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Dublin Core
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
Rights
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
Language
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English
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Date of Interview
6/11/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Armine Aksay
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
42:15
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Rights Statement
This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Armine was born in Istanbul, Turkey along with her one brother, Arman. During her time in Istanbul, she attended an Armenian high school and sang in her church choir. in 1990, she moved to Salt Lake City, Ohio and got married. She then moved to New Jersey while she worked in NYC. Her and her husband eventually settled down in Binghamton a decade later and had a daughter, Christie. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Armine was born in Istanbul, Turkey along with her one brother, Arman. During her time in Istanbul, she attended an Armenian high school and sang in her church choir. in 1990, she moved to Salt Lake City, Ohio and got married. She then moved to New Jersey while she worked in NYC. She and her husband eventually settled down in Binghamton a decade later and had a daughter, Christie. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Istanbul; Armenian genocide; religion; Sebastia; Turkey; World War; Ottoman Empire; traditions; culture"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Istanbul; Armenian genocide; religion; Sebastia; Turkey; World War; Ottoman Empire; traditions; culture</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Armine Aksay
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 11 June 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
JK: Okay this is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s Special Collection Library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is June 11, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:15
AA: Armine Aksay.
0:17
JK: And where were you born?
0:18
AA: In Istanbul, Turkey.
0:20
JK: And who are your parents?
0:22
AA: Uh, my father’s name is Harutyun Gümüşyan and my mother’s is Filor Gülep.
0:30
JK: And where are they from?
0:32
AA: Uh, they are from, uh, my father was born in Istanbul, and my mother, uh, oh no–eh, they–no they were–my father was born in Yozgat and my mother was born in Sivas–Sebastia was the old name, yeah.
0:48
JK: And, uh, were they Armenian? Both Armenian.
0:51
AA: Both Armenian.
0:53
JK: And did they live in, uh, Istanbul in, uh, for the majority of their time before coming to the United States, or?
1:05
AA: Um, my mother lived in Istanbul until, uh, 1994 and my father passed away in Istanbul, uh, in 90– I believe 1993. Um, so they were in there until that time.
1:21
JK: And, um being from– being Armenian and living in Istanbul, what was that like?
1:34
AA: Um, being Armenian in Istanbul, uh, is like um, the same like whoever, you know, is living in there but except we were Christians and, uh, the rest of the, uh, people were Muslims and, um, well I went to Armenian school, uh, in Istanbul. I was graduated from Armenian, uh, high school so we have churches, uh, schools, and, um, a lot of community activities still in Istanbul. Yeah.
2:04
JK: And, um, during– did they– did your family ever have any, um, stories about the Armenian genocide, or did they experience coming from Armenia or going to Istanbul or?
2:19
AA: Okay my grandparents, uh, had the experience so they had to move, uh, after the genocide, 1915 Armenian genocide, they have to they had to move from um different cities uh to Istanbul, uh. My grandmother from she was not from Sebastia but she was from Erzincan, Erzincan. And she moved to Sebastia after the genocide with her two-year-old daughter, um, because they– she had a husband and, um, parents and relatives and they all perished and she was the only one from her family. And, uh, she, she, she was– she escaped basically from Erzincan to Sebastia there he found, they found each other with my grandfather and my grandfather in Sebastia his name was Abraham Mosikyan. Um, he had a wife and a son so he was in military service at that time during the genocide and when he came back he could not find his wife and son and, um, after years–oh I do not know how many years, he found his son only in Lebanon. Uh, somehow he–the, um, you know, I guess he was exiled to the desert and then after that, um, they, he survived and he wa– he lived in Lebanon and he was married at that time and when my grandfather found him and, um, so my grandma and my grandfather got married, uh, in Sebastia and after that they had, um, eight more children, um, and when their children grew up, uh they came to, um, Istanbul. My grandma came to Istanbul. My grandfather had passed away, uh, in Sebastia. And my father’s side also um my grandfather, Ardaşes Gümüşyan was deported to uh Syria– exiled to Syrian Desert. There, and he was engaged to my grandma at that time and uh after four years living in tents, uh, tents he was able to come back and they got married. And later on, I think 1950s he came to Istanbul. Yeah, they moved because they were not comfortable still in, uh, the, you know, the cities that they were living so they moved.
5:09
JK: Wow. So, both your–on you mom’s side, their–her parents and your dad’s side they–genocide.
5:17
AA: They experienced ̶ they had the– yeah genocide.
5:20
JK: –And with that, did they– so they experienced people who did not survive and they–did they have to go through the, um, desert walk?
5:31
AA: Yes. They had, uh, my yeah, my grandfather was–at the Ardaşes Gümüşyan, he, uh, I know that he had some experience of– and they were walking in the desert, uh, but before they reached the desert, they were going to kill them all. But my, uh, another Turkish officer came, um, and then he said just leave them, leave them alone or something like that so that is how he, he got survived and then he was in the desert right after that but otherwise he was not, uh, he was not going to be, you know, in the desert even–yeah, he was not.
6:16
JK: That’s crazy. So, through each of the like each village that uh people lived in they would come and get them and then–
6:26
AA: Yeah, they were, they were what I was told that they were getting old men over I think twelve years old or something like that and the– taking them somewhere and then, uh, no news. You know, they would, either they got killed or they were exiled or deported or something happened and then the women and children, uh, also they did not know what to do so they had to escape if they had the chance, you know, they find the opportunity to, uh, escape but yeah. That is all I know. Yeah.
7:00
JK: That is crazy. Did– do you know if they were told in advance the villages like from other people that the Ottoman Empire was coming to take them away, or probably not?
7:16
AA: I do not believe so, they, they did not know anything.
7:18
JK: So, they did not know–
7:20
AA: They did not know anything about that just because all of the sudden the soldiers appeared, uh, and then, uh, you know, they did not know what was going on and– eh– so they had to leave.
7:36
JK: And how did your, um, grandfather on your, uh, I believe it was your mom’s side, uh, find his son?
7:48
AA: Oh, he was, uh, well he was looking, uh, everywhere and, um, and then he was– whoever was coming from other villages or cities he was paying them so if they have any news from them. He was giving gold coins or something like that at that time and then, then finally, he found, uh, in Lebanon I do not know how that happened but it was just, uh, yeah and–and he was married and he had a son. His name was Mardiros and he had a son we– which he named his son his father’s name, Abraham. So– and they were very happy to find each other, yeah, after so many years, yeah.
8:36
JK: Wow and um when your grandparents on both sides had to leave their villages to uh be exiled do you remember how old they were or?
8:48
AA: Oh Uh, my, yeah, I think my because they were getting married early at that time I believe my grandmother my mother’s side uh from Erzincan eh she was seventeen because she had a two-two year old daughter already and uh my father’s side uh my grandma was engaged and I think she was in her eight–like eighteen and then when they got married she was twenty-two, something like that. Yeah, yeah.
9:27
JK: That’s interesting. And um so they were exiled and they eventually most of them got–went to Istanbul?
9:36
AA: After the Second World War they were able to come to Istanbul. Yeah not the First World War. They– we were still there, you know, in the town, they came back and but they did not have anything– all their- the properties the house our businesses, everything was gone so they had to you know they had to be on rent or you know they did not have anything when they came back everything was taken. And, uh, um, then they could not move until, until after Second World War they came to Istanbul. Because I guess it was not still safe for them and to be in the village or another city so Istanbul– because in Istanbul there was a lot of other people like the Greeks or you know French, Greek or uh Jewish a lot of other people were living. So, it was more safer and we had also another reason probably we had Armenian schools in there and churches in Istanbul so otherwise I would not be able to speak Armenian you know yeah I would not know.
10:48
JK: Interesting. So, after they were exiled they came back to their villages and then they–
10:53
AA: Their villages and then they moved after. Yeah, yeah.
10:57
JK: Because usually a lot of people that I have interviewed they did not–
11:01
AA: They did not–
11:01
JK: Yeah come back.
11:02
AA: Yeah, they did not come back. They could not probably that is why they did not survive and you know or they, they were in another country so they– it was hard for them to move back. Yeah.
11:13
JK: Of course. And have you ever visited the villages that your grandparents–
11:17
AA: No, I never had the chance to–
11:19
JK: Would you be interested if you did–
11:21
AA: I would, yeah, I would go, oh yeah. Yeah, I have a– from my grandfather I have a, uh deed, I, I still saved and it is in Ottoman handwriting and with the, um, with the stamp I think Ottoman Empire stamp and, uh, I sent to Michigan University. There was a professor in there and then, uh, he, he was able to translate the Ottoman Turkish to English. He was a professor, this was couple years ago and then, uh, I found out that, uh, that two of them– one of them was the, uh, the paper that he did the military service– he completed, and the other one was a deed for a property, for a land and a– and a store in Yozgat, I still have it. And I guess he had it but them after the genocide that deed was not good anymore so he could not you know he could not take it. It was–
12:29
JK: It is crazy that he kept it still.
12:31
AA: [laughs] Yeah.
12:33
JK: So, um, when they had to be exiled from the villages, they– did they have like stuff that they could bring or not–
12:41
AA: They could not– no– they could not take anything. Yeah, yeah.
12:45
JK: So, they had–
12:45
AA: They had to leave everything. Yeah, yeah. Because government did not let them to take anything, yeah. Yeah.
12:53
JK: And did your grandparents speak both Armenian and Turkey? Because–
12:58
AA: Armenian and Turkish, yes. Yeah. Because we had Armenian schools in there before, you know, before the genocide, yeah.
13:07
JK: And, uh, when, uh, your parents lived in Istanbul, did they speak Armenian? Both of them speak Armenian and Turkish?
13:16
AA: Yes, both, yeah.
13:18
JK: And, which one was more preferred in your household? Like let us say you are at home or, uh, with you and your family would you guys speak Turkish or Armenian?
13:29
AA: Well, I– because I went to the– I went to Armenian school I sp– I spoke Armenian and my mother always, uh, she was speaking Armenian to us and, uh, and my grandma– grandmothers also. Yeah but both– we were– because we lived in Turkey and in home sometimes we speak Turkish, too. Yeah, yeah.
13:53
JK: So– and you guys went to an Armenian Church in Istanbul growing up?
13:58
AA: Yes, yeah. I grew up– yeah, I was in the church and I was in the school, yeah.
14:05
JK: That is nice. And did you have any siblings growing up? Um, in your household.
14:11
AA: I have a brother, yeah.
14:13
JK: And what’s his name?
14:15
AA: Arman.
14:15
JK: Arman. And he went to Armenian school?
14:18
AA: Yes, he went to Armenian school also.
14:21
JK: And, um, uh, growing up in Istanbul, and you had Armenian friends because you went to Armenian school.
14:29
AA: Armenian school, yeah. And I, I had Ar– Turkish friends also from– yeah from the neighborhood or you know wherever we were.
14:37
JK: But they did not go to Armenian School, right?
14:38
AA: No, no, no. Yeah.
14:41
JK: So, it was both. And they– that is nice.
14:43
AA: Yeah, in, in Armenian school, we had also Turkish classes like, uh, history and Turkish language classes and, you know, you were learning both. Both languages, yeah, yeah that was like.
14:56
JK: Oh, that is nice, yeah. So, a mixture.
14:58
AA: Yeah.
14:59
JK: And, um, did– were there any traditions that your, uh, family maintained in the household in Istanbul that resembled Armenian culture?
15:08
AA: Uh, Armenian, Armenian culture, we like New Years’, um, Eve, New, New Years’ Day, uh, we were making Noah’s pudding. My mother always made that– uh, that is the tradition. Uh, because it– we make a lot of different things, raisins and apricots and stuff like that so that, that was a tradition. And we were always going to Church, uh, holidays like Easter, Christmas, and, um, the Virgin Mary’s Assumption in August. Uh, like major holidays, uh, first to the church and then after that we– my father was taking us to, uh, relatives but whoever is older first and then visiting them. And, um, well we were getting Easter we– they were giving us what– we had the dinner and then they were giving us colored eggs, you know candies or cakes. Chocolate, something like that and that is, that is a tradition. After the church we always go to, uh, relatives’ homes and, you know, yeah.
16:18
JK: That is nice.
16:19
AA: Yeah.
16:20
JK: And, um, did you celebrate– I am assuming Armenian Christmas–?
16:24
AA: Armenian Christmas on January 6th and, uh, the Easter– April. Yeah.
16:34
JK: And, um, when did you come to America and moved here?
16:39
AA: 1990, uh, yeah September of 1990, I moved here.
16:43
JK: And may I ask what was the reason, or–
16:45
AA: I got married.
16:47
JK: Oh, you were– yeah, yeah.
16:48
AA: Yeah.
16:49
JK: And, um, uh, your husband– was he Armenian?
16:52
AA: He was, uh, from Istanbul– same, uh, Armenian, yeah. But he was here earlier, like ten years before, uh, I moved here– he came, yeah.
17:02
JK: And, um, moving from Istanbul, which is heavily Armenian and Turkish, um, traditions and coming to America was it different to see the– see the differences–
17:14
AA: Cultures difference, yes, there is a culture difference. And, uh, here, like in the beginning of course it was difficult to learn the language and, it–and, um, all different cultures in here– mixed cultures and, um, but, uh, well first I came to Utah. Salt Lake City, Utah. Five years I was living in Utah and that was different– we did not– we had Armenians in there. They, uh, they were from Lebanon, uh, after the Lebanon War, I think, I believe 1970s, they moved, uh, here. And then, uh, but like, um, I believe there was like thirteen or fourteen families that was all, in, in Utah. And there was no Armenian Church so there was a Greek Church whenever we had weddings or baptism or Sunday mass, once in a while, we were, we were, uh, in Greek Church.
18:14
JK: And then you came to Binghamton?
18:18
AA: I came– no– I moved– from there I moved to New Jersey and I worked in the city, New York City. Twelve years I lived in there and then, then we moved here, uh, 2008, uh, May 2008 because two years before that I– we bought the, the property, this place. I was thinking maybe this, this will be, uh, retirement place for us. Once in a while we were coming and, you know, staying couple of days and then after that, um, we decided to move. Yeah, and it was good for my daughter’s education because, uh, high school was better in here and also the college, you know, uh, yeah.
19:01
JK: And did you only have one daughter?
19:04
AA: One daughter.
19:05
JK: And what is her name?
19:06
AA: Christie.
19:07
JK: And, uh, does she speak Armenian as well?
19:09
AA: She speaks fluent Armenian and Turkish also.
19:12
JK: Oh, very nice. And, um, so moving to all these, uh different places in America, which one was the most heavily, heavily, uh, Armenian culture, uh–
19:25
AA: Istanbul will be that.
19:27
JK: Oh yeah.
19:28
AA: Yeah, we had all kinds of, uh, Armenian, um, well we had the big Armenian community–fifty thousand Armenians in there and then we had a lot of activities like choirs or schools churches open, uh, thirty-three churches. Uh, not all of them open all the time but, uh, special days we were there– we were in churches that we– there was no community. So, we had– you feel more Armenian when you are in Istanbul. But in here far– we are far from each other we do not, we do not live close by. That is why I do not feel the same, you know, the same thing.
20:14
JK: In, um, Istanbul, did you– was– since there was a lot of mixtures of culture was– did you ever see like, um, differences like people did not like certain cultures or not? Or did you see everyone mixed together well–
20:30
AA: Every– well, I– everyone, uh, was mixed together well and we– all neighbors, you know, our neighborhood we had Greeks, we had Jewish we had Turkish and all kinds of people but we, we did not see any difference. Except, uh, except the, uh, the religion.
20:46
JK: Oh yeah.
20:46
AA: You know, other than that we were like the same, you know?
20:49
JK: Same food–
20:49
AA: Same food, same– everything, the culture same and, you know, uh, yeah, we, we were okay, you know. Except, uh, during the religion but they were, you know, they– once in a while, my father had friends– they were Muslims and then once in a while we went to the Mosque, uh, when they invited us.
21:10
JK: Oh wow.
21:11
AA: But yeah, and then sometimes they were coming to our church, too.
21:14
JK: Oh, that is nice.
21:14
AA: Yeah, for special days, yeah. So, we did not, I did not see any problems when I was living there.
21:22
JK: That is good. And, um, what kind of foods did you experience living in Istanbul, like traditional Armenian food or Turkish, or Greek?
21:31
AA: Oh well I can say Istanbul– because Greeks used Byzantium– it used to Byzantium and Greeks were living in there we had Greek culture and then mostly Greek foods I saw. From my grandmothers, uh also Eastern Turkey, so we had the Armenian food, uh, exposed to Armenian food too so sometimes we were cooking that sometimes the Greek. Um, there’s little differences. We had, uh, I cannot say but we have in, uh, in our culture we have more meat and then the Greek more vegetables. Yeah, so it is just a mix of everything we were cooking, yeah.
22:15
JK: That is really nice. And, um, in New Jersey, uh, in America did– was there a big Armenian culture?
22:23
AA: Yes, there was a lot of churches and a lot of Armenians in there. Um, as well as in the city, New York City. So, um, I had my aunt– I have an aunt in Rego Parks, Queens and another aunt and an uncle in New Jersey. And relatives were there and a lot of Armenians, yeah, living in there, yeah.
22:47
JK: That is nice. And, um, how– what would you consider yourself as, um, a person– how would define it? Like are you Armenian, American or Turkey-Armenian, or, what would you say?
23:00
AA: I think I am– oh, well I feel like I am more like Armenian, uh, because I speak Armenian in home, the food I eat–sometimes I cook American or Italian but, uh, I still have an accent, you know. [laughs] I cannot get rid of that, um, and I do not feel like really, I am an American yet, since I am living here long time like since 1990, twenty-seven years. Um, I feel like I am more like Armenian but we have the Turkish culture also we carry that with us. That is another thing, yeah, so just, uh, quarter, uh, American and quarter I can say Turkish and then half is Armenian. [laughs] 50 percent Armenian, yeah, yeah.
23:54
JK: That is nice- And was it important for your family to, um, teach about the Armenian cultures and traditions as opposed, let us say living here in America and teaching your daughter– raising her– was it important to teach those Armenian traditions rather than American, or–
24:12
AA: When I came here?
24:14
JK: Hmm.
24:15
AA: Yeah, well, uh, yes. If you think about how I was trying to teach, um, my daughter, I remember that I put her, I registered her to Armenian schools so she learns Armenian. Saturday school. Um, so I tried to teach her the language and the songs that I know, you know, so we do not lose, lose our cultures, that is, that is main thing that we have to– yeah, yeah.
24:47
JK: And, um, so you are saying you sent her to Armenian Saturday school?
24:51
AA: Saturday school, yes.
24:53
JK: And so, for normal school she would go to like a normal American–
24:57
AA: Normal American, yeah. I– she was in Catholic school until, uh, middle school, uh, elementary. And then after that she was in public, uh, you know the middle school and the high school. But, uh, she, she, she was speaking Armenian in home when she was little but she did not have any problems learning English when she started to school because, because of the TV probably, she was exposed to– she was watching everything and then yeah, she was, uh, she learned very fast.
25:32
JK: Oh wow, that is funny.
25:32
AA: Yeah.
25:33
JK: And, um, do you still, uh, try to maintain the Armenian tradition now today, since she is old– I am assuming she is much older now and, uh, going to like Armenian church or celebrating Armenian–
25:48
AA: Sometimes she comes, when she is not busy she, she lives, uh, on her own in a different apartment. Bu, uh, if I ask her, uh, there is an event or something that she wants to help me, or, you know, she will, she will come. And because she was– I sing in the church, uh, because she was always in Sunday school and in church, she remembers the mass– uh, the Armenian mass. So, she can sing with me also she tries to help me and she, she has a lot of Armenian friends also from New Jersey, from school, yeah.
26:25
JK: That is nice. So, growing up in New Jersey, she– even though she went to Catholic school and, uh, then public high school later on, did– were there Armenian students in either of those schools or was it through Saturday school?
26:39
AA: Only Saturday school, yeah, she had Armenian friends.
26:42
JK: So, she had a mixture of American friends–
26:44
AA: American and, uh, yeah and Armenian.
26:47
JK: That is nice and, um, how would you define being Armenian, or what is the most important part of the Armenian identity that you are–
27:00
AA: Hmm. Armenian identity, um, is the language. I think we should speak the Armenian language in home. That is very important– that is how keeps us– and also at the, the church, I believe. You know, um, that is how we, um, we learn all the, uh, things that we we never, uh, learned in, uh, Turkey, in Istanbul, in schools. Some of the things– for example we did not have Armenian history in, in–even I was in Armenian school, Armenian high school; they did not teach us Armenian history. Yeah. So, when I came here, I searched and I found a lot of– we had the Kings and Queens or the, the wars with the Persians or whatever. I, I never knew that, so, yeah.
27:42
JK: And, so, um, going back to Istanbul and take, uh, going to Armenians who are there, did they, they taught everything in Armenian I assume–?
28:01
AA: Everything in Armenian except, uh, Turkish language and, uh, Turkish, uh, history.
28:07
JK: So what kind of– so would you just have like Armenian language classes and then like normal other subjects?
28:15
AA: Oh no, we had– everything was Armenian because we had Armenian teachers so biology, chemistry, math, all Armenian. Um, all, all– the principal was Armenian and everything except couple of, uh, classes that we had Turkish–that has to be Turkish.
28:33
JK: And would that be taught by the Turkish people?
28:35
AA: Turkish, yes. Yes, Turkish.
28:40
JK: Interesting, and um do you think the Armenian community here in, uh, Binghamton is going, uh, keep, uh, the Armenian identity strong or do you think we are losing our–
28:54
AA: I do not think we’re losing but the, the problem is young generation, uh, find– they find jobs in elsewhere in different cities so they move. But then new people are moving here, uh, and then we have young– with their young kids and, uh, like that is so– I think once in a while we are losing little bit the community and then after that, uh, we still have. But I think we should continue the church has to continue, first of all, and the language classes we have to have so we do not forget, you know. Our culture has to continue–yeah, grow, yeah.
29:42
JK: And, um, and, um, let us see. So, going back to the Armenian, um, community here in Binghamton, do you think it would be, um, nice to have a Sunday school because I know we do not have one or like a Armenian language school?
30:00
AA: We should have the Armenian language and Sunday school also, yeah, we need that, yeah.
30:06
JK: To help them– to help keep our, um, identity.
30:09
AA: Yes.
30:10
JK: And, um, would you ever– have you ever went, uh, been back to Istanbul?
30:17
AA: Once, uh, after I came here in 1997, I was able to stay there for two weeks because I was working in here so I could not stay longer. And after that I did not– I could not.
30:32
JK: Do you want to go back if you can?
30:34
AA: I would like– yeah, if I had the chance I would like to go but I– the reason is I have to work always and then I do not have a long period of, you know, vacation time, that’s the– that’s the reason.
30:48
JK: And, going back to, um, growing up in Istanbul when you were younger, did you– what were your parents’ roles in the household? Like–
30:59
AA: My mother was home– she was a homemaker but she was a tailor also–a woman’s tailor. So sometimes she was making dresses or suits for other ladies but she was always home cooking for us and, you know, I was helping her clean. And my father was working all the time and then providing everything– all the school expenses that we had or, uh, the, you know, all other expenses he was, uh, yeah, he was working.
31:30
JK: And, um, what were the circumstances, um, so the main circumstances that, um, made your ancestors or your, uh, grandparents leave, um, the villages was the genocide–
31:46
AA: Yes, main reason was the genocide because they were not comfortable in there. Oh, one thing I, I just remembered–my father–my grandfather, uh, um, changed my father’s first name to a Turkish name just because they were, um, he was in school and the other kids were bothering him. And he– they– sometimes they were, you know, throwing stones and stuff like that, uh, because he is Armenian and he, he changed– his name was Harutyun, my father’s name, and then he had to change it to Atik ,which Atik is a Turkish name so they do not bother him anymore. And then, before that also, after the genocide, there was a–the government ordered, uh, to change the last names because we have last names ends with I-A-N so the–our last name was Gümüşyan and he changed it to Gümüşok. Uh, that– so it is close to Turkish– the ending is not I-A-N. So, they were comfortable. But until that time, after second World War, I guess still they were not, you know, they were bothered in there, they had to move to Istanbul to change the place, so, yeah. That is, that is the–
33:14
JK: The government had made people–
33:17
AA: Made all Armenians change their last name.
33:21
JK: Wow.
33:21
AA: Yeah. So, whatever they remembered, uh, any, any kind of last name Turkish, they changed it and, yeah, so, um, so no one knows that they are, you know, they are Armenian. But we were still going to the church or, um, continue the culture and everything but– outside, you know, they were not speaking Armenian when they were out, out of home. Yeah, so, that is the–
33:49
JK: Did they have Armenian churches during that time?
33:52
AA: No, they– during that time all the churches, uh, they were, uh, closed. They made, um, storage– the government made the, the churches storage or they, they were keeping animals or something like that. All, all– that, uh, wherever the genocide happened. And after the genocide, um, also they could not open the churches we do not have any churches in the eastern part of Turkey which we were. Uh, but only in Istanbul so the– because the– in Istanbul we had some Armenians also before the genocide so they– we had to– also they took some of the schools from Greeks and, uh, because same thing happened to Greek, Greeks. Uh, in one day they had to leave the country– government ordered them to leave the country, um, in one day– without taking anything. So, they went to Greece at that time, I do not remember when was the, uh, date but after Armenian genocide I believe. And, so they left their schools and churches so we took over, uh, we– in Istanbul– that is the reason we had–
35:01
JK: –to go.
35:01
AA: Yeah, we had to go to their church and that was an Armenian Church later on.
35:08
JK: So, um, the government really had an influential part like the villages and
35:13
AA: Yes, in the–everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah.
35:16
JK: It is crazy.
35:17
AA: Yeah.
35:19
JK: Um, when– before the Armenian genocide, um, so your grandparents who were living in the villages at the time, what, what were their occupations? Do you remember? Or–
35:31
AA: Oh I– my, um, my mother– I remember my mother's father's– I mean, that side of grandfather, uh, he was, um, making, uh, he was working with metal, making the shoe ho– the nails for shoe horses and that kind of things. Metal worker– and I do not remember my other, he did not tell me what was the ̶ what was his occupation, you know.
36:03
JK: And were there Armenians in Turkish and other, um, people living in the village or was it mostly Armenians living in the villages where your grandparents grew up before the Armenian genocide?
36:16
AA: Oh, mostly Armenians. Yeah. Sebastia is– Sebastia was full of Armenians, maybe few Turkish people– they were coming from other religions. And also, Yozgat also is like, Erzincan, Erzincan also a lot of Armenians were living in there. Yeah, they had a lot of schools. Yeah.
36:38
JK: So, everything was mostly Armenian based?
36:40
AA: Armenian based, yeah, but there was also Turkish and Kurdish also were living mixed, but mostly Armenians. Yeah. Yeah.
36:52
JK: And would– is there anything else you would like to add?
36:55
AA: Oh! [laughs]
36:57
JK: That you can remember or stories or anything?
37:01
AA: I, I do not know if I, well I, I may remember later on. [laughs]
37:07
JK: Maybe about the genocide or– go ahead, yeah.
37:12
AA: Oh, um, in, uh, what happened was in Istanbul I remember some of the things were going on and, uh, sometimes they were not in, um, the churches for example we want to make a repair or, uh, needs to paint or something, they were not letting us. We had to get the permission from the government, but sometimes for the– for that kind of things was hard to get the permission. And, uh, you know, and, uh, other than that. In– from my grandfather's, I do not know, they did not tell us a lot of things, you know, after the genocide, they were afraid to talk about so they were thinking probably we will go and tell everybody in there so they keep, kept everything, uh, yeah, uh, for themselves. But in Istanbul, I experienced couple of things like they were in schools, school also they sometimes they were telling us if we have less than some students, student population in, in each school they would close the school or something like that. Yeah if it is less than I think two thousand students or something at the time this was in 1980s. We had–sometimes we had pressure from the government. I do not know how is the situation right now. I do not remember anything but, uh, yeah, that is like–
38:50
JK: So, there was still–
38:52
AA: Still uh–
38:53
JK: Something like pressure from the government but not the normal people living in the area.
39:00
AA: No, no. Just, yeah. People were okay with that they never, you know– all the neighborhood was good and but the government still, until now, maybe, they may– they may have, you know, uh, the control. What– once they had told we had passports and the ID, ID cards so we all Armenians had to be thirty-one– the first page of the– of the either pass– passport if you want to have or the ID. Uh and other people did not, they had other numbers, so they were probably controlling all the Armenians whoever left in there with that numbers. This is– they that is the thing that, yeah, the way that you know– they know that you are label, label everybody. Yeah, this, this is a Christian or this, you know. Thirty-one maybe it is a 301(AD) because we accepted the Christianity in years 301(AD). That is the reason maybe they put the thirty-one on the IDs. Um, and then the– when there was a military coupe, uh, in 1980, military took over, because there was a lot of fights in the universities, there was leftist rightist or radical beliefs. And, uh, and at that time, uh, well, a lot of students were in, were put in prison.
40:35
JK: Armenian students?
40:36
AA: Armenian, as well as Turkish. Kurdish, Turkish, everybody, so even if they did not do anything, you know, they did not know who was responsible of that. And, and we had hard times at that time, you know, yeah. Yeah. And yeah.
40:52
JK: Do– how do you because I know, um, the Turkish government still has not– denies about the Armenian genocide. Even America does not recognize it as a genocide.
41:04
AA: Yeah, it was a genocide because when– it– because I believe when, when you, um, when you are, um, getting, like, collecting older men from their homes, uh, that is a, that is a genocide because you take everybody out from their homes and then you just deport them. All of them, all Armenians this is towards all, you know, to one race and that is a genocide. I do not know why they do not accept until now. That is tha–that is crazy. I do not know why. They should because if you, if they do not accept it will continue. I believe it that another genocide will come and then tha– that is going to be terrible to other people, you know? Yeah. So that is what–[laughs] That is what my opinion is.
42:01
JK: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well thank you so much.
42:05
AA: You are welcome. You are welcome Jackie.
42:09
JK: Great. Awesome. I hope you get all the–
42:16
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Armine Aksay
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Dublin Core
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
6/23/2014
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Gregory Smaldone
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
GraceBaradet 1
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
35:00
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
After graduating from Lowell Business School, Grace became a secretary and went to work in Washington for the state department. Afterwards, she worked as the the Ministry of Aid. Grace was a daughter of Armenian immigrants who came to the United States from Greece and Turkey in the early 1910's. Grace has three sons.
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Georgetown boys; Greece; Armenian Genocide; Beirut; Church; cultural identity; Sunday school"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Georgetown Boys Orphanage; Greece; Armenian Genocide; Beirut; Church; cultural identity; Sunday school</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Grace Baradet
Interviewed by: Gregory Smaldone
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 15 April 2016
Interview Setting: Endwell, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:02
GS: This is Gregory Smaldone with the Armenian Oral History Project with Binghamton University’s Special Collection’s Library. Would please state your name for the record?
0:09
GB: Grace Sarkisian Baradet.
0:11
GS: And where were you born?
0:13
GB: I was born in Binghamton, New York.
0:15
GS: What year?
0:16
GB: [laughs] 1928.
0:20
GS: Okay, um, let us start with your parents. Can you tell me a little bit about them?
0:22
GB: Yes. They were Garabed and Annagils Sarkisian, Annagil Konjoyan Sarkisian. My father a Garabed was born in Harput in a little village called Çarşamba. And he came to this country in 1912. He left behind his wife and his son that was one years old. And I presume he came here either to work and send for them or make money and go back. But then the genocide occurred. And he lost his son. He could not find him. And it took many many years and he finally through people that he knew discovered that his son was in a Greek orphanage on the Island of Corfu and ready to be sent to Canada. And I presume it was when the Georgetown Boys, have you heard of that project?
1:24
GS: Please.
1:25
GB: That was–they were sending boys there to work on farms. So, my brother, actually half-brother, was not happy about that. He wanted to go to Canada. So my father found him and arranged for him to come to this country. And I cannot remember what year it was. I can probably look it up. So they were living in Binghamton. And someone here Mrs. Bogdasarian, Alice Bogdasarian’s mother-in-law knew my mother from the orphanage and said I have a woman that I think would be appropriate for you. His wife, my father’s first wife died during the genocide. And so they wrote, sent pictures, decided it would work out and then my father arranged my mother to go, by that time she was in France, in Marcy, to go from Marcy to Cuba. And they got married in Cuba ̶
2:31
GS: Wow.
2:32
GB: And came back to Binghamton.
2:33
GS: Okay, and what date did they get married in?
2:35
GB: They got married in 1927, May.
2:38
GS: Okay, and they settled down in Binghamton.
2:40
GB: Yes.
2:41
GS: Now I am assuming that both of your parents spoke Armenian?
2:44
GB: They did.
2:45
GS: Okay, so let us move on a little bit to your childhood. Did you have any brothers or sisters growing up?
2:49
GB: I had my older half-brother. He was like seventeen years older and a younger brother, he was five years younger.
2:58
GS: Okay, did you and your brothers grew up speaking Armenian in the household?
3:02
GB: Yes.
3:03
GS: Okay, was it because your parents taught it to you, like spoke to you in Armenian?
3:08
GB: Yes. They spoke to us in Armenian. Turkish, when they did not want us to know what they were talking about. [laughs]
3:36
GS: Did they speak in, how good were your parents at speaking English?
3:21
GB: I think they were fairly good. They read and spoke English and wrote. And when I was away, my mother would write to me in English, because I never learnt to read and write Armenian.
3:36
GS: Did they speak English to you when you were very little as well as Armenian or was it almost entirely Armenian?
3:41
GB: They, I think my half-brother spoke to me in English because when I started school I could speak both languages.
3:50
GS: Okay, so you had both in the household.
3:53
GB: Uh-huh.
3:53
GS: What would you say you and your brother conversed in primarily?
3:55
GB: English.
3:56
GS: English primarily? Would you switch to Armenian when you did not want other people know what you were talking about?
4:01
GB: Not necessarily. But when my parents would be talking to me in the Armenian I would reply back in Armenian.
4:07
GS: Okay, did you and your brothers attend church regularly? Did you attend an Armenian language school? Did you attend the Sunday school?
4:17
GB: We did not have a priest here. We would have visiting priest maybe few times a year. So we would go. And as far as Armenian school, we did not have Sunday school. An Armenian school, I think Mr. Bogdasarian started Armenian school. And I tried. My brothers, Oh, my older brother spoke Armenian and read and wrote in Armenian. So he knew that. My younger brother did not. He had a disability.
4:48
GS: Um, Okay, so the church only had official service a few times a year you said. Where there any other functions that would occur in the church more frequently?
5:01
GB: Well, they had dinners but mostly during the summer all the Armenian families would gather and go to a farm in Port Crane.
5:11
GS: Can you tell me a little about that?
5:12
GB: Oh, my goodness, every Sunday we would have to get up early to go there because there were not that many picnic tables available. My father always wanted a picnic table. So, it was very rustic, it was as the cows were walking around and it was just a farm. And I think we paid maybe fifty cents to go into the owners. And most of the Armenians went every Sunday and there were not that many cars in the thirties. So the few people that had cars would go ferry them back and forth in the morning and then ferry them back and forth at night. And Mr. Bagdasarian was one he had a truck. And he would put packing boxes in the back so can you imagine how unsafe it was. We would sit down on these packing boxes with the food in the middle and he would take everybody. And then come back take the rest. Then at the end of the day as I said we, he do the reverse until my brother, older brother got a car. A Model A and then he would do the same thing. Helping people, and they stop on the way to get ice from the ice company.
6:28
GS: So this would be like a frequent Sunday event over the summer.
6:32
GB: Yes.
6:33
GS: And how many families usually were participating?
6:35
GB: Oh, I would say at least ten, at least ten if not more.
6:42
GS: How large the portion of the community was that?
6:47
GB: I really do not know, maybe about half. There were a lot of kids. There were few families that they would camp there during the week. Put up a tent.
6:59
GS: What kind of food would you bring with you to the picnic?
7:02
GB: Oh, yes. Kebab, Pilaf, watermelon, desserts, vegetables whatever.
7:11
GS: When you said that there were sometimes dinners at the church. When would these be and for what purpose?
7:19
GB: Usually they would be after we would have church service, after Badarak and they would have a dinner. They would be just as a gathering for everyone.
7:31
GS: And who would usually prepare the meals?
7:34
GB: The women. Women’s Guild of the Church. The men would do the meat.
7:42
GS: Okay. Um, can you tell me a little bit more about your parents? What were there professions? What was the highest level of education they achieved in the US?
7:52
GB: Well, my father came from a rural community in Turkey. And he worked in a shoe factory when he came here. So his level of education I really do not know. My mother was born also in Harput. But she came from the city. And she did have some education and she was sort of a teacher in the orphanage. She was a young girl and her parents put her in the Danish Orphanage to protect her. Her sisters were married and she was the young girl so they thought they would do that. And I think she went home on weekends. But she was mostly in this Danish Orphanage.
8:41
GS: Did she ever talk to you about her experience there?
8:44
GB: She really loved it. And Mrs. Peterson was the head of the orphanage and she really liked Mrs. Peterson. And then she had something else that was very interesting that I do not know you may have heard you may have not heard before but her nephew was a little boy. And they wanted to keep him safe. So they brought him to this orphanage, his parents, and asked Mrs. Peterson if she would take him in. And she said no, it is a girl’s orphanage I cannot take a boy. And my mother pleaded she said please let me watch him I will make sure he does not bother anybody. So she relented and my mother had her nephew Harutun, I do not know for how long. [Phone ringing] excuse me.
[Recording paused]
9:37
GS: Resuming Grace Baradet’s interview.
9:40
GB: All right, my mother, so she took her nephew, Harutun, who was a Konjoyan. And she took care of him and then the older sister who had been married and widowed, her sister Sara worked for the German Orphanage and she took him and kept him for a while. And then the oldest sister Yasah who had been married and widowed and took him. And somehow they all went to Beirut. And her older sister was able to sell her house for I do not know for eight gold coins. So they lived on some of that gold in Beirut until the sister, the oldest one found out about the Nansen passport. Have you heard of that one? No.
10:31
GS: Please!
10:32
GB: I have a copy of it. This Nansen passport was founded by Friedrich Nansen [Fridtjof Wedel-Jarlsberg Nansen] and he was Swedish, philanthropist [Norwegian explorer, scientist, diplomat, humanitarian and Nobel Peace Prize laureate] and I do not know it all, and he–this was for immigrants to go wherever they want. So she found out about this, her sister Yasah. And she took this nephew, her daughter and some older woman on this Nansen Passport to France. I have a gold coin that they lived on as a memento and I have a copy of the Nansen Passport.
11:14
GS: We would love to take a look at that.
11:16
GB: Yeah, it is interesting because I did not know about it until I went to France and met my cousin.
11:25
GS: We are looking at the Nansen passport right. Now Certificate– So, moving back to your childhood, would you say that you socialized with mainly Armenian children, non-Armenian children, some combination of both?
11:45
GB: Combination of both.
11:47
GS: Would you say that they were separate spheres like you and your Armenian friends and your non-Armenian friends?
11:52
GB: Yes.
11:53
GS: How did that come about? Who were your Armenian friends?
11:57
GB: Well, my Armenian friends were–we lived in neighborhoods and on the west side there was a whole group of Armenians. And we sort of associated with them and some were young people, my age. And then, my American friends of course were from school and neighborhood.
12:19
GS: Okay. Um, what was it like being an Armenian in school? Was it an identity that you bore proudly or was it something people aware about; was it more of an exotic identity that people did not understand?
12:34
GB: I do not recall all that they really question that. I think that I do not remember anybody questioning it or saying that, you know, what are you. I think we accepted that.
12:50
GS: When you were growing up in what ways did your parents try and maintain a sense of Armenian identity for you and your brothers?
12:58
GB: Well, we spoke Armenian in the house. And then of course when there was church we would go to church. Other than that, Oh, and the neighborhoods; you know the Armenian people in the neighborhood would visit back and forth. They were like family. So, other than that, there really was not another way.
13:17
AD: How about food?
13:18
GB: Pardon?
13:18
AD: Food?
13:19
GB: Food, Oh, definitely food. Yes. And of course my parents would get, for my father would get a newspaper printed in Armenian. And if there was any news–I was young, you know I really did not understand or did not really care and if there was some news he would get it that way. If it was interesting to me they would pass it on.
13:43
GS: So you said you only had church service a few time a year. If there was going to be a church service, how likely was it that you and your family would go?
13:53
GB: Very likely. We would go.
13:55
GS: What kinds of conditions would it take for you guys to have missed one of those church services?
14:01
GB: Probably illness.
14:03
GS: Illness, so when it happened it was important to go, was that the case for most of the community as well?
14:08
GB: I think so. It was also a chance to get together and socialize after church.
14:14
GS: So, the church was as much as a social space as it was a religious one for the community early on?
14:20
GB: Yes.
14:21
GS: Would you guys have any events at the church outside of the context of a priest coming to perform the Badarak?
14:28
GB: Oh, programs. Contest, I do not really do not know how to describe it.
14:34
GS: What kind of programs?
14:35
GB: Well I think the children were taught to get up and recite poems or stories. In, uh, Christmas time, there would be Santa would come and bring something for the children.
14:48
GS: And this would always happen in the church?
14:51
GB: Yes.
14:51
GS: And it was always for the Armenian community that these events where happening
14:55
GB: Right.
14:55
GS: Okay, moving on a little bit to your adult life, did you attend a university or–?
15:02
GB: I went to business school.
15:04
GS: Where at?
15:05
GB: In Binghamton, it is called the Lowell business school.
15:08
GS: Okay, and what has been your main profession on the course of your career?
15:12
GB: Well, I was a secretary. I went to work in Washington for the state department. And then when I left I was the Ministry of Aid.
15:22
GS: Where at?
15:25
GB: US State Department.
15:27
GS: Did you marry?
15:28
GB: Yes.
15:28
GS: Who is your husband?
15:30
GB: My husband was Richard Baradet. I met him in Washington. He was in the service. He was a marine. And we continued to live in Washington, or, actually in Tacoma Park, Maryland. He went back to college to the University of Maryland.
15:45
GS: Now, was your husband Armenian?
15:47
GB: No, he was French-Irish.
15:49
GS: French-Irish. Was it important to your parents that you marry someone Armenian?
15:55
GB: You know they never expressed that and they loved Richard. He had lost his father when he was three and his mother when he was seventeen. So, they became his parents and he really was wonderful to them. And they really loved him.
16:12
GS: Did– would you say that you, growing up, had a desire to marry someone Armenian? Was it something that was important to you?
16:20
GB: No.
16:21
GS: Do you know if that was a popular anxiety among people in the community? Were there other parents who pressured their children, were there children who said they only wanted to marry Armenian?
16:30
GB: Yes. I think most of the Armenian parents wanted their children to marry an Armenian.
16:36
GS: Why do you think that was?
16:38
GB: To carry on their identity, to carry on their heritage.
16:42
GS: And you think that for them was important?
16:44
GB: That was very important.
16:45
GS: Okay. Did you and your husband have children?
16:49
GB: We have three sons.
16:51
GS: Can you name them please?
16:52
GB: Yes, the oldest one is Kevin, and the next one is Timothy and then our youngest was Brian.
16:59
GS: And how old are they now?
17:01
GB: Oh my Gosh. Kevin is fifty. He will be fifty seven in this year. Timothy is fifty-five and Brian passed away when he was forty four.
17:16
GS: I am so sorry. Did you raise your children to speak Armenian?
17:25
GB: I did not but my mother lived with us and she talked to them in Armenian. Now they understood and they can say some words but they really did not speak. However, they were brought up Catholic but they went to Armenian Church as well.
17:42
GS: Okay, for starters where did you and your husband raise your children?
17:45
GB: We lived in Binghamton, New York.
17:47
GS: Okay, so what, why did you and your husband decided to raise your children Catholic as opposed to Armenian Orthodox?
17:56
GB: When we got married in 1954, I had to get married in the Catholic Church because that was a requirement.
17:05
GS: A requirement by whom?
17:07
GB: A requirement by the Catholic Church that we bring up our children catholic.
18:10
GS: Otherwise his priest would not have sanctified the marriage?
18:15
GB: Correct.
18:15
GS: How did that make you feel?
18:19
GB: I thought it was Okay. It did not bother me.
18:23
GS: It was not important to you that your children be raised Armenian Orthodox?
18:31
GB: No, I do not think I gave it a thought to be honest with you, because in the end, they went to both Churches. We only had church maybe once a month or not even that, and they would go to the Catholic Church in the morning and then go to the Armenian Church. They were part of Armenian Youth Group that Maryanne Rejebian and I started.
18:54
GS: Can you tell me about that? What was this youth group?
18:56
GB: We started this in the eighties and we thought the Armenian children of our children’s age should be together and experience that part of it. So we decided to start this youth group. We did not have a priest at the time. But we had the youth group and we had maybe about eighteen children. And we would get together and go on outings. We would have maybe play, go ice skating, and go to the Arena to watch hockey game or we would have bowling and just get together and I think once a year we would have a, I cannot even remember what we would call it–a sort of retreat.
19:54
GS: Okay. And where would the retreat go?
19:56
GB: Well, the one retreat we had was at a lake, Oh My Gosh I have forgotten now where. It was a lovely place and it was over the weekend. And by that time, we did have a priest.
20:11
GS: What was your primary motivation in starting this youth group?
20:16
GB: It was to keep the children together, to keep their Armenian identity and to get them to know each other better. And to have a childhood like we did raise together.
20:30
GS: Did you try and speak Armenian within this youth group trying to encourage the children to speak it or there was not enough of a consistency, fluency to allow that?
20:40
GB: There was not a fluency to allow that.
20:44
GS: So, it was in that way that you were able to maintain your childrens’ Armenian identity, even though they were raised in the Catholic Church?
20:51
GB: Yes.
20:54
GS: What other ways were you able to teach them about Armenian?
20:58
GB: Well, as I said my mother lived with us and she spoke to them in Armenian and she would cook Armenian food and she would make Corek, the Armenian bread and they would help her. In fact, the neighborhood children who were not Armenian would smell it and come and sit on the back porch, waiting for the bread to come out of the oven.
21:20
GS: Oh my God!
21:20
GB: Yeah. [laughs] It was really cute.
21:23
GS: Well, they know what is up, sure they get the best. So, did your sons marry?
21:33
GB: No.
2:34
GS: No, none of them married?
21:35
GB: No.
21:35
GS: Okay. When they were growing up, did you ever talk to them about, you know, if they were to marry about whether they should marry Armenians when they should raise their children in the Armenian Orthodox Church?
21:47
GB: No, I did not.
21:49
GS: How would you identify yourself? Would you say you are Armenian, Armenian-American, an American-Armenian, an American?
21:56
GB: American-Armenian.
21:57
GS: American-Armenian? Why would you choose that term?
22:01
GB: Well, I was born in this country. And I feel that it gave my parents a wonderful life, a safe life and so they were really grateful to be here. And so I feel that American-Armenian describes it the best. And I am proud of my Armenian heritage.
22:23
GS: How do you think your children would identify themselves?
22:26
GB: American.
22:27
GS: They would not use Armenian?
22:29
GB: I do not know. I really do not know.
22:32
GS: What are your thoughts on the Armenian Diaspora in general? Do you think that it was a survival mechanism after the genocide, do you think it is more part of a natural migratory pattern, do you think that is getting stronger, is it getting weaker, is it losing its identity, is it becoming more cohesive?
22:53
GB: I think that it was a way of survival that they had to leave, they had to go someplace. And most of my cousins ended up in France and they are still there, that is on my mother’s side.
23:06
GS: In Marseille?
23:07
GB: No, not in Marseille. Most of them are outside of Paris. And one was near Leon. And we went there and visited and got to know them, my husband and I. In fact, the two older boys when they were fourteen and sixteen, because the nephew that my mother and her sisters saved wanted them to come after my mother had died, he wrote and said that he wanted our two sons to come and visit. And they went for the whole summer and they loved it and they got along. They had a little bit of French in high school, junior high and a little smattering of Armenian, and they went and had a wonderful time.
23:54
GS: How do you see the Binghamton Armenian Community today? Do you think it is strong and getting stronger, do you think it is at risk at losing its identity?
24:04
GB: I would say, I thought it was at a risk of losing its identity because most of us were older and the younger people moved away after college to get their jobs they settled wherever their jobs were. However, it seems to be revitalizing. There are some young families that have come in. One is a professor at SUNY. I do not know if you have met him, Pegor, I cannot think of his last name, Aynajian ̶
24:31
GS: I think I am about to be in contact with him soon possibly ̶
24:34
GB: Okay, and his wife and they have three children now little ones, and there is another Armenian woman whose husband is not Armenian and he is a pharmacist and they have a little one, they have moved back or they have moved here. And there are several other young children, so these little ones. And it looks like it is kind of coming back, hopefully.
24:56
GS: Now, do you see, do you think that an important part of the Armenian community is the maintenance of Armenian language or do you think the community exists above the language?
25:09
GB: I think it exists above the language because I think the church is a nucleus that brings everyone together.
25:16
GS: But, as you talked about with your own family, you know, being Armenian Orthodox was not necessarily important having an Armenian identity, so do you think it is the Church as a physical space or the church is a religion institution that is important for the community?
25:32
GB: I think it is both.
25:34
GS: But you think it can survive with one being more important than the other as your community survived with you know only sporadic church services?
25:43
GB: Well the younger generation does not speak Armenian now. And I think it can survive that way. And most of the priests now speak English. So the Sermons are in English.
26:01
AD: I have a couple of questions. When you were growing up, do you remember in your house anything like your mother decorate the house pertaining to Armenian culture, you know like, maybe something she made with her hands like a little crochet–?
26:23
GB: Doilies, yes.
26:24
AD: Doilies, okay.
26:25
GB: Not crochet, needle work. You know they have this very fine needle work that they did, beautiful.
26:33
AD: Yeah, so did she teach you how to do that?
26:36
GB: She did not teach me how to do that but she did teach me how to knit and to sew and to embroider because she was a wonderful seamstress, taught me how to make things, clothes but as far as decorating the house outside of the needle work no.
26:57
AD: That was it?
26:58
GB: That was it.
26:59
AD: Was there any like any wall decoration that maybe pertaining to scenery of the homeland?
27:12
GB: No. When she came to Cuba, she probably just brought her clothes with her. She was not able to bring much more.
27:23
AD: Did they ever go back to visit the homeland?
27:27
GB: No. They never wanted to. And they really did not talk about their homeland that much either.
27:35
AD: Oh, they have not talked about?
27:37
GB: Not so much about what happened. They would talk about how wonderful it was and even though with the genocide, the Turkish neighbors were wonderful. And but because they lost their families, they were very sad about that. And it was hard for them to talk about that, their families and what happened to them. So, honestly I really do not know other than what happened to my father’s first wife and his son. I really do not know too much.
28:15
AD: They never referred to like nostalgic memories?
28:20
GB: Nostalgic yes.
28:22
AD: They did?
28:23
GB: The wonderful lives they had. And what they did growing up and my mother would talk about Christmas and the biggest thing to get was like a piece of–an orange was a gift. That was a big gift.
28:40
AD: How about Easter?
28:42
GB: Easter, they would go to church. In my mother’s family ̶
28:45
AD: How about eggs?
28:47
GB: They did the eggs and I continue that tradition with the onion skins. Yes, I still do.
28:57
AD: Because that is not American, that is Armenian.
29:00
GB: But I continue that.
29:02
AD: No, you boil the egg. Can you tell us how you make it?
29:06
GB: Oh, you collect the onion skins from onions during the year until you have a lot and then at Easter time, what I do is I layer the onion skins in a pan and I gently put the eggs in on top of it and layer more onion skins on top, and then I put a little vinegar so that it holds the color and then you bring it to a boil and you turn it off and let it steep for 20 minutes so it is hardboiled. It gets a beautiful sort of a mahogany red color.
29:42
GS: So it is just a way to dye them?
29:44
GB: Yes, it is a way to dye them but also signifies the blood of Christ.
29:50
AD: Because I grew up in Istanbul and Easter in my mind represents red egg.
29:58
GB: Yes.
29:59
AD: Because always Armenian friends would give us those eggs ̶
30:03
GB: Oh!
30:03
AD: So and I never seen that in anywhere else.
30:08
GB: I think the Greeks do that.
30:10
AD: Yes, the Greeks do that too because there is also some Greek population, so Easter represents red egg to me. So, yeah they did not talk about the past?
30:30
GB: They spoke lovingly about the past and the life they had but my father was young when he married and he came here I would say in my memory I think he said he was like nineteen or twenty. And so he married young and he had this one year old son that he left behind with his wife and they were caught up in the genocide. And she died and he ended up in an orphanage, a Greek orphanage.
31:00
AD: So, like for example painting those eggs is an Armenian tradition very much so.
31:04
GB: Yes.
31:05
AD: But like when you were growing up was there anything, for example when we entered the house, we took our shoes because this is not something we learn in this culture, it is like you know were taught is there any tradition that they say as Armenians we do that, like do you remember anything?
31:29
GB: We did not. I think my parents wanted to be Americanized because they were so happy to be in this country and be free and safe. So we never really went took off our shoes. We always went in the back door almost every friend; no one used the front door. I do not know whether that is a tradition or not but it just seemed to be that way.
31:56
AD: No, I mean not just taking off the shoes, something else, I do not know anything pertaining to Armenian culture, you know like this is how you treat your elder for example.
32:12
GB: Oh! Okay, you always, is when someone elderly they came you always serve them water with a plate under the glass. The glass on a plate, always.
32:24
AD: From what you said I gather that you took care of your mother when she got older so, is this a trend like in the community like when people get older?
32:43
GB: I do not think it is a trend. You know my father had died and my mother, we had Richard and I, my husband and had I moved back here from Washington. He got a job with IBM and so we bought a house and my father and mother lived with us. And my father died in 1960. And we had our first child in 1959 so he just knew him for a year. And he did not know our other two sons. And my mother was a widow. And she was a wonderful grandmother and they loved her and so we lived together.
33:27
AD: How about your other Armenian friends? Did you see that happening like they took care of their elderly?
33:37
GB: No.
33:38
AD: They did not.
33:38
GB: No, but I do not know, they did not have to or it was not necessary I do not know but no. I think, we were probably the only ones.
33:50
AD: So, there is like no much inter-dependency?
33:57
GB: I do not know how to answer that. They, I cannot think of any other a young couple that had their like mother-in-law, mother living with them.
34:13
AD: Okay, that is pretty much like westernized, like assimilated–
34:20
GB: Oh, and because it was necessary. I mean I did not want my mother to live alone. And I had a younger brother who had a disability and he lived with us a part of the time and then he was in Broome Developmental and we would bring him home on the weekends.
34:43
AD: But you said yours was unique case.
34:46
GB: I think so, I think so.
34:52
AD: Is there anything else you want to ask?
34:55
GS: That was it, thank you very much Grace.
34:57
GB: I want to show you the gold coin ̶
(End of Recording)
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Interview with Grace Baradet
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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Date of Interview
4/25/2017
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
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Louise Kachadourian Kontos
Duration
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43:46
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English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Louise Kachadourian Kontos
Interviewed by: Jacqueline Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 25 April 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
00:03
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with the Binghamton University Special Collections Library Armenian Oral History Project. Today is April 25, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record?
00:15
LK: My name is Louise Kachadourian Kontos.
00:20
JK: Um, where were you born?
00:22
LK: I was born in Binghamton, New York.
00:27
JK: And where were your parents born?
00:29
LK: My parents were born in what is now Turkish Armenia but it is in, in Armenia, Turkey. It is today Turkey.
00:41
JK: Do you remember what city or town or a village?
00:45
LK: My mother ̶ My father was born in the village of Har[put], Anoushavan and, and my mother was born in Hoğe, the village of Hoğe.
01:03
JK: Uh did they live there their entire lives or they came to the United States.
01:09
LK: They lived them up until the time of the, the Turkish massacre.
01:13
JK: And when did they ̶ do you remember when they left or was it before after the Armenian genocide.
01:22
LK: My father must have been a teenager when they came to his village and they had to flee. And he, he, they were the Euphrates River was close by. So whether he fled in the Euphrates, I know his brother did. And his brother will ̶ lived with a bullet in his head. And they dared not take that bullet out. When because the fact that was so closest brain, so he lived entire life with that bullet in his head. That was his older brother. Minas, who lived most of his life in France, and then in in Yerevan, Armenia. And my mother was a teenager, no, she was maybe ten, eleven years old. When she was ̶ her mother has sent her to the or ̶ to the orphanage. She tried to get through the lines with her brother, but they would not let her through. So she brought him back home. And after that she never saw him and he must have been about, he must have been about five or six years old. She must have been about eight or nine years old.
02:39
JK: And they never found each other.
02:42
LK: They never found each other and they never, she never returned. She tried for years to find him to track him down because he must have been about as I said, about five years old. And he was a redheaded boy. Mama remembers and she wanted to find him she could not find him she, she called every time a priest came into town she would ask questions and hope that she some somehow the word Mardin, an area where they have taken him and people had said they had seen him but she never saw him never ever heard about him.
03:25
JK: Um did, did uh how did they hear about the ̶ what was happening and had to flee did they-
03:36
LK: Well they started coming to the villages apparently from what Mama said they started coming taking, um taking families and people and transporting them on a march and taking their valuables away from them. They would she said they ̶ in her village, they took her grandfather and peeled his skin because he would not tell them where he they had hidden their, their valuables. They would, and then they took a pregnant woman and slit her abdomen, for the fetus to fall out. You are going to hear all these uncomfortable things. I am telling you, you are not going to like them. These are stories my parents related it as we grew up.
04:30
JK: They would tell you?
04:31
LK: All the time, they always my mother always talk she kept telling me that I would be another Joan of Arc that I would do something for you. She did not realize what, what it entailed. But anyway, um these are stories she ̶ we were children. We could have been five, six years old and she Mama would sit and tell us the stories and we would we would sit and cry with her.
04:58
JK: And she experienced them like firsthand? She experienced them firsthand?
05:03
LK: She experienced she said the children were so hungry. They would eat the greens on this, um, and when they, they had no water they were urinate and drink the urine and because they had no water they were-
05:18
JK: This is on the march?
05:20
LK: No This, this was could have been on the march. I do not remember that part of it. Mama did not go on the march she was she went to the orphanage where the Danish Danimarka ̶ the Danish uh missionaries took the children off the streets. That was where many of the ̶ and that was why so many of the Armenians became Protestant Armenians because they were converted. They did not convert them. They just preached to them. And this is um, Mama was not on the march. Mama, Mama somehow fled through the mission ̶ through the orphanage. She went from the orphanage. She had an uncle in Beirut. Or I do not know how he got money to her somehow. But Mama remembers playing the stock market. She was only a little girl. She was high and low. And she I remember her relaying those stories about the stock market and how she wanted to make to make some money to come to America. I really it is, you know, as you bring these stories, these questions up. It is things that I have forgotten. I wish I had related these things earlier. I have a tape with my father, where he told me his stories about his escape and how he fled and how people from America sent money for him to come to America. And when he came to America, he worked. He paid them back. This is how most of them got came here. Let us see. Yeah. Mama from there. I remember from the orphanage, she said her hair. Her head was so full of lice that they used to scrub her head to get [indistinct] because they could not take ̶ they had no baths, they would not ̶ no bathing, nothing. These Danish missionaries would wash, wash her hair and scrub her hair to get the lice out of her head. [indistinct] I, I only know the Armenian terms. I am assuming it was lice because [inaudible] I have not used those words in years. I do not use them ̶ there is no reason for me to use it. But um from there, she went to Beirut, Beirut Mama went from Beirut to Marseilles. I know she talked about Mars ̶ Marseilles and then [inaudible], another place she ̶ went to but keep asking questions I do not know.
08:21
JK: So how did, did she ̶ did your mom separate from her parents?
08:26
LK: Her father was already here in America. Her father had fled. His father had sent him right away, because he was a teacher. He sent him to America because it ̶ the soldiers were after him. The Turks were after him because they were going to kill him because he had beaten up a Turkish soldier. And they were-the word was out that they were going to come after him. So his fa-his father in whatever way was ship him to America. And my grandfather that was my grandfather died here in America in um in Massachusetts. He died of consumption, tuberculosis because he worked here in the in the mills, no one to take care of him and neglected himself and he contracted consumption. So he died here in his, his Cemetery in Lowell, Massachusetts in it is the Edson cemetery. And my uncle Garabed is, um, is buried there right next to him. And he died here in America too but he, he came here after and that is about it, that is all. He came after his father and his father had left there must have been a small estate or something left some money for them. So they divided I guess the percentage the brother gets more money than this sister because I do not know their ̶ I do not know. Whatever.
10:10
JK: [indinstict] back then.
10:11
LK: Whatever. But whatever that was whatever money was sent to her. So that she could come.
10:21
JK: Um, what about your mother? Or your mother's mother, so your grandmother.
10:26
LK: She died as soon as she ̶ they took the boy away from her. She died out there in the field. That was all she heard Mama heard. They came in took a little Harutyun. His name was Harutyun that is why my brother or your grandfather was named after him. He, he was when they came to take him she, she died there the field in near her home. That is all I know. I remember Mama saying also, also my grandfather had sent money to her to come to America and bring the family to America when he worked here in America at the mills. He sent the money to her, I remember Mama saying this. And instead of instead of picking the family up, this is before the um genocide. She ̶ my grandmother bought a house thinking that her husband is coming back home. And the genocide started after that.
11:36
JK: And she lost everything?
11:38
LK: Well, she died along with it.
11:43
JK: And then that was how your mother got into the orphanage system?
11:48
LK: Well she went to the orphanage when she was trying to take her brother with her that her mother was sending them both together. When she got through the lines, the lines and they would not let her through with her brother. They would let her ̶ Because they were holding on to all the little young men, and he could not have been maybe five, five years old, four or five years old. She would march with him to take him too but she could not get ̶ She brought him back home. She never saw him after that.
12:20
JK: Terrible. Um, your brother, my grandfather, Harutyun Kachadourian you were saying how your father lived in the mountains in a village and-
12:33
LK: He, he fled, he fled, and I do not think with any family, except with his family members. And I do remember up in Worcester, Massachusetts when I spoke to some of the Armenians up there. They told me that they lived in one room four families, every one family had a corner. And they said my father was so ̶ he was the only one he would go and find food find bread and he would bring bread, whether he would whether where he would get it from he would bring it and feed his brother and his family. His brother and his brother had at that time, maybe two or three children. And um ̶ but I remember the, the village people from my father's village said, my father was so [speaking in Armenian], so clever. So, he was he would always find ways to come in, bring food to feed the family. He was only a young boy himself.
13:48
JK: And this is back in, uh, Harp-
13:51
LK: In Ashvan, Ashvan, Ashvan my father they call them Ashvanse my mother they called Hoğetse because they came from Hoğet, the village of Hoğet. Papa came from the village of Ashvan Ash-Anooshavan I think, I believe it was Anooshavan and we called it Ashvan.
14:14
JK: And were they close nearby the two towns? Or no?
14:17
LK: I do not think so. Ashvanse was near the village of Korpe. I know that Korpetse because my father's cousin, um, Ohanian was ̶ and his son is out in California. He is ̶ became a lawyer Ohanjan Ohanian. There was a judge in Washington and became a judge out in California. And he-his father was from the village of Korpe and Korpe was near Ashvan that I know but Hoğ was, I do not think was near-near my mother's village. No.
14:58
JK: So then how did they meet? They met in America or ̶
15:02
LK: Here in America. My father was a single man he came here to Binghamton New York. He, he ̶ weekends he was one weekend he was going an Armenian from Binghamton by the name of Nigerian, Louis Nigerian was going up to Massachusetts. And ̶
15:27
JK: So going back to how ̶
15:29
LK: Oh my father was. So one weekend Louis was going up to Massachusetts. He asked my father if he wanted to go. And of course, these young men were looking for brides. So he went up there. And in Worchester, Massachusetts, my father I do not know whether it was Worchester ̶ he-somebody told him about this girl, and my mother worked in ̶ for the Biltmore Hotel. She was a salad girl and she worked in some other place too because in a mill or something, because he, he went to the shop where she was working and he saw her and apparently Papa had been engaged to another girl before that. And he and ̶ but that did not work out because that girl wanted this and this for her family and he wanted a diamond ring she wanted, she wanted fur coat she wanted this for her mother. And so my father broke it off and in then I then he saw my mother in the slipper shop. She was working as a slipper shop then, and, and they and she saw when she saw him she, she did not like him at first. She said she did not want it, you know, but I do not know where she was where, because my mother was in Providence, Rhode Island and how she got to Worcester. I cannot remember the story, but she was worked in the south Biltmore Hotel in Providence, Rhode Island. And when she went the orphanage, she was designated to, to work in the kitchen. Because of her size or something, whatever she was older that boy, girl and they wanted to, and she worked her way ̶ she, she went to the classes, she went to school. She did. And before they found out and they found out that you they wanted to put her back in the kitchen. She was already established in the classroom, but she did not do. She did not want to work in the kitchen. She wanted to work. She wanted to go to school. And that was why my mother was an avid reader. She would love to anything I brought her own books in Armenian you know, she was sit down all night long and I would go on a convention with her. And I brought a book about Antoni the general who fought against the Turks. She, she sat in the toilet in the bathroom, because she did not want to keep us awake. She sat there with a light there and she sat and read that book all night long. She was so she loved to read, she loved to study; she and she was very bright and my cousin John often says that my mother, he ̶ his mother never taught him anything is you another Armenian. My mother would sit down and make us before we could get money to go to the movies. She we had to every Saturday we sat on this couch I will never forget. And all she sits in the middle and the rest of us on each side of her. We had to read our Armenian lesson, before we could go to get ten cents. It was always ten cents to go to the movies. She made the bag of popcorn for us a big brown bag of popcorn did it guess. But that was ̶ oh and she had a teacher. Her name is Belle Mason. Her mother was a judge. They were through the American Civic Association or what she used to come in to, to my mother at home, teach my mother. They took a liking to my mother. And they used to we used to go to her ̶ there. What is now part of Leverson was one of their homes. And we weekends we always used to come with their electric car and pick us up and take us to their house. We used to play with their beanbags out in the backyard. I remember that; grandfather should remember that too.
19:47
JK: Yeah.
19:47
LK: And let us see. And that was, what else can I remember Mama was a reader and an educator. She loved it. Not that she had formal education herself, whatever she learned in school and the orphanage. They wanted her to do KP duty but she, she wanted. She wanted to go to school and learn. And she taught me. She came here and was teaching me about the executive body, the legislative body, the judicial body. She learned all this from being tutored here and going to class ̶ did not go classes because she had little children. She had one right after another, so she could not. So they used to come and teach her at home.
20:38
JK: And did she ever go to school in, in her village, or she was too young?
20:44
LK: She probably went to school Armenian school in her village.
20:53
JK: Do you remember if there was a church there or ̶
20:54
LK: There was and, oh, yes, church. Mama went to my Mom went to the [inaudible] or the, the, the um [speaks in Armenian]. The Armenian church ̶ she went the Armenian church in the morning. Also went to the Paul [indistinct] which is Protestant church, because her father used to preach in there. She learned the Bible, Mama learned the Bible. And she was ̶ went to [inaudible] Church in the morning in the Armenian Church, and the [inaudible] Church. She went to both churches. Now whether she I do not remember her relating whether her mother went but her fa-father was a teacher and he was a teacher and he also was like a minister in the in the church. And that was, that was it ̶ I guess one night he was coming home and they were they went to attack this attack him and he beat a Turkish soldier up a Turkish boy up or somebody. And they were after grandfather found out they were going to kill him so that he got him ready shipped him to America to get him out of the village.
22:22
JK: Did they bring anything with them when they had to leave? Nothing?
22:27
LK: Nothing. Nothing photos. No nothing. No nothing. Oh, except I do have one photo at home with my grandmother with their faces, like half covered and that was there. We have one photo at home. Yeah, we do have one photo. Now where that came from maybe Uncle Charlie brought it because I do not remember my mother bringing many pictures with her.
22:52
JK: They had to leave everything.
22:54
LK: She came with her clothes on her back. That was it.
23:02
JK: Wow! When they ̶ maybe your parents were too young, but did they work ever in their villages or?
23:08
LK: I never heard my mom ever. I do remember this about her uncle. He was hunchback and he fell off the roof. There was no medicine over doctors are something to correct that. And he grew up in that my uncle Charlie was hunch-hunchback. They used to call them Quasi[modo], hunchback guy or something like that there was a nickname for him. But work there? No, there were two young each children, you know. And they work maybe in the fields in the fields, because that was where my grandmother must have been out there when they took her took forcefully took the boy away from Harutyun away from her. And she had they said a heart attack. They were on the field. Yeah.
24:09
JK: So growing up, were you more Americanized or did you have Armenian culture behind that?
24:15
LK: I grew up in a in a building where the every there was no Armenians. We were the only Armenians there. There were Russians and Slovaks and Polaks. And we grew up in that building. And so and we grew up across the street from a [indistinct] Hall, which was a Slovakia gymnasium type of thing and we grew. And when we grew up there, we used to learn teach they used to talk in Slovak and count in Slovak and we learn to count there. And I remember my mother used to send us send me send us to Armenian school. There was an Armenian school on Jarvis Street and it was an Armenian Club and the second floor they had classroom. And Mama used to send me to Armenian classes there. And I think she, she paid twenty-five cents a week, twenty-five cents a week or month I cannot remember. But I remember twenty-five cents. She used to pay. And we used to go I used to go to Armenian classes there. And then whenever I once I started going out of town and going in Armenian communities, I started going to Armenian classes, I found classes, schools where they, they were teaching Armenian. And there were classes at Harvard University that I went to Armenian classes with Dr. Ara Avakian was teaching and I remember I ̶ they were amazed at the amount of Armenian I knew what I had learned and how I had learned the army and alphabet so well and I said they could not believe that I had learned it at home and from my parents from my mother.
26:04
JK: And both of your parents spoke Armenian correct?
26:07
LK: Spoke Armenian very well. And they spoke Armenian very well with one another. If they wanted to say something that they did not want us to know, because we knew Armenian, they would talk rattle back and forth in Turkish. And as much as they, they ̶ the trouble they had with the Turkish that was their that was their second language or first language in were they in their village.
26:41
JK: And how-what was the reasoning behind that? Why did not they learn Turkish instead of Armenian?
26:45
LK: They, they spoke Armenian fluently it was not. It was that the children they grew up with. It was like you were here in America. You speak English. That was your mother tongue here. And Armenian is your second tongue. There is it they are, they are just like the those influx of the Russian Armenians that are coming in their mother tongue is Russian, because that is like American here. So they learn Turkish but, but as my mother got older, because she did not use the language, she could understand it, but it was a little difficult for her to speak it. I remember going to Worchester, Massachusetts in Boston amongst some Armenians and who spoke Turkish. She Mama had difficulty in communicating. She could understand it and she could, but to relay it back it was a little bit difficult.
27:40
JK: Did she know how to write Armenian?
27:42
LK: Oh, yes, Mama read and write very well.
27:45
JK: And did she teach you and your brothers uh-
27:51
LK: -To read and write in Armenian? Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. In fact, right now I teach my grandchildren and I see-I sing it the ̶ I ̶ the alpha, beta which is alpha, beta ̶ that is in Greek. Ayb, Ben, Gim I sing it in Armenian Ayb, Ben Gim they start dancing to what they think that is cute. So they can go almost twelve letters they know Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Yeč, Za I really ̶ I sing it with them and they start dancing to it and they think that is cute.
28:23
JK: And so-
28:23
LK: And Dlouisa she learned to speak Armenian and Greek at the same time she speaks Greek with her father and Armenian with me. So anytime we want to say anything to each other. We talk in Armenian so Demos does not understand.
28:36
JK: That is funny. Did ̶ so you grew up in Binghamton, and you were born here, correct? Uh-
28:46
LK: Right on Clinton Street.
28:48
JK: And did you guys have any Armenian Church or anything to go to?
28:53
LK: We had Armenian churches I said the only way we could go if some ̶ if somebody picked us up and the church came about in 19 ̶ 1927 Vintage I think they, they bought the church and yes we had it but it was in the other south, south side of town It was too far away. And you had to either get a bus and take out and get passes and go and get transfers of downtown Binghamton to get to the south side. And maybe once or twice a maybe we did that I remember but that was it. Mostly the Armenian ̶ Harry Sarkisian used to come and pick us up.
29:32
JK: Do you, uh, did you enjoy when you could go to the church, did you enjoy going and learning about ̶
29:39
LK: You know, I do not know I do not re ̶ it was not that I did not enjoy it. I did not know any different. And then on, on, on Sundays, Sunday afternoon, one o'clock or two o'clock. A Protestant Armenian Protestant Ministry used to come in from Syracuse Badveli Acemyan First, it was Hachadourian then by Acemyan he used to come here to Binghamton. And all the Armenians from the south side, the Protestant Armenians, they used to walk everybody walked to go to church ̶ go to hear him speak. You know ̶
30:16
JK: That must have been nice to see.
30:18
LK: It was it was very nice. I remember. And my choir director, Lilian Bogdasarian used to play the piano when she stopped, I started playing for them. For them. That was, that was at the first congregation church here on the corner of Front and Main Street.
30:37
JK: Uh and did the priest come weekly or was it monthly?
30:41
LK: Oh, no, the priest if we at that time, if we had a priest, we used to have ̶ we were lucky if we had a priest every once every three months, something like that that came in from New York.
30:54
JK: Yeah. And other people I have interviewed. They seem to be like ̶ their family became more Americanized you any ̶ but your family seems that they were ̶
31:04
LK: My mother became Americanized when started doing business work, but that was much later.
31:11
JK: Yeah. Well, it seems like your early childhood that you were very you were introduced to Armenian culture with learning the Armenian alphabet, speaking Armenian, going to church when you could ̶
31:28
LK: Church, but any social events ̶ Oh, I do remember one social event on. We went in the hall that used to be across the street from St. Michael's Church. They used to have a building there. It is not there anymore. But anyway, I remember. They used to have presentations. And they used to have speakers that u-they called [unintelligible] used to come and speak to the Armenians. And I remember my mother teaching me some Armenian poet ̶ some poem and I was supposed to get up and spe ̶ and I got up in front. And I got scared and I started crying. And my father came in and, you know, put his arms around me and hugged me, but, you know, but I was afraid I was I had to do this poem I was only I could not have been maybe five, six years old at that time.
32:18
JK: Yeah. But why do you think your family kept the Armenian culture rather than hiding it away and becoming more Americanized growing up? Can you think ̶
32:33
LK: Because they were Armenian-Armenian, you know, they were. They were and they, they. In fact, even in later years, my mother was reading the Armenian papers she would give it she would say, this is a good article, she would come and make ask me to read it, you know, and she that was how I learned my just listening to my father's reading the paper by phonetics. He was doing like you would do a be is ̶
33:03
JK: Yeah phonetically.
33:05
LK: Phonetically when he was reading the paper that way and I heard it so much more and as I grew up. And I started putting it together that it was much easier to read in Armenian and I could. And when I read the liturgy in church, I read it every all the time in Armenian that makes my Armenian to be more fluent, not in speaking, more so in reading, you see. And the more I look at it and the closer I read the by ̶ the liturgy in Armenian than my-my Armenian gets better, not the converse-the conversation okay, but my reading and writing, so I can read and write in Armenian. My mother was amazed how much I because I was in Brooklyn amongst no Armenians at all. And until I met an Armenian family, whose mother was a patient of mine and she ̶ I used to go to their home and they were all very Armenian and they spoke Armenian fluently and they were very active in the church in New York City. So that, that was it. I, I ̶ they did not say you have to be Armenian they that was just around us. We it was part of our growing up. We did not know any differently.
34:26
JK: That is very interesting.
34:29
LK: And of course, my brothers also grew up. There was Armenian boys in the neighborhood.
34:34
JK: Yeah, yeah.
34:35
LK: Antranig was a little boy. We used to call him Antranig, Antranig ̶ Oh, that Antranig was a general you know and so. And we used to, they used they grew up with these Armenian boys and we used to go to the Main Street Baptist Church. Mama used to make us ̶ send us to the first is a Syrian church Armen-Syria [inaudible] Syrian Church for Sunday school. It was only a couple blocks away. After that, then when they moved away, we went to the Main Street Baptist Church. And we all, we all grew up in the ̶ it was not that my parents kept the American culture away from us. They we were always exposed to it especially once you go to school, you were all your friends are all different nationalities you grow up with. And they when they when they were part of the Baptist Church, all the Armenians in the neighborhood used to go there, all the Armenian boys, they had their own basketball team there, you know, and they're all the boys were Armenian boys there.
35:40
JK: Yeah. So growing up in your neighborhood, you had other Armenians to hang around with and ̶
35:47
LK: Not in my neighborhood no they were all Slovak and Russian and Pol ̶ no Armenians in our neigh-except Antranig. Antranig was the only Armenian boy and um ̶
35:58
JK: And did he go to high school with you or a school with you?
36:02
LK: Not with me with my brothers. He went with ̶ Antranig went to school with my brothers with who else was in-
36:11
JK: Was there any Armenian ̶ other Armenians in your high school or?
36:14
LK: Oh yeah, high school girls. And I you know palled around with the [indistinct] you know all these now they were the ̶ yeah we palled around we hung around with each other afterward not so much in school because we were all in-taking different courses you know, I,I was taking a college course they were taking commercial courses they were you know,
36:45
JK: Did you ever socialize ̶ well did you American friend-did you have Armer-American friends and Armenian friends, correct?
36:54
LK: I had American friends. My, my friend was a,an undertaker's daughter. They only live two doors away and they were ̶ they had a funeral home there. And I grew up with Julie. Julie. I grew up with her She was my only the, only girlfriend I had that I remember.
37:15
JK: And did your American friends, did they know about Armenia and like what was going on?
37:21
LK: Never talked about it.
37:22
JK: Never?
37:23
LK: Never discussed it never ̶ you know that-that maybe You know, I do not remember the they were even ridiculing me or anything like that.
37:34
JK: Mhm. If they ever came to your house, did they ever see anything Armenian that would stand out distinctively or do you recall anything in your home that showed Armenian culture?
37:46
LK: The only thing I remember, in my home that I ̶ my mother used to make a big chart and it had the alphabet. And it had she used to make it so that we would all learn and, and every time even when we move from there to Clark Street, she made the Ayb, Ben, Gim, Da, Yeč, Za she put the whole alphabet there and that was the only Armenian that I ̶ and also when they killed the bishop in, in New York City in 1936 time, time in vintage. There was pictures of him. And I used to be so scared of those pictures. Because at night that was all I could get from my bed room that I could-from there on the wall. I could see his picture. And what did we know about death? We did ̶ I did not know anything about death except when I was in school, a little boy classmate of ours. And in those days, they used to keep the bodies in the home and they used to put a big wreath in the front of the house. You know, there was somebody had died and there was a dead body in that house. There was no funeral homes ̶ funeral parlors at the time. That I know that of. If there was maybe people could not afford it. I do not know.
39:04
JK: You said you had brothers growing up could you name them and-
39:08
LK: My brothers?
39:09
JK: And put their relation to yours? How old they are?
39:13
LK: My brother Harutyun, my brother Aristaks and Arslan three brothers.
39:20
JK: And-
39:21
LK: And Arslan,Garabed came afterward.
39:24
JK: And do they have ̶ they have Armenian names correct?
39:29
LK: Harutyun, Aristaks. Aristaks is the name of St. Gregory the illuminator. His one of his sons Aristaks and they pray with every Sunday in church they pray for Aristaks. Yeah, his name is mentioned every time in the in the church Badarak ̶ the liturgy ̶ Badarak Armenian. Badarak means liturgy in Armenian. And Harutyun, they all went to college they all went to the Harutyun became more of a ̶ into my mother I will never forget ̶ she sent him to Wayne University and Aristaks was going there and they both went to Wayne State University because I guess, I do not know why they picked that school at that time ̶ they could tell you that, that story more than I can but Harutyun was upset with the dormitory [speaks in Armenian] he got up on the bus and came right back home and my mother shipped him right back on the next bus. [laughs]
40:49
JK: That is funny.
40:50
LK: Yeah.
40:51
JK: Why do you think ̶ I want to end off here-why do you think it was so important for your mother to teach her children you guys Armenian?
41:06
LK: Maybe it was something she wanted to carry on ̶ her heritage, you know. carry ̶ and, and it was just second nature to us we did not know any differently and it was it was if they said if our parents said jump we jumped we did not say how high we just said we jumped if they said lay down and die we died because that was what they said we, we obeyed our parents so we did not dare never never would, would we ever talk back to our parents never never, never I never remember any of ̶ even my brothers never. I remember my brother Harutyun ̶ we got ahold of some firecrackers and once firecracker did not go off and he went with his hand and put it in it and it blew up in his hand ask him about that firecracker.
42:05
JK: Oh my god.
42:05
LK: Yeah. I will never forget this. And then another time my mother wanted to send me to the bakery and I did not want to take Harutyun with me and he fell off the roof ̶ off the garage roof and, and yeah and they blamed me because I did not take him if I had taken him he would not have been home to fall off the roof.
42:25
JK: Is there anything else you would like to add about ̶
42:30
LK: No I really do not know that right now. Maybe Harutyun or those-A-Aristaks why do not you ask them? They, they have a-they are, they are interpretation and their, their impression of what, what how they grew up what they grew up what they said to say. Because they were more outwardly, they went to the boys club they went to the YMCA. I could not ̶ I did not go anywhere I did not, I did not have anywhere to go to. You know my brothers went out to the field and they played they played football and baseball I had to stay home and do the house cleaning and you know I did the every Monday Mama washed clothes and that Monday I, I came home and I had to iron clothes. I did the ̶ and the and every Saturday I-morning we had to clean house so we that was my job to clean the legs of the dining room table. The dining room table is still at Clarke Street. And it had these grooves in it all these ̶ and it was my job to clean all these grooves. and I said to my mother one day I said Mama why did not you have more girls? Why did I have to do all the work. [laughs]
43:41
JK: That is funny. Okay thank you so much.
(End of Interview)
Biographical Text
Louise Kachadourian Kontos is a daughter of genocide survivors. Along with her four brothers, she was born and raised in Binghamton. She keeps ties to the Armenian community and teaches Armenian traditions to her daughter and grandchildren. Louise and her husband, Demos continue to live in the Binghamton area.
Keywords
Armenian; Turkey; Binghamton; Armenian community; Culture; Genocide; Stories; Armenian church; Family.
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Interview with Louise Kachadourian Kontos
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4998a4670668f2cd24934fc295caa0be.mp3
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Title
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Armenian Oral History
Contributor
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
An account of the resource
<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
Relation
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
2/5/2017
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Nora Kachadoourian
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
44:17
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
Nora was born in Beirut, Lebanon to first-generation Armenian parents. When she was thirteen years old during the Lebanese Civil War, they moved to Montreal, Canada. Later on, she studied Business Administration at the University of Montreal. She currently resides in Binghamton with her husband. Together they have three children; Melanie, Jackie, and Henry.
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"massacre; Syria; Turkey; Lebanon; language; Civil War; Sunday School; church; Christianity; traditions; food; diaspora; identity; Mount Ararat"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">massacre; Syria; Turkey; Lebanon; language; Civil War; Sunday School; church; Christianity; traditions; food; diaspora; identity; Mount Ararat</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Nora Kabakian Kachadourian
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 5 February 2017
Interview Setting: Vestal, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:10
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s special collection library on Armenian Oral History Project. Today is February 5, 2017. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:23
NK: Nora Kabakian Kachadourian.
0:30
JK: Where were you born?
0:32
NK: Beirut, Lebanon.
0:34
JK: Who were your parents?
0:37
NK: Mihran Kabakian and Meline Kashukchian.
0:43
JK: Where were they from?
0:46
NK: My father was born in Antep, Turkey, and my mom was born in Lebanon.
0:55
JK: And why did they immigrate to Canada?
1:02
NK: Well from Turkey, Antep– my father during the massacre, they moved to Aleppo, Tur– Aleppo, Syria and from there, he moved to Lebanon. And my mom, from Bursa, Turkey, they moved to Syria and from Syria they moved to Beirut, Lebanon. And from there, during the civil war, in 1975, we moved to Montreal, Canada.
1:53
JK: What were the reasons for moving from Turkey to Syria?
1:58
NK: To survive the massacre, they moved, they were being killed during the massacre so the– my grandparents moved gradually from Armenia to Turkey and they were established in Turkey. And from there, slowly, gradually, they moved to Syria and from Syria to Lebanon.
2:31
JK: What happened in Turkey? What was going on that caused– did they have to leave walking– or what? What did they have to do to leave?
2:41
NK: Well they had to leave everything– uh– In Armenia, they had to leave their land, their houses, and gradually they moved to my father, my grandfather moved to Antep. He had a job as a, as a control–accountant controller in the established bank and from there, my father was born in Antep, Turkey and when he was around four or five, during nineteen-fifteen, the massacre, they slowly moved closest areas they could find, Aleppo, Syria. And then my mom’s side of my grandfather was working for– he was a tailor working for the Turkish army, he was a very well-known tailor, so that was how he escaped to Syria. They have them– his family– to move to Syria and from Syria they moved to Lebanon.
4:13
JK: Is there any stories living in Turkey that you can remember? From either side of your family?
4:21
NK: Well my father’s side, my father was young, maybe around four, he was born in Antep but his mother, well, they moved from Antep to Syria, Aleppo, he was– my grandmother’s brother was a lawyer, very well-established lawyer and he worked for the– in Turkey– and then– for the state– and they– my grandmother did not know but after nine–late nineteen–nineteen uh, (19)18 or (19)19, around that period of time, they somehow, they wanted to get rid of him and they hang him. And my grandmother did not know and when she– somebody told her like felt sorry about how they killed my grandmother’s brother, he– they, they told her what happened and my grandmother just did not know about it and when she heard it like that– three days after, she passed away from the news. It was horrifying to hear how her brother died.
6:15
JK: This is in Syria?
6:16
NK: Um, they– yeah they killer her in Turkey and she found out when she was in Syria and she passed away because– three days after she was in shock and my father was like orphan because, you know, lost her mom right after they escaped the massacre in 1915.
6:45
JK: And when did your parents meet? Or where did they meet?
6:51
NK: In Lebanon, my mom and met in Lebanon, through a friend and they got married.
7:00
JK: Which part of Lebanon?
7:02
NK: Beirut, Lebanon.
7:04
JK: And what year was this?
7:07
NK: Uh, late 1949.
7:12
JK: Did they ever want to go back to Turkey or Armenia?
7:18
NK: Uh, no. No.
7:21
JK: Have they ever been to Turkey or Armenia– I mean Armenia?
7:27
NK: Uh, my father has been but not my mom.
7:32
JK: Okay so, he went to Armenia?
7:35
NK: Yes, and also she– he was– because lost her mom, and he went and study in Jerusalem after visit Armenia and then he got the scholarship, he was very smart he got scholarship in Wyoming, United States. That was how he became a chemist, study in Wyoming University.
8:07
JK: After he studied in Wyoming he went back to Lebanon?
8:11
NK: Yes, and he started business in Lebanon, a textile fabric–you know, a textile company factory. He started in Lebanon.
8:25
JK: In Beirut?
8:26
NK: Beirut, Lebanon.
8:28
JK: Did both your parents work?
8:31
NK: My mom also work as– she was a tailor.
8:40
JK: And how long did you guys stay in Lebanon before leaving to Canada?
8:44
NK: We stayed until 1975. During the war, we went to Canada and my father left Lebanon in early (19)80s, after– because he had a factory he had to, you know, take care of it and then he came to Canada also.
9:15
JK: Did your parents go to school, high school or college?
9:19
NK: Yes. My mom went to high school and then went to a school and she became a tailor and my dad had several degrees in Chemistry. He went one semester, or one year to MIT in Massachusetts and then Wyoming University in Cheyenne. He has a degree in Chemistry.
10:00
JK: So how old was your father when he left Turkey?
10:04
NK: He was about four years old.
10:08
JK: Did he have any brothers or sisters?
10:12
NK: Yes, a sister and a brother.
10:15
JK: Are they still alive?
10:17
NK: No.
10:19
JK: Did they come to Canada too? Or– after they left Turkey?
10:23
NK: No, my aunt, her name is Mary Zenian, she moved to– from Lebanon she got married and soon she moved to New Jersey.
10:44
JK: And do they– do they remember anything that they told you about living in Turkey or what they did in Turkey?
10:53
NK: No, just they– to have a better life they– my father helped them and they moved to New Jersey to start a new life there.
11:11
JK: Is there any– before the genocide, did they get along with everyone in Turkey?
11:20
NK: Yes, they, they had jobs like I said my grandfather, his name was Edward Kabakian, he work for the bank, he was a controller for the bank and that was how he met his wife and when the wife came to the bank and they met and that was how they got married and then they moved– a few years after, they moved to Syria to survive because slowly everybody was moving in order to stay alive.
12:12
JK: Was– only the Armenians had to leave Turkey, or what happened that they had to leave, like? They–were they told to leave or they were going to kill them or what?
12:23
NK: Yes, they– while they can because people were getting killed and they already moved from Armenia, left their land, my grandfather, Edward, had land in Armenia, uh houses and they had to leave, they moved to Antep, Turkey and they had jobs there but, it was– things were getting worse because the World War I started in early 1914, (19)15, and, and it was, people in Turkey they were taking advantage of the war going on and so that was why they start to move– things were getting worse and they had to survive. That was how they went to closest cities, Aleppo, Syria, some moved to Egypt to Greece, Europe, France, so they were trying to survive.
13:44
JK: Did any of your family go anywhere else other than Syria?
13:49
NK: Well my mom’s side, from Bursa, to– they moved a lot of my mom’s side of family moved to France also to survive and a lot of people moved to Syria, so it depends.
14:14
JK: Did they ever– so the people told them to leave before they got into any trouble, right?
14:23
NK: Yes, like my father– my mother’s side, my grandfather’s name was Leon Kachakjian, and he was a very well know tailor in Bursa, Turkey. He was doing all the army outfits for the army and he had lots of friends and they help his family move to, from Bursa to Syria to survive because word got out that they were getting killed and there was some good friends of my grandfather he– they help them get away from the area and move outside of Turkey.
15:27
JK: Do you remember what year this was?
15:31
NK: 1915.
15:33
JK: So during the genocide?
15:42
NK: Yes.
15:38
JK: So did both of your parents speak Armenian?
15:42
NK: Yes.
15:44
JK: Did they speak any other languages?
15:46
NK: They also spoke Turkish and English and French.
15:52
JK: Did they write Armenian?
15:58
NK: Yes, very fluent in Armenian and also they spoke Turkish, and because they moved to Syria and after Lebanon, they spoke also Arabic.
16:12
JK: Did they know how to write Armenian?
16:15
NK: Yes, they knew how to write Armenian.
16:18
JK: Was it– Armenian their first language they learned how to write and read?
16:22
NK: Yes.
16:27
JK: Do you have any siblings?
16:28
NK: Yes, I have three brothers and a sister.
16:33
JK: And what is their age relative to you?
16:36
NK: I am the youngest and there–at least the oldest is fourteen years older than me.
16:46
JK: Can you say their names?
16:47
NK: Yes, my oldest brother is Leon, my other brother, Edward, and another brother Varoujan, and my sister Anahid and I am the youngest of all my siblings.
17:05
JK: Do your siblings have Armenian names?
17:14
NK: Yes, my oldest brother name is Levon which is an Armenian name, named after my grandfather who died and also Edouard is Armenian name for [inaudible], and Varoujan is an Armenian name and Anahid is also Armenian name. And my name is Armenian also.
17:42
JK: What is it– do they have any meanings?
17:46
NK: um, not that I know–
17:48
JK: Like Nora.
17:51
NK: Nora means new in Armenian. Anahid is– Ani is an Armenian city, Ani is named after that and Varoujan also means strong in Armenian but that is all.
18:16
JK: When they came to–when you guys came to Canada did you guys change your names to English or French names?
18:23
NK: Well, we– there is a certain version like Levon is Leon and Anahid short for Ani so my sister made it shorter but we kept in our passport is the Armenian names.
18:48
JK: Now did your parents speak Armenian to you when you guys were growing up?
18:53
NK: Yes, Armenian.
18:54
JK: Is that the first language you guys learned?
18:57
NK: Yes, it is the first language.
19:01
JK: Was there any other languages you guys learned growing up?
19:04
NK: Yes, we spoke French also and of course we had to speak Arabic also and we understand a little bit of Turkish.
19:21
JK: Did your parents ever speak Turkish to you so you would not understand in the household.
19:25
NK: Yes. I believe my grandparents, they spoke Turkish and also sometimes my parents also spoke, so we do not understand but we picked up– that was how we picked up the– that was how I know a little bit of Turkish by hearing them speak while growing up.
19:55
JK: Now, growing up, was there a large Armenian community in Lebanon?
20:00
NK: Yes, we– I grew up in a big Armenian community in Beirut, Lebanon. We went to Armenian and also Armenian and French school in Lebanon. The name is Nishan Palandjian Jemaran, which is Armenian.
20:26
JK: Did you guys speak Armenian in this school or French?
20:53
NK: We had to speak Armenian and learn Armenian history in Armenian and we spoke French and French history in French language and secondary language would be considered English. [audio is inaudible] And also, we had to speak Arabic and the history in Arabic language.
21:06
JK: Did you have any Armenian friends growing up? Were they all Armenian, your friends in high school and school?
21:13
NK: Yes, we had a lot of Armenian friends but there were a lot of French friends and– from Europe there were a lot of people from different countries, especially Europe, in Lebanon. It was a very international city so we had different friends from different areas.
21:46
JK: Now, the people you were growing up with, did they have to– why did, why did they– do you remember why they came to Syria– I mean Lebanon? Was it because of the–
21:57
NK: For better jobs and also its Christian country and there was a lot of opportunities for new jobs and we had different schools¬¬¬-French English and so people had the choices that they could enjoy, uh, whatever they prefer.
23:22
JK: Did they – did some come from Armenia or Turkey during the genocide? Do you remember? Like the– your– the students– the Armenian community.
23:30
NK: Oh yes, they used to come from all over to the Armenian school because there was people from Africa, my sister friend was from Europe and they came to learn Armenia in Lebanon because it was very well known–established Armenian school and so they come from all over the world to study at that school.
23:22
JK: Did anybody come from Turkey or Armenia that you remember that had to escape the genocide?
23:30
NK: A lot of people came besides my family from Aleppo and then they came to Lebanon there was a lot of Armenians.
23:45
JK: Did your– do you remember any stories they told you about leaving?
23:59
NK: Yes, it was very hard for them to leave everything; their land, their belongings in order to survive and how– some people helped them survive. Some died on their way to escape, they died because they were ‘fleding’, it depends what areas they were from in Turkey and some were fortunate, some died trying to escape during the massacre.
24:40
JK: Did you go to– was there an Armenian church where you grew up?
24:45
NK: Yes. Within walking distance there was an Armenian church and every Sunday my mom always tried to go Armenian Church and it was very convenient.
25:07
JK: What was it like growing up in Beirut?
25:11
NK: It was very nice area growing up in Beirut until the war, Civil War started and we had to move again. But growing up I had good memories in Beirut, Lebanon and uh and a lot of people that we knew moved from Turkey to survive and then they got established in Beirut, Lebanon. And we had a big Armenian community and it was, you know, the Lebanese people help– the– there was a– growing up– and then it was hard to move again because the Civil War in Lebanon, yes, because the nineteen seventies the war was pretty bad in Lebanon so that was how people moved to United States, Canada, Europe.
26:22
JK: So do you–
26:34
NK: It was déjà vu again for us because again we had to move again from Lebanon to Canada.
26:43
JK: Did you move before Lebanon or–?
26:46
NK: My grandparents move from Turkey to Lebanon. I was born in Beirut, Lebanon.
26:56
JK: Did anybody stay in Lebanon?
26:58
NK: Oh yes, there is a– I have some family– my–some of my aunts are still in Lebanon and some of my cousins. They stayed in Lebanon. There is a lot of Armenians right now in Lebanon.
27:17
JK: Now, why– why would you decide to go to Canada instead of the United States?
27:26
NK: Um, we could have went to United States but it was kind of easy for us– my mom’s sister was in Montreal, Canada and she, she helped us move there but I– we could have moved to New Jersey also because my father’s sister was in New Jersey also but it was easier at that time when we were escaping Lebanon, uh, it was easier to get to Canada somehow.
28:05
JK: Did all of you guys leave at the same time?
28:07
NK: No, my brothers and sisters they moved to Montreal, Canada to Cyprus–they went from Cyprus to Canada. And also my– one of my brothers Edouard Kabakian, he had a– won a scholarship from Lebanon in early 1974 and, uh, he went to Montpellier, France. So since then, he lives in France right now so he moved from Lebanon to France.
28:54
JK: Did he ever join you in Canada or he lived in France this whole time?
28:58
NK: No during– before the war started in 1973, (19)74, he won a scholarship, he was very smart in Lebanon so he moved to France to study and–
29:17
JK: Did he ever move to Canada?
29:20
NK: No he never moved to Canada. He– from Lebanon he move to France because he was studying, he had a scholarship and he had to– he just established– after he study he stayed in France.
29:39
JK: And what did your parents do in Lebanon? What did they– where did they work or what did they do?
29:45
NK: My father opened a textile factory in Lebanon. He was the first person to open a textile factory and he worked there and, and then my brother, Levon Kabakian, he also study– my father send him, uh, study in Switzerland in the same type of, uh field, in chemistry textile– chemistry and from there my fa–brother got his education in Switzerland and then he worked for several textile companies in Canada and my sister also went to university in Lebanon, it is called AUB, American University in Lebanon. And then she continued her education in Canada and also my youngest brother went– study in Canada also, University of Concordia.
31:14
JK: Did– how old were all of you guys when you guys left Lebanon?
31:22
NK: Um, I was thirteen years old when I moved from Lebanon to Montreal. I believe my brother was in–eighteen when he moved to Canada. My sister in her twenties and they moved to Canada.
31:54
JK: So you guys left because of the war that was going on?
31:58
NK: Yes, we tried to escape the Civil War.
32:01
JK: Was there any experiences or any encounters you had while growing up in the area? That was, like, bad?
32:10
NK: Well in 1975 two of my brothers and my sister moved– tried to catch a, like a small boat and then went to Cyprus. From there, they stayed there and then from there they tried to move to Montreal, Canada. But I was there on one side of Lebanon with my mom and my dad was stuck on the other side of Lebanon in this factory. So we did not see each other for at least six months because the borders were tight and there was a, a war going on between Christians and Muslims in Lebanon. It was kind of very, you know, very bad situation because you could not communicate and in order to survive we had to go– me and my mom for a long time, I was young we were stuck in the house and just survive you had to go get water and bread and there was–– everything was shut on one side. People were getting killed and it was a miracle we survived. A lot of neighbors not far from us died because there was a lot of bombs falling, air strikes and, and then, uh, when there was a cease fire, that was when we tried to get our passport and move– tried to move somewhere safe and that was where we1977 we tried to come to Montreal, Canada, I was like thirteen-year-old. Me and my mom when the airports were open, we, we tried to gather our stuff and move to Montreal, Canada and then eventually my dad also came to Montreal, Canada, and also he lost his factory it was destroyed and lost everything so we had to start all over in Montreal, Canada.
35:07
JK: Now what did they do in Montreal? Did they–
35:12
NK: We– I went to school and, uh, and my brothers and sisters they went to school and had jobs and then slowly, you know, we worked and graduate school and, you know.
35:30
JK: Did you guys go to Armenian school at all in Can–Montreal?
35:37
NK: No, we were– we just went to French high school there and a university but we have an Armenian school and there is a big Armenian community in Montreal because Lebanon– and people moved during the war from Lebanon to Canada to United States and they, of course, they started establishing Armenian schools and for the new generations.
36:22
JK: Was there a large Armenian community when you went to Montreal?
36:26
NK: Yes, we had a, a lot– at least three, four Armenian churches and two Armenian schools in Montreal, Canada.
36:40
JK: Did you attend bible school or Armenian language school in Lebanon or Montreal?
36:48
NK: No, I went to Armenian Bible Sunday School, we called it. Yes, I attended but because I went to–when I was young I went in Lebanon Armenian school, I, I did not need to continue learn, but people who do not– did not know Armenian, there was programs they could sign up to learn Armenian and eventually after they, uh, they built the Armenian school– first it was elementary then all the way to high school.
37:31
JK: So after you went to high– finished high school, did you go to college in Ar–Montreal?
37:39
NK: Yes, I went college. I study Business Administration.
37:45
JK: And, where was it?
37:46
NK: In University of Montreal.
37:51
JK: And then how did you end up coming to the United States and living here?
37:59
NK: Um, I was, uh, working in Montreal and also attending, uh, education. When I my aunt in North Jersey, I wanted us to visit her and also invited us to Armenian event in North Jersey. So my mom and I drove there to visit my aunt in North Jersey and she took us to a Armenian church and–
38:42
JK: Do you remember the name?
38:43
NK: Yeah, it is The Armenian Church in St. Thomas, North Jersey. And she wanted us go there for a, I think it was a mother’s day luncheon, after church and I took my mom and we went there and that was how I met my husband, Mark Kachadourian, because he is from Binghamton and he went to that luncheon in North Jersey from Binghamton area to– there was a church’s event. So that was how I met him over there in New Jersey.
39:37
JK: And how did you guys meet?
39:39
NK: In– during– after church there was luncheon sponsored by St. Thomas Church that was how I met Mark Kachadourian.
39:52
JK: But, did you guys, like–
39:58
NK: We just met– the– there was a lot of Armenians attended from Binghamton to the St. Thomas Church in New Jersey and that was how a lot of people met each other during the lunch.
40:17
JK: How did you guys start– did you guys talk with other Armenians, or what?
40:23
NK: Yes, from different region because I was from Canada and my aunt was from New Jersey and they, they– we share a big round table and that was how we met, uh, a lot of Armenians from this area, Binghamton and the New Jersey area.
40:50
JK: So, who was– how did your aunt end up in North Jersey, and which side?
40:56
NK: My father’s sister, Mary Zenian from Syria, shortly after she got married and they move– tried to come to New Jersey, they got in a boat and they escaped the Syria and came to North Jersey in early 1930s, I think. It was around 1930s, they moved to– from Syria they came to North Jersey.
41:45
JK: Now, why did not your father go to–
41:48
NK: My father went to– he had a scholarship to study in Wyoming. He travelled all over and then he came to New Jersey but then he wanted to open his factory in Lebanon and that was how he established in Lebanon after he had his studies in United States, he went back and opened a factory in Lebanon.
42:27
JK: Did he meet your, uh, your mom in– after or before he studied in Wyoming?
42:36
NK: After he studied in Wyoming.
42:40
JK: Was there a large community in the Armenian community in North Jersey?
42:46
NK: Yes, it was big Armenian community, also they have Armenian school in New Jersey and, and a few churches, a lot of churches.
43:05
JK: Now, growing up in Montreal, in high school, did you guys have– did you have Armenian friends or non-Armenian friends?
43:11
NK: We had so many and–French and Armenian friends and Lebanese friends. A lot of different nationality.
43:27
JK: Did you all intermingle with each other or have distinct groups?
43:33
NK: Yes, we mingled with each other, yes.
43:39
JK: But did you have– only if you hung out with your French friends and then hung out with your Armenian friends or they all hung out with each other?
43:50
NK: Uh, some of my French uh they were really interested, uh, talking to my father from work– they always come visit, they like to hear the stories that my father had. But also we had Armenian friends and old friends–
44:14
Unknown: No
44:14
NK: So?
44:15
Unknown: Lady Gaga.
44:25
JK: Okay, so what were some of the family traditions you kept in your household that related to Armenian culture?
44:38
NK: We had several tradition. Its– but we always talked about the Armenian history, um, and how our ancestors tried to keep our heritage going-our culture and, uh, we, we are a nation of rich culture. We have a– our own alphabet– very unique– our own stories and we have a very unique Armenian dance and–
45:31
JK: So can you name some of the examples of the culture that is kept in your family?
45:41
NK: We always spoke Armenian so that is very– keep our children informed with our rich language which is very unique alphabet and, uh, we have very good Armenian songs that we sang and special dances we dance and we always– very religious nation. We are the first Arm– nation to be Christian– to accept Christianity. So, uh, we always kept our religious background and taught our children our language and our religion.
46:34
JK: So what were some traditions that your parents would maintain in the household? Maybe certain foods, songs?
46:47
NK: Uh, yes, we have Armenian song, a very, uh, uh, known– it is a– about our Armenian nation and how we survive and wherever we go, we build a churches and schools and we keep going wherever, uh, we go we always get together and make Armenian food and we have a– our special Armenian Christmas which is always on January 6 and we make a special Easter, we make a special bread. It is çörek, it is called çörek and we have several different holidays, we get together and celebrate and on Easter, always we go church and Armenian Christmas always comes on January 6. We try to go and celebrate. It is different and we have our Independence Day which is May 28, we celebrate. And, of course, on April 24, the genocide we always try to remember and pay our tributes and, uh, that is our cultures keeps going and our ̶ remember our heritage and how our ancestors, you know, went through a lot to keep our Armenian culture alive.
48:45
JK: So what kind of Armenian food did you guys have that was kept in the household?
48:55
NK: Uh, we have– we make of course a lot of rice, we call it pilav, and with a lot of– we have different rice, we call it pilav, which is a very traditional food with pasta– different pastas and Armenian string cheese. We have dried fruits– several different types of dried fruits and, and we have– very similar to Middle Eastern food and its very similar because as a neighbor– when we were growing up we have similar food– Mediterranean– it is a different food.
49:57
JK: Did you have Armenian food in Lebanon, or was it Lebanese food or was it–?
50:04
NK: It is Armenian-Lebanese combination. It is very similar, we have stuffed grape leaves which is similar to Lebanese food and–
50:18
JK: Do you have the Armenian name for what it is called?
50:23
NK: We call it– grape leaves– we call it sarma– yalancı, but which is also certain name are Turkish also, we have a lot of sweet, helva which is also used by Turks and Arabs also. So very similar.
50:53
JK: Would you– what kind of foods would you– or traditions did you have during Armenian Christmas or Easter– Armenian Easter?
51:04
NK: Well, uh, Armenian Easter– we have– we color eggs and then we have Armenian bread which we call çörek which is kind of like braided, nice Armenian bread. We have that and also we have lamb dinner and some rice, things like that.
51:37
JK: Do you ever play the egg game?
51:39
NK: Yes, and after church services has an Armenian tradition. We get together and play some egg that we colored before and we play the egg with each other and then eat some Armenian çörek and celebrate the Easter.
52:07
JK: So, in Armenian, your last name says what you did. What does Kabakian?
52:21
NK: It is, uh, mean ‘kabak’ means pumpkin in Turkish so that is how they call the Kabakian that is our name is from.
52:38
JK: So did your family who lived in Armenia or Turkey, they sold– worked on a pumpkin farm or sold–
52:46
NK: Yes, they had a lot of– in Armenia, my great grandfathers they had land and they had vineyards. That is why they called them ‘kabak’, because they had, I guess, pumpkins and– on their land.
53:11
JK: What about from your mom’s side?
53:13
NK: My mom’s side, her name is Kashukjian [Kaşıkçıyan, Turkish version] I think it is– what its mean is they used to make silver spoons so when they refer about them they meant the family who builds– makes those silver spooks that is what it means kaşık, Kaşıkçıyan that is what it means I think in Turkey.
53:45
JK: What about– the same in Armenian?
53:48
NK: Spoon in Armenian is trgal this is in Turkish; I think it means the person who makes the silver spoons.
54:03
JK: So did the Armenian words– were they similar to Turkish words?
54:10
NK: No, it is because they lived in–– my grandfather on my mom’s side lived in Bursa and they, they had to speak in Turkish and that was how they called them the person who makes the spoons and I– that is why they call them Kaşıkçıyan.
54:44
JK: So how old were you when you got married?
54:48
NK: I was twenty-seven years old.
54:51
JK: And did you– is your husband an Armenian?
54:55
NK: Yes, he is.
54:56
JK: Is he a hund– are you a 100 percent Armenian?
54:58
NK: Yes, I a 100 percent Armenian.
55:01
NK: And your husband?
55:02
JK: He is a 100 percent Armenian.
55:05
NK: And how do you feel about marrying an Armenian? Did you want to marry Armenian– or did it matter?
55:12
JK: Yes, as I said in my family, we were stronger believer to, to meet Armenian and get married Armenian because of all our grandparents and great grandparents went through to, uh, keep our culture our race alive and we– the least we can, uh, do if we meet Armenian and marry an Armenian for our–keep our heritage.
55:50
NK: Did your parents want you to marry Armenian?
55:53
JK: Of course, but it was our choice but, uh, it was up to us.
56:00
NK: Did your ̶ other brothers and sister, did they marry Armenians as well?
56:07
JK: Um, one brother and– who lives in France, married a French but my other brothers and sister married an Armenian.
56:17
JK: Now did they still have Armenian culture in their–
56:22
NK: Yes, they–
56:23
JK: –household.
56:24
NK: –my brother who lives in France, they try to keep Armenian culture and they sometime make Armenian food and invite their friends and introduce them to Armenian food and talk about the Armenian history and they and also their names are one hundred percent Armenian also.
56:53
JK: Now, how important would you say was it to teach Armenian culture to your children?
57:02
NK: It was important, but this– in Binghamton we do not have any Armenian school, we have a small Armenian church and when my kids were young, we always went to– and took them to Sunday schools so they learned some Armenian song and also some Armenian dance and, uh, we used to have every year Armenian dance and we tried to take them so they see how it was, the Armenian culture. We have very small Armenian community in Binghamton.
57:46
JK: Was it hard switching from Montreal which has a lot of Armenian population to Binghamton which has very little–
57:55
NK: Yes, it was hard to adjust, you know, because it was very small Armenian community. But we tried to go sometimes in bigger cities, New Jersey, and Philadelphia and also California there is a lot of large Armenian community.
58:22
JK: Well what made you want to move to Binghamton?
58:27
NK: My husband’s job was here and we met in New Jersey, like I said, in Armenian church and, um, and we, because his job was here so we moved here after we got married in New Jersey we moved to Binghamton.
58:49
JK: So, growing up in Binghamton, have you seen any strong Armenian community or not so much?
59:02
NK: They try, uh, to, uh, keep the Armenian culture and community but it is hard, they need a lot of help. A lot of people are from here– a lot of Armenians, but they all moved and there is not a lot of younger people in this community. A lot of the Armenians moved for– out of this area to the city.
59:47
JK: So do any of your children speak Armenian?
59:52
NK: Yes, my oldest daughter and my two daughters they speak but my son does not speak that well.
1:00:05
JK: So they two –can you name your children?
1:00:08
NK: My oldest, Melanie, second oldest, Jackie, and my youngest is Henry.
1:00:21
JK: So, how come none of them has learned Armenian in Armenian school properly? Like at writing–
1:00:33
NK: Because, uh, we– I could teach them but I– they–there is no Armenian school near us, also they do not have any Armenian Sunday school anymore and also they outgrew, it was for young, young children. And, uh, we have church services every two weeks in our Armenian church. And like it is a very small community.
1:01:13
JK: So, did– do your family in Montreal or North Jersey, do they know Armenian, their children?
1:01:20
NK: Yes, all of my nieces and nephews they write and speak Armenian and one of my niece attends Armenian school and she is going to graduate this year. So yeah, they all speak and write in Armenian.
1:01:46
JK: Were you upset that– did you want your children to learn Armenian?
1:01:52
NK: Yes, we speak Armenian but I can always teach them if they are interested to write also in Armenian and, of course, we do not have that advantage here because we do not have Armenian schools or classes at Binghamton University that they can take. Other universities, they offer Armenian lessons and– but Binghamton University do not provide Armenian language.
1:02:32
JK: How would you describe the culture of the home– household spreading Armenian ideas and things like that? What things have remained constant? Like growing up compared–
1:02:53
NK: We always tried to speak a little bit of Armenian in our household and always sang some Armenian songs and talked about our flag, what it means, different things we always talked about and, uh, we liked to watch different TV shows sometimes that has Armenian articles in it. We are always interested in our culture.
1:03:33
JK: So have you ever travelled to Turkey or Armenia? Back to where your father was born?
1:03:40
NK: Uh, no, no. I have not but my sister’s daughters, they been to Armenia and Turkey also my brother’s daughter been to Armenia recently and, uh, we always ask questions and see the pictures– we are so interested and we like to go one day, visit our homeland.
1:04:11
JK: So you want to go to Armenia someday?
1:04:13
NK: Yes, it is a dream to go Armenia and visit our land and see our churches and to see all of that. It is very important.
1:04:28
JK: So, right now, do you attend church regularly?
1:04:35
NK: On major holidays I try to go, last time I was at church was during Easter. I– it is hard with the busy schedule but I used to go more often than I am right now.
1:04:55
JK: Would you say that you identify as– what would you say that you would identify as your homeland?
1:05:05
NK: It is a– I– it is where my ancestor were. It is–I like to see.
1:05:13
JK: Which country?
1:05:15
NK: My– I consider Armenia my country– my roots– because my roots are from there and I always want to visit and see.
1:05:28
JK: So, how do you view the diaspora? Diaspora. The Armenians in the, the United States.
1:05:45
NK: Um, they are a– they are, they are Armenians that survive and they try to keep the culture alive–they are– it is not easy, uh, being Armenian. It is, it is always we got to remind our self what our ancestor went through for us to be, to have better life here in United States. Their sacrifice a lot for us. What we could do is remember and, uh, keep our culture alive.
1:06:26
JK: So do you think it has its own identity here in the United States or in Montreal compared to Armenia?
1:06:33
NK: Yes, to– of course. We are Armenians but we are not living in Armenia, we are living outside of Armenia and there are differences between us but we are all Armenians, were united. That is what counts.
1:06:56
JK: So how would you identify yourself?
1:07:01
NK: Uh, Armenian, um, that I want to remember where my ancestor came from and keep our tradition alive and our language– use our language and always remember our history and what we went through to be here today.
1:07:28
JK: Would you also identify yourself as Canadian, American, like Armenian first or–
1:07:37
NK: I am Armenian first but I do not forget where I was born and then where I grew up in Canada and–and then I moved to United States. I am a person of multi-culture. [laughs]
1:07:57
JK: Which, uh, country do you think has the strongest sense of Armenian pride? And culture? That you have lived in?
1:08:22
NK: The Armenians in Lebanon. Very, very strong. Also in Canada.
1:08:28
JK: And why do you say that?
1:08:25
NK: Oh, because as– I remember as a– growing up in Lebanon, uh, we– they always talk about the Armenian history how we survive and wherever we go we built our churches and we built, uh– and we stay together and there were strong believer so as a young child I remember how important it was to keep our culture in Lebanon especially.
1:09:00
JK: Was it important for your children to be raised in an Armenian orthodox?
1:09:07
NK: Yes, it is important but it is hard when you do not have a big Armenian community.
1:09:21
JK: Was there anything in, uh, your house that represents Armenian and where you co– come from?
1:09:30
NK: We had a lot of books and my father had lots of books and, um, always pictures and– of our history and we always read and sang the Armenian songs and, uh, we had a lot of poems that we read about how the Armenians survived and, uh, we always, uh, you know, enjoyed our rich culture.
1:10:06
JK: Do you remember any of the poems or songs?
1:10:09
NK: Yes, as– we had a nice Armenian poem– it was always said wherever we go, wherever happens we always built the Armenian Church and Armenian community. No matter how hard they try to erase us from out– this planet we always come– get together, survive and, uh, that was a very strong Armenian poem we always read and remembered.
1:10:43
JK: Do you remember who it was by? Who said it?
1:10:52
NK: I, uh, I do not remember right now but I [laughs] I just cannot recall but it is a famous writer.
1:11:10
JK: So [clears throat] do you have anything else– other than the poems or books or songs like paintings?
1:11:18
NK: Oh yes we have a paintings of Mount Masis and Mount Ararat from our Armenian land, its beautiful pictures and paintings, uh, uh, so when we have a exhibition I enjoy going and looking at those paintings those– we have a lot of Armenian paintings of churches on top of the mountains. We have a lot of beautiful paintings in Armenian history– in Armenia.
1:12:00
JK: So do you think Christianity is an important part of being Armenian?
1:12:05
NK: Yes, because we were the first nation to accept Christianity and, uh, we sacrifice so much to become a Ar– Armenian Christian and it is very unique and our–we celebrate January six as Armenian Christmas and its very old fashion. It is very unique with Christianity.
1:12:44
JK: Do you think it is important for your children to marry Armenians?
1:12:47
NK: Of course, it is their choice as well of course it is important to keep our culture going, our Christianity.
1:13:06
JK: So, do you have anything else to add–or? I think I am all set.
1:13:12
NK: Well just to say Armenians, we, uh, we are a survivors and wherever we go, we get together and we do not forget our language and where we came from and it is not easy to be Armenian but I am very be proud Armenian and speak our Armenian language and culture. I am very proud to be Armenian.
1:13:44
JK: Okay thank you.
1:13:48
NK: You are welcome.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Nora Kachadourian
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Armenian Oral History
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<p>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</p>
Description
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<span>This collection includes interviews in English with informants of all ages and a variety of backgrounds from various parts of Armenia. The interviews provide deeper insight into the history of the Armenian culture through personal accounts, narratives, testimonies, and memories of their early lives in their adoptive country and back in Armenia. </span>
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In copyright.
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<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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English
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Date of Interview
4/25/2017
Interviewer
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Jacqueline Kachadourian
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Virginia Terell
Duration
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53:19
Language
English
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Binghamton University
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Audio
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This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as Armenian Oral History Project, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries for more information.
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Virgina was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian/Turkish parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member in the Women's Guild at her Church. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":31489,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11,"17":0}">Virginia was born in Binghamton to first-generation Armenian parents who came to the United States to escape the genocide. As a child, she was involved in the local Armenian community and continued to do so as she reached adulthood. Later on, she became an active member of the Women's Guild at her Church. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Calibri","16":11}">Binghamton; Armenia; genocide; Greel; Chruch; traditions; community; war; generation; Women's Guild; food</span>
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
Armenian Oral History Project
Interview with: Virginia Terrell
Interviewed by: Jackie Kachadourian
Transcriber: Cordelia Jannetty
Date of interview: 25 April 2017
Interview Setting: Binghamton, NY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:03
JK: This is Jackie Kachadourian with Binghamton University’s special collection library, Armenian Oral History Project. Today is April twenty-fifth, two-twenty seventeen. Can you please state your name for the record?
0:16
VT: My name is Virginia. Last name is Terrell. T, as in Thomas, E-R-R-E-L-L. My maiden name, is a true Armenian name Mangurian which is spelled M-A-N-G-U-R-I-A-N. The daughter of Robert and Marcy Mangurian.
0:39
JK: Thank you. And where were you born?
0:42
VT: Here in the city of Binghamton, New York at Lourdes Hospital.
0:46
JK: And were your parents born in the United States or–
0:51
VT: No. My dad was in–oh– Hadjin [Haçin in Turkish], Armenia. And my mo– and he was born in 1905. No, that was my mother, he was 1889, (18)88 or (18)89. Something like that. My mother was born in Izmir, Turkey. And she was born in 1905.
1:16
JK: And what were– what was the reasoning for coming to the United States?
1:23
VT: Truthfully, I was only eleven years old when my dad died and my brother was only thirteen so I really cannot answer that other than just from what I heard from a couple stories from my mother, okay, after my dad died, okay, that they probably were escaping the genocide. Okay? I mean, that is all I can say, you know? Because, now do you want me to go into the story of the genocide? Okay, how we came–my parents never would talk about it to this day, I never heard my mother talk about my immediate grandparents, my mother’s mother and dad, nothing, not a word. Okay, the same thing with my father other than I–we were able to find out what their names were okay, my dad’s mother was a Sonalian okay, Katherine Sonalian and my–my grandfather, my father’s father was very (indistinct) Armenian, okay and I am sure that is why my brother was named Garry. Later on and my mother only had the one sister, there was just the two of them, but she always talked about her grandmother and she always had the fear of being blind because my grandmother, now I am assuming it was my mother’s, mother’s mother, you know, but do not ask me about her name or anything she would just say she was totally blind and she raised me so I do not know the story behind that, she just would not talk about it. But with my dad when I was born, and I was brought home from Lourdes hospital and I was ba–I am assuming that maybe it was after I was baptized and I was brought home from the hospital and I know I was baptized here locally in the Armenian Church here on Corbett Ave as Repega. Now I do not know how you say that in Armenian to be truthfully I do not know. But I do have the solution that, you know, birth certificates and everything with the Armenian priest that I was bap– I am sure they got re– in fact, I do not know if they have got records of that in the Armenian Church. Ralph had talked about– do they have a record of all the families actually were–
3:46
JK: Maybe, I am not sure.
3:48
VT: I do not– I have never seen it. So I do not know if they ever tried to keep records to be truthful with you. But I, I apparently was baptized Repega Mangur–Mangurian and my mother always said that this is why I thought I was baptized Virginia– no– you were baptized Rebecca then I found the paper she gave me, okay. She said that when I was brought home my father would hold on to me he would do nothing but cry because he would think about his younger sister you know that was murdered and raped by the Ottoman Turks.
4:25
JK: And this is as they were trying to leave?
4:29
VT: I am assuming, I do not know when he came to this country I have got to dig out some papers. I got a whole big box that my brother gave me which maybe he had all the records I do not know. Okay. But because I know Gary gave me their– they got married in 1926 with my mother was a fixed marriage in Connecticut. Because how my mother got here is by my uncle in Connecticut went back to Europe to get a wife and I guess it was arranged for him to have the oldest sister, which was my aunt Mary, was eighteen and my mother was sixteen. And – but the only way he could get married was he had to bring my mother. And, so she came over and she lived with them in Connecticut and somehow or other, my Uncle Harry knew about my dad [laughs] because they got married at [inaudible] It was all– you know they were all pre-arranged. Now how they even ended up in Binghamton, my dad was here he was already established so I think in those cases I think the family– they came. In fact we even talked about it now with all this immigration thing. Do you think they came to the United States– we do not know? But you know I think in those days a lot of uh just talking to some other Armenians their names were changed because they did not even know how to spell their last names okay we got my mother’s Dokmejian but we have gotten it spelled two different ways, you know. So, and I am sure you know I, uh, I know I spoke to her family, their, their name I do not want to put it on there because I uh there is [inaudible] her dad and being an ownership but that that that is not an Armenian name so it was, uh, large, uh, longer and they shortened it and oh nobody knows. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, and–and you just assumed it but it has the I-A-N that is definitely an Armenian name. [laughs] [inaudible] But, uh, so that was the story of that but my dad so we just assuming he saw a lot and he fled over here.
6:39
JK: And he never said anything.
6:40
VT: Never spoke. He never– none of them did. Not one of them. Okay, I do not ever hear them make– you know, talk about it or any– you know. No. You know, I think later in life I think we would have liked to pump I think my brother was [inaudible] very more Armenian than I am to be truth with you, okay. You know because he collected a lot of Armenian things. In fact, he donated a great big Armenian picture it is in the church hall. That frame, I loved the frame more than I liked the picture. Because I do not understand the picture but you know. Oh my brother you know my brother used to be a funny [inaudible] when we were kids, yeah. You know, so you know, later in life you break away from that, you know. And uh, uh, unfortunately, you know, but you know and I am not saying you know down deep in my heart I, I am an Armenian. I mean otherwise I would not even. I, I need to see that early because I wanted, I thought maybe I could get some information about it. Everything I saw there in the books that I read that I got home, well, they are, they are, they are more thorough than the movie. The movie very tried to make it [inaudible] you know, not as bad, but–
7:52
JK: –It is harsh.
7:53
VT: I, I, I got a little emotional you know because I got thinking did they go through all that, you know, because I remember my mother saying now that started basically in casto [inaudible] in the movie, 1914 for the actual slaughtering of the Armenians was 1915. They did kill some but it did not start in past [inaudible] where they were–
8:16
JK: I believe it did, it was how it was depicted in the movie.
8:20
VT: Oh.
8:20
JK: Oh, but I believe it did. They started killing the, um, the researchers and like doctors and uh intel–more intelligent.
8:33
VT: –More intelligent Armenians.
8:34
JK: Yeah, and then it started spreading to uh other parts of Turkey and then.
8:40
VT: It moved to, to little villages. And actually that is where they start with that young couple, you know.
8:45
JK: Is that where your family is– your parents are from little villages?
8:49
VT: I am assuming they were little village you know, I do not know how big Izmir was in those days or Hadjin?
8:57
JK: So they never talked about how, like growing up as a child or, nothing? Wow.
9:03
VT: But they must have known one another because the Kradjians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible] were Hadjinsi–The Rejebians were Hadjinsi, [inaudible]. I do not know if [inaudible] were but Mr.[inaudible] was Hadjinsi. And that is maybe–maybe that is how they moved them here. Leave their, their cities and you know, because my father was a Hadjinsi, okay, and that night I cannot remember what the Kachadourians were. If they were Armenian.
9:33
JK: There is Hadjinsi and Kharputian.
9:36
VT: Okay, okay.
9:38
JK: I ̶ there is two things I do not know.
9:40
VT: Now I know Adrian’s mother I found out was from Izmir Turkey. Where my mother was from.
9:47
JK: Oh, that is interesting.
9:49
VT: Yeah, we found that out later on when I think it was when, well after they were married. Adrian and, and Art. But I guess Adrian brought her mother to Binghamton there later in life. And come to find out okay, now she was like she probably could tell you a lot.
10:03
JK: Oh, yeah.
10:04
VT: Yeah. But how I found out about my mother is, uh, and I was out of high school, I was working at the bank. I was not working at Links. My first job was in the middle of the teller at our school. And so that has got to be in the (19)50s. And, uh, my brother got married. So it is just me, mom, the house the [inaudible] Street and my mother was taking a bath, you know, and she was very independent, you know, independent and that, that I know that when she was calling me, and she always had the accent, “Jenny”. You know like that. You know, and I went, I said “What is wrong mom?” She said I cannot, my back is itchy at one spot and I cannot seem to get to get the wash cloth on it and I need help. And when I try to move my arms, my arms are aching, okay. So I went in there and I saw the scar just below her shoulder. Okay. And I thought, mom, what did you do? Did you [inaudible], when did you get hurt you know? And she just, you know very nicely. She has told me it is a bombshell. I said is a what? You know. And that was when she told me. She and I said was does in Europe, the Turks. And I saw I said, I do not want to say it too loud. Okay. And she says no. And she told me it was English to British I said the British. What were you– why? She says I was with my grandmother okay. And I was taking care of– because she was totally blind in the cemetery hiding. Okay, but English– she said no– it was not their fault; they were coming to help us. And they were bombing.
11:46
JK: This is in Turkey or–
11:49
VT: It probably Izmir– I am assuming, I am assuming it would be in Izmir, Turkey. Yeah, Turkey. Right. Yeah. Okay, because that was where she was from. Okay, she, she's never been to Hadjin or anything. She met my father through my uncle Larry. [laughs] So that is how that, you know. And then she told me. You know. And she told oh me before that she, uh, was going to school in Izmir. Okay. And that one morn– I think I told you that, we filmed that– but one morning she got up and she told her grandmother, I do not want to go to school. And she fought and she got whipped. Because grandma got mad at her and said, you are going to go to school and she starts hitting her with–God– I do not know, whatever. You know, and she cried? She said no, no, no, and she just would not go. And I guess that was where she ended up in the cemetery but could not find the school that round. But she did not tell me if it was from–it was war. Because my mother later and he had a family that, well in fact, one son is, uh, is very close friends of Ara Kradjian and Naima. Helped Naima in her election. There was an Arzonian boy that used to live on Jefferson Avenue. And they were very close to my parents– well they were like maybe from here and other half a block away. Okay. And they were great. They had the two sons. And I used to go up there. I was a little pesky neighbor kid. Okay. But they took care of me. I mean they were, you know, fun. Okay. And the youngest son, you know he has been raised up, probably got kids, he is full grown now. But the young fellow, Jack was his name, we used to have a round porch of the [inaudible] Street and he would come down call my mother into everybody comes in an aunt, an uncle, on every spec, right? That was how I was brought up with all the Armenians whether we were related or not. Yeah, you are Auntie George, Auntie Alice, Auntie whatever okay? And, uh, Jack could not wait to get into the service. He went in the Air Force and my mother used to get mad at–“why?”–in her broken English. It is war is hell. No, you do not go. You do not know what it is, it is not all beautiful and all– why do these young men want to go to war? They do not realize. My mother used to say this since she would– saw the fear. Because that is all I got out of– she says they think it is all fun and joy. She says, she says they do not realize and this is what my mother used to say this is– what the United States need is to have a bomb hit here then they will know. It is terrible. They do not, they do not understand how. Yeah, yeah, that was– in her broken way you are trying to explain. Well he got killed. He got killed in another way. [Indistinct] She– they– the Armenians they sold their house they moved. Yeah. So I feel the young boy that is full grown now. He must have gone through hell. This fear– bomb went over there. Some of the other ladies try to go over there to help and she did not like nobody– she just, you know [indistinct].
14:58
JK: Yeah.
14:58
VT: So I mean, these are memories so terribly horrible. Yeah. Horrible, horrible. So I am, I am sure my parents saw enough but they did not talk about it. Yeah, you know.
15:10
JK: It is interesting. Some people are like that they do not talk about it and then others, feel the need to share.
15:16
VT: I think now, it is just the advice it gave me on life like, like the piece of release, these things, okay? I was a little surprised. I spoke to Henry about telling the– I had you mixed up you were his daughter, you know that. He went out laughing over, okay. No, that is my granddaughter. You know, you know. And so he was proud that you were doing it. You know, I said well did not she–you probably should be–you know everything Henry of all the family. So you might even know more about my parents that I ever would have known. Yeah. But your parents probably I have known your, your grandparent you know, your mom and dad especially your mom. She– that woman was smart. Yeah, basically, you know, she is the Empire. You know that, right? I will never forget when she passed away. They had a luncheon at the church. And, it was your dad that got up and spoke. I am pretty sure it was, yeah, because your dad, graduated with honors from BU [Binghamton University] too, he was high in his class. I remember going to that graduation because the, um, there was another. This is Josie Philips’ kid that graduated from there. That is why we went because of and, and, and young, uh, your dad was the number one in the class.
16:34
JK: Wow.
16:34
VT: Okay, I thought, what an honor, you know, and that was how many years ago– oh my God, I was not married then. You know, it has got to be way back in the (19)50s. Right, early (19)50s. No, maybe in the (19)40s. How old is your dad?
16:47
JK: Oh, no. My dad was born in 1964.
16:52
VT: Oh, (19)64. So I was not– oh I was married then. Okay, okay I am going to study what Phil. Yeah, I got married in (19)67. I would have never got married if I did not meet Phil. Well, then I was responsible for taking care of my mother, you know.
17:10
JK: Did going back to there a time in Arme–or Turkey in Armenia. I know, you did not say they did not tell much. But do they speak Armenian growing up–
17:20
VT: My, my mother spoke Armenian, Greek, Turkish, French.
17:30
JK: Wow and how did she learn all these?
17:32
VT: Because she said, you had– because you were surrounded by those people. You know, the population was like that. Okay. Because we have a Greek restaurant, The Olympia, here on Chenango Street. My mother used to take me to the Olympia because she got so– the first time we went there she found out it was a Greek– she did not know you know and we went in there and she got the, you know, and waitresses were our boss. He was, he was Greek so she– he so my mother understood I want to go to the Greek restaurant because I get she was talking to him in Greek. Yeah, yeah. Our foods are very familiar too, you know? Oh Yes. Yes. Now my dad, I could not tell you–the only thing I could tell you about [laughs] my dad was a shoe man he had his own shop there on Main Street. Okay, which everybody knows. But he, he– my dad was very Americanized, too. Okay. But–
18:29
JK: After he came–
18:30
VT: Yeah, yeah, even when I was a little girl, I used to go with my mother. We would come downtown shopping or something and we always stop at the store, you know, and my dad would always, you know, tease me whatever, you know. Yeah. But my dad was very popular with the police people. Because they used to walk the beat and everything. So my dad always used to call him nothing but eşşek, which is jackass, right? Right?
18:57
JK: Yeah.
18:58
VT: Okay. Meanwhile, my dad, Mr. R G bought property up by Conklin, by the river, you know, they had their little they, they were in a full cottage they were– I could open type count like the canopy like you know with the picnic tables and you know their crappy was right next to our set and we always have parties like you won't believe like the Armenians whoever they wanted would come up there you know? Yeah, he had that for a long time until after dad died and it got the point Ari and I were getting too big for it, you know? Well I, I got– we used to swim in the river like crazy. That was where I learned how to swim until– the one time when I saw when a garter snake, I mean to me was a snake. I do not care what type it will come out of the water. I remember I would have nothing to do [laughs] with, with the river. I absolutely stayed away from the Susquehanna River. [laughs] Any algae which is just, you know all that. And, uh, what I was leading to– oh god– there was a couple Armenian families on Conklin Avenue too well anyway, that one day it was a Saturday– the Livings [inaudible] went up there for the weekends. Because it was not that far of a ride five, six miles, whatever. Okay. Oh, right here at the library. Right across the street from the library. And here, one of the stores probably were in there– used to be the old Giant market. Okay. And we were coming down Court Street to, to go down to Conklin. Okay. My mother pulled right from the store. Okay, motorcycle cop. We used to have motorcycle cops. Okay. And like I said, I am still eleven, twelve right? It was after my dad died. Okay, so I probably was around twelve or maybe the same year, I do not know. But I was small. My mother says we forgot the bread. Got to get the bread. So she pulled out. My mother had no, no license, no insurance. We found that later in life. She had broken English. Now she became a U.S. citizen. I could– I, I saw her– I, I got her papers I, I am pretty sure they were in that box, I probably should dig them out, maybe the dates would be better. I should have thought of that. I did not– Okay, well all I know is the cop came, you know? And mom rolled the window down because he tapped and he was– and he says “Ma'am, you cannot, cannot park here. It is illegal”. And my mother was trying– officer, I just need– I want my daughter go and get a loaf of bread. I need bread. I know it was bread. I always remember that. Yeah, and, “no got to move, got to move.” Okay. And I am sitting there very quiet because mom did not give me the money. You know, she had not given me the money and so he says no just move, move. Yeah. And my mother said turn around. She was handing me, the cop started to get his motorcycle going and the weather I cannot remember that but she turned around she still– and turns around she says “here go get the bread.” Okay. Oh no, do not get the bread and she ̶ I got to move, you know? And she is– he is definitely an eşşek, like that, you know? And I am giggling with the, the police officer turned right around the window was down. Says “Ma'am, what did you just say?” You know, and my mother says, well, I, uh, I spoke Ar– I do not know what she– I do not think she said Armenian she just said eşşek, yeah, he says there was only one person used to call me that– you are not Mrs. Mangurian, are you? Bob's wife, Bob Mangurian, you know? And my mother said well yes, oh what a wonderful guy he always called eşşek, okay and he says so he turn around he says he told me young, youngster, go get go get the bread for your mom. Okay? He says you get the bread stay–you are okay. Okay. He told my mother that he was sorry about my dad. You know, yeah and he took off. My mother turned around she was handing me the money she says, he is an eşşek. I will always remember that I love telling a story because it is so true. That she just thought, he, he was stupid in other words.
23:00
JK: He does not even know what it is, does he? That is funny, I am glad you said that. Um, so, how did–do– you do you know from your mom's side how they came to the United States?
23:10
VT: They came because of my Uncle Harry.
23:13
JK: Oh okay–
23:14
VT: He went over to get a life. And the only understanding he had to take my mother.
23:19
JK: And what about your father? Nothing?
23:22
VT: I do not know how he got here.
23:24
JK: Did you know if he had any siblings or anything?
23:27
VT: My si–oh my–his sister. My–my Uncle [inaudible] went to California. I always felt great because I had an Uncle Sam. They used to call him Sam you know.
23:39
JK: That is funny.
23:40
VT: Yeah. Yeah. And he sort of disowned me when I married the Irishman [laughs]. I just thought I would throw that in. I do not want that on that though. You just shut that off. Oh gee, you got to scratch, you can scratch some of that off. Okay. Yeah, you got to do that. [laughs]
23:56
JK: I will. Um, also, when you were– when growing up, did you– were you Americanized or more like Armenian?
24:04
VT: Oh no, no. I was, but not my brother and Harry Kradjians, they were very close do not ask Kradjians and my, my dad do not tell me how I, I have no idea– that is because they are probably Hadjinsis right? And we all lived down to a side right so we went to– it was called Little Avenue it is Horace Mann right now they are on the west side okay there by Rec Park and we because we,we lived right through the main entrance to the Rec Park so we just played in it going to school and coming back. Okay, so what had happened– this is Parsons from the Parsons funeral home look we were all the Armenians go. Yeah. My mother did not go there. My mother did not like Parsons at all. She says you are dead already but they are making you look deader, deader, deader, deader. She just– that– it is funny how nationalities were going to certain. You know my mother did like the old funeral home was better. They were across the street further down by Catholics Chapel down in that area. Okay, so Mrs. Parsons was the kindergarten teacher, Harry Kradjians and my brother did not speak English. Armenian. They always disrupted the class.
25:20
JK: They did?
25:21
VT: Yeah, they would be talking to each other and you know–so she ended up having the school call the parents. So my dad and Arthur Kradjians. Harry's father, Deron’s father, it was that same family– went to see Mrs. Parsons with the principal. And they got told that they are in this country and they have to teach the kids English. They were disrupting the class and they do not do this. You know, and they, they were– Mrs. Parsons was able to get somebody to teach them a little bit of English, okay?
25:57
JK: So they did not know any English?
26:00
VT: I think partly if they did it was very, very little but they– boys did nothing but talk Armenian all the time in class.
26:05
JK: This is your older brother?
26:07
VT: Perry’s the one that just died.
26:11
JK: Or he went away– he just– yeah he just passed away. I went to the fu–yes to the wake at Parsons. Okay? And, uh, yeah because Arthur Kradjian is their cousin’s Arthur’s father's cous–Kradjian Heigwick where Perry’s–uh, parents was Uncle Arthur and, uh, Esquir or whatever her name was, it was a funny name, okay. Alright now they worked on Highland Avenue. Okay, where Kradjians hit–
26:49
JK: Um, going back to your family life, uh, when you were younger. So were you more– do you think you were more Americanized or did you learn Armenian or–?
26:59
VT: I could never speech because I had a speech problem my brother was very good–fluent with it.
27:04
JK: Did you learn Armenian first or?
27:07
VT: I think we both did because that was all they talked about was Armenian. But I used to get mad later on after my dad died. We, we– Gary and I would get laughing because we had the one phone it was always down by the stand as we had– the upstairs, okay, by the window there. And my mother would be talking to somebody and you could understand the Ar ̶ I could understand Armenian, but I cannot speak it. My brother was both. We probably were not into it that heavy because we left. You know what I am saying? But after– not left the church but just left to social and about learning. So– and my mother never pushed on it. Later on, she did not. She was very Americanized, because her true friends were the neighbors. Oh, they were so good to my mother. You have no idea. The biggest mistake we did with my mother, start having problems health wise. And at that time we had doctors that came to the house. Dr. Nikibi lived right next to the Parsons funeral home, the original one. Okay, which was across the opposite way from where they–and my mother, uh, did the Armenian [speaks in Armenian] give me a moment. This happens to me and my doctor says it is normal. I do not think it is normal.
28:22
JK: It happens to me too do not worry.
28:24
VT: Oh, yeah, you people everybody was saying that and that should not be. Yes. Okay. But my, my brother was good because he was, he was upon the artery. He understood it more you know, I, I got so– I knew, you know, I could follow everything you know, I know what I love about the Armenian’s confessions compared– that is the only thing– the difference between the Catholic Church and the Armenian Church everything is exactly the same okay. I like Chris– maybe because our church is so small but when you have confession, he does it right there at the altar, right? He will say whoever wants to come up for communion have to come up for confession. And you have come up whoever wants– in the Armenian Church they kneel in front of the altar. And he says a prayer in Armenian right? Then he has to say I will pray for you to actually– your confession directly to God. And then you can have communion with the Catholic Church they do not do that. You go in and you talk to the priest privately in the little cubbyhole. Now sometimes when they like for Easter and everything, they twenty people– it is a muss at Easter time– they feel once a year, you know. But there were people that go every week. How can you confess on a weekly basis? I cannot remember the last time with confession. Probably before we–well you know, to get married I had to confess. What do I have to confess about? I fell in love with my future husband? But we did not live together [laughs] you know? I mean, it is stupid. I mean, you know, I do not feel I have done anything that drastically. You know. And I–and I think it is lenient, more lenient today because you see– I do not see people. It is the old timers that go to confession, I am an old timer but not– my generation was not like that.
30:11
JK: Yeah.
30:12
VT: So that is the only thing different with the Armenian Church and the, uh, Catholic Church.
30:19
JK: Did, uh, growing up, did you guys have Armenian food or any–
30:23
VT: –Oh my god definitely! I still do. That is what–
30:25
JK: Can you give any examples?
30:27
VT: That is, that is what I miss to no end. Now we used to have cooking classes at the Armenian Church. Oh, really? Yeah. And that dissolved. Well right now we were all old. Mardirossian. You know, Manish Oh my god. She's what? Ninety somewhat years old. She is, is she still driving?
30:42
JK: I have no idea.
30:43
VT: Louise keeps telling me she is still driving. I said I cannot believe that, at that old. She has got that car that does not even take, uh, gas. What does it take? It is that special type of gas. It is an old fashioned car.
30:54
JK: I have no idea.
30:55
VT: Oh god that car is probably worth money. It is an antique. [laughs] like her. She is the most sweetest–she, she knows her cooking. Yeah. Hey, I worked my fanny off at that church we used to make the Armenian baklava. The, uh, well there is a– the other one, the roll. I call all baklava–there is a different name for that. Okay. And we, we– that was our biggest fundraiser for women’s guild.
31:21
JK: Oh wow.
31:22
VT: Yeah, I, I, I know I worked my ass on that. Okay. But I used to get so mad and, uh, Dr. Garabedian, what is his name? Vahe ̶ was chairman of the Armenian Church, okay. Under– when I was person of women’s guild. Or chairperson– I do not think we called that– chairperson, okay. And he would tell me–he would always put in a big order because he will always give it to a lot of good American friends. Do you think– I used to fight this, go out and buy– go to Maine, spend ten, fifteen six–twenty bucks and get the covers, you know to put them in nicely in there. I mean these are cheap.
32:12
JK: That is funny.
32:14
VT: Uh, no, it is not funny. It is, it is disgusting. Yeah. Okay, I used to get so mad over there. My god, come on! You know? You know? So I used to– he would tell me he has said is there any way you could do, you know. I said do not worry about it, I said, I buy my own and I would take them in and do nice little you know. You know, come on, you know. I mean we, we want to try to and I, I did the same thing with me I always brought– my brother. I always, you know, you know a lot people did not want to syrup on, they liked to have it separated. You know, there's nothing wrong. Well, a little– bring a jar.
32:53
JK: Yeah, yeah.
32:53
VT: Yeah, they tell you to bring a jar in. If you want. There were little things that–but I put up with it. That I did not like, you know, I fought, I fought like crazy. I love working with Vahe because Vahe knew he needed a new refrigerator real bad. Where they feel that oh you are going to get this fix or that– well freezer or whatever and, you know, I say Vahe, cannot we do something? Can we get maybe fifty-fifty if women’s guild could come up with say if the refrigerator costs one hundred, uh five hundred, if we came up with two fifty the stu– you know the church will because basically we were always given– we always try to give every year a thousand dollars I remember that when I was treasurer. One thousand dollars church to church. So this year, we are now at maybe seven fifty or stuff like, you know, why cannot we do that? You know? It was easy to fund, they had the money. They would not spend money. You know, but now I guess they are I have not been since they put the air conditioning in there. The day in the church hall or something?
33:56
JK: Yeah and they got a new dishwasher.
33:58
VT: They got a new dishwasher?
34:00
JK: Yeah.
VT: Oh I have– my old microwave is still there. [laughs]
34:00
JK: Did you go to church um–
34:05
VT: When I was little– oh, yeah, loyally. Until we got to the age probably right after my dad died. You know, maybe a few years later.
34:14
JK: Okay.
34:14
VT: Oh, they used to have some nice family parties at church.
34:17
JK: So they– were there– were there a lot of Armenians in the community at– when you were growing up?
34:22
VT: Well we were all kids.
34:24
JK: Oh yeah.
34:25
JK: That was the generation. The older I got– you know my parents my mother was alive a lot of couples were alive, okay. And–and they would have Syracuse would come down. There, there were. Yeah. Oh, I–you know, but then when my generation started growing up, they were the ones that were leaving. Some stayed, a lot of them did not. Okay. A lot of them just left. You know, I know Harry dear on and now half the time they would come to church. They were here, but–they just broke away because– it just got away from them, you know? You know. I think he just got away from because you know darn well, uh, people just did not get along. And I came–to me I used to come home– it got to the point where women’s guild I– and I, I hit, oh, Louise used to get so mad at me she, she is a die hard, I will tell you that, that I will support Louise to this day. She loves that church and her– and her mother was really strong about teaching those kids your dad– they know a lot. Okay. And, uh, but there is your difference. Maybe my brother and I used to say that– I wonder if things would have been different if dad was alive. Because he was a strict Armenian too. But my mother lost it. You know, because not only that– they, they disowned my mother too. My brother was very bitter. He got– he picked it right up. Okay, because he ended up having to be full charge, as a man, you know, he grew up fast more so than I did. Okay. And what had happened is my brother– my– the men– my mother was a widower. They just shoved her aside. Please no, she said yeah, they do that. That is the Armenian way because there’s no man in the house. Okay?
36:10
JK: So–
36:10
VT: My mother ̶ we entertain almost every weekend there was somebody at our house because I– my job is to serve the fruit. Fruit. Fruit. And sit like a [speaks Armenian]. You know, right? Okay. Yeah.
36:22
JK: So, growing up did you guys– it was very prominent the father figure was more in charge than–
36:31
VT: Yes.
36:31
JK: –The mother.
36:33
VT: My mother never– she did not know the day when my dad died. Mom did not know where the money was coming from my dad had investments. That was what my mother looked at everybody thought we were rich. Not really, my mother was– all the years she sold the properties for– my mother never worked in her life. Okay.
36:53
JK: That is– yeah, that seems, uh, the norms for Armenian culture.
36:59
VT: Oh, really? Okay, yeah. She wore black like you will not believe, you know all that, you know.
37:07
JK: Did they– did either of them go to school or college or anything?
37:12
VT: Could not leave my mother. My brother got married real quick. You know, my sister while she was non Armenian. My mother broke into that because my cousin Alice out in Connecticut. I got really raised a lot in Connecticut, too. When I was little. Okay, because like my aunt married. If she was here, my mother used to say, her sister. That was her sister. Okay, she is– all she is good for is to have babies. She–terrible cook terrible housekeeper, but she loved having babies. [laughs] My mother used to say in her broken– you had to listen to the broken English¬– laughing over it.
37:48
JK: Did she ever– so she learned English coming over here.
37:50
VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, she was surrounded by–
37:53
JK: Of course, yeah.
37:54
VT: The neighborhood and they loved– my mother cooked a lot. You know, and they love– oh, they were very good to my mother. Until you know, to this day, that is all they talk– they were very good to me when I got married, my brother. Yeah. You know, very cool–and that was, that was what I was telling you and I forgot the Dr. McKibbin, living next door to the Parsons she, he was a doctor that came to the house, which you do not have that today. It is going way back. Okay because my dad died in (19)44, 1944. So, Dr. uh– my– something about Dr. McKibbin you know, I keep forgetting that again come into the house. So here we go safely, that one to tell us so it could not be that important to tell. But I thought it was and I cannot remember what this was supposed to be about.
38:49
JK: Oh, um, talking about. Now I cannot remember.
38:52
VT: Yes, when my aunt married, my aunt married, had five kids but she also had two or three she had–she had a stillborn baby that died and then two other miscarriages. So my cousin, so when she died, my father told my mother, Martha, you need to go to Connecticut. Gary needs your help. If you hit the five kids, you know, and Marty was just going into his senior year. He, he was a nice serg– in Rhode– at Providence, Rhode Island. Okay. But I mean, they were from Bridgeport, Connecticut at that time. Okay. The one boy and the three girls– four girls. Okay. So my mother used to take me up there by car and she would stay for a while then she come home. Okay. And, but then to the old Phoebe Snow train every summer. School is out for two months. Yeah, right to Connecticut. Okay, so it was actually my mother and my brother stayed home. My mother would not leave. She felt she could not get rid of the house. That was Bob's house, you know, her husband’s and that means she just was not going to give it up. She felt that was her place. And she– now if she was here today she tell you too– because later in life, she was used say I made a very bad mistake. I had opportunity to get remarried. And she felt, just told them no. Okay, and she says, I probably should– I would have made it– life a lot easier for you and your brother. And probably for me too, but she just felt at that time. No. Then she got to the point she thought she was getting too old to get married. She died young. She was only fifty-eight years old when my mother died. There was a big age difference between them too.
40:34
JK: That is interesting.
40:35
VT: Yeah.
40:35
JK: Um, growing up did you guys celebrate as a family Armenian Christmas or–
40:39
VT: We did both.
40:40
JK: Oh both okay.
40:41
VT: We would go to the Armenian Church. Yeah.
40:43
JK: And did you go to the Armenian Church when they did have service or when you could?
40:47
VT: Yeah, I did not go to a Catholic or you know, when we did not have church the Kradjians who lived on Shore Street here on the west side, right down [inaudible] Boulevard. Yeah, you know, there is the Baptist church there. [laughs] So when we–they used to go over there for parties with the Kradjians, okay, and the Rejebian– all the Hadjincis, okay? They would send us kids from church to the Baptist Church. Oh, my god if my brother was alive here today I got to ask my sister I just think she still got– he won a Bible for perfect attendance.
41:25
JK: Oh my gosh that is funny.
41:26
VT: Yeah.
41:26
JK: That is funny.
41:28
VT: My mother was very strict about going to church she wanted us to go to church real bad whether it was a–
41:32
JK: The Armenian Church?
41:33
VT: Well, both. I think she was– she I think she understood about the Armenian Church because we got to the point she probably could not say anything because well we just said no, we were not going. We always went to the social stuff. You know, they used to have nice picnics. They used to go up to the Kradjians farm up there by State Park somewhere. They were great times. You see all that just dissolved because you do not get the help or you do not get the cooperation among the people because they fight. I hate to say it, you know, that is what turn my– that was what turned me off. You know, down deep I feel very strongly, you know, like I told Louisa when she called me last year she's I paid for your dues I said I will give it to you the money no, no, no she said I did it the year before too and I said Louise, why? Then Adrian, your Aunt, called because you know they do not get along. You know that, right? Okay. You know, in those days they never took measurements.
42:30
JK: They just–
42:31
VT: No, my mother used to throw me out of the kitchen. You know? Okay. And my cousins in Connecticut when they used to come down they always called her mom too, they grew up with my, my mother took right over here, you know, when they were up there. And they would say mom wait we got to measure that [laughs] and my cousin is try to write that down the recipe. Yeah, but the cooking classes went real nice. So then all of a sudden it just dissolved. I do not know why, why. I honestly– I could not tell you why.
42:59
JK: Do you know how to cook Armenian food or something?
42:60
VT: I know how to do the pastry stuff, you know. Oh pilaf who–my–my grandkids make the pilaf. Oh, who does not love pilaf? My husband hated rice when he went–well he had it in the service. Okay. And the first time, uh, [inaudible] ‘s mother okay, made it. She–she was the cook she was good I do not if you ever knew her Mrs. Cutrone.
43:28
JK: Maybe, I am not sure.
43:29
VT: Okay, Sonic–Sominick, is that her name, Sominick?
43:32
JK: Maybe.
43:33
43:35
VT: Yeah. Okay. And well her–her brother is Hagop’s father–well Jackie's father. Was Mrs. Cutrone they were brother and sister. Okay. I am sure that–I am sure if you–you did not talk to Hagop at all?
43:48
JK: Uh, maybe Gregory did, I am not sure if I did. I do not think I did.
43:49
VT: OK, maybe I would think I– if I know Jackie is a hundred percent Armenian. Yeah. And he's good. He is a super kid, you know, I, I just feel bad that he never got married, you know, but he is still loyal to his mother. You know, and, oh, very I do not think she led a happy life either. You know, it was a hard life. Yeah. But I–I think, uh, he was a strange man. Let us put it that way. You know, but he was nice. He was always very good with my husband very nice to talk to my hu– I think because nobody else would talk to him [laughs] you know at church.
44:32
JK: Was it, um, growing up, did your parents want you to marry an Armenian or no?
44:35
VT: I, I said that if my dad was alive, I think so. Like I said, my uncle, Uncle Sam, Uncle Shahen, he passed away, okay. Out in California. When I called and told him, you know, that I, you know, it is good to get married. I think he just a minute it was– you were no longer a Mangurian. Slammed the phone down. Yeah, I got disowned. You know, I do not know him, in fact, I saw him maybe all my life maybe ten times maybe. You know, I know he came to Binghamton once, he wanted to– he was going to go to Europe to give himself a life, which he did. And I was– that was when I left the bank and I was working at links. Okay, and he wanted me to go to Europe with him. My mother told him very politely to go, be there alone. You are not going, you know. And you do not know, those days I respected my mother.
You know, I would have– I probably. I probably would have gone all expenses paid and everything. My mother just absolutely put her foot down, you know? And he came home. Yeah. My mother. Yeah. I, I think he wanted even to marry my mother after my dad died. My mother did not–could not stand him anyway. Yeah. No, she did not. You know, but I, I think things you know Gary, and I used to talk about that. Do you think things would have been different if dad was alive? And I, I think there– yeah, I do not know. I mean that was an answer that I will never know.
46:06
JK: Do you, um, yeah I guess, definitely. Do– growing– later on in life, did you raise your children more Armenian, or?
46:15
VT: My grandson wants to know more about Armenians than anything.
46:19
JK: Interesting.
46:20
VT: Oh, he did– yeah– he had to do a paper–write up about a paper about the Armenian genocide. I gave him a little. Yeah. They had the books that I had. Yeah. Yeah, he was very bright. He, he was right into it.
46:31
JK: So you did–
46:33
VT: And I just cannot get him to come here at a certain time to take him to the Armenian Church because I totally–I says if you want to hear him sing or hear him play the piano–he plays the piano really lovely.
46:47
JK: That is nice.
46:48
VT: Yes, yes. And he plays the cello.
46:51
JK: Oh, wow.
46:52
VT: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
46:53
JK: That is really nice.
46:54
VT: Yeah he– you know, I mean, that is something he is going to have for the rest of his life– you know, he–he has won a lot of honors for piano, you know. Last year when, uh, not last year but he was going into eleventh grade now, when they were moving up from middle school to high school from eighth to ninth, okay, at graduation– they did it just like a normal graduation honored, you know, the top forty kids. They had to have maintain, maintain an average of nine point eight something, okay? Yeah he is a perfect hundred. I hate to– I am bragging, I am sorry, I got the rights to do this and I am going to do it. Okay. He is’ very he is way over my head. I talked to him about my iPad. I cannot figure this out and he is talking–we are back. Grandma does not know– grandma what are you doing? I said I do not know it is just that–and he says grandma just stay put, I am going to go get my iPad we will go one by one. [laughs]
47:51
JK: That is funny.
47:54
VT: But he will talk to me about things that I do not even know what he is talking about it is way over my head and he will say grand–ok I am going oh uh huh, uh huh. He will say, you do not understand do you, grandma? He says no I do not, honey. You know, that is how– you got to tell me grandma. You know, you know? He is very, very brave.
48:11
JK: Do they know Armenian or ever– Or your children?
48:14
VT: He knows just a couple of words. But you know, I do not because I do not speak it.
48:18
JK: You do not speak it, only your brother, right?
48:20
VT: Yeah. Well, my brother passed away.
48:24
JK: Oh okay.
48:24
VT: Uncle Gary passed away. Yeah. Right. Right. I was very surprised because, basically, he ended up going to the Catholic Church. Okay. Which I cannot, you know, he did a lot for St. Cyril’s on Clinton Street, a lot, we all expected. But I was very surprised when my daughter– when my sister-in-law did the obituary, read it then she indicated to– about, you know, how proud he was to be an Armenian. And he always kept, yeah, he used to– him and, uh, the old mayor.
48:56
JK: Yeah.
48:57
VT: Okay. Well, it is a camel driver. He was a Lebanese. Okay, between him and my brother, they were trying to say, who had a better collection of camels. Because every time my brother went out and see a statue or something he– and he had history, pictures and books about Armenia, like, my brother was very engrossed in it. But he hated to go to the Armenian Church because he just felt my mother needed help after my dad died, and they just ignored her completely, you know, and that is just– and then he was told this is the Armenian way because there was no man in the house so they are not going to bother. And all the way that my mother used to feed them and do everything my dad and him that, you know, my brother took it very bitter. He was more bitter– I did not understand until later in life he's telling me this. And then– and then later in life, it did not mean crap to me anyway.
49:48
JK: Of course.
49:48
VT: You know, it did not matter.
49:50
JK: So finishing up, did– how would you describe yourself, um, like Armenian-American, American-Armenian, or–
49:59
VT: I think Armenian-America, you know, it, it is your blood. It is in there, it is in there. I could not wait–I saw that advertise on TV about that movie and I wanted to see it. And I got after Louise. Yeah, they did not know nothing about it, I kept calling Louise about it, you know and then she was calling, you know, everybody else in her family and they did not know, you know, that Aslan–and then she finally had Aslan call to see– you did go see– I said yes, Aslan go, it is worth the money. I said I wanted to go because I– as much as I knew about yeah, the walk, yeah we can read about it, but I guess I just thought maybe I get something more out of the movie. You know, and I felt– it, it got to me. Couple scenes there, it really got to me.
50:41
JK: I am sure.
50:42
VT: You know, you know, but, uh, but they had something on TV. I wanted the news channels. Okay. Yeah.
50:48
JK: Yesterday was the, uh–
50:49
VT: The, uh, the anniversary. Yeah, the twenty-fourth. Right. And whoever the reporter was, it was nat–national news, came out how is– this movie has brought it out.
51:00
JK: The Promise, yeah the movie.
51:02
VT: The mo– yeah, but they also said it was not that thorough to explain. It was more like a love story but it gave us a jiff of it. But it was not rated high, it was only two stars that is that much.
51:15
JK: Yeah. Apparently, some of the people against the movie rated it low– this is a controversial thing.
51:23
VT: It is a c–well, oh well, yeah. Well that is what– I think that is what bothered me after I saw the movie. Is this going to be an uproar? Is there going to be a lot of protesting on it because there is got to be a lot of Turks around here. Right. Now, see, now that is what I was brought up to. Do not hate a [indistinct]– at school. Fooling around, talking and everything but when she wanted– they wanted to get married. They got married in the Armenian Church. Her mo– his mother and father stood outside the door. They never walked into the church to see them get married. They heard it. They never saw them actually get married.
51:57
JK: That is crazy.
51:58
VT: Right hand to God, I am not making that up. When I saw that I thought well that is icing on the cake. My mother saw that I think that made her, you know, well because, because well Alice got married in Connecticut. Yeah. They you know, they got married in a Catholic church but the wedding reception was at the Armenian Church in Connecticut in Bridgeport. Okay? And my cousin Joe was a dear oh, he was–you know, he just won my mother over. Okay. And I think my mother really, at that point, she was so Americanized. You know she never wanted to go back to Europe my brother truck– tried to talk. We were going to go take a trip to, you know, he thought mom would like to go back. Had no decided this is my country. She used to say. She I, I think she just did not want to go see it. Yeah, she, you know, I do not know. She never would– never said. The only time I got anything out of her is when I went to wash her back. And I saw that. And she did not really get teary eyed. She just said it and that was the end of it, you know?
53:01
JK: That is interesting. That is very interesting. Thank you. Uh, was there anything else you would like to add that I–
53:05
VT: Not I talked too much. I do not know. I do not know if you needed facts and figures like, you know, I do not know. I do not care whether you use it or not, to be honest with you.
53:15
JK: All right, well thank you.
53:16
VT: I– oh– I like to hear what Louise had to say.
(End of Interview)
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Title
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Interview with Virginia Terrell
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d82085e642543d7b607856f43e46f572.mp3
9a9e1b8f7e53a7ae62d90a0d11fcca42
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Title
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Ukrainian Oral History
Publisher
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Binghamton University
Rights
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In copyright
Contributor
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<span>Aynur de Rouen, Ph.D.</span><br /><span>Heather DeHaan, Ph.D., Associate Professor in History</span>
Description
An account of the resource
The Ukrainian Oral History project consists of a collection of undergraduate student interviews with immigrants from East Central Europe, particularly the lands of what is now Ukraine. Four interviews took place in New York City and record the memories of Jewish immigrants. A few interviews testify to specifically Russian identity and experiences, while the rest of the collection is comprised of interviews with members of Binghamton’s Ukrainian immigrant community.
Relation
A related resource
<a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/oral-histories/index.html#sustainablecommunities">Sustainable Communities Oral History Collection</a>
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Biographical Text
Anastasiya Lyubas is a PhD candidate in the Department of Comparative Literature at Binghamton University. She is originally from Lviv, Western Ukraine. After graduation, she wants to teach in Europe.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Maria Shulga and Sulim Kim
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Anastasiya Lyubas
Duration
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58:14 minutes
Date of Interview
2015-03-30
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University
Digital Format
audio/mp3
Language
English
Material Type
Sound
Collection
Ukrainian Oral History Project
Subject LCSH
Lyubas, Anastasiya. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History Ukrainian; Identity; Culture; Education; Americanization.
OHMS Object
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Interview Format
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audio
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Keywords
Interviews; Ukrainians; Ukrainian diaspora; Graduate students, Foreign; Translators; Ethnic identity
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Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
<p class="first-p">Ukrainian Oral History Project</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_1"></span><span></span>
<p>Interview with: Anastasiya Lyubas</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_3"></span><span></span>
<p>Interviewed by: Maria Shulga and Sulim Kim</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_5"></span><span></span>
<p>Transcriber: Maria Shulga and Sulim Kim</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_7"></span><span></span>
<p>Date of interview: 30 March 2015 at 12:00 PM</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_9"></span><span></span>
<p>Interview Setting: Bartle Library, Room 4520A at Binghamton University</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_11"></span><span></span>
<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_13"></span><span></span>
<p>(Start of Interview)</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_15"></span><span></span>
<p>Maria Shulga: Hello Anastasiya. Again, my name is Maria and this is Sulim and we<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_17">are going to ask you some questions today. Sulim, would you like to start with</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_18">your question?</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_19"></span><span></span>
<p>Sulim Kim: Sure. Anastasiya, we just wanted you to introduce yourself to the audience.</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_21"></span><span></span>
<p>Anastasiya Lyubas: Great. First of all, thank you so much for interviewing me,<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_23">it's a pleasure. My name is Anastasia and, as you know, I am a PhD student here</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_24">at Binghamton. To tell you a little bit about myself, this is my third year in</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_25">the US, I've come here as a Fulbright grantee to do my Master's at Binghamton</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_26">University. Primarily, I came here to study at the Translation and Research</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_27">program. They have a very good program here and I was considering applying for</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_28">PhD. I ended up joining a PhD program in Comparative Literature, but did my</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_29">Master's in Translation. My Master's entailed taking courses with translation</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_30">workshops that would allow me to get both Master's in Comparative Literature and</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_31">a certificate in Translation, which was Russian-English translation in that</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_32">case. I am originally from Lviv, which is Western Ukraine. I know that in your</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_33">course [HIST-381D: "Borderlands of Eastern Europe"] you study Galicia as a</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_34">region, so that might be of some interest to you. When I talk about my identity,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_35">my city is very important to me. So, whenever somebody asks me where I'm from, I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_36">wouldn't say, "I'm from Ukraine," I would say, "I'm from Lviv, Ukraine," because</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_37">that city identity shaped me, and who I am, and how I view the world in many</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_38">different ways. I don't know what else you need to know about me. Should I talk</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_39">about my family background?</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_40"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>Yes, we are interested in you childhood stories, how you grew up, what kind<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_42">of family you had, what languages you spoke in your household--</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_43"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Yes, so I was born in 1989, which was when the USSR was still around. But I<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_45">grew up in the 90s, which was the period right after Ukraine gained its</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_46">independence. It was a very interesting time to grow up in, a very challenging</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_47">time, because there were all kinds of transitions going on. I was born in the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_48">city and I lived in one of these residential districts that you probably see</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_49">with the Soviet-block-type of buildings. So I grew up in a huge apartment</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_50">building in a family that had all kinds of different linguistic and ethnical</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_51">backgrounds. My father's family (his parents, my grandparents) was moved from</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_52">Poland during the operation called "Wisła," in which ethnical Ukrainians were</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_53">moved from Polish territories where they used to live. It happened in the 1947,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_54">so my grandma was Ukrainian and my grandpa was Polish, but they still got moved</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_55">to Ukraine and they lived in a small town near Lviv, so that part of the family</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_56">is Ukrainian- and Polish-speaking. My mother's side of the family is also very</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_57">diverse, because my grandpa comes from a family, who was German but they lived</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_58">in the Soviet Union and had to in a way hide their identity. For the most part,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_59">that side of the family spoke Russian and they lived in Volyn region, which is a</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_60">region in the North of Ukraine. They took on Russian names, so, for instance, my</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_61">great-grandma was called Berta, which is a German name, but then she called</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_62">herself Vera, which is a very Russian name. The fact that they were German was</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_63">never mentioned for obvious reasons, for the reason of living in the Soviet</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_64">Union. So my grandpa came to Lviv to study in a university and he met my</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_65">grandma, whose family used to live in the region of Galicia. This is how they</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_66">met. My parents both lived in the city; my mother was originally born in the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_67">city and my father was born in a small town of the Lviv region, but then came to</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_68">Lviv to study, which was a very typical move -- to go the city from smaller</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_69">towns and villages. So they stayed and my sister and I were born in Lviv. A</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_70">couple of interesting stories that I remember from my childhood-- So, Soviet</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_71">industry was dissolving at the time with the emergence of new markets and</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_72">capitalism. In the 90s there was this very strange barter economy, which I'll</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_73">try to explain the best I can. It is actually a funny story. My grandpa studied</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_74">chemistry and he worked at a glass factory in Lviv, which was one of the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_75">factories that were established during the Soviet times. They had a lot of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_76">problems with the workers not getting paid. Factories in different industries</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_77">had ties that existed during the Soviet Union, so, for instance, his glass</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_78">factory was in cooperation with a sugar-making factory. What happened was that</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_79">his factory instead of paying salary to the workers would give them salary in</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_80">glass. Then they had to trade these glass products or sell them and get</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_81">something else in return. So my grandpa would give someone a set of glasses and</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_82">they would then give a bag of sugar in return. [Laughing] This is what I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_83">remember from my childhood. It is important to also say that we lived in an</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_84">apartment with an extended family, so it wasn't just my family, which was my</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_85">mother, father, sister, and me, but also my grandparents, so this is why I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_86">remember all these stories. My grandparents were involved in bringing up their</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_87">grandchildren, so we lived in more of a communal situation. All my life I've</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_88">lived in apartments, and I think this is interesting in American context, where</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_89">public housing is not as common. You would usually be brought up in a family</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_90">house, in a family home, apartment is seen as a temporary space, temporary</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_91">residence. But in my case we moved from one apartment to another and all my life</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_92">I spent in apartments, I never had a house. I think my notion of a home for</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_93">myself looks more like an apartment.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_94"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>So you would prefer an apartment to a house even if you had a choice?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_96"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>I think so. Also because when I lived in this apartment building there were<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_98">obviously a lot of kids my age and we used to play outside all the time, which</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_99">is something that doesn't really happen anymore as much. I mean, the apartment</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_100">buildings are still there and most of the people who live in the city still live</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_101">in these residential districts with huge apartment blocks, but of course kids</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_102">play video games now or they are on their computer all the time, so nobody plays</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_103">outside as much. For me, playing outside and staying up late, especially in the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_104">summer, with the neighbor kids was a very fun part of my childhood.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_105"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>That is very interesting. Did you mostly speak Ukrainian at home?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_107"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Yes, my parents are Ukrainian-speaking, but I grew up with different<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_109">languages. Obviously, I was also growing up with Russian because of the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_110">television and the books. In Western Ukraine, Russian was not taught at schools</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_111">as widely after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, so schools started taking</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_112">out Russian and Russian literature as courses from their curricula. I went to a</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_113">Ukrainian school, so I was not officially schooled in Russian language or</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_114">literature until my family actually moved to Kiev, where I went to elementary</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_115">school. This is where I learned Russian in an actual school setting. In my</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_116">school in Lviv, I learned Ukrainian and World Literature, of which Russian</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_117">Literature was just a part. However, my World Literature teacher was a former</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_118">teacher of Russian Literature, so that was an interesting change. But as I said,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_119">I grew up with Russian informally, I guess. And while we spoke Ukrainian at</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_120">home, my great grandpa's side of the family spoke Russian to me. I also watched</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_121">a lot of Polish cartoons, because of the proximity to Poland, so that was the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_122">kind of background I was growing up with. I think it was also important that my</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_123">mother as a student worked as a tour guide with Yugoslav tourists who would come</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_124">to the Soviet Union. She worked in a bureau, the name of which I cannot remember</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_125">exactly, but it was something along the lines of "intourist,"</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_126">("интурист") which meant "иностранный турист,"</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_127">translated as "foreign tourist" bureau. She was trained in Serbo-Croatian and</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_128">she gave tours of my city mostly to the students who would come from Yugoslavia.</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_129">I am not sure about Kiev, but I know for sure she gave tours of Moscow and</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_130">St.-Petersburg or Leningrad at the time. This is why we had a bunch of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_131">Serbo-Croatian books, for children as well. I grew up with all these different</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_132">languages because I was looking at Serbo-Croatian children's books, watching</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_133">Polish cartoons--</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_134"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>Could you read and understand them?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_136"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>I wouldn't say that I know Serbo-Croatian, but when my mom read the books to<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_138">me, I would understand. I guess I have a certain linguistic talent in Polish,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_139">since I figured out Polish on my own early on, and then I learned Polish grammar</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_140">and actually went to Warsaw to study Polish later. By learning Polish I could</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_141">understand Czech a little bit, since Czech and Polish are very similar to each</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_142">other, sort of like Russian and Ukrainian. So if a Czech person was speaking</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_143">Czech to me, I would probably answer in Polish, but I would understand what they</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_144">had said in Czech, although I would not be able to speak Czech. I suppose that</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_145">was my linguistic background.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_146"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>That's amazing!</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_148"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>Yes, that is fascinating. You said that your mother used to be a tour guide,<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_150">meaning that she was probably interested in history and arts, but your</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_151">grandfather was a chemist. What inspired you to go into the field of translation</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_152">and comparative literature?</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_153"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Let me start by saying that even in high school I was really into languages.<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_155">We learned English from the first grade and I also took German a little later</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_156">when I was in seventh grade I think. We had courses of Latin, so I learned Latin</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_157">as well and I also really enjoyed World Literature. It was all subconscious at</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_158">that point, because I was still trying to figure out which university to enter</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_159">and which program. I decided to major in English language and literature and I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_160">entered a university at my hometown and my program also provided translation</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_161">studies training, both practice and theory. That became my main focus --</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_162">English-Ukrainian and English-Russian translation. After I got my degree, I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_163">worked for a while and got my Master's in simultaneous interpreting there, which</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_164">was a one-year program. After that I worked a little bit as an interpreter and a</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_165">translator at my hometown. By deciding to apply for Fulbright, I was looking at</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_166">translation research programs in the US, which are not many. There were probably</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_167">five programs that I was considering and Binghamton was one of them. It is</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_168">actually one of the oldest programs they have here in translation research. This</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_169">is how I ended up coming here. My interest in languages was really strong</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_170">throughout my school years and later as a student when I took on all these other</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_171">languages like Polish, and even studied Swedish for a little bit. Even here at</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_172">Binghamton I took a course in Yiddish, partially as a hobby, but also as a</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_173">professional linguistic type of thing.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_174"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>With all of this background, what is it that you expect to possibly study in<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_176">the future? What would be your "dream job"?</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_177"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>I am doing my PhD in Comparative Literature right now and what I'm<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_179">interested in is the interwar period in the XX century, and all kinds of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_180">writings, which are usually seen as minor literature from Eastern and Central</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_181">Europe that articulate ideas of alternative modernity as opposed to Western</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_182">narratives of modernity. I am using my languages to look at these literatures</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_183">and I see myself teaching in the future and doing research, so I would hope to</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_184">work at a university. I really enjoy academia and I think this is pretty much</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_185">the path I have chosen for myself even when I was still doing a more practical</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_186">kind of training. For instance while doing the Master's in interpreting I was</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_187">still hoping to not just enter the professional field as a translator and</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_188">interpreter, but be in academia. Being an academic also allows you to do</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_189">translation if you'd like, so you can still translate literary texts, but I see</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_190">that more as my side interest at the moment. I want to do more with translation</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_191">than just translate texts.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_192"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>Before we go further, I wanted to ask you about your city. You said that<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_194">national identity is a city identity for you. Why is Lviv so significant to you?</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_195">Has it influenced you in choosing your career or other aspects of your life?</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_196"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Thank you for the question. Lviv is an interesting city because it used to<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_198">be very multicultural and it still is, but not in the same way that it used to</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_199">be, especially before World War II. It is one of the cities where we had one of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_200">the biggest Jewish populations back in the times of the Austro-Hungarian Empire,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_201">which unfortunately disappeared for tragic historical events that we all know</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_202">of, like Holocaust. Later, the remnants of the Jewish population that were still</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_203">there during the Soviet times immigrated to Israel when it was established as a</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_204">state. Many people immigrated to other countries as well. It is very tragic to</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_205">know that history, but still at the time when I was growing up not having many</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_206">Jewish communities (religious and schools). The city also has a strong sense of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_207">Polish past. Galicia was a very contested territory because there were Western</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_208">Galicia and Eastern Galicia. Western Galicia is now a part of Poland, while</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_209">Eastern Galicia is a part of Ukraine with Lviv being in Eastern Galicia. There</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_210">were multiple claims to Lviv being a Polish city and not a Ukrainian city. There</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_211">is a lot of heritage of tourism going on from Poland: many tourists coming and</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_212">exploring their heritage, their roots. There were multiple wars and conflicts,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_213">so it is very hard to reconcile historical memory in that sense. Living in the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_214">city really exposes you to all of these different influence; linguistic,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_215">historical, ethnic. You grow up with a sense of history, because you can see the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_216">different architecture that dates from XIII century and different periods in</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_217">architecture, so it's a good city to learn your architectural styles too. It has</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_218">a very strong cultural element. For instance, we have this coffee culture. When</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_219">you come to Lviv, you have a sense that you come to a city that is very much</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_220">like Krakow or maybe a little bit like Prague, so it has a Western sensibility,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_221">but at the same time it finds itself in the reality of Ukraine and it's unlike</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_222">many other places in Ukraine. If somebody wanted to see something that reminds</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_223">them of Europe, but is not quite Europe, they would go to Lviv. That is why I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_224">think it determines me a lot as I think it would if somebody said that they are</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_225">from, let's say, Donetsk or somewhere in Eastern Ukraine that place also shapes</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_226">who you are and your outlook. I think this is very visible. These kinds of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_227">divisions are also visible in the recent conflict and everything that is going</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_228">on in Ukraine right now. I would affirm that it is more complex than just seeing</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_229">the East versus the West because there are very strong regional identities that</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_230">are more pluralized than just this dichotomy of the East versus the West, which</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_231">we see with places like Odessa. It is a port city near the Black Sea, it is in</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_232">the South and it is close to Crimea, the territory that was contested. Odessa is</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_233">predominantly a Russian-speaking region with a very strong Jewish sensibility as</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_234">well. Their sympathies do not necessarily lie with the sympathies of people in</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_235">Western Ukraine, but neither do they lie with Russia that easily. I guess what</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_236">I'm trying to say is that all these regional identities influence the larger picture.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_237"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>Yes, most of the time people just think that there is the East and the West<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_239">and they are fighting against each other, but it is very important to remember</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_240">that there are many more ideological groups involved.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_241"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>Yes, absolutely. You also just mentioned something about Lvivian culture.<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_243">Could you expand a little bit and tell us something interesting about it?</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_244"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Yes, something interesting-- I haven't been to Lviv for three years now, but<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_246">I am going to go this summer, which I think will be interesting for me to see</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_247">all the new things that emerged when I was not there. Now there is this move in</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_248">placing Lviv on the map of the world in terms of tourism and global capital</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_249">flows, in a way, because it is not a city that is as well known as Prague, for</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_250">instance. In Prague tourists are already capitalized upon in such a great way:</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_251">you have all these souvenirs, places you have to visit, things you have to see</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_252">and try, and they are "commodified". In Lviv now they are also trying to do the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_253">same; trying to develop tourism and infrastructure to a large extent. I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_254">mentioned the coffee culture, and indeed the city is trying to capitalize on its</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_255">multicultural heritage. There would be this Jewish restaurant where you would</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_256">have to bargain for the price of the food that you are getting. Or there would</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_257">be this café that is seemingly a café of free masons where you would have</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_258">codes of initiation. Or there would be a café dedicated to masochism where you</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_259">could get whipped by the waiter if you liked, because, you know, the writer</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_260">Masoch (Leopold Ritter von Sacher-Masoch, 1836 --1895) was born in Lviv. It</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_261">changed from the places that were authentic to the tourist attractions, which of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_262">course every city in Europe capitalizes on. Like, where do you go in Paris to</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_263">find "real" Paris and not "tourist" Paris? So I see this move to a large extent</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_264">in Lviv.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_265"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>Do you like it?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_267"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>I think it's problematic in many ways. It does draw people in and there's<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_269">more interest, but it is a part of the global market culture, which is</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_270">problematic. You get places like American restaurants, which are everywhere else</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_271">in the world. Therefore, a little bit of authenticity is lost there.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_272"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>You said you haven't been to Lviv in three years now. How did your<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_274">relocation affect your family? And what do you miss most about home when you are here?</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_275"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>I think largely what you miss once you move from a place is that of course<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_277">the kinds of ties, meaning family ties and relationships that you've had there,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_278">in a way they go to the background, because it is very hard to keep these</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_279">relationships when you are not physically there. It's hard but at the same time</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_280">you move here and you have a circle of friends that you are creating for</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_281">yourself. While there you have all these family ties that are in the way you</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_282">haven't chosen, they were imposed on you. You have to communicate with your</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_283">extended family but also in here you don't have to go to family events. Instead,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_284">you pursue these elective affinities and ties with your friends here who do come</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_285">from both upstate New York and from other countries in the world, you have</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_286">friends from Tunis or Hong Kong, and different places. You think on the personal</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_287">and interpersonal level, that's the major change and there is also for preparing</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_288">for going back after three years and seeing things differently where there is</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_289">culture shock when you come here. There is also the reverse culture shock that</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_290">happens after sometime abroad.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_291"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>We are all international student so we know about that story.</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_293"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>Yeah.</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_295"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>So you guys also go back and forth.</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_297"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>Yeah, I have been here like two years and I will go back in Korea during the<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_299">summer. Speaking of which, have you experience that you have to compromise in a</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_300">way in terms of your culture since you are live in America currently? I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_301">personally, in Korea, when you have to say hello to older people, like your</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_302">professor, you have to bow to them. Here, I have to stop myself because</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_303">professors here are not use to it. [All laugh]</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_304"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>You also notice these things about yourself that you become Americanized in<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_306">certain ways! Yes, It happened. So for instance, what I found about American</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_307">culture is definitely more informal. In terms of relationships you have. The</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_308">relationships at the workplace or at a university there are levels of formality,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_309">Ukraine and Russia, too, and it is different how the students treat the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_310">professors. To have the versions of the pronoun you is honorific and you in the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_311">plural that you address to the professor or anyone who is older than you or has</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_312">a higher social standing. No distinction here but I couldn't call my professor</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_313">by their first name for the first year at least [in America]. I am still more</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_314">formal when I talk to professors than my American peers just because of the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_315">cultural difference.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_316"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>So when you came here first did you encounter any stereotypes about your<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_318">culture or have you had any stereotypes that disappeared or like otherwise</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_319">strengthened as you came here?</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_320"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Stereotypes about America you mean?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_322"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>Yeah and otherwise or Americans about you?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_324"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Okay. When I was looking at Binghamton as a university, I only see the<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_326">university itself, nothing others. However, if you guys might not notice about</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_327">but Johnson City is a huge eastern European community which something surprised</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_328">me that there are communities like Ukrainians, Russians, Polish, Slavs and etc.</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_329">in Binghamton! Diasporas there has to be some sort of center around which you</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_330">structure your community life. You can see even when you driving in Clinton St,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_331">for instance, you see all these so many of eastern churches specifically on</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_332">every block. There is Ukrainian restaurant here, so there's a little bit of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_333">Ukrainian culture present in this town. I don't necessary interact with diaspora</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_334">as much and I think its for all kinds of reasons. Once you live in the diaspora,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_335">I think my encounters especially from with me and some of the Ukrainian</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_336">diasporans in New York City. In the diaspora, they always try to prove to you as</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_337">someone who is actually coming from Ukraine that they are more Ukrainian than</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_338">you are and that usually means like you are sticking to traditions in terms of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_339">the food that they eat wearing traditional clothes they even one person ask me</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_340">if I still speak Ukrainian and they try to make me. So, I went into this shop in</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_341">east village. There is Ukrainian community and I went into this store where they</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_342">sold all kinds of meats and the owner of the store, I think maybe he is the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_343">fourth generation. He actually asked me if I read and write in Ukrainian and he</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_344">made me read something in Ukrainian which was very strange. So, with the</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_345">diaspora the way they project certain kind of identity it's you have to say well</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_346">you know I don't necessary have the same preferences because diaspora identity</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_347">already incorporates with some sort of stereotypes about the kind of religion or</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_348">the kinds of food and things like that. Which are of course the kinds of food</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_349">and the kinds of attractions within the community that also become Americanized</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_350">so it is a little strange once you only come to states and you see Ukrainians</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_351">diaspora here. You come from Ukraine there is obvious differences. And they</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_352">think there is. In the diaspora, sort of distrust, I don't know how to explain</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_353">it, the diaspora try to say that they are Ukrainian although they are not in</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_354">many ways. Being part of the academic community you are not necessarily. I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_355">didn't encounter as much stereotypes people would not ask me, "You are from</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_356">Ukraine"--. I don't know they wouldn't invoke a certain type of stereotype when</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_357">trying to find of course they wouldn't ask me how is over there and I think they</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_358">ask me more now other than what happens in Ukraine other than and limited</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_359">knowledge I can also perceive through media coverage and also talking to friends</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_360">there, but still there is a media account. As for the stereotypes that I have</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_361">for Americans-- I don't have strong stereotypes about Americans. I can think of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_362">right now-- I am--</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_363"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>How about just different characters, culture or different habits between<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_365">America and Ukraine? Did you find out while you studied in here? For instance,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_366">Asian said American are too open compare to Asian culture--</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_367"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>I didn't have a stereotypes that they were too opened, but I think there is<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_369">definitely the way the people Americans relate to others is very different than</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_370">I relate to people. So for instance, in general, I can't call my friend to</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_371">anyone. But I feel like-- in America, where people are just acquaintances they</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_372">"oh this is my friend" and for me as a Slavs, I have six friends that I know for</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_373">ten years that be able to call them friends. So I guess, there are enjoyable</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_374">differences between Ukraine and America.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_375"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>So onto the next questions, the news in US, I don't know if I mention it<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_377">yet, but I am from Moscow and for instance whenever I talk to my parents or my</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_378">friends and I tell them about the news I hear they tell me that is drastically</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_379">different from what they hear on the news from so for instance like, if I watch</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_380">CNN or what main channels that we have here is different to what is heard back</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_381">at home. Is that similar for you have you encountered stuff like that?</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_382"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Yes. Are you referring to the coverage of the current crisis?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_384"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>Yeah.</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_386"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Current Crisis--definitely-- I am try to get my news from variety of<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_388">sources. I would watch Ukraine channels. You can't get a lot channels in TV, but</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_389">we have online stream. Or I watch and read some Russian news but also I get some</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_390">news from western European sources from Austria and Germany. Because I found</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_391">western European covered over the conflicts better than America Medias. In</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_392">America, there is very reputable sources, mainstream, such as New York Times</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_393">which you would guess that they are unlimited coverage. However, they are</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_394">sometimes too dramatic. For instance, current the downing of the airplane, you</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_395">know that happened in--</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_396"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>In Germany?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_398"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Yes, exactly. Things like that. You would get these kinds of events but not<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_400">others. That is very disconnected because of opinion pieces and there are</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_401">political bias that are influenced by political divisions in this country. The</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_402">more conservation pieces versus the more progressives. Something like that. I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_403">find that interesting and that's why I'm trying to follow informal channels of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_404">communication through talk to my friends in Ukraine and also in Russia or any</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_405">other countries. Because you have to be very proactive and seeking out to get</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_406">this information.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_407"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>That is so true! Since we're talking about media representations, did you<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_409">remember any description of Ukraine in American media that interests you? Or</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_410">vice versa--</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_411"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>That interests me-- yes, I want to talk about--What I notice in American<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_413">media, their interests in trying to explain where Ukraine is or why does it find</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_414">itself in current conflict. Therefore, in media, there is articles written about</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_415">the current crisis with a lot of references to history or a lot of tracings of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_416">how the Ukrainian map used to look in different times. I recently read this</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_417">article in <em>Washington Post</em> where it was trying to explain different territories</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_418">that Ukraine used to occupy in the nineteenth century from the empires that</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_419">Russian Empire and then Austro-Hungarian Empire, and you know like the Poland</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_420">occupied history. And later the USSR added Ukraine in 1954 and then now it</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_421">partially part of Russia again. I find that many of the articles are much more</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_422">sensitive to explaining that kind of historical and cultural knowledge just</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_423">because you need to gather understand before you are able to? I think they</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_424">judges what is happened. If especially someone who were not even expert of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_425">Ukraine history or east European history or Russian history, it would be really</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_426">difficult to do so. So definitely notice that. I follow publication, I really</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_427">like <em>N+1</em> magazines. They actually had a very nice articles talked by Keith</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_428">Gessen. I believe that this journalist come from Moscow, his parents were come</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_429">from Moscow, but they all immigrants to United States. He talks about Putin</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_430">Russia and Ukraine current crisis and he's trying to explain it. Obviously, his</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_431">perspective is related to immigrants' eyes and someone who has the Russian</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_432">background as well. So, he's trying to make some balance what people think</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_433">Russia and the current conflicts in Ukraine which was a good talk. So, yes, I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_434">read a lot of articles from <em>N+1</em> and also magazines such as Jordan Russian</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_435">Center. I visit this website frequently and I found that they have some pretty</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_436">good articles and analytical information about Ukraine conflict. As I said, if</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_437">you trying to find it, you can find decent article in here, too. However, you</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_438">'have' to seek it out.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_439"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>If my understanding was right, it was happened to me, too. If I want to know<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_441">something deep information about current issues in Korea, I am searching Korean</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_442">journals along with American Medias. Because when it comes to Korea related</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_443">issues, Korean journals have more amount of information-- more importantly, they</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_444">have better explanation mostly, because they understand and know much well about situation.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_445"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Yes, exactly. Yes.</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_447"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>So I got one last question, with all of these influences you had in your<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_449">life, and especially lived in Lviv and Polish and any other Eastern European</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_450">experiences, and you move into America and living in here. How do you identify</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_451">yourself? What are you more? Like Ukrainian, or Polish--</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_452"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>Maybe Lvivian?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_454"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>Doing in a percentage way, what would you be?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_456"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>That's a very difficult question. Because I think that moving into different<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_458">place, definitely, messing with you in certain ways. I wouldn't say that. I did</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_459">not choose to move into America. I am not an immigrant. I can't say I am not</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_460">Ukrainian-American. I am not a second generation of immigrant family. That's not</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_461">my identity. I am just a Ph.D. student who studying in America. You know, I have</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_462">this displace identity. For instance, I don't necessarily see myself who only</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_463">have to working in Ukraine. I like to keep that open for me. Once, I get my</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_464">Ph.D. I am considering maybe going and working in Central European University in</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_465">Budapest, Hungary because they have a really good program. I love to work in</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_466">such place like that. Or I wouldn't mind to working in Poland and teaching</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_467">there. Of course, I would say that I am Ukrainian. But when I'm saying that I am</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_468">Ukrainian, it doesn't explain something. For me, it doesn't really determine</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_469">that kind of-- how should I put it. I am struggling how to say this right--</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_470">Let's say, it doesn't define my political sympathy. Let's say, when I say that I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_471">am Ukrainian, I am not saying that I am "Ukrainian" in a very nationalistic way.</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_472">Because, personally, I don't identify myself who is a patriotic and</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_473">nationalistic person in that way. Whenever somebody wants to speak in Russian to</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_474">me, I would never say, I am not going to speak to you because I am Ukrainian.</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_475">So, yes, I am a Ukrainian. But--.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_476"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MK:</span><span> </span>Yes, but not the strong kind of..</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_478"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Yes. Actually I never was. This emerging of nationalistic, far-right wing<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_480">policy-- this emphasizing national proud thing-- kind of scared and warn me.</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_481">Because I would see that this kind of nationalistic souvenirs like t-shirts with</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_482">Ukraine flags or anything could appealing Ukraine's. It is something I would</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_483">expect to happen in this states, because you commonly fetishize your identity a</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_484">lot in diaspora society. Anyways, I was never identify myself with them. My</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_485">parents never emphasized those sayings that you have to proud of your country.</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_486">Once I see that, I can explain, the rise of nationalism. You know, of course,</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_487">those conflicts people made antagonized to certain extends, but it does seem a</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_488">little foreign to me.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_489"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>Do you think it wouldn't be different if you were still there?</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_491"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Well, I mean obviously, if you are in the middle of conflicts, you will be<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_493">more tangled. And those conception of news will be on much bigger and larger</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_494">basis than what you are hear in here. You don't have to experience the war under</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_495">level of--. People have to see that soldiers and soldiers are dead and buried--</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_496">and the large number of refugees. This is not something what I see on the daily</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_497">basis. So it is hard for me to tell how I would react in that situation. But I</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_498">have my own strong opinion about something that I dislike and like toward to</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_499">Ukrainian at this moment. For instance, it pains me to see that in my city there</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_500">were many people who wear opposing side to refugees who have been in Eastern</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_501">Ukraine and starts the moving. They were moving to western Ukraine but also to</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_502">Russia and any other countries. And many people who wear engaging with other and</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_503">displace people, people saying that 'oh, you don't have a job.' Why do they have</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_504">to move here, and take our job, we don't have enough housing, and they change a</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_505">city a lot that kind of thing. That kind of fear-- it is really hard to move and</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_506">trying to understand other person and where they come from and what they are</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_507">bring. I have privilege to looking at that of perspectives as an outsider. I am</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_508">not saying that it makes me more objectives perspectives. But I see discontents.</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_509">I'm seeing things in this very reductive way.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_510"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span> I see-- but you said you will go back to Ukraine in this summer and your<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_512">family have been lived there. Therefore, about the current or any past</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_513">conflicts, could it be a personal as well to you--perhaps?</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_514"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>First, how my family was affected by conflicts--yes, they were affected it<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_516">to economic situation. You know, Ukraine economic is in really bad shape, right</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_517">now. And the currency rate is horrible. For instance, when I left there, you can</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_518">change the Hryvnia, Ukraine currency, to US Dollar in 80 Hryvnia to 1 Dollar.</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_519">And there were a part time of conflict to recently where it reached to 30</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_520">hryvnia to 1 dollar which was really dramatic. You can see the price rise of</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_521">daily basic goods as well. I think that's how my family is affected because they</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_522">have no money for that much. They hasn't been that place long-- And also we have</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_523">no experiences like some member of our family were killed. And also they lived</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_524">in western Ukraine which is relatively a shelter from the conflicts of Ukraine.</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_525">So, they mostly not see that in person. They could see in media, but they are</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_526">not experienced that themselves. So, I would say that I would not need to expose</span><span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_527">to violence.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_528"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>So, there are several scenery in current Ukraine besides the physical<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_530">violence aspects.</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_531"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Yes.</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_533"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>Thank you. I guess that was our last question. Because now we already<span> </span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_535">reached the 1 hour--</span></p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_536"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>Yes, I believe so. Thank you so much sharing. It was really productive.</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_538"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span> It was!</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_540"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">MS:</span><span> </span>Thank you for your time and efforts--</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_542"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">SK:</span><span> </span>--and good luck with the last of your semester.</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_544"></span><span></span>
<p><span class="speaker">AL:</span><span> </span>Thank you.</p>
<span></span><span class="transcript-line" id="line_546"></span><span></span>
<p>(End of Interview)</p>
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Interview with Anastasiya Lyubas
Contributor
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Lyubas, Anastasiya ; Shulga, Maria ; Kim, Sulim
Format
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audio/mp3
Description
An account of the resource
Anastasiya Lyubas is a PhD candidate in the Department of Comparative Literature at Binghamton University. She is originally from Lviv, Ukraine. After graduation, she wants to teach in Europe.
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2015-03-30
Rights
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In Copyright
Language
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English
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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AnastasiyaLyubas.mp3
Date Modified
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2018-04-09
Is Part Of
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Ukrainian Oral History Project
Extent
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58:14
Subject
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Lyubas, Anastasiya. --Interviews; Ukrainians--United States; Russians--United States; Diaspora, Ukrainian; Ethnic identity; Borderlands -- Poland -- History Ukrainian; Identity; Culture; Education; Americanization.
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/82556bbbd890c3c603b844028ec4f2a9.jpg
93af7916dce5f371dfc797319c2de378
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/40934a5aa8eb22b2325a2e239500c366.mp3
9b5058a329afb40588d6b154cc8e6749
Dublin Core
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2003-07-11
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Paul Hendrickson
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Hendrickson is an author, journalist, and educator. He is a senior lecturer in the English Department at the University of Pennsylvania. He was a former member of the writing staff at the Washington Post. Hendrickson is the author of two books, The Living and The Dead and Sons of Mississippi. Hendrickson attended St. Louis University for his Bachelor's degree in English, and Pennsylvania State University for his Master's degree in English."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7051,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Paul Hendrickson is an author, journalist, and educator. He is a senior lecturer in the English Department at the University of Pennsylvania. He was a former member of the writing staff at the <em>Washington Post</em>. Hendrickson is the author of two books, <em>The Living and The Dead</em> and <em>Sons of Mississippi</em>. Hendrickson attended St. Louis University for his Bachelor's degree in English, and Pennsylvania State University for his Master's degree in English.</span>
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80:31
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<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Activism; Post-war affluence; Collier and Horowitz; Anti-war Movement; Richard Nixon Resignation; Scott Fitzgerald; Vietnam Memorial; Robert McNamara; Jane Fonda; Civil Right; U.S Presidents; Hanoi Jane."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7059,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":3381606},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Activism; Post-war affluence; Collier and Horowitz; Anti-war Movement; Richard Nixon Resignation; Scott Fitzgerald; Vietnam Memorial; Robert McNamara; Jane Fonda; Civil Right; U.S Presidents; Hanoi Jane.</span>
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College teachers; English teachers; Authors; Journalists; Hendrickson, Paul, 1944--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Paul Hendrickson
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 11 July 2003
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(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:04):
All right. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first things that comes to your mind when you think of that period?
PH (00:00:15):
I guess I am speaking personally. Chaos, in terms of you almost woke up and did not know what the headline was going to be that day. I should back up and say that my own coming to awareness and consciousness in the world coincides with the (19)60s, which is why all my book projects, or so many of them, seem to be centered in the (19)60s. I was really an altar boy growing up in the (19)50s in a sheltered, Catholic, provincial, Midwestern town outside of Chicago and then I went to religious life, to the seminary, for seven years. In some ways, my awareness was stunted, not my intellectual growth, because the seminary was rigorous, but my awareness of the greater world outside me was stunted, so that when I came out of the seminary smack in the middle of the 1960s, literally July, 1965, I felt as if I were swimming straight out from shore. And it was overwhelming to learn about girls, to finish college, because I had done at least half of university in the seminary, and to connect with what was going on in the world around me. Kennedy, our great "Catholic" president, had been killed and that made a profound impact in the seminary, but we were still behind those seminary walls. That was (19)63. When I came out of religious life in 1965, so much in that short period of time had happened and I was trying to catch up with it. I mean, cities were starting to burn, Watts in Los Angeles. Vietnam was, not that I knew it, in the summer of (19)65, but America had taken over the war. It was now the Americanized war. All those years later, I would write a book about it. My opening word to you was chaos and that, even, is a personal statement of how I felt because interiorly, I had no grounding. It felt like I was on a sandbar or on a merry-go-round, trying to catch up. I was 21 years old. I had never been on a date and the world seemed to be swirling and I seemed to be swirling inside.
SM (00:03:17):
The boomer generation is characterized as a group of people that were born between 1946 and 1964. Now in recent years, there has been a lot of critique of this generation by news broadcasters or columnists or whatever. The basic criticism is the fact that they look at this generation of boomers as the reason why we have a lot of problems in this country, in issues like the drugs, issues dealing with sex, maybe even the increase in the divorce rate. All kinds of problems in our society meant there has been a lot of criticism of the boomers. Could you comment on whether that criticism is fair or unjust?
PH (00:04:05):
It is such a broad question that it seems to me there is truth in it and there is stereotype in it. There is myth in it that is unjust. I guess I am certainly part of that generation, even though I am just a little ahead of it. I was born in (19)44, so I am two years ahead of what might be technically or formally defined as the boomer generation and my own life, because of what I was just saying in the previous remarks, was more esoteric and eccentric than the classic boomer growing up, but of course, I am formed by that period of time. I am formed by the (19)50s and I am marked by the (19)60s. Is it fair? Yes. And is it unfair? Yes. It is fair in the sense that this generation had so much indulged upon it, extra expendable income by post-war affluence, a pampered quality, which has its flaws and sins and excesses in terms of the trouble, then, that people get into with their sense of affluence, with their sense of indulgence, and with their sense of, in a way, overeducated, not needing to be as accountable, both financially accountable and morally accountable, as the previous generation, as their parents and certainly going back to the depression of the 1930s, where no one had any money and people instantly had to start working and were grateful for any kind of employment. This boomer generation, the word itself, boomer, implies a lot about indulgence and laziness, maybe, and entertainment values. It is unfair in the sense that out of the boomer generation have come such already successful people, hardworking people, people that you talked about in your remarks before we even turned on the tape recorder, who have changed this country for the better. You have mentioned Tom Hayden. Okay, there is one.
SM (00:06:54):
When you look at the boomer generation when you were young, leaving the seminary, could you comment on the thoughts that you had on the generation when you were young in comparison to your thoughts today?
PH (00:07:09):
Just say that again. I am a little confused with what you want.
SM (00:07:14):
Your thoughts on the boomer generation, your generation, when you came out of the seminary, when you were in your early twenties, what were your thoughts about the young people that you were seeing in America of that period? Has that changed over time and have you thought about it and evolved in your thinking about this generation, and then where do you stand today on them?
PH (00:07:35):
Well, I will get in trouble here for what I am going to say. I am a teacher of writing at Penn, non-fiction writing, advanced non-fiction writing. These kids are the best and the brightest who get into these writing seminars. I am very, very proud of them because of how talented they are and how hard they work. I get the top of the pyramid, the creme de la creme, but what I am getting at here, Steve, is that I see all around me, when I said I am going to get in trouble, at the University of Pennsylvania, an elitism, an entitlement. When we were talking about the boomer generation being spoiled and too much income, the word that might come is entitlement. I feel that this generation of kids, and I am not talking about the ones I teach, because that is a very selective thing for them to get in. They are the committed, hardworking ones. I have to interview them before I allow them in. The run-of-the-mill, which is very, very high caliber of intellectual quality at Penn, those kids are entitled. They are too affluent for their own good. They are too smug for their own good. I feel that this generation has out-boomered the generation that I saw. You asked me what I thought of the world and young people my age when I came out of the seminary in (19)65. I still had blinkers on. I was still trying to learn. I went to a fairly conservative Jesuit university in the Midwest to finish up my education, St. Louis University, and the kids there were certainly boomers, but not in the real pejorative way that we think of it. I mean, just this term that we have been throwing around, boomer, strikes me as a pejorative idea. Do not you agree?
SM (00:09:55):
Mm-hmm.
PH (00:09:57):
And I think the rap is undeserved in some ways and in other ways, no. What you often find about me is that I am in the middle on everything. I, in many, ways see the grays of life. It is sixes and sevens with me. I am certainly not wanting to deny that the boomer generation caused a lot of problems. Do you know these two authors, Collier and Horowitz-
SM (00:10:39):
Yes.
PH (00:10:39):
...who were radicals and then one of them, at least, Horowitz more than Collier, went totally over to the other side?
SM (00:10:47):
He has been on our campus.
PH (00:10:48):
Yeah.
SM (00:10:49):
He wrote Radical Son.
PH (00:10:51):
Yeah, you should interview him.
SM (00:10:53):
Well, we-
PH (00:10:54):
He is a difficult guy.
SM (00:10:55):
Yeah. We have had him twice on our campus. When you describe, can you break down the qualities that you most admire in the boomers and then the qualities you least admire in them?
PH (00:11:09):
Well, most admire are, this is almost flying in the face of some of what we were just talking. Most admire that they were idealistic. They want to change the world. They could not stand Vietnam. They could not stand the fact that African Americans were unjustly treated, so they were doing things, this is this element of the boomer generation, that was highly conscious and conscientious. I admire that tremendously. They wanted to change the world for the better. The things I do not admire are the ones who were listening too much to the Beach Boys and hanging out.
SM (00:12:01):
When you look at the anti-war movement, the anti-war movement is looked upon by most as college students, graduate students and undergraduate students who were very important in the ending of the Vietnam War. Your thoughts on how impactful these students were in ending this war?
PH (00:12:25):
I mean, we look back now and we see the excesses of the anti-war movement. A lot of the kids who were out there protesting, there were elements of peer responsibility, too much drugs, too much free love. All right, all right, all right, I agree to that, but I believe that, you said impact. It was tremendously impactful. That war would not have come to a conclusion. America would not have withdrawn its support if it were not for the boomer generation out there pushing and pushing and pushing and led by older generations, just as we mentioned Dan Berrigan before, Robert Lowell, the poet, Norman Mailer. All of the anti-war sentiment that grew has its roots in this same generation that is accused of so many sins. Yeah, they did tremendous things wrong and there were tremendous excesses, but the good of it, the power of it is far outweighed by history, it seems to me, which conservative Americans would want to write off and say, "Oh, it was irresponsible kids, stoned, who did not want to go to work and just wanted to protest something." Not true.
SM (00:13:59):
How do you respond to the critics who say that because of these college students who protested against the war or the Berrigans or the [inaudible] and so forth, they prolonged the war?
PH (00:14:13):
In what way? How could they have prolonged the war?
SM (00:14:15):
This is an attitude that comes from the Vietnamese and from the North Vietnamese, as some of the recent literature has stated that we knew when we saw this happening that we were going to eventually win, and so thus they can actually say that because of that, there are more names on the wall because they were not going to give up, period.
PH (00:14:34):
And it made the North Vietnamese, it gave them fodder for their cause. It made them hold together, but look how torn with dissension America is. If we just hang on, we will prevail. These people, these radical kids are on our side. Yeah, there is some truth to that and the grays are everywhere. There would be some truth to that, but far more, it seems to me, is the fact that all of that protest got the attention of the country because the lies that were being told within the government. I mean, I know what I am talking about. When I came out of the seminary in 1965, I knew nothing. It was so many years later when I was a reporter for the Washington Post and started looking at this and thinking about it and interviewing Robert McNamara, the architect of the policy, and when I started doing that, I knew nothing about the systematic and systemic lies that had been told. Those kids out there protesting, they did not have those documents, but they knew in their gut that it was a dishonest war and an immoral war, and God bless them. I, in my own way, only three years out of the seminary, joined the anti-war movement because I was at Penn State as a graduate student and I was passing out leaflets for Eugene McCarthy. I got with the program.
SM (00:16:17):
He was my first interview couple years back. He is not doing too well right now because he has got real bad back, but he is still hanging in there. When you look at the issues of the (19)60s, it is just a vibrant era, when you think of all the movements that came together. There was the anti-war movement, the civil rights movement, the women's movement evolved. I remember even the Native American movement, the Chicano movement, the gay and lesbian group. Is there one reason why this was all happening at this time? Can we look at the civil rights movement and say this gave the impetus for other movements? This was the example that allowed other groups to say, "We can do it. We can make a change in this world"
PH (00:17:06):
Maybe that is one theory, the bounce off theory, the synergistic theory. Synergism is all these forces colliding and coming off and positively reacting off one another. The Chicano movement synergistically gets its power from the civil rights movement, which synergistically, the civil rights movement gets its power from Vietnam protest or vice versa. Yeah, that seems to me as good a theory as any. I like that, Steve. You should talk to Sheldon Hackney, professor at Penn, who has written a book.
SM (00:17:43):
I have got it. Great book.
PH (00:17:44):
And he teaches in a course on the (19)60s and he is teaching a course this fall, or maybe it is a preceptorial, called The End of the (19)60s. You said, "Why did all these things come together?" I do not know the answer other than... All I can say is that I was in the middle of this thing and it was swirling around me, just like it was for you. That is why all of the writing power that I feel, so much of it is rooted there in the (19)60s. I am still trying to get to the bottom of the mystery. What were the (19)60... Every great once in a while, these periods of time come along that are just so powerful, cataclysmic. If you believe in the pendulum swing of history, you go the (19)30s to the (19)60s to the (19)90s. F. Scott Fitzgerald said that it takes about 30 years for a generation to occur. The cataclysms of the 1930s, when did the 1930s began? They began on Black Monday, 1929, when the stock market fell. And when did the 1930s end? I think they ended on December 7th, 1941, when Pearl Harbor, because history does not go in these neat 10-year cycles, so let us say the (19)30s began the day the stock market crashed and ended the day that we declared war on Japan. The pendulum swing generation ... When did the 1960s begin? For me, the 1960s began on November 22nd, 1963, when Kennedy gets killed. And when did the (19)60s end? Tricky question, they ended on August 9th, 1974, when Richard Nixon resigned. The (19)60s really, the (19)60s are not New Year's Day 1960 to New Year's day 1969, no, November 22nd, 1963 to August 9th, 1974, when Nixon resigned. Now swing the pendulum again. When did the, quote, when did the (19)90s begin? I mean, we are going on the paradigm of Scott Fitzgerald's 30-year swing. If there is supposed to be a revisiting, the (19)60s are [inaudible] generous, so we will never have a decade like that, I do not think, again. Maybe, who knows, but what happened in the (19)60s cannot compare, in my mind, to the (19)30s. The (19)60s is like a boa constrictor having swallowed a warthog. It just bumps up so large. When did the (19)90s begin, "the (19)90s?" If we are talking (19)30s, (19)60s, (19)90s, this is a trick question that I use on my documentary students. When did the (19)90s begin, Steve?
SM (00:20:52):
I would think it would begin when Ronald Reagan became president.
PH (00:20:55):
Wrong. No, we are talking about upheaval, cataclysm. We have got the paradigm of the (19)30s. We have got the (19)60s. When did the (19)90s begin? This is a trick question. This is a trick question that is absolutely compelling if you stop and think about it.
SM (00:21:13):
It was not when Bill Clinton came in.
PH (00:21:14):
No, it is not cataclysmic enough.
SM (00:21:16):
Okay, yeah.
PH (00:21:18):
Now remember, history does not go in the-
SM (00:21:20):
Oh, you are talking about 9/11.
PH (00:21:21):
The (19)90s began on September 11th, 2001.
SM (00:21:27):
Okay.
PH (00:21:28):
That is when the (19)90s began. (19)30s, (19)60s, (19)90s.
SM (00:21:31):
You are right.
PH (00:21:33):
The world has been different since September 11th, 2001.
SM (00:21:36):
Oh, definitely.
PH (00:21:37):
That is the pendulum swing of history.
SM (00:21:39):
Right. Good analogy. Very good. When you think of the boomer generation, the Vietnam Memorial was open in 1982. The goal of the Vietnam Memorial was to heal within the veterans and with the families of the veterans itself, but also hopefully to heal the nation. It was meant to be a non-political entity. Could you talk about your thoughts on the impact that the Vietnam Memorial has had on healing, not only within the veterans and the family of veterans, but within the nation as a whole? And I preface this question with, what effect does this have on those individuals who are involved in the anti-war movement or as some people say, may have guilt feelings for not serving?
PH (00:22:34):
I love the Vietnam Memorial. I have been there many-many-many times. I have been there at all times of the day, in the middle of the night, in the early morning, on weekends, on national holidays. I have experienced it in a wide spectrum and variety of occasions and emotions and anything I can say about it is positive and powerful. I have never been to the Vietnam Memorial when I do not see some expression of powerful emotions, some display of something beautiful, somebody breaking down, crying as they are tracing a name on the wall, motorcycle veterans who are terribly overweight with long hair who are holding onto each other for dear life, and that is their humanity, not their physical appearance. It is their humanity of suddenly being called back to the fact of where they were when somebody died, some comrade died, whom they knew. I always wanted to go down there with Robert McNamara. I always wanted to see Robert McNamara there. He said to me in his office when I interviewed him, "Yes, I have been there." I am not even sure he has. If he has, maybe he has been there with a hat over his head and dark glasses in the middle of the night. I do not know. He said he was there. I hope so. I hear your question and about those who guilt and who did not serve and that, but I can only think of it as a positive healing slash of granite coming out of the earth. James Webb, who was the (19)60s figure who was Secretary of the Navy and was a decorated winner, I think he even won the Congressional Medal of Honor, certainly won a lot. No, I think he won bronze stars and things. He was a marine combat veteran and has written novels and he hated the Vietnam Memorial's design when it came out. He was leading the protest about this. They did not accept us when we came back and now they were trying to build a monument that is ugly and is a slash of marble coming out of the ground. That was wrongheaded. I mean, I forgive him tremendously. He could not see the power, the perfect power of that monument. Its form follows function. You walk into that monument. As you go down the descending steps, the wall gets higher and those names get higher and the power and the profundity of 58,000 dead grows on you that way. I am in awe of this monument. I am of the belief that it has brought great healing to the country, not enough.
SM (00:26:06):
You brought up McNamara again. I am going to go on a limb here and have your comments on McNamara because when I have been to the wall and the veterans that I have known in the Westchester area and in Philadelphia, there are three names that they seem to, I use the word hate. Robert McNamara is one. Jane Fonda is the most, and for some reason, Bill Clinton. Now, I would just like your thoughts again on these three names and why these three names seem to bring such ire to them, Vietnam veterans, and they will never heal from their thoughts from them.
PH (00:26:50):
Yeah. They bump up large. It is symbolism. McNamara seems so sure. To our generation, you say that name, it is like a knife point, McNamara. It is a knife point of remembering of consciousness. It has to do with his look, that swept back hair, those steel rim glasses that were both scary and I mean, daunting and awesome at the same time. Gee, there must be tremendous intellect there. And the body was so rigid and tight. His body seemed to fit in an envelope. It was all about lies, as it was later revealed, and then he fell. He felt so large because he quit believing that the war could be won and yet, he kept trying to pretend, so there was this mask. When all this later began to be exposed, I mean, he just became such a figure of enmity and among the veterans I know, he will never be forgiven. I have always wondered why he did not get murdered. I mean, people tried. Why did not he get murdered? There is just such hatred out there, such incredible hatred, and he is still an arrogant man. He is an old, old, old man, but he is still arrogant. The story of McNamara is that he falls and then he comes back into his arrogance. He comes back into his pridefulness. The stone monument of his pridefulness is a line that I used in the book, and that is very hard to forgive. It says in the Bible, "Pride goeth before destruction," and that is the McNamara story. Hubris, McNamara symbolically came to stand for such hubris of that administration, far more than Lyndon Johnson, who was devious and power diseased, but McNamara came to stand for this incredible hubris. People who put their lives on the line over there can never forget that and can never forget the feeling of how they were betrayed, and that goes for Jane Fonda, of whom I know of so much less about. Hanoi Jane can never be forgiven.
SM (00:29:32):
Hold that thought. I am going to put [inaudible] Okay.
PH (00:29:45):
Hanoi Jane cannot be forgiven because it just seemed that people were dying and she, in her arrogance and her smugness in her ignorance, went to North Vietnam and was spitting on the valor and spitting on the struggle, the blood of these GIs. Clinton is a much more complicated case. It has to do with his lying and his hypocrisy and boomer, who seems to have gotten away with a lot of things, who avoided because... Boomers get the rap, and not undeservedly, for being able to have stiff armed service in Vietnam, where the ordinary guy coming out of Westchester, Pennsylvania on his high school education or his modest community college education, does not have the leverage, the political sophistication, financial leverage to avoid service, skillfully avoid service because of his upper middle class economic sophistication and abilities to hide behind certain deferments. That is what Clinton seems to stand for. Hanoi Jane seems to stand for her traitor, her traitorousness. Clinton seems to stand for his manipulations of the system and McNamara seems to stand for hubris, for pride.
SM (00:31:47):
What is interesting about Clinton is the person who wrote the letter so that he could go to Oxford was Senator William Fulbright, who ended up going as head of the Senate for Relations Committee, who supported the war in the beginning, but then criticized it and wrote The Arrogance of Power. The irony that the man who became one of the most disliked individuals during the Johnson presidency ended up being the man that helped Clinton. There is a little bit of irony there.
PH (00:32:16):
There is a little bit of irony there. Fulbright did not know much about Bill Clinton, just wrote him a letter, wrote a letter on his behalf. Fulbright was a great man. He had the power. He had the moral capital to change when he saw that it was corrupt. We called Fulbright as an old man in a K street law firm, long retired from government. I am interviewing him for the McNamara book and I said, "Sir." I mean, he was a hero of mine. And he was old by then, and he basically did not have a job. He was just in a law firm as a emeritus associate guy. And I said, "Sir, I was so naive when I started this McNamara project. I did not understand how these..." He said, "Do not feel bad. I was naive, too. I was a US senator."
SM (00:33:04):
Yeah. He wrote a really good book, The Price of Empire, and I guess he co-wrote it with Mr. Tillman or something like that, and we ended up taking students from Westchester University down to meet him as our first Leadership on the Road program. Gaylord Nelson helped us secure it right during the Gulf War in (19)91, and it was a tremendous meeting. He had had a stroke, but he was back fully strong. And he walked into the room and he had that gut and the suspenders were up and everything and his sport coat. And he said, "Why do you want to listen to an old man?" I will never forget that, but at that point forward, he challenged our students and you knew right away how powerful he was. We had a student government president at the time who was so gung hoed for the war and of course, he was against the war, so it was a great learning experience for our students to give him the pro viewpoint. When you look at the lasting legacy of the boomer generation... You are a writer and some of the best World War II books are coming out now, almost 50 years afterwards. When the best books are written on the (19)60s and the (19)70s and the boomer generation, what do you think the lasting legacy is going to be of the boomers via the greater period of time to really reflect and understand the history of this period?
PH (00:34:28):
That they sought to make a change and it was a human enterprise. Any institution that they became part of, like the SDS, is flawed and full of excesses because it is run by human beings, but they were idealistic and felt that the world, there was corruption and that they were being lied to and they tried to do something about it. That, to me, has to be saluted and remembered. When we wash off or want to write off the (19)60s crowd as dope smoking, long-haired, irresponsible, that is inexact and inaccurate. The greater part of it is that they were large elements were trying to make a difference.
SM (00:35:30):
How do you even deal with the subtleness that some people use, maybe not to go as far as attacking the extreme elements of the (19)60s, but stating that this particular generation of 70 million people, only probably 15 percent were truly involved in any form of activism, whether it be in the civil rights, anti-war, environmental, whatever the cause, and they used that as an excuse to show that they are not really, the numbers were not really there? It was just a small number in a big generation.
PH (00:36:05):
I do not know. What do you think about that?
SM (00:36:10):
Well, my thoughts on that is that I disagree with them. I disagree because when you take 15 percent of 70 million people, that is still a lot of people.
PH (00:36:18):
That is a lot of people. That is what I was going to say.
SM (00:36:20):
And you are dealing with a lot of different causes.
PH (00:36:23):
And that 15 percent made enough noise that they were tremendously heard.
SM (00:36:27):
Oh, yes.
PH (00:36:34):
You can light a match. You can light a match in a dark room and see that light.
SM (00:36:43):
This issue that is really important, I sense it today, and I do not know if you sense it amongst your students, but it really concerns me. It is this lack of trust that we seem to have in our leaders. I have been in college education for 25 years. I saw it in the (19)80s with students. I see it in the (19)90s. I see it today. A lack of trust in leaders, whether they be political leaders, corporate leaders, even ministers. No matter where a person is, that there has got to be something wrong with that person. They cannot be trusted. I am wondering if the effect that Lyndon Johnson had and Richard Nixon and I even had someone tell me in the interview process that the lack of trust began with Eisenhower. Eisenhower? Yeah, because of the U-2 incident. He lied to the American public. It was right on television. He knew he was lying. If you really want to go back, you can talk to Eisenhower, and then you can even go back to FDR if you want to for some things.
PH (00:37:47):
Yeah, for Pearl Harbor.
SM (00:37:47):
Yeah, for Pearl Harbor and then Truman had opportunities with... The question I am really asking is the issue of trust.
PH (00:37:58):
Trust in our trust in government, trust in our leaders, gosh, it is a huge problem that concerns me, too, that automatically there is a tendency to distrust. Does that come out of the (19)60s? Does that come out of Vietnam? Oh, well, you are just pointing that it goes back further, but it seems like it was so pronounced during the (19)60s, and that is a fearful thing. If we think that everybody who comes forward to try to run for office or to lead us should be distrusted, I mean, I do not know how we correct that.
SM (00:38:41):
You see that when you think of the periods that I am just describing, that the (19)60s was the period where this trust and lack thereof really evolved and developed. The question I am really trying to get at now is what had the boomers done with respect to their children in terms of passing on the qualities that they possessed in activism into the next generation? Have you seen that the children of the boomers are like them or not like them?
PH (00:39:11):
My wife says that when you are raising children, we have two boys, the notion of be careful not what you say to your children as much as what you show them by your actions, what you do, because that is what they are watching. That is what they are picking up. I do not think that answers your question, but I mean, this thing you are getting at about how do we restore some basic positive, I do not know the answer to that. It is very worrisome.
SM (00:40:04):
I am wondering whether boomers have actually sat down with their kids or their grandkids now and talk to them about the (19)60s and the (19)70s and what it meant to them, so that in their lives they can believe they are empowered as well to be change agents for the betterment of society. A question that has arisen through this process of these interviews is, what have the boomers done with their kids and why, in the generation that followed the boomers, they do not vote. And if you talk to them, "My vote does not count." [inaudible]
PH (00:40:39):
They stress their officials. They do not think it is going to do any good. And as I said, they are over-boomered. They have out-boomered the boomers, so maybe the boomers are negligent and culpable here for not giving enough of their time to sitting down with their kids and telling them. And why would that happen? I do not know. It is interesting that my own kids know about the (19)60s without... My 15-year-old, 5, 6, 7 years ago, he knew all about the (19)60s. Where did he learn it? If I said to him, "John, what are the (19)60s about?" He would go, "Hey, man, peace." Where did you get that, from television? I do not know, but the true values of the (19)60s, does he know about those? Maybe not enough. The true values of the (19)60s that I would think of is all these things we have been talking about, protesting.
SM (00:41:41):
Well, working with students as I do day in and day out, one thing that I have seen, at least the last 16 years at Westchester, is the fact that there is two ways that they look at the (19)60s. There is either, "I wish I lived in that period so that my life could be as exciting as," because there were causes and issues, and number two, "I am sick of hearing it. I am sick of hearing about nostalgia. You are trying to relive your past. Come on, we are in the future now. I am tired of hearing about it." And of course, these are all responses before 9/11, because we had a lot of the interviews that I have had are before 9/11 and the causes and now there seems to be, this is a major cataclysmic event in student lives.
PH (00:42:23):
What are you going to do with this? Put a book together about what the (19)60s stands for?
SM (00:42:27):
Yeah. It is based on these questions. It is oral histories and some taken people who were leaders at that particular time. That is why we got McGovern. We got some of the older leaders, so people that were in positions upon responsible at that particular time, certainly a lot of vets and civil rights people and then boomers, people in the anti-war movement and people in the intellectual community. It is a combination of different points of view. I am in the process now of trying to get more women, because I am finding, it is interesting, that when you look at the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, men were in the major roles. Men mostly served, even though the nurses did serve in Vietnam. And I am working with Diane Carlson Evans now to try to make sure that I get a lot of women to be interviewed in the next several months. It is a composite, lots of views, because it is like any oral history interview. It is taking a person's feelings, people reading these oral histories of different individuals from different perspectives, and trying to get a grasp of some of the questions that I have been asking and-
PH (00:43:34):
Tucker.
SM (00:43:34):
...trying to understand the period a little better.
PH (00:43:38):
Listen. There is a book that is somewhere around this house, but you probably know about it. It is a similar tack of what you are doing, except it was done a long, long time ago, 20, 25 years ago, right as the (19)60s were finishing up. It is called From Camelot to Kent State.
SM (00:43:56):
Oh, I have got that book.
PH (00:43:57):
And Craig McNamara, McNamara's son, is one of the interviews in the book.
SM (00:44:02):
Oh, wow.
PH (00:44:05):
And he is a great guy. He is McNamara's own son. He is proof that Robert McNamara has a heart because Craig McNamara, people who want to write off McNamara think he is the tin man searching for a heart. No-no. McNamara is much more complicated. McNamara is the fact that he betrayed his own predilections and his own desire. He grew up on the cusp of the country in the (19)30s at Berkeley, where there was all this intellectual ferment. He was idealistic. McNamara sold out. He sold out, first of all, in cars, but then he came to Washington, where the line really had to begin. The McNamara story is far more tragic than some soulless money idiot. People who think that that is what he is about or a soulless numbers cruncher, they do not get McNamara. They are all wrong. Craig, his son, is a walnut farmer in Winters, California, is a truly good human being. And when I say he is proof that McNamara has a heart, Craig McNamara, the son, the only son, could not have gotten his goodness from his mother alone. His mother alone, McNamara's wife, was a tremendous person, but Craig could not have, he had to get it equal parts or not maybe equal, but he had to get parts from his father and parts from his mother. I do not want to get off on that, but he is one of the interviews in that book and you should dust that book off and look at it again because I think some of what you are trying to do is, although that is mostly... That book, I think, is mostly interviews with just the boomers, just the protestors.
SM (00:45:40):
Yeah. Well, I have got a lot of older people and a lot of Vietnam vets.
PH (00:45:43):
You have got the range.
SM (00:45:44):
Got a long way to go. I think I am going to get David Eisenhower and I am hoping I can get Julie. David will interview, but Julie probably will not. And I want...
PH (00:45:55):
She is so protective, is not-
SM (00:45:56):
Yeah. David came to our campus and she has written me some letters a couple years back, and so I think she trusts me, but I got to get through David again to try to get to Julie.
PH (00:46:08):
He is much loved at Penn.
SM (00:46:09):
Is he? David?
PH (00:46:10):
He is in the Annenberg School of Communication and teaches courses on the presidency.
SM (00:46:17):
He is a great guy.
PH (00:46:18):
Well, the students love him.
SM (00:46:22):
I just admire the man. He came to our campus about eight years ago and that is been eight years now, but I had some correspondence with his wife, trying to get her to come, and that is before her dad died, and so she was really concentrating on her dad at that time. We have one final question then I am going to go into some individual personalities here, and you can comment on perceptions of these individuals. I have been talking a lot about the anti-war movement, but I want to get back to civil rights. I had an interview with John Lewis, a very good one, for about an hour. It was took three and a half hours to get the hour because he was a busy man, but we talked a little bit about the civil rights movement that he was involved in and the (19)60s as a whole. I would like your thoughts on the civil rights movement period from the (19)60s and a sense that this person, this person, Steve [inaudible] feels, that somewhat, the civil rights history and the civil rights movement is not, well, am I saying being forgotten? I do not see the sense of the leaders that we saw in the past to keep this issue alive. We have the issue of affirmative action, which has just become before the Supreme Court, but how important is civil rights today?
PH (00:47:38):
Well, you analyzed it very well, it seems to me. Vietnam superseded everything. Civil rights started. We talked about that synergy. Civil rights actually started before Vietnam because the Vietnam protest did not really take off until the spring of 1965, as America was taking over the war, and civil rights protest and civil rights movement was in deep, full swing before that, before 1965. Civil rights precedes Vietnam, but then Vietnam supersedes everything about the (19)60s. And your point is extremely well taken, that those leaders, just like John Lewis, who was willing to go down and get his head beaten in, in such charismatic power, dignity, quiet power, but for every John Lewis, you could name so many others, known and celebrated and not so celebrated. James Foreman of SNCC and so many, where are those people today, because the civil rights movement seems to have atrophied. That is my comment. I am just looking at my time. Let us get on with these other-
SM (00:48:58):
I would just like some comments or just your perceptions of the following individuals that are personalities from the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Tom Hayden.
PH (00:49:07):
Some of these I do not have as an informed feeling about as I would like to, so if I do not have it, I am just going to say that. Certainly, my knowledge is sketchy, like anyone else's. It has its holes and its gaps. Tom Hayden is a committed guy who did tremendous work and I think there is a line of integrity all the way through where he is now and where he was back then.
SM (00:49:39):
Lyndon Johnson.
PH (00:49:42):
A man who is so complicated. Robert Caro's biographies are powerful and good. Sometimes they miss the juice of Johnson, which seems to be this whole kaleidoscopic notion of Johnson was everything. There was a compassionate side of Johnson that was so truly invested in the civil rights movement. That has to be admired. He was a liar, a cheat. He was power diseased. He just bumps up so large. I am endlessly fascinated by Lyndon Johnson, fascinated, much more so than by McNamara.
SM (00:50:24):
Hubert Humphrey.
PH (00:50:28):
Tremendous man, tremendous man of conscience, of idealism, who again, held that line all the way through. Got politically neutered by Lyndon Johnson and lost his way, but that cannot undo the grocer's son from Minneapolis, who rose from mayor and whatever else he did, idealistically to really want to help downtrodden people, great admiration.
SM (00:50:57):
John Kennedy.
PH (00:51:03):
Not nearly as fascinating or as complicated as his predecessor, Lyndon Johnson. John Kennedy, a hugely bright man with a native intellectual ability, but spoiled, lazy, brave in the sense of what he endured with his physical problems and his heroism in World War II, but narcissistic, selfish, spoiled as a rich kid, and yet came out of that to be a leader. What Kennedy has about him in memory and history, it was style. It was this panache, it was this class, it was this finesse, it was this charism. All of those things are true and surface and thin, as opposed, in my mind, to this immense complication of someone like Lyndon Johnson.
SM (00:52:26):
Robert Kennedy.
PH (00:52:30):
Oh, tough, shrewd, hard, politically astute. That word ruthless, which was attached to him, was not undeserved, but who also had tremendous conscience and he changed after his brother died. The last five years of Robert Kennedy's life are something to behold. They are powerful and emotional and committed and I think that death sincered him, that he began to see the world in a powerfully different way. The last five years of his life are beautiful and to be admired.
SM (00:53:17):
Eugene McCarthy.
PH (00:53:19):
A guy who certainly had ambition, who had intellectual pride, who had ego, but who also was brave enough to stand up, to challenge his own party and was a committed guy. I feel that the problem with Eugene McCarthy is that he has never quite broken a sweat. He has always been a little bit on the fringe of not wanting to get in there, roll up his sleeves, and fight all the way, and part of that might be his intellectual [inaudible].
SM (00:53:58):
Martin Luther King Jr, and if you could comment on his stand against Vietnam War.
PH (00:54:03):
I thought it was brave that the guy who was so leading the civil rights movement felt that if he were going to practice the integrity of what he believed, that he had to expand all his thinking toward all the injustices of Vietnam, which certainly were unjust to African Americans, but just unjust in a political worldview. And Martin Luther King is a great man and a great leader who had large, private, personal demons and flaws. He was one of God's sinful creatures, just like we all are, but none of those flaws and personal failings can override the great, great life.
SM (00:54:56):
Malcolm X.
PH (00:54:58):
Do not know enough about him. Would like to know more. What I do know is that he had a kind, it seems to me, an intellectual core of belief. That vision is something prominent and powerful to be paid attention to. I do not know. I would be interested in knowing about his anger and his hate. I have feelings that there was too much anger there.
SM (00:55:35):
The Black Power advocates, the Bobby Seales, the Huey Newtons, the Eldridge Cleavers, Kathleen Cleaver.
PH (00:55:40):
I met some of them and I interviewed some of them. I interviewed Bobby Seale years later when he was hawking barbecue sauce, which he still is.
SM (00:55:48):
Yeah, that is right. Yes. He was at Temple, or he was.
PH (00:55:51):
Yeah. Again, those guys were brave. They were angry as hell and they were brave and were all the things we talked about earlier, their excesses. They screwed up, but you have to look at the whole life and they helped change the status quo. A lot of them were scary dudes. Maybe they had a right to be scary dudes.
SM (00:56:28):
Any thoughts on the fact that they had certainly put a lot of pressure on Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer and Roy Wilkins, that their time had passed?
PH (00:56:38):
Yeah. You have heard the thing that radicals can get along much better with conservatives rather than liberals. Radicals cannot stand liberals because liberals talk the talk. They talk the talk, but-
SM (00:56:53):
They do not walk the walk.
PH (00:56:54):
They do not walk the walk and the radical wants it right now, right fucking now, and do not give me the talk the talk. If you want to fight with me, put a conservative in here because I know where that guy stands and I will be able to duke it out with him, but the liberal is mouthing all of these nice pieties. The hell with those nice pieties. I think that is the problem with the Stokely Carmichaels and the Dr. Kings.
SM (00:57:24):
How about the Abbie Hoffmans and Jerry Rubins, the Yippies, so to speak, of that era?
PH (00:57:29):
They were crazy and narcissistic and selfish and weird, but the other part of it is that there was something genuine and real in them that they were not out just to make a buck.
SM (00:57:47):
Richard Nixon.
PH (00:57:53):
I guess he was very, very unbalanced and he did some good things, but was so burdened by his... He was so brought down by his neuroses and his pathologies that I see him not as a tragic figure. That word is too thrown around. McNamara is a tragic figure, basically because he betrayed his own ideals. In the Shakespeare construct, you have to have a great single tragic flaw. McNamara's single tragic flaw is this pridefulness, his hubris. Nixon is more a victim of his own pathologies, and in that sense, he is not a tragic character. You do not agree?
SM (00:58:54):
No, I do agree. I do agree. I do agree. Spiro Agnew.
PH (00:58:58):
Ted Agnew, a mean man, a mean, vindictive guy who probably did some good things.
SM (00:59:12):
Here we go.
PH (00:59:21):
He probably did some good things as the governor of Maryland, but overall is a shit. He is like Frank Sinatra. They were friends for a while. Frank Sinatra is this eternal mystery, it seems to me, of great art and shit life, the things that Sinatra did. Now, Agnew does not have any great art. Agnew is just a shit. Nixon is brought down by his pathologies and you can almost feel sorry for Richard Nixon. You cannot feel sorry for Agnew. You cannot feel sorry for Sinatra. I mean, we are mixing art and politics here. You can be uplifted every day of your life by listening to Sinatra's music. I listen to it around here all the time. Every day of your life, you can be uplifted by Sinatra's music, at what the human voice is capable of, and every day of your life, you can be brought to the floor by the awful things Sinatra did, which have come out.
SM (01:00:31):
In the women's movement, the Gloria Steinem and the Betty Friedan, your thoughts on their importance.
PH (01:00:38):
They are tremendously important. Friedan is a more powerful figure, more important figure than Steinem. Steinem took her abilities and her intelligence and went with it as far as she could go, and that was a lot and that was far, but Friedan is much more of a Moses. I wish I had a female image. Friedan is much more of a pioneer and has much more intellectual firepower.
SM (01:01:17):
Daniel Ellsberg.
PH (01:01:21):
A screwed up, really good man of conscience, who did things for ego and ambition and notoriety as well as conscience and realizing, "This thing stinks and I have to be the one to bring it forward," but a guy who also had tremendous personal problems and was undone by a lot of those personal problems. I met him. I have talked to him. I have met him. I know him.
SM (01:01:54):
Dr. Benjamin Spock.
PH (01:01:55):
Do not know enough about him other than what you know.
SM (01:02:01):
Muhammad Ali.
PH (01:02:04):
I have been around him. Ali is so curious to me. A guy who has a gift that you would think is based in intellect, but it is not because I do not think he... I am not talking about whether he is an educated man or he is not an, not an educated man. I am talking about his intellect. You would think that a man of such rapier-like wit, is so fast on his feet in the ring and in life, would be high intellectual power. I do not think he was. I think he was not particularly a smart man, but he has some kind of gift, some kind of instinct. Maybe it is a kind of animal instinct for protecting himself and giving lightning jabs, and he was very brave, too, and I believe that what he did in embracing Islam was based on conscience.
SM (01:03:20):
I can remember that when he was dethroned and he could not fight after staying on the Vietnam War, he came to Columbus, Ohio. I was working at Ohio University then and he went to the Ohio Theater downtown, gave a speech. They pay him $3,500, and he came on stage with $3,500 in cash and gave it back to the group that brought him in and said, "Use this to help the homeless or the poor." That is the kind of man he was, because he was a millionaire from his boxing.
PH (01:03:52):
Yeah, I love it.
SM (01:03:53):
But that was tremendous of what he had to say.
PH (01:03:55):
I love it. I love that story.
SM (01:03:57):
Noam Chomsky.
PH (01:03:59):
Do not know enough about him other than certainly a guy who has done all of the things we have talked about from the intellectual standpoint.
SM (01:04:09):
George McGovern.
PH (01:04:12):
A great guy, a great sense of humor, a guy who kept his feet on the ground in political Washington. Of course, ambition wanted to be president. He basically railroaded and sold out on his running partner, Tom Eagleton, when it was discovered that Eagleton had mental problems. He did not support him in backing like he should have, because we were all scared. You have to put that in context. The country was scared about mental problems. McGovern falls there, but McGovern is a World War II hero. McGovern is a man of conscience all through the Senate years. McGovern has a wonderful Midwestern, he is from Dakota, as you know, he has a wonderful stability. His feet are on the ground. He is not going to be swamped by these eggheads. So many of the people who came to Washington to work in the Kennedy administration got their heads turned by the glamor of Camelot. That, again, is that style, as opposed to substance. McGovern is a man of substance.
SM (01:05:19):
Timothy Leary.
PH (01:05:21):
I do not know enough about him other than he seems, in some ways, a creation of the media.
SM (01:05:30):
Ralph Nader.
PH (01:05:32):
A flawed, good man who was tremendously motivated to help change these things that are wrong in industry, but a guy who was so aesthetic that he was difficult to know. His personality is prickly and there was a hardiness there. He has been held back by his lack of people skills. You see, you get back to Lyndon Johnson. The juice of Lyndon Johnson is this immense people skill. He knows everything. He has a PhD in people. McNamara has an eighth-grade education in people.
SM (01:06:26):
George Wallace.
PH (01:06:34):
A demagogue, a fiery little guy who did some decent things for Black people early on, but was killed by his ambitions, and that he was a nasty guy, finally.
SM (01:06:49):
John Lennon, the Beatles, and John Lennon in particular.
PH (01:06:59):
Lennon is a great songwriter. I guess he is an immortal songwriter. He is the most talented of the four. His talent far out shines Paul McCartney's. He is an intellectual all the way. I guess I have pretty strong good thoughts about him, but in a funny, queer way, I have to tell you, I do not like the guy.
SM (01:07:32):
Just the music of the (19)60s, the Jimi Hendrix, the Janis Joplins, that whole era, The Rolling Stones.
PH (01:07:40):
I went back and tried to-
SM (01:07:43):
The impact the music of this period had on the generation.
PH (01:07:46):
Yeah, Vietnam was our first rock and roll war, as has been pointed out. You cannot think about the (19)60s without listening to the stoned, Benzedrine quality of that music. And Janis Joplin's cry and Jimi Hendricks's wail with that guitar are just so emblematic of the (19)60s. I mean, Joplin I have written about. I went back and tried to understand the legend of Joplin. I did this with the Washington Post about four or five years ago. She was so hurt, tormented by her own self-worth, and somehow or other... She dropped out of the University of Texas as a freshman. She did a couple semesters at Texas and the fraternity boards at UT Austin voted her the ugliest man on campus, ugliest pig man on campus. That was just one of her insults.
SM (01:08:59):
You think of the Phil Ochs and Joan Baezes and the Arlo Guthries. You remember those musicians coming to our campus and the impact that they had, just of the words, the music. There is so many people like that of that period.
PH (01:09:14):
Phil Ochs hanged himself. I love Arlo Guthrie.
SM (01:09:17):
I am going to close with just a couple terms here of the period. When you think of SDS, what do you think of?
PH (01:09:23):
I think of obviously the scary, radical edge of protest of the (19)60s. Not the edgiest and the scariest, but a group that was out there toward the fringe.
SM (01:09:46):
Counterculture.
PH (01:09:51):
Counterculture is a beloved word for me. I think everybody should have an element of counterculture in them. The streets that we live on here is too culture. I hope to hope be the counterculture of Colfax Road.
SM (01:10:07):
The Pentagon Papers.
PH (01:10:10):
Everybody knows what they are. The Pentagon Papers are one of the great treasure documents of the (19)60s, (19)70s,
SM (01:10:19):
Okay. Chicago Eight.
PH (01:10:27):
The Chicago Eight, Bobby Seale was one of them. You say Chicago Eight and you think of a courtroom and Judge Julius Hoffman and people being restrained in their seats as Bobby Seale was. That trial was unfair and it caused such commotion because they thought that those eight who were on trial were murderers and rapists. Well, they were not that at all. It was unfair.
SM (01:11:03):
Watergate.
PH (01:11:06):
Watergate. I interviewed a man who had been imprisoned in China all during Watergate and came out in the late (19)70s and he had been in a hole in China and he heard the word Watergate. He said, "What is it? Is it something to do with the dam? Is it something to do with water?" Watergate. You say Watergate and I can only see the buildings themselves along the Potomac, where we lived in Washington for 30 years.
SM (01:11:38):
Hippies and Yippies.
PH (01:11:44):
I like hippies better than Yippies. The instant connotations for me are yippies have too much money.
SM (01:11:59):
And how about the communes?
PH (01:12:06):
There were something that I always secretly wanted to try because I wanted to run around naked.
SM (01:12:17):
I am going to close out with a few personalities linked directly to Vietnam. William Westmoreland and Creighton Abrams, both of them.
PH (01:12:25):
Yeah. Okay. William Westmoreland, whom I knew a little, I mean, I have interviewed. Not a terribly bright man. A soldier, a strong soldier, but a guy who should not have been in charge of that war at such a critical time. He was not smart enough. Abrams was a bulldog of a warrior.
SM (01:12:54):
And Maxwell Taylor would be the other one.
PH (01:12:56):
Yeah, he was the soldier scholar and he was beloved by the Kennedys precisely for that reason because he could bring history and intellectual thought to it. I think he was a pretty good guy. I really do. I mean, he, of course, was caught up in the lies and the political. People like David Halberstam hate Maxwell Taylor. I do not really understand that.
SM (01:13:17):
General Cao Ky and President Thieu.
PH (01:13:24):
Cao Ky is a cowboy. He is all about his style of his dress and his daring exploits in the air and he is a little Hollywood guy who wants to be on the cover of People Magazine. General Thieu, he is more interesting and a person of more integrity in some ways for me.
SM (01:13:49):
Kent State.
PH (01:13:52):
You can only picture a slope of hill and a people on the ground and a girl reacting in horror, bent down over a body. Whoever heard of Kent State, Ohio the day before that happened?
SM (01:14:13):
Moratorium.
PH (01:14:14):
I was there in October of 1970 or was it (19)69? The moratorium is, the moratorium is-
SM (01:14:30):
I think it is (19)69.
PH (01:14:30):
Is October (19)69. I was there. Masses of people.
SM (01:14:38):
Gerald Ford.
PH (01:14:42):
A good guy. Lyndon Johnson's great comment, "The trouble with Gerry Ford is that he played too much football at Michigan without a helmet." Gerry Ford was a guy who used all of his abilities to their max, but did not have huge abilities as a thinker, but who was skillfully pretty good in the House of Representatives, pretty good as a Congressman. I am being too flip. Good for the years that he was president. We needed somebody. We needed a Midwesterner to help us be okay after Nixon.
SM (01:15:27):
April 30th, 1970 and April 30th, 1975, April 30th, 1970, being the Cambodia invasion, which eventually led to Kent State on May 4th, and April 30th, (19)75 when the helicopter [inaudible]
PH (01:15:42):
The people trying to climb the ladders into this helicopter.
SM (01:15:44):
Yes. Get your thought on those two.
PH (01:15:46):
Well, I can picture the second one much better. The Cambodian invasion? No, and it leads to Kent State, but the April 29th, which is my birthday, and April 30th of (19)75, those helicopters lifting off from the Embassy roof, it is all about our failure there and human desperation and us leaving this country behind and we are trying to claim victory, but we know we have lost. I mean, it is a terrible moment.
SM (01:16:21):
The Berrigan brothers, Philip and Daniel.
PH (01:16:25):
Great men and we talked about them and models of conscience and heart, and both artists in their own right, Dan more than Phillip.
SM (01:16:39):
And Ramsey Clark.
PH (01:16:43):
There should be a thousand Ramsey Clarks in Washington DC and there are not many.
SM (01:16:50):
And of the books that have been written on the (19)60s or the books that were written during the (19)60s, what would be the books that you think are the most influential and important?
PH (01:17:03):
I cannot do it, Steve, because I would leave out the ones that I think of. Michael Harris's Dispatches is one of the great books in the (19)60s. I will have to email you.
SM (01:17:16):
How about The Making of a Counter Culture with Theodore Roszak and the Greeting of America?
PH (01:17:20):
Yeah.
SM (01:17:21):
Those are very important books. Final question, and that is, it is on the boomers themselves again. Are boomers in middle age or approaching old age now? Are they doing what they did when they were young or have they given in. Like a lot of people said during the (19)60s and early (19)70s, "When you guys get older, you are going to change." Remember that, no one over 30 that Jerry Rubin did?
PH (01:17:50):
Yeah.
SM (01:17:51):
Are the boomers still idealistic or have they just gone into the society and raising families?
PH (01:17:59):
It is so hard. Yeah. It is so hard to maintain who you are and your ideals.
SM (01:18:04):
That is all right. Idealism continued.
PH (01:18:06):
It is so hard to maintain it. I guess I will answer it personally. I have said that on my best days as a writer, I am doing something priestly with a small p. I went into seminary and religious life out of some misformed, misguided ideas, but still idealistic. And the goal was to try to make the world better and to help people. On my best days as a writer, I am doing that. And the continuum, I feel, continues with the spectrum, with the teaching I do at Penn, on my best days as a teacher of non-fiction. I am teaching these kids to be better human beings and I am maintaining that idealism.
SM (01:18:53):
And finally-
PH (01:18:54):
You said finally a minute ago.
SM (01:18:56):
Well, this is it. Is there a question that I did not ask?
PH (01:18:57):
No.
SM (01:18:57):
You bastard.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Paul Hendrickson
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Hendrickson, Paul, 1944- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
College teachers; English teachers; Authors; Journalists; Hendrickson, Paul, 1944--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Paul Hendrickson is an author, journalist, and educator. He is a senior lecturer in the English Department at the University of Pennsylvania. He was a former member of the writing staff at the Washington Post. Hendrickson is the author of two books, The Living and The Dead and Sons of Mississippi. Hendrickson attended St. Louis University for his Bachelor's degree in English, and ennsylvania State University for his Master's degree in English.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2003-11-07
Rights
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In Copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.2a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.2b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-01
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
80:31
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0edec070d060d883fec7d6245dfae393.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2012-01-04
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Frank Schaeffer
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Frank Schaeffer is an author at the New York Times who wrote the book \"Keeping Faith\" with his son. The book speaks about their father and son relationship during his service in the U.S Marine Corps. He is now a film director in Hollywood and he still continues to write books about life in evangelical households."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427},"12":0}">Frank Schaeffer is an author at the New York Times who wrote the book <em>Keeping Faith</em> with his son. The book speaks about their father and son relationship during his service in the U.S Marine Corps. He is now a film director in Hollywood and he still continues to write books about life in evangelical households.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Entrepreneurial; Spirituality; Baby boom generation; Westward Expansion; Teenagehood; Divorce; Beat Generation; John F. Kennedy; Pro-choice; Boomer slogans; Activism; Civil Rights Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Gay Rights; Beat Generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5053,"3":{"1":0},"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Entrepreneurial; Spirituality; Baby boom generation; Westward Expansion; Teenagehood; Divorce; Beat Generation; John F. Kennedy; Pro-choice; Boomer slogans; Activism; Civil Rights Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Gay Rights; Beat Generation.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
105:24
Subject LCSH
Authors; Motion picture producers and directors; Schaeffer, Frank--Interviews
Accessibility
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Frank Schaeffer
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Schaeffer, Frank ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Authors; Motion picture producers and directors; Schaeffer, Frank--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Frank Schaeffer is an author at the New York Times who wrote the book <em>Keeping Faith</em> with his son. The book speaks about their father and son relationship during his service in the U.S Marine Corps. He is now a film director in Hollywood and he still continues to write books about life in evangelical households.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2012-01-04
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.3a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.3b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-01
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
105:24
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Raul Torres
Language
English
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Drug scene; Vietnam; Students; Pro-Education; Conscientious Objector; Vietnam Draft; Vietnam War; WWII; Social Conscientiousness; Drug abuse; Boomer Mentality; Korean War; War spending; Civil Rights Movement; Parents; Boomer's; Vietnam Veterans; Veterans for Peace, Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; The Establishment; Richard Nixon"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Drug scene; Vietnam; Students; Pro-Education; Conscientious Objector; Vietnam Draft; Vietnam War; WWII; Social Conscientiousness; Drug abuse; Boomer Mentality; Korean War; War spending; Civil Rights Movement; Parents; Boomer's; Vietnam Veterans; Veterans for Peace, Vietnam Memorial; Generation Gap; The Establishment; Richard Nixon</span>
Biographical Text
Raul Torres <span>is an educator and former principal of Thomas A. Edison High School in Northeast Philadelphia from 1985-1998. During the Vietnam War, Thomas A. Edison High School had the highest casualty rate of any high school in the United States, a fact confirmed by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (non-profit that built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, The Wall, in Washington, DC.) and has been recognized by local, state and federal government officials. 64 Edison students died in the war and they are forever remembered as the "EDISON 64." Raul Torres' brother, Robert Torres-Army Sgt.. is one of the 64. Those who died and served were predominantly African-American and came from a tough neighborhood filled with gangs At the time of the Vietnam War, the high school was an all boys school. The original building is no more, but since those days, through today, the school has memorialized those students with a wall in the main lobby of the school that includes the listing of all 64 who paid the highest price with their lives. The first wall was built in the old school in the 1960's and continues today in a new school at another location. The school and Philadelphia is very proud of these former students who came from a very tough environment and chose service to their nation as stepping stone and or choice to change their lives for the better. The "EDISON 64" will forever hold a place of stature to those times in American known as the 1960's.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
112:22
Subject LCSH
High school principals; Torres, Raul--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Date of Interview
ND
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Raul Torres
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Torres, Raul ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
High school principals; Torres, Raul--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Raul Torres is an educator. He is the former Principal at Edison High School in Philadelphia in the 1980s and 1990s.
Raul Torres is an educator and former principal of Thomas A. Edison High School in Northeast Philadelphia from 1985-1998. During the Vietnam War, Thomas A. Edison High School had the highest casualty rate of any high school in the United States, a fact confirmed by the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund (non-profit that built the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, The Wall, in Washington, DC.) and has been recognized by local, state and federal government officials. 64 Edison students died in the war and they are forever remembered as "EDISON 64." Raul Torres' brother, Robert Torres-Army Sgt.. is one of the 64. Those who died and served were predominantly African-American and came from a tough neighborhood filled with gangs At the time of the Vietnam War, the high school was an all boys school. The original building is no more, but since those days, through today, the school has memorialized those students with a wall in the main lobby of the school that includes the listing of all 64 who paid the highest price with their lives. The first wall was built in the old school in the 1960's and continues today in a new school at another location. The school and Philadelphia is very proud of these former students who came from a very tough environment and chose service to their nation as stepping stone and or choice to change their lives for the better. The "EDISON 64" will forever hold a place of stature to those times in American known as the 1960's.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.4a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.4b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2017-03-01
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
112:22
-
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3c74f4cd9a389dcc17dc01be8f7dd465
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
1996-11-18
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Joseph Lee Galloway
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Joseph Lee Gallaway is a veteran war correspondent and an author. In his writing, Galloway covered conflicts all across the world, including the Vietnam War, the first Persian Gulf War, and the Iraq War. He is the co-author of the Vietnam War book We Were Soldiers Once... and Young, which was later adapted into a movie, We Were Soldiers."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Joseph Lee Gallaway is a veteran war correspondent and author. In his writing, Galloway covered conflicts all across the world, including the Vietnam War, the first Persian Gulf War, and the Iraq War. He is the co-author of the Vietnam War book <em>We Were Soldiers Once... and Young</em>, which was later adapted into a movie, <em>We Were Soldiers</em>.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam Veterans; Free love; Campus Demonstration; Vietnam War; Non-political entity; Veteran Memorial; Baby boom generation; Army; This Noble Land: My Vision for America; James A. Michener; Soviet Empire; Lyndon B. Johnson; George McGovern; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":14281427}}">Vietnam Veterans; Free love; Campus Demonstration; Vietnam War; Non-political entity; Veteran Memorial; Baby boom generation; Army; This Noble Land: My Vision for America; James A. Michener; Soviet Empire; Lyndon B. Johnson; George McGovern; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
107:13
Subject LCSH
War correspondents; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 -- Journalists; Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988 -- Journalists; Iraq War, 2003-2011 -- Journalists; Authors; Gallaway, Joseph Lee--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Joseph Lee Galloway
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Benjamin Mehdi So
Date of interview: 18 November 1996
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(Start of Interview)
00:05
JG: There is home. But in this case, and maybe in every case, that was wrong, that it was not, Dan Garcia, who, whoever left home. He was at home with professionalism, he was at home with his courage. He was at home with those he served with. And maybe, just maybe it is we, who did not go, who did not serve, for whatever reason, who have been away from home all these years. And so, I say, not a welcome home to Dan, but a welcome to the rest of us. That is very powerful stuff.
00:44
SM: Wow. That is.
00:44
JG: And I have showed that to a number of Vietnam veterans, and every one of them just left with tears in their eyes, at how right he got it. And I am sure in my heart that-that-that Peter Goldmark was probably a campus protestor, march against the war. And I wrote him and told him, that I that I really would love to see him, expand on that those remarks and give them to a broader audience. Because where we are now is, is we need reconciliation, this country, the war, rip-rip, ripped the country apart. And either we find some way to forgive each other and forgive ourselves or the world just keep killing us like those old Cambodian mines keep children that were not even born when the war ended.
01:47
SM: See that is the premise of why I am trying to do this project. There were a couple of things that that prompted me to even try to do this. I have worked at universities now for over 18 years. But in the last five years, when we do programs both on and off campus, I have taken students to meet leaders and I got involved with Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Philadelphia. We did a program at my former school at Jefferson where Don Bailey, the former Auditor General, who was a Purple Heart recipient in the Vietnam War refused to sit down with the Vietnam veterans responsible for the wall in Philly. We did a program at my former school at Jefferson where Don Bailey, the former Auditor General, who was a Purple Heart recipient in the Vietnam War refused to sit down with the Vietnam veterans responsible for the wall in Philly. And they, you may remember, uh, many years back when they tried to put the wall together in Philadelphia, that, uh, some of the top Vietnam veterans went to Washington, took the names off the wall, and walked the entire distance back to Philadelphia, and then buried the names right at the, at the ceremony when they opened several years. And Bailey would not shake hands with those veterans. And I thought that kind of- That was my first inkling that despite all the fantastic things with the wall, the healing and so forth, that maybe there is still a lot of healing that has to be done, not only within the Vietnam veteran community, but within the nation as a whole. And then a couple other instances have led up to this desire to try to interview people for their perceptions on questions that I am asking everyone. And then of course, there is spontaneity going in different directions, because my basic purpose here is to- It is a very complex issue, the Vietnam War and the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and the Boomer generation, their impact on America. But I guess I am frustrated because I see tremendous attacks being leveled against the Boomers right now, which is my generation. And first question I wanted to ask you is, when you look at all the current criticisms of the Boomer generation, which is those people born between 1946 and (19)64, but mostly those Boomers who were in college or of college age during the Vietnam War. A lot of criticism's being leveled against them as to the breakdown of American society, the drug scene started then, the divorce rate is on the rise, being the free love and effects and all that other stuff happened at that time. No respect for authority, because on college campuses during the war, there was protests, and they did not respect administrators or anybody in position of authority. Of course, they were lied to by their government. But what are your thoughts on the criticisms today leveling against the entire Boomer generation and the decay of our society going right back to those times?
04:31
JG: Well, the first thing I have to say is that I am not a Boomer. I was born in (19)41, before the war started. I am a prewar model by three weeks. But what that means is that I did not, I did not meet my father until I was four years old, four and a half, when he came back from-from the army. I guess everybody's thoughts about the boomer generation are-are shaped, to a large extent by what you have read and what you have seen of the (19)60s and the (19)70s. My thing is that-that during the (19)60s and the (19)70s, I was out of this country. I went, I have essentially left this country in 1964, and did not come back until 1980. I was a war correspondent in Vietnam, I was a foreign correspondent. I served Tokyo, Vietnam, Tokyo, Indonesia, India, Singapore, and then finished up with three years as the bureau chief in Moscow for UPI. So, I cannot tell you that I ever saw campus demonstration in this country, or that I ever saw confrontations with the police, except as I read them, newspapers and in the magazines, and saw the stories on the wire. So, I guess my view is, is a little removed. And maybe a little less passionate as to what went on. The boomers, I think, had no patent on the changes that took place in this country. They were a catalyst. Sometimes for good sometimes for bad. I am not sure that you can saddle them with responsibility for everything. But they are responsible for enough to make it interesting.
06:59
SM: What were your thoughts? As a person who served in Vietnam, when maybe you were not here in America, but you were-were over there. And you heard about, you heard about the protests, things that were happening on the college campuses, probably, I would say started around (19)65 and until about 1972. What were your thoughts as a person who was over there serving, and then the thoughts of your contemporaries and how you may be changed over the years and your perceptions of-
07:32
JG: The thing is that I always looked as to motive. Personally, after the first six weeks that I was in Vietnam, I found myself rather opposed to this war. I thought it was being fought very stupidly. I thought that we had bitten off a rather larger chunk than this country would ever be able to chew. It did not take long. I mean, I arrived there, sort of all I knew about war was what I had learned in John Wayne movies, and I think on the third day in country, I found myself on a helicopter landing on a hill where a Vietnamese ranger battalion had been overrun and every man killed, and we were there to find and collect the body of the American advisors. And so, you know, I helped carry that man to that helicopter. And I thought to myself, right then and there, this is, this is not, this is not quite what I thought it was going to be.
08:47
SM: Then this is (19)64?
08:48
JG: This is 1965, March-March of (19)65. I landed there, right after the first battalion of US Marines came ashore at Da Nang. And this was immediately thereafter. And you know, and in the process of doing that story, I immediately ran into some IVS volunteers who worked that province. And I said, “I bet you are glad to see Americans here.” And the guy looked at me like I was crazy. He said, “No, this is complicating my life, no end and making it much more dangerous. Before I could drive the roads of this province, rather freely, taking care of people who were starving or needed medical help or whatever. And now I cannot because all Americans have become priority targets”. And so, you know, literally the first week I began finding out stuff that made me question whether this was-was a very wise course we had undertaken to walk. Now as for these people back here, who really, the demonstrations did not get started until late (19)65. I think it was, oh, the old beat poet. Ginsberg had a demonstration in San Francisco in November of 1965. And I think that was one of the very earliest ones. And I, when I was doing research on our book, I-I went back and looked at that, and I found Senator Everett Dirksen, denouncing these people, as communists and traders and suggesting that they all be shot. So, you know, it was a real startling sort of a development at that time. I cannot say that I knew at that time that it happened to me, but I do not think it crossed my, my radar scope. By the time there was a movement, and there was a major confrontation going on. I am afraid that although I oppose the war myself, I could find not a lot to say for these people who also opposed it because I questioned their motives. I thought it was, shall we say enlightened self-interest. It was a protest against the draft far more than it was against the war. And I thought it was very elitist. I thought, you know, I knew who was fighting alongside me in Vietnam, I knew very-very well, because in the first major battle of the war, in the Drang Valley, I met a kid from my high school class that I graduated with in Refugio, Texas. And that was a graduating class of (19)55 kids. And his name was Vincent Cantu. And in that valley, for a dozen more guys, Hispanics, all of them from South Texas, within 20, 30 miles of my hometown, so I knew who was fighting this war. And I knew who was not fighting this war. And so, I had some trouble with their motives.
12:32
SM: Let me check this to make-
12:37
JG: Something to drink?
12:37
SM: I am fine. I got my Coke here. I stopped at McDonald’s. Talking about the motives now kind of moving up to 1996 as opposed to 1965. The Vietnam memorial was built as a nonpolitical entity. I really admire Jan Scruggs, and all the people involved in that whole process making that happen. I know all about the obstacles that he faced with getting that particular part of a portion of land and so forth, but it is a nonpolitical entity. Yet, when I go to the wall, and I have tried to go the last four Memorial Days, I have been there the last form or days and this is my third veterans day in a row to try to get an ambience and a feel for what transpires there, I sense that there is, there definitely is a lot of healing. But I still get the sense that we have a long way to go. And when I say a long way to go, not only amongst the veterans, but the non-veterans, the people who come to that wall, yours truly the Steve McKiernan's, who was in college at that time did not serve. I was a severe asthmatic, and I got out of the service that way. But it was not I was getting out of the service. I just could not serve. I had a very severe asthma. But the division seemed to still be there. And the question I was trying to raise is-is how much healing has really taken place amongst the veteran’s number one? And will they ever forgive those who were on the other side? The those who oppose the war. And the second question is, do you think there is merit in trying to take the next step beyond the wall, which was to heal the Vietnam veterans to try to heal the generation, the whole generation which the divisions still seem to happen? I just liked your thoughts on both of those questions.
14:28
JG: Well, to start, to start at the top of the wall, and the end, the whole sort of homecoming exercise of the last 12 or 15 years has been for the veterans, a very positive, very healing experience. I-I find it very hard to explain to someone who does not carry the same baggage, exactly what it means. The best way, I guess is to tell you that I have never been so privileged and honored as, as this past Veteran’s Day. When I got to hold up, lift up a young boy, four and a half years old Thomas Alexander Rudell, so that for the first time, he could touch the name of his grandfather, my friend, Captain Tom Metzger, who was killed in action,14, November 1965. And over my shoulder, I can see Tom's daughter, I could see both pride and pain their eyes. And so, to me, this is, man this is this is more than any church I have ever been in. It has more power to it. It is without question, the most powerful and healing piece of art that I know of, on the face of this earth. And it is so for most of those who went to Vietnam, it was a place that that for us is- I have seen too much magic there either. There is no other word for it. If you go talk to the volunteers who work at that wall and ask them for their stories. They will tell someone come up and say, “I am looking for someone who knew my father.” And they will say, “Go stand at his panel, and just stay there a while, and something will happen.” And it always does. There is there is a potency to that experience. That is, it is almost overwhelming. But that is healing for those who were directly wounded. If you are going to look for healing for those who did not go for whatever reason, I am not sure that is not the place. They are not going to find healing there for themselves. I do not know what we do about them. What we do about-about reconciliation. This is something that has got to be worked on. And we need to work on it.
17:35
SM: That reconciliation. Talking about almost like Lewis [Burwell] Puller [Jr.] was talking about before he killed himself back in (19)94, when he reached out, when the invitation to Bill Clinton to come to the Vietnam Memorial that year. And then Lewis wanted to sit and right beside him as he was speaking, remember that? I watched it. And I got to know Lewis briefly before he killed himself because I took students to the wall, and he spent three hours with our students there. And then the following spring, killed himself. Our students were quite shocked. But it was, it is the business of healing. That wall is for Vietnam veterans to heal, and their families and those who served because that is what is for, it to pay tribute to them, the people who served this country and gave the ultimate price because they were not welcomed home. But the next step is I would like your commentary in terms of when the invitation was given by Jan, and Lewis was supportive of it, to bring Bill Clinton there. That is, that is to me is tremendous reconciliation, bringing the other side. And it is almost like, I know how veterans feel toward McNamara the most a lot of them hate him because of some of the things he did. But would not the ultimate reconciliation be having him at the wall? Or having your strongest opponents Tom Hayden at the wall? Or trying to say those were very difficult times. We need to heal as a nation and shake hands, forgive. And it is hard to forget sometimes some of the things that went on, especially Jane Fonda going to Hanoi. Now, that is hard to forgive, but-
19:24
JG: Well, I have a-a lot bigger problem forgiving McNamara. He is the guy who knew, and he lied. And he, he lost heart in the war very early on probably as a result of the battle that I fought in. The battle that I wrote about. I think by November 1965, he knew it was a lost cause. And he did not have the balls to stand up, say it. He did not have the balls to give the right advice to his boss, President Johnson. He just silenced himself. He walled off his arm on judgment and was a good soldier for too long, terrible more years. And he did not address any of that in his book that he wrote last year. That-that is a that is a quibbler’s book. It is a book that tries to point blame at everybody but himself. I got no forgiveness for a guy like that. He dies, he goes to hell, ninth level. And Lyndon Johnson is waiting for him. And Boy is he pissed-
20:35
SM: That is amazing he was-
20:40
JG: Clinton-Clinton is the national command authority. He is the chief executive; he is the Commander in Chief of the armed services. On that day that you talk about, when Clinton came to the wall, that morning at Arlington National Cemetery, I was the master of ceremonies at-at Memorial Day services, and I looked at this crowd, I had about 30 minutes with him before he got there. And I saw some who were thinking about making a noise. And I said, ‘Do not do it.” I said, “Whatever else you may think of him, you respect the office, but more important than that, you respect my friends and your friends who rest here”. And I talked about Tom Metzger whose grave is not far from the amphitheater. And I talked about his daughter. And I talked about some other people who are buried there that I said, “Do not you by your actions here today, do not you dare dishonor them.” And they were pretty good. They behaved themselves. And if they would not have, I would have kicked their butts. And I think they knew that too. But I the President of the United States is a different case. I think you have to suspend judgment because of the office, whether you like the guy who is in it or not. And I do not know what Bill Clinton did. I do not think anybody knows what Bill Clinton did except Bill Clinton. If you want to forgive, you ought to confess, I believe that is the way the Catholics deal with it.
22:35
SM: I think when he came there, I wrote an article for The Philadelphia Inquirer. They did not print it. But it was printed it on our campus. And it was basically saying that the wall was the was the step toward healing from the Vietnam War, but I felt I called the visit like the next step. There may have been a lot of veterans that were against him. But when he came to the Vietnam Memorial, I know they were expecting a lot of people to be protesting him. And but there were not that many really, when you look at the numbers that were there, according to- I was not there. That is my shirt come in the next year. Look to me, like there were very few. And there were placards up there. There were more than-
23:14
JG: I was sitting right down there in the VIP seats.
23:17
SM: So, there were more than the 200 that they say there were?
23:21
JG: They had them walled off way up the hill.
23:23
SM: Okay.
23:24
JG: Behind the fence. And, and they were raising the hell. I do not know how many there were, but it sounded like a lot to me. Because I could not, even from that distance. You could hear them chanting, you could hear them screaming. You could hear them hollering. You could hear them taking on an unfamiliar role for them being a protestor.
23:48
SM: That again, goes back to the old business of having a hard time forgiving and forgetting.
23:55
JG: Yeah.
23:55
SM: And-and the wall is supposed to be a place of healing. Nonpolitical, yet there is a political statement being made right there.
24:03
JG: Yeah. Sorry. Life is like that.
24:10
SM: When you look at the Boomers and I got just some general questions, when you look at the Boomer generation, what do you see as their most positive qualities and their most negative qualities? Now you are, you are a couple of years before Jack Smith, I remember when I interviewed him. He is one year older than- But I have never put up a timeframe on Boomers. Because many of the leaders of the protest movement were older graduate students in their late 20s when college students were just coming there at 18, 19. But from your own personal perspective, when you look at the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and the attacks being made in America, what-what are the positive qualities of the young people of that era and one of the negative qualities in your eyes?
24:57
JG: Well, for whatever motive they question. If they ask hard questions, I respect that. They, earlier than most Americans got a quick feel that they were being lied to by their government, by their president. They knew how to raise hell to get attention to what it was-was their cause. All of these are positive things in my view, the government should be looked at with great suspicious of them as they were of Lyndon Johnson. So that is the positive. The negative. Well, I carried the questioning onto lengths and depths maybe they should not have crossed. Anything that opens the country to an epidemic of casual dope use casual sex, casual calls for overthrowing the system and revolution. I think those are all negatives.
26:55
SM: Of course, the overthrowing of-
26:57
JG: And my question would be where the fuck did their revolution go? When the draft ended, juice went out of the movement. And a revolution went down the whole.
27:17
SM: Well, the Boomers always used to- a lot them used to saying college campuses at that timeframe- Of course, I cannot always preface this on college campuses. Because over half of the young people in America, that era did not even go to college. So, we kind of tend to have a tendency at times to just concentrate on what was happening in the schools, and not really investigate what has happened to the other half of the Boomer generation that never attended college. But it is no question that the issues, the issues are what drew students to protest, and that the passion toward those issues, but when the war ended, the Boomers aged. Are they like any other generation? Because Boomers used to say that-
28:04
JG: Forever.
28:05
SM: “We are, we are the most unique generation in American history. Number one, we are going to change the world.” And thirdly, a slogan of that period was it was a very famous Peter Max poster, “You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful.” So, there was that mentality of doing their own thing and, and whatever cause it might be. And the goal would be, hopefully to work together on solving issues. But-
28:33
JG: I, you know, if I am going to fault them for something is that they tend not to clean up the books. You know, they leave a lot of accounts open, things that yesterday they were willing to die for, or at least be uncomfortable for. And when it is done, they do not balance the books. They do not stop and look and say, “Wow, you know, these agrarian reformers that we supported in Cambodia have turned out to be some of the greatest butchers in the history of the world.” Who is protesting? I heard a little bit out of Joan Baez, and that was it. And she was essentially walled off from her whole generation as a consequence. And I have had this argument with, with Boomers before I said, “Where the hell is Jane Fonda?” You have got 3 million dead people. You got bones piled to the ceiling in Cambodia. Where is Jane? Where is Tom? Where-where are the people who cared so much for life. Now, it is all happening in a vacuum because they do not care. They moved on to something else.
30:00
SM: I think Tom Hayden still living his life the way-. He is kind of- he has been in politics out of California. And he is kind of still working hard on the environment and still living as he always did. Although he is very Jane Fonda. What a combination. Has your opinion changed over the last 25 years? When you when you came back in 19? Well, when you were there in (19)65, and then of course, you were over in Europe as a reporter, have you changed your attitudes toward the Boomer generation over that 25-year period? Where have you been pretty consistent in your thoughts on them?
30:40
JG: Fairly consistent. I was a little surprised when they all turned up as lawyers and stockbrokers, driving Volvo's doing the consumer thing. But I guess that is normal. I guess that is a normal progression. But the question is-is that I have had I have had from very early on, and they are still not answered. So no, I have not I have not changed my opinion.
31:20
SM: And those questions are again.
31:26
JG: Where is your revolution? What have you done in this world? You are now turning 50? What have you what have- what is your impact beside the impending bankruptcy of Social Security and Medicare? Where have you left your mark? How have you changed the world? Where- how have you done all those things that you have demonstrated for or demanded? Where is the, where is the beef?
32:02
SM: Would not you say to that, it might be kind of early to say where is the beef? Boomers are just turning 50. And, and this is the time now where they could be leaders the next 10-15 years. So, it is kind of difficult to evaluate them at this juncture. It is a little too early. Would not you say? You are-
32:21
JG: 50, you are getting near the end of the game. You better have a few scouts on your belt, or you are not much of a warrior. You know, this is what they say in the financial planning business. It is time to get serious. Boy, you are going to retire here before long. What have you done? What have you done?
32:52
SM: When you look at the, you know, because you cannot talk about 60 million people just like you cannot talk about all Vietnam veterans. But are there examples of Boomers that you know, who have lived a lifetime of commitment toward a variety of issues? And just as they were when they were 20. They are still doing it at 50.
33:13
JG: Yeah, I would say there are. They have to be out there. I have met some of them. I think like all of us, their-their perspectives have changed. Maybe their causes have changed some.
33:43
SM: I am going to ask a question about trust. When I had a conversation with Senator Muskie, about five years ago, when I took students to Washington, and during the conversation, we were talking about the (19)68 Convention. And at that juncture, I brought up a question about the lack of trust that young people at that time had in people like him, vice presidential running mate, United States senator, you name it. And I wanted him to respond to that. Because I think a lot of people in my generation still do not trust because of what the government did during the Vietnam War. Certainly, the Watergate, everybody knows about Watergate, but the lack of trust, and we see it even amongst the Boomers who do not even vote. Boomers do not vote, and their children do not vote. And a lack of trust and authority already because they were lied to in many respects during the Vietnam War and the-the enemies list that Nixon- all these things have added up and kind of left a psychological imprint into the minds of many of the Boomers not to trust or to ever trust. What is your commentary with respect to that issue of trust am I right on when I am talking about that, and the effect it has had on this generation? And is that, is that one of the lasting effects of those people born between (19)46 and (19)64? Because they went through these experiences they cannot trust and thus they carry that out of their kids, and they do not trust leaders as well.
35:17
JG: I would you know. The strange thing is-is that it is, it is those lower middle class, and lower-class kids who were drafted and shipped first to Vietnam to fight and die, who ought to have less trust in situation than almost anyone, and yet maybe they have more. They still send their children to the army. None of the others do. The army is as a volunteer force, even more isolated than it was as a draftee force by far. Recruitment is all from probably seven Southern states, 80-90 percent of it.
36:10
SM: Oh really?
36:11
JG: Sure. Who sends their kids to the army? There is an economic force and there is, to a lesser extent, sort of familial pressure, there is a 30 percent of them are black. So, there is an economic thing. And there is also the fact that, that, surprisingly, the army may have the most level playing field in American society. If you are a person of color, you go in and if you can meet the standards, you get promoted. So those people who probably have less reason than anybody else to trust-
36:56
SM: Trust more.
36:57
JG: Still trust their children, in the hands of the army in the hands of government, if you will, in the hands of Bill Clinton, who uses the army more readily than any president I have ever known.
37:12
SM: That is an interesting observation. Because-
37:16
JG: Wh-What has happened? The peaceniks are shipping armies. This guy moves, troops at the drop of a hat. It is almost like he does not know that a military course is the last card you play, not the first card. He also does not seem to understand when he was standing out in front of the embassy in London, demonstrating because we were trying to be the world's policeman, what the hell is he doing now? We have an army that is a 911 reaction force. You call we haul? You got someone starving in Rwanda, being killed in the millions by their own government? Hey, we will go fix it. You got a problem in Bosnia? We will send 20,000 American soldiers in there. That is because there is nobody on Capitol Hill. There is nobody in the upper half of your generation, who has a kid in that in that force.
38:35
SM: It is true.
38:36
JG: I do not even know someone who has a kid in that force. If-if war starts tomorrow, there are precisely two people in the US news and world report building who have ever heard a shot fired in anger, and I am half of that force. And the other is a guy who was out in LA who was a grunt.
39:06
SM: Oh, my goodness. How many people were in there?
39:08
JG: Well, there is 130 or 40, editorial side people. But hey, they come out of a different place. They come out of the elite. So, I, you know, basically, their right to be suspicious. Are they right to turn their back on democracy as a system? I doubt that. I would say they are very wrong on that. You know, you have a duty to vote. You have an obligation. It is the simple obligation of citizenship. You live and the freest country on the face of this earth. I think you also have an obligation to defend it, but we will leave that aside. You at least have a minimal obligation to care about who governs it. How it is governed and go down and vote. If you do not do that, you are not much of a citizen are you?
40:11
SM: You are not, definitely. I have seen that amongst college students today. Statistics show that only 18.5 percent of today's young people in entering classes over the last three years have any interest toward being involved in politics, but over 85 percent of them have been involved in some sort of volunteer activity. Now, I am asking myself, and I will ask you the same thing. Is this a sign that students do not feel empowered that their vote does not count that they cannot make a difference? number one, but they feel they can influence other people's lives with their volunteer activity. So, like, an interesting, they can help others. But they are really not feeling empowered to help themselves.
40:54
JG: I do not know the answer to that, I do not know what moves there- they, you know, we are talking, we are sitting here, you and I talking about the Boomers. And, and I can kind of get a fix on them. But I have not got a clue when it comes to the one below them, generation and generation X, whatever you want to call them, you know, these are, these are, this is, this is the generation that-that that is non literate, is the word I am reaching for. But that is not quite it. They are, you know, they do not read books. They are- their information is absorbed visually-
41:31
SM: Fast and sweet.
41:34
JG: Fast, quick. It is computers, it is TV, it is the sort of stuff, and they are not readers. And I do not understand anyone who is not a reader, because it is, it is the very basis of my life. I fell onto it at an early age and-and I have devoured books constantly since then, and it is amazing how far ahead of you they can stay the publishing industry. And now I write books. And I do not know who is going to read them in another 20 years.
42:12
SM: Well, I know that we have computer ages upon us, and in terms of preparing for the future, young people know that they got to be schooling computers, or they are not going to be able to have a decent job, a decent salary, raise a family, you name it. Two good books I would like to recommend for again, in the next question, have you had a chance to read Our War, which is David Harris new book.
42:33
JG: No.
42:34
SM: It is a very good book, for Steven Harris was a protester at Stanford, and went, went to jail for protesting against the war. He was sent to jail for refusing to serve, right. You read the draft; he refused any [crosstalk].
42:50
JG: A guy that stood up, standup guy. I am not going to go do what I think is wrong. And I am willing to pay the price. I got all the respect in the world, like them as much as I do.
43:02
SM: He was in jail, two years, two plus years. I think.
43:06
JG: Good. That was where he should have been. That was where all the rest of them should have been too.
43:10
SM: Schlesinger has written a book called The Noble Land, which is a very good book, James Schlesinger. Oh, excuse me, James Michener. He has written a brand-new book, This Noble Land, and it is reflecting his 93 years on this earth and talking about the problems of American. It is a good book.
43:28
JG: I will give you a good one that that if you have not read, you should, and it is The Living and The Dead. Robert S. McNamara and Five Lives of Lost World.
43:39
SM: I saw him on footnotes. I have not read the book. Yes.
43:42
JG: Just a splendid book. It is a splendid book.
43:46
SM: There is a person who was touched by the war, who did not serve.
43:51
JG: Yeah. Well, he is a young guy.
43:53
SM: I think he is in his early 40s. I am going to mention a few names here of people that were well known to all boomers in America at the time in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. And I just like to have your comments on them as a person from your own perception and maybe their impact on history, if there is such a thing. I got about 20 different names here and we will be short and sweet. Your perceptions of people like Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda.
44:25
JG: You would start with the word the top, the top dogs there. Well, Miss Fonda is an accomplished actress. Mr. Hayden is a pretty good, far left politician in California on local issues. And I do not have a lot of respect for either one of them for the simple reason that they are prime among those who have not balanced the books. When she issued an apology to the “veterans” that was no apology. It was a politician's apology. If I have offended someone, I apologize only because I have offended them not because I did anything wrong.
45:17
SM: What year did you do that?
45:20
JG: Four or five years ago, five or six, the VFW was breathing down her neck and-and she issued a statement. That was ingenious, disingenuous. disingenuous all of those things and did not apologize to anybody.
45:41
SM: I tried to get an interview with her in Atlanta and she rejected an interview.
45:45
JG: I am sure she did. She has made known to be a housewife.
45:55
SM: Then second would be Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin.
46:00
JG: Clown princess. The great court has to have some gestures and they were in.
46:12
SM: Dr. Benjamin Spock.
46:16
JG: Well, Spock raised them. He wrote the book. Ask him if he is happy. The way they turned out. How did his kids turn out? I do not know.
46:28
SM: He has written a brand-new book. He is not too happy with some of the boomers. He is reevaluating-
46:34
JG: Who is he blamed? Their mamas did not read his book, right?
46:42
SM: The Barragan brothers, the two Catholic priests who are.
46:47
JG: Very principled men. They never wavered in their convictions. They were willing, like Harris to go to jail. And did. All I ask is that you be a standup guy, that you make a decision based on your consideration of the evidence, the preponderance of the weight of evidence and stand up and say your peace. And if in the saying of it, you must violate a law then be willing to take the punishment for it.
47:29
SM: It is almost like the same thing that Dr. King was professing during the nonviolent protests. He could not understand why people would not be willing to go to jail for protesting he was, and others said “I do not want to go to jail.” But that is part of being a nonviolent protester.
47:42
JG: I spent three years covering the last days of the Soviet Empire. And it was evil. Reagan got one thing, right. It was an evil empire. I covered the trials of Anatoly Sharansky and Ginsberg and guys like this, and I saw them stand up in the face of certain destruction, and yet clinging to a principle stand there and defy the weight of the most awful dictatorship operating on the face of this earth. And they brought tears to my eyes with their statements. Sharansky’s statement, he was convicted in this kangaroo court, without evidence without anything, he was just convicted. And they asked him made a terrible mistake. They said, “Do you have anything to say?” And we were not allowed in. His brother was there, committing to memory, the words that Anatoly Sharansky was saying to these people, and he walked out and spilled it. And he was crying, and we were crying. And it was it was this is my definition of a standup guy. If more people had done that, the dictatorship would have fallen a lot sooner.
49:19
SM: It is almost like getting back to the Vietnam War in terms of the healing. If there is more of an accountability right now on the part of those who did not serve, where they would be up front of and it is not like Jane Fonda, but they were upfront as to watch. And at the same time, show praise for those who did there could be even a greater healing here in America.
49:39
JG: Sure, you know, I mean, most of the Vietnam vets push to it will tell you “You did not go, you did not want to go. I did not want to go either. If I have been smarter, maybe I would have my folks had a little more money and could have kept me in college.” A lot of what ifs but essentially, there was not a lot to be learned in Vietnam from having gone. The only thing really to be learned there was the nobility of the guy in the hole next to you. The best people I ever met in my life; I feel sorry for people who did not go. Reporters and photographers. Sure. If you are my age, and you were not there, I look at you. And I wonder why. Did you ask to go? Did you try? Did you want to go but you could not get your boss to send you? That is one thing. But you were afraid of your life. And so, you did not go to the biggest story in the last half of our century. You did not go? This is, this is the movie of our generation. And when it happened, where were you? You were out buying popcorn or taking a pee? Where were you? Well, what did I get by going? The only the best friends of mine. The most loyal people that I know, guys, that if I made one phone call, would have a phone tree working like this. And if I needed 200 people out on my farm, for whatever purpose, they would be there tomorrow afternoon. And there are not too many people in this country that can say that.
51:34
SM: Not in 1996.
51:37
JG: When my wife died in January, and I took her home to Texas to bury her. And I was crushed. And I was standing in the family home, and I looked out the window and there stood a dozen Hispanic veterans in Vietnam. They heard they turned up. They had stood beside me before and they were there to stand.
52:07
SM: They care.
52:08
JG: They care. You want to know one other thing?
52:12
SM: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
52:12
JG: The United States Army, the 1st Cavalry Division and the 7th Cavalry Regiments and uniformed delegations to my wife's funeral. So, if you did not go, what you missed was that what you missed was the most important thing in life. And I am sorry, I can forgive you. But I cannot give you that. You got to earn that. Where were you standing? Who were you standing beside? If you are in the mood in the mob, can you make a call today and have 200 people turn up to help you? You would be lucky to get one. So that is how it is.
53:09
SM: The Lyndon Johnson. How about Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara together in there?
53:17
JG: No, let us take them separately. Lyndon Johnson, I mean, it is hard to talk about the man. It really is. There was so much right about him and so much wrong about him, all in the same skin. He was the biggest bundle of contradictions of anybody I have ever seen. He was a liar. He was the quintessence of a Texas dealmaker. He would sell his mama, if it got him what he wanted. He wanted a lot of very interesting things. He wanted an into segregation. He wanted a fair deal for poor Blacks or Hispanics. He wanted somehow to lift them up. But he did not understand the basics of it. He did not understand that you have got to give the guy the tools with which he can lift himself. If you are pulling him up, he does not learn anything, it does not. You know, the heart of this city in the heart of every city in America is a legacy. It is the legacy of Lyndon Baines Johnson and the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. Hey, Nixon did not do that Anacostia, go over and take a look better have some door gunners.
55:14
SM: With those bad sections of town.
55:16
JG: Yeah. How would they get there? How come they are still sitting there? Where are they going? They got there because of Lyndon Johnson. Then that is the good part about it. The bad part is Vietnam. Where he started a war on the installment plan. “We will put a dollar on the table now and a dollar on the table tomorrow and $2 later, and we are going to defraud the American public. We know how many men we are going to send. But we are not going to tell them because they would not like it. We know how many billions upon billions of dollars we are going to spend. But we cannot trust them with that information, because then they will not vote for my programs in Congress, the Great Society programs. So, I am going to flim-flam then.” And nobody a better flim-flam artist than Lyndon Baines Johnson from Johnson City, Texas. So, what does he do? He sends divisions off to war to under strength. He knew early as November of 1965, that he was sending 500 to 600,000 Americans to Vietnam. And yet he could sit there and in his State of the Union speech in January of 1966 said, “We have no plans to increase the force.” He lied, he lied, he lied, and you go to hell for lying the same as you do for cheating and stealing. Robert McNamara-McNamara goes to the same lower level of hell that Lyndon Johnson goes to, and his sin is not only mendacity his sin is arrogance. He lied, he cheated, and he was proud of himself. This guy brought generals to their knees, whipped on them so hard they cried, and he did not have a clue what was going on, or how to make it change. He was a bean counter and he counted beans good.
58:06
SM: Body count, body count.
58:09
JG: Body count, every pernicious influence that Vietnam had tracks right to his fingers you know, I can almost forgive Lyndon Johnson just because he was at least entertaining. McNamara was not even entertaining. He was just evil.
58:33
SM: Bottom line, would you consider him just a bottom-line person?
58:37
JG: Oh, worse because the biggest bottom line of all he got wrong. What do you do if you if the-the accounting-accounting firm that is doing the books of Ford Motor Company or General Motors comes in? Wrong? What-what we do to him nothing? We gave him a nice fat job at the World Bank for 10 years. The son of a bitch that tried to throw him over the rail of the ferry boat to Martha's Vineyard. They should have left him go, okay. All he needed was another 10 seconds and old McNamara had been floating down there.
59:18
SM: That was in Hendrickson’s book, I believe.
59:22
JG: Yeah-yeah. There is a baby boomer who acted on his information and impulse and opportunity and more power to him.
59:31
SM: Couple other people, George Wallace.
59:36
JG: Well, on Wallace, another Southern politician, always far more complex than they appear to be on the surface of it. Doing stuff to get elected when they do not believe in it. Wallace, you know, came on like the biggest seg this country ever saw. And he was not that. He has got a whole lot of black friends and people are forgiving him right and left.
1:00:08
SM: What about Eugene McCarthy?
1:00:15
JG: McCarthy, white guy, smart guy, literate guy you know. The trouble politics in this country is if you want to want win, you got to get down in the mud with the pigs. And Gene McCarthy would not do that. Never did it. Well, he is neither did Adlai Stevenson, these kinds of cerebral guys do not usually win elections.
1:00:45
SM: What about George McGovern?
1:00:49
JG: McGovern, to me is the definition of one too many damn lawyers.
1:00:57
SM: But he was not a lawyer, though. He was a- he had a PhD in history.
1:01:04
JG: McGovern?
1:01:04
SM: Yes.
1:01:06
JG: Becoming lawyers around this town. He has gotten a law degree from somewhere.
1:01:10
SM: He is at the Middle East Studies Institute right now. That is where he is. But he got his PhD in South Dakota. He was just on our campus this past week, he was talking about his daughter, Terry, who died of alcoholism. And he got his PhD in history from University of South Dakota. They are building a library in his name right now there. Then he went off to Congress as, after he got his PhD. ran for office, was a congressman. Then he went on to become a senator. And so, he has, he has a PhD in History. Actually, no one ever calls him Dr. McGovern, because he is a senator, but he was a doctorate.
1:01:44
JG: Damn, I thought he was a lawyer. Sure looks like one.
1:01:48
SM: He is a pretty nice guy.
1:01:49
JG: Well, I have to give him a pass on being a lawyer then.
1:01:55
SM: Some of the other people from that era, Dr. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.
1:02:00
JG: Once again, you are putting two guys together that ought to be considered separately. But Martin Luther King, the greatest orator or this country ever had. Spoken beautifully, thought beautifully. I wonder, what do you would think of the situation today? I wonder what Dr. King would think of Mayor Marion Berry. I wonder what he would think of a generation of black politicians who are the most pernicious influence [audio cuts]
1:02:47
SM: Dr. King?
1:02:49
JG: I wondered what Dr. King would think of a generation of his disciples who are now Black political leaders in the cities of our country. People like Mayor Marion berry of Washington, DC. And when I say they are political leaders, I am on being very kind. People like Barry and the Blacks who administer this city, are more pernicious influence in the lives of the poor Black people of this city than anything else I can think of. How does this come to be? How do the sons of Martin Luther King wind up wheeling and dealing and selling their own people down the river? In this city, there are about 90,000 people on a waiting list for public housing. And the waiting list is years long. There are at any given moment 30 to 40,000, empty public housing units, that this administration cannot manage to quit stealing the money long enough to fix so that those units can be put back in service. They are either so corrupt or so inefficient, or both, that they cannot do a simple job like fixing apartments so that poor woman and all our kids has a place to live. Now who are they hurting? Who are they hurting the most? They do not hurt me. They do not hurt you. They are hurting that woman and her kids. I think Dr. King would condemn them all to a hell they richly deserved and in ringing tones.
1:04:54
SM: And these are boomer African American leaders that are around the city now.
1:04:57
SM: You got it.
1:05:00
JG: I do not know Marion Barry, but I am disappointed in him though.
1:05:03
JG: Well, you have got a situation where they have to declare, essentially declare the District of Columbia School System, bankrupt, where they take it over and put one of my best friends as the CEO, General Julius Becton, find soldier. So, nowhere near a boomer generation, the man is 70 years old, joined the army in 1945, was a company commander in Korea was a battalion commander in the 101st airborne in Vietnam, who was fixed stuff, all his life. He is a builder. And they got to reach out and pull this man out of a richly deserved retirement to take on what is arguably the worst job in America.
1:05:57
SM: This gets off my questions. I will get back to the names again, we will talk about Malcolm X. You said a builder, this man who is coming into the city as a builder. When you look at the boomers, now you are talking about some of the African American leaders here in this city? Are boomers’ builders? Are they the people that bring people together to unite for a cause for the betterment of society? That is very generalistic terms? But though, that was the mentality on the college campuses, and we are going to-
1:06:26
JG: That was what they set out to be, but they did not end up that. They set out with ringing calls for change and revolution. And they do not even make good caretakers.
1:06:43
SM: Look at the life of Malcolm X, what are your thoughts on him?
1:06:48
JG: I do not think much about Malcolm X. I do not know that he was much of a force for good for his people. If his legacy is-is the guy out in Chicago now. If that is his legacy, what is it worth? A man who divides conquered by division.
1:07:18
SM: At the end of his life, though, a lot of young people, they look at his life as a person who changed because everybody knows that Malcolm was at one time in jail. He was a pimp. Of course, he was a follower, and he was also actually white men are devils that type of mentality. But then the last part of his life he changed when he went to Mecca, so some people look at that life as a person who liked change and he saw the good in everyone as opposed to just-just in black people.
1:07:51
JG: What did it get him?
1:07:52
SM: Got him killed. That was what it got. So, well, a couple of other people here and I have got I have got so many on the list, but these are kind of people from the era.
1:08:03
JG: Keep rolling.
1:08:06
SM: Ralph Nader. These are all names the boomers talk, and this is part of their life. These people were part of their life.
1:08:15
JG: Nader is quixote, I guess, still tilting at windmills? He has been consistent. The Soviets always admired consistency. They said, you know, “We do not care what you are as long as you are consistently that. We have a hard time shifting our view you know, so if you are, you are a son of a bitch as long as you are consistently a son of a bitch we can, we can live with you. It is when you-you bounce from side-to-side.” Nader is consistent. I do not know what his ultimate [inaudible]. He balanced the books on him at the end of his life, what he will have achieved in the long run.
1:09:15
SM: What about the people that were the musicians of the era? Certainly, even in Vietnam and music was played over there. People that have the generation, the Bob Dylan the Jimmy Hendrix, The Janis Joplin, Joan Baez, you name it the list go on and on. What-what are your thoughts about those people who performed the music delivered the messages. I know Country Joe and the Fish, boy, is he unbelievable. You know, when he came to Vietnam memorial, a couple of years back and he performed at the top of the wall and you probably there that day and-and I want to interview him, I am going out to California in the summer. And I want to interview him out at Berkeley because I think he has got an awful lot to say. Have you got his Vietnam album too?
1:09:45
JG: no.
1:09:46
JG: Oh, it is beautiful. He actually wrote a whole album on Vietnam. He has beautiful music and I think he did in the last four years. It is all music for the last four years. What are your What are your thoughts on them?
1:10:11
JG: Well, that is the soundtrack of our generation. That was the music that we heard in Vietnam, it was the same music that was heard in the streets here. Music and Musicians are a powerful force. Almost, I should say, as powerful as poets. Not quite, but almost, you know, the older I get, when I want to find truth, I look in the volumes of poetry not in the volumes of history. So, the musicians, they are out there. When I look at them, it is with a certain amount of sadness. Because so many of them burned their lives out so quickly on drugs. Their messages were mixed. They took their own advice too often and-and it killed a lot of them.
1:11:09
SM: Phil Ochs killed himself. Yeah. So, upset. He is disappointed in life, and he just did himself in.
1:11:18
JG: And that should not be, you know, the bar, just the poet's the musicians, they should be our optimists. They should be giving us a message that allows us to go forward, carry on. If they cannot find in their own music, hope what is there-
1:11:51
SM: If you think about, I do not think there has really been anything written on the musicians in depth, individual books, but looking at the musicians and their impact that time. It is just a couple other ones and that is Daniel Ellsberg.
1:12:10
JG: Ellsberg certainly performed a great service by leaking the Pentagon papers, documentary evidence of the lies that had been told of the bankrupted policy of which he was one of the architects. So, his one great act, was an act of leakage.
1:12:40
SM: Of course, Richard Nixon.
1:12:43
JG: Ah now, Nixon is such a complex man. He is one that I have a hard time forgiving. At least as hard as time as I do McNamara. This is the man who came to office to end the war and yet another 20-25,000 men died while he played politics, he and Kissinger, they all end up in the same level of hell with McNamara and Johnson. They really do. Their whatever contributions they made are so outweighed by the evil that they did.
1:13:34
SM: Do you feel that strongly about Kissinger too?
1:13:37
JG: Yeah, oh, more so with Kissinger. Kissinger was so smart. And then, and yet he would sacrifice anything for his own ambition for His own glory. I think about I really, when I went to Indonesia, the ambassador there was a man named Marshall Green, who had been in the Foreign Service all his life. A very honorable, decent man. He started his career in in the Embassy in Tokyo before on the eve of World War II. And he was the assistant secretary for Far East affairs, the year that Nixon and Kissinger decided to begin the secret bombing campaign and in Cambodia and to do the invasion-
1:14:43
SM: That was 1970, yeah, April 30th.
1:14:46
JG: Yeah. And they ran it by him. Sort of pro forma, you know, and he argued with, he said, “No.” He said, “This is wrong. This will achieve no purpose, except to destroy the Cambodian people. It will not alter the end of the Vietnam War in any measurable fashion, not by one day, not by one body. And it will not make the difference between winning and losing. It will be gratuitous offense against a bunch of people who are kind of a sideshow, they are out of it. Do not do it.” And they said, “Fine, Mr. Secretary, your objections are noted, we are going ahead.” And he said, “Wait a minute, maybe I have not been eloquent enough.” And he argued with them. And they said, “Okay, you have had your say, shut up.” And he went back and argued again, at which point they fired him. They made him the ambassador to Australia and made and finished his career as the ambassador to the World Population Planning Council. They destroyed a man, they destroyed millions of men, by their acts. Where do you find forgiveness for this? Where do you find a little wiggle room for a man like Kissinger or Nixon?
1:16:39
SM: It is amazing through the actions of all these politicians. And the effect they had on the young people who were growing up at that time, not only veterans who fought in that war, and everybody who lived in saw the war was run was against the war. And, of course, the Civil Rights Movement was going on at that time, too, so cannot forget about that. But the lasting psychological impact of this has had on us as a nation as well as Senator Gaylord Nelson said, the body politic. And he said, I interviewed Gaylord Nelson, who was against the Vietnam War, one of the first senators and he said “He does not know anybody who walks around with lack of healing on their sleeve was a boomer about the Vietnam War. But he did say that that war destroyed the body politic. And it has never been the same sense.
1:17:35
JG: It has not, quite right. You know, if you have to go back in our history, the only other event as-as divisive and corrosive to the American way of governing and being governed the body politic, as the senator said, you go to the Civil War, and there is the same depth of division, anger and bitterness in Vietnam than there was in that. Excuse me. And I do not know, you still get in a pretty good fistfight down the south over the Civil War. And we are 120 years past it. So how long does Vietnam last? How long is it an influence in the life of this country? You know, it could be long past, our lifetimes, our lifespans, and probably will be. I participated in the making of a documentary film. We took a dozen Vietnam veterans back to Vietnam and walked our battlefield in the company.
1:19:01
SM: I saw that.
1:19:01
JG: The man who tried to kill us, but when they were doing in studio interviews, I met [inaudible] daughter was one of the people carrying [inaudible]. And she gave the story of her father and what his death in battle did to her life. And at some point, Forrest Sawyer said, “Well, the book has been written, it is this close the circle.” And she looked at him like he was crazy. She said, “The story is not over. It is not over as long as I draw breath. That war killed my father when I was 17 months old, and it will not be over for me during all my life, nor will it be over during the lives of my children. So how long do we reach out? How long does it go?
1:20:07
SM: Last name I have here is actually two of them. Your thoughts on Spiro Agnew and what he was doing back here as the vice president and Gerald Ford, the partner.
1:20:22
JG: Oh, Agnew. He was he was such an inconsequential person. You know, I do not even think about it. He just does not matter. He did not matter, then he does not matter now. He was not even a good puppet. Who else was it that you asked about?
1:20:53
SM: Gerald Ford.
1:20:54
JG: You asked Gerald Ford, Gerald Ford. You know? I thought Gerald Ford was good man. I thought he was probably the right guy to be the caretaker president after Nixon. I wish he had not given out any pardons. I think Nixon, Kissinger should have been in a cell right down the road from John Mitchell and the rest of those guys. But you know, there was a cartoon that somebody good drew the day that Ford left office. And it was maybe Herb Block, I do not know. But it was very interesting. What he did was he had Ford up a ladder cleaning the seal of the President of the United States wearing a painter's hat. And when he started this, he was encrusted with filth and grime and-and it had him finishing up it was, it was back in shape. It was looking pretty good. And I thought that was a pretty fair, pretty fair estimate. You know, you can just as you cannot say anything about Spiro Agnew, because he was inconsequential. You cannot really say much bad about Jerry Ford. He was decent.
1:22:41
SM: He was a bad golfer.
1:22:42
JG: He was a bad golfer, but a decent man, a decent human being. And have we had a Spiro Agnew as the successor to Nixon? I am not sure that we would be sitting in the United States of America, the place might have come a fight.
1:23:00
SM: It would have, they hated him on college campuses. With one quick question here today, two the interview, the Vietnam War ended. Why?
1:23:13
JG: Why did it end?
1:23:14
SM: Yeah, why did the Vietnam war end?
1:23:16
JG: Because the American people had had it right up to their epiglottis. They had it with the coffins coming home. They had had it with the lies of the politicians they had it with the body count. Hey, we won. Because we killed 10 of them for every American, they killed. It is not a bargain; the American people knew. They knew it was not a bargain. And-and they wanted, they wanted it stopped. Not for what the kids were doing in the streets but for what that war was doing to our country. It stopped because the American people stopped it. They did not want it anymore.
1:24:13
SM: There are two or two or three issues that define a generation. Boomers, I think historically will always be attached to the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights Movement, even though the Civil Rights Movement was really strong in the (19)50s and the early (19)60s.
1:24:29
JG: Yeah, exactly. I would say-
1:24:30
SM: And actually-
1:24:30
JG: They had less to do with the Civil Rights Movement. What that was, that was a-
1:24:37
SM: Is not it interesting though, that a lot of movements came about at the time of the Vietnam War, the Women's Movement came about at that time. Of course, the whole you know, what happened about the Vietnam Memorial now. We have got the nurses being recognized at the wall. There were so many, I mean, the Native American Movement, the Hispanic Movement, there were so many movements happening all at the same time. And they were all protesting against what was going on in America. But it is like- that protest mentality really came about because of the Vietnam War and a few of the things that were happening on college campus respect to administration and not being allowed to do political activities on campus. So, there were some things in school too. But what is the lasting legacy? What do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation who are now reaching 50? Do not forget, they are, they are 50 years old, or from 34 to 50 right now.
1:25:30
JG: Yeah, well, there is still time for him to get their shit together. There is still time for them to leave some kind of legacy dividends for the stockholders of the Volvo Motor Company you know, I read the financial papers and I see them talking about “Well, the Boomers did not, have not saved any money but that is okay. Because their mamas and daddies are dying now. And they are inheriting their money.” And thank God their mamas and daddies did save. Is thisthis what you are going to say at the end? Well, they-they inherited some money. So, they were able to live okay. Even though Social Security went down the tubes and so did Medicare. You know, they got to get their shit together and get to work and fulfill some of their promises. You want to you know, it. I am 55 now. And for the last five, six years, my thoughts have really turned to trying to leave a legacy of a little better world for my sons who are 16 and 18. I would really like them to inherit a kinder, gentler world. And I pray every day that they will never know war as I have known it. That they will never see a young man dying in their arms as I have and see the life flow out of him, and you are helpless to do anything. I do not want that for them. I do not want that for any son and any daughter in this country. So, you know, what I guess I am saying is that- very good friend of mine died about three years ago, a guy named B. T. Collins. He was a California politician. He had been Jerry Brown's Chief of Staff. He was Pete Wilson's great friend. Now if you can do those two things. He was also a double amputee, lost a leg and an arm in Vietnam with Special Forces. Had his 100 percent disability pension. He could have walked out of Valley Forge Hospital, a bitter-bitter man and never contributed anything. Instead, he went off to law school and spent what was left of his life really, working harder than any three men I knew toward healing the body politic. Toward helping the helpless toward making the system work. Now nothing wrong with that. Nothing to say that the boomers cannot do that. In fact, what I am saying is that they should, and they ought and if they want to leave a legacy somewhere beyond that is something more than the headlines, sex, drugs and rock and roll, then they got to bend down and do it. They picked up somewhere along the way a reputation for selfishness. And it started at the beginning. They were too good to go fight in this war. That was the work of poor people, the children of poor people and the disadvantaged. We have a president in the White House today said” I will not risk my viability as a politician in the future by going to Vietnam where I might get killed.” So, we have them, the worst of the yuppie movement. And it was pernicious and is. “He who dies with the most toys wins.” These are not legacies. These are things to overcome. And I do not mean get out there and hug trees. I mean, get out there and do something for people.
1:30:41
SM: Good point because we talked about the yuppies. They live in certain sections of cities, a lot of them are boomers. Yeah, one of the basic premises, if I remember correctly, and when I was in college, “Money does not matter.” I heard that over and over again, it is not about money. It is not about it yet.
1:31:01
JG: And there they are.
1:31:02
JG: Yeah, some of them are still “Money is not meant anything to me. I have stayed in higher education my whole life, because-because of what happened.”
1:31:08
JG: Good thing it does not mean anything to you.
1:31:10
SM: Yeah.
1:31:10
JG: Yeah.
1:31:11
SM: But I am guilty. We had Congressman Penny on our campus. And he said that “The boomers just do not save.” And he said, “You know, something, Steve?” He said that “ I have not saved either.” Remember, Congressman Penny, you left a couple of years ago, a Democrat from Minnesota. He, he is not poor by any means. But I am saying he is raising five kids. And he says, “I am just part of the legacy. I do not save either.” And so, there is some truth to that. Nope, they do not save.
1:31:35
JG: They do not save.
1:31:45
SM: As if there is no tomorrow. And I do not know if that says something about the boomers that “I am going to live for today. Because there is no tomorrow,” I do not know. So.
1:31:45
JG: Well, then you get to be over 50. You better rethink your position.
1:31:51
SM: The last question, I am going to ask then we will be finished here. I might go over into the next little section here in the tape, that is getting back to the wall. In 1982, I think it was (19)82 for the opening? Are you pleased with what the wall has done for America? Not the Vietnam veterans now what it has done for America as a whole? Because it is pretty well known fact that anybody who comes to that wall, whether they were in the war, family members of someone who served in that war, or someone who died in that war, or someone who remembers their college experience during that war, or if they were working in a factory during the war, and did not go to college, all those flashbacks of where I was, come back, and then then the little kids are right there. And they say to their dad or mom, “Dad, what did you do?” Kids will always ask those kinds of questions. And I am wondering that-that is what it means to me. I have to keep going back because when I was a college student, you know, I guess there might be some sort of guilt that I wish I had served, but I could not serve because I had a severe asthma. And, and it was 1970. And I was in the hospital during the Cambodia invasion. I was graduating in 1970 at State University in New York at Binghamton. And I broke my arm and it was a very serious arm break, and I almost had it amputated and I was in the operating room for five hours, about two weeks before graduation. And everybody in my whole family was in the hospital and the Cambodian invasion was happening, April 30. That was April 30, 1970. I was in the hospital for two straight weeks, two days before I went under graduation. It was a magic moment for me, because the doctor who came in and after he had operated and saved my arms. And he said, “I wish they would shoot all those damn kids; I wish they would kill them all.” And I said, “As a college senior, who saw the tremendous divisions in America, I want to do something in my own small way to bring people back together again. So, I get real emotional about the Vietnam War, even though I did not serve because I care about Vietnam veterans. I have been working with them in Philadelphia since 1983. So, when I worked with him on the wall in Philadelphia, and we help raise money, it is a long story. But I wanted to do something in my own small way. As I said this to Jan once too. And I really said it to Lewis, when we took our students to the wall, to try to do the next phase to assist the process that began at the wall. And that is to write some sort of a book about this very complex era, in this very complex time. Pick some of the best people in America and ask them the tough questions and just let them reveal so that we can kind of heal as a nation, even beyond the Vietnam veterans. And I actually have an ultimate goal beyond this. The ultimate goal is I have been thinking that I may even go to Oliver Stone because I know Robert Groden, who was a consultant with the movie JFK, to get financial backing to bring to the university campuses of America and maybe to the town halls of America in two years, symposiums over a nine-month period, one per period, bringing back those who were for and against the war, people who serve in the war, just to try to bring them together to try to understand. Almost like the Jimmy Carter concept when he does have the Carter Center to bring the sides back. Just do something to help and assist. And I always quote in my own small way. So, my final question is-is this such an effort worthy of the effort number one? And just your overall thoughts, again, the overall impact that the wall has had on America beyond the veterans, because I know what-what the effect is had on the veterans?
1:35:56
JG: Well, it reaches far beyond the veterans for the simple reason that that I saw someone did an estimate that there are 40 million Americans who have some personal connection to a name in the wall. They were a college classmate, or-
1:36:17
SM: Me, too.
1:36:17
JG: They were a high school classmate, or you know, an in law, a sibling, whatever. 40 million Americans care about at least one of those names on that wall. So, they care about all of them. And what has its impact. The other thing that is operating there, and operated, you know, when they were doing the welcome home parades for the Gulf veterans, and they went far overboard and out of proportion in doing this, and I, you know, a lot of my friends called up and said, “I think I am angry about this.” And I said, “Do not do that. Because what they are doing is they are overcompensating because they did nothing for you. So, this is as much for you as it is for them. And so, you go on down to the parade. And, and you watch because this is America saying 20 years too late. Welcome home all of you. Welcome Home Vietnam veterans too.” And that was the way it worked in the parades. The young troops would reach and pull the veterans off of the curbs and into the parade. So, my counsel was “Let go of the bitterness, it is misplaced. The American people know what they did not do. And they are ashamed of it”. And the thing is where we come to, is that here we have a country where only three million win. And today, I would bet you that out there in the land, there are 10 million wannabes who are pretending that they did go.
1:38:32
SM: Really?
1:38:32
JG: What does this say?
1:38:34
SM: There are those types of people that say they are a veteran.
1:38:37
JG: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Any number of them. We detect them all the time. And then-
1:38:45
SM: That is the worst.
1:38:46
JG: That is, in our view, imitation is not any sincere form of flattery, but-but here today in this country, there are a lot of people who pretend to be Vietnam veterans. Now, this is not a sea change of attitude. I do not know what is.
1:39:09
SM: I had never heard that before.
1:39:12
JG: Oh, there are guys who specialize in debunking these frauds. And they turn up in amazing places, not a federal judge, but a high-ranking judge in Chicago, was presenting himself as a Vietnam veteran and Medal of Honor recipient and got an AO.
1:39:33
SM: People do not speak-
1:39:38
JG: The publisher of The Arizona Republic, Dan Quayle’s family newspaper, presented himself as a Vietnam veteran fighter pilot. False, got caught, got fired.
1:39:54
SM: Put it on the resume and the whole-
1:39:56
JG: Yeah.
1:39:56
SM: Oh my goodness.
1:39:57
JG: Yeah, politicians do it all the time. But worse, yet you have the guys who put on the kameez and put on medals to which they are not entitled, and-and go around presenting themselves and their opinions as those of Vietnam veterans. But what a distance we have come.
1:40:16
SM: Gosh. Yeah.
1:40:20
JG: To put Vietnam veteran on your resume would have been a guarantee 20 years ago-
1:40:25
SM: No job.
1:40:26
JG: That you were not going to get that job.
1:40:27
SM: That is amazing. Yeah, I just go to the wall. I have gone now seven times. And I call Jan's office and I get the pass. I take students there now. I am probably going to take some students there on Memorial Day, this next year, because we graduate late, I took three to Veterans Day last year. And I took students to meet-
1:40:46
JG: You have got to watch them. They have got a lot of frauds down there.
1:40:49
SM: Oh, at the, at the ceremonies themselves?
1:40:52
JG: Oh yeah, the wall. A couple of- three years ago, up turns a young lady, quite striking and attractive, who said that she was the daughter of Oliver Stone’s Sergeant Elias. And Sergeant Elias’s name is indeed on the wall. And she came to a meeting of the sons and daughters, the organization for children of men who were killed in Vietnam. Told her long and sad story and went down to the wall and full Apache regalia and did the burning of the feathers and all of this crap and-and I think she even made it onto the platform the year, the year after, and then shortly thereafter, it was discovered that the whole tale was just that, a tale.
1:41:52
SM: Oh my God.
1:41:54
JG: So, this is one more strange story in a town full of them.
1:42:02
SM: My goodness. I see a lot of people there every year. It is packed every year. I see the people talking, "Where did you serve," and everything. And they ask me. And everybody asks every time I sit there, except when I was with the students, they knew I brought students. And I said, "I did not serve." But I know back in 1983, when I first came to Philadelphia from California because I worked out there at another university, that I got to know the Vietnam veterans. Because we were going to do a program on the posttraumatic stress disorder with Dr. Harry Schwartz, who was at Jefferson Medical School. And I got to know Harry Gaffney and Dan Fraley, and Dennis Best, some of the Vietnam veterans are well known in Philadelphia who did the markings. And Harry said, "Steve, I am going to tell you right now, you are not one of us." But you have to gain the trust of the Vietnam Veterans. So, all the people that I invited, I met with 20 of the top Vietnam veterans, Wally Nunn, CEO in Philadelphia who was close to, I forget who it is, Mayor Rendell, whatever. But I had to be very open and at the outset, that I did not serve, and I told them why. And they said that was very important, first, to be honest, and open, and upfront about it. And then, the second thing is to try to put this program together and to show you care. And so, what we did, we did that program. And I got it on tape, too. It was a very good program. But it got to be so darn political, because Don Bailey would not shake the hands of the Vietnam veterans that were there, who worked so hard on the Wall. And I could not believe that here is a guy, a Purple Heart winner, and Don Bailey was a Purple Heart winner, yet he refused to go up into the room with Harry and Dan. And I could not understand the bitterness there when all they cared about was creating that Wall in Philadelphia. And I do not know if you have been to the Wall in Philly, but it is a beautiful wall. They have had a lot of problems with graffiti. People try to destroy. There is a lot of roadblocks to getting that property as well. Of course, Edison High School has the most people who died in the Vietnam War. So, it is a-
1:44:03
JG: A good guy you may want to go to go look up. I am reading the story. Someone handed it to me at the wall. It is a Denver Post story about a Vietnam veteran. He was one of McNamara's Project, 100,000 guys. These are the people where they went out and they lowered the standards. So, they were taking people with an IQ of 60 and below and making drafting them and making them soldiers and sending to Vietnam where they died at a rate three times higher than the average draftee. This is by way of they said, "Bootstrapping. We are going to help these guys out of poverty and out of the inner city. So, we are going to send them to the army." Well, this guy out in Pueblo, Colorado is one of those guys. And he is 100 percent disabled, unable to work. Launched a personal campaign five years ago, basically around the malls and the grocery stores with a can collecting dimes, and quarters, and dollars to build a Memorial.
1:45:23
SM: In Denver?
1:45:23
JG: Stones in Pueblo.
1:45:25
SM: Oh Pueblo, okay.
1:45:26
JG: With the 680 names of the Coloradoans killed in Vietnam, and this guy is barely functional, but he managed to go around to companies and get them to agree to help. He got someone to agree to engrave the names, somebody else to donate the stone. He went to the city council and made a presentation and got them to cough up 15 grand and bang they dedicated it last two weeks ago.
1:45:55
SM: An article in the Denver Post?
1:46:00
JG: Yeah, and on the day, they dedicated the Veterans Administration cut his pension in half because if he could do such a project surely, he could do a job too.
1:46:12
SM: Is that where we are today?
1:46:13
JG: Is that where we are today? You bet your ass.
1:46:17
SM: Yeah, I have got to get a copy. Do you know who? Is it the Denver Post of-
1:46:20
JG: Denver Post-
1:46:22
JG: People probably know by calling to get the-
1:46:23
JG: Call him. They got it.
1:46:27
SM: Any other lasting words of advice? Any thoughts on the boomer generation?
1:46:32
JG: No. I will let what you have got stand. I probably said too much too bluntly.
1:46:38
SM: No-no, that is what I wanted.
1:46:38
JG: And all I do is say what is in my heart.
1:46:41
SM: When I met with Jack Smith, I asked him “Who should I interview?” And he-he just said one name, you. That is unbelievable.
1:46:51
JG: Jack is a wonderful man. I do not know how he retained his sanity going through what he went through. I went through some stuff but nothing like that stuff.
1:47:09
SM: Yeah, he is, he is unbelievable.
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Joseph Lee Gallaway
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Gallaway, Joseph Lee ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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War correspondents; Vietnam War, 1961-1975 -- Journalists; Iran-Iraq War, 1980-1988 -- Journalists; Iraq War, 2003-2011 -- Journalists; Authors; Gallaway, Joseph Lee--Interviews
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Joseph Lee Gallaway is a veteran war correspondent and an author. In his writing, Galloway covered conflicts all across the world, including the Vietnam War, the first Persian Gulf War, and the Iraq War. He is the co-author of the Vietnam War book <em>We Were Soldiers Once... and Young</em>, which was later adapted into a movie, <em>We Were Soldiers</em>.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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1996-11-18
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.5a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.5b
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2017-03-01
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McKiernan Interviews
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107:13