169 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f81ca0533c167c0435945798ae2da13.mp3 c83f398f22bcd7818e68f7b1f7de3fa0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/28/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Varoujan Froundjian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 16:55 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Varoujan was born in Beirut and came to the United States as a student in 1979 to study theology. He earned his Maaster of Arts degree from Theatrical Instidute of Armenia. Varoujan has two children, Rafi and Anoosh"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Varoujan Froundjian is a graphic designer, writer, and cartoonist. He was born in Beirut, Lebanon, and came to the United States as a student in 1979 to study theology. He earned his Master of Arts degree  from Theatrical Instidute of Armenia. Varoujan has two children, Anoush and Rafi. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Lebanon; Armenia; church; language; traditions; assimilation; diaspora; gender roles; American culture; Lebanese culture"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Lebanon; Armenia; Armenian church; Armenian; Traditions; Assimilation; Diaspora; Gender roles; American culture; Lebanese culture; Armenian culture. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Varoujan Froundjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 28 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone conducting an interview for the Armenian Oral History Project with the Special Collection Section of the Binghamton University Library at Binghamton University. Would you please state your name, your age and a little basic biographical information for the record? 0:16 VF: Sure, my name is Varoujan Froundjian. I am born August 7th, 1952. I am sixty-three years old. I am born in Beirut, Lebanon from Armenian descent. 0:34 GS: Okay, what were your ̶ Were you an immigrant to this country? 0:39 VF: Yes, I moved to this country in 1979. 0:41 GS: In 1979, so you were sixteen years old when you came here, no you were ̶ 0:44 VF: I was twenty-six. 0:45 GS: You were twenty-six, I confused 1962 with sixty-three years old. 0:52 VF: When you say immigrant that might not be the right term, I came here as a student with a student visa to study theology and then my plans changed when I met my wife. 1:07 GS: Oh, can you tell me a little about your parents? 1:09 VF: Yes. My parents, my father his name was Setrak Froundjian. And my mother’s name Lusaper Froundjian. My father was actually in my grandmother’s tummy while they were going through the death marches. And as they tell me, my grandmother had twin, one of them died during death marches and my father survived. It was told that they come from town Sis in Turkey. 1:48 GS: Sis in Turkey, and so they fled until Lebanon. 1:50 VF: They fled to Lebanon. 1:52 GS: They fled to Lebanon and then you immigrated here. And obviously you spoke, you grew up speaking Armenian? 1:59 VF: I speak Armenian, fluent Armenian at my home. 2:02 GS: Did you grow up speaking any other languages? 2:04 VF: Yes, since we were living in Beirut, I learned Arabic, some French. Beirut is a cosmopolitan city. There are a lot of different tourists and different people. So I know some French, some Russian, some Arabic, and some Turkish. 2:21 GS: Would you say you speak any of those languages fluently or even proficiently? 2:26 VF: No, I can just say you know, I know the basics. 2:29 GS: You know the basics, okay, when so we will go straight to your life here. Can you tell us ̶ do you have any children? 2:38 VF: Yes, I do. I have a thirty year old daughter. Her name is Anoush who is an artist. She is a graphic artist, and my son Rafi, he is twenty-four, he is also an artist. He is musician. 2:51 GS: Okay, what was your highest level of education? 2:54 VF: I have a Master of Arts degree in Theatre Arts in which I took that from Armenia actually, from Theatrical Institute in Armenia and I graduated in 1977. 3:13 GS: Okay, growing up, how important ̶ as your children were growing up, how important was it for you that they speak Armenian? 3:19 VF: That is a very interesting question because when I first came to this country, I was married and I had my first daughter Anoush, my loyalty to my Armenian heritage and the culture was extremely strong. I wanted to make sure that Anoush will go to Armenian school so that she will learn Armenian language and she will inherit most of our culture, stories and she would know and that is why Anoush knows how to speaks Armenian and she is much more aware of Armenian culture, unlike Rafi, even though I tried to do the same to him, I had changed my ̶ I had become more Americanized ̶ my maybe loyalty, my interest was much more about making a living rather than preserving the culture so I kind of got laid back that is why Rafi does not speak Armenian, and his knowledge about Armenian history and culture is much much less than ̶ 4:20 GS: What would you say is the major differences between the Armenian community you grew up as a child in Lebanon and the Armenian community that you were part of here? 4:31 VF: Basically, they are the same. 4:33 GS: Wow, please can you explain? 4:35 VF: Basically they are the same because other than certain cultural or linguistic things like for instance, American Armenians would not speak Armenian fluently like the Middle Eastern, but as I came to this country and I noticed their attachment to church is the same, their attachment to holidays are the same, their attachment to celebrate holidays are the same. They give the passion to cooking and preserving culture, you know it is pretty much the same except the language. And also, the knowledge, since there is they did not speak Armenian, so they have less knowledge of Armenian literature, Armenian poetry, Armenian that is the part which lacks when it comes to American Armenians. 5:31 GS: Have you ever travelled to Turkey? 5:34 VF: I never did, no. 5:36 GS: Did you travel to Armenia after moving back here? 5:38 VF: Actually, I never went back, I never went back either to Lebanon or Armenia because it just for me it was difficult to make ends meet and I did not have extra funds to go back. 5:57 GS: What knew traditions would you say that you embraced coming to live here in America that you may have left behind? 6:05 VF: I have to be very honest when I came to this country I was extremely prejudiced, I was extremely anti-Semitic, anti-gay. I was very traditional person but America changed me, changed me in a very good way. It took away a lot of myths that I knew about people, about Jewish people, about gay people, about people who do not look like me or they do not talk like me. America has the ability kind of mix people together. You meet them every day especially when you are in New York, in Queens there are thousands of different dialects and different ethnicities and contacting with these people you start gradually let go off your old myths, and let go of your prejudices and you start looking and seeing the human being with the people that you deal with. You do not think in terms of ‘Oh, this person belongs to such and such’ when you just start dealing with these people on every day level and that is exactly what helped me to let go of my old thinking and embrace this beautiful thing which is America offers, equality and freedom of speech and especially the prejudice that we have which if I can put this in parenthesis, I cannot believe that it is coming back. That is a whole different subject. 7:46 GS: A whole different subject. How would you define assimilation today? And what was the assimilation process like coming to America, I know you talked about the feeling back of prejudice but what other challenges did you face? 8:09 VF: I think the most challenge is that no matter how valuable your cultural background is, your history, all the symbols that you have in your life [inaudible] and the churches and the culture and the music, suddenly it becomes almost unimportant, that is the sadness, that is the part that you had to kind of live with it because here you have to find a job, you have to make a living, you have to interact with different people. Suddenly all these valuable things, you do not even have time to read poetry, you do not even have time to go back to read Armenian novel for instance, and also the competition is very strong compared to my Armenian literature, that writers that I knew which were mostly provincial suddenly you are here you are reading Hemmingway, you are reading Faulkner, you are reading Shakespeare, suddenly the level is much much much higher and complex and you are fascinated about it and you kind of begrudgingly you have to let go your all the school thinking and get adopt a whole new vocabulary, a whole new level of thinking. 9:44 GS: How would you define being Armenian? 9:53 VF: I have changed a lot. I have changed a lot. I do not even consider myself Armenian now. 10:00 GS: What would you identify yourself as? 10:03 VF: I will consider myself a New Yorker, an American. 10:08 GS: Oh, please continue, what would you say defines one’s being Armenian? 10:12 VF: You asked me that question, have you ever gone back to Beirut, one of the reason I never gone back beside financial things, because I do not want to go back to the old mentality. New York and America has given me so much to enrich my new being that going back to Beirut it is almost going back to old fashion medieval times. I have changed a lot. I have become much more complicated. I have lost my sentimental attachment to old values. New York, when I read New York Times that New York Times is much more the pleasure and treasure than you know going back and reading a playbook for instance. 10:59 GS: How do you think your children will define being Armenian? 11:02 VF: For them it will going to be some kind of myth, some kind of a background story which, when it comes to Anoosh, I am something really surprised that she has great attachment. She in fact she tells me that can we speak Armenian, can we stop English and talk Armenian. That surprises me because I am much less Armenian now, I am much more Americanized. And I am kind of happy to see her that she wants to be Armenian. 11:36 GS: How do you view the Armenian diaspora in America? What are your thoughts, do you think it is an accident of history or something that’s here to stay? And do you think it has its own identity as opposed to native Armenians in Armenia today? 11:51 VF: Okay, there is no identity. I do not believe that that is where identity, and there is no Armenian identity in Armenia either. It is globalization now. We live in a whole different century. In this age it is even almost attachment to locality does not even exist. Only if it is maybe in terms of some basic cultural things and how to cook, how to you know talk, other than that, we are in global society now. It is all different. There are no more villages, there are no more old provinces. We are all on Facebook. You know, it is like we are very modernized. There is no such, I do not believe that there is such thing as identity anymore. 12:38 GS: Okay, what were the gender roles like in your household for your parents growing up? How would they when you were an adult, raising your children what were the gender roles and what are your views on how gender roles are in society today? 12:55 VF: Yeah, it was, I have to tell you it was brutal. It was extremely inhumane the way women were treated when I was growing up. Women had certain roles and they could not do beyond what they ̶ Other than looking beautiful and making babies they did not have any ̶ and laundry and food shopping, they did not have any more except, especially my household, where my father did pretty much all, although even though my mother made all this daily decisions, it was my father who would give the flag, giving the final word, you know, even if even in the on everyday basis when they shared decision-making process. It was always known that the women the secondary citizen, you know the man are the one who make the decision. 13:48 GS: Do you think that was the product of growing up in Beirut or growing up in an Armenian household or some combination of both? 13:55 VF: It is combination because part of it the culture, part of it is Middle Eastern culture that treating of women goes all the way back the biblical times you know. We were not as harsh as some groups who they do vaginal cutting or certain things you know when they treat women. Women do not even have the right to have pleasure, you know, we were not in that circumstances ̶ 14:24 GS: Circumcision? 14:25 VF: Exactly, we were not that extreme but still women were second class citizens. 14:31 GS: What about with you and your wife as you raised your children in your household? What were the gender roles there? 14:39 VF: I think the switch happened automatically because first of all my wife was an American. She knew about how things work in this country much better. So I had to listen to her most of the time, you know, what to do and how to solve certain problem and she always came up with good ideas. I almost had the secondary role, you know, my role was mostly to educate my children, to make sure that they have good education, and but most of the decision-making was done by, you know, Suzanne. 15:15 GS: Okay, and what are your thoughts on gender roles today in society? 15:23 VF: Still, even though you know we live in the United States where we are so open-minded, the old rules are still exist. You know women are mostly sex symbols, you know whether on the TV, in the movies, in daily life even though there are a vast tremendously with feminism and thing, but still the old concept of women are object of pleasure. That still stays. 15:54 GS: Is there any last story you might wanna share that you think would be useful for the record? 16:99 VF: All I can say is that when I came to America, America was not my best choice. I much rather I always thought I will like end up in France or England. For me America was kind of like a middle class, a country of Jeans, and Coke and Hollywood, old you know average level of intelligence. That is how I thought, but it was convenient because I got the student visa, but I am glad I came here. I am glad I came here, because one thing that America gave me, is changed me. I am not an opinionated person like I used to be. I am much more easygoing open-minded person and I consider you know what other people think ̶ there is no right or wrong. That is what United States gave me. 16:52 GS: Okay, well thank you very much for your time. 16:54 VF: Wonderful. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Varoujan Froundjian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f8c93a4a05f7de1958e6c785cb14bf0.mp3 345454f7c0586e378db147101057e209 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12/21/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Victoria Kachadourian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:04:48 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Victoria, after graduating high school, began to work for the navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Victoria Satenig [Kerbeckian] Kachadourian was born in College Point, Long Island, New York to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. After graduating high school, she began to work for the Navy. Later on, she attended night art classes at the Moore Institute for Women in Philadelphia. Victoria moved around a bit but finally settled in Binghamton with her husband, Henry. She is survived by her two children and five grandchildren. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; genocide; food; orphanage; community; church; language; Philadelphia; Christmas; Easter; traditions; Armenia; school; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; genocide; food; orphanage; community; church; language; Philadelphia; Christmas; Easter; traditions; Armenia; school Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Victoria Satenig Kerbeckian Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 21 December 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   (Start of Interview)   0:06 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collection Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is December 21, 2016. Can you please state your name for the record?   0:21 VK: Victoria Satenig [Kerbeckian] Kachadourian.   0:26 JK: Where were you born?   0:29 VK: College Point, Long Island, New York.   0:32 JK: And when were you born?   0:35 VK: May 24, 1931.   0:41 JK: And who were your parents?   0:46 VK: Sapega and Khoren Kerbeckian.   0:51 JK: And where were they from?   0:55 VK: Arapgir, Turkey.   0:59 JK: Why did they emigrate the USA?   1:02 VK: Because of the Turkish Genocide.   1:07 JK: What were their reasons for coming to America, what circumstances occurred?   1:16 VK: Because of the Turkish Massacre, they were being slaughtered. My mother’s father was slaughtered in front of grandmother’s eyes. And there was some other things that happened that I do not I want to tell you, that were pretty bad.   1:43 JK: Growing up, what was your household like, did you guys speak Armenian or English or both?   1:52 VK: We spoke both languages from the time we were small, you know hearing our parents speak in Armenian, that was how we learned it, from our parents, and it was easier to, you know, converse with them in their own language.   2:17 JK: Did you learn how to write Armenian, or just speak it.   2:21 VK: Just speak it because unfortunately where they taught Armenian in those days was at the church and the church was downtown New York City and it was very difficult for my parents because they had a fruit and vegetable store which they tended and my grandmother took care of us a lot of the times , they sat– so–   2:55 JK: And that was how you communicated with your grandmother, Armenian. Did you attend Armenian language school or bible school?   3:08 VK: Unfortunately it was downtown the church, like I said very difficult for us to, you know, for them to take us.   3:19 JK: Yeah, what was your mother like? Was it like traditional Armenian, what you think of, um stay at home, cook, no?   3:34 VK: She worked with my father, uh they had a fruit and vegetable store and my mother and father worked together and my grandmother was a babysitter.   3:51 JK: Um, for your ancestors in your family, how did they come to U.S.? Through what ports or ships, how did they end up coming here?   4:06 VK: Well, uh, my mother and grandmother went to Cuba and I imagine they came by ship. When they left Turkey, and from there they came to the United– well wait– no they were in Cuba and they stayed there for a while I do not know how long, not too long, from Turkey and uh what happened was, how my mother came to the United States was my father had a friend and he visited him and his wife and his– the friend’s wife– had a picture of my mother and when he saw the picture he wanted to know about her. [laughter] So what happened was he corresponded with her and he went to Cuba and brought her back to the United States. Oh well.   5:39 JK: That is funny. Did they, did they leave Turkey during the genocide or after, your parents?   5:56 VK: I do not really know.   5:59 JK: Was it in between that time period?   6:01 VK: It was, it was like um, mixed up type of thing.   6:09 JK: Yeah.   6:15 VK: Most of the family was gone, my father was gone. It was just my mother and my grandmother who survived in their family, who survived the genocide.   6:35 JK: Now you were saying, you told me that your Grandmother worked in an orphanage?   6:40 VK: She was the head of the orphanage, she became the head of the orphanage in Turkey of–where the children whose parents perished during the genocide. All of the orphans were in this orphanage and Grandma was the head of it, they all looked up to her. That is why in Philadelphia or New York you know there were survivors they all called mom.   7:13 JK: Yeah.   7:14 VK: Even though they had children of their own, she was essentially– when there was a problem in the family like someone was ill or any kind of problem they would call her and right away. If she was in New York she would go to Philadelphia, if she was in Philadelphia she would go to New York. Whoever needed her, she would go.   7:43 JK: Now after the orphanage she moved to Cuba, went to Cuba.   7:47 VK: Yeah, my mother and her went to Cuba.   7:49 JK: And then came to the United States, to Philadelphia or to New York?   7:52 VK: She um, grandma was still in Cuba when my mother, when my father went and brought my mother to the United States, grandma was still in Cuba. Now I do not know if I should tell you this or not but I am going to. I do not know– she had–the way Grandma came to this country–she had a fake marriage with this Armenian guy and it was a marriage but it was never–   8:35 JK: Finished?   8:37 VK: Never um, together in order to come back to the United– to come to the United States she had a fake marriage certificate and that was how she got into the United States. My mother was already here with my father.   8:58 JK: Okay.   8:59 VK: Because he brought her over, he married her in Cuba that was where they got married and when they came here they got married in the Armenian Church so they were married twice. But Grandma, that is how she came and not– [phone rings] She had to improvise, in other words, to get into this country otherwise she could not come in.   9:32 JK: Yeah.   9:32 VK: They had stricter rules for– um– foreigners in those days, now anybody can come in.   9:42 JK: Yeah. How about your father and your Grandfather on your side– on your dad’s side, do you remember?   9:50 VK: I do not remember anything about my Grandfather, um, I do not know anything about him. But I have a great uncle.   10:24 JK: Do you remember how your father came to the United States, or his family?   10:43 VK: Oh, he had brothers here and, through them, I think he came.   10:50 JK: Okay.   10:50 VK: He had family here, he had two brothers Sahag and Philip and I believe that is how he came through. And he lived in Philadelphia with them for a while and then, um, when he got married with my mother then they lived in New York and he had the fruit– started his fruit and Vegetable business.   11:32 JK: Yeah, um, do you have– did when you were growing up– did you have any siblings?   11:46 VK: Him? Me?   11:47 JK: You.   11:48 VK: Yeah I had an older sister, Jervina, she was named Jervina translated into English, Vrejuhi which meant revenge on the Turks that, the Armenians are having children they are not annihilated and a brother, Sarkis.   12:15 JK: And um, what were their ages relative to you?   12:19 VK: My sister was uh three years older and my brother is a year younger than me.   12:27 JK: So you guys all grew up together and you guys lived in New York, right?   12:31 VK: We lived in New York, yeah.   12:34 JK: Was there a large community of Armenians where you lived? Like did you have Armenian friends or family friends?   12:42 VK: Not in the, not at first, not in the area we lived in. College Point is a small town and, uh, no. There was no Armenians in that area. There were Armenians in, um, like, there were little towns like College Point, Fleshing, Long Island that, um, not there. I think there was maybe one other family, I am not sure.   13:21 JK: Um, so did you go to, when you guys lived there, did you guys go to the church at all when you can?   13:29 VK: Rarely.   13:29 JK: Because it was so far?   13:31 VK: You had to take, I think in those days it was trolley cart, nowadays it’d be a bus and then you had to take the elevator or subway. It was like a, really a–   13:44 JK: A commute?   13:45 VK: An hour, almost an hour trip just to get to church.   13:52 JK: Oh my gosh, so would you go on like Holidays or when would you usually go if you did go-like important days?   14:00 VK: Tried to, yeah.   14:04 JK: Yeah. Um, let us see when you guys were in school, when you saw your siblings or whatever did you guys speak Armenian to each other, out and about, or English.   14:23 VK: If we did not want anyone to know what we were saying we speak Armenian [laughs], which was not very nice but [laughs] we did not want them to know.   14:38 JK: Um, a lot of people say um that their parents, like your parents, would speak Turkish if they did not want you to hear what–   14:49 VK: Exactly.   14:52 JK: So that is what your parents did, they spoke Turkish, if they did not want you to know something. Did you pick up on certain things or no?   15:00 VK: No not Turkish, we did not even want to know Turkish.   15:05 JK: Yeah.   15:09 VK: Not they were multi– they picked up English very easily.   15:13 JK: Okay so that is good.   15:17 VK: As a matter of fact my mother went to Flushing High School at night and I would go with her, sometimes, to learn how to read and write.   15:27 JK: Wow.   15:28 VK: Yeah.   15:30 JK: That is nice, so did your mother and father, did they go to high school or college or classes?   15:38 VK: I do not know how, I know my mother was taking some classes, night classes in Flushing High School. I would go with her to learn English. You know, to read and write. 15:52 JK: Yeah.   15:53 VK: Um, but my father was here before her, so he, he knew how to read and write. He knew, um, how to speak English and all that yeah.   16:07 JK: So, he owned the farm stand, the fruit and vegetable stand before your mother came from Cuba?   16:17 VK: That I do not know, that I do not know but I know when, when uh I can remember when I was a kid that he had a store in Flushing– fruit and vegetable store in Flushing and at that time we were living in College Point–   16:46 JK: Yeah.   16:47 VK: And uh um, let us see, then we moved to– from College Point to Flushing so he would not have to commute back and forth.   17:03 JK: Okay now when you were– when you guys were growing up in the area did your dad side have all of his family in the area as well? Or were they all–   17:16 VK: No his two brothers that were in this country lived in Philadelphia.   17:22 JK: Okay.   17:23 VK: One was married and one was single. No, they were both married I think.   17:30 JK: Okay, what about your father’s parents, did they come to America ever or no?   17:37 VK: They were gone.   17:39 JK: They were gone?   17:41 VK: Yep. They were not around.   17:50 JK: Now how did you end up in Binghamton?   18:06 VK: [laughs] Unfortunately, [laughs] the person who came to visit me, when I was living in Philadelphia told my mother someday I am going to marry your daughter and I just looked at him, like who do you think you are. That was how I came to Binghamton because I married a Binghamtonian.   18:35 JK: [Indistinct] Um, how did you, so you went from New York to Philadelphia to Binghamton and then moved around after that, obviously to like–   18:47 VK: Well here yeah, we had different places, in here. We lived Clayton Ave, then Highland Ave, and then came here to Westland Court.   18:59 JK:  Yeah, what was it– when you– when were you– how old were you when you went to Philadelphia or moved there.   19:08 VK: Twenty-seven.   19:08 JK: Twenty-seven? And when you moved there was it with all your family or yourself.   19:14 VK: Just myself.   19:16 JK: And what were you doing there?   19:17 VK: Here?   19:18 JK: In Philadelphia.   19:19 VK: Oh you mean talking about Philadelphia?   19:23 JK: Yeah.   19:23 VK: Oh we moved to Philadelphia, I think I was about um, I thought you were talking about when I came here. I am sorry I misunderstood. Uh, let us see twelve I think, I think I was twelve.   19:38 JK: Oh you were still young and all of your family– now why did you guys move to Philadelphia?   19:45 VK: Because um there were hard times at that time, the depression years and uh my father’s business– he was not making money anymore. So uh we moved to Philadelphia because his two brothers lived here, he had family in Philadelphia. And, uh, that was why he decided to move there. He moved, he went first to you know to establish a place for us to live. And then we all moved.   20:27 JK: Did you like Philadelphia better than New York or vice versa?   20:36 VK: I think that, I think it was a little difficult because it was more sophisticated in New York.   20:46 JK: Yeah.   20:47 VK: You know, even though it was hard sometimes, it was, um, there was everything there and Philadelphia was a little bit quiet– Well where we moved it was like a small town, it was called Wissinoming and it was just like uh a cute little town but it was, it did not have that excitement of New York City because you know once in a while we went to the city as kids, go to Radio City and, you know.   21:19 JK: Yeah, enjoy yourself that is nice. Um when you lived in Philadelphia did you attend Armenian school or church? Did they have a big Armenian community or no? 21:30 VK: Fairly big, but everything was far, everything was far and um it was hard to take, you know like um when they taught the Armenian classes it was at night and uh if my parents were working like during the day if their working and at night it was hard for them to– like it was downtown.   22:03 JK: Yeah.   22:04 VK: You had to take a trolley car, at that time it was a trolley car and then you had to take the elevated in Philadelphia to get downtown and it was not convenient, it was very difficult. Although I wanted to learn, it did not happen.   22:25 JK: Okay, now what were some of the traditions in your household growing up that you can remember, that consisted of Armenian traditions and upbringings?   22:44 VK: [laughs] I got to think about that one, that a little–   22:48 JK: Now just for the record your parents are both Armenian, a hundred percent Armenian correct, yes, okay.   23:01 VK: [speaks Armenian and laughs] Yep, yep I never knew my grandparents, my father’s parents, I never knew them but I had a great uncle and we essentially called him grandfather and, um, that was, that was nice you had relatives at least.   23:29 JK: Yeah. Now for the traditions, do you remember like any favorite ones or– in the house with like food or crafts or anything that you guys did?   23:58 VK: Well, we always had Armenian food.   24:04 JK: Yeah.   24:06 VK: And we wanted to be, you know, sometimes you want to be more Americanized, you know, like a brat [laughs] but um yeah, food was Armenian I miss it all, I miss it all because both my grandma and my mom were good cooks. As a matter of fact, my sister was a good cook too but now Victoria took over [laughs] she was a pretty good cook, I do not know about Armenian food though, um. No I know my grandmother loved to sew, so I learned that from her, you know sewing, I have not done it for a while but I used to sew quite a bit um what else. Drawing, painting you know artwork, I loved that, that is about it.   25:13 JK: Nice, um, what about holidays like Armenian Christmas or Easter would you guys do anything like that, what kind of tradition.   25:23 VK: Yep, made special foods and went to church and it was like a festive day and uh if we were near relatives you know we’d visit each other homes and be together like a family you know if we had cousins or um that type of relatives, we had, wherever we lived we had cousins and aunts and uncles. We would go to each other’s house get together for the Easter or Christmas something like that.   26:05 JK: Nice, now you guys made um [speaking Armenian], right? and did you guys do the eggs or–?   26:16 VK: Yeah.   26:16 JK: And then play the game.   26:17 VK: Yeah [laughs] whoever cracked the egg well then you lose the egg to that person you know it was like a game.   26:27 JK: Yeah, that is so nice, um, when you went to high school or when you were younger you went to school did you guys want to assimilate to the– more of the American culture or did you guys keep your traditions, like you and your brother and sister?   26:48 VK: We kept our traditions.   26:52 JK: Yeah, when you were growing up– 26:54 VK: But when we went to school and you know you were a new student going to that school you just transferred when the teacher asks you about your religion or your background and you tell them, they did not know what we were talking about.   27:14 JK: Oh really.   27:19 VK: Or they sort of looked down at their nose at you, yeah you know you got that, discrimination, not all the schools. When we were younger ̶   27:33 JK: Because you were not certain ̶   27:37 VK: Was not American.   27:40 JK: That is crazy.   27:41 VK: And they never knew what our, some of them did not even know what Armenian was.   27:45 JK: Really?   27:46 VK: Yeah.   27:47 JK: So you were one of the few, or the only ones who were Armenian in your schools right, or did you know any other Armenians.   27:58 VK: No, from the time I was little I cannot remember about other kids you know but um, in my class I was the only– my brother and sister and I would be the only ones.   28:12 JK: Wow.   28:13 VK: In the very beginning because where we lived there were not Armenians near us and um, uh like they would not be in that range for that school so uh you were out of loop. You know what discrimination means.   28:43 JK: Yeah, so do you want to stop here or ̶   28:53 VK: I do not care whatever you want to do.   28:54 JK: Okay.   28:57 VK: There was a transition when we um moved to– right before we moved to Philadelphia, times were very bad, it was the depression time and all that. So uh, when we moved to Philadelphia we went to the area where my father’s two brothers lived. So he bought a house right down the street, a block or two away from where they lived so there was a family connection with his family.   29:40 JK: Oh wow.   29:40 VK: Yeah, so um that was how we moved to Philadelphia because of him going to be near his brothers when things got tough and my great uncle uh was hospitalized and he was dying so– at that time after he passed away my grandmother had to um, get a job and she was working in a– sewing– an Armenian man had like a business where the women did the sewing, I do not know exactly what they were making but she um, she had lived there in College Point for a little while and then uh, she left most of her things in College Point whatever she had and moved to Philadelphia to live with us. So that was what was kind of hard for her but.   31:05 JK: Yeah, do you have any other family members that you know of that are not living in the U.S.?   31:14 VK: Yeah, my grandmother’s brother, well I think he passed away but his son um, they live in France, he has a family and uh his daughter came and stayed with us.   31:36 JK: Oh wow.   31:17 VK: She was really ̶   Verginne, I think um your dad met her, Verginne. And uh yeah her sister and she, she went over when he was dying and then she had a sister too in France, and grandma went over when she was passing away so. She was really something else.   32:06 JK: She went all over the place.   32:13 VK: I do not even know how she did it, I hated traveling, I did not like going on ship and I hate going on a plane. I do not know how she did it. She had, she had some vitality, yeah.   32:24 JK: Did she ever go to Armenia or?   32:27 VK: Armenian, no.   32:29 JK: No, never.   32:30 VK: Not back.   32:31 JK: Never went back.   32:32 VK: No. never went back.   32:33 JK: Have you ever been to Armenia. If you got the chance would you like to go?   32:35 VK: I do not think so.   32:38 JK: No?   32:39 VK: I do not think so, I think uh it is– where they were it was like a killing field and I do not think I would want to– I know it is not like that now but.   32:56 JK: Just the memories.   32:57 VK: Yeah.   32:59 JK: Did they actually go through the march, the– through the desert or no?   33:05 VK: I do not know, my mother did not tell me everything.   33:10 JK: Yeah.   33:10 VK: As a matter of fact, I think some things happened to her that she would not speak of so. When she said Turk it was like ‘Turque’ like–   33:33 JK: Yeah.   33:35 VK: Although she said that if it was not for their neighbor– Turkish neighbor– who hid them from the Turks, they hid them and I do not know they hid them, my mother and grandmother. They saved their lives, that neighbor so that one, one neighbor was a good person.   34:07 JK: So they would come around, the Turkish soldiers and take them?   34:10 VK: Oh yeah just ̶   34:12 JK: That is crazy ̶  oh sorry go head.   34:16 VK: Like I said, you know they beheaded my grandfather in front of my grandmothers so, and they committed atrocities and they come back and try to, you know, but the second time around the neighbor, the Turkish neighbor hid them so they could not you know do more damage than they did in the beginning.   34:42 JK: Were there a lot of Armenians in that area?   34:45 VK: Oh yeah, Arapgir ̶   34:48 JK: So a lot of Armenians and Turkish, right?   34:51 VK: I do not know if, I do not know if it was even or what the ratio was but they lived together, they were neighbors, you know they were friendly but this Atatürk I do not know what his game was just to get rid of all the Armenians or what, I do not know what his aim was to annihilate them but it did not work.   35:21 JK: Exactly.   35:21 VK: It did not work. Like everybody that came here had children.   35:28 JK: Hmm and grew, now um where they grew up, what did– in Turkey, did they– because I know Armenians who grew up in there, their last name like Kerbeckian it means something of their occupation. Do you remember what it means?   35:58 VK: I think it, I do not know if it means snake or not [laughs], I think I am not sure.   36:17 JK: I can ask my mom, because she said Kachadourian which is your name now from grandpa that uh it means to catch or keep the cross, hold on to the Armenian cross.   36:33 VK: Really?   36:34 JK: That was she was saying?   36:36 VK: Oh well ask her what Kerbeckian means.   36:40 JK: Okay, I will write that down. Now do you remember if they had church in Turkey or like churches or anything?   36:52 VK: They had church, yeah.   36:53 JK: They did?   36:54 VK: As far as I know they had church, because I do not think my, my um mother’s, my grandmother’s– I think one of my grandmother’s brothers was a priest yeah.   37:17 JK: Oh wow.   37:21 VK: I think so, yeah they had church.   37:28 JK: Now going back to your life here in America um how– did you go to college or attend night school or anything like that or have a job growing up?   37:44 VK: When I was growing up in– um– I could not get a job, my brother could not get a job because we both look like little kids, you know they just look at you and forget about it. So uh I did not get a job until I was seventeen, after I graduated so at seventeen I got a job for the– with the Bell telephone and then uh after that I started working for the Navy, so. But in the beginning when I was in school I could never get one. My brother could not get one either until he graduated.   38:30 JK: Wow.   38:31 VK: And tried to look a little bit older.   38:38 JK: Um, so did you attend college or–   38:43 VK: Night school.   38:45 JK: And where did you attend night school?   38:49 VK: Uh, what the heck was the name of that school?   38:59 JK: The art school in Philadelphia?   39:03 VK: I went to, one was oh I cannot remember the name of it now, the Moore Institute for Women, I went at night and then I think the other one was a, there is another art school for– I am trying to think of the name of it. I have to look in the directory or something, there is another art school for everybody and then I went there. I went to school five nights a week and then there was a– oh I cannot remember, if you look up the thing about art schools in Philadelphia directory you will probably find out. I went to three different schools five nights a week.   39:53 JK: Wow and you worked as well right.   39:56 VK: Yeah so, I never got home before say nine thirty, ten o’clock at night.   40:03 JK: Oh my goodness.   40:07 VK: I do not know how I did it, three different schools for five nights a week.   40:13 JK: Wow, with your other jobs as well, that is crazy.   40:17 VK: Yeah for quite a few years I did that.   40:20 JK: Very busy.   40:22 VK: Yeah.   40:23 JK: Now any of those schools– were there any Armenians or it was just yourself.   40:32 VK: No, it no Armenians that I knew of, I knew one Armenian girl, Sophie, she went to um, Moore Institute but she went during the day, she won a scholarship.   40:52 JK: Oh wow.   40:54 VK: And the girl who won the scholarship in my class, I could just kill her– she was my friend she was at that time, she was taking day class– she would go to art school on Saturdays so she had more in her portfolio than I did. I only had what I had in high school I did not know you had to add to it and uh which I did not think was fair. And I still do not think it was fair only your work from your high school that you–   41:38 JK: Went to?   41:39 VK: And so she got the scholarship because she had bigger portfolio and uh she said to my art teacher, well who was second, and he saw me standing there but finally he blurted it out.   42:02 JK: You [laughs], rather have not known. That is crazy. Do you guys ever keep in touch out at all when you were– after that or no?   42:08 VK: No right before graduation she moved–her family moved to Florida so we lost complete touch. Yeah, she was my– you– a friend of mine.   42:22 JK: Yeah.   42:23 VK: Like, we both liked the same things like ballet and art and stuff like that so you but um yeah, oh well, who knows.   42:35 JK: Now during your twenties um or like even before that did you guys have any Armenian dances or anything?   42:43 VK: Oh yeah.   42:46 JK: And that is where you communicate with like everyone from the community.   42:51 VK: Yep.   42:51 JK: Were they in Philadelphia or just around Philadelphia or?   42:56 VK: Yeah in um they would have it at a hotel or they would have it in the church hall. It was just you know it was like a getting together with your own age and it was nice.   43:12 JK: Oh that is nice.   43:13 VK: Yeah and you would meet somebody, they would take you home from the dance or they would ask you out for a date or you know. It was, it was nice.   43:27 JK: That is cute. Okay. We can–   43:31 VK: We associated with Armenians.   43:36 JK: Now, growing up, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian, like did you feel pressure?   43:43 VK: No, I did not feel any pressure but if there was, most of the guys that I– well let us see, well there were some guys that outside of the Armenian loop, but um it was in my mind try to marry an Armenian.   44:09 JK: You wanted to keep–   44:10 VK: And there were some nice, really nice guys– Armenians good looking yeah they are all gone now, unbelievable, their all gone every single one. Yeah I remember walking down the hall, my girlfriend says do you know him, I said yeah from church [laughs] and he has gone. “Do you know him” you know like he was the big shot in school, you know I was like a meekly–‘yeah I know him!’   44:54 JK: Of course, that is so funny.   45:04 VK: As a matter of fact, I had a cousin who was really handsome, he was so handsome and he died of cancer– young– and his little brother, before he passed away, his little brother was hit truck and ran into the street to catch a ball, he was around five years old. My aunt was deva– oh devastated, she was devastated, never the same. You never know. A lot of them are gone; a lot of them are gone. Grandpa says how come we are still around [laughs] I said shhh shh.   46:01 JK: [laughs] That is so funny, now when you met your husband, grandpa did you know he was Armenian before you guys communicated and all that?   46:20 VK: Um, I met his brother at a dance.   46:24 JK: Was it an Armenian dance or?   46:28 VK: Armenian dance, yeah, my cousin and I, this fella that I knew, he was an Armenian hairdresser in New York City, I knew him from other dances and when were downstairs at the hotel, at the desk um he said, you know, come to our party, we are having a party in our room, so we said okay because we were together, my cousin and I. We would not go alone, so uh and I knew the guy, he was a nice guy. Um, not one of those you know–   47:06 JK: Trashy.   47:09 VK: So any how we went there, we went up to his– the room and they are having the party and we were in a foyer like you know a hallway, we were sitting down talking to each other, my cousin and I and we did not go into the party so uh. Art comes in opens the door, we need another girl for our party. So I say, I look at my cousin and okay, and he says oh no just one girl and I said I do not think so. [laughs] So then when we were leaving we stopped at the desk, my cousin and I stopped at the desk at the– asked the girl at the counter, what time the bus was coming so we could go to Silver Bay to Toms River and um, who pops up is Art.   48:14 JK: Again, which is your husband’s brother, for the record.   48:19 VK: Yeah, so he wanted to know my name and address, I said this guy does not have a pencil and paper he was not going remember. My name was long, my address was long and I said, I just rattled it off and guess what, the next thing I know your grandfather pops up at our door.   48:48 JK: That is crazy.   48:51 VK: I mean it is like ̶   48:52 JK: How did he remember it, oh my gosh?   48:54 VK: I do not know how he remembered but he remembered it because. [laughs] So any how um I cannot remember if he called beforehand or if he just popped up in his uniform, he was in the Air Force.   49:15 JK: And this was in Silver Bay?   49:17 VK: Your grandfather and oh my mother and grandmother– and I say, I said to myself who the hell does this guy think he is. [laughs] I did not want anything to do with him. [speaks Armenian] Yeah so what, who cares. [laughs] And he gets himself stationed in New Jersey from uh where was he was he–   49:49 JK: In Silver Bay?   49:50 VK: He was in Texas or where he was some place, I cannot remember or down south someplace– the air base– gets himself stationed in New Jersey [laughs] and that was the beginning of– but I just– I did not think much of it when I– because I thought ‘he is too cocky, he too sure of himself, he is too– you know– who does he think he is?’   50:22 JK: He is a hot shot.   50:24 VK: Yeah and grandma– my mom– oh [speaks in Armenian] [laughs] so we just started writing to each other, you know, just casual letters. And when he got stationed in Jersey, like he would tell me when he had time off or something and he– we would go to Jersey and stay at the house. It was just getting to know each other. But he was so sure of himself and I– that is what I did not like. [laughter]   51:06 JK: That is so funny.   51:08 VK: Oh we went to the supermarket yesterday– every place we stopped at, you know, that we had to do business with, he had the people in stitches and I am just rolling my eyes.   51:27 JK: Nothing has changed.   51:33 VK: No! I am just–   51:39 JK: Too funny. I cannot believe he went to New Jersey, chased you down.   51:49 VK: Oh, boy! Yeah he, he asked me to marry him, I think, was it the second time we met? I think so–   52:07 JK: You can ask grandpa. The second, the second time you met, he asked you to marry him? Oh my goodness.   52:15 VK: I think so.   52:16 JK: Did–what did you say?   52:24 VK: His mother wanted him to marry an Armenian girl, but– oh she was a witch.   52:28 JK: She was?   52:28 VK: She hated– she bought this house, or she had him buy this house. It was like a rat trap. It was awful, it was filthy, I mean that place was a nightmare. And she had me scrubbing around the floors and all, I almost lost–   52:53 JK: Like Cinderella?   52:53 VK: I almost lost Corrine.   53:01 JK: Oh my god. When you were pregnant?   53:05 VK: She called me lazy so my grandmother was with me at that time and she– we went to the house to the house to clean up because she kept calling me lazy and I did not do anything so in order to pacify this woman, I started getting– scoop down– scooch down and started rubbing the baseboards because it was cat pee all over the place. And that night, her blood was all over the sheets and she said ‘look what you did to my’–it was her fault because she was calling me lazy. She was a nightmare. I do not know why she never liked me.   54:08 JK: That is terrible!   54:09 VK: Never. Never said a kind word.   54:14 JK: Aw, I am sorry. Terrible.   54:16 VK: But he idolizes her.   54:25 JK: But he– she wanted grandpa, your husband, to marry Armenian for sure?   54:30 VK: For sure.   54:33 JK: So even all his– all of his siblings and everything like that, all Armenian? Yeah? Crazy.   54:43 VK: No, Louise married a Greek, Carl married an odar [stranger, foreigner in Armenian], Oslin married an odar, Art was the only one who married an– Adrian’s not full blooded Armenian, I think her– she is half and half.   55:15 JK: Because I know her, her mother, she ex–went through the Armenian genocide like your family. And she was, remember how she was over one hundred years old and they could not find her birth certificate because they had to leave everything and they did not know how old she was.   55:39 VK: Oh my god!   55:40 JK: Yeah, isn’t that crazy? Now did your family have to leave everything behind when they went to Cuba? Yeah?   55:47 VK: As a matter of fact, when we moved to Philadelphia we left everything behind.   55:54 JK: Really?   55:54 VK: Yeah and when we moved– before we went to Philadelphia from Flushing, we moved to Long Island City into an apartment building and we had to leave everything behind then too.   56:14 JK: Wow.   56:14 VK: Yeah. So we– you know, everything was starting from scratch.   56:25 JK: Do you guys have any pictures or passports or anything like that from Turkey or– that you can remember like birth certificates or all that is–   56:41 VK: No birth certificate or something like that, no. I do not know if there is anything from Turkey or not, I do not think so. There was a fire, a lot of things were destroyed in the fire. So, that was at the apartment in Philadelphia.   57:09 JK: Yeah. Do you think grandpa has anything from–   57:17 VK: He might, I do not know. He might because they still have the old house and whatever Louise did not take out of there that was important, you know, it would still be there.   57:32 JK: Yeah. So when you were in– la– one of the last questions–so when you were in Silver Bay in Toms River, New Jersey, did you live there like during different periods of time or just like for the summer or–?   57:54 VK: Mostly it is the summer or mostly if it is in the like offseason it is just to go and make sure everything is working in the house to adjust the heat and everything else and the boats and whatever, make sure everything is okay.   58:17 JK: And when you guys lived there did you guys– did they have any Armenian churches or anything like that?   58:23 VK: Yeah there was an Armenian church in New Jersey.   58:27 JK: Did you guys attend that when you could?   58:28 VK: Yeah. If we were– If we get up early enough, [laughs] getting there on a Saturday night or Saturday afternoon.   58:44 JK: Did you like attending Armenian Church when you were little? Did you like attending church?   58:50 VK: Yeah.   58:50 JK: Yeah?   58:51 VK: Yeah.   58:51 JK: Were there little kids your age or people your age?   58:54 VK: Yeah, in Philadelphia, yeah.   58:58 JK: Oh that is nice.   59:00 VK: Yeah, Philadelphia, let us see– get dressed up and–   59:07 JK: Yeah, get all ready.   59:09 VK: Yeah, I liked going to church. It was hard, though, you know, it is not like here where you could just–   59:16 JK: In Binghamton, yeah, you drive.   59:18 VK: Yeah. It was– you had– and then Sunday it was hard because like the busses and things did not run like they would during the week where people always were going to work or what and they had more of a schedule. Unless you had somebody to drive you, because at that time we did not have a car. Only when my brother, my father bought the car, but he never drove the car. My brother drove– waited until he was old enough to drive. [laughter]   59:59 JK: Did you ask your brother to take you to all these places like, like he was your chauffeur at all or no?   1:00:19 VK: No. Once in a while, very rarely. Because I would go with my girlfriend or my cousin or something like that. Yeah sometimes, he would just drop us off or sometimes, yeah, sometimes he would go with us.   1:00:25 JK: Well that is nice. Okay, anything you would like to add before I finish?   1:00:34 VK: It has been a long journey, a real long journey. You know, there is a saying [speaks Armenian] ‘Where were we, where are we now?’   1:00:36 JK: Yeah. [laughter]   1:00:51 VK: I like the sayings the Armenians have.   1:00:55 JK: Very clever.   1:00:57 VK: Yeah. We were just two people, now we have got a big family.   1:01:00 JK: Yeah, it is so nice.   1:01:08 VK: We are so lucky to have your mom, she is a good person.   1:01:14 JK: That is funny, Uncle Art, you know how he, he set you up with grandpa, he– they were in an Armenian church in New Jersey, and then he set your son up, my dad with my mom, Nora.   1:01:33 VK: Wow. [laughs]   1:01:37 JK: I think, because they were all sitting–   1:01:38 VK: He is a matchmaker!   1:01:42 JK: I know. I think they were sitting at different tables and they– Uncle Art and your son, my dad, went over and sat with them because he wanted to– I think that was how– I think that was what happened, I have to ask.   1:02:05 VK: It is great! Oh my gosh, oh my gosh. He was sitting back in bin like a godfather. Oh boy.   1:02:13 JK: It is crazy.   1:02:16 VK: Oh, there was a time when– there was a time in our marriage where it almost–   1:02:24 JK: Really?   1:02:24 VK: Because of her ̶   1:02:27 JK: Oh no.   1:02:27 VK: Because of– and the weeds.   1:02:33 JK: Oh yeah.   1:02:34 VK: Oh and you know my grandmother would say [speaks Armenian] ‘she is crazy, do not pay any attention to her.’   1:02:43 JK: Exactly, exactly.   1:02:50 VK: Yeah.   1:02:50 JK: Okay, well I have to later– sometime later we will interview you for– because I have to do more about your–   1:02:59 VK: Fun! I enjoyed them, all of them were– just so cute together. And you could not part them. You could not part those two. Everything they did, they did together. They were the– you know the best kids, I am telling you, they were so good. I do not know what happened to them! [laughs] Do not tell them that! Yeah, that– you know I never thought that– they were just, they got along with each other and whatever she did, he followed, you know, where she went, he would follow and it was great. I said to my husband, I said– grandpa– I said you know I said we were very fortunate, the two of them. She went to college, he goes– same place! And then he goes to Syracuse. When she– it was, I do not know, it was good. I just wish she did not live so far.   1:04:22 JK: I know Michigan.   1:04:24 VK: Yeah. I hate driving out there, it is a long drive, and I hate flying out there. I do not like either one. And she wanted to come for Christmas but I said you were already here, you know, and then to come again I–   (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Victoria Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aee558c9ba7ec51ab55805db075aaaf7.mp3 b8210ff9bb2f11c31390f8bd395962de Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gary Rejebian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 41:08 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Date of Interview 6/22/2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Gary was born in Kentucky and grew up in Binghamton NY. His gradnparents immigrated to the United States during the Armenian Genocide. He went to Hamilton University and currently holds a masters in Journalism from Northeastern University. "}">Gary Rejebian grew up in Binghamton, NY. His gradnparents immigrated to the United States during the Armenian Genocide. Rejebian earned his Bachelor's degree in Creative Writing from Hamilton College and his Master's degree in Journalism from Northeastern University.  He currently lives in Chicago area with his wife and two sons. Keywords <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14593,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenian; Kentucky; Binghamton; Language; Armenian Culture; Armenian Politics; Armenian Genocide; Armenian Church"}">Armenian; Kentucky; Binghamton; Language; Armenian Culture; Armenian Politics; Armenian Genocide; Armenian Church Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Gary Rejebian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 22 June 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   (Start of Interview)   0:02 GS: Okay. So ready to go, my name is Gregory Smaldone. I am working with Binghamton University in the Special Collection’s Library on the Armenian Oral History Project. Would you please state your name for the record?   0:13 GR: I am Gary Rejebian.   0:17 GS: Okay, Gary. Can you please tell me where you grew up?   0:23 GR: I was brought up in Binghamton.   0:25 GS: What year you were born?   0:27 GR: 1959 in Groton, Connecticut.   0:30 GS: Okay, who were your parents?   0:32 GR: My parents are George and Marianne Rejebian. My father George is a Binghamton native. He was born here in 1929.   0:43 GS: Okay, were your parents immigrants or were they born here?   0:47 GR: No, all four my grandparents came around the time of the genocide. The Rejebian grandfather came actually before the genocide. He was born in 1892 in Hajin, Cilicia/Armenia that is near Adana and so his family was aware of the massacres there in the 1890s and he came as a teenager. There was another Hajinsi by the name of Garig Manian whose family is very well known in California and he came with Garig Manian’s name in his pocket and was, he was a laborer in the Endicott Johnson Shoe Factory and then he eventually he opened Orthotic shop, not a shop, but a shoe repair shop, but he is specialized in orthotics in downtown Binghamton. My mother’s parents were both from the town of Çomaklı also in Cilicia, near Mount Archelaus. They have kind of a different trajectory that Grandfather Garabed came to New York and worked for about ten years before returning to Beirut to marry my grandmother Dikranouhi who was four at the time of the genocide escaped with her grandmother and her lame uncle. They wandered around, I believe even as far as Egypt before eventually settling in Beirut for probably almost ten years. The grandmother Rejebian was a teenager at the time of the genocide and really suffered the worst of the marches and the refugee camps. She also ended up in Beirut and then she was a relative of a fellow in Binghamton ̶  I am trying to ̶  Ketchoyan, and so Ketchoyan was good friends with my grandpa, Peter Rejebian and then he made this introduction at that time it was now 1928. The quotes were closed and Dikranouhi Zapabourian was her maiden name, made her way to Cuba. Grandpa went to Cuba on a gambling junket, married her there and brought her back to Binghamton in 1928.   3:53 GS: Okay, So let us talk a little bit about your childhood. Did you have any brothers and sisters growing up?   3:58 GR: I have one sister, Vivian, who practiced here. We both went through Binghamton high school and she practiced as an orthodontist in Binghamton for a number of years and that is ̶   4:12 GS: Is she older or younger than you?   4:14 GR: She is not quite two years younger.   4:18 GS: Now, did your parents speak Armenian?   4:21 GR: My parents, interestingly, both of them spoke the language but not insistently with us.   4:32 GS: So, they were both fluent?   4:33 GR: They ̶  my father, so my father’s mother, her dad was a school teacher and photographer. So she had a rather more educated knowledge of Armenian and Grandpa Rejebian came from a town that had a very, very idiomatic dialect which was probably about half Turkish. So he had an interesting mix of knowing his father’s dialect although he did not formally speak Turkish and yet every once a while he would come out with these million dollar Armenian words that he had learnt from his mother. So he was, you know, they were of course both were speaking fluent in the language, my mom ̶  I do not think my dad really ever read it fluently and my mom used to read it a bit. But they both communicated with their parents in a mix of Armenian and English.   5:48 GS: Now, did you and your sister grow up speaking Armenian in the household?   5:52 GR: No, no. Entirely English. I have moved ̶  I did my college at Hamilton in New York; I went to North Western for Journalism School for Master’s degree At North Western. My wife is born in Chicago but her family was both from Istanbul. He parents were college educated there. So, you know, the long and short of it was you have married into a Bulsetsi family and you have no choice you need to learn Armenian.   6:31 GS: So you had to learn Armenian later in life?   6:33 GR: I learned it. I learned to read on the L on the subway. I would take my flash card with me and learn a letter a day ̶   6:43 GS: So, your parents did not have you attend any Armenian Language School?   6:46 GR: There was not really that option. I mean I suppose you know there were old ladies who try to teach letters here and there in Sunday school ̶   6:57 GS: But there was never any formal?   6:59 GR: No, the community was not that big. I mean it was not so bad really, there were probably thirty to forty maybe even fifty of us, kids in my childhood, maybe closer to forty altogether. But it was still a small parish and, and we were lucky to get together socially. My mum and her best friend ran the church youth group. So, they had regular ̶  We had regular get together but we did not have any kind of a formal schooling program or anything.   7:40 GS: Okay, what were some ways in which your parents tried to maintain a sense of your Armenian identity and your Armenian heritage growing up?   7:49 GR: Well, they were, they both came from families that were very close to the church. My dad grew up on Park Avenue. Cross Street on Park Avenue within blocks of the church his elementary school, long fellow school; what is there now, I think a supermarket, um, was four blocks from the church. I mean that was an Armenian ghetto neighborhood around Saint Gregory’s. And um, so my entre childhood he was Parish Council or you know, we were in Church every Sunday, I mean within that has been my habit also, um, and my mother’s family was also very close to the church. So, I think it was more a matter of that was our nucleus of our closest nucleus of friends um, and that was our sense of community. We lived it in other ways, you know close to all of our grandparents I was lucky that I knew all four of my grandparents, um, what else would you be looking for, I mean ̶   9:16 GS: You said that, that was your closest sense of community, so your community was fundamentally an Armenian community growing up?   9:23 GR: Yeah, I mean it was very much a sense of one big family.   9:29 GS: Where was the central location for the Armenian community?   9:32 GR: Oh, it was definitely the church.   9:34 GS: And how frequently there would some sort of meeting at the church; obviously there were not weekly church service?   9:40 GR:  Well, actually my parents, yeah there were actually. By the time we got to, you know, grade school age, the people of my parent’s generation had made a commitment that although the Parish had not a regular ̶  It had you know you can check the church history there were periods of regular of Pastorship, but there had not been a pastor in the church for quite a while ̶   10:10 GS: So, you started going to church at the time when ̶  Because before you were growing up there had been periods where the community relied on visiting preachers or splitting preaches ̶   10:23 GR: That was the case but then, you know one of the things that was distinctive about a community like this is that many of the ̶  the founders were ̶  Their families remained in the church and their kids came back or never left and you did not necessarily have a huge influx of other new families that created other new generations in the church. So. it was like this one big long extended lifeline but what I meant to say before was ̶  People like my dad went away for education came back, established their businesses or their practices and, but when they sort all have ̶  we kids around the same age; give or take you know five or ten years in each direction, they made a commitment that they needed to have a full-time priest. And our childhood pastor, father Gorger Kalian who after seven years in the Parish moved back to his native California, was the first graduate of the Saint Nerses seminary and had a good long run here of seven years as the pastor of the church and so we had a very active community for a small community it was enough to keep going on a regular basis.   12:05 GS: Early you talked to me about an Oral History Project you did of the founders of the Binghamton Armenian community. Would you like to a little bit talk about the context in which you conducted it? Who you spoke to, somethings you learned?   12:22 GR: Sure, so the project was initiated by the Roberson Center for Arts and Sciences. The two curators, who landed the grant Ross Maguire and Michel Morison, created a project to do an ethnic biography of the community fourteen different ethnic communities. So, I after graduate school, came home for the Christmas break, my mother casually mentioned that “Oh, they are doing something with immigration history at Roberson.” I went over there, Ross told me just the beginnings of the project, they had maybe been about a year into it, and I did not even ask him when do I start. I said I will be back on Monday. And I did not leave for a year and I just sort of dug in and did the world history interviews in the Armenian community, collecting artifacts at that time they were tons of, not only photos but objects and all kinds of other memorabilia that really told the story of the community. So it was a great time to do work like that because although people like, I am trying to remember so that was (19) ̶ , it was shortly after my grandfather died but he still had contemporaries who were living and lucid, and certainly people like my dad were very aware of whatever they knew they shared. So we mapped out, how did we do it, we mapped out clans and arcs of different stories. I also did a project like this in Chicago and that was much more complex because you have many more moving parts. In the Binghamton community, you had a few outliers like Kevork ̶  who was from Istanbul but most people’s families were from different areas of Cilicia, they came from you know probably half a dozen towns and there was a high degree of inter-relationship. So ̶   14:57 GS: And now were the people you were studying what you had considered the founders of the Armenian Binghamton Community?   15:04 GR: Oh, yeah we definitely hit a number of them, but you know ̶   15:09 GS: What did you learn? What would you say was an important lesson you learned about the nature of how the Armenian community in Binghamton came to be?   15:19 GR: Well, it was interesting to me to see how it elucidated the other immigration patterns that we were studying, you know this is an area with a huge, had a huge Eastern European community, so the stories were, so there were patterns that were repeated but the significant difference for the Armenians was they came out of the necessity of saving their lives as a result of the genocide where many other communities like the Italians or some of the Eastern European communities came just out of economic opportunity.   16:12 GS: How did that difference manifest itself in the Armenian community do you think? What effects did it have on the trajectory that took on the ways, on the community that was built on the individuals who lived it?   16:26 GR: Well so, I mentioned the connections that people had across the ocean and so there was this magnetic pole of the clans of you know, grandpa knew this Hajinsi who was in Binghamton and had a name and had some body to go to, and then you know the next cycle might be the brother comes or the cousin comes or sponsoring the wife and the wife’s family. Let us see this aunt, that great aunt that I was visiting with just told me tonight that her dad supported her aunt, my grandmother for eight years before she finally got connected with grandpa and got married and got here. So, there were all kinds of different connections the compatriotic for very important in keeping people connected to one another. You could have called them in their day they were the internet of the community. The economic drivers of the patterns you know the fact that America was recruiting these legions of labor to work in the factories was a huge part of how the communities came together. And then what else did I learn, for these first generations there was much more a sense of putting down roots in the foreign land, a sense of the Armenian being the foreigner. What was tremendously different for the experience here was that there might have been, there was definitely some bias by you know the sense of the established society the Anglo-Saxon Protestant American you know white-bread society nobody was standing there with open arms. So there was a sense of adjustment, there was a sense of you know not every, these were families that did not necessarily come educated, that did not know the language, did not know the customs. So they had acclamation periods and there was a drive and a desire to start a new, especially when they really wanted to forget what they left behind. They were not people like the Polish in Chicago who would go back and forth, you know who were here in this country specifically just for economic opportunity. So they created a new Armenia in a sense here by planting down new roots and yet at the same time the distinct characteristic of even these Armenians from small towns and small cities in Cilicia that had previously been settled by, with Protestant missionaries that some of them were educated, valued education and strove to really get established, I mean when you think about my dad the son of a cobbler becoming an orthodontist and graduating from two Ivy league schools in one generation is really astounding in a way.   21:15 GS: Yeah, It is. So let us move on a little bit to your, a little bit more of your adult life. Do you have any children own your own?   21:23 GR: Yes, I have, my wife and I have two sons.   21:27 GS: Let us actually start with your wife because you were saying that her parents from Istanbul how did the two of you meet?   21:32 GR: So, we were [laughs] we were casually introduced through a mutual friend. I was, between college and graduate school went overseas and came to Chicago for the ACYOA sports weekend and when I told my friend Debbie that I was starting graduate school in the fall, she said oh I have a friend who is also in graduate school there. My wife, Sona was in the business program and we ̶  It was not really until halfway through the year that we started sort of socializing and so that was how we got to know one another. She was living in Evanston but she was bouncing between the day and the night program and so she had kind of free time and that was how we got acquainted. I came back to Binghamton. I did not expect to find this immigration history project. I wanted to do it. It really sung to me. I stayed a year, year and a half. My boss said at the end of the grant you know it is time to get a real job and he went off to the Fresno Art Museum actually, amazingly. Then I came back to Chicago where I had you know the opportunity to find a job and settled fairly quickly by June of 1984 then I was working in Chicago again. So, we dated for four years, we married in 1987. Our first born, Nicholas Arakel was born in 1994 and we subsequently adopted a baby boy in Armenia 2000, Andrew Artak. And so they are now 21 and 15.   24:03 GS: Okay, did your wife, does your wife speak Armenian?   24:06 GR: Yeah, she came from a family that wrapped her knuckles if they did not speak Armenian in the house. Her father was already a physician in Turkey. Her mom graduated from lise [Turkish: high school]  Her parents interestingly you know their private language between the two of them was Turkish which really is not much different than people speaking English here but they insisted that their kids learn Armenian fluently even my wife taught in the Armenian school in Chicago, one of the Armenian schools in Chicago. And they, because they were of that some different generation had a different take on things now, my father-in-law ̶  came to the US for residency in family practice. That was in 1953, right before the Cristal ̶  of the Turks [Istanbul pogrom, September events, 6-7 September 1955] against the Greeks in Istanbul. So they basically could not go home. And then you know he had come here with the assistance of a cousin in Washington D.C who helped, then helped him find a job in those days you know Americans were hiring foreign doctors as there was a shortage of physicians and, so he although, at the time did not really know much English at all. They knew French. So, they knew the alphabet but they really did not know the language. And started totally from scratch in fact their stuff was boxed up in Istanbul, you know they really came with nothing.   26:13 GS: So, let us go back to your children. Can you re-introduce them for us?   26:17 GR: Yeah, Nick is twenty-one. He is a third year at Dickinson College in Pennsylvania. He is Economics and Political Science major. Andrew Artak was born in Yerevan. He is fifteen. He is a sophomore at Loyola Academy in Wilmette, Illinois, which is the largest Jesuit high school in the country. Both boys went, Nick also graduated from Loyola.   27:00 GS: And both boys grew up in Binghamton?   27:02 GR: Both boys grew up in Evanston. There is a home we bought which is the town just north of Chicago, we bought our home in 1989 and both kids were ̶  Both kids came home on Christmas Eve and you know, grew up in that home, that same home.   27:22 GS: Did your children grow up speaking Armenian?   27:25 GR: Yeah, actually I have remained ̶  I have become very active in both the church. The Evanston Church had a lot of connection ̶  My mother had a lot of relatives in the Evanston Church and there were a lot of Çomaklıs in the Evanston Church. And I lived all my ̶  the years that I lived in Chicago, I have lived in Evanston. So, that was my home Parish in the area. And So I was very active in the church. I also served as a Parish Council Chairman and a Parish Council member but we also have ̶  We were one of the few towns that has an AGBU center or building and I have been the cultural chair there forever.   28:26 GS: What are your responsibilities as a cultural chair?   28:28 GR: So, I plan community activities and we also have a small Armenian school there. Actually, it was not a small school when Nick was a student, we maxed out the capacity of the school at fifty student and you know it dwindled over time but I got private foundation support to do ethnic identity and cultural heritage programing.   29:03 GS: So, you said the school had about fifty students but fifty kids is about the size of the Armenian community that you said you grew up with. So, would you say a fair statement is that the Armenian community you were growing up in now has a larger population that was speaking Armenian than other Armenian communities at this time? You know at this time in history not over the course of the twentieth century but now well into the twenty first century? Would you say it is a goal?   29:49 GR: I do not know that is a right comparison you are talking about you know, a town, Binghamton had a number of families, Binghamton had you know there is a whole other disenfranchised Tashnag Community if you will that was not active in the church here ̶   30:14 GS: What do you mean by Tashnag community?   30:15 GR: The people who politically were nationalist and/or rather anti-Soviet in their political believes and that community was pretty strong in Binghamton ̶   30:31 GS: Can you explain the difference between the Tashnag and what would ̶  the other community be called?   30:37 GR: Well, I mean that is the name for the political party ̶  Tashnag is the name for the political party I do not know that, you know you could say that there were other political parties that were more sympathetic to the Soviet Republic whether they were Hunchakian or Ramgavar, you know, it was more a nationalist anti-Soviet and other you know. And I am, I am really of a younger generation that did not get involved or enmeshed in that politics ̶  it really did not matter in my generation ̶     31:25 GS: Let us get back to ̶   31:27 GR: But I want to get back to this whole like the idea of ̶  to have, first of all two Armenian schools in Chicago. The main differences that the Antelias Diocese, you could call them the Tashnags had one central Perish in the metropolitan area. So they are much large ̶   31:50 GS: In which metropolitan area?   31:51 GR: In the Chicago metropolitan area, so they had a much larger critical mask where the Diocese churches that were aligned with Etchmiazdin in Soviet Armenia, then Soviet Armenian, had you know, there is a total of eleven communities in the Chicago area right, and so the other, they are only four that were from with Antelias, the others were ̶   32:17 GS: What does this have to do with speaking Armenian now?   32:20 GR: What I was trying to say is that you are looking at this huge community and the fact that this one school had fifty kids does not necessarily equate to the fifty the total population of fifty children ̶   32:36 GS: In Binghamton ̶   32:37 GR: Like that school should have had a hundred and fifty kids right! The building only held fifty and we were happy and fine now we might have a dozen or twenty students.   32:48 GS: So, you would say that the portion of children speaking Armenian is about the same in the Chicago?   32:53 GR: No, no, no, it is gone down and it is much smaller. I do not think, you know the kids I grew up with very few of them really I mean I knew some words but they did not, I did not necessarily feel like I grew up speaking Armenian and my ears were full of it but I did not actually learn the language until I married into a family where there was no choice. So, my contemporaries here did not have that much of a base to build on. You know I am kind of an anomaly.   33:30 GS: Do you think it is important for the Armenian community that people continue speaking the language?   33:35 GR: I think it is a very traditionally held belief and you know sociologists like Anna Bakalian have done studies about, wrote a whole book about from being Armenian to feeling Armenian, what does that mean and how does the community identify and then you got you know other whole programs like birthright Armenian trying to reconnect people who do not have any sense of their Armenian heritage with their homeland.   34:10 GS: What do you think is the ̶  What for you personally is the most important part of your Armenian identity? Would you call yourself an Armenian, an Armenian American, an American Armenian, an American?   34:30 GR: Most important part of the identity is claiming it is your own. However you choose to define it and having affinity for any aspect of the culture that resonates with you personally. So the traditional way of identifying it is based from this perspective of, I am trying to stay focused here but, the traditional perspective is you know; oh, you are not Armenian if you do not speak the language because the language is the window to the culture and all that business. But it is all based on this idea that you are you know an Armenian growing up and an Armenian in an entirely Armenian community of some sort. Even if you were an Armenian in Beirut or Bolis or someplace else where you had a large critical mass and these people could sort of live only amongst themselves or they have so much of a community that their, that defined who they are which was definitely the case in major cities, diaspora cities. Clearly the great divide for coming, Armenians coming to America is that they no longer lived in a hostile land. So, how do I see myself, you asked you know, I mean I would probably say that I am Armenian American.   36:51 GS: And what do you think it is that makes you Armenian?   36:54 GR: Well, what I meant to say ̶   36:57 GS: Is it that you speak the language, is it that you grew up in church, is it that you grew up in Armenian family, is it the food you ate?   37:04 GR: No, it is really a lot of different things. For me, all those are indeed elements of my cultural identity but I still go back to the idea that the sense of claiming it is my own, is the most important element of, you know it matters to me that this is who I am and where I came from, and the part that is living vibrant and now here and now for me is that where I have the opportunity to ̶   38;07 GS: Let us move for a second. You said that you, you know, you raised your children to speak Armenian, you sent them to Armenian school, I am assuming you also raised them in the Armenian Church, what other ways did you try and give them the sense of Armenian identity? What other things did you do with them? Did you ̶   38:26 GR: Well, this is where I was going. I mean what is important to me is that they know some, what is important to me is that they relish living aspects of their cultural history and so I invested a lot of time in producing lectures, theatre, music, art you know anything that showed Armenian creativity or the Armenian story and, so I think an interest in that literature, an interest in that an ongoing interest in it and investing of yourself to keep that living in your community by producing another event, by helping promoted I mean probably people tell me that I am very well known in Chicago because I bother to promote whatever I hear is going on in the community to a larger audience and it matters to me tremendously when a major cultural institution like the Art Institute of Chicago, world famous cultural institution does some exhibit that involves an Armenian like Yusuf Karsh the photographer or you know the University of Chicago is producing a concert by Armenian musicians. And I think that you know, that is where I feel a sense of responsibility as an Armenian to seek out that kind of enrichment in my own life and to help promote it so that the world knows, the larger world, the first that my local Armenian community knows and then the larger world beyond that Armenian community knows the contributions of Armenians through the culture and the world they live in.   41:04 GS: I think that covers about everything, thank you very much for your time.   (End of Interview)   Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gary Rejebian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ef42f023cdd24b329a6cc4fdab547294.mp3 bd3d9b8d02b37a25c41d13f788f02cb2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 6/22/2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jack Injajigian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 27:28 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jack was ordained and has been a deacon for thirteen years. After college, he served on Parish Council and helped organize and work many Armenian events within the church. He is the child of Turkish parents who grew up in Greece before immigrating to the United States in the 1950's."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jack was ordained and has been a deacon for thirteen years. After college, he served on Parish Council and helped organize and work many Armenian events within the church. He is the child of Turkish parents who grew up in Greece before immigrating to the United States in the 1950's."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Jack Injajigian is the child of Armenian parents who grew up in Greece before immigrating to the United States in the 1950's. Injajigian <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jack was ordained and has been a deacon for thirteen years. After college, he served on Parish Council and helped organize and work many Armenian events within the church. He is the child of Turkish parents who grew up in Greece before immigrating to the United States in the 1950's."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">was ordained and has been a deacon for thirteen years. After college, he served on Parish Council and helped organize and work many Armenian events within the church. Injajigian has a Bachelor's degree in Pharmacy from Albany Colloge of Pharmacy of Union University.   Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenia; Armenian Massacre; Turkey; Greece; Endicott Johnson; Ellis Island; Church; Sunday school"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenia; Armenian Massacre; Turkey; Greece; Endicott Johnson; Ellis Island; Church; Sunday school Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Jack Injajigian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 22 March 2016 Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project at Binghamton University’s Special Collection’s Library. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:09 JI: Jack Injajigian. 0:11 GS: Injajigian and how old are you sir? 0:13 JI: I am 64. 0:15 GS: Where were you born? 0:16 JI: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 0:18 GS: Okay, how long did you spend in Binghamton? 0:22 JI: All my life. 0:23 GS: Can you tell me a little bit about your parents please? 0:26 JI: My mother was born in Izmir, Turkey, and she grew up in Greece. Her family moved there in her early age, when she was two years old and she grew up in Greece until 1951 she got married to my dad. My dad was born in Sivas, Turkey, Central Turkey, Sebastia as part of the region of Sebastia. He was born in 1909. He was involved obviously in the Armenian Massacres 1915. He endured that and he came to America in 1921 where he came to Binghamton and actually lived with his sister, his half-sister and his family in Binghamton. And then in 1950 he went to Greece. My parents married and they came to America. And I was born in 1952. 1:27 GS: Now, I am assuming both of your parents spoke Armenian? 1:30 JI: Very much so, yes. 1:32 GS: Okay, what were their professions? 1:35 JI: My mother was, actually my mother was a housewife. My father was a shoemaker. He ̶ when he came when he was of age ̶ he worked for Endicott Johnson which is a local shoe factory here that many people in Binghamton were in this tri-city area were employed in. And then he also opened up a shoemaker shop after several years on the Southside of Binghamton until he retired back in 1975 I believe. 2:14 GS: Okay, what was the highest of level of education your parents received? 2:17 JI: I am going to say my father, I have, my father ̶ I am going to say my mother grammar school, and my father I think he just started working, my father I believe went to the Jarvis Street local school for maybe a year or two that was kind of like a trade school at that time in the neighborhood but I do not believe there is any other formal of education for him. He just went to work. 2:50 GS: Did your parents ever share their story with you of what it was like going through the Armenian genocide? 2:55 JI: My father did several times. He did, I listened to it. He did it among family members and friends. He did and many times like I said and I have not, my only regret like I told you was, it was not documented, as specifically as I would like to have done it, but I knew of it. My mother actually did not come through, obviously did not endure the genocide but again, her story is also one of support of my father and for me. 3:33 GS: Can you share some of your father’s story, whatever you remember? 3:37 JI: Whatever what I remember was the fact that at an early age and at that time he was about six years old when the genocide was when the gendarmes were coming into the villages and cleaning out every one and killing every one. He and his mother fled to a safer ground and then at that time from what he said that they were split, he from the mother and she split from her mother and I guess caught up with the bunch of Kurds and they took him in and basically they took him in until ended up in an orphanage. And after he was there for three or four years until at the age of eleven, twelve years old he came to America through Ellis Island. 4:24 GS: And did he meet up with family in America? 4:26 JI: He met up with family; with his sisters, half-sister through Ellis Island they had located him and he ended up in Binghamton, New York. 4:35 GS: Do you have any siblings? 4:38 JI: No. 4:39 GS: Okay, so you are an only child. 4:40 JI: I am an only child. 4:41 GS: Did your parents teach you Armenian or speak Armenian to you when you growing up? 4:45 JI: Yes, they did, from the time I was one or two years old they talked to me in Armenian until conversation wise throughout the years and I can speak Armenian conversation wise now fluently. 5:01 GS: Did you ever receive any formal training in Armenian? 5:05 JI: When you say formal training, um, language only whatever training I had was at the time when we were growing up at our local church at St. Gregory’s Armenian Church. We had Armenian classes that lasted, again it was once a week type of a training but at that time I knew conversation with Armenian, it was just a fact of me refining the words, the Armenian words, some of the ones that I did not understand outside, above and beyond the conversation. 5:37 GS: Okay, how fluent where your parents in English? 5:40 JI: They were fluent to the point where you could understand them. My father was, they were both fluent. Okay, as far as, they are fluent and there is enough to basically understand and conduct conversations as the years went on. They have got, they were fluent. 6:03 GS: Would you say that English or Armenian was the language most spoken in your household? 6:07 JI: I am going to say that it was believe it or not it was Armenian and only English when we were among our English friends, American friends. And also I did not understand it but they also spoke Turkish too. 6:25 GS: Okay, now let us talk a little bit about your childhood; when you were growing up, would you say that you had mostly an Armenian group of friends, mostly American group of friends or some combination of both? 6:38 JI: I had mostly when you consider it as basically it has to be American obviously. I went to school, made a lot of friends, neighborhood friends. I did have my Armenian friends and that was basically the focal point like I said before was at our St. Gregory’s Armenian Church. So, at the time to say they were good friends, they became good friends because at the age of five years old my parents ̶ I have sang in the choir with all my, all the adult members of the church. So I was pretty fortunate that my parents had taken me at an early age. And that was how I got to people my age basically became good friends, Armenian friends. But for the most part, I had more American friends obviously through the daily activities that I had. 7:31 GS: Would you say that your Armenian friends and your American friends tended to exist in separate spheres? 7:37 JI: No. I think that we as Armenians since we were at that time meeting and congregating once a month at least, that was the only time we had church. You know we were integrated into American community obviously. So, it was not just a cut and dry type thing. 7:54 GS: What was the Armenian community like when you were growing up? Was it large? Was it vibrant? Where did it tend to meet? Where did it congregate? 8:01 JI: For a small community when you say vibrant for a small community we were vibrant. I could remember the gatherings, again when you have community functions once a month especially church or otherwise if there was a special event that was happening I remember maybe sixty to seventy Armenians at the time dinners and functions, the church was always full for us. And When I say for our community, fifty to sixty to seventy with all their families growing up was a vibrant community for this area. 8:40 GS: You say you had meeting once a month, was that how frequently church met? 8:44 JI: That was how frequent for the most part, that was how frequently church met. In fact it met ̶ it was so vibrant in the sense that obviously it was vibrant enough that back in let’s see fifty. Fifty years ago, I do not know I would say forty five, some forty five years ago, up to that point when I was nineteen we had applied to get a full time Parish. We had a group of Armenian people along with the priest, a committee, a search committee comes to Binghamton and to see the viability of our church having a regular Armenian pastor and that was, as a result of that meeting, we had our first, one of our early full-time pastors. 9:37 GS: Okay, what were some other ways, other than speaking Armenian that your parents tried to maintain the sense of Armenian identity for you? 9:46 JI: Many ways. My mother was a seamstress but she was a great baker and a cook of Armenian delicacies, pastries. Everything she was perfectionist at what she did at an early age she learnt from her sister-in-law and also from her mother in Greece. She was a seamstress. She ̶ everything we revolved around the church. Twenty four/seven whenever we had a church ̶ that explains the vibrancy at that time with all the people and her group of friends she joined the women’s guild. She sang in the choir. She did anything that had to be done to basically move the community forward. As a result I got caught in that and like I said before I was ̶ I started singing in the choir at five years old age and throughout the years, I did ̶ they integrated me with that. Okay, and that to me probably the best thing for me to and as resulted in what I do today. 10:55 GS: What is that what you do today? 10:57 JI: Oh, I am a deacon now. I was ordained thirteen years ago. But I also was a sub-deacon for many years. So, I graduated from that. As people as the community became smaller throughout the years as I got older, I realized there is a need and responsibility for me to continue what my forefathers did. And I have been fortunate to actually after college I was involved to the point where obviously I was on Parish Council and I served as much as I could with annual events and to organize and help organize and work at them; picnics, functions, banquets, fundraisers. I was involved in the dance, anything to basically keep the Armenian spirit alive in this community. 11:47 GS: Okay, going a little back to your childhood you said the Armenian Church only met once a month but did you have like a Sunday school or a language school on top of the service? 11:56 JI: That once a month was a Sunday school and it was done with the general discussion that we had again. We did not have a priest at that time. We had a Sunday School Superintendent. The only time that once a month was replaced was when we had especial event where we had once a month when a priest came or a visiting pastor or when the bishop came and visited our community and then that would have been the only time basically we that would have been substituted for once a month. As we always growing up through the years. 12:30 GS: You said your mother was a pretty prominent baker as you were growing up. Would you say that most households would you know try and cook traditional Armenian food? Growing up was there some sense of like sharing of material sharing of food was there like one place ̶ 12:47 JI: Yes, I believe at that time when I was growing up there was. Because there were people that were older than her and she was very close to all the women in the church. I do not believe she had any enemies. She was well-liked and she was a type of person that basically did not want any accolades for what she did and I think that was what endeared her to the Armenian community. That is one thing I remember growing up. And that was the tone she set for me in terms of when I became older, when I set the tone in terms of how to basically live my life so to speak, in terms of respecting others and again we used to have discussions of this mind you in Armenian and being the only child I think she put positive pressure on me growing up and I think it is based on the fact that she wanted me to succeed. She worked very hard. My parents lived from week to week. She was the one actually that was the driving force of us surviving financially, being that she made her own clothes, altered clothes, baked, she scrimped and that was the reason why I think she instilled that in me at the time. 14:17 GS: Now, where did you attend college? 14:20 JI: I attended locally for two years, Broome, now it is SUNY Broome, but at that time it was called at that time it was Broome Community College. And at that time my aspirations were to be a mechanical engineer ever since I was a little boy and then at time for whatever reason I think there were a lot of unemployed engineers around back in the early seventies. I changed my major to pharmacy and thanks to some of the advice, my professors had given me and I was pretty, I did well at Chemistry. So I tried it. It was a little bit unearthing for me to all the years that trying to change a major I was not sure if this was going to work but then I transferred to Albany College of Pharmacy which is part of Union University and where I finished up my three years at the college. And as I look back now I have no regrets as far as ̶ 15:17 GS: Do you have any children on your own? 15:18 JI: No. 15:19 GS: Okay, what has it ̶ Can you discuss to me how the Armenian community has changed from the time when you grew up until up to the time now? 15:30 JI: I think we were closer then. I think times have changed in the sense ̶ we were closer, friendlier I think it was a friendly; it was I am not saying friendlier but it was a closer knit community. When you have a group of people working together as the community shrunk, as people got older, I mean the skills, obviously the skills set and everything, someone had to do the work. A lot of our young members of our community, I stay happened to stay in Binghamton. Other people have left. All my friends and all the other generations left for jobs obviously. At that time Binghamton was not really the place to be and even now I am not to a point they are trying to come back with this but the job market was tight. So all my friends moved away and they got good jobs wherever they went. I think it has ̶ a lot has to do with the shrinking of the community at that time. I think the community was closer. Now I think the mindset is as I go and see this what we worked for, young families now have a tendency to be tied up more on the weekends especially when events come they seem to be that the priority of the church, in other words, basically one of the tops of the list and that is the mindset now I believe, that is how I see it. 17:01 GS: So you think that the church has decreased in importance over time? 17:06 JI: It is decreased, in terms of importance, I would say that the church is the church. Everyone wants, you know everyone is still going to church but as far as doing all the extracurricular things, times have changed. Now the husband and the wife work. At that time do not forget the husband was working and the wife was the home-maker. Very seldom you find that now. I mean times have changed throughout the years. And I guess people have shied away from that. The other thing too I do not want to get into it as the Armenian doctrine I mean I grew up Armenian and speaking Armenian and now up to this point I could read Armenian now. You know now times have changed, kids ̶ to draw kids back to the church in this case or the Armenian youth ̶ Armenian is not ̶ they are doing more in English and you see a lot of the communities now are trying to bring kids back by knowing that they could understand what was going on. And English seems to be the more ̶ what we seem to be heading towards so to speak ̶ 18:16 GS: How do you feel about that trend? 18:19 JI: At this point I, for the young kids to come I agree with. For me it is either way. I mean I personally I am proud of what I have, my Armenian heritage in terms of speaking. Unfortunately in Binghamton I very seldom have a chance to do that anymore because there are not many people around anymore that will but I still welcome a good conversation in Armenian if I get the chance in my store if I see someone and they seem to be from Armenia or from the old country I will. I will talk with them. 18:55 GS: How do you identify yourself? 18:58 JI: I identify myself as from going back to childhood I identified myself as a person who is a proud Armenian from where I came from, from where my father’s come from and I am passionate about what he endured, I identify myself as a caring person and I identify myself as someone that basically ̶ 19:35 GS: Let us put it this way, would you say you are Armenian, Armenian-American, American-Armenian, American? I give you that, you have to choose one of those… 19:40 JI: I am an American-Armenian. 19:43 GS: American-Armenian? What would you say is the most important of your Armenian identity? 19:49 JI: My most important part of my Armenian identity is basically the church, going to church. That was where we started, that was where I started my ̶ it was not only just like going to church, it was not just the religious sanctuary for us, it was a gathering point of where we did things. We had events, we learnt, we had plays, we congregated and that was basically how I got to know everyone. I have served the community in several ways and that is how I identify myself is through the church. 20:28 GS: Do you think the church is a primarily social or religious institution in this community? 20:34 JI: At this point as time has gone on I am going to say basically, I am going to basically say it is kind of split down in the middle. I do not think it is totally I mean we do as much as we can only because we do not have church on a regular basis. 20:56 GS: Tell me about your path in becoming a sub-deacon and then a deacon and why you felt a responsibility to become deacon? 21:05 JI: It is just a passion, it is something that is come from my heart. It is something when you start at five years old to sing in the choir and then you know again through a tradition of people leaving, people passing away, I think it was like a torch being passed on and I felt the need it is just something from inside that I felt in need and of course the next step was sub-deacon and thanks to our priest at the time when I was nineteen years old, got us involved, He was a full-time priest and the it was only shortly that another priest ̶ The gauntlet was laid down when we, we have had four or five priests priest right now but it was only shortly after that the I was last thirteen years or twelve years since I would been a full deacon. This is the only thing that was holding me back was basically learning how to speak Armenian and I did that. 21:58 GS: When did you become sub-deacon? At what age? 22:01 JI: I am going to say basically I was serving on the altar but officially I think I was like eighteen or nineteen years old when the bishop came. 22:10 GS: And when did you become deacon? 22:12 JI: The deacon was in 2004. So about twelve years now. 22:16 GS: Can you tell me how and why that happened? 22:19 JI: It was thanks to of a visiting priest, kind of laid the gauntlet down and said if you want help this young priest of yours, you might wanna read an Armenian become a deacon to help him out even more and so it kind of laid a challenge for me and I said to myself you know as I was doing this I felt a need. It was all part of serving the community. It opened up some doors like I served the community more than I usually did in my capacities as sub-deacon. 22:48 GS: Okay, how has your own community changed since you have become deacon? 22:55 JI: I accepted, me ̶ shortly after I was I accepted, I performed events that I usually did not do as sub-deacon. Some I have been involved more in events where I could do more, participate more that includes going and ̶ you know again with the fact there was not a priest available at the time on a regular basis I can pick up the slack and do some of the things that priest do on a limited basis. And house visitation, prayers, grave blessings on Memorial Day. I took that upon myself that was my initial intention when I was thinking of this that you know how much more I can serve the community and this was an avenue for me to do that. I have done some, unfortunately I have done some funerals one for a I have helped one when there was an absence of the priest and I have done some funerals for close friends of mine where there was not a priest available. So you know I got to be more involved in that sense. 24:05 GS: Can you tell me about the establishment of the Armenian Genocide memorial by the Washington Street Bridge? 24:13 JI: The establishment at the time initially when we were first ̶ this was maybe several years ago, like I told you before we planted a tree. That was the initial recognition of our community toward the Armenians in the Genocide ̶ 24:31 GS: Who made this decision? 24:32 JI: The committee that was responsible for this and it was not church related was the one that made the decision to have a monument there. 24:42 GS: Who established this committee? 24:44 JI: Who established the committee? The committee was established by concerned citizens that were already involved in the events that they were organizing like I mentioned to you; the Kradjian family and a few others basically. They were passionate about this. And it turned out to be something that we needed. 25:10 GS: Where do you see the Armenian Binghamton Community going in the future and what are your thoughts on the Armenian diaspora in general going forward? 25:21 JI: Well, I feel it, as far as our community goes, the next twenty years I thought of that many years, I do not think there is going to be any Armenian language in the next twenty years that is why English has become a little more of a kind of ̶ the English language seems to be the one that is going to, you know continue to bring people to Church, there will still be a church whether it is an Armenian Church, although we say Armenian, I do not feel that at this point due the small size of the Parish and the fact that we do not have a regular shepherd to tend to the flock I feel it is going more towards English, more toward non-Armenian. There will still be a church that is how I envision it. This is the plight of the small communities basically. I feel it outside near metropolitan areas that case, the bigger towns, the bigger cities ̶ our communities here really and I am being kind will go toward that type of a direction so to speak English, English speaking. 26:38 GS: So do you think, introducing English into the church is a threat to Armenian, you know Armenian Communities’ identity? Maybe threat is a strong word but you think it risks it? 26:52 JI: It risks it, I think it does and I am thinking only if this community but there are a lot of small communities like this. I am talking about Syracuse and Rochester, Upstate New York communities, Niagara Falls, I mean I have had the pleasure of serving as deacon in the Syracuse community. I see the same type of a trend. Okay, I mean people, the have about the same amount of members but there is no succession, the plan of succession has to be there. And that is what I am worried about basically. 27:55 GS: Okay, all right, well Jack thank you very much for your time we really appreciate your help. 27:29 JI: Oh, sure. (End of Recording) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jack Injajigian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce55bb2f10fe4d560965ab53475e20f8.mp3 905f781bb5be6c175c188e47604ec9ff Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. 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Date of Interview 6 March 2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Karen Ajamian Smaldone Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 47:00 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Karen is a second generation American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She was born in the United States and currently resides with her husbands and three kids. She holds a masters degree and is a music adjuct professor. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14657,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"9":0,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Karen is a second generation Armenian-American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She currently resides with her husband and three kids in Manhasset and teaches at Queens College. <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Karen is a second generation American with grandparents that immigrated from eastern Turkey in 1920. She was born in the United States and currently resides with her husbands and three kids. She holds a masters degree and is a music adjuct professor. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14657,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"9":0,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Karen holds a Bachelor's degree in Music and an Master's degree in Special Education, both from Queens College, CUNY. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armenian; Eastern Turkey; New Jersey; second generation; Armenian Diaspora; Armenian culture; Armenian church; Armenian camp; Sunday School "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":14593,"3":{"1":0,"3":1},"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armenian; Eastern Turkey; New Jersey; second generation; Armenian Diaspora; Armenian culture; Armenian church; Armenian camp; Sunday School Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Karen Ajamian Smaldone Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 6 March 2016 Interview Settings: Manhasset, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:04 GS: My name is Gregory Smaldone. I am an interviewer at the University of Binghamton, history department, here to interview Karen Ajamian Smaldone for an Armenian Oral History Project. Can you please tell us your name and your basic biographical information for the record? 0:19 KS: I am Karen Ajamian Smaldone. I am fifty-nine years old. I was born to parents who were first generation American. They were from eastern Turkey. , I am sorry, their parents were from eastern Turkey and immigrated to the United States in the early (19)20s. My parents spoke fluent Armenian in their childhood homes. 0:51 GS: That is fine for now, we will get to those ̶ 0:53 KS: Okay. 0:53 GS: What was ̶ your parents were both ethnic Armenians? 0:58 KS: They were. 1:00 GS: Okay. What is your highest level of education, your occupation, your marital status ̶ children that you have, their genders? Tell us about your family, your life. 1:11 KS: I am married for thirty-seven years. I have three children; their ages are twenty-seven, twenty-four and twenty-one. 1:18 GS: Their genders? 1:20 KS: Twenty-seven is a female, twenty-four is a male, twenty-one is a female. My highest level of education is a Master’s degree. I am a retired public school music teacher and I am now an adjunct professor in music education department at Queens College CUNY University of New York. 1:39 GS: What is your spouse's ethnicity? 1:42 KS: My spouse is a third generation American. His ancestral background is Italian and Irish. 1:50 GS: What were your roles and responsibilities in your home and what were those of your spouse's? 1:58 KS: As a child? 1:59 GS: As an adult. 2:00 KS: As an adult ̶ My spouse and I had very equal roles. We both worked and contributed to the household income. We co-parented our children. I would say more or less maybe 75 percent – 60 percent me, and 40 percent him based on our schedules. My husband is a professor of Music so as such; his daily schedule could be modified. 2:36 GS: Okay, thank you. Tell us about your parents, their ̶ what were their occupations? 2:41 KS: So my mother, before she got married, was a secretary. Apparently she was a very above average student in high school, but was not given the opportunity to attend college. She was born in 1924. She was an executive secretary. Then was a homemaker for about five years and then went back to work were we lived in Union City, New Jersey, and she worked in the mayor's office as an executive secretary. 3:27 GS: What was your parents or your father's occupation? 3:30 KS: My father was about twelve to fifteen years older than my mother. He was a lawyer. He was a councilman in New Jersey and was on the New Jersey state senate. 3:46 GS: Okay. What were your parent's role in the house? 3:53 KS: My father died when I was three and a half but prior to that the roles in the home were, from what I understand, very traditional with my mother being home full time and my father working. Once my father passed away my mother took small part-time jobs such as typing labels, she would bring labels into the home, type up the address labels and then deliver them back to the company. Once I was in fourth grade and my twin sister and brother were in first grade, that was when she went back to work full time in the mayor's office in city hall and they afforded her school hours so basically nine to four so she could be home at night for her children. 4:47 GS: What were the circumstances that prompted your ancestors leaving their homeland to come to America? 4:55 KS: My mother's mother was a victim of the Armenian genocide and her father, my great grandfather had some political connections and was able to allow my grandmother to be taken out of eastern Turkey out of harm's way and into an orphanage. Maybe at the age of eight, and she was brought to America by other family members in the early (19)20s to what has never been said but in my opinion was an arranged marriage. She married my grandfather and they had four girls together. My grandfather was about twelve years older than her. His family came to America with him; he was born in eastern Turkey the very late 1800s. We actually have the ship manifest. Although it has never been said, my cousins and I, our generation, suspect that my grandfather most likely had a wife and possibly children in Turkey that he either left, or lost; we are really not sure, and then came to America and established a new life and then married my grandmother. 6:39 GS: Okay. What are your childhood memories such as your kinship group, and what your goals and aspirations were? 6:51 KS: So the childhood, the absence of the father in the home, made us unique in the early (19)60s. My father died in 1960. But we ̶ there was a very strong sense of a family in both local community and the Armenian community. Church and religion was a very important part of my mother's upbringing and when we were young, say, under the age of five, my mother took my sister, brother and I, to a local reform church, so some sort of Protestant of non-denominational type of thing, which was literally less than a block from our house and we attended Sunday school there, nursery Sunday school and services because the Armenian Church was about, I would say, about eight miles away and my mother did not drive. Now that Armenian Church, her father, my grandfather, was a founding member in the (19)40s. So it is a very important church to her. When I was in early elementary school, the priest from that church was ̶ took notice, and wanted to rectify the situation that my mother, the daughter of a founding father of the church, was not able to attend services because she did not drive and she had three young children. So the priest arranged to have a family who lived near us to pick us up every Sunday and take us to church and to Sunday school, bring us home. There was also on Saturday an Armenian language day school that the church ran and they actually ran a school bus for that so my sister and brother and I, very reluctantly and not happily, went off to Armenian language school. 9:13 GS: How long did you attend? 9:15 KS: I would say about four or five years. 9:16 GS: And it was you and your siblings? Was there anyone else that you knew, that you attended with? 09:22 KS: A lot of the people from Sunday school, a lot of the other children from Sunday school were there but ̶ 09:26 GS: How important was it within your community to attend an Armenian language school? 9:33 KS: At that time it was very important. So there were a lot of, American children, American born children, like myself, second generation Americans, when we got to Sunday school, what we were finding is that there were a lot of first-generation children who were fluent because Armenian was the only language that was spoken at home, and there was always this divide that, you know, why are these kids in language school when they're fluent and again you are talking about the 1960s, there was no real educational strategies being employed. So it was the kids who could speak and the kids who could not speak and honestly, you know, other than a few vocabulary words, I never learned to speak. Today, fifty years later, in the Armenian community that I live in, Nassau county, Long Island, there is an Armenian day school still on Saturdays and I would have to say that 95 percent of those children again are fluent and the possibly really not assimilating into American society. Most, for my own children for instance, we did not subject them to Saturday language school because they are completely immersed in the American way of life, with, you know, Saturday sports, CYO, piano lessons, etc. 11:18 GS: Alright, we will come back to this. When you were a child, how important was it within your family that you attended Armenian language school and learn the Armenian language? 11:27 KS: It was important but there are eleven first cousins on my mother's side of the family and I am amongst the four youngest. So my older cousins who are seven, six, five, four, three years older than me, most of them lived with either our grandmother or a grandparent from their father's side of the family and those children, because grandparents were in the home, primarily speaking Armenian. My older cousins were fluent. In fact my older cousins, who are now sixty-seven and sixty-six, went to kindergarten not speaking any English. 12:19 GS: How would you describe the Armenian community in general growing up, where were the social spaces? How important was the home? How important was the church? 12:32 KS: So all those things were one and the same; the church, the home, the social spaces. If we were going to an Armenian teenage dance, the Armenian equivalent of the catholic CYO, ACYOA: the Armenian Christian Youth organization. If we were going to an Armenian dance no questions were ever asked. If I was going to a high school dance, that was a different story. All of my Armenian peers, we went to language school, we went to the youth group ACYOA, we went to Sunday school, and we went to Armenian camp. Camp Nubar was established in 1963, and it was established by the Armenian General Benevolent Union, AGBU. And immediately it became an extremely popular camp and the camp was immersed with, you know, Armenian language, Armenian dancing, Armenian cooking, but the Armenians are big assimilators and therefore there were horseback riding, canoeing, swimming, camp craft. Again, I attended Armenian camp for two weeks when I was 8 years old, sleep away camp which was unheard of but it was "okay" because it was Armenian camp and my cousins were there and my mother new the director and everybody knew everybody. 14:24 GS: What was the nature of your associations with non-Armenians as a child? 14:30 KS: My neighborhood kids, neighborhood friends were not Armenian, almost all of them were Catholic and definitely the question was always, you know, what are you ̶ I am Armenian, what is Armenian ̶ and my answer would be: Oh it is almost like Greek. The neighborhood was very catholic. All my friends went to confession on Saturdays. They went to mass on Sundays, you know, first communions, confirmations, catholic holidays, celebrated in school, and nobody ever knew what Armenians were ̶ I forgot the question. 15:18 GS: We were just talking about your relationship with non-Armenians as a child. 15:23 KS: So yeah, so I had neighborhood friends and to this day I talk about my childhood girlfriends, my high school girlfriends, my Armenian friends, my Armenian friends from camp my Armenian friends from church so ̶ 15:41 GS: So they were kind of ̶ they were worlds apart, you had your Armenian friends and you had your non-Armenian friends? 15:46 KS: They were definitely worlds apart, and, you know, fast forward to this point in time, my "childhood friends" know of my Armenian friends from childhood and vice versa but they still do not interact. Where this becomes ̶ where the story changes a little bit, I live in Manhasset, which has a very large Armenian population. There are many people my age and we raised our children going to Sunday school in the Armenian church, now our children are young adults, and living in Manhasset so now these "Armenian friends" are also friends with my neighbors and other community members so there’s kind of blending but we are still kind of known as ̶ oh, you know ̶ Alexis from church, you know, Lorry from church, she is my Armenian friend, do you know so and so, she is Armenian. 16:51 GS: Would you say ̶ your experience growing up, where you had a separation between your Armenian and your non Armenian friends? Do you think that was typical of the Armenian people you grew up with or was this more something personal for you? 17:05 KS: No ̶ if there were families where the children where first generation, again I am second generation, they were very separated from the daily life in Union City. So, here is a silly story, but it is something that resonates with me. People of the Middle East are very fond of yoghurt. So now were talking 1965, 1966, the yoghurt craze that America's experiencing now did not exist. If you needed yoghurt, you got a small four or six ounce container in the supermarket and you made your own yoghurt at home not in the salt in yoghurt maker, but over the stove, with milk and the yoghurt that you bought in the store is the starter, it is the mother. And my mother, every single week, we had a mayonnaise jar, empty mayonnaise jar, wrapped in a bath towel, sitting over the pilot on the stove to keep the ̶ I do not know what the word is called ̶ to cure the yoghurt okay, and that was how we had yoghurt, and my friends just could not like the yoghurt ̶ what the hell ̶ they just could not understand it ̶ 18:32 GS: Your non-Armenian friends? 18:33 KS: My non-Armenian friends. 18:34 GS: Your Armenian friends, did they have similar experiences with yoghurt? 18:38 KS: Worse. my Armenian friends who was first generation American, yeah, first generation, maybe she was even an immigrant, I do not even know, when she heard that my mother was going to the store to buy the starter yoghurt, she said ̶ oh no, no, no, no ̶ We only get ̶ if we do not have starter yoghurt in our own home, we only go to somebody else’s home and borrow their starter.[laughs] I am like you cannot make this stuff up.[laughter] And then I felt like a lesser Armenian because my mother used ̶ you know. 19:12 GS: Store bought yoghurt. What traditions and customs from your parents' home are most important for you to maintain and why, and if there are any, what are the challenges involved in this? 19:28 KS: So the cooking, obviously with any ethnic group, is very significant, there were, you know, specialty recipes that were associated with certain holidays 19:40 GS: Could you name a few? 19:41 KS: Sure. There is a çörek, which is a yeast bread, egg bread, almost like a challah and that is like the Greeks that is affiliated with Easter. It is a tedious, day long process where you are making the dough, proofing it, letting it rise, punch it down, let it rise again, form it into loaves, let the loaves rise and then bake it. It is delicious, um big big, big process. There is myriad recipes made with filo dough which has to be number four filo dough and you have to buy it fresh from a Mid-Eastern or Armenian or God Forbid Turkish grocery store. You do not want to get your filo dough frozen from the local supermarket. That is a big no-no, um filo dough is turned into myriad desserts that is kind of becoming international now such as baklava or burma which is just crushed walnuts and some spices, sugar and water, honey and water. Filo dough is also turned into cheese börek which is kind of typical of a Greek spanakopita, filled with a variety of cheeses, this has become an Americanized recipe because my mother and her generation used cream cheese and Muenster cheese which obviously was not available in Eastern Turkey. It has been told that they use pot cheese, some sort of cottage cheese type of mix, but Armenian-Americans are big with the cream cheese and Muenster cheese. 21:57 GS: What are the challenges involved in maintaining these traditions? 22:02 KS: Well, they are very time consuming, but I do not think it is unique to the Armenian people, you look at the Italians who celebrate the seven fishes on Christmas eve, and that’s an extremely time intensive task. But yeah, they are time consuming, and sometimes the ingredients are not readily available. I think there is more acceptance and more interest in other cultures now so if you have American guests in your home, they are interested in dishes from your ethnic heritage as opposed to when I was a child in the (19)60s where you went, um you know, if I had an American friend come to my house and there was an Armenian dinner on the table, those foods would be very foreign to those children. So that kind, you know, with our worldwide assimilation of food all over the place, it has become a lot easier, it is not even a challenge it has become easier to share the foods. The other traditions um, our Christmas is January 6th, it is not December 25th. Did I ever take a day off from work to go to church on "Armenian Christmas"? No. Many people do. Christmas, December 25th, the Armenians refer to as American Christmas, but there is not one Armenian that I know that does not celebrate December 25th. 23:57 GS: Was this true growing up? 24:00 KS: It was also true growing up, again big assimilators, but you know. 24:05 GS: Was January 6th heavily celebrated within your community? 24:09 KS: It was celebrated in church. 24:11 GS: Church, but it was not. 24:12 KS: I did not get extra presents or anything like that. 24:15 GS: But like you said before there is very little difference between the home, the church and the social space. 24:18 KS: That’s right. 24:19 GS: Would you say this kind of holds for January 6th? Would you say that people in the community saw the January 6th church services as just the church keeping a church holiday alive or did they see it as the community's time to celebrate their Christmas? 24:38 KS: It is a religious holiday. It is a day of religious obligations they take it very seriously. 24:43 GS: So it was a church holiday but church holidays are taken seriously? 24:48 KS: Yes 24:48 GS: Okay, Thank you. Um, how were your parents cared for as they aged? 24:54 KS: My father died suddenly when I was young, so that ended that. My mother remarried. My stepfather died at the age seventy-nine. He did not require um, well, he was seventy-nine, my mother was seventy-five so he did not really, yeah it was not difficult to take care of him and also he died rather quickly. My mother on the other hand, lived to the age of eighty-eight and the last three years of her life were extremely challenging. The last eleven months of her life, as she had fallen, broken her hip, lost oxygen in the hospital, never really recovered. So she was taken care of by twenty-four hour day care which was extremely expensive but ̶ 25:51 GS: Where was this care? 25:52 KS: The care was primarily, the first four months was in my home, in my living room. We moved everything out, we put a hospital bed in, all of my children participated. I had neighbors that came and checked in on her and my mother had moved after my stepfather died. She sold the house and moved to ̶ she rented a house about a block and a half away from me. And we moved her back there with her twenty-four hour care with the intent of refinishing our first floor den so she can come back here, but then when she went back to her apartment her condition worsened. It became very clear that she was not going to live much longer and we did not disrupt her again so she was in her apartment and my children and my husband and myself and my neighbors you know, who would, because I worked, some of my neighbors would stop in ̶ 27:10 GS: Was it only your Armenian neighbors who stopped in? 27:13 KS: Nope, not only Armenian neighbors. Everyone stopped in. And this went on for about eight months before she passed away. 27:26 GS: What levels of education have your children achieved and what are their occupations and where do they live? 27:37 KS: My oldest daughter, Loris, twenty-seven years old. She has a Master’s degree and she is a teacher in New York City and she lives in New Nork city in a rented apartment and she completely supports herself. We do not support her. My son is about to receive his Master’s degree in History and he has been, I would say, 90 percent financially self-sufficient for the last two years. My youngest daughter Julia is twenty-one. She is graduating from college this May. And has very strong desire to become fully employed and save some money and move out in eighteen months. 28:28 GS: Was it important to you, and is it still important to you now that your children marry Armenians? 28:36 KS: No. because I did not marry an Armenian and my mother did not have a hard time with that. Some of my friends, second generation Americans, actually married immigrants which we lovingly call OTB's, off the boaters and their lives ̶ one, two- I could think of three girlfriends who married men from "the other side" and the other side now could be, you know, Armenians living in Diaspora and Egypt, Israel, variety of places, and those girlfriends, their homes, became Armenian to the second power. Okay, so it was kind of reinforced by marrying somebody from the other side and again the language is heavier use the Armenian language in their homes, and the cultures and the food and what have you. But my mother never put any pressure on me to marry an Armenian. I got married very young, I exposed my children to the Armenian communities. My older daughter actually was probably the most socially involved, through her friends, through both Sunday school and Camp Nubar which still going strong. She did have an Armenian boyfriend for a while, and after they broke up, it is almost like he got the Armenians in the divorce and she kind of pulled away from that group and is now dating somebody who is not Armenian. So, you know, it would be great but ̶ 30:39 GS: So you say it is something you actively want but it is not something you would ever put pressure on. 30:43 KS: Never. 30:43 GS: Okay. What would you identify as your homeland? 30:49 KS: New Jersey. That is where I grew up. 30:54 GS: What are your thoughts about gender roles in society today? 31:02 KS: So, obviously in, you know, lily white two-parent homes, America in 1960, that was a model that my family did not fit. It was very important for my mother. You know. I am a musician but I remember her saying that she wanted me to know how to play the piano so that someday if I needed to work to support myself or my children, I would have a skill that I could do in my home like teaching piano lessons as opposed to her who had to bring labels in to type. Raising my children in an affluent suburban neighborhood, my neighbors are either comprised of stay-at-home mothers with husbands that work or high powered women with big jobs in the city, lawyers, some doctors, bankers which brings lots of money into the house and lots of help, full-time help, live-in nannies. So with me being a school teacher and working outside the home, I really did not really fit the mold where I live. Again what was the question? What are my views? and now it is changing, its changing, the society is changing, everybody is changing not so much in Manhasset, I do not know where the economic bubble was, did not seem to hit here so I see much younger, you know, whole new generation of very young women who do not work and their husbands do the wall street run but I know that when I taught in the public schools they worked. Within my thirty-four years as I started teaching in 1978 there were many women who had children and never came back to work. And I would say in the last ten to twelve years that model really changed. These young women, I call them the young girls at work, having their babies, they are back in, like, eight weeks, babies are in day care so the world really is changing you know. The two parent income model seems to be more of a necessity than it ever was before. 33:46 GS: Do you think it is important for women to stay home with their children after they were born? 33:57 KS: I think it is important. I think people have a strong desire to do whatever it is that is necessary. I had the support of my mother and my stepfather when my children were little. They shared in the daytime care giving. I also was fortunate enough to have a woman, an Armenian, from our church, who was a daytime care giver for the kids. You know, kids do not raise themselves, so, I do not think I could have followed the model of a banker mother who, you know, travelled three days out of the week and left the child home with a sleeping ,live-in nanny. 34:54 GS: What is it about yourself that you might say makes you most Armenian? 35:05 KS: I think it is just, you know, it is just who I am, it is just it is ingrained, it is my church, it is my religion, it is the friends, the people. 35:18 GS: Do you attend church regularly? 35:20 KS: I do not. I play the organ at my church from time to time. Now that I am semi-retired, I do more volunteering at the church and you know, going there and working at the picnic or working at the food fair where women my age, you know, I grew up with and our moms knew one another most of our moms are not with us anymore and there’s just that kind of community and that thread and when I am at church and doing things for the church, I really feel my mother. You know, I am walking her walk, I am doing exactly what she did. 36:14 GS: Have you ever travelled to Armenia or Turkey? 36:18 KS: No. And there is a huge um, since Armenia itself has been liberated from former Soviet Union, there has been a huge travel and tourist industry that has come up in that area most of it in the capital city of Yerevan. There is extreme poverty in Armenia and my Armenian-American friends who have gone say it is nothing like what we think of as Armenian. It is the language, the dialect is different than the Armenian that is spoken in the United States, the foods are a little bit different, the Armenians in Armenia are not very religious or not practicing religious, so what has happened here in America in the one hundred years since the genocide began, I think people who came here from Eastern Turkey, again, religious freedom, was a big thing, and they came here and they established churches, and as a result, community sprung up around those churches. That does not seem to be the case in the land of Armenia and, you know, its everyone’s dirty secret that I am Turkish of Armenian descent, but that is what we were. 37:56 GS: What do you mean by "everyone’s dirty little secret"? 37:58 KS: Well because we would you know the Armenians do not want to associate themselves with the Turkish but our, my grandmother was born in Turkey. My grandfather was born in Turkey. 38:08 GS: Dirty little secret among the Armenian community growing up. 38:11 KS: Yes. 38:12 GS: And this was as distinguished from the rest of the community who saw itself as Armenia? 38:17 KS: We just you know, we are Armenian, that was it, but it was not until like maybe ten or fifteen years ago that we started saying well our ancestors were from Eastern Turkey but again the borders, you know, those borders were changing all the time. 38:36 GS: So it was not as if it was a secret, gossip among the community. 38:42 KS: no, no, no, no, no, no. 38:43 GS: it was within your own family? 38:45 KS: Yeah within the family. 38:46 GS: how important is the preservation of your family's stories, the memories, and their thoughts? 38:51 KS: Well I think the preservation of anybody’s history is very important, and people with ancestory.com and what have you their flocking all over the place now to secure this history and figure out where their ancestors come from. One of the things that has come up in the Armenian community is, it is very hard for first and second generation American-Armenians to trace their roots because there are no records. So it is not like you are going to England and doing historical, ancestral research. My husband's family, the Italian side, he has a cousin who is gone to southern Italy and looked through the baptism records of the church and has traced their family back to the mid-19th century but apparently these Turkey is not so one. It is not so user-friendly, two. These records do not exist, everything was destroyed. 40:10 GS: How do you view a Diaspora? Was it an accident of history or an evil or a good? 40:19 KS: Well, I think the world today is one big diaspora, everyone is everywhere and these borders are really blending when you look at the area of Flushing Queens, New York, where the Mets play and it has been designated the new China town, there are more Chinese and Koreans living in this area than there are in the formerly known China Town in Manhattan, and this area of Flushing was populated by the Dutch in the 1800 and early 1900s and then there was a huge Jewish influx in around world war II, and it remained like that until the (19)80s and those Jewish people kind of aged out and left and the Asians came in and you go down to Flushing there is no English being spoken. So the diaspora it is happening where I grew up in Union City New Jersey, huge influx of Cubans during my childhood, (19)60s, (19)70s and now it is, I do not know the exact number but it is a very, very large percentage. 42:06 GS: Do you think that the Diaspora has its own identity and do you think that the diaspora is a temporary thing, you know, seeking to go back to the homeland or do you think it’s its own entity in and of itself? 42:18 KS: No, I think it is become its own entity in and of itself and you know Armenians are their own worst enemy because I heard in my interview talking about the American-Armenians and the off-the -boaters, and even they do not seem to blend. 42:35 GS: So there is not a single diaspora identity, there are multiple identities within the diaspora? 42:40 KS: Yes. 42:41 GS: Do you think that even despite this separation of identities there is a unity within the diaspora? 42:53 KS: Again we are getting back to the church and the culture and language, so yeah, that unity does exist, and I think because it is a small population, we are nothing next to the Jewish immigrants, we are nothing obviously next to the Asian immigrants, so my husband always said there is an Armenian hiding under every rock. It is not unusual to, so and so went to college in California and her roommate's Armenian. Do you know her? Well, you know it is like literally one to two degrees of separation. You can always draw a straight line between two Armenians, but again I think that is because the community, not the community, the actual numbers are small so. 43:49 GS: Do you think that Armenian organizations within America are attracting the American-born? 44:01 KS: Armenian organizations yeah, I mean, there are so a big movement now is to kind of a habitat for humanity for Armenians, building homes, building schools in Armenia. This building is spearheaded by American groups. It is very popular for families, Armenian-American families to go for instance, like my husband and I would go and bring our three children and we would go for a month and build houses and then do some touring and then come home and do a fundraiser event. That is happening, are people coming here? Are we trying to bring people here? I cannot really answer that, I know for a while it was fairly simple to adopt a child from an Armenian orphanage but it is getting harder politically, I do not really know why, it is not as easy to do that anymore. 45:16 GS: Okay. Would you define yourself as an American, Armenian, American-Armenian, Armenian-American or some other moniker? What do you tell people when they ask you? 45:34 KS: Well, who is asking? 45:36 GS: It depends who asks. 45:37 KS: Right. I mean, if I am in Italy on vacation, somebody says "where are you from?" I am going to say "America". 45:44 GS: So when you are abroad you are an American, but when you are in America what are you? 45:48 KS: But also in Italy which I have been to many, many times, because my husband actually worked there, when the conversation went a little bit beyond into "are you American?" often the Italians would comment on my appearance, you know, dark hair, dark eyes, and I would say I am Armenian amen, amen, amen so they knew, so that, you know. Second question then I would say I am Armenian. Armenians are viewed very favorably all over the world except for ̶ 46:23 GS: How do you define yourself here? 46:26 KS: You know I even tell my students, my college students last year ̶ the Armenian genocide was celebrating, celebrating? Commemorating it is one hundredth year anniversary. There was big to do stand in Washington DC, I took two days off from work to go. And I said to my college students you know going to this thing. I was born in America, but I am Armenian. What is an Armenian? And there it goes. 46:51 GS: So what do you identify as? 46:53 KS: American-Armenian. Answer the question, [laughs] (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Karen Ajamian Smaldone https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/500e3562f9c72c9a42f217680a0b000a.mp3 a6893474eec7eafb0d832a5cd32c2531 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:26:41 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Adrian Kachadourian Date of Interview 2/27/2017; 3/30/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Adrian was born in Watertown, Massachusetts to Armenian parents. She attended Boston University and earned a degree in Psychology. While in college, she lived with an Armenian woman who taught her the language in exchange for English lessons. At university, she became more involved in Armenian traditions, attending dances and other cultural events. After graduation, she got married and moved around a bit before settling in Binghamton. Currently, she has five children and plays the organ in a local Armenian church. "}">Adrian was born in Watertown, Massachusetts to Armenian parents. She attended Boston University and earned a degree in Psychology. While in college, she lived with an Armenian woman who taught her the language in exchange for English lessons. At university, she became more involved in Armenian traditions, attending dances and other cultural events. After graduation, she got married and moved around a bit before settling in Binghamton. Currently, she has five children and plays the organ in a local Armenian church. Keywords <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"massacre; church; Turkey; culture; Americanized; Massachusetts; Sunday School; Bulgaria; "}">Massacre; church; Turkey; culture; Americanized; Massachusetts; Sunday School; Bulgaria; traditions; language Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Adrian Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 2 February 2017; 3 March 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:11 JK: Okay, so good morning–good afternoon. My name is Jackie Kachadourian and today is February 27, 2017. I am here with the Armenian Oral History Project being conducted at Binghamton University Library and I am here with Adrian Kachadourian and could you please state your full name and when you were born? 0:32 AK: Adrian Millicent Kachadourian, born November 20, 1936. 0:40 JK: And what were your parents’ occupations growing up? 0:45 AK: Growing up, my father– my– me growing up? 0:49 JK: Yeah. 0:49 AK: Okay, my father was a farmer who had, um, greenhouse and grew hothouse tomatoes and my mother was a homemaker. 0:59 JK: Okay. And were your parents immigrants to this county of America? 1:04 AK: Yes, uh, not to this county– My father came to this country when he was about three years old but my mother came to this country only after she met my father and married him. 1:18 JK: Okay, and, um, were they– where were they– where did they come from? 1:23 AK: My mother came from İzmir and my father came from Harput. 1:28 JK: Okay, and, um, what caused them to leave their–? 1:32 AK: In relation to my father, there was a warning that–about the massacres before 1915. The late 1800 so they came to America but my father was only three-years-old then. My mother was vacationing and they got the word that there was going to be a gen– A massacre so she did not even go home, she left for Bulgaria and her mother followed her there. 2:10 JK: So, she could not take any of her things she did not bring? 2:13 AK: No, no she had to leave everything because she was on vacation and her mother said you know leave there et cetera. 2:21 JK: So, she came– went to Bulgaria, or she was in Bulgaria? 2:25 AK: She was in Bulg– no she was vacationing and, I guess, Izmir, you know somewhere along the Bosporus but I am not sure that the particulars and so she was visiting her aunt so, uh, so then she went to Bulgaria and her mother met her there. Her father had died of natural causes and her brother had died of in an accident. 2:56 JK: Okay and this was before, right before the genocide happened? 3:00 AK: Right. There was word going around and one of the relatives said, “Does not look good we should get out.” 3:07 JK: Wow! That is crazy. And, um, growing– where– when they, where they were growing was there a lot of Armenians in the area? 3:16 AK: Uh, I would gue– I, I guess so although I do not really know that much about– 3:24 JK: –The demographics. 3:25 AK: About any of that, no. I know that my mother was going to I think what they called it was an American college and but she had–she did not finish because of this she had to flee. 3:39 JK: Yeah. And are both of your parents Armenian, or no? 3:43 AK: Yes. 3:44 JK: Yes? Okay. So that makes you 100 percent Armenian, yeah? 3:47 AK: Yes. [laughs] 3:48 JK: Um, so growing up you had a lot, lot of Armenian, uh, ethic, ethnic, like, cultural things such as, like, food and, like, going to church and things like that, right? 4:03 AK: Well not where my father lived because he lived in a rural town and in those days the nearest Armenian Church was a good an hour to hour and a half away which was Watertown, Massachusetts. That is where I was born and, um. So, whatever culture was taught us was through my mother and my father they spoke Armenian and we understood what they said. They also spoke in Turkish too, but my mother was did all of the ethnic cooking and all of that and, um, but, my father, on my father’s side even though he was one hundred percent Armenian, his family were protestants so I grew up going to the Baptist church even. Because for whatever reason, I do not know why they, they were all I guess born in this country and, um, even though they were Armenian, they spoke Armenian, they somehow rather tied themselves to the protestant church so I grew up in the Baptist church and really did not know that much about the service. Now my mother, was Orthodox Armenian she could read, she could write, she knew the service but when she came to– when she came– when she married my father, um, she was living in the house with many in-laws and so she felt that she could not, you know, present her background and culture because they were so– they just– she just thought that, you know, with all of these in-laws she did not want to make any trouble. 5:52 JK: Yeah, she wants to– 5:54 AK: But she knew, she knew all the songs, the Armenian songs and she sang and she wrote and read and that is as far as we went. And as I said, they spoke Armenian, and we understood but we did not– we did not have to speak back to them in Armenian in order to learn they, they, they– my mother was very cosmopolitan and my father, again, coming to this country was very Americanized. 6:28 JK: Mhm. Yeah, so, um, did bother of your parents– now your mom did speak and write Armenian as you said but did your father write Armenian too or no? 6:38 AK: Um, I am, I am not. I do not think so. He just spoke Armenian. 6:43 JK: And now, how did they learn Turkish? Is it because they are from– 6:47 AK: From– yes. When they were in Turkey, living in Turkey. 6:51 JK: So, what, when in the community? I do not know if they told you this or not but they– did they have to learn Turkey as well as Armenian? Like what was– do you remember– 7:01 AK: No, I do not know. No, that I do not know I think they just picked it up and from what I understand, that they might have purposely spoke Turkish so that–to disguise themselves from, from being Armenian. But most, most Armenians at that time did, did speak, um, Turkish. 7:25 JK: Oh, okay. Very cool. Do– when you were living– growing up in the household did, uh, did your parents speak Turkish so sometimes you could not understand what they were saying? 7:34 AK: I did not understand. So, if they did not want me to know what they were saying, they would speak in, in Turkish. 7:41 JK: Yeah? And growing up did you have any siblings? Um– 7:45 AK: Yes, I have two sisters and a brother. 7:48 JK: Can you, uh, name them and put their relation as to you within age. So like, who’s older and– 7:55 AK: Oh all right, then I’ll start with the oldest. My sister, Phyllis, then my second sister, Beverley, then me, Adrian, and then my brother, Clive. 8:06 JK: And so, all of you guys learned Armenian growing up as a small child? 8:11 AK: Learning only– just to understand just to understand Armenian. Um, we never spoke it even though they did, they spoke amongst themselves and or with family member that may or visitors that were Armenian that would come to the house and they would speak. But we do not– we picked it up. I think that I spoke more because when I was going to college, I, uh, instead of living in school, I lived in with an Armenian woman and she did not know very much English but she knew Armenian so that was I said to her I said “I will teach you English and you will teach me Armenian” and that is about– 8:59 JK: Wow that must have been nice. 9:01 AK: It was, it was nice. 9:03 JK: Um, so do you– when you were younger did you attend Armenian language school or bible school? 9:07 AK: No, no language school at all. 9:10 JK: Growing up in your area as a child, I know you said you went to protestant church– Baptist church. Was there an Armenian Church near your area? 9:19 AK: No, the nearest one, as I said, was in Watertown, Massachusetts which was probably at that time maybe, uh, two hours to get there, you know because, of the, the highway and was not built then– 9:33 JK: Yeah, um, did– was there any people in your community that were Armenian as well or was it just you that was– 9:40 AK: No, it was mostly, it was mostly my father’s relatives, uh, his brothers and sisters and or there were friends in the next town over and they, they used to talk Armenian with them and play backgammon and, and that is how I learned the numbers because they would say the numbers in Turkish, so that is how– that is my only knowledge of, um, the numbers in Turkish. 10:14 JK: Wow! That is crazy. Um, so, in the household when you–when your parents were talking to you, they spoke Armenian, and you just? 10:21 AK: Not all the time. It was English, it was primarily English and, um, yeah. 10:28 JK: So, um, when you were growing up, there was not a lot of Armenian community around you except with your family, and so how did you keep the Armenian culture in your life strong? [phone rings] 10:43 JK: We can stop. [pause in audio] 10:45 JK: Okay so, um, so how did you keep the Armenian, uh, Armenian culture in your life strong like with the food and, um, because I know you go to church regularly and still have that Armenian culture in your life. 11:06 AK: Well once in a while, my mother would take, take me, I do not know about my sisters, but my mother would take me once in a while I remember we used to– we would go to the service but it was so strange to me because I did not understand anything and, um, and so as far as the culture, all I knew growing up was that my mother and father– if there were Armenian friends they entertained a great deal and it would be there were distance cousins from Providence, Rhode Island, but they were all very, very Americanized. That is the only thing I can say so it was not like oh we must speak Armenian and we must, you know, um, learn to speak Armenian and this and that and it was– I just did not think very much about the Armenian culture, only the food and my mother and father entertained and I would listen to them speak, you know, Armenian to them to the friends and that was that was about it. 12:20 JK: So, growing up, did you think that you because more Americanized because of your father, he lived here longer and– 12:26 AK: Oh, I definitely felt, you know, Americanized and, you know, at one time at some– one point if, um, my father’s family if they spoke Armenian in public they were embarrassed. So, um, and I really did not, you know, I, I did not learn to speak so I just did not– I just thought nothing of it because I had a wonderful childhood and I loved being on the farm and you know being Armenian was, was and I did not have to marry an Armenian, you know, like there are some families that feel that, you know, have to marry an Armenian. My father was not like that and he said he just wanted me to marry someone who was not lazy and, and that was about it so it– that was not– it was in the background, if you will, as far as growing up. 13:26 JK: So, um, going back to marrying an Armenian, so, you did not feel pressurized to marry someone who was Armenian? 13:33 AK: No. 13:34 JK: Okay. 13:35 AK: Although, um, when I was in college, I met, I met two girlfriends that were Armenian and that is when we started to go to the Armenian dances and we would go everywhere together and that is and then that is how I learned the, the steps because there was a group of us, boys and girls, and so it was really very nice because when I went to when I went to college, Boston University, I lived with a woman. This was while I was in college. I lived with this other woman when I was working, um, and I and I lived right in Watertown so– which is the heart of Armenians, and I– it is like little Armenian and so that is when I met people my age and that is what started me in going to the dances and I enjoyed going to the dances and it was my only way of meeting anyone because to meet a non-Armenian, you would have to go be the introduced to someone or go to a bar or pickup type thing. But at least that is one thing I, I was thankful for that with the Armenian, they had dances and, of course, thanksgiving we would go right into Boston to the big dances and, and, um, Christmas eve or New Years’ eve that is when they would have them it was wonderful. 15:06 JK: Yeah, so, um, going back to when you were in like growing up with your like family, did you guys ever have any picnics that you would attend, or like Armenian Christmas? 15:19 AK: Uh, no. 15:19 JK: No? Because I know– 15:20 AK: No, only, only when I was beginning to get in the social when I was socializing with Armenians and I had girlfriends that is when– if we, you know, heard there was going to be an Armenian picnic we would go. But my parents did not go, no. 15:36 JK: So, when you got into college, it was kind of like a rekindle of the culture– 15:42 AK: Yes. 15:42 JK: –So that is nice. Um, did you enjoy, like, meeting new Armenians or Armenian people that you have not really met when you were growing up, like, being introduced to the culture that you have not really like– 15:55 AK: Well it was not. You mean to all̶ being introduced to older Armenians? 15:59 JK: Or like other Armenians because you were saying growing up, you did not really have that much connection– 16:03 AK: No, all I had– wait, [indistinct] you know all I had was, uh, my girlfriends from my public schooling in, in the town that I, that I went to. I mean it was such a small rural town and, um, but in relation to when started to go to college and then started to meet Armenian boys and girls my age, you know, we, we went everywhere and then, of course, my sister also came with me, my little sister, she would come with me because my oldest sister was away, uh, going to music school and–and becoming a musician. So it was my middle sister and I who really, um, went to Armenian functions and I would say that she, um, also tried to meet, you know, Armenian boys and she met Armenian boys and my brother did not mingle in the, um, socially, growing up with Armenians. So it– you might say it was me. 17:11 JK: That is, that is interesting. Um, when you guys were growing up, did– when you like had friends over or something like that, did they, did your household have any, like, Armenian, um, decorations or anything like that, that like really stood out to you at the time? 17:27 AK: Decorations? 17:28 JK: Or like because I know there a lot of craftsmanship like a lot of people have sewn things or like things that or pictures or photographs that just– 17:39 AK: Of Armenian? 17:39 JK: Yeah. 17:40 AK: No. 17:40 JK: No? 17:41 AK: No. 17:42 JK: So did– when you were growing up, you know, how like people would say oh I am from here or I am from here did it, did you, when you were talking about Armenia if you ever did, did people know about it or knew where you came from? 17:56 AK: Uh, non-Armenians I would not say anything about me being Armenian, you know, and, you know, unless they asked, uh, and I did not know that much background either, um, about it and of course I did not know about the division and, um, and my mother, you see my mother and father were not victims of the genocide because they fled before, you know, and they were like my husband’s family, they were, they were direct victims you know of the genocide and so they talk about it a lot, so it is very hard for me to feel the anger because, uh, or of course born here in United States and my parents being very Americanized, um, there was–there was not that same feeling and, of course, you know when we celebrate April twenty fourth we–I celebrated, of course, but I– it is not like I had any serious feeling because my mother and father were not victims of the genocide. 19:06 JK: Yeah. They fled right before. Interesting. Um, so, uh, when you were growing up, uh, did you move around a lot after college, or– 19:20 AK: No. 19:20 JK: No? You stayed in the area? 19:22 AK: Well I got a job, uh, working in, um Boston and so rather than commuting from home because it was long distance, I stayed with this Armenian woman in Arlington, Massachusetts and that is when I began to, you know, speak a little bit more Armenian with her. 19:43 JK: Okay. And, um, you gra–you said you graduated from Boston University– 19:47 AK: Boston University. 19:47 JK: And what was your degree in? 19:50 AK: It was in Psychology and I minored in Sociology. 19:54 JK: Oh wow, very interesting, very good. Um, and, uh, when you were going back to your childhood, did you in your family celebrate Armenian Christmas at all or like normal– 20:06 AK: Uh, I do not remember. 20:07 JK: You do not remember? 20:08 AK: No, the big Christmas was December 25th. 20:11 JK: Okay, and as you grew up, did you start developing more of those Armenian traditions into your household? Like once you got married and – 20:20 AK: Once I got married, yeah. 20:22 JK: And, um, what, how old were you when you got married? 20:26 AK: Twenty-two. 20:28 JK: And is your husband Armenian? 20:30 AK: Yes. 20:31 JK: And how did you guys meet? 20:33 AK: At an Armenian dance in Massachusetts. 20:35 JK: Oh wow! 20:35 AK: [laughs] 20:38 JK: Um, that is really nice. Um, so after you guys met and everything, moved to where you are now– 20:46 AK: Well he was still in training at– physician, so when we got married we moved to Brooklyn, New York because he was doing his internship. 20:53 JK: Oh wow. 20:54 AK: And then after the internship, we spent, um, five years in Jersey City when he did his surgical residency and then he wanted to do an extra year in, uh, vascular surgery so we stayed there in, um, for five years. 21:13 JK: Okay. 21:14 AK: And, um, it is interesting because when he told me that, you know, he grew, he grew up in the Baptist church because there was no Armenian Church services here, maybe once or twice a year, but his mother was determined that, you know, he gets some religious, you know, um teachings, so I thought oh well this is going to work out fine, we can get married in the Baptist church. But no way were we going to get married in the Baptists church so I had to become baptized in the Armenian Church which was, at that time, in Cambri– not Cambridge, it was outside of Boston, Shawmut Avenue, uh, they were building a new church and it was supposed to be ready when we got married but it was not so, uh, anyway I, on my lunch hour because I worked at the Jordan Marsh, on my lunch hour, I went there and the priest there, um, baptized me, you know, he–with the oil and all of that. And I liked that service it was very meaningful to me and so because, otherwise I would not be able to get married I guess in the Armenian Church but I, I do not know, but anyway, um, so that was that. 22:34 JK: Wow, and then so after that you did get married in an Armenian Church– 22:38 AK: We got married in the Armenian Church, yes, and, of course, our children were all baptized in the Armenian Church but by then, you see, uh, I liked the service of the baptism it is very, very meaningful to me and, and I understand it and it was, it was nice. 22:55 JK: And what made you want to get more involved in the church and the culture of Armenians? 23:01 AK: Well the, uh, the– well first of all, some man from this church here approached me and asked me if I would like to teach Sunday school and, uh, at that time, of course, you know I had missed going to the protestant church because I had missed the sermon– the message. I, I need a message to guide me, if you will, through the, through the week. And, of course, in those days, the Armenian priest really did not give, you know, real messages like the protestant priest ministers do. So, um, I was– when we moved up here, I was going to the congregational church, um, and because there was a profound minister there that I– you know, I came home one Sunday and I said to my husband, you’ve got to come and here him. But anyway, um, they had so many different departments, the had adult bible, they had children’s they had teenage, they had this, so when this man asked me to teach Sunday school, I said how could I say no to a church who has so little, whereas the congregational church had so much. And so, but I did not have any books! So, I went to Davis college bookstore to get some basic things and then whatever I had could get from the dioses and that was, um, that is how it all started. 24:34 JK: Oh wow. So, did you enjoy teaching Sunday school? 24:38 AK: Yes, I did, because it also helped me to learn a little bit about, um, you know, the church and its teachings and, um, then of course I got into the music end because I, I love organ, I love music and, um, and Father Daniel Findikyan at that time was the organist but he was going to be going off so I took lessons on how to quickly learn the music because the, the service is practically all music and so I, I took lessons and, and learned and even though, even though I did not understand a lot of the words, I did not have to. To me, the music was so beautiful and it was a way for me to worship and, um, I, I just, uh, did not, uh, I did not have to know the meaning– you could kind of guess anyway. You do not have to know in order to feel it here in your heart and, um, and so then, of course, I got involved with the central counsel and I went to the dioses for meetings and, um, and I never realized how dedicated these women were for the love of their church. So, uh, it was very interesting because they were talking about, uh, doing the service in English and cutting it short. And I remember going to the archbishop and I was saying, you want to use me as an example you can because I knew nothing about the service, I did not understand it, it was boring and, uh, so I am a– you might say that I am a non-Armenian, you know, spouse coming to the church and I said you cannot–you cannot cut something off and that priests are now doing some things in English which are fine but, um, anyway, it is very interesting. But the most wonderful thing I think is that my mother was able to see because when she was elderly and living here with me, she would come to church and she would sit right in the front pew and she would– she knew all the songs and so she would sing while I am playing. And so, it was nice that she saw that. 27:11 JK: And so, she really enjoyed it I am assuming. 27:13 AK: Oh, yes. Yeah, she really did, she, she enjoys [coughs] excuse me– she enjoyed singing the songs. She knew, she knew it all but she felt that, you know, in those days you went with the religion of your husband. You know, uh, and so– I– you know, before you know when we first got married, of course, whenever he had a Sunday off or was not on call, we would go to the Armenian Church. But I missed the protestant church because that is what I was brought up, you know, in that and um but anyway, um– 27:54 JK: And so, you still played the organ today in church? 27:57 AK: I still play the organ and go to the service, yes. 28:00 JK: Oh wow, and, um, what, when did this start? Like when you started teaching Sunday school, did you have kids during this, or–? 28:08 AK: Yes, I did. Oh, it was about eighteen years but I cannot, uh, I must’ve had, I must’ve had all my children by then. So, it had to be probably in the seventies, I would say, in the seventies when we–because there was once we came back here and he started his practice, we– he got drafted and we went to Viet– to Atlanta, Georgia for, um ,two years. That was during the Vietnam War and, of course, there was a possibility that he could go over but he did not get– it is all about the numbers I guess I am not sure. So, for two years we were down there and, um, I had just had two of my children then, Talene and Anise at that point and so, um, then we came back. So yeah, I, I would have to say late seventies–maybe in the eighties, late eighties. Might have been summer but I cannot remember. 29:15 JK: Oh, that is okay. Um, when you were moving around, like, to Brooklyn and to Jersey City you said and to Atlanta, did there– was there Armenian like did you have an Armenian community there or– 29:26 AK: Well not right around us but we would go to church service whenever he was free if he was not on call. 29:32 JK: Okay. 29:32 AK: You know, because he was doing his residency and so, um, he would say that he’s not on call or we would go to the Union City Church when we were in, um, Brooklyn and in Jersey City. And sometimes we went to the Bayside Church but it was mostly the Union City Church and, um, but when we went to visit my mother, you know, when we went to Massachusetts we did not, we did not go to church, you know– 30:05 JK: So, like that part was not very, uh, alive with Armenian culture like where you were growing. She stayed where you guys were growing up, right, when you were little? 30:14 AK: Right, right. 30:16 JK: So, that is interesting. Um, so by the tie you got to Binghamton you really felt like there was a great definitely an Armenian culture and you really felt, I guess, in your place? Did you feel like oh wow this is wonderful like the Armenian culture– 30:32 AK: Well, I remember when there was the first time there was church service after we were married because I never– we– I never came to Binghamton until after we were married and so, um, when they, when they had a– their church dances if we were in New Jersey we would come up for the weekend and we would go to the dance and I remember, um, being pregnant with [indistinct]. Anyway [laughs]. Um, so, um, so–and then I and then I met a–people in the church–the Armenian people in the church and, you know, and that was it. 31:14 JK: And do you think that the Armenian Church is like a sense of connection with the Armenian culture or do you not–or do you not think that you need the Armenian Church to have like the Armenian background and culture? 31:27 AK: Well it all depends on where you are living. In this case; up here, you do need the church. Yes, if there was no church, um, and–and they were a lot–this–a lot of Armenians who, um, um, do not come to the church their parents may have both been Armenians but then the children may have married once spouse was not Armenian and they usually went with the um 31:56 Unknown: [indistinct] Hi Jackie. 31:57 JK: Hi. 31:57 AK: They usually went to the, um the church of their spouse, in other words if she, if the wife was not Armenian the husband would go to her church. In other words, they were not that dedicated and in wanting to have their children come to the Armenian Church when there was service. Uh, it was not like that, with my husband’s family. It was–it was important and–and, um, because they again they were direct victims of it and, and they all knew how to speak Armenian and not so much write, but some– one of them knows how to read and write. 32:42 JK: Did you–does your husband know how to speak and write Armenian or just–? 32:47 AK: Nor write, but speak. He–he–he–we did take a course when we were living in Brooklyn; we took a course at Columbia. There was an Armenian professor. 33:00 JK: Oh really? Wow. 33:00 AK: Yeah, and so, um, after work, I would stay in New York and then he would come from Jersey City and we would take this course and–because I was not that interested. He was because he was exposed to that importance when he was growing up, versus my parents, even though they were Armenian they did not think it was important to just, you know, got to speak Armenian, got to read, got to this–you know. It depends on where one is living at the time and, of course, you know, my husband said that our girls had to marry Armenians and I said, well, in this area. I said I do not know how you can expect that so I made a point of having them go to summer camp, Saint Nersess, uh, and, and they enjoyed it and they met their friends there and that is what prompted them to go to social functions. They, they– you had to do that otherwise there was no opportunity here to, you know, meet an Armenian boy. 34:10 JK: Yeah, so you took them, growing up you took them–y our children to summer camp? 34:13 AK: Yeah, when they were in like junior high, high school. Maybe ninth or eight grade, ninth grade. 34:20 JK: And do you remember when they were growing up, did they have a lot of Armenian friends that they were, that were their age? 34:26 AK: Not here in the community. 34:27 JK: Not in the area? 34:28 AK: No. There was not. 34:30 JK: Wow! So, the only really exposure was the church and then the summer camps. 34:36 AK: Uh-huh. But it–and at the church that one time there was a youth group and, um, only one or two of my, my children fit in with their age. And, so, the mothers of those aged children took on being, you know, being in charge of youth group and for a little while, we, you know, did drive them to like, say, Watertown if there was an ACYOA function going on and–and they went to Armenian functions, uh, social functions dances, um, when they were in college but, um, let me see, especially one, the youngest. My youngest, she met–she met friends and even though she was in Buffalo where there was no Armenian community, the friends would call and they would say come on down and I said you go–you go so they did want to meet Armenians if they could. But if they did not that was not going to stop them from, you know, marrying someone who was a, a decent good boy, you know? 35:48 JK: Yeah, exactly. So, um, going back to when you were married, what was your husband’s profession? 36:00 AK: Well he was studying to become a doctor, a physician. 36:03 JK: Okay, and, um, did you– could you please name your children and their age in relevance to each other? 36:13 AK: Say that again. 36:14 JK: Name your children. 36:15 AK: You want me to name my children? 36:16 JK: Yeah. 36:17 AK: Okay. Uh, Talene, um, Anise, Carnie, Alicia and Lori. And my husband wanted them to have Armenian names, okay? So, of course, me and, you know, um if it was going to be a long Armenian name I said, uh, I am going away [laughs]. And so of course the priest in Union City church at that time said well I have a niece named Talene so we said oh alright I like that. So, then I would give them an American middle name so my mother’s Virginia is Talene Virginia. And you see that was another thing with my mother, all of our names are not Armenian names at all. I mean, they are English, my brother Clive that is not an Armenian name. But my mother was very cosmopolitan type of person even though she knew how to read and write it was it was interesting. They and then from Bulgaria they moved to Paris and, and lived and she lived I think I am jumping around– 37:30 JK: Oh, go ahead, no! 37:31 AK: Oh, anyway it was just her and her mother because again her father died of natural causes and her brother died of–in an accident so it– she used to go to this factory and sew these very fine, fine sequins on, uh, royalty gowns. 37:54 JK: Oh wow. 37:55 AK: And she would pass by the ca–the Notre Dame Cathedral. And she would always go in there and light a candle. So, um, anyway. What were we saying? [laughs] Oh, uh, the names! And then of course, um, Anise is a really–Ani but I said well that is too short, Ani, no that is too short so I added “S-E” on it and her middle name is Anne. And then, um, Carnie is really, well her godparents their daughter’s name was Carnie so I said if I need to–if I need to use that name, if I am having trouble and they said, of course. But Carnie is really after a town–not or a town I guess–Garnie see, Gar-nie is really what it is. But, he, he made it Carnie so she’s Carnie Noelle because she was in December baby. So I got my American name in there, you know, and then, of course, Loring–my–Loring is–means quail and that is [phone rings] that is an Armenian name. 39:07 JK: Yeah. 39:10 AK: Do not forget your, do not forget your– (End of Recording 1) 39:19 JK: So, this is a continuation of Adrian Kachadourian’s interview, part two. This is Jackie Kachadourian and I am interviewing with the Binghamton University Armenian Oral History project and today is March 13th, uh, 2017. So, um, what does it mean for you to be an Armenian here in–living in America today? 39:48 AK: Well I always feel that, um, to be a good American I would, um, want to show what a good Armenian I am. Uh, and I have always said this in–in speeches that I have made, that to be a good American you should be a good Armenian in the sense of you know, um, be for your citizen uh to support your culture and to be proud that you’re Armenian and share it and–and rather than, you know, not being proud that you’re an Armenian. 40:32 JK: And do you consider yourself–what do you consider yourself to be? Like a American or Armenian-American, or Armenian or– 40:41 AK: I consider myself an American-Armenian because I was born in this country. 40:47 JK: Okay, and, um, do you think that you can remain Armenian without the Armenian language? 40:53 AK: Yes. 40:54 JK: Or the church or the homeland? 40:56 AK: Yes. 40:57 JK: And now why is that? 40:59 AK: Well because, I would, um, continue with, um, the, uh, my culture in my home and, um, and expose what it is to be an Armenian to my grandchildren, uh, you know, the food, the language, well, I even try to you know teach some, some words in Armenian. They know certain words and, um, and that is that. It would be more difficult, I think, for my grandchildren because now we are, we are now all we are in our elder years, but for them if there was not a church, uh, it would be harder, uh, for them to perpetuate. Especially up here in this community because it is, um, all–spouses are not all Armenian, you know, and so it, it, it could be more difficult unless grandparents, uh, pursue the idea of showing and teaching their grandchildren. 42:13 JK: Now, um, have you travelled to other places in the United States that are– have a bigger Armenian population in their community but do not necessarily have the church as their kind of connection? Or have you seen anything– 42:28 AK: No, I have. Yes, I have. When I was, um, involved with Women’s Guild central council which is sort of like the national, um, um, organization that oversees all the Women’s Guilds and when I was chairman, I did go to, um, different states, you know. And, uh, and I realized how strong the, um, the women were in relation to love of their church and, um, and how it– they, they were very active. But because they also had the, um, population, you know, uh, certain cities like Watertown, Massachusetts and Jersey and New York, well not so much New York, but New Jersey so, um, there is a bond. They all, you know, do things, uh, for their, uh, for their church but it is more the older women because the younger mothers are working, see so it is a different, different thing now. It is the mothers, the women, the grandmothers who are in the kitchen, you know. But, uh, anyway, yes it, it does. 43:45 JK: And so, do you think without the church here in Binghamton, uh, we would have a less, lesser bond in the Armenian culture and– 43:54 AK: Yes. I do because of, um, first of all, uh, a lot of the Armenians that came here to this church, uh, when we did not have a church and maybe they had services twice a year, uh, and if their spouses were not if one spouse was not Armenian they would go to Protestant Church or Catholic Church. Uh, depending on what uh the spouse’s religion was, and they do not have that sense of, um, well, you know, for Armenian Christmas I should come to the Armenian Church they do not have that feeling too much of the children now, the mothers have and, and grandmothers they’ve all gone. But now the mothers, uh, of the children and there is a lot of Armenians here but they–they are not interested they have not been brought up in the church I guess, maybe, I do not know the reason, uh, that, uh, they do not come. And I have I have said to some of the women, um, I said, you know, I said maybe for these feast days you might– our Women’s Guild is having the dinner, the Armenian dinner maybe you could come after your church service, but they do not have that strong feeling. 45:19 JK: Yeah. I see that too. Um, so you said you were part of the Women’s Guild with the church, can you explain some of the things that, uh, you as a group do? 45:28 AK: The idea of the Women’s Guild is to help, um, uh, support, uh, functions, uh, in the church and, um, we, uh, if the Parish Council wants us to do something, we will do it. We, we have fundraisers, well, primarily the dinners, the Armenian Christmas Dinner the Lentin Dinner, um, and, uh, and we, uh, we pay for, for example we pay for the flowers on the altar, the Women’s Guild takes care of that. We take care of the gifts for the children at Christmas time and, uh, and Easter the flowers, uh, and if, if they need help, you know, if the Parish Council needs help. But it is very interesting because at one time, not so much now, but at one time the Women’s Guild was really involved in every aspect of the church. There were some that sang in the choir, there were some that were on Parish Council, uh, and so they really were and, um, I have said in my speeches to other, um, churches I said the, um, Women’s Guild is not like the gardening club or, um, or the, um, oh what’s that organization, Junior League. I said you join those because you want to get something out of it, but in relation to the Women’s Guild, it is what you put into it and, um, because it is a church, you know, organization and, of course, some Women’s Guilds say they, you know, so large they’ve got hundreds of members. We only have nine but, uh, nonetheless, if we need them to make a dish or they put on a coffee hour, for our purposes its, its fine. 47:26 JK: Yeah. And when did you start coming–working with the Armenian, uh, Women’s Guild with the Armenian Church here in Binghamton? 47:35 AK: Uh– 47:35 JK: Do you remember? 47:36 AK: Well, when I was married and we finally came here after my husband’s training and he started to practice, um, that is when I began to get, uh, involved but not that much because my children were little. But, you know, if they needed help, and then one gentleman from the church asked me if I would like to teach Sunday school and, of course, I knew nothing about, uh, um, teaching Sunday School in relation to teaching them the Armenian religion. Okay, so and at that time, they did not have a good curriculum at the Diocese that I could tap so that is how I really learned by teaching them. And I, I just went to the, um, Davis College, they have a wonderful religious store so, um, I got material from there and, um, I picked up some material from the Diocese, they would put out a letter or whatever and, uh, I would, uh, teach them that way and I taught for eighteen years. 48:46 JK: Oh, wow that is amazing. 48:48 AK: Right, and then, of course, with the organ, because being musically inclined, and I’ve always loved the organ, that when father Daniel, you know, left because he was the organist. [mutters indistinctly] Is that alright? Yeah, okay. When he left, I sl– I kind of slipped in there, like the back door and I took lessons on how to play this music right away because the following week, or whenever, there was the service next, I said oh I am how am I going to play this? Because our service is continual music. And so, I went to an organ teacher and she helped me to quickly learn the right hand and the left hand quickly and, uh, as I you know played more I, uh, I was able to do it. But that was another problem because every priest that came, if–we did not have a full-time priest, every priest that came, his idea of what I should do was different from the next priest! 49:53 JK: Oh yeah. 49:53 AK: So, there was not coordination there, of course, now there is and I thought mm what is he talking about? I did not learn this, you know! [laughs] and, um, uh, so–so that was that, but you know I grew up in the Protestant Church so all of this was very, very strange to me and even today when I am playing, I do not know the words to all the music. But it is so beautiful I do not have to know the words. 50:23 JK: Yeah, you can feel it. 50:23 AK: Yes, exactly. 50:25 JK: And did you play the organ all your life and then you just– 50:28 AK: No. 50:28 JK: Oh no, so you started learning during the time you were going to the church or–? 50:32 AK: Well, we were–we were musically involved because I play the harp, see, and I learned to play the piano from the harp. And, um, I even when I took lessons from the teacher, she would come to the church and she told me about all the keys you know as far as I am concerned, if I am going to do this, I want to do it right. And, uh, so you know she told me, um, how to do this and, um, but I, I, I love music I belong to the organ theatre, uh, society here and, um, so that was not difficult. But the reason I accepted being a teacher even though I did not know anything about the Armenian religion, really, was because I used to go to the Congregational Church and, um, and I, I joined the adult bible group and they were all senior citizens and at that time I was expecting my second child. And here I am, very pregnant and all of these grandparents in the class but it was the class that I liked and so when he asked me I could not say no because here this big church with all of several bible classes that you could pick from and this organization and that, uh, organization and the women’s group. I felt very guilty so that is why I said yes to this little church, um, even though I did not know what I was doing but, uh, I– my roots were because of the protestant church and that is how it, you know, that is how it began. 52:18 JK: And do you think, uh, this– let’s go back to like the size of the church. Do you think it is still the same like now than it was before, because you were mentioning it is small, uh, compared to– 52:30 AK: Well, we used to have a youth group and, um, what’s happened now is that, uh, our, our community is getting old and but what something is more beautiful is that we have all these little children. So, we have all these little children and all these grandparents and great-grandparents, uh, that are in the church. So, these children are going to be the future of that church if they do not move out, you know, sometimes we will get students from SUNY [State University of New York] and that is nice but there is no, there are not any teenagers, so we do not have a youth group. We did have a very active youth group and, of course, these, uh, children, uh, they did not stay here with the exception of one or two families. They, they left and got married and, you know, and, you know, we have often, we have often thought of, um, tapping the alumni of this church if you will uh to um well we, we were going to have something– I guess on the anniversary of our church. We kind of asked them if they would like to give you know, uh, something for their church because that is where they grew up and um and uh so that is um that is what it is. And, um, you know, ultimately, um, I do not think we will ever have a full-time priest again because it really is not, it really is not necessary now. And, of course, we have two wonderful priests twice a month and, uh, so and they are very dedicated. If you need them for anything, even though they are travelling, um, they will, they, they help and of course the ̶ of Father, Father Arshen, she will teach the children, the older children so now they are kind of looking for maybe someone who might teach the younger ones because it is too much of a, a, a, a gap, yes. So, um, so right now, uh, and it is wonderful just, you know, just to see that. But our church, our little church has ordained let me see, one, two, maybe three priests, you know, uh, and of course one of them grew up here. And so again, our little church is like a mustard seed but we do manage to perpetuate, if you will, and, um, and that is it. 55:14 JK: Do you see it, uh, growing in the future at all, like with the youth group coming back or no? 55:21 AK: The youth group that left? 55:22 JK: Or that– like disappeared because the generation kept– got older do you see like the church coming back with like Sunday school or like bigger populations or staying stagnant? 55:35 AK: I, I, I do not see it, of course, with these children, uh, and–we have–you have to look at the parents of the children, uh, uh, are they going to stay here and grow old here, uh, which probably most likely they will. Um, so I, I do not know if it will. I, I think it will be perpetuated but I do not think it is going to be something that will be like it was a long time ago unless we have a big influx of people but, uh, I do not see that. I, I may be wrong but I do not see that. 56:15 JK: Yeah. Um, there is also a lot of, or a few, Binghamton University students that come in here and then– here and now, like, to the church services. And do you see that as a as a good influence? Do you see a lot of Binghamton University students come, or is it like once in a while, a few of them? 56:35 AK: Uh, once in a while. Now, there was one that came, uh, and, um, he knew Father Daniel and he also knows the service, he has had served on the altar, uh, and he can also play the organ. So, I thought, hmm, this is good, uh, when I cannot play and, um, but then he–he got transferred to Michigan. Because I asked Father Daniel about him I said, you know, I have not seen Arthur, where, you know, and he said well he got transferred. So, students coming, uh, they– you know, it depends I guess where they come from. If they come from, um, a big church like, um, uh, in Queens, Holy Martyrs for example, um maybe they do not want to come to church because they moved away from home and–and then they go home for, for the holidays. So, um, but we did have a, a se– a couple from Armenia and, uh, and they were wonderful. They– that is came and they would help if we needed help and then they went back and, of course, we were sad. And one family, and he had children, they di– the children did not want to go back, they wanted to stay but, you know, but, uh, I do not know, they, they went back so. 58:02 JK: Very interesting. Um how do you think your children define being Armenian compared to yourself? Um, do you think there is a difference or its– 58:12 AK: No there is not a difference, uh, because I was, um, I was very Americanized okay see so, um, and, uh, the fact of the genocide and all of that is not as– I mean I do not even, uh, they know about the genocide but we do not talk about it on a regular basis. My mother never told me the differences between a Tashnag and a, um, a Ramgavar and this thing and that thing. She knew all of that but she, she did not and I think it is because she married into a family that was very Americanized and Protestant and she just put all of that on the back shelf, if you will. It is like she gave it up. Um, and, uh, but my husband’s family, uh, they are direct victims and, of course, they talked all the time about the genocide and about his parents and how they fled and so it is more meaningful you know to them. And, of course, they, um, learned Armenian, uh, they spoke ar– they were, they were–spoke to them in Armenian and expected them to respond in Armenian so it really, uh, I was like an outsider when I first went to, to the service I did not understand it, it was– So, I think my children are also the same way. But they, they like going to church. My youngest daughter is trying to get her baby, you know, baptized and, um, but that is important to her but, you know, as far as her when she was in Connecticut living, there is a wonderful Armenian Church there I knew the priest, I said go to church on Sunday, go to church and she did, see. But it is, it is oh, well, it is, you know, it is not that different, it is a different generation. 1:00:16 JK: Yeah, and how do you see it with your grandchildren, do you think they are going to have– 1:00:21 AK: They will be exposed to the church, uh, as far as, um, speaking Armenian in the home, not, uh, and, uh, but they will also–as they grow up will be exposed to opportunities. That is one thing about the, uh, Armenian culture the–the social aspect is wonderful and I am thankful because being up here not having a large social– I was going to make sure that they went to Saint Nersess camp because that is where they met their friends. You see, and even though they were not near each other, when they went off to college, the friends would call and they would say, you know, this weekend why do not you come down from Buffalo? And so, I would encourage that, I would say you study Monday through Friday, you take a couple days off and you go, and this is how they met Armenian friends because being girls, you are not going to go to a dance by yourself. So that is why it, it, it that is one thing I will have to say. Now do the Irish have anything like this? Probably the Greeks do, but do the Italians have anything so that you can meet an Italian? But, um, this–this was this was how I got involved by meeting some Armenians when I went to college. 1:01:48 JK: Now why do you think the Armenian heritage is like that here in America compared to like other uh ethnicities like you were saying Italian or um Irish or other uh ethnicities do not really do this. Why do you think the Armenians have a tendency to stay together? 1:02:07 AK: Well the Armenians love to socialize amongst themselves and, um, they fight a lot you know they are very, thing, but when it comes to food and the culture and the socialization, it really is ̶ they, they enjoy that. Yeah and, and the service is really very beautiful and, um, going to the cathedral, it is just–it is just wonderful. 1:02:38 JK: Yes, of course. So, um, what would define you as an individual, what makes you most Armenian? What did–what would you say for yourself? 1:02:51 AK: That is a good question. Um, I would– uh, it is a good question. I’ll have to think about that. 1:03:02 JK: Of course, do you want me to go to another question? 1:03:04 AK: Yeah, okay. 1:03:05 JK: Okay, um, so let us see, uh do you think uh the dis–hav–being a diaspora has affected you or your Armenian identity or like living here in America compared to like let’s say living in Armenia, being connected with the homeland compared to– 1:03:29 AK: I do not really have, no. I do not really have any, uh, I do not even care to go to see Armenia to visit Armenia. Um, first of all, because I do not like to fly, but I have never been, uh, one of my daughters went and, um, uh, they–they do not have that desire to go to the homeland and I think it is because in the small community like this when you are immersed with non-Armenians, um, uh, I, I do not know. They are not, uh, they are not ashamed that their Armenians. In fact, when I, um, when I am talking to someone or if I am speaking to someone that has an accent I will ask them, oh, what nationality are you and then they, they would tell me and I would say well I am Armenian. And uh I said you know if they look kind of puzzled because they do not know what it is, I will say it is like the Greeks and, um, but that is, you know, I would not go to times square, you know, when they have that big, uh, celebration of the genocide, you know, in times square it is a big to do. Uh, eh, I, I do not care to go there and say, you know, here I am Armenian, that type of thing and of course I know that some Armenians will say oh vote for this man who is running for president because he’s for the Armenians, that does not bother me. That does not faze me as being patriotic in that sense, no it is just that I am Armenian and if the opportunity arises, that I would say well I am Armenian that is what I would do. I would not hide it but, you know, if somebody looks at my name they will say oh that is an interesting name I said well it is Armenian and I-A-N means the son of and the word Kach is cross and they say “Oh that is nice!” You know, so, um, but there are some people who do not know it at all and I remember when we went to, uh, when we were going into the army in Georgia–Atlanta, Georgia now this was in (19)67, okay? Or (19)76, okay? And so, uh, she was asking me about the name. We were definitely in a southern store and she was asking me about the name and I said, uh, I said oh well it is Armenian and she said “what is that?” And so, I tried to explain, you know, and she–never heard of it. She was a southerner and so, uh, she asked where we were from and I said “New York,” she says “Well.” She says “We love all you Yankees.” So, right then and there I could tell the, the south, the Deep South, uh, how they are, you know, it was interesting. I never–what is that? But that was, you know, in the (19)70s so. 1:06:35 JK: It is crazy. Um, so, how do you think, uh, your children, uh, will be defined as being Armenian? How do you think they will do, they do, they consider themselves more American than Armenian, in that sense, or– 1:06:52 AK: Well, um, I think they are proud that they are Armenian. They like the food, they love the food and the dance, the music. 1:07:02 JK: Yes. 1:07:02 AK: Um, and of course they bring, they bring their children to the Armenian Church and, of course, one of the spouses is non-Armenian and, um, so that is, that is not a pri–it is important that they can have, um, them learn, you know, like the Lord’s Prayer in Armenian and some of the songs. And what’s interesting is towards the ends of the service two of my grandchildren, um, come right up and sit with me at the, at the organ; one on each side and so, uh, and I can hear them singing the songs so that is good. And, and, uh, they will, that will ultimately be their church it–it is their church they were christened in the Armenian Church. That to me is more important that they are, um, baptized in the Armenian Church because they can go to any church and, and they are members so, uh, of the Armenian Church and I, I think that is what important. Not, you know, being die-hard it is the Armenian Church and no other church type thing because that is not how we were brought up. My mother and father exposed us, you know, to, to the protestant church, of course, and a little bit of the Armenian Church but, of course, distance was a problem then, too. There was no Armenian Church in rural Massachusetts where I was living so and I used to get embarrassed if they talked Armenian in public, see? 1:08:36 JK: Oh yeah. 1:08:36 AK: So, um, but then when I got married and we came to New York, on the subway, I would talk in Armenian to my husband [laughs] and so and it was funny because we went to France one year to the to the, um, one of the islands. I cannot think of it now where all the French go. And In those days the French did not like the Americans so, instead of speaking English, I would speak Armenian so they would not think were from the United States. [laughs] 1:09:09 JK: That is so funny, that is so funny I like that. Um, so you said your husband’s side of your, the family was very Armenian– 1:09:19 AK: Yes. 1:09:19 JK: And did you see like when you were raising your children the differences uh in certain uh circumstances that would ha– to partake like for example if he would want something more Armenian more cultured, effect or would you be more Americanized and do something a different way, did you see that ever? 1:09:39 AK: I am not sure I, I understand, honey. 1:09:41 JK: So, like if, um, since he was grown up, uh, with more of Armenian uh background very, it sounds very strict like Armenian uh traditions. 1:09:54 AK: The, uh, the– a language. It was important that they spoke to them in Armenian. 1:10:00 JK: Okay. 1:10:01 AK: And, and answered in Armenian because, excuse me, when they were growing up, there was not a–they went to the Baptist church because my mother-in-law felt that, um, it, it, it was good, it was good that they went to the Baptist church. And he learned a lot of his bible verses which, you know, and, and was taught well. But one time, um, my husband said to his mother, you know, uh, these the kids are getting baptized in the Baptist church I want to get baptized in the Baptist church. And, of course, uh, she, she would not allow that. She said no, she said when there is church, uh, Armenian Church service you are going to go to the Armenian Church service and ultimately, he did get baptized but it was like he was a teenager. He did not understand, uh, because there was no service but, but that that strong Armenian feeling was instilled in them in the home even though they did not have church every Sunday, that was, you know, speak the language was very important to them. 1:11:11 JK: Very interesting. Um, so uh going back to the diaspora, what do you think uh are the differences between the Armenians of the diaspora and those who are live in the homeland? Do you see any, like, differences or things you’ve read about or– 1:11:28 AK: Well, uh, yeah. I do not think they have, uh, uh, the, the Armenians in this country. I do not think the, the second generation. Okay if the grand–parents and grandparents came from abroad and came here that is one thing but if the parents are born in this country, their children, um, I do not, I do not know it, it all depends on which community you go to. If there is a, a huge Armenian community with all sorts of things going on, ACYOA, ASA all of these things, they are going to, uh, perpetuate, you know, and some, some parents insist, insist, that their children marry Armenians. And I have seen I have seen in one case when I was in college this, uh, Greek boy, uh, was in love with this Armenian boy was in love with a Greek girl and the pain that the parents put them through because she was not Armenian, uh, I could not believe this. See this was totally, this was not what my parents would, would, uh, say or do, you know, they were not that way at all so um and–and they ultimately did get married but it, it put a strain, it was terrible. So, I do not know if the parents were from abroad or if they– some, some are even born here. Some priests are born here but they are very strict about certain things. You know, so, uh, its, it is hard, it is hard to say but I, I, you know, there are some parishes where the families are American born and more Americanized and so they–they want a priest that is more Americanized if, you know what I mean. JK: Oh, okay yes, that is interesting. Um, do you think the diaspora has its own identity here in America, or– 1:13:42 AK: Identity in what sense? 1:13:44 JK: Like their own, uh, Armenian tr–like they develop new Armenian traditions that are different than you would see in traditional Armenia back in, before the genocide or when, uh, families used to live there before they had to migrate here to the United States or other places. Do you see it as, uh, different traditions developing in the United States rather than Armenia? Or like food or culture or anything like that–? 1:14:18 AK: Hm, no, uh, I do not think so. But, again, I would not know what the traditions are in Armenia, not, you know, I mean not going there but I think from what I understand that, um, that the cathedral, uh, in Armenia I th– I do not think you can sit I think it is standing only. Uh, I am not sure but um I, I, I think that some habits of, of Armenians that have come here to this country, um, it is a different, it is a different type of, um, feeling. They have the feeling, they have the feeling no matter if there is a church or not, okay, and if they– when they came to church if there was a church in the community, it was not to worship. That is it, I do not see that they, that the, the worship part of the service is meaningful to them. I, I do not think they are religious in that sense and, uh, coming from abroad, I think the reason they found this church here was to come together to talk in the back, okay, to play cards or backgammon or whatever. It was, um, it was not important that they come real–the service was not that it, it was more like, um, there is a church we got to go to church, that is it. Whereas for me, it had to have a meaning and, of course, the meaning through the communion. Now, I know there is a lot of grandparents, older people that do not take communion because it is not something they feel here, you see. So that may be more of an American, you know, type thing. Um, but it, it is, it is, it is beautiful it really is to go up there and confess. But there are some people, even young people, in our church, uh, for whatever reason, they do not go up. It does not mean anything to them and I think the older generation that came from abroad, uh, there was a church that meant it– they could socialize that they are in a country where now–where they can speak Armenian to another friend. And my mother told me she said the word “odar” which means, um, a non-Armenian, in other words if, if I saw somebody, oh, they are odars. She said “That is wrong,” she said “We Armenians that have come to this country, we are the odars” because odar in English means stranger. So, we are the strangers that have come to this country, and I never forgot that. So, when I hear somebody saying odar I said “No we are, we are the odars, not the not the others.” So, I say, you have to say non-Armenian. [laughs] 1:17:26 JK: That is interesting. Um, going back to, uh, I forgot to ask earlier. So, Kachadourian is now your last name and the I-A-N means son of or some–the occupation that the family would do. Um, uh, for your last name, your family’s last name, do you know what it was, or–? 1:17:45 AK: Uh, it does not have any meaning and my last name did not have any I-A-N on it. It Encher and, um, from what I understand, my mother said that they cut it short when they were over in, uh, Harput. For whatever reason, I do not know, but they came to this country as Encher and she said that at probably at one point it was Encherion. Now, I do not think it has any specific meaning as to, you know– 1:18:19 JK: –Yeah, the occupation. What about Kachadourian because, um, kach means cross, right, and I-A-N. Do you know any relation that has to do with anything or¬¬, um– 1:18:30 AK: Keeper of the cross. That is what it stands for. 1:18:33 JK: Okay that is what my mom was saying. She was saying it means to hold onto the cross and like– 1:18:37 AK: Keeper of the cross, yeah. 1:18:39 JK: Oh, okay is not that interesting. Very interesting. Um, so, uh, do you see the diaspora here in America different in different places for example let’s say Binghamton in comparison to like new places in New Jersey that have, uh, bigger Armenian population. Do you see differences in that? Like– 1:19:02 AK: Differ– what kind of differences? 1:19:05 JK: Um, like culture or the way they view the church? 1:19:09 AK: Hm, no I do not think so. 1:19:11 JK: No? 1:19:11 AK: No. It is, um, it is more, um, uh, no. They, they have their dances. They– the service is, the service is, is the same. Wherever you go the service is the same. They may have, em, um, early, uh, mode type of service, you know, type of thing but it is basically the same. Yeah. 1:19:40 JK: So, you think the, um, do you think that the service is really the foundation for like the church and everything like that-that is what really, like, uh, hones us to the Armenian culture. 1:19:53 AK: Yeah. 1:19:59 JK: Yes. Okay, interesting. Um, let’s see. Uh, what role do–does the homeland–homeland play in shaping the diaspora identity? Do you have any comments on that or–? 1:20:11 AK: You mean influence? Um, I, I, I do not, I do not think it can in influence us but I think that they, they– the Armenians do have a love of their homeland I mean some, a lot– some of them do. They go over, uh, and, uh, so I– and they support, you know, through organs–through fundraising and–and what not. There is a lot of orphans and so, uh, they, they do help their homeland I believe. Uh, we help by, by supporting, um, orphans, you know, uh, in Armenia. I– when I say we, I am talking about the guild, the Women’s guild. They support, uh, they support orphans, uh, as far as, uh, uh, my husband and I, you know, supporting their– they do have, um, uh, huge organizations. There is AGBU, there is that– we, we do not give on a regular basis, once in a while we may but we–we support by–by way of the church, you know, or that diocese here sends–sends out a, uh, uh, letter that, um, this is what’s going on, the church will support. Some individual families do, you know, there are foundations and–or if, if a loved one dies they will start a foundation, you know, so but the, uh, up here it is through the church. 1:22:00 JK: Yeah. Um so going back to uh the question earlier, what makes you Armenian, uh do you have an answer for that or are you still– 1:22:11 AK: Uh, it is, uh, it is just because I am Armenian, that is my nationality and, um, I, uh, I enjoy, uh, the culture and the service and–and that is, uh, that is I would say that is it. 1:22:31 JK: Do you think there is going to be a difference, uh, between the older generation and the younger one, uh, living in this community, uh, of what makes them Armenian and, like, uh, the events they might go to or, uh, cultures they might stick with or, uh, or may not utilize as they have their own family. Do you see that growing into them? Like, for example, they might not speak Armenian or learn it to their children do you see that happening or–? 1:23:06 AK: Well, uh, it is, it is happening with, uh, our children, uh, we do not, uh, we do not speak Armenian to them in the home and we do not expect them to res–. When they were growing up, uh, we taught them the Lord’s Prayer in Armenian and, uh, but that was it. It was more important, I think, uh, for my husband to–that they marry an Armenian, okay, and I think that that was instilled in them by his parents. Okay, and, um ,but that is not, that was not important to me but, yet, on the other hand, um, now, uh, certainly, uh, my grandchildren I think would be, would go to like Saint Nersess camp to, to–to meet, uh, Armenians so that they can, you know socialize, and go to these functions. Because otherwise how else would they meet someone? In other words, it would be easier to meet an Armenian versus meeting a non-Armenian, uh, uh, unless, of course, somebody introduced you to them, a non-Armenian or unless you went to a bar, you know, in other words, that is the one thing about the, uh, uh, Armenian culture, there is opportunity to meet, uh, um, Armenians. 1:24:34 JK: And do you think because of that, uh, sense of nature I guess, uh, that is what really kept the Armenian, keeps the Armenian culture strong today? Especially in America– 1:24:46 AK: Yeah, I think so. But, of course, we have our churches and, you know, that feeling is, is very strong and, and the children growing up, uh, like just say in New Jersey, Saint Leon’s church, it is so big that they, um, the only non-Armenian friends they have is when they go to school. And depending on, I guess, but on the weekends, okay, they are involved in Armenian Church functions. Um, now up here, we do not have Armenian Church functions so I know my grandchildren are involved in, um, sports and soccer and baseball and what have you. And, uh, so they are–they mingle with all of these people, you know, they get together with the parents and they socialize but, um, growing up, now will they be forced to marry, try to make– marry and Armenian? I do not think so but going to, uh, because they were brought up in, in the Armenian Church, uh, see the church in that sense is important because during the rest of the week, they are with non-Armenian people and non-Armenian parents and their friends and whatnot, yeah. So, uh, I know that, um, my daughter will most likely send, um, uh, you know, send her children to an Armenian camp and, um, and, and go, you know, go from there. 1:26:26 JK: Alright, well thank you so much would you like to add anything else that I may not–mentioned or asked? 1:26:35 AK: I do not think so, honey. 1:26:38 JK: No? Okay thank you so much. 1:26:39 AK: Well that is that? Okay. Tell me when the– 1:26:42 (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Adrian Kachadourian Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9b1fd80e80122a2e151daa018960497f.mp3 2d88dc7b4b664702b1f831d9b1db9f48 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/24/2016 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ara Kradjian Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 21:42 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ara was the son of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to the United States in 1920. Ara was born and raised in Binghamton which is where he resides now with his 2 sons. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Ara Kradjian (1933-2018) was the son of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to the United States in 1920. Ara was born and raised in Binghamton. He graduated from University of Pennysalvania with a B.S.E in Economics. After graduation, Ara served as a Lieutenant with the U.S. Naval Construction Battalion for two years. Ara returned to Binghamton, where he joined to his family business at Kradjian Properties and Bates Troy Laundry and Dry Cleaning. He is survived by his wife and his two sons. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Church; Sunday school; Endicott Johnson; cooking; traditional roles; Armenian diaspora; gender roles; immigration; "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Church; Sunday school; Endicott Johnson; cooking; traditional roles; Armenian diaspora; gender roles; immigration Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Ara Kradjian Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 24 March 2016 Interview Setting: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 GS: Okay, so, my name is Gregory Smaldone. I am here interviewing Dr. Ara Kradjian for the Armenian Oral History Project for the Special Collections Department at Binghamton University Library. Dr. Kradjian if you can please introduce yourself. 0:17 AK: My name is Ara Kradjian. I live in 823 Sky Lane Terrace in Endwell. I was born here eighty-two years ago. And I think I am going to die here. 0:34 GS: Can you tell us about your parents, what were their names, what were their immigration status? 0:39 AK: My father’s name was Kenneth, or Kevan Kradjian. He was born in Hadjin [Haçin], Turkey around 1901. He lived to be ninety-nine years old. He came to this country 1920. His brother came over about a year or two before him. So the two of them partnered and became successful business men in the Binghamton community. 1:17 GS: And what about your mother? 1:20 AK: My mother’s maiden name was Haigouhi Asarian. She was born in Istanbul and my father went back to the old country and he met her in Marseilles in 1930 when they married and he brought her back to Binghamton. 1:44 GS: Were your parents genocide survivors? 1:47 AK: Both of them were, yes. 1:48 GS: Did they ever talk to you about their experiences? 1:52 AK: Yes they did. 1:56 S: Would you be willing to share what they shared with you? 2:00 AK: My mother had an interesting incident. She was very young and her father had died. Her mother had remarried and there was ̶ They were going on this death march I believe and they were able to flee only because a relative, an uncle, was actually, he was Armenian, he was the captain of the Turkish army, and somehow they were able to flee, they saw death and destruction all over but my mother had to leave her mother's side and go to an orphanage because her mother's new husband and child; they did not have enough food to feed everybody. So they went through difficult times. 3:05 GS: I can imagine. So you said that you were born and raised here in Binghamton. 3:08 AK: That is correct. 3:09 GS: How many siblings do you have in the family? 3:11 AK: I have three sisters. 3:14 GS: Older or younger? 3:17 AK: Let us see ̶ one older and two younger. 3:22 GS: Okay, growing up would you say you hung out mostly with Armenian children or non-Armenian children or were your kinship groups some form of combination of two? 3:32 AK: I would say there was more ̶ once I got into school after five years old, I hung out more with non-Armenian children because the community here was very small, the Armenian community. That is the only reason. We kept in touch through the Armenian church on Cooperate Avenue. That was our common bond. 3:58 GS: Tell me about that, so the church was kind of the social space for the Armenian community? 4:02 AK: Yes it was. 4:03 GS: Would you say you just went every week for church service or was there an expanded presence there? 4:09 AK: The church service was really only once a month because we couldn’t afford to have a full-time priest but they had like a children’s Sunday school every Sunday. 4:22 GS: So you went to that? 4:23 AK: Yes, which kept everything going. 4:26 GS: Would that meet for say, two hours every Sunday or ̶ 4:29 AK: Yeah, yeah. 4:30 GS: And was there usually a reception or something after or was it just come and leave? 4:36 AK: Yeah ̶ there would be a coffee hour, depends who would pick up the children. 4:44 GS: And then at that time would all the children socialize together? 4:49 AK: A little bit, yeah. 4:50 GS: So the church, even when the church was not being utilized for religious services it was very much a social space. 4:55 AK: No question about it. 4:57 GS: Would you say that your experience of only really, would you say your experience of having a mostly non Armenian friend group outside of the church was typical of children your age in the community? 5:10 AK: In this Armenian community I would say yes. 5:12 GS: In this Armenian community ̶ good specification, thank you ̶ what were the roles of your parents in the household, what roles did each of them have, did they both go to work, did one stay at home and manage the household? 5:24 AK: Yeah, my father was a workaholic and my mother raised the family. 5:30 GS: What did your father do? 5:31 AK: Well he started off working for the shoe factory here before I was born ̶ this is the home of, at Endicott Johnson and they employed 20,000 immigrants at that time ̶ supplied all work shoes and military shoes for the whole of the united states and after a couple years there, he and his brother and his first cousin bought their own dry cleaning and tailor shop close to where they used to work in the shoe factory. And then they moved from there and they bought out their cousin. And then after World War II, they were able to take over a larger established laundry and then after my uncle’s son Harry and I got out of college in the (19)50s actually, I got out maybe 1957 we came to work at father and uncle's laundry and experimented from there. 6:50 GS: Okay, I am assuming both of your parents spoke fluent Armenian. 6:53 AK: Yes. 6:54 GS: Naturally. Did they teach you and you siblings Armenian growing up? 7:00 AK: Yeah, we learned to, a while back we learned to speak, I never was very good reading and writing Armenian. I could speak it and understand. 7:14 GS: How frequently was it spoken in the household? 7:20 AK: From ages one up until through elementary school I would say was more common, but my mother knew English when she came to this country, she had gone to an American University in Istanbul. But my father went to night school in this country and he learned English and he spoke it pretty well, and he could probably read it. He went to night school and became fluent as soon as he could. 7:51 GS: So could you tell me, did you teach your children how to speak Armenian? 8:00 AK: No, I did not, even though I married a, an Armenian girl, who was born in Tehran Iran, she spoke. They picked up bits and pieces, but we became more of an American household but we always could speak with our relatives in Armenian but my children could understand it a little bit but did not speak it very well. 8:33 GS: Would you say that growing up your mother tended to cook Armenian food in the house and was that an important part of your identity? 8:42 AK: I think so, yes, very much so. 8:45 GS: Would you say that was common throughout the Armenian community, was food what touched us? 8:50 AK: Absolutely. 8:51 GS: Okay, cool, so let us focus a little bit on your family, can you tell me, your wife’s name, how many children you have and what they are doing now? 9:01 AK: Okay, my wife’s name was Sophie Boudaghian and we married 19 years, then she passed away with a blood disorder and in the meantime we had two boys, Eric and Brian and they both went to local high schools and Brian went on to college, graduation and came into the family business so he is really third generation in the laundry business that we were involved in. My son, Eric was non academia minded and he struggled to get through high school and he ̶ completely different personality and thank god he is still alive today, he is healthy and strong but he does not have the work ethics and the passion for work, as his brother has. 10:19 GS: How important was it for you that your children have a sense of Armenian identity growing up and if it was important how did you give that to them? 10:30 AK: Would you repeat that. 10:32 GS: Well let us start with the first question, was it important for you that your children maintain a sense of Armenian Identity? 10:41 AK: Yes but I do not think I did a very good job, I did a better job on my younger son that oldest son on that actually. Because he married an Armenian girl, who was born in Soviet Armenia and moved to Los Angeles when she was eighteen and he met her recently, he has only been married two years. She is 100 percent Armenian-American and she speaks both languages fluently. So, I did not think he would get back into the Armenian community but through his marriage with this girl, he did. 11:30 GS: In what way was he estranged from the Armenian community? 11:36 AK: It just, going away to school and college, he was not estranged but was not a priority for him. 11:48 GS: What was the Armenian community for your children, growing up? 11:52 AK: For this community, it got less and less, most of the people, all the families I remember, that I grew up with, over half of them moved to California over a period of twenty-thirty years. I would say in the (19)40s. I bet we lost thirty-forty families to California and during and after World War II and then there were these intermarriages with the American community, we did not have a strong enough, or enough people to hold the Armenian community together here. And it is very small, relatively weak right now. 12:57 GS: Did your children attend Armenian Church growing up? 13:03 AK: Yeah but not as much as I did when I was growing up, again they had this, we did not have a full time priest and they weren’t interested in the Sunday school courses. My wife and I would take them like once a month to the Armenian Church. 13:22 GS: And was that about the extent to which they would socialize with predominantly Armenian children, elsewise it was just was whoever their friends were. 13:30 AK: Yeah but we there rather interrelations with Armenians were more with the extended family like my wife had an extended Armenian family in the Queens and Troy area in New York City. So, on holidays we would go see them or they would come see us. And then, it was to relatives on weekend visits. Aside from that, I would say 90 percent of life was among the American community. 14:18 GS: What were ways in which you tried to pass down Armenian traditions to them, outside of church and the Armenian language? 14:31 AK: Well, I am guilty to say I was not very aggressive because as I grew up I realized I was moving away from the Armenian community, I just saw it was inevitable and I never discouraged them, I always told them about their roots and they loved to hear stories from their grandfather and their grandmother about how they grew up in the old country. But, if it was a family meeting or involving relatives they were always curious and liked to listen about Armenian history. Besides that, they were surrounded by kids maybe 90 – 95 percent of the time with all Americans, even though they were from different ethnic backgrounds. 15:32 GS: Understandable, okay, just a few more questions, firstly, what are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora, do you think it is an accident of history or do you thinks it a good and naturally occurring product and do see it as something as more of a temporary apparition or do you see it as something that is more here to stay? 15:52 AK: Please say that again, I am a little hard of hearing. 15:55 GS: I apologize, what are your views on the Armenian Diaspora, do you see it as a good thing ̶ 16:00 AK: When you say Diaspora? 16:03 GS: The population outside of the homeland, the Armenian population that does not live in Armenia. Do you think that is a good and natural process of immigration or do you think that is an accident in history because of the genocide? 16:18 AK: No, I think it is a really good both; they got them to move, the genocide unfortunately got them move out of the home and they were very adaptable and as you know better than I do probably they came to North America, South America, Europe of course and there were intermarriages, it was a melting, America’s the biggest melting pot as you know. 16:47 GS: Do you think Armenian organizations today, do a good job of keeping the Armenian Americans in the fold of the community or do you think they focus more on the recently immigrated, naturally born Armenians? 17:03 AK: Well, my only contact was going to the bigger cities and the Armenian weekly or bimonthly paper comes out in Boston and half of it relates to what’s going on in Armenian and Yerevan and the other half was what’s going on socially in the North East and I think it is kind of interesting, it keeps me in touch with both sides. So, I think its fifty fifty on their focus on American Armenians as well as the Armenians who are still living in Yerevan and all over Europe. 17:54 GS: Okay, how would you identify yourself? 17:58 AK: How do I identify ̶ I am Armenian and American, proud of my heritage but also very proud to be an American. So, I think I have the best of both worlds. 18:09 GS: So you would call yourself an Armenian American? 18:12 AK: Yes. 18:14 GS: Okay, one more question, what are your views on gender roles in society today? 18:20 AK: On gender roles? 18:24 GS: Gender roles like the idea of the place that women and men take either in the work place or in the home or in marriage, etcetera? 18:35 AK: What is my idea on ̶ 18:37 GS: What is your opinion on the way, what do you think about gender roles in today in ways in which? 18:41 AK: How I pursue them or what I think they should be? 18:45 GS: All of the above. 18:49 AK: Okay, well obviously females have become a very prominent, become very prominent more so I perceive in the United States than they have in the European and other countries and they play a more prominent role every day. They have become presidents, CEO’s of large companies and a lot of moms that used to stay home now have a first job or second job out of necessity and the most ̶ play a big role so they can get away, either out of necessity or out of personal drive, be their own person and be independent. They’ve become much more independent, when I was born in 1933, I had seen that women taking a much more important role in everyone’s life, all through this country. 18:52 GS: Do you think that coming, that the immigration caused by the genocide led to a major shift in gender roles within the Armenian community or do you think that whatever shifts have been occurring there have just been a part of natural process in a more generalized sense? 20:22 AK: Again, a little bit of each, when they came, I think to the genocide, my parents did not have children, the women had to work, most of them came here with very little capital, or funds or money so a lot of them went to work until they had children from my perception and then after children grew up, a lot them went back to work. So I would say the genocide was responsible for them coming over, most of them, not in poverty but on the low income level and depending on the women’s personality and drive that some of them wanted to stay, to prove they were independent and out of necessity or just they wanted to go to college, and be their own person and they did. So it is a little of both. 21:39 GS: Okay, wonderful. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. 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Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 6/11/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Armine Aksay Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 42:15 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armine was born in Istanbul, Turkey along with her one brother, Arman. During her time in Istanbul, she attended an Armenian high school and sang in her church choir. in 1990, she moved to Salt Lake City, Ohio and got married. She then moved to New Jersey while she worked in NYC. Her and her husband eventually settled down in Binghamton a decade later and had a daughter, Christie. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armine was born in Istanbul, Turkey along with her one brother, Arman. During her time in Istanbul, she attended an Armenian high school and sang in her church choir. in 1990, she moved to Salt Lake City, Ohio and got married. She then moved to New Jersey while she worked in NYC. She and her husband eventually settled down in Binghamton a decade later and had a daughter, Christie. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Istanbul; Armenian genocide; religion; Sebastia; Turkey; World War; Ottoman Empire; traditions; culture"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Istanbul; Armenian genocide; religion; Sebastia; Turkey; World War; Ottoman Empire; traditions; culture Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Armine Aksay Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 11 June 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:03 JK: Okay this is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s Special Collection Library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is June 11, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:15 AA: Armine Aksay. 0:17 JK: And where were you born? 0:18 AA: In Istanbul, Turkey. 0:20 JK: And who are your parents? 0:22 AA: Uh, my father’s name is Harutyun Gümüşyan and my mother’s is Filor Gülep. 0:30 JK: And where are they from? 0:32 AA: Uh, they are from, uh, my father was born in Istanbul, and my mother, uh, oh no–eh, they–no they were–my father was born in Yozgat and my mother was born in Sivas–Sebastia was the old name, yeah. 0:48 JK: And, uh, were they Armenian? Both Armenian. 0:51 AA: Both Armenian. 0:53 JK: And did they live in, uh, Istanbul in, uh, for the majority of their time before coming to the United States, or? 1:05 AA: Um, my mother lived in Istanbul until, uh, 1994 and my father passed away in Istanbul, uh, in 90– I believe 1993. Um, so they were in there until that time. 1:21 JK: And, um being from– being Armenian and living in Istanbul, what was that like? 1:34 AA: Um, being Armenian in Istanbul, uh, is like um, the same like whoever, you know, is living in there but except we were Christians and, uh, the rest of the, uh, people were Muslims and, um, well I went to Armenian school, uh, in Istanbul. I was graduated from Armenian, uh, high school so we have churches, uh, schools, and, um, a lot of community activities still in Istanbul. Yeah. 2:04 JK: And, um, during– did they– did your family ever have any, um, stories about the Armenian genocide, or did they experience coming from Armenia or going to Istanbul or? 2:19 AA: Okay my grandparents, uh, had the experience so they had to move, uh, after the genocide, 1915 Armenian genocide, they have to they had to move from um different cities uh to Istanbul, uh. My grandmother from she was not from Sebastia but she was from Erzincan, Erzincan. And she moved to Sebastia after the genocide with her two-year-old daughter, um, because they– she had a husband and, um, parents and relatives and they all perished and she was the only one from her family. And, uh, she, she, she was– she escaped basically from Erzincan to Sebastia there he found, they found each other with my grandfather and my grandfather in Sebastia his name was Abraham Mosikyan. Um, he had a wife and a son so he was in military service at that time during the genocide and when he came back he could not find his wife and son and, um, after years–oh I do not know how many years, he found his son only in Lebanon. Uh, somehow he–the, um, you know, I guess he was exiled to the desert and then after that, um, they, he survived and he wa– he lived in Lebanon and he was married at that time and when my grandfather found him and, um, so my grandma and my grandfather got married, uh, in Sebastia and after that they had, um, eight more children, um, and when their children grew up, uh they came to, um, Istanbul. My grandma came to Istanbul. My grandfather had passed away, uh, in Sebastia. And my father’s side also um my grandfather, Ardaşes Gümüşyan was deported to uh Syria– exiled to Syrian Desert. There, and he was engaged to my grandma at that time and uh after four years living in tents, uh, tents he was able to come back and they got married. And later on, I think 1950s he came to Istanbul. Yeah, they moved because they were not comfortable still in, uh, the, you know, the cities that they were living so they moved. 5:09 JK: Wow. So, both your–on you mom’s side, their–her parents and your dad’s side they–genocide. 5:17 AA: They experienced ̶ they had the– yeah genocide. 5:20 JK: –And with that, did they– so they experienced people who did not survive and they–did they have to go through the, um, desert walk? 5:31 AA: Yes. They had, uh, my yeah, my grandfather was–at the Ardaşes Gümüşyan, he, uh, I know that he had some experience of– and they were walking in the desert, uh, but before they reached the desert, they were going to kill them all. But my, uh, another Turkish officer came, um, and then he said just leave them, leave them alone or something like that so that is how he, he got survived and then he was in the desert right after that but otherwise he was not, uh, he was not going to be, you know, in the desert even–yeah, he was not. 6:16 JK: That’s crazy. So, through each of the like each village that uh people lived in they would come and get them and then– 6:26 AA: Yeah, they were, they were what I was told that they were getting old men over I think twelve years old or something like that and the– taking them somewhere and then, uh, no news. You know, they would, either they got killed or they were exiled or deported or something happened and then the women and children, uh, also they did not know what to do so they had to escape if they had the chance, you know, they find the opportunity to, uh, escape but yeah. That is all I know. Yeah. 7:00 JK: That is crazy. Did– do you know if they were told in advance the villages like from other people that the Ottoman Empire was coming to take them away, or probably not? 7:16 AA: I do not believe so, they, they did not know anything. 7:18 JK: So, they did not know– 7:20 AA: They did not know anything about that just because all of the sudden the soldiers appeared, uh, and then, uh, you know, they did not know what was going on and– eh– so they had to leave. 7:36 JK: And how did your, um, grandfather on your, uh, I believe it was your mom’s side, uh, find his son? 7:48 AA: Oh, he was, uh, well he was looking, uh, everywhere and, um, and then he was– whoever was coming from other villages or cities he was paying them so if they have any news from them. He was giving gold coins or something like that at that time and then, then finally, he found, uh, in Lebanon I do not know how that happened but it was just, uh, yeah and–and he was married and he had a son. His name was Mardiros and he had a son we– which he named his son his father’s name, Abraham. So– and they were very happy to find each other, yeah, after so many years, yeah. 8:36 JK: Wow and um when your grandparents on both sides had to leave their villages to uh be exiled do you remember how old they were or? 8:48 AA: Oh Uh, my, yeah, I think my because they were getting married early at that time I believe my grandmother my mother’s side uh from Erzincan eh she was seventeen because she had a two-two year old daughter already and uh my father’s side uh my grandma was engaged and I think she was in her eight–like eighteen and then when they got married she was twenty-two, something like that. Yeah, yeah. 9:27 JK: That’s interesting. And um so they were exiled and they eventually most of them got–went to Istanbul? 9:36 AA: After the Second World War they were able to come to Istanbul. Yeah not the First World War. They– we were still there, you know, in the town, they came back and but they did not have anything– all their- the properties the house our businesses, everything was gone so they had to you know they had to be on rent or you know they did not have anything when they came back everything was taken. And, uh, um, then they could not move until, until after Second World War they came to Istanbul. Because I guess it was not still safe for them and to be in the village or another city so Istanbul– because in Istanbul there was a lot of other people like the Greeks or you know French, Greek or uh Jewish a lot of other people were living. So, it was more safer and we had also another reason probably we had Armenian schools in there and churches in Istanbul so otherwise I would not be able to speak Armenian you know yeah I would not know. 10:48 JK: Interesting. So, after they were exiled they came back to their villages and then they– 10:53 AA: Their villages and then they moved after. Yeah, yeah. 10:57 JK: Because usually a lot of people that I have interviewed they did not– 11:01 AA: They did not– 11:01 JK: Yeah come back. 11:02 AA: Yeah, they did not come back. They could not probably that is why they did not survive and you know or they, they were in another country so they– it was hard for them to move back. Yeah. 11:13 JK: Of course. And have you ever visited the villages that your grandparents– 11:17 AA: No, I never had the chance to– 11:19 JK: Would you be interested if you did– 11:21 AA: I would, yeah, I would go, oh yeah. Yeah, I have a– from my grandfather I have a, uh deed, I, I still saved and it is in Ottoman handwriting and with the, um, with the stamp I think Ottoman Empire stamp and, uh, I sent to Michigan University. There was a professor in there and then, uh, he, he was able to translate the Ottoman Turkish to English. He was a professor, this was couple years ago and then, uh, I found out that, uh, that two of them– one of them was the, uh, the paper that he did the military service– he completed, and the other one was a deed for a property, for a land and a– and a store in Yozgat, I still have it. And I guess he had it but them after the genocide that deed was not good anymore so he could not you know he could not take it. It was– 12:29 JK: It is crazy that he kept it still. 12:31 AA: [laughs] Yeah. 12:33 JK: So, um, when they had to be exiled from the villages, they– did they have like stuff that they could bring or not– 12:41 AA: They could not– no– they could not take anything. Yeah, yeah. 12:45 JK: So, they had– 12:45 AA: They had to leave everything. Yeah, yeah. Because government did not let them to take anything, yeah. Yeah. 12:53 JK: And did your grandparents speak both Armenian and Turkey? Because– 12:58 AA: Armenian and Turkish, yes. Yeah. Because we had Armenian schools in there before, you know, before the genocide, yeah. 13:07 JK: And, uh, when, uh, your parents lived in Istanbul, did they speak Armenian? Both of them speak Armenian and Turkish? 13:16 AA: Yes, both, yeah. 13:18 JK: And, which one was more preferred in your household? Like let us say you are at home or, uh, with you and your family would you guys speak Turkish or Armenian? 13:29 AA: Well, I– because I went to the– I went to Armenian school I sp– I spoke Armenian and my mother always, uh, she was speaking Armenian to us and, uh, and my grandma– grandmothers also. Yeah but both– we were– because we lived in Turkey and in home sometimes we speak Turkish, too. Yeah, yeah. 13:53 JK: So– and you guys went to an Armenian Church in Istanbul growing up? 13:58 AA: Yes, yeah. I grew up– yeah, I was in the church and I was in the school, yeah. 14:05 JK: That is nice. And did you have any siblings growing up? Um, in your household. 14:11 AA: I have a brother, yeah. 14:13 JK: And what’s his name? 14:15 AA: Arman. 14:15 JK: Arman. And he went to Armenian school? 14:18 AA: Yes, he went to Armenian school also. 14:21 JK: And, um, uh, growing up in Istanbul, and you had Armenian friends because you went to Armenian school. 14:29 AA: Armenian school, yeah. And I, I had Ar– Turkish friends also from– yeah from the neighborhood or you know wherever we were. 14:37 JK: But they did not go to Armenian School, right? 14:38 AA: No, no, no. Yeah. 14:41 JK: So, it was both. And they– that is nice. 14:43 AA: Yeah, in, in Armenian school, we had also Turkish classes like, uh, history and Turkish language classes and, you know, you were learning both. Both languages, yeah, yeah that was like. 14:56 JK: Oh, that is nice, yeah. So, a mixture. 14:58 AA: Yeah. 14:59 JK: And, um, did– were there any traditions that your, uh, family maintained in the household in Istanbul that resembled Armenian culture? 15:08 AA: Uh, Armenian, Armenian culture, we like New Years’, um, Eve, New, New Years’ Day, uh, we were making Noah’s pudding. My mother always made that– uh, that is the tradition. Uh, because it– we make a lot of different things, raisins and apricots and stuff like that so that, that was a tradition. And we were always going to Church, uh, holidays like Easter, Christmas, and, um, the Virgin Mary’s Assumption in August. Uh, like major holidays, uh, first to the church and then after that we– my father was taking us to, uh, relatives but whoever is older first and then visiting them. And, um, well we were getting Easter we– they were giving us what– we had the dinner and then they were giving us colored eggs, you know candies or cakes. Chocolate, something like that and that is, that is a tradition. After the church we always go to, uh, relatives’ homes and, you know, yeah. 16:18 JK: That is nice. 16:19 AA: Yeah. 16:20 JK: And, um, did you celebrate– I am assuming Armenian Christmas–? 16:24 AA: Armenian Christmas on January 6th and, uh, the Easter– April. Yeah. 16:34 JK: And, um, when did you come to America and moved here? 16:39 AA: 1990, uh, yeah September of 1990, I moved here. 16:43 JK: And may I ask what was the reason, or– 16:45 AA: I got married. 16:47 JK: Oh, you were– yeah, yeah. 16:48 AA: Yeah. 16:49 JK: And, um, uh, your husband– was he Armenian? 16:52 AA: He was, uh, from Istanbul– same, uh, Armenian, yeah. But he was here earlier, like ten years before, uh, I moved here– he came, yeah. 17:02 JK: And, um, moving from Istanbul, which is heavily Armenian and Turkish, um, traditions and coming to America was it different to see the– see the differences– 17:14 AA: Cultures difference, yes, there is a culture difference. And, uh, here, like in the beginning of course it was difficult to learn the language and, it–and, um, all different cultures in here– mixed cultures and, um, but, uh, well first I came to Utah. Salt Lake City, Utah. Five years I was living in Utah and that was different– we did not– we had Armenians in there. They, uh, they were from Lebanon, uh, after the Lebanon War, I think, I believe 1970s, they moved, uh, here. And then, uh, but like, um, I believe there was like thirteen or fourteen families that was all, in, in Utah. And there was no Armenian Church so there was a Greek Church whenever we had weddings or baptism or Sunday mass, once in a while, we were, we were, uh, in Greek Church. 18:14 JK: And then you came to Binghamton? 18:18 AA: I came– no– I moved– from there I moved to New Jersey and I worked in the city, New York City. Twelve years I lived in there and then, then we moved here, uh, 2008, uh, May 2008 because two years before that I– we bought the, the property, this place. I was thinking maybe this, this will be, uh, retirement place for us. Once in a while we were coming and, you know, staying couple of days and then after that, um, we decided to move. Yeah, and it was good for my daughter’s education because, uh, high school was better in here and also the college, you know, uh, yeah. 19:01 JK: And did you only have one daughter? 19:04 AA: One daughter. 19:05 JK: And what is her name? 19:06 AA: Christie. 19:07 JK: And, uh, does she speak Armenian as well? 19:09 AA: She speaks fluent Armenian and Turkish also. 19:12 JK: Oh, very nice. And, um, so moving to all these, uh different places in America, which one was the most heavily, heavily, uh, Armenian culture, uh– 19:25 AA: Istanbul will be that. 19:27 JK: Oh yeah. 19:28 AA: Yeah, we had all kinds of, uh, Armenian, um, well we had the big Armenian community–fifty thousand Armenians in there and then we had a lot of activities like choirs or schools churches open, uh, thirty-three churches. Uh, not all of them open all the time but, uh, special days we were there– we were in churches that we– there was no community. So, we had– you feel more Armenian when you are in Istanbul. But in here far– we are far from each other we do not, we do not live close by. That is why I do not feel the same, you know, the same thing. 20:14 JK: In, um, Istanbul, did you– was– since there was a lot of mixtures of culture was– did you ever see like, um, differences like people did not like certain cultures or not? Or did you see everyone mixed together well– 20:30 AA: Every– well, I– everyone, uh, was mixed together well and we– all neighbors, you know, our neighborhood we had Greeks, we had Jewish we had Turkish and all kinds of people but we, we did not see any difference. Except, uh, except the, uh, the religion. 20:46 JK: Oh yeah. 20:46 AA: You know, other than that we were like the same, you know? 20:49 JK: Same food– 20:49 AA: Same food, same– everything, the culture same and, you know, uh, yeah, we, we were okay, you know. Except, uh, during the religion but they were, you know, they– once in a while, my father had friends– they were Muslims and then once in a while we went to the Mosque, uh, when they invited us. 21:10 JK: Oh wow. 21:11 AA: But yeah, and then sometimes they were coming to our church, too. 21:14 JK: Oh, that is nice. 21:14 AA: Yeah, for special days, yeah. So, we did not, I did not see any problems when I was living there. 21:22 JK: That is good. And, um, what kind of foods did you experience living in Istanbul, like traditional Armenian food or Turkish, or Greek? 21:31 AA: Oh well I can say Istanbul– because Greeks used Byzantium– it used to Byzantium and Greeks were living in there we had Greek culture and then mostly Greek foods I saw. From my grandmothers, uh also Eastern Turkey, so we had the Armenian food, uh, exposed to Armenian food too so sometimes we were cooking that sometimes the Greek. Um, there’s little differences. We had, uh, I cannot say but we have in, uh, in our culture we have more meat and then the Greek more vegetables. Yeah, so it is just a mix of everything we were cooking, yeah. 22:15 JK: That is really nice. And, um, in New Jersey, uh, in America did– was there a big Armenian culture? 22:23 AA: Yes, there was a lot of churches and a lot of Armenians in there. Um, as well as in the city, New York City. So, um, I had my aunt– I have an aunt in Rego Parks, Queens and another aunt and an uncle in New Jersey. And relatives were there and a lot of Armenians, yeah, living in there, yeah. 22:47 JK: That is nice. And, um, how– what would you consider yourself as, um, a person– how would define it? Like are you Armenian, American or Turkey-Armenian, or, what would you say? 23:00 AA: I think I am– oh, well I feel like I am more like Armenian, uh, because I speak Armenian in home, the food I eat–sometimes I cook American or Italian but, uh, I still have an accent, you know. [laughs] I cannot get rid of that, um, and I do not feel like really, I am an American yet, since I am living here long time like since 1990, twenty-seven years. Um, I feel like I am more like Armenian but we have the Turkish culture also we carry that with us. That is another thing, yeah, so just, uh, quarter, uh, American and quarter I can say Turkish and then half is Armenian. [laughs] 50 percent Armenian, yeah, yeah. 23:54 JK: That is nice- And was it important for your family to, um, teach about the Armenian cultures and traditions as opposed, let us say living here in America and teaching your daughter– raising her– was it important to teach those Armenian traditions rather than American, or– 24:12 AA: When I came here? 24:14 JK: Hmm. 24:15 AA: Yeah, well, uh, yes. If you think about how I was trying to teach, um, my daughter, I remember that I put her, I registered her to Armenian schools so she learns Armenian. Saturday school. Um, so I tried to teach her the language and the songs that I know, you know, so we do not lose, lose our cultures, that is, that is main thing that we have to– yeah, yeah. 24:47 JK: And, um, so you are saying you sent her to Armenian Saturday school? 24:51 AA: Saturday school, yes. 24:53 JK: And so, for normal school she would go to like a normal American– 24:57 AA: Normal American, yeah. I– she was in Catholic school until, uh, middle school, uh, elementary. And then after that she was in public, uh, you know the middle school and the high school. But, uh, she, she, she was speaking Armenian in home when she was little but she did not have any problems learning English when she started to school because, because of the TV probably, she was exposed to– she was watching everything and then yeah, she was, uh, she learned very fast. 25:32 JK: Oh wow, that is funny. 25:32 AA: Yeah. 25:33 JK: And, um, do you still, uh, try to maintain the Armenian tradition now today, since she is old– I am assuming she is much older now and, uh, going to like Armenian church or celebrating Armenian– 25:48 AA: Sometimes she comes, when she is not busy she, she lives, uh, on her own in a different apartment. Bu, uh, if I ask her, uh, there is an event or something that she wants to help me, or, you know, she will, she will come. And because she was– I sing in the church, uh, because she was always in Sunday school and in church, she remembers the mass– uh, the Armenian mass. So, she can sing with me also she tries to help me and she, she has a lot of Armenian friends also from New Jersey, from school, yeah. 26:25 JK: That is nice. So, growing up in New Jersey, she– even though she went to Catholic school and, uh, then public high school later on, did– were there Armenian students in either of those schools or was it through Saturday school? 26:39 AA: Only Saturday school, yeah, she had Armenian friends. 26:42 JK: So, she had a mixture of American friends– 26:44 AA: American and, uh, yeah and Armenian. 26:47 JK: That is nice and, um, how would you define being Armenian, or what is the most important part of the Armenian identity that you are– 27:00 AA: Hmm. Armenian identity, um, is the language. I think we should speak the Armenian language in home. That is very important– that is how keeps us– and also at the, the church, I believe. You know, um, that is how we, um, we learn all the, uh, things that we we never, uh, learned in, uh, Turkey, in Istanbul, in schools. Some of the things– for example we did not have Armenian history in, in–even I was in Armenian school, Armenian high school; they did not teach us Armenian history. Yeah. So, when I came here, I searched and I found a lot of– we had the Kings and Queens or the, the wars with the Persians or whatever. I, I never knew that, so, yeah. 27:42 JK: And, so, um, going back to Istanbul and take, uh, going to Armenians who are there, did they, they taught everything in Armenian I assume–? 28:01 AA: Everything in Armenian except, uh, Turkish language and, uh, Turkish, uh, history. 28:07 JK: So what kind of– so would you just have like Armenian language classes and then like normal other subjects? 28:15 AA: Oh no, we had– everything was Armenian because we had Armenian teachers so biology, chemistry, math, all Armenian. Um, all, all– the principal was Armenian and everything except couple of, uh, classes that we had Turkish–that has to be Turkish. 28:33 JK: And would that be taught by the Turkish people? 28:35 AA: Turkish, yes. Yes, Turkish. 28:40 JK: Interesting, and um do you think the Armenian community here in, uh, Binghamton is going, uh, keep, uh, the Armenian identity strong or do you think we are losing our– 28:54 AA: I do not think we’re losing but the, the problem is young generation, uh, find– they find jobs in elsewhere in different cities so they move. But then new people are moving here, uh, and then we have young– with their young kids and, uh, like that is so– I think once in a while we are losing little bit the community and then after that, uh, we still have. But I think we should continue the church has to continue, first of all, and the language classes we have to have so we do not forget, you know. Our culture has to continue–yeah, grow, yeah. 29:42 JK: And, um, and, um, let us see. So, going back to the Armenian, um, community here in Binghamton, do you think it would be, um, nice to have a Sunday school because I know we do not have one or like a Armenian language school? 30:00 AA: We should have the Armenian language and Sunday school also, yeah, we need that, yeah. 30:06 JK: To help them– to help keep our, um, identity. 30:09 AA: Yes. 30:10 JK: And, um, would you ever– have you ever went, uh, been back to Istanbul? 30:17 AA: Once, uh, after I came here in 1997, I was able to stay there for two weeks because I was working in here so I could not stay longer. And after that I did not– I could not. 30:32 JK: Do you want to go back if you can? 30:34 AA: I would like– yeah, if I had the chance I would like to go but I– the reason is I have to work always and then I do not have a long period of, you know, vacation time, that’s the– that’s the reason. 30:48 JK: And, going back to, um, growing up in Istanbul when you were younger, did you– what were your parents’ roles in the household? Like– 30:59 AA: My mother was home– she was a homemaker but she was a tailor also–a woman’s tailor. So sometimes she was making dresses or suits for other ladies but she was always home cooking for us and, you know, I was helping her clean. And my father was working all the time and then providing everything– all the school expenses that we had or, uh, the, you know, all other expenses he was, uh, yeah, he was working. 31:30 JK: And, um, what were the circumstances, um, so the main circumstances that, um, made your ancestors or your, uh, grandparents leave, um, the villages was the genocide– 31:46 AA: Yes, main reason was the genocide because they were not comfortable in there. Oh, one thing I, I just remembered–my father–my grandfather, uh, um, changed my father’s first name to a Turkish name just because they were, um, he was in school and the other kids were bothering him. And he– they– sometimes they were, you know, throwing stones and stuff like that, uh, because he is Armenian and he, he changed– his name was Harutyun, my father’s name, and then he had to change it to Atik ,which Atik is a Turkish name so they do not bother him anymore. And then, before that also, after the genocide, there was a–the government ordered, uh, to change the last names because we have last names ends with I-A-N so the–our last name was Gümüşyan and he changed it to Gümüşok. Uh, that– so it is close to Turkish– the ending is not I-A-N. So, they were comfortable. But until that time, after second World War, I guess still they were not, you know, they were bothered in there, they had to move to Istanbul to change the place, so, yeah. That is, that is the– 33:14 JK: The government had made people– 33:17 AA: Made all Armenians change their last name. 33:21 JK: Wow. 33:21 AA: Yeah. So, whatever they remembered, uh, any, any kind of last name Turkish, they changed it and, yeah, so, um, so no one knows that they are, you know, they are Armenian. But we were still going to the church or, um, continue the culture and everything but– outside, you know, they were not speaking Armenian when they were out, out of home. Yeah, so, that is the– 33:49 JK: Did they have Armenian churches during that time? 33:52 AA: No, they– during that time all the churches, uh, they were, uh, closed. They made, um, storage– the government made the, the churches storage or they, they were keeping animals or something like that. All, all– that, uh, wherever the genocide happened. And after the genocide, um, also they could not open the churches we do not have any churches in the eastern part of Turkey which we were. Uh, but only in Istanbul so the– because the– in Istanbul we had some Armenians also before the genocide so they– we had to– also they took some of the schools from Greeks and, uh, because same thing happened to Greek, Greeks. Uh, in one day they had to leave the country– government ordered them to leave the country, um, in one day– without taking anything. So, they went to Greece at that time, I do not remember when was the, uh, date but after Armenian genocide I believe. And, so they left their schools and churches so we took over, uh, we– in Istanbul– that is the reason we had– 35:01 JK: –to go. 35:01 AA: Yeah, we had to go to their church and that was an Armenian Church later on. 35:08 JK: So, um, the government really had an influential part like the villages and 35:13 AA: Yes, in the–everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah. 35:16 JK: It is crazy. 35:17 AA: Yeah. 35:19 JK: Um, when– before the Armenian genocide, um, so your grandparents who were living in the villages at the time, what, what were their occupations? Do you remember? Or– 35:31 AA: Oh I– my, um, my mother– I remember my mother's father's– I mean, that side of grandfather, uh, he was, um, making, uh, he was working with metal, making the shoe ho– the nails for shoe horses and that kind of things. Metal worker– and I do not remember my other, he did not tell me what was the ̶ what was his occupation, you know. 36:03 JK: And were there Armenians in Turkish and other, um, people living in the village or was it mostly Armenians living in the villages where your grandparents grew up before the Armenian genocide? 36:16 AA: Oh, mostly Armenians. Yeah. Sebastia is– Sebastia was full of Armenians, maybe few Turkish people– they were coming from other religions. And also, Yozgat also is like, Erzincan, Erzincan also a lot of Armenians were living in there. Yeah, they had a lot of schools. Yeah. 36:38 JK: So, everything was mostly Armenian based? 36:40 AA: Armenian based, yeah, but there was also Turkish and Kurdish also were living mixed, but mostly Armenians. Yeah. Yeah. 36:52 JK: And would– is there anything else you would like to add? 36:55 AA: Oh! [laughs] 36:57 JK: That you can remember or stories or anything? 37:01 AA: I, I do not know if I, well I, I may remember later on. [laughs] 37:07 JK: Maybe about the genocide or– go ahead, yeah. 37:12 AA: Oh, um, in, uh, what happened was in Istanbul I remember some of the things were going on and, uh, sometimes they were not in, um, the churches for example we want to make a repair or, uh, needs to paint or something, they were not letting us. We had to get the permission from the government, but sometimes for the– for that kind of things was hard to get the permission. And, uh, you know, and, uh, other than that. In– from my grandfather's, I do not know, they did not tell us a lot of things, you know, after the genocide, they were afraid to talk about so they were thinking probably we will go and tell everybody in there so they keep, kept everything, uh, yeah, uh, for themselves. But in Istanbul, I experienced couple of things like they were in schools, school also they sometimes they were telling us if we have less than some students, student population in, in each school they would close the school or something like that. Yeah if it is less than I think two thousand students or something at the time this was in 1980s. We had–sometimes we had pressure from the government. I do not know how is the situation right now. I do not remember anything but, uh, yeah, that is like– 38:50 JK: So, there was still– 38:52 AA: Still uh– 38:53 JK: Something like pressure from the government but not the normal people living in the area. 39:00 AA: No, no. Just, yeah. People were okay with that they never, you know– all the neighborhood was good and but the government still, until now, maybe, they may– they may have, you know, uh, the control. What– once they had told we had passports and the ID, ID cards so we all Armenians had to be thirty-one– the first page of the– of the either pass– passport if you want to have or the ID. Uh and other people did not, they had other numbers, so they were probably controlling all the Armenians whoever left in there with that numbers. This is– they that is the thing that, yeah, the way that you know– they know that you are label, label everybody. Yeah, this, this is a Christian or this, you know. Thirty-one maybe it is a 301(AD) because we accepted the Christianity in years 301(AD). That is the reason maybe they put the thirty-one on the IDs. Um, and then the– when there was a military coupe, uh, in 1980, military took over, because there was a lot of fights in the universities, there was leftist rightist or radical beliefs. And, uh, and at that time, uh, well, a lot of students were in, were put in prison. 40:35 JK: Armenian students? 40:36 AA: Armenian, as well as Turkish. Kurdish, Turkish, everybody, so even if they did not do anything, you know, they did not know who was responsible of that. And, and we had hard times at that time, you know, yeah. Yeah. And yeah. 40:52 JK: Do– how do you because I know, um, the Turkish government still has not– denies about the Armenian genocide. Even America does not recognize it as a genocide. 41:04 AA: Yeah, it was a genocide because when– it– because I believe when, when you, um, when you are, um, getting, like, collecting older men from their homes, uh, that is a, that is a genocide because you take everybody out from their homes and then you just deport them. All of them, all Armenians this is towards all, you know, to one race and that is a genocide. I do not know why they do not accept until now. That is tha–that is crazy. I do not know why. They should because if you, if they do not accept it will continue. I believe it that another genocide will come and then tha– that is going to be terrible to other people, you know? Yeah. So that is what–[laughs] That is what my opinion is. 42:01 JK: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well thank you so much. 42:05 AA: You are welcome. You are welcome Jackie. 42:09 JK: Great. Awesome. I hope you get all the– 42:16 (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Armine Aksay https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f3c1fc1bf95586c87eadc2f93260355b.jpeg 8355fbe7cdc29eedcd8adea8253e7db5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65cab0287f5c25e568fc59c394260bf6.mp3 761626db27c60c2f59834c60f5947ddb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 6/23/2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Gregory Smaldone Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed GraceBaradet 1 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 35:00 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text After graduating from Lowell Business School, Grace became a secretary and went to work in Washington for the state department. Afterwards, she worked as the the Ministry of Aid. Grace was a daughter of Armenian immigrants who came to the United States from Greece and Turkey in the early 1910's. Grace has three sons. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Georgetown boys; Greece; Armenian Genocide; Beirut; Church; cultural identity; Sunday school"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Georgetown Boys Orphanage; Greece; Armenian Genocide; Beirut; Church; cultural identity; Sunday school Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Grace Baradet Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 15 April 2016 Interview Setting: Endwell, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project with Binghamton University’s Special Collection’s Library. Would please state your name for the record? 0:09 GB: Grace Sarkisian Baradet. 0:11 GS: And where were you born? 0:13 GB: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 0:15 GS: What year? 0:16 GB: [laughs] 1928. 0:20 GS: Okay, um, let us start with your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about them? 0:22 GB: Yes. They were Garabed and Annagils Sarkisian, Annagil Konjoyan Sarkisian. My father a Garabed was born in Harput in a little village called Çarşamba. And he came to this country in 1912. He left behind his wife and his son that was one years old. And I presume he came here either to work and send for them or make money and go back. But then the genocide occurred. And he lost his son. He could not find him. And it took many many years and he finally through people that he knew discovered that his son was in a Greek orphanage on the Island of Corfu and ready to be sent to Canada. And I presume it was when the Georgetown Boys, have you heard of that project? 1:24 GS: Please. 1:25 GB: That was–they were sending boys there to work on farms. So, my brother, actually half-brother, was not happy about that. He wanted to go to Canada. So my father found him and arranged for him to come to this country. And I cannot remember what year it was. I can probably look it up. So they were living in Binghamton. And someone here Mrs. Bogdasarian, Alice Bogdasarian’s mother-in-law knew my mother from the orphanage and said I have a woman that I think would be appropriate for you. His wife, my father’s first wife died during the genocide. And so they wrote, sent pictures, decided it would work out and then my father arranged my mother to go, by that time she was in France, in Marcy, to go from Marcy to Cuba. And they got married in Cuba ̶ 2:31 GS: Wow. 2:32 GB: And came back to Binghamton. 2:33 GS: Okay, and what date did they get married in? 2:35 GB: They got married in 1927, May. 2:38 GS: Okay, and they settled down in Binghamton. 2:40 GB: Yes. 2:41 GS: Now I am assuming that both of your parents spoke Armenian? 2:44 GB: They did. 2:45 GS: Okay, so let us move on a little bit to your childhood. Did you have any brothers or sisters growing up? 2:49 GB: I had my older half-brother. He was like seventeen years older and a younger brother, he was five years younger. 2:58 GS: Okay, did you and your brothers grew up speaking Armenian in the household? 3:02 GB: Yes. 3:03 GS: Okay, was it because your parents taught it to you, like spoke to you in Armenian? 3:08 GB: Yes. They spoke to us in Armenian. Turkish, when they did not want us to know what they were talking about. [laughs] 3:36 GS: Did they speak in, how good were your parents at speaking English? 3:21 GB: I think they were fairly good. They read and spoke English and wrote. And when I was away, my mother would write to me in English, because I never learnt to read and write Armenian. 3:36 GS: Did they speak English to you when you were very little as well as Armenian or was it almost entirely Armenian? 3:41 GB: They, I think my half-brother spoke to me in English because when I started school I could speak both languages. 3:50 GS: Okay, so you had both in the household. 3:53 GB: Uh-huh. 3:53 GS: What would you say you and your brother conversed in primarily? 3:55 GB: English. 3:56 GS: English primarily? Would you switch to Armenian when you did not want other people know what you were talking about? 4:01 GB: Not necessarily. But when my parents would be talking to me in the Armenian I would reply back in Armenian. 4:07 GS: Okay, did you and your brothers attend church regularly? Did you attend an Armenian language school? Did you attend the Sunday school? 4:17 GB: We did not have a priest here. We would have visiting priest maybe few times a year. So we would go. And as far as Armenian school, we did not have Sunday school. An Armenian school, I think Mr. Bogdasarian started Armenian school. And I tried. My brothers, Oh, my older brother spoke Armenian and read and wrote in Armenian. So he knew that. My younger brother did not. He had a disability. 4:48 GS: Um, Okay, so the church only had official service a few times a year you said. Where there any other functions that would occur in the church more frequently? 5:01 GB: Well, they had dinners but mostly during the summer all the Armenian families would gather and go to a farm in Port Crane. 5:11 GS: Can you tell me a little about that? 5:12 GB: Oh, my goodness, every Sunday we would have to get up early to go there because there were not that many picnic tables available. My father always wanted a picnic table. So, it was very rustic, it was as the cows were walking around and it was just a farm. And I think we paid maybe fifty cents to go into the owners. And most of the Armenians went every Sunday and there were not that many cars in the thirties. So the few people that had cars would go ferry them back and forth in the morning and then ferry them back and forth at night. And Mr. Bagdasarian was one he had a truck. And he would put packing boxes in the back so can you imagine how unsafe it was. We would sit down on these packing boxes with the food in the middle and he would take everybody. And then come back take the rest. Then at the end of the day as I said we, he do the reverse until my brother, older brother got a car. A Model A and then he would do the same thing. Helping people, and they stop on the way to get ice from the ice company. 6:28 GS: So this would be like a frequent Sunday event over the summer. 6:32 GB: Yes. 6:33 GS: And how many families usually were participating? 6:35 GB: Oh, I would say at least ten, at least ten if not more. 6:42 GS: How large the portion of the community was that? 6:47 GB: I really do not know, maybe about half. There were a lot of kids. There were few families that they would camp there during the week. Put up a tent. 6:59 GS: What kind of food would you bring with you to the picnic? 7:02 GB: Oh, yes. Kebab, Pilaf, watermelon, desserts, vegetables whatever. 7:11 GS: When you said that there were sometimes dinners at the church. When would these be and for what purpose? 7:19 GB: Usually they would be after we would have church service, after Badarak and they would have a dinner. They would be just as a gathering for everyone. 7:31 GS: And who would usually prepare the meals? 7:34 GB: The women. Women’s Guild of the Church. The men would do the meat. 7:42 GS: Okay. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about your parents? What were there professions? What was the highest level of education they achieved in the US? 7:52 GB: Well, my father came from a rural community in Turkey. And he worked in a shoe factory when he came here. So his level of education I really do not know. My mother was born also in Harput. But she came from the city. And she did have some education and she was sort of a teacher in the orphanage. She was a young girl and her parents put her in the Danish Orphanage to protect her. Her sisters were married and she was the young girl so they thought they would do that. And I think she went home on weekends. But she was mostly in this Danish Orphanage. 8:41 GS: Did she ever talk to you about her experience there? 8:44 GB: She really loved it. And Mrs. Peterson was the head of the orphanage and she really liked Mrs. Peterson. And then she had something else that was very interesting that I do not know you may have heard you may have not heard before but her nephew was a little boy. And they wanted to keep him safe. So they brought him to this orphanage, his parents, and asked Mrs. Peterson if she would take him in. And she said no, it is a girl’s orphanage I cannot take a boy. And my mother pleaded she said please let me watch him I will make sure he does not bother anybody. So she relented and my mother had her nephew Harutun, I do not know for how long. [Phone ringing] excuse me. [Recording paused] 9:37 GS: Resuming Grace Baradet’s interview. 9:40 GB: All right, my mother, so she took her nephew, Harutun, who was a Konjoyan. And she took care of him and then the older sister who had been married and widowed, her sister Sara worked for the German Orphanage and she took him and kept him for a while. And then the oldest sister Yasah who had been married and widowed and took him. And somehow they all went to Beirut. And her older sister was able to sell her house for I do not know for eight gold coins. So they lived on some of that gold in Beirut until the sister, the oldest one found out about the Nansen passport. Have you heard of that one? No. 10:31 GS: Please! 10:32 GB: I have a copy of it. This Nansen passport was founded by Friedrich Nansen [Fridtjof Wedel-Jarlsberg Nansen] and he was Swedish, philanthropist [Norwegian explorer, scientist, diplomat, humanitarian and Nobel Peace Prize laureate] and I do not know it all, and he–this was for immigrants to go wherever they want. So she found out about this, her sister Yasah. And she took this nephew, her daughter and some older woman on this Nansen Passport to France. I have a gold coin that they lived on as a memento and I have a copy of the Nansen Passport. 11:14 GS: We would love to take a look at that. 11:16 GB: Yeah, it is interesting because I did not know about it until I went to France and met my cousin. 11:25 GS: We are looking at the Nansen passport right. Now Certificate– So, moving back to your childhood, would you say that you socialized with mainly Armenian children, non-Armenian children, some combination of both? 11:45 GB: Combination of both. 11:47 GS: Would you say that they were separate spheres like you and your Armenian friends and your non-Armenian friends? 11:52 GB: Yes. 11:53 GS: How did that come about? Who were your Armenian friends? 11:57 GB: Well, my Armenian friends were–we lived in neighborhoods and on the west side there was a whole group of Armenians. And we sort of associated with them and some were young people, my age. And then, my American friends of course were from school and neighborhood. 12:19 GS: Okay. Um, what was it like being an Armenian in school? Was it an identity that you bore proudly or was it something people aware about; was it more of an exotic identity that people did not understand? 12:34 GB: I do not recall all that they really question that. I think that I do not remember anybody questioning it or saying that, you know, what are you. I think we accepted that. 12:50 GS: When you were growing up in what ways did your parents try and maintain a sense of Armenian identity for you and your brothers? 12:58 GB: Well, we spoke Armenian in the house. And then of course when there was church we would go to church. Other than that, Oh, and the neighborhoods; you know the Armenian people in the neighborhood would visit back and forth. They were like family. So, other than that, there really was not another way. 13:17 AD: How about food? 13:18 GB: Pardon? 13:18 AD: Food? 13:19 GB: Food, Oh, definitely food. Yes. And of course my parents would get, for my father would get a newspaper printed in Armenian. And if there was any news–I was young, you know I really did not understand or did not really care and if there was some news he would get it that way. If it was interesting to me they would pass it on. 13:43 GS: So you said you only had church service a few time a year. If there was going to be a church service, how likely was it that you and your family would go? 13:53 GB: Very likely. We would go. 13:55 GS: What kinds of conditions would it take for you guys to have missed one of those church services? 14:01 GB: Probably illness. 14:03 GS: Illness, so when it happened it was important to go, was that the case for most of the community as well? 14:08 GB: I think so. It was also a chance to get together and socialize after church. 14:14 GS: So, the church was as much as a social space as it was a religious one for the community early on? 14:20 GB: Yes. 14:21 GS: Would you guys have any events at the church outside of the context of a priest coming to perform the Badarak? 14:28 GB: Oh, programs. Contest, I do not really do not know how to describe it. 14:34 GS: What kind of programs? 14:35 GB: Well I think the children were taught to get up and recite poems or stories. In, uh, Christmas time, there would be Santa would come and bring something for the children. 14:48 GS: And this would always happen in the church? 14:51 GB: Yes. 14:51 GS: And it was always for the Armenian community that these events where happening 14:55 GB: Right. 14:55 GS: Okay, moving on a little bit to your adult life, did you attend a university or–? 15:02 GB: I went to business school. 15:04 GS: Where at? 15:05 GB: In Binghamton, it is called the Lowell business school. 15:08 GS: Okay, and what has been your main profession on the course of your career? 15:12 GB: Well, I was a secretary. I went to work in Washington for the state department. And then when I left I was the Ministry of Aid. 15:22 GS: Where at? 15:25 GB: US State Department. 15:27 GS: Did you marry? 15:28 GB: Yes. 15:28 GS: Who is your husband? 15:30 GB: My husband was Richard Baradet. I met him in Washington. He was in the service. He was a marine. And we continued to live in Washington, or, actually in Tacoma Park, Maryland. He went back to college to the University of Maryland. 15:45 GS: Now, was your husband Armenian? 15:47 GB: No, he was French-Irish. 15:49 GS: French-Irish. Was it important to your parents that you marry someone Armenian? 15:55 GB: You know they never expressed that and they loved Richard. He had lost his father when he was three and his mother when he was seventeen. So, they became his parents and he really was wonderful to them. And they really loved him. 16:12 GS: Did– would you say that you, growing up, had a desire to marry someone Armenian? Was it something that was important to you? 16:20 GB: No. 16:21 GS: Do you know if that was a popular anxiety among people in the community? Were there other parents who pressured their children, were there children who said they only wanted to marry Armenian? 16:30 GB: Yes. I think most of the Armenian parents wanted their children to marry an Armenian. 16:36 GS: Why do you think that was? 16:38 GB: To carry on their identity, to carry on their heritage. 16:42 GS: And you think that for them was important? 16:44 GB: That was very important. 16:45 GS: Okay. Did you and your husband have children? 16:49 GB: We have three sons. 16:51 GS: Can you name them please? 16:52 GB: Yes, the oldest one is Kevin, and the next one is Timothy and then our youngest was Brian. 16:59 GS: And how old are they now? 17:01 GB: Oh my Gosh. Kevin is fifty. He will be fifty seven in this year. Timothy is fifty-five and Brian passed away when he was forty four. 17:16 GS: I am so sorry. Did you raise your children to speak Armenian? 17:25 GB: I did not but my mother lived with us and she talked to them in Armenian. Now they understood and they can say some words but they really did not speak. However, they were brought up Catholic but they went to Armenian Church as well. 17:42 GS: Okay, for starters where did you and your husband raise your children? 17:45 GB: We lived in Binghamton, New York. 17:47 GS: Okay, so what, why did you and your husband decided to raise your children Catholic as opposed to Armenian Orthodox? 17:56 GB: When we got married in 1954, I had to get married in the Catholic Church because that was a requirement. 17:05 GS: A requirement by whom? 17:07 GB: A requirement by the Catholic Church that we bring up our children catholic. 18:10 GS: Otherwise his priest would not have sanctified the marriage? 18:15 GB: Correct. 18:15 GS: How did that make you feel? 18:19 GB: I thought it was Okay. It did not bother me. 18:23 GS: It was not important to you that your children be raised Armenian Orthodox? 18:31 GB: No, I do not think I gave it a thought to be honest with you, because in the end, they went to both Churches. We only had church maybe once a month or not even that, and they would go to the Catholic Church in the morning and then go to the Armenian Church. They were part of Armenian Youth Group that Maryanne Rejebian and I started. 18:54 GS: Can you tell me about that? What was this youth group? 18:56 GB: We started this in the eighties and we thought the Armenian children of our children’s age should be together and experience that part of it. So we decided to start this youth group. We did not have a priest at the time. But we had the youth group and we had maybe about eighteen children. And we would get together and go on outings. We would have maybe play, go ice skating, and go to the Arena to watch hockey game or we would have bowling and just get together and I think once a year we would have a, I cannot even remember what we would call it–a sort of retreat. 19:54 GS: Okay. And where would the retreat go? 19:56 GB: Well, the one retreat we had was at a lake, Oh My Gosh I have forgotten now where. It was a lovely place and it was over the weekend. And by that time, we did have a priest. 20:11 GS: What was your primary motivation in starting this youth group? 20:16 GB: It was to keep the children together, to keep their Armenian identity and to get them to know each other better. And to have a childhood like we did raise together. 20:30 GS: Did you try and speak Armenian within this youth group trying to encourage the children to speak it or there was not enough of a consistency, fluency to allow that? 20:40 GB: There was not a fluency to allow that. 20:44 GS: So, it was in that way that you were able to maintain your childrens’ Armenian identity, even though they were raised in the Catholic Church? 20:51 GB: Yes. 20:54 GS: What other ways were you able to teach them about Armenian? 20:58 GB: Well, as I said my mother lived with us and she spoke to them in Armenian and she would cook Armenian food and she would make Corek, the Armenian bread and they would help her. In fact, the neighborhood children who were not Armenian would smell it and come and sit on the back porch, waiting for the bread to come out of the oven. 21:20 GS: Oh my God! 21:20 GB: Yeah. [laughs] It was really cute. 21:23 GS: Well, they know what is up, sure they get the best. So, did your sons marry? 21:33 GB: No. 2:34 GS: No, none of them married? 21:35 GB: No. 21:35 GS: Okay. When they were growing up, did you ever talk to them about, you know, if they were to marry about whether they should marry Armenians when they should raise their children in the Armenian Orthodox Church? 21:47 GB: No, I did not. 21:49 GS: How would you identify yourself? Would you say you are Armenian, Armenian-American, an American-Armenian, an American? 21:56 GB: American-Armenian. 21:57 GS: American-Armenian? Why would you choose that term? 22:01 GB: Well, I was born in this country. And I feel that it gave my parents a wonderful life, a safe life and so they were really grateful to be here. And so I feel that American-Armenian describes it the best. And I am proud of my Armenian heritage. 22:23 GS: How do you think your children would identify themselves? 22:26 GB: American. 22:27 GS: They would not use Armenian? 22:29 GB: I do not know. I really do not know. 22:32 GS: What are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora in general? Do you think that it was a survival mechanism after the genocide, do you think it is more part of a natural migratory pattern, do you think that is getting stronger, is it getting weaker, is it losing its identity, is it becoming more cohesive? 22:53 GB: I think that it was a way of survival that they had to leave, they had to go someplace. And most of my cousins ended up in France and they are still there, that is on my mother’s side. 23:06 GS: In Marseille? 23:07 GB: No, not in Marseille. Most of them are outside of Paris. And one was near Leon. And we went there and visited and got to know them, my husband and I. In fact, the two older boys when they were fourteen and sixteen, because the nephew that my mother and her sisters saved wanted them to come after my mother had died, he wrote and said that he wanted our two sons to come and visit. And they went for the whole summer and they loved it and they got along. They had a little bit of French in high school, junior high and a little smattering of Armenian, and they went and had a wonderful time. 23:54 GS: How do you see the Binghamton Armenian Community today? Do you think it is strong and getting stronger, do you think it is at risk at losing its identity? 24:04 GB: I would say, I thought it was at a risk of losing its identity because most of us were older and the younger people moved away after college to get their jobs they settled wherever their jobs were. However, it seems to be revitalizing. There are some young families that have come in. One is a professor at SUNY. I do not know if you have met him, Pegor, I cannot think of his last name, Aynajian ̶ 24:31 GS: I think I am about to be in contact with him soon possibly ̶ 24:34 GB: Okay, and his wife and they have three children now little ones, and there is another Armenian woman whose husband is not Armenian and he is a pharmacist and they have a little one, they have moved back or they have moved here. And there are several other young children, so these little ones. And it looks like it is kind of coming back, hopefully. 24:56 GS: Now, do you see, do you think that an important part of the Armenian community is the maintenance of Armenian language or do you think the community exists above the language? 25:09 GB: I think it exists above the language because I think the church is a nucleus that brings everyone together. 25:16 GS: But, as you talked about with your own family, you know, being Armenian Orthodox was not necessarily important having an Armenian identity, so do you think it is the Church as a physical space or the church is a religion institution that is important for the community? 25:32 GB: I think it is both. 25:34 GS: But you think it can survive with one being more important than the other as your community survived with you know only sporadic church services? 25:43 GB: Well the younger generation does not speak Armenian now. And I think it can survive that way. And most of the priests now speak English. So the Sermons are in English. 26:01 AD: I have a couple of questions. When you were growing up, do you remember in your house anything like your mother decorate the house pertaining to Armenian culture, you know like, maybe something she made with her hands like a little crochet–? 26:23 GB: Doilies, yes. 26:24 AD: Doilies, okay. 26:25 GB: Not crochet, needle work. You know they have this very fine needle work that they did, beautiful. 26:33 AD: Yeah, so did she teach you how to do that? 26:36 GB: She did not teach me how to do that but she did teach me how to knit and to sew and to embroider because she was a wonderful seamstress, taught me how to make things, clothes but as far as decorating the house outside of the needle work no. 26:57 AD: That was it? 26:58 GB: That was it. 26:59 AD: Was there any like any wall decoration that maybe pertaining to scenery of the homeland? 27:12 GB: No. When she came to Cuba, she probably just brought her clothes with her. She was not able to bring much more. 27:23 AD: Did they ever go back to visit the homeland? 27:27 GB: No. They never wanted to. And they really did not talk about their homeland that much either. 27:35 AD: Oh, they have not talked about? 27:37 GB: Not so much about what happened. They would talk about how wonderful it was and even though with the genocide, the Turkish neighbors were wonderful. And but because they lost their families, they were very sad about that. And it was hard for them to talk about that, their families and what happened to them. So, honestly I really do not know other than what happened to my father’s first wife and his son. I really do not know too much. 28:15 AD: They never referred to like nostalgic memories? 28:20 GB: Nostalgic yes. 28:22 AD: They did? 28:23 GB: The wonderful lives they had. And what they did growing up and my mother would talk about Christmas and the biggest thing to get was like a piece of–an orange was a gift. That was a big gift. 28:40 AD: How about Easter? 28:42 GB: Easter, they would go to church. In my mother’s family ̶ 28:45 AD: How about eggs? 28:47 GB: They did the eggs and I continue that tradition with the onion skins. Yes, I still do. 28:57 AD: Because that is not American, that is Armenian. 29:00 GB: But I continue that. 29:02 AD: No, you boil the egg. Can you tell us how you make it? 29:06 GB: Oh, you collect the onion skins from onions during the year until you have a lot and then at Easter time, what I do is I layer the onion skins in a pan and I gently put the eggs in on top of it and layer more onion skins on top, and then I put a little vinegar so that it holds the color and then you bring it to a boil and you turn it off and let it steep for 20 minutes so it is hardboiled. It gets a beautiful sort of a mahogany red color. 29:42 GS: So it is just a way to dye them? 29:44 GB: Yes, it is a way to dye them but also signifies the blood of Christ. 29:50 AD: Because I grew up in Istanbul and Easter in my mind represents red egg. 29:58 GB: Yes. 29:59 AD: Because always Armenian friends would give us those eggs ̶ 30:03 GB: Oh! 30:03 AD: So and I never seen that in anywhere else. 30:08 GB: I think the Greeks do that. 30:10 AD: Yes, the Greeks do that too because there is also some Greek population, so Easter represents red egg to me. So, yeah they did not talk about the past? 30:30 GB: They spoke lovingly about the past and the life they had but my father was young when he married and he came here I would say in my memory I think he said he was like nineteen or twenty. And so he married young and he had this one year old son that he left behind with his wife and they were caught up in the genocide. And she died and he ended up in an orphanage, a Greek orphanage. 31:00 AD: So, like for example painting those eggs is an Armenian tradition very much so. 31:04 GB: Yes. 31:05 AD: But like when you were growing up was there anything, for example when we entered the house, we took our shoes because this is not something we learn in this culture, it is like you know were taught is there any tradition that they say as Armenians we do that, like do you remember anything? 31:29 GB: We did not. I think my parents wanted to be Americanized because they were so happy to be in this country and be free and safe. So we never really went took off our shoes. We always went in the back door almost every friend; no one used the front door. I do not know whether that is a tradition or not but it just seemed to be that way. 31:56 AD: No, I mean not just taking off the shoes, something else, I do not know anything pertaining to Armenian culture, you know like this is how you treat your elder for example. 32:12 GB: Oh! Okay, you always, is when someone elderly they came you always serve them water with a plate under the glass. The glass on a plate, always. 32:24 AD: From what you said I gather that you took care of your mother when she got older so, is this a trend like in the community like when people get older? 32:43 GB: I do not think it is a trend. You know my father had died and my mother, we had Richard and I, my husband and had I moved back here from Washington. He got a job with IBM and so we bought a house and my father and mother lived with us. And my father died in 1960. And we had our first child in 1959 so he just knew him for a year. And he did not know our other two sons. And my mother was a widow. And she was a wonderful grandmother and they loved her and so we lived together. 33:27 AD: How about your other Armenian friends? Did you see that happening like they took care of their elderly? 33:37 GB: No. 33:38 AD: They did not. 33:38 GB: No, but I do not know, they did not have to or it was not necessary I do not know but no. I think, we were probably the only ones. 33:50 AD: So, there is like no much inter-dependency? 33:57 GB: I do not know how to answer that. They, I cannot think of any other a young couple that had their like mother-in-law, mother living with them. 34:13 AD: Okay, that is pretty much like westernized, like assimilated– 34:20 GB: Oh, and because it was necessary. I mean I did not want my mother to live alone. And I had a younger brother who had a disability and he lived with us a part of the time and then he was in Broome Developmental and we would bring him home on the weekends. 34:43 AD: But you said yours was unique case. 34:46 GB: I think so, I think so. 34:52 AD: Is there anything else you want to ask? 34:55 GS: That was it, thank you very much Grace. 34:57 GB: I want to show you the gold coin ̶ (End of Recording) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Grace Baradet https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c5897692febfd46fafe935420556930a.mp3 d5b673e7ea27d945a275ec08ad822c09 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 4/25/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Louise Kachadourian Kontos Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 43:46 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Louise Kachadourian Kontos Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 25 April 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:03 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is April 25, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 00:15 LK: My name is Louise Kachadourian Kontos. 00:20 JK: Um, where were you born? 00:22 LK: I was born in Binghamton, New York. 00:27 JK: And where were your parents born? 00:29 LK: My parents were born in what is now Turkish Armenia but it is in, in Armenia, Turkey. It is today Turkey. 00:41 JK: Do you remember what city or town or a village? 00:45 LK: My mother ̶ My father was born in the village of Har[put], Anoushavan and, and my mother was born in Hoğe, the village of Hoğe. 01:03 JK: Uh did they live there their entire lives or they came to the United States. 01:09 LK: They lived them up until the time of the, the Turkish massacre. 01:13 JK: And when did they ̶ do you remember when they left or was it before after the Armenian genocide. 01:22 LK: My father must have been a teenager when they came to his village and they had to flee. And he, he, they were the Euphrates River was close by. So whether he fled in the Euphrates, I know his brother did. And his brother will ̶ lived with a bullet in his head. And they dared not take that bullet out. When because the fact that was so closest brain, so he lived entire life with that bullet in his head. That was his older brother. Minas, who lived most of his life in France, and then in in Yerevan, Armenia. And my mother was a teenager, no, she was maybe ten, eleven years old. When she was ̶ her mother has sent her to the or ̶ to the orphanage. She tried to get through the lines with her brother, but they would not let her through. So she brought him back home. And after that she never saw him and he must have been about, he must have been about five or six years old. She must have been about eight or nine years old. 02:39 JK: And they never found each other. 02:42 LK: They never found each other and they never, she never returned. She tried for years to find him to track him down because he must have been about as I said, about five years old. And he was a redheaded boy. Mama remembers and she wanted to find him she could not find him she, she called every time a priest came into town she would ask questions and hope that she some somehow the word Mardin, an area where they have taken him and people had said they had seen him but she never saw him never ever heard about him. 03:25 JK: Um did, did uh how did they hear about the ̶ what was happening and had to flee did they- 03:36 LK: Well they started coming to the villages apparently from what Mama said they started coming taking, um taking families and people and transporting them on a march and taking their valuables away from them. They would she said they ̶ in her village, they took her grandfather and peeled his skin because he would not tell them where he they had hidden their, their valuables. They would, and then they took a pregnant woman and slit her abdomen, for the fetus to fall out. You are going to hear all these uncomfortable things. I am telling you, you are not going to like them. These are stories my parents related it as we grew up. 04:30 JK: They would tell you? 04:31 LK: All the time, they always my mother always talk she kept telling me that I would be another Joan of Arc that I would do something for you. She did not realize what, what it entailed. But anyway, um these are stories she ̶ we were children. We could have been five, six years old and she Mama would sit and tell us the stories and we would we would sit and cry with her. 04:58 JK: And she experienced them like firsthand? She experienced them firsthand? 05:03 LK: She experienced she said the children were so hungry. They would eat the greens on this, um, and when they, they had no water they were urinate and drink the urine and because they had no water they were- 05:18 JK: This is on the march? 05:20 LK: No This, this was could have been on the march. I do not remember that part of it. Mama did not go on the march she was she went to the orphanage where the Danish Danimarka ̶ the Danish uh missionaries took the children off the streets. That was where many of the ̶ and that was why so many of the Armenians became Protestant Armenians because they were converted. They did not convert them. They just preached to them. And this is um, Mama was not on the march. Mama, Mama somehow fled through the mission ̶ through the orphanage. She went from the orphanage. She had an uncle in Beirut. Or I do not know how he got money to her somehow. But Mama remembers playing the stock market. She was only a little girl. She was high and low. And she I remember her relaying those stories about the stock market and how she wanted to make to make some money to come to America. I really it is, you know, as you bring these stories, these questions up. It is things that I have forgotten. I wish I had related these things earlier. I have a tape with my father, where he told me his stories about his escape and how he fled and how people from America sent money for him to come to America. And when he came to America, he worked. He paid them back. This is how most of them got came here. Let us see. Yeah. Mama from there. I remember from the orphanage, she said her hair. Her head was so full of lice that they used to scrub her head to get [indistinct] because they could not take ̶ they had no baths, they would not ̶ no bathing, nothing. These Danish missionaries would wash, wash her hair and scrub her hair to get the lice out of her head. [indistinct] I, I only know the Armenian terms. I am assuming it was lice because [inaudible] I have not used those words in years. I do not use them ̶ there is no reason for me to use it. But um from there, she went to Beirut, Beirut Mama went from Beirut to Marseilles. I know she talked about Mars ̶ Marseilles and then [inaudible], another place she ̶ went to but keep asking questions I do not know. 08:21 JK: So how did, did she ̶ did your mom separate from her parents? 08:26 LK: Her father was already here in America. Her father had fled. His father had sent him right away, because he was a teacher. He sent him to America because it ̶ the soldiers were after him. The Turks were after him because they were going to kill him because he had beaten up a Turkish soldier. And they were-the word was out that they were going to come after him. So his fa-his father in whatever way was ship him to America. And my grandfather that was my grandfather died here in America in um in Massachusetts. He died of consumption, tuberculosis because he worked here in the in the mills, no one to take care of him and neglected himself and he contracted consumption. So he died here in his, his Cemetery in Lowell, Massachusetts in it is the Edson cemetery. And my uncle Garabed is, um, is buried there right next to him. And he died here in America too but he, he came here after and that is about it, that is all. He came after his father and his father had left there must have been a small estate or something left some money for them. So they divided I guess the percentage the brother gets more money than this sister because I do not know their ̶ I do not know. Whatever. 10:10 JK: [indinstict] back then. 10:11 LK: Whatever. But whatever that was whatever money was sent to her. So that she could come. 10:21 JK: Um, what about your mother? Or your mother's mother, so your grandmother. 10:26 LK: She died as soon as she ̶ they took the boy away from her. She died out there in the field. That was all she heard Mama heard. They came in took a little Harutyun. His name was Harutyun that is why my brother or your grandfather was named after him. He, he was when they came to take him she, she died there the field in near her home. That is all I know. I remember Mama saying also, also my grandfather had sent money to her to come to America and bring the family to America when he worked here in America at the mills. He sent the money to her, I remember Mama saying this. And instead of instead of picking the family up, this is before the um genocide. She ̶ my grandmother bought a house thinking that her husband is coming back home. And the genocide started after that. 11:36 JK: And she lost everything? 11:38 LK: Well, she died along with it. 11:43 JK: And then that was how your mother got into the orphanage system? 11:48 LK: Well she went to the orphanage when she was trying to take her brother with her that her mother was sending them both together. When she got through the lines, the lines and they would not let her through with her brother. They would let her ̶ Because they were holding on to all the little young men, and he could not have been maybe five, five years old, four or five years old. She would march with him to take him too but she could not get ̶ She brought him back home. She never saw him after that. 12:20 JK: Terrible. Um, your brother, my grandfather, Harutyun Kachadourian you were saying how your father lived in the mountains in a village and- 12:33 LK: He, he fled, he fled, and I do not think with any family, except with his family members. And I do remember up in Worcester, Massachusetts when I spoke to some of the Armenians up there. They told me that they lived in one room four families, every one family had a corner. And they said my father was so ̶ he was the only one he would go and find food find bread and he would bring bread, whether he would whether where he would get it from he would bring it and feed his brother and his family. His brother and his brother had at that time, maybe two or three children. And um ̶ but I remember the, the village people from my father's village said, my father was so [speaking in Armenian], so clever. So, he was he would always find ways to come in, bring food to feed the family. He was only a young boy himself. 13:48 JK: And this is back in, uh, Harp- 13:51 LK: In Ashvan, Ashvan, Ashvan my father they call them Ashvanse my mother they called Hoğetse because they came from Hoğet, the village of Hoğet. Papa came from the village of Ashvan Ash-Anooshavan I think, I believe it was Anooshavan and we called it Ashvan. 14:14 JK: And were they close nearby the two towns? Or no? 14:17 LK: I do not think so. Ashvanse was near the village of Korpe. I know that Korpetse because my father's cousin, um, Ohanian was ̶ and his son is out in California. He is ̶ became a lawyer Ohanjan Ohanian. There was a judge in Washington and became a judge out in California. And he-his father was from the village of Korpe and Korpe was near Ashvan that I know but Hoğ was, I do not think was near-near my mother's village. No. 14:58 JK: So then how did they meet? They met in America or ̶ 15:02 LK: Here in America. My father was a single man he came here to Binghamton New York. He, he ̶ weekends he was one weekend he was going an Armenian from Binghamton by the name of Nigerian, Louis Nigerian was going up to Massachusetts. And ̶ 15:27 JK: So going back to how ̶ 15:29 LK: Oh my father was. So one weekend Louis was going up to Massachusetts. He asked my father if he wanted to go. And of course, these young men were looking for brides. So he went up there. And in Worchester, Massachusetts, my father I do not know whether it was Worchester ̶ he-somebody told him about this girl, and my mother worked in ̶ for the Biltmore Hotel. She was a salad girl and she worked in some other place too because in a mill or something, because he, he went to the shop where she was working and he saw her and apparently Papa had been engaged to another girl before that. And he and ̶ but that did not work out because that girl wanted this and this for her family and he wanted a diamond ring she wanted, she wanted fur coat she wanted this for her mother. And so my father broke it off and in then I then he saw my mother in the slipper shop. She was working as a slipper shop then, and, and they and she saw when she saw him she, she did not like him at first. She said she did not want it, you know, but I do not know where she was where, because my mother was in Providence, Rhode Island and how she got to Worcester. I cannot remember the story, but she was worked in the south Biltmore Hotel in Providence, Rhode Island. And when she went the orphanage, she was designated to, to work in the kitchen. Because of her size or something, whatever she was older that boy, girl and they wanted to, and she worked her way ̶ she, she went to the classes, she went to school. She did. And before they found out and they found out that you they wanted to put her back in the kitchen. She was already established in the classroom, but she did not do. She did not want to work in the kitchen. She wanted to work. She wanted to go to school. And that was why my mother was an avid reader. She would love to anything I brought her own books in Armenian you know, she was sit down all night long and I would go on a convention with her. And I brought a book about Antoni the general who fought against the Turks. She, she sat in the toilet in the bathroom, because she did not want to keep us awake. She sat there with a light there and she sat and read that book all night long. She was so she loved to read, she loved to study; she and she was very bright and my cousin John often says that my mother, he ̶ his mother never taught him anything is you another Armenian. My mother would sit down and make us before we could get money to go to the movies. She we had to every Saturday we sat on this couch I will never forget. And all she sits in the middle and the rest of us on each side of her. We had to read our Armenian lesson, before we could go to get ten cents. It was always ten cents to go to the movies. She made the bag of popcorn for us a big brown bag of popcorn did it guess. But that was ̶ oh and she had a teacher. Her name is Belle Mason. Her mother was a judge. They were through the American Civic Association or what she used to come in to, to my mother at home, teach my mother. They took a liking to my mother. And they used to we used to go to her ̶ there. What is now part of Leverson was one of their homes. And we weekends we always used to come with their electric car and pick us up and take us to their house. We used to play with their beanbags out in the backyard. I remember that; grandfather should remember that too. 19:47 JK: Yeah. 19:47 LK: And let us see. And that was, what else can I remember Mama was a reader and an educator. She loved it. Not that she had formal education herself, whatever she learned in school and the orphanage. They wanted her to do KP duty but she, she wanted. She wanted to go to school and learn. And she taught me. She came here and was teaching me about the executive body, the legislative body, the judicial body. She learned all this from being tutored here and going to class ̶ did not go classes because she had little children. She had one right after another, so she could not. So they used to come and teach her at home. 20:38 JK: And did she ever go to school in, in her village, or she was too young? 20:44 LK: She probably went to school Armenian school in her village. 20:53 JK: Do you remember if there was a church there or ̶ 20:54 LK: There was and, oh, yes, church. Mama went to my Mom went to the [inaudible] or the, the, the um [speaks in Armenian]. The Armenian church ̶ she went the Armenian church in the morning. Also went to the Paul [indistinct] which is Protestant church, because her father used to preach in there. She learned the Bible, Mama learned the Bible. And she was ̶ went to [inaudible] Church in the morning in the Armenian Church, and the [inaudible] Church. She went to both churches. Now whether she I do not remember her relating whether her mother went but her fa-father was a teacher and he was a teacher and he also was like a minister in the in the church. And that was, that was it ̶ I guess one night he was coming home and they were they went to attack this attack him and he beat a Turkish soldier up a Turkish boy up or somebody. And they were after grandfather found out they were going to kill him so that he got him ready shipped him to America to get him out of the village. 22:22 JK: Did they bring anything with them when they had to leave? Nothing? 22:27 LK: Nothing. Nothing photos. No nothing. No nothing. Oh, except I do have one photo at home with my grandmother with their faces, like half covered and that was there. We have one photo at home. Yeah, we do have one photo. Now where that came from maybe Uncle Charlie brought it because I do not remember my mother bringing many pictures with her. 22:52 JK: They had to leave everything. 22:54 LK: She came with her clothes on her back. That was it. 23:02 JK: Wow! When they ̶ maybe your parents were too young, but did they work ever in their villages or? 23:08 LK: I never heard my mom ever. I do remember this about her uncle. He was hunchback and he fell off the roof. There was no medicine over doctors are something to correct that. And he grew up in that my uncle Charlie was hunch-hunchback. They used to call them Quasi[modo], hunchback guy or something like that there was a nickname for him. But work there? No, there were two young each children, you know. And they work maybe in the fields in the fields, because that was where my grandmother must have been out there when they took her took forcefully took the boy away from Harutyun away from her. And she had they said a heart attack. They were on the field. Yeah. 24:09 JK: So growing up, were you more Americanized or did you have Armenian culture behind that? 24:15 LK: I grew up in a in a building where the every there was no Armenians. We were the only Armenians there. There were Russians and Slovaks and Polaks. And we grew up in that building. And so and we grew up across the street from a [indistinct] Hall, which was a Slovakia gymnasium type of thing and we grew. And when we grew up there, we used to learn teach they used to talk in Slovak and count in Slovak and we learn to count there. And I remember my mother used to send us send me send us to Armenian school. There was an Armenian school on Jarvis Street and it was an Armenian Club and the second floor they had classroom. And Mama used to send me to Armenian classes there. And I think she, she paid twenty-five cents a week, twenty-five cents a week or month I cannot remember. But I remember twenty-five cents. She used to pay. And we used to go I used to go to Armenian classes there. And then whenever I once I started going out of town and going in Armenian communities, I started going to Armenian classes, I found classes, schools where they, they were teaching Armenian. And there were classes at Harvard University that I went to Armenian classes with Dr. Ara Avakian was teaching and I remember I ̶ they were amazed at the amount of Armenian I knew what I had learned and how I had learned the army and alphabet so well and I said they could not believe that I had learned it at home and from my parents from my mother. 26:04 JK: And both of your parents spoke Armenian correct? 26:07 LK: Spoke Armenian very well. And they spoke Armenian very well with one another. If they wanted to say something that they did not want us to know, because we knew Armenian, they would talk rattle back and forth in Turkish. And as much as they, they ̶ the trouble they had with the Turkish that was their that was their second language or first language in were they in their village. 26:41 JK: And how-what was the reasoning behind that? Why did not they learn Turkish instead of Armenian? 26:45 LK: They, they spoke Armenian fluently it was not. It was that the children they grew up with. It was like you were here in America. You speak English. That was your mother tongue here. And Armenian is your second tongue. There is it they are, they are just like the those influx of the Russian Armenians that are coming in their mother tongue is Russian, because that is like American here. So they learn Turkish but, but as my mother got older, because she did not use the language, she could understand it, but it was a little difficult for her to speak it. I remember going to Worchester, Massachusetts in Boston amongst some Armenians and who spoke Turkish. She Mama had difficulty in communicating. She could understand it and she could, but to relay it back it was a little bit difficult. 27:40 JK: Did she know how to write Armenian? 27:42 LK: Oh, yes, Mama read and write very well. 27:45 JK: And did she teach you and your brothers uh- 27:51 LK: -To read and write in Armenian? Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. In fact, right now I teach my grandchildren and I see-I sing it the ̶ I ̶ the alpha, beta which is alpha, beta ̶ that is in Greek. Ayb, Ben, Gim I sing it in Armenian Ayb, Ben Gim they start dancing to what they think that is cute. So they can go almost twelve letters they know Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Yeč, Za I really ̶ I sing it with them and they start dancing to it and they think that is cute. 28:23 JK: And so- 28:23 LK: And Dlouisa she learned to speak Armenian and Greek at the same time she speaks Greek with her father and Armenian with me. So anytime we want to say anything to each other. We talk in Armenian so Demos does not understand. 28:36 JK: That is funny. Did ̶ so you grew up in Binghamton, and you were born here, correct? Uh- 28:46 LK: Right on Clinton Street. 28:48 JK: And did you guys have any Armenian Church or anything to go to? 28:53 LK: We had Armenian churches I said the only way we could go if some ̶ if somebody picked us up and the church came about in 19 ̶ 1927 Vintage I think they, they bought the church and yes we had it but it was in the other south, south side of town It was too far away. And you had to either get a bus and take out and get passes and go and get transfers of downtown Binghamton to get to the south side. And maybe once or twice a maybe we did that I remember but that was it. Mostly the Armenian ̶ Harry Sarkisian used to come and pick us up. 29:32 JK: Do you, uh, did you enjoy when you could go to the church, did you enjoy going and learning about ̶ 29:39 LK: You know, I do not know I do not re ̶ it was not that I did not enjoy it. I did not know any different. And then on, on, on Sundays, Sunday afternoon, one o'clock or two o'clock. A Protestant Armenian Protestant Ministry used to come in from Syracuse Badveli Acemyan First, it was Hachadourian then by Acemyan he used to come here to Binghamton. And all the Armenians from the south side, the Protestant Armenians, they used to walk everybody walked to go to church ̶ go to hear him speak. You know ̶ 30:16 JK: That must have been nice to see. 30:18 LK: It was it was very nice. I remember. And my choir director, Lilian Bogdasarian used to play the piano when she stopped, I started playing for them. For them. That was, that was at the first congregation church here on the corner of Front and Main Street. 30:37 JK: Uh and did the priest come weekly or was it monthly? 30:41 LK: Oh, no, the priest if we at that time, if we had a priest, we used to have ̶ we were lucky if we had a priest every once every three months, something like that that came in from New York. 30:54 JK: Yeah. And other people I have interviewed. They seem to be like ̶ their family became more Americanized you any ̶ but your family seems that they were ̶ 31:04 LK: My mother became Americanized when started doing business work, but that was much later. 31:11 JK: Yeah. Well, it seems like your early childhood that you were very you were introduced to Armenian culture with learning the Armenian alphabet, speaking Armenian, going to church when you could ̶ 31:28 LK: Church, but any social events ̶ Oh, I do remember one social event on. We went in the hall that used to be across the street from St. Michael's Church. They used to have a building there. It is not there anymore. But anyway, I remember. They used to have presentations. And they used to have speakers that u-they called [unintelligible] used to come and speak to the Armenians. And I remember my mother teaching me some Armenian poet ̶ some poem and I was supposed to get up and spe ̶ and I got up in front. And I got scared and I started crying. And my father came in and, you know, put his arms around me and hugged me, but, you know, but I was afraid I was I had to do this poem I was only I could not have been maybe five, six years old at that time. 32:18 JK: Yeah. But why do you think your family kept the Armenian culture rather than hiding it away and becoming more Americanized growing up? Can you think ̶ 32:33 LK: Because they were Armenian-Armenian, you know, they were. They were and they, they. In fact, even in later years, my mother was reading the Armenian papers she would give it she would say, this is a good article, she would come and make ask me to read it, you know, and she that was how I learned my just listening to my father's reading the paper by phonetics. He was doing like you would do a be is ̶ 33:03 JK: Yeah phonetically. 33:05 LK: Phonetically when he was reading the paper that way and I heard it so much more and as I grew up. And I started putting it together that it was much easier to read in Armenian and I could. And when I read the liturgy in church, I read it every all the time in Armenian that makes my Armenian to be more fluent, not in speaking, more so in reading, you see. And the more I look at it and the closer I read the by ̶ the liturgy in Armenian than my-my Armenian gets better, not the converse-the conversation okay, but my reading and writing, so I can read and write in Armenian. My mother was amazed how much I because I was in Brooklyn amongst no Armenians at all. And until I met an Armenian family, whose mother was a patient of mine and she ̶ I used to go to their home and they were all very Armenian and they spoke Armenian fluently and they were very active in the church in New York City. So that, that was it. I, I ̶ they did not say you have to be Armenian they that was just around us. We it was part of our growing up. We did not know any differently. 34:26 JK: That is very interesting. 34:29 LK: And of course, my brothers also grew up. There was Armenian boys in the neighborhood. 34:34 JK: Yeah, yeah. 34:35 LK: Antranig was a little boy. We used to call him Antranig, Antranig ̶ Oh, that Antranig was a general you know and so. And we used to, they used they grew up with these Armenian boys and we used to go to the Main Street Baptist Church. Mama used to make us ̶ send us to the first is a Syrian church Armen-Syria [inaudible] Syrian Church for Sunday school. It was only a couple blocks away. After that, then when they moved away, we went to the Main Street Baptist Church. And we all, we all grew up in the ̶ it was not that my parents kept the American culture away from us. They we were always exposed to it especially once you go to school, you were all your friends are all different nationalities you grow up with. And they when they when they were part of the Baptist Church, all the Armenians in the neighborhood used to go there, all the Armenian boys, they had their own basketball team there, you know, and they're all the boys were Armenian boys there. 35:40 JK: Yeah. So growing up in your neighborhood, you had other Armenians to hang around with and ̶ 35:47 LK: Not in my neighborhood no they were all Slovak and Russian and Pol ̶ no Armenians in our neigh-except Antranig. Antranig was the only Armenian boy and um ̶ 35:58 JK: And did he go to high school with you or a school with you? 36:02 LK: Not with me with my brothers. He went with ̶ Antranig went to school with my brothers with who else was in- 36:11 JK: Was there any Armenian ̶ other Armenians in your high school or? 36:14 LK: Oh yeah, high school girls. And I you know palled around with the [indistinct] you know all these now they were the ̶ yeah we palled around we hung around with each other afterward not so much in school because we were all in-taking different courses you know, I,I was taking a college course they were taking commercial courses they were you know, 36:45 JK: Did you ever socialize ̶ well did you American friend-did you have Armer-American friends and Armenian friends, correct? 36:54 LK: I had American friends. My, my friend was a,an undertaker's daughter. They only live two doors away and they were ̶ they had a funeral home there. And I grew up with Julie. Julie. I grew up with her She was my only the, only girlfriend I had that I remember. 37:15 JK: And did your American friends, did they know about Armenia and like what was going on? 37:21 LK: Never talked about it. 37:22 JK: Never? 37:23 LK: Never discussed it never ̶ you know that-that maybe You know, I do not remember the they were even ridiculing me or anything like that. 37:34 JK: Mhm. If they ever came to your house, did they ever see anything Armenian that would stand out distinctively or do you recall anything in your home that showed Armenian culture? 37:46 LK: The only thing I remember, in my home that I ̶ my mother used to make a big chart and it had the alphabet. And it had she used to make it so that we would all learn and, and every time even when we move from there to Clark Street, she made the Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Yeč, Za she put the whole alphabet there and that was the only Armenian that I ̶ and also when they killed the bishop in, in New York City in 1936 time, time in vintage. There was pictures of him. And I used to be so scared of those pictures. Because at night that was all I could get from my bed room that I could-from there on the wall. I could see his picture. And what did we know about death? We did ̶ I did not know anything about death except when I was in school, a little boy classmate of ours. And in those days, they used to keep the bodies in the home and they used to put a big wreath in the front of the house. You know, there was somebody had died and there was a dead body in that house. There was no funeral homes ̶ funeral parlors at the time. That I know that of. If there was maybe people could not afford it. I do not know. 39:04 JK: You said you had brothers growing up could you name them and- 39:08 LK: My brothers? 39:09 JK: And put their relation to yours? How old they are? 39:13 LK: My brother Harutyun, my brother Aristaks and Arslan three brothers. 39:20 JK: And- 39:21 LK: And Arslan,Garabed came afterward. 39:24 JK: And do they have ̶ they have Armenian names correct? 39:29 LK: Harutyun, Aristaks. Aristaks is the name of St. Gregory the illuminator. His one of his sons Aristaks and they pray with every Sunday in church they pray for Aristaks. Yeah, his name is mentioned every time in the in the church Badarak ̶ the liturgy ̶ Badarak Armenian. Badarak means liturgy in Armenian. And Harutyun, they all went to college they all went to the Harutyun became more of a ̶ into my mother I will never forget ̶ she sent him to Wayne University and Aristaks was going there and they both went to Wayne State University because I guess, I do not know why they picked that school at that time ̶ they could tell you that, that story more than I can but Harutyun was upset with the dormitory [speaks in Armenian] he got up on the bus and came right back home and my mother shipped him right back on the next bus. [laughs] 40:49 JK: That is funny. 40:50 LK: Yeah. 40:51 JK: Why do you think ̶ I want to end off here-why do you think it was so important for your mother to teach her children you guys Armenian? 41:06 LK: Maybe it was something she wanted to carry on ̶ her heritage, you know. carry ̶ and, and it was just second nature to us we did not know any differently and it was it was if they said if our parents said jump we jumped we did not say how high we just said we jumped if they said lay down and die we died because that was what they said we, we obeyed our parents so we did not dare never never would, would we ever talk back to our parents never never, never I never remember any of ̶ even my brothers never. I remember my brother Harutyun ̶ we got ahold of some firecrackers and once firecracker did not go off and he went with his hand and put it in it and it blew up in his hand ask him about that firecracker. 42:05 JK: Oh my god. 42:05 LK: Yeah. I will never forget this. And then another time my mother wanted to send me to the bakery and I did not want to take Harutyun with me and he fell off the roof ̶ off the garage roof and, and yeah and they blamed me because I did not take him if I had taken him he would not have been home to fall off the roof. 42:25 JK: Is there anything else you would like to add about ̶ 42:30 LK: No I really do not know that right now. Maybe Harutyun or those-A-Aristaks why do not you ask them? They, they have a-they are, they are interpretation and their, their impression of what, what how they grew up what they grew up what they said to say. Because they were more outwardly, they went to the boys club they went to the YMCA. I could not ̶ I did not go anywhere I did not, I did not have anywhere to go to. You know my brothers went out to the field and they played they played football and baseball I had to stay home and do the house cleaning and you know I did the every Monday Mama washed clothes and that Monday I, I came home and I had to iron clothes. I did the ̶ and the and every Saturday I-morning we had to clean house so we that was my job to clean the legs of the dining room table. The dining room table is still at Clarke Street. And it had these grooves in it all these ̶ and it was my job to clean all these grooves. and I said to my mother one day I said Mama why did not you have more girls? Why did I have to do all the work. [laughs] 43:41 JK: That is funny. Okay thank you so much. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Louise Kachadourian Kontos is a daughter of genocide survivors. Along with her four brothers, she was born and raised in Binghamton. She keeps ties to the Armenian community and teaches Armenian traditions to her daughter and grandchildren. Louise and her husband, Demos continue to live in the Binghamton area. Keywords Armenian; Turkey; Binghamton; Armenian community; Culture; Genocide; Stories; Armenian church; Family. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Louise Kachadourian Kontos