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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/edbc614873d4137fc049bb6701ef4f08.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2009-12-11
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Meta Mendel-Reyes
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Meta Mendel Reyes is a professor at Berea College and she teaches Peace as well as Social Justice. She received her Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of California at Berkeley. She loves to be a community service worker for people in California and she helps people in Philadelphia with race-related issues."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13059,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Meta Mendel Reyes is a professor at Berea College, where she teaches Peace as well as Social Justice. She received her Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of California at Berkeley. She loves to be a community service worker for people in California and she helps people in Philadelphia with race-related issues.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Kent State; Assassination of John F Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Women's movement; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-war movement; Chicano Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Vietnam War; Activism; College campus; Vietnam Memorial."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Kent State; Assassination of John F Kennedy; Baby boom generation; Women's movement; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-war movement; Chicano Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Vietnam War; Activism; College campus; Vietnam Memorial.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
71:15
Subject LCSH
College teachers; Berea College; Social justice; Mendel-Reyes, Meta--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dr. Meta Mendel-Reyes
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mendel-Reyes, Meta ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
College teachers; Berea College; Social justice; Mendel-Reyes, Meta--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Dr. Meta Mendel-Reyes is a professor at Berea College, where she teaches Peace as well as Social Justice. She received her Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of California at Berkeley. She loves to be a community service worker for people in California and she helps people in Philadelphia with race-related issues.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-12-11
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.98
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
71:15
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/98c7655a604a1a4f6ec3b61a27d317fc.mp3
1cc853ed93ce607c36fb98950fc0c23c
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Rachel Robinson, 1922-
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Rachel Robinson is a former professor, nurse, philanthropist, civil rights activist, and the wife of Jackie Robinson. Robinson attended the University of California and she graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Nursing. Additionally, she received several awards for her hard work among the population of black people in the world."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Rachel Robinson is a former professor, nurse, philanthropist, civil rights activist, and the wife of Jackie Robinson. Robinson attended the University of California and she graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Nursing. Additionally, she received several awards for her hard work among the population of Black people in the world.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
62:23
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"African American; Student-athletes; Segregation; Jackie Robinson; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; NAACP; Birmingham Church Bombing; Baseball; The Dodgers; Black Student Union(BSU)."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">African American; Student-athletes; Segregation; Jackie Robinson; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; NAACP; Birmingham Church Bombing; Baseball; The Dodgers; Black Student Union(BSU).</span>
Subject LCSH
College teachers; Nurses; Philanthropists—United States; Civil rights workers; Athletes' spouses; Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972; Robinson, Rachel, 1922--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Rachel Robinson
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Robinson, Rachel, 1922- ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
College teachers; Nurses; Philanthropists—United States; Civil rights workers; Athletes' spouses; Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972; Robinson, Rachel, 1922--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Rachel Robinson is a former professor, nurse, philanthropist, civil rights activist, and the wife of Jackie Robinson. Robinson attended the University of California and she graduated with a Bachelor's degree in Nursing. Additionally, she received several awards for her hard work among the population of Black people in the world.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.99
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
62:23
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f6e2e9c06fa5a2ac33a87fe2a657e087.jpg
10b8a0ad3b4abd697b8fa025b5c473bc
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2011-08-14
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ron Robinson
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Ron Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson served as the Director of the Long America's For Freedom (1977-1979), President of the United State Youth Council (1983-1985) and President of the International Youth Year Commission. He was also an advisor at the U.S. Department of Education during the Reagan administration. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America.<br /><br /><br /></span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
62:13
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Howdy Doody; Nuclear threat; Conservatives; Leftist; Senator Jim Buckley; Lee Edwards; The Young Americans for Freedom; Senator Barry Goldwater; Vietnam War; New left."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Howdy Doody; Nuclear threat; Conservatives; Leftist; Senator Jim Buckley; Lee Edwards; The Young Americans for Freedom; Senator Barry Goldwater; Vietnam War; New left.</span>
Subject LCSH
Lawyers; Robinson, Ron--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Ron Robinson
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Robinson, Ron ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Lawyers; Robinson, Ron--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Ron Robinson is a native of Buffalo, New York. He has been Young America’s Foundation president for over four decades. Robinson served as the Director of the Long America's For Freedom (1977-1979), President of the United State Youth Council (1983-1985) and President of the International Youth Year Commission. He was also an advisor at the U.S. Department of Education during the Reagan administration. Robinson received a Bachelor's degree in Political Science at Canisius College and a Juris Doctor degree at The Catholic University of America.<br /></span>
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2011-08-14
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.100
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
62:13
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-09-23
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Minnie Bruce Pratt
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Minnie Pratt Bruce, born in Selma, Alabama, is an American educator, activist and essayist. She is also a Professor of Writing and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University, where she was invited to help develop the university’s first LGBT Study Program. Dr. Bruce has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Alabama and a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of North Carolina."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Minnie Pratt Bruce, born in Selma, Alabama, is an American educator, activist and essayist. She is also a Professor of Writing and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University, where she was invited to help develop the university’s first LGBT Study Program. Dr. Bruce has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Alabama and a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of North Carolina."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Minnie Bruce Pratt</span></span><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Minnie Pratt Bruce, born in Selma, Alabama, is an American educator, activist and essayist. She is also a Professor of Writing and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University, where she was invited to help develop the university’s first LGBT Study Program. Dr. Bruce has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Alabama and a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of North Carolina."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,16777215],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">, born in Selma, Alabama, is an American educator, activist, and essayist. She is also a Professor of Writing and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University, where she was invited to help develop the university’s first LGBT Studies Program. Dr. Pratt has a Bachelor's degree from the University of Alabama and a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of North Carolina.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Southern segregation; White supremacy; Black Panthers; SNCC; Women's liberation; LGBT; Oppression struggles; Response to violent protests; Baby boom generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Southern segregation; White supremacy; Black Panthers; SNCC; Women's liberation; LGBT; Oppression struggles; Response to violent protests; Baby boom generation.</span>
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
93:56
Subject LCSH
College teachers; Political activists--United States; Syracuse University; Pratt, Minnie Bruce--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Dr. Minnie Bruce Pratt
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Pratt, Minnie Bruce ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
College teachers; Political activists--United States; Syracuse University; Pratt, Minnie Bruce--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Minnie Bruce Pratt, born in Selma, Alabama, is an American educator, activist and essayist. She is also a Professor of Writing and Women’s Studies at Syracuse University in Syracuse, New York, where she was invited to help develop the university’s first LGBT Studies Program. Dr. Pratt has a B.A. from the University of Alabama and a Ph.D. in English literature from the University of North Carolina.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
ND
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.182
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
93:56
-
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https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eba6b20100b0b3295511a96b460dcc8e.mp3
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js)
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-12-03
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Jo Freeman
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jo Freeman is an American feminist, political scientist, writer, and attorney. She attended the University of California at Berkeley and she became active in an organization involving the civil rights movement. In addition, she authored feminist articles and papers on social movements."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Jo Freeman is an American feminist, political scientist, writer, an attorney. She attended the University of California at Berkeley and she became active in an organization involving the civil rights movement. In addition, she authored feminist articles and papers on social movements.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
211:56
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"University of California, Berkeley; Liberalism; Radicals; San Francisco; Students for a Democratic Society; Sexism; Ronald Reagan; Free speech protesters; Women's Rights Movement."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">University of California, Berkeley; Liberalism; Radicals; San Francisco; Students for a Democratic Society; Sexism; Ronald Reagan; Free speech protesters; Women's Rights Movement.</span>
Subject LCSH
Feminists—United States; Political scientists; Authors; Lawyers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Freeman, Jo--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Interview with Jo Freeman
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Freeman, Jo ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Feminists—United States; Political scientists; Authors; Lawyers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Freeman, Jo--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Jo Freeman is an American feminist, political scientist, writer, and attorney. She attended the University of California at Berkeley and she became active in an organization involving the civil rights movement. In addition, she authored feminist articles and papers on social movements.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-12-03
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.102a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.102b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
The size or duration of the resource.
211:56
-
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription
This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field.
This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part.
Date of Interview
2010-05-13
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Stephen Gaskin
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Stephen Gaskin (1935 - 2014) was an American counterculture Hippie Icon. He was an author of over a dozen books and a political activist. He went to prison in 1974 for marijuana possession and his voting rights were rescinded. Gaskin was a recipient for the first Right Livelihood Award in 1980 and an inductee in the Counterculture Hall of Fame in 2004."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15105,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Stephen Gaskin (1935 - 2014) was an American Hippie counterculture icon. He was an author of over a dozen books and a political activist. He went to prison in 1974 for marijuana possession and his voting rights were rescinded. Gaskin was a recipient for the first Right Livelihood Award in 1980 and an inductee in the Counterculture Hall of Fame in 2004.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
MicroCassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
138:44
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Sexual Relations; Free Speech Movement; Baby boom generation; Women's Rights Movement; Sex; Drugs; Rock n' Roll; Vietnam Memorial; Healing;Free Speech Movement; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Government Corruption; Woodstock; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weatherman; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Lyndon B. Johnson; Black Panthers."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"arial,sans,sans-serif"}"><span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Sexual Relations; Free Speech Movement; Baby boom generation; Women's Rights Movement; Sex; Drugs; Rock n' Roll; Vietnam Memorial; Healing;Free Speech Movement; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Government Corruption; Woodstock; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weatherman; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Lyndon B. Johnson; Black Panthers."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"arial,sans,sans-serif"}">Sexual Relations; Free Speech Movement; Baby boom generation; Women's Rights Movement; Sex; Drugs; Rock n' Roll; Vietnam Memorial; Healing; Free Speech Movement; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Government Corruption; Woodstock; Hippies; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weatherman; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Malcolm X; Eugene McCarthy; George McGovern; Lyndon B. Johnson; Black Panthers; </span></span><span>Samuel Ichiye Hayakawa; </span>Sixties; The Farm; Stephen Gaskin; Ina May Gaskin; Tennessee; United Nations NGO; Community; Activism; H. Rap Brown; Ralph Featherstone; Mo Udall; Black Panthers; Oren Lyons; Jerry Garcia; Grateful Dead; Tim Leary; Pig Pen; St. Stephen; Bobby Seale; Stokely Carmichael; Russell Means; Beatnik; San Francisco State; Midwife.
Subject LCSH
Authors; Political activists--United States; Hippies; Gaskin, Stephen--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Stephen Gaskin
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers
Date of interview: 13 May 2010
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(Start of Interview)
0:15
SM: First question I want to ask is, before I even talk about your life and your experiences when the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, and what do you think and when did it end?
0:31
SG: Well, the beginning of the (19)60s for me, was a little late because I was finishing up my master's degree, in the real early sixties. And I got my master's, I think in (19)63, I taught (19)64 to (19)65. And the (19)60s began in (19)66 for me. And that was when I realized they were not going to fire me, but I had become too weird to rehire.
1:00
SM: Hmm. And that was when you were in San Francisco State?
1:04
SG: Right, I taught Shree years as San Francisco state, I got my bachelor's there, and my master's.
1:09
SM: Well, obviously, you went off in 1970 form the commune, but-
1:16
SG: We went off in 1970 because [inaudible] tour, we had no idea we were going to make the community. We always say "community", down south people who live in communes are called communists.
1:30
SM: Wow. When did the (19)60s end in your opinion?
1:35
SG: Well, see, people talk about, you know that the (19)70s was such a mess and came apart and stuff but for the (19)70s was the ten years we spent really working smart and loving each other for the work that we did. The (19)70s was make the farm happen so the (19)70 is fine for me. I am not I am not calling things off. I have not forgotten anything. And I am not going to I am not going to [inaudible]-
2:07
SM: When was there a watershed moment for it? Not only for you, but for a lot of members of the boomer generation. Was there a watershed moment when you knew this was a special time?
2:22
SG: Well, my students had to come and tell me when I was teaching at the San Francisco State, and they said, you were fun, and you were smart, you were funny, but you do not know what is happening. I said, oh! And so, they start telling me about it. You got to do a few things for us before we can continue the conversation. Okay, what do I have to do? They said, we will see the Beatles movie, go see the Grateful Dead.
2:48
SM: Oh wow.
2:52
SG: San Francisco State was trying to be kind of new. And they had what they call a mixed media event, which was three teachers reading three different poems and a couple of slides of vectors. I understood the concept but I did not do much. And when we went to see the Grateful Dead, we came in the door to the auditorium and there was a guy in the zebra suit, jumping on a trampoline underneath a strobe light. And you could not even tell what he was.
3:23
SM: Well, that that was a pretty watershed moment!
3:30
SG: And I just suddenly, well I realized that these are my people. And the thing is, I am thirteen years too old to be a boomer.
3:41
SM: Right?
3:42
SG: I am a beatnik. And like they say in the military, you can change from one branch to the other, time and grade, rank and like that. I was able to transfer from the Beatniks to the hippes like that.
3:55
SM: Well, Steven, you know, one thing I have noticed in my interview process is that so many people born in the ten years prior to the boomer period that they, they were kind of boomers, because they have this mentality of like the boomers.
4:11
SG: They kind of built them.
4:12
SM: And yeah, Richie Havens, when I interviewed him was born in 1940. Yeah, and Ritchie says, I am a boomer. I am a boomer. And it is- because it is an attitude. It is a way of thinking,
4:22
SG: I am born in (19)35.
4:26
SM: What you mentioned about your, I get a lot of questions here, but this these Monday night classes that we that you taught when you were at San Francisco State, it says in some of the literature you got up to 1500 students at one time in your class. What were what were some of these experiences over those two years when you taught these classes?
4:50
SG: Well, sometimes we would be in a scholarly way and everybody would be, like one guy came in on the Monday night class one night waving his book. Hey, look at this book, this 'ole monk in the thirteenth century had the same trip, I had last Saturday night!
5:02
SM: [laughs] Oh my gosh.
5:07
SG: We were quite scholarly we were reading a lot, reading all the religions and more we did that. We did not come to San Francisco to convert to religions. We were ransacking religions looking for goodies.
5:20
SM: So subject matter? These students were getting credit for this course correct?
5:25
SG: When it started off, but I had to leave the campus at a time. They got to where they did not peel the political posters off the glass anymore and the revolution taken over San Francisco State.
5:38
SM: Yeah, I know. Yeah. Because you were the president there. I guess he was one of your teachers at one time? Ichiye Hayakawa?
5:46
SG: Hayakawa? I was Hayakawa's student assistant. Hayakawa was one of the media-wise foremost semanticists, general semanticist in the country at that time, although there were about four or five guys smarter than him that did not have the good fortune for his PhD thesis to become a book cult collection.
6:08
SM: Well, he was president during that time when all the student rebellion was happening at the school.
6:13
SG: At the time had split to Ethiopia to get away. They had offered the presidency to all of the faculty and they all turned it down, they say, we are not going to scab and they offered it to Hayakawa and even though he was not full time and even though he did not teach but two courses they made him president anyway.
6:33
SM: What year was that?
6:35
SG: Well golly that would have to be (19)65 or (19)66 something in around there.
6:39
SM: Wow.
6:42
SG: And he came out he came outside wearing a tam o'shanter hat, a very colorful hat thinking he was going to come on like he was a hippie and the hippies snubbed him.
6:54
SM: Oh, wow.
6:57
SG: You know, this is very short time, when in the Free Speech Movement, Mario Savio and those guys pulled up they thought that Hayakawa would like them and he did not. I answered the phone. I told him who it was and he did not like them at all. I am going I am sorry. He does not like you. I do. But he does not.
7:16
SM: My gosh. Yeah, that was (19)64 or (19)65 and that was about the time he became president then.
7:21
SG: Yeah, because he took he took the job when nobody else would do it.
7:25
SM: Wow. Was there any connection with what was going on, on the San Francisco State campus? And what was going on over there at Berkeley?
7:32
SG: Well, we were a little bit different in the sense that they were more the political guys and we was more of the acid guys. But there was not a hard line. It was some of all the same. And I did a class at night that it happened to be in Hayakawa's office with a free speech movement. I was teaching a class that night, one of my an- Francisco State College classes, called a Monday Night Class and so I said, well, we were in solidarity with the guys in Berkeley, according to my understanding that I can say fuck anytime I want, as long as I have the right layers of parentheses and quotation marks around it. And I took a new piece of chalk was three inches long, and used it on its side, take the line about four inches wide. And I wrote FUCK and letters three feet on the blackboard in the front of the room and I went back to the old German origins, you know, and like that, and we thought about it for a while. And I must have said it a couple of hundred times during my class. They were right with me. We were exhibiting solidarity with Berkeley.
8:43
SM: Wow. Those are those were unbelievable times back then. You know, I have interviewed several people [inaudible] in the student protest movement. San Francisco State there was a famous picture of him with African American students look like they were really it was a front of a book cover. I do not know if you remember when the African American students really went after him?
9:08
SG: I do not remember.
9:08
SM: Yeah. So, there was a lot of rebellion. When you think of those years, not only as a student but as a teacher. What was it like being a student what was college life like in the (19)50s or the early (19)60s before this period started?
9:26
SG: Well, that was what I was most likely being more like a beatnik when I was still in school taking class. And I made good grades when I wanted to pay attention. I did not always do it but I did not always pay attention but I graduated cum laude which I used to think was a big deal. And the lady I am married to now was also cum laude. And what I found out was there was a thing that happened to be where I got tired of the papers they were giving. They were so stilted. It was like they were being written for their maiden aunt. I am going to have a heart attack, if they said anything heavy. Something like that. And I complained to them. This is crap you are writing and you are being so careful, you are not saying anything of who you really are and what is really happening. I want to make that assignment for you where I am not going to grade spelling or grammar or anything like that I am more grade [inaudible] and so they sent in a paper like that. And it was a heavy trip man, they like one girl wrote a paper about how her brothers trying to make or give away your half black baby.
10:38
SM: Huh?
10:39
SG: So, the real hard stuff started coming out. And I was knocked out by the, by the content and what I went through a change right there on account of that paper, which was I realized that I loved the students deeply. And I considered the institution to be in the way and not helping out the relationship.
11:02
SM: You said that you were a beatnik. The obviously the beats were very important influence in the (19)50s because they were against the status quo, you know, the Kerouacs, the Burroughs and Ginsburgs.
11:15
SG: The way I got introduced to the beatniks - a friend of mine came to me and says they are having a [inaudible] in the East Coast, where they were having coffee houses, they are drinking coffee, and it goes back in time or Shakespeare when coffee was the dope and folks were uptight about when you talked to much when you did it. There was one down in Laguna Beach, I was in San Bernadino, he says there is one down at Laguna Beach. He goes, do you want it? And we stole the cafe Franken sign, and the plaster cast of the Frankenstein tombstone with a centerpiece and the waitress was in love with the coffee cook and she was spilling over everybody and it was just stoned and sweet and I thought, I think these are my people.
12:12
SM: Did you did you have experiences meeting Ferlinghetti and Gary Snyder and the people out there?
12:18
SG: I met Gary Snyder and was my first Monday night class came out it filled up the bookstore, Ferlinghetti's bookstore, the entire window was my book, and the entire glass of the window was the picture of my paper.
12:36
SM: Wow.
12:37
SG: Because everybody - I had been doing the class for several years by then everybody knew was going to come out. No advertising. It got that way by word of mouth. And it just filled up a printing and we have got another printing and sold out a printing and we had another printing like that. And talking to Ferlinghetti about being in his bookstore and I had been. Some of the guys I liked, what is the name of that English guy?
13:08
SM: Neal Cassady or?
13:10
SG: No, I met Neal over in Amsterdam one time more recently. And Neal [inaudible] I knew Big Brother and the Holding Company, when they were an acoustic jug band with no amplifier.
13:32
SM: Now when did they start? That band?
13:36
SG: Well, they what happened to them, as you may recollect, is they were kidnapped by Janis Joplin. [laughs] And that was what happened to them. And so, I knew the guys in the bands and you know, the guy from a Big Brother and the Holding Company came up to me and reminding me of who he was, I said "hey I tell people I know you."
14:05
SM: Wow. So, you when you are talking about the counterculture in the Bay Area, in the (19)60s and the (19)50s, late (19)50s (19)60s and (19)70s, you think primarily in terms of the music and the way people lived their lives? The lifestyle?
14:27
SG: Well, it was it was modern amplification of the music and rock and roll was happening pretty heavy in Europe and then the first rock and roll I ever heard about was referred to as Rock and Roll Riot Detection and by the time I got into San Francisco the Dead you know, Garcia still had black hair.
14:54
SM: Um hmm.
14:55
SG: And the oh, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Cipolina I think one of the crazy real lead guitarists of our time.
15:11
SM: Who was that?
15:12
SG: Cipolina.
15:13
SM: Oh.
15:14
SG: From um, it is tough to remember that name. I had been an English major and then my mother wanted me to be a lawyer and then I ended up being an English major. And I realized I was a creative writing major. And so, I came out as a creative writing major. The thing about a creative writing major is that you get to make up your thesis.
15:43
SM: Hmm.
15:45
SG: It is a group of short stories.
15:46
SM: Right.
15:46
SG: No research, you get to make up your thesis!
15:50
SM: Huh.
15:53
SG: I did that and then on the other side, I was doing general semantics and linguistic study at least the analytical side of the language and the structure of the language. Nothing wrong with the study of a little semantics.
16:09
SM: We you say that when you are around some of these people in two different experiences one in that classroom and another at that club and you say in both instances, I found that people I am most comfortable with. I belong here. Did you feel up to that point, even in your growing up years, with your parents, the years leading up to go into college, even including your military career that you really had not found yourself?
16:39
SG: Yeah, I would say that. I was just doing, you know, after I got in the military, I was supposed to go to school and GI bill, which I did. And I am one of the last people who got out before Reagan screwed the California School System. When I went to San Francisco State to $79 a semester.
17:01
SM: Oh my gosh.
17:02
SG: Not a unit. A semester.
17:04
SM: And what years were those?
17:06
SG: Well, I guess (19)60 - (19)61 something like that I would say. I got it. I took an AA in San Bernadino. And if I uh, well the thing about having that AA is if I had an L I could spell Alabama.
17:36
SM: Yeah you were in the military from (19)52 to (19)55? Right. Now, did you learn anything about war? You were in action over in Korea. You had something, you must have had some feelings coming back from a war?
17:54
SG: Yeah, well, I could not get with the student revolution guys who wanted to send thousands of people up against the administration building and that kind of stuff. I thought that we were supposed to be so media hip and so attractive and neat that we took over that way.
18:17
SM: What was? You were around in during the period many people say is the Summer of Love. Haight Ashbury, that was (19)67. We see all these pictures of Golden Gate Park. It was quiet. He just what was the year 1967 like in San Francisco?
18:38
SG: So, I think that was when we had the we had the first human be- in.
18:47
SM: Please speak up too, thanks.
18:50
SG: So that was just after Woodstock. And we set up in the polo field in Golden Golden Gate Park. And thousands and thousands and thousands of people came.
19:05
SM: Wow.
19:06
SG: I was up on the hill watching it. The meeting was so profound and so powerful, I had to stop and sit down once in a while always walking up to it. A woman there and a mounted policeman: she came up and says, my son is down there! I want to get my son! Help me get my son! Ma'am, all of those people are smoking pot. I cannot go down there.
19:37
SM: Wow.
19:38
SG: And that was also when something happened at later karma which was somebody broke the lines to the stage! The power lines. So, the Hells Angels went out and walked the wires and found them and had a Hells Angel standing on each place the wire was plugged together and protected the jam that way.
19:57
SM: Hmm.
19:57
SG: That is why Garcia had the idea evident for security at Altamont.
20:03
SM: All right, well, that was a disaster.
20:06
SG: Yeah, yeah. Awful.
20:08
SM: Were you at Altamont?
20:10
SG: No, I was with Grateful.
20:12
SM: Wow, because that was the-
20:15
SG: That was one of the low points.
20:17
SM: Some people say that was when everything kind of turned around. But what was it like? The young people, when you look at the boomer generation, you have not only seen them in the classroom, seen them in the communes, seen them in the clubs just experienced them in many different ways, what are their strengths and what are some of their weaknesses in your opinion? Based on the people you knew?
20:46
SG: Well, the strengths and their weaknesses are pretty much the same thing. That was how much they trusted, and how much they were open and how much they were willing to experiment how much they were willing to take along. That stuff is great growth drives, and also can be dangerous. And I loved them and I love hippies still. And in fact, I claim it still. I claim mass affiliation really and say, oh yeah, I am a hippie. And I love the hippies very much and I loved going to rock and roll and I have never had any music that was my own until honor to rock and roll. When I grew up the big hassle was Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby. And I thought Sinatra was a better singer but he was such a dick always slapping valet parking people and stuff like that. And Crosby was a nice family man, and not really very interesting or anything and that was what music was when I was a kid. And when suddenly it was rock and roll, man, oh my goodness! People were doing things with guitars that before Rock and Roll would have been considered a catastrophic equipment breakdown. [laughs] You know, when complete and total feedback takes over a whole amp.
22:17
SM: When, when you when you heard young people say, then and many even who are older today say that we were the most unique generation in American history because we were going to end the war, bring peace to the world, end racism, sexism, homophobia, you know, all those other things would not come to fruition all those things and a lot of progress. But what do you what do you say when you hear that this generation feels at times that they were the most unique in our history?
22:53
SG: Well, I think that they are never, there was never anything like that before you because you have never had the social amplifiers that we had. Loud, and using heavy dope. You know, we were we were amplified and, and it was not that we were hiding what we were doing, we were proud of it, we would be dressed different from other folks so that those with like minds, would recognize us. And I still wear my hair long, although it is a little ponytail like a rat tail and smooth on top. I am not going to cut it. They were very afraid. And when I left on the caravan, I left with twenty-five school buses, by the time I got to the farm I had fifty school busses and four hundred and some people who were committed to give it a go. To try to make something happen. And that was one of the things that used to happen is guys would come up to me it was very successful summer dealing. You ever decide you got to go to the land somewhere, let me know, I will help you buy it. Guys like that would come up to me. And I had no personal wealth. I was on the salary, the salary for a teacher. A first-year teacher is not much. And I love those people. And they came here with me. And we have changed since we came here in a bunch of ways because we were wild, wild and crazy both ways as you know. Some folks could not stand us or understand us but then - oh, I would have been with you guys already if I knew that was who you were.
24:56
SM: Here what happened between when the Summer of Love ended (19)67 because we hear stories about (19)68 was a pretty rough year in San Francisco because the many drugs many more drug people came into the Haight Ashbury area and people left like a, like bees.
25:17
SG: What happened when we were on a caravan, which was 1970, we were gone for seven months on the road. And we got back to San Francisco. It has been taken over by crack and cocaine and heroin and alcohol. We did not use to drink as a culture. Hippies did not used to drink the first time Janis Joplin showed up and put a bottle of Southern Comfort down on top of the piano, people were scandalized.
25:46
SM: Oh, wow.
25:47
SG: Yeah. That we were very innocent in our ways. And when we came back off the caravan, we saw that the scene had gone decadent. And we did not know where we were going to get land. But we thought we, we got a good thing going here. We had a very successful tour. Obviously, I was handed over at the state lines from the cop of one state to the next state, hey, they are okay, do not worry about them do not worry about them. When one thing is kind of fun was when we left the first day we left we got busted at the Oregon/California border and the cops had busted us but they had FBI and state police and troopers and a sheriff and whatnot. And they did not know what to do about us at all. But they came out and took my bus and the guy said, I have orders to arrest of the registered owner this bus, well, it was not my bus. This other guy who said What? Gee! What did I do? So, the guy takes out the papers and says I have orders to arrest Stephen Gaskin. But he arrested me and they took me in. I have to admit. The cops did look a little odd. They were counting the change in this great big [inaudible] full of change and small bills that they had bailed me out with. Hey hold on for a second. I got something on the other line I got to take.
27:18
SM: Okay. You were telling the story about the cop and the busses.
27:32
SG: So, they went into court and they want to know who we were. We are the people who are for peace and who are peaceful about being for peace. This is right in the middle of blowing up the Sterling building-
27:52
SM: In Wisconsin, and then the Weatherman.
27:53
SG: And so, we talked to the judge, and the judge says okay. I will tell you what I am going to do, I am going to let you go into speaking tour. At the end of your tour, you got to come back to this courtroom. And I will know where you were. So, I said, okay, and we took off like that. And we went to a lot of changes. We got back off the road and we came back in there. We went into that that office. And he must have got a clipping service or something because all of the walls of the office were covered with pieces of paper for every parcel and point [inaudible]. They had tracked us all the way.
28:34
SM: Unbelievable.
28:35
SG: And the judge, we went back into the courtroom and the judge said, he said, your presence in the courtroom is an embarrassment and you were free to go.
28:51
SM: Hmm.
28:54
SG: When I wrote the Caravan book, the first chapter is half that story in the last chapter is the other half of that story.
29:05
SM: Oh, wow. I got to get that book. Is that book still in print?
29:08
SG: Yeah.
29:09
SM: Oh, I got to order that book. I have a list of all your books here and they are all fascinating.
29:18
SG: I have got it myself and then you hit me up on my website.
29:22
SM: Yeah, because you got forty Miles of a Bad Road.
29:25
SG: That is my master's thesis.
29:28
SM: Yeah. And then you have Monday Night Class, which is one I love.
29:32
SG: Yeah.
29:33
SM: Then you got The Caravan from (19)72 and the one about Haight Ashbury Flashbacks. And An Outlaw in my Heart, a Political-
29:43
SG: Oh, By Heart was the one I put together when I was running against the Ralph Nader for the Green nomination.
29:50
SM: Wow.
29:52
SG: Best thing about that was I got to be friends with Ralph.
29:55
SM: Yeah, I saw Ralph last year when he was talking about his first now when he went around the country. Tell me a little bit about The Caravan. Obviously, you- where did you meet the people that went on the original in the original buses, or cars?
30:13
SG: They were the Monday night class.
30:15
SM: They were all students.
30:17
SG: They were all Monday night classes.
30:20
SM: Then they were off in the Bay Area, most of them?
30:24
SG: Hold on again a minute.
30:38
SM: So, they were mostly, they were students from your Monday night class?
30:41
SG: Yeah. And they were just, we had people there who had PhDs, people that are who were dropped out freshmen
30:48
SM: Oh my gosh!
30:49
SG: They came to the farm and when we get the farm up to a pretty big population and stuff at one time, the farm had more college degrees than the Tennessee State legislature did.
31:00
SM: Oh my gosh, the original when you finally got there. What was your number at the very beginning?
31:11
SG: When we went back, actually, just to land some people dropped off at that point. We came in with about 280 people.
31:19
SM: Wow.
31:20
SG: And we were we were in Nashville, trying to look for land. And we thought, well, as big as we are, we should have a band. A big creature like this needs a voice we should have a band. Philip says, oh, I got to go trade this guitar in. I cannot do rock and roll with a twelve string, I got to get a real rock and roll guitar. He went to get a rock and roll guitar and the lady at the music store says, nobody has lived on my mother's old home place down in Lewis county for about thirty-five years. You guys can go down there and park. They gave us place to land. I found out that they were kind of wealthy liberals.
32:03
SM: Uh huh.
32:04
SG: And the while we were there looking for a tractor, somebody went out came back to the port subtractor with a wide front wheels and low back wheels. And one guy who had ridden with the Hells Angels said, that was not a tractor. And he went out for a tractor and he found this big old John Deere with wheels about, about seven-foot-high and the guy who sold him the tractor said, you guys should buy my place, its 1000 acres and the road does not go through. We went to the bank down in [inaudible] and asked for a loan. And we got to the bank and they said, well it is not just because you are an out of town hippie, it is also because no one has ever asked for a loan as big as that from this bank before. We went back and told Carlos that. And he said, I trust you guys, I will carry it. And that was that was a very important thing because we did not know it but the FBI had every county clerk in the state primed up to let them know have you tried to buy land in their county because they were going to get us.
33:13
SM: [laughs] Oh jeez!
33:14
SG: And because the guy carried the note himself, we were a stranger [inaudible] before they ever heard about us.
33:20
SM: Oh my gosh.
33:26
SG: Some of what I did was I general. You had to have a to have a general because we were facing an organized thing.
33:40
SM: So, they have been being alerted people all over the area that do not lend money to your group.
33:47
SG: Who they had alerted were the county clerks if we came to do a title search or anything.
33:57
SM: They just did not want your type, around did they?
34:00
SG: Well now, we have all become very effusive. They love us.
34:04
SM: Now, what was the, the actual land that you bought finally?
34:09
SG: Well, first, we bought Carlos's 1000 acres. And it is where the highlands where the Nashville basin is, the rim and this land is off of that rim coming down to the lower land it has got a few pretty flat fields not a lot of hills and we are a deciduous oak forest. And anyway, it turned out that the only interest of the place was through about seven or eight other people's driveways. And we bought the land next door, which had an opening on the blacktop. We did that that that the first piece of land was $70 per acre $70,000 for 70 acres. The next piece of land was $100 an acre. 700 acres, same price but we only got 700 but then we had 1700 acres. And then later on, we have had things happen like Japanese land buying companies come in and buy land on our border and clear cut it and stuff like that. By this time, we were big enough that we just chartered a nonprofit corporation and we started buying everything still had trees on it. But now we are up to having six and a quarter square mile, or 6000 acres. I was talking to a guy in Europe about an acre and a hectare. And we finally decided that we had, we had 1000 hectares. And this guy who happened to be the director of the [inaudible] said, you should secede from the union.
35:59
SM: [laughs] Wow. Of the originals that came back in 1970 are there very many still there?
36:13
SG: Not a lot. But, but we were like with other places you were back to be close to their folks or whatnot, you know, we were a very large and well communicated entity and we talked to each other all over the place. Got people. At one time we had twenty-five other farms.
36:32
SM: Wow.
36:33
SG: We had one in Ireland and we had one in India. Like that.
36:39
SM: Wow. How many people live there now?
36:45
SG: I do not think we are up to 300 right now but it was 1500 people and it was also five hippies hitchhiking on every freeway ramp.
36:56
SM: For a while. Cannot hitchhike anymore, though, can you?
37:01
SG: Not much!
37:04
SM: Now, obviously, people think that hippies were very popular in the (19)60s and (19)70s but that there are not very many left. Hippies. You do not hear about them much anymore, except for places like The Farm and that have lived the life. But your thoughts on that? How many? Are there still hippies out there that are young?
37:32
SG: Well, they do not call themselves hippies but they but they are heavy into communication, and rock and roll and they are on the internet and they are a generation that talks to itself more freely than anybody ever has. And they do not call themselves hippies anymore but you hear it used every now and then. And whenever anybody asks me I always say a hippie of course.
38:03
SM: Do you have you have people that actually read about the farm and say, can I come and live there?
38:08
SG: Oh, yeah. We have, when we were big, we had 256-man hours a week in gate.
38:17
SM: Oh my gosh.
38:19
SG: We had we had 150,000 visitors in our first 10 years.
38:26
SM: And what was the process? See it see a person? Well say in 1972 you had been there two years, what was the process for someone to become a part of The Farm?
38:38
SG: We used to call it soaking. We would make you come and live here for a while and work. And we would advise that do not get involved romantically when you are first coming here. But as you get where you cannot tell the difference between falling in love with somebody and falling in love with the farm. And, and after you soak for a while for sure you want to do it, then we check you out and see if we want you. But the beginning you could be a full partner on a handshake and a smile.
39:09
SM: And you said that they were PhDs, master's degrees, bachelor's degrees, dropouts.
39:17
SG: Our giant book was backed up by a PhD in organic chemistry.
39:25
SM: Why do you think I know you your experience but why do you think so many people that were in that class or heard about that class said I am tired of this world. I want to get away from it. I want to go back to nature.
39:40
SG: Well, I ended up right on the spot where stuff was happening. I would usually you go check out a scene you go to hear about the scene and its already going decadent. But this one happened right around me. I saw it when it first grew and I love it and hippies love me, you know, because I never sold out. I am 75 years old now.
40:14
SM: Yeah, I was reading in the some of the things in the web, the wall street journal called The Farm the General Motors of American communes.
40:23
SG: [laughs]
40:25
SM: What did they mean by that?
40:28
SG: Well, that we had like a motor pool, and we had a school up through high school. And we had medical facilities. Our midwives are world famous, that is what my wife's doing right now she is off talking about midwifery in Europe. And she, lectures to doctors, doctors come to her lectures. And we were good at what we did. And nobody, nobody around our neighborhood, thinks hippies are dumb. In fact, this is just like, how stuff would happen. We were anti-nukers, of course. And at some point, we said, we were anti-nukers, we ought to be able to tell us something is hot. We ought to have a Geiger counter. So, we got a Geiger counter. And that year's Geiger counter was a pig, it weighed maybe 15 pounds had a big signal letter and battery in it is just a pig, it was before digital measurization, pretty much although our guys are into them somewhat. But we had we had that thing and it did not have a dial on it, it just had a light and it (noises) and people would write down a number or anything and at the same time, one of our people who is on the farm to have a baby the little farm issue, she was having twins. So, the midwives got the Doppler effect, fetal heart monitor, for sensitivity to separate the twin’s heartbeat and the guy on the crew who was working on the cluster, checked out that and he went back and he says, look, that little heart monitor our posture has a delay in averaging circuit eventually if we hook that delaying and averaging circuit up to the Geiger we could time it. It would have a dial and we would have a needle. So, we figured that out and put it together. And our Geiger counter was about the size of a pack 100-millimeter cigarette. And when 911 hit we had to hire more people to that company. And right now, in Lewis County our Geiger counter company is the only one of our companies that is big enough and strong enough to have health care for its employees.
43:06
SM: It is a fantastic story.
43:09
SG: And right now, the Geiger counter company is listed as the only high-tech business in Lewis County. That is one thing about the neighbors not thinking that hippies are dumb.
43:21
SM: Well, you got some pretty good people there and you are at the farm. Boy, some really good and, you know, reading your background, I was very impressed with your background and your wife's background, but to see the information you are given me about some of your fellow people, they are in The Farm over the years, it is pretty impressive, but I am going to change my tape. Okay. I am back. One of the interesting things about communes is that when the in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, a lot of people say the (19)60s ended in around 1973. So, you got to glue those first few years as part of the (19)60s in the (19)70s. But that was when so many people went back to communes and or they-
44:12
SG: Fake unity.
44:14
SM: Yeah. Or they went into a more spiritual feeling. So, they were not going to church as much. And what I have read here, and I like your comments on the critics of communes as a whole, maybe not The Farm, but communes overall, is that this it is about people who dropped out. People who went back to nature, lived off the land became much more spiritual, and they did not have to go to church or synagogues, but they became more inner, inner spiritual. I would like you to your comments on the critics of the communes and define what a commune is.
44:58
SG: First place like I keep saying. We are a commune and total commune is a- the political term and so we say we are an intentional community living together on purpose, because they want to. And the idea is that people have been trying to do that kind of stuff in this country for a long time, the Shakers and those kinds of people like that. And we are not like we used to be in the sense of like, totally collecting did not have to have any money in your pocket and these glasses, you would have a bank lady and like that. And now, we went through changes in 1983 like the world did and people have their own bank accounts and stuff now. And we have come to find out that in Israel, that is a metamorphosis that happens that it is well documented there and it when a kibbutz turns into a musha'a and it this really collective bit like a collective child raising very like. And the musha'a is, people got their own checkbook and their own job and their own money, but they are still collecting. So, we kind of like went like that thing in Israel, using the technicality of that language, I think we are more of a musha'a now but we like to do big projects together and so we still do big projects. Our Plenty organization that we put together. The first thing we did was help the people whose houses had been destroyed by tornados and stuff then we ended up doing a rather large, that diet health program in Guatemala, where we got into a deal with Faith International and pipelined millions of [inaudible] money into Guatemala and organized. We like big projects, but then we were very clear, that Plenty thing belongs to everybody on The Farm. We did not want to have an acronym, we call it Plenty, because there is actually enough if it was fairly strict. So, we explained what Plenty means and that is pretty revolutionary.
47:31
SM: So why, why did The Farm succeed when most of the other communes did not? There may be three or four major communes in the country, and the rest of them are gone?
47:44
SG: Well, I do not know exactly. The first 13 years, I was really deeply involved in everything. And I have not been since about (19)83. I have lived here, I have worked from here but I do not run it. And it was like it went from running Monday Night Class to running The Caravan and now, it would be superfluous for me to try to run things. But you have gone off and been doing things for years and it is really nice to have competent friends. In fact, somebody came to The Farm and do the story and they said they seem to have a religion of competence.
48:38
SM: For example, within The Farm itself, do you each have your own, like homes? And then you have you eat your meals separately? Or do you eat out common area?
48:49
SG: No, we had we, we have community dinners every now and then and also, we will have a community dinner for a cause like the school needs somebody or something who have a community dinner and charge for it. And we do a lot of music and one of the most successful things we have done is our musicians have passed down lots and lots to our kids.
49:17
SM: See, so if you go out on a lecture circuit or your wife for the band goes out and performs or somebody who has a skill goes out in the community and gets paid for it, does that money all come back to the to one big lump?
49:35
SG: No.
49:37
SM: So, you have your own private counts now?
49:40
SG: Oh, sure. Okay. The government you know wants you to have social security numbers and things.
49:49
SM: Right.
49:52
SG: We got to obey the law of the land everywhere we can and I probably am not going to do any more books based on pot. We have got a very good one out now and I do not need any more. I have one called Cannabis Spirituality.
50:16
SM: Well if pot was a very important part was very important part of The Farm.
50:21
SG: It is part of the whole hippie movement. Anything remarkable about our pot stuff is how well we kept away from crack, and cocaine and heroin. We were hash and acid and peyote.
50:42
SM: How do you deal with that it is illegal in most areas? Still.
50:48
SG: What I do in my own personal areas is be cool. And that is what other people have to do to.
50:53
SM: A one a couple other things here. I am looking at that. One of the when there was the period when and you know this and I know it is not true, but when Charles Manson happened, they thought that that was the kind of a cult and that he was part of a small community and then he had the Symbionese Liberation Army that ended up taking Patty Hearst, and they were supposedly some sort of a commune.
51:26
SG: A commune.
51:28
SM: Yeah, commune I guess. They were small groups, but did some bad things.
51:34
SG: Well the thing about Charlie Manson is, he is not by throwing him in the, the prison system of the United States had him when he was a young man and had him for 20 years before there was ever such a thing as the Haight and he was being educated in the penitentiary system and he is not ours. He was a hitchhiker on us, but we did not make him. And what was the other thing?
52:04
SM: The Symbionese Liberation Army.
52:06
SG: Well, Symbionese Liberation Army, they liked this fancy made up names but they were more of a publicity stunt. They were not going to take anything that was not a revolution or do anything like that would not make any permanent changes or anything. That is not who we are. We vote in our elections here. And when we were big, governors and senators came to our door to talk to us about it. I am a friend of Al Gore's.
52:44
SM: Oh, very good.
52:46
SG: He was by Congressman. And I think the supreme court stole that election completely
52:56
SM: I agree. Life would have been a little different. I think we still might have been attacked though at 911 but still.
53:08
SG: Well the thing about the thing about that stuff is we got to make peace with the Islamic world we cannot cut them off in little pieces and say this is a bad piece and we are going to blow it up and we act like that about a fifth of the world every time we blow up some a little village with a drone.
53:36
SM: A couple of other things regarding just the way the media in the culture of television and movies have portrayed communes. Is Easy Rider? Those scenes when Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper I think Jack Nicholson is in there too, but when they come into this one commune there is that scene and they are kind of talking to them, oh, this would be great because they were referring to all the top potential sex partners they could have within the within the commune that that was very well portrayed in that movie. And then another thing about in (19)98.
54:21
SG: They are rich movie actors.
54:25
SM: So that was really just Hollywood doing a Hollywood thing?
54:29
SG: Complete Hollywood bullshit.
54:31
SM: Yeah, because there was a you may have it. I have a major collection of magazines. There was a Life magazine on the cover with the commune. Do you remember it in the late (19)60s, where it showed a family and a commune and at the top of it says communes and it is very good article that talks about, you know, they, they were not having they had a white they did not have six wives? But there is, there is still that feeling out there that maybe men and women are having more partners than they should.
55:03
SG: They were in the (19)60s but that has consequences, children and stuff. And people want to have the best deal they can for their children and they did not want it to be a haphazard mess because they had to sort it out for the kids.
55:19
SM: Right?
55:22
SG: I do not mind challenging the mores of society I have never been afraid to but I am also not afraid to agree with them when they are useful and necessary for the safety and sanity of everybody else.
55:37
SM: How do you deal with that? I have asked this question, everybody. It is a general question. We have the in 1994, or Newt Gingrich came to power. He kind of he and he still does make commentary about the (19)60s and (19)70s that basically the problems we have in our society today are the problems of the breakdown of the American family, the drug culture, the you know, only one parent at home, lack of respect for authority and basically, culture going astray. And of course, George Will, when he gets chances he'll make commentaries. And Mike Huckabee even does it on his television show. And I remember when John McCain was running for president, he made commentary about Mrs. Clinton, that she was kind of like a hippie. Just general comments degrading the period and the time. How do you respond to those kinds of people when they make general statements?
56:41
SG: Well, there is a pretty good school of thought that being a hippie is an ethnicity.
56:50
SM: Mm hmm.
56:51
SG: And that people do it like they, they get racist about it. And that is the thing. I could cut my hair and get a necktie and if I kept my mouth shut, nobody would ever know.
57:05
SM: Right.
57:06
SG: But I will not and everybody knows I will not and you know, proud of my hippie forebearers and what we have done about it is we are not treated that way. We are not treated that way locally. The neighbors come here. We used to we had to ask the neighbors how to sharpen a chainsaw when we got here. And we had people come to be our electricians, our, our tech company is very strong and we are friends with our neighbors, we had a series of debates with the preachers. We had six or seven Church of Christ preachers come every Wednesday for weeks and then they had one up in Nashville in a big hall with about five or six preachers on stage and me. And the one old guy who said that he was the cult expert in Tennessee said that there are 309 nine cults in Tennessee but that The Farm was not one of them. And then had this you know, discussion in front of all these people and it got to the point where the preachers finally said, I cannot make them out to be Christians no matter how hard I try. But I really wish mine lived as well as they do.
58:38
SM: If someone was to ask you, why was The Farm started and then please define the purpose of The Farm. What would your answer be?
58:53
SG: Well, there was a giant worldwide revolution going on and much of it was being blown off on fireworks and wasted and we wanted to fix that very intelligent sweet good directed energy and make it last and give it a history. I have always said that one of the things that we are doing is to redeem the good name of the hippies.
59:18
SM: You obviously have lived a life of activism to not only obviously, when you when The Farm has experiences like I know you have helped with the improvements for the poor. There have been various causes as you were reading in some of your literature about saving the trees, even saving the whales, helping people down in Guatemala. I mean, where there is a tragedy around the country, a group of you will leave the area, your home, to help. That is activism. Could you define what an activist means to you, and any other activist experiences you have had in your life?
1:00:07
SG: Well, I really was not an activist before I was a hippie but me and my wife, we were both activists, and so is everybody else on the farm. If you see something wrong, you should fix it. And I believe that is in the Good Book too it says, what though your eyes need to do your hands should both do it and that is why Plenty started off, we helped a guy that had bad luck with tornadoes then we got word that Honduras at that time, it had a bad crop year, and they were starving. And so, we went to the Mennonite Central Committee and we said, if you guys would give us the money to buy the beans for them and get them shipped down there. And then we needed more muscle down there and we got hooked up with Canada and we were moving government level money. And it is because we are honest, and we have vision, same with the hippies. And so, it is our way, in the first place. Second place is really necessary to do it and we have been we have had people down in Haiti for a long time. I have a press card in Haiti myself. And we have places down in Belize, Honduras they used to call it. That is an interesting kind of Indians. There is Guatemalan Indians, Mayan's speaking Spanish, Belize Indians/Mayans speak English and another old tribe called [inaudible] who are escaped black slaves who are culturally a Mayan. [laughs] We have people just like that come through here now and then. In front of our bus [inaudible] lovely [inaudible] and it said "out to save the world."
1:02:36
SM: That is nice.
1:02:37
SG: Might as well be framed.
1:02:41
SM: If you are in a, I always do these little scenarios if you were in a college classroom today and you were a guest speaker just for that particular day, maybe you were introduced by the professor, the teacher could even be a large High School and a young person stood up and said, geez, you know, that must have been scary leaving San Francisco and going in those cars and vans, not knowing where you were going to end up. What gave you the courage to do it?
1:03:21
SG: That is like the people who say, where did you park 50 busses? Where did you park the caravan? I said red zones, loading zones- [laughs]
1:03:32
SM: Well, yeah, really what I am getting at here is what is the life lesson that others can learn from when they look at the caravan and the eventual development of The Farm but most importantly, it is like a young person leaving home for the first time it is that risk-taking. What does the caravan mean for life?
1:03:55
SG: For several hundred of us and we were well head-smart and pretty big. You know nobody is going to jump on us. Nobody is going to go up and attack a thousand hippies fine. And we would be good. And people got to like us and we made friends with people right along the road. We had a baby, at Northwestern, the first one my wife saw delivered before she was a midwife. And we had another baby in Ripley, New York and we were parked in front of a church and the cops asked what we were doing and she said we are a caravan but we were having a baby and now we need to stop. Oh. Okay, follow us and we will show you where to park and they parked us downtown on parking meters. [laughs]
1:04:44
SM: Wow.
1:04:45
SG: And we had the baby and when the baby was born, the church rang a bell.
1:04:52
SM: Was that the first baby from The Farm?
1:04:55
SG: The one at Northwestern was the first one.
1:04:58
SM: Okay.
1:05:01
SG: There was another one in Rhode Island and a doctor came to see us. His name was Louie LeFer, Louie the Father and he came in and showed them how to do heart message on a baby to help them get started and showed him a bunch of good little tricks and stuff, which they used in the next two birthing. And what I see is that doctors love our midwives. They just love them. And treat them good and take care of them.
1:05:36
SM: I would love to interview your wife when she gets some time. You know, maybe during the summertime, if that might be possible.
1:05:45
SG: Maybe so she does it quite a lot. We both do a lot of media.
1:05:53
SM: Well I know I sent you and I sent you the master email. I can send one to her or you can just share hers, whichever is okay. I noticed that you say your politics is beatnik?
1:06:06
SG: Yeah.
1:06:07
SM: And, that your religion is hippie.
1:06:11
SG: Right.
1:06:12
SM: So just define that a little bit better.
1:06:19
SG: Well, beatniks came out of an artistic thing. It was artists. In fact, before beatniks were bohemian, and it went like that all the way back to a couple of guys sitting with Socrates. And uh, I do not know I am not sure if I understand that question very well.
1:06:57
SM: Well, it basically I was reading that when someone asked you what your religion was you said hippie, and you did not say Methodist or Catholic or, and then your politics instead of saying Democrat or Republican you said beatnik.
1:07:13
SG: Right, right. Well, I we brought some of the first Jews anybody had seen down into Tennessee. And this one guy, someone was questioning him about his religion and being Jewish you know and he said hey, man, I like the red parts.
1:07:39
SM: [laughs] You mean something very important, because when you are talking about the (19)50s, and you think about the Red Scare that was everywhere, McCarthyism in the early (19)50s, even, even the late (19)40s and then to the-
1:07:52
SG: I was in the Marine Corps from (19)52-(19)55.
1:07:54
SM: Right. And then when you talk to you, you made some references I do not know what was jokingly or serious about the fact that when you say commune people think communism. Was there a fear? Was there a fear that was why people did not speak up that much in the (19)50s who may have had attitudes like the beats?
1:08:15
SG: Well there were people in the (19)50s like that but they were more in the arts. They were not you know, I loved Lena Horne when I was a little boy. She was an activist about it you know. She did not have to act like she was black. Nobody would have known if she decided not let them know. But she would do that. She stuck with it. I felt respect for that.
1:08:56
SM: What were the when you look at the counterculture. Counterculture is really defined as being challenging to the status quo in so many different ways. It is not- it is what people oftentimes look upon is not the normal it is then it is not the abnormal, it is just not normal. Theodore Roszak wrote the book The Making of a Counterculture where he talked about the different consciousness. How do you define counterculture?
1:09:29
SG: Well, in the first place, its spontaneous. It is not made by somebody. When I was running for the Green nomination, I was at one thing and this guy had done and said the socialist thing pretty well. You know, and I got my turn to talk and I started off the first thing was what he said and like that, and that caught on so good that the Green people all over the United States were using that to say they agreed with the previous speaker, you know, what he said and like that was a useful thing, you know that he did not have to be in a relationship of the opposite. You know? And one of my favorite things is the only thing that anybody else needs to know about your religion is how groovy it makes you. No need to tell them anything else. Show them how groovy you are.
1:10:45
SM: You talked about the books you have written. But were there any special books that had an influence on you in the (19)50s and the (19)60s in the (19)70s, that were written by other people?
1:10:56
SG: Well, in (19)49 or it was (19)45, my family was living in an army cold weather base in Colorado [inaudible] and my father was a civilian housing manager, and I went to school there. I stole and burned quite a lot of things. And that base was at the end of the war. They were cutting the barracks up and taking them away and stuff and they were going to burn the library. My mother was scandalized by that we had an old (19)39 Cadillac four door and she went over the library and picked out the stuff she thought would be good and picked out a carload of it that we kept. And what she got me was Fools Bet by Mark Twain, Melville, Robert Lewis Stevenson and those guys. And that was what I read growing up. And then when I was an English major, and I am taking a degree in English, I find it is my old friend! My friends from when I was a kid, these guys are American writers. All right. And that is some of the real philosophy of our thing. And I go back through that kind of writers like Thoreau and people like that, and I do not go on a classical religious paradigm as my father never would church, my mother never went to church. My children, say, man it is so cool that your dad got us out of the church.
1:13:05
SM: Was there any movies that when you look at the movies that have been produced and, on the screen, are there when you talk about the boomer generation in the (19)60s and the (19)70s? Or is there is there anything that is realistic to you?
1:13:25
SG: In movies? I think the main thing about movies is that they are not realistic. That is what they are for so, I do not know what you mean by realistic.
1:13:38
SM: Were there any movies that cause a lot of Vietnam vets say that when they see these movies, that is not the way it was.
1:13:46
SG: Yeah well, I is not a Vietnam vet I am a Korean War vet. In fact, I am the kind of a vet that when I see generals on the screen with [inaudible]- [laughs]
1:14:16
SM: A couple other questions here. This is a very important question I have asked everyone. And that is this business about healing. Boomers, of course, were born between (19)46 and (19)64. And the 1960s, the certainly the assassinations of a president, a senator and a civil rights leader. The riots in the cities, the burnings of the cities, certainly the 1968 convention, there was a lot of turmoil. There is a lot of division, as you well know and you live through it just like I did. The question I am asking is this. Do you who feel that the boomer generation is still having problems with healing, due to the extreme divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and lesbian and straight. Divisions between those who supported authority and those who are against it, those who criticized the war and or supported it, as well as the troops? And what role has the wall in Washington DC done with helping to heal the nation beyond the veterans?
1:15:36
SG: The Wall?
1:15:36
SM: In other words, what I am asking is, do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing?
1:15:45
SG: I think that we are healing and we are healing other people, and that we are continuing bringing healing on down through history. It is the most loving, and healing and humanistic and best philosophy that I have seen. And I have read the other stuff you know but my wife and I, she is writing things now and one of the things that amuses her quite a lot is that guys who we consider to be heavy philosophers have ideas like that men have 32 teeth and women have 28 and to a midwife, that just an inexcusable level of stupidity. [laughs] Philosophers do not make philosophy they pick it out of the society and learn about it. Tim Leary said that he was a stand-up philosopher. Like a stand-up comic.
1:16:56
SM: Um Hmm.
1:16:58
SG: And I think my friend Paul Krasner who was a very good friend of mine who was like that too.
1:17:04
SM: Yes.
1:17:06
SG: And I think I am kind of like that. I am supposed, where I go, I am supposed to make them like me. When I went to penitentiary, I knew exactly what my job was. I was to show them a class act. And I did, and the result of that was that the news was coming to see James Earl Ray every week. And that was kind of a drag. And then I was there, they would see me for more fun and so got to where I was getting three televisions and two newspapers every week until they got so sick of that talking in Nashville that they sent me out to this place where I got put in the hole. And a counselor said I will tell you what, you can stay at my office until they find you. And there were always people helping me out like that. That was what I was about. And my folks went up to you know, get me out of the hole. And Mr. [inaudible] said let him rot, and they pushed me down and they had this guy Bass, Mr. Charles Bass. And Bass was a minister of corrections who had risen from a guard and when they saw him, he said, I am not worried about people who family come out for and he spun me out of the hole and put me in the trustee camp and gave me my mail that had been held back for several weeks and let The Farm bring me vegetarian food. I told him, I said I mentioned you in my book I was talking to him on the phone, I mentioned you in my book. He said when people came to my house, I show that to them.
1:19:03
SM: Wow. So, you believe then really that a generation like this does not have a problem with healing?
1:19:10
SG: I think we are healers.
1:19:11
SM: Okay.
1:19:12
SG: We are doing everything from a better diet. You know, we are talking about the hippie diet. Hippies are going to live a long time and not have, you know, not have high blood pressure diseases. I have been you know, watching my diet and eating vegetarian stuff for a long time and my last heart appointment the doctor says, I have the heart of a teenager and I should be congratulated. I had a prostate examination they say you get an A plus on this exam. [inaudible] I am a very healthy old dude.
1:19:46
SM: You have never had diabetes huh?
1:19:49
SG: No diabetes.
1:19:51
SM: Which is one of the most rampant disease in the country right now.
1:19:54
SG: Yeah. And it is the diet.
1:19:59
SM: When we asked Senator Muskie that question, I took a group of students and Senator Muskie basically, I he did not say anything about 1968 because he was at that convention. Basically, what he said is we have not healed since the Civil War and he was referring to the racism that was still in the country. So
1:20:18
SG: Yeah.
1:20:19
SM: That was what he was referring to because the Civil War in the south a lot of people have not healed according to him.
1:20:29
SG: Yeah, well, we live down here in the middle of all that kind of stuff.
1:20:37
SM: Did you have a generation gap with your kids?
1:20:44
SG: One of my kids decided that he would follow my military thing and became a martial artist that has a black belt in Jujitsu. The other is a computer guy and does that kind of stuff. My other son turned out to be the house holder yogi and I think I am also a house holding yogi.
1:21:10
SM: Because at that period when you were teaching that was when the generation gap between the boomers and their parents was really in its heyday.
1:21:22
SG: Well, my daughter's a boomer and she is quite proud of me.
1:21:30
SM: So, you obviously you were in the commune, but you did not have any like disagreements over politics or anything?
1:21:39
SG: [inaudible] We do not we do not use that word in that way here, we just do not do it.
1:21:50
SM: Why In your opinion, why did the Vietnam War end?
1:21:56
SG: Ran out of money?
1:22:01
SM: And uh-
1:22:01
SG: I think the people in the streets had a lot to do with it. I had a different experience. I came home Korea people said, where you been? You know? We already knew, in Korea we knew what was going to happen. One of the guys had written a little song. (Singing) Pardon me boy, is that an Indochina convoy? Uncle Sam has my fare it is just a trifle to spare. Come to Yokohama Harbor about a quarter to four. Sink a submarine and then you are looking for more. Dinner on the liner. Nothing could be finer than to have your ham and eggs in Indochina.
1:22:44
SM: Hmm.
1:22:45
SG: We knew that [inaudible] was next.
1:22:48
SM: You were a Korean War vet now Vietnam vets were not welcomed home were Korean War vets welcomed home?
1:22:55
SG: Nobody knew they came home. [laughs] And do not think, there were people who were supposed to be for peace who were dumb enough to be bad to soldiers. And I really hate that and regret that. But veterans, veterans, I am straight with veterans and they are straight with me. I am very grateful for my experience that allowed me to bridge that gap.
1:23:24
SM: Let me change I got this [inaudible] Alright, I am back. I guess I get a series of questions. I am going to ask them some of the personalities of the period. But the other thing I want to ask you was the button issue of trust the boomer generation is, as I see, it oftentimes is labeled as a generation that does not trust because so many lies were seen in their leaders, whether it be Watergate with Nixon and certainly the Gulf of Tonkin with President Johnson, you have the body counts that McNamara used to give on a weekly basis and we knew they were not truthful. So a lot of the boomers grew up with their leaders lying and they did not trust leaders and so obviously, this probably came up in some of your classes at San Francisco State where students just did not trust anybody in a position of responsibility or authority, whether it be university president, a corporate leader, or congressman or a senator and or even, you know, anyone your thoughts on the issue of trust, as you have seen him in your life, not only through your experiences in the (19)60s in San Francisco, but your life on The Farm?
1:28:54
SG: Well, the thing about Monday Night Class was, especially after it got bigger, was my role became much plainer and it was that I could not discriminate against questioners. And that if I did not know something I had to say, I do not know. And if I answered a question for somebody, they were the one who got to say was the question answered. I did not stand up in front of my class. I sat in a chair, talking to them. I did not use a microphone to talk to 1000 people. And it meant that it was like meditation with a conversation on top. And the way I treated people set the standard for how easy it would be for them to speak themselves so nobody was afraid to speak up in Monday Night Class. And I also had to be easy to call down. If I said something wrong or something I was supposed to roll right away for it, and do not argue about it. And none of that stuff bothered me, it was going to be obviously the right way to do it. But it developed a conversational style. And also, to talk to a bunch of people like that. There are things that happen, like sometimes you'll see the room catch a joke. And it is like watching the wind on a wheat field. Just really, really close to everybody's mind. And the day the students were shot at Kent State. It was a Monday. And I had Monday Night Class. And about 100 people showed up very noisy, about we got to get guns! They are trying to kill us you know, you cannot be all peaceful like this you got to get out there and do it. And so, I am having that argument with them. And somebody comes up and gives me, a little girl gives me a piece of candy and as I pop in my mouth, she looks so mischievous, I thought- oh! And sure enough, I been loaded a big chunk of acid.
1:31:11
SM: Oh, no.
1:31:12
SG: So, coming onto acid and having this argument about violence. And I finally got to a place where I said look here. All these nights I have been coming in here and saying love and peace. You guys have been saying yeah, yeah! Yeah, yeah. I repeat it and you say yeah, yeah. I say love and peace and the whole audience answered me: yeah, yeah. And that showed me that the violent guys were just a little thin fringe in the back. And they noticed it too. They were very well outnumbered by [inaudible] people.
1:31:47
SM: Well.
1:31:48
SG: So, we had that argument about it. And that was what we did. When heroin came, we talked about that. When crack came, we talked about that. We talked to all that kind of stuff. When Scientology came we talked about that.
1:32:06
SM: Hmm. Did you bring guests in? Or was it just you in the students?
1:32:13
SG: Well, no, I did not bring guests in.
1:32:19
SM: Yeah, Kent State. I just got back from the four days there. This is the 40th anniversary.
1:32:24
SG: Yeah.
1:32:25
And it was phew, it was an event that really shocked everyone. April 30th Nixon gave his speech and then on the fourth with the killings of May. So, was that room full that night when?
1:32:42
SG: Oh, yeah.
1:32:42
SM: How many were students were there that night?
1:32:44
SG: It was about [inaudible]
1:32:47
SM: Wow.
1:32:48
SG: The thing is I do not call people [inaudible] I do not call people [inaudible]
1:33:03
SM: Some said that they wanted to go and create violence, others did not. Did anybody talk about the police? What were the main issues on the student's minds?
1:33:13
SG: Well, the guys who had come to class for the purpose of disrupting and trying to turn it toward a violent thing were strong in what they were saying. The usual people who came to class felt that it was an attack on their consciousness and that they did not want to part of it.
1:33:32
SM: What happened at San Francisco State in the in the days after?
1:33:37
SG: Oh, we had we had we had one time where everybody was thrown off the campus by the police. There were hundreds of cops there. So, I was kind of assaulted. On the way out, I stopped in front of each cop, cops all lined up. I would go up and stop in front of each cop and looked him in the eyes until we had caught his eyes. And then I would stop at the next one and I did that to every cop on the line all the way up because I knew I was right and they were wrong.
1:34:06
SM: Yeah, that was a big issue back then is when do you bring in police from off campus and not just choose your own police and that had to be done by the administration was this where Hayakawa got in trouble?
1:34:21
SG: This goes back to the 1700s you know, town and gown. You know, that same thing. We were peaceful. Everybody knew we were peaceful. And there were people who were not but, that they were welcome to come to class and hear what we said.
1:34:41
SM: Did you ever talk about the Black Panther Party across the bay and what the Black Panther Party was doing?
1:34:50
SG: I did not know him but I would shake hands with him and say hi. And there was also one of them, this one guy point guy that was part of that bunch of guys who was an artist. And the best guy I saw in that bunch of guys, he was so good. And he used to, he knew how to do one of those old dances. Throws a little dime to a little black boy and goes dance for your trip. He knew how to do that. The problem with it was, he was really good at it. And he would do that and the other guys would say make it stop, make it stop augh! And he died because they asked him to start H. Rap Brown's car and it was bombed.
1:35:48
SM: Let us say that again? Uh.
1:35:51
SG: This is the guy Ralph Featherstone. Featherstone. And he was the guy who started H. Rap Brown's car but it had been bombed and they killed him.
1:36:02
SM: Somebody sent a bomb in Brown's car.
1:36:05
SG: Yeah.
1:36:06
SM: Unbelievable. And where was that car located?
1:36:09
SG: I do not know.
1:36:09
SM: Oh, Okay, right here in the Bay Area?
1:36:12
SG: I do not think so.
1:36:13
SM: Oh, okay.
1:36:14
SG: I met Ralph Featherstone when we went to San Francisco State college to do the Mississippi challenge for the Mississippi delegation because of the ride. So, I went, I got to meet a few guys, you know up at the, Mo Udall. Udall said, I agree with guys. And my name starts with a "U" and by the time it gets to me, I want to know whether it is going to make it or not. And if it looks like it is going to make it, I will go on with you.
1:36:46
SM: Right.
1:36:46
SG: If it looks like it is going to make it.
1:36:49
SM: Another issue that happened around the time you were at San Francisco State was People's Park over in Berkeley.
1:36:55
SG: Yeah, I got in a little trouble for that. I said that it was an unreasonable expectation, they could not take real estate away from somebody because they wanted to it was not going to wash and the establishment was not going to allow it to happen. And it was going to cause bad confrontations. And it got somebody killed!
1:37:14
SM: That is right, the guy on top of the building.
1:37:17
SG: And I did not like I did not like the general way. Bad tactic, bad strategy.
1:37:28
SM: Did the students ever talk about Governor Reagan? Because he was tough on students.
1:37:34
SG: Yep. Well, the thing about, about Ronald Reagan is that when I was a little boy in Santa Fe, about 12-13 years old, if I would go to the movies, walk about two and a half miles into Santa Fe to see my weekend movie, and if I came to the movie house, and it was a Ronald Reagan movie, I would turn around and go home without seeing the movie that weekend. I could not stand him. I still cannot stand him. If he is not doing a part he has no more expression in his face than a potato. He was not a smart man. What Reagan did! Reagan did not do shit except for he was an actor for some.
1:38:23
SM: I know I interviewed Ed Meese down in Washington, his attorney general.
1:38:27
SG: Yeah.
1:38:28
SM: And he had picked Ed Meese to be his top person when he was governor. He did not know him until that point. But Mr. Meese had been involved with the Free Speech Movement as the assistant district attorney of Alameda County. So, he had already been involved with the Free Speech Movement (19)64- (19)65 but under Reagan, he was in charge of coming down hard on students in (19)69 at People's Park.
1:38:55
SG: Yeah.
1:38:57
SM: So, before I get into some specific questions I am just got names before we end this. Are there any other, we have talked about, you talked about People's Park, you talked about Kent State, you talked about drugs. What were some of the other topics that you talked about with the students? What were what was on the boomer’s minds when they came into that class? Just general issues?
1:39:23
SG: Well, I did thumbnail sketches on all the world's major religions. And that was one of the things that we talked about it. I used to say take all the religions and put them on old fashioned IBM cards, and stack all the old religions up like that and some of the holes would go clear through the stack.
1:39:50
SM: Hmm.
1:39:51
SG: That was what we were interested in. What would have gone clear through the stack?
1:39:57
SM: Did you talk about any of the other movements like the Women's Movement or the Gay and Lesbian Movement or the Native American, American Indian Movement they were very big too.
1:40:08
SG: Yeah, I, when they did the Longest Walk from Oakland to Washington DC, plenty gave them an ambulance for the run. And I went on that run. And when I got the DC, I saw that the security guys- those guys who had red threads braided into their braids to identify that they were security was keeping the press away from the old guys.
1:40:36
SM: Hmm.
1:40:37
SG: I was friends with one of these Indian chiefs, Oren Lyons, he's one of the Mohawk traditional chiefs and I went to Oren, because I knew him and I said look Oren, the security guys are keeping the press away from the old people and the old people are prettiest thing you have got. They should not be doing that. They should be facilitating the press to get to the old people. So, they had a meeting with the [inaudible] that night, and he expressed my opinion to the meeting and they agreed. He came back out and it was like that. And he told me that I was the hippie elder.
1:41:14
SM: Hmm. When you look at you ever see had all these experiences of the musicians that were in the Bay Area, whether it be the Grateful Dead, Jefferson Airplane. My golly, I remember learning that Boz Skaggs was from there along with the Huey Lewis and the News and Tower of Power, the list goes on and on in the Bay Area. What musicians and artists that you felt were the most important they had the greatest influence on the boomer generation, in your view?
1:41:51
SG: Musicians and artists?
1:41:54
SM: Yeah, what musicians? When you were at San Francisco State did you ever talk about the musicians in your classes?
1:42:03
SG: Oh, I know. I had musicians in my class. And- [laughs]
1:42:10
SM: I mean, did you talk about what was happening in the music scene?
1:42:13
SG: We had quite a hot discussion one night about who was St. Stephen.
1:42:17
SM: Who was who?
1:42:18
SG: St. Stephen.
1:42:20
SM: Okay.
1:42:21
SG: [singing] Was a rose in and out of the garden. He goes country garden wind in the rain, wherever he goes, people are complaining.
1:42:31
SM: And that created discussion for a couple hours?
1:42:35
SG: Yeah! Some people thought it was, some people thought it was not. I had to kind of go easy because I had been over visiting Garcia concerned about Pig Pen he was getting to be a real bad alcoholic. I want to talk to Jerry about it and I did not know it but one of the, one of the guys that wrote the lyrics was in the next room with the door open while I was there talking to Jerry. And we had all this discussion. And that guy is the guy that wrote the lyrics for St. Stephen.
1:43:09
SM: Oh my god.
1:43:10
SG: Stuff out of my mouth from that visit while I was at Jerry's that I recognized.
1:43:14
SM: What was his name?
1:43:16
SG: I think it was Hunter.
1:43:17
SM: Oh, wow.
1:43:17
SG: I think that was the one. I had a couple of them.
1:43:24
SM: So, you knew Jerry Garcia. Who were some of the other personalities in the Bay Area that you got to know?
1:43:31
SG: Well like I said like I said, I knew Big Brother and the Holding Company before they had amplifiers and that I was a family you know, I did not play anything. I was just unabashedly a fan. And I you know; the Airplane came up with Grace. Wow! The Airplane's got a girl! And then Chester brought Janis up from Texas, then Big Brother had a girl. All that stuff is interesting stuff going on at the time and I suppose people there were some people that just put me out there, nirvana. I love rock and roll.
1:44:22
SM: Did you get to meet Janis?
1:44:25
SG: What say?
1:44:26
SM: Did you get to meet Janis Joplin?
1:44:28
SG: Oh, yeah. She did not like me very much.
1:44:31
SM: What was she like?
1:44:32
SG: Well, the hippes were scandalized when one by two turned up and set a bottle of Southern Comfort on top of the piano because we did not drink hard liquor. The hippies were all surprised by that. But you know, her stuff was kind of blues, that is hard on you to sing. And I had to respect to her heavy weightiness in that class. I liked it most it was raising divine.
1:45:12
SM: She died of an overdose of drugs I believe did not she?
1:45:15
SG: Yeah. And not the kind, nothing that I would take either.
1:45:19
SM: What was? What did she die from?
1:45:22
SG: It was not reefer.
1:45:26
SM: Was she drinking and taking medicine at the same time or?
1:45:30
SG: I think I think that she was like, I cannot talk about other people's dope.
1:45:35
SM: Okay. Yeah. And you knew Grace Slick too then? And how about Stevie Nicks? Did you know her?
1:45:43
SG: Who was the second when you said Grace Slick? Grace. Yeah, I did not know Grace, but I admired her greatly.
1:45:51
SM: And Stevie Nicks is the other one that camp out of the came in the area.
1:45:55
SG: Stevie Nicks?
1:45:55
SM: Yup.
1:45:57
SG: No, that is after my time.
1:45:58
SM: Yeah okay. Any other any of the other political people that you get to meet in may be activists like Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman, Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis that group?
1:46:13
SG: I went up to Abbie Hoffman's place up on the St. Lawrence Seaway and let my boy Sam drive his boat. I was at Abbie's last gig and it was funny bus but Leary and Abbie and what was his name? One of the Black Panthers.
1:46:30
SM: Bobby Seale.
1:46:32
SG: Bobby Seale and when the guy introduced us, when he introduced Bobby Seale out in the suburbs it would have been a scary thing but now it is just Bobby Seale, but now it is just Bobby Seale's new outdoor cookbook.
1:46:46
SM: Yeah, did not I think Paul was the moderator was not he? Paul Krasner?
1:46:53
SG: No way, not with that one.
1:46:55
SM: I know he moderated one of those programs.
1:46:57
SG: Yeah. Yeah. And the thing about Tim was that he was a technician. And when it was his turn to talk, he leaned up and he put the first syllable right into that microphone and made the room rain. And he had the intention.
1:47:19
SM: Okay, I am going to, I am just going to list some names here that I do this, I finish each interview with this. And then I have a question on the legacy. But these are just personalities or terms from the era when boomers were young. And that is (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s and (19)80s so and you can just get quick responses, these are either personalities or terms or events. First one, first two are just your thoughts on Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda?
1:47:52
SG: Well, there was good leftists and stuff like that. That was fine. I did not mind Jane Fonda that they were not hardcore hippies or anything they were media people who were sympathetic.
1:48:09
SM: John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy.
1:48:12
SG: I cried when John was killed.
1:48:15
SM: Where were you? Obviously, people remember where they were when that happened. Do you remember the exact moment that you heard it?
1:48:22
SG: Yes, I came down out of my apartment on Castro Street in San Francisco right at the entrance of the tunnel, I came out and everybody was weird. I could not tell what it was but people were weird. I just walked up to somebody says what happened? And he knew I did not have to explain, he said: They killed Kennedy.
1:48:40
SM: Oh, wow.
1:48:43
SG: I could tell, the street was just freezing.
1:48:46
SM: And then the next everybody remembers the next four days around the TV set. Were you around it to?
1:48:52
SG: Somewhat but I did not have television. I had to go to somebody else’s. I did happen to be around a television set when Martin Luther King gave the "I have a" I got to see that. It was very eerie that they shot him the next day.
1:49:08
SM: Yeah, Bobby Kennedy.
1:49:11
SG: I loved Bobby too. He did not have a chance to develop but he would have been a heavy weight with a chance to develop and in those days look how easily it passed by that it was a Muslim that killed him. These days that would cause a fire.
1:49:32
SM: How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern?
1:49:36
SG: They were good guys and they tried hard and I appreciate them but I thought they the Clean for Gene was a bad idea.
1:49:49
SM: Hmm.
1:49:49
SG: He did not want the hippies to look like him. He wanted. They believed in him for his philosophy but he was not visibly supported by them. So, they put out the word Clean for Gene.
1:50:02
SM: So that turned a lot of people off towards Senator McCarthy?
1:50:05
SG: I think so.
1:50:07
SM: I wish he knew that because he was advised to do that.
1:50:10
SG: Yeah.
1:50:12
SM: That was not his idea.
1:50:13
SG: Good!
1:50:14
SM: No, because I already interviewed the guy in my book project here, who gave him the idea.
1:50:21
SG: Ahh.
1:50:21
SM: So that that did not come from him originally. Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X.
1:50:31
SG: Well, I was, in the beginning was a gringo enough that Martin Luther King embarrassed me because of his passion. And Malcolm X. You know, I got to like Malcolm X. I liked him pretty well. And it was one of the interesting things about him was when he went to go visit Islam and he came back. Islam is not a racist religion.
1:51:02
SM: Hmm mm.
1:51:03
SG: Of course, he had to do something to get him killed.
1:51:08
SM: Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew?
1:51:15
SG: Cheap ass politicians.
1:51:17
SM: How about Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford?
1:51:24
SG: Ronald Reagan. Like I said, I would not go to a movie that weekend. A Ronald Reagan movie. Gerald Ford got a bum rap. He was not as dumb as they made him out to be.
1:51:34
SM: How about Dwight Eisenhower?
1:51:36
SG: Now there is a general and a president, you know? And a guy that had the nerve to say the thing that they get people to say yet: It was clear and present danger to allow undo power of the United States military industrial complex.
1:51:55
SM: You are right.
1:51:56
SG: Best thing a president ever said.
1:52:01
SM: Hubert Humphrey.
1:52:04
SG: Called him Hugh the Jew but I kind of liked him.
1:52:06
SM: How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin?
1:52:10
SG: Well, I was at a gig with Jerry Rubin and I said something to him and he said: I did not mean you Stephen! People over thirty.
1:52:19
SM: Remember he was on the Phil Donahue show, and he really gave it to Phil Donahue.
1:52:23
SG: I was on the Donahue show.
1:52:29
SM: Who was on Donahue?
1:52:30
SG: Yeah.
1:52:31
SM: You were?
1:52:32
SG: Yeah.
1:52:33
SM: Really? What year was that?
1:52:35
SG: Well, it was kind of a spoof because Donahue was just about to Marlo Thomas and so he was running a bunch of shows, several a day to build up a little honeymoon time for him. And so, I got some kind of a crew, I never got to meet him. He did not come to the farm. He sent a crew down here. The lady from the crew was having an affair with one of the techs and stuff. Then I got to go talk to him and so I never got to - he did not have a clue who I was when we went on the air. And he said how many billionaires had I cashed out!
1:53:12
SM: How many what?
1:53:14
SG: Millionaires had I cashed out into our commune.
1:53:19
SM: Oh my gosh.
1:53:22
SG: This is Marlo fixed him up, she civilized him. But he did that to me and the result of that was we are coming down on Chicago in our Greyhound bus and the semis that are passing us say - hey look at that their bus man, hey, you guys got any wacky tabacky? Another time, though, we were in the Greyhound and a driver coming the other way said, to look at that old Greyhound, pretty as Dolly Parton in a wet t-shirt. [laughs]
1:53:53
SM: What are your thoughts on Chicago Eight because that was a very big trial.
1:53:58
SG: I knew somebody from then that [inaudible] those guys
1:54:03
SM: That was you know, that was both Rubin and Hoffman and Hayden and Huey Newton and Dave Dellinger and Lee Weiner.
1:54:16
SG: Well, I already told you about the guys I knew.
1:54:17
SM: Yeah. That was well, that was a big event in (19)68. What do you think about the women leaders? I have not been talking about them yet, but Gloria Steinem, Betty Freidan, Bella Abzug, the feminists.
1:54:33
SG: I like them fine they have a hard road to hoe and if they get shrill with it and like that but I am very impressed by their courage although I still think that, it was Johnson who called Bella Azberg was not it?
1:54:59
SM: I am not sure.
1:54:59
SG: [laughs]
1:55:03
SM: Yeah, when we talked one of the big issues within the movements itself, the civil rights, the antiwar, gay and lesbian, American Indian Movement, all the movements basically it was the sexism that took place within the movements in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. It is a lot of reasons why the women left the, the antiwar movement and joined, joined well, started the women's movement, the second wave, so to speak. How has when that happened with the movement, you obviously had men and women in the communes. How are women treated in the commune?
1:55:47
SG: Do not do not call it a commune. If you get in the habit of it you will put it on the page if you get in the habit of calling it that.
1:55:53
SM: The Farm.
1:55:54
SG: The Farm, exactly.
1:55:58
SM: I correct myself, sorry.
1:56:04
SG: [laughs] The way it was on the farm is that there was one pick-up on the farm that would start and it belonged to a midwife.
1:56:17
SM: I did not quite hear that. Say that again?
1:56:21
SG: I said that the way the farm was about that stuff, if there is only one pick-up on the farm that ran it would belong to a midwife.
1:56:28
SM: Okay.
1:56:29
SG: Our, we had guys who went to medical school from the farm and came back as doctors. And so, we had midwives and doctors instead of being the other way. It is one of the reasons that our midwives are so uppity. I love uppity women.
1:56:43
SM: Well that is that is a positive thing then. Your thoughts on the Black Panthers themselves the Huey Newton's, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Bobby Seales, H. Rap Brown.
1:56:53
SG: You know, I understood it and I loved them a lot but I was just sorry that they were so involved with the guns.
1:57:08
SM: Good point. Would you would say the same thing about the Weatherman?
1:57:11
SG: Yeah.
1:57:12
SM: Yeah and the American Indian Movement went that direction too.
1:57:17
SG: Being a combat veteran I had to carry dead and wounded back out of the rice paddies. It gets rid of making guns seem romantic pretty well. What was the last thing you just said there about?
1:57:29
SM: They were the names of the Black Panthers: Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown that you already mentioned.
1:57:37
SG: I met Stokely. I did not meet H. Rap Brown buy my friend got killed starting his car.
1:57:47
SM: He is in jail now. You want to want to talk about American Indians? Yeah, the American Indian Movement was between (19)69 and (19)73 very strong. They took over Alcatraz and then ended up at Wounded Knee where there was violence.
1:58:09
SG: I know the two guys who got busted.
1:58:20
SM: Dennis Banks.
1:58:21
SG: Dennis Banks and what is his name?
1:58:25
SM: The other one.
1:58:26
SG: Russell Means.
1:58:27
SM: Russel Means. Yeah.
1:58:28
SG: I have a funny relationship with Russell Means he knows I got juice. He does not know why. [laughs] I saw him at a thing with him one time and I said 'Hey, Russell, you are really doing good.' And the look he gave back to me said, who the fuck are you to tell me how I am doing?
1:58:48
SM: He has done pretty well. He has been in movies.
1:58:50
SG: Yeah, well, they called Hollywood before he had ever been in the movie.
1:58:53
SM: Right?
1:58:55
SG: But also, we were at a thing and in Taos and we were supposed to hold it down to ten minutes and Russell says well I expect brother Steve will try to hold it down but I do not know if I can or not.
1:59:09
SM: Wow. Well you know, Alcatraz was happening when you were teaching that class. I believe.
1:59:14
SG: Very likely.
1:59:15
SM: Yeah. Because that was (19)69. And it might have been an issue too. Couple more names here, Dr. Benjamin Spock.
1:59:25
SG: Well, he was considered the godfather of the movement and all that and he said one thing that was like, true, but I was kind of sorry he said it. He said that they did not really pay any attention to us and we knocked all the windows out of the Senate [inaudible] building.
1:59:43
SM: He was in the group that levitated the Pentagon.
1:59:47
SG: Yeah and [inaudible] was in that.
1:59:51
SM: And Norman Mailer was there too. He wrote a book on how about the Barrigan brothers Philip and Daniel Barrigan.
1:59:59
SG: Oh, that is what you call a good Christian!
2:00:03
SM: Walter Cronkite.
2:00:05
SG: I love the one right in the middle of the shit totally hitting the fan. The biggest, best circulation magazine cover was Cronkite and at the wheel of his yacht and it was obviously the ship of the day.
2:00:26
SM: Daniel Ellsberg.
2:00:29
SG: Great dude. Great dude.
2:00:33
SM: How about Walt Disney?
2:00:36
SG: You mean?
2:00:38
SM: The man who created the dynasty?
2:00:43
SG: Dynasty?
2:00:44
SM: Disney, Disneyland, Disney Studios.
2:00:49
SG: I kind of like the dope smokers that used to work for him before he started hiring people who smoked dope.
2:00:55
SM: He is more influential than people realize with the TV in the (19)50s.
2:01:02
SG: Yeah. Well I did not have TV in the (19)50s.
2:01:05
SM: You know, it is interesting Howdy Doody is another one because somebody wrote an article that Howdy Doody was the reason why the (19)60s began, can you believe that?
2:01:18
SG: No.
2:01:18
SM: [laughs] Just a few more here, Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali.
2:01:24
SG: Well, I feel that the thing about them is like when Joe Lewis went and knocked Max Schmelling down. And it was that is one of the ways that people can get out is athletics because they break out of their cultural shell that way that those guys showed to break things out that way. I have to admit that I had to smile when he was trying to talk about what kind of a boxer he was and he says just look at me. I am pretty. I am pretty!
2:02:07
SM: [laughs] Yeah. How about Robert McNamara and John Dean?
2:02:18
SG: John Dean was the one they called the young man with the dirty hands of the clean mind. And he has still got a good reputation on the tube, he used to talk all the time. McNamara, the guys were just what do you call them? Apparatchik?
2:02:35
SM: Yeah. How about Watergate and Tet?
2:02:40
SG: Tet? The Tet Offensive?
2:02:44
SM: Yeah.
2:02:46
SG: Well, Watergate was good because it got Nixon in deep personal shit. But the Tet Offensive that was just them finishing kicking us out of Vietnam was not it?
2:03:03
SM: Yeah, Tet was in (19)68, which many people believe is why LBJ decided to withdraw. Because even though we beat them back, they, they had the opportunity to attack us all over the countries of Vietnam that is.
2:03:22
SG: Well, Vietnam was when we took over a place that was being held in an evil political grip from the people who was holding, which was the French. And we just took over somebody else's old Colonial got there and we had to pay the bill for life was ours.
2:03:46
SM: How would you define the hippies? in comparing them to the hippie?
2:03:53
SG: Era? Okay, he was International.
2:03:59
SM: They were they were much more political than the hippies though, would not you say?
2:04:03
SG: Yeah, but politics is not bad when you need it.
2:04:07
SM: Right?
2:04:08
SG: The politics if you are comparing politics to inspiration and stuff.
2:04:14
SM: Yeah
2:04:14
SG: You want to give people guns and things, they got to know.
2:04:14
SM: I have three slogans here that that I have asked each person that I have interviewed, that define the boomer generation, and these are the three slogans: Malcolm X: "by any means necessary" which is symbolizing the more violent aspects, the guns, the radicalism. Then you have got the Bobby Kennedy who gave that those words: "Some men sees things as they are and ask why I see things that never were and ask why not." That was kind of the activist mentality and all the movements without violence. And then what I call the more hippie mentality which is the which was on the Peter Max posters that were so popular in college campuses in the early (19)70s which said, and I had one in my room: "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should get together, it'll be beautiful." And the only other quote that somebody said to me was "We shall overcome" which symbolic of the civil rights movement. Do you think those kinds of define the boomers?
2:05:18
SG: No, no, I do not think so.
2:05:35
SM: Do you have some that you feel would define them?
2:05:46
SG: I do not think of them as the boomers. I think that that is a that is a psychological and media kind of a thing. And it does not have a lot of magic to me.
2:06:06
SM: But the term may not but do the- do the way the people that were living at that time, the younger people, does that kind of cover them? Or are there some quotes that maybe are better?
2:06:21
SG: Well, the first one of that bunch of the ones that you gave me, well, I like this
2:06:32
SM: The Malcolm X?
2:06:34
SG: What was this?
2:06:36
SM: By any means necessary.
2:06:37
SG: Oh no, I do not like that one. By any means necessary is a threat. By any means necessary is trying to justify guns. I do not like that.
2:06:51
SM: Bobby Kennedy's is okay. The Bobby Kennedy ones, okay?
2:06:57
SG: Yeah, I like that. I like that.
2:06:58
SM: How about the Peter Max one?
2:07:03
SG: It is okay. But it gets kind of long and involved, it is not what I am picking out as the writer [inaudible]
2:07:13
SM: Are there any words that you think could better define?
2:07:25
SG: People who talk about how the (19)70s was a drag? When the (9)70s was happening, we were building the farm and we some of our great, finest years. It is like that. I, I sort of parted company [inaudible] when I came out on the road and we came here [inaudible]
2:07:56
SM: You know a lot of people do when they compare the (19)60s in the (19)70s they really put the (19)70s way below the (19)60s.
2:08:03
SG: Yeah.
2:08:04
SM: Particularly after (19)73.
2:08:07
SG: Yeah well, we built The Farm at that time. We were very strong. And you know, we had a United Nations grounds pass because we were an NGO united nation. We were powerful political [inaudible] categories and stuff.
2:08:28
SM: A lot of reasons why people attack the (19)70s as they think of disco music and-
2:08:35
SG: Yeah.
2:08:36
SM: And the lack, and the dying of activism. I think that is oftentimes-
2:08:40
SG: Our guys said they might start a band called the Cisco Ducks.
2:08:47
SM: Oh, that would be interesting.
2:08:50
SG: Which is "Disco sucks" Y.
2:08:52
SM: Yeah, I remember that. Ok, a couple more and then we are done. Vietnam veterans against the war. Your thoughts on them?
2:09:01
SG: Well, the Vietnam War was such a hard on the other people thing, that the guys were just used up like that. And I got big compassion for Vietnam vets and [inaudible]
2:09:15
SM: Have you visited the wall in Washington?
2:09:17
SG: No.
2:09:18
SM: Oh, okay. Have you seen it though? on TV or?
2:09:22
SG: Yeah, sure.
2:09:23
SM: Have you talked to any vets? What do you think that wall means to this nation?
2:09:29
SG: Well, it was supposed to make them notice that a lot of young men were sacrificed but I do not. Let us see Kurt Vonnegut has the place where this guy says we are not going to have any airplanes fly over and celebrate the war heroes. What we are going to do is what we ought to do all of the guys who were in power and had anything to do with it, are going to [inaudible] fluid rub mud on themselves and crawl around on the ground and oink like pigs.
2:10:09
SM: Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.
2:10:15
SG: Clinton was skillful but unreal. And Jimmy Carter was really real it could have been more skillful.
2:10:24
SM: How about George Bush, the first?
2:10:32
SG: Some rich guy that had no business in politics.
2:10:39
SM: How about the Catonsville nine. Are you aware that? That was the Barrigan brothers.
2:10:44
SG: Well, I thought that they were they were good priests, that is what priests are supposed to do, stand up for everybody.
2:10:52
SM: How about My Lai-
2:10:54
SG: Massacre?
2:10:56
SM: Yes.
2:10:58
SG: Well, there is so much illegal violence in the cleanest war that none of its clean and violence as a way to just threatening people and bullying.
2:11:22
SM: And people think that and a couple other instances is the reason why Vets were not treated well when they came home. Not so much by Americans as a whole but by organizations, veterans’ organizations. Angela Davis and Timothy Leary.
2:11:42
SG: Well, I like Angela Davis accept its a dumb thing to carry a pistol into a courtroom. It was a stupid thing to do and it ruined her reputation. And Tim Leary, I always thought of him as Uncle Tim. Because your uncle does not care what you do as much as your dad does.
2:12:02
SM: Right. And we already mentioned The Weathermen. The year 1968. Just the year.
2:12:15
SG: I met the love of my life who I am still with 40 some years later.
2:12:23
SM: John Lennon.
2:12:25
SG: I liked John Lennon. I was in Germany and when I talked it was being translator. And so, I talked about that when he says, "train car with (...?). He translated it and then I turned to my translator and said, you did not say [inaudible]
2:12:48
SM: Still there?
2:12:50
SG: Yeah.
2:12:50
SM: Okay. Yeah, Barry Goldwater and William Buckley.
2:13:01
SG: Goldwater is an honest whatever he is. And Buckley is not. Well, he was kind of a gross old fart but he had a hard row to hoe and he did pretty good.
2:13:34
SM: How about the Little Rock Nine and the Free Speech Movement?
2:13:39
SG: The Free Speech Movement like I said, I answered the phone when they called [inaudible] but I do not know about that nine? Which nine?
2:13:49
SM: The Little Rock Nine were the, they refused entrance to the school, Little Rock, Arkansas.
2:13:58
SG: I guess I missed those guys.
2:13:59
SM: When the Port Huron statement, which was the SDS manifesto, and the Peace Corps.
2:14:07
SG: Peace Corps was a good thing.
2:14:10
SM: When the best history books are written they are often written 50 years minimum after a period takes place. So, the (19)60s some of the best ones should be written in 10 years. But some say that the best books are written once the generation has passed on, which is one day all 74 million boomers will no longer be around. Your thoughts on what do you think historians and sociologists will be writing in saying about this period, and the young people and you know, they still got 20 more years of life, even though the oldest is 63, and the youngest is 47. So, they are, they are still going to do a lot of things yet. But-
2:15:02
SG: A revolution is that thing that those who can do and those who cannot teach. I did not like being in the penitentiary but it did not hurt me a bit as far as my immediate history.
2:15:23
SM: And you were in the penitentiary for selling drugs?
2:15:26
SG: No, I never sold dope. I was in the penitentiary because guys on the Farm were caught growing grass. I did a year.
2:15:34
SM: Okay.
2:15:38
SG: I had the best penitentiary stay outside of Martha Stewart. I mean the warden would come out and get with me in the yard. One time the guy says, well you are vegetarian, I am a vegetarian, what do I do? And basically, they said, go line up with the black Muslim which I not know what they were talking about. I got there. The black Muslim was not in the chow line, he was pre-arranged [inaudible]
2:16:06
SM: Wow.
2:16:07
SG: So, I said, [inaudible] somebody said I should ask you guys about vegetarian food and the guy says someone has been in the [inaudible] And then when they found out who we were and where we were at, I was in the chow line and that same leader that afternoon was behind me in the chow line. And he kind of shouldered me in the back a little bit and [inaudible] white means 'very clean brother'.
2:16:40
SM: I guess, is there any questions that you felt I was going to ask that I did not?
2:16:49
SG: Well, I do not know. The thing is, I do not depend too much on the on the aphorisms and the media, they use aphorisms like they are important but they are not really that important.
2:17:08
SM: So, you do not like that term? Boomer.
2:17:10
SG: No, not really.
2:17:11
SM: Yeah, because you know, the group that followed Boomers are Generation X.
2:17:16
SG: I can hardly hear you.
2:17:18
SM: Okay, can you hear me now?
2:17:20
SG: Better?
2:17:21
SM: Yeah. The group that found is Generation X, and today's young people are Millennials. So, it is something that educators put on and they call the Greatest Generation, the World War II generation and then the Silent Generation, which was only five years. So, it is the way people put labels on and I found by doing this project that most people do not like the labels.
2:17:49
SG: Yeah.
2:17:50
SM: My last question is this. If you do not like the Boomer Generation, what would what would the Vietnam generation? Woodstock generation? The Protest Generation, what? How would you label the generation?
2:18:06
SG: What generation?
2:18:08
SM: The generation born after World War II.
2:18:16
SG: I do not know that is not how I do my nomenclature. I do not sort names is to maybe complicate things.
2:18:29
SM: He just more really and not-
2:18:32
SG: I cannot get you over your phone anymore.
2:18:34
SM: Are you there? Can you hear me?
2:18:37
SG: Barely.
2:18:38
SM: Well, I am done.
2:18:40
SG: Year what?
(End of Interview)
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Interview with Stephen Gaskin
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Gaskin, Stephen ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Authors; Political activists--United States; Hippies; Gaskin, Stephen--Interviews
Description
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Stephen Gaskin (1935 - 2014) was an American Hippie counterculture icon. He was an author of over a dozen books and a political activist. He went to prison in 1974 for marijuana possession and his voting rights were rescinded. Gaskin was a recipient for the first Right Livelihood Award in 1980 and an inductee in the Counterculture Hall of Fame in 2004.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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2010-05-13
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.103a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.103b
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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138:44
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Title
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McKiernan Interviews
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
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Stephen McKiernan
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Binghamton University Libraries
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2009-11-19
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
David Lance Goines, 1945-2023
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for A Constructed Roman Alphabet."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4995,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for <em>A Constructed Roman Alphabet</em>.<br /><br />David Lance Goines died in Berkeley, California, on February 19, 2023, at the age of 77.<br /></span>
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Binghamton University Libraries
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audio/mp4
Original Format
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1 Microcassette
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
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<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam memorial&quot;}\" data-sheets-userformat=\"{&quot;2&quot;:4993,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;10&quot;:0,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}\">Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam memorial.</span>"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":3,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588}}">Birth control; Liberal arts; Abortion; Civil rights movement; Newt Gingrich; Environmental movement; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; WWI; Welfare; Vietnam Memorial</span>
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82:41
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Artists; Calligraphers; Typographers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Goines, David Lance, 1945--Interviews
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McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: David Lance Goines
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 19 November 2009
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:09):
Testing one, two. David Lance Goines. Okay. The first question I want to ask, and then speak loud into your machine, into your phone. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
DG (00:00:34):
Well, there were so many things going on, that one of the biggest changes was development of birth control pills, which truly profoundly altered the way young people engaged in their sexual explorations. That is both an indicator of, creator of what was going on in 1960, a remarkable change in sexual relations. There were a lot of other things. Baby boomers of course were feeling their oats, and the explosion of changes in society due to their powerful influence. The change in music became very much focused on the young generation and the change in sexual morality, the adoption of what had thereto for been peripheral or non-existent drugs. The whole change in art, which once again was pretty much young folks art and fashion. Basically, I would say the tremendous shift in social power from the older generation to the baby boomers.
SM (00:02:16):
Is there one specific event? I think I know what it is, but let us say before the free speech movement, was there one specific event in your life that made you who you are before you even stepped foot on that Berkeley campus?
DG (00:02:29):
Well, it would not have been before I set foot on the Berkeley campus, but Berkeley campus was the big changing event. I mean, I was headed toward a life of probably academic accomplishment. I was headed toward probably a professorship eventually, and that seems like a reasonable place for me to have been headed perhaps, and perhaps an attorney. I did not really know. I had previously been studied for the Luther Print Ministry, and that did not work out. I was pretty much at loose ends as far as a career was concerned and was pursuing my interest in classical literature, Greek and Latin language literature, which I was not doing terribly well, and was going to be shifting more towards liberal arts probably in that sophomore year. But I had become involved, through my roommates, with a number of campus organizations, which were relatively innocuous and also had become involved once again through with the civil rights movement, which I had not previously had much attention paid. Basically, becoming involved with the organization slate caused my expulsion at the beginning of sophomore year, and that of course completely changed my path. Had I not been expelled that day, I would have gone a very, very different path.
SM (00:04:39):
Well, you have already answered the question, how did the free speech movement change your life, but what did this movement say about the boomer generation itself? Did what happened at Berkeley change how the universities treat students and the impact that this has still today on university campuses? The reason why I bring this up, David, because it was very obvious that people like you and Mario and others were understood what if student empowerment was all about. Still there? Hello? Hello?
Speaker 3 (00:05:19):
If you would like to make a call then-
SM (00:05:20):
Oops. What happened at Berkeley? How did this change how universities treat students today? Did you see that this impact has been ongoing, or have universities gone back to the way they were? Still there?
Speaker 3 (00:05:37):
If you would like to make a call, please hang up and try-
DG (00:05:37):
If not, we might have to do this by email.
SM (00:05:50):
Or else I can maybe do it on myself. What did the movement say about the boomer generation, and I speak about the free speech movement, and did what happened at the Berkeley campus back in (19)64 and (19)65 really change how universities looked at students, not only then, but now?
DG (00:06:13):
One change that was very noticeable with the University of California campuses thereafter were built without any central meeting places. Santa Cruz University, for example, has no center. There is no place for students to get together and hold protests. It has separate campuses that are widely distributed, and in fact many, many students do not see students from other departments. The fear of student unrest has haunted the university, and of course right now with the dramatic raise you can see the university is experiencing another episode of unrest. Whether or not they deal with this appropriately or whether they can deal with it appropriately remains seen. I do not think it is going to be the same kind of protests by any means, but the sector of student unrest certainly haunts universities all over the United States and in other countries as well.
SM (00:07:28):
Do you feel, David, part of this is because the people that are now running the universities were boomers and that they may have been non-activist boomers, but they experienced it as students or whatever, and they knew what happened. That is ironic that a lot of them are either boomers or the generation that [inaudible]
DG (00:07:52):
One of the administrators talking today to the newspaper about the student unrest at the University of California said, "In my student days, I would have done the same." His student days were probably my student days, although he seems a little younger. The University of California and other campuses really are having terrible financial problems, and they are dealing with them the way most other large government organizations are, which is by not cutting their gigantic staff, but by raising prices for their services. This is making university students very, very unhappy. However, university students are not going to not get an education simply because it is expensive. Things are going to change. They are going to be really unhappy. They are going to make the administration aware that they are really unhappy, but I do not think they are actually going to accomplish anything. We were dealing with idealistic issues. We were not talking about paying more money for something. We had a very, very strong assessment side as whole. Our lives were changed a great deal, and the whole course of American history was changed a great deal, but I do not think there is any real comparison between what we were doing then and what kids are doing now.
SM (00:09:37):
When you look at the boomer generation though, would not you say that one of their qualities, characteristics is this business of challenging authority, a concept of activism?
DG (00:09:53):
We did so, because we could. We were very powerful, and there were more of us, we had more economic clout, we had a growing political clout. I mean, remember most of us at that time were under 21 and we could not vote. The voting age has since gone down, and the power of this block that was emerging into its voting potential was truly sobering to the elected, the representatives. They knew that in only a very short period of time, we were going to be the ones doing the voting, and we already showed how powerful we were. Just as with the women's movement when the women got the vote in 1919, this tremendously changed the attitude of politicians because they knew that all of a sudden there was a huge voting block that was not there before. They had not had to pay any attention to it at all. The same the happened with our huge voting block that moved pretty much as the unit into the polls. It did not turn out the way we had in mind, of course, because things never do, but we continually developed our economic, social and political power, which is now fully in our hands at this point. People do not give up power once they have gotten it, and we are not going to give up power either. The new generation is going to have to figure out how to get power away from us, probably by waiting around until we die, which will work extremely well.
SM (00:11:41):
What do you think are, list some characteristics that you think define the boomer generation. Again, it is between 70 and 74 million people and we are dealing with a lot of different people here, but if there were characteristics, what would be their strengths and their weaknesses?
DG (00:11:58):
Well, the strengths are that we actually possess a great deal of real power. Weaknesses is that we have basically, now that we are in power, we are quite complacent. We really genuinely changed American society when we think of birth control bill, think of abortion, think of civil rights movement, think of the anti-Vietnam protest, and so on and so forth. The change in morality, the change in the way society behaves and views itself is entirely due to our pressure. But once we got what we wanted, we relaxed. We are also, to some extent, preventing the younger generation from the asserting its power and control because we have it and we do not particularly want to give it up. As I said, they are going to have to be patient, wait till we start dying in much, much larger numbers.
SM (00:12:58):
What do you feel has been the impact that boomers have had on their children and their grandchildren? We are dealing with college students today that are so-called millennials, and they do not really have any problem with their parents, but only about 15-20 percent now of the parents are boomers. They are generation Xers now who are having their kids in college.
DG (00:13:17):
We are the grandparents at this point. Well, we still basically own everything. I mean, we physically own everything and we are responsible. I mean people like me, I bought my house in 1980. My monthly mortgage payment is about half a bunch people pay for an apartment. I bought my shop, the building I am in, in 1980. I got my business started in 1965. I am basically firmly entrenched. I am not having the economic problems that a lot of other people are having. Young people now, I mean when I went to college, my semester fees were $75. I worked my way through school. I had a halftime job as a page in the library, a dollar and a quarter an hour, and I was-was not rich, but I was not having a problem. It is not possible to work your way through college now. It is not possible. Nobody, even at the public university level, can work their way through school. It is not possible. The private universities do not even think about it. What happens is that when I also, when graduated or potentially graduated, I was more or less guaranteed a job simply possessing a college degree, guaranteed a good job. Now possessing a college degree is a guarantee of getting a job as a waiter or a waitress.
SM (00:14:58):
Yeah, you are right.
DG (00:14:58):
You are not equipped to go out into the job market unless you have gone into some art sciences like my nephew who is mechanical engineer or my niece who's a nurse. If you have gone into hard sciences or hard social services, yes you will get a job, but if you have got a degree in medieval French literature, that and 10 cents will get you a cup of coffee. It is worthless. You enter the job market with the degree that basically does not give you anything and that this makes people very, very unhappy. They are deeply in debt and they have got something that is not negotiable currency, whereas when I went in and not only was I not in debt, I was guaranteed good employment. I mean, this makes you very sad and very-very thick apart.
SM (00:15:58):
Right.
DG (00:16:01):
I think that the current generation is bitterly disappointed. I mean, basically we say in jest that my generation used up all the fun, but we not only did we use up all the fun, we used up all the money. Things are bad now, and they are going to get worse. I am the leading edge of social security, and millions and millions of my fellow Americans are going to demand that social security. Well, there is no money for it. You do not get a good job when you graduate from college, you are deeply in debt if you graduate from college, and you are not guaranteed basically anything that we took for granted. We just took for granted all these wonderful things. For my dollar and a quarter an hour job, for one hour's labor. I could buy five or six gallons of gasoline, I could buy 25 candy bars, I could get a pack of cigarettes of beer and a decent meal for my one hour's work. Now how many packs of cigarettes can you get at minimum wage now, one? How many gallons of gasoline can you get for your, let us say $8 an hour, two or three? How many candy bars can you buy, between six and eight? Okay, that is a huge, huge difference. Wages have not kept up the cost of living. For a while, it looked like anybody who wanted to get a house, but that turns out not to work out too well. You cannot get a house now. I mean, you have to be able to, people right now are coming up 40 percent down payments, and that is what allows them to get a loan from a bank. No more of this signature stuff. The economic situation is bad, but my generation, the first generation in history of America, of human race, never to go hungry. We never wanted for food. That had never happened before. My parents were both very badly malnourished during the Depression. My mother went temporarily blind from a vitamin B deficiency. Her parents lived through miserable economic time. They had a very hard time. We did not know what want was. My whole generation, beginning in 1945 when I was born, everything was swell. We were the only intact economic power in the world. We fed ourselves and everybody else. We bought our own cars, we bought our own product. Nobody else could compete with us either financially or economically or in terms of production, and that is over. That has changed.
SM (00:19:27):
Where does the blame? Is there a blame game here? The boomer generation, and you know this being in Berkeley and elsewhere, that they are the many of the boomers felt that they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to change the world. They were going to end racism, sexism, and war. They were going to create a whole new world of love and peace and harmony.
DG (00:19:52):
Good does not it?
SM (00:19:53):
What went wrong?
DG (00:19:55):
Well, nothing went wrong. You cannot change everything just because you want to. Also, think there is the law of unintended consequences that crops up. If you want the Peace Corps and you want to help all the starving people in Africa, you have to realize that what you are creating is a dependent population that you are going to have to keep on feeding because they do not have the ability to feed themselves. When you run out of money and you decide you cannot keep feeding everyone in Africa, what is going to happen to those people? Well, they are going to get really mad. You mean well, you really do mean well, but the road to hell is paved with good intention. We have created all sorts of whirlwinds. That tornadoes out there without really meaning to, we did not mean harm, we did not end war. Just wanting to end war is not going to make it end. It does not take two people to fight, it only takes one, and you cannot spread your message of peace, love, and good vibes to those who are not interested. He comes up and starts pounding on you with his fist. Well, either fight back or not, but that has nothing to do with what he has done. My message of peace and love will not really work. It is not one [inaudible] We had tremendous economic and manufacturing power, and because of that we did not develop anything that we perhaps should have. For example, small cars. We did not need small cars. We had huge roads, we had plenty of gas with really cheap. We did not have to pay any attention to the small car market, so in the 1970s, there was a small car market that had been created by foreign manufacturers and there was absolutely nothing that American manufacturers had so the market began to shift toward foreigners. Had we developed small cars in the 1950s and 1960s, would have been a very different story, but we did not because we did not have to. Now, I look down the street and I see oh zero American cars. That would be not one single American car. I am seeing all foreign cars. They are German, they are Japanese. Nope. They are German car. Because of Toyota, right. Where are the American cars? Well, they are going out of business. Why are they going out of business? Because they did not respond to a market that they did not know was there. It is noticeable, it is not bad. They did not have to change, so they did not.
SM (00:22:58):
How do you respond to the critics of the boomer generation? You see them all the time. George Will, whenever he gets a chance, oftentimes writes articles blaming the problems of our society today on that generation that grew up in the (19)60s and (19)70s. I believe he is part of it, but he has written a lot about the failure of that time. Newt Gingrich, when he came into power in (19)94, talked about it and he still does occasionally, that all the problems, the drug culture, the lack of the sexual revolution, all the concept of everybody is a victim, all these things, the welfare state, everything. Breakup of the American family, divorce rate, all goes back to those times when boomers were young and whether in the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the way they lived their lives so the problems were all during that time. The Democratic Party even broke apart because of that.
DG (00:23:59):
Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that they are absolutely right. So what? What are they going to do? Get back to the way back machine and go back to the 1945 and me not being conceived? How are they going to change anything by their pointing and complaining? Does not make the slightest difference. I do not pay any attention to it. They are remarks are meaningless. Are you going to go back and un-invent birth control pills? Are you going to go back and change any of the developments that have happened? Are you going to not let us go to the moon? How are you going to do all that? Well, you are not going to do it. It is a waste of my breath to even respond to their criticism, and therefore will not respond to their criticism.
SM (00:24:46):
How about the movements? Because one of the things we all know historically, not only what happened at the free speech movement, but the civil rights movement was already strong, and the anti-war movement became very big at the time boomers were young, but it also spawned other movements like the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, Chicano, Native American, the environmental movement. It goes on and on. Could you talk about those movements and how important they were in defining the generation?
DG (00:25:15):
They were happening anyway. One thing that is important to remember is that the mill does not make the water run, my great-grandmother often said. An example is the Clairol hair coloring product. They did not create women's demand for hair coloring. They recognized that there was a product that would do it and they capitalized on it. The women's movement has been in continuous operation since about 1795, and we did not create it. We merely responded to what was already going on. Do they want to go back and not give women the vote and have all that fun again? I do not think so. The changes in society have far more to do with technological changes and sheer mass. When I was born, there were 135 million people in the United States. How many are there now? Triple that? Did we cause this terrible thing to happen? No, we did not. Right? The welfare system that we inherited was a product of the late 1940s and early 1950s. We had nothing, whatever to do that. I was seven years old. The welfare system and the terrible things that have come in consequence of that would be perhaps you can blame Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Be my guest. But just because there is a problem does not mean there is a solution, and if there is a solution, the famous quote, "To every question is a simple, easy to understand, wrong answer." The environmental situation in which we are was certainly not started by us. That was begun by Rachel Carlson in 1963. Well, I would have been how old? 20? No, 18. Sorry, I did not start it. The birth control pill, that was started by Margaret-
SM (00:27:29):
Sanger.
DG (00:27:31):
Margaret Sanger and Katherine McCormick. That was 1958. I was eight. No, wait. How old was I? 13. I did not do it. Sorry, wrong guy. These people have complaints about the things that have happened in our society, they should complain to the preceding generation, if anything.
SM (00:27:56):
One must say though, the anti-war movement was something very strong to the boomers, and particularly your thoughts on how important the boomers were on college campuses and ending that Vietnam War?
DG (00:28:08):
I do not think we were terribly important in ending the war. We were very important to making it quite clear that we were not happy about being drafted. There were wars that had been going on for quite a while before that people demonstrated great unhappiness with, but the wars went on nonetheless. The mistake of the powers that be was in drafting college students. College students did not want to go. Do not draft the ones who can fight back, draft the ones who cannot fight back. I do not know what result, I mean that war was a mistake. It was pretty obvious that we had gotten off on the wrong foot. But unfortunately, once you start something, just because you realize you have made a mistake does not mean you can end it. If I look out there and I see, oh my God, there is a huge forest fire. Let me blow out the match that I just started it with, what does that do? That does nothing. Right? Just because there is a big forest fire and you started it with your match, does not mean that blowing out the match have any effect. I know what caused it, but there is nothing I can do about it. I mean, if you had asked me to go talk to Ho Chi Minh, maybe things would be different, but I was not old enough.
SM (00:29:43):
When did the?
DG (00:29:43):
[inaudible] was 1954. I was what? Eight, seven.
SM (00:29:47):
Right. Yeah. In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end?
DG (00:29:55):
1960s began in 1960 and they ended in 1970. I mean, what do you mean?
SM (00:30:00):
Was there a watershed moment that you knew that this-
DG (00:30:03):
[inaudible] event? No, there were many, many things. There were many, many things that contributed to it, and the 1960s is just a convenient calendar moment. Delete the calendar. It had no effect. There were so many things going on. A lot of it had to do with the economic power of those who became recognized as the boomers. A lot of it had to do with the immense technological and social power of the United States. After World War II, a lot of us had to do with amazing technological changes that were quite unthought of in the 1940s. Take computers for example. They just all came together with the confluence of things. You can start at any level you want. You can start talking about the combine harvester and chemical fertilizer, you can talk about changes in metallurgy. Where do you want to start? Everything came together, and it was largely because of our extremely large number and our tremendous self. We had a huge amount of power, and we used the power because when you have power, you use it. But what you do [inaudible] First, we asked permission nicely and then when that turned out not to work too well, we did what we goddamn well pleased, and no one could stop us.
SM (00:31:52):
People that say that, well, (19)60s really began when John Kennedy was killed and it really ended either Kent State or when the helicopter flew off the building in Saigon in (19)75.
DG (00:32:08):
They are free to say that if they wish.
SM (00:32:19):
Right.
DG (00:32:19):
But there are no beginnings, there are no endings.
SM (00:32:21):
I am just speculating here. If I had 500 people off from all over the country in an auditorium and we took a vote on the event that shaped their line lives the most, what do you think the number one event would be?
DG (00:32:34):
Depends who these people are. You are just thinking them at random?
SM (00:32:39):
Yeah-yeah. Just boomers. Anybody born to-
DG (00:32:42):
Oh, someone born after 1945 and before 1960?
SM (00:32:44):
(19)64.
DG (00:32:46):
(19)64, whatever it is. I do not know. There would be probably many-many answers. There were huge, amazing technological things that happened. Man landing on the moon is pretty darn dramatic. The relaxation of social [inaudible] as far as literature, movie, books, and the like. The computer, probably I would have to say technologically the computer. This is having as much effect on society as the invention of printing by movable type and 1456, and the change is happening every bit as fast. Socially, the sheer numbers of people who came into existence after World War II in the United States, they are simple numbers. They are simple numbers and their immense economic power. Young people always want to have sex, and drugs, and rock and roll. I mean, that is what they all want. But we could actually get away with it, so many of it. They had so much power. Basically, the grownups could not stop us. They tried. Now we are the grown-ups.
SM (00:34:16):
When the (19)60s happened and a lot of the challenge of two authority took place on college campuses, I would go back to the (19)50s when things seemed to be so calm and most of the boomers were in elementary school. They had great Christmases and Thanksgivings. They were always with their parents. Parents were providing them with...
DG (00:34:36):
Unlike Ronald Reagan.
SM (00:34:37):
A lot. Of course, we watched black and white television, and of course we were had the thread of the nuclear bomb all the time, but the kids I was around never really thought that much about the nuclear bomb.
DG (00:34:50):
You are actually buying Ronald Reagan's stick and chain world.
SM (00:34:54):
No, I am not buying it.
DG (00:34:55):
[inaudible]
SM (00:34:57):
But the question is, what was it? Was there something about the (19)50s that helped shape young people? Even if they were only reaching junior high school when 1960 arrived, but was there something about the (19)50s that somehow helped shape them, whether it be television or?
DG (00:35:16):
Never went hungry. Never wanted for food. It had never happened before. This is extremely important. We never went hungry. We did not know what privation was. We expected whatever we wanted, and we got it. The 1950s were, remember, right after World War I, World War II, and the Great Depression. People were poor. They were poor for a long time. One whole generation. My father, for example. Now my grandfather born in World War I, then there was the Great Depression, then there was World War II, and then there is the (19)50s where it can buy a new refrigerator for the very first time. You can buy a car. You do not have to drive that 1932 Ford anymore. You could buy whatever you wanted. It was wonderful. There was everything. Buy anything you wanted to, whereas for the preceding, oh what, 70 years, had not been able to buy anything, right? During the war, could you buy a new dress? No, you could not. Did you get all the butter you wanted? No, you could not. Get a new refrigerator? No. Did you get a new car? No, they were not making cars or refrigerators. In the 1950s, all of a sudden, not only could you get a new refrigerator, but you get a new refrigerator that actually worked. You could get a new car that was actually pretty good. My grandfather, neither my father nor my grandfather had that new car ever in their lives. My father's first car was in 1934 Dodge, and it was a piece of junk but it was all there was. You were not risking your life in some war. You were not starving because you did not have any money. You were not basically living in a barter economy where you were trading eggs for say, gasoline. It was a wonderful world and that the world I was born into, and I did not know any different. I had never been in a world with privation.
SM (00:37:42):
But you admit though, that there was privation in the (19)50s because when you watched black and white TV and you watched the Mickey Mouse Club and you saw all those Hobby Duty and all the television shows, you never saw people of color.
DG (00:37:55):
Well, there might have been privation, but compared to what had been going on before, believe me, it was nothing. I mean, you can say, yeah, people were poor, people were unhappy. Well, people are always poor and they are always unhappy, but compared to the 1930s, compared to the war years, compared to World War I, get real. Come on. Do not try to get the private. A person on welfare now has a better standard of living than a middle class family of 1900. A middle class American family of 1900 would have nothing like the expectations set up Negro on welfare in Oakland gets. Nothing. No comparison. Clean water, good streets, automobile, television, telephone, electrical power, adequate, safe food. Come on. There is no comparison.
SM (00:38:54):
Do you feel that? This is a question I just want to ask, and we asked the same question to Senator Musky a year before he passed away, when I took students down to Washington, DC and he had an interesting response that we did not expect. But here is the question. I want to read this to you. It says, "Do you feel boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth. The division between black and white, divisions between those who supported authority and those who were against it, between those who supported the troops and those who did not? We know that the Vietnam Memorial in Washington has healed many of the veterans and their families, but what has it really done to heal the nation as James Scruggs says in the title of his book?" Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this about 40 years later? Where it is a statement time heals all wounds, the truth. I say this because when we asked Senator Musky this, we were thought he was going to talk about 1968 and all those divisions at the Chicago Convention, and his response is we have not healed since the Civil War. He was in the hospital, and he said he had saw the Ken Burn series and it really touched him with 400,000 people that died and almost a generation wiped out and the population was obviously a lot smaller than it is today, but just your thoughts on this is there an issue of healing?
DG (00:40:29):
Okay, the first place, you have asked a question that contains its own answer, and consequence I cannot answer it. You say, what are we doing about the rift that was created? That means I have to say there was a riff. I do not believe it. I cannot answer your question. It is what we call a false question. This is not the kind of thing you cannot get away with in a court of law, leading the witness, right? You might say, was there a division? If there was a division, is it healing in the first place? I say there is always people who want A and people who do not want A and people who want B and do not want B. This is constantly going on. I do not think you are going to find people. You will have no trouble, for example, finding people who are unhappy about women being given the to vote in 1919. You will have no trouble finding people who are unhappy about that. You will have no trouble finding people unhappy about everything. It is the way it is. People are unhappy, or they have nothing better to do. They will be unhappy about something. Right? Was there a division? Of course there was a division. Is it healing? Who cares? So what? It is over with. Cannot go back and change it, right? If I could go back to Franklin Delano Roosevelt Administration and talk to him about some of the problems that were created by his wonderful Social Security Administration and by the marvelous welfare system [inaudible] in place and say, "It is not going to work. It is going to do terrible things. You cannot build a pyramid scheme. If you take people and make them dependent upon you for their lives, it is not going to work. It is going to create terrible problems in society." If I were to say do not do it, do not force people to give you part of their money and then guarantee that you were going to support them for as long as they worked in a [inaudible] I am accustomed. My father's contribution to social security was critically small. I mean he earned $10,000 a year, big bucks, but how much did he put into social security and then how much did he take out? He lived a good long life after he retired, maybe 25 years, and all that time he is getting money and a lot of money too. There was nothing like the $300 a year that he put in. I mean, you actually think he is going to live on $300 a year? No, he cannot live on $300 a year. Where is that money coming from? Well, from the next generation. Okay, now where is your pyramid scheme? Your pyramids team will always fail, and that is what social security is, a pyramids scheme, and it is failing. I cannot do anything about it. I cannot go back and change it. There is nothing I can do. If you ask me, were there division? Of course there were division. What can I do about it? Nothing. This is not like voluntarily turning off the water. Honey, would you please turn off the water? Sure, I will go turn it off right now. This is not like that. This is the past. Cannot change it. You cannot even recognize what happened. One of the fallacies of sociology is that it actually thinks it knows what is going on. They actually think they know what is going on. Do you know any economists who are not ashamed of their trade right now? Did they predict this big meltdown? No, they did not. It seems blindingly obvious in retrospect.
SM (00:44:30):
Do you think the wall has done, and you have probably been to the wall, have not you?
DG (00:44:34):
The Vietnam Memorial?
SM (00:44:34):
Yeah.
DG (00:44:34):
Yeah. Beautiful.
SM (00:44:38):
Do you think that is done? Jan Scruggs book is all about, he thought this was the first step toward healing the nation beyond even the veterans. I go there every year for Memorial Day and Veterans Day.
DG (00:44:51):
I suppose these people have to write books to make a living. I think that is nonsense.
SM (00:44:56):
Okay.
DG (00:44:57):
You actually think building a sculpture is going to undo 58,000 deaths. Ask the wives and mothers sometimes, ask the girlfriends, I have a neighbor who had just died, whose son was killed in World War II, who pined all her life long for a lover who was killed in World War I. Ask the wives and mothers of all those people who were killed how do they feel about it? Are they going to heal? No, they are not going to heal. There is no healing. These people are dead. You cannot heal that. Get over it, kind of. Still there?
SM (00:45:45):
Yep. I am here. Let me change the tape. I got to turn my tape over. This leads into my next question, which is a question on the issue of trust whether the boomer just generation is not a trusting generation. I say this-
DG (00:46:01):
Well, why should we be? We were lied to constantly.
SM (00:46:05):
Yep. That is why I brought up because of the Watergate, the Tonkin Golf Resolution, we even saw Eisenhower lie about U-2, and there seemed to be no respect for anyone in position of authority.
DG (00:46:17):
Well, a politician's job is to lie. That is their job. That is what we pay them for. We pay them to do two things that we do not want. One is make damn laws all the time, whether we need them or not. I mean, that is what we ask them to do. We say, "Okay, we are going to elect you to make a bunch of laws," and that is what they do. They take us at our word, they make a bunch of laws. They do not know what they are doing. They mess things up. The second thing is that in order to get reelected, because half the population is really mad at them all the time, they have to lie all the time. It is a habit. They do not even mean it. There is no malice. They just lie. It is what they do. Do I trust politicians? No, I do not. Do I have any alternative? No, I do not. I cannot live in anarchic society. I cannot live somewhere else. I live here. I live now. I live in the 21st century. I cannot live some other [inaudible] or some other place. This is what I have got. They are liars, so I do not trust them. So what?
SM (00:47:23):
Do you believe what political scientists often say is that to the lack of trust in your government is actually a healthy thing, because by just-
DG (00:47:33):
[inaudible] very best of health in that case.
SM (00:47:35):
Yeah, I want to be, you are a great artist. I have been looking at some of your work, and we think of you in the free speech movement, but boy, you are one heck of an artist. I am going to eventually buy some of your works and everything, but how do the arts define the boomer generation from other generations before and after? I think I mentioned in my note, we all think of the arts at that time, we think of Andy Warhol and Peter Max's posters and all those other things during that time. But what were the messages of the artwork that took place when the boomers were young that have been ongoing since that time, and is it is the art from that period and the people that grew up in that period a reflection of the times which were rebellious and non-conformist? Just your thoughts on the art itself.
DG (00:48:31):
Well, I think art is basically something that each generation reevaluates and create for itself. Let us take an example of Vermeer. Vermeer was, during his lifetime, largely unrecognized. I do not believe he sold any paintings. He was utterly obscure until the late 19th century when one of one particular critic rediscovered him, and through a series of amusing circumstances, he became more and more prominent. Now, whereas in 1875, you could have bought girl with a pearl earring for six guilders, which no matter how you cut it is not very much money. I do not believe you could buy that painting for any sum, whatever. I mean, let us suppose if I said I will give you $100 billion for that painting, you probably would turn me down. Okay, what happened? Well, a new generation came along and reevaluated the art that had been rejected by an older generation. The same thing exactly happened to been Van Gogh. He sold, I believe, one painting during his life, but maybe none. That which was reviled by an earlier generation is treasured by a new one because everything changes. Van Gogh is not any different of course. Van Gogh paintings are absolutely utterly the same paintings that he painted, but our attitudes toward him is entirely different. Our attitudes toward our own art, there are artists who were unbelievably famous and wealthy in their day whom you have never heard of. I assure you, you have never heard of them. Sir Lawrence Alma-Tadema, have you ever heard of him?
SM (00:50:16):
No.
DG (00:50:17):
Okay. He was the most famous artist in the world in the late 19th century. He made more money than anybody ever, ever made, and you have never heard of him. All right. There you have it. Right? We do not like his art. We think it is silly. It is coming back. Be patient. But art is our own. We like it because it is ours. We do not like it because it is good. We do not like it because it addresses human issues that are eternal. We like it because it belongs to us. It is ours, of course we like it. We like our own stuff. The old Yiddish saying, "A fart has no nose." Of course, we like our own stuff. It is ours. Check back in 100 years to see what people think of entirely white paintings with long, long explanations attached to them. Check back and see what people think of crucifixes encased in plastic bags filled with urine. Check back. Let me know what happens. I doubt it is going to make it.
SM (00:51:28):
Why was Warhol and Peter Max so popular with young people, boomers?
DG (00:51:33):
Because they spoke to their generation. They are ours. You like your own stuff. Right? I personally never cared for them, but then again, I am in the minority evidently. I do not like Van Gogh either, so hey, I am a minority. I beg your pardon?
SM (00:52:00):
No, go right ahead. Continue.
DG (00:52:00):
You know like your own stuff. Our generation likes things that our generation does. The next generation is probably going to throw a lot of it away, but then they will create their own stuff that they like. I do not know what posterity is going to think of me, and frankly, I do not care. I will be dead. Do not make much money when you are dead. I do not care. I am a working artist right now. I do art for a living. I am really happy to do that. I am very grateful that I can make a living doing what I [inaudible] and I get paid for it. My brother, who is a jazz musician gets paid to play music. Boy is he happy, right? He does not say, "What is posterity going to think of me?" He says, "How can I pay the rent?" That is what I say too. I am glad people are paying me to do what I love to do, and I am glad I am recognized and that people like my artwork, and my brothers really glad that people pay him to play music and he is really glad that they like it. But neither one of us gives a hoot in hell about what the next generation thinks, [inaudible]
SM (00:53:05):
How about, you are talking about art. Let us talk about music. The music is really something that defines the boomers, and not only in terms of folk music, rock music, and certainly the Motown sound, but how important was that with respect to delivering the messages that many of the youth had and the impact they had on the generation?
DG (00:53:26):
Just like any other generation, it is theirs. That music is ours. In 1920, our music was jazz. We created it. It is ours, it belongs to us, and it really helps the grownups do not like it. That makes us very, very happy. Grownups do not like anything that their kids too. Grownups do not want their kids to become independent. Grownups want their kids to be kids, and kids want to be grownups. I like my own music. I like my generation of music because it is mine, and I do not like that new rap music. Does that sound vaguely familiar?
SM (00:54:05):
Yes.
DG (00:54:08):
I do not like that new rap music. Why do not I like it? It is just noise. It is jungle music. Cannot understand the lyrics. It is all about sex and violence. Oh, that is me quoting my dad when he first heard rock and roll. I am quoting my dad, and you know what his dad said in the 1920s when he was looking at jazz? It is jungle music. It is just noise. Cannot understand the lyrics, all about sex. It is same stuff, right? Nothing ever changes. We like our music, but it is ours. That is why we like it.
SM (00:54:46):
Do not forget, Elvis came about in the (19)50s.
DG (00:54:49):
We love Elvis. He is ours.
SM (00:54:52):
Yeah.
DG (00:54:53):
Belongs to what? He was banned by the grownups. Remember Ed Sullivan?
SM (00:55:01):
Yes.
DG (00:55:05):
Cutting him off at the hips.
SM (00:55:05):
Yep.
DG (00:55:05):
Ooh, boy did that make my parents mad.
SM (00:55:05):
I think the Doors when they were on Ed Sullivan, Jim Morrison could not say a couple words from his music either.
DG (00:55:12):
We are in charge now. Right? My father is dead. He does not get to say what kind of music I listen to anymore.
SM (00:55:20):
David, what were the books? What were the books that you read and some of your peers read in the (19)60s that you think had an influence on the early boomers?
DG (00:55:35):
Well, honestly, I would say that it was not the books that we read. It was the books that we could not read. What we cared about was being prevented from reading, for example, Ulysses or Tropic of Cancer, or Lolita. These books are neither better nor worse than the other books, but we were not allowed to read them. The Supreme Court would not let us, and we changed that about as fast as we could. The important things are what is of our generation. The important things were what we were not allowed to read. When in 1952, when the comic books suddenly disappeared, that made me really mad. I was only seven, but my favorite comic books were the horror comics and the war comics, which was cauldron, and all of a sudden they all disappeared. Well, I believe me, I never forgot that. It was not so much what we did read. It was what we were not allowed to read. That is what I think made the big difference is that we forced the whole system to allow us to read anything we wanted to read. Then we either read or did not read. It is the thought that you do not have to go out and buy Lolita, and you do not have to read it if you do not want to, but there is nothing that prevents you from doing so, whereas that was absolutely not the case in the 1950s.
SM (00:57:06):
How influential were the beat writers in terms, because in the (19)50s, lack of respect for authority or rebellious and they were even ahead of their time.
DG (00:57:18):
For one thing, remember there were not terribly many of them. Another thing is an awful lot of their work could not be sent through the mail. Howl, for example, how would you get a copy of Powell? Could not mail it. They could not buy it on the news stand. It was not in the library. How influential were these words? They were influential because they were banned. Take away the ban, the stuff is pretty boring. I mean, Alan Ginsberg, come on, talks about nothing but his dick. Really boring, but prohibit it, and suddenly become fantastically interesting. When I read Howl, it was behind closed doors, my teacher could have been fired for allowing us to read it, in fact recommended it. That made it really cool. If you just said, "Okay, we are going to assign, you have to read Howl." Come on, this is terrible stuff, but told me I cannot read it, oh, very different story.
SM (00:58:23):
I have got three quotes here from three big personalities from that period, and which of these do you think better defines the era? Obviously the Malcolm X, "By any means necessary." We saw that all the time. Peter Max, he used to always have this quote on many of his posters. "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." The third one obviously is the Bobby Kennedy quote, which is actually I think a Henry David Thoreau quote, and that is, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not?" That was very popular amongst the boomers and you still hear that quote today, but those are very popular quotes and statements and on posters back then. Is there one over the other or do they all kind of define the era?
DG (00:59:17):
They are all contentious content. The case of Malcolm X is probably, that would ring the truest, but believe me, I would rather lose the ability to understand the English language than agree with Peter Max. Politicians say what politicians say. Who pays any attention to them? I do not think I could agree very much with any of them. By any means necessary, what do you mean? You do not mean that. You cannot possibly mean that. That is a mad man talking. Besides, you always get things you do not want. You think you are doing A, in fact, you are really doing A subprime, which is extremely different. You think you are in control of your actions, but you are not. You are created by your time, you are created by circumstances. We are far, far more influenced by technology. We are far more influenced by changes in society that we do not even are really conscious of. There is some swell sounding quotes you can put out there. I like Robin Williams myself. "If you remember, you were not there." One of my favorites.
SM (01:00:49):
Yeah. Another one you hear a lot and with the 40th anniversary of Woodstock is that everybody claims they were there. They were not.
DG (01:00:55):
Yeah. There is also the number of people in Candlestick Park during the 1989 earthquake is quite surprising.
SM (01:01:05):
Wow.
DG (01:01:07):
Several million. I did not realize it was that big. There was a big football game in 1982, the great Cal-Stanford football game.
SM (01:01:18):
No, I was out there then, and that is when the musicians of the band came on the field.
DG (01:01:22):
You know how many people watched that happen? Well, I know for a fact 6,000 people sitting in that stadium, so the hundreds of thousands of people that I have talked to, it is just not possible somehow. I listened to it on the radio. I suppose that counts.
SM (01:01:42):
Actually, my sister was out there in (19)89. She worked at an insurance company, then she could see Candlestick Park when she was coming out, and she felt like she was having a dizzy spell and got down on the grass and all of her friends were going to the car.
DG (01:01:55):
Along with everybody else in the Bay Area.
SM (01:01:56):
Yeah.
DG (01:01:58):
Well I mean, the thing is that social events are far more powerful. There is things that we are not really conscious of, things that we do not really think about. People, if they are really good, will say things that reflect the time well. They will have a Henry David Thoreau or a William Shakespeare or an Ezra Hound who is capable of expressing the time, and if they are really good, they will express times that come after them. Shakespeare is holding up pretty darn well. But the whole business of, do any of those three statements mean anything to me in terms of the (19)60s? No. They are just talk. I prefer Robin Williams. Makes a lot more sense, besides it is funny.
SM (01:02:55):
Yeah. I would like you just to go in back to those days on that Berkeley campus. I am curious as I know that Mario Savio has passed away, but what has become as some of the other leaders of the movement? I know that Bettina is a professor at-
DG (01:03:15):
Well, most of them were academically oriented and continued in their academic direction. There were a few people who fell by the wayside. There were a few people like me, and a very few people like me, lives were dramatically, utterly, totally changed. Most people just afterwards got up and went right back to doing what they were doing. There were very few people, such as myself, who did not. I did not go back to school. I did not pursue my academic career. I became a printer and a graphic designer, and that would never have happened in one million years had I not been expelled. The vast majority of people who participated in free speech groups were academically oriented and continued to be academically oriented, went right on to do what they meant to do. Very, very few exceptions to that.
SM (01:04:15):
What is interesting is that Clark Kerr's name, he wrote a book that I had to read in graduate school, which is called the Uses of the university.
DG (01:04:23):
I have read it.
SM (01:04:25):
He talked all about the multi-versity, and students were challenging the corporate mentality. It has not changed at all today.
DG (01:04:32):
He wrote that before the free speech movement.
SM (01:04:36):
Yeah. I thought it was right on what he was saying, but the fifth-
DG (01:04:41):
Oh, he was treating university like a big factory. He basically said the product is knowledge and the students are what we turn out, and we have to run it like a factory. That is neither true or it is not. Does not make any difference. The university now is basically trying to run itself like a big, complicated, fancy, high-quality factory. That may or may not work. We will see. I do not know. University of California has very much formed by opinions of Clark Kerr. He had a very strong effect on administration. His career, and as did most of the bureaucrat's career by the free speech movement and the succeeding events, the anti-war movement, which they were powerless to prevent, and they were basically blamed for it. But the university is doing this fine thing and bigger than it ever was, and may become private. It may become corporate. It will keep on [inaudible] students talk.
SM (01:05:59):
Yeah. Ronald Regan obviously had a big role because-
DG (01:06:02):
Very, very big. Extremely big, and we basically him to be elected. Blame someone for that. You can blame the boomer generation for Ronald [inaudible] if you want to and be quite correct in doing so.
SM (01:06:15):
David, it has been an hour, and I know the last 20 minutes is basically responding to names of personalities in terms of period. You want to do that another time?
DG (01:06:28):
Let me take a quick look at my phone here and see how much power I have got left in it. Hang on.
SM (01:06:31):
Okay.
DG (01:06:31):
It says it is about 60 percent. Let us go through that pretty quickly.
SM (01:06:40):
Okay. I guess these can be just quick responses. They do not have to be any in depth, just gut level reactions when you hear these terms or personality. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you?
DG (01:06:57):
Nothing. Whatever.
SM (01:06:58):
Okay. Maya Lin, a very fortunate artist, quite beautiful. I like it, but I was not involved in the Vietnam [inaudible] or conflict. What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you?
DG (01:07:11):
I know they were events in which people were killed and injured and that they had quite a catalyzing effect, but that is about it.
SM (01:07:20):
What does Watergate mean to you?
DG (01:07:23):
Corrupt politicians getting caught as usual.
SM (01:07:27):
Woodstock?
DG (01:07:30):
Was not there.
SM (01:07:34):
1968, the entire year.
DG (01:07:38):
The moon. Also, pretty exciting things going on in France as I remember.
SM (01:07:44):
Okay. Of course, that was the year of the-
DG (01:07:46):
The country.
SM (01:07:46):
That was the year of the assassinations too.
DG (01:07:50):
Yeah, but that is always going on.
SM (01:07:53):
Counterculture.
DG (01:07:56):
Nice words, not very meaningful.
SM (01:08:00):
How about hippies and yippies?
DG (01:08:03):
Two disgusting people. The truly, they are people, basically the extremely irresponsible end of the 1960s. The drugs are the drug crowds.
SM (01:08:21):
Communes.
DG (01:08:24):
Never had anything to do with them really. Social experiments that did not work too well.
SM (01:08:29):
Students for Democratic Society.
DG (01:08:33):
Bunch of thinks. I have no love for them at all.
SM (01:08:37):
Then the Weathermen, were there?
DG (01:08:40):
Crazy, loony, not safe.
SM (01:08:44):
How about the Vietnam Veterans Against the War who took over the anti-war movement when SDS was gone?
DG (01:08:51):
I do not know much about it.
SM (01:08:54):
Okay. Then Tet.
DG (01:08:54):
I am sorry, Tet?
SM (01:08:58):
Tet.
DG (01:08:58):
T-E-T?
SM (01:09:00):
Yes.
DG (01:09:01):
You mean the Tet Offensive?
SM (01:09:02):
Yes.
DG (01:09:03):
Well, was it very important to them in the Vietnam conquest.
SM (01:09:11):
How about, I am going to give some names now. Jane Fonda.
DG (01:09:15):
She was really good in Barbarella. I liked that costume a lot.
SM (01:09:23):
Yeah. Tom Hayden.
DG (01:09:27):
No opinion either way. Some sort of politician if I remember.
SM (01:09:31):
Annie Hoffman.
DG (01:09:34):
The nut case.
SM (01:09:35):
Jerry Rubin.
DG (01:09:37):
Loudmouth nut case.
SM (01:09:39):
Both of them? Okay. How about Timothy Leary?
DG (01:09:46):
Very interesting guy. I think he got a little unhinged from taking too much LSD, but he was sure, right. One of those people, you got to say, "Wow, that guy is really smart. Too bad he took so much LSD."
SM (01:10:01):
Dr. Benjamin Spock.
DG (01:10:04):
Loved Dr. Spock. I actually met him once. He basically empowered a whole generation to think for themselves as opposed to having doctors tell him what to think.
SM (01:10:17):
Phillip and Daniel Berrigan.
DG (01:10:20):
Lawyer, was not he?
SM (01:10:21):
They were the Catholic priests.
DG (01:10:24):
Oh, that is right. Had nothing to do with Vietnam conflict. Very courageous probably.
SM (01:10:30):
Okay. Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew.
DG (01:10:35):
Well, Nixon was a good president and a bad man. Spiro Agnew was a fool, a joke, a disaster, and got what was coming to him.
SM (01:10:47):
Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X.
DG (01:10:51):
Martin Luther King Jr. certainly tried hard and meant well. Very good orator. Malcolm X, he did not like white people very much. Pretty open about it. It does not seem to bother white people very much that he did not like them, so he seemed to get along perfectly fine.
SM (01:11:09):
Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern.
DG (01:11:14):
I am so glad they did not get elected.
SM (01:11:18):
All right. LBJ and Robert McNamara.
DG (01:11:22):
Well, LBJ was the most competent second in command, was unfortunately thrust in position first in command, at which he did not do a very good job. He really tried hard and he meant well. Robert McNamara, I do not have any opinion about it.
SM (01:11:40):
How about the Black Panthers, which includes Bobby Seal, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Angela Davis, that group.
DG (01:11:49):
Dangerous opportunists.
SM (01:11:52):
Okay. Daniel Ellsberg.
DG (01:11:56):
New York Times reporter. What was he?
SM (01:11:59):
He was the Pentagon Papers.
DG (01:12:01):
That is right. Courageous, I suppose.
SM (01:12:05):
How about Ronald Reagan and Hubert Humphrey?
DG (01:12:10):
Well, Hubert Horatio Humphrey was, Humphrey was kind of a silly guy. Ronald Reagan was very-very popular, very much loved, basically catapulted into power as a reaction against all the things that were going on in 1960s. I cannot comment on his presidential policies. I do know that under his administration, like many that had gone before him, which quite nearly obliterated human race but I do not think that is particularly his fault. I will [inaudible] judgment. Check back in 50 years. I will let you know.
SM (01:12:45):
George Wallace.
DG (01:12:48):
Governor of Mississippi?
SM (01:12:50):
Mm-hmm.
DG (01:12:56):
The man who tried to make history stop just because he did not like it.
SM (01:13:02):
Barry Goldwater.
DG (01:13:04):
Would have been an awfully good president. I would like to run history back again and try him. Be really different.
SM (01:13:13):
The Equal Rights Amendment that in the end failed.
DG (01:13:16):
The ERA?
SM (01:13:19):
Yes.
DG (01:13:19):
Well, it just shows up [inaudible] politician.
SM (01:13:26):
How about the Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, some of the, Shirley Chisholm, the female leaders of the Women's movement.
DG (01:13:35):
The female spokesperson.
SM (01:13:37):
Yes.
DG (01:13:38):
There is a big difference between the leader and spokes.
SM (01:13:41):
I think Betty Friedan was a leader.
DG (01:13:43):
Well, maybe. But I would say they basically articulated what a lot of people could not articulate themselves as well, and they spoke for a whole huge generation of women who had basically been getting a pretty raw deal, and for the most part still are.
SM (01:14:01):
What do you think of Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter?
DG (01:14:09):
Jimmy Carter was a great, or I should say is a great fool. I do not know. Gerald Ford, I would have no particular opinion about him.
SM (01:14:16):
Of course, you have already talked about Ronald Reagan. How about George Bush Sr. who said the Vietnam syndrome is over, and Ronald Reagan, of course, he said that we were back from where we were before the boomers.
DG (01:14:32):
You have to remember my opinion on politicians are not high.
SM (01:14:35):
Yeah. Right. The final two of individuals here are Bill Clinton and George Bush, the last president. When I have asked people do who they are really define who the boomers are, I get amazing responses. That they really are symbols of the boomer generation. I do not know what your thoughts are on Bill Clinton and George Bush, but.
DG (01:15:05):
Well, my opinion of politicians is not enhanced by George Bush. The Clinton Administration basically continued policies and created policies that have come home to roost now. Seemed like a really good idea to do all the things that went on during his administration, but now everything's totally fallen apart. I am not going to blame them for it. Politicians are necessary. They are necessary for society, and ours is our democracy has worked pretty darn well, thank you. I am not going to complain too much, I guess, but I do not like politicians and I do not like what they do. I think it is a waste of time and money, but I can think of a whole lot worse systems, so I am not really complaining. Our current president is trying hard and doing the best he can. It turns into a horrible mess the way it always does, but I like the democratic process. I do not think we get any worse leaders than anybody else.
SM (01:16:17):
How about John Dean?
DG (01:16:19):
Who?
SM (01:16:19):
John Dean.
DG (01:16:19):
[inaudible]
SM (01:16:23):
Pardon?
DG (01:16:24):
You are going to ask me about politicians, I am going to tell you I do not like them.
SM (01:16:26):
Oh, okay.
DG (01:16:28):
Leave the politicians off your list.
SM (01:16:30):
Very good, very good. When the best books are written, which is probably after we are gone, the best books are often written on any subject are 50 years after an event. What do you think the history books will say about the boomer generation once?
DG (01:16:47):
Having Written one, very long one myself, I can tell you what they think. They think it was swell. I had a great time myself. Have some other person who did not write a book or some other person [inaudible] different book.
SM (01:17:03):
Yeah, your book I thought was great. I read it a long time ago. And of course when we brought you to Westchester, it was great because you sat in front of student government, if you remember.
DG (01:17:11):
I do, and quite clearly.
SM (01:17:14):
That was a historic night. You do not realize. That was the very first night that Dr. Oliaro was there. He was the new vice president who had just come in from-
DG (01:17:23):
I remember meeting him.
SM (01:17:24):
Yeah-yeah. Now he is up at Fresno State.
DG (01:17:28):
Oh really?
SM (01:17:28):
Yeah, he is pretty big up there. He is the Vice President of Student Affairs at Fresno State. He was very impressed with you because he-
DG (01:17:37):
Really?
SM (01:17:37):
Yeah. Because he sat in the back. He did not expect it in a student government meeting, and of course I only had one other person ever came in there. But what was the overall reaction of your book and the students that you spoke to?
DG (01:17:54):
The book has not sold terribly well, but it is sold steadily. I suppose I should not complain. It is very long. One of the things about my book is that everyone else who writes a book has to refer to my book because my book has got everything in it. The manner in which I wrote is direct quotes from historical characters that were there at the time. You are pretty much going to have to accept that. There is very little about the facts that you could disagree with. My interpretation for the facts, of course are my own, but it is very hard to argue with an eyewitness account. You might not like what the person says, you might say the person had a myopic view because they were after all right in the middle of it, but you cannot say that it did not happen the way they said. At least the way they said is what they believed. You perhaps have read the book by Bernal Díaz called The Conquest of New Spain, where he has a foot soldier under Cortes. He writes the book about being a foot soldier under Cortes and taking over him Mesoamerica. You have to say, "Well, he was a soldier." I mean, his father was not even literate, but he was there. He was there with Cortes.
SM (01:19:17):
Right.
DG (01:19:17):
Fought, and cannot say, "Well, your interpretation of it is flawed and your attitude towards the Native Americans is certainly unpleasant. You were not a very nice man. You did hard things," but on the other hand, you have to say, "Well, you were there. You are telling me what you believe happened, I really got to pay attention to that." that is what my book did. You might like it, you might not, but you have to accept that I was there.
SM (01:19:51):
Yes. Yeah. I remember reading and I was underlining things. I ruined my books sometimes. I underlined them. I have actually bought another one so it is not underlined, but I have to underline so that I can actually go back to your book. And even though it has been over 10 years since I read it, I can read those lines and I can come back and remember some of the things around it, and that is who I underline. I have done that for years. What do you think the lasting legacy of that free speech movement will be?
DG (01:20:21):
Oh, I do not know.
SM (01:20:23):
Particularly in higher education, which I think really loves to forget their past.
DG (01:20:28):
Well, I think that it is permanently changed the city of Berkeley. I think it has had a tremendous change on the university's population. Basically, people go to Berkeley on purpose. They know it is going to be an exciting place, and they do not go here on purpose too. The people that do not want to go to the University of California are the ones that go to [inaudible] They are the ones that are afraid of the University of California. The ones that go here know that it is going to be a really interesting place with a lot of interesting things going on.
SM (01:21:10):
Good.
DG (01:21:10):
Now, it has been quite a while, [inaudible] so on and so forth. But I would say people come here on purpose. They do not come here by accident. They do not come here because it is safe. They come here because it is going to be exciting, so it is a different kind of school.
SM (01:21:31):
Now. That is the kind of school that I like. Well, I guess that is it, David. This has been great. Now the one thing I do not have is a picture of you and I am coming out in the-
DG (01:21:40):
Okay. Yeah. Hey, could you send me a transcript of it?
SM (01:21:44):
Yes. I am doing this to everybody. I have got so many transcripts to be done, but once the transcript is there, we can edit and so forth. But I am going to need to get a picture of you. I remember Chrissy Keeler, I think her name is. She is from San Francisco. I am interviewing her next week. I may be out in the spring with my camera to drive around, take pictures of people that I have interviewed so I may pop over to your place, but otherwise I will need a picture eventually. Not right now, of you.
DG (01:22:17):
I can mail you one.
SM (01:22:19):
But I think I will be out in San Francisco in April, I think, and I might just drive over and say hi to you and take your picture.
DG (01:22:25):
All right.
SM (01:22:26):
You have a great day. Keep doing that great artwork.
DG (01:22:29):
I am working on it.
SM (01:22:31):
Yep.
DG (01:22:31):
Right. Thanks. Have a great day. Bye.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with David Lance Goines
Contributor
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Goines, David Lance, 1945- 2023 ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Artists; Calligraphers; Typographers; Civil rights movements—United States--20th century; Goines, David Lance, 1945--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
David Lance Goines is an artist, calligrapher, typographer, printing entrepreneur, and author. Goines was a Classics major at the University of California at Berkeley. While at Berkeley, he participated in the Free Speech Movement, which ultimately led to his expulsion. He returned to UC Berkeley for a period but left once more to become an apprentice as a printer in Berkeley. Goines founded the Saint Hieronymus Press in Berkeley and has worked there ever since. He won an American Book Award in 1983 for <em>A Constructed Roman Alphabet</em>.<br /><span><br />David Lance Goines died in Berkeley, California, on February 19, 2023, at the age of 77.</span>
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2009-11-19
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.104
Date Modified
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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82:41
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d01c78979a6950ca89df1732559549b2.jpg
3ad84f24c1561a76c5d7c5f33c11f954
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ada3be9b38cd77c8da1982e51793d24e.mp3
fb547a1e19123d6c2bd46c5ae496fabe
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
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Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
1997-07-14
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Harry Gaffney
Language
English
Digital Publisher
BInghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
112:37
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Harry Gaffney is an educator, administrator, and Vietnam War veteran. He currently is the CEO of Strategic Leadership Management. Gaffney graduated from St. Joseph's University with a Bachelor's degree in English and Villanova with a Master's degree in Educational Administration. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":769,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0}">Harry Gaffney is an educator, administrator, and Vietnam War veteran. He currently is the CEO of Strategic Leadership Management. Gaffney graduated from St. Joseph's University with a Bachelor's degree in English and Villanova with a Master's degree in Educational Administration. </span>
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Civil Disobedience; Kent State University; Students for a Democratic Society; Anti-War Movement; Weather Underground; Lyndon Johnson; Robert McNamara; Women's Rights Movement; Decolonization; Black Panthers; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Drug Culture; Nonviolence; Class Privilege; Civil Rights Movement; Communal Movement; Woodstock; Folk Song Revival; Black Power; Separation; Malcolm X."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Civil Disobedience; Kent State University; Students for a Democratic Society; Anti-War Movement; Weather Underground; Lyndon Johnson; Robert McNamara; Women's Rights Movement; Decolonization; Black Panthers; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Drug Culture; Nonviolence; Class Privilege; Civil Rights Movement; Communal Movement; Woodstock; Folk Song Revival; Black Power; Separation; Malcolm X.</span>
Subject LCSH
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Educators; Gaffney, Harry--Interviews
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
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Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
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Title
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Interview with Harry Gaffney
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Gaffney, Harry ; McKiernan, Stephen
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/wav
Subject
The topic of the resource
Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Educators; Gaffney, Harry--Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Harry Gaffney is an educator, administrator, and Vietnam War veteran. He currently is the CEO of Strategic Leadership Management. Gaffney graduated from St. Joseph's University with a Bachelor's degree in English and Villanova with a Master's degree in Educational Administration.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
1997-07-14
Rights
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In copyright
Language
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eng
Type
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Sound
Identifier
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.105a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.105b
Date Modified
Date on which the resource was changed.
2018-03-29
Is Part Of
A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included.
McKiernan Interviews
Extent
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112:37
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/831bfd23ede586509462f8a0f15e2e81.jpg
a03288889bbb12d2ac6cb29550171ab5
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c457856abb4886eee1e189755a557783.mp3
33539fa8828344bea906e0dd1a56de65
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Audio interviews
Title
A name given to the resource
McKiernan Interviews
Description
An account of the resource
Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Binghamton University Libraries
Language
A language of the resource
English
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright.
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Date of Interview
2010-02-01
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Mark Rudd
Language
English
Biographical Text
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, anti-war activist and he was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to \"fight for imperialism\" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6539,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, and anti-war activist who was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to "fight U.S. imperialism" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968.</span>
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Digital Format
audio/mp4
Original Format
The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data
2 Microcassettes
Material Type
Sound
Interview Format
Video or Audio
Audio
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
175:20
Keywords
<span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Westchester University; Bayard Rustin; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Segregation; Utopia in Four Movements (film); Decolonization; Nonviolence; Black power movement; Howl (poem); Jews; WWII; Germans; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; George Jackson; Students for a Democratic Society. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":0,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Westchester University; Bayard Rustin; Baby boom generation; Kent State; Segregation; Utopia in Four Movements (film); Decolonization; Nonviolence; Black power movement; Howl (poem); Jews; WWII; Germans; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; George Jackson; Students for a Democratic Society. </span>
Subject LCSH
Peace movements—United States; Authors; Weather Underground Organization; Political activists--United States; Rudd, Mark--Interviews
Accessibility
Copy/Paste below:
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Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>.
Rights Statement
Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly.
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Mark Rudd
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: REV
Date of interview: 1 February 2010
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
SM (00:00:03):
Testing one, two, testing. I found that Mark, before I get with the questions that even the boomer administrators who run universities today have a tendency and a fear of going back to what was.
MR (00:00:18):
Right.
SM (00:00:18):
Because there is a symbol that it is disruption, and anyways.
MR (00:00:28):
One question is not... was not Westchester State at one point a historically black college, or am I confused?
SM (00:00:32):
No-no, just the reverse. Back in the early (19)50s and right into the (19)60s, there were very few African-American students at Westchester University. In fact, it has become a very sensitive issue at programs dealing with Dr. King in the past couple years because more and more African-American students who were at the university during that, that timeframe had to live off campus.
MR (00:00:58):
Right.
SM (00:01:00):
They were not allowed to live in residence halls. And now obviously that is changed a lot, and we have probably one of the largest African American populations in the state system with almost 10 percent of our campus being African American students.
MR (00:01:15):
10 percent?
SM (00:01:17):
10 percent.
MR (00:01:18):
And Westchester... Westchester is a largely African American town, is not it?
SM (00:01:22):
Oh, no. Westchester is mostly a white, conservative, middle to upper class town. It is the 25th richest area in America.
MR (00:01:34):
Well, what is the... There were demonstrations in around (19)63, (19)62, (19)63, and (19)64 in Westchester. Kathy Wilkerson writes about them in her autobiography.
SM (00:01:53):
I have not read her autobiography. I know there were protests at Westchester. Of course, Bayard Rustin is from Westchester, and Bayard was a graduate of Henderson High School. He was a star athlete on the football team, but he was not allowed to even go to the movie theater.
MR (00:02:13):
Right.
SM (00:02:13):
And he had to sit upstairs and he was arrested as a young high school student before he went off to Cheney. And we are talking now the forties and the early (19)50s. And so historically, it has had some major issues. And the most recent issue was the naming of Bayard Rustin High School, which became a national issue because he was going to be named in the third high school. And there was a group of people that wanted to prevent him because first off, he was a former communist. Secondly, even though they did not say it was because he was gay. And there are a lot of reasons, and I was involved with about 50 or 60 other people and trying to prevent this name change from going back to some other name. And so that the community itself, the university is much more progressive than obviously the community. In some sense, the community, even though it has become more liberal in some of its administrators, I mean politicians, it is still got a long way to go in terms of social issues.
MR (00:03:24):
Right. What is the historic black college? Is it Lincoln?
SM (00:03:28):
Oh, no, the historic black college, there is two of them. Lincoln is the private school, and that is only about 25 miles from Westchester University and then Cheney University.
MR (00:03:39):
Oh, Cheney.
SM (00:03:40):
And that is this campus of a little over 3000, and it has been struggling to survive. It has had a lot of problems financially with weak administrators and fewer students coming, but they have just hired a president the past two years. It is keeping it going. They have been hiring some pretty good administrators, and it will always be there because it is one of the historic schools.
MR (00:04:05):
Well, I hope so. It is coming up February 1st. Is today February 1st?
SM (00:04:11):
Yes, it is today.
MR (00:04:12):
This is a good place to start. February 1st, 50 years ago, 1960 was the day that black students from the historic black college in Greensboro, North Carolina sat in at the Woolworths lunch counter. And that was the beginning of an almost spontaneous uprising of black students from historic black colleges, from all black colleges in the South. Their role in the civil rights movement often does not get acknowledged much, or at least it does. People know about it, who know about the history, but most people who do not know about the history do not know much about the Civil Rights Movement, how it was organized or how it happened, and they think it was all Martin Luther King's dream.
SM (00:05:09):
It is interesting in the interviews that I have had so far, when we talk about the (19)50s, those Civil Rights events, and then very early in the early (19)60s, (19)60s and 61, how much was hidden? So people that people did not know, and so everything looked like things were okay in the (19)50s, but in reality they were terrible.
MR (00:05:32):
Right. It was not the golden era.
SM (00:05:34):
Mark, what-
MR (00:05:35):
My wife was watching Mad Men and freaking out over the, remembering the position of women at that time.
SM (00:05:42):
Oh, yeah. Well, definitely. You were young. Mark, when did you first recognize or know what was going on? What happened February 1st? I-
MR (00:05:54):
Think it was the demonstrations and the protest and civil disobedience of black people in the South. I must have been on February 1st, 1960. I was 12 years old, and I looked at... Saw these images of young people sitting in and it just stopped me. I had to pay attention.
SM (00:06:24):
So you were sensitive very early on?
MR (00:06:27):
Well, not hypersensitive, considering that I did not know any black people and personally, I lived in an all-white suburb of Newark, New Jersey and New York City. And I would not call myself hypersensitive. I still went about my 12-year-old things, but I always was the kind of person who paid attention to current events. I loved current events.
SM (00:07:04):
Well-
MR (00:07:05):
I was the kind of kid who I always read magazines and newspapers, and there was something... I think it was growing up in the shadow of World War II. Current events.
SM (00:07:20):
Were you one of those individuals that read The Weekly Reader that had all the political news for elementary school kids?
MR (00:07:26):
My parents had Time and Life. That, I assume. I would read the newspaper. I read the New York Times every day in high school, but we could get it at Study Hall and I get it for free and something. I read... No, my Weekly Reader when I was a little kid, I suppose.
SM (00:07:55):
I kept all mine. I still have them in stacks.
MR (00:07:58):
Oh, so you were that kind of person also?
SM (00:07:59):
Yes. And in fact, I, they are treasures to me because when John Kennedy was running for president and all those things. I have them in my Weekly Readers. Great pictures. Most people threw them out. I kept them.
MR (00:08:13):
How old are you?
SM (00:08:14):
Oh, I am 62.
MR (00:08:16):
Oh, we are the same age.
SM (00:08:17):
Yep. (19)47. We are in (19)47. December 27th of (19)47.
MR (00:08:24):
Well, I am six months older then.
SM (00:08:27):
Well, we are in that same group. I was at Binghamton when you were at Columbia. I knew all about what you were doing when I was a student there. I want to ask you-
MR (00:08:36):
I did not catch that you were at Binghamton?
SM (00:08:39):
Yes. I went Binghamton University.
MR (00:08:40):
Right-right-right.
SM (00:08:41):
It was Harper College. In fact, last week I interviewed Richie Havens and I asked Richie a question. I said, Richie, "Do you remember your first college concert?" And he said, "Yes." And then I said, "Well, I remember you when you came to my school. It was Harper College, the Arts and Science School at Binghamton." And he said, "That is unbelievable, because that was my first concert." That was 1967.
MR (00:09:07):
That is wonderful. Well, I have a dear friend who is the same age as us who went to Harper. I would not know her... Oh, it is Marsh. Her name is Linda Marsh.
SM (00:09:18):
Linda Marsh.
MR (00:09:19):
She was from Western New York State and she went to Harper.
SM (00:09:25):
Yeah. Well, it is a great school.
MR (00:09:26):
And then later they, several key Columbia people who had reported us. Immanuel Wallerstein.
SM (00:09:31):
Oh yes.
MR (00:09:36):
Terry Hopkins. Several other people jumped over to Harper.
SM (00:09:45):
Yeah. Well, it is a great school. One of my former professors, Dr. Kadish is still there. All the rest of them have either retired or died.
MR (00:09:52):
I just met a guy named Melvyn Dubofsky, labor historian, who did his whole career there. Do you know him?
SM (00:09:59):
That name rings a bell.
MR (00:10:01):
Yep. Yeah. I just met him the other day.
SM (00:10:05):
I have a question. This is a very important year coming up. This is the 40th anniversary of the Remembrance of the Tragedy at Kent State.
MR (00:10:12):
Yes.
SM (00:10:13):
And I know that if Allison Krause's sister and Alan Canfora are organizing the Remembrance event, hoping lots of people come back and they got these tapes for... They found out the real truth about who gave the order to shoot. So there is a lot of things that are going to take place at this year's event. But in your book, I think I have told you, your book is superb, right? I have underlined it. I have read it. I was rereading my underline. So I am basing my questions on a lot of the things you have written about for more explanation. You talk about Kent State in your book. How about-about had one of the strongest SDS groups.
MR (00:10:52):
Yes.
SM (00:10:52):
Even though when the tragedy at Kent State happened, people were saying, "Kent State of all places?"
MR (00:11:00):
Yes.
SM (00:11:00):
What was it about Kent State University that was different than the others with respect to SDS and its activism?
MR (00:11:06):
Well, I do not know if I can fully answer that. See oftentimes I use Kent State as an example of a state school that was in revolt. So we tried to portray it as not different, but I actually think it was some kind of conjunction of its late location in a demographic. It mostly took the children of the upper working class and the lower middle class from northeastern Ohio. Akron was the biggest city and that was the tire maker. That was-
SM (00:12:04):
Yes.
MR (00:12:04):
-the place where tires were made. And so you had this whole industrial union kind of an ethos. Then you had Jewish communists, Jewish kids of Communists and social backgrounds from Cleveland. Quite a few there. In fact, that the chapter had a... I think one wrote about this, but one of the oddest aspects of the shooting was that three out of four of the victims, the people who died rather, were Jewish on a campus that was only three or 4 percent Jewish.
SM (00:12:58):
Yes.
MR (00:12:58):
And in the chapter, the SKS chapter, it was not a majority Jewish, but it had a few of the leaders were Jewish. So you had this kind of mix that I always thought the people there were very serious. They did not have a lot of money. And even at Columbia, the chapter was not made up of really wealthy people, but they were not like elitist kids, but they were very serious. On the other hand, I have been back several times, twice actually in the last decade, and I have noticed that it is a very cold place, meaning that only a minority wants to acknowledge that the crimes of the shootings-
SM (00:13:54):
Yeah.
MR (00:14:00):
-and a lot of people still to this day say that the victims deserved it.
SM (00:14:07):
Yeah. When you just-
MR (00:14:09):
Not sure I answered your question.
SM (00:14:12):
Yeah, it does. I think the whole thing, this tape, you are, are you aware of the tape that is going to be played?
MR (00:14:17):
Yeah. Yeah. I am in touch with Allen.
SM (00:14:19):
Yeah. Well, I tell you, it is going... Are you going to be able to come back?
MR (00:14:24):
I do not know. I have not figured it out yet.
SM (00:14:27):
I would love to see you. I would love to meet you because-
MR (00:14:29):
Are you there going to be there?
SM (00:14:30):
Yeah, I am going to be there. I have been there the three of the last five years. Because I feel it is important. I took students at a high university back in the fourth remembrance year when Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden were there, and Julian Bond and Holly Near. And in those days, there was a more... We want to make this an educational experiences for all the college students in Ohio. So I worked at Ohio University, and I brought students back, and we learned the importance of communication. And when you do not communicate, this is what happens. And that is been lost. But I thank the Lord we had the Allens and the [inaudible] and Allison Cross's sister, working to make this continue.
MR (00:15:20):
One year... When was that? I think it was (19)95. They asked me to, if I would play the role of one of the four in the march and the role of Allison Krause and her mother was there, and we walked together and I held the first half hour of the vigil. That is done all night.
SM (00:15:52):
Yes.
MR (00:15:52):
I stood with flowers that they gave me playing the role of Allison Krause for the first half hour. And I put them down on, this was on the spot where she was killed. I put them down on the ground. Then the next morning around noon, the parking lot was reopened again. And I went to that spot, and all the flowers had been run over by cars.
SM (00:16:18):
Oh, geez.
MR (00:16:18):
It is a cold place.
SM (00:16:23):
Yeah. Last year I was at Jeff Miller's spot, and what you do, you have a half hour shifts and it goes all throughout the night.
MR (00:16:33):
Yeah.
SM (00:16:34):
And I was there for a one to 1:30 for Jeff. It was very kind of chilly too. But I was at that spot this year, you know, hold the candle.
MR (00:16:43):
Yeah.
SM (00:16:44):
Yep. And then of course, the march every year, the candlelight march where you walk around the campus and everything with the candle lights.
MR (00:16:52):
It is a good thing.
SM (00:16:54):
Yeah. I think it is important as a member of the more radical segment of the Vietnam generation, and again, I am talking more about the activists now or the organizers... I know how important Che Guevara and Mao Zedong as Sunni Binghamton, people were walking around with those red Mao Zedong, little booklets and everything. They were very popular. But what was it about she Che Guevara and Mao Zedong that really turned on the anti-war group?
MR (00:17:25):
That was the idea of the heroism of liberation. And we live in a country where the politicians are anal and are corrupt and are [inaudible] mouthed, and they are an embarrassment. So is not it wonderful to have some notion that somewhere in the world people are heroic and altruistic?
SM (00:18:01):
Well, some of some people that I have talked to in my interviews, and again, as I do more and more interviews, I get more and more different responses. And then I use some of those responses in my upcoming interviews. One of, not so much about Che Guevara, but when they talk about Mao Zedong, they call him a murderer. And because of the cultural revolution and all the millions that he killed, and so they have a tendency to attack the activists of the (19)60s as "Why would they be linked to a murder?"
MR (00:18:30):
Well, see, the idea of revolution, especially armed revolution, is that it is a smaller amount of violence than the great amount of violence the system in China, they had brutalism and they had up until the 20th century and terrible poverty and degradation, and this is true still in a lot of parts world, including China. But the idea that you could create an aesthetic and that revolutionary violence to do it is a great heroic. We thought we were living through a heroic moment in history. And violence, if you have to do violence, is like a war. It was a war for liberation. Obviously... It was incredibly utopian to think that a whole society could be remade along, egalitarian and [inaudible]. And myself, I will probably not make that mistake again. But at the time, we were incredibly idealistic. I thought that the world could be remade. Sam Green, the filmmaker who made the Weather Underground movie made now has a new movie called Utopia and Foreign Movement. And it is about, four examples of utopianism of better or worse. And his view is that there is no more utopianism. And that is a problem too.
SM (00:20:38):
Well, that was one of my questions coming up is when you use smaller amounts of violence as opposed to the larger amounts of violence, do not you think that backfires? Dr. King he always professed non-violent approach and I think you mentioned in your book that was more of a gradualist approach, and-
MR (00:21:02):
But yeah, I have come around to it to a nonviolent strategy too, of advocating a nonviolent strategy in all chains. Because I do recognize the inherent problems with violence, demonizing the enemy, and creating the... You still there?
SM (00:21:26):
Yep. I am here.
MR (00:21:27):
And creating the cycle of revenge, et cetera. So I have come to that. But no, there were in the (19)60s, remember that was the era. This is one of the most difficult things to convey to young people. That was the era of decolonization in the world. And many of the decolonization struggles were violent. Now in India was not violent. They had a great leader with a great philosophy, but the results did not look so good at the time. China, which had a violent revolution, seemed to be made making much greater progress than India, which was still a class society in the (19)60s, and still is. Although it does have the largest middle class in the world, which I guess improves the life of 150 million people, it has still got about a billion people who are in terrible poverty. So again, we were utopians. We thought that China was a better model than India. We thought that Cuba was making very great progress and still Cuba is a great model in some ways. I mean, if one asks the following question, "Where would you rather be at the bottom of society in Cuba or in one of the American neo colony, the Central America. Who has a greater opportunity for life, a Cuban [inaudible] or a Honduras [inaudible]?"
SM (00:23:08):
So what was what is really amazing is when you study the history of the (19)60s and (19)70s, and you look at Dr. King and study the comparisons between him and Thurgood Marshall, Dr. King's nonviolent approach was a step beyond Thurgood Marshall's gradualist approach and getting laws passed. And then when Stokely challenges Martin Luther King telling him that your time has passed, or Malcolm X in a debate with Bayard Russin tells him the same thing that your time has passed. I am not sure if Stokely really realized that only a couple years before in America, nonviolent protests was pretty radical.
MR (00:23:50):
Yes. Yes.
SM (00:23:50):
Compared to the Thurgood Marshall trying to get laws passed.
MR (00:23:53):
Good thing. The Black power movement was saw itself as part of the global liberation movement. Personally, I think I was a supporter of black power. It was a challenge as a white person. It was a challenge to the whole white movement, how we would respond to the notion of black liberation, black autonomy. Now of course, I see it as a terrible black power, as a defeat for the black freedom, but that is in retrospect.
SM (00:24:25):
Yes.
MR (00:24:25):
Time we were caught up in the notion of global liberation.
SM (00:24:31):
One of the other things that, and I caught a lot of things in your book that I was rereading it, prepping for the interview, is we had Tom Hayden on our campus about seven years ago, and Tom came to speak as part of our activist days, and we had a dinner prior to the program. And in that dinner, he wanted to know if the student's government association had power. And then they said yes, and they gave them their definition of power. And Tom shakes his head, and that is not power. And yet, and then he went on and gave a lecture of the difference between power and empowerment. And he was basically saying, "You are not empowered." And you state in your book that the protest movement, Columbia, was not about student power empowerment, but it was about fighting the American imperialism abroad in Vietnam and racism and the economic conditions of blacks at home in America. Is there any conflict here? Tom says you students need to feel empowered, but you were not after empowerment.
MR (00:25:39):
No. Well, I am not quite sure. I mean, I would not necessarily disagree with Tom. I mean, what is empowerment? But I mean, when one confronts the problems of the world, one becomes empowered. And conversely, if you are given, I do not know, are given or somehow get power within an institution, does that even confront the bigger problem? I do not know. I cannot answer that. It is complicated for my little head.
SM (00:26:22):
Well, one of the questions I was going to, from the questions I gave you over email about the importance of the beat, and I did not know that Richie Havens was a beat.
MR (00:26:29):
Yeah. Very important. Mean, they were true cultural rebels. And I was aware of them from a very early time in my life. I would say 13, 14, 13, 14. They were cool.
SM (00:26:48):
Yeah. Well, I was looking at the play for the poem, Howl, which was in the 1950s that was banned in many schools. And of course, the poem expresses the anxieties and the ideals of a generation alienated from mainstream society. But some of the quotes, "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving, hysterical, naked, dragging themselves through the Negro streets, had dawned looking for an angry fix. Angle headed, hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of night." Very prophetic words. And obviously they had an impact, and they were a precursor to what I consider the activism of the (19)60s.
MR (00:27:37):
I think so. I believe so. For me, they were. You know? I lived in the suburbs, but I knew that there was something wrong about the suburbs that they had. They had forgotten a lot of light. Newark emptied out to create the suburb that I lived in, and my family even moved from Newark. But there is something left behind there. A lot of people left behind there. It was literally white flight that when he talks about Negro streets, that those are the streets that my family fled.
SM (00:28:19):
One of the things that I think is just fantastic in your book is, and again, I keep going back to your book, it is the scene where one of the people you looked up to at Columbia, one of the older students, was it Dave Gilbert or one of them, talked about what happened in Germany and comparing it to America. And how we cannot let that happen again. We cannot let what happened that happen again to the Vietnamese people, what happened to the Jews in Germany and in Europe.
MR (00:28:49):
Well, I noticed that I called the first chapter "The Good Germany."
SM (00:28:52):
Yes. That Could you, because again, this is a different venue. People may not have read your book, but could you talk a little bit about that experience and your feelings on this, and that is really a lot about who you are and what you became.
MR (00:29:07):
Yeah. I was a Jewish kid growing up. I was born two years after the end of World War II growing up, thinking about it, aware of the Holocaust. My father had been in World War II. He missed the fighting in the Philippines by a few months. But I saw the World War II was the great divide, the great heroic good war, and we beat the Nazis. And so the question then was, who were these Nazis? What were they up to? And I guess that reality, the reality of World War II was so bloom, so large that I felt I had attention. And one of the questions about World War II-
MR (00:30:03):
...attention. And one of the questions about World War II was where were the German people? Questions still exist. Just last night I read an article in the current New Yorker about Dresden, the rebuilding of Dresden, and the consciousness of the people of Dresden. They see themselves as victims of American air power, firebombing, total destruction. And yet they know nothing about their own country's participation in the genocide. It was not talked about. It is now 60 some years later, and the question of the of role of the German people in the rise of Nazism is still on the table. So at that time there was a phrase called "Good German", meaning somebody who willfully ignored or denied or seen what was happening. Now the phrase the "Good German" has lost its metaphorical power. Have you tried it on some young people lately?
SM (00:31:24):
Well, I left the university in March, but...
MR (00:31:28):
Try it sometime and you will find that by and large people have no idea what "Good German" means. When we were growing up, everyone knew what an ironic metaphor.
SM (00:31:40):
Right.
MR (00:31:41):
And so we always asked where were the Germans, the good Germans? Where were the German people? Same when I found out about the crimes of this country, I did not want to be a "Good German." Quite simple.
SM (00:31:57):
That is real important for young people. And actually I am a firm believer that people evolve over time. So I think older people can change too. I am one of those people who believes that. But I think this feeling that you really bring out in the book also, the we did not know mentality of silence and denial and ignorance. And I think sometimes ignorance on purpose. And you saw it in Vietnam with the terrible atrocities, and certainly we know them now that what happened. And we continue as Americans to forget that it is not only the soldiers that we are losing, American soldiers, but it is the citizenry of the nation that we are in that we are killing. And it continues today.
MR (00:32:38):
Absolutely. There is a memorial to 50,000 American dead in Vietnam. But there is no memorial to the millions of Vietnamese that we killed. And it is the same way now in Iraq and Afghanistan. If they are not Americans, they do not count. But it comes down to a very mundane level. Americans go and shop at Walmart and they see all this stuff that is pretty damn cheap. And they do not ask the question, "Why is this stuff so cheap? Who's making it? How much are they being paid? What is the environmental cost? What is the cost of the family? What is the cost in social dislocation in China?" That is a willful...
SM (00:33:36):
You talk about Malcolm X a little bit in the book in several sections, and one of the areas is when Malcolm saw the connection between the people's struggles in Vietnam and the Far East and what was happening in America with African Americans and people of color. And you felt that was why he had to be killed. When you look at some of the other individuals, not only of Malcolm, but Dr. King, Fred Hampton, even George Jackson, who was really a powerful speaker within the prison community, and even to some sense... I know you do not like a lot of the liberals and Bobby Kennedy, but he kind of changed in his last two years of his life. Do you see a connection that they all had to really go because of their stands on things?
MR (00:34:26):
Obviously in retrospect, it is hard to miss those connections. I might add too, that anytime a black person advocates armed action, they are going to be a [inaudible], they are going to be killed or jailed.
SM (00:34:43):
Getting back to...
MR (00:34:49):
Malcolm X's slogan was by any means necessary. And that eventually he had to be killed. That the government killed dozens of Black Panthers because they were advocating revolution. Blacks with guns. It was very scary.
SM (00:35:07):
Certainly Dr. King went against the Vietnam War and some people thought that was his death sentence.
MR (00:35:13):
Yeah-yeah, exactly. One year to the day, one year before his murder, he came out publicly, now. Absolutely.
SM (00:35:24):
I do not know if you were ever a Bertrand Russell fan. But I am a big Bertrand Russell fan because I think a lot of people from our generation read him as a good role model as an older person. And he lived a life that really stood for something. In the beginning of his biography, and this was brought up by one of my interviews when I asked the person, "What would you like your legacy to be once you are gone?" And this is a very well-known activist just like you from the (19)60s. And he said, "Well, I just want you to read the first paragraph in Bertram Russell's book because that is what I want to be remembered for."
MR (00:36:06):
What is that?
SM (00:36:07):
And here it is. He starts it out with three passions, simple, but overwhelmingly strong, have governed my life, the longing for love, the search for knowledge, and the unbearable pity for the suffering of mankind. These passions like great winds have blown me hither and thither in a wayward course over a deep ocean of anguish, reaching to the very verge of the spare.
MR (00:36:34):
That is good writing.
SM (00:36:37):
And that is Bertrand Russell. And now I have been reading... Actually it is his autobiography. It was written in three parts. But this is the part from the time 1872 to 1914. And we all know right up to the time he died, he was the same guy he was when he was a young guy. Your thoughts on those three, because you are dealing with love, you are dealing with knowledge...
MR (00:37:05):
Knowledge and justice. Well, the love part is hard. One tries for love. I would not have defined it as my goal because it either comes or does not. I have been lucky in my life. I have been surrounded by love. But I grew up in a family in which there was much love. And so I do not see it as abnormal. I see it as the human condition or as an inspirable human condition. And everybody could go for it. So I am not different from anyone else. But I once heard Ramdas, Richard Albert, say that he learned from his guru in India, that the goal of life, love everybody and always tell the truth. And so I bring it down to two and I would not separate them because what is justice? So I think knowledge and justice are pretty good. Love everybody and always tell the truth.
SM (00:38:33):
Yeah.
MR (00:38:34):
Sometimes you have to dig find the truth though.
SM (00:38:36):
Yeah. When you responded to the question of the overall impact on the boomer generation, you were very good in letting me know. And others have said the same thing, "You cannot generalize 78 million Americans." But I love the way you divided it. The comments that you made was, "We helped the Black Freedom Movement. We helped them in the war in Vietnam, and we fought for the equality of gays, women, disabled, and fighting nuclear power." Do you see any negatives? And the reason why I bring this up is the drug culture, women being treated as objects and certainly violence, which not necessarily the violence that we always talk about with SDS. I am talking about what we saw in Watts and what we saw in the cities during that time. Cities going up exploding.
MR (00:39:32):
Well, yeah. I think that every deviation from non-violent struggle has been negative. And that would include spontaneous nihilistic uprising and saying it would also include calls for arm struggle. In retrospect, every deviation that I made away from non-violent struggle and democracy, too, was a terrible negative and had terrible results. So that is one big negative. Human condition, though has plenty of negatives, discrimination, and exploitation. And I probably participate. I write about this, the privilege that I have as a male within the movement led me to exploit women. But I think all that is inevitable and it will continue. But the big lesson that I take is the necessity to hold the nonviolent gratitude. Howard Zinn died last week.
SM (00:40:59):
Yes, I know.
MR (00:41:00):
And I remember back in 2000... I guess Susan Danburger of NPR asked him, she asked a lot of smart people on the radio, "What is the contribution of 20th century to the 21st?" And I remember him saying the idea of non-violent political action. That really got me. He chose one thing. And that was the idea of nonviolence. And so I reduced it down to one thing, which encompasses, incidentally, love too. Because in nonviolence you cannot dehumanize your enemy to the point where it is okay to kill him.
SM (00:41:59):
Mark, I do not know if you saw, but on Democracy Now, they had an excerpt from Howard's last speech at Boston University.
MR (00:42:10):
Oh no, I did not hear it.
SM (00:42:12):
Yeah. And I have got to get a transcript of it because he passed away within two months. But basically what he was saying... Let me turn my tape here over. He was talking to a room full of college students at Boston University, and he said, " I was a pilot in World War II and I dropped bombs on people and I killed people. I was told to do so. I did not know those bombs had chemicals in them that would last long after the war ended. But when the war ended, I got a letter in the mail." And the letter in the mail came thanking him for his service. And all World War II veterans got this letter from one of the secretaries in the government. And basically it said, "Thanks for helping us to create a better world." Because they had defeated Nazism and, of course, the Japanese. And what is interesting... Then he went on for the next 10 minutes at unbelievable words about making the world better. Then he went on to talk about all the killing that has taken place in the world since World War II. He talked about Vietnam. He talked about Iraq, Afghanistan, and he talked about all the other conflicts and wars and weaponry and so forth. So he was basically wanting young people to reflect in a lot of different ways. But it was the way that only he could say it because he is very good with the words. So I just want to mention that.
MR (00:43:52):
Oh, yeah.
SM (00:43:53):
Because I want to get a transcript.
MR (00:43:59):
Howard's whole career has a lot of integrity and he uses his personal experience. He used his personal experience really well, and he held to his principles. He is a great model.
SM (00:44:15):
You had also made a comment, and I thought that was pretty good though, where you said "The impact of boomers on succeeding generation is they hate us. We have all the good jobs and we have all the good music and sex." What is interesting, we had a couple of panels at our school when I was there between the boomer generation and Generation X students. Actually, we filled over 500 in the room for both programs. And two things came out of those programs when Generation Xers were talking about boomers. Number one, they did not like them. Just like you say, "They hate us." They are tired of hearing about what was the nostalgia.
MR (00:44:57):
Are you writing a book about boomers?
SM (00:45:01):
And then it... Huh?
MR (00:45:03):
Get off it already?
SM (00:45:03):
Huh?
MR (00:45:05):
Get off it already.
SM (00:45:07):
Yeah. And then the second part was, "I wish I had lived then. I wish I had the causes that they had. I wish I had something to fight for."
MR (00:45:19):
Right. Right.
SM (00:45:20):
There was nothing in between.
MR (00:45:22):
No, not only that, but that they do not see the causes now. And that is understandable too, why they do not see the causes now. Because I did not see the causes now until I blundered into a mass movement. And that mass movements make things easy. You are surrounded by people who think like you and you have a critical math. Now it is a lot harder. You have to be out there on the fringe.
SM (00:45:55):
That is important because we all know when a college student goes off to their first year of school that peers are the most important influence, even more than faculty members on them.
MR (00:46:06):
Right.
SM (00:46:07):
And obviously that was true with you.
MR (00:46:09):
It was easy for me, comparatively speaking. To join the movement was easy because the movement was big and growing.
SM (00:46:19):
Could you describe two terms that I think are very important in your book? And that is functional rationality and substantial rationality. That really got me, because McNamara fit the first one so perfectly.
MR (00:46:37):
Like you figure out your goal and then that is your goal and McNamara's functional rationality. But the deeper rationality involves an evaluation of both the means and the goals. Do the ends justify the means? Do the ends justify the means? No-no.
SM (00:47:10):
Well, I had mentioned three slogans to you in my email and one was the Peter Max, and you had mentioned that you did not think...
MR (00:47:22):
But that was not for me. That was for a lot of others.
SM (00:47:25):
Yeah.
MR (00:47:26):
I thought that one was some... That is all right.
SM (00:47:28):
Would you say, and I just added one, would you say "Truth to Power" may be another one that is very important? And are there other slogans that you think more define the...
MR (00:47:37):
"Truth to power" is a pretty good one. "Truth to Power" was not that [inaudible] slogan.
SM (00:47:45):
Well, I know Dr. King used it.
MR (00:47:47):
Yeah-yeah. No, that is great. Let us see. Logan. Logan. Well, "By any means as necessary" was the slogan. But it is not one that I hold to now.
SM (00:48:02):
Right.
MR (00:48:14):
We powered to the people of Logan. All the SDS cards up until the end... The slogan of SDS was "Let the people decide." And that was consistent with our ideology of participatory democracy. And when the Weathermen took over, we still let that one go and we substituted the Panther slogan "Power to the People." "Power to the People" sounds good, but it is a bit simplistic cause people think all kinds of things and there is all kinds of people. But people are not unitary, that is for sure.
SM (00:49:07):
The media oftentimes, and you brought up even your comment to me, the media has made you think this way and make students think this way. But you also state in your book that many of your peers have gone on to be very successful in life. Doctors, lawyers, heads of companies and teachers. You name it. And oftentimes the media likes to portray the generation or as one that gave up on their beliefs and their ideals and really have not contributed at all to America. Your thoughts on that?
MR (00:49:40):
No. When I wrote that... I think you are quoting from the epilogue of the book. And in that I am actually talking about the people who came back for the 40th reunion of the Columbia strike. And many of them were not successful. But that does not mean that they have lost their ideals or their motive or motivation. Not at all.
SM (00:50:05):
Yeah. Cause I think...
MR (00:50:05):
Remember Columbia was a middle class place or an upper middle class place or a ruling class place. And the idea of it was that you go there and then you take your place at the top of society. That is still the idea. And so it is very hard to get away from class privilege.
SM (00:50:25):
Well...
MR (00:50:25):
Very difficult.
SM (00:50:28):
When I was reading your book, and then of course even knowing about you even before your book came out, that being underground must have been very difficult for you. Because you have even said... I have seen some interviews when you were on CSPAN, and that you are a person of ideas. You want to be doing something, you want to be helping people. But hiding, you cannot do anything.
MR (00:50:51):
Right. I think that I recognized that very shortly after I went under. I recognized that on May 4th, 1970, about a month after I described sitting on a park bench in Rittenhouse Square in Philadelphia. But I think that it is interesting that even though I ostensibly gave up all my privilege, my class, I still actually retained quite a bit, even in the underground, even when I was a nobody. I got a job at a factory in the Kensington and Allegheny, K and A neighborhood. And in that factory, I started at the bottom as the laborer. And it was not long before I was promoted to be in charge of a warehouse. Why? Because I had communications, so. That the black guy who started on the same day with me, did not have. He did not speak English the same way I did. He could not communicate with the Jewish manager. I could read. He could not.
SM (00:52:11):
You had to use a fake name though, did not you then?
MR (00:52:15):
Oh, yeah. I did not put down that I had gone to Columbia University. I made up some high school somewhere and said that I had not graduated and that was it.
SM (00:52:25):
When did you know you had to go from one place to another because you went different parts of the country?
MR (00:52:34):
We always wanted to stay a couple of jumps ahead of the FBI. So if there was a security breach of any sort, we would [inaudible] a car or somebody ratting. That was the word. Okay. Help us rat it on me being in Santa Fe. Then I could not be just one step ahead. Had to be two steps ahead. So that necessitated moving. So whenever there was a serious security breach, then we would move. And the security breach would not necessarily be about where we were. But it could have even been the previous place.
SM (00:53:25):
This is really...
MR (00:53:27):
Because you do not want to live on the edge. You do not want to live believing that at any moment the FBI could come knocking on your door.
SM (00:53:36):
Do you feel you are still being watched even though you have...
MR (00:53:38):
Nah.
SM (00:53:38):
They are not watching anymore?
MR (00:53:43):
How many million people do they have to watch?
SM (00:53:44):
Yeah.
MR (00:53:45):
Well, nah. That is just paranoid. You cannot live paranoid. That is the main thing.
SM (00:53:56):
Well, I think your life is an example though of what Dr. King always said. And even though people might say, "Well, you cannot compare Mark Rudd to Dr. King." But Dr. King always said that there is a price one pays for one's beliefs.
MR (00:54:09):
Not sure I played the price. I never missed out on a [inaudible] in my life. I never missed out on an opportunity. Had Easter in a public school. I have not paid any particular price.
SM (00:54:29):
One of the questions that I asked again is the question of well, healing. And you responded "Well, I would not sit down with George Bush." And mainly what I was referring to in that question about a problem of healing was I wanted to explain it more to you on the phone. I had taken students to Washington DC to meet Senator Muskey. And the students came up with the questions because they were curious about the 1968 convention. And they thought he was going to answer questions about possible second civil war, tearing the nation apart and everything. And so they came up with a question on healing. And I think what I sent to you was misinformation. I was really referring to the 15 percent of those who were in the anti-war movement, who were against the Vietnam War and the Vietnam Veterans themselves. And that is who I am talking about just between those two groups.
MR (00:55:29):
I never accepted the division description of my generation that the vets thought one thing and the anti-war people thought another. I never accepted that. For one thing, the vets were incredibly anti-war because so many vets were drafted. And also because the anti-war movement itself was so powerful that the idea of being against the war had gone into the military. So you find vets are just as split as the general population. My best friend is a marine vet, and he and I have much more in common than guys from his old unit that he occasionally sees. Because some of them have not gotten wise to the ways in which they were used. So I do not accept that generational division argument at all.
SM (00:56:43):
I think I sense this only because I go to the Vietnam Memorial on Memorial Day and Veterans Day every year. I have done it for 14 years. And I see the slogans and the dislike for Jane Fonda and when Bill Clinton came to the wall and how they were booing him. And even though it is supposed to be a non-political entity, there is still a lot of politics around there. You can sense...
MR (00:57:07):
That is the faction. Personally, I have only gotten that a few times in my life from this. And I have been in touch with hundreds of vets. I taught Vietnam vets. And for the most part I feel accepted by the vets as a veteran of the same Goddam war.
SM (00:57:32):
Good point.
MR (00:57:38):
Maybe I am different. But I would say that of my encounters with vets, maybe one or 2 percent have been hostel. There is a fraction of people who wanted to have everything that they were involved in, all their pain and suffering and loss justified. And that is understandable. Then you have got people who I would say, for the most part, vets are very cornered about the whole thing. And Gil put it, in a way, they murdered a lot of people. Those people did not ask them to come to Vietnam. They did not ask to be murdered. Somebody killed three to 5 million people. So somebody's got to feel bad about that.
SM (00:58:26):
I think one of the things that you bring up here... When I go to the wall, I look at the wall and I see not only Vietnam Veterans, I think of the 15 percent who protested the war, who were so sincere and genuine in their anti-war protest that I can see what you are talking about, Mark, about the links between Vietnam vets and those who opposed the war. Oftentimes it is those who did not give a darn about the war. And those are the ones that sometimes vet has had more problems with.
MR (00:59:01):
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Also, there is a lot more to be said on the question of the vets. My general view of the vets is somebody murdered three to 5 million people and that the vets were forced into that position have a hard time dealing with it, very difficult time dealing with it. They are reconciling their own behavior. So sometimes they get angry and they say, "Oh, well it is your fault." And other times they get angry at themselves. They drink and they wind up on the streets or they beat their wives or whatever.
SM (00:59:48):
When you were probably doing your teaching in New Mexico and were back in the system again and you saw President Reagan come into power in 1980, 81 and in his opening speech, and I have the quotes. But he said a...
SM (01:00:03):
And in his opening speech, and I have the quotes, but he said, "America is back."
MR (01:00:07):
What? Is back? Yeah.
SM (01:00:08):
Yeah. He said, "America is back. The military is going to-
MR (01:00:11):
Reagan was a horrible disappointment to me. And it was worse when he was reelected in (19)84 and I realized that he was going to be around for a long time. And remember in (19)80, when he was elected, I was barely aware of the war in Central America. But by (19)84 when he was reelected, I had become aware of the murder that our country was perpetrating in Central America.
SM (01:00:41):
And then of course, George Bush Sr., George H.W. Bush said that the Vietnam syndrome is over, when he became President.
MR (01:00:49):
Right, right. And in a way, he was right, because maybe he was a little premature in (19)91, but by 2003, the Vietnam syndrome was definitely over.
SM (01:01:03):
Yeah. You even bring up Vietnam on a university campus, even the word Vietnam, it just rings all kinds of "Uh-oh. Here we go again." I-
MR (01:01:13):
Yeah. Right. Well, I was talking to somebody, [inaudible], and said, "People do not know when Vietnam was. It could have been before World War II.
SM (01:01:26):
These are just quick-
MR (01:01:27):
And Vietnam is 45 years ago. And when you think of when we were growing up, 40 or 45 years ago before that was World War I.
SM (01:01:36):
Yes.
MR (01:01:36):
Meaning that it is in the dark ages.
SM (01:01:42):
Yeah. In fact, I have got the book Woodstock Census that came out in (19)79. I do not know if you have ever heard of that book.
MR (01:01:47):
No.
SM (01:01:48):
Well, I am reading it right now, because one of the authors is a big, well-known person not far from where you live. And I want to get ahold of him, because he co-wrote the book in (19)79. And they were basically saying in (19)79 that people are looking at the Vietnam War like we looked at World War II.
MR (01:02:08):
Right.
SM (01:02:08):
And that was 1979. These are just really quick ... I know you do not like generalities, but just a quick response here-
MR (01:02:17):
But tell me, before you get onto that, who wrote that book?
SM (01:02:20):
Oh, hold on. Can you hold on one second? I will go get it. Hold on.
MR (01:02:23):
Okay.
SM (01:02:24):
Yep. Okay. Are you still there?
MR (01:02:54):
Yeah.
SM (01:02:55):
Okay. The book was written by ... let us see, where is it here? Written by Rex Weiner.
MR (01:03:04):
Never heard of him.
SM (01:03:05):
Rex Weiner. If you go into the web, you will find out he is a big writer, written a lot of novels. And he has been a writer for a long time. And he ran away to Haight-Ashbury in the Summer of Love and brought home a souvenir case of hepatitis, studied the effects of drugs at NYU, dropped out to be a bum in Europe and became a staff writer for the East Village Other. And his best (19)60s moment was watching Timothy Leary fix a lawnmower. And the other author, her name is Deanne Stillman. S-T-I-L-L-M-A-N. She might be married now, so I could not find her, but I want to try to get ahold ... It is very good. And your picture is in here. He breaks down the sections and there is pictures at the beginning of each section. And there is a picture of you at Columbia in the one section.
MR (01:04:08):
Oh, well that is nice.
SM (01:04:08):
Yeah. And if I find it here, bear with me as I am looking, there is a section on drugs, there is a section on heroes, and I think that is where you are. Your picture is in the beginning of the heroes.
MR (01:04:22):
Yeah, but see, just a comment on me being a hero. I was really a media creation. I was one among many, many, many thousands of people who took risks and took leadership positions. And yet, I was still chosen by the media.
SM (01:04:46):
Yeah. And the media-
MR (01:04:46):
But if you want to pursue that question, take a look at Todd Gitlin's book, The Whole World Is Watching. It was written in the late (19)70s. He interviews a guy by the name of Michael... oh God, why am I blocking his name? He is a professor of peace studies. He studies oil. Margot, what is Michael's ... the professor, his wife was in peace development. Mike ... you know who I mean.
Margot (01:05:24):
Clare.
MR (01:05:26):
Mike Clare. Michael Clare. L-A-R-E. Michael Clare was in SDS. Michael Clare. [inaudible]. He is a writer for The Nation on oil policy. Good guy. He was involved in Columbia SDS. And he talks at length to Todd Gitlin in his book, The Whole World Is Watching, on the Mark Rudd phenomenon, of how the media created me as a leader. And so if these people list me as a hero, then what they have done is they have fallen for that.
SM (01:06:09):
Yeah. Well, I know that we had a period of time in the late (19)80s where we were asking students who their heroes were. And my generation, the heroes were people like Dr. King, John Kennedy, you name it. But that the generation Xers were talking about, "My parents are my heroes."
MR (01:06:35):
Oh, that is nice.
SM (01:06:36):
Or my uncle. So even within that generation, there was a change of how people looked at people and their-
MR (01:06:43):
Remember, it is the decline of utopianism.
SM (01:06:46):
Right. Sometimes their teacher. I know a person that was very influential in your life was when you were a student. I forget his full name. Potter?
MR (01:06:58):
Paul Potter?
SM (01:06:58):
Yeah. Paul Potter. You mentioned that his speech had such an effect on you.
MR (01:07:05):
Yeah.
SM (01:07:06):
And obviously there were other things that had an effect on you, but you seemed to really emphasize that one. What was it about that peer of yours that really had an effect on you?
MR (01:07:16):
How smart he was. I never knew him. I met him only in 1982. He died in 1984. I did not know him personally. But you read a speech like that, and it is true of the whole generation of the leaders of SDS, Tom Hayden and David Gilbert, a lot of others; these people had really understood what was going on. They had uncovered the truth, and they were a lot smarter and more relevant than the professor.
SM (01:07:51):
I think Rennie Davis fell in that category too, did not he?
MR (01:08:02):
I see the rise of a new student movement very slowly, but you do not have graduate students around. And the graduate students are important, because they know more.
SM (01:08:14):
Right. Just very quick thoughts here, and they do not have to be in detail. How did the (19)50s make the (19)60s?
MR (01:08:25):
Well, I think there was all this built up repression. But the biggest single thing, which we do not talk about enough, white people do not talk about enough, is the Civil Rights Movement. The Civil Rights Movement shook up this country. And that is got to be acknowledged. And so I will answer your question with one answer; the (19)50s was the rise to a mass movement, of the Civil Rights Movement.
SM (01:08:51):
How did the (19)60s make the (19)70s?
MR (01:09:01):
Well, there was a loosening of everything in the (19)60s, and then the (19)70s was kind of anarchic and nihilistic in a sense, or individualistic. And then that gave rise to Reagan and the 30 years of right-wing rule that we have had.
SM (01:09:22):
Yeah, that is absolutely going right in there. How did the (19)70s lead to the (19)80s and beyond? Yeah.
MR (01:09:28):
And one aspect of Reaganism, though, which should not be forgotten, is that the Civil Rights Movement unleashed black political power, especially in the South. And that caused the Democratic coalition to disintegrate. And the Democratic coalition had held the segregationist white South in the Democratic Party. So when there was a realignment in the (19)70s that led to Reagan, that entire racist wing of the Democratic Party split and went over to the Republicans. And we have still got that now. So people could say, "Oh, it was the excesses of the (19)60s," but at its real political core, it was a realignment in which the racists went to the Republican Party. I think that is got to be repeated about 500,000 times.
SM (01:10:26):
Mm-hmm. You talk about the biggest mistake that you ever made, obviously in the book, and I have seen you interviewed on C-SPAN and some of your other interviews, that was the breakup of SDS. And for obvious reasons, because SDS was the strongest anti-war group probably in history. But the question I want to ask is you were a personality, and so was Bernadine Dohrn, and so was some of the other leaders of SDS. How much does personality play within the leadership of a student group, not only as a plus, but as a minus? Because would not you say here the personalities played a negative? Because-
MR (01:11:12):
No. I think it is less personality than it is cliques. I think political cliques are the negative, and we had a clique. And the clique had lots of different personalities in it, but the clique was powerful enough to take over a big mass organization like SDS. So I think people have to look out for cliques, rather than personality.
SM (01:11:47):
You do not have to go into detail, but you consider that the biggest mistake of your life?
MR (01:11:51):
Oh, absolutely.
SM (01:11:51):
Yeah.
MR (01:11:52):
Going off SDS, are you kidding? Well, I thought I was doing one thing, but I did the opposite. I thought we were creating the beginning of a mass revolutionary movement among white people to join blacks in this country, and instead what we were doing was we were doing the work of the FBI for them. Absolutely the biggest mistake of my life, at the age of 22.
SM (01:12:19):
Well, idealism is one of the important things, and the people that you have mentioned who were in SDS, you were very proud of your intellectual strengths.
MR (01:12:33):
Too proud.
SM (01:12:33):
And the idealism. But you also mentioned in your book something; you said, "Idealism's downside is we believe our own ideas because we had them and we wanted them to be true. Do not believe everything you think."
MR (01:12:50):
Right.
SM (01:12:51):
That is important for students to learn. I have seen this in my working relationships with students. This is a very important little quote in your book, because I am idealistic, and I think you are too.
MR (01:13:04):
And so is [inaudible]. Especially the anarchist kid.
SM (01:13:07):
Right. Could you explain that in terms of learning a little more in detail?
MR (01:13:14):
Well, see, it is really more of ideology. People need to have an ideology; a set of beliefs that explain the world. It is sort of like a religious impulse, and once you get that ideology, then you think you have got everything figured out. One current ideology is anarchism, and I find a lot of good kids are stuck in this belief that we do not need governments, and that everything would be great if we just got rid of the government. And it is a totally religious belief. It does not represent reality. And I am not sure, for real learning to take place, you have to keep a certain skepticism, and even the skepticism in your own beliefs. Even scientists make this error. There is various research fallacies. I do not know the names of them, but they have to do with the idea that since you have a hypothesis, that the hypothesis must be true. But then scientific method holds that you have to do everything you can to disprove your hypothesis. So we need that same kind of cold scientific view of our ideas, and skepticism, and the belief that no ideology can ever describe reality.
SM (01:15:03):
One of the things-
MR (01:15:03):
The Buddhist precept that no belief structure is true, including Buddhism.
SM (01:15:15):
Your thoughts on just after the Vietnam War ended in (19)73? Well, the peace talks, and then (19)75, the helicopters go off the compound there in Saigon, which is now Ho Chi Minh City. Just your thoughts on what followed. And when you read the history books, what followed was an increase in the communal efforts, more increase in spirituality, and more going inward as opposed to working together as a group. So more of an individualistic-
MR (01:15:49):
We should have kept the organizing going, in retrospect. The right wing did keep the organizing going, but our generation eventually took right wing tower under George W. Bush. So the left did not keep the organizing going. That was our big error. Now we have got to come back to it and we have got to teach young people how to do it, how to organize.
SM (01:16:18):
Well, Richie Havens said that when a lot of people look at Woodstock, they just see this bunch of kids listening to great music. But he really reveals that half of the audience were not kids. There were a lot of parents with children there, and there were actually a lot of people in their 40s and 50s there. So that is something that is never told of the 400,000. But he says that Woodstock was much more than people truly understand, because it was an awakening that the kids of the (19)60s, who had been so hidden, were now being seen. And so he brings that up. And he also talks about the musicians of the late (19)50s and early (19)60s that were in Greenwich Village. And I know you knew all about this, and you were inspired by the Beats, that the Bob Jones of the world, and even the Richie Havens and Peter, Paul and Mary and that group, they could have been recognized a lot earlier, but they were not because they were kind of hidden.
MR (01:17:21):
Well-
SM (01:17:22):
And that the music kind of exposed and brought them out.
MR (01:17:25):
[inaudible] the folk song revival was that it happened at all. No such thing is happening now. But the folk song revival happened from the late (19)40s on into and through the (19)60s, and it was a lot of product of the left wing. And I think it was important, because it brought social consciousness to so many people. But in the current musical environment, you have nothing like that.
SM (01:18:04):
One of the things that I can vividly remember when I was a student at Ohio State, because I was in grad school in (19)71, (19)72 there, and of course I was at Binghamton up to that point, is I saw the separation between black students and white students really happening around that 1969 timeframe. And that was because the African-American students said, "I am not going to be protesting the war in Vietnam. We were going to concentrate on the issues here at home with the plight of African-Americans," ala Black Power, Black Panthers, and so forth. And even at Kent State, you cannot find an African-American student at that protest. They were told to not be there. And that basically-
MR (01:18:49):
That might have been in part a result of Black Power too, the idea of separation.
SM (01:18:57):
But what is really sad is when you were going underground at Ohio State in (19)71 and (19)72, you walk into the Ohio Union and black students did not want anything to do with white students. And they were having their dances in one section, and the other group was having their dances in the other section. And of course, the Afro hairdos were there. There was a lot of stuff happening. And one of the things that was so important about the (19)60s was a sense of community, of coming together, because so many of the movements came together. And all of a sudden, you are seeing these splits.
MR (01:19:33):
Right. Well, Black Power was a powerful thing. There was recently a book written about it called Columbia versus Harlem, or Harlem versus Columbia, by Dr. Stefan Bradley, a young black historian. And he talks about the black movement at Columbia. We were really only united with them for a moment. That moment was a very powerful moment.
SM (01:20:03):
I have only got a couple more questions, then I will be done. You mentioned a couple of the people that you read. I have it right here. I know there were three different books. What were the most influential books, Mark, in your life, that you read as you were young or that you have read since?
MR (01:20:25):
The Grapes of Wrath, the autobiography of Malcolm X, and oddly enough, a rather obscure book from 1974 called Labor and Monopoly Capital by Harry Braverman. [inaudible] Review Press. The guy is a genius, an economist who himself was a [inaudible] maker machinist. And he analyzed the nature of the current economy, which was the computerization, the automation of the workforce in which the average skill level of labor is driven down. That is the whole point of computerization, is that machines take over labor, and so you do not have to pay as much, and you do not need a skilled labor force. And that then defined my whole career as a teacher at a community college, which was, "Why is there so much failure? It is because the economy does not need highly skilled workers." But anyway, as long as we are listing books, I am going to list as my third Labor and Monopoly Capital by Harry Braverman. Have you ever seen it?
SM (01:22:07):
No, I have not, but I am going to go look it up.
MR (01:22:09):
Oh, do look it up. It is an amazing book.
SM (01:22:13):
Where do you put your book? Because I think your book should be in a classroom, should be required reading. You made a question to me, "How am I going to reach young people with this book project?" Because as mentioned, you have been somewhat frustrated. I firmly believe in youth as long as the adults do what they are supposed to be doing in terms of teaching. And if I was a professor in a classroom in the (19)60s, I would have your book as required reading. I mean-
MR (01:22:40):
That is wonderful.
SM (01:22:41):
No, I would.
MR (01:22:41):
It is coming out in paperback, so maybe it will.
SM (01:22:44):
And I know some professors who teach (19)60s courses, and I will certainly recommend to them. I do not know if the chair of the department will finally okay it, but I think it is just a fantastic book. And the two books that I wanted to know if you had actually read was The Greening of America, by Charles Wright.
MR (01:23:03):
I did. I did. And unfortunately, he did not prove right.
SM (01:23:09):
Yep. And the other one was The Making of a Counterculture, by Theodore Roszak.
MR (01:23:13):
I never did. Do you like that one?
SM (01:23:16):
I liked it. I wanted to interview him, but he is not well, so he says, "I cannot." He is not doing too well. So those are important. I also felt that Harry Edwards book, Black Students, I do not know if you have ever read it?
MR (01:23:27):
No. But Harry Edwards is an important guy.
SM (01:23:30):
Yeah, he is. But he is the one professor who defined the (19)60s activists more than any other. He broke them down into revolutionaries, activists, militants. And I know he also did what we call anomic activists, which are people who will just create havoc for no reason at all. You can just pay them and they will do it. They do not care. And it was in Black Students, we read that book, it was required reading at Ohio State, and I brought him to Westchester and I got a first edition signed. So it was pretty good.
MR (01:24:13):
Great.
SM (01:24:15):
If you had to live your life all over again, would you do it?
MR (01:24:17):
The same way?
SM (01:24:20):
Yeah. What changes would you do in your life, besides-
MR (01:24:22):
Non-violence. And organizing. Much more organizing. [inaudible] nature. And I think I probably would have gone earlier into the Democratic Party.
SM (01:24:37):
What do you hope will be your lasting legacy? Say that again, because the tape just-
MR (01:24:47):
The idea that mass movement, social and political, is possible, and that it takes organizing. And to not make the same mistakes that I did, which was not organizing and going into self-expression, which is what armed struggle is.
SM (01:25:05):
And I am going to end the interview with just... I had a whole list of names. I am not going to go through those names. But I wanted just your thoughts on four people, because they were really not liked by the anti-war movement, but I want hear it from you. And the four people are Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Spiro Agnew, and what is the fourth one? Oh, and I just wanted to know a little bit more of your thoughts on Kennedy and McCarthy, because you call-
MR (01:25:36):
Okay. Kennedy and McCarthy, at the time, we thought were diversions from the revolutionary movement, which were growing. And [inaudible] back into the system. We did not believe that the system was going to survive. We thought that there would be an end to this sham democracy that we have. So in 1968, when there was an election, SDS's line was, "Vote in the streets." So we were kind of utopian anarchists at the time, and we wanted to ignore those people. I have never hated anybody in my life as much as I hated Lyndon Johnson. To this day, I despise him. I hate Lyndon Johnson more than I hate even Richard Nixon and George W. Bush. I worked for Lyndon Johnson as a high school kid, and I should have written more about this part, but I went to some demonstrations for Johnson, and I felt totally betrayed. And whatever happens to you when you are coming of age, that is very important emotionally. So I hated Lyndon Johnson worse than I hated any President, before or since. Now, rationally, I know that that is not possibly true, that Johnson was a continuation domestically of the New Deal, and there was a lot of good stuff. But I still hate him. Even Nixon, who was the embodiment of evil, I did not hate as much as Johnson. Spiro Agnew was a joke. I loved Spiro Agnew because he was so obviously unqualified to be anything. He might have been qualified to clean toilets someplace, but that is about it. And I loved Agnew because he was such a joke, and he was so corrupt that they had to fire him. They had to get him to resign before Watergate played out. So did that answer your question?
SM (01:27:55):
Yeah. And obviously I had forgotten Mr. McNamara, the best and the brightest, which Kennedy brought in.
MR (01:28:01):
Well, I never liked McNamara. I still did not like him when he wrote his so-called apology back in the (19)90s. And I hated him in [inaudible], and I despised him on the day he died.
SM (01:28:17):
And finally, the women who were the leaders of the women's movement, Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan. But I know you guys were criticized, as many people in the Civil Rights Movement and the anti-war movement, by being sexist, putting women in secondary roles. And I know I have interviewed people that were in SDS that were female, and they verify that. Just do you have any second thoughts?
MR (01:28:46):
I have a lot of respect for the founders of the women's movement. And even somebody like Robin Morgan, who eventually turned me into the FBI, I have respect for her ideas. I read her book in 1989, the Demon Lover on the sexuality of terrorism, and I learned a lot. But you might take a look at my essay, K and Me.
SM (01:29:19):
Oh, okay. I was reading some of those essays. J and Me. All right. Very good. And I guess that is it. Are there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to?
MR (01:29:33):
No-no. That was good. That was a great interview. Please keep me informed of the progress of your book.
SM (01:29:39):
Oh, I will. And I really hope I can meet you. I want to get pictures of you, because I am doing that with each of the interviews.
MR (01:29:46):
Okay. I can send you any of the pictures in my book.
SM (01:29:51):
Yes. If you could send those, but-
MR (01:29:53):
No, wait. You have to ask for one or two.
SM (01:29:55):
Okay. Yeah, I will do that. Are you doing any lectures on the East Coast?
MR (01:30:01):
Let me see.
SM (01:30:03):
Lectures on the East Coast?
MR (01:30:03):
Let me see. There is one that is under discussion now in Pittsburgh.
SM (01:30:14):
Oh, okay.
MR (01:30:14):
In March. But watch on my website, I will announce it there.
SM (01:30:18):
I hope you can come to Kent State.
MR (01:30:21):
Maybe, we will see. I am involved in a political campaign here, reaching a climax in May, but we will see if there is a good role for me out there, I will come.
SM (01:30:33):
And you are still teaching, are not you?
MR (01:30:36):
At the moment? No. I taught last semester at UNM, University of New Mexico, but at the moment, I am not teaching.
SM (01:30:45):
Well, Mark, thank you very much for spending the time.
MR (01:30:49):
Sure. Good luck, Steve.
SM (01:30:50):
Yeah. And I admire what you did because you stood up and I knew about you when I was your age. You were the same age when I was at Binghamton, and I supported what you are doing. It was just the weatherman part, well, the rest is history, I guess. Mark, you take care and carry on.
MR (01:31:08):
All right.
SM (01:31:09):
Have a great day.
MR (01:31:12):
You too.
SM (01:31:12):
Bye.
(End of Interview)
Dublin Core
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Title
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Interview with Mark Rudd
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Rudd, Mark ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
Subject
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Peace movements—United States; Authors; Weather Underground Organization; Political activists--United States; Rudd, Mark--Interviews
Description
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Mark Rudd is a political organizer, author, math instructor, and anti-war activist who was part of the Weather Underground group. Rudd attended Columbia University and became a member of Students for a Democratic Society in 1963. He got his commitment to "fight U.S. imperialism" by watching the revolutionary movement in Cuba. Mr. Rudd was a leader of the campus protests at Columbia University in April 1968.
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Binghamton University Libraries
Date
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2010-02-01
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In copyright
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eng
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Sound
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.106a: McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.106b
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2018-03-29
Is Part Of
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McKiernan Interviews
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175:20
-
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/efb84b136d8c0b7a18619a5064b67a1b.jpg
8ee4fff5e8c89121a26e72e0aebba09f
https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/de8f3becaa0742ac004963425c1ae962.mp3
b412091c52063b8781534edf748d5ea9
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Format
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Audio interviews
Title
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McKiernan Interviews
Description
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Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br />
<h3>The McKiernan 22</h3>
<div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div>
<ul>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li>
<li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li>
</ul>
Creator
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Stephen McKiernan
Publisher
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Binghamton University Libraries
Language
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English
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In copyright.
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Date of Interview
ND
Interviewer
The person(s) performing the interview
Stephen McKiernan
Interviewee
The person(s) being interviewed
Ed Sanders
Language
English
Biographical Text
Ed Sanders is a poet, author, musician, and activist who grew up in the state of Missouri. He attended the University of Missouri and New York University where he earned his Bachelor's degree in Ancient Greek. After college, he opened the Peace Eye Bookstore in New York City and started <em>Fuck You: A Magazine of the Arts</em>. Allen Ginsberg, Ezra Pound, and Dylan Thomas were all early influences as Sanders tried to bridge the concerns of Beat Poetry and the counterculture of the 1960s. He is the author of many collections of poetry where he received several honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts and the Guggenheim Foundation. Sanders has written many books of prose, a non-fiction book, <em>The Family</em>, and published a bi-weekly newspaper, the <em>Woodstock Journal</em>. He is the founding member of the satirical and subversive folk-rock music group, The Fugs.
Digital Publisher
Binghamton University Libraries
Duration
Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.)
77:17
Keywords
<span>Cuban Missile Crisis; WWII; Beatnik fashion; Beatnik; Beats; Allen Ginsberg; Jack Kerouac; Gregory Corso; William Burrough; Herbert Huncke; Ferlinghetti; Gary Snyder; Irving Howe; Watergate ; Curtis LeMay; Lyndon Johnson; Gulf of Tonkin; Eisenhower; U2 incident; President Kennedy; Robert Kennedy; Coup of Diem; Tom Hayden; Jimi Hendrix; Ann Waldman; Amiri Baraka; Ken Kesey; John D. Rockefeller; Vietnam Draft; Manhattan Project; Activism; 1960s music; Howl; Naked Lunch; William Buckley; The Fugs; freakout tent; Woodstock; Wavy Gravy; Medicare; Boomer Generation; Peter Max; Samuel Beckett.</span>
Roosevelt Era; Baby boom generation; Red Scare; Activism; Vietnam War; Universal Health Care; Senator Edmund Muskie; Slavery; Beat generation; John Coltrane; Lester Young; Jazz; Neal Cassady; Silent Generation.
Subject LCSH
Poets, American, Singers--United States; Human rights workers; Environmentalists—United States; Authors; Publishers; Sanders, Ed--Interviews
Transcription
Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium
McKiernan Interviews
Interview with: Ed Sanders
Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan
Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers
Date of interview: ND
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Start of Interview)
0:04
ED: Get ready to go.
0:07
SM: Still there? Okay. When you think of the (19)60s and early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind?
0:15
ED: Liberation and the utilization of the Bill of Rights.
0:24
SM: Is there one specific event in your life that shaped you when you were much younger? One specific happening in our world or society?
0:33
ED: Um, I do not think so. I suppose, you know, the death of loved ones is always a pounding from the universe. My mother died when I was in high school in 1957. Others are, the most formative one in the (19)60s for me, was the Cuban Missile Crisis, when many people really did think that our eyeballs might melt in a nuclear confrontation.
1:11
SM: Um hmm
1:12
ED: I went to bed that night in October thinking that might be curtains for ̶
1:22
SM: So you were probably watching that black and white TV set too when Kennedy came on?
1:27
ED: I did not have one but nobody in my nascent beatnik crowd had a telephone much less a television. No, we watched it at Stanley's Bar. It is depicted in my short story [inaudible] from Volume One of Tales of Beatnik Glory.
1:49
SM: Mm hmm.
1:49
ED: It tells it like it is, like it really happened. So I would say that the Cuban Missile Crisis and then to get out of class at NYU and all of the phones were dead because Kennedy had just been shot. I mean, we tend to be [inaudible] as we measure out our lives in [inaudible] in the (19)60's we measured on our life in assassinations and government ̶
2:23
SM: One of the things in recent years, particularly in the 1990s, and into the first couple of years of this century, there was a lot of criticism of the boomer generation as to the reason to why we have a breakdown in American society. The breakdown of the family, the drug culture, lack of respect for authority; really attaching most of the negatives we have in our society on that particular group of young people, which was about seventy million. Do you think that's fair? Or is it just blowing air?
3:03
ED: I think it is bullshit. The boomers are not to be marked out as betraying their nation any more than any other generation: the lost generation of twenties, the Dadaists of Zurich any art generation the [inaudible], the beatniks, the hippies, the neo-realists. I mean, in all these movements, in other words, that what it is life is it really truly a fabric in a very complicated, weave. The boomers are just part of the overall weave. You know, some of the great things are still being done in the society by the remnants of the Roosevelt era in the (19)30s. The boomers began in this horrible scams, that used Red Scares (that started in 1948) just to prop up the defense contractors. And through Truman and McCarthy and the Korean War, which really did not have to happen, so boomers were given a loaded deck from the civilization and I thought they did pretty well. Especially beginning in the late Eisenhower era, around (19)58 (19)59 when they began to sniff that there was a lot of freedom guaranteed by the constitution that was not used.
4:32
SM: Mm Hmm.
4:32
ED: The generation of the late fifties and the early sixties started using that freedom and as a result, the content of television programs is much more freedom based than it was in say 1939 when the producers of Gone with the Wind had to pay a $5,000.00 fine because Clark Gable uttered the word "damn."
5:03
SM: I did not know that. Oh, wow.
5:05
ED: So flash forward to the early (19)60s when say Lenny Bruce was persecuted in the city. And they tried to ban Howl, Allen Ginsberg's poem in 1958 and there were others, there was William Burroughs Junky hug, William Burroughs Naked Lunch, they tried to ban. But anyway, one after another, these are artificial bans on artistic freedoms were translated to the society as a whole. I do not think there is a breakdown of the family at all, I think there is a definition of family has expanded vastly in our era, so that there are different modes of raising children. The issue is raising sane and honest and ethical and energetic and useful children who grow up to fill the various niches that society needs, from digging ditches, to flying airplanes, to being scientists, inventors, being singers and musicians. All the different spots to get people to fill those then. So there are different combinations of human beings that are raising children now. I think there is not a background, there is not a ̶ the code of Hammurabi type of ethics and the strict reading of the ten commandments is, except for things like: Thou shall not kill, which is of course, never followed by the government, especially one that has force. But anyways, I think all those rules from ancient civilization have been reassessed in a very widespread way. Now the boomer generation that you are writing about, I guess they are getting, they are not quite geezers yet. What are they forty-eight? They are about sixty-one now?
7:08
SM: Sixty-two.
7:08
ED: Yeah, so they are getting ready. They can have early Social Security, some of them if they need it. And in another three years they will be getting Medicare, hopefully, Obama will have adjusted Medicare so it actually pays for things like dentistry, eye glasses and long term health care, long term nursing care. If that happens they will have a good road to the Happy Hunting Ground. Of course, longevity is going to increase the First World War vet just passed away. I mean, the remaining the First World War vet there are very few if any, and others not in England, but maybe there is a few in the United States. So the boomer vet, the boomer gen, veterans of the boomer generation will live on and on and on, thanks to modern healthcare.
7:49
SM: Right.
7:58
ED: The revolution, they may last to, maybe 120 or 130 years old. I think certainly their great grandchildren will have long, long lives.
8:19
SM: If you were to put some just real quick adjectives, some strengths and weaknesses of that generation, what would you put down?
8:33
ED: Um? Strengths and weaknesses?
8:40
SM: Yeah.
8:41
ED: I do not really think like that.
8:43
SM: But it is okay.
8:44
ED: Because it is not really one homogenous generation, many, many different types of people. You can lump them all together because they grew out of the victory over Hitler and Mussolini in the energy of the post-atomic era, they exploded out. You know, they were not making cars in the years before that generation so there was this huge need for automobiles and baby clothes and new houses and jobs. An explosion in the economy in the (19)40s and (19)50s based on all this kind of energy and hunger from the generation that defeated Hitler and the others.
9:38
SM: I asked you earlier about, youth.
9:40
ED: No, no. It is like. The answer to your question is that, it is like, you cannot really say there are blue states and red states because within each state like very right wing states, I have very, very good liberal progressive friends in Texas.
9:59
SM: Mm Hmm.
9:59
ED: Or Arkansas and in Georgia for instance, they are more center left more center left than I am! But they are in these states that are judged to be red states. So it is the same way with the boomer generation it is a wide and diverse tapestry of people that have, through no fault of their own, been brought together as this entity, as they approach old age. So they are like a huge scientific experiment, I guess. And guys like you or, or the scientists that are analyzing them. Anyway, do you have another question?
10:42
SM: Yeah, it was a question about when do you think the (19)60s began? What do you think was the watershed moment? Now, you mentioned your watershed moment in 1962, the Cuban Missile Crisis, but for the generation, what do you think?
10:57
ED: That was personal but generational? Well, there were many good things, I would think the invention of the wah, wah pedal in 1966, which gave Jimi Hendrix some of his most beautiful songs. In general the rise of technology to support the arts in the (19)60s. New types of paints and acrylics and techniques, such as the [inaudible] painting hybrid that was used by Andy Warhol or the montage collage carpentry of Robert Rauschenberg. And then in music, the rise of technology. The Beatles recorded many of their early tunes on four tracks, and then all of a sudden they had eight track and then finally twelve and sixteen tracks, and the same and so the recording technology, the ability to do overdub, to perform in public, they had to build new sound systems so that Crosby, Stills Nash and Young and the Beatles, and the Rolling Stones could play baseball stadiums and not blow out speakers. And there was a huge rise in an artistic technology in the movies. The invention of the video camera around 1967, which allowed Roman Polanski and others to film, their daily rushes in video and then run them right away and see how it was going. So there was all of this technology I think, starred in the mix of the best part of the early years of the boomers.
12:52
SM: When boomers used to say and many still do think that they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society in so many ways. How do you respond to boomers who think that way? Not only then but now?
13:11
ED: Put up or shut up.
13:13
SM: Good point. That, that was all I needed to hear. That was excellent. Because one of the concerns I have had and we've talked about this at our university in certain programs, even Jennie Skerl has been bothering him before she retired is you know, some people copped out and some people continued to go on and on fight for issues. So how important were college students in ending the Vietnam War?
13:48
ED: Well, because they are part of that species known as young people, and young people they can extend, they often have others who are supporting them or helping support them so they could take time out they could go to freedom summers, they could go down to Selma to march. They could go sit-in against nuclear testing in Nevada. They could go to a commune learn how you know, life is. They could take time off to write a book that might not make them a lot of money, so they have time. You know, and they have, the college kids are part of that. Certainly one of the key things that these college kids did was to end the draft which finally ended in 1971. So, it was a huge effort to end that draft. I think ending the draft has prevented a whole bunch of wars that could have happened that now cannot happen because they never have enough troops. Really the Vietnam War had to start winding down because in like 1968, the military realized they did not have enough soldiers to fight in Vietnam and Laos and Cambodia and Thailand, all the other bigger wars. As well as to protect the homeland. The military has a default charge, and that is one which is foreign protection, foreign interest foreign wars, and then to protect the homeland. And after the riots in (19)67, and after the riots that occurred after the assassination of Martin Luther King in April of (19)68. The military had to start pulling back because they did not have enough soldiers to deal with all that. Ending the draft really prevented the military from expanding wars excessively throughout the world. So I think that the long answer to a short question is that it was a great gift of the young people and college kids, to end the draft.
16:17
SM: Do you think they have done a good job? Some are grandparents now the boomers and some are still having, are still parents, and grandparents. Do you think that they have been passing on some of their activism down to their kids and grandkids? Or?
16:33
ED: Well, you do that by two ways. One is by example that your children can easily observe and understand and appreciate. Or two, by teaching, reading and making sure your kids are exposed to the right music, the right songs, the right books, the right and take them out to protest demonstrations and show them what it is it to be against the war. Take them to meetings so that they can understand how grassroots activism is conducted. That is another method too. Many parents do not pass on the torch which is one of the tragedies of that era is that the torch was extinguished. And then now grandchildren. I do not know, it is a difficult thing because you never, suddenly a grandchild can take an issue, take an interest in issue and become very involved, it is really hard to predict. The fact that we do not have universal health care. The fact that we are in two or three or four maybe more wars right now, that you have things like Somalia, in the jungles of the Philippines, as well as Iran and Iraq. We, the boomer generation, the (19)60s generation, the (19)50s generation, the last three or four generations have failed to turn the United States civilization into a more humane, caring society in general, although we have a lot of freedom. We are really like the civilization depicted in Bertolt Brecht's Rise and Fall of the City of Mahogany. Everything is possible, everything is allowed, as long as you have money.
18:28
SM: This is a question and I want to read this because this has to do with the issue of healing. We had a chance I took a group of students down to see Ed Muskie, former senator before he passed away. He had just gotten out of the hospital and we took our students there. And I read him this question.
18:43
ED: Oh did he have cancer?
18:44
SM: Yeah, yeah, he died. I think he died of cancer. But he was in remission for a short time before he came back and it did him in. Do you feel boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth? Division between black and white, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? What role has the wall played in healing these divisions or was this primarily a healing for veterans? Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has forty years made the statement "Time heals all wounds," a truth? And I want to just finish by saying that when I asked Ed Muskie, that question, he had just gotten out of the hospital and he had been watching Ken Burns' Civil War series when he was in the hospital. And so he and he did not answer the question right away. He waited about a minute. And then he had tears in his eyes. And then he we had fourteen students there and they were all kind of looking at each other what is going on here. And he basically said, we have not healed since the Civil War, and then he went on to be talking about you know, the all the loss of life from that particular war and the loss of generations of kids that would have been born because the population during that war was a lot smaller than it is here so the proportion of men in America and the number of kids they could have had was astounding. But just your thoughts on, you know, whether healing should be an issue here within the generation. Ed, could you speak up just a little bit too?
20:31
ED: It used to be that the Swedes, rode out and sailed out of Sweden for instance or from Denmark, the Danes, toward England and landed and then slaughtered everybody they could find. Steal the women and the food and the jewelry and the people [inaudible] Fast forward four or five centuries and you know, Denmark and Sweden are [inaudible] pretty advanced [inaudible] marvelous health system and pretty advanced systems besides those, Denmark but it takes four or five hundred years often for a society to reveal its moral identity [inaudible]. However, with respect to the Civil War, I agree with Ulysses Grant, who said that the civil war could have been God's punishment for America undertaking the Mexican War, evil and the injustices, and slaughter, in the Mexican War and the karma of that, oozed forward into the karma of the Civil War. I think the Civil War leads directly back to greedy English planters in Jamestown, and from say, after the founding, in 1607 up to say, 1690 those first eighty years, deliberately bringing in more and more and more and more and more slaves from the dungeons of no return in Africa to do long term damage to the soil through first growing tobacco, this nasty tobacco from the Indies and then cotton. Those lines of slavery and the terrible exploitation of blacks [inaudible] Virginia in South Carolina down in the south, the karma of that leap forward to the Civil War and beyond. And then, you know there was plenty of people that were raised as racists even, especially among the boomer generation, and anti-Semites, there is plenty of anti-Semites, anti-black, and there is plenty of anti-Portuguese. The Italians put down the Irish and Irish sometimes sneer at the Italians. The Germans called Swedes stupid and the Swedes called the Germans cruel and barbaric and the Norwegians could not stand above them all the Scotch-Irish have carried their mean streak forward in America ever since they were shoved out of Ireland and Scotland you know, after the triumph of 1649 to 1660, after the Protestants took over. Who is that guy?
23:47
SM: Martin Luther?
23:48
ED: No, no, no. This is 1649.
23:50
SM: Oh 1649.
23:51
ED: 1660, he was the Protestant head of England and then after he died, his son tried to rule and then they brought back Charles the second.
24:02
SM: Cromwell?
24:03
ED: Cromwell. Ollie baby! So, you know, the, Cromwell was so mean to the Irish and then there was all this division of land and pushing out and they, they stole all the, all the common lands. There were these ancient common lands in England and all through the seventeenth century they closed off the commons and drove everybody out and some of them came to America and they were you know, bitter and angry kept those mean streaks going right up to now, some of these. I mean, I am Scotch-Irish. I am part Scotch-Irish anyway.
24:44
SM: That is what I am.
25:00
ED: Well, anyway, everybody brought their, their racial characteristics and their karmic characteristics into the boomer genesis, post-Second World War boomer generation. And they, people submerge their personal problems, they submerge their idiosyncrasies, and they submerge their mean streaks at least for a while into the general flow of getting up, getting to a job, having children, getting married, you know, eek out a living, set a little aside for when they are old, and just to get by as Americans. So but they cannot escape those plantations of a Jamestown and they cannot escape the evil of the Mexican War that [inaudible] protests against and what Ulysses S. Grant wrote about, and then the horrible slaughter of Antietam.
26:01
SM: Oh yeah.
26:02
ED: And all throughout Gettysburg and oy Shiloh. Oy! Oy! Oy!
26:09
SM: Mm Hmm.
26:10
ED: But then it goes back also to George Washington's surge in the late eighteenth century against the natives, the Indians of Western New York, just to clear land really and for further development by the Europeans who were surging to the west. Now that the English were defeated more or less in the Revolutionary War. So all this karmic gnarl cannot be separated if you know anything about history from this generation. This generation the boomer generation did not spring like dragon's teeth from the soil of America. They have karmic knots that go way back but they did good, it was an inventive era you know, the transistor and I do not know, they did interesting things and also the American culture. Jazz! Jazz poetry. Modern painting. Inventions and movies. There is science discoveries, longevity, cancer cures you know, we do not all eventually die of breast cancer thank god anymore, or some people are even starting to survive with pancreatic cancer for much longer. And so there is a, it is all a big fight against the Grim Reaper.
27:30
SM: Right.
27:31
ED: And also a fight for human dignity and freedom. And sharing really, people do not like to use the word sharing but it is to spread the wealth around to everybody. There is a decent drive, the baby boomers, a good portion of them to do just that.
27:49
SM: Um hmm. And I wanted to ask this, do you feel the Beats had a direct influence on the (19)60s and (19)70s, even though they were often identified with the (19)50s?
28:00
ED: Sure, because a lot of them live on and on and on. Kerouac died in 1969. Gregory Corso lived until (19)91. Ginsberg died in (19)90, no excuse me, Corso lasted until 2001, Ginsberg died in (19)97, and Burroughs also (19)97 but they were very active culturally. And this Beat generation was like a deliberate plan, they got together you know, they were going to call themselves a generation and they knew they had really smart men and women aboard that generation so they floated it and it worked.
28:38
SM: How did you become a Beat?
28:41
ED: Well, when I was when I was in high school, it is in my short stories, my book: Tales of Beatnik Glory. The story, one of, where I describe reading Howl when I was in high school.
28:59
SM: Okay.
29:00
ED: And I memorized it. I used to recite when me and my friends drove around drinking beer around the county courthouse, I would scream out Howl and I memorized it. It sort of saved my life. I always tell audiences I might have been an Eskimo Pie driver if it had not been for Howl.
29:21
SM: [laughs]
29:23
ED: So Howl. And then Allen became one of my best friends. And I knew all of them. Corso, Gary, Allen Ginsberg, Burroughs was a friend, Corso was a friend, Gary Snyder's a good friend. I wrote a book about Allen Ginsberg: Poetry and Life of Allen Ginsberg, so I was very tuned in to him.
29:44
SM: You know, the beats are often defined as rebels and do you think this mentality through their writings and lifestyle subconsciously filter into the boomer generation in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? Were the feelings like it is okay to be different? And not be silent.
30:01
ED: That is true. It is okay to be different than they were perceived as being different. The girls wore a lot of Egyptian eye makeup modeled on Jean Paul Sartre's girlfriend Juliette Greco and they would wear sheer-toed high heels and mesh stockings, maybe a leather vest and very daring not to wear a brassiere back in (19)58 or (19)59 or they would wear these [inaudible] beatnik sandals. The guys for their part might sport a Florida maritime turtleneck sweater and a black jacket and sandals themselves. So it was a visual thing in part. And berets. Men wearing berets. Then of course when the hip you know they would never beatniks would have never have worn necklaces, it was not a few years later when the sixties hit that men started wearing necklaces, wore their hair long, and they wore robes and silk gowns and that was different. But the Beats were, came out of Second World War so they were, their dress was pretty dark and somber. Very existential. And they were, I guess you could call them rebels. You know, they smoked pot. They, they all of them knew John Coltrane riffs or knew Charlie Parker riffs. There was Lester Young. Went to Lester Young performances and knew a lot about jazz and picked up from the jazz singers use of marijuana and of course people like Neal Cassidy were; took a lot of uppers. But when I was in school in the (19)50s everybody took Benzedrine. The whole boomer generation. You know, in my opinion, the whole boomer generation got through college on coca cola and a few uppers to help them pass the test. They would never admit it but, uh.
32:27
SM: It is interesting that when I interviewed Hettie, I asked her this question, and she really well, she had some interesting comments, and that is why did the Beats want to be different in the first place? And secondly, obviously they challenged the norm during a time few people spoke up. This is kind of what the boomers did during their college age, some of them, maybe 15 percent of them because we were only talking about a percentage of the boomers, and describe you there is a link here to me between the silent generation and the boomer generation.
33:02
ED: Maybe there is always they always say that young people are more willing to shake the wall and make some changes. The older people who have been through a lot been through scrapes and through illnesses, and one or two marriages and worried about paying their bills that they have a different attitude. Many people tend to lose their youthful arrogance or their youthful; some young people can be a real pain, you know, they, they have this attitude of a, you know, I have, we have received the knowledge and 'go fuck yourself' so you know, I do not know, that's not a lot of kids but there are. I remember the socialist Irving Howe he was at a meeting and being harangued by studying was not sufficiently of the left was not enough for the people. Howe said something like this you know where you are going to be doing in a few years young man? You are going to be a dentist, so I always think of that. Sometimes I get a little static. I do a lot of college gigs and I answer their questions all of the time after my readings or lectures, there is a faction out there, very rarely, but they think they know it all without having read too many books.
34:52
SM: Yeah, that is what we try to always tell students, you know. Emotion is important. You got to have emotion when you believe in something, a passion but you also got to have knowledge. And when you have the combination of knowledge and emotion, it is hard to beat. Just all these movements took place during that period, too, because I have interviewed a lot of people and they know that the civil rights movement was kind of a model for the, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, Native American, Chicano, environmental movement, a lot of different movements of that particular time that continued through today and have evolved. Were those Boomer, do you give that all credit to the boomer generation for those movements after the civil rights movement?
35:38
ED: I do not know. I think what the civil rights movement was, was a double empowerment, it was an empowerment of young blacks and also religious blacks. And also young whites, and then of course more established whites who formed bonds to decide that their goals on the surface of it were not that bad. They wanted the right to vote. They wanted an end to poll taxes and they wanted to drink water at fountains and ride buses, wherever they wanted and to use public bathrooms and restaurants. You know, and then, of course, Martin Luther King and [inaudible] brought the additional factor of, they want jobs. Jobs and economic interest between blacks and whites. So demand for economic equity, and these other, other civil rights things were I guess you can say that some of them, many of the participants were of the boomer generation. But I do not think, I do not know who invented the word Boomer, but I do not I do not think it was invented by the time of the great, by the lunch counter sit-ins or the freedom riots in (19)61.
36:17
SM: Right.
37:10
ED: The pool integration in (19)62. The commercial worship in (19)53. Selma in (19)65, voter registration and John Lewis; (19)56, (19)57, leading to the portion of (19)64 and Voting Rights Act in (19)68, the Great Society Acts. The real big cram with the boomer generation, was the Great Society legislation where basically a white congress voted in place beginning in the four ̶
38:03
SM: Uh huh.
38:03
ED: A law, the Medicare, all the other karmic acts, all the great, great society cats ̶
38:16
SM: Did you come in this is an area that, you know, you end the year with the Fugs and all the music? How important? Obviously we know it is but I like your thoughts on the music of that of the boomer generation, the music of the (19)60s in the (19)70s. And I talk about the music, it is not it is not just all the great bands and performers, the folk musicians, Motown. Just your comment and how important that was for this seventy million people. And second part of this question is, when I talked to Pete Seeger this past weekend, he talked about that, you know, he was always raised with the belief based on how his father raised him that that music was it's the words is what's important. It is not so much the musicians as it is the words of the young people will take the social messages and people take the social messages, and they will always remember them and pass them on. And there seem to be a lot of messages in the music of this particular time, just your thoughts and how important music was to the 70 million boomer generation. And I am going to change my tape here one second. Certainly you are involved in this. If you could speak up just a little louder too, thanks.
39:48
ED: Well of course, music is always important to every nation in every civilization. What was different about the music of the (19)60s into the (19)70s was that as I mentioned, there was a huge rise of recording technology so that you could do multitrack recording and then overdub and add vocals. Up till the early (19)60s the recording was done of like ten generation mono to mono. In other words, the orchestra would play on a mono between two fancy tape recorders then Frank Sinatra would lay down his vocals. And then they would run the same tape over, and then they would add the harmony singers and maybe some strings and other instruments. So it was very labor intensive. The beginning was the Beatles in (19)64 or (19)65, with the Fugs and other bands this new technology was suddenly there. And there were all these marvelous amplifiers. And more importantly, the music could be heard because they were out there, the sound systems that evolved even in little clubs but also in big places such as baseball stadiums, bigger venues so that the word could star in the mix. And that words, assumed great importance, because of the impact of people like Woody Guthrie and Harry Smith's anthology of American folk music, and the other Folkways albums.
41:38
SM: Mmm hmm.
41:38
ED: They would listen to it and then things like Pete Seeger who adopted a song he learned from a woman I think in North Carolina, and it became We Shall Overcome.
41:49
SM: Right.
41:50
ED: And then all the religious songs came about: Ain't Going to Study War No More and everybody was adopting these religious tunes Down by the River Side and We Shall Overcome. I have Been Buked and I have Been Scorned from the great March on Washington: Mahalia Jackson and Peter, Paul and Mary adopting folk music, folk songs, simple American folk songs, or European folk songs, adopting them. Putting secret messages in them, you know. Folk music, it often exists, like the Bible and has layers of meanings We Shall Overcome can be just as much of "we'll have a good life" but it also can mean we'll end slavery or we'll end racism or we'll win social equity. All these great songs evolved and they were singable, and of course music is more memorable. All ̶ We are Saying is Give Peace a Chance, that John Lennon wrote in 1969. You know, that, that did more to in the war in Vietnam, than any street demonstration.
43:15
SM: If you were to pinpoint, I know, there is so many of them, and it's not fair to others to exclude them but if you were to pick three, four or five of the top entertainers from that era, that really were the top echelon of that kind of music, who would they be?
43:34
ED: What were you talking about?
43:35
The musicians that influenced the boomers, whether they be folk musicians, rock bands, or Motown singers.
43:45
ED: Well who knows you know, you could start out with popular singers, some more scholarly and get into other things you could hear. You could hear Elvis Presley and then say, well what is this rockabilly stuff maybe I should look more into it ̶
44:11
SM: Mm Hmm.
44:11
ED: You know, you start with Elvis or you might start with Mac the Knife by Bobby Darin and then go discover Bertolt Brecht that way. So you know, there are the obvious great musicians, Elvis, the Beatles, of course Bob Dylan, Joan Baez who had this huge impact on the generation with Hush Little Children Do not You Cry all that first album All My Trials. But somehow (Bob) Stravinski had a big influence on the avant-garde and people who wanted to change the world.
44:58
SM: Mm Hmm.
45:02
ED: I knew [inaudible] Stravinski and Joan Baez personally [inaudible] but then you go back into Bill Haley and the Fleshtones and Mickey and Sylvia: Love is Strange. Mr. Earl, that song. I do not know there was a lot of rock and roll that people were exposed to that, it truly was the harbinger of racial mingling.
45:31
SM: Mm Hmm.
45:31
ED: It was obviously a black phenomenon as was jazz. I grew up in Kansas City, I was exposed to a lot of jazz when I was a kid, but just I thought it was just regular music. I did not realize that when I was very young [inaudible] it was just good dance music.
46:03
SM: You mentioned that you thought John Lennon's music or song had a lot to do with ending the war as anything. What, why? Why did the war in Vietnam end in your opinion?
46:19
ED: Well, yes. Well, you know, it takes a long time, they started it basically, they started doing the defoliation in 1962 [inaudible] in (19)63, the supposition of the end and then, it did not really begin until (19)65 and then (19)66 through [inaudible] (19)68 I think because of all the scholar activists, all the people that were studying what was going on while raising their voices against it. And then the huge anti-draft movement.
47:09
SM: Uh huh.
47:10
ED: It took, people had to spend their whole lives every day protesting and raising money to stop this war. And the whole; it was: you know, they wanted to just like MacArthur wanted to drop H-bombs on North Vietnam, North Korea, or China on the border between North Korea and China. So too did people like General LeMay wanted to drop nuclear weapons on China.
47:41
SM: Yes. Yup.
47:39
ED: So it was what we prevented, more than anything. It was written that Nixon was thinking of using nuclear weapons in 1969. And so they sang John Lennon's Give Peace a Chance at the mobilization rally in DC in the fall of 1969 and Nixon was aware of that demonstration and said he realized [inaudible] and demonstrations all over America that they could not increase the war in Vietnam and they had to start pulling it back. A long, long I mean it was (19)75, six years and then hounded him out of office. I mean you know, it was so evil and such an injustice. However, they can build walls, honoring the dead, and I am sorry, there were any dead there and veterans, you can build a wall between here and the moon, but you are not going to do away with the evil of the Vietnam War. Never.
48:49
SM: What, in your opinion, were the best books that were that the boomers read in their growing up years that may have had an influence on them?
48:58
ED: I have no idea. I had my own life by then. I was reading my own classics. I have a question here and then; I just cannot figure out figure out what; you know, they start out reading books you know, Catcher in the Rye and branch out into you know different uh; they might have read, read Che Guevara's diary as part of a college class. They might have; who knows what avenues to read lead.
49:33
SM: I know that a lot of people with Mao's book. Chairman Mao's book.
49:39
ED: Yeah, because the, I forget what group was Maoist but they printed a lot of those. I had a bookstore. I had a bookstore for a number of years on the lower east side and somehow I would get these little red books and they were like free, they would get dropped off.
49:58
SM: [laughs]
49:58
ED: And they would urge me to sell them.
50:01
SM: Right. I have a question here on trust. Um, one of the things that this is this is definitely part of the boomer generation is a lot of the leaders lying to, lying to them and lying to the American public. Because you saw that was what Watergate was all about and certainly, Lyndon Johnson, the Gulf of Tonkin, Eisenhower in the U2 incident, even in recent years, President Kennedy and his linkage to the Coup of Diem and knew and of course, Ronald Reagan. It seems like at that particular period, I can remember when I was in college, and I went to SUNY Binghamton, a lot of students did not trust anybody. They did not trust the president, they did not trust anybody in any leadership role, whether it be vice president of Student Affairs, they did not trust the minister in the church, the rabbi, the head of a corporation, they did not trust anybody in a position of responsibility. And, and I have seen, I do not know if that has been passed down to their kids. But my question is basically this, I was in a Psychology 101 class in my first year of college and I remember the psychology professors telling the students that if you cannot trust in your life, then you will not be a success in life. That trust is a very important quality and I am just want your ̶
51:24
ED: Tell that to John D. Rockefeller who you know, used distrust to take over all of the oil in America. I do not know it is a terrible thing to have. On one level, it's the Beavis and Butthead isolation of American civilization where there is a culture of impoliteness that spreads which is not that good ̶ you see it at events and public all over the place, sort of against general rudeness that's one thing. Another thing is, you grow up and every ̶ everything is a lie so you can either isolate yourself from everything and we were told basically to be existentialists, to be alien; and be alienated by the fifties. Being alienated [inaudible] say James Dean or Marlon Brando that was a public icon to be alienated. So, but if you take it to the extreme and feel alienated from all this, then you can become isolated or you become a pawn of the military industrial complex or a right wing capitalist who will take advantage of that alienation. You have great authoritarian control, and you have you know, the situation of 1984, where everybody is suspicious and there is rule and neo-fascism. So it is a difficult situation because especially when the government has shown for so many decades to have lied so much about many things. Even some of our elections like the 2000 election. So, the idea of having stolen elections [inaudible] computer voting, wars you do not know what they really mean. Can you really count on the government? And so you say fuck it I am just going to drink beer, play a little golf and head off into the sunset.
53:46
SM: What does that mean to activism though?
53:49
ED: Well, some people have it in their blood, you know, they vow to go out in a blaze of leaflets. My vow was to always stay very active in local politics. I stay active and I think a lot of people in our generation too, I mean, I admired people like Tom Hayden for instance.
54:07
SM: I interviewed him for this project.
54:10
ED: I stayed pretty active.
54:15
SM: When the best history books are written, you know they are usually written fifty years after a period. What do you think they will be saying about the boomer generation?
54:27
ED: I do not know. They may not even use the word boomer generation.
54:31
SM: Hmm.
54:31
ED: They may put, they may decide that the generation began with the first experiment in the Manhattan Project in 1939 or (19)40. They may begin it with Einstein's letter to Roosevelt to build the bomb. They may begin it at some date that Marian Anderson's concert at the ̶
54:58
SM: Sure.
55:01
ED: I do not know. Or they may be accepted as the bona fide movement that lead to maybe something wonderful happening in the next twenty or thirty years, I do not know [inaudible] the spirit to America that will transform.
55:20
SM: The last part of the interview is just quick responses to just some terms or names.
55:25
ED: I am not going to be able to talk anymore. I got to get to a meeting. You should take your email you were supposed to call me at one. You are welcome to call another day. And I can conclude.
55:36
SM: Okay.
55:37
ED: I got to run and get to a meeting.
55:40
SM: All right.
55:40
ED: But you can call, you know what day you want to call?
55:44
SM: Well. I am going back and forth between New York, somebody just had open heart surgery up there.
55:51
ED: Who did?
55:52
SM: One of my relatives.
55:53
ED: Oh well, sometime within the next few days, I do not care. Call any time after noon, after like one and I am available. I just got to run to a meeting that I forgot about.
56:05
SM: All right, well, I only have about fifteen more. I think this, when we left the last time, I think I only have about twenty – twenty-five minutes and that will be it.
56:15
ED: Ok.
56:16
SM: Because it is basically there is just one little section left. But I want to ask a couple questions before I get into you responding to some of the personalities and the terms from that era. Could you go a little bit more into how the Beats, how important the Beats were in shaping the boomer generation, just for their attitudes and the way they lived.
56:46
ED: Um, well, define these people: Corso, Kerouac, Burroughs, Ginsberg, Huncke. In certain ways Charlie Parker and Diane Di Prima, in other ways Gary Snyder. They came out of the World War II generation out of the (19)40s and out of the post war boom, the thought boom of the release in the United States after World War II the created abstract expressionism, detective novels. And both from the synthesis of the east and west coast. The Beat generation who flourished with the beginning with the publication of Howl and they flourished as a kind of statement against the McCarthy era and against the squareness and the constrained culture of the 1950s and caused the generation of the boomers, so-called boomers to relax a little bit and not to be afraid to be more individualistic and follow their own life. America always has had a streak of individualism and people who do not motivate it but the Beats helped push the generation along the so-called boomer generation and also by demanding more freedom under the Bill of Rights. The battle of William Burroughs over publication of Naked Lunch and the battle around his thirst for sexual freedom and for acceptance of overt homosexuality and for the fight, the struggles, you know, the Feds tried to stomp down Howl when it came out and so he helped prevail on that and Allen also helped a lot in the trial, the court case where they tried to squash Naked Lunch. So they helped create a greater sense of freedom so that in our own time shows like The Sopranos even or some of these shows that use language and overt gayness on television and movies. The Beats helped liberate the personal freedom areas and art forms. They had a big hand in helping to set the new freedoms.
59:45
SM: Hmm. Through the years as some of the Beats are getting older, whether it be Burrows, Ginsberg or Kerouac, Ferlinghetti, Ann Waldman, who was one of the younger ones, Snyder, Amiri Baraka and Ken Kesey, yourself. What did you think of this boomer generation? They were, you were a little older. And what was the feeling when some of these things were happening? Because obviously, the Beats in the (19)50s were pretty tight knit group. And, and there is a lot of camaraderie there. And then this new generation is happening with all these issues and whether it be drugs, the music, the dress codes, and everything, just your thoughts on how, what they thought of this generation when you were around them.
1:00:45
ED: I did not even realize anything about this thing called boomer generation until a few years ago, I mean, it did not occur to me. I mean it is obvious that when you have a literary generation, or a musical generation or a painting generation that there will come along, another generation nipping at the heels. And as you walk off the plank of life, they will emerge on the deck of the ship and say, it's all ours! So I do not know, I did not really think about them. I knew that there were always going to be younger, emerging art forms and artists but I did not think of it in terms of a general huge mass of people called the boomer generation. Again, what is the designation? They were born after the atomic bomb was dropped?
1:01:36
SM: Yeah, in 1946 to (19)64 that was the years they put down for them.
1:01:43
ED: They are all spoiled brats!
1:01:46
SM: [laughs]
1:01:46
ED: They swelled in on an empire that was not yet beginning to fade. So they, they were kind of spoiled little [inaudible] thinking everybody would cow tow to the United States. The battles seemed to be over.
1:02:08
SM: What is really interesting is that of all the Beats that I remember, and it is the Allen Ginsberg seemed to be around everywhere. Uh, and uh
1:02:20
ED: He had the metabolism of a chipmunk. He had a high metabolism. And if you look at history, I mean look, I wrote a book on Allen Ginsberg's life called The Poetry and Life of Allen Ginsberg. And in research and I knew him intimately for, oh from 1964 till he died in the spring of (19)97, so thirty-three years.
1:02:42
SM: Mm hmm.
1:02:43
ED: We were in almost daily contact so I realized what fanatic, fantastic energy, the guy had, he never really had to sleep. Sometimes I stayed at his house when I was in New York on business and he would be up in the middle of night doing work. I do not know if he ever really slept. He had a high metabolism and he was always in motion, he did more benefits than anybody in world culture. He must have done thousands of benefits for a wide variety of causes. But also, personal appearances at colleges here, in China, Russia, Czechoslovakia, Europe, all over Europe and India. He was always giving readings. And so I was always amazed at the huge numbers wide the wide cultural swath he made. People were coming from India from China from Japan. I mean, he was famous in Japan from Italy from Germany from France from England, from Scotland, from Wales. The guy at cultural connections to a huge plethora of countries. Pretty amazing.
1:03:58
SM: I just remember that time that he was on TV with William Buckley. Do you remember that?
1:04:02
ED: I did not see that show but I heard about it.
1:04:07
SM: Yeah, it was amazing because Buckley of course, being the conservative that he was, was fascinated by him. Literally fascinated.
1:04:15
ED: Well, they were friends. One good thing about Buckley, of course, not my cup of tea, but nevertheless, you know, took the stance against the far right. The anti-Semitic right and also was capable of having friends among liberals. He was a friend of Howard Lowenstein and in a way was a friend of Allen Ginsberg.
1:04:42
SM: You were in a band called the Fugs. How did the boomers look to that group?
1:04:51
ED: Oh, I do not know. We still get fan mail some younger people. I do not know. I am not sure how they? (19)46? Well, there was one born in the late (19)40s and early (19)50s would have been, could have been Fugs fans, [inaudible] around (19)67 or (19)68.
1:05:13
SM: Right.
1:05:13
ED: I remember they were always hiding Fugs records from their parents.
1:05:01
SM: [laughs]
1:05:10
ED: They would write in and complain that their Fugs records, that their parents had broken a Fugs record across their father's knee or something. They were indignant. If the definition is (19)46 and onwards then many of them, heck, probably our whole fan base was boomers.
1:05:38
SM: If you were described the Fugs' music, how would you put it in a few words or a few sentences?
1:05:50
ED: Well, it grew. It started out as a kind of primitive, acoustical folk music. We did not go to Juilliard School, so we taught ourselves. We grew up in the great school of American Jazz, American folk music and American civil rights songs and American rock and roll. Everything from, and also Country and Western and Hasidic. You know, we brought a lot of Jewish melodies to our music. I grew up in the happening, movement. So we were a happening. We were spontaneous. We were like action painting but for music. But over the years, our music, and a mixture through what was artful and experimentations that our music grew and grew in skill and quality. So by the time we did our final records for Warner Brothers, it evolved into [inaudible]. We rose up and did a major album. So our music always grew. We started out primitive. Got less primitive. Got into different types of music. So now like forty-five years after our founding, I have had a band together for twenty-five years and they are very, very, very accomplished. So, how to describe it? They have to listen to us. The Fugs are not a visual thing. We are all we are our songs. All The Fugs ever will be even apart from the stage remains the recording studio and live. We are the ̶ our stage.
1:07:32
SM: When we just had the fortieth anniversary of Woodstock, in fact, I think the last when I spoke to you the first time it was a couple of weeks before the big happening was going to take place and Richie was going to open, Richie Havens. I think you had a concert there in fact. What when you look at that Woodstock, do you think that that was more about fun, more about culture? More about issues? What, how would you describe it?
1:08:06
ED: Well, it was an act, part activism and part planning. I mean I guess 300,000 young people pushed out to Sullivan County you know and many of them were against the war in Vietnam, many of them wanting a new, a new living arrangement. Living outdoors so it was kind of a good commune. The food was free cooked by Wavy Gravy and the hog farm. Wavy Gravy you know, into the microphone, at I think it was on the first night, or? First morning or second morning of Woodstock? Said, "What I have in mind is breakfast in bed for 400,000 people." And then it also had the kind of medical system that we need in the United States, free medical care. I have a good I have a doctor friend who's now an eminent neurologist, who was a volunteer at the freak-out tent at Woodstock, so people who were having medical problems that got free medical attention from volunteer doctors/ Plus free food. The ticket system broke down so there was free music. There was a celebration of beautiful farmland it was on a huge I think 50 or 60 acre farm; a dairy farm. Celebrate the beautiful American out of doors. Then celebrate also the kind of music that was rising up at that time with Jimi Hendrix and his great National Anthem which was performed at dawn on the final day with this new miraculous instrument in the United States called the wah, wah pedal and his active patriotism. In its own way. It was very patriotic. He set the tone for the (19)60s with that one National Anthem. All the other singing? I do not know, it was also a triumph of technology because it was not until a year or so before that you could play the music through speakers that can be heard by 400,000 people so the technology rose very quickly. With Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young and the others. So it was good. Technology, sharing, free medical care, all the outdoors. And then of course, a lot of pot and I guess there was acid there. Mainly pot I think. And beer. Pot, beer, acid, rock and roll, technology, love of the out of doors and having a good time.
1:10:59
SM: Who did you personally look up to? Who were your ̶ Well, I am not going to overstate this thing. Who are your heroes? Or who were the role models that inspired you?
1:11:12
ED: From those days?
1:11:13
SM: From those days or anytime? How did you become who you became?
1:11:21
ED: I do not know. I had heroes. It's like when they asked Michael Dukakis who were his heroes from the (19)88 election. You find heroes in your life from you know, Sunday school all the way up to performers and writers of course, teachers, I had a bunch of teachers [inaudible] like Sappho [inaudible] here other musicians that I admired [inaudible] when I was a kid. And also, rock and roll stars you know that rose later. I do not know. When I became an adult, Allen Ginsberg became my mentor. Carl Wilson before he was my mentor. [inaudible] friend, early on was one of my mentors. I looked to people for advice. You know, I am reading [inaudible] normally every week I read his stories for a while. I do not know, Norman Thomas was a mentor. Ghandi was a mentor. John Paul Sarte was big in my mind, and Samuel Beckett was an early hero as a writer and then somebody to emulate, at least in his persistence and overcoming his really [inaudible] world worldview with great art.
1:13:03
SM: How would you like to be remembered? What would? When you are gone what do you would, would you would like people to say about you? Or hope that people would say about you and secondly your writing. Your gift to people?
1:13:23
ED: Well, I hope with respect to my writings that they will, find, poems inside the body of my writing or short stories or other kinds of [inaudible] for 300 years from now.
1:13:43
SM: It in that this is very general and, and maybe impossible to answer but if you were to, if we were to ever bury seventy million people in one grave, which is the boomer generation and we put a tombstone on there, what do you think the, the epithet was say? The epitaph?
1:14:16
ED: [singing voice] Things go better with Coca Cola.
1:14:24
SM: Laughs.
1:14:25
ED: [singing voice] Better with Coke. Or we came, we saw. The word is not conquered. We came, we saw, we completed, man. I mean, you know, it is a generation. They come, they go. They are doomed. We used a plank image before. I mean, you know, you get born. What is it that Samuel Beckett said? You part with your? [inaudible] other ways to stride the grave really, it is not sing-song all the way but the idea is to have fun. One thing about the boomer generation is that their parents, having lived through World War II and all the, which really was a great triumph of American civilization. You know America defeated the militaristic Japanese which really is a wonderful thing. And so that generation told their kids, you know, have a little fun. You know? So I think the boomer generation was not afraid to have fun. [inaudible] now they are getting old.
1:15:50
SM: Let us hope that they are still having fun.
1:15:51
ED: Oh, well their arthritis causes them to not have as much fun.
1:15:55
SM: Yeah. Two quotes that come out of this era. One was one that Bobby Kennedy used a lot and another one was a Peter Max one. And, and the question is, which one better defined the boomer generation. And of course, the Bobby Kennedy one is, some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not? And the other one is Peter Max, You do your thing, and I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful. Those are two extremes.
1:16:32
ED: The quotes a little hippie dippy. I mean, you know [inaudible] that is the whole problem with 'do your own thing'. You know, I mean, that is what Hitler would say. Doing your thing is always um, problematic. But Robert Kennedy, Robert's, really, now that I am getting on in years, Robert Kennedy is emerging as a personal hero. I writing a book about him but it I do not know if it will take long enough to; if I figure out how many books to write, maybe I'll finally write my book about Robert Kennedy.
1:16:32
SM: Let me switch deep here and then we will get into these questions on the people hold on a second.
(Only tape one of the interview is available)
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Interview with Ed Sanders
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Sanders, Ed ; McKiernan, Stephen
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audio/wav
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Poets, American, Singers--United States; Human rights workers; Environmentalists—United States; Authors; Publishers; Sanders, Ed--Interviews
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Ed Sanders is a poet, author, musician, and activist who grew up in the state of Missouri. He attended the University of Missouri and New York University where he earned his Bachelor's degree in Ancient Greek. After college, he opened the Peace Eye Bookstore in New York City and started <em>Fuck You: A Magazine of the Arts</em>. Allen Ginsberg, Ezra Pound, and Dylan Thomas were all early influences as Sanders tried to bridge the concerns of Beat Poetry and the counterculture of the 1960s. He is the author of many collections of poetry where he received several honors including fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts and the Guggenheim Foundation. Sanders has written many books of prose, a non-fiction book, <em>The Family</em>, and published a bi-weekly newspaper, the <em>Woodstock Journal</em>. He is the founding member of the satirical and subversive folk-rock music group, The Fugs.
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Binghamton University Libraries
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eng
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McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.107
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2018-03-29
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McKiernan Interviews
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77:17