30 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/cc2699896c213ad039479cea47024a7b.jpg f442ef3434bf04a2ad491c4a4bd5087b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0df9a26ade2a96366b900dd1d2f98592.mp3 4d0153c1c9b1eeff07d8f551c66b7730 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-05-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Al Santoli, 1949- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam. He earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13057,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam. He earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 147:37 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Veterans; Weatherman Underground; Jim Webb; Vietnam Memorial; Maya Lin; trust; WWII; Watergate; Bob Muller; Counterculture; Louis Puller."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Veterans; Weatherman Underground; Jim Webb; Vietnam Memorial; Maya Lin; trust; WWII; Watergate; Bob Muller; Counterculture; Louis Puller.</span> Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Authors; Bronze Star Medal (U.S.); Purple Heart; Santoli, Al, 1949--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Albert Santoli Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 18 May 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two, testing. Start it right now. Al (00:00:08): Let me go to your email as well. SM (00:00:11): Okay. Did you get my email address for [inaudible]- Al (00:00:22): I Did. Thank you very much. SM (00:00:26): Yeah. And do not forget, Paul Yuppies at Merrill Lynch in New York City. Al (00:00:30): Should I just... I have never met him before. Who else... Who is he close to? What board? SM (00:00:36): Well, he is close to Jan Scruggs. Al (00:00:40): Okay. SM (00:00:41): For the Vietnam Memorial. But Paul is... He is one of the top people at Merrill Lynch in New York City. He has had a lot of different positions because they had to go through... You know some people lost their jobs there, but he has been very successful and has moved on to different roles. And I am not sure how financially stable they are, but he is a big supporter of Vietnam veterans. And he has spoken at the wall and he has contributed, I believe, to the Women's Memorial and to Jan Scruggs' Vietnam Memorial through the Merrill Lynch. So he would be a great contact. Al (00:01:20): Mm-hmm. SM (00:01:22): So, alright I do not know if you are ready to go. Al (00:01:25): Just about. I have one more sentence here on this message that I have to send, so I can clear the deck on this one and then I am a hundred percent with you. SM (00:01:34): Okay. [inaudible]. Okay. We are going right with the questions that I sent you and- Al (00:01:40): Now those are a lots of questions. I was thinking of, maybe streamline it. Like the stuff of, what do I think about these different decades? I do not see that that is really... You might have a reason for that, very specific reason for that. The theme of your book. I do not know that I have that much to say about it. I think that there is other things there that, probably, I can address and put some statements into that are going to be more meaningful. SM (00:02:16): Mm-hmm. Well, let us go right to number two then. How did the 1950s shape you? Al (00:02:24): Well, that is when I was born, I mean, in (19)49. So the (19)50s was my childhood. And I do not know, I think the people's characters are what they are and the (19)50s, people are people no matter when they are born. And I think that you can say that it was pre-high-tech. SM (00:02:53): Mm-hmm. Al (00:02:54): But then again, I do not know how that influences people because even technology is a tool and it is about your, and your family is your family, and there has always been harmony and disharmony in families that affect people no matter who they are, rich or poor, and no matter when they were born. So that is why with those, I do not see them as being as relevant to me- SM (00:03:17): Mm-hmm. Al (00:03:17): As some other things. But I never, I do not see it in those terms. I have never seen it in those terms. I have never seen... I have never really taken it seriously or seriously, I will put it this way, seriously considered the issue of baby boomers except that we were a very, very fortunate bunch of people to be born at a time when this country really had a lot of economic security and stability and that is really important. I think that in itself shaped people a certain way. But the kinds of people, they became either responsible or irresponsible that is about their character. SM (00:04:07): So you do not see, when we are talking the (19)50s and then the (19)60s and all these changes took place, would you see any difference between those two decades for people of your age? Al (00:04:23): No, and I think I judge people by who they are today, but all that matters to me is who people are. And you cannot really tell who somebody is going to become, but you can tell who somebody is. And I feel that a lot of people hide the issue of the (19)60s being this very high polluting time. But I have to tell you that I really do not think it was any more special and I think there were a lot of people who were fake idealists. Who when push came to shove and it was their term to be responsible, completely dropped the ball. I think the people that grew up in the 1930s and were shaped by World War II in the (19)40s had a lot more character development and a lot more character than this group of the 1950s. I say the 1950s as being a bunch of phonies. They are a bunch of spoiled brats by and large. And I think adversity makes people stronger and everybody has adversity in their own lives. And they have, you know, all of us have obstacles that we have to overcome. But, I think that for people to say this, I do not think World War II was the best generation. I do not think that Vietnam was the best generation. I do not think the people today, just because they are high-tech savvy, are the best generation. I just tend to think people are people no matter when they are born. SM (00:06:11): When you were in the service, what were your thoughts on your peers who really were trying to get out of serving? And there were many in college, but some outside of college too, and those who protested the war. What were your thoughts on them when you were in Vietnam and when you came home? Al (00:06:29): Well, of course when you are in the war, you do not appreciate it because they helped prolong the war because it gave the other side, and rightly so, that was always the target. If you look at the Bratislava conference and the Havana conferences that were met by the Russians and the Cuban and the Vietnamese to whip up the... And Vietnam learned that from what happened with France during the French period, the Communist always knew this. The Soviet Communist always knew this because, how they did mass mobilization. So I felt that the anti-war movement did not stop the war. They prolonged the war. But when I came back from the war, I had friends that were protestors and friends that were in anti-war movement. I myself had very, very mixed feelings about what was going on in Vietnam. Not because I was against defeating the Communist, but because they were bad guys. And they proved that after 1975 in Spain, that I felt that our country had betrayed us and our lives did not mean anything. We are just a bunch of harm. And that itself was something that was very hurtful. And I think part of the reason that there were so many veterans that had such a rough homecoming and that is what my books were about. SM (00:07:57): Right. Al (00:07:57): It was trying to reconcile the fact that people that went were just, was not that Vietnam veterans were like any different than anybody else. SM (00:08:06): Mm-hmm. Al (00:08:07): We have been tested in a way others had not been tested, uniquely, because of the circumstances. And there were some people that were destroyed by that. And then there were some people that became better people from it as well. And I am thinking if you look at the books, like everything we had, where I included pictures of people in the book. The purpose being of showing that everyone in this book could be your next door neighbor. And there were people in the book that had mixed feelings about being there while that they were there and when they came home. And it was a, I would say one thing, it was a very complex generation, that is for sure. SM (00:08:53): Mm-hmm. Al (00:08:53): And there was definitely a division between those who would be drafted and those who had the ability to get out of the draft. For me, I was an enlistee. I chose it. I volunteered and I knew it would kill me or change me, which it did. And it almost did both because of the illness that I contacted from the blood transfusion, it could almost both have changed me and killed me. But I am passing, passing through that second stage of it, on the second stage being that even now as I am entering the last quadrant of my life. That a natural cycle that I have been able to use what I learned as a young soldier to help shape me. I think in a way that is constructive that I never would have had if I had not been invested in that manner. SM (00:09:44): Yeah, you... Al (00:09:45): I cannot say I am grateful to Lyndon Johnson, but I am grateful for the experience because for me personally, it made a better person of me. There were other people that it destroyed. There were people in the anti-war movement, some of whom became better people from it, some of whom became bigger jerks because of it, some of whom it destroyed. If you look at the people that were involved in things like the Weather Underground and other radical movement, if you take it to the extreme. SM (00:10:17): Mm-hmm. Al (00:10:17): But my personal feeling is that people have a core character, and that character can either be augmented or diminished depending upon their life experience and how they deal with it. And also, I have to say, the mentors and the people that they have around them also makes me appreciate the work I am doing now, and accepting at the stage of my life that it is important for me to be a mentor. To pass on whatever I have learned constructively to the young ones who are going to be taking our place. And that in it for me, it includes very much centrally working in areas of conflict. So there is not many of us that can do that. Just because it is a very tough thing to do. Just like there are not so many people that can be cops and not so many people that can be firemen and not too many people that can be school teachers. All of us have a calling. And I feel that my wartime experience really helped bring that out of me in a constructive way. SM (00:11:17): You really answered question six and seven by responding because what did the Vietnam War teach you as a person, and what did the (19)60s, and (19)60s and (19)70s teach you as a person. So- Al (00:11:28): Yeah. SM (00:11:29): Those are, they are combined there. Certainly what you are doing now is very important. And with all the divisions that took place in America during the (19)60s and the (19)70s, have we- Al (00:11:42): So you are on question four now. Okay. SM (00:11:43): Yeah. We are on question four and then we are going to go to five. Well, all the divisions that took place in America during the (19)60s and (19)70s, had we healed as a nation from those many divisions or will most members of this generation, boomers that is, be going to their graves not healing like many from the Civil War, who was documented, did not heal? Al (00:12:04): I think as a society, the Vietnam War was the symptom, it was not a cause. The Vietnam War was a product of who we were becoming as a nation. I think before this generation ends, this country will be tested like it never has been before. Not since World War II, because of economic reasons, because of conflicts that are just over the horizon. Because of the ramifications of what has been happening with Iraq and Afghanistan of the war on terror. We are still in the process of becoming, and it is going to be not easy. And for the coming generations, they are going to have to deal with a much more difficult world. And for America, we are not going to be having it as easy as we had it before. And I hope this brings out the best in people. And I hope it brings out leadership that we do not see in this country now, because people will be tested. And when you are tested heavily, the best and the worst comes out of people. I am just praying that in this country there is more good things than negative things. But in terms of all the stuff, civil rights, movement, everything that was part of that period, that was something our country was going through in evolution. And the Vietnam War was part of the evolution. The Vietnam War did not create that. It was part of it. SM (00:13:32): Do you think the boomers failed, the oldest boomers are now 63 and the youngest are 47. Do you think as a generation that oftentimes you... Al (00:13:42): A generation, I think as a generation, it is a failed generation because this generation had the ability to do really wonderful things in the world as a nation. And greed, selfishness, the spoiled brat side of it. The parents who had been through the Great Depression in World War II, who did not want their kids to have to go through that and tried to shelter them from it created a group of privileged. A group, I am talking about people that would be naturally in leadership positions or would be, or they went to the best schools. They were given the best opportunities in life that they lost, they lost their soul because they got so caught up in being, quote "the world's only superpower", the world only economic superpower, et cetera, et cetera. And what we came out of it was basically, what came out of it was Oliver Stone. In terms of the bitterness of someone who had been through prep school, been through Vietnam, had seen people on both sides of the fence and was pretty much pissed off at everybody. I do not feel pissed off like Oliver Stone does, but I think that we had a real opportunity that due to our own selfishness and greed, we have thrown away. I feel very bad about that because it is going to affect the next generations. But hopefully the next generations will rebound and find the kind of character that was missing in the, that post World War II generation. SM (00:15:23): When we talk about that post World War II generation, it is not just America. It is in different parts of the world too. Al (00:15:29): Oh heck yeah. SM (00:15:29): Because when we talk about 1968... Al (00:15:32): Active leadership everywhere. SM (00:15:34): England, Spain, Japan, Germany. There were protests in some of the Eastern European countries, student protests, and they were the same boomers, but they were from different countries. Do you see that it is part of the boomer generation worldwide? Al (00:15:52): I think the world was going through certain stages of evolution, end of the industrial age, beginning of the high-tech age, beginning of globalism. We might see globalism rise and fall within our own lifetime because ultimately people cannot be homogenized. International culture cannot be homogenized if they are, I think that all these high-tech companies thought they would create one global society of consumers that would all act like Pavlov's dogs, the same commercial. SM (00:16:26): Mm-hmm. Al (00:16:27): And I think what is happening is we are seeing that there is a lot of resistance to that. Unfortunately, some of it is very violent resistance. SM (00:16:35): What we are seeing in Greece could happen in America, England. And maybe it is- Al (00:16:40): Oh heck yeah. SM (00:16:40): All part of it. Al (00:16:41): England is not as bad as shape financially as Greece and China might be worse off than both of them. So I mean, that is what I mean. These coming years are going to be not easy. And I am just hoping that we have people that can rise up in terms of leadership, good judgment, and have the ability to deal with this because it is, I think, going to become more and more unpredictably chaotic because overpopulation, food and water shortages. You can go right down the list of all the challenges that the world is facing right now. And God bless the coming generation because they are going to need it. SM (00:17:26): The only two boomer presidents we have had, of course, is George Bush and Bill Clinton. And President Obama tries to disassociate himself from this generation, but he is still a boomer because he was- Al (00:17:39): I agree with that. SM (00:17:39): -He was three years old when, in (19)61, is when he was born. Your thoughts on them as boomers, are they just typical examples of boomers, your thoughts on those leaders? Al (00:17:56): Well, they are a product of their time. They are a product of their generation because everyone is. So, for anyone to try to disassociate themselves, that political mumbo jumbo because you are a part of the historical period that you were born in and lived in, no matter who you are. SM (00:18:18): What has the wall done to heal the nation? I know what it is done to, I have been down there and I have seen what is it is done to vets. But I am not a vet, and so I cannot feel how you feel when you go there. Al (00:18:30): I think it is different things for different people. I was of the group of veteran who was against the wall being just attuned. I was one of the ones who spoke out and supported the position that Jim Webb and others took that there should be a flag and that there should be some kind of a statue that represents hope. And represents the perseverance, not only of the living, but even of those that sacrificed. So, I mean, my feeling was during the time of that wall that it was imperfect. It had, I think for a lot of people, it had a very positive result in terms of closure and in terms of mourning, in terms of trauma relief. I mean, for poor people who lost family members, et cetera. So in that regard, I cannot say anything negative about it. But I am very happy that the American flag, because it was pretty snotty of the person who built it. They called the American flag a mustache on their work of art. And she actually did. SM (00:19:40): Who is that? Al (00:19:41): On paper. Yeah, the architect who did it. SM (00:19:44): Maya Lin? Al (00:19:45): Yeah. SM (00:19:45): Yeah. Al (00:19:46): And she deserved to be put down for that. But bottom line is that regardless of the process, you have to look at what has been the result. And the result has been largely positive. So I have nothing negative to say about it. For me it is like, I do not know. I mean I am, I believe in moving on. Has everybody, have I been to the wall? Sure, everyone has. And but did it change my life. No, because my life has been in doing the work that I do. SM (00:20:22): Mm-hmm. Al (00:20:24): That is how I reconciled the experience. But for people who have not had that opportunity to go right back into war zones and work in war zones and find, and utilize both the negative and the positive into something that you hope is beneficial, I think that wall has been an okay thing. But I am really happy that there is a flag. And I am really happy that there is a sculpture that represents the hope of the living and so also reminds people that you can die. You can say people died for nothing, but if you can learn something from the experience, something constructive and something that moves, helps to move a generation forward. And they did not die for nothing. SM (00:21:10): When, you were probably there in 1982 when it opened, what was that day like? Al (00:21:15): No, I did not go. SM (00:21:16): Oh, you did not go? Al (00:21:17): I really, really did not because I felt that I had done my part with getting the American flag, helping to get the American flight included. That was enough for me. SM (00:21:26): Mm-hmm. Al (00:21:27): Because these people did not die in an abstract way. They were not in a car crash on some lonely road. SM (00:21:32): Right. Al (00:21:32): They died wearing the uniform of their country. And it was also part of still kind of my protest against the initial attitude of the people that made the wall. But I did not want to be there. I did not want to be there because I felt it was ridiculous that we had to do such a struggle to get the American flag there. But like I said, I have never publicly spoken out anything negative against it because I feel if it is doing a good thing, then more power to it. SM (00:21:59): I think you have already answered number eight, but when you think of the boomer generation, what are their strengths and weaknesses? Al (00:22:05): I think I have already. SM (00:22:06): Yeah. And you already said they are not unique. Do you like the term boomer? Is there another term that you think better defines a generation? Al (00:22:14): I have never really, I have never really used that. I just have always said post World War II. But if you look at the baby boomer generation, yeah, it is called the baby boomer generation. But I have never seen it that way. I just always looked at it as post World War II. And I do not know that there is another term that better defines it. SM (00:22:36): I think that... Al (00:22:37): Sure. Some historian someday will come up with something. Some historian will come up with a clever break. SM (00:22:44): I know that some say the Vietnam generation, others say the Woodstock generation or the protest generation, or the movement generation. Al (00:22:52): You have to think about how many people protested. It was not the majority. SM (00:22:56): Between 5 and 15 percent. Al (00:22:59): Yeah. It was not the majority. So it is the hype. Maybe it is the hype generation. It is the TV generation. How about that? SM (00:23:05): Hmm. Al (00:23:06): That is probably what that generation was, TV. SM (00:23:10): Yeah. That... Al (00:23:11): Came back from World War II. They had babies and they got TV. SM (00:23:14): That is right. Al (00:23:15): TV generation. SM (00:23:17): Now, one of the things is that this is definitely truthful, and you may agree with this, that this is a generation just does not trust anybody. And... Al (00:23:26): I would not say that. I would not say that they trust anybody more or less than the generation before them. SM (00:23:32): Mm-hmm. Al (00:23:34): And how also, why would not they trust anybody? Man. they were given everything. SM (00:23:38): Well, it is the lies that leaders told them, whether it be Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of China. Al (00:23:43): Oh my gosh. But think of the World War I guys coming back and doing the squatters things and then getting the shit beat out of them by MacArthur. SM (00:23:51): Mm-hmm. Al (00:23:51): Was that? No, that was not MacArthur. Who beat them up? SM (00:23:54): What was the... Al (00:23:55): They had? Remember they had the squatters. SM (00:23:58): Yes. Al (00:23:59): They had, and the guys that all the World War I guys that came back and had nothing. And then- SM (00:24:05): Yes. Al (00:24:05): -Different parts of the country they set up squatters areas. SM (00:24:08): Mm-hmm. Al (00:24:09): And got the shit beat out of them by the US Army. SM (00:24:13): Yeah. They came to Washington and made a, did a major protest in Washington, I believe. Al (00:24:17): They probably got beat up pretty good there too. SM (00:24:19): Yeah. But forget... Al (00:24:21): Did you ever see that movie? What was it about, the heavyweight champion, the Light Heavyweight Champion. SM (00:24:28): Raging Bolt? Al (00:24:29): No-no-no. It was a very positive movie about the guy during the Great Depression. He had to go on welfare and cause his career was over and then he came back and won the championship. SM (00:24:43): Was that John Garfield? Al (00:24:47): No-no. The movie was made a few years ago. SM (00:24:49): Oh, I do not, do not know. Al (00:24:51): Oh, that was a good movie. But the thing is, part of that movie was about the veterans going and protesting and getting beaten up. Because the movie was really about the Great Depression and about how this guy just would not be defeated. And even when people thought his career was washed up, he came back as a light heavyweight, won the heavyweight championship, and I think he got beaten by Joe Louis. That is when he lost it. But he held onto it for three or four years and then he went on to build the Verrazano Bridge. SM (00:25:23): Oh, wow. Al (00:25:23): Construction company built the Verrazano Bridge. SM (00:25:26): Huh? Al (00:25:28): At the end. It was real, if you guys tend to see it, it is a good movie. SM (00:25:29): Yeah, I will... Al (00:25:29): Trillion actors is in it. SM (00:25:33): So this issue of trust, it is, trust is often defined by political science majors as a very positive quality within a group because that means the dissent is alive and well in the, in any government, in any country. So it is not having trust is oftentimes a positive thing, not a negative thing. Do you agree with that? Al (00:25:55): Questioning? I mean, questioning. Not taking things that pays value. SM (00:25:59): Mm-hmm. Yeah. Al (00:26:01): I mean you could say that is part of it, but I think even kids, but kids today, well, I think the kids today get so caught up in testing. It is more impersonal. I think for, because it was TV rather than texting and rather than interactive games, violent interactive games, that it was much more personal. So I guess trust would be part of it. It seems that this generation, I am not going to generalize it, but I would say in terms of technology and the way technology affected them, it is more detached. And you could say that maybe the post-World War II generation was more attached. SM (00:26:47): Very good. Al (00:26:47): Because yeah. And also there were a lot of kids. I mean, there were a lot of kids born during that time so you always had a lot of kids to play with. SM (00:26:56): One thing is, I think I might have mentioned before is that there are more in the people in the millennial generation than there were in the boomer generation. Al (00:27:04): Oh, there are. SM (00:27:05): Yes. There are now close to 80 million millennials and there were 74 to seventy... You were never quite sure. 74 to 78 million boomers. Now millennials have passed them. Al (00:27:18): But you know what I think it is that there were less children per family because the larger number of kids happened. And then, you know what I mean? Families are not, I can tell you the neighborhood I grew up in with this neighborhood I live in now is not even close. And there is kids, but it is not like kids just coming popping out of the woodwork. SM (00:27:41): Right. What do these events mean to you? And you do not have to say, you already talked about the wall, so do not have to say anything about that. But yeah, real quick, what does Jackson State and Kent State mean to you? That tragedy in 1970? Al (00:27:54): Not very much. It really does not because that was not something that was part of my reality. SM (00:28:02): How about Watergate? Al (00:28:04): Yeah, I think Watergate affected everybody. That a president would be impeached. But if you look at stuff presidents have done then. I mean, Nixon was not so bad. There has been a lot worse guys that followed him. SM (00:28:18): How about Woodstock? Al (00:28:20): Woodstock was a party. SM (00:28:23): How about the hippies? Al (00:28:28): The hippies, the ones that did not get burned out? I mean, let us face it, the idealism lasted as long as long as it was convenient. And you did not have the responsibility of having to make a living. When you got up daddy's dollar. If you did not, if you were not dead from drug overdose. SM (00:28:49): How about the Yippies? Al (00:28:51): The Yippies. Ridiculous and troublemakers. SM (00:28:53): How about Vietnam veterans against the war, which was Bobby Muller and Ron Kovic and that group? Al (00:28:59): Well, I think more of Kovic and Barry Ramo and those guys. And I think we were very, those are the guys I knew best were like Kovic and Barry Ramo, and those guys. And I thought they were very, very determined and very sincere in what they were doing. And I have always liked them because I respected the fact that they were being true to their beliefs. SM (00:29:30): How about the counterculture itself, which was included dressed long hair, the drugs. Al (00:29:35): Contrary. I did not like the political part of those veterans against the war I despised. And I still feel that way about John Kerry. I feel Kerry is a big pony. SM (00:29:45): How about Bobby Muller? He is a very political person. Al (00:29:50): No comment. SM (00:29:51): Okay. Al (00:29:51): I will not comment on Bob Muller. SM (00:29:55): Okay. I respect the fact that he sacrificed for his country, but Bob is a politician that never made it as far as John Kerry. Al (00:30:03): A politician that never made it as far as John Kerry in that regard. But Kerry, I have always felt total opportunity. SM (00:30:10): How about Jan Scruggs and all his work with the Vietnam Memorial? Al (00:30:13): Well, I think he worked hard at, I think Jan came from kind of the humble background, and he had a dream and he had a vision and he worked hard for it. SM (00:30:23): And how about Lewis Puller? Al (00:30:26): I never knew him, so I cannot say. SM (00:30:28): I interviewed his wife yesterday. Al (00:30:30): No, I never met him. I knew people that knew him and really liked him a lot. SM (00:30:34): He was a really nice person. Very nice person. But just the term, the counterculture, you do not... Al (00:30:41): Well, I felt bad for him that he had so much angst inside of him. It was not directed to be negative to other people, but inside of him, he felt maybe it was from having a famous father. I mean, I have known other people that have had famous parents in different ways that it is hard for them because they always have to live up to something they feel that people are judging them with. And it is not an easy thing. And especially in the case of this where you have been through trauma, you have lost your physical mobility. And all I can say is God bless us all. I hope he has found peace. SM (00:31:20): The word counterculture, just what it stands for. Al (00:31:26): I think, yeah, there was truth to that word that people were seeking to find a counterculture within their own society, but it was not something that was very real. It was something that was a temporary fascination. SM (00:31:41): How about communes? There are still a couple successful communes in America today. Al (00:31:49): Yeah, the farm is a big one. Yeah, the farming communes, farming co-op. I mean, it is the spirit of the pioneers. SM (00:31:55): How about the Black Panthers and Black Power? Al (00:32:01): I do not know what kind of lasting effect they had. Black Power was different things, but when you choose violence as a means of political persuasion, it does not work. I would say the stuff that was done by those who were not violent had a lot more lasting effect. SM (00:32:19): How about My Lai? Al (00:32:22): My Lai was a tragic incident that was used to try to color an entire million people that served and most of whom served honorably and never committed any atrocities. I felt My Lai political. It was a political weapon that was used against the US government, regardless of the fact that the people that did it should have been prosecuted. There was no excuse for it, but I felt that it was used in a way that did far more harm than good. It did not bring back those who died. And it really helped the people who later massacred millions to be able to help. It has helped them to succeed. The same way I feel now that there is stuff happening in Iraq, it had the, what do you call the Abu Ghraib? What a horrible thing that was. And that empowered extremism. SM (00:33:23): Yeah. How do you deal with commentators? And I have read a couple books where things have been said is that we had prisoners of war, but there were no prisoners of war for the North Vietnamese or the Vietcong because the American soldiers handed them over to the South Vietnamese army, and they did them in. So there are no POWs. Is that the... Al (00:33:46): No, that was not the case. They had prisons full, and they let a lot of them go too. Yeah. No, that is not true. That is a... SM (00:33:55): That is a myth then. Al (00:33:56): That is a myth. SM (00:33:57): Well, that needs to be corrected. Al (00:33:58): There were times when people were shot on the spot in the same way there were Americans that were shot during the conflicts. And there were a lot of South Vietnamese, my goodness, that were just massacred by the communists. So I mean, it was a brutal civil war, but there were prisons full of war prisoners. SM (00:34:19): How about Tet? Al (00:34:22): Tet, I agree with the idea that it was a political defeat for the other side, but it was a military defeat. But it was a political victory because of the fact that Johnson and some of his generals believed that they had the war won. But in effect, if they had pursued it after that, maybe the war would have been over and it would have turned out very differently. But then again, going back to the reality of that time, that did not happen because that was the reality of the time. So that political defeat was part of the landscape. SM (00:35:02): What event in your youth had the greatest impact on your life at home and at war? You may have already mentioned it, just being in the service. Is there any one event that happened at home and then one... Al (00:35:19): No, I think it is a process. I really do believe it is a process. I mean, there are many events, but it is the evolution that you go through. That is the thing. It is the evolution that you go through. And as you get older, you realize it happens over a period of time. And some people might have the event, and I am sure there were some people that had an event that changed their life. But for a lot of us, it is a progression in a series of many events. And you cannot say which one was more important than another because they all had their importance or they all had their significance. SM (00:36:00): Why did the Vietnam War end in your view? And I think you have already responded the impact the college student protest had on ending the war, you felt it prolonged the war. Al (00:36:08): I mean, it was not because there was a lack of political will. But even beyond that, it is the same mistake they are making with Afghanistan right now. If you do not have a government that is credible, and you try to build a central government and you base everything you do on the credibility of a government that is not acceptable to its own people or at least a substantial number of its own people, then you are ultimately going to lose. SM (00:36:41): I have been listing three slogans from the period. These are quotes that I feel defined this post World War II generation. Number one, Malcolm X by any means necessary, symbolizing the more violent aspects of that period. Bobby Kennedy's quote where he says, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that are not and ask why not." And then symbolizing activism and fighting for injustice in a peaceful way, nonviolent protest. And then of course, the hippie kind of mentality, which was on the Peter Max posters, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." Which is kind of a hippie mentality. The only other people that have made comments is the quote, "We shall overcome." Symbolizing the Civil rights movement. And John Kennedy's "Ask, not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." Do those quotations kind of symbolize this generation, or are there some quotes or slogans you think symbolize it more? Al (00:37:51): I am not sure. I mean, all those quotes that you mentioned had their effect. In terms of dominant effect, I do not know. In terms of masses of people that were affected, I am not sure. Definitely TV and movies had effect. The music industry had its effect. And I think that there were a number of songs and slogans and whatever that had a, again, I look at things in terms of when you are talking about a generation, it is not just one thing, it is comprehensive. But the ones that you mentioned, yeah, I mean, they all had their impact on different people. SM (00:38:33): The last question is a lot of different people. And just to respond, it does not have to be any in depth response. It could be quick responses or you can say a few sentences more on people that had greater impact on you. Al (00:38:46): I would rather go through this list and rather than saying, no-no-no-no-no-no-no. I would say, okay, John Kennedy had an impact on everybody because he was the president. Bobby Kennedy was his little brother. Dwight Eisenhower represented stability. LBJ was president when I was in Vietnam, so I guess he had an impact. Martin Luther King affected everybody because the Civil Rights Movement. Ronald Reagan, made me believe that something constructive could happen in politics if you had people that believed in what they were doing. Gerald Ford, what I remember for him saying is, "Let us forget about those Vietnam veterans, they are just a bunch of troublemakers anyway." Richard Nixon, the whole Watergate thing had a negative impact on everybody. Abbie Hoffman Jerry Rubin to me were just a couple of rabble-rousers with the Jimmy Carter meant well and much better after being a president than while being a president. Let us see. Let us see. I think Woodward and Bernstein, for those of us that became writers, I mean that whole idea that you could be an investigative reporter, and you have to add Jack Anderson to that too, and some of those guys. The whole issue of the crusading investigative reporter, as a writer that affected, that affected a lot of us. Robert McNamara, I did not have any respect for him because he was a cold, intellectual, sending people to their death and really was before my time per se. Timothy Leary basically was a Pied Piper. A lot of people had drug overdoses because of him. The Weathermen were basically lost souls, and they did a lot of damage to people who were innocent and people that they killed, and they even killed themselves with bombs exploding and things. Earth Day, I think has probably more meaning now than then because of what is happening with the earth. Although the whole issue of preserving the Earth has always been a good one. Little Rock Nine, no-no. Free speech movement. Peace Corps always was seen as a very positive, and it was symbolizing the Kennedy era. Get out there, and do something for society. And international, do something for international society. Of course, all those television shows, in terms of lasting impact, I think Disney and a number of Disney programs have always had, for better or for worse. I mean, now I think it is more not just because they are older, because I have an eight-year-old daughter. And the Disney kids have not turned out so well. Where back in those days, and that is, I think, the biggest difference, where you had the image that Disney very carefully crafted of family values and kids and his actors and actresses not getting in trouble and all that stuff is very different than the Disney kids today. Not all of them, but at least some of them. The Cowboys Hopalong Cassidy. Well, the whole cowboy, I think the cowboy movies affected all of us because cowboy movies were morality plays. And you had this sense of right and wrong, the sense of almost like Puritan values in cowboy movies. At least in the series, there used to be TV series even up through Gunsmoke, I mean, there was always the sense of justice. And that if justice was not happening on a structured basis, that there would be those individuals that would ride in and save the day and create justice where justice did not exist. So I think Cowboy movies had a big impact, I think of all that, probably cowboy movies. SM (00:43:17): And certainly the Indian was always the bad guy too. Al (00:43:22): Well, Long Ranger had Tonto and Tonto was a good guy. SM (00:43:25): Let me change my tape. We are at 43 minutes. Al (00:43:32): And also Davy Crockett protected the Indian, brought them. If you remember Davy Crockett, Davy Crockett did not want to see the Indians treated unfairly. So anyway, I never had anything against Indians. And plus one of my favorite characters of all time was Hawk-eye of the Last of the Mohicans in the James Fenimore Cooper series. So anyway, for all of us, it is different. But for me, one of my, I always believed in you are with the underdog. And in the case of the frontier, the Natty Bumppo or Hawk-eye represented the sense of being close to the earth, being with the people that really knew it. And the British were the guys bumbling around and getting in all the trouble. The British and the French were the ones making all the trouble. Anyway, yeah. But that is for me. SM (00:44:42): And any of the other names or just did not want to comment on any more? Al (00:44:45): No, I mean, none of them really impacted me very much at all. SM (00:44:48): And you are not upset over the person like a Jane Fonda? Al (00:44:54): No. I mean, she is an actress. I think what she did sitting behind the North Vietnamese, I think the worst thing she did, I will put it this way. Yes, I will say a comment. The worst thing she did was attack Joan Baez, when Joan Baez was trying to call attention to the refugees and to the tragedies and the massacres that were happening after the war ended. I think what Jane Fonda did there was despicable. You can say during the war that she was naive, and she was angry at her father and all of this stuff. But what she did after the war when there were thousands and thousands of people dying, and she did not have the decency because she did not want to speak out and say she had backed the wrong people, that they turned out to be butchers. And at least I have always respected, and I do not see Joan Ba on your list here, but I have always respected Joan Baez because Joan Baez fervently pacifist, fervently against the war. But when she saw injustice, she spoke out. She is consistent. You respect the consistency and the integrity of one's belief. And so Joan Baez is to me, the other side of the universe from Jane Fondant and Tom Hayden. SM (00:46:10): Yeah. Okay. One last thing that I just want to add here. When Bill Clinton came to the wall in 1993, there was a lot of mixed feelings. And of course, Lewis Puller was one of the main reasons that Bill Clinton was there. He had been working with Jan Scruggs and they together invited Bill Clinton. And I remember we had a group of students that met with Lewis at the wall. And since the wall was about healing, they felt Bill Clinton should come, and Bill Clinton accepted. But there were some people that shouted at Bill Clinton. So what were your feelings about Bill Clinton coming to the vehicle? Al (00:46:46): I do not even remember that. I think they... SM (00:46:49): 1993, he came and spoke. Al (00:46:50): Mut I understand why they would do that in terms of their feeling the need for the healing. And he went, Clinton was the president. I mean, let us face it. He was the President of the United States, and you have to respect the office. So I fully understand why they did that, and I do not think there was anything wrong in them inviting him there. Whether it healed anything, I do not know. But I think the intent of what they were doing was a good intention. SM (00:47:18): Last question, what is the lasting legacy once history books are written of this generation, the 74 to 78 million when the last of them have passed on, and historians are writing about the era, the period, and the emphasis they might place on the generation as a whole, knowing that the oldest is still, so... Al (00:47:39): [inaudible] to look back. And again, we do not know how this era is going to play out because the most challenging times are still ahead, and most of us will still be alive. And we will see what happens to what we created collectively over the next, I think the next decade between 2012 and 2020 is going to be one challenging period of time. And that will determine in many ways what happened since the end of World War II. If I have to think about this, I mean, if I have to do a projection, what I would say, because no matter how we come out of it, and I hope we come out of it intact as a nation, and I hope we come out of it with the least amount of suffering by not only our people, but other people in the world, that this was an opportunity. It was truly an experiment unknown before in human history in terms of the idea of democracy, the way the Tocqueville described it, and the way that it was created here in this country. And the unfortunate thing is that the people who had the most privilege, the generation that had the most privilege, was the least respectful of it and almost blew it. I hope they will say almost blew it. I hope they do not say and blew it. SM (00:49:07): I think most people that look at America, it is like looking at an individual person. They are constantly evolving, dealing with the pluses and minuses of life. So a lot of people believe that America will get through it just like they got through the war and the Depression and everything else. But what could be the worst case scenario if we did not get through this? Because it is the world here now. It is not just the United States. Al (00:49:33): And it is a much smaller world. It is a much greater population. And we are more dependent on a limited number of technologies for our wellbeing than we have ever been. And The oceans no longer protect us because of cyber warfare, space-based warfare, computer warfare, everything else, economic warfare, that we are very vulnerable. We are vulnerable in ways that people are now starting to realize that far more vulnerable than we have ever been before. Plus, we have no industry left. So say for instance, if we faced a horrendous attack and we lost a lot of our infrastructure, if we lost a lot of our ships at sea, we would not be able to rebuild them. If we lost a lot of our airplanes, there are hardly any factories left to build them. And that puts us really... This is unlike Pearl Harbor. This is unlike that period. Even during the Great Depression, we still had factories intact, and it was not so expensive to build them. That is nearly impossible now. SM (00:50:33): Yeah, I have read some. And I will close with this, that I have read some terrible scenarios. And that is that many Americans working today will lose their pensions, and there will be no social security and they will have nothing to live on. Al (00:50:50): Well, and... SM (00:50:50): And so a worst-case scenario is such that... Al (00:50:57): External and internal. External and internal, and that could be devastating to the survival of the society. So again, I am with you. We hope in the evolution that somehow, we come out of a tailspin but it is not going to be easy. It is going to require a lot of sacrifice, a lot of teamwork. And the unfortunate thing about the generation that we are discussing is that there is an awful lot of selfishness. There is an awful lot of lack of teamwork. And it is something that, one, I am not a pessimist, but I am a realist and I am putting my faith in the next generation. But I think that our generation has blown it. I think that if we are going to pull out of this, it is going to be the next generation that does it. And that is why the mentoring and everything else, whatever we can find that is of value, that can be passed on to the ones who will be taking over leadership in the next 10 to 15 to 20 years. They deserve the best teachers. And maybe sometimes the best teacher is things not going well, so that they have to learn to be strong, and they have to learn to be resourceful. So I am with you. Let us pray for it and let us work for it. We are going to go through some tough challenging times if we pass through it. SM (00:52:22): Yeah, I agree. I think that the generation that followed the boomers, the generation Xers, never really liked boomers, and were in constant conflict with them and are part of the problem themselves, along with the boomers. But the... Al (00:52:38): I am not talking about them because... SM (00:52:40): Millennials are the ones we are talking about now, and they are a good group. Al (00:52:44): Those are the ones I have to thrive I am having the faith in. And I tell you, with my interns, I have had over 120 interns from all over the world, from at least 20 different countries. And I like those kids a lot. SM (00:52:58): That is good. Al (00:53:01): Good. And I do have, again, there is going to be tremendous challenges coming, but I feel that there is that proof of life and a proof of courage and a proof of intelligence that I see in these kids that, I mean, I am hoping that American kids, I mean, because I do not just deal with American kids, I deal with kids from all over the world, but the American kids, they are just right there with them. So again, it will be a little bit different. The solutions, the problems are global. Solutions have to be global. But I hope that the strength of what comes from our traditions and our systems are right there in helping to lead the way. SM (00:53:47): Well, thanks a lot, Al. I really appreciate the time you have spent. I know you are very busy and I hope the... Al (00:53:52): I am making out the proposal, Steven. You know how that is. This is the time that during this month of the months of April and May, if you do not get those proposals in, you are sunk for the rest of the year. SM (00:54:02): Right. Well, I... AS (00:54:08): Society was fragmented that there became stereotypes. But it is the same thing. I mean, if you went to the other side of it and you say, okay, people that were anti-war, what are they doing today? You find a whole panorama of people doing different things, some successful, some not successful, some having triumphs, others having tragedies. SM (00:54:33): The first question I really wanted to ask you is the organization that you created right now that you are working with, I think it is unbelievable. And the more I have read about it and what you are trying to do, I think, yeah, personally, I think you should be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize because you are doing some unbelievable things. And I do not know if anybody has ever nominated you, but you are doing unbelievable things. How did your experience as a Vietnam veteran, how does that carry over and link with your current work, the organization that you created? AS (00:55:12): Well, it is a motivation for sure because on one hand you can say there is the element of all the work I did on the history and understanding, not just my own small experience in Vietnam, but in terms of the bigger picture. And if you look at the books like To Bear Any Burden and whatnot, it gets into the intercultural aspect of it and how important that is. And especially in a much more interconnected local community, it is probably the most significant dynamic because people of different cultures are almost forced to have to deal with each other. And that can create some things that are very positive, some things that are very negative because root cultures do not change. They can adjust, they can adapt. They really do not change. But there are commonalities in human nature that you could bet you could work with in a constructive and positive. And so when this whole 911 thing happened, at the time I was working in Congress. And I had worked Afghanistan for a number of years and understood somewhat the nature of what was creating that conflict of civilizations. It partly was the fact that there were people taking advantage of very decimated society where the Afghans were very vulnerable because their families, their tribes, their plan structures were torn apart. More than half of the population was outside of the country because of the refugee situation and then a lot more than the Civil War afterwards. But I felt that there were many valuable lessons that I had learned starting with my own war time experience, followed by all the history work that I did, followed by other humanitarian work I had done working with refugees and human rights and whatnot. But then the experience with the Afghans kind of prepared me for what was coming down the pike with a billion Muslims. Because if you think about it, a lot of people always look at Islam in the Middle East, which is really not that big of a population. The much bigger Muslim population is in south and East Asia between Pakistan, India, and then that route through the Malacca straits into the Philippines. That is where Indonesia has a population of Muslims equal to the size of the entire Middle East or larger than the entire Middle East. And in the Philippines, it is the longest standing civil war, which is based on... I mean, actually it is economics and land holding, but it has the veneer of a religious struggle that is been going on now that the Sri Lankan wars appears to be over. It is the longest running war in the world. And so my feeling was because I had also been monitoring the peace process in the Philippines at the same time I was working on Afghanistan, that in the Philippines you had a much better chance of helping create models that would have an international implication between people of different cultures and religions than there would be in Afghanistan, because Afghanistan was too polarized. And also the way the international community was going, it made it more polarized because billions of dollars was going into a non-existent central government in a tribal Balkanized society, divided society of tribes, clans, families. And there was no chance of success with that. And whereas in the Philippines, you had longstanding arm struggle, horrendous poverty, but you had coherent families, clans, and tribes, and you could work on that. And so what we will do, we will do interventions work. We will do... AS (01:00:03): What we will do, we will do interventions work, we will do humanitarian campaigns and whatnot in other places. I felt there had to be a place where we could create a model that would be something that would go against the brain of the tactic that was being done. At the time I started this, right after 9/11 in 2002, because I felt when you have movements that are based upon revenge vengeance, that if you put more revenge, vengeance, and violence into it, you are strengthening the negative elements and you cannot possibly succeed. And the way that you succeed, if you look at those pictures on the wall, same kids within six months, the difference between that classroom and that classroom, you just look in the eyes. SM (01:00:55): Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. AS (01:00:57): Is that somebody cares that they are not alone. SM (01:01:01): Ah, agree. That smiling, it is very, it is like, "What are you doing here?" That kind of... AS (01:01:11): Because nobody cares. And to know that someone cares, not to do their work for them, but cares enough about them to want to see them be treated like human beings, makes it. And their own leaders will not do that. Even with their own leaders, there has to be a positive model showing. But it is not going to change unless the same way that a lot of these problems with these conflicts are generational. Over many generations, many generations of bad habits, I consider as bad human character habits. If you work with the young, you are also affecting the here and now. Because their parents, their grandparents are going to be happy the fact that their kids might have a future. They are still not going to break a lot of their habits because they are ingrained. But at least you calm it down to perform that you get the next generations can have a chance to develop better leadership and to develop more equitable societies. And that was always the plan. That it is long term. It is not something that you can do, go in, do a flash intervention, and introduce some computers, bring in a couple thousand sacks of rice, drinks, so much tea. That lasts for as long as the tea lasts or as long as the rice lasts. But if you can create a situation where people have both, and they have got the tools, they have got the educational tools, they have got the life of the tools, then they can build it. And that they can build it, they will defend it. SM (01:02:55): Interesting. My niece married a young man whose heritage is the Philippines. Marcelos, the Marcelos. They at Geneseo College and fell in love. And they just had their first child. He is the cutest little thing, little Ryan, he is six weeks old. But their family is rich. I am not talking about money. I am talking culture. I am talking about connections, family. I mean, they are all over the United States. I mean, it is a strong, strong family. Strong family. You mentioned that we did not learn the lessons of Vietnam. Who is we? AS (01:03:36): I think collectively as a society. But especially, people in leadership positions, whether it be in government or in the military. There is this idea that we do not have to learn history because we are number one. We are the strongest superpower and we make history. And there was like something, there was this kind of article, I do not know if you ever read this. But at one time in the Washington Post in an Outlook article, they were interviewing 20-somethings at the National Security Council. And the reporter asked, it was what Afghanistan asked, "Well, what do you think of Durand Line?" Because one of the problems there going to be the fact that the Pashtuns are divided. That will always be a factor. Going back to the British Raj, none of them knew what the Durand line was. And then the reporter then said, " Well, you guys ever take the time to read history?" And the response was, "Well, we do not have to read history because we are making history." SM (01:04:40): That is interesting. Yeah, because we had a person at our school that put the... Well, actually, an honor student from Great Valley High School. And we were in a meeting one day and she said, "When was the Vietnam War?" She thought it was before World War II. How did she get to be an honor student with that kind of a comment? So, the lack of history is... AS (01:05:03): But I think that with Vietnam, if you take it beyond into a broader context, into our development as a nation. After we achieved this role of being the strongest country in the West after World War II, Korea in the way was not really a test of that. It was like an extension of World War II, beginning of the Cold War. It was a bridge between World War II and the Cold War. But Vietnam was our first test as to how we were going to conduct ourselves as a leader of the West. And the ambivalence that we had within our own society to what direction we were going to take as a nation, whether we were going to be the international policemen, or guarantor of supremacy of Western societies picking up from the branch, not really colonizing, but kind of maintaining a kind of legacy. Even though you could say what we wanted with South Vietnam was where they would be independent, but they would be more leaning to the West. And whereas the North Vietnamese were, of course, leaning to the East with the Chinese and Russian influence. But it tested us in terms of what direction? We are the leader of the West now. And the Europeans cannot really compete with us. What direction do we take history? I think Vietnam represented that dichotomy that we felt as a nation, which is why there was the polarization. Why there was the, I mean, it was not just Vietnam. I think it was our society in general that now we are making history. We are no longer a part of an ongoing history. World War I was not our war. SM (01:07:17): Right. AS (01:07:18): The Industrial Revolution we were very much a part of. And it helped to shape us. A lot of inventions were made here that fueled the Industrial Revolution. But it is not the same thing as having your economy intact, your industry intact, after so much of Europe was destroyed in World War II. And we really had the leverage. Plus, television and other multimedia was largely coming out of the United States. So, we really were influencing and shaping culture on a very, very broad international, not just national, but international level. So I mean, I look at the Vietnam War as much more than just a little isolated thing. It was very much a part of our collective psyche and our development as a nation, as not an old nation, but an experiment. SM (01:08:16): How did you become who you were or are in terms of going to Vietnam? What was your high school experiences? Who were your role models, the people you looked up to that inspired you? And then what was that experience like in Vietnam? And what did you think about the students who were protesting the war back home? AS (01:08:44): Back then, I mean, it was more of an... You can look at it two ways. One of which is that there is a war going on. You serve your country. But also, the knowledge that it is going to change your life. And I think that for me, it was okay to do it because our country was at war. And I already had one of my friend's brothers die in the war and all of that. But also, it was something I knew would be help me to change me. SM (01:09:24): You knew that going in, you felt that going in? AS (01:09:26): Correct, that is why I signed up for the infantry. I wanted to be tested. And I knew it would be something profound, even though I did not know how it would be or how profound it would be. I knew that I would not be the same person. That it would draw out a lot, for better or for worse, draw it out early. SM (01:09:48): Did you go in right out of high school, or did you go to college? AS (01:09:51): Right out of high school. Graduated what, mid-June? And that would be six weeks later, I was released from training. So, it was a conscious choice. SM (01:10:05): How do you feel when... Vietnam, the two words that always seem to stir people, and particularly boomers, if you are in an audience with a group of boomers. And sometimes even younger people are upset because boomers have a tendency to oftentimes reflect on their life like nostalgia, whether it is good or bad. But I was leading into a question and I forgot what direction I was going here. My goodness. It will come back to me. I want you to talk a little bit more about your upbringing now. Because the Vietnam War, we talk about the people that went to war. So, many people were deferred. A lot of students that had maybe a little bit more money or had the right connections, they were deferred and did not have to go. And it was very obvious. But many of the others that did not have those... You wanted to go. AS (01:11:13): Yeah. I was- SM (01:11:14): But what did you feel about your fellow vets? In terms of... AS (01:11:19): To me, everybody was just people. I mean, I am serious about that. Everybody to me was just people. And because I came from a family of immigrants. And grew up in a place where my formative years, the neighborhood I lived in, in Cleveland, on the southeast side of Cleveland, a lot of people were factory workers and were very salt of the earth people. That it was the typical immigrant experience, first generation. We were first generation American. I was born here. My father was born in Italy. My mother's family came from there. That you do not have an attitude. You have to prove yourself. I mean, the attitude is that you do have an attitude, but that is that you have to prove yourself. That nothing is really given to you. You are not entitled to anything. That whatever you succeed with in life is something that you are going to earn because it is not going to be given. And I think that was the other thing too. Being in the military was a way of proving to yourself that you could withstand the tests and that you could eventually rise above it. I mean, because you think about most of World War II people, I mean, went to school on GI Bill after they served. A lot of people got their American citizenship by serving in the military because they were largely immigrants. First generation, they never gotten citizenship. SM (01:13:12): Right. AS (01:13:13): And this was like an extension, continuation of that. Because my family only arrived here in the 1940s. SM (01:13:18): Wow. AS (01:13:21): So, World War II was really defining because for that group that came in after the post-World War I group, they were part of post-World War I, that it would define them as being fully accepted as Americans. SM (01:13:43): Why did, in your opinion, I have gotten so many different opinion, why did we lose the Vietnam War? Now some people say we did not lose it. I have even had a couple say we did not lose it, we just did not put the effort into it. AS (01:13:53): Like what I said before is that we were not sure who we were as a nation. There were many different opinions. So, we were divided among ourselves. I mean, you can say whether we could have, what could have been or should have been, and how you interpret this or that. But the bottom line, I look at Vietnam as part of a process. I mean, we did not quote, lose it that we were a conquered nation. That we lost to a stronger country and hence, we lost our identity. But on the other hand, it was something, and even it did not resolve that question of who we were as a nation. It was just kind of an amazing thing. Now, what happened afterwards from as part of the progression, you can even say part of a process because a Jimmy Carter presidency was very different than a Ronald Reagan presidency. It was very good. SM (01:14:50): Yeah. AS (01:14:51): Because it has all been a process. And it has been a very fast-moving process going from what could be the richest country the world has ever known 10 years ago to now not being sure, most people not being sure if they can keep their houses. It is just so fast-paced. And there is a question of who are we? Because we are an idea. We are not... Because I deal with tribes that have long histories and that are interconnected. And loyalty to the tribe is first and foremost. We are not a tribal society. We are an idea. The idea of basically that you become some place that you can work hard, you can get an education, you can prove yourself, and you can achieve. Is that still possible? A lot of people doubt, they question that that is even possible anymore within a globalized society. The way the people that have been had the best educations in this country, basically turned against that idea by globalizing and then denying people living within their own homeland the opportunity to achieve middle class, or go beyond middle class if that is possible. SM (01:16:13): When you came home, I would like to know, first off, how you were treated? I have asked that to other people on both sides. Secondly, do you feel that the anti-war movement and the students who protested... And again, when I am talking about the boomer generation now, we are talking 78 million. But only about 15 percent of that 78 million was involved in any kind of activism. But that is still a large number. AS (01:16:43): Yeah, [inaudible]- SM (01:16:43): But- AS (01:16:44): ...number, but it is not- SM (01:16:45): ...how were- AS (01:16:45): ...a dominant majority. SM (01:16:47): How were your fellow veterans, when you were over there, were they aware of what was happening in America, number one? Because (19)67 is kind of the fine point. The Americans kind of supported the war through (19)67. Something happened, (19)67, (19)68, (19)69, (19)70 and (19)71, those five years. I mean, people, everybody went against the war. And people, families whose sons and daughters were from Ohio were against the war when you hit (19)70 and (19)71. AS (01:17:16): Quite a lot of people were not per se. A lot of people were like, "Okay, our country is doing anything, who am I to say?" And also when you came from communities where there were a lot of people that were in the military, there was not a hostility. Going to school, you would feel some of it. But it was all in how you carried yourself. It was all in how you handled yourself. But at the same time, it was a difficult period I think for anybody that came back, especially those of us that came back barely out of our teens, if we went in our teens. Because on one hand, you would experience events that very few people in this country have experienced, being in war. And especially, within your generation. And then how do you reconcile that with the general experience that many people that you knew? And even if it was not in your neighborhood, if you went to school, most of the people would not have experienced that. SM (01:18:29): Right. AS (01:18:30): There would have been very-very few people who had actually had prior military service before being in school. You are talking about 1970, 1971. And so, you had to inside of yourself deal with all of that. And I think anybody coming back from the war, I mean, you can look at now the amount of post-traumatic stress that there is in people coming back from, but again, we are talking about a situation here where it is multiple tours. They were short. In many cases, they have been short tours. But you never know when you were going to be called back. But I think the key thing is that when you are in wars that drag on, that appear to be unwinnable, how do you reconcile that with the sacrifices, even if it is not just your sacrifice, but the sacrifices where people die in a jam? And then you ask, "For what?" It seemed to be clear at the beginning of this current stuff that is going on, that this was revenge for 9/11. I think by now, people know the Iraq War had nothing to do with that. No one can explain the Iraq... I mean, I do not know who can explain the Iraq War except that the Bush family had a hard on for Saddam Hussein. SM (01:19:54): Right. AS (01:19:55): It had nothing to do with 9/11. It had a lot to do with oil. The Afghan War, I mean, it has been dragging on and dragging on now for eight years. And now they are saying, "Well, they did not... The most ridiculous quote I saw was the commanding general saying, "Well, we did not know it would be culturally offensive if we raided people's home in the middle of the night." That is culturally offensive anywhere. But again, maybe it is such that the all-volunteer force, people are so isolated from reality. And plus, these wars have dragged on for eight years. And people that have made careers of this with all the best of intentions, I am not going to impugn anybody's integrity, or their patriotism, or anything like that. But they lose track of reality. That is why I felt it was important for some of us that could be out in the field to show there is a different way of doing it, when you do not lose track of those common causes. The truth is that is one thing that I learned in Vietnam between being in a conventional unit and then being in a more specialized unit that was unconventional. That there is a common base of community. And that if you are away from a large group coming through and raiding people's homes or tearing down their fields, that you start, you can develop a relationship that is a constructive relationship, that is a positive relationship. And I felt that in these circumstances I felt full confidence not knowing what to expect. But there is a part of you that is at peace because you know it is possible. And there is very few of us that have been in that situation where we have been, and I say it did change me. I know what it is like to almost be dead. I know what it is like to be in a totally hostile environment and to maintain a sense of equilibrium. It is not an easy thing to do. And it is not like intervention for earthquake relief, or refugee relief, or flood relief where you are going in to set up emergency shelters for people. The stuff we are doing here we have to become part of people's lives. People who have never experienced anybody from like you from your culture, and where we have to learn the culture. Which is why I feel very comfortable with having a staff of mostly local people that you can establish though that common kind of instinctive bond with besides technical. So, that you know how to work with the local communities who are not very trusting of anybody. SM (01:22:58): That is beautiful because understanding culture has gotten us in a lot of trouble in our history. And obviously, Vietnam being one, not understanding the history of Vietnam all the way back, and who they fought for hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds of years, and understanding that. AS (01:23:18): And how you would be perceived. SM (01:23:19): Yes. AS (01:23:20): Even if you were different, they would still perceive you as they would perceive anybody else that came into their space. SM (01:23:25): Right. AS (01:23:26): And that is the one thing, that I had a high school principal, once people got to trust me, gave me a book on the, and again, I was learning, but she also gave me a book and said, "I want you to read this because my brother wrote this, and he is one of us." And it was a book, I will show you the book, on the history and the psychology of the art of the tribe. SM (01:23:49): Oh, wow. AS (01:23:50): To understand the tribal art. This is how they interact and perceive their relationship with the world. SM (01:23:56): Okay. AS (01:23:57): And it was the best gift anyone could have ever given. SM (01:23:59): And this was given to you in what year? AS (01:24:00): About, this was 2003. SM (01:24:02): Wow. AS (01:24:10): I understand why people relate to art in their environment. You can start to understand how they perceive things. And you start to develop a sense of, you learn it by interacting. But it is also nice to know the culture, the history, and warmth, the form of communication. So, expressions in the culture, arts, and society of the Muslims in the Philippines. In particular- SM (01:24:49): Oh, wow. AS (01:24:50): In particular, the tribe that I was working with, which is the fiercest tribe, the Tausogs, that everyone was afraid of because they were the fiercest warriors in Southeast Asia. But I know that when warriors... Warriors are determined people. And if they are focused, they are very-very focused. And if they can be focused in ways that are constructive, they can do incredible things, incredibly. Or, they can do incredibly destructive things. It all depends upon the relationship, the communications, and their identity. SM (01:25:26): I got to share, I got to write this. Well, I will write this down before I leave. AS (01:25:29): That is a rare book because it was only published in just probably a couple hundred copies. SM (01:25:35): Oh, really? AS (01:25:35): Through a university press in the Philippines. But I found it to be profound at that moment because it gave me a sense of structure. It was not just instinctive relationship, but a sense of structure in how people are conditioned to perceive their environment. And the one thing with this, the most helpful thing was understanding... Read the inscription here. SM (01:26:17): Dear Mr. Albert Santoli, please accept this book written by Ahta Suk. AS (01:26:23): Ahta Suk. SM (01:26:24): Ahta Suk, Dr. Abraham Sedeqi, my brother, is in token of one heartfelt gratitude for all your kindness and generosity that you will always have touched the lives of the, less privileged? AS (01:26:45): Yeah, less privileged. SM (01:26:48): People of this province. Very nice. AS (01:26:54): But the thing in here that really got to me, and this is if you are creating educational forms and you are introducing new ideas, is that if you look at their paintings, in their calligraphy paintings, calligraphy... Let us see what we got here. Space is always full. And if space is perceived as not being full, people respond in a negative way for whatever reason that is. So, and it also means it has to be full of things that they can relate to, that they understand. So, when we started working in the schools, I did not want to bring in educational technologies- SM (01:27:41): [inaudible]. AS (01:27:47): ...at the outset. I had to find ways by which you could replace things that did not work with things that did work. And part of it would be educational technologies. But it had to be able to fit in and keep the space full in a way that people would be comfortable with. So, rather than bringing in computers, educational TV, because a teacher would not be afraid of a remote control, a DVD, or a video that has core curriculum in schools that have no books, where the blackboards are so fucking decrepit that if you write on it, you cannot even read it. And you do not even have chalk. But if you bring an educational TV with a generator, because there is always brownouts. SM (01:28:38): Right. AS (01:28:38): There is not consistent electricity. A, you are not using up as much electric. So, you can be using medium-sized generator sets, which do not cost all that much. And you can afford it when you are working with a small budget. B, you are getting a full... We have this one program we were working with that was sanctioned by the Department of Education National that would bring the tribal peoples into a national curriculum so that their education would have value and they could find jobs. Starting with reading, writing, arithmetic, in the form of Sesame Street type puppets. And the kids loved it because they do not have TV at home. And here is a very entertaining, like Sesame Street with the kids here. And the teachers could feel they were in charge because they could put the tapes in and out and use the remote control. And they still were in control of their classroom. SM (01:29:31): And I was reading that we are living in a world of terrorism right now. But during the Vietnam War, it was not as much terrorism as it was not understanding one's culture, the Cold War. AS (01:29:48): Well, it was the threat of- SM (01:29:48): We were in a Cold War. AS (01:29:49): ...nuclear annihilation. SM (01:29:55): Yeah. So, would this have worked in that era? AS (01:29:57): Not in terms of big power confrontation, but in terms of some of the other things. I mean, you can look at things- In terms of some of the other things. You can look at things like the corps program, the Peace Corps. The Peace Corps was a part of that. You are right. Yeah. It is kind of like the Peace Corps, except that Peace Corps people cannot go into places that are just very hostile. We can be kidnapped and killed real easily. I do that because I am used to dealing in violent situations and just trying to have good sense and knowing how to work with local people. And I do not utilize, I will not use the word use because we try to respect everybody, we do not utilize expatriates as field staff because it is better to have field staff who know their own space, who know their own culture. SM (01:30:56): When you look at the generation that... You are a boomer; what year were you- AS (01:31:03): I was born in (19)49. SM (01:31:04): Yeah. So you are definitely a boomer, you are an early boomer. I know it is hard to generalize, but what would you think are some of the positive and some of the negative characteristics of your generation? I am probably speaking more about the activists. AS (01:31:18): I think there was a sense that all things were possible. There was an unbridled optimism for the most part. I think that depending on what kind of community you came from and what color you were, things were not so hard, you did not have to struggle so much. Education meant something. Now, I do not know, with my kids in high school and college, I do not know. Everybody's worried they cannot find jobs even with- SM (01:31:59): Oh, I know. AS (01:32:00): Well, you know, just coming up- SM (01:32:01): Yeah. I have students who graduated with teaching degrees that cannot find work. AS (01:32:06): And for us that is never a problem. SM (01:32:08): Yeah. AS (01:32:08): That is a big difference because we always had a sense of optimism and hope. When you start to lose that everything really has shifted. And what we have to do, working in the reverse process, with people that have not had hope since anyone could remember, is you are starting to try to build that stuff up. And it is coming down to, I am looking at what we are doing and what we are learning with the tribal people, that will have to be used here too. So I am looking in the future, and I am looking forward in the future to the methodologies and techniques that we are learning by working in these very tough environments that eventually we will be using it right here in the US with very collegial organizations that are community-based NGOs working in Washington and Chicago and New York and Philly. It will be the same, it is the same thing. How do you create hope, education, livelihood that has a meaning in places where people have lost a sense of [inaudible]. SM (01:33:08): You are going to do this in the US too? AS (01:33:12): Eventually, I am sure. SM (01:33:14): Philly needs it. It really needs it. AS (01:33:16): Because it really is about common [inaudible]. It really is connecting with people. And there are many good community groups here. I think one of the best things that happened to me in the course of... also defining how one gets into this work, there was a period of time when I was writing for Parade Magazine when the Chief Editor, Walter Anderson, said, "You are not going to do any military stories. You are not going to do any foreign stories. I want you for a period of time," it was about two or three years, "Where you are doing nothing but localized stories." When Walter had a vision he goes, we have 100 million readers at Parade. Any story we do becomes a national role model. So I want you to get out there and find community-based programs that are exemplary programs of people that are heroes in their community. And you go out there and you find them. And whether it is a cover story, not a cover story, it does not matter because a lot of people are going to see it. And we can do something really good with showing people that are making a difference in their community. And other people communities will see it and they will adapt it however they will, but it creates hope. And at first, I was a little bit resentful because I would rather be out doing the other stuff. But the more I got into it, it really taught me so much. And it taught me about leadership because I was watching people that were good leaders. It taught me about what does not work in terms of politics and how it impacts on social and humanitarian programs. And usually the biggest enemy of the community organizers who are not politicians, we are the politicians because politicians want people to be dependent on them. And so a true community organizer is an antithesis of a politician if they are trying to help create independence within a community, self-reliability, self-sustenance. Because then they become the exact enemy of the people that are saying, here, take your monthly check and then come back and see me, rather than saying, here is an education program, here is how we are going to improve this housing project. We are going to do a community-based garden out in the... I did one, it was a community garden in the South Bronx where they were doing hydroponic farming. They were farming in the South Bronx, Puerto Ricans and Dominicans, and selling their [inaudible] because the Bronx is still a farming district. A lot of people do not realize that. SM (01:35:57): No, I did not know that. AS (01:35:58): But the Bronx was and still is zoned as a farming area. SM (01:36:05): I have been there to do some interviews. I did not see any of that. But that is really interesting. AS (01:36:12): And so this guy, he was a local businessman, Hispanic guy. I am sure he was not totally aware of that. And that was completely irrelevant. But he saw that hydroponics work and he also saw there was a trend to a lot of restaurants running natural ingredients so they could grow all kinds of herbs. Just used cars or little vans, truck them around the city and create employment for people in the neighborhoods. So that was a pretty cool story. SM (01:36:42): And you have heard of Benjamin Barber, that Benjamin Barber. He used to be at the Walt Whitman Center at Rutgers, and I think he is at the University of Maryland now. But he has written a lot about the importance of understanding that we have a tendency to want to have strong presidents and strong leaders when in reality our nation will be greater if we have a strong citizenry without the need of a strong leader. Now we need a strong leader like FDR in times of crises and President Obama- AS (01:37:11): [inaudible] people would be- SM (01:37:12): But basically, he is saying, we always need, more than we need a great president, we need great citizens. And that is- AS (01:37:19): Education is critical to that. SM (01:37:20): Yes. AS (01:37:21): People have to believe that education has to have a purpose. And that is what I worry most that we are losing in this country. We have already lost it in the inner cities. SM (01:37:31): See, I think there is some, and I cannot pinpoint it, but I think there is some... we had Dr. Botstein on our campus, and he has been a very critical president of Bard University, a very talented person. And he has been very supportive of elementary education, that elementary education is working in the United States, but secondary education is not. And he advocates ending the senior year, and I am hearing more and more of ending the senior year and letting them graduate at 17. But he basically said that the universities have somewhat failed in many respects because we talked and we were wondering, of all those students in the (19)60s who got deferments because they went to become teachers instead of going to serve their country, but they had no interest in teaching, the effect- AS (01:38:20): And did not stay as teachers. SM (01:38:21): And did not stay as teachers. What has the effect of the education on those students- AS (01:38:28): I never thought- SM (01:38:28): Because I know when I went to Binghamton, members of my intermural team, they had no interest in being teachers. And that is frustrating. Quick question here on the [inaudible] and the (19)60s generation and boomers as a whole, I think even Vietnam veterans too, felt that they were the most unique generation in history, that they were going to be the cure to all these- AS (01:38:53): Maybe the most pampered. SM (01:38:55): Most pampered. But when you hear, and I know you have heard this before, there was a feeling as a generation that they were unique. They were different than anything before and anything that will follow. AS (01:39:07): Well, the thing is, the opportunity that was there and the wealth that was there, the creature comforts that were there was unique. I mean, I am sure that throughout it, throughout antiquity, that there were periods of times, maybe at some point Rome had that at some time, some place in Greece had that at some point, parts of China had that during different kingdoms that there was a uniqueness because they were so better off than any other kingdom or any other country or any other population compared to how the rest of the world lived. And we did have that uniqueness. I mean, we still do. Even though things here are not as easy as it used to be, from what I see in the places where we are working, other places I visited as a journalist and whatnot, we still do not have it so badly. But what worries me is what is coming down the road. SM (01:40:05): See something that you are talking about here, boomers are going to be supposedly changed retirement. I retired to write my book, but I do not plan on being retired. I know a lot of my friends do not either. A lot of people do not look at sitting on a beach and maybe taking a trip once a year or whatever, go and see the grandkids, as the fulfillment of one's life in your organization. With the boomers retiring and the attitudes that so many of them had that they wanted to be the change agents for the betterment of society, that might be a group that can link up if they know people like you exist. AS (01:40:55): Communicating what we have learned and what we are doing. And that is one thing we had not done so well, partly because I wanted to make sure we had something that was real. And also because trying to do that work in difficult places and create the model, I could not be doing everything at once, including administration, which I have to do fundraising, we do not have government money. SM (01:41:19): You are nonprofit? AS (01:41:20): Yep. And we do not have government money. Most nonprofits will survive on government. We do not have government funds. So I have to be continually fundraising and then continuing budgeting to lower than a T. We are in a constant month-to-month crisis as to how we keep things going. And on top of that, as a part of my wartime experience, I found out in 2005 that I got a bad blood transfusion. One of the times that I was wounded and my liver was gone, just about gone, and so you would not believe this, but in September I had very serious surgery and almost lost my life on the operating tank. And that puts a whole other perspective on things as a feeling of responsibility that I do not know how much longer I have to live. I hope it is another 30 years, but it might not be. I have had doctors tell me in the past, I had two or three years to live. SM (01:42:32): Because of your liver? AS (01:42:33): Because of my liver. And here I am, you can see my energy, it is pretty good. And except for this little eye thing, which is unrelated to the liver, I think it is the commitment to the work that keeps going strong. SM (01:42:49): Oh, I believe people that care about others. This leads into my next question, which is about healing. We took a group of students to Washington about nine years ago to meet Senator Aman Musk. He was pretty ill at the time. He passed away with a very sharp period. He had been in the hospital and he had watched the Ken Burns series. But the students came up with this question because these were students who were not boomers. And the question they wanted to ask is when they looked at 1968 and the protests in Chicago and the people being smashed over the heads and all that kind of stuff, and the divisions even within the hall itself, the question they wanted to ask was, have we healed as a nation? And how close were we to a civil war in 1968 with all the divisions? And we had riots in the streets and the assassinations of two major figures, a president resigning and even though we had the walk on the Moon which was a hopeful thing, I think that was a blessing at the end of the year. But do you feel as those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who were white versus black, all the divisions and all the things that were happening at that time, do you think that we still have a problem in this nation with healing, particularly within the boomer generation? I do not think the generations [inaudible] really care, but I am talking about the boomer generation. Is there an issue of healing here? AS (01:44:25): I think it depends on the individual. I really do think it depends. I think in large part that there was a lot of evolution that was done in terms of, if you look at the positive trends in the social elements of things in regard to racial acceptance and a number of other things. But again, it does not happen overnight. It is a generational process. So you figured from the time of (19)68, those assassinations, to now having a partially black president given his mixed race, still most people considering him black, that is from 40 years. So it is like two generations. SM (01:45:09): Yeah, we are the Generation X and millennials. AS (01:45:11): So that is why I am looking at what we are doing here. And again, it is something that we know from our own experience that it takes a couple of generations to get something on track. You plant a seed, you try to stay with it the best you can. There is going to be all kinds of turmoil along the way because that is life. That is human nature. But it takes a little bit of time. But I think that there were a lot of very positive trends and changes that happened. And even with the negative things you could say about the military, the military was a social leader in starting with things like citizenship and bringing people together to the issue of integration. SM (01:45:59): Oh yeah. Harry Truman and that whole integration. AS (01:46:03): And then a number of other areas as well that I am sure somebody in the future will look back and say, well, I do not think it is good for young mothers to be sent into combat. I think that is wrong. Because it is for a number of reasons. One is just because you should not separate a child from a mother unless you have desperate situation where you are defending your homeland on your own soil and everyone has to defend it. But also because it hurts morale. It hurts morale terribly. And I think it is very countless. And I think the one thing that concerned me after 9/11 was that we would become vengeful ourselves. I have been dealing with Taliban for six years and saw the way that vengeance was being turned into just a horrendous psychotic poison. And the way boys being separated from their mothers, because that is a part of the evil psychology of the Osama bin Laden and the Prince Turki al Faisal and the [inaudible]. The guys who created the Taliban, they know human psychology. These guys were trained in the best schools in England. They are not idiots. SM (01:47:15): What is interesting, one of my last efforts at Westchester was a day and a half conference called Islam in America. And we brought major figures in and I wrote a grant, I did a lot of things to make it happen with a very small committee of three faculty members and three students in the Muslim Student Association. And I could not believe, we were packed. Every session was packed, but security was all concerned. And also the Jewish community was out in arms that we were doing a program on understanding Islam. There was nothing in this program that was supposed to be attacking Israel. It was simply understanding the faith and understanding Islam, even though some of the people they were attacking, they checked the backgrounds. But I can understand again about the culture. It is not understanding a culture. And even if you are a person who wants to educate students about the culture, you are an enemy because you are not supporting our culture. AS (01:48:17): The Middle Eastern thing was the worst. SM (01:48:19): Senator Muskie responded by saying that he felt that we had not healed since the Civil War. And he did not even talk about (19)68. [inaudible] Civil War. And anybody that goes to Gettysburg like I do, because I feel I have to understand war, and I go there to understand it because I did not serve and my dad did in the Pacific. But I have noticed that on the southern side, there is a lot of flags [inaudible]. Nothing is ever left at the northern side. And I am trying to figure it out. I am trying to figure it out. And then I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly last week and she said the south has healed but the north has not healed. I disagreed with her. She says, oh no, the south has healed from the Civil War but the north still has a problem. So I am getting all these different perspectives on the healing. And I think of when I talk about the healing, I was thinking about the Vietnam Memorial. I made a point of going to the wall since I got to know Lewis Puller. Lewis met with our students in November before he committed suicide the following spring. And the wall means a lot to me. But I think it is very important for our generation. I think Jan Scruggs' book "To Heal a Nation" is right on. But I wanted to ask you, as a Vietnam veteran, what does the wall mean to you as a veteran? And I know a lot of vets still have not healed because I had been there and I have experienced it. But those that were the anti-war people on the other side, I am wondering if there is guilt feelings that they did not serve. AS (01:50:02): I think it is [inaudible] to the individual. When that monument was being planned, I felt very strongly that it should not just be a tombstone because a tombstone is about you do not heal from it. You agree. And I felt it was important and I very strongly supported it at that time. Jim Webb was the guy that was most up front. But I supported very much having an American flag there and also to have something else that would be about life. I felt it was important that life be a part of it. Not just death, but life. Because there were 55,000 that died, but there were over 2 million who survived. And it should be something when healing takes place, it is the whole picture. It is not just a partial picture. Grief in itself. I know that there is people, I know that there were some, the friends of the Vietnam Memorial, nice people, really nice people, I do not know if they still have a station down there, but they used to and they had grief counseling, they had nurses that were specialists. And I think all of that is great. But I also felt that there should also be, the way that you deal with grief is life, is to know that life continues and that there is some things you cannot do anything about except cry because it happened. You are going to have the emotions about it. Because it is very real and it is very deep. But life has to go on. And so with that, back then, I did not have a problem with the wall itself being built, but I felt it should not just be in place like a cemetery. We [inaudible] as a cemetery but there should be something about it that put it in perspective. So I was really happy that the statute and the flag were there. Because it should be about transcendence and transformation, the optimism of the boomers. But I believe in transformation. I believe in transcendency. SM (01:52:17): So I am not in your shoes, but it is a great quality that Vietnam vets have, and that is brotherhood. I see it. I know some vets that I know in Philly, some of the top leaders in Philly wish that some of the vets would quit wearing their outfits from Vietnam because they are gaining weight and all that other stuff. And they wear suits and that is the only thing that they love them. But they are tired, they wish they would stop wearing that stuff. But I have been to the wall now for 14 some years, since Bill Clinton gave his speech. And they can be whatever they want when they come to the wall. They identify and they all have people on that wall they lost. And I just admire them. I admire the brotherhood, I admire the caring. It is something I wish you could just bottle and people put it on their breakfast every morning. So not only that we did not have another war. AS (01:53:19): It was about adversity. And unlike what you could say, what happened in certain ghetto environments, it was a broader adversity because it was one part of the American society that was not small, it was a minority who did feel isolated. And even for Joe McDonald, Joe was in the Navy and I think Joe felt that too. Even though he became a symbol of anti-war and this and that, he still was very much a part of feeling a part of brotherhood. SM (01:53:57): He served early though. He served- AS (01:53:59): But he still felt a part of it even though he then experienced and got involved with the other part of that experience. But there is a sense of that. You still have it in you because you did have the experience. And I think that is a part of it is that we are thinking about with everything we had and my books, especially everything we had, if you look at the beginning of the book, the preface, I said, we do not want to parade, a monument, or mercy, or pity. We were simply people like any others. Except that what we experienced in its own way, was prepped. And we cannot talk to our families about it. Because if you have experienced, especially those of us that were combatants, I know a lot of World War II guys when I was growing up that would not talk about their experiences. SM (01:54:54): Why did not you talk? AS (01:54:56): Because it is not the kind of thing you share with people because it is tough and you do not know yourself because you have all kinds of people when you are involved and kill or be killed. And it is within a structure, you have all kinds of mixed emotions because you know how to survive it because you have not fully crossed the line like someone who commits an act of murder out of passion, and you can justify if you are fighting people that you could say are wanting to take over the world and do bad things. But still there is those common bonds. We are still as a human being with a conscience, even if you kill somebody that is very bad or you could say whatever the case may be. But you still have gone beyond a line that is a part of our social convention and our emotional convention and how you reconcile that is not an easy thing. And I think that is a root of PTSD and all that stuff is how do you reconcile [inaudible]? And especially if you are young, Vietnam had the youngest level of combat, youngest age combatants. The average age was 19, 20 years old. And you know from working with students, 19 or 20, for your own kids, when they are 19 or 20, when you are going through, it is like everything is just going to happen. SM (01:56:34): Yeah. The first Vietnam vet that I knew was in my very first job at Ohio University. And he was a father, I think one child or two. He was working at Ohio University, the Lancaster campus outside of Columbus. And he had a little office. So Ohio University was a little ahead of the game here, but the students never went to say hi to him, none of them. And I was close to all the students because we had a campus of 2000. But I got to know him. So I was sensitive about the war anyway- AS (01:56:59): Oh, he was only 2000 students? SM (01:57:01): The Lancaster campus. AS (01:57:02): Oh, okay. SM (01:57:02): I worked at the branch campus, which was outside Columbus. And that campus was the most radical of all the schools because they purged from 18 five to 13 five in a year and a half. Some of these I read a book on. They purged all the liberal students out of the campus in Athens. Ron Kovic actually came there and he was arrested just for the mere fact of being there. And it was a very conservative community. And where they- AS (01:57:31): Were they West Virginia? SM (01:57:32): Yeah. And I can remember when Ron Kovic came, I actually went down to see him speak, but they would not allow him on campus. So they just booted him off and they took him off to the prison. They did not care if he was in a wheelchair or not. He was a radical. But what are the other, I know you probably- AS (01:57:50): I have to go, it is past 6:30. SM (01:57:51): Yeah. AS (01:57:52): I need to get home and make sure the kids have eaten. SM (01:57:56): Yeah, sorry. Could we continue this with another... Because there is a lot of questions like personalities and I had a whole section here, but- AS (01:58:03): A part of the experience. But it is not the dominant... I would not be doing this if it was not for that. So I cannot say it was not the dominant experience. SM (01:58:13): If you could sign that for me. Just [inaudible], your name and today's date. I wish I had my other books, but I do not have a [inaudible]. I had three of your four books. AS (01:58:28): But I am more concerned right now about what direction things are going in. I am worried we are going to go broke and on a lot of different levels, forget who we are- SM (01:58:41): It is interesting, a person that I interviewed said to me when I asked that question about did we have a second Civil War, of course they did not live at those times, but this person said, the times that we are living in today are comparable to the Depression and the Civil War. I thought, whoa, and because we have such a potential for people to lose everything and when people lose everything, violence can start, people place blame. The reason why I am in this situation is because of this person or that group or the immigrants are the problem or the people from Mexico are the problem or the taking the jobs over to China are the problem. And or blaming the whole boomer generation. AS (01:59:30): Well what concerns me is the big one is coming. Because inevitably that is what it leads to. And it is not the stuff now. The stuff right now is an agitation. I am more concerned about the fight over food shortages, will be continuing because of low weather patterns changing and water shortages become more profound. And when you have more competing countries that are fighting for the same oil, gas and other things we are like during World War II or right before World War II... like during World War II, right before World War II, the Depression. Then the competition and the conflict between the emerging empires like Japan and Germany, reconstituting its strength against the West. And I am very concerned we are going into a similar period right now. SM (02:00:23): Do you think Japan could eventually come back to the- AS (02:00:26): No. SM (02:00:26): Okay, because- AS (02:00:27): But Russia definitely- SM (02:00:27): A lot of people are- AS (02:00:34): And China. And China, most definitely. I am watching it happening in Asia. And there is... Rivalry is very strong. And the thing that I am looking at is instability among the smaller countries. And if there can be some coherency and some stability among the smaller countries, it might have influence the larger countries. But if there is instability and weakness of the smaller countries with the resources and other countries believe that they can take advantage of it, it will lead to big power conflict. That is my historical perspective on that. SM (02:01:12): Everybody predicts that the problem will end up with Israel and the Middle East, and Palestine or whatever the issue might be. But the- AS (02:01:22): That is a flash point for sure. But the bigger problem is going to be... China right now is very full of itself. And they believe that they had a couple of bad centuries. And there are the resources to sustain everything. Plus, and on top of it, there is the hold onto a system that is an intolerant system, and that the elite, not every Chinese person, but the elite, that whatever the 1 percent that controls the dominance of wealth will get very a vicious and be looking for outside enemies. I mean, here we have a problem with the potential of emerging police state. And with higher technology, that makes it a little bit easier, because it is more easy to monitor people. That worries me a lot. And also, now our dependence upon private security groups and vigilante, not vigilante, but mercenary groups, to be doing national bidding, it undermines democracy and [inaudible]. SM (02:02:33): Oh, we had a discussion just before I left. It was not a program, but some of the top scholars at a school that was at a luncheon. And there was a fear that something will happen to President Obama, and that whoever the powers are that... Anybody that threatens the money market or the money has to be eliminated. And, of course, the China situation is something we know. And historically they have hated the Japanese. And the question is, will they destroy them? And they do not like Vietnam either. And the two historic enemies of China, even though Vietnam and China were linked, is Vietnam and Japan. They do not like... I know there is a relations... They do not like each other. AS (02:03:29): The Vietnamese, right now are a threat. SM (02:03:31): They might have resources there, but they want to take over. AS (02:03:35): They will take it. They will take it in the north. They will just take it. But with Japan, they owe some heavy, heavy vengeance too. I would not be comfortable right now if I was Japanese. This is going to get real interesting these next five or 10 years. SM (02:03:54): Will the Germans ever forget that we beat them either? AS (02:03:57): The Germans have largely gotten over it. I think it is partly because there has been other... Like, Russia was always the overriding shadow. Maybe if it was not for Russia it would be different. But Germany has been more aligned with the West because of that. SM (02:04:16): Russia might be heading... Of course we see some changes happening now with a- AS (02:04:20): Sliding back. SM (02:04:21): Yeah, sliding back. They do not like what is going on in Eastern Europe. AS (02:04:37): Well, like I say, I am hoping that the hard times bring upon us greater, better leadership, and that also there is a way of sustaining some of what is- SM (02:04:49): Three more pictures. And then I will let you go. AS (02:04:51): Okay, some of what is remaining of the things that led to the optimism of this country. Actually, there you go. Oh, that is fine. SM (02:05:08): The one thing I was going to ask too is when you think of... There is two things that happened in the (19)80s that really stand out when you think about Vietnam. It is when Ronald Reagan came to the presidency, I interviewed Ed Meese last week, and Ed says, "I do not remember him saying that." He does not remember. I have got to find the speech where I read it. But it is basically saying, "We are back." And it was a reason. He is going to build the military up and he is going to do a lot of different things. That is what it really meant, that is what he thought. AS (02:05:38): Well, I remember when he said that Vietnam was a noble cause. And I thought that was a really radical but a good thing to say. And it was also during the Iranian hostage crisis, and the country was different, was ready for a different view of itself. SM (02:05:58): Right. AS (02:05:59): That Iranian hostage crisis also was a flashpoint history that altered our perceptions of ourselves. SM (02:06:08): I was taping the whole thing. AS (02:06:10): So, again, if you are looking at all of these things, that historical progression. Remember, the other one was the Vietnam syndrome is over, which is what George Sr. said. And a lot of people said, "Oh, that is ridiculous," because every time we had to do something in foreign policy, we are still talking about Vietnam. And whenever you bring up the word Vietnam, or the word quagmire, it sends shivers down... Did I... SM (02:06:34): [inaudible]. AS (02:06:35): Yeah. I actually go up New York Avenue and get back on the highway, and... That is the only thing I know. No, not that [inaudible]. You want to get to the... Are you talking about the 30th Street Station? Or not 30... SM (02:07:18): [inaudible 02:07:23]. AS (02:07:18): Can you point me on how to get there? SM (02:07:18): [inaudible 02:07:32]. AS (02:07:18): Yeah. [inaudible]. Should I follow you, or? SM (02:07:18): [inaudible 02:08:02]. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Albert Santoli Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Santoli, Al, 1949- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Authors; Bronze Star Medal (U.S.); Purple Heart; Santoli, Al, 1949--Interviews Description An account of the resource Al Santoli is a writer and a former combatant who served in Vietnam and earned a Bronze Star for valor and three Purple Hearts. He has also served as a policy oversight expert in the U.S. House of Representatives. He is currently teaching at the Institute of World Politics. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-05-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.108a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.108b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 147:37 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2d6ab8c9dc1b4369a916af82d51ffb90.jpg c7df4b924a7310b7fa787d52e2b1909d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9e2a81ac52c7c2eccd92994bb492e38f.mp3 4d76180b5a343635eae9b1e41cd4a583 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2009-08-06 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sally L. Satel Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Sally Satel is a practicing psychiatrist, author and lecturer at the Yale University School of Medicine. Dr. Satel focuses on mental health policy as well as political trends in medicine. She earned a Bachelor's degree from Cornell University, a Master's degree from the University of Chicago and an MD degree from Brown University. She completed her residency in psychiatry at Yale University. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15107,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16382457],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,1447960],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Sally Satel is a practicing psychiatrist, author, and lecturer at the Yale University School of Medicine. Dr. Satel focuses on mental health policy as well as political trends in medicine. She earned a Bachelor's degree from Cornell University, a Master's degree from the University of Chicago and an MD degree from Brown University. She completed her residency in psychiatry at Yale University. </span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 69:42 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Hippies; Bill Clinton; George Will; Mad Men(TV Show); Baby boom generation; Beat generation; Middle class; Generation X; Activism; Young Americans for Freedom; Nineteen sixties."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Hippies; Bill Clinton; George Will; Mad Men (TV Show); Baby boom generation; Beat generation; Middle class; Generation X; Activism; Young Americans for Freedom; Nineteen sixties.</span> Subject LCSH Psychiatrists; Authors; Lecturers; Yale University. School of Medicine; Satel, Sally L.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Sally Satel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Satel, Sally L. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Psychiatrists; Authors; Lecturers; Yale University. School of Medicine; Satel, Sally L.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Sally Satel is a practicing psychiatrist, author, and lecturer at the Yale University School of Medicine. Dr. Satel focuses on mental health policy as well as political trends in medicine. She earned a Bachelor's degree from Cornell University, a Master's degree from the University of Chicago and an MD degree from Brown University. She completed her residency in psychiatry at Yale University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-08-06 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.109 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 69:42 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c744ac236e81e9f9548fce1f078fbe08.jpg a9cee511d808117188ba99977924f6da https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/60b7bb560ba33744a31a118b1a5f539c.mp3 565bafcf3e12460be5053f77187ded3d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2008-07-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thomas J. Scanlon Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Thomas J. Scanlon, Benchmark's founder, and the president was among the first young Americans to serve overseas in President John F. Kennedy's Peace Corps. He published a memoir of his Peace Corps experiences in Chile entitled <em>Waiting for the Snow</em>. Scanlon graduated magna cum laude from Notre Dame. He has a Master's degree in Philosophy from the University of Toronto and a Master's degree in Public Law and Government from Columbia University. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Roosevelt Era; Baby boom generation; Red Scare; Activism; Vietnam War; Universal Health Care; Senator Edmund Muskies; Slavery; Beat generation; John Coltrane; Lester Young; Jazz; Neal Cassidy; Silent Generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Roosevelt Era; Baby boom generation; Red Scare; Activism; Vietnam War; Universal Health Care; Senator Edmund Muskie; Slavery; Beat generation; John Coltrane; Lester Young; Jazz; Neal Cassady; Silent Generation.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 56:07 Subject LCSH Peace Corps (U.S.); Scanlon, Thomas J.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Tom Scanlon Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Scanlon, Thomas J. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Peace Corps (U.S.); Scanlon, Thomas J.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Thomas J. Scanlon, Benchmark's founder, and the president was among the first young Americans to serve overseas in President John F. Kennedy's Peace Corps. He published a memoir of his Peace Corps experiences in Chile entitled <em>Waiting for the Snow</em>. Scanlon graduated magna cum laude from Notre Dame. He has a Master's degree in Philosophy from the University of Toronto and a Master's degree in Public Law and Government from Columbia University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-07-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.110 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 56:07 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e1e9fa97bb82414cf821f45ecd45a90e.jpg b2203853d4f1273016de18e4481858e9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/16ef8e7ef88942ea5e459812e113703a.mp3 d4f0b3cc8a4a466ef950e7d8112d551e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-05-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ellen Schrecker Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Ellen Schrecker is a scholar, professor emerita of American History at Yeshiva University and has received a fellowship at the Tamiment library in NYU. In addition, she is considered a leading expert on McCarthyism and has taught at various prestigious universities including Princeton, New York University, and Columbia."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4483,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Ellen Schrecker is a scholar, professor emerita of American History at Yeshiva University and has received a fellowship at the Tamiment library in NYU. In addition, she is considered a leading expert on McCarthyism and has taught at various prestigious universities including Princeton, New York University, and Columbia.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 217:19 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation, College in the 1960s; Vietnam War; Anti-war movement; Thomas Reeves; McCarthyism; Civil rights movement; Activism"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation, College in the 1960s; Vietnam War; Anti-war movement; Thomas Reeves; McCarthyism; Civil rights movement; Activism</span> Subject LCSH College teachers; United States—History—1945-1953; Tamiment Library; Yeshiva University; Schrecker, Ellen--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ellen Schrecker Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 19 May 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Testing, one, two, test. All right. I will be checking it. All set? ES (00:00:10): Sure. SM (00:00:10): Okay. First off, thanks again for being a part of the project. I have been-been bound in this project now for a long time, starting part-time in (19)96, and kind of finishing up full-time now. And I left the university to work on this for the last two years. One of the first questions I would like to ask is... to each of my interviewees is, how did you become who you are? And now, you are a great historian. There are certain issues that you would like to write about, not only as a scholar, but as a teacher. And what was your growing up years like? How did you become who you are? Your parents? Your high school years, or... ES (00:00:51): Well, I grew up, actually, outside Philadelphia. My parents were during the 1950s, during the McCarthy period. My parents were liberal democrats. They were not left-wingers. They were not in the party or anything like that. I have often been accused of being a red diaper baby, but I am not. And as a teenager, I can recall watching Army- McCarthy hearings, all that kind of stuff, knowing that this was bad stuff, but not knowing very much about it at all. SM (00:01:39): Right. ES (00:01:39): In fact, you will probably be interested in this one. The guy who was on the board of trustees at Jefferson Medical School was my grandfather's law partner. SM (00:01:54): Oh, really? ES (00:01:55): Who... SM (00:01:55): Oh my God. ES (00:01:55): And he was the guy... He was the point guy for dismissing all of the three faculty members. SM (00:02:03): Oh my. What a small world. ES (00:02:04): Yes. It was a small world. And one of the things I knew as a young person was that my mother despised this man, but I never knew why, never had any idea. And then, many years later, when I started doing research [inaudible] academic community, I came across this guy and realized that... and understood why my mother was so upset. And it was very clear to me that the leadership at the administration and board trustees... that Jefferson had selected this man to handle all of this because he was Jewish. And the people that were being fired were also Jewish, very much like having Roy Cohen... SM (00:02:59): Oh, yes. ES (00:02:59): ... prosecute the Rosenbergs. Anyhow... So, I grew up not knowing very much. I mean, another... Can you excuse me? SM (00:03:11): Okay. ES (00:03:11): Yeah. The other thing that I learned when I was doing, actually, my other book on McCarthyism... I did not find this... SM (00:03:26): Yeah, I have that here too. ES (00:03:26): ... until somewhat later... SM (00:03:28): Yeah. ES (00:03:28): ... was that my sixth-grade teacher had been fired. SM (00:03:35): Oh, wow. ES (00:03:37): ... for having been in a congress. He had never come up before a committee, but the FBI had fingered him. And at that point, the school... It was not a public school. It was a private school that was being run by Temple University. And they just got rid of him. SM (00:03:59): As a young person though, you are just seeing these things for the first time. Your parents are one thing, but you were a young person, a child, or a teenager. ES (00:04:12): Yeah. SM (00:04:13): What were you thinking about America? And this is course post World War II America. ES (00:04:19): Yeah. Yeah. You know. I grew up in this sort of liberal ADA, Americans for Democratic Action, sort of... My family was in favor of Stevenson when I... My mother worked for the Democratic Party in what was a Republican suburb at that time. And the rumor was always that you had to vote Republican in order to get your garbage collected, which was not true. But anyhow... So, I grew up with a fairly, what would you say, liberal set of values, which I think I still retain. SM (00:05:12): Where did you go to high school? ES (00:05:15): I went to Chelnum High School SM (00:05:17): Outside Philly? ES (00:05:18): Outside Philadelphia. SM (00:05:19): Golly. I know... Colleen McHugh... It is a small world again. Colleen McHugh was the president of our Contemporary Issues Committee. She is a senior. She is in Scotland right now, is from that high school. ES (00:05:31): Good. SM (00:05:32): Colleen McHugh. ES (00:05:33): Sure. We had all kinds of people who went there. Benjamin Netanyahu went there after my time. Reggie Jackson went there. SM (00:05:44): Oh my gosh. Yeah. ES (00:05:48): And it was a big public high school with a wide variety of kids. It was fine. And then, I went to Radcliffe. That is where I got my undergraduate. And I stayed to get my PhD at Harvard. And I was in European diplomatic history. I got my PhD in European diplomatic history. I wrote my thesis on "The French debt to the United States after the First World War". It was really boring. I did not enjoy it. And I sort of did not want to go on in that field. And so, this is about the 19... early 1970s. I finished my degree. I really did not know what I wanted to do. I was married. I had two children. We were living in Cambridge at the time. My then husband was teaching Chinese history at Brandeis. And I got a job teaching freshman composition at Harvard. The way it worked was you did not have to be in English, but you had to be a good writer. And they assumed somehow it would rub off on the students. And you could teach your course as a kind of mini course, as almost a little seminar, as long as you assigned a lot of writing and worked on the writing. And so, I decided I would teach a course on the 1950s because I had grown up then and I was curious. So, I started teaching this course. This is the mid-(19)70s. And I discovered that there was no good book on McCarthyism that I could assign my students, nothing, sick, no scholarship, no nothing. And so, after about a year of this, I decided, well, I did not know what I wanted to do, but I was really interested in McCarthyism. And I would write a book about it. And I had already written a Chinese book, of all things... SM (00:08:31): Oh my God. ES (00:08:34): ... which is another piece of my life. And I had a literary agent. And I got a fellowship from the Radcliffe, what was then called the Funding Institute at Radcliffe, for a year, to work on this project on McCarthyism. And after a little while, it became very clear to me that this was a big project and that there was another person who was writing a general book on McCarthyism. And I was sort of advised by a whole bunch of people to narrow down my topic. So, I decided. I made a choice. I realized I could either look at McCarthyism in one city or I could take an occupational group. And I decided, since I was an academic, I might as well look at the academy. And so, that is how I got into writing my first book about McCarthyism. SM (00:09:45): I think, if I remember correctly, there is only two books that I can recall, because I have them, are the Buckley book that you wrote on McCarthyism that was out. And then, there was one on Richard Reeves or Richard... ES (00:10:02): Yeah, which was Joe McCarthy himself. SM (00:10:04): Yeah. Big, big book. Yeah. I think Richard Veer wrote a book of... ES (00:10:06): He wrote a book in about 1956. And Reeves wrote a biography, and... Thomas Reeves, I think it was. SM (00:10:15): Thomas Reeves. Yeah, because... Right. ES (00:10:19): But there was not a general study. The general study that was being written at the time was by a guy named David Caute, C A U T E, who was a brit... SM (00:10:29): Oh yeah. ES (00:10:30): ... who... Actually, I had been in a graduate seminar with him many years ago. And his book was... It is not bad, but it did not do what I did. And so, anyhow, I finished this book on McCarthyism and the university, mainly looking at dozens of archives of universities, interviewing a lot of people, and then decided that I would go back to my original project of looking at McCarthyism as a whole, because there still was not the kind of book that I thought should be written. And so... And by that time, I had moved to New York and had remarried, and was just... I had changed... I do not think you could do it these days. But in those days, I was able to switch from European history into American history. And at the time my McCarthy University's book came out, I was able to get a teaching job at Yeshiva in American history. And I began to work on the sort of general study of McCarthyism. I published. I do not know if you have seen this little book for classroom use. SM (00:12:09): No, I have not seen that. ES (00:12:10): Okay. Let me show you. SM (00:12:19): Do you feel that... What influence do you feel that McCarthyism period had on the boomer generation that was really in elementary school at the time, but subconsciously many kids were watching that on black and white TV? I know I was one of them. I did not quite understand it, but I saw that... Well, I think I have seen that, but I do not have it. Yeah. I have seen that. ES (00:12:45): Well, this is the one that... And in some ways, it is used. It is what people assign in their classes... SM (00:12:55): Oh, yes. ES (00:12:56): ... because it is much smaller than this book. SM (00:12:57): Yes. Wow. There is the gentleman to his right that... ES (00:13:04): Yeah. And that was a lot of fun. That is just a bunch of documents with a sort of hundred-page overview. SM (00:13:14): Do you think that the McCarthyism had any effect on young boomers? Some I have interviewed say that they were too young, but others subconsciously were seeing this fear that was happening in America at the same time, the fear of speaking up, the fear of... ES (00:13:34): Yeah. SM (00:13:35): And they were cognizant of what was going on in the South too, if you were watching the news, about the Civil Rights movement and the courage of the Dr. Kings and others to stand up and speak. ES (00:13:46): Right. I mean, I think what happened was, certainly when I was growing up there, the left was completely marginalized. I mean, I just plain did not even know it existed. When I was at Radcliffe, there apparently was a socials club, but it was made up of what were called Red Diaper babies, people whose parents had been pretty much in the Communist Party. And people who were outside of that very small left-wing world did not even know it existed. And... SM (00:14:33): Kind of like the young Americans for Freedom in the (19)60s and (19)70s. The young Americans for Freedom were a conservative group that was formed by Buckley. But a lot of people, when they talk about the actors in (19)60s, they totally omit them or say very little about that. ES (00:14:52): Right. But I think this civil rights movement really made a huge difference because it is the moment at which there is a mass movement for social reform. And that changed how people thought about political action. Before that, I do not think there was very much going on. SM (00:15:23): So, you deep down inside... If people were young enough, especially the early boomers born, say, in (19)46, that were maybe six and seven years old when McCarthyism was really rampant... And he was popular, I guess, through (19)54 or whatever. He was well known to the news... that that had any effect on these as they grew older and they wanted to speak up, like so many did on... with all the movements that took place in the late (19)60s. And we are not going to be held back. We are going to speak our minds. And... ES (00:16:00): Well, I think what it... The impact was not so much what happened, but what did not happen. There is a missing generation of activists. There is a missing institutional connection to some kind of ongoing left-wing tradition. That was shattered by McCarthyism. And so, what you have in the (19)60s with many members of the new left is the sense that they have to begin all over again. SM (00:16:42): You were at two places, obviously, where there was activism. Harvard had a lot of activisms. I have interviewed a couple professors at Harvard Square and... ES (00:16:50): I was not there then. What happened was, during the height of the "(19)60s", my then husband was teaching at Princeton, which was not a particularly active community. SM (00:17:03): Right. ES (00:17:05): And I can recall go... as a faculty wife of all things, going to the organizing meeting of the Princeton chapter of the Students for Democratic Society with my husband and I think one or two other faculty members at which these faculty members told the students, "This is a student run organization. The faculty cannot do it for you. You have to do it." So, Princeton was not particularly active in that period. SM (00:17:38): Yeah. Well, Harvard Square is one of those historic moments. And did being around students though... When you were around your peers, how would you define them at the colleges when you were there, when you were working on that doctorate, when you were working on that Master's in undergrad? ES (00:17:57): Yeah. Well, for some weird reason, I had a very interesting group of sorts of gang of friends. A number of them were red diaper babies, parents were communists, very close friends. And we were... Well actually, I was politically active in the early 1960s, like around (19)62, (19)63, (19)64. I was very active in the Northern Support group for the student non-violent coordinators. SM (00:18:46): Oh, SNCs. ES (00:18:48): We were SNCs. I was very active in helping, especially the Freedom summer stuff in 1964. I was involved, although then something else happened and I could not remain involved. But then, when we moved to Princeton, which we did in 1965, I was again active in SNC. And it became... For a very short time before it sort of all dissolved, I think I was head of the Princeton Friends of SNC or something like that. SM (00:19:19): Oh, okay. ES (00:19:21): So, I was politically active, not... I did not go south... SM (00:19:25): Okay. ES (00:19:27): ... mainly because I was married, and I thought wives should not go leave their husband. SM (00:19:37): And so many of the people that were in the Freedom Summer in (19)64... We all know about Berkeley and the free speech movement, and Mario Savio and people like that, Tom Hayden and so forth. I know this is a very broad question, but when you think of the boomer generation... Again, lot... I... Well, first off, I would like to know whether you like the term, number one, and whether your terms defining generations. Because I have had individuals like Todd Gitlin that said, if you mentioned the boomer generation one more time, this interview was over. Because he does not like these little compartmentalization’s of the greatest generation, the silent generation, the boomer generation, millennials, generation X, boomers. He does not like it. And I have had quite a few that do not like it. But then some say, "Well, we got to have something." ES (00:20:37): Yeah, it is convenient. I mean, I am a historian. It is convenient as long as you contextualize it and realize that you cannot put everybody in the slot. And you need to look at what was actually going on during that time and realize that there were always alternative voices. SM (00:20:57): Yeah, but when you... If someone... If... Say you were in high school and you were in a 11th grade class and somebody had the courage to ask a question, and that is "What's the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of the boomer generation?" Well, how would you respond? ES (00:21:19): These were people who came of age in the 1960s. They are a demographic bulge, which is why they cut so much attention because there were so many more of them proportionally within the population. And these were people who were on American campuses at the time of... I do a lot or higher education. So, this is a period when there is enormous expansion of American higher education, an enormous push actually to get people to go to graduate school. And this is something that I talk about in my book about the lost soul, of the role of graduate students in a lot of these student movements as a kind of in between group. The other thing, which I did not talk about, but I always talk about when I am describing the political activity and social movement of the 1960s, is... I illustrate it by describing my apartment that I got when I was a second-year graduate student at Harvard. I do not know if you know Cambridge at all. SM (00:22:53): Yeah. I have been up there. I have interviewed... I have interviewed 11 people at Harvard's. ES (00:22:58): Well, my apartment was on Bank Street, which was about maybe five blocks from Harvard Square, which is very centrally located. It was very cheap. It was $65 a month. Now admittedly, I did not have central heating, but I had a kerosene heater and my landlord put in a better heater because he thought I might burn down the house with [inaudible]. And the bathroom left something to be desired like a sink. I had to brush my teeth in the kitchen. But other than that, it was fine. It was three rooms, neighborhood was safe even though it was pretty inexpensive. It was a student neighborhood. And I had a roommate. And what this meant, if my rent costs me, what, under $40 a month, it meant that there was not on the people of my generation the kind of economic pressures that are on people today. SM (00:24:17): To work, yeah. ES (00:24:19): To work. You could live... I had a fellowship from... that paid for everything. I did not have to teach. And you could live very, very cheaply. And that allowed people not only the sort of freedom at that moment to become politically active, but also everybody knew they could get a job. You could get a job without having a PhD. My husband was hired at Princeton without having finished his PhD. That was common. And so, nobody worried about their economic situation. I mean, people probably did, but it was not the way it is today. People were not graduating with huge debts. And that economic security, I think, allowed for much more political expression than you have today. I mean, I think that is really key. And it is not something that people talk about. SM (00:25:34): Some people have even gone to the extreme... As a follow-up to what you just said is that people who really have been around a while, and were activists historically, and have experienced what you experienced, but now see that there are some really good students who care, but they do not have the time to do things like they did when they were young, they feel it is almost as if there is a conspiracy out there to keep young people busy so they cannot take the time to protest, to challenge, to be an activist like in the past because they have no time. And one interesting point, when you study the millennial generation, which I... because I am in higher ed too. The millennials... In the Irving Howe book, Holland Strauss states that they are like the boomer generation with respect that they want to leave a legacy, but they want to leave a legacy after they are (19)40, whereas boomers wanted to change the world immediately. And a lot of it has to do with getting the degree, working, and not having the time, raising a family and so forth. I am not sure if all that is true, but the thing is, they... Today's young people to me, deeply care. They just do not have the time to be involved in fighting for a lot of things they care about. You raised a real good point there. This is kind of a follow-up too. And are there any characteristics that you feel define the generation? Any strengths or weaknesses that, of the boomers that you knew and lived with or taught... ES (00:27:27): Yeah, they are all somewhat younger than I am. I do not think I could characterize, make that comment. SM (00:27:38): 70 million? ES (00:27:39): Yeah. SM (00:27:39): Yeah. ES (00:27:40): I do not think I could. SM (00:27:42): Because there are... One of the things here that... Is there... Today, the conservative... I will repeat that... I am going to read this part. How do you respond to the critics of the boomer generation who blame many of the problems today on what happened back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s; the attacks are around the sexual revolution, worries, the drug culture, inner spirituality as opposed to organized religion, the divorce rate, the beginning of the breakup of the American family, the divisiveness that was so strong back then, no respect for law and order, violence, no respect for authority, no lack... the lack of trust in leadership... Even some people have said the spending habits of the boomers, they were a materialistic generation. They spent, and that is one of the reasons why we are in the problems today. Individually, it is because the, I want it now and I am not going to wait for it. And then, of course, overall, the challenge to the status quo, the tax on corporate influence, and group think, and the concept of victimization, the welfare state mentality. These are all the things the conservatives attack the boomer generation... And it is particularly the counterculture from the (19)60s and (19)70s. ES (00:29:16): Well, a lot of this is not... I teach. This is the period I teach. And what you see, certainly with regard to say the sexual revolution, is it was not a revolution. It was an evolution, but it had been... Sexual morals were changing, had been changing since the early 20th century. You were not seeing a "revolution". What you were seeing was finally a sort of realization of what actually was happening. And I think the sort of cultural changes, again, were things that would have happened, whether there was some kind of "(19)60s" or not. These changes in how people related a sort of greater informality would have happened anyhow. And a lot of what conservatives’ attack, of course, is protest against things like the Vietnam War and white supremacy in the South, which were certainly not exactly the products of the boomer generation. SM (00:30:46): Oh yes, definitely. You already mentioned earlier that one of the great qualities or developments that happened during the time when boomers were young is the expansion of higher education and the increasing numbers of students who go to college as opposed to even in the (19)50s. There was something going on. We know about the GI Bill after World War II and many came back, but certainly with the influx of new young people coming in, certainly access. So, could you describe the state of higher education in America, just as a person who has studied it in the following periods? Because I am... We are looking at 65 years now. Boomers have been alive now 65 years, the oldest ones. And every single day, I hear that there are something like 13,500 people turning 65, or boomers, every day for the next God knows how many years. So, when you look at 1946 to 1960 in higher education, what comes to your mind? ES (00:31:56): Well, that is this period of really massive expansion and a democratization of higher ed... and a democratization of higher education. Really, before the Second World War, it was very much an elite phenomenon. After the Second World War, it becomes, essentially, the badge of middle-class status and you get an expansion, especially in the public sector, not just at flagship universities like the University of Michigan, but the creation of a much broader second tier of institutions. For example, I am looking at Pennsylvania, where I grew up, in the 1950s, there were all these state teachers’ colleges. SM (00:32:54): Oh, yes, Portland, that was the where I grew up, Portland State Teachers College. ES (00:32:58): Sure. They all begin to expand, they become part of bigger systems. So, you are getting more and more access to higher education from people who have very different backgrounds. It is no longer something that is, quote, unquote, "elite". Now, the higher education system is still very stratified and there are these elite institutions at the top, and it goes down to community colleges and stuff. But the access to some kind of higher education really just grew enormously. For people, like myself, who were in graduate school, and young faculty members, what they were experiencing was this incredible job market. I have been working, doing research, I did some for the most recent book and I am going to do more, on academic freedom in the 1960s faculty activism, not student activism. SM (00:34:11): Oh, wow. ES (00:34:13): I discovered a left-wing faculty group that saw itself as the faculty twin or the alumni movement of SDS, essentially. SM (00:34:29): You mentioned that briefly, that of the 25 at one school, 24 of them were let go. ES (00:34:35): Yeah-yeah. SM (00:34:37): I remember that. ES (00:34:42): Called the New University Conference. And they had this newsletter, and at one point, they were going to set up a job service, a job referral bank for their members. What they said was, "Come to us for the next job from which you would be fired." But the fact was, most of the people who did lose their jobs for political reasons during this period were able to find other academic jobs if they wanted them. Some people just dropped out. But it is because of this enormous expansion, again, the fact of much more economic security really enabled people to be more politically active. SM (00:35:31): When you look at that period than after Kennedy came into power 1961 to, say, 1980, when Ronald Reagan, how would you define that? There's so much... How would you define that higher education during that time? ES (00:35:45): Well, that is still the period of expansion. The moment at which the expansion stops, it is pretty clear. It is about (19)74, (19)75. The oil shock's the moment. It is a crisis in, I think we have to say, American world capitalism. That is the moment at which you begin to see cut backs in the amount of state funding of higher education, period. Where you begin to see a concerted attack on the quote, unquote, "liberal academy" from a bunch of conservatives who then begin to fund right wing foundations and writers and start what we see as, I think, a really major attack on what is considered the liberal academy. SM (00:36:52): That is really from late (19)70s through today, really? ES (00:36:56): Yes. Yeah. SM (00:36:57): Ronald Reagan played a key part in that because his attack- ES (00:37:03): He began it in California. He ran against Berkeley in 1966. SM (00:37:07): Yes. Yeah. That is unbelievable development and that he used the same package when he ran for President, too. Law and order, law and order and against the welfare state. Remember, those are the two things. You have written three books. Oh, you have written more than three books, but I am not making comment on this book because I did not know about this one. But the three books, the No Ivory Tower, the book on McCarthyism, and your most recent book on higher education the lost soul. In a few words, what was the basic premise of all three of those books? Secondly, when you look at the three major premises of these books, how did the main information that premise affect the Boomer generation? ES (00:38:06): Well, I guess the main thing I am concerned about is free speech, freedom of expression, intellectual freedom, the ability to express dissent about major political issues. I think that is what I have been looking at in one way or another in all of my work. At the moment, I am working on yet another book. It is a study of American political repression. Very general from, as we say, the Puritans to the Patriot Act. I am working with a political scientist who is a political theoretician. Because when I was working on all of these books, I had assumed that a political theorist had written something about political repression, seems to be a rather important subject. Yet it turns out there is very little, which was surprising. Anyhow, I have a colleague who is a political theorist at Brooklyn College, teaches CUNY, and he is interested in exactly the same things I am, so we are working on this together. But it is all about, essentially, the suppression of the dissent and looking at how it operates. Stuart, is there anything I can get you? Stuart (00:39:47): No, I am fine! ES (00:39:47): Okay. SM (00:40:01): Yeah. When we talk about freedom of speech, the first thing that always comes to my mind, and I do not think it is being taught very well in higher education today in graduate programs, is the influence that the Free Speech Movement had on the history of higher education, in my opinion. I went to Ohio State in the early (19)70s and we talked about it all the time. We even talk about legal aspects of when police can come on campus, when they cannot come on campus and everything. But what the one thing that always strikes me about the Free Speech Movement is people try to separate it, saying that it was the early to middle (19)60s as opposed to the other protests, when in reality, the precursor of what was to come. Secondly, Mario Savio, whether you like him or not, his words will forever... I have been on Berkeley many times. I took part-time courses there, too. The fact is that the thing that stands out in that whole movement was the fact that ideas, ideas is what the university is all about, not corporate control. So, a lot of the battles that took place during that (19)64, (19)65 period, and many of the battles in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s on even my campus at SUNY Binghamton, was that we wanted a campus of ideas and not departments and grants and fundraising and everything linked toward corporate control of what can happen on the university camps. What is upsetting to me today is it seems like we have forgotten everything about the Free Speech Movement. ES (00:41:46): Yeah. SM (00:41:48): We know its history but... I interviewed Arthur Chickering who wrote Education and Identity, and I also interviewed Alexander Astin, the great scholar in California. After each interview, I said, " What is your biggest disappointment as a person who have lived in higher education for your whole career?" They both said, "Corporate control of the university," and they are teaching PhD students in higher ed. Just your thoughts on the Free Speech Movement, how important it was? ES (00:42:17): Well, it, I think, emphasized the significance of higher education, institutions of higher education, as those places where people not only can debate ideas freely... But also, in the contemporary world, as you know, the media is increasingly shrinking and speaking more to niches than not to a general public. We do not have that general debate out there at any high level. It is all soundbites. So, the universities are really the last place where you can deal with complicated ideas, where you can deal with complexity, where things are not just black or white, but are much more nuanced. Of course, that is something that I think and do not want to talk about a corporate conspiracy, but clearly, we are seeing a dumbing down of public debate, public discourse. Universities are really the last place that is pushing back against that. But as they are being starved for funds, as there are all these pressures from the outside against tenured radicals, you know that whole business- SM (00:44:11): Oh, yeah. ES (00:44:11): ... then universities are increasingly on the defensive. Their administrations are scrambling for money. They are totally focused on the bottom line. What that means, of course, is that they have to go out and get students, their students. It creates a very competitive atmosphere on campuses. It is competitive for faculty. It is competitive for students. The values of a desire to learn, the desire to find things out, the desire to find things out for oneself, is a sideline in this need for getting ahead for what you see now is an increasing vocationalization of higher ed. SM (00:45:09): Yep. ES (00:45:12): Where people are essentially majoring in occupational therapy and not liberal arts, which, I think, are increasingly necessary for the creation of an informed citizenry. What we are losing is that informed citizenry that can think about reality rather than something that is been filtered through advertising and celebrities and this whole soundbite culture. SM (00:45:50): I have this theory, and I like your opinion on it, and that is based on my experiences of 30 years in higher ed at four different universities, Jefferson being one, Ohio University, Ohio State, and Westchester University. That is that it seems like the term activism is a term that universities are deathly afraid of. They like the term volunteerism. Everybody's volunteering. In my studies, I read that volunteerism is at its peak when it is usually a conservative era. But certainly, the Peace Corps was about volunteerism. Volunteers in Service to America was the same thing. If you go to any university campus now, just about 95 percent of students are involved in some sort of volunteer activity. Some required, and some do it on their own and join clubs and get involved. But when you talk about activism, I have always believed that activism is a step beyond volunteerism. Volunteerism might be twice a week or once a week. But 24/7 is what activism is. It is a state of mind. It is a state of being. It is about speaking up. It is about challenging. It is about seeing injustice and trying to write it. I can go on and on here. Do you believe that universities today, whether it be the university you teach at or Berkeley or SUNY Binghamton, my alma mater or Ohio State or other alma mater, are they afraid of the word activism? ES (00:47:32): Oh, sure. What we are seeing, of course, I mean, one way of looking at it is this kind of... What do they call it? Civic service or something that is being pushed on many campuses. It is very much about individualism. It is individual action. Whereas what you are talking about is really a collective action that is directed against systemic problems. In other words, it is not enough or individuals to work in soup kitchens or food banks. Maybe we should change the laws and create a different kind of welfare system. So, there is a big difference here between individual acts, charity and something that is really challenging the system at a much deeper level. SM (00:48:39): I agree. We had an activist series at Westchester. It was growing. We had Tom Hayden, we had Daniel Berrigan. I mean, he was really growing, and we read Howard Zinn's thin book, and we had faculty members coming in with students reading it together. We were asked to stop it because it was... I do not know why, but we were asked to stop it, even though it was becoming a success. So, something was happening beyond the areas that I know that were threatening someone. ES (00:49:14): Really? When was this? SM (00:49:17): Oh, this was recently at my university, within the last 10 years. ES (00:49:20): Yeah, interesting. SM (00:49:20): It may have been as much against me as it was against what we were doing. Because when we had a small group of students and they did not think it was enough people that were involved, and it was a long story. When I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and I also interviewed David Horowitz, they had mentioned to me that they said that the radicals of the (19)60s are now controlling today's universities. But then I asked them, let us be more specific here, because I know a lot of conservatives who are running universities today. They said, "Well, what we are really saying is that they control the curriculum." Do you believe that? Phyllis Schlafly is very strong on this. She said, "The radicals of the (19)60s are now controlling the curriculum of the university." ES (00:50:12): No, no. What happened is that in the (19)60s, universities expanded, we have already talked about that, brought in whole new groups of people. Universities began to address issues that they had not addressed before because there was pressure from their own students. But it is not because the students were radical, it is because the students were African American or Hispanic and felt somewhat excluded. The administration, much more than the faculty themselves, are the ones who created some of these changes. One group I studied, I looked at for my book on the Lost Soul of Higher Education, were people who started women's studies programs. Well, these women may have been radicals, but the pressure to extend women's studies came from their students. The administrators were very-very happy to accommodate them, to create women studies programs. Why? Because students were taking them, they were popular. That feeds this bottom-line mentality. If you can attract a lot of students, your administration likes you. SM (00:51:49): Yes, definitely. That is one of the things. Would you say that when you look the era of the Boomer generation and the accomplishments that came out of the period, some people say they were negatives, like I mentioned earlier, their opinions, but that one of the greatest accomplishments that ever came out of this period was the fact of the women's studies, the Black studies, the Native American studies, Asian American studies, all the different studies programs that were all criticized in one way or another at the beginning, but have become very legitimate and important parts of the university of today? ES (00:52:27): Well, yeah, I think so. I mean, also, one of the big changes that we are seeing in curriculum in my school, which is a very conservative school, to put it mildly, has just implemented some curricular reforms, much of it having to do with the introduction of non-western studies, of looking at the rest of the world, which is absolutely crucial. That is not being propelled by (19)60s radicals. It is being compelled by the changes out there in society. SM (00:53:06): Yeah. I remember when Henry Cisneros spoke at the NASPA conference about maybe 12 years ago, former mayor of San Antonio. He said, "We have been preaching a long time in higher education about preparing our students for the global world." We are in the technology world here. So, it is a little different than even in the (19)60s, but even then, you can communicate faster than you could in the (19)50s. Basically, is not that what it is all about? We need to prepare students for the global world that we are facing. Thus, when we talk about Muslim studies and understanding Islam is preparing our students to understand the cultures of the world, the people they are going to live with, the people they are going to work with, and the people who are going to be their bosses. ES (00:53:54): Yeah. SM (00:53:56): That is what Henry Cisneros was talking, said, " You need to prepare for the future, not be afraid of the future," and that was his presentation. "Do not fear the future, prepare for the future." I get emotional on this. This is a very important topic. Well, when did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end? ES (00:54:21): Oh, boy. I teach a course on the (19)60s, so I devote at least one class to that. It really varies. I think you could always say, "Well, let us take the election of Kennedy." But a lot of stuff began earlier. Certainly, the Civil Rights Movement is building up from what civil rights historians called the Long Civil Rights Movement, from the Second World War on. On the other hand, you can say, well, the escalation of the Vietnam War in 1964, (19)65 may have created the more raucous part of the (19)60s. Certainly with regard to say women's issues, it is really not till again, the mid (19)60s that women become much more self-conscious. Betty Freidan's Feminine Mystique is published in 1963. When does it end? Again, I forget to look at the mid (19)70s, the oil shock, and the Vietnam War. SM (00:55:58): Was there a watershed moment that stands out above everything else? ES (00:56:05): Moments. No one, single one, I think- SM (00:56:11): Some people believe that we are still... Well, because of the culture wars, (19)60s never ended because of the battles that are ongoing and continue. If you go to the Vietnam memorials, you will see many of them have still got their problems with those who were in the anti-war movement, and that is just a small segment. But you see the battle within the university that you write so brilliantly about. The two words that stand out is the concept of truth, which was the Western civilization, the truth, and Aristotle and Plato and so forth. Then relevance, which, it has got to be relevant to me. Well, Western civilization is, "We have got to prepare you as a liberal person." So those are all part of the ongoing... I think we are doing okay time-wise. ES (00:57:08): Yeah. SM (00:57:10): Any other thoughts on... ES (00:57:14): Well, I think the country has turned so far to the right since the 1970s that to talk about being under the sway of the (19)60s is just fantasy. Well, we are living in a very conservative moment in which things that were taken for granted in the (19)60s are deemed totally unrealistic like the fact that the government might be able to do some good and create valuable social programs. SM (00:57:58): Yes. ES (00:57:59): Nope. That is just... SM (00:58:04): The one thing I wanted to ask you because you bring it up in the book is the fact that the university was... Again, Mario Savio said that the purpose of the university is about ideas. So, when the conservative right, whether it be not Mr. Pipes, who many people on our campus can out stand, they always bring him up, something about him rubs people the wrong way. Irving Kristol, that group of people... See, what am I trying to say here? ES (00:58:42): What, these cultural conservatives? SM (00:58:44): Yeah, the cultural conservatives. I was trying to get to a point here about... The thing that we talk about, if Savio says that it is about ideas and Dr. Pipes says it is something about truth, what is the difference? There are different truths. So, Pipes has a problem with different truths. You raised this in your book. ES (00:59:20): Okay. Well, what is weird is that to a certain extent, these people who are bemoaning, the loss of that sense of centeredness and a common culture, which is a quote, unquote, "elite culture"... Often, I have a big deal sympathy for them because one of the big fights that I see and that I think one of the big problems within universities is not so much the content of general education courses, but the fact that... What is it now? I think over 60 percent of all students are there not getting any exposure to it. They are taking occupational therapy; they are taking hotel management. They are not getting exposure to anything that is giving them an ability to think critically about their own lives and about their own culture and their own country. The people who are concerned about the denial of absolute truth and how humanists have become relativists and all that, are not dealing with the real problem. I think they probably do not really care that 70 percent of all college students are studying hotel management. Because they are elitist, they are only thinking about the top tier of upper class and upper middle-class students who are making it into these highly selective, elite schools. They are students who got to Williams, who are going to Stanford and Harvard and University of Michigan maybe. The ones who are going to Westchester University, they do not care about. So, I think it is very much a class issue. SM (01:01:42): See, access to higher education is one of the greatest accomplishments that I have seen in my lifetime and to see criticism of affirmative action or multiculturalism and diversity, and not only with African-Americans, but Latinos and women and gay and lesbian students, transgender, Asian students, and Native America, you name it. I cannot understand why people are critical of that like it. And to be openly blatant about the fact that wanting to go back to the way it was when white America, white middle class America, was basically the college students of the era, just bottles my mind. And that is kind of what... I have got a little more here. One of the things I wanted to mention, too, you probably talked about this in your class, is the generation gap. There was that historic, well, that historic... that Life Magazine cover, which I have framed, it was in my office for many years, of the young student that was in the blue with his father pointing fingers at him in one eye, and he is pointing finger back at his dad and in the other eye and it is basically talking about the generation gap between parents of the World War II generation and their kids over culture, over the war, a lot of other things. Did you experience that a lot in your own family, number one? ES (01:03:16): No. SM (01:03:17): And did you see it amongst your peers on college campuses when you were there? ES (01:03:21): No. SM (01:03:24): I bring the generation gap up because of the fact that in 1984, there was a book that came out called The Wounded Degeneration. There was a symposium made up of veterans like Phil Caputo, Jack Wheeler, Jim Webb, who is now a Senator, Bobby Muller and James Stahls. The purpose of the meeting was the fact that Webb brought up, he said that we all think of the Boomer generation as a service-oriented generation because the Kennedys asked not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country- These, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country, the Peace Corps and giving back. But Mr. Webb said, "It's anything but. The (19)60s generation was not about service because if it was about service, they would have gone and served their nation in the Vietnam War." And he said, "So it is as much about the generation gap between parents and their kids, but it is also between the generation itself, those who served, and those who did not." What are your thoughts on the generation gap and the intra-generation gap? ES (01:04:35): There is a wonderful book about the people who served in Vietnam called the Working-Class War. You know it? SM (01:04:41): I think I am- ES (01:04:41): Chris Appy. SM (01:04:41): Okay. ES (01:04:51): It is a wonderful book. And I teach Vietnam and I usually assign it. And basically, the military draft, because of the 2- S student deferment, meant that the people who were drafted were trying to escape the draft, came from a working-class background, mainly inner-city kids, rural kids. It is the same today disproportionately, and middle-class white kids did not serve. Very-very few. I mean, I knew some when I was a graduate student, but there were very few. And so, it's really a class issue here. That is what we are talking about. There were some upper-class kids, John Kerry, comes to mind. SM (01:06:00): Oh, yes. ES (01:06:01): He did. But that is the exception. SM (01:06:10): Jim Webb, I almost had an interview with him before he became senator and now it is impossible to even get through to him, but he is very vocal on a lot of subjects. He is responsible for the three men statue being there because a lot of people did not want it there. Not very big Vietnam vets. But is that very strong language that he is using saying that he condemns the entire generation if they are labeled as service-oriented generation because they did not serve in Vietnam? ES (01:06:40): No. It is those of us who opposed the war felt that by working in the anti-war movement, we were doing our service. SM (01:06:51): See that is an important point, too, that is come up that some anti-war people had believed that they were veterans, too, of the war, but in a different way. And when I mentioned that to Vietnam veterans, some of them laugh it off. They said, "They did not serve in Vietnam." ES (01:07:08): No, they did not. But I do not think it is the same thing. But what they were doing was what they felt was best for the country. And I feel very strongly. I mean, I think Vietnam was absolutely crucial for anybody who lived through the (19)60s and it was an immoral, terrible war. And whatever anybody could do to stop it, I think was justified. SM (01:07:43): What did the universities learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s that they have carried into today? I know that we had new leadership at the top of every university and that many of the presidents of that era have died off. But what did they learn from that period and what have they forgotten? ES (01:08:05): Well, I think actually what happened was that- SM (01:08:05): Let me turn this other one. This one is a little slower. ES (01:08:18): ... what happened was not so much that they learned today. I think that what happened was, by the end of the (19)60s, beginning of the (19)70s, all of a sudden, they were confronted with unprecedented financial issues, and they immediately switched to a different mode. When we talk about the corporatization of the American university, what we are really talking about is the fact that from the early (19)70s on, college and university administrations are essentially concerned with financial issues and that they are doing whatever they can to raise money, to have good relationships with state legislatures, to help their faculty get grants. You had, for example, in 1980, the passage of the Bayh-Dole Amendment which allows universities to actually profit from the research, the federally funded research that their faculty members have been carrying out. And you get more and more academic administrators behaving not as intellectual leaders or public intellectuals, but as fundraisers and- SM (01:09:58): That is one of the reasons why I left the university. I refused to be a fundraiser and link educational programs like the Islam America Conference to money. I refused. And I knew my time was up. So, you raise a very important point here. ES (01:10:22): ... So I think whatever concerns they may have had about student activism or anything, just that was of secondary importance, and they begin to identify with the institution as an institution rather than with the institution as some kind of educational entity or a place for intellectual discourse or for any kind of research other than research that can be measured either in money or in some sort of terms of prestige. The US News and World Report has absolutely undermined higher education in that respect. SM (01:11:14): It is interesting because the university has kind of been really doing this assessment thing. You got to prove that what you do has value to students. And I would say that we would get instant responses back from students who had been involved in the program, but you cannot assess the importance of a speaker, a forum, a conference, on a student immediately. It is something that could impact you years from now. They want instant satisfaction and instant assessment. And I say, you cannot do that in student life. You cannot. ES (01:11:49): Right. SM (01:11:51): You can get your data, but it is just not going to happen. And it is just like, it is amazing. An assessment is everything now, as you well know. Prove it has value and if you do not prove it immediately, then maybe we will cut it. Would you say that the university is really the main [inaudible] now in America over the respect of the cultural wars? ES (01:12:17): Yes. SM (01:12:17): And this is what frustrates the conservatives more than anything else is they have not been able to get control of it? ES (01:12:22): Yeah. I think, I mean, it is also happening, of course, in the schools as well. The No Child Left Behind Act has been actually disastrous with respect to, again, it is data driven. So, they measure what they can measure rather than what might have some intrinsic importance but cannot be quantified. And so, you have got schools all over the country teaching to the test rather than actually helping students learn. It is not very useful. It is certainly diverting attention, money, and sort of quality education is not occurring. SM (01:13:21): You bring up also that the think tanks that have really developed since the late (19)70s, early (19)80s, the Heritage Foundation, groups like that, are basically because I know I have interviewed quite a few of them and a couple of them are my friends. I have interviewed them, Michael Barone and people like that, Marvin Olasky. But the question I want to bring up here is many that went into these think tanks felt that they could not survive in a university, that the liberal university was ostracizing conservative faculty members. So, for them to truly get their voice, they had to leave the university and join... And of course, the Ola Foundation was the one you talked about that to fund them with lots of money to get their point of view out there. This is part of the culture wars. This is like... ES (01:14:19): Yes. If there were wrestling foundations out there, I might need two, but not because of staff, but because who does not want to be well paid to write books? But you cannot tell me right-wingers who are getting that kind of money. SM (01:14:39): And they are the main threat to the universities then today really. ES (01:14:42): The only person, I am sure there are others, but the only person I can think of who sort of a prolific writer on the left is who I guess left the university, because I know she has got a PhD, is Barbara Ehrenreich. SM (01:14:58): Oh, yeah. ES (01:15:00): She is obviously supporting herself by her writing, but she is not in the same [inaudible] department. SM (01:15:07): I interviewed Charles Murray, and we all know him, and Christina Hoff Summers, people like that, Ruth Seidel, [inaudible] to that group. Would you consider the Muslim students of today, the communist, the students who were labeled, or faculty members that were labeled, as communists in the (19)50s and African American students in the late (19)50s and early (19)60s, would you? I am saying we have a xenophobia in this country, which is a fear of people who are different, and we love the status quo. And whenever it is threatened by any group trying to get access to what other people have, there is resistance. Would you say Muslim students are that way today? ES (01:16:00): Yeah. I think there is a kind of demonization that, especially since 9/11 has targeted Muslims and people from the Middle East. No question about it. SM (01:16:14): When you see that link between the McCarthy period, too, and ostracizing those people who may have been labeled communist and then African American students? ES (01:16:25): Sure-sure. SM (01:16:25): Yeah? ES (01:16:37): You know, had a similar kind of scapegoating going on. SM (01:16:37): I only got about six more questions here. Could I use your restroom? Here we go. I have just a listing here, and I am not going to list all these things. I just wrote them out here. But what do you consider the major events in Boomer lives of... What do you believe, when you teach the (19)60s, some of the major events that really shaped their lives from that period? I have specific events. I do not know if you want me to read them here or list them. ES (01:17:14): Obviously, the civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War. I mean, I think those are the two key ones. And everything else sort of comes out of that, including the Women's Movement. SM (01:17:42): Right. I will just read these real fast. It will take maybe about five, well, maybe a minute. But I would certainly list McCarthyism in the (19)50s because I am talking about the things that really were historic events in the period of their lives. The Montgomery Bus Boycott in (19)56, Sputnik in (19)57 which was the thrust for education. I think Elvis Presley played a key role because of rock and roll music. ES (01:18:07): [inaudible] SM (01:18:08): It was the late (19)50s and he was the precursor. And the Beatles, obviously, in (19)64. The election of John Kennedy, Eisenhower's famous statement about the military industrial complex, which there is a great movie out on it. Certainly, the Bay pf Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis where we could have ended the world. Certainly, the Kennedy assassination, the Gulf of Tonkin, Johnson withdraws from the presidency. Everything in 1968. The assassinations and the convention and the trial. Barry Goldwater's rise which, at that time, did not seem very big as he was destroyed in the election, but was the beginning of the Reagan period really. My La, the bombing of Cambodia in 1970, and Kent State. And then I just had Woodstock in (19)69 and the Summer of 11, (19)67. The beatniks that I felt were important because of the fact they were antiestablishment, the communal movements, Watergate in (19)73, leaving Vietnam in (19)75. The Carter Presidency was important because it was during this time that the rise of the religious right was happening even though he was a Democrat. And the la- ES (01:19:25): Oh, also the oil shock. SM (01:19:27): Yes, the oil. I remember that. ES (01:19:29): That is a big thing. That is the moment at which this sort of belief in unlimited economic expansion comes to an end, you know? That you come up against limits, including environmental limits and economic limits. SM (01:19:47): Well, that My Lai speech that he gave, too, which- ES (01:19:49): [inaudible] SM (01:19:52): ... he has been definitely criticized for giving that, but it was really kind of truthful. ES (01:19:55): Mm-hmm. SM (01:19:56): And then certainly the Reagan election, perestroika, the fall of Communism, the Gulf War, Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, those kinds of things. And then I had on here historic events on the colleges, which what happened at Cornell that you so beautifully talk about in your book in (19)69, Jackson State in (19)70, Columbia in (19)69, Harvard Square, Wisconsin, a tragedy there. And then, of course, [inaudible] and San Francisco State. Those are all kind of things that stood out amongst the Boomers. That is for me. Is that a good representation? ES (01:20:34): I would say so. Do you have the Free Speech Movement? SM (01:20:36): Yes. I have that. I did not write it here, but it certainly is in there. And Freedom Summer, too. ES (01:20:43): Yeah. SM (01:20:43): Definitely. As a scholar, writer, professor, author, and you were the head of AAUP for- ES (01:20:51): No. I was the editor of the [inaudible] SM (01:20:55): Okay. What has been the relationship between faculty and students since (19)46? I bring this up because it is not talked about very much. I went into higher education because I saw the lack of communication that was happening between students and college administrators. They did not trust them. Not one iota. And I was at Binghamton at the time. We trusted faculty, but then faculty were really having some hard times at Binghamton because they wanted to be out of the protests, but they could not be. I remember Dr. Mahosky who had just come from Berkeley in our social department at Binghamton, he was challenged by the student leadership by saying, "You just graduated with a PhD in Berkeley. We want you over with us united against the recruiting on campus." And he said, "I am not going to do that. I have a job now. I have a little child to raise. I am not going to do what I did at Berkeley. I got a job." And then the student had debated him right on the spot and challenged him. And I actually kicked him out of class. And I will never forget that, but that was kind of what was happening. But we had faculty members in our residence halls that were always there for us, who would be willing to talk with us about the issues of the day. So as a person who has been a scholar herself, what has been the historic relationship, not between administration and students, but between faculty and students? And specifically, the Boomers when they were in college in the (19)60s and (19)70s. ES (01:22:35): You are dealing there.... Oh, that is my husband. Hang on a second. SM (01:22:38): Yup. Yeah, the relationship between students and faculty. ES (01:23:10): Oh, right. It varied on campuses. Younger faculty were often very close to students. And remember, in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the faculty was very young, you know? It is my generation who was lured into, I mean they literally threw money at us. Anybody who was a good student, they threw money at. I did not even think of going to graduate school. I was going to become a high school teacher. And I was nominated for a fellowship, and I said to myself, if I get a fellowship, I will go to graduate school. But I got the fellowship. I had not even applied to graduate school. SM (01:23:44): Wow. ES (01:23:45): That would not happen today, to put it mildly. And so, there was just this sort of generation of very young faculty members who were involved in things like teaching. That was a big movement in the early days of the Vietnam War. My ex-husband was very much involved with ethnicities for Chinese history. And anybody who knew anything about Asia would get involved so that there were faculty activists. They were very split. And I talk about that in my book about whether they should express their activism the way the students did, you know? Participating in demonstrations and sit-ins or whether they should do it through their intellectual work, through exploring Black history or women's history. And I see myself as, and my work as, very much, my political work, doing through my scholarship, looking at questions of dissent and [inaudible], in particular. Just mainly because I think that is probably what I do better than anything else, so that, therefore, it is probably the most effective use of my time and energy. SM (01:25:23): My whole career has been about bringing students and the faculty together because that was my job as co-curricular program director, director of student programming. And I did at every university I worked at. I loved working with the faculty. In fact, the faculty never thought of me as an administrator and that was a positive. They said, "We feel that you are part of us." And that got me in a little trouble at times when I had to take stands that were either faculty stands or administrative stands, and I was really more with the faculty than I was with the administration. But one of the things, a lot of the young people of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s were involved in Encounter. Encounter was a very important part of one's graduate education. And you even bring up in your book how a lot of the classes in that period in the (19)70s where the students would sit in the round and they'd be able to express their feelings on things, that is what the graduate education was like at Ohio State University in the (19)70s, was Encounter. And that is been heavily criticized, too, because it was forcing you to speak your mind and you could be vulnerable and you needed support, and then sometimes you can be on your own. And so, it was a great lesson for me. But they do not do that today. It is not part of the training. And I think we were closer to faculty members back then than we are now. Would you agree on that? ES (01:26:55): Well, I think what happened was that, in the mid (19)70s, beginning a little earlier in some fields, they stopped hiring full-time faculty members. So that there is a lost cohort of academics of people, in their really from their (19)40s and (19)50s, early (19)60s, that my generation is about, many of them have retired, many of my friends have retired. SM (01:27:39): Right. ES (01:27:42): And so, the age difference because of this lost generation, I think is a problem. I mean, when I was, well, in graduate school, I would not say that, but some of the people who I was closest to, faculty members, were maybe 10 years older than me. That is not a huge difference. But when they are 30 years older, they are another generation. SM (01:28:10): And that was my challenge. But I have a little philosophy of, never lose the kid in you, from Roy Campanella, you know? ES (01:28:16): Yeah. SM (01:28:18): And my graduate advisor was a PhD at 29 at Ohio State, Dr. Johnson. He came from the University of Illinois. How important were the students at ending the Vietnam War, in your opinion? A lot of people believe they played an important role. Some say it was just a minor role. ES (01:28:40): They played a role. I mean, can we quantify how important it was? Certainly, they brought a lot of publicity and attention to the anti-war course. But there were a lot of other people. Basically, for a lot of that period, I was just a faculty wife. I was not really active as an academic. A lot of people like me, ordinary citizens. Plus, of course, you have to [inaudible], you know? SM (01:28:59): Yes. ES (01:28:59): They were crucial, I think. They- SM (01:29:14): When you- ES (01:29:14): ... they needed the Americans. SM (01:29:22): ... Yeah. When you teach your course on Vietnam, what is the reason why we lost the war? What is the reason why we lost that war? ES (01:29:32): Because we could not win it. The way that the American government defined victory was an independent non-communist South Vietnam. That did not exist. And so, the only way we could win the war was not to lose it. And the only way that we could not lose it was by maintaining a massive American military presence. And that turned out to be politically impossible. So that was that. SM (01:30:09): And that is where the Vietnam syndrome really comes in, too, because when George Bush says the Vietnam syndrome is over, I mean, really? And still influences foreign policy and certainly where we are in Afghanistan today. ES (01:30:23): Yeah. SM (01:30:24): Do faculty today overall support the university as a vehicle for uplifting all races? This was a quality that really came about during the (19)60s and (19)70s. And where are the faculty today, liberal and conservative, with respect to, what is the purpose of the university? ES (01:30:48): Oh man, that is a tough one. To begin with, 70 percent of the faculty are what we call contingent faculty members. They are- SM (01:31:06): Adjuncts. ES (01:31:06): ... adjuncts or people on short term contract who have no chance of tenure. There is only 30 percent and shrinking of tenured and tenure-track faculty members. So that, I mean, that is absolutely the most important fact to know about higher education today, which is that the, what we would call the casualization of the faculty. SM (01:31:19): Yeah. ES (01:31:26): And so, when you talk about faculty, you are talking about people who are living usually very desperate lives. Or else, a lot of faculty, especially who's more vocationally-oriented programs, are people whose primary identification is as a practitioner in some other field than higher education. In other words, they are teaching part-time, but they're basically accountants who teach one course in accounting at a community college. They are accounted as faculty, but they do not probably identify themselves as faculty. And that is very important. And so, when you are talking about core faculty members, that is not the main group now teaching in American university. So, for traditional faculty members, how do they view the mission of the university? They are under enormous pressure, especially if they do not have tenure yet to produce because it's such a competitive atmosphere. They have to, at most schools now, you have to have a book. It is crazy. SM (01:32:57): Before you are even hired? ES (01:33:00): In some cases, yeah. SM (01:33:06): Uh-huh. ES (01:33:06): But at least for tenure, you need a book. SM (01:33:07): Yeah. ES (01:33:08): And the pressure is for people now in literary studies, and Modern Language Association did a survey of tenure practices and claim that people needed not just a book, but sufficient progress for the second book to get tenure. So, the bar keeps rising. Same thing for scientists. They have to get grants and it is increasingly more difficult to get grants than it used to be. From the good old days in the (19)60s, they threw money at people. Now even very well-known scientists often cannot get their research funding. And so, the pressures are on people to get grants to work in areas that are going to be popular, that are for scientists and engineers. And often these are fields in which there is more corporate influence, you know? Biomedical stuff, electronics and things like that. SM (01:34:32): One of the questions I have asked everyone from day one when I interviewed Senator McCarthy, the late Senator McCarthy, and that is, do you feel that the Boomer generation has an issue with healing like the Civil War generation that went to his grave not truly healed? I bring this question up because in 1995, a group of 14 students in our Leadership On The Road Program did meet Senator Edwin Muskie. I knew Senator Nelson and so we met 14 former United States Senators. And we were very lucky because Senator Muskie had just gotten out of the hospital and actually died four months later. But he gave us two hours and one of the questions the students came up with is, they were not alive in 1968, but they had seen the video and they wanted to know, they saw the divisions, the terrible divisions in America, assassinations, police and young people fighting each other, riots in the streets, burnings and so forth. And they wanted to know if their parents' generation were going to go to their graves not truly healed because of the tremendous divisions of the time, and they asked him this question. And is healing an issue in this generation? Do you feel it is an important issue when you teach the (19)60s? Because the Vietnam Memorial was... Jan Scruggs wrote, To Heal a Nation, which was trying to heal the Vietnam veterans and their families. But I think he wanted to also- Trying to heal the Vietnam veterans and their families. But I think he wanted to also try to heal the nation in its own way through the wall that heals. ES (01:36:12): It is an interesting question. It is not one I look at mainly it is when I teach the (19)60s, by the end of the semester I am rushing through it. So, I never get to sort of any final summing up and looking at that kind of issue. So, I am not really sure. Sometimes, certainly it's in the rhetoric of some of these people who are still blaming these radicals for everything that went wrong in the country. But I do not know whether at a sort of grassroots level it was still a live issue or not. I have a feeling that the economic issues that began to surface after 74 and the sort of transformation of the economy and the squeeze on the middle class, people are not thinking in terms of the (19)60s anymore. But I could be wrong. SM (01:37:16): Musty answered in a way the students were not even expecting. He basically said that we have not healed since the Civil War over the issue of race. And he had just seen the Ken Burns series on TV. And he had come in the hospital, and he gave a lecture on all the 600,000 who had died in the Civil War, almost an entire generation. He did not even mention the (19)60s. And here is a man who was the vice-presidential candidate in Chicago. Students looked at each other and were shocked, but that is where he was coming from. The issue of race has not healed. And I think I raised the question because when you go to the Gettysburg Battlefield, you will see a statue there. The last person alive who served in the war, and he died in 1924, something like that. And then when you go to the Vietnam Memorial, I interview Jan Scruggs. He thinks there are many that anti-war that come to that wall with their kids and regret that they did not serve because it was the watershed event of the era. And those who may have been against the war would not change feelings. But many of the boomer generation had brought their families there and some of their kids that said, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" Would you say also the lack of trust is an important quality within the boomer generation? They just were not a trusting generation. They all saw all these leaders lie at them. ES (01:38:48): Yeah. Well, sure. There was an enormous amount of hypocrisy and I think they were always has been. Franklin Roosevelt lied. SM (01:39:00): Yeah, Eisenhower lied on you too. ES (01:39:02): Sure. I mean, Roosevelt essentially pushed the United States toward the Second World War. We supported that war. So, the fact that he was doing a lot of covert stuff, military stuff, we overlooked because it was the good war. But that is what politicians do. SM (01:39:28): Would you say this lack of trust though is a positive quality? Because in political science 101 class, you are always taught that you need to challenge your government and never take anything for granted. And so, it is actually a good quality, not a bad quality? ES (01:39:41): I think so. But the problem is that it is very hard for people to get information. What we are seeing is a lot of government secrecy, enormous amount of government secrecy. It's really increased exponentially. One of the things I am looking at in my current work. SM (01:40:05): I am down to my final, actually, three questions. ES (01:40:10): Okay. Because I am going to have to leave. SM (01:40:10): Could you define the term counterculture in your own words? ES (01:40:16): Well, it is a very specific moment in American life in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, mainly of young people who are sort of sloughing off a kind of easy, materialistic set of values that had been fairly prevalent in American society. And teaching through drugs, through music, through communal living, through political activism. A whole kind of new, I use the word lifestyle, but that is really what we are talking about. A new set of values. SM (01:40:58): Could you define culture wars? ES (01:41:06): Oh yeah. That is something that I ordinarily do not believe in conspiracy, but I have got this document from the early (19)70s that was written by the future Supreme Court, justice Lewis Powell, who was advised- SM (01:41:25): Oh yes, that was in the book. ES (01:41:29): Advising a friend in the Chamber of Commerce about how to deal with liberal academics who were supposedly poisoning their students against, I guess, the corporate sector. And what you see is a very well-funded attack on whatever social movements and ideas came out of the (19)60s. SM (01:42:00): What are your thoughts on these two books? Clark Kerr's, Uses of the University, was a classic book, and it was about in the free speech movement. And I think Ernie Boyers, the College of the Undergraduate Years, is just a treasure. He was in the SUNY system, and I had a chance to meet him and briefly know him. Your thoughts on those two scholars and the meanings of their work? ES (01:42:28): Poor Clark Kerr. Again, apparently during the free speech movement, I have read his memoirs, I have been on programs with him and stuff. He is very evasive. He is a labor negotiator. He believes you get everybody together in a room and things will work out. And I think he was completely blindsided by how rigid the sort of conservatives and the board among the regions were, and how ideological the students were. He really just could not deal with it. And he was an end of ideology person. SM (01:43:27): Oh, yeah. And Daniel Bell, I interviewed him last summer before he died. ES (01:43:31): Yeah. And Boyer's stuff, I do not know as well. I mean, I know his stuff he did on the quote unquote, scholarship of teaching. And clearly, he wanted to de-emphasize research at the undergraduate level, which is part of the competitive trust within the American Academy. SM (01:44:06): Would you say that the best books that were written for the boomers at the period in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s were books like actually, that Culture of Narcissism was the late (19)70s. The End of Ideology was Daniel Bell's book in the early '60s. And then you had Theodore Roszak’s book, the Making of a Counterculture. And then you had The Greeting of America by Charles Reich. Those are all major pieces to me, over a 20-year period of critique of the generation. And do you agree? Do you think they are all valid works? ES (01:44:52): I have never read most of them. Actually, what is interesting, only when I got into doing this most recent book, did I read Bloom. SM (01:44:59): Oh, yes. ES (01:45:01): Which was the book, it was the best teller. I owned it, but I had never read it. Well, I read it and discovered tons of things in there. But a lot of these iconic books, I have a feeling, do not get read. SM (01:45:18): When I interviewed Daniel Bell, who was not, well, of course he is passed away. And that was at Harvard. It was a thunderstorm. And then there is this old house right near the Theological Seminary up there. And I am in that area there, and his wife is upstairs on a machine keeping her alive, and he has got a maid working for him. And he is not well. But when I asked that question about about Roszak and Reich, "Garbage. Garbage, they were not intellects." And then I said, "What did you think of Kenneth Kenison's Youth and Descent?" "That was a good book." So, it was interesting in talking. Who were the most influential scholars present as teachers who shaped the university any time after World War II? ES (01:46:18): Markusa, obviously. And then I think, I am not sure I could even name them all. It is the people who began doing stuff when Vietnam, who began looking at American farm policy. SM (01:46:48): Chomsky? ES (01:46:48): Yeah. But I was doing history, so I am sort of thinking of the revisionist scholars. SM (01:46:50): Oh, yes. ES (01:46:54): I am thinking of Herb Guttman, and people who were doing social history, very important in my field. E.B. Thompson, the British starring was crucial. Looking at working class history. It may be different in different fields. I am thinking, not just in terms of the general culture, but in terms of the intellectual history of specific fields. SM (01:47:31): And this is kind of a two-part question. Who were the winners in the (19)60s and (19)70s in higher ed or even in society? And who were the losers? And secondly, who were the heroes of the boomers? Were there winners and losers in the (19)60s and (19)70s? ES (01:47:41): I was going to say that is not the kind of a question that I would have asked or that I think I could give an answer to. Who were the losers? Linden Johnson, Richard Nixon. But I do not know that anybody won. SM (01:47:41): And the heroes? ES (01:47:41): People like King, obviously, Bob Moses, Mario [inaudible]. I think to a certain extent Bobby Kennedy was a very charismatic figure. I mean, what always struck me about Bobby Kennedy was how much he was able to change. SM (01:47:41): Oh yeah. ES (01:47:41): From this sort of tough guy enforcer in his early career to somebody who really was reaching out. Fannie Lou Hamer. That same pantheon of figures mainly in the Civil Rights movement, which I think, at least for me, was really just so exemplary in so many ways. SM (01:49:23): I do have one more question. And that is, did the boomers become the most unique generation in history? Did they change the world for the better as they said they were going to do when they were young? And I know that I have actually met with some of my former peers at my undergraduate school, and they still feel the way they did back in the '60s, that they feel that the generation did a lot to make the world better, but look at the word we are living in. So just your thoughts. This boomer generation is still, they are 65 at the oldest now, and they are going into old senior citizen period. ES (01:50:04): They are still out there. SM (01:50:04): Yeah, they are still out there. But for the first 65 years, what can you say about them? Did they change the world for the better overall? ES (01:50:12): George W Bush did not. I think it is mixed, very mixed. SM (01:50:24): Yeah. I know the only two boomer presidents have been Clinton and Bush, but actually Obama is a boomer, but he was only two. Finally, the last thing. I am done, but I wanted to read this and if you had any comment, just comment on this. And finally, we know only about 5 percent of the 70 million became activists in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Some used the statistic that most young people were not active or linked to causes as a negative. However, this still adds up to many millions. And my question is this, for those who were active, whether it be conservatives or liberals, do you feel they were very different in a positive way with respect to caring about equality, justice, freedom of speech, respect for differences, wanting to make the world a better place to live? Or was it all about, as some of their critics say, a generation that was selfish, not selfless. They avoided the draft in any way possible. Plus wanted instant satisfaction via demands due to their being brought up in the (19)50s as spoiled kids who were given everything by their depression era parents. This applies to white middle class students, but also eventually to the African American students and students who lived in poverty. Because they were also making demands, but for different reasons. ES (01:52:07): Well, you know that my answer would be that clearly there were real social problems. The Vietnam world was a major problem. And people were motivated to take action for very idealistic reasons. It did not turn out well in every case, but I do not think these people are self-interested. It is a mixture of people. SM (01:52:25): Was there any question I did not ask you-you thought I was going to? ES (01:52:25): No, that was very good. SM (01:52:25): Great. Any final comments? ES (01:52:25): Nope. SM (01:52:25): Testing one, two. Testing. ES (01:55:51): The other thing that I learned when I was doing, actually, my other book on McCarthyism. I did not learn this until somewhat later, was that my sixth-grade teacher had been fired for having been at communist. He had never come up before a committee. But the FBI had fingered him. And at that point, the school, it was not a public school, a private school that was being run by Kaplan University. And they just got rid of him. SM (01:56:27): As a young person though, you are just seeing these things for the first time. Your parents are one thing. But you were a young person, a child, or a teenager. What were you thinking about America? And this is of course post World War II America. ES (01:56:45): Yeah. I grew up in this sort of liberal ADA, Americans for Democratic Action. My family worked in favor of Stevenson; my mother worked for the Democratic Party in what was the Republican suburb at that time. And the rumor was always that you had to vote Republican in order to get your garbage collected, which was not true. But anyhow, so I grew up with a fairly, what would you say, liberal set of values, which I think I still retain. SM (01:57:34): Where would you go to high school? ES (01:57:36): I went to Cheltenham High School. SM (01:57:38): Outside Philly? ES (01:57:39): Outside Philadelphia. SM (01:57:40): Colleen McCue, it is a small world again. Colleen McCue was the president of our contemporary issues committee as a senior. She is in Scotland right now, is from that high school. Colleen McCue. ES (01:57:51): Sure. We had all kinds of people who went there. Benjamin Netanyahu went there after my time. Reggie Jackson went there. SM (01:58:01): Oh my God. ES (01:58:03): And it was a big public high school with a wide variety of kids. It was fun. And then I went to Radcliffe. That is where I got my undergraduate. And I stayed to get my PhD at Harvard. And I was in European diplomatic history, I got my PhD in European diplomatic history. I wrote my thesis on the French debt to the United States after the First World War. It was really boring. I did not enjoy it. And I sort of did not want to go on in that field. And so, this is about the early 1970s. I finished my degree, I really did not know what I wanted to do. I was married. I had two children. We were living in Cambridge at the time. My then husband was teaching Chinese history at Brandeis. And I got a job teaching freshman composition at Harvard. The way it worked was, you did not have to be in English, but you had to be a good writer. And they assumed somehow it would rub off on the students. And you could teach your course as a mini course, almost a little seminar, as long as you assigned a lot of writing and worked on the writing. And so, I decided I would teach a course on the 1950s, because I had grown up then. And I was curious. So, I started teaching this course. This is the mid '70s. And I discovered that there was no good book on McCarthyism that I could assign my students. Nothing. No scholarship, no nothing. And so, after about a year of this, I decided, well, I did not know what I wanted to do, but I was really interested in McCarthyism. And I would write a book about it. And I had already written a Chinese cookbook of all things. SM (02:00:28): Oh my God. ES (02:00:32): Which is another piece of my life. And I had a literary agent, and I got a fellowship from the Radcliffe, what was then called the Bunting Institute of Radcliffe, for a year to work on this project on McCarthyism. And after a little while, it became very clear to me that this was a big project and that there was another person who was writing a general book of McCarthyism. And I was sort of advised by a whole bunch of people to narrow down my topic. So, I decided I made a choice. I realized I could either look at McCarthyism in one city or I could take an occupational group. And I decided since I was an academic, I might as well look at the academy. And so that is how I got into writing my first book about McCarthyism. SM (02:01:32): I think, if I can remember correctly, there is only two books that I can recall, because I have them, are the Buckley book he wrote on McCarthyism. That was out and then there was one Richard Reeves? ES (02:01:46): Yeah, which was the general of McCarthy himself. SM (02:01:49): I think Richard Rovere wrote a book. ES (02:01:56): Wrote a book in about 1956, and Reeves wrote a biography. And it is Thomas Reeves, I think. SM (02:02:01): Thomas Reeves. Yeah. ES (02:02:02): Right. But there was not a general study. The general study that was being written at the time is by a guy named David Caute, C-A-U-T-E, who was a Brit. Who actually, I had been in a graduate seminar with him many years ago. And his book was, it is not bad, but it did not do what I did. And so anyhow, I finished this book on McCarthyism and the university, mainly looking at dozens of archives of universities, interviewing a lot of people. And then decided that I would go back to my original project of looking at McCarthyism as a whole, because there still was not the kind of book that I thought should be written. And by that time, I had moved to New York and had remarried. And I had changed. I do not think you could do it these days. But in those days, I was able to switch from European history into American history. And at the time my McCarthy in the University book came out, I was able to get a teaching job at Yeshiva in American history. And I began to work on the sort of general study of McCarthyism. I published; I do not know if you have seen this little book for classroom use. SM (02:03:42): No, I have not seen that. ES (02:03:49): Let me show you. SM (02:03:52): What influence do you feel that McCarthyism period had on the boomer generation, that was really in elementary school at the time. But subconsciously many kids were watching that on black and white TV. I know I was one of them. I did not quite understand it. Oh, I think I have seen that, but I do not have it. Yeah, I have seen that. ES (02:04:12): Well, this is the one that it is used. It is what people assign in their classes. Because it is much smaller than the other book. SM (02:04:25): Wow. There is the gentleman to his right. ES (02:04:29): Yeah. And that was a lot of fun. That is just a bunch of documents with a sort of hundred-page overview. SM (02:04:37): Do you think that the McCarthyism had any effect on young boomers? Some of I have interviewed say that they were too young, but others subconsciously were seeing this fear that was happening in America at the same time. The fear of speaking up. And they were cognizant of what was going on in the South too. If you were watching the news about the Civil Rights movement and the courage of the Dr. King and others to stand up and speak. ES (02:05:08): Right. I mean, I think what happened was certainly when I was growing up, the left was completely marginalized. I mean, I just plain did not even know it existed. When I was at Radcliffe, there apparently was a socialist club, but it was made up of what were called Red Diaper babies. People whose parents had been pretty much in the Communist Party. And people who were outside of that very small left-wing world did not even know it existed. SM (02:05:48): Kind of like the young Americans for Freedom in the (19)60s and (19)70s. The young Americans for Freedom were a conservative group that was born by Buckley. But a lot of people, when they talk about the actors of (19)60s, they totally omit them or say very little about them. ES (02:06:07): But I think the civil rights movement really made a huge difference because it is the moment at which there is a massive movement for social reform. And that changed how people thought about political action. Before that, I do not think there was very much going on. SM (02:06:36): So deep down inside, if people were young enough, especially the early boomers born say in (19)46 that were maybe six and seven years old when McCarthyism was really rampant and he was popular, I guess, through (19)54 or whatever, he's well known in the news. That had any effect on these as they grew older and they wanted to speak up, like so many did on with all the movements that took place in the late (19)60s. And we are not going to be held back. We are going to speak our minds. ES (02:07:05): Well, I think the impact was not so much what happened, but what did not happen. There is a missing generation of activists. There is missing institutional connections to some kind of ongoing left-wing tradition, that was shattered by McCarthyism. And so, what you have in the '60s with many members of the new left is the sense that they have to begin all over again. SM (02:07:42): You were at two places, obviously, where there was activism. Harvard had a lot of activisms. I have interviewed a couple professors at Harvard Square. ES (02:07:49): I was not there then. What happened was during the height of the quote unquote, (19)60s, my then husband was teaching at Princeton, which was not a particularly active community. And I can recall go- SM (02:08:03): Right. ES (02:08:03): And I can recall, as a faculty wife of all things, going to the organizing meeting of the Princeton chapter of the Students for Democratic Society with my husband and I think one or two other faculty members, at which the faculty members told the students, "This is a student run organization. The faculty cannot do it for you. You have to do it." So, Princeton was not particularly active in that period. SM (02:08:31): Yeah. Well, Harvard Square is one of those historic moments. Did being around students though... when you were around your peers, how would you define them? At the colleges when you were there, when you were working on that doctorate, when you were working on that masters and undergrad? ES (02:08:48): Yeah. Well, for some weird reason, I had a very interesting group of gangs of friends. A number of them were Red Diaper Baby and were communist, very close friends, and we were... well actually, I was politically active in the early 1960, around (19)62, (19)63, (19)64. I was very active in the Northern Support group for the Student Non-violent Coordinator Committee. I was very active in helping, especially the Freedom Summer stuff in 1964. I was involved, although then something else happened and I could not remain involved. But then when we moved to Princeton, which we did in 1965, I was again active in Smith, and became for a very short time before it dissolved, I think I was head of the Princeton Francis Smith, or something like that. SM (02:09:59): Okay. ES (02:10:10): So, I was politically active, not... I did not go south, mainly because I was married, and I thought, "Wives should not go leave their husbands." SM (02:10:15): Yeah, and so many of the people that were in the Freedom Summer in (19)64, we all know about Berkeley and the free speech movement, Mario Savio, people like that, Tom Hayden and so forth. I know this is a very broad question, but when you think of the boomer generation, again... first off, I would like to know whether you like the term, number one, and whether you like terms defining generations? Because I have had individuals like Todd Gitlin that said, "If you mentioned the boomer generation one more time, this interview was over." Because he does not like these little compartmentalization’s of the greatest generation, the silent generation, the boomer generation, millennial, generation x, boomers. He does not like it. ES (02:11:02): Yeah. SM (02:11:03): And I have had quite a few that do not like it. But then some say, "Well, we got to have something." ES (02:11:07): Yeah, it is convenient. I am a historian. It's convenient. As long as you contextualize it and realize that you cannot put everybody in this slot, and you need to look at what was actually going on during that time and realize that there were always alternative voices. SM (02:11:27): Yeah, but if someone... say you were in a high school and you were in a 11th grade class, and somebody had the courage to ask a question. That is: what is the first thing that comes to your mind when you think of the boomer generation? How would you respond? ES (02:11:46): These were people who came of age in the 1960s, their demographic bulge, which is why they cut so much attention. Because there were so many more of them proportionally within the population, and these were people who were on American campuses at the time of the... I do a lot of higher education, so this is a period when there's enormous expansion of American higher education. An enormous push actually, to get people to go to graduate school. This is something that I talk about in my book about the lost soul, of the role of graduate students in a lot of the student movements as an in-between group. The other thing, which I did not talk about, but I always talk about when I am describing the political activities and social movements of the 1960s, is... I illustrated by describing my apartment that I got when I was a second-year graduate student at Harvard. I do not know if you know Cambridge at all. SM (02:13:10): Yeah, I have been up there. I have interviewed 11 people at Harvard. ES (02:13:15): Well, my apartment was on Bank Street, which was about maybe five blocks from Harvard Square, and it was very centrally located. It was very cheap. It was $65 a month. Now admittedly, I did not have central heating, but I had a kerosene heater, and my landlord put in a better heater because I might burn down the house if... I might have. The bathroom left nothing to be desired, like a sink. I had to brush my teeth in the kitchen. But other than that, it was fine. It was three rooms. Neighborhood was safe, even though it was pretty inexpensive as a student neighborhood, and I had a roommate. What this meant, if my rent cost me what under $40 a month, it meant that there was not on the people, my generation, the kind of economic pressure that are on people today. SM (02:14:26): To work. ES (02:14:27): To work. You could live, I had a fellowship from... that paid for everything. I did not have to teach, and you could live very, very truthfully. That allowed people not only the freedom at that moment to become politically active, but also everybody knew they could get a job. You could get a job without having a PhD. My husband was hired at Princeton without having finished his PhD. That was common. SM (02:15:07): Wow. ES (02:15:08): And so, nobody worried about their economic situation. People probably did, but it was not the way it is today. People were not graduating with huge debt, and that economic security, I think, allowed for much more political expression than you have today. I think that is really key, and it's not something that people talk about a lot. SM (02:15:35): Some people have even gone to the extreme, as a follow-up for what you just said. People who really have been around a while and are more activists historically and have experienced what you experienced, but now see that there are some really good students who care, but they do not have the time to do things like they did when they were young. They feel... it is almost as if there is a conspiracy out there to keep young people busy, so they cannot take the time to protest, to challenge, to be an activist like in the past because they have no time. One interesting point, when you study the millennial generation, which... because I am in higher ed too. ES (02:16:17): Yeah. SM (02:16:17): The millennials in the Irving Howe book, Howe-Strauss states that they are like the boomer generation with respect that they want to leave a legacy, but they want to leave a legacy after they are 40. Whereas boomers wanted to change the world immediately, and a lot of it has to do with getting the degree, working and not having the time, raising a family, and so forth. I am not sure if all that is true, but the thing is, today's young people to me deeply care. They just do not have the time to be involved in fighting for a lot of things they care about. You raised a real good point there. This is a follow-up too. Are there any characteristics that you feel define the generation? Any strengths or weaknesses of the boomers that you knew and lived with or talked? ES (02:17:14): Yeah, they are somewhat younger than I am. I do not think I could characterize like that... SM (02:17:24): 70 million? ES (02:17:25): Yeah. SM (02:17:26): Yeah. ES (02:17:26): I do not think I could. SM (02:17:29): One of the things here that... today, the conservative, I will repeat that. I am going to read this part. How do you respond to the critics of the boomer generation who blame many of the problems today on what happened back in the (19)60s and early (19)70s? The attacks around the sexual revolution, worry, the drug culture, inter-spirituality as opposed to organized religion. The divorce rate, the beginning of the breakup, the American family, the divisiveness that we... so strong back then. No respect for law and order, violence, no respect for authority, and... lack of trust in leadership. Even some people have said the spending habits of the boomers, they were a materialistic generation. They spent, and that is one of the reasons why we are having the problems today. Individually, it is because, "I want it now and I am not going to wait for it." And then of course, overall, the challenge, the status quo, the tax on corporate influence, and group think, the concept of victimization, the welfare state mentality. These are all the things that conservatives attack the boomer generation, and particularly, the counterculture from the (19)60s and (19)70s. ES (02:18:55): Well, a lot of this is not... this is the period I teach, and what you see is certainly with regards to say, the chronicled sexual revolution. It was not a revolution. It was an evolution. It had been... sexual worries were changing, had been changing since the early 20th century. You were not seeing a quote unquote "revolution." What you were seeing was finally a realization of what actually was happening. I think the cultural changes, again, were things that would have happened, whether there was some conduct, quote unquote "(19)60s" or not. These changes in how people related, a greater informality, would have happened anyhow, and a lot of what conservatives’ attack, of course, is protests against things like the Vietnam War and white supremacy in the South, which were certainly not exactly the products of the boomer generation. SM (02:20:12): Oh, yes, definitely. You already mentioned earlier that one of the great qualities or developments that happened during the time when boomers were young is the expansion of higher education, and the increasing numbers of students who go to college, as opposed to even in the (19)50s. There was something going on. We know about the GI Bill after World War II and many came back, but certainly with the influx of new young people coming in, certainly acts as... but could you describe the state of higher education in America, just as a person who has studied it in the following periods? We are looking at 65 years now. Boomers have been alive now 65 years, the oldest one, and every single day, I hear that there are something like 13,500 people turning 65 who are boomers. Every day for the next God knows how many years. So, when you look at 1946 to 1960 in higher education, what comes to your mind? ES (02:21:17): Well, there is this period of really massive expansion, and a democratization of higher education. It really... before the second World War, it was very much an elite phenomenon. After the Second World War, it becomes essentially the badge of middle-class status. You get an expansion, especially in the public sector, not just at flagship universities like University of Michigan, but the creation of a much broader second tier of institutions. So, for example, I am looking at Pennsylvania, where I grew up. In the 1950s, there were all these state teachers’ colleges. Westchester... SM (02:22:10): Cortland. That was where I grew up, Cortland State teacher's house. ES (02:22:11): Sure. SM (02:22:11): Yeah. ES (02:22:16): And they all begin to expand. They become part of bigger systems, and so you are getting more and more access to higher education from people who have very different backgrounds. It's no longer something that these quotes unquote "elites," now... the higher education system is still very stratified. There are these elite institutions that the top end go attend, to community colleges and stuff, but the access to some kind of higher education really just grew enormously. As for people like myself who were in graduate school and young faculty members, what they were experiencing was this incredible job market. I have been working, doing research. I did some for the most recent, but I am going to do more on academic freedom in the 1960s, and... faculty activism, not... SM (02:23:18): Oh wow. ES (02:23:20): ...student activism, and I discovered a left-wing faculty group that saw itself as the faculty twin... were the alumni movement of SPS, essentially. SM (02:23:34): You wrote... you mentioned that briefly, that... ES (02:23:36): Yes, yes. SM (02:23:36): ...of the 25 at one school, 24 of them were let go. ES (02:23:41): Yes. Yeah. SM (02:23:41): I remember that. ES (02:23:42): Called the new University Conflict, and they had this newsletter. At one point, they were going to set up a job service, job referral banks for their members. What they said was, "Come to us for the next job from which you would be fired." But the fact was, most of the people who did lose their jobs for political reasons during this period were able to find other academic jobs if they wanted them. Some people just dropped out, but because of this enormous expansion... again, it is the fact of much more economic security really enabled people to be more politically active. SM (02:24:31): When you look at that period then, after Kennedy came into power 1961 to say 1980, when Ronald Reagan... how would you define that? There is so much.... how would you define that higher education during that time? ES (02:24:44): Well, that is still the period of expansion. The moment at which the expansion stops, it is pretty clear. It is about (19)74, (19)75. SM (02:24:54): Right. ES (02:24:55): The oil shocks, the moment. It is a crisis in... I think we have to say American world capitalism, and that is the moment at which you begin to see cut back in the amount of state funding of higher education. It is this period where you begin to see a concerted attack on the quote unquote "liberal" academy from a bunch of conservative events, begin to fund right-wing foundations and writers, and start what we see as I think a really major attack on what is considered a liberal academy. SM (02:25:45): And that is really from late (19)70s through today, really. ES (02:25:48): Yes. Yes. SM (02:25:49): And Ronald Reagan played a key part in that because... but he had a passion... ES (02:25:55): He began it in California. He ran against Berkeley in 1966. SM (02:25:58): Yes. Yeah. That is an unbelievable development, and that he used the same package when he ran for President too, law and order. Law and order, and against the welfare state. ES (02:26:10): Yep. SM (02:26:11): Remember, those are the two things. You have written three books. Oh, you have written more than three books, but I am not making a comment on this book because I did not know about this one. But the three books, the one on... the No Ivory Tower, the book on McCarthyism, and your most recent one. ES (02:26:28): Yeah. SM (02:26:28): Higher Education, the Lost Soul. In a few words, what was the basic premise of all three of those books? And secondly, when you look at the three major premises of these books, how did the main information of that premise affect the boomer generation? ES (02:26:52): Well, the main thing I am concerned about is free speech. Freedom of expression, intellectual freedom, and ability to express dissent about major political issues. I think that is what I have been looking at in one way or another in all of my work. At the moment, I am working on yet another book on a study of American political repression. Very general from, as we say, the Puritans to the Patriot Act, and I am working with a political scientist who's a political theoretician, because when I was working on all of these books, I had assumed that political theorists had written something about political repression. Seems to be a rather important subject, and yet it turns out there is very little, which was surprising. Anyhow, I have a college who is a political theorist at Brooklyn College, teaches at CUNY, and he is interested in exactly the same things I am, so we're working on this together. But it is all about essentially the suppression of defense and looking at how it operates. Stuart, is there anything I can get you? Stuart (02:28:32): No, I am fine. ES (02:28:32): Okay. SM (02:28:37): Yeah. When we talk about freedom of speech, the first thing that always comes to my mind, and I do not think it is being taught very well in higher education today in graduate programs, is the influence that free speech movement had on the history of higher education, in my opinion. I went to Ohio State in the early (19)70s, and we talked about it all the time. We have talked about legal aspects when police can come on campus, when they cannot come on campus and everything. But the one thing that always strikes me about the free speech movement is people try to separate it, saying that it was the early... the middle (19)60s as opposed to the other protests... ES (02:29:14): Oh, right. SM (02:29:15): ...when it was, in reality, the precursor, what was to come. Secondly, Mario Savio, whether you like him or not, his words will forever... I had been on Berkeley many times. I took part-time courses there too. The fact is that the thing that stands out in that whole movement was the fact that ideas, ideas is what the university is all about, not corporate control. So a lot of the battles that took place during that (19)64, (19)65 period, and many of the battles in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s on even my campus at SUNY Binghamton, was that we wanted a campus of ideas and not departments, grants, fundraising, and everything linked toward corporate control of what can happen on university campus. What is upsetting to me today is it seems like we have forgotten everything about the free speech movement. ES (02:30:14): Yeah. SM (02:30:14): We know it is history. But I interviewed Arthur Chickering who wrote Education and Identity, and I also interviewed Alexander Astin, the great scholar in California. ES (02:30:24): Yeah. SM (02:30:24): After each interview, I said, "What is your biggest disappointment, as people who have lived in higher education, through your whole career?" And they both said corporate control of the university, and they are teaching PhD students in higher ed. ES (02:30:36): Yeah. SM (02:30:37): Just your thoughts on the free speech movement, how important it was, and... ES (02:30:42): Well, it is emphasized the significance of higher education institutions, of higher education, as those places where people not only can debate ideas freely, but also given, and in the contemporary world, as you know, the media is increasingly shrinking and becoming... speaking more to niches and not to a general public. We do not have that general debate out there at any high level. It is all sound bites, and so the universities are really the last place where you can deal with complicated ideas, where you can deal with complexity, where things are not just black or white, but are much more nuanced. And of course, that is something that I think we want to... talk about a corporate conspiracy, but clearly, we are seeing a dumbing down of public debate, public discourse. Universities are really the last place that is pushing back against that, but as they are being starved for funds, as there are all these pressures from the outside, against tenured radicals, you that... SM (02:32:22): Oh, yeah. ES (02:32:22): ...whole business, that universities are increasingly on the defensive. Their administrations are scrambling for money. They're totally focused on the bottom line, and what that means, of course, is that they have to go out and get students. It creates a very competitive atmosphere on campuses. It is competitive for faculty, competitive for students, and the value of a desire to learn, a desire to find things out, the desire to find things out for oneself is a sideline in this need for getting ahead. For what you see now is an increasing vocationalization of higher ed, where people are essentially majoring in occupational therapy and not liberal arts, which I think are increasingly necessary for the creation of an informed citizenry. What we are losing is that informed citizenry that can think about reality, rather than something that is been filtered through advertising and celebrities, and this whole sound bite culture. SM (02:33:55): I have this theory, and I like your opinion on that, and that is based on my experiences of 30 years in higher ed at four different universities, Jefferson being one, high University of Ohio State, and Westchester University. That is that it seems the term activism is a term that universities are deathly afraid of. They like the term volunteerism. Everybody is volunteering. In my studies, I read that volunteerism is at its peak when it's usually a conservative era, but certainly the Peace Corps was about volunteerism. Volunteers and service to America was the same thing, and if you go to any university campus, now just about 95 percent of students are found in some volunteer activity. Some required, and some do it on their own and join clubs. But when you talk about activism, I have always believed that activism is a step beyond volunteerism. Volunteerism is... might be twice a week or once a week, but 24/7 is what activism is. It is a state of mind, is a state of being, and it's about speaking up. It is about challenging. It is about seeing injustice and trying to right it. I can go on and on here. ES (02:35:14): Yeah. SM (02:35:14): Do you believe that universities today, whether it be the university you teach at, or Berkeley, or SUNY Binghamton in my alma mater, or Ohio State, my other alma maters... are they afraid of the word activism? ES (02:35:28): Oh, sure. What we are seeing, of course... one way of looking at it is this kind of, what do they call it? Civic service or something, that is being pushed... SM (02:35:41): Oh, yes. ES (02:35:41): ...on many campuses. It is very much about individualism. It is individual action. Whereas what you are talking about is really a collective action that is directed against systemic problems. In other words, it is not enough for individuals who work in food kitchen, or food banks. Maybe we should change the laws and create a different kind of welfare system, so that there is a big difference here between individual acts of charity and something that is really challenging the system at a much deeper level. SM (02:36:30): I agree. We had an activist series at Westchester who was growing. We had Tom Hayden, we had Daniel Berrigan. We had... it was really growing, and we read Howard Zinn's thin book, and we had faculty members coming in with students reading it together. We were asked to stop it because it was... I do not know why, but we were asked to stop it, and even though it was becoming a success, so something was happening beyond the areas that I know that were threatening someone. ES (02:37:00): Yeah. When was this? SM (02:37:03): This was recently at my university within the last 10 years. ES (02:37:08): Yeah. Oh, that is interesting. SM (02:37:08): And it might have been as much against me as it was against what we were doing, because we had a small group of students and they did not think it was enough people that were involved. It was a long story. But when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly, and I also interviewed David Horowitz, they had mentioned to me that... they said that the radicals of the (19)60s are now controlling today's universities. But then I asked them, "Let us be more specific here, because I know a lot of conservatives who are running universities today." They said, "Well, what we're really saying is that they are running. They control the curriculum." And do you believe that? Phyllis Schlafly is very strong on this. She said the radicals of the (19)60s are now controlling the curriculum of the university. ES (02:37:53): No, no. What happened is that in the (19)60s, universities expanded. We have already talked about that, grow up in whole new groups of people, and universities began to address issues that they had not addressed before because there was pressure from their own students. But it's not because the students were radical, it is because the students were African-American and Hispanic, and felt somewhat excluded. The administration, much more than the faculty themselves, are the ones who created some of these changes. One group I studied, I looked at for my book on the Lost Soul of Higher Education, were people who started women's studies programs. Well, these women may have been radical, but the pressure to expand women's studies came from their students, and the administrators were very, very happy to accommodate them to create women's studies programs. Why? Because students were taking them. They were popular, and that feeds this bottom line mentality. If you can attract a lot of students, your administration likes you. SM (02:39:30): Yes, definitely. That is one of the things. Would you say that when you look at the era of the boomer generation and the accomplishments that came out of the period, some people say they were negatives, like I mentioned earlier. Their opinions, but that one of the greatest accomplishments that ever came out of this period was the fact that the women's studies, the black studies, the Native American studies, Asian American studies, all the different studies programs that were all criticized in one way or another at the beginning, but have become very legitimate and important parts of the University of today, just... ES (02:40:01): Well, yeah, I think so. I mean... SM (02:40:02): Just ... ES (02:40:02): Well, yeah, I think so. I mean, also one of the big changes that we are seeing in curriculum, and my school, which is a very conservative school, to put it mildly, has just implemented some curricular reforms, much of it having to do with the introduction of non-Western studies, of looking at the rest of the world, which is absolutely crucial. That is not being propelled by (19)60s radicals, it is being propelled by the changes out there in [inaudible] society. SM (02:40:37): Yeah. I remember when Henry Cisneros spoke at the NAFA conference about maybe 12 years ago, former mayor of San Antonio. He said, "We have been preaching a long time in higher education about preparing our students for the global world." We are in the technology world here, so it is a little different, but even in the (19)60s, and even then, you can communicate faster than you could in the (19)50s. So basically, is not that what it is all about? We need to prepare students for the global world that we are facing. And that is when we talk about Muslim studies and understanding Islam, it is preparing our students to understand the cultures of the world, the people they are going to live with, the people they are going to be work with, and the people who are going to be their bosses. That is what Henry Cisneros was talking, said, "You need to prepare for the future, not be afraid of the future." And that was his presentation, do not fear the future. Prepare for the future. I get emotional on this. This is a very important topic. Well, when did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end? ES (02:41:47): Oh boy. I teach a course on the (19)60s, so I would devote at least one class to that. It really varies. I think, you can always say, "Well, let us take the election of Kennedy," but a lot of stuff began earlier, certainly the Civil rights movement is building up from what a civil rights historian called the long civil rights movement from the Second World War on. From the other hand, you can say, "Well, the escalation of the Vietnam War in 1964, (19)65 may have kind of created the more raucous part of the (19)60s." Certainly with regard to say women's issues, it is really not till the, again, sort of the mid-(19)60s that women become much more self-conscious. Betty Freidan, Feminist Mystique is published in 1963. When does it end? And again, I think you have to look at sort of the mid-(19)70s, the oil shock, end of the Vietnam War. SM (02:43:17): Was there a watershed moment that stands out above everything else? ES (02:43:23): Moments. No one single one I think SM (02:43:28): Some people will believe that we are still, well because of the culture wars, (19)60s never ended because of the battles that are ongoing and continue. If you go to the Vietnam Memorial, you see if any of them have still got their problems with those who are in the anti-war movement. And that is just a small segment. But you see the battle within the university that you write so brilliantly about to the two words that stand out is the concept of truth, which was the Western civilization, the truth of Aristotle and Plato and so forth. And then relevance. ES (02:44:07): Oh yes. SM (02:44:08): Which is, it has got to be relevant to me. Well, what about, we are Western civilization is we got to prepare you as a liberal person. So those are all part of the ongoings. I think we're doing okay timely. Any other thoughts on ... ES (02:44:27): Well, I think the country has turned so far to the right since the 1970s that his talk about being under [inaudible] of the (19)60s is just fantasy. But we are living in a very conservative moment in which things that were taken for granted in the (19)60s are deemed totally unrealistic like the fact that the government might be able to do some good and create valuable social programs. SM (02:45:13): Yes. ES (02:45:13): Nope. That is ... SM (02:45:14): The one thing I wanted to ask you because you bring it up in the book, is the fact that the university was, again, Mario Savio said that the purpose of the university is about ideas. So, when the conservative [inaudible], whether it be Mr. Pipes, who many people on our campus cannot stand, they always bring him up. Something about him rubs people the wrong way. Irving Crystal, that group of people. Okay, what am I trying to say here? ES (02:45:49): About these cultural conservatives? SM (02:45:51): Yeah, the cultural conservatives. I was trying to get to a point here about ... They talk about the thing that we talk about. If truth ... If Savio says that it is about ideas and Dr. Pipe says it is something about truth, what is the difference? Because there are different truths. So, Pipe has a problem with different truths. You raise this in your book. ES (02:46:22): Okay. Well, what is weird is that to a certain extent, these people who are bemoaning the loss of that kind of sense of a centeredness and a common culture, which is a common "elite" culture, I often have a particular sympathy for them. Because one of the big fights that I see, and that I think one of the big problems within universities is not so much the content of general education courses, but the fact that, what is it now, I think over 60 percent of all students are there not getting any exposure to it. They are taking occupational therapy, they are taking hotel management, that are not getting exposure to anything that is giving them an ability to think critically about their own lives and about their own culture and their own country. And so rather, the people who are concerned about the denial of absolute truth and how humanism becomes relativist and-and all that, are not dealing with the real problem. And I think they probably do not really care that 70 percent of all college students are studying hotel management because they are elitist. They are only thinking about the top tier of upper class and upper middle-class students who are making it into these highly selective elite schools. They are the students who are going to Williams who are going to Stanford and Harvard and University of Michigan maybe. And the ones who are going to Westchester University, they do not care about. So, I think it is very much a class issue, actually- SM (02:48:37): Yeah, access to higher education is one of the greatest accomplishments that I have seen in my lifetime. And to see criticism of affirmative action or multiculturalism and diversity, not only with African Americans, but Latinos and women and gay and lesbian students and transgender, Asian students and Native American, you name it, I cannot understand why people are critical of that. And to be openly blatant about the fact that wanting to go back to the way it was when white America, white middle class America, was basically was the college students of the era just boggles my mind. And that is kind of where we are today. ES (02:49:22): Yeah. Well, we are talking about class warfare. SM (02:49:27): Right, what Dr. King talked about. We got 30 more minutes. I got one more here. One of the things I wanted to mention too, you probably talk about this in your class, is the generation gap. There was that historic, oh, that is historic, that Life Magazine cover, which I have framed, it was in my office for many years, of the young student that was in blue with his father pointing fingers at him and one eye, and he is pointing fingers back at his dad in the other eye. And it is basically talking about the generation gap between parents of the World War II generation and their kids over culture, over war, a lot of other things. Did you experience that a lot in your own family, number one? And did you see it amongst your peers on college campuses when you were there? ES (02:50:16): No. SM (02:50:16): And I bring the generation gap up because of the fact that in 1984, there was a book that came out called The Wounded Generation, and there was a symposium made up of veterans like Phil Caputo, Jack Wheeler, Jim Webb, who is now a senator, Bobby Mueller, and James Stahls. And the purpose of the meeting was the fact that Webb brought up, he said that we all think of the boomer generation as a service-oriented generation because of Kennedy's ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. The Peace Corps and giving back. But Mr. Webb said it's anything but. The 60s generation was not about service because if it was about service, they would have gone and served their nation in the Vietnam War. And he said, "So it is as much about the generation gap between parents and their kids, but it is also between the generation itself, those who served and those who did not." What are your thoughts on the generation gap and the intrageneration gap? ES (02:51:25): [inaudible]. There is a wonderful book about the people who serve in Vietnam called the Working-Class War. Do you know it? SM (02:51:33): [inaudible] ES (02:51:35): Christian Appy, A-P-P-Y. SM (02:51:36): Okay. ES (02:51:37): Wonderful book. And I teach Vietnam and I usually assign it. And basically, the military draft, because of the [inaudible] students [inaudible], meant that the people who were drafted or who volunteered in order to escape the draft came from working class backgrounds, mainly inner-city kids, rural kids. It is the same today. Disproportionately. And middle-class white kids did not serve. Very, very few. I mean, I knew some when I was a graduate student, but there were very few. And so, it is really a class issue here. That is what we are talking about. There were some upper-class kids, John Kerry comes to mind. SM (02:52:43): Oh yes. ES (02:52:44): Who did, but that is the exception. SM (02:52:52): Jim Webb, I almost had an interview with him before he became senator and now it is impossible we can get through to him, but he is very vocal on a lot of subjects. He is responsible for the three-man statute being there because a lot of people did not want it there, including very big Vietnam vets. But is that very strong language that he is using, saying that he condemns the entire generation of, if they are labeled, that service-oriented generation because they did not serve in Vietnam? ES (02:53:20): No, it's those of us who opposed the war felt that by working in the anti-war movement, we were doing our service. SM (02:53:30): See that that is an important point too that is come up, that some anti-war people have believed that they were veterans too of the war, but in a different way. And when I mentioned that to Vietnam veterans, some of them laugh it off. They said they did not serve in Vietnam. ES (02:53:46): No, they did not. But I do not think it is the same thing, but that what they were doing was what they felt was best for the country. And I feel very strongly, I mean, I think Vietnam was absolutely crucial for anybody who lived through the (19)60s, and it was an immoral, terrible war. And whatever anybody could do to stop it, I think was justified. SM (02:54:19): What did the universities learn from the (19)60s and (19)70s that they have carried into today? I know that we had new leadership at the top of that university and that many of the presidents of that era have died off. But what did they learn from that period and what have they forgot? ES (02:54:41): Well, I think actually ... I think what happened was not so much as they learned things. I think that what happened was by the end of the (19)60s, beginning of the (19)70s, all of a sudden, they are confronted with unprecedented financial issues and they immediately switched to a different mode. When we talk about the corporatization of the American university, what we're really talking about is the fact that from the early (19)70s on, college and university administrations are essentially concerned with financial issues. And that they are doing whatever they can to raise money, to have good relationships with state legislatures, to help their faculty get grants. You have, for example, in 1980, the passage of the Bayh-Dole Amendment, which allows universities to actually profit from the research, the federally funded research that their faculty members have been carrying out. And you get more and more academic administrators behaving not as intellectual leaders or public intellectuals, but as fundraisers. SM (02:56:28): That is one of the reasons why I left the university. ES (02:56:28): Yeah. And that is- SM (02:56:28): Refused to be a fundraiser and link educational programs like the [inaudible] America Conference to Money. I mean, I refuse. ES (02:56:40): Yeah, well- SM (02:56:40): I knew my time was up. ES (02:56:41): Yeah. SM (02:56:43): So, you raise a very important point here. ES (02:56:47): So, I think whatever concerns they may have had student activism or anything, that was of secondary importance. And they begin to identify with the institution as an institution rather than with the institution as some kind of educational entity or a place for intellectual discourse or for any kind of research other than research that can be measured either in money or in some sort of terms of prestige. The US News and World Report absolutely undermined higher education in that respect. SM (02:57:30): It is interesting because the university has been really doing this assessment thing. You got to prove that what you do has value to students. And I would say that we would get instant responses back from students who had been involved in the program, but you cannot assess the importance of a speaker, a forum, a conference on a student immediately. It is something that could impact you years from now. They want instant satisfaction and instant assessment. And I say, you cannot do that in student life. You cannot. You can get your data, but it is just not going to happen. And it's just like, it is amazing. An assessment is everything now, as you well know. Prove it has value. And if you do not prove it immediately, then maybe we will cut it. Would you say that the university is really the main battleground now in America with the respect of the culture wars? ES (02:58:30): Yes. SM (02:58:30): And maybe this is what frustrates the conservatives more than anything else is they have not been able to get control of it. ES (02:58:39): Yes. I think that it is also happening of course, and in the schools as well, the No Child Left Behind Act has been absolutely disastrous with respect to force, again, it is data driven, so they measure what they can measure rather than what might have some intrinsic importance, but cannot be quantified. And so, you have got schools all over the country teaching to the test rather than actually helping students learn. It is not very useful. It is certainly diverting attention, money, and quality education is not occurring. SM (02:59:34): You bring up also that the think tanks that have really developed since the late (19)70s, early (19)80s, the Heritage Foundation, groups like that, are basically, because I know I have interviewed quite a few of them, and a couple of them are my friends. I have interviewed Michael Barone and people like that, Marvin Olasky. But the question I want to bring up here is many that went into these think tanks felt that they could not survive in a university, that the liberal university was ostracizing conservative faculty members so for them to truly get their voice, they had to leave the university and join. And of course, the Oland Foundation was the one you talk about to fund them with lots of money to get their point of view out there. This is part the culture wars, this is like- ES (03:00:28): Yes. If there were left wing foundations out there, I might leave too. But not because of that, but because who does not want to be well paid to write books? But it's only right wingers who are getting that kind of money. SM (03:00:47): And they are the main threat to the universities then today really. ES (03:00:50): The only person, I am sure there are others, but the only person I can think of who is sort of a prolific writer on the left who I guess left the university because I know she's got a [inaudible]. SM (03:01:05): Oh yeah. ES (03:01:06): She is obviously supporting herself by her writing, but she is not in a think tank. There are not any. SM (03:01:13): Yeah. I interviewed Charles Murray and we all know him, and Christina Hoff Summers, people like that, Bruce Sidell, who fall into that group. Would you consider the Muslim students of today the Communists, the students who were labeled, or faculty members that were labeled as communists in the (19)50s, and African American students in the early late (19)50s and early (19)60s? I am saying we have a xenophobia in this country with, which is a fear of people who are different. And we love the status quo. And whenever it is threatened by any group trying to get access to what other people have, there is resistance. Would you say Muslim students are that way today? ES (03:02:02): Yeah, I think there is a kind of demonization that, especially since 9/11, has targeted Muslims and people from the Middle East, no question about it. SM (03:02:15): And you see that link between the McCarthy period too and the ostracizing those people who may have been labeled communists and then an African-American student. ES (03:02:27): Sure. You have a similar kind of scapegoating going on. SM (03:02:34): Well, I only got about six more questions here. Could I use your restroom? ES (03:02:41): Sure, yeah. I will show you where it is. SM (03:02:50): I have just a listing here, and I am not going to list all these things. I just wrote them out here. But what do you consider the major events in Boomer lives of ... What do you believe, when you teach the (19)60s, some of the major events that really shaped their lives from that period? I have specific events, I do not know if you want me to read them here or list them. ES (03:03:16): Well obviously, the Civil Rights Movement and the Vietnam War. I mean, I think those are the two key ones. And everything else sort of comes out of that, including the women's movement. SM (03:03:35): Right. Things that really ... I will read these real fast. Take maybe about five, well, maybe a minute, but I would certainly list McCarthyism in the (19)50s because I am talking about the things that really were historic events in the period of their lives. The Montgomery Bus Boycott in (19)56, Sputnik in (19)57, which was the thrust for education. I think Elvis Presley played a key role because of rock and roll music was the late (19)50s, and he was the precursor of the Beatles, obviously in 64. The election of John Kennedy, Eisenhower's famous statement about the military industrial complex, which there is a great movie out on it. Certainly, the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis, where we almost, boomers, we believed could have ended the world. Certainly, Kennedy assassination, the Gulf of Tonkin, Johnson withdraws from the presidency. Everything in 1968. ES (03:04:30): Yeah. SM (03:04:31): The assassinations, and the convention, and the trial. Barry Goldwater's rise, which at that time did not seem very big as he was destroyed in the election, but was the beginning of the Reagan period really. Emmy Lai, the bombing of Cambodia in 1970, and Kent State. And then I just had Woodstock in 69, and the Summer of Love in (19)67, the beatniks that I thought were important because of the fact they were anti-establishment, the communal movement, Watergate in (19)73, leaving Vietnam in (19)75. The Carter presidency was important because it was during this time that the rise of the religious right was happening even though he was a Democrat. And the- ES (03:05:15): Also, the oil shock. SM (03:05:16): Yes, the oil. I remember that. ES (03:05:18): I think that is a big thing. That is the moment at which this sort of belief in unlimited economic expansion comes to an end, that you come up against limits, including environmental limits and economic limits. SM (03:05:34): Well, that Mỹ Lai speech that he gave too, which he is definitely criticized for giving that, but it was really kind of truthful. And then certainly the Reagan election, Perestroika, the fall of communism, the Gulf War, Bill Clinton, Monica Lewinsky, those kinds of things. And then I add on here, historic events on the colleges, which what happened at Cornell that you so beautifully talk about in your book in (19)69, Jackson State in (19)70, Columbia in (19)69, Harvard Square, Wisconsin, a tragedy there. And then of course [inaudible] college, and San Francisco State, those are all kind of things that stood out amongst the boomers. That is for me, is that a good representation? ES (03:06:19): I think so. You have the free speech movement. SM (03:06:20): Yes. Yeah, I have that. Did not write it here, but it certainly is in there. And Freedom Summer too, definitely. As a scholar, writer, professor, author, and you were the head of AAUP for- ES (03:06:34): No, I was the editor of its magazine. SM (03:06:37): Okay. What has been the relationship between faculty and students since (19)46? I bring this up because it is not talked about very much. I went into higher education because I saw the lack of communication that was happening between students and college administrators. They did not trust them. Not one iota. And I was at Binghamton at the time. We trusted faculty, but then faculty were really having some hard times at Binghamton because they wanted to be out of the protests, but they could not be. I remember Dr. Mahaski, who had just come from Berkeley in our social department of Binghamton, he was challenged by the student leadership by saying, "You just graduated with a PhD in Berkeley. We want you over with us united against the recruiting on campus." And he said, "I am not going to do that. I have a job now. I have a little child raise. I am not going to do what I did at Berkeley. I got a job." And then the student had debated him right on the spot and challenged him and actually kicked him out of class. And I will never forget that. That was kind of what was happening. But we had faculty members in our residence hall that were always there for us who would be willing to talk with us about the issues of the day. So as a person who's been a scholar herself, what has been the historic relationship, not between administration and students, but between faculty and students? And specifically, the boomers when they were in college in the (19)60s and (19)70s. (19) (03:08:14): You're dealing there ... Oh, that is my husband. Hang on a sec. SM (03:08:17): Yep. Yeah, the relationship between students and faculty. (19) (03:08:30): All right. It varied on campuses. Younger faculty were often very close to students. And remember in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the faculty was very young. It's my generation who was lured into ... I mean, they literally threw money at us. Anybody who was a good student, they threw money at us. I did not even think about going to grad school. I was going to become a high school teacher. And I was nominated for a fellowship. And I said to myself, "If I get a fellowship, I will go to graduate school." But I got the fellowship, I had not even applied to graduate school. That would not happen today, to put it mildly. And so, there was just this sort of generation of very young faculty members who were involved in things like teach-ins, that was a big movement in the early days of the Vietnam War. My ex-husband was very much involved with that. He taught Chinese history and anybody who knew anything about Asia would get involved. So, there were faculty activists, they were very split, and I talk about that in my book, about whether they should express their activism the way the students did, participating in demonstrations and sit-ins, or whether they should do it through their intellectual work, through exploring black history or women's history. And I see myself and my work as very much my political work doing through my scholarship, looking at questions of dissent and regression in particular. Mainly because I think that is probably what I do better than anything else so that therefore, it's probably the most effective use of my time in energy. SM (03:10:48): My whole career has been about bringing students and faculty together. Because that was my job as [inaudible] program director, director of student programming. And I did it at every university I worked at. I loved to work with the faculty. In fact, faculty never thought of me as an administrator. And that was a positive. They said, "We feel that you are part of us." And that got me in a little trouble at times when I had to take stands that were either faculty stands or administrative stands. And I was really more with the faculty than I was with the administration. But one other thing, a lot of the young people of the late (19)60s, early (19)70s were involved in encounter. And encounter was a very important part of one's graduate education. And you even bring up in your book how a lot of the classes in that period in the (19)70s where the students would sit in the round and they would be able to express their feelings on things. That is what the graduate education was like at Ohio State University in the (19)70s, was encounter. And that is been heavily criticized too, because it was forcing you to speak your mind and you could be vulnerable and you needed support and then sometimes you could be on your own. And so, it was a great lesson for me. And so, it was a great lesson for me. But they do not do that today. ES (03:12:05): No. SM (03:12:05): It is not part of the training. And I think we were closer to faculty members back then than we are now. Would you agree on that? ES (03:12:14): Well, I think what happened was that beginning in the mid (19)70s, beginning a little earlier, in some fields, they stopped hiring full-time faculty members so that there's a lost cohort of academics, of people in their... Really, from their (19)40s and (19)50s, early (19)60s. My generation, many of them have retired, many of my friends have retired. And so, the age difference because of this lost generation, I think, is a problem. I mean, when I was in graduate school, I would not say that, but some of the people who I was closest to, faculty members, were maybe 10 years older than me. SM (03:13:19): Yeah. ES (03:13:19): That is not a huge difference. But when they are 30 years older, they are another generation. SM (03:13:24): And that was my challenge. But I had a little philosophy of never lose the kid in you from Roy Campanella. And my graduate advisor was a PhD at 29 at Ohio State. Dr. Johnson came from the University of Illinois. How important were the students in ending the Vietnam War, in your opinion? A lot of people believe they played an important role. Some say it was just a minor role. (19) (03:13:51): They played a role. I mean, can we quantify how important it was? Certainly, they brought a lot of publicity and attention to the anti-war cause, but there were a lot of other people. Basically, for a lot of that period, I was just a faculty wife. I was not really active as an academic. A lot of people like me, ordinary citizens, plus of course you have to count the Vietnamese they beat. They were crucial, I think. And needed the Americans. SM (03:14:31): Yeah. When you teach your course on Vietnam, and what is the reason why we lost the war, what is the reason we lost that war? ES (03:14:40): Because we could not win it. The way that the American government defined victory was an independent non-communist South Vietnam. That did not exist. And so, the only way we could win the war was not to lose it. And the only way that we could not lose it, was by maintaining a massive American military presence. And that turned out to be politically impossible. So that was that. SM (03:15:16): And that is what the Vietnam Syndrome really comes in too, because now when George Bush says the Vietnam Syndrome is over, I mean, really? And still influences foreign policy and certainly over where we are in Afghanistan today. Do faculty today overall support the university as a vehicle for uplifting all races? This was a quality that really came about during the '60s and '70s. Where are the faculty today, liberal and conservative, with respect to, what is the purpose of a university? ES (03:15:51): Oh man, that is a tough one. To begin with, 70 percent of the faculty are what we call contingent faculty members. SM (03:15:59): Adjuncts. ES (03:16:00): They are adjuncts or people on short term contracts who have no chance of tenure. There is only 30 percent and shrinking of tenured and tenured track faculty members. So, I mean, that is absolute most important fact to know about higher education today, which is that the, what we would call the casualization of the faculty. And so, when you talk about faculty, you are talking about people who are living usually very desperate lives. Or else a lot of faculty, especially in more vocationally oriented programs, are people whose primary identification is as a practitioner in some other field than higher education. In other words, they are teaching part-time, but they are basically accountants who teach one course in accounting at a community college. They are counted as faculty, but they do not probably identify themselves as faculty. And that is very important. And so, when you are talking about core faculty members, that is not the main group now teaching in American universities. So, for traditional faculty members, how do they view the mission of the university? They are under enormous pressure, especially if they do not have tenure yet to produce, because it is such a competitive atmosphere. In my field, you cannot... At most schools now, you have to have a book. It is crazy. SM (03:17:53): Before you are even hired. Yeah. ES (03:17:56): In some cases, yeah. But at least for tenure, you need a book. And the pressure is for people now in literary studies, and Modern Language Association did a survey of tenure practices and claimed that people needed not just a book, but sufficient progress on a second book to get tenure. And so, the bar keeps rising. Same thing for scientists. They have to get grants. And it is increasingly more difficult to get grants than it used to be. In the good old days in the (19)60s, they threw money at people. Now, even very well-known scientists often cannot get their research funded. And so, the pressures are on people to get grants to work in areas that are going to be popular, that are going to be... And for scientists and engineers, often, these are fields in which there is more corporate influence, biomedical stuff, electronic things like that. SM (03:19:21): One of the questions I have asked everyone from day one when I interviewed Senator McCarthy, the late Senator McCarthy, and that is, do you feel that the boomer generation has an issue with healing like the civil war generation that went to his grave, not truly healed? I bring this question up because in 1995, I took a group of 14 students in our leadership on the road program to meet Senator Edmund Muskie. I knew Senator Nelson. And so, we were able... We met 14 former United States senators. And we were very lucky because Senator Muskie just gotten out of the hospital, actually died four months later. But he gave us two hours. And one of the questions the students came up with is, they were not alive in 1968, but they had seen the video and they wanted to know... They saw the divisions, the terrible divisions of America, assassinations, police and young people fighting each other, riots in the street, burnings and so forth. And they wanted to know if the generation, their parents' generation were going to go to their graves, not truly healed because of the tremendous divisions of the time. And they asked him this question. And is healing an issue in this generation? Do you feel that is an important issue when you teach the (19)60s? Because the Vietnam memorial was... The inscriber wrote, "To heal a nation," which was trying to heal the Vietnam veterans and their families. But I think he wanted to also try to heal the nation in some way through the wall that heals. ES (03:20:55): Yeah. It is an interesting question. It is not one I have looked at, mainly because when I teach the (19)60s, by the end of the semester, I am rushing through it. So, I never get to any final summing up and looking at that kind of issue. So, I am not really sure. Sometimes, certainly it is in the rhetoric of some of these people who are still blaming (19)60s radicals for anything that went wrong in the country. But I do not know whether, at a sort of grassroots level, it is still a large issue or not. I have a feeling that the economic issues that began to surface after (19)74 and the sort of transformation of the economy and the squeeze on the middle class has really... People are not thinking in terms of the (19)60s anymore. But I could be wrong. I do not know. SM (03:21:55): Yeah. Muskie answered in a way the students were not even expecting. He basically said that we have not healed since the Civil War over the issue of race. And he had just seen the Ken Burns series on TV, and he had come on in the hospital and he gave a lecture on all the 600,000 who had died in the Civil War. And almost an entire generation. He did not even mention the '60s. And here's a man who was the vice-presidential candidate in Chicago. Students looked at each other and were shocked, but that is where he was coming from. The issue of race has not healed. ES (03:22:27): No, it has not. SM (03:22:30): And I think I raised the question because when you go to the Gettysburg Battlefield, you will see a statue there. The last person alive who served in the war. And he died in 1924, something like that. And then when you go to the Vietnam Memorial, I interviewed Jan Scruggs. He thinks there are many that were anti-war that come to that wall with their kids and regret that they did not serve because it was the watershed event of the era. And those who may have been against the war would not change feelings. But many of the boomer generation had brought their families there and some of their kids that said, "Dad, what did you do in the war?" So that kind of... Would you say also the lack of trust is in an important quality within the boomer generation? They just were not a trusting generation. They all saw all these leaders lie to them. ES (03:23:20): Yeah. Well, sure. There was an enormous amount of hypocrisy and deceit. I think there always has been. Franklin Roosevelt lied. SM (03:23:34): Yeah. Eisenhower lied on you too. Sure. ES (03:23:37): I mean, Roosevelt essentially pushed the United States towards the Second World War. We supported that war. So, the fact that he was doing a lot of covert stuff, military stuff, we overlooked because it was the good war. But that is what politicians do. SM (03:24:00): Would you say this lack of trust though, is a positive quality? Because in political science 101 class, you are always taught that you need to challenge your government, never take anything for granted. And so, it is actually a good quality, not a bad quality. ES (03:24:13): I think so. But the problem is that it is very hard for people to get information. What we are seeing is a lot of government secrecy, an enormous amount of government secrecy. It is really increased exponentially. One of the things I am looking at in my current work. SM (03:24:35): And down to my final, actually, three questions. ES (03:24:38): Okay, because I am going to have to leave you. SM (03:24:39): Could you define the term counter culture in your own words? ES (03:24:45): Well, it is a very specific moment in American life in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, mainly of young people who are sort of sloughing off a kind of easy, materialistic set of values that had been fairly prevalent in American society. And seeking, through drugs and music, through communal living, through political activism, a whole kind of new... the word lifestyle, but that is really what we are talking about, a new set of values. SM (03:25:28): Could you define culture wars? ES (03:25:31): Oh yeah. That is something that... I ordinarily do not believe in conspiracies, but I have got this document from the early (19)70s that was written by the future Supreme Court Justice Lewis Powell, who was advising- SM (03:25:50): Oh yes. That was from the book. Yeah. ES (03:25:51): .... advising a friend in the Chamber of Commerce up there, how to deal with quote unquote " liberal academics" who were supposedly poisoning their students against the corporate sector. And what you see is a well-funded, very well-funded attack on whatever social movements and ideas came out of the (19)60s. SM (03:26:23): What are your thoughts on these two books? Because Clark Kerr's Uses of the University was a classic book, and he was about the free speech movement. And I think Ernie Boyers, The College and the Undergraduate Years is just a treasure. He was in the [inaudible], and I had a chance to meet him and briefly know him. Your thoughts on those two scholars and the meanings of their work? ES (03:26:49): Poor Clark Kerr, again, apparently during the free speech movement, and I have read his memoirs, I have been on programs with him and stuff. He is very evasive. He is a labor negotiator. He believes you get everybody together in a room and things will work out. And I think he was completely blindsided by how rigid the sort of conservative from the board, among the regents were, and how ideological the students were. Really just could not deal with it. He was an end of ideology person. SM (03:27:48): Oh, yeah. Daniel Bell, I interviewed him. I saw him before he died. ES (03:27:53): Yeah. And Boyer's stuff, I do not know as well. I mean, I know what stuff he did on the quote unquote "scholarship of teaching," and clearly, he wanted to emphasize research at the undergraduate level, which is part of this competitive trust within the American Academy. SM (03:28:21): Would you say that the best books that were written were the boomers at the period, late (19)60s, early (19)70s were books like The Culture of... Well, actually, Culture of Narcissism was the late (19)70s. The End of Ideology was Daniel Bell's book in the early (19)60s. And then you had Theodore Roszak’s book, the Making of a Counter Culture, and then you had The Greening of America by Charles Wright. Those are all major pieces to me in over a 20-year period of critique of the generation. And do you agree? Do you think they are all valid works? ES (03:29:05): I never read most of them. It only actually was interesting only when I got into doing this most recent book, did I read Bloom. SM (03:29:12): Oh, yes. ES (03:29:13): Which was the book. It was a bestseller. I owned it, but I have never read it. So, I read it and discovered all kinds of things in there. But a lot of these iconic books, I have a feeling, do not get read. SM (03:29:30): I interviewed Daniel Bell, who was not well, and of course he's passed away. And I was up at Harvard. It was a thunderstorm. And then there is this old house right near the Theological seminary up there. ES (03:29:42): Yeah, I know. SM (03:29:44): And I am in that area there. And his wife is upstairs, a machine keeping her alive, and he has got a maid working for him. And he is not well. But when I asked that question about Roszak and Wright. Garbage, garbage, they were not intellects. And then I said, "What did you think of Kenneth Keniston's Youth and Dissent?" That was a good book. So, it was interesting in talking... Who were the most influential scholars, presidents, teachers who shaped the university during the time that boomers were, or any time after World War II? ES (03:30:26): Yeah. Oh, Marcuse, obviously. And then I think, and I am not sure I could even name them all, it is the people who began doing stuff or in Vietnam who began looking at American foreign policy. SM (03:30:48): Chomsky? Yeah. ES (03:30:50): Yeah, but I was doing history, so I am sort of thinking of the revisionist scholars. SM (03:30:59): Oh yeah. ES (03:30:59): I am thinking of people, Herb Gutman, and people who were doing social history, very important in my field. EP Thompson, the British historian, was crucial. Looking at working class history. It may be different in different fields, I am thinking, not just in terms of the general culture, but in terms of the intellectual history of specific fields. SM (03:31:32): And this is kind of a two-part question. Who were the winners in the (19)60s and (19)70s in higher ed or even in society? And who were the losers? And secondly, who were the heroes of the boomers? Were there winners and losers in the (19)60s and (19)70s? ES (03:31:48): I was going to say that is not the kind of a question that I would have asked or that I think I can give an answer to. Who were the losers? Lyndon Johnson? Richard Nixon? But I do not know that anybody won. SM (03:32:10): And the heroes? ES (03:32:13): Oh, people like King, obviously. Bob Moses or Smith, Mario Savio. I think to a certain extent, Bobby Kennedy, who was a very charismatic figure. I mean, what always struck me about Bobby Kennedy was how much he was able to change. SM (03:32:43): Well, yeah, he was... ES (03:32:45): From this sort of tough guy enforcer in his early career to somebody who really was reaching out. Fannie Lou Hamer. It is sort of the same pantheon of figures, mainly in the civil rights movement, which I think, at least for me, was really just so exemplary in so many ways. SM (03:33:17): I do have one more question and that is, did the boomers become the most unique generation in history? Did they change the world for the better as they said they were going to do when they were young? And I know that I actually met with some of my former peers at my undergraduate school, and they still feel the way they did back in the (19)60s. They feel that the generation did a lot to make the world better. But look at the word we are living in. So, just your thoughts. And the boomer generation is still, they are 65 at the oldest now, and they're going into all senior citizens, period. So, they still got- ES (03:33:57): They are still out there. SM (03:33:58): Yeah, they are still out there. But for the first 65 years, what can you say about them? ES (03:34:03): Well... SM (03:34:05): Did they change the world for the better overall? ES (03:34:08): George W. Bush did not. I think it is mixed. Very mixed. SM (03:34:15): Yeah. I know that the only two boomer presidents have been Clinton and Bush, but actually Obama was a boomer, but he was only two. ES (03:34:25): Yeah. SM (03:34:25): Finally, the last thing, I am done, but I wanted to read this and if you had any comment, just comment. ES (03:34:31): Okay. SM (03:34:31): And finally, we know only about 5 percent of the 17 million became activists in the (19)60s and (19)70s. Some use the statistic that most young people were not active or linked to causes as a negative. However, this still adds up to many millions. And my question is this, for those who were active, whether be conservatives or liberals, do you feel they were very different in a positive way with respect to caring about equality, justice, freedom of speech, respect for differences, wanting to make the world a better place to live? Or was it all about, as some of their critics say, a generation that was selfish, not selfless. They avoided the draft in any way possible. Plus wanted instant satisfaction via demands due to their being brought up in the (19)50s as spoiled kids who were given everything by their depression era parents. This applies to white middle class students, but also eventually to the African American students and students who lived in poverty because they were also making demands, but for different reasons. ES (03:35:52): Well, you know what? My answer would be that clearly these people, there were real social problems. There were real... The Vietnam War was a major problem, and people were motivated to take action for very idealistic reasons. It did not turn out well in every case, but I do not think these people are self-interested. It is a mixture because people, they are human. SM (03:36:20): Was there any question I did not ask you, you thought I was going to? ES (03:36:22): No, that was very good. SM (03:36:23): Great. Any final comments? ES (03:36:23): Nope. Thank you very much. SM (03:36:23): We can [inaudible] more pictures. ES (03:36:23): Okay. SM (03:36:30): And then if you could sign three books too. ES (03:36:31): Okay. SM (03:36:31): This one's all marked up. ES (03:36:35): Okay. I will be right back. SM (03:36:37): Okay. ES (03:36:37): Okay. Tomorrow I will be... SM (03:36:37): Do you want me to go ahead? ES (03:36:37): Yeah [inaudible]. SM (03:36:44): [inaudible] Okay. I will do that. (End of Interview) Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Ellen Schrecker Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Ellen Schrecker is a scholar, professor emerita of American History at Yeshiva University and has received a fellowship at the Tamiment library in NYU. In addition, she is considered a leading expert on McCarthyism and has taught at various prestigious universities including Princeton, New York University, and Columbia."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":4483,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Ellen Schrecker is a scholar, professor emerita of American History at Yeshiva University and has received a fellowship at the Tamiment library in NYU. In addition, she is considered a leading expert on McCarthyism and has taught at various prestigious universities including Princeton, New York University, and Columbia.</span> Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schrecker, Ellen ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; United States—History—1945-1953; Tamiment Library; Yeshiva University; Schrecker, Ellen--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-05-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.111a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.111b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 217:19 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/50d57ba724c64aab841b52fca987947d.jpg bd997ce0cb431443036ad9ded3e318d2 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ea3ea668ec2822981541b3f6c412f571.mp3 3bbf83287b3665e4961ae7933563b5f8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview (2009-07-25)(2009-08-12) Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Pete Seeger, 1919-2014 Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Pete Seeger (May 3, 1919 - January 27, 2014) was a folk singer and a social activist. In addition, to being a folk singer he also wrote his own songs as he performed them to people. He wrote songs throughout the different time periods of history. For example, he recorded an album in '78 called \"Songs of the Lincoln Battalion\" with Tom Glazer, Bess Lomax, and Baldwin Hawes."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Pete Seeger (May 3, 1919 - January 27, 2014) was a folk singer and a social activist. In addition, to being a folk singer he also wrote his own songs as he performed them to people. He wrote songs throughout the different time periods of history. For example, he recorded a 78 RPM album called <em>Songs of the Lincoln Battalion</em> with Tom Glazer, Bess Lomax, and Baldwin Hawes.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 80:25 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Rolf in the Woods: The Adventures of a Boy Scout with Indian Quonab and Little Dog Skookum (Book); Ernest Thompson Seton; Theodore Roosevelt; Eugene V. Debs; American Student Union; Woodstock; The Great Depression; Jackson State; Kent State; Songs; Voting Rights Act of 1965."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":{"1":2,"2":16370588},"12":0}">Rolf in the Woods: The Adventures of a Boy Scout with Indian Quonab and Little Dog Skookum (Book); Ernest Thompson Seton; Theodore Roosevelt; Eugene V. Debs; American Student Union; Woodstock; The Great Depression; Jackson State; Kent State; Songs; Voting Rights Act of 1965.</span> Subject LCSH Folk singers; Human rights workers; Seeger, Pete, 1919-2014--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Pete Seeger Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Kashawn Hernandez Date of interview: 25 July 2009; 8 December 2009 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:04 PS: The whole chapter will be off the press in November. 00:10 SM: Very good. And who, who is printing it? What company? 00:13 PS: WW Norton Company. Good company. 00:17 SM: Yep. 00:19 PS: And we will go to actually go to press in a few weeks. And I hope to get an advanced copy sometime in September, October. 00:33 SM: Super. And it will be hard back too? 00:38 PS: Both. Oh, I think hardback. Like, I do not know for sure. 00:44 SM: All right I guess ̶ 00:46 PS: $25. $24.95 00:51 SM: All right. 00:52 PS: Okay. All right. 00:52 SM: Ready? 00:53 PS: Remind me what your name is? 00:55 SM: My name is Steve McKiernan. I booked; I know Peggy. Peggy came to our college at Westchester University and performed and then I interviewed Peggy over the phone. Peggy is the one that called you right away and said, you need to talk to Steve and then I called you and then I sent you the questions and everything. And this book is basically a book on the boomers but it is also a lot of the things that you were involved in (19)60s and (19)50s/(19)60s and (19)70s. So, I am looking at the boomers from different aspects and getting people's opinions. First question I want to ask is, when did you think the (19)60s began? What was it, what do you think was the watershed moment from the (19)60s? 01:44 PS: I would say in the (19)50s there were extraordinary things happening, the civil rights movement ̶ started in colleges throughout the north. There were people who went down to help, there were white students who went down to help Dr. King. Freedom summer was officially 1964. But before that they were going down there to help out. And, my guess is Woodstock made a big, big change because people who did not go to Woodstock saw the movie Woodstock, right? And I tell people, the most popular song in America was "123 What Are We Fighting For?" The (19)60s were over then. It was 1970 when the movie was out, but (19)69 was Woodstock. There were things before this, like the Newport Folk Festival. The Clearwater started in (19)69. See what could be the (19)60s, offhand, I just cannot think. 03:25 SM: Do you think there was one event? When you look at the boomers ̶ they were the people born between 1946 and 1964. What do you think in their eyes was the most important event that happened in their lives ̶ that may have shaped them the most? 03:42 PS: Well, I do not know. I cannot think of any one thing. It is a lot of little things. Because this is me ̶ I started singing in colleges in 1953. Up till that time I sang at little left-wing camps and an occasional lefty hotel or some place called Music Inn up in the Berkshires. At concerts I gave or in the Boss Circuit, that would be a place I would sing, so I do not think if any one thing. For some it might been a festival, who knows. But it could have been lots of little things. 05:05 SM: Lots of little things, not a little thing, not one specific thing. How do you feel when you hear people like George Will or Newt Gingrich or individuals, look at the boomer generation, blame all the problems of American society on this group of people, that they love them say that the breakup the American family, the drugs, that values went down? How do you feel when you hear those people say those things about that time? 05:39 PS: The poor people do not know what they are talking about. There is a drug problem, incidentally, did you ever hear of Kurt Vonnegut? 05:54 SM: Oh yeah. 05:54 PS: Statement about says, if people ask me, what do you think America's greatest cultural contribution to the world has been many would say jazz. I love jazz, jazz is good, but I would say Alcoholics Anonymous. It showed a way to help people who are alcoholics without having to spend a lot of money. They just get together and they admit, they have all got a problem. And they talk over their problem with each other and said, with God's help, we are going to kick this habit. It was a truly great cultural invention. 06:45 SM: So those individuals that do kind of do broad based attacks on a group of people, you think they were way out left field? 06:54 PS: You know, people who think that passing a law against it is the way to solve a problem. They just they did not take learn from prohibition ̶ prohibition just created a whole lot of gangsters who made a lot of money out of prohibition and people could get drunk by paying money to the right gangster. 07:17 SM: When you performed in the say in the (19)60s and through the middle (19)70s and you saw these students, well, and nonstudents who were in the in your audience and then of course, a lot has been written on them since. What do you think of the strength of that group of young people? Because you have been performing for young people since the (19)40s and (19)50s. And, but when you are getting specifically into those people that were born after World War II, raised by parents, oftentimes people that fought in the war and went through the depression and tried to give their kids as much as they could that they did not have, what would you say would be the strengths and the weaknesses of that generation? 08:06 PS: These are interesting questions. I think it is the interesting thing that it was a middle-class movement in many ways. These were not ignorant sharecroppers who had not barely gone through the third grade in school. These were ̶ they had the good education. And they could see the hypocrisy of the ruling class. Maybe I could be looking at my own experience. I came from a family of teachers. My grandfather was a small businessman and a Republican from old New England. My grandmother was a, his wife, was a member of the Mayflower. But as a child, I read the books of Ernest Thompson Seaton, he wrote about American Indians. I do not know if you ever heard of heard of Seaton. He wrote, he was sold widely to teenagers in the first two and a half decades. His first best seller was in the 1890s. I read a book called Ralph in the Woods when I was eight years old. It was written for twelve or thirteen years old, but I was eight. I was a good reader. And that is the story of a thirteen-year-old being beaten by a stepfather and he runs off into the woods. This is the year 1810. And there has a wigwam in the woods of Indian, whose tribe had been massacred. His wife had been sold into slavery. And he is living in this wigwam trapping a few animals and exchanging their skins for a few things at the corner store that he needs. Ralph says, Can I stay with you overnight, my stepfather is going to beat me. And the Indian says, Sure roll up in the corner. In the morning, the stepfather arrives. Oh, you will with Indian, I am going to get my gun. Now that both are in trouble, they flee up the Hudson Valley to the Adirondacks and work for a local Dutch farmer. Worked for local Dutch farmer for a month and earned enough money to buy some traps and other tools they need. Now they hit into Adirondacks and build a cabin. And the next few years, every chapter of the book is another nature lesson. Some of them are funny when the dog meets a porcupine. Some of them are almost tragic. Ralph, the boy fit now a fourteen-year-old or fifteen. He sees two male deer with an Atlas hook that cannot escape, and one of them is dead and the other trying to free himself but he cannot get free and Ralph goes up and frees the live deer but now the live deer is crazy and he charges Ralph and pins roll to the ground. You know Ralph is going to be ̶ the dog is well known about dogs can sense things from afar they no one knows how they do it. You know, they make a long trip and they know which direction to go and so, and the dog whines the Indian says when something has gone wrong lead me to the dog leads the Indian to where Ralph is. And the Indian shoots the deer and saves Ralph's life. Another chapter is a French Canadian in the neighboring valley is trapped by his own bear trap and cannot get out. But they free him and the French Canadian in broken English says, I will never forget you if you ever need help, call on me. Now. The next year is the war of 1812 is broken out and they are hired by the US Army to be scouts and the carry messages from east to west along the frontier. Once Ralph is running through the woods alone, and he suddenly hears a cry, “Halt.” And there is a gun pointed at him, and that is a French-Canadian soldier and it is the trapper. And he says, "Run Ralph I will shoot over your head" so well friends, the man shoots over his head, and Ralph gets away. It is an exciting novel. I got into every one of Seaton's books. I read that [Cross, Gracit and Dunlap] sold for $8 some seven books. And I persuaded my parents to invest let me buy all eight of them seven, "[Lives regrets], Lives of the Hunted. Seaton did not die till his (19)80s in the 1950s in Santa Fe, New Mexico. He had gone down there to capture [Logo] the wolf. I got into the big criticism that the American Indian has of whites was our hypocrisy. 14:27 SM: Do you think that some people say the very same thing about the boomer generation, that they are hypocrites, they felt they could change the world when they were young, they protest against, or 15% of them did. And then they have gone on to become materialistic and make a lot of money. Do you think that is true? 14:45 PS: Well, some of them did give up. I do not think that was a very wrong criticism though. They were basically protesting the hypocrisy of the ruling class. Incidentally when you speak the ruling class. Marx gave it that term. But did you ever hear of president Rutherford Hayes? 15:08 SM: Oh yeah, he was a nineteenth. President 1877. Yeah, well ̶ PS: 15:11 He was a very honest president. He only agreed to run for four years because he loved his family and did not want to subject them to that pressure for more than four years. After he was president, he liked to make speeches. He had jumped into this new invention called a railroad to go somewhere and give a speech. And in 1888, the Supreme Court handed down a famous decision ̶ there was no capital punishment for corporations. Up till that time, the state could handle it charter to a corporation. And if they did not like what the corporation was doing, they could take it away. But now, after 1888 the Supreme Court said that you can fine a cooperation if they do something wrong, but you cannot take away their corporate status. Rutherford Hayes, says face it, we no longer have a government of the people by the people for the people- we have a government of corporations by corporations, corporations and in 1891 when he met Cornelius Vanderbilt, he said we have a government of the rich by the rich for the rich. Now this was rarely said by the ruling class person, it was said by farmers or workers and squatter Eugene Debs said when he started the Socialist Party, but this is being said by people at the top. Theodore Roosevelt said it in 1906. I think I keep in my pocket pictures - this is Theodore Roosevelt. 15:43 SM: Could you read it to me? Or you want me to - 17:11 PS: "Behind the ostensible government of our country there exists a secret government not beholden to the people. To destroy this secret government, it should be the chief task of responsible statesmanship to destroy the link between corrupt business and corrupt politics. 17:40 SM: That is a beautiful quote. 17:44 PS: Well, the unholy alliance, the first task statesman, of course Franklin Roosevelt said something similar. He said, we have running the country, economic royalists. He said that in the 1930s. 18:01 SM: So, a lot of the things that the boomers were doing on college campuses in the (19)60s and challenging, again, we were talking 15 percent of people that were that age ̶ they were challenged in the universities and because they were becoming too linked to the corporations. 18:21 PS: In 1955, I was sixteen years old. And my mother drove me to Connecticut where she was teaching violin to a Jewish family. And the teenagers were studying violin. And over supper, they were asking what I was going to do with my life. I was sixteen. I said, I am going to be a hermit. That is the only way to be an honest person in this hypocritical world. I will have little to do with the world as possible. And they jumped on me ̶ if that is your idea of morality, you are going to be nice and pure yourself and let the rest of the world go to hell. And they posed my New England Thoreaulite way of thinking to their traditional Jewish sense of social content, social consciousness. And I decided they were right. So, I started getting more involved. And I, when I went to college, a year later, I got involved in student, what do you call it, the student, oh, my memories, the Harvard Student Union, the American Student Union, was the name of the organization. Actually, they had their annual meeting at Vassar because there was a liberal president at Vassar. And then I was editing the little monthly magazine for the Harvard Student Union, called the Harvard Progressive. And I did not pay attention to my marks, the high marks slipped and I lost my scholarship. So, I had to leave. I did not have enough money to go to Harvard if I did not have a scholarship. I also worked; my brothers’ help pay a third of that money. And I worked for a third of the money and the scholarship took care of a third of the money. But I was also disgusted with what I felt was the hypocrisy of some of the professors. Professor Sorokin was a social democrat. He was a friend of the guy that the Bolsheviks kicked out in Russia. And he said, do not think you can change the world. What you can do is study it. And that was trying to persuade us not to try and do some changes ̶ 21:21 SM: Do you think that may have been happening in the (19)60s and (19)70s? What college students today, you know, do not you know, do not make waves just study it ̶ 21:31 PS: And I decided I did not want to bother going to college, if that was the kind of people teaching here. Now, the people like Howard Zinn, Noam Chomsky, are the exception that proves the rule that the average teacher will tell you, you do not want to get thrown in jail, study it, and when you learn a lot, then you can do something and get in a position of importance, and you can do something. 21:56 SM: What is it about your music ̶ and I read your books. Your music is something that your dad taught you when you were young, that music was supposed to have a social content, that it was supposed to have meaning and the most important thing is writing music. It is not really the performance, but it is remembering the words. So, the impact will be lasting in the lifetime of a young person as they grow older and sharing it with their young people. What is it about your music that is so important to the boomer generation because it is, you really, you have had a lot of impact your words, in your music? 22:38 PS: I try not to lose a sense of humor. But occasionally in every program, I do something deadly serious. "Walking down death row, I sang for three men destined for the chair. Walking down death row, I sang of lives and loves in other years. Walking down death row, I sang of hopes that used to be. Through the bars, into each separate cell, Yes, I sang to one and two and three. If you had only stuck together you would not be sitting here! If you could have loved each other's lives, you'd not be sitting here! And if only this you could believe, you might still, you might still be reprieved. Walking down death row, I turned the corner and found to my surprise; there were women there as well, with babies in their arms, before my eyes. Walking down death row, I tried once more to sing of hopes that used to be. But the thought of that contraption, down the hall, waiting for whole families, one dozen, two or three, if you had only stuck together, you would not be here! If you could have loved another child as well as your own, you would not be sitting here! And if only this you could believe, you might still, you might still be reprieved." The last verse. “Walking down death row, I concentrated, singing to the young. I sang of hopes that flickered still, I tried to mouth their many separate tongues. Walking down death row, I sang of hopes that still might be singing, singing sing in down death row to each separate human cell, one billion, two, or three, if we would only stick together, we would not be here! If we do not really stick together, we would not be here. If we could learn to love each other's lives, we would not be sitting here! And if only this we could believe, we still might, we still might be reprieved." 25:11 SM: Okay, hold on one second. Are you excited about the anniversary of Woodstock? 25:23 PS: Not particularly. Not in favor of big things. I think the world will be saved by small things. 25:36 SM: You know, before we start, I went into Barnes and Noble bookstore. That is the place where I bought your books. And I noticed that Mr. Dunaway, his book, the paperback book, also the book the Protest Singer, which I have read them both ̶ now I have read both of them, I have underlined them. And then a book that had the CD in it with our music. It was, I forget the name of the guy who wrote it. It was up ̶ 26:12 PS: Yeah, orange cover. 26:16 SM: Yeah, so the great things, and then of course your CDs are very strong at Barnes and Noble and I bought the one when I spoke to you briefly down at Beacon New York ̶ you had recommended that CD of all your music, I think it was about thirty songs and I have that too. So, but what is interesting before we start the interview, I went into the bookstore yesterday and I was kind of shocked. They have had a couple books out on Woodstock, and I know that, but you know, two or three hardbacks, but they got a whole table full of items. It has become such a commercial event. It is sometimes sickening. 27:00 PS: Yes. 27:03 SM: All right, you are ready for some questions? 27:05 PS: I was going to ask you if you did not have fun in the bookstore. The book I wrote years ago, I guess cool. Everybody says Freedom was not there. 27:16 SM: That was not there. And I think you mentioned ̶ 27:19 PS: What about the storytelling book? 27:21 SM: Oh, I have that too. Yes. But I brought that with me, but I forgot to have you sign it. That is a very good book. 27:31 PS: You should know that WW. Norton will have out in November, a book called Where Have all the Flowers Gone? And the first edition came out fifteen years ago, sixteen years ago but it was so full of mistakes I told the [saying out], do not reprint it, do not reprint it. It took me thirteen years to get the job done. It finally went to press and now has a new publisher rather, co-publisher and called Where Have All the Flowers Gone: A Musical Autobiography. 28:18 SM: Very nice. Well what that will come out in November? 28:23 PS: Yes. 28:24 SM: I will definitely have to get a copy and send it to you, and have it signed. 28:30 PS: Okay. 28:32 SM: All right. Well, here is my first question. When you think of the boomer generation now that is the young people born after the war ̶ and the people that actually came to a lot of your concerts in the (19)60s and (19)70s. What does the (19)60s and the youth of the (19)70s mean to you? 28:53 PS: Well, it was a significant breakthrough in the control of the country by the powers who have the money. Probably know that not just lefties but both sorts of quite well-known respectable people knew that shortly after the Civil War, corporations and business controlled the country and controlled the media, newspapers and so on. It is true that there were opposition from those who were aware of this, but they were small and weak. I mean you have the farmers movement and the union movement of the late nineteenth century and you had the socialist movement and the communist movement. 99 percent of the people got their news from the newspapers and places like the radio and TV. And the exceptions were rare. Well for example, songs that were on the radio during the 1930s during the Depression were all love song. And there was never a song which even mentioned the idea there was a depression on. Herbert Hoover said to Rudy Vallee a popular singer, Mr. Vallee, if you can sing a song that will make the American people forget the depression, I will give you a medal. The exception proves the rule. On Broadway, there was a very popular musical show. And the hit song of the show was called "Brother Can you Spare a Dime." Because in the show there was a breadline and the guy say he spent my life building the country. Now, I am out of a job. Brother, buddy, can you spare a dime? Did you ever hear the song? 31:20 SM: Oh, yes. 31:22 PS: Then you know it, it is a famous song. The exception to the rule. The rule was a Bing Crosby's song “Wrap Your Troubles in Dreams (And Dream Your Troubles Away)". I knew because [I was in my period], so I played in this cool jazz band and it was one stupid song after another ̶ well we were clever and sometimes had a good tune. But it was all forget your troubles. You cannot do anything about your trouble so anything you can do is forget. So, let me give you a sample of the opposite opinion. I always thought that Rutherford B. Hayes, who was president after General Grant was the worst president we ever had because he withdrew federal troops from the South. That was the end of reconstruction. Up until then, blacks, ex-slaves had been able to vote, and they sent several people to Congress, one became a senator, iron rebels. After troops were withdrawn from the south, the Ku Klux Klan took over the south. Rutherford B Hayes actually was not a bad president because he was forced into this. The deal was made behind his back. But he was a very honest president. And after he only told Republicans he only be willing to run a one term. He loved his wife and family. And this one is subject to that pressure for more than four years. Well, eight years after he was president, the Supreme Court handed down a decision saying there was no capital punishment for corporations. Before that states could hand out a charter to a corporation. And if they did not like what they were doing, they can take it away or not after 1888 find a corporation if they do something illegal, but you could not take away their charter. And Hayes says, face it. We no longer have a government, of the people by the people for the people. As Lincoln said in the Gettysburg Address, we have a government of corporations by corporations. for corporations. Way back then he said it. Then President Theodore Roosevelt said in 1906 ̶ behind the ostensible government of our country with there is a secret government, which shows no allegiance to the people; to destroy this secret government should be the chief task of responsible statesmanship. And he has, you know, tried with the antitrust laws and the income tax. But then he was voted out. Woodrow Wilson came in however, Woodrow Wilson before he left office said, I am filled with unhappiness. So, let me read you exactly what he said about it. Here is Woodrow Wilson around 1989, I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. The great industrial nation is controlled by a system of credit or a system of credit is concentrated the growth of the nation Therefore, all our activities are in the hands of the few men. We have come to be one of the worst rules, one of the most completely controlled and dominated government in the civilized world. No longer government, by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction, the vote of the majority, but a government of the government by the opinion and duress of a small group, of dominant men which under administration the Federal Reserve was created. So, and you know, probably Franklin Roosevelt said we have economic royalists in our country. In other words, not just the lefties said we should get rid of the rich people. Some rich people are extraordinary. You know, George Soros is one and John D. Rockefeller, Jr. ended up giving away most money, which is probably less. 36:41 SM: So, when you look at the ̶ comparing this history and you mentioned Rutherford B. Hayes, at least he had the integrity to serve one term, even though he may not have been the greatest president in the world. But when you look at the leaders that were in charge of our government when the boomers were young, and continuing through today, you are looking at people like Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and obviously, Bush again. These are the people that have ̶ when you look at the leaders that the boomers have had lived through, what are your thoughts on them? 37:23 PS: Well, life is compromises. And maybe one of the things you learn about politics is the compromises necessary. One of the mistakes often people think, oh, we just get rid of those rich people, and everything will be hunky dory, and they have not learned how to compromise. I think one of the most important things about, if you read the book about Lincoln called Team of Rivals ̶ 38:01 SM: Yes, I have Doris Kearns Goodwin, 38:03 PS: A very, very important book. And I rather suspect that Barack Obama has read it too, 38:11 SM: Yes, he has. 38:14 PS: But the boomers made the mistake of thinking, we will get the young people in charge and everything will be hunky dory. I remember arguing with Jerry Rubin. You got to work with the old people as well as the young people. That is one of the lessons in the civil rights movement. Yes, the middle age people, people in their (19)30s and forty were cautious. But their kids and their grandparents were the ones who carried through Dr. King's great change. Civil Rights, evolution if you want to call it, a peaceful revolution. My own life, my own way of thinking was turned around by King. My best song has been written about him, my best new song. Have you heard, "Take it From Dr. King"? 39:12 SM: I do not believe I have. 39:14 PS: I wrote it right after the Twin Towers were bombed. 39:18 PS: No, I have not. 39:23 SM: It is the last chapter in my new book, “Take it from Dr. King”. And so, I argue with young people who think that world change is going to be done by one group, if I think it was the mistake of Marx, thinking that the working class would be the only group that would make change. I think there was a collective thought back then, and I think some of the boomers still have it even as they approach old age, because they are leaving middle age of the early boomers, and that is that they were the most unique generation in American history, that they were going to change the world bring peace, love, end conflict. And you know, and create kind of a new world order, which I do not know really has happened. But that is, your thoughts on that attitude that used to be very prevalent in the 1960s and some of them still have it today as they are approaching, as they reach sixty. 40:40 PS: Oh, yes, I get letters from people in their (19)60s thanking me for coming in and singing at their college back in the 1950s. I went from college to college to college during the late 1950s. I started in Oberlin in 1953. Went to Antioch but by 1958/ (19)59, I was going to all sorts of certain colleges and by 1960, I was going to the state universities. And it was the most important job I ever did in my life. I could have kicked the bucket in 1961. And my job was done. A raft of young songwriters came along, who could sing better than I did and make up better songs. They took over people like Bob Dylan and Bill Oaks and Buffy St. Marie and Joni Mitchell. And now there is not dozens of them. They are literally hundreds if not thousands. 41:51 SM: When you look at the ̶ explain a little bit more what it was like going to college campuses in the 1960s. I recently saw on television and I think you may remember that you went to Great Valley High School near outside Philadelphia. Do you remember that? 42:12 PS: No, I do not. 42:12 SM: Well, it was, it actually was on there ̶ it was quite a few years ago and they had it on their little TV station of your visit there once. What was it your feeling of going from campus to campus in the 1960s and even into the 1970s. Did you feel ̶ 42:35 PS: I really delighted in it even though occasionally there were a bomb threat and but I'd sing a song and there would be a loud boom in the middle of the song because I said something they disagreed with and then the guy who made a boo was thunderstruck because at the end of the song, it was a thunder of loud cheers and the guy who booed said what is happening to our country with traitorous pops like that are, actually, given [out] from the stage. 43:13 SM: Is there any way ̶ you mentioned that you have done thousands of concerts. But obviously there may have been one or two that stood out. Is there one or two concerts that you did on a college campus that stood out and what year was that? 43:34 PS: I told you, my voice started to give out. I wanted to have a concert where the audience could be heard so I had it especially miced with microphones over the audience. And if you go to Smithsonian Folkways Records, ask for a CD called Sing Along. It was made at Harvard College. Harvard had a medium sized auditorium with thousand seats, a nineteenth century wooden auditorium, Sanders Theater. Had wonderful acoustics. I had microphones placed all through the audience. So, my microphone might be tuned up during the first when I was singing the first but when it came to the chorus, they tuned me down and tuned up one from the audience around we did when we mastered it, right. We had sixteen microphones. Get that record and I will and show you what I did back then. 44:51 SM: When you ̶ when did the (19)60s begin in your opinion and when did it end? 44:59 PS: Oh, I do not know it depends on your definition of the (19)60s, would not be fine. What happened at Oberlin ̶ some kids I have talked to in high school or grade school in Manhattan now they are in Oberlin, and they wrote me a letter that we have got the Oberlin folk song club, and we have got the basement of the art school such and such a night. Can you take a bus out here, we will pass the hat, and I am sure we will make the bus fare and we did? We got about $200 a little over two-hundred people. Well, the next year I went back to Oberlin and sang for five hundred in a chapel. And the next year I came back and sang for thousand, in the large auditorium, which took the whole college could get to and I used to go back there every year until I got too busy and could only go back there occasionally. 46:05 SM: What were the qualities you most admired in the young people of the world? They grew up in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s. And how are they different than any of the other youth of the other eras that you performed in? 46:22 PS: Well, they joined in. So, I did well. They stood up to the - they stood up to the authorities if they tried [yes]. Allegheny college ̶ I sang there once, and the students want me to come back. 46:54 SM: Oh, wow. 46:55 PS: They tried to stop it ̶ he said, I am trying to raise money for this college. Seeger coming here makes it very difficult for me to raise money. So, I suggest that you not have Seeger come back. And the students put up a big fight, they said it was academic freedom. What do you mean that we cannot have him come back? We want him to come back. And finally, the president of the college had to back down. And he said, the alumni I am sorry, it is academic freedom. I could not stop them. I tried. 47:33 SM: What year was that? 47:35 PS: That was around 1958. 47:38 SM: Oh, my gosh. I you know, that still continues today in higher education. Oh, my God. 47:47 PS: Goes on all the time. President Gideon, Brooklyn College said that I would not sing on the campus as long as he was president. And I did not. When he finally retired in 1965. I went to sing on the campus, the very next year (19)66. 48:09 SM: If there is one event that you feel personally ̶ now you are ninety years old and I really admire you for your longevity and your continuation of giving back and influencing young people to do good. And the question ̶ which is, you know, sometimes so many young people are afraid of that to do that or to do that for there might be a price one has to pay. But who, what if there is a specific event that happened in the (19)60s in the (19)70s, or even when ̶ what had the greatest effect on the boomer generation, what do you think that might be? 48:51 PS: It might be the fact that I did not get on TV. I broke the blacklist one or two times when I had written this song called Waist Deep in the Big Muddy ̶ getting out of Vietnam. The song did not mention Vietnam. It did not mention president Johnson by name, but everybody knew what I was singing about. I told in the allegory– “It was back in 1942, I was a member of the good platoon. We were on maneuvers in Louisiana. One night by the light of the moon. The captain told us to ford the river. That was how it all began. We were knee deep in the Big Muddy, But the big fool said to push on. The song went on until the captain is drowned. Well, I am not going to point any moral, I will leave that for yourself. Maybe you are still walking, you are still talking You would like to keep your health. But every time I read the papers, that old feeling comes on; we were waist deep in the Big Muddy and the big fool says to push on.” It was censured out of the show. And I was on the Smothers Brothers program. They took their complaint to the to the press, paper printed media. The CBS is censuring up the best jokes and censuring Seegar's best song and finally after three months CBS said it okay you sing it and this time, I sang it for seven million people. 50:43 SM: I saw that, I watched the Smothers Brothers and what was your thought on not just what they did toward you in on television but what they were trying to do to the Smothers Brothers, the show. 50:58 PS: Well I think what they learned and what I learned is you do not have to reach millions of people if you could reach some. And I am completely convinced that if there is a human race here in hundred years, it will be because of millions of comparatively small things. I really mean this. You know, the great praise the great Du Bois, the biologist, said think globally, act locally. You have heard that yes. And Schumacher said small is beautiful. Margaret Mead said never doubt that a few committed individuals can save the world and the fact that the only thing that ever has. Who knows, I say God only knows but I put it this way. This is my mantra. The agricultural revolution took thousands of years - the industrial revolution took of hundreds of years. The information revolution is only taking decades. Use it, use the brains God gave us. Who knows, what miracles may happen in the next few years. 52:21 SM: Very good point that two different words I want to say, the word healing and the word trust are often linked to the boomer generation, the era of the seventy-four million that were born after (19)46 up to (19)64 - issues of trust because the lack of trust in the leaders that they saw lie to them in many respects and number two, healing because of all the unbelievable divisions that were in America back in the in the (19)60s ̶ some people said that we might even have another second Civil War. Your thoughts on the influence this may have had on this entire generation and how do you think they are dealing with it today? 53:10 PS: [This man you are talking about thing?] 53:12 SM: No, I am talking about the boomer generation, the whole issues of trust and healing within this group because of the ̶ 53:20 PS: My own feeling is that often radicals are overconfident that they that they know all the answers, whether they are anarchists or socialists or communists or whatever they call themselves. And I think the big mistake in the in the communist movement was mistaking Lenin. He said, in 1905, we lost the revolution of 1905 because we were not disciplined. If we are disciplined, just like an army is disciplined we will win the next revolution, and it is true, they took power in 1917. But they believed in discipline. I often quote, a German communist Rosa Luxemburg, who said, wrote a letter: Dear Comrade Lenin, I read that you have censorship of the press, and you restrict the right of people to freely meet and discuss their opinions. Do not you realize that in a few years, all the decisions in your country will be made by a few elites? The masses will only be called in to dutifully applaud your decision. And I think if it had not been Stalin, it would have been somebody else. But the thing which has saved our country, generation after generation is that extraordinary first amendment constitution. 55:00 SM: The presidents that had the greatest influence on the boomer generation are John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, and probably Ronald Reagan. How would you ̶ what are your thoughts on them? 55:14 PS: Well, of course, they are very different. But all of them made compromises. As I say, sometimes the compromise worked. Sometimes they did not. I think probably president, ex-President Carter probably regret some of the compromises that he made. 55:42 SM: Okay, final part of the interview is just basically responding to a couple terms, words. You do not have to give very long responses, but just your overall gut level feeling when you hear these words or terms. Watergate. 56:02 PS: You make a compromise you can regret. 56:07 SM: Kent State and Jackson State. 56:13 PS: I am increasingly convinced that the world will not survive unless we learn from Dr. King. 56:27 SM: Go in greater detail there. 56:30 PS: Well, way back at the beginning ̶ he said various times in his life, the most important speech he ever made was the speech he made at the very beginning of the bus boycott. He said, we will win this boycott if we are nonviolent. Non-violence is it is ascending spiral, with violence you can murder the hater, you just increase hate. Darkness cannot drive out darkness, it takes light to do that. Hate cannot drive out hate, it takes love and I think I would say respect. 57:16 SM: So basically, Kent state was the result of certainly a lack of communication, Jackson State too with the loss of student lives. But what was those were monumental events for that particular era because you saw violence. A couple of other things, the Vietnam Memorial, what does that mean to you? 57:39 PS: For violence, you might consider this, according to anthropologist and I think they right, all of us are descended from good killers. The ones who were not good killers did not have the descendants. This was for hundreds of thousands of years. And then in more recent times, we learn how to use words, we use learn how to use the arts. I compare a song to a basketball backboard, and it bounces back new meanings when life bounces new experiences against it. So, the song John Henry might have simply been about a strong man. Later I realized there is a tragedy to it, even humor to it at times. And so, a song can mean different things at different times. And the arts, all of them are important including the art of cooking. And Tommy Sands, the great Irish singer brought back Ireland together by song fest when he was a child. You should read his book. Tommy Sands, S-A-N-D-S. The book is called Song Maker. Came out about five years ago, four years ago. And when he was a child, he came from a family where their idea of a good time was to get some beer and invite the neighbors and sing all night long. And they saved up their money, they could get a barrel of beer. And now they invite the neighbors in, and it did not bother them that their neighbors are mostly Protestant. They were Catholic, but they just sing all night long. So, Tommy, some six years ago, rented some theaters and in different parts of Ireland he invited the leaders of the south and the leaders of the north in for a song fest. And he let them know they are both going to be there. But he says, “It is not politics at all.” We were just going to sing all night. No politics, no politics, just singing. And they sing all night, not just one or two hours, but three or four or five hours. And then, at the end of the day they started talking with each other, they still will not shake hands. They cannot that we cannot do it, but they are no longer trying to shoot at each other. Tommy Sand has brought an island together with singing. 58:12 SM: I got to get that book too. You are very well read. 60:46 PS: I am a readaholic. 60:47 SM: Well so am I, I got about ten thousand books, I am constantly reading. But you are able to really grasp the meaning of all the books and ideas that you have read and be able to put some dots to them and linkage. A couple other things ̶ 61:05 PS: Two recent books, have you read the book, Blessed Unrest by Paul Hawkin? 61:13 SM: No, I have not. 61:14 PS: Hawken is a small businessman, but he is an [economist]. He is spoken at like thousand places in the last fifteen years. And the words blessed unrest was spoken by Martha Graham to the young dancer Agnes de Mille ̶ and all of us artists are filled with a blessed unrest, trying to reach the infinite and of course never making it but never giving up trying. Paul says, how is it that the largest movement in the world is taking place and nobody predicted it ̶ what is the largest movement ̶ all the little things that are going on in small business, the smallest nonprofit groups, small religious groups, all artistic groups, all sorts of small things, often locally, in my hometown of Beacon, fourteen thousand people. There was a race riot thirty years ago and some women started a block party they call the "Spirit of Beacon Day. It is always the last Sunday in September. And they send invitations to every church, black churches, white churches, synagogues, Muslim mosque, and in recent years, a Hindu temple, the Latino Pentecostal, and every service club, the Lions, the Kiwanis, the American Legion and so on. And everybody has a table on the sidewalk. Usually a piece of paper telling when they meet what they believe in. And they often have food and serving ̶ this drink it is only fifty cents. This sandwich is only $1. People walk up and down Main Street, sampling the food from different places and listening to different kinds of music, hear music. It is a big group from a few hundred to thousand to two thousand to four thousand. Now it is up to ten thousand in a town of fourteen thousand. Of course, there are probably still four thousand saying, they are going to hell. 63:48 SM: Well, I just might trip up to Beacon to see you that day and see all the people that the swim across the Hudson. 63:54 PS: If you ever come to Beacon do come on the last Sunday in September, it rains. It is the first Sunday in October. 64:03 SM: Well, maybe I will. Just in my one trip to Beacon I fell in love with the place. I fell in love with the people because of the fact ̶ and I love the cause of saving the Hudson. Just seeing that ̶ it just ̶ may be that is a very positive that in things that you have done, and maybe it is the smaller things that we do not often recognize that are making great impacts. And maybe the boomers are a lot of them are involved in this. A couple of terms, the Vietnam Memorial. Jan Scruggs wrote the book, To Heal a Nation. What do you think the Vietnam Memorial in Washington has done? Is just basically healed our veterans or has it done anything with respect to healing our nation from the war? 64:48 PS: No one thing could change everything, but I think it changed a lot of people's opinion. 64:55 SM: All right, and also your thoughts on the Students for Democratic Society, and the Weathermen and Vietnam Veterans Against the War ̶ those very big anti-war groups? 65:09 PS: I, myself, [aware of bigness] even big organizations. I would like to deal off small organizations. I was against that big thing in Madison Square Garden. I have to admit, they handled it very well. They had very good sound, and very good lights and so on. And a wonderful singing audience. But when they put it on the air, August 1, they did not show you how beautifully the audience was singing. All you could hear was the soloist. 65:46 SM: That was your ninetieth birthday. Yeah, well, that was an honor. That must be. A couple more people here just to respond to ̶ these are personalities now. Tom Hayden, just quick thoughts on each of these individuals. 66:02 PS: Way back thirty years ago, nice guy. 66:07 SM: How about Jane Fonda? 66:10 PS: Likewise, I met her even before then when she was hardly out of her teens, briefly married to some guy in Russia. 66:20 SM: Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, so the Yippies. 66:24 PS: Well, I met Abbie, late in life. And we got along very well. In the beginning, I was arguing with both Abbie and Jerry, that the things you are going to do everything with young people. I think you got to work with all ages. I work with little kids now if you are in my hometown. 66:46 SM: You know what is interesting, Pete, is that it was Jerry Rubin that coined the phrase do not trust anyone over thirty. Did you ever talk to him about that? Because what is interesting, when I read his book, Do It ̶ he was twenty-nine. He was one year away from being thirty. So, I never understood that. 67:05 PS: Well, I laugh at that, you have to laugh at slogans. 67:12 SM: Timothy Leary. 67:14 PS: I never knew him. I never met him. 67:17 SM: What you think of him? 67:18 PS: Well, I mistrust him, trying to solve your problem with anything you eat or drink. 67:27 SM: What did you think of the Black Panther leaders like Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Angela Davis, that group. 67:37 PS: They were very brave, but I believe in the slogan, it was an anarchist I knew, who he said, wait a minute, I am trying to remember- love, truth, bravery. You need all three. Oh, no, of course my memory is going I cannot remember this anarchist. He was a wonderful guy. This is the way back in the 1950s, he said this, "Love, truth bravery.” Love alone is sentimentality. As in the average churchgoer. True alone is, oh gosh I have it written down ̶ 68:37 SM: Yes. Okay. Couple other names here ̶ 68:42 PS: Oh, wait a minute, all three. Okay when it comes to bravery, bravery is foolhardiness. As in the average soldier. Need all three. And so, I think this was the problem that Malcolm had and the others. Bravery is not enough. You need the truth and you need love. 68:49 SM: How about your overall comment on Richard Nixon. 69:21 PS: I cannot remember. 69:31 SM: Richard Nixon? 69:32 PS: I thought he did not have truth. 69:35 SM: How about Spiro Agnew? 69:39 PS: I guess there he lacked truth and love. 69:43 SM: Eugene McCarthy? 69:46 PS: Well, I think the state he made was in again, not working broadly that you might not see, I would put in addition to truth, love truth brave, humor. Humor is one of the most important qualities the world needs. We may be saved by humor. 70:15 SM: Well, that brings me to the Kennedy brothers, John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy and certainly, John Kennedy, your thoughts on those two brothers? 70:26 PS: Well, it was an extraordinary family, an extraordinary mother. The mother had nine children. And she lived into her nineties. 70:40 SM: And she lost her ̶ 70:41 PS: Her husband's infidelity. Put up with all her various children's different ways of working ̶ 70:55 SM: How about George McGovern? 70:59 PS: George, wait a minute ̶ 71:02 SM: George McGovern. He ran for president in 1972. Senator from South Dakota. 71:12 PS: Oh, I thought I spoke about him earlier. 71:16 SM: That was Eugene McCarthy. 71:23 PS: You need all these different things. Of course, you need instant recount voting. Know what that is? Clinton turned down money with air. I was shouting obscenities ̶ that was his greatest chance to introduce America to proportional representation. I went to a school where we voted for the student council by proportional representation. We voted our first choice, second choice and third choice. And we had a good student council. And if Lani Guinier been kept in the cabinet, she would have brought this idea to the American people. Most people do not even know what IRB stands for, or proportional representation. But when I did not meet Clinton once about four years ago, he was at a meeting, and I tried to speak about it and he just clammed up. 72:39 SM: How about Lyndon Johnson? 72:43 PS: Well, he did one, some very good things. Voting right act. Voting right act, 1965 I guess it was. 72:58 SM: How about Robert McNamara? 73:02 PS: I have not read his book. I would like to say ̶ 73:05 SM: Well, he wrote, he has actually written five, but his last two would be the one you would want to read. He, the first one was ̶ 73:12 PS: I am willing to bet that his children got him to write the last one because they said, Dad, you cannot go to your grave without telling what you know. 73:24 SM: Right? 73:25 PS: Finally came out. 73:27 SM: In Retrospect came out in (19)95. It is called In Retrospect. And then he wrote another book, that followed and those were his last two. So, those were good reads. Just a couple more names and we are done. The women, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, Betty Friedan, the women leaders who kind of led the women's movement Still there. Hello? Pete you still there? PS: Well I think I have told you more than you need to know. SM: Okay. All right. Well, I am going to conclude with this. I will not ask any more names. But what is your final thoughts on the boomer generation, those young people that you have performed before? If you were, if the history books fifty years or hundred years from now or writing about them, giving an analysis, what do you think they will say, and your final thoughts if you were writing that book? 74:59 PS: Writing what book? 75:00 SM: Well, if you were writing a book hundred years from now on the boomer generation, what would be your final thoughts on them? What do you think history is going to say about them? 75:09 PS: I do not know enough about it to write. To you, I will say, I think they made the same mistake that many of us make when we have some success. Oh, we now know, we have the key to the future. Because we have won some successes. I mistrust the word t-h-e. I really do. The solution, the origin, the destiny. So, I would say that they made some made up the wonderful things done, but they made similar mistakes too many others. 75:57 SM: Do you think they had been a good influence on their kids and grandkids? 76:02 PS: My guess is yes, probably most of them. I get letters from now that I have got too much publicity. My own problem now I got too much publicity and life is very difficult, mail comes in by the bushel. And I have to add to it form letters. 76:22 SM: Okay, I want to thank you very much for talking to me today and it was an honor to meet you at Beacon a couple of weeks back. And all I can say ̶ I will be sending you a waiver form. 76:34 PS: I cannot remember when you were here ̶ 76:36 SM: I was here when the swim across the Hudson. And I interviewed you on the bank but then they kind of pulled you away to perform. And so, thank you very much. I will send a waiver form and certainly the transcript sometime in the next three months. And then I will get back to you for final okay. And also, I think I owe you a lunch. 77:03 PS: Oh no. 77:04 SM: Pete you have been you have been more than gracious. And of course, your sister is unbelievable as well because I interviewed her. So, you have a great day. 77:14 PS: Oh, my sister was born in (19)35. So, she is ten years older than the boomers. 77:27 SM: Yes but she still ̶ she came to our campus and she is the one that called you originally after I interviewed her on the phone to say talk to Steve. So, I really appreciate this Pete. 77:40 PS: Okay your first name is Steve? 77:43 SM: McKiernan M-c- K-i-e-r-n-a-n. And it was my grandfather was the minister of the first Methodist Church in Peekskill, New York. He died in 1956. He was only sixty-one years old. He had a bad heart, but he was the minister there from 1936 to 1954. And of course, I wish I could ask him about that Paul Robeson incident because, you know, I was too young he died when I was only eight years old. So, I you know, I just remember going to the church and of course the church burned down on - an arsonist burned the church down after my grandfather had passed away. So now they got this ugly looking, one level church in Peekskill, but first Methodist Church, but ̶ 78:33 PS: Did they burn it down because of his preaching? 78:39 SM: Oh, no, he had died and, but it was where my ̶ it was a beautiful church. And ̶ 78:45 PS: Why did they burn it down? 78:47 SM: Well, they wanted a new church. And I remember this whole issue after my dad, my grandfather is at ̶ 78:57 PS: That is kind of a dangerous way to get rid of a church. 79:00 SM: Yeah, well, my dad was very upset. In fact, my dad cried and drove into Peekskill after it burned down because they would just, they knew, they never caught the person who did it. But my dad grew up there, you know, as a young guy and he went off to World War II and everything. But you know, but the Paul Robeson in the news were involved in that incident as well. So, I would have liked to have talked to him about that. If I am in ̶ 79:30 PS: September fourth, sixtieth anniversary, the big Paramount Theater will have a program. I will be singing a couple songs, saying a few words on September 4, 79:47 SM: At what theater? 79:49 PS: At the Paramount Theatre in Peekskill. 79:53 SM: I am going to try to go, is that an evening event? 79:56 PS: It may be an all-day event, for all I know. 79:58 SM: Oh, wow. 80:00 PS: Go take a photo. 80:04 SM: Yeah, I have definitely had ̶ of course, grandfather's at Ferncliff. Along was his wife and kids. So, all right, Pete. Well, thank you very much. You have a great day and carry on. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 1 Microcassette Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Pete Seeger Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Seeger, Pete, 1919-2014 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Folk singers; Human rights workers; Seeger, Pete, 1919-2014--Interviews Description An account of the resource Pete Seeger (May 3, 1919 - January 27, 2014) was a folk singer and a social activist. In addition to being a folk singer, he also wrote his own songs as he performed them to people. He wrote songs throughout the different time periods of history. For example, he recorded a 78 RPM album called <em>Songs of the Lincoln Battalion</em> with Tom Glazer, Bess Lomax, and Baldwin Hawes. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2009-07-25 ; 2009-08-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.112 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 80:25 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/40f31bf002884775d26855b70ef32fb6.jpg a3f7d9d2212eb2508bdb01c39ee2eb97 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b414833457a6c72673270c6c041f5510.mp3 2080ed5ad83ffb3421638e98e06ce630 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-04-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steven R. Shapiro Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Steven R. Shapiro is an attorney and educator. He is the former legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union, the nation's oldest and largest civil liberties organization. Shapiro also taught taught at Stanford Law School, and the NYU School of Law and he is currently a lecturer in Law at Columbia University. He has a Bachelor's degree from Columbia University and a Law degree from Harvard University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15107,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16317180],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":10}">Steven R. Shapiro is an attorney and educator. He is the former legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union, the nation's oldest and largest civil liberties organization. Shapiro also taught at Stanford Law School, and the NYU School of Law and he is currently a lecturer in Law at Columbia University. He has a Bachelor's degree from Columbia University and a Law degree from Harvard University.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 92:27 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Activism; War draft; NAACP; Civil Rights Movement; Brown v. Education; segregation; Baby boom generation; Assassination of John. F Kennedy; Earth Day; Gaylord Nelson; Lawyers; The financial crisis."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Activism; War draft; NAACP; Civil Rights Movement; Brown v. Education; segregation; Baby boom generation; Assassination of John. F Kennedy; Earth Day; Gaylord Nelson; Lawyers; The financial crisis.</span> Subject LCSH Lawyers; Lecturers; American Civil Liberties Union; Shapiro, Steven R.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Steve Shapiro Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Shapiro, Steven R. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Lecturers; American Civil Liberties Union; Shapiro, Steven R.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Steven R. Shapiro is an attorney and educator. He is the former legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union, the nation's oldest and largest civil liberties organization. Shapiro also taught at Stanford Law School, and the NYU School of Law and he is currently a lecturer in Law at Columbia University. He has a Bachelor's degree from Columbia University and a Law degree from Harvard University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-04-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.113 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 92:27 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/30994d02e6875d72713dff14b60d6c00.jpg a9d67373b3936d15690bfde83bb7f256 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f74a1e0d5f279f93122ea3d56e585f5c.mp3 0cfde04994fa806bbb2d71f383e508cb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-06-05 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Simmons Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 142:16 Keywords Baby boom generation; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; TV in the Nineteen fifties; Segregation; Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Summer of Love. Subject LCSH Simmons, Michael--Interviews Biographical Text <span>Musician, writer, filmmaker and activist Michael Simmons was dubbed “The Father Of Country Punk” by <i>Creem</i> magazine in the 1970s. He was an editor of the <i>National Lampoon</i> in the ’80s where he wrote the popular column “Drinking Tips And Other War Stories” and won an LA Press Club Award in the ’90s for his investigative journalism for the <i>LA Weekly</i>. He has written for <i>MOJO</i>, <i>Rolling Stone</i>, <i>Penthouse</i>, </span><span><i>LA Weekly</i></span><span>, </span><span><i>The New York Times</i>, <i>LA Times</i>, <i>High Times</i>, <i>Artillery</i>, <i>CounterPunch</i>, <i>The Rag Blog</i>, <i>The Progressive</i> and <i>Dangerous Minds</i> and has scribed liner notes for Bob Dylan, Michael Bloomfield, Phil Ochs, Kris Kristofferson, Mose Allison, Kinky Friedman, </span><span>Arthur Lee & Love</span><span> </span><span>and Paul Krassner</span><span>. He wrote and co-produced the documentary <i>The Real Rocky</i> about boxer Chuck Wepner.</span> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Michael Simmons Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 5 June 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) MS (00:00:03): Michael Simmons. SM (00:00:08): Michael, could you give me a little bit, just like in the interview you had with, I think Light in the Attic there, a little bit on your background. Where you grew up, who your mentors were in those first... Say you are in high school, the influences early in your life, maybe a little bit about your parents and your schooling before you really got into music? MS (00:00:35): Well, I was born in New York City in 1955. I am the oldest son of two basically, secular Jewish liberal Democrats, Stevenson, Kennedy liberal democrats from New York. most of my childhood, beginning of my teen years were in the (19)60s. Okay, you asked me a lot of questions at once, so why do not we take each one at one at a time? SM (00:01:22): Okay. MS (00:01:22): What do you want to know? SM (00:01:24): Your beginning years when you were in junior high school and high school? What was going to school like? MS (00:01:29): I would not say those were my beginning years, but my consciousness started to form way before then. Well, I will tell you something. I always knew that I was different, And it just so happens that I was born into that generation. And of course it meant a lot to me that I came of age in the (19)60s. But I would have been an outsider if I had been born 20 years earlier, 20 years later. I will tell you a funny story. My early heroes, when I was a little kid, aside from Bug's Bunny, because he was a troublemaker and he was funny, were, I loved juvenile delinquent movies. And I am talking about when I was four or five years old, I used to watch them on TV. I adored anything about juvenile delinquents. My first week of first grade, there was a cute little blonde girl in my class, and she became my girlfriend of sorts. As much as, I do not know how old a first-grader is, 5, 6, 7 years old, something like that? And she and I planned a bank heist. Here are these two first-graders planning on knocking over a bank. I was enamored with criminals. Because they were the first people who represented people that did not want to be part of, had no interest in being part of the square world, the society in general. And from there, being raised in New York, I grew up very quickly. And I was thinking about this the other day, because I was looking on the Village Voice website, and they have some things archived from the (19)60s, the (19)50s and (19)60s on the site. I started reading the Village Voice, I think, in 1965 or (19)66, when I was either 10 or 11. I mean every week. And so I did not know who these people were, all these painters and poets, but they fascinated me and I got it. I got that, again, they were outsiders, and that the Village Voice was the newspaper for outsiders. Within a year or two, the East Village Other would begin publishing. Or actually it may have started (19)65, I do not remember exactly, and they were even edgier. But I was always drawn to Bohemians. I remember being at camp in the mid (19)60s, summer camp, and at the end of every year in summer camp, we would have something called Color War, which was they would divide the camp up into different colors and they would have different competitions. There was one group of counselors, one of whom I remember in retrospect, I had no idea at the time. But in retrospect, I know that he was gay. And another counselor, a woman was the arts and crafts teacher. And so there was this little crew of counselors who really vocally disliked this concept of color war. Now, what I figured out later is that this little group were beatniks, basically. I mean, we are talking before hippies. By a couple of years, not long, but you know what I mean. There were hippies, but they were not called hippies yet by the media. And I loved them, they were my favorite counselors. So I have always been drawn to the outsiders. I have always been drawn to the Bohemian, and I have always been drawn to the artsy people. Did that answer your question? SM (00:06:08): Yeah. Were you fans of the Kerouac's? The Cassidy's? The Ginsburg's? MS (00:06:13): Well, yeah, but that came later. SM (00:06:14): That came later. Yeah. MS (00:06:17): I am trying to think. I do not remember when I first read On the Road. I began learning who they were. One of my first heroes was Ginsburg. Now, I did buy Howl at a precociously early age, like 11 or something, which would have been (19)66. SM (00:06:35): And that came out in (19)55. MS (00:06:37): Right. No, but I was born in (19)55. SM (00:06:42): So you probably were an Elliot Ness TV fan then, right? On television, because he was... MS (00:06:47): Robert Stack. SM (00:06:48): Yes. MS (00:06:49): That show you mean? SM (00:06:50): Yes. MS (00:06:51): Sure, used to watch that. SM (00:06:53): But that was real big in the (19)60s. And of course, the Cosa Nostra was big in the (19)50s, the underworld. One of the things, I was looking, and I have got a lot of questions from some of the interviews and some background information I have on you, is you have been a musician most of your life, and of course a writer as well. And you call yourself oftentimes a hippie, but you love Country and Western. Could you define what a Country and Western hippie is? MS (00:07:21): Well, these are just words used to give a people a general idea of who I am. I mean, there is no such thing as a Country and Western hippie per se. I guess a Country and Western hippie is somebody with hippie values and perhaps appearance who digs Country music or plays Country music or both. I mean, there is no hard and fast. For instance, I was reading some of your questions that you had sent to Pete Seeger. And I do not know if you saw some guy wrote after that interview I gave for Light in the Attic, criticizing me for being "a Boomer exceptional." SM (00:08:16): Yeah, in fact, I have that right here. MS (00:08:17): And my attitude is I am not a Boomer, nothing. Yeah, technically I am a Baby Boomer according to sociological demarcation. But I do not want to be stuck in a box like that. It is kind of uncomfortable. Well, we can get into the (19)60s later, but Country and Western hippie. In the late (19)60s, I was already a musician. I started playing guitar. I was one of these kids who fell in love with the Beatles in 1963, 64. And I wanted to be a Beatle. I wanted to be a rock and roll musician. And I got a guitar for my 10th birthday, and learned how to play it and started a rock and roll band at a very young age. And by the late (19)60s, a friend of mine was into hardcore Country music like Hank Williams and Merle Haggard, people like that. And he turned me onto it, and I loved it. And I knew that this is what Dylan and the Byrds and people like that were listening to. And hence, certain albums like Nashville Skyline by Dylan or Sweetheart of the Rodeo by the Byrds, the Country was influencing rock. SM (00:09:48): Well, what is interesting is through all these interviews that I have done, different angles, different perspectives, and I have had no one talk about Country and Western, because everybody talks about rock and Motown and folk music and pop vocals. And I have a question here. When we define the music of the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s and beyond, we think of rock, Motown, folk, protest music and music with messages, pop vocals, but rarely Country unless one mentions the big names like Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, Waylon Jennings, Loretta Lynn. However, there is a history of Country and Western, as you explain via your connections with Kris Kristofferson. Explain the linkage to the (19)60s and (19)70s mentality that was present in Boomer youth, even in Country during this time? Because you made some great observations in the interview when you talked about Kris Kristofferson, but then you were talking about the music as a whole. MS (00:10:53): Yeah. Well, I am not sure exactly what your question is, but... SM (00:11:03): What was Country and Western going through during this timeframe? MS (00:11:07): Oh, I see what you are saying. Well, Country was the music originally of the South and of working class southerners, and hence reflecting them. It was basically politically a fairly conservative music. What happened in the late (19)60s, mid to late (19)60s is that these cats started showing up in Nashville, like Kristofferson and others who were more literate. Some of them had college educations. They would read Shakespeare and William Blake, and at the same time, being younger, they also were not afraid of long hair and the counterculture and rock and roll, they dug that. Because that was also part of their world. Cats like Kristofferson being the most notable, obviously. And so Kris helped loosen up Nashville, and he dragged it kicking and screaming, I should say, into the (19)60s. SM (00:12:30): Would Willie Nelson be part of that too? MS (00:12:32): Well, yeah, Willie, he was, but quietly. Willie was not nationally known until the (19)70s, probably early to mid-(19)70s. So he came a little bit later. I mean, he was in Nashville in the early (19)60s writing songs. He wrote Crazy for Patsy Cline, for instance. And he was smoking grass, and he was definitely his own man. He thought for himself, he was an individual. But very few people outside of Nashville or Texas knew who he was. So he did not have an effect on the larger culture until later on. SM (00:13:25): But Kristofferson and Johnny Cash did, because they were pretty big names. MS (00:13:31): Well, Cash had been a big name since the- I guess, earlier to mid-(19)60s or so, or actually since the (19)50s, I am sorry. Folsom Prison Blues. And I Walk the Line and stuff like that. Johnny Cash in many ways came up with the Sun Records, early Rock and Rollers, like Elvis and Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, and Roy Orbison, people like that. So Cash had always been a little bit hipper than a lot of the Country artists. SM (00:14:10): He wrote some great protest songs too, against the Vietnam War. Some classic ones. MS (00:14:16): Yeah, he did a whole album of protest songs about the plight of the American Indian, actually. Which was a pretty bold thing to do in Nashville in the (19)60s, given how conservative the town was. And he got shit for it, too. People claimed that his wife at the time, before June Carter, was part black. And they spread all these rumors about her and him. And so some of the more conservative elements went after him for being a free thinker. But he did not let it affect him. But Cash was definitely, he was one of the early ones. SM (00:15:13): Where would you place Buffy Sainte-Marie in here too, because of her music, as part native? She is Native American, but she is from Canada, I believe. MS (00:15:24): Yeah, she is Canadian. SM (00:15:24): Yeah. And in recent years, particularly in the (19)80s, Bill Miller, who is a pretty good entertainer as well, he is Native American. There are not too many Native American singers. MS (00:15:36): Right, right. Well, Buffy Sainte-Marie, although she did record a Country album, I think it is called, I Want to Be a Country Girl Again or something. What? Hold on one second. I have a Buffy Sainte-Marie Best of sitting right here. Where is that? Anyway. Oh, here it is, it was called, I am Going to Be a Country Girl Again was the name of the song and the album. But that she recorded in Nashville. I think it was, let us see, 1968, pretty early. But she was really more of a folkie. She was part of the folk boom. SM (00:16:18): Could you describe a little bit more of the culture you identify with? Were you part of the counterculture? A lot of people have given me a lot of different definitions of the counterculture. In your words, what is it? MS (00:16:33): Oh God. Well, first of all, there is more than one counterculture. There are all kinds of countercultures. But for the purposes of what we are talking about here, the counterculture... It is so difficult to try to cram into a box. The Beats were a counterculture. The hippies were a counterculture. Counterculture is the term used to describe any form of culture that is outside the mainstream. Now, the so-called (19)60s' counterculture, it has got all the clichés and long hair and leftist politics and rock and roll and communal living and things like that. The (19)60s counter culture has its own identifying markers. But there are many countercultures. Some would argue that, for instance, the Tea Party, which is the polar opposite of anything that I would ever be a part of, is a counterculture of a kind as well. Now, in terms of me being part of a counterculture, yeah, I was more or less what people refer to as a hippie. In fact, I still am. SM (00:18:07): But a lot of people, when they talk about the Boomer generation, of course, is defined as people born between 1946 and 1964. And even Todd Gitlin, when I interviewed him, he hates the term Boomer generation, and there are others who do not like it. And he said, the people in the Boomer generation between (19)46 and (19)56 are totally different than the Boomers between say, (19)56 and (19)64, because they did not have the same experiences. MS (00:18:39): Well, the big one being, I will tell you, because when I did look at some of those questions you sent to Pete Seeger, the big one that separates those two halves, and I am the tail end of the first half, is that we experienced the Kennedy assassination. Whereas of course, the younger ones did not. Either did not, or they were too young to know what was going on, really. And the Kennedy assassination, of course, was a one of the most powerful events that the country lived through in that time in the early (19)60s. So in terms of being a young person in that time and living through, I mean, all the clichés, the loss of a young vital president who represented change and youth and vitality and all that. It was like enduring a punch in the stomach, a blow to the solar plexus. It took the air out of an entire generation. And it kind of sets people of my age and slightly older up for a change, we wanted a change after that. We did not want the same old death culture that America seemed to represent to us. Does that make sense? SM (00:20:19): Yeah, that is very good. Would you say in your life, that is the one event that shaped you more than any other? MS (00:20:27): I do not think I can say that one event shaped me more than any other, I do not think I can choose just one. But I think it was the first event outside of my personal experience that had a profound impact. SM (00:20:49): Do you remember the exact moment where you were when you... MS (00:20:51): Absolutely. SM (00:20:52): Could you explain that moment? MS (00:20:55): Yeah. I was in, I do not know, third grade, second grade, something like that? And it was the end of the school day. So it was around 2:30, three o'clock in the afternoon. And I was walking out of the school yard, and some girl came up to me and said, "Somebody shot President Kennedy." And I went, "What?" I was surprised. I was shocked. I loved President Kennedy. About a year or so before then, my mother had bought me Profiles in Courage and I would read it. And I was reading at a very young age, I think my father said I I was reading by the time I was four, basically. SM (00:21:46): Oh, that is excellent. MS (00:21:47): And I read Profiles in Courage. I idolized JFK. And I remember walking home, and we lived around the corner from my elementary school, in an apartment building in New York, and there was an elevator operator, and his name was Johnny. I remember this. And I said, "I heard President Kennedy was shot." And he said, "Yeah, but he is going to be okay. He is just wounded." And I went upstairs and my mother was not home yet. And I went and I turned the TV set on. And at some point I saw Walter Cronkite come on and give that announcement, where he looked up at the clock and he said what time JFK was pronounced dead. And I obviously was shocked. And I heard the key come in the door and I heard the lock turn, and I saw the door open, and my mother walked in and looked at me, and she just started to sob. And, wow- SM (00:23:07): But did your family- MS (00:23:09): ...To think of it. SM (00:23:09): ...Spend the next four days around the TV, like so many? MS (00:23:12): Oh, yeah. We saw the Oswald assassination as well. We saw the funeral. It was nonstop for four days. And then, I believe the assassination was on a Thursday, they suspended school on Friday. We went back to school on Monday. And the first thing, they had an assembly to try to... I was like a little kid, you have to remember. And I was in elementary school, so they held an assembly to try to explain to the kids what had happened. My parents were very forthright in trying to explain to me the context. So plus I was already a daily newspaper reader. Had been reading the New York Times since I was a little kid. But yeah, that was a heavy-heavy-heavy-heavy-heavy... SM (00:24:16): Getting back to the music, when we are looking at the Boomer generation, we are talking about any time from 1946 through today, because the oldest Boomers are now 63, and the youngest are 47. And so I have got a question here about the music, because music has been so much a part of your life, not only as a performer with your own group and all the experiences you have had as a writer and the people you have met and worked with. I am breaking it right down here, into the decades. What did you like about the music of the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, the (19)80s, and the nineties and beyond? There had to be something in those decades that you liked? MS (00:25:07): Well, I mean, (19)50s, obviously. I remain a lifelong fan of Rock and Roll, Elvis, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Fats Domino, Jerry Lee Lewis, people like that. But even though we kind of rebelled against it, I also always dug my parents' music, meaning Sinatra and jazz, and Mel Torme and Ella Fitzgerald, and people like that. By the (19)60s, obviously, to this day, my favorite music is the holy trinity of Rock and Roll, which is The Beatles, and Dylan and The Rolling Stones. And then all the other (19)60s groups like Jefferson Airplane, the Doors, the Band, the Byrds, and so on. I could go on and on, Hendrix, obviously. I could go on and on and on. That is the stuff that really is meaningful to me. Although I love all kinds of music, and all different eras. (19)70s for me, a lot of it was Country, really. And I also got into old rhythm and blues, old jump blues stuff like Louis Jordan, things like that. But really, the (19)70s was my Country decade, I should say. Now, after that, from the (19)80s on, there is music that I like, and there are singers that I like and musicians that I like and songwriters that I like. But I cannot say that I have a passion for post 1980 pop music the way I did for pre-1980 pop music. SM (00:27:26): How about that music from the mid-(19)70s, disco, which is Saturday Night Fever, seemed to be the line of demarcation? MS (00:27:33): Yeah. Actually, at the time, I was not a disco fan, and some of it is atrocious. But recently I have been hearing old disco songs from the (19)70s, I do not know, on radio or here and there. And some of it is not bad. It was that mechanized beat that used to drive me crazy that, "dint-dint-dint", was something a little same about it, kind of. By definition, it is repetitive, but it has its charm. SM (00:28:20): Yeah, and then my next question is a direct response that you gave to this interview, which I think was an unbelievable response, and I would like it clarified even a little further. This was a question, you remember this, "What about Kristofferson appeals to you? What makes him such a timeless artist?" And your response is "You have to understand the mindset of the (19)60s America, it was an us versus them dynamic. On one side, we were freaks, hippies, troublemakers, and activists. On the other side was the rest of America. At the same time, I had gotten into hardcore Country music, while not shedding my hippie heart. The great thing about Kris, he was one of the first people who was all..." SM (00:29:03): Great thing about Chris, he was one of the first people who was authentically country, but at the same time spoke to hippies. And you mentioned a couple of songs like Billy D and the Pilgrim songs about us, my generation and my world at the same time. It was authentic country music. He was ours, he represented our side. He also bridged the gap. He is in arguably one of the greatest living American songwriters. When you put that together, you by saying that, that is very prophetic in my view. Could you ex explain it even a little further? Because I have been a big fan of Kris Kristofferson, but I have never thought of him in the terms like you explain in this question. MS (00:29:46): Well, I mean, for instance, his most famous song is Me and Bobby McGee. If one listens to the lyrics, it is basically the story of a young hippie couple guy and a girl traveling around the country. It captures that kind of wanderlust that young people engage in general, but particularly members of my generation in that time period, you know. People still hitchhiked in the (19)60s. I do not know if they hitchhike anymore. SM (00:30:18): If they do, they are arrested. MS (00:30:21): Huh? SM (00:30:22): If they do, they are arrested and picked up. MS (00:30:24): Yeah. Yeah. You know, the interesting thing is, for all the complaining we did in the (19)60s, America was a much freer place back then. I mean, it was not free enough for us. But the irony is it got less free, particularly post 1980, which is when Reagan was elected, and that was the beginning of the end, as far as I am concerned. SM (00:30:50): What does less free mean? You say, "Less free." MS (00:30:54): Well, there used to be fewer rules. It works both ways. In some respects. There are things have improved, certainly things have improved since the (19)60s for Black people, and for minorities in general, for women, things like that. I mean, as Hunter Thompson used to say, "The (19)60s was a time when you could roam around the country and not worry about some cop inputting your name in a computer and finding out you had 20 parking tickets in California." Let me see if I can rephrase this, I think Orwell's prophecy came true. I think we are living in an Orwellian police state. I think there is a Big Brother. I think the internet is contributing to that. I mean, I think there are good things about the internet too, but I think one of the negative things about it is a lot of these things like Facebook and other things are means to collect information about people. And it is scary. SM (00:32:22): Yeah. We have been telling students for years about, "Be careful what you put on your Facebook because employers can somehow get access to it, and they can even determine your politics based on what you say about a certain thing that is happening in the news." MS (00:32:38): Sure. SM (00:32:39): Is a follow-up to that question, you said some unbelievable things also about his music, and some of the songs and how relevant they are. And you said music that really influenced you and that you loved, or that was that kind of music that had what you said, "Writing hooks." Great melodies, songs that stay in your mind, lyrics that are beautifully honest and songs on of the times. I would like you to maybe mention some of the music from the either (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s in particular, that you feel were fallen there, not just Kris Kristofferson. And I wrote down 10 songs here that I felt fit, that quality, and I would like your opinion. Marvin Gaye's, What's Going On? Simon and Garfunkel, Bridge Over Troubled Water. John Lennon, Imagine. Barbara Streisand, The Way We Were. The Chambers Brothers, In Time, Mamas and Papas, California Dreamin, Michael Murphy's Wildfire. Sonny and Cher, The Beat Goes On. Barry White, Let the Music Play. Frank Sinatra, My Way. Richie Havens, Freedom. And Bob Dylan, Like a Rolling Stone. And I think I got one other one here, if I can find it here. Well, that is basically the group. Yeah. Is that what is you are talking about here? Because those are continually in my head, 30 years after they were performed. MS (00:34:17): Yeah. Well, in terms of songwriting, there is a certain craft to writing a great song to writing what, what is called a hook. I mean, a hook is really just a melodic and/or lyrical line that for whatever reason, stays in people's heads. There is something memorable about it, either musically, lyrically, or both, hopefully both. And those songs, I would not necessarily agree with everyone, but as I said, that is what makes horse races. It is just a matter of taste. But yeah, most of the songs are extraordinary songs, they are memorable songs. They have hooks, they have great hooks. Those are all well-written songs. Whether I personally love them or not, it is immaterial. Those are all well-written songs. Well, I have some theories about why, and I will discuss those in a second. I mean, there are still people writing good songs, not many. And I do not ask me who they are because I mean, I could tell you a few names. But the art of writing great hooks, and which ultimately means writing great songs kind of has been lost. And part of it is with the popularity rather of hip hop and punk rock, two primary influences on contemporary pop music and rock music, rhythm became more important than melody. Punk and hip hop are rhythm driven, they are not melody driven. And the concept of the hook is largely about melody. So if there is no melody or no identifiable melody, your chances of having a powerful hook that people are going to remember is diminished. Does that make sense? Now, whether there are people who disagree with me about this, but it is just my take on it. I saw the rise of hip-hop and punk rock, and at the same time I noticed that fewer people were writing memorable songs. So I tried to figure out, "Why is this?" And all I could figure out is rhythm over melody, rhythm over melody. SM (00:37:30): The people who really love rap, I have been in the university for quite a few years. Some of them are fair, some of the music is halfway decent. But the one comparison where you might see a comparison between the (19)60s and early (19)70s' music, which is music with messages and strong ethics and strong things for people to think about. That is what a lot of rap music is about. The poverty within the inner city, the plight of Black people that Marvin Gaye sang about it in 1971, but now this is a new way of expressing it. Sure. Any thoughts on the messages? Because the message is a very important part of a song. Kris Kristofferson songs had messages to them. If you listen to them, the problem with a lot of the loud music today is you cannot listen to the message, even though the words are there. The problem I have with it, sometimes. MS (00:38:33): I agree with you and I will give hip hop credit for bringing back lyricism and storytelling. Whether I think personally like it or not, is immaterial for the most part. I do not care for it. I mean, I do not hate it or anything, it is just it is not my thing. But I will give rap artists credit for bringing back spoken word. Or I should say the power of the word. It is not just that it is spoken, but the word that these are story songs, essentially. SM (00:39:10): Which- MS (00:39:10): And often as you point out with messages- SM (00:39:12): ...which seemed to maybe have died in the mid (19)70s when disco came. Yeah. Cause that was all about dancing and everything. Could you define something? I think you are working on something called Outlaw Country Vein, is it is a- MS (00:39:29): Outlaw Country, what? SM (00:39:30): You can call it the Outlaw Country Vein, V-E-I-N. You talk about the music. Kristoffer Kristofferson used to say, as you said in the quote from him, "Do not let the bastards get you down." MS (00:39:45): Oh. Oh- SM (00:39:46): The kind of rebellion streak in American spirit. MS (00:39:48): You are referencing that other interview. SM (00:39:51): Yeah. And also what I love it here, when you say, "The rebellious streak in the American spirit", which was so prevalent in the (19)60s and mid to the mid (19)70s. MS (00:40:03): Yeah. So, I am sorry, what is your question? SM (00:40:06): The question is, how do you define outlaw country music? MS (00:40:11): Well, very specific. It was a very specific music of a time. It was these artists in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, notably Waylon Jennings, Willie Nelson, Kristoffer Kristofferson, and then some lesser known people like Kinky Friedman and others. A lot of them from Texas. Steven? SM (00:40:40): I am here. MS (00:40:41): Oh. I thought you dropped out for a sec. SM (00:40:43): No. MS (00:40:43): Sorry. SM (00:40:43): Yep. MS (00:40:48): They grew their hair along. They did not dress like the older country singers. They looked like they were hippies basically. And they were singing music, it was a little bit closer to rock music. It was stark, it was less produced. I should say it was just as produced, but it had kind of a realistic ethos to it. Very earthy, very down to earth. Not necessarily commercial. The irony is that a lot of these artists ended up being wildly popular, like Willie and Waylon. And so people did find it commercial ultimately. But their idea was to break away from Nashville's concept of what was commercial. Hence, this kind of silly phrase, Outlaws, which was a phrase somebody chose to market them. It was a romantic thing. I mean, Americans always had a romance with the West from Manifest Destiny and founding of the United States. You know, we love stories about cowboys. And so these cats kind of adopted that look and that a lot of that sensibility and called themselves outlaws. But what they were rebelling against, they were not knocking over banks or whoever, or Billy the Kid or whoever, but they were knocking over record companies. SM (00:42:46): Let me change the [inaudible]. Okay. I am back. I had an interview with a very powerful Vietnam veteran, and he is actually back in school teaching at a prestigious school outside Philadelphia. And he has a picture on the back of his wall of a musician from the (19)60s who did not sell out. And because somebody wanted to buy his music, so that could be on a serial or something like that. And the basic premise of the article that he had on the back wall for students to see is that many of the (19)60s rock performers are now making lots of money on their music, but through commercial advertisements linked to corporations. So they are not living their idealism of the (19)60s now. It is all about making money. Your thoughts on that, because you have seen a lot of the rock music that is being played every day on television advertisements. MS (00:43:49): Well, there are many musicians and songwriter who have, "Sold out." I do not cast dispersion on anybody who needs to do something, or chooses to do something for money. I find it distasteful, but I cannot judge. I cannot stand in another man's shoes and tell him what to do. However, I do applaud people like Neil Young and Springsteen, by the way, who refuses to allow his music to be sold for advertisements. So there are musicians who will not. Dylan interestingly will, Neil Young Springfield will not. Others will, The Who will. Again, with some of these people, with Dylan, he does control his publishing. So he is allowing it to happen. But a lot of the musicians yet remember, do not control their song publishing anymore. I would have judge it by a case on a case by case basis, because I do not know who owns what songs. SM (00:45:08): Now, you have been a writer for- MS (00:45:12): I am sorry, Steven, I do not mean to interrupt you. But for instance, the Beatles and John, or Yoko I guess, or somebody, got a lot of when Nike began using the song Revolution- SM (00:45:26): Oh. Yes. MS (00:45:27): ...for a commercial. SM (00:45:27): Yes. MS (00:45:27): And they were saying, "How could Yoko do this," and blah, blah, blah. Well, it turned out that Michael Jackson had bought the Beatles song catalog from that period. And it was either he or his business managers who made that decision. Not Yoko Ono, not John Lennon, because he was dead. SM (00:45:48): Well, he is probably turning over in his grave if he knew about it. MS (00:45:48): Probably. SM (00:45:54): You have been a writer for a long time, looking at all the magazines that you have written for and of course you were with Linked with National Lampoon. I mentioned that your dad ran the National Lampoon? MS (00:46:09): He was the head of the company. Yeah. SM (00:46:12): Wow. How important was the National Lampoon as a magazine during that period? The influence that itself had on boomers? MS (00:46:26): Well, huge. Boomers when they were younger read Mad. But as they were coming into adulthood, they required something that was more adult, and something that was hipper, that was more risqué, that was geared for people who were not little kids anymore. And that is what the Lampoon was. The Lampoon was basically Mad magazine for grownups. Admittedly young grownups, but nonetheless grownups. SM (00:47:03): Would you put the National Lampoon and Rolling Stone as probably the Mount Rushmore of magazines that influenced the boomer generation growing up. MS (00:47:13): Well, I do not necessarily buy concepts like Mount Rushmore. I am not comfortable with the metaphor, but I would say the Rolling Stone and the National Lampoon were two of the most important magazines to pick. SM (00:47:28): You obviously have written so many pieces, even in recent years. I read some of your pieces before the interview today, the one you wrote on The Grateful Dead without Jerry. That was very well written. Are there any pieces you wrote during those years in the (19)80s when you were a younger writer that stick out more than any other, that you had really a lot of fun writing it, and doing research on it, and you got pretty good feedback on it? Are there some articles of throughout the years that have stood out above the others? MS (00:48:02): Well, in the (19)80s, the stuff that I wrote that I am fond of looking back- SM (00:48:10): Yes. MS (00:48:12): ...I wrote a column for the national anthem-anthem called Drinking Tips and Other War Stories, which basically was a monthly column about just saying yes. Meaning, that it was about my experiences with drugs and alcohol. And it was written partly because I was quite frankly fucked up through most of the 1980s. And that is what I had to write about. But it was also, I was consciously making a political statement in an era in America, got more conservative. And Nancy Reagan was pleading to asking, pleading for young people to just say no. I was screaming, "Do what you want, but I am saying yes." Whether that was responsible or not, is another story. But I enjoy doing it and I enjoy reading those pieces from that time. I do not think any of them are on the internet. SM (00:49:25): Have you ever thought of having a book done of your writings? MS (00:49:30): Oh yeah. SM (00:49:30): Just your writings? MS (00:49:31): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There will be simple. SM (00:49:35): Very good. How about anything you have written and say the last 15 years, or even for the Huffington Post, something on an article that stands out? MS (00:49:49): Well, there is all kinds of things in the way. I mean, not probably, I know I have, I have written more in the last 15 years than I wrote in the 40 years before that, 55 now. So yeah. I mean, because I was not primarily a writer before then. Most of my life, I have been a musician. You know, I wrote for the Lampoon in the (19)80s, did some writing, music, journalism in the (19)70s, very little though. I did the Lampoon stuff in the (19)80s, and then went into journalism in the mid (19)90s. And most of my writing was written between say (19)95 and now. What stuff that I liked from this period? Is that what you are asking? SM (00:50:54): Yeah. And a lot of it you have reflections back to that period of the (19)60s and (19)70s, because you wrote- MS (00:50:59): Yeah. I mean, I am still trying to figure it all out. SM (00:51:06): Yeah. How do you feel? You are younger than I am. I am seven years older than you, but how does it feel as time passes on the farther and farther we get away from that period and the older we get, we feel like a lot of the boomers when they were young, felt they never feel like that we are mortal, that we are just part of a continuation in a process of whatever, that we just happened to be living in a very unique time. Do you ever reflect on that as time passes? MS (00:51:45): Sure. Like constantly. I mean, when I say constantly, I do not mean every waking minute, but yeah, it is something that, it is some, it is definitely something I think about it. And mortality, I am sure to some degree your experience has been the same. You may have noticed that as you have gotten older, more dead people. In the last two months alone, I have lost five friends, including an ex-girlfriend, and I have a lot of dead friends. SM (00:52:23): What is amazing, I remember, I do not know if you felt the same way with your parents, but as they were getting older, they would read the obituary columns and there would be people dying that were movie stars in the thirties, and the forties, and the early fifties and everything. Now we read the news today or in the last 10, 15 years, just in the last week or so, individuals have passed on. Dennis Hopper, who we all know from Easy Writer, and all the things that he did throughout the years. Even Arthur Linkletter. Yeah. House Party. I mean, these are all people, does not matter the age, they were all influences on boomers. MS (00:53:03): A little side note footnote here. Oh. How old was I? I do not know, seven or eight or something like that. My father edited the magazine called Signature, which was the house organ of the Diner's Club, the credit card. And for the Christmas issue, one year we did a shot of my brother who was five years younger than me. Well, anyway, I do not want to confuse you. I have a brother who's five years younger, and I have a sister who is two and a half years younger, and the three of us were on the cover of Signature with Art Linkletter dressed as Santa Claus. I remember the shoot, I am the- SM (00:54:03): Oh. My gosh. MS (00:54:03): ...I am the oldest kid. So I remember spending the day with Art Linkletter. Oh. Wait, you know what? That was not Art Linkletter. That was another shoot. That was another photo. But I did do something. I was photographed as a kid for a magazine cover with Art Linkletter dressed as Santa Claus. I am confusing two different covers, and I remember spending the day with Art Linkletter around 1962, somewhere in there. SM (00:54:41): Of course, he lost his daughter, I believe, to suicide in later years. And- MS (00:54:44): She killed herself. SM (00:54:46): Yeah. And of course he lived in the (19)90s and he was always very positive. One of the things in that is happened a lot in these recent years is that politicians or individuals had a love to attack the period as the era where we began, the creation of all the problems we have in America, which is the divorce rate, the breakup of the family, the drug culture, the sexual revolution, lack of respect for authority, the beginning of all the isms. People not working as hard as they used to, all the attacks and the attacks are usually leveled against the (19)60s and the early (19)70s and the generation that grew up during that time. In fact, today you can hear it on the Huckabee Show almost on a regular basis. And whether it be Rush Limbaugh or Newt Gingrich, or even columns written by George Will, we are talking conservatives here now, but a lot of average Americans say this too. So your thoughts on the condemnation of the era and the problems that have faced America since that time. And I want to add one other point. I had data to support the fact that the African American family in the 1950s, even though there was poverty, and Dr. King, and the Civil Rights Movement, families were together in the African American community and it all changed during the (19)60s. MS (00:56:24): It is such a broad question. Books have been written about this. Again, it is hard to nutshell an issue that is as broad as this, but from my point of view, freedom has its own problems, but it is preferable over tyranny and it is preferable over a bunch of nonsensical rules that are only in place so that certain people can maintain power. I mean, there is so many issues that you reference, it is hard to give all them their just due in one sweeping, in a few sweeping sentences. But for the most part, I think what the baby boomers of the (19)60s' generation, or whatever you want to call it, what they brought to this country has ultimately been positive. I mean, when I was a little kid, there were still colored restrooms and water fountains south of the Mason Dixon line. I sat and watched- MS (00:58:03): I sat and watched, I will never forget this. Excellent. I sat and watched the news with my mother when, I guess it was (19)64, (19)65, when the march on Birmingham, Alabama, and the local cops sicced police dogs and water hoses on the nonviolent demonstrators. And all they were, were Black, mostly African Americans, some whites who were trying to desegregate the south. So nobody can tell me that we were better off then because I do not believe it. SM (00:58:44): Well, you were born in (19)55, so you really did not start really recognizing television until say, the late (19)50s, real late (19)50s. But that black and white TV set that we all had with the three channels, and occasionally there was a fourth channel. That was a local channel. You did not see very many people of color on any shows- MS (00:59:07): True. SM (00:59:08): ...In the (19)50s. I am not trying to lead the question here, but I want your response and your impact of, because even in the (19)60s, we know that this was the first war that was truly covered on television, the Vietnam War, and had a lot of influence. But in the (19)50s, the only African Americans that were on TV in the early (19)50s, the slapstick Amos and Andy Show, which was- MS (00:59:32): I remember it. SM (00:59:33): Yeah. Which is kind of a, it was- MS (00:59:34): But I remember it- SM (00:59:38): Everybody watched it, but it made them look like buffoons. And secondly, Nat King Cole had a show that lasted for maybe 12 weeks, and that was it until the early (19)60s when all of a sudden Flip Wilson had his show. Diahann Carroll was on a show on nurses. She played a nurse. MS (00:59:55): I remember that. SM (00:59:57): And then of course, I Spy with Bill Cosby. There was a fourth show, I cannot remember the fourth, but that was the beginning of it. And I am just perceiving this as a person who's not very well schooled. I am just seeing it. What are your thoughts on the television? Was television in the (19)50s masking all the problems we were having? MS (01:00:20): Well, yeah. I mean, television was, there has never been an... I should not say never, but has rarely been an honest reflection of what is really going on. It is a yes and no answer. I mean, on one hand there was less reality back then, and yet in some ways there was more truth. To say... It depends upon the show. I mean, I think, for instance, that television journalism had more integrity in that era. People like Edward R. Murrow, Walter Cronkite- SM (01:01:08): Dave Garroway. What is that? MS (01:01:11): Dave Garroway was another good one. Right. Huntley and Brinkley, people like that. You had a sense that these men were journalists and not just entertainers. And notice that I said men and not women, because there were no women. There were very, I mean there were a handful of correspondents, but there were no anchors. Another thing to note, by the way, in terms of how America has changed. SM (01:01:45): The only female correspondent I can remember was Nancy Dickerson, who was on during the Kennedy administration. MS (01:01:51): I went to school with her daughter. SM (01:01:53): Did you? Wow. She was there. And then there was one that was a UN person. I forget. There were very few. The one thing that, the reality that you mentioned too, was the McCarthy hearings were shown on TV in the early (19)50s, and that they were scary. And as a little kid, I did not understand it, but I was scared of that guy. They were scary, but they were being shown on TV. Was there a generation gap in your family? MS (01:02:22): Sure. SM (01:02:24): Explain the gap in your family. MS (01:02:26): Well, it was interesting because my parents, again, as I said earlier, my parents, they were not raving squares. They certainly were not right-wing extremists or anything. They were liberals and fairly open-minded. They had both been in the entertainment world in various capacities. My mother was a singer. My mother's boyfriend before she married my father was Charlie Parker's pianist, Al Hague. SM (01:02:54): Oh, really? MS (01:02:56): So she came up in the jazz world. She had smoked pot before I was born. And so they certainly were not squares, but when the heavy-duty hippies scene came down, they were kind of horrified. It was something that, that kind of openness and that kind of bohemianism was something that was not done in polite company, prior to the late (19)60s. SM (01:03:31): Was there any differences over the Vietnam War? MS (01:03:34): At first, yeah. Although my father, my father is still alive, and he forgets this, but he claims he was always against the war, but he actually supported the war initially. And we had screaming matches because by (19)66, (19)67, I was 11, 12 years old, I had already figured out that I was against the war, largely because people like, well, my heroes like Bob Dylan and Allen Ginsburg were against it. And I would read up on it. I decided I was against it. My parents and I would have arguments, and they would talk about the domino theory. And I would counter that, "This is a civil war in Vietnam, and that all the Vietnamese want is America to go mind its own business." But within a year or two, they were against the war. By (19)68, they were against it. SM (01:04:39): You had already said that there was some good things that came out of that generation. Now remember, this generation is 74 to 78 million. They cannot even figure out the exact number. I am sure the Census Bureau can figure it out. But- MS (01:04:52): Steven, I am sorry, which generation are you referring? SM (01:04:54): The boomer generation. MS (01:04:55): Oh, boomer. SM (01:04:56): Yeah. They were defined as anywhere between 74 and 78 million. And when I asked this question, I have had a lot of different responses as well, is can you state some strengths and weaknesses of the generation? And it is hard to talk for 74 million people, but- MS (01:05:17): Well, that was going to be my... Yeah, I am sorry. Go ahead. SM (01:05:20): The people that you knew that were boomers, it is based on your personal. MS (01:05:24): Well, my friends were hippies so I have a very, to a large degree, I have a limited point of view. My friends all had long hair, smoked dope and dog rock music and dropped acid. And we were the people our parents warned us against, as the famous saying goes. And so that is my perspective. I am the horror show that conservatives talk about to this day. SM (01:06:00): So you say your generation is nothing but strength, and- MS (01:06:04): What is that? SM (01:06:05): So you are saying there are no weaknesses within the- MS (01:06:08): No-no-no. I did not say that. But the problem is that I do not know how to generalize about a generation. I mean, you have to remember, people say, "The baby boomers." People say the (19)60s, and they think that somebody means that every young person had long hair, was at Woodstock. Well, that is not true. Most young people were fairly normal, whatever that means. I mean, they may have had longish hair and everyone loved the Beatles, and they may have smoked pot or not, but they were not raving hippies. Most young people, most boomers. I happened to be one who was. SM (01:06:54): One of the ways that the generation- MS (01:06:54): Sorry, Steven, let me just, I am sorry. Let me just finish this one thought. I did not mean to interrupt you. I am sorry. All I am saying is that to try to stereotype an entire segment, just merely, the only thing they have in common is that they were born at the same time, relatively same time. It cannot be done. They cannot be stereotyped. You know what I am saying? SM (01:07:20): Good points. Because others have said the same thing. And that is, really only between, some people have said only 15 percent of this generation ever got involved in any kind of activism. And 85 percent just went on day after day, may have been subconsciously affected, but did not really act. And then someone told me it is as low as 5 percent. So still, when you are talking about 74 to 78 million, it is a lot of people that did get involved. Your thoughts on this issue of uniqueness? A lot of the people when I was in college felt that they were the most unique generation in American history because there was this feeling, and you may have felt it amongst your peers, no matter what state they were in, that they were going to end war, bring peace, end racism, sexism, homophobia, and change the world. Well, obvious when you look at the world today, some people say, we are in worse shape than we have ever been. And who is in charge? The boomers and the up and coming generation X-ers. So just your thoughts on the uniqueness that many people felt within the generation. MS (01:08:30): Well, did I feel that? Yeah, I definitely felt that at the time. And I did believe in what Abbie Hoffman dubbed Woodstock Nation. I felt that we were going to create a new world, a world without borders based on a kind of hip communism. We were delusional, quite frankly. And also, again, to reiterate what we were talking about earlier, the people who were true believers in that philosophy, including myself, we were relatively speaking, a small percentage of the generation. We were also very loud, and a lot of us were smart, and we knew how to make noise and how to get noticed. SM (01:09:34): Would you also say that, as you say about Chris Kristofferson, a man who has been consistent from the time he was a young man to today with his music, that there is a lot of boomers that were consistent and still are in their lives? MS (01:09:54): Yes, absolutely. It is interesting. There are exceptions, but for the most part, if you look at the people in the (19)60s, and I do not know whether they were technically boomers or not, it would have to be on a case by case basis, because a lot of them were born before (19)45 or (19)46 or whatever the demarcation is. But if you look at the people who were really serious, the leaders, the ones who are still winning, they are still doing the work in one way, shape, or form or another. And I am talking about everybody from the Yippies who are still alive, a la Krassner. SM (01:10:41): Oh, he is great. MS (01:10:41): What is that? SM (01:10:41): He is great. MS (01:10:41): Yeah. Well, I think you got to me through Paul, right? SM (01:10:51): Yeah, I got to... Yeah, Paul. And Paul, man, I wish I had known him when I lived in the West Coast, because he is just a fantastic person. MS (01:10:58): Yeah, he is. SM (01:10:58): And he is an intellect. But he is also funny. MS (01:11:03): He is very, oh, he is one of the funniest men alive. And it is interesting about Paul, Paul really walked the talk. He was not just for a better world, he was for people treating each other in everyday life, he was for people treating each other decently. And it is one thing that Paul has always done is treat his fellow human beings decently. He is one of the truly nicest people I have ever known. In addition to being a great wit and thinker and political commentator and satirist. SM (01:11:48): Really good writer too. MS (01:11:49): Excellent. SM (01:11:53): One of the things too, the Peace Corps people, Peace Corps people that I have known that were in the Peace Corps have gone on with other things in their lives, and they have been consistent in most respects by carrying on that experience beyond the time when they were young. MS (01:12:06): Were you in the Peace Corps? SM (01:12:07): No, but I have interviewed a few people and that philosophy and that feeling of giving back and caring about others beyond oneself and those that are hurting, it has been carried on in their lives wherever they work. So it continues. What are your thoughts? Just basically, because the (19)60s and the (19)70s were all about movements. We had the anti-war movement and obviously the civil rights movement, which was ongoing. And then the women's movement evolved, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement- MS (01:12:37): Oh, Steven, can you hold just one second? SM (01:12:39): Yes. MS (01:12:39): I am sorry. I just have to go check something. Hold on. SM (01:12:43): Fine. I am back here with the tape now. MS (01:12:45): Sorry, man. SM (01:12:46): Oh, that is okay. I am talking about the movements. There were so many movements. On Earth Day in 1970, I know they worked with groups, the anti-war movement to make sure it was okay, that they would support the event itself. There seemed to be a lot of cooperation within the movements. Now they are being criticized as single-issue groups, rarely coming together with camaraderie. In other words, the gay and lesbians protest certain things, and they do not have the other groups there. The women's groups are the same way. Native American, earth, the environmental groups. You do not see the posters from all the groups. Are you sensing this too, that what was, in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, these movements that were very important for justice, that they were working together? Now they seem to be single issue and kind of segregated. MS (01:13:51): Well, there was something back then that does not exist now, which, there was a powerful left wing. There was a powerful left-wing political movement overall. And in the process, there was solidarity between groups and different causes. There is no left of any... I mean, to speak of. There is no left, left, I guess is the only way to put it. I mean, there is. There are a handful of commentators who are somewhat left wing, but you are talking about a period where a lot of the older people have lived through, our elders had lived through the Depression. In my family alone, there were Trotskyites and anarchists and all kinds of people who had lived through the Depression and decided that capitalism was the culprit. And there were a lot more people who gave credence to the notion of socialism back then. It does not have the kind of widespread respect that I think it once did. I mean, for crying out loud, the word liberal, which to me is almost a meaningless term, is considered a dirty word. That tells you how far this country has gone in 30 years, in my opinion. SM (01:16:04): Yeah. And it is interesting about President Obama who tries to separate himself from the boomer generation, but his critics say he is the reincarnation of the boomers, or that particular kind of- MS (01:16:19): Well, that is ridiculous. I mean, whatever you want to say about Obama, whether one likes him or does not like him, and I have very mixed feelings about him. I mean, I wish him the best, but I am not crazy about him. I am not crazy about what he has done thus far, is what I mean, although he is certainly an improvement. But that is, anyway, but- SM (01:16:42): It is like that one guy that criticized you said, the guy on exceptionalism said, "You only like the music of that particular period and will not listen to the music of today." He said, "Well, you are responsible for the George Bush." MS (01:16:59): I mean, it is so patently absurd. SM (01:17:01): Yeah. MS (01:17:01): I do not even know how to respond, which is why I did not respond to that guy, because his argument is all over the map, and I did not want to waste my time. SM (01:17:11): Two basic questions that I have asked everyone in this process, there are two issues dealing with the issue of healing and the issue of trust. The issue of healing is a simple question that I came up with students when we took them to Washington DC in the mid (19)90s and one of our leadership on the road programs. And we met with former Senator Edmund Muskie, who was the vice-presidential running mate with Humphrey at the (19)68 convention in Chicago. And the question was this, that is the boomer generation going to go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing due to all the divisions that were taking place in the United States at that time. Some say we were even close to a second civil war. The divisions between Black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against it, supported the troops and those who were against it. These students, again, had not seen or were not alive then, but they saw the riots in the (19)60s. They saw the burnings of major cities, they saw the assassinations of two major leaders in (19)68, and Tet, and the president withdraw all these things, tremendous divisions. Your thought on the boomer generation, whether this is an issue or not? MS (01:18:34): Well, I am not entirely sure what your question is. Are you... I am sorry, what? SM (01:18:40): The question is really, do you think the Civil War generation did go to its grave not healing? And the question is, there were so many divisions, and we seem to see them today in politics. They are just like they were back in the (19)60s, but they are older. Is there an issue with the boomer generation with respect to healing? I know a lot of people are not having a problem with this, but some may. MS (01:19:10): One thing I have learned as I have gotten older is that life is a process. It is not necessarily about achieving, it is not necessarily about seeing, reaching a goal, but it is about trying to reach a goal, if you understand what I am saying. And I should say, when I was young, many of my brothers and sisters in the so-called movements, we thought we were going to live to see Woodstock Nation. Well, it certainly did not happen when we thought it was going to happen. Will it ever happen? I do not know. Do I know what is going to happen before I die? I have no idea. But I know that it is important to continue to fight for what one believes. That is the only thing that matters. I do not mean it is the only thing that matters because obviously we want to achieve certain things, but whether we do or do not is not really up to us, except in so much as that we have to do the best job that we can about whatever it is that we were advocating. SM (01:20:35): Edmund Muskie basically responded by saying... He did not even respond about 1968. He said we had not healed since the Civil War in the area of race. And then he went on to talk for about 10 minutes on that issue. And let me change my [inaudible]. In terms of... Make sure this is working right here. Yes. Okay. So the healing, some people have also said, "Why do not you define this better when you ask this question, and simply say, those who supported the war and those who were against the war? Then maybe you can get some more in-depth answers instead of being so general." Because the wall was built, and I like your opinion on the wall, that was built and put up in (19)82 to heal the veterans and their families. And I know that there is still a lot of healing because I go down there every Memorial Day and Veterans Day, so they still have a long way to go. But I have often thought about the anti-war people and whether when they have come to the wall, whether they have second thoughts about their actions or would have done it all over again. So I think I am, some respects thinking more about those who were for and against the war. MS (01:21:55): Well, I mean, I was firmly in the anti-war camp. In fact, I worked, when I was a teenager, I worked for an organization in New York called the Fifth Avenue Peace Parade Committee, which was the primary anti-war group in New York during the Vietnam era. And I spent my weekends volunteering at their office. And when we would do big demonstrations, I would leaflet, go out and pamphleteer, and I almost got my ass kicked, [inaudible]. There were people who objected to some snot-nosed little hippie kid handing out anti-war leaflets. But I went to the wall in DC soon after it was built, and I was very moved by it. It is a very contemplative place, as you know. A very moving place. The thing that I think the anti-war movement gets bad rapped about is that we were the ones who were trying to end the god damn thing and keep people from dying over it. And yet, often, from various quarters, we get the rap that we were not respecting the soldiers. Well, that is not true. I think that we had more respect for the soldiers in their lives and their loved ones, we had more respect for them than the pro-war people. These kids, who by the way, were us, were cannon fodder for politicians and political motives, and there was no reason for them to die. There is no reason for these kids in Iraq and Afghanistan to be dying. SM (01:24:11): Yeah. Even the Vietnamese have stated since the war ended that they knew that the anti-war movement would mean victory for them because the United States would not have the willpower to continue if it is not popular at home in the long run. So they, the Vietnamese say that the war was won in America by those who were against the war, and so they did not go full force. And then that is, a lot of the critics have heard that, and they say, "Well, they prolonged the war, and we did not win the war because of the anti-war people." MS (01:24:56): I do not think we should have won the war. I was against us winning the war, whatever that means. I mean, we were on the wrong side. As I said earlier, my perspective has not changed from 1967. Vietnam was a civil war. It really was not even a civil war. It was a war between the Vietnamese and a puppet government created by the United States. It was geopolitical chess playing, but instead of chess pieces, it was the lives of young men. SM (01:25:46): How important were the college students in ending the war? They did a lot of protesting from (19)67 on. MS (01:25:54): How important was college students- SM (01:25:56): In terms of ending the war? What do you think was the main reason why the war ended? MS (01:26:01): The war? As much as I would love for the anti-war movement to get credit for ending the war, the truth is the war took 10 years to end. It did not end quickly. The only thing that is gone on longer is this idiocy in Afghanistan, but certainly college students and young people, a lot of them made sure that their voices were heard, and it had an effect. It definitely had an effect. SM (01:26:43): What did the Vietnam War teach you as a person? MS (01:26:54): What did it teach me as a person? Well, I mean, I guess the bottom line is it reinforced- MS (01:27:03): Well, I mean, I guess the bottom line is it reinforced my feelings that war is usually pointless. I mean, sometimes it is absolutely necessary. I am not a pacifist, but I am sorry? SM (01:27:19): No, continue. MS (01:27:27): But war for no reason or for nebulous reasons or for reason or for geopolitical power plays is immoral, in my opinion. SM (01:27:42): What did the (19)60s and (19)70s teach you? MS (01:27:48): Think for yourself. SM (01:27:50): Very good. Do you like the term boomer? MS (01:27:56): No. SM (01:27:57): If you were to define the generation from (19)46 to (19)64, what term would you use? MS (01:28:03): Young people. SM (01:28:05): Young people, very good. One of the questions, the other question besides healing, was the issue of trust. The generation has often been defined as a generation that just does not trust, and there was obvious reasons why because leaders lied to them for a long time, whether it be LBJ with the Gulf of Tonkin, or seeing Richard Nixon, Watergate. There were so many other instances during the war with McNamara on those figures that were not true about the people that had died. But you know, being a person during that time, that the boomers did not trust anyone in positions of leadership or responsibility, whether that was a university president, the vice president of student affairs, a rabbi, a priest, a corporate leader, a congressman, a senator. Anybody in a position of responsibility, they kind of frowned on him because they did not trust him. Do you agree with that? And because that was very prevalent when I was in college. And secondly is not being very trustful a negative? MS (01:29:26): I think healthy skepticism, and again, it is one of these case by case issues. You have to let your brains and your heart guide you. When I say you, I mean any sentient human. Mistrust is earned or should be earned. SM (01:30:00): Right. MS (01:30:01): And likewise, trust should be earned. I do not go around... I neither mistrust nor trust unless I know something about the person or the situation. I do not inherently mistrust or trust. And maybe, to be fair, there are certain things that perhaps I do inherently mistrust. To try and answer your question, I think I probably do inherently mistrust authority. SM (01:30:46): Well, one of the first things you learn in political science, and I was a history, political science major, is that lack of trust is very healthy in a democracy because it means dissent is allowed and it is alive and well in a democracy. Would you agree with that? MS (01:31:05): Yeah, absolutely. SM (01:31:07): So I think it is a healthy thing, even though some people... I am trying to keep my opinions out of it, but a couple other things here and then I just have some ask you to respond to some names and terms. And then we will be done. I know this might be another one of those general questions. Do you think boomers have been good parents and grandparents? And I say this only... You can only do this from the experiences that you have had with your fellow boomers, but the question I am always asking people is, has this generation ever sat down with their kids and grandkids and shared with them? MS (01:31:45): Well, again- SM (01:31:46): And do the kids – MS (01:31:47): ...such a broad question. I mean, every individual is different. I would hate to paint an entire generation with a brush this broad. SM (01:31:57): How about just the term activism? MS (01:31:59): Sorry. SM (01:31:59): How about just seeing activism, which was a very important part of many of the boomers, do you see it today a lot in others? MS (01:32:08): Do I see activism a lot? SM (01:32:10): Yeah. In young people. MS (01:32:14): [inaudible] amongst activists. SM (01:32:14): Well, no, I mean, do you see it amongst young people today and maybe in the last 20 years? MS (01:32:21): Well, I have seen it, but that is partly because I am an activist and I run in activist circles. If I did not, I am not sure that I would have witnessed it. In other words, because I am an activist, I get to meet other activists and often they are young people. SM (01:32:39): Yes. MS (01:32:40): If I was not an activist, I am not sure that I would witness a lot of activism because it is not like it was, say, in (19)69 or (19)70 where you were constantly seeing, witnessing a dissent. It is not like that anymore. In fact, there is a lot more blind acceptance of the way things are. Although it is interesting, if you read the opinion polls, these millennials or whatever they are called are actually the most progressive politically, progressive generation ever since these kinds of polls have been taken. SM (01:33:28): And they like boomers. MS (01:33:29): They do like boomers? SM (01:33:32): Yes, they do. Because since I am in higher ed, I was in higher ed for all these years, millennials link up with boomers in many ways. They want to leave a legacy. A lot of boomers, when they were young, wanted to leave a legacy. But we talked about this, ending more and bring peace to the world and all the other things. Many may not have succeeded, but they believe in that. Well, a lot of millennials believe in they want to leave a legacy too, but the difference between boomers and millennials is the time they plan to do it. Millennials want to create a legacy beginning around 40. They want to raise families, get a job, do all the things they do, but they are thinking down the road that they want to leave something for future generations. So it is just the timing more than anything else that may be different. I have got some slogans here. Actually these are three slogans that I feel define the generation slogan. Number one is, "Malcolm X by any means necessary," which symbolizes a more radical, maybe even the use of guns, violent aspect to the movement. The second one is the quote that Bobby Kennedy took from I think George Bernard Shaw, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not," which is the activist, the mentality of I want to make a difference, bring justice to the world. And then there is the more hippie mentality, which was on Peter Max posters in the early (19)70s. And I had one on my door at Ohio State, which stated, "You do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." That was kind of a hippie statement. And the only other one that people have mentioned is, "We shall overcome," which is symbolic of the Civil Rights Movement. And one other person mentioned, John Kennedy's, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Do you have any slogans that you think define the boomer generation? MS (01:35:53): Again, I do not think that the boomer generation has a singular way to define boomers. I think that what happened with the boomers is, and I know I am not necessarily answering your question because again I am hesitant to paint the entire generation with a broad brush, but what I think happened in the (19)60s basically is for a lot of reasons that could be enumerated but we do not have a whole... Again, it is something that books get written about these things. What happened was that for the first time in history... I guess it could be argued though the Renaissance, the Enlightenment maybe. But for the first time in history, certainly in recent history, meaning the last few hundred years or so, couple hundred, a Bohemian movement went mass, went viral. And you saw a Bohemian movement emerge from the shadows, emerge from the underground and become mainstream. Now, what happened in the process, interestingly enough, is that when that Bohemian movement went mainstream, partly what killed it off because it got co-opted by people whose motivation is profit, mainly Madison Avenue and people trying to sell things. SM (01:37:54): This last part of the interview is just a lot of names. You probably saw that at the bottom, but it says, " What do these events mean to you? And then just quick thoughts." Does not have to be anything in depth, but what do these events mean to you? The opening of the wall in 1982. MS (01:38:16): Oh, the Vietnam Wall, you mean? SM (01:38:18): Yes. MS (01:38:20): What does it mean to... I think it was an attempt by America to come to terms with Vietnam for once and for all, although it may not have worked that way. I think at the very least, it paid lip service or it gave respect to the [inaudible]. And there is nothing wrong with that. I mean, it was a good thing, I think. SM (01:38:51): What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? MS (01:38:56): Oh, that meant a lot to me. Kent State and Jackson State meant that law and order was more important to the establishment than us, than our lives were. We were expendable. SM (01:39:19): What does Watergate mean to you? MS (01:39:21): Just a symbol of the kind of corruption that continues in everyday politics. It is the same old shit, basically. SM (01:39:36): What does Woodstock and the Summer of Love mean to you? MS (01:39:42): It was an attempt by human beings to create a new reality. SM (01:39:49): What do the hippies mean to you? MS (01:39:51): Hippies were the largest mass Bohemian movement in history. SM (01:39:59): What do the Yippies mean to you? MS (01:40:07): Yippies were hippies who had been beaten up by cops. SM (01:40:13): How about, what does the Vietnam Veterans Against the War mean to you? MS (01:40:18): They were soldiers who had come to the realization that they had been fighting the wrong war. SM (01:40:27): And the next one is counterculture, but I think you have already discussed that. What do communes mean to you? MS (01:40:35): Again, an attempt at creating a new reality, a new way to live. SM (01:40:40): What do the Black Panthers and Black Power mean to you? MS (01:40:48): Well, the Panthers were a group of mostly young Black men and women who came together to reclaim their basic rights as Americans and human beings. SM (01:41:05): And Black Power? MS (01:41:05): Black Power was just an expression of pride in a time when Black people were still fighting for basic human rights. SM (01:41:26): What does SDS mean to you? MS (01:41:30): SDS was the first and largest group of young white Americans of that era, late (19)50s, early (19)60s, coming together and saying, "We have a vision for a different kind of America." SM (01:41:53): What does the National Organization for Women mean to you? MS (01:42:00): Same thing as the Black Panthers, but for women. SM (01:42:03): And how about the American Indian Movement? That would be the same thing. MS (01:42:06): Same thing. SM (01:42:09): Yeah. MS (01:42:09): It was a gay liberation. SM (01:42:10): Yeah. Yeah. And the same thing with Stonewall. And I think we- MS (01:42:15): Same thing. SM (01:42:16): Yeah. What does Attica mean to you? MS (01:42:24): Same. Imprisonments. These are all movements of people trying to reclaim their humanity. SM (01:42:29): What does My Lai mean to you? MS (01:42:36): My Lai was just a war crime that got noticed. SM (01:42:41): And what does Tet mean to you? MS (01:42:46): Tet represented the fact that the American military is not invincible. SM (01:42:57): And then these are just names of people, just quick responses. MS (01:42:59): Which, by the way, we are seeing repeated in Afghanistan and Iraq. Anyway. SM (01:43:04): Yeah. Please respond to these people in or terms, just quick responses. Tom Hayden. MS (01:43:17): Real smart, real committed, honorable guy. SM (01:43:22): Jane Fonda. MS (01:43:30): I think that Jane Fonda's... Well, what do you mean? Jane Fonda, the activist? Jane Fonda, the fitness? SM (01:43:40): Yeah, but the total- MS (01:43:42): There is so many Jane Fondas. SM (01:43:43): There is a new book out by Mark Lemke on Hanoi Jane. I am reading it right now. MS (01:43:48): Yeah. Yeah. SM (01:43:48): It brings up the three different aspects of her. Are you talking about the activist? Are you talking about the physical fitness guru? Or are you talking about the entertainer? MS (01:43:58): Right. Good actress. I do not know anything about aerobics, but I am sure she is a fine aerobics instructor. As far as her activist, I more or less was in solidarity with her. SM (01:44:13): John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. MS (01:44:20): Great men, very flawed. SM (01:44:24): Dwight- MS (01:44:25): Wait a second. Wait a second. But I think that I should say that about JFK. I think that Bobby, had he lived, may have changed the course of American history and may have been the greatest American president, but we will never know that. So it is just a feeling. I had great affection for Bobby. SM (01:44:44): Dwight Eisenhower. MS (01:44:48): Represents an older America that I do not have that much affection for. SM (01:44:59): LBJ and Hubert Humphrey. MS (01:45:03): Well, those are two different people. LBJ is a fascinating man, again, very, very flawed. A great man in many respects and a war criminal at the same time. Humphrey represents a kind of ineffectual, cannot do spirit in America, where I guess his heart was in the right place, but his ass was owned by the establishment. SM (01:45:47): Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. MS (01:45:49): Well, both men who saw that the war was morally wrong and spoke up. SM (01:45:57): Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X. MS (01:46:00): Again, two different men representing two different things, but both, in my opinion, great men, great human beings, great Americans. Again, I think if both had lived, they might have affected more change and accomplished more. Again, I do not know. I am just guessing, but two men I have immense immeasurable respect for. SM (01:46:38): Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford. MS (01:46:43): Well, Gerald Ford is just a joke, but Ronald Reagan is the most overrated president in the history of this country. And furthermore, he was the guy who set this country back and put it on the track back to greed and war and all the bad stuff. And I think when the history books... It always depends on who is going to write the history but in my opinion, Ronald Reagan will not be viewed as a kindly old uncle, the benevolent conservative that he is viewed as in many quarters now. I mean, really, this country started to go downhill beginning with his election. And as he is as revered as he is does not say a lot of good things about this country. SM (01:48:11): Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew. MS (01:48:14): Nixon is just a crook. He knew. What he said he was not, he was. Agnew, another liar. These guys are about power. That is what they are about. SM (01:48:35): Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. MS (01:48:37): Again, two very different men cannot really be described in the same breath. Abbie personally is one of my heroes, a brilliant man, very funny, very good writer by the way. I have always thought Abbie's writings were underrated. He had a vision for a different kind of America. But I will tell you something, most Americans are not hip enough to understand where Abbie was going. The thing is Abbie was a hipster. Abbie was like a jazz musician and trying to affect change the way a jazz musician would. And that is not ever going to work because, as I said, most human beings is not that hip. I have respect for Jerry. I do not necessarily view his late in life conversion to capitalism as some kind of betrayal or anything, but he is a complicated guy. He did a lot of good. He also was capable of really making an ass of himself. Very inconsistent man. SM (01:49:58): And I do not know if you had a chance to see the YouTube of him on the Phil Donahue Show. MS (01:50:02): Yeah, I do not know if you know, but I have been working on a documentary about the Yippies for about six years now. SM (01:50:09): I did not know that. MS (01:50:10): So we have a whole... Well, it is not finished, but we have a whole sequence about the Phil Donahue Show. I spoke to Phil Donahue about that, about Jerry's appearance on the very show that you are talking about. SM (01:50:23): And boy, Phil Donahue, for him to just sit there and take what he was taking was something. MS (01:50:29): He was trying to give Jerry the benefit of the doubt, and Jerry just kept making a fool of himself. SM (01:50:36): The Berrigan brothers and Dr. Benjamin Spock. MS (01:50:41): Great Americans, great human beings. SM (01:50:44): How about Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, some of the- MS (01:50:52): Well, again, I cannot characterize them all. They are different women, but Bella I loved. I mean, I am a New Yorker and I am a New York Jew, so I have sort of a soft spot for Bella. Loudmouth, New York feminist, beautiful, beautiful woman. Betty Friedan, visionary. Gloria, she did good stuff. But my problem with what we used to call women's liberation and what later was called feminism, is that it lost its Marxist analysis. And what I am trying to say is a lot of feminists believed that once women gained positions of power, because women were nurturers, that they would bring peace and they would bring understanding and they would bring people together. But we have seen that women... I mean, we are seeing it with this idiot, Sarah Palin now. Women can be as divisive as men. And so I think feminism, the way it has played out, has been a flawed philosophy. But I do not mean to say that I do not basically agree with feminism. I do. I also do believe that men and women are different. SM (01:52:28): How about Phyllis Schlafly? Because she is the extreme [inaudible]. MS (01:52:31): She is just a joke. SM (01:52:33): How about President Jimmy Carter and President Bill Clinton? MS (01:52:38): Again, two completely different guys. I think Clinton is a phony, never liked him. Was life better under him than under Bush? Hell yeah, but I just do not like the guy. There is something oily about him. I mean, I will never forget watching Clinton on TV before he was elected president, and I had heard or I had read that he had been called Slick Willie in Arkansas. But I did not really know why. I remember watching him give a speech before he was elected president in (19)92, and I remember sitting there thinking, "Man, this cat is slick." And that he knew how to put one over on a crowd. He knew how to manipulate a crowd. And then when the little light bulb went off over my head and I went, "Ah, that is where he got the Slick Willy came from." Obviously, politically, I am closer to Bill Clinton than I am any Republican. I just do not like the guy personally. Jimmy Carter is someone who was not a very good president, but I think he was a better president than he was portrayed as at the time. His post-presidential work has been fantastic. SM (01:54:09): How about George Bush the first and George Bush the second? MS (01:54:14): Well, boy, obviously I have no fondness for either man. But at least George the first had read more than three books. W is by far the dumbest man in my lifetime, the dumbest man to achieve that kind of power. I mean, the fact that he was President of the United States for eight years is one of the scariest realities. SM (01:54:58): How about when you talk about the Black Panthers, you already talked about them, but there is very unique personalities. There is Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, H Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael. All those six are major, major different Black Panther leaders. Any thoughts on them as a group? MS (01:55:22): As a group or as individuals? SM (01:55:24): Yeah, group or individuals. MS (01:55:26): Well, again, I do not like to characterize people. Each human being is their own human, has their own set of character traits and pluses and minuses. I think Huey was a visionary. He was clearly also, to put it mildly, a very flawed man including probably a murderer. Eldridge, very flawed, but a brilliant man. MS (01:56:01): Very flawed, but a brilliant man. Same with H Rep around Stokely. I will say this though, I do believe that all these people, all these cats were driven to extremism, madness, drug addiction, and various other maladies because of the innate, inherent racism of the country that they were born and raised. I think that they were pushed to Matt SM (01:56:39): Even- MS (01:56:41): But I have a lot of respect for the man. SM (01:56:42): Even David Horowitz, who was the head of one of the writers for Ramparts, who was a die-hard conservative now. He will even say that Eldridge Cleaver was a good writer. MS (01:56:51): Right? Horowitz is a brief- SM (01:56:54): Yeah. He was about the only one that he showed any kind respect for Daniel Ellsberg on the Pentagon Papers. MS (01:57:00): Actually, I spent a day with, a couple days with Ellsberg a few years ago in Ithaca, New York. SM (01:57:06): That is where I am from. MS (01:57:07): Oh, really? Yeah. I lived there for a few months in 2004. My sister lives there and I was staying. SM (01:57:14): The Cortland Binghamton area in Ithaca. That is my area. MS (01:57:18): Oh, very good. It is beautiful. It is beautiful up there. Yeah, those waterfalls. man. SM (01:57:24): Oh yes, but Daniel, there is a movie out. You probably saw The Most Dangerous Man in America. MS (01:57:29): I have not seen it, but Ellsberg to me is one of my, he is an American hero. What he did with the Pentagon Papers was outstanding. SM (01:57:39): Timothy Leary. MS (01:57:43): A guy I knew, a guy I knew a little bit personally, a flawed man, a brilliant man, a very charming man, a bit of a con artist. Ultimately, he is on my team, so- SM (01:58:07): Muhammad Ali and Jackie Robinson. MS (01:58:10): Well, two different, again, two different men, but both of them, great Americans, great athletes, both of them broke barriers. Ali refused to fight a war he thought was immoral and against his spiritual beliefs. Jackie Robinson broke the color line in baseball, as you know, and took a lot of shit for it, and great American. SM (01:58:40): Woodward and Bernstein. MS (01:58:45): I have complicated feelings about, particularly Bob Woodward, all the presidents’ men in their early reportage for the Washington Post concerning Watergate was extraordinary. Woodward went on to be a bit of a hack. He wrote a book about a friend of mine named John Belushi, comedian, actor, and the book was so full of errors of fact and insinuation and gossipy drug tidbits it after I read it, my respect for Bob Woodward diminished, so capable of great journalism, capable of bullshit at the same time. SM (01:59:39): How about Robert McNamara. MS (01:59:44): A mass murderer cloaked in the cloaked in respectability. SM (01:59:50): Angela Davis. MS (01:59:54): She is on my team. SM (01:59:57): Chicago Eight. MS (01:59:59): Well, again, my team. SM (02:00:03): The year 1968. MS (02:00:06): Oh boy. What do you want to know? SM (02:00:07): Just- MS (02:00:07): That is a long year. SM (02:00:09): That is why some young people who read history think we were close to a second civil war by that because of that year, and everything that preceded it. MS (02:00:18): It felt like it, but we were not. I mean, it certainly felt like- SM (02:00:25): Is there any one event? There is so many that stood out above all of them. MS (02:00:34): It is hard to say. I mean, there were the two major assassinations. First, Martin and Bobby, and then of course, the police riot at the Democratic Convention August. That was a hell of a year. SM (02:00:52): How about the weatherman? MS (02:00:57): Very-very flawed, but my team, and also I understand where they were coming from. They were trying to stop however wrong their methods were. They were trying to stop what they rightfully deemed was an immoral war. And I have great affection for Bill Ayers and [inaudible] SM (02:01:28): Earth Day and the Peace Corps. MS (02:01:31): Again, two different issues, but they both represent that streak of idealism that people my age, people from my generation and older than me too as well, they both the Peace Corps and Earth Day Embodied, that kind of useful idealism. SM (02:02:03): Barry Goldwater and William Buckley. MS (02:02:06): Again, two different guys. I hated Goldwater, but I came to respect him as he got older. He seemed to, these modern-day conservatives make Goldwater look like a commonsensical guy. Buckley, I think he was a racist from what I have read. I think that obviously his politics were different than mine, to put it mildly, but I will tell you something. They were a lot of interesting people back then, and he was one of them, very smart man. I actually interviewed him once for something, and he was very helpful. He was very nice. He was very polite, very pleasant, and I liked him personally. SM (02:03:10): How about John Dean? MS (02:03:11): Well, I think that John Dean was a man who grew up in public, in a sense. I do not mean, grew up from childhood, but he started at Point A and ended up somewhere else. He clearly had an epiphany that he was involved in something that was immoral and went public with it. SM (02:03:49): I am almost, the free speech movement and the Little Rock Nine. MS (02:03:53): Okay. Again, two different things, but I guess there are similarities. The Little Rock Nine, you are talking about the kids going to school? Yes. Okay. Well, obviously that was the beginning of one of the seminal events of the Civil Rights movement, and to think of these kids being at the forefront of any of a human rights movement at all. It is kind of mind blowing. It is young people that is sort of galling about mean young people today is that perennially historic, but young people have always been at the vanguard of political movements, and it is particularly any revolutionary political change, because they have the energy and the enthusiasm and often the blind foolishness to go out and do things that older people are too old to do. Well, it was the Little Rock. SM (02:05:02): The Free Speech movement. MS (02:05:03): Free speech. Well, free speech Movement was one of the things that kick started in 1960s as we know it. SM (02:05:13): And I have down here also the U2 and the Cuban Missile Crisis. MS (02:05:19): Okay. Francis Gary Powers. SM (02:05:23): First time I saw President Lie to the American Public on TV. MS (02:05:26): That was approximately what I was going to say? One of the first indications that America was not the flawless place that they told us it was U2. What was the other one? SM (02:05:41): The Cuban Missile Crisis. MS (02:05:45): Cuban Missile Crisis. Interesting. That was the first time I realized, one of the first times I realized that we could all die in a nuclear holocaust. My parents were in Florida, and that happened, and I will never forget them, my mother calling us back in New York City and her crying, are you your kids? Okay? You are all right. I think my grandmother was taking care of us. Well, my parents were away, and I realized what this was. Well, I was only seven, I guess it was actually two. I realized that I realized the gravity of the situation, and I used to have dreams. I used to have dreams of the world ending in the nuclear Holocaust. SM (02:06:48): Did you think your mom and dad might not come home? MS (02:06:51): I was wondering whether anyone was going to survive, whether we are all going to die. I will tell you something. I will tell something in the story. An interesting story when I was in was Ithaca once having dinner at my sisters, and they had some friends over, my sister is two and a half years younger than me. Her husband is about 3, 4, 4 years younger than me. There were friends, one of whom was a college professor at Cornell, was about five years younger than me, and they were having to talk about politics in general and history and different things. So I was the oldest person at the dinner table, and I went around the table and I said, so let me ask everybody this. I am curious. I said, did anybody at this table ever really believe that the human race could perish in a nuclear attack? And every single one of them all were younger than me said, no, and I realized that that is the difference. Before you said that there were early boomers and late Yes. I think that is the difference between the early boomers and the late boomers. The first decade, the (19)46 through (19)56, is that what you said? I mean, I am generalizing here, but these are all generalizations, but I think we were the ones who really understood what was at stake. I do not think that the kids younger than us had the same kind of tears. SM (02:08:46): President Obama is a boomer. MS (02:08:49): What year was he born? SM (02:08:50): He was born in (19)60. Well, he was two I think, so that would make him, he is 49 now, so I do not, that would make, well, 49, and he was just like a baby, but he is still a boomer. Right. For the terms McCarthy hearings, I already mentioned them, but what makes them important in the early (19)50s is the red diaper babies and the way they treated and the scary, the people that were communists, and it was a scary kind of a personality there that later years. Did you ever think about that man and what he did? MS (02:09:28): Sure-sure. My father, well, not a communist, was a liberal Democrat and was horrified by McCarthyism and would actually, he edited a magazine, as I told you earlier, called Signature in the (19)50s and (19)60s. Actually. It was originally called the Diners Club Magazine, and then he changed the name to Signature, but he hired writers who had been blacklisted, so he gave work to blacklisted writers, including Ian Hunter, who had won Academy Awards as a screenwriter. SM (02:10:16): Wow. The last one here is just Walt Disney, Howdy Doody, Hopalong Cassidy. It was just (19)50s television at it is finest. Hopalong was a little bit before you, Howdy Doody, went up to 1961 and Walt Disney as well. That is his, that is history right there. That is (19)50s television. MS (02:10:40): I remember Hat Duty, and I really remember Disney. SM (02:10:45): Right. MS (02:10:45): I was a huge Disney fan when I was a little kid. What does it mean to me now? Very little. It is mildly nostalgic, but it has no substance, substantive meaning to me. 2010. SM (02:11:00): You have, I wanted to ask you about your band, because, we have been talking about your journalism, your responses to questions around the generation. You talked about Kris Kristofferson, but I would like to know a little bit about your group, your band, what they are doing, and how you have been able to survive as a band all these years. MS (02:11:23): Well, first of all, I have had many bands. I mean, the most famous one was SlewFoot, but even SlewFoot. SM (02:11:31): That is what I am talking about. MS (02:11:32): Right. We broke up in 1978 or so yeah (19)78. Yeah, we broke up in 1978. SM (02:11:43): Well, what was it like being in that group those years? Because you were playing to the Boomers, what was it, does it feel different performing to the Boomer generation than it does to performing today? I do not know how you would say it, but- MS (02:12:05): Well, I do not have to, not that it is anyone's fault, per se, but people my age grew up more or less on the same music I did, so I did not to, I never had to explain things to them. Whereas younger people, a lot of my music is new to them. Not through any fault of their own, just they simply have not been exposed to it. Although, I mean, young people, some of them have good musical taste. I am not sure I know how to answer that question. SM (02:12:49): Yeah, just whether there was more of a, we call it excitement or energy within the audiences then, as opposed to now, in terms of- MS (02:12:58): I do not know. I think there is probably still energy. I just do not think the music has the same kind of quality or edge, but- SM (02:13:06): What do you think of, well you probably cannot say this either, but when the last Boomer has passed on that they do this over at the Gettysburg Battlefield, when the last survivor of the Civil War died in 1924, they have a statute form over there, but when the last maybe 50, 75 years from now, when the best history books and sociology books are written or books on the era of, what do you think they will say about this generation of young people, all young people in this case, because we are talking about those 74 to 78 million who were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and they will define them in many respects based on the time they lived. What do you think they will say about this group? MS (02:13:51): I do not think that they are going to talk about the Boomers per se, but that whole concept of baby boomers is a sociological construct. It has no bar. It has very little bearing on history. What is important is that a sizeable subset of what is called the baby boomers made a valiant attempt to turn history around, and in many respects, succeeded. That, in my opinion, is going to be in the history books forever. It is going to be looked on. I firmly believe that the 1960s and early (19)70s are going to be looked on as a kind of renaissance in human history. SM (02:14:43): Do you have any anecdotes or stories you would like maybe to mention one or two, just like the story about being with Kris Kristofferson, are there any other stories that could be educational for others? Like you mentioned John Beluchi, you knew him personally, but when Woodward wrote that book, it was full of mistakes. I did not know you knew him. Were there any other people in your music world that you worked closely with? Any stories would you like to share? MS (02:15:16): Well, there is many stories. I am not sure what you are looking for exactly. SM (02:15:22): Well I am looking, you had a purpose in writing about Kris Kris- well, being interviewed and saying things about Kris Kristofferson, what his music meant, and what he symbolized, that he was kind of symbolic of the (19)60s, and he was consistent through his life. Are there any other personalities or groups that have educational lessons based on your experiences with them? MS (02:15:53): Well, based on my personal experience? SM (02:15:55): Yes. Based on your personal experiences, just like your personal experiences with Kris Kristofferson. MS (02:16:01): I have to think about, I do not know if, I do not think that I have an answer for your question off the top of my head trying to think about it. SM (02:16:08): That is all right. MS (02:16:09): I am Sorry. SM (02:16:10): That is okay. MS (02:16:11): Yeah, do not know. I mean, lots of famous musicians, not only from my time as a musician myself, but also as a journalist. I have gotten to meet many of my teenage heroes. SM (02:16:31): Who are some of them? MS (02:16:34): Oh, well, I mean, for instance, a couple weeks ago I was hanging out with Jim Kelner, who is a drummer. He used to play with John Lennon and George Harrison and Dylan, but he would, I do not know if you would know who he is, but I am trying to think of who you would know. Who have I gotten to know? Last night I was hanging out with Don Was, who has been the Rolling Stones producer for the last 20 years. I am trying to think of who you would know. SM (02:17:06): Where are you based now? Los Angeles, or is it San Francisco? MS (02:17:10): LA. I live in LA. SM (02:17:10): Okay. MS (02:17:14): I should say I sleep in LA, but I live in New York, meaning that my heart is in New York, but my bed is in LA. SM (02:17:22): Okay. Very good. Are there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to? MS (02:17:28): No, I was not really sure what you were going to ask. In fact, no, I do not. Nothing that I can think of. SM (02:17:38): Well, that is it then. MS (02:17:40): Well, Steven, thank you. SM (02:17:41): Thanks for going over the hour and a half too. I really appreciate that. Eventually, I am going to need a good couple of quality pictures of you to be sent to me. MS (02:17:52): Okay. SM (02:17:52): But I will be emailing you on that. MS (02:17:54): Okay. SM (02:17:54): And a little more updates. I am finishing my interviews as of the end of the first week of Labor Day weekend. I am going to interview Kathleen Cleaver. She is my last interview. MS (02:18:06): Oh, okay. SM (02:18:07): And I have been told I got to stop the interviews because I have, I will have about 200 then, and that is a lot of interviews. And then I am going to be spending nothing but four solid months in hibernation, transcribing it myself. I have got the equipment. I am already, and I want to do it myself because people have told me the mistakes have been made when they hand them to other people, and then they end up having to do it themselves anyways. And then I will send you a copy of the transcript, and so you will be able to see it. And at the same time, there will be a form to sign so that I can use your interview in my book, and I will be sending that out to everybody. People said, well, you are put Mark, you should have handed this out to everybody before you even started this press, but they will see the transcript and we will go from there. MS (02:18:51): Okay. SM (02:18:53): And I really want to thank you. MS (02:18:53): You are welcome. Thank you. Who is publishing? SM (02:18:59): Well right now? Syracuse University Press is very interested. I have not, have not been going, I have been only going to university presses. I have not been doing anything with, I have not made no contact with major presses. And so as I get closer to Labor Day weekend, I have been told that this book needs to go out to more people. The University press books do not reach very many people. Syracuse University Press, I think is the one that is going to do it, but there is some issues there right now, and because of the economy, we all about the economy, and so some university presses are limited in the number of books they do on an annual basis. Now, they did not use to limit themselves, so it is not definite yet who the printer is, but I have a couple professors I am working with on this and go from there. MS (02:19:50): Okay. Well, best of luck. Keep me posted and thanks, man. SM (02:19:56): Yeah, thank you, Michael. Have a great day, and keep writing those articles. I will be reading your articles now all the time. MS (02:20:02): Thank you, Steven. SM (02:20:02): Yeah, have a good one. MS (02:20:09): Oh, wait a second. Let me ask you something. Yes. Before I, do I have your phone number? SM (02:20:10): My phone number is six one zero. MS (02:20:12): Hold on one second. SM (02:20:16): And I have a tape machine here all the time. Yeah. Six one zero. MS (02:20:19): Where are you, by the way? SM (02:20:21): Oh, I am, I am in Westchester, Pennsylvania. Just outside Philadelphia. MS (02:20:25): Steven. Oh, is it 4 3 6 9 3 6 4? SM (02:20:30): Yes. 6 1 0 4 3 6 9 3 6 4. MS (02:20:33): All right. Very good. Alright Steven, thanks so much. SM (02:20:36): One other thing. Yeah. Do you know Kris Kristofferson real well? MS (02:20:41): I know him. SM (02:20:42): Boy would I love to interview him. MS (02:20:46): You would have to go through his publicist and I do not even remember. SM (02:20:53): You email me that information if and I will. MS (02:20:56): I do not know what his public, you know what, I will email you. I do not, I am trying to think the best way to do this. I will email you somebody. You know what the thing is that I really do not have the, I do not have the, it is really not my- SM (02:21:24): I can go right to his website too. MS (02:21:26): Yeah. That is really the best way. SM (02:21:28): Do you know if he lives in LA or does he live in Burlingame? MS (02:21:32): Burlingame. SM (02:21:34): That is where his hometown is. MS (02:21:37): Burlingame. SM (02:21:37): California in- MS (02:21:38): San, well, actually he was born in Texas. SM (02:21:41): Yeah, but he went to Burlingame High School. MS (02:21:43): Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think his family moved to California later, but anyway. SM (02:21:54): Okay. MS (02:21:54): From what I know, and I do not know everything, obviously he splits his time between Malibu and LA and Hawaii. SM (02:22:05): Well, that is nice. MS (02:22:05): Yeah. No kidding. SM (02:22:09): All right, Michael. Thanks a lot. Have a great day. MS (02:22:12): You too. SM (02:22:12): Bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Simmons Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Simmons, Michael ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Simmons, Michael--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.114a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.114b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 142:16 Description An account of the resource <span>Musician, writer, filmmaker and activist Michael Simmons was dubbed “The Father Of Country Punk” by <i>Creem</i> magazine in the 1970s. He was an editor of the <i>National Lampoon</i> in the ’80s where he wrote the popular column “Drinking Tips And Other War Stories” and won an LA Press Club Award in the ’90s for his investigative journalism for the <i>LA Weekly</i>. He has written for <i>MOJO</i>, <i>Rolling Stone</i>, <i>Penthouse</i>, </span><span><i>LA Weekly</i></span><span>, </span><span><i>The New York Times</i>, <i>LA Times</i>, <i>High Times</i>, <i>Artillery</i>, <i>CounterPunch</i>, <i>The Rag Blog</i>, <i>The Progressive</i> and <i>Dangerous Minds</i> and has scribed liner notes for Bob Dylan, Michael Bloomfield, Phil Ochs, Kris Kristofferson, Mose Allison, Kinky Friedman, </span><span>Arthur Lee & Love</span><span> </span><span>and Paul Krassner</span><span>. He wrote and co-produced the documentary <i>The Real Rocky</i> about boxer Chuck Wepner.</span> https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/753dc953383c2071f455c2a16802a0e8.jpg 6d2b4459676c295482e0a2f5e6c6bed9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d3f6cb215188b88dbd5f2556c0b70aee.mp3 83a5d98ed0b7c8487deb28f018d9a939 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-09-10 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Marvin Surkin Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Marvin Surkin is a scholar, author, and specialist in comparative urban politics and social change. He worked at the center of the League of Revolutionary Black Workers in Detroit. Dr. Surkin is the author of Detroit: I Do Mind Dying: A Study in Urban Revolution. He received his Ph.D. in Political Science from New York University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7043,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Marvin Surkin is a scholar, author, and specialist in comparative urban politics and social change. He worked at the center of the League of Revolutionary Black Workers in Detroit. Dr. Surkin is the author of <em>Detroit: I Do Mind Dying: A Study in Urban Revolution</em>. He received his Ph.D. in Political Science from New York University.</span> Digital Publisher BInghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; TV in the Nineteen fifties; Segregation; \nCivil Rights Movement; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Summer of Love."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":515,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,11791078],"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; TV in the Nineteen fifties; Segregation; Civil Rights Movement; Vietnam Memorial; Kent State; Jackson State; Watergate; Summer of Love; Dwight D. Eisenhower; Republicans; Vietnam War; Detroit Riots; Dr. Martin Luther King; Black Power movement; Detroit in 1960s; Black Manifesto<br /></span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 106:59 Subject LCSH Scholars; Authors; Social change; Metropolitan government; Surkin, Marvin--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Marvin Surkin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Surkin, Marvin ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Scholars; Authors; Social change; Metropolitan government; Surkin, Marvin--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Marvin Surkin is a scholar, author, and specialist in comparative urban politics and social change. He worked at the center of the League of Revolutionary Black Workers in Detroit. Dr. Surkin is the author of <em>Detroit: I Do Mind Dying: A Study in Urban Revolution</em>. He received his Ph.D. in Political Science from New York University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-09-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.115 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 106:59 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ab52f3d3537f62afbc56dd07e85d4279.jpg b6b9a04e9ede7b5b9f66bc6e11a78efc https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa3f8e9cce21515954c8ba249d4ac772.mp3 ccd05cd64cb90bcf4c65173fa74c9781 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-06-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Hue-Tam Ho Tai, 1948- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Hue-Tam Ho Tai is a professor of Sino-Vietnamese History at Harvard University. Her research focuses on the social and cultural history of modern Vietnam. Dr. Tai is the author of Passion, Betrayal, and Revolution in Colonial Saigon: The Memoirs of Bao Luong, Radicalism and the Origins of the Vietnamese Revolution, and Millenarianism and Peasant Politics in Vietnam."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6915,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,3355443],"15":"\"Arial\",sans-serif"}">Dr. Hue Tam Ho Tai is a professor of Sino-Vietnamese History at Harvard University. Her research focuses on the social and cultural history of modern Vietnam. Dr. Tai is the author of <em>Passion, Betrayal, and Revolution in Colonial Saigon: The Memoirs of Bao Luong</em>, <em>Radicalism and the Origins of the Vietnamese Revolution</em>, and <em>Millenarianism and Peasant Politics in Vietnam</em>.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"College campuses; Brandeis University; 1968 Olympics; Vietnam War; Harvard University;Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Social Revolution; North Vietnamese;"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">College campuses; Brandeis University; 1968 Olympics; Vietnam War; Harvard University; Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Social Revolution; North Vietnamese.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 92:07 Subject LCSH Vietnam—History—20th century; College teachers; Harvard University; Tai, Hue-Tam Ho, 1948--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Hue Tam Ho Tai Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tai, Hue-Tam Ho, 1948- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam—History—20th century; College teachers; Harvard University; Tai, Hue-Tam Ho, 1948--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Hue-Tam Ho Tai is a professor of Sino-Vietnamese History at Harvard University. Her research focuses on the social and cultural history of modern Vietnam. Dr. Tai is the author of <em>Passion, Betrayal, and Revolution in Colonial Saigon: The Memoirs of Bao Luong</em>, <em>Radicalism and the Origins of the Vietnamese Revolution</em>, and <em>Millenarianism and Peasant Politics in Vietnam</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.116 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 92:07 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c9c0d40036b678d32dad60d2f9a59089.jpg 2320bb017dc38600ace3196f9e04ea9e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/30f6e2e5d09aff5bc84f779de2e62cb3.mp3 8567c1f0459af79c352ba82a8e66e80c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2004-08-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Thi Dieu Nguyen, 1951- Language English Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Dieu T. Nguyen grew up in An Giang during the Vietnam War, is a professor of History at Temple University and a writer. Dr. Nguyen completed her undergraduate and graduate studies at the Sorbonne and the University of Aix-en-Provence. She is the author of The Mekong River and The Struggle for Indochina: Water, War, and Peace."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7051,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,5099745],"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Dieu T. Nguyen grew up in An Giang during the Vietnam War, and is a writer and professor of History at Temple University. Dr. Nguyen completed her undergraduate and graduate studies at the Sorbonne and the University of Aix-en-Provence. She is the author of <em>The Mekong River</em> and <em>The Struggle for Indochina: Water, War, and Peace</em>.</span> Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 70:38 Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; French War (Vietnam V. France); American veterans; Baby boom generation; Anti-war movement; Civil Rights Movement; Robert McNamara; James Fonda; Lynden Johnson"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5009,"3":{"1":0},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Vietnam War; French War (Vietnam V. France); American veterans; Baby boom generation; Anti-war movement; Civil Rights Movement; Robert McNamara; Jane Fonda; Lyndon Johnson.</span> Subject LCSH College teachers; Temple University. Department of History; Nguyen, Thi Dieu, 1951--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Dieu T. Nguyen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nguyen, Thi Dieu, 1951- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; Temple University. Department of History; Nguyen, Thi Dieu, 1951--Interviews Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-08-26 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.117 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 70:38 Description An account of the resource Dr. Dieu T. Nguyen grew up in An Giang during the Vietnam War, and is a writer and professor of History at Temple University. Dr. Nguyen completed her undergraduate and graduate studies at the Sorbonne and the University of Aix-en-Provence. She is the author of <em>The Mekong River</em> and <em>The Struggle for Indochina: Water, War, and Peace</em>.