172 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/48cf92a13b6e89c7f47a829e9c715476.mp3 263cf382a4acdf270b4ddc6036f0ad58 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview - 25 March 2015 - 4 September 2015 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ako Serdeshti Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ako Serdeshti https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3a3ab200478fc9e4ca6196324c43ba3b.mp3 13440d8767efb25016dfde36d26d0d39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview - 11 November 2014 - 29 November 2014 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Marwan Tawfiq Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Araz Khorsheed Language Kurdish Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Araz Khorsheed https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d96699ab0ba190f76ffd30adcc2fe4fb.mp3 e8d3af19907218c27e7991f1f71ca306 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1/16/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henry Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Henry attended Harpur College along with Syracuse University, but left to fly in the Airforce. After being stationed in Iceland and South Caroline, Henry earned the rank of First Lieutenant. He currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Victoria. Together, they have two children and five grandchildren."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Henry attended Harpur College along with Syracuse University, but left to fly in the Airforce. After being stationed in Iceland and South Caroline, Henry earned the rank of First Lieutenant. He currently resides in Binghamton with his wife, Victoria. Together, they have two children and five grandchildren. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Turkey; genocide; Armenia; assimilation; Tashnag; Hunchak; politics; family names; Endicott Johnson; Binghamton; Armenian language; traditions; discrimination; identity; church; dance; Armenian Genocide march; United Nations "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Turkey; genocide; Armenia; assimilation; Tashnag; Hunchak; politics; family names; Endicott Johnson; Binghamton; Armenian language; traditions; discrimination; identity; church; dance; Armenian Genocide march; United Nations Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Henry Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 16 January 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:06 JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian; I am interviewing Henry Kachadourian for the Binghamton University Oral History Project. Today is January 16, 2017. Can you please start with some basics, your name birth place, biographical information? So what is your name? Please state your name? 0:25 HK: Henry Kachadourian. 0:28 JK: Who were your parents? 0:30 HK: My parents were Parsegh and Yeghsa Kachadourian. My mother’s maiden name was Arslanian. 0:39 JK: And where are they from? 0:42 HK: They are from the state of Harput which is now part of Turkey. 0:49 JK: And how did they immigrate to the United States? 0:53 HK: Well, it was an unusual situation, my grandfather came here first and was sending money to them back in Armenia to migrate– My mother to migrate here, with her mother and her other brother and sister. My father migrated from France to United States. My mother went to Montreal and at the time when she got here they cut off the immigration quota, she could not come in legally so she smuggled into the country with the help of her brother, my uncle, Charlie Arslanian. My father he took a boat from Toulouse, France to the United States. He was supposed to go on to go the boat, the boat stopped in Boston, Massachusetts and the boat was supposed to go on to Ellis Island but he got off at Boston because his godfather was there in Worcester, Massachusetts. So he got off at Boston and he came to United States to Worcester, to Boston to Worcester, Massachusetts. My mother smuggled from Montreal to Boston with the Montreal-Boston train and, and with the help of her– my uncle, Charlie Arslanian. 2:26 JK: And what was their reasoning for coming to the United States? 2:31 HK: To have a better life. 2:33 JK: Was it during the genocide? 2:35 VK: To escape the genocide. 2:37 HK: Yes, basically the genocide, the Armenian genocide in Turkey. 2:43 JK: Now did they leave– were they effected by the genocide at all, did they any– 2:49 HK: Yes, my mother lost her brother, and her mother and her mother and mother was killed by the Turks and her younger brother was taken by the Turks and brought up as a Turk, she had lost contact with them she had to march through the center of Turkey in genocide when she was transported by the Turks to– she ended up in Beirut, Lebanon and from there, a relative helped her to come to America. 3:28 JK: Okay and was there– you were saying your father, he lived in the mountains as a– your father lived in the mountains– 3:39 HK: My father and his family were sheep herders, they had very little education and my mother who came from the village, where there were schools, my mother was well educated and her family was well educated. My father was a sheep herder but he came to America, he could not even read or write Armenian even. My mother had to teach him how to speak, he knew how to speak Armenian but he could not read and write and my mother had to teach him. 4:15 JK: And what was the story about your father with involvement with the Turkish government and how they were escaping? 4:24 HK: Well, when the genocide started they went after, the first state they went– The Turks went after, interior Turkey so other nationalities or other people in Turkey would not have known there was a massacre going on. They started with the inner Turkey, the first state they went after, they went into was Harput, the reason for that was it was inner Turkey and there was less contact to the outside world. Also it was known for a fact that the Harputsis were real Armenian fighters, I mean they were like some of them were like renegades and the Turks wanted to that bunch first, that group of Armenians first before they got out of hand and the next state they went after was Arapkir, which your grandmothers from and her parents from and that was the second state they went. When they came to get my father they only sent five or six Turkish soldiers at there up there in the mountains. Well that did not cut, they did not work out because my grandfather, my father’s clan were warriors and they took care of those Turks. Before you know it they sent a brigade and captured my father’s clan and other mountaineer people and marched them down to village. When they were marching them down the village, my father and my uncle and another Armenian man dove into the river or lake there and swam for it. The other Armenian man died which I do not know his name, he got wounded, I think my uncle might have got wounded too, and that was how escaped from being slaughtered. My mother she was told to the fields to work, my mother did not listen to anybody, she went to school, went to classes and while in classes she was not supposed to be there she still stayed there. She wanted to be educated and when the slaughter started to take place in the village of Harput, that was the state but the city was named Hoğe. She was called Hoğesis. 7:04 VK: Oh Hoğesis. 7:05 HK: Right. My father was from Astvad [Astvadzadzin], that area was called Astvad in the state of Harput and he was they were Astvadsis. When the slaughter took place where my mother was, they marched all the young people out and got rid of the elderly people, they took my mother’s brother and made him into a Turk, adopt him into a Turk family and mother eventually ended up after the march some place into Beirut, Lebanon and her uncle, her uncle, Minas Kaprelian helped her come to America and that was how she got here. 7:56 JK: Wow, okay so how did your parents meet, did they meet in America or you were saying how– 8:04 VK: Well, my mother smuggled into this country on the Bos– the Montreal-Boston train and she got a job as a salad girl in the Biltmore hotel and plaza in Providence, Rhode Island. [laughs] And from there, another Armenian who had an eye on my mother and mother did not care for him, he went and turned, turned my mother in and her brother. They were working there, another Armenian did, that they were–that her– she was in the country illegally and her brother smuggled her here from Montreal. When my mother was still at work, they picked up her brother, Charles Arslanian. Garabed–the first name in Armenian is Garabed, they had arrested him and they were waiting for my mother. One of the other chamber maid Armenian women that worked at the hotel at Biltmore in Providence warned my mother the police were waiting for her. So she never went back to her room and went strictly to Boston, I mean Worcester, Mass to the first church and the priest there and his wife hid my mother in the first church of Armenian Church in North America. It was a small, like a one room church with a backroom to it and that was where they hid my mother and my father who was looking for a wife heard about my mother and he came to Worcester at first and came to Binghamton because of our cousin Ohanian wanted him to come under– come to Binghamton he had job for him at Endicott-Johnson. On weekends my, Charlie, his friend Chuck [unintelligible] and my father would drive from after work on Friday all the way to Worcester, Mass and that was how my mother met, my father met my mother. After the second trip, he met; going back he brought a wedding– an engagement ring. Well my mother did not care for my father but she liked the ring [laughs] so the priest says wait a minute, if you want this fella’s ring you got to have the fella. [laughs] And that was how they met, my mother, my father brought my mother they got married they came to Binghamton, they got married and then– and for fifteen years, the federal authorities were looking for my mother. She– my mother was on the run, so when World War II started all the– all aliens or non-citizens had to register for World War Interviewer. The minute my mother registered, that was when they caught her and that was the registry took place some place on Charles and Clinton Street in Binghamton, New York and after that my mother was placed on house arrest and we all, my father, my mother and um that was 1940. And my sister, my two brothers we all had to go to a federal court in Syracuse, New York to be deported. 12:21 JK: Oh my gosh, so what happened after that? 12:38 HK: The war broke out and they ̶ my mother, my mother went on to become a citizen. 12:51 JK: That is crazy. 12:54 HK: I did have the picture where she got her citizenship, I do not see it here. Here is my mother’s picture when she became a citizen and it was 1945. 13:19 JK: Wow. 13:21 HK: She went to night school to learn how– my mother learned how to speak English from reading the funnies. She was self-educated, looking at the pictures like Little Orphan Annie, Dick Tracy that was how she got a basic idea how– the understanding of English. Another thing, one thing unique about my mother and father like most Americans that immigrated here, most foreign people they wanted to become Americans back then, it was not like today. They learned the language, they dressed American and father wore a suit and tie, every day after work. 14:08 JK: So they assimilated to the culture of America, they assimilated to the culture– 14:13 HK: Right, they wanted to be Americans and show that they were better than other Americans that were here. 14:20 JK: Now in the community, have they, when they came to Binghamton and lived here did they stay here their whole lives? 14:35 HK: Yeah, they mi– when they, they became, they came to– about 1936, (19)37 they bought their first piece of property and in 1938 and in 1940 they ended up– in 1936 we got evicted out in the street because we could not pay the rent, all our furniture was put out in the street. 14:56 JK: Oh my gosh. 14:57 HK: And we were on the corner of Jarvis and Clinton and from there my mother went to the– Welfare came and helped up and put us back in, payed the rent to landlord. A pharmacist on Clinton Street, near Philadelphia sales, they paid the month’s rent, I think the rent was either five or six dollars a month. [laughs] And my mother went to Binghamton city bank, who held a mortgage on the building [phone rings], held a mortgage on the building, that we were living on the corner of Jarvis and Clinton. Somehow, somewhere my mother got enough money to make a down payment and bought the building for five thousand dollars. 15:53 JK: Wow. 15:54 HK: I was with here, it was a day of rain– it was raining and we walked back all the way back to Jarvis Street. My mother could not believe that she bought the building, she made us walk back in the rain, to verify that we had bought that piece of property and everybody in the neighborhood ridiculed her and joked about her buying the building. They said you do not own it but she did, the bankers told her, ‘you bought the building Alice, the building belongs to you.’ 16:26 JK: That is crazy, that is amazing, wow. So growing up, in Binghamton, did you guys have a lot of Armenian experiences and culture going on here? Was there other Armenians? 16:40 HK: Growing up, there were two factions of Armenians, there were the Tashnag party and the Hunchak party and because we were very poor, we associated with most, even though we went to the church which was controlled by the Hunchaks here, that was the Tashnag, I associated because they were poor like we were and they had an Armenian school on Jarvis Street and my friends mother, Mrs. [unintelligible] taught Armenian school there. And that was where it, it helped me to learn Armenian. 17:17 JK: Now did you attend normal high school in like Binghamton or did you go to the Armenian school? 17:23 HK: No, we went to public schools, we were very poor, my brother, the doctor who is a doctor now, and I we were taken out of school because we wore bathing suits, we did not have clothing. We wore bathing suits to– we did not have normal clothing to go to school because we were on welfare. We wore bathing suits to school and we were–they were ready to take– break the family up, take us away from our parents, so we had to like for some reason or another we went through that period and eventually got back on our feet and before we moved into the second floor on Jarvis and Clinton and we were tenants there and got evicted and eventually buying the place, we lived in our cousins. Because my father came to Binghamton because his cousin was here and my cousin got him a job, we lived in the basement. 18:37 JK: Wow. 18:37 HK: And then from the basement, of course we had to pay rent to our cousin [laughs] and we went from the basement up to the attic and the rooms were separated with a clothesline with a blanket. [laughs] 18:57 JK: Wow. 19:00 HK: And uh, the toilet was a potty. [laughs] 19:05 JK: Wow, crazy. 19:07 HK: That was how tough it was and then I grew up, I grew up I had to be tough in that area, anybody who knew the first ward was one of the toughest areas to grow up, it was a very poor area, quite a few people in poverty, there was other people in the same shoes or even worse than we were. 19:35 JK: Wow. So when you were in high school, did you have other Armenian friends? 19:39 HK: Yeah, I had a lot of Armenian friends here but there was not that many families, basically we did not have regular church service, we had church maybe once every oh I would say once every couple of months they would, a priest would come from out of town to how service here in our church, 38 Corbin Avenue which is called Saint Gregory Armenian Church. 20:07 JK: Which is still here today? 20:08 HK: What? 20:08 JK: Which is still here today, right? 20:11 HK: Yeah, from, that church was acquired sometime around nineteen twenty-nine when a group of Armenians here in the area and then it was very difficult in those times. I used to have to, when there was some– when I was a young boy; I used to have to shovel coal into the furnace to keep the church warm during services. And then if I forgot, I would get a bop over my head and get down there and throw more coal in the furnace. 20:43 VK: No wonder you do not have any hair. [laughs] 20:51 HK: And the only way to get furnace was to go outside the church, around the outside, pick up a wooden door, trap door and go down into the basement. 21:04 JK: Oh my gosh! They made you do that [phone rings], that is crazy. 21:11 HK: And also, there was another Armenian boy, that I grew up with, mostly were in the same area and they were my age or younger and there were a few that were older but quite a few went on to be, we have a community here, that was unique to any place else in the United States with the Armenians. We had had, somewhere between fourteen and seventeen young people went on to become M.D.s, doctors and that was unique in the United States, we had the most doctors, self-grown doctors in the United States, in the small community of Binghamton, New York. 21:56 JK: Wow that is crazy, so growing up, oh let me get back to this, did you have any siblings growing up? 22:04 HK: Yes I had one sister and two brothers. 22:09 JK: And what is their age difference to you? 22:13 HK: My sister is three years older than I am and my other brother, the doctor, he is a year and half younger than I am and the other one is four years younger than I am. 22:26 JK: And could you please state their first names, their first names. 22:32 HK: My youngest brother is Arslan, the next youngest is Aristaks and I am the second oldest, Henry, and my Armenian name is Harutun and Louise is the oldest, my sister and her Armenian name is Lalezar. 22:51 JK: So, your names, did they switch when you came to America, your names? 22:58 HK: No I was born, we all– my brothers and sister and I were born here. 23:05 JK: Okay got it, yes, and so growing up did you were your called Harutun or Henry more often? 23:14 HK: Well in church, I was called Harutun, among the old timers, I was called Harutun, in school I was called Henry, I was going to be called, when I was born in May of 1931, I was going to be called, my mother wanted me to be called Harry, because that was her brother that was taken by the Turks and when my mother found out there was already one Harry, Harry Kradjian here, she says nothing to worry I am not going to have two Harrys in town so said one of the RN has asked her why do not you– told her why do not you name him Henry and that was what she did. 24:07 JK: Do you know what Harutun means in Armenian, is it a direct translation? 24:11 HK: It means Harry. 24:12 JK: Do you know what about your brother’s and sister’s what they mean, are they– 24:17 HK: Lalezar I think Lalezar [tulip garden in Turkish and Kurdish,] means flower, Louise in Armenian, it means flower. Aristaks that name was, it is in the Bible, Aristaks my mother got that name and then my younger brother Arslan, he was named after the last name of the–her maiden name Arslanian. That means. Arslan means strong. 24:49 JK: Okay, There is, you know how your name means something, your last name in Armenian means, it was your occupation, like– 25:00 HK: No, I do not know that. 25:02 JK: You did not know that? 25:04 HK: No. 25:04 JK: So like my mom’s side, Kabakian it has to do with squash and pumpkins, so it would make sense that they sold– like had a farm and sold squash and– 25:25 HK: Well, in some– in the old–in pre–in the early times of Armenia– early periods you were named after your father, if your father’s name was Kachadour, you were called Kachadourian, that meant the son of Kachadour– 25:41 JK: Yeah. 25:44 HK: If your mother was Yaksan, your last name was–your mother–you were named Yaksanian, you were named after–but that changed over time. Whatever your grandfather’s name was, your father would take, and then you would take your father’s name but the Scandinavians today I do not–when I was–up until 1915, Norway and Sweden and Iceland or Denmark, they still carry on that tradition. If your mother’s name was Helda, you were called Heldadaughter and your father’s name was– your last name became Heldadaughter if your father’s name was John, you were called Johnson, Johnson, son of Johnson that was how was with the Armenians. 26:38 JK: Yeah, very interesting. Now, did you guys have any– in Binghamton– did you guys have any Armenian get together other than church? Like, picnics or dances? 26:55 HK: Yes, I can relate going back to the picnics going back nineteen thirties, we did not have an automobile and somebody would or some family who had automobiles would have to pick us up and take us to the picnics. Soft drinks– for example, we were so poor; soft drinks were a nickel they sold at the picnic because I was so poor John Kachorian would give me a soft drink and hide it– I would hide it and so other people would not see it and I never forgot that. He worked at Endicott- Johnson and he was sort of like the head of the picnic along with Mr. Manoog Bogdasarian. They were like the church elders and they always had the picnics and our picnics were about up around Port Crane along the river bank. 27:54 JK: That is crazy. I remember hearing that because, another person who did the interviews, he interviewed some other local Armenians of Binghamton and they would say they– 28:07 HK: We did not, because we were poor we were looked at–we were looked down and only the side that did not go to the church, the Tashnags, they associated with us until 1950, until the fellows of my age and they, the generation ahead of me like Dr. Bogdasarian and Dr. Garabedian and Dr. Markarian and Dr. Avedisian, not Dr.–not Avedisian it was Abashians– they had– each one of these families had two or three doctors in the family. They were very hard working people and the one who set the– I would say Dr. Robert Bogdasarian, he went to the University of Michigan and then quite a few followed soon after that. 29:11 JK: That is crazy. 29:12 HK: I did not associate with– and then the Korean War came along and we all went our separate ways and when we came back we got married and had our own families. 29:25 JK: And you stayed in Binghamton? 29:26 HK: No I did not, I met my wife in Philadelphia. 29:30 VK: No, she is saying you stayed in Binghamton. 29:33 HK: Yes, I came– we finally– by way– I came– we came to Binghamton 29:39 JK: So growing up, there were a lot of Armenians in the community, did they– 29:14 HK: There were– I would say growing up in Jarvis Street School, in [inaudible] I would say in my class ahead of me and the class the next two or three classes behind, there were approximately about fifteen to twenty Armenians boys. 30:02 JK: That is a lot. 30:03 HK: And girls. 30:04 VK: For a small community that is quite a lot. 30:06 JK: And did they all migrate different places or did they stay in Binghamton like growing up? 30:11 HK: They all eventually came here for the same reason– their parents came here for work, Endicott- Johnson and the other shoe factory in Endicott– Dunn McCarthy’s– they made– Dunn McCarthy’s were known for making ladies shoes. 30:27 VK: She asked if they stayed in Binghamton. 30:29 JK: Like, now today are most of them– 30:30 HK: Well quite a few stayed except for the fact that some of them went from here to Detroit because the factory–auto industry and some before the World War II and some migrated because there was a lot more Armenians in Detroit at that time. There was about twenty to twenty five thousands Armenians in the– although there were quite a few that migrated to California, there is a large contingent of Armenians that live there and that was why they went there, so the– so their children would become Armenianized and not lose their heritage. 31:05 JK: That is crazy. So you can speak Armenian but– you can speak Armenian but you cannot write it, is that correct? 31:14 HK: I can speak but I cannot write, no. The only member of the family that could write Armenian is my sister, she can read and write. I cannot read Armenian either, I can only speak it. 31:26 JK: And have you ever wanted or have you ever traveled back to Armenia to the villages? 31:31 HK: No, never have everybody in the family except for me and my wife Victoria. 31:38 JK: Would you– if you had the chance would you like to go or no? 31:42 HK: If I was younger age, not being over eighty-five, I would, I just do not– I just do not have the ambition anymore. 31:56 JK: Did they– did your brothers and sisters, did they enjoy themselves in Armenia, did they learn a lot? 32:05 HK: Yes, they had, they said they enjoyed– they went sightseeing, they went and saw historical places and they saw where the first church were, and the church that is the symbol of Armenians. Armenians were not the first Christians in the world, but they were the first country to accept Christianity. And the historical church there in Etchmiadzin is still there today. It has been there for over two thousand years and they, the Muslims for two thousand years tried to convert the Armenians from Christians to Muslims and after two thousand years they left the Armenians alone. They said you would have to kill every one of them otherwise you just leave them alone. 33:01 JK: Yeah, very strong, we were very strong. 33:05 HK: You had to be strong otherwise you would have never survive. Right, honey? 33:10 VK: Yep. 33:12 JK: So um you did attend Armenian language school correct, right? You attended Armenian language school, growing up? 33:23 HK: No, in– lot a part of the (19)30s and early part of (19)40s, there was no school here at per se, one of the elder woman, one from the family– Armenian families who would teach Armenian school, and you had pay like twenty-five cents to go to class. 33:49 JK: Oh wow. 33:49 HK: Twenty-five cents for every class you came, you had to bring a quarter. 33:54 JK: That is crazy. 33:55 VK: Yeah, I never heard of such a thing. 33:57 JK: Wow! 34:00 HK: The reason for that was to pay the taxes on the building in the–it was not associated with the church or anything and it was hard times, it was like when Dr. Bagdasarian sister who helped pay, he was going to University of Michigan and his sister Lilian Bagdasarian later on she married and became Lilian [unintelligible]. She would come to our house after work at five o’clock and give Louise and I piano lessons for fifty cents an hour or fifty cents a half an hour and then– and she did that every week and I did not pick up the piano that well but Louise did very well and she learned how to play the piano and read music. 34:52 JK: Wow. So growing up did you guys have– your family– did you guys have Armenian friends or normal American friends growing up? 35:05 HK: I had both. I could not say one or the other, the Armenian friends were social, we would associate on weekends mostly. 35:17 JK: Okay. 35:18 HK: And we would get together on weekends, primarily either from the church or from the picnics. And then, my American friends were basically from school, and playing sports. 35:38 JK: Okay and did your friends, your American friends, did they know about Armenia like when you said you are Armenian, they did not know. 35:47 HK: My American friends did not have the foggiest idea what Armenian was. They did not have the foggiest idea. 35:56 VK: Our school teachers did not even know what Armenia was. 36:00 JK: Oh my gosh 36:01 HK: Did not have the foggiest idea. 36:05 VK: Did your teachers know Armenian, none of my teachers knew what Armenian was. 36:10 HK: The reason why our Armenian community was never united, we never had church or community center to go to and become part of, a part of the whole community and when we first got our priest to come here and after we had the church, he was getting paid I think twenty dollars a month, five dollars a week. After a year or two, a year he wanted a pay raise of five dollars for the month, we could not pay him so we told him to leave. He wanted a raise from twenty dollars a month to twenty-five. And that was our– and after that we did not have any more priests until, let us see, I would say around 1960s around when Father Arakelian came here, when he got married he came as Deacon from St. Nersess. From that–from 1930 to 1960, in the (19)60s or early (19)70s– later (19)60s we had a visiting priest that would come here like once a month, from the Diocese out of New York City. 37:40 JK: That is very interesting, wow. So did your celebrate a lot of Armenian traditions like Armenian Christmas for example. 37:49 HK: Yeah, we followed the Armenian traditions for Christmas, Easter and all the other religious Armenian holidays and Martyr’s day. 38:04 JK: And did you guys have any– what was it like growing up in your household? Did you guys have all like Armenian food– growing up? 38:19 HK: My mother, my mother did not have a good background because she was a young girl she was only like eight or nine years old when she way taken away by the Turks and she had really no experience-she had knowledge of Armenian food but knowing the recipe and making it, she did not have the expertise like when I used to visit other Armenian families or other churches they would know exactly. Once you would taste their food, you knew you were eating the real thing. My mother had to make up her own recipe. 39:02 JK: Now, was your mom– back in Armenia– was she separated by any of her family members? 39:09 HK: Hm? 39:09 JK: Did she– when she was separated by her family members in Armenia, did they ever reconnect or anything? 39:18 VK: When she was separated from her family, did she ever reconnect with her family? 39:25 HK: No, the ones over there she never reconnected, when she came here her, her father was dead–buried in Edison Cemetery in Lowell, Mass, it is a municipal cemetery but the plot– the people from her village in Harput and the village of Hoğe. They bought a plot for about with fifty or sixty people to be buried there that lived around Lowell, Massachusetts and they could be buried there with no trouble– no cost at all. And that is where my Uncle and my grandfather are buried there, yeah her mother was killed by the Turks and brother was taken by the Turks. 40:24 JK: And was it like– were they killed in Armenia or were they? 40:31 HK: No, they were killed in Armenia. 40:34 JK: So how did your sister get to escape? 40:39 HK: My mother? 40:39 VK: Your father 40:40 JK: Yes. 40:40 VK: Yeah, how did your father escape too? 40:42 HK: My father escaped? He dove into a river and– you are talking about my father now? 40:50 JK: Your mother, how did she- 40:51 HK: My mother? 40:52 JK: How did she escape? 40:53 HK: They had a march. They marched all the Armenians into the– into the– 40:57 JK: The desert? 41:00 HK: In Syria, into the desert to kill them. Somehow my mother– she was a go getter and she knew what was happening, so she ran and hid and I do not know how she survived but she eventually ended up in Beirut, Lebanon where her Aunt– where her cousin was. 41:24 JK: So she found her cousin? That is crazy. She found her cousin? Oh my God. 41:29 HK: Yeah and it was my cousin who gave them money and he gave her so she could immigrate to American and get to her brother. But we– she repaid– we repaid our uncle– our cousins over there in Beirut, when the war started in (19)75 or the banks were closed in Beirut, so we gave them between five and six thousand dollars and they wanted repay it but we said no, you do not have you, this is for helping our mother come to America. 42:11 JK: Wow. Very nice 42:12 HK: Believe me on your grandmother’s side, the Kabakians and the Kachadourians, we got no help, we did not any help from any Armenians for anybody and if we did get help we got help from the Main Street Baptist Church and the Protestants, or the Kachadourians did and we never forgot that, we repaid the Main Street Baptist Church by– then when they had their seventy fifth anniversary we made the short fall for the missionary in Africa. 42:52 JK: Wow that is amazing, so getting back to your life here in Binghamton, did you end up going to college once you left high school? Or did any of your siblings went to college? After graduating from high school did any of your siblings, including yourself, go to high school? 43:14 HK: Yes– a college– my sister went into nursing and became an RN [Registered Nurse], Louise. My brother went to Wayne State and then to Syracuse University became a doctor and I attended Harpur and Syracuse University at two years accredited college and I left school to fly in the Airforce. 43:41 JK: And, how long were you in the Air Force for? 43:44 HK: Approximately four years, I was stationed in Keflavik, Iceland, in air rescue and I was stationed in Charleston, South Carolina and I was in military air transport which is called MATCH and also at McGuire Airforce base. I raised to the rank of First Lieutenant. 44:02 JK: Wow that is amazing. Very cool. So after, after the Airforce you came back to Binghamton and then you met– 44:15 HK: No, I did not meet your grandmother, I was stationed in Keflavik, Iceland and my brother who was at Syracuse University was attending a medical get together– medical association group in Atlantic City, ran into my future wife, Victoria, at the hotel, got her name, my mother was afraid I might an Icelandic or a Scandinavian girl. So she sent me, my brother gave her the address of my– of your grandmother, Victoria– in Philadelphia and my mother got a hold of the address and mailed it to me and up in Keflavik, Iceland after World War II, there was real separate– the Airforce, Airforce and Navy flyers all built together their officers and we used to read each other’s mail. And one of the Navy Airforce Officer’s wrote a letter to my wife because I did not want to write the letter, they wrote the letter. 45:38 VK: I am just finding this out now, I did not even know this. 45:43 HK: –Wrote the letter and your grandmother, Victoria sends a picture of herself and the flyer said– the guys that wrote the letter were reading the mail, he says “Henry if you are not going to Philadelphia to check this out, we going to go to Philadelphia” and that was how I met your mother I mean my wife–your grandmother. 46:05 JK: That is amazing. Oh my gosh. 46:08 HK: So I really, I never met– listen, Jackie that is a true story. 46:20 VK: I never knew that. You know what happened. I was in Atlantic City and he comes knocking on the door and there was a party. So he pops his head in and we are short one girl at our party, this is Art now. So I said to my cousin, I said oh okay we could go and he says “oh no just one”– oh no and so later on when we went downstairs to talk to the girl at the desk for the bus, what time the bus is going to leave um, he pops up Art pops up so he said well can I have your name and address and all this kind of stuff. So I say to myself how is he going to remember, he will never remember because he did not have a pencil or paper so I say sure. And not knowing he had a pretty darn good memory. So he ships the name and address over to him– 47:24 HK: You know this is a true story, I cannot make this stuff up, it is like surreal, you know, how things happened back then and that was how it was and in fact my mother and– or when your grandmother, your grandmother here, how their parents, their parents were put together. In other– you would meet the man and you would meet the family and your grandmother, your great grandmother would walk along with them and in like the movie The Godfather and that was how it was in the old days. There was no going out and going here and going there in a long courtship, it was like one two three and that was it. Am I right honey? 48:17 VK: [Speaks Armenian] My grandmother, I said mom. 48:23 HK: That was a period– the fittest survived. 48:27 VK: Yeah, the fittest. Here was how I was [shows picture]. Grandma and mama on one side, dragging me in to the– 48:42 HK: Vicki, I am talking, I am talking before you. It was not just your grandmother’s family and mine, it was thousands of Armenians just like us, who struggled, came to America wanted to be Americans, not like some of the people who come here today, they wanted to be Americans, they wanted to dress like Americans, they wanted to learn the language, they proved to the people that were living here they were just as good or better. They overcame, it was not just the Armenians it was the Slovak people, it was the Italians, it was the Irish, it was the Jewish people. They struggled and they wanted to become somebody and become something and there were–and they did it, no matter how great the odds were, they did not quit. They did not–the word quit was not in their vocabulary. 49:42 VK: The first priority was becoming American, speaking the language, learning the language, it was. it was not easy, it was not easy. Different culture there, different type of food and everything else. Different religions and they came and built their own– 50:06 HK: And you know what I cannot understand everybody that came here, whether black, white or yellow they were discriminated, the Irish were discriminated, the Italians, the Armenians and this discrimination will never end. You might temporarily, but the problem here is people make a big issue out of being discriminated. Discrimination was going on way before, thousands of years before we were we born. And it will continue on no matter what, you cannot change people. There will always be discrimination to some degree. 50:51 JK: Exactly. That is crazy. So, when you were getting married, when you were looking for a wife, did your mom and father, did they want you to marry Armenian? 51:02 HK: Yes, they wanted me to marry Armenians but then there was a lot of stipulations. 51:11 VK: [whispers] She hated me. 51:11 HK: It was period where we were first– I was first generation, my wife first generation– were first born here and we were going through a period– it became to easier for my daughter and your father to get married later on because, the American tradition, the way you are suppose– the way things are done over here, we had a mix– it had a mixture between the other side and America. And there were, we were trying to pacify our parents and grandparents we were trying to blend it and make the best out of the both worlds. Your father and your aunt and your other aunt’s and other– your mother’s fa–brothers and sisters did not go through that because they were the next generation. But the first generation was a little difficult like you just could not go out and marry somebody that was not Armenian, that was looked upon down. 52:22 JK: Wow. So did you want to marry someone Armenian? 52:27 HK: Hm? 52:27 JK: Did you want to marry someone Armenian? 52:28 HK: Oh yes, I did because you see not marrying an Armenian, not marrying an Armenian you lose– you do not have– you do not understand the tradition and the hardship that both the families went through, you lose the language and you lose the language you lose the church and if you lose the church you lose your heritage as far as an Armenians concerned. The church and the heritage and the language as Armenian go hand in hand without that being blend all together, your future generation is going to be watered down and the grand children or the great grandchildren and the great, great grandchildren will not even know where they came from. 53:20 JK: Yeah. Exactly. When you– older– later on you had two children and did you want them to marry Armenians. Did you put pressure on them to– 53:29 HK: I would like to– 53:30 VK: No we did not put pressure on them but they knew– 53:22 HK: I would like that but the problem here is that there is different– there is different Armenians. See when my parents and your– my wife’s parents came here that was another group– that was another generation– that was a generation of Armenians that was really called the Armenians. They were true, true Armenians right from the heart, it came from the heart. The Armenians that come over here hand been Sovietized or Russianized or they been Muslimized. Not that their Muslims, not that their Russians but they have been influenced and they leave a bad taste with other Armenians and also with Americans that are live here. 53:34 VK: Sometimes they think that this country owes them when they come here, in other words, Harutun do not you get that? 54:46 HK: Yeah, see when the Armenians that came like your, your Kabakian side, for example, the churches were here, the schools were here, they went out– in other words during the Depression it was tough, the Armenians did not have the money, they did not have– did not know the language, did not know the ins and outs of government how things work over here and they struggled they built these churches and schools. The ones that came after World War II, hey this is it, it was not that way, it was hard work and they struggled the ones that were here. 55:33 JK: Yeah, they went through a lot. 55:35 HK: You understand what I am saying. 55:37 JK: Yeah, of course. 55:38 HK: I am not trying to put a knock on anybody but that is the way it was. That is how I see it and the ones that came after World War II, everything was always already in place for them. 55:50 JK: They did not have to work for it. 55:51 HK: They did not have to struggle, besides, there were no jobs during the depression, where were they going to get the money? You know how much I was bringing? I did not even want to go to church sometimes because I could only put a nickel in the plate. I wanted my mother and father to give me at least a quarter, they did not have a quarter to give me. 56:12 VK: But we were discriminated against too. 56:20 HK: You mean we were discriminated because we did not have any money? 56:23 VK: No, no, no. They did not know– my teacher did not know if we had money. 56:28 HK: That was a given fact, they did not know what Armenians were, they did not have an understanding of Armenians and a lot of people thought Armenians were like Arabs, they were nomads. That is a fact, in the school books and the library when I was– and I looked up Armenians and they had Armenians are Nomads, they were wanderers. 56:50 VK: They were wanderers because they wandered away from the genocide. Unbelievable, unbelievable. Yeah I heard they were Nomads. 57:03 HK: What? 57:04 VK: Nomads 57:05 HK: Right that is what I read, I remember this where I saw that, it was in the library at Daniel S. Dickinson the basement library. 57:18 JK: That is crazy. So did– how would you consider yourself, like what would define yourself as? Being– 57:24 HK: A true American Armenian, American first without America I was– I was– my family, my wife’s family and all the others Armenians that came here after the slaughter, after World War I, would not be nothing without America. I consider myself, an American first and Armenian second. 57:51 JK: What about you? 57:52 VK: I agree– 57:53 JK: Same thing– 57:54 HK: When I say American first, I would give my life for this country. 57:59 VK: Well you were flying during the war, thank goodness you came out of it. Jeepers! 58:11 HK: You find a person’s true colors and when I was flying in the Airforce, the really the true Americans were from the mid-west or from the south-west. They were so patriotic or from the south, the flyers you said anything derogatory about America, there was no such thing as burning an American flag. Not the stuff that goes on in New York City and California. It was unheard of back then, if you did that while I was in the service you would have got murdered, you would have got clobbered. 58:53 JK: Okay were he– 58:54 HK: I do not consider– I do not consider those people–some of those people in California and some in New York City as Americans. It is only giving lip service. 59:08 JK: So, when– now you have two children now right? 59:13 VK: Yeah, that is all we have [laughter] and grandchildren, five. [laughter] 59:21 JK: Oh I am sure one of them is amazing. [laughter] 59:23 VK: Oh, I am sure that she thinks she is. [laughter] 59:33 HK: You know, I saw when I was in the Service Jackie, I saw a lot of good Americans that died during the Korean War; a lot of good Americans. They gave their– they gave their lives up for this country and the garbage that goes on today with the flag– burning the flag and taken sports at taking a knee! [laughter] 1:00:00 JK: So, your two children can you name how– can you say their names and how old they are? 1:00:08 HK: I have a son, his name is Mark Kachadourian. He is fifty-eight and I have a daughter– 1:00:20 VK: What about their middle names? 1:00:21 HK: Well, Mark Henry. Mark Henry Kachadourian and let us see he is fifty-six–fifty-eight, yeah he is fifty-eight years old. And Corey is– Corey Victoria Kachadourian, my daughter she is fifty-nine. One was born in August one was born in September. 1:00:51 JK: Crazy! 1:00:52 HK: How old did you think your father was? 1:00:54 JK: I do not know [laughs], fifty-seven. 1:00:57 HK: Your father was born in fifty-nine. 1:01:00 JK: Yeah. Crazy! I was thinking fifty-six or fifty-seven. 1:01:07 VK: He is fifty-eight! 1:01:08 JK: Crazy! 1:01:09 HK: Huh? 1:01:10 JK: Crazy! How fast time goes by? 1:01:14 VK: Yeah, in the old days that was old, but now that is middle age, 1:01:19 HK: Well the problem– your mother, your grandmother and I– we were married in fifty-seven, Corey was born in fifty-eight and your father was born in fifty-nine. 1:01:20 VK: One right after the other, yeah. 1:01:37 JK: Wow! Okay, so did you want them– did you– growing up– did they grow up learn Armenian or go to Armenian school or church? 1:01:43 HK: There was no– we did not have regular Armenian Church. We only had a visiting priest that came once every month or once every two months and we did have Armenian school but it was very difficult since we were a small community and the only time they would meet would be on weekends. It was not like it was a large Armenian community where there would be regular functions and dances or social get together. We did not have any of that in this community because we were a small community and at the present time there would roughly only be between thirty or thirty-five–or thirty or thirty-five Armenian families in the area left. 1:02:28 JK: Okay. And most of them moved away to get more– 1:02:31 HK: The problem there they– most of them left the area because the fact that we lost our industry here and the politicians never understood what made this community. It was– IBM and Endicott-Johnson and the other industries came here because we had cheap energy. And that cheap energy came from the coal mines around Scranton and Wilkes Barre, it was less than a half an hour, an hour away. We had the cheapest energy in the world and without indus– without cheap energy, you do not have industry. 1:03:09 JK: Yeah. So did you guys–did they ever attend Armenian dances once in a while? 1:03:15 HK: No there were no Armenian dances here. [ indistinct] 1:03:21 HK: It was not– the Armenian dances did not take place until about– let us see– I would say– (19)50– go ahead– around the early part of (19)60s from when I was growing up, up until even when your father and your aunt were growing up in the area. From 1957 by fifteen– there was nothing we could– for fifteen year– in the Armenian functions– they did not– and fifty –fifteen or twenty years. 1:03:52 JK: Wow. 1:03:53 VK: Did not it go out of town 1:03:55 HK: What? 1:03:55 VK: When it was something going on in Atlantic City– 1:03:59 HK: Out of town but not here. Not locally. 1:04:01 JK: Did they go out of town– where would they go out of town? 1:04:05 HK: Basically, they went out of town to Armenian functions we went to Philadelphia or Atlantic City. 1:04:10 JK: And did you go ever so often–every year? Did you go every year? 1:04:15 HK: We tried to, I mean mostly in the summer months. 1:04:19 JK: Now, do they both know how to speak Armenian? 1:04:24 VK: Do they speak Armenian? 1:04:26 HK: Who is they? 1:04:27 VK: Corey and Mark. 1:04:28 HK: No. 1:04:30 VK: They understand– 1:04:31 HK: They understand– when they were– spent the summer home– at the summer house down in Toms River, New Jersey and they grew up there in the summer, they learned from their grand folks but they–they do have an understanding if someone is speaking Armenian they understand what they are saying. 1:04:49 JK: My dad said he knows how to– because sometimes he says something to my mom in Armenian. 1:04:56 HK: Yeah. 1:04:56 VK: Yeah he probably knows more than he is letting on. You know why– 1:05:04 HK: I wanted, I wanted very much to send you to Montreal and pay to go to Armenian school there with the Kabakians and the Liberians– they would have taught you Armenian but my son did not want you to leave the area. 1:05:22 JK: No I wish I did that that would have been amazing. 1:05:25 HK: It would have been a great summer– and I would have paid for it, it would have been a great summer and you would have become true Armenians. Not by just by name but you would understand the customs and the language. 1:05:39 JK: Yeah. There is so much more of an Armenian community in Montreal. 1:05:43 HK: Oh yeah. I am very–, I am– when I go to Montreal I am impressed. There– when you say Armenian community that is the true sense of the word up there. 1:05:54 JK: They even had a march on April 24th for the Armenian genocide to– 1:06:00 HK: Well your, your father, your grandparents, your– marched in the first march or– in United Nations and your aunt marched the first march of the genocide in the United Nations. I will never forget it. 1:06:19 JK: Really? 1:06:19 HK: It was a cold– 1:06:21 VK: New York City. 1:06:21 HK: Cold April day in New York City and the–the United Nations would not allow us to mark on–march on their side of the, the plaza– We had to cross the street and march across the street and we could not march on the grounds–the United Nations’ grounds. 1:06:42 JK: Wow 1:06:42 HK: And they– we and there– at that time there– I would say there was somewhere between fifty to seventy-five Armenians with signs marching and we did not have a sign, we marched along with them. Remember that, honey? Just to show our support. 1:06:58 JK: That is wonderful. 1:06:59 HK: We made that trip from Stanford, Connecticut on that cold, cold wintery day in, in April– in the springtime and wind was blowing off the ro– east river or the Hudson River even. It was just coming, you know, crisscross in Manhattan it was very dip– it was very hard times but the– it– we just made a show for– to show the world that the Armenians did not forget. 1:07:30 JK: Yeah. Do you think America will ever accept the Armenian genocide as an actual genocide? 1:07:37 VK: At this point, I do not think so. 1:07:41 HK: Hmm? 1:07:41 VK: Do you think America will ever accept the fact that the genocide existed? 1:07:53 HK: See I have– the two sides– the– to the story just like, like in Israel, America has a foreign policy and it has what has to be– and it protects the rights of people. It promotes freedom around the world, but the– they has to balance the one side with the other. It is a two sided– and it is very difficult to say–well– at this point I think they could– they should recognize it but if they– I am a firm believer if they recognize the genocide, this country, it will no longer be in place like it used to. The gov– the Turks and the United States government is doing the Armenians a favor by not recognize it because it is out on the forefront every year. 1:08:53 VK: That is right. It is– 1:08:54 HK: It is out on the forefront. In other words, we will go out there and make them have the risk of a government standby and say look these people were slaughtered and why do not you recognize it? But–and if, if they do recognize it, future generations will not go into the march, will not c– they will commemorate the date, but not like it is now. That is my personal feel. 1:09:23 JK: I agree with that. That is true. 1:09:25 VK: I do not think they are ever going to make any public announcement that this happened. 1:09:33 HK: See the trouble with this is, the presidents that want to get elected, like George Bush, Bill Clinton, Obama. They all promised the Armenians they would recognize the genocide and when they got in the office, what happened? 1:09:53 VK: They forgot all about it. [laughs] 1:09:57 HK: Obama’s speech before the parliament in Turkey says allege or so called, I will never forget the speech he made in Istan–in Ankara, Turkey. The allege massacre. Allege!! Why you– A man cannot stand behind his word. Obama broke his word and so did Bush and so did Bill Clinton. They all broke their word. 1:10:29 JK: They did. 1:10:30 HK: If a man’s word is no good, the man is no good. 1:10:33 JK: They did us a favor, it will never– 1:10:37 HK: Allege! I will never forget what the– Obama said it in front of the parliament, the speech was– you–there–h ad it on the news. The allege massacre! 1:10:50 JK: Terrible. 1:10:51 HK: How about I, I said the allege slavery in America? 1:10:59 VK: [laughs] That is a good one! [laughs] 1:11:03 JK: Crazy. [laughs] 1:11:04 HK: How would Obama like that? Massacre. Really?! The allege massacre? 1:11:11 VK: What about the allege slavery of the blacks and– Pause in recording 1:11:15 JK: Is there anything you want to add about the Armenians or your history or anything? 1:11:22 HK: Yes. The only thing I could say is in my wife and I– in our lifetime– our parents were slaughtered in World War– our grandparents and our parents and their families were slaughtered in World War I and my wife and I, in our lifetime, we have seen nothing but war. We have seen World War I, we have seen the Spanish Civil War in Spain in the thirties. Then we saw World War II, then we saw Korea and then we saw Vietnam and then we saw the war in Iraq and then we saw the war in Afghanistan and now the war in Iraq and the problems in the Middle East. Only thing I only wish for– the remainder of my life there are no wars, hopefully, and from– not only for myself but for future generations over my children and my grandchildren and great grandchildren. That was how I will end it. You want to add anything to that Vicky? 1:12:39 VK: No you said it– 1:12:40 HK: And I hope, I hope, that we can live in peace for at least a period of twenty-five to fifty years. 1:12:40 JK: Wow. Nice. Okay thank you so much. 1:12:53 HK: Hum? 1:12:53 JK: Thank you. 1:12:54 HK: How did I do? 1:12:56 JK: Pretty good. 1:12:57 HK: Oh I do not think so. 1:12:58 VK: Did you read what Mark wrote? 1:13:00 HK: Yeah 1:13:00 VK: I mean he is–– (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Henry Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f55ad5a375fdf5291728a532407fa941.mp3 d0cf314e49ad9727e3d3e52cd427d34f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 9/29/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Aristaks Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Aristaks Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 29 September 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:08 JK: This is Jacqueline Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s Special Collections library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is September 29, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:21 AK: Aristaks Kachadourian. 0:24 JK: And where were you born? 0:27 AK: Johnson City, New York. 0:30 JK: And– 0:31 AK: –December 12, 1932. 0:34 JK: And who were your parents? 0:39 AK: Um, Alice and Parsec Kachadourian. 0:45 JK: And where were they born? 0:50 AK: In Harput, Turkey. My father was born in the s–village of Aşvan my mother was born in the village of ̶ 1:06 JK: And, um, why did they imi– did– they immigrated to the United States, correct? 1:14 AK: Not directly. My father came by way of Ellis Island and my mother came by way of Canada. 1:25 JK: And– 1:29 AK: –Um and she came to the United States, um, from Canada, with her brother. 1:42 JK: And did they meet in the villages in Harper or they met? 1:49 AK: No, no. They met in Massachusetts. [indistinct] Right. Now my mother and father met in Massachusetts, in Providence, Rhode Island. 2:06 JK: Okay. And so what was the reasoning for emigrating to–what was their reasoning to come to the United States? 2:14 AK: I think primarily to, um, avoid the massacres that were occurring in, um, central Turkey. 2:31 JK: Now, were they directly associated with the massacres? Did it happen during their time– 2:36 AK: –No, but they had heard about–my father essentially, um, avoided being rounded up by the Turks in the village and he was able to escape, um, from the village by, uh, jumping into the water and swimming for his freedom. My mother, um, came by way of, um, Turkey to Lebanon where she met her uncle and she was able to save up enough money and afford passage to Marseilles, France and from Marseilles she went to Canada. 3:37 JK: And do you remember what time frame or year? 3:39 AK: Time frame was somewhere around 1927, 1927. 3:47 JK: Okay and, um, when your father was escaping the Turkish shoulder– soldiers, um, did they leave behind any family, uh, to escape, or–? Do you know of any stories? 4:06 AK: I really do not know the other circumstances by which he came over but the thing which attracted him to Binghamton, New York. He was staying in Worcester, Massachusetts with relatives. And from there he, um, came to visit his cousin in Binghamton and decided to stay after he was able to obtain a job working at the Endicot, Endicott Johnson shoe Corporation. That was what made him emigrate to the Binghamton area. 4:53 JK: And, um, while they, while your parents lived in the villages in Turkey, did they speak, what languages did they speak? 5:00 AK: They spoke Turkish and Armenian. 5:02 JK: Okay. And did that pass along to you and your siblings? 5:06 AK: Not the Turkish, although my Armenian is mixed with a lot of Turkish words. Um, I did not know the difference between the two. Neither did my brothers and sisters. Some words the– my parents would use, uh, that were Turkish, and I thought they were Armenian, but how was I to differentiate between the two? 5:35 JK: Um, do you recall any stories that your parents told about living in the villages? 5:40 AK: Oh, yeah, my mother, uh, the last she saw of her mother was, uh, when she was a child, she remembers being, uh, placed in a Protestant orphanage home and the last she saw of her mother was running down the street I assumed from the Turk– Turkish, uh, soldiers or police. And that was the last time she saw her mother. Her mother never came back to the orphanage to pick her up. She was about eleven, twelve years old. 6:21 JK: So, she was all by herself? 6:23 AK: She was by herself. 6:25 JK: Did she have any brothers or sisters? 6:29 AK: No. The only brother she had was the one that was being carried, uh, by her mother while she was running from the Turkish authorities. Her brother somehow came to the United States. She had one brother that I know that was living in, um, in Lowell, Massachusetts, and he, she had a father that had emigrated to the United States in nineteen ten. And he died of tuberculosis in the United States. Uh, in Lowell, Massachusetts. I know that he is buried there with my uncle, my mother's brother who came to Canada. I do not know if he was in contact with his father, who passed away with tuberculosis. But that is the only thing that I can remember. My uncle had a job. I think it was in the shoe factories in Lowell, Massachusetts. And he learned of my mother coming from Marcy, France to, um, Canada and he went to Canada and brought her. I do not know whether it was in Toronto that he went and got her or Montreal, I am not sure. I think it was Toronto. That, and this was about 1926, 1927. 8:21 JK: And so her brother came to America first, before she did? 8:24 AK: Yes, her father came first. Then her brother came here. The father had come here first to earn enough money to bring his family from Turkey to the United States. But she got the money that he sent to her to, um, come to the United States, but instead she used the money to buy a farm [laughs] and that is about all I know about it. 8:58 JK: And the farm was located in, uh, Turkey or America? 9:01 AK: No, that was, what was that? 9:06 JK: Was the farm located where? In Turkey or–? 9:10 AK: No, she did not bother to buy the farm. This was in the village of ̶ 9:14 JK: Okay. 9:15 AK: In Turkey. 9:15 JK: Okay. 9:16 AK: That she was supposed to use the money. 9:19 JK: And so her father left before the genocide occurred 9:23 AK: Oh yes, he came about–he came about 1910. There was another genocide back in 1909 that, in fact those three genocides one in 1896, one 1909, in fact, the one in 1996, I mean 1896 was when my wife Adrian, her father came over as a child at three at the age of three around 1896. That was the first genocide. The second genocide was in 8– 1909. And that was when, uh, my mother's father emigrated to the United States to earn money to pay for bringing his family over. But her mother never bought the, bought the–uh, used the money to come to the United States, she bought a farm instead. 10:32 JK: And the two other gen–the two other genocides that–genocides that occurred beforehand, um, your fa ̶ your mother survived both of them? 10:41 AK: No, my mother, my mother survived the 1896 one. Uh, she was old, she was not born in when the genocide of 1909. But that was when her father came to the United States. In (19)– I am sorry 1909, he came to the United States. She did not come until much later around 1915 or 1916. 11:13 JK: And you remember what year she, do you remember what year she was born in? 11:18 AK: She was born in 19 ̶ give me a second– to the United States around 1915, 1916. She was born in 1909, 1904. 11:46 JK: Okay. 11:48 AK: Gee I should have to go look at the tombstone. 11:53 JK: And, um, for the past two genocides 9– 1896 and 1909, that was with Armenia and Turkey– and Turkey? 12:02 AK: Yes, that was between the Armenians and the Turks. 12:07 JK: Okay. And, um, it was, I am assuming it was with the villages in Turkey? 12:12 AK: –Yeah. 12:13 JK: –That they started in. 12:14 AK: Yeah. Yeah. It was in the–the state or province of ̶ and no, in, um, in Harput, Harput. Harput was the name of the province. 12:37 JK: Okay. And, um, was there mass killings in– during those massacres or–? 12:43 AK: There probably was, but that was much later. 12:48 JK: Okay. And, and for your father, did you experience any of these, uh, other two genoc– or other two massacres? 12:55 AK: He was a young boy at the time he was about twelve, thirteen years old. He was born around 1900. 13:06 JK: Okay. 13:06 AK: So he would have been about (19)14, (19)15 fifteen when that took place. 13:11 JK: And– 13:12 AK: –Brought him to Binghamton, of course, so his– he was able to get a job here at the Endicott Johnson shoe factory. And that was what– he was living with my cousin. 13:26 JK: And, uh, do you recall any stories about him living in Harput? Do you recall any sto– do you remember him telling you stories– 13:34 AK: –Any stories at Harput? Not really. I have forgotten a lot of them I would have to think about it. Some of the time when I can rehash some of these stories. 13:49 JK: Of course. Um, do you remember the escape, how he escaped? 13:58 AK: Here, the only– he, um, ran from the village with his older brother, but he remembers the story that his brother was captured. And he survived the, the, um, arrests that were going on in the village, and he remembers that his brother escaped by jumping in the river and he was wounded with a shot in the side of his head. But he was able to swim in the river and get away, escape. His, uh, brother escaped to France and remained there and yeah he never came to the United States. But he has a–his name was Minas Kachadourian and his family settled in Marcy, France and ultimately in Leone, Leone, Leone, um, France. 15:17 JK: And they leave any other family members back in, uh, the village of Harput or–? 15:23 AK: The only one I know about was my father's brother in– that, uh, escaped with him to France. My bir–my father ultimately wanted to come to the United States, his brother stayed in France. 15:45 JK: Now growing up, did your parents talk about what occurred in Turkey? 15:51 AK: They did not talk very much about the–the massacres only that they would mention them but they would not relay any definite stories because they were such sad stories that they tried to suppress the thoughts of these episodes. 16:18 JK: Okay, going back to the life in Binghamton, um, do you have any siblings growing up? 16:27 AK: Yes, I have, uh, four siblings. My sister Louise, um, Henry, Arslan, Garabed. 16:46 JK: And, um, growing up did, uh, your parents speak Armenian to you in the household? 16:54 AK: They spoke Armenian and bro– broken English. What–what they learned by their communication with people in the community, but mostly they spoke Armenian to us. 17:10 JK: And, uh, when–when they came to the United States, your parents, did–they did not know English, I assume, right? 17:16 AK: No, they did not have any English at all. They learned gradually by their contact with the American population. 17:26 JK: And from your stance, they want to keep the Armenian culture and your family strong? 17:34 AK: Oh, yes. We have an Armenian Church, which was acquired in 1927. But let us see my parents were married in 1927. They met in maybe 1925, 1926. And, uh, my father, when visiting– the way they had met was my father, when, uh, visiting to Massachusetts, I guess he was looking to marry an Armenian woman there. But he met my mother instead. And I think this way the story was but the Armenian woman did not want to marry, marry my father. He wanted, so that he had purchased a ring to get engaged with and, and he let us see. And she did not want him so he went looking for another woman and met my mother and she essentially, uh, wanted to get married and ended up meeting my father and he brought her back to Binghamton and got married in Binghamton at the Trinity Memorial Church in Binghamton which is located on the corner of Main and Oak Street. 19:22 JK: And the reasoning that they stayed in Binghamton is because your father had a job– 19:28 AK: Had a job here, and they were living on Colfax Avenue with my, uh, cousin. And they were living on the third floor of my cousin's home. 19:45 JK: And do you recall in Lowell, Massachusetts, did they have a big Armenian community from the– 19:51 AK: In Massachusetts. Oh, yes, there is a large Armenian community. The first Armenian Church in the United States is located in Worcester, Massachusetts. And then subsequently parishes were formed or built, uh, in Providence Boston, Worcester. The largest community at the time, I think was in Worcester, Massachusetts. But then they began to spread all over the northeastern United States. 20:29 JK: And in Binghamton, New York, where you grew up in, um, was there a large Armenian community? No it was small but it, it grew. The community gradually increased with the advent of Armenians being able to work in the shoe corporations in Binghamton. There were many shoe, uh, factories, uh, Endicott Johnson being the largest on the west side of Binghamton. Uh, Dunn McCarthy's, uh, on the south side was Gotham shoe factories so that Armenians on the south side began to live on the south side because they worked at the shoe factory on the west side of Binghamton, and the second and third wards and fourth wards and Binghamton. Uh, most of the Armenians work that the Dunn McCarthy shoe factory. 21:35 JK: Okay. And, um, from this area, did you have a– so were the Armenians living close by from one another? 21:44 AK: Oh yes, they all lived, all the Armenians lives within walking distance from each other. The– there was a large group of Armenians who lived in the first ward, second ward and third ward. And most of them went to the Protestant churches here because there was no Armenian Church in, at that time and the Armenian Church was not, uh, purchased–it was purchased from the Ross Memorial Church, Ross Memorial, um, Episcopal Church on the south side. My Armenians on the south side went to that church. On the west side, some of them went to the congregation church on the corner of, um, Main and Front Street. But, and also a large number on the, uh, west side went to the Main Street Baptist Church on the corner of Main and Chestnut Street. This is where the churches are still located. 23:00 JK: And, um, so you are–and when you were growing up as a child, you went to the Armenian Church? 23:08 AK: Well– 23:09 JK: –When it was– 23:09 AK: –Whenever they had service, whenever they could get a priest to visit the Armenian Church, um, which was about four or five times a year was when the, uh, parish council were able to get a priest to come up and perform service and baptize some of the children. 23:33 JK: So you guys did not have priests for regular service? 23:37 AK: We did not have a regular service, but we had a priest sent to us by the diocese. In fact, we, my brother and I, Arslan and I, um, were not baptized until we were about eleven, twelve years old 23:57 JK: Oh okay. And, um, so growing up, did you attend church every time there was a service? 24:05 AK: When, whatever there was a service here, yes. 24:08 JK: And– 24:09 AK: My cous– I remember my cousin, uh, picking us up and driving us to the church, because we did not have a car at the time. 24:21 JK: And, um, for the services, they were once every few months, or–? 24:28 AK: I would say about once every three, three–four months was when we had sort of church service. Transportation was difficult at that time. We used to see the priests coming, I believe, from New York City. And at that time, it took about six to seven hours, by car or by, uh, train, however they came. 24:58 JK: And once the church was built, um, do you think the Armenian community grew stronger in Binghamton? 25:06 AK: Yes, the community became closer together because that was the one, one and only time every two to three or four months, that they would get together and have a dinner after a church service so that they could prolong the time of contact together. But they became stronger as the children also grew in the area and attended the schools. The number of children, uh, multiplied tremendously. 25:44 JK: And, um, going to school, did you have Armenian friends or normal American– 25:52 AK: We would develop a friendship. We would know each other, uh, ultimately, by going to school and knowing them in school as well as seeing them, you know, every three or four months. 26:11 JK: Now, did you guys have any other events within the Armenian community? 26:19 AK: No, just, um, after church dinners. We used to have a picnic, an annual picnic, where everybody got together, uh, whenever there was a wedding or, or a social or baptism, something like that, they would bring the community together in these social functions. 26:43 JK: Do you think most of the families, uh, during that time have left Binghamton or stayed? 26:51 AK: No, they, they, uh, decided to stay here because work was, uh, here. That is the reason why they stayed. Plus the children began to go to school here. And they attached a, a reason for wanting to live here because they knew or had nowhere else to go. We did not have a car to go traveling anywhere. So we were pretty much set–like many of the Armenians were– they just maybe had one family car that they could afford. And it took an awful long time to travel from one city to another. Uh, traveling to Massachusetts used to take as much as five or six hours. 27:48 JK: Um, now going to school did you–was there an Armenian school that you could attend here or–? 27:53 AK: There were– there, there were Armenian schools set up. Uh, Louise, my older sister, um, ended up going to Armenian school. She learned to read and write it as well. But, uh, we did not my other siblings never had the opportunity to go to an Armenian school, uh, when we were, uh, younger, but, um, my, uh, when we have subsequently developed a priest coming here more frequently, we have had schools I will get into that much later. But, uh, when we had a full time priest for a period of time, we would have Armenian classes, um– 28:52 JK: And did that include Bible school or Sunday school or– 28:56 AK: We used to have Sunday schools. I mean, this is back, uh, much later, after I came back to Binghamton, uh, from medical school and my residency, we used to have a Armenian Sunday school, but we used to have church services more frequently. 29:21 JK: And, uh, when you were growing up in high school and, uh, secondary school, did you associate yourself with the other Armenians in the community or–? 29:33 AK: No not really, more became assimilated with everybody, but we knew each other. We knew each other but we happen to be, uh, in classes with other Armenian students. And, uh, but that was after, uh, well, for example, the high school in the first ward, uh, which was Daniel Dickinson. It does not exist [indistinct] there used to at least be one or two Armenians in, uh, our class that we knew, um, but that was because we knew each other from, uh, playing in the playgrounds before we went to school. We used to play in the, um, field on Jarvis street with other Armenians, but we play with a lot of, uh, Slavic children. Uh, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, we, um, had a close association with, with, um, them as we grow up, you know, from the age of five to the age of fifteen, uh, we played with each other, there were always some Armenians that we played with in the community. 31:06 JK: So, um, after, uh, school you went on to college. And, um, what school did you attend, after– 31:17 AK: What’s that? 31:18 JK: What University did you attend after? 31:21 AK: Well, I graduated from Binghamton Central High School. It was Binghamton Central High School at the time. It is now Binghamton High School. I went to, um, Syracuse University and graduated from Syracuse around 1955, (19)56 and I graduated from med–the medical school at Syracuse, which was the State University of New York College of Medicine. And then I went from there to New York City. Af–after spending eight years in Syracuse, I went to New York City to do my internship and a surgical residency in general surgery and my, um, Vascular Surgery at, um, Mount Sinai in New York City. I came to Binghamton in 1966 and went into a practice of surgery with Dr. Bowman and Dr. Peters. And I have been practicing ever since. 32:43 JK: And– 32:44 AK: –Since 1966, my partners have passed away. 32:50 JK: You are the only one left. 32:52 AK: I am the last. 32:54 JK: And what was your reasoning after traveling to Syracuse and New York City, uh, coming back to Binghamton, did you want to come back because your family or–? 33:03 AK: I was coming, I was coming back to my hometown. I practiced, um, for about two years. And I got drafted at the height of the Vietnam War. I ended up spending two years in the Army. 33:22 JK: And– 33:23 AK: –And, and after that, I came back to Binghamton– 33:27 JK: To practice, uh– 33:28 AK: To practice general and vascular surgery. 33:33 JK: And, uh, whilst you are in–when you were in Syracuse and New York City, was there a stronger Armenian community? 33:42 AK: Yes, I ultimately got married in nineteen–in nineteen sixty, and, uh, in fact that met my wife in 1960. We got married in 1960 and finished medical school at the same time. I went to, um, New York City and we used to go to the Armenian Church in Queens. We lived in– my wife and I lived in, um, Brooklyn at the time, and we went to the Armenian Church in Bayside, New York. And then I went into my residency of surgery. We lived in Jersey City and we went whenever I could get away from the hospital and get free we went to the Armenian Church in Union City, uh, New York, I am sorry New Jersey and, uh, lived there until we came to Binghamton. 35:00 JK: Uh, going back to when you were growing up with your family in Binghamton. Um, did you see Armenian, uh, presence in your family life? Or did you see more Americanized? 35:15 AK: No Armenians did not really have a opportunity to socialize, because there was no, uh, common activity that would bring them together like a church service–whenever they have church service. So the Armenians did not socialize that much they did not, um, they did not get together too frequently because there was not a good meeting place. There was an Armenian club on Jarvis Street. Uh, but I was too young to ever go there. My dad used to go there. There used to be an Armenian club on Jarvis Street, which was located near Main Street on Jarvis Street. Then there was another Armenian club on Main Street, which was near–the landmarks are now all gone. Um, there used to be a theater–the Jarvis Theater, which was located just about fifty yards from the, um, Clark Street and on Main Street, the–the Jarvis theater is gone. The furniture store is gone. The A&P across the street is all gone. But there was an army in club there and that was in existence even when I was up to the age of, uh, eighteen. And then that gradually fell apart as people begin to pass away, the old timers just did not keep it up. 37:15 JK: And what– do you recall what you are even though you were young, do you recall what they did at Armenian clubs? What kind of events? What–what did they do at the Armenian clubs? Just hang out or? 37:27 AK: No, no, the Armenian kids did not really– Armenian children did not really get together to play with each other maybe there was only one family that I remember the Avedisians, Avedisians, um, who lived on Jarvis street when we lived on the corner of Main of Clinton Street and, um, Jarvis street. It was probably the only Armenians that we played with, the Avedisians they were–Antony Avedisian, uh, Archie Avedisians and Michael Avedisians. Michael became an officer in the United States Army, then became a lawyer and practiced out in Paducah, Kentucky. Andy Avedisian, his younger brother became a lawyer. I know, I remember he went to NYU law school in New York. And Archie worked for the boys club. My brothers, my brothers are all self-employed. Go ahead. 38:51 JK: And, um, you are saying about the Armenian clubs, clubs that they had during that time. What did they do at the Armenian clubs? 39:00 AK: I never went to them because I was too young to go. 39:04 JK: Yeah did you hear any stories or anything or–? None. 39:07 AK: No. No, my dad did not, he just– all he did there was play cards [laughs]. That is all I can remember. 39:19 JK: And, um, going back to, uh, meeting your wife, did you want to marry an Armenian or did your parents? [cellphone rings] 39:31 AK: Yes. But I was not going to marry her while I was still in college or I was in medical school but in my very last year in medical school is when I met my wife at an Armenian dance that I was going to. I was in between clerkships in medical school. So I was free that weekend, and a group from Syracuse an Armenian group from Syracuse, um, decided they want to go to the Armenian dance in Springfield, Massachusetts. And I was going with a girl from Springfield, Massachusetts at the time. So, I joined them in going to the Armenian dance in, uh, Springfield, Massachusetts. And that is where I am instead of paying attention to the girl that I was going with, I met my wife, Adrian at the dance and decided to marry her. And while I was in Syracuse, I did become associated with the, uh, Armenian club, in– of you– young people in, uh, Syracuse and, uh, became affiliated with the Armenian Church in Syracuse, which ultimately purchased a Protestant Church and converted it to an Armenian Church. And I was very active with the Armenian youth in Syracuse while I was there in Syracuse for eight years. I was four years at the university and four years at the Medical School. So, I spent a great deal of time with a close friends that I developed in the Armenian community who were initially going to the university. 41:50 JK: Was– 41:50 AK: –And maintained that friendship. Even coming back to Binghamton. I have still had a close association with the Armenian peers my age at that time we have grown together as a community. 42:12 JK: And before they bought, bought the Protestant church was there another Armenian Church that you attended? While at– 42:18 AK: No there was no Armenian Church, they were using a, a, um, a, uh, meeting club that belong to a, um, a Protestant organization or there may have been a small compound that was used by the, by the, um, young people in, uh, in Syracuse. But they had a rented a Protestant facility, uh, in Syracuse and used to have their church service whenever they could get a priest come to the– come to the, um, community. I am going to get a drink of water. 43:18 JK: So, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian? Or was it your decision or–? 43:22 AK: No, I just never thought of marrying anybody but an Armenian. Since I had a close relationship with my parents, I just never put the idea or thought in my mind, because I was, number one, in school, in college. I never thought about wanting to get married before I finished college. Number two, uh, I did not think about wanting to get married even while I was in medical school. So the topic never came up or the thought never came up even to mention it to my parents. I met an awful lot of girls. It was just that, the desire to wanting [coughs] the desire to want to get married while I was in college and medical school until I was– reached the age of twenty-six. Then I started looking. 44:28 JK: And, um, what was the–so when you wanted to get married, it was only, you only focused on Armenians. 44:36 AK: I met a lot of Armenian girls, but I was not interested because I was still in medical school. But then when I was in my senior year, I thought this was a perfect opportunity to want to get married. So I started looking, but not really seriously but, and I did not meet Adrian until I was in my last six months of medical school. 45:13 JK: And, um, going to more generalized ideas about Armenian, uh, culture–what do you think makes you most Armenian? 45:24 AK: I think I am, I have always had a, a interest in [indistinct] a interest in the Armenian community, the Armenian Church, even though I had limited exposure to it. Because even in my serious years of education, which was between eighteen and twenty-six that I, that I thought, being more serious about it because of the history of the Armenian Church, uh, and what little I had learned about it without any formal education. 46:20 JK: And what does it mean for you to be an Armenian? What does it mean for you to be an Armenian? 46:28 AK: It means for me to be proud to be an Armenian. The fact that I am, uh, interested in as much as the history of the Armenian, Armenians– the history, the Armenian Church makes me feel that I am proud of my, um, not only my community, but the Armenian folkways its mores are all a–as rich as any other, other racial denomination. As a result of that, uh, desire of being proud of the fact that it is a, a history that if, every time I get an opportunity to read about the Armenian Church, the Armenian history, the Armenian Church and how intricate the Armenian Church has become to the history of Armenia itself. It has suffered many hardships, many massacres over the years that, um, it has survived, but the Armenian Church has still survived, in spite of all these, uh, tortures, genocide, massacres, that the church and the community and the people have still survived. 48:19 JK: And, um. 48:26 AK: He is probably asleep. [laughs] 48:30 JK: Uh, and how would you define yourself, uh, right now? Would you, would you– 48:35 AK: Demi– define myself in the Armenian– 48:41 JK: Uh would you be American-Armenian, Armenian-American or one hundred percent Armenian or–? 48:46 AK: Well, I would like to be a good Armenian-American– as proud as other ethnic groups are proud of their background whether they are, you are Irish, Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, these other religions and these other groups of people are as proud of their, uh, ethnic background as the Jewish people are, for example. They are proud of their historical background. I am very proud and put mine equal to them and equally strong as they are toward their religion and their faith that I am closely, I have a close feeling, deep feeling for my own ethnic background. 49:51 JK: And have you ever visited or went back to the villages or Armenia? 49:56 AK: I have been to Armenia twice and I have enjoyed the–both occasions, the first time I was able to go there with my parents. The last time I have been to Armenia, um, that I feel a, a sense of wellbeing in the Armenian nation itself, the very earth that my parents, and the reason I am so, um, so proud of it. I am, I am proud of the fact that, number one, that in spite of the, um, the, uh, the fact that the Armenia, Armenia up until 1991, was occupied by the Soviet Union. It was Soviet socialist Republic. But now Armenia is an independent nation. One can divide– devise it is, uh, exact location in the fact that it is between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. It was occupied by the northeast corner of Turkey, the southern border of the Republic of Georgia. Uh, it is, uh, north of Iran. It is even though it is a very small country, it was a– the smallest of all the Soviet Socialist Republics. But I was proud being there with its people, three million people. The capital is Yerevan, the capital city was as modern as populated. It is a city of one million people. Just traveling to various historical places in Armenia was very proud and made me proud of just being there. I would like to go again, if my health permits. And, uh, everybody that I went with over there, would like to go back again? I mean, that is how strongly they feel, they felt about the being proud of the fact that they were Armenian. And even those, those who married into the Armenian, uh, faith as a result of, um, marriage are also enthusiastic about wanting to go back again. I will think about it [laughs]. 53:01 JK: Of course. Um, and do you think you can remain Ar– Armenian without the language or the church or the homeland? 53:09 AK: Many people, many Armenians who, uh, grew up Armenian may not have a file, a strong ability to speak the language, but they still want to remain or be Armenians. It helps a bit to be able to speak the language even more to be able to read it. I do not read it as well. I try to speak it the best I can. 53:46 JK: And what about the church? 53:48 AK: The church I feel very strongly about supporting the church, being a part of the church, going to the church as often as they have a, uh, religious service, if they had a church service, every Sunday, I would go to church every Sunday. At the present time, we have a visiting priest who comes to Binghamton, uh, twice a month, but I go to church or twice a month, because there is a service. And it gives a perfect opportunity to be together with people. And the closeness and bond is still there. 54:36 JK: And what about the homeland? 54:39 AK: I am st– I strongly support the home– homeland. As I said, I have only had the opportunity to go there twice. And I have enjoyed it. And I would love to go to back again. 54:53 JK: And did you ever visit the villages? 54:56 AK: Yes. 54:55 JK: Of your parents where they grew up? 54:57 AK: Oh no, no, those were in Turkey 55:00 JK: Okay. 55:01 AK: No, I, just, I would not want to go to Turkey. But I would want to go back to Armenia, because I feel that closeness, that adherence to the church, the people, their government. Very interesting that they have a democratic government in Armenia, and they are still in the midst of a upheaval around them. By that I made the Kurdish population in Turkey, want to become independent of Turkey. That is going to be an interesting problem. 55:46 JK: All right. I think that– 55:48 AK: Hope Arme–Armenia just does not get involved in that. But it is fortunate that the Armenian nation as it borders Turkey is protected by Russia–by the Russian government, the Russian, um, border guards the Armenian border guards are Russian that essentially tells Turkey that they are protecting them. 56:23 JK: And one last thing, what do you–what are your thoughts on, uh, America not supporting the Armenian genocide or not calling it Armenian– 56:33 AK: You mean our– America supporting Armenia? 56:35 JK: Or, uh, not recognizing that it is a genocide. 56:40 AK: That is a political thing. Political– I mean, we were promised that by presidents that they were going to do it, Bush, President Bush promised he was going to do it when he became president Obama promised he was going to recognize the Armenian Genocide but the Turkish Government has a very strong presence in Washington. But one of these days, they will have reco– they will recognize it, because many other countries have. In fact, in France, it is against the law to deny that the Armenian Genocide occurred. 57:21 JK: Is there anything else that you would like to add on this interview? 57:26 AK: No, I– get another opportunity where I can think more fully. I would love to have another conversation. 57:36 JK: Of course. Well, thank you so much. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Dr. Aristaks Kachadourian (1933-2019) was a general surgeon. Born in Binghamton, N.Y., to Armenian Genocide survivors, Dr. Kachadourian received  his Bachelor's of Science degree in Chemistry from Syracuse University and his medical degree from  the State University of New York College of Medicine in Syracuse, NY. He is survived by his wife and five daughters.  Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Aristaks Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9fc25066ab7beb78bd3983dee579d84e.mp3 9129aab24e9b82a3ced45907bc9143ca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 10/27/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Annie Kabakian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 34:31 Biographical Text Annie Kabakian (1955-2020) was the granddaughter of two genocide survivors who immigrated from Turkey to Lebanon in the early 1900s. Annie was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. Later on, she moved to Montreal, Canada.  She is survived by her husband and her four children. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Annie Kabakian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 27 October 2017 Interview Setting: Phone interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 JK: My name is Jackie Kachadourian; I am interviewing, uh, Annie Kabakian for Binghamton University’s Armenian Oral History Project. Today is October 27, 2017. Um, can you start out with your name and birthplace please? 0:20 AK: My name is Annie Kabakian and I was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:26 JK: And, um, what was the ethnicity of your parents? 0:30 AK: My parents were both from, uh, they were Armenian and they were born in, Lebanon also. But their uh, grand– I mean my grandparents were not born in Lebanon, they were born in Armenia. 0:46 JK: Uh, and do you know where in Armenia they were born? 0:50 AK: Well, they were born in, uh, ancient Armenia. One was from Antep, one was from Bursa. My mother was from Bursa. Now it is under, uh, uh, Turkish government. 1:10 JK: And, um, what were your– what were the circumstances that your family had to leave Armenia? 1:17 AK: Oh, they had to leave, uh, their, uh, their, uh, grandparents, I guess they had to leave because of the genocide in 1915 and then they went to other parts wherever they were received, they stayed there and, uh, slowly they migrated toward Lebanon. 1:39 JK: And what– 1:40 AK: –Over the years. 1:41 JK: And what were your pa– parent’s names? 1:44 AK: My father’s name was, um, Mihran Kabakian and my mother’s name was Meline Kashukchian. 1:53 JK: And where were they born in Lebanon? 1:56 AK: They were born in Beirut. 1:58 JK: Both of them? 2:00 AK: Both of them. I guess my father, uh, was born maybe in Aleppo, Syria and, uh, maybe at the age of two I believe, uh, they came, uh, to Lebanon. So– 2:15 JK:–And– 2:16 AK:–I guess that well maybe, uh, some sibling were born in Lebanon. 2:23 JK: And were both of your grandparents, uh, so both of your grandparents are from Armenia, on both sides– 2:30 AK: Yes. 2:31 JK: Do you, do you recall any stories or any information about that– when they lived there? 2:39 AK: Stories? Uh, no they were, uh, living, uh, like they were– it is about the genocide everything disturbed one under the Ott– the Ottoman Empire decided to, uh, move the Armenians from Armenia and, uh, um, and they started the genocide in 1915 and, uh, some of them, uh, they were fleeing the country–They were lucky they did not get killed on the road. Most of them got killed on the road also so my ancestors, some of them, they made it, uh, to other countries, the neighborhoods and, uh, they slowly came down to Lebanon, which was a Christian country. 3:32 JK: Do you, uh, remember how they escaped or, uh, what they did in Armenia? When they did live there. 3:44 AK: Uh, they escaped because some of the neighbors, they would hide them and help them to escape, that is how they survived. Or when they had good neighbors, uh, but they helped them, uh, you know in the beginning they were letting them flee the country because they wanted the land and everything out, uh, the wells and everything. But, uh, some of them as I said, they were lucky to flee the country but some of them got noted and massacred down the way. And they never made anywhere, so. 4:27 JK: And who were these, uh, were the neighbors Armenian or Turkish, or– 4:33 AK: No, no, uh, neighbors were– I was saying, uh, the neighbor who was like, uh, some, uh, neighbors who knew, uh, people would help them to flee. Some of them were Turk, yes, and they would know people to help them to flee. That is all I can remember my parents would tell us. Otherwise, they would have been massacred, too. Because they were coming door to door– the soldiers– to look for Armenians and that is how I guess some of them, uh, stayed alive. 5:13 JK: Do you know– do you remember when your grandparents, uh, left Armenia, how old they were, or no? 5:19 AK: No, no, no. No, I do not– I do not remember. 5:25 JK: Did your parents ever go back to Armenia? 5:28 AK: No, no. Because after it fell under the Russian, uh, became a part of Russia and we– all the land and the houses were confiscated so they had nowhere to go. And all the relatives were either, uh, massacred or had left the country so there was no reason for them, uh, they could not go back because, uh, as I said they left with nothing. So, everything they had was confiscated. 6:06 JK: And– 6:07 AK: –Oh, they continued life and they worked in, uh, wherever they made it until they reach Lebanon. 6:15 JK: And, uh, were you, you grew up in Lebanon, correct? 6:19 AK: Yes, and my father, uh I grew up in Lebanon. My father, um, was studying in school. He got a sponsorship to go and study in Wyoming and, uh, he became a chemical engineer, and, uh, then he came back to Beirut, Lebanon to take care of his family and, uh, he founded the first, uh, textile printing, I believe in the Middle East and, uh, that is, yeah. 6:58 JK: And, uh, growing up did you attend Armenian school in Lebanon, or– 7:06 AK: Yes, I, uh, attended uh the very famous Armenian, uh, Hamazkayin Djemaran in Beirut in Beirut. Which became an institution, uh, for Armenians to learn about, uh, the language and, uh the culture for foreigners. 7:28 JK: Was there a lot of Armenians where you lived in Beirut? 7:32 AK: Yes. We, we lived in an Armenian neighborhood. Of course, it was all mixed with the Lebanese people, too. But always the Armenians, they, uh, stayed together, they find, uh, a place to found a church and a school so we continue our, uh, I mean to survive and stay Armenian. 7:58 JK: And I am assuming that, um, your whole family spoke Armenian– your parents, your siblings, you included? 8:05 AK: Yes, yes. Of course, we adopted the country that we live at but we went to Armenian school. Of course, we spoke Armenian but we had to learn Arabic, which was the language of the country and French also, or English as an international language as Lebanon was a French colony after the World, uh, War. So, we had to take a few languages– Armenian because we were Armenian, Arabic because we lived in Lebanon and French and English as international languages. 8:46 JK: Uh, growing up in your school, were the other Armenian families, uh, that mi– uh came to Lebanon and Beirut, was it because of the genocide? 8:56 AK: Well, of course, most of them– most of them we were– alike, yes. Most of them–the, uh, yeah. I believe so. 9:09 JK: And do you recall any stories from that or–anything at all from the migration? 9:18 AK: I– it was all the similar stories like, uh, a neighbor’s house and everything got confiscated. They had to leave and they were– and, uh, some of them, uh, some of the family members died on the road because of starvation and it is all similar stories. And, uh, some of them have more tragic stories, some of them, uh, it is– different stories depending on the road they were led by their, uh, connections and, uh, some went to Greece some went to France, uh, some stayed in Syria because they could not continue. Uh, Armenia was a very big country then, now it is very small and, uh, that was why some went to Jerusalem. Yeah, they all have different stories but very similar. 10:27 JK: And, uh, in the Armenian school you, you had all Armenian friends, I am assuming, or– 10:37 AK: Yes, yes. We were all Armenians but, uh, because it was like an institution and we had the boarding section too, um, people came– like, students came from all over the countries. Like from United States and, uh, France and Greece to learn Armenian and the history and the country because, uh, their ancestors had made to all these countries, you know, uh, around that time. 11 :16 JK: Uh, also in Bing– 11:17 AK: Because there is like three generations who were speaking– 11:21 JK:–Also, yeah, in, um, Beirut, did you attend Armenian Church? 11:28 AK: Yes, uh, on Sundays we would go to Armenian church and our parents would take us, uh, uh, to church it was–we learned about the traditions through, um, like, uh, the festive days and everything they kept all the traditions and it was, uh, commemoration days also like April 24th which, uh, we commemorate, uh, and we remember the worst day of the genocide 1915, April 24 and, uh, and after that one, um, in 1918, May 28 we got our independence. We celebrate that day– we celebrate in school and we celebrate in the church also, just to remember our ancestors and we organize, uh, cultural, uh, gatherings. So, that is how we learn more about our culture and traditions. 12:40 JK: And, um, after Lebanon, you moved to Montreal, correct? 12:47 AK: Yes, during the Lebanese War, we had no choice, we, we wanted to stay but the Civil War was, uh, very treacherous and, uh, we had to stay but always we thought that we would go back to Lebanon and we were always grateful and we loved the country but the war never ended and it became, uh, even worse so we stayed in Montreal and we continued the same traditions–that we had started in, uh, in Beirut, Lebanon. 13:35 JK: And was there a big Armenian community in Montreal? 13:39 AK: Yes, and uh the first uh comers like there are Armenians– they were Armenian who had been stopped in Egypt because that is how far they could go like um from the genocide and uh when there was big uh war in Egypt too, some people migrated to Montreal. Many Armenians came to Armenia, uh, from Egypt to, uh, Montreal and, uh, over the years other Armenians came from Syria and in 19– around 1974 and so on, uh, we came from, uh, Lebanon so Armenians before us like from Egypt they had started already to build an Armenian church and the school and we always continued to continue and build our church and schools so, uh, we continue, uh, and to preserve our roots and never forget what our ancestors went through, uh, yeah. 15:01 JK: And how did you preserve your Armenian traditions other than the church and the school? What other ways did you– 15:10 AK: It– now that I am married and I have, uh, my, uh, kids I continue to do the same way as my parents did and more, um, in different ways. We, we go to church, maybe not as often, but we still go at festive days and, uh, certain historic days now, Armenia became independent in September 25th, to– from the Russian Empire. So, we have that celebration to–and same as my parents did, we also– and my husband we always speak Armenian in the house and we always tell them, uh, traditions from the literature and we take them to Armenian theater or we, uh, send them to learn the Armenian dance. Uh, in the school or in the community center– we have a community center and we organize, um, celebrations on like history days and festive days and holidays. So, we always keep the songs we used to sing some of them, some parts of it and that is how and now with the internet, they have, uh, they have access to all kinds of the Armenian history even though they went a few years to Armenian school. Um, now, sometimes for school, they do their research on Armenian history or as you are doing Jackie, and that is how we keep our traditions and, uh, we learn more. 17:29 JK: And would you say– which, uh, area you lived in, either Montreal or Beirut, which one had a stronger Armenian community do you think? 17:41 AK: Of course in Beirut. Although we adapted to the Lebanese and we interacted and we learned a lot from them too, and food and the festive days. We always had our community center and, and I should say, Beirut was a very, very small city so we are very connected. Here in Montreal, it is very big and there are many Armenians who went to different parts of Canada and the States. We have a– big communities in Toronto, Vancouver, like in LA, and New Jersey. So whoever has the family wherever they went there so, I believe we have thirty-thousand Armenian maybe in Canada, so we always have a community center, and, uh, it is getting smaller, but we are in many major cities in the world in Europe, in France. Also we have a big community in France because whoever went there, they, they stayed there and they continue. We have churches and schools maybe in Marcy and in Paris maybe, so– 19:13 JK: And, um, going back to your family and the traditions. Uh, what were some traditions that represented Armenia to you in the household, like whether certain fo– foods or holidays you would celebrate? 19:29 AK: I picked up everything. A bit of some food that, um, because we were– we used to have big families and, uh, sometimes we make food for a lot of people we have and I continue telling stories about the names of the food and, I do not know, it is the traditions; what we do on some holidays like January the sixth and Easter. They eat not only about– it is about– how can I say religious connotations too we, we, uh, it is not allowed but a little of– a bit of everything the folklore dances and, uh– 20:32 JK:–What kind of foods do you know or certain foods that you guys would eat or like the songs or dances, can you name? 20:45 AK: Well [laughs] I cannot explain that but, uh, I can talk about harissa which is very famous food with Armenians would be– which is like made with meat and, uh, cracked wheat so and you make a lot– it is very healthy because winters were very harsh in, uh, Ar– like Armenia so they would make this food which would give a lot of energy and the word means like you have to beat a lot to make a very homogeneous mixture and our teachers would tell stories about this food that whoever came to the house had to stir it and stir it because the name says like harissa means like very continuously and the–that is how it was named and, ah, this kind of stories I tell them and our teachers would say sometimes because we were very inviting people and when–because it–this food takes a long while to make it. Some, uh, like fathers would see that the hus– like the wife was making this food and they would invite all their friends because it has made a lot and funny stories. And all of a sudden the whole house is full of people. Stories like that, but yeah, and the dance most of the time on happy occasions we put the Armenian music and danced folkloric dance. Some of the dances are very gracious, some of them is, uh, very how can I say, uh, 23:00 JK: Emotional? 23:01 AK: Very, I do not know how to say. You have to see it. 23:07 JK: And, um, was your husband– is your husband Armenian? 23:11 AK: Yes, my husband is Armenian too and we have similar stories and, uh, yeah. And, uh, he, he has the same beliefs and the– we adapt to the country that received us, but we keep always our traditions. And we acquire other traditions throughout the cities and countries that we live in. And, uh, it makes very interesting we are open to other cultures too, and we keep our traditions also. 23:55 JK: And, um, did you teach your children to learn Armenian? 24:01 AK: Pardon? 24:02 JK: Did you teach your children Armenian growing up? 24:05 AK: Yes, yes they went a few years to Armenian school. Uh, and yeah we continue speaking Armenian and sometimes, uh, you know, sometimes they answer in English but I continuously answer in Armenian they, they, uh, they, uh, because it is not the same life here as it was in Beirut, Lebanon. 24:39 JK: And was it important for you to teach them Armenian? 24:42 AK: Yes, of course. When you know a language you know better culture and understand better the people and the way they live and, uh, it is very important. It does not hurt to know your language and learn more. 25:03 JK: And have you ever been back? Or have you ever been to Armenia? 25:08 AK: No, my husband has been and one of my daughters have been, uh, to Armenia and, uh, yeah one of my daughters, Karine has been to Armenia and visited the places and help, um, wherever there was a need because we had a very horrible earthquake, too, so– 25:40 JK:–Did you ever want to go? 25:42 AK:–Please continue, yeah. 25:44 JK: Have you ever wanted to go to Armenia or visit? 25:47 AK: Of course, of course, of course. We are going to go– I am thinking of taking the whole family. But the schedules are different. And so we always believe, eventually, we going to go and, uh, yes. 26:03 JK: And how would you identify yourself? Canadian-Armenian, Armenian-Lebanese? 16:14 AK: Um, I am– my nationality is Lebanese but I am Armenian. So– and now I live in Canada and I have the Canadian citizenship and we adapt but we are Armenian we, we live as we adapt to the country we adapt to the Canadian life and we go with their traditions, too, but we never forget ours either. We are Armenians in Canada. My kids are Canadians but they are Armenian descent and I be– I live now in Canada, and that is the way of life by a breath and I am Armenian. 27:09 JK: And, um, do you think you can remain Armenian without either the language, the homeland or the church? 27:20 AK: Um, it is– by name, you can remain but if you–it is about the willingness to know about your roots. If you do not have that willingness, it does not–and if you do not contribute to the Armenian life and the community, and– then you do not remain Armenian, it is the willingness of people to, uh, remain Armenian, but adapt to the country that has received us. You do not have to lose your identity. It does not mean that I am not Canadian. So– but my roots– my– I am born Armenian. 28:11 JK: And what about the church? Do you think you can be Armenian without the church as a whole or no? 28:22 AK: We can be Armenian but Armenians were the first nation to be Christian. I believe in three-o-one we were the first nation. So, um, I cannot answer that question, but you can be Armenian. If you are not Christian, if you do not want to remain Christian, you can still remain Armenian. But it is the willingness as I said, it is up– it is individually us–or maybe we know too much about our history and ancestors, we continue– our duty because our ancestors, they were massacres and they died for– to keep us, uh, the country and, uh, that is our land. So we do our duty for our Armenian nation. 29:34 JK: Okay, thank you so much. Is there anything else you would like to add or say? 29:41 AK: Huh? 29:42 JK: Uh, is there anything else you would like to add to the interview? 29:49 AK: No it is enough, uh, Jackie because– 29:50 JK:–Thank you. (End of Recording 1) 29:54 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collections Library. This is a continuation interview with Annie Kabakian. So, um, what did your family members do, um, before the genocide? 30:12 AK: All I can remember is that, um, my father’s side ancestors they had big land in Armenia and they were cultivating pumpkins and, uh, so when they left, uh, we– they left all that land behind and they went to Antep first where– you know– they were forced to move there so, uh, my grandfather at that time became a controller in a bank and that is all I remember. And I remember that, um, one of my grandma’s fathers were in the– was a general in the Army and his name is in the Armenian history books but I have the picture but I cannot remember his name and then, uh, one of my father’s side uncle was a lawyer in Antep in Bursa, by the way, in Bursa, another part that the Armenians were forced to move. And, um, I remember my mom saying that the father was a big, uh, famous tailor for the army outfits, um, that is how they survived– all of them, uh, most of them, I should say, uh, my uncle the lawyer was, uh, hung during the– those times of 1920– yeah somewhere around there. Yes, so, uh, that is it. 32:04 JK: And he was hung because he was Armenian, or– 32:11 AK: Pardon? 32:12 JK: It– uh the last part you said he was hung, because he was Armenian? 32:17 AK: Yeah, well he was hung in, uh, I think in Bursa and, uh, yeah. Uh, and, um, my grandma got married and my father I believe he was born in, uh, somewhere in Aintab and then, uh, during the genocide times, they were moved to Syria and then I do not believe they stayed too long and they came to Lebanon. Yeah. And my mother too, uh, was from Bursa. She was– the family was from Bursa, she was born in Beirut, Lebanon. Yeah. 33:01 JK: Is there anything else you would like to add, or– 33:10 AK: Uh, like, um, my grandparents were– one controller in Aintab and the other one was born in Bursa on the way sometimes, Armenians, when they meet, they marry, so, uh, that was how they got married and, um, we always try to stay together in communities as our short story famous writer William Saroyan always says, “Wherever there are two Armenians, they come together, they build a church and a school and we can never destroy their sense of community.” That is all I can say, that is how we survive and we continue our traditions and with survival sometimes it is the willingness, uh, to continue because we know how much our ancestors– they tried hard and survived and, uh, you know. Life goes on. 34:21 JK: Exactly. 34:22 AK: Yes. 34:22 JK: Thank you so much. 34:26 AK: Very welcome. 34:27 JK: All right. 34:27 AK: Okay. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Annie Kabakian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3a8c37b34ea56f6ce9e2cff1bc9c547a.mp3 031dcbd2a02628bce97c9e6894c2e3f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 11/26/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Varoujan Kabakian Language Engish Digital Publisher Binghamron University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 21:50 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Varoujan Kabakian Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 26 November 2017 Interview Setting: Phone Interview -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:01 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collection Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is November 26, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record? 0:15 VK: Yeah, my name is Varoujan Kabakian. 0:18 JK: And where were you born? 0:20 VK: I am born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:24 JK: And who are your ̶ Who are your parents and where were they born? 0:29 VK: Yeah, my father was born in. Um, Antep, the old Armenia and now it is Turkish area. My mother was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 0:45 JK: And, um ̶ Why did they ̶ Why did not ̶ How did you relocate from Canada or from Lebanon to Canada or from Antep, as well? 1:00 VK: Yeah, well, you know, from my father was born in just before the Armenian genocide. And so with the parents, they run down south on the map to Aleppo, Syria, because of the First World War. And after a while they move to Beirut, which is a bit southern and on the Mediterranean and where he met my mother, and they got married, and I have three brothers ̶ no, two brothers and two sisters. And what happened is I am born in Beirut and when I was eighteen, the Civil War breakup in Lebanon, the famous Civil War in Lebanon. So as we were Armenians and the Civil War was among the Arabs and Palestinians, you know, religion all mixed up. We were not involved in the Civil War. So what happened is we decided to move on. And then at that time, the Canadian Embassy was making it easy for us to immigrate to Canada. So we applied and we got accepted and we came to Canada. That was, that was what happened like we keep on moving and moving. But now Canada is, you know, more Christian countries. So as we are Christians, we find finally a country that is close to our customs on the origin. 2:59 JK: Hmm, do you recall the stories of your father who lived in Antep? What it was like in the village? 3:08 VK: Yeah, yeah, was ̶ What I heard like they used to talk a lot at that time, you know, because the memories were fresh when I was young. They kept on telling us the stories. It was a nice, very nice village, you know, like, more with the ̶ Um, surrounded with vineyards. And they were really the vineyards was the main agricultural aspect of the village, you know, like hills. 3:43 JK: Yeah. Yeah. 3:48 VK: And what can I say? Very nice place, very nice. The weather was very nice. I mean hot. 3:56 JK: Was it mostly Armenians? 4:00 VK: Dry, I guess. And they were in the vineyard business. And then with the war they moved on to, as I said to down south to Syria, which, which, which they welcome them and you know, the life continues. 4:16 JK: So they had to leave Antep. 4:20 VK: Yeah. 4:20 JK: Were they forced? 4:23 VK: Because after ̶ Like a civil war and the genocide as it turned to genocide, you know, it was a mixed with the First World War and again, was not far from so they had to run for their lives. Otherwise, I would not be here. That is what happens. You know, you have to sometimes you have to ̶ you know like get a ̶ you have to ̶ 4:53 JK: What did, what did your father do and how old was he when he left? Do you remember? Was ̶ you? 5:03 VK: Oh yeah, he was like a baby when he left Antep, he was like two years old, two, three years old, newly born or I guess, something like that we never know the real age because you know, of the events there. You know, they did not kept record of the ̶ I do not know, I guess the real date but it was very it was very small. 5:30 JK: Did he have any? Did he have any siblings? 5:33 VK: The family they moved into Aleppo and the father, they survived that to do their work and to find other ways. Yeah. 5:45 JK: Yeah. Did he have any siblings growing up or was it just him? 5:54 VK: I did not get it. Sorry. 5:55 JK: Did he have any siblings growing up brothers or sisters? 6:01 VK: Yeah, for sure. Umm, he told me like you had the brother, an older brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was what the ̶ his brother helped him I guess survive and the ̶ I do not remember, I guess yeah one brother. Yeah. 6:27 JK: Okay. Both of your parents were Armenian correct, 100 percent? 6:33 VK: Yeah. 100 percent yeah. 6:37 JK: And growing up in Lebanon, did they keep the Armenian tradition or did you go to Armenian Church or school? 6:46 VK: Yeah, what happened is as a refugee like the number at that time was a huge you know, because it was a mass movement of people from Armenia to Syria, Lebanon. And Lebanon to ̶ So what happened is because of the number we were like we, we were elected. Kept all our tradition because, because of the number right. We were not like, one person, or one thousand ̶ At that time, I imagine was like, by ten out of ten thousands of them, you know, like they moved into Lebanon. So they lived together like as, as a community so and when you live together as a community, they build church, they build a school. What happens, we were lucky to keep our traditions and everything because we were not dispersed among other religions because you know, Lebanon, there are so many religions, there are no Muslims, different kinds of Muslims, different kind of Christians. You Name it. So, we live ̶ the neighborhood was we were all Armenians. You know the school was not far, the church was not far so I do not even remember I had ̶ a friend. All my friends were Armenian. I know my father because of the work, you know, you get involved with different people but me as a born in Beirut, it was as if I was in Armenia. [laughs] You know, like, all my friends were Armenian, the area was Armenian. That was how we kept our division. 8:37 JK: What are your parents do in Lebanon for work? 8:43 VK: Oh, my father, I think my father was very bright. So what happened is, he came to the States to study university and he graduated from Wyoming University. So, when he returned to Lebanon, he was in the textile business you know, like he was very talented in, in the field, the chemistry field. So he did a lot of things, dyeing textiles, coloring, textiles, printing, so he was in that business. So until the civil war he was he had his own place. He was producing different kind of textiles, silk, cotton um, you know. 9:42 JK: And, so, would you say all of your friends were mostly Armenian growing up? 9:48 VK: Yeah, yeah, Lebanon, we were mostly, like I said, I do not remember I had a friend or another ̶ Yeah, they were all Armenians because we were living in an Armenian neighborhood you know. As I said we had the numbers so we were in the neighborhood of Armenians. You know, when I was schooling when I finished I did not even finish the school so because of the Civil War, so I came I did not have the chance to go out for sure you go to the mountains you go somewhere else in Lebanon. For sure you see little, but that was only temporary ̶ time we spend like with Armenians. 10:34 JK: Did you learn Armenian growing up as a kid or did you speak in the household? 10:43 VK: Yeah, we use ̶ my mother, you know my mother language, my father language was Armenian with the house we used to speak Armenian. Of course in the school we learn Arabic, we learn French, we learn English, as well as Armenian. So ̶ But there is no problem with that. 11:04 JK: And so when you when you were with your siblings and your family would speak mainly Armenian? 11:10 VK: Yeah that time you love or not like, you will not see ̶ it was hardly only the older people they used to speak Turkish because of the back ̶ in their country you know like used to be only Turkish because it was forbidden to speak Armenian in Armenia. But in West Armenia, in eastern Armenia and nor was forbidden to speak Armenia, Armenian you know. You had to speak Turkish so the older people were speaking Turkish at home, but the younger generation somehow learn more Armenian than Turkish, yeah. 12:01 JK: Did your parents know Turkish or no? 12:05 VK: No, no, no. Yeah, my ̶ They used to speak Turkish. Yeah, but they are Armenian. They are Armenians born in eastern Armenia. Eastern Armenia? No, I mean western Armenia. Sorry. Western Armenia is more Turkish speaking because of the Turkish Empire you know? Yeah. 12:27 JK: Yeah. 12:29 VK: Yeah. History is, it is another aspect. 12:39 JK: When, um, when so when your father was in Antep, were your family forbidden to speak Armenian or was there Armenians in the area, would you ̶ 12:51 VK: He was, he was forbidden to speak Armenian at home even at home. You know, if you Speak, you have to speak like you have to make sure that you speak there was no nobody hears because if somebody hears and they tell the government you know, they ̶ there were some penalties, big penalties. I do not want to go far. [laughs] But there were some penalties ̶ was very bad becoming in at that time. 13:19 JK: And, how did you ̶ Have you ever wanted to go back to the village or Armenia? Wherever? Have you ever been back? 13:29 VK: No, I have not been but my cousin went, like twenty years, like, I think, or fifteen years ago, she went and there were ̶ she said, there were still some Armenian homes left but with no Armenians, but they turn it to move museums. You know, like, you could tell me in names still you could see some, some history that ̶ it has still kept but now they are all Kurdish and some Turks, you know, because it is an area that Armenia is shared with the Kurdish people, you know, and Kurdish people were Muslim. So that is why they survived because of their religion and we as being a Christian, we had to move on, you know. We had to emigrate south. 14:26 JK: Yeah. And, um, when you move to Montreal, Canada, did you guys keep the Armenian traditions? 14:39 VK: A Yes. For sure. Because Canada, Montreal being a Christian city, you know, and it was easier, you know, religion side, at least more freedom of religious expression and everything. And the tradition. Yeah, there were ̶ As I said, in Beirut there were we had some numbers when we came to Montreal, there was an Armenian community already established here. So but not as much as in Lebanon you know, but still, if you want to keep your tradition you could keep your tradition because you have community which is still remembering the Armenian tradition. 15:29 JK: And um, in the house would you grew up in your household with your family? What kind of traditions did you guys keep that were Armenian like the food or holidays that you celebrated? 15:45 VK: The holidays especially the ̶ all the food for sure, because we were used to it that Mediterranean style food but for sure. We ̶ Canadian French food and Canadian Food is welcome too. Because it is not, it is not complicated as Armenian food so it's easier to make you cannot always make Armenian traditional food so you make Canadian of food which is more convenient. But holidays is the second thing that we respect and remember because of these three. 16:34 JK: Okay. And you attended church in Montreal to you said the community was big right? 16:42 VK: Yeah we have like two, three Armenian churches you know and we do not go as often as before, before we used to go every Sunday now we go like once in a while because you know, it is the cold weather, the way of life, the style of life is different now you do not have as much time to do the way you do things before, you know, but we still go for sure. 17:18 JK: And, it was it. Was it important for you to get married or to be married to Arme ̶ Armenian or? 17:27 VK: Because of the history, you know, like, we have to keep alive the history that we went through and remember where we came from? So, it was for me important maybe some people, they are not old, they do not follow as much as some others and everybody is different in it depends on your beliefs, you know, your beliefs if you forget, it is easy to not get married with an Armenian but if you believe that you have to get married with an Armenian you could get married with an Armenian. So it is all depend on you. 18:15 JK: And, was it important for your family as an adult to keep the Armenian traditions? 18:23 VK: Oh yeah for sure. Especially the closer you from the timing ̶ and close to the refugee time it is stronger the beliefs to stay Armenian to keep the tradition to get married to the Armenian. But now with as the generations move further and further, you see more people not marrying the same. 18:58 JK: And, um, finally, how would you identify or what would you say you identify yourself as in like your homeland? Are you a Canadian, Armenian or Armenian, Canadian or Lebanese, for example? How would you describe your identity? 19:20 VK: I am Armenian Canadian, now. I am naturalized Canadian. Also, I am Armenian Canadian. 19:29 JK: And, um finally, do you think it is important for the Armenian culture to have um the church or the language? What do you think is most important that comes with Armenian culture? 19:53 VK: Part of the Armenian history you know, we were very Christian or we believed in it and the religion is number one I would say number one reason being Armenian you know, and then the language for sure. But mostly the most important is religion because we are known to be very religious Christian. So I think as long as we have the religion we will stay Armenian. 20:29 JK: And, um, do you think you would ever want to go to Armenia? 20:35 VK: Yeah, for sure. I sent my daughter last year to Armenia. Me, it is hard a bit harder to go because of the work I cannot go that far and that longer because to go to Armenia still you have to spend like two three weeks a month you know, I do not have I usually do not take vacation. So maybe what I get tired I would love to go and visit my country. 21:05 JK: Okay, great. Thank you. Is there anything else you want to add about the Armenian culture, your family where they grew up? 21:17 VK: Oh, I know is a nice place that I like to be there. But for now, I cannot be. But the future will see. For now, we hope to visit and really see what kind of place was. Well now I cannot say anything. But we hope that one day we visit. 21:45 JK: Okay, great. Thank you so much. 21:48 VK: You are welcome. Thank you. (End of Interview) Biographical Text Varoujan Kabakian is the son of a genocide survivor who immigrated from Turkey to Lebanon in the early 1900s. Varoujan was born and raised in Beirut, Lebanon. Later on, he moved to Montreal, Canada. He continues to live there with his family. Keywords Armenians; Lebanon; Turkey; Beirut; Genocide; Survivors; Religion; Culture; Language; Family. Material Type Sound Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Varoujan Kabakian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c3a18069bfe5794ca2e111e9fa19e8c4.mp3 76cd6b34a1185ff94d332158d338a972 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12/1/2017 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marion and Dr. George Rejebian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Armenian Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information Biographical Text Marion Rejebian was born in Bronx, NY to Armenian parents who were escaping the genocide. Marion went to Hunter College and became an elementary school teacher. She taught for a few years of her marriage and then she devoted her life to raise her children. Dr. Rejebian was born in Binghamton to Armenian parents. He first attended Triple City's College of Syracuse University (now Binghamton University) majoring in Biology. He then graduated from dental school at Georgetown University. After graduation, he served for six years as a dental officer in the Navy. George and Marion currently resides in Binghamton and together, they have two children, Gary and Vivian. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Marion and George Rejebian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty Date of interview: 1 December 2017 Interview Setting: Binghamton --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------   (Start of Interview)   00:05 JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian oral history project. Today is No ̶  December 1, 2017. Can you please state your names for the record?    00:19 MR: Sure. I am Marion Rejebian and this is my husband George.    00:24 GR: I am-yeah I am Dr. George Rejebian.    00:28 JK: And where were you both born?    00:30 MR: I was born in the Bronx, New York City and George was born in Binghamton.   00:38 JK: And who are your parents and where were they born?    00:42 MR: Okay. My parents were Garabed and Dicranouhi Ekizian, E-K-I-Z-I-A-N. And they were born in Chomaklou [Turkish: Çomaklı], which is in Turkey which is a very small hilly village just south, south of the Erciyes Mountain [Turkish: Erciyes Dağı] and near to Syria. George, why do not you tell them?    01:14 GR: Oh yeah, my parents, my father came from Hadjin [Turkish: Saimbeyli], which is the town in the interior of Turkey near Adana. Adana is on the, on the Mediterranean. And it is, it is a little inland. It was a mountain village. And my mother came from Sivas, which is ̶  or Sebastia as they call which is a larger city, actually. And do you want to know the way they got here?    01:47 JK: Of course, yes.    01:48 GR: Oh, sure. Well, my, my mother went through the massacres, and she, with her grandmother and her brother and her sister. They did the death march they went from Turkey to Deir ez Zor, which is in, in Syria present. Well, it still was not Syria then. And then her brother died in route. And of course, the atrocities were terrible they were. They kept no fa ̶  food or water and had to improvise as best they could. I remember my mother telling me how they, you know, when the horses make footprints water gathers in there, they had to drink that water to stay alive, you know, to get to, but ultimately, she ended up in in Beirut in an orphanage. Her grandmother, she lost her brother on the death march her grandmother passed away, and her sister and her made it to an orphanage in Beirut. She was in that orphanage for several years, and then was sent to Marseille, France. And from Marseille she immigrated to Havana, Cuba. She worked there, whatever work she could get in through an arranged marriage, it was always in those days, you know, they, they would, they would know somebody and somebody apparently knew my father and mutual friend, you know, they mutually knew each other. So, he went to Havana on in those days, they used to have boats, gambling boats, you know, that used to go to Havana from New York, and he went to Havana on one of the gambling boats to get to meet her. And so they got married in Havana, and I still have the marriage license which is in Spanish [laughs] and, and they and brought her back. And then they settled they lived actually on Corbett Avenue which is where our church is and that was the Armenian ghetto at that time. That was where the biggest concentration of, of Armenians were. And the next best one was the first ward Clinton Street in that area. So that was the way they got here. And, and then apparently, they lived on Corbett avenue for some time. So that was how they got her. Do you want to go any further?    04:45 JK: Yes, of course. I am going back to the villages that your mom lived in. Was there any stories that she ̶  you recall her telling you or how old and how old was she when they had to leave?    04:59 GR: Oh when she, when she went through this?    05:01 JK: Yeah, do you ̶    05:03 GR: Oh she was, she was probably a young girl about eight or eight or ten years old, you know in that area and, and her sister who is Mangooshag's mother, do you know Manooshag Seraydarian? She is my mother's sister her, her mother and my mother were sisters. But um anyway, they there were a lot of atrocities along the way. I mean, the Turks. They, they herded them like animals. They did not give them any food. And some of them who had gold pieces and whatnot, were able to buy favors like, you know, maybe get some food and whatnot. But a lot of them died along the way I mean, in that, in that area and, and of course, hurt. I will step back a step, before she left Sivas, which is the town she came from. The Turks came in they rounded up all the all the men. And first, her father was, was a photographer and a teacher. And so they rounded up the more intelligent ones and they and they shot him in front of their families shot them or hang them. And so before she left, Sivas, she had she they witnessed this is this little kids so you know, every atrocity you could imagine it was, it was just horrible but everybody who has been through that death march tells a different story.    06:58 MR: But it is all the same really.    07:00 GR: Yeah, well, I mean a different way that they were affected. But and as for my father, my father lived in a in Hadjin, Hadjin and Zeytun were the two towns that fought against the Turks.    07:22 MR: Well many towns did, but they were ̶    07:23 GR: Well, the, the main ones, you know. And so it was almost like 100 percent Armenian village. And they knew that these massacres were coming in it was developing over a period of time. So they rounded up all the young boys on seventeen and under, and they snuck them off to Adana and got them on ships and sent them to the United States because they knew they would not ever be get killed, you know.    07:58 MR: And your father was one of them.    08:00 GR: My father was one of them. So he did not actually go through the massacres. But he came through Ellis Island. And he had ̶  he did not know any English. And he had a five-dollar gold piece, English gold piece in his pocket. And that was it. And they had to, you know, then like all the other ones like they, they just made it on their own. I mean, there was no assistance or no welfare or anything like that in those days. And my father tells me this story, how they would go and, and wait in lines for the union bosses to pick who was going to get work that day. And they never picked the Italians or the Jews or the Armenians. It was, you know, and so he said, we finally got tired of standing in line and going hungry and having nothing thing to do. And we went out and started our own businesses or we went to work. Yeah so yeah, that was how my how my father got here.    09:14 MR: George, did your father, your father was a cobbler? Did he know that trade when he came? Or did he learn it?   09:21 GR: Yeah he knew, he knew that trade. But he would not start his own business immediately work for Endicott Johnson, like a lot of the other Armenian immigrants did for a few years so he could get enough money to start his own shoe repair shop, you know, right. And just as your father did with the rugs, right?   09:45 MR: Do you want me to tell?    09:46 JK: Oh yes.    09:46 MR: As we go along, or just wait until ̶   09:49 JK: Do you want to go?    09:50 MR: No, I mean, I, I can ̶    09:52 GR: Yeah, I can go on and ̶  [laughs]    09:55 MR: All right well so my parents were, as I said, born and-both of them were born in Chomaklou. Um, they had an upper village and a lower village, you know. And so they were like, you know, these arranged marriages I think when they were born. Oh god that would be nice for Dicranouhi or something like that you know so they knew for a long time that they would probably get married to each other I guess. But what happened with my, my mom was, was only two years old when ̶  at the beginning of the massacre. And she went ̶  she and my father both went through the entire death march. My mother's parents were killed when she was, she was an orphan at two years of age, and her grandmother who was probably in her forties, you know, raised her and my, my great grandmother had a handicapped son. So I cannot even begin to imagine how that even worked but she had to carry him ̶  he was ̶  he would not walk. So they would walk a distance on the death march and then she would wait there with the other villagers the ̶  my mother would, and then she walked back and get the son put on his back and, and walk forward. I mean, it was just unbelievable kind of deprivation. They all went through the starvation and the lack of water and all of that, you know, and how they survived is just a mystery to me, but my, my father was a twelve years older than my mother. So he went through the same ̶  similar things the whole village was told to evacuate and, and start walking. And she finally ̶  and she went through Syria and different.    12:13 GR: That was-they went through Deir ez Zor, which is a desert.    12:16 MR: Yeah and she ended up in ̶  and my father too ̶  They both ended up in Beirut, Lebanon. And so she, she and my father managed to get through like a grade school education ̶  I would say my mother was very interested in in schoolwork and she, she had a beautiful Armenian penmanship ̶  beautiful, and they were always interested in education in the little village of Chomaklou, you know, would send their kids to America, like, like, like in George's situation. He was a little older. So they sent him to the states ̶      13:08 GR: Yeah my father was seventeen.    13:09 MR: Yeah. And the purpose always was to, if you could get an education fine, if not, then get a job and then send money back to them in order to get a little bit of aid because they had nothing, they really did not have anything but their land or their apartment or whatever. And so that was how they, they ̶   my mother was seventeen when she married my father, and my father had come first to the United States with that idea of, of either getting an education or a job at that point, he got a job. He was an oriental rug repairman. And, but he was a very ambitious person and he learned the trade of rug repairing. And then when he was able many years later after he brought, he brought his family over to the United States and settled them and then he went ̶   was very astute in his rug repairing and really learned the business and he had a boss who was Syrian and happened to like my father and always encouraged him. So eventually my father went off on his own and had his own loft, and not only repaired oriental rugs with expertise but also started a business where he would put an ad in the New York Post, the New York Post, it was existent in those days. I made one now ̶   You can imagine he would put the ad in the paper, highest cash prices paid for your oriental rugs. Okay? And then he would go, they did not have cars then that he could drive, I mean, he was not, did not have a license, he would take a bus or whatever get to wherever this apartment was, he sometimes had to go up four or five floors high. They did not even have many elevators in those buildings. And he would inspect the rugs. And if he felt that he could turn a quick profit, you know, like, a couple hundred dollars or whatever it is. He would buy the rug, bail it while he was there, get it down the stairs somehow. I mean, these are ̶   my father was not a big man. He was like, five, six [5’6”] and you know, not really a heavy man and he would bail the rug and then somehow get it down the stairs and then haul a cab or whatever ̶   However, he was able to do it. And then pretty soon in this little loft that he had at 276 Fifth Avenue where all the other merchants were ̶   he accumulated enough rugs where he was very successful, you know, and, and that was how he got his start.   16:30 GR: You know, an interesting thing about both our fathers came from Ellis Island. And, in fact, there was a wall there and their names are on there. And I think the year that they came through and all that, but my father tells me that, you know, they did not know a word of English and he said, we, we came into Ellis Island, they took us in a room and asked us a whole bunch of questions. And he said I ̶   he said the fellow might as well have been talking to the wall because he said I did not know what he was saying. So he said every question he asked me I said yes. [laughs] And the examiner finally said, well, you are okay, you are okay. Go ahead. And that was, that was how they ̶  and your father probably had a similar experience ̶  coming through Ellis ̶  have you been to Ellis Island ever? You should go sometime.   17:25 JK: I have been on the Staten Island ferry ̶  right and see the Statue of Liberty.   17:32 GR: It is well ̶   they have a museum ̶  exhibit it is very nice now.   17:34 MR: At the other side of the island.   17:39 GR: But anyway, so that was how they got here. And, and you know, they had to make their own way there was they did not have really any help except maybe their friends. In the beginning, the, the men would live together, and like there would be five or six and if they got if one of them had a job, then the rest of would eat ̶  could eat you know? Yeah, that was that kind of thing until they got going where they were they got themselves established enough to be able to support themselves, you know, but they did it usually it was a group situation where the group of would rent an apartment. And of course, there was a lot of funny stories about that. Maybe you do not want to hear those. [laughs]   18:31 JK: So going back to when both of your parents lived in their villages. Do they recall any stories? Before the gen ̶  the massacre had occurred and did they know when they were ̶  had to do the death march walk the death march, march. What was going on? Did they know that?   18:55 MR: The political scene you mean.   18:57 JK: Yeah, and ̶    18:58 MR: My parents did not but I think maybe George's father knew or some ̶  he was older. You know, my mother was only two. So what did she know? And I do not know that her grandmother really knew no, I really do not know.   19:14 GR: No, my father's, my father's family raised horses. And so of course, they, they went out and traded did a lot of trading. So, as a result, they had more of an opportunity to know what was going on politic ̶  politically in the country. And they felt that there was a massacre, you know, when 1896 and then they had won in 1915, the big one, and in 1915, because Hadjin where my father came from was such a remote village. They, they really were able to sort of survive that. And then in 9 ̶  the big battle of Hadjin in 1918, which was three years later with ̶   my father had left by then. But the Turks decided, well, you know, we have had enough of this. We were going to exterminate them and get rid of them. And so 6000 Hagjinses fought. I mean, you know, they had gotten supplies and arms and so forth. And they fought and only thirty-five survived. They were, they were just totally, totally annihilated, you know, by the Turk. So, but before that, my father, I mean, yeah, they did know. Tha ̶  the Turks never really treated them that well. I mean, they were like, second class citizens. They never were never treated as equals. And I think if you saw that movie ̶    20:53 JK: The promise?   20:53 MR: The promise?   20:55 GR: Yeah, you, you could get a feel of it ̶   they were how they were treated. You know, they, they were looked down on. And but they ̶   The church was very ̶   The church was as it, as it has kept Armenians together in this country. It was even more powerful there. I mean, that every village had its churches, and they, they were very devoted about how devout about how they kept their traditions and so forth and so on. So yeah, and I think they did, I am sure even in your father's village, they knew this thing with ̶    21:39 MR: I do not know, he never talked about politics so I do not really know.   21:42 GR: You know, despite what the Turks say, and you know this about, well, they were deportations or, or war refugees and all that. This was an organized plan from the highest sources in the government to exterminate the Armenians. They, they wanted to get rid of them. They did not want them in their country. And by whatever means they had to do it ̶    22:06 MR: Ethnic cleansing. That was what it was, yeah.   22:07 GR: Yeah, yeah. So it was a, it was an organized genocide. It really was. They still do not own up to it. But it was.   22:19 JK: Yes. Before that, before the two massacres occurred. Do you recall any stories from either of your families about what it was like living among the, with the Turkish people? You were saying how it was like, second, they were second class citizens. But anything else that you would like to add?   22:46 MR: They never really, you know.   22:47 GR: Well, we cannot personally tell you how it was.   22:50 JK: Yeah, of course.   22:50 GR: You know we were both born here. And so I do have, I mean, I have done a lot of research on it, and I do it. Papers telling what life and Hadjin was like and maybe I could give you that website. But if I can, you can look it up. It is about sixty-five pages. We were, we were ̶  an organization has done all this research and they tell you their, their medicine their, their folklore, how they did their holidays, you know when so forth. That if you want to really get into that, that might be interesting.   23:31 JK: Yeah of course I would love the see that thank you. And for both of your parents, did they obviously they spoke both Armenian did they also speak Turkish or ̶    23:43 MR: They spoke Turkish. Yes, of course. They spoke Turkish.   23:48 GR: Your father spoke some Arabic.   23:49 MR: Not much, you know, but uh, I am sure enough to get by.   23:54 GR: Now my father's family ̶   because they were in, they were in you know, business. They, they spoke ̶   they had to speak Turkish, Armenian and Arabic was, you know, quite prevalent in that area. But he spoke, he spoke Turkish; they had a dialect very unique to the village of Hadjin and he, he normally, he normally spoke that dialect or he spoke Turkish. He did not speak Armenian, true Armenian, Western Armenian we know what I learned my Armenian from my mother who was you know from Sivas from a city and her father was a teacher and so they I guess you could say that they were just as Spanish there was the Castilian Spanish and there was Catalan and all the other things so that was where I learned my Armenian and I did not know English when I started kindergarten, as many in my generation, you know, did and so I went to kindergarten and after a year or two they put me back. [laughs] Because they said, you know, he was stupid. Well in those days, there was no second language or anything if you did not know English, you know, you were stupid as far as the teachers were concerned. So I ̶   my father was furious and he was going to go down and, and raise the roof with the school and you know, why are you putting my boy back in my mother said, let me handle it. She said, I will take care of it. And all of a sudden she was taking baklava to the teacher make [indistinct] and all that. And lo and behold, they put me back in my class. And but I remember the ̶  it was kind of a pain learning English. I mean a real pain because I had an accent for a while until, you know, I really ̶    26:11 MR: And you mixed Armenian words with English words.   26:13 GR: Yeah I used to mix Armenian and English and of course that would the teacher would you know I want to go [speaking Armenian] you know, the teacher? Where do you want to go? And I think many of us are in that gen ̶  know, you know your uncle Art I guess he knew English better than that I did but, but you know at home my father spoke [the language from Hadjin] which I have a pretty good knowledge of and my mother spoke Armenian. And then the Turkish I learned was because they, when they did not want the kids to understand they spoke Turkish.   26:55 MR: And they swore in Turkish. [laughs]   26:59 GR: Yeah, and it is a phonetic language so it is very easy to pick up. Turkish is very ̶   it is relatively easy language to learn conversational. I do not know about the written because I cannot write it but yeah, so anyway, it was you know, we, we were first generation and that was a ̶   there were a lot of stigmas in those days that have gone away now, you know, they did not accept foreigners quite as readily as they do now and so forth. So yeah, I think but, but the prime focus I think that all of our parents had, and, and I think it is an Armenian thing is get an education. Because my mother used to always say, you know, they can, they can take all your money, they can take everything you have, but they cannot take what you know in your head out, which ̶  once it is in there, it is in there, you know? And so they were very education oriented. And they, wherever possible made sure that their kids got a college education, right?`   28:15 MR: Right.   28:16 GR: And ̶    28:17 MR: And I am, I was very proud of the fact that I was actually the first girl in my, you know, where the village that my parents came from, who settled in New York, that I knew of that even went to college or graduated from college. So, and I would not go away from home. My parents would not allow that. I mean, they did not even want you to go to camp. If it was not right next door, you know. So I went to Hunter College. I was fortunate that I got in, it was a very difficult school in those days to get in and I graduated I became a teacher, an elementary school teacher and loved it taught for a few years of my marriage and then the, the role of the woman in those days was to stay home with your kids once you had your own kids, you know, so, but you the education you use in raising your own children you know and, and so I never felt that that was a waste.   29:30 GR: And, and you know, even in our generation, there was a stigma against the ̶   for against, the immigrants and so forth because I, I encountered it several times like when, when I, I went through SUNY but after that I went to Georgetown. And, and I remember in a lot of interviews, Georgetown did not do this to me, but a lot of the places that I interviewed and it was very competitive. They would say, well, you know, what do you want to, what do you want to do this for? Why do not you be a shoemaker, like your father and so forth? You know, they put you down. And, and I felt that and really hurt, you know, but, but I guess we had a little of what our parents said, we stuck to it. And I went, you know, through Georgetown, and then Columbia and so forth. But education was a very, very important thing in our lives, you know, and we made sure that our kids got at least a college education.   30:44 JK: And growing up in you grew up in Bing-Binghamton and you grew up in New York City ̶  were there are a lot of Armenian people around you?   30:54 GR: Oh yes, yes our for, for one thing we always on the weekends. We always had picnics at State Park. Well, at first it was Ross Park. They used to do it because they did not have cars and so forth. But later on it was State Park, but you were pretty your social life was probably 90 percent with other Armenian kids, you know. And so, you had a lot in common you were very comfortable. The church was sort of the center of all activity, even though we did not have Badarak every week or in fact when I was like ten or twelve we only had Badarak every three months. And But still, you know, it was that was sort of the glue that held us together. And ̶    31:56 MR: Yes, and even in New York City where you know, I did not I as a as a child growing up I probably did not go to church any more frequently than George did even though I had a church you know to go to because you had to sit on a bus or, or a taxi or whatever to get there so I did not really I used to go to church probably on the holidays like a lot of people do now and, and then I did not go regularly to church until I was really able to take public transportation and, and go on my own and then I joined the choir and got more active with the youth and then joined ACYO, you know and, and most of my friends were are of Armenian background, too. And I do not know what else did you want. [laughs]   33:05 GR: Well one thing about the Armenians. I mean, we heard it from our parents, they loved this country. They were, they were like, so thankful that they had the opportunity to come here. And in fact, your father said that he knelt down and kissed the ground remember once and, and they wanted to assimilate even though they wanted to keep their traditions and their religion and everything, they wanted to assimilate, my mother went to, to school to learn English so she could become a citizen and you do not become ̶    33:42 MR: And that was true of our ̶  my parents as well.   33:45 GR: And I think that is one of the problems today is you see, like the Hispanics want to keep their language. They want to speak nothing but Spanish. They do not really want to assimilate and become Americans. But we had a very strong desire to do that. And, and I think it was a plus because it helped us to go further in the society that we had to compete and live in you know.   34:14 JK: And going back to that did your How did they keep like the Armenian traditions while trying to simulate Arme-American ̶    34:23 GR: Because they were they were always, you were always going to somebody's house somebody was coming to your house on Sundays there was always either a picnic or, or a function where they got together so that it was not like you saw Armenian kids once a month or at holidays; it was like this was your part of your life. I mean, you were with them all the time. You see, and they may and you were there that you made friends and even as you as we want ̶  went on into school and got you know, friends of all French whatever they are and everything. We still kept our ties. But we did not. But we did not like hold ourselves out as, as, as different. We tried to be like everybody. And I think that helped us that was a plus, you know. So that that is I think the way that they kept them together is probably the church number one, and then social activities. You know, by social activities, I mean, families came and went together. They did things together.   35:42 MR: But they also mingled with other non-Armenians, they mingled.   35:49 GR: Oh, yeah, well, they tried to assimilate. But there was language barrier, you know, they ̶    35:54 MR: Tried to assimilate without losing their Armenian heritage. They always were even in a big city, my parents were always very proud of, of who they were and where they came from, and the values that they had as Armenian Americans was always with them until the day they died. They were like that, but, you know, just as his parents went to English school to learn, you know, in the evenings, my mother used to go in the evenings ̶    36:30 GR: Yeah they really made an effort. They wanted to ̶    36:32 MR: They wanted very much to become citizens. And they were very proud of that, you know, and, and they always, were very, very grateful that they had the opportunity to be an American citizen to come to this country. And they said, you have no idea of ̶    36:54 GR: The fact that they were not living persecution every day.   36:57 MR: That is right, you know.   36:59 GR: You know.   37:00 MR: They always were very grateful to be here.   37:04 GR: And so I think, you know, it is like with our kids and, and so forth as the generations go the melting pot, you know, they, they get more and more but, but still, I think that Armenians have pretty much kept their, their traditions and they were all you know, there, there are certain things that are, that are sacred and we have kept most of it.   37:30 MR: We have but you know, we were only ̶  our parents were born overseas. So what are we first generation second generation, but as there was more and more intermarriage, you know, we, we noticed that the traditions are getting less and less, you know, and that was too bad. I hope that does not happen [indistinct] eventually.   37:53 GR: Yeah, you know they eventually they do not speak the language which is pretty sad because I think it is, it is good to have a second language. It is actually a ̶  an advantage. And, and because Armenian was my first language I still a lot of times I think in Armenian and I mostly pray in Armenian because that is how I learned to pray you know, but there is and every language has things that are very difficult to translate. It is not the same thing once you translate it you know? So you get the advantage of both really.   38:45 JK: And did you guys both know how to read and write Armenian or just speak?   38:49 MR: Well George did not have that advantage ̶    38:53 GR: We did not have the advantage of an Armenian school here. We never had that.   38:58 MR: They had an Armenian school you know, where they would have somebody come from some organization and, and teach Armenian but you know, I learned the alphabet and I am sure that if I really religiously read frequently I would have retained I have not read. I know the alphabet but I have not really forwarded that at all, you know, but I, I could easily go back and learn and but I speak it fluently and understand it very well.   39:39 JK: And do your children or and your grandchildren do they know Armenian or ̶    39:44 MR: Our ̶  my son is fluent in Armenian and then he was we spoke we had decided that we were going to teach our kids Armenian as their first language. And so we did that faithfully with Gary and then he married ̶    40:01 GR: Well and the Gary he married a first-generation ̶    40:04 MR: And then he married a first-generation girl so he heard Armenian being spoken all the time so he really can, in fact he has even taught himself how to read and write but Vivian can understand some of it but she does not really ̶  you know it is hard when, when like our son was three years old and going on to nursery school then Natalie I mean Vivian was born and you, you start switching to the English I was not able to do it as well.   40:40 GR: Yeah but see Gary's-both of Gary's boys are like they are acolytes they serve on the altar ̶    40:46 MR: Oh yeah we have kept out Armenian traditions.   40:48 GR: And they have stayed close and in fact their younger, their younger one they adopted from Armenia. The, the first one, our first grandson is, is theirs and the other one they went to Armenia and adopted him. He looks just like us you would not tell the difference. [laughs] But it is very interesting and he is ̶  oh he is just great I mean he is ̶    41:17 MR: Seventeen now.   41:18 GR: Yeah soccer player and everything just good now Viv-and Vivian has-Gar-so Gary has two boys and Vivian has a daughter and a son. The daughter just graduated from Boston College last year the son is a junior at Fairfield.   41:38 MR: University.   41:39 GR: So I do not know how far you want to go with this but ̶    41:46 MR: Our daughter became an Orthodontist like her father and so you know we're very proud of our children and grandchildren.   41:58 Yes, I see. So going back to raising your family earlier on ̶  what was it important for you to teach them the Armenian culture like ̶    42:09 MR: Well it was natural.   42:11 JK: Natural.   42:11 MR: It was always very natural.  You know, I mean.   42:14 GR: And like you were, when there was church, we were expected to go, it was not. I mean, they did not say do you want to go to church to today.   42:23 MR: No and, and we raise our children with the church, I mean, we they, they always went to church whenever we had church, and now.   42:34 GR: Like our generation we all sung in the church choir, because you were expected to ̶   42:41 MR: Well, you knew they needed you. [laughs]   42:44 GR: Not it was it was expected and ̶     42:49 MR: And Vivian our daughter, our son married in Armenian and Ar-American and our daughter married and Armenian American as well. So they, have been able to keep more of the Armenian traditions because, you know, it is, it is they are around Armenians a lot, but they are also around non Armenians too. So I do not know, I do not know how to say that.   43:20 GR: Well, and I, I think there is something to be said about if you marry someone that has that you have a lot in common with, there is a lot better chances that that marriage is going to work out. If you are like night and day. You do not really like we can make jokes about each other sometimes. About our fe ̶ some Armenian things and because I mean, she is no different than me. You do not get offended. But if there is a big difference, sometimes they do not understand where you are coming from and you do not understand where they are coming from, you know?   44:05 JK: And how did you, you two meet it and before I get in ̶  before you get into that, do you know you wanted to marry another Armenian or ̶   44:14 MR: Well, it was sort of expected you know, and in our case it worked out but I think that ̶   44:26 GR: Well, we met we met in a very, it was kind of bizarre. I was at Georgetown ̶   44:35 MR: Dental school.   44:36 GR: Yeah in dental school and also in a Navy program.   44:39 MR: Right.    44:40 GR: And I, I served five years in the Navy after my education but anyway because there was the feeling that I always wanted to go to church if it was available. I was going to the when every opportunity I had ̶  I went to the Armenian church in Washington, you know, and at that time, they did not even have a church building. It was in a basement where they had an altar and the priest used to priest used to come every week and so forth. So her brother was in the Navy, and he was stationed in Washington. And so he used to come to church. [laughs] So, so we did not really know each other, meet each other, particularly but the church organist had a party and invited all the younger people. And so I met her brother, and got to know him pretty well and we became pretty good friends. So, one weekend, he said, “Why do not you come and I will show you?” I did not know New York City that well, he said, “Why do not you come to New York City?” And, and he said, “We will go out” and he said, “I will get a couple of dates and you know, and so forth and so on.” So, so we, we took the train, we went to New York, and he said, “Well, I want to go home and clean up before we go out.” So we went to her house, and, and I met her then that was the first time I met her. And so he said, well, I am ready. Let us go. And I said, “You know, I got a stomachache. I think I am going to, I think I am going to stay here and just visit with your family.”    46:27 MR: I was seventeen.    46:29 GR: I wanted to get to know her better.   46:31 MR: And George is six and a half years older than me. And so I was only seventeen and a freshman in college. And so Harry, my brother did not have any thoughts even [laughs] see to me. How does this kid's sister five years or six years is a lot a big difference at that stage in your life. And but we got to know each other and he would ̶   46:59 Yeah, we dated on and off for four years till you finished college.   47:03 Well he did not come frequently. So if he came once in the summer, then he had asked me to hold New Year's Eve for them or something, you know.   47:13 GR: So then I did my internship in the Navy. And so they told me that they would, they would send me to California, you know, to the Naval Hospital there. And one of my friends was going to go to the Naval Hospital in Philadelphia. So I, I wanted to be where I could get to see her. So we got the Navy to agree to let me take his slot in Philadelphia and he would go to California.   47:49 JK: Oh my goodness.   47:50 MR: You were crazy [laughs] I would have gone to California.   47:58 GR: Anyway, that, that was the way we met. And it was not it was not arranged or anything like that, like our parents.    48:04 MR: No. And it was not. I mean, I was determined to finish college. So, I mean, that was four years that we were just seeing each other occasionally, but we ̶   48:16 GR: Yeah but I was in the Navy then we got married.    48:21 MR: And then when he got his internship in Philadelphia, and he was coming frequently to the house and you know, then we really got much more serious.   48:32 GR: Okay, let us let her go on with the questions.   48:34 JK: Oh yeah ̶  and so going back to Armenian culture. What do you think is the most important things about Armenia that really make us strong and what helped Armenian people survive?   48:51 GR: I think the cul ̶  well, I think that is an easy one. I think the culture is very, very much focused around the church and the traditions.   49:00 MR: And family, and family.   49:03 GR: Family and the traditions of the church, you know. And I know they get ̶  where I am from, I have some accounts of what life was like when in my father's village, it was pretty much oriented around, around their, around the church and, and the traditions of the church and so forth in the way they did holidays and so forth. And I would say probably, again, the church has always been the glue of keeping the Armenian people together.   49:41 MR: You have to understand that we did not have TV or anything, and their entertainment was getting together with each other and in nice weather, it would be even in New York City, a big city, we would go to Van Cortlandt Park, and have picnics, you know, occasionally not as frequently as George did here in Binghamton. But ̶   50:03 GR: Well they did, they did a lot of things like where the parents would come together, the kids would get up and say poems or they would sing, and you know, it was very much family-oriented. And so I guess maybe does that answer your question?   50:21 JK: Yes, of course. And what about the do you think the language and the homeland are just as important as the church or a little less?   50:31 MR: Now? You mean now?    50:33 JK: Yeah.   50:34 GR: You mean, Armenia now? All right. I think you have to understand that Armenia was under Soviet rule for forty years. And in this in the communists, outlawed churches, I mean, they closed all the churches down. They made them museums. The Armenian Church survived because they have been in Etchmiadzin for, for ̶   51:03 MR: Many centuries since seven hundred or six hundred.   51:06 GR: So, so the, the Russians sort of took an attitude, well, we are not going to, we are not going to help you, we are not going to do anything to help you. But we will not do anything to hurt you as long as you stay in line, you know, if you do anything against us, we will get rid of you. So, so Etchmiadzin was able to survive very well. And because we went there in (19)72, when it was under Soviet when it was Soviet Armenia, and we asked, my host was another doctor, who was a member of the Russian politburo, the communist politburo, you know, so we said, well, we would like to meet the [indistinct]. And he knew the [indistinct]. He said, I do not go to church. But he said, I will take you there and so forth. So as a result of that, I think religion got very much diluted. I do not think that there is the well there still is they are still very devoted to their churches, but ̶   52:17 MR: Well not ̶  they are devoted to the churches, but it is just like in ̶   52:23 GR: But maybe it is not as intense as it was.   52:27 JK: And have you ever been to the villages that your parents grew up in?   52:32 MR: No, unfortunately, we, we only went to Armenia and Lebanon. We tried when our kids were young when they were ten and, and eight or something like that. We went to Beirut, Lebanon ̶   52:48 GR: Well we went to Istanbul first ̶   52:50 MR: Where yeah where ̶   52:51 GR: Because her father was in the wrong business. And he was doing business there. You know that? Yeah. And then from Istanbul, we went to Beirut, because Beirut was kind of the Armenian. I think ̶   53:03 MR: Where they all ̶  many of them had settled. Yeah. And where my parents got married from, you know, and so we did that. And then we went to Armenia for a few days. And it was, as George said, it was under Soviet rule. So ̶     53:20 GR: Yeah, I had an invitation to lecture in their, at their medical school. So it was, you know, it was sanctioned by the government, but you always had to, had to be with somebody, you would not go off on your own. And, in fact, this is a funny story. We stayed in the hotel Armenia, and they had a Russian person on every floor. They spoke Armenian very well. But they had a Russian woman usually. And we were going out with some friends and they said, “Well, you know, you can leave the kids.” They were like ten and twelve there.   54:00 MR: We would never do it today but we did it then.   54:03 GR: Yeah you can leave and we will look after them. So, we, we came back. And we said to her, well, you know, how di ̶  how were the children's? Awful! [laughs] We said what happened, you know, apparently, all the rooms were bugged. You know, so they heard all this jusch-jusch-jusch up in the ceiling. So Gary gets on a chair and he gets pfffftttt [laughs] they did not take that too kindly.   54:37 JK: Oh my goodness that is amazing wow.    54:40 GR: So they were under a very totalitarian regime for forty years and it affected everything you know, I mean, that youth grew up in that environment so.   54:53 MR: As far as the language is concerned, there is Eastern dialect and in the Armenian language in Russia they now they speak the eastern dialect. And we ̶     55:07 GR: Speak Western ̶     55:08 MR: Speak the western dialect it is very difficult for those of us who speak the Western dialect like to really understand a lot of the words that so we do not really communicate that well.   55:21 GR: And the church or courses neither read has what they call[indistinct] ̶  It has its own language.   55:27 MR: The old language, the old ̶   55:28 GR: Which even we do not understand.   55:31 MR: Well, we do now because, you know, go to church frequently, but ̶   55:36 GR: Excuse me.   55:38 JK: Okay. And just one more question. How would you guys identify yourself as Armenian American or American Armenian?   55:47 MR & GR: American-Armenian.   55:49 MR: For sure. We are American of Armenian descent. We are very proud of our American and Armenian heritage, you know.   56:01 GR: You know, it is Armenian, it is our heritage, and we hope that our kids will remember their heritage. I mean, we are all Americans, of course, and that is our primary loyalty.   56:11 MR: And our grandchildren all of them, all four of them are proud of their Armenian heritage but, you know, I do not know whether how much of this will linger on in future generations ̶   56:23 GR: I do not think they will ever lose the taste for the foods.   56:26 MR: Yeah, that is for sure.   56:29 JK: Yes, they are the best.   56:30 MR: But they are all proud of their heritage.   56:33 GR: And we are.   56:36 JK: Of course. And is there anything else you would like to add to this interview or anything he would want to mention?   56:44 GR: What is that Marion?   56:44 MR: Is there anything else that you would like to mention or for this interview? She is almost through.   56:51 GR: Well, I think that probably as a whole just as, as our parents, you know, came here with actually no money. No, they did not know the language and everything. But they had the drive to get ahead. And I think they put that into their kids because most of the kids have, have, you know, been become very successful in American society, as you know, from all the I mean, we have a lot of Armenians in, in very important places in this country. So I think that our desire is that you know, our, our kids keep that same initiative.   57:42 JK: Yes.   57:44 MR: And-and instill the love of education in their children and you know ̶   57:51 GR: To try, to try to do better, you know, try to do your best and try to do better and, and not, not rely on government to take care of us. We want to take care of ourselves, you know, so.   58:09 JK: Of course. All right. Well, thank you so much.    58:12 MR: You are very welcome.   (End of Interview) Keywords Armenians; Armenian church; Family; Language; Genocide; Culture; Assimilation Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Marion and Dr. George Rejebian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fbbd2b25f22b1619078049700acde8d2.mp3 31b8f68951ba677d60d82558db7c8533 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Armenian Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia.  The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia.   Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright.  Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> Language A language of the resource English Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2/15/2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Jacqueline Kachadourian Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Mark Kachadourian Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Digital Format Audio Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 20:47 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Armenian Oral History Project Interview with: Mark Kachadourian Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian Transcriber: Aynur de Rouen Date of interview: 14 February 2019 Interview Setting: Vestal, NY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:02 JK: My name is Jacqueline Kachadourian and I am interviewing for the Armenian Oral History Project for Binghamton University. Today is February 14 2019. I am interviewing Mark Kachadourian. What is your name? And where are you from? 00:25 MK: My name is Mark Kachadourian and I am from Vestal, New York. 00:34 JK: Tell us about your parents. What are they? Are they Armenian? Both Armenian? 00:45 MK: Yes, my both my parents are both Armenian. Um, my father's name is Henry Kachadourian and, and my mother's maiden name is Victoria Kerbeckian. 01:02 JK: And where are they from? 01:06 MK: My dad was born here in Binghamton, New York. And my mom was born in ̶ when she was younger, she grew up in Queens, New York um, and later moved to Philadelphia, at a young age. 01:28 JK: On both sides of your family or their median in both your parents’ side? 01:34 MK: Yes. Both their parents were Armenian as well. 01:41 JK: And where are they from? 01:44 MK: That, um, I have written down, I do not have it off the top of my head. 01:52 JK: Are they from Armenia? Or ̶ are from the United States? 02:02 MK: No, they were born, um, I a portion of what is known today is Turkey and part of it and the other is in Armenia. So as to specific locations I have written down I do not have it with me here. 02:22 JK: And why is the ̶ do you know what year they left Armenia? 02:29 MK: They left during the Turkish massacre. A number of their ̶ they escaped. But a lot of their family members were killed. So they were the ones that were able to escape. 02:44 JK: Do you recall any stories from that? 02:50 MK: Yes, I remember. My great grandmother, um escaped with my grandmother. When my grandmother was a baby, and there was a family that hit my grandmother in the garbage can so the Turks will not be able to find her. And then from my dad's side, my grandfather escaped by swimming, you know, in a river to escape ̶ being killed from the Turks. I remember him telling me those stories. 03:31 JK: From your father from your grandfather telling you 03:35 MK: From my grandfather telling me. 03:38 JK: So he was there, he personally escaped. 03:41 MK: Yes. 03:44 JK: And do you know or remember how they came to America? 03:48 MK: No, I think my grandmother and ̶ get up got this written down. And, you know, as I get older, my memory is not as good as it used to be. But I have got it written down. And I do not have that literature in front of me. But, um, my grandmother on my mom's side, it's my recollection, she came through Cuba, and, um, and my recollection with my grandmother on my father's side. She may have camped through Montreal, Canada, 04:28 JK: And ended up ̶ from Binghamton or other places in the United States. 04:35 MK: She may have wound up in the New England area and met my grandfather who I think was in this area. And so that was how they happened to settled in this area. But I am not ̶ Again, I have got it written down but that is my recollection off the top of my head. 04:55 JK: Did they tell you any other stories about living in Armenia before the genocide? 05:09 MK: You know, just to my great grandmother that all her children were killed except my grandmother. Um, and that's all I could remember, you know, as a child. 05:26 JK: Did they tell you like, before what it was like in Armenia? 05:33 MK: No, I, you know, it is not a subject I think they, you know, it was like it was a tragedy for them. So with most people, they, um, you know, I guess it is like soldiers that go to war, they just, you know, they come back and, you know, they really try to move on with their lives. And, you know, and do not dwell on the past. And, you know, it was a terrible time and a terrible experience, which, you know, they did not talk much about. 06:06 JK: Then, did they ever get returned back to Armenia? 06:10 MK: No. I do not ̶ Yes, I think my grandfather and I um, I cannot recollect you're going to have to talk to other members of my family. I know. My aunts and my aunt and uncle from my father's side, um, went to Armenia recently and I am not sure if they went back around in the mid to late (19)70s and may have taken my grandparents some um, that I do not have first-hand knowledge of this far as my mom's side. I do not think they ever went back, no. 06:59 JK: Okay, so going through your childhood, did you ever go to Armenian language school or learn Armenian or Bible school? 07:09 MK: Um, the church we went to had Sunday school which I attended and did have language school again you know, it is a number of years ago, but Armenian was the first language we spoke before actually before we spoke English my grandparents or great grandparents you know, they spoke Armenian and you know we were taught Armenian and then we were able to communicate with them and Armenian. 07:41 JK: Can you read and write Armenian? 07:43 MK: No, I cannot read and write Armenian but I could speak it and understand it. 07:51 JK: [inaudible] 07:51 MK: Pretty much so yes, you know, I ̶ it is ̶ of course English is my another language, but I could get I know enough to get by. 08:03 JK: And, did you have any siblings growing up? 08:08 MK: Yes, I did have one sister growing up. 08:11 JK: And what is her name? And how old is she? 08:15 MK: Um, her name is Corrine. And, um, I do not think I am at liberty to give her age. 08:24 JK: What's the age difference between you two? 08:31 MK: Um, I think it is exactly eleven months. 08:37 JK: And did she learn Armenian too? Or ̶ 08:40 MK: Yes, she, you know, along with me. We both speak and understand it. And however again, we do not write or read. I mean, it is ̶ 08:53 JK: And when you were a kid, where did you grow up? 09:00 MK: As a child ̶ they grew up ̶ Originally I was born in Binghamton and stayed in the Binghamton area until I was about maybe three or four and then I attended first kindergarten in Stamford, Connecticut. And then I attended first grade in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. And then we move to back to Binghamton and then attended public schools and graduated high school in Binghamton, New York. 09:39 JK: Do you recall the Armenian communities in Connecticut or Philadelphia? 09:46 MK: I do recall Armenian communities in Philadelphia, vaguely but not in Connecticut. I was really too young to remember that. 10:00 JK: Was it bigger than the community in Binghamton today? 10:05 MK: Yes, it was. You know, Philadelphia is a metropolitan area. So of course, they had larger Armenian community and the community was very active in the church. And now and I remember attending church and Easter's, Easter Sunday, everybody would be dressed up. Um, so yeah, I do remember going to church in Philadelphia, 10:33 JK: Did you attend church regularly, as a kid? 10:38 MK: As a child, growing up, I would say yes. 10:44 JK: And when you came back to Binghamton, was there a big Armenian community or was it significantly smaller? 10:54 MK: It was significantly smaller than Philadelphia, but there was an Armenian community. However, as I got older, the, um, the parishioners of the church got older, and eventually many of them passed away and, um and a lot of the younger people moved away. So the church attendance steadily declined. And, um, you know, as a result of the older parishioners passing away and the younger ones moving away, 11:26 JK: And growing up, did you have any Armenian friends over there, mostly non Armenian? 11:36 MK: Um, I had a couple of Armenian friends but mostly non Armenian, you know. 11:43 JK: And the non-Armenians knew about Armenia or anything? 11:48 MK: Yes, they were. Yes. They were very aware of it. And, you know, um, yes, they were. 11:59 JK: So when you attended high school in Binghamton, did they ̶ was there a lot of Armenians in the school or no? 12:08 MK: No, I think there was one or two others, but no, that was it. 12:14 JK: And would you hang out with them and in school or only in church? 12:19 MK: Mostly at church. 12:28 JK: And so, did you ever attend any camps that would relate to the Armenian community? Or was it just Sunday school and church? 12:42 MK: Just Sunday school and church. However, growing up, we did attend, um, you know, the Armenian community in Philadelphia would have throughout the years, New Year's Eve dance either in Philadelphia or Atlantic City. Growing up for you know, either one, we were in junior high score high school, we would attend those dances with my parents. 13:11 JK: And they had a bigger Armenian community. Those ̶ 13:15 MK: Yeah, those dances drew or get togethers drew from the communities of North Jersey, and Philadelphia in the New York City area. So they were well attended and often sold out. 13:32 JK: Did they ever have any events like that in the Binghamton area? 13:38 MK: Not really, I mean, there were a few years where they try to have Armenian dances and, you know, initially there was a lot of enthusiasm, but, um, but later on, it was hard to keep it going and getting heavy attendance. So they eventually, you know, canceled those. But growing up after high school and going into college, they had some dances in North Jersey or get togethers in North Jersey, where young professionals or young Armenians would get together, there will be dances or we can get togethers, which I attended a few times. 14:21 JK: And what were some consistent cultural themes within the Armenian community? When you were growing up, what type of food or events ̶ 14:37 MK: Um, types of food you know, there were different types of food, ethnic foods. The most common I guess, that the general public is aware of is like pilav or shish kabobs and often look forward to those and, um, and something called lahmacun which is an Armenian type pizza, but instead of cheese and tomato sauce, it would be made with pink something along the lines of ground meat on a flat breath. And also, you know, from a cultural standpoint, you know, we were, I do not know it was in, I do not know if it was instilled in us but I always believe that due to the sacrifices that our grandparents or great grandparents went through, that it was important to keep the Armenian culture alive. And, you know, as part of that, you know, my goal was to marry an Armenian and have Armenian children. 15:41 JK: So it was important for you to marry in Armenian? 15:45 MK: Yes. 15:46 JK: Was that instilled by your parents, or you? 15:50 MK: I think I do not think they ever outright came out and said that, but I just, you know, having experienced or having seen what my net seen, but having been told what my ancestors at sacrifice, I think it was the least I could do to preserve our culture. 16:15 JK: Have you ever traveled to Armenia or Turkey? 16:18 MK: No. 16:19 JK: Would you ever plan to go to Armenia? 16:23 MK: I am not sure I, you know, I have thought about it. No, I, I am not sure. I had have thought about it, but I am not sure. 16:41 JK: Do you think there is differences between the Armenians who came to America and the people that are means stayed in Armenia? 16:51 MK: Oh, um, that I do not have the knowledge to comment on that. I do not, I do not. I mean, America's to me is the greatest country in the world. And we were very fortunate to be living in this country. And but I cannot I do not have enough knowledge or first-hand knowledge to come make, you know, to form an opinion on it. 17:14 JK: And what would you say you identify as your home? And ̶ 17:21 MK: I am American first. And I consider America my homeland. And, you know, but I have got Armenian heritage. So ̶ 17:33 JK: Do you attend church regularly today? 17:36 MK: I try to, because of our population decrease? You know, the church, we do not have regular services. So we do have visiting priest and, um, and I tried to attend when, when there are services. 17:57 JK: And how would you define Armenia or to be Armenian? 18:04 MK: To be Armenian is to be part of a culture that has suffered in its history, but has made great progress and contributed to the various countries that Armenians have settled in, for example, I will just try to go through some examples that I am aware of is like their Armenians who have settled in France. And one of those is Alain Prost [Alain Marie Pascal Prost], who is a world championship Formula One driver who has won CIF, multiple Formula One championships, and he is from Armenian heritage. And so he was able to go to a different country and succeed. Another one is, if you go down the list like Kirk Kerkorian, former owner, founder MGM Grand casinos, and theaters, and he was very successful in the business world, and he came to the United States and settled you know, and there are athletes as well, you know, former baseball players, tennis players, such as Andre Agassi, who were able to succeed in in the new homelands that they settled in. 19:22 JK: Then, what do you think is important to the Armenian culture, the language the church? What do you think? 19:31 MK: I think it is their faith in the church. You know, I think it is their faith and their beliefs and, you know, and, and I think their beliefs are driving force in the way they live their daily lives. And as a result, I think you will see many results and um, Armenians being driven to succeed. So in both the business world and, and I think they also contribute to the community as well. Another one of those was Alex Manoogian, who's whose family has given back to the Armenian community and he was very successful in the business world. And I think their faith drives them and it's a great contributor is it leads to their success and other facets of their lives. 20:31 JK: Is there anything else you want to add? 20:37 MK: No, I cannot think of anything else. At this point. I think you covered everything pretty well. Okay. 20:43 JK: Thank you. 20:45 MK: You are welcome. Have a good day. (End of Interview) Keywords Armenian; Armenia; Armenians; Turkey; Binghamton; Philadelphia; Family; Armenian community; Armenian Church; Dances; Food; Culture. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Mark Kachadourian https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3da53d4495bf65739fc0873a6d356e9f.jpeg ca3dcb70061d7047ca44d038b2a0628d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9b61ce827dd22b1266a24478fab5afea.MP3 f858b5dcb62a58c33231ad307ac1bb0b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Kurdish Oral History Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D. Description An account of the resource In 2011, Binghamton University Libraries received the donation of the Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library and Museum Collection. The acquisition opened a dialog with the local Kurdish community in Binghamton, N.Y., which led to the creation of the Kurdish Oral History Project. These interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Kurdish culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Kurdistan. This growing collection holds interviews in English and/or Kurdish with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Kurdistan. The interviewees share remarkable stories of their migration, their persecution in Kurdistan, the resilience of their Kurdish identity in assimilating into the host culture, and the ties they maintain with their homeland in diaspora.<a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/sustain"></a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Relation A related resource <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a> <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/76">Vera Beaudin Saeedpour Kurdish Library & Museum Collection Finding Aid</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 12 April 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Aynur De Rouen Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Midya Khudur Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 48:30 minutes Digital Publisher Binghamton University Biographical Text Midya was born in Mosul and lived there until 2002, before the fall of Saddam Hussein. She then moved with her family to Duhok and has been living there ever since. She came to the United States in the fall of 2018 to study at Binghamton University and get her Master's degree. Keywords Childhood; Mosul; Duhok; Kurdistan; Kurdish Diaspora; Kurdish Culture; Language; Kurdish Dialects; 2003 Iraq War; Saddam Hussein Language English Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Kurdish Oral History Project Interview with: Midya Khudur Interviewed by: Aynur DeRouen Transcriber: Joseph Seif Date of interview: 12 April 2019 Interview Setting: Binghamton University -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 0:02 AD: We are recording. So today is. We are good. Today is April 12, 2019 and we are here uh talk to Midya. Midya for the record can you give us your full name? 0:22 MK: Yeah, my name is Midya Khudur, um. 0:26 AD: And can you briefly tell us where you are from, and since you are so young, you would not mind telling us when you were born and where? 0:38 MK: So, I am from the Kurdistan region of Iraq, but I was born in 1992. I first born, I was born in Mosul and then my family went to Duhok to the northern part of Iraq in 2002 before the fall of Saddam. And I stayed there until now, [mumbles] until I come to the States pursuing my master degree. 1:01 AD: Okay, so, eh, so can you tell us a little bit about your family? Like how many siblings do you have, what your father does, what your mother does? You know that kind of information. 1:17 MK: Okay, so my dad is an engineer, my mom she could finish high-institute school herself teaching, but then she could not work because like she got married [laughs] and then yeah. We are, we are four daughters and one brother. I am in the middle. Two of them, my two sisters who are older than me, are both married and having kids, and the two of them that are younger than me, they are not. They are still students, they are studying, yeah. And currently live in Duhok. Yeah. 1:52 AD: So, uh, your father works in Duhok? 1:57 MK: Yeah. 1:58 AD: And what kind of engineer? 2:00 MK: He is a Mechanical Engineer. Yeah. 2:02 AD: Okay, so, eh. You said you were born in Mosul and then moved to Duhok area. So do you remember, do you have any memory of uh, Mosul? 2:15 MK: So, I was nine year when I moved from Mosul, but I remember from it is my grandfather’s house and our house, the playground, my cousins, because it was like my grandfather’s house like the biggest one and then small houses besides it they were all like for who else and so me and I mean my cousins were always playing there. I always loved his garden, um, the food that we were cooking there, everything. I remember sometime uh, the school as well, because I was there for like, I stayed there until fifth grade for primary school, so I remember, yeah, a little bit about the school as well. Yeah. 2:57 AD: So, uh did you live in a. What kind of uh area? Or was it like this strict like mostly Kurdish people lived, or people lived from different background in the same area? I was trying to get the sense. 3:16 MK: Yeah, I think it was like a mixed area, because we were living in the center of Mosul, so I do not really, I do not really know how like the distribution of people back then, but I remember that we have Arab and other ethnicity group uh neighbors, yeah. 3:35 AD: So, were you like interacting with them? With the neighbors? 3:39 MK: Um, not that much, because I had my cousins, they all were my age, so I did not need to have like extra friendship. Yeah. 3:48 AD: So, you were basically hanging out with your cousins. 3:51 MK: Yeah true. 3:52 AD: So, how about your family, your parents, grandparents, do you remember that they were interacting with other neighbors? 4:02 MK: Yeah, I believe so, because usually like my father and uh my aunt, usually they talk about their memories at the university some of their neighbors. So yeah they have, they have their group of friends and so on. But because like we had a lot of relative there in Mosul, like all my uncles, so I think like most of our social communication things it was through that. With my uncles and relatives. Yeah. 4:34 AD: So, did your extended family also moved to Duhok area? 4:40 MK: Well they moved but I think we were almost the first one who moved? The moved after the fall of Saddam, after 2003 after situation got bad, in Mosul, yeah they moved to Duhok. Yeah. 4:52 AD: Okay. So, you do not have any family left in Mosul? 4:56 MK: No, no. 4:57 AD: So, all Duhok. 4:58 MK: Yeah. 4:59 AD: So, what did you think about Duhok when you moved there? 5:04 MK: Yeah so, so when I first moved from Mosul to Duhok, I was thinking yay it is cool, I am going to speak my language, with like my neighbors and friends and so on and so on. But then when I moved to Duhok I discovered that my accent is different from them. [laughs] Which is like another trouble. Because like when I was in Mosul, all students or my friends they would say, “she is Kurdish, she is speaking in a weird way”. And then when I came to Duhok they were saying “you speaking almost Arabic”, because I was influenced by the Arabic language so I present a lot of Arabic words in my language. But then it was strange for me like the biggest challenge that I always had is the language, because I speak a dialect inside the house and then, when I was a kid, I was speaking another language outside, which was Arabic. And then when I moved to Duhok, I like tried to speak their dialect and the other challenge I was studying in another dialect, which was like disarani [Kurdish language dialect] one. 6:00 AD: Yeah. 6:01 MK: So, basically, I was dealing with three dialects in my daily life. [laughs] 6:06 AD: Wow! 6:07 MK: Yeah. 6:07 AD: So, uh Mosul, you went to, like when you went to primary school, it was like the language was Arabic? I take it? 6:15 MK: Yeah true. Yeah, yeah true. 6:17 AD: So, you are fluent in Arabic? 6:20 MK: Uh, yeah, I was nine years when I came to Duhok. I kind of lost it. I still I could uh, read it and write it, but when communication, I kind of lost it at some point, but then I uh a lot of Arabs displaced and came to Duhok, so I had a lot of Arab friends uh short after I coming to Duhok, so that is how I could restore my language, the Arabic language fluency when it comes to talking. 6:50 AD: I see. 6:51 MK: Yeah. 6:52 AD: So, and is this language thing still going on? You speak different dialect at home, different at school, different on the street? 7:00 MK: Yeah. 7:00 AD: Still continuing? 7:02 MK: It is always like that. Yeah at home it is a dialect, and then with friends another dialect, and then with Arabs another language, and then with my English colleague another language. So I always have that struggle of language, yeah. 7:16 AD: So, did you correct your accent for them? Or stick to your accent? 7:22 MK: No, I correct my accent, but the thing is when I am with like close friends or like. So now I mean the formation of my language is a mix of Arabic, English and Kurdish, so like the person, I mean the person that I feel comfortable with, he should know all three languages so that understand me. Because I cannot be only restricted to one language, I cannot express myself that way. 7:46 AD: Yeah. 7:47 MK: Yeah. 7:47 AD: Well, that’s good though, right? It’s different. 7:51 MK: It is suffering. [laughs] I mean people, people they say it is good, especially if you write about those challenges, but it is kind of a suffering when it comes to, when you want to express yourself or when you want to belong to something. Yeah. 8:07 AD: Yeah. 8:07 MK: Yeah. 8:08 AD: So, 2002, uh how was Duhok? Like environment wise? Like when you move there? How was it? 8:18 MK: So, comparing to Mosul, Duhok the weather was nicer, we were having a lot of fruits there. [laughs] We were not having that much fruit, but I mean as an environment and as a city it was nice. I was not really developed back then, but it was a nice one. I liked it. Yeah. 8:33 AD: You liked it. 8:34 MK: Yeah. 8:36 AD: So, uh, do you remember when things were happening? Like, like the Saddam was missing, then they found him, they, you know. I mean you were very you ng, obviously, but do you remember? Because it was a big event– 8:57 MK: Yeah, yeah true. 8:58 AD: –And then how he was. 9:01 MK: Yeah, of course I remember. So when first the U.S. came to Iraq, we Kurds, we were scared, as though we were living in the [inaudible] rural part but, a lot of us got, I mean we went to villages to more secured area because we were worried. And we all like watching news, what will happen, and I remember one day um, so we went to a village. We stayed in a school with my other relatives it was a more secured area to stay. And once I remember, we woke up in the morning and the sky and the weather was, was so, um, uh, I do not know, um. 9:42 AD: Was it foggy? 9:43 MK: Yeah it was foggy. 9:44 AD: Okay. 9:44 MK: And people were so sacred, they thought it is chemical, uh– 9:50 AD: Yeah. 9:50 MK: Yeah from, they thought that they are like chemicals from Saddam, like he’s throwing on us again and we all like put this uh thing on our mouth to cover it and in our nose covered– 9:41 AD: So that is the collective memory right there. 9:43 MK: [laughs] You think so? Yeah, so I remember everyone was so scared until we discovered no it is just the weather, it is nothing to do with the chemicals. Yeah, but then like after that, when Saddam um, when American could take over Baghdad and so on, when uh we moved back to Duhok and then, and then like everyone was watching news, yeah I remember the town when Saddam got arrest. I remember the time when he was in the court and the other Ba’ath regime people and uh there were getting asked by the court uh, about their crimes and so on. Yeah I remember it very well yeah. 10:50 AD: Yeah, but you did not really live through the uh, you know like when the– 10:59 MK: Yeah. 10:59 AD: –Chemical weapon, like the Halabja, Anfal, all that. But your parents have the memory of those incidences. 11:06 MK: Yeah, I did not really live in that part, but the threat that Saddam have, to everyone even the Arab cities in Iraq. It is so much so, I remember when I was a kid, I was always threatened by my mom. Like to be careful when I speak. I mean because I remember, um I remember when I was a kid, I used to act as a broadcasting person and like doing news and talking about Saddam, inside the house and my mom would tell me “Midya how to shut up, what if one of his, his like troops are here or one of the police are here, he will arrest us because of you” so I always learn to be careful. And I also remember once in the school, so usually when it is Saddam’s birthday or whatever, so we all we have to yell at the highest frequency on our voice that uh “long life Saddam” so, and I needed to say it because like my, because my manager she was looking at me. It was one of the most disgracing moments in my life. [laughs] 12:10 AD: Yeah. 12:11 MK: Because, you were saying “long life Saddam” and so uh– 12:15 AD: How did you say that? Where you saying in Arabic or in Kurdish? 12:18 MK: Yeah in Arabic because like when it is his birthday, we needed to celebrate at the schools and everywhere, so like we would be like– 12:25 AD: What is the sentence? Tell me in Arabic. 12:28 MK: Uh [Arabic], something like that, yeah, yeah so, yeah so it’s like how it was that we all students we will march in the school and we would say that word, yeah. Yeah. 12:43 AD: Yeah that is [laughter] so you, you, there was like the fear was like imbedded in you, even though you did not really– 12:52 MK: True, true, yeah. 12:53 AD: You go through all that, uh, so uh, so which grade where you in when you were in Mosul? Or like Middle School? 13:03 MK: No– 13:03 AD: Or still elementary? 13:05 MK: Yeah elementary, I was in fourth grade, so I was like nine years old. 13:08 AD: Oh, nine years– 13:09 MK: Yeah. 13:09 AD: Okay, so uh and where did you go to university? In Duhok? 13:14 MK: Yeah, yeah. 13:15 AD: So, you did not go to Erbil. 13:17 MK: No, no I stayed in Duhok, yeah. 13:19 AD: Okay, so uh and every– But there were still some Arabic people in Duhok area, right? It was not just complete Kurdish? 13:30 MK: Yeah true, true. Yeah there were Arabic back then. And after the fall of Saddam, yeah, a lot of Arabs came and make it to live in Duhok. 13:44 AD: Duhok area. So uh, so where you interacting with those people or your family you know did you have any in your neighborhood? 13:53 MK: I do not remember exactly, no, in my neighborhood we do not have it but yeah we interacting, because there were student with us, uh, they were working with us, so, yeah I mean from that, yeah. And my dad had his like university time friends sometimes they would come, stay, tour in the area, yeah. 14:12 AD: I see, so uh, like how was the like the life growing up? Like what did you celebrate, what did you, you know like do like with your family or with your friends, like what were the major things. Like I do not want to give you ideas, but like for example like either religious holidays, or Kurdish holidays, like what were the things that you were? 14:45 MK: So, I am considered from the generation the lucky ones because at my time we could have our autonomous government, so we were reading in my language, celebrating Newroz, wearing our cloths. So, so I mean I do not really share any bad memory, just like my parents, so almost my memories they were good one. So like we were celebrating uh, our Eids, our, the Muslim feast, we were celebrating uh, Newroz, Yezidi’s one, Assyrian’s one. Uh and the way it was brought up, it was really easy for me because I was mostly going to school to university or not really having those high conflicts of politics in the time that I grow up. Yeah. 15:38 MK and AD: Yeah. 15:38 AD: But uh, how about your parents, like were they still like cautious even though they lived in a safer environment things like little settle down. You know what I mean. 15:54 AD: How-how do you know, uh, view that? Like ̶ 15:59 MK: Actually, after the fall of Saddam, no. I mean almost all the Kurds, I think even Arabs who did not have that fear of Saddam any long. So we were life you are having a peaceful mind when it comes to Saddam and what he might able to do for us. So, no we did not have that fear, no, yeah. 16:20 AD: Yeah, so, uh, that is a good thing, because that lasted for a long time for several generations– 16:31 MK: True. 16:31 AD: –We have been interviewing like, what a big toll– 16:35 MK: True, yeah. 16:37 AD: –And their lives. Um, so then you wanted to come here. 16:44 MK: Yeah. 16:44 AD: To study? 16:45 MK: Yeah, true. 16:46 AD: Why? 16:46 MK: So, we are now in a developing stage and um, so I mean, true we could have our own autonomy and so on, but still we have other social things that we have to reconstruct to have a strong society, territory whatever, and education is one of them. Uh, I always wanted to have like a time of my life outside Kurdistan, getting exposed to other people, other environment and especially to other, a higher, a higher education, yeah. So that is how I could made it into here. Uh, I applied for a scholarship and I got accepted, and um, I also wanted that because now, because now the environment is getting so challenging when it comes to work, so it is like you are going to find everyone is trying to have Master. At the time when someone was having Master Degree, then that person would really have a good job, but now no, no longer matter. So now, everyone is trying to have a Master. Everyone is mastering in English language, so it is a very challenging environment right now. Plus when I.S.I.S. [Islamic State in Iraq and Syria] came to Iraq, it effected our economy. So much, so now, I mean, my generation we all like struggling to find a work and we are all struggling to improve ourselves. To have the best out of it. So, yeah. 18:15 AD: Mhm, okay, so. What did you think about this society when you came here? It is like, did you find it different, did you find it similar? Like what is your take on like. Did you first of all, did you directly come to Binghamton area? Or did you go somewhere else first, then came here? How did it work out? 18:40 MK: Do one of the things that the scholarship provide, is that you have one month of pre-academic course somewhere else. It was in Syracuse, which was almost the same as Binghamton. I was with other international students and then I came to here. The society is absolutely different um– 18:58 AD:In what regard? 19:00 MK: So, the amount of homeless people that are seen around the city is kind for shocked me. I did not expect that. Uh, I did not know that women and men get paid differently in the State, I was expecting something better. I did not know the conflict between people of color and white people. Plus, um, one of the struggles that I always have here is that the culture, because you know, we are from a very tense culture that we care about and, so coming people are so individualistic it is kind of, like it was surprising for me. At the same time, I am of course, I am impressed by the creative work that people here are doing how they impressing your knowledge, investing in it, hearing your voice. Um, I come here. I was, my, so my bachelor’s degree was English Language and Literature, I come here for comparative literature, I could never imagine that one day I am going to work in Kurdish Studies and now I am interested in that. If I was in Iraq I would not do it, because basically our education is so much like restricted, this the A.B.C.D. of your department, here no, you have more choices to develop it, so, it is something very interesting and, yeah I love it. I love it when it comes to the academic wise. 20:19 AD: Yeah, education wise. So did you get to meet with Kurdish people in this area? 20:26 MK: Yeah surprisingly, there is a high, uh, number of Kurdish community here, so. Yeah, the first time I come to Binghamton, a Kurdish driver took me to my place [laughs] that was– 20:38 AD: Did you know he was Kurdish? How did you find out he is Kurdish? 20:43 MK: I actually knew because, there was an Iraqi friend here, so that is how I could know about Binghamton and she like, I stayed with her for a half year. She told me there is a Kurdish driver, he said when you come I will take her to home. So it was nice, yeah. The first thing, he was the first, Kurdish person that I knew here, and then, I met with other students, yeah. And now I am staying in a house that is owned by a Kurdish landlord, yeah [laughs] the area, there are a lot of Kurds around. [laughs] 21:17 AD: Yeah, that is nice, right? 21:19 MK: Yeah, yeah. 21:20 AD: Yeah so, uh, do you uh, join like activities with them? Like how do you interact with the Kurd? I know that you are a student, but do you interact with them? If so how? 21:36 MK: Yeah, so my interaction, because like I have limited time, but, um, they helped me a lot when I was doing, when I moved from my house with other one, they invite me to their house. So there is one Kurdish family that I am in a close connection with them, I usually go there on weekends, or like, I mean like once or twice per month, having dinner or so. Yeah with them. 22:01 AD: That is nice, who are they? 22:04 MK: They are actually the owner of the building that I live in, yeah. Uh. AD: The name? I do not think I know. 22:12 MK: Ekrem? 22:13 AD: Ekrem! 22:14 MK: Yeah, yeah. 22:15 AD: No, I do not think I know. 22:17 MK: Yeah, uhm. 22:18 AD: So when did he come? 22:21 MK: He came in the 90s with, yeah with the whole I mean the Kurdish community- 22:30 AD: So (19)96 area– 22:32 MK: I think so. 22:33 AD: Like a lot of them came during 1996. 22:35 MK: Yeah, I think so, yeah. 22:36 AD: Okay so he came during that time– 22:37 MK: Yeah. 22:37 AD: –I do not think I uh, I interview with him. So maybe you can put me in touch with him. [laughter] So, uh, so you just, so you basically interact with him than the others. 22:52 MK: I interact with him and his family, there is a Kurdish student I interact with him and his family as well. 22:59 AD: Kurdish student, like, like you from Kurdistan, or? 23:02 MK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah 23:04 AD: Oh, so there are more? 23:05 MK: No, no, it is like Marwan. 23:07 AD: Okay. 23:08 MK: Yeah and there is a Kurdish lady, but she, uh, she like has the American citizenship. I know her through another friend as well, yeah. And I was, yeah. I was there in the Thanksgiving, yeah, in their house, yeah. 23:22 AD: That is nice. 23:24 MK: Yeah. 23:25 AD: Getting to know people. So did you build relationship with like other groups? Like Americans, or I do not know, different nationalities. 23:27 MK: Yeah, yeah; absolutely. So in the, it is one of the things in our department that we have weekly gathering, so, yeah I build relationship with Americans as well and other international student as well. 23:49 AD: So, do you hang out with them? Do things? 23:52 MK: Yeah, we do, like when I have time I do, yeah. [chuckles] 23:56 AD: Yeah because you are busy and then, most of your time goes for studies. So what did you do during the break? When you had a break? 24:06 MK: This break? Or like usually? 24:10 AD: Winter break. 24:11 MK: Oh, so the winter break, it was a miserable one, because all my friends [laughs] are not here, so I was just basically on Netflix, or studying, not studying actually reading or whatever. Um so yeah, that how I mean, that is the longest break that I had so far. And the winter break, that was the winter break, the spring break, I was also busy with studying. Yeah. 24:33 AD: Yeah spring break I never consider it spring break. 24:36 MK: Yeah as a break. 24:38 AD: Spring break is a time to study. 24:40 MK: And usually, professors use that to give more homework. [laughs] 24:43 AD: Exactly, right? So best time to catch up, yeah. 24:46 MK: [laughs] True. 24:47 AD: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Uh, so spring break, and then the Thanksgiving break. I never, never understood how people can go have a vacation– 25:59 MK: True. 25:00 AD: –Like this is time to catch up, yeah. 25:04 MK: True, yeah. 25:05 AD: So, uh, now the summer is coming. What are you planning for summer? So this is going to be a very empty campus during summer. 25:15 MK: Yeah, I am planning to tour around the state, the places that I am interested in, yeah, and part of I will dedicate it for working on my thesis, maybe if I find an internship or to work. But like basically yeah, my basic aim is to tour around the state [laughs] and to study. 25:35 AD: Alone, or do you have friends, or– 25:38 MK: So that depends, uh, because a lot of my friends, even the international ones are going back home, it depends. So, but, I think I will have like at least one or two. [laughs] Yeah. 25:48 AD: Okay, so there is a big, you know, Kurdish community, like Iraqi Kurdish in Nashville area– 25:58 MK: True. 25:58 AD: –You know that right. 26:00 MK: Yeah. 26:00 AD: Do you have any like, family or friends that? 26:05 MK: Mhm, no, not really. 26:07 AD: No? 26:07 MK: No, no 26:07 AD: No, because I think that is like the biggest Kurdish community– 26:13 MK: True, true. 26:14 AD: –Uh they call it like little Kurdistan, I think. 26:17 MK: True, yeah, yeah. 26:18 AD: So, you do not have anyone– 26:20 MK: No. 26:20 AD: –You do not know anyone. 26:21 MK: No. [laughs] 26:24 AD: Yeah, you will be fine. 26:26 MK: Yeah, I will be fine. [laughs] 26:28 AD: Yeah, yeah, so how long, uh, will you stay here? So you will definitely have next fall. 26:37 MK: Yeah, so next fall is my last semester here, I will be home in December. 26:43 AD: Oh, so you decided so that– or that is the rule for your scholarship that you have to– 26:49 MK: It is yeah. I mean, because like my, I finish my Masters until then. So, so when I finish it is one of the regulations that I go back home, yeah and after that I do not know whether if I want to continue for Ph.D. here or not. I do not know, it really depends. As I told you, it is so challenging now the working environment, because I am even not sure if I go back home I am going to work with my own specialization or no. Everything depends in the time when I go back home and if I get out of the situation. 27:19 AD: Are you planning on going for you Ph.D.? Do you, do you want to go? I am not saying you are going, but– 27:29 MK: I may do it if I know that I will work in the academic field, yeah, yeah. 27:35 AD: So, do you want to come to the States, not necessarily here, do you want to do it in the States, or? 27:45 MK: It also depends in what I am going to teach so I am currently I am so much interested in Kurdish studies. If that really go on, there is the University of Exeter they have– 27:55 AD: In England, yes. 27:56 MK: –Yeah they have department for Kurdish studies, I do not know, I am just daydreaming. Or maybe here because like I love it here as well, because there are some Universities who have Kurdish Studies, not specifically Kurdish Studies, but they have, they have some department that are dedicating for that. 28:14 AD: There are some universities in the States related to Kurdish Studies. 28:19 MK: Is it the one in Florida? I have heard about one in Florida and Chicago? 28:24 AD: Yeah, Chicago, yes. 28:26 MK: Yeah, yeah but they do not, they do not give courses I think, right? 28:32 AD: I do not know the exact details, but they are providing like Kurdish language courses– 28:40 MK: Yeah. 28:40 28:40 AD: –I think it is getting there. It does not happen very quickly– 28:44 MK: True. 28:44 AD: –It takes time, but it is not like Exeter by any means. Because that has been established– 28:51 MK: True. 28:51 AD: –A while ago, so I think they are trying to establish here as well. 28:58 MK: True. 28:58 AD: So, uh, it, but it is interesting. So, it took you to come to United States to figure out that you are really interested in Kurdish Studies. [laughs] 29:10 MK: Yeah. [laughs] It was always amused but you know when you go to an external environment you get exposed to the question of your identity so much. 29:20 AD: Right? 29:20 MK: Yeah, yeah. 29:21 AD: So now you are Kurdish, so you were not even aware of that, now your Kurdish identity became stronger. 29:29 MK: It became stronger especially when you find in other nations that how the studies have developed and yours is not that much developed, so it becomes a challenge why, why it is not developed, we have to work on it, yeah, yeah. 29:43 AD: Absolutely. 29:43 MK: Yeah, yeah. 29:44 AD: Absolutely, that is a good thing. So do you have like uh, traditional clothing with you? Do you wear it like during special days? 29:56 MK: I actually brought with me, but so I have not been to any [laughs] Kurdish celebration. [laughs] 30:05 AD: Any weddings to go? 30:06 MK: –There was a Kurdish wedding I was invited, but I was in New York, so I could not wear it. [laughs] Yeah. 30:15 AD: So, do you wear, uh, traditional clothing. Like when do you wear it? In Duhok– 30:18 MK: Ah, okay. 30:18 AD: –When you are living in Duhok what are the occasions you wear those cloths? 30:26 MK: So, usually a lot of girls wear– usually the old women wear it all the time. Girls in my age they wear it inside the house, some of them, but for me it is not that much comfortable to wear it inside the house. So I usually wear it at Newroz and in weddings, and sometimes in celebrations, like if there is feast or something, sometimes I wear it into celebrations as well, yeah. 30:50 AD: So, everybody wears it like when– 30:54 MK: Yeah. 30:54 AD: –Like let us say Newroz, that is like very uh important. So, every– like– Do Kurdish people go– like in Duhok, I am not talking about in United States– 31:08 MK: Yeah. 31:08 AD: –Go with like regular clothing, or they all wear? 31:11 MK: In Newroz? No like, most of them wear the Kurdish cloths, yeah. 31:17 AD: Yeah. 31:17 MK: Yeah, yeah. 31:18 AD: That is just like the tradition. 31:21 MK: Yeah, true, yeah. 31:24 AD: Yeah, so do you have any questions to ask uh Midya? 31:31 JS: Um, not really, well actually maybe, maybe on the religion front. Um, how is religion different from in Kurdistan than here? Like, is there– 31:43 MK: You mean for me personally or the community, the Kurdish community? 31:49 AD: Both. 31:49 JS: Both [laughter] 31:50 AD: Start with personally then tell us what your observation. 31:57 MK: For me personally I am not a very religious person, I do pray and fast, but I am not very restricted to religious person, so for me it is kind of the same. In both countries. For the Kurdish community here, I feel like some families are struggling to keep the traditions and to keep their kids on the track they used to be and others cannot control it. So I have seen two types of Kurds here, the Kurds who are, uh trying to do at least praying and fasting and the Kurds who are like no, I mean they no longer caring about that. So, I have seen those two types, yeah. And I think it is a struggle for Kurdish parents to keep their kids on the track especially in the State. Yeah. 32:46 AD: Yeah. 32:46 MK: The track that they want, I mean. Yeah. 32:48 AD: Because kids, react. 32:51 MK: Yeah, because they are basically American, yeah. 32:54 AD: Yeah, absolutely so, uh, the other thing is, when– So, religion is one of them you think people are losing. What I mean losing, it is like uh the kids react to it– 32:12 MK: Yeah. 32:13 AD: –They do not want to follow strict– 33:15 MK: True. 33:16 AD: –Rules– 33:16 MK: Yeah. 33:18 AD: –Uh what else, like your observation, what else do you think, uh, is disappearing in Kurdish culture. Like what is continuing and what is disappearing? 33:30 MK: What I founded amazing that even young people here speak in Kurdish, which is, I did not expect that because they grown up in the State, but they do speak it and I do not know why. Is it because there is a large community here or because it is like how they grown up? Um what was the question? [mumbles] [laughter] 33:52 AD: Or like– So language– 33:53 MK: My observation– 33:54 AD: –Your observation. 33:55 MK: Ah, okay. The other observation, uh, I think the Kurdish parents are kind of struggling with their kids because I mean now with the globalization all the parents are struggling, because all of them they are like from the old generation, they were not exposed to it, and now… because even, because even parents in Kurdistan are struggling that. So here the conflict it is higher, because they, they want their kids to, for example, to be married, to follow certain norms and now because they cannot embrace that. It is not something that belongs to them. So I think this one of the struggles I have noticed here, yeah, yeah. 34:38 AD: So, uh, I know they want people to continue to marry, because those were the answers when I asked the question continue to marry Kurdish people, or girls or boys and then like keep it together, but uh I think there were some students that I knew that they are like dating or seeing other people. So, did you also observe that? 35:12 MK: Yeah, and I observed this hard for their parents to cope for that, but– 35:16 AD: Yeah. 35:17 MK: But yeah, like they are human. I mean they– 35:18 AD: They live in a society– 35:19 MK: –Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah– 35:19 AD: Yeah. 35:19 MK: I have observed that, especially the, the younger generation, um they, they basically, I mean, they cause, but they are living an American life, so it is so normal for them to be with another couple that is not, another person that is not really Kurdish and, but I think that is a struggle for their parents. Yeah. 35:46 AD: Yeah, so do you think the community here is still keeping the Kurdish identity? 35:57 MK: Mhm, to some extent, it varies from one family to another, but I think to some extent, not like that much strong, but it is not even that much lost as well. So, it really, so the parents here they could keep it for– They could keep it, they could invest that somehow in their kids. Now it depends on the kids on how they going to invest it on the coming generation. 36:22 AD: Yeah, will they marry another Kurdish person, for example– 36:27 MK: So basically, will they speak in Kurdish with their kids, or tell them the traditions or no, yeah. 36:34 AD: Yeah. 36:34 MK: Yeah. 36:34 AD: Like also the– Do you see people, like constantly cook Kurdish food, or they started to switch to like American, like you know, American food? 36:53 MK: I do not have that much interaction, but from the family that I have met uh I think they are– I do not think– Because the family that I met they really do the Kurdish food, and I know some of them are still like that. But I do not know about all of them. Yeah, yeah. 37:11 AD: Yeah, and then whenever you see them it is probably special day, so that is all you see– 37:17 MK: True. 37:17 AD: Is Kurdish food ̶ 37:19 MK: True, yeah. 37:20 AD: Yeah, because traditionally, uh, you know, you make the Kurdish bread and even Marwan told me that there is a special kind of– 37:33 MK: Dough? 37:33 AD: –Yeah, needs to be brought here, so and then some people have in their homes. But like how many people have it, and how many much. Like when you have a full-time job, how are you going to do that? 37:46 MK: Yeah, I think, no, I think like to certain extent I think they are– because basically people who live in the Kurdish territories they are not that much committed to cooking food. But so, I think here– yeah, I do not think that they are doing, backing bread, or doing harder stuff, I do not think so. It might be only on special occasions. Yeah. 38:14 AD: Yeah, even in Kurdistan they stopped religiously doing that kind of hard work, labor intense cooking I would call that. 38:24 MK: Yeah, yeah especially the younger generation, because– 38:27 AD: Because they work? Right? When you work full time, how are you going to have time to go home and start making the dough and– 38:35 MK: True. 38:35 AD: –To make the bread. It is hard. 38:37 MK: True. 38:37 AD: Twenty-first century. 38:41 MK: Yeah. 38:41 AD: Absolutely, so anything else? That was a very good question by the way. 38:48 JS: Thanks. [clears throat] 38:49 AD: I am thinking if there is anything else, uh. 38:54 JS: I cannot really think of anything. 38:55 AD: Yeah, I cannot either; do you have anything else to add? 39:01 MK: Maybe the conflict of identity that Kurds are facing now? 39:04 AD: Yeah, yes. 39:05 MK: Mhm, yeah so– 39:05 AD: –So that is another issue liking in diaspora ̶ 39:15 MK: Even actually I think– because now like– So it is since 90s we are having our autonomous uh territory and we are studying in Kurdish, we are seeing all the labels in Kurdish, we are celebrating our own traditions and so on. So, the Kurdish new generation, I think the conflict now higher than before when it comes to identity. We longer living wars, we are no longer– So now like we, we no longer really interacting that much with people, I mean except if they like displaced people or workers of whatever, but we are not– We are no longer, in out check points, we are having Arabs people telling to show us your identity or whatever. So, the whole conclusion is that we ask Kurds who raise up after the 90s, our sense of identity is hard than before that, we cannot, we cannot– It is hard for us to tell we are Iraqis, so especially when it comes to diaspora. So once one of my German friends told me “I was with– I went to the barber and he was Kurd and I told him, where are you from? He told me, I am from Kurdistan. He said it was talking for me you guys say you are from Kurdistan.” And I was like yeah I think that we Kurds we are now living in this conflict of identity, which one to impress, we know that we are Kurds, but at the same time we know that there is no word of Kurdistan that exist in a map or official documents. So I think this conflict of identity now is highly affecting on us, uh our daily interaction because even like with our other Arab friend it is hard for them to understand– It is not harder, but like it is hard to accept the idea that we are a different identity group. We are different ethnical group. So, so I think now that new generation we are struggling when it comes to identity, and especially in diaspora. So I think that we are always lost in this, the amount of language that we are embracing since we have a grown up, than the amount of identity that, I am Kurdish, but then when I have in my passport is Iraqi, then do I really belong to this Iraq, or no? and then when I go the diaspora I am exposed to other identities, so I do not know whether it is even it might be even the modern age fever, that everyone is having this conflict of identity to what we belong to truly. But now for me, especially, after I came to the State, now it is even more tense. What is my identity, what do I belong to really? So, yeah, yeah. I think now, this is like one of the hot topics that is in the Kurdish brain– people– young generation mind, the identity. 42:15 AD: Absolutely. 42:15 MK: Yeah. 42:16 AD: But uh, even though you know Saddam is gone and you know thankfully hard days are over, uh, but you know Kurdish people came a very very long way, so and then kept the identity going– 42:37 MK: Yeah, true. 42:38 AD: –And not just in Iraq, look in Iran, especially in Turkey– 42:43 MK: Mhm, True. 42:44 AD: –So and, so I think it is one of the very strong identities, like among people that– 42:54 MK: Yeah. 42:54 AD: –I met. Even though, it is normal, all those factors are very valid, but uh. 43:06 MK: Yeah, true. 43:08 AD: You know even the people, like uh, I met or I read like they lost a lot of aspects of Kurdish culture, maybe they do not really know the history of it anymore– 43:25 MK: True. 43:25 AD: –But when it comes to the question, what is your identity and then they are like oh I am Kurdish. [laughs] You know, you know what I mean. MK: True, yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. AD: Very interesting, it is like they cannot really tell you solid thing. Like there are a lot of Kurdish people in Germany for example. They lost a lot of things– 43:47 MK: Yeah true. 43:48 AD: –But when it comes to the question, oh yeah, I am Kurdish. [laughs] 43:52 MK: True, true, yeah-yeah true, true, yeah. 43:54 AD: So that is promising in a way. [laughter] So, yeah but it is it is a big problem. 44:05 MK: Yeah, true, the identity is a big problem. Especially it is conflict between us and other ethnicities, which we do not really love it, I mean I personally I do not really like it, but– 44:15 AD: Yeah. 44:15 MK: –It is what it is. [laughs] 44:18 AD: That is right, that is right. 44:20 MK: Yeah. 44:20 AD: And religion in this area I talked to two different people. There is a group they are very religious, and then there is a group they are not religious at all, so. And that is the case living in Duhok, right? Not everyone is religious– 44:39 MK: True. 44:39 AD: –Or in any society. So people. In this place you know, not everyone goes to church every Sunday and some people do and some people– So, that is normal. 44:52 MK: True. 44:54 AD: That is a normal thing. Uh, I think, but language, religion, identity, that is all important aspects of the Kurdish diaspora– 45:11 MK: True. 45:12 AD: –We examine today. 45:14 MK: Yeah, true. 45:15 AD: So, I cannot think of any other question. 45:20 JS: I think we covered a good portion. I cannot think of anything either. 45:25 AD: Yeah, I think, I think because uh, you know, you are actually the second– Actually you are the youngest person so far– 45:36 MK: Oh really? 45:37 AD: –We interviewed, so your perspective is totally different because you do not have– 45:43 MK: Yeah. 45:44 AD: –You do not have the memory– 45:45 MK: True, yeah. 45:46 AD: –Of what your parents went through– 45:48 MK: Yeah, true. 45:49 AD: –You have little bit of things through them– 45:52 MK: Yeah. 45:52 AD: –But thankfully you do not have that memory, uh, and so it is different. 45:58 MK: Yeah, it is different true. 45:59 AD: Yeah. 45:59 MK: Yeah. 46:00 AD: So, do you have anything else like regarding your experience living here <clear-throat> uh related to society or related to Kurdish community, or anything you want to add? 46:26 MK: Mhm, no nothing in my mind so far. [laughs] 46:29 AD: Okay, but they were really helping and accepting toward you when you came here. 46:35 MK: Oh yeah, because when I was back home, I was like I wish I do not meet Kurdish, because like I sick of my society I wanted to go somewhere there were not any Kurds, but when I came here I realized that it is really important to know some people and there were really– I mean like they were so generous and helpful and I was like surprised. I mean like, I was like wow, I mean I should have, I should not have been so weird about it at the beginning. [laughs] Yeah because they really, they really helped me so much especially when I first moved to here, yeah. 47:06 AD: That is nice. 47:07 MK: [laughs] Yeah. 47:07 AD: Yeah, so you did not want that and that happened and then– 47:11 MK: No, I did not want that, I want go to society that is completely different one, but– yeah, but. 47:13 AD: How did the– Like did you pick Binghamton University, or the Fulbright [name of the scholarship] people decided where you are going based on your studies? 47:21 MK: It is basically, they tell us to suggest– So I never knew that Binghamton has the Kurdish community, but it is like, it is what they, they selected actually, they tell us to do some selection, but eventually it is them who select and decide, yeah. 47:32 AD: So, and you selected because of the faculty, or like what a department has to offer– 47:54 MK: I think so, yeah, yeah, yeah. 47:56 AD: Yeah, yeah, and then having the Kurdish. [laughter] community was a bonus. [laughter] 48:06 MK: True, that was something I should be thankful about it, I did not know about it. [laughter] True, yeah. 48:12 AD: Okay, well thank you so much for you time and– 48:16 MK: Yeah, no thank you. 48:17 AD: –I wish you good luck and I am sure you will do just fine. 48:25 MK: Inshallah [God willing]. [laughs] 48:27 AD: Inshallah, okay, all righty. 48:28 MK: Thanks a lot, I am sorry for the bad language– (End of interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Midya Khudur https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1eaa32bcdd14b675956ae398d27b123e.jpg 6e47195e0ac930da300ea4543b25a81c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e477e03be319d57a7cabc19c63c2ef16.mp3 48e4bf7ae48778b7ad6bdb6c712f092d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism. <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2019-06-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jacobs, Ron Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 02:08:11 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Rock and Roll, 60's music, Vietnam War, Anti-war protests, Germany, Freedom of Speech Movement, Political activism, Music influence on politics. Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975; Peace movements—United States--20th century; Jacobs, Ron--Interviews Biographical Text Ron Jacobs is a writer and activist. He attended his first protest against the Vietnam war in 1969. Jacob is the author of The Way the Wind Blew: A History of the Weather Underground and a trilogy of novels called The Seventies Series. He has a Bachelor's degree from Evergreen State College. Jacob currently writes for Counterpunch magazine. He continues his activism against war, racism, and capitalism. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ron Jacobs Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 4 June 2019 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:00 Let us start, so are you ready? RJ: 00:01 I am ready. SM: 00:02 Okay. Very good. First off, thank you very much for doing this. When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? You can use words or adjectives, and why do you pick these adjectives? So, what, when you think of those two periods, what do you think of? RJ: 00:24 The first thing I think of is, is anti-war. And it is just because I was, that was pretty important in my life, being against the war and so on, and a lot of my friends was. And I think the other thing, I think, of is probably rock music, rock concerts just because they seem to me they kind of symbolize great, they symbolize like a certain kind of mentality where there is a lot of freedoms that did not exist before, and probably do not exist as much now, but still, you know, in the same manner. SM: 01:04 You know, you make a good point here, because when you talk about the music of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, when you think of the (19)60s and (19)70s, you think of the background music, which is the music, but it was much more than background, it was actually at the forefront, because- could you talk about the music a little bit more detail like what your favorite groups were and why? And secondly, the messages that were often in the music is something that I do not see today, but there were very clear messages in a lot of that music. RJ: 01:36 Yeah. My favorite bands were Bob Dylan, the Beatles, The Stones and the Grateful Dead and Creedence Clearwater. And I think I liked, I could not really tell you why I like the Beatles, mostly because they kind of reflected and led like the whole, to me anyhow, what it meant to be a hippie counterculture kind of person. You know, they gradually went into- they grad- they started off as just mop tops, and eventually started being spokespeople and reflections of the, of the greater counterculture movement [phone rings] that was going up around them among regular people [clatter]. The Rolling Stones, I think, mostly because what I think of is (19)68 Street Fighting Man and, and their songs about revolution. Because even if they were not revolutionaries, they did, their music riled up people and also going back to the message, the message was, you know, well, for example, say Street Fighting Man, you know, the message was that there was nothing else to do, the only way we were going to be able to move ahead is if we if we get out, is if we join a rock and roll band, but the rock and roll band in itself is a revolutionary statement. And Grateful Dead, I think the Grateful Dead to me just represented a place where if everything worked out okay, and the counterculture dreams, worked out, worked out the way they were supposed to everything, it was the world that we could be living in in another 10 years or something. I mean, obviously, it did work out. But that was kind of what in my teenage mind, that was kind of how I saw it and stuff. Bob Dylan, it is really hard to say, but because he was so much, I mean, it was when I first discovered him was probably in (19)68, when I was 13 and I heard Like a Rolling Stone. And, and then from there, I just got into his music because it was his voice was so unusual. And I liked the whole image that he presented on the wandering vagabond, the Woody Guthrie kind of guy, the, you know, I liked his cynicism. But at the same time, it was tinged with some kind of like hope. And then as he went on, I think what really sold me more than anything else was when he did the Rolling Thunder Revue in the mid (19)70s, which where he tried to revive, you know, the whole [inaudible] he did around Hurricane Carter, and his-his constant advocacy for African Americans and the working people and so on, even in his songs that were not overtly political, he was advocating for them. You know what he would do the biography songs. I will say, The Ballad of Hollis Brown, or William Zanzinger. And you know, some of the, and he did the song on George Jackson. And George Jackson was important to me, because I was a at the time I was hanging out with Black Panthers over in Germany. And so, you know, as a friend, and so they will you we read a lot about that. Creedence Clearwater as a [inaudible] since my father was in the military, that song Fortunate Son was really crucial to me where he attacks, "I am not no military son," and he was just attacking the whole war machine and the mentality of us making money off of war. And that kind of tied in with the country Joe song, "What are we fighting for, 1234, what are we fighting for?" Yeah. SM: 03:30 Wow. When you talk about the music again of that era, you talk about sometimes the music even defines the year, let alone a specific event. And you were talking about (19)69, this is the 50th anniversary of Woodstock this year. And then of course, it was, I think it was (19)67 was the Summer of Love. And they are all defined by music. And even in the early (19)70s, when you think of the music change, George Harrison's music for Bangladesh, which is one of the first concerts to raise funds for a tragedy that was happening around the world, it was amazing how music brings people together for so many reasons. Just your thoughts on those three events. RJ: 05:55 Yeah, the Summer of Love, I was just a kid, you know, I was like in junior high school. It fascinated me and the son- I think the song, the album that some of the albums that will always be identified for me are, is Sergeant Pepper's since that came out like that year at the beginning of June (19)67. (19)69, I mean, that was kind of the year when I really started getting into listening to a lot of albums and moving past the (19)45s, you know, into and when you think of a lot of the songs that came out, a lot of the albums that came out that year, it is kind of interesting. And then you toss in those two keynote events, at least according to the media, Woodstock and Altamont. You know, Woodstock still, it is, it is this, you know, it is this thing that everybody knows about. I can think of, I have nieces and nephews who are in their 20s now, but I am probably back in 19-, it must have been around (19)99 when they were like, you know, when they were babies, or three or four years old. And they had heard my older sister and I some of our friends and some of our siblings talk about Woodstock. They-they knew what it was, it was part of their consciousness in terms of like, oh, yeah, what I guess went on people got together, had a good time and loved each other and listened to music, you know. I mean, that is, that is the watered-down version. But that is what people think of when they think of Woodstock. And then Altamont is always, even if it was not the end of the counterculture which I do not think it was, it has this, it has all that darkness around it. You know, and you know, the concert for Bangladesh, I was living in Germany at the time, because my dad was in the military. And so I was, I think, a junior in high school, and when the movie hit over in Germany, and I had been reading about the concert, because on the military base where the high school that I went to was, there was a base library, and it got the Village Voice, and it got Rolling Stone magazine, and the GI who was the head librarian, him and I were friends so he would always make sure that I, he would set them aside for me so I could read them before he put them on the shelf. And I remember all the, reading all the articles in the wake of the Bangladesh concert. So, when the movie finally came out, I remember skipping school and I went to this movie theater downtown that showed movies in German and then sometimes they would have English subtitles. But it did not matter for that since that was a concert movie, it did not really matter. But I remember sitting there and watching it go through like three times just because I could not get enough of watching the music and just the combination of those musicians and kind of kind of trying to put myself there just which is what the Woodstock movie did really well, too. I mean, the Woodstock movie universalized the Woodstock experience, even if it was just a way for Warner Brothers to make money. It also kind of spread the whole Woodstock idea around the world. SM: 07:33 Yes. Is there is there again, you have mentioned some events that really kind of impacted your early life. But is there one particular event and when you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, that stands out for you more than any other? And I say that, do you think that stands out for the generation that you are part of? And secondly, can you remember a personal event or experience where that really impacted you during that whole period? RJ: 09:24 I do not know if I can remember just one. I think Woodstock is a key event. But I also think maybe more on the political side was either the moratorium in (19)69, or maybe even more so the Kent State, when Kent State happened. SM: 09:45 Oh, yeah. RJ: 09:46 And Kent State to me, I was in, I was a freshman in high school, and we walked out, you know, we walked out of classes and everything. This is over in Germany on a military base, but there were so many people, it just affected people in such a, in that kind of way. Personally, it would probably be Kent State, you know, and the aftermath of Kent State that that made the biggest impact on I think it really convinced me that no matter what I thought things were, there was, I could not trust the authorities. SM: 10:24 Right. I think it is interesting, Ron, you mentioned that because that is the event that shaped my life in terms of when I was at the school Binghamton. I graduated, [crosstalk] I graduated in (19)70. And, and I went into higher education as a career because of what happened at Kent State. Because it was the epitome of what we saw for quite a while were students, and were not talking to faculty and students were, you know, some of the administration are in very bad relationships. And so I went into it to see if I can do it my small role in changing that. And, and so, you know, that is a very important event in my life. And that was when I was a senior in college. RJ: 11:06 Interesting, yeah. SM: 11:07 I wanted to ask you this question, too, and it gets real- what you hear today in the news many times is when we go back to the (19)60s, the culture wars that we are seeing today in our society, in (20)19, are definitely going back to that era, the (19)60s, they say. Do you still see divisions in the (19)60s in today's society? Some, some call it the ongoing culture wars. I would just like your thoughts on that. RJ: 11:33 I do think there is divisions, but I do not think they are divided in the same- the divisions are not the same as they were before if you know what I-I mean, a lot of times back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, it was always presented as generational, you know, and, and now I am not so sure. Because there is people like us, who it is generational, but in a different way. I mean, I know people like in their 60s and older, tend to be more conservative, even now that I just think because back when we were younger, there were more conservative people, they just went about their business. But I think I think that the key division that still exists, is ones having to do with women and their rights. And I think we are seeing it down south and all the all the recent abortion law laws that are going back to almost as bad as it was before Roe vs. Wade, in terms of restricting women's right to choose, and so on. And I also see behind that I see a basically a misogyny, a system of systemic misogyny that it is certain that some people cannot let go. And of course, you know, given who we have in office right now, who is obviously president who is obviously a misogynist in his own foolish way. You know, there is people who are a lot meaner, a lot, a lot more sharper and meaner than he is, and more political than he is, who are taking us to the next level which are these laws and these attacks on women. I do not know; the other stuff is harder to tell. I do not know if the racial divide is as big as it was. I think it is still there. But I think that with the exception of a small number of racists, I think individual racism: has almost gone. I mean, it is, it is more overt now than it was, you know, say under Barack Obama, or even George Bush or Bill Clinton. But that is because of the nature of once again, who's in power. SM: 13:37 Right. RJ: 13:37 But I, in terms of a lot of the generational stuff. I do not know that it is that big a deal. I mean, I just got finished teaching at a, working at a college last year. And now I just semi-retired, and got a part time job down at the local public library. And I was working with a lot of college kid well, obviously, working, I worked at the library, so I interact with a lot of college students. And I would say the biggest thing now is with a lot of the college- and this was a liberal arts Catholic school, in general, small like about 2000 students- I would say, in general, the overall politics are liberal. And so, and this is in Vermont, so that might have something to do with it. Overall, the and the social, the cultural stuff is nothing, I mean if they do not if they do not smoke pot, they do not care that it is legal. You know, they are they do not care about the gender identity stuff. They do not care about trans. They do not care about gay, straight, any of that stuff. So, I think a lot of those things, at least maybe in the generation coming up now like say 35 and under. I do not think that stuff is there at all, hardly, you know. But I would say there is still some strong divisions and like I said, I think the biggest one is around the rights of women. SM: 14:53 Right. Very good point. Could you discuss a little bit of your background where you grew up, your relationship with your parents, experiences that shaped you when you were very young politically or socially or, and-and the any school experiences that you might have had? RJ: 15:12 Sure. Well, I grew up, I was born in (19)55. My father was in the military when I was born. He had graduated from college the year before, he had gotten into ROTC so he would not be drafted into the Korean War. And then they decided, he decided, him and my mother decided that he was going to make a career out of the military. He was an officer, he, he went into what they call security service, which is basically gathering intelligence. He worked with NSA. He was he was one of the original officers at the founding of the National Security Agency in the late (19)50s. And so, we traveled around the world we got, we ended up we were stationed, after a few years of going from Texas to Alaska, back to Texas and so on, we ended up in Maryland, outside of Washington, DC in (19)60- (19)59 or (19)60. And then we went to Pakistan, because the military had a spy base there with-with satellites. And this also they used the joint- they shared an airport with the Pakistani military and the-the Pak- and the Pakistani civilian people that they used to use to fly U2 planes over the Soviet Union. In fact, it was where it was the base, where the U2 plane that Gary Powers was flying that got shot down, it was where it was launched. But they-they were not doing U2 planes anymore, because then by then they had better radar-radar technology. And so, it was a small base, we were there for two years. While I was there, there was a war between India and Pakistan. And so, they evacuated all the women and children from the base. We went to Turkey and spent three months on an airbase there. And this was right around the same time as they were starting to move all the US dependents out of Vietnam, because Vietnam was starting to really heat up, (19)65, fall of, fall of (19)65. And then we went back to the States, and we lived in Maryland for, my father every time he was stationed in a state where I was living with him, it was always- after he moved to Maryland the first time- it was always back to Maryland, because that is where his work was. And then we went to, then he went to Vietnam in (19)68, when I was 13. And he came back when I was 14. And over that cour- I was starting, I was against the war before he left, like I was, I campaigned for [inaudible] Bobby Kennedy and Eugene McCarthy. I would just pass it out, you know, pass out literature and– SM: 17:37 Right. RJ: 17:38 -knock knocking on doors with the local Democratic precinct chair Catherine because she lived right up the street from us. And she was a family friend. My father was always a Republican, he always voted for Nixon, my mother was always a Democrat. We come from a big family, there is a total of 12 kids in our family. SM: 17:57 Wow. [laughs] RJ: 17:58 I am the second oldest, I have a sister who is a year older than me, and my sister and I shared a very similar trajectory in terms of our politics, our interests and stuff. I was probably a little more fringe than she was because it was easier for me to be being a white guy, and white male, I would could get away with more and so on, you know, especially back in the (19)60s, early (19)70s. And then when we-we got, my dad came back from Vietnam in (19)69. And I had been really following a lot, you know I would go to the antiwar protests in our hometown that were put on by some of the college students from University of Maryland, which was about eight miles from [inaudible]. And they were they were [inaudible] this is during the moratorium they were [inaudible] protests, we stood and we read out the names of the war dead and had peace signs and stuff you know, but you know, people drove by and threw stuff at us, you know, because it was a pretty redneck town, a pretty military town. And then we moved to- my dad got stationed to Frankfurt, Germany- and we moved there in March (19)70. And right when the Beatles Let it Be song was released, I remember listening to it in the, in the military airport before we took off to go to Germany. And so, I went to high school, I finished up my ninth grade and finished up high school out of milit- at a high school on a military base in Frankfort. It was a big high school, it is great high school, a lot of liberal teachers. And I think part of it was because a lot of the teachers wanted those jobs because then they could live in Europe and go skiing and visit you know all these different places. So, when I was over there, there was a bunch of rebels in the high school, and we worked together with them. Some anti-war GIS and stuff, we put out and we distribute an underground newspaper and I went to a lot of protests, and we worked with some Black Panthers and stuff. We help we help publicize when Angela Davis was arrested and in jail, her sister did a tour to raise funds to free Angela Davis. And they came to Frankfort and so we-we helped publicize that on base with some, you know, leaving leaflets and talking to different GIS and, and students and so on. And then when I came back to the, I graduated (19)73 came back to the States. And basically, I got involved. I went to Fordham University for a year and got involved there, just kind of there. First, I was just doing the impeachment stuff because that is when the impeaching Nixon thing was just getting warm. It was right, I was there the fall when the Saturday Night Massacre happened with when he fired all Archibald Cox and stuff. SM: 20:42 Right. RJ: 20:43 And then also, the coup against Chile happened. So, I was living in New York City so I was able to go to protests, it was kind of something that I wanted to do. Then I left there and went to University of Maryland for a while. And then I dropped out and just kind of worked and went to California. And was kind of worked when I felt like it living, hitchhiking around, living on the streets going to festivals. I was I was somewhat politically involved. You know and I sold pot, stuff like that, you know, just kind of living that kind of. SM: 21:17 Did you ever live in a commune? RJ: 21:20 Not really, I mostly just live with, like, most of the places I live in were kind of [inaudible] people I had good friends in the hog farm and I would crash at their house. But I never, I never wanted to join anything because I really did not want to usually because most of them you had to follow certain rules. And I did not want to commit myself to anything– SM: 21:39 Right. RJ: 21:39 -at the time. So, I was just kind of like an independent operator if you want to use a funny term or something, you know. SM: 21:46 What is amazing about on the West Coast and then San, San Francisco area, the diggers are the big group out there. Yeah, and kind of [crosstalk] On the streets, and then they went, then when everything happened they all went off into the commune life. RJ: 22:00 Yeah, and they, their-their, their reach is pretty far and wide. Down into Kizzy, the people that were connected to Kizzy with [inaudible] Kizzy and the Grateful Dead, because a lot of them ended up, you know, they ended up starting a hog farm, they ended up starting these other communes up north in Northern California. Peter Coyote was a digger. You know, he became a famous movie star and actor and stuff. And then there was some other guys who came back East. Some of them ended up joining up with the yippies, Abbie Hoffman, and those guys, even and you know, there was always kind of a running joke between the yippies and the diggers is that the diggers invented a lot of the stuff that the yippies made popular and sold to the world. And it is kind of true, the Free Store, and the free meals and all that kind of stuff, and how to, you know, drop the, you know, get free phone calls, all that kind of stuff. The diggers talked about it and did it but they did not write books about it. Whereas I would kind of argue that it was because the yippies were an East Coast phenomenon, you kind of did things differently on the East Coast because it was more populated, less, more impersonal as well. SM: 23:13 Yeah, of course. The yippies had a pig for President. So [laughs] RJ: 23:16 Right. SM: 23:19 Pigasus. Pigasus the pig. RJ: 23:21 Pigasus. Yeah-yeah. SM: 23:22 When you think of the (19)60s- now, again, I am going to ask you, what do you think is the (19)60s. I have had many people say what they felt the (19)60s was, I have had people say, well, it was two parts. It was the part and the first three years when Ken- then Kennedy was assassinated, then you had the second part of the (19)60s which went through to the mid (19)70s. Then there is some that say the (19)60s should be (19)60 and (19)70, quit talking about all this (19)70s stuff. What-what, what defines the-the years for the (19)60s to you? RJ: 23:58 I like to think of it in terms of the long (19)60s, when I think in France and in Germany, and a couple other European countries and basically what defines it is this: raised consciousness and spirit that was, that was infused with lot of hope that people could change the world and actually make it into a place where everybody had, truly had equal chances, because everybody had their basic things taken care of like food, education, health care, housing, that was all there. For, that was what everybody could afford that and then they could actually work on living, living out their dreams and, and, and kind of moving beyond the individualist, individualistic rat race that (19)50s kind of brought on you know, the-the prosperity. But at the same time, there was another part of it which was the forces of reaction, which basically took over in the late, well they Nixon, Nixon was the first one of those. But I honestly think that that really became popular under Ronald Reagan. And the forces of reaction, which kind of, it never wanted to see that hope that the (19)60s represented come to fruition, and are still trying to turn it back, which is, you know, even little symbols of it like Obama or something, how some people just still cannot even deal with that, you know, or women's right to choose who, who that what they are going to do and so on. But I think overall, that the (19)60s were, were a positive thing. And I think they moved the world, Western, I think the entire world but that definitely the United States and the rest of the Western world, I think, and probably the Soviet Union, too, but they move people forward in terms of learning that it was okay, that learning that you should not judge people, by the way they look, I think that was probably one of the key things, whether it was long hair, or whether were skin color, or whether it was like, you know, man, woman, age, whatever, fat, skinny, whatever, you know– SM: 26:16 Would you say that, if you were to put a point where the (19)60s started, it is when the election of John Kennedy, because of the fact of his speech, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country?" And of course, we all know about the Peace Corps and VISTA. And you know, the people that did go into the service, you know, that whole feeling of giving back. And of course, then we lost him. And-and then, you know, some people are always saying, "When did the (19)60s end?" And some people say it has never ended, really, but-but some people think that the (19)60s ended when the helicopter went off the American Embassy in, in Saigon in on April 30, of (19)75. And that was really a very symbolic thing. And then others say that in the fall of (19)73, you saw a big difference on college campuses, because there were still protests through (19)72. And when streaking started on college campuses, if you remember that and fall of (19)73, streaking was [crosstalk]– RJ: 27:24 Yeah-yeah. SM: 27:24 -and no one was, activism seemed to die. It is like, it is the campus has totally changed. I just want your, what is your feelings are about, you know, Kennedy, streaking, the-the end of the Vietnam War, and we lost the war, your thoughts? RJ: 27:41 I would say the Kennedy thing is probably sometime in the campaign is probably a good pinpoint. But also one could argue that the Montgomery Bus Boycott, which took place a couple years earlier was- SM: 27:59 Ah, (19)57. Yep. RJ: 27:59 -was the seed, that was the seeds of the (19)60s because it was the first time that there was that kind of mass organization to change an obviously very unjust law. And Kennedy, whether he was a great hero, or whether he was not a great hero, he represented a lot of hope to a lot of people across the board, and I would argue so that Bobby Kennedy. If I were to say sometime [inaudible] I guess (19)73 in the fall was the year that I started college, at Fordham. And there was still a fair amount of activism, but it certainly was not anything like it was two years previous. And there was a lot of streaking going on-on the campus that I was on. But I think a lot of the activism had moved out into the streets and off campus by then because a lot of the people who were the primary activists, had graduated or left after you know graduated like around your time, or the year after. SM: 28:59 Yes. RJ: 29:00 (19)70, (19)71. SM: 29:01 Yep. RJ: 29:02 And I also think Kent State scared a lot of people away. SM: 29:05 Yep. RJ: 29:06 Because they saw how serious the authorities would get if, if things got if things got more out of hand than they already were in their mind. It is I can see why people would say the April 30 (19)75 was the end because Vietnam was such a defining- I mean, it was the key reason for so much of the protests. And it was kind of like, what brought a lot of these different strains of protest together because it was the war that was causing the economic situation. It was the war, the structure of the draft was racist, that people who are dying at the highest rate were African American and Latino immigrants and so on, so I can see that it was also taking away a lot of young men. SM: 29:51 Right. RJ: 29:53 But then there is another possibility that it was Jimmy Carter's election because even though he was a big change from Nixon and Ford. It was a different kind of, he was trying to- remember what the he had the amnesty? SM: 30:06 Oh, yes. RJ: 30:07 For the draft resistors? SM: 30:08 Oh, yes, yes. RJ: 30:08 And I think he was trying to put that all to bed. And what he, what he brought in, a lot of people do not think, are just starting to talk about this in the last five or six years, is that he brought in the idea that the government that [inaudible], the idea that the government should provide medical care, the idea that the government should help people get on their feet with welfare and stuff like that. And he started saying that, and that he started the actual downsizing of the government and privatizing a bunch of the government that Reagan carried out to a great extent, and has continued ever since. So, so it is, but symbolically, I think it would be the end of the Vietnam War. You know, because that that was so crucial, and that just meant so many people felt relieved when they knew that that was finally over, you know. SM: 31:02 Those are excellent observations. I appreciate what you just said. Very well thought out. What, we have, you already mentioned the whole issue of the spirit. I remember in some, many of the people that I have interviewed, one of them, in fact, was Richie Havens before he passed away. I did a phone interview, and I am trying to get his family to "okay" the interview, it is hard to get a hold of them. But there were several people that talked about this issue of spirit. Could you define the spirit of the 60s on and how would you define the spirit? What made it happen? And is it based on age and now I say age, because a lot of my interviews are on the boomer generation, those born between (19)46 and (19)64. But the front edge boomers are those born between (19)46 and say, (19)57. And they were involved in the activism and the protests because the others were kind of young- RJ: 31:52 Right-right. SM: 31:53 -during that. So oftentimes, we talk about this spirit in terms of age, but Richie corrected that with me. Richie said, I am a boomer and I was born in (19)41. And so, and it brought up a whole issue because most of the major activists were born in (19)39 to (19)45. [laughs] RJ: 32:13 Yeah. Timothy Leary was born in the early (19)30s. SM: 32:15 Yeah. So yeah-yeah, yeah. So- And Dave Dellinger was another one that was older. RJ: 32:19 Right, oh yeah. He was a lot older. SM: 32:21 Yeah. RJ: 32:23 Yeah. And Bob Dylan was born in (19)41. You know, so yeah. So, I do not think age has, I think age had a lot to do with it in terms of who the bulk of the (19)60s spirit hit. But, but as always, it was a lot of the was our, you know, what they call it nowadays, they call them elders, who kind of showed the way. And some of them joined in 100 percent. And some of them just kind of apprec- say, someone like William Burroughs the Beat writer who never really had any use for hippies, you know that he appreciated the fact that his writings are so popular among them, and that he influenced so many people like. I mean, he influenced Bob Dylan, he influenced a lot of- Jim Morrison, he influenced Patti Smith. So, he influenced a lot of musicians and poets to in the way they express themselves. And the dark places or the light places that they went because he had gone there, he had kind of opened the door to those places. The spirit, I think, was mostly I still think it is hard to define, but I think it was basically one that was of a revolutionary hope. And I do not mean revolution, just in political terms. I mean, in like, in the fact that things were going to change 180 degrees, and they were going to be a lot better. And some people did it, some people just wanted to do it by changing their lifestyle like joining communes or hitchhiking around. Other people wanted to do it by become- you know, joining a new religion or finding themselves through yoga and the Maharishi or even Christianity, whatever. And then a lot of people wanted to do it, you know, and then as brought through political change and social change, other people did it. Like if you think about it in the early (19)70s, when, say, David Bowie, Lou Reed, and even Mick Jagger and stuff started doing some of the cross-gender stuff. And that, you know, that was a big following. I think it was bigger in Britain than it was in the States, given the differences in the cultures in relation to that kind of stuff back then. But I think that a lot of people were like, well we cannot, maybe we cannot change the world, but we can definitely change who we are. And that way maybe that will help make the world a better place, a more tolerant place or whatever, you know, and even if that is not an intentional thought, it is kind of like part of the zeitgeist of that whole desire to change and to express oneself in terms of- SM: 32:26 Right. You are really you are, again, a tremendous analysis. As a personal person who was in that era, and I cannot even explain it, it was just a good feeling. I, you know, it is not an arrogance, it is not being arrogant. It is just a good feeling if I am riding on a bus, and I am a college student, or I am wearing my college sweatshirt, back in the (19)60s and (10)70s, wherever, when I went to undergrad and grad, it was just a feeling it was a different time I and there was a lot of trouble, you know, the protests that divisions in America, between Black and white and women and men, and in the gay movement, everything, there so many issues. However, there was a just a feeling that it was a good time to live in. And it was something to do with the spirit of the times that I never saw as a little boy in the (9)50s. And I have never seen since in my life. I do not know if you felt that way. Still there. Ron, still there? RJ: 36:10 Yeah. SM: 36:11 Oh, okay. You okay? RJ: 36:13 Yeah, [inaudible] hear. SM: 36:14 Okay. Any obser- anything to say on that? RJ: 36:18 Yes. I agree with you that I have not seen it since. And I can say, as someone who is coming in you know, that many years younger than you like six or seven, I guess. That as a teenager, you had this feeling like you were going to go, you know, once you got into like high school, you were going to be part of this huge thing. And I mean, I honestly felt like I was part of this huge thing and that anything was possible. And some of that is just being young. But I also think part of it was just kind of the fact that maybe it was because there was such a critical mass of young people who are all and-and we all kind of we are think- our media was not so diverse, that we were all listening to a lot of the same records. And, you know, reading the same newspapers, and, you know, and then also there was really good communication through like the different underground newspapers, and at rock concerts and just going to places where young people went and stuff. SM: 37:18 What do you think was the watershed event of the (19)60s? I think you have already said it, Vietnam? RJ: 37:23 Yes. Yeah. I think Vietnam was, at least for, for most white people. Anyhow, I would be if I was African American, it might be something different. But I would say, but even though even though they were affected, like much more, you know, in terms of demographics and stuff, there might be something different for them. But I would say in terms of, of a white, in terms of white young people, Vietnam was the watershed event. SM: 37:50 When you look at the whole era, the lessons of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what are the lessons, the lessons that we hopefully learn from, not only so we will not make the same mistakes again, or things that we are we wish we could continue to multiply. Just lessons from that era? RJ: 38:15 One lesson would be that you cannot give up. Sometimes- this is in especially in the, I am speaking in the political arena. You cannot give up because you think you won because the people who are opposed to change the kind of change you want, are always ready to pounce back and remove the changes that you have. And I think we have seen that over the decades as stuff has slowly gone back like the- I mean, some things are moved forward, like marijuana is legal in so many states now. And it is not a big deal. Other things have moved backwards. And so, but I would, and then other things I think maybe is that sometimes it might be better to give your opponents a listen. And try to find points of commonality instead of only looking for the points where you disagree. Because if you only focus on the points you disagree, it is going to be really hard to ever come to any kind of any move forward that makes everybody a little bit happy at least. Other than that, I do not know. You know, I cannot, you know, in terms of things that I wish we could keep on doing, I wish there was just a way that we could just keep the feeling of that we are all in this together. But I do not think that exists anymore. I just think it is because that is how our economy goes. Our economy likes to atomize everything and people, there is so more people and some people and people's life- I do not think people have the same idea that they are all living this, in the same, same concept anymore. I think the divisions, I think in some ways that we are going back to the divisions. Some divisions are deeper, like, between, maybe between the very rich and everybody else. And there are different divisions, but I do, you know, and like between the people who think there is nothing wrong say with some of the stuff that, you know, politicians do and those of us who think that politicians are completely on the wrong track, you know, like, especially the right-wing politicians or whatever, you know, the Mitch McConnell and those-those folks. But it is hard to capsulize in just-just, just a couple of things. SM: 40:51 Would you would you be able to, for example, when you look at this Boomer generation, I mean, this is a question on the generation because of the fact they are part, they are the (19)60s in respect. Just a couple adjectives, positive or negative against the generation? RJ: 41:10 Self-centered, that is the negative one on one. Innovative. Potentially, I think they are more caring, I would say more caring is a big thing. You know, no matter how they express it, they express it by working with charity by whether they express it through if they go to church through their church, whether they express it politically, or just, you know, how they think, think about other people. I also think that, overall, this is not, is that they are materialistic. More than you know, even though we tried to get away from it. I think that ultimately, we are materialistic. And I think that is just such an overriding part of our culture, it is almost impossible to get away from it. Unless you do not have the ways to have any material things. And even then, you might be craving them I do not know, you know. I am trying to think of– SM: 42:17 That is pretty good. RJ: 42:22 I think also, and this is just due to what happened. And I do not think we were always that way, because I think we ended up, started off very hopeful. But I think a lot of us ended up quite cynical. So that was just something that happened over time. And maybe it is because we are we have romantic ideas. And then when those romantic ideas either failed, or were quashed- SM: 42:47 Right. RJ: 42:48 -a lot of times you just become a cynic. Because you are kind of like, well, what is the point? Nothing is going to change anyhow, so why should I bother? SM: 42:54 You know, when we see the news for the last, whether it be from 9/11, around (20)00, or any of the bad things that happen on the Daily News in our for the last 18 years in this news century, and then you go back to the (19)90s and everything in the (19)60s was supposed to end all that. The goal of young people is not to have war, and peace and the whole things. And then you see all these terrible things happening, school children being killed, people go into schools and shooting on people, going into synagogues and killing people. The Muslims are an endangered species in many parts of the country, we, you know, have we gotten worse, or you know, and most and then several books have been written by two of the people that I have interviewed, that we have had more war since World War Two, than at any time in the history of the world. And you know, World War Two was supposedly, you know, going into the (19)50s. And the Cold War started. And it is just like, you wonder, wow, we had this great feeling of great spirit for that short period of time and for some reason, these, this youth, the 74 million that were in the boomer generation, what had they done to make any kind of a difference? And some people will say nothing. RJ: 44:14 Yeah. Oh, yeah. There is a lot of people will say nothing, I mean, I hear- you see those things. I do not know, if you use Facebook or anything. You will see the memes on there, blaming everything on the boomer generation, you know, and, you know, there is a validity to that, because it is people our age, but part of that, I think, is because people thought you know, when people think what they think, everybody was the same and they do not understand that there was always at least two opposing viewpoints, even among our generation, you know. A lot of people took, picked and picked and chose what they wanted from each side, you know, and I think that was probably what most people did. Whereas there are some people like myself more and more definitely on the left, and others people who are always definitely on the right. And so, part of that I think is the it was it was the whole thing was with the [inaudible] constant war, I think it was just the way, it was something that happened when after World War Two, and they decided that they wanted to maintain this permanent war economy because that was the only way they could keep everybody employed. And they were not, they were not creative enough to come up with a different way. I mean, you look at someplace like Japan, where they were forbidden to make any weapons, or even have a standing army for decades. And they ended up becoming a very wealthy country too. But only recently have they even been allowed to have a standing army. And so consequently, they spent a lot of their energy developing other stuff, you know, that-that did not require them to constantly go out. And or, did not require them to think that they needed keep on going out [inaudible] war, to get rid of the inventory, or whatever the reason is. SM: 44:20 Yeah, I do. Right. RJ: 46:07 And I do not think any other countries have the idea that they can save the world. Maybe the only other one that might have in its time, in our time, is the Soviet Union. And that was because of, you know, they had an agenda, as well as the United States to both of us was to protect, I believe, was to defend, ultimately, their economic growth for either-either country. SM: 46:29 So, the, a little anecdote, when I lived in San Francisco Bay area, from (19)76, to (19)83, there was this religious minister on the radio, he had his weekly show, I listened to what he, you know, he was good at times, but I will never forget him making a statement one night, on the radio, it was late at night. And he said, he blamed all the problems of the world-- now this is in the late (19)70s, and early (19)80s, all the problems on the world on the boomer generation, and he basically made a- and he is a minister. And he said, "The world will be a much better place when-when we know the last member of the boomer generation has died." And that was across the board statement, whether you are conservative liberal or anything in between, because he was condemning that entire generation, for a lot of the issues that were going on in the Bay Area and the world at that time. And I just that is always kind of stuck with me. I wanted to get back to one other question here. We were talking about that question, a question, learning lessons. Of course, the biggest lesson is whether we as a nation, the United States, learned anything from the Vietnam War. You know, because we have been involved in other wars. I know, when the Gulf War came up in (19)89, a lot of Vietnam veterans are saying, "Do not go to war." Because you know, we are, we should not be going there. And just your and then, of course, we have been in Iraq and Afghanistan, just your thoughts on did, talking about lessons learned or lessons lost, did the United States of America learn anything from the lessons of Vietnam? RJ: 48:07 I think what they learned, I mean, and Colin Powell said it back when he was working for Reagan I think, and he said that you should not go into a country. I mean, these are bad things to learn, I think, but it is what they learned because their military minds. And that is that you do not go into and into a country unless, you know, you can overwhelm them with superior force. And that was kind of what they did when they did that first war in Iraq like (19)91, or whatever, under George Bush, the father. And I think the other thing they learned was to them, was to not let people know what was really going on in the battle zone. And just by controlling the media, even more than it was ever controlled in Vietnam. And I think the other thing they learned was to never have a draft. Because all of those, I mean, all these wars and the war, I mean, we were we have been at war now since well, since they attacked Afghanistan after 9/11. And we do not even really know you and I and most of Americans, most people in the world do not know what countries the US is even fighting in other than Afghanistan. SM: 49:21 Right. RJ: 49:21 And, you know, and that has nothing to do even with, and that does not even begin to mention the places where we supply most of the arms, like in Yemen or something like that. So, I think the-the military establishment and the war establishment, learn very, learned those lessons very well. Basically, if you are going to be a war, do not tell the truth, which is kind of like, you know, that is the standard thing, the first casualty of war is the truth. But this way, they have just learned to not even begin with it, you know, and, and, I mean, if you think of the way we got into the-the (20)03 invasion of Iraq, it was Colin Powell was up there telling outright lies to the Security Council, you know, and he even admitted, yeah, I lied. And then there is this guy, Colonel-Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson. He is a retired Air Force guy. And he just put out a- wrote an article that he put out talking about how he, how he lied for the, to get the US into Iraq. And he is saying do not, we cannot let them do it again to go into Iran. You know. So, as far as the rest of us, I think there was a decent antiwar movement against the first invasion of Iraq, the deserts, I think that was Desert Storm. SM: 50:36 Yep. RJ: 50:37 And then I think there was a really good antiwar movement against-against the second invasion of Iraq, but I think the leaders of the antiwar movement did not, they thought that they could, they decided to go along and go along with the Obama campaign and join the Democratic Party to try to stop the war. And they should have known better because the Vietnam War expanded under-under the Democrats, you know, under LBJ, Kennedy and LBJ. SM: 51:08 Right. RJ: 51:08 So, and that, I think, so I am not sure the leadership of the antiwar movement learned anything, because basically, they allowed the antiwar movement to be led into the, into the, into the Democratic Party. And while Obama did diminish the number of troops in Iraq, there is still, there has always been troops there, and then he just stepped up the aerial and the drone wars and so on. SM: 51:32 Right, right. RJ: 51:32 So, so I am not- it is it is kind of a mixed bag, you know, and I do not know, like, now I wonder if, say, say they decided to invade Venezuela or invade Iran in the next year or two, I wonder how, how and what the any antiwar movement would look like. I mean, I stay in touch with a lot of people who were involved in all the antiwar movements since Viet- since Vietnam, and, you know, and all- whether they started back then or whether they were younger and came-came around- but it is just kind of people who have been, have kind of committed their life [inaudible] anyhow, you know. SM: 52:15 Right. RJ: 52:17 So, I do not, I do not know how many people would come and join any groundswell. It is really difficult to tell, because we are so removed from so many people's lives now. SM: 52:26 Right. RJ: 52:26 Since there is. since there is no draft, that that changes everything I think. SM: 52:32 When you look back, there has been- I do a lot of reading and books and the some of the recent books have said, they are talking about how effective really was the student- I mean, not the antiwar movement as a whole, but the student protest movement on college campuses on ending the war in Vietnam. I would like your thoughts on, did they play a major role in ending the war? The critics will say that, "Oh, no, no, no, that they did not have that much, they were troublemakers, basically." And what really ended, the, when people started going against the war is when their sons came start coming home from the war from people that live in the Midwest and their sons came home in coffins. That is what changed the war. And your thoughts on the student protest movement during the (19)60s and early (19)70s? RJ: 53:23 I think it was very important. I think that it was the bulk of the antiwar movement. I think if that if the student antiwar movement had not existed, a lot of those people whose sons did come home in the coffins, and so on, would never have thought that it was okay for them to be against the war. And they would have just kind of said, well, you know, he died for his country, and they would have gone along with that. But I think the fact that the antiwar movement, which was basically mostly student based because they were the ones, it was people their age was going to be set over there. I think that the fact that they organized the movement, that they helped the movement expand and so on, and that they were not afraid to stand up and deal with whatever they had to deal with, that is, that is, that is what held [inaudible] for antiwar idea, consciousness in the American people. And then I think, you know, I think of my father, he was a military man. He was a career military man. He went to Vietnam, he told me is- this is an interesting irony. But on the, I was 13. On the day that, on the day that LBJ said that he was would not run nor would he accept the nomination for his party for presidency. That was like March 31 (19)68. He, that was the day my dad told me that he had given-given orders to go to Vietnam. SM: 54:51 Oh, wow. RJ: 54:52 And I was just, I was 13. I was starting to I was I was I was precocious in terms of my awareness of the news and everything and, you know, so and I had already started campaigning for Gene McCarthy and I was switching over to Bobby Kennedy once he joined after the, after the New Hampshire primary there, but. But um, and I just remembered that and then he went away, he started starting in July of that of that year (19)68, he went away, because he had to go to these special trainings before we went over to Vietnam. So he was basically gone for like 18 months. And when he came back, I was pretty much hardcore antiwar, and so on. And he never told me this until after my son was born when I was 29. So sometime like mid-mid (19)80s. He, he said, "You know, when I, by the time I was in Vietnam, I knew that it was the wrong war for us to be in." And he said, "But I had no choice." He said, "I had a family to support. I had," you know, and, and basically, you know, that, as you can probably guess, that was a major source of contention between me and my father, the whole time I was in high school, and we would have some pretty intense arguments about it and stuff, you know, and it kind of made me question. You know, ee was a very, he was raised Catholic, he is a very traditional Catholic. So always made me question the morality of somebody who could be involved in that at the same time, the, the this, “Thou shalt not kill and all that kind of stuff,” you know what I mean, so. So, I think and I think he was on the conservative edge of things. And I think he [inaudible] when he told me that he said, "yeah," he says, "If I had been a civilian," he said, "I would not have gone to a protest." But I would have signed every petition, and I would have talked to congress people. But [inaudible] Kennedy [inaudible]. SM: 56:57 One of the kind of semi controversies, it is happening today, and I have seen amongst Vietnam veterans now. I go to the Vietnam Memorial a lot, and I listen to all the state and I- it is a nonpolitical entity, they talk about it is in remembrance of those who served and died. And, and they are heroes. When the when the Vietnam, it is well known fact that when Vietnam vets came home, they were treated terribly by this country as a whole. And but the question I have always felt, in my experience with the antiwar movement, is I never felt that the anti the genuine antiwar activists were against the troops, they were against the leaders who sent the troops. And there is still this perception out there that when they came home from Vietnam, it was the antiwar movement that treated them poorly. I do not think so. But could you correct me or your feelings on this? I thought it was. I thought it was America as a whole. Because of this perception that Vietnam vets were baby killers, the My Lai massacre, post-traumatic stress disorder, they are all crazy, all these things. And so, I thought that was the reason why, but you know, your thoughts. RJ: 58:14 I think that I agree with what you are saying essentially, in terms of that it was the, it was the government of the United States that failed the, failed the veterans. Failed the guys coming back. It is for me, having grown up growing up in the military, and when I was in high school, doing a lot of work and hanging out with a lot of GIS who are against the war a lot. Where I was in Germany, a lot of the GIS were finishing up their two years enlistment because they were just draftees. And so, they would, they would have gone to boot camp, and then gone to Vietnam for a year. And then they would spend like their last 10 months being a clerk typist somewhere, you know, and a lot of us ended up in Germany In Germany. And so, I knew them through like, you know, rock music and, you know, to smoking pot, and just like, working with some of them on-on new antiwar stuff, and so on. And, you know, they were a select group, they were not the majority of, you know, just like most people that most people are not politically involved, these guys were politically involved. And, you know, what I [inaudible] them, is they were very clear that it was, you know, the people they did not like, was the officers and the politicians. And it was the politicians who could have treated them one way or the other. And they basically stalled for so long to even get the PTSD considered a valid psychological disorder, you know, and the only reason that really happened was because of who [inaudible] the war constantly lobbying and so on to, to get recognized by the APA as, to go into the DSM, whatever you think of the DSM that is, you know, that is what the where they have the list of disorders. So, I think Americans in general just wanted to forget about it, kind of the way they, right now I work part time in a public library. And a lot of the people who come in every day are people who do not have a home. And a lot of them are vets from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. SM: 1:00:23 Wow. RJ: 1:00:23 And I see the same thing, I see the same thing happening. SM: 1:00:27 Wow, that is really sad. RJ: 1:00:28 People do not care about them. And these men, I think, probably have, I do not know, because I was never in war, thank God. But some of these men come in, and they have some incredible mental health issues, not to go not to say about other issues that they are just finding out, you know, cancers or something that happened from being in a war zone and so on. And they self-medicate on very heavy levels, you know, like, kind of like some of, you probably had buddies who did the same thing, who came back from Vietnam. I know I did. I had like two or three of my friends who are dead by the end of this, who two of them enlisted. And one of them got drafted. And they went to Vietnam. They were a couple years older than me in high school. And they all, one of them overdosed on heroin, the other two committed suicide. So that so you know, how the high rate of suicide now- SM: 1:01:17 Yes. RJ: 1:01:19 -among Iraq vets and so on. And so I kind of it is kind of, you know, American politicians love to make Bernie Sanders and I am not politicking for him or anything, but he will say, if you do not want to make if you do not want to take care of your vets, do not make wars, you know, and because his point is that, you know, Americans like their wars, but they do not really care about the vets. And when I talk with my dad about it, who used to be when he first got out of the military in (19)79, he used to be kind of [inaudible] on Vietnam vets who are complaining, but then he starts doing his church, he started doing counseling for vets who are applying to get back into the workforce. And, and, you know, he wanted to do it, because he was a vet himself that he, you know, he understands that military code and all that. And that, even if they even if GIS did not like the military, they still respect a man who had a higher rate. So, there is that whole thing that happens within the military training and everything. And it really changed his mind about it. He realized, like, No, you know, we did him wrong. I think that is part of what happened in Vietnam. And I think it is what is, you know, it happened in previous wars. But I think what the difference between previous wars and Vietnam was that Vietnam became such an unpopular war. But also, at the same time, there was a lot. It was the first time that a war had taken place where people continued to chall- where the challenges to it got bigger as the war went on as opposed to other wars where they were like, say World War One, there was a lot of opposition to the US going in and just all around the world. But once the war started, most [inaudible] did their thing. Same with World War Two. Whereas Vietnam, nobody really even knew it was beginning but by the time it was [cuts off] SM: 1:03:09 Still there? RJ: 1:03:10 Yeah, I am just going in and out. Are you there? SM: 1:03:14 Yeah, I am here. Got it okay? RJ: 1:03:19 My phone is funny, sometimes. I am trying to stay in one place, but I am not sure what is going on. SM: 1:03:24 I hear you now. RJ: 1:03:26 Okay. So, I think that the vets bore the brunt of it. You know, and I but I do not think it was the antiwar movement, any more than it was any other part of the United States. SM: 1:03:37 Have you changed your feeling about the boomer generation over the years, just changed from when you were younger that spirit and now today, have you just devolved differently when you think about that whole generation? [phone rings] RJ: 1:03:53 Well, not really, I still think that it played as you know, as a generation. It- SM: 1:04:00 That is a noise in the background, forget it. RJ: 1:04:02 Okay. As a generation it did, it took advantage of the time it was in and it made things it changed the world for the better- in substantial ways, mostly for the better, I think. I think I do not know, climate change is a tough thing to get a handle on, you know, get your head around. But I think in a lot of terms of people being able to fulfill their lives and people granting more opportunity for more people at least in the United States [inaudible] SM: 1:04:42 Is your phone breaking up? RJ: 1:04:48 I think this is, I am not sure why. Yeah. SM: 1:04:50 You got enough power in your phone? RJ: 1:04:53 Yeah. I am plugged in. I am plugged in. SM: 1:04:57 We are about a little, about halfway through that okay? RJ: 1:05:01 Yeah, yep. SM: 1:05:01 Yeah-yeah. And I am going to get to some questions about your two books in a couple more questions. But I got a few more here that. Let us see here. Could you describe, a lot of times the boomer generation and the student- young people in the (19)60s used to say they were the most unique generation in American history is because of the attitudes they had, that they were going to be the best change agents for good in our society, was that arrogance on the part of the boomer generation and the students of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, that they were going to be different than any other generation, before or after? RJ: 1:05:09 Okay. The I think it was era, it is not necessarily a bad arrogance, I think they would have been told that growing up, that they were special. And I think the fact that so many of them took it to heart and tried to do the right thing with it, it is actually it is kind of like trying to make that arrogance air out you know. But yeah, I think it is a little bit arrogant. I- it is hard. I think it is too early to tell whether or not it was true, to be honest. But I also, you know, I have a son who is 35 have a daughter who is 25. And, you know, their mom and I, you know, even when we lived in different houses and stuff, we were always involved in, very involved in their parenting and so on. And she is a few years younger than me. So, she is a little bit different generation a little bit later in the boomer generation. So, but I think that their values are the same, but I do not see them as intense on trying to change anything, they are just trying to figure out how to pay their bills and stuff like that. And part of it is because of the way college is structured now, you have some people kids owe more than that, they owe more than I ever paid for a house, just to go through college. So, you know. SM: 1:06:58 What did you know, and I will close on this, this particular area of questioning what made the generation different beyond their size, we all know, everybody talks about how big, you know, the boomer generation after World War Two, you know, babies are booming like crazy? And we all know about the size. And that is what they talked about for years, it was in the (19)50s, how big this generation is, what made them so different? RJ: 1:07:21 I think part of it was the media. And the advent of television and the fact that by what, (19)68 pretty much, so many homes had TVs in them. And the television industry at that time was so centralized. So, we were all seeing a lot of the same stuff. And there was only two or three out, there were CBS, ABC and NBC and Metro media. So, there was not a lot of different interpretations of what was going on. And then I also think that the school systems in most neighborhoods, mostly white neighborhoods, once again, I think we are very well funded. And a lot of the teachers who were teaching were people with a breadth of experience, and they wanted, you know, there was a lot of innovative stuff there for them to use. So that kind of expanded the way we thought. And I also just think the access that we had, it is nothing compared to what kids have now. But we were the first generation to have access to, you know, expendable cash. Um, so there is a whole culture that grew up around us, which did not really happen before. And they always talk about, you know, Chuck Berry, Elvis and Bill Haley as like being the beginning of the youth culture. And by the time, by the time of the late (19)60s, it was like the counterculture. And then by the mid (19)70s, it started breaking up into smaller subcultures. But still, we were buying the bulk of the records, and we were, we were determining what wrote what route the record company and the movies, we are going to go. You know, I mean, if you think of so many movies that were geared towards the youth, you know, the young generation at that time, whether they were silly movies, or whether they were more serious movies like Joe or The Graduate or something, you know, or Easy Rider, they were still geared because that was a market. So, I think it was a combination, the size definitely made a difference, because that meant that people who wanted to make money knew that they had, they could make a lot of money and they sold the right thing. And so then that spread it even more, but it also they that means they had to figure out a way to package the ideas that we were representing or that we were expressing and then sell them back to us and by selling them back to us, they spread it like I was saying earlier with what by the fact that they took the Woodstock movie, made Woodstock [inaudible] all over the world [inaudible] Woodstock generation that [inaudible], you know. SM: 1:09:53 It has often so often been quoted in a lot of the history books, particularly the ones written in the (19)90s on the (19)60s that the, the-the boomers or the actually the boomer generation were truly activists or involved in some sort of activity linked to the Vietnam War, Civil Rights, the women's movement, the Native American movement, Hispanic movement, environmental movement, and the gay and lesbian movement, were that they were linked to the issues of the day, the saying that they were, there were only 7 percent involved. And I thought, well, that is still a lot of people when you are talking 74 million. But is it true? Or is this another way that some writers whether they be to the right, or people who are critical of the left, is this another way of lessening the impact that this generation or that 7 percent have had on American scene since the (19)60s? RJ: 1:10:49 I think it is a way of lesson I mean, who knows what the real numbers were and who knows how they arrived at those numbers. I mean, if you think about if you try to take add together, people who went to protests or people who said they went to protest, or people who joined SDS, or people who were involved in some civil rights organization, or an Earth Day or the, you know, the lesbian, gay movement or something, it is, it is really hard to say, because what do they mean by commitment? I mean, everybody, most people were affected by it on some level, and some people might have gone to one protest, but never gone to another one. And, you know, so that that is hard. I think it is a way to try to diminish it, because I think it kind of takes away the fact that most major moments of social upheaval, are usually only involving a few people. Like the American Revolution did not involve most of the most of the colonists, the French Revolution and Russia revolution did not either. So, it is hard to, it is hard to say, but I, when I read those books, when I read those numbers and stuff, my first reaction is like, I do not believe it. And then my second reaction is, well, how did you come up with these, with that number, you know. SM: 1:12:05 Very good, good, another good analysis there. I, this is a question that is one, been one of the most important one I have asked, during this whole process of interviewing people over all the years, I have been one that is always wondered about the healing process. Do you feel that the generation of boomers the, or the young people of that era and even America, and certainly Vietnam veterans, do you feel that this generation and the group, that healing as it relates to the war and other divisions of the time, that we have not gotten over it even today, and, and I asked this in terms of the Vietnam memorial was built to heal the nation. Remember, Jan Scruggs wrote the book, "To Heal a Nation." RJ: 1:12:52 Right. SM: 1:12:53 He is what he tried to do it to heal the Vietnam veterans who served in that war, their families, and the loved ones of those who died. And, and I think he is pretty comfortable that that wall has done a lot with respect to healing within that group. However, do you feel that we as a nation, and I know we are talking years, Vietnam now ended in (19)75. So, we are talking a long time ago. But do you think we are still having problems with healing? Or do you think a lot of the people still have not healed from that war and are going to go with to the grave with the animosity and dislike toward the people who disagreed with them over that their involvement in the war and the, you know, protests against the war? It is the whole healing process as a nation. You think, is it important, or is it, it is not an issue anymore? RJ: 1:13:50 I think it is still going on. And I think every once in a while, a politician comes along, who breaks open the wound, and kind of pokes itself [inaudible] or whatever, and riles up people who, who they will never forgive on both sides. And then it starts all over and then we have this other moment of soul searching. But then the way I kind of look at it, too, is healing from a trauma like that is never going to be easy. And it is a long-time process. I think some of the people who poke the wound are people who were, who were not even alive at the time, but they have this idea, this ideological idea, and I think it is mostly from the right but I know also, it is also from the left, but and who will bring it up to try to because it is kind of like a shortcut, a metaphor for certain divisions that have always existed in this country between the you know, the left wing and the right wing, and people in the middle and so on. I mean, I speak personally and people, you know, my father and I had a big gap and we did not talk to each other for a few years and stuff like that and Vietnam was the crux of the issue and his role. But you know, we are, we are, we are way past that and like, I know that most of his friends that he stays in touch with from the military, you know, a lot of his lot of his friend's kids had the same kind of issue with their father. And that is long gone, you know, you, you know, you have their grandkids and things change, you know, so I think, I think, I think on a personal level, and I just think of like people that I talked to, or that I have talked to over the years, whether when I was organizing for, you know, stuff, and whether or not they supported me, whether or not they supported my side or still were on their side, I think that there is, we have, there is an ability to talk with each other now that did not exist then. And sometimes that might be all you can hope for, because talking is crucial to anything. But I think there will always be those on both sides, for good reason, in their mind, that will never let go. And they will go to the grave, angry at the stuff that went down, and the other side as they perceive them, and so on. But I do not it is kind of like the racial thing. I do not think the racial thing is as bad as it used to be either. I mean, you look around it, you see so many interracial couples, you see so many sports teams that, you know, kids are your kids or your grandkids or some relatives of yours, kids or whatever play on. And, you know, it is like, kids of all races, and they are, you know, they are playing together sports, and there is, and some of them are hanging out after school and stuff. So, so I think it is kind of changed. I am not saying it is gone, because I do not think it is. And like I said, I think there are those politicians and others who bring it up every once a while for-for their own reasons. And so, when they do that, it does get people riled up. I mean I admit, it gets me riled up when I see somebody. Like, Henry Kissinger still pisses the hell out of me. SM: 1:17:05 Oh, yeah. He does everybody [laughs]. Yes. RJ: 1:17:07 Yeah, and every time I see him on kind of, like, you know, someone you know, you know, I do not need- someone needs to drive a wooden stake through his heart because I think he is a vampire. But you know, you know what I mean? Like, if so, and Kissinger lives in his own world, so I do not think he really cares, because he kind of has such an arrogance. I do not think he thinks he is even human, but that is a whole other story. SM: 1:17:26 You need to read, there is a brand-new book out called Reckless, you need to read it. It is about him. RJ: 1:17:32 Oh, really? Okay. Thanks for the recommendation. SM: 1:17:33 Yeah, it is called "Reckless." You will see it in the bookstores. RJ: 1:17:36 Yeah sure, maybe my library has it. If not, I will order it. Yeah. Cool. Okay. SM: 1:17:41 And he actually has written a book now called "Kissinger on Kissinger," when I go to Barnes and Noble I turn the book, I put the back side up on the book [laughs]. RJ: 1:17:51 Yeah-yeah. SM: 1:17:53 The generation gap was something that was all talked about in the (19)60s, I mean, this generation gap. In fact, one of the people I interviewed was the guy on the front cover of Life magazine, who was had his picture with the glasses on talking with his father. And I actually interviewed him, had a great interview. And, but that was a really good book that he wrote too and they healed, I mean, but my main [inaudible] questions, you basically answered it, because the generation gap that we all heard about and experienced. And with respect, do you think it is really gotten a lot better between those people within families in particular? RJ: 1:18:31 Yeah, I really do. I mean, I just think of things, you know, you get used to each other. That is one thing, you know. And then you know, something- I was I was down visiting my dad, he was in the DC area. I was down, visiting him last December and I happened to be over at his house when one of his old buddies came by, some- somebody who retired a couple of years before he did. And I had not seen him since he was still in uniform. And I was still I was, like, 22 years old or something. And he, we got to talking because he I was asking how I was friends with one of his daughters, and we got to talking about his kids. And he was talking about his grandkids and everything. And you know, and he looked at me and like, my hair is still really long. And he looked at me, he goes, Yeah, you know, he joked about it. I said, "Well, I will probably never cut it." He goes, "Yeah, that is because your father made you keep it short the whole time you lived at his house." And I said, "Yes, that is very true." And then my dad had him both, actually said to me, as our conversation went on, they go, "You know, Ron, you were more right about things than we were." And I thought that was interesting. I mean, he still has his opinions about the stuff that will never change, like about abortion and contraception and stuff like that, you know, but he said about the war and about-about who was really running the country and what-what the reasons they were, he said that they did not have the country's best interests in mind. And I used to get into arguments with him and that guy all the time. So that was kind of cool. Like, you know, to be, to be able to stay aware, study and look back on what you thought, and be able to change your mind. And I, and I have done the same thing. You know, there is some things that I was like really adamant about. And I was like, you know, really there is nothing, you know, they were right. There is something to be said about some of these things that have been around for generations and stuff, you know. So, it is kind of like, we will get to this point where he will say, "I grew up during World War Two." And you know, he was in high school during World War Two. And he goes, "I grew up during World War Two. And you know, there was a clear enemy. And then after that, we were told the Communists were the enemy." And he says that, "As it turned out, maybe they were not as big of an enemy as we thought they were, and what maybe we should have dealt with it differently." He said, "But when you are in the thick of things you do not know." And I said, "Yeah, well, that is kind of like the same thing for me." I was in the thick of things, and there were some things that I thought were great that I found out, well, maybe I should not have been champion, like, you know, Communist China or something, you know, what I mean, you know, that I definitely was, but you know, I would, I would just like to have, I would just to rile up my dad, I would have pictures of Mao on my wall, you know, just because just to make him see, you know, so you know, stuff like that. Now, I would never do that because, you know, Mao did great things, but he did a lot of terrible things, too. So, you know. SM: 1:21:16 It is like me, when I first took a job at West Chester University in (19)87, the first person I met was a professor in political science, the chair, I went into his office, and he had a picture of Lenin behind his office. And he is, and then he had a picture of a man that was on his desk. And he said, before we even started the, to talk about it, because I was just meeting him for the first time he said, "The man be- on the wall behind me is my hero. And the man that is in that picture on my desk is the, is-is my enemy. I despise him." Well, that was the President of Bing- of Westchester University. RJ: 1:21:53 Oh, really? Oh, that is funny. [laughter] SM: 1:21:57 He was just rubbing me the wrong way, he just was testing me. He says, "I was only kidding." [laughter] RJ: 1:22:03 That is great. SM: 1:22:04 But, you know, it was a little bit of humor there. RJ: 1:22:07 Yeah. SM: 1:22:07 I have one other question, then I am going to get into your books. The-the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65. How, how important was that movement in terms of the whole (19)60s era in terms of activism against, you know, the war and civil rights? A lot has been written recently about that Free Speech Movement, Ronald Reagan came to national recognition because of his war against the students at Berkeley. But your thoughts on that Free Speech Movement and the impact that it had on the (19)60s? RJ: 1:22:42 I think the key thing, I mean, lot of the organizers were-were men and women who had been down doing [inaudible] registration out in the South. [cuts off] SM: 1:22:58 Still there? Hold on. RJ: 1:23:03 Okay. SM: 1:23:04 Yeah, we are back. Yep. RJ: 1:23:05 Okay. I think that it helped them see that the issues that they had been working on down South, were also related to issues that were their issues at home. And I think the whole time when-when they took [inaudible], and did the speeches for that 18 hours, or whatever it was, I think that was one of the most empowering things that young people could see that they could, that they could control the discussion for-for the while, and it kind of it was, in terms of empowerment, I think it was one of the key moments for the white student movement, especially. SM: 1:23:44 You know, still there? RJ: 1:23:46 Yeah-yeah. SM: 1:23:47 You-you hit the word there, empowerment. When we brought Tom Paine Hayden to our campus, sadly, he is passed now. But six years ago, not six years ago, 10 years ago, I brought him just before I left Westchester. And he met with all of our student leaders, and we had dinner and he went to dinner and-and he was listening to what the students, he asked, "What power do you have? Do you have a voice here on campus?" And they all said, "Oh, yeah, we are involved in doing budgets, and we are on committees, we are appointed." And he is sitting there in amazement, he is shaking his head. No, he comes back and says, "I am not asking you about what power you have. I want to know if you are truly empowered." And then he went on to define empowerment. And they then they start shaking their heads. It is like, I do not know if I liked this guy. And so, it is a difference of generations here but what true empowerment means. Could you define the difference between power and empowerment, in when you discuss the (19)60s, especially those people who are in the antiwar movement? RJ: 1:24:56 Power is something that somebody in my mind powers something that somebody else has. And some people try to take it for themselves. And they may or may not succeed, but you are not, empowerment is something that comes from within an individual and within a group. And when you realize that you as, as a group, or you as a class, or you as a gender or as a movement, have the power to change things without asking to do it. I mean, that is to me is kind of what I see. Whereas power is something you have to ask someone else to give you. SM: 1:25:30 Very good. I agree. I am going to ask some questions about your book right now. I know you wrote the book, "The Way the Wind Blew." And there is a, there is a comment on the back of the book that I want you to respond to. You probably remember this. Jacobs argues that the group's eventual demise, this is the Weathermen. RJ: 1:25:50 Yeah. SM: 1:25:50 The group's actual eventual demise resulted in the, I will think I will read it from the book, I cannot read my own writing. My goodness. See here. He argues that the group's eventual demise resulted as much from the contradictions of his politics as from the increasingly repressive FBI attention. Could you go into detail on that? RJ: 1:26:14 Yeah. In terms of politics, the original statement that you do not know a Weatherman statement was they basically, it is-I am trying to figure out a way to do without using too much jargon. They basically put the Black liberation movement as the as the vanguard of any revolution in the United States, above the working class, above any class. And then they also saw as, then they also saw themselves. And that is the fundamental basis of their, of their argument, and that they are the only that the thing that what the white movement could do was to support the Black liberation movement, especially as represented by the Black Panthers, and a couple other similar ultra-left organizations. Then after they did the Days of Rage, where they, they thought they were going to get 10,000 people, and they barely got 1000, at best, and they got in fights with, they started fights with the cops, and the cops beat them up and stuff like that. And then they went underground. And there, that was when they started calling. Everybody, except for people who agreed with them, pigs, and that if you were either on their side, or you are on the wrong side, and you know, you know, and that did not just mean policemen or politicians or businessmen or people who, you know, it meant the people who worked in the businesses, it meant GIS, it meant other students who disagreed with their politics or whatever. And then there was the whole contradiction when they decided to kind of, when they went underground. And there was a battle between, there was a strong debate between the different cells as to whether or not they should say whether or not they should use bombs to kill people. And as you probably know, like, they had the bomb that blew up in the townhouse in Greenwich Village, was intended to kill a bunch of soldiers at-at a dance at Fort Dix. Fortunately, fortunately, in the long run, and for those soldiers and their girlfriends, it did not kill anybody but three of the Weather Underground. But there is even within that group of people who are working in that townhouse, there was at least two of the four who did not agree with the idea to kill people, they just wanted to blow up, like, you know, like a recruiting office or, you know, put a bomb in the Pentagon or something like that, and call ahead and not and not kill, not hurt anybody. Because they wanted to have more symbolic attacks at that level. And then the other thing was when they came, then another contradiction that came up was when they decided to try to organize young people and the whole, they latched on to the counterculture and so on. And that became greater and greater, because there was two very different factions in the group. It is hard to say who represented who but I would say that Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn and the California group were more into the counterculture. And the New York group with David Gilbert and some of those people, some of the people from Boston, were more into maintaining a hardcore Marxist Leninism and not-not bombing as much and trying to actually do other kinds of underground activities. And so, there was all these contradictions that were bubbling up and what they, they came to a fruition after the United States left Vietnam because that was the main reason why Weatherman- Weather Underground existed was because of the Vietnam War. I mean, you know, a lot of them had about half of them that started in the anti-racist movement. But when the war came along, they became many of the leaders in SDS of the antiwar movement. And they would tie the anti-racist and the antiwar movements together a lot of as anti-imperialist movements. But then, when, when that happened, when the United States left Vietnam in April 30 (19)75, the group was pretty small by then. And there was a lot of debate within the group about where they should go next. Some members wanted to, Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, Jeff Jones, and a few of the other ones, some of the original founders who are still in the group, they wanted to go above ground. They wanted to turn themselves in, try to work out a deal where they only did a few months each or something. And then organize with the above ground or popular united front organizations they had to go into the working class and start organizing women workers, African American workers, Latino workers and young workers to try to create a new militant labor movement. But then there was this other faction that was led by an old guy who had, his name was Clayton Van Lydegraf, he had been kicked out of the Communist Party, kicked out of the progressive Labor Party, because he was too ultra-left. He was basically a guy who believed in propaganda of the deed, you know, so he convinced another group to go and start bombing again, and they got infiltrated. And that is how that group got arrested. SM: 1:26:25 Wow. RJ: 1:26:45 And then, you know, and so, so there are so many contradictions within the group. And then when you combine it with the fact that the Feds were kind of, the Feds were pretty close to catching them, and then they would not be because I think when the church committee hearings happened, a lot of those a lot of those investigations that were being conducted illegally had to be shut down, which is the only way you are going to catch someone like the Weatherman anyhow, because they had a very good underground network and so on. So, I hope that answers your question. SM: 1:32:15 Yes, it does, I think Mark Rudd was in that group too, was not he? RJ: 1:32:19 Yeah. And he left, he left back, like in (19)70 right after they were underground. He was underground for a little while. And then they, the women in the group asked him to leave the group because of his sexist sex- hardcore sexism. And basically, he left. And you know, he never snitched on anybody or anything. But he left. And you know, he is actually his book, he wrote a book. SM: 1:32:42 Yeah, it is a good book. RJ: 1:32:44 It is a very good book. And, you know, if you have the time, while you are reading, to check out a few of the different memoirs that have come out, they all, read them together, you kind of get an idea of the different, you know, they are all very intelligent individuals. And so, you get an idea of stuff that went on, within the group and so on. And then also on a personal level, Kathy Wilkerson's is very good too. She is one of the few women who has written-written a book on it. And it is a, it is a really good book, she sticks a lot more to the politics than some of the, some of the guys' memoirs do and stuff too. SM: 1:33:18 Well, I have had a chance to meet Mark at Kent State. He is and I really liked him. He was a– RJ: 1:33:22 Well, I heard he is a really nice guy. I have talked to him on the phone a couple of times, he helped me, like when I was writing my book, no one was talking about the Weather Underground. And they did not really know who I was. And my context, the guy who was like I was going to I had gone back to get my undergraduate degree. I was like, in my late 30s. And I wrote that as my senior thesis out at Evergreen College, and the guy who was my, one of my advisors, was a guy who had been in the antiwar movement in Boston. And he had been arrested down in San Diego, and charged with conspiracy to, the FBI tried to kill him and stuff. But um, and so but he had always disagreed with the Weather Underground. So, he only knew a couple people that would talk to me because most of them did not, they still had these grudges from the (19)70s, you know what I mean. But through him, so I was only able to talk to a few people, I was able to talk to Bill Ayers. And then I talked to a few guys who were still underground that I met actually two friends of mine, who knew them because they sold LSD to them. SM: 1:34:29 I have met I have met Bill Ayers at Kent State as well. And-and then, of course, Bernadine, I interviewed her. RJ: 1:34:37 Oh, that have been interesting. I have never really, I have met her like a couple of times, but I have never been able to sit down and talk with her or anything. SM: 1:34:43 Well, I did a phone interview with her. And then I went to New York to take her picture along with David McReynolds, I mean, he just died last year. RJ: 1:34:51 Oh yeah. Yeah-yeah. SM: 1:34:52 And I took pictures of them together. It was, it is an interesting side note, I will send you an email on it, but I am still going to get her interview approval back. And of course, David died. So, I got to go through his brother. There is no question you feel that SDS died because of the Weatherman, correct? RJ: 1:35:10 No, I do not, I think SDS was going to die anyhow. SM: 1:35:15 Okay. RJ: 1:35:16 I think it was, it had [cuts out] SM: 1:35:23 Still there? RJ: 1:35:28 You there? SM: 1:35:29 Yep, I am here. RJ: 1:35:30 Okay. In (19)68, you could see it when they started to go down the, when they started to become more Marxist, Leninist, and so on, they, they were going to automatically cut out a lot of folks who did not, who might-might have been interested in what Marx had to say, but we are not going to call themselves Leninists. You know, and they might have found Marx a good way to analyze capitalism, to find a fault with capitalism. But they were not going to, they were not going to say that they were pro, you know, dictatorship or proletariat, or anything. So, I think they were kind of at a at their end anyhow, it is too bad that nothing really came after them that had the popular groundswell of them and so on. Which is not to say that groups like Weather Underground and the progressive Labor Party cert- they certainly helped make that end come quicker, I think. You know, because I think if SDS had been around when Kent State happened as the SDS pre- Weather Underground, pre-progressive Labor Party, I think those protests might have taken a different turn. I do not, I think Kent State might have still happened. But [inaudible] they would have been able to sustain them past the original outrage and actually make it make a lot more of a long-term difference. But who knows, you know, it is one of those alternative history things. SM: 1:36:53 One of the things you state in the book, I perused through it, I got to read it real, sit down, and really, I was reading it fast. Is that you talk about the, it is not about the personalities in the weather, weather men, it is about the political history of the organization. And there is a quote in there that the weather's insistence on an ant- what really affected you and you were influenced by them, is because of the weather's insistence on an anti-racist, anti-imperialist, anti-sexist analysis was fundamental to my political development. Is, is that a correct statement? RJ: 1:37:30 Yeah, I think it is still true. I mean, then, because I used to read a lot of their, their newspapers and so on, especially when I was living in New York City, they were harder to get over in [inaudible]. But by the time I was living in New York City and stuff, and I was in a different group, but between their stuff, and some of the other groups, that was pretty fundamental to me becoming to choosing the politics, I thought, because they were trying to figure out a way to bring all three of those together. And some groups were more just on the anti-sexism. Others were more just on the anti-racism, and others were more just on the antiwar. And they, the Weather Underground and a couple other organizations that were on the, I guess they would be considered extreme left for sure. Not as extreme left as Weather Underground. But over definitely over in that direction. I think they were the groups that were trying to figure out a way to combine all those and make it fit to (19)73 America. SM: 1:38:28 Yeah, I am going to go into your second book now, which was "Daydream Sunset, the Sixties Counterculture in the Seventies." Could you define, I have heard a lot of people talking about this counterculture. And could you define what you mean as a counterculture? And, and I noticed you mentioned it was centered on LSD and marijuana, it was crucial to the counterculture. Could you go on to that? RJ: 1:38:53 Yeah, I would say the counterculture was a culture that was made up primarily of white middle classes at the beginning, and it spread to the working-class youth as time went on. It was founded in person, the idea of like an, it evolved from the Beats, the whole Beatniks and the Beat stuff, you know, and that is where they got the marijuana from, and that is where they got, you know, some of the other drugs from, but I think it evolved organically, or through a combination of economic situation at the time, to the fact that there are so many young people gathering together in different places, whether that was the workplace or college or high school, whatever. And then I really think LSD made a big difference. And I would say, in large part because of people like Timothy Leary, and Ken Kesey, who proselytized LSD, they both did it in their own way. But, so and then the, the easy availability of LSD for a while and the fact that places like Greenwich Village and the Haight-Ashbury in San Fran- in New York and San Francisco respectively, were gathering places for young for young kind of footloose youth who did not want to work much and so on. And those kinds of scenes just kind of gathered and they spread throughout-throughout the country and throughout the western world [inaudible] into other parts of the world. But I think fundamentally, it was a movement involved in personal freedom, and in discovering personal freedom, and at the same time, loosening the bonds of sexism, and [inaudible] periods of puritanism. And also, in trying to figure out a new way to live together in a postindustrial world. SM: 1:40:48 You also mentioned, and you talk about the tragedies, particularly around (19)70 of Kent State, Jackson State, all happening in May of that year. And of course, that was all linked to Nixon and the Cambodian invasion, so many books have been written on it. Nixon still has stated it was never an invasion, we had already been in Cambodia before. And it was just, and it was not very, very long. But of course, the anti-war movement had different feelings on that. In terms of, were they part of the end of the counterculture? RJ: 1:41:23 I think it was part of the politicization of the counterculture, because I think the counterculture kind of carried on for a while. It was like, it kind of went from sex, drugs, rock and roll and politics, just to sex, drugs and rock and roll. I mean, if you think of the mid (19)70s, you know, I mean you could kind of look at it in terms of the bands. You know, you went from bands that were political and intent to bands like Led Zeppelin, you know no, I mean, Led Zeppelin's fine, but they were definitely not a political band in any way, shape, or form, you know. And then, and then a lot, you think of some of the other music. SM: 1:41:58 Disco. RJ: 1:41:58 You know, some of the bands- SM: 1:41:59 You got disco too. [laughs] RJ: 1:42:02 Disco started coming in, disco started like, among the gays, and African Americans, you know, but then when it got taken over by mainstream America, pretty much with that [inaudible] Saturday Night Fever, was that what it was called? SM: 1:42:15 Yes-yes. RJ: 1:42:16 And that kind of, that all the sudden, you heard disco everywhere. And you know, I was not ever a fan of disco, because I really, it just was not for me. [inaudible] SM: 1:42:32 Could you say that, could you repeat that again? I missed it. RJ: 1:42:37 You know, as well as me that disco was everywhere, it was almost impossible to go someplace where there was not a disco club. SM: 1:42:44 Right. RJ: 1:42:44 So. SM: 1:42:46 You also have it here, the and I, it is another quote, the period we call the (19)60s is as much a myth as it is a truth as much maligned as it is championed. Want to explain that any further? RJ: 1:43:01 Yeah, sure. I mean, it really happened. That is the truth part. But what really happened depends on who you were and what you saw, and where you were, and how you [inaudible], you know. And in terms of history, it is definitely as you know, you read a lot of books and you know, from, you know, it depends on who's telling you the history. And so, and then the missed part is just the myth. You know, I mean, it is like, Woodstock was this great, wonderful festival. And it was, but at the same time, a lot of that is myth. And that is where it moves into that. And [inaudible], we have talked about that. It has continued to maligned. I mean, there are people who know from that preacher you hear, that radio preacher you are talking about all the way up to today like Pat Robertson and people like that who say, and Rush Limbaugh, who say that everything bad happened because of the (19)60s, you know. SM: 1:43:55 Right. RJ: 1:43:56 So, and then there is other people on the other side who champion it on a you know, who still live like with the rose-colored glasses. I think most people who are intimately involved in it- people like Wavy Gravy, people like the Grateful Dead, most of the band that made up the Grateful Dead, and all the regular stuff, they probably all have just people every day, [inaudible] I am, they all have their own different viewpoints, some less cynical than others, probably and some very jaundiced. SM: 1:44:30 I want to I want to quote something from the front of your book, and I am going to put it in the record for the interview and I thought it was very well written here. It is about Jackson Browne. And this is about the disintegration of the counterculture. Do you mind if I quote this? RJ: 1:44:45 Oh, go for it. SM: 1:44:46 Yeah, it is, it is on the very beginning. In the introduction, songwriter Jackson Browne had a similar understanding of the disintegration of the counterculture. His two was both apocalyptic and lyrical. Brown's three songs cycle of "For Every Man," "Before the Deluge" and "Pretender" appears on three successive disks. And it is a story of a generation and a culture trying to change the world while facing an apocalypse of war and environmental devastation, and ultimately, a ceding to the hegemony of the world and the system that tried so hard to change. "The Pretender," which is the final song of the cycle is a depressing admission that the system of corporate television, war, and nine to five jobs was more powerful than the world of the counterculture hoped to forge if only because it had more developed Foundation. The song itself is a tale of surrendering to that world, and numbing oneself to the reality via sex, drugs and Rock and Roll. Well, I that you wrote that. That is great. Any-any other thoughts on that? Because, you know, this is again, the power of music, like go way back in our interview, how powerful music can be. You talk about Hunter Thompson in here too you, we really made it I mean, we have talked about, I always tell students, the dots, the dots that connect the dots, and music is part of that. And if you listen to a lot of that music of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, you will see the dots connected within the music. Any other thoughts on, that you wanted on Jackson Browne, in the, in the record? RJ: 1:46:30 There is, I talk about him and you know, I think it is pretty, I think it is pretty clear in terms of [inaudible] to those three songs. The middle one is about people fighting against the environmental devastation. And he was very big in the anti-nuclear movement, which was big in the mid (19)70s. And so that is kind of what he is talking about in that song, but in a much greater thing, he is talking about the counterculture in that in that generation. And then obviously in the last song, as I mentioned, there, you know, it is a song about a guy who goes to work, comes home, puts his glasses on, does some cocaine, has sex, wakes up in the morning, gets back in his car, goes to work dah-dah, dah-dah, dah, you know. There is a, in that, later on in that those first pages of that book, I talk about Bruce Springsteen, and he kind of came on board. He his first like National popularity was (19)75, when the "Born to Run" album came out, and Bruce was never a hippie, he was informed by the counterculture. He grew up in a working-class New Jersey, his dad was a factory worker and so on. And I think Bruce represents the (19)70s better than any other popular musician because of the way he chronicles individuals' lives first. In Born to Run, it is about people trying to get away from their dead [inaudible] you know, taking the same job in the same place that their dad had a job or their mom and then just racing or fast cars and then leaving, or trying to leave and then and falling in love and like trying to hide out on the beach in the summer and smoke pot or whatever. And then the next- and for him, it is about becoming a rock and roll musician as his way out of, of that life. Then the next album is "Darkness on the Edge of Town," which is basically about the people who did who get into the car culture. The town, I live in Maryland, on and off, my dad was stationed there, and then after I left moved out of there, my parents’ house, our culture was real big and like best people spent their money on, it was almost going back to the (19)50s. And then he kind of gotten he just follows that transcript, transition all the way up to people getting married, and getting divorced, and so on, always brings some of that reality about working, although being a member of the working class, and so on. And I think he really, he captures that that what happened to most people who are in the United States, most young people who are in the United States and who were not on the trajectory of college, and who were not on, who were not in the military, but who, you know, who were just trying to figure out how to how to make a life for themselves. And the counterculture gave them a lot of those kids hope that they could try something different. And some of them left their hometowns and went up to San Francisco or hit the road or started going to rock festivals or following the Grateful Dead around or something. But ultimately, most of them ended up, you have to face the reality of. SM: 1:49:39 Right. RJ: 1:49:40 And that is that is that economic hegemony that, you know, it just had more power, it won in its own way, but there are still elements that still exist throughout, throughout our culture. SM: 1:49:54 Yeah, we talk about the two events that really were the watershed events. All the movements were important, but in Vietnam and the Civil Rights Movement, to me are the two that really make the (19)60s. Because with the Civil Rights Movement gave everybody experience and knowledge about how to protest. And, you know, they gave the kind of laid down some of the laws about protesting. And so those two, and I think, what is amazing about Dr. King is, when you think about Dr. King, he, he is one of the-the figures of the (19)60s because of the fact that he obviously, he believed in nonviolent protest, and he was involved in so many protests itself, the March on Washington, but it is that speech in (19)67, against the war in Vietnam, that links civil rights, and, and in the, in the anti-war movement in a very major way. Because toward the end of Dr. King's life, he was always talking about the economy and the economy. And he ended up dying, you know, in a city in Memphis, where the they were fighting for rights, the work was fighting for rights [crosstalk] RJ: 1:51:04 Yeah, they were economic rights and to work yeah, exactly. To form a Union, yeah. SM: 1:51:09 He is a, he is a major force, and he is a major force in my life because of who he is. And the mere fact that he lost a lot of friends in the civil rights movement for his stand on the Vietnam War. And so, it is a, it is, the (19)60s is just an amazing thing here. I have a question. A couple more questions. And then a couple of things to end. What are the most important books on the on the (19)60s that were written in the (19)60s or (19)70s that impacted you? I have a list here of a few, but what books did you read that had a great impact on you? RJ: 1:51:43 Well, one of them was "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." Another one was "The Greed of America." SM: 1:51:51 Oh, yeah. Charles Wright? RJ: 1:51:53 Yeah, yeah. Another one was, I am trying to think which one- "Revolution for the Hell of it" by Abbie Hoffman? SM: 1:52:00 Okay. RJ: 1:52:02 And then there was one by Tom Hayden, I cannot, I think it was about the Chicago 8 trial. I think it was just called "The Trial." SM: 1:52:10 Yep. RJ: 1:52:10 Those are, those are ones that come to my mind pretty much quickly. There is, there is got to be other ones, but I cannot think of them right now. SM: 1:52:19 I have Hayden's books. All of his books were just amazing. I, the "The Armies of the Night" by Norman Mailer. RJ: 1:52:27 Oh, yeah, absolutely. That is an incredible book. Yeah. SM: 1:52:28 That was another one. Theodore Roszak's, "The Making of a Counterculture." RJ: 1:52:30 Yep. Yep, that is yep, okay. SM: 1:52:35 There was James Farmer's "Nigger," the book, that was very popular. Eldridge Cleaver, "The Soul on Ice" RJ: 1:52:41 Soul on Ice, yep-yep. SM: 1:52:42 James Kunen, "The Strawberry Statement," and Ron Kovic's "Born on the Fourth of July." RJ: 1:52:49 Absolutely yeah. SM: 1:52:50 And anything Tom Wolfe wrote. RJ: 1:52:53 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, of course. "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" was-was crucial to me. So was "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" and "Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail" by Hunter S. Thompson. Yeah. SM: 1:52:54 Because Tom Wolfe- Yep. And the, another question here is, there were a lot of you know, slogans from the (19)60s. What were the slogans that after that whole era, say from (19)60, to (19)75 slogans that you remember that had an impact on you that were so well known at the time? RJ: 1:53:21 [whispers] Oh, man. SM: 1:53:22 Slogans from civil rights leaders, African Americans, antiwar activists, politicians anything. RJ: 1:53:30 Okay, right on the Black Power thing, Black Power right on. SM: 1:53:34 Right. RJ: 1:53:36 The 2,4,6,8- no, no, "Hey-hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" SM: 1:53:43 Right. RJ: 1:53:45 Trying to take a couple of the other ones. I am trying to think there were some at the antiwar protests, but I cannot really remember right now. SM: 1:53:57 Malcolm X had one, "By Any Means Necessary." RJ: 1:54:01 Yes. SM: 1:54:02 And of course, Jerry Rubin, "Do not trust anyone over 30." RJ: 1:54:06 And "Do It." SM: 1:54:07 Yeah. RJ: 1:54:08 Just which-which Nike now uses I guess. SM: 1:54:11 Yeah. I do not know how that some of these advertisers can get away with this stuff. RJ: 1:54:14 Yeah-yeah, yeah. SM: 1:54:15 I cannot believe that some of the people would approve, or their families would approve them to use some of these things. RJ: 1:54:21 Maybe they it is it was not trademark, they cannot really do anything about it probably or something, yeah. SM: 1:54:25 I would say that probably the one thing and this is just is that the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, even though as an organized group, they were not very large, I think they were one of the most influential antiwar groups in terms of moving regular Americans to start really challenging the war, besides the students, the students. I think, the VVAW, they are, it is difficult to measure how important they were in terms of changing middle America's mind about the war. I did not ask a lot of questions we were coming- we have now done two hours here, almost two hours. But I usually conclude by making some-some names for you to kind of respond to, but is there a question that you thought I was going to ask that I did not ask that you might want to respond to something that you want to state about the (19)60s or anything that I have been talking about, something that I have not asked? One of the things I noticed back then in the (19)60s to, you would have, I know, there was always the sexism within the antiwar movement and women in secondary roles. And that is a lot of the reasons why the woman's movement evolved. And even there was an issue with that with the nurses that served in Vietnam. I mean, it is a whole thing about when the wall was built, where were the nurses. So, it is like, there is a lot of that stuff. But one thing I did notice, and I would like your observations on this, too. When you look at the protests and the movements and so forth of the (19)60s, they would come together at protests, you will see, in the latter part of the (19)60s, you see, you know, the-the African American organizations, the women's groups, the gay and lesbian groups, and especially after (19)69, they would all be together in an antiwar movement. And they would come together. I asked David Mixner about this, I interviewed who was, you know, he was involved in both- the antiwar movement and-and he says, there is truth to this, that they are all separate now. The women's movement has their big rallies in Washington, the antiwar group, is basically the antiwar groups. It is, the gay and lesbian group [inaudible] their big events and so forth. And civil rights groups have those-they are not coming together, is-is my observation incorrect? RJ: 1:56:54 I think it is more true than- no, I think it is pretty true. And I, I often wonder why that is, because when it comes to war, war affects everybody. And then also, I mean, I look over the years, and groups became more and more single issue in the late (19)70s, and going into the (19)80s, and into all throughout the whole (19)90s. And obviously, into the into this century. But I think part of it might be I mean, I-I am just filling stuff out there. I think part of it might be also because of the professionalization of a lot of the leaderships where they actually have these jobs and their organizations. Like back and back, like during the antiwar movement, there was only, there was only two or three antiwar groups that were at, that helped organize every single major antiwar demonstration. And even now, even those groups, the leadership was constantly changing, rotating itself. And they were not careers. Whereas I think a lot of times, nowadays, a lot of the social justice stuff, people make careers out of it. And you know, because it is done through an NGO or something like that. And that has a negative effect in one way and that it separates these groups. It also makes those groups more timid about joining things that might be more confrontational, because they might lose their funding from whatever philanthropic organization is giving them their money. So, there is, I mean, that is just one-one possibility, but I think that is absolutely true. I think they are more separate, even when there is big movements, like when they were going after the invasion of Iraq in 2003. And there were some pretty big protests. But– SM: 1:58:38 Yeah, well, when I, when I interviewed David, he is a producer in New York, I guess. And he, he brought it up and he says, "Yeah, we have these big rallies for the gay and lesbian bisexual community. And they are, they are not reaching out to other groups." And he says, like, "I will see what I can do about that." I, he is a powerful leader in that community. But he is also involved in a lot of other things. So, I do not know what. I am going to conclude this if it is okay with you with just some personalities from the (19)60s and early (19)70s. I have a bigger list than this, but I will try to go fast. All you have to do is just give me a one- or two-word response. RJ: 1:59:17 Okay-okay. SM: 1:59:19 Tom Hayden. RJ: 1:59:22 Solid, revolutionary– SM: 1:59:26 Jane Fonda. RJ: 1:59:34 Personality who made a lot of unpopular but morally right decisions. SM: 1:59:41 Lyndon Johnson. RJ: 1:59:44 A man caught between the war machine and his desire to help the poor. SM: 1:59:49 Eugene McCarthy. RJ: 1:59:54 Don Quixote. SM: 1:59:56 Bobby Kennedy. RJ: 2:00:00 A man who might have been able to unite the voting population of the United States. SM: 2:00:05 John Kennedy. RJ: 2:00:09 Somebody who died way too soon. SM: 2:00:11 Dwight Eisenhower. RJ: 2:00:15 (19)50s Classic. SM: 2:00:17 Gerald Ford. RJ: 2:00:19 (19)50s classic. SM: 2:00:21 [laughs] Okay. Richard Nixon, Richard Nixon RJ: 2:00:26 Joe McCarthy with a less ugly attitude. SM: 2:00:29 [laughs] Dr. Benjamin Spock. RJ: 2:00:36 Very moral human being. SM: 2:00:39 Huey Newton. Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, the Black Panthers, RJ: 2:00:45 Revolutionary heroes who never had a chance. SM: 2:00:50 Malcolm X. RJ: 2:00:52 Another revolutionary hero who was fated to die. SM: 2:00:56 Jerry Rubin. RJ: 2:00:59 A clown. SM: 2:01:00 Abbie Hoffman. RJ: 2:01:03 A clown with better politics. SM: 2:01:05 Rodney Davis. RJ: 2:01:12 A metaphor for a lot of people in, of his generation. SM: 2:01:17 Timothy Leary. RJ: 2:01:21 Self-centered, arrogant and very, very interesting. SM: 2:01:26 Ralph Nader. RJ: 2:01:31 Understated champion. SM: 2:01:33 Hubert Humphrey. RJ: 2:01:36 He got screwed. SM: 2:01:39 Barry Goldwater. RJ: 2:01:42 The beginning of the racialization of the Republican Party. SM: 2:01:49 George Wallace. RJ: 2:01:51 Racist. SM: 2:01:52 Martin Luther King Jr. RJ: 2:01:55 Hero. SM: 2:01:56 Muhammad Ali. RJ: 2:01:57 Another hero. SM: 2:01:58 Spiro Agnew. RJ: 2:02:04 Sucker. SM: 2:02:06 Gloria Steinem. RJ: 2:02:11 Intelligent, middle class, feminist. SM: 2:02:16 John Lewis. RJ: 2:02:20 So, oh, John. No, John Lewis, the African American guy? SM: 2:02:24 Yes. RJ: 2:02:26 A hero who made too many compromises. SM: 2:02:31 Byard Rustin. RJ: 2:02:33 Same. Hero who made too many compromises. SM: 2:02:36 Richard Daley. RJ: 2:02:40 I cannot say anything good about him. SM: 2:02:42 Robert McNamara. RJ: 2:02:44 I cannot say anything good about him either. He was an intellectual who wasted his brains. SM: 2:02:49 Daniel Ellsberg. RJ: 2:02:51 He was a hero and an intellectual who did the right thing. SM: 2:02:55 Woodward and Bernstein. RJ: 2:02:58 Too, they, you know, I wanted to- I am a little bit of a journalist. To me, what they did was one of the more heroic things of that time. So, they are heroes. SM: 2:03:08 Angela Davis. RJ: 2:03:10 Also a hero. SM: 2:03:11 Bella Abzug. RJ: 2:03:14 Fascinating and militant. SM: 2:03:16 Jackie Kennedy. RJ: 2:03:23 One of the strongest popular personalities and woman, women that I can think of. SM: 2:03:30 And I got about five more. Walter Cronkite. RJ: 2:03:35 He was the bearer of the news good and bad, but he always did it with a sense of justice. SM: 2:03:41 And then musicians. Jimi Hendrix. RJ: 2:03:46 Best guitarist ever, died too young. SM: 2:03:48 Janis Joplin. RJ: 2:03:54 A true, true hippie who could think. SM: 2:03:59 The Beatles. RJ: 2:04:01 They were kind of like demigods. SM: 2:04:05 Elvis Presley. RJ: 2:04:08 Almost the dad- almost the daddy of rock and roll. SM: 2:04:11 And of course, and there are other musicians that you would like to put in there, solo or groups that that should really define the (19)60s if you want to add a lot more on to there? RJ: 2:04:24 Just a couple, I would like to add Bob Dylan as the-the poet and Nobel Laureate in real truth actually now but of the genera- of the time, and the Grateful Dead as the people, the torchbearers of the counterculture. SM: 2:04:40 Yeah, I will I will add Richie Havens on to this because to me, he was the symbol of the spirit of the era. RJ: 2:04:46 Yeah, that is, that is good. That, his version of freedom in Woodstock movie says it all. SM: 2:04:53 Yep. And so, I, that is basically it. I am done here now. Do you want to add anything else or finished? RJ: 2:05:03 I think I am done also, thanks. Yep. SM: 2:05:05 Yep, well what will happen here is we have got the copier, and this is on the digital machine. Now the guy, young man, set it up, and then I will turn it off. You will get a copy sent to you Ron. RJ: 2:05:16 Okay. SM: 2:05:17 It will either be sent through the computer or it will be sent to your home address. And, and now, if you could email your home address to me again, I so that we can mail it to you. And then, or we will do it over the computer, we have your email, and we will go from there. And then there is a form you have to sign too, but you have to listen to it first and approve it before anything- Okay, sure- is okay. It has been an honor to talk to you, I apologize for taking so long to do this. I did not know I was going to tear my knee up. And I have still got my crutch here to the side. And I will be interviewing John Sinclair sometime in the next month, I hope. RJ: 2:05:56 Oh, that would be fun. SM: 2:05:57 I can work that out. And, and then I do need some pictures of you. I need a couple pictures that you can mail to me because of the 275 people that I originally did, I think about 230 I interviewed them in person, the rest I did over the phone, so I have to get approved pictures from them, that ones that are over the computer. RJ: 2:06:19 Okay, so I can just send you a couple? SM: 2:06:21 Yeah, send me a couple that they have been approved. And if somebody took the pictures of you, you have to tell me who the person is. RJ: 2:06:27 Sure, sure. Okay. SM: 2:06:28 They have to get the credit for the picture. And look at and we have a bio, if you could do a brief bio and send it to me, unless there is a bio on the on the computer. That would be helpful too. Because what is going to happen is these tapes will all be available for research and scholarship. That for students and faculty, and they will be, the center will open I think at the end of this year or the beginning of 2020. And they are going to let them available for research right now. And we have got 105 Already done of the original group we have got- 31 died since I started this. RJ: 2:07:07 Oh, wow. SM: 2:07:07 So, I have gotten about 15 of those who died, the families to approve, but some of the people I cannot find, it is a big effort. But anyways, but you are going to- it is your important because your name will far outlive any book that I might have done for an oral history interview book. Because they will be people- we looks listening to your voice. RJ: 2:07:28 Right. SM: 2:07:29 And the tape 100 years from now. RJ: 2:07:32 Right. SM: 2:07:33 So that is what makes this project even more important. RJ: 2:07:36 Yeah, thanks for doing it. SM: 2:07:37 Yep. And again, thank you very much, continued success in all that you do. RJ: 2:07:42 Thank you same to you and I will send that, I will get find some pictures and so on and send you that my mailing address and we will go from there. SM: 2:07:52 Okay, great. Thanks Ron, have a great day. RJ: 2:07:55 Yep take care you too. Bye-bye. SM: 2:07:56 Bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ron Jacobs