176 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/34f6ab261be8488d88178b87440e9971.jpeg d5363dcaae99ebd65bedba6e84c102e1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3ac3a5b073ede5e18dc8a2ca03556e33.MP3 9b30cb2067565be013039b5d01a5188a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2021-08-05 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Harriet Hyman Alonso Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:32:36 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Dr. Harriet Hyman Alonso has been Professor Emerita of History at the City College of New York and the CUNY Graduate Center since 2015. She has written extensively about peace history. Her books include the now-classic Peace as a Women’s Issue: A History of the U.S. Movement for World Peace and Women’s Rights and the award-winning, Growing Up Abolitionist: The Story of the Garrison Children. In the fall of 2012, Wesleyan University Press will publish her newest work, Something Sort of Grandish: Yip Harburg on Lyrics, Laughter, and Human Rights. She earned an M.A. in Women’s History from Sarah Lawrence College and a Ph.D. in History from Stony Brook University. Keywords Baby boom generation; 1960s; 1970s; Women's history; Women's Rights Movement; Abolition; Peace movement; Suffragettes; Peace Movement. Digital Format audio/mp4 Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Harriet Hyman Alonso Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 5 November 2021 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:05 All right. Can you hear me okay? HHA: 00:07 Yep. Can hear you fine. SM: 00:09 Yeah. Okay, the first question I just want to ask you is if you could tell us a little bit about yourself, through your growing up years, your high school and your college experiences before you became a professor and very gifted writer. HHA: 00:21 Okay, well, I was born on July 31 (19)45. And in a family that was, how can I put it, that they were kind of conservative, but not vocal, a very quiet Jewish family. Very working class, my father was and was very poor as a child, and my mother, a little less poor. They lived in Brooklyn. And they, my father was in the army for a very brief period at the end of World War Two, which made him eligible for the GI Bill. So, they purchased a home in Paramus, New Jersey when I was in the fourth grade, and at the time they had together $125 to their name when they moved in. So, I went to school largely in Paramus, which I never liked [laughs] to this day. And never quite fit in, and so I was eager to leave. But the one thing about that growing up period, I will say, is that I became really interested in the theater. And that is because my parents always were and my father, as a child had, well, I guess a teenager and young man had built himself, you know, one of those scooters with the wooden platform. And he would push himself from Brooklyn into Manhattan, and go to any show he could afford. So, I was, and he had this incredible memory of theater information, and movie information. His friends used to like to come by and ask him all these obscure questions that he could always answer. So, I was raised with this love of theater, and of musical theater in particular. And when I was in high school, Robert Ludlum, you might know his name from spy novels. SM: 02:31 Yes. HHA: 02:32 Yeah. But he was the producer of an Actors Equity Theatre in New Jersey, that was originally called the North Jersey Playhouse and then became the Playhouse on the Mall in Paramus. And he had a program for apprentices of kids from local high schools, and I applied and I was accepted. And for three summers, I worked in that theater. And during the year, I ushered in that theater, and became like, really connected in an, especially in an emotional way, as well as learning so much. And so, I originally thought I would go, I would study theater somewhere. My parents, and I have two older sisters, nobody ever went to college. And so, when I said I wanted to go to college, my parents immediately thought I would go to a state college and become a teacher. And I said, I would never ever in my life, become a teacher. It is kind of ironic when you think about it, and [crosstalk] SM: 03:46 Now you are a great teacher. [laughter] HHA: 03:50 I want to study the theater. And so, I actually, my high school had not designated me as somebody who would follow the college path. And I applied, they did not really like counsel me in it. So, I applied to one school. I applied to NYU. At that time, the theater program was in the School of Education. Am I telling you too much? SM: 04:20 Oh-no, no, this is fine. Because, you know, the books that you have written, people want to know who you are, where you came from. HHA: 04:29 [laughs] Okay, so I-I applied to NYU and my-my mother said, "If you receive" and she gave me a dollar amount, I forget what it was like about $500. "If you receive that in financial aid, somehow I will figure out how you should go to college" and I got exactly that amount. And so, I went to NYU to where the theater program was in the School of Education. This was before the School of the Arts was even created. And I went there. I soon discovered I did not have the backbone to be in the theater. So, I switched to an English major. And I graduated from NYU in (19)67 with a Bachelor's in English and Dramatic Arts in the School of Education. And from there I actually, I had been very interested in the Peace Corps. And I had applied and been accepted and been trained to teach ESL. And, but I never did go to the Peace Corps. Because I met the man I married, and that I am still married to [laughs] and ended up teaching ESL for about 15 years. And during those years, because this was (19)67 on into about (19)80, let us say, or, let us say, six- I taught ESL from (19)67 to (19)82, but I started to make a transition before that. I would say that the-the changes that happened in the late (19)60s for me, were the political changes. SM: 06:21 Right. HHA: 06:22 And some of that had to do with being in Greenwich Village. And living in a dorm there and being exposed. Some of it was meeting my husband, who was kind of a beatnik hippie at the time, [laughs] and just learning stuff. And I ended up after I graduated, getting a job teaching ESL at a, it was one of the first community-controlled schools in New York City, up in Harlem, on 121st Street, IS 201. And I taught ESL there for a year when I was, was kind of lost, and appealed to a professor at NYU who taught ESL, and then he actually came to the school and advised me on what I was doing, and then recruited me into a special program at NYU, where I trained at the American Language Institute and taught ESL. So anyway, I taught ESL for 15 years, but that really- oh, that is English as a Second Language for [inaudible]. SM: 07:40 Right-right. HHA: 07:43 Door during those years, I became very involved in the-the early women's movement, second wave women's movement, I became involved in the antiwar movement too, mostly about the draft issue, the anti-draft movement, because I had a son in (19)71. And, you know, became very aware of that. So, I went to a lot of marches against the Vietnam War, became involved in the Cuba movement, and worked with a magazine called Cuba Times Magazine and made some journalistic trips to Cuba. SM: 08:29 Wow. HHA: 08:30 And so, I became politicized at that time, which was very opposite of what I was raised, or how I was raised to be. Like I said, my parents were not active in any way. They were [inaudible] kind of more timid people. I do not I do not know if that was an effect of World War Two, of what they knew about the Holocaust or whatever, like, I know now, I did not learn till I was 18 that almost my entire family was wiped out in the Holocaust. They never mentioned that [laughs] which and so they it was so they were, I became the black sheep of the family in effect. And but I journeyed on my way, and kind of one thing led to another and in around (19)79, I guess, or (19)80, I-I was not happy teaching ESL. I really loved the students, I learned a lot. But something, it was kind of was not meshing and I needed to make a change. And also, one part I forgot is I got, I got very involved in doing embroidery, especially needlepoint. And I started creating my own political, what I call political posters, because I love that art form. And those pieces, which are still with me, have now been acquired by the New York State Museum up in Albany. And some of them have gone there, and some will go there eventually, but are with me, and I still do those. But that, doing that art form led me to women's history. And I somehow wanted to pull together the political stuff, and the professional stuff in some way. And one day I was looking, you know, how the New York Times used to have ads in it- SM: 11:01 Yes. HHA: 11:01 -or educational ads, I was just looking through the paper, and I saw this ad for an open house at Sarah Lawrence College for the MA in women's history. And I said, "Oh, that sounds really interesting." And I went up to the school, and had what I would call a conversion experience. It was like, a bolt of lightning hit me, I attended classes taught by Gerda Lerner, and a couple of other professors there. And I just, I do not know what I could say, I just knew that I wanted to do that, and borrowed all kinds of money [laughs] to do that. And in fact, when I applied, you know, and Gerda Lerner interviewed me, and she said, "I do not know why you want to start this, you already have a profession." And why do you want to come back to school and learn this. And, you know, I told her how I felt and she-she was just leaving Sarah Lawrence for Wisconsin. And she said, to the, to her cohorts there, be sure to admit this woman into this program. So, I never got the chance to study with her. But she always considered me one of her students. And so, I-I did that. I had, when I first started, I had great trepidation about it because it was involving a lot of money, it was involving a lot of time. I was also teaching part time, adjuncting in many-many schools at that time. And but I went into that program. And when I went in, I thought I was going to do embroidery history, until my advisor there said, you will never get a job in the future if you do the history of embroidery. Says it is just not going to happen. And I said, "Well, how about the peace movement? Because I am interested in that, too." And she said she because she had written something about it. said, "Yeah, I think you should go in that direction." And little did she know, actually, it would have probably been easier for me to get a job teaching, you know, cultural stuff– SM: 11:39 Right. HHA: 11:48 -than it ended up being a peace historian. [laughs] SM: 13:49 Well, I would say everything seems to fall in place here. You know, you answered my first three questions I was going to ask was, I was going to find out how the (19)60s and early (19)70s influenced you and helped shape you, especially being around your peers. So, around the same age, and when you look at the youth of the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Do you see any differences in the youth during that period? We are, we are trying at Binghamton here to concentrate on that era, (19)60 to (19)75. And, of course, the women's movement is crucial here. But do you see that any difference of the students of the early (19)60s to those of the later (19)60s? HHA: 14:36 Well, in terms of the early (19)60s, I mean, the students that I knew, you know, in high school and in, at NYU at first were not- I mean, I did not hang out with the kids who identified say with the culture of Greenwich Village, who you know, the early hippies or the beatniks I was not in that crowd, was not in any crowd. So, the folks I knew, like, in the dorms or first in the drama department were just students. You know, I mean, I had to work a lot while I was in college, to, to [inaudible] would hold, you know, two jobs, part time jobs at one time. And some of them were in the university. But I just met general students, and I had at that time in the School of Education, every course was two credits. So, if you wanted to carry the say, even 16 credits, you were taking 8 courses. And if I had three or four literature courses let us say one semester, I had to read a book in each of them. So, I was not hanging out with anybody. But I was experiencing the village culture, you know, in kind of a distant way up until probably my last year. So, I cannot, I mean, I did not, the students I knew in both high school and college, were not political people. And they did not have a lot of interest in it. When I was in high school so let us say around six, the year (19)62 and (19)63 maybe, I became really interested in like foreign exchange students, and in the Peace Corps and things like that. But most-most of the people that I knew, were interested in, well, I am going to, you know, graduate from high school, and then I am going to go to college, you know, and the whole thing about, you know, the reason a woman would go to college would be to get her Mrs. SM: 16:57 Yes. [laughter] HHA: 16:57 So, there was a lot of that, and, and I did not actually, you know, I just thought I would find my way into the theater so I was going to college. But and the same thing when I was in college, because I was in the dorms at NYU, very, when I, when I started at NYU, I was living with my parents' friends, way, way out in Brooklyn. And it was very scary traveling at night. Being a theater student, I often traveled at night, and I went to ask a dean, what was there some way they could help me, and she put me in the dorms at no cost. And in fact, by the time I finished, at NYU, I was actually getting $50 A month cash as spending money plus my room and board and my tuition. And all I had to do was at that time, was to have a C average. I had a higher average than that. But that was the requirement because they were at that point trying to pull in more working-class students. So that was their thing in the school of Ed, I guess. So, I was living in the dorms, but I could say that, and that would be from like (19)64 to (19)67, I met many young women and men. They were they I-I did not see any of them being political. And that was not where I got the influence from. SM: 18:53 Well, it is interesting that the Greenwich the influence in Greenwich Village has on people. I am actually reading a book, right, finishing a book right now on Eleanor Roosevelt. It talked about her going there in (19)20 and how it just changed her life. HHA: 19:09 Yeah. SM: 19:10 It was the people, the-the activists that she met there that were kind of ahead of their time. And when I interviewed Richie Havens in this project, he talked about how he would always go into Greenwich Village and sit in in the clubs and listen to mu- other musicians, and then he would play there as well. So, it is like it is, it is a- it is an area where a lot of activism comes from, because of I guess the influence. The one question here, this is important one I think you have you have talked a little bit about it. When did when did you first know as an individual that your voice mattered for the first time? Did you feel that you had real power, did you feel empowered? The one of the things about the (19)60s and the (19)70s for the women's movement and other movements, is that people felt it is not about gaining power. It is about being empowered. HHA: 20:06 Yeah. SM: 20:06 Tom Hayden was used to always when he would come to college campuses. I know Tom, Tom would talk about to students. "Do you have, do you, are you empowered?" And they say, "Oh, we have power, we have." "No, I said, do you have empowerment?" And they did not quite understand it. When did you feel like your voice mattered? HHA: 20:26 Well, it was not when I was an undergraduate. I never felt that as an undergraduate at NYU. Let us see. After that, this is a good question. Probably more into the early- this is really a good question. I am trying to think back on that. I started, when I started teaching ESL through the American Language Institute, and then at IS 201. So that would have been in (19)68. I started to feel like I could do something, maybe to help, you know, people in a way. But I would not say I felt great, great empowerment, but I think it might have started to develop then. And for example, I still have a letter that I got. When I was teaching ESL, I had small classes and I still remember this one student whose name was Carmen, who was, who was sent up to East Harlem to live with relatives. She was from Puerto Rico, and her English was very, very poor. And she was very miserable. And she was bullied. I mean, in today's terms, we would say, you know, she was bullied. Back then, we would just say she was having a hard time or something, you know, kids did not seem to like her. And I wrote her parents a letter, and told them that she was very unhappy, and that she really should go home. And they wrote me a letter back. And that is the letter I still have where they thanked me for that. And they brought her back home where she went to school, and she was, she was much happier. So maybe that was the first time ever. I felt like I had done something that had an impact or working with that small group of students at IS 201 Because I was hired by a committee of, I guess, the schools, administrators and parents from the community. That was the experimental, there were three schools: one in Harlem, one in Ocean Hill, Brownsville, and one in Chinatown. That were the community, they call them the community control schools. SM: 23:13 Right. HHA: 23:14 And that may have been, that experience may have been the first time I ever felt like, oh, you know, I can, I can do something. Because remember, I was not particularly encouraged to do that. I mean, my parents were very encouraging and supportive the years I worked at the Playhouse, you know, but I was an apprentice, so I was not an oh, I also became prop manager for a year, a 16-year-old prop manager who had to, you know, furnish the stage and everything. So that may have been a time when I felt some empowerment. SM: 23:53 Well, I one of the things, I sense empowerment all throughout your books. I think you are a very good writer and you are able to express especially in the Yip Harburg book, I am this is kind of a follow up to the-the other question. Your writing centers on people and groups that challenge things as they are, not what they challenge things as they are not what they really should be in a democracy. Could you explain this? Because when you look at your books, and then not just Harburg Yip book but your book on the abolitionists, the one I am reading right now, women for peace, some of the other books, personalities during war and peace. Why is war and peace so important in your life, peace and justice is so important in your life as it was in Yip's? And, and then explain this other thing, you know, how your writings center on these issues? To me that is empowerment. HHA: 24:56 Okay, [laughs] that is good to know. So then when I, when I was working on Cuba Times magazine that must have started to develop, because that was a, you know, a nonprofit enterprise, very nonprofit. And that, and it included writing these articles, you know, which was really great. There was a collective, we had about eight people of us putting out this magazine. And so, there might have been some there, but it was, you know, it was during that period, like from I guess (19)67 on where, where I started to become very aware of the politics, and started to go to demonstrations. And in (19)71, well, in (19)70, (19)69, (19)70, I spent the year in San Francisco, where my husband was doing a Master's degree. And, and I was teaching in, for in for a while in an at what they called an adult high school in San Francisco. And when I was there, there was a particular bookstore in Berkeley, that we used to go to that had half a shelf of books on the, quote, Women's Liberation Movement. And I started to read those books. I mean, really, there were so few of them. And I-I think that, you know, I had already been a little aware of the women's movement, but not part of it. And I became more aware from reading these books. Then, after the year was up, we moved back to New York, to Brooklyn, and I became involved in a local group in what is now the Park Slope neighborhood, which is a very prosperous neighborhood now- I could not live there now [laughs]. But I became involved in a group that was called Half of Brooklyn. And it was a women's, a local women's liberation group, a grassroots group that had consciousness raising group- smaller groups, and then also did community activism. For example, having it was not quite a demonstration, but standing outside Methodist hospital, and giving out leaflets in various languages to women who go into the clinic, informing them that they had a-a right to choose a doctor. If they did not like a doctor, if a doctor did not speak their language, and there was no translator available to them, they could request somebody else. So that that was the kind of political action we did, having, you know, not quite bake sales, but a place where there was used clothing and things that people could pick up. And so, I was I was involved with that group for-for some time. And then I, there was a family daycare center right there, across the street. And I convinced the so talking about empowerment, I convinced the director of that program, to institute classes in ESL and high school equivalency for the women who were taking care of the children. There were there was a there was a family daycare center where women were [inaudible], were paid to do daycare in their homes. But then, through my program, we arranged for them to come to the center. We had a professional taking care of the children for, you know, an hour or two, while the mothers were in the classroom, and we did ESL and GED classes there. So, I think I forgot your question. SM: 29:39 No, you-you pretty much answered it, because you are evolving as not only a person but an activist. HHA: 29:48 Yeah. SM: 29:49 You are evolving just like Yip. Yip was an activist in the theater. HHA: 29:53 Yeah. SM: 29:54 And it is, it is how people evolve and you evolved during this timeframe. Step by step by step and empowerment. Tom, I just want to let you know that when Tom came to a former university I worked at, he met with the leaders of the student government and, and he basically said, "Do you get do students feel like you have power?" And he says, "Yeah, we control the budgets, we make decisions on who gets money and who does not." And Tom– HHA: 30:20 Yeah. SM: 30:20 -Tom was shaking his head. "That is not power." HHA: 3 0:23 Yeah. SM: 30:25 And then he asked him, "Have you ever heard of the term empower?" And they said, "No." And then, and then he kind of gave examples, and they were like, they had never heard of such a thing. It is like it was out in space. So, it is, uh, you know, and then it is a long story here, but-but it is the whole concept of feeling empowered, which is what students of the (19)60s or activists that were trying to do something to change things for the better felt, they felt empowered. HHA: 30:55 Yeah, and I think the whole thing, like in Half of Brooklyn, and the thing that I liked about it, is that it was not just that I was feeling like I was doing something, but that we were also helping other women feel that. If a woman then walked into the clinic at Methodist Hospital, and-and expressed that she was not happy with the doctor, she had the way he treated- and what was mostly "he" at the time- treated her, or could not communicate with her, then we had empowered her to also change something that would help her. So, I think that was part of the appeal to me. And it was the same thing with the Cuba Times Magazine, is that, you know, we wrote a lot of articles, it was generally what we were doing was putting out the magazine, we were not really out there, you know, talking to anybody, but the articles could inform people, and maybe change them. So, the writing became, you know, part of that. SM: 32:00 And the youth and activists of the (19)60s and early (19)70s were vocal about their desire to change the world for the better. There are a lot that, we are going to create a utopia almost in some sense. Did they did they, did they really become the, do those things? This is something I am always, you know, there are only 7 percent of the boomer generation, or the activists of the (19)60s and (19)70s, that really were involved in any sort of activism. So, it was not a large number, but the large, this group of people did have a tremendous influence on what was happening. I feel they played a very important role in ending the Vietnam War, for sure. HHA: 32:43 Yeah. SM: 32:44 And– HHA: 32:44 But I think, but I think the movement that had the most, has had the most change, has been the women's movement. SM: 32:52 Could you explain it in detail? In your own words. HHA: 32:56 Well, you know, it is it. First of all, like it, it crosses everybody. I mean, if we are 51 percent of the population, I am not sure what percentage we are now, as women, it is, it is crossing all lines: class, race, ethnicity, all sorts of lines are being crossed. So, I will give you the basic example I always give when I say this, this movement has had the most profound effect. In (19)71, when I became a mother, if you walked your child, let us say on the weekend, in your, in the stroller in Prospect Park, and you saw a man with a child by himself, you would know almost 100 percent that that guy was separated or divorced. Now, okay, that was not always true, because my husband would take our kid out. But it was very much true. If you did that same thing today, you would see loads of men with kids. And you see single men with kids and gay couples with kids. And I think, you know, that is just the simplest, most basic change. Who, who is washing the dishes, who is cooking the dinner, who is taking care of the home, who has jobs, and is supporting families? On that very, very basic level, across almost all of our lives, things have changed. So, you could take the like, you could take a racist, hateful family, let us say somewhere in this country. And I bet in some ways you would have found the balance and the gender balance has shifted from the (19)70s to now in some way. So, I think that that is why I say that, that-that movement has had the most profound changes. I mean, we can talk about Roe v. Wade, or, you know how many women are working or voting or wages and all those battles that are still being fought, you know, but that there are so many more people involved in fighting them. But-but so, you know, the civil rights movement, you know, or even, I mean, the one that seems to have the least success is the antiwar movement. SM: 35:35 You raise a good point here, because in a lot of the literature on the (19)60s, in the (19)70s, it talks about the fact that men were basically in the antiwar movement, it was run by men. Now, there were there were women who handed out leaflets, but they were not in positions of power and responsibility, like the men, however, and within the, that is one of the reasons why the woman's movement or the second wave may have gotten more powerful and successful because of that, moving into another area where women were in charge. And it you know, if you really study the civil rights movement, you know, how women were very important in that movement, both– HHA: 36:17 Right. SM: 36:17 -African American women and white women. HHA: 36:20 Right. SM: 36:22 So, it is when you when you look at the women for peace in the (19)60s and (19)70s. And of course, you are talking about in the book, the History of Women for Peace, what were the goals and the strategies, accomplishments or failures of, of that movement? HHA: 36:44 I think, you know, when I look at the, the peace movement, like the whole picture of it, and I look, mostly, I looked at this country, pretty exclusively, and that had to do with the fact that I could not travel to archives in other countries, and I could not, and I do not, you know, I have some language ability, and I could have developed more. But, you know, those things were hindrances to me. I mean, when I was doing this research from the very beginning, I had full time jobs. I had family, had, you know, children, I mean, I know that many women handled all of that. But in my particular circumstances, I could not handle all of that. So, my research was, basically, of the US movement. So that is, that is what I talk about. And when I looked at that movement, and I talked about this in Peace as a Women's Issue in particular, that there were specific issues that were addressed. And they did not just, they were not all diplomatic history, like, it is almost like diplomatic history, and physical wars. I mean, they were priorities, but there was an underlying priorities that were very, very important. And the first one was the issue of violence against women. And I looked at that a lot, that it seemed that almost every group I looked at, and the one group that existed for the whole period, and still exists, is the Women's International League for peace and freedom of wills. They were always concerned about and always talked about that wherever there was the presence of a military, did not even have to be in war, that was bad news for women. There was always violence against women, whether it was physical, whether it was emotional, psychological, economic, whatever it was, where there is a military presence, and or a war, there this will affect the female population dramatically. And in the early years, they would not use the word rape, you know, or talk about that, but they were very, very specific about it. Then they there was the issue of women's equality and the right to vote, or the right to have equality in a government. Equal say, equal representation, that is also like a running theme through throughout the years of, of these organizations. So, the-the women's peace organizations have a specifically feminist agenda. As you know, opposed to the general peace movement, you know, or a very specific peace movement like, you know the difference between a, an antiwar organization and say, a peace or a pacifist organization. And there was even a difference there. But that an antiwar organization like during the Vietnam War is specifically to end that war, and the issues of that war, and then you see at, towards the end of it, or even before the end of it, the movement kind of dissolves. Right, and, you hear- yeah, and you hear stories of the leaders who just, you know, just go live their lives. And that is the end of it. Whereas a peace organization is involved in a more universal effort to try to have people live together, resolve issues without killing each other, and to improve human rights and the human condition. So, when I first started writing about the women's peace movement, I talked about in terms of women's rights, you know, the, the issues of anti-war and peace and women's rights. But by the time I got to the book on Yip, I had recognized I am not, they are not just talking about women's rights, they are talking about human rights. SM: 40:30 Yes. Yeah. HHA: 41:25 And so, in a way while I was writing these books, I will, I was educating myself. And I think the term came probably with the third one, which was the Garrison book "Growing Up Abolitionist," because at first, I mean, when I wrote the first book on the women's peace union, that was one organization. It was so fascinating. I mean, this was the first thing I ever wrote about history. You know, and remember I am coming from an English and theatre background. And even before I could even start studying the women's history, Gerda Lerner has said she used to come into the program, but she has got to take, I think it was 10 credits of history. And I did it at Brooklyn College. And she actually approved the instructors. I had to send to her what the courses where I wanted to take, and who was teaching them. And she said, "Yes, I will accept those people." And so, I did those 10 credits, and I went into the women's history program and that program, I just have to tell you, because at that time, it was the only one that existed in MA and women's history. And then they started to blossom during that time, the early (19)80s around. I mean, that just so changed the way I saw everything and, and I mean, I had hated studying history in high school and as an undergraduate, I hated every history course. So, like, when people who know me then found out I became a historian, they thought that was just like, the wildest thing they had ever heard. How did that happen? And because it because, you know, if you went to high school, when, you know, in the early (19)60s When I did, the history teachers all talked about men and war. They did not talk about anything else. And I and that is what when I first went to Sarah Lawrence and heard Gerda Lerner tuck in her class, it was like, Oh, my God, this is amazing. And I had been reading some stuff beforehand, and I had done my embroideries, which were very political. But I had never heard like, I had never sat in a class where this information was-was coming to me and I, the other person was Judy [Judith] Papachristou, who was teaching a wom- a US Women's History course. And I just said, I mean, my mouth must have fell open. SM: 44:18 You talk, theater. It comes up in the book on Yip-Yip Harburg and, and some of the things I have read about you as well, and that is that it was the theater that would address issues like human rights and peace. Yip, I am going to ask questions about Yip so people who are listening to this will know who he is. But Yip would talk about when he has had those issues in Hollywood, that he can always go back to the theater in New York, and in his own subtle ways, be able to get messages into his lyrics and in the plays he was involved in, because he cared about human rights. HHA: 45:01 But when I, and I used to go to theater a lot in high school. I used to take my bus from Paramus, New Jersey and you know, and my parents were very liberal in that sense, you know, I would stand at the stage door and get autographs and do all that stuff. Always matinees, by the way, because I was only a teenager and working in the theater, but I was not, I was not aware of the politics at that time. So, I could be singing lots Yip songs in my head. But I did not know what the message was. I mean, maybe it was subliminal, maybe I was getting the messages. But most of the stuff on Broadway was not that way, you know, not the musicals, and that was where I was heading. And but when I was working, when I was writing this book, you can see like each, each bookstore, it goes in a different direction. Like I start with the women's peace movement and the organizations. When I get to the Garrison's I am looking at a family and the individuals and how they grew up, and how did you make your child into a radical, how would you do that. And then I moved to it back to the theater, it is like, like, all these different parts of my life have in some way kept evolving around, like, they keep coming around. And like even now, like when I retired, which was in (20)15, that is when I went back to doing embroidery. And the political, it took me a while to get back into the political statements in the embroidery. But then I realized, oh, my God, I am coming around again. Like back to the starting point. So-so, when I went to Sarah Lawrence, I mean, it was a very, was a very demanding and very, in a way, structured and unstructured program. But the writing and the historical research, were very centered on how organizations worked. And I started to talk about, you know, issues like burnout or other things for the women involved. But it-it that did not, that turn did not happen till I got to the Garrisons because I was curious. I mean, every time I was writing about a peace organization, I was finding a Garrison. And I said, "Wait a minute, who are these people?" And I did not know hardly anything about William Lloyd Garrison, you know, and I knew mostly about Fannie Garrison Villard, his daughter. So that is what-what took me to the second stage of okay, away from organizations, I was getting tired of petitions, and writing about how many how do you lobby Congress, and how do you get people to sign petitions, and how do you organize in a group. So, I was kind of, like, I am a restless person, I guess. So, I was kind of tired of them. And I said, but I want to know what makes these people tick. And, and that is when I got into the Garrisons. At first, I thought, okay, I am going to just look into William Lloyd Garrison. And I found myself in the archives constantly looking at the personal papers of the communication between the parents and the children and the children and the children and their spouses. And I thought, Oh, this is, this is just fascinating. And, you know, I mean, my husband and I had raised, I have a son and a stepson, and we had raised them in a political environment. And I said, I wonder how those people did that, and did it work? And that is what you were referring to when you said about looking at the personal. SM: 49:26 Yes. HHA: 49:27 You know, and not only how did it connect with, you know, their religious beliefs or their political beliefs or whatever, but how did the family dynamics work? How-how do you make a child or create a child or influence a child to adopt your beliefs because apparently, I had, my parents had not been so successful [laughs] with me. But they had, in some ways they had, but in general they had not. So how did that work? And then I really got fascinated with people. And the Robert Sherwood project came up and that was because of the theater, you know, and I said, "oh, I just love the theater." And I was looking through, like a listing of NEH summer seminars. I said "Would not it be nice if-if I could go to a seminar, I would be earning some money in the summer, and I would learn something new." And so, I applied to one, and that was given at Columbia University in American playwrights from what year did he start it like, (19)20 up or some, somewhere around there. And the professor who headed it, Howard Stein was-was very, very famous in the theater world as, as a professor, I did not know that. But he was also an old lefty. And when I went in, and we had to have a project, he said to me, I think you should look at Robert Sherwood. I think you would like him. And that is, that is how I got into it. And I was interested again, how did this man become? who he was, you know, working in the theater, writing plays, writing films, he was also around the same- he and Yip were born within a few days apart from each other. You know, how did they develop into who they were. And Yip, I had, I had always liked him. I had earlier thought about writing about him. But I could not get permission from his son, who gave me a blanket "no." And then, when Wesleyan University Press asked me to do this book, I told them, it would depend, depend on if I could win over Ernie Harburg and I, I had lunch with him one day, and, and was successful with certain provisions like he had to read everything as I was writing it. Though he did not, really, he made very few comments about it. But he, you know, was like something I had to agree to-to, to do it. SM: 52:36 Before we get into talking about Yip in more detail here, I would like just your thoughts on briefly the women that you were thought were the major figures of the (19)60s and the (19)70s. I just I just out of curiosity, I wrote down 10 names and they do not have to be your 10 names. But these are the, Betty Friedan, Pat Schroeder, Susan Brownmiller, Shirley Chisholm, Carol Hanisch, Phyllis Schlafly, Angela Davis, Kathleen Cleaver, Gloria Steinem and Jane Fonda. I just, these are names that just come up. These are like (19)60s, people (19)60s, early (19)70s. They do not have to be your names. But who do you feel were the most important women leaders, feminists of the period, (19)60 to (19)75? HHA: 53:34 Well, I was sure I agree with Gloria Steinem and Angela Davis, I thought she was really fantastic. And I still remember when she was arrested at the Women's House, she was in the Women's House of Detention in Greenwich Village for when it was standing there for a little bit. And I remember going down there and we would all wave to her, you know, from the sidewalk or wave to somebody we thought was her. Definitely her. Friedan was important. I definitely, you know, not my cup of tea, but she-she was important. Shirley Chisholm was, you know, being a New Yorker. Well, I would have would have included some more of the civil rights women. You know Fannie Lou Hamer's name was always presented, you know, like somebody that we could really admire. Since I was interested in what was happening between the US and Cuba, there were some Cuban women whose names would come up or this is where, you know, I told you that in my email to you, I tell you, I had a stroke about two years ago, well it is exactly two years ago. And the one thing that it affected mostly is parts of my memory. And so sometimes I have trouble bringing up names, SM: 55:19 Bella [crosstalk] Another one was Bella Abzug was on that list too. So. HHA: 55:25 Yeah, and these are, you know, very local, like, for me, there was a local thing about some of the women. But your list is, you know, I mean, Phyllis Schlafly, I would not want to see her on that list [laughs]. SM: 55:45 Yeah, well she was- HHA: 55:45 And I know what you are saying. Because but it was such a negative influence. SM: 55:50 Right. HHA: 55:51 You know, like, who wants to remember her or give her any sort of accolades? SM: 55:58 Before-before we talk about Yip. See here. I have lost my train of thought here. My golly, I did. I actually I really want to get into Yip. Because I just think this book that you have written is-is should be read by everybody. Anybody that cares about the (19)60s in the (19)70s, the boomer generation, may probably have not heard about Yip. And Yip, Yip to me, it really is a figure, especially when, when he was being interviewed, or young TV shows in the (19)70s. I mean, he is really a (19)60s guy even though he was in his (19)80s I, and I just, I am amazed at it. And I just like if you could say in your own words, who is Yip Harburg? HHA: 56:51 Okay, so first, what I just want to explain to you is that when I was asked to do the book, they explained to me that this was for a series on music and interviews. And they had some people who are just printing out interviews of people. And I said, "Well, how would you feel about if I try, if I use the interviews to have Yip tell his own story in a way, it is like, an autobiographical biography, you know, kind of a mix of that." And they said that was okay. So, you know, Yip well, almost everybody knows either "Brother, Can you Spare a Dime," but certainly "Over the Rainbow." Like, they are, I do not think there is a person, maybe in this world, but definitely not in this country who does not know the Wizard of Oz, the movie version, the musical movie version. And so there, there, he is a presence, who, like you say, is not a presence. Like people do know who he is. But they do not recognize his name. He does not have name recognition. And even sometimes, if I am listening to a radio program or something that is playing music, and they will play something and they will say, Okay, this was written by Harold Arlen, and I say, wait a minute, wait a minute. You are forgetting Yip Harburg wrote the lyrics. You know, and, and they will just, I do not know why, but kind of slide over him. To me, he-he was this extremely human, courageous writer. He had this tremendous joy in life, even though he came from a very poor background, who believed in social justice, in peace and human rights and somehow figured out how to get these messages across to people in an extremely entertaining way. You know, I mean, people hear his songs and sing his songs over and over and over again. But do not connect necessarily the songs with the man. Did that answer the question? Yeah. SM: 59:34 Yep, yes, it did. I, there is two quotes that I want to put in this interview that you wrote in your book and these are Yip, Harburg quotes. Let me get my glasses here. And I just want people, and you can comment on him as well: "I feel there is no such thing as right or left. There is forward and backward. Now in the evolution of man, he has to go forward, which means he has to make change, or else he would stay where he was when he was a Neanderthal. But every change involves a trauma. And we all take [inaudible] change, and we are all afraid to follow who wants a little more change." And then another little quote on him is, "The activist always wants to change, he feels there is something better, but you have got to do it politically too. If the system does not work and if there is bigotry, if there is racism, if there is injustice, if there is one guy with all the wealth in the world, and another guy, starving, and nobody does anything for this guy, you got to want to say, I want change. That is why I want to take care of the Lyric, get something better." I mean, those are, I mean, that is, that is a mentality of and when you think of the (19)60s and (19)70s, about doing changing the world for the better. And of course, this is wave of you know, he was thinking these thoughts many, many years earlier. It is just like, human rights. This is about human rights, justice, equality. And this, this is a man who really is for all time, not just, you know, the (19)60s. Right. Yeah. And with and, and definitely, I mean, "Brother, Can You Spare a Dime" was iconic at its time in it is time. So, it was not like he wrote this song, and then nobody listened to it. And then, you know, 30 years later, they discovered it. This was a song that people identified with at the time that he wrote it. And, and he just kept going. [buzzing] Yeah, but one of the things here, I brought up earlier about the theater. Yip always believed that the theater was the place where people had guts to speak up and say things. And, and you see it throughout, you know, and he did things in subtle ways. So that he, you know, he was such a gifted lyricist, that they would still hire him even though, you know, during the McCarthy era. And another time, people were always looking when he was having to say, because it corrects me if I am wrong, you know, the theater is about entertainment, but was with Yip, theater is about entertainment, plus, there is got to be a message. HHA: 1:02:23 Yeah. And when and when Hollywood turned his back on him, that was where he could go, he could go back to the theater, you know, and, and use and be productive there generally. I mean, I, it is interesting, because, you know, Finian's Rainbow is in some ways a problematic show to be done today. And because, you know, you, you, have you seen Finian's Rainbow? SM: 1:02:56 Yes, I have. HHA: 1:02:57 Okay, so you know the part where the racist white Senator, is changed through from by a wish into a Black person to so that he can, and then he can experience racism. But the question became, how do you do that then, on the stage now. Like, I saw a production at the Irish Rep in New York, that used like a paper mask. So-so when the character was when the senator was, his race was changed, the actor, held up like a paper mask. I saw it done on Broadway, where they changed the actor. A white actor played the white senator, a Black actor played the Black senator. But it presents a lot of problems for the show. I do not know if it, I do not know if it could be done today. You know, if we will ever see it done again. Though, I thought that that the last way that it was done was the most effective and most honest way. SM: 1:04:16 I would like your thoughts. Obviously, you are a lover of theater and when you went to the theater in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and there were certain plays that were really apropos to that particular time, obviously Hair. Hair and then we had Jesus Christ Superstar. These were monumental plays that were on Broadway and all over the country. What, how would Yip, how would Yip respond to the play Hair and Jesus Christ Superstar, which are two of the big ones from that period, would they meet his criteria of the way plays should be and what are your thoughts? Were there, were there a lot more plays than I am even listing here that were involved with having a (19)60s mentality, but also with messages? HHA: 1:05:10 Well, there is all there is always some and I was just, there is a new magazine out. I do not know if you have seen it-it is called Encore. SM: 1:05:17 Yes, I have. HHA: 1:05:19 Yeah. And this new issue that came out has an article about the, from the Asian American community. And they mentioned a musical called Allegiance. Have you have a, do you know what, that musical? SM: 1:05:35 No, I do not. HHA: 1:05:36 Well, George Takei who was the actor who was in Star Trek. SM: 1:05:43 Yep. HHA: 1:05:44 Okay, so he this, this musical, which he was involved with, and-and was in was based on some of his experience as a child in a Japanese internment camp in the West, and a very effective musical, was really quite good. And it opened on Broadway, it did not have a long run. And the day that I went did not have a full house. You know, so they are still I mean, now everybody is wondering how the pandemic and the politics of the Black Lives Matter movement is going to change the way theater is. Now that it is coming back. From the list of shows that are reopening on Broadway, they are all almost all the shows that were there before. And I do not know if there have been casting changes or how you know, what is happening. But that does not reflect a huge change. However, I did read about a musical that had opened in California, that is supposed to come to Broadway, though I did not see it on the list anymore called, I think it is called Paradise Square, which is about the Five Points neighborhood of Manhattan during the draft riots of the Civil War. And the, it looks to be a very interracial cast. And the message would be very up to date, you could say. So, there is always that strain going through the theater. But those shows do not always last long. Because and some of that has to do, if we are only talking about Broadway, that has to do with the whole tourist, the use of Broadway as a tourist attraction, rather than as a theater hub, so to speak, you know, which does not stop me from going by the way. [crosstalk] But, you know, I find myself being more selective. But-but with Hair what-what Yep said, and I have some quotes from him in the book is that he could not tolerate the-the use of rock music and musical. SM: 1:08:02 Okay. HHA: 1:08:03 To him, almost like it hurt his ears. You know, that it was too loud that it will you could not understand the lyrics. And I find that sometimes, too, you know, so he likes [inaudible], he likes Fiddler on the Roof, but he was having trouble with the rock musical. So, I think with some of the musicals that have been done that are very loud and very modern, he would have trouble with, but it is more like a stylistic trouble problem than a message problem. But he would have preferred a different type of music for the message. So, we could say he was getting old. [laughs] You know, and that, you know, I have that same problem. SM: 1:08:57 Right. HHA: 1:08:57 Sometimes, if I go to the theater, and I used to love rock musicals, but now-now when I go, I find it hard on my ears or I cannot catch the lyrics. And that is, you know, it becomes entwined with the message. SM: 1:09:15 Well, I know that, that Yip liked musicals and he not-not always just straight acting with, but did he ever link up with Arthur Miller? Because as-as a whole concept of Willy Loman, I mean that, was there ever any collaboration between him are just talking? Did he like Miller's plays? HHA: 1:09:38 I do not remember that. And I am I cannot answer that. SM: 1:09:44 Yeah because Miller had a lot of messages in his plays as well. HHA: 1:09:48 Yeah. I mean, I am sure that he went to a lot of play- I should not say I am sure, how do I know. But I would assume he went to a lot of plays and that he would have enjoyed those, you know, appreciated those. The person that I knew, you know, better in terms of research, Robert Sherwood in terms of regular plays, he who also wrote political plays, did go to everything musical and dramatic plays and did have an appreciation and want to foster those. So, there were people out there, you know, who did. SM: 1:10:34 It, the thing is, with Yip, and I want to include this because this kind of links up to the-the (19)60s and the (19)70s, that in the (19)60s and (19)70s. In the latter part of your book, you talk about his involvement with things like the 10th annual recognition of Brown versus Board of Education. He was involved in a tribute to Benjamin Spock, linked to saying, he was involved in the anti-war movement. He loved going on college campuses and talking about a lot of these things. And, and then there is another quote here that you have in your book, "You, younger people, I hope, will have learned from the struggles, that if the goal was good, nothing will divide you." HHA: 1:11:20 Yeah. SM: 1:11:20 And he would, and so he was, so he was he was linking up with the generation in his commentaries. I-I, he was a man before his time. I mean, I, you again, I cannot just say it, I think you have done a tremendous job with this book. HHA: 1:11:37 [laughter] Thank you. I mean, I would, I would think that he would definitely be supportive of the Black Lives Matter movement, you know, or any of the movements right now to try to bring diversity to the theater. I mean, he was one of the first, who, who brought diversity to the theater, I mean, in the casting of Finian's Rainbow, and other thing of wanting to have the chorus be interracial. And the message is to embrace civil rights and human rights. So, you know, I, I would think that he would have always been that way. SM: 1:12:11 One of the questions that I have never asked, just this is the first time of asking this particular question, because I want to see a comparison here, when you compare what happened on the streets of America in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, particularly in (19)68, and compare it to what is happening in the streets of America in these last few years, (20)20, (20)20, (2021, even earlier? How do they compare, and how do they differ? And let me let me preface this by saying, I personally, and this is not about me, it is about you and your thoughts. But I feel they are not the same like many people do. They say it is a revival of the (19)60s. And I think [inaudible] to me, there is just, I am not sure if people feel empowered, and they do not ever use the term encounter, which was so important in the (19)60s. HHA: 1:13:03 Well, I think that now, first of all, they are much more diverse. I mean, the demonstrations have all sorts of people, all sorts of ages and races. So, in that way, I think there-there is a difference. In the in the (19)60s, many of the demonstrations in terms of the Vietnam War were white. And there were pock- you know, like, everybody kind of moved in a pocket of you know, you had a banner that said what your organization was. And the people marched, you usually marched with an organization and the same thing with the women's marches. So that if there was a Black presence or say, a Puerto Rican presence, it would be with that flag or that sign. I think with the demonstrations now, it is more of a mixture of people together. I mean, they may be holding banners, but they are not necessarily for specific organizations, and you march with that group. So, I think that there is a big difference there in that I think there were still in the, and in the, in the demonstrations let us see, in the (19)70s and the late (19)60s, I went to anti-war demonstrations, women's demonstrations, and there were a few Cuba demonstrations. They, in the women's demonstrations you would see like children, you know, in strollers or with their parents and you see children in these demonstrations today, though, I think at night if there is a threat of violence there is always fewer. You know, parents do not want to bring their kids to that. But I think that, I mean, I have been really like heartened by the demonstrations now, because they have been large. And they have had a lot of different kinds of people. And they have had human rights. Even though even if it is Black Lives Matter, it has got a broader perspective than that, as did the ones in the (19)60s as well, there would, but it was usually through organizations. So, say WILF had a contingent in an anti-war demonstration, they might be carrying banners about women's rights in there, but it would be in, in that group, you know, what I am saying? SM: 1:16:00 [agreement] HHA: 1:16:02 So, I think there is no difference what is, what is, all may be. I do not know, like, um, you know, the demonstrations I went to were in New York City, I should say that, so that I cannot talk about demonstrations all over the world. But the people on the sidelines, I mean, the people who have been violent, today are more violent than the people who were violent against the demonstrators in the (19)60s and (19)70s. I mean, I remember being in demonstrations, where, you know, people would yell things at you from the sidelines. But in most of those demonstrations, they did not cross the barriers. SM: 1:16:57 Right. HHA: 1:16:58 To attack you. However, I remember, there were demonstrations, particularly if they had to do with the blockade against Cuba, where the police would be there with the horses in that case, to protect the demonstrators, there was a little difference, because there were the anti-Castro Cubans on the sidelines- SM: 1:17:24 Right. HHA: 1:17:25 -threatening violence. In the women's demonstrations, and the anti-Vietnam War demonstrations, there were a lot of people shouting and yelling, and there were horses, but in that case, in those cases, I remember the demonstrators being more nervous about the horses. SM: 1:17:45 Right. HHA: 1:17:47 You know, and whenever you went to a demonstration, and the NYPD had the horses out, there was always like, just a little sense of, "be careful." SM: 1:17:58 I would like your thought, you know, kind of a push for a Yip again. Why do you, why do you think it would be important for people to understand the importance of Yip Harburg with respect to what took place in the (19)60s in the (19)70s? When you look at this, you study the history of that period, how can you place Yip, in there as well, even though he might have been an 80-year-old at the at the time, but just about his life's work, just for future generations, to show that, you know, he is linked to this era? HHA: 1:18:37 Well, I think, you know, that is exactly what you are saying is like he, I always I like to look at things as a continuum, that these movements and these people, it travels through time, you know, in the best sense of it. Like we were saying, you know, an anti-war movement can stop, but a peace movement keeps going. A women's movement keeps going, a human rights movement keeps going. And with that, it is nice if people understood that they did not create this, I mean it always, it really bothers me when people say, "Well, we created this movement, and we create, we are the first to demonstrate about this and we are the first to speak out for human rights." I say, "You know, come on, you know, put your ego aside- -and look a little bit in the past and you will see there is a continuum in the in this country even before the anti-slavery movement." But for me, it was that that mixed race, Civil Rights movement called the abolitionist movement or the Underground Railroad activity, that showed that people work together for these common goals. And they kept going, whether it was through generations of families which I tried to do in the Garrisons whether it was through creative work like Robert Sherwood and Yip Harburg, whether it was through organizations like WILF or that they, you have a history do you have people who shared your ideas before you were even born. And these people's ideas you can use, and their experiences you can use to move forward. SM: 1:19:26 Right. It is like- HHA: 1:20:32 You can build on them and grow on them. And you can sing, you know, you can look back at popular culture, you can cry with Robert Sherwood and you can sing with Yip Harburg and laugh with him and, and bring the-the movements forward. SM: 1:20:51 It, that was beautifully said. The first time I went to Seneca Falls, I went with my dad, and we visited Elizabeth Cady Stanton's home. And, and when you go in there-there is not a lot of furniture, but there is a sofa. And I can remember the person showing us the house said, "On that sofa at one time, this is the original sofa. Elizabeth Cady Stanton was on the left, Susan B. Anthony, was on the right and Frederick Douglass was in the middle," the connection between civil rights and women's rights, I mean, all the way back to eight- now that-that was she started in (18)48. But this is later on when Frederick Douglass was older. This is history. It is a continuum, just like you just check you mentioned. I am going to conclude here with just a couple thoughts, your just your thoughts on these things. How did the JFK assassination affect you personally, and how did you think affected the nation? And the second one is how did the killings at Kent State do the same? HHA: 1:21:56 I was in my first year of college when JFK was assassinated. And you know, it was, it was devastating. You know, I mean, it was, for me at that time he was like, you know, a young hero and the creator of the Peace Corps. Later, I kind of became, you know, questions more about his legacy, his politics and everything else. But it was, it was frightening at that period. Now I was only like 18 years old or something, so it was very personal, in a way. And my, one of my sisters was getting married the next day. And I remember thinking, Oh, this is really terrible, she should not, you know, why should she get married? JFK was just assassinated. You know, because it was that personal. And I was very young. I might see that differently, you know, today. And in terms of Kent State, it was, it shook, you know, it was like a, it shook me. What is going on in this country? Why are innocent people being killed? You know, and those questions still bother me. You know, what is going on in this country? I mean, ugly, hateful things are going on here. And, you know, what sometimes gets you down. You know, as you try to cope with it, SM: 1:23:43 You know, that whole year (19)68 was a downer. HHA: 1:23:47 Oh yeah. SM: 1:23:47 Because, you know, we lost Dr. King– HHA: 1:23:49 Yeah. SM: 1:23:49 -We lost a Bobby Kennedy. We lost– HHA: 1:23:53 Yep. SM: 1:23:53 -A few other people as well. And then of course, what happened in Chicago, we will never forget. HHA: 1:23:59 Yeah, I mean, my husband and I met on April 4 (19)67. And we were celebrating the first year of knowing each other on April 4, (19)68. And we had gone to a little club in the village where we heard BB King and Janis Joplin. SM: 1:24:20 Oh, wow. HHA: 1:24:21 And we came out and heard, you know, about Martin Luther King. SM: 1:24:29 Yeah that was– HHA: 1:24:31 So, it was like, you know, and then it just it was like, boom, boom, boom, one after another. You know, it is very, yeah, it was, [crosstalk] I do not know, a scary time to yet when you look back at all of these things, and then you look at today, you say, those were scary times. What about today? SM: 1:24:52 Oh, yeah, I, it is pretty scary today. HHA: 1:24:55 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. SM: 1:24:57 When you when-when you, when did the (19)60s begin in your point of view, and when did it end? HHA: 1:25:06 For-for me personally, it probably started around (19)67. Though, as a historian, of course, I know it started way before that. Well, I do not know. For me, it may actually have started before that. When I was in high school, I first became aware of Vietnam through a foreign exchange student. So, I was hearing the other side of the story, so to speak. Would have been around (19)62. So, maybe my first encounter with it might have been around (19)62. But then, you know, I lived in this New Jersey not knowing anything bubble. So, it would have been more like (19)67 For me, and you are saying, when did it end? SM: 1:25:54 Yes. HHA: 1:25:55 Oh, they have never ended. [laughter] SM: 1:25:58 Yeah, I remember, George saying, "It is over," and I do not think so. He called [crosstalk] he called he called the Vietnam War Syndrome is over. So. HHA: 1:26:09 Well you know, the spirit and the awarenesses, you know, that came from, you know, was not just the second wave of-of a women's movement. But, I mean, the Civil Rights Movement had been continuous. But you know of a wave that, you know, from the (19)50s or late (19)40s, that grows. So, between the Civil Rights wave and the women's movement wave, and probably, you know, the emergence of this specific antiwar movement, but maybe a peace movement wave, you know, those are still going. SM: 1:26:51 Well, what, to you, what is the watershed moment of your life? HHA: 1:26:57 I hope I have not reached it yet. No, I do not know [laughs]. Watershed moment, it was probably. Gosh, it was probably the spring of (19)67. Probably. SM: 1:27:18 And what was that? HHA: 1:27:19 Because that was the first time I ever went to a demonstration, and became really aware of Vietnam. And, you know, and yes, being in the village, and at that time, I had also moved to the East Village. So being aware of the, of hippies, and, you know, Flower Power. Yeah. So. SM: 1:27:46 My, my very last question has to deal with the issue of healing. You know, we talked today that the divide that took place, a lot of people, commentators who say that we are still divided as a nation, because we are dealing with the culture wars that began in the (19)60s, and they have never ended. So, and, and the question I have always asked a lot of the people if you have heard any of the interviews, is that how important to you know, we have not healed as a nation. And the Vietnam Wall was built by Jan Scruggs and others to try to heal the veterans themselves and their families in the war. But how, he wrote a book, "To Heal a Nation" And the question is, is this nation does, it has not healed at all, from the Vietnam War. And, and look at all the other issues, and a lot of people believe that the movements that were so crucial that defined the (19)60s and (19)70s are part of that culture wars, and that we are still fighting them today, you know, where you hear people saying we are taking two- one step forward and two steps backward when some people want us to go back rather than forward and some people do not want us to continue to go forward and forget the you know, what was happening back in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Just your final thoughts on, have we healed as a nation in your thoughts in any way? Or and we are, where are we heading? HHA: 1:29:17 Well, we were broken before the Vietnam War, certainly. And, I mean, it just seems to me at this at this moment, it has just gotten worse. It is- healing? I do not think so. I mean, I have part of my family lives in Missouri. I have always had a very hard time visiting them. My sister married somebody from Missouri. Very, very nice people, but they I cannot talk to them. And it is even worse you know, because at least they got vaccinated but people around them you know, in terms of the pandemic, and in terms of Black Lives Matter. I mean, I cannot. I cannot talk about politics with my family, and I am sure you have heard that, SM: 1:30:18 Well it is the same way, in some respects was mine as well. And you raise a very good point, because when I first started asking this question, in my very first interviews for this project, it was, it was concentrating on the Vietnam Memorial and the healing of the nation from the Vietnam War. And not and it has gotten to the point now that we, we cannot heal- we have, we have healing issues, in just about every movement we are talking about, and-and everything. HHA: 1:30:44 Yeah, I mean, we have not healed from the Civil War. So, you know [laughs]. SM: 1:30:49 Yeah, and in fact Edmund-Edmund, we asked Edmund Muskie that question on a leadership on the road trip, and, and when we asked that question to him, you know, healed since the Vietnam War, he all of a sudden, had a melodramatic pause. And he had tears coming down his eyes. And he had just gotten out of the hospital when we met him to meet with a group of students. And he said, we have not healed since the Civil War. HHA: 1:31:16 See? I am glad that I, that I have echoed him. SM: 1:31:22 Yep. Well, you-you hit you hit a very important point. Are there any other things you would like to say? Anything you thought I might ask you that I did not? HHA: 1:31:33 No, you have been very thorough. [laughs] Thank you. SM: 1:31:37 Well, thank you very much. Now, what I will do is when we are done here, we will get a copy and we will mail it to you. And then you will listen to it. And then if it is okay, then we will put it on site. HHA: 1:31:52 Okay, thank you. SM: 1:31:53 Yeah. And I just, if you could mail to my email address, your mailing address, and then we will, we will have it sent. HHA: 1:32:02 Okay, I will do that. SM: 1:32:03 And all I have to say is- it is an honor to talk to you. I just hope you keep writing more and more books. This is that I am a bibliophile, and I have read hundreds and hundreds of books. This is in my top 50 books of all time. HHA: 1:32:21 Oh, thank you. SM: 1:32:21 And-and, and I love it, just keep doing it. HHA: 1:32:26 Thank you. SM: 1:32:27 You have a great day. HHA: 1:32:28 You too. SM: 1:32:29 Take care. Bye now. HHA: 1:32:30 Bye. SM: 1:32:30 Bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Harriet Hyman Alonso https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d7263de8c28a707b92cf4ab90b55576d.jpeg 93f7c9186fe28a7fa93632ac90f6ae9b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e799d77fd2add9c0c0c9dcdd2639e285.MP3 80ae0cf75b2a1eacbbb83d32e998132d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2021-08-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Linn Washington Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:44:33 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Activism; 1960s; News; Television; Media coverage; Watergate hearings; Journalism; Police brutality; Blacks; Racism; Civil Rights Protest; Vietnam War; Bigotry; Dr. Martin Luther King. Biographical Text Linn Washington is a professor of journalism at Temple University. He continues to work as a professional journalist where he specializes in investigative news coverage and analytical commentary. Washington also serves as an expert commentator, including appearances on CNN and the BBC World Service. He has a Bachelor's degree in <span>Communications from Temple University and a Master's degree in the Study of Law from Yale Law School.</span>&nbsp; Washington is also a graduate of the Yale Law Journalism Fellowship Program. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Linn Washington Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 5 November 2021 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:03 Alright Linn, you there? Linn? Oh, hello, Linn, are you there? Oh my god. Okay, there is something wrong, see with the phone here. Hold on. Okay. Thank you very much for agreeing to do the interview. LW: 00:24 Sure, I am glad to do it. SM: 00:26 And, and my first, first question Linn is could you tell us a little bit about yourself, your growing up years where you went to school, high school, college, your early influences in life. LW: 00:39 Okay. I-I was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, was born on November 17th, 1950. And I grew up in Pittsburgh, I grew up in the east end of Pittsburgh, the Homewood Brushton section. Lipton Upland Street, went to elementary school and high school in Pittsburgh and after I graduated from high school in 1968, I went to school in Ohio for a year then transferred back to, well transferred to Cheyney University, right outside of Philadelphia, they subsequently changed to, or transferred to Temple University, I graduated and started working in the news business. I- my college training was in television news directing, never got a job there, got a job in a newspaper business and have been doing newspaper reporting on and off for over 40 years. And for the last 24 years, I have been a professor of Journalism at Temple University. SM: 01:49 Yeah, when, obviously, you are a boomer. And [crosstalk] a lot of people that I have interviewed do not like the term being labeled into a generation. So, we have had, we have had a lot of that. But, when you think of the 1960s and early 1970s, that period, really between (19)60 and (19)75, what comes to mind, what are the good thoughts and then what are the bad thoughts? LW: 02:14 Well, it was one of from my, perspective, it was one of the more expansive periods of, of American history, I really felt that America was finally reaching its promise of equity for all, only to see a retrenchment in the (19)70s. But the (19)60s was, for me a great period to grow up in, very expansive. Very cool. [chuckles] I really enjoyed looking back on what I have read off history, and what I have lived. After that time, I-I do not think I would want to grow up in another period than the (19)60s was really the formative time. SM: 03:00 Now, of course, we know what was going on in the late (19)70s. About, you know, that-that period when they were trying to move back from what had been accomplished in the-the sick mid- mid (19)60s and very early in the (19)70s. But, when you were, what were the years that you were a Cheyney? LW: 03:19 I was a Cheyney from 1970 to (19)71 ish. And I, I did a year and a half of Cheyney. So that would have been (19)70 through the first semester - oh spring semester, because in fall, I guess (19)71 I went to, went into Temple [University]. SM: 03:38 Now, when you were Cheyney for that one year, you know, that is a crucial time, 1970. And was-was there a lot of activisms on the campus at that time? LW: 03:49 There was sufficient amount of activism, but the activism had somewhat chilled by the time I got there, cause in the, I am not sure if it would have probably been the semester prior to me getting there-there was a lot of activisms, and the university came down hard. And some of the activists ended up at the Delaware County Prison- which was up the hill from Cheyney. So, it did have a chilling effect from student activism. SM: 04:12 [laughs] LW: 04:18 Yeah-yeah. And I ended up at Cheney because of student activism at the university that I went to out in Ohio. And let us just say as the Marines you know, marines never retreat- SM: 04:18 Right. That-that happened at Westchester University too. [laughs] Right. LW: 04:34 But they just did attacks at a rear. SM: 04:38 Right. When you were there did you- LW: 04:41 [crosstalk] SM: 04:42 When you- LW: 04:43 I will admit I had to make a strategic retreat. [laughter] SM: 04:46 When you were at Cheyney, did you know that Coretta Scott King's sister was there teaching? LW: 04:51 No-no. SM: 04:53 Yeah, she was, she was, she was there- for many-many years teaching theatre. You know, the- LW: 04:55 I did not know that. Wow. SM: 04:59 -the boomers are kind of no longer young. Obviously, if the put in that period (19)46 to (19)64. They are now, the front edge are now in their early (19)70s. LW: 05:09 Oh absolutely. SM: 05:11 When you view the generation from this timeframe, what were their major accomplishments and you feel, you feel and what were their major failures? LW: 05:21 Oh, jeez, that is a very wide-ranging question, I think some of the major accomplishments were to continue to expand the, the middle class. I think there was a lot of learning that-that went on, both individually and collectively in terms of society in the (19)60s, early (19)70s. Where I think the generation failed, is that we, did not continue to push for the what was considered the values at that time, in the (19)60s. I mean, it was, you know, a lot of talk about, the rat race and, and resisting the, you know, just the work all the time, you know, sort of the materialism. A lot of that seemingly was going from what you needed to do to something that you probably should not do. And then there was that boomerang back, I guess it is pretty much started in the early, (19)80s, rather, with the Reagan administration- SM: 06:31 Right. LW: 06:31 And emphasis on me, individualism versus collectivism. So, I just see a failing of the baby boomer generation to really push and try to do all that they could to ensure that American democracy work the way that was said to work. And I am not only speaking in terms of the promises that have yet to be fulfilled when you are talking about persons of color. But I am just talking about society in general. We look at things like now, we are having a horrific problem, and almost an existential problem with, with climate change. I mean, the jet stream is breaking down. I just read this morning, again, that the Gulf Stream is breaking down, and having horrendous, floods and wildfires. I remember in the late (19)70s, when then, President Jimmy Carter had issued an edict that, to increase the gas mileage on cars. And he has faced a weathering pushback. Now, if that had had, that had happened, then we may have been in a position where vehicles would be less polluting. So, this focus on money and the politicization of things that should never be politicized, has now put us in a situation where I am quite concerned about what world my grandchildren will- SM: 07:01 Yes. LW: 07:30 Grow up in and what their children will face and endure. SM: 08:23 Yeah, I got some other questions later in the interview that are going to deal with some of these things. And, you know, that you probably had this sense when you were a student there, I was just a couple of years ahead of you, that, that we were living in a period of which was so unique and so different than, you know, things were finally revealed to us that we hadn't heard about a whole lot in the (19)50s when I was, growing up as kids, and about all the bad things that were happening. And then, we heard about the Montgomery Bus Boycott, what Dr. King's doing, we learn all about, more about the KKK, we learned the truth about Native Americans and Indians on TV. Were, we see all these things in the (19)60s, you know, that, you know, we are going to live up to what our constitution says, you know, we the people means, we the people grow, we are all one. I, I just wonder if that, this utopian mentality that many of the boomers had at that particular time that we, that is our generation is going to be the change agent for the betterment of society in just about every way. Was it, was basically a dream? Hot in the moment or, you know, you know, what has happened to this generation as they have gotten older? LW: 09:41 Well, I think the belief that change was coming, you know, change was right around the corner that, that things would change. substantively. That was, definitely in the year. It was a seer, and it was really heartfelt, but I did not think are afoot here. Number one, that sentiment was not held by the majority of those in that generation. It was always a small number of people, but because of media coverage, and that sort of thing, it gave an aura over the whole generation, which was not there. And I think, one thing that people who felt that and were actually working, as they perceived as change agents, did not recognize the resiliency in the intransigence of quote, the system. There is, you know a lot of inertia to keep things the way they are a lot of inertia, to maintain the status quo. And this effort and desire to change bumped up against that and lost, a lot of people may have wanted to do some change. But the, the demands and dictates of life 101- SM: 11:01 Yes. LW: 11:01 Have a job, keep a roof over your head, maintain a family, it is hard to maintain any sense of activism and change when you know, the notion is to conform, and to just, you know, survive. And I think that is what happened with a lot of people. Hey, you know, we, we love that [inaudible] woman in, in 1978. But now it is, I mean, 1968, but now it is (19)78, I have two kids, I have a car. SM: 11:32 Right. LW: 11:32 They need to be in, your car needs to be paid for at the end of the month, rent, mortgage, whatever. And more people just got sucked up into the system. And then it was just you know; they were parts of the status quo versus the change agent. And the change may have been still within their heart. But do I rock the boat? Do I risk losing what little I have- SM: 11:34 Yes-yes. LW: 11:47 -to effectuate change that may or may not be long lasting? So, very few people want to be at, at the front of the line of change- SM: 12:10 You-you raise- LW: 12:11 -they want to [inaudible] from it, but they do not want to be, possibly penalized by seeking those changes. SM: 12:17 You are making a truth to power statement when you are talking about the boomers. And then the percentage of those that were really activists, that even the literature states that maybe only maybe 5 to 7 percent, of the boomer generation was ever involved in activism all, in all the movements. And so, I-I want to raise something that I know Tom Hayden raised when he came to our campus many years back before he passed. And that is when he came to talk about student power, student power, student power to me in the (19)60s or young people power was about empowerment, the term empowerment, not about just I want power. And, and so he tried to explain it to the generation of the early 2000s, that, you know, controlling student government budgets and giving money out to you know, you make decisions on finances and everything to your fellow students. They felt they had all the power they wanted. Now that, that was not the power of the (19)60s, as you recall, the students were not found and wanting to be on making decisions with the Presidents, you know, every, everything, they want, wanted to get on certain committees, make issues, issues dealing with a curriculum, it, it was a sense of empowerment, that my voice mattered, as opposed to just searching for power. And, and when I look at all the movements, and I like your thoughts on this, whether it be the Black Power movement, the-the women, the gay and lesbian, Chicano environmental movement, it was all more about you know, my, I want my voice to be heard at the table. LW: 14:00 I get the sense that it was, empowerment versus power. Power has the, the individualistic connotations that you know, I have power and I can wield it, versus change for the larger society. And that is when I saw the sentiment from, from the (19)60s that, there was a sense that we could collectively we can make the world better, more livable world. If that means just being kinder to people or at that point, you know, Nathan environmentalism, just trying to, you know I am not saying this in a socialistic way, but just try to get out of the materialistic world that many people felt, was detrimental to the larger society. So, this notion of individual power. I mean, we certainly did not feel that in the student activism that I was involved in. Definitely did not feel that individual sense, was more aligned with the quote unquote black power movement than the civil rights movement. But it was always about the collective, the collective good versus the individual good because at certain points, people were willing to make some material sacrifices. Yeah, so. SM: 15:22 Yeah, one of the, what, the term watershed has come off many times there were things in one's life, especially when people were younger, that there was a watershed event or moment that changed their life. What was your watershed moment in your life? LW: 15:41 The watershed moment in my life? Oh, gosh, there was a couple of, I guess one that [chuckles] has turned out really, changed my life was the 1968 Olympics. SM: 15:57 Oh yeah. LW: 15:58 When, Tommie Smith and John Carlos made their protests and the, the other athletes made their protests. At that time, I was a student athlete, not of Olympic caliber, let me be clear. [laughs] SM: 16:12 Did not you get the gold medal, Linn? I thought you got the gold medal. [laughter] LW: 16:20 I may have had, gold medal, aspirations, but I had lead metal feet so, [laughter] I was not as swift as them. But it really had an, an impact on me, that they would not only, have the excellence in athleticism, but they had that feeling in their heart to use their platform to try to advance the change. Now, I am just not talking about that event itself that took place down in Mexico City, but, I closely followed the build up to that end, and all of the discussions and how that parallel into, you know, other things that were going on in the country, the fight around Muhammad Ali, and his stance on, I guess the Vietnam War, the efforts to try to, have some very serious examinations and re-examinations of racism, both institutional and individual. So, that protests really struck me close to, to the heart. And, as a consequence of that, I tried to organize the track team at the University that I was at, and talk about running, running up against the status quo. It was a 100-yard dash that ended into a brick wall, although I ran hurdles but- SM: 17:41 [laughs] Yeah. LW: 17:44 -so, so my activism fizzled real quick, I was actually thrown off the team, thus, you know, no track scholarship and, and then there were, you know just a couple of other events that happened at the university that really changed me around. I, remember, in my one semester, I had an anthropology class and the professor on the first day of class, was going through the evolution of mankind, and said that negroes, she did not say niggers, but she said, negroes were descended from monkeys, and that we actually had a pre tarsal bone. Where we once had tails and, those tails dropped off. And she, specifically [chuckles] said that if, it was not for her desire not to embarrass the white women in the class, she would have asked the few black men in the class to drop their pants to show these, bone, you know, where the bones used to be. And myself and the other black guys in the class, we looked at each other, and, [chuckles] you know, a couple of extra [inaudible], I mean, so it was like, "Okay, no, no, no. We are not going to get up here and smack this woman." We are going to fight her on her turf, which is the intellectual turf. So, we all did well in the class, including on the final, I had the highest score in the class. And then my colleagues were in the, you know, descending order. Purposely to make sure that we were not accused of, cheating, we sat in different sections of the room. Now perhaps, I am mistakenly sitting in the wrong seat because I sit right in front of her. And she was probably intimidated by that. But she, graded our papers and it was like, you know, 100 percent then crossed out, and then F. So, you know, at the end, when we got these back like, "What do you mean an F? You scored it at 100," and her response was, '"Black people are incapable of passing my test. I do not know what you did. I do not know how you cheated, but I know you must have cheated." SM: 19:31 Oh my god. [laughs] LW: 19:36 Then we went to the department head, who was a gentleman from Kenya, he said, "You know, I agree with you. But there is nothing I can do. Because if, although you seem to have a very valid case, if I do anything it will be just seen, then I am doing something for you because you are black." You know it is like, wait a minute, we are wronged here. We scored legitimately on this test and the teaching of, and we did not even call the teacher racist, although she was. So, you know, all that hard work we ended up with, with F's in the class. So, those two events during our first year of college, I think were perhaps pivotal. But there, of course, were others along the way. I mean, as you- SM: 20:45 Wow. LW: 20:46 -grow, you know, you start seeing different things, small things, and large things, it may have a, a real impact on you. SM: 20:53 I certainly hope that she did not get tenure. [laughs] LW: 20:56 Oh, she was tenured. SM: 20:58 Oh, she was? LW: 20:59 [crosstalk] Professor. Oh, yeah. SM: 21:01 Oh, my God. Jeez. LW: 21:03 Yeah. SM: 21:04 Well, that is, that certainly a watershed event. One of the things here, also is, you refer to it in the very beginning, but why did you choose to become a journalist? What and, and when, and when you did? What are you - I know, I have, I have read your writings many times. What was your first major news coverage that, in your career, the one that really stood out? LW: 21:27 Okay-okay. Well, the, [chuckles], some of the first coverage I did that has stood out and still stands out as my coverage of move. I was assigned to move shortly after became a full-time reporter in the fall of 1975. And now, oh gosh, 44 years later, I am still covering move. [laughs] Amazing. SM: 21:52 Reparations, yeah. LW: 21:53 But how I became a reporter, it was more like the reporter became me versus me become a reporter. I, one of the good things that happened to me in Ohio, I found an interest in photography. And I, started to shooting pictures. And by the time I was in my last, that last semester, Cheyney (University), I said, well, the new medium is television. So, let me go to Temple (University), which had a program for television. And so, I will be on the cutting edge of what is coming next. I had an interest in news, I wanted to be a television news director. But I wanted to be like a field director. So, you know, I wanted to cover wars and jump out of helicopters with cam, you know, camera equipment, and all that sort of thing. As it turned out, after four hundred resumes into television stations all over the country, including in, Minot, North Dakota. And after I sent a resume there and an application, I found out that was one of the coldest places in the United States. So, I am glad they never called me back. But I never got a call back from many stations and the few stations that I did get a call back for, it was just ugly experiences. And a job opened up at the Philadelphia Tribune, I was already freelancing for them. I had a weekly column called "Checking it Out," where I would cover community news events, their regular entertainment people covered the large venues, that at the time the Spectrum or, you know, somebody like Michael Jackson would come in or some of the, the well-known artists, they covered that. I found that opening by covering small events, you know, things in church, basement things and community centers. And so, I was doing that on a freelance basis when that position opened up. I never wanted to be a print reporter that print. Just the thought of being a print reporter really made me sick on my stomach. The only print reporter that I had any inkling of was a guy named Clark Kent. And Clark Kent was a newspaper reporter incidental to his real job, which was superman. So, I did not know- SM: 23:08 [laughs] LW: 24:14 -anything about news reporting. About, as a, you know, young father, the wife at the time said you know, "Love, I am supportive of you and you are achieving your dreams. But we need diapers and food for the kids.' And I was like, "Well, you are right." So, I took the job, at the Tribune. I could always write, that was I think, perhaps the only strength that I have is being a writer. As a child, or not a child, yeah, well, child and a teen, I mean, I was not that good in interpersonal interactions. I was very shy. I could not dance. So, you know, I was always the proverbial wallflower, but I could write, and I saw that as, is my strength. And so, having a writing job you know, fit the skills that I had, and after about six months, it was like, "Wow, I really liked this," because it is kind of fi, a lot of things that I wanted to do. I wanted to be in a position to, say effectuate some change. So, by putting out news that could help people, I had always entertained that I, you know, at some point would be a secret agent or, you know, detective or something like that, while being a reporter I was able to investigate things. It gave me an opportunity to travel, initially just around the city. Well, I know Philadelphia well, right? Because I am reporting all over. SM: 24:14 [laughs] Right. LW: 24:39 It was not overseas that, that came, you know, years later. So, I found out that I, I really liked it. But it was not something that I set out to do. I remember, when I graduated from high school I worked in this summer program, and because I could write, they assigned me to the Public Relations staff. And one of the persons who were, one of the other high school graduates that was working there. This guy knew that he wanted to be a reporter. And he knew all of his life that he wanted to be a reporter. And he was on his way to some school, somewhere out in the Midwest, to study journalism, and it was always "Wow, how did this guy know, I mean, what is it about this reporting thing?" [laughs] And then years later, he is, I, become, became a reporter myself. And like I say it after a couple of months, it was, I was bitten by the bug, and I am, I am still doing it. SM: 26:52 Well doing very well. And [crosstalk] and you are teaching future generations about the way to do it, the right way to do it. I- LW: 27:01 That is, that is what I am hoping. SM: 27:02 -yeah, as a journalist, going back to that period between (19)60 and (19)75. Could you just, could you, what were your thoughts on the news at that time, the print journalism, the television, news, newspapers, radio, magazine coverage? And the reason I am bringing this up, is because many plate, many people believe that the Watergate hearings, and the, and how the coverage changed the direction of writing. And that is because of what happened with, you know, the reporters, The Washington Post- LW: 27:38 Woodward and Bernstein. SM: 27:38 Yeah, Woodward and Bernstein, and Ben Bradley, and I mean, that whole group. Please describe that, in that particular Watergate, the Watergate hearings, and what it really did to journalism. LW: 27:54 Well, clearly, the Watergate affair had an impact on journalism, primarily from the works of, Woodward and Bernstein, which in effect, brought down the Nixon presidency. I mean, Nixon, in his crimes and malfeasance crumbled his own administration, but the reportage that had, clearly, in effect, reinvigorated interest in investigative journalism. But at the time, that they were doing what they were doing, and I was just pretty much starting my career. My, let me just roll it back a little bit. You were saying, what was my, opinions on journalism in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. SM: 28:47 Yes. LW: 28:48 I did not become a journalist until around (19)72, (19)73, when I started writing. And, and at that point, it really was not, well it was journalism, but it was not news journalism, I was doing entertainment and music reviews and movie reviews. My desire at the time, was to either be a jazz writer, a jazz critic, or a movie critic. So, I really did not have that much of, of interest in news. Now in the, late (19)50s, throughout the (19)60s, and then of course, through the rest of my life. My initial contacts with news was from a consumer point of view, an informational point of view. I grew up in a household where reading a newspaper every day and reading these magazines and other things was required, it was not, was not something that you couldn't do. My grandfather, was an avid reader, one of the smartest person I knew, ever, in life. Although he did not go to college, he had to drop out of college to take care of his sisters after his parents died. He was in enrolled in Tuskegee [University], and he had to come out. But he was an avid reader. And, he was in private service, he worked for a rich family. So, when they were finished with their, National Geographics, and other magazines, they would give him to, Luther [laughs] my grandfather's name. And he would read through them, and then he would dog ear certain articles, you know, and then he would bring them to us. And we had to, we had to read them. We always had a subscription to, the local newspapers. And I was in a couple of, college type programs, so we got free subscriptions to Time and Newsweek. So again, I was just an avid reader, consuming. So, it was not from an analytical point of view, it was just, an informational point of view. So as far as I was concerned, at that time, those publications were providing all the news that I needed to know. And at the same time, I was reading, the Pittsburgh's African American newspaper, "The Pittsburgh Courier." And from time to time, I was reading the publication from the "Nation of Islam: Muhammad speaks." So, I was consuming a lot of different kinds of materials. But again, just trying to learn more about the world. And what I felt was the news that was going on in the world, it was not that I was analyzing it, seeing the deficiencies in it, in areas where, who were, could be improved. Posture that I started taking on, after I became a reporter, and started seeing news from a different perspective, and news organizations from a different perspective. SM: 31:52 Did you, did your grandfather ever sit down at the kitchen table with you and discuss some of those articles? LW: 31:59 Oh, yeah-yeah we- SM: 32:01 That is fantastic. LW: 32:01 -we would discuss it and they were always discussions in, in the house. And the notion of reading and trying to absorb more information was not just from newspapers. I mean, we would, there was this publication that was put out for kids, it was called "The Weekly Reader." It was a little magazine, and my mom had a subscription to it. So, every, you know, at least once a week, perhaps twice a week, my mom would get my brother and sister and I, and sit us down, and we would go through the Weekly Reader, we would read it together, go through the exercises, and there was always one of these. They had a, ongoing series here called "Goofus and Gallant." And of course, Goofus, was the doofus and he was always doing something wrong. Gallant was always the nice guy, and they were little lessons of life. So, we learned that we did not, never wanted to be Goofus. [laughter] Although we might have aspired to be Gallant, you know, and maybe get there every now and then. But we definitely did not want to be Goofus. [laughter] So, I am just saying that there were, varying levels of literacy in, in my household. Both my parents are college graduates. My dad was in law, my mother was in education. So, reading, and being aware of what is going on around you and trying to develop your mental capacities, was something that came from the parents and from the grandparents. My, my mother's father. SM: 33:40 I want to talk a little bit more, this was a question for later on, but I think I will bring it in here. And that is, that era of Watergate was really when investigative reporting really took a big jump up, upwards. And a lot of people are going into journalism schools wanting to become the next Woodward and Bernstein and you know that for many years, we do not kind of, I have read articles recently that, that is kind of gone by the waste side now that investigative journalism is not what people are going for. I would like your thoughts. I am going to, just a couple of comments here. Investigation as opposed to cover up. This is a question about your world of journalism. When both in the (19)60s and now in (19)73, Watergate investigation and back in the (19)60s and (19)70s, this is my perception. Everything was studied and investigated. Investigative Journalism seemed to be an all-time high, did not take sides. Everyone was, everyone was looked at. It was not a right or left thing. It was not a red or blue thing. It was everyone. And now we are hitting in this period and 2021 where investigative journalists are becoming dinosaurs, in my view, and newspapers, radio, T.V. are now owned by corporate interests. That was not the case, in the (19)60s, when you had a Katharine Graham, a Ben Bradley, a Woodward and Bernstein, they were not beholden to anybody. Corporate influences seem to be major today, not only on T.V., but in, on radio, and newspapers. Just your overall thoughts on journalism, because this is your career, you are teaching the future of journalism for your students. Do you think of these things too? LW: 35:28 Well, yeah, I definitely think about where journalism is and where it should be. And how can journalism stay, faithful to its role in American society, the founders of this country, from my reading of history, the founders of this country, gave a little carve out to journalism for a very specific reason. Why we have a, freedom of the press clause of one of the five in the First Amendment was because the founders wanted journalists, well, what was what we now know, as journalists, to provide basically two functions. One was to provide information to the public. So, they can make better informed choices, not just about them, their lives, but specifically about how they should engage in democracy and how democracy should work. So, we need information about what is going on in government so people can make more informed choices. Thus, that concept of the quote, "informed electorate," who was supposed to inform the electorate, the press, and back then it was just the printing press. We did not have, you know, internet, cell phones, video cameras with digital data cards. And, then there was another function that the founders wanted for journalism, and that was to bide a check, a watchdog role on government. The American government is three branches, right, the executive, the legislative, and the judicial. Each of those branches has, quote, checks and balances powers on one or the other. Congress passes the law, the executive, implement the laws, the courts make sure that the implementation and the law itself, is constitutionally, it passes constitutional muster. Now, within that scheme of three branches of government, each with checks and balances powers on each other, the founder said, "Who is going to check the checkers? Whose going to be that entity that makes sure that all of these three branches of government operate in the best interest of the people?" And that is where the press comes in. And that is why we have these freedoms, First Amendment, but we also have that responsibility to provide information and to provide that watchdog role, that constitutional responsibility in terms of its implement implementation, and I would argue it ss embraced, ebbs and flows. I, you laid out how the Watergate investigation worked within Bernstein, reinvigorated investigative reporting, and that there was a lot more independence. back then. I would argue this, that there has always been an interest in investigative reporting. We have got to remember people like, Lincoln Stephens and Ida B. Wells. I mean, think of Ida B. Wells, a woman in a time of just serious machismo. [laughs] SM: 39:03 Right. LW: 39:03 And then she is studying and, and reporting on lynching, extra judicial murders committed by mobs. So that, element of investigative reporting has always been there. The fact that, most of your news entities today are owned by corporations, while that has a very dilatory [inaudible] the only thing has changed is that there have, been there are now less owners and operators than there were before. But the, shall we say, the lack of thorough coverage has not changed that much. Whether it was individually owned media, regionally, versus now nationally and internationally owned media. There are certain stories that just do not get out. And, and that was a reflection of the publishers and how those individual publishers, related to the business community in their areas. Let me just give you a couple examples. Philadelphia has a real police community problem and that police community problems stems from police brutality in the city. Police brutality in Philadelphia in 2021, did not start in the year 2000. It literally goes back to the beginnings of the 20th century, the 19, the 1900s. There was a study that was conducted in 1970, about the coverage of the media on police brutality in Philadelphia. And what they found was that the, the news media conscientiously refused to cover police brutality. When in if it was covered, it was covered from the police department's perspective. And whatever the police department said, that was enough. This, bloody bashed black person probably threw themselves down the steps and then ran out and got hit by a bus, and then blamed it on the police. Now, that was 1970. At the time, the SAMSA, we say "The Philadelphia Inquirer," just citing one example, was owned by Walter Annenberg. So, there was a corporate decision by Annenberg to not cover the brutality of the police department. SM: 39:23 Wow. LW: 40:33 The paper was subsequently sold to "Knight Ridder," a newspaper chain, Knight Ridder later brought in a new editor, Jean Roberts. Jean Roberts is looking around saying, "Okay, what can we cover? How can we make more of a contribution that would help circulation of newspapers," and they came upon police brutality. They started covering police brutality, won a couple of investigative awards for and their coverage allowed other media in the city, the three, six, ten T.V. stations, "The Bulletin," which was the other newspaper at the time, they finally started giving, more provocative coverage to the issue of police brutality. Now, this is what was happening in the white media. The Philadelphia Tribune, the oldest African American owned newspaper in the country to start a publishing in 1883 had always covered police brutality. But the other newspapers would not. So, to say, you know, from my perspective to say that the news industry was good at one point, now, it is a little better, but not, it just does not track the history of, from what I see what the media has not, has not done. SM: 43:07 Right. LW: 43:07 Let us remember, in 1968, the U.S. government issued a, the findings of a presidential commission that examined the urban disturbances of the 1960s. It was called the "Kerner Commission Report." And one of the lines in the kind of commission report that has resonance even today is that America's two countries, you know, separate and distinct, and they are moving further apart. And we have to do something about that. Well, the reality is, it was always two countries, that is, it has been embedded in the law, where black people were not supposed to be a part of this, and neither were Native Americans. But I bring up the Kerner Commission only to say that there is a chapter in the Kerner Commission that deals specifically with the medias, chapter 15. They looked at how the media covered the riots of, of the mid (19)60s. But they also examined the media itself. And one of the things they said, their greatest concern is that the media is failing on it is basic mission to inform. They do not inform their audience, which is why about life in, in black communities. At the time, in 1968 they said to the news media, "It is no longer acceptable to say that you cannot find qualified persons of color to work." There is a whole black media out there that you can gain reporters from. Now when, that was in (19)68, now in 2021, and we still have problems with employment in the media. They have, they have increased some, in (19)68 It was something like 4 percent. Now it is up to about 7 or 8 percent. So yes, in real terms it is double. But, when you have a city of Philadelphia, where over 50 percent of the population are persons of color, and it was an audit just done on "The Enquirer," where their coverage is 60 percent white, what I am saying, you know, who gets into paper in terms of the issues that they focus on the people they quote, his experts, that shows that there is some residual biases, or shall we say endemic biases that still persist in the media. SM: 44:41 Wow. This, this is wonderful to hear this. And, and I know that the people that will be listening to this interview, as they are all the interviews, will use his research and scholarship in whatever career they are going into. I mean, this is very, this is very important information. I have learned something today just from, just these last 10 minutes. And it is very important. Thank you very much for elaborating, as you have done, I have a list of some things here from the (19)60s and early (19)70s. That I, I know that the media covered them, sometimes they probably over cover them as time goes on. But just, just a few, just brief comments. I got about twenty-two of them here. I, there is many more, but these are events. LW: 46:02 Okay. [chuckles] SM: 46:03 The number one is the election of JFK in (19)60. Just your thoughts on that? LW: 46:11 Well, when JFK was elected in 1960, I was 10 years old. So to me, the world was, tomato soup and- grilled cheese sandwiches- SM: 46:25 [laughs] Yep. LW: 46:26 -for lunch. [laughs] SM: 46:28 Mac and cheese. [laughs] LW: 46:30 I walked home from school, ate lunch, and then walked back to school. SM: 46:33 Wow, okay. LW: 46:35 I have to admit and, and even to this day, I still kind of cringe on this. But the day that the, there was this funeral, the, the formal funeral, after Kennedy was assassinated. We had the day off from school. Some people, like our parents were glued to the television set watching this funeral of an American president. But for me and my friends, it was a day off from school. So, we were out in the street playing football, you know, tag football. So, a lot of these national events, these really pivotal events in American history as a child and a team. That was something that affected grown folks. Yes, the President was shot. I guess that is kind of bad. But gosh, we got a day off from this. SM: 47:32 Right. Yes. LW: 47:35 That is, that was my thinking on both the election and the funeral of Kennedy. SM: 47:40 So, these early, these events like certainly the Cuban Missile Crisis in (19)62. That was unbelievable on T.V. And then as you get into the mid (19)60s, the March on Washington in 1963, Brown versus Board of Education, and certainly the Voting Rights Act of (19)65, and (19)64. And these are, these are things that I remember, and maybe it is just me, but they were monumental in my life, because I was, I was a little older than you. And then of course, the Beatles come to America in (19)64, beginning of the British invasion. LW: 48:16 I remember that, yeah. It is all. [inaudible] SM: 48:18 Yep, the [inaudible]. LW: 48:20 I remember watching the Beatles walk off the, walk off the airplane and young ladies were just fainting at the airport. And I am just sitting there at the T.V. looking at this stuff, and wow, this is really crazy. SM: 48:31 [laughs] LW: 48:32 Beatles made some nice music. But this, is kind of like the, the glamour of, of the time- -of the time period. Remember the, the great civil rights work and a lot of the, as you say, the passage of the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act. I mean, I read about those and knew what was going on. I could relate to some of that because, say, I told you my father was a lawyer, but he was also a politician. And the neighborhood that I grew up in Homewood when we moved to Homewood. Lastly, my parents always lived in Homewood. But, as we move from an apartment to an apartment to the finally the home that they purchased, the neighborhood was primarily white. And at the time, Pittsburgh was doing urban renewal in the area right off downtown. And there was a phrase called, "Urban Renewal means Negro removal." So, they were going into these black neighborhoods, tearing everything down, to build new office buildings, or in, Pittsburgh's case what they call the Civic Arena, which was a venue for concerts and sporting events. But they go there right in the black neighborhood, but the black neighborhood was right next to downtown [inaudible] district. So, a lot of those people were moving out into Homewood and my father was part of an effort to secure the ward championship in Homewood to persons of color. And so, I am saying this to say that the group that he led, and he ultimately did become the board leader. But the group that he led, which was an interracial group, need to emphasize that they held meetings two or three times a week in my living room, Portland, the living room, or my parents’ house. SM: 48:39 Right. LW: 48:39 I was not paying any the bills, so. [laughter] [crosstalk] But they met every night. I mean, there is like 30-40 people crammed into the living room and the dining room. And I am sitting on the steps. And I am not really realizing all that is going on here. And I am listening to this and listen to that. And I am listening pretty much I am a little perturbed because I wanted to go into the kitchen and get a bowl of cereal and some snacks. Before I went to bed, and I could not come down the steps. It was always adults there. [laughter] When I am, I am looking at change, but not really realizing the enormity of what I am looking at. And the years later, I stumbled upon clippings that my mother kept. And I saw the, their struggles that they went through, people were fired from their jobs, it was physical intimidation, it took them like two or three years to actually effectuate change. So, and I was oblivious to the change that was going on, I mean, I saw it in you know, different ways and different places. But again, being a child and then a teen. My interests were not in the macro fans, who were in, in the microphones in front of me, where we want to go swimming tonight, and this was at a time. Now I told you I grew up in Pittsburgh. So, we are not talking about Pittsburgh. There is a Pittsburgh, Alabama, and Mississippi. And there is a Pittsburgh, California. So, I am not talking about down south. I am talking about- SM: 48:39 Right-right. LW: 50:41 -Pennsylvania, I had to walk almost three miles to go to a public pool because the public pool in our neighborhood, which was about eight blocks away. Negroes were not allowed in. In 1969, I ended up being a lifeguard there. And I was the first or second black lifeguard had ever been at that pool. SM: 52:32 My god. LW: 52:33 So, there was discrimination all around. When I would go to my father's, mother's house on the other side of the city, they lived up on Mount Washington in an area called Bell's Hoover, there was a high school literally in the, in the junior high school, literally a half a block away from the back door of my grandmother's house. But we could not go there to go swimming because of the racial situation. So, we had to walk again two miles to a public pool that allowed negros in, but we had to walk through various white neighborhoods. So, we were always there, you know, looking around to see if we were going to get beat up, walking through these neighborhoods. So again, I understood these things. But, again, I did not grasp the enormity of it, until I got older and was able to look back and see some of these things. And then, also started looking at the things around me at the time, with the perception of an older person that had a little more understanding about the dynamics that were going on in the country. SM: 53:37 Linn was that also, was when you became a lifeguard at that, basically segregated pool. Was that one of those watershed moments in your life? You really, you were, you were an older person now as a teenager, so. LW: 53:51 Right, yeah. I guess in some ways, it was a watershed moment, but not. It was just one of those things that happen. I was more interested in the fact that I landed a summer job that paid good money. [laughter] SM: 54:05 Right. LW: 54:07 Versus me to see myself as someone who helped desegregate the place. SM: 54:11 Right. LW: 54:12 Now, I had a nice job. I made good money. I was not, you know, lifting garbage cans or you know, painting walls like- SM: 54:19 Right. LW: 54:19 -some of the summer jobs where I could chill out in the swimming pool. And it was an easy way to collect money. [laughs] SM: 54:26 Let me just, [crosstalk] let me just read a few more of these, I will just read them and you can just comment in at the very end if you want to. These are ones that certainly the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution of (19)64, the formation of the American Indian Movement in (19)68. Certainly, the Black Panthers with Cleaver, Newton, and Brown. The Montgomery boycott was actually much earlier, the formation of snick. You know, and I was young enough to know the conversion from John Lewis to Stokely Carmichael. And, what happened at Selma. Certainly, the Chicago convention and 1968 after King's murder, Bobby Kennedy's murder, the Chicago 8 trial, the landing on the moon in (19)68, Stonewall in (19)69, the Kent State killings in (19)70, McGovern is defeated by Nixon in (19)72, in a landslide. And then, Goldwater was defeated in (19)64 by L.B.J. And Agnew, continues to attack students in all of his speeches, Nixon silent majority, the Vietnam War from (19)67 to (19)71. The coup in (19)62, when Kennedy was president, while standing at the schoolhouse door, which I remember, like anything, the women's movement, and the protests of Miss America contest, the Watergate hearings, these are just some of the things that were the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And, of course, we ended up getting disco in the middle of the, (19)70s. LW: 54:57 [laughs] SM: 55:35 And, and the great music of you know, Barry White and Isaac Hayes. And I mean- LW: 55:45 Oh yeah-yeah. SM: 55:45 -this whole is, you know, it is like you, like you mentioned, Linn, it was an unbelievable time to live in. LW: 56:01 Yeah. SM: 56:02 Sad, a lot of sadness. But, you know, I do not know if you want to comment on any of those that were had. LW: 56:10 Well, sure. The Vietnam War was definitely a big part of all of our lives. And we saw it, played out live on television, but saw it in some other ways too, the, you know, in the initial phases of the Vietnam War, not the initial phases, because the Vietnam War, actually, the Vietnam War actually started in the late (19)50s, when Americans were sent in after the French would run out, and Americans were sent in as advisors- -initially. And then they started bringing in, Special Forces, but at the time the Special Forces were more paratroopers than Green Berets. And then when we get to around the mid (19)60s, things are starting to ramp up. And with that ramping up of, drawing people into the war, there was this draft. And, I remember sitting in high school, we would go home on Fridays, we come back on a Monday, and there would be missing seats in the classroom. When I say missing seats, I mean a person is missing from those seats, because everybody was assigned a seat. While the draft people were coming to people's homes on the weekend, grabbing them and taking them and sticking them in the war. And many of the people who were grabbed on one weekend. You know, this was in the fall, the spring semester, when we come back, they would be back in school, sometimes missing fingers sometimes missing other body parts, they have gone to war get blown up- SM: 56:40 Right. LW: 57:36 and were sent right back home. So, the war was not something that was remote for me. Now, I guess you, the way you talk about watershed events and things changing. My evolution as a person was in the early (19)60s. I wanted to, my aspiration after high school was to go to West Point, become a paratrooper, and go over to Vietnam and kill Vietnamese. But the events, the civil rights protests, the business with, Muhammad Ali Lee, and just doing more and more reading, I became less and less enamored with that war. And my interest in, going to West Point and becoming a paratrooper just evaporated. When I graduated from high school, I had an opportunity to go to Annapolis, they wanted me to come down there and run track. But at that point, I was, you know, anti-war, anti-military. And I, wanted to direct my energies to changing [chuckles] or contributing to change versus being a part of supporting a status quo that I, I really did not like. So, yeah, the Vietnam War was definitely, definitely a big part of it. I remember the change when Stokely took over the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee. I remember the rise of each wraparound, those were my heroes, King was not. I saw King at the time as, too conciliatory, to turn the other cheek. Really saw him, and I hate to say that now, because I have studied King a lot more and realized, you know, all of the contributions that he made, and the courage that it took to do what he did back then, it was at, well, he is not Malcolm X, you know. He wants to be too conciliatory; he was not a Black Panther. He was criticizing of the Black Panthers when they were just trying to stand up. And, you know, black berets and leather coats looked a lot cooler than, [laughs] a straw-hat walking down a road in Alabama getting beat by the, Alabama State Police. SM: 57:36 Wow. Right. LW: 1:00:02 Now, you know, I know a lot more about him and call it if. So, those events that you raised, or things that I was aware of, and a lot of my friends were aware of. And we were talking about him, and it is not like, you know, they were things just happen out there. And we are worried about, you know, what is the latest record coming from Motown? And can we afford to buy it at our friend's father's record store? But so, we were definitely aware of them. There were discussions in classes. We, I was in the upper bound programs, we were on the campus of the University of Pennsylvania, take, I mean not the University of Pennsylvania, University of Pittsburgh, Pitt, taking classes they were, you know, discussed there. But a lot of that stuff was, well, that is way over there. In terms of the Vietnam War, although many of our colleagues and close friends were in the war. SM: 1:00:53 Yeah, everybody knows the history of Philadelphia with respect, I think it is Thomas Edison High School, the largest number of students that died in the Vietnam War- LW: 1:01:03 Right-right. SM: 1:01:03 -came from Thomas Edison High School. And I interviewed the former principal, and he told, his brother was one of those that was killed. What is really sad is the stories of a lot of those men that I think The Philadelphia Inquirer, I think, they did an unbelievable reportage, when the, the Vietnam memorial was built at Penn's Landing. You probably remember this, Linn, that newspaper, every single person who served, who died, they were all there, anybody was on that wall from Philly was on there, it was, I have five of them, I have given them to Binghamton University because it is such a historic thing. But the reasons why they went into that war, were as diverse as, you know, the people of America. Wanted to get, if somebody, one thought of these, you know, they could not get a job. They can do well, in the military, they can see the world, you know, the whole story there. And while it is Terry, while it is Terry, if he was alive, I certainly would have interviewed because one of his books, was a book on Bloods. LW: 1:02:07 Yeah, I read that book. SM: 1:02:09 It is in a Wallace and what he did, by risking his life, to be next to the soldiers who were African American, Vietnam is amazing story, as you well know. When you look at the, when you look at the battles fought in the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, over segregation, racism, sexism, equality, justice, peace, human rights, environmental concerns, homophobia, where did we fail? And where did we succeed, heavy? You know, I say this, because, you know, my advisor at Ohio State was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, if you want to listen to him, I interviewed him. And he is one of my interviews, he was the man outside of my parents who had the greatest influence on my life. He was an African American PhD at the age of twenty-nine, at Ohio State University. LW: 1:03:03 Oh, my goodness. SM: 1:03:04 And, when I was scheduled to start in the fall of 19- (19)70, it was (19)71. And I ended up going there, I broke my arm. And I ended up getting, going a semester later, and I bite because of that, I had the chance to have Dr. Johnson as my advisor. I can tell you, we sat in the office talking about the issue of between African Americans and white Americans, for hours and hours and hours, our program was geared toward that. It was to, geared toward encounter trying to understand, trying to listen to what other people felt not knowing that we are not in their shoes. But, to at least listen. And I, asked this question kind of in honor of Dr. Johnson, because Dr. Johnson's, we always said, you know, you know, "Do, do your part, play your role in making this a better world for everyone. And speak up when you have to," even if there is a risk in speaking up, if you see injustice, and he passed away in 2015, and now I cannot talk to him about how he would feel about where we are in 2021. I think he would be disappointed. Your thoughts on-on all of these things here. Why are we taking one step forward and two step backwards in 2020 and 2021? That is what I am feeling it. And I do not know, if I am the only one. LW: 1:04:29 Well, the one step forward and two step backwards is not something unique to our time period. In the, now 21st century. It has always been, the modus operandi of America. And that is something that because we do not, because we do not do enough to really learn the true history, as, what was it, George Santiago's said, " Those who do not learn from history essentially are doomed to repeat it." The March on Washington that everybody lodged in applause. Now, Dr. King says during oratory, "I have a dream." While those who are yelling, we need to focus on the "I Have a Dream," you know, particularly now those who are against critical race theory, like that is taught in elementary schools or the sixteen nineteen project, They, they are either willfully ignorant, or willfully deceptive of the fact that before Dr. King articulated his dream, he delineated a nightmare in America. He talked about voter suppression. He talked about income inequality. He talked about housing deprivation, he talked about health care, and he talked about police brutality. In fact, he criticized police brutality, twice in that speech. And what is forgotten about that event in August of 1963, is that the person who put that protest march together that program, a Philip Randolph, a black labor leader, had actually set that protest to take place during 1943. Over the same issues, but the President of the United States at the time, intervened and asked him to hold off, because the country was at war against Japanese imperialism, and German fascism. And he did not want, to have a dismissiveness in America. But those issues, were still there. So, when we talk about the civil rights movement, the civil rights movement was the civil rights movement of the (19)60s. It was not the only one. So, the, the one step forward, two steps back that you referenced, and rightfully, we can see that happening. After the Civil War, what happened after the Civil War, there was supposedly this, period of reconstruction. And, let me just give you one example. I do not want to get too deep into history. But, after the Civil War, the Congress under the leadership of a, Pennsylvania Congressman, I think was Thaddeus Stevens, Congress passed a law that said that all former slaves were entitled to one hundred acres of land. And if they pay nominal rent on this land for five years, they would have ownership of that land. Okay. It, it was not, I am sorry, it was not one hundred acres, it was 40 acres. It was not forty acres and a mule. The 40 acres and a mule was a field order that a Union General gave for a small section of Georgia, this law would have given ex-slaves 40 acres, at nominal rent, it was not giving them anything, at nominal rent. The, then President, the person who succeeded Lincoln after he was assassinated, Andrew Johnson wrote a very venomous veto of this bill, saying, in essence, not in essence, but saying in fact that it would be unfair to white people to give this opportunity to former slaves to be able to rent land. Now, the duplicity there is that years, about three years before that, Congress passed what was called the Homestead Act, which gave persons one hundred acres of land for free, out west, but Blacks were barred from doing it. So, here we have the president of the United States saying that Black people cannot even have the opportunity to rent land for five years to get it. At the same time, that any white person in America or any white immigrant who came in America had an opportunity to get one hundred acres of free land. And so, we see these disparities from time and time and time again. In 1799, a group of black Philadelphians sent a petition to Congress, and at the time Congress was meeting in Philadelphia, right in Independence Hall, George Washington was living one block away in a rented mansion as president, at 16 Market Street. And that, petition said or requested two things. One, that there will be a gradual abolition of slavery, not an immediate end to it, a gradual abolition of slavery. And the person said that, you know, implement this gradual abolition of slavery and we, the Black community would take the lead in doing what was needed to do to help our brothers make the transition from slave to free. But they also asked for something else. They asked for protection under federal law to prevent the kidnapping of free Blacks and sending them back to slavery. You remember the, you remember the movie that won an Academy Award in 2013, "Twelve Years a Slave." "Twelve Years A Slave" was based on a book that was written for a guy named Solomon Northrup, who was a free black concert pianist who was kidnapped and held in slavery for 12 years. That happened in the, his book came out in the 1850s. So, if Congress had responded to this tax paying, free black citizens of the United States, in 1799, the likelihood of Solomon Northrup being, literally kidnapped would have been lessened severely. And thus, you know, we would have had a movie on, Solomon Northrop in the 2000s. Now, that petition was debated a little bit by Congress. And Congress ultimately said, "Well, look, we have no power to change slavery because it is the law." Okay, so this critical race theory alone is saying, well, there is nothing about racism and a law, racism is embedded at the very soul of the law in America. One congressman wins that debate. And if you go into the Congressional Record, I got a copy. You see where there was a congressman from South Carolina, I think his name was Whelan. He got up and said, you know, these people are asking us to do something that the law forbids us from doing, we cannot do anything about slavery because it is in the Constitution. And furthermore, furthermore, we should table this petition, because it was not written by black people because everybody knows that negros cannot write. Now, this petition was put together primarily by two people. One a guy named Richard Allen, the founder of the AME Church in Philadelphia that became a denomination around the world. And another minister named Absalom Jones, who founded perhaps the first black church, St. Thomas Episcopal Church. Now the irony here, Steve, is that Absalom Jones was the primary author of the 1799 petition. Absalom Jones had authored a petition that was sent to Congress in 1797, on behalf of some free blacks who were run out of North Carolina, and the petition is so, and it talks about the experience of these people who were chased out of the state, chased off the land they would own, by giant massive dogs that were unleashed by our fellow citizens on us. And Congress refused to deal with that event, in fact, James Madison, the father of the 1st and 15th of the Bill of Rights, got up and said that the petitioners have no right to come before Congress, they need to take it before the state government. And we are sure that the state government will look favorably upon their petition when they were run out of state and the state government did not do anything for them. And that would have been 1797, in four years, well, three years before that, Absalom Jones and Richard Allen wrote a pamphlet to rebut racist accounts of what black people did in the 1793, yellow fever epidemic, where they served as nurses to the persons who were sick and bury the dead. That critique that they wrote was the first criticism of racism in the media that took place in the United States. They wrote it. Yet in 1799, you had a congressman from South Carolina, who said that we should not consider the petition that was filed in 1799 because black people couldn't write. And you remember, during President Obama's first term, I think it was his first or second State of the Union address. One congressman got up and said, "You lie," and walked and stormed out of the, The Chamber. He was a congressman from South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina. So here, 1799 ignorance from somebody from South Carolina, and then in 2000 something ignorance from somebody from South Carolina. So, there is a circularity to this ignorance that breeds racism but a racism that breeds ignorance. And that is what America is. So, when we talk about one step forward, and two steps back, that has been the American dance since it is very inception. SM: 1:10:39 Yes. LW: 1:10:40 Yeah, you know, Linn, again, a beautiful description of all these years here. It is, something is happening in America today. We knew that in the, in the (19)60s and (19)70s, you know, it was a rough time, in many areas and movements and everything. But there is something about right now. I mean, not, I do not even have to talk about the pandemic. I am talking about right now in America, in the last I can, I do not even know what it is, 10 years. And of course, many people can say, well, it. The reason is, though, you see a part of the American now that elected Donald Trump. You know, it is about well, we want to go back to the way it was. And when I hear that, I said, "What are you talking about the way it was?" And I do not know, I talked with my peers. There is a lot of confusion here. And it is, a very disturbing time we are living in. Yes, it is. SM: 1:15:51 And I do not know, I cannot believe that after all we have been through in our history. And from all ethnic backgrounds that we have not got, have not gotten farther than we are, even though we have gone quite a way. How anyone, how anyone can ever feel that they are better than someone else has disturbed me from the day I was 10 years old. And, and, and I sense that there is so many Americans who feel that they are better. Whether it be because of their skin color, their religion, their politics, you know, sexual orientation, gender, I mean, this, it is disturbing. LW: 1:17:21 It is, but it is one of these things that America, and Americans have not learned from American history. And that is in large part because history is not taught properly. There is an African proverb that says that "Until lions, have historians, the hunters will always be heroes." And this, there has been a fight, a resistance to learning the true history of America, the black history of America, the Native American history, one of the, more intriguing things that museums that I have ever been in, and I have been in museums all around the world, when I travel always wanted to go to museums and learn about, you know, their respective countries. So, the British Museum, the Louvre, you know, museums in Venice, the apartheid Museum in Johannesburg, South Africa. But I went to the, there was a Cherokee, up in the Cherokee reservation right outside of Asheville, North Carolina, and went through their museum and saw the, just devastation that was wrought against them and went through the Native American museum down in Washington, D.C. And so, you get the real sense of what is going on. But what I am trying to say, in terms of not knowing history, in the 1890s, there was a severe recession in the country. And something happened during that recession. And particularly in the south, it was poor whites and poor Black farmers, and just workers started looking at each other and say, "Wait a minute, you are Black, I am white, but we are, we have something in common. We are both dirt poor." And who is keeping us dirt poor? It is not rich blacks, because there is none of them, it is these industrialists and these cooperatives and these elite. So, they started coming together and forming political movements. And there was a crack back, that was unbelievable. And that is when you start having these, Jim Crow laws started, you know, ramping up, and I saw where somebody gave a famous writer, gave a description saying that Jim Crow instilled in the heart of a poor white man that he was better In the black man because he did not have to sit on the same toilet, despite the fact that the are both still poor. And he started getting this separate but equal legislation. SM: 1:20:11 Right. LW: 1:20:11 So where, where did separate but equal really become a shrine in the, in the U.S.? It started in Louisiana, a guy challenged, being discriminated against on streetcars. The governor of the state at the time, was elected in terms of because he promised to help desegregate facilities. He later became a member of the Louisiana Supreme Court. And he upheld the separate but equal law. And then, that went up to the United States. And that was the 1896 Plessy vs. Ferguson ruling. The ruling said, yes, the 14th amendment and the 15th Amendment said that they were supposed to be equality under the law. But, in the scheme of things that was never intended. It was never intended to give Black people social equality and just, just possibly political equality. And then they had the nerve to say that if, if anybody feels that this rule, essentially everybody feels this ruling is racist, then that is their misinterpretation of it. What the heck do you mean that you are now creating a caste system baked into the law? And then you are saying that it is not racist. But let us remember, roll it back to, when was it, 1857, when the Supreme Court did the Dred Scott ruling. And in that ruling, there was this declaration that the Black man has no rights that the white man is bound to respect. And in that ruling, the judge who did it, a guy named Tony, wrote that we, essentially, we Americans are not being racist, because what we are just now solidifying in law was something from Britain, that there was the Brits. You know, essentially, the Brits are the most racist people on Earth. We are just following what they are doing. So do not blame us. Blame the Brits. this is in the ruling. So, there has always been this notion in America that no, we are not racist. We will not accept any responsibility, or accountability for our racism. And we will blame it on everybody else. So now, you have this attack, these attacks on critical race theory. And they are saying that, you know, we want to make sure that nobody thinks that they are better than anybody else. And why do not you follow the dictates of Martin Luther King, to be judged by the content of our character and not the color of our skin, but again forgetting the nightmare that, that came delineated. Let us look at North Carolina, North Carolina in 2021, one of the most preeminent and award-winning journalists of this era, Hannah Nicole Jones, gets an appointment at the University of North Carolina's Chapel Hill, their journalism program, one of the preeminent programs in the country. She is a graduate of that program. However, because she authored the sixteen nineteen projects for the New York Times that won a Pulitzer Prize. She was denied tenure. Now, every person that had taken that position that she was assigned, had received tenure upon hire. But the trustees said that cause since she is going into an academic position, we are not sure of her academic credentials, and-and they held this thing on for almost a year. It took public pressure for them to finally grant her tenure. But at that point, she was so frustrated and exasperated, she decided to go to Howard University. And in the meantime, she was able to raise $25 million. So she went to Howard, with a $25 million contribution to create a whole new center there. Now why I bring up her example is just to show you a clear in black and white example of contemporary racism. But there is a historical, there is some historical roots for this. The only successful insurrection in the United States where a government was overthrown and no one came in to do anything about it took place in Wilmington, North Carolina in November of 1898. A former congressman who was a Confederate Army Colonel led a white mob, and they overthrew the city government of Wilmington. And that government, there was I think, ten members of city council, of whom two were black, and in The White Declaration of Independence that the insurrection is issued. Yes, it was literally called, " The White Declaration of Independence." It said that they were no, they would never ever be governed by Black people, that Black people could not work that Black people couldn't live in the city. They could not do this. They could not do that. I mean, it was clearly white supremacy in racism. But what I am bringing this up to show one of the many examples is that when they started their coup d'etat, and they were on their way to march to City Hall to run the people out of City Hall, the first target of the racist insurrectionists, was the Black newspaper in that town. They burned the building to the ground. And they ran the editor out of town, he ended up coming to Philadelphia. And as it turns out, he ended up founding one of the first, one of the larger civil rights groups in the city. But why did they attack this guy's newspaper and burn it down? And by the way, that was the only black owned daily newspaper in the entirety of the United States, at that time, 1898. Well, this, publisher, editor had editorialized against lynching. Newspapers and politicians, and everybody down in North Carolina, and all across the South were very much in favor of lynching. He said it was wrong. And because of that, he initiated the hire of these races, and they burned the place down. The governor of North Carolina at the time, and the U.S. president refused to send the National Guard and to, unequal the rebellion. And because they did not do that, those who are part of that racist mob, became the leaders of Wilmington. That is the only successful insurrection in U.S. history. So, we have the journalists in 2021, being singled out because of racism. And we have a journalist in 1898, being singled out because of racism, and is both in North Carolina. And that is just one example. And then I could give you an example, example, example, example. All across the country of this, you know, time and time again. Of the very inception of this country. SM: 1:27:26 I think, I think that- I think Dr. Harry Edwards was, had some issues when he was at Berkeley. LW: 1:27:34 Oh yeah, definitely. SM: 1:27:36 Because he had been, he had been writing some of the, [inaudible] Black students. He wrote some great, great books. He was, massive numbers of articles and magazines, and he was not getting tenure. I mean, come on. And so [crosstalk] go ahead. LW: 1:27:53 When I went up for Temple, when I went up for tenure, the president of the university tried to, to stop it. The president of Temple University tried to stop it. "You are just a journalist," this is what he sneered at me one day. "You are just a journalist." SM: 1:28:09 Which president was that? LW: 1:28:12 A guy named Adam Manny. SM: 1:28:13 Okay, yeah. Okay. Very good. LW: 1:28:15 Yeah-yeah. And what they were, what they say it is, you know, "Yes, you. Yes. In the six years that you have been here you published five thousand newspaper articles, 5000 newspaper articles, in addition to teaching, but you have not been published in a scholarly journal," while I was under the practice track, not the scholarly track. And they said, "Well, you were supposed to be under the scholarly track," I said, "No, I was not. This is what they told me to do. And I did that." And so, they said, "Well, there was a letter that was sent from your department chair, to the then dean, that said that you could either be a scholar or a practitioner." Two things: number one, I never saw that letter. Never ever saw it. It was not even sent to me or supposed to be sent to me. And number two, the letter that they are citing the saying that I am not entitled to tenure, because I did not do the scholarly track. Say that Professor Washington could do scholar or practice. So, when I found out about that, I dusted off my old year law school civil procedure books and had to give them a lesson on the meaning of either in or, and, and because of that, they backed up and backed off. SM: 1:29:49 Right. LW: 1:29:50 Yeah. I, my last year at the Philadelphia Daily News from (19)88 to (19)89. I left there in (19)89 and went to work for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. But I had a fellowship at the Yale Law School, they have a journalism fellowship program every year, they bring journalists in to give them a better understanding of the law. And I went to Yale Law School. So, I knew a little bit about the law. And also, when I came back to the Daily News, I was unqualified for promotion, despite having a master's degree from the Yale law school. And I left there, left the paper, and then went to work for the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania. For three years, I was a special assistant. And then by the time I get to Temple, you know, somehow, I am just a journalist. [laughs] SM: 1:30:36 Wow, you, I know you are, I know [crosstalk] LW: 1:30:41 Yeah, I am sorry, go ahead. SM: 1:30:42 I know, you are much more than-than that having seen you in two programs at my former place of employment- you are you are indeed a scholar. And, and, and a great person that influences young people in a very positive way. And let me, just two final questions here. I, we had already you had already talked about the watershed moment of being in the 1968 Olympics. It is interesting that one of my latter questions was going to be activism and sports. I bring this up, because we brought Tommy Smith to our campus. So, I got a chance to know Tommy when he was at our school before I left, but when you think of Tommy Smith, and John Carlos, and the other athletes from that time you think of black power, and you think of the, that term empowerment but, but we have also heard from today's certainly with Kaepernick, and Harry Edwards has been a big writer on this, as well as a supporter for Kaepernick that, you know, when Kaepernick sat down at that football game, he did not say anything, he just sat down, he was making a statement toward police brutality, killings of black men, around America. That was his comment. He was not making any other comments. And I am amazed at how the media stared interpreting it from every direction. And that was not why he did it. But then it got into this big controversy that you know; athletes should never speak up. Athletes should be quiet, you know, shut up, you know, just like entertainers, entertainers, and athletes. You are not, you know, just be quiet. So your thoughts on what is going on, you know, between (19)68, and today, not only with the Kaepernick issue, but also the fact when people are talking about the protests of today, Black Lives Matter, all these new groups that they say, "We are the reincarnation of the (19)60s." Do you like when you hear that? LW: 1:30:48 [laughs] Clear limits, let me just say this. Professor Harry Edwards was a part of the Olympic boycott movement. And it succeeded. He was one of the organizers in the intellectual, you know, spark plug for that in the months leading up to that, you know, he was holding meetings and conferences and negotiations, you know, trying to get all the athletes on board with it. So, he was a part of that. Let me jump forward to Colin Kaepernick, because [laughs] I wrote a chapter that is now in a book that came out last fall on critical race theory. Now, I am not a critical race theorist, and I am not a scholar, all right. Let me be clear on that. But one of the things that I brought out is how the media covered Kaepernick. Kaepernick was on the, the sideline, taking a knee, the first person that went to interview, Kaepernick was the first Black reporter that NFL, NFL Network had ever hired. He knew Kaepernick, you know, from covering, and he just went over, despite all the other reporters being there, and he went over, "Why you got on why are you on your knees?" Nobody even thought to go over talk to the guy. And he said, you know, Kaepernick said that he was making a, his own protest against police brutality and abusive policing. Now, what is more humbling than to take a knee? Did he stand up during the national anthem and put his hand in the air, not even with a Black power first, but with the middle finger? No, he took a knee. The coverage of that, as you rightfully said, just was way over the top, a mile wide but an inch thick because it provided no context. When they referenced Kaepernick talking about police brutality, they said he is complaining about the shooting in Ferguson or Michael Brown and the choking death of Eric Gardener in Staten Island, New York City. Of all of the thousands of articles in minutes, to hours of news coverage, no one, no one contextualized police brutality within San Francisco. August of 2016 is when Kaepernick did his thing in, April that year, the mayor of the city fired the police commissioner for the police commissioner's failure to address police brutality. That morning of the press conference where the mayor fired the police commissioner, the police shot and killed an unarmed woman in one of the Black communities. About a month and a half after that, the results from an investigation that was conducted by three judges in California, including a former member of California Supreme Court, they were looking at the issue of racist text messages and Facebook postings by members of the San Francisco Police. So, we have two major findings of substantive issues involving brutality in San Francisco, and no one connected any of that to Kaepernick. A month after, yeah, a month after Kaepernick took his knee, the U.S. Department of Justice issued their pattern and practice investigation into San Francisco police and condemned brutality in San Francisco, that was not connected. San Francisco is located across the bay from a town called Oakland, California. What happened in Oakland, California in 1966, an organization called the Black Panther Party for self-defense was formed to counter the police brutality in Oakland at that time. And the Black newspaper, or one of the black newspapers in San Francisco, who wrote an editorial in 1969, condemning police brutality. And they said that this had been a problem in San Francisco, going back 25 years. So that would have put it back in the late (19)40s. So, we have this decades long history of documented police brutality in San Francisco, and none, none of the news coverage of Kaepernick put that in there, not even a sentence, not even have an oblique reference to it. And, you know, just so we could, perhaps short circuit the, well, that is Colin Kaepernick and none of that would ever happen to him because he is a star, please. The report that the judges put out, had an examination of an incident that happened to San Francisco to a guy named Alexander Natto. He was Latino guy, law abiding, working, never doing anything wrong, walking to, walking through a park on his way to work. He worked as a security guard, he has a taser. He is eating a burrito, walking through a park on his way to work. Somebody in that gentrified neighborhood walking their dog sees a colored person, who he thinks has a gun and is menacing people, eating a burrito, because the police. The police arrived, and fifteen shots later, with the majority of the shots in the guy's back after he is on the ground. He is dead. But why do I bring this up in relation to Colin Kaepernick? Because Natto at the time, was wearing a brand-new NFL, store purchased, San Francisco forty-niners’ jacket and hat. So, he was shot in San Francisco, forty-niners gear. So, Kaepernick could have had the same fears that the officers, you know, an encounter with an officer he could have gotten killed. But again, contextually none of that was included in news coverage. And the Society of Professional Journalists ethics code urges journalists to always include context in their coverage. And this was something that would be, the Kerner Commission also emphasized in his 1968 report. Yet, in 2016, not a single reporter in the country sought to contextualize what is happening. What should I say, not a single reporter or coverage in mainstream media, because athletic media and alternative media did bring this up, but not the mainstream media. SM: 1:39:58 Yeah, it is, it is a great analysis between (19)68 and 2020. Nothing is really changed. Nothing is really changed. And I think I am going to conclude the interview with you just to bring back about what you are doing today in your work as a professor of journalism at Temple. I know I saw your bio, and you are involved in a lot of different things there. Could you kind of just briefly describe the kinds of courses you are teaching, the kind of impact you think you are having on the future journalists of tomorrow, and, and then any projects you might be doing in the community? LW: 1:40:41 Okay. Well, currently, I am teaching in the Journalism Department at Temple University, I always teach a writing course, I was a co-founder of their award-winning hyperlocal news site called "Philadelphianeighborhoods.com." It is a multimedia community-based reporting program. So, I do, teaching of basic reporting skills, and multimedia skills at the undergraduate level and the graduate level, I am primarily now teaching in the graduate program. I do a lot of what is called study aways. I have taken students to London three times, and the South Africa three times. The South Africa program has been the only study abroad program at Temple University that has ever won any awards. We have won awards every year that we have gone over there, including international awards. From the coverage of the students, we take them into the townships, we literally take them from the corporate suites at the top of buildings to, to caves and mines. So, they see a diversity there. That is what I do in terms of Temple University. Right now, I am involved in two book projects. One is looking at the 1985 moon bombing but looking at it primarily from the perspective of journalists of color who covered that event. And then, I am also involved in a book project related to Dr. Martin Luther King and his first protest that took place not in Montgomery, Alabama, but Maple Shade, New Jersey- SM: 1:42:13 Wow. LW: 1:42:13 -where he had a sit-in at a restaurant on June 12, 1950. This was Dr. King's first demonstration, his first sit-in against racism that led to his first lawsuit against racism. However, the Office of Historic Preservation in New Jersey, those who designate what should be historically recognized and what should not have determined that King's first protest, and his first lawsuit, and his first lawsuit was filed by the NAACP in New Jersey. And the person who was the president of the NAACP was the person who had lobbied for the passage of a civil rights law in New Jersey, a statewide, desegregation law, the first in the nation. Those are the people who helped Dr. King, yet the historic office in New Jersey says that it has a minimal historic importance. So, I am writing a book about this blue state bigotry, where these people can claim that Dr. Martin Luther King's first protest, and where he planned that protests in Camden, has no historic import SM: 1:42:14 Oh my god. LW: 1:42:18 These are the same, these are the same people who gave a historic designation to the house of the brother of the famous poet Walt Whitman, now Walt Whitman lived for a month in, in Camden. And he came there because that is where his brother was. But his brother did not achieve anything in life. I do not mean to say he did not achieve anything in life. But his claim to fame in life was just being the brother of Walt Whitman. He is not the transformative individual of Dr. Martin Luther King. So, we see, different shades of bigotry- SM: 1:44:09 My gosh. LW: 1:44:10 -denial of the recognition of Dr. Martin Luther King. So that is one of the projects that I am involved in. And other than that, I am just getting old. [laughter] SM: 1:44:18 We all are. Yeah, I-I want to thank you for, and I apologize for the delay. And let me turn this out. Thank you very much. And I am going to turn the tape off right now. Thank you. Thank you, Linn. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Linn Washington IIIF Item Metadata UUID aedbf716-3336-449b-91f8-c7d63e12a780 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e27f2dc53b45ef8f06ea8ef171ca17df.jpeg 48dc3521a08a7081264f0c89eb45f8e5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7834a42ac41cd495dd8afd4f66a0d4fa.MP3 5c356abfdd34f052f109147af336991a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 19 November 2019 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Joseph Lewis Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:31:26 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Joseph Lewis, originally from Massillon, Ohio, is a survivor of the Kent State shootings. Lewis was an 18-year-old freshman, studying pre-professional social work when he was shot while attending the student protest rally in 1970. He quit school in 1972 and moved to Oregon, where he has resided ever since. Lewis retired from the Scappoose, Oregon Public Works Department in 2013 as supervisor of the water treatment plant. He also served 16 years on the Scappoose Board of Education. Keywords Cleveland; Boomer generation; Civil Rights Movement; 1960s; Woodstock generation; College campus; President Nixon; Vietnam War; Student activism; Kent State shooting; Trust. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Joseph Lewis Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger and Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 2 December 2021 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 All right. My first question, Joe, is where did you grow up, and what were your parents’ careers and backgrounds in your early years? And when you talk about this, also describe your elementary and high school years. JL: 00:18 Okay, that is a good question. I grew up on the near west side of Cleveland. I think a part of town used to be called the old Brooklyn. It is where the Christmas story is set kind of SM: 00:32 Oh, that one. JL: 00:33 [inaudible] from long ago. And, and I grew up I went to the elementary schools in Cleveland from the from kindergarten to the fourth grade, and I will name the schools and you will, you will see commonality I went to kindergarten at St. Mary's kindergarten. And I went to first to fourth grade in Cleveland that Our Lady of Good Counsel school, and then we moved just outside of Parma, Ohio, and I went to fourth to eighth grade at St. Francis de Sales school. And then my family moved to Massillon, Ohio, just 50 miles south of Cleveland, because my dad was a traveling salesman, and that was more centrally located because sales area, where I enrolled at Central Catholic High School in Canton. So, you will see the commonality there. I went to all parochial schools, as did all my brothers and sisters. I was the oldest of eight kids, seven who survive. And my dad, my dad was a salesman for a couple of different lumber wholesalers, United States plywood, and then later warehouse. And my mom was a homemaker, you know, in those days, you could get by with one income. SM: 01:57 Right. During those first- do you want to add anything more? JL: 02:06 Always. But go ahead. [laughs] SM: 02:08 During, the question? I think you are a Catholic then, right. [laughter] JL: 02:13 Oh yeah, oh yeah, that is true. SM: 02:17 During those- JL: 02:19 Good deduction. [laughter] SM: 02:21 I can put two and two together there. During your first 18 years of life, did you identify with your generation called Boomer, I mean- JL: 02:34 Oh, I am so stereotypically boomer. I mean, I was a boy scout, an altar boy. I was a kind of a goody, goody, I did not, I did not challenge too many of the rules in those days. So, it was like the Eisenhower era, you know, and things were- it was post-war, booming as they say and, and everything was-was kind of like growing. And I was very stereotypical of the era, I would think. SM: 03:06 Did you did you in your neighborhood, at your schools, your parents’ friends, were a lot of the parents World War Two veterans and if they were, did you ever, did they ever talk about World War Two? JL: 03:21 I grew up on the, when I was on the near west side our-our community was a lot of immigrants from different parts of the world. We had, on my street we had, my grandparents came from Slovakia, my maternal grandparents. So, there were Slovak people. There were Polish people. There were Italian people. There were Puerto Rican people, and German people all on our street. And so, I do not remember too much of the parents discussing World War Two. And I think that my parents were a little bit younger. They were too young for World War Two and too old for Korea. My dad, he was born in (19)30. So-so he himself was not, was not a Vet. And I do not remember too much discussion about it. Although you remember the, I assume you are a boomer too? SM: 04:20 Oh, yeah. I am front edge. JL: 04:22 Remember, remember our entertainment was all about I mean, World War Two movies and heroism: and patriotism: was-was all over the entertainment world at that time. But as far as the discussion of World War Two Vets, I did not I did not get exposed to that too much. Now, my grandfather lost a brother in World War Two. And, and he would, you know, they call it cursing. But what it really is-is when cursing is really when you invoke the names of the dead. When he would get really-really mad, he would say, "Oh, for the love of Mike" and that would be his brother who was killed in the war. SM: 04:59 Wow, yeah. Yeah, I grew up in, in a community where there were a lot of vets, but they never talked about the war, it was nothing, it was just raising- JL: 05:08 Yeah. SM: 05:09 -a family going to work. Mom was at home taking care of the kids, dad was out making the money. So that is kind of that happened to a lot. JL: 05:17 Yeah. SM: 05:18 You know, as far as you know, the boomers themselves, you know, you have you lived long enough now to be a young boomer and an older boomer. When you were young through say, 40, what were some of the qualities that you admired in your, in your generation, when they were younger? Especially the front edge boomers that were born between (19)46 and say, (19)57, because boomers go up to (19)64? JL: 05:46 Well, you know, I do not know, if I really reflected on-on that, that much. I am proud of the things that, that our generation has-has done, I think that we brought attention to the environment and, and to war policies and, and to treatment of minorities. You know, and we, of course, I think what impressed me most was the was the Civil Rights Movement. Martin Luther King was the greatest American of my lifetime. And, and the effort he led to you, get equality for all, I think, is what-what I am kind of most focused on as a positive of our time here and in the USA. And there were struggles, you know, it was a struggle of the new the new appreciation of what was real and who was being treated fairly and who was not. SM: 06:50 Yeah, it is interesting, because when we were young boomers, there was a summer of (19)64, which is when all those young people, a lot of African Americans, but a lot of white Americans who went down the south to try to get African Americans to vote, and risked their lives in doing so. And that was in (19)64. So, and that was- JL: 07:11 Yeah-yeah. SM: 07:11 -right at the time when we were in high school. JL: 07:15 Right. SM: 07:16 So, there was a lot of that, that that happening as well. And, and, you know, there was a lot of books being written now on the boomer generation, because we were now the oldest generation- can you believe it? It is hard to believe that this generation that, you know, when they were young thought they would probably never grow old. But when you reflect on this whole generation, as a whole now as a person, and probably in your early 70s, what are, did they succeed? Or did they fail in their kind of their, you know, when we talk about the protest movement, and talking about the-the amount of activists that were probably only about 7 or 8 percent, of the 74 million, who are truly activists in their lifetime. But when you look at that, their accomplishments over time, there is a lot of commentary now, some say they were, they were no different than any other generation, what made them different, in your view? JL: 08:14 Well, the unique opportunity. I think we had to, to live in a country at a time when it was booming economically and when there was a great growth of free time. And we-we did not have to struggle just to stay alive. So, we could experiment with thoughts, ideas and practices that before were not, I do not think they were within the reach of, of people, some of the things that we had the opportunity to do like travel and, and just experiment with different ways of thinking in organizations. And I think we benefited from, from the relative peace after World War Two that allowed us, allowed our families to thrive. And give us give us stability you know, in our, in our daily lives. I think that, I think that in many ways we-we did succeed and opening, opening the discussion for like, we talked about the Civil Rights Movement and the environmental movement, American Indian Movement, anti-war movement, and I mean, those were struggles that are more, I would say more or less successful at least in drawing attention to the problems- not in solving them, but at least in pointing them out is an important thing I think. SM: 09:52 You raise something very important, Joe and then it is, you know what, when you are, we had time to be able to discuss these things with our peers, with their teachers with even our parents. And, and so it is like the sense of kind of, we were around people who talked like we did about the things we cared about- civil rights, ending the war, whatever, as a kind of sense of community. There was a sense of some sort of a community, which is also often times divide, it is part of a quality of being an activist. JL: 10:31 Yeah, I, you know, well, my sense of community is, I mean, I am the oldest of eight. And so, I tend to be an extrovert and kind of a bossy to brothers anyway, so I had a lot of networking in high school, and I had the friends in all different kinds of groups and, and people who thought like me, and people who did not think like me. But eventually going to college for a while, and then and then kind of, kind of identifying with like, the anti-war movement and cultural, certain cultural appreciations, focused my-my group identity even more, and so. So, in a way that is good, in a way it is bad and the way it is good is that I did get great discussions about ideas, and feelings and sentiments that I had. But it also, we see from the developments recently with the Facebook algo- algorithms and things that it, kind of is an isolating in a way to be around people who think like you. SM: 11:43 It is true. JL: 11:45 So-so I had both of those effects. But yeah, I definitely felt a sense of community and in those heady days of (19)68, (19)69, (19)70, when it seemed like, you know, the Woodstock generation. I mean, it seems a far cry to say the boomers are the same as the Woodstock generation, but I guess we are and, and it seemed like there was a change on the horizon for the better. And it was just about to flip to where appreciations would be modified away from profit and more for the, you know, the desire to do right and be good and fair. And just and. SM: 12:33 Did you- JL: 12:33 I think there was a part of the community I recognized. SM: 12:36 Yeah, did you feel, yes, you personally, you are, you are a young person. This is I am feeling [inaudible] myself here, too. I felt, it was great to be young. I cannot explain it. JL: 12:47 Oh, yeah. SM: 12:47 Yeah, I could be. I could be on a bus. And I would see a beautiful girl or a woman and she was part of my generation. I could I could go over and talk to her. And I did, [inaudible]. But I could talk to her. I felt good. I mean, there was I felt good about myself. And my generation. JL: 13:07 Yeah, you know, there was a commonality. I mean, if your hair was a little bit long, or if you had on, if you have on bell bottom pants, or beads or something, you had identifiers that kind of gave away some of your thinking. SM: 13:24 Right. JL: 13:25 Which meant-meant you were thinking like me. So, there was like an automatic network evolved for based on sight clues, I guess you would say. SM: 13:36 If you have any, you know, there was a talk back then about what they call the generation gap. There is, in fact, one of my individuals I interviewed wrote the book on the generation gap and his father and person he worked for- was there a generation gap in your family? JL: 13:53 Oh, definitely was, yeah, definitely was. My dad was, I think, voted for Nixon, at least once. And, and he was, he was not a powerfully strong conservative, but he you know, was, was a, this was the time, and I do not need to tell you, before Watergate. So, before Watergate, the people did not question what the government said as to being truthful or not. And so, there was I think there was an [inaudible]- and I did, I questioned the truth of the reports going back from Vietnam about how hard we were winning that war and, and our purposes for being there and so forth. And so, we did have a generation gap, my dad, after I was shot at Kent State, he assumed that I had done something wrong, which in fact, I did not. I mean, I-I did give some men with the rifle a finger, which is a bad idea, but it is not a crime. And it took some convincing for him to, to get to that way of thinking. So, we did have a bit of a generation gap and, and I mean I was his first, his first child and it is challenging one I am so sorry dad, rest in peace. SM: 15:20 Well, I am going right now to your undergraduate school. Why did you pick Kent State to go there as your undergraduate? JL: 15:28 Well-well, I will finish my I finished my, my monologue about the different schools I attended. And I will tell you the colleges I applied to. When I was a junior in high school, I started to apply to colleges. And I applied to Gonzaga University in Spokane. Xavier University in Cincinnati, St. Louis, Washington University in St. Louis, Notre Dame in South Bend, and Kent State, all of them being Catholic schools, except for Kansas State. And I had good SAT scores, I was accepted to all of them. But I could not afford them because I was paying my own way and working full time and going to school full time. So, I actually applied for and received a partial award to go to Notre Dame from the Rocco foundation in Canton, Ohio, but it was still not within my means to attend Notre Dame. So, I wound up going to State University, Kent State, which in those days was unbelievably affordable, unbelievably affordable. SM: 16:45 Could you describe your college years, I am going to certainly get into the May 4th situation? JL: 16:52 Yeah. SM: 16:52 -but could you describe your college years at Kent State both before and after, I do not know how to say this, before and after April 30th, to May 4th, 1970? JL: 17:06 Oh, yeah. Well, for me that is a college year. [laughs] SM: 17:11 Yeah. JL: 17:12 I started school in September of (19)69 at Kent State, and that was a month after Woodstock. And you know, it was a few months before the assassination of Black Panthers in the apartment in Chicago. It was after the Beatles broke up but so going to, I got into the dormitory, Johnson Hall. And it was, as I said, I was the oldest child in my family. And so, I have done my share of babysitting and kid watching and it was the ultimate freedom to be free from my-my parents' home not that they were ever, it was ever a bad home. But I had to, you know time to come and go at the times I chose and of course, I had to do my own laundry. But I had a meal plan and two roommates in the dorm room where I lived and I was just really free to experiment with life and learning. And I loved learning. I was taking biology and French and anthropology and English in lots of different, you know, curious, and sociology was my major. And I just loved learning but I also loved freedom so that in the spring of spring of (19)70, in March, my friend and I hitchhiked around the East Coast, we-we hitchhiked down to see his cousin in Kentucky and his cousin was on spring break. So, we went on down to Georgia. We hitchhiked you know, back and forth and different places and visiting friends in Ohio and elsewhere. And it was just an enormous, enormous glory of freedom. And the, one of the things I remember most is walking around the campus that fall and the music coming out of the windows- people you know, were free now from their parents' strictures of "Turn that thing down" like I was. And then there was there was high volume music coming out of every dorm window. It was like, it was like the new bands were Led Zeppelin, Crosby, Stills and Nash, you know, McCartney's solo album, the Dead, the Stones, you know, the Beatles, a whole anthology, it was amazing. I mean, and just think, you know, to think the first time you heard Led Zeppelin blasting out of a dorm room window as you walked along, you know, it was just-just to transportive to a whole different, you know, like, this is our time now. SM: 19:54 Yes. JL: 19:55 Rock and roll was blasting and it was it was exciting. It was very exciting. I, you know, I did, I had tried smoking a little weed and taking a little psychedelic and, and, you know, that was, that was also added a twist of interest to things and drinking, you know, drinking the three-two beer that was available [crosstalk]. Geez. So, there was lots, of lots of new things, you know, and then the relationships with, with both guys and girls. I was making friends from with people from all over the country, meeting beautiful girls from all over the, over the country. And, you know, it was just a vibrant, exciting time. And it seemed very hopeful and the future was full of prospects. Because, you know, if you had a college degree in the (19)70s, you were going to get a job somewhere and hopefully doing something you liked. And I was exploring different, different courses. And I really liked anthropology. But mostly, like I said, my major was pre-professional social work. I wanted to do something to change the world for the better. I guess that was my goal. SM: 21:13 Yeah, you said when you when you look at Kansas State when you first got there, did you think that was more of a tranquil campus before (19)70 or did you sense that it was an activist campus from the get go? JL: 21:26 I knew that there had been some political activity there. But that was not really what the focus was on. In fact, I remember very clearly my, my freshman orientation the summer before I went to school there, they, they were quick, quick to point out that there were 28 bars in five blocks. And that there was live music, live music almost every night and every weekend and [inaudible] and the ratio of girls to boys at Kent State was two to one. And people came from all over northeastern Ohio for the nightlife scenes on the weekends. I mean, the James Gang, Joe Walsh was the house band- SM: 22:05 Oh yeah. JL: 22:06 -and local bars and, and there was other, you know, musicians would come through Kent and have shown there that were fantastic. So, the activism: was not the first thing that that that anyone thought of at that time. Although I really had not been tuned in to some of the Black United Students activities- SM: 22:26 Right. JL: 22:26 -and the occupation of the music and speech. I did not. I maybe had read about it, but did not focus in on it so much. SM: 22:34 You know, it is interesting, because the history books I have written this for a years when they talk about the tragedy, I as we all say, as they all need to say, the murderers at Kent State and-and- JL: 22:47 Yeah, absolutely. SM: 22:47 -so, I have been corrected to make sure that not the tragedy, more the murderers at Kent State. But the word on the street and on many of the history books that have been written is why did this happen, why did this tragedy happen of all places at Kent State? Why not Ohio State, why not Ohio University, which was at the time I worked there. Was one of the most liberal campuses, where massive protests were taking place or a place like Columbia, or Berkeley or even Harvard or Wisconsin, but four were killed at Kent State and the perception was in the media coverage is this tranquil campus in the Midwest. JL: 23:28 Yeah. SM: 23:28 You know, that it happened there so now the war came home to America. Your just, your thoughts on that? JL: 23:36 Well, that is, that is kind of a hard to analyze, given what happened there after all, but there was a real town and gown division in I think, a lot of college towns and that was certainly true at Kent, we had, you know, old time farmers, farmland all around the town and, and there was definitely a difference in opinion between the people who lived in Canton, families had lived there for a long time and the students who had come from all over the northeastern United States to attend there. But I think that one source for good background is Tom Grace's book which talked about the history of Northeastern Ohio and he- SM: 24:23 Yes. JL: 24:23 -he reminds us of some things we kind of forgot about. My grandfather who came from Slovakia, got a job in Republic steel mills and worked his whole life I mean, in the steel mills as a union steel worker and Akron had both Goodrich and Goodyear Tire and Rubber, the rubber capital of the world and in Pittsburgh and Youngstown all had steel mills and steel manufacturing plants. And it was it was a place where there was, there were many working people who had been organized into unions and who had learned how to-to speak for their own rights and stand up to the to the bosses and ask for fair wages. And so, there was a background of political activity. It was not exactly antiwar activity, and it was not necessarily student activity. But this area was booming, it was just going through a huge, a huge growth, you know, of employment and workers and families rising from rising from the lowest level of working class up into some kind of middle-class comfort, buying homes in the suburbs. And-and I think, you know, I do not know if that explains anything, but what the situation was very dynamic there. SM: 25:45 Yeah, I have read that book. And, and I will be, I will be interviewing him as well, in the next couple of weeks. JL: 25:52 Good, [crosstalk] SM: 25:52 Because he has agreed to be interviewed. He is very busy, I think helping with Alan's archives and other and other things and speaking, and he is a professor, so he has got a lot on his on his table. JL: 26:04 Yes, he does. SM: 26:04 Yeah, you know, the whole thing of what created the tension, you were not easy to describe some of the things there because the town gown relations are terrible, even at the school that I went to here in Binghamton, New York. It was terrible. And that, what would you say, created the tension at Kent State leading up to Nixon's speech on April 30th, of (19)70? Because as a nation, not only at Kent State, but Ohio State where I went to grad school, I know what happened on that campus. The campuses erupted after that speech. Did you hear this speech? JL: 26:42 Yes, I well, I did not actually hear it. I read about it on a ticker tape machine at Taylor Hall on Kent State campus. I do not know, you probably know what a ticker tape machine is. SM: 26:54 Yes. JL: 26:54 Some folks, may not [laughter] and, and I read it as it was news that night, April 30th, 11 or something that night, I was walking around with my girlfriend and we were in Taylor Hall. And read that news there for the you know, when it was still hot off the presses. And then you know, saw the follow up on the in the TV evening news and news the next day. And the reaction around the country of the expansion of the war where Nixon, I blamed President Nixon and Governor Rhodes for the murders at Kent State because they set the scene. Nixon said that he would bring us together and had a secret plan to end the war and he was just lying to get elected and to hold on to power and the same thing was happening with Governor, Governor Rhodes who after the RTC building was burned, he made a huge, huge speech, inflammatory speech with the with the guard already present on the on the university campus, about the terrible terrorists who were organized and behind this, which was hyperbolic to say the least. He was really giving the-the antiwar movement a lot more credibility than it deserved at the time for their organization, their ability to create violent resistance and, and I think they painted a picture that was far more dire than was necessary at the time and resulted in the overreaction, and murder and wounding of students at Kent State and other places, in Jackson State around the country. SM: 28:39 In your own words, because it is very important that that I do interview all the people that are still alive that were wounded at Kent State, I am actually going to be interviewing a person who was a professor at Westchester who was a student at Kent State and she was witnessing everything from her residence hall right next to the, where the it all happened. But when you, if you could describe in your own words, you. What you were doing between the 30th of April and May 5th, the day after the tra- the killings happened, just in your own words. What you saw, witnessed, experienced, were involved in, people students you spoke to, what, how did all those students come to that, the green by the bell? Because people that are going to be hearing your interview are people that are not even alive yet. They are going to be studying and doing your research on the (19)60s and Kent State is a watershed event in that era. JL: 29:50 Well, on the Commons at Kent State there is what they called the victory bell which was supposed to be used for athletic victories but it was more commonly in those days used to-to call crowds together for assemblies. And-and so for the period that you are talking about from the time of the Cambodian incursion, until May 5th, I was not present for Friday demonstration of burying the Constitution because they said Nixon had killed the Constitution. I did not witness that but I read about it in the campus paper later. And they said that they were planning a follow up demonstration for Monday afternoon. And so, I read about that, but had not really thought much more than that about it. And Saturday, I also watched from my dorm room, which is Johnson Hall, which is immediately adjacent to the commons and Taylor Hall and the pagoda. And I watched as some, crowd assembled around the ROTC building, which there had been rumors that it would be targeted because of the presence on campus as a as a, you know, as a supporter of the war, of the war in Vietnam. And so, I went outside of my dorm and watched from the grass in front of the dorm, from a distance as some people kind of attempted to set the building on fire, unsuccessfully, several times. And they threw a safety flare on the roof and it rolled off without doing anything and they broke a window and, and lit drapes on fire and it flamed up and burned out. And then somebody in the front of the crowd- I do not know who, it was dark, and I did not know people. Somebody said, "Let us go get some more supporters." And so, the crowd marched around the whole campus, which is pretty large. And so that took, you know, 45 minutes or so. And we, I followed along behind the crowd. And we marched around the campus to a couple of the other dormitories asking people to join us and then forward to the front of the campus, past the president of the university's house, which was a well-guarded by people at the driveway and out onto the highway that connected Ravenna and Kent, and actually stopped and stopped traffic and people in the front of the crowd were blocking traffic with, they pull like construction equipment out onto the road and blocked traffic and compressors and trailers and stuff. And then people will shortly behind them would move them back out of the way. It was kind of like we do not want to really cause that much disruption. And I followed along behind and watched this happen until we got back to the front of the campus and we started to turn and go back towards my dormitory basically, which is back towards the ROTC building. And as we turned and headed back onto campus, that is when the Ohio National Guard arrived from the east, from Ravenna in trucks and jeeps and-and armored personnel carriers. So, they came rolling down the highway. And so, I turned in hightailed it back to my dormitory. And when I got there, that building was fully engulfed in flames, which I always thought was suspicious since it seemed like the attempts to ignite it previously had been unsuccessful. So, the so I went to my dorm and my-my dorm window faced the other ways. So, I went across the hall, to my friend Tom's room, and we watched out his window as the ROTC building went up in flames and burned and, and I know it is super cliché, but I have to say that while this was happening, the radio station from Cleveland, I think it was WMS was playing for what it is worth, you know, "Something is Happening Here." SM: 34:07 Wow. JL: 34:07 This building is just flaming up and I am thinking, wow, what-what the hell you know. And so, the next day, Sunday there was, the guards who had arrived on campus that night, Saturday after the building was burned. 900 members of the Ohio National Guard were bivouacked on the Kent State campus. And they were positioned in front of the different administration buildings and different places around campus. But it was a fairly nice spring morning in northeastern Ohio, it can be pretty that time of year and-and so students and Co-eds and people were walking around having conversations with the guardsmen who were in you know, their-their steel helmets with-with their rifles and bayonets fixed on the end. And it was just a very, very bizarre to be occupied by your own army, is how it felt and-and it was very much a feeling of the war has come home. You know here-here you are at school and here are these people ready for war and so-so Sunday was just a real mix of strange feelings until the governor came to the came to the firehouse in Kent and made the most inflammatory speech, banged his fist on the table, talking about the worst people in American history of being present here, these organized student rebels and-and he gave, like I say he gave the antiwar organization a lot more credit than I thought it deserved for being effective and organized and bloodthirsty. It was not, there was not any of the way he described it that way. But I think that the guardsmen were inspired by his hatred. And there was also a rip came down that there would be no assemblies allowed of four or more people. And that the National Guard will be breaking up any assemblies of groups of people. But they also said that Monday there would be classes as usual. So, you have quite an irony there when you are having students go to classes and guardsmen breaking up you know, groups of four. Well, Sunday I, I was on, I stayed in the dorm area. But friends of mine went down to protest against the curfew. And it was a 10 o'clock curfew in the streets of Kent and 11 o'clock on the campus if I am not mistaken. And some friends of mine went to go talk to the university president and the mayor about lifting the curfew so that we could you know, go about our schooling business. And nobody ever came to talk to them, although they were promised that they would, they just sat down in the street and said, you know, wait here, we will get them to speak to you which they never did come but after the curfew time arrived, the National Guard who had surrounded these demonstrators who are peacefully sitting in the street and singing songs of the era, at a curfew time, they surrounded them and started lobbing tear gas into the group. And so, there was pandemonium, I am told and students ran and some were bayonetted that night and others were chased and beaten. And it was from my view at the dorm, it was one of the scariest sights I have seen where there were helicopters, three helicopters with search lights, hovering overhead and [crosstalk] tear gas on the campus with platoons of guardsmen shoulder to shoulder, bayonets at the ready, herding students into dormitories because they were out past curfew. And I spoke later that night with my-my resident counselor Lou, who said that he had witnessed, he was trying to conduct students to come in the end of our, of our dorm and escape the guardsmen, and they can go through the building and out the other way to their dorms. And as he got the last student, in the guardsmen behind him lunged with his bayonet and he, Luke pulled the door shut on the guy's knife, as he lunged to try and get the students and so it was a very ugly scene. SM: 38:34 Wow. JL: 38:35 And he and I stayed up talking that night for a while and discussed whether or not those guns would be loaded with live ammunition. And we have kind of concluded there was really no need for them to be loaded with live ammunition. And I do not know if we suggested they had blanks, or why we would think that but we were pretty sure there was no need for live ammunition in those guns. But we also said it was hard to tell who was wearing the white hats and who was wearing the black hats because while students were throwing things out their windows at the dorms at the guardsmen, the guardsmen were also throwing rocks at the students' windows in the dormitories and-and it was it was just real ugly, it was a real ugly scene that night. So, Monday was classes as usual, with guardsmen all along the burned-out ashes of ROTC building. And I went to a couple of classes actually and the sociology professors and two messages one was the "Keep safe, stay low and stay out of sight" and the other was, "It is a participatory democracy and if you want your voice heard you need to get out there and do it" and I, I kind of took a second tack I wanted to support the-the protest, protesting the presence of an invasion and occupation of our campus by- SM: 39:56 Yes. JL: 39:56 -the National Guard. But I wanted to do it in a peaceful way, you know, the way Martin Luther King showed us and the way Mahatma Gandhi showed us that, you know, collective action peaceably with a large number of people can get can get results. And so, I was headed for, I kind of think of it now as a, I was headed for some kind of street theater demonstration, but the National Guard were coming to war. And so, this was not going to be a good, good, good mix. And then, so I watched, I watched the National Guard, you know, tried to tell the students to disperse. And they said, "Students this is illegal assembly, return to your dormitories." And they said that a few times with more cat calls and more upraised fingers, and-and finally, when the students did not disperse upon the command, they fired tear gas into the crowd, from far distance with like, like, like a grenade launch modified rifles that would shoot across 100 yards. And the wind was such that it was not very effective. So, students could get wet cloths over their mouths, pick up the tear gas canisters and throw them back. And it was it was a back and forth that seemed almost theatrical, at this point, without a sense of doom, which was a mistake on my part, definitely a mistake. And so, when that did not disperse the crowd, they moved forward with their tear gas masks and helmets and bayonets at the ready and split the crowd up that way. And so, I of course, retreated between Taylor Hall and Johnson Hall, which is my dorm. I mean, I was never more than 50 yards from my room actually. I retreated between the two buildings and off to one side and the guardsmen followed up the hill and down on the other side onto the practice football field. And then myself and the students near me reassembled on the hilltop by Taylor Hall overlooking the guardsmen and then watched them take a kneel, and aim their weapons at a vocal part of the crowd, towards the Prentice Hall parking lot where Alan Canfora was with his black flag. And where other activists were yelling at them, and some people threw gravel at them. You know, there was a big deal about throwing rocks, well, they were not rocks, they were gravel, and no guardsmen were injured. But I think it irritated the guardsmen. And that was the part of the crowd where most of the dead were later on. And so, after they kneeled and aimed for a while, a small group of guardsmen gathered in the middle of the field, and then they headed back up the hill the way they had come. And so, what this meant was, they turned and walked directly towards me because of where I had moved to, after they passed by. And so, I of course, moved out of the way again, but I was very near to them. And I could see them jostling, hear their equipment, kind of rattling as it came up the hill. And they kept looking hard back over their right shoulders, which was back in the Prentice Hall parking lot area. And I have always suspected that they were picking targets at this point. And so, when they got to the top of the hill, they were very close to me, kind of right in front of me. And the first three riflemen, turned and leveled their rifles in my direction, as they had knelt and aimed previously down below. And so, I thought this was, again, a gesture of, you know, of a threatening gesture. And so, I gesture back at that time with my middle finger, my right hand up raised, and they had their guns aimed at me. And, you know, I thought it was kind of a theatrical stand up as I, as I said, I came, I came ready for street theater, but they came ready for war. And so, it was not too long, a few seconds passed. And then I saw the ground and I heard, started hearing sounds popping, saw the ground in front of me turn up and I realized that there was actual live ammo in those guns. And simultaneously to that thought I was shot. The bullet hit my right hip, and threw me to the ground where I collapsed on the ground on my back. And I learned later that a second person shot me after I had been on the ground through the lower left leg. And so, as I lay on the ground, there was 13 seconds of solid gunfire. And then it stopped and there was just a heartbeat of unbelievable silence. Before people started screaming about what had happened and what they had just seen. I was laying there and a person, persons came up to me, a person came up to my left. And it turned out to be a brother of a high school classmate of mine. He saw my ID and put it back in my pocket. And then I asked him how bad the wound was. And he said, I think it is just a flesh wound. Because he had seen the exit wound in my left jeans pocket where the bullet exited. I had an entry wound, I had an entry wound to my right front pocket like where your coin change pocket is in your jeans, that was the size of a nickel. And I had an exit wound on my left rear jeans pocket the size of a Coke can. SM: 45:48 Wow. JL: 45:49 And when he saw he said it was a flesh wound, I was relieved, although there, that was not really true. I could not get up, and I could not, I could not move. And then a girl came from my right side and held my hand and I just squeezed the heck out of that girl's hand and she stayed with me the whole time until the ambulances came and loaded two of us into an ambulance. I was in an ambulance with John Cleary. John was shot through the lungs, apparently, and he was in terrible agony. It was a very, very difficult ride to ambulance, we, we both were very uncomfortable, I thought I was going to die. I said, as I said, you know, all the Catholic training that I had, I said a good act of contrition, asking God to forgive me for my sins. And, and I kind of thought, you know, I am only 18 I really have not committed, done too many things wrong. But just in case. Just in case, I said that prayer and got into the ambulance, got over to the hospital. And amazingly, I was semi-conscious this whole time. Even seeing high school classmates come up to the ambulance window and give me that high wave. But when I got to the hospital, the last thing, I remember, and it is comical. I love my mom and she was very strict with eight kids, you got to be strict. I got to the hospital, they said we were going to have to cut off your clothes. And I remember thinking to myself, my very last thought was, Mom was not going to like that. And then I went into, went into surgery for six hours and got several pints of blood. Went the intensive care for, unit for a week or so, the first couple of days I was 50/50 live or die I got the last rites night. Some of my friends from high school came and visited me I do not know somehow, they found me and I do not remember that but in our 50th reunion last in 2020, became an, retold me the story and it was it was very moving to hear from these seventy-year-old people about what moved them most of them were 18 and it was very touching. And I was in the hospital with Dean and John Cleary, we were all tall, I was the shortest one at 6'3" so our feet stuck out of the ends of the ICU beds. And we got to [inaudible] and friends forever. Then after a three weeks and a day, I got out of the hospital and went back to my parents’ home in Maslen and shortly thereafter read an article in the newspaper, the local Maslen evening independent which said that it had a story about the Kent State shootings and I thought well this this should be interesting so I read it and it said that students attacked guardsmen with bricks and bottles and overturned cars. And none of that was true. Not a word of that was true. And I thought, oh my god, you know my parents’ friends my neighbors here in Maslin. They think that is what is real? So-so for me the takeaway was you know, you cannot believe the media or the government. When it suits them, they are going to lie? So, I-I recovered at home, I did not really have too many long-lasting injuries although I do have to say that I have had my right hip replaced three times which is right near the in the entry wound of that 30-caliber rifle bullet. There has been no actual medical connection made between it but I suspected that it is connected. And then the story goes on, trying to get, trying to get accountability with Arthur Krause and the parents of those four kids dead. We tried to get accountability. And, and, and that was a tough climb because the first, the first legal gathering was the Portage County grand jury which indicted 25 students and professors and no guardsmen. In fact, I was, I was shot twice, and then I was arrested. I was indicted for fourth degree riot by the Portage County grand jury and later the charges were dropped for lack of evidence, but it gave me an understanding of what some people in America experience where they were victims of what was called Law Enforcement crime, and then they were charged with the crime themselves. So, I have a deep sympathy for, you know, for Breonna Taylor and- SM: 49:30 Yeah. Yes. JL: 51:09 -Michael Brown, you know, George Floyd, because to me, this is this is a story I have had a deep insight into. SM: 51:19 When, I want to mention the bond, did you know any of the people that were wounded with you or killed before this this murder? JL: 51:34 I did not, I did not know anyone. The only person I had a passing acquaintance with-with was Alison Krauss. Because she was the girlfriend of my mailbox partner in my dorm. Barry Levine, our-our names were alphabetical [audio cuts] box at the dorm. And so, I would see Allison and Barry almost every day and-and what I will say about Allison is she was attractive in every way. Vivacious, and smart and beautiful and involved and just really, really struck me as a beautiful person. But I did not know any others until we got together for different legal purposes years later. SM: 52:24 Can you describe the, I guess the one thing, I have learned something from this interview? I know you were wounded. I did not know the seriousness of your wounds. As you go over the years, Joe, have you, have you had any flashbacks, do you had on that day? How has your mental and physical health been over the years? JL: 52:49 You know, I do not really have flashbacks, like nightmares. I and I do not know, I have spoken with ant-war vets over the years a number of times. And a couple of times they pointed at me and said "PTSD!" because they've seen me cry when I talk about the incident. And-and of course I have I have huge reservoirs of emotion for the sorrow that I feel. Now that I am a parent and a grandparent for those families who lost, Allison and Jeff, Sandy and Bill that day, for no good reason. They did not do anything wrong. And-and so that that, to me is heartbreaking. But I do have, you know, very close bonds with the other families, the other eight guys who were wounded- well there was only, I think six of us left now but yeah, so I do not. As far as physical results, I think that my problems with my right hip may be related to my injuries there. And mentally, like I said, like, I do not believe the government or the media. SM: 54:09 Right. JL: 54:10 But I am not alone in that respect. I know. SM: 54:14 When you, I want to flash back now. Now, obviously you went back to school, when did you go back to school to continue your education and when did you graduate? JL: 54:28 I went back to school, and I think it was the winter of (19)71. But I never finished, I left. I was I was trying to go to school full time and work full time. I was under, under indictment waiting for trial. And I was self-medicating. And so, it was not a good, was not a good mix. It was not successful for me I-I managed to stay in school and work until the summer of (19)72. And so that was really just like a couple quarters more. And then I-I moved from Kent to Oregon where I am now. SM: 55:17 Did you realize, you probably did the-the massive coverage of this of the murders that took place the following week, you and I- we were talking about the impact it has had on the people who were there, the students that were alive at Kent at that time, the families and so forth. Are you aware of the impact that this event had on college students and people all over the country like yours truly? The tragedy-? JL: 55:48 Yes-yes, yes. The largest student strike in American history. And, and I know, and I know that it was a formidable time, I mean, you know, it to me, to me, of course, is much more personal. But frequently in historical movies or, or stories, or even just, you know, magazine articles, the Kent State shooting comes up as a pivotal reflection of the time and the desperation and just the, the peak of resistance to the war. SM: 56:23 A lot of people that have written, that have written about this event, and then actually in books, too, that said that, when the tragedies at Kent State and Jackson State hit, that, then the War at Vietnam now came home to Middle America. JL: 56:41 Right. SM: 56:42 And that the war was going to end because of it. The a, and because there was still at that time, a lot of people that supported the war. And Nixon always had his group that, you know that, you know that they were supporting him. But it is what happened at Kent State, it just had a tremendous impact way beyond, it changed careers. And one of the things I had had to talk with Alan about because he came, and I had real good long conversations with him. And he knew I went into higher education because of the tragedy. I wanted to do my small part, as a college administrator to make sure this never happened again on a university campus. And I am saying this now for Alan, Alan. All the years that he talked when he came to West Chester University to speak, one of his ultimate goals was to get truth and justice for those who, you know, suffered because of this, but also to make sure this kind of an event never again, ever happens on a university campus. A free speech, protest, where students died expressing their free speech. So, it was- JL: 56:59 Yeah-yeah. SM: 58:00 -it is there is so-so much here. And, and, of course, you know, what Alan did all throughout the years to make sure that we never forget it as well. When you as a, as a young person, I want to question some of the things that you have already brought up because of what happened at Kent State, the qualities of distrust toward government, distrust toward the system, distrust toward leaders. There was a slogan back in the (19)60s that, that the boomers that were involved in activist in the antiwar movement, and the impact that it had on them was that they did not trust leaders. And-and, and we were talking all leaders. University presidents, politicians, ministers, rabbis, anyone in a position of leadership could not be trusted. Did that affect you that way? JL: 59:01 You know, to me, that is an extreme point of view, and I try to be rational. And so to me, that would be like, I call it jumping to confusions and I, I have respect for leadership, but I have to understand that they are, they are working for the common good and not for personal, you know, financial or power dictates that-that just, they are trying to keep maintain their power, their influence, and, and so I do not, I would not say that I take that kind of a broad brush with all leadership. I would, I would evaluate, I would evaluate the things that a leader does and says and judged by their actions. It is more than their words. But the blanket statement that I made is true. I distrust media and government. The government lied to us about Vietnam and the media lies to us constantly about different things. But I would not say that I challenged all leadership, I was distrustful. And I always looked for like, what is the reason someone would want us to believe this way, I was questioning, I was questioning but I was not completely full of distrust for all leaders. I would not say. SM: 1:00:25 This is important question, Joe, that I want to ask, what are the lessons of Kent State for not only, for future generations of college students? What is the lesson you want them to know? Not only from college students, that are, young people that are alive today that are yet born, because through research and scholarship at our center, we are hoping that we will find people who were going to study the (19)60s and early (19)70s, get their PhD in this area and teach the (19)60s the way it should be taught, from all points of view, conservative liberal and everything in between. What are what do you feel were the lessons of Kent State that you want to pass on to future generations? JL: 1:01:13 I just think that there is, there is hope when-when people recognize their common ground. And I still believe in nonviolent resistance. I believe in direct action using nonviolent methods. Although it is a hard, hard slog, sometimes you get where you are going. I do not believe you can fight violence with violence, I think we need to be, we need to be peaceful and rational and, and respectful of each other, even especially those who disagree with. And it is hard. That is a, that is a hard, hard assignment. But that is what I tried to do. And as far as the overall lessons from Kent State, I-I hope that we have learned that we have to allow for dissent. We should not be attacking people who do not agree with government policies, we should be, you know, I actually, you know, remember the Nixon administration was all talking about law and order. Where most of those people were convicted felons, in the Nixon administration, and protesters at Kent State did not, you know, as far as I know, did not break any laws. I mean, we were peacefully protesting we, we did not have weapons, we did not assault people, we did not damage property that day. And so, to me, we need to have room in our, in our society, for disagreement, for peaceful disagreement. And not to quickly jump to conclusions. Like I know, I have some people I know in northwestern Oregon, who, who assume that since you know, you are kind of a lefty liberal that that you should be destroyed. SM: 1:03:05 Right. JL: 1:03:05 I think there should be real tolerance for-for both of us to exist in the same in the same geographic location with opposing points of view. SM: 1:03:15 It is amazing. Yeah, that is what you said is one of the issues in America today. JL: 1:03:20 Yeah. SM: 1:03:22 You know, not listening to other points of view. I mean, it is my way or the highway, it very good observations. I want to be clear on this. Who were the villains of Kent State and who were the heroes? JL: 1:03:39 I am not sure about the heroes. I know. The villains are Nixon and Rhodes. The heroes are the heroes are Glenn Frank, who begged students after the shooting to not confront guardsmen a second time because the guards said they would shoot again, if needed. The heroes are Glenn Frank who saved lives by doing that that day. And those-those people who are brave enough to speak the truth about Kent State, Alan Canfora and Dean Kahler, they have done enormous work by staying in the area whereas I, in (19)72, man I was gone, I am out of there. But they stayed and confronted it. And I mean, Dean, it is escapable, it is a conversation he could not avoid having. And so, they are the heroes for continuing to tell the truth about what happened that day and, and trying to avoid a recurrence of that and-and I think anyone who stands up to, stands up for the rule of law. I mean, because Nixon said he was the law and order people but really Law and Order would not have allowed the shootings at Kent State to happen in our civil trial they talked about the even the Army's rules of engagement do not allow people to turn on fire on-on agitators or protesters. The designation as the commander will point out specific targets for individual snipers to shoot at, it is not turn and fire when you when you feel like and, and the fact that the guardsmen all said they were afraid for their lives after being sequestered for 30 days is to me very questionable. SM: 1:04:19 Right. Beyond Kent State, which is the obvious answer to this question, but is there another specific watershed event that was really important in your life? Either an event or happening or a death? JL: 1:05:40 Yeah, there have been. My first wife was a paralegal assistant with the Kent State Trial, and I fell in love with her when I first saw her, she died of cancer in (19)91, after we were married 15 years together. But my first, my first inclination to, to answer is, when I was eight, my little brother, who was hydrocephalic, who had water on the brain, died when he was five. And the moment of, and my grandma was babysitting me because my mom and dad and nur- and aunt who was a nurse, said they were taking Peter to the doctor. And so, grandma was babysitting me that night, and I stayed up later than I was ever allowed too before. But at a certain point, a certain moment in time, I burst into tears. And I realized that that was the moment my brother died. And so, to me, the most important lesson in life I have ever learned is that we are all connected. We are all brothers connected in life through a way that we do not understand. And-and so this is carried with me from that day on. And it is, it is hard, not too hard not to respect people who you are related to. And so, I tried to, I tried to live my life with that lesson in mind. Lately, lately, political events, the-the Standing Rock protest was very important, I think, for people to stop the prostitution of our land for the benefit of profiteers. And the protection of our drinking water, I have, my career, my working career, I am retired now as of (20)13. But in my adult life, I have spent 20 years from (19)80 to (20)00, as a union president and shop steward for our public works employee’s union for the city where I live. And then from (20)00 to (20)16, I spent four, four terms on the local school board- SM: 1:07:57 Oh. JL: 1:07:58 -administering, administering to the school districts needs from kind of a management point of view. So, to me, working people are where it is at, they are the people who make our country strong and good. And we need to respect them and give them, acknowledge the work that they do and help them however we can to be successful and happy. SM: 1:08:19 That is really great, Joe, because that is giving back. It is giving back- JL: 1:08:26 Well, when I got here to Northwestern Oregon, I was damaged, I was very damaged goods. And so, the people here and they, that natural beauty, helped me to recover. And so, I feel like I owe it to my community to give back and that is, that is exactly my intention is I love it here. And I want the folks to know that I will do what I can to make it a better place. SM: 1:08:49 It is amazing, because that is what Alan did all his life was kind of is giving back- JL: 1:08:53 Most of the guys- SM: 1:08:54 Yeah, and Dean is all about that. JL: 1:08:58 Most of the guys are really nice guys, you know that? SM: 1:09:01 Yes. JL: 1:09:01 I sometimes wonder how can the, how can shooters find nine nicer guys? I mean, it is I guess there is something humbling about being shot too being, but-but yeah, I am really I am really proud to have acquaintance of mine, I call them my blood brothers. And we, we are connected in a way no one else really wants to be or can be. And so, for me that recovery, the reunions are bittersweet. They are horribly sad and-and wonderfully warm and, and welcoming because when I get together with these folks, and our supporters, our families and friends, it is just an amazing time. SM: 1:09:50 Well, I know at one of the Kent State remembrances a few years back, you and another person who passed away were together. JL: 1:09:59 Oh, Jim Russel. SM: 1:09:59 Yeah Jim Russell and I am, I do not know if you remember, I took your pictures and I gave the pictures to I think Alan because they were real good close up shots. You were sitting at a panel in the auditorium there and they came out really great. And so, and I remember you were very close to him, and then the tragedy that he passed away. JL: 1:10:20 Yeah, I convinced him to move to Oregon after our civil trial. He, he kept me sane during the civil trial, because he was a genius. He was, he had multifarious interests. And he was he was actually deeply involved in all of them. Um, and I was, I had moved to the forested hills outside of our little town in (19)72. So, in the (19)75 trial, when we were all going back to Cleveland for 14 weeks in the summer, for uh, four days a week of trial. Um, I was just out of my element as the press cameras and interviewers would follow us around the street. I was really out of my element coming from the woods, where I had been when Jim-Jim just talked to me. And he talked and he talked and he talked because he [laughs], he had all these interests. And he kept me from-from freaking out, really. And so, I feel like he saved my, saved my uh, sanity. And uh, so we became close. And then he- I invited him to move to Oregon when I came back home. And uh, after 25 years went by the local Oregon, Oregonian had an article about us, the 25th, you know, anniversary of the Kent State shootings. And after that, two professors and teachers started inviting us to come to their classes. And we were, we were very reluctant activists, Jim, especially, very reluctant. But what we found was that by telling the truth of our story, that- it kind of was cathartic, that it lightened the load on our hearts. Although I do feel it was obvious from observation that it was causing some sorrow for the students who heard us talk about the truth about Kent State. And so, we bonded that way for years. We did that at colleges and high schools around Oregon until (20)07 when Jim had a heart attack, and as he would have, as he would have designed it, had a heart attack and died in his wife's arms. At his home in Rainier, Oregon. It was a heart heartbreaking [inaudible], for me to think about him being gone, we- we had, an extremely close relationship. In many ways we were so different that we were like, uh, two poles of a magnet. And it just drew us together, we could tell the Kent State story because we had each been at different places at different times, in a way that was so thorough, and uh, we were just like, kind of walk into each other's uh, monologues smoothlessly, smoothly. And uh, and it was it was just a it was a very powerful, very powerful sort of when we told it together. SM: 1:13:21 Well, he is, he is another one of those, of the nine. One of the good guys and why, [crosstalk]. I had- Oh man, he, was also, worked for the city- [laughs] I-I want to mention the Vietnam Memorial, you know, the whole thing happened in 1982. When Vietnam veterans came back, they were treated pretty poorly and, [crosstalk] and really poorly. No, not by me either. But, then in 1982, the wall opened and everything's changed. Now the question I really want to ask you, Jan Scruggs wrote that historic book, "The Healing of a Nation." And of course, he, he wanted to make the Vietnam Memorial, a nonpolitical entity, as a remembrance for the 58 plus 1000 who died, and are, certainly all Vietnam veterans who have served and their families. The question I want to ask you is, the Vietnam Memorial has done a great job in terms of healing amongst the veterans themselves and their families and now many, men, have seems like more Vietnam veterans are dying faster than even the World War Two veterans died from post-traumatic stress disorder but certainly Agent Orange and cancer and everything. I remember asking this to three United States senators. I asked this to Senator Eugene McCarthy, I asked this to George McGovern, and I asked this to Gaylord Nelson and it was Gaylord Nelson's response, which was the best one. But the question is, is it possible to heal, as a nation, from a war that tore us so much apart? [silence] Are you still there? JL: 1:13:30 He was an engineer, he was, he was into the detail of [chuckles] of the radius of curbs and shit like [laughter], are you kidding me? I mean, I think, he, he annoyed the hell out of me and I think I have amused the hell out of him so, [inaudible]. So, it was the perfect relationship. SM: 1:13:31 Yep. JL: 1:13:49 You are breaking up, Steven. Yeah, I-I kind of missed the first part. SM: 1:15:13 Is it, is it possible to heal, have-have we healed, as a nation from the Vietnam War? JL: 1:15:38 Oh, good question. Um, [coughs] that is a good question. I-I do not know. I-I do not know would say we have made attempts to heal, I-I, I-I do think of one thing that we have not talked about, that is a very important element to response to the war in Vietnam was the Veterans for Peace, the antiwar, that is actually where leaders, even more so than the student antiwar groups, in opposing the war in Vietnam. And I think without them, we would not have gotten to the memorial into the place where we are now. [crosstalk] But, I-I think there is, I think there is still existing divisions that go back to that time. And I am not so sure that they are only about the war, they may also be about the philosophy of governance, the approach to authority, the relationship that men have with their fathers [laughs]. SM: 1:16:37 Right. JL: 1:16:38 You know, I-I think we should have learned to be more forgiving and more compassionate, but I am not sure that all of us have. [crosstalk] The other thing I would add, as you talk about the fifty-eight thousand, lives that were sacrificed, we also have to remember the 3 million- SM: 1:16:57 You are right. JL: 1:16:58 -Asians who, SM: 1:16:58 Yes. Mhm. Right. Yeah, I-. Mhm. Yes, you are darn right [crosstalk]. Yes. Yes. Because, when you go down to the Vietnam Memorial, and um, you know, it is not only seeing the faces of those who-who are no longer with us who served their nation, but it is also the 3 million who died, the Vietnamese themselves. I-I know that from working in a university and advising the Asian American organization, of which most of them were Vietnamese students, whose parents were both people and survived, on the boats to go to certain islands. And then of course, they ended up meeting, they fell in love. And a lot of the Vietnamese have done very well in this nation. And, but a lot of them are from the boat people that survived that war, just survived. And, I know President Bush in 1989, you may remember this, said "The Vietnam syndrome is over." Remember when he said that? And uh, and-and I said, he has, he has got to be kidding me. Because it kind of gets into what they call, "The culture wars." And the culture wars from the (19)60s are still happening right now in the year 2021. JL: 1:16:59 -who died. Well, you know, I belong to a, an internet, internet, message group that is called, "Full Disclosure." And it was, it was, it was started a couple years ago, maybe more than a couple of years ago, to correct the historical revisionism: that was trying to make it sound like, Vietnam was a glorious war. And, these are mostly veterans, their outspoken antiwar veterans, who, share emails, you know, not every day, but frequently, with their comments about the way things are going now. And-and some of them I-I have met, a great group of antiwar vets in the Portland area similar so my best friends who I hear from pretty often and, and they are still active in doing what they did and opposing war and telling the truth of war to, to people who will listen, students and the public whenever they can. And we went on some speaking tours with them, Russell and I and, and it was very moving. It was very moving. One of this, one of these friends is a, was a Vietnam era medic, a combat medic, and-and he-he has a vague resemblance to Dana Carvey, and [crosstalk] his speech is so honest that he will have you laughing, and then crying within 20 minutes of telling his story about, uh- SM: 1:19:46 Wow. JL: 1:19:46 -about-about his experiences and those of the-the guys the young men around him, who you know, who were wounded and dying and some of them dead and, it has just been uh, hm. I-I am very grateful for their friendship, let me say that. I-I have met some guys whose-whose friendship means a great deal to me because they support, they support, our Kent State experience and a motivation we had that time. So, it means a lot to me. SM: 1:20:20 Oh really? Wow. Mhm. The, we only got a couple more questions here. One of them is, as you as we were in, especially the front edge boomers when they were in junior high school, there were some major events that happened. And I would like to know your thoughts on what happened in, on November 22nd of (19)63, where were you when JFK was killed? JL: 1:20:41 I was in seventh grade, I was seventh grade, in Mrs. Lakely's class and our [inaudible] Ohio at St. Francis De Sales. School. And of course, since it was a Catholic school, and this was our first Catholic president, everybody was heartbroken. It was, it was just a tragic, tragic event. And of course, in (19)68, then we lost RFK and Martin Luther King. And it seemed like we had entered a period of history where assassination was going to be the rule rather than the exception. And that was damn frightening, I think for us. SM: 1:21:08 Yes-yes. Right. And even Malcolm X got killed in (19)65. JL: 1:21:21 Yeah-yeah. SM: 1:21:21 Yeah-yeah. Oh, this is really well addressed in Tom Grace's books. He calls it, "The Long Sixties." And-and I think there is a connection between the, late (19)50s, labor movement and the early (19)70s, repression, government repression that kind of tamped down the-the, mobilization of-of antigovernment activity. So, I guess, I would guess, late, late (19)50s and early (19)70s kind of really defined something like the (19)60s. But, um, yeah, I-I do not know I-I am not a very well, I am not a very learned person I have going on as I have learned through life, but not through, formal education. So, I-I do not really know. You know, and, and, of course, of course, we all know that Gandhi, was murdered as well, way before, but he was a role model for Dr. King. It is amazing that, you know, you met-, you mentioned about why did the nine might in the four, who were killed, cannot stay in the nine who are wounded. Why did it happen to good people like this? Well, you know, same thing you can say for politicians who a lot of people believe we are doing good deeds for others, and then others did not like them. So, let us eliminate them. So, it is kind of, that is part of the experience of, I think of the boomer generation-generation as well. I got two more questions. This question is when do you think the (19)60s began? And when do you think it ended? If it did? You know, that the personalities of the, when you look at the, your life, from when you were young and now older, as a boomer, who were the personalities that you just simply admired? And, and then the personalities that you did not admire? JL: 1:23:32 Well, I loved my grandma. My grandma was from Slovakia. She always stood up straight. She always spoke clearly. She was a very well informed, she was a democratic precinct woman and would be at a voting ballot place every, every election. She was kind and sweet. And I know she, she was very quiet about those things that troubled her. And as far as someone to [silence] look up to, I think it would be Nixon. People with ulterior motives who would lie out the side of their mouth to get what they wanted. That was not really legitimate. You know, he-he got into politics by answering a one ad by some California businessman who wanted to voice for them in the, in the legislature in California. So, he was like a prostitute from the beginning, I think. Jagger Hoover, you know, he was a brutal, brutal, and evil person. And the more we know about him, the less I like him. He, he caused suffering and death. You know, um, I had I had the opportunity at one of the Kent State commemoration is to meet Bobby Seale, who, who I admire I mean, he was at the forefront of the Black Panther Party when, they rose up and challenged the government with the rifles on the steps of the courthouse in Sacramento, which is brilliant and also fearful, [laughs] fearful tactic. But, you know, he was not perfect, he-he did have some, he did have some shortcomings, but he was faced with an unbelievable situation that Black Panthers and that time and, and I guess I also looked up to people who I met like Reverend John Adams, he was a minister for the board of Church and Society, the United Methodist Church, he was like a chaplain for us during our Kent State Civil Trial, as well as a, the only white man to cross the lines in (19)75, between the FBI and the occupants' occupiers at Wounded Knee. So, to me, he is like a chaplain for, for causes that were important. I do not know. I am happy to have the friends I have, who support me and who I support, and, I feel very lucky to be where I am. SM: 1:26:09 And how important was the music of the (19)60s and early (19)70s to you? JL: 1:26:15 Oh critical, oh critical. SM: 1:26:17 -during, during everything? JL: 1:26:18 -It was life, music of the music then, and the lyrics. I mean, they are they define, to a large extent they define, define those moments more than anything else. SM: 1:26:33 Yeah, they were they were something that is for sure. And-and are there any? Uh, I only got-finishing this up. Um, the movies, there have been many movies that have come out trying to describe the (19)60s or the Vietnam War. What are the movies that you really, think are good ones to watch? If you want to try to understand the era when the Boomers were young? JL: 1:27:02 I do not know. My friend, my combat veteran friend, says that, uh, "Platoon," was the most realistic one that he thought for being in combat. I do not know. I do not know if there is movies, if a movie has-has captured, has captured the spirit yet. I-um, yeah, I am not. I do not have a really great memory anyway. So, I do not know. I cannot answer that. SM: 1:27:32 I will end with this. You know, when-when I asked that question about when do the (19)60s end, everybody has their own kind of answers. But to me when (19)73 hit, I do not know, you probably remember this point, it probably happened at Kent State as well. It is when the people were stripping. Remember that started happening again. They were running all over the campus nude and all that other stuff. I-I, I [crosstalk] was at Ohio, I was in my first job at Ohio University. And I got a call from Jones graduate tower on the Ohio State campus where I lived when I was a graduate student. And they said, Steve, you got to come back to campus, why? The (19)60s are over. I said, "What?" Just come back to the campus for Friday night and I will explain. I drove back to Jones tower. I read the paper that that that people in different residence halls are going to strip off and run across campus. They were feeling free. [laughs] And they did not care about anything political. And, uh, so I go behind the Ohio State Law Library and go and behold, they were doing the Rockettes [laughs]. Some-some women are coming out doing Rockettes things nude and then the guts the guys were coming out wherever they were. And then, then all of a sudden, people were taking their clothes off and run across campus. And then they said, come the next day, because they were going to run down High Street. And so, it was a weekend. So, I came to High Street sat at the corner of Mercian auditorium [laughs]. And here they come [laughs]. JL: 1:29:03 Wow. SM: 1:29:04 And I and I said, and I said to myself, "This, is this the end of the (19)60s?" [laughs] "Does this mean? [crosstalk] that fun, has now returned to the college campus?" [crosstalk] So I-I do not you know, I have always, I have mentioned that I remember I mentioned that to Rodney Davis and he laughed. And uh, when he said there was some sense of truce there because it was kind of people were going into communes at that time. They were, kind of, it was, -a it was a long story. I want to, and I want to thank you very much for spending this time with me. Yeah, I have learned a lot. JL: 1:29:38 Sure. SM: 1:29:38 -for you and, uh, and my admiration for you is always, higher, now it is even higher. You know, I, I will be there at the remembrance event this next year. I hope you are there because I am I am going to come back. I have to be there for Alan because I think they are going to do some things for him. But, are there any final thoughts, that you would like to mention that you feel, that you did not say? Anything in connection with your-? JL: 1:30:03 Oh, no. [laughs] Yeah, I do not know. [laughs] Sure. Well, you know, I have been to most of the commemorations I have missed a few. But usually someone will come up to me and they will say, and they will find, after they find out who I am and my connection, my experience, they will come up to me and they will say, "This is my first time back," and then they will start to cry. And so, what I often say to people is, you did not have to be shot, to be wounded at Kent State on May 4th (19)70. In fact, I think the whole country, the whole country had a wound that day. SM: 1:30:07 I agree. JL: 1:30:35 And I think we are all still trying to heal from it. SM: 1:30:41 That-That is, what a way to end the interview. Thank you very much, Joe. JL: 1:30:46 Thank you, Steven, for what you do. SM: 1:30:47 Thank you. And I will make sure that the university will send this, um this CD, it will be on your CD, it will be sent to you once they digitize it. For before it is finally approved. JL: 1:31:00 And, uh send me a link to look at the other interviews. SM: 1:31:03 I will do so. JL: 1:31:04 if there is a way you can do that alright, thanks. SM: 1:31:05 Yeah, I will do that- when I get [inaudible] I meant, um, I am-yep. Thank you very much. Be safe, stay healthy. And keep doing what you are doing. JL: 1:31:15 All right. You too, Stephen. Thank you. SM: 1:31:17 Have a great day. Bye now. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Joseph Lewis IIIF Item Metadata UUID 179c73b8-5e05-46c8-8899-9dccdf7ab99f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e2a0a93029c21a62a530072a87a36424.jpeg ca3e87efd198802a7e4e9431e015b868 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/04de1d3b64d7ee82f3f4d9e51d19d2a6.mp3 28e8c50c8c3455100a42e75df01c0e17 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 19 November 2021 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Bruce Johansen Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:54:15 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Dr. Bruce Johansen is a Professor of Communication and Native American Studies, the University of Nebraska at Omaha. He had authored 39 published books as of 2014. He writes frequently about environmental subjects. He also writes as a journalist in several national forums, including the Washington Post and The Progressive, with letters to the editor in The Atlantic, New York Times, National Geographic, Wall Street Journal, et al. He earned his Bachelor's degree from the University of Washington; a Master's degree from the University of Minnesota, and he has a Ph.D. from the University of Washington. Keywords Washington State; Nato; 1960s; Native Americans; American Indian Movement; John F Kenndy; 1950s; Wild West; Wounded Knee; Activism; Vietnam; Healing. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Bruce Johansen Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 2 December 2021 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:02 All right, we are all set. BC: 00:05 Okay. SM: 00:06 Thank you very much Dr. Johansen for agreeing to be interviewed for this, for the Center for the Study of (19)60s at Binghamton University. The first question I want to ask you is could you tell us a little bit about your growing up years, your early influences, your parents, where you went to high school, college, those early years before you became a professor? BC: 00:28 Okay. I was born in 1950 in San Diego by, was in the, Coast Guard, it was, you know they have a, Coast Guard bases you know, all over the place. So, I grew up, you know, moving you know over about half-half the world you know, they have a Coast Guard in the Philippines, they have it in you know, in [inaudible] up in Canada, in Puerto Rico, so they even have all these here in Omaha, but you know there is not any coast here, but they have one. You know, so, I grew up until age 18, you know, traveling, you know, with my family at age 18, okay I mean between ages 15 and 18 which was 1965 to (19)68, I was at high, high school in Fort Angeles, you know in Washington State. And there is a Coast Guard base there too, and the, the time change to you know to, apply for college and I, favorite the- you know, the view of Washington. My parents had been transferred to San Diego again, and they invited me to come but I was, I mean I was itching to get out of that, you know there else. And so, I went over to Seattle and got a scholarship which we, they hired me to go to school there, so I did [chuckles]. [inaudible] provide scholarships so then I was in the, you know in the, Seattle in school when you know the whole anti-war movement blew up. And in 1971, I was the editor of the, "The Daily," which is this student paper, so I mean I spent all kinds of time covering this, you know, and it is on the record if you go back far enough to do that. I started in (19)69, I became the editor in (19)71, and I graduated with my BA in (19)72, and after that I went over to Seattle two times and this takes us up to about, let us see, (19)74 and five. I took ten months in Minnesota, and then came back to Seattle, and I went back to the times, I mean I was overeducated for my job so I ended up getting a PhD at this, you know, famous school and graduated 1971. My thesis and dissertation was on the ways in which the {inaudible] help to fight our government, in you know in the (19)30s, (19)40s, (19)50s, (19)60s and onward. And that blew up a debate all over the country which, it did not actually start up till the (19)80s, and it got bigger you know after that but the- there was all kinds of throwback and there were other people who were you know, interested too. Then I put it, I mean after a long search for a publisher in (19)82, the dissertation came out as a book. [inaudible] awaited it starts to spread, and I am being slimed by people such as you know, [inaudible] and others you know, you have not listened till you been slimed with [inaudible]. And in some of his books too, he hated, of course. So, this takes us up to about 1982, you know, I am out of college, I have my PhD and I started to become active in, in Indian fishing rights, you know also in the early (19)70s, you know, things were heating up in the northwest. Most people outside that area do not have a good idea of why this, you know, battle over salmon was a such big item in that area. But I started out, I was still at the times (19)72-(19)76, and I covered this, the fishing rights, and got to know some of the people behind it. So, jumping ahead to (19)82 again, my book is out, you know, I am a starving artist, you know, books, I mean, even books that have an audience, I mean, often do not support you so, and I did you know, side gigs, I mean, I wrote articles. [inaudible] I could not feel as if I could go back to the times before my [inaudible] job there, and the [inaudible] had been hiring a lot of its own graduates because everyone wanted to stay there. So, when I graduated there, just before that, the dean of arts and sciences, sciences issued an edict or an order that said that the school of communications, which I was in could not hire any more of its own graduates. So, I was you know, when I was looking for an academic job, I went out on-on the road, and I ended up in 1982 in Omaha and I worked here, and I was pretty tired. I think it was 2018 so that, you know, that puts me probably at over 37 years as an academic in Omaha you know and, and I am still to receive books and articles- SM: 15:16 Right. BC: 15:18 -from here so you know it has added up to 53 books- SM: 15:29 Wow. BC: 15:29 -and hundreds of other things you know if you Google me you will, you will get an idea of what is out there. SM: 15:44 Yeah you, you are quite a scholar, I mean you wrote the Encyclopedia of Native Americans and some of the other books are just unbelievable. And my question is, how, I know that you are talking about the issue with salmon and so forth, River Race and so forth? But how did you get an interest in Native American issues? BC: 16:14 Back in about 1970, I read a book by Keith Brown called [inaudible] and that is what started it, and also when my PhD, you the time came to start a PhD dissertation I had just I had several friends who are you know urging me to do the Iroquois connection with, with Benjamin Franklin and others, and the people on my PhD several, one of them did not, had never heard of the idea. And they did not take it to be you know, part of history or part of what could be in the historic scholarly record. So, I had to start pulling evidence and I pulled out accounts from the past and quotes from the papers, and other things. And just feeding them to the people on my committee and after a while they do it, that opened the first door and then I had to do it, and as you can see from looking at, at my stuff prior, I am- mean a writer. And as a journalist earlier, I mean, I did write fast and accurately, I am quick so, and I, you know, I mean people freeze up but I freeze up when I talk, and as a kid, about the age of eight I started to stutter. And for a while I was real, I am unhappy because I did not think I had any outlets. You know, I mean, I just be taken as a stupid kid. So, then I started work on it since about the age of nine. And I am now 71, and as sit here at my keyboard, I mean, I am working on some books and chapters today. So, I mean it, it has not stopped. SM: 20:56 What was, what was the name of that first book that came from your dissertation? BC: 21:04 That was "Forgotten Founders," and it was my, actually, it was my second book. SM: 21:16 Okay. BC: 21:17 The first one was, was called "The Iroquois," which was about how, you know, Indian issues were still alive. So, I mean, it brings things from the past up to date. You know, and so that was the first one, second one was "Forgotten Founders," which has gone on to have a real, you know, interesting, you know, impact all over the world. People, you know, hear this idea, and they either go, that is fascinating, or that is crap [chuckles]. SM: 22:22 And that is the one, is that the one that Rush Limbaugh criticizes you for? BC: 22:27 Yeah, yeah. SM: 22:31 What did he say about your book? BC: 22:33 Well, he just said it was false, and that there could not possibly be a connection here. I mean, after all, you know, the founders were the founders, and the Indians were the Indians. And that is all there was. And he obviously had not read it. And that was [inaudible], you know, when after it, I mean, they paid attention. So, I had a real fun time taking them on and going into their publications and their audiences, and countering them. I mean, I turned them into, guess the word would be foils for my argument. And it, it was spread it out. It had an effect, which was opposite of what they wanted. You know, so it was, I mean, I had a really good time going after them and going into publications, which I could not get into, on my own. But since there was a debate here, I was able to worm my way into scholarly journals in history, and anthropology, and others. The idea has a really interesting fact in several academic fields if you look at it, there is obviously there is history, there is anthropology, there is [inaudible], there is law, you know and-and others you know, so it is spread like that. Also, when I am getting up with audience in several academic fields and the public, and also a lot of people in other countries are interested in American history in a way and I decided to teach audit in India which was fascinating, in Poland- SM: 26:45 Wow. BC: 26:46 -[inaudible]. SM: 26:49 What was the, what was the basic, what was the basic argument in the book that upset people like Limbaugh? What was, what was your basic premise in the book? BC: 27:02 Well that there was an effect of what was, first of all, you understand that Franklin was on the way to do the Iroquois guardian and let us see, in let us say (19)50 or so, you know, he was an on [inaudible] and so, he observed how they operate, you know there is, just the culture you know, who does what, and he had a, he wrote, you know, CDs of [inaudible], you know which, which were you know, well-read small books at the time, you know, they had an audience and he published them I mean, he had a press too. So, he, at an audience and he described you know, how they operate their councils you know, their law, and gave people an idea that the, you know, Iroquois and other Indian nations had a, they were democracies, you know they, they operated in in counsels. So, Franklin takes this idea back home and puts it in his little books, and they, they spread out, you know, (19)50, (19)54, (19)50, (19)50-(19)60s and a bit after that, and this plants some seeds and some of the other founders pick it up, but he is the main one. You know, Franklin who loved going into other cultures and observing them, and writing about it. And towards the end, this real interesting [inaudible] he might have even used [inaudible] in his own time. So, he is fascinating, and almost every, you know, public library has published copies of his, his [inaudible]. You know, so it was really easy to praise what he was up to, you just had to work at it. Because there was so much of it. SM: 31:57 The, from this experience from one of your earlier books, how have, obviously in the academic community, your books have been praised. But for critics, when you look at your writings, say in the since we are talking about the (19)60s here, (19)60s and (19)70s, we can include the (19)50s too, what was your awareness meeting meter with respect to all the major issues of the (19)60s amongst them? How did you become interested again, in the Native American issues and indigenous peoples movements, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s? Did you feel that this period in American history was positive or negative with respect to how Native Americans were, you know, presented in, through books, through television, through movies, through writings, and obviously, your contribution has been so positive and so educational, but just your perception of what was going on in America in the (19)60s and (19)70s in respect to Native American issues? BC: 33:16 Well, I mean, I was, I got involved in these issues is about (19)70. And there were, you know, native people, you know, making their case, about you know, what ended up being forgotten. Founders early on, you know, I mean, it you can phrase it, you know, and they would tell me a bit about it and I was fascinated before about 1968, I was in high school in a rural area, you know, and I was not really old enough to take part in these things. But, I got to college in (19)68 just as the upheaval was flowing up, and the Vietnam war movement was, was also opening up all kinds of other issues, issues having to do with, you know, Latino rights, Black rights, Native rights, you know. fishing rights, all kinds of things, you know, gay rights, things that filtered into our culture after that. It was a galvanizing, anti-war movement, it was a galvanizing event that caused all these other, insurgence to have a platform and it also increased conflict, you know, around all, all these issues, I mean there was a great deal of upheaval in this I think. You know, my next book is on you know, black lives matter, and you see the same issues there that you did in the (19)60s and (19)70s, the whole you know, whole, American movement like Aim and other, other things. All kinds of, the idea was to get out from under a system which had made Native life very tough you know, to basically turn it over and start again you know, get fishing rights back, get land rights back, and then change, the damage which was, they worked on that too. And of course, that is still on, on-going you know the, you know the, the idea of you know, say, you know it is, it is an example but, Indian mascots, okay, which was getting started in the (19)60s. You know, the idea of this stereotypical Indian in shines and advertising it all, all over the place. In Omaha if you have ever seen it, we have the [inaudible] of Omaha trademark, and here in town where the company had its home office, they have a building that had their, their-their Indian, Indian on it, mutual on the top and then [inaudible] you know, Indian. Black lives matter as part of their efforts pointed that, Indian taken down. And if you come to Omaha today, you will see that it has been taken down in the field [inaudible] on it. So, you know, things have some things have changed. You know, and it is just an idea to make people think, and this has been going on. I mean, in the (19)70s, the American Indian Movement, you know, they, [inaudible] of this school I taught at, had an Indian mascot, you know, up until the, the early (19)70s. It was an ugly piece of work. I mean, it was dumb looking stick, bad art, bad idea. And so, Aim, you know, the Aim's head office was in Minneapolis, and they came down here and said, sack that thing, and they did, the early (19)70s, the, you know, the teens came up [inaudible] which, you know, is a big, fat animal that has an attitude you know. The Cleveland Indians- SM: 42:25 Right. BC: 42:25 -that was there, you know, the ugly, ugly mascot got there, too. And I am not sure if you know, they still have, have it. I mean, I have not checked it out. The Washington Redskins, they took that one off and they have not settled on anything else. So, I think the team is now called the team or something like this, the team from Washington. [chuckles] There certainly have been some changes and that is, that is for the positives for sure. Oh, yeah so, I write books as I look at them, have been part of the changes and you go out and you talk about these things, you educate people, and you get out the stereotypes, all kinds of stereotypes and, you know, history about Indians. And these are even carried on by people who have good educations, you know, but I got in there with the scholars and debated the stereotypes, which was an interesting turn of events. The idea at the basis of all of this, was the idea of the frontier, you know, basically said our ancestors came here over the ocean and established for 13 states on the eastern seaboard and expanded out west. And you can see, if you go to a place like, Omaha, the ages of the buildings that go up as you get further from the-the old party town. Omaha was started in the 1850s, you can get the whole idea that was always taught is that so, whites, you know, the Anglos, the people who came over the ocean you know, I mean my, my grandparents are from Norway, that the frontier will move from east to west and I was arguing that it was not that simple. You know, there was a movement of course, east to west, but then there was also feedback, which came from west to east, you know, when we start to learn from the Indians and it shapes our culture, so we have, you know, to some degree now, a hybrid culture, and you can see that in our own language, in some words that we use that people in England could not recognize. The names of our states, you know, half of them, you know Omaha is an Indian name. Nebraska is an Indian name; half the states have Indian names. And this is just an idea of the feedback, I mean the idea that we just rolled over them is too simple. You know, there was feedback and part of that feedback were things like Franklin, going out in the 1840s and 1850s, and building the case himself that that was feedback, in fact, his being part of it. Now, he understood that, and it is really interesting to read his papers because he, he understood things which have since been lost. I mean, I have, I found it fascinating. And if there was one person in the past that I could go back, just one, the one I would pick would be him, fascinating person. SM: 49:11 Well, his grave is in Philadelphia as you know, yeah, and if you have ever been to Philadelphia, a lot of people are still throwing change on his stone, on that corner. Yeah, he is a, he is an icon in Philadelphia. And I want your thoughts on this because you and I are about same age. And even though you started college in 1968, which is the year the American Indian Movement began. If I want to go back to post WWII, I want to go between that 1946 to 1960 when John Kennedy became president, you know, the young Boomer kids, which are born between (19)60, excuse me, (19)46 to (19)64 grew up with you know, black and white television, all those Westerns on T.V. During the 1950s, with a Kodachrome, Technicolor and so forth at the movie theaters, every Saturday, you could go watch Westerns on Saturday, you can actually see him during the week, but when we were in school, and so, and of course, the comics, and everything was the Wild Wild West. It was all about, you know, you had Hopalong Cassidy and you had, you know, you had the Lone Ranger, and Tonto you had, and of course, you had Bonanza, as you got into late (19)50s, early (19)60s, you got all those, all those television shows Rawhide, Wagon Train, you know, the list. And of course, the movies, the many, many, many movies in the (19)60s, they were all these top actors, okay, [inaudible]. And this all the question is this, Native Americans were in all the movies, but they were always at war, with the people, with the white men. And I, you know, as a little boy, I grew up, I had cowboys and Indians, you probably had them too. They were composted Indians that your parents gave you for Christmas, or for your birthday, they were in all the stores. And, of course, you had the happy outfits, you had Davy Crockett, and it, you had all this stuff. But it was always the Native Americans, or they were always at war with the white man. And, and I, and I never really, as a kid put two and two together. I do not think a lot of kids did. And then as you get into the (19)60s, as you start getting older, you find out the truth. That, you know, that, about how they were treated, and you will learn about how they lost their lands, and how the trees you know, they were lied too, they, you know, then you learn more than it is, it is more than just six or seven Native American groups, it is smaller groups that were part of a nation and nations all across the country. And then the, the cavalry going to war, you know, people going west, taking up the land, all the way to California and of course, then you have the situation, big, Little Big Horn. You are, you are a kid growing up and hearing all this as well, by the time you got to 1968. What were, what were your thoughts as a boomer kid, before you even went to college in (19)68 about how Native Americans were portrayed on T.V., in the movies, in comics, in books, everything? BC: 52:51 I think this goes back to, back to, from age two, I mean I was fooling with my parents and we were going into, I mean also, Village Theory has its own basis, you still go out and you see other cultures. And I recall from early on, you know, having an interest in other cultures, you know, and this was the (19)50s and I spent a great deal of time outside the country. So, I had something to compare it to, you know, and I was very, very interested in Puerto Rico, and both my friends were Puerto Rican and I was also for, for prolonged periods you know got exposed to Indian or others stereotypes, and when there was no Americans in the Philippines or Puerto Rico. And I just had different interests, you know, the cowboys and Indians, it did not appeal to me. So, I was from, from early on, I was looking at things from a different angle. And so, as I started to find out that there was actually something here, something interesting I mean, all these other cultures had interesting things to teach us now, the actual, the actual attachment to native peoples started to come up, up about 1970, you know, as I said, earlier, but I mean, I have been prepared by my early experiences to tell this, this standard line now, not everyone has that, you know, has that advantage, you know, being shown other cultures and other people, and having, kind of built in, I mean, I was receptive, you know, putting back to Canada, what this culture stuff is, it did not appeal to me. I mean, I did not like it. So, I am, I have felt better, you know, hanging out with, you know, Black people, Latinos, Native people, and then others, you know, that do not fit these-these groups and that is just genuine over time. I mean, I had a very interesting time in India, basically telling [inaudible] on topics that they had not heard about, but it opens their minds up and they will be receptive, so it is interesting to be on the, on the wave. And, I have kept, my, my basement here that is my library, my papers at all if anyone is interested after I go, it is all here. You know, and I have gotten more interested in people from around the world all the time and people resegregate. And I think that as [inaudible] it is our responsibility to be citizens of the world. But, of course there are all kinds of other people out there who do not think like that. I mean, things, some of them [crosstalk]. Oh, there is also a whole sector in our culture that, you know, have these symbols in their heads. They are the old thinking, I mean, it is still out there, the cowboys and Indians in the south. SM: 1:00:25 The- the, the image was always presented now as a little kid that the, the Indians were always the bad people. BC: 1:00:36 Yeah. SM: 1:00:37 And, the cowboys are always the good people, even when the Cowboys did real bad things toward the, I mean, you know, little boys and girls have a hard time putting two and two together at times. But boy, as times go on, you reflect. And that is the way I reflected it. And but then, in the 1960s, when the American movie came about (19)68, like all the other movements in the (19)60s, I mean, I was kind of happy that it was happening. Because when I look at the 20th century, with an emphasis on the 1950s through the (19)80s, where would we place the concerns of Native American citizens in the scheme of things? I do not remember in the 1950s any president talking about Native American issues. And, and but in the 1960s, I see, I see people like Senator Fred Harris and his wife, Madonna Harris, who were very involved in Native American issues from the get go. And I know Madonna is still very involved, have been her entire life. But, when you look at some of the some of the issues in the (19)60s and (19)70s that stand out to me, this is just me as a white man. But, a little boy growing up in the Syracuse area, that I saw a lot of Native Americans ads on T.V., I remember the one who, of the Native American who wanted to save the environment. And he got a tear in his eye, if you remember that ad. BC: 1:02:14 Yeah. SM: 1:02:14 Yep. Buffy Sainte Marie, who was the great singer of the (19)60s. I mean, she still is great today, what an icon in the Native American community. And her songs all talk about the Native American spirits, the Marlon Brando, the Native American female, going to the Academy Awards, when he was getting in, she was there and there was a scene. And of course, I already talked about all the T.V. shows and they were on T.V. and, and then, too, I would like you to talk about a couple of things here, because you are a scholar that can see the insight into these more than I can. I would like you to talk about Wounded Knee. How important Wounded Knee is in the history of Native Americans, and the original Wounded Knee, and what happened in (19)73. And then also the takeover of Alcatraz, I interviewed John Trudell, who was there and of course, he has passed away and I am really upset that the interview is lost, but, but that was (19)69 to (19)71. And then of course, again, the information of the American Indian Movement in (19)68. So, I am I am really asking about Wounded Knee, AIM, and Alcatraz if you could talk on all three? BC: 1:03:36 Well, that is a big hawk there [chuckles], yeah, after having read [inaudible] book, okay. I came to understand that, did people at that time had to go out and take some toys, you know and-and also point out you know, who owned what, you know and, and who shared culture with whom. And so, in part, I mean, all of these things were skills by eating, and science, you know, with other people in, in movements to point out that Indians were humans, they were fighting stereotypes. It comes as you kicked down from all these you know, Indian movies, and other things which can improve their entity, you know and to turn them into stereotypes. Some of this was also kind of, it tends to go both ways, you know, some people perceive, for example, the Indians you know Alcatraz as, as stereotypical. But I think part of it was, you know, bringing attention to certain issues that they had publicized and part of that was, pointing out that they were human, and part of it was working on getting back the land, you know all these things happened at the same time. And, all of these things had these roots, they were, they were teaching the rest of us these things, that is what I think of it. SM: 1:07:08 The, the, could you talk a little bit about Wounded Knee? BC: 1:07:20 Again, it was a [inaudible] to, to get people to pay attention, I mean to all the things that I talked about earlier. I mean part of it was publicity vehicle part of it was establishing humanity, part of it was understanding, you know, who owns what and where. All of these things, also it goes into, you know the, Wounded Knee happened at the very end of the Vietnam War, so all of the elements that contain that movement, [inaudible] Wounded Knee. But, other than that I do not think of myself as an expert on any-any single incident, and I have not really gone into what, people who established, people who planned it and carrying it out what they thought. SM: 1:09:34 Yeah, I know when reading about the American Indian Movement in (19)68, the people who created it back in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Certainly, Dennis Banks and people like that, were certainly major activists of the 1960s and (19)70s and beyond. Some of the issues you already talked about, the issue of fishing rights the, the revitalization of traditions within the Native American community, the economic independence, which is very important to any group, legal rights, tribal areas, restoration of lands that had been lost. The things that came up in the (19)60s over cemeteries on Native American lands, I grew up in Syracuse, where the Mohawk Nation was fighting to make sure that the New York State Thruway would not go through their, their cemeteries. And there were major protests on the highways near Syracuse for many years. Many college students from Binghamton were involved in those protests, the broken treaties, and obviously AIM started because of the assistance for those who were living in poverty in Minneapolis, and of course that group that came together. Could you talk about, and you know them because of the, you know, who they are, you know, Bell Corte, you know, banks, the leaders of the AIM movement how important they were as leaders? BC: 1:11:19 They were important to but there were all kinds of other people behind them, you know who, you know in the crime life you know, who's [inaudible] we have heard only every so often who are just as important and there are also, how conflicts inside of the movement. Women were not being treated fairly in the movement so, there was a big effort going on inside to address that. There was a group called "Women of all Nations," [inaudible] which was big into you know, pointing out that the majority of Asians were patriarchal and this was not reflected in AIM's behavior which it, at least at the start was very, very male oriented, right. That is an example, but it, you know, other things happened it was not as simple as-as it appeared on T.V. So, you know, they were important, but then AIM also fell hard, you know, in the, let us see after about 1978 and there were major, major differences, between you know different people which were exploited by the FBI and other agencies that were trying to break them up, so. SM: 1:15:02 Yep. Yeah, you know, it is, it is in the antiwar movement and in the civil rights movement, that patriarchal thing was present. BC: 1:15:13 Oh, it was. SM: 1:15:15 Yeah, it was certainly in the American Indian Movement as well. And also, whenever any group starts going toward leaving nonviolence and going toward violence, you start getting into some trouble there. And that whole thing about the COINTELPRO, you bring, it was a question I was going to ask later on here, but they seem to be going everywhere with this thing. The COINTELPRO was the term used by Nixon's government to spy and to infiltrate activist groups challenging the government, any group that challenged the government's issues, linked to the states, what was happening with the, while the eighth, I think you have just described it, you know, they, they COINTELPRO was such a terrible thing, in terms of trying to break up groups, infiltrating groups getting, you know, people to go against each other. Have you done any writing on COINTELPRO and what they did in the American Indian Movement? BC: 1:16:27 [inaudible] SM: 1:16:28 Oh, yes-yes. BC: 1:16:32 Yeah. Look in the index. SM: 1:16:36 Yep. BC: 1:16:37 And from time to time, and type of [inaudible], I have done that. You know, it would be helpful to us, the, you know, in Texas. SM: 1:17:07 Yeah, one of the things, Native Americans also served in the Vietnam War. BC: 1:17:13 Oh, yeah. SM: 1:17:14 There is a brand-new book out now and why, I think it is called, "Why We Serve," it is a brand new one and Barnes and Noble. It is a big book. I would like to ask you, how many, do you know how many Native Americans actually served in the war? And did, most of them come from the inner city or were they from reservations in the inner city and how were they treated in the military? I heard one story from somebody who wrote a book on the Vietnam War. And they said many times, they would put a Native American on point simply because they were Native Americans. Now, all these things, so, you know, how many died in the war? How many around the wall? BC: 1:18:07 Well, I have not ever looked that up. I do know, just by the stories, I have heard that the, [inaudible] was quite high. And it was high, for the most part, because at the time, you know, there were not that many native people in college. So, they, they were not deferred, you know, and they were not, they could not get it. You know, [inaudible] says to, any of those, you know, ways that you can stay out of it. And, some of them actually went on their own because there was an appeal to this stereotype of warrior at the time, but then they get over there. And they find out that well, you know, Uncle Sam is fighting the Vietnamese, and the Vietnamese are the Indian soldiers over there. So, that there is some interesting dialogues where Native Americans find out that they are on-on the wrong side. And that they are being oppressed too, and of course, all the stereotypes and discrimination and all of that went over. You know, this stuff was in the armed forces too. So, I mean, again, I have not studied it and I do not know how, how many there were, just incidentally [inaudible]. SM: 1:20:48 Yeah, I, well I read it in two different books, I cannot remember the two books but they are different ones where in, in a platoon. If there was a Native American within the platoon, the person in charge would say you are on point. And the question, that is a dangerous thing to be on point. BC: 1:21:02 Yeah. SM: 1:21:05 Cause there is a chance you will not come out alive. But also when you are on point that means you are helping the group go in the right direction, and so because there was a stereotypical response "You are good at point, on point, and that is why you are going to, we are sending you there," so, it was so obvious to me when I read it in both instances, in a sense to me they were sending them to their deaths. And because many people on point died and or, they landed or walked on a booby trap or whatever when they were on point. When you look at the 1960s, and the 1970s, because this is the Center for the (19)60s and you brought a lot of historic information in your writings. And your writings are going to be here too, many of your writings. I am going to, my three books I have written by you including the one we have been talking about, I am giving to the university. So, they will be here, at the center. But when you look at the (19)60s and (19)70s, was there, was it a positive or negative time for Native Americans? There was a lot of activism, but were they, was the activism kind of an organizing, a more frustrating or was it a feeling of, good feelings that we were doing something, we were bringing more attention to the world to our issues? BC: 1:22:55 Well I think it was both, you know, there were lots of people who were discovering their history, and what they did, and dealing with problems of their time, with things like fishing rights, and land rights, you know, being mistreated by the FBI and other things. That gave everyone a sense of, you know, spirit, discovery, change, all of that. But at the same time, there was still a lot of people still living on reservations, still unhappy, despicable, inescapable poverty, all of this was happening at the same time, so it goes both ways. You could not change everything at once. So, AIM and others, there were, you know, other older groups have been activists too going back even further, so that tends to fire people up. And when you get active, you get things done and that is a good feeling but you are still looking back at your hometown or you are in places like that where there is people you know, and there is still people who are poor, unhappy, drunk, and that did not disappear. It has not disappeared in our time either. We just, in this area we just disposed of a small town on the South Dakota border, which leads up to [inaudible]. They did not sell anything except beer, so you know Indians were always going up there and buying beer, and cracking it open on the sidewalk. It was quite a sight of the old days, AIM and others have not been able to change the way that human beings, humanity like that. And there is others stores on the boundary because you cannot buy alcohol on the rez, but you can buy it off the rez, and there is still stores which are basically getting people drunk. SM: 1:27:02 Wow. One thing I will say about AIM, and any of the groups from the (19)60s or any activist organization is when they come together, it does create a sense of community, a group of people who think alike, care about the same issues, and then builds, it builds. And certainly, any of those kinds of activities, activist activities, let us the world know that there are many concerns that need to be addressed. And I think another thing too, is, I just finished an interview with Ted Glick, another person from the Catholic movement in the (19)60s. And the fact is that urgency, the concept of urgency is another important quality within any activist group. And what he was trying to do in Minneapolis, like many possible groups, even years before Native American groups, is the fact that these are urgent issues that need to be addressed. And, and part of being an activist group too, or being organizing, is the organizing, of course. But it is the fact that often times, division happens. And of course, we live in a society now that is so divided over everything, but you cannot really bring attention to an issue unless there is some sort of division happening with one's efforts. You know, Alcatraz may have been remembering John Trudell was interviewing. You know, that may have been the people may have been upset about it. And it was, you know, a way to get the attention of Native American issues. But, you know, division was automatic because people did not like it. Jane Fonda arrived at that and they did not like it even more. And so, it is, these are all qualities. I look at these as positive things in an era of a very tumultuous period because whether they would be the people of AIM or the people of the ant-war movement, women's movement, or any of the movements they spoke up, and they did it for a reason. And it was to bring attention to the world, that things need to change and we are living in a world that is equal. We are all one, we are a community and so anyways, I just wanted to kind of throw that in there just from my thoughts on, on that type of thing. One of the things is, was I, maybe you do not know this but was there a generation gap in any of the Native American families with respect to any of these issues we talk about in the (19)60s? BC: 1:30:42 Well, yeah, I mean, there were every family is different and there were things of this type, I mean in all families, you know, my own was that way too. But I detect that there were older families that had this happen, you know, Vine Deloria was still real active in the (19)50s and (19)60s and he influenced a lot of us who came after him. I mean, I do and he was the leader of all kinds of things. Also, kind of a bridge between the older people, and you know, younger ones, you know, he was older, but he was in the movement. And I think the same struggle was happening in Indian households, you know, and others. SM: 1:33:09 Oh, we got a couple more questions then we will be done. Who, who are the icons in the Native American movement of writers, artists, actors, activists, politicians? When you look at the (19)60s and the (19)70s who are the icons that come to mind? BC: 1:33:36 Well the first is [inaudible] who I was, you know, I am really, well of course, and I cannot really think off the top of my head who else you know, because there are all kinds of people in different areas. SM: 1:34:36 Certainly, that book by Dean Brown had influenced you as well. BC: 1:34:45 I am [inaudible] in person, and he said to me that you do not know how any times I have stuck up for you in, you know, debates and whatnot. And you know, I am pretty sure he created it because he was, he had a great influence on me. And if it had not been for him and his book I might have, you know, ended up doing other things, what everything might have been. SM: 1:35:47 Well, I am going to add one name though I am going to add one additional name here. BC: 1:35:51 Yeah. SM: 1:35:52 And that name is Bruce Johansen. BC: 1:35:57 Thank you. SM: 1:35:57 You know, you-you you have no idea the influence that you were having in an awakening in this world about Native American issues and everything. I mean, I, you, you know, I, it is just an honor to talk to you. I mean, you are you are a gifted scholar, and you deeply care about the topic you talk about, and it is, even how you answer your questions, just, just brilliant to me. I have only two more questions. One of them is obviously about the Vietnam Memorial in Washington D.C. Have you visited it yet? BC: 1:36:37 Have I seen it? SM: 1:36:40 Have you been to the wall? BC: 1:36:43 I have not. I mean, I have seen pictures of it. SM: 1:36:49 Yeah, well, I just want to ask this question. In 1982, the wall was built. And all the guys that came home, and gals, who came home from Vietnam were treated terribly, all over the, including the Native American veterans. I mean, nobody treated any of them with any sense of respect. Only until 1982, when the wall was built, Jan Scruggs, John Wheeler, and that group of people that had the courage to make it happen. It was built in remembrance for those who died in that war, the 50,000 plus. Plus, many that were wounded, and all Vietnam veterans who served and as many have told me it is also in memory of the 3 million Vietnamese who died in that war. And so, I-I want, the question I want to ask is, our nation has, was so divided in the 1960s and (19)70s. It was a tumultuous period, but it was also many people say a great time to be alive. So, cause so many issues were being brought to the attention. People were fighting one way or the other. But, the key thing is I want to ask is the healing. I asked this question to a lot of people I remember asked it to George McGovern, Eugene McCarthy, and Gaylord Nelson. And I asked them, as politicians have we healed since the war? And should we care about the healing process, the divided soak of so many different issues? Has the wall done anything really to heal the nation beyond healing those who served, and died, and their families, in just your thoughts? You know, I will mention one thing before you answer this question, and that is that when I asked Gaylord Nelson, Gaylord Nelson was very blunt with me. You know, he was the one that was responsible for ending the funding for the Vietnam War in Congress. He proposed a bill that ended it, and of course, he found it Earth Day. And he looked at me and he said, Steve, people are not walking around Washington, D.C., you know, have they healed from the war, they were not wearing it on their sleeve. But, let me tell you one thing it forever changed the body politic. And just your thoughts on whether this, the wall itself has helped the nation heal? BC: 1:39:29 I think it is a symbol of healing. You know, and in-in that way, I think it helped us heal, heal. I was in a, you know, as a, as you heard, a military family and I was very anti-war myself. And so, that line that split us up with right through our house. And so, we, we had come to terms with that issue, I mean, at home and we kind of did. And I have always thought that everyone deserves honor as a person, you know, as, and as different as we are I have tried to be behave honorably with everybody, no matter what their race, creed, color background, etiology might be. And in part, that is because my, you know, my associations with people who are not by culture or color, or background, are so easily diverse you know, and I think that people need to open up to that, to people who are not like them because there is going to come a time when we are going to have to face the ultimate issue, which is what is happening with our Earth. Because humans have gotten to the point where we control what happens to the Earth, the heating up out there, they are more storms and all these things we can see. And I prayed about that, too, because it is the existential issue, and it is an issue that we all face. And, and if we are going to treat each other honorably, that means we have to deal with the fact that people are different from each other, that they perceive those differences in negative way often. We have to get past that. We have to get past the idea that we are different, and so different that we have to claw each other's eyes out. SM: 1:42:49 Right. BC: 1:42:50 Even if it comes with bargaining ourselves back to bows and arrows. Our resources are going to have to be put to healing the whole Earth, and stopping certain things which are going to screw it up forever. And I have done a stack books on climate change too, and it is real, and it is happening right now. And we are, you know, like, Bob Dylan once sang a heart, brain is going to fall and already has, we have to get to. SM: 1:43:58 Yeah, yeah. Yep, I agree. And it brings in right here, this issue of, the issue of environmental racism with respect to indigenous populations. That is another issue we have to deal with- BC: 1:44:13 Yeah. SM: 1:44:13 -you know, about what is going on in African American communities all over the country, but also Native American. And this especially, and I mentioned Gaylord Nelson, because I know he cared about this, because he founded Earth in 1970. He was about everybody. Yeah, and, you know, environmental racism is certainly an issue in the Native American community. I want to close with this, very broad question here. I, you know, you can be, if I can find it here. I want to thank you again for answering all my questions. But this is, you can be as short or detailed as you want to on this, but could you describe how Native Americans have been treated from the founding of our nation through today? We know about the lies, the broken treaties, the broken promises, the stolen land, the treatments, the dehumanizing of them, Native Americans, as we, as oftentimes being unequal to the white man or anybody else. And, and lack of often times respect for their culture, and understanding of their traditions. And, and been taking these things as part of our culture now, because Native Americans are Americans too, as you talked about, we are all family if we can ever understand this, just in your, just you know you have written books on the history of in so many different areas, you wrote the encyclopedia. If there was one major thing you could just say, toward the end of our interview? How, how have Native Americans been treated from 1776 To 2021? [silence] Are you still there? Okay, could you describe in detail or in your own way, how Native Americans have been treated from the founding of this nation through today, we know about the lies, the broken treaties, the broken promises and stolen land, the treatment, treatment that is been so abusive, often times dehumanizing the group, as unequal’s due to their culture, and their race, just you are, you know, you have written books on many subjects, you have the encyclopedia. But to hear a scholar of your magnitude talk about in a, in a very succinct way, how Native Americans had been treated since 1776 to 2021? BC: 1:47:22 If I could go back to the idea of honor, they often have not been treated with honor. We talked about the wall, you know, the Vietnam Veterans wall are people who died from our country. There is one image that sticks in my head that I cannot get out of it. It is some of the, you know, the service members who came home, who were bat on, and I do not think they deserve that dishonor you know, even though I was against the war, I was not against them. Every person has a different reason or two or more for ending up in that war, or doing anything else and everyone ought to be treated with honor, and it has been a long time, I mean, in fact, the Indian, Indians being maltreated, goes back to 1492, you know, with Columbus and I could go on and on about how Indians were stolen from and mistreated that time, on. People, people from Europe, took the land, they took the resources, and the history is all there. I mean, at least [inaudible] of an open society, that we can go find these things out, we can talk about them, we can demonstrate. That is what has been happening. And, that is a good thing. I mean, it is a good thing to be able to discuss, and get these things out in the air, and make our, make our system more perfect. I mean, if we can face the history act with honor, and honor, honor the people who gave us this land, as it turned out. Some of it was given and some of it was by, by force, think of what all of us have learned. And this is what, why I do, what I do is to try and increase the idea of honor between everybody. And to do that we have to get over some hurdles. And this extends on what I was talking earlier about the existential issue. We cannot be fighting each other and I, this is a high bar. But given what is happening, and we can almost see it on the evening news, and other places that there are more storms. I mean, I could go on, [inaudible], we have not seen them. I mean, I live in Seattle, where things were easy. I mean, it did not go up to, and they did not have you know, huge storms and wash everything away and it was easier in the (19)60s in some ways. So, native people they open it, they offer us the opportunity of seeing history with their eyes. It is necessary, necessary that we think about it, we take it to heart, or we change things because as a scholar, part of the job is it just to watch, I mean, part of the job is to define what we need to do with knowledge to cover it, debate it, and to think things over, to draw other people in because this just gets us together to tackle the really big issues that we all face. You know, that is my two bits. SM: 1:54:07 I think that is, that is a great way to end the interview. And, let me up turn the, can we turn this off? (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Bruce Johansen IIIF Item Metadata UUID e24e750a-7adf-4895-b4ee-c3676409e812 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/505fb97444b8b4bd487e2124eec0fc2f.jpg f8f79b23c312c3c2d706cbcb7b8e6f20 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc318fcd316aa6c21a83934a27c479bf.MP3 8cf857bfe7087b00cc5b5ce96e7f4d59 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 19 November 2021 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ted Glick Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:43:31 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Ted Glick is an activist, organizer, and writer. After a year of student activism as a sophomore at Grinnell College in Iowa, he left college in 1969 to work full time against the Vietnam War. He was imprisoned for eleven months for his draft resistance activities during the Vietnam War. Glick has been active in the independent progressive political movement since 1975 and since 2003 has been a national leader in the climate justice movement. He is the author of several books including his most recent titled <span>21st Century Revolution.<br /><br /></span> Keywords 1960s; Division; Ideology; Students for Democratic Society; Violence; American Indian Movement; Individualism; Change; Prison Issue; Activism. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ted Glick Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 2 December 2021 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 All right. TG: 00:03 Yes. So, I have retired, started working in the, towards the end of (20)15, started working on what became eventually the "Burglar for Peace" book. I have finished the manuscript for that at the end of (20)16, I started looking for a publisher, it took two years until I found somebody willing to publish it. It took another year and a half from that point, until it finally was published. So, there was like a three-and-a-half-year period after I finished that first book. And, you know, I ended up writing, eventually, I, actually the story is that I, after I finished doing that "Burglar for Peace," when I finished that manuscript, one of the next things I did, I happened to find a bible of my father who had died about a year before. And I have never been able to read the Bible. I have been in and out of the church since I was, you know, a little kid. I have never been able to read the Bible, really, very much of it at any one time. But I decided after I looked at his Bible with like, all the markings and the underlining, maybe I should read this Bible, and I did. So, I spent four or five months reading his 2000-page Bible. And that basically got me going on further reading, eventually further writing, what eventually became another book that the title is "The 21st Century Revolution: Through Higher Love, Racial Justice and Democratic Cooperation," which that, almost half though it actually does deal with issues related to religion and spirituality, and the kind of the relationship of, you know, people coming from that perspective or perspectives with those who are essentially not religious or spiritual, or even or are even anti-religious but who also think that the world is in need of a lot of change- kind of the historical inter-relationship between kind of believers and, you know, kind of particularly people coming out of the Marxist tradition, going back to the (18)48 Communist Manifesto, and so on. So anyway, so about half the book is about that, in general terms, and the rest of it is ideas about how we can bring about changes in the world, along the lines of higher love, racial justice, democratic cooperation– SM: 02:44 Wow. TG: 02:45 -action on climate, etc. So, so I am now the author of two books published one year after the other [laughs], which is not something I would have ever thought when I retired would ever be the case, but it just kind of happened that that is the way it worked out. I actually self-published the second book, because I just did not want to spend two more years– SM: 03:07 Right-right. TG: 03:07 -or whatever finding a publisher. So anyway, that is a new development. SM: 03:12 Well, when would that book be in the bookstores? TG: 03:15 Well, I do not know about bookstores, it is probably, you know, in some bookstores right now. It is definitely available via the internet. It is the I, they did not publish it, but the same company that published burglar for peace agreed to distribute this book. So, it is available at pmpress.org. It is right there, if you just put in my name, it will come up. You can order either of my two books right there. That is the really the easiest way. And again, it may be in some bookstores, but I do not know if it is I do not know how many, probably not a lot at this point. SM: 03:57 Well you mentioned your life, you never thought you would be writing two books. But when you look at your entire life, what a life it is. TG: 04:04 Yeah. SM: 04:05 And-and I want to start out by asking this very important for first question is, what is the meaning of an activist? And-and in this definition, who are you with respect to the definition of an activist? And when you look at some of the other greats that you have mentioned in your book, like Dr. King and Gandhi and the Berrigan Brothers, what did they possess as activists that you were always aspiring to? TG: 04:36 Well, I do think, I define myself as an activist, but also as an organizer, and of course, as a person with kind of progressive political views. And so, you know, somebody who is an activist could be, you know, a member of the Ku Klux Klan, right. So, to me it is important to be clear, where, where the activism is going, what is the purpose of it, you know, what is the reason for it. So that is important. The, but also there is, to me, there is a difference between an activist and an organizer. An activist, could be somebody, and there certainly are people I know like this, who, you know, they like to do things that are, you know, that are reflective of their belief. They like to work in a soup kitchen feeding people, they maybe want to, they clean up parks, you know, whenever there is a park cleanup, trying to get garbage, try to clean up parks, there is that that to me, that is activism. And that is all good. But we need also organizers, people who really, and this definitely in terms of that Dr. King, and Ghandi, and Phil Berrigan, they were all people who knew how to bring other people together, how to inspire other people, how to give leadership, how to help other people find their own leadership qualities and to develop them develop, their-their other people's abilities to lead, you know, an organizer is somebody who really, really sees the bigger picture and understands that change does not happen because of individuals that do things, or even individual ideas, those are all, that is all very important. Ultimately, change happens when, when large numbers of people join together in movements, in social movements, political movements, movements for change of some kind, and, and are able to impact society, because they have joined together and because they have been able to, to bring to bring about change accordingly. In whatever way it happens. SM: 07:03 You bring up throughout your book in many different examples, the importance of community. That and bringing people together of like minds for a particular cause. But by having community you also find people who are, may disagree with you, but will create a dialogue with you. And-and I think that was very important to say, because when you think of the country we live in today, and what the (19)60s was all about, there was a lot of division going on. But that division was necessary in order to get the dialogue going to try to and some of the bad things that were happening. TG: 07:46 Yeah, no, that is a big issue of the question. I have actually been thinking about that for the last month or so as far as something I want to write a little bit more about. Because you are right, that there is a lot of similarities between the (19)60s and today in terms of the-the division that exists, and the divisions. But you know, not-not all divisions are bad things, right. When you, uniting a people who have the ideology, you know, of Donald Trump. I mean, their really deep ideology and who worship the guy- uniting people like that with, you know, people like me, people who believe that, you know, Black lives do matter, etc. You know, that is not really likely. People do change. I mean, there are examples of Ku Klux Klan leaders who literally have torn up their Ku Klux Klan cards and have kind of gone over to the other side, as they have come to realize what they were believing and doing was wrong. That does happen. But-but you know, in general, when-when you have that much of a gulf between what people believe in and what they do and what their-their vision of society is, it is, it is important actually for the things it for it to be clear about the differences that exists. Very important. You know, one of the things that I have experienced working politically in the United States is that a lot of other countries allow for multiple political parties. They use systems of proportional representation, where you when you are voting, or a parliament or Congress, you can vote for X individuals, but you also get to vote for a party. And parties that get a certain percentage of the vote, usually it is 5 percent. You know, if you if you show that you are organized enough and have enough of a social base that you can get 5 percent of the vote, then you then you will end up. Yeah, thing 5 percent of the seats in the parliament, which, you know, we call the Congress. That is a much more democratic system. And that, I think, is something that, you know, we need to strive for in this country. In this country, when you have only two parties, there is always this, this tendency to try to mishmash you just, to get anything done there is, there is a tendency for things to kind of be pushed towards the more-more lowest common denominator, when what is really needed is much more significant change than just kind of the lowest common denominator. And having a political system that really reflected the-the different political perspectives that do exist in this country, I think would be helpful. I mean, I do believe, again from experience, that compromise, when you are talking about legislation, certainly, but even when you are talking about building a movement, compromise is something that is real. The key the trick is that, you know, you cannot compromise principles. You can compromise on tactics- -you can compromise on, you know, the particularly, particularities of a solution to a problem. But you cannot compromise on principles. And there is, without question, a long history among people who are on the left, people who are about a different kind of society that is more just, more fair, more peaceful- getting into power, and essentially compromising principles, compromising so much that they essentially become corrupt. They become corrupt leaders. And that is a real problem. That is a real major issue that the second book that I wrote, in many ways, I wrote that book, trying to address that issue, what-what is it that leads to, you know, good causes really good causes going bad, and a lot of it has to do with-with that happening, leaders are getting divorced from the people that they are representing or trying to represent. And leaders just getting caught up in their own individual power, and losing sight of what it was that got them involved in the first place. And in this in this second book, 21st century revolution, I do put forward ideas on how we can build a very different kind of a movement today that I actually think is happening, I do not think it is something in the future. I think it actually is going on right now, a different kind of a movement that that has the kind of internal culture and goes about its whole processes of decision making, and the way it structures itself, to kind of minimize the possibilities of that, that kind of thing happening going forward. It is a huge issue. I mean, anybody who has studied history knows that this is just, you know, a lot of what history is about. Good causes going bad, good people going bad, personal corruption. That is, that is part of the human condition. And but it does not have to be that way. I really do not think it has to be that way. Right. That, it is excellent because you mentioned several times in your book, how movements for gr- for very noble causes can sometimes fall apart because of disagreements within the community. And the community I talk about, the examples you talk about is the Students for Democratic Society. Right. SM: 13:48 And the and then the, going away from non-violence toward violence, really kind of ended that particular group and turned people off. And, and you know, and that also happened somewhat in the American Indian Movement where great causes, but then all of a sudden violence took over and because of this AIM, which started in (19)68, did not live as long, although it still exists for very good causes. But you know, that when you start going from non-violence to violence, that can just ruin it right away. TG: 14:24 Yeah. Yeah. No, no question about it. I-I yeah, I mean, actually, your what you said is just-just right. I guess, the what I would deepen it though a little bit. It is definitely the issue of a commitment to a nonviolent approach versus an openness to violence. But I am actually not a pacifist. I do not own a gun, I have actually never fired a gun with the exception of a camp that I went to when I was a teenager and I would shoot a 22 at targets. And also, when I was in the boy scouts, I think I did a little bit of that then. So, I am not into guns, I am not into violence, I am very much into-into non-violence on a personal level and in terms of the movement that that I am building. But I definitely, for example, I and I referenced this person in my, definitely, in this latest book, I am not sure about Burglars for Peace. But Dietrich Bonhoeffer in Germany was a, he was a pacifist, you know, Lutheran minister, a leader in the German Lutheran Church. And because Hitler was so evil, and because of everything that was happening in Germany, eventually became part of a plot to assassinate Hitler, working with disaffected people in the military and the universities and so on. So, I am not, so in that sense, it is it, it is not necessarily in every single case, violence versus non-violence, I think, to me, it is, it is deeper, it really does have to do with this issue of, of, of personal values, and whether you are going to stick to your personal values and have. I mean, really, for some people, for religious people, it is whether you believe in God and whether you follow, whether you put God and what he, what he stands for what-what or she, this, this thing that we call God, this, this greater force in the universe- whether that is the priority, right? If that is what if that is the number one thing that you are trying every day, to live your life by, by that standard, right, that you trying to, you know, love your neighbor as yourself in a very literal way, and in the way that you interact with other people, in the way that you talk to people, in the way that you communicate, in the way that you work together in an organization to make decisions. Right, you do not, you know, you are not coming from added from an individualistic standpoint that, you know, I want to get my get things my way I want to kind of get, manipulate somebody to get them to go along with me or something along those lines, that it really is a genuine understanding of connections, right. That there are human connections, connections to the natural world, connections to people, you know, who have come before us and people who are coming after us- that those, all of those connections are really what make us, can make us the kind of people that we can be, I mean, that I know we can be, from my own experience. That there is, there are many people who do take those values seriously, whether they are religious or spiritual or-or not at all, they take values of concern for others, of trying to love other people, of trying to be just in your dealings and fair and honest. That is, that is, to me, that is, that is, that is the deeper need, that we have all of us who want to change the world that we need to, you know, not just be-be that way on an individual basis. But we need to talk about this, you know, in this book that, the second book that I wrote, in the research I did, I came across some really good stuff from Albert Einstein. I am kind of looking up right now, what I am hoping for here. You know, Einstein, what, he was not an atheist. He said he was not an atheist. But he also said he did not believe in some, in the conception of God that many people believed in. His was more what he called a kind of a cosmic religion. But one of the things he said, a great quote, it is very short here. That, here it is. And he, you know, he kind of writes more about this, but kind of, here is, here is kind of, to me, the punch line. He is talking about the necessity of a human societies having a, an ethical and a moral approach to-to, you know, to the development of society. And he, he relates that to the just the dominance of the scientific method and science as being you know, what was, back when he was alive was very much, much more of a dominant current, that science is kind of everything. That is the key on understanding being scientific. So here, this is like this couple sentences here. He said this in (19)51. He said quote, "A positive aspiration and effort for an ethical, moral configuration of our common life is of overriding importance. Here, no science can save us." And I have had definitely experience over, you know, the years that I have been active, with people who have essentially seen themselves as very scientific, everything needs to be just objective scientific, etc. But there is a dimension to life that is more than science. You know, again, Einstein talks about that. He talks about the-the mysterious, the sense of awe and grandeur that you can get when you are out in nature. That that that to him is kind of like a way that we, you know, sense this greater force that people call God that there is this greater power, greater force in the universe. And it is important that people do not lose that, do not lose that that sense of wonder, that is the I mean, Jesus talked about to enter into heaven, you need to be like a child, right. A child who is just kind of, you know, amazed at everything that he or she, you know, experiences as they are growing up. And it is just a whole, a joy, and an interest, and so on. SM: 21:34 This is what, some of those comments, there just, it can link up to your life. In the early part of your book, you talk about those early years when you were growing up with your parents. And then of course, going off to college, I looked at, you know, for any young person or trying to find his or her way in life, it is a great book, because you are a perfect example, and a role model of a person whose evolving is ongoing, yet you had a lot of uncertainties at times, but you found your way. And in life's journey, in the end, even with some of the discussions you had with your parents, it was your way, it was not their way, it was your way, you found your way. And if you could talk a little bit about those early years, growing up in Lancaster and, you know, your upbringing with your parents, and then going off to college and, and in particular, discuss what was going through your mind at college with respect to what was become- what was happening at the time on college campuses and linkage with the society in the United States and the world, linked to the Vietnam War. And of course, in our country, Civil Rights, the draft, the multiple movements that were evolving for gay and lesbian, Chicano, African American, women's movement. You know, those kinds of things. They were all happening when you were in college, and they were obviously, you were going to things, hearing speakers, talking to your peers, but you were trying to find yourself. Could you kind of describe that a little more in detail? TG: 23:18 Yeah, sure. Well, you know, growing up before I went to college, I did have the benefit of being part of a family, which was, of course, primarily my parents. It also did include aunts and uncles and grandparents. I again, I have, had the real privilege of on both sides of my family, having those connections, family reunions, that went on a lot and visits to, to, you know, my aunts and uncles and my getting to know my cousins and so on. And within that family, the two the two families, the-the Glicks on my father's side, and the Zieglers on my mother's side, you know, the things I am talking about were generally the way people viewed the world, there was a real strong strain of the importance of an ethical, and a moral life of a lot of the best of Christian principles. So that that was, I was not an activist at all, when I was in, in high school. You know, I was just, you know, doing sports, that was my big thing. You know, pretty good students. things here and there, I had my friends. But I was following things. My-my, my parents, particularly my father, was active, to some extent in the local civil rights movement in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, although for some reason he never talked very much with either me or my two sisters about it that I remember. He just, I think he had a view that essentially, I had to make my own way. And he really did not talk to me much at all about what he was doing or why he was doing it even although, again, I the values I understood were, that was what was underlining it. And I do have memories of my father explicitly saying things to me about it, there-there was one time in I think Chicago when I was maybe four or five, and we were at the at a at the beach, I guess it must have been Lake Michigan and somebody must have used the N word close to where we were. And I think I asked him, "What does that mean?" He says, "well, Ted, I do not ever want to hear you use that word." And then he kind of explained what, what, what it meant and why it was the wrong thing to say, and so on. So certainly, those-those things happen. I remember another time, my dad and I had gone up to a hockey game, I was maybe 15 or 16. And we were in Lancaster, we went to Hershey, Pennsylvania, there was a minor league hockey team there. And every once in a while, we did that. And I just remember one time, we were driving in the car, listening to the radio, and there is some story about like, you know, poverty in you know, in the world, how many people were in poverty, and so on. And my dad just made this very short comment about Ted, there is something that you could maybe do with your life. And I, that is that, that is stuck with me all these years, which has to mean that it had an impact on me. So, there were things, so there are things like that that happened that again, it was not so much politics, it was values. That, that is what I got more than anything from my parents and from my bigger family. So that then when I went off to college, and you know, there I am, you know, the whole, I mean, I had been following the Civil Rights Movement as I was kind of growing up and becoming a teenager, and I certainly was supportive of the Civil Rights Movement in a general sense, without doing anything. My dad did take me to hear Martin Luther King once, when he came to speak at a at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster. So, you know, I had some exposure to that, and was definitely sympathetic and supportive of, you know, Black people being treated equally, and having equal rights and voting rights and everything else that was not, it was not hard to support that, again, based upon how I was raised. When I have got to college, because of the Selective Service system and the necessity to register, that brought the issue of war and militarism much more, you know, it came home to me. I did decide to register. At that point, I did not even know that there was such a thing as a draft resistance movement, that was urging young men not to register as a way to protest the war. I did not know that when I when I registered in (19)67. But I did learn about it at college in my freshman year, and I increasingly, as I was learning more about the war and studying more about, you know, the history of, you know, African Americans in this country, I was definitely becoming more and more upset about all of that. Definitely upset when the TV news literally seemed like almost every day would give the body count, number of killed and it was in the hundreds every day, hundreds of people being killed. And I had done the study to realize that the United States was just wrong in what it was doing. It essentially had gone in right after French colonial colonialism in Indochina had been defeated. And the people there were in the process of trying to run their own country from, or countries. And the US had gone in to basically replace France as this colonial power in it. And everything had just gotten totally out of hand with the escalation and so many people being killed and just the devastation. So, I was torn up about that, I was really torn up. Eventually, that led me to turning in my draft card, led me to leaving college to work full time against the war primarily and that eventually led the course to the Catholic left and going into draft boards and storing draft files into prison and so on. So that was, that was kind of the that was, that was the, that was a trajec- trajectory very much based in how I was raised. Things I experienced, you know, growing up and then being exposed when I got to college to issues that I, you know, and people there in college who had views that I had had very little contact with. And that is how I changed. SM: 29:56 Well, one of the- one line in in your book that really stood out- and there are many lines- but it is this one sentence. And it is when you describe that the-the event that changed your life was the event on April 4 (19)68. TG: 30:15 Yeah, that was it. That was one of them. You know, Martin Luther King was killed. That was what finally pushed me. That turned me into an activist. That literally was the day I became an activist. And I have been going ever since I just, I was going in that direction, moving towards it. My thoughts were more and more along those lines, but I was not doing anything. I was, I guess, afraid. It was like a step into the unknown. Maybe I knew, I maybe I had some sense that if I did this, you know, who knows what would, I would become, but it just all built up that that that was the point at which I said, "Well, maybe they killed him. But you know, I can maybe do what I can." And I had, I felt I had to do something, it was like I was driven, I had to do something. So, I put up this little petition on the wall of the mail room where everybody got their mail, all the students got their mail, this was of course before the age of the internet. And about half the students signed it within a couple of days. And I sent it off to the to like Mike Mansfield, I believe, who was the Speaker of the House, and I forget who the person was in the Senate, I sent it off to them. Basically, calling upon-upon them to take action to change the conditions that Dr. King was trying to change. And then I you know, at that it just continued from there. And you-you know, I have never, I have never regretted the way for doing all of this. I have I have met people just recently, actually. Earlier this year, I was visiting my son and daughter in law and our, at that point, like three-month-old grandson. And I was talking with somebody, a friend of my son and daughter in law about, you know, my life and what I have been doing. And he, he was, you know, he had read my book, he had read my "Burglar for Peace “book. And he, you know, his, his feeling was that, you know, I had just made all these sacrifices, and I was probably alone, a lot of the time and etc. And my wife who has a kind of similar background to mine in terms of being an activist and an organizer for a long time. We said, "Well, not-not really." I mean, I said "we, when we embarked on the life that we did, we found there were other people who saw things the same way. And over time, you know, we developed friendships and connections that were very helpful and gave us support. And we joined organizations and networks." And that has been true ever since it is not, it is not as if it is not like there has not been really difficult times, times when I have had doubts, no question about that. I mean, that continues today. But in general, I feel really lucky to have had the experiences that I have that I did. And to come to this kind of a life. I I am very lucky. SM: 33:20 I know that when the funeral was on TV for Dr. King, they showed the audience and Bobby Kennedy was sitting there. And the sun was coming through at Ebenezer Baptist Church, and it was landing right on him. And when he was killed a coupl- two months later on June 5 of (19)68, you know, I thought of that. Yeah, and I know you are working for him and so that must have shocked you too. TG: 33:53 Yeah, that was definitely another big turning point that that was, you know, after Dr. King was killed. Yeah, I went to work for Bobby Kennedy. I was very much, you know, into activism. After, you know, and, and working for Bobby Kennedy was the main way that I was doing it. After he was killed two months later, I felt hopeless. I felt like, geez you cannot even like get somebody elected president who you support? I mean, what is happening to this country? You know, you had Richard Nixon spouting off all that he was spouting off, Spiro Agnew, all these really right winger, George Wallace. I mean, it was very similar to the dynamics today, it really was. The atmosphere was very similar to what is happening now with Trump and all the Trump followers and so I-I kind of look upon that as my, my summer of being radicalized. It was when I, as I said and say in my book, it was when I-I discovered Bob Dylan and I started listening to, you know, all his protest songs. And the one that I just stuck on was "Masters of War." That was someone that just really was so just right there in terms of my mood, you know. I actually, just a week or two ago, I was out riding my bike, I ride my bike kind of long-distance biking, I do that a few times a week. And, and every once in a while, something happens when I am riding my bike, something comes to mind. I mean, actually, a lot of times things come to my mind that I are kind of helpful in terms of just either my work, or just-just appreciating more about life or who I am. So, one, so one of the things that came to mind was that song Masters of War is that there was something that had happened I forget which-which particular outrage it was, it made me feel like, "Oh, my God, is there, what is happening to this country, is there any real hope?" So, you know, that next morning, I, that song just kind of reappeared it kind of came up from within me. And I just started while I am on my bike, trying to remember that versus just the anger and outrage, and they have kind of the agony of that song. And yeah, and it is, and it is, and it is still through the day, but-but the things are different today, there is, there are definitely differences between-between back then and today, and in a good way. It remains to be seen, who is going to win out right now, the forces of evil and the forces of try, trying to do things in a just way. I mean, that remains to be seen, but there are differences that are much more I would say in the favor of the good guys. That was true back then. And actually, what you said about what happened with SDS is a good example. You know, you have a you have a very strong movement among young people here, not just in the United States, but worldwide, you know, young people, particularly around the issue of a climate crisis, but not just that. They are, they are definitely in motion, they definitely see that need to take action, the need to speak out, to get organized. And there is nothing that I have seen that comes anywhere close as far as you know, the-the dynamics within that youth movement, to what happened back there, 50, 50 years ago– SM: 37:31 Right. TG: 37:31 -particular, particularly with SDS, there is nothing like it, nothing close to it. There is a more maturity, I would say among these young people, they understand the importance of community. They are not into kind of nihilistic adventuristic violent actions, because they are feeling so terrible and hopeless. You know, that is, that is, that is very important. That is very important. SM: 37:54 You know, you lost two people that were probably heroes to you in Dr. King, and Bobby, and of course, many, you know, we are the same age and the front edge boomers are certainly affected by this. But they were also affected by the assassination of the President, United States in (19)63. TG: 38:13 Right. SM: 38:14 And I have often wondered, and I do not know if you thought of this a lot, I have- what that assas- assassination did in (19)63, and the two in (19)68. And I also put in there, Malcolm X and (19)65. And there is Medgar Evers, and the list goes on and on. It, what does this say about America? TG: 38:39 Well, there is a very deep strain of white supremacy, racism, violence. You know, kind of a libertarianism kind of individualism, actually more than a libertarianism, very much individualism. There is a lot of that, for sure. And again, we see it in what exists right now. You know, this, this country has, the history of the US is a history in many ways of struggle between those who, you know, want to keep it, you know, something dominated by white men, white, rich, white men of property, right. And we see that today. The whole Republican Party. It is astounding, you know, in terms of the who is in Congress, virtually the whole Republican Party, that is their agenda. How do we maintain the rule of rich white man, [inaudible] straight men, right? That is, that is, that is what they are about. It is all about power. Principle is just in short supply. And then, you know, you have those on the left side of things who are in various different ways- there is all kinds of differences- but in various kinds of ways are trying to make a, quote, "more perfect union," trying to change the society. I mean, that is what the history of the US has been about starting with the Bill of Rights and the struggle over, you know, the Bill of Rights right after the revolution. And then, of course, the Civil War, the slavery and the women's suffrage movement and the labor movement of the (19)30s. You know, peace movements along the way, and the whole emergence of the LGBTQ movement in the late (19)60s on a on a mass scale and disability rights. I mean, just that, that is, that is the struggle in this country. And there really are, I do believe, and I think generally polls show this, there is a lot, there is definitely more people who want to move things forward, than there are people who want to basically go back to the old way of Jim Crow, and segregation And women being essentially second class citizens and gay people, you know, be trying to push them back into the closet and all those, that that whole social cultural dynamics, women not having the right to make decisions about their own bodies, in terms of children [inaudible], having children, all those things. I definitely believe that there is many more of us than there are of them. But you know, that does not necessarily mean as we can see right now with the laws that are being passed, they it is all over the country to suppress the vote when you look at the-the who is on the Supreme Court because of the machinations of Mitch McConnell– SM: 41:41 Right. TG: 41:42 -to prevent people from being nominated who should have been or who should not have been, you know, when it comes to what is, what is her name? Amy, Amy Coney Barrett, what one month before the election, all of a sudden, you know, she is put forward things like that. SM: 42:00 Right. TG: 42:01 So yeah, that is the history. And, you know, it is maybe that is the history of the world. I mean, if you look at what is happening in the world, it is just this constant battle between the forces of progress and moving forward. SM: 42:14 Yep, I agree. TG: 42:14 And those who just-just want to want to stay stuck in basically backwardness, you know, cultural and political backwardness. SM: 42:23 I always thought that in the (19)60s when we were young, and this whole kind of utopian idea that-that the future would all be steps going forward. And now we hear so many times people saying we are taking two steps forward, and then we have to take one step backward. It you know, it is amazing. I like to talk to you about the on Ultra Resistance, the Catholic left and– TG: 42:23 Right. SM: 42:25 -certainly, in your book, you talk about the two important qualities that they that united them. First off, they were, they were believed in the Catholic Church's principles. But number two, is their- their reluctance and their protests against events like the Vietnam War and the draft, that it was the draft that united them. And could you talk a little bit about your experience with your draft card? And number two, you mentioned David Harris. I have interviewed him and-and I have interviewed some other people like David [inaudible], who was in that group in New York City that burned his draft card. Could you talk about the importance of the draft in really inciting people to the activists? Come– TG: 43:39 Yeah no, no question back there in the (19)60s, the draft and the movement against the draft was-was a huge thing, in terms of eventually ending the war. And in terms of more and more people, you know, seeing, you know, the faults, and the deep-seated faults and problems of the society. And all the other movements, really the kind of, kind of emerged out of the Civil Rights Movement first, and then the peace movement and then everything else. I mean, the thing about a draft is that, you know, if you are a, back then if you are a young man, does not matter your color, your income, where you live, you have to register that to be part of the Selective Service system, and you are liable to be drafted. Of course, there, there were ways that you know, richer people like what happened with Trump and Bush, they were able to get into the either the National Guard in Bush's case or in Trump's case, you know, get a doctor to say that if he had, what was it, fallen arches or something with his feet. So, you know, there is definitely that is, that is all it was kind of part of the dynamic but in general, everybody was affected. The vast majority of people were affected by this and when there is a hot war with hundreds of people dying every day and people coming back in body bags and without arms and legs and with their minds really messed up and PTSD and everything else. You know, that can have big impacts upon a society and upon, you know, a whole generation of young people. So that is what happened. That is what happened when it came to the Vietnam War. I mean, this the Vietnam War was not World War Two, we were not fighting against Hitler and fascism. You know, we were kind of the opposite. We were fighting on behalf, on the side of really the some of the most dictatorial elements in the southern part of Vietnam, that, that is the ones who had actually collaborated with the French when it came to colonialism. So as-as the truth kind of eventually comes out, and people realize that this is an unjust war that we should not be in, and yet here is, here is so many young men who are liable to have to go and fight it. Yeah, over time, that-that, that it was, it was, it was, it was a context, it was a set of realities that definitely impacted your ability to build a big strong movement. SM: 46:15 How did you feel? How did you feel inside when you yourself were [inaudible] going in front of people, regarding your card? TG: 46:25 I am sorry, what was that about going before people? SM: 46:28 Yeah, when people saw it, when you, you, you know, if you are on stage, or mailing your card in or whatever it was, what was going through your mind? TG: 46:38 I was just so angry, and so upset. That was the dynamic that was driving me. I-I was a shy kid growing up. I mean, I really was. I mean, I was actually really shy in a lot of ways. When I was no longer a kid, for quite a while. I am less shy now, finally. But you know, I, it is like, the war consumed my life. I mean, it just consumed me, it was something that I could not forget. And it was just such a monstrous evil. That, you know, I know, I knew some people who, you know, were going to Vietnam, who were threatened with it, you know, it was just this all-consuming thing. And I was not the only one that-that was true for. Again, that is, that is why you had a direct Resistance Movement develop and why you eventually have a Catholic left develop with more militant actions. Yeah, I think- thinking. I mean, the thinking was, you know, what you did when you were trying to understand, you know, reading books and trying to write what it is all about. But then at a certain point, you know, I mean, you obviously had to keep thinking about what-what should you do, what you should do. But, you know, Bonhoeffer had a really, really good, good statement, he said, something about he was like, he was writing to a young person from prison, he said something like, "your generation..." No, it sounds like we have "We have spent too much time in thought, and, and debate, believing that, that is the way we should be about living our lives for you." He is saying, to this young person, "Your thinking will be much more related to your responsibilities in action." SM: 48:42 Yep. TG: 48:43 There was like a connection between thinking and action that he made. And that is all that stuck with me, that that quote always stuck with me. I think that is the way I am. I think I continue to be like that. I do a lot of thinking, that is for sure. But I eventually do feel it is really important for us to go somewhere and not just kind of be out there. SM: 49:04 It is the importance of deeds over dreaming. TG: 49:07 Yeah. SM: 49:08 Of what could be, let us make it by doing it through deeds. TG: 49:11 Yeah. SM: 49:11 I, your discussion of prison, and all those experiences in prison, I think are important too. Because I can remember and you, your- you really loved Dr. King, he often talked about if you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs, then maybe you do not really have beliefs. And, and of course, the letter from Birmingham jail is one of the greatest things ever to read. And I am, I am a firm believer in that. And so, you have to take that risk. And there are too many people in this world who are indifferent and silent, fearful of losing their security and so forth. And all of that goes away when you create a deed like you have done in your life and other activists have done. Your thoughts about, you know, Dr. King, and that whole philosophy about, you must be willing to go to jail for your beliefs. TG: 49:31 Right. Yeah. I have to think where to begin. You know, jail is certainly not a fun place to be. The reality is, of course, that overwhelmingly, the people who are in jail are people who come from low income, low wealth backgrounds who are Black or indigenous or Latino. That is, that is certainly the reality in the United States. So, you know, jail can be romanticized, it is not, it is, it is, it is a hard place to be day to day for sure. But if you are unwilling to take risks of going to jail, if you are unwilling to basically voluntarily suffer. You know, fasting is another example, you know, you are, you are, you are almost taking away a very important weapon, you know, a nonviolent weapon that we need to have. There is a, there is a lot of history that shows that when people are willing to take risks, when they are willing to step out of kind of their usual kind of roles in society, when they are, when they are willing to, you know, to go to jail if necessary, for an important cause, that, that is, that is definitely a component of building a successful movement for change. If you do not, if the people who believe in something are only willing to go so far, you know, it kind of gets picked up on by others that well, yeah, your ideas are good, but it is not that important, or probably not going to happen et. cetera, you know, there is this need for, it is almost like a disruption of the routine. There is a need for something to be introduced into a dynamic that is new and different, that makes people think, you know, make people think, "Why would they, why would they do that? Why would they be willing to go to jail? Why would they get- why would they be willing to get arrested or not eat for days or weeks?" So that, that, that is, that is, it is an important component of societal change. I mean, probably the best example would be Jesus really, or one of the best examples. I mean, if he had been unwilling to, you know, stick with it, and he knew what he was getting into when he was going there to Jerusalem. He knew what the risks were, were, he may have known exactly what was going to happen if you believe certain things about Jesus, but you are cert- there is no question just historically that he was he was very smart man and he knew what he was risking, and, but he stuck with it. And he did not run. He was willing to face it. And look what has happened because of his courage. SM: 53:20 Right. TG: 53:20 His willingness to do that. SM: 53:21 Yeah. TG: 53:22 Look, what-what, what exists worldwide. You know, there is a lot of corruption. There is or there is certainly been a lot of corruption, a lot of bad dynamics within organized religion, certainly Christianity with both Catholic and Protestantism. And you have like, right wing conservative evangelicals and fundamentalists who just really distort the truth, the really certainly what Jesus was all about, the Old Testaments kind of another story, it is much more of a mixed bag. But certainly, when it comes to Jesus and his life, there is a lot of distortion of what he really was about that goes on. But-but you know, another person like that, that has been important to me is that James Connolly, who was a leader of the Irish Freedom Movement, he was also a socialist and a labor organizer in the, I guess, the late (18)00s, early (19)00s. He was part of the Easter Uprising in (19)60s, in Ireland, and he-he was not, he was captured with others, when that uprising failed, and, you know, I-I read a biography of his and, you know, he was he was a socialist, but he also was a Christian. He did have religious beliefs. He was also a feminist very interestingly, he got, in many ways he was he was kind of ahead of his time, in terms of a lot of man, a lot of people, a lot of men on the left actually. And, and he would write about and he-he felt that there, there that in terms of again, moving the process forward of social change- in his case, trying to get independence for Ireland from Britain and for a more just society- that was much more respectful of working-class people and so on, that some people were going to have to take risks and maybe die. And he ended up, he ended up being killed because of those beliefs and his willingness to act on them. You know, there is a saying, I am not sure I am going to get it quite right. But it is something like, if you do not, if you are not, if you are not willing to, if your beliefs are such that you are not willing to die for them, your beliefs, beliefs are probably not very deep. That is not quite right. But I think that is true. SM: 54:19 Oh, okay. Yeah. I know that you have talked in depth about the trials that the ultra-resistance went through, particularly the Harrisburg Nine and the Catonsville Trials, could you describe the lessons that you learned from these trials, and how important they are when trying to, you know, let the world know that the issues that you are trying to reach out to the world to get to know better? TG: 56:25 Yeah, well you know, it is really, really interesting that you are raising that now. I was just part of a trial. A one-one week ago, today, November 12, in Wilmington, Delaware, I was part of a grandparents' walk, walk for our grandchildren. We went from Scranton, Pennsylvania, to Wilmington, this was late June of this year. And you know, calling upon, you know, President Biden to be a strong leader on issue of climate and social justice. And at the end of the of this, it was like eight days of a walk and sometimes driving in between Scranton and Wilmington, 15 of us got ourselves arrested in front of a major complex of Chase Bank, at the credit card headquarters for Chase Bank and the United States. And Chase Bank happens to be the number one financer of the fossil fuel industry in the world. And they have been they have been that for the last five years, there has been reports that have come out analyzing banks and their role in financing, you know, new gas, new oil, new coal, and so on. And so, we-we had this action. And we were offered, paying 10, a $10 fine, and then that would be the end of it. And most of us decided not to take that offer we decided we wanted to have a trial, insist on our right to a trial. So, we had, we had one a week ago. And the thing that we did in that trial, that is the same as that I and others did in, in my first trial in Roches- Rochester, New York. This was in (19)70, one of the draft board raids was in Rochester, New York, and in (19)70, and seven of the eight of us defended ourselves. We were our own lawyers, and what we found during that trial, and then what we found just a week ago, was that our doing that, you know, and we were prepared, we did have a lawyer who was an advisor who was involved with us but, you know, we were our own lawyers, essentially. And in both cases, the use of that tactic of being a defendant defending themselves, really, really opened up the courtroom, it made it possible to bring in the information and kind of backed, stuff that backed up our claim that what we were doing, what we did may have broken the law but it was not a crime, or that there was or that there was a much greater crime that we were addressing. In the case of the Rochester trial, it was the Vietnam War in particular. In the case of this trial a week ago, it was climate change, climate disruption and the role of Chase Bank being a major enabler of the expansion of fossil fuels, which of course is the driver of climate change. SM: 59:34 Right. TG: 59:34 And you know, we were really very effective at getting stuff in, the judge, this kind of justice of the peace judge was a woman. We were surprised really how much we got in and it was because we were organized. We actually were respectful. We were not going in there to disrupt the courtroom. We really wanted to make our case. So, so my less- you know, it was kind of driven home again to me this lesson that the court, the court can be a place where you can, again, really have impacts, have real impacts on people where you can show, you know, really-really, it can be a platform for speaking and for putting forward your beliefs and articulating, articulating them. And that and-and that there is something behind them, you are not just kind of talking. You are there because you took an action, you were willing to do something with your belief and risk, you know, time in jail. And so, yeah, I definitely in terms of a life lesson, I do believe that people, people being willing to do a nonviolent civil disobedience, and being willing to then go to trial, and, and defend the action and get at the "why" of why the actions happened to the extent that, that is done well, that that can be a very, very effective technique and a tactic in building a movement for the kind of change we need. SM: 1:01:15 That was brilliantly said, very- I want to ask also about the sections on your prison life. What did you learn in prison? TG: 1:01:27 Well, the- you know, the number one thing I would say is, I, you know, when you are in prison, you know, you are a prisoner. Generally, you do not have a lot to do during the day, you know, most cases the jobs that are available that you are assigned to, is really not a lot of work to do, they kind of make work. So you have a lot of time just to observe. And one of the things that I observed in the prisons that I was in over the, just about a year that I was going to prison was the kind of the structure of things, how they work that you had this whole hierarchy of, you know, you had the warden at the top on the top, then you had kind of the guards with their officers, they were kind of a next level. Then, of course, you had some other staff there at the prison. But then even among the prisoners, like I particularly saw this at Danbury prison. Danbury, you had a setup where they were, the best, most of the people at Danbury, including me, lived in dormitories where there was like 50 to 100 people in one big room, with your, with your bed and your locker. Essentially, that was what you had, where you could keep stuff in your locker. And, but there were there were individual rooms, that you could say were kind of like cells, but they tend to be more like rooms, you know, they were locked at night, that kind of thing. But I noticed that those rooms which were, the better, better housing accommodations went to primarily the more white collar white, you know, people who have broken the law, the criminals, the people who were there for white collar crime, those were primarily who got those. So I saw that. And then I saw basically, the rest of the kind of the prison society of course, which was the prisoners, who in the case, of Danbury, again, you know, many Black and Latino, many work working class whites, low income, whites, in vast majority of cases. So just-just the kind of the class dynamics the kind of the structure of how the prison society worked. I just realized that it was pretty similar to how society is structured here. And in the outside world, it is different, you know, it is not as stark, of course, because you are in, you are not in prison, can tend to be hidden. But you-you, you have a similar a similar dynamic here in terms of kind of various classes. So that was, that was one that was one big thing that, for me, came out of prison. On a personal level, I would say it was very valuable in terms of particularly my interactions with-with Black people, you know, I had-had very little contact before going to prison with, you know, individuals, you know, Black-Black people where I grew up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, it was overwhelmingly white, very, very few, very, very few Black or you know, Latino people were where I lived and where I went to school, but in prison it was different. And so I developed friendships. And, you know, I just basically came to learn that, you know, basically we are all the same ultimately you know, there are differences in culture, there is certainly differences in the way society structures things in terms of poverty and classes and so on. But underneath it all, we all are really the same in terms of our desires, our fears, our anxieties, etc. I just, I just learned that by interacting on a daily basis with people who, you know, I had not interacted with. And I guess it was kind of true also, with kind of more lower income working class whites when I, the first prison I went to in Ashland, Kentucky was a youth prison. Because I was 21 at the time, and a lot of the of the people who were there were from Appalachia, or Appalachia, and they were there for stealing a car and they had been prison, they had been sentenced to up to six years in prison for stealing a car. And they would get out, the sooner they would get out would be when they kind of became less rebellious, and basically more adjusted and so on. But, you know, I just had more day to day interactions with kind of, you know, Appalachian, you know, young white men, and kind of a similar thing, right. So that-that was, that was definitely a really very big, positive thing for me just being exposed to people from different races, different classes or cultures. And again, seeing that whatever their views, whatever their idiosyncrasies, whatever, in some cases, they are, you know, the fact that they were really kind of messed up emotionally, acted out, things like that-that, you know, there but for fortune go I, right that, that, that anyone, I could have been any one of those people if I had been just born to, you know, different parents and a different, you know, reality. It was just luck that I ended up the way I did ultimately, and that I really needed to never forget that-that underneath it all, each of us we are pretty similar, and we want many of the same things. SM: 1:07:18 For people that will be listening to this interview now and 50 years from now, who if you could describe these three individuals in your own words, who was Philip Berrigan, who was Daniel Berrigan and who was Eliza- Elizabeth McAllister? TG: 1:07:40 Well, Phil Berrigan, is pretty easy. Phil was one of the best organizers I think I have ever met. You know, he was a really, he was a tough guy in a good way. He was very strong, very determined. He knew how to talk to people in a respectful way. He knew how to build community, how to bring people together, I just experienced that particularly at Danbury prison when I was there with him and with Dan Berrigan for about six months. He you know, he had his rough edges, he talks about them in his, in his own autobiography, you know, he sometimes could definitely get impatient and try to impose really, his views. But I would not say that was the main thing about Phil at all. And, you know, he really, he really took the teachings of Christianity seriously, the best of Christianity seriously and he tried to live them out in his life, particularly, I guess, after World War Two, he was exposed to a lot in World War Two. That certainly sobered him and made him realize how war is just a such a terrible thing. Yeah, that is what I say about Phil. I actually, I would also say he was somebody I learned eventually, who, even when you did have big disagreements with them that, you know, ultimately, he was able to, as I learned and I hope that I have continued to be, was that that, that differences between people in general should not be a reason why there cannot be some connection, some relationships, some way of continuing to talk and be in contact. So that was something I think, ultimately learned from Phil and kind of my own interactions with him. As far as Dan, Dan was not so much a good organizer, I mean, he did do it. He was much more of a you know, very creative, really very brilliant big picture guy. He saw things, he saw kind of a bigger picture he, I think, had a sense of history, a sense of I do not know, just-just kind of the what, the vicissitudes of life, kind of the angst, the good things, the bad things. Either roll with it. I do not know, there was kind of a depth, a depth to Dan, I would say that was not quite the same with Phil. Dan was just really wise, very wise. Very wise person. And as far as Elizabeth-Elizabeth, she was also a very determined person, she really definitely had an inner strength. She-she got involved, I think into political activity later in life. And perhaps getting into the Cath- Catholic left what she did, it was it was not I do not think it was so much her thing at that point in time. I think I would say that, she was, she was a good organizer, but not as good as, as Phil. I do not know, I honestly, I had run ins with-with Elizabeth in a way I really did not generally with Phil and Dan and ultimately, I did have run in with Dan actually. But I had more difficulty with Liz and kind of the work that we did together. So, but the thing about her is that she is stuck with it, you know. She not doing very well right now as we are speaking. I am not sure how many more years she has. But she has just been a warrior. She has like not, she has continued to take action. She was there and prisoner for what, a year and a half I believe it was for, you know, an action against nuclear weapons in Georgia. She has refused to, to give up and has stuck with it. And her perseverance is definitely an example to learn from. She was the mother as Phil was the father of three young people. I know one of them, Frida Berrigan pretty well and Frida is great. Yeah, that those-those have been my experiences and how I would see them. SM: 1:12:51 Let me I want to, for the record, just have to Daniel Berrigan quotes here. And then I have got one quote from you. And then I will come back with another question. But this is from page 44 of your book. And this is Daniel: "A Christian can confront the law of the land. That law which protects the war makers even as it prosecutes the peacemakers. The Christians can refuse to pay taxes. They can aid and abet and harbor people like myself who are in legal jeopardy for resistance, along with AWO Wells. They can work with GIS on bases helping those young men to awaken to the truth of their condition and their society. In coffee houses or with hospitality in their homes, they can organize within their professions and neighborhoods and churches, so that a solid wall of conscience confronts the deaths makers, they can make it increasingly difficult for local draft boards to function. There are a hundred nonviolent means of resistance up to now untried, or half tried or badly tried. But the peace will not be one without such serious and constant sacrificial courageous actions on the part of large numbers of good men and women. The peace will not be won without the moral equivalent of the loss and suffering and separation, that the war itself is exacting." And then the other quote, and then I am going to have your quote as well, on page 27, and 28 here. So yeah, this is Dan again, speaking: "We say killing is disorder, life and gentleness and community and unselfishness is the only order we recognize. For the sake of that order, we risk our liberty, our good name. The time has passed when good people can remain silent, when obedience can segregate them from public risk, when the poor can die without defense. We ask our fellow Christians to consider in their hearts a question, which has tortured us night and day since the war began." The Vietnam War, "How many must die before our voices are heard? How many must be torn-tortured, dislocated, starved, maddened? How long was the world's resources be raped in the service of legalized murder? When at what point will we say no to this war? We have chosen to say, with the gift of our liberty, if necessary, our lives, the violence stops here, the death stops here, the suppression of truth stops here, this war stops here." Those are powerful words. And then, and then here is a very powerful words from you, Ted, and this is on page 21. And here it is, here: "As I as I read, and thought, the more I became first confused, then sad, then angry, and now moved to the point where I must take a stand against what I feel is ruining the lives of many young people in this country, as well as the lives of millions of people in the third world. I make this protest against death, I make this affirmation of life because I deeply believe the United States actions have caused and are causing such a high degree of suffering, and have destroyed so many lives that I must cry out against these actions, by this break, age and non-compliance with the selective service system. I do so with a feeling of inward peace now that I am no longer tied to what I consider wrong." I just want to quote these because I thought they were great thoughts from your book. Any thoughts on any of them? TG: 1:16:49 Well, yeah, you know there really is an inward piece to living out your belief, as much as possible. I mean, the reality for a lot of people in this world is they need to survive, they need to do things to, you know, put bread on the table, pay the rent, you know, clothes for your kids and yourself, etc. That definitely means sometimes you just have to do that. And you take what you can get, if you cannot get the kind of job you would really like. So, I know that reality, and I have, I have dealt with that myself over the years in terms of, you know, finding ways of paying those bills. But-but there is an inner peace that comes from your doing as much as you can, as best as you can to change the world in whatever way that you are trying to do it. You know, whatever issue or issues with whatever perspective you have on it, you know, and that can change over time, people evolve and change as they learn more. So that, yeah, in terms of the inward peace thing, I resonate with that, that is still true. You know, I sleep pretty well at night. Like I think I, my conscience is pretty, pretty clear. I feel like I have done what I could, and that does make my life better. And I have met so many people, so many good people as a result of this work. That, you know, I never would have met otherwise. In terms of what Dan said, I really was, I was saying, yeah, that is, that is kind of a good example of what I was trying to say in terms of the kind of person Dan was. Dan, he saw the bigger picture, he understood that people come in to, in this case, the peace movement against the Vietnam War at different points in their life in terms of what they are able to do or what they are willing to do. And-and it all counts, right, all of it counts. You know, that that was very reflected in, you know, in some of what was that Dan was saying there as well as obviously, the, the kind of what I was saying in terms of how if you are willing to risk something that you believe in. That is, that is really the way of the world when it comes to how it changes, you know, good things do not happen you know, without risk, they really do not. And heart risk and hard work, no question about it. You know, the thing. Just going back to your other question, Phil, pretty much from my experience when I was with him, and working with him, and afterwards when I was not working with him for many years. That was, he was not like that so much for certainly during the Vietnam War, Phil was like, you know, "You should do more. You should, you should, you should get involved with what we were doing, that if you are really serious about stopping this war, you should go into a draft board and help us destroy draft files or remove them and burn them somewhere away from the draft board, so people do not get sent to Vietnam." He was he was, he challenged people, you know, I experienced that there in Danbury prison when he organized, what was for me my first long hunger strike, he organized a group of [inaudible] to go on a hunger strike that ended up going 34 days in connection with issues there in the prison, as well as, as the war. He kind of brought him the tiger cages in Vietnam where and then I guess women were tortured in the way they were just kept in these cells and so on, it was a big issue at the time. And he-he organized this fast around prison issues and connected to the tiger cages. Yeah, he was he was the he was a really determined leader to push as much as could be pushed and willing to take these kinds of risks. Dan took risks too, no question about it. He definitely was a risk taker, but he had that big, broader perspective. And, you know, the two of them together, were a team in a lot of ways, they brought their different strengths. And they, they, they have they did a lot back then then and it is still going on in terms of the impact that they have. SM: 1:21:26 You also [inaudible] put in here, just briefly, the-the fact that when the anti-war [inaudible] Ultra resistance was really happening, the connection between the Catholic Church and Pope John, because, you know, anybody who studied the Catholic Church, about the Second Vatican Council remembers Pope John and I, and of course he, you know, so-so they were deep religious Catholics, which both Americans were. They are living the Bible, they are living what the Pope is saying, as well, which is, and I can remember a quote here and yours, "Make the church relevant to 20th century consciousness," and written with respect to the war, racism and poverty. TG: 1:22:10 Right. SM: 1:22:10 And I mean, it is so you know, and of course, the drafting, you know the draft was the other reason because of connection and the greater crime and everything, but your book is, is brilliant in so many ways, because anyone who wants to learn about the (19)60s, the anti-war movement, the Catholic Church's involvement, you put everything together, and it makes you think. And it is just tremendous. I-I just, I am, my final questions are just a few general questions. What are your thoughts on the boomer generation, the generation you belong to? These are just commentaries? So, were you positive or negative about the generation? TG: 1:22:53 Well, you know, there was variation, it is not like you can say it is one thing, I mean, you had all kinds of, different kinds of people. I mean, I think in the sweep of history, that we, we played a very important role in trying, in helping to, to move this country in the world forward, you know, the (19)60s and into the 19)70s, that whole period was a key period in terms of-of, of changing this country. And, and it was, it was what was started then is continuing today. Take the women's movement, the women's movement, kind of the, I guess, it was called the third wave, the women's, the women's movement emerged in a lot of ways at first out of the Civil Rights Movement. You know, women who went south and risked their lives, fighting for the rights for Black people and equality for Black people. You know, eventually they came back to where they lived, their communities that were, you know, white, basically white and, and they had had their consciousness raised, and their willingness to speak up and take action, and they started doing it around sexism, and, you know, male dominance and disrespect and abuse and violence against women. And that movement, continu- that-that, you know, things have just continued since that time, there is always again these efforts that are made to move, go backwards and to strip away many of those gains that have been won. But there, there are a lot of them that are here to stay. I mean, there is clearly major changes in this country. So, you know, if you just take that issue, and then you can look at other issues, and it is similar. I think that our generation that I was part of and you were part of, we had an impact that continues. I really do believe that SM: 1:24:51 In your view, when did the (19)60s begin, and when did it end if it did end? TG: 1:24:58 Well, I mean for me, that began around (19)68. But that is really just for me personally. From my reading of history, it seems like it really began. I mean, you had the Civil Rights Movement, which started in the (19)50s, right? That that was really the, really the movement that got things going. That because so much came out of the Civil Rights Movement, including the peace movement, the women's movement, and so on. I guess if you are talking about a movement of the (19)60s, mid (19)60s, I would say after Johnson was elected as the peace candidate, and then within a few months, he basically becomes the war president. That that really, in terms of the antiwar movement, I would say that is when that began. That really, it did not really exist too much. There was some people, some of the some groups that like the War Resisters League and the Fellowship of Reconciliation that had been around for a long time, and they existed, but in terms of a mass movement that really was began to change society as a whole, I would say it was not until (19)65. SM: 1:26:13 All right, one of the things that you probably heard, too, that really, of the generation, the boomer generation of 74 million, only approximately 7 percent of that group was involved in any sort of activism. I think sometimes when people mention that they, it is kind of a negative on the boomer generation, but and in respect- TG: 1:26:38 Right. SM: 1:26:38 -I think it is a positive because if 7 percent and do what-what they did, that is pretty good. TG: 1:26:44 Yeah well, you know, I have read, there are people who have studied social movements very closely. And they I am forgetting some, some of the names of the people who, who did these studies, but what has kind of come out of that is that the that if 3 percent, or maybe if three and a half percent, but three, if three to three and a half percent of a population are willing to be active, to take action, to go to demonstrations, you know, to do various other things these days, it would have to do with the internet and, you know, social media, as well as demonstrations and actions, that if you have 3 percent of a society that is, that is really out there an active, that is what you need for significant social change to happen. So, if indeed, it was 7 percent, that is double that number. SM: 1:27:37 Yeah. TG: 1:27:37 So that is not so bad. SM: 1:27:39 No, I agree. There is so many reasons why the Vietnam War ended, but what the what, in your opinion, what was the number one reason why the war ended? TG: 1:27:49 Well, if you had, the number one reason. I would say, the GIS turning against the war, who were in Vietnam. I think that was the breaking point, you know, clearly the resistance of the Vietnamese to try to keep control of their own country. Without that, of course, things would have ended up very different, but-but certainly from the standpoint of, of the United States, it was the GI resistance that made a huge difference. Everything began to change when-when that happened. Yeah, that is what I would say. SM: 1:28:34 The Vietnam memorial. Have you been there? TG: 1:28:37 I have been yeah. SM: 1:28:38 Yeah, well I know I moved back from California in (19)83. The first place I went to was the memorial, took the train down from Philly but Jan Scruggs founded the, along with some other major Vietnam veterans, the heal- and the Vietnam Memorial, and he wrote a book called The Healing of a Nation. And what role do you think that wall has done to heal the nation? I know it is healed a lot of the veterans and the families of those who died. I mean, I see it every year when I go down there. [inaudible] tremendous job, because Vietnam veterans are treated so poorly when they return home. And in (19)82, that was a mark, demarcation right there because that now there was a good feeling that they had served. Your thoughts on the importance of the wall and healing this nation from this war? TG: 1:29:36 I honestly could not really answer that with any real knowledge. I know about the wall. You know, my sense is that the way it was done with listing all of the names of everybody who died, rather than, you know, what can often be done for these kinds of things, you know, putting a general on a horse or a general, you know, in a military vehicle or just a general up on a on a statue and, you know, that kind of a memorial or a monument. That is, that is, you know, that is a very different kind of a monument. So having all the names of everybody who died, is- was-was a was a good thing to bring home, helped to bring home the reality of war and what it does, what it does for people, [inaudible] has really major impacts on lots and lots of [inaudible]. [crosstalk] I would think that has something to do with it to the extent what you are saying is true, which I just do not know. I would think that is why. SM: 1:30:51 Right. I, this is a criticism I heard from those who were against the anti-war movement in any of the activists in that era. How would you respond to the- this person's opinion, they are troublemakers who only care about their but their beliefs, not the beliefs of others? They are selfish and not selfless. Again, they only see a crisis from their own point of view. And these are critics of those people who are activists who challenge the system. And I quote this as well, that many times when people are hiring people today in the world of work, they want predictable people as opposed to unpredictable people. I feel activists are unpredictable, and they are the best people. Your thoughts on that? Yeah, the people that are a little different than are willing to challenge the system. And this mentality that is still out there. I mean, when Governor Rhodes was in charge of the people in at Kent State back in (19)70, you heard what he talked about, the brown shirts, the worst of our society. And of course, he you know, it was ridiculous. But just your thoughts on that? TG: 1:32:13 Well, there were, they were definitely a minority. There were people in, I mean, it is like this for any movement, really. There were people in the peace movement, who were more frankly into it, for not the best reasons. And who, as a result, eventually, they dropped out of it, because they really should not have been there in the first place maybe or they realized that they should move on. But that, for the vast majority of people, certainly my experiences, involvement came from, from a really good place. It came out of, I mean in some cases it came just out of real personal fear of being killed or losing your leg or your eyes or being maimed for life or going crazy from being sent to war. And that is totally understandable and legitimate. But I would, I would, I would certainly say that my experience back then, and since then, is it in general, most people who get involved in these kinds of movements, you know, they are doing it for the right reason. If-if they end up, you know, kind of going off and not being such, not being the kind of people, they should be, again, it might have something to do with the leadership of these movements. That that has to be looked at. You know, you look at today, I mean, you compare Donald Trump to Joe Biden, right. And Joe Biden's really not my guy. I supported Bernie Sanders, both in (20)16 and (20)20. Although I did actually, I did a 32 day, they asked a hunger strike to defeat Trump. I did not eat for 32 days in the month October- SM: 1:34:08 Wow. TG: 1:34:08 -last year, because I wanted to Biden to win. But you look at the difference in terms of, you know, Trump, and like the Republicans in Congress and the way so many of them are, I mean, jeez. I do not I think there is a real difference in kind of truthfulness, and the general quality of people's lives between the Republicans and the Democrats and the, and some of the progressive independents like Bernie Sanders who work with the Democrats. You know, there is, that is, you know, definitely there is Democrats who take a lot of money from, you know, big corporations, from the fossil fuel industry. And you know, I do not agree with some of that kind of an approach but in general, when it comes to movements, when it comes to people active in essentially kind of progressive movements trying to advance to a different kind of society, my experience is that you meet an awful lot of good people when you are in those movements. Not-not perfect people, but good people, good hearted people who are, who are trying, as best they can. And again, you know, I will come back to some of what I said earlier that it is our res- those of us who, you know, play leadership roles in those movements, it is our responsibility to do everything we can to have the movements, that have the organizations that are part of, that makeup those movements, that are key to those movements, be about a very different way of interacting with one another, a very different way of living our lives, of really taking building of community seriously, helping people to-to become stronger, and to develop good leadership skills themselves. You know, that-that, and we cannot be into just, you know, following individual leaders, we need to be about the importance of what is called group centered leadership. I talk about that in this new book of mine, that-that is really critical that, that if you are building an organization, you are building a movement that is about social change, if you do not have an internal culture that is all about, you know, working together, and not just putting up one person or a few people as, as the leaders, that that is this conscious process of a continual working together, growing together, developing together, trying to build that kind of a culture for the movement, if that does not happen, you know, sooner or later, things are going to go the wrong way. But they do not have to. I really think if we are conscious about that issue, that is, that is what I really tried to hit away at one of the key things in this second book of mine, then I think we, then I really do believe we can change the world. I really do. SM: 1:37:00 I have two final questions, and then we are done. Who are the heroes of the (19)60s and early (19)70s? And who are the villains of the (19)60s and early (19)70s? TG: 1:37:10 Well, the villains are easier. Certainly, Richard Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover, off the top of my head that-that is those would be the two ones I would first think of in terms of villains definitely. LBJ, you know, certainly he, he was kind of a mixed bag, he did some good things in terms of support for the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and so on. But the war, he was totally taken in and very problematic. In terms of the heroes, I mean, again, clearly the two Berrigan brothers and you know, many other people who were active in that movement. Dave Dellinger, I think of Dave Dellinger, who was a good friend. He was a wonderful human being and wonderful nonviolent leader. Gosh, who else? I mean, there is your they are all there were all those different movements, the women's movement, right. I do not know who were some of the leaders in the women's movement, but in that movement, the American Indian Movement that you mentioned, Russell Banks, Dennis Means, Bella Cortes. Yeah, you had a lot of a lot of different leaders from the (19)60s. In terms of the peace movement, I guess I really would see Dave Dellinger here as being a really, really important in terms of what he was about what he stood for. And then of course, you know, Phil and Dan Berrigan, they-they were standouts. SM: 1:38:59 My last question is because you have been obviously most of your life an activist and organizer. And, but what frustrates you the most? Because you have been a lifelong activist and-and what inspires you the most from being that lifelong activist? TG: 1:39:21 Well, you know, I guess the frustrating thing is that so many so many days, it feels like everything is just going too slowly. You know, especially now with the climate crisis and how urgent that issue is. And there is a there is a time there is a, there is a deadline for that. I do not think we have passed it yet, but we are getting close to the tipping points, tipping points that could just lead to really horrific societal upheaval and disillusion and so on. So especially when it comes to that issue, the slowness with which change happens. That is very frustrating. I do know, one of the things that keeps me hopeful is that I do know that history does show that, you know, you have a, history usually moves through a process of social change happens, where, you know, for a long time, kind of under the surface, it seems like not much is happening, but things are happening. And then all of a sudden, you know, you never know exactly what is, what leads to it, but all of a sudden, things can change. And you can you have this kind of like a political tipping point moment, and all of a sudden, is this kind of, it is this dynamic that takes over. And that is where you can have, you know, revolutions. Sometimes a good one, sometimes they degenerate, frankly. So that, again, those are lessons we need to learn how to how to make sure that any major changes that happens stick and do not degenerate. But yeah, so and in terms of so that, so your question was about frustrations. The other was what inspires me, what inspires me is right now the young people who are coming forward, I was just on a call this morning. With two young people, I think they were both in their 20s, they are both in their 20s. We had a wonderful conversation about you know, how we can be more effective in the organizing work that we are doing. You know, there are an awful lot of really dedicated sharp young people who have learned how to work together a lot of different races and cultures involved in this kind of youth upsurge that I see that, that is definitely inspiring. You know, without-without young people being involved, it is very hard to bring about change but when young people are involved, a lot of things can change and actually much more quickly. SM: 1:41:57 Very good. Ted, I want to thank you very much for this interview. I am going to turn the tape off now and then I will give you some final comments. Hold on a second. TG: 1:42:05 Okay. SM: 1:42:05 Hold on. That was a long one. I just, make sure I got the, the recording just ended but I hit the, it is still recording here. I do not know why so I hit the stop. Still recording. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ted Glick IIIF Item Metadata UUID f1c3eba1-d69a-4b12-ae60-ce9830a133d1 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/aff89c0c95737b1adf2f682f414abc68.jpeg bc9a3cc83f52724fa88bf04a6c0bf8de https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a6d855e2590026559808ffa0702c7171.mp3 8159f547db0b32427eff6745ceaff089 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed John Cleary Biographical Text John Cleary, a native of Scotia, NY, was a student at Kent State University when he was shot in the chest by the National Guardsman. After his recovery, Cleary received his Bachelor's Degree in Architecture from Kent State University and practiced in Pittsburg, PA until his retirement. Date of Interview 2022-01-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:20:39 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords "Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Kent State shooting; Protest; Activism; Architectural degree; College campus; College education; Life magazine. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: John Cleary Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 26 January 2022 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 All right, we are all set. I can put it on? Okay, I am going to put you on... All right. Again, John, thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview. I always start out the interviews with a question about your early years. Could you, could you describe your growing up years, where you were born, what kind of a neighborhood you came from, what your parents did for a living, kind of your hometown environment during your elementary and secondary school years? JC: 00:34 Sure. I actually grew up in a very rural area in upstate New York, near Schenectady, Albany. The actual name of the town was Scotia. And we actually live probably about five to six miles outside of Scotia. So we were really in a very rural area. My parents had a small Cape Cod house on probably about three acres of land. Actually, they were right near kind of an intersection. And on the one corner, the intersection was Centre Glenville Methodist Church which we went to, we attended. And so it was basically within walking distance of our house, even though we were in a rural area. And then on the other side of the intersection was Glendale Elementary School, where I basically went to, you know, first through sixth, you know, I spent, I was very much of an outdoor person and my younger years, spent a lot. I was involved in scouting quite a bit. And so we did a lot of camping trips and fishing trips. And I just really enjoyed that aspect of it. Trying to think here, oh and then we you know, these were the days when you kind of had pickup baseball games, no, no adults involved. Everyone grabbed their mitts and a baseball. And since we were within walking distance to the elementary school, there was a ball field in the back. And I just remember in spring and summer, after school, going over there and some of the kids did not have gloves. So when you, when you were in the outfield, and you got your turn at bat, you just dropped your glove on the ground where it was, and then people would run out and they would share your gloves but that was just kind of our upbringing. Probably in about fifth or sixth grade, I really got interested in skiing. And my parents, there was a golf course, probably within a 30 minutes’ drive of our house where they set up a rope tow in the winter. And so I would go over there, they dropped me off at eight in the morning and pick me up at five and I skied all day and have a great- -great time of it. Later, when I got into high school, we used to have a ski club and my parents had dropped me off. We would get a bus at like six in the morning and drive two to three hours. You know we were at the foothills of the Adirondacks and close to Vermont. And so we would ski a different resort every Saturday. And gosh I remember I think this is like, you know, it was not a school bus, it was pretty nice Coach bus and I think that the cost of the bus and the lift ticket was like $7. SM: 03:33 Wow. It is a little different today [laughs]. JC: 03:51 No, it is different today could not even get a, probably could not even get a hamburger and a coke for that. SM: 04:29 [laughs] That is true, when you were a kid were you a Pittsburgh pirate fan? JC: 04:34 Well I grew up in upstate New York so. SM: 04:36 Okay, who was your, who your favorite players? JC: 04:42 You know what I did not really follow the-the you know, well I followed the Yankees and gosh, you were going to, you were going to try to- there was of course Mickey Mantle, Whitey Ford. There were you know some of the other major players. My dad was a huge New York Giants fan. So I remember on Sunday afternoons, sitting in the living room and watching football with my dad. SM: 05:13 Yeah. I am a big Giants fan. I grew up in Ithaca and Cortland. So that is, that Giant's country. JC: 05:20 Yeah, there you go. SM: 05:21 Yeah. When you were, how did your parents and your young peer friends feel about the issues in the news that were taking place during those early years, particularly in the early (19)60s, their thoughts on, you know, at the dinner table when you were with your parents or your, really your friends in school. Did you ever talk about the-the war in Vietnam, the civil rights movement and some of the other movements that were taking place at that time, some for the first time? JC: 05:53 Well, I mean, I have to be honest here and say that really, I was not really political at all, I was kind of in my own little bubble in upstate New York. And basically, like I said, I was very much involved with the doing things outdoors and did not watch hardly any TV, did not watch or read any, any papers per se. We did not really talk politics at the dinner table. Usually, it was about the day's events, or, you know, when I say day's events, meaning what I had done, or what my parents had done, or you know, those-those types of issues. We really did not talk politics at all in our family. SM: 06:48 Did-did you ever, just as just as you now, this is not talking about, did you ever feel that you were something- this was way before college- that your generation was so different than any other generation? Because it was the biggest generation in history, because you were one of the children of the world war two generation- 74 million. And it seemed like everything in the news in the late (19)40s, (19)50s and (19)60s was all about these young boomers. Did you ever think about the, being a part of that generation that seems to be in the news every minute? JC: 07:26 To be honest, I really did not and, and, you know, probably in my own naïveté you know, I was just kind of cruising along with my, you know, friends that I hung out with and did things and did not really look at the overall picture nationwide, what was going on. It really was not until I went to Kent that I really began to be exposed to anything going on outside our little community. You know, we had one, one TV in the house. And basically, you know, we were watching Bonanza and Disney show. I do think my parents watched the nightly news. But, you know, I certainly was not involved in that. So, I did not really kind of piece together any kind of an overall picture what my generation was doing or, you know, I obviously had some brushes with the Vietnam War, especially. And then this was really more, maybe my senior year or my freshman at Kent, when they had the draft. I fortunately got a high number. And so, I really did not have to worry about the draft, but I did have some high school friends, especially those that I hung around with, who got low numbers, and one, one, one went into the Navy, and the other one enlisted in the Air Force. So, they-they were basically, you know, avoiding having to go into the army. SM: 09:32 Right. Now, why did you pick Kent State? JC: 09:39 Well, I was vacillating my senior years to what I wanted to major in and I started it started to gel that I thought architecture might be the right direction for me and at one time thought about going into the medical field to become a doctor. But the more I thought about it, the more I thought that I was a little more of a creative person. And so I thought architecture would be the better route for me. And my dad worked, it was like, probably the only, it was the major employer in the area, General Electric. And he had a coworker, a friend of his, whose son went to Kent, and majored in architecture. And so, my dad said, "Hey, look, my, you know, my son, John is thinking about going into architecture and I know your son is going to Kent, would you mind if he came over and just kind of looked at what, what your son is doing at Kent?" And so we went over and visited them. And of course, he pulls out these presentation boards that he had done, and some models that he had done. And I was kind of blown away. I said, this is really cool stuff. And, you know, I loved what he what he was doing and what he was involved in. So, we-we decided to go out in the spring and check out Kent. I had looked at Syracuse University, which is the you know, it still is- it was pretty expensive, even for somebody who lived in the state. And Syracuse is a little more of an urban campus. And when I went to Kent, and we went for a weekend because a little bit of a drive, and they had an orientation, where they gave you a tour of the campus. And I just remember feeling really comfortable. And you know, on, I liked the size of the campus, I liked the layout of the campus, it was more spread out and just had a really nice feel for it, and that was really what would push me to go there. SM: 12:15 Now I know that I, I am from Ithaca and Cornell has a really good architecture program too. I believe their program was five years. Was your- a five year program? Or was it four? JC: 12:26 Yeah. It actually was, it was a five year program. SM: 12:29 Yep. And I thought that is pretty common now. And that is a pretty, it is a really good program to get into. It is sometimes very difficult to get into too. JC: 12:39 Yeah, I think we thought maybe Cornell might be out of reach for me. I mean, I was a fairly good school student in high school, but I was not outstanding. SM: 12:49 Now, when you went to Kent State University, what was your first impression? So that first year you were there, what kind of an environment was it? Was it one with a lot of activism going on? Was there good relationships between the community and the students? What kind of a feel did you get beyond the classroom? JC: 13:10 Well, the interesting thing is, I kind of felt this almost tidal wave of change, which I felt happened the year that I was a freshman. Because when I when I first arrived on campus as a freshman, you know, people were still kind of dressing up to go to classes. You saw boys with ties and women in, you know, skirts and dresses, and we have RAS. And they had like a kind of a freshman orientation. And we were supposed to wear these goofy hats called thinks. So that upperclassmen could pick on you, you know, it was kind of still that kind of (19)60s type of mentality. That kind of began to fall by the wayside in the winter. And by spring, I mean, really, everyone was dressing extremely casually, jeanies, hair was getting longer, you know, just really saw a tremendous change in environment there. I guess the other point I was going to make was because architecture is a little bit of a difficult program, you-you really needed to have study groups to kind of help each other along with homework and classroom assignments. So, you know, I immediately began to bond with about maybe five or six freshmen architectural students. You know, we would study together, we worked together on projects. So, you know, the friendships really began to form fairly early. And that was kind of specific to my architectural programs. I guess I like to say, you know, I probably missed some great times down on Water Street and the bars that first year- SM: 15:21 Right. JC: 15:22 -because I was I was a little bit too concerned about my grades and everything. SM: 15:28 Right. JC: 15:30 But and I suppose I was not a drinking age yet then either. But either way, I did not really discover much of the downtown life until spring. SM: 15:42 Yeah, what year you begin there? JC: 15:48 (19)69. SM: 15:49 (19)69. You know (19)69, you know, I was just, I just had an interview with another person and who was there at that time. And the political environment of about Kent State from afar was that it, you know, Ohio University and Ohio State, were the two that were more very activist oriented with a lot of protests and everything, did not realize how many protests took place at Kent State. And-and how big these Students for Democratic Society was on the campus, who were against the war. Did you see any friction between the students at that time between those who were against the war and those who were for it? JC: 16:35 I do remember. I mean, let us, let us fast forward to the spring. I do not really do not really remember any of that in the fall or the winter. I am not saying that it was not there. But I do not remember seeing any of it. And then in the spring, there were some more outdoor rallies. And I, you know, I began to see these anti-war protests. And the school of architecture was located on the top floor of Taylor Hall. So we oversaw the campus, so when there were rallies and you know, things going on-on the commons, we would overlook that, and we would see it, and we would hear it. But I will be honest with you, I did not really attend any, any of those rallies, but I was witness to them. I did not really see any clashes between regular students and activists, but I did witness the spring rallies that were going on-on campus. SM: 17:59 Did you get a feeling there at the time that there was a tension within the community toward the students? That is the city, the city of Kent, the people who were not students? JC: 18:12 Well, I have to be careful here. Because, you know, obviously, you know, we read it, you know, we have read things and you know, you know, I have read a lot about how the townspeople resented the students, and were concerned about the students. But for me, personally, I did not spend a lot of time in town. Like I said, I did not really discover Water Street or Main Street until the spring. So, I cannot honestly say that, that that myself personally, that I saw any of that. SM: 18:52 Leading up to that, the terrible tragedy that happened on the fourth of May (19)70. Can you describe that day? What, how that opened? What you were doing in the day itself? And then sadly, how you were in the line of fire? JC: 19:12 Sure. I do not know if you want me to or not, but I, I can kind of go over the entire weekend, if you want. SM: 19:21 I would like that because I have got five interviews I have done now. And I- what is important, John, is I just want people who are not alive today. These are going to be for research and scholarships for students, faculty and national scholars down the road. And in Kent, what happened at Kent State is the, one of the historic events of the (19)60s, no question, in fact, in American history, in my view. If you want to go over what happened maybe from April 30th when Nixon announced his speech or about going into Cambodia? JC: 19:56 Yeah, what I was going to do is pick it up from Friday. Because, you know, things really changed for me starting on-on Friday. I was once again haven't really [audio cuts]. SM: 20:23 Still there? Whoops. Okay, we are all set, we are back. JC: 20:48 I was talking about Sunday. And there was really kind of a real tension that you could feel between the students and the military on campus. When you walked around campus, there was military presence everywhere. And I think for a lot of the antiwar students and the activists, you know, this, this was a really upsetting thing, to-to have this strong military presence on their campus. And so everywhere you went on Sunday, there were National Guard, at campus buildings, parking lots, driving up and down the streets. It was really kind of a little disconcerting. And right around dusk, there was a curfew that went into place. And basically, what they told us was that no groups of students more than three could be out at any one time. And we typically ate dinner a little bit later, because we would be doing work or doing some stuff up at Taylor Hall. So when we were done with dinner, and trying to walk back across an open area to our dorms, they were threatening to tear gas us because there was like three or four of us. So we had to break into smaller groups. And I know there were some groups that came out at the dining hall later, after we did, that were tear gassed. And probably around eight in the evening or so there was an attempt to have some sort of a rally on Commons. Helicopters appeared, with search lights and bull horns. And the group was tear gassed. The tear gas drifted back into our dorm. And so, we-we ran out of the building, because we could not breathe. And the Guardsmen who were deployed outside, forced us back into the building. They did not want to hear any of our excuses. They said there was a curfew, we had to stay in the building. So, we finally went into the study lounges and kind of hunkered down, because they were not as bad with the tear gas. And we really did not get much sleep that night. There were helicopters hovering all over campus that were loud. They were kind of harassing anyone that was outside. So you know, it was a pretty tense night. And it was a long night. Like I said, we did not get much sleep. So then, Monday, classes were still in session. So that Monday morning, I went to, I believe it was my English class. And the-the building entrance had soldiers on each side of it. And our professor said, you know, that there was probably going to be a rally at noon and it was our decision whether we should attend it or not. And pretty much everywhere I went that morning, the talk was that there was going to be a noon rally. So when I was done with my English class, and I decided that I would borrow my roommate's camera, he had a little instamatic. I enjoyed photography but unfortunately at that point, I did not have my camera with me. So, I borrowed his camera and thought, well, I am going to go to the rally more out of curiosity to see what was going to happen, than really, to support any cause one way or the other. And so I did go to the, to the rally, I kind of stood off to the side. I watched it as it grew in size, I really felt there was kind of a hardcore group that were right around the victory bale of maybe 100 to 200 students that were really actively protesting. And there were probably a couple 1000 there around that were just kind of watching similar to what I was doing. Some of them were going to their classes. The, the commons area is kind of in the middle of campus. And it is really a crossroads for anyone going to class. So it is a natural point where people are going to be walking through to get to maybe the union or for-for lunch, or to, to go to class. So, you know, I saw a Jeep come out with a bullhorn. And they ordered everyone to disperse and said, this was an illegal rally, and you were ordered to disperse, which pretty much everyone ignored. And so they, there was a line of guardsmen that were down, kind of almost guarding the burned out ROTC building, which was at the end of the commons, kind of sitting there in ruins. And so they, they started to move out, the guardsmen moved out on file. There were two companies. I could be incorrect, I believe it was A and C. And one, one went to the right of Taylor Hall, and one went to the left of Taylor Hall. And they started to push students back with tear gas, firing tear gas into the students. Some of the students were able to pick up the tear gas and throw it back at the guardsmen. So you can kind of see this back and forth between the guardsmen and the students with the tear gas. I did take some pictures of the guardsmen as they walked up. I was to, as you face Taylor Hall, I was more towards the left hand side, near the pagoda. And the National Guards kind of walked by me, I was fairly close to them. You know, I felt these are professional soldiers. And I did not feel threatened by them. And I felt as long as I behaved myself and did not do anything, that there should be no issue with them. And so they did go by me. And I took some pictures as I went by. They went down to, there was a parking lot in front of Taylor Hall. And they ended up in a practice football field, which is no longer there. And at the soccer or football field, well, I do not remember exactly, there were some chain-link fencing on two sides of it. So they were kind of hemmed in just a little bit, and they kind of regrouped there and kind of huddled together. And the students, by that time had been pushed down into the parking lot. And there was a small group that were still pretty active. Kind of yelling obscenities at them. There might have been a few rocks that were thrown, but at the distance they were, they certainly were not reaching the guardsmen. At one point the guardsmen did kneel and aim their weapons into the crowd. And did not really discourage any of the protesters. And then at some point, the-the guardsmen kind of re huddled together, it felt like they were discussing what they were going to do next. And then they reformed into a line and begin to walk back up this hill towards the pagoda. And to what I was thinking, that they were going to go back over, they called it Blanket Hill, and to the, to the commons. And there, there was kind of a feeling, I think, at that point, that things were wrapping up. And I do know that some of the students were beginning to leave, heading to their classes. And I was going to go into Taylor Hall, I had a design class that afternoon, and I was going to go in and get ready for my class. And so, I walked up to the-the entrance of Taylor Hall, and there is a metal sculpture there. And I was standing next to the metal sculpture, and I thought to myself, I am going to get one more picture of them right before they get over the crest of the hill. So I stood there. And I was with this instamatic and I had to rewind the camera so that I could get to the next shot. So, I was rewinding, you know, the camera, getting it ready to take a shot and they-they reached the crest of the hill, and I was getting the camera ready to raise up. And suddenly, they just turned and fired. And without any warning. And it just seemed like there was this instantaneous movement in unison, where the soldiers all turned and fired. And I believe they were firing more towards the parking lot. But I happened to be in their line of fire. And I do kind of, before I was hit, I do kind of remember, Joe Lewis was in front of me, maybe by 50 or 75 feet, not a lot. I do not think there was anyone else. I do not think there was anyone else in front of us other than the two of us, because really, the bulk of the people were either off to the side or behind me. And I do remember thinking, he was giving them the finger, you know, he was, he was flicking them off. And seconds later, they-they fired, and I got hit in the chest. I like to say, it is like, I felt like I got hit in the chest with a sledge hammer. I dropped to the ground. And I really do not have any more recollection of what happened at that point. I do remember kind of coming to in the hospital. And they were, they were doing triage at the time. And I was out in a corridor, and I was in a fair amount of pain. And my concern was that I would be forgotten. And I remember kind of panicking a little bit. Because, do they know that I am out here in this corridor? And finally, a couple of nurses came out and the first thing they wanted to know was, "Do you have your parents phone number, do you have some contact numbers?" And it is like, "Why aren't you helping me?" and they are, you know, they are, "Well, you are going to go in shortly to see the doctor but we need to be able to contact your parents." So I remember reeling off a bunch of phone numbers, home phone number and office phone numbers, and they finally wheeled me in to see a doctor. And I think I almost immediately went into surgery. And the next thing I remember, was in a hospital room with Dean Taylor and Joe Lewis as, as roommates. SM: 35:18 Wow-wow. I know, the picture of, on Life magazine is a picture of you, I believe with- JC: 35:27 [inaudible] SM: 35:27 -students around you. And I had that magazine along with the one from, I think, Newsweek, hanging in my office for many years. I was reading about that particular picture. And it is my understanding that students were in a circle around you were kind of protecting you. And they were holding hands. So no further harm could come to you. JC: 35:54 Yeah, and I- the interesting thing is, like I said, I do not have any recollection after the point that I was shot. And I was not aware of that. And Howard Ruffner took that picture. I am sure you are aware of that. And about two years ago, Howard Ruffner was in Kent to promote a new book that he had written. And basically, it was a series of photographs taken on that day. And it was right before the 50th anniversary, before COVID had hit. And so I decided, well, this is be a great opportunity to see Howard because he lives in California. And so, we certainly do not have many opportunities to get together. So I went up to Kent, and we had a reunion of sorts. Unfortunately, the media kind of made a little bigger deal about it than I thought they would, but they did. But he was showing me pictures. And he had taken a picture of the students circled around me holding hands. And that really hit me, that was a very impactful picture. And in some respects, I liked that picture better than the one he took of me. Because it really shows, you know, at that point, they did not know if the guards were coming back or not. And they were putting their life kind of on the line to protect me. And not only that, but the students that were working on me, Joe Kolum, and some others, you know, really saved, I think, saved my life. So I am really in a debt of gratitude to them for doing that. SM: 38:10 I know, when I interviewed Joe, he said that when he was put in the ambulance, you were right by his side, in the same ambulance. JC: 38:20 That very well could be I like I said, I just do not remember the ambulance ride at all. SM: 38:27 Now, how long did it take you to recuperate from this serious injury so that you can get back to school? JC: 38:33 I was in hospital for about two weeks. I was intensive care for about a week. There was, there was some concern early on about infection and some other issues. Because of the extent of the injuries, but you know, you are young. I was 19 I think at the time, 18 or 19. So I did, was able to bounce back and after two weeks what they kind of quietly got me to the airport. I have to tell you this. I guess it is an amusing story. But when-when I was at Kent as a freshman, I bought a car there and it was an old car, Chrysler, 1957 Chrysler. It was like a limousine this thing was a boat. And after I was shot, my parents flew out and they were able to use my car and because it had Ohio plates on it, pretty much could go anywhere and not be bothered by the press because they did not know who they were. And I flew home two weeks later, and they drove my car home with all my belongings. And when they got to the driveway of our house, the power steering pump caught on fire. And the car, there were flames coming out of the hood. And they flung open the door and threw all my belongings on the lawn. And fortunately, the car did not. It was just a small fire and they were able to put it out. But my parents loved to tell the story how every belonging I had was thrown out on the front lawn. SM: 40:48 Wow. And now, of course, classes are canceled. And you did you start back in the fall? JC: 40:57 Yeah, I flew home. I flew home about two weeks later, and recuperated that summer. And the professors were really great. And they did it for everybody, not just me. They sent us homework assignments, they sent us classwork, and we are able to complete our semester. You know, this is before the internet and emails, everything was done through the mail, you know, US Postal Service. And they would mail me assignments, and they and they did not cut me any slack either. And I did the work and got grades for it. So I was able to complete my freshman year. And then the following fall, you know, I went back to Kent. SM: 41:59 Now, and you got your degree in five years. JC: 42:01 I did. SM: 42:02 And, and well, how has your career been? Yeah, you, and how did you end up in Pittsburgh? JC: 42:12 Well, my-my wife was originally from Pittsburgh. And when we graduated from Kent. It was (19)74. And the economy was not doing really good right then. And jobs are really scarce. And trying to go back to upstate New York, there was just absolutely nothing there. Like I said, I was in more of a rural community, small town. And really, for architecture, you need a bigger, you [inaudible] you need more of an urban town. So, we had looked at Cleveland, that was one of our thoughts. And we also looked at Pittsburgh, and I liked the lay of the land of Pittsburgh, it was a little more mountainous, and had the hills and the rivers. And it reminded me a little more of upstate New York. So we ended, up I got a job in Pittsburgh, it was touch and go. If I had not gotten a job in Pittsburgh, we probably would have ended up in Cleveland. But I did get a job in Pittsburgh and that is where we, where we ended up. SM: 43:37 Now, after the, what I have also noticed about coming to the remembrance events over the past month, not the last two years, obviously. But last, over the 50 year period, is the camaraderie between those who are wounded and the families of those who died. I know there are a lot of issues after the, after the initially because I know there was a, there was a trial for some of the activists and so forth. But how did who was responsible for the camaraderie between the nine that were wounded and the families of the four that were killed? JC: 44:15 Well, I think a lot of that had to do with the May Force Task Group. And, you know, I will be honest with you, I was starting out in my career and work was tough. And I really did not attend the trials the way that I should have. And I had a family that I had to support. And so, I could not really take the time to go up to Cleveland for the civil trials. So I was really only there when-when I had to be and so I really did not bond with the wounded students and the families until a few, quite a few years later, maybe 10 years later. My, believe it or not, my son was born on May 4th. SM: 45:13 Oh my God. JC: 45:13 And obviously that was not planned. And it just happened that way. And so I have a pretty strong faith. And I felt like God was telling me something, you know, you cannot, you cannot bury this, you cannot pretend it did not happen to you. You cannot put it behind you. It is something that you need to confront. So I started going back to the commemorations and the May Fourth Task Force would put on a breakfast on those mornings on May 4th, and at those breakfasts would be the other wounded students and family members. And so it just began a process of getting to know people casually at first, just sitting there and having breakfast with them, and spending a little time with their family and bringing my family and Tom Grace and Alan Canfora reached out to me. And both Tom and Alan are big baseball fans. And so I guess in Buffalo, where Thomas from, the Pittsburgh Pirates had a [inaudible] team. So we did, both Tom and Alan came down one time. And we went to a pirate’s game. [crosstalk] So yeah, we had a great time. And so, you know, it just began a process of getting to know one another. And I have tried, in the last four or five years since I have been retired, to try to reach out and get to know, some of the wounded students a little better. About two years, two and a half years ago, my wife and I were out. And we did a Northwest trip to Seattle and Portland. And Joe lives out there. And so we made a point to swing by and have lunch with Joe and his wife, got to see where Joe lived. And, you know, that was meaningful for us. And Tom and I have gotten together several times. And so it is just a matter of and-and Dean Kahler. We, about a year ago, Joe was traveling through Kent, he was actually moving one of his sons back to Oregon. And the three of us got together at a local, I cannot even remember if it was a Ponderosa or what it was, but it was a lunch place. And, you know, we commented on it was, you know, these were the three of us that were hospital roommates. And it was kind of nice to get together without the, all the noise and attention that May 4th typically brings. So the times that we get together when we can kind of be out of the limelight, and just be ourselves- SM: 48:57 Yep. JC: 48:57 -I think has gone a long way to establishing some, hopefully some long-term relationships. SM: 49:08 And that is very important, that whole issue of healing. One of the questions I have asked him a lot of the people that I have interviewed are dealing with the Vietnam War, and healing from that war and the divisions it caused in America. And, and Jan Scruggs wrote a book and I think it can apply to any kind of a tragedy, To Heal a Nation. And the basic premise behind the building of the Wall in (19)82 was to heal the families who lost loved ones in that war and not to make it a political statement, but to remember those who lost their lives, and so that they will never be forgotten number one, and then also provide healing within the family and the families of the veterans, but also to pay respects to those who fought in that war and came home and were treated so poorly by America upon their return. So, the one thing about healing, do you use have do you, it is a word that sometimes is overused. But do you have still any issues with healing from this tragedy? JC: 50:17 What I have found is going up to the commemorations I, I used to always kind of hang in the back and you know, kind of be anonymous in and not really want to, you know, participate. But the last five years or so I have kind of taken on the tact that, you know, we, you know, our numbers are dwindling, and we need to respect those that were slain on that day, and the other wounded students, and, you know, remember them. And walking around the parking lot during commemoration right before them, where the markers are where the students were slain. People have come to me that maybe they recognize me, or, you know, they might just say, "Were you there?" You know, obviously, I am in my 70s, I look the part, you know, "Where were you on May 4th?" And when I share my story, I find that there are a lot of people out there that were there that day that are hurting, and they, they need to share their story. And so, I find that many a time when I am out there talking to people who were there, they were filling in the blanks for me, when I was unconscious, and when I did not witness what they witnessed the hurt and the pain, that they went through seeing the carnage and seeing the bodies on the ground. You know, I was lucky in that I did not witness that. But they did. And I think it becomes a healing process for all of us, when we talk about it together, and we have these shared experiences of being there. Each of our stories are different. And yet they are kind of weaved together to make this one large picture. SM: 52:45 Very-very well said, I know that Alan, before he passed, a couple of years before he passed, he was adamant and brought in some great programs. He was always a leader, he was always he was always lead taking the lead. And you know, and making sure because it was all about the four that died and those that are wounded. He was all about them. And, and he did a tremendous job. But he but he and several others wanted to find out who, who gave the order to do the shooting. This is the whole issue. And they brought that man there that they said they think they had him on tape. And I know that Alan was up there in the front. And there were a couple other guests there too, who were, you know, supporting that concept that whoever gave the order. And-and so do you still feel that we need to find out who did it? I mean, we know that who that they were shot my guardsmen, but who gave the order? JC: 53:42 Well, I think there is some frustration out there. Because people are looking for justice. And they certainly do not feel that justice was served here. And yeah, it would be great to find out who gave the order. And it would also be great to maybe hold some of the guardsmen that shot indiscriminately into the crowd to make them accountable. But there is so much time that is gone by, you know, we are beyond the 50-year mark, that I am just [inaudible] that that we are never really going to get to the bottom of that. And it is just going to be something that is always going to be a question mark out there. And unfortunately, I do not think there is ever going to be an answer. You know, everyone kind of has this hope that there will be some guardsmen on their deathbed that is going to share the some story about what actually happened. But short of that, I do not think we are going to really get to the bottom of what actually happened. SM: 54:59 You were there. And you know some of the things that took place, [inaudible] you read the student newspapers, at Kent state the following year when school started again. When you look at the whole that whole period from the 30th of April till when Nixon gave the speech at 9pm, until the killings and the wounding, on the fourth. Who- is that, that is, that is part of our history, is-is an important part of our history. When you look at the (19)60s, what other big major events affected your life? Even before Kent State, and I say, when you look at the, when boomers were young, there was one word that kept coming up over and over again, in my mind, assassination, assassination, bullets, killing. What is the say about our democracy? We lose a President of the United States in (19)63. That is when [crosstalk]. Yes, go ahead. JC: 56:04 Yeah. I think that everyone kind of remembers John F. Kennedy's assassination. I think I was a little too young to totally understand the implications of what had happened, but I do remember my parents being a little fearful, and that the TV was on constantly with the funeral, and all the other proceedings going on. SM: 56:36 And then only- JC: 56:39 The only other highlight, and I am sorry, go ahead Stephen. SM: 56:42 I was just going to say that the course five years later, his brother gets assassinated, as well as the Martin Luther King. And when- JC: 56:49 Yep. SM: 56:49 -when you look at the Jackson State issue, which is important because Kent State students in the group have done a tremendous job of making sure that those who lost their lives there at Jackson State 10 days later are, there was camaraderie between them and the students at Kent State. I admire them so much for this, they are, thatis a lesson for America to reach out because they also had a tragedy. But to lose some- JC: 57:17 Yep. SM: 57:17 -it seemed like the people that our age when the boomers seem to see even when you talk about Jackson State, that was in Jackson, Mississippi and Medgar Evers was killed there in that same year. So it is,- JC: 57:35 Yes. SM: 57:35 -it is, so it is like, we grew up with assassinations, one assassination after another killings, and we are still having a lot of issues. But the tragedy, you know, it is like, I have learned one thing, and Alan said, you know, these were murders at Kent State, quit saying it is a tragedy at Kent State. They were murderers. JC: 57:55 Yeah, yeah. It took me a while to say that I felt that was maybe would turn people off when you discuss it. But Alan is absolutely right. What happened there was, when you think about Dean Kahler, who was shot in the back while laying on the ground, and Sandy Scheuer and others that [inaudible], were just going to class. It was just an indiscriminate shooting. And they are certainly, their lives were not in any kind of danger. And you know, it was just wanton or wanton shooting that which really cannot be explained. SM: 58:46 One of the things that I, I do a lot of reading, and I have heard this for years, and it is in so many books. I know, Tom Grace, I talked to him about this too, is that why Kent State? You know, of all the universities in America with all the major protests, you know, and of course, Ohio State had ma- I went to Ohio State to grad school. So Ohio State had major protests at the very same time, but no one died. And in Ohio University, where I worked in my first job, they were always considered the most liberal campus in Ohio. And they were actually purging students when I was there. Because they were up to 18,000. Then then they were down 1000s. That is why the branch campuses were helping their enrollment, but [crosstalk] but they could they get kind of tired. I think I said this to Alan, when he came to West Chester University, [inaudible] there twice. I am getting tired of hearing this in history books. Why at Kent State, because why not? It is worth I think all the major crises happened at state universities where there seemed to have been tragedies. So-so, you know. JC: 1:00:03 Well, I think I think that if you look at the governor Rhodes, and you look at the burning of the ROTC building, and the mayor of Kent, Mayor Satrom, calling in the National Guard probably prematurely. And, you know, it was just all these things kind of led up to this and the rhetoric that was said, by the governor prior to the weekend. You know, I just think that all of this kind of, unfortunately, fell in place for-for something like that to happen. SM: 1:00:46 I agree. It is the word that we use nowadays is the perfect storm, seemed like the perfect storm. JC: 1:00:54 Yes. SM: 1:00:54 Everything came in. And I, as I was saying to Tom when I interviewed him, you know, I my very first book that I read on Kent State was James Michener's book- it is full of misinformation, it has got, it is incorrect, it is not a very good book. But one thing- [crosstalk] Huh? Is that like, Kent is the hotbed of SDS? Yes. Yeah. And also, he talked about President White. And he is a culprit in this in my view, because I spent my career in higher education, and you have to have a strong president. Yet, not, every university and, and the person, and everything stops, anything that happens on your campus, you have to take responsibility for it, you are in charge. And Tom, Tom was great in terms of explaining what he has historically done in the past of not being there at the time when he needed to be there. And I blame a lot of it on him. If he if he had come- JC: 1:01:56 I am just [inaudible], I am incredulous that he would be out to lunch, off campus, when everyone knew that there was going to be a rally that- SM: 1:02:08 Yes. JC: 1:02:09 -day at noon. He had to have known. SM: 1:02:11 He did, I he should have gotten back. He was away. But he could have gotten back, he certainly could have gotten back before May 4th. And because everything was happening. JC: 1:02:21 You know, I have a feeling if that had been Dr. Beverly Warren, she would have been out there on campus, next to the guards. You know, talking to them, talking to the leaders, the guardsmen, he should have been out there, you know, talking to them and making sure that things did not get out of control. SM: 1:02:48 Yep. JC: 1:02:48 And with him gone. It just gave the military carte blanche to do whatever they wanted. SM: 1:02:56 Yeah, so it is a kind of a combination of everything coming to a head and unfortunately, sadly, it cost lives. JC: 1:03:02 Yeah. SM: 1:03:03 You know, do you have one May 4th comes every year, now I am thinking of involving the remembrance, but even those years that you were not going to the events, does that May four- obviously you have a child born on May 4th. But does that, you feel like it is like April 27, that you are only four, seven days away from that, that that day that help- really had an impact on your life? JC: 1:03:32 Well, it is something that I now that I am retired and I can dwell more on it, yes, I do think about it, anticipate what the significance of the day means and trying to make plans to be there. And, you know, if there is interviews or whatever, to make myself available for that. I think that is the other thing I am trying to do on retirement is there are some Ohio teachers who were teaching May 4th in the classroom to their students, and I have tried to make myself available to talk to these people. And so yes, when May 4th comes around now, you know, there-there is some anticipation towards it and-and what can be done to keep-keep the memory alive. There were times after I was first married and were struggling at work that may 4th came and went and I think about it over lunch hour and that, you know, that might be might be the extent of it. That is it certainly has changed here in the latter years. SM: 1:04:58 Have you had any flashbacks from that day? JC: 1:05:05 No, I cannot say that I have. I have always, like I said, I think, in a weird way, I was fortunate in that I do not recall what happened to me after I was hit. But no, I cannot say that I have any unpleasant flashbacks to it. Sometimes, you know, a lot of people ask me, you know, you were you were shot in front of the metal sculpture, and does it bother you when you walk by that place you were shot? And I guess my answer to that is that, you know, when I went back to camp- I would walk by that spot every day going into Taylor Hall. And if anything, it inspired me saying, Look, you, you were given a second chance here at life, and you need to take advantage of it. SM: 1:06:00 Yep, very positive attitude, that is excellent. Yeah, I have taken pictures of that sculpture, and it has got a hole through it and one spot. So you can see how powerful those bullets were. JC: 1:06:13 Yeah. Imagine that hitting a person. SM: 1:06:16 Yes, I know. The other thing I wanted to mention, because of the I am talking really about the boomer generation of which we are a part, and what the (19)60s were all about, is the fact that we lost so many good people, and but there were a lot of positive things too, along with the negatives. Do you, we are, we are reflecting on now what is going on in America today, with all the great divisions we are having, it is very- I do not think I have ever lived at a time like this. The pandemic does not happen either. But it is everything else has been going on in the news. But when you come here- JC: 1:06:55 Well, I think social media has a lot to do with that. SM: 1:07:02 In terms of what they are what they are-? JC: 1:07:06 Why we are so why we are so divisive, versus maybe 20 years ago. I mean, obviously, every generation, you know, we had the-the war protests and kind of a culture counterculture movement, where there was, you know, our parents, I think we were trying to comprehend what the heck we were doing. But yeah, this seems to be much more, I think with social media, you can kind of anonymously sit back and be very what is the right word, insensitive or cruel. And when you are not talking to somebody face to face. You can, you can say a lot more damaging words, and not feel guilty about it. And yeah, it is, it is very frustrating to see the misinformation. And the how things are taken out of context constantly on social media. SM: 1:08:21 How, there-there came a time with your children, when they probably put two and two together and "Dad, why were you shot, Daddy? Why were you shot?" Trying to explain to them and how do you explain that to a child? As they, and as they get older, what at what juncture did you tell the whole story? Because, you know, they are, when they are young, they do not kind of grasp things. JC: 1:08:47 Yeah, I do not think we really talked too much about it until they were maybe in junior high, or you know, about that age. And I think the other thing that kind of came into play was probably like, whenever there was like a pivotal anniversary, like the 10th or the 15th or 20th anniversary, the press tends to come out of the woodwork and want to interview you and they want to do newspaper articles and they want to do you know, maybe a little local TV segment or something. So obviously that became apparent to them. So, you know, we did explain to them what had happened. And, you know, it is interesting, we were going through my daughter's paperwork from you know, my wife saves everything she will not, you know, if it is kid related, she keeps it. And there was a paper she had done probably in eighth or ninth grade for English class about the Kent State shootings. And I was, I was pretty impressed with her insight and being able to describe the events and what-what had happened, you know, without, you know, from her point of view from a younger generation not being there. SM: 1:10:25 That is excellent. I only got a couple more questions here. One of them is the, what- two, it is a two-part question. What are the major lessons to be learned from the killings at Kent State and Jackson State? And what are the, and the second part of the question is, what are the lessons from the (19)60s and (19)70s in your opinion? As we pass on, we are now we are talking we are now three generation starting of the third generation beyond boomer that are being born today. JC: 1:11:05 Well, there is lessons to be learned. I guess the question is, are we really learning anything from it? You can draw some parallels, I think, when you go back to May 4th, and the rhetoric and I am talking about Governor Rhodes' inflammatory talk about students being worse than Brownshirts. And, you know, I think, that might have been in reference to communists, communist, I do not remember, but-but anyway, you know, this kind of inflammatory discourse, which then leads to violence. And I still, unfortunately, think we are seeing it today when people say things, to inflame groups, and then violence occurs. And so there is some frustration, because you wonder, are we really learning from these lessons? Are we learning that you know, gun violence, escalates, when followed by angry words and discourse? And so, the lessons, you know, are, I suppose, that you know, we need to pause and look at where we are going with some of this, and, and try to de-escalate situations, versus escalate them. And we are even seeing it today where rather than a calm voice, and trying to resolve a tense situation, things get ramped up, and then we have an unfortunate shooting, and it can even be police that are doing the shooting, because rather than try to de-escalate a situation, things are getting ramped. So, you know, unfortunately, I see some parallels to what is happening today, to what-what happened back there. Your second part about the (19)60s and (19)70s. I think that there was an attempt by our generation to try to break from the norm, and create a more loving and caring society, one that that takes care of its own. Unfortunately, I think that has not happened. And it is kind of fallen on deaf ears. And we have a lot of social issues today that if we showed more compassion and more understanding, I think we could start to resolve some of the- these issues, but instead, everything has become political. And it just seems like any issue today, even when we are talking about science, somehow, we end up with two sides to a story. And it baffles me on some of this. Where, where, you know, we are just trying to take care of people, or we are trying to do what is best for the common good and somehow this has to become a political issue, and it truly is sad that we have gotten to that point. So you know, I think we started out in the (19)60s and (19)70s, very idealistic, we were going to change the world. But here we are, you know, 40, 50 years later, and not much has changed. SM: 1:15:48 [inaudible] I am going to end with this. I am going to ask you to talk to someone who is going to be listening to this 20, 30 and 40 years from now, and this is January 26 2022. If there is any lessons that you yourself can give to the future youth of America, in terms of, based on the experiences of what happened at Kent State and Jackson State, what would that be in terms of advice? And one thing I want to add to this, John, you have already mentioned it, you cannot forget your history, you got to know your history and where we came from. JC: 1:16:29 Absolutely. SM: 1:16:29 Yeah, not and I am really worried about, and this has been not just my generation, boomers the generations that followed, their lack of knowledge of history is amazing. I am shocked, I work with young people. They do not know the Vietnam War. I had, we have had people tell me the Vietnam wars before World War Two, how do they get through high school that way? And so, it is the, it is the knowledge of history. But what would your advice be to future generations with respect to this historic event, Kent State and Jackson State? JC: 1:17:03 Well, I think my, my advice would be, is when you look at history, I remember, in my history classes, it is more than just memorizing dates and times and when-when these things happened, you have to try to put yourself in the time and in the place, and what people's mindsets were, I think it is more important to understand the events leading up to what happened at May 4th, versus, you know, trying to remember that it happened in the (19)70s, or whatever. And if you are a college student, and you are listening to this, try to imagine yourself being on a college campus, and being confronted with the military, with guns and halftracks, and helicopters, with them preventing you from saying what you are, what you want to say. So your freedom is being challenged by powers to be in and by your political system. And you need to just visualize what would you do as a student, if you were confronted with this, and this is what we had to face. That we did not ask for the military to be on campus. We felt that we had a right to be on our campus, our campus was open, and to be assaulted in the way that that crowd was, to be shot indiscriminately and then listen to the hatred and the vitriol that came out of the country as they came out of the state, towards the students who had done nothing more than congregate on campus, to present their political views, and think about how you would react if you were confronted in that in that type of situation. SM: 1:19:50 Beautifully said. Beautifully said. John, on that note, I want to end the interview. And I want to say thank you very much for taking part are in this. I will say this, I hope to meet you. I am going to be at Kent State on the fourth. I will be there probably the second through the fourth. I love the walk that walk. JC: 1:20:11 Yeah, I am going to, even if you know that from what I am understanding, there is some uncertainty as to whether they are going to do something because of COVID. SM: 1:20:21 Right. JC: 1:20:21 And but I have missed two years there. And I think I am going to be there no matter what, even if it is just unofficial. SM: 1:20:31 Same here. So, I look, we will be in touch and I am, I am going to turn this off. Thank you very much. Do not leave me yet. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with John Cleary IIIF Item Metadata UUID 54588851-e5d0-466b-886d-67416baa6cb3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bb54b1d4ace06d7f4432ffce6d5fc07c.jpeg de3e3236e2a0a1455ec83217c3f77d0b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3033b341f86dac17d01b2dc260e7931d.mp3 b03afdd0b634be0c1f5ae078310990f7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-01-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Jeanne Marie "Sam" Bokina Christie Biographical Text <span>Dr. Jeanne Marie "Sam" Bokina Christie, a native of Madison, Wisconsin, </span><span>joined the American Red Cross after graduating from college and served as part of the Supplemental&nbsp;</span><span>Recreational Activity Overseas Program (SRAO) in Vietnam, circa 1967-70. She served in Nha Trang, Da Nang, and Phan Rang.&nbsp;</span><span>&nbsp;After Vietnam, Christie attended graduate school and received a Ph.D. from Walden University, and became a college professor at several schools including teaching Communication at Western Connecticut State University and Manhattanville College.&nbsp; She recently wrote her first book, Women of City Point: 1864-1865.&nbsp;<br /><br /></span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:23:21 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Military women; Vietnam War; Red Cross; Volunteering; Donut Dollies; Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Vietnam; Graduate school; College education. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Jeanne Sam Bokina Christie Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 27 January 2022 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:00 You kidding, Philadelphia's cold but not this cold [laughs]. JSBC: 00:03 And we are expecting two feet of snow on Saturday. SM: 00:06 Oh, wow. Well that is Wisconsin, anyway. But just when you went to Vietnam. Okay, first off, the one question I want to ask, which I have been asking everyone is in at any time with your family, did you have any kind of a generation gap on these issues? You had, obviously, you had the support of your parents to go to Vietnam. But was there any gap at all on discussions of for or against the war? JSBC: 00:32 Not really. I have two brothers and an older sister, my older sister was, you know, engaged and getting married and doing the woman things at that point, the two boys were still coming up through high school, they were 10 years and 12 years younger than I was. So, you know, it is like, that is my older sister type stuff. No, there was no real discussion that I remember. There may have been some conversation and, but nothing that stands out in my mind. You know, they pretty much, mom and dad said you can go, go type thing. And that cut the feeling they had. The boys were always curious. I did send home, my, you know, like poncho liners and my uniforms and things like that to them. And they played with them. So they were a lot younger at that point. And, you know. SM: 01:31 When you entered the Red Cross, what was, was there a training period that you had to go through? JSBC: 01:37 There was a training period, we had to report to Washington for two weeks. And we had to have our uniforms, we had to have our navy blue raincoats, we had to have our black handbags, we had to have our black loafers. We had, you know, a list of things that we had to have, and our foot lockers. And I had talked to a gal in Milwaukee who had come back from Vietnam. And she was telling me all sorts of stories. And it was just like, "I really want to do this, I really want to go." So, we had a list of things that we had to have before we went to Washington, when we got to Washington, we were put up in a hotel, I do not remember the name of the hotel at this point. And the very first day I got there, I was wearing my little navy blue suit with my red and white polka dot blouse with a tie [inaudible] on it. And took the elevator upstairs, and there was this woman on the elevator and we are chatting. And I said, "Well, I am going for the training for the Red Cross to go to Vietnam." Turned out to be the director [laughter]. SM: 02:43 Perfect timing. JSBC: 02:44 Perfect timing, I will never forget that and you know, she just kind of rolled her eyes and laughed. So that was my introduction to the Red Cross, it was a lot about and I did not know this at the time, about rank, organization in the military, things you can do, things you cannot do, things you should do, things you should not do. But a lot of the girls came, and we were all girls at that point still. A lot of them came from military backgrounds. I came from the quasi you know, Fire Department background. So there, there was some structure there, but I did not know the ranks and they did not know the you know, the different services and things like that where others people did. So they went through all that and they taught us you know, "This is, how many stripes? What does that mean? What organization? Is that army? Is that navy? How did you, do you drink? When do you drink? Do you? Are you in uniform? Do you drink? If so how much do you drink?" You know, things like that, that we needed to know when we hit the ground running. It was not a lot about the world at that point. It was about our jobs at that point. So again, there was no emphasis on what was going on in the world right now. It was there was a war you were going to go and this is how you are going to you know get through it. Basically they showed us how to do programs. As an art teacher I you know I could paint anything I draw pictures I can do that. So. SM: 04:24 They were actually taking, each of these individuals were taking your skills and how they were going to apply to this job. [crosstalk] Excellent. JSBC: 04:29 They were taking skills. Yep, as well as your willingness to go they would take your skills. I was, you know, everybody loved having an art major come because that made making signs and posters really easy. Yeah, it was it was a lot of that stuff. We got into mischief. We had fun we would go out at night as a group and if we would run into some soldiers of course we would start talking and you know, have a drink with them and whatever. But we-we ran as a pack and nobody got into trouble. So, there were a couple girls that really were questioning whether they want to go after the at the end of the two weeks. And you had the option, you could, you know, you could walk away. But most of us went, and then we had to get our shots at the very end, we had to had a whole list of shots we had to have before we got there. And then they finally gave you the GG shot. And we swore that doctor was just a, you know. But we, you know, they virtually shoot you in the butt and then they say, "See you later," and they put you on an airplane for how many hours and it is like, ohhhhh. SM: 04:40 Yeah. My gosh. JSBC: 05:46 But we all survived. And then we flew from there. And we went to the airport, and we flew out to California to Travis Air Force Base. And there were about 13 of us that went to Vietnam on the flight that I was on, all in our little blue uniforms and chitter-chattering away with all these guys that are, you know, giving the 20,000 mile stares because they were returning to Vietnam. And they were you know, "You guys have no idea what you are going to get into," that thing. But we were fine. You know, we were fine. And when we got close to Vietnam, they turned out all the lights, it was dark. And we all kind of looked at each other like "Oh my gosh," flew in in the dark. And when he opened the door, it was just this blast of tropical heat coming in. SM: 06:40 Yep-yep. JSBC: 06:41 And everybody started, the Marines or the military started yelling at all the recruits and the guys on board the plane and we kind of looked at each other and said, "What have we gotten into?" They took us off, isolated us, and took us to BOQ where we spent the night. Next morning, we got up and I saw the guards sitting in front with guns. It is like, "Holy moly." SM: 07:07 A lot different than being home. JSBC: 07:10 Yeah, a lot different than Wisconsin. So that that was kind of the rude awakening into to Vietnam, and we had to go get uniforms and they were, we were issued boots. You know, pants, shirts, caps, which promptly we put on took a picture, and then pretty much got rid of the gear because we could wear our blue uniforms. And we just had a lot of logistical things that we had to do. Then we have training sessions at the Red Cross headquarters there on how to do a program. I had a friend from Wescott, a friend I did not- I would not know his name at this point. A gentleman from the Red Cross from Wisconsin was there. And the phone rang and they said, “Jeanne, that is for you.” I was still Jeannie. And you know, I am in Vietnam, what the hell is calling me? Happened to be this guy from the Red Cross in Wisconsin, in Madison. He said, "I have a motor scooter, let us go, I will show you around the city." So I got permission. And we went out and drove all over Saigon at that point. I remember going to the zoo, I remember driving in traffic. And here I am on the back of a scooter. And just having a wonderful time. [laughs] SM: 08:31 My gosh. JSBC: 08:33 Totally different, you know, the training sessions were supposed to be at. And it was, you know, it was easy. They kind of assessed the group and decided who would go to which unit at that point. And after a couple days, they said "You are going here you are going there. The flight is leaving at, you know, in 20 minutes from the airport, you better get over there." There was no great farewell, a farewell ceremony. And I was sent to NhaTrang for my first duty station. SM: 09:08 Now did you go, when they broke the 13 up, how many kind of stayed together? Were there four of you, or two of you? Or how many? JSBC: 09:15 No, we all kind of went different places. I do not remember who went where. I know I was the only one going to NhaTrang. And it just depended on how many, you know, slots were open. And- SM: 09:30 Oh, okay. JSBC: 09:32 -where they were, you know, who was rotating out is what mattered. So they had to fill those slots. And I was the only one that went to NhaTrang. SM: 09:40 Now how long were you there? JSBC: 09:43 Oof, I am going to say about six months. SM: 09:48 So, half the time you were in Vietnam, you were there. JSBC: 09:51 Well, I was 13 months in Vietnam. So. I was there, I came in the end of January. [counting] February March, April, May June. Yeah, about six months, about July, and had a great time, learned a lot. We learned from each other at that point. You know, we were paired up with another girl who had been there obviously a long time or much longer than we had at that point. And, you know, we were shown the ropes. "This is who we, who you need to see, this is who you need to go to, this is where you have to go. This is oh, this unit over here, that is over there. Come on, we can go on to this group over here." So it was, it was a learning experience the whole time. They did, of course, do a little harassment. I had to pull guard duty the very first night. They made me sit on the front steps and our hooch was shared with the nurses, it was on the hospital compound. The separating factor was a roll of barbed wire. And the village homes right on the other side of the barbed wire, and there were kids playing over there. SM: 09:53 Okay. Wow. JSBC: 11:02 And the girl said, "Well, you have to do guard duty that night. So, we are going to give you a whistle. And we are going to give you a helmet, and we are going to give you a flashlight, and if you see anything, you have to blow your whistle." They had a horrendous time laughing that night. I was scared to death. [laughter] Somebody comes down the road, what am I do now, type thing. Well, it was, you know, just pure harassment. And it is funny now, but you know, it is, that is how you start. You pay your dues. And I had some really great roommates and I had some really good people to work with. Kathy Wickstrom, who has passed away now, was my roommate for many, many months. She was from Illinois. And oh, gosh, she was just great to me, I mean, she could charm the pants off a snake, you know, she could, she knew how to do it all. And she always wore her hair up on a, in a bun up top. And one of the funnier stories about Kathy is, of course, we are out programming and she walks underneath a branch and it catches on her hair. And she used to stuff it with nylon stockings, to keep it fluffy. And as she is walking away, the stocking is coming out of the back of her hair. [laughter] And the guys are in hysterics laughing and I was laughing and Kathy was like, "What is going on?" But she you know, she was just cool. And she knew the weapons, she knew how to get the guys to talk about the weapons. "Tell me about your, what is this rifle over here? Well, why is it different from that rifle?" She knew the banter that would go with it. So she was a great teacher. And we had a lot of fun on different things. And-and, you know, I cannot say, I am sorry she is gone. But she-she really taught me a lot about how to deal with everything. SM: 12:58 Now did you, but when you would go out to be with these, the troops, did we did, were you taken in a helicopter or a truck or both? Depending on where you were? JSBC: 13:10 Yeah, sometimes we would go out in a jeep. Sometimes if it was, you know, close by on the base, we would go out on the Jeep. A lot of times, we had a quarter ton truck and we had two drivers, Richie and gosh, can think the other guy's name right now. And then a lot of times we would fly, we would go by chopper, we would go by the, special forces used to take us out in a different plane. Cannot-cannot even think of the name of the plane now. But it was not unusual to you know, show up at the Special Forces location and they would say, "Okay, today we are going to do here, we are going to go there and, you know, get in that aircraft." So it just depended on-on where we were going. Sometimes we rode the duck, we went to [inaudible] Island, and they had this water duck, you know, ride the duck type thing. And we went out to the islands on the duck and did our programs and then got on the duck and came back. So it would vary from what they had available as to where you had to go in Nha Trang. SM: 14:20 Were the numbers of soldiers that were there, dd you, were they waiting for you? Or do they just, you were there doing things and they just kind of walked up? Or how did that work? JSBC: 14:29 A little of each. Sometimes they knew we were coming, sometimes if we were flying in, you would drop out of the sky and it is like, "Oh my God, they are girls." You know, and it was like wildfire. "The girls, the girls came on my helicopter." So it varied. There were occasions when we had a regular stop that they knew we were coming on Monday at, you know, 11 o'clock or whatever it is. So they would have a group kind of gathered around and, you know, nobody was required to stay there. They could walk off if they did not like what you are doing. A lot of guys just would stand in the background and watch. So it, it varied. It varied. You had to roll with the punches at that point. SM: 15:16 Did you, now were you were only there one day? Or did you sometimes be there two days? JSBC: 15:20 No, we would be there an hour. SM: 15:22 Oh, an hour? JSBC: 15:23 An hour usually. Yeah, you would do six or seven stops during the course of a day. SM: 15:29 Wow. That is a lot of stops. JSBC: 15:31 It is a lot of stops. And so we would go from one to the other. And again, it depended on how, your, what your transportation was. And then, you know, how long does it fly- Does it take to fly such and such a place? How long does it take to you know, get the truck to, when-when we left town in the truck, we had to stop at the White Mice Station? And they had to pay the-the Vietnamese guards off for safe passage. So that was that was kind of interesting. I was like, "Richie, what are you doing?" He said, "We are paying the guards off." So, you know, the White Mice knew that we were in the area, and they would, it is okay, the girls are coming out and blah, blah, blah, blah, type thing. So that was after staying in [inaudible]. So you know, it varied, it varied. SM: 16:23 In a typical week, would you be doing this seven day a week or five days a week? JSBC: 16:30 Maybe six days a week. SM: 16:31 Okay. JSBC: 16:31 You might have a day off, but let me clue you. If you are in a combat zone, as a woman, there is no time off. [laughter] Because anyplace you go, you know, you are drawing attention and the crowd is coming. But we technically had one day off. And I know, because I became very good friends with [inaudible] and she would take me shopping. And we would go into town, we would go shopping. So I know I had time off to do that. And we cook different food together. I went to her-her house at one point and met her children it was, I was very honored actually to be able to do that. And then her husband wanted to give me a ride home. And I weighed more than he did on the motor scooter. So [laughter] he was a little, a little embarrassed that he could not give me a ride home. They had to find a vehicle for me to ride in. SM: 17:31 Right. JSBC: 17:31 But, you know, it is- we genuinely had one day off. SM: 17:36 In those, and you did this for a year now, six months or a little over six months at this location, and then other locations. Were there some men or some of the troops that stood out, like in other words, that you are doing your programs, but they might want to, you know, I have not been able to talk to my mom or dad. I you know, did they ever kind of open up at all? JSBC: 18:04 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Sometimes you would go in there you do you learn to do, we learned very quickly to read nonverbally, what the case was going to be. Sometimes you would show up and they had just lost somebody. You knew that you, kind of forget the program, there was going to be no-no giggles and laughs this time. We also learned to sit next to them instead of in front of them. We very quickly learned that so that they could talk to you without being threatened. And sometimes all we felt like were-were great big ears, because we listened to them. And that was one of the things we learned to do a lot of from the older gals. Just listen to them. Let them do the talking. And if they will not talk, again, get them to talk about their weapon. They will always tell you about, you could wake them up in the middle of the night. "Tell me about your guns." And you know, they'll rattle it off. So just to get them speaking was sometimes a major accomplishment. Sometimes we heard sentences that all started with f. And we knew the meaning of every one of them. We did not pass judgment, we just listened. SM: 18:56 Right. Were you, also were these protected areas where you were, in other words you were when you were when the troops, there was a group farther away that was protecting the area where you were. I say this because you know your very first experience on arrival in Vietnam was to have the lights turned off on the plane. Obviously you knew then that it was a different lifestyle there. You know your work, dd you ever feel worrying about, you might yourself be killed? JSBC: 19:53 You know, that was one of the things that we laugh about and we reflect back on the younger generation now. Then we, we were 21 years old, we were like the kids now, invincible. Nothing would ever get us. We knew there was danger, we knew there was a war zone going on. We know people are getting killed and dying. But it was not first thought on our mind. We could not go to work if we, you know, we worried about that. So it was it was a danger. It was situational. There were times that things did happen. There were times that, you know, several women did get killed while we were there. But it was, you know, it was not at the top of your list in your mind. You cannot do your job if, if you were worried about that. So we just did the best we could. We, our driver had a gun. So you know, we had an armed guard technically. You know, the men were very protective of us. If anything came up, we were the first ones they would grab and, you know, get out of the way. So, it was not anything we worried about at that point in our life. Now it is a whole different thing. I would worry about it. But back then, no, being 21. And, and you know, the world is your oyster type thing. We did not think about it. SM: 21:34 Do you know how many in, once the war was over how many in the Red Cross had died? JSBC: 21:40 Oh, gosh, I know, there were at least five. There were three in our program that died. And I just found out the other day that there was another woman whose husband was there. She was working for another organization. And she was killed during Tet. SM: 21:58 Wow. JSBC: 21:59 Yeah. SM: 22:00 You know, I reflect upon the-the wall in Washington DC, of course, the women's memorial in (19)93 that was opened, but I reflect upon the wall because I think there is only 12 names on the wall of women. JSBC: 22:12 Right-right. SM: 22:13 And are there any of them Red Cross? JSBC: 22:16 Red Cross has a plaque that has their names on them. But because we were not technically military- SM: 22:24 Right. JSBC: 22:24 -we could not be put on the wall. And that still to this day is one of those bugaboos. You know, I live in a community that has a veteran’s group, but I am not a veteran. SM: 22:38 Yeah. JSBC: 22:38 I am a veteran of Vietnam. SM: 22:40 Right. JSBC: 22:40 But not a Vietnam veteran. SM: 22:41 Right. JSBC: 22:42 And that, you know, that is a very fine line of distinction. And there is resentment when you get into a group and you are not a DD 214 veteran. SM: 22:53 Right. I understand that. I know there is, when the wall was built, all these restrictions about what other things that can be placed near the wall. Of course, the three man statue, that got through because of some power [inaudible] Vietnam vets. But, of course, the women's memorial was way overdue, way overdue. And thanks to Diane and all she did in her group. But, you know, there, I have gotten to the wall now, on Memorial Day, Veterans Day, except the last two years because of COVID every year since Lewis Puller died, because I got to know, I know, I got to know Lewis and I really felt I had to be there every year from that point forward. And-and it is interesting, because I know there has been men who had dogs that they love, there needs to be recognition for the dogs. And of course, they, no way are they going to be recognized at the wall and certain-. But people like you and who went over and we were with the, maybe there was a discussion down the road that that will change. JSBC: 24:01 I doubt it very truthfully. I really, I cannot see, they, if they did that there are so many things they would have to do. If we all die out, then somebody might recognize it. But then they would not have to give us medical coverage or, you know, Agent Orange coverage or anything else. PTSD. We all were exposed to the whole stuff. But because we are with a private organization, we are not covered under that. And if they recognized us, then they would have to do that. So once we all die off, it'll probably happen, but not until then. SM: 24:38 I think. Yeah, the things that were happening in America. During that time that you were there. Were you cognizant of what was going on in America itself? JSBC: 24:48 No. SM: 24:48 Because of the tremendous protests and divisions and everything else. The race issue racial issues, drugs, everything. JSBC: 24:56 No, I was not well, the drugs and the race issue were after I came home. And they were not that prevalent when I was there. Because I was there early. I was there (19)67. SM: 25:12 Right. JSBC: 25:13 So, you know, that that starts in afterwards and becomes a problem in the (19)70s. So I was not aware of that. I, we knew there were drugs. And if you wanted them, you could get them. But it, it was not a problem for us then. If that makes sense. I mean, it sounds crazy. SM: 25:38 And they always, they always say that the real heyday or the, when the real deaths were happening in large numbers was from (19)67 to (19)71 were the real crisis years. And I know Phil Caputo who wrote the book "A Rumor of War," he wrote the book because "Hey, wait a minute, I was there in (19)65 and (19)66. And there is a lot going on there too the-the Ia Drang Valley was very early." JSBC: 26:04 Yeah. SM: 26:05 So you know, I bring these things up. Because you see, so many books have been written and you know, the war was a long one and there was different periods of ups and downs, and, and certainly drugs. You know, what was happening in America was somewhat prevalent, what was happening in Vietnam as well in the early (19)70s. What, what did you do when you were after six months, where did you go after that? JSBC: 26:30 After NhaTrang, I went to Da Nang with the First Marine Division. And we were, we had quarters in a house that we lived in and in Da Nang proper. We had a driver who had a red and white Volkswagen bus [laughs] to take us back and forth. We had a center up on freedom hill, and we had a center on the flight line for the Marine Corps, which was blown up shortly after I got there. So you know, it was a very different. I had been with the army, and I had been with the Navy in NhaTrang, basically, in special forces. Now all sudden, I am with the Marine Corps. And that was an adjustment. That was an adjustment. Not a bad one. And you know, but it was a different way of looking at military service and your obligation and things. SM: 27:29 Yeah. JSBC: 27:30 Yeah. SM: 27:30 I can understand, I know a lot of Marines and- JSBC: 27:33 Yep. SM: 27:34 -to get to be a Marine is very difficult. JSBC: 27:36 Yeah. SM: 27:36 And you know, you can go through training and you do not cut it and then go into the army and but you are not a Marine. JSBC: 27:42 Yeah. SM: 27:42 And so, there is a pride and there is a call and I can see it the Vietnam Memorial every year, the pride is really there in being a Marine, and it goes from generation to generation too. JSBC: 27:51 It does, and you know, great guys. A lot of I mean, I knew some of the dirty things that were going on when I was in NhaTrang. For example, I am going to backtrack a second, I had two friends who were with Air America. And they used to come by the house, the house that had the barbed wire on the outside, and we would sit and chat and talk and everything else. And one of the guys was dating a nurse in town, not a gov- not a military nurse, but a civilian nurse. And, gosh he was good looking guy, good looking guy. And anyway, one day, the other friend came by and he said, "I want to tell you that so and so is no longer here." And I said, "what happened?" He said, "He killed himself." And I said, "Oh, why?" "Well, he shot the nurse. He killed the nurse. And then he turned the gun on himself." So we knew things like that were going on. But, you know, it was a much grander scale when we got to the Marine Corps. And they had a lot of dirty stuff. I mean, you know, I, the standing joke about the "Oh apricots for me." They showed me a string of-of ear. SM: 29:05 Wow. JSBC: 29:06 When I was out in the field one day, and I really thought they were apricots. I really did. And today I look at apricots and I see, you know, the same thing [laughs]. And I was like, "Hmm." And then seeing shrunken heads and different things like that, and some of the beatings and some of the other problems that went into it, that I did not see in NhaTrang a lot. I was more exposed to it when I was with the Marine Corps. They were tough. There was, there was no you know, leeway. You were, you either did it or you did not do it type thing. And great guys. I love my Marines, absolutely adore them. But their duty was very different from that of the Army or the Navy. And you know if anything happens, if I ever need protection, I am going to get myself a couple of good Marines. SM: 30:03 Yeah, I think I can remember when we had Jan Scruggs and Country Joe McDonald, they came to West Chester University back in, I think (19)99, we, we did the traveling Vietnam memorial at the university and, and-and they were speaking and Jan helped us get Country Joe. I remember we were at dinner one night and country Joe was just talking with Jan, Jan was talking to the students and-and then country Joe, just out of the clear blue says, "Well, you know why there were not any hostages, why there were not any hostage- North Vietnamese or Vietcong hostages, do not you?" And, "Because they were all killed." And I did not, I did not quite understand this, I thought there were hostages. And because what happened is a lot of the guys gave them, they gave them off to the South Vietnamese Army, and they did whatever they wanted to do to him or something. JSBC: 31:02 Yeah-yeah. SM: 31:03 So that and I, and Jan did not even say anything, this is all Country Joe saying it. Any he kind of, you know. So and it came up due to a question from a student. I wanted to ask you, since you were with, around these guys, you know, for an entire year and you know how America treated them upon the return home, this has really upset me for a long time, is how Vietnam veterans are treated upon their return to America. I have locals’ stories of veterans coming home and not even allowed into a Viet Veterans of Foreign Wars office. And because a lot of it has to do with My Lai and this perception that they are all crazed, and they are all bad. And that affected the women too. JSBC: 31:46 Sure. SM: 31:47 Did you notice when you were with the, for that year, the mental health issues that were facing a lot of the young men and women who were serving in Vietnam, and we all know now cause of post-traumatic stress disorder. And-and you said the one gentleman killed himself and then his girlfriend or whatever, just-just the overall mental health of, you know, the Agent Orange and all the things they were going through? JSBC: 32:19 I am going to say no. As a general term, Agent Orange, we did not know about we did not understand it at that point. The mental health issues. Yeah, there were a lot of issues. And there were a lot of guys who were stressed out. But again, our job was to listen to them, and not debate the issues. And if they had a paragraph of all F words, we under, we listened to those too, and tried not to get into the debate if that makes sense. PTSD, nobody knew about at that point. You know, it, it was an emotional thing. I had, I had a Marine come into the center one day, and we had a music room where they would play drums and everything else. They were supposed to check the weapons. He brought us up, brought a weapon in with him, and all sudden, I am on duty. And I hear this, "Boom." And, you know, now what, you look. And they said, "Oh, in the music room type thing." I went into the music room, he had shot himself in the foot. So he could get out. And he left. I mean, he was gone before I even got there. "Where would he go?" "Well, he shot himself in the foot, you know, took off." So, you know, yeah, there were, the guys were under a lot of stress. And again, it was not our job to get into that finite portion of right or wrong with them. Listen to them. SM: 33:57 Right. JSBC: 33:58 Listen to them. So it was very interesting. You know, I do not know what I can tell you. I mean, laughter was best, the best medicine. And, and we knew that from again, the previous training from the older women that had been there before. If you get-get them to laugh, they cannot cry and they cannot laugh at the same time. If they can laugh at you, make them do that. If they can laugh at themselves, even better. You know, try and bring some humor and break that facade. If they cannot talk to you. You know if you are serving chow and you have got six of them sitting over on the other side just watching and you know, spill something on yourself or drop a dish and make them laugh. So, you know, you were always aware of that factor. I do not know if that makes sense to you. SM: 34:56 Yeah, it does. It does. I-I was not there. I think this- It is important because the people who will be listening to these interviews, you know, it is all about research and scholarship and trying to understand the times and that war. And it is, and believe me, 20, 30 years from now, generations will be listening to these interviews as well. And I just do not want this, the (19)60s and (19)70s and the Vietnam War, and the lessons learned from these times to ever be forgotten. That is one of the goals of everything we are doing. What- JSBC: 35:31 I can, I can tell you though Stephen. When I came home, I was accosted by women. I was doing a panel with Red Cross one night in Madison. And after I was all done, a couple of the women came up to me, and they were shaking their fingers at me. And they said, "We know what you did in Vietnam." And they were furious. You know, it is like, "You are, you are a whore. We know that." And I just looked at them kind of dumbfounded. And I sealed it off. I never talked about it for-for 10, 15 years afterwards. SM: 35:32 Yeah. JSBC: 35:32 It was just like, I am not going to deal with it. They do not, you know, nobody knows, as a woman, where I was for that year. It is no big deal if a woman disappears. For a guy, they were going to assume that they went over into service. But for a woman they would not. And so I just, I refused to talk about it. SM: 36:26 When now, when your time was nearing an end for 13 months, were you thinking about what you were going to do next when you got home or were you thinking? JSBC: 36:37 Oh, I knew. I knew already what I was going to do. I had applied to graduate school, from Vietnam. And I applied to NYU and I applied to Miami of Ohio. NYU accepted me, but did not give me any funding. And of course, I did not have any money. And so Miami gave me a full ride. And I said, I know where I am going. [laughs] SM: 37:02 That is a good school. I worked Ohio University my first job, that is a very good school. JSBC: 37:07 Yeah, yeah. So that, that made it very easy. But no, DaNang was a wonderful place. I learned a lot. I learned a lot about life. I learned a lot about difficult situations that men can get into. You know, I had wonderful opportunities to kind of expand my whole knowledge. We were, we had sniper fire at night into our house. Never knew I could get under a bed in hair rollers so fast in my life. As I said, our one of our centers was blown up. And I still have to this day a piece of shrapnel from that day. I you know, I used to see guys in the hospitals that look like somebody had taken the course pepper grinder to them. And I would stand there and look at them. I really did not know what at all was, it was shrapnel. And finally, after the center was blown up, it was kind of "Oh, that [laughs], that is what that is" type stuff. You know, oh gosh, going into the hospitals and I learned what burn victims smell like. We had one guy in there. He was isolated and kind of put off to the side. He was covered in patches. He had a little teeny tiny peephole, like a quarter of an inch of the bandage that he could see through. And we had gone into the wards, they had to leave him alone. So we did our thing. We talked to the guys on the ward. On leaving, we went past him. And I just could not resist. I said, "That is a nice peephole." Well, as soon as I said something, the corpsman grabbed me and decided that they were going to give me a shot, an injection, which was just water. But anyway, they got this guy who was just totally bandaged to laugh. And it was probably one of the best moments [laughter]. Here is his little itty-bitty peephole. That is all he could see is these corpsmen grabbing me. And, you know, it was it was a wonderful moment for him. It was a wonderful moment in the hospital just to give that relief to somebody. You know it-it was terrific. We had some very nasty things happen up there. We had some great things happen up there. The Air Force was up there as well. And we got to know a bunch of them. When they would do 100 missions over North Vietnam. They had a fire truck that you could, it was a water truck and you could hose anybody down within range. Well, we got to ride the fire trucks when they hosed people down [laughter]. A lot of people probably hated us. They had some music centers where we could go in and totally just decompress and just listen to music. On tapes, we all had tape decks at that point. Speaking of music, one of the great moments and to this day, I still get tears in my eyes, listening to music and Dvorak, New World Symphony. SM: 37:46 Wow. Oh, wow. JSBC: 40:25 When they started playing "Going Home," we had we had it playing in the center one night, or day. And when that got, I mean, it is noisy in the center. I mean, everybody's talking and people are moving around. And they were very noisy. And that piece came on. And I just remember absolute dead silence. SM: 40:45 Wow. JSBC: 40:46 And all these tough Marines just in another world of going home. It was beautiful. SM: 40:53 Is not that- JSBC: 40:54 Absolutely wonderful. And to this day, I hear that peace out. I just think that those guys just standing there. And how meaningful it was to them. God bless America was another thing that that would stop them. And so you know, you had wonderful things like that happen, as well. And very meaningful. SM: 41:14 I know that you know, those Bob Hope tours were very important to the trips too. JSBC: 41:18 Yeah. SM: 41:18 Every year and of course, the singers and the entertainers that came over. But the music is known "Good Morning, Vietnam." And there is truth to that, because you know, what, no matter what you are talking about, about the people that served in the war, the music was a very important part of their lives. JSBC: 41:34 It was. SM: 41:35 And, and just about all that music from the (19)60s and into the mid (19)70s. I mean, we are talking. Typically, Vietnam War, we are talking (19)59 to (19)75 is what you talk about, but you know, disco came in toward the very end and everything. But, you know, did you hear music a lot when you were going around these places, were they playing it on a transistor radios? JSBC: 41:58 If we were out in the field, no, not a lot of music out there. If we were in the centers obviously, we had the music. SM: 42:05 Right, which of the- JSBC: 42:07 And- SM: 42:07 -were there, were there groups that you felt were like the groups for the troops? JSBC: 42:14 We did not ex- I did not experience that. I am going to say I personally. We had Bob Hope with us at Phan Rang, which was my third stop. And that was meaningful. But for the most part you know, we did not go to the shows in Da Nang. They were too rough, they were too dangerous for the most part. Our center, as I said, the one on the flight line was blown up. The big center up and Freedom Hill, a couple times we were evacuated out of there because they would just throw us in jeeps and get us out there is because VC were on the other side of the hill. So you know, we kind of had to pace ourselves and see what was going on. But music, if they could, if they could hear it, they loved it. And they would play it. Not a lot of radios out in the boonies [laughs]. SM: 43:11 Now that, I am going to get into your post-Vietnam. But when you were in Vietnam, of course, you had the African American soldiers and you had the Latino soldiers and you had Native American soldiers, there was a couple books written right now, why I served. Native Americans and certainly Asian Americans as well. Did you see, was there a camaraderie between these groups during the time that you were there? JSBC: 43:41 I did not notice the difference. Believe it or not in (19)67 I did not see the Black or the Latino or the Asians or whatever group you want to call it. I just saw soldiers. They were all brothers back then. And we had Black, white, pink, polka dot striped whatever friends amongst the groups. There, this, as crazy as it is going to sound, I did not see that difference. And maybe that is part me. And maybe it is part them. But it was early. And we accepted everybody on the same level. SM: 44:27 As they should. JSBC: 44:28 Yeah. SM: 44:29 Yeah. And because you know, anybody I have talked to who has served in war, and I did not do it, so I cannot talk on it, but I have when I have talked to others is they were our brothers and sisters. JSBC: 44:39 Yeah. SM: 44:39 When we were in war, we do not think about this. JSBC: 44:42 Right. SM: 44:42 We think of survival and helping them survive. JSBC: 44:46 Yeah. SM: 44:46 And what happens beyond that is another story. JSBC: 44:50 Yeah. [crosstalk] I know some of the women that came after me in the later years, noticed a difference but when I was there, I did not. People felt the same. SM: 45:01 The last thing I wanted to mention on the what happening, was happening in Vietnam. Did you ever experience or hear about fragging? JSBC: 45:09 Oh, yeah. We know about fragging. [laughs] SM: 45:13 Yeah. Because- JSBC: 45:13 Sorry about that. I know. No, we knew about fragging. We also knew and again, we would hear things when the guys came in, and they were angry. You knew you know, the next time, oh, he was fragged. SM: 45:14 Because, uh you know, graduates of West Point in Annapolis and they had come to Vietnam and some of the young guys under them said, "Who are these guys?" Wow. JSBC: 45:38 And you knew what happened. So we knew that was going on. I did not know anybody personally, who was fragged. But there, you know, there were things going on. There were. SM: 45:53 On your flight back when you knew you were coming home. And were you going to just go home and visit your parents first and then go to the Miami of Ohio? JSBC: 46:02 [laughs] Oh, you are a dreamer. [laughter] Let us see, let me let me backtrack for a few minutes. I just want to say one thing about when I, my third assignment was Phan Rang. And that was with the Air Force. [inaudible] sit on the other side, the Aussies were in the middle, we were with the Air Force. And that was where I was a unit and programming director. And for the first time, I really became aware of the danger that some of the women were in. We had VC picked up, and they had photographed the women. So they were targeting them. We had one of the girls in the group, she had gone to the beach with a soldier, and which was fine with me, they got a motor scooter, and they were going to the beach. And they had some charcoal with them. And they had, somebody put a grenade in the charcoal. SM: 46:54 Oh, god. JSBC: 46:54 So, we, you know, I became very aware of some of the dangers. We had a lot of people peeping toms, we had VC that would be watching the house and we had a dog, the dog would, dog was our security. Dog would bark, and you would go to the door and you would see somebody run up the hill. So we knew, I knew, I should say I knew of some of the dangers at that point that were lurking out there. And I did not, I was not aware of them in the other two locations as such. So, by the time I would become unit and program director because, I would hear from the commanding officer, this is what has happened, you have got to be aware of this. So that is, that is kind of that story. But on to coming home. Came home. I knew where it was going. I flew into, well, it was during Tet, and I could not get out. So I was in Saigon, there were five of us who were rotating out. And I, you know, I wanted out at that point. I, I had a date. I mean, I knew where I had to be in XYZ days, you know, type thing. So I eventually, it was Tet, we went with to the top of the hotel I can never remember the name of, it had a bar on the top. And we could watch all the fireworks going on all the you know, gunships and [inaudible] the ground. And I found a pilot who had a bird dog who was willing to get me back to Phan Rang, where if I got Phan Rang, I could get to Cam Ranh, if I could get to Cam Ranh and I could get a C-23 or C-130 out of the country. So that was my route. And I had a flight suit at that point. So that morning, we left first thing in the morning and the fires were still going on-on the flight line. There were bomb craters all over the place. And he got the bird dog out. Took me to Phan Rang. I got there and they said, "I thought you left, you know, what you doing back here?" And I said, "I am going to Cam Ranh, get me on a flight to Cam Ranh" and got Cam Ranh, wore my flight suit and boots, and got all set to go. But because I was a civilian, I still did not have a stamped passport. Because of that. I had to go back down to Saigon and get somebody, anybody to stamp that book, that passport book, so I could get out of the country. I had orders, but I did not have a passport. I mean, I could get out of the country. I could not get into another country. SM: 49:38 Right. JSBC: 49:38 So, you know back and forth and down and I finally got out, headed towards Okinawa on a military flight, and in Okinawa, then I was able to eventually get to Japan and got a commercial flight home to San Francisco. Got to San Francisco and I did not, I was not ready to go home yet [laughs]. I went to see one of my buddies. And he was an old, I had, you know, it is hard for people to understand. I had so many good friends and buddies, men. And he was an F4 pilot. And he said, you know, on your way home come to McChord Air Force Base, let us go flying. I held him to it. So I had the flight suit. And I had short hair. So I went to, I went from San Francisco to McChord Air Force Base, and we flew T-33s. And just had a wonderful time. And, you know, eventually then I got another flight and went to Madison, Wisconsin. Saw my family, "Hello, I am safe," you know, whatever. And "Oh, by the way, I have to be over in [laughs] Miami at, you know, in Oxford Ohio in a few days here." So I, short stay at home and headed towards Miami of Ohio and got into mischief there, so [laughter]. I was a handful. So that was, that was my flight home. I mean, I you know, I did not really go home-home for any length of time, I spent my time seeing a buddy. I often wonder whatever happened to him, I know he is married. He was an awful nice guy just is the one that said, you know, you are 10 pounds overweight, your head is a mess, get your act together. And, you know, it took a good friend to say that. SM: 51:40 When you, when that plane took off, you know, I am going to ask, when that plane took off, and you were off the ground, and you were heading home to San Francisco. What was going through that mind of yours? JSBC: 51:51 Well, that flight was out of Japan. SM: 51:53 Oh, ok Japan. JSBC: 51:54 Out of Japan. And I had a very nasty dirty man sitting next to me and he wanted to give me a permanent gig, give me a job. He had a position for me. I said, "I have been through a year, you know, 13 months in Vietnam of all these men, and it was an extra dirty old man who was [inaudible] me?" [laughter] I could not believe it. SM: 52:15 Wow. JSBC: 52:16 So, it was a very quiet long flight. [laughter] SM: 52:22 Okay, so when you were going to Miami, Ohio, what were you going to major in? JSBC: 52:28 I was getting a master's in educational supervision. SM: 52:32 Okay. JSBC: 52:34 And I was working in the art department. Specifically in the ceramics lab. SM: 52:41 Is that a two-year program or-? JSBC: 52:42 No, it was a one-year program. And at the end of it, we had to do an exhibit. We had to you know, pass our exams. And then we took a bunch of kids and we went to New York. You know, so it was kind of fun. But it was an interesting year, and I had developed a very good friend, who I decided I was I was not going to stay in the American, in America anymore. I did not like American women at that point. They were snippy snotty, and they had no clue what was going on in the world. And that was just my bias. And so I had I had an opportunity to apply for the USO and become an associate director of the USO. And they offered me a job in Guam or back to Vietnam. And I said, "Well, I have been to Vietnam, I might as well go to Guam." And this other gal in our department, liked what I was doing, she decided she was going to apply but she was six months younger than I was. So of course, she got to go to Thailand. And that was where I wanted to go. And you know, we had many, many funny stories as that story goes on. But that was what I did afterwards. SM: 53:58 And how long were you there? JSBC: 54:01 My tour was almost two years. And I met my husband over there. So I kind of ended it a little bit early and my mother came over and my mother and I traveled around the world. SM: 54:15 Wow. JSBC: 54:15 Yeah. SM: 54:15 What what-was the- your job responsibilities with the USO? JSBC: 54:20 Well, one thing it would have been, it did not last that way. Our director heart attack and died. So two of us who were the associates became, you know, the surrogate directors. We ran a daycare center. We had a big facility on a beach. We did a lot of things, civic programs that were, we were involved. I took the guys what we call duney stomping, we would take them hiking up in the hills of Guam where they were still fighting Japanese from World War Two up there. So it, you know, it varied again but it was another tropical island. SM: 54:59 And after Guam you came home again? JSBC: 55:02 After Guam I came home again and I did get married. I was not 100 percent sure, as the closer I got to New York that I wanted to do that, but I did. SM: 55:13 Right. How did you get your PhD? JSBC: 55:19 Raised two children, went through PTSD did a bunch of other things in the community, and decided, well, why not? I have got a Master's degree. And so I applied, and I was interested in the adult learning program. And just did it on a lark basically, got accepted and cried all the way across town saying, "What have I done, what have I done? Oh, my God, what have I done now?" And anyway, you know, I had to live on campus for a while. And my husband moved in the meantime, down to Virginia for a job. So we were back and forth. And, you know, got all the way through all the exams and everything else. And working, this is just as computers were coming in. So I would send papers home, and it would take a week to get back up to Connecticut, and then 10 days to be read and, you know, back down, and it was not working out one might say. So, I took one degree and then decided that I was ABD at that point, that I still wanted to write the dissertation. And I was interested in women in the Iraq war and their communication patterns. And so I proposed it to another online school at that point, they accepted it, and I finished the PhD that way. SM: 56:43 Wow, that is a good story, too. My God. JSBC: 56:46 Yep-yep. So, I got to meet some of the girls from the Iraq war that that way that I am still in touch with, which is really neat. SM: 56:52 Do you stay in touch with any of the people you worked with in Vietnam? JSBC: 56:57 In Vietnam? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we have a whole group of us, a whole group of us. SM: 57:02 Do you meet? Or do you just kind of- JSBC: 57:05 We periodically try and meet, of course, COVID has not helped. And we are going to, a couple of us are in charge of a conference that will be held in (20)23, up in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. So, we are getting that one in the in the works at this point, which is kind of fun. We try, it tries to move it from different places around the United States. So other people can go when it is, you know, closer by. SM: 57:30 I want to ask you about if you and your peers in the Red Cross, after leaving Vietnam, went through what we just talked about briefly here about how you were treated in in the United States upon your return, when people knew that you served. You know, Vietnam veterans are treated so poorly until (19)82, when the wall was built. JSBC: 57:53 Yeah. SM: 57:53 In fact, they were even I was in California at the time. And I, but I heard there were protesters outside on the streets, even when the wall was being opened, which I thought was ridiculous. JSBC: 58:04 Oh, yeah. SM: 58:05 What the heck-? But just that-that has been, it is not happening now. Because now we got the issue of people lying that they were Vietnam veterans. JSBC: 58:15 Yeah. SM: 58:15 You know, because they are, they are accepted. But at that time, they were treated poorly. Did you experience any of that? JSBC: 58:21 It still happens, it still happens. I will give you an example the other day, with a veterans group locally here, I kind of walked in, well, I backtrack a second. They have two libraries in two of the clubs here, one for each of the buildings. And there are a ton of books about war, and Vietnam and the other wars. There was not one book about women. And when I looked at the shelf, I said, "What, I can do something about this!" So I had a couple books, and I took them over when the group was getting together that they meet once a month. And I gave them to the guy who was running the group. And I said, "Here is the start of your woman's collection." And I said I was a Donut Dollie in Vietnam, and he was very receptive. He took me into the room and he introduced me. And [groans] not everybody is enthralled by you know, being a Donut Dollie in Vietnam. Because a lot of people still do not like the Red Cross. And it is a mixed review, let us put it that way. And they said, "Well, you can stay" and I said, "No, this is a veteran’s group." And again, I am a veteran of Vietnam. I am not a, you know, Vietnam veteran. SM: 59:41 Right. JSBC: 59:41 And I said, But I would be more than happy to help you and anything you need done, just call me, just let me know. So I left and about two weeks later, in a ladies group. I am sitting there and I am talking to [inaudible] some of the women and I said something. And the one woman looked at me whose husband-husband was a West Point graduate. And she said, "Oh, the Donut Dollie!" And you know, it has taken me several weeks to figure out, that was not the biggest compliment. [laughter] So her husband must have gone home and said, "Oh, and we have a Donut Dollie," you know. And she came through and it was not gracious. So, you know, it does still happen. They do not always accept it. And it was difficult for a woman to really say where she was, and to be accepted. SM: 1:00:43 Well, we all know what Diane Carlson Evans went through when the hearings in Congress and she was called everything. And boy, just like Jan Scruggs and creating the wall, it took a lot of courage and guts to get through all the battles to make it happen. But when what where, did you visit the, were you there the day the woman's memorial was dedicated, or? JSBC: 1:01:11 Yes, I was. SM: 1:01:13 That was in I think, November 11th of (19)93. JSBC: 1:01:17 I am not sure the year but yeah, I was down there. SM: 1:01:20 What, can you talk about that day, in terms of your feelings, being there with the nurses, Red Cross, Donut Dollies, I know Holley Watts, I know her well. JSBC: 1:01:33 Yeah. SM: 1:01:33 Just the feeling of being there on that day? JSBC: 1:01:38 Well, I think for most women, it has come a long way. And they are they are pretty darn accepting of one another right now. No, we were not nurses, we did not do what they did. They did not do what we did. It took all of us to make that year, go away for the you know, for the guys. And it was about the men, it was not about us. And so, you know, it, the recognition from one another as females has increased a thousand fold. At one point, we were each other's enemy. You know, in Vietnam, the nurses or the Donut Dollies, or the USO people or the special services. Everybody kind of protected their own turf. But afterwards, after the-the dedication to the wall, and specifically when the dedication of the women's Memorial, it really became more of a united group. And there, many of the organizations that if you were there, we do not care. You can be, you know, be a member of this. I did receive a Presidential Award for VV, from VVA at one point. And so, you know, that made me feel pretty good. Three of us were asked to show up in Springfield convention and they gave us an award. So this is very nice recognition. You know, there is still, a lot of doors are still closed, they always will be. Whose problem is that? Is that the other side's problem or ours? I think it is the other side's problem. SM: 1:03:22 I agree, I agree. JSBC: 1:03:24 And, you know, we have many generations that have gone past now. And that is kind of cool. SM: 1:03:32 I often ask people who have been to the women's Memorial, of course, have been to the Vietnam Memorial. The first time you visited the Vietnam Memorial. I do this and I am still doing it every time I go there I, when the when the remembrance events are over, I sit in a chair before they put all the- I sit there for about an hour. And I just, I look at the wall and I am not a veteran and [inaudible] to go through but I lived through it through a college student and all of all that stuff. I see so many things on that wall. I know Jan Scruggs, I told him about this, I see what you guys did to make this wall happen. I just still do not know how they made it happen. It took, because I know his story as well as Jack Wheeler, who sadly was killed in Wilmington, Delaware a couple years back and I see the faces of Vietnamese, I see the faces of the soldiers I see the faces of the nurses I see the faces of, you know, the Red Cr- I see everything there. I-I just kind of stare at it, and it is just me. But I am wondering what other people, when they see that wall, what they see? I do not know if you if you tend to spend time there you know, I know a lot of the women go to make sure they look up the names of the 12 nurses who were there. And, but and of course, the Vietnam vets you know the guys that died by their side, Jan Scruggs has a whole section where the guys who you served with died, so he would obviously go there. JSBC: 1:05:07 Right. SM: 1:05:07 The Ia Drang Valley guys go to another section. I mean, do you? What-what do you see? Or what do you think some of the other women see when they go to that wall? JSBC: 1:05:19 I think it is going to be very personal for each one that does it. More than the wall, the massiveness of it, because we did not know a lot of their, their names, when we went to see the guys, I mean, if we tried, it hurt too much to know that it was Steve Smith, or Joe Blow, it became hairy or slick, or what, we gave them nicknames. So, I do not know who those names are there, per se. But what I do is I see the faces of the people who are looking at the wall. And I see and sense their feelings. It has it has touched so many people in different ways. That it is, it is almost a gut feeling. If somebody's in trouble, you just go over and you have to put a hand on their arm or a shoulder or, you know, look at them in the eye and just say I understand, you do not have to say anything else. SM: 1:06:30 Right. I love it when I see grandparents with parents and grandchildren. I see it more and more. And now we are talking great grandchildren- JSBC: 1:06:44 Yeah. SM: 1:06:44 -because people are living longer. JSBC: 1:06:45 Yep. SM: 1:06:46 And-and when I see kids there and-and they are pointing to a name of a grandfather that they never heard of. JSBC: 1:06:55 Right. SM: 1:06:56 It touches me. It is about [crosstalk] history, it is about never forgetting. JSBC: 1:07:01 Right. SM: 1:07:02 And I, and when I when I see that wall I, it is about remembrance. It is like what Jan Scruggs originally said, to heal a nation but most importantly to heal the families of those who died in that war, who gave- JSBC: 1:07:17 Right. SM: 1:07:18 -their ultimate sac- who paid the ultimate price for service. JSBC: 1:07:21 Yeah. SM: 1:07:22 Plus, also, to pay respects for those who are still alive and served and were never treated you know, like they should have been upon their return and, and not make it a political entity. It is about service. JSBC: 1:07:38 Yep. SM: 1:07:39 And that has, Jan has done a tremendous job in making sure that happens. Politics always comes up, you know, at some of the remembrance events about you know, Tet and the soldiers' stories in the you know, everything- politics does come up and Bill Clinton went to the wall, obviously the booing took place because he did not serve. So it was that kind of thing. But I thought the courage of Jan Scruggs and Lewis Puller to bring him to the wall on that day was important. JSBC: 1:08:08 Yeah-yeah. SM: 1:08:09 It was so important. And I was there and, and I understood why the guys were booing, but I also understood the other side. That is why I like Lewis Puller because it was Lewis, I do not know if you ever knew Lewis. He was an unbelievable veteran who did not live long enough. He wrote the brunt, I think the greatest book ever written on, you know, "Fortunate Son." And he wanted to be up there and he wanted to introduce Mr. Clinton, and he did. JSBC: 1:08:41 Good job. SM: 1:08:42 And it was about healing. And one thing, Sam, that I want to mention to you, too, is something that has always been on my mind, I would like your thoughts. Do you ever think about the healing process in terms of not only our Vietnam veterans and their families, their survivors, but also the nation as a whole? Do you think, do you think about the healing process of that war and how it really still affects us? JSBC: 1:09:11 It still affects us and I am going to share an incident with you that we could not have done a while ago. When I was teaching at the University of Connecticut at Western. I had been in the department teaching probably 10 years. One of the fellow officers from their police department used to love to come to my class and we would do a course or, you know, a session on nonverbal behavior. He was a wonderful placement, he had first experience with nonverbal, was with a Native-Native American who would not give him eye contact. So, I knew the story and I knew how to act as he has told the story. And you know, the kind of shook the kids in the classroom. They say, "Woa, we had not thought about that" type thing. And anyway, as he was cleaning up that one particular day, he was muttering and sputtering, he had to go back to the office and his boss was a hardass Vietnam vet. And I went, "Hmm." And I, I did not say anything. I just kind of looked at him and said, "He is?" And he says, "Oh, yeah, you know," and I said, "Why did not you tell me this a long time ago?" Well, when I wrote the thank you note, which I always did, to the chief of police, I, you know, said what a wonderful job has his man had done and you know blah, blah, blah. I could not resist because I sent a box of doughnuts. And-and I signed it "DD Vietnam 67-68." Well, about three, I figured I would either get parking tickets for the rest of my life over on the campus, or I was going to, you know. And three days later, the chief of police called me. And he said, “This is Chief McLaughlin.: I am like, yes, waiting for the shoe to fall. And it did not. And we started telling stories. He said, when were- you were and I told him, I said (19)67, (19)68 He said, "I was there (19)67, (19)68. Where were you in [inaudible]." He was in Nha Trang when I was in Nha Trang. And one evening, I was going into a restaurant with an officer, we were going to dinner, there was a scuffle and a bang. I mean, it is a war zone. Not a big deal. And we went into the restaurant to obviously get out of the way. And we heard that a 14 year old kid had been shot. Nothing ever happened of it. I mean, nothing in Vietnam ever came of the whole thing. I am talking to the chief of police from my university. And he says as I am telling them the story about going into a restaurant and there was a kid shot. He said, "Stop, the hair on my arms is up." That kid was 14 years old. And I just stopped and held my breath. And he said, "I was MP on duty that shot him." SM: 1:12:08 Holy cow. JSBC: 1:12:11 And, I mean, it was, you know, it was like, "Ughhh." We met at a ceremony that they were holding a couple of weeks later, I still did not know who the man was. And I walked in, some of the cops are there and I said, "Where is the chief?" and they said, "He is out there." As soon as I walked through the door, and he saw me, he broke into tears. This is a huge burly guy. And he is just sobbing. And he grabbed me and you know, just sobbed and sobbed. And suddenly, you know, they finally got his act together again. And because they have ceremonies to do, he had to, to lead the group. So afterwards, we got talking. We became very good friends. And we were good friends for about four years and he developed cancer and then eventually he died. He left the campus and he died. When we went to the funeral, the cops are standing Color Guard [inaudible], and then walked down and they said, "No wisecracks from you, no wisecracks from you, no wise- [laughs] you know, this is a serious event." And I said, "No problem, no problem." I did my, you know, my honors, and got over towards his family, and his sister grabbed me. And she said, I want you to know that Neil McLachlan was a name, that Neil was a [inaudible] SOB until that day. And after he met you, and found out that he had saved lives, his whole life changed. SM: 1:13:43 Wow. JSBC: 1:13:45 And it was just like, I guess you never know when it is going to happen. But Neil was very special. And when he passed away then, we got him a memorial stone at the State Capitol in, in Connecticut and Hartford. And we have now moved to Plymouth, Massachusetts. Neil is buried 20 minutes from here. And it is just like "Do-do-do-do-do-do" so my husband and I for Veterans Day, drove down to the cemetery. And we went to see Neil, and we laid stones, and we laid, actually we laid coins on his grave to remember him. SM: 1:14:22 What a memory, what a story. JSBC: 1:14:24 Yeah, it is just like, you never know- SM: 1:14:27 Nope. JSBC: 1:14:28 -when it is going to happen, or what meaning it is going to have to somebody. SM: 1:14:33 Wow. JSBC: 1:14:35 So that is, you know, that is kind of a neat story about just that connection that you develop. SM: 1:14:42 Yeah. Wow. Have you put that in writing? JSBC: 1:14:47 I have not. I have not. I have told a couple people about it. And I have written a book about the Civil War women but it does not- [inaudible] SM: 1:14:56 Yeah, that is what my next question- JSBC: 1:14:58 -does not come up in that book. SM: 1:15:00 I am just going to- JSBC: 1:15:00 But no, several people I have told about that. And you know, it is just one of those profound life experiences that you have that I mean, it was so simple that night. It was a gunshot and he was EMP. SM: 1:15:15 My gosh, I only got maybe three more questions. When I was talking about the wall, what I, I kind of write down things after every time I visit the wall and, and Memorial Day and Veteran's Day. I also go to the World War Two Memorial for my dad who was not allowed to see it. JSBC: 1:15:37 Okay. SM: 1:15:38 The two things that came up to my mind every time I go to the wall in Washington is, American heroes. JSBC: 1:15:46 Okay. SM: 1:15:46 American heroes, number one, but then unnecessary death. Looking at the war, and-and I also feel sad for the Vietnamese who died, because I see a lot of Vietnamese lives were lost. JSBC: 1:16:04 Right, yep. SM: 1:16:05 And I have talked to enough Vietnam veterans now who have gone back to Vietnam. And they can empathize with Vietnamese soldiers, just like they can with the American soldiers. JSBC: 1:16:19 Yeah. SM: 1:16:20 You know, they were doing their duty, they were called to war and they were serving their nation. So I kind of leave it at that. I am going to maybe conclude here with, I would like to know about your book. "The Women of City Point, Virginia, 1864- 1865." JSBC: 1:16:37 Correct. SM: 1:16:38 And how that might be linked to Vietnam. JSBC: 1:16:40 Very easy. Back in the (19)80s, we were doing a peripatetic form for southern New England telephone. There were eight of us that the Veterans Center in New Haven, Connecticut had put together and we would go out and talk. This is when awareness about feelings and your family started. And we would go out and talk to the families of people from southern New England telephone, about the Vietnam experience. And one of the guys [inaudible], Joe Mariani ,was working for a bank, and they were cleaning out a vaul- vault one day, and he saw "Women in the War" by Frank Moore, it was a (18)65-(18)66 book. He asked if we could have it, they said, "Yes," he eventually got it and gave it to me. I opened it and like Neil, the hair on my arms went up. I said, I know these women. I know, you know, the sights, the sounds, the smells. I know these women. Long story short, Fred said, you cannot write about everybody in the Civil War, and one of those transfers to Virginia for his job, Civil War territory. We had, you could go out in the backyard and find bullets in your backyard. So I started to manage, I was still going to school, I managed to do a research internship with the National Park Service down there. We started with 12 women. When I left we had 177, then I did an exhibit for the park service. And I wrote an article for Virginia cavalcade magazine. And everybody kept saying, and it just kept snowballing. I mean, I could not leave the women alone. And I had hundreds of them. And so they finally said, you know, proverbial expression, you know, something or other get off the pot type thing. So I started writing the book, and I tell the stories, I could see the difference of the women's jobs and roles because of my experiences. And I understood not all of them were nurses, like women in Vietnam, we were not all nurses. And I started writing it like the stories I would tell people that would come to the park service, to city point. And so their stories, as well as research at the end of what happened to a lot of these ladies. I had approached a lot of different publishing companies. And finally, McFarland said, "Sure, we will publish the book," I nearly fell off my chair, but and so I wrote it. And there are no pictures in it because of copyright issues, we could not do that. So, it is just the stories, but it is of eight different groups of women basically. And frequently, I just did a lecture or presentation to the Civil War group here about the book and the different roles of the women. And it is, you know, they are just fun stories, there is sad stories, there is sweet stories they are you know, difficult stories for some people to tell. But I have done it and I am working on a couple other things. [Inaudible] lady that was from Connecticut, who is a courier for Judah P. Benjamin. And I will do another presentation in the spring, well April I think I am doing that one and throwing it out so that the guys from the group can put their input into, what am I missing? What-what I, do I not have in this? So, it is just kind of been a love of life that has gone from it. But it all started with a book from, you know, women in the war. SM: 1:20:29 Golly. I bet Diane Carlson Evans would love that book. JSBC: 1:20:33 Ah, I bet she would. Yeah. SM: 1:20:36 I might email or a let her know or whatever. I am not in touch with her. But I could certainly- JSBC: 1:20:43 And of course, it came out right as COVID started. SM: 1:20:46 Right. JSBC: 1:20:46 Went into lockdown. [laughs] SM: 1:20:49 My last. My last question is this, and this is I started this a couple of interviews ago. Since this, these interviews that I am doing are going to be listened to by people who are not even alive yet. The goal of the Center for the Study of the (19)60s is to create a really powerful digital center of its kind for research and scholarship, which is what Binghamton University is all about too and, and national scholars so that people will come here to not only listen to tapes, but to study and study this period. We hope to get PhD students eventually, they are going to be hiring a director, a PhD, who will be the director, but also work with Dean Curtis Kendrick, who is the head of the library, and I am running this whole thing. And-and so I am trying to, losing my train of thought here, you ever had that happen? JSBC: 1:21:43 Never-never, never. SM: 1:21:47 What, it is a message, it is the message that you would like to give to those who are listening to this 20 and 30 years from now, even the ones today, of course, but 20 and 30, based on your experiences in Vietnam, and what you have learned in your life, what message would you like to give to those who are listening to your interview 10, 20, 30 and 40 years from now? JSBC: 1:22:13 Oh, gosh, there is an inner strength in each of us, I think that most people never even tap into. And that strength will get you through a lot of difficult times. And life is going to be difficult. There are going to be some very difficult times in life. You can learn I mean, you have a choice, you can go forward. Or you can go backwards and being able to say, "Okay, things are not good today, things are wrong things are whatever it might be." And Heaven only knows what it is going to be 20 years from now. But we have a choice, we can go forward. And how are you going to do that? There is a direction that you can move in, and it is your choice to make that direction. I think that is one of the lessons I learned in Vietnam. SM: 1:23:08 Well, Sam, very, thank you very much for spending this hour and a half with me. JSBC: 1:23:12 No problem. SM: 1:23:13 And I am going to turn the tape off right now, and thanks again. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. 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Title A name given to the resource Dr. Jeanne Marie "Sam" Bokina Christie IIIF Item Metadata UUID 6a478c59-4f2b-4b54-85bf-8d0f015d5bb8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b30c89a5813b9d22d31c1eeaefa00516.jpeg 9ae9c7c486a266cfd0ecd9783b0f57e9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1f1b722cee46c878573c33824a41b481.MP3 584c1cd4f2ae5cf6c812e5e9c9802a29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-01-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Thomas Grace Biographical Text Thomas Grace, a native of Syracuse, NY, is an educator and activist. Grace was one of nine students wounded and four students killed during the Kent State shooting. He graduated in 1972 with a Bachelor's Degree in History. He also earned a degree in Social Work from SUNY Buffalo. He worked for many years as a social worker and union representative. After his retirement, Grace received a Ph.D. in History from SUNY Buffalo. He is currently serving as Adjunct Professor of History at Erie Community College. He is the author of Kent State: Death &amp; Dissent In The Long Sixties. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:36:15 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Kent State shooting; Student protest; Activism; College campus. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Thomas Grace Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 26 January 2022 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:03 Again, Tom, thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview. I would like to start out like I normally do with all my interviews, if you could kind of describe your early years before college, where you grew up, your parents background, some of your early adventures or any major happenings that kind of sent you in a different direction, life's path, your high school years. What was it like in those early years? TG: 00:31 Well, I was born five years after the war, March 2nd, (19)50. And I knew none of this at the time. But we were also just a few months away from the start of another war in Korea in June of (19)50. When I was born, I was the oldest of, as it turned out to be four children. The parents of Thomas V Grace, V as in Victor, and my mother, actually, her name was Helen Collette. And she did not like that name, Helen. So she dropped out or used to just sign her name H. Colette Grace. She is a Binghamton native; my father was a Syracuse native. They met at Syracuse University after the war, and I think in a biology class and were married (19)49 and I came along in 1950. He was the son of a disabled railroad worker, and an English teacher who was, who seldom taught. That was on my father's side, my mother's side, her parents were both immigrants from Slovakia. And he had worked on the railroad and her mother had been a homemaker in Binghamton. They, they went through, of course, the travails of the Great Depression, which was harder on my father's family than it was on my mother's. Binghamton seemed; they had a kind of a welfare capitalism that was practiced in Binghamton with a lot of the major industries there. They did not seem to have the unemployment that Syracuse did. And I mentioned this because it had a profound effect on my father's political values. He and his siblings and his parents saw the New Deal policies as having saved their family, providing work for his older brothers in the Civilian Conservation Corps. distributing free food on Saturdays, where they would go down and stand in line, pick up the free food. And like, like we see so common today, although now people just drive up in their cars to pick it up. But then you stood in line, there was a welfare caseworker that came to the house that would inspect my father's clothes to see how they were holding up and to see if there was enough coal in the bin. But they did not, they, the only home that they had they lost because they could not, could not keep up with the payments and the banks failed. So, whatever modest savings they had, they lost. And he just, oh, and-and after they lost the house, they-they wound up having to move all the time, because either the rents would go up and they could not make the rent, and then they would have to try to find some other place to live. So he actually lived all of his life in Syracuse. But while he was growing up, up until the time he was 18, I think they moved 11 times. Always on the south side of Syracuse, which was kind of a Irish American, African American neighborhood. He seemed to have good relationships with African Americans, went to an African American dentist, and then worked on the railroad while he was putting himself through school. He was 4F for the draft, his older brother did-did serve, was missing in action and was able to get back home okay. The other brother was also 4F as well. So he was putting himself through school working on the railroad. And you got to know a lot of the porters, they are known as red caps. And they were, that was the principal African American union in the country, A. Philip Randolph Union. SM: 04:43 Yes. TG: 04:43 And they he learned a lot from them. I remember a few years before he died, I asked him how he came to have such a deep and fairly profound understanding of the questions of race in the United States when, when so few white people seem to possess that, because he was not coming at it from an ideological perspective. He was coming at it from a class perspective, which, of course, has an ideology. But he did not, he did not. He was not an ideologue in any way. Although he was a partisan New Dealer. And asking him about this experience 50 years later, he proceeded to give me the name, so about half a dozen of these guys that he had worked with. And he had not seen them for 50 years. So, it is obvious that those relationships were meaningful to him- SM: 05:38 Wow, yes. TG: 05:38 -if you can, if he could remember all of that information all those years later. My mother was not, she was more of an emotional thinker, my father was, he was guided more by his intellect. They too suffered during the war, her brother was killed on, on Iwo Jima on George Washington's birthday in 1945. So you know, one time there was an M.I.A. in the family and another who had been killed. But as they said, my father's oldest brother was able to get back home, his pilot, his plane went down over China when they were flying on gasoline from India and China, flying over an area called Hump. So, I grew up with all these stories. I know, this is a long digression that I just gave you. But I grew up with a lot of these stories, and they kind of formed me. I also learned when I was about 10, or 11 years of age from my grandmother, this is my father's mother who I was close to, who had been the English teacher, that we had two of our ancestors who fought in the American Civil War. And I was coming of age during the Civil War Centennial, (19)61, (18)61. And, of course, the Civil Rights Movement was taking off. So, I am trying to figure out why the country could fight a war against slavery 100 years before, and we have all these unfinished issues. It did not, did not make a whole lot of sense to me as a preteen and adolescence. So, it is one of the things that caused me to start reading. And I mean, it was not until college that I really started to figure all this out. But these were things that I remember that puzzled me. And to some extent, my father could help me understand it, but he did not have a degree in history either. So it takes a lot of study to figure this out, as you know. So we grew up in a working class Italian American neighborhood, although no one in our family. My father was Irish, my mother was Slovak, so we did not have that background. But in other respects, and despite the fact that both my parents had gone to college, that was a rarity in our neighborhood, I think we were the only family on the block, the whole blocks that, where anyone not only graduated from college, but had attended college. I went to a Catholic grammar school, oddly called St. St. Daniel's school, SDS for short. SM: 07:07 Yes. Wow. [chuckles] TG: 08:10 Those initials would take on a new meaning once I got to college. SM: 08:12 Right. TG: 08:13 And then we did not have high school, in our neighborhoods. So the kids went all over the city to different places. So my parents selected a Catholic all Boys High School, it was college preparatory, it was about 10, 12 miles away. I would take a bus there every day. I did not really care for that experience at all. Although I had had all my all my schooling to that point had been in parochial schools. And I just wanted by the time I got to college, I wanted to do something different. I felt like I wanted to get away. You asked me about remarkable experiences growing up. I do not really think I had any I had a pretty ordinary childhood, I was very devoted to the game of baseball, which I still am today. I was a kid of modest talent, though, in terms of playing the game. But that did not dim my enthusiasm. And I went to the high school, as I told you and my father at that point had, by the time I was starting to get ready for college, he was a social services administrator at a facility that cared for the developmentally disabled in Syracuse and called the Syracuse [inaudible] school. And there was a great shortage of social workers in the country at the time. So, the federal government had a policy that if someone was had graduated from college that did not have a background, irrespective of what their background had been, they could have been a music major, they could have been a Phys Ed teacher, they could have been a sociology major, which would have been fine. Whatever their background, if they took a job up, working in social services. And that and applied, had applied and been accepted for a master's program in social work, then the federal government would, would pay for, for their two years of schooling with the understanding that they would return to their former place of employment over the summer, and then remain there for five years. And then the loan would be complete, or they, they would not have to pay back the cost of their schooling. So there was a guy such as that, that my father had hired who was a recent graduate of Kent State. So he told me about the school and that put it on my radar. SM: 10:43 Oh, all right. TG: 10:44 Three other places where I also wanted to study Civil War history, because I looked over the college catalogs, you know, when they came to get a sense of what their history departments were like, and Kent State was a large school, which I wanted to go to, it was, it was called coeducational. And it was the closest of the four schools that I had applied to. So that is where I went. SM: 11:11 It is interesting, when you talked about your father. You know, when you study the life of Dr. King, and what he went through in his 39 years, you know, he certainly fighting injustice and things like that, but he has brought up the whole issue of class, and poverty and all these other things. And so, he was often criticized for not just concentrating on the race issue, but on class issues. So your father was, well, he was a person that kind of was like Dr. King in a way. I-I, I would like to ask you this: did you ever feel during your first 18 years or even into your college years, that you belonged to a generation that was never before, it was, it was considered very unique. I can remember going to college right here at Binghamton, and I have talked with so many friends and they felt that there was this feeling that this youth of today, this 74 million that came out after World War Two, the sons and daughters of the boomer gen of the World War Two generation, were different. Especially the front edge boomers, those first 10 years between the- born between (19)60, excuse me, (19)46 and (19)57. Did you did you feel when you were young that you were part of something that was different and unique when you were, as a youth as a person, [inaudible] your peers? TG: 12:41 I do, I do not recall it. And oldest children are often the inheritors of tradition. And in that regard, I was no exception. And I took an interest in what had gone before. What, what my parents had been through, and I think may have failed to mention that my mother was a Binghamton native. No, I did not, I did mention that- SM: 13:09 Yes. TG: 13:11 -to the welfare capitalism that was practiced by the industries. But I was interested in what their lives had been like. And I was I was taken by the military experiences of men on both sides of my family and then on my ancestors. So, I was I was, I think through that prism of familial experience. I became interested in my own family's role and the development of the history of the country. And certainly learning that about my ancestors who had fought and both of them died in civil war. We recently discovered a third who did survive, he was with he was in the famous march through Georgia with Sherman. He was the only one of the three ancestors in the civil war that survived the experience. But all of those things were very formative to me. And in other respects, the things that I was interested in besides history and reading, you know, and just playing with my friends, was baseball. Play, I would play that all spring summer and fall. Just go down to the playground, there would be a bunch of guys there, we would choose up teams and you know, I played little league as well, but I played baseball from the time that I was about eight. I did have, when you asked before about adventures, but the biggest calamity that befell me when I was the young person is that I had something wrong with my hip, it was called a Legg Perthes, which my father had as well. And I believe it is not an inherited or genetic problem. But they had caused me to have to be in traction for a year. So you know, I got through with, with tutors. And when I, at the school I had to be on crutches for about a year while my leg was put in this kind of harness to keep some pressure off of it. So yeah, that was that was that was, that was something I had to kind of learn to get through, kids are pretty resilient. Not, and I was and I got by that. But I only mentioned that because I otherwise would have started playing baseball even sooner than I did. But as it turns out, I was not able to start playing until I was eight, because of this Legg Perthes, which kind of sidelined me for about two years. But in terms of the generational I remember thinking that maybe when I, it was in my very late teens, and start of college, because there were certainly other people that were saying that and-and there were a lot of stories about the effect of the baby boomer generation and-and then there was Kennedy's oration at his inauguration. SM: 16:10 Yes. TG: 16:11 So, I did feel in that respect, and is I think, a little further in response to your question that, that we did have an obligation, but I did not see myself as part of a, being so much special is I did carrying on a continuity that other people had carried before me. We all have a role to play here. And it is our, you know, it is, it is our time now. SM: 16:41 Right. TG: 16:41 But I did not see ourselves as separate and apart and distinct and better, any of that kind of stuff. SM: 16:51 Did you-? TG: 16:51 Later-later, I did feel that because so many people had had a formative experience by being part of the Civil Rights and anti-war movements, that that that generation would ultimately make its own mark and affect the generations that came after us. But that clearly did not happen. And I thought for maybe about when I got into my 30s or so that that still might occur. But then I realized that in some respects, we were different from those who went before us, and rather different from those who came after us. SM: 16:52 Right. TG: 16:55 And even our own generation. There was there was a generational divide within the baby boomers. SM: 17:43 I agree. TG: 17:44 There were people who had experiences that caused them to become left wing and-and sympathetic to people of color, and then later gender differences, et cetera, et cetera. But there were an awful lot of people who are born in the late (19)40s and (19)50s that do not think that way and seldom did. They may have adopted some of the cultural trappings of it, that our generation won the cultural war and lost the political and economic one. SM: 18:18 Well, you raised something, a question I did not even have here, the young Americans for freedom, which was a conservative organization during the Vietnam War. When I spoke to Dr. Harry, Dr. Edwards, Lee Edwards, in Washington, DC, he talked about the fact that when all the books are written on the (19)60s, what is left out are the conservative antiwar activists, and- TG: 18:44 Well, there have been books dedicated to that subject. SM: 18:47 Right. But the key thing I wanted to ask is that you brought up the fact that the continuity of understanding the generation that preceded you, what your parents did, and your responsibility to carry on, there was that term that we heard all the time that there was a big generation gap going on. Was there any generation gap going on within your family over what was happening in the (19)60s, especially the antiwar protests and civil rights and all the other movements? Was, was there any divisions I call it divisions within the family and, and divisions with your peers? TG: 19:26 I do not remember divisions really with-with my peers, the-the tension in our household was over the length of my hair. Not-not my politics, and I wanted to have longer hair and my father insisted that I keep it you know, kind of like, what they used to refer to as a Princeton haircut. So I was, there was always a big issue. I would go to the barber, and I would come home, and he would say, "You [inaudible] you did not cut off you know, you got to go." You know, so went through all of that. But in terms of my politics, I really inherited my-my father's politics. He did not really think a whole lot about the international situation. He was not, he was not pro- I would not say that he was pro-war. He was not, he was not all that anti-war. I do remember what a conversation that I have had with him, though that may help to answer your question. I remember saying to him, "Dad, I understand that the Black people have it really bad in this country." And I may, may or may not have used the word "oppressed," for a long time. But I understand now that a lot of them in this group SNCC, do not want to go into the service. And if they want to be part of this country, then they should help to defend it. That, that is how, so I had kind of a Cold War mentality, you might say, I did not really fully understand what Vietnam was about, and turn against the war, until I had been in school at Kent State for about five or six months. And that did not really come, that was complicated. I addressed it in the book that I wrote on Kent State. SM: 19:48 Right. [laughs] What a great book you wrote too. TG: 21:22 Well, thank you. SM: 21:23 The best book ever written on Kent State. TG: 21:25 Well, I appreciate you saying that, Steve. I worked at it a long time. So I always tell people, I better get it right when I spent over 10 years working on it. But I remember saying that to my father, and he looked at me and he said, "You know, they should be the last people to go to Vietnam," he said, "The country has done the least for them, that continues to do the least for them." He may have pointed out the disproportionate level of casualties that African Americans suffered during the first couple of years in the war. It was up in I think, in that high teens or low 20s, when they only represented about maybe 12, 13 percent of the population. He said, he said, "Let the rich kids' sons fight this war." He always look, his attitude was that a lot of white people are poor. Almost all Black people are poor. We, we need to band together to fight the rich that oppress us all. That was that was kind of his mentality. Again, he was not an ideologue, he did not, if he ever read anything about Karl Marx, I would be astonished. Because he never had those, he never came in contact with anybody that ever would have introduced him, you know, to those kinds of ideas. But what he did have was this "School of Hard Knocks" that he did, he grew up in poor and even though when he went to college, he always had that kind of class edge to him. And if he heard people putting down poor people, oh it used to send him off, really-really made him angry. Because he had been poor, he-he knew what it was like to-to, to-to endure, those, they are often invisible injuries. But I think he experienced them growing up and it never left him. SM: 23:34 I am going to ask this question, [inaudible], there is kind of divided into four areas, but it is just your overall perceptions of an era during the time that boomers have been alive. When you describe the era (19)45 to (19)60, what comes to mind in your view? TG: 23:53 Well, a lot of things I remember watching, used to be a program on television called the 20th century. And it was usually devoted to World War Two. So I watched, I remember watching that a lot. I remember as a little boy being taken down to the train station, when my cousin Dick was, he was in his uniform. And he was leaving for service during the Korean War, but he was being sent to Germany. But there was this sense. I could feel this like tension and unease when we were seeing him off at the train station like this is not good, that he is about to be departing on something that might be bad for the family. And, of course, he had a pretty ordinary experience in Germany. You know, nothing bad happened to him there. But when you are three or four and you at best, have an imperfect understanding of what is going on, I remember that that had quite an impact on me. I remember seeing President- well then Senator Kennedy, in a motorcade in Syracuse, New York, and this probably would have been in this springtime, of (19)60. And our family was really taken up with, with his candidacy. My father saw it as an opportunity for the, for Irish Catholic Americans to, to break through in a country that had been dominated by white Protestants. And, you know, we were just absolutely thrilled when-when he was when he was elected. We are going to keep this before (19)60? SM: 25:49 Yeah, I am done. The next the next part of this question is when you describe the era of (19)60 to (19)75 what comes to mind? And I, I want to state that this center here at what at Binghamton University, is dedicated to the (19)60s to the (19)75 era. TG: 26:06 Okay. Well, certainly, the presidential assassination was just a horrible, horrible event. It just, it just plunged our, the whole country but our family in particular, I do not think the TV was off for, you know, as long as we were awake for that bet that weekend of November 22, of (19)63. And I remember, one of the things that kind of helped lift that mood, a number of months later, when the English invasion occurred, and the Beatles just exploded. And if I felt like kind of a generational pulse, it was, we were just like- I remember my sister and I, my sister is about slightly less than two years younger than I am- Irish twins, as it were. We were both like, very taken with the Beatles. And I started like buying a lot of rock'n'roll albums. So I remember that, watched a lot of television as a kid, a lot of western movies. One author refers to it as the victory culture that we grew up with. And I certainly grew up with that as well. But I, I did pay a lot of attention to Civil Rights. I remember the horrible scenes of the Children's Crusade in Birmingham, in the spring of (19)63. That, of course, occurred months before the Kennedy assassination. I remember watching King's, some of King's speech in (19)63. And in the summer of (19)64, I remember the Civil Rights workers, quote, unquote, disappearing and Mississippi, and the efforts that President Johnson, then President Johnson was making to get the civil rights legislation passed. And I will add as a parenthetical here, that when I started graduate school in social work, I had a professor by the name of Fred Newton. And Fred's first job in social work was to take the position that Andrew Shriner, Shriner had, I am mispronouncing his name but- SM: 26:56 Right, (19)64. Schwerner. TG: 28:36 Schwerner, Schwerner, thank you. Schwerner had held in New York. And, and that was stunning to me. At the time, I was about 23 when I when I learned this, but I had paid close attention to all of those developments. You and also in the summer of (19)64, President Johnson came to Syracuse, New York to dedicate the Newhouse School of Communication. And that was right around the time of the Gulf, Gulf of Tonkin incident. In fact, I think he was flying back to Washington to give his joint address or give his address to the joint houses of Congress. So the speech that he gave in Syracuse was kind of like a dress rehearsal for that. And I was, I think that was one of the things that had an adverse effect on my understanding of the war in Vietnam, because I saw Johnson as carrying on Kennedy's legacy. And here he was speaking so forcefully about the war in Vietnam, which I again, imperfectly-imperfectly understood, in fact I understood it very poorly, to be very blunt about it. And even though I read Newsweek magazine on a weekly basis, whenever it came to the house and looked at photos in Life magazine, we did, we did get a lot of magazines and newspapers in the house. So I had a rich childhood in that respect. I understood the military aspect of the Vietnam War, but I did not understand the political aspect of it. So that had a deleterious effect on my political understanding of Vietnam, until I got to college- SM: 28:47 Wow. Right. TG: 29:02 -and met some people who-who had fought in the war and other people who knew a lot about the history of French colonialism. And all-all of those things, helped open my- those experiences and those encounters with people helped open my eyes to what the Vietnam War was all about. Let us see, I mentioned the cultural and musical aspects of the (19)60s I, I did develop an affinity for rhythm and blues and rock and roll and, and blues music. So I started to, I had quite a record collection by the time I started Kent. Of course, then there was the experience of the (19)70s shootings. When, by the time Cambodia was invaded, I was I had been very, very deeply involved in the Vietnam War protest movement, both on the campus and attending demonstrations as far west as Chicago, up to Cleveland, which was about 35 miles to, from Kent. And had been to Washington DC, for several antiwar protests by the time Cambodia was invaded. I also had a roommate at Kent State, whose name was Alan Canfora, who I believe you interviewed as well. SM: 32:02 Oh, Alan is the best. TG: 32:03 And he, by being a year older than me, and much bolder, I tend to be a reticent individual, somewhat introverted. Introversion, I am sure does not come out in the course of an interview, because I am discussing things with a fellow, or my life with a fellow historian, I know how to impose chronological order on one's past. So, the introversion really does not come out. But Alan was, [phone buzzes] was a very extroverted individual, who is also a very bold individual. In fact, I think it is not too much to say that he was a truly audacious person. So it was impossible not to become immersed in what was going on at that time, when you had a person who had views that were similar, but was so willing to take action on what he believed. And he also came from a family that, in many respects, was a carbon copy of my own. While neither one of his parents went to college, his-his father had been a union, a union leader, and a very partisan, ardent Democrat. His mother had been a nurse, like my own mother, although she her training as a nurse came in the United States Army, whereas my mother's was, you know she, she got her training at Pittsburgh, University of Pittsburgh and Syracuse University. And we, at that point, we were both against the war in Vietnam. And then, and Alan was also a year older than I was, and that it does not seem like a big difference. But there is a major difference between someone who is just starting college, someone already been in college for a year. SM: 32:11 Right, I agree. TG: 32:46 So, in, in a lot of ways he was he was kind of like my older, older, slightly older brother. And if, and if he, if he was the captain, I was his first mate. SM: 34:12 Yeah, very well said, I miss him tremendously. And, you know, I only saw him once a year when I come to the, to the remembrance events, but knowing that I will never see him again really upsets me. Because we always had some really good conversations. Since we are talking about Kent State now, I was going to ask this later on, but I got a lot of different questions outside of Kent State, but I want, since we are in it right now, could you talk about the atmosphere at the campus upon arrival there as a brand-new student? Did you sense right away that this was a lot different than any of my experiences before, that during those first five months on campus leading up to the terrible tragedy at the end of the year? TG: 35:01 Well, I started in the fall of (19)68. So, it was right after the Democratic Convention, which I have watched on television, and was horrifying, you know, to see people beaten that way. I was not necessarily in sympathy with what they were doing but it was appalling what the police did to the demonstrators there. And so that that was fresh in my mind, because that was the end of August, and we, Kent was on a quarter system. So we were starting school in late September. So it was approximately a month later. In fact, it was exactly a month later, I think. So we took, my father and I took the long drive out there, he dropped me off in the dorm, brought all my records in, and Alan may have told you the story. But I was I was playing John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers. And I have been playing Cream. And he could hear this music from a couple of rooms down the hall. So he came down to see who was playing the music and came in and introduced himself. And that is how we-we met, and we became fast friends. And, and soon, we were doing everything together. So I remember that as being an important experience. And I also had a friend that I met during the summer orientation, who was from Cleveland, his name was Jimmy. And I introduced him to Alan, so three of us became friends. And that friendship only deepened over the course of the year, although we did not see him as much because he did not live in the dorm, he lived off campus. In terms of the wider campus, I mean, it was it was nice going to school with girls, for the first time since I had been 13, or 14. And I did not really have that much of an interest in girls when I was when I was, you know, in my very early teens, but I had girlfriends in high school, of course and all. So that was really nice. And I was enjoying the classes that I took, particularly the history and political science classes. And the English classes, I was a double major in history and political science and English. I remember two political experiences. SDS held a meeting soon after the start of the fall quarter. And I went to that it was very well attended. There were a lot of people that were still juiced up from the Democratic convention. And there were probably 12, 15 of the people who had been there and experienced, some of them and experience that violence firsthand, had been locked up and threatened with their lives in the police station. So it was, it had been a significant emotional experience for the people who went there. And they understandably enough, emerged as the leaders of the chapter. But once they started talking about New Left ideology, I did not really get that I did not really understand at all. And I do not think I stayed for the entire meeting because I eventually became bored with it, because it did not resonate enough with me. Shortly thereafter, with Ohio being such a political battleground, I had the opportunity to hear someone speak on the campus who was there on behalf of the Humphrey campaign. And it was the first time in my life that I ever heard an intellectual speak, it was Carey McWilliams. And I thought to myself, what a privilege it is to hear a man have such rich experience and such, possesses such a towering intellect speak. And I said to myself, this is the kind of experience that I want to have more of as a college student. And I was impressed too with how he handled a person who had been beaten in the streets of Chicago, who spoke against the Democrats and-and Hubert Humphrey. The, McWilliams was sympathetic to what the man had to say. But he also said that all of the different, despite all the differences that have emerged, and have fractured the party, we have to come together against the person who is really a threat to the to our entire order that we have, that we have come to know since the since the Depression and World War Two and that is the New Deal and everything that it is done for the American people. That made sense to me, you know, to put all of that in perspective. So I became involved with the Humphrey campaign, I went to a blood bank and gave a pint of blood and then to use the $25 that I was given and I donated that to the Humphrey campaign. I got to hear the vice president speak and shake his hand about a week before the presidential election, because, of course, Ohio is being so sharply contested. And I also, working with a political science professor, went door to door for Humphrey in some of the working class neighborhoods in Akron to try to get out to vote for him. You know, I had some tough experiences there, but I, you know, people threatening me, you know, you run into lawless people here and there. But, you know, I, it was unnerving, but I stayed with it. And, and then Nixon also came to Northeast Ohio. And along with Alan Canfora, I went there to protest against him with the Young Democrats. I was a member of the Young Democrats, I was not a member of SDS. But SDS showed up in large numbers there, there was a very small number of Young Democrats, and they disrupted Nixon's talk. So, Alan, I remember him saying, "Tom Grace," he said, "Let us go out with those guys." So, we left the Young Democrats, and we spent the rest of the Nixon speech with-with the SDS who are just yelling and screaming, protesting Nixon. And Time Magazine said it was the most significant disruption of Nixon campaign event during the entire campaign. SM: 40:22 Wow-wow. TG: 40:34 So-so I, you know, I had a lot of rich, excuse me, I had a lot of rich experiences, packed into a few short months. And that only takes us up till you know, the presidential election, which I watched and was still in doubt when I went to bed that night. Of course the next day we learned, you know, the outcome. And within a couple of weeks after that, the Oakland Police Department came to Kent State to recruit for their police force. This is the same police force that shot and wounded Eldridge Cleaver and killed 17 year old Bobby Hutton, around the same time as the King assassination was completely overshadowed, of course by the King assassination. But SDS and the Black United Students banded together and blocked the recruiting, which created this massive crisis on the campus because the university administration said that they would be moving to sanction all the people who participated and perhaps expel them from school. Alan had gone into the area where the recruiting was going on and helped block it. I did not, which says a lot about the two of us, you know, him being a year older, prepared to take bolder steps, not as interested in education at that time, as I was. I was more focused on getting a degree and having a career in history. Alan was in school largely, so he did not have to go to Vietnam. Like so many of his friends had from town of Barberton, industrial city of Barberton where he grew up. So, he participated, and I did not-I was sympathetic to it, I agreed with what the people were doing. But I figured if I go in that building, I am going to get arrested. As it turns out, no one was arrested. Because all of the Black students on the campus of which there were about 600, to about 650, left in mass and said that they would not return to campus unless, until charges were-were dropped, or the threat of charges were dropped against all the participants. The university said, "No, we are not going to do that." But SDS predicted that with regard to the university administration, that they were going to come under immense pressure. And a lot of the professors were going to say that they did not want to be teaching at an all-white campus. And that is exactly what some of the professors started to say. Either they adopted the SDS mindset and rhetoric or whether they came to it, that same position on their own, I do not know. But the NAACP, and-and other advocates for African Americans started joining the calls to just put this whole thing behind them. Whereas people on the right were saying "No, they should be expelled." So, the president of the university, Robert White was in a rather difficult position as he had been throughout his tenure of getting flak from both the left and the right. But he decided in this particular case that he was going to listen to those of his advisers that were, in effects saying that, that amnesty needed to be granted. They did not call it that, because they would have been too charged the term, all they said was that they did not have enough evidence to press charges against people, which was really ludicrous because they had taken photographs of everyone. But that is what they, that was their face-saving explanation. So as it turns out, no one was charged. And that had a profound effect, not only on me, but a lot of other people. Because we grew up, we tend to grow up in a country that that that insists that you cannot fight city hall, that if there is something amiss in the society that you are trying to overcome, it is very hard to do anything about that. But we knew differently, having viewed what the Civil Rights Movement had accomplished up to that point. And then we had this experience where Black and white students stood together, each drawing power from the other, and not only blocking the Oakland police from recruiting on the campus, but also being able to stand together and force the university to cede the possibility of any charges being filed against the participants. SM: 46:22 See, this brings up the- and I have been to the remembrance events for many, many years. And before I came to Kent State for the first time, you may have heard this around the country, especially the couple years after the tragedy of the murder, what I call the murders at Kent State. And that is, that why did this happen at Kent State of all universities? This, in this conservative state of Ohio, at Kent State, why did it happen? Well, I was at Ohio State, so I know there is a lot of protests going on there. But I also know that Ohio University in Athens had always been given the name as the most liberal of the schools, where there was massive protests, even when I was working there in my early career. And you have just given some of the greatest examples of the activism that was taking place at Kent State, basically, you know, stating the truth about that this was a high- because of all the, the information you just given, that activism was alive and well. And-and, you know, having the older student like Alan and the younger student coming in, it was like the whole perception of the (19)60s was, it was always the graduate students that were kind of the leaders, and it was the undergraduates who were learning from them. Your-your descriptions are, are fantastic in terms of what Kent State was way before the tragedy of May 4 of (19)70. And I would like to ask this too about the president, President White, when I was read the first book, which is not a very good book, James Michener's book on Kent State, which came out I think in (19)71 with so much misinformation. It is, it is not even good anymore. But however, there was some strong criticism of President White in the book. And correct me if I am wrong, was he away the weekend of May 4th at a conference? TG: 48:26 Yes, it was for the American College. It was it was the ACT- forgot, I forgot that the what the acronym stood-stood for fully, American college testing, it might have been. And he was there that weekend. But he- SM: 48:45 But yeah- TG: 48:46 -he also- SM: 48:46 -I always thought that was terrible leadership on the part of a university president when a crisis was happening, and he was not there. TG: 48:54 Yes, but he dealt with crises by absenting himself from, he would abdicate in effect, leadership. And I think he felt that if something bad happened, and he was not there, that the responsibility might fall on someone else other than him. Because, as I documented my book, there were- SM: 49:18 Yes. TG: 49:18 -several instances earlier in his tenure, where there was a brewing crisis on the campus, and he turned responsibility for that over to his Vice President Raskins and a few others, Barkley McMillan, and people like that. And then he would go to his home and stay in touch by-by telephone. So, I mean, there is a lot of ways that that could be characterized- cowardice is one of them. But and I think that that is a fair charge, you know, to make against him. I will say, I do not say this so much in his defense is I do offering it as an explanation, that when I worked on my own book, and reviewed his correspondence from probably maybe (19)64, right up through the (19)70s shootings, that he always had to navigate the shoals of both the right and the left. And that was very difficult for-for him. And if he had been the president of Kenyon University, and responsible only to the trustees in that responsible to a governor and the taxpayers, et cetera, et cetera, the Ohio legislature, he might have been- might. Might have been a little more courageous, and willing to provide some leadership. But instead, he tried to, he-he navigated that that very treacherous political world by seeking not to make a mistake, and if a mistake were made, to turn through responsibility, to push down the level of responsibility to someone else. So, the fact that he was away during that period and did not come back, and then, and then to leave the campus to go to lunch with his aides, when he knew that the National Guard was moving against the student demonstration on May 4th, that, that that crystallizes everything. SM: 51:36 Yes. TG: 51:37 His-his entire tenure was crystallized in that moment. But-but it has to be seen in this like, wider scope of conduct as, as the president of the university. SM: 51:55 I just want to men- this is something I was going to say at the end of the area, but I think it is the perfect timing, when we are talking about not only Kent State but Jackson State, and, and in being there and talking to Alan and then coming to all the remembrance events that this was a simp- this was protest, freedom of expression. And-and I wrote this down, freedom of expression is central for all Americans who live in a democracy. Yet, why have the basic rights been denied to many who challenged the status quo, and the injustice in our society wherever it raises its ugly head? Kent State and Jackson State, this never should have happened. And a democracy may be, as Franklin Frank said, at the in 1776 independent [inaudible] when he described the wooden sun on the Washington's chair, was it a rising sun or a setting sun? Franklin said, it is a rising sun, if we can keep it. And to me, let me tell you this, this event, at Kent State on May 4th, just change my life, forever. And I have empathized even emotionally, with the four students who died and the nine who were wounded, and this is never should have happened. And it changed my career. And I just, in your own words, I did it with Joe Lewis, in my last interview, I want to just on that particular day of May 4th, where you were and what you did, and I know you were wounded. Just explain it because the people that are going to listen to this tape are not even born yet. These are going to be forever preserved. And could you go through then that like that, that day of May 4th 1970 from your viewpoint? Sure. Although as I have mentioned to you in some of our correspondents, electronic correspondence setting up this interview, I have been through this many, many times. I know. TG: 54:08 And in in a lot of ways, I am kind of talked out on it. I will do my best. But I also want to alert and educate future listeners to the fact that in (19)85 I sat down with a man by the name of Bob Morrison, he and his mother wrote a book called "From Camelot to Kent State" and it consists of oral interviews with well, many well-known figures from the (19)60s and others that are like fairly obscure like me, because I was not a well-known figure of the (19)60s by any means. The only way that I have any notoriety at all is because of something that happened to me on May 4th (19)70, that I was hit. But it was not anything that I did. It was something that happened to me. So, when I am intro- when people introduce me sometimes as a person who got shot at Kent State, for years, I did not know what to say. And then I, I eventually came around to saying to people, yes, that that I was, and it was not an accomplishment. It was simply-simply, it was simply something that happened to me. SM: 55:08 Right-right. TG: 55:36 So, and, and none of us know that the future, we do not know what is going to happen an hour from now or tomorrow or next week. And when I went to the protest on May 4 (19)70, when I, when I left my classroom building, I knew that it was a very fraught, fraught situation. And I had promised a friend of mine whose brother had been killed in Vietnam, that I that I would not go to the protest. But I heard at the very end of the class, a woman get up and announce that there was going to be a rally on the Commons, which is the central area where this confrontation occurred, the central area of the campus where this confrontation occurred. And of course, I already knew that that rally was taking place, and it made a promise that I was not going to go. But I sat in the room for a minute or two after most people had left the classroom and, and kind of deliberated. What should I do? And I eventually came to the decision that I had been involved in and too much, that this expansion of the war was too wrong. And knowing what I know, and the kind of commitments that I had made over the last year, year and a half, that it was just too important. And I had an obligation to go, despite the promise that I made to my friend. So and there was something else that was at work, too. And I know that Alan, my friend, Alan Canfora would have discussed this. My roommate's brother had been killed near the Cambodia border with Viet- with Vietnam weeks beforehand, and we had attended his funeral probably the last week of April. And then, only a few days later, Nixon announced the invasion of Cambodia. So this was a felt issue for us as well. Kent State was the kind of campus where it was not uncommon for a student to be there, and his brother being-being in Vietnam at the same time, or Kent State had about one out of every 10 of the male students in (19)70, were either reservists or veterans of Vietnam. And they had already fought the war and then on May 4th, there were dozens of them that were in the protests, they were at the rally, protesting a war that they had just fought. So I left my classroom building, it was a fairly short walk over to the rally site. When I got there, I saw hundreds of people, including several black flags that were being blown in the breeze. And I quickly recognized that two of my roommates were carrying them, so I gravitated to them immediately. The National Guard were off to the left. And the students were gathered around the base of a hill that is known as either Taylor Hill or Blanket Hill. It is a rather steep incline that forms almost like a natural amphitheater for that area of the campus. And there were maybe between three and five hundred active protesters. Another couple of thousand people that were onlookers, almost totally ringed this area of the campus known as the commons. And we were not there very long. Chanting anti-war slogans, many of them abusive. 1,2,3,4 we do not want your fucking war, 5,6,7,8 organize to smash a state, you know, stuff like that, pigs off campus. Et. cetera, et cetera. And Jeep came out with a campus patrolman riding shotgun. And I think two or three other Nat- and two or three National Guardsmen in the jeep. And they, and the campus policeman, Harold Rice, ordered us to disperse. I knew Harold a little bit. He was a nice man. And he was the kind of officer that would pick kids up who were sick on the campus and bring them over to the health center. And I will add parenthetically that about a year after the shootings, I was working a table to raise funds for a group of students, students known as the Kent 25 that have been charged for their role or their alleged role in all of the protests that occurred between May, May 1 and May 4. And he walked down the hall, made sure that no one was looking on either end, threw a couple of dollars down on the table, picked up one of the political buttons and attached that to the inside of his jacket walked off. So that gives you an idea of where Harold's sympathies lie. But on that occasion, he was trying to get us to disperse. And he was not doing it because he was trying to deny us our civil liberties. I think he was genuinely anxious and fearful for what was about to occur. But we did not know any of that. So it just whipped the crowd up into a further frenzy. And people were chanting, get the hell out of here, and cetera, et cetera, and someone threw either, it was probably a rock at the Jeep, and it hit the tire and bounced off and made a couple of passes. But I do not think they came as close as they did the first time. And then the Jeep returned to the National Guard lines. And they leveled their bayonets. They were given a command by their General Robert Canterbury, to begin firing tear gas and about 105 guardsmen leveled their- they all were wearing gas masks, most of them I should say were wearing gas masks and the gas dispersed the students and forced us up this steep incline that I referred to earlier. There was a large building at the very top of the hill called Taylor Hall, hence the name, Taylor Hill. And it was so large that to get up to the top of the hill and to safety and beyond, that students had to part ways. You either went to the left of the building or you went to the right, I went to the left of the building. And I had a handkerchief with me. So I kept that over my mouth and nose. But other people were rubbing their eyes from the tear gas, there was a- there was only one really clear picture that was taken of me at the protest that day. There was a close up, but you can see me yelling to a student not-not to rub her eyes, because that is the worst thing you can do. It just it just irritates the eyes. I have been tear gassed before in Washington and knew better than to do that. So when I got to the top of the hill, there was a girl's dormitory, Prentice Hall. That was to the left of Taylor Hall, the architecture building. And what a lot of the girls were doing, there were there were there was a first floor girls' bathroom with frosted windows. So they cranked these windows open, and they were moistening paper towels and passing them out to the students who had been tear gassed that were lying against the building on this grassy, grassy apron between the building and the Prentice Hall parking lot. So I spent most of the time there, either washing my face with these towels, or helping other people who had been gassed more seriously than me. So, while all this was going on, some students were throwing rocks at the guardsmen who had followed us up over this hill, and down onto a practice football field. There were not many people doing that, perhaps less than a dozen. Some of the guardsmen were throwing the rocks back at the students. I only know all of this because I saw photographs of it. I did not see that firsthand. But then I wanted to get a better look about what was taking place. So, I walked over to the-the very base of Taylor Hill or Blanket Hill, which on its reverse slope and the area of which I am now discussing was far more gentle, the one slope than the other side of the hill where the incline is very steep. And I stood there and watched these guardsmen leave an area where they had congregated about 75 of them on a practice football field, begin to march back in the direction that they had come from. And I was kind of pivoting to turn, turning my body to watch them as they were going. And when they got to the top of the hill, it seemed like I saw this quick movement, where you suddenly see 15, 20 men reverse course and stop their march and then turn around. And I heard one or two cracks of unmistakable, rifle fire. And I started to run. And within just a second or so, I did not get very far at all. I found myself on the ground, and I was not really sure what had happened it first. And then I looked down and I can, I could see what the bullet has done to my foot and ankle. And I was trying to in the process of raising myself to look at my lower body. I heard someone yelling, "Stay down, stay down. It is birch or it is buckshot," and he meant to say birdshot. He thought, and it was my friend Alan Canfora, who I really had not been with, since the rally had started when I first arrived on the campus, because when the tear gas came in, everybody got dispersed. So that caused me to realize that we were still under fire. And I needed to shield my body as much as I could. So I lay as prone as possible, while they gunfire continued. As it turns out, he wound up being hit too, although he had the shelter of a tree, a bullet, I do not know if it was a clear shot or a ricochet, but I went through his right wrist. And then after 13 seconds, the gunfire finally stopped. I discuss all of this in the book that I referred to earlier. SM: 1:06:59 Right, yes-yes. TG: 1:06:59 And also, another book that I also recommend to people because I think both of the books that I mentioned, are going to offer a superior account of what I am now describing, because they were offered years and years ago and my memory, memories of all this were much clearer than they are today. Now I am discussing it 52 years later. And in the earlier interviews I was discussing, when it was a 15 year old memory or when it was a 20 year old memory. Now it is 52-year-old memory. But I was, I remember when I was lying there, I was thinking, how are we going to get these guys to stop, we have we have no weapons of our own. If we did, if this were a real battle, we could return fire. We could. They were, they were, they were shooting and killing us. We could shoot back and try to kill them. But we did not have any arms. We were college students, we were just caught completely in the open. The only thing that was that stopped it was a major Harry Jones, who-who likely and oddly enough, is probably the one that gave the order to fire. But what-what he meant when he, if indeed he was the one that gave an order to fire, we do not know if he was saying, you know, fire-fire above their heads and people and the guardsmen misunderstood that, or whether some of them had who had hate and malice in their hearts, just wanted to kill as many students as they could, you know, started firing right-right into us. There were 60- between 61 and 67 shots that were fired, of that number 15 of those shots hit someone. So that means approximately one out of every four, four and a half rounds that were fired, actually struck someone so in that kind of an environment and from the distances that a lot of these guys were firing at us because people in some cases were hundreds of yards away from where the guardsmen, at their guardsmen firing line. These guys were pretty good shots because if one out of every four of your rounds, hit-hit the target, in this case a human target, that was, that was pretty good shooting. So it was it was it was terrifying being under fire and having being caught in the open and having no means of protecting yourself. Yeah, you mentioned something that I have heard before that you said that you went to Kent State to major in history not to be part of history and of course that was so true. When you look at the, when you were taken to the hospital, how long was the recuperation and-and when did you get back to school full time? Well, it was fairly lengthy recuperation. I was in the hospital in Ravenna, which is the county seat for Portage County where Kent, the town of Kent is located. I was there until the 13th of May. And then I was transported by ambulance back to my hometown in Syracuse, my father followed in his own vehicle. It was a time when a lot of college students were on the road protesting. There was a nationwide student strike. So here, you know, we would be passing all these cars on the New York state thruway, and on Interstate 90, and the ambulance says Kent on the side, and it has got a person in the back, you know, with-with long hair. So, it did not take a lot of imagination to figure what that was all about. And when we would pass a car that had young people, and it was long hair, they would be giving me a [inaudible] sign, you know, from their cars. So that that is something that I do not think I have talked about before in an interview. And that helped to kind of pump me up and to reinforce me because it was a very painful injury. And I had to go through a lot of surgeries. And I was in the hospital, in Syracuse until about, it was either June 28th, or June 30th when I got out. I remember what a great feeling it was just to see the sky again, and to breathe, you know, some fresh air because I had not been outdoors since May 4th, 1970. SM: 1:11:37 Wow. TG: 1:11:39 And, you know, at that point, I had a cast from my foot up to my thigh, or up to my hip rather, and had to keep that on until probably December of that year. Because you know, a lot of, my ankle was broken, had to be put back together. They had to fuse it, that was the only way they could do it. So that is why I have that, if you have ever seen me walking around with a limp, that is why, that is where that limp comes from. But it is not, all things considered, it is not-not too bad. I mean, I have a huge cavity in my foot. But I am for the most part able to walk fairly well and have led a normal life. So, while it was really bad at the time, and I have, you know, the [inaudible] red-red badge on my foot as it were, in other respects that led to very regular life since then, unlike my friend Dean Kahler, who is who was paralyzed and had a, his life was immeasurably changed. Whereas in my case, it was not. And I always like to tell people too that when I got back into coaching baseball, and I had a son, who played ball and then when he did not want to play anymore, I was able to get into an adult baseball league. It is called the Muni league. And we have some fairly good players, Joe Charbonneau who played with the Cleveland Indi- SM: 1:13:18 Oh, yeah, I got a baseball card of him. TG: 1:13:20 Yeah, he played in the Muni league here in Buffalo, although at a higher level than I did. Paul Hollins, whose brother was on the (19)93 World Series Phillies teams- SM: 1:13:33 Dave Hollins. TG: 1:13:35 Yeah. SM: 1:13:35 Yes. TG: 1:13:36 Yeah, he-he, he played. Paul, his brother, Paul, played in a Muni League. So I played in that for a couple of years in the (19)90s. Again, at a much lower level and on a bad team, and I was probably the wor- I used to tell people that I was the worst guy on the worst team. But I would still rather be the worst guy on the worst team than the best guy sitting on the bench. SM: 1:14:06 [laughs] Yeah. TG: 1:14:06 I was able to, you know, I was not able to run very fast I always used to tell people that I fielded like a DH and hit and hit like a pitcher and ran like a catcher. But I was still able to play. So, it could not have been that bad if I was able to go and play baseball for a couple of years. SM: 1:14:26 Who were the- I guess my history questions because I knew you are a historian too. So I had some questions strictly that, not even Kent State. But I have a que- who were the heroes of Kent State, if you can say there is a hero, who were the heroes of Kent State and who were the villains? TG: 1:14:48 Well, I think there was only one hero that that really stands out at Kent State and that was Glenn Frank. He averted a-a much wider slaughter. When the students regrouped immediately after the shootings, went back down to the commons, and sat down said they were going to refuse to leave. At that point, the general who had ordered the troops to attack us in the first place, encircled hundreds and hundreds of students who were seated at a compact [inaudible] says he was going to open fire into them if they did not leave. And Glen Frank and two other professors, all of whom are now deceased, and a history graduate student by the name of Steve Sharoff, pleaded with the National Guard general to give them time to get to convince the students to leave. SM: 1:15:45 Okay. TG: 1:15:47 And a member of the Ohio, an officer in the Ohio highway patrol was there as well. And you can hear some of the film footage and audio footage from that moment. And Sheriff is saying to them, "Can you give us five minutes" and, and then you hear the Ohio highway patrol officer say, "You got five minutes." At that point, Glenn, Frank goes over and he had a lot of standing on the campus. He was a geology teacher, World War Two veteran, wore a crew cut. I mean, he really looked the part of having been, you know, World War Two veteran. And he had enormous standing on the campus with the students, although he was a conservative man, and he was not at all in sympathy with what the students were doing necessarily, but he loved the students of Kent State, and his oratory, heartfelt, as it was, was able, was enough to convince the students to get up and disperse. Otherwise, there would have been a slaughter on the scale of Sharpesville in South Africa were something like 67 people were massacred during some of the first anti-apartheid protests of the (19)60s. So he, he was a true hero in other respects. And as a historian, I tried not to, and I use- and I adopted this approach, when I was writing the book, I did not want it to be a morality play. SM: 1:17:26 Okay, very good. TG: 1:17:29 That is up to other people who will hear this tape and study can stay on their own and read some of the interviews that I have that I have given and listened to all of the other interviews that you have done. That is up to them to decide. SM: 1:17:44 One of the things Tom is, when you look at the (19)60s themselves, and the divisions that were taking place in the (19)60s, many people at the time thought that there this could be another Civil War. I mean, this is like a general statement. I mean, we know what the Civil War was all about. But we were so divided as a nation, that there was a, there was commentary that, "Are we heading toward another one?" And now we are living in another era, right now, where a lot of people are saying, you know, the-the nation is so divided. Are we ever going to be united again? And so, so we are not, we are dealing with what happened in the (19)60s, you are a scholar of the Civil War. Can you put as a historian you know, I know you can write a book on this, but the divisions between America in the Civil War, the (19)60s and early (19)70s and now. TG: 1:18:48 Well, in the (19)60s, we saw this less in terms of being a Civil War and more in terms of being a Revolution. That is how I thought about it. That, that the people who were, had been disadvantaged and oppressed and made to fight a war that was immoral and illegal, that all these forces would rise up against the government and create a, just a more civil society. That was a complete fantasy. But that does not mean we did not think that at the time. And of course, when you have something like this happen to you, you want to have, you want to have a measure of justice or some type of retribution, you know, so. So the peop- the people who were responsible for inflicting this upon us are going to be made to pay for it. I never really had confidence that the government was going to do that, how that might take place, I really cannot say, but or I am not prepared to say in the course of this interview, but a lot of us were very angry about that for a period of time. So, so a number of us saw ourselves as being like radicals, revolutionaries, or what have you. Was not too many years after that, though, that I became involved in the union movement, which is how I spent the majority of my adulthood. And that is a very different kind of organizing, because you have to be elected to union office, you have to represent a constituency, you have to make sure that you are acting in accord with their wishes. So, you do not want to be too far behind where they are at politically, but you do not want to be too far out ahead of where they are politically. So, what you are doing is you are providing leadership, but you have to be in close contact with the people that you are representing. So that, basically, that kind of a mindset informed my politics, you know, probably from, from the (19)70s on, you know, right up to the present day, in terms of the tensions that now exist in American society, I see it as a very, very dangerous time. Not unlike the late, well not unlike the periods throughout the entire (18)50s. There was, there was a fair amount of border violence during-during the (18)50s, both on either side of the Mason Dixon Line, or on either side of the Ohio River. And, of course, it was occurring on the on the borders of the new states that were seeking to come into the Union, places like Kansas, and later, Nebraska. And then, of course, the combination of that was the raid that John Brown undertook, in mid-October of (18)59, where he and several dozen of his followers tried to take arms that they had gotten from a federal arsenal in Harpers Ferry, Virginia, and used that to start a slave rebellion. Of course, that was crushed, and they were either killed, and majority of them were executed. 11 of those guys, by the way, were from Ohio, [inaudible] Brown, and four or five of his sons. And five of them were African American as well. So but now the tension in the energy is all coming from the, from the right, we have several recent public opinion polls show that somewhere around 10, or 15 million people in the United States feel that political violence is, is justified in terms of pursuing their means. You know, a dramatic example of that, that was January 6th, of course, and that energy is not dissipating. If anything, it was, it was as potent now, it was a year and a half ago. So, I do not know what is going to happen with all that. But it is going to either dissipate on its own or it is going to continue to gain momentum and, and lead to some level of clash that is worse than anything we have seen so far in the last five or six years. Beyond that, I cannot really make any predictions and I hope that it dissipates on its own but there is no indication that, that is, that is the case. SM: 1:24:01 Another thing we hear today, from those who are protesting is we guess we are seeing a return of the to the (19)60s with this kind of protest. I kind of react negatively to that. I like the fact that people are protesting and speaking up and being heard. However, I am not, it is, it is a different time, the issues are different, although some are still the same. You talked about race, the whole issue of race, everybody's talking about race. I have never seen more books in my life, in Barnes and Noble than I see right now on the issue of race. And it is like my graduate advisor used to say who I interviewed Dr. Johnson, he used to always say, "Well, we are taking two steps forward, but we are always taking you know, a step backward. When we should be taken three steps forward and no steps backwards." TG: 1:24:50 Well, that always happens with race in this country. Whenever there are gains, those people that have held down advances of African Americans in particular, eventually put up their hands and say enough, and then they try to take back what has been gained. That is the, that is the story of racial relations in the United States. And maybe-maybe what I can do is make-make a comment on this. In the (19)60s, all of the shootings on American college campuses happened at state universities, they did not happen at prestigious institutions. Some, somewhere in the neighborhood of about 16 to 18 people were killed by the authorities between (19)67 and (19)72. The vast majority of those people were African American, with the exception of Kent State, where two young women were killed, they were all male. So that, so that the, the repression and, and the use of lethal force, it was a class dimension involved, class and racial dimension involved in that as well. And for all of the tumult that existed in the (19)60s, the lethal violence was almost exclusively the purview of the authorities, rather than the protesters. Whereas, whereas today, we, the people who were protesting in the (19)60s, were trying to bring about a more racially inclusive and just society, and they were trying to stop a war that millions and millions of people saw as illegal and immoral. And for the most part, the-the tactics that were used to bring about those ends were, were not violent. And to the extent that force was used in in the protest, it was usually force and destruction against property, rather than against people. Whereas today, coming from the right, you, you see this, this angry impulse is being directed towards people. And there is almost like an indifference to-to human life. I mean, how else could we get to the point where we are approaching, for instance, 900,000 people dead from a pandemic- SM: 1:27:43 Right. TG: 1:27:43 -and you have people who refuse to get vaccinated and refuse to wear masks to protect the rest of the population and themselves, you know, so that there is, there is almost like a nihilism that is that has engulfed American society. And it is more afraid now than at any time in my lifetime. And probably more afraid now than it has been in over 150 years. SM: 1:28:09 I agree. I agree. Well- TG: 1:28:11 So, it is not a pretty picture. And it is not an optimistic forecast. But at the same time, someone is listening to these 10 or 15 years or 20 years from now, I hope that they are able to, to say, well, it was it was it was it was dim and dark then. But fortunately, we did not go over the cliff. SM: 1:28:35 When, when did the (19)60s began and when did it end? TG: 1:28:40 Well, I dated in my book from (19)58 to (19)73. That is how I understand what took place at Kent State. SM: 1:28:50 Right. TG: 1:28:50 Chronological period of about 15 years. I think there are different endpoints. I think one could say (19)75 when the, when the war ended. They did not. They did not end however, on a grassy hillside on May 4th (19)70. SM: 1:29:09 Right. TG: 1:29:09 As so many people believe it is just, it is just too neat. When people try to squeeze a tumultuous era into a chronological one. From my point of view, that does not work. SM: 1:29:25 One of the things that I have always been dealing with in all my interviews, you are going to if you listen to them, I always ask this question. I remember I was interviewing Gaylord Nelson, the founder of- TG: 1:29:37 The former senator from Wisconsin. SM: 1:29:38 Yeah, I was in his office and he, I get to know him quite well and he gave me over four hours. I interviewed him, cut back and forth. But the question was this: I care deeply about Vietnam vets, and I have been going to the wall since (19)93, Memorial Day, Veterans Day. Know, I know quite a few of them. I have interviewed some of them. I have always been asked, "Why did not you serve in the war?" And it was a typical question, and I have to tell them why. But the question is this, Jan Scruggs, the founder of the Vietnam Memorial wrote the book, "To Heal a Nation." That was his book, that was his first book. And if you read the book, it is the purpose of it was not only to pay respect to those who served and died, and give them the respect they deserved, but to help the families of those who died and to show reverence also to those who served with the opening of the Wall in (19)82. Now, the question I keep asking, and this is how Gaylord Nelson responded, "are we ever been to heal from this war?" The divisions were so intense, that it seems like we never have healed from the war, even today. And when George Bush the first was president, he said, "the Vietnam syndrome is over." I always remember he said that. TG: 1:30:52 [inaudible] I think. SM: 1:30:53 Yeah, and it was (19)89. And I said, "You are kidding me. And impossible." So Gaylord Nelson responded in this way. He said, "People are not walking around Washington DC, you know, with not healing on their sleeves. They are not doing that." But he said, "Vietnam has forever changed the body politic." I would like your thoughts on that. TG: 1:31:23 Well, it made Americans well, let me put it this way. It took the French two wars to get over their ideas as being colonizers. They had to lose both Vietnam, and or all of Southeast Asia for that matter, as well as Algeria, before they lost their taste for foreign domination. I think it is taken the Americans, maybe three wars. Two in the Middle East one, and actually, four. Vietnam, the two in the Middle East, and Afghanistan, before Americans really soured on it. So, I think in some respects, we are a nation of slow learners. And we, of course, just ended our-our longest war, and that was in Afghanistan. Of course, none of the wars that took place after Vietnam, were on that scale, and involved as many soldiers and involved as many casualties. But there are, there are really different ways of if you look at the long scope of American history, most of the wars that America has fought with the exception of the Second World War have been controversial. And as-as Vietnam was. I think the real question is, "When will the country learn that it cannot, cannot and should not try to dominate the world." We are not the policemen of the world as-as the is the popular wisdom often has it. But it does not have that, the popular wisdom is not prevalent enough to keep us from becoming embroiled in these kinds of, from initiating very often and becoming embroiled in these kinds of conflicts. SM: 1:33:41 I only got a few more questions, and then we will be done. TG: 1:33:44 I yeah, we are maybe one more Steven, and we are going to have to wrap up, SM: 1:33:48 This is the last one, then. This is about the issue of trust. I can remember being [inaudible] the same the same age, and being in college and going to a lot of speakers on campus. And in hearing about we cannot trust leaders and I, there was this perception out there in the (19)60s and (19)70s, that if a person was a leader, no matter whether it be a president of a university, a head of a corporation, politician, President of the United States, you know, they cannot trust him. There is just- TG: 1:34:22 I know where you are going with this. I did not feel that way. I felt that there were people who had earned trust. And I was prepared to give it to him. And then there were other people that I knew that I knew could not be trusted, and were clear adversaries. But-but I did not. I did not dismiss all people who held positions of authority. And let us let us keep in mind, too, that the leaders of not only the Civil Rights movement, but the movement against the war in Vietnam, were often 10 or 15 years older than many of the people that were the, you know, the rank-and-file protesters. SM: 1:35:03 Yes, you are right. That is true. All right. Well, I guess that is it. Do you have any, do you have any final thoughts on? TG: 1:35:15 No, I think we have, we have, we have covered-covered a lot of ground and you-you asked good questions, Steve. And I would like to thank you for persevering with this too, because this is I know, the third or fourth time you have tried to set this up. So, I appreciate what you are doing to help preserve the history of these times through these interviews. SM: 1:35:36 Well, I will be at Kent State in, I do not, I do not care if they are having a ceremony or not, I am going to be there. [crosstalk] TG: 1:35:41 Well, we will get a chance to meet then because there is a committee that is re-forming now to do in 2020 what we were not able to do that year and in 2021. SM: 1:35:56 Very good. Alright, Tom, well, thank you very much. You be safe, your family be safe and healthy and happy here in the year 2022. And carry on. TG: 1:36:07 Thank you, Steve. You do the same. SM: 1:36:08 Have a great day. TG: 1:36:09 Look forward to meeting you in May. SM: 1:36:11 Take care, bye now. TG: 1:36:12 You too, bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Thomas Grace IIIF Item Metadata UUID 5751f9f3-df7a-48bb-b029-b36a0f5f4c0f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4b23a2afaf99b6dab64a85355200660d.jpeg 563439027250c4068115ecb23206422c https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ae54f44eedda68f83ba71a6c6393bf79.mp3 774e1898e207f751fb6e3974a9f60e42 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-01-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Tim Spofford Biographical Text Dr. Tim Spofford, a native of Cohoes, NY, is an educator, author, and editor. Spofford's early writing was inspired by the killings at Kent State University and Jackson State University. In his first book, Lynch&nbsp;Street, he describes in detail the killings of Black Students at Jackson State University in Jackson, Mississippi. Spofford received a Ph.D., in English from the State University of New York at Albany. He has taught writing and journalism in schools and has produced numerous articles that have appeared in the New York Times, Newsday, Columbia Journalism Review, and Mother Jones to name a few. Spofford is the author of two books. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 2:19:29 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Rebellions; Riots; Voting rights; North and South; College students; 1960s; Liberalism; Radicals; Republican Party; Race issue; Neo-segregation; Resistance. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Tim Spofford Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 27 January 2022 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:03 All right. TS: 00:08 All right, let us roll. SM: 00:09 All right, Tim, I, as I do with everybody that I interview, the very first questions that always kind of around the same and that is, please describe your early years where you grew up. Your parent's background, your early experiences in elementary and high school before you went off to college, your background. TS: 00:28 Sure. I was born in Bennington, Vermont, a small city, mill city. My parents were working class. They had factory jobs before they married. My father had one after he married. And he, when I was three, moved to Troy, New York, another mill city, mid-size on the Hudson River, not far from the capital, Albany. And, they stayed there a brief time. And he-he was working in a steel factory. Allegheny Ludlum Corporation and Watervliet to another city nearby. And, a number of Black people started moving on to our block. And it was probably, it was probably I say a number. I think my mother said loads, but I was probably one family and they moved out. My parents were extremely poor and uneducated, did not have, did not finish high school, even. And-and they fled across the river to an all-white town Cohoes, New York, c-o-h-o-e-s, New York. And that is about 11 miles north of Albany, the capital. And-and that is where I grew up. And-and they were poor to start with, and they got poor, my father was an alcoholic, child abuser, and a gambler and not a good combination to raise seven children. SM: 02:24 Wow. TS: 02:24 I was the oldest. I was the oldest. And while his pay was not bad, by the standard of the day, the fact that he had seven children and all these bad habits, made us one of the poorest families in the city. What is quite germane is that, as young as maybe five, I started hearing stories that I heard throughout my childhood, from playmates, school friends. I remember walking to school one day and-and some friends that was walking, the walk was about a mile. So, we, we talked a lot. Anyway, they said that Black people moved into our city once and we were hustled out in the middle of the night. I heard that story. And I do not think it was just an urban legend. There were no Black people in our city and there were Black people in virtually all the other smaller and midsize cities around us. We were a city of about 26,000 back then. And so, I was looking at a book one day, "Sundown Towns," by a guy, I think it is Loewen, l-o-e-w-e-n. And he writes about, basically ethnic cleansing. And towns, towns where Black people were either purged from the city, burned out, lynched out, shot out, whatever. And-and in towns where, where there were signs up at the boundaries, saying in no uncertain terms, Black people and they did not often use the word Black, they used a less, a more expressive term. That you need to be out of here by sundown. And anyway, I believe his name is Loewen and, l-o-e-w-e-n, I think, he had a website and sure enough, my town was listed. There was a memory of a resident from the (19)40s or (19)50s, who recall police escorting a Black woman to a bus to get her out of town. SM: 05:02 Wow. TS: 05:03 So, I mean that is my parents were, you know, your garden variety racist. They were from New England and small town, city, Bennington whereby the way, abolitionist, Frederick Douglas ran his newspaper I believe, or worked with, worked on "The Liberator," I cannot remember which, which of the abolitionist's papers were printed in that city. And you know, I mean, New England has a proud abolitionist tradition. But it also has a proud racist tradition as well. And my parents shared in that they were also anti-Semites. Not, you know, not, I think garden variety, none of the most virulent, overt type, but just, you know, real racist and they were not afraid of using the N word. SM: 06:01 Wow. TS: 06:01 And so, I-I was a pretty conservative kid, I went to a Catholic high school, which kind of softened the more hard-edge racism that I encountered even from teachers in public school, because of the church's firm belief in charity, and so on. So-so then I went to Plattsburgh State College, State University, State University campus, in the Canadian border, and-and I read probably two books that really began to change my complete political orientation. And, one was the Kerner Commission report in 1967, which I read for one course. And then the, J. William Fulbright's "Arrogance of Power," about Vietnam, those were the two burning issues of the (19)60s. And I started college in (19)67. So those were the two burning issues. And early on, I read those two books like my sophomore year, and I began a pretty rapid change, becoming quite a bit more liberal. And then in (19)70, with the Kent State killings, it really disturbed my very little teacher's college community, which also had big air force base, a SAC, Air Force base with B-52 bombers, and a city of maybe 30-35 thousand, something like that. But it really unsettled that there was a power outage, it might have been sabotage and all the kids emptied the dorms. And we congregated and went into the street, and marched through the city, and went down to a big monument overlooking the Lake Champlain and-and then we marched to the federal building. It was a big, concrete, federal building, kind of a grand, neo classical building, and we took control of that, and I might say, we, I was there but I cannot take credit as any kind of leader. But, and we stopped the, processing of draft records. And there was a ceremony, we had a lot of turmoil, you know, student strike, I mean these things were real common. I wrote about these kinds of things in Lynch street. So, we had a student strike and four crosses, white crosses went up on the lawn, beside the pond in the commons of my college campus. And those represented the white students. And then, the 10 days later, there was a killing at Jackson State College in Mississippi. And there had been, oh, a, a, an attempt to burn the ROTC building there. As part of, you know, all the nationwide unrest after the Cambodia incursion and the killings at Kent State. So, there was something like that at Jackson State too, a protest in the daytime that was peaceful and, but there was always unrest on that campus, especially in spring because white people, racists, often would come through, straining through the campus on, on this major artery. They had come in their cars, and they would shout racial slurs out the windows and-and then the kids would throw rocks at them. And so there have been a number of shootings, which were related to this conflict over a period of years in the spring, and one was in (19)63, James Meritus, a famous, integrationist that you interviewed, he helped organize a number of protests along Lynch Street. That is the name of the street. And there were shootings that year. And then, then there was shootings along Lynch Street again, in 1967. I believe yeah, it was (19)67, I am pretty sure it was-(19)67. And then in (19)70, and then in (19)70, but what happened in (19)70 really overshadowed anything that happened in the prior years. There were a couple of kids wounded, but no one was killed, well, yeah, actually. Yeah, there was a non-student who was killed in (19)67, Benjamin Brown, and all of this activity happened on Lynch Street. And then, and then in (19)70, about 70 officers, roughly half from the State Police, roughly half from-from the city police. And they all came in armed, and state policemen had, they had some machine guns and rifles, and the police all had their pistols. And someone in the crowd of students did not, well, there was a crowd of students in front of a, a women's dormitory and they did not like the fact these police were coming out on their campus on Lynch Street. And so, one of them threw a bottle, and it was bladdered in the street near the police. And they all, not all of them, but many of them opened fire. And there were- SM: 09:03 Wow. Oh god. TS: 10:18 -literally hundreds of rounds, literally, hundreds of rounds poured into the dormitories, in front of them, behind them, into a Roberts dining hall, trees, they hit trees. I mean, bullets hit the ground all over the place. I mean, it was a mess. And they wounded, I believe it was 12 students. And they killed two and four girls were hospitalized for hysteria. I mean, you can imagine- SM: 12:56 Oh, yes. TS: 12:57 -something, something that horrendous, that many bullets, hundreds, and the shooting went on for 38 seconds. That is how long, it was, you know. And I think Kent was something like eight seconds. SM: 13:05 Thirteen-thirteen. TS: 13:14 Thirteen seconds, okay, that is the title of Joe Esther's book, "Thirteen Seconds." And this went on for almost 40 seconds. I mean, just think about some machine guns firing that long. In any case, I was horrified by this and-and one day, two black crosses showed up alongside the four white ones on my campus. And there was a little quiet ceremony, but there was no big turmoil, the likes of which occurred after Kent. And there was, 1-3 or 4 days of media hankering, hand wringing about Jackson State, but it was really pretty quickly forgotten. And I thought, jeez, you know, somebody's got to write a book about that-that is, cannot be forgotten. And so, it took me quite a few years, I got some training in journalism. And I got a master's in English, and I started a doctoral program in English; English slash Journalism at the State University at Albany and I have been teaching high school and including in my teaching a fair amount of Black literature. And-and then, when I got into the doctoral program I got into, Doctor of Arts and English it allowed a, it required actually a second field of study. I mean, mine journalism and an I went about getting myself some coaching from some very good teachers in nonfiction writing, journalism, long form journalism. And-and that was the, I asked that my dissertation be a, a book, a documentary narrative, reconstructing what happened at Jackson State and got permission, that would be in effect my thesis and but, I spent way more time, and way more money [laughter], and way more travel than almost anybody I knew at, at the university who went out for a Ph.D. And because I wanted a book out of this, I wanted this to count, I did not want it just to be on microfilm, or in a file cabinet somewhere I-I wanted it to be published and a lot of people recognize what happened. And so, I spent almost a year living in Jackson, Mississippi, and traveling throughout Mississippi and traveling in, to Washington, because a lot of the records, the documents were there, I bought all kinds of copies of documents, FBI, the FBI files. There was a, as you know, Presidential Commission that Nixon ordered to look into student, pardon me, to look into student unrest from-from those times, sorry, I apologize for my asthma. SM: 16:57 You are okay. TS: 16:59 And so it spend a good time, a good deal of time in Washington, and I could still see all the burn marks, the scorch marks on the buildings on Pennsylvania Avenue, right near the White House, and from buildings scarred by the Martin Luther King assassination era riots in 1968. SM: 17:28 Right. TS: 17:29 Those did not go away. Until I would say, it was probably the early (19)90s, late (19)80s. SM: 17:38 Wow. TS: 17:39 That was still had the marks of a, of a riot, what I call a riot quarter. And it was very disturbing. I mean, to see that go on that long. And there were all these other cities, Detroit, Newark, that really never sprang back, that really never recovered to the degree that one would hope. Those cities were really-really harmed. [crosstalk] And-and it just was heartbreaking, you know. And so, after I did that-that book, which was published by Kent State Press, I-I was a working journalist by that time, teaching college journalism and high school English and journalism no longer interested me and I was working at a newspaper covering education, which I absolutely loved. But at the same time, I-I was not happy. I wanted to write another book. And I wanted something more, or less perishable, something more durable to my work, and I picked this up also in Plattsburgh, I took psychology, I was a psychology minor. And one morning in this big lecture hall, my psychology professor mentioned, Kenneth and Mamie Clark and their research with dolls, and how they show that Black children were spurning black dolls in favor of white dolls. Because they were internalizing the resentment, or they were reacting to the low, to the mistreatment of Black people and-and were experiencing low self-esteem as a result. And just about anybody who had written on the subject of self-esteem and being Black had pretty much concurred with the Clarks, back then, concurred with Clark's understanding of what their research showed. And, but after the Black Power movement in (19)68, well actually it started, started in (19)66. But after really gained steam (19)68-(19)69 that-that, that belief has been widely challenged by scholars of all kinds. But in any case, I thought that I would like to write a book someday about this, Kenneth Clark and his wife, because I-I learned that they were very close, that they were very much in love and they worked together, their, all their married years. And-and all this really appealed to me as a second book about civil rights. And, it was not till 1993 that I started working on it part time while, while working as a journalist and-and that is hard to pull off for a particularly small paper where they are always getting you to crank out stuff constantly, as opposed to the New York Times where you write a story maybe once every three weeks. But I did it. And I, you know, I started it. And, but then I-I wanted to move south here to Florida, to work at a better newspaper. And it was very hard for me, very rough job, God it was even harder, the real sweatshop. And so, I-I put off the reporting, but continued the reading. And I did a lot of reading, and a lot of, Kenneth was extremely prolific. And I had hundreds of pounds of his, of his writings. [laughs] SM: 22:17 Wow. TS: 22:18 In interviews with him, I mean, you know, he just wrote tons of stuff, and tons of stuff was written about him. So, there were interviews of him, countless, I mean, he was the Black scholar of his era, the (19)60s and (19)70s. And so, I started, I was doing a lot of that, but eventually I said, I want out of this newspaper business. And I was 58 years old, retired from newspapering and went into this project full time and-and at the same time, a woman I have been needing to talk to at length for in-depth interviews had moved nearby in, in Sarasota area. This was, this was the Clark's daughter. And-and I would interviewed her only once, but she was living, she was on a visit to, to New York, but she was living in, first in Switzerland and then in Hong Kong, [laughs]. I could not very well write the kind of family chronicle, the in-depth biography that I wanted to write about that family, that Black family living in the suburbs. But, but starting out in Harlem, I wanted to write a really intensive biography about the way they lived, the way they thought, the way they, their activist lives, and so on. And the daughter was my key. And they had a son too, and he was very helpful to me. But, he lived in New York and I can interview him no sweat in New York, so I had no problem interviewing him there. But what Kate Clark Harris did for me was, as their daughter, she threw up in her garage door and open and allowed me to, to comb through several huge boxes. And I am not talking about little boxes like you get in an archive, but I am talking about huge boxes, stuffed full of family documents and-and it was a treasure trove. But the Clarks also, and this is why I needed to get out of the newspapering in business. The Clarks also had five hundred boxes, smaller boxes that kind you have in archives, in the Library of Congress, and I needed the time away from work, to read, and study, and copy an awful lot of those. Because as you know, when you are writing something in depth, you need copies in front of you, you cannot just walk down to the library when the library is 1000 miles away from you. And so, I spent nearly a year living in Washington, going through all that. And I interviewed Kate over a period of, you know, probably eight, nine years, long, you know, long interviews, probably, we had about 13, more than a dozen interviews, some shorter than others, but a lot of long interviews. And I finally got a chance to write that. And I spent 13 years researching, and writing, and editing, and finding a publisher, it took a long time. Nobody really gave any, me any encouragement in the publishing industry. Everybody said, "Nah, nah nobody is going to be interested in that." And but, finally, now, I think with Black Lives Matter, and after the Obama administration, I think there was, I think there was a renewed interest and I had three possibilities. One was Simon and Schuster, but ultimately, I went with Source Books. It was going to come out in August, the editing is done except for the proofreading. And-and that is my story. SM: 26:53 That is a great story. And-and I have the book, "Lynch Street," right in front of me here. I have a first edition copy of it. So- TS: 27:01 No kidding. SM: 27:02 -yeah, I have got some markings in it. But I think it is a great book. What I like about, I might repeat some of these things that you just said, but I want to go over them. I was very impressed with when you were doing the research for the Brooklyn Street, the number of trips you took down to Jackson, Mississippi, how you describe the environment from where you were living in upstate New York, or wherever it was, and then going there. And-and it is, it is the history, you go into a little bit about the history of Jackson, Mississippi, because of all the racism and the segregation and all the other things even before Jackson State was a college there. Could you talk a little bit about the history of Jackson, in terms of, because that is also I believe, was the home of Medgar Evers- TS: 27:08 Thank you. Yes, it was, yes it was. SM: 27:50 -he was killed there. TS: 27:56 Yes, he was. And, Jackson was the frontier capital city of a state that had slavery on an industrial scale. Most of it in the Delta region, where all the cotton plantations were. And then, after slavery, there was the, I should add, after Reconstruction, there was this, soon after Reconstruction very soon after it, sooner than other southern states. There was a you know these-these rebellions all across the state. Riots staged by thugs, white thugs, to frighten Black people from the polls. There were shootings, there were killings on election days to keep Blacks away. And so, even though Mississippi had a very-very large Black population, the whites kept a total iron lock on political power. After reconstruction, it was very rapid counter revolution, once those Union troops left, and Jackson was that capital city and-and there were a good number of, of Reconstruction era politicians who were Black, and some of them went to Congress even. John Lloyd Lynch was one of them, and that street in the Black neighborhood, the Lynch Street neighborhood was named for him, I am trying to remember the name of the other fellow who lived in Jackson. First name was Jim and I cannot remember his last name. He was a Mississippi legend, Black legislator too, of prominence and he was buried on Lynch Street, and a Black cemetery there that still has this extraordinary Reconstruction era, 19th century monuments to them once they- SM: 30:34 Wow. TS: 30:35 -died. It is quite a, it is quite a sight on Lynch Street. But in any case, Lynch Street was the Black neighborhood, there was another one, which was a pretty lively business district, [inaudible] street. And many of the Black people in the city, the poor Black people lived in little rickety shotgun houses, three rooms open, you know, and they were called "shotguns," there is lots of theories when they were called shotgun. These are extremely narrow little, basically shacks. And I was just shocked by the level of poverty- in Jackson, I mean, you know, a capital city not, not just the Delta, it was up in the Delta too, the most abject kind of poverty, just unbelievable. The squalor, the smell of the-these decaying structures, which I imagine were probably built during slavery days. It is something that a northerner never-never set eyes on, and I-I was just appalled at the poverty. And, but in any case, Lynch Street had those kinds of houses in the side streets, off Lynch, and a lot of, on Lynch Street there were a lot of fairly rickety, whitewashed, wooden homes on piers that were pretty poor, but others were more dignified. There were middle class people that lived on the street it, it was not really completely a slum, there were some slummy sections. But it was, the heart of the political Black community. The Masonic Temple was there. And that was, you know, a fraternal group, that was Black. And-and there were major funerals, held there. Martin Luther King spoke there on occasion. And-and that was like, almost the beating heart of that street and Medgar Evers, and a number of white activists in the early (19)60s, or mid (19)60s, or early (19)63, the (19)64, the integration, protests, a lot of those emanated out of that building, the Masonic temple and Medgar Evers spoke there all the time. And-and he had these like, t-shirts promoting integration, and civil rights, and he would hand them out there, he would speak and-and Black preachers would speak with him. And, there were a lot of civil rights rallies right there on Lynch Street. And in (19)64, during Freedom Summer, a lot of the, white as well as Black students from the north, and the South, a lot of them Mississippians, a lot of Black, I mean, they were living in the homes of, of Black adults on that street. And they were working in the civil rights movement during Freedom Summer- SM: 31:21 Right. Wow. TS: 34:17 - there, they are fighting for voting rights and so on. This-this issue that we are living through today, voting rights is hardly new. And it just tears my heart out to see what we are going through right now. SM: 34:31 Yeah. TS: 34:32 Because, you know, I lived to see, you know, I remember a time I could see a time when Black people had trouble voting, and I saw the places where they struggled to win the vote. And, poor Medgar Evers was gunned down right in that city, and his funeral was held in the Sonic temple and all the great civil rights leaders all over the country flew into Jackson for his funeral in that Masonic Temple on Lynch Street. And then when the two students who were gunned down, killed in Jackson, Jackson State University, Jackson State College at the time, when they were killed Edmund, Edwin or Edmund, I forgotten, Edmund, I think it is Edmund Muskie's chartered jet and flew congressmen and senators and-and civil rights activists from Washington down to, down to Jackson, and they showed up at the, at the Masonic temple for the funeral of Philip Gibbs when he was buried there. And when he was buried in the in the city, and I am trying to remember, I think the memorial service was also. But excuse me, the funeral was held in Ripley, that is where Philip was born. There I believe there was the funeral for Jimmy Green, James Green. That is- it, that was held in the Masonic temple. I wrote "Lynch Street," 25 years ago so I am, I am reflecting back. So anyway, so- SM: 34:33 Well- TS: 34:38 -I do not know, how does that, does that answer your question? [crosstalk] Town was rich, rich in slave history, in the politics of the slavocracy, a city rich in civil rights history. And I was very-very excited about being there and doing that research. I loved it. SM: 36:47 I was impressed with your, the number of times you went down there and how you described the-the environment, the trees, the humidity, I mean, everything was just, you know, compared to where you were, I think you, the book is very good, too, because of the fact that, you know, Kent State is well known, Jackson State is well known too, but not like, it evolved as you wrote in your book. I, that speech that Nixon gave on April 30th of 1970, you know, did tear this, the-the universities apart all over America. And you do a great description in your book about all colleges, you know, women's- TS: 37:28 Right. SM: 37:28 -colleges, Black colleges, you know- TS: 37:32 Even seminary. [laughs] SM: 37:33 Yes, seminaries. I mean it, it affected everybody. And the thing here is that it was, it took place in Jackson, Mississippi, that had such a terrible history of its treatment of African Americans. And it was segregation. It was, you can see a lot of people did not probably know a whole lot about Jackson State now, I believe, the coaches, which is a pro football players, now the head coach there at Jackson State. And the question I want to ask here is, again, that speech, if you could put it in your own words, how that speech itself really tore this nation apart. Because Nixon at that particular time, was trying to de-escalate the war. And this was like, I, college campuses, how there was an escalation. TS: 38:27 Well, we sure did. And we were, we were outraged. And-and what young people today have a great deal of difficulty understanding is one of the reasons why we, (19)60s students were so activist was that our lives were in danger. [chuckles] I mean, this was not some philosophical, some abstract academic debate. Our lives were in danger. If you went to Vietnam, you had a pretty good chance of dying. And if you were working class, and you are from a working-class town, you knew people who went and lost their lives. And so, this was very much a part of everyday life, and to watch television, and see the president come on and saying, you know, remember, all that stuff I said about a, a draft lottery. Remember all that stuff I said about the Vietnamization of the war effort in Vietnam, and how I was going to be bringing the American troops home. Well, forget about that. I am, I am marching into Cambodia, and oh, my God, I mean, it was like, dropping a match on a, a tinderbox. I mean, it was just unbelievable. And I knew at the time because we were, our city had a sack base, and I knew Air Force guys. And I knew that they told me, they told me, I could not believe it. They said, "You know, we have been doing flights over Cambodia. And we were bombing Cambodia," and I said, "What? You are not supposed to be doing that-that is illegal." They said, they were very knowledgeable, they said, "Yeah, we know it is illegal. And, but it is really happening." And this was before, it, that April speech. So, I already knew about it, it was already very concrete to me. But to see the President of the United States, come on, and actually justify it, and announce it. Wow, I mean, I- SM: 40:49 These-these are your words. This is a quote that you have in your book. It is on page 24. And this is Nixon speech, speaking that night toward the students or the people who were protesting. And I will just briefly be mentioned here, "My fellow Americans, we live in an age of anarchy, both abroad and at home. We see mindless attacks on all the great institutions, which have been created by free civilizations, in the last five hundred years, even here in the United States, great universities are being systematically destroyed." And that was part of his speech. TS: 41:25 Right. SM: 41:26 And-and, of course, we all know what him and Nick or Agnew we are doing for a long period of time, calling them bombs. And I think you have said that in your book, too. TS: 41:36 That-that, that remark, even more than the speech. I mean, the speech was the abstract embodiment of the policy. And we were horrified by that. But when they actually, you know, off the cuff, referred to us, and I cannot remember which one if it was Nixon or Agnew, I certainly knew at the time. I think it was Nixon, when I heard that. I mean, I can tell you that that really drove a wedge between young-young college students and the Republican Party. And-and really, the whole country because most-most parents were pro-war. I mean, this was a working-class nation at the time. People were not all that educated, sophisticated, unaccustomed it was right after WWII, it regarded themselves as, [coughs] excuse me, super patriotic. And-and, you know, our parents were not supportive at all of our anger, and our lashing out at, at this, at this war, and this-this incursion into Cambodia. It drove a wedge through generations, and through classes of people and-and there were students against students in our town, and I am sure of towns all over the country, they were very-very conservative. Very loosely goosey, people on the extreme right, who were running around town, threatening to use guns against students, or to protect their-their drugstore or whatever, we had one guy like that, and there were, there were just jockeys who lost their jobs over this. I mean, they would, there were people who were making comments on radio, and television that lost their jobs. You know, professors that got in trouble for their role on the campuses. It was just an incredible, turbulent time. SM: 44:06 Well Jackson State and Kent State are so united in so many ways, not only because they, the remembrance events that Kent State have always included Jackson State, but, and vice versa. But the one thing that, is personal experience myself, is that on the college campuses in the late (19)60s, I was at Ohio State in the early (19)70s. The divisions between Black students and white students was pretty strong. TS: 44:30 Right. SM: 44:31 And the fact is that Black students were saying, "Well, we are going to just work on the area of civil rights and protest that way," whereas the white students can do the anti-war stuff. But when this speech was given on April 30th, and the students at Jackson State obviously you know, heard about the four killed at Kent State and then this happened, they were protesting the war as well. And it was, the, it kind of as you state in your book, very important. It united again, the civil rights people with the anti-war people. TS: 45:06 It, to some degree it really did. SM: 45:08 It is historic in my view in that reason. TS: 45:11 Yeah. Well, it was interesting to me that Joe Hester's book, alleges that the first student hurt by the National Guard troops at Kent State was a Black student who was, [inaudible] that is in that book. Black students were upset too, because they knew that they were being drafted disproportionately, and disproportionately sent to Vietnam. They did not have middle class white parents, who were doctors, lawyers, dentists, whatever, judges sitting on draft, local draft boards, deciding who was to be drafted or not. They did not have that clout. But, there were plenty of people who are white like that, and they got a break. And-and also, a lot of Blacks felt that they were being sent to the front lines and dying, and they were dying in disproportionate numbers to whites. These are facts that-that young Black people were very aware of. Again, it was not like this was an abstraction, that this was some academic debate. They knew this. And so, Jackson State had that attack on a ROTC building, there was a small fire. They had a protest, one day outdoors on the commons, that was peaceful, they cared. But, the funny thing to me is, though, that nationally, journalists tend to look through one lens at Kent, and one lens at Jackson. And-and I have never talked to a white journalist on the subject, who agreed that there was anything in common between the two. Almost all of them said that well that-that, that thing at Jackson was that-that was just civil rights. And that thing, that was just, that was just the war, those two issues were joined at the hip. SM: 47:36 Yes. TS: 47:36 I mean, those were the burning issues of the (19)60s. And if you are in the least bit liberal, you were concerned about both of them. And if you were radical, you were more concerned- SM: 47:49 Yes-yes. TS: 47:49 -just a little about both of them. And, there was a lot of common cause struck between Black and white students, there were a lot of panel discussions on the campuses that week or two of turbulence. And a lot of those tables, those roundtables, included students of both colors. And-and they were talking about this together and respectfully. A lot of white students were trying very hard not to take over anything that Black students wanted to do, to dissent. They treated them respectfully and respect was returned. That is, that was my experience from what I saw on television and personally in life, in real life on the campus. And it was, it was interesting, but the media did not get it. What the media saw was, the media felt that well, you know, those white kids, oh, you know, they were kind of like, dope smoking hippies with long hair at Kent State and-and they were wearing their kind of grungy, any worn regalia. And then those kids at, at Jacksonville, you know, they, they were kind of sharp dressers, and they were more concerned about civil rights, and conflict on Lynch Street, and the twain never met. I mean that-that was the attitude that I got. SM: 49:29 Yeah, they were, they were all wrong. And the fact is your book- TS: 49:33 They were wrong, they were wrong, yes. SM: 49:33 -people need to read your book and-and understand what happened there. You had some great interviews in the book as well and one of them was a quote, and this was the 35-year-old Jackson State student talking about the four killed at Kent State. Now I am not going to use some of his words, but this is the quote, "The kids at Kent State had become second class n's," you know, what n's stand for. Oh, I know, yeah, I know exactly who that was, yeah. So, they had to go. Anytime you go against the system, you become a n. TS: 50:03 Right. SM: 50:04 Regardless of your color. And-and that was a 35-year-old student at Jackson State talking about after the tragedies happening at Kent State. TS: 50:18 That is right. And you know, I have never forgotten that idea, that concept. And I had seen it a couple other times in my life. But I think it is true. I think it is absolutely true what that, what that young man said, and the thing was that our, our parents, our elders, had lost a lot of, they were disenchanted. They felt that they had created this really great world, this wonderful, technically sophisticated, materially rich, middle class society. And, these kids were turning their backs on it. While we were, I mean, it was there was a real anti-material streak to our generation. And we felt that older people were making compromises with the, over the lives of Black people here in the United States, and over the lives of Asian people in Southeast Asia, to keep their way of life, keep their own white privileged way of life. This was a feeling pretty general among progressive young people. And we were not all progressive, believe me. But so, there was a real wedge between the generations, then. SM: 51:47 Could you talk a little bit, I want to make sure that the world knows at least, these tapes do not forget are going to be, people are going to listen to these 30 years from now. People yet unborn. Could you talk about the two students who died? I would like the world to know more about Philip Lafayette Gibbs and James Earl Green. I know James was a high school student. And I know that Philip Gibbs was a pre, a pre-law student at Jackson State. TS: 52:16 Sure. Philip, in some ways, was the most interesting, he was older and-and had political inclinations, therefore. So that is what made it, made him interesting to me. And the New York Times published a story saying that Philip was non-political, and was not interested in politics, and did not get involved in that kind of stuff. In other words, the suggestion being that he was completely and wholly innocent of any responsibility for the, for the Jackson State killings. Well, I agree with that part. Yeah, he was, he was innocent. But the thing is, he was not so innocent, that he-he did not have strong beliefs, and even actions regarding racism in Mississippi, because he did. He was an activist student, a high school student activist up in Ripley, Mississippi, a town that was once run by William Faulkner's, I think, grandfather or great grandfather, cannot remember right now. But anyway, who was assassinated there in Ripley in a town square. But in any case, Philip was, sat in on, at pools and theaters, cafes. He took part in sit-ins to integrate his town. He was very much an activist. And he, to be honest with you, I was told he really did not like white people. Because, let us just say that he did not come into contact very often with white people who liked him. And so-so he was that kind of kid. He was very political. He was very interested. Not so political that-that in, he was a leader in protests, and organizations like Snick, and things like that, no. But, when he was younger, he took part, as so many children did, in the demonstrations and protests in their towns of Mississippi, and in another small southern towns at that time. So that was Philip, and he happened to be in the wrong place. He was on a date that night. He just dropped off this girl, it was just, pretty much a platonic relationship, friendly relationship. It really was. I looked into it pretty deeply. And there were rumors about it at the time, but he-he was just walking across the lawn in front of Alexandra Hall after dropping her off. And he drops her off. He turns around, he walks a little bit, not very far. He did not get far, and he was gunned down. So, that is really sad. And then, I cannot help but call him Jimmy. Jimmy Greene was still a child. I mean, I cannot remember how old he was, maybe 14. And he was in high school. Jim Hill, that was the name of the high school. It was a segregated high school. Jim Hill was and-and Jim Hill was the other Black lawmaker that I was trying to remember. Jim Hill was a reconstruction era Black lawmaker, and he was buried on Lynch Street, in the Black cemetery there. But he went to Jim Hill and-and not too far from the high school. He went, he worked at a store, a little tiny mom and pop store called the Wag Bag. And- and, you know, he did he did, you know, just sort of manual jobs and he would, he was a car hop, he would, they, white people would drive up on Lynch Street, park at the curb. And Jim, Jimmy would come out and hand them their groceries, they would phone up first. And he would hand them through the car, through the car window. And, you know, and he set up, you know, gathered all the-the coke bottles and stuff that were stored to be recycled and that kind of stuff. I mean that-that is sort of work, sweeping up. Well, he was walking home, he lived in a little tiny rickety shotgun house. He was one of those poor kids that I was referring to earlier, lived on a side street off, off Lynch Street, off Dalton street, I think it was. And, he was just walking home from work, that is all. And he stopped to see what all the excitement was about. He was on Lynch Street behind the officers as they stood with their weapons. Some of them were facing, probably most but I am not sure, a lot of them were facing Alexandra Hall. But some of them were facing, behind them to protect police officers from any, any kind of rock throwing or whatever. But anyway, they were facing behind them, Roberts Dining Hall. And Jimmy was in front of Roberts Dining Hall near the sidewalk. And when the firing started, he probably ran, and he was shot right there. He was killed. And-and Jimmy brought money from his job. I mean, his parents had a lot of children. I do not remember how many they had. They had a very big family. And he was, I believe the oldest, I am pretty sure he was the oldest. And he gave his parents most of his earnings every week. And boy, they needed it. They really needed it. Those, those shotguns were really tiny-tiny places with just three rooms. And I do not know, I think the books tells you how many there were. They were, it was abject poverty. And, after the funeral, Charles Evers the brother of the slain civil rights leader, Medgar Evers. He gave them, he gave the family money to buy a house. SM: 59:35 Wow. TS: 59:36 And I interviewed them in that house. And it was not a shotgun. It was a very-very modest house, that could not have cost all that much but, Charles Evers, I mean this was his money. He did not have a fundraiser or anything for them. He just, he just, you know, in Mississippi real estate was not, Jackson real estate was not all that expensive, anyway, but I mean, really, he bought them a house. And they needed it. They really needed it, very poor. [crosstalk] It is sad story, so very sad story. SM: 1:00:14 Now, I think you mentioned that there is a memorial to them on campus that students walk by, just like they have at Kent State now. So, the students, many students obviously, probably do not know, current students, unless they know their history but, is that forever there on campus for them? TS: 1:00:37 Well, there was a, I think so, there was a small monument that looked like a, almost like a gravestone, a good size gravestone, in front of a men's dormitory. And I used to remember the name of the dormitory. I cannot remember it right now. But it might have been Sterling Hall, I am not sure. But anyway, there was a small monument there when I was doing my research in the, in the (19)70s and 1980. But then, the college was terrified that there would be another terrible incident on Lynch Street, because of white people driving through, and Black students are crossing the streets. And, you know, if somebody got hit by a car, or if somebody jeered racial, you know, racial slurs or whatever. The administration was terribly afraid that it would happen all over again, another incident like the three prior ones. And so, in the (19)80s, I believe it was, the state appropriated funds to put up a plaza, a big concrete plaza, to obstruct traffic from both sides, it was sealed off the street. And so, people could not drive through the campus anymore. And in that plaza, there is an inscription on it, and I cannot remember what it says. But it memorializes the loss of, of Green and Gibbs. And-and it, you know it-it honors those who were wounded there as well, if I recall. And it is right in front of Alexandra Hall, where the shooting took place. And the extraordinary thing is that if you, if you are there, well, let me put it this way, before the plaza was built, most students I talked to, and I mean, almost everyone had no idea what the bullet holes and Alexandra Hall from, now, I do not exaggerate. And I wrote a piece for The New York Times about, about the tragedy and-and I had a sentence in there saying that-that they did not remember. And, the copy desk told me that they were not going to accept that. They did not believe it, they did not believe that there were students there who did not know about the killings. Well, when I was doing my research, was in that 10 or 11, year period, after-after the incident occurred. The administration wanted to hush it up. They would not cooperate with me. And when it was an interview, they really would not. The president of the college would not talk to me. He was the president in 1970. He was still in office, and he would not talk to me. SM: 1:04:02 [inaudible] TS: 1:04:03 That is right. And-and the administration would not cooperate. I felt very fortunate when the library at least would let me go in and look at a, a little memorial collection of photos, and telegrams, and stuff that came out of that incident. And I felt very grateful for that. But they gave me a hard time. And I was shocked when they put that clause in and turn it into a memorial, but I guess they felt safe at that point. Safer because, more than 10 years had passed and without, without another terrible incident. And-and the fact that you know that, I think it helped everybody a lot including me. I felt better about the school and the administration, when they did memorialize what happened there, with this plaza, with the construction of this plaza. SM: 1:05:10 I have some, just general history questions. You are a historian. And I just want, you do not have to, really long answers here. But this deals with aeration. TS: 1:05:21 By the way, I apologize if I have been winded, [crosstalk] I got the impression you wanted me to, sort of, free associate. [chuckles] Oh, okay. What-what I will try to do is keep my answers brief for you now, and- SM: 1:05:29 One thing I do not want, I do not want to have, I have less of me and all of you. That is the most important thing here. But I just want to, hear your views on this as a historian, and so. And this dealing with an issue that- TS: 1:05:44 -if you want more, just ask for more. [chuckles] SM: 1:05:46 -Yeah, this is, as a historian, could you describe the racial progress with respect to what our presidents have done since WWII, and I break this down into four eras. The 1946 to 1960 era is Eisenhower and Truman. TS: 1:06:08 Okay, so you want to take that part first? SM: 1:06:10 Yep, yep, I am just, there is four of them, I just want to know what you think of Truman and Eisenhower with respect to race relations in America. TS: 1:06:16 Sure, okay. Harry Truman made the first move to, the first moves to desegregate the armed forces. Harry Truman, in campaigning for reelection in, pretty sure it was (19)48, had a civil rights plank, in the party platform. And he-he although a southerner showed a side of the party that we were not accustomed to seeing, pro civil rights, very surprising. And-and so that was his move forward. And- and he got a lot of grief for it because of Strom Thurmond of South Carolina basically ran against him and the Dixiecrat party, and-and that made it hard for Harry Truman to get reelected. A lot of Democrat, Democratic votes went to, to Strom Thurmond, the southerner, the segregationist, the Democratic Party was a segregationist party. That is important to remember. SM: 1:07:41 Right. TS: 1:07:41 It is not today, but it was then. SM: 1:07:43 Right. TS: 1:07:45 Okay, Eisenhower. His big claim to civil rights progressivism can only be that he sent troops to calm the situation at, in Little Rock, Arkansas, at Central High School, when there was a move to send nine Black children to study at Central, Central High School. And the-there was utter chaos. I mean, utter, utter chaos, terrible, terrible. Protests and-and beatings, beating of newspaper reporters, beating of like, photographers and cameramen, and slurs hurled at the children, the nine kids. They were kicked, and spat upon, and pushed down stairs, and oh, it was horrible, the way those nine kids were treated by the all-white, the rest of the student body which was white. And-and so there were troops patrolling the halls, and the grounds, and the street out in front and-and the governor then, Orval Faubus, Faubus was totally irresponsible at the time and stoked that I mean, he was a demagogue. And Eisenhower brought assemblance of rationality and peace to that situation. Assemblance, in part because he was motivated by the embarrassment to the American democracy created by this terrible, terrible thing. In Little Rock, the Soviet press went bananas over it, they loved it. They, they, this was a big propaganda gem for them. And, this was in the middle of the Cold War and we, the country hated communists. And, so this was his contribution. But in general, Eisenhower was pretty hands off on civil rights. He, another contribution he made but not a winning one was he nominated, Earl Warren to be chief justice of the Supreme Court. And Earl Warren had been a guy who had imprisoned or in turn Japanese, in western states during the war, and that was a, you know, a real black eye to him. So, he when, when he became the Chief Justice, however, he turned rather liberal, and went along with Brown versus the Board of Education. I mean, he-he worked very hard to get a unanimous and succeeded in getting a unanimous decision from the Supreme Court, to issue a ruling, striking down state mandated school segregation. And that was, oh, that opened the door to legislation, and court decisions doing the same to, to break down segregation, and in voting, and public accommodations, all through the south and even in northern states. Where there were, there were impediments to voting, even in states like Ohio, and unfortunately, there still are today. And so, that was a, a thing that he could claim to fame in the civil rights area. But he would not claim it- SM: 1:11:48 Right. TS: 1:11:48 -because he really was ticked afterwards, after that decision was handed down, and really rue the day that he had nominated Earl Warren. SM: 1:12:00 The, that was beautiful, the years 1960 to 1975, Kennedy, Johnson, Ford, and Nixon. TS: 1:12:08 (19)60, (19)75, Kennedy first, pretty lame on civil rights. He, like FDR, before him and Truman, I mean, he was a, he was a Democratic candidate for presidency in a party that is, very much a segregationist party. So, he was hamstrung if he, if he did very much. He might not be elected, if he did a little, he would not get the Black vote. So, he tried to do as little [chuckles] as he could to get some of the Black vote. The Black vote at that time in 1960, was not solid, Democrat. I mean, there were many Black Republicans. They regarded the Republican Party as the party of Lincoln. The party that helped place reconstruction and put reconstruction in place. [coughs] Pardon me. So, there were things that, the Kennedy people did later on, that were more progressive. Robert Kennedy helped a little bit. But Bobby Kennedy tried to discourage the Freedom Rides in (19)61, he really tried very hard to get the Freedom Riders not to take their anti-segregation crusade on buses through the south. Because he thought there would be violence and there was, there was violence. And those young people knew that there might be and, but they were very brave, very courageous. And they wanted the world to see just how vicious white segregationists were in the south, to see that the south was essentially a police state. That is what it was. And by Robert Kennedy, so this is trouble for his brother. It was, it was, and that is what the activists wanted, they wanted trouble. And because they want, they wanted segregation gone. And they wanted to see voting and-and they were right, they were right, but boy, they were courageous. They took big chances. SM: 1:14:50 Oh, Johnson and Nixon. TS: 1:14:55 Okay, Johnson, well, Johnson is to me, a heroic figure, in the sense that he, you know, he-he really fought for civil rights legislation. Paradoxically, he used the n word all the time. He was a southerner, he knew it. He knew that he had prejudices. He was very familiar with that. I think he was trying to live it down. I think he felt some guilt about that. But he wanted a historic place in history. And he saw it as gaining, going to bat for civil rights for Black people. He did that. He also knew, I mean, he was very shrewd. He knew that this was going to evacuate an awful lot of southerners from the Democratic Party. And he was correct, because today, they and their progeny are largely in the ranks of the Republican Party. And so, the Republican Party has become a, what I-I, a word that I-I like to use, I like to utter is neo, it is, the Republican Party is now a NEO-segregationist party. And it, it does not stand in the schoolhouse door, and block Black people from going to school or university. But it is, it is shutting the doors, in my view to the voting sites, trying to discourage Black people from voting, and it is an old story. So anyway, Johnson was successful with the Civil Rights Act of (19)64 and (19)65, which opened like public accommodations and voting rights. And-and he did lots of other things, too. That is to the good, to the bad, off the subject of civil rights, the Vietnam War. This was of his making, for the most part, the-he inherited a problem of Vietnam. But he vastly enlarged it, greatly and it is, that is to his detriment. I mean, it is a shameful episode, that more than a million southeast Asians lost their lives in that horrible, really-really racist war. SM: 1:17:43 Nixon and Ford. TS: 1:17:47 Nixon was trying to turn the clock back on civil rights, but not so abruptly that he was exposed for doing it. He was trying to, he was no friend of Black activists. Not at all. He-he developed a southern strategy, what-what was called the "southern strategy," to win the democratic votes from the escapees, from the democratic Party who resented the integration legislation that Johnson promoted. And he benefited from that, benefited from those votes as people move from the Democratic Party, as southerners moved from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party, and-and he used a lot of what we call today, "dog whistles," a lot of politely demagogic rhetoric. He and his vice president Spiro Agnew, to endear themselves to the southerners at the expense of Black voters. And but, he did not want to do it so abruptly that he would lose those suburban white voters. You know, because that is generally you know, the racist, the n word, the-the race baiting, that is not the style of conservative suburbanites. And he wanted to retain them. And so that explains, I think, part of that southern strategy, that dog whistle strategy. SM: 1:19:42 Did Gerald, did Gerald Ford do anything during his tenure? TS: 1:19:47 Well, geez, you know, I-I, oh geez. One other thing. Nixon, big thing. There is much more that I could say but, but I, Nixon is the busing, busing for the purposes of school integration was one of the hottest issues in 1970s. And in late (19)60s, and when George Wallace, a Democrat started winning, started gathering primary votes, in the presidential primaries for the Democratic Party, by opposing busing for purposes of integration, school integration, then Nixon came out and called for legislation to have a moratorium on court orders to achieve integration through school busing. And so, he went right into the column of the, what I would call I would call Nixon, a NEO-segregationist, that is the NEO-segregationist tactic of not using the n word, of not screaming and shouting, "Segregation now, segregation forever” but taking moves to achieve the same, the very same, end. That was Richard Nixon. And Gerald Ford, you know, I think it was just pretty much the same hands off, just let it go. Daniel Moynihan, a conservative Democrat, worked for Nixon and called for benign neglect of Black Americans in social policy, just let it go. We have, we have had an awful lot of turmoil in this country, just-just set it aside, benign neglect. And I think that is pretty much the policy, or the attitude of Gerald Ford. I mean, he was a, he was a conservative, he was not an advocate of, of civil rights. SM: 1:22:08 The-the next two groups, and then, then this will be the last on these questions on presidents, but it is an act of the (19)60s really, but it is the years 1976 to 2000. And of course, this is the beginning of boomers being presidents, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George Bush the first, and Bill Clinton. TS: 1:22:29 Okay, Jimmy Carter. Jimmy Carter had been I-I think, you could say a segregationist in his, in pretty much his orientation, as most, virtually all white southerners were. But he did make progress, growth, there was growth there in Jimmy Carter. And there were even dog whistles in his presidential campaign that were kind of chilling, and I believe there were dog whistles in his gubernatorial campaign as well. To say, hey, look, I am one of the good ol' boys, you do not have to worry too much about me. During his presidential campaign, he-he made a statement that he favored preserving the, quote, "ethnic purity of our neighborhoods," ethnic purity now, what could that mean? Sounds to me like a housing policy that was not going to integrate neighborhoods. That is what it sounds like to me. And he caught a lot of hell for that remark, as he should have. He was not an outstanding advocate of, of civil rights, not really. He did hire Andy Young. The aid to Martin Luther King, Andy Young was a minister like King was, and civil rights activist just as King was, he was King's right-hand man. And he gave him the job of the ambassador to the UN, which was a very, a real plum assignment. And but then because Young met with, on the, on, on the QT with Palestinians. At a time when we did not have relations with the Palestinian, Palestinian authority. Well, felt Carter felt compelled to fire Andy Young, and that really, in other words, when it whenever it came to push, and shove, and if you could lose Democratic southern votes, while you would do what you had to do. And-and that is, that is what Jimmy Carter did. So, he was a tepid, I would call him a tepid, moderate on race. He had other Black appointees in his administration, which was to the good. But was he a, you know, crusader, crusader for civil rights? No, I definitely could not, could not say that. SM: 1:25:24 Reagan and Bush. TS: 1:25:28 Reagan was just-just-just terrible, just terrible. Right from the very first day, he announced his presidential campaign in the Shelby County at the Nashoba County Fair in Mississippi. The Nashoba County Fair, was always, I mean historically, the place where rabble rousing, demagogic political candidates showed up to give their speeches. And that was its history. There were some like way in winter. Perhaps the first progressive, Democratic governor of Mississippi. He gave speeches there too, but he did not give the kind of speech that Reagan gave. Reagan went there. And he said that he was for states' rights. And a very clear sign that sort of like ethnic purity, a dog whistle, that, hey, I am one of the good ol' boys. I am on your side, do not worry about me. And Nashoba County besides having that history of political demagoguery at that fair, I have been there. It is a fascinating cultural phenomenon. And that county was where three civil rights workers were executed by local law enforcement officers who are basically working as Klansmen to get rid of civil rights workers, to get rid of people wanted integration. And they killed Michael Schwerner, Ben Cheney, I believe it was Ben Cheney, Ben, I think, Benjamin Cheney and-and Goodman, Andrew Goodman. And Goodman, and Schwerner were white, and Cheney was Black, and they were executed and their bodies were disposed of, in earthen dan, and their car was burned, and tossed into the water, and a, a shameful, one of the most shameful episodes in, in American racial history. And-and so for Reagan to go to that county, in that fair, and to invoke states' rights was just appalling. He did plenty more, he tried to get rid of the liberal and he succeeded largely, to get rid of the liberals in the Civil Rights Commission. And he stocked the commission with, with reliable Black conservatives, he did all kinds of things that-that just made it very difficult for the movement to move forward. And-and set the tone for the (19)80s, which was a period, in the (19)60s, under Johnson, you know, there were all kinds of books about civil rights, all kinds of memoirs and-and polemical books about civil rights and segregation. It was a fruitful time to buy books and read about our Black fellow citizens. That was really common. By the 1980s, man, it is like the whole publishing industry just locked right up. And it was sad, it was sad, although, you know, a wonderful book like Toni Morrison's "The Beloved," toward the end of that decade was published that-that is a great thing. But the whole culture, just Black issues, were just, almost non-existent, just ignored. It was a terrible time. SM: 1:29:29 George Bush, the first of his four years. TS: 1:29:36 Well, you know, more of the same, you know, it is pretty much a question of inertia when you are talking about Ford, Bush, and Bush too, I mean, it is really basically inertia. I mean, that party is pretty much running on the southern strategy, of endearing itself to, to the Neo-segregationists’ whites in the south, and the Neo-segregationists in the north. And-and Bush infamously gave, oh, gee, I am, I am blanking out on his name. Now, one of his, one of his surrogates, and political consultants from South Carolina, I may not be able to dredge the name up just now. He died of brain cancer- -supply the name, if you can supply the name. Anyway, he gave him his head to, to produce these political ads for his presidential campaign. And-and one of them used the-the case of Willie Horton, a Black man who I think, if I am not mistaken, was convicted of, I will just say crimes. It was convicted, and I cannot remember exactly what the charge was. He was convicted, and he went to, I believe, federal prison. And when George Bush senior ran against Michael Dukakis of the governor of Massachusetts, the Bush administration, Bush campaign ran an ad claiming that Dukakis basically supported paroling people like Willie Horton, who committed these vicious crimes. And this ad was so demagogic, it was very effective. It was devastating. And it had the imprimatur of George Bush. It had his okay. And it was produced by a southern Neo-segregationist, who later apologized for it, he was dying of brain cancer. And he, and he actually apologized for, for, for doing what he did, and some of the things he did of a, of a highly insensitive racial nature. And so, enough said about George, George Bush senior. SM: 1:30:38 Oh, yeah. Yeah, Bill Clinton, because he is the first boomer president. TS: 1:32:42 I am, on this subject, I am just ashamed to claim him as a boomer president, not only because of what he did with Monica Lewinsky, [laughter] and that whole sexual affair, I-I loathed him for that. I was one of the Democrats at the time, who said "No, this is not something we can, countenance, playing grab ass in the, in the Oval Office with a 21-year-old intern." This is beyond the pale, he needs to, he needs to leave and Mr. Gore needs to step in and take over. But on the issue of race, I am, I am just thoroughly ashamed of Bill Clinton. His first year in office was in foreign policy, just a disaster. screwed up every step he took. Some, we sent some, I believe, a boat with some, I will call them law enforcement officers or troops, limited, limited number to intervene in Haiti too, to assist in Haiti. And then apparently, the story was that there were, there were some, there was some opposition that formulated on the docks, I think in Port au Prince, but maybe some other city in Haiti, and there were weapons shown, maybe a knife or two or whatever. And he-he, he basically, his administration turned that boat around and hightailed it back for the United States. That was an example of, of one foreign policy screw up after another. So, what did he do? One of the Black appointments he made was Clifton R. Wharton Jr., a Black man to run the state department day to day. He was not Warren Christopher, the Secretary of State he was, Warren Christopher's right-hand man and running the store, keeping the store open. And so, Clinton trying to assuage his critics appease his critics, I should say, over his disastrous first year in foreign policy, he fires Clifton Warden, a Black man, one of his most prominent appointments. When he goes to try to, to appoint a new attorney general, he nominates among other people. He nominates Lani, Lani Guinier, a Black woman, a civil rights icon, in her time, very much an activist and-and very accomplished attorney. And, soon as the, she had written a paper, apparently, a law journal article, I believe in favor of racial quotas to achieve integration, and the Republicans started screaming and hollering about Lani Guinier being a quarter queen. Well, did not Bill Clinton backpedal right off and basically dump her nomination and, lightning quick. So, when it came to loyalty to his appointees, especially his Black appointees, Bill Clinton was just no good. I mean, just terrible. And- and also to try to triangulate, to curry favor with that Neo- segregationist white vote. He came out and made remarks about Sister Souljah, I believe a Black pop culture icon, music icon. I know nothing about her, except for she made some statements or had some lyrics that-that some white people, many white people took offense to. And did not Bill Clinton come out with a great big statement putting her down in a very big way. Why the President of the United States would lower himself to make a demagogic attack on a Black popular music figure is beyond me, is beneath the office. And it was a disgrace. And now, on incarceration. He-he was very much in favor of tough legislation, locking, locking away people who were involved in drug cases and other, other small crimes. I mean, this really fueled our huge incarceration rate among minorities that we have in this country today. I think in this, in the (19)90s, early (19)90s maybe, there were something like 1 million people in our prisons. Maybe I am wrong, maybe it was in the (19)80s, we had a million and-and by the end of the (19)90s, and into the 2000s, we had 2 million. There is no other country in the world that comes even remotely close to the-the numbers and proportion of its population in prison. South Africa, the union, the fascist Union of South Africa, gave us some competition for a while. But, we were number one, and we still are, and it is a disgrace. SM: 1:39:19 The, very well said on those presidents these are the final ones, of course, and you have already made a comment about the, this is 2001 to 2022. George Bush the second, and President Obama, President Trump, and the current President Biden. TS: 1:39:36 [laughs] Okay, I think we are first at Bush now. Bush Jr. I, 42, I think I already addressed- SM: 1:39:48 Yes. TS: 1:39:49 -with the inertia problem, the continuing use of the southern strategy. I mean, that just did not change. He courted the far right, as president and as a presidential candidate in ways that he did not court the far right, as the governor of Texas. An awful lot of Texans, progressive Texans were shocked to see his behavior in office, in Washington as president, because he did not show signs of that, as the governor of Texas. So, I think we can go put a ditto on his name. Now, the next is- SM: 1:40:37 President Obama, President Obama. TS: 1:40:39 -Obama. SM: 1:40:40 He is still, he is a boomer, but he was only like two or three years old. But yeah. TS: 1:40:44 Yeah, you know, I admire President Obama for some things. As a wonderful family man, father, as a brilliant man. But he was not a, he was not in the presidency, a figure of consequence on behalf of civil rights, is putting Eric Holder in the Attorney General's office to head that job. That is, that is great. I mean, that was wonderful, a good move. But many Black leaders of the Obama era and since, have really pretty clearly delineated the ways in which he fell short of promoting and supporting civil rights in his, in his administration. And, I can give you a couple of examples. One was again, the lack of loyalty to a, an appointee, I believe, well, no, I am not an appointee, appointee, I think, I do not think she was an appointee. Shirley Sherrod was a, a federal employee who is accused of making racially offensive or insensitive remark, by a right-wing outlet, I believe a website and it ran, the site ran a film clip of her giving a speech. And it made it, it was cropped or edited to make it sound like she was anti-white, bigoted against whites. But if you saw the whole thing she, she was not, she was actually very much the opposite. She worked in the agriculture department. And she was a civil rights activist in Georgia. A very ardent civil rights activist, a really good woman, decent, decent person. And his, he-he had basically his administration fired her, immediately. Almost immediately after that-that irresponsible demagogic report went out. And meanwhile, it took a day or two to see the whole film and it clarified that she was not guilty of anything racist or anti-white whatsoever. On the contrary, she was very much a great help to white farmers. She was a friend of the white farmer. Most farmers in Georgia are white and they liked her. And, but when all that was clarified, and that came out, and corrected, still, the Obama administration did not call her up, invite her back, gave her, and give her-her job back. She lost out. And it is, it is Obama did call her and we do not know what he said to her. Now another one was when Obama made a very good remark about Henry Louis Gates in Boston, Cambridge, being arrested for being in his own house. Black man, the foremost Black scholar of our times, a white cop goes and arrests him on his front porch for being, for trespassing on his own property, and he was not trespassing. [laughter] And Gates rightly got incensed, and so he was, he was charged. And Obama rightly said, "Look, this was really stupid." I think stupid was the word Obama used. And boy, did not a, white neo-segregationists go bananas over that, and give Obama hell. And so, what-what does he do? He has the cop who arrested him, with Gates, show up at the White House grounds for a beer so they can sit down and talk together. You know, I mean, what the cop did was beyond ignorant, I mean it was so ignorant to, to arrest a man in his own home. And-and Henry is the most, possibly one of, one of maybe 5 or 10 best known African Americans in the nation. And he arrests the guy in his own home. Now, if that is not the very definition of stupid, I do not know what is. And then to, and then to just charge this very-very tepid, moderate, middle course between them to have a beer on the grounds of the White House with them both outdoors, where the cameras could see them from a long distance. What a shameful, just a shameful moment. But I admire Obama. He was a good president, for the most part, the ACA was, the, Obamacare was a wonderful thing. He handled a lot of racist abuse with a plumb abuse from the Tea Party, rabble rousers, name callers of all sorts like that guy from I think South Carolina, who said he lied. During his State of the Union speech, the man who screamed out "You lie," to him. I mean, Obama put up with a lot of crap. And he did it, gracefully, with a lawn, and I admire him for that. But I think he-he could have been more progressive on the issue of, of civil rights. He tried too hard not to appear the angry Black man in the presidential office, I realized he was hamstrung, I understand that I understand the problem he had. I understood that to be elected and reelected, you really need, need not, you need to keep even some of those neo- segregationist votes. But still, I think he could have done more. In his last year, he began to speak out more forthrightly in the Trayvon Martin case where Trayvon Martin, a young Black man was slain by a man, a kind of vigilante, who was trying to keep his neighborhood safe. When he said that, you know, if I had, if I had a son, he would look like Trayvon that-that was a, that was a wonderful remark. And he took an awful lot of crap for that. But that was, that was a help. That was a good thing. So, Obama is not anti-civil rights. But he is not, you know, he is not an avid in office, pro-Black figure. SM: 1:48:27 How about Donald Trump? TS: 1:48:31 Donald Trump went well beyond the southern strategy. He threw, he threw away the dog whistle. And he just openly embraced bigotry, expressed and stated, I mean, he was just wide open with it. When he announced again, it is interesting how these people announced their candid, candidacy. When Reagan did it, he did it in Neshoba county, embracing states' rights. And when Trump did it, he did it on his golden escalator at Trump Tower. And he called for a, well he-he attacked immigrants from Mexico as being, rapists, thieves, and murderers. "They do not send us their best people," he said, and he then very soon afterward, not long after he was, I believe he was in office and that is when he actually called for a Muslim, a ban on immigration of all Muslims. I mean just-just deplorable demagoguery, the kind of demagoguery, demagoguery we used to expect from southern governors in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Men who used the n word. That is what we, I mean, he was giving us that kind of leadership. And-and what-what was the result? I mean, we have had shootings at synagogues. We have had, you know just-just a terrible four-year period, we had the, backlash from the Black Lives Matter, people with the executions of so many young Black men, usually Black men. And mistreatment of Black people and jeez, you know, talk to a cabbie, even talk to a cabbie today, as I often do, and a cabbie will tell you that the-the abuse that they take, if they are a Muslim, or a Black man. The abuse that they take from white riders in the back, you know they are, they are, this has just become so much a part of our daily lives now. It is intolerable. And it is, you know, I just did not realize, I did not fully appreciate the degree to which good, wholesome, moral leadership mattered to white adults. I thought, in the mass, in the great mass, white adults did not need a babysitter on the subject of race and morality. But Donald Trump proved that they do. They do. Donald Trump did one wonderful thing for us, all of us. He taught us who we are, and America is still a racist nation. And I think he proved it. SM: 1:52:02 Very-very well said and, of course, our current president, Joe Biden, he has been here one year he got an African American female vice president, your thoughts on him so far? TS: 1:52:15 Well, Joe, was a tepid moderate in the Senate. He was not a progressive. He was not an advocate of, of school, busing for the purpose of school integration. And as a matter of fact, he was an opponent. And I think that really pretty well delineates where he stood on civil rights pretty much, in his Senate years. Delaware is a border state. Delaware was a rigidly segregated state, it had segregated schools, racially segregated schools. It is pretty clear where he stood as a Democrat, right in the tepid center. And while he did campaign, in Black barber shops and do things like that, and he handled himself with dignity, in friendships, and in his discussions with Black people that he met, nonetheless, he was not going to take any chances, on losing white votes by staunchly, but by being a staunch advocate of civil rights, but he was a thoroughly decent man. And James Clyburn, whom I really-really admire, sensed that he was, Biden was the only white candidate seeking the presidential nomination in, in 2016, who could win it- SM: 1:54:07 Right. TS: 1:54:07 -and win the president and take the presidency. And so, he backed him. And that won for Biden, the Black vote. But when, in an interesting moment, is, the woman who is now his vice presidential, his vice president, challenged him in a presidential debate, primary presidential debate, campaign debate on the issue of school integration. Biden did backtrack, you know, he more or less stuck with where he had been. That is not for, I think, for the purpose of school integration. And he later made a statement that did not get a lot of attention. But he made the statement that you know, vice president, Ms. Harris, also, you will notice is not campaigning aggressively on integrate, for school integration, which was true, because she too, needed white votes on behalf of the team, to become vice president. And Kamala Harris is really not terribly, terribly progressive herself. And the thing is, she at least kind of faked a progressive stand on school integration with him, and challenged him to try to defeat him in that, in that high-profile moment. But- SM: 1:55:50 I know. TS: 1:55:51 -I do not know, I thought that situation really told us a lot about both Harris and him. SM: 1:55:57 I know that he took a lot of heat for the Anita Hill hearings, so- TS: 1:56:01 Right. SM: 1:56:02 -yeah, when he was head of the committee. TS: 1:56:05 Right, well, I guess you could, you could argue that it was racially neutral, because what he did was to, you know, to the benefit of Clarence Thomas, who was also Black. And it was to the detriment of Anita Hill. And he has regretted and apologized for his behavior, and it was inexcusable. And, but that really does show you how conservative the guy was. I mean he was really quiet, Delaware is not a progressive state. I mean, in racial terms it, it was not. SM: 1:56:45 Some people, thank you for going through this. I think this is one of the most important parts of this interview was your commentary on our presidents because the issue of race today in the news is every day. You go into the Barnes and Noble bookstore, I have never seen so many books on the topic. And-and I think it is really very timely. Some people say the (19)60s was divided into two parts. The first part was 1960 to 1963. And the second one from 1963 to 1973, or (19)75, depending. And I think I know what they are referring to, they are referring to when John Kennedy was assassinated, that was the first half. Your thoughts on that? TS: 1:57:31 I-I, (19)60 to (19)63, I think there is some wisdom in that I would probably want to push the boundaries a little farther to (19)65. Because the legislation, that was the logical outcome of the early (19)60s, protests for civil rights came, did not come out until (19)64 and (19)65. But you could see that the tenor of the protests were growing more bitter, towards (19)65. There is no question about that, the rise of Malcolm X, for instance. But the (19)60 to (19)63, yeah, I can see some wisdom in that. But for me, I would expand the boundaries of that to (19)65 when the legislation that opened things like theatres, and swimming pools, and motels, and restaurants. I mean, this, really, you could argue that nothing concrete came out of all those protests until that moment in (19)64, when that (19)64 Civil Rights Act passed. And-and also, you know, the voting did not really, the floodgates did not really open until after (19)65, when the (19)65 Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act passed. So that is why I would push those boundaries that far. And then the other era, you said was what? SM: 1:59:22 It was the 1963 to 1973, or (19)75. You know, we have the new senator here at Binghamton, which is 1960 to (19)75. And that is because symbolically that is when the helicopters fall off the roof in Saigon. So, that gets kind of the end of the Vietnam War. But (19)73 was also the peace conference on Vietnam, which was not really. really that successful cause- TS: 1:59:47 Oh, so you are talking more broadly. I-I was talking specifically about civil rights, were you? SM: 1:59:57 -yes, I am talking, when I am talking about the six, the two breakdowns of actually, it was one of the people that I am going to be interviewing down the road, Dr. Josiah Bunting, the third, he said he has always looked at the (19)60s divided into two parts, the period up to (19)63, from (19)60, over the death of John Kennedy. And that period of activism, which is really from (19)63 to (19)73, or (19)75. TS: 2:00:23 I-I would not go with that part of it. From the point of view of civil rights, I think the, it was pretty much over, the civil rights movement was over by 1968. When Nixon was elected, it really is over. And, you know, you had that horrible, horrendous Detroit riots in (19)67. And then, the riots in (19)68. And, as the-the Martin Luther King, post King's assassination riots, the civil rights organizations were beginning to unravel. Stokely Carmichael's Black power movement, deprived Snick of white participants. And I-I, I think most people agree that the Civil Rights Movement dies with King in (19)68. It is, it is over, it is just over. And Nixon is in charge, and everything begins to reverse in civil rights, as I see it. At that time, so, now with the war, it is different. And-and I-I mean, from my point of view, I, the continuing war, and the continuing kind of hot resistance to the war. To me, that period ends in (19)71. Night you had, the turbulence of May 1970. And that, to me is the climax of the anti-war movement. That for me is the climax. I never saw anything like that, afterward. And it burned itself out, as I see it very fast. One year later, one in the spring, one year later, May (19)71. There was a-a big demonstration in Washington, major demonstration and-and carpet tacks where, the nails were spread on the bridges into Washington. Anywhere activists were trying to bring government to a halt that day. Nixon was basically wielding the city police as a bludgeon to, keep the- [silence] SM: 2:03:15 Hello-hello, hello? [silence] TS: 2:03:29 In May of I believe it was May, but maybe it was April, that-that huge Washington anti-war demonstration where activists were trying to close down government for a day. And Nixon brought in the police chief, and thanked him for basically beating up all kinds of war protesters, and that is what happened even innocent people just sitting on their front porches, adults not, not young activists, just sitting on their porch watching what was going on. I mean, police were going up, staircases, and onto porches, and beating the crap out of citizens. It was just unbelievable. And like the next day, Nixon has the-the police chief and to thank him for-for doing it. I think that is anticlimax. But still, I mean, it showed the resistance continuing. But boy after that, I do not know the anti-war movement- -to me, is pretty well shot. And it just, I think Nixon let the air out of that, anti- war movement with a couple of things. One big thing was the draft by having an all-volunteer army that made a lot of young people no longer fearful of dying. So, that removed a, a reason to fight for a lot of them. And, I think the whole tragedy of Kent and Jackson State had a real depressing effect on young people. I mean, the idealism was just, you know, it was just, awful, I mean, [crosstalk] hopes and dreams for a better country, you know. SM: 2:04:35 Right. At the times in the newspapers when this all happened, when the tragedies happened at Kent State and Jackson State, and of course, they were talking about when the war came to middle America, you knew the war was over. I mean, most of America is now going to, you know, be against the war. And there is some, there is some truth to that-that was in the papers a lot, at the time. TS: 2:05:48 It went pretty, it went pretty mainstream, but the heartbreaking thing is, that damn war continued. And we were exterminating all these Asian people every damn day with our bombs. You know, I mean, air attacks, week after week, year after year, I mean, even resuming bombing after, at Christmas time, the Christmas bombing of Henry Kissinger. Progressives of my generation today, think of Henry Kissinger as, a little better than a war criminal. But still I see our mainstream news media, genuflect to this-this 90 plus year old man is if he is some sort of sage. I just cannot believe it. That is how conservative the country is. SM: 2:06:46 I know it is hard to do this. And you can just, you can just, I got three more questions, and then we will be done. We are a little, but that is you, it has been a great interview. If you were to pick between (19)60 and (19)75, if you were to pick five individuals, male, female, I do not care what it is, that were either positive or negative towards the, this era, who are the five people that you would pick? TS: 2:07:16 Martin Luther King top, Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson. So, that is what, three? Martin Luther King, Martin Luther King, wow. As the five most influential in that period, gosh I, it is not as if I cannot come up with names of that era. But those are the ones that really occur to me. Those are the ones that really-really grabbed me. SM: 2:07:30 Yep. Right. TS: 2:08:06 I mean, they there is just such towering figures. SM: 2:08:10 Yeah, I agree. I agree. I know, some people might say, Bob Dylan because of the music. And that is, that he has been a powerful person in the music world. There is no question about. TS: 2:08:23 Well, that is popular culture, I was thinking more in terms of, I was thinking more in terms of the political culture of the- SM: 2:08:32 Right. TS: 2:08:32 -of our society. Martin, I mean, my God, what an extraordinary man, and Nixon for the exact opposite, such an ordinary flawed man. And-and Johnson also in a way for the opposite, such an ordinary flawed man who had great aspirations, and did a wonderful, wonderful thing, and helping to encourage a second reconstruction. You know, that is, that is the, to me, that is his big, he gets a, a plus and a minus. You know what I mean? SM: 2:09:13 Yes. TS: 2:09:14 Nixon is all minus, all minus in my in my field. But we know, by the way, one thing I did not mention to you is that Nixon did decide to go on the Supreme Court case, in 1970, a Supreme Court ruling that forced the southern states, those that mandated segregated schools to stop immediately, before it was all delivered, speed, which was not very, which was all deliberation and no speed. Well, believe it or not, the Nixon administration, his ATW secretary, Fench I believe it was- went along with it. I mean, the administration was, went along with it. And the south integrated in the, by the 1980s, far more than the north ever integrated- SM: 2:10:07 Wow. TS: 2:10:07 -its schools. SM: 2:10:08 Yep. When you go to the Vietnam Memorial, one of the basic symbols of the (19)60s but, for all time, you know, that war, that unjust war that we all know about, that really is the watershed event along with civil rights, and for the boomer generation. When you visit the wall, and you look at that wall, what do you see? And what feelings are going through your mind, not just because the names are there, what do you see, sensing in your mind? What are you feeling? TS: 2:10:43 I am just speechless, like most people, speechless and heartbroken. And see, young bodies, dead bodies, corpses. I see a tragic pile, tragic waste, a pile of dead bodies. And I reflect on the uncounted, unnamed over in Asia- SM: 2:11:16 Yes. TS: 2:11:17 -because they lost about a million. No, actually, I think I read it was 2.1 million. SM: 2:11:25 Actually, you know- TS: 2:11:26 I think it was, I think I read it just-just like about a week or so ago, 2.1 million Asians. SM: 2:11:32 -yeah-yeah, I think you are right. And some people said up to 3 million because of the fact, we are not only talking Vietnam, we are talking Laos. [crosstalk] TS: 2:11:42 Laos, you know, Cambodia, North Vietnam, South Vietnam. Yeah, definitely. SM: 2:11:49 And another, another thing too. But when you hear people today, say, well the (19)60s have returned with today's protests. I have very funny feelings about this. I do not think it is the same of the (19)60s. At the activism of the (19)60s, we are going to- we are talking 70 percent of the people probably were activists, during that timeframe, and probably the same things happening today. But the bottom line is this, it was a different time, there were different issues. TS: 2:12:17 You think 67 percent of the young population were activists? SM: 2:12:22 No, that is I have gotten that from many of the interviews that I have had from- TS: 2:12:27 I sure do not. I do not, I do not think at all. SM: 2:12:31 -how many do you think there were percentage wise? TS: 2:12:33 Oh, much-much, much lower, much lower, you have to realize it is a big country. Well, I just think that when you think about those times, you have to realize the complexity. You there? SM: 2:12:56 Yeah, I am here. TS: 2:12:58 The complexity of American society, it is not all private elite universities in the northeast and-and public and-and distinguished public universities. I mean, it is a very diverse country. And I do not think you could say at all, most people were activist, nowhere near it, and I would not, nowhere near 50 percent. SM: 2:13:27 I-I was mentioning 7 percent. TS: 2:13:31 Oh, you said seven. I thought you said 70. SM: 2:13:34 No, I said seven, 7 percent. TS: 2:13:36 Oh-oh, okay. SM: 2:13:38 Yeah. And that is, and I have gotten that from a lot of including Tom Hayden and you know, other people. The key thing here is that when people say and I see these protests today, they have been going on for several years. And you know, of the whole, over the issue of race, it seems to be as, we have so many issues in this country, we take two steps forward and two steps backward. But the thing is, I, it is a different it is, I just cannot compare what happened to the (19)60s, and where people say we are back to the (19)60s. I do not, I do not buy it. And I do not know how you feel about it. It is a totally different thing. And today, it is even scarier than what it was back then. That is what, that is what I feel like. Still there? [silence] Oh my goodness, what is going on here? TS: 2:14:35 But, okay, enough-enough on that, on that subject. Is it like today, is today's Black Lives Matter? Well, in one respect, I think I have more respect for them. And the sincerity and depth of their commitment then for us, the boomers because those, those young people stuck with us and a lot of them were boomers too. There were a lot of boomers, I saw out in the streets. SM: 2:15:05 Right. TS: 2:15:07 They stuck with it for a year. You know, the whole Kent State, Jackson State furor that flamed out very fast- SM: 2:15:16 Right. TS: 2:15:17 -I mean, really fast. And an awful lot of it was very histrionic. An awful lot, the news media were new, back then. The broadcast media were new. And I think a lot of people in our generation really and-and some of the activists just a few years before the boomers, like people like Tom [inaudible], I think a lot of folks of his age, really enjoyed, Abbie Hoffman comes to mind, really loved the limelight, really loved to have the cameras on them. Very-very histrionic, very dramatic. And-and I have great doubts about their sincerity. I mean, not some, I mean, you know, some of them like Jerry Rubin went to work on Wall Street as a stockbroker, you know, who is another one. Eldridge Cleaver, he becomes a clothing designer, and he designs clothes with a big pocket for the testicles, to feature them in his- the pants line, and he was run. I mean, I do not want to caricature everybody as shallow, and histrionic. But there was a lot of that stuff in both the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement. A lot of crazy ideas, a lot of silly nonsense, a lot of posing. But I get the feeling from these Black lives matter people hold a whole lot of sincerity and with the Wall Street group too, after the, with the Great Recession, protesting down in Wall Street. I think there was a lot of depth and organization, and sincerity there. I do not want to say that, I do not mean to suggest all (19)60s young activists were shallow, and histrionic, but there was an awful lot of that. SM: 2:17:20 Right. TS: 2:17:21 And I just somehow respect the young people who got so involved with Black Lives Matter. I really, I really do great respect for. SM: 2:17:31 One presidential candidate that I did not mention was the hippie's candidate, Pegasus and I wanted to [laughs] make sure you make a comment on that. TS: 2:17:41 I do not know anything about him. Assuming it is a- him, I-I never had the name. SM: 2:17:47 It is a pig, it is a pig. That was Jerry Reuben in Pegasus. TS: 2:17:49 Oh, it is a pig [laughs]. Well, I would not okay. I remember that. No, no, I did not know the name. But yeah, do not leave out the pet Paulson candidacy. [laughs] SM: 2:18:03 Oh, that is how can you do that, my goodness? Yeah. The one final question I have is I have been trying to do this the last couple interviews, I have done the last three or four. And that is, these interviews are going to be eventually heard down the road by people who are not even alive. TS: 2:18:19 Yeah you said that, you said that. SM: 2:18:21 10 ,20, 30, 40. If there is anything you want to say to those individuals who have listened to this tape, or have an interest in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and race relations, if there is anything you would like to say to future generations who are going to hear you, you may not be around anymore, I will not be. But they are going to be here, and they are the future. What would you like to say to them? TS: 2:18:48 If I can venture to offer some advice is struggle on. Do not give up. As you get older, keep on pushing for a better society. You too, are going to go the way of all flesh into the great beyond. Leave something behind for another generation, justice, social justice, fairness. That is my suggestion, struggle on. SM: 2:19:22 Very good. Tim, it has been great interview and I am going to turn off, hold on one second. Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Tim Spofford IIIF Item Metadata UUID 71f75c3e-6d02-4eda-8ccd-bb5fb721ed9a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/11e96e7b6f69bdd302e037857363dbd3.jpeg 25968e418b636a12ce371c37e884d620 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c0f0f216fe0ed4a578bcad7eee85f77c.mp3 8830f30d5cf228b4e9400020677347e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-01-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bruce Margolin Biographical Text Bruce Margolin is a criminal defense attorney who specializes in marijuana and drug laws. Margolin grew up in Los Angeles, California. He has been practicing law since he was 25 years old, after earning his law degree from Southwestern Law School in 1966. In 1999, Margolin was awarded the Criminal Defense Attorney of the Year award by the Century City Bar Association. He has been executive director of the LA chapter of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws since 1973. He is the writer of the Margolin Guide to Marijuana Law. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:38:32 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Law; drugs; Los Angeles; The trip to India; Criminal attorney; Practising law in California; Late 1960s; Communal movement. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bruce Margolin IIIF Item Metadata UUID 9ccbbf0b-f678-4838-8442-713a713cbf37