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>15:57</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Why are you accepted on probation?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>16:00</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Because they– State University of New York, Binghamton University degree was an unknown. The admissions committee said look they have no track record, we do not know anything about you accept what the school is telling us, so we do not know if you going to stack up to the kids that are coming from Colgate, Harvard or wherever, you know. So, they took us on probation and I would say that, I would say 100 percent of us stayed. I mean, I do not think that any of us had difficulty because in those days the classes here were like eight or ten students. It was more of a seminar than a classroom. You got to know the professor, it was one on one, you were tutored, you know, you were helped and so that was why I went to Georgetown and then after Georgetown I went on to the Navy I served five, six years as a dental officer three of those aboard ship in the Mediterranean and then my wife and I were married in 1957.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>17:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Now tell me about your wife. Did she grow up in Binghamton as well?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>17:19</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no my wife grew up in the Bronx.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>17:21</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, for the record your wife is Mary Rejebian, correct?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>17:25</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>17:26</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What was her maiden name?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>17:29</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Ekizian–E-K-I-Z-I-A-N– she grew up in the Bronx, graduate, went to Hunter College.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>17:35</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> How did you meet her?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>17:37</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well that is a very involved story. I was in Washington, my junior, my junior, and senior year at Georgetown. Our dean was a retired admiral in the navy. And we had a navy program that you could, it was a little more than a reserve program, you know, and the idea was if you were in this program the summers you usually worked it but that is in Quantico or one of those places you know because then you went on active duty those three months but ̶ &nbsp;so my wife’s brother was also stationed in Washington in the navy but it did not have anything to do with dental school but I met him at the church and so, we got to know each other very well and the church organist had a Christmas party and that was actually where I met him in the Christmas party. We got to be friends so he said one weekend he said let us go up and I will show you New York, you know, and so we went to New York and he wanted to go home and wash up and clean up and that was when I met her and met the little sister and so that was how I met her, it was a very roundabout way ̶<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>19:18</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Yeah, it is interesting story thank you for sharing. Now, Mary is Armenian correct?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>19:24</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Marianne is Armenian, yeah, both sides.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>19:28</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Was there pressure from your parents for you to marry an Armenian?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>19:31</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Never.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>19:32</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Never?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>19:33</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> In fact Marianne was probably the second Armenian girl that I ever dated. All through high– I mean in high school– and all through college, you have to understand that in the community like this the Armenian girls were more your sister. I mean you did not look at them in any other way. So, it was kind of hard to date an Armenian girl you know–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>20:02</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Because all the Armenian girls you knew–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>20:04</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah the Armenian girls were, you kind of you knew them through the church, you saw them every week at the picnics and so forth and so on, so there really was not any, any romantic attraction at all. It was strictly you know–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>20:18</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Would you say that was just the way you felt or was that typical?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>20:24</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I do not think my, well, it was not my father, my mother, because her parents where pretty highly educated was more liberal than my father. My father I would say was more conservative, you know strict Armenian. He would tell me, you know, not only marry an Armenian but marry an Armenian whose parents came from his home town from Hajin, [laughs] I mean really–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>20:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So for him it was not even just about keeping the Armenian community stable it was about keeping–transplanting his own community back?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>21:02</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, but there was never like an edict that said you have to marry an Armenian or–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>21:11</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Or else.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>21:12</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah. There was nothing like that. It just worked, it worked out that way. But you knew that if you did, that they would be happier. It would please them.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>21:22</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Yeah. Okay, so– when– after college and after serving in the Navy, you came back to Binghamton ̶<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>21:27</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no. Yes. After–while I was in the navy, actually I was with the sixth fleet for the two years aboard ship and then went to, well actually, when I went into the Navy we were not married. I went in 1955. When I graduated from Georgetown and then we went to the Mediterranean, and we came back and on that trip is when we were married. I knew–I had met her when I was only a junior in dental school so we knew each other for three or four years. But we got married then in 1957 and then she followed the ship when we went over there and met me in all the ports. So we really the navy gave us like a six month honeymoon you know, but then we went to New London to the submarine base. And I was attached to the USS Gate which was a second atomic sub, and we had our– at that time– that was when I decided I wanted to get– to take a residency in orthodontics where ended up so, so while we were there, I applied to Columbia and was fortunate in getting accepted so that was when we left the Navy after we left the submarine base and then we went back the Bronx. [laughs]<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>23:02</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, so that you can attend Columbia–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>23:05</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> We lived around the corner from her mother and I attended Columbia it was a two-year program–two-year residency.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>23:09</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, after that, you moved back to Binghamton?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>23:13</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yeah, we, we looked at Connecticut and all kinds of places and eventually we moved back to Binghamton, yes.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>23:20</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>23:21</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> And we moved back in Binghamton in 1961.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>23:24</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, 1961 you were back. How had the Armenian community changed since when you left for dental school?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>23:31</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, in 1961, I do not think it had changed that much. I think that it was still very coherent; the church was certainly more active. We had full-time priest for many many years. You know regular clergy and so forth. So I think it was probably as cohesive as when I was a kid, you know.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>23:58</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> But the church had become stronger as an institution?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:02</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:03</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, did you and your wife have children?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:07</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, we have two children; a boy, Gary and Vivian the daughter.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:15</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay and how old–what years were they born?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:18</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Gary was born in 1959, and then Vivian was born in 1961.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:28</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, did you speak Armenian to them when they were growing up?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:33</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Well, sort a half and half [laughs]. They– now Gary learned Armenian because he spoke to my father a lot and to Marianne’s mother.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:45</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What about Vivian?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:47</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Vivian understands Armenian but you know ̶<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:51</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Does not speak it ̶<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:52</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I would not say that she is fluent in it.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did you have them attend Armenian language school?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>24:57</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, no. We did not have it in this community. We really did not have and Armenian language school. Now, Gary when he went to Hamilton had a professor at Hamilton who– an Armenian professor–who gave him I think gave him at that time, there were not DVDs but there were tapes or whatever, but any way Gary learned a lot of Armenian while he was at Hamilton. This professor sort of tutored him. So, Gary is– can read and write Armenian and he is very– I mean and his children are very prolific, speak Armenian beautifully, they are both–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>25:43</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> He told me that they went– they attended the Armenian language school.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>25:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> They are both acolytes in the church and so forth.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>25:47</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Now, was it important to you when you first you had your children that they grow up speaking Armenian or that they learn to speak Armenian?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>25:58</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> No, I do not think so because we did not speak Armenian all the time at that point, you know?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>26:04</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> But you definitely wanted them to have an Armenian identity?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>26:07</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I wanted to have an identity and to have an appreciation for their culture and their heritage.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>26:16</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, obviously they attended the church services weekly.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>26:20</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> The church and both of them incidentally married Armenians, Gary and Vivian, but not through any–<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>26:29</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> –Pressure from you.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>26:30</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Pressure– Oh, no, not from us certainly. Because we were born in this country and we were very much American.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>26:37</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Did they attend Sunday school?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>26:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, oh, yes, in fact my wife was the youth group director of the church for like twenty years and do you know father Daniel Findikyan?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>26:54</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> I do not.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>26:56</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> He is a high surb you know and he is at the– he is at the– not at the Diocese but at the other, they have a center there. Well any way. He was one of the students. He was in my wife’s youth group. So he came from this Parish and I was Parish Council Chairman I think for ten years. You know very in– we were both very involved in the church we still are– my wife and I you know.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>27:31</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, so I guess we can move on a little bit too some more conceptual questions. First of all how would you identify yourself?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>27:43</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> As an American-Armenian, an American of Armenian heritage.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>27:48</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, what are your views on the Armenian diaspora both, firstly in the historical sense? Do you think is solely a product of the Armenian genocide and do you think that was supposed to be temporary state or do you think that emigration was part of the Armenian experience and that ̶<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>28:05</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, no I think the genocide was very, very– I mean they had to leave, they had to go somewhere. And you know the Armenians have– there has been– there was immigration to China, to the orient– all over the world. It was not just the United States.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>28:32</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Do you think that there is a single Armenian diaspora of all Armenians living outside of main land Armenian?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>28:38</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, no, very diversified. And only because I travelled a lot, I always made it a point to go to seek out the Armenian Church in the community in all the countries that I went to. And we went to all the countries in the Mediterranean from North Africa to Italy to Spain to France, in every one of them even in Italy and Milan there is an Armenian church there. And so–but they are very different, and then my mother had relatives in Cuba that we visited and they were very much into that, not in– yeah, and they were– I am sorry– she had relatives in Mexico, actually we honeymooned in Cuba, but they were very much into the Mexican culture you know.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>29:37</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, assimilation was part of the experience?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>29:40</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, yes.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>29:41</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What– were there any consistencies, though, in the different communities?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>29:45</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Yes, there was always a love for the church, the food, the culture. You could always rely on that, I mean no matter where you met Armenians and because I spoke Armenian I had a big edge, you know I went to the Armenian Church in Marcy and in Paris in London, all the different churches and as soon as you spoke Armenian, you had a common bond. And although they were each– they were loyal to the country they were living in–there was a very, very strong bond to the church and the culture, I mean you did not feel like you were another country, yes.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>30:33</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Going back to the Binghamton-Armenian community, where do you see it going? Do you think it is stronger than it was when you were growing up?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>30:43</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, definitely not, definitely not. It has become diluted you know; the grandchildren certainly do not have any of the– I mean I feel my grandchildren probably are very Armenian for their generation but not anywhere near what we were. You know? And of course the other thing is the mix-marriages.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>31:12</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> So, even though you did not want to put any pressure on your children to marry Armenians, the fact that people marrying non-Armenians tends to dilute the community?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>31:22</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Oh, sure, sure I mean it is the assimilation process.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>31:27</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> What do you think is the most important thing the community needs to do to maintain its Armenian identity?<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>31:33</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> I think the church is really the–the glue, really. In any community you always see, all the cities even in the United States like Baton Rouge has, you know, all cities like that you would never expect have very strong Armenian Churches. You know and where there is a church the people who have stayed to the church–close to the church have kept their identity. But the ones who haven’t have pretty much drifted off.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>32:14</strong><br /><strong>GS:</strong> Okay, well that is about all the questions I had, George thank you very much for your time.<br /><strong>&nbsp;</strong><br /><strong>32:17</strong><br /><strong>GR:</strong> Sure. I hope, I think you are–<br />&nbsp;<br />(End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. George Rejebian