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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4998a4670668f2cd24934fc295caa0be.mp3
748f5ce7b7551c56a66a12101c1e6da3
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
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Date of Interview
2/5/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Nora Kachadoourian
Duration
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44:17
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
Nora was born in Beirut, Lebanon to first-generation Armenian parents. When she was thirteen years old during the Lebanese Civil War, they moved to Montreal, Canada. Later on, she studied Business Administration at the University of Montreal. She currently resides in Binghamton with her husband. Together they have three children; Melanie, Jackie, and Henry.
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"massacre; Syria; Turkey; Lebanon; language; Civil War; Sunday School; church; Christianity; traditions; food; diaspora; identity; Mount Ararat"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">massacre; Syria; Turkey; Lebanon; language; Civil War; Sunday School; church; Christianity; traditions; food; diaspora; identity; Mount Ararat</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Nora Kabakian Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 5 February 2017
Interview Setting: Vestal, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:10
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s special collection library on Armenian Oral History Project. Today is February 5, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:23
NK: Nora Kabakian Kachadourian.
0:30
JK: Where were you born?
0:32
NK: Beirut, Lebanon.
0:34
JK: Who were your parents?
0:37
NK: Mihran Kabakian and Meline Kashukchian.
0:43
JK: Where were they from?
0:46
NK: My father was born in Antep, Turkey, and my mom was born in Lebanon.
0:55
JK: And why did they immigrate to Canada?
1:02
NK: Well from Turkey, Antep– my father during the massacre, they moved to Aleppo, Tur– Aleppo, Syria and from there, he moved to Lebanon. And my mom, from Bursa, Turkey, they moved to Syria and from Syria they moved to Beirut, Lebanon. And from there, during the civil war, in 1975, we moved to Montreal, Canada.
1:53
JK: What were the reasons for moving from Turkey to Syria?
1:58
NK: To survive the massacre, they moved, they were being killed during the massacre so the– my grandparents moved gradually from Armenia to Turkey and they were established in Turkey. And from there, slowly, gradually, they moved to Syria and from Syria to Lebanon.
2:31
JK: What happened in Turkey? What was going on that caused– did they have to leave walking– or what? What did they have to do to leave?
2:41
NK: Well they had to leave everything– uh– In Armenia, they had to leave their land, their houses, and gradually they moved to my father, my grandfather moved to Antep. He had a job as a, as a control–accountant controller in the established bank and from there, my father was born in Antep, Turkey and when he was around four or five, during nineteen-fifteen, the massacre, they slowly moved closest areas they could find, Aleppo, Syria. And then my mom’s side of my grandfather was working for– he was a tailor working for the Turkish army, he was a very well-known tailor, so that was how he escaped to Syria. They have them– his family– to move to Syria and from Syria they moved to Lebanon.
4:13
JK: Is there any stories living in Turkey that you can remember? From either side of your family?
4:21
NK: Well my father’s side, my father was young, maybe around four, he was born in Antep but his mother, well, they moved from Antep to Syria, Aleppo, he was– my grandmother’s brother was a lawyer, very well-established lawyer and he worked for the– in Turkey– and then– for the state– and they– my grandmother did not know but after nine–late nineteen–nineteen uh, (19)18 or (19)19, around that period of time, they somehow, they wanted to get rid of him and they hang him. And my grandmother did not know and when she– somebody told her like felt sorry about how they killed my grandmother’s brother, he– they, they told her what happened and my grandmother just did not know about it and when she heard it like that– three days after, she passed away from the news. It was horrifying to hear how her brother died.
6:15
JK: This is in Syria?
6:16
NK: Um, they– yeah they killer her in Turkey and she found out when she was in Syria and she passed away because– three days after she was in shock and my father was like orphan because, you know, lost her mom right after they escaped the massacre in 1915.
6:45
JK: And when did your parents meet? Or where did they meet?
6:51
NK: In Lebanon, my mom and met in Lebanon, through a friend and they got married.
7:00
JK: Which part of Lebanon?
7:02
NK: Beirut, Lebanon.
7:04
JK: And what year was this?
7:07
NK: Uh, late 1949.
7:12
JK: Did they ever want to go back to Turkey or Armenia?
7:18
NK: Uh, no. No.
7:21
JK: Have they ever been to Turkey or Armenia– I mean Armenia?
7:27
NK: Uh, my father has been but not my mom.
7:32
JK: Okay so, he went to Armenia?
7:35
NK: Yes, and also she– he was– because lost her mom, and he went and study in Jerusalem after visit Armenia and then he got the scholarship, he was very smart he got scholarship in Wyoming, United States. That was how he became a chemist, study in Wyoming University.
8:07
JK: After he studied in Wyoming he went back to Lebanon?
8:11
NK: Yes, and he started business in Lebanon, a textile fabric–you know, a textile company factory. He started in Lebanon.
8:25
JK: In Beirut?
8:26
NK: Beirut, Lebanon.
8:28
JK: Did both your parents work?
8:31
NK: My mom also work as– she was a tailor.
8:40
JK: And how long did you guys stay in Lebanon before leaving to Canada?
8:44
NK: We stayed until 1975. During the war, we went to Canada and my father left Lebanon in early (19)80s, after– because he had a factory he had to, you know, take care of it and then he came to Canada also.
9:15
JK: Did your parents go to school, high school or college?
9:19
NK: Yes. My mom went to high school and then went to a school and she became a tailor and my dad had several degrees in Chemistry. He went one semester, or one year to MIT in Massachusetts and then Wyoming University in Cheyenne. He has a degree in Chemistry.
10:00
JK: So how old was your father when he left Turkey?
10:04
NK: He was about four years old.
10:08
JK: Did he have any brothers or sisters?
10:12
NK: Yes, a sister and a brother.
10:15
JK: Are they still alive?
10:17
NK: No.
10:19
JK: Did they come to Canada too? Or– after they left Turkey?
10:23
NK: No, my aunt, her name is Mary Zenian, she moved to– from Lebanon she got married and soon she moved to New Jersey.
10:44
JK: And do they– do they remember anything that they told you about living in Turkey or what they did in Turkey?
10:53
NK: No, just they– to have a better life they– my father helped them and they moved to New Jersey to start a new life there.
11:11
JK: Is there any– before the genocide, did they get along with everyone in Turkey?
11:20
NK: Yes, they, they had jobs like I said my grandfather, his name was Edward Kabakian, he work for the bank, he was a controller for the bank and that was how he met his wife and when the wife came to the bank and they met and that was how they got married and then they moved– a few years after, they moved to Syria to survive because slowly everybody was moving in order to stay alive.
12:12
JK: Was– only the Armenians had to leave Turkey, or what happened that they had to leave, like? They–were they told to leave or they were going to kill them or what?
12:23
NK: Yes, they– while they can because people were getting killed and they already moved from Armenia, left their land, my grandfather, Edward, had land in Armenia, uh houses and they had to leave, they moved to Antep, Turkey and they had jobs there but, it was– things were getting worse because the World War I started in early 1914, (19)15, and, and it was, people in Turkey they were taking advantage of the war going on and so that was why they start to move– things were getting worse and they had to survive. That was how they went to closest cities, Aleppo, Syria, some moved to Egypt to Greece, Europe, France, so they were trying to survive.
13:44
JK: Did any of your family go anywhere else other than Syria?
13:49
NK: Well my mom’s side, from Bursa, to– they moved a lot of my mom’s side of family moved to France also to survive and a lot of people moved to Syria, so it depends.
14:14
JK: Did they ever– so the people told them to leave before they got into any trouble, right?
14:23
NK: Yes, like my father– my mother’s side, my grandfather’s name was Leon Kachakjian, and he was a very well know tailor in Bursa, Turkey. He was doing all the army outfits for the army and he had lots of friends and they help his family move to, from Bursa to Syria to survive because word got out that they were getting killed and there was some good friends of my grandfather he– they help them get away from the area and move outside of Turkey.
15:27
JK: Do you remember what year this was?
15:31
NK: 1915.
15:33
JK: So during the genocide?
15:42
NK: Yes.
15:38
JK: So did both of your parents speak Armenian?
15:42
NK: Yes.
15:44
JK: Did they speak any other languages?
15:46
NK: They also spoke Turkish and English and French.
15:52
JK: Did they write Armenian?
15:58
NK: Yes, very fluent in Armenian and also they spoke Turkish, and because they moved to Syria and after Lebanon, they spoke also Arabic.
16:12
JK: Did they know how to write Armenian?
16:15
NK: Yes, they knew how to write Armenian.
16:18
JK: Was it– Armenian their first language they learned how to write and read?
16:22
NK: Yes.
16:27
JK: Do you have any siblings?
16:28
NK: Yes, I have three brothers and a sister.
16:33
JK: And what is their age relative to you?
16:36
NK: I am the youngest and there–at least the oldest is fourteen years older than me.
16:46
JK: Can you say their names?
16:47
NK: Yes, my oldest brother is Leon, my other brother, Edward, and another brother Varoujan, and my sister Anahid and I am the youngest of all my siblings.
17:05
JK: Do your siblings have Armenian names?
17:14
NK: Yes, my oldest brother name is Levon which is an Armenian name, named after my grandfather who died and also Edouard is Armenian name for [inaudible], and Varoujan is an Armenian name and Anahid is also Armenian name. And my name is Armenian also.
17:42
JK: What is it– do they have any meanings?
17:46
NK: um, not that I know–
17:48
JK: Like Nora.
17:51
NK: Nora means new in Armenian. Anahid is– Ani is an Armenian city, Ani is named after that and Varoujan also means strong in Armenian but that is all.
18:16
JK: When they came to–when you guys came to Canada did you guys change your names to English or French names?
18:23
NK: Well, we– there is a certain version like Levon is Leon and Anahid short for Ani so my sister made it shorter but we kept in our passport is the Armenian names.
18:48
JK: Now did your parents speak Armenian to you when you guys were growing up?
18:53
NK: Yes, Armenian.
18:54
JK: Is that the first language you guys learned?
18:57
NK: Yes, it is the first language.
19:01
JK: Was there any other languages you guys learned growing up?
19:04
NK: Yes, we spoke French also and of course we had to speak Arabic also and we understand a little bit of Turkish.
19:21
JK: Did your parents ever speak Turkish to you so you would not understand in the household.
19:25
NK: Yes. I believe my grandparents, they spoke Turkish and also sometimes my parents also spoke, so we do not understand but we picked up– that was how we picked up the– that was how I know a little bit of Turkish by hearing them speak while growing up.
19:55
JK: Now, growing up, was there a large Armenian community in Lebanon?
20:00
NK: Yes, we– I grew up in a big Armenian community in Beirut, Lebanon. We went to Armenian and also Armenian and French school in Lebanon. The name is Nishan Palandjian Jemaran, which is Armenian.
20:26
JK: Did you guys speak Armenian in this school or French?
20:53
NK: We had to speak Armenian and learn Armenian history in Armenian and we spoke French and French history in French language and secondary language would be considered English. [audio is inaudible] And also, we had to speak Arabic and the history in Arabic language.
21:06
JK: Did you have any Armenian friends growing up? Were they all Armenian, your friends in high school and school?
21:13
NK: Yes, we had a lot of Armenian friends but there were a lot of French friends and– from Europe there were a lot of people from different countries, especially Europe, in Lebanon. It was a very international city so we had different friends from different areas.
21:46
JK: Now, the people you were growing up with, did they have to– why did, why did they– do you remember why they came to Syria– I mean Lebanon? Was it because of the–
21:57
NK: For better jobs and also its Christian country and there was a lot of opportunities for new jobs and we had different schools¬¬¬-French English and so people had the choices that they could enjoy, uh, whatever they prefer.
23:22
JK: Did they – did some come from Armenia or Turkey during the genocide? Do you remember? Like the– your– the students– the Armenian community.
23:30
NK: Oh yes, they used to come from all over to the Armenian school because there was people from Africa, my sister friend was from Europe and they came to learn Armenia in Lebanon because it was very well known–established Armenian school and so they come from all over the world to study at that school.
23:22
JK: Did anybody come from Turkey or Armenia that you remember that had to escape the genocide?
23:30
NK: A lot of people came besides my family from Aleppo and then they came to Lebanon there was a lot of Armenians.
23:45
JK: Did your– do you remember any stories they told you about leaving?
23:59
NK: Yes, it was very hard for them to leave everything; their land, their belongings in order to survive and how– some people helped them survive. Some died on their way to escape, they died because they were ‘fleding’, it depends what areas they were from in Turkey and some were fortunate, some died trying to escape during the massacre.
24:40
JK: Did you go to– was there an Armenian church where you grew up?
24:45
NK: Yes. Within walking distance there was an Armenian church and every Sunday my mom always tried to go Armenian Church and it was very convenient.
25:07
JK: What was it like growing up in Beirut?
25:11
NK: It was very nice area growing up in Beirut until the war, Civil War started and we had to move again. But growing up I had good memories in Beirut, Lebanon and uh and a lot of people that we knew moved from Turkey to survive and then they got established in Beirut, Lebanon. And we had a big Armenian community and it was, you know, the Lebanese people help– the– there was a– growing up– and then it was hard to move again because the Civil War in Lebanon, yes, because the nineteen seventies the war was pretty bad in Lebanon so that was how people moved to United States, Canada, Europe.
26:22
JK: So do you–
26:34
NK: It was déjà vu again for us because again we had to move again from Lebanon to Canada.
26:43
JK: Did you move before Lebanon or–?
26:46
NK: My grandparents move from Turkey to Lebanon. I was born in Beirut, Lebanon.
26:56
JK: Did anybody stay in Lebanon?
26:58
NK: Oh yes, there is a– I have some family– my–some of my aunts are still in Lebanon and some of my cousins. They stayed in Lebanon. There is a lot of Armenians right now in Lebanon.
27:17
JK: Now, why– why would you decide to go to Canada instead of the United States?
27:26
NK: Um, we could have went to United States but it was kind of easy for us– my mom’s sister was in Montreal, Canada and she, she helped us move there but I– we could have moved to New Jersey also because my father’s sister was in New Jersey also but it was easier at that time when we were escaping Lebanon, uh, it was easier to get to Canada somehow.
28:05
JK: Did all of you guys leave at the same time?
28:07
NK: No, my brothers and sisters they moved to Montreal, Canada to Cyprus–they went from Cyprus to Canada. And also my– one of my brothers Edouard Kabakian, he had a– won a scholarship from Lebanon in early 1974 and, uh, he went to Montpellier, France. So since then, he lives in France right now so he moved from Lebanon to France.
28:54
JK: Did he ever join you in Canada or he lived in France this whole time?
28:58
NK: No during– before the war started in 1973, (19)74, he won a scholarship, he was very smart in Lebanon so he moved to France to study and–
29:17
JK: Did he ever move to Canada?
29:20
NK: No he never moved to Canada. He– from Lebanon he move to France because he was studying, he had a scholarship and he had to– he just established– after he study he stayed in France.
29:39
JK: And what did your parents do in Lebanon? What did they– where did they work or what did they do?
29:45
NK: My father opened a textile factory in Lebanon. He was the first person to open a textile factory and he worked there and, and then my brother, Levon Kabakian, he also study– my father send him, uh, study in Switzerland in the same type of, uh field, in chemistry textile– chemistry and from there my fa–brother got his education in Switzerland and then he worked for several textile companies in Canada and my sister also went to university in Lebanon, it is called AUB, American University in Lebanon. And then she continued her education in Canada and also my youngest brother went– study in Canada also, University of Concordia.
31:14
JK: Did– how old were all of you guys when you guys left Lebanon?
31:22
NK: Um, I was thirteen years old when I moved from Lebanon to Montreal. I believe my brother was in–eighteen when he moved to Canada. My sister in her twenties and they moved to Canada.
31:54
JK: So you guys left because of the war that was going on?
31:58
NK: Yes, we tried to escape the Civil War.
32:01
JK: Was there any experiences or any encounters you had while growing up in the area? That was, like, bad?
32:10
NK: Well in 1975 two of my brothers and my sister moved– tried to catch a, like a small boat and then went to Cyprus. From there, they stayed there and then from there they tried to move to Montreal, Canada. But I was there on one side of Lebanon with my mom and my dad was stuck on the other side of Lebanon in this factory. So we did not see each other for at least six months because the borders were tight and there was a, a war going on between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon. It was kind of very, you know, very bad situation because you could not communicate and in order to survive we had to go– me and my mom for a long time, I was young we were stuck in the house and just survive you had to go get water and bread and there was–– everything was shut on one side. People were getting killed and it was a miracle we survived. A lot of neighbors not far from us died because there was a lot of bombs falling, air strikes and, and then, uh, when there was a cease fire, that was when we tried to get our passport and move– tried to move somewhere safe and that was where we1977 we tried to come to Montreal, Canada, I was like thirteen-year-old. Me and my mom when the airports were open, we, we tried to gather our stuff and move to Montreal, Canada and then eventually my dad also came to Montreal, Canada, and also he lost his factory it was destroyed and lost everything so we had to start all over in Montreal, Canada.
35:07
JK: Now what did they do in Montreal? Did they–
35:12
NK: We– I went to school and, uh, and my brothers and sisters they went to school and had jobs and then slowly, you know, we worked and graduate school and, you know.
35:30
JK: Did you guys go to Armenian school at all in Can–Montreal?
35:37
NK: No, we were– we just went to French high school there and a university but we have an Armenian school and there is a big Armenian community in Montreal because Lebanon– and people moved during the war from Lebanon to Canada to United States and they, of course, they started establishing Armenian schools and for the new generations.
36:22
JK: Was there a large Armenian community when you went to Montreal?
36:26
NK: Yes, we had a, a lot– at least three, four Armenian churches and two Armenian schools in Montreal, Canada.
36:40
JK: Did you attend bible school or Armenian language school in Lebanon or Montreal?
36:48
NK: No, I went to Armenian Bible Sunday School, we called it. Yes, I attended but because I went to–when I was young I went in Lebanon Armenian school, I, I did not need to continue learn, but people who do not– did not know Armenian, there was programs they could sign up to learn Armenian and eventually after they, uh, they built the Armenian school– first it was elementary then all the way to high school.
37:31
JK: So after you went to high– finished high school, did you go to college in Ar–Montreal?
37:39
NK: Yes, I went college. I study Business Administration.
37:45
JK: And, where was it?
37:46
NK: In University of Montreal.
37:51
JK: And then how did you end up coming to the United States and living here?
37:59
NK: Um, I was, uh, working in Montreal and also attending, uh, education. When I my aunt in North Jersey, I wanted us to visit her and also invited us to Armenian event in North Jersey. So my mom and I drove there to visit my aunt in North Jersey and she took us to a Armenian church and–
38:42
JK: Do you remember the name?
38:43
NK: Yeah, it is The Armenian Church in St. Thomas, North Jersey. And she wanted us go there for a, I think it was a mother’s day luncheon, after church and I took my mom and we went there and that was how I met my husband, Mark Kachadourian, because he is from Binghamton and he went to that luncheon in North Jersey from Binghamton area to– there was a church’s event. So that was how I met him over there in New Jersey.
39:37
JK: And how did you guys meet?
39:39
NK: In– during– after church there was luncheon sponsored by St. Thomas Church that was how I met Mark Kachadourian.
39:52
JK: But, did you guys, like–
39:58
NK: We just met– the– there was a lot of Armenians attended from Binghamton to the St. Thomas Church in New Jersey and that was how a lot of people met each other during the lunch.
40:17
JK: How did you guys start– did you guys talk with other Armenians, or what?
40:23
NK: Yes, from different region because I was from Canada and my aunt was from New Jersey and they, they– we share a big round table and that was how we met, uh, a lot of Armenians from this area, Binghamton and the New Jersey area.
40:50
JK: So, who was– how did your aunt end up in North Jersey, and which side?
40:56
NK: My father’s sister, Mary Zenian from Syria, shortly after she got married and they move– tried to come to New Jersey, they got in a boat and they escaped the Syria and came to North Jersey in early 1930s, I think. It was around 1930s, they moved to– from Syria they came to North Jersey.
41:45
JK: Now, why did not your father go to–
41:48
NK: My father went to– he had a scholarship to study in Wyoming. He travelled all over and then he came to New Jersey but then he wanted to open his factory in Lebanon and that was how he established in Lebanon after he had his studies in United States, he went back and opened a factory in Lebanon.
42:27
JK: Did he meet your, uh, your mom in– after or before he studied in Wyoming?
42:36
NK: After he studied in Wyoming.
42:40
JK: Was there a large community in the Armenian community in North Jersey?
42:46
NK: Yes, it was big Armenian community, also they have Armenian school in New Jersey and, and a few churches, a lot of churches.
43:05
JK: Now, growing up in Montreal, in high school, did you guys have– did you have Armenian friends or non-Armenian friends?
43:11
NK: We had so many and–French and Armenian friends and Lebanese friends. A lot of different nationality.
43:27
JK: Did you all intermingle with each other or have distinct groups?
43:33
NK: Yes, we mingled with each other, yes.
43:39
JK: But did you have– only if you hung out with your French friends and then hung out with your Armenian friends or they all hung out with each other?
43:50
NK: Uh, some of my French uh they were really interested, uh, talking to my father from work– they always come visit, they like to hear the stories that my father had. But also we had Armenian friends and old friends–
44:14
Unknown: No
44:14
NK: So?
44:15
Unknown: Lady Gaga.
44:25
JK: Okay, so what were some of the family traditions you kept in your household that related to Armenian culture?
44:38
NK: We had several tradition. Its– but we always talked about the Armenian history, um, and how our ancestors tried to keep our heritage going-our culture and, uh, we, we are a nation of rich culture. We have a– our own alphabet– very unique– our own stories and we have a very unique Armenian dance and–
45:31
JK: So can you name some of the examples of the culture that is kept in your family?
45:41
NK: We always spoke Armenian so that is very– keep our children informed with our rich language which is very unique alphabet and, uh, we have very good Armenian songs that we sang and special dances we dance and we always– very religious nation. We are the first Arm– nation to be Christian– to accept Christianity. So, uh, we always kept our religious background and taught our children our language and our religion.
46:34
JK: So what were some traditions that your parents would maintain in the household? Maybe certain foods, songs?
46:47
NK: Uh, yes, we have Armenian song, a very, uh, uh, known– it is a– about our Armenian nation and how we survive and wherever we go, we build a churches and schools and we keep going wherever, uh, we go we always get together and make Armenian food and we have a– our special Armenian Christmas which is always on January 6 and we make a special Easter, we make a special bread. It is çörek, it is called çörek and we have several different holidays, we get together and celebrate and on Easter, always we go church and Armenian Christmas always comes on January 6. We try to go and celebrate. It is different and we have our Independence Day which is May 28, we celebrate. And, of course, on April 24, the genocide we always try to remember and pay our tributes and, uh, that is our cultures keeps going and our ̶ remember our heritage and how our ancestors, you know, went through a lot to keep our Armenian culture alive.
48:45
JK: So what kind of Armenian food did you guys have that was kept in the household?
48:55
NK: Uh, we have– we make of course a lot of rice, we call it pilav, and with a lot of– we have different rice, we call it pilav, which is a very traditional food with pasta– different pastas and Armenian string cheese. We have dried fruits– several different types of dried fruits and, and we have– very similar to Middle Eastern food and its very similar because as a neighbor– when we were growing up we have similar food– Mediterranean– it is a different food.
49:57
JK: Did you have Armenian food in Lebanon, or was it Lebanese food or was it–?
50:04
NK: It is Armenian-Lebanese combination. It is very similar, we have stuffed grape leaves which is similar to Lebanese food and–
50:18
JK: Do you have the Armenian name for what it is called?
50:23
NK: We call it– grape leaves– we call it sarma– yalancı, but which is also certain name are Turkish also, we have a lot of sweet, helva which is also used by Turks and Arabs also. So very similar.
50:53
JK: Would you– what kind of foods would you– or traditions did you have during Armenian Christmas or Easter– Armenian Easter?
51:04
NK: Well, uh, Armenian Easter– we have– we color eggs and then we have Armenian bread which we call çörek which is kind of like braided, nice Armenian bread. We have that and also we have lamb dinner and some rice, things like that.
51:37
JK: Do you ever play the egg game?
51:39
NK: Yes, and after church services has an Armenian tradition. We get together and play some egg that we colored before and we play the egg with each other and then eat some Armenian çörek and celebrate the Easter.
52:07
JK: So, in Armenian, your last name says what you did. What does Kabakian?
52:21
NK: It is, uh, mean ‘kabak’ means pumpkin in Turkish so that is how they call the Kabakian that is our name is from.
52:38
JK: So did your family who lived in Armenia or Turkey, they sold– worked on a pumpkin farm or sold–
52:46
NK: Yes, they had a lot of– in Armenia, my great grandfathers they had land and they had vineyards. That is why they called them ‘kabak’, because they had, I guess, pumpkins and– on their land.
53:11
JK: What about from your mom’s side?
53:13
NK: My mom’s side, her name is Kashukjian [Kaşıkçıyan, Turkish version] I think it is– what its mean is they used to make silver spoons so when they refer about them they meant the family who builds– makes those silver spooks that is what it means kaşık, Kaşıkçıyan that is what it means I think in Turkey.
53:45
JK: What about– the same in Armenian?
53:48
NK: Spoon in Armenian is trgal this is in Turkish; I think it means the person who makes the silver spoons.
54:03
JK: So did the Armenian words– were they similar to Turkish words?
54:10
NK: No, it is because they lived in–– my grandfather on my mom’s side lived in Bursa and they, they had to speak in Turkish and that was how they called them the person who makes the spoons and I– that is why they call them Kaşıkçıyan.
54:44
JK: So how old were you when you got married?
54:48
NK: I was twenty-seven years old.
54:51
JK: And did you– is your husband an Armenian?
54:55
NK: Yes, he is.
54:56
JK: Is he a hund– are you a 100 percent Armenian?
54:58
NK: Yes, I a 100 percent Armenian.
55:01
NK: And your husband?
55:02
JK: He is a 100 percent Armenian.
55:05
NK: And how do you feel about marrying an Armenian? Did you want to marry Armenian– or did it matter?
55:12
JK: Yes, as I said in my family, we were stronger believer to, to meet Armenian and get married Armenian because of all our grandparents and great grandparents went through to, uh, keep our culture our race alive and we– the least we can, uh, do if we meet Armenian and marry an Armenian for our–keep our heritage.
55:50
NK: Did your parents want you to marry Armenian?
55:53
JK: Of course, but it was our choice but, uh, it was up to us.
56:00
NK: Did your ̶ other brothers and sister, did they marry Armenians as well?
56:07
JK: Um, one brother and– who lives in France, married a French but my other brothers and sister married an Armenian.
56:17
JK: Now did they still have Armenian culture in their–
56:22
NK: Yes, they–
56:23
JK: –household.
56:24
NK: –my brother who lives in France, they try to keep Armenian culture and they sometime make Armenian food and invite their friends and introduce them to Armenian food and talk about the Armenian history and they and also their names are one hundred percent Armenian also.
56:53
JK: Now, how important would you say was it to teach Armenian culture to your children?
57:02
NK: It was important, but this– in Binghamton we do not have any Armenian school, we have a small Armenian church and when my kids were young, we always went to– and took them to Sunday schools so they learned some Armenian song and also some Armenian dance and, uh, we used to have every year Armenian dance and we tried to take them so they see how it was, the Armenian culture. We have very small Armenian community in Binghamton.
57:46
JK: Was it hard switching from Montreal which has a lot of Armenian population to Binghamton which has very little–
57:55
NK: Yes, it was hard to adjust, you know, because it was very small Armenian community. But we tried to go sometimes in bigger cities, New Jersey, and Philadelphia and also California there is a lot of large Armenian community.
58:22
JK: Well what made you want to move to Binghamton?
58:27
NK: My husband’s job was here and we met in New Jersey, like I said, in Armenian church and, um, and we, because his job was here so we moved here after we got married in New Jersey we moved to Binghamton.
58:49
JK: So, growing up in Binghamton, have you seen any strong Armenian community or not so much?
59:02
NK: They try, uh, to, uh, keep the Armenian culture and community but it is hard, they need a lot of help. A lot of people are from here– a lot of Armenians, but they all moved and there is not a lot of younger people in this community. A lot of the Armenians moved for– out of this area to the city.
59:47
JK: So do any of your children speak Armenian?
59:52
NK: Yes, my oldest daughter and my two daughters they speak but my son does not speak that well.
1:00:05
JK: So they two –can you name your children?
1:00:08
NK: My oldest, Melanie, second oldest, Jackie, and my youngest is Henry.
1:00:21
JK: So, how come none of them has learned Armenian in Armenian school properly? Like at writing–
1:00:33
NK: Because, uh, we– I could teach them but I– they–there is no Armenian school near us, also they do not have any Armenian Sunday school anymore and also they outgrew, it was for young, young children. And, uh, we have church services every two weeks in our Armenian church. And like it is a very small community.
1:01:13
JK: So, did– do your family in Montreal or North Jersey, do they know Armenian, their children?
1:01:20
NK: Yes, all of my nieces and nephews they write and speak Armenian and one of my niece attends Armenian school and she is going to graduate this year. So yeah, they all speak and write in Armenian.
1:01:46
JK: Were you upset that– did you want your children to learn Armenian?
1:01:52
NK: Yes, we speak Armenian but I can always teach them if they are interested to write also in Armenian and, of course, we do not have that advantage here because we do not have Armenian schools or classes at Binghamton University that they can take. Other universities, they offer Armenian lessons and– but Binghamton University do not provide Armenian language.
1:02:32
JK: How would you describe the culture of the home– household spreading Armenian ideas and things like that? What things have remained constant? Like growing up compared–
1:02:53
NK: We always tried to speak a little bit of Armenian in our household and always sang some Armenian songs and talked about our flag, what it means, different things we always talked about and, uh, we liked to watch different TV shows sometimes that has Armenian articles in it. We are always interested in our culture.
1:03:33
JK: So have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? Back to where your father was born?
1:03:40
NK: Uh, no, no. I have not but my sister’s daughters, they been to Armenia and Turkey also my brother’s daughter been to Armenia recently and, uh, we always ask questions and see the pictures– we are so interested and we like to go one day, visit our homeland.
1:04:11
JK: So you want to go to Armenia someday?
1:04:13
NK: Yes, it is a dream to go Armenia and visit our land and see our churches and to see all of that. It is very important.
1:04:28
JK: So, right now, do you attend church regularly?
1:04:35
NK: On major holidays I try to go, last time I was at church was during Easter. I– it is hard with the busy schedule but I used to go more often than I am right now.
1:04:55
JK: Would you say that you identify as– what would you say that you would identify as your homeland?
1:05:05
NK: It is a– I– it is where my ancestor were. It is–I like to see.
1:05:13
JK: Which country?
1:05:15
NK: My– I consider Armenia my country– my roots– because my roots are from there and I always want to visit and see.
1:05:28
JK: So, how do you view the diaspora? Diaspora. The Armenians in the, the United States.
1:05:45
NK: Um, they are a– they are, they are Armenians that survive and they try to keep the culture alive–they are– it is not easy, uh, being Armenian. It is, it is always we got to remind our self what our ancestor went through for us to be, to have better life here in United States. Their sacrifice a lot for us. What we could do is remember and, uh, keep our culture alive.
1:06:26
JK: So do you think it has its own identity here in the United States or in Montreal compared to Armenia?
1:06:33
NK: Yes, to– of course. We are Armenians but we are not living in Armenia, we are living outside of Armenia and there are differences between us but we are all Armenians, were united. That is what counts.
1:06:56
JK: So how would you identify yourself?
1:07:01
NK: Uh, Armenian, um, that I want to remember where my ancestor came from and keep our tradition alive and our language– use our language and always remember our history and what we went through to be here today.
1:07:28
JK: Would you also identify yourself as Canadian, American, like Armenian first or–
1:07:37
NK: I am Armenian first but I do not forget where I was born and then where I grew up in Canada and–and then I moved to United States. I am a person of multi-culture. [laughs]
1:07:57
JK: Which, uh, country do you think has the strongest sense of Armenian pride? And culture? That you have lived in?
1:08:22
NK: The Armenians in Lebanon. Very, very strong. Also in Canada.
1:08:28
JK: And why do you say that?
1:08:25
NK: Oh, because as– I remember as a– growing up in Lebanon, uh, we– they always talk about the Armenian history how we survive and wherever we go we built our churches and we built, uh– and we stay together and there were strong believer so as a young child I remember how important it was to keep our culture in Lebanon especially.
1:09:00
JK: Was it important for your children to be raised in an Armenian orthodox?
1:09:07
NK: Yes, it is important but it is hard when you do not have a big Armenian community.
1:09:21
JK: Was there anything in, uh, your house that represents Armenian and where you co– come from?
1:09:30
NK: We had a lot of books and my father had lots of books and, um, always pictures and– of our history and we always read and sang the Armenian songs and, uh, we had a lot of poems that we read about how the Armenians survived and, uh, we always, uh, you know, enjoyed our rich culture.
1:10:06
JK: Do you remember any of the poems or songs?
1:10:09
NK: Yes, as– we had a nice Armenian poem– it was always said wherever we go, wherever happens we always built the Armenian Church and Armenian community. No matter how hard they try to erase us from out– this planet we always come– get together, survive and, uh, that was a very strong Armenian poem we always read and remembered.
1:10:43
JK: Do you remember who it was by? Who said it?
1:10:52
NK: I, uh, I do not remember right now but I [laughs] I just cannot recall but it is a famous writer.
1:11:10
JK: So [clears throat] do you have anything else– other than the poems or books or songs like paintings?
1:11:18
NK: Oh yes we have a paintings of Mount Masis and Mount Ararat from our Armenian land, its beautiful pictures and paintings, uh, uh, so when we have a exhibition I enjoy going and looking at those paintings those– we have a lot of Armenian paintings of churches on top of the mountains. We have a lot of beautiful paintings in Armenian history– in Armenia.
1:12:00
JK: So do you think Christianity is an important part of being Armenian?
1:12:05
NK: Yes, because we were the first nation to accept Christianity and, uh, we sacrifice so much to become a Ar– Armenian Christian and it is very unique and our–we celebrate January six as Armenian Christmas and its very old fashion. It is very unique with Christianity.
1:12:44
JK: Do you think it is important for your children to marry Armenians?
1:12:47
NK: Of course, it is their choice as well of course it is important to keep our culture going, our Christianity.
1:13:06
JK: So, do you have anything else to add–or? I think I am all set.
1:13:12
NK: Well just to say Armenians, we, uh, we are a survivors and wherever we go, we get together and we do not forget our language and where we came from and it is not easy to be Armenian but I am very be proud Armenian and speak our Armenian language and culture. I am very proud to be Armenian.
1:13:44
JK: Okay thank you.
1:13:48
NK: You are welcome.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Nora Kachadourian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
4/25/2017
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Virginia Terell
Duration
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53:19
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Virgina was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian/Turkish parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member in the Women's Guild at her Church. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":31489,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11,"17":0}">Virginia was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member of the Women's Guild at her Church. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Virginia Terrell
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 25 April 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s special collection library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is April twenty-fifth, two-twenty seventeen. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:16
VT: My name is Virginia. Last name is Terrell. T, as in Thomas, E-R-R-E-L-L. My maiden name, is a true Armenian name Mangurian which is spelled M-A-N-G-U-R-I-A-N. The daughter of Robert and Marcy Mangurian.
0:39
JK: Thank you. And where were you born?
0:42
VT: Here in the city of Binghamton, New York at Lourdes Hospital.
0:46
JK: And were your parents born in the United States or–
0:51
VT: No. My dad was in–oh– Hadjin [Haçin in Turkish], Armenia. And my mo– and he was born in 1905. No, that was my mother, he was 1889, (18)88 or (18)89. Something like that. My mother was born in Izmir, Turkey. And she was born in 1905.
1:16
JK: And what were– what was the reasoning for coming to the United States?
1:23
VT: Truthfully, I was only eleven years old when my dad died and my brother was only thirteen so I really cannot answer that other than just from what I heard from a couple stories from my mother, okay, after my dad died, okay, that they probably were escaping the genocide. Okay? I mean, that is all I can say, you know? Because, now do you want me to go into the story of the genocide? Okay, how we came–my parents never would talk about it to this day, I never heard my mother talk about my immediate grandparents, my mother’s mother and dad, nothing, not a word. Okay, the same thing with my father other than I–we were able to find out what their names were okay, my dad’s mother was a Sonalian okay, Katherine Sonalian and my–my grandfather, my father’s father was very (indistinct) Armenian, okay and I am sure that is why my brother was named Garry. Later on and my mother only had the one sister, there was just the two of them, but she always talked about her grandmother and she always had the fear of being blind because my grandmother, now I am assuming it was my mother’s, mother’s mother, you know, but do not ask me about her name or anything she would just say she was totally blind and she raised me so I do not know the story behind that, she just would not talk about it. But with my dad when I was born, and I was brought home from Lourdes hospital and I was ba–I am assuming that maybe it was after I was baptized and I was brought home from the hospital and I know I was baptized here locally in the Armenian Church here on Corbett Ave as Repega. Now I do not know how you say that in Armenian to be truthfully I do not know. But I do have the solution that, you know, birth certificates and everything with the Armenian priest that I was bap– I am sure they got re– in fact, I do not know if they have got records of that in the Armenian Church. Ralph had talked about– do they have a record of all the families actually were–
3:46
JK: Maybe, I am not sure.
3:48
VT: I do not– I have never seen it. So I do not know if they ever tried to keep records to be truthful with you. But I, I apparently was baptized Repega Mangur–Mangurian and my mother always said that this is why I thought I was baptized Virginia– no– you were baptized Rebecca then I found the paper she gave me, okay. She said that when I was brought home my father would hold on to me he would do nothing but cry because he would think about his younger sister you know that was murdered and raped by the Ottoman Turks.
4:25
JK: And this is as they were trying to leave?
4:29
VT: I am assuming, I do not know when he came to this country I have got to dig out some papers. I got a whole big box that my brother gave me which maybe he had all the records I do not know. Okay. But because I know Gary gave me their– they got married in 1926 with my mother was a fixed marriage in Connecticut. Because how my mother got here is by my uncle in Connecticut went back to Europe to get a wife and I guess it was arranged for him to have the oldest sister, which was my aunt Mary, was eighteen and my mother was sixteen. And – but the only way he could get married was he had to bring my mother. And, so she came over and she lived with them in Connecticut and somehow or other, my Uncle Harry knew about my dad [laughs] because they got married at [inaudible] It was all– you know they were all pre-arranged. Now how they even ended up in Binghamton, my dad was here he was already established so I think in those cases I think the family– they came. In fact we even talked about it now with all this immigration thing. Do you think they came to the United States– we do not know? But you know I think in those days a lot of uh just talking to some other Armenians their names were changed because they did not even know how to spell their last names okay we got my mother’s Dokmejian but we have gotten it spelled two different ways, you know. So, and I am sure you know I, uh, I know I spoke to her family, their, their name I do not want to put it on there because I uh there is [inaudible] her dad and being an ownership but that that that is not an Armenian name so it was, uh, large, uh, longer and they shortened it and oh nobody knows. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, and–and you just assumed it but it has the I-A-N that is definitely an Armenian name. [laughs] [inaudible] But, uh, so that was the story of that but my dad so we just assuming he saw a lot and he fled over here.
6:39
JK: And he never said anything.
6:40
VT: Never spoke. He never– none of them did. Not one of them. Okay, I do not ever hear them make– you know, talk about it or any– you know. No. You know, I think later in life I think we would have liked to pump I think my brother was [inaudible] very more Armenian than I am to be truth with you, okay. You know because he collected a lot of Armenian things. In fact, he donated a great big Armenian picture it is in the church hall. That frame, I loved the frame more than I liked the picture. Because I do not understand the picture but you know. Oh my brother you know my brother used to be a funny [inaudible] when we were kids, yeah. You know, so you know, later in life you break away from that, you know. And uh, uh, unfortunately, you know, but you know and I am not saying you know down deep in my heart I, I am an Armenian. I mean otherwise I would not even. I, I need to see that early because I wanted, I thought maybe I could get some information about it. Everything I saw there in the books that I read that I got home, well, they are, they are, they are more thorough than the movie. The movie very tried to make it [inaudible] you know, not as bad, but–
7:52
JK: –It is harsh.
7:53
VT: I, I, I got a little emotional you know because I got thinking did they go through all that, you know, because I remember my mother saying now that started basically in casto [inaudible] in the movie, 1914 for the actual slaughtering of the Armenians was 1915. They did kill some but it did not start in past [inaudible] where they were–
8:16
JK: I believe it did, it was how it was depicted in the movie.
8:20
VT: Oh.
8:20
JK: Oh, but I believe it did. They started killing the, um, the researchers and like doctors and uh intel–more intelligent.
8:33
VT: –More intelligent Armenians.
8:34
JK: Yeah, and then it started spreading to uh other parts of Turkey and then.
8:40
VT: It moved to, to little villages. And actually that is where they start with that young couple, you know.
8:45
JK: Is that where your family is– your parents are from little villages?
8:49
VT: I am assuming they were little village you know, I do not know how big Izmir was in those days or Hadjin?
8:57
JK: So they never talked about how, like growing up as a child or, nothing? Wow.
9:03
VT: But they must have known one another because the Kradjians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible] were Hadjinsi–The Rejebians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible]. I do not know if [inaudible] were but Mr.[inaudible] was Hadjinsi. And that is maybe–maybe that is how they moved them here. Leave their, their cities and you know, because my father was a Hadjinsi, okay, and that night I cannot remember what the Kachadourians were. If they were Armenian.
9:33
JK: There is Hadjinsi and Kharputian.
9:36
VT: Okay, okay.
9:38
JK: I ̶ there is two things I do not know.
9:40
VT: Now I know Adrian’s mother I found out was from Izmir Turkey. Where my mother was from.
9:47
JK: Oh, that is interesting.
9:49
VT: Yeah, we found that out later on when I think it was when, well after they were married. Adrian and, and Art. But I guess Adrian brought her mother to Binghamton there later in life. And come to find out okay, now she was like she probably could tell you a lot.
10:03
JK: Oh, yeah.
10:04
VT: Yeah. But how I found out about my mother is, uh, and I was out of high school, I was working at the bank. I was not working at Links. My first job was in the middle of the teller at our school. And so that has got to be in the (19)50s. And, uh, my brother got married. So it is just me, mom, the house the [inaudible] Street and my mother was taking a bath, you know, and she was very independent, you know, independent and that, that I know that when she was calling me, and she always had the accent, “Jenny”. You know like that. You know, and I went, I said “What is wrong mom?” She said I cannot, my back is itchy at one spot and I cannot seem to get to get the wash cloth on it and I need help. And when I try to move my arms, my arms are aching, okay. So I went in there and I saw the scar just below her shoulder. Okay. And I thought, mom, what did you do? Did you [inaudible], when did you get hurt you know? And she just, you know very nicely. She has told me it is a bombshell. I said is a what? You know. And that was when she told me. She and I said was does in Europe, the Turks. And I saw I said, I do not want to say it too loud. Okay. And she says no. And she told me it was English to British I said the British. What were you– why? She says I was with my grandmother okay. And I was taking care of– because she was totally blind in the cemetery hiding. Okay, but English– she said no– it was not their fault; they were coming to help us. And they were bombing.
11:46
JK: This is in Turkey or–
11:49
VT: It probably Izmir– I am assuming, I am assuming it would be in Izmir, Turkey. Yeah, Turkey. Right. Yeah. Okay, because that was where she was from. Okay, she, she's never been to Hadjin or anything. She met my father through my uncle Larry. [laughs] So that is how that, you know. And then she told me. You know. And she told oh me before that she, uh, was going to school in Izmir. Okay. And that one morn– I think I told you that, we filmed that– but one morning she got up and she told her grandmother, I do not want to go to school. And she fought and she got whipped. Because grandma got mad at her and said, you are going to go to school and she starts hitting her with–God– I do not know, whatever. You know, and she cried? She said no, no, no, and she just would not go. And I guess that was where she ended up in the cemetery but could not find the school that round. But she did not tell me if it was from–it was war. Because my mother later and he had a family that, well in fact, one son is, uh, is very close friends of Ara Kradjian and Naima. Helped Naima in her election. There was an Arzonian boy that used to live on Jefferson Avenue. And they were very close to my parents– well they were like maybe from here and other half a block away. Okay. And they were great. They had the two sons. And I used to go up there. I was a little pesky neighbor kid. Okay. But they took care of me. I mean they were, you know, fun. Okay. And the youngest son, you know he has been raised up, probably got kids, he is full grown now. But the young fellow, Jack was his name, we used to have a round porch of the [inaudible] Street and he would come down call my mother into everybody comes in an aunt, an uncle, on every spec, right? That was how I was brought up with all the Armenians whether we were related or not. Yeah, you are Auntie George, Auntie Alice, Auntie whatever okay? And, uh, Jack could not wait to get into the service. He went in the Air Force and my mother used to get mad at–“why?”–in her broken English. It is war is hell. No, you do not go. You do not know what it is, it is not all beautiful and all– why do these young men want to go to war? They do not realize. My mother used to say this since she would– saw the fear. Because that is all I got out of– she says they think it is all fun and joy. She says, she says they do not realize and this is what my mother used to say this is– what the United States need is to have a bomb hit here then they will know. It is terrible. They do not, they do not understand how. Yeah, yeah, that was– in her broken way you are trying to explain. Well he got killed. He got killed in another way. [Indistinct] She– they– the Armenians they sold their house they moved. Yeah. So I feel the young boy that is full grown now. He must have gone through hell. This fear– bomb went over there. Some of the other ladies try to go over there to help and she did not like nobody– she just, you know [indistinct].
14:58
JK: Yeah.
14:58
VT: So I mean, these are memories so terribly horrible. Yeah. Horrible, horrible. So I am, I am sure my parents saw enough but they did not talk about it. Yeah, you know.
15:10
JK: It is interesting. Some people are like that they do not talk about it and then others, feel the need to share.
15:16
VT: I think now, it is just the advice it gave me on life like, like the piece of release, these things, okay? I was a little surprised. I spoke to Henry about telling the– I had you mixed up you were his daughter, you know that. He went out laughing over, okay. No, that is my granddaughter. You know, you know. And so he was proud that you were doing it. You know, I said well did not she–you probably should be–you know everything Henry of all the family. So you might even know more about my parents that I ever would have known. Yeah. But your parents probably I have known your, your grandparent you know, your mom and dad especially your mom. She– that woman was smart. Yeah, basically, you know, she is the Empire. You know that, right? I will never forget when she passed away. They had a luncheon at the church. And, it was your dad that got up and spoke. I am pretty sure it was, yeah, because your dad, graduated with honors from BU [Binghamton University] too, he was high in his class. I remember going to that graduation because the, um, there was another. This is Josie Philips’ kid that graduated from there. That is why we went because of and, and, and young, uh, your dad was the number one in the class.
16:34
JK: Wow.
16:34
VT: Okay, I thought, what an honor, you know, and that was how many years ago– oh my God, I was not married then. You know, it has got to be way back in the (19)50s. Right, early (19)50s. No, maybe in the (19)40s. How old is your dad?
16:47
JK: Oh, no. My dad was born in 1964.
16:52
VT: Oh, (19)64. So I was not– oh I was married then. Okay, okay I am going to study what Phil. Yeah, I got married in (19)67. I would have never got married if I did not meet Phil. Well, then I was responsible for taking care of my mother, you know.
17:10
JK: Did going back to there a time in Arme–or Turkey in Armenia. I know, you did not say they did not tell much. But do they speak Armenian growing up–
17:20
VT: My, my mother spoke Armenian, Greek, Turkish, French.
17:30
JK: Wow and how did she learn all these?
17:32
VT: Because she said, you had– because you were surrounded by those people. You know, the population was like that. Okay. Because we have a Greek restaurant, The Olympia, here on Chenango Street. My mother used to take me to the Olympia because she got so– the first time we went there she found out it was a Greek– she did not know you know and we went in there and she got the, you know, and waitresses were our boss. He was, he was Greek so she– he so my mother understood I want to go to the Greek restaurant because I get she was talking to him in Greek. Yeah, yeah. Our foods are very familiar too, you know? Oh Yes. Yes. Now my dad, I could not tell you–the only thing I could tell you about [laughs] my dad was a shoe man he had his own shop there on Main Street. Okay, which everybody knows. But he, he– my dad was very Americanized, too. Okay. But–
18:29
JK: After he came–
18:30
VT: Yeah, yeah, even when I was a little girl, I used to go with my mother. We would come downtown shopping or something and we always stop at the store, you know, and my dad would always, you know, tease me whatever, you know. Yeah. But my dad was very popular with the police people. Because they used to walk the beat and everything. So my dad always used to call him nothing but eşşek, which is jackass, right? Right?
18:57
JK: Yeah.
18:58
VT: Okay. Meanwhile, my dad, Mr. R G bought property up by Conklin, by the river, you know, they had their little they, they were in a full cottage they were– I could open type count like the canopy like you know with the picnic tables and you know their crappy was right next to our set and we always have parties like you won't believe like the Armenians whoever they wanted would come up there you know? Yeah, he had that for a long time until after dad died and it got the point Ari and I were getting too big for it, you know? Well I, I got– we used to swim in the river like crazy. That was where I learned how to swim until– the one time when I saw when a garter snake, I mean to me was a snake. I do not care what type it will come out of the water. I remember I would have nothing to do [laughs] with, with the river. I absolutely stayed away from the Susquehanna River. [laughs] Any algae which is just, you know all that. And, uh, what I was leading to– oh god– there was a couple Armenian families on Conklin Avenue too well anyway, that one day it was a Saturday– the Livings [inaudible] went up there for the weekends. Because it was not that far of a ride five, six miles, whatever. Okay. Oh, right here at the library. Right across the street from the library. And here, one of the stores probably were in there– used to be the old Giant market. Okay. And we were coming down Court Street to, to go down to Conklin. Okay. My mother pulled right from the store. Okay, motorcycle cop. We used to have motorcycle cops. Okay. And like I said, I am still eleven, twelve right? It was after my dad died. Okay, so I probably was around twelve or maybe the same year, I do not know. But I was small. My mother says we forgot the bread. Got to get the bread. So she pulled out. My mother had no, no license, no insurance. We found that later in life. She had broken English. Now she became a U.S. citizen. I could– I, I saw her– I, I got her papers I, I am pretty sure they were in that box, I probably should dig them out, maybe the dates would be better. I should have thought of that. I did not– Okay, well all I know is the cop came, you know? And mom rolled the window down because he tapped and he was– and he says “Ma'am, you cannot, cannot park here. It is illegal”. And my mother was trying– officer, I just need– I want my daughter go and get a loaf of bread. I need bread. I know it was bread. I always remember that. Yeah, and, “no got to move, got to move.” Okay. And I am sitting there very quiet because mom did not give me the money. You know, she had not given me the money and so he says no just move, move. Yeah. And my mother said turn around. She was handing me, the cop started to get his motorcycle going and the weather I cannot remember that but she turned around she still– and turns around she says “here go get the bread.” Okay. Oh no, do not get the bread and she ̶ I got to move, you know? And she is– he is definitely an eşşek, like that, you know? And I am giggling with the, the police officer turned right around the window was down. Says “Ma'am, what did you just say?” You know, and my mother says, well, I, uh, I spoke Ar– I do not know what she– I do not think she said Armenian she just said eşşek, yeah, he says there was only one person used to call me that– you are not Mrs. Mangurian, are you? Bob's wife, Bob Mangurian, you know? And my mother said well yes, oh what a wonderful guy he always called eşşek, okay and he says so he turn around he says he told me young, youngster, go get go get the bread for your mom. Okay? He says you get the bread stay–you are okay. Okay. He told my mother that he was sorry about my dad. You know, yeah and he took off. My mother turned around she was handing me the money she says, he is an eşşek. I will always remember that I love telling a story because it is so true. That she just thought, he, he was stupid in other words.
23:00
JK: He does not even know what it is, does he? That is funny, I am glad you said that. Um, so, how did–do– you do you know from your mom's side how they came to the United States?
23:10
VT: They came because of my Uncle Harry.
23:13
JK: Oh okay–
23:14
VT: He went over to get a life. And the only understanding he had to take my mother.
23:19
JK: And what about your father? Nothing?
23:22
VT: I do not know how he got here.
23:24
JK: Did you know if he had any siblings or anything?
23:27
VT: My si–oh my–his sister. My–my Uncle [inaudible] went to California. I always felt great because I had an Uncle Sam. They used to call him Sam you know.
23:39
JK: That is funny.
23:40
VT: Yeah. Yeah. And he sort of disowned me when I married the Irishman [laughs]. I just thought I would throw that in. I do not want that on that though. You just shut that off. Oh gee, you got to scratch, you can scratch some of that off. Okay. Yeah, you got to do that. [laughs]
23:56
JK: I will. Um, also, when you were– when growing up, did you– were you Americanized or more like Armenian?
24:04
VT: Oh no, no. I was, but not my brother and Harry Kradjians, they were very close do not ask Kradjians and my, my dad do not tell me how I, I have no idea– that is because they are probably Hadjinsis right? And we all lived down to a side right so we went to– it was called Little Avenue it is Horace Mann right now they are on the west side okay there by Rec Park and we because we,we lived right through the main entrance to the Rec Park so we just played in it going to school and coming back. Okay, so what had happened– this is Parsons from the Parsons funeral home look we were all the Armenians go. Yeah. My mother did not go there. My mother did not like Parsons at all. She says you are dead already but they are making you look deader, deader, deader, deader. She just– that– it is funny how nationalities were going to certain. You know my mother did like the old funeral home was better. They were across the street further down by Catholics Chapel down in that area. Okay, so Mrs. Parsons was the kindergarten teacher, Harry Kradjians and my brother did not speak English. Armenian. They always disrupted the class.
25:20
JK: They did?
25:21
VT: Yeah, they would be talking to each other and you know–so she ended up having the school call the parents. So my dad and Arthur Kradjians. Harry's father, Deron’s father, it was that same family– went to see Mrs. Parsons with the principal. And they got told that they are in this country and they have to teach the kids English. They were disrupting the class and they do not do this. You know, and they, they were– Mrs. Parsons was able to get somebody to teach them a little bit of English, okay?
25:57
JK: So they did not know any English?
26:00
VT: I think partly if they did it was very, very little but they– boys did nothing but talk Armenian all the time in class.
26:05
JK: This is your older brother?
26:07
VT: Perry’s the one that just died.
26:11
JK: Or he went away– he just– yeah he just passed away. I went to the fu–yes to the wake at Parsons. Okay? And, uh, yeah because Arthur Kradjian is their cousin’s Arthur’s father's cous–Kradjian Heigwick where Perry’s–uh, parents was Uncle Arthur and, uh, Esquir or whatever her name was, it was a funny name, okay. Alright now they worked on Highland Avenue. Okay, where Kradjians hit–
26:49
JK: Um, going back to your family life, uh, when you were younger. So were you more– do you think you were more Americanized or did you learn Armenian or–?
26:59
VT: I could never speech because I had a speech problem my brother was very good–fluent with it.
27:04
JK: Did you learn Armenian first or?
27:07
VT: I think we both did because that was all they talked about was Armenian. But I used to get mad later on after my dad died. We, we– Gary and I would get laughing because we had the one phone it was always down by the stand as we had– the upstairs, okay, by the window there. And my mother would be talking to somebody and you could understand the Ar ̶ I could understand Armenian, but I cannot speak it. My brother was both. We probably were not into it that heavy because we left. You know what I am saying? But after– not left the church but just left to social and about learning. So– and my mother never pushed on it. Later on, she did not. She was very Americanized, because her true friends were the neighbors. Oh, they were so good to my mother. You have no idea. The biggest mistake we did with my mother, start having problems health wise. And at that time we had doctors that came to the house. Dr. Nikibi lived right next to the Parsons funeral home, the original one. Okay, which was across the opposite way from where they–and my mother, uh, did the Armenian [speaks in Armenian] give me a moment. This happens to me and my doctor says it is normal. I do not think it is normal.
28:22
JK: It happens to me too do not worry.
28:24
VT: Oh, yeah, you people everybody was saying that and that should not be. Yes. Okay. But my, my brother was good because he was, he was upon the artery. He understood it more you know, I, I got so– I knew, you know, I could follow everything you know, I know what I love about the Armenian’s confessions compared– that is the only thing– the difference between the Catholic Church and the Armenian Church everything is exactly the same okay. I like Chris– maybe because our church is so small but when you have confession, he does it right there at the altar, right? He will say whoever wants to come up for communion have to come up for confession. And you have come up whoever wants– in the Armenian Church they kneel in front of the altar. And he says a prayer in Armenian right? Then he has to say I will pray for you to actually– your confession directly to God. And then you can have communion with the Catholic Church they do not do that. You go in and you talk to the priest privately in the little cubbyhole. Now sometimes when they like for Easter and everything, they twenty people– it is a muss at Easter time– they feel once a year, you know. But there were people that go every week. How can you confess on a weekly basis? I cannot remember the last time with confession. Probably before we–well you know, to get married I had to confess. What do I have to confess about? I fell in love with my future husband? But we did not live together [laughs] you know? I mean, it is stupid. I mean, you know, I do not feel I have done anything that drastically. You know. And I–and I think it is lenient, more lenient today because you see– I do not see people. It is the old timers that go to confession, I am an old timer but not– my generation was not like that.
30:11
JK: Yeah.
30:12
VT: So that is the only thing different with the Armenian Church and the, uh, Catholic Church.
30:19
JK: Did, uh, growing up, did you guys have Armenian food or any–
30:23
VT: –Oh my god definitely! I still do. That is what–
30:25
JK: Can you give any examples?
30:27
VT: That is, that is what I miss to no end. Now we used to have cooking classes at the Armenian Church. Oh, really? Yeah. And that dissolved. Well right now we were all old. Mardirossian. You know, Manish Oh my god. She's what? Ninety somewhat years old. She is, is she still driving?
30:42
JK: I have no idea.
30:43
VT: Louise keeps telling me she is still driving. I said I cannot believe that, at that old. She has got that car that does not even take, uh, gas. What does it take? It is that special type of gas. It is an old fashioned car.
30:54
JK: I have no idea.
30:55
VT: Oh god that car is probably worth money. It is an antique. [laughs] like her. She is the most sweetest–she, she knows her cooking. Yeah. Hey, I worked my fanny off at that church we used to make the Armenian baklava. The, uh, well there is a– the other one, the roll. I call all baklava–there is a different name for that. Okay. And we, we– that was our biggest fundraiser for women’s guild.
31:21
JK: Oh wow.
31:22
VT: Yeah, I, I, I know I worked my ass on that. Okay. But I used to get so mad and, uh, Dr. Garabedian, what is his name? Vahe ̶ was chairman of the Armenian Church, okay. Under– when I was person of women’s guild. Or chairperson– I do not think we called that– chairperson, okay. And he would tell me–he would always put in a big order because he will always give it to a lot of good American friends. Do you think– I used to fight this, go out and buy– go to Maine, spend ten, fifteen six–twenty bucks and get the covers, you know to put them in nicely in there. I mean these are cheap.
32:12
JK: That is funny.
32:14
VT: Uh, no, it is not funny. It is, it is disgusting. Yeah. Okay, I used to get so mad over there. My god, come on! You know? You know? So I used to– he would tell me he has said is there any way you could do, you know. I said do not worry about it, I said, I buy my own and I would take them in and do nice little you know. You know, come on, you know. I mean we, we want to try to and I, I did the same thing with me I always brought– my brother. I always, you know, you know a lot people did not want to syrup on, they liked to have it separated. You know, there's nothing wrong. Well, a little– bring a jar.
32:53
JK: Yeah, yeah.
32:53
VT: Yeah, they tell you to bring a jar in. If you want. There were little things that–but I put up with it. That I did not like, you know, I fought, I fought like crazy. I love working with Vahe because Vahe knew he needed a new refrigerator real bad. Where they feel that oh you are going to get this fix or that– well freezer or whatever and, you know, I say Vahe, cannot we do something? Can we get maybe fifty-fifty if women’s guild could come up with say if the refrigerator costs one hundred, uh five hundred, if we came up with two fifty the stu– you know the church will because basically we were always given– we always try to give every year a thousand dollars I remember that when I was treasurer. One thousand dollars church to church. So this year, we are now at maybe seven fifty or stuff like, you know, why cannot we do that? You know? It was easy to fund, they had the money. They would not spend money. You know, but now I guess they are I have not been since they put the air conditioning in there. The day in the church hall or something?
33:56
JK: Yeah and they got a new dishwasher.
33:58
VT: They got a new dishwasher?
34:00
JK: Yeah.
VT: Oh I have– my old microwave is still there. [laughs]
34:00
JK: Did you go to church um–
34:05
VT: When I was little– oh, yeah, loyally. Until we got to the age probably right after my dad died. You know, maybe a few years later.
34:14
JK: Okay.
34:14
VT: Oh, they used to have some nice family parties at church.
34:17
JK: So they– were there– were there a lot of Armenians in the community at– when you were growing up?
34:22
VT: Well we were all kids.
34:24
JK: Oh yeah.
34:25
JK: That was the generation. The older I got– you know my parents my mother was alive a lot of couples were alive, okay. And–and they would have Syracuse would come down. There, there were. Yeah. Oh, I–you know, but then when my generation started growing up, they were the ones that were leaving. Some stayed, a lot of them did not. Okay. A lot of them just left. You know, I know Harry dear on and now half the time they would come to church. They were here, but–they just broke away because– it just got away from them, you know? You know. I think he just got away from because you know darn well, uh, people just did not get along. And I came–to me I used to come home– it got to the point where women’s guild I– and I, I hit, oh, Louise used to get so mad at me she, she is a die hard, I will tell you that, that I will support Louise to this day. She loves that church and her– and her mother was really strong about teaching those kids your dad– they know a lot. Okay. And, uh, but there is your difference. Maybe my brother and I used to say that– I wonder if things would have been different if dad was alive. Because he was a strict Armenian too. But my mother lost it. You know, because not only that– they, they disowned my mother too. My brother was very bitter. He got– he picked it right up. Okay, because he ended up having to be full charge, as a man, you know, he grew up fast more so than I did. Okay. And what had happened is my brother– my– the men– my mother was a widower. They just shoved her aside. Please no, she said yeah, they do that. That is the Armenian way because there’s no man in the house. Okay?
36:10
JK: So–
36:10
VT: My mother ̶ we entertain almost every weekend there was somebody at our house because I– my job is to serve the fruit. Fruit. Fruit. And sit like a [speaks Armenian]. You know, right? Okay. Yeah.
36:22
JK: So, growing up did you guys– it was very prominent the father figure was more in charge than–
36:31
VT: Yes.
36:31
JK: –The mother.
36:33
VT: My mother never– she did not know the day when my dad died. Mom did not know where the money was coming from my dad had investments. That was what my mother looked at everybody thought we were rich. Not really, my mother was– all the years she sold the properties for– my mother never worked in her life. Okay.
36:53
JK: That is– yeah, that seems, uh, the norms for Armenian culture.
36:59
VT: Oh, really? Okay, yeah. She wore black like you will not believe, you know all that, you know.
37:07
JK: Did they– did either of them go to school or college or anything?
37:12
VT: Could not leave my mother. My brother got married real quick. You know, my sister while she was non Armenian. My mother broke into that because my cousin Alice out in Connecticut. I got really raised a lot in Connecticut, too. When I was little. Okay, because like my aunt married. If she was here, my mother used to say, her sister. That was her sister. Okay, she is– all she is good for is to have babies. She–terrible cook terrible housekeeper, but she loved having babies. [laughs] My mother used to say in her broken– you had to listen to the broken English¬– laughing over it.
37:48
JK: Did she ever– so she learned English coming over here.
37:50
VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, she was surrounded by–
37:53
JK: Of course, yeah.
37:54
VT: The neighborhood and they loved– my mother cooked a lot. You know, and they love– oh, they were very good to my mother. Until you know, to this day, that is all they talk– they were very good to me when I got married, my brother. Yeah. You know, very cool–and that was, that was what I was telling you and I forgot the Dr. McKibbin, living next door to the Parsons she, he was a doctor that came to the house, which you do not have that today. It is going way back. Okay because my dad died in (19)44, 1944. So, Dr. uh– my– something about Dr. McKibbin you know, I keep forgetting that again come into the house. So here we go safely, that one to tell us so it could not be that important to tell. But I thought it was and I cannot remember what this was supposed to be about.
38:49
JK: Oh, um, talking about. Now I cannot remember.
38:52
VT: Yes, when my aunt married, my aunt married, had five kids but she also had two or three she had–she had a stillborn baby that died and then two other miscarriages. So my cousin, so when she died, my father told my mother, Martha, you need to go to Connecticut. Gary needs your help. If you hit the five kids, you know, and Marty was just going into his senior year. He, he was a nice serg– in Rhode– at Providence, Rhode Island. Okay. But I mean, they were from Bridgeport, Connecticut at that time. Okay. The one boy and the three girls– four girls. Okay. So my mother used to take me up there by car and she would stay for a while then she come home. Okay. And, but then to the old Phoebe Snow train every summer. School is out for two months. Yeah, right to Connecticut. Okay, so it was actually my mother and my brother stayed home. My mother would not leave. She felt she could not get rid of the house. That was Bob's house, you know, her husband’s and that means she just was not going to give it up. She felt that was her place. And she– now if she was here today she tell you too– because later in life, she was used say I made a very bad mistake. I had opportunity to get remarried. And she felt, just told them no. Okay, and she says, I probably should– I would have made it– life a lot easier for you and your brother. And probably for me too, but she just felt at that time. No. Then she got to the point she thought she was getting too old to get married. She died young. She was only fifty-eight years old when my mother died. There was a big age difference between them too.
40:34
JK: That is interesting.
40:35
VT: Yeah.
40:35
JK: Um, growing up did you guys celebrate as a family Armenian Christmas or–
40:39
VT: We did both.
40:40
JK: Oh both okay.
40:41
VT: We would go to the Armenian Church. Yeah.
40:43
JK: And did you go to the Armenian Church when they did have service or when you could?
40:47
VT: Yeah, I did not go to a Catholic or you know, when we did not have church the Kradjians who lived on Shore Street here on the west side, right down [inaudible] Boulevard. Yeah, you know, there is the Baptist church there. [laughs] So when we–they used to go over there for parties with the Kradjians, okay, and the Rejebian– all the Hadjincis, okay? They would send us kids from church to the Baptist Church. Oh, my god if my brother was alive here today I got to ask my sister I just think she still got– he won a Bible for perfect attendance.
41:25
JK: Oh my gosh that is funny.
41:26
VT: Yeah.
41:26
JK: That is funny.
41:28
VT: My mother was very strict about going to church she wanted us to go to church real bad whether it was a–
41:32
JK: The Armenian Church?
41:33
VT: Well, both. I think she was– she I think she understood about the Armenian Church because we got to the point she probably could not say anything because well we just said no, we were not going. We always went to the social stuff. You know, they used to have nice picnics. They used to go up to the Kradjians farm up there by State Park somewhere. They were great times. You see all that just dissolved because you do not get the help or you do not get the cooperation among the people because they fight. I hate to say it, you know, that is what turn my– that was what turned me off. You know, down deep I feel very strongly, you know, like I told Louisa when she called me last year she's I paid for your dues I said I will give it to you the money no, no, no she said I did it the year before too and I said Louise, why? Then Adrian, your Aunt, called because you know they do not get along. You know that, right? Okay. You know, in those days they never took measurements.
42:30
JK: They just–
42:31
VT: No, my mother used to throw me out of the kitchen. You know? Okay. And my cousins in Connecticut when they used to come down they always called her mom too, they grew up with my, my mother took right over here, you know, when they were up there. And they would say mom wait we got to measure that [laughs] and my cousin is try to write that down the recipe. Yeah, but the cooking classes went real nice. So then all of a sudden it just dissolved. I do not know why, why. I honestly– I could not tell you why.
42:59
JK: Do you know how to cook Armenian food or something?
42:60
VT: I know how to do the pastry stuff, you know. Oh pilaf who–my–my grandkids make the pilaf. Oh, who does not love pilaf? My husband hated rice when he went–well he had it in the service. Okay. And the first time, uh, [inaudible] ‘s mother okay, made it. She–she was the cook she was good I do not if you ever knew her Mrs. Cutrone.
43:28
JK: Maybe, I am not sure.
43:29
VT: Okay, Sonic–Sominick, is that her name, Sominick?
43:32
JK: Maybe.
43:33
43:35
VT: Yeah. Okay. And well her–her brother is Hagop’s father–well Jackie's father. Was Mrs. Cutrone they were brother and sister. Okay. I am sure that–I am sure if you–you did not talk to Hagop at all?
43:48
JK: Uh, maybe Gregory did, I am not sure if I did. I do not think I did.
43:49
VT: OK, maybe I would think I– if I know Jackie is a hundred percent Armenian. Yeah. And he's good. He is a super kid, you know, I, I just feel bad that he never got married, you know, but he is still loyal to his mother. You know, and, oh, very I do not think she led a happy life either. You know, it was a hard life. Yeah. But I–I think, uh, he was a strange man. Let us put it that way. You know, but he was nice. He was always very good with my husband very nice to talk to my hu– I think because nobody else would talk to him [laughs] you know at church.
44:32
JK: Was it, um, growing up, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian or no?
44:35
VT: I, I said that if my dad was alive, I think so. Like I said, my uncle, Uncle Sam, Uncle Shahen, he passed away, okay. Out in California. When I called and told him, you know, that I, you know, it is good to get married. I think he just a minute it was– you were no longer a Mangurian. Slammed the phone down. Yeah, I got disowned. You know, I do not know him, in fact, I saw him maybe all my life maybe ten times maybe. You know, I know he came to Binghamton once, he wanted to– he was going to go to Europe to give himself a life, which he did. And I was– that was when I left the bank and I was working at links. Okay, and he wanted me to go to Europe with him. My mother told him very politely to go, be there alone. You are not going, you know. And you do not know, those days I respected my mother.
You know, I would have– I probably. I probably would have gone all expenses paid and everything. My mother just absolutely put her foot down, you know? And he came home. Yeah. My mother. Yeah. I, I think he wanted even to marry my mother after my dad died. My mother did not–could not stand him anyway. Yeah. No, she did not. You know, but I, I think things you know Gary, and I used to talk about that. Do you think things would have been different if dad was alive? And I, I think there– yeah, I do not know. I mean that was an answer that I will never know.
46:06
JK: Do you, um, yeah I guess, definitely. Do– growing– later on in life, did you raise your children more Armenian, or?
46:15
VT: My grandson wants to know more about Armenians than anything.
46:19
JK: Interesting.
46:20
VT: Oh, he did– yeah– he had to do a paper–write up about a paper about the Armenian genocide. I gave him a little. Yeah. They had the books that I had. Yeah. Yeah, he was very bright. He, he was right into it.
46:31
JK: So you did–
46:33
VT: And I just cannot get him to come here at a certain time to take him to the Armenian Church because I totally–I says if you want to hear him sing or hear him play the piano–he plays the piano really lovely.
46:47
JK: That is nice.
46:48
VT: Yes, yes. And he plays the cello.
46:51
JK: Oh, wow.
46:52
VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
46:53
JK: That is really nice.
46:54
VT: Yeah he– you know, I mean, that is something he is going to have for the rest of his life– you know, he–he has won a lot of honors for piano, you know. Last year when, uh, not last year but he was going into eleventh grade now, when they were moving up from middle school to high school from eighth to ninth, okay, at graduation– they did it just like a normal graduation honored, you know, the top forty kids. They had to have maintain, maintain an average of nine point eight something, okay? Yeah he is a perfect hundred. I hate to– I am bragging, I am sorry, I got the rights to do this and I am going to do it. Okay. He is’ very he is way over my head. I talked to him about my iPad. I cannot figure this out and he is talking–we are back. Grandma does not know– grandma what are you doing? I said I do not know it is just that–and he says grandma just stay put, I am going to go get my iPad we will go one by one. [laughs]
47:51
JK: That is funny.
47:54
VT: But he will talk to me about things that I do not even know what he is talking about it is way over my head and he will say grand–ok I am going oh uh huh, uh huh. He will say, you do not understand do you, grandma? He says no I do not, honey. You know, that is how– you got to tell me grandma. You know, you know? He is very, very brave.
48:11
JK: Do they know Armenian or ever– Or your children?
48:14
VT: He knows just a couple of words. But you know, I do not because I do not speak it.
48:18
JK: You do not speak it, only your brother, right?
48:20
VT: Yeah. Well, my brother passed away.
48:24
JK: Oh okay.
48:24
VT: Uncle Gary passed away. Yeah. Right. Right. I was very surprised because, basically, he ended up going to the Catholic Church. Okay. Which I cannot, you know, he did a lot for St. Cyril’s on Clinton Street, a lot, we all expected. But I was very surprised when my daughter– when my sister-in-law did the obituary, read it then she indicated to– about, you know, how proud he was to be an Armenian. And he always kept, yeah, he used to– him and, uh, the old mayor.
48:56
JK: Yeah.
48:57
VT: Okay. Well, it is a camel driver. He was a Lebanese. Okay, between him and my brother, they were trying to say, who had a better collection of camels. Because every time my brother went out and see a statue or something he– and he had history, pictures and books about Armenia, like, my brother was very engrossed in it. But he hated to go to the Armenian Church because he just felt my mother needed help after my dad died, and they just ignored her completely, you know, and that is just– and then he was told this is the Armenian way because there was no man in the house so they are not going to bother. And all the way that my mother used to feed them and do everything my dad and him that, you know, my brother took it very bitter. He was more bitter– I did not understand until later in life he's telling me this. And then– and then later in life, it did not mean crap to me anyway.
49:48
JK: Of course.
49:48
VT: You know, it did not matter.
49:50
JK: So finishing up, did– how would you describe yourself, um, like Armenian-American, American-Armenian, or–
49:59
VT: I think Armenian-America, you know, it, it is your blood. It is in there, it is in there. I could not wait–I saw that advertise on TV about that movie and I wanted to see it. And I got after Louise. Yeah, they did not know nothing about it, I kept calling Louise about it, you know and then she was calling, you know, everybody else in her family and they did not know, you know, that Aslan–and then she finally had Aslan call to see– you did go see– I said yes, Aslan go, it is worth the money. I said I wanted to go because I– as much as I knew about yeah, the walk, yeah we can read about it, but I guess I just thought maybe I get something more out of the movie. You know, and I felt– it, it got to me. Couple scenes there, it really got to me.
50:41
JK: I am sure.
50:42
VT: You know, you know, but, uh, but they had something on TV. I wanted the news channels. Okay. Yeah.
50:48
JK: Yesterday was the, uh–
50:49
VT: The, uh, the anniversary. Yeah, the twenty-fourth. Right. And whoever the reporter was, it was nat–national news, came out how is– this movie has brought it out.
51:00
JK: The Promise, yeah the movie.
51:02
VT: The mo– yeah, but they also said it was not that thorough to explain. It was more like a love story but it gave us a jiff of it. But it was not rated high, it was only two stars that is that much.
51:15
JK: Yeah. Apparently, some of the people against the movie rated it low– this is a controversial thing.
51:23
VT: It is a c–well, oh well, yeah. Well that is what– I think that is what bothered me after I saw the movie. Is this going to be an uproar? Is there going to be a lot of protesting on it because there is got to be a lot of Turks around here. Right. Now, see, now that is what I was brought up to. Do not hate a [indistinct]– at school. Fooling around, talking and everything but when she wanted– they wanted to get married. They got married in the Armenian Church. Her mo– his mother and father stood outside the door. They never walked into the church to see them get married. They heard it. They never saw them actually get married.
51:57
JK: That is crazy.
51:58
VT: Right hand to God, I am not making that up. When I saw that I thought well that is icing on the cake. My mother saw that I think that made her, you know, well because, because well Alice got married in Connecticut. Yeah. They you know, they got married in a Catholic church but the wedding reception was at the Armenian Church in Connecticut in Bridgeport. Okay? And my cousin Joe was a dear oh, he was–you know, he just won my mother over. Okay. And I think my mother really, at that point, she was so Americanized. You know she never wanted to go back to Europe my brother truck– tried to talk. We were going to go take a trip to, you know, he thought mom would like to go back. Had no decided this is my country. She used to say. She I, I think she just did not want to go see it. Yeah, she, you know, I do not know. She never would– never said. The only time I got anything out of her is when I went to wash her back. And I saw that. And she did not really get teary eyed. She just said it and that was the end of it, you know?
53:01
JK: That is interesting. That is very interesting. Thank you. Uh, was there anything else you would like to add that I–
53:05
VT: Not I talked too much. I do not know. I do not know if you needed facts and figures like, you know, I do not know. I do not care whether you use it or not, to be honest with you.
53:15
JK: All right, well thank you.
53:16
VT: I– oh– I like to hear what Louise had to say.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Virginia Terrell
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df580c70c1e526970e2d7b42d58e361e
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
1996-07-29
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Dr. Henry Franklin Graff
Language
english
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
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MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"War protesters; Robert F. Kennedy; Veterans; War injuries; Vietnam War; Media; Civil rights legislation; Empowerment; Healing; Vietnam Memorial; Baby boom generation; McCarthyism; Alcoholism; Generational gap; Lyndon B. Johnson; Trust."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4865,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">War protesters; Robert F. Kennedy; Veterans; War injuries; Vietnam War; Media; Civil rights legislation; Empowerment; Healing; Vietnam Memorial; Baby boom generation; McCarthyism; Alcoholism; Generational gap; Lyndon B. Johnson; Trust.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
02:04:59
Subject LCSH
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans
Biographical Text
Dr. Henry Franklin Graff is Professor Emeritus of History, specializes in the social and political history of the United States. He is the author of The Glorious Republic, and the editor of The Presidents: A Reference History, as well as several books and articles. Dr. Graff received his B.A. from the City College of New York, and his M.A. and Ph.D. in History from Columbia University.
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Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Henry Franklin Graff
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 29 July 1996
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM:
All right. Well thank you for participating in this project. The first question I would like to ask is, the boomer generation and the (19)60s and early (19)70s is being attacked as one of the reasons for the breakdown of American society. Could you respond to this criticism and comment on the period and its impact on present day America? Is the criticism fair? And when this criticism is often directed to the youth of the era, what can you say about the boomers of the (19)60s and early (19)70s?
HG:
Well, I think there is a change. I guess some people would label a that a breakdown. I see our generation as, it is not the cause of that, as much as we were in the wrong place at the wrong time here. We were the vehicle for much of that change. And when I think about the change today, one of the things I think about first is that the last time I read something, it was-was over 70 percent of women now work outside the home. That was not true of my parents' generation. When I think about the street I grew up on, most of the mothers were home all day with the families. The fathers went to work. And I think about how traditional and conservative my upbringing was, and actually I think about the year I went to Vietnam and when I came.
HG:
Think about the year I went to Vietnam and when I came home, it seemed like everything had changed in my absence, everything. And then I remember the late (19)60s and the (19)70s, and I do not know that I see our generation as having any responsibility for causing that. We certainly had responsibility for trying to cope with economic forces, and I think some shifting of values. Certainly our generation for whatever their purposes began to question basic values such as when your government asks for your help, you provide it without question.
SM:
You made an important point there that when you went to Vietnam and then when you came back. Now, were you there one year, two years?
HG:
I was in country 222 days, and then it was a month and a half in hospital in Vietnam and Japan before I could come home. So it was almost a year.
SM:
What were your feelings at that time toward the protestors before you went to Vietnam and then when you came back from Vietnam, those who were opposed to the war? Did you have any thoughts toward them at that juncture?
HG:
Not really. I mean, I enlisted in the Marine Corps and then I volunteered to go to Vietnam. I did not originally get orders for that. I was waiting to go to Officers Candidate School and then the Tet Offensive of (19)68 took place and I was sitting at Camp Lejeune in North Carolina. And at that point I was told that it might be another six months before everything was done and I could start Officer Candidate School. That would be six months. And then I would start a whole new enlistment as an officer for three years. And I just decided that, well, maybe I will go to Vietnam and see what that is like. And if I want to be an officer, I can always do that. So I resigned from the commissioning program and went over as an enlisted man. I thought it was a personal decision. I did not understand people who said no or even challenged the right of the government to ask for these sacrifices. I always felt that my father's generation and previous generations had sacrificed. That is why we had America. It required sacrifice and I did not question it, and my choice was to go and do what needed to be done without any questioning of that. I thought other people could make their choices. I did not feel they had to make same choices I did, and I never regretted my choice, and even as things have turned out.
SM:
Now, one of the two interesting politicians in that era are Senator Fulbright in his book Arrogance of Power, and I know that Dr. Benjamin Spock wrote a small book on Vietnam in 1968, basically talking about the Diem regime and basically condemning the government, not anybody who went over there, but the government and the leaders of America. And in both, not only in Arrogance of Power, but also in the commentary of Dr. Spock, it was the fact that those individuals who decided that they did not want to go to war and protested against the war were American patriots. That they were true patriots. Now they were not on the one hand condemning the Vietnam veterans who went over there, but they were saying that they looked upon those individuals as true American patriots even though they were being condemned on this side, especially in fighting Johnson and all the other eventually Nixon and so forth. What are your thoughts on Fulbright and Dr. Spock and those types of leaders who were making those kinds of commentaries? Was there some validity to that? Do you think that not only from your own perspective, but from the perspective of other Vietnam veterans, how did they look upon those leaders saying those types of things? And then of course, how did they look upon those people who protested, decided not to go when you said it was your duty to go just like your dad in World War II?
HG:
Well, many Vietnam veterans feel that anyone that did not take their place in the ranks would be anything but a patriot. As I said, I thought it was a personal decision, and I do believe there is times, I do not believe that you always accept the government version and that you do what the government asks. I think there is lots of opportunities for challenging and that sometimes to challenge the government does make one a patriot. It is a patriotic thing to do. I think about Desert Storm, certainly I was against the idea of sending a half million American troops over there when I believe that in the end it would turn into a ground war. I mean, the conventional wisdom was you could not win a campaign like that with an Air War, no matter how smart your bombs are, and that eventually American troops are going to have to close with the Iraqi troops and fight it out, and that is going to determine the outcome. And I was very upset at the idea, and I thought when that happened, there would be tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of casualties, and I did not feel that the stakes were worth it. And so I was against the idea of involvement in the Persian Gulf. So I guess I could be called a patriot of that era because I took a position that we should not be there. We certainly should not send our young men there. It is one thing to provide monetary support and arms to the other combatants. But why are we taking the lead? Why are we the first one there and why are we sending Americans? For cheap gas? I will pay $4 a gallon if it takes that.
SM:
If you knew then now about what was going on in Vietnam and how the leaders were, well, really not telling the whole truth about what was going on in Vietnam, how do you feel most of the Vietnam veterans would have felt? Of course, a lot of Vietnam veterans, Senator Kerry being one of them from Massachusetts, the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, when they came back, Bobby Mueller was involved in that group. He had another group he was involved in, but-
HG:
Jack Smith was one of the founders of that.
SM:
...He was, yeah. Well, do you think that you might have had a different point of view?
HG:
Well, when I came back, I had lots of opportunity. I spent years in and out of the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia, had lots of opportunities to think about the war per se. I mean, when you get there and I do not know how to say this, but when you get there it does not take long to realize it is a bad war. I mean, we are dying for what seems like nothing at that level, and you do not have the big picture. And in a real sense, it did not make any difference anyway. What mattered was surviving and making sure that your buddy survived. It did not matter what the war was all about. It did not matter if I was on the beaches of Normandy or Pusan perimeter or Vietnam or getting ready to go into Iraq. At that level it is really irrelevant.
SM:
Do you think the majority of the veterans, obviously you are saying now that at that juncture most want to survive, the bottom line is to survive, get through their year and get out of there.
HG:
Mortal combat.
SM:
But then when you come back, then that is when the thinking really starts in terms of what it was all about?
HG:
Well then you try to make sense of what has happened to you. You try to find some meaning in it. I was proud of what I did. I was proud of the men that I served with. Was I proud of what we were doing? Not particularly. I did not think it was a very good strategy. I certainly felt that the biggest losers of all were the Vietnamese people. I mean, they feared us and they feared the NVA and the VC. And all they wanted to do, and you could see it in their faces every day, all they wanted to do was scratch out a living, find something to eat that day to feed their family and try and avoid being killed by anybody, either by design or by accident. They were the biggest losers of all.
SM:
Getting back to that question regarding how Vietnam veterans felt when they came back and there was a division. Going to the wall, nowadays, I just tried to see the ambience of feelings of the people, and there is still tremendous dislike for those who oppose the war, at least this is my perception, and this is why I am trying to get some clarity on this from the people I am talking to, the 300 people, Vietnam veterans, people who protest the war, leaders, younger people today. Do you still feel, I know there is some that will never heal, but do you still feel that the majority of the Vietnam veterans are still against the people who oppose the war? Do you think there is still, because after all, when you look at the wall and the formation of the wall, this is getting to a question later on here, but that Jan Scruggs did such a tremendous job putting the wall together because it was supposed to be a non-political statement, it was supposed to state that we were going to pay tribute to those who gave their lives and also those who served, and also try to heal the veterans and give them recognition that they deserve and also try to heal the families. But when Jan wrote the book To Heal a Nation, it was my perception that it has helped the Vietnam veterans along, but I do not know what it is done totally, really for the nation. In terms of the boomer generation, which the Vietnam veterans are part of, and those who protested the war are, is there any healing there happening between those diverse groups?
HG:
Well, in my experiences I have seen what during the war was a division and I have seen those same people now 20, 30 years later and there is not a division. We have all moved on my mind now. I forgot what it was. There are some people who in trying to find meaning in what they have gone through, they have to use other people to create their own meaning. So on the one hand, there was the people who did not go, the people that went to Canada or Sweden or the people that marched against the war, even Vietnam veterans who came home and then protested against the war like Vietnam Veterans Against the War. And they need to use people like that in order to define themselves. I am not one of them. And I have always felt that, as I said, everyone had to make their own decision. I could not make any other decision than the one I made having been brought up the way I was brought up and having had the feelings I had about being an American and being able to grow up in this country and feeling from the start that I owed a responsibility to the country. And when it came time for that responsibility to be called upon, I was there. It was not dependent on whether or not I believed in the war, or whether or not I thought we had a good chance of winning or anything like that. And the nature of the war is what the resistance to it was all about, rather than the fact that our country has the right to become involved in war. I mean, it was the same thing with Desert Storm. For the first time, I was questioning whether or not the country had the right to get involved in that. Not that we should not have helped out Kuwait, but the degree of our involvement was simply due to the oil that was there. That was it. If it was some poor country somewhere that had nothing that we felt was important strategically, we would not have done that. I mean, little countries get overrun or annexed or cut off or whatever for a long time.
SM:
Question here, what has been the impact of the boomers on America? This is a general question beyond just the Vietnam veterans, but you are a boomer, and what do you feel has been the impact of boomers on America? Positive or negative? And I want to preface this question by saying, and I think I mentioned over the phone that we see today from the Christian coalition, an attack on the boomer generation constantly it is all the ills of society seem to stem back to that period. Breakup of the family, the divorce rate is on the rise, the drug culture, the counterculture, and of course we have a lot of drugs in generation X, lack of trust in leaders, lack of trust in politics, lack of trust in any kind of leaders, people not really voting. Boomers do not vote, and their kids do not vote. And it gets into a lot of different areas here. It is not just the Christian coalition. You hear it amongst a lot of the politicians today. There is the Republicans and even some Democrats who are trying to go middle of the road. And I know in all generations there are mistakes made, but is that a fair analysis? And what is your thought as a person who was a Vietnam veteran who was young at that time? You have gone on to become a professional psychologist. What are your perceptions? What are your perceptions of your generation, not only when you were young, but how has that evolved over the last 25 years? And how do you feel today about that generation, your generation?
HG:
Well, in the (19)60s and (19)70s, I felt a part of a generation that was defining itself. Again, it was talking about individuals who defined themselves as the opposite of other people that they can pick out. That is not a rebellion or a revolution. I mean, in the (19)60s and (19)70s, we were talking about revolution and we were going to change things. But if your revolution is that you are going to be the exact opposite of someone else, well, that is no revolution at all because your identity or what you are going to do or what you are going to believe in or what you are going to act on is really defined by the individual or the group that you have decided to be in opposition to. And I thought a lot of our early revolution was simply challenging the status quo and the morals and the values even around basic things like sexuality and the use of drugs for recreational purposes. Most of these people I know from my generation have mellowed out some more into the mainstream once they became people with careers and homes and mortgages and families and they paid taxes. And that our generation went through that shift, and then has become I think more alike. Now we are the middle-aged generation for the country and we have some responsibility. We have responsibility for the younger generation. And as time goes on, we take more and more responsibility for the older generation. We are now the power brokers. We are now the people that decide what happens. Clinton is president. I think the choice this fall between the class of (19)46 and Senator Doll and President Clinton who is a baby boomer, I mean, that is the choice that country's facing. I might happen to think that our generation has done right by the country, and I think we can lead the country and make the choices that we need to make to keep it true to its ideal.
SM:
So you are not one of those boomers who are advising this attack that all the ills of today's society are directly related to the boomers? And their counterculture and the way their rebellious dialogue, which do you see any linkage at all between the divisiveness of that era and what we see in the divisive today in terms of how we talk to each other, how we communicate with each other? In other words, a lot of times we do not talk. We shout at each other. We do not listen to each other. Do you think it is fair or is it depending on who you are, some will say it is ridiculous and some will say there is validity, but that all began back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Do you feel that way or could that be a part of-
HG:
I feel like when I was growing up, we did not talk to adults. As children the idea was you were there to be seen and not heard, and you did not sit at dinner table and talk to adults, even in school with your teachers. And I think there is one example of how there is more interaction. One of the things that I think our generation brought was more dialogue between different generations. I think you can look around and find examples of everything from McCarthyism and the Red Scare. I mean, was a better than in the 1950s? The use of recreational drugs was very uncommon, but the rate of alcoholism was much higher than it is today. And the per capita consumption of hard liquor in this country was probably eight times what it is today. Today, hardly anybody except the older generations drink hard liquor and even the distillers are having to branch out and get into other businesses because that is not the culture. But there was certainly alcoholism around and it destroyed families. I mean, we did not invent it. There was divorce around too. What was more common I think, in my parents' generation was to stay together no matter what, no matter how horrible it was, whether you said it was for the kids or just because I am not the kind of person that divorces. I deal with all kinds of pain and suffering in members of my generation who grew up in those kinds of toxic families where no one was going to leave. And these kids who are now adults do not know how to be in a relationship. They do not know how to relate. They do not even know who they are. And I see that as a consequence of growing up in the family where there was not any acknowledgement what was really going on there. Women did not have the ability to leave and be independent and take care of themselves. They were too dependent on their husbands, so they stayed no matter what. You can take any issue like that, and if you really look at it, see that in fact there was something just as awful or just as upsetting going on, but it only looks different on the surface.
SM:
One of the old slogans when I was in college was the IBM mentality. You ever see that old advertising where five people come out the front door with their hat on and their suit on, and they all drove the same car, had the same suit, and the wife kissed as they went away and everything, almost the house was identical. And there was a feeling of in the university, because it was called the multiversity in the late (19)60s, that we did not want to be carbon copies of what preceded us. And so there was kind of rebelliousness, and you raised some very good points about the fact that at the table rarely the parents talked to their kids. Certainly they stayed in marriages and they were not honest with their kids about the things that the kids saw them, but they just stayed on board. Linking back to the boomers, they probably wanted to be more honest and meet more open and to be critical at times, whereas their parents may not have been critical. And the question I want to get into this next question here is can today's generation of youth learn from the boomers? What can the boomers teach today's college students? This question is based on the fact that many of today's students often look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s as a period of activism, drugs, and single-minded issues. Dave Bolt mentioned that he thought they were simple-minded issues. Though many of the same issues remain there are new ones, and the lessons of the past are either not taught in schools today or never discussed between parent, the boomer parent, I mean the boomer itself, and today's kids, which is Generation X or slackers, another term that is used. Please give your thoughts on the issues in boomers lives and how they can have impact on students’ eyes today. This question came forth based on a couple conversations I had with a couple faculty members at West Chester University, one African American who is a dynamic professor and another is a majority professor. And both of them felt that they did not want to relate to their kids about what it was like when they were young because they have too many problems today. So why burden them with their parents' problems and what it was like? And I asked myself, wow, is this an example of how boomers are raising their kids? Are boomers talking about what it was like to be young, what it was like to be a Vietnam veteran, to share the experience with their sons or daughters? I have three students at West Chester. Two of them went to see Lewis Puller. Neither dad had ever talked to their son about Vietnam, and they learned about Vietnam through Lewis Puller. Now that is amazing. Neither parent would talk about it. They loved their dad, but they just would not open up. And then the other person was an African American who was about the civil rights movement, but she did not want to burden her kids with talking about that era when there are other problems today. The question is, can boomers share this experiences and are Generation X and slackers, do they want to learn? Do they want to listen to this? That is what I am trying to get at.
HG:
Well, I actually have not that much experience with today's generation. I mean, that says something. I mean, I will just stay with the example of the students that you had who had never talked to their fathers about being in Vietnam. That is not unusual at all, whether it is Vietnam or World War II or Korea. If you read Lewis Puller's book that his father did not talk to him about being in war. My father did not talk to me. I did not find out until after my father died and I was responsible for all the records. I did not really find out what exactly he did until I found his records and I was able to read those and then piece them together. And then I had some idea. He never talked to me about war before I went to war or after I went to war. And even at the end, I met a professor of mine, he was not a professor of mine but he was teaching and at my school, and he wrote his memoirs of being a fighter pilot in the South Pacific in World War II. And I bought it and read it and wondered, because my father was in the South Pacific in the Army Air Force, and I wondered if this was his experience. And I gave him the book to read and he read it. And the only comment he ever made was that the author had made a mistake with the model type of plane he was talking about, it was not a T-9, it was a T... And that was it. That was his whole reaction. And the reason I gave him the book was to see if maybe it would not spark some conversation about, well, gee Dad, what did you do in the war? And I never told him what I did in the war. So it is not unusual at all in my experience that-
SM:
Hey.
HG:
...That sons do not talk to their fathers, the warriors, whatever their wars. I think we could learn. I think today I would like to think that today's generation can learn from us and that they do not make the same mistakes. My goal has always been to make different mistakes than the ones that my father's generation or the other members of my generation made.
SM:
If you were to describe the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, please describe the qualities you most admire and then describe the qualities you least admire. You can use adjectives or what were the things about the boomer generation, that is people who were born, sometimes I hate using these parameters. People born between (19)46 and (19)64 are boomers when we all know that those born between (19)46 and say (19)58 are so different than those in the...
HG:
I was born in (19)47, and I do not have a lot that I would identify with someone who was born, well, actually, my wife was born in (19)60. She is 13 years younger than I am. And when we hear a music, I mean, I play oldies in the car on the radio, and I will say, "Did you ever hear that song? Do you remember that song?" A lot of times she will say, "No, I do not remember that song," or, "I do not remember that." Or we will watch something on TV and it is about something that happened in the (19)60s...
SM:
Okay.
HG:
Just say, "I do not remember that." And that was an important part of my life. I mean, when I was in Vietnam, she was eight years old. So not all boomers are the same. She does not even think of herself as a boomer.
SM:
She is post boomer probably. Post boomer, pre slacker. Tell her that. Well, if you were to give some adjectives to describe the boomers, the positive things, what would be the positives of the boomers?
HG:
I think our generation was committed to various visions of what America should be, and we took the initiative to try and bring about change. And I think we can take responsibility for a lot of things that have changed. And again, I think of getting women out of the house where their sole role in life is to have children and raise them. A friend of mine called women like that breeders. If you have the kids and you stay at home and you take care of them, and that is your whole life. Boy, I would not want to just have the family as my whole life. I would want to have the opportunity to be fulfilled in other ways. And I think women today, by and large, have opportunities and have options that they did not have in my mother's generation.
SM:
How about any negative qualities about the boomers?
HG:
I am not really used to thinking about us as separate and apart and different than the rest of the population. So I cannot think of any specific negative about us.
SM:
One of the comments, so again, I have not interviewed many people, but a few comments have come forth that the boomers are a very irresponsible group. Do you find that as a negative or-
SM:
Do you find that as a negative, or...
HG:
Well, it would be a negative, I would not say that, and I would not agree with it, but I do not know why someone else would say that.
SM:
I think they were prefacing it with the statement when they were out there protesting and/or some of those Boomers are the so-called elites. That is what they call 15 percent who are protesting the war, and found some sort of activism. They would just-
HG:
Every generation has its elites. America is more elitist than ever. The distribution of wealth is more disparate than ever. Now we are moving into a really very difficult time, when there really is a separation between important parts of the group. I know people who thought John Kerry was very elite because he had money, came from a money family, and he would go to rallies, but he would fly to them.
SM:
Oh, geez.
HG:
It is all on your perspective. The other guys in the Vietnam Veterans Against the War-
SM:
Hitchhike.
HG:
...who did not have money looked at him, or some of the big names now who were officers. It all depends on your perspective. I certainly would not think of our generation of irresponsible. If we are, then the country's in big trouble because right now we are carrying the economy and everything on our shoulders. Our parents' generation, we are going to be responsible for taking care of them, probably at our own expense, and to also take care of our children's generation, and our grandchildren's gen... Well, selling them down the pike like they have been sold down the pike already. I do not believe that that was our generation that is done that. Why you got a friend?
SM:
Hey, how are you?
HG:
That is Shadow.
SM:
You are going to be interview... Shadow, you will be interviewed next. You got to wait your turn, so be prepared. Okay, Shadow? Could you comment on the importance of the Boomers with respect to the Vietnam War itself?
HG:
We fought it.
SM:
You fought it.
HG:
Could not have had it without it.
SM:
There is a lot of historians and sociologists have stated that if it was not for the protestors, the war would never have ended. Do you find that there is validity in that statement?
HG:
Well, in the things that I have read, it was clear that it might have ended sooner without them because toward the end, there was a lot of concern about doing this in a way that politically did not look like they cannot win. I mean, I read that someone said to Johnson, and I think it was his Secretary of Defense, "Look, why do not we just bring all the troops home and say we won?" He was concerned how that would look, and certainly what I read suggested that Nixon was concerned about appearing to give in to these kids that were causing problems, and we cannot appear to let them run things. I think without them it might have been easier to fold our tents, and come home and call it a day. Certainly the war would have been, I mean it was going nowhere, and we did not really pursue, I mean we were not really fighting a war after (19)72. We had very few troops there, and they were advisors, and serving behind the scenes. They were no longer taking the Fed to the enemy. We did get out, is that what we do? And it was too expensive, and there was all kinds of reasons it would have ended.
SM:
Back in (19)64 Dr. Spark's book, and of course a lot of people know about this, that he made a commentary that we will never send during the (19)64 campaign, we will never send our boys to into China because that that is... the Asian boys will fight that war. Our boys will not fight it. Of course, that was a criticism of Goldwater too. They felt he was going to take our troops right over there. And then from 15,000 advisors when Kennedy was there, to the beginning of troops going over after Johnson went into the presidency. I guess, what I give back is a lot of Boomers at that period, from seeing what happened, and of course they feel that they are one of the main reasons for Lyndon Johnson leaving the- ... Not deciding to run in (19)68, because the people that were going to support McCarthy, and then Bobby Kennedy, and the protests, and he did ... Really would not have a shot at winning. It was tearing the nation apart, decided not to move on. During that era, from seeing the Robert McNamara's and Lyndon Johnson, and then Richard Nixon and then leading up to Watergate, there was this whole lack of trust on the part of many Boomers, certainly the 15 percent who were protesting. That is a term that a lot of people use. 85 percent were not involved in any kind of an activity but my thought has always been that maybe affecting the subconscious of the whole generation, so that there was no trust happening. No faith in leadership as Mayor Burns up in Binghamton, a close friend of Bobby Kennedy. Bobby Kennedy was our last hope. Even then, since that time there has really been no one that the nation could get behind in terms of trust and support, as an entire nation. What are your thoughts on this business regarding the concept of trust, and the lack of faith in our institutions? Because, if indeed there is a lack of trust, psychologist was saying, and you are one, I can remember reading in my psychology 101 book. Something about the fact that if you cannot trust then you may not succeed in life. There is a concept before you have got to trust someone, whether it be your parent, or somebody. You have got to have a concept of trust. And yet, if young people are being raised by not having faith in their leadership of the country, and they were not telling the truth about the war, the body counts, all these types of things that were coming back, and we saw it on television, because another person said we are like the TV generation, not the Boomer generation, the TV generation. That there is something within the Boomers about not trusting people. Do you think as a psychologist, not only as a person who works with Boomers as patients, but as a boomer yourself, that there is some validity to the fact that this generation more than any other in history, is a generation that does not trust, and thus, they are passing that on to their kids who are today's young people in college, and they themselves may not be able to trust? Is there some validity to that thought?
HG:
Well, I think part of maturing is moving from naive trust to informed trust, kind of learning to do your homework before you trust someone, whether it is an individual, or whether it is an institution. Part of maturing is learning the rules, and I say moving away from civics 101 to the way the world really works, that I can think about Desert Storm again, that we did not go in there because we were guests. That this big militaristic country had overrun this poor small democracy, and we wanted to go in there, and protect democracy from the tyranny of a dictator. Again, we went in there because it was in our best interest, if we are going to have oil that is easily available and cheap to run our economy. As you grow up, you learn who to trust. Sometimes, you learn it the easy way, and sometimes you learn it the hard way. I do not know that our generation has any more difficulty with trust. There was a concept when I was an undergraduate that came out of Neil Durkheim, who was a sociologist in the 1800s, and he wrote a book on suicide. He talked about a state of enemy when in culture there did not seem to be enough structure, things seemed to be in chaos. I can remember when I was younger reading that, and identifying with that. I bet today's generation is doing the same thing. They are reading about Durkheim's concept of enemy, and saying, "Yeah, that is us," but it cannot be that every generation feels, and some of the things I have read about my parents' generation coming out of the Depression, and you know, read The Grapes of Wrath, or you watch the movie, the messages that society is that society is not working right, there is no structure, it is every man for himself, blah-blah-blah. And then, World War II, the same major shift that an impact that had on the culture, and then the recovery, and then the Cold War. I think again, we are talking about if you look hard enough, none of these things originated with our generation, and I do not think our generation is overly influenced, or practicing them. These are other generations. I think the issues can be different. I think it is sure hard to be a kid today. It is dangerous out there, and I think the rise of violence, the easy availability of guns, the saturation of drugs to the corner level in your little town, wherever it is. When I was growing up, drug abuse was so unusual and so foreign. I can remember a couple of movies, the Man with a Golden Arm, and if you ended up having a drug problem, they sent you to I think it was Louisville or Lexington, Kentucky, or there was a special federal prison for drug addicts from all over the country. Now, you go to any jail, and it is full of drug addicts, or people that have a problem with drugs. It was there, but the magnitude has shifted somewhat, although there are not as many alcoholics as there were.
SM:
But you see that, I do not want to make this in a political interview, but then you have those who comment that well the welfare state, and the policies begun under the Johnson administration began a trend. Special interest groups, we care more about special interest groups than we care about the general public. That is conservative, that is a conservative attack on democratic policy. Well the thing is, and then now that Boomers are in or going into, because they are 50 now beginning of the Boomers, so they are really just have not been in positions of power and authority for very long, and they have still got many years ahead.
HG:
We have all the problems with the previous generation and depositing on our doorsteps. I was talking to somebody about healthcare, and I am old enough to remember that when I got sick, we called up with Dr. Loftus, and we went over there, and whatever I needed then my father paid him for it. There was not any health insurance back then, if there was, we did not have it. A lot of times we were sick, we did not go anywhere, because we did not have the money. I remember in 1965, that was the I graduated from high school when Johnson brought Medicare in, and there were actually quite a few old people who had very little, very little during their working life, and then had very little to retire on. Nowadays, the rate of elderly who are destitute is very small, at least from the statistics I have read, so a remedy was developed to take care of those in need. That is where I remember the great society, and I thought all of that was well-intentioned, and a good idea, and did not have a problem with it then. I think there is some things we can do to... Actually, I think the difference, what I am remembering now is I did not have a lot of good to say about Reagan, the president, but one of the things that I was very pleased with was when he passed, and signed off on a catastrophic healthcare bill for Medicare beneficiaries, I think it was (19)83 or (19)84, so that everyone would have guaranteed catastrophic healthcare, that no one would lose everything as a result of getting sick, and it was to be paid for by the Medicare beneficiaries themselves. They would pay the premium. Well, the AARP people and the well-to-do elderly got so upset, and caused such a ruckus that two years later it was done away with. They did not want to pay the premiums for their poor fellow generation, World War II generation class of (19)46. I thought that is really ludicrous. I think of us, to go back to the other question, I think our generation has grown up with the idea that we are responsible for the rest of society, and I personally do not have a problem with having programs. Can programs get out of hand? Can they take on a life of their own? Can people become too dependent? In politics, it is clear that once you have given somebody something, it is much harder to take it back than if you never gave it to them in the first place, because people come to feel entitled to it. Depending on where you are at, where you are at in the food chain because I do not expect to get anything out of social security, or very little. As I work on my investments, and things like that. I feel that I have to be able to take care of myself because I do not think there is going to be anything there. But my mother's generation, my mother's getting social superior now, and I am real happy for her and her generation, and they are getting much more than they ever put into it. That turns out to be the fatal flaw, and this kind of approach and it remains seen what they are going to do about it.
SM:
You bring up that, it is just an example, I will look at the (19)60s and the Boomer generation as a group that cared about other people, who cared about what was happening in the south. Young people went down to Freedom Summer, even though the (19)64, they were not the Boomers, but the Boomers were coming on, and seeing these experiences because in (19)64, most Boomers old enough to go down south, but that was that group that just preceded the Boomers. You got the issue of civil rights caring about African Americans, you got the issue of certainly poverty in the inner cities. You have got the issue of the environmental movement, which came to fruition with that 1970 Earth Day ceremony in Washington. You have got the women's movement, who ... Even the Native American movement. That happened in Elk- The were a Hispanic movement. The Latino movement started around that time, gay and lesbian movement. It was like a caring about some of the disenfranchise in our society, and I look upon that as a very positive quality within the Boomer generation. But then, there are the naysayers out there who say that in reality we were our very selfish generation, only caring about ourselves, and our own special interests. Then they see what is happening today that African Americans care about only their issues. Gays and lesbians care about their issues, and women care about their issues, and break all the breakdowns. What are your thoughts on that? Would you categorize this generation as a very caring generation, different than any previous generation, or they cared more? Is that a quality that is positive in this?
HG:
I think my parents' generation, and their parents' generation, that it was rugged individualism all the way. My parents did not feel any particular responsibility for other people. They felt that it is what you do for yourself. You got to get up and go to work, and you do not expect nothing from anyone else, and you do not... You are not responsible for anyone else. As opposed to my generation where, as I was growing up, I saw the government turn into turn again... I mean you can just look at the New Deal, and everything that was done to overcome the Depression, and see that in fact the government has created programs, some of which are still around now, and do not need to be that. In fact, I think of the government, if the government is not there to attempt to remedy problems in the society, and problems that only affect special groups or interests, then what is the government there for? Versus the government that is there to keep the status quo, which means some people who are doing swell are going to continue to do swell, and then other people who are not, just too bad for them.
SM:
The haves will continue to be the haves, and the have nots-
HG:
Right. I think of the kind of government that I believe in is a proactive, and a reactive government that does things, and tries new approaches, and does not close its eyes to problems, and it does not have to be a problem that affects everyone in the country in order for the government to be reactive to it.
SM:
When you talk about that, that is directly linked to when these Boomers were growing up. Because they saw the Great Society of Lyndon Johnson, and they saw these things, and it was really affected them, and those that have gone into public service, and want to be involved in working for others beyond themselves. I got a question here. Have you changed your opinion on the youth of the (19)60s over the last 25 years?
HG:
Just on the youth of the (19)60s?
SM:
Yes, the youth. Have you changed at all?
HG:
No, not really.
SM:
Do you feel you are consistent in your thoughts?
HG:
Yeah, I did not look down on us. I thought I served with a lot of guys that felt that they were doing the right thing, just like I thought I was. I could also understand people that did not want to die, and did not want to get hurt, and did not want to be exposed to horrible things. Much of my generation, 90 percent of my generation was not in uniform in the whole Vietnam War. What is that make them? I did not have a problem with Bill Clinton. I do not have a problem with the letter he wrote from Oxford. I do not have a problem with him wanting to get out of serving the Vietnam War. I did not have a problem with Dan Quail, who managed to wangle a National Guard position so he did not have to go. In any war, the majority of the citizenry do not serve, and in anywhere. What is that make them?
SM:
If you recall Don Bailey, when he spoke on our, at that program in (19)75, I mean (19)75, (19)85, he refused to even acknowledge the Vietnam veterans over at that program. Remember we had the reception upstairs, and he said, "No, I will sit downstairs with a program start." So he was very bitter, and I think he had a couple purple hearts, or was right front lines and-
HG:
Personality disorder too. Being a surgeon in Vietnam does not make you a wonderful person.
SM:
That is true. They are always going to be those people of the extreme who are not going to ever change, and are still going to have the bitterness probably to the time they go to their grave, but it is my hope that the majority will want to create a dialogue between, as they get older, and not have this bitterness, when they go to their graves about that era. It is a feeling that hopefully this whole project will get involved with. This is a comment, the Boomers always used to say they were the most unique generation in American history. I can remember in the early (19)70s when I was in Ohio State University, we go to rallies, and they say we are going to show the world that we are the most unique generation in American history. Not only were they fighting the war, but all the other issues that were involved, and to this day, as a Boomer, now in my late 40s still, I feel that we are something unique. That is just me. Certainly different than my dad's generation, and I work with student’s day in and day out, and they are totally different than what we were, but they are not activists. I have perception, do you think that for that we are the most unique generation in American history, or in this century?
HG:
No, I do not think we are the most unique. Again, I can think about the first generation who came over as English subjects, and what it took them to decide that they wanted to set to get freedom from England, and pursue a war that there was no consensus at the time that we could even pursue successfully, and everything went on. I look at the generation that fought to keep the Union together. I look at the generation that came out of a Depression and joined a World War, and wanted... I do not think that we are any more unique. I think we have had some challenges that other generations might not have had, but they have had their challenges. I think we have met our challenges by and large, well. I think of this as unique.
SM:
If you are described a good quality or an adjective that would describe this generations' activist, they may have been more activist than any other generation, irrespective of the American Revolutionary period, which they were obviously activists risking their lives, but they were in the minority too, at that time because I think one third, only one third were against Britain. One third supported Britain, and one third care less.
HG:
Well, I also think that one of my pet peeves is the media. I also think that our generation saw the sentencing of the media, as not only people who reported the news, but people who make the news. You can look around for many examples today, that young girl that made her walk on the women's gymnastics team pretty strong. When in reality, we had already won. She did not know that. She was... The next day I heard on TV that she was being told that she could probably make four or five million dollars now if she wanted to put her efforts into marketing herself, and whatever. My major problem with the news today is that I think they spend too much time making the news from the start. They have been committed to the idea that the TWA flight 800 blew up with a bomb, regardless of evidence, or lack of evidence. These stories take on a life of their own, and I think that began with our generation. The electronic media was really coming into its own. I mean, I remember growing up watching the news of Walter Cronkite, and he just, he was just a talking head there most of the time, and would have a couple of clips. He reported it in his monotone, and then he would end up with, "and that is the way it is." The news is presented differently. It has spin on it, just like, I mean, everything anybody is feeding the media has spin on it, and then they put their own spin on it. I think that we came of age during the electronic media era, when the electronic media was coming of age is starting to realize it is potential.
SM:
I think a lot of the perceptions of Vietnam came from those reports too, especially morally safer. In that one report that everybody remembers, and I remember it was because I was there seeing the news that night of burning down that village, setting in a fire. That might have been 60 minutes. I am not even sure what it was, but I just know... I think it was Morley Safer.
HG:
60 minutes.
SM:
Yeah.
HG:
-went over.
SM:
Yeah, I think it was Marley Safer. Yeah, he was there, and so was Mike Wallace.
HG:
I can remember every night hearing the casualty count, and how many people, how killed in action there were that week.
SM:
From now we know that the true numbers that were coming in. This might be repetitive here, but Boomers used to say they were going to change the world. They were offering quotas being the youth that would change the world in a positive way. Was this true? Were they different? And in what way? I think you have already kind of made a comment in there. It has often been quoted that only 15 percent of the Boomers were truly activists, were involved in some sort of activity linked civil rights, Vietnam War protest, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the environmental movement, or any kind of activism overall in politics. Any issues today? Is this true, or is this another way to lessen the impact this group has had on America since the (19)60s? In other words on, there has been reports on the television, public broadcasting, documentaries on the Vietnam War, and they will always say that actually there were not that many people really involved in that. They lessened the impact these people had on what was happening in America based on the numbers. Since this is a generation of 60 million, 65 million, only 15 percent on were involved, so thus it was not that great a movement. But, that is the media again.
HG:
Well, I think-
HG:
I called Tom Williams up and I said, "Where did you get this statistic?" And he mumbled around and I spent years trying to track it down. It supposedly, and you can ask Jack Smith about this if you talk to him, because it apparently came out of some church study that he had some involvement in. A church group had given him some money, and some people he was involved with, but it was patently untrue. And Tom Williams, we finally identified that he heard it from Jim Webb, who wrote Fields of Fire and was Assistant Secretary of the Navy or something like that. Well, he was an Annapolis classmate of Tom's, and Jim was going around the country doing the radio shows, pushing his book, and that is where he was throwing this out. But it is patently untrue. The VA, who has the best data... Suicide data, for one, is difficult data to work with. There was lots of problems with it, but they have done the best study to date, and there is nowhere near that. And other states have done their own studies of this. I mean, it is such a statistic that really gets a reaction out of people. So a lot of people have looked at it, but it is not true. It is not even close to being true. And I am really disturbed to hear that they are still pushing it down there.
SM:
They did not do it this year, it was last year. There is the guys at the wall, the guy that go around showing they have a...
HG:
Right. I have little patience with veterans who are professional victims at this point. As we all approach 50, it is like time you get on with it, although there are many veterans who just will not ever get on with it. And so they identify themselves with the fact that they have been victimized, and they have never moved on to a survivor identity. So they are stuck in Vietnam and they will never make it home.
SM:
Are many of those peoples not diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, they just do not move on?
HG:
They just do not move on. And that is true of any war. Not everybody gets over it. And so we owe them. Lincoln said, when the VA was created, care for the, what is it? "Care for the Warrior and for his wife and for his orphan, for his widow, and for his orphan." But that does not make it sell to Vietnam veterans as a group and not come home and off themselves as a way of dealing with what they found when they came home. That is not true at all.
SM:
Remember when we did the program back in (19)85? That was a big issue even back then, because we had the Harry Gaffney, who would always dress in a suit, and Dan Fraley would dress in a suit, remember? And then you would go down to the Vietnam Memorial in Philadelphia, you would see those that are still wearing their army fatigues, but that it was okay for that opening ceremony. But I remember Harry saying that there is just some people, they ought to learn to dress now. I mean, they have got to move on from it. So what are your thoughts on the former left leaders who state that their past activities and those of their peers had more negative impact on society than good? Many of the... We are talking about the David Horwitz, the Collier who wrote that book on the Destructive Generation, basically condemning the entire generation as real negative, especially those people who were on the left. That is, the war protestors. Those people took over the Democratic Party in 1968. Those people that were affiliated with Eugene McCarthy, and possibly Bobby Kennedy and certainly, oh, during that timeframe. And of course they disrupted the Democratic Convention in Chicago in (19)68, some of the Republican convention too, in a smaller way. So what are your thoughts of those people who look back on when they were younger and did things, and from a psychological perspective, what does that entail?
HG:
Well, I think we all look back at our coming of age, and we all have things to regret, and we all have things to be proud of. We can all say, "Boy, if I knew then what I know now," and I think no matter where you stand on the issue, that is a common experience. Whatever your positions are on different issues, that maturity and wisdom and the things that we pick up as we grow, we might be in a different place.
SM:
When you look at people that, either the boomers or whether... You said you have been consistent on your thoughts from then and now toward your perception of people in your age group. But what about those individuals that have kept their ideals? Another word term that has been used from our generation is that they were idealistic somewhat. Dr. King coined the phrase Dreamers, hoping for a better future for all of us, but certainly idealistic. And you almost also made a comment earlier on that many have moved on, and mellowed out, and raised families, and the idealism was just something in their youth. And that is even psychologists and psychology will say that most young people are idealistic when they are young. And as they get older, they have to raise families and get into the reality of what life is. But there are many that still live those ideas.
HG:
Mellowing out or becoming responsible to a family and all that does not mean you have to give up your ideals or change who you are, what you believe in or what you feel a lot about.
SM:
Do you feel that the people that you have worked with, the boomers, what was the percentage that they have given up their ideals and just live day to day or they still fight for things?
HG:
Fight for issues? Well, certainly the populace is less, if you take the voting rate, is less involved. And I could not wait to vote. I came home from Vietnam and I was not old enough to vote, or old enough to have a drink in the state of Pennsylvania as I was laying in the Naval Hospital in South Philadelphia. But once I became old enough to vote, I vote, I vote regularly, and I stay aware of what the issues are and I try to understand the world that is going on around me. The people I spend a lot of time with and who are in my generation seem to do the same thing. We can talk about it. In my experience, we have not lost our passion. We are not 19 with a lot of free time on our hands, but we can write letters, we can make donations to political organizations, we can join political organizations. We can do things like that to try and continue to support our vision of what we think America ought to be.
SM:
I have a list of names here that I would just like you just comment your thoughts on them. If you were to try to place the following names in the minds of boomers, what overall reaction we do for the following names? I would like your thoughts, just a couple sentences on each of these individuals personally, and maybe if you can speak for the boomers, try to think what they think of them today now that they are almost 50. First name is Tom Hayden.
HG:
Well, from what I understand, he was an effective legislator in California, and that is really all I know about him. Besides the fact that he was married to Jane Fonda.
SM:
How about the fact that he protested, went to Hanoi and all the other things?
HG:
So did Jane.
SM:
Now as a Vietnam veteran, have you forgiven them for that?
HG:
I never had a problem with him doing it. I personally felt, again, to confuse the warrior with the war was the big mistake. What I had hard feelings about with the American society was they confused the warrior with the war. I did not have any problem at all with what people felt about the war, but I really felt that they should not be hostile or against the warriors, meaning the Americans who went over and pursued what the government policy was.
SM:
So again, getting back, and I am going to put Jane Fonda in here too, because she is down further. One of the things when I go to the wall is that is the name that is up on all the details. Jane Fonda bitch, upside down. I have a picture of a Vietnam veteran, I think I told you on the phone, with an artificial arm and an artificial leg, and he has got these big badges and I think they even sell them down there. It is like that is the name. Jane Fonda seems to be the name that you see on the badges.
HG:
I never heard Jane Fonda say anything against Vietnam veterans except we were being abused or used by the government. She even tried to... She made a movie, Coming Home, which was one of the better movies about Vietnam veterans' adjustments and issues, and that was 1980.
SM:
Okay, then what draws the ire of people? She was in Hanoi, that picture that that was taken, of course the North Vietnamese should win. Of course, they are fighting. That is the enemy of the American Soldier.
HG:
And again, that that is speaking to the nature of the war. And I do not begrudge anybody their feelings about the war and the validity of the war. But if you are going to say something about the warriors that carried out that war, then I have a problem with it.
SM:
Lyndon Johnson?
HG:
I feel that he was a good president, that the Great Society and many other programs that he created were important programs that were... I believe the government should have been getting involved in these issues.
SM:
In terms of him bringing the troops to Vietnam, he was the guy that brought the first large numbers of troops. You do not begrudge him or have a negativity toward him?
HG:
Yeah, we had a mindset that we had won the Second World War. It was the same mindset that got a lot of guys killed in Korea, and it was felt that it was just like in Desert Storm. And Desert Storm worked out really nice. Vietnam did not, but basically, they were very similar actions. We felt that if Vietnam fell, the domino theory, all the Southeast Asian countries were going to become communist strongholds, and this was against our strategic interest. So we got involved to try and prevent this. I mean, that is what it was all about.
SM:
How about Bobby Kennedy?
HG:
It is funny. I was in Vietnam most of 1968, so I did not even know when people were getting killed. They did not tell us.
SM:
Really? How long was it before you knew that Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy were killed within a two month-
HG:
I found out when I came back home.
SM:
Really?
HG:
Yeah. Anything that happened in 1968, I went over in early March, and I got back on December 5th, and they were not... For example, when Martin Luther King got killed, they were not playing us up as big news. We only had one radio station, Armed Forces Radio, and they were not playing that up, and I can imagine why they were not. And same thing with Bobby Kennedy.
SM:
What are your thoughts on him though, as you think back on the boomers?
HG:
I thought that had he not been assassinated, he might have made a good president.
SM:
How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin?
HG:
I think of them in the same terms. Actually, the thing that we were watching a week ago was a special on the serial murders, and Charles Manson was in there, and my wife was saying, "I seem to remember something about him." But she was only seven or eight at the time, and this guy was nuts, and did crazy things. And I think of these people as individuals who were in the right moment at the right time, and they got their 15 minutes of fame. And I do not have any enduring feelings about them one way or another. I think Abbie Hoffman died in New Hope of an overdose. That is what I think about him. It does not sound, from what I read at the time, it did not sound like he ever got over the (19)60s.
SM:
Right. What is interesting, Jerry Rubin was criticized often as selling out because he went on to become a successful businessman. He got killed in a crime. I thought it was interesting. He was doing something illegal when he got killed. He was crossing the highway in LA, jaywalking, and he got run over, but he was a successful businessman. Whereas Abbie Hoffman, the Yippies, that period, that was just a bunch of, you satisfy this one issue and we will find another issue, that kind of mentality. Yet he did live his entire life as an activist, because he tried to fight to save the Hudson River.
HG:
He was here to fight the pumping station on the Delaware.
SM:
And I guess what struck me, not so much the eccentricity of the man, but the fact that the way he died, and the fact that as he was older, because he was about 54 or 53 when he killed himself, he only had $2,000 in the bank, and he had given all his money away. And that suicide note or something like that is they said he had nothing more to live for because no one was listening to him anymore. And I thought, "Ooh, is there something to be said there? Is this the fate of the boomers?" Even though he is only one person, is this the fate of the boomers and all the issues that they cared about when they talk about today's young people who have their own issues. When you talk about the issue of civil rights, that we have still got racism there. "I do not want to hear about it. I do not have other problems. I want to get a good job. And we got our own problems here, and you are just living in the past." So that is what struck me about Abbie Hoffman more than... He was a legitimate activist, but his earlier years hurt him because he played all these games as a Yippie. As he matured, he was a mature activist. So I am wondering what that says about our generation, in terms of...
HG:
He is clearly in a minority and most of us are not, do not spend our lifetime being activists, at least in that sense.
SM:
How about Timothy Leary?
HG:
He just died of cancer. For someone who had made it into academia, Harvard, and he developed some psychological constructs that are still useful today, that people still talk about them. And I learned them, and was surprised to know that that was him. I originally at the time thought he was just wispy professor that was on the fringe, but he was very much a part of the establishment. You cannot get much more than faculty at Harvard. And he gave all that up.
SM:
To get into the drug scene.
HG:
Yeah. I could not imagine why he would, why he revoke all of that.
SM:
Name a couple more here. Huey Newton?
HG:
I think the Black Panthers, was not he?
SM:
Mm-hmm.
HG:
All right. My experience with the Black Panthers was kind of a fascination with them. That felt like, well, if everyone is talking about revolution, this is as close as you can get to revolution, armed revolution, and that is my association to him.
SM:
It is sad, too, that I think he was gunned down in Oakland when he eventually died in later years, in the late (19)80s. Ralph Nader?
HG:
A fellow alum, who is still fighting for the consumer. I think world is a safer place for Ralph, and it is good that we have him.
SM:
He is an example of a guy who has been an actor his whole life. He goes from one cause to another.
HG:
Most of them have to do with protecting the citizens from big business.
SM:
George McGovern?
HG:
He seem like a nice man.
SM:
Boomers latched on to him in 1972 in large numbers, even though he got clobbered in the election. Many people blame him for the demise of the Democratic Party, or part of the demise. It is basically a lot of the Democrats, McCarthy, and Mondale, and Jimmy Carter, and Dukakis, they bunch all these people in together, and other Democrats of that era, Hubert Humphrey. He is a liberal. A lot of boomers still, when I think of the names of that era, (19)72, it is McGovern, McGovern, McGovern, McGovern. Do you still think that strikes a chord with a lot of veterans? They still think of him in positive terms?
HG:
Yeah, I guess as they think of him. Most of these people I do not think about.
SM):
They have moved on, huh?
HG:
I cannot remember the last time I thought about any of them. Yeah, certainly he was identified with getting out of war.
SM:
How about Gene McCarthy?
HG:
Do not really have any association with him. More association to Joseph.
SM:
Because of the Red scare. Of course, Eugene McCarthy was the guy that the young people started latching onto to fight against the war.
HG:
Nixon was one of them.
SM:
Yep. In fact, he is next. Richard Nixon?
HG:
My association to him is that he managed in 20-some years to come back from what I thought was probably the biggest disgrace you could possibly have. And, at least in some quarters, he kind of rehabilitated, politically rehabilitated. And I still hear people say that he was the greatest political mind around, and whatever. And I remember when Watergate was going on, I just could not believe that these people were that stupid, and that this was all going to... This stupid little project was going to bring down the presidency. And it was scary at the time.
SM:
His impact with Watergate had last lasting imprints on boomers, how they lead their lives?
HG:
It has not on me. Everybody does dirty tricks. And everybody... Maybe not everybody, and maybe this is my own lack of trust in politicians, but I assume that everybody is going to try to get away with what they can get away with in the political game.
SM:
How about George Wallace?
HG:
A racist. Did not deserve a bullet in the back.
SM:
Daniel Ellsberg?
HG:
The first word that popped into my mind was a patriot. We were talking about that earlier. He did what he felt he had to do. He took on the federal government, which is no small thing.
SM:
Hubert Humphrey?
HG:
The memory I have of him is that he supported programs that took care of people.
SM:
And Robert McNamara?
HG:
Well, I did not buy his book, I am sorry to hear he is distressed with his performance in the war. Then again, Secretary of Defense, all you do is provide your opinion. You do not make the decision.
SM:
But he is criticized for holding his opinion back.
HG:
I do not believe that. I believe that that opinion was represented at the highest levels of government. And if he did not share it, someone else would. Certainly from what I have read, is there was a group that always felt that it was a losing proposition from the start. And there was always someone around who would take that position. It was not like everyone was telling the president, "Oh, yes, we are going to win this one." And it became in (19)67, (19)68, not the question of would we leave, but how are we going to leave, and how do we do it and look good, and how do we manage it politically?
SM:
Do you think inviting him to the wall would be, and having him come to the wall would be positive or negative, if he would come?
HG:
I think it could be positive.
SM:
I do not know what [inaudible] would think, but I have a sense, knowing he is very open-minded that he would like him to come, and just like Lewis Puller believes we need to heal. Bill Clinton, all of need to come at some juncture. And it is not an interesting too, that the only president who has visited the wall is President Clinton. Ronald Reagan did not come. Neither did George Bush. And it is amazing. I do not know if they have invited Jimmy Carter ever, but I know that Al Gore was there once to speak before he was a candidate, John Kennedy?
HG:
Well, I was not old enough to really know what was going on. My enduring memory of John Kennedy was I was in ninth grade when he and Nixon were running against each other, and the class was arbitrarily split in half, and I was made a Nixon devotee, and had to argue that Nixon should be elected.
SM:
You look at the assassinations of Johnson, not Johnson, assassinations of both Kennedys and Martin Luther King, and then in a smaller way, of Malcolm X and Medgar Evers, and the bombing of kids down in that church in the south. And then, of course, the attempted assassination of George Wallace. They were all over a period of time. How does that affect the boomers in terms of their psyche?
HG:
Well, I think it was a traumatic time, to have the president assassinated. Makes you feel pretty helpless.
SM:
As a professional psychologist, you cannot have 60 million people in front of you. But if you were to analyze the effect that this man had on, remembering that that boomers would only be, what, 14 when John Kennedy was killed? The earliest boomers. The oldest boomers. I met him, by the way, when I was a kid at Hyde Park, just by accident, and had a chance to shake his hand. But just for a brief moment, he had an impact on me back in 1960. That was when he was at Hyde Park. But the sense that things would have been different, but you cannot always project what may have been. You got to deal with what is. Do you think boomers, I know they do not think about it, but in the subconscious they may be thinking, "What if John Kennedy had lived? What if Martin Luther King had lived? What if Bobby Kennedy had lived?" All these what ifs. Because some of the what ifs, if John Kennedy had lived there may not have been a Vietnam War. We may have not sent the troops over, but there is no proof that there would have for that.
HG:
Well, he sent the first ones there.
SM:
Right.
HG:
What I remember about John Kennedy is the Cuban missile prices. And I was convinced we were all going to get nuked. And that is from going through it, and then watching things on TV or reading about it, you realize how extraordinary that was, to take that position. What would have happened if he would not have, and they would put more and more missiles on Cuba. That really was a time, in everything I have read and watched, that that really was a time when we could have had a nuclear war. That was the one time that it could have went either way.
SM:
Getting back to the question on the psychology, has this... What effect has that had on the generation in terms of-
HG:
Well, I do not know if it has had any effect on our generation as opposed to the rest of the populace. None of us voted to put him in office. None of us probably paid much attention to his campaigning. And I remember the big point in the election was, well, he was a Catholic. We have never had a Catholic elected president. So I would guess that it probably would have had more of an impact on the adults who were involved in the election and had voted for him. And I did not really know what he stood for when he was elected. And no, I do not know that it had big an impact at all on our generation.
SM:
A couple of more people here, Spiro Agnew?
HG:
Another crook. And the only person I ever knew that used the word effete.
SM:
Muhammad Ali?
HG:
As I have gotten older, I have come to admire him for his position. He took on military service. Because I remember when Elvis went in the service. And he went in, he put his time in. That was the expectation. And Muhammad Ali said, "No." I had always admired him as a fighter and as a boxer.
SM:
How about Barry Goldwater?
HG:
I did not really know much about Barry Goldwater. I did not have much of a reaction to him. All I remember is the bumper stickers, AUH2O. He was not a major player as I knew.
SM:
How about Dr. Benjamin Spock?
HG:
Well, I did not read his book. I knew that he was against the war and was an activist. And all I remember thinking is he could have stuck to being a doctor. Being a doctor does not necessarily make you knowledgeable about the bigger world, and the issues of war and peace.
SM:
And Gerald Ford?
HG:
He was the first president I voted for. Maybe the second. That is right, I voted for Nixon in (19)72. It was only recently that I finally voted for somebody who got elected. Yeah, Clinton from the first. Now I voted for Nixon, and he got elected. But that was my first vote, and...
HG:
Yeah, that was my first vote and I felt he had experience and the alternative... At that time, I thought we needed people with experience, but since then until Bill Clinton, everybody I voted for lost.
SM:
I have not voted for too many winners either. How about Sam Ervin, the person who headed the Watergate Committee?
HG:
I just remember watching him on TV and he seemed fair and impartial and I mean, I thought that was great drama.
SM:
And John Dean.
HG:
Well, I bought his book, Blind Ambition and read it, and then I watched a movie where Martin, what has he called, played him.
SM:
Martin Sheen?
HG:
Yeah.
SM:
Okay.
HG:
Played him. Yeah, he seemed like he was in over his head.
SM:
He spilled the beans though. He just...
HG:
Well, yeah, when he started to see that he was going to go for a ride.
SM:
And John Mitchell.
HG:
John Mitchell, he was a crook too when it came down to it. Our highest judicial officer. And he was a crook too.
SM:
How about the musicians of the era? I will just put like Bob Dylan and Jimmy Hendricks and Janis Joplin, those are the types.
HG:
Actually, my taste in music was like early to mid (19)60s and that kind of real hard stuff. I have gotten an appreciation for it as I have gotten older. I did not at the time. Yeah.
SM:
Because at that time, a lot of the era, the society of young people listen to that music and they think about the war and the big issues in society, and there was a lot of social commentary in the music and it kind of excited me. You wanted to get out there.
HG:
I was listening to Motown all the time and they did not sing about any of that. They were not commenting about anything except men and women and falling in love stuff.
SM:
And the last name here I have is Gloria Steinem. A lot of the women's movement people you know.
HG:
Right. I have come to appreciate the women's movement, although to the degree they want to become men. I think they were nuts because they had a better deal as a woman whether they realize it or not, in many ways. Much of what men are about in this culture and have been is very unhealthy.
SM:
Do you think the movement has changed from the early (19)70s to what it is today?
HG:
Well, yeah, I think everyone agrees there has been gains and they were fighting very basic issues. Well, first of all, they were fighting to be taken seriously, and I think they are taken seriously today.
SM:
What do you think of the Berrigan brothers? They burned the documents there and they went to jail for it.
HG:
Again, they were priests or brothers or something like that.
SM:
Yes, Philip and Daniel Berrigan.
HG:
I am just thinking that they must have been acting out of their conscience.
SM:
And the last one is Martin Luther King Jr.
HG:
I felt that he did have a dream and that he pursued that, that in his death he became more important than he may have become, had he not been assassinated. He became the symbol, and I think he helped polarize people around the issues and not just black against white. I think a lot of whites moved to support racial equality as a result of what happened to him.
SM:
In all these names that I have given, whether they be positive or negatives, do you still feel tremendous bitterness toward any of them at all in your thoughts? Say your thoughts 10 years ago, 15 years ago, back in, when you came back from the service, from early (19)70s to now, was there a period when you may have felt that negative toward them, but now it since time has passed-
HG:
No, I did not feel bitter towards any of them. I mean, I can certainly disagree with people.
SM:
How do you explain then a lot of the, again, I will not say a lot, but some of the commentary that is out there that as soon as they start talking in political terms, the politics of the day, they will refer back to those times. And you just mentioned the name, whether it be a, I do not want to say the Berrigans, I do not want to talk about them anymore, but any of the activists of that era, the Tom Hayden, I can imagine what they are going to say about him when he goes to the convention in Chicago because he was out protesting in (19)68. Now he is going to be inside the convention as a delegate from California. And the commentary that will be out there is, "Well, look, this party has not come anywhere. Look at that. The guy who protests is now inside. So the liberals are still in charge." And I am not saying I am a liberal or conservative, I am trying to be fair here, but there are many people that just cannot forget and cannot forgive. Congressman Dornan, for example.
HG:
He is not a good example of anything.
SM:
But he goes ballistic.
HG:
Nuts.
SM:
And Don Bailey, which we all witnessed in (19)85. And then I have a few people that I have witnessed down at The Wall who just talk amongst themselves and I just listen. It is just amazing, some of the things they say. Do you feel these are in the minority, that these people are in the minority now as opposed to-
HG:
Sure.
SM:
Okay.
HG:
Yeah, extremists are a minority by definition. Thank God there are not that many Bob Dornan around.
SM:
Yeah. What is amazing about him is he served this country well and he fought in the Korean War there is a lot of good things about him, but boy, when he starts talking about his opponents, it is really below the belt.
HG:
Well, I think personally, having been through it all myself, having served in combat or been wounded or this or that, that does not necessarily prepare you for anything. You can still be nuts. You can still be out on a limb. You can still have just really weird ideas.
SM:
Could you comment on the generation gap in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the generation gap, if you sense one today between boomers and Generation X?
HG:
Well, my sense of it is that today's young people did not get the same kind of introduction to certain values and beliefs and practices that our generation did. At least my experience was, my parents passed on their values and beliefs and practices, and there was a lot of should, should, should, should. And so your choice was to accept that or reject it or negotiate what you are going to accept and what you are going to reject. And my sense today is that there is a lot less of that. I guess the boomers have tried to encourage younger people to make more decisions for themselves and to be more of their own person. But that I think can make the process harder as far as finding out who you are and what you do believe in and what is important to you and how important it is to you.
SM:
That generation gap, there is a couple of books written on the (19)60s about the generation gap between the World War II generation and boomers and trying to understand that, a lot of it was what you talked about earlier, the status quo and being different, wanting to be different.
HG:
There was books on the me decade or the me generation and the ones I read just took it to an extreme and maybe a Leary or someone, but the idea of gaining self-knowledge and understanding yourself I think is important. And sure anything, can be taken to an extreme. I believe that in the end, we do not have the answer for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for all of us. We are all in this together. And anything that diminishes others in the end will diminish us. And so we are either all going to make it or we are not. But the strides the human race has made, we have made not through competition and aggression, but we have made through working together. That is how the human race has come as far as it has. And 10,000 years working together for the common good is where it is at-
SM:
See, that is interesting because that is another commentary. And when they talk about boomers is they were very impatient. It was on the category, they were an impatient group because they saw things as they were the status quo, and they had seen the roadblocks all these years for the status quo remaining. So they said, the heck with this, we want it now. That is where that revolutionary rhetoric came. And so they were not going to wait, even when you look at Dr. King at his non-violent protest, it was actually not a condemnation of Thurgood Marshall and the gradualist approach through the courts. But it was saying well, there was another way, and certainly we admired, but we want it now. We were not going to put up with the road blocks anymore. We were going to end segregation. We were not going to wait for the courts to do it for us. So there was kind of a symbolic thing that passed off into the boomers, that they were an impatient group at times, wanting it now. And that many of these boomers are now in positions of authority and responsibility, and what characteristics, are they still using that quality in their own everyday lives of wanting it now, not going through the process?
HG:
I think being young and all young people are impatient. I think Martin Luther King used a non-violent approach because it was very powerful. He learned that from Gandhi and you do not have to the amount of power and with a lot less of a downside than if you try to have a revolution and overtake something.
SM:
What has been the lasting legacy of the boomer generation?
HG:
Well, I feel that we were a hopeful generation.
SM:
The legacy of the boomer generation.
HG:
Well, as I said, I think we were a hopeful generation. The motivations of the generation were to make American culture and society, I will say more user-friendly, and to take care of those who needed help.
SM:
And as a follow-up, you feel that is one of the real good things about the boomers.
HG:
[inaudible]
SM:
What role, if any, does activism in the boomer generation penetrate into the lives of their children, Generation X?
HG:
I do not know if I can answer that. I do not have children.
SM:
I put that question in there because it is a biased question on my part, even though it is supposed to be fair here. I do not see a whole lot of activism amongst today's college students, except I see a tremendous amount of volunteerism. 85 percent of our students today and nation are involved and volunteer, which means they care about others. But in some sense, they feel somewhat lack of empowerment, because they do not vote. All the time, low numbers in terms of college students and young people. I think 18 to 24-year-old who vote, it just like amazes me. And of course we know from the data how they feel about elected leaders and their distaste for politics and wanting to become involved in politics. It is like what, between 15 percent and 17 percent in some of the entering classes, last two years amongst entering freshmen in higher education. Their interest in politics is way-way down, yet their interest in volunteerism is way-way up. So I am just trying to see what the perceptions are of those individuals who may work with them or have kids and so forth. Just again, let me repeat this, even though it may seem repetitive, do you think it is possible to heal within a generation where differences and positions taken were so extreme? Is it important to try to assist in this healing process? Should we care? And is it feasible? And the premise of this question goes back again to the many trips that I have taken to The Wall in Washington over the last five years basically. And I have been to several ceremonies with veterans in the audience and commentary like, they hate Bill Clinton. They hate Jane Fonda. They hate those who protested the war and never gave veterans a royal welcome on the return of the mainland. The Wall has helped in a magnificent way, but the hate seems to remain for those on the other side, should have never be made to assist in this healing beyond The Wall. Your thoughts? Are you optimistic or pessimistic? And again, maybe I am just seeing a very small group of people that always come to The Wall every year during those ceremonies.
HG:
Well, I mean, I have been to The Wall, I have been to the ceremonies down in the Philadelphia Memorial and I have talked to 1000s of veterans. I would say at this point in time, there was a clear minority who have not been able to come home from Vietnam and continue to identify with some kind of Vietnam dynamic as opposed to, I am a Vietnam veteran, I was there, but it was not something I tell people about myself. It is not something I think about or remember. I got too many other things that are more here and now and I have a whole other identity. And this is one part. And I think that is where the majority of Vietnam veterans are today. I think we can heal a lot of veterans and a lot of people that did not go ahead and hard feelings 20, 25, 30 years ago.
SM:
Do you have any [inaudible] people you have gotten to know who regret that they did not go? There is a guilt complex? [inaudible]
HG:
Well, there was a couple of people that wrote famous articles in the early (19)80s. It was almost getting to the point where it was in to be a Vietnam veteran, but it did not, and it has not, I do not think it ever will be. I felt the same way for them that I felt for McNamara, you have got your burdens to bear from the Vietnam era and I have got mine. I feel like everybody's a Vietnam veteran who lived through that period in America.
SM:
Even those who did not go?
HG:
Yeah, Women, mothers that sent their sons off. We all went through that period. We all suffered through that and watched it unfold and were upset by it.
SM:
Historian sociologists will say there has been two real traumatic experiences in American history that have come close to tearing the nation apart. Of course, most people will agree that you cannot really put the Civil War on the same scale as the Vietnam War, but it is close. Because when you look at what was happening here at home and the breakdown of the college campuses, the shutting down of college campuses in the cities and the protests in Washington and all over the country, and the divisions were there. I mean, it was just like, you cut it with a cake, when you are in the room with someone who was against you or for you. And there was not a whole lot of listening either between those who were for or against. Not just that issue, but there were a lot of other issues too. So those were tough times. Bear with me, I have just got a few more questions and we are done. Again, this is getting back, it sounds like a little repetitive here. Do you think we will ever have the trust for elect leaders again after the debacle of Vietnam and Watergate? If boomers’ distrust, what effect is this having on the current generation of youth? I think we have covered that in an earlier question. How did the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s change your life and attitudes toward that and future generations?
HG:
My experiences in the (19)60s, (19)70s?
SM:
Just overall, how did the young people of that era, of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, because when you think of the (19)60s, people will really say that the (19)60s is really (19)65 to (19)73, (19)72, (19)73 ish, that juncture. Then it goes into the (19)70s, which is the me decade and all this other stuff. So how did that change your life, the attitudes and all those things you were witnessing and seeing? Certainly the young man who went, before you went over, was different than the young man that came back.
HG:
I do not know how much of an impact on me because at that point I was trying to physically and mentally and emotionally find out who I was, now that I was different, I was very different. And I was in and out of the hospital most of that period. Well, from the end of (19)68 through (19)73 or (19)74, at a military hospital, [inaudible], I was very protected and insulated against a lot of this.
SM:
Were you were injured on the front lines during the war? Were you in the Army or the Marine Team Corps? Did you step in a booby trap or you were-
HG:
The guy in front of me did. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was no longer in the service. I was retired, but I was in the hospital having reconstructive surgery done for most of that time, and everybody around me was in uniforms. And so it did not have as much reality for me as, I guess if I would have been home living there seven days a week, 24 hours a day.
SM:
There is a brand-new book out right now called Quarantine Diary. Have you heard of it? There was a documentary on it. It was written by Jack Reid who was a Vietnam veteran from Texas. And it is a story about, well, there was an encampment that was overrun by the American soldiers and North Vietnamese army. And he took one of these little diaries and he thought it was from a dead Vietnam veteran. And he kept that in his backpack at his home for over 20 years after he came back from Vietnam. He served there, I think (19)68, (19)69, thought the guy was dead. And finally he had a hard time healing and was having a hard time, and so he decided, somebody encouraged him to try to find the family in Vietnam of this dead soldier.
HG:
Actually, the Vietnam Veterans of America has a whole program now to try and return kind of personal memorabilia like this, to get it back to survivors of these soldiers in Vietnam. It might have been in that program that he got some encouragement.
SM:
Well, actually the guy was still alive. It was a mistake. But the thing what came out in this book was that there was a concern that he brought forth, and that is that many of the Vietnam veterans went over there and saw their buddies get killed and they just wanted to kill Charlie, and they would go into a village and sometimes kill others. And so there was a sense of, it was not premeditated, but it was like a vengeance, I want to get back at the person who killed my friend. And thus he tried to bring over the fact that when he came back to America, he did not know what kind of an impact this had on him in terms of when he saw violence happen or someone was killed. He had no sensitivity. There was no sensitivity toward it because he had seen it all in Vietnam and seen people killed, kids killed, older people killed and so forth. And what he was before he went over there and what he was when he came back again, was a totally different person. And he was very concerned that when he saw tragedies on television and death and murder in America, that did not ring, it did not really strike him as anything out of the ordinary because he had witnessed it all in Vietnam as a different person. In fact, he would kill himself and things he never told his parents about. And I guess the question I am getting at here is, this is not a condemnation of Vietnam veterans. It is basically looking at the warrior and all warriors in all wars, that when they come back and they see violence, and of course the media portrays it on television all the time too, the violence, we were no longer sensitive toward it anymore. It is just an everyday happening. And I guess a question I want to ask also to you, as a result of the boomer generation in World War II, we did not see these things. There were not films taken of dead people, but during this era there was. And then of course it is documented much more in the stories too, of Vietnam veterans. That is this another quality of the boomer generations that is different than others, is this accepting violence as an everyday happening? Even not only those who went but those who saw it on television. "Oh, that is just part of being a part of a living human being." And so then this had transferred on to young people.
HG:
Well, I see much more of that today, where you turn on the local news and somebody has probably been murdered or run over and that is what they put on. And they show the body or the blood trail or the pool of blood or the spent casings in the drive-by shooting. That is happening today. I still remember things were not that gory on evening news and during the Vietnam era, at least they were not on CBS.
SM:
It did show that one scene where the South Vietnam soldiers shot that one, that was [inaudible] and you saw the young girl running down the road burned.
HG:
Yeah, those were the exceptions. That is why they became timeless.
SM:
One of the best history books ever written on the growing up years for the boomers, say in 25 to 50 years from now, and I was a history major, political science, and they say the best books of any period are 50 years afterwards. The best books in the World War II are now, really good books. Stephen Ambrose, really good books. What will be the overall evaluation of boomers? I talked to you about the lot of Left leaders are condemning their whole backgrounds, like Horowitz and the destructive generation. There is a lot of good books, like Lewis Puller talking about one of the best books ever written. He deserved the Pulitzer. What a writer. He should not have killed himself. He had such a skill in writing, that is why he was hired at George Mason University to teach writing to young people, because he knew how to write. What do you think historians, how will they write about this period, the (19)60s and early (19)70s in 25 years when it is that 50-year period? How would you project they will look at this whole era and the young people that came out of this era?
HG:
Well, I think they will identify it as a period of questioning the status quo, large numbers of the generation.
SM:
And that they say that it is an identity of a group that questioned the status quo. What was the impact? The concept that the boomers feel empowered and why do not Generation X, the children feel that way of boomers? That is amazing. When you had these people who felt empowered and yet their kids do not, not all, there is some that probably do, but not as empowered as their parents.
HG:
I do not know.
SM:
It is something you cannot quite answer, huh?
HG:
NO, it is too bad, if our legacy is that our children become passive and introverted and are focused on only themselves and their own needs.
SM:
Final question here, is the youth of that era believed they could have an impact on society, government policy. The (19)60s and early (19)70s is the Vietnam War policy, the draft, civil rights legislation, non-violent protests via Dr. King and the multiple movements that I have already described. In other words, that concept of empowerment, which is a term we use in higher education today. We want young people to know that they are at this university, they are empowered. They say, "What? I am only a young person of 18. What do you mean I am empowered?" Well, we are here at your leisure. And so you get involved in things and you give them a sense of empower. Why is society today resisting this today? And why, in your own words, do the sons and daughters of boomers feel less confident about their ability to have an impact on society and oftentimes less desire and seemingly less opportunity? This is just a concept that I have and I am trying to find out here. Am I wrong in assuming this in the question?
HG:
No, I do not think you are wrong in assuming it.
SM:
Do you have any answers, any more commentary on that or-
HG:
No, I think my brain is fried. I mean, we use empowerment in the healing professions. The idea is to empower. I mean, I believe it is much better to teach somebody to fish than to give them a fish if they are hungry. To not do for them as much as to teach them to do for themselves. That is where the real payoff is for them and society.
SM:
I think we are almost done here and we are down to the last thing here, but I want to follow up. Since you are a person who is a professional psychologist, what are the most important qualities for healing? When you talk about just a general concept of healing, especially if you were around a group of Vietnam veterans who was at The Wall and you kept overhearing this commentary, of course you would not butt in, but if you were in a room with them and had an opportunity to talk to them, what would you tell them in terms of-
HG:
Well, I would say that healing is a process, not an event. It requires a willingness to be aware of yourself and your surroundings. It is an active process, not a passive process. And you need to find-
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Dr. Henry Franklin Graff
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
9/30/10
Interviewer
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Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
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Craig McNamara
Language
English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; College protests; Anti-war; Environmentalism; Criticism of war; Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties; Activism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":769,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0}">Vietnam War; College protests; Anti-war; Environmentalism; Criticism of war; Baby boom generation; Nineteen sixties; Activism.</span>
Duration
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3:01:44
Subject LCSH
United States. Department of Defense. Office of the Secretary of Defense;
McNamara, Robert S., 1916-2009--Interviews
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Craig McNamara is the President and owner of Sierra Orchards, a diversified farming operation producing organic walnuts and olive oil. McNamara serves as founder and president of the Center For Land Based Learning,an innovative program, which assists high school students in building greater human and social capital in their communities. He currently is the President of the California State Board of Food and Agriculture. McNamara has a Bachelor's degree in plant and Soil Science from the University of California, Davis."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15171,"3":{"1":1},"4":{"1":2,"2":11791078},"9":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":{"1":2,"2":5526612},"15":"arial, sans-serif","16":10}">Craig McNamara is the son of Robert McNamara, former Secretary of Defense during the John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Baines Johnson administrations. He is the President and owner of Sierra Orchards, a diversified farming operation producing organic walnuts and olive oil. He also serves as founder and president of the Center For Land-Based Learning, an innovative program, which assists high school students in building greater human and social capital in their communities. McNamara currently is the President of the California State Board of Food and Agriculture. He has a Bachelor's degree in Plant and Soil Science from the University of California, Davis.</span>
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Craig McNamara
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 30 September 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
CM (00:00:03):
Testing one two.
SM (00:00:06):
Tape recorders. And of course, a lot of this is going to be about you, but it is also a lot on your dad too. You okay now?
CM (00:00:15):
I am ready to go.
SM (00:00:16):
How did you become who you are with respect to talking about your growing up years before you went off to college? What was it like going to high school and those early influences? And of course, you can talk about your dad and mom at this time too.
CM (00:00:34):
Are we focusing a little bit at the end of middle school and on the high school or high school?
SM (00:00:40):
Basically high school.
CM (00:00:44):
My high school was a continuation of Sidwell Friends School in Washington DC, which for me was a remarkable experience because I came from Ann Arbor, Michigan as a 10-year-old and went through the elementary school at Sidwell Friends. I came into the school system with a reading problem, with significant dyslexia problems that at that age, at that time was not really well known. It was a large kind of umbrella that covered many different parts of that learning disorder. So it was a lot of work for me. Getting to high school was a dynamic challenge. Sidwell Friends really did a remarkable job in assisting me and creating an environment that was very supportive. In ninth grade with all the excitement of sport and education and co-education, I was really in tune, and a good friend of mine had left Sidwell Friends at the end of eighth grade. And I said, "Well, where did you go, Frank?" He said, "Well, I went to this place called St. Paul's School." And what I did not realize was that he was prepared for this by his father and probably grandfather and it was the family tradition. He said, "You got to try this. You got to try this." I said, "Well, what is this?" He said, "Well, it is a prep school." I said, "I am really happy here at Sidwell Friends. Got all my friends and sports. He said, "No-no, you got to try it." So, I left Sidwell at the end of ninth grade and went to St. Paul's in Concord, New Hampshire for the remaining years of high school. It was a definite road not taken for me ever before. It was a very divergent road in my upbringing. My mom and dad had always raised us with a real foundation, I think, of social justice, of appreciation for, I am going to say the common good, the common man, for society. I did not know what I was getting into in this interesting environment that St. Paul's School provided. It was an incredibly challenging academic environment, especially for me. And it was an environment that, to be quite honest myself, I was under-prepared for and overwhelmed by. So what one normally does is learn how to compensate. My compensation was through my communication with people and my endeavors on the athletic field. So those were the areas that I really excelled in and had a very, very difficult time struggling academically there.
SM (00:04:00):
What years were you there?
CM (00:04:02):
Now that is a good question. I think that I began that school in 1965.
SM (00:04:06):
Okay.
CM (00:04:06):
And I move with the years. I was born in (19)50, so in (19)65 I would have been 15 and I graduated from St. Paul's in 1969.
SM (00:04:25):
What was it like growing up as your home base? Because your dad was working for President Kennedy and while your father was Secretary of Defense from (19)61 to (19)67 before he headed off to the World Bank, what was it like? In all these roles that he played, did you feel there was any pressure that your dad was a very... They called him one of the best and the brightest as David Halberstam had written in his book. Did you ever feel that when you had that visible a person as your dad who was very accomplished, that you could not meet his standards and you were trying to, or did you just want to get away to find your own identity?
CM (00:05:18):
You have covered a broad brush of ideas with the suggestions there, so let us look at them one by one. Pressures that a son feels from his father or a child feels from their parents, there cannot be anything more traditional than that. And so yes, of course I really have felt that throughout my life and it is a wonderful realization at certain times in your life when you realize you can appreciate what your parents have done, appreciate the leadership that they have provided in this case to their country, to their families, to their children. But yes, I felt a tremendous struggle that at times I was age-appropriately unaware of. But let me just go back to the first feelings of moving to Washington, DC. You have got to understand, I was raised in Ann Arbor, Michigan, but my whole connection was with nature from riding bikes to making dammed creeks to building tree houses to being out all day long with my mom whistling the special family whistle to let me know that dinner was ready. My life in the (19)50s and early (19)60s was one of edible connection with this dynamic force which ultimately has changed my life, which is nature and food system. So, coming me to Washington, DC was, I was an excited kid. I was 10 years old and slammed a little bit with this learning issue, but I took that instead and my mom worked night and day literally with me. I can remember both of us kind of weeping together over my inability to do homework, but we just kind of did it. But then there was the other side of Washington, which was the new frontier, the Camelot, the excitement of this incredible young president, family, and cabinet. They were called to serve. The cabinet members and their families were called to serve. I have fond memories of things that today are magical. They truly are magic moments that reflect back to your book, that I knew they were special, but I did not know how special they were. Joining President Kennedy at Camp David. Remembering being in the living room study of what seemed like a log cabin. It was a very understated building that the president at that time lived in at Camp David, and seeing him at ease in his rocking chair. Seeing him with his family. I remember attending in the White House, the first showing of PT 109.
SM (00:08:32):
Oh my gosh, Cliff Robertson.
CM (00:08:36):
Sitting on the floor and the president was on I think a chaise or some sort of, me being together with all of the Robert Kennedy family and president's family. It was an easy, wonderful relationship. And taking off from the White House Rose Garden or wherever the helicopters take off from as an 11 or 12-year-old, it was so impressionable, but it was part of life's fabric. I am trying to describe this incredible feeling. I am putting my two hands together because on one hand it was reality and another hand it was far removed from anything that I will ever live again.
SM (00:09:39):
What is interesting, and I can remember reading your dad's book in retrospect, in the sections where he talks about the family, which he did quite often throughout the book, and he mentioned the University of Michigan that you talked about and he wanted to live in a university environment and not in some rich suburb.
CM (00:09:57):
Yeah.
SM (00:09:57):
I thought that was, he really had his head on his shoulders and obviously it was probably very impressionable and important for him with respect to his family. And that is where you got your love for nature.
CM (00:10:08):
It really did. And it's teased out throughout our lives in the sense that in one respect, my dad must have been the first commuter, because Ann Arbor from Dearborn where he worked, I do not know in that day and age how many minutes it was, maybe 45 or 50 or an hour. And so he made that decision to have the intellectual capacity of living in a university town and back to my image here of nature, of living in an area that was not hyper economically oriented. And he would drive home the new models, whether it was the T-Bird or eventually the Edsel or whatever.
SM (00:10:57):
He drove an Edsel home, huh?
CM (00:11:00):
Whatever the new models was and would test drive them. And the other thing that my dad and mom always emphasized was a time for us as a family to be together, and typically being that he truly was a workaholic, it would be on a vacation in the Sierra Mountains because mom and dad grew up in the Bay Area of California and the Sierras were so important to them and to their generation. We would, as a family... Actually part of the family. Dad would be working in Michigan. Mom and my two sisters and I would head out in the summertime in the old station wagon and drive to the eastern slope of the Sierra Nevada up with their college friends and families, and we would launch a two-week trip, initially pack trip with mules in into the Sierras. These were the most wonderful experiences of my life.
SM (00:12:10):
Wow.
CM (00:12:11):
Campfires and was skating off a snowbank into a crystal clear lake and catching fish. My mom was a tremendous fisherwoman and taught me how to fish and [inaudible] fish.
SM (00:12:32):
She was quite accomplished too.
CM (00:12:34):
She was a remarkable fisherwoman.
SM (00:12:37):
Reading about her and her background. And she passed away in (19)81, I believe?
CM (00:12:42):
She did. She had mesothelioma cancer around the pleura her lungs. It was told to us that she would have an 11-month life and she lived 11 months. But she was one of the greatest sources of inspiration, I think, to my father. She was the greatest source of love and inspiration for me and our family. Just an absolutely down to earth, remarkable human being.
SM (00:13:15):
She was involved with an organization called Reading is Fundamental. I think your sister has been somewhat linked to that too.
CM (00:13:21):
Yeah.
SM (00:13:22):
But it is a nonprofit children's literacy organization. Was that based on the fact of your experiences with her as a young child?
CM (00:13:30):
I think it was three. Certainly it was the experience that she and I shared of how difficult it is for some children. Secondly, coming to the nation's capital and realizing that the literacy rate was so poor and that that was wrong. And thirdly, as my dad felt the story when meeting with President Kennedy said, "Okay," when he brought the cabinet wives together, "Your husbands are going to be under a tremendous amount of pressure and work and I want you to do something meaningful for yourselves and for society." So, it was kind of those three or four things. And I am so proud of my mom. She started this program, Reading is Fundamental, out of a mobile unit, bookmobile that would go around to schools and have school children come on board and pick out a free book, start a library in families where there were no books at home, and that has grown into a global network. It is remarkable.
SM (00:14:37):
Is your sister linked to that in some way?
C
M (00:14:40):
My older sister Margie is on the board of RIF.
SM (00:14:43):
Okay, very good.
CM (00:14:44):
Yeah.
SM (00:14:45):
And I guess President Carter awarded her the Medal of Freedom too.
CM (00:14:48):
He did, which was an outstanding recognition of my mom's dedication to society.
SM (00:15:04):
Getting back to that time when your dad was Secretary of Defense, what memories do you have, wherever you were location-wise, about the people that David Halberstam often describes in his book, The Best and the Brightest? Your dad was part of this group. What are your memories when, and I have got about seven or eight things here that were pretty big during your dad's reign as Secretary of Defense. The inaugural speech of John Kennedy. Where were you and how did that speech influence you in any way?
CM (00:15:40):
Oh, I am so glad that you have brought that up and reminded me of that. That whole experience began for me when dad came home from work one day and said, "Well, what would you think of moving to Washington, DC?" Now, I was 10 years old and I said, "Well Dad, do not worry about that because we are not going to do that. I have got my friends here, we have got the tree house, we have got all of what we so enjoy." And he said, "Well, I have been asked by the president comment to be a part of his cabinet." And the rest of that story is history. Obviously, he went out and I did not. But I do remember my mom and dad had gone to Washington in preparation for the inaugural and my older sisters and I were to fly out to be part of the day that you are mentioning here. It was an icy winter ice storm as I recall, and I was the one in charge of the alarm clock to wake up my sisters. Now remember, they are teenagers and I am 10 years old and I was worried that if I were to wake them up, they're going to get really angry with me for waking them up. So I think we were a little late getting to the airport. Got to Washington, picked up by a limo. Now, this is something I had never even dreamed of, seen one, or certainly had never ridden in. This was very exciting, and I recall being in the audience, looking up at the President, looking up at the cabinet behind him on the Capitol steps, watching Robert Cross and just...
SM (00:17:26):
Wow.
CM (00:17:27):
... being in the palm of something, of God's hands in a very, very special way.
SM (00:17:35):
Wow.
CM (00:17:35):
And then the day, I do not remember how it totally unfolded, but I do remember in the reviewing stand in front of the White House, whatever that was in 1960. I am sure it was very different then than it is today. And I think by that time it was a chilly day, very chilly but the sun shone as I recall. And I remember the cabinet coming past in their cars that were convertibles, I think, open top, and I remember my mom and dad in their car and dad had a... Remind me the name of the hat, the stovepipe hat?
SM (00:18:18):
Oh, Abraham Lincoln stovepipe?
CM (00:18:19):
Abraham Lincoln. And I recall shouting out to my dad, "Dad, you look really great out there." And then they went on. I am looking at my office wall right now because I am looking at a picture of them at one of the inaugural balls that they attended.
SM (00:18:41):
Wow.
CM (00:18:42):
And my dad in a tux and my mom and a ball gown with her gloves and everything. Quite a remarkable...
SM (00:18:53):
Yeah, I think President Kennedy, there is pictures of him wearing that kind of a hat too.
CM (00:18:56):
Oh absolutely.
SM (00:18:57):
Yeah. And of course that was a very cold day. You remember the president was speaking, you see the breath when he was speaking. But it was a great speech. I remember it was a cold day.
CM (00:19:11):
Can you hold one second?
SM (00:19:12):
Yes.
CM (00:19:24):
[speaking Spanish] I work for Harvest, so I get lots of men coming by looking for work.
SM (00:19:35):
A couple of the other events, and you will remember maybe dad talking about it at the table or conversing. The Bay Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis, because those are two very big events.
CM (00:19:47):
They are indeed. My memories of those, this wrapped into a much larger part of my life. And that is that, as you can imagine from my earlier comments, dad kept his work very separate from my life. And actually, throughout our lives, because we are talking kind of early right now, 12, 13, 14, but as I became a late teenager and all the way through my life, it was something that dad just chose not to share, not to talk about, not to engage me in. I think it was painful. I think he was trying to be protective. Was it right or wrong on his part? I do not think I can apply that sort of a rationale. Did it ultimately help me? No, it did not. But to get back to specifically your question about the Cuban Missile Crisis, I do recall that much more fervently than The Bay of Pigs. Dad would come home from work, say eight o'clock for dinner. He always sat on the same part of the couch. He would always have his hand on the coffee table to the left where the lamp was. He would typically be reading the paper. And in his hand on the coffee table was this beautiful walnut plaque. And there is some imagery here because I am a walnut grower today. This is a walnut plaque that probably measured four inches by four inches, and on top of the plaque was the most beautiful silver calendar, just a little piece of silver with the month of October, 1962, with the critical dates of the Cuban missile crisis embedded deeper in the silver calendar. And I remember my dad just kind of, his hand would be on that and it was as if it was braille, if the digits of his finger were rereading, re-recognizing the potential devastation of our world, had the United States launched their weapon.
SM (00:22:28):
Wow.
CM (00:22:28):
I have that memory emblazoned in my mind. That stayed with us forever.
SM (00:22:40):
Now that was a scary moment as we all watched President Kennedy on TV that night. And of course we all remember Adlai Stevenson at the United Nations. "I am going to wait for your reply until hell freezes over." I will never forget it. I am only a little older than you. A few more here. The Gulf of Tonkin in Vietnam, obviously in 1964. A lot has been written about that. Your thoughts on that, as well as the protests on college campuses that went throughout the time that he was Secretary of Defense. And of course the big one, there were two at the Pentagon and then the one in 1967 where they levitated, supposedly, the Pentagon. And in the 1965 one, which I am going to come back to later, where the man burned himself to death, just anything really linking to Vietnam.
CM (00:23:42):
Well, let me remind us that I was 14. 1964 [inaudible] maybe 14-year-olds today are a little more worldly and they are global understanding than I was. So those memories are more in retrospect. My reflections on those as I awaken to... My personal awakening occurred closer to 1966, (19)67 I was going to say. There again, I was in Concord, New Hampshire at St. Paul's School and one of my dear friends who was going to be the president of the school had created a teach-in about Vietnam. Now think of this. This is high school, so he was 17. This is Rick King. And he had invited professors, I believe, from the Boston area and maybe from Dartmouth to speak. And I said, "Well, now, wait a minute, Rick." At that point I still said, "There must be a reason that we are in Vietnam." And I remember standing in a phone booth. We do not have phone booths anymore, but I was standing in a phone booth from school and talking with dad. "Dad, there's going to be a teach-in. Is there any material that you can send me to justify the war in Vietnam?" And it just occurred while I am speaking with on the phone why it was that no materials arrived. I think at that point I realized there was no justification for us to be there. It did not dawn on me then, but the materials never arrived. The teach-in occurred, and that was a rite of passage for me. And I remember later on being 19, being in social events in Washington, DC in backyards with friends with houses in Georgetown and the decision-makers. I will put them in one category, decision-makers. My father and other decision-makers saying, "Well, you know, you just have not read enough about this issue. You do not really know what you're talking about." And yet we knew very intuitively and from our small world exposure that the Vietnam War was not [inaudible]
SM (00:26:27):
Yeah, I interviewed Dr. Henry Graff, the former professor at Columbia University, on Monday and he did the Tuesday cabinet book, the Tuesday cabinet meetings where your dad and top people on foreign policy would meet with President Johnson every Tuesday.
CM (00:26:46):
Yes.
SM (00:26:46):
And he had chances to talk to your dad four times, and he talked to him just before he was leaving in (19)67 as well. Johnson gave him full access to the cabinet, and what is interesting is when I talked to him about the gatherings of these people is that it was known early on that McGeorge Bundy, even in his book says he was against the war from the get-go way back in (19)64. And I know that Bill Moyers was against the war himself and he was only there for three years working with President Johnson. And then your dad had misgivings about the war for a long time. And I asked Dr. Graff, here you have Secretary of Defense McNamara. McGeorge Bundy was the special assistant, I forget his full title. And you had his press secretary, Bill Moyers, against the war, yet President Johnson kept going on. And Dr. Graff said, "Well, you have to understand, these men kept their differences behind closed doors and they showed that they were loyal. And that is the kind of people that President Johnson wanted around him."
CM (00:28:01):
Well, that is such an important point that you have brought up, loyalty, because it is something that my dad always referred to. I would ask him on those rare occasions that, particularly after the fact when he was at the World Bank and finally came out with his book, Retrospect. "Dad, why could not you have addressed it? Why could not you have spared yourself and our nation so much anguish, sorrow, and grief?" And he said several things. One is that he was an appointed cabinet minister, that he was not elected. Felt that it was his duty and his loyalty to serve the president in the best capacity that he could. And then I think that there is an evolution in people's thought processes and lives that allow them to come to grace and come to some sort of understanding, and thank God he did. I mean, I do not know many other people in his situation who have publicly and privately said, "I made a mistake and I would like us, I would like myself to learn from this mistake and maybe history can use these lessons that Earl Morris so accurately developed in Fog of War." Which by the way, I think every high school...
SM (00:29:34):
Well, I agree. I have a copy of it. I think it is a classic and I agree with what you say about your dad. Because one of the issues, I was in higher education for almost 30-some years, and very few people are willing to ever admit they make a mistake. And it is a sign of a true leader when they do because they become vulnerable.
CM (00:29:56):
Exactly.
SM (00:29:56):
And then they start questioning, which happened to your dad. " Why did not you do this before you left in 1967?" Here's another criticism of your dad. "Why was it that when you left," and I remember the scene, you actually can see it on YouTube where the president is... The going away ceremony, he was very emotional and he did not really say that because he did not agree with the president. I know he did not. And then some people said, "Well, he went off to Aspen to ski and he was responsible for the deaths of so many people on the wall." So, there is so many perceptions, but you are kind of like you are damned if you do or damned if you do not.
CM (00:30:40):
Well, I think what you say is accurate, and about his welling up and being very emotional and actually very interesting, because from that point on, he probably would never admit this but I think he suffered significantly from a- But I think he suffered significantly from a post-traumatic stress syndrome that, believe it or not, I think I suffered from, too, in the sense that the events of Vietnam were so distraught, disturbing to our nation. And personally, you mentioned the emulation, the person igniting themselves in front of the Pentagon. Those events are so dark, so traumatic. I do not think one ever recovers from them.
SM (00:31:34):
Right.
CM (00:31:38):
And you cannot control them. You cannot control when those emotions... That is a significant damage to one's psyche character. And you cannot suppress that. As good as certain people are, and my father was one of the best at compartmentalizing parts of his life, that went deep into all parts of his life. I do not think for the rest of his life, he could actually do both.
SM (00:32:06):
One of the things that upset so many of the boomer generation, because TV was very important, black and white television and the news, is when your dad gave those weekly reports on the numbers killed. And many believed he was lying, because those reports included dead animals and all the other things just to please the president. But what is interesting, when he wrote, in retrospect... I have two anecdotes. My very first interview, because I started this project way back in (19)96, as it said in my letter there, and I met with Senator McCarthy. And one of the questions during my meeting when Senator Eugene McCarthy was, what do you think of the new book out by Robert McNamara? I have to listen to it again to get the exact quote, but he is a little too late.
CM (00:33:00):
Yeah.
SM (00:33:01):
A little too late, and he was very upset, and he said, "Let us go on the next question". So that was his response. And then, I have pictures at the Vietnam Memorial, because I have been going to the Vietnam Memorial since 1994 for Veterans and Memorial Day to pay my respects. And in about the year that, in retrospect, came out, I will never forget it. There were two copies of... in fact, I can look it up and send it to you on the computer. There were two copies of your dad's book that had bullet holes through it.
CM (00:33:34):
Yeah. Yeah.
SM (00:33:35):
And very bad words underneath the book. So, the feelings were still there. And then, when I go to the wall many times, I do not hear it as much now, but there's three names that always come up that were the bad people. And it if it is the veterans talking, it is Jane Fonda. Who they cannot stand, for obvious reasons, and then, they mentioned your dad and Henry Kissinger. Those three. But then, if it is the anti-war people, it is not Jane Fonda, it is your dad, Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon.
CM (00:34:13):
Right.
SM (00:34:14):
And they throw a little bit of Agnew in there, but they do not say a whole lot about LBJ because of his great society. So, those are just some anecdotes I wanted to share. Why did you drop out of Stanford?
CM (00:34:27):
Oh, largely because of my disenfranchisement with this remarkable country that I do love tremendously. That was 1971, the winter. And I just realized that having... I mean, I personally lived very close to the man who was Secretary of Defense during the lead up of Vietnam War, that getting back to these wounds, whether you want to call it post-traumatic stress syndrome or whatever, that I needed to rediscover my country. That I needed to reinvest in my country. I needed to reinvest in myself. And the only way I could do that was somehow get a new vision of the beauty, of the strength of our people, of our country. And the way I did that was to begin a journey to South America. And I began that with a few friends. And we traveled through Central America, learning Spanish along the way. And eventually, arriving in Colombia where my two friends decided today that their journey, travel journey was over and mine was not. And I continued on that point all the way down to Tierra del Fuego. Been another year and a half on the road. And the more formidable part of that journey for me was working on [inaudible] farm. Worked with [inaudible] Indians. I worked with Chilean dairy farmers. I worked with egg growers, produce people. I have worked on fishing boats, and I was immersed in something that it completely resonated for me. It was food production. For me, it brought together two worlds that I thought were very divergent at that time. One was the political world that I had somewhat grown-up in. The other was the early world that my parents had shown me, which is that of the garden of [inaudible]. My fondest childhood memories are being with my dad and mom in the garden, with him picking a fresh tomato and putting a little salt on it, taking a big bite, the juice rolling down his cheek. My mom is picking asparagus, cutting roses to bring in to our kitchen table. So those two worlds, the early ones and the mid-ones, the land and the politics to me were married in food production. And I realized after two and a half years on the road, I had no education. I had worked a little bit, but I had no education, and that I wanted to formalize that, and went to UC Davis to study plant and soil types. Knowing in the beginning, that I wanted to come out and eventually farm.
SM (00:38:07):
Wow. What a story.
CM (00:38:09):
Well, it really [inaudible]
SM (00:38:12):
Were your parents worried about you being so far away?
CM (00:38:15):
They must have been absolutely worried, I mean, for many, many reasons. And just let me remind you, I arrived in Santiago, Chile in the early days of September 1971. And that was the anniversary of Salvador Allende being the first elected socialist president in Chile.
SM (00:38:39):
Wow.
CM (00:38:40):
And Dad, being the head of the World Bank at that time, certainly knew of the difficulties that were occurring in Chile, and probably could, in his own mind, forecast what future may... how the future may unfold. I know my mom was very worried about my well-being. Of course, there was no communication. There was... Just in terms of getting mail, with my parents sending a letter to the embassy. That was the only way I could get mail. I think I called them infrequently, maybe every six months, like that. But it is so interesting now to have children who are texting and messaging and emailing and phoning, and the degree of communication today is at different level.
SM (00:39:43):
You know, one of the big things that was in the news around the mid-(19)60s was the fact that Governor Rockefeller's son was, I think, down in Brazil and disappeared.
CM (00:39:56):
He did. I recall that.
SM (00:39:56):
Yeah, that was really big in the news. Of course, he was down there to help people. He was...
CM (00:39:59):
Well, I do not know if you saw the movie, Missing, about the coup in Chile. It is a very powerful movie. And to be quite honest, my story could have been similar to that story.
SM (00:40:18):
Wow. I am going to get back to your work with the farm in a couple of minutes here, but correct me if I am ever repeating anything, because I got a series of questions here. I have an order. I do a lot of thinking before I do my interviews.
CM (00:40:35):
I know you do. I can tell, but I am grateful and appreciate it.
SM (00:40:35):
Yeah. And everyone is different, and some are some general questions...
CM (00:40:40):
Make it fun and interesting and insightful for you and for the person you're interviewing, and potentially, for the people reading the book.
SM (00:40:47):
Yeah. And I want to reach students, and high school students, college students with this, as well as the general public. Because I want people to understand where people come from, and to show a little respect for people who they may agree or disagree with. I do not have a whole lot of tolerance for intolerance at times. I understand that you were against the war, but your dad ran. Did you have any major discussions with him at different times about the war, and your differences? And did he listen? Was there a major generation gap between you and your parents? And how about your two sisters and the parents?
CM (00:41:29):
Well, as I mentioned before, Dad, in certain ways, was a master at compartmentalizing. I think he felt in his own vision as a parent of six kids that he needed, in some way, to protect his son and his children, and he did that by not engaging in conversations.
SM (00:41:51):
Okay.
CM (00:41:52):
About Vietnam. The only time I would glean information on that front would be if I had a friend who was well versed in the topic, and that friend was trying to engage Dad in conversation, that was when I could open the window to some of his thoughts on that. And that continued throughout his life. I think, here is the bottom line, between a father and a son, we never lost love for one another. We never lost respect for one another. And I give my mom tremendous credit for being the conduit of love and communication, because that is a natural way to [inaudible] in so many families. And so many of my peers lost their relationship to their father at that time, and never healed. I have friends coming up to me and say even to my dad's dying day, we never were able to reach that point. What a sad misstep. What was the other part of your question?
SM (00:43:01):
Yeah. Was there any difference between how your dad dealt with you and your two sisters?
CM (00:43:06):
I do not think so.
SM (00:43:07):
Okay.
CM (00:43:08):
My sisters are nine and six years older than I am. Really was quite... They were well off to college and gone as I was growing up. But I know that they did not engage either on that topic. Now, let me get to the issue of did my relationship as son of my father affect his decision making? It would be very egotistical for me to say yes, and yet, I do believe that my choice of life and the direction that I have taken in life very much affected him in fact. I think the fact that my sisters and I had friends who were very involved leading the anti-war movement was insightful and [inaudible] on him. He just did not let it be known. That was the problem.
SM (00:44:07):
We talked about the qualities of admitting... Making mistake and the regrets and so forth. But was there ever a feeling on the part of you or your sisters, or maybe even your mom that, if you have a problem with President Johnson over a policy, just resign?
CM (00:44:30):
Well, I think most our reflections on that afterthought there again, just because the age that I was during the event, I would say absolutely. My father was a man of tremendous integrity. And so I think you or I of this generation would say, well, if you feel differently, then you owe it to yourself, number one to your family, and to the nation, to demonstrate agreement by resigning. And I just cannot put myself in his [inaudible] and choose and know what he felt about them. It goes back to this loyalty, which I think his generation must have at a different parameter and definition than I might.
SM (00:45:27):
Just in your own words, could you please, if someone were to come up to you like a high school student and you walk in and someone were to come up to you and say, who was Robert McNamara? And you would describe your father or the leader, or how would you describe him to someone or particularly a young person? And also how would you describe your mom? Because I think your mom is very important here. She is very important in history and they are a team, in my opinion. I look at this, I see a twosome that became one. That is what marriage is supposed to be about. And just so in, how would you define both of them?
CM (00:46:11):
Well, individually first, right?
SM (00:46:13):
Yes.
CM (00:46:16):
I would respond to the question coming from a high school student or another person about who my father was... Is a very, very bright man. And who truly loved humankind. A man who wanted the best for a globe is deeply divided. The seven years that my father spent as Secretary of Defense determined the rest of his life. Yes, he lived from 1980 to the year 2009, lived another 29 years. Well, actually, the time that he left defense in (19)78, that (19)78, (19)88, (19)98, another 40 years to his life. And during those 40 years, his true ambition for the betterment of mankind and society came forward, advanced. He was able to advance that in such a significant way. And very, very few people in the United States understand that respect. And I think that that is a tragedy, a law. He was defined by Vietnam, and yet his defining moment came during the next forty years.
SM (00:48:23):
I think what you just said is very important, Craig. I will let you continue here in a second. Because as a person who believes in student development and believes in human development, and we tell students in college, or hopefully they learn this, that you are constantly evolving as a human being, and it does not stop until the day you die.
CM (00:48:43):
Exactly. And in the case of a leader, it is our society's nature to pigeonhole them to a time of their lives, of greatness, or of tremendous loss. And he was defined. He has been defined by the latter.
SM (00:49:11):
How about your mom?
CM (00:49:16):
My mom, my dad had said, was one of God's loveliest creature. She had a sparkle in her eye. She had very, very beautiful blue eyes, which... I inherited many things from my mom. My eyes, my name Craig was her maiden name. And I am so honored have my name Craig, be in more of the Latin tradition where the mother also shares her name with the offspring. I am so happy to have the name Craig. And I am so moved and touched by her spirit and her connection to Mother Nature. She gifted that to me. It is something that you were very generous commenting on in your letter and our phone call. That is something that I have explored my whole life. And in terms of the educational program, we currently offer to students across California, it is the foundation. It is my foundation, and it is what I do, my own family. It is what I do for students in California and [inaudible].
SM (00:50:39):
And you lead me right into the question is someone to ask. Who is Robert Craig McNamara?
CM (00:50:51):
Robert Craig McNamara is a reflection of both my parents. And a person who has been moved and affected by the history that I have lived true. So although I did not serve in Vietnam, I certainly have been very affected by it. It is a part of me every day. And my goals have been to really help make this world a better place for the individuals at this point in time.
SM (00:51:54):
Did you feel that when you were in that one year at Stanford and maybe your junior and senior in high school, that any of your fellow students get on you for being the son of the person who was running the Vietnam War?
CM (00:52:07):
Absolutely. It was always on my mind. It was always something that I had to demonstrate. Who I was myself. It was a life-altering pressure on me that I had to find out [inaudible] who I was and be that honest person to myself. And yes, I actually felt that in a certain way, that it was remarkable that people allowed me to be who I was and did not spit on, did not take offense, or become violent, because I know how frustrated I have been over our decision to go to war in Iraq. Our decision go to war today. I know the dark side of feelings against our leaders. So I can imagine how people have felt about me. That I was embodiment of my father, but I am not.
SM (00:53:37):
Right.
CM (00:53:39):
And I want to move this forward for one second. Dad, was asked to come to Berkeley...
SM (00:53:46):
And Craig, could you speak up just a little bit too?
CM (00:53:48):
Yep. Dad was asked to come to UC Berkeley, and I thought it was before the [inaudible] War, but you may help me out here. Maybe more in retrospect. And he came to Zellerbach Hall, which the largest hall in Berkeley. And he said he had never been back to Berkeley, his alma mater, in many, many years. He certainly could not come back during the four years because he would have been protested against. And I think because of his World Bank experience and other experiences, he just had not been back to campus. This was a beloved place for him too. Memories of meeting my mom and being a student at Berkeley. So, he was asked to come to Berkeley to speak on a retrospect for the [inaudible] War, and it was packed. The auditorium was absolutely packed with an audience outside. And I was very fearful for his life. And this was recently, this was within the last 10 years. And I felt very on edge in terms of reading the room, reading the audience, and if there was going to be any violent movement towards him. Which is pretty remarkable for me to feel that at this point in my life or in our life. And to be quite honest, his presence and his participation and his, at that point, transparency and honesty, I think really was received by the audience and was warmly received. They may have totally just not liked, but they appreciated the moment.
SM (00:55:46):
Yeah. Well I know Bobby Muller and Bobby Muller was on several panels with your dad over the last 10 years, I believe. And here's a man who came back from Vietnam, very disenchanted. And Bobby was one of the people that said when he came back, he realized that Vietnam or excuse me, that America is not always the good guy. Yet he could be on the stage with your dad. And I know he respected your dad. So that says a lot when Bobby can say really nice things about some of the things that happened to him during that time period.
CM (00:56:22):
This is Bobby Muller?
SM (00:56:23):
Yeah, Bobby Muller.
CM (00:56:24):
And did he serve in Vietnam?
SM (00:56:26):
Yeah. He was the founder of Vietnam Veterans of America. And I believe if you go into YouTube you will see your dad being interviewed by that professor. It is a show that they had and it's a tremendous interview. It is an hour and 10 minutes.
CM (00:56:47):
That is a great one. Do you remember the year of that?
SM (00:56:50):
It had to be the time that he went probably for this speech, because he talked about in retrospect, he was not there-
CM (00:56:56):
It was retrospect.
SM (00:56:59):
Yeah. It was not for [inaudible] War. I would like your comments here. I am up to this point where after Norman Morrison, a Quaker father of three, burned himself only 40 feet from your dad's window at the Pentagon on November 2nd of (19)65. Your dad states in the book, and this is very important. I knew Marge, is it Marge?
CM (00:57:19):
Margie.
SM (00:57:20):
Margie. "I knew Margie and our three children shared many of Morrison's feelings about the war, as did the wives and children of several of my cabinet colleagues. And I believed, I understood, and shared some of his thoughts." I cannot read my writing here. "This was much more Marge and I and the children should have talked about. Yet at moments like this, I often turned inward. Instead, it was a grave weakness. The episode created tension at home that only deepened as dissent and criticism of the war continued to grow."
CM (00:58:10):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
SM (00:58:14):
And that was in the mid-(19)90s when he wrote in retrospect. Or early (19)90s.
CM (00:58:23):
So the touching and reflection there is that he held that inside for all those years. If he could have brought that forward in a memoir earlier, I think it would have provided some healing for our nation. Not a mea culpa that is gone, but it would have... When you let something fester for 25 years, it is just insurmountable. I am proud of him for coming to that point in his life. And I wished for all of us, for me, for our nation, for the Vietnamese, for the men and women of the United States that died and served. For everybody who was touched globally by Vietnam, I wish my father had been able.
SM (00:59:23):
Right. Hold on one second. When you were at UC Davis back in (19)76, obviously you had not been in college since (19)69, did you notice a big difference in the types of students that were there as opposed to the ones at Stanford in (19)69?
CM (00:59:49):
Yes, I did. One of my thoughts... I am trying to remember this one thought that I think I felt that Davis was... I better not say that. I thought that it was very diverse ethnically, but I am a little [inaudible]. Let us not... When I came back, I was very directed at age 24. I knew going in what I wanted to achieve, what degree, and what my career goals were. So that was very well-defined for me. I must admit, my experience at Stanford was a very dynamic fighting one, but incredibly challenging because of the student activities against the war. So that permeated everything I did. I also, in the one thing I very much enjoyed about campus was just looking at a whole educational opportunity. So I immediately looked into theater, literature, just enjoyed in developing myself in things that, in academia and extracurriculars that were very dynamic for me. So that was very different. And [inaudible], I studied two years straight.
SM (01:01:40):
But students were probably since (19)76, they changed a lot too. They were not as activists.
CM (01:01:41):
And I think that is quite true. One of the things that was starting then, that was very formidable for me is that the food movement was just in its infancy when I went to Davis. So many of us who were on the edge and... Who were kind of on the edge and helped create a new vision for our food society. Were they're studying the beginnings of sustainable agriculture. We did not even have that word. And what I remind myself and others, particularly sometimes I have the opportunity to get guest lecture at Berkeley, UC Davis and other places. I remind our colleagues, our students, that these changes that we are enjoying today started 25 and 30 years ago. And so, the fact that we now have CSA Phoenix [inaudible], so now that we have farmer's markets and abundance, that we have incredible writers like Michael Fallon and visionaries like Alice Waters. It's taken us a quarter of a century to get to where we are today. And we mustn't forget that because going to take us another period upon to advance to the next phase.
SM (01:03:06):
How important was Earth Day to you? Because you left in (19)69 and then you were down in, well, in one of the South American countries. But were you aware of what was going on up here in 1970, on April 22? And well, how important was that to you personally?
CM (01:03:25):
When Vietnam was ending or what?
SM (01:03:26):
No, this was Earth.
CM (01:03:28):
Earth Day? I am sorry.
SM (01:03:29):
Yeah, because Gaylord Nelson was the Senator who was pushing, you worked with Dennis Haynes, but it was Gaylord, Senator Nelson that was really the leader on this.
CM (01:03:39):
Right. So, the first Earth Day was April of (19)70...
SM (01:03:41):
1970, April 22.
CM (01:03:44):
Yeah, 1970. So, I was still here in this country. But very formidable. I think where I lost some of the chronology is when I was actually out of the country. Quite a, tens of thousands of miles away and many worlds apart. So, from (19)71 to (197)3, I was more immersed in South American politics society than I was in US or global.
SM (01:04:18):
Right. And I know that Pia Nelson, which is Gaylord's daughter. Is very big in the environmental movement in Wisconsin. I do not know if you have ever met her?
CM (01:04:28):
I have not, but I know of her name.
SM (01:04:31):
Yeah, she is. I interviewed her and of course I just had the celebration. And then Robert Kennedy Jr. I think has been very involved too.
CM (01:04:38):
Very involved. My experience in Washington in those early years, was a very close friendship with the Robert Kennedy family, and a lot of time spent together in Hickory Hill with the Kennedys. With Bobby and Ethel and Kathleen and Joe. Bobby at that point was just a few years younger than I was. But he is such an incredible national spokesman and leader. I so appreciate his vision and follow.
SM (01:05:13):
Yeah, he has left a legacy with his kids. They are all doing great things. Now I am into the section that, I know you are going to enjoy, and that is talking about Sierra Orchards and some of the work you have done since (19)76. Could you talk a little bit about your dreams when you purchased the land that you now oversee? Because from what I have read, is you did a trip around the country first. See if you can find the best spot.
CM (01:05:40):
That I said.
SM (01:05:40):
And then you came back to your home area, basically, or near your home area.
CM (01:05:45):
My adopted home. But I had been here, I find myself that I arrived in [inaudible] without anything. I think I had a backpack, no bicycle, no car, no living space. And set a foot to knock on doors to find, in a college town, to find a place to live. Obviously, I did and bought a used bike. And that is how I made my rounds. I became, while I was studying, I became a beekeeper. And so I would carry wood from the lumber yard out to the house and make beehives and carry on there. So the question is my vision, once I started Sierra Orchard?
SM (01:06:31):
Yes.
CM (01:06:34):
Knowing as I did, from this journey to Latin America. Working on veggie farms, getting a little bit of an education. When I realized, that the inclusion of that was that I needed several things. Ultimately a farm, and more importantly, to learn how to farm. And so when I finished up, I had a little Datsun pickup truck and a soil auger. That is the device where you drill down into the soil to see how mother nature has created this incredible living environment. The beginning of everything. I drove across the United States in a zig pattern, stopping off at farms Colorado, [inaudible], Arkansas and back east. I realized that the best environment for me would be right where I had come from. Very soiled, by the water, the markets, the population, future. And I did that. But then there was that other ingredient that I needed, which was the experience. I thank God, I met the most incredible mentor of my life Chun Laing, Chinese farmer. And he took me under his wing in a large commercial operation, and I worked with Chun and for Chun for three years. And started a produce stand, did direct marketing, grew [inaudible] melons, shipped them back east. Suffered all the ups and downs of a young farmer. And decided at the conclusion of that, that truck farming, which is vegetables, [inaudible], et cetera. Was not for me. I needed a crop that had lesser perishability, that I would have more control over in the marketplace. One harvest and walnut fit all of that criteria. So in 1980, together with the help of my father, we bought what is today, Sierra Orchards. The name comes from the fact that I stand on the edge of the field and look to the east, see those beautiful mountains, Sierra mountains. That mom and dad and sisters and my friends used to hike in when I was six years old, eight years old. So, I also realized early, in that process, that I am just a steward of this plant. That it too shall, as it has turned over in second generations, but I too will pass it on. So, my goal was to be as sustainable at food as I could be. I started off as a conventional grower, which means I used the grow seed of petrochemical based materials to insecticide or herbicide. And about 10 years into our farming operation, transitioned to organic. But I always remind myself and others, who might listen. That I do believe in organics, but I believe it is a smaller piece of a much larger, complex fabric. And that fabric, I will call sustainable agriculture. That is the direction, our nation needs to go in and our world. Agricultural food production needs to go in.
SM (01:10:02):
In a sense, you have taken some of the qualities that your dad had, the quality of service to one's nation, and he did it as a politician in Washington and in other capacities. And you have done it in the environment by serving, by creating healthy foods. And one thing I noticed in reading about your background, these things stand out. Producing healthy foods, sustaining the environment or respect for the environment we live in. And then of course teaching the next generation these same qualities.
CM (01:10:37):
Well, thank you for saying that. I really appreciate that. And that is, I would say, the substance of my life. And there was a motto that many of us have grown up with, and that is 'those who have been given, much as expected.'
SM (01:10:54):
Yes.
CM (01:10:55):
I would change that motto a little bit, because I think that may have fit (19)40s and (19)50s, maybe early (19)60s. I think today what we need to recognize is, we all need to bring each other up and bring the best out of our brothers [inaudible] today. That is my goal, because I have been given a lot, therefore, I have to give a lot. Yeah, I think that is one side. I get a lot, I get a huge amount from the work that I have engaged in. With students and professionals in the state of California. It's just a tremendous conduit of moving forward together. That is my goal. Not that I have anything particularly unique or special to impart, other than by bringing us together to do the best job environmentally for our state, for our country.
SM (01:12:01):
Well, your mom and dad, your mom would definitely be very proud of you. And your dad obviously saw this, and that is the Farms program. If I am a college administrator and I had experienced just taking students to different places. If I was working at UC Davis, I would be coming to your place every year.
CM (01:12:20):
Oh, thank you.
SM (01:12:20):
Yeah, no, because you are exactly what we are talking about here. And could you talk about how, I think your wife has involved in this too, the Farms program. Explain how you had this hands-on experience for high school students and kind of the impact that this has had on many of them, as they have gone on with their lives.
CM (01:12:37):
Absolutely. Well, now thank you for mentioning that Farms was our flagship program that Julie and I started way back when, in nineteen ninety four-ish, I believe, or earlier. We would bring students out to the farm and feed them. My wife is an entomologist, that is insects. So she did a great job in engaging students with integrated best management. And the wonders of how, as a food producer, we can be in balance with nature. And there really truly is a long tradition, hundreds of years old, maybe thousands old. Of how we can get our natural environment in sync. So, that has just been one of the greatest enjoyable parts of our lives, together as the man and wife. And parents raising children.
SM (01:13:41):
And you are also, you like being called a farmer.
CM (01:13:45):
I love it. When it comes time to fill out that tax form, farmer. Because to me, it resonates back to that point that I made earlier, farming is political. Food security is the most important single issue facing every man, wife, and child in this globe. And it pains me tremendously to know that as a globe, we are suffering every day from malnutrition and in a globe where we have the ability to provide. And I am going to jump forward to another mentor and a person who I think has been a guiding light. And that is Michael Paulin. And Michael has said many remarkable things, but one very simple one is he says, "Vote with your fork." And what he means by that is, if you are in charge of making policy decisions. Buy what you choose to buy and what you choose to eat. Now that gets really complicated because you could say, "Oh, well, some people might say that organic foods or healthier food is more expensive." I do not think so. My wife and I cook fresh foods every night. And yes, we buy organic, but we also spend the time doing the food preparation. It does not matter whether it is an organic carrot or a sustainably grown carrot. Taking that time to eat healthy fresh food. I believe, apparently, that all of us can do that.
SM (01:15:31):
Yeah, you just got to have the willpower.
CM (01:15:35):
I think it is wherewithal and the willpower. Yeah.
SM (01:15:38):
Yeah. You also received a very prestigious award, and I will not read what they said on the award, but you won the Leopold Conservation Award. And of course, Also Leopold and I took students to meet Taylor Nelson for the first time in Washington, and at the very end of our session. One of the students asked, "Well, who did you look up to? And who do you suggest we ought to read?" And he said, "Aldo Leopold."
CM (01:16:05):
Ah, that is good.
SM (01:16:07):
And of course he went on to talk about overpopulation, which was something that he thought the world has forgotten in his plea to help the environment. But that must have been quite an honor? You got that in 2007.
CM (01:16:20):
It was a tremendous honor, and I want to just share that honor with all of our family and farm workers and staff at the Center for Land-Based Food Learning. Who helped create that environment to win that award. There's no one award goes to one person. It just has taken so many people engaged in that. And I have a funny little recent vignette. Our youngest member of our family, Emily, has just started up college and she was very excited. She has taken a course in environmental study. So, I got this text message, not a phone call, but a text message that you will not believe. We were reading this work by an incredible nationalist. I know you have never heard of him. His name is Aldo Leopold. So I texted her back and said, "Oh my God, you were right." You have discovered something absolutely remarkable. Now, you may not have known or remembered, but I did receive the Aldo Leopold Award. So, the beauty is you bring these people into the world and then they discover. So, she is in this wonderful discovery phase of her life that there is nothing sweeter than that. Nothing better.
SM (01:17:45):
Is that the one at Brown?
CM (01:17:46):
She is at Brown, yeah.
SM (01:17:47):
Well, that is a great school. I got some general questions here. Now, these are just some questions I have asked a lot of the people that I have interviewed. The Boomer generation is often, and that we see it today, is often attacked as the generation that curated all the problems in our society today. I know in 1994, when Newt Gingrich came into power, he made commentaries about the period of the (19)60s, the (19)60s generation. And we certainly see a lot on Fox today. [inaudible 01:18:20] Governor Huckabee oftentimes says it. I know when John McCain was running for President, he made some comments about Hillary. Even though they were close friends, she was from the (19)60s, kind of in a negative way. But the question is this, the generation, many people are on the right or conservatives. Are saying that the generation are just responsible for the drug culture, the sexual freedoms, the breakup of the family, the divorce rate, the lessening of the influence of religion and God in their lives. Of course, they talk about rock and roll music along here, disrespect for authority, support for the welfare state, anything they can in that period, that created an ambience that has continued and gone on to be negative. But what are your thoughts when you hear that?
CM (01:19:15):
Well, let me just delve into what you have just said. So, are you saying that those people who are critical are not part of the Baby Boomer generation?
SM (01:19:29):
Oh, no. Some of them are.
CM (01:19:30):
That is my point.
SM (01:19:33):
Some of them are, and of course some are more recent [inaudible] cultures of the world.
CM (01:19:37):
Okay. But there is a huge section that we are all together in that.
SM (01:19:43):
Yes.
CM (01:19:44):
Just a minute. This is us. If you are criticizing, you are criticizing something that you were part of. And so help bring us together. If we are polarized and we are so polarized in this nation. What is it that is going to take us to come together? I continue to believe that diversity is our greatest gift. That by having diversity of ethnic backgrounds and diversity of belief, that is our greatest gift. If it severs us, then we have not achieved, then we have not been successful. So, let us move forward and maybe move to the side of the agenda. Some of the things that have polarized us in the past, and let us just put them in a parking lot. Take some time out, take gun control, maybe even some very, very significant issues that you and I and others feel so fervently about. Write to light, maybe let us just take that issue and put it to the side and look at other issues like food security, malnutrition, war across the world. And try to solve some of these incredibly complex issues. That potentially will tear this world apart, not just the United States.
SM (01:21:13):
It's as if that, and this is, I have seen it all throughout-throughout my years in the university, too. That John Kerry ran for President in 19-, excuse me, 2004. Okay. It is the (19)60s all over again. The divisions over the Vietnam War, those that said he lied about his war record and all the other things.
CM (01:21:32):
That to me is a tragedy. We are so mired in that, and maybe that is the origin of your question. But if it is the origin, and if there is some truth to that, stand up, take us... Let us say we are all participating. We are all contributed to that. So, I had a position to counter someone else back in 1968. For crying out loud, it is time to move on. Why is that such, why is that dividing us today? Maybe that is the answer to your question.
SM (01:22:07):
Yeah. And it is also, you cannot even use the word Vietnam or quagmire because if you use those two words, they immediately think of Vietnam. And of course, we all went through when Reagan became President. And we are back and we're going to bring back the (19)50s kind of mentality again. And then you had Ron, President Bush the first saying that the Vietnam syndrome is over. And well, what is the syndrome? It is like, cannot get over it. And even as President Obama, he tries to separate himself from the (19)60s, yet his opponents say he is the epitome of the (19)60s. It has returned. So it keeps going. And I think you have raised some good points.
CM (01:22:51):
Part of it is, why are people so mean-spirited right now? Why is it? I mean, certainly throughout history, we have had leaders, politicians, religious leaders, et cetera. Who have been mean spirited. But why is it to the degree that it is today? And I do not have that answer, but I look for it.
SM (01:23:23):
Yeah. I think we got to look for the better, betterness. The better of all of us or better souls, so to speak. When did the (19)60s begin? In your opinion. And when did it end?
CM (01:23:38):
When did it begin in my life? Or when did...
SM (01:23:41):
In your opinion, when, just your thoughts. When do you think the (19)60s began and when do you think it ended?
CM (01:23:49):
I mean, do you want a feeling? Do you want a date?
SM (01:23:54):
It could be anything. People have responded in so many different ways from specific events to...
CM (01:24:00):
I got to say, it is funny you mentioned this. I first remember hearing the Rolling Stones, I cannot get no satisfaction. I think the (19)60s started me when I heard that song.
SM (01:24:13):
Okay. That was a great song.
CM (01:24:15):
A great song. I do not know what year that hit, but I was probably...
SM (01:24:20):
(19)67.
CM (01:24:20):
(19)67?
SM (01:24:27):
Yeah. It was (19)66, (19)67, because my mom used to watch As The World Turns. And they were playing that song in the background on As The World Turns. Then I remember saying, "Oh my God, now the Rolling Stones have gone mainstream."
CM (01:24:45):
Well, now that, so maybe that is not. Maybe the (19)60s started a lot earlier than the that.
SM (01:25:04):
Just your opinion.
CM (01:25:04):
Yeah. And when did the (19)60s end? I would say the (19)60s ended with the death of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King.
SM (01:25:16):
In (19)68? Yeah.
CM (01:25:19):
I am going to tell you, when the (19)60s began, it is interesting. I just reflected on it. I have these downers, but I think the (19)60s began when President Kennedy was killed.
SM (01:25:24):
(19)63.
CM (01:25:42):
I think that is when the (19)60s began. And I think, and they ended when Martin Luther and Bobby... And I hate to bookend that by those deaths. I am not a dark person.
SM (01:25:49):
Would that be the watershed moment?
CM (01:25:51):
[inaudible].
SM (01:25:52):
Would that be your watershed moment, too?
CM (01:25:59):
To be quite honest. I think what we are talking about, my biggest watershed moment was when my dad resigned to take care of himself.
SM (01:26:08):
Okay.
CM (01:26:09):
I actually, physically remember a crowd moving out of my mind, out of my body. Remember a dark, moving from...
SM (01:26:27):
Were you in the room when he did make an announcement or were you, saw it on TV?
CM (01:26:35):
I am pretty sure I was out of, not in.
SM (01:26:45):
And in 1963 with the assassination, where were you when you first heard it?
CM (01:26:51):
I knew exactly where I was. I was, we were at a friend’s school and, was it? It was a Friday? Was not it?
SM (01:27:00):
Yes, it was. November 22, was a Friday.
CM (01:27:02):
Yeah. We were going to have our first [inaudible 01:27:07]. Does that sound like something out of the (19)60s?
SM (01:27:07):
Yeah.
CM (01:27:12):
[inaudible]. I was very, very excited. I was always on the dance committee or on the civic. I was very excited about this event. And I think the principal may have called me to the office, prior to announcing it over the PA system. And I just was seven, six. We all were, and that began, I remember my mom picking me up and taking me home. And we had this wonderful golden retriever, who was my dog. And we just lied in bed. And then, that night we loaded into the Galaxy car and drove out to the NIH. Where the, because my dad received Kennedy, and the body well... The autopsy was going on, I was in the car waiting outside, that night.
SM (01:28:14):
Oh my gosh. That is when the plane came back from Dallas with president or Vice President Johnson and now President Johnson.
CM (01:28:23):
That is right.
SM (01:28:25):
That was must have been trying, and most people watched it on TV. But you were probably at the events, were not you?
CM (01:28:30):
I was right there, at the hospital. As I said, in the darkness, in the car. My mom was there at my dad's side.
SM (01:28:40):
Wow. And did you go to the Rotunda?
CM (01:28:44):
I did, yes. And then of course, to the grave site.
SM (01:28:45):
Were you with the people that walked from downtown to the Arlington?
CM (01:29:02):
I do not think I was involved in that.
SM (01:29:05):
As a young boy. I am getting into this because it is a very, you are the only person I really interviewed that had the experience of being this close to this particular event. When you were at the site at Arlington, it was on TV, everybody saw it. But what went through your mind? How old were you? You were only...
CM (01:29:26):
13.
SM (01:29:28):
What is going through the mind of a 13 year old that his dad's boss? Because you are probably thinking that your dad's boss, has just been murdered, in Dallas. What is going through your mind?
CM (01:29:46):
I think quite honestly, I probably may have been seen it more through his reflections than my own. Because we had, in my lifetime, I had never experienced that. I had never experienced a violent death. I had never experienced the present in that fashion, and it was absolutely unfathomable. So, to see the sadness overcome my mom and dad. And particularly my dad, because he was in the limelight. He was so involved, picking out grave sites. And I mean, with the family, he was very close to those. To the Jack's family and the President's, and to Robert Kennedy's family. So, I think it was just the towns' grief, that had no bottom to it.
SM (01:30:48):
If you were to look at the generation, the Boomers. Do you like the term Boomer?
CM (01:31:02):
Interestingly enough, I am a person who has many opinions and I am happy to share them. I am not sure I have an opinion about it.
SM (01:31:10):
That is okay.
CM (01:31:11):
I am not sure I have an opinion about whether it is just something that I have grown up with. I just, I must admit I accept it.
SM (01:31:17):
I had one person who I interviewed, he said, "If you mentioned Boomer one more time, the interview's over."
CM (01:31:26):
He was clearly, worked up about it.
SM (01:31:27):
Yeah, because he was a little older than the Boomers.
CM (01:31:30):
It is one way or the other. I mean, maybe because... And this would totally be an inaccuracy, but the thought of as elitist, it cannot be. Because that gets back to my point of we are the Boomers. How many of us are there?
SM (01:31:48):
There is 74 million.
CM (01:31:50):
Okay. So if you're a Boomer, take responsibility for yourself. Take responsibility for our society, and take responsibility for the good and the bad and decisions that we have made.
SM (01:32:06):
You are right. And I had one person that mentioned to me that he thought Boomers were white men or maybe white women, and that the people of color were not included. I said, "Oh, no, boomers are everybody who was born in that period and were American." I do not even...
CM (01:32:19):
That is my point.
SM (01:32:20):
I have been dealing, been interviewing three Asian American scholars. Because you do not hear much about Asian Americans during this period. So, when you look at this generation, are there some qualities or characteristics that you like and dislike? I know you cannot generalize about a whole generation because there's 74 million.
CM (01:32:39):
I think we are very thoughtful. I think that we are [inaudible]. I think that by and large, we want the best for our society and for our global society. I think we have very strong values, and somehow, we have allowed. Now we have allowed a divisive to come in for our world and we have got to take that back. And we probably are, I say every day that it's the next generation will be this. And they certainly will. But you know what? It's our responsibility to heal. To heal our society, to kill what is wrong with our world things and just rely on ourselves.
SM (01:33:41):
Many within the generation felt that they were the most unique generation American history when they were young because they were going to end war-
CM (01:33:48):
I think we are-
SM (01:33:50):
... racism, sexism. Your thoughts on those people that may have thought that they were unique.
CM (01:33:56):
Well, I am not going to pass judgment on people who thought they were unique. I would just caution us to look at before and after generations. I think our parents' generation, credibly had the wherewithal to survive tremendous difficulties because they were all very aware of. And I think this generation of young people is remarkably all their talents and some of their downsides. As a parent, I think some of us have raised a bit of an entitled generation that is not going to serve us and I do not think will serve them well. They will come to grips with it.
SM (01:34:47):
Yeah. We talked earlier about the generation gap between parents and children and we have discussed that. But in a book called The Wounded Generation, that came out in 1980, in a panel discussion, a symposium with five major Vietnam veterans and one of them being Bobby Mueller and Phil Caputo, who wrote the Rumor of War-
CM (01:35:10):
I know Phil well.
SM (01:35:11):
... yeah, and then the Senator of Virginia now, Jim Webb and a couple others. They talked about a lot of different issues and one of them was about the generation gap in service. And I think it was Senator Webb, but he was not senator then, of course, and he made a comment that he felt that the generation gap really was between those who went to war and those who did not. He said yeah, there was the gap between parents and children, but-
CM (01:35:46):
He was good.
SM (01:35:46):
... he said there were those who went to war and there were those who did not and so, within the generation, there was a generation gap. And he felt very strongly about that. And he went so far as to say, we look at the (19)60s generation with President Kennedy and the Peace Corps and Vista and all these service ideas, but he says, it really is not the service generation because they would have all gone to war if they were the service generation, when their nation called. Give your thoughts on that.
CM (01:36:19):
Well, I must agree with him in terms of this sub-gap, and I think that is well defined by those who serve in war and those who did not, and if they served in conscientious objector roles, or left the country, or served in other capacities. Yeah, I am not sure I have a lot more to add.
SM (01:36:53):
The two qualities here that had really mentioned to every single person starting with Senator McCarthy in 1996, was the equality within this generation that they just did not trust, because in most cases they had witnessed so many leaders lying to them. People that were observant and in the know that President Eisenhower lied to the American public when he said that the U2 was not a spy plane and it was.
CM (01:37:28):
Yeah.
SM (01:37:29):
The Gulf of Tonkin with President Johnson, history has shown that that was not really a truthful beginning of a war. And we had people like Senator Morris and others challenging the president right from the get-go. We had Watergate with Richard Nixon. We had so many leaders that students, at this time, just did not trust anybody in positions of responsibility, whether they were a religious leader, a corporate leader, a university leader, a political leader. Do you feel that that quality, that is often labeled within this generation, is a plus or a negative?
CM (01:38:08):
Well, let us talk about why it is that way first. Then let us apply a plus or negative. One of the reasons it is that way is because of the technology of the time in the media. We had never, correct me if I am wrong, experienced a way of communicating with each other that would get that word out. And of course, today you look at our ability through all of our social networking is hugely more engaged in that way. But were not we one of the first generations, and was not Vietnam one of the first occasions where we had information, right, wrong or indifferent, that we as a generation could determine whether it was truthful or not? And so that gave us the substrate or that gave us the foundation or the infrastructure to then make a judgment and I think that is what you are moving towards. We may have been in a unique position. I am not saying that our generation of boomers is any more unique than other generations, but we had a unique opportunity to view things. And yes, I think we did challenge. And I think that we did develop a significant amount of mistrust. Was that a plus or a minus? I harken back to this, "It does not really matter, the fact is we are living with it." So, I am a much more engaged person in terms of... I want to attempt to understand history so that I change our future course, but I want us to engage and make a difference today. So, I am less prone to say it was a plus or a minus, and I would rather say, "Come on. Let us get going. Let us get going in community gardens. Let us get going in getting people out of prison. Let us get going in improving society rather than being divisive."
SM (01:40:23):
Excellent response. The other one was in the issue of healing. I took a group of students that are your daughter's age, back in 1995, to Washington DC, to meet Senator Edmond Musky. We spent two hours with him and our Leadership On The Road programs. And the students came up with the questions, because they had seen videos of 1968 and all the divisions in America at that time and they knew that he was the vice-presidential running lead. And I interviewed Fred Harris and I did not know that it was between him, Fred Harris, and Edmond Musky and it was decided, right there in Chicago. But the point I am trying to get at here is that they saw the divisions, and so they came up with a question. They wanted Senator Musky to respond. And this was the question, "Due to the tremendous divisions that took part in America in the 1960s, the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops or against the troops, do you feel that all these extreme divisions, including the burnings of the cities..." They went on and on and on about all the negative stuff, the assassinations of President Kennedy and then the two that were killed in 1968. "Do you feel that the boomer generation, like the Civil War generation will go to its grave not healing? They will be bitter?" And we are not talking about everybody now, but those that were involved in all these movements and the divisions and the battles that were fought, that the boomer generation has an issue with healing?
CM (01:42:16):
No, I do not feel that we will go to our grave divided. I mean there is so many layers. You have asked very good questions. All your questions are good, but the final one, because it has to do with our sense of the future, if we cannot depend on it, but you're talking about internally, as a boomer generation.
SM (01:42:47):
Some people thought I should have paraphrased this by those who went to Vietnam, the three plus million who served and those who were in the anti-war movement. Some people say, if you really ask that question that way, then that might be a different answer, but-
CM (01:43:02):
I hope I am not naive on answering the question. I do not believe that that we will remain divide upon. I hope that is the case. I feel a tremendous sense of grief and loss over how our men were received when they came back from Vietnam. I think that is a stain on our national wellbeing and I have worked in my own personal life to understand that and to heal as best I can, and so-
SM (01:43:52):
Do you think your dad healed?
CM (01:43:57):
No, I do not think he healed. No, I think he was alone.
SM (01:44:00):
If he was an individual, it might be a person by person response to that question.
CM (01:44:05):
No, I do not think that he ever recovered from that. As hard as he worked to improve the lives of men and women and children around the world, he visited every country and every leader. And he went to many school sites and agricultural sites, attempting to bring prosperity to folks. I do not-
SM (01:44:40):
You have been to the wall in Washington?
CM (01:44:42):
I have.
SM (01:44:43):
I would like your response when you first saw it, thinking of all the things that may have come to your mind. And Jan Scruggs wrote the book To Heal A Nation, and honestly, the wall was built to heal the families that lost loved ones in the war and to heal the Vietnam veterans and their families who went through so much. And it was to be a non-political entity. That was their goal and so forth. But he also said in the book that he hoped that it would heal the nation too, even beyond the veterans, and be kind of a first step. First off, what's your first reaction when you saw the wall for the first time and your thoughts on whether it has played any part in healing the nation that Jan was talking?
CM (01:45:38):
Well, I must say, very honestly, that a few years ago, I could not have had this conversation with you, because of what I mentioned to you. Just whether one calls it post-traumatic stress, whether one calls it the deep wound scars of Vietnam, I too have been scarred by them, and I say that humbly, because I did not fight in it. But I do think that in our lives that we are scarred by events because of the various roles and actions that we have taken or not taken or have been taken by someone close to us. So, I have experienced a cathartic experience with a very important group in my life, that included a Vietnam vet that I very much respect. And for me that was, I am not sure healing is the right word necessarily, but catharsis is, so it was an evolution. It was a time when I could reveal and dig very deep into those ones that I have played. Therefore, it has helped me heal, because literally I would weep in this conversation had I not had that experience. So back to your question about the wall. My first experience at the wall was prior to this catharsis, and it was the total breaking down for me of experience. And I happened to be there I think, at twilight or in the evening, so it was very alone, very humbling. But I do. Moving towards what Jan Scruggs was saying, as a healing experience for our nation, I hope it is. I hope the true anger and our own personal experiences, we can move forward.
SM (01:47:55):
Do you know when your dad went there for the first time?
CM (01:47:58):
No, I do not. There is all sorts of stories relating to that and his first visit. I do not know if you have read Paul Hendrickson's work?
SM (01:48:12):
Yes, I did. I interviewed him for my book.
CM (01:48:14):
Oh, you did?
SM (01:48:15):
Yeah.
CM (01:48:20):
I have had an interesting experience with Paul, when he started his book, Dad called all of his friends and acquaintances to, " Please cooperate to the degree that you would like with this author. I give my go ahead." And I think as Paul's documents and manuscript matured, Dad realized it was something that he no longer wanted to cooperate with. And Paul had been out to our home here in California and stayed with my wife and I, as he was doing his investigative work. And of any author, I think the amount of research that he did on the family and the root of Dad down there, were vast and it is a fascinating piece. And Paul blends fact and fiction and creates a story, so one has to interpret that. But I moved away from my relationship with Paul, at that time, when I realized the direction he was taking the book. And I actually wrote Paul said that I did not give permission to interviews in it. And that caused, as you can imagine, a real rift in our relationship, which we have subsequently healed.
SM (01:49:51):
Yeah, I think I interviewed him six years ago. I think something like that, so he is a pen.
CM (01:49:58):
Yeah. We are back in communication. I have always respected Paul. I always appreciated his writing. I think he is a great writer.
SM (01:50:10):
Yeah, he wrote a book on the South too.
CM (01:50:11):
Yeah.
SM (01:50:13):
Speaking of books, what books did you read when you were growing up, that had really an influence on you? And what did your dad and mom read?
CM (01:50:21):
Oh, my God. My dad's bookstand next to his bed was like the Leaning Tower of Pisa. It was just unbelievable. Off the top of [inaudible], my mom and dad had a huge appreciation for art and for music, so I grew up with a lot of art books, of the well-known world artists, and a lot of both concertos and orchestras and jazz music. So those are some of the early ones that I remember.
SM (01:51:16):
Yeah. And we all know that President Kennedy was really influenced by Michael Harrington's book, The Other America.
CM (01:51:23):
Right.
SM (01:51:24):
And of course, I assumed when I read that, I immediately had to read it and I did. It might be I have got a first edition of that book now.
CM (01:51:31):
I apologize [inaudible].
SM (01:51:33):
Yeah. And I had all your dad's books by the way.
CM (01:51:35):
Oh, congratulations.
SM (01:51:37):
And I have read all of them. I am a bibliophile. It has been many years since I read some of the earlier ones. I think we have gone over a little bit here. Can we have ten more minutes and then that will be it.
CM (01:51:53):
Let us stop at 10 [inaudible].
SM (01:51:54):
Yeah, because-
CM (01:51:55):
You have done a fantastic job. And I really feel honored to speak with you and to know the background that you have put into all of this.
SM (01:52:02):
Well, this is a first time effort for me. And I feel funny being saying I am an author because I have been a college administrator my whole life. But I love history and I am a bibliophile. I have about 10,000 books.
CM (01:52:15):
Good for you. I hope you got them well [inaudible].
SM (01:52:17):
Well, what I am planning on doing is creating a... I have talked to the Cazenovia College, which is a small school outside Casnovia, New York, where my parents met. And my parents went to school there in (19)39 to (19)41, before my dad went off to war. And I went to Sydney Binghamton as an undergrad and then I went to Ohio State to grad school, but I want to create a center for the city of the boomer generation there. And I am willing to give them all my books as long as they create a center, hire a professor to run it, and they will get all my tapes and they will get all my memorabilia. They will get everything, as long as they stamp my parents' name and all. I have the same feeling toward my parents that you do toward yours, because I owe everything to them and way beyond the fact that I would not be here without them. But they helped form me and shape me so-
CM (01:53:19):
Well, that is wonderful. That is very generous of you.
SM (01:53:20):
Well, I am hoping it is up to the university now to follow through and so we will see what happens. I got only really two more questions and one of them though, there is sections to it. These are quotes that have had effect on a lot of boomers in the generation. And I would just like your immediate responses to these quotes that were well known, particularly in the (19)60s and seventies. By Any Means Necessary by Malcolm X.
CM (01:53:56):
I understood it.
SM (01:53:59):
Do you think it symbolized taken, creating violence in your own hand? A lot of people-
CM (01:54:10):
Yeah. Here's how it resonated with me and how I acted upon it. As a 17-year-old, I left high school the winter of my [inaudible] year and worked in Harlem, at the Street Academy program that run by the Urban League. And I worked at Charles Evans Hughes High School on the lower West Side. I understood that quote. I understood what young blacks were going through and I tried to work within the system to bring change.
SM (01:54:43):
Okay. Two very important ones from that inaugural speech by President Kennedy, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." And the second one that I think is equally important, because many people believe it was the precursor to everything that is followed, particularly in Vietnam, " We will bear any burden and pay any price for the guarantee of liberty and freedom." So, I am going to the full length of the quotes, but those are two very important quotes from JFK.
CM (01:55:12):
Yeah, they very much were. And the first one I remember fondly, because although I was not a Quaker, I was going to a Quaker school with two of my friends, so we would have Friday meetings as students, which was an assembly of quiet. And I remember standing up in one of the meetings and saying, "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you do for your country." It was very profound. That was something that everybody knew. It was familiar. But it was moving and I thought I would share it, quiet meaning firm. And the other one is I think something that we lived by and it is a guiding light for us.
SM (01:56:03):
That is like a cold war. We're in the Cold War.
CM (01:56:08):
Yes.
SM (01:56:08):
Yeah. This is a quote from The Women's Movement and they use it as their central quote, "All politics is person."
CM (01:56:19):
I would agree very quickly, because to me what that means is that we all need to be engaged in politics. And politics as I have found in my own life, can be politics of the soil, of the land, politics of food, politics of health, politics of obesity, politics of social justice. I totally can.
SM (01:56:45):
How about, "I have a dream." Of course, we all know that was Dr. King.
CM (01:56:46):
I think that is both for societal as well as the individual folk.
SM (01:57:11):
And this is a paraphrasing of something that Muhammad Ali said, "I had no reason to go off to a war in Vietnam, and kill yellow people, when there is little care for black people on the home front."
CM (01:57:26):
Because of my personal experiences that I have related to, I understand.
SM (01:57:32):
Do you agree with that?
CM (01:57:34):
I do not agree with it. I understand-
SM (01:57:37):
Oh, okay.
CM (01:57:37):
... where it is coming from.
SM (01:57:40):
Yeah. "Tune in, turn on, drop out." Timothy Leary.
CM (01:57:45):
Certainly, part of my generation did not agree with it. Interestingly enough, I was back in Washington about two weeks ago and there in the National Art Gallery, I saw that theory in black and white photographic exhibit by Allen Kingsbury [inaudible].
SM (01:58:17):
And this is a quote that Bobby Kennedy used in his Indianapolis speech, which was a quote from another person from the 19th century, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?"
CM (01:58:38):
I think I have faith and I think both my friendship with [inaudible] parents have been [inaudible].
SM (01:58:48):
I mean, I am losing you. I cannot hear you.
CM (01:58:49):
I think from my friendship [inaudible]
SM (01:58:57):
Pressed it. Okay, and taping on two tape recorders. And of course, a lot of this is going to be about you, but it is also a lot on your dad too. You okay now?
CM (01:59:06):
I am ready to go.
SM (01:59:08):
How did you become who you are, with respect to talking about your growing up years before you went off to college? What was it like going to high school and those early influences? And of course, you can talk about your dad and mom at this time too.
CM (01:59:25):
So, are we focusing a little bit at the end of middle school and on to high school, or [inaudible] high school?
SM (01:59:34):
Basically high school.
CM (01:59:35):
My high school was a continuation of football friends who were in Washington DC, which for me was a remarkable experience, because I came from Ann Arbor, Michigan as a 10 year old and went to the elementary school with my friends. And I came into the school system with a reading problem, a significant dyslexia problem that, at that age, at that time, was not really well known. It was a large umbrella that covered many different parts of that learning disorder. So it was a lot of work for me. Getting to high school was a dynamic challenge. Sidwell Friends really did a remarkable job in assisting me and creating an environment that was very supportive. So, in ninth grade with all the excitement of sports and a solid education, I was really in tune. And a good friend of mine had left Sidwell Friends at the end of eighth grade. And I said, "Well, where did you go, Frank?" And he said, "Well, I went to this place called St. Paul's School." And what I did not realize was that he was prepared for this by his father and probably grandfather and it was a family tradition. And he said, "You got to try this. You got to try this." I said, "Well, what is this?" He said, "Well, it's the prep school. “I said, "I am really happy here at Sidwell Friends. I have got all my friends and sports." He said, "No. No. You got to try it." So, I left Sidwell at the end of ninth grade and went to St. Paul in [inaudible] for the remaining years of High School. It was a definite road not taken for me ever before. It was a very divergent road in my upbringing. My mom and dad had always raised us with a real foundation, I think, of social justice, of appreciation for, I am going to say the common good, the common man, for society. And I did not know what I was getting into in this interesting environment that St. Paul School provided. It was an incredibly challenging academic environment, especially for me. And it was the environment that, to be quite honest, myself, I was under prepared for and overwhelmed by. So what one normally does is learn how to compensate. My compensation was through my communication with people and my endeavors in on the athletics field. So those were the areas that I really excelled in and had a very, very difficult time struggling at Camp Cedar.
SM (02:02:43):
What years were you there?
CM (02:02:46):
That is a good question. I think that I began that school in 1965.
SM (02:02:49):
Okay.
CM (02:02:54):
And I moved with the years. I was born in (19)50, so in (19)65, I would have been 15, and I graduated from St. Paul's, 1969.
SM (02:03:08):
Yeah. What was it like growing up as your home base? Because your dad was working for President Kennedy and while your father was Secretary of Defense from (19)61 to (19)67, before he headed off to the World Bank, what was it like? In all of these roles that he played, did you feel there was any pressure that your dad was a very... They called him one the best and the brightest, as David Halberstan had written in his book. Did you ever feel that when you had that visible a person like your dad, who was very accomplished that you could not meet his standards and you were trying to? Or did you just want to get away to find your own identity?
CM (02:03:58):
You have covered a broad brush of ideas with the- A broad brush of ideas with the suggestions there. So let us look at them one by one. Pressures that a son feels from his father or a child feels from their parents. There cannot be anything more traditional than that. And so, yes, of course I really did have felt that throughout my life. And it's a wonderful realization at certain times in your life when you realize you can appreciate what your parents have done, appreciate leadership that they have provided in this case to their country, to their families, to their children. But yes, I felt a tremendous struggle that at times I was age appropriately unaware of. But let me just go back to the first feelings of moving to Washington DC. You have got to understand, I was raised in Ann Arbor, Michigan, but my whole connection was with nature from riding bikes to making dams, creeks, to building tree houses that have been out all day long with my mom whistling the special family whistle to let me know that dinner was ready. My life in the fifties and early (19)60s, one of edible connection with this dynamic course, which ultimately has changed my life, which is nature in food system. So coming to Washington DC was, I was an excited kid. I was 10 years old and slammed a little bit with this learning issue, but I took that instead. And my mom worked night and day literally with me. I can remember both of us kind of weeping together over my inability to do homework, but it just kind of did it. But then there was the other side of Washington, which was the new frontier, the Camelot, the excitement of this credible young president, family and cabinet. And they were called to serve the cabinet members and their families were called to serve. So, I remember, I have fond memories of things that today are magical. They truly are magic moments that reflect back to your book that I knew they were special, but I did not know how special they were. Joining President Kennedy at Camp David, remembering being in the living room study of what seemed like a log cabin. It was a very understated building that the president at that time lived in at Camp David and seeing him at ease in his rocking chair, and Emily, I remember attending in the White House, the first showing of PT-109.
SM (02:07:07):
Oh my gosh. Cliff Robertson.
CM (02:07:10):
Sitting on the floor and the president was on, I think a shade or some sort of seating. And together with all of the Robert Kennedy family and present family, it was an easy, wonderful relationship. And taking off from the White House, Rose Garden or wherever the helicopters take off from as a 11 or 12 year old, it was so questionable. But it just seemed, it was part of life's fabric. I am trying to describe this incredible feeling. I am putting my two hands together because on one hand it was reality and another hand it was far removed from anything that I will ever live again.
SM (02:08:11):
What's interesting, and I can remember reading your dad's book In Retrospect, in the sections where he talks about the family, which he did quite often throughout the book. And he mentioned that the University of Michigan that you talked about and he wanted to live in a university environment and not in some rich suburb. Well, and I thought that was, he really had his head on his shoulders and obviously it was probably very impressionable and important for him with respect to his family. And that is where you got your love for nature.
CM (02:08:39):
It really did. And it teased out throughout our lives in the sense that in one respect, my dad must have been the first commuter because Ann Arbor from Dearborn where he worked, I do not know in that day and age how many minutes it was maybe 45 or 50 or an hour. And so he made that decision to have the intellectual capacity of living in a university town and back to my image here of nature, of living in an area that was not economically oriented. And he would drive home the new models, whether it was the T-bird or eventually the Edel or whatever.
SM (02:09:29):
He drove an Edel home.
CM (02:09:29):
Yeah. Whatever the new model was and would test drive them. And the other thing that my dad and mom always emphasized was a time for us as a family to be together and typically being that he truly was a workaholic, it would be on a vacation in the Sierra Mountain because mom and dad grew up in the Bay area of California and the Sierras were so important to them and to their generation. We would as a family, actually part of the family. Dad would be working in Michigan, mom and my two sisters and I would head out in the summertime in the old station wagon and drive to the eastern slope of the Deer, Nevada. Up with their college friends and families. And we would launch a two week trip, initially packed trip with mules into the Sierras. These were the most wonderful experiences of my life. Campfires and was sating off of snowbank into crystal clear lakes and catching fish. My mom was a tremendous fisher woman and taught me how to fish and wild fish...
SM (02:10:58):
She was quite accomplished too.
CM (02:11:00):
She was a remarkable...
SM (02:11:03):
Reading about her and her background. And she passed away in (19)81, I believe.
CM (02:11:07):
She did. She had mesothelioma cancer around the throat. It was told to us that she would have an 11-month life and she lived 11 months. But she was one of the greatest sources of inspiration, I think for my father. She was the greatest source of love and inspiration for me and our family. Just an absolutely down to earth, remarkable human being.
SM (02:11:39):
She was involved with a group organization called Reading Is Fundamental. I think your sister has been somewhat linked to that too, but it's a nonprofit children's literacy organization. Was that based on the fact of your experiences with her as a young child?
CM (02:11:54):
I think it was three. Certainly, it was the experience that she and I shared of how difficult it is for some children. Secondly, coming to the nation's capital and realizing that the literacy rate was so poor and that was wrong. And thirdly, as my dad felt the story when meeting with President Kennedy said, okay, when he brought the cabinet wives together, your husbands are going to be under tremendous amount of pressure and work, and I want you to do something meaningful for yourself, for society. So it was kind of those three or four things. And I am so proud of my mom. She started this program. Reading Is Fundamental out of a mobile unit, book mobiles. They would go around to schools and have school children come on board and pick out a free book, start a library in families where there were no books. And that has grown into a global network, it is remarkable.
SM (02:12:59):
Is your sister linked to that in some way?
CM (02:13:01):
My older sister, Margie, is on the board of RIF.
SM (02:13:04):
Okay, very good. Yeah. And I guess President Carter awarded her the Medal of Freedom too.
CM (02:13:11):
Which was an outstanding recognition of my mom's dedication to our [inaudible] side.
SM (02:13:24):
Getting back to that time when your dad was Secretary of Defense, what memories do you have wherever you were location wise about the people that David Halberstam often describes in his book, The Best and The Brightest? Your dad was part of this group, and what are your memories when, and I have got about seven or eight things here that were very important during or pretty big during your dad's reign and at Secretary of Defense. The inaugural speech of John Kennedy, where were you and how did that speech influence you in any way?
CM (02:14:00):
Oh, I am so glad that you have brought that up and reminded me of that. That whole experience began for me when dad's came home from work one day and said, well, what would you think of moving to Washington DC? Now you're talking now, I was 10 years old. And I said, well Dad, do not worry about that because we're not going to do that. I have got my friends here, we have got the tree house, we have got all of what we so enjoyed here. And he said, well, I have been asked by the president prominent to be a part of his cabinet. And the rest of that story is history. Obviously, he went out and I did not. But I do remember my mom and dad had gone to Washington in preparation for the inaugural and my older sisters and I were to fly out to be part of the day that you were mentioning here. And it was an icy winter ice storm as I recall. And I was the one in charge of the alarm clock to wake up. My sisters, now remember, they're teenagers and I am 10 years old. And I was worried that if I were to wake them up, they were going to get really angry with me for waking them up. So I think we were a little late getting to the airport, got to Washington, picked up by a limo. Now this is something I had never even dreamed of being in one or certainly had never ridden. This was very exciting. And I recall being in the audience, looking up at the cabinet behind him on the Capitol, just watching Robert Frost and just being in the palm of something of God's hands in a very, very special way. And then the day, I do not remember how it totally unfolded, but I do remember in the reviewing stand in front of the White House, whatever that was, in 1960 and after it was very different than what they do today. And I think by that time it was a chilly day, very chilly but sunshine as I recall. And I remember the cabinet coming past in their cars that were convertibles, I think open-top. And I remember my mom and dad in their car and dad had what? Remind me the name of the hat. The Stove Pipe Cap?
SM (02:16:31):
Oh, Abraham Lincoln's Hose Cap.
CM (02:16:33):
Abraham Lincoln. And I recall saying, shouting out to my dad, dad, you look really great out there. And then they went on, I am looking at my office wall right now because I am looking at a picture of them at one of the inaugural balls that they attended. And my dad in a tux and my mom in a ball gown with their gloves and everything. Quite a remark.
SM (02:17:05):
Yeah, I think President Kennedy, there is pictures of him wearing that kind of a hat too.
CM (02:17:09):
Oh, absolutely.
SM (02:17:09):
Yeah. And of course that was a very cold day. You remember the president was speaking, you see the breath when he was speaking? It was, but it was a great speech. I remember it was a cold day.
CM (02:17:22):
Can you hold one second?
SM (02:17:39):
Yes.
CM (02:17:39):
[inaudible] So I get lots of men coming by looking for work.
SM (02:17:46):
A couple of the other events, and you will remember what maybe your dad talking about it at the table or conversing, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis because those are two very big events.
CM (02:17:57):
They are indeed. My memories of those... This wrapped into a much larger part of my life. And that is that, as you can imagine from my earlier comments, dad kept his work very separate from my life and actually throughout our life, whether because we're talking kind of early teen right now, 12, 13, 14. But as I became a late teenager and all the way through my life, it was something that dad just chose not to share, not to talk about, not to engage in. I think it was painful. I think he was trying to be protective. Was it right or wrong on his part? I do not think I can apply that sort of rationale. Did it ultimately help me? No, it did not. But to get back to specifically your question about the missile crisis, I do recall that much more fervently than Bay of Pig. Dad would come home from work say eight o'clock. And he always sat on the same part of the couch. He would always have his hand on the coffee table to the left where the lamp was. He would typically be reading the paper. And in his hand, on the coffee table was this beautiful walnut plaque. And there is some imagery here because I am a walnut grower, this walnut plaque that probably measured four inches by four inches and on top of the plaque was the most beautiful silver gallon, just a little piece of silver with the month of October, 1962, with the critical dates of the Cuban Missile Crisis embedded deeper in the silver gallon. And I remember my dad just kind of, his hand would be on that. And it was as if it was braille, as if the digit of his finger were rereading, recognizing the potential devastation of our world, had the United States launched their weapon.
SM (02:20:32):
Wow.
CM (02:20:32):
I have that memory emblazoned in my mind. That stayed with us forever.
SM (02:20:44):
Now that was a scary moment as we all watched President Kennedy on TV that night. And of course we all remember Adlai Stevenson at the United Nations. I am going to wait for your reply until hell freezes over. I will never forget it. I am only a little older than you, so of course. So a few more here. The Gulf of Tonkin on Vietnam, obviously in 1964, a lot has been written about that. Your thoughts on that as well as the protests on college campuses that went throughout the time that he was Secretary of Defense and of course the big one. There were two at the Pentagon and then the one in 1967 where they levitated supposedly the Pentagon. And in the 1965 one, which I am going to come back to later, where the man burned himself to death, just anything really linking to Vietnam.
CM (02:21:43):
Well, let me remind us that I was 14, 1964. Maybe 14 year olds today are a little more worldly in their global understanding than I was. So those memories are more In Retrospect, my reflections on those [inaudible] as I awaken to Vietnam. My personal awaken occurred closer to 1966, (19)67, I am going to say. There again, I was had in [inaudible]. One of my dear friends who was going to be the president of the school, had created a teaching about Vietnam. Now think of this is high school. So he was 17, this is Rick King. And he had invited professors, I believe from the Boston area and maybe Dartmouth speaking. I said, well now wait a minute, Rick. At that point I still said, there must be a reason that we were in Vietnam. And I remember standing in a phone booth, we do not have phone booths anymore, but I was standing in a phone booth from school and talking with dad, dad going to be a teacher, is there any material that you can send me to justify the war in Vietnam? And it just occurred while I am speaking with you on the phone, why it was that no materials arrived. I think at that point I realized there was no justification for us to be there. It did not dawn on me then, but the materials never arrived, the teaching occurred. And that was a rite of passage. And I remember later on I am 19, being in social events in Washington DC in the backyard of a friends' house in Georgetown and the decision makers, I will put them in one category, decision makers, my father and other decision makers saying, well, you just have not read enough about this issue, but you do not really know what you are talking about. And yet we knew very intuitively and from our small world exposure that Vietnam War would not go forth.
SM (02:24:20):
Yeah. I interviewed Dr. Henry Graff, the former professor at Columbia University on Monday, and he did the Tuesday cabinet book about Tuesday cabinet meetings where your dad and top people on foreign policy would meet with President Johnson every Tuesday.
CM (02:24:40):
Yes.
SM (02:24:40):
And he had chances to talk to your dad four times. And he talked to him just before he was leaving in (19)67 as well. Johnson gave him full access to the cabinet. And he was, what is interesting is when I talked to him about the gatherings of these people, it was known early on the McGeorge Bundy, even in his book says he was against the war from the get-go way back in (19)64. And I know that Bill Moyers was against the war himself, and he was only there for three years working with the President Johnson. And then your dad had misgivings about the war for a long time. And I asked Dr. Graff, here you have Secretary Defense, McNamara. McGeorge Bundy was the special assistant, I forget his full title. And you had his press secretary, Bill Moyers against the war. President Johnson kept going on. And Dr. Graff, you have to understand, these men kept their differences behind closed doors and they showed that they were loyal. And that is what the kind of people that President Johnson wanted around him.
CM (02:25:52):
Well, that is such an important point that you brought up loyalty because something to my dad always referred to. And I would ask him on those rare occasions that particularly after the fact when he was at the World Bank and finally came out with his book, In Retrospect said, why could not you have addressed it? Why could not you have spared yourself and our nation so much anguish, sorrow and grief? And said several things. One is that he was an appointed cabinet senator that he did, he was not elected. Felt that it was his duty and his loyalty to serve the President in the best capacity that he could. And then I think that there is an evolution in people's, like these thought processes and lives that allow them to come to grace, come to some sort of understanding. And thank God he did. I mean, I do not know many other people in his situation who have publicly and privately said, I made a mistake and I would like us, I would like myself to learn from this mistake. And maybe history can use these, that is so [inaudible], so accurately developed in fog of war, which by the way, I think every high school [inaudible].
SM (02:27:22):
Well, I agree. I have a copy of it. I think it's a classic. And I agree with what you say about your dad because one of the issues, I was in higher education for almost 30 some years, and very few people are willing to ever admit they make a mistake. And it is a sign of a true leader when they do because they become vulnerable. And then they start questioning, what happened to your dad? Why did not you do this before you left in 1967? Here is another criticism of your dad. Why was it that when you left, and I remember the scene, it is actually can see it on YouTube where the President is the going away there when he was very emotional. And he did not really say that because he did not agree with the President. I know he did not. And then some people said, well, he went off to Aspen to ski and he was responsible for the desk of so many people on the wall. So, there is so many perceptions, but you are kind of like, you are damned if you do, or damned if you do not kind of a...
CM (02:28:25):
Well, I think what you say is accurate and about his welling up and being very emotional and actually very interesting because from that point on, he probably would never admit that. But I think he suffered significantly from a posttraumatic stress syndrome that, believe it or not, I think I suffered from too in the sense that the event of Vietnam were so distraught, disturbing to our nation personally. You mentioned the [inaudible] person igniting themselves in front of the Pentagon. Those events are so dark, so traumatic, I do not think one ever recovers from them. And you cannot control them. You cannot control when those emotions. That is a significant damage to one [inaudible] character. And you cannot suppress that. As good as certain people are and my father was one of the best at compartmentalizing parts of his life, that went deep into all parts of his life. I do not think for the rest of his life, he could actually control them.
SM (02:29:48):
One of the things that upset so many of the Boomer generation that because TV was very important, black and white television and the news is when your dad gave those weekly reports on the numbers killed. And many believed he was lying because those reports concluded dead animals and all the other things just to please the President. But what is interesting when he wrote, In Retrospect, I have two anecdotes. My very first interview, because I started this project way back in (19)96, as it said in my letter there, and I met with Senator McCarthy. And one of the questions during my meeting when Senator Eugene McCarthy was, what do you think of the new book out by Robert McNamara? And I have to listen to it again to get the exact quote, but he is a little too late. A little too late. And he was very upset. And he said, let us go on the next question. So that was his response. And then I have pictures at the Vietnam Memorial because I have been going to the Vietnam Memorial since 1994 for veterans and Memorial Day to pay my respects. And in about the year that In Retrospect came out, I will never forget it, there were two copies of... In fact, I can look it up and send it to you on the computer. There were two copies of your dad's book that had bullet holes through it. And very bad words underneath the book. So the feelings were still there. And then when I go to the wall many times, I do not get there as much now, but there is three names that always come up that were the bad people. And yeah, it depends, if it is the veterans talking, it is Jane Fonda who they cannot stand for obvious reasons. And then they mentioned your dad and Henry Kissinger. Yeah, those three. But then if it is the anti-war people, it is not Jane Fonda, it is your dad, Henry Kissinger and Richard Nixon. And they throw a little bit of Agnew in there, but they do not say a whole lot about LBJ because of his great to society. So, those are just some anecdotes I wanted to share. Why did you drop out of Stanford?
CM (02:32:04):
Oh, largely because of my disenfranchisement with this remarkable country that I do love tremendously. And that was 1971 of the winter. And I just realized that having, I personally lived very close to the man who was Secretary of Defense during the lead up of Vietnam said, getting back to these wounds, whether you want to call it post-traumatic stress syndrome or whatever, that I needed to rediscover my country, that I needed to reinvest in my country. I needed to reinvest in myself. And the only way I could do that was somehow get a new vision of the beauty of the springs, of our people, of our country. And the way I did that was to begin a journey to South America. And I began that with a few friends. And we traveled through Central America learning Spanish along the way, and eventually arriving in Columbia where my two friends decided to say that their travel journey was over and mine was not. And I continued on that point all the way down to [inaudible], spending another year and a half on the road in the more formidable part of that journey for me was working on as a farmhand. I worked with some modern Indians, I worked with Julian dairy farmers, I worked with hay growers, produce people. I worked on fishing boats. And I was immersed in something that, it completely resonated for me. It was food production. And for me, it brought together two worlds that I thought were very divergent at that time. One was the political world that I had somewhat grown up in. The other was the early world that my parents had shown me, which was that of the garden of... My fondest childhood memories of being with my dad, mom in the garden with him picking a fresh tomato and putting a little salt on it, taking a big bite, the juice, rolling down his cheeks. My mom picking asparagus, cutting roses... Picking asparagus, cutting roses to bring into our kitchen table. Those two worlds, the early ones and the mid ones, the land and the politics, to me were married in food production. I realized, after two and a half years on the road, I had no education. I had worked a little bit, but I had no education. I wanted to formalize that, and went to UC Davis, to study plant and soil sciences, knowing in the beginning that I wanted to come out and eventually farm.
SM (02:35:35):
Wow. What a story. Were your parents worried about you being so far away?
CM (02:35:43):
They must have been absolutely worried, for many, many reasons. Just let me remind you, I arrived in Santiago, Chile in the early days of September, 1971, and that was the anniversary of Salvador Allende being the first elected socialist president in Chile.
SM (02:36:06):
Wow.
CM (02:36:09):
Dad, being the head of the World Bank at that time, certainly knew of the difficulties that were occurring in Chile, and probably could, in his own mind, forecast how the future may unfold. I know my mom was very worried about my wellbeing, and of course, there was no communication. Just in terms of getting mail, my parents would send a letter to an embassy, that was the only way I could get mail. I think I called them infrequently, maybe every six months, something like that. It's so interesting now to have children who are texting, and messaging, and emailing, and phoning, and the tree of communications today, and the different level of communication.
SM (02:37:08):
One of the big things that was in the news around the mid-(19)60s was the fact that Governor Rockefeller's son was` down in Brazil, and disappeared.
CM (02:37:21):
He did, I recall that.
SM (02:37:21):
That was really big in the news. Of course, he was down there to help people.
CM (02:37:24):
I do not know if you have seen the movie "Missing," about the coup in Chile. It is a very powerful movie, and to be quite honest, my story could have been similar to that story.
SM (02:37:42):
Wow. I am going to get back to your work with the farm in a couple of minutes here, but correct me if I am ever repeating anything, because I have got a series of questions here I have in order. I do a lot of thinking before I do my interviews.
CM (02:37:54):
I know you do. I saw you put in a great deal of research.
SM (02:37:58):
Everyone is different, and some are some general questions.
CM (02:38:02):
It makes it fun and interesting and insightful for you and for the person you are interviewing, and potentially for the people reading the book.
SM (02:38:09):
I want to reach students and high school students, college students with this as well as the general public, because I want people to understand where people come from, and to show a little respect for people who they may agree or disagree with. I do not have a whole lot of tolerance for intolerance at times. I understand that you were against the war that your dad ran. Did you have any major discussions with him at different times about the war, and your differences, and did he listen? Was there a major generation gap between you and your parents, and how about your two sisters and the parents?
CM (02:38:49):
Well, as I mentioned before, Dad in certain ways was a master at compartmentalizing. I think he felt, in his own vision as a parent of the (19)60s, that he needed in some way to protect his son and his children, and he did that by not engaging in conversation-
SM (02:39:10):
Okay.
CM (02:39:11):
About Vietnam. The only time I would glean information on that front would be if I had a friend who was well versed in the topic, and that friend was trying to engage Dad in conversation. That was when I could open the window to some of his thoughts on that, and that continued throughout his life. Here is the bottom line between a father and a son: we never lost love for one another. We never lost respect for one another. I give my mom tremendous credit for being the conduit of love and communication, because that is a natural way to [inaudible]. So many families, and .so many of my peers lost their relationship to their father at that time, and never healed. I have friends coming up to me and saying, to my dad's dying day we never were able to pick up that phone. What a sad misstep and what was the other part of it?
SM (02:40:17):
Yeah. Was there any difference between how your dad dealt with you and your two sisters?
CM (02:40:22):
I do not think so. My sisters are nine and six years older than I am. It really was quite, they were well off to college and beyond as I was growing up. But I know that they did not engage either on that topic. Now let me get to the issue of did my relationship as son of my father affect him, his decision making? It would be very egotistical of me to say yes. And yet I do believe that my choice of life and the direction that I have taken in life very much affected him, in fact. I think the fact that my sisters and I had friends who were very involved in leading the anti-war movement was insightful and impacted on him. He just did not let it be known.
SM (02:41:21):
We talked about the qualities of admitting, making a mistake and the regrets and so forth, but was there ever a feeling on the part of you or your sisters or maybe even your mom that if you have a problem with president Johnson over a policy just resign?
CM (02:41:43):
Well, I think most of my reflections on that are afterthought there again, just the age that I was during then. I would say absolutely my father is a man of tremendous integrity. And so I think you or I of this generation would say, well, if you feel differently, then you owe it to yourself, number one to your family and your nation. You demonstrate disagreement by resigning. And I just cannot put myself in his shoes and know what he felt about that. He goes back to this loyalty, which I think his generation must have had a different parameter and definition than I might.
SM (02:42:38):
Just in your own words, could you please, if someone were to come up to you like a high school student and you walk in and someone were to come up to you and say, "Who was Robert McNamara?" And you would describe your father or the leader, or how would you describe him to someone or particularly a young person? And also how would you describe your mom? Because I think your mom is very important here. She's very important in history and they are a team, in my opinion. I look at this, I see a twosome that became one. That is what marriage is supposed to be about. And just so in, how would you define both of them?
CM (02:43:20):
Well, individually first, right?
SM (02:43:22):
Yes.
CM (02:43:24):
I would respond to the question coming from a high school student or another person about who my father was as a very bright man and who truly loved humankind. A man who, well, one, he wanted the best or of both is deeply divided. The seven years that my father spent as Secretary of Defense determined the rest of his life. He lived, 1980 to the year 2009, lived another 29 years. Well, actually the time that he left Defense, (19)78, so that is (19)78, (19)88, (19)98, another 40 years to his life. And during those 40 years, his true ambition for the betterment of mankind and society came forward, advanced. He was able to advance that in such a significant way. And very, very few people in the United States understand that perspective. And I think that that is a tragedy, a loss. He was defined by Vietnam, and yet his defining moment during the next 40 years.
SM (02:45:26):
I think what you just said is very important. Craig, I will let you continue here in a second. Because as a person who believes in student development and believes in human development, and we tell students in college or that hopefully they learn this, that you are constantly evolving as a human being and it does not stop until the day you die.
CM (02:45:46):
Exactly. And in the case of a leader, it's our society's nature to pigeonhole them to a time of their lives, of greatness or of tremendous loss. And he has been defined by the latter.
SM (02:46:13):
How about your mom?
CM (02:46:18):
My mom, as my dad had said, was one of God's loveliest creatures. She had a sparkle in her eye. She had very, very beautiful blue eyes, which I inherited many things from my mom. My eyes, my name Craig was her maiden name. And I am so honored have my name Craig be in more of the Latin tradition where the mother also shares her name with the offspring. I am so happy to have the name Craig. And I am so moved and touched by her spirit and her connection to Mother Nature. She gifted that to me. It is something that you were very generous commenting on in your letter, our phone call, that is something that I have explored my whole life. And in terms of the educational programs we currently offer to do across California, it is the foundation. It is my foundation. It is what I do, my own family. It is what I do for students in California as the farm.
SM (02:47:38):
And you lead me right into the question, if someone to ask, who is Robert Craig McNamara?
CM (02:47:49):
Robert Craig McNamara is a reflection of both of his parents, both my parents and a person who has been moved and affected by the history that I have lived true. So although I did not serve in Vietnam, I certainly have been very affected by that. It is a part of me every day and my goals have been to really help making this world a better place for the individuals.
SM (02:48:50):
Did you feel that when you were in that one year at Stanford and maybe your junior and senior in high school, that any of your fellow students got on you for being the son of the person who was running the Vietnam War?
CM (02:49:02):
Absolutely. It was always on my mind. It was always in something that I had to demonstrate who I was, myself. It was a life altering pressure on me that I had to find out who I really was and be that honest person myself. And yes, I actually felt that in a certain way, that it was remarkable that people allowed me to be who I was and I did not get spit on, it did not take a [inaudible], or become violent. Because I know how frustrated I have been over our decision to go to war in Iraq, decision go to war today. I know the dark side of feelings against our leaders. So, I can imagine it how people must have felt about me that I was embodiment of my father, but I am not.
SM (02:50:28):
Right.
CM (02:50:30):
And I want to move this forward for one second. Dad was asked to come to UC Berkeley-
SM (02:50:38):
And Craig, could you speak up just a little bit, too?
CM (02:50:39):
Yeah. Dad was asked to come to UC Berkeley and I thought it before the Fog of War, but you may help me out here, may be before, in retrospect. And he came to Zellerbach Hall, which the largest hall in Berkeley. And he said he had never been back to Berkeley, it is his Alma mater, in many, many years. He certainly could not come back during the war years because he would have been protested against. And I think because of his World Bank experience and other experiences, he just had not been back. This was a beloved place for him. Because memories of meeting my mom and being a student at Berkeley. So, he was asked to come to Berkeley to speak on a retrospect for the Fog of War and it was packed. The auditorium was absolutely back to the audience outside. And I was very fearful for his life. And this was recently, this was within the last 10 years. And I felt very on edge in terms of reading the room, reading the audience, and if there was going to be any violent movement towards him, which is pretty remarkable for me to feel that at this point in my life or in our lives. And to be quite honest, his presence and his participation and his, at that point, transparency and honesty, I think really was received by the audience and was warmly responded-they may have totally just not liked him, but they appreciated the moment.
SM (02:52:33):
Yeah. Well I know Bobby Mueller and Bobby Mueller was on several panels with your dad over the last 10 years I believe. And here is a man who came back from Vietnam, very disenchanted. And Bobby was one of the people that said when he came back, he realized that Vietnam, or excuse me, that America is not always the good guy. Yet he could be on the stage with your dad and I know he respected your dad. So that says a lot when Bobby can say really nice things about some of the things that happened to him during that time.
CM (02:53:07):
This is Bobby Mueller?
SM (02:53:08):
Yeah, Bobby Mueller.
CM (02:53:09):
And did he serve in Vietnam?
SM (02:53:11):
Yeah, he was the founder of Vietnam Veterans of America.
CM (02:53:16):
Yeah.
SM (02:53:19):
And I believe if you go into YouTube you will see your dad being interviewed by that professor. It is a show that they had and it is a tremendous interview. It is an hour and 10 minutes.
CM (02:53:31):
That is a great one. Do you remember the year of that?
SM (02:53:34):
It had to be the time that he went probably for this speech because he talked about it in retrospect, he was not there.
CM (02:53:40):
It was retrospect. Yeah.
SM (02:53:42):
Yeah. It was not for Fog of War. I would like your comments here. I am up to this point where after Norman Morrison, a Quaker father of three, burned himself only 40 feet from your dad's window at the Pentagon on November 2nd of (19)65. Your dad states in the book, this is very important. " I knew Marge" is it Marge?
CM (02:54:02):
Margie
SM (02:54:04):
"I knew Margie and our three children shared many of Morrison's feelings about the war, as did the wives and children of several of my cabinet colleagues. And I believed I understood and shared some of his thoughts." The war, I cannot read my writing here, it was much more, "this was much more Marge and I and the children should have talked about. Yet at moments like this, I often turned inward instead. It was a grave weakness. The episode created tension at home that only deepened as dissent and criticism of the war continued to grow."
CM (02:54:51):
Absolutely. Absolutely.
SM (02:54:54):
And that was in the mid (19)90s when he wrote in retrospect, or early (19)90s.
CM (02:55:04):
So the touching reflection there is that he held that inside of him for all those years. If he could have brought that forward in a memoir earlier, I think it would have provided some healing for us, for our nation. Not a mea culpa that is gone. When you let something fester for 25 years, it is just insurmountable. I am proud of him for coming to that point in his life. And I wished for all of us, for me, for our nation, for the Vietnamese, for the men and women of the United States died and served. For everybody who was touched globally by Vietnam. I wish my father had been able.
SM (02:55:57):
Right. Hold on one second. My door here.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Craig McNamara
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Interviewee
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Chomsky, Noam
Date of Interview
ND
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Stephen McKiernan
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English
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
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1:30:04
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Noam Chomsky is a theoretical linguist, historian, political activist, social critic, author, and scholar. Dr. Chomsky is one of the founders of the field of cognitive science and one of the leading figures in analytic philosophy. He is especially famous with his analyses of the pernicious influence of economic elites on U.S. domestic and foreign policy as well as intellectual culture."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":771,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0}">Dr. Noam Chomsky is a theoretical linguist, historian, political activist, social critic, author, and scholar. Dr. Chomsky is one of the founders of the field of cognitive science and one of the leading figures in analytic philosophy. He is especially famous with his analyses of the pernicious influence of economic elites on U.S. domestic and foreign policy as well as intellectual culture.</span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"General Yuan; Photographs; Study Abroad; College student in the nineteen sixties; Nineteen forties; North Vietnam; Rise from the South."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":769,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0}">General Yuan; Photographs; Study Abroad; College student in the nineteen sixties; Nineteen forties; North Vietnam; Rise from the South.</span>
Subject LCSH
Linguists; Historians; Authors, American--20th century; Scholars; Political activists--United States; Chomsky, Noam--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Noam Chomsky
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: ND
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:01):
Great. What are your thoughts on the American youth of the (19)60s and the (19)70s with respect to the following? Were they unique and different than other students you have taught or been around? And that is the students before (19)64 and after 1981. Secondly, do you feel these students know their history better? And did they challenge their professors more? Did they feel more empowered? And what were their strengths and weaknesses? And it's based on your experiences, because I know you cannot talk about 74 million people.
NC (00:39):
Well, the ninth generation of consciousness, so ninth decade. So, it was kind of like the (19)30s. I was a child then, but the (19)30s and the (19)40s, it was pretty lively, student activism. And the (19)50s, things quieted down, became... It was kind of like a reasonably passive decade. I mean, partly repression, partly other things. The (19)60s, things picked up again, but not... Took some time. I mean, so for example, right here at MIT, it was very quiet until about 1967 or (19)68. Faculty was quite active and anti-war and other activities, but not the student body. And then it was different times in different places. Berkeley was a little earlier, Wisconsin was a little earlier, but by the late (19)60s, there was quite a rise in student activism, interest and all sorts of issues and challenges, thinking about new things, raising questions about the nature of the university, their lives, war, gender relations. So, all kinds of things sort of blew up. And then that just extended in the following years. There was so much student activism that elite circles became extremely concerned about what they called the failures of the institutions responsible for the indoctrination of the young. That is their phrase. That is liberal elite, I am talking about, not right wing, no trilateral, the administration liberals, those people, they are worried about the institution's responsible for the indoctrination of the young. They are not doing their job. And many measures were taken to try to pacify the population, in particular young people, ranging from the drug war to high tuition, to trap people in debt to many other things. But I do not really think it worked very well. I mean, I think generally activism has sustained, maybe even increased. So, lots of things developed in the (19)80s and the (19)90s that did not exist in the (19)60s. For example, the solidarity movements, third-world solidarity movements, they really date from the 1980s. The global justice movement, which is substantial, that is 1990s or even this century. And it is very scattered. There is not anything unified, but it is quite substantial, actually. You can see it when the Iraq War came along. The Iraq War is I think the first war in the history of the imperial powers that was massively protested before it was officially launched. In the case of Vietnam, it took five or six years before any [inaudible] developed.
SM (04:05):
When you look at the free speech movement on the Berkeley campus in (19)64, (19)65, I love Mario Savio, saddened that he did not live long. But what happened there and the challenges that were taking place within the university, obviously a lot of the students, and we are only talking a percentage now, a lot of the critics, and I would like your thoughts on this. A lot of the critics of the boomer generation of 74 million will always say that only five to 15 percent were involved in any kind of an activism. So, they use that. So, see, 85 to 90 percent were doing nothing. They were living their lives like everybody else. And they used that as a negative, as opposed to a positive. Well, how do you respond to that?
NC (04:53):
How many people were involved in the civil rights movement? That was a major movement. Changed the country. How many are involved in the feminist movement? Changed the country enormously, country's totally different from what it was 50 years ago. I mean, it takes MIT for... this university, because we happen to be sitting here, but it generalizes over the country, in fact, over much of the world. And if you came here... When I got here in the mid-(19)50s and you walk down the halls, what you saw was white males, well-dressed, deferential, no table out anywhere organizing for something, very passive, doing the work. Take a look down the halls now, you can do it. Half women, third minorities, all kind of protesting this and that, get organized and this and that and the other thing. Those are made informally dressed, which is not just, it is more than symbolic. That means change relationships to change from deference and obedience to interaction, much closer interaction. These are major changes. And how many people were involved? If you count the number of people actively involved, it was probably pretty small. We completely changed the country, civilized the country in a huge way. So, what does it mean? I mean take, say, the American Revolution, how many people were involved? Estimates are maybe a third of the population, and actually a third would probably supporting the rebels. A third were supporting British. A third wanted them all to go away. Something roughly like that. I mean, that is what happens. Take, say, resistance to the Nazis in Europe. How many people are involved with the partisans? Minuscule. In Northern, I mean, in Southern Europe were a huge number, but Italy, Greece. But in France for example, very small numbers. Most people are kind of living their lives. Paris is a pretty decent place to live.
SM (07:10):
It is almost like if you ever hear a student say, "Well, I am only one person." Well, Dr. King used to always say, "It can start with you." An idea starts with someone, and it spreads. And Dr. King was always a believer that it was about we, not me, and that every person in his congregation or people that were at his presentations, he knew could be just like him. It is about that kind of...
NC (07:41):
I mean, the civil rights movement is an interesting example that really took off with young people, snake workers sitting in at lunch counters, freedom riders and so on. And it created a wave of enthusiasm, in which King could become a national figure. If it had not been for that, he would have been talking in his church and he would have been the first to say that.
SM (08:11):
Well, another critics of Boomer generation, if you read and you hear about it a lot today, is-
NC (08:16):
I do not understand why that is a critic. I mean, it's a criticism of the American Revolution, small percentage of population period.
SM (08:23):
In (19)94, I believe Newt Gingrich when he came into power made some comments about the (19)60s and he is a Boomer himself. And if you watch television shows today, like Huckabee or some of the other people on Fox, but I do not use them as the perfect examples, but there have been people over time that criticized this generation that grew up in the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the reason why the breakup in the American society, the breakup of the society, which was the divorce rate went on the increase, the lack of respect for authority. The...
NC (08:56):
That is right. But that is part of the civilizing of the society.
SM (08:58):
Yeah.
NC (08:58):
I mean the divorce rate went up. Is it better to have domestic abuse and unhappy marriages? I mean, is it good or bad that the divorce rate went up? I mean, I happen to be married for 60 years, so we are not part. But I mean, the fact that the divorce rate went up is not either good or bad. A traditional marriage with domestic abuse, presentness, patriarchal families, extreme unhappiness. Is that a good thing? But does not mean much. Say the abortion rate went up. Is that better than unwanted pregnancies? This is part of liberation. Part of people liberating themselves is that there's turmoil. That is why the revolutionary generation in the United States cause turmoil. That is why a large part of the population lined up with the loyalists and in fact, fled the country, fled in terror because the rebels they regarded as terrorists were taking over.
SM (10:05):
Do you think that the attitude that even people my age now feel as they are now getting social security for the first time, a feeling of uniqueness that we were different than any other generation in American history, that we were going to be the change agents just for the betterment of society. We are going to end war, racism, sexism, homophobia, the whole works.
NC (10:28):
There was a substantial sector of activist engagement and independent thought and concern about human issues in the (19)60s. I cannot give it exact numbers, but there was a substantial, and it did change the society, civilized. So, it is a much more civilized society than it was 50 years ago. A lot of things that were considered perfectly normal 50 years ago would be intolerable today. Unthinkable.
SM (11:00):
The society that we live in today, which is the divisive as it takes place. Nobody's listening to anybody, "I know better than you know," and "You're the problem and I am not," that kind of an attitude, is that a shoot off?
NC (11:14):
That is propaganda. I mean, was it any different in the (19)50s? I mean, is it better if people are passive and say, "Okay, I listen to authority."
SM (11:23):
It is not.
NC (11:25):
I mean, you just cannot. These cliches that are tossed around, first of all, nobody knows whether they have any basis in reality. And if they do, are they positive or negative? I suppose people do not listen to authority. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? You want to have a totalitarian state, it's a bad thing. If you want to have a democratic society, it is a good thing.
SM (11:49):
Do you think... This is something that I started out by asking Senator Nelson of all people, a conversation over dinner, and then I used it as one of my questions throughout all my interviews over the last couple years, and actually something I worked on with students who even added to it. And that is that, do you feel that this generation or this group of people born after 1946, between 46 and 64, as they age, as they get closer and closer to passing on that they have an issue with healing, do you think that there's an issue in this country that we have not healed since all of the divisions that were taking place in the (19)60s and (19)70s, divisions over the war, divisions, over all the other issues that came about at that time? Is it important?
NC (12:42):
The divisions were very good things. Let us take the (19)60s, take the war. Kennedy launched the war in 1962. In 1962, he sent the US Air Force to start bombing South Vietnam. He authorized napalm, started chemical warfare to destroy crops and ground cover. He initiated programs which to drive the rural population into what amounted to concentration camps. Ultimately millions of them to separate them from the gorillas who the United States knew they were supporting. And it was total silence, apathy. You could not get three people together in a room to talk about it. Was that a good thing? I mean, would we think that is a good thing if say Russia had been doing it? No, it was a terrible thing. It was apathy, obedience, lack of concern enabled the United States to practically destroy South Vietnam. We practically destroyed the country before protests began. Big serious protest began around 1967. By that time... read Bernard Fall.
SM (13:52):
I have, yes.
NC (13:52):
Okay. You remember what he wrote in his last reflections on a war? He was the most respected military historian and Vietnam specialist, the one guy, McNamara and others respected. He said before he died, that in combat, that in (19)67, that he doubted whether Vietnam as a cultural and historic entity could survive the onslaught of the most violent, savage military machine ever launched against an area that size. Well, he was a hawk, but he cared about the Vietnam enemies. And that is what he was saying at the point when protests began, really took off. So, what was right? The silence and apathy that allowed that to happen, as Gingrich wanted. Or the protests that said, "No, we cannot go around destroying countries," which Gingrich, of course, hated. Supporters of state power, subservient supporters of state power of course want everybody to be quiet and obedient.
SM (14:54):
In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin?
NC (14:58):
When did the (19)60s begin?
SM (14:59):
And when did it end?
NC (15:02):
Depends what issue you pick. If you pick Vietnam, you can trace it pretty clearly. So, I mean, I was giving talks about Vietnam (19)64, (19)65 to four people in church. If we wanted to have a meeting on it at MIT, we would have to put together 10 topics and get Vietnam in there and maybe we could get 20 people to show up. In 1965, my wife, we had two little girls, seven and four I think at the time, and she took them to a women's demonstration in Concord, Mass. Concord is the center of American pacifism, you know, go back, it is transcendental center. So, they went to a women's demonstration in Concord, which was just standing quietly in a square holding signs. They were attacked, tomatoes, tin cans and so on, driven out. And we had our first public demonstration against the war in Boston in October 1965. That is three years after Kennedy attacked the country. But that time was already half destroyed. We dared to have a public demonstration on the Boston Common. It was violently broken up largely by students. The only reason I was supposed to be a speaker, but nobody could speak. Saved from being to shreds by a couple hundred state police. Take a look at the Boston Globe the next day, the liberal newspaper. It was praising the counter demonstrators and denouncing those who dared to stand up and say, "Maybe we should not bomb North Vietnam." That is October (19)65. Take a look at Congress, Senator Mansfield, who later pretended to be at Dove, which is a total lie. It was denouncing the demonstrators for their terrible behavior, for daring to stand up against the state and so on. I mean, that was October (19)65. It was a good discipline totalitarian-style culture. Couple years later it did erupt, thankfully, and you can pretty well time it. Like I say, it was in Wisconsin. It was a little bit earlier and there were small SDS demonstrations, but it really took off in about (19)67. And that was the time when Bernard Fall was describing what I said, much too late. And in fact, there has been a massive effort since to suppress what happened, deny what happened. It was so successful that by 1977, Carter was asked at a press conference, "Do we owe the Vietnamese reparation any debt for what we did to them?" His answer was, "We owe them no debt because the destruction was mutual." That is 1977. I mean, if somebody said that in Russia about Afghanistan, we would call it revival of Nazism. And by the time you get to Ronald Reagan, it was a noble cause. You get to George Bush number one, and he said, "Well, we can never forgive the Vietnamese for what they did to us, but we will maybe relax some of the constraints on them and allow them into the world if they face the one moral issue remaining from the war. Namely devoting themselves to finding the bones of pilots who they shot down maliciously." As if they were flying over central Iowa. Well, that is the elite culture and the media and so on. There has been a massive attempt to reject and deny what happened. And what happened is what Bernard Fall described. But try to find it somewhere. Try to find it in the textbook. I try to find it in the press, try to find it in Congress, even in scholarships that is way out the fringe. If fact you take a look at the elite culture, there's never anything more than, "Well, it was a mistake." Say Anthony Lewis in the New York Times way out at the extremist, at the extreme of the media when the war ended in (19)75, his retrospective was, "We entered with blundering efforts to do good," which is kind of like a totalogy if the state does it, it's good. So, we entered with blundering efforts to do good. But by 1969 it was clear that it was a disaster too costly to us. You could have read that in the Nazi general staff after Stalin threat, that is called criticism here. But among the general population that is not the view. And they did become more civilized, although elite sectors did not, the media did not. And for people like Cambridge, of course it is a catastrophe, you are supposed to obey. You are supposed to be quiet and obey the rulers.
SM (20:06):
But they Beats were pretty important too on this, were not they in terms of they influenced some-
NC (20:13):
They did.
SM (20:13):
Yeah. Because when you think about Ginsburg and Kerouac, Cassidy and that group-
NC (20:17):
And that goes back to the (19)50s.
SM (20:17):
They were a challenge to authority.
NC (20:20):
Yeah, it was a challenge, which was part of the background for what happened in the (19)60s. So sure, it was there, the counterculture was there. And those who want to reimpose discipline and ensure that there is no functioning democracy, and that people are obedient and passive, what they focus on is the fringe of craziness in the (19)60s, which was a fringe of craziness. You focus on that. And yet, so you know, scream about the bra burning, but not feminism. Okay, that is a way to try to reimpose discipline, obedience. But we do not have to live in a totalitarian culture just cause the elite sectors wanted.
SM (21:03):
We know that from history that SDS was a real, to me, it was a great organization. Students from Democratic Society, participatory democracy. And I just interviewed Mark Rudd recently and some of Kent State at the 40th Remembrance, and he admits the mistakes that were made that really affect him when we destroyed SDS. And that hurts him even more. The history of SDS and then they only think about the weatherman. And Dr. King talked about-
NC (21:36):
Weatherman and PL.
SM (21:37):
Yeah.
NC (21:39):
By (19)68 they self-destroyed.
SM (21:40):
Right.
NC (21:40):
They split into Weathermen and PL. Yes. And I remember that, in fact. I do not know if Mark Rudd remembers, but I was very critical of what he was doing in Columbia in 1965. In fact, was actually invited by his parents to come to their house so they could dress me down for criticizing what their wonderful son was doing. He may not remember.
SM (22:05):
The violence aspect is probably the negative part because to me, and I would like your thoughts on this, when we are not only talking about the Weathermen, now we are talking about in the American Indian movement where Alcatraz was a very, I think it was a very valid effort, but Wounded Knee turned into violence. You had the Black Panthers, and of course Bobby Seals says, "Oh, we were not in a violent group. We just had... Somebody else has guns. We have to have guns." So, the concept of the Black Panthers was kind of scary. The guns at Cornell University in (19)69 was certainly scary.
NC (22:44):
But let us take the violence in the Black Panthers. There was violence in the Black Panthers. Two Black Panthers were murdered. I mean, there was a major campaign by the national political police, FBI, to destroy the Panthers by violence. And it led as far as Gestapo-style assassination. I mean, in December 1969, the Chicago police was set up by the FBI, raided a Black Panther apartment and murdered one of their, Fred Hampton, the major organizer in bed in a 4:00 AM raid-raid. Also marked. That is Gestapo-style assassination at the hands of the state. Yeah, that was violence. Is that what people are talking about?
SM (23:35):
No, they are talking about the other end.
NC (23:36):
Yeah, they are talking about a student holding a gun. Not about the national political police, murdering Black Panther organizer. Yeah. So, a lot to talk about reality and fiction, but it's fiction that is favored by the Gingrich's.
SM (23:55):
I would be curious too, your thoughts on Black power because of the fact that Dr. King was a non-violent protest, Bayard Rustin, who was from Westchester, went to the national tribute on Bayard a couple years back. Bayard had a very important debate with Malcolm X. It was, I think, in 1965, I think it was at Columbia, I think. And then of course Dr. King, that famous scene of Stokely Carmichael and Dr. King with his arms in basically saying, "Your time has passed." And Malcolm was saying that, "Bayard Rustin, your time has passed." By any means necessary.
NC (24:32):
Let us take a look at what happened. I mean, I happened to be in favor of... I was involved in non-violent resistance. And I thought, well, this was a wrong and a mistake. But nevertheless, let us look at what happened. As long as Martin Luther King was denouncing racist sheriffs in Alabama, he was very popular in the north. But then what happened afterwards, "I had a dream"? He turned to class issues. He turned, first of all, to opposition to Vietnam War, strong opposition and to class issues. He started a poor people's campaign. In fact, he was murdered, remember, in Memphis when he was helping to support a sanitation workers' strike. He was on his way to Washington for a poor people's campaign. Well, at that point, he was already being vilified. And in fact, if you take a look at the memorials to King every January 15th, they are overwhelmingly pure hypocrisy. They talk about the time when he was attacking racist Alabama sheriffs. Not the time when he was trying to organize poor people, was being vilified by northern liberals and was assassinated.
SM (25:42):
That is beautiful because that is the truth. And I firmly believe, and this is just me, and I would love your thoughts on this, that if Dr. King was alive today in his 80s, that even though we have got a day in memory of him, I think he would be sensitive because he was about we, it was not about me. And he also always talked-
NC (26:08):
But those days are not about him, they are about him when he was acceptable to the power system. It was about him when he was denouncing racist Alabama sheriffs. Yeah, we can all support that. How about when he is supporting organizing a poor people's movement or criticizing the Vietnam War? No, no, then he was becoming irrational and extreme. And we have to suppress that. So, the celebrations of Martin Luther King are not about him. They are about the part of him that is acceptable to power systems.
SM (26:41):
Well, I am amazed too because I studied this, and I found out that the two people that have the largest FBI records are Dr. King and Eleanor Roosevelt. Eleanor Roosevelt.
NC (26:54):
In fact, the largest state repression program in American history was Coen Dupro, which was mostly during the democratic administrations of the (19)60s. And then it started against the Communist Party and then the Puerto Rican nationalists and the Native American movement and the Black movement and the entire new left. And the women's movement, the Panthers, everyone, it was huge regression, totally criminal, led all the way to assassinations. It is wiped out American history.
SM (27:32):
You would have been a great speaker at Kent State. I do not know if you have ever been one of the speakers there, but they had the 43-remembrance and...
NC (27:40):
I have spoken there.
SM (27:45):
I feel that the two people that were missing this year at the Remembrance were you and Howard Zen. Now I am not sure if Howard would have... Dr. Zen would have made it, but I think your voice would have been very important there. Your thoughts on... Kent State to me was a watershed moment for a lot of people felt that everything kind of went belly up after Kent State, that pretty soon the giraffe was coming to an end and young white children, and then of course two Black children or young children were killed at Jackson State 10 days later. What does that mean to the end of so-called the anti-war movement or the (19)60s? Kent State and Jackson State were the line of demarcation.
NC (28:40):
Kent State is the one that enters history, not Jackson Street, because Blacks were being killed all the time. For example, Fred Hampton.
SM (28:50):
I always have to check this too. Sure. We are doing fine. Okay.
NC (28:54):
Kent State became a major movement because they were privileged white students. And yes, that did tell people who had made fun of themselves as victims that you too could be victims, but I do not think that was the end by any means. In fact, the Kent State was... After that came the mayday in Washington mass movement to try to close down Washington. I was there with Howard, in fact, other protests. The protest became strong enough so that they impelled Congress to terminate the bombing of Cambodia, August 1973. And they were strong enough so that the US had to withdraw from Vietnam matter. In fact, they remained strong enough so that the US had to narrowly constrain the invasion of Iraq and never got anywhere near the Vietnam War. The attacks, they could not just take a look, the casualty tools. They could not do any of the things that Kennedy and Johnson could do. And there was massive protest about it. So, I do not think it ended then. I just think it took new forms. But as I said, things like the solidarity movement, which is unique in the history of imperialism, it has never happened before. I mean, in France, nobody that organized to live in an Algerian village to try to help the people and maybe defend them with a white face. But thousands of Americans were doing that in the (19)80s in Central American wars. And now it is the international solidarity movements all over the world. One of the ships that just tried to break the guys at Flotilla was the Rachel Corrie. That is an American kid who was killed by a caterpillar bulldozer trying to protect the home. Things like that did not happen in the past.
SM (30:47):
You talked about the contributions, all the movements took place, the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Many of them were offshoots of the civil rights movement because that was kind of a teacher to the other movements, the anti-war movement and the women's movement, even the gay and lesbian and certainly Earth Day in the environmental movement. Gaylord Nelson used that as the teachings as examples of it.
NC (31:09):
And that was it. That was the 1970, (19)71.
SM (31:11):
Right.
NC (31:12):
It is after the (19)60s.
SM (31:13):
Do you think that is that one of the greatest contributions of the Boomer generation are all the movements that developed over issues? Because today I think they are somewhat being criticized as being segregated. There used to be when you had the anti-war movements in the past, you would have all these groups together. Do you think there is a segregation, or this is there is...
NC (31:37):
They are supposed to be illusion. I mean, you had the big marches together for about two years. It is (19)68 and (19)67 through (19)69. It is a moment. It was important. It was focused on a major atrocity. Probably the major crime in the post-Second World War period was focused on that, trying to end it. And then it expanded in many different directions, and it should have. So, the feminist movement, for example, which probably has had more effect on American society than any other. Now that is from the (19)70s. It began in the (19)60s, but it really took off in the (19)70s. The environmental movement is (19)70s up until today. The anti-nuclear movement, which had like 80 percent of the population, that was the early (19)80s. Solidarity movements, which were massive and coming right out of mainstream America, incidentally. They were coming out of rural churches and Kansas and Arizona. That is the (19)80s. The global justice movement, (19)90s and today. All of this has its overall effect has been to civilized the country, which is exactly why it is hated and vilified. Now if you take a look at it like any popular movement, you're going to find a fringe of craziness. See? So, then you can kind of blow that up and say, "Okay, that is the movement. It was all silliness. It was all Woodstock." It had a civilizing effect on the society. And by the early (19)70s, that was causing panic among elites. I read someday the book called The Crisis of Democracy. Very important.
SM (33:21):
Who is the author of...
NC (33:24):
It is the Trilateral Commission. Liberal, internationalist elites in Europe, the United States and Japan. The American rep with Samuel Huntington from Harvard. I mean this is essentially the Carter administration. In fact, the Carter administration was drawn almost entirely from their ranks. And The Crisis of Democracy is concerned with the fact that the country was getting civilized. They could not stand it. These are the liberals, notice not the right wing. The right wing wanted law and order and so on. This is the liberals. They said there is too much democracy. There is an what they called an excessive of democracy. Now we have to have more moderation in democracy. People who are used to be passive and obedient in the good old days are now press entering the political arena to press their demands. So, there is a turmoil and challenges and that is no good. We have to have more moderation and get back in your box, follow orders, more indoctrination. That is the liberals. And that is the early (19)70s. And a lot of things happened then. That is specific number one of the motives for the drug war, surely, was to try to head off a very dangerous development. By the 1960s, many people, many young people, but also plenty of others, were beginning to question the doctrine that everything that the state does is noble, maybe mistaken, but noble. That is every state tries to impose that doctrine. We are noble. Maybe we make mistakes. You pick anyone you want, the most horrible monsters. That is the doctor. And that was accepted in the 19s through the (19)50s and so on. (19)60s began to be challenged and that was frightening. So, something had to be done to make us the victims. People were beginning to understand what say Fall had been saying years earlier, that it was the Vietnamese that were the victims. We were destroying them. That is dangerous. Well, the drug war was intended to make us the victims. It began with fantasies about an addicted army, mostly fantasies. You get Walter Cronkite; you are getting up on television saying that "Our brave boys in Vietnam are being attacked by the Vietnamese with guns and with drugs." They are trying to addict us, turn us into a nation of junkies and this rare society. So, we are really the victims of the Vietnamese. That is Walter Cronkite. I am not talking about Glenn Beck. That is Walter Cronkite. Liberal hero. And they manage to switch it around. We are the victims. That is why in 1977, Carter could say, "We owe them no debt because the destruction is mutual." And it is an amazing propaganda chief, having destroyed three countries.
SM (36:22):
When we think of the criticisms of presidents, at least Boomers when they were young, we think of Johnson and we think of Nixon, and I do not think of Ford that much. And certainly, whether you like Ronald Reagan, it is mostly an anti-Nixon, an anti-Johnson. Of course, Johnson was a liberal and Nixon was the most liberal Republican you could find.
NC (36:46):
I will tell you; he was the last liberal president in the United States. After that came away with conservatism beginning with Carter.
SM (36:54):
What you are really saying is that in terms of helping civilization as you see it, Boomers were very important in the protesting and setting a tone that we are not the most noble people because Vietnam. The two terms that seem to always bring fire... I have been in the university now for 30 some years. Two words that always seem to raise the, let us not talk about it or let us not go there, Vietnam and quagmire. You meant quagmire. David Halberstam. You mentioned those two words.
NC (37:26):
An interesting notion. See that is David Halberstam, who was a super hawk. You take a look at his reporting. It was pretty good reporting. But why was he criticized? He was criticized because he said the war is not going well. That is like criticizing some Nazi after Stalingrad who said the war is not going well. We do not call that criticism. And elsewhere we call it criticism. Here, but it is not. He was never Randy Warman, Halberstam. He was a decent reporter. He described what he saw, and he noticed what in fact the US command that polices the lower levels of it knew pretty well. Yeah, it is going pretty badly. The messages they were sending up to the top were, "It is going wonderfully." And he was criticized and considered anti-war for saying it is not true. Is that a criticism? We do not call that... It is an indication of how corrupt the intellectual culture is. We cannot conceive of the notion of criticism. And in fact, the degree of, let us say, take the American history, think there is some real crimes in American history like extermination of the Indigenous population. Why are we here? Is that a crime? Some of the major crimes of history. We are a settler colonial society. That is the worst kind of imperialism. Oh, normal imperialism just subjugates the population. Settler colonialism wipes them out. That is millions of people who were exterminated, and the founding fathers knew it. Like John Quincy Adams talked about what he called that hapless race of Native Americans who we are exterminating with such perfidious cruelty that one of the crimes for which someday God will punish us. It is John Quincy Adams, the founder of the Manifest Destiny, the great grand strategist. But is that part of American history? No. I mean, is slavery part of American history? Well, slavery is there only to say, "Well, we got over. Look how we got over it." In fact, we never got it.
SM (39:44):
That is why Howard's in this book, the alternative American history book is really good.
NC (39:48):
That is why it was very important.
SM (39:49):
That little booklet of essays is... It is just unbelievable.
NC (39:55):
But notice that his book just changed the consciousness of a generation by bringing out elementary facts that should have been in every elementary school for centuries. But it's considered radical because it was talking about elementary truths, and it still is not penetrated intellectually leads. So, if you read the New York Review of books, for example, the leading liberal intellectual left liberal intellectual journal, an article about a year ago by Russell Baker, who's a critical left analyst. And he talks about how when... He said when Columbus got to the Western Hemisphere, he found an empty continent with maybe a million people from the steaming tropics to the Antarctic stragglers. Kind of like he is off by maybe a hundred million or so. And they had an advanced civilization kind of like Europe except in savagery. But that is the New York Review denying the extermination of tens of millions of people. Today I checked to see there was not a single letter protesting.
SM (41:06):
When you look at the wall that was built and finished in 1982, and all the veterans coming back when majority of them felt like they were not welcomed home. And we know the history of how they were treated upon their return.
NC (41:20):
Well, that history is mostly mythology.
SM (41:23):
It is?
NC (41:24):
The spiting and all that stuff.
SM (41:25):
I know the spitting part, but in terms of the veterans of foreign wars, they would not even welcome a Vietnam vets back-
NC (41:32):
That is right. Because it was not a victory.
SM (41:35):
Okay.
NC (41:36):
They want victories. Actually, was a victory for the United States that destroyed Vietnam, but it was not a big enough victory. So, the super jingoists say you guys did not hack it.
SM (41:48):
When Jan Scruggs wrote the book To Heal a Nation, I had been to the Vietnam Memorial now for 35 times in a row, paying respects. I knew Louis Puller at the end of his life, and that is a great book, Fortunate Son. And I have noticed that the wall was built to heal the veterans. It was to be a non-political statement and it was to help the families of the loved ones who died and those who served. I noticed that there still is a lot of politics there. It is not on the stage, but just you hear it by what people wear, what people say. It is the body language, it is everything. So, we have got to come a long way. What do you think the wall has done in terms of healing the nation, if it has, because that is what Jan Scruggs was hoping he was going to do, the nation as well as the Vietnam veterans and their families. And I am not even sure if he was even thinking of the anti-war people.
NC (42:51):
I mean, the veterans and their families deserve sympathy and respect. But the big issue is not healing the nation. It is getting the nation to face up to what it did after the Second World War. The problem in Germany was not healing Germany. No, the problem was getting Germans to face up to what they did. It is the same with us. It's not just the defeated who have to face up the what they believe. It is also the victors. In fact, A. J. Muste, great pastor, he once said that the problem after a war is with the victors, that they think they have shown that violence pays, and they are the problem. Watch out for them, not the defeated. And that is right. And in Vietnam though, it was not a super victory. We did not turn Vietnam into the Philippines like a miserable colony. Nevertheless, it was a substantial victory for the United States. When Carter said the destruction was mutual, I mean, the fact that people did not... There was not an uprising of protest. It's amazing. I mean, take a walk in Cordini Province and New York. Is it the same? Destruction was mutual, but that is Carter.
SM (44:18):
Right.
NC (44:20):
That is a lot for us to be ashamed of.
SM (44:22):
When you go to the wall and you stand there, obviously everybody has different perceptions, but when you look at that granite wall and all those names... Two more minutes?
Speaker 3 (44:35):
He is the boss.
NC (44:35):
Yeah. Two more minutes.
SM (44:36):
Yep. What do you see?
NC (44:39):
What I see is sympathy and pain for the victims. The victims include the American soldiers, includes their families, but a thousand times more, a million times more, it includes the countries and the people we destroyed.
SM (44:58):
The three million who died in Vietnam.
NC (45:00):
Probably four million or so were killed in Vietnam. And huge numbers of loss in Cambodia. It is countries that were just destroyed. That part's in turn to moonscapes.
SM (45:13):
I guess that is... That would be fine. Thank you very-
(End of Interview)
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
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Date of Interview
2 August 2015
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Marwan Tawfiq
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Abdullah Qassab
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Interview with Abdullah Qassab
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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Date of Interview
9 June 2015
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Marwan Tawfiq
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Adil Sharif
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Interview with Adil Sharif
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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1 July 2017
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Marwan Tawfiq
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Ahmed Raheem
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Interview with Ahmed Raheem
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
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12 December 2014
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Marwan Tawfiq
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Aram Hama Salih and Kwestan
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Interview with Aram Hama Salih and Kwestan
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Kurdish Oral History
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Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.
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An account of the resource
<p>In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project.</p>
<p>These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a></p>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a><br /><br /><a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a>
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Date of Interview
15 April 2013
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Erdem Ilter
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Halima Taha
Language
Kurdish
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
Audio
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Halima Taha