178 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/37c297add8ee6bbdd949c88198d0a495.jpeg 3c84f13f51873827db7b78e44772958f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5c8e97cb4a32125dbc47d150d0718fed.mp3 ebd3b69e47b2f416ce935181080a7fbc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-10-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edith Lederer Biographical Text Edith Lederer is a war journalist and author. She was the first female resident correspondent in Vietnam and the first woman to head a foreign bureau for the Associated Press. She covered wars, famines, nuclear issues, and political upheavals during her four-decade career with the AP. She co-authored War Torn: Stories of War from the Women Who Covered Vietnam. Lederer has a Bachelor's degree from Cornell University and a Master's degree in communications from Stanford University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:08:23 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Vietnam war; Story; Women; Saigon; Associated Press; San Francisco; People; Bureau chief; Helicopters; Writing, Cornell University; Editor; Vietnam memorial; Journalist; Interview; News. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Edith Lederer Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 26 October 2022 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:04 Edith, I want to thank you for agreeing to do the interview. EL: 00:06 My pleasure, thank you. SM: 00:10 And I love reading your section in the book, War Torn: Stories of War from the Women Reporters Who Covered Vietnam. The first question I would like to ask is could you describe where what your growing up years were like your parents, where you grew up in elementary and high school and certainly your college years. EL: 00:34 I was born in Manhattan, at Beth Israel Hospital. My grandparents emigrated to the United States to escape pogroms in the late 1800s. My parents were both first generation Americans. My mother became a kindergarten teacher. My father was a pediatrician. Unfortunately, he got Hodgkin's disease then this was in the (19)40s in the early 1940s, which was incurable at the time. And he passed away when I was a year and a half old. My mother remarried when I was about six, and I grew up on Long Island. I graduated from Valley Stream, North High School, which was a new school at the time, we were the third graduating class. My parents did not have a lot of money. So, I definitely could not go to a private college or university. When my father died, my great aunt and uncle moved in to take care of my older sister and me. And I was lucky enough to apply to one of these state colleges that Cornell University, which was then called the College of home economics, and is now called the College of Human Ecology. And I got in and I graduated from Cornell in three years. It was partially me being a young woman in a hurry, but also finances. And I, I had not been on my high school newspaper, I was news editor. And when I went to Cornell, I thought I might go into the women's and journalism. I graduated from high school in 1960. And, you know, that was really just the dawn of the Women's Liberation Movement. SM: 04:01 Mm-Hmm. EL: 04:04 When I was at Cornell, I decided so I would rather go into Harvard news journalism. And I knew that as a woman, I would never get a job unless I got, I went to graduate school. So, I applied to all the major graduate schools in journalism. I got into all of them except Columbia, because they did not consider that I had an academic degree. Even though I had a Bachelor of Science degree from Cornell. They did not like the College of home economics. And it ended up being a pissing match between the presidents of Cornell and Columbia, because James Perkins, who was then president, and the dean of the home at school were both outraged. Anyway, I did not care because I got into Stanford, and I got a resident assistantship, which pay my room board and two thirds of my tuition. So that was a huge, huge bonus for me. And in addition, it was a one-year master's program. So, it was terrific, in in many more ways than just financially because California opened my eyes to a whole different world. And I did my master's project on press coverage, the Democratic and Republican conventions. In 1964, I got to work as a messenger, a photo messenger for United Press International, which was amazing, because as a photo messenger at that time, you actually have access all over the floor of the convention. And I got I had a contact at editor and publisher, which was then a very influential magazine for jobs at cetera, and coverage of the news industry. And the editor writes My master's project, which was a series of articles. So much that editor and publisher published it. SM: 07:35 Wow. Very good. EL: 07:38 And this editor, saboteur who was what was Rick's last name, anyway, he, he told me to put an ad in and say you apply for jobs because I did not have any real contacts. And they made a mistake in the head. And instead of saying that I had a background in psychology, they said, physics. As a result of that, physics. I actually got an answer from a Scripps Howard news and called Science Service. SM: 08:29 Hmm. EL: 08:31 Which published a weekly newsletter printed, like sort of a skinny Time Magazine for sci fi on science based in Washington, and even though they were told immediately that I had no background in physics, but I did not know the social sciences, they hired me. And I had a fascinating year and they were writing back up on medical stories and also covering like the American Psychological Association, the American Sociological Association, a lot of very interesting stuff. I had never traveled out of the country and my uncle, as a graduation gift had given me a plane ticket to Europe. And I asked for a leave. So, I could go to Europe, because at that time, he only got like two or two weeks of vacation or less, and they would not give it to me. So, I quit. And I went to Europe and hitchhiked around Europe with one of my Cornell girlfriends for three months. And when I tell people that today they are shocked, but in those days, everybody hitchhiked in your I came back. And I then took out all of the early rejection letters that I had, because I did not have any experience because then I had all my clips from site service. And I was a finalist for a job at the Washington Post and lost out to a guy. But I was hired by the AP's New York Bureau Chief, Doug Lovelace to fill in on what was called AP local, which was a city news service that the AP ran. Wow, certainly in the (19)60s and early are for the many, and I am talking about a dozen, at least New York City newspapers, plus dozens of radio stations. And then, you know, television, I guess, been in New York City plus the surrounding area, which is of course, New Jersey, and Connecticut. And I, I worked on AP local. It was quite an incredible time. And I got to cover some amazing things. I mean, I-I covered Martin Luther King. I think in the first three days I was there, I covered Britain's Prince Philip, going to a toy fair, I covered student riots at Columbia University. And at that time, you know, I would not go I often worked nights, I would work from 3 to 11. And I do not the rubber, the rubber chicken circuit, I covered Bobby Kennedy Senate campaign and travel with him. And in 1968, I got asked if I wanted to go transferred to San Francisco, I got offered that and I said yes. And I arrived in San Francisco in June of 1968 on the day that Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. In Los Angeles. It was a time of incredible ferment between student unrest, the Black Power movement, the end of the hippie movement. There was a tremendous amount going on in California at that time. And, you know, I got to cover lots of it. And that was quite amazing. Every, every year, AP would send you sort of, like a form that we all nicknamed, you know, what do you want to do when you grow up? And I always said that I wanted to be a foreign correspondent. Because after-after going to Europe I was I was not, you know, seeing the rest of the world. But it was sort of a joke because the AP had a foreign editor at the time named Ben Bassett, who refused to have a woman on-on the foreign desk and you had to work on the foreign desk in order to become a foreign correspondent, he did not think that women had what it took to cover more disasters crews, big international stories. So, I was quite shocked. One day in the summer of 1972, to get a phone call from the president of the AP West Gallagher asking if I wanted to go to Vietnam. I have to add that while I was in California in San Francisco, I also would go to Sacramento to cover the California Assembly whenever it met. This was the era when Ronald Reagan was governor. And yes, there was a big jar of jelly beans on his desk. And it is quite amazing that the young, the young assembly men that I am and women that I met Ben, quite a number of them went on to great, you know, future jobs. I mean, of course, Reagan went on to be the governor went on to the president, but Pete Wilson, whom I sat next to in the assembly chamber became governor, Willie Brown became speaker of the assembly and Mayor of San Francisco. So anyway, it was it was, it was a fascinating time. In retrospect, SM: 17:08 When you look at the yet when you look at it- EL: 17:10 Go ahead. SM: 17:11 Go ahead. EL: 17:12 No, go ahead. SM: 17:13 Yeah. When you look at that period of time, when you were in San Francisco, there were so many things happening. Of course, the Black Panthers became a reality. There- I think there was the-the Angela Davis trial, the- EL: 17:26 I cov- I covered the Angela Davis tri- trial with my colleague from Los Angeles, Linda Deutsch, who became one of my best friends. And we are still great friends today. And she went on to an illustrious career as a trial correspondent. I mean, she covered everybody from Manson, Ellsberg. Michael Jackson, is OJ Simpson. He covered all those trials. SM: 17:59 Did you cover the counterculture too and Haight Ashbury and Golden Gate Park and all those things are happening there? EL: 18:05 A little a little bit of it. Yes. And, you know, that was I do not know whether you remember there was a professor who became president of San Francisco State S. I. Hayakawa [Samuel Ichiye Hayakawa] SM: 18:22 Yes. I know him real well. Yep. EL: 18:24 I covered I helped cover. You know him for sure. SM: 18:29 Yeah, remember, there is a lot of protests in San Juan in San Francisco. EL: 18:33 That is cor- That is correct. Lots of protests. SM: 18:36 He went on to become senator. I think Patricia Hearst was also the happened to be- EL: 18:43 Yeah, that is, that is funny, because I came back from Vietnam. In like September, October of 1973. Or maybe August, September. I am trying to remember when Patty Hearst got kidnapped. SM: 19:13 That was around (19)74, I think. EL: 19:18 Was it (19)74? While I was back in San Francisco, and the day she got kidnapped, was also the day that Angela, Angela, Angela, Mia Alioto [Angela Mia Alioto Veronese], the mayor of San Francisco's wife reappeared. Camping disappeared for, I do not know, two weeks. Nobody knew where she was. So, I ended up other-other colleagues covered the day of the kidnapping. I covered Angela Mia Alioto's return. And I mean, her story was quite crazy also. I guess she and Joe were not getting along too well. And she decided to go on a tour of all the California missions- SM: 20:17 Was in the capital of California at that time, I know the Black Panthers had a went to the capitol and surrounded it. And they were had their guns. And were you covering all that as well? EL: 20:29 No-no-no, I was not there when they did that at the Capitol? Definitely not. I mean, I, you know, there was Huey Newton, the Huey Newton trial. So-so, that is what I know. From that, from that Black Panther part, I certainly did cover the Angela Davis trial and all the fallout from that. And that was an amazing trial also. SM: 21:15 When you when you compare the journalism that you became a part of back in the San Francisco, and we were going to go to Vietnam in a couple minutes. How do you compare that today? But what I am trying to get at, I know you are a great journalist. And the thing is, what does it take for young people to take your life and to become a great journalist too what are the qualities necessary to be a good, a really good journalist that covers a story, and as you say, in your book, or in the thing, to be very responsible and doing it? EL: 21:54 Well, one of the things that I think has changed dramatically, is the arrival of the Internet for good and for bad. When I was growing up, newspapers had news on the front and nose sections of newspapers and opinions in the opinion section. And what I think has changed dramatically is the idea of balanced, well edited news. And I think that what the internet has done is that it has reinforced views that any individual may have, without exposing them to the idea of three, hard news that has reporting on both-both sides of an issue. And so, my message, my-my message to young people would be, quit your own political and social views in a box while you are working. And try and see both sides of whatever story you are covering, and try and report on the fact. And I know how hard that is to do. SM: 24:28 You got to Vietnam. Can you explain that? That time when you found out that you were going to be assigned there? And I know that you talked about that you are going you always dreamed of being a foreign correspondent, but then you ended up becoming a war correspondent. Could you talk about that? Just that very beginning phase, and those very first days in Vietnam, your first impressions of the country? EL: 24:55 Well, I was shocked, as I said, too when I got this call from West Gallagher and Penn, I did ask him whether I was going to New York to work on the foreign desk and he said, no, I was going to, I would go to Vietnam without working on the foreign desk, because do not forget Ben Bassett, the foreign editor anyway, I said that I had to talk to my parents, but I of course, knew that I was going to go. And I, I had actually been to Vietnam. In 1971, I had gone around the world with one of my [inaudible] Francisco roommate, who was a teacher. And we got on one of those panim around, we got pan ham around the world tickets. I had saved up a lot of AP vacation. And we had most been to Europe, but we never been to Asia. So we went to Tokyo, Singapore, Hong Kong, and-and you can stop anywhere that Pan-am 101 stopped as long as you are going in the same direction. And it has stopped in Saigon. And so, we decided to go to see the war that while certainly was on the front pages every day and that I had been writing about certainly on the protest side. And so, I going back to Saigon was not a shock to me. And on that first trip in 1971, we were you know, we, we were sort of taken under the wing of the AP office because I was working for the AP in San Francisco. And I actually found out in at the end of the first Gulf War that the AP bureau chief in Saigon at the time, Richard Pyle had wanted to have a woman in the AP bureau. And after he met me on that trip, he asked was Gallagher to send me to Vietnam, but I did not find that out until over 20 years later. So, I-I-I showed up but of course, very different going as a tourist and you know, than getting on a plane and going to Bangkok and then and then going as a war correspondent, and I-I was very young and ambitious. And I wanted to prove that a woman could do that job. And Gallagher had told everybody want me to go out in the field. Well, actually, the big stories that the time that I was there were-were not really it was sort of the end of the combat phase although I, [inaudible] were that was the major story. Because I was there before, during and after the pullout of the last American combat troops- SM: 29:46 Right. EL: 29:47 That is not saying that the war did not go on because it was going on and I covered some of it. But the big story was what was, what-what was going to happen and we all know that two years later on April 30, 1975, basically, the North Vietnamese and Viet Cong marched into Saigon and that was the end of the war and North Vietnam and South Vietnam became one Vietnam under a communist government. SM: 30:32 Yeah. Can you describe you do really good in the interview, in the book, War Torn about your perceptions of walking down the street and or going out in an assignment into the countryside? What it was like to be in Vietnam, looking at the faces of the people that lived there the country itself? Could you kind of describe that? EL: 30:57 Um, I have to say that the, you know, the AP Bureau was in an aging French colonial edifice called the Eden Building. And when you walked outside, you would see immediately the impact of the war on the Vietnamese people. There were Vietnamese of all ages, who had been crippled in various ways, sitting on the pavement trying to sell things. There were lots of military activity in in the streets. And there was a whole war culture of limb, limb for today. Because you do not know whether you are going to be around tomorrow. SM: 32:43 Did you fear your life? EL: 32:48 I-I am a fatalist. And I have in in Vietnam, starting in Vietnam, and then then all the other wars and conflict that I covered. Have I have been frightened sometimes. Certainly. Have I been worried that I might be cold? Certainly. But it is not something that was always in the front of my mind. It was certainly in the front of my mind in Afghanistan when whenever pro Soviet supporter was holding a pistol to my temple. Yes. SM: 33:50 Wow. If you talked, you mentioned the big story in Vietnam was a big story. EL: 33:56 It was a huge story. SM: 33:58 It is how you describe it in the inner- in war torn it because I want to bring up that word responsibility as a journalist because you link it-it is important to tell history the way it really is. Could you talk about that? Because that is really important. When you talk about reporting. I want to be honest, and truthful. And I have a responsibility because it is linked to history. Could you talk about that? EL: 34:26 Well, there was always every-every day in Vietnam, the US military did, Matt V did a briefing called which was nicknamed the five o'clock Follies. And it was called The Five o'clock follies because of the view that the lack of reality on what was being present into two journalists. And what was really happening out in the field. And the great thing about the Vietnam War was that there were almost no restrictions on where members of the media could go. If you went down to one of the air bases, and there was helicopters going off to some combat zone, and there was empty seat, you were a journalist, you could get off or a photographer or a TV camera. You know, and, and so my AP colleagues, and I could actually go and see for ourselves what was really happening. We did not have to take the US military's often skewed view of what was happening. And, you know, the media in some animals was blamed for the US losses of the Vietnam War. But frankly, it was the media that told the truth about what was happening. SM: 36:53 There was no censorship then. EL: 36:56 There was no censorship. And as someone who covered the first Gulf War, which was the first major US military involvement, post, Vietnam, the situation changed dramatically, dramatically. So maybe it could never go anywhere on its own and there will always minders. I still remember doing an interview with a general at that, during, in the run up to the war. And think about this, I am facing him asking questions. And behind me, was sitting, his PR guy shaking his head, yes or no on whether the general should answer the question. SM: 38:16 Man, either it is just a lie in your book against again, describing the scene in Vietnam with some of the people live there. I think it is, I just want to record it for record. The end, this is your words. "During my six years as a reporter, I had covered murders and seen plenty of dead people are dead bodies, but coming face to face with Vietnamese kids and adults in the prime of their life, who would be forever scarred by war, far, far harder on the emotions." So that is a beautiful quote. And it is that it is really about humanity and caring about humanity. So, it is almost the sense that you go to a foreign war area there you see kids, whether it be in Afghanistan, or Vietnam, or anywhere, these kids and children, and they deserve a legacy like all of us do. So that very well said. You also covered that period of time during the Paris Peace Talks, whether you are taking place with Kissinger going to Paris, and- EL: 39:23 Right. SM: 39:24 Could you talk about that? You know, I think it was on and off and on and off. You give really a description of that too. And then finally, when it did happen, and then people started leaving Vietnam, talking about that, too. EL: 39:37 Sure. You know, let me let me go back for a second to the victims of war. I- One of the things that always struck me was that every American soldier’s death was written about and honored. And rightly so. But the same was not the case with the deaths of Vietnamese soldiers and civilians. And I had wanted to write a story about the impact of the war on Vietnamese families. And in order to, to get a green light to write it, I-I had to find a family that where the mother has lost, I cannot remember, but it was like four or five sons, she had one son left. She lived in basically what would be a shack with the roof that went over the walls of the two shacks next to hers. And, you know, her, her life had been turned totally upside down. And she was only hoping that her last some that have come she had not heard from, we were still alive. These-these are the real stories about the impact of war. The peace talks that were going on in Paris, were of course, incredibly closely watched in Vietnam. And there was all sorts of betting of what was going to happen. And there, there was, yes, there was an agreement finally reached. What, you know, first, the Paris Peace Talks collapsed in mid-December. And the US. This was 1972, when the US then launched this huge Christmas bombing campaign against Hanoi and North Vietnam. And when that ended, the peace talks resumed. And then the bearing on a ceasefire also resumed. And it was the ceasefire was finally agreed on, I do not know, late January 1973. And the question was, what would happen next? And that was we knew that the Americans were going to leave. And I think one of the most one of the stories I wrote that I know God, the best play was writing about the impact of the war on the bar girls. SM: 44:33 Yes. EL: 44:38 You know, they-they were the girlfriends of thousands of American GI. And I went and did this story going to a whole bunch of bars and-and that was so interesting, because I had expected them to be really angry. But you know, they were really quiet [inaudible]. But I, I wondered, even then how these young women, many of whom had children who were half American, would not survive. And I know for a fact that a lot of them had a very, very tough time, because in 2000, which was the 25th anniversary of the end of the war, the AP did a whole package. And I went back and interviewed. I did a story on the impact of the war on women in the north in the south, and I actually did get to talk to-to really interview one former bar girls, and find out what happened to quite a number of them. But the, you know, once, once this, this peace agreement was signed, there were all sorts of political and diplomatic games that were not going on. And there was a four-party commission that was coming into Saigon, I was covering a lot of that. And it was fascinating. And I also got to cover the arrival of the first American prisoners of war who had been held by the Vietcong in South Vietnam. And- SM: 47:31 You [inaudible]. EL: 47:32 That was incredibly moving. SM: 47:35 Could you describe that because I think there is two scenes in your in the book, when you talk about you the first time you saw the POWs and then [inaudible] time, and then there was the other time where the very last POW they got I think you also witnessed that. EL: 47:49 Okay. Right-right-right. Well, there we-we had waited four hours for, for this prisoner release. And then all of a sudden, there were six helicopters circling overhead. And, you know, I kept trying to imagine what those guys were thinking. You know, they, they had been picked up in a jungle clearing and they were about to take their first steps on friendly soil in years. Some of them had been prisoners for eight years. And it was very emotional. When the helicopter landed, the some of them were peering through the windows waving at us while others were not. And the first prisoner off was a young blond man on a stretcher, who was given a big chair. And when he heard that noise, he sat up and actually waved his good hand. And then his both his hands and he broke into a smile. But then, you know, all the rest of the prisoners got off some of them were emaciated. They all looked haggard. And they walked across the tarmac [inaudible] to a US military hospital plane. And the other thing that was sort of horrifying in retrospect was they each had a big-name tag hung around their neck. You know, it was, it sorts of reminded me as if, you know, they were packages going to be delivered. Not people who have suffered so much. And many of them were carrying white plastic bags, which, I guess, contained, the only belongings that they were taking from captivity? SM: 51:05 Yep. One of the another quote from you is a quote from I think it is General Wyant. And this is your quote, "General Wyant said the United States accomplished purpose. But to me, the North Vietnamese and its Vietcong soldiers were the winners, seeing off their defeated enemies." And then I go to this next thing, and you might not have been in Vietnam, but in this time in 1975, when the helicopters on the Embassy in Saigon, and coming back and forth and taking everybody away, and all the people wanting to go and leave the leave of Vietnam. EL: 51:54 Right. SM: 51:54 But what, you know, the peace agreement, peace agreement in 1973. And then you see, we are getting the heck out of there real fast, and people are struggling to survive. You know, what to get out of there? What are your What are your thoughts with the helicopter? EL: 52:14 Well, I think that after the peace agreement, you may not remember this, but President Johnson, President Johnson was in office and as I recall, Congress refused to fund anything in Vietnam anymore. So, all of the fighting was turned over to the South Vietnamese. SM: 52:50 Right. EL: 52:51 There was an American, you know, small military advisory group there. And, and that was the beginning of the end of the wars. So, the fact that the South fell, was not shocking how fast that happened was surprising to me. But then, you know, look at what happened in Afghanistan last year. SM: 53:30 Mm-Hmm. Yep. [crosstalk] When? When you go to the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, in fact, this year is the 40th anniversary of the opening of the wall. And on November 11, of 1982. I will be down there reading 15 names, like probably hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of other people are going to be but your thoughts? First, I would like your thoughts the first time you visited it. And then what do you think every time you go there? I do not what do you see on that wall when you go there? EL: 54:08 Um, I am glad that all of those almost all men thousands and thousands, who died are memorialized. And I think to myself, as I did from the beginning of my tried in Vietnam and they need to die in that war. What was the end United States fighting for? I remember growing up when there was this whole idea of dominoes in Southeast Asia, countries that were going to collapse one by one. And I think that that underlying concern, perhaps is not written about often enough, but I still ask myself, and because there are people, I know on that wall also. And also starting in 1995, my AP colleague, Horst Faas, who has won the Pulitzer in the photography in Vietnam, and I started doing reunions for the journalists who covered the war. And another one of our colleagues did help started doing it also. And we did the 20th, the 25th 30th 35th 40th 45th. SM: 56:36 Wow. EL: 56:36 We did not do the 45th, because it was the middle of COVID. That was 2020. But we are planning to do a 50th years for sure. SM: 56:52 That is very important. I want you-you have read reference to how difficult it was for you as a woman to finally get to a position where you were a foreign correspondent or a war correspondent, as a female. You know, I find it interesting that it took a while for the women's memorial at the in Washington to also be built. And we know the story of Diane Carlson Evans and the battles she had to go through in Congress just even, I have seen some of her interviews and so forth. And so, it took a while for that to happen. And I know there was always some opinions of eve that why is a woman always on the stage at the Vietnam Memorial on Memorial Day or Veterans Day. No one ever told me it. But I heard some veterans tell me some behind the scenes stories. I do not know if they are true. But I think there is a perception there. It took a while for women to be recognized too at the Vietnam Memorial. And- EL: 57:46 Oh, yeah. SM: 57:47 And if you study the whole history of the civil rights movement, and the talk about the anti-war movement, women were in secondary roles. And part of the reason why the feminist movement became so major and important is because many of them left on their own to create it be a part of a leadership role in these movements. Why is it taken so- I think a lot of people have answered this, but I am still questioning why has it taken so long for women like you, I mean, you have already proven you are a great writer, to get into leadership roles that you should have been 50 and 100 years ago. EL: 58:21 Well, do not forget that after Vietnam. I did not become a piece first female bureau chief overseas. I was bureau chief for Peru, Ecuador and Bolivia. And then that is a very long story. But I was kicked out of Peru for a story that I wrote, which was true. But I then was AP's bureau chief in the Caribbean, and I had, you know, more than a dozen countries. But I realized that that job I spent more than half my time collecting bad debts from Puerto Rican radio subscribers. And I really wanted to write so it was my decision to go back to writing and reporting. I probably could have risen to be, you know, a more senior editor at AP but I still I still loved writing and reporting. SM: 59:55 I know you went off to Cambodia to and we all know what happened there with a killing fields and Pol Pot. And you saw that you saw the beginning of that. And of course, the killings at Kent State in 1970 are directly related to Richard Nixon going into Cambodia on the 30th of April of 1970. That is what erected the campuses all over the country and so forth. But we had been there for a long time. EL: 1:00:23 Absolutely. SM: 1:00:25 I just-just some general questions here. What are the lessons learned from the war? And what are the lessons lost from the war? EL: 1:00:36 Well, that is a very long and difficult question. Certainly. Certainly, one of the things, learned from, I think, from Vietnam was to make, to hopefully to, you know, make sure that Americans know what, what they are fighting for in these countries. And certainly, I think that that was an issue in Vietnam. Maybe, maybe I am wrong, and I do not remember so well, but I think that that was an issue. And in terms, one of the bad things that came out of it was the blaming the media and the repression of the media in covering future actions where the US military was involved. And that is, that is pretty, that is pretty horrifying. And, and that goes on until today. And I can only say, that was one of the things that war correspondents of my generation, they were not war correspondents in foreign correspondents of my generation, say is that we have lived through the golden age of covering, big stories, including mores and conflict. And the reason we say that is that we had more time, more freedom. Because communications were not instantaneous. No cell phones, no satellite phones. And, and we-we were trusted more by our editors. Yes, if we did things that they did not like, we heard about it, but it was not like having somebody pick up a phone every 10 minutes. And say, where is this? When is this coming? And that puts a lot of pressure on, on journalists, photographers. Is anybody in the media today to speed things up and not be as careful as they should or could be. SM: 1:04:41 Alright, I think two more questions, and then we will be done. EL: 1:04:47 I hope they are short because it is 2:56 that I have to go cover this [inaudible] SM: 1:04:52 That is okay. Yep. But would you consider Vietnam the watershed event of the (19)60s even though we know civil rights was also would you consider Vietnam, the watershed event. EL: 1:05:04 So, I would certainly consider it one of the (19)60s. SM: 1:05:09 Yes. (19)60s and early (19)70s? EL: 1:05:11 Probably, yes. Yes. Because of the global impact, although I understand why you saying the civil rights movement, and but that that kept going for- that is kept going for decades. It still, it is still an unfinished piece of business. SM: 1:05:41 Have we healed? Has the nation healed from this war? Your thoughts? No- EL: 1:05:52 I do not. I do not think anybody under 50 pays much attention to Vietnam at all now. I mean, the saddest thing to me is finding Vietnam veterans out begging on street corners- SM: 1:06:15 Right. EL: 1:06:17 -in New York. And I, you know, if I see one, and they are really suffering, you know, give them some money. But it is, it is not, it is not right. And I think a lot of them feel forgotten. That, you know, the world has gone on to so many other issues, and so many other concerns and conflicts. And that is what I can say. SM: 1:06:54 And then, any words of advice, they asked us to everybody want to end the interview? What words of advice would you give to people, young people, older people, 50 years from now that are listening to your interviewer? What words of advice would you give them? EL: 1:07:12 My advice would be, first and foremost, be honest with yourself. And try to be as honest and balanced in whatever work you choose to do. And to young people, I would say, try and live your dream when you are young. And if you do not succeed, hopefully, it will put you on the path that will lead you to something that will end in a happy life for you. SM: 1:07:55 Edith Lederer thank you very much for this interview, and, and also for being in the book, which I encourage everyone to read War Torn: Stories of War from the Women Reporters Who Covered Vietnam. And of course, the introduction just from Gloria Emerson, the late Gloria Emerson who wrote the great book, Winners and Losers. Edith, thank you very much. EL: 1:08:18 You are welcome. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Edith Lederer https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fb73de6633a9963320ac3615bed66213.jpeg 3b9f7684f0aa08c85ee33747fbb05dd6 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/97d2036245cef32521bc2276bfca6d02.mp3 ab112ae52c0af1fd7167dabd3f68e0ba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-10-27 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Don Lattin Biographical Text Don Lattin is a journalist, educator, consultant, and award-winning author. Lattin published six books, including The Harvard Psychedelic Club and Changing Our Minds: Psychedelic Sacraments and the New Psychotherapy. His work has appeared in many magazines and newspapers, including the San Francisco Chronicle where he worked as a staff writer. Lattin has been a commentator for numerous television news shows, including Dateline NBC, PrimeTime Live, Good Morning America, Nightline, and Anderson Cooper 360. He specializes in religion, spirituality, and psychology. Lattin also taught as an adjunct faculty member at the Graduate School of Journalism at the University of California at Berkeley where he earned a Bachelor's degree in Sociology. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:27:05 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Psychedelic; Harvard; Book; Drugs; LSD; 60s;&nbsp; Psychedelic experience; Psilocybin; Berkeley University; Counterculture; Talk. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Don Lattin Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 27 October 2022 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) DL: 00:00 Six books and they all have something to do with (19)60s, you know, I am kind of fascinated by that era, too. SM: 00:07 Yeah, well, you just wrote one heck of a book. I-I just love it. DL: 00:12 Thank you. That is the one, that is the one that did, did well in terms of sales and all that. SM: 00:18 Well, what, I think I am going to start out the interview. I am interviewing Don Lattin who was the author of, "The Harvard Psychedelic Club." It is how Timothy Leary, Rahm Das, Houston Smith, and Andrew wild killed the (19)50s and ushered in a new age for America. And this is, I am really excited about doing this interview today. Don, I would like you to first start off with a ton about your background. Please describe your early years. Your growing up, where you grew up, your parents' background, your schooling, from high school and college before you became a writer. DL: 00:51 Okay, well, I was born in Suffern, New York, a little town just across the New Jersey border, northern New Jersey border, in the fall of 1953. So, that actually demographically speaking, [chuckles] Steven puts me Smack dab in the middle of the baby boom generation. And, my father was a, kind of a frustrated actor who had to get a job as a salesman to support his family working for Lipton tea, at Thomas J. Lipton Incorporated, and another was your typical (19)60s, (19)50s-(19)60s housewife. My mother was Jewish, and my father was kind of a lukewarm Presbyterian. So, I was, I was raised in the Presbyterian and United Church of Christ, kind of very lukewarm, kind of Protestant upbringing. When I was 12, my father said, "Do you want to keep going to church?" I said, "No," and he said, "Good, and then we do not have to take you anymore." [laughter] So, that was my, that was my religious upbringing. SM: 02:04 Oh wow. DL: 02:05 It was not very serious, but yeah, it was the 1950s and the early (19)60s, when you know, if you did not go to church, you were suspected of being a communist or something. So, but that was my religious upbringing, such as it was. So, I kind of bounced across the country as a child. I lived only for my first three years in New Jersey. And then we moved to Ohio. And I was there for about three or four years. Then we moved to Colorado, outside of Denver, I was there for about four more years, and then we moved to Southern California. I was in junior high school, and spent the rest of my time at home living in Southern California. And, so I went to public school, and I mean, my parents, it was not a particularly happy marriage, I actually write about it quite a bit in one of my other books called, "Distilled Spirits," which is a group biography with three other guys and kind of a recovery memoir. And I write about, you know, my upbringing quite a bit in that book. But it was not a happy marriage for various reasons. I had a brother who died in a tragic accident before I was born, I was what they call a "bereavement baby," I was born 10 months later to replace him. And my, it was a default of the car, my mother was driving, my brother, whose name was Alan and died. And my father basically never forgave my mother for this accident. And, the marriage kind of did not survive that. They stayed together till I was 12, but then they got divorced. So that was, you know, major, major kind of trauma in my childhood, you know, a lot of arguing with my family, and then the divorce was very bitter and left me, you know, feeling kind of alienated and not too much of a believer in the traditional family values [laughs] of America, questioning a lot of that. So, that was that and you know, I started experimenting with drugs and alcohol at a fairly young age, you know, probably around 12. Kind of around the time of my parents’ divorce, I am not sure how much that had to do with it, you know, probably contributed to it a bit. I got in some trouble in high school, marijuana and other drugs. And, but I, you know, always did fairly well in school. I was pretty good student. And I got accepted to go to UC Berkeley, in the fall of 1972. So, I moved up from Southern California, to Berkeley, basically, technically, the day after high school graduation and kind of never looked back, you know, I kind of wanted to get away from what was left of my family. And, and spent four years at Berkeley except for one year I studied abroad in England. So, I went to school at the University of Birmingham, in England, for my junior year, and kind of bummed around Europe, went down to Morocco, you know, kind of, did not do, did not do a lot of studying that year, [laughter] mostly just bombing around Europe. But somehow, I managed to get an undergraduate degree in sociology at UC Berkeley in (19)76. I say my real education was really working at the "Daily Californian," the off-campus student newspaper, which actually had just gone off campus, because of the anniversary of the People's Park riots in Berkeley. The editors at the Daily Cal said, "Let usretake the park," and there was a riot and one guy was killed. And, the university tried to fire the editors of the newspaper. And, they did not, because of the year before I was there, but we, they, they did not agree. And they kind of marched off campus and kept publishing the paper. But, we were basically separate from the university and worked out an agreement with the University. So, it was a really interesting time to be a journalist, then, you know, and it was not your typical college newspaper, because we were, you know, had to survive, you know, financially on our own. And we were also sort of became the paper for the city of Berkeley covering, you know, Berkeley news, what was going on politically, in terms of local politics in Berkeley, then, that was really interesting. And so, I did a lot of writing about, you know, the new left, and politics, and, and drugs, and covered various things like rent control, you know, lobbying campaigns, Berkeley marijuana initiative. Berkeley was the first city to decriminalize marijuana, and I wrote a lot about that. And, and also do a lot of experimentation with psychedelic drugs, which I read about a bit at the end of Harvard Psychedelic Club. [crosstalk] Did you have any interaction with anybody from the free speech movement? That was, what, way before your time in (19)64-(19)65? But, they used to have a lot of remembrances going back to the. Yeah, well, that was, that was, that was in the air. But yeah, that was (19)64. So, you know, that was like, you know, eight years earlier, right. And it is almost like, seemed like another era in some, some ways, you know. I mean, by the time I got to the Bay Area in (19)72, you know, I sort of always wished that I could have been there about, you know, six or seven years earlier, right. [chuckles] In the, the mid (19)60s, and kind of a more hopeful, idealistic era of what we call the (19)60s, you know. SM: 07:58 Did you ever- DL: 07:59 (19)70, by (19)72, you know, there was a much harder edge to the whole scene, you were there, you remember. SM: 08:04 Yep. Yep-yep. DL: 08:04 The drugs were different and it was just a different feeling. I mean, I think a lot of the hope, and the idealism was already gone. You know, and I was always, I fell in with an older group of people, friends, like I was, you know, so I was what I was looking at, in early 20, early 20s. And I fell in with a group of people who were about 15 years older than me, became my best friends for life. You know, and they had, they were mostly people who had come to San Francisco, you know, when you, some, during the beatnik era, the end of the beatnik era and the beginning of the hippie era, like the early 1960s. And they became, became my kind of tribe and my friends, and I was kind of a kid, right. I was, like, 15 years younger. And, and I was, I was kind of trying to keep the party, you know, a lot. [laughter] And they were, they were starting to get older, you know, settle down and have kids and all that. SM: 08:12 I think that (19)72 here was also the period, I think the Angela Davis trial was happening around that time. DL: 09:06 Yeah, that was going on. [crosstalk] The Vietnam War was, was winding down, right. So, the anti, there was a little, it was the tail end of the anti-war movement. There was a lot of, the Angela Davis, the whole, you know, ethnic studies was a big issue, you know, the various liberation movements, you know, African American, we used to say Chicano, you know, though, and, of course, the sexual revolution, and, you know, the gay rights thing was just kind of getting going. So, there were a lot of, you know, liberation movements going on. I mean, on terms of that the campus like one of the big issues then, were there was this debate over the criminology school which had a, kind of, several Marxist professors and they were challenging the whole, some of the ideas. They were, they were not training, you know, law enforcement officers. They were critiquing, you know, law enforcement in America. So there- SM: 10:03 Right. DL: 10:03 -were a lot of big controversies around the criminology school and cracking down on some of the leftist teachers there. So that was, that was a big issue in ethnic studies, that sort of thing. SM: 10:16 Chris Reagan was governor, I believe at that time. DL: 10:18 Reagan was governor. Yeah, you know, there was still, you know, there was still some protests, I did get tear gassed once, you know, [laughs] demonstration. So, that was still going on. But it was nothing like earlier in the, in the late (19)60s, then it kind of, then it kind of died down a bit. SM: 10:23 Did you ever, and we were going to get back into the Harvard Psychedelic Club, did you ever do articles on the Black Panthers? Because they were becoming very big at that time. DL: 10:45 Yeah, they definitely were. That was all going on in Oakland, you know, right next to Berkeley. No, I did not really write too much about the, the Panthers. There are a lot of stories about, remember the Bakke decision? SM: 11:01 Oh, yeah, that was big. DL: 11:02 The controversies about affirmative action. SM: 11:04 Oh, yes. DL: 11:05 That was a, that was a big, that was a big issue. I was also the editorial page editor at, "The Daily Cowl." So, I was involved in editorials around a lot of those, those issues. SM: 11:16 Wow. Okay. Before, I am going to talk about, before we talk about the actual book, was the afterword in the book. It, where you asked yourself, "Why am I writing a book about four people- DL: 11:32 Right. SM: 11:33 -who are involved in drugs? And you talk about on a few pages, your experience, when you were a freshman going to Big Sur? Could you talk about that? DL: 11:43 Sure, sure. Yeah. So, you know, I think I first experimented with LSD in high school, I did it, I do not know, three or four times. I never had, you know, kind of a full-blown mystical experience. Maybe it was something to do with the dose, or the set, or the setting, you know, which is always important. So, I, but when I got to Berkeley, and I actually came in the summer of (19)72. And I had, it was really my first girlfriend in college, her name, Julia, and we had just met, and we both lived in this, the high-rise dorms on the south side of campus. And we ran this experimental program called Hearts Technology and Society, which was, it was kind of the height of that whole, like, a University Without Walls, you know, alternative education movement. Right. SM: 12:41 Right. DL: 12:42 And the idea was that, you, it was for freshmen, and you would live in a dorm with your instructors who were mostly, you know, graduate students and teaching assistants. And, basically, study arts and we had like, video cameras were a new thing. We had some video cameras, we were playing around with those, music and, you know, critiquing society, and it was a very open-ended program, where there were no grades, and there was no kind of, you hung out with your instructors. And in some ways that, also it was kind of a big party. There was a lot of drug taking going on. And then, we lasted one-year university kind of got what was going on and canceled the program. [laughter] Everybody got, everybody, it was like, everybody got A's, which made them suspicious. SM: 13:36 Oh yeah. [laughter] DL: 13:36 So, the university, they could not take the credit away, but they wound up making it so you could not apply the credit to hardly anything, right. So, it was like a whole, basically a whole year of college where it was great for my grade point average, but I could not really apply it much, much to a major. But, so that was, that was kind of environment. You know, it was alternative education. It was like questioning everything, you know, and, and so my girlfriend and I went down. So, this was sometime before Thanksgiving. So, it was fairly early in the school year, we had some blotter, acid, some LSD which we took down to Big Sir, drove down in my 1965 Mustang. And we, we were, you know, camped on a bluff overlooking the Big Sir coast. It is fantastic stretches of coastline, you know, south of Monterey. And anyway, we just had this amazing experience where we kind of melted together and became like one being, and kind of read each other's minds and started out you know, just feeling totally out of love with nature and the environment around us. And it was, you know, it was really turned into what I would call a, full blown mystical experience where, you know, just like white light and coming together as one thing, and it was just the most amazing experience I have ever had. I mean, I just, it just blew me away with this question. My whole idea of what, what, what is reality? What is consciousness? What is what is, what is, what is, what, where, where does my body stop and the rest of the world start? All those, all those boundaries are just kind of blown away. And it was just a beautiful, beautiful experience. And, you know, in my naive, you know, 18-19-year-old mind, I thought, "Well, that is it that this is true love, I found my soulmate, you know, we will be together for the rest of our lives. This is what it means to become in one with someone," and, and we had that experience and went back to school. And then for, for a week or two after that, or actually for about a month, month after that every time we touched. Yeah, we do, do the acid, we were not trippy anymore. But, every time we touched, we physically melt together. It is this amazing thing. It just continued. So, you know, I, I thought that was it. You know, this, she's my soulmate. And I do not know a month or two after that we had another, another trip. In the woods, kind of a dark woods up in northern California. Turned out it was a, with another couple, it turns out it was a hunting lodge, [laughs] where we were actually staying at. So, we were out in the woods, and there were gunshots going off. SM: 16:40 [laughs] DL: 16:40 And they were kind of a lot of rednecks around and they set the setting. It was very important for an LSD trip. But this was like the worst setting- -you can imagine. And so, there was a lot of paranoia and fear. And I basically had another, I had a bad trip from central casting, you know, where I got paranoid, I felt very Small, I felt very alienated. I felt very scared, terrified that I was sort of disappearing or dying. It was very, very difficult, trip. And really, we were at this lodge where the boys and the men and women had to sleep in separate areas. So, I was not sleeping, was not with my girlfriend, hearing voices all night. And just, then after that, the next day, we kind of got an argument, and we roundup splitting up. So, and in some ways, I never completely came down from that trip for a couple of weeks, I would have what we used to call flashbacks. Which I used to think we were just anti-drug propaganda because there was so much ridiculous, you know, anti-drug propaganda, you know, during that era. But this case, flashbacks, they, they can happen, and they do happen with people. So, for a few weeks, maybe even a month or two, I cannot remember exactly after that. I would have these flashbacks, which were very terrifying because I, did not really know what was real. I mean, I, I stopped driving because I was not sure if lights were red or green. And I had a very difficult period, I could not read, I could not concentrate at all. SM: 16:48 [laughs] Wow. DL: 18:19 You know, it was first year student at Cal, it was not, as I said, it was not a rigorous academic program that I was in [laughter]. But I still had to do some reading, right? SM: 18:26 Right. DL: 18:28 I mean, you know, one sentence, I just, I would hit a word and I would go off on a tangent, I had no-no ability to concentrate. And you know, and looking back on it, it was you know, I mean, you would probably call it a psychotic break, right. And if I would have, probably if I would have, and but I was very scared about telling anybody what was going on because I was afraid, I would be you know, locked up in a mental hospital or something and back then that is probably what would have happened. So, I kept it to myself for the most part and struggled with it. And it was a really difficult period, came out of it in a few months. And I think that came out in the long run kind of saner than I went in. I see the other side, right, of sanity, but it was a really difficult period. So, so I mentioned, and I write about it because those two experiences left, left me both, you know, fascinated and, very frightened about the power and the potential of psychedelics. And I, you know, and so for a long time I, not for a long time but for a few, for at least six months or so I did not do any drugs, no marijuana, no alcohol, nothing. Eventually got back into psychedelics, but so yeah, and I looking back on that I used to see it as kind of a good trip and a bad trip. But I actually kind of see it now is kind of one thing, kind of a, growth process, or a process of individuation. You know, I see the whole thing kind of as one event now rather than a good trip and a bad trip. SM: 20:01 That is a, that is a good way, that is a good way to get into talking about the Harvard Psychedelic Club. Could you, what was the Harvard Psychedelic Club? And of course, it is, it is really about four people. And if you could- DL: 20:16 Yeah, well, yeah. SM: 20:18 -you go ahead and [crosstalk] say who those people were? DL: 20:21 Yeah, okay. Well, the Harvard Psychedelic Club, was, there was, there was nothing actually called the Harvard Psychedelic Club. That is just a, a title for my book. And kind of my, my shorthand way of describing it. What I was writing about was something, it was called the Harvard Psilocybin Project. And later, the Harvard Psychedelic Project, which was a, some early research into looking for potential uses, and just understanding the psychedelic experience, with either psilocybin, which was synthesized psilocybin, the active ingredient in magic mushrooms, and then later LSD. And so, the Harvard Psychedelic Club, is a book about four individuals who crossed paths at Harvard in the fall of 1960, which was a really interesting and kind of pivotal time, both at Harvard and in the country. And the, John F. Kennedy, who had been a Harvard man who had just been elected President of the United States, and much, much, much of the hope and the optimism of the (19)60s was kind of personified in Kennedy, and [inaudible] running for president, and then winning over Richard Nixon, in 1960. So that was kind of a backdrop. Anyway, the four individuals in the book are Timothy Larry, who was a lecturer in clinical psychology at Berkeley, one of his colleagues, Richard Alpert, who was an assistant professor in social psychology, clinical psychology in Harvard. And the, the third person in the book is Houston Smith, who was already a renowned scholar of world religions. He already had a show on the early public television network, before PBS, but early public television network about the world's religions, Houston Smith, he was not actually at Harvard, he was teaching, nearby MIT, but it was very close to the Harvard Cooke group. And then the fourth character in that book is Andrew Weil, who was a bit younger, all four of these guys are kind of pre-baby boom themselves. But Weil, Weil was a, was a, was a bit younger, he was a freshman, brilliant, very ambitious freshman at Harvard. So, the book looks at, it is, the book is a group biography of these four guys, how they crossed paths at Harvard, and kind of, what happened with this grand experiment in psychedelic research at Harvard. And in 1960, which resulted in Larry and Alpert being kicked out of the university and going on to become kind of the pied pipers of the psychedelic counterculture in the mid-1960s. [crosstalk] Go ahead. SM: 23:20 These four are so historic in so many ways, and it is almost like the perfect storm, you know, the, how they all ended up together in some way over that period between (19)60 and (19)63. And, and you do a really good job of giving us a little brief description of each of their backgrounds prior to Harvard. Could you talk a little bit about Leary and Alpert and Smith and while, it, before they get to Harvard, because I think it is important that you get a feel for who they are even before they get there. DL: 23:55 Yeah-yeah. Well, I mean, Leary, you know, who became a very divisive figure, you know, Richard Nixon called the most, he would later call him, in the decade, would call him the most dangerous man in America and helped fuel a backlash against, certainly against psychedelics, or specifically against psychedelic research in university settings. But anyway, before. So, Leary was already, he was a rising star in clinical psychology. He had written a, in the 1950s, he had written a book about, he was an expert in personality assessment. And, he had written a very well received, kind of award-winning book, which stayed in print for many-many, many years longer than later books about psychedelics. So, he was, you know, he was kind of a rising star in psychology in the post war era. But even before he first experienced psychedelics, which was on a halt on a vacation in Mexico, in the summer of 1960, when he first took magic mushrooms. But even before that he was questioning, you know, the conventional wisdom in psychology and psychiatry, he did not think talk therapy was really effective. He was doing a fairly radical critique of the power dynamics between, you know, like patient and doctor, and researcher and research subject in like a, psychological testing. So, he was, he was kind of radical in some ways and kind of questioning authority even before he had his psychedelic trip, which totally transformed him and convinced him that psychedelics were going to not only change psychology, but change the world. So that was kind of his background. And Alpert, Richard Alpert grew up in a fairly wealthy Jewish family in Boston. [inaudible] was, helped found Brandeis University. And, so, kind of a railroad executive, lawyer, very pretty, rough, really successful guy. And so, Alpert grew up in this family, he was very bright, very charismatic, young, ambitious. Kind of on the fast track, kind of on tenure track at-at Harvard, much more, you know, identified with the Harvard CNN delivery ever was, where he was just actually on a three-year kind of temporary contract with Harvard. But Alpert was, was on tenure track. And very brilliant-brilliant authority. He was very charismatic, great lecturer, he is very popular with the students. And he was, he was also struggling with his sexuality. He was basically a gay man in the closet you know, and struggling with that, some of that would have something to do with how he got in trouble later on at Harvard. S, that was basically Alpert's background. Houston Smith, you know, was a child of Methodist missionaries, he was born and grew up in, in China. And, so was exposed, you know, grew up, you know, in a hoarder culture, and climate, and came to the States, thinking he would be in a training, become a minister, which he did, he was a, became ordained Methodist minister, but he was more interested in teaching than in preaching, and really became one of the early authority on world religions. And, he wrote a book called, "The Religions Of," was originally called, "The Religions of Man," and later called "The World's Religions," which for many years, maybe still is used as a textbook, you know, in comparative religion. And, but he has never really had a mystical experience himself. And he had been reading about psychedelics and he would read, you know, of course, Aldous Huxley wrote a book published in 1554, about the doors of perception. And so, Houston actually had sought out Aldous Huxley and became friends with Aldous Huxley, and had something to do with Huxley coming to MIT to deliver some guest lectures at this very same time, right- SM: 23:58 Wow. DL: 24:36 -in the fall of 1960. So, that was the other sort of piece of the puzzle. I mean, Aldous Huxley, who at the time, you know, was probably one of the best known, you know, writers in English language, right, and public intellectual and towards the end of his career. So, Huxley was kind of part of the mix. And this, this was at Harvard, and MIT too. And, and Andy Weil was, you know, he was just a very-very, very bright, ambitious freshman who was interested in, he grew up in. Well, you know, it has been like 12 or 13-14 years since I did, reporting on this book. I cannot remember anything, but I think he grew up in Philadelphia. SM: 29:16 Yep, he did. Yep. DL: 29:17 Yeah. Yeah. What is on the top of my head right now? [laughs] But yeah, he grew up in Philadelphia, I think his parents ran a millinery shop. He, just a really bright, young bright kid, and was interested in-in psychedelic research and tried to get involved with the, the Harvard Psilocybin Project and we can talk about that if you want but that is kind of, that story in the book. [crosstalk] And, and went on to go to medical school and become a real leader in the holistic health and integrative- SM: 29:50 Right. DL: 29:50 -medicine scene. But, but so yeah, he was, he was, I do not know like 10-15 years younger than these guys. SM: 29:59 Can you discuss what happened in that period, (19)60s, (19)63? I know that, Alpert and Leary had a home off campus. And, that is where the, you know, they, they would have the experimentations with drugs, with the, I guess, the mushrooms and then eventually LSD, could, could you describe, like you do so well in the book itself, it, well who they were trying to reach, they were not trying to reach undergraduate students, which was not, they would never be allowed to do that. And according to Harvard, but graduate students- DL: 30:39 Right. SM: 30:39 -or people off, that are not students, or could you talk about the whole process where people came to their home? And they had to, you know, have, they would be there themselves and guide them through a trip and just, just that kind of information? DL: 30:57 Okay, right. Well, there were, what was, what was called the Harbin Psilocybin Project, there are a couple of different aspects to it. I mean, there were really two kind of formal studies, research projects that came out of that. One was called the Concord Prison Project, which was giving psilocybin to prisoners, along with some kind of support and therapy, mostly with graduate students working with the, the prisoners to see if they could reduce recidivism rates. Psychedelic therapy, could reduce recidivism rates. But again, this what was very radical about that was not that they were using prisoners for drug tests, that was actually done quite a bit in some very unethical ways, with other drugs in that era, but what was interesting about that is, you know, something that the graduate students would trip with the prisoners, they would experience this, this psychedelic state together, or sometimes the prisoners would sit as guides and the graduate students would be taking the drugs, right. [chuckles] And so that, that was in line with Leary's kind of radical critique of power dynamics between research subjects and, and, and you know, and, and, and researchers or between patient and doctor, right, so, so that was an interest. So, that was one thing. And then there was another thing called the Good Friday experiment, which I can talk about if you want later. So that was, those were the two kind of formal sort of studies that came out of this, this project. But, but the other thing, and in some ways, the main thing that Leary was doing, and Alpert was doing, is they were just basically doing kind of basic research, I guess, you could say, in terms of psychedelics, and they would give, first it was psilocybin or the synthesized psilocybin, they were actually taking mushrooms, so it is like the active ingredient in magic mushrooms. So, they would give these to graduate students, but also to like, they are interested in giving it to artists, you know, painters, musicians, philosophers, other professors, you know, basically anybody who would agree to come over to, you know, Leary's house and have an experience, you know, four or five hour experience on, on psilocybin, and then write up, you know, reports about their experiences. So, it is kind of just raw research into, you know, people describing what happens in a psychedelic experience. And then, you know, and they were also interested in seeing if it could, you know, spawn that creativity among musicians or artists or, so all kinds of people, you know, famous jazz, semi famous jazz musician showed up and people like, you know, Allen Ginsberg, who was, you know, very well known, the beat poet. Folks like that kind of showed up. And, you know, in some ways, this, lot of times these research sessions kind of seemed more like parties [chuckles] than the research, you know. There was a lot of that going on. And, the, Leary and Alpert had agreed to not let undergraduates participate in this, because there are some dangerous psychological dangers as evidenced by the story I told, right. They are taking these substances. They had agreed to not let undergraduates participate. Andy Weil was an undergraduate and he had a friend and a dorm mate named Ron Winston who was the son of a famous jewelry, ran a jewelry business and, Alpert admitted that he also had kind of a romantic attraction to Ronnie Winston and well, they did not formally bring him in to the Harvard Psilocybin Project. Privately, you know, he would- gave, gave Ronnie Winston, psychedelics and kind of led him on some trips and got in trouble for that, right. [crosstalk] SM: 34:20 Yep. Yeah, go ahead. Yep. DL: 35:07 Yeah. And so, Andy Weil had also, Andrew Weil had also wanted to be part of this and was told that he could not. So, there was some jealousy I think involved with, you know, why did Ronnie Winston get to participate in this and not him. And so, Andy Weil was working as a reporter for the Harvard Crimson, the Harvard student newspaper and wound up doing an exposé about Leary. And Alpert had violated their agreement with the University by giving drugs to undergraduates and convinced, in a, fairly underhanded way to convince Ronnie Winston to kind of rat out Richard Alpert, and that-that was the-the incident that got them kicked out of Harvard. But there was a lot of wild stuff going on, you know, a lot of, you know, fairly, I do not know how to characterize it, just kind of fast and loose, was not, it was not a buttoned-down research project by any means. SM: 36:13 I know during those three years that they had their critics on the faculty too, that, there were some well-known names. I think one of them was B.F. Skinner, I think, the well-known names of people that I can remember in the (19)60s and (19)70s, who wrote books, you know, on psychology. DL: 36:31 Yeah, there was a lot of professional, you know, there was a lot of professional jealousy, I think in the, the departments, it was the psychology department. And there is this, their department was, I think called social relations, kind of a social psychology department. And yeah, there was a battle kind of between the behavioral, behaviorists who, Skinner was the leading behaviorists, and other in the Freudians. And then, there was also this whole kind of humanistic psychology was just kind of getting going, right. You there? SM: 37:05 Yes, several-several of the editors over a period of time had been writing articles on this, the, on Leary and Alpert too, even before Weil got there, I believe. And then he, he got into that position and, and one of the things that needs to be known to and, and you bring it up throughout the book or toward the end as well, that, the Harvard administration used Weil as kind of a spy. DL: 37:39 Yeah, well, what happened was, what happened was, they, none of the, there were several undergraduates, I think, who had been, had been given the drugs but, none of them wanted to really, you know, come out and sort of testify against Leary and Alpert because they, they were favor what they were doing. And, and Ronnie Winston, the way Andy Weil got Ronnie Winston to come forward is he, they went to Ronnie Winston's father, his name is Harry Winston who ran this, it was a benefit, I think a university benefactor and you know, fairly prominent businessman and [inaudible]. Anyway, he, they-they basically went-went to Ronnie Winston's father and said, "Your son is taking these, you know, dangerous drugs. And if he does not, if he does not, you know, admit this to the university administration, we are going to name him in the newspaper article," [laughs]. So, in order, and so Harry Winston, his father convinced him to, you know, basically tell the university administration what-what had gone on, he was given drugs by Professor Alpert. And that-that was, how they, you know, cut the goods on-on Alpert. And that was the one particular incident which where they can sort of pin down and use to expel them from the university. But, they were looking for a reason. I mean, and actually, you know, Leary and Alpert, were already ready to move on. I think they needed a bigger stage. And they certainly got, they certainly got one, you know, after they left Harvard, there was a lot of publicity about this, you know, the Harvard drug scandal that was page one of the New York Times, but it was really Andy Weil's story in the Harvard Crimson that started the whole thing, you know. Then, a day or two later, on-on the front page of The New York Times and anywhere with a big article, big exposé, or like magazine, even mentioning, you know, sort of rumors about heterosexual and homosexual affairs, you know, so there was some pretty vicious stuff [chuckles] put out there to get rid of them, to bring them down. Of course, they were not brought down they just moved on and, and became national figures and leaders in the, in the psychedelic counterculture of the (19)60s. SM: 39:59 I know as years went on Weil kind of, felt kind of guilty for what he did, because [crosstalk] DL: 40:08 I mean, he really, you know, the other thing is that through Andy Weil was also, doing, he, he started his own little drug, drug research project in the dorm with other people at this time, he was able to like use some, actually use some Harvard stationery and forged letters to send those labs and got some psilocybin sent to him. And, he's trying to sort of do his own version of, of psychedelic research with his friends in the dorm. So, none of which, of course, he mentions in the article that he wrote, [laughs] which brought down Leary and Alpert. So, yeah, later on in the (19)60s, Andy Weil became, you know, kind of the go to guy on, kind of understanding the psychedelic experience and wrote a book called, " The Natural Mind," about drugs, and human consciousness, and kind of, in some ways, replaced them for a while and kind of the go to guy for the straight story, you know, on what drugs really do and what the, benefits could be, and not exaggerating the dangers. And, you know, he was, he felt very bad about the way he handled the whole thing and sought forgiveness for many years from Leary and Albert. Leary forgave him, Alpert, it took a long time. But in the end, Alpert finally did forgive him for what he did. But, he was very bitter about it for many years. SM: 41:34 This kind of crisis, between (19)60 and (19)63, with Leary and Alpert was not something that Harvard had not seen before. You talk also about the Brook Farm situation, 120 years earlier with Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau. DL: 41:55 Yeah-yeah. SM: 41:58 And-and, and Emerson was kicked out of, kicked out as well. So, you, any, could you discuss that a little bit if you remember it? DL: 42:06 You know, I do not remember the details to tell you the truth. I am sorry, on that. I have to go back and look at the, look at the book. But Emerson was, was kicked out of Harvard, and Leary often would cite that, you know, as he is in such good standing right, [laughs] in the tradition of Emerson. But, but you know, I am sorry, at the top of my head, I cannot remember the details of what happened. SM: 42:30 What happened after they left? Where did Leary go? Where did Alpert go? And, and, of course, Weil, would continue his education at Harvard. DL: 42:43 Yeah, well, right after they got kicked out of Harvard, they were already had been setting up a kind of a research center or, another party headquarters [chuckles] down in Mexico, in a place called, [inaudible], in the coast of Mexico. And so, they, they just basically continued doing their research and experimenting with psychedelics of various kinds. By this time, LSD was brought into the, had been brought into the mix. So, they were inviting people down to Mexico, and it was the same thing, you know, artists, philosophers, you know, students, academics, were coming down there, psychologists to participate in these sessions, psychedelic sessions and writing up reports and all that. They very quickly got kicked out of there. They bounced around, there were a couple of places in the Caribbean, they tried to set up and eventually a few years later wound up at a place called Millbrook in upstate New York, an old beautiful estate, a mansion where they set up shop and basically continued their psychedelic experimentation research there for, for a few years into the mid, mid (19)60s. SM: 44:07 Yeah, and- DL: 44:08 Leary and Albert were above them. SM: 44:09 -I think they were getting funding from the Andrew Mellon Foundation, or I think one of the, some group was helping them pay for the- DL: 44:20 I am not sure what that is. [crosstalk] Well, it was. Yeah. So, there was a woman named Peggy Hitchcock- You put, you put little character descriptions for each of the four throughout the book, which I really liked. You called Timothy Leary, the trickster, Ram Dass was the seeker, and Houston Smith, the teacher, and Andrew Weil, the healer. -who was a supporter, and she was, one of the, an heiress of the melon fortune. And, and she had a brother named Billy Hitchcock. There are a couple of Hitchcock brothers, any, the, the Hitchcocks had this estate, which they were not using, and they basically just kind of turned it over to Leary and Alpert for a few years, and let them use this, use this beautiful estate. And, you know, the government was still after them. One of the funny ones, J. Gordon Liddy, who would become famous later as one of the Watergate burglar masterminds was a local D.A. in this county in New York and, he was going after Leary and Alpert, they were still on surveillance, and police raids. And you know, Leary by this time, Leary was notorious, so everywhere he went, the government was after him. And, eventually he busted going across the border from Mexico with a tiny little bit of marijuana, which he claims was planted on him and wound up going to prison. That is another part of the story that we can get into if you want to, but, but, you know Leary, by this time had become just notorious. And, and also kind of reveling in his notoriety. You know, he was a real, was a real, I call him a trickster. SM: 44:25 -right. DL: 46:02 Yeah, kind of the archetypal kind of, you know, role that they, that they took on to kind of explain, but. I wondered as I called Alpert the seeker is, you know, he was always, he never really came off as like, you know, all knowing guru or something. You know, he was just another kind of, seeker like so many of us, you know, in that era, we had, of course, you know, gone to India after, well, I mean, so you asked me what happened with them after Harvard, I mean, and after Millbrook. You know, Leary, well they both sort of showed up in San Francisco, you know, for the whole. So, while, there was this whole other scene going out on San Francisco in the early to mid (19)60s, psychedelic revival, you know, with a Grateful Dead, [inaudible] and the Merry Pranksters, you know, Alan Watts, and other things going on out here. In some ways, the scene in San Francisco was much wilder than what was going on in, back in Boston at Harvard. And so, the, the real focus, you know, shifted in like, (19)65-(19)66, out to San Francisco, which was kind of Mecca, for the whole psychedelic counterculture, fueled by the Grateful Dead and that is the whole scene here, the Jefferson Airplane, psychedelic rock, coming of age and the concerts and so, Alpert was out here for a while. He was a big part of that scene. And then went off to India, famously, and became a devotee of a guru named Neem Karoli Baba and became a spiritual teacher, reincarnated themselves as Ram Dass, came back and was very influential in helping, I think people of my generation, you know, kind of make sense of the psychedelic experience, put it in another context, maybe finding you know, kinder, gentler ways to explore their consciousness through say meditation or other spiritual practices, not never, never really renouncing psychedelics or denouncing psychedelics, but maturing and the spiritual search around that. See, that this particular period, is also that period of that you call the tidal wave that was coming, all these people come from all over the country to San Francisco. And, "Are you going to San Francisco," was a very popular song at that time, all on the radio. [sings] And if you go to San Francisco, to be sure to wear flowers in your hair. SM: 48:34 That tidal wave was, a lot of them from the East Coast. DL: 48:37 It was from all over, yeah. SM: 48:39 (19)65 and (19)68. DL: 48:40 Yeah it was eventful. SM: 48:40 What were some of the, I know there were a lot of big events that happened at that, during that, there was a bee-in, there was the trip festival, there was a love pageant rally, I am thinking and then many other things. I know that Alpert also went to work on the Oracle. And he was a writer or among the editors. DL: 49:01 Yeah, he wrote some articles in the Oracle, which was really one of the first, you know, was, underground newspapers. Yeah, they were, I mean, it really began with Ken Kesey, you know, who, Ken Kesey was a, a very well known, young, successful novelist at the time. He wrote two books, "Sometimes a Great Notion," and "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest," And, so he's, really up and coming writer, and then he, he was exposed to LSD by volunteering in a research project. I think it was at a VA hospital, that Administration Hospital in Menlo Park, which was, turned out later was secretly funded by the CIA, which was doing their own research about psychedelics. [laughter] So, talk about blowback, right? SM: 49:59 [laughs] DL: 49:59 I mean, they did not know what they were getting into and they turned on Kevin Kesey, so, Ken Kesey. [laughs] So Kesey, started this group called, they started having these events called acid tests. And I think this began when was, like I said been awhile since I wrote this but, like (19)63-(19)64 when the first acid tests where they basically had, you know, kind of parties and they put the acid in the punch, and a lot of dancing, and kind of carrying on, and very revelatory, celebratory atmosphere. And so, there were series of these acid tests, which got, which moved up into San Francisco and got bigger and bigger. So, there was that and then there was something called the Trips Festival. There was the human being in Golden Gate Park, which was when Leary I think famously uttered his mantra "Turn on, tune in, drop out." SM: 50:14 Yep. DL: 50:14 So, you know, that was an event in Golden Gate Park with Allen Ginsberg, and Alpert, and Schneider a lot of the beat poets, and of course out of San Francisco bands, Aeroplan, Grateful Dead, they were all playing there. Yeah so that was, and that was (19)66-(19)67. A lot of people were already kind of saying, "Well, it is time to move on." There was something called the, "Death of the Hippie," they had a big, sort of, a march, {inaudible] are enough, because the hippie thing, and trying to become the media, and you know the media had discovered this, right. SM: 50:14 Right. DL: 50:17 But by the-the time that song came out, "If you Come to San Francisco," you know, I mean, a lot of people were already saying it is time to move on, you know, the scene was just getting too crazy and too crowded. And, and the drugs were changing. People were, you know, getting into speed, and heroin, and more harder, dangerous drugs and- SM: 51:55 Yeah, the 19- the 1967, Summer of Love, the next year in (19)68 was a disaster. DL: 52:01 Yeah-yeah. SM: 52:03 And- DL: 52:04 I mean, that was a bit before my time, but you know, yeah. And then, you know, of course, there was, but you know, it was. I do not know, it is hard to say exactly. It all depends on what particular scene you were in, right. I mean, where you were in all this. I mean, when I came in (19)72, it still seemed pretty, some of it still seemed pretty cool, and still pretty, you know, hopeful. But you are talking to old timers, and "No, you should have been here in (19)66 man," you know. SM: 52:30 Well, you in, in the book, you talk about the interview that Leary had with Playboy Magazine. And there is two things that, I, that come out of that interview very clearly. They said, they asked him, "Who you are trying to make love with?" And he says "I am making, I want to make love with God, at the purpose of what I am doing. I want to make love with God, I want to make love with myself. And I want to make love with a woman." [laughs] DL: 52:54 Yeah. SM: 52:54 And then, and then he said, and then, I think Allen Ginsberg confronted him at a panel, and this, you described this, and because they, they were questioning some of the, one of the, some of the things he was saying whether everything was true or not. DL: 53:14 Oh, right. [chuckles] SM: 53:14 And Leary said, "One third of everything I say is bullshit. One third of everything I say is wrong. And the, and one third is, right. So that means it is like a baseball player. I am in the Hall of Fame," [laughs] DL: 53:29 Right? One third of like, brilliant gems of wisdom. Right? Yeah. That was Leary, I mean, you know, that that Playboy interview was, you know, notorious. And he was a, he was a trickster, right. I mean, he would just make shit up, you know. [chuckles] And he was, you know, giving an interview to Playboy, so, of course, he was going to talk a lot about sex. Well, there was a lot of, there was a lot of sex, and a lot of acting out in that whole scene, you know. But, yeah no, I love that, quote, you just started, recited from Leary. That really says it all, you know, he had a real sense of humor, you know, I mean, it was like that, that is kind of one of the things that you kind of miss from the (19)60s there was a sense of irony, and no one was taking ourselves too seriously. And it was all kind of a cosmic joke in some way. You know, there was a lightness to it, that, we do not have any more, political discourse. [crosstalk] There was you know, there was division, there was, people forget that (19)60s were very divisive time too, you know, but it was sort of the whole so called, "generation gap," right and all that. But I mean the divisiveness, it pales in comparison to what we are experiencing now, you know. SM: 53:33 Yes. [laughs] I know that, when Alpert became part of the, the Oracle, the, the- DL: 54:43 He wrote for, the I mean, he, he wrote for the Oracle- he was not like one of the, he did not found it or anything but, it was a guy, Alan Colin who started it and there was a collective started it, but yeah, he did, write, he did write some pieces for it. SM: 54:45 Right. You define the, the evolution of the Oracle it was, it was an idealistic exploration into the personal experience and social implication of mind-mind, I am, I cannot read my writing, mind expansion. And- DL: 55:11 Also, it was just a beauty, just technically it was, it was the whole psychedelic art scene, right. You know, these famous posters from that era. And this is all done, you know, before computers, this is all done by hand, you know, and this is beautiful artwork, very trippy artwork in the Oracle. It was just, you know, it was there was nothing like it [chuckles], it was not just the content. I mean, it started out, it is kind of more, of a political kind of focus, kind of a new, less political focus, but it became more, kind of the journal. And this, was a blossoming psychedelic culture. And just, just you go back and look at some of, the old editions. I mean, there's a, at some point somebody came out with, I think, Alan Colin, the founder of it, came out with a hardcover, facsimile edition, you know, reprint of all those Oracle's, I actually have, this beautiful, beautiful artwork, and just so you know, reminiscent of the time. SM: 56:07 This truly was, when you, when all these things you have been talking about was the Age of Aquarius, that were so, you know, we think of the fifth dimension singing that song and, and that really was the Age of Aquarius. And, you know, some of the things you know, were, eastern mystique, mysticism, utopian revolution, you bring up sexual liberation, the ecological awareness, even Native American spiritual. DL: 56:36 Right, all the different liberation movement in America {crosstalk] women, gay people, young people, it was all, you know, all liberation. Yeah, it was a very, you know, and a lot of this was not all fueled by psychedelics, but a lot of it was, you know, because when you on the psychedelic experience, you tend to like, and appreciate, let us just take the environmental movement, you know, I mean, obviously, there is a lot of other reasons for the [inaudible]. But a lot of people had experiences on psychedelics, where they really felt at one with nature and had a whole new way of looking at sort of nature, and themselves in, in a holistic way, right. So that was, that was, I think, fueling a lot of the interest in environmentalism. Like people think of the (19)60s counterculture as being protesting, and sort of being against everything. But, they were not just against everything. I mean, they were for civil rights. They were for environmental protection. You know, they were for sexual liberation, you know. In a lot of ways, it was a very hopeful movement, there was a lot of divisiveness, of course, but it was basically a lot of hope. SM: 57:46 Toward the latter part of the (19)60s, there was the, Time Magazine wrote an article on, the crisis in, with drugs in America and talking about the crisis of drugs in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. And but then, so there were there was also a crisis of drugs in the (19)50s and (19)80s. And you bring, bring it up in the, in the book. Alcoholism was a big crisis in the 1950s. And, and, and we have drugs today, so that, you know, but there was a lot of criticism of LSD. And what was happening at that time. You go into detail on it in, in your book. Could you talk a little bit about the press and half of the coverage of LSD in the late (19)60s? DL: 58:36 Yeah, well, you know, there was a lot, what people sort of forget is, let us go back a little bit, you know, in the 19- So, LSD was synthesized. It was this, this psychedelic, powerful psychedelic properties of LSD was discovered by Albert Hoffman, the Swiss chemist in 1943-1944. So soon after the war, Sandoz started sending out LSD to psychologists, academics, researchers all over the world. I mean, it, the-the rules were much looser than about you know, how to experiment and deal with new emerging drugs right, than they are now. But, so Sandoz was a chemical company was sending out LSD that people, anybody who would ask for it, basically with any kind of a credential. And basically, trying to, what can we, what can we use this drug for? And so, there was all kinds of research going on. First, they thought it well, it would be the way to understand the psychotic state because in some way the psychedelic experience can sort of mimic psychosis in some ways. So, there was a lot of research into that going on everywhere and looking for beneficial uses of the psychedelics. And so, there was a lot of work around using psychedelics to help treat, for instance, alcoholism in the 1950s, there are studies going on all over the world. And there was a lot of promising results in terms of using it for, to treat depression, alcoholism, things like that, trauma, along with, with psychotherapy. So, there was a lot of positive coverage of psychedelics, including the potential for generating mystical experiences in the 1950s, and 1960s. And it really was not until the drug became associated with the counterculture, and the anti-war movement, and the hippies, and the new left, and all that, that the government really sort of started targeting it. And, you know, the thing about drug prohibition, it is usually, it is not normally not about one particular drug, whether it is alcohol, tobacco, LSD, heroin, whatever, it is more about who's taking it, right. [chuckles] It is an attack on, on, on who's using it as much as on what the drug actually is or how dangerous it is. So, the Nixon administration basically determined that or decided that, well, one way, one way we can go after both the civil rights movement, and the counterculture, hippie, new left movement is to increase penalties of their, you know, their common pleasures, which were marijuana and psychedelics, right, because marijuana was, you know, very big in the African American community and along with other communities. But so, a lot of the, I think the so called, "drug war" of the (19)60s and (19)70s, was really a political war against certain groups in this country. And that is pretty clear now. And even some people in Nixon's administration later kind of totally admitted this. SM: 1:01:54 I think in 1966, it was still legal, LSD was still legal. And in the latter part, it was banned, I believe in California, and then in (19)68, was banned in the United States. DL: 1:02:09 Yeah, it was, it was sort of, it was, kind of, it was getting banned sort of state by state. And then there was something called the, "Controlled Substances, U.S. Controlled Substances Act," which was passed in 1970, which really increased penalties for a lot of drugs. And then these are, and that is the, for the most part still the case. People forget that marijuana under federal law, is still illegal, right. SM: 1:02:33 Right. DL: 1:02:33 I mean, Biden just recently, you know, pardoned, you know, some, some a lot of people but, but the law says that under federal law, marijuana is still a felony, right? So, it is right up there with heroin, right? So, the, the drug laws are just insane, right? There is, there is no sense to them at all. SM: 1:02:53 Some of the press was talking about the flashbacks, and people killing themselves, jumping off buildings, and I can remember back, I remember this because it was on black and white T.V., Art Link letter on one of his shows talking about his death of his daughter. I remember that. DL: 1:03:08 Right. SM: 1:03:08 I remember seeing it. DL: 1:03:09 Yeah no, that got a lot of attention, that got a lot of attention. And, he really went after Leary and he blamed Leary, you know. Yeah, so that is what happened, like the one incident, you know, who knows? Who knows whether, you know, LSD really caused his daughter to commit suicide, or what else was going on there? SM: 1:03:26 Right. DL: 1:03:26 It is a very complicated thing. But, yeah, there were there will be, you know, the scare stories. And so, the media really turned on the whole psychedelic scene, I do not know, like, you know, late (19)60s and into the, into the (19)70s. And, and it was not, and then when the tragedy that it was not just, you know, increasing penalties for possession or sale, it was really caused universities to and medical centers to stop doing research about the potential beneficial, beneficial effects of psychedelics- SM: 1:03:58 That is right. DL: 1:03:58 -which has finally come back now in very big way. You know, it is getting a lot of attention right now. But that was all kind of shut down from basically (19)75 to like, 2005. So, like, you know, 30 years, research into, you know, exactly how these strokes can help us understand the brain and administer to the beneficial uses for alcoholism, depression, trauma, that is all coming back now, in a really big way. The government is even starting to fund it again, just recently, one or two years. But yeah, there was a real dark age of research into psychedelics. And it was not just Timothy Leary, that caused that, I mean he was a factor in it, but there were lots of reasons for that. SM: 1:04:00 Yes, yes. What was called the psychedelic era was turning into the amphetamine era, and I know that, the term, “tune in, turnout, and drop out," that was certainly the code for Leary but it was not the code for the other three. And that is something and because they were in the turn, they could tune in, turn on, but they were not going to do drop out, and I am talking about Elbert Smith. And Weil, they went on to do unbelievable things, and, and just your thoughts on now, the downward fall of Leary toward the end of his life, Leary and Alpert going to India and coming back and being the change person because of the guru experience? And certainly, all the things that Weil has done in his life with his enterprises, his books, can you talk about, could you talk about those three? That, what, refused to drop out? That is why- DL: 1:05:42 You know what, let me just stop you for a second. I think my, do you hear me? SM: 1:05:46 Yes. DL: 1:05:48 Okay. I think my-my earbuds are about to die. So, I am going to change my give me a second here, okay. SM: 1:05:54 Yep. DL: 1:05:54 Let us see. [inaudible] Okay, how is that? SM: 1:06:06 Okay, okay. DL: 1:06:08 Okay, man. I am sorry. So, well, yeah- SM: 1:06:12 [crosstalk] If you could just talk about the, you know, after all this stuff with Leary, but certainly, what Ram Dass, Andrew Weil and Houston Smith, what they did with their lives, after all this? DL: 1:06:30 Yeah, you know, yeah. Well, you know, I think Andy Weil, like I said, he went on to, really become a proponent of what was called integrative medicine and holistic healing. And, you know, basically looking at the connection between mind, body, and spirit in terms of health, and wellness. And, you know, that is, it was not just Andy Weil but he was a big part of that. And, you know, just like today, you know, it is pretty well accepted that you know, like, say meditation can be used for like stress reduction, and, you know, the health benefits of meditation and various, you know, mind, body, spirit disciplines. A lot of that came out of the (19)60s, and a lot of that came out of the psychedelic, ritually, people got first kind of, taste of that with the psychedelic experience, then they went on to, to find kinder, gentler ways of doing that with meditation and other spiritual practices. And so, just basically, you know, kind of revolutionizing the way we look at health and wellness, which you see now, like in a mainstream, like medical, like Kaiser Permanente, the big health care provider here with all kinds of focus on, you know, mindfulness, meditation, stress reduction, a lot of that, came, come, came out of the (19)60s in the psychedelic era, and Andy Weil, you know, it was a, it was a big part of that, and continues to have a big center in Arizona, and training doctors in bringing together both, you know, not throwing out traditional mainstream medicine, but combining it with other forms of, other ideas of ,what constitutes health and wellness. So, I think he was influential in that way. And Houston Smith, you know, I think really encouraged a lot of Americans to have a more open-minded attitude towards religion, and people be openness to the wisdom of other religious traditions. With tolerance and understanding in that way, I think Houston was very, very influential there. And, you know, people have psychedelic experiences, they often have deep, profound mystical experiences, which go beyond you know, doctrine, dogma, and denominationalism. We used to look at religion say back in the (19)50s, and (19)60s, and a lot of people of course, still do, but you know, I think that is one of the big shifts in the, the religious landscape is that you know, there's fastest growing religion now are, you know, people who call themselves spiritual, but not religious. They may not be affiliated with, you know, mainstream religion, but they still are interested in personal spiritual experience. And that is, that is what, I think that, that shift towards the experiential way of understanding religion was a lot of that was fueled by, by psychedelics and later by meditation, and other spiritual disciplines who are interested in Buddhism, and Hinduism, and all that even Native American spirituality here. A lot of people got interested in that through the, initially through psychedelics, and that is a huge shift. You know, it is some people even think it is like a new kind of great awakening, like kind of moving away from, word-based religions to experiential based religion, which was far beyond psychedelics, but something psychedelics fuel a lot of that. So, I think we can I think Houston has something to do with that along with long with Alpert. SM: 1:06:32 Well, if I can read something from your book, is that okay? DL: 1:07:04 Sure. SM: 1:07:05 Yeah, this- DL: 1:07:35 You will probably say it much better than I will say it. [laughs] SM: 1:10:09 -this is on page 183. And I think it is really, you talk about how the counterculture became the culture. And it is, it is very well said, I will be really fast here. "Why did Weil's career suddenly take off? Weil had been saying the same thing since the (19)70s. Weil did not change, America changed. Sometime in the 1990s, American culture caught up with the (19)60s counterculture. The counterculture became the culture. Yoga became big business. Meditation is prescribed by the family doctor. Supermarkets stocked organic produce and home, homeopathic cures. The Rolling Stones provide the soundtrack for computer advertisements. Looking back at it all, Weil sees a direct connection between this experience on psychedelic drugs and his later career, in holistic health. Those experiences show me what is inside your head is connected to what is outside your head, and that you change, things, outside change by working on things inside, he said, and there is a clear application to help their state of mind, belief, and expectations absolutely influence health, and the course of illness. And those days, that kind of thinking was pretty much out of the mainstream. Now it has really changed." I think that is beautifully written. DL: 1:11:31 Yeah, well thank you, yeah. SM: 1:11:32 And it describes it perfectly about, you know, how, like, how the counterculture became the culture. DL: 1:11:38 Yeah-yeah. Well, you know, so much of this, yes, Steven was fueled by demographics. You know, I mean, the, what happened, you know, the whole baby boom generation is this, huge group of people who kind of, you know, we have gone through, gone through life and influencing the culture, because there is so many of us, right. And, and so, you know, eventually, you know, people who were a part of the counterculture, were running, you know, were running companies, and were running, you know, becoming politicians. And, and were running corporations, you know, I mean, these people, you know, eventually, assumed kind of positions of power and influence, in the media and elsewhere. So that, I think that is, that is part of it. I think that what Americans do not remember, though, is that, you know, the counterculture was definitely a minority of people, baby boomers. Everyone has an interest, into all this, but it did sort of, the ideas kind of spread in, into mainstream culture over the next few decades for sure. SM: 1:12:41 Yep. Yep. DL: 1:12:44 Sure. SM: 1:12:46 Now, you were talking about the latter parts of their lives for- DL: 1:12:50 Yeah, you know, what I was, I just was looking at, can I read a few paragraphs from the book? SM: 1:12:54 Oh, yes-yes. DL: 1:12:55 Cause, I, I think so there's, this is a quote, this is about Leary. And I told you that Leary kind of, you know, seemed a little lost in some ways in the last few decades of his life. He died in the (19)90s. He was the first of the four in the book to die. There's a guy Robert Forte, who spent a lot of time with Leary towards the end of his life, younger, younger guy. Anyway, so this is, his, this is his take, you know, we asked him, this is Robert Fore, was Tim, is it a quote from Forte, "Was Tim a wise man or was he a psychopath? Psychopathic, egotistical maniac or both? I would hang out with him until three in the morning. Sometimes he would appear like a non-ordinary being. There was this, a tangible aura, he would glow. Sometimes he was just so clear and present and positive. But other times he would just morph into this twisted, angry, fucked up old man," end of the quote. Then I say, "Leary was different things to different people. He was reviled. He was revered. He was a prophet. He was a phony. He was a brilliant, innovative thinker. He was a fool. He captured the irreverent, rebellious spirit of the (19)60s. He was a fame seeking manipulative con artist. Who was he? Perhaps the Trickster said it best when he once quipped, quote, "you get the Timothy Leary you deserve." [laughs] SM: 1:14:17 Wow. [laughs] DL: 1:14:17 That is the end of the quote, so. That, that sort of sums up Leary especially towards the end of life, I think. SM: 1:14:23 Right. [chuckles] And how about Alpert? DL: 1:14:29 You know, how Alpert you know, he-he, he became, you know, he wrote a series of books and continued to lecture. And, you know, he became a devotee of, of an Indian guru Neem Karoli Baba. But, he never really became a guru himself, you know, and that is, I think, what made him relatable to people. He was just another, another seeker. And then you know, in the (19)80s, he got-got very involved with, he started helping to start something called the Seva Foundation, they did a lot of- SM: 1:15:04 Very good, very great. DL: 1:15:05 Charitable work with helping with blindness in Nepal. And then during, he got very interested in the whole, sort of the death and dying movement, you know, Elisabeth Kubler Ross, and the whole move towards re-examining how we deal with death. And the whole rise of the hospice movement, you know, which people forget is a relatively recent thing, you know, and did a lot of work with, during the AIDS crisis, you know, of helping gay people, and other people who are dying, make that transition, you know, writing about it, but also just personally, one on one dealing with a lot of people doing a lot of quiet, you know, work helping people. And then he had a big stroke, Ram Dass had a stroke in the (19)90s, which really inhibited his ability to speak, you know, at the time, he was going to start a kind of a radio show about consciousness. And of course, radio was off the table when you have to spend like 30 seconds between words to find the words, you know, and he struggled. So, he struggled with his speech, and it got a little better over the years. But, you know, he, that the stroke really slowed him down. He moved to Maui and lived the last parts, of part of his life on, on Maui, but continued to teach, and people would come see him and there is a whole online, there is a whole group of his, his kind of friends and followers started a website, which, you know he, he passed away a few years ago, but he's still out there on the internet, you know, there's so much material from his past that can be recycled and enjoyed by people. So, he continues to have an influence even posthumously. And I think, in a very positive, pretty positive way. And how about Smith? [inaudible] I mean, Houston, Houston, also just died a few years back, a few years before, Alpert. He continued to write, continued to teach well into his 90s. I actually did a little work, for a while I was helping on an autobiography that he was trying to put out, which eventually did. He got very involved with the Native American church, and helping them secure the religious freedom to use peyote and their, you know, religious rights. He, you know, he was, he was always kind of skeptical, but also supportive of the psychedelic movement. You know, he called it on its excesses. But was basically supportive. And I think, glad to see that there was a lot of new research and, you know, last decade or so into the beneficial uses of psychedelics and understanding the spiritual and mystical dimensions of it, so he, you know, he tried to stay as involved as he could later in life. You know, he almost made it to 100. You know he, had some, some cognitive problems and memory problems, you know, towards the end, but he continued to hang in there till the end. SM: 1:18:15 Well, I wanted, you, in the conclusion, I have just got some, some things that you wrote, and then we will finish. I think this is very important. You say there's a Rosetta Stone that brings the Harvard psychedelic club together, Leary, Albert, Smith, and Weil did nothing less than inspire a generation of Americans to redefine the nature of reality. And another one here is that people who take LSD and those who do not, people understand, should understand that we should listen to both. Because reality is different things to different people. And so, reality under drugs, do not knock it until you have tried it, and that kind of thing. And that is something that I think, goes into the fact we ought to be listening to each other more, instead of judging each other more. And one very important- DL: 1:19:09 There was, there was kind of a divisiveness in the (19)60s, if you turned on or not. Like are you, remember the Jimmy Hendrix, Are You Experienced? SM: 1:19:17 Right. DL: 1:19:18 They were talking about that, yeah. SM: 1:19:19 Now, one very important part you talk about is the boomers were raised by Dr. Spock. And Dr. Spock's main message was that children need to think that anything is possible. Well that gets right into the counterculture too. Do you have any thoughts on that and Dr. Spock? DL: 1:19:39 Yeah, well, that is, you know, that is part of the whole, the whole it is much bigger than psychedelics and much bigger than really the (19)60s, this is really the whole human potential movement. You know and, and like I said before, this shift towards people focusing on personal, spiritual, mystical experience and, and kind of finding their own way, in some ways, almost kind of growing their own religion. You see that in the whole, spiritual but not religious cohort, which is, which is the fastest growing religion in America right now by far. So yeah, that is all, that is all out there. And what is interesting right now, you know, in 2020, in the, you know, the fall of 2022. You know, there is so much, there has been a huge new wave of interest in psychedelics, both spiritually and therapeutically. Now, there's clinical trials going on, it has been a lot written about it. I mean, I wrote a book, my last, my last book was called, "Changing our Minds, Psychedelic Sacraments and the New Psychotherapy," which was about both the clinical trials that are going on now to, to, to use psilocybin and MDMA to help people with, with, with various mood disorders and behaviors. And, and also the whole spirit, our whole spiritual Renaissance. There's a lot of psychedelic churches forming, underground psychedelic churches are coming above ground now. It is a really interesting time. And about a year after, about a year and a half after my book came out, Michael Pollan, the noted, you know, food writer, came out with a book, very similar title, "How to Change your Mind." Kind of a similar focus to my book, but his was a runaway New York Times bestseller, he had a much bigger publisher. Anyway, his, that, his book was very influential. And then there is a whole Netflix series that came out a few months ago based on his book. Nova just last week did a, did a show on can psychedelic cure. I am writing a series of articles now on, kind of the, psychedelic churches that are coming above ground. So, so this is, there's a whole new wave of this just in the last few years. And more, and more people you know, who have never really thought about this or experienced this are starting to read about it, and want to experiment with it, and laws are changing. There i's probably 20-25 cities around the country have decriminalized psychedelics in various great extent, the entire state of Oregon has basically decriminalized all drugs and is setting up a regulated legal, psilocybin facilitated psilocybin services kind of system. Colorado is going to vote on the same thing next month. So, California was talking about it. There's a lot of changes going on. And this is all kind of, in some ways, an echo of the (19)60s. SM: 1:22:30 Very good. This is the last thing I am going to read. And I am on the last question. This is so beautifully written by you on page 215. And it is this, "None of the men of the Harvard Psychedelic Club officially fall into the demographic, known as the baby boomers: the generation born in the aftermath of World War Two was their primary audience. Many of these kids were "Spock babies," so called because they were raised by parents taking the advice of Dr. Spock, the influential American pediatrician. His main message was that children need to sink that anything, that anything is possible. Those of us boomers who grew up into the countercultures, and are revolutionaries tried to live out that prescription, and many of us turn for a time to psychedelic drugs to broaden their vision of what was possible. We did not always live out our visions, but at least we sought them out. Perhaps the historical importance of Leary, Alpert, Weil, and Smith is not so much any particular vision. But the very process of envisioning for a moment in time we have the experience of expanding our minds. And one of the side effects of that condition is envisioning an alternative way to live." That is beautifully written. DL: 1:23:50 Thank you. I mean that is a good note to end on. [laughs] SM: 1:23:53 I think it is a great note to end and what, what I would like to thank you again, the question I want to ask that I have been asking everyone at the very end of my interviews is what, the people that are going to be listening to this are going to be, could be 15 years, 50 years from now. They could be students, faculty, national scholars listening to this tape, what is your word of advice for them? Any things you might want to say, a lasting message that you would like to deliver to them? DL: 1:24:32 Big of a question for me. [laughs] Just take a deep breath relax and it will be okay. SM: 1:24:41 [laughs] All right, well. DL: 1:24:45 Do not take yourselves, do not take yourself too seriously. SM: 1:24:49 Well, I tell you, I want to thank you for doing this and I had to cut, you know, there is two parts now because I had to turn this off because the battery was low. So, we have got the batteries. But, thank you very much. And- DL: 1:25:03 Sure, happy, to happy to help. It was good talking to you, Steven. SM: 1:25:06 You have a great day and I am going to turn this off and, okay, one last thing is you will get a copy of this that will be through the mail, on email sometime in the next two weeks. And, then you will you can listen to it and if it is okay, I hope they, you know, they have to put it together now because I had to take a break. And then, you will just let them know so that we can put it on site with your picture that you sent me, and a brief biography in the back would be expanded down the road. So, thank you very much. DL: 1:25:42 [inaudible] SM: 1:26:01 Well, it was beautifully- DL: 1:26:02 [inaudible] SM: 1:26:08 Well, you are one of my top 100. But I, you know, I am a bibliophile. I read a lot of books. Your book is one of my top 100, ever. So, I just learned so much from it. I never was a very big fan of Leary. But, I have become a big fan of Ram Dass and, and one of the things that he has done over the years, and I have always knew about Mr. Houston Smith. I knew about him already. And Andrew Weil, we already know a lot about him, so. I do not dislike any of them, but Leary's a different man that is for sure. [laughs] He was a rebel. All right. DL: 1:26:46 [inaudible] SM: 1:26:47 You take care and be safe. Bye. I am recording, still? I am. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. 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Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2022-10-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Doug Bradley Biographical Text Doug Bradley, a native of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is an author, educator, and veteran. For almost thirty years, he worked as a communications professional at the University of Wisconsin where he still teaches. Bradley wrote several books including Who'll Stop the Rain: Respect, Remembrance, and Reconciliation in Post-Vietnam America. Bradley is the co-author with Craig Werner of We Gotta Get Out of This Place: The Soundtrack of the Vietnam War. He has a Bachelor's degree in English from Bethany College and he also earned a Master's degree in English from Washington State University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:56:41 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Vietnam; Music; Vietnam war; Vietnam veterans; People; Song; Home; Book; Draft; Memorial Wall, Boomer generation; Soldiers; Army. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Douglas Bradley Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 26 October 2022 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:03 All right, so I am, I am going to be interviewing today with Doug Bradley, who was co-author of the book, We Gotta Get Out of This Place: The Soundtrack of the Vietnam -Vietnam War. His co-author is Dr. Craig Werner. And Doug thank you very much for doing this interview with me. And I want to start out by this quote from Marie Stir [Heather Marie Stir] from the back of your book, it is on the- your back cover. And it states here. "The diversity of voices and songs reminds us that the home front and the battlefront are always connected. And the music and the war are deeply intertwined. In reading this book, there is no better words than this. Describe it. It is unbelievable." And I, and I just want to start out by finding out I know you served in Vietnam. But could you describe your growing up years, your college years, your high school years, your parents background and your connection to music as a youngster, if you can go from there? DB: 01:11 Sure, I would be glad to. I go from there and keep going. And I think I think you were really put your finger on it by alluding to that quote that had Marie Stir now, a scholar in your own right, a prophet, Southern Mississippi, and a former student of Craig [Craig Werner] that UW Madison, she put it so well, because you could not separate the music from the time from the memories from the people from the experience. And that is what music does. And I am sure you and I will talk a little bit more about that. Yeah, I was a member of the baby boomer generation, son of World War Two dad, inner city neighborhood I grew up with in southwest Philadelphia, was populated by inner city dads who had I mean, World War Two dads who had survived the war, won the war, saved the world from fascism. And we were ready to get on with their lives. And best way to do that was to reaffirm their existence by having kids. So, they were a bunch of us. And I could have grown up probably in any inner city anywhere in America, the wife was pretty much saying mom stayed home dad went to work. Kids played around, you know, did their own thing abroad were basically on their own. So, the mother's call was coming in for dinner. And, you know, was not bucolic. But it was it was what a lot of kids I think my age experienced in post-World War Two America. The interesting thing about my household was that my there was always music filtering through the house. And by that, I mean, my dad was a- would be crooner. I think if he had had his druthers he would have, he would have been like Frank Sinatra or Johnny Hartman. He was always singing a beautiful show tune in a lovely tenor voice that he had, my dad had a beautiful voice. And so, there was always something you know, emanating from him. And part of that was from his growing up in that era, the music was an escape for him from a tough life. He has a kid. And he found solace in it. He even for a while during World War Two after breaking his legs in jump as a paratrooper. And before being sent to Madison, Wisconsin, Brian now lives to be trained as a radio operator in the Army Air Force. He, when they were trying to figure out what to do with him, he was at a USL club in Texas, and started to sing almost every night. And because, you know, people like I was singing along to some of the shout tunes. And he did a stint there with I think it was Lionel Hampton's half-brothers, who was trying to encourage my dad to maybe think about a career postwar as-as a singer in a band. That never happened. But he always had a he always had a song and my brother on the other hand, four and a half years older than they were in Philadelphia. So, as we were growing up in the (19)50s, he was born in (19)43. He was coming of age. He was part of a whole music scene in Philadelphia. And Stan do watch street corner groups white and black, you know, often, you know, the some of the early groups that the Crests, Del-Vikings, like some of the guys my brothers saying that were mixed in terms of race integration, that was the music nothing music does to us and forth. And he was always coming up with a lyric or a song. To cool to go on bandstand, they I thought they were better than bandstands. So, they went to the, to the Police Athletic League dances there were Danny & the Juniors and Bobby Rydell and Frankie Avalon and Fabian would show up and sing their song. So, you know, there is, so there is that music. My mom is sort of playing opera when she can from her Albanian parents, you know, who were big on Verdi and Mazzetti. And so, you know, you just always had music around the household but, and then for me and my brother, we started to buy 45 records with our allowance, because we had our music started to begin to define us, Elvis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry, were not my parents’ music, or my grandparent’s music. They were ours. And they will begin to differentiate us and distinguish us as a music generation. And, you know, I went to I did six years in parochial school and Philadelphia and my dad got a transfer in a job that he had selling, Maxwell House food, coffee, and two years in Youngstown, Ohio, and then four years in Pittsburgh, where I went to high school, registered for selective service when I turned 18 in Pittsburgh, went to Thomas Jefferson High School, which was right outside of Claritin, PA, where the big steelworks were and the middle managers of US Steel did not want their kids growing up with the guys that did all the grunt work. So, they made basically made a village up the hill from Claritin called Pleasant Hills. Sounds like you know, a typical American playing the city on the hill. So, their kids could go to school with other white kids and not and not deal with the people that worked. The day laborers that worked in the steel mills that three shifts a day with steel was booming in America. By came of age, their music, again, so much a part of the light, you know, great DJs you know, great playlists, everybody had the same top 20, you listen to the same music, we all did his generation who was AM radio before it was FM. And so, we all had the same soundtrack. And we sang along the same music when the Beatles came, you know, we had the best of Motown the best of the British invasion, the best the country, and they all sort of spoke to each other and played with each other. So, it was a great time to be growing up. We had this great record collection, every bit of [inaudible] and since we were kids and Philadelphia. So, I got the play, I was a designated DJ for sock, hops and dances, made a little money. But always again, you know, buying a new record listening to a new record trying to describe a new sound, you know, turning on audiences to music, could not sing a lyric did not play an instrument. But again, using music as a way to sort of, you know, not only survive, but to define who I was, and what I thought my generation wanted to listen to. And that parlayed into college. I know as a kid raised a Catholic, I had aspirations of Notre Dame where I got accepted but could not afford it. I applied to a couple other big-name schools that great grades as a good college and a good high school student. But I did not have the money. My you know, my parents that I had instilled in my brother and I mainly my mom, that she wanted us to get an education and to take education seriously and go to college. There we were first generation my brother went to California State University in California, PA, not in California, California, and became a very successful chemistry teacher for 35 years in the Philadelphia area. And I was an English major at Bethany College where I got a scholarship and a loan and a work commitment became a BMOC. And while I was at Bethany, I became social chairman. And in a time when we had a we had a nice allotment from students SEC fees for entertainment. And we had a co-co-chair for a while and then I pretty much ran it myself for two and a half years. We were dealing directly with the agencies and getting right to the talent who wanted money upfront and wanted, you know, things provided like a sound system and light system, both of which we had purchased that were top notch run by good student workers. So, over the course of from 1967, we got elected and our platform we ran on was- we were going to bring smoking and miracles to campus. And we won the election in February and smoking and miracles appeared in March. SM: 09:38 Wow. DB: 09:39 And from there we had 18 other amazing groups over the course of two and a half years. Everything from the Iron Butterfly, the Sonny Terry and Brownie McGhee to Josh White Jr. to Ian and Sylvia [Tyson] to Spanky and Our Gang to the 5th Dimension to the Association. I mean, just about everybody that had a number one record- at the time Jefferson Airplane, to Surrealistic Pillow, Somebody to Love was at the top of the charts. And we had them at Bethany College. So, it was a, it was just a great stretch. And of course, it got me. It was funny, a couple of the people that are working with guys in New York that work for the agencies and these groups directly said to me, you know, would you be interested in getting into this business? Well, the problem was, there was the other business going on. You know, when I register for selective service, I was classified student deferment to S, meaning as I was making my way progressing through college, making my grades, I was not going to get drafted. Now, before 1968, I graduated in (19)69. Before (19)68, you could keep your deferment through graduate school. So, if I was going to go to law school, which I was going to when I was accepted, at Boston University, I could have kept my deferment. If I say I had graduated from college in 1967. I graduated college in May (19)69. And I graduated May by June, they changed my classification to one A, which basically meant come and get me, Uncle Sam I am yours. And, you know, again, life took a strange turn for me. I tried all that summer to figure out what my options were. Could I you know, conscience objection. No, at that point, I had to be a Quaker, a Jehovah's Witness. Do I go to Canada? Do I go to jail? I mean, what the hell do I do? I mean, this was the decision that frankly, every nail of our generation had to confront at some point, Donald Trump had to confront it five times. He got five deferments. SM: 10:02 Wow. Right. DB: 10:44 And that we know what that means is that five other people went in his place. [chuckles] Five other people got drafted as Donald Trump did. But, you know, we they had to make their numbers. And then they needed people to go and basically need to combat troops. And so here I am deciding well, I will take my chances with the draft. And I passed my physical, did not go to law school. And I was going to be drafted in November of 1969. Nixon and who had won the presidency with the previous November with a secret plan to win the war. started the program called Vietnamization, which basically was turning the ground war in Vietnam over to the South Vietnamese army. But escalating the air war. We dropped more tonnage in-in North Vietnam than all of off World War One and World War Two combined. We bombed that country, basically into obliteration, still did not get the result we wanted. But that was that was the plan, bring them to the negotiating table because of the Koreans from the air. But the South Vietnamese die on the ground, but our support, but not our guys dying. And but we still had 400,000 troops in Vietnam, and they needed guys to fight. If I had not gone in the army in November, I probably would not be having this conversation with you right now. What happened for me, it was luck, fate, chance, intervene, Nixon to show Vietnamization was a good thing; it was going to work, canceled November, December draft calls, and set up what he thought was a fair system, which was the lottery, and a lot fairer than, you know, draft boards that could do things at their own will or somebody like you, was mainly staffed by a lot of World War Two vets. And if somebody did not like you, or they thought, you were a bad kid, or they, they wanted to get you out of the community, [laughter] you know, they had that kind of authority. Well, now you have a lottery, and everybody from 18 to 25 has a birthday. All 356 have been thrown into the canister, and they pull out the days, and maybe days and dates. And the day after my birthday was 366. My birthday was 85. But that still gave me even instead of going in November of (19)69, I am going in in March of (19)70, that four or five months there is absolutely critical because we were bringing more troops home, trying to make the Vietnamization work. We were not replacing a lot of the combat troops or some of the rear soldiers. Basically, I think saved my life. But I get in the army. I am at Fort Dix, New Jersey, March 2, 1970. And they align my skills as a writer, journalist, English major, with what a military occupation could be. Because one of the things you need to remember about Vietnam, and I think any conversation you have with any Vietnam vet is what we call the three W's when you were there, where you were, and what you did, that has that basically, essentially, is what defines your experience. So, I am there now (19)70 I saw March, I am drafted and make me an information is a specialist in the army three out of basic, I go to the Army Hometown News Center in Kansas City, which only writes good news but great job. I am not on an army base. I am living in Kansas City. So, I got a great cushy job right out of basic to begin with. Then unfortunately, for computer in Washington says, we need guys like Bradley in Vietnam, and realize this, you are not going over his units. I am not with the guys I was in my platoon with in basic, I did not go to advanced training. There is one thing about Vietnam, that the numbers you went over alone and you came home alone, not unlike the current wars, where you went over as units and stayed together and had that sort of connection and camaraderie. We went over one at a time and came home one at a time, in many ways. So, by October, I am told I am going to Vietnam in November, and then I get there November 1970. And I was there for 365 days told mentors were only 13 months for Marines. And, but if it is true worn out in the rear, I am an Army journalist. I go out and cover stories. I am a combat correspondent as well. But I am editing a paper ready for a magazine, writing memos for the generals living in the air-conditioned jungle. You know, really out of danger. I mean, there was no real safe place in Vietnam because of the kind of war it was. But I am in a bad a safer place as you can be. long been, you know, South Vietnam largest army base in the world at that point. 35,000 soldiers 50 miles northeast of Saigon. I am going into Saigon once or twice a week to work on the paper and have it printed or pick it up from stars and stripes. I have got about as good a job as anybody getting drafted to get SM: 16:46 And you were there with air conditioning too, right? DB: 16:50 We did not have it in the [inaudible] and guard duty or- SM: 16:52 Right. Right. DB: 16:52 -anywhere else. But the generals, the brass wanted it and I worked for the brass. So yeah, that is why we-we did not mind doing 12-hour days because you know, you were you were nice and cool and comfortable. And I hate to say that and sound like I am being callous or less concerned about what my brothers had to deal with in combat, because a lot of them did not make it home a lot. Even after Vietnamization, you know, about 25,000 more of my compadres died in Vietnam, during the Nixon years. So, it was not it was not all, you know, comfort like it was for me. But this is part of what the dynamic the army was dealing with. I mean, then you had you had people who were not, you know, would have been could have been hippies, but at least maybe part of the anti-war movement in the service, you know, they got drafted. So, it was a, it was a real mix of ideologies and perceptions. And, frankly, I think it made for a better army in terms of people questioning orders, or- SM: 18:05 Right. DB: 18:05 -directions or commitments, and meeting people of a variety of different backgrounds. And but yeah, it was a you know, I was just lucky to make it through those wild months relatively intact, and to keep our job was to keep the morale up, but the guys are doing the fight and die. So, we reported that we were killing more of them than they were killing of us, which was true, it become a war of attrition, not a great way to fight a war. But that is what we were doing, that we were winning the hearts and minds of Vietnamese people. We knew that by going into by talking to the Vietnamese or worked in our base or going into Saigon a couple of times. I knew that was happening, but that is what we reported. And the way to boost our morale, to keep up their morale was to give us creature comforts. So, you know, you are- I am in an air-conditioned jungle here. I have got music at my disposal, live radio, reel to reel tape, text cassette, you know, get asked to come to the James Brown comes Vietnam, Johnny Cash comes to Vietnam, Nancy Sinatra comes to Vietnam. So, you know, point being, they understood, I will give them credit for this that the military understood some of what the generation they were dealing with. They did not know that music was important to us. And if they could give us access to music and other creature comforts, you know, to keep us, you know, motivated in the rear. Then we were going to do our job of trying to motivate the guys were out in the field and doing the heavy lifting. SM: 19:42 Now, where are you? Where were you located when you were there? DB: 19:46 I was in Long Binh which was a former rubber plantation, about 15, 20 miles northeast of Saigon. So, I am in what they call three cores. And, you know, they called us REMFs, rear-echelon motherfuckers, you know, we were, we were guys that were in the rear, and we had not cushy because to me realized that if they were to keep this generation still fighting this war, they had to give us creature comforts. Now realize, Steven, the dynamic is that the rule is for about every soldier in the field, there are six or maybe more people supporting him or and now her. So, combat soldier needs, you know, an officer to give them orders, but they also need somebody to make their uniforms, provide their equipment, I mean their weapons, to give area support, to do their food, you know, et cetera, et cetera, write the stories. So, there were more people in the rear of Vietnam than there were in the field. Over the course of that the 3 million that is served from (19)64 to (19)75. About 500,000 combat troops and 202 point 5 million support troops, not the lesson the danger and-and how, you know, I mean, being killed, be killed situations is the-the ultimate, but if there were numbers of us who were having maybe a different experience and a different war, because we were supporting them and we were still having the waters and get our hair pack and watch them light up our mustaches and not wear love beads or give the peace sign, you know. Because some of these guys like me, were getting drafted, you know, a third of the army were draftees. So about 10 million people that served in that era during the Vietnam era, and not everybody of course, was in Vietnam, only 3 million, but you know [inaudible] large percentage of people draft eligible served a third for draftees. Another third, were guys who knew they were going to get drafted. And so, they enlisted. And then the other third were, you know, people who believe in the cause and signed up to do their duty. But that makes for a different mix. And you have people like me who has been at protests, and had some questions and misgivings about the war in the military. It made for a different dynamic than I would say an all-volunteer army does. SM: 22:26 Couple of questions I like to ask you is your general questions not related to the book? I would like to just your general thoughts on your generation, the boomer generation, we know, it was one of the big it was, at the time, the biggest generation in American history. But a lot has been written about the generation in terms of whether it was a positive or a negative generation. I would like your thoughts on what it is like being a Boomer and the positives and negatives of your generation as you think about the past. DB: 22:58 Great question requesting never take not just a lot of thought, but a lot of time, I think to begin to unravel. I would say at the time, when I was growing up, and you know, I am now I am, I am old to be in the Army. I am 22 when I am drafted. And, you know, I wonder, by the time I am home, I was 24. You know, most of the guys that I was in basic training with were 19, 20 years old. And so I was a little older, and I had a college experience. But from where I said, first sitting in college and watching what was going on in the world around me. I felt like people were trying to keep me from getting killed. So I had, I had no problems with the anti-war movement, because I did not think war was good for people. And I did not think it was going to be very good for me, should I have to confront it? So I felt a connection. And I think an optimism about what people were doing. They were not sitting necessarily comfortably, because a lot of folks in that generation for a lot more comfortable than I was growing up. And but they cared about something larger than themselves. It was it was peace. It was justice [inaudible] equality. And that was admirable. And I felt there was at that time, and energy, and just the motivation and the dynamic to our generation. That was that was positive. And I think in some ways it helped to shorten the war. I think in some ways it helps to bring about civil rights. It would be not as quickly or as peacefully as possible, I think started to get better acquainted with sexual orientation issues with sexism. So, at the time, I thought, like, you know, hey, you know, if I am going to live to be 30 people that sort of doubted that the way we had the division in the demographics, and like you said, we were the- we were the elephant in the room. I was helpful, even, even in the dark days of Vietnam, I was hopeful. Things change, you know, and I, you know, it is just interesting to see how, when you think of the forces that were played, and because, you know, I was, you know, I mean, that was my own opinion, I was sitting in my own. But making my own observations have my own experience. There were a lot of folks who were, you know, had a different view of America, and, and exceptionalism and who we were and what we were doing in Vietnam was the right thing to do, etc. And so a couple of things I am going to probably digress, and I will try and really get back to the question and bring it today, in 2022. I think Vietnam was America's second civil war. We, as we know, from things that are going on, in the wake of George Floyd, Black Lives Matter, etc., we are still fighting that war. In many ways, the divisions in the country have not totally healed, famous Vietnam, country was divided. People never came back together. Vietnam vets in many ways with that, folks, that became scapegoats for all that in terms of what went wrong and what went down and Vietnam. And that is, that is a wound that we have not healed either. I think now, we are getting to a place where, you know, who knows, maybe we are not, maybe we are having our third civil war right now. It is quite possible. But like I said, I had hope. And there was, there was some optimism, I get back here. And I just felt like, people were sort of, you know, lackadaisical about what was going on a Vietnam with guys like me, we are dealing with what was going to happen to the country, you know, in the year, then and beyond. And we started to reinvent exactly what happened. And first we escaped go to Tibet, and just said, yeah, we can close this chapter and move on. And these guys, they were not good soldiers. They did horrible things, you know, et cetera, kind of coward, we had me lie. And then I think it just sort of became, yeah, we had the Vietnam syndrome, we were not going to do this again. And then Reagan, and his folks decided to reinvent it, there was a noble cause. We put up the memorial, which is in wonderful thing, the most moving more Memorial, I think, anywhere in the world. But my point is that we, we allowed Vietnam did become rather than, you know, sort of complex and complicated and diverse, still needed to be understood to have dialogue to get some kind of understanding and maybe healing. It was sort of like, it was black and white. There were these people, these, you know, crazy vets and these anti-war nut jobs and non-un-American, and then we had the good people of America, who supported the soldiers and supported the war, believed in God and country, in the city on the hill. And, you know, that is sort of stuck in terms of, you know, reinventing what happened. Meanwhile, you know, as the generation I think we sort of lost track in terms of what we were trying to accomplish. I know for me, you know, you, you got to get a job, you, you if you have a family in need to take care of them. And we sort of went, you know, got focused in on that, and, I think got a little away from at least the stuff that I thought was motivating and stimulating us during the, during the war years. And now, I would say in one, I think as a generation, for not being more vigilant and diligent for not, I think, leaving our kids and our grandkids with a better legacy. We, in many ways, we have we have bear some responsibility for the mess that things are in. And yeah, let us- I would have hoped we would have prevented that. But I got to say, you know, we have done our share, I think to mess things up. And we still got some time maybe to see if we can undo some of that. SM: 30:12 Hey, did you put on the Vietnam Memorial when it opened in (19)82? DB: 30:17 I could not get there. Then I had a, I had a very precocious and busy two-year-old, I was a stay at home dad, when it was not before it was, you know, kind of cool and acceptable. But my wife was, with an attorney, she had a law degree was way more marketable than I was. So when, when our kids when our daughter was born, she went back to work before I did. So I was there working on, you know, not on, we got to get as place but another a couple other pieces I have written about Vietnam, thinking I was going to write the great American novel, or be the, you know, be Tim O'Brien. And so I could not get there in (19)82 to I had some friends who went, and I got there. First time I got there was (19)84. And I made many-many-many trips back to DC. I was just there to give a talk, VA, one of the units in the VA for their annual conference in June, and I went again, and I always find the name of the only soldier in our office, the Information Officer at UCB headquarters who was killed in Vietnam, guy named Steve Warner, who fancied himself Vietnam model of Ernie Pyle the World War Two, great World War Two combat correspondent. And when we invaded people forget after this, of all the ruckus, that there was an there was a lot of it about invading Cambodia. We did the same thing in Laos, in February of 1971. And Steve went up from our office covered the story, stepped on a landmine and was killed. And so I-I visit his name and do a rubbing, every time I am there when I go, and frankly, it is a- it is a wife wish, wishing the last year was a great kid. SM: 32:23 Right. Leadership or lack thereof, often defines the periods we live in during our lives. Now, the boomer is going to look at form for excuse me, five men who ruled this nation back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And that is Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon and Ford. When you listen to the music, and when any of your- the people that you interviewed listen to the music, did you think of these men? DB: 32:57 That is a great question. I do. But maybe it is because I put a historical overview into-into that context. When we were, when we had to sit by me, we were finishing the book. And we, I think what prompted us to finally get done and stop interviewing people was have we realized that some of the folks we had interviewed early on because of exposure to Agent Orange and everything else were dying. So we said we got to get the book out. And we wanted, we wanted to get as big an audience to this as we could. And Craig had had a couple of books published. And he has got a wonderful, yeah, he has done a number of incredible things. But he did, he wrote a book called A Change is Going to Come about Music in America. And so he had an agent, and we-we talked to his agent, the guy at that point was not willing to take us on. So we made some other contacts. And we were, we had an agent in New York, because we want to have this mass market publication. We wanted people to hear the story. And she took it to 20 or 25, publishing houses, and none of them wanted to do this. So we were- gave the book back to us. We went to a university press and they took it in a heartbeat. And of course, it became Rolling Stones, best music book of 2015. But when we were doing that rewrite for UMass Press, and we were we were connecting things somatically in terms of experiences, they said, you know, why do not you do it historically. And start with sort of the, the Utopia the JFK's war, and LBJ's war, and then Nixon's war, and that sort of work. And so, when you mentioned that, I mean, for me and my generation, you could not-not think of JFK and LBJ and Nixon because their decisions influenced and affected our lives in in humongous ways. So I, you know, I think of them. When I when I hear about the Green Berets, which, you know, Barry Sadler wrote, when he was listening to Robert Kennedy dedicate Greenbrae memorial at Fort Bragg, and was being renamed for his brother. So, you know, you hear the songs, you know, Lyndon Johnson told the nation for waist deep in the Big Muddy, you could not-not think of them and then Ohio, and soldiers Nixon coming. So the music, for me, is always connected to those events in those people. But it is also, you know, the music itself is reflective of, of those forces in those dynamics. SM: 35:59 You use this, the animal song we got to get out of this place is the number one song for Vietnam vets. How did you come to that decision that that was the number one song. DB: 36:12 But you know, part of it was that when there were occasionally things, yeah, this is before the internet. And before people got the end of that told you, you know, a lot of Vietnam vets just forgot about Vietnam and went on as best they could with their lives. Of course, many of them could not and did not. But when there were any reunions or get togethers that was a song that was played a lot. And when I thought back to that, I remembered that when we went to an EM club, and again, I am telling you, I am in the rear. So we were getting creature comforts, we have, you know, FM radio 24 hours a day, seven days a week, you know, some good DJs you know, like Adrian Cronouer, and some not so good DJs, but at least you got music, we had reel-reel [inaudible] we had cassette [inaudible], you know, we had music, we had live band in the clubs, you know, Filipino, Korean and Vietnamese could barely speak a word of English, but to get the newest playlist, and they have to play this time. So almost like the last song of the evening, they would play that. And I think it was, you know, the way our tours work was- we did not go over as units, we went over a load, and Marines has 13 months to work. And army had 12 months. So I knew when I got there, that I had the I was lucky enough, you know, to survive, that 365 days later, I was going to get out of Vietnam. So that notion of getting out of that place. But as you remember, for me, at that point, you know, we were leaving, we were turning the ground. Moreover, you know, we were not going to fight the victory we were going to depart. We were going to exit. And so it was just that notion of getting out of there. The lyrics just spoke to that great song, too. And, and then I started noticing it was being played reunions. And not all the guys we interviewed said that, you know, depending on the time you were there, where you were, when you were there, and what you did, your whole experience is different. So there is 3 million Vietnam stories, but more often than not, you know, folks from, you know, across the panoply of all the folks that we interviewed and get this in the book, that was a song that kept coming up and coming up coming up. And the reunions, I have been to the places where I have spoken. And we presented, that is the song that just sort of, you know, seems to capture that era that time and-and what the experience was- SM: 38:57 As you have made reference to, you know, the music was divided into different eras by years. And I am going to talk about first the chapter on Hello, Vietnam, that period from (19)61, to say, (19)65, before the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution. And now, you make really good reference to President Kennedy in this section, because it is about the fact that he gave that historic speech as not what you can do as what you can do for your country. And a lot of the reasons why alarmed the young men and women are joining the military was to serve their nation and give back to your country. And so that is a lot different later on in the war when drafted place. But could you talk a little bit about the people you interviewed or some anecdotes from that period of, you know, some of the songs that were very important that-that ring out in that era? DB: 39:52 Well, I think you put your finger on it. I mean, you know, this dynamic young president yeah, the-the Cold War was hot. And, you know, the-the discourage. You know that that was facing us, like Baghdad's fake fascism from the Germans and the Japanese, it was communism. And we thought, you know, they were coming after us. So, you know, this, it drove into this whole thing with, you know, our dad fought in World War Two did their duty, one war save the world. So now was our turn. And I think a lot of the folks in the cohort to that generation, maybe more my brother's age a little bit older, to saw that as a call. Yeah. I mean, you know, if I got to stand up for something, I am going to do it because that is what that is what Americans do. And, you know, that was reflected a lot in the music. I mean, there was the early stuff that even referenced Vietnam. War songs, like Distant Drums by Jim Reeves. And it is, it is a lot of country songs. You know, Dear Uncle Sam, Loretta Lynn. And it was, it was very reflective Mr. Lonely, Bobby-Bobby Vinton. soldiers, doing their duty but away from home, like soldiers are their home sick and lonesome. And the people at home pining for them and hoping they get back. I mean, it was not, it was not political at the time. And then, as we started to find out more about Vietnam, and you have got Barry McGuire coming on the eve of destruction, and people are getting banned in some stations, and people are saying, what is that, and you know, he always only always that one line in there, the Eastern world is exploding the reference to Vietnam. But, you know, people, you know, the attitude started to change so early, it was, you know, maybe it is like God, love and, you know, apple pie and country. And that began to change, the more people got to understand maybe what was going on the [inaudible], and some of the folk music started to turn very political. You have had things like, you know, Lyndon Johnson told the nation, and Draft Dodger Rag, some of the Dylan music. But you know, it was all there. I mean, we got it all. I mean, even if you were not filtering it through any kind of political, or, you know, military, industrial, you know, context. It was the mus- it was our music, and we knew who Bob Dylan was, we knew who Loretta Lynn was, you know, we knew who Jim Reeves was, we knew. And, you know, who, you know, all the artists were Johnny Cash. I mean, the music was, was exceptionally good. Coming, you know, from all around the world. And it spoke to us whether or not it had a political overlay. And the further you get into our generation, the more pronounced it becomes, in terms of, you know, how vital it was the- our identity. SM: 43:08 You know, it is interesting in that, in that era of John Kennedy, a singer that always comes to mind when he was Lesley Gore, she kept singing all those songs, it was always about boyfriends, girlfriends, dating, love affairs, like, nothing real serious, it was all it was a different era. And then things changed in (19)64, (19)65, with a rival the Beatles, and the Rolling Stones, and, you know, the Turtles and all these other groups. And then, and that is LBJ, and then you get into Nixon, and then you get to psychedelic music, which is, you know, the [inaudible] well, a lot of the groups from them from the Grateful Dead and-and one of the groups that I did not hear in your was Uriah Heep. I do not know if you ever heard of them. DB: 43:59 Oh, yeah. Yeah. SM: 44:00 They were, they were very popular at that time, as were Sugarloaf and the Raspberries and that particular group. So though there was some I was I was actually trying to find songs in the back there that you did not do. But- DB: 44:15 Yeah, well, I and again, you know, as we said, you know, we, at one point, we started out thinking we were going to do a Vietnam that is top 20. And we thought we knew what the top 20 was going to be. And then when we started the, you know, the interviews, we realized that to be a top 200 to 2000, because everybody had their song, you know, you mentioned Leslie Gore. You know, one of the guys we interviewed, you know, and silence was in the field you were always talking about music and where people heard and what they associated with, you know, you had to have silence in the field. So if you were a marine or an army grunt yeah, you were not hearing music, but he had, you know, what was that? Lollipops, and Icicles some [crosstalk] SM: 44:16 Yes-yes. DB: 44:31 [inaudible] Lesley Gore song bounces to say, that was out in the field. He was trying to get it out of attention to it and concentrate. But yeah, you know, we could have had if we did this if we get if we interviewed another four or 500 vets, even some of the folks that have come to our presentations over the years, there is a there is a new song. I remember Chuck Hagel, you have the Secretary of Defense, decorated, he and his two brother Tom, between them at five Purple Hearts. I mean, these guys knew what they were doing. And, you know, when-when I interviewed did a presentation for a symposium that Hagel put on at University of Nebraska. He said his song was, it is a strange, strange world. We live in Master Jack. Oh, yeah. And I was like, wow, you know, that never came up from anybody. But of course, they went back. And we played it for him that night, we were giving the presentation. It was by an Australian group called 4 Jacks and a Jill. And, but for some reason, that song [inaudible]. And so like you said, somebody, you know, we, you know, said that you are right heap of sugar loaf, you know, did it for them? It is, it is again, you know, you know, there are all the voices that are in the book, there is an equal number that just did not make the cut, because of the way the editing and the flow that putting it together. And then there is another whole universe of people who, like I said, who either were there or were not there, but they listen, you know, that have a different song. Every it is a crazy thing. And I think it became even-even more pronounced with-with COVID how music for people was a sanctuary someplace they went. I mean, it was the cry, but was the hope is always the pray. It was the band. But, and that is what it did for us in Vietnam. I mean, we were holding on sometimes by threat, what was good, what the hell was going to happen? Not just the US in Vietnam, but to the country. And there was there was somebody saying something, you know, if it was, come on people, you know, smile on your brother, everybody get together? Got to have one. I mean, whatever it was. And, boy, that is the power of music. And I think that is why not only is this is this book, good in that way. But I think it is because certain music does for us as human beings. SM: 47:45 Right? You, you beautifully put it in, there is talking about the Gulf of Tonkin, (19)64. Now, obviously, you know, that is after Kennedy has been assassinated. But it really is an important period, not only a break in the music, by the breaking what is happening in America, in terms of protests and all the other things, there was protests even early on, in the anti-nuke groups, anti-war groups, even before Kennedy was assassinated, but still, that Gulf of Tonkin, did you put that in? Did you just kind of that was kind of a surprise, when Johnson did that, in that course, we think it was not truthful, to begin with. DB: 48:28 Yeah, well, I think just, you know, I think John would probably [inaudible] day that things happened the way they did, because, you know, I mean, when you think of all the amazing things he accomplished, in the course of his presidency, but, you know, he is always going to be, you know, aligned with the, you know, with them, the escalation of that debacle. But, you know, yeah, I mean, we were looking for an excuse. I mean, and it is this whole thing of what every president from Truman on, was grappling with, and that was, you know, we could not be soft on communism, they want to take over the world, we had no idea you know, I mean, Truman should have known because he man wrote him a letter- SM: 49:18 Right. DB: 49:19 - quoting from our own Constitution and Declaration of Independence, that a communist is not a communist is not a communist, you know, that. You know, people have different views and-and-and different principles and values that we saw monolithic communism is this thing you stop? And I think we were just looking for I mean, yeah, and you know, all the stuff we did, you know, I mean, we, our record is pretty scurrilous, if you look back at the (19)50s, you know, and Iran and the Dominican Republic and Panama, and other places around the world. So, we were, we were doing what we could do to-to be habit our way and Vietnam became this place where, you know, hey, be out there, they were going to try and take over the country. And it was going to be horrible for us. And you know, that goes to all Southeast Asia and that whole domino theory, which was nonsense, but it is sort of culminated there. And, as we know, late react from the history. It was not what it was. But it was an excuse to do something that we thought needs to be done. And of course, it turned out to be one of the ugliest chapters in our history. SM: 50:35 You know, Vietnam vets are very sensitive about the eras that they have served in Vietnam. And I think the one book that came out, really emphasizing this was Phil Caputo's, book, Rumor War. He loved that he was there in (19)65. And he was very sensitive at the time with all the books are being written later in the later on after the war, about everything was (19)67 to (19)71. Well, he said, I was there in 1965. And we were out in the bush, and we could have been killed at any time. And people were dying at that time now in larger numbers, but, and of course, that is the Battle of la Drang Valley, (19)65 and Rolling Thunder and killing of Vietnamese. So there is some truth on how you break it down here, kind of the quietness of the early (19)60s, and then all of a sudden, the Gulf of Tonkin, we were more involved in a war now. And, and then, of course, you have got an author like Phil Caputo, a Vietnam vet, making these kinds of comments. And, of course, we were soldiers, ones by Joe Galloway, and emphasizing what happened at the la Drang Valley in (19)65. So you are right, in tune with the music in terms of some of these [crosstalk] events. DB: 51:49 When I think your point is a [inaudible], and that is that, we always say, really talking about the three W's and we have mentioned that in the book, when you were there, where you were, and what you did, you know, [inaudible] Caputo, you know, you know, combat (19)65 Doug Bradley, in the rear, you know, you know, information specialist, (19)70 and (19)71. And all the 3 million in between, I mean, really, no two stories are alike. And, and I think you no filter. And I think what we need to say we you know, we all answered the same call. We all took the same pledge. And but, you know, it worked it-it manifested itself in different ways. And our lives were forever change. And then what we did with that, once we were back is of course the rest of the story. And but yeah, I think trying to generalize and say well, you know, Vietnam was this a Vietnam was that it diminished. You know, Phil Caputo, from the Doug Bradley from the Tim O’Brien from the Glory Emerson's from, you know, everybody in the Francis Fitzgerald. I mean, there is, you know, there is just a lot to be said, and I think we need to understand that all those experiences are valid. And, and that we there is something to be learned from every one of those. This is- SM: 53:26 Very important in your book, and that is, can you discuss the importance of all types of music and how the word diversity applies to not only those Americans who served in the war, but the types of music they loved and listened to? DB: 53:47 Yeah, and I, you know, that was, that was one of the things that really struck me, in fact, I just had a conversation yesterday with one of the guides, as mentioned the book guide, Melvin Lapesca, who grew up in rural Wisconsin on a farm and he said, they listened to polka, and, you know, his idea of, you know, music was polka music. And he ended up in Vietnam, a medic and a unit that is, you know, half African American, and, and, you know, guys from all over the country, and he starts, he starts listening to the Hendrix and the Chamber's Brothers and the Mamas and the Papas, and his world is turned upside down. And he said that he never would have had that experience and never would have been introduced to those other not only musical cultures, but you know, distinct cultures, you know, African American or, or creole or, you know, Latino from the West Coast if he had not been there and been in the army. And the wonderful thing was on the one hand, that music did a lot to bring us all together and to open up. I am not a country music guy I got through appreciate country music a little bit more, because of the guys that was serving way does not mean I am going to, I am going to like Detroit City by Bobby Bear, I am tired of hearing that song, but it got played all the time. And on the other hand, because of who we are, and the way we were built and, and, and how we function, music at times, would be something that would, you know, be disruptive and would create disharmony. And we have stories in the book to have racism of, you know, of fights over songs on the jukebox, so that cover bands are playing. So, you know, this is the dynamic you are dealing with, and we are still dealing with it, you know, people getting along or not getting along. out in the field, everybody, I think pretty much together combined, does not matter what color you are, back in the rear, a little different. And you know, you got to blow off steam, and maybe you have a little too much to drink or smoke. And it is something he goes out. But I would say more often than not, and on the more positive ledger, you know, the music found ways to connect us to one another, and to introduce us to different aspects of people's lives and their feelings in ways that we probably would not have had happened- SM: 56:25 Yet. And it is so true, because you get having an appreciation for another person's music, beyond the music that you love, is so important about trying to understand people. And getting along. It is, as you bring it up, music, oftentimes over and over was one of the most important things in terms of healing Vietnam veterans from the war, DB: 56:51 Yep-yep. SM: 56:52 Because they identified the music now this could you were entering into this, because this might have may even help what is going on today in our society is having-having an appreciation for another person's religion having an appreciation for other person's paper musically that you do not usually listen to. That is, that is a real positive from the Vietnam War in terms of, even though there was racism going on, and division and everything else like was happening in America at that time. It is the fact that this was one little thing that could bring people together was music. And it can help him healing. DB: 57:28 Yeah, no, it is true. And you know, the-the amazing thing is that this, the science now is showing how that works, you know that they are able to do brain scans. And they know that where memory and music reside in the hippocampus, and wherever it is, that they are right next to each other. So that is why somebody like Tony Bennett, who has Alzheimer's and does not know, could not recognize his wife, some days, his pianist will come in, and he will do a 90-minute set, front and back. And then things go on again. They are finding incredible things for Alzheimer's and dementia patients. But I think it is this notion of, you know, we know that some music has this validity, with memory and connection. But then as they start to look at this, they realize it is not just a morale boost, but it can relieve pain, and it can promote healing. And that is the hospitals some places were doing that during COVID. And I could not agree with you more, and I thank you. I mean, that was the greatest music ever. And it is never going to happen again. Because music was not just a commodity it was, it was art give its expression. It was experience, poetry. But I still think music has that capacity and puts all this music available now, you and our students used to come into our class. Some of them were born in the late 1990s, early 2000s. But they knew the music, they know the Doors they know Hendrix they know the Beatles, they know CCR, they know the Supremes, they know Haggard, they know Cash, they know everybody because they can listen to it all. And it was great and take their connection to that awareness of a song to a veteran's experience, and then maybe explain a little bit about the era and war. Music and music is a wonderful way to do that. I could not agree more with what you said. And I just wish we could practice it for I mean, if I mean I have not listened to it, but if Taylor Swift's new album is-is speaking about things that are universal, and people could let us listen to her, you know. I will listen to Kanye West anymore. I am sorry, but my kids did when he was you know, I remember you know, when-when he was coming on the scene and they you know, they were fascinated with him and his message Late Registration; they used to play that song, I got tired to hear it. But and I could not understand some lyrics but they were telling me what he was talking about. You know, we, we need to find ways to bring people together. And I think music is one of the best ways to do that. That is what I think still with our presentations, man know the audiences are self-selecting. But you know, we will have next year we will have antiwar folk, some anti-war movement from that era. But modern-day soldiers will have kids and spouses and all, and use it as a tendency to just calm everybody down to get respectful there in the moment, not judgmental. At God. I mean, do not we need that? SM: 59:38 Yes-yes. We do. I think that the section we talked about the Nixon year is very important to I have read enough books to on Vietnam to see that when they start talking, they generalize about all Vietnam veterans, it really upsets me because they talk about, you know, a lot of the veterans well- a lot of work, or maybe the majority were welcomed when they came home. And certainly, the Wall was the first time many people felt that they were welcomed in 1982 as a group in Washington, but that period during Nixon was certainly a very troubling time. I know the music kind of expressed it via the Grateful Dead and Creedence Clearwater and Grand Funk Railroad, the Doors those groups, they kind of it was, it was great music but because see attention within the music, the Grateful Dead performed here at Binghamton University, and on May 2 of 1970, two days before Kent State. And one of the commentaries in the newspaper was that the Grateful Dead considered this one of their five greatest concerts ever. And secondly, you could see the tension in the audience and in the music on stage, but Vietnam [inaudible] you bring it up about the-the increasing on drugs. The certainly protests were at their all-time high Black Power was coming in debt changing, challenging, deprecate philosophy and non-violence. And there is a lot of fragging going on. So this is in the music, you can see it in the music. Can you talk a little bit about that latter part of the (19)60s and early (19)70s when this was happening? DB: 1:02:17 Yeah. And if we got something to catch up on, after I say that I had sent you an email earlier, we are in the process of moving and I need to meet with some of the movers here in a little while. So I will answer that. And I will be glad to talk again, as you can tell, I like to talk at any time about anything else you want to cover. But I think, you know, pick a cacophony of not only the musical sound, but of the social turmoil, all got all caught up in that era out whether or not that would happen, regardless of Cambodia invasion and Kent State, who knows, but I think it was building toward that. And as you put it, and you know, even-even with the debt, who did not come up a lot in conversations with that-that we talked to, they were guys from the coast, of course, we talk about them a lot. But, you know, that was the sound that was particular to a place and a time. And people had not gotten as much I think into being deadheads, at least the folks that we talked to in the book, but the music represented this thing, you know, that it was sort of a tipping point. And where was all this going to go? Guys like Hendrix, if you listen, and he has got a song called Machine Gun. You know, that. I mean, and if you listen to his Woodstock version of the Star-Spangled Banner, everything is in there, helicopters, missiles, guns, you know, call to arms, you know, rescue, it is, it is all there. It is all there in purple haze, too. So, it is, it is just that we had hit a place where I think something had to give, and music was right at that fulcrum. And, you know, I am even [inaudible]. I mean, you know, Okie from Muskogee, and, you know, you know, some of the other stuff that he wrote after that, everybody responded and reacted. And if it was anti-anti-war, if it was anti Nixon, if it was, you know, give peace a chance. Everything became a flexion point. And music was, I think, like I said, was the seminal part of that. Why that was, I think it was the times I think it was the way the industry was, I think it was the way the politics were. But, you know, and but, you know, I listened to War by Edwin Starr. We sing, you know, Woodstock and, and we saw the movie at the theater in Vietnam, you know that. And we had to we had to leave the theater because we were getting rocketed. You know, this is the craziness of that time. And it is, it is all caught up in the music and I do not know how better to say it. I do not know how better to explain it. But it was, It was there at every pivotal point. And it is for a lot of us. It is still there. We need it. SM: 1:05:33 Quick question I have is when you flew over, were there other people with you that were going into the military? DB: 1:05:43 Oh, yeah. When- SM: 1:05:45 How many were in the plane that were you? Were you How many were there? DB: 1:05:49 You go. It is like amazing. It is like a cattle call. You go to Fort Travis, Travis Air Force Base, that we fly into San Francisco, my best friend, my best friend who was my best friend to this day, George Moriarty. He and I were the only hometown [inaudible] center together. And then we ended up in the same office in Vietnam. We showed up at Travis Air Force Base together, George got called out of the first manifest first. When they called us, they brought everybody out. And George was on the first one, the first plane to go to Vietnam. I sat around Travis doing [inaudible] work for a few days. It seemed like an eternity. And a week later, I go to Vietnam. It is just the way the computers worked and replace this is Robert McNamara incarnate. You know, running numbers, Running IBM cards through a computer with different MOS is in different locations. And again, you know, there were guys with my MOS like that is military occupational specialty. Who were you know, up on the DMZ. I ended up being you know, in the air-conditioned jungle again, just-just luck, but Georgia and I ended up there together. And they call you out in the field on the manifests you going on the plane. So we flew Scandinavian Airlines from California to Anchorage, Alaska, from Alaska, to Japan, and from Japan to Vietnam, longest and most painful flight I have ever been on. And I guess there must have been 150 to 200 GIs all of us going to Vietnam to Long Binh base right outside Saigon. SM: 1:07:31 I got the one question I want to have you about all those counters you had at Bentley was the number one song, In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida. DB: 1:07:38 [laughter] The funny thing was, that was later and you know, that was very popular on a pirate radio show by a guy named Dave Rabbit who [inaudible] show that is a that is another whole story of his you should follow sometimes it was called Radio First Termer. But you know, and of course the act was the guy passed out in the concert and everybody thought people that did not know that the iron butterfly stick, or you know what they did on stage it was like the who burning smashing the guitar. They really thought this guy had passed out, you know, the drummer, but, you know, I you know, I got to honestly, I got to say, there were other better moments and I do think probably the high point was you know, Surrealistic Pillow that basically playing the Hole and Chris Grace Slick then, I meet her in 1967. SM: 1:08:36 Wow. DB: 1:08:36 Holy shit. Hair was down. You know, it is all Mr. Nice. Gorgeous looking young. I never seen a woman like this. And she was the first woman I ever heard say Fuck, yeah. It was love at first sight. With Grace Slick. SM: 1:08:53 We do not- it is interesting Binghamton University. It was called Harper College, SUNY Binghamton at the time, when I was here. I was here (19)67 to (19)70. We had the Chamber's Brothers we had Iron Butterfly. We had Lovin' Spoonful, we had the Turtles we had- DB: 1:09:12 We had the Turtles too I forgot to mention [crosstalk] SM: 1:09:13 -the Arlo Guthrie we had we had. I want I know that. Let us see. We also had Duke Ellington and Ella Fitzgerald, because jazz is very popular Binghamton. DB: 1:09:14 Yep. [crosstalk] SM: 1:09:15 And we had [crosstalk] Mountain. DB: 1:09:29 We can do this back. And that is the thing. This is that your you know, and look at, look at what you are saying you are going from psychedelic, you know, real electronic. I mean, a Spoonful could be you did a bunch of different stuff. They could be folk that could be rock. SM: 1:09:45 Right. DB: 1:09:45 They could be soft rock. You know, the Chambers Brothers. I mean, that this was the first before Hendrix was the first African American group that was psychedelic. Your time has come today. So, you know, I think what you are saying is you are you are exposed to that. I am lucky I am in this oasis in a desert in West Virginia, exposing a bunch of kids in Wheeling and Wellsburg. And Bethany, to this is happening all over the country. These-these acts wanted to be in front of audiences, they wanted to be in front of kids, you know, that they knew the sound resonated with and spoke to because the music did. And they were not as hung up on, you know, they had to get, you know, 50 percent of, you know, 70,000 tickets now, they wanted upfront money, and they wanted to come and perform, and that is what we were able to do at Bethany, you probably did in Binghamton, you could probably get a bigger audience. But yeah, we all had all this music is literally in front of us, which I think was, you know, another defining thing for our generation. SM: 1:10:49 On May 2 1970, we had the Grateful Dead in the band. So, yeah, and then-then. DB: 1:10:57 A person, person that could not [inaudible] [crosstalk]. SM: 1:10:59 Yeah, and the person kept coming in from New York was Paul Butterfield. He was very popular here. DB: 1:11:04 Yeah, I love- I saw Paul Butterfield in Spokane, Washington. SM: 1:11:10 Unbelievable concerts we had, one of the questions I want to ask also is did you ever think about the generation you belong to? I know when you are young, and you know, you hear the stories about, you know, the biggest generation in American history after the war. You know, so many kids are being born Art Linkletter had his TV show, you know, kid about kids and everything. But did you ever think of yourself? I am a part of something different? Not just not just size, but for me, it was when I got to [inaudible] college. DB: 1:11:45 Yeah, no, I did. And I think I never put it in terms of, you know, the baby boomer generation, until college. But I always felt that when I was younger, my brother and I were listening to, you know, Over the Mountain, Across the Sea, by Johnny and Joe, in a bar, upstairs bedroom, and my parents hollering for us to keep it down, and then could not understand what two black people were doing up in our bedroom, having a conversation about falling in love. You know, and then you had Elvis and Little Richard and Sam Cooke. And, you know, and on and on, even had Pat Boone, Fats Domino, but, you know, I started to feel different, we were different than they were because of our music. And then we started to be different than they were because of our outlook, and because of our lifestyle, because of our hair because of our cars. You know, so, and then I did not realize what that difference meant. Or if it would I, you know, began to articulate it, until I started to realize that I was this generation that JFK challenge to, you know, do ask not what they could do, you know, because you could do for them, but what we could do for the country. I mean, that was sort of our ethos. We all grew up with that. SM: 1:12:59 Right. DB: 1:12:59 Sons of World War Two dads, sons and daughters of World War Two dads gave the world we got to do that. But then I started to feel like, we were not just different because of that call, we were different because of who we were, what we were listening to what we were questioning. And, yeah, I, I felt that very much through college and in the army, particularly. Because this is these are the guys who are doing the fighting and dying. SM: 1:13:24 And you know, it is amazing. And I will get back to questions. But I started feeling it when I was a college at SUNY Binghamton. Man, what a great time to be alive, even though we were going through hell with a lot of the issues in the world with the Vietnam War, and certainly the civil rights issues and all the movements that we were evolving. And seeing a lot of the injustice has been going on for an awful long time, even when we were little kids in the 1950s. But, you know, it was just a feeling Wow, it is great to be young. And [crosstalk] I could not explain it any better. It is just a feeling. DB: 1:14:03 No-no, I did. And, and it was it was something that was expressed in the music that we listen to and grouped around. I mean, regardless of your taste, I mean, you know, I want to hear the stones in the Supremes, you know, and maybe the Chambers Brothers, well, they did not get much of an am radio, but you know, somebody else wants to hear, you know, Little Green Apples or Patches, but, you know, we were all hearing the same stuff. Yeah, they can like what they like I could, but we were and you know, a lot of a lot of what was going on like that that distinction-distinction, as you were feeling was articulated by the music. SM: 1:14:40 You know, your books all about and we are going to get back to it and Vietnam-Vietnam veterans and the music of the war and everything, but there were a lot of people that were not veterans and did not serve. And I for one, I just wanted to list there were six songs that really stood out for me, that I can pinpoint in here. and hear the tune. And I can remember exactly where I was when I heard it and one of them is Time by the Chambers Brothers, because of the concert of Binghamton University, it was unique. It was a happening. Remember that word happening? DB: 1:15:13 Yep, oh yeah, oh yeah. SM: 1:15:13 Everything was happening. And then I remember right and when my parents when we went to every Saturday down to Binghamton and hearing Bobby Vinton sing Blue Velvet. I remember that song. And then Richard Harris MacArthur Park was very important around here. Binghamton Cornell University, Ithaca College Binghamton students, a lot of them went to Stewart Park. So the, the Richard Harris song, and then My Father, the Judy Collins song, which is so different. And of course, Mamas Mamas and the Papas California dream. And that is why I went to California for a while. So, you know, you really hit it, not only for people who, who were in Vietnam, but people who are not in Vietnam. It is, it is all part of our lives. I have a question too, about the Wall. This is the 40th anniversary of the Wall this year. And I could not believe it has been that long. And that happened on November 11 of 1982. That what is your what are your thoughts on the Wall? Usually, you have been to the Wall, probably. But if you did. DB: 1:16:08 Yes-yes. SM: 1:16:12 What was when you walked there for the first time and you saw it, but then you saw your reflection? What were you thinking? DB: 1:16:29 I was thinking I could be in and out the Wall that you know, there, but for the grace of God, you know, that do not say, and again, explain to you that, you know, rolling the dice getting drafted. And I mean, being having the capacity to do what they wanted to do with me. I could have been in there. And so you see yourself in there. And one of the-the only the only combat correspondent information specialist from our office, who was killed in Vietnam, was a colleague of mine, a guy that that I served with there, and he is on the Wall. And that could I right away. I think that could be the next the Warren Z Warner could be looking at Doug Bradley's name on that Wall. I think all the controversy that was standing, and maybe some people still do not, do not like it. But I think that is all changed. But you remember all the controversy? SM: 1:18:16 Yeah, it is unbelievable. I mean, down there on in a couple of- about a week now for the dreams and on the 40th anniversary. Just have you heal from the war? And do you feel and then you teach this co teach this course with a professor who teaches, I think African and African American history? And I would be curious about what his thoughts might be too, because you have written an unbelievable book. I think it is a historic book. I think it is a it should be required reading in any course on the (19)60s. But hidden [inaudible] to you and your peer, your co-author, he [inaudible] for. DB: 1:18:57 I think, in some ways, yes. I-Craig knows that. His experience was he was in he, what they did was they did when you when you are number came up for that year in the lottery. That is the number you kept so years after that, they might only take a specific age group and do it for that year and, and then tickets specific age group for the next year. So, in other words, he-he knows he could have gone to Vietnam, but he had a good lottery number after 1969 because he is a little younger, and he did not go. But he grew up in Fort Carson, Colorado, and he used to play in a rock band that played in the Air Force academies out there too. So he was playing a lot of music for guys who had been older and come home or that were home and going over. And he-he knew, I think at a young age of what soldiers were doing with who was doing fighting, dying, you know, fortunate son was not, it was not the Senator's son. It was not the millionaire's son. was not a politician that, you know, it was it was the kids, you know that were working at the gas stations in the supermarkets or dropped out of school or whatever. And that gave Craig an awareness. And I think he is grateful for that. And he also he, I think he understood, again, the good luck and good fortune that he had. And the wonderful thing about him, this is one of the brightest guys I know. But when he became, he got degrees in English, from Champaign, Urbana, Illinois, but he very early first teaching degree at University of Mississippi, and his-his roommate down there was a shared a home with-with housework with African Americans. And he grew in awareness of the, of the power of music, gospel, soul blues, in and for people of color. That changed his whole approach to the teaching in the direction when do we got an Afro American Studies became chair of Afro American Studies, Madison, I believe, was probably, at the time, the only white chair of an Afro American Studies Department anywhere. And, you know, because of who he was, and, and not only, you know, his scholarship, but also his teaching and, and reaching out. And I think for Craig yeah, he has always said, one of the things he always says on a presentation is Vietnam vets have kept me sane, meaning, he was not the kind of guy that could enjoy and [inaudible] the politics of higher education, that schmoozing the game playing. You know, the committee's that some of the crap that goes on and then that the political and I love higher education, but he was not, he was not attuned to that. And so he used to hang out with us other Vietnam vets, you know, we had a writing group, we did put out a magazine at our own expense called The Deadly Writers Patrol. And Craig did a lot of this, I think, is a way not just for penance. You know, like, I was lucky they, but also because he believed that Vietnam vets had not gotten a fair shake and needed to heal, and writing and music are ways to do that healing. So and I can say that for me, too. I am, you know, even though I was in the rear and was not in combat, I think 12 months in a warzone, can screw you up a little bit. I think I had a mild case of PTSD when I came home. And, and I, you know, I did my graduate work, I focused on stuff that was related to Vietnam, even though it was just getting a master's in English. When I got to Madison, I helped set up a place called vets house, which was a community-based service center. It was basically vets helping vets because nobody was helping us. So I was trying to do what I could to help guys that had not had the advantages I did. And then, of course, the book, and I still do presentations around the state and around the country. I was in DC. In June, I am doing a thing here. I did a couple of things here in September, I am doing something here in November. I am teaching a class in Arizona, in November in January, it is just I could not stop because I think there are people that still need to come home. And this is a way to get them back home. I-I know more than one veteran that I have that we have interviewed that I believe in sitting down with us and telling a story about the power of a song, like you talking about, you know, maybe Judy Collins or the Chamber's Brothers, when they tell that that that that is not in all cases, but in a lot of cases. That was that was when that veteran got back home. At that is, you know [crosstalk] SM: 1:23:45 What is really great about the music of this era, is the fact that you can listen to the words, you can hear the words. You know, I know through all the different timeframes, certainly, and we got into the (19)80s and the (19)90s. And some of the rock groups, you just hear noise, you do not hear the words. The words had such an important effect on anyone who was listening to it. I mean, it is just like, wow, it is like a wakeup call. But it is also a brief emotion to you. Just like hundreds of the songs, and I have even gone on the web and looked at songs under a country western and then I will look at rhythm of blues and soul and even disco. There is something in every era about the (19)60s and the (19)70s. And there is words you can learn from them. Your book is done tremendous service because it is not only about healing Vietnam vets. It is also about healing non-Vietnam vets who lived in this same time and it is helping us heal as-as a people and as a nation during this very difficult time in our history. DB: 1:25:00 I could not agree more. And we need more of it, we could use that a little bit of that now. SM: 1:25:05 I agree. DB: 1:25:05 And I think, you know, and as you know, we both know, there is still work to be done on both fronts both then and now. And I, I find that I know, our audience is a self-selecting, but not everybody that comes there, you know, comes there to be healed or saved, they probably did not use a word like that-that they were- SM: 1:25:08 Right. DB: 1:25:24 -intimating that they were broken or something. But, you know, the audience is, you know, this is people who participate in people who protested, these are folks to stay, hope to serve, and the music grounds them, it is, it is honest, it is authentic. It and people are respectful, they listen. And I think they find ways to, to form a bond, like you said, whether you were there or not, we all had the same music, we- SM: 1:25:53 Yep. DB: 1:25:53 -had some of the same experience. And we all I think we [inaudible] need a little love in our hearts. SM: 1:26:00 When I asked that question about what everybody thinks about when they go to the-the Wall the first time or, you know, anytime they go to the Wall. I think I have always said there are two heroes during this period is those who serve their nation in the military, number one. And number two are the anti-war people who are honest and sincerely interested in ending the war to bring our men and women back for more so they would not die. And, and I still think I in I know, there was a lot great division between the pro war and anti-war period in time, the hard hats in New York City and all that other stuff. But when it comes down to it, who was generally honest about their feelings about saving human lives, and-and in some of the anti-war, people that have gone to the Wall, not only see Vietnam, veterans on that Wall, they see Vietnamese people on that Wall, because two to 3 million people die in that war from Vietnam, and Cambodia and Laos. So, it is care about them to [crosstalk] DB: 1:27:05 -know that I think that is, that is exactly right. And I, you know, it is too bad that I think in the way we have polarized and sort of demonize the both the era, and especially folks who are anti-war, as done us a disservice, because there were people who genuinely and for and I have met many of them, who fervently believe that war was not a good thing that we were, you know, committed some major atrocities and destroying a culture in a nation over there. And for not the right reasons and they wanted to save lives and save their lives. And, but we made it seem like they spent on soldiers, and they hated them, and they disrespected them. And they did not, you know, the people that I linked arms with, when I got home and a few even before I went over, I thought were people who genuinely wanted to keep me safe. SM: 1:27:06 Yep. DB: 1:27:06 And I, you know, I-I am all for that. And it was too bad that you know, it has become the guys that fought whether it was a noble cause they could have won if they would have fought the war properly, and done it differently. And now they came home and everybody shit on him. And that is not that is not the case. It is not that easy. It is not that simple. It is not that black and white. But that is how we have basically allowed some historians and some presidents to explain that era. And I think it does us a disservice. It keeps us divided. SM: 1:28:36 I agree. DB: 1:28:37 Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, absolutely true. And it happened. I mean, you know, they could control the airwaves, but they could not control ears. [laughs] And so um, yeah, you were not going to play. You know, Happiness is a Warm Gun. You were not even going to listen to for time they did not [inaudible] guy to have his place played, you will have [inaudible] DJs? Talk about that song being on the non-playlist, never ever Eve of Destruction by Barry McGuire. Movie, Do not Take Your Love to Town because the guy shoots his girlfriend, you know, that was based on a Korean War story, but you know it but he thought it was about Vietnam and you know, you could not have somebody you know, Scott has done that his legs and he shoots his girlfriend. I mean, it is like, you know, it is yeah, that is just but we still heard the songs. You know, we could get music and other ways. People from home would send us stuff. There were pirate radio stations there were pirate DJs Dave rabbit, and on a show called Radio First Termer or being the-the ultimate in your face to the army. But other guys did that some of the [inaudible] it just play songs that they would not play on AFEN, um when they had when they would play music in some of us [inaudible] clubs and sometimes even on the some of the some of the bands and the radio dials and the radio headsets and transmitters in Vietnam. We could get all that music so you were not play you with a little help from my friends when I was there because Spiro Agnew said it was a drug song. We can all listen to, you know, we can listen to war by Edwin Starr. Yeah. I mean, we sort of laughed about in Vietnam, it is like, well, okay, yeah, it is not good for anything. But what is that going to do for us? They are going to get home any sooner. But yeah, I mean, I, we interviewed a lot of AFEN DJs for the book, because like I said, their job was to keep the morale up like [inaudible], kindred spirits, in a way and knew we had to do some things and sometimes bide our time. But they did a good job. They did. Many of them did the best job they could, and they cared about the guys out in the field. And but they did sometimes have constraints put on it like we did. I could not like what I was seeing. Am I going to, am I going to write about, you know, you know, when our base gets attacked in, you know, because near the elections in- Viet Cong basically showing us who is in charge, because they do not want President [inaudible] reelected, [inaudible] the election? I will pick it or write that story, but it happened. I saw it. SM: 1:30:00 You also, you mentioned this, the most there were two very important items for all veterans, our Vietnam vets, and that one was their gun. And number two was their radio. And, and you-you did a great job in the book of talking about you know, they were not carrying these radios around in the jungle. You know, you did not they were not sure they did not have any in la the Drang Valley, you know. DB: 1:32:29 No-no. SM: 1:32:31 So, because you can be heard, but you made a good point in talking about that, that the combat troops themselves. But it was only when they got back, not when they were out in the field. DB: 1:33:09 Absolutely. We got an army of a couple segments in there. As you know, we have solos in the book because we just wanted the whole point was to get out of the way of other voices is some of the people guys like Bill Hardin, and Bill [inaudible], and Art Flowers and Phil Kristofferson, and Gordon Fowler, who are writers and musicians have their own ways poets, said, you know, can I write my own piece, and you guys can edit if you want, but I want to, I want to write what my song experiences. Bill has one where, you know, somebody, they call it the bullshit band. And it was, it was what part of the radio dial, when, you know, troops had to be alerted to area or they were checking within the perimeter and guard duty. And somebody got on that band and started to play music. And here was a bunch of guys and Marines up in on the DMZ in combat boots dancing to the letter by the box tops, you know, [inaudible]. SM: 1:34:00 Right. DB: 1:34:02 And so, yeah, I mean, it was the music was-was that essential and important and to us, and you know, we found ways you know, whether you had a rifle or not, and again, silence in the field, but here are these guys are not back in the rear yet. They were just not out in combat, and they were listening to their music. And when they go back out the next day, you know, silence is going to keep you safe. But you might have a song playing in your head and we had guys tell us stories about that too. You know, trying to get really bad Lesley Gore song, Sunshine, Lollipops and Roses out of your head, because it was your girlfriend's favorite song, but I do not really think about that. Now when I got to see if there is anybody out there trying to shoot. SM: 1:34:48 I want to mention too that you have heard Have you heard the song the Wall by John McDermott? DB: 1:34:55 I have. Yep. SM: 1:34:56 Well, I did not realize he said one of the Irish tenors of course. And he-he has been doing concerts all over the country. And he gives it to local VA, Vietnam veteran chapters. He was just he was just unbelievable. And he was, he was saying at the Wall, maybe 10 years ago, and he did a, you know, 30 minutes before the opening for Memorial Day. And I was sitting next to a gold star Mother, I will never forget it. And she says to me, you see the Wall over there be your behinds shoulder? Yes. My son's name is on that little part of the Wall. And that is a memory I will never forget, she was a gold star mother. So it really touches you. And of course, he deeply cares about veterans. You talk also about the very important section in your book toward the back is the story about Bobby Muller and Bruce Springsteen, could you talk about that? Yeah, I know, Bobby. He was at my retirement. And- DB: 1:35:58 Oh, my gosh, I love Bobby and, you know, talk about a guy that gave everything he could to the cause both giving part of his body away to the war itself. And then what he did afterwards, and I, you know, it was such an amazing moment, because you were talking about the concerts, but now called the concert for the Vietnam vet 1981. And Bruce has been around for a few years, he has gotten some traction is a new Bob Dylan. He was the new hit and but he basically was still a musician, and, you know, played his music and got you energized his audiences, but did not talk about politics, or war, or service or anything like that. And that night, when at- Muller's insistence, and some of the other organizers of the concert, had the perimeter of the stage proper, not the larger part of the audience. Wheelchair accessible and had nothing but Vietnam vets, mainly most of them moved to Vietnam vets around at that stage, that that was the night but Springsteen came out from behind the curtain and he [inaudible], you know, he-he was so moved by that. And he knew that could have been him. It was again, that moment that we talked about. And I have talked about, you know, growing up hardscrabble, the way Bruce did, you know, probably first drummer, Bart Haynes was killed in Vietnam. He knew it was it was it was working class kids like himself and his buddies, who went over there. That is what John Fogarty and CCR knew too, could have been. It could have been him. And having this moment where he was taking all that in. And, and then he, he decides to sing, Who Stopped the Rain? And Muller, I think just, you know, captured that when he talked us about it. He is still, I think if he almost levitates, when-when he does, because he knew that was not just a great moment for Bruce. And it was, but it was a wonderful moment for Vietnam vets. Because then Bruce, you know, Born in the USA, came partly out of that experience. And he stood up for that and did things for-for Bobby's organization, and for others. And he is still doing I mean, and he, I think, maybe always had [inaudible], but he-he brought that out that night and that concert, and I think Bobby captured beautifully in the book. SM: 1:36:02 You talk about the fact that the Vietnam Veterans of America was might be going under without the support of that concert- DB: 1:38:36 Correct. SM: 1:38:37 -that was put together. DB: 1:38:37 Exactly [crosstalk] SM: 1:38:38 And then of course, the other artists start doing concerts for them. DB: 1:38:41 Yep, that is what Bobby would tell you. For sure. SM: 1:38:44 Yeah, I said, I think it is a great part. And it leads into some very good sections in the book too. What is the main What is the main? My question, what is the main message you want future students, faculty and national scholars to know about the purpose of your book, your top your top conclusion after writing your book? Because- DB: 1:39:11 I think, I think there is a few things I think one is music is where memory lives. And I think as you articulated with your quick six songs playlist, and I bet if we talked longer, you would have 60 or 600. SM: 1:39:27 Probably. [laughs] DB: 1:39:28 You know, it is, it-it-it sort of kind of soundtracks our lives and it-it is pain, its joy, it is, it is happiness, it is sorrow, it is everything but it is, it is where align and they found this now through the research and science if they can do with brain scans. It is it is where memories resides right next to music. And that combination I think is-is powerful. I and I think they would even we were talking to people 30, 40 or more years removed from that experience, a song, and a moment could bring everything back. And, and so that is one. The other is that it is a way it is a way to heal. And I do not mean everybody is broken. I think everybody needs to have a little peace and tranquility, and, and hope in their lives. And I think, I think that is the other thing the music did for a lot of these guys. As I said, there is some people we talked to Neil Hoxie, the guy that gave the story about we got to get out of it. I mean, about feel like I am [inaudible]. When he told that story that night to me in his daughter was in his home. I knew that was the night he got back from Vietnam. 45 years after he left. Music it can do that. It can do it for us now. And I think the other thing is, it is never too late to try and bring a soldier and a veteran home. You know, the current vets do not have the music, we the way we had it, they do not have music. And they have their own soundtracks, their own headsets. It is not a shared communal experience. But music is still do that for them, whether it is their music, or whether it is ours, [inaudible] era. And it is we got a lot of work to do, because this generation of men and women, who are now have now become they have surpassed us because so many of us are dying. It is the largest generation of veterans post 911 vets in the country. Now no longer Vietnam vets, and they need, they need to heal, they need to get home. They need to have America there for them. And so, whether it is music, whether it is writing, whether it is you know, dog therapy, whether it is horses, whether it is, you know, nature, we have to we have to continue to work on bringing people home. And frankly, one of the best ways to do that is to stop waging wars that, you know, are in our best interest and frankly, are winnable. SM: 1:42:00 Yeah, that is something I have noticed. I have gone to the Vietnam Memorial ever since I first met Louis Poehler back in (19)93, and I tried to go every year, I have only missed a couple years for Memorial Day and Veterans Day, and I am not a veteran, I feel I must be there. But it is Vietnam veterans have done so many things in terms of when you consider what happened in (19)92. And they were kind of welcomed home for the first time. But they constantly talk about at these events, the importance of caring about those veterans who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan or the Gulf War or any of our, you know, small skirmishes around the world. And so that what happened to us never happens to them. DB: 1:42:47 Yep-yep. And [crosstalk] go ahead. SM: 1:42:54 Certainly, the building of the Wall. Look what look, look what happened after that the World War Two Memorial, the Korean Memorial. And I knew Jan Scruggs is somewhat involved with a group now doing something for Iraq and Afghanistan vets to never forget what they did. Who have taken the lead here. It is Vietnam vets. DB: 1:43:17 Yep-yep. No, I hear you. And, you know, I think, you know, I think CCR was the first group to sort of put it right. And you know, two of them, one of them the Coast Guard, one was in John Ford, he himself was in the, you know, the guard, he could have been activated could have gone a different way. They understood who was fighting, they were the ones that said, you can disagree with the war, but you can support the soldier. Because, you know, for lack of, you know, different situations, it could be you and yeah, I think, I think that is what Vietnam vets got. It is I am not one of those guys that is going to parade around in my uniform, or, you know. SM: 1:43:59 Right. DB: 1:43:59 Memorabilia or anything, and say, you know, somebody spit on me, but I am going to say, you know, shame on you, America for not finding ways to bring us home. You know, other cultures did it, you know, and you look at Native American vets, we have a lot of them in the book, they talk about water rituals, the whole tribe brings you back and helps you to heal. We could have done that as a country because we lost more Vietnam vets after the war, whose names are not on the Wall, to, you know, suicide or agent orange, car wreck, you know, you name it, because they could not get home. They could not make the transition. They were not welcome. They were not cared for. those lives could have saved and there is still lives to be saved. So, we got to do. SM: 1:44:45 Your I know, you said to probably be 600 that I would do but I bet you probably do 600 too. But I want to ask you, Doug, if you could list fives tunes that stand out to you and when you list them what memory comes back? Where were you? Or how when you first heard it or just-just five? DB: 1:45:08 Wow. [laughs] Only five? SM: 1:45:11 Yep. DB: 1:45:12 Okay, well, let us see why that is a great question. Of course, we got to get out of this place has to be on the list because, you know, I was in an EM club. And, you know, enlisted men, you know, in Vietnam, there was a Korean band who were doing a great playlist every day, from country to, to the Doors to Motown, James Brown, they had a guy singing lead, that was really good, and a couple of really cute girls. But man, when they did was that to get out of this place, you know, we all joined arms, put our arms around one another, and sang and sang it with [inaudible] at the top of our lungs. And so, you know, anytime I hear that song, I am like back there. And all the places I have been ever since because we play at all the presentations we do. So that is, you know, that is got to be on the list. Boy, this is a really good question, because there are so many of them. By you know, I got to put what was going on in there too. Because when we started to interview guys, and talk to them about, about the book and interview, and it was not just African American soldiers, we realized that Marvin Gaye had done something really powerful. And what we did not realize it basically, a lot of that had to do with the experience of his brother, Frankie Gaye, who was in Vietnam, and did not have the same kind of luck that Marvin did. And that that song, if you listen to it, if you listen to the album, is really about what a black veteran like Frankie Gaye is facing when he comes home, because the songs never ending start with what was going on. And you go to What's Happening Brother, and Fly the Friendly Skies and Save the Children and Mercy Mercy Me and Wholy holy, you go all the way through and the last song, Inner City Blues, you know, the last lyrics of that, or the, or the first lyrics of what is going on. So, you are going to loop and loop you are in is the kind of loop that Frankie and a lot of Vietnam vets were, and that is, you know, what is going to happen? Is America going to be there for me is-is-is my country going to be there for me? Am I going to make it? Am I going to do drugs? Am I going to stay alive? I get to, you know, what am I what is going to happen? And I think that is that, you know, that when I listened to that now, and Art Flowers does an incredible piece in our book about that, that, you know, that is, that is what it, that is what it is. I mean, it is so it is so powerful. So that is, that is another one that is got to be at the top of the list. I got to think some more here. Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. I mean, it is, it is such a big list. But those are great ones to go through. I think. Probably, like a Rolling Stones band another one for me, because it came out in 1965 when I was graduating from high school, going to college, maybe first generation, you know, my whole life was ahead of me. And, you know, I knew who Dylan was, but I never heard him like that. And there was something about that summer (19)65 I remember either listening to that, or Satisfaction, it seems like those were the songs I heard all summer. And that whole thing of, you know, has a field, you know, to be on your own, like a complete unknown. I mean, what what-what is going to happen, the kind of questions the kind of images, the kind of searching, the kind of wondering, I think, probably, you know, forever sort of footnoted that period of my life for me. You know, Firing Rain, strangely enough. You know, I was in basic training, and there was a guy that would get up every morning, he had a wonderful voice, chubby guy, recording Big Fat Bob, and I did not want to learn his last name, because I did not want to find that on the Wall. I do not remember any of the names other than sort of the nicknames and first names of any of the guys I was in basic training with, because that was one of my opportunities 50- I was one of two college grads, everybody else was 18, 19, 20 and I am sure some of their names are on the Wall. But Bob when he would get us up every morning, when he woke up, he would sing Fire and Rain by James Taylor and he you know, eventually sometimes occasionally we would, we would so we throw pillows at him or swear at him, or scream at him but he got it right and there was something about, that is what we were dealing with we were facing fire and rain. That is how I felt, you know, not knowing what was going to be like what life was going to be like in Vietnam. And-and I just you know, again, I mean there is I could go on and on. I think if on the road to find out by Cat Stevens to for the tournament came out when I was in Vietnam, I have a copy of it that was pressed on a on a bootleg label a guy got from me in Taiwan for $1 I am sure. Cat Stevens never saw any of the money from that. But, you know, that is when I came back. And I did not know what was going to I did not know, I was going through my, you know, Frankie Gaye thing. I did not know what was going to happen. I was driving around making visits to people who had written letters to me in Vietnam, because that is how we kept in touch. And I had, I did not have a clue of what I was going to do or where I was going to go. And, and I remember listening to that song and just, you know, trying to, you know, what is the way home? What is the way out? Where am I headed? SM: 1:51:15 Now, those are great five. Those are fantastic. I tell you, Marvin Gaye song, What's Going on? Golly! I can put the year 1971. The first thing I think of is that song because I was a graduate student and I was working in my brother's insurance company in Philadelphia. And I heard the album came out and I took a break. And Philadelphia and I went to Sam Goody and got the album. And it has been my one of my favorite tunes. And the other thing is, I think a 1967 because that was Light My Fire with the Doors. And I was had a summer job in Cortland, New York, and I had a ride. I did not have a car back then. But I was in my first or second year at Binghamton, and I had a summer job there. And the guy was riding with on the way home when he we blast that song. Oh, well, every single night? Because he had tea at a tape deck, and he would put it Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, my golly. And so I look forward to that every night after getting out of work over, you know, I was tired, but boy did that wake me up. So I have one other thing that another quote from your book, and then I got one other thing, and then we are done. This is something I think is very great, or a really great line that you put in the book. "For many vets music was an emotional touchstone for connecting with the wound parts of themselves. The Blues can help produce and confirm the value of their lives so they can see another day." And now that you were talking about the blues in there, and the blues tunes that people listened to in Vietnam, but there is so much truth there because of the trauma you have already discussed about. That the trauma that Vietnam vets went through was also the trauma that African Americans went through in slavery, and how they have been treated in their history. So that was excellent. Before I asked my final question, I want to read this if-if it is okay, it is a- it is a part of an interview that you did with Gerald McCarthy, who you remember that, and I do not want to be too long vided here. But I think it is important because this is his comments here. "Now it is easier to look back and see our ignorance for what it was an acre in, spawned by our youthful disregard for authority in reality, a way we all have not seen what we should have recognized. Many years later, the poet Sonia Sanchez, would tell my writing class at Attica prison. If you are here on purpose, it means you all come back on purpose. And I know she was speaking about prison and recidivism and the racism inherent in the penal system and society. But instead, I remembered the men, especially the soul brothers I had served with in Vietnam who did come back to face the same things again and again, at home and in war overseas. It is easy to be critical when you have the force of history behind you. When you see that the deaths we witnessed in Vietnam and afterwards, we are connected. So I must confess that the sweet sound a sweet soul music we loved and dance to was not escape a return to the world we thought we knew but did not know a glimpse into the time that seemed an essential part of us. And this way music was our youth and a connection to the things we shared class and work and war. It was essential because it did not divide us or stress our differences or divisions. I thought that was a great part of an interview that you did. You went, I am basically done. DB: 1:53:25 Oh yeah. I got to go. So last question. SM: 1:55:04 The last question is this. People will listen to this interview years from now 50 years from now what words of advice would you give to these young students or faculty members or national scholars who will listen to this interview? DB: 1:55:22 Open your ears listen, to listen to music that speaks to you, but also music that you are not as familiar with. And you know, if you can maybe lend somebody who is struggling a little and did something different than you especially, they deserve. Help me to get back home. SM: 1:55:46 Very good. Thank you very much. Great, fine. Are you still there. Yeah, I want to thank you very much for doing the interview and actually going over again, what we lost in the very beginning earlier today. Thank you very much. What will happen is the university will send you a copy of it through the- your digital email, and then you can listen to it and hopefully approve it, and then we can place it on site. Thank you very much for all you do. Please say the thank you to your co-author. Because you are doing something very important and I think your book should be required reading in. I think we are going to I am going to push it here at Binghamton when they had had the (19)60s course. You take care. Thank you. Bye now. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Doug Bradley https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d8ff1f0462a54690b35d85b59b7256b1.jpeg e15a69bf3ff45fdca7b57a718479abdf https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ea5100a5c81b221f78b7d228b1a521fb.MP3 76cf100b497cd3f54e9a1d5ae03475f1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 17 March 2023 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Howard Means Biographical Text Howard Means, a native of Lancaster, Pennsylvania, is an award winning author, editor and collaborator. He is the author/co author of several books, including The 500 Year Delta; The Visionary's Handbook; Colin Powell: A Biography; The Banana Sculptor, the Purple Lady, and the All-Night Swimmer; and the novel C.S.A. Means now lives in rural Virginia with his wife. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:35:12 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Kent state; Students, Nixon, Guardsmen, Anti-war movement, Sixties; Book, War, Talk, Campus, Shootings, Students, Activisim, People. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Howard Means Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 17 March 2023 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:02 All right, can you hear me? Yep. All right, on speakerphone. Today's interview is with Howard Means author of 67 Shots: Kent State and the End of American Innocence. Howard, thank you very much for agreeing to do this interview with me. And the first question I want to ask you is about your background. Your growing up years where you grew up, your family background, your schooling background, how you got into journalism and writing as a career. HM: 00:36 Sure-sure. Glad to tell you all that. Born and raised in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, right in the middle of Amish country, not Amish by background, but my mother's family had been in Lancaster since the early 1800s. Went to public schools there, JP McCaskey High School I am a proud graduate of 1962 to give you some sense of how old I am. SM: 00:59 Mm-Hmm. HM: 01:00 Went from there to University of Virginia, and state through Virginia for a Master's I was a Ford Foundation program that had identified a critical shortage of PhDs in the humanities in the late (19)60s. SM: 01:16 Hmm. HM: 01:16 And so they gave us it was it was a hurry up thing. You get a master's in a year and then you rush out and get your doctorate and we plug the gap and then of course, the Vietnam War came along. And nobody left school. A lot of people did not leave school who might have left school they stayed on for doctorates to avoid the draft. I left after my got my masters in 1967, I became a school teacher. I spent one year teaching at Deerfield Academy in Massachusetts, and then seven years at St. Albans school in Washington, DC, part of the National Cathedral schools. There are three schools in the grounds the national-national cathedral is at all the all-boys school. And it was a very interesting time to be there because there were a lot of you know, there was a one of the Bush sons was there more Percy son was there. Kim Agnew was blinded a girl school across the way. SM: 01:16 Hmm. HM: 01:19 National Cathedral School, HR Bob Halderman’s son Hank was in my class. So it was a school that had you heavily involved in events of the time [inaudible] right. And I was on the well, I will come back to that a second- went from there; I did that until 1975. Then I segwayed into journalism because I could not figure out how to make a living as a school teacher. My wife was also a school teacher and teaching in Washington DC, teaching in that in a housing market like that gave you absolutely no chance of buying housing anywhere nearby. So I segwayed into journalism. spent a couple years with the Chronicle of Higher Education. spent time with Washingtonian Magazine in two [inaudible] interrupted by eight years, seven years with the Orlando Sentinel newspaper, where I was something called critic at large and an op ed columnist. And I wrote op eds I wrote, my God, I wrote about a million words worth in seven years, three a week. You had to have evergreens in the bank when you went on vacation. And then I ran out of opinions. So I accepted the magazine journalism, and did that until I started, I started in 1992. Somebody contacted me asked me if I wanted to do a biography of this young man who was making a great name for himself in the first Gulf War, Colin Powell. And I said, Sure, I would love to do that. And Colin Powell was not going to talk to me, reasonably enough. Why should he talk to punk like me? But I had a we knew some people and we knew somebody in common. And I just interviewed I think I interviewed 125 people who knew him. SM: 04:07 Wow. HM: 04:08 And a lot of them being good military people would call and report that, that they talked to me. So finally, he called my friend a guy named Ken Edelman and said, you can tell the son of a bitch, he has got me surrounded, I will talk to him. [laughter] And I did and we had a great time, I got to talk to Alma, his wife. And it was sad, And the book, the book did quite well, I was very happy with it. And then so from there started segwaying into doing my own books, over the course of and I have been self-employed since 2000. And I have written a bunch of books during those 20 years since- I let me see 20 no, I have to say 30, 30 here, [inaudible] book. And so I have just been a freelance book person for the last 25 years or so. SM: 05:00 How do you pick the subject for your books? That leads me right into the rest of part of this question is, why did you pick a book on Ken State and in the title? Why did you pick Kent State in the End of American Innocence? HM: 05:13 Well, I will tell you subtitles are hard to come up with. So I will break that down in a couple of different ways. But basically, what-what-what captures my interest? The just- books are books are hard things to write. They take a lot of time, they take low energy, and it has to be something that really grabs me and fascinates me. And I have been lucky to find subjects that have done that. The one-one of the more recent ones, the one before Kent State was an adult market biography of Johnny Appleseed, John Chapman. SM: 05:56 Mm-Hmm. HM: 05:57 I have always been interested in who the real John Appleseed John Johnny Appleseed was, and how myth, I got very interested in how people get trapped in their own myths. And events get trapped in the myths that build up around them. And I think that is part of why I was interested in Kent State too there was sort of the sort of, you know, for the people who were there for people like Alan Canfora and so on. There is, there is one explanation and that explanation is everything. The guard was all wrong, the students role right. And that is, that is too simplified for people on the other side, you know, the students deserve what they got, etc., etc. And it is so much more nuanced a story than that. And so, I would like trying to I like going into the nuances and trying to get behind the miss. The book I did before Johnny Appleseed was a book about Andrew Johnson, that called the Avenger Takes His Place, non-malign from Melville poem after Abraham Lincoln's assassination. SM: 06:33 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. HM: 06:38 And a lot of a lot of myths accrued around Johnson. Johnson is not a likable person. He is an unsuccessful president. But-but they sort of 45 days after Lincoln's death before Johnson announced the terms of peace, were a fascinating time in American history where things could have gone in any one of a number of directions. And that is, I think, often been way too simplified in terms of Johnson's character and how it did, but back to Kent State, in this case, just funny. I do not know what got me thinking about Kent State, it might have been, I cannot remember what it was. But I had written a poem that I was I was teaching in St. Albans school in Washington, DC, I was teaching as I said, a lot of kids are good connections to this world, into the political world. And I remember going into the faculty lounge after-after work that day, about maybe about 2:30. There was a TV on and there was the story of this shooting at Kent State University. And it just given and riveted me for all sorts of reasons. One, the kids who were shot, and the kids who shot them were many of them just a couple years older than the kids I was teaching. Two, I had been active to some extent and anti-war protests, I thought, I thought and still think that it was a war that never should have been fought for, for reasons that I think Robert McNamara is, has stated- SM: 08:30 Yeah, well, one of the things I want to ask you even before you thought about writing a book on Kent State and or- HM: 08:30 It was a we got ourselves caught in the middle of a civil war that we had no business being in the middle of it. But all that said, so I was thinking about this. I went home that that evening, I was not yet married, I was about to married about a month later. And I wrote a poem about the whole thing I always thought it was-was perfect poem I ever wrote. And so when I started thinking about this, I went hunting for the poem. And I have a collection of things upstairs in the attic above my office. And I could not find the poem. And everything else from that time was there. And somehow, I taken that poem out and put it somewhere and could not find it. And so I said to myself, "Oh, heck, I will just write a book about it." [laughter], [crosstalk] And so I just started looking into it. And so for one of a poem, I wrote this book, I think, and I have since found the poem, and it is not anywhere near as good as I remembered it. [laughter] But, but I am grateful to it because I got the book out of it. And then and then the book was just, I mean, the book was a fascinating experience for me in all sorts of ways. We can talk about that further. Go ahead. What is- what else is in your mind? SM: 09:44 Just doing research on it, when you-you said 1960 until you graduated? HM: 09:52 From high school. SM: 09:53 Yeah, you are, you are either just in the, just the-the with the silent generation or you are a boomer. It depends, you know, but- HM: 10:01 Yep. SM: 10:01 -they are all in that activist era, because the beats were in that the silent generation here, before discussing you know Kent State and the link to the (19)60s, what were the events in your young life that impacted you? HM: 10:18 Mm-Hmm. SM: 10:19 Do another one words, a lot of people I have interviewed that whole era of growing up in the (19)50s. And the (19)60s in the (19)70s was, man, it was so different. And the it is all a unique experience. What were the events that started to- HM: 10:34 Right- Yeah, sure- SM: 10:34 -shape your thinking about how you think politically how you think about social issues and justice and things. HM: 10:40 Right. I wish I could say that it was John Kennedy's assassination, but I cannot. I was certainly affected by it. But I do not remember it. I remember as being something horrible in, in the world. But it just it did not impact me anywhere near as much as Martin Luther King's assassination. And there is a story behind that. I was teaching again at Deerfield academy that year, this is what 18- I am sorry 1968, April 1968. And I was, I had a I have a dorm master party was like it was a terrible job and all sorts of ways. But I had 35 high school seniors that I was in charge of an L shaped dormitory, including one Black student named Raj McKenney in watch, did not speak a lot. He was very bright guy from Boston area, became a lawyer eventually. But I was in my room that in my [inaudible], there was there was no television, you know, there was no TV lounge or anything like that. In those days. It was pretty Spartan living accommodations. SM: 10:40 Like that? Mm-Hmm. HM: 11:13 And it was about 9:30-10 o'clock at night. I think that kids were supposed to, you know, I think there was a lights out at 10 o'clock. And it might have been 9:30-10 o'clock and his knock on my door and I go and Raj McKenney standing there; tears rolling down his face. And he said he has just heard the Martin Luther King had been assassinated, and [inaudible] on the television, on my television. And we sat there for about an hour and 20 minutes or something like that watching. He just sat there quietly and cried the entire time. And that was a powerful, powerful experience for me. And I think that politicized me more than anything else has ever happened. To me, that one event. And I have not been a particularly political person up until that moment. Although I would have to say I was also kind of a clean Gene McCarthy guy as the as the (19)68 campaign went on. That was that whole year was my political awakening, I guess. And so the way the (19)60s there was all these forces moving through the Civil Rights and the, you know, the anti-war, everything. And they were, to some extent, toxic waters, they were just flowing through society. And I think I said in the Kent State book, all of those toxic waters flowed together in Kent, Ohio, on the week of the first weekend in May 1970. And it was hard not to bluff. Another example. This is this would have been, gosh, it was a weatherman demonstrate who is was it was an anti-war demonstration in Washington. And it had to have been in 1969, I think the spring of (19)69. The night before the weathermen had been done some, you know, trashing some stores and buildings along Massachusetts Avenue. And there was a- the next day, there was a demonstration done in the mall. And I walked down to it from where I was living, so walk down Massachusetts Avenue all the way to Dupont Circle. And when you get to the circles at every error race, at every radio office circles, and there are about six radios off of all those circles in Washington. There were military jeeps with four guards and four of my soldiers , army soldiers in them, each cradling a semi-automatic and they just, you know, stared at you and you walk down. And you know, you did not want to turn your eyes one way or the other, walked on down. And all that sort of stuff was just hard to be sentient in 1968, 1969. And not to one way or another, feel the spill these currents moving through American society. Especially if you were teaching school, you were teaching kids who are picking up on this stuff. SM: 12:46 Right. Mm-Hmm. HM: 12:51 So-so that was that was a powerful force, and the (19)68 presidential campaign to some extent, too that- SM: 14:46 Oh yeah, the conventions and everything. HM: 14:49 Yes. SM: 14:50 It is interesting that we have forgotten to Kent State, Dr. McPherson, the great historian on the Civil War, and you wrote a book on Johnson and when he was a young person working on his PhD, it was during the (19)60s and in the late 50s, and (19)60s, and he kept seeing the comparisons between the civil war in the (19)60s and the terms of the divisions that were happening. What would since you say, the Civil War, and then in the (19)60s, what were the commonalities there, in those two wars? HM: 15:25 Between the, between the, between the civil war in the (19)60s? SM: 15:28 Yes. HM: 15:30 Well, that is an interesting question. It was a deeply divided America. I think it was. Actually, our own time is very much the same today. And I see a lot of this today, too. SM: 15:41 Mm-Hmm. HM: 15:41 It was it was a deeply divided America was divided by- the difference between the civil war in the (19)60s and today, I guess, is the prevalence of mass media, and how mass media shapes public opinion. SM: 15:58 Mm-Hmm. HM: 15:59 And especially now how social media save ships public opinion. I think that is a huge difference, actually. The I mean, I think in the Civil War, people were sort of locked into their, their assumptions. Because they did not have a lot of interaction. I mean, guys in Massachusetts, were not going down to the party in Fort Lauderdale, and driving through, you know, slaveholding states. SM: 16:23 Right. HM: 16:24 When I was a kid growing up going my father's from Alabama, and we went back to Alabama with some regularity to see relatives. And I became quite conscious of, of, you know, colors only fountains and colors only entrances- SM: 16:39 Mm-Hmm. HM: 16:39 -and all that sort of stuff. And this is really strange. The so you became you are more, you know, intimately connected to those divisions in American-American society. The um, hmm. I do not know. It is interesting, certainly. [sighs] And I guess, I mean, I guess it was, in some ways, I mean, the South always claimed it was an illegitimate war. SM: 16:39 Mm-Hmm. HM: 16:39 It was a war of Northern aggression. This is still called in some, some quarters down there. I happen to feel the Vietnam was sent was an- SM: 17:18 Right. Yeah. HM: 17:18 -illegitimate war. So I guess, to some extent, and God knows what-what people are, you know, I do not understand how the party of Reagan has become the party of Vladimir Putin. But that is another matter altogether. But it certainly has happened in you know, in-in the last 40 years. That and less than that, I mean, if you get to figure that George W. Bush was-was of that Reagan era, that Reagan sort of sensibility, and all of a sudden, we are, we are. So you know, these are bitterly divided times in American society. And when that happens, toxic water starts flowing. And, and, you know, bad things can happen has happened to Kent State- SM: 17:59 When you one of the things about Kent State, and I have written, read a lot of books and done other interviews on it in the past, is that it always comes up, why cannot state you have a single section in your book, you know, people saying why did that happen here? You know, you could be Berkeley or University Wisconsin or Ohio State here, but Kent State [crosstalk] HM: 18:21 -places, it have-have been happened. Yeah. SM: 18:23 And in your own way, could you save? Why Kent State? HM: 18:30 Well, yeah, I mean, I will try to, I think there were a number of factors involved. And, number one, the college administration was not prepared for anything like this. They were they were not up to the moment in any way whatsoever. I think the President had a reputation as a very nice guy, white, but-but he had he was way over his head, this administration was way over its head. So that is factor number one. Ken Hammond, who was one of the student leaders this time made a really interesting point to me said also, the student demonstrators, he had been head of SDS [Students for a Democratic Society] when SDS was still in the Kent State campus. It was kicked off in 1969 because of some fight with fraternity boys and the attorney. Attorney. I know it was not kicked off. I just SDS was kicked off. And he said the problem there was that SDS gay protesters and infrastructure. You know, we had bullhorns, we had mimeograph machines we could get people organize in a way. SM: 19:15 Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. HM: 19:32 And what you had was what you had in the once the guardsman got there. And once the garden became the principal subject of this all you had, you had no infrastructure among the protesters no sort of coordination among the protesters. Everybody just kept repeating the same action expecting a different outcome. You had Jim Rhodes, who was the perfect tender for this for this sort of thing to happen. Jim Rhodes was a governor. Remember Rhodes was running. He could not succeed himself. He was running for the Senate seat. He was running for the Republican nomination for the Senate against Robert Taft Jr. and Rhodes saw this as I- when-when, when, first when his office was called early in the morning of Saturday-Saturday morning, and asked to send National Guard's Rhodes was man from heaven, because it could excite his base especially as Republican base especially in southern Ohio. A Friday poll had him trail and Bob Taft by 75,000 votes, I think it was your 69,000 votes. SM: 20:35 Mm-Hmm. HM: 20:35 Tuesday after the shootings was the primary election, he lost by 5000 votes. That almost put them over the top astoundingly enough. So you had that you had the guardsmen in this particular case, who were terribly led, who had no leadership whatsoever. So it was it was a perfect storm waiting to happen. At Columbia, people were used to this kind of thing, that at Berkeley, they might not have liked it any more than they do anywhere else. But they were used to this kind of thing. And, and also, I think part of it too, and I think I mentioned this in the book was tend to say it was it was a was a feeder school for the classrooms for teachers for north, northeast Ohio. SM: 21:22 Mm-Hmm. HM: 21:23 And teachers and I was one and I know a lot of them still tend to be naive. They tend to actually believe that we think they know everything they read in the Constitution and everything I say, Oh yeah, this is the way society works. I think they were I think they were simply naive about how you know what the guard was capable of. It is notable that that virtually no Black students participate in those demonstrations. In fact, they stake consciously away because Black students in Ohio as elsewhere know what police can do and- SM: 21:55 Yes. HM: 21:55 -what we will do- SM: 21:56 Yes. HM: 21:57 -if you get an adequately pissed off, they know what they will do. And in fact, when the ROTC building when the ROTC building got caught on fire on Saturday night the whole group of students from so called Black United students bus a clever acronym for the day boss and-and all that- SM: 22:15 Mm-Hmm. HM: 22:16 -these kids as soon as that started just-just as it caught on fire they showed up in the student union to have something eat you know or something like that. So they would be notably seen nowhere near this event. SM: 22:27 Wow. HM: 22:28 And they scared that they scared I think they the workers in the in the in the in the cafeteria, you know, the food, the food court area by all showing up at the same time. But so-so they were not naive the students were in lots of cases, I think naive. And then there was the fact that Jerry Rubin had been there to [inaudible] two weeks before- SM: 22:52 Mm-Hmm. HM: 22:54 -and had spoken and he had inflamed not only students but the townspeople of Kent. His talk was reported on and-and-and he had one of his famous lines which he always said was and you will your listeners will pardon me it goes something like "Just say fuck everywhere." [laughs] And you know, the townspeople cannot we are not quite ready for this. SM: 23:18 No. HM: 23:19 America was not quite ready for it is Jerry Rubin well, no Jerry Rubin was on the great self-promoters of all time. As was Abbie Hoffman for that matter? So that played a role too, because on Friday when the students [inaudible] I remember-remember the timing on this, the Thursday before the shootings. Richard Nixon goes on TV he gives a speech the war is being expanded into Cambodia. The 100,000 troops he was going to bring home or being you know are not going to be bought home and inflame students everywhere. Friday night, it is the first one of the first warm nights of spring. These are kids there is three to beer for sale to 18-year-old in that part of Ohio. I do not know if it is true. It was true then, all of Ohio there were bars downtown the kids go down. They start drinking they get a little rowdy. Somebody close to that with somebody orders the mayor orders the bars closed. So now you have got kids who has been the bands have not yet started that does not have the-the lead bands and [inaudible] that headliners not started. There is a, there is the New York Knicks and Lakers game is playing Wilt Chamberlain versus Willis Reed etc. For the NBA championship. All those people are watching out in the bars are thrown on the street now you got people who are just sore out on the street and they start to misbehave on the street. And that is with about within about an hour of that LeRoy Satrom, the mayor calls the governor's office and so that guards be sent in and that starts this thing on an inevitable- given the characters involved, it starts with on an inevitable march almost a tragedy. SM: 24:25 Yep. You bring up in this unit and you are discussing this, the-the massive lack of leadership in every group that you talked about the fact that the-the years of SDS are no longer there because they had been kicked off campus than they did the organization's for many of the planning for protests. And of course, they would have weekly meetings on campus and his organization- HM: 25:28 Right. SM: 25:28 -there. And then the mayor in I have worked in university for years and the mayor of any city is in deep contacts with the president of the university in their own town. First person- HM: 25:43 Yep. SM: 25:43 -to be called and he ends up calm the-the governor. HM: 25:47 Yep. SM: 25:47 So there was lack of leadership their lack of leadership in the guard. When you bring that up beautifully describe it was some of the people who were in the guard, did not know who to take orders from and you did not know anyone who was in charge. And I think you had a line in there and I do not know who said it. It was like two people walking in the middle of the night just been passing each other and that would be the mayor and the leader of the guard. [laughs] HM: 25:51 Yep. Yeah, and a perfect example of the lack of leadership. Okay, comes on Monday, comes on Monday at noon, everybody knows there is going to be a demonstration on you know, everybody knows what is going to happen. There is going to their students are going to gather, the guard will rebill, Ohio Riot Act in order to disperse, they will not disperse. They will fire tear gas and then we will see what happens. Well, so it is obviously an everybody knows what is going to happen on the students know what is going to happen the teachers are talking about in your classes that morning. There are signs posted in bulletin boards and all the academic halls. And “Where is the government," said “Where is the president of the university? Where all his top administrators?” At noon that day when it has been called for, they were having lunch at the Brown Derby restaurant a half a mile from the restaurant and from the from the scene of action. There is a command center that is been set up for-for crisis command center. And in charge of the command center is a 25-year-old graduate student named Ray Bae who I had a really great long interview with. Ray Bae is sitting up there. He does not have any windows in this command center. So good windowless command center with a crackly walkie talkie that you can you can periodically talk to people on a periodic cannot hear a darn thing that said, and this is when the whole thing started. You know, that is, that is, that is, it is, it is beyond, you are responsible. It is a way it is criminal irresponsibility, I think on the part of the university. SM: 27:46 I heard in an interview, I will not mention the name. But in one of my interviews, the person said that they knew all about President White and whenever there was a crisis, he would that be seen, he would send one of his administrators to the crisis and had that person report back to him so that he would be free from the controversy or whatever. HM: 28:05 I think he was also just a laissez faire kind of guy- SM: 28:08 Right. HM: 28:08 -to say that things will take care of themselves. He was apparently much loved. He was a good guy. But if-if, and we can talk another time, but yesterday, Glen Frank had finally not finally not acted after the shooting was when there was no worse could have been worse could have happened. Somebody had to take charge. Glen Frank finally took charge. But that is another story for later on. SM: 28:31 But yeah-yeah. What a hero. He was, you know, and the tears in his eyes. When students saw the tears in his eyes. He knew he meant business and [crosstalk] HM: 28:42 -broke them. I do not know if anybody has ever talked about that. He was never the same after that. SM: 28:50 You talk to- HM: 28:50 -his son, his son mentioned that to me. SM: 28:53 You talk about you talked to the student activities director. He has listened. He was in your book here of canceling universal. Yeah, he said there was a plan. There was a plan. If there was a crisis, we had a plan. And they talked about all this business about the plan, then why did not you do it? HM: 29:10 Because, well, the plan involves the Ohio patrol and the Highway Patrol. That was the plan. [laughter] Highway Patrol one had nothing to do with it. And then of course, there were the extraneous factors to that guardsmen that were brought over to Kent from Akron, where they had been on a teamsters strike, they had been sort of, you know, policing the roads over there, because, you know, people like teachers were firing at scabs and the trucks that were there, were taking the trucks out. So these guys retire. They, you know, they have done they have done fairly hard duty, they were sleeping on, you know, a gym floor and, and so, all those all those sorts of factors are part of that are part of the volatile putting that is being created on these three days that go along and as they go along. SM: 30:00 I know when you talked about Richard [inaudible], he taught he talked about the importance of community. HM: 30:00 Yeah. SM: 30:00 -that whole concept that I we think we know our community. And then he looked at the videos after the after the tragedy and the killings. HM: 30:06 Yeah. SM: 30:06 And he said, I did not know any of those students. I mean, talk about administration. That was as Jerry, I think, Jerry Lewis, the professor said the- HM: 30:27 Jerry Leis, yeah. SM: 30:29 -wrong man at the wrong time. And that was so true. The people that are going to be listened to this interview are going to be hearing this 5-10-15-20 years from now, could you just briefly describe again, the four days leading up to the tragedy? HM: 30:46 Sure-sure. SM: 30:47 Yeah. HM: 30:49 Thursday. Now that pick-up count backwards third, second, first, Thursday, April 30th, Richard Nixon gives a nationally televised speech, explaining why instead of bringing troops home from Vietnam, 100,000 troops home, he is expanding the war to interdict-interdict North Vietnamese and Vietcong soldiers in Cambodia. So this is everybody thought, "Oh, gee," you find these bringing people home, the war is winding down." It produced a pretty violent reaction on campuses generally around the country. So that is Thursday. Friday, there is a demonstration on the Kent State campus by a bunch of nerdy looking graduates who photograph is wonderful, who call themselves WHORE for an acronym for World historians opposed to racial something. I cannot think of what the EU would be right now. Racial exploitation, I think it was- SM: 31:55 Right. HM: 31:56 -supposed to, and they bury a copy of the Constitution at the at the bell, the victory bill, which was a big part of the campus of the of the commons area where the where the later events will begin. And then on Saturday, the things are fairly calm in the morning. There is some talk about ROTC building, going and attacking the ROTC building. It should have been it should have been anticipated. I am sure it was not just ready because ROTC buildings were being attacked nationwide and set on fire and in some cases bombed nationwide. So the evening comes, the guard has the guards, the guard is over in Akron, but they have been they have been put an alert they might have to come to campus. And students begin to attack to begin to surround the ROTC building and make some you know halfhearted attempts to set it on fire. The- Kent fire department is called they show up. They begin to try to put out the fire but there gets some flak things just people are throwing some things that somebody might have taken a machete to one of the fire hose it is hard to say. But the so they leave meanwhile, meanwhile on a ridge overlooking this that I think it is the vice president a guy whose name is going escapes me right now. Matson, I think it is standing up there with the Kent State Security Force. They are looking down at this at from this sort of height because the-the ROTC buildings at the end of this commons area, it is surrounded by some hills. And they do not do a thing. They just stand there. They- the fire department goes away, the students move in, they set the building on fire. And about that time the guard has been the guard has been summoned. And as the guard is driving into Kent, they see this. They see this sky lit up by flame and they say oh my god, what am I getting into with that was the ROTC building burning. And it burned it burned to the ground that night. I think the fire department returned and put some of the flames out or something I cannot remember that. The guard, the guard hits the ground running. They order people in the dormitories to do all sorts of things. There is a bunch of you know, back and forth hit and run sort of stuff the students are trying, the guard take control the situation. In some cases, they have been at a number of kids in the butt, or they were trying to climb in the windows. It was various other things. So the campus is- the campuses is tempestuous at this point. So that is Saturday night. Yes. Oh-oh, I forgot. I forgot okay. I had to go back on Friday night. I am sorry on Saturday morning after he calls him to guard LeRoy, LeRoy Satrum, the mayor of Kent also declares a curfew downtown Kent from I think it is from eight at night till six in the morning, something like that. So the students are now confined to the campus. They cannot leave the campus. The guard has showed up there some sort of major confrontation. So that night, Sunday comes and things are eerily calm in the morning. I remember who was in which was it Jerry Lewis, I think it was Jerry Lewis. One of the professors that teachers at Kent, told me about taking his kids down - SM: 34:06 Mm-Hmm. him. That was him. Yes. HM: 35:36 Yeah. To see the ROTC building it is surrounded by guards and the guards when the guardsmen by the way are carrying M M1 Garand rifles, which were sniper rifle their world war two combat rifles is what they are. It is an actually insane thing to be doing crowd control with, you do crowd control with bird shot. SM: 35:55 Mm-Hmm. HM: 35:56 And it just about the same time Israel started using rubber bullets for crowd control. These guys are using guns that are lethal, up to a half up to more than a half a mile out. SM: 36:07 Wow. HM: 36:08 Guns that can pick a 200-pound person up off the ground and throw them backwards through the air. That is how powerful they are. So Jerry Lewis said he was walking around with his kids. He said, I have been I have been in the army. I have been at Fort Knox guard in Fort Knox. I carry a gun. We never had any ammunition. And I never thought to ask these guys so they had live ammunition and their rifles who just did not seem to be possible. But there is a kind of a- it is kind of a carnival festival quality to Sunday afternoon. You know, the whole thing, you lovely young woman with-with-with buckskin fringe coats on, you know, put rifle put flowers in their rifles and the guards. There is some guards smiling back at the girls and all this sort of stuff that had a set of a playful quality. SM: 36:55 Mm-Hmm. HM: 36:55 That nights things go to hell in a handbasket. Huge confrontation of by the main gate, apprentice gates, and back and forth, back and forth. Helicopters are coming in and doing tear gas from the air. The places that some people who want one or two people came back to campus that that night, because classes started the next day they had been now a lot of kids. I have started commuted to Kansas State it was good and there were a lot of commuters from Cleveland and elsewhere going down there was not they did not live there. They were not residents students talk about these are a couple of people who have come who had been-been in Vietnam. They said they came over the hills coming down towards Kent State. They said it looked like-like-like Da Nang you know, helicopters, there was tear gas all over the place, there were people running every direction, etc., etc. So it is a- it is a- it is a fraught situation. They finally break that up sometime after midnight, the campus quiets down overnight. And there is a- now it is Monday, May 4, there is a demonstration has been called for-for noon that day. Same place other demonstrations has taken place and it is down on the on the commons area. Surrounded it is a kind of a natural bull. And so the students are on the hillside looking down in this natural bowl. The guards 600-700, some of them 792 or something like that. Their main the main encampment is down at the far end of the of the Commons. So they-they are down there. The guy who is in charge of the guards a gun in Canterbury, General Canterbury. He is sort of late to the party to a 10 o'clock meeting and he-he has a suit on. So he is not even in uniform. He is wearing a suit with-with a gas mask over his over his head on top of his head and communication, presumably a communication system. So it is now noon. The-the one of the one of the guys from the guards, or yeah, no, it is maybe the camera who it was. Gets his bullhorn tells the students they had to disperse. Under the Ohio Riot Act the students have no intention of dispersing of meanwhile, should add to they have not canceled classes, people are still walking to classes all around this scene. And it will be fatal for two of them. And within the next 22 minutes. The- so the students you know refuse to move Canterbury lines as his troops up, he marches him forward towards the hill where all these people are sitting. There is tear gas being fired. The students take off up the hill and down the other side of it. The guardsmen split into two camps going on one side of Taylor Hall and a large group on the other side of Taylor Hall. The main group of guardsmen end up down because nobody has this guy Canterbury has not tested, has no sense of the battlefield. He has, he has marched his troops down into a cul de sac, basically a football field on practice football field that has, you know, has a fence around it. And there is construction down there, which gives people you know, pieces of wood to throw at the garden, everything there, the other groups are disappears the other side, they do not become a factor. And so they are down there. This is now about, let us say, 12:15 around in there, 12:20-12:00-12:14, something like that. And so he is well, they start to march and back up the hill, they just came down. They get to the Pagoda, which is a campus, sort of little sculpture, it is a- it is a metal Pagoda kind of thing. They got their-their students thinking the guards, because they want to have the guards in the run are coming up the hill after them. The guards who in turn 19 of them, turn fire 67 shots into the crowd, they fire 67 shots, I should say. Some of them go in the air, some of them go in the ground. But there was an air of intentionality by that point. And, and nobody has ever been held responsible for this, I should say. You mentioned Joe Lewis earlier, Joe Lewis, in a what he called a colossal, colossal piece of bad timing. chooses just at the moment when the guards have turned to stand up and give him the finger. He gets shot in the ankle. Alan Canfora has shot in the wrist. He has been waving a flag, Black Flag during this this, this part of the demonstration he got shot on the wrist. Alison Krauss, who was very visible, it was very striking looking woman very much in the forefront of the protest is-is shot. Basically, bullet fragments insider and destroys virtually all of her viscera. And Jeffrey Miller, who has been again very active, short guy kind of buzzing around like a [inaudible] thing is just, it is just shouting out one of the basic chants. I suspect it was 1234 We do not want your fucking more when he shot in the mouth. Jerry Miller, Miller, Jeff Miller bleeds out on the ground. He is the one in the famous photo bleaching out as Marianas Accio stands with their arms up in there looking like a character from Edvard Munch painting. Screaming to just screaming basically. But I mean, those are what they are on. They are horrible, but they are the collateral damage, the incidental damage. So there is intentionality and all those cases I am sure that they ran at those people. There is no question about that. But then there were the shots that were just randomly fired, that were-were not fired up in the air, though. There is a parking lot behind where all these people have been. And that is where Sandy Shore is walking from one class to another. She is not even looking at what is going on. She is walking along, and an M1 bullet- service or jugular vein. And that is also where Bill Schroeder, who was he will just stop his books are in his arm and he has just stopped and you know, to ask people what is going on something like that. And he was number two in his ROTC class. He was a college basketball player 6-6 feet 1 or something 180 odd pounds. He is the one that no one bullet just picks up off the ground and throws back his arms and legs akimbo. A guy named Henry Mankiewicz was standing next to him and he describes it in something that will haunt me for my dying day, that description. And then there were other people who shot incidentally two or maybe not it is hard to hard tell some of those cases. So the guardsmen, then the guardsmen then reassemble. This This puts us off to everything you know what is going on nobody else the guardsmen are marched around to where they began. They have reassembled now at the far end of this Commons. And this is going on getting towards one o'clock on-on Monday, May 4th. The students are back over the hill and they were back where they were when this whole thing began. And there are a bunch of them who have stripped off their shirts and painted X's on their chest [coughs] excuse me and are getting ready to charge the guard. The guard has reloaded I mean it would have been able to my shooting ducks in a barrel. And this is when teacher named Glenn Frank, crew cut guy who had been a military guy himself and World War Two, just a complete straight shooter. He sees he sees the potential and he had another idea and one person start pleading with the students to not do this, do not do this do not do this and, and he does not know it but his son Alan is one of those people in the crowd. Who was who says he said[inaudible] house fraternity kid? I had no you know, I was against all this protest. And after seeing this, I was ready to strip my shirt off and charged with them. And Glen Frank cannot know this. But Glenn Frank, please and please, you can hear his voice is to tape recording. He is crying with tears in his voice. It is an incredibly passionate moment. And he finally convinces them to turn and-and disperse, which they do. And that is that is basically the end of the action although that night things intent, there been a lot of rumors flying around cat. Among the rumors was that the students are going to lace the water supply with-with LSD, which one I love that they were coming through underground tunnels, the sewer tunnels or something like that to set fire to a shopping center, strip mall and various other things. SM: 46:08 Mm-Hmm. HM: 46:09 And go and people store owners were spending the night with our deer rifles on top of your stores. The it was it was a very fraught place. And that night, there are a lot of people driving around sort of vigilante cars looking for students that because the initial report was students-students killed two guardsmen. That was the first report I think that went out. And of course, then that got corrected went along for the 11 wounded. So and then the story is kind of plays itself out eventually that day, they ordered the campus closed and-and that is sort of the end of it, at least at that level of action. Is that clear enough? SM: 46:56 Yes, it is very good description, because- HM: 46:58 Okay. SM: 46:59 -it is a very good description. What is interesting is what is going on in Washington DC at this very same time. You know, I think you do-do a tremendous job in your book about making the context it is going on not only in Kent, but other places. The one thing that is very true, it happened to me, but it happened to so many other people at that time. Is the-the talk that I wish they had killed all those students, you know, people- HM: 46:59 Yeah. SM: 47:01 -going home to their families and- HM: 47:08 Oh, my God, yeah-yeah. SM: 47:13 -the whole community of Canton people. I mean, I mean to say something I was at Binghamton University, I am senior year and I am going to be graduating in two weeks. And, and I was in an accident. I was in the operating room in Johnson City, the night of Nixon speech, and, and I was in the hospital for about a week or so. But I am- HM: 47:51 Yeah-yeah. SM: 47:51 -in that magazine. My parents brought the magazine in with Mary Vecchio over Jeff Miller- HM: 47:57 Life magazine. Yeah-yeah. SM: 47:58 -but you know, my doctor who saved my arm, they were going to amputate it. HM: 48:02 Oh no. SM: 48:03 They were. Yeah, it was a very bad injury at my house back. And then near Ithaca. He came in and said, I was looking at the magazine. He said I wish to kill those damn kids. HM: 48:15 Oh yeah-yeah- SM: 48:15 I did not respond to him by saying I am one of those damn kids. But that was that that was a surgeon that saved my arm. HM: 48:22 Yeah-yeah-yeah. SM: 48:22 And he knew I was abandoned student. So that that is so important. [crosstalk] And also the late kneeling labeling of all people who happen to be in Kent as communists and all this. HM: 48:34 Oh, yeah-yeah-yeah, exactly. Oh, no. And there was Brinsley Tyrrell who is I do not know when she is still alive. And he was an art teacher there. He was still alive when? Back in 2015, when I interviewed him, but he remember he was a young art teacher there. And he and his wife. Well, first of all, he told me two stories, three stories. Actually, I will tell you all three, because they are all they all relate to this. SM: 48:56 Mm-Hmm. HM: 48:57 The first one was, he and his wife were home. That I think it was late that night or the next day, when one of his students who had you know they had been thrown off the campus, they could not go out. He came and knocked on the door. And ft come in, and he said was sure come in. And he sat down and cried. He said he had gone home. And wherever home was, you know, a couple hours away- SM: 49:22 Wow. HM: 49:23 -and that he found the door locked. So he said, Hey, it is me. And his parents shouted through the through the mail slot. We do not ever want to see you again. And so he came to Brinsley's house, that that same day is two daughters. So they had tired a Black, Black ribbon around a tree in front of their house. Being good academic liberals and their daughters the next day were going out to school was closed the next day still, they are going to play with some friends and the kids in the neighborhood pelting them with tones, which just to me is just horrible beyond description. SM: 49:25 Mm-Hmm. HM: 49:27 And then the third thing is he remembers he remembered a day later even walking downtown from his house, and a neighbor, about half a block down. Sitting on his front porch with a shotgun. He said, he just trained it on me the entire way down in front of his house. SM: 50:23 Wow. HM: 50:23 I just walked down with this guy swinging, swinging as is aim along with me. And that and those stories are just beyond Dean Kahler, you know, got Dean Kahler, who has been paralyzed for life. He was, he was he was, he was nowhere near the action. He would take. He meant he was such a, he was such a polite and farm Ohio farm boy, that he called all his teachers that morning, Monday morning to tell them, he was afraid he had missed their class because he wanted to, you know, see what this is all about. SM: 50:24 Mm-Hmm. HM: 50:27 And he would just he just went a shooting star, he lay down on the ground and was shot in the back. And since he lost his feet because of lack of circulation. SM: 51:04 Mm-Hmm. HM: 51:04 He is our heroic person, and they are very decent person. I got to say. So yeah, those stories and that story was magnified nationally, but that was going on nationally. I mean, I can remember in Washington, DC, you know, having slightly long hair as I did, but not you know, not sort of not hippy length hair and like walking into barber shops and having you know, World War Two that just sitting there just glower at me as I, as I walked in waiting for my chair to say I never said that kind of thing. We were just going on nationally and all sorts of. And another example that after the week, that weekend, after the Kent State shooting, there was a pro there was a there was a demonstration in the financial district in New York. SM: 51:47 HM: 51:47 For you know, in, in honor of the anti-war demonstration honoring the Kent State dead, wounded. And you will remember this, the construction workers showed up with their hard hats and crowbars and beat the crap out of some of the people who were doing demonstrating and that Gordon Brennan, the head of a construction union workers, job is Richard Nixon's labor secretary, if I remember correctly. [laughter] SM: 52:17 You talked- HM: 52:18 Richard Nixon, Richard Nixon. I mean, they will go ahead, go down. SM: 52:21 Yeah, we are going to talk about Nixon. The-the context of this at that particular time was over the issue of law and order. HM: 52:28 Yeah-yeah. SM: 52:28 And you do a tremendous job here by explaining what Ronald Reagan did about a couple of weeks before Kent State- HM: 52:36 Yep. SM: 52:37 -with the students in California and then the governor of Ohio doing the very same thing with- HM: 52:43 Yep-yep. SM: 52:43 -the way he was acting. And then you go into what Nixon was doing in Washington and Haldeman's notes. Could you kind of go into all this? It is really good and-and I think the silent majority how the silent majority came about. HM: 52:57 Yeah, right. [laughs] it is, it is an interesting, isn't that? SM: 52:59 Yeah. HM: 53:00 Well, just-just quickly on that, or the stretch my memory a little bit here. So well, Nixon, Nixon's first. Nixon's first instinct was, well, it was it was it was out of out of it was professional rabble rousers basically. it was outsiders. And he told J. Edgar Hoover, the director of the FBI, to find those outside rabble rousers, the you know, the-the agitators, the outside agitators who would cause this because the party line was that there was a group of people, SDS, leaders, yippies, like Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, etc., who were causing all this trouble. It was not. It was not a, you know, an endemic American problem. It was this this sort of small group. And so J. Edgar Hoover has spent his people spent a lot of time in Kent trying to, you know, collecting, you know, information, none of which were out. And we just we talked about that [inaudible] would later say that you know, they I believe this to be the case too and when we looked at the photographs, they were all our own people we just did not know them they were not the kind of people we focused on these if we just did not know your work so-so-so Hoover was trying to collect all this stuff. Actually. There is a that is a good story too. I will get to that. So and Nixon meanwhile, so hold him is the one who goes in and wakes up Nixon. He is taking a nap on Monday afternoon he tells him about the shootings. And Nixon was apparently initially you know, very concerned about a horrible, horrible thing. Bob just horrible thing. And then of course, he begins to try to figure out how I can play this politically. SM: 54:42 Mm-Hmm. HM: 54:43 So he orders Hoover to find out who the outside agitators are. Meanwhile, Spiro Agnew, his Vice President, this is just red meat for Agnew who-who-who goes every who starts talking everywhere he can about-about the nattering nabobs of negativism that he used to call the people in the press and everybody else. SM: 55:06 Sapphire was his writer. [laughter] HM: 55:07 You have sapphire-sapphire, I hope I hope got into heaven nonetheless. It turns out that guidance that Gould who was what was-was spear lag news press secretary. And I knew that died a couple years ago. He is a great guy. I knew him pretty well. And so we talked about, he told me he actually told me he said that the horrible the real tragedy that the real tragedy said the thing about that Jim Rhodes said he was not he was not running for the Senate because he because he wanted to be a senator. He just could not think anything else to do with his time to do so he loses he loses the National Guard on Kent State. Because what the hell else am I going to do right? It is just natural become a senator. Rhodes is a horrible person and lots of money. Right. Okay. So-so-so Nixon was trying to figure out how to play this. And he does. He orders Agnew to just pike, turn it, turn it down a notch, turn it down several notches. Then he gives us a Thursday or Friday, Thursday. Thursday night? Yes, right. Thur- Friday night, he gives a speech to the American people, which starts out, you know, fairly conciliatory, but then gets a little rougher as it goes along. And meanwhile, hundreds of 1000s of people are preparing to gather in the mall the next day, the National Mall, Nixon was giving this speech in a White House, it was surrounded by DC transit buses, human barricade, and the middle it was literally surrounded, ringed by them all the way around the entire bus fleet, practically a DC transit buses. There are the 82nd airborne is overnighting in executive, the old Executive Office Building sleeping on the floor over there. And I know this because I was out in the mall the next day. And there are snipers on top of all the Smithsonian buildings and all the government buildings along the people high powered rifles. That is the sort of state things were in at that point. So, it was it was just it was a horribly-horribly fraught time. But I think you can make an argument that it was in fact, almost the end of the anti-war movement, the in any sort of in any sort of collective meaningful, high impact way that was happening at any rate, because the draft had ended in the December of 1969. So, the there was less incentive because it was now going to be an all-volunteer army. But I do think I do think they response. Oh, do you think I think I can safely say that was the beginning of the end of, and I think it was the beginning of the end of radicalism in America for many decades. SM: 58:24 Mm-Hmm. HM: 58:25 Really, I do not think we have ever seen it. We have not seen anything like that in my in my, you know, my, what is my really adult lifetime, as opposed to my 20s? So yeah, I think I think I say that in the book, and I think I feel that is still the case. SM: 58:42 But what is interesting when-when you were talking about the Reagan, then the Rhodes and the Nixon is the words they used. And Reagan said, if it takes a bloodbath to end campus violence, let us get it over with no more appeasement. And then Rhodes comes back at you know, after Kent State or during Kent State. And about, you know, let us get rid of the law. It is a law no, deal with the symptoms. Let us deal with.[crosstalk] HM: 59:15 Yeah, we are going to root-root out the problem. Yes. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Real tough talk. You said that at the press conference, when he first came to Canada. Yeah, he was. He was a take no prisoners. The guy wrote. The not the right man for the moment. I do not think. SM: 59:32 Yeah, certainly Nixon gone down in the middle of the night to the memorial. HM: 59:36 That is what I was trying to remember. SM: 59:37 Yes. HM: 59:38 That is one of the weirdest moments in American presidential history. The Nixon this is after he has given the speech. He thinks it is a wonderful speech. He is feeling you know, really, he had said he would take no calls after the speech because he thought there might be you know, would not be, but he was he was he was had to completely opt out after the speech. And he made something like “God Oh,” I wish I had the numbers in front of simulate 50 calls in three hours. I mean, any maxed number them to Henry Kissinger as I remember correctly. For some reason Henry Kissinger I am not sure why. And then about three o'clock he wakes 3:15 wakes up is his valet what is his name Mano [Manolo] Sanchez, something like that. And says, "Have you ever been to the mall? " "No, sir, I have not." "So Oh, good, get dressed." They have got a skeleton crew, they go down, they wake up a couple of protesters who are in sleeping bags, have a chat with them. And you look at this, there is a famous photograph of Nixon there. And one guy who had a guy and a woman or you know, long haired- SM: 1:00:46 Right. HM: 1:00:46 -and they looked and they looked like my God, how much dope that I have last night? Why am I, why am I having this vision? [laughs] SM: 1:00:55 Also, I guess he Nixon was upset because he did not hear favoritism from his cabinet. You had mentioned that. HM: 1:01:01 Oh yes of course [crosstalk] SM: 1:01:02 He was very upset. Yeah. HM: 1:01:06 [inaudible]got in big trouble for that. Nixon-Nixon-Nixon had no capacity for it for small talk. I mean, he was- his-his staff wrote out small talk on index cards for him. So he starts talking to people and he says, you know, and then he started to tries to make small talk with them. And one person had gone to Syracuse University, as I remember. So we started talking about Jim Brown and you know, this area and Ben Schwartzwald are the old Syracuse football stars. That is what-what did this guy wake me up to talk about Syracuse football for? And then he goes from there. He orders that he says the Mantra he says the sen- of Mano if I am in credit. "Have you ever seen the House of Representatives," said "No, no." So they go tooling off to the House of Representatives. And they have to get secrets or people open the door. Somebody opened the place up and then they could enter the well the house and Mono has a nice look around. They go have breakfast somewhere and by then everybody's on alert to get him back inside. And take the phone away for a while I think. SM: 1:02:13 Well, there was also the scene where he brought students from Kent State University to the White House. HM: 1:02:18 Yes. SM: 1:02:19 And-and he said that was a great meeting. And they were a bunch of nice kids. [laughter] [inaudible] radicals. HM: 1:02:28 Yeah, carefully chosen if we can [crosstalk] SM: 1:02:30 I think so. HM: 1:02:32 Yeah, yeah. [crosstalk] SM: 1:02:33 Could you- HM: 1:02:35 He was capable of such strangeness? SM: 1:02:37 Yeah, of course. Agnew. The guy had nothing to do so go out and go after the protesters. He, he put some words to you. You brought it up in the book. All they do is proclaim. [laughter] Why do not[crosstalk] they go and become educated? And you also mean, you said something very important that about the silent majority. Could you talk a little bit about that too. HM: 1:03:05 Oh sure. Well, yeah, there was a guy who were the people that was it. Oh, I cannot think of the name of the people involved. Was it Ben Wattenberg? SM: 1:03:06 Because that was happening at that time? Who were the silent majority. They were the on- the one they were the on Black on? Go ahead. And- Yes. Ben Wattenberg. HM: 1:03:24 Yeah. [inaudible] and Wattenberg was one of them and so they set out to find out who the silent majority work. And they did all this determination. And they-they finally decided that the-the prototypical sat member of the sound majority was not going to have this exactly right. Was a 48-year-old housewife in Dayton, Ohio. And there was something else in that description that made me think oh, yes, a perfect candidate mother who was exactly the kind of person they were talking about. Kent State was a school you know, was-was a middle-class school. It was not it was not an Amherst or a Princeton or anyplace like that. But the-the person that the middle-class person they wanted was, in fact, the person who had been most dramatically affected in some ways by Kent State. So I find that fascinating. I wish I had the detail work in front of me, but I do not right now. SM: 1:04:21 I think they were on young, on Black and on something else. HM: 1:04:26 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. SM: 1:04:28 What is an important thing to talk about here again, as a little more description of the of the guard? HM: 1:04:34 Yes, okay. SM: 1:04:35 And who they were, what-what kind of people were they? And again, you know, their role. You talk also about the number of guard that actually went and served in Vietnam, which is very small, like 1.5 percent or something like that. Very few. Yeah-yeah-yeah. but could you talk about what made up the guard and why they were there? HM: 1:04:55 Let me do one thing first. Before I do that, I found that by Um, this is uh, this is Ben Wattenberg and Richard Scammon. And from their book, The Real Majority published nearly 1970. The average voter the two argued was on young and poor and, and Black and less interested in progressive causes than law and order issues. That is what it was. That is what Yeah. Okay. And then I am sorry, what was the question you just asked me? SM: 1:05:24 It was about the guard itself. Who were they? I mean, I know, HM: 1:05:27 Oh yeah-yeah. SM: 1:05:28 They were young. They may even a couple years older than the students. But what who were they? HM: 1:05:33 Well, the guard were. The guards were in by then a lot of the guard were people who were in the guards did not go to Vietnam. I mean, they joined the Guard to get out of Vietnam. The most famous person to join the guard to get out to go into Vietnam, I guess was George W. Bush, who join the Alabama Air National Guard, if I remember correctly. The- they were, they were mostly just there, but some of them were college students. They were they were in their early 20s, early to mid-20s. They-they did not sign up for anything like this at all. I do not think they were. They were not particularly political. I mean, I think they are more Republican and Democrat, probably. But they were there. A lot of them were people who were just doing guard duty because they did not have to go to Vietnam. And they signed up before the all they would have signed up before the all-volunteer army before the draft ended in the end of December of 1969. And the guardsmen, to me, it is really, I had I ended up having sympathy for the guard that I never expected to have for the guardsmen. One because they were so poorly lit. They were asked to they were put in impossible situations by people that who-who-who, you know, who had no bloody idea what they were doing. And two they have been living inside. Another thing that another contributing factor, I forgot to mention this on what happened on the fourth is that somebody forgot to check and see how many tear gas canisters they had before they started this whole operation on that noon that day. And they ran out of tear gas halfway through, when they got down the hill on the other side, and they were getting trapped down there in the in the, in the construction site, the football field, they had no they had no tear gas left. So you know, it was just when you think of all the things they did wrong, they certainly were horribly led. But then I have read the guardsmen were deposed in many cases 2,3,4 or 5 times. And the first time they were deposed was right afterwards. And they just said what they were told to say. But then, and then and later deposition, you can see they have sort of thought through this experience they had. And you begin to see what it must have looked like to them through a gas mask, they were tired, a gas masks are hard. They were lousy things that view the world through, you get a narrow lens through the gas mask, they were sweaty, they were hot. And they saw people and I think they honestly thought these people were 20 feet from them, and they were 20 yards from them. I mean, I got a sense of the suffering they had gone through in the later deposition. So I never saw in the first depositions, and much more honesty, and I thought I thought these people were put in a horrible situation impossible situation. And somebody owes them an apology. SM: 1:08:28 Do you feel- do you feel at the question I have here with all the things that we have discussed here? HM: 1:08:37 Right. SM: 1:08:37 Everybody kind of failed in the area of leadership? Is there one person or one group that stands out above all? The reason why this happened? HM: 1:08:48 That is a good question. Nobody had a plan B, that was really the problem. SM: 1:08:55 Yeah. HM: 1:08:55 And that that old definition of insanity, you keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result? I would say? [sighs] Well, it is a toss-up between the guard leadership and university leadership. SM: 1:09:14 Right. HM: 1:09:15 I would say I would say the Guard leadership is the single greatest factor in this. SM: 1:09:23 Okay. HM: 1:09:23 The- it is what they did was inexcusable. The university leadership you can at least you know, give them credit for being naive and not getting credit. You can excuse me a bit-bit for being naive. Or at least, but I think they are willfully blind in themselves in the possibilities. But the- yeah, I would say the card I would say the guard I would say Robert Canterbury is the- is the- is that if I had to have a lead villain in this, I probably wrote with the second and president of White would be third- SM: 1:09:57 -press if the President had been a real press And then he, the may or may not may or may have contacted him and the garden we never been called. And-and if the- if the President had gone out to the gate and talked, it is so many, the President is never there. HM: 1:10:15 Yeah. SM: 1:10:16 He is a miserable- HM: 1:10:18 He was- he had- he had an appointment that that weekend in what is that called the American College test day. SM: 1:10:26 Right. HM: 1:10:27 He was on the board of the AC T on a high in Iowa. So he was out there, he did come back slightly early. But he never should have gone. I mean, he should have seen that now thought the situation was not gone. And once he was out there, he should have come back right away when this happened. Yes. Before I forget, let me say something also talking about Nixon back to Nixon. Bob Haldeman had a set of facts in the observation in his memoir. And that was he thought that Watergate began with Kent State. And his argument was that because that because J. Edgar Hoover could not deliver the outside agitators. Nixon lost faith in him. And that is why he assembled the plumbers to do this do his dirty work for him. And I hold them and says that I have to give it some credence. The, but it is sort of an interesting. It is a bit of a stretch, but kind of interesting observation. SM: 1:11:30 I have a lot. I have a little pair of paragraph here. I want to read because it is so well written. And I know you have said some of these things already. But I think it needs to be in the interview. It is on page 210. You have your book with you. HM: 1:11:42 I got it right in front of me. Yeah-yeah. [crosstalk] SM: 1:11:44 Could you go to page 10? And if you could read that last paragraph at the bottom there the stairs to Kent State shootings, I would rather have your voice in mind. I think it is, it is beautifully written. HM: 1:11:56 Thank you, okay. The Kent State shootings also occurred at one of the most turbulent cross currents and unnatural in our national history. A gaping generational divide opposing interpretations of patriotism, the democratization of higher education, the tail end of a decade of assassinations, Kennedy, King Kennedy and race riots, Detroit watch DC, the general collapse of comity, and not least of all, but maybe most not most important, the most divisive war in modern American times. We are all in play that Monday noon, when the guard moved out across the commons and students brace for whatever lay ahead. SM: 1:12:34 And then and the last one I have here is on page 213. If you could go to it as well. It is the section here it is the paragraph where it says Kent State was not just Kent State. that was yeah, this is- this is Bill Arthrell speaking and then you responding to what Bill says. Could you just read that paragraph? HM: 1:12:48 Oh, yeah-yeah-yeah. Sure-sure. Yeah. That begins with a quote. Kent State was not just Kent State, said Bill Arthrell, he of the napalmed dog stunt that had so engaged locals, and even alarmed, KSU faculty members, "Kent State was a symbol of everything and indicative of everything." And he might have added a distillation of everything as well, because Kent State on that early afternoon of May 4 is where all the raging waters in the (19)60s. bad and good, evil and sublime. flowed together for one brief, horrible moment. SM: 1:13:28 Yes, that is another really well written. HM: 1:13:32 Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, the paragraph is kind of a paragraph above that is close. Ellis Berns, who was one of my, one of the people who fascinated me from all this. SM: 1:13:44 You want to read that one as well? HM: 1:13:46 Well, I do not know that. SM: 1:13:49 I see him and well. HM: 1:13:50 Yeah, I guess I could. Yeah. Ellis Berns was a friend of Sandy Scheuer [Sandra Scheuer]. And was happened to be walking beside her when she was shot. And he later he just wandered around afterwards, he-he tried to stick his fist in the hole in her neck. It just horrifies me to think about and then he later on, he was so mad, he walked around, he took off his jacket will just cover her blood and throw to a Guardsman. So, this is what else for instead of getting a quote, "I always believed that Kent State was the period at the end of the sentence for the (19)60s." said Ellis Berns, who would punctuate his own May 4 and maybe the (19)60s by throwing his army fatigue shirt, caked with Sandy Scheuer's blood at a Guardsman. "It was at that point when things became quite real. I know there was Jackson State and students killed, but Kent was like the exclamation mark. It was the point where things started to change." He was, he was, he was a really interesting guy. I talked to him a lot. He is out in California and he- if I were going to make a movie about this, I would make him one of the stars. But I think because I just find it fascinating. SM: 1:15:05 You also talk you also mentioned several times, very some excellent thoughts from Jerry Casals. HM: 1:15:12 Oh yeah. Right. SM: 1:15:13 There is two places in the book where you his commentary is excellent. I mean- HM: 1:15:19 Yeah, no, I was I was really lucky to get him to talk to me. He is the devo guy. Yes, yeah. quite famous guy. But I have a cousin who is a- who is- who deals with wine vineyards. And Gary Jerry Casals has a has a wind vineyard. And he knew him. So he got me connected. You never know when a customer is going to come in useful. Yeah. SM: 1:15:41 Could you give? [crosstalk] Could you briefly just, you know, people probably wondering what happened when you do not have to go through all the trials and everything. But there were certainly trials. I know. Mr. Kraus got involved in this a lot. And certainly the all the families did are the four that were killed and all the ones that were wounded. There was some financial reward. But it was not very much for all that happened. But could you get- HM: 1:16:08 A decade really litigation. And it finally ends when the state of Ohio agrees to pay? I think I have this number correctly. 375-350,000 dollars to the families of the dead, the four dead and to the wounded, but almost everything that for the wounded went to Dean Keller, who is I think what was left over the head, if memory serves me was about $75,000 or less, I forget the exact figures, but it was really just about funeral costs for that for the dead. Where the house where the heck after the place [crosstalk] SM: 1:16:46 Yeah. I think that the people that were wanting to get 15,000 or something like that. I know, I think a long gap. HM: 1:16:52 Yeah, the minimum amount. Yeah. SM: 1:16:53 You know, I do not think I just do not think there was justice done to anybody who looks into this deeply and all of what the families went through and oh, my golly, and the whole thing that they can only sue the state as opposed to the individuals is that- HM: 1:17:09 Yeah-yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. They did all this. They did all this and nobody paid anything. I am just the taxpayers of Ohio are the ones that paid the paid the price on this. It is sort of like what happens to major banks, when they when they when they go to bed. They find that they find the shareholders. They do not. They do not- SM: 1:17:33 Could you say a few words about the four who died, who was Alison Krauss. HM: 1:17:40 Alison Krauss was a- had been an honor student and from Pittsburgh. And she was a she was a very, very- How would I put it? She was striking looking in a very late (19)50s kind of a Joan Baez late (19)60s way. And by all accounts, a really nice person. And she was she was active in the protests and against the war. She was often up front carrying a banner because she was tall, and she was striking looking. And she you know, what do you say? The- she had, there has never been somebody that had to targeted or I cannot I cannot think of anything else. Because when you turned around and you saw it and she was killed who was murdered. The you can call it something else. But we are intentionality is concerned. I think you have to say the least voluntary manslaughter. The- SM: 1:18:46 Jeff Miller. HM: 1:18:46 Jeffrey Miller, the Jeff Miller. It is funny the picture that you were talking about that Life magazine, the picture that went out of Jeff Miller around the country was that it was a high school photo and it just looks like it looks like a 14-year-old and the same. He had gone to I think it was Michigan State and transferred it goes to Michigan State. And he has become obviously somewhat radicalized. He was at longest hair. He is, he is, he is very easy to pick out in the photos. Even in the photo used in the cover of the book. You can see him at the front of whatnot. And that is a different photo. You can see him in the front line of people and he was he was in the front line all the way through. A- he got I remember there is a photograph in the New York Times of his funeral Cortes. He was from New York, from Long Island. And I think it was and his-his hearse going through the streets of Manhattan because his father his father learned about Jeffrey Miller's death. Because he was typesetting the story for The New York Times who was a lithograph for-for the New York Times. He was in the composing room when you learned about this, which is just beyond description Sandy Scheuer was a one to be a music educator she was she was in music education major, an absolute sweetheart of a girl. And, and the again she was just oh my god, you were just walking between classes what a college students supposed to do on a sunny day in May and-and absolutely senseless. I think her father was one of the people who just whose hard part was broken by listening to him afterwards, or, you know, reading about what he had to say. Bill Schroeder had transferred from Colorado College. I think it was one of the Colorado schools was a sophomore ROTC as I said basketball player. Stand-up guy in every regard. And the what was I thinking something I was going to mention about him to do to do to do ROTC? ROTC. Yes, fled my mind though some lovely fact about oh, well, this is interesting. I did just as an aside, so a friend of mine named John Pekkanen, guy worked with later years was a Life magazine stringer. And in Chicago, as soon as he had been assigned to go to scan because they knew this thing was going to take place. And he was supposed to, you know, cover it for further. Who was he who is a stringer for AP is a stringer for Associated Press? And so he was he had gotten there. And he arrived about 20 minutes after the shootings. So he, he took on Bill Schroeder as his subject. And he finally found his roommates, they are all gathered in his room. And, and so he tried to talk to them and ask them, you know, who what was, what was he like? And what do you think about this? And the kids would not say anything. Because I think what he what he understood from them from what they told him was that, you know, they were going to have to go out and find jobs when they were through his college, and they did not want this to be a stain on their record did not want to be associated with all this, which kind of breaks your heart-heart in some way too. SM: 1:22:17 Right. HM: 1:22:19 Speaking of that, of the end of the (19)60s. So, again, he was he was doing nothing. I mean, he was simply standing down there looking out and seeing what the heck was going on when, what- SM: 1:22:34 You mentioned. You mentioned one of the other changes that took place, politically was the-the Democratic Party became much more radical. And, of course, George McGovern was picked as the candidate and he was destroyed in the election. But you know, if you know anything about Senator McGovern, he is one of the kindest gentlemen you will ever meet. I have met him several times. I have interviewed him. And everybody say, Oh, my golly, I know he got clobbered in the election. But boy, he was a better man than the man who won. HM: 1:23:04 So he was a complete sweetheart. I interviewed him too. Yeah, the memory telling me that. He said, Oh, he said, he said, I see I did not mind losing the election, he said, but what really made me angry was when they booed my wife at a Redskins game. He was [inaudible] [laughter] SM: 1:23:26 Yeah, well, he was a really good guy. We put them there on campus to talk about the death of his daughter he wrote, you know, she died of alcoholism. HM: 1:23:33 Right. Yeah. SM: 1:23:35 I have got about five more questions here. HM: 1:23:37 Sure [inaudible] SM: 1:23:39 One thing I did not want to say is that someplace toward the end of the book, you said "Finally the grown-ups are in charge now because now the-the students and the radicals are going inward and they are not going to be involved in activism anymore." So that was something that was true. HM: 1:23:54 Oh, absolutely. Did the permissive (19)60s ,the permissive (19)60s- It ended with Kent State and they might have ended before they certainly ended with Kent State. And I can recall just a quick aside the-the that December that January before January (19)69. A year and a half before going to the counter Inaugural Ball in Washington DC. It was an attempt set up on the mall. And this was you know; Nixon protest and it was filled with a bunch of anti-war people. And a friend of mine was the treasurer of the thing so I thought I could and I walked in that tent the tent practically levitated from all the marijuana [laughter] in there and it was surrounded by policemen are just looking the other way but they could they could not have they could not have failed to notice Park policemen that there was a fair amount of illegal weed being consumed inside this and all that was all that- SM: 1:24:47 Was Wavy Gravy there? This is just some quick questions here and what role did them murders at Kent State. And again I in honor of Alan I now say murders. Alan was very I mean, I really miss Alan-Alan was the force to keep this alive from the West Chester University students knew nothing about it had on our campus twice. And he just wished that we would all say it is not the tragedy at Kent State. It is the murders at Kent State. So I always say that now, what role did the murders that can state play in ending the war in Vietnam? HM: 1:24:55 [inaudible] [laughter] That is a really good question. I that is a really good question. I think that the momentum, I think Vietnam war was ending. So I would I wish I could credit them with, you know, at least say that happened. But I think the forces were in play by then. So I think millennium was going it might have accelerated it somewhat. But I do not think you can say that for short. In the war, particularly. The-the war was on an inevitable downward trend. winding down trend. I wish I could give it more credit. SM: 1:26:09 Because I am some historians will say that because this happened in the Midwest, and young Americans died in the Midwest to send a message to those that were so supportive of the war that maybe this war was wrong. And you have a-an interview with a young lady in your book, which is fantastic. She-she was not an active or not politically involved. And she goes home and her parents say, well, you know, they were very upset that she was, you know, they well- they thought she was communist. HM: 1:26:40 Exactly. I know, I know. You know, remember, we threw those words around. So yeah, those days, too. Yeah. We just pigeonhole people by a couple of words. They were commies or they were whatever they were. And the words mean, no more than-than the words we throw around. Now do the- yeah-yeah. No, I remember that. That went- SM: 1:26:44 Yes. when did it- HM: 1:27:02 So, she went there guilt by so talking about guilt by association. SM: 1:27:04 Yeah. When did the (19)60s began in your view? And when did it end? If it end? HM: 1:27:12 Yeah. I think the (19)60s ended at Kent State. And I think the (19)60s began with Jack Kennedy's election. So, I would say (19)62 to June to May of (19)70. SM: 1:27:26 Have you? Have we healed as a nation from the Vietnam War? And if so, why? And if no way? HM: 1:27:35 That is a, that is a really interesting question. Well, you know, I think we have more so than we more so than we have. And I do not think we you could not say it is complete healing. It is interesting, one of the effects of the Vietnam War was to end the draft and the end the idea of national service. And I think that is been a big mistake in American society, I think we need to have national service. I just do not think it has to be everybody, you know, putting on a battle Hillman going off to wherever you would go. But I think that idea of national service was the man. That is what that is what the war, the war brought, the draft brought people together of all sorts of shapes and categories and sizes. And I think that is been a big loss not to have not to have some kind of national service, mandatory national service. SM: 1:28:39 Now, the-the Vietnam Memorial was opened in 1982, which many people believe it is the first time that Vietnam vets were recognized for their service. The only time in American history when our veterans when they came home from war were treated pretty poorly. And- HM: 1:28:57 Oh yeah, absolutely. SM: 1:28:58 -and so, and I know Jan Scruggs and-and Jack Wheeler in the group and vowed Mr. Dewback that created this have done a tremendous job for their nation and for our veterans, but it has done a tremendous job in terms of Vietnam vets and their families and in terms of remembrance, it is not supposed to be a political entity. It is about remembrance, but has not healed our nation at all. HM: 1:29:20 I think it has healed the vets to some extent. And I want to say here too, I think that one of the greatest continuing ed inequities in in in America today is-is the unwillingness to treat Agent Orange. Everybody in Vietnam, who was exposed to Agent Orange for-for them they should be they should be compensated for all sorts of diseases. That was a horrible thing to do is a horrible thing to rain down. paraquat on your on your own troops. And that was an inexcusable act to the people of Vietnam and the people And then the soldiers serving in that country, I think, I think that is one of the greatest injustice is. That is that is almost a war crime. As far as I am concerned. SM: 1:30:11 I am going to get about three more questions here. One of them is just a general question regarding those people who served in Vietnam and the anti-war movement, those activists who genuinely wanted to end the war. I personally consider both of them heroes, both groups. And I know that a lot of VNFs do not like those anti-war people. But many times they will put in there unless they were seriously against the war, and not against us. That is that is your thoughts on that on the concept of heroes for both the true activists who were against the war and not the vets and the soldiers themselves who served? HM: 1:30:54 So sure, no, I mean, I think I think nobody should have had to have been heroic. I mean, I do not divorce should not have been fought. But the fact that people went there and fought bravely and protected their-their not only their country, but their but their, you know, they were there. They were selling their fellow soldiers. That is, of course heroic to do. And I think people and I, I think that, you know, the people who risked a lot of, you know, a lot to protest the war are heroic in my mind, too. Because I think it was, in fact, in a legal war, and it should not have been fought. So yeah, I think there is room for heroism in both camps. SM: 1:31:39 Yeah. And I think those Fulbright hearings with John Kerry and all the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, man, they played a major role and-and- HM: 1:31:48 -that I would agree with absolutely, yeah-yeah. Yep. SM: 1:31:51 And I got one last, I just want to say something Dean Kahler is an unbelievable person. I have met him a couple times. And he is on my Facebook, I do not talk to him at all. But he is, what a great human being, oh my God. And he is so sensible in everything he states and when he talks about any subject, and I, when he when he talked about the-the guns that were in Kent State, and again, it was you again, it is a tremendous context that you put in with him and his words, that, you know, I am a hunter. I knew, I knew they had bullets and those guns if you see a weapon, you know, they have bullets, but I thought they protect me. HM: 1:32:34 Yes, I know. Isn't that something? Oh, my God. Yeah, no. Yeah, yeah. [crosstalk] That overwhelmed me when you said that. I agree. SM: 1:32:42 Every time you have Dean in the book, it is you better be listening. HM: 1:32:49 And to go through what he has gone through and not be bitter, I think is a triumph of the human spirit. SM: 1:32:54 My last question is always something like this, I want you to go to the very last page to 228. And I just had one thing to add after you if you could read that last paragraph where it says here. HM: 1:33:14 Let me get my glasses on. Okay, here we are here. Here are those of final thought the best thing that could happen for those who still carry the Kent State shootings, or the Vietnam War, gratingly close to their hearts is to get beyond who did what, when. In an interview during the 20, 20th anniversary commemoration in 1990, Janice Murray Wesco talked about an earlier speaker who had vowed she would never forgive, forgive, quote, “It tore my heart out, I will never forget. And I think there are real important lessons with this. But if there is no forgiveness, there is no healing, and the murder goes on forever.” Then I added on then at the end- SM: 1:33:52 That is very [inaudible] HM: 1:33:54 -that she blew me away that interview and then I talked to her. And she just, she was quite something. She is a she is a real person. SM: 1:34:03 My last question is this. HM: 1:34:04 Yeah. SM: 1:34:06 People that are going to be listening to this tape could be 50 years from now. HM: 1:34:10 Yes. SM: 1:34:10 What message would you like to deliver to young people, high school students, college students, and even all Americans and people around the world? What lesson would you like to pass on to them for them not to forget? HM: 1:34:28 Do not be afraid to stand up for what you know is right. SM: 1:34:32 Now, that is good. HM: 1:34:35 Okay. I want to have to think about that. Yeah. Yeah. Good. Okay. SM: 1:34:41 We are done. I want to thank you very much of I have been interviewing Howard Means the book is 67 Shots Kent State and the End of American Innocence. And thank you very much. HM: 1:34:56 Okay, thanks. See, this is a lot of fun. SM: 1:34:57 And we will be emailing you with the video as soon as possible. HM: 1:35:02 Okay. SM: 1:35:02 Okay thank you for taking the time have a great day, bye now. HM: 1:35:06 Thank you. You do the same, bye. 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