34 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d5c72d9d541f5973b0d3b756e0688c8c.mp3 53c12e7263995f5d71510a394c025345 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-03-19 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Reverend Canon Claudia Wilson Year of Graduation 1965 Biographical Text Reverend Claudia is a semi-retired priest at St. John’s Episcopal Church in Yonkers. Before her ordination into the priesthood, she worked in publishing. At Harpur College, she was the first woman elected head of SDC (Students for Democratic Change), the progressive student government. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Student Associations, Students for Democratic Change; Harpur College – Alumni in the Episcopal Church; Harpur College – Alumni in Publishing; Harpur College – Alumni living in Yonkers, NY Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Student Associations, Students for Democratic Change; Harpur College – Alumni in the Episcopal Church; Harpur College – Alumni in Publishing; Harpur College – Alumni living in Yonkers, NY Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Claudia Wilson Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 19 March 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay [inaudible] CW: 00:03 My name is Claudia Wilson. I graduated from Harpur College in 1965 I am going to be 74 on July 12. I am currently a retired- I am a priest in the Episcopal Diocese of New York. I retired from active ministry, but I am a priest associate on a voluntary basis at St John's Church in Yonkers. IG: 00:26 Okay, so and we are currently interviewing you for the oral history project. CW: 00:37 Yes. IG: 00:37 Okay, so, tell us where you grew up. CW: 00:42 I was born and raised in the Bronx, and was my family was still living in the Bronx when I was a student at Harpur and um, I- after-after school, Terry, then [inaudible] now sailor, who was also an alum, and I rented an apartment in Manhattan, and I went to work in the book publishing business. After two years, I took a year off and got a master's degree in English from the University of from Toronto, University of Toronto in Canada. Came back and I had essentially a 23-year career in the book publishing business, mostly in college textbooks. Finished up with 11 years at Harper and Roe, now Harper Collins. And then I decided, I think partly because I never went into the Peace Corps or any of those things, that I would do some good work. And I went became the volunteer coordinator at God's Love We Deliver, which was doing people with AIDS. And then I felt a call to the diaconate in the Episcopal Church, and I went to work for an Episcopal Church for two years as their parish administrator of St John's in the village. That was in 1990 to 1992 which was a very interesting experience. I continued to volunteer for God's Love We Deliver. And of course, this was at the height of the AIDS crisis, and village was the epicenter. And I delivered, delivered meals to at that time men with AIDS during my lunch hour. And that was quite an, quite an experience, I have to say. And then after, in 1992 I was ordained to the diaconate, and I was a deacon at my church, which was sending nations of Antioch on West End Avenue in Manhattan for two years. And then I had moved to Riverdale from Manhattan, and I came to St John's Church here in Yonkers as Deacon. I was Deacon here for 12 years. I was also as soon as I was ordained on the staff of the Episcopal Diocese of New York. And then after a while, after 10 years as a deacon, discerned a call, a change in vocation to the priesthood, and I went to Seabury, Western seminary. IG: 01:56 When was that? CW: 01:56 That was in 1990 to 1992 which was a very interesting experience. I continued to volunteer for God's Love We Deliver. And of course, this was at the height of the AIDS crisis, and village was the epicenter. And I delivered, delivered meals to at that time men with AIDS during my lunch hour. And that was quite a, quite an experience, I have to say. And then after, in 1992 I was ordained to the diaconate, and I was a deacon at my church, which was sending nations of Antioch on West End Avenue in Manhattan for two years. And then I had moved to Riverdale from Manhattan, and I came to St John's Church here in Yonkers as Deacon. I was Deacon here for 12 years. I was also as soon as I was ordained on the staff of the Episcopal Diocese of New York. And then after a while, after 10 years as a deacon, discerned a call, a change in vocation to the priesthood, and I went to Seabury, Western seminary. IG: 03:03 Which is where? CW: 03:04 Evanston. Evanston, Illinois, just outside of Chicago. I was 60 years old when I went to seminary. IG: 03:04 Wonderful-wonderful. CW: 03:10 Very interesting too. It is a totally different educational experience to go to college in the (19)60s and seminary in the in the 2000s let me tell you, was wonderful. Anyway, after two years, I was ordained to the priesthood. I was priest on a halftime basis in a church, church of the Holy Communion in May, a pack and continued to work. IG: 03:31 I know where that there's a Russian Orthodox convent. CW: 03:34 Yes, right across the street from my church. IG: 03:36 Wonderful, what a coincidence. CW: 03:39 Yes. Anyway, I was half time at Holy Communion, and half time working for the diocese as a camp for congregational development. And then in in 2016 I became 72 and the rules of the church said, church pension fund always say, you have to retire from the pension fund collect a pension. But if you are a priest in charge of a congregation, you must leave that congregation at 72 and I had already been working for 50 plus years by that time, and I just decided to retire. So, I retired, but I came and I lived 10 minutes from St John's Getty square, came back here. Knew the priest in charge. He was somebody I knew from the Cathedral of St John the Divine, and so I am now priest associate here. So, in a nutshell, that is my 50 years of working after school. IG: 04:29 Thank you, thank you for that very succinct synopsis of a long career. CW: 04:36 Yes. IG: 04:37 A very diverse career. CW: 04:39 Yes, I feel like I have had I have been very fortunate. Many people do not find like do not are not able to find one thing they like to do. And I had two distinct careers of things that I really loved. So, I feel very fortunate in that way, IG: 04:53 And you are still doing it. CW: 04:53 Yeah, I am still doing it. Yes. Right. IG: 05:01 Engaged. So, let us return to a deeper past, which is your childhood and upbringing, and tell us a little bit about your parents and where you told us the Bronx and your upbringing and whether they went to college, if they encouraged you to pursue your education? CW: 05:25 Yes-yes. My mother was from Louisville, Kentucky, and my mother did graduate from college. She went to Miami University in Ohio. She was a social worker before she got married. My father was in the New York City Police Department for 32 years and retired as a captain in 1968 they met because my father, early in his police career, was in the emergency squad, and my uncle by marriage, my mother's brother-in-law, was also in the same squad, and fixed my mother and my father up for a date, when my mother came to New York to visit her sister. My father did not go to college. His parents, they just could not afford it. Even-even going to City University, which would have been free, they needed his income. So, which is unfortunate, because my father was a very-very bright man, really, very intelligent man, lover, great lover of music. Great opera fan, very good with languages. When I was in high school, I took Spanish, and my father used to coach me on my on my Spanish homework he had gotten. My father went to Stuyvesant. He got the Spanish medal every year he was in Stuyvesant. And even then, 40 years later, he remembered it. Do you know, he really just had that gift, you know? IG: 06:43 Well, he also probably had occasion to use it, living in New York. CW: 06:45 Yes-yes, no, Bronx. I think you know; you have to understand that when I was growing up in the Bronx, the neighborhood that I, that we lived in- IG: 06:49 It was very different. CW: 06:55 -was product was white. IG: 06:57 Yes. CW: 06:58 It was predominantly Roman Catholic with a significant Jewish population. In fact, when I went to elementary school, these were the days that they did not close the schools on the Jewish holidays. And literally, I was the only girl in my fifth-grade class. And there would be a handful of us in the whole school. So it was, which was good, I think, because I kind of grew up, unlike a lot of white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants, not feeling like I ruled the world, if you know what I mean. And I had, you know, most of my friends were either Roman Catholic or Jewish, and I went to a Presbyterian Church, which was about the only time I came into contact with other students. So, you know, so it was, it was in we lived in University Heights, and at that point, NYU uptown, which is where Bronx Community College is now, it is just down the block from us. And the Presbyterian Church I went to had been founded by-by NYU faculty members back in 1901 so I was very fortunate. I mean, I went to public school in the Bronx, and I went to-to Junior, what was then Junior High in the Bronx, but I went to high school at Hunter College, high school in Manhattan, which changed my life, really. I mean, in a way, first of all, you know, I got out of the Bronx, in a sense. But also, I think Hunter, the work we did at Hunter, really prepared me for Harpur, in a way that I know I saw a lot of my classmates who came from smaller, consolidated schools in upstate New York, you know, where they wrote essays about what I did my summer vacation, and then he got, they got, you know, to Harpur, and they were asked to write an essay about Dante's Inferno. We had sort of been doing that kind of thing all the time, and I had, I had gotten some AP credits in English and history. So, I think Hunter was a very-very significant- IG: 09:02 I know, friends who have gone. CW: 09:04 Yes, exactly. And, of course, you know, one is proud of the fact that Supreme Court Justice went to your high school. And various other people, and also people I knew at Harpur, Deborah Tannen, who's the link. IG: 09:04 Of course. CW: 09:19 She-she was a year behind me at Hunter, at Hunter and Harpur, so I knew her. IG: 09:23 How interesting. CW: 09:25 Yes-yes. So then, you know, so I think the time that I went to Harpur, there were a lot of kids there who could have gone to an Ivy, Ivy League school, but, you know, maybe did not qualify for a scholarship, and certainly parents could not afford it. I had my best friend in high school went to Cornell, and we were shocked that it was going to cost her $2,000 a year, you know, because people did not have that kind of money, you know. So-so I think that also made Harpur a kind of unique experience at the time that, you know, there were a lot of people there. Who were very bright, very bright, you know, and could have been in other places, but you know- IG: 10:06 How did you choose? how did you end up choosing Harpur? CW: 10:09 My father, who did not go to college, was very firm that I should go away to school, because he said to me that if you stay home, it is just going to be like an extension of high school. And quite frankly, you know, my policemen did not make much money in those days, not that we were, I mean, I never considered us poor, but we certainly, you know, could not have afforded $2,000 a year, you know, at Cornell so Binghamton Harpur offered, you know, a really good education. And, I mean, I think my, I think, was like $500 a year or something like that. And so, it was well within, you know, our means, IG: 10:49 and you probably got a Regents scholarship. Do you remember? CW: 10:52 I do not remember. I do not remember, to tell you the truth, but I probably did, I do not remember, I really do not remember, you know. And of course, it was, it was away, but close enough, you know, although, of course, you know, it is thinking back on it now, you know, we did not have cell phones and we did not have the internet, and, you know, I called my parents once a week on Sunday. You know, my mother and I wrote letters to each other, letters in envelopes and stamps. Nobody does that anymore, but that was the way, you know. So, in a way, it was good, especially if I am an only child. I think it was good for me because I really had to be on my own, so to speak, you know. And I think my father was absolutely right, you know, that it was good for me to-to get away and, you know, be on my own, because I was very spoiled. But, you know, managed. Okay. IG: 11:40 Did you have an idea of what you wanted to accomplish at Harpur? Did you know- CW: 11:45 I think in those days, one was not quite as fixated on education as the means to a job did you know? IG: 11:54 Yes. CW: 11:54 I mean, I graduated with a degree in humanities, you know, with English literature, and I went, you know, and I interviewed at like, five or six publishing companies. I mean, yes, they were, you know, jobs as secretaries. That is how you started in publishing. But they were there, you know. I mean, I- it was very different time in terms of the in terms of the opportunities that were available to people, especially people with liberal arts degrees. You know, I mean, I do not know what I would do now, you know- IG: 12:24 [crosstalk] time when you could actually aspire, you know, to any right profession, to any [crosstalk] CW: 12:31 I mean, I went into publishing because I had been an English major, and it just seemed like the natural thing to do. And my friend, Terry, whom I roomed with, was going to library school, she became a librarian, as a matter of fact, and wound up, ultimately- IG: 12:45 What is her last name? CW: 12:46 Now, Shorttail, she became, eventually, she went to work for the Public Library system in New York, and then eventually, when her husband worked for the New York Times in Washington, and they moved into Maryland, and she went and became, I think she, she became a librarian at University of Maryland, Baltimore campus, the one that, you know, the, I think it is the place that that just won that big, you know, NCAA title, or whatever. But anyway, she became a librarian, [crosstalk] we could do that. I mean, you know, my salary was like $85 a week. I took the job because it was $85 not $75 that everybody else was offering. And I do not know, I do not remember what she was making. She was working part time as a librarian, and but, you know, I mean, we paid $200 a month for a furnished apartment in Chelsea, which was not this fancy then as it is now. And, you know, we ate at home a lot, and we saved up enough money we gave a big party the first Christmas, we were, it was Christmas of (19)66 not (19)65, Christmas of (19)66. We had enough money saved up that we could, you know, kids cannot do that these days. You know, they are living in their parents’ basements. So we were, I think we were very fortunate. IG: 14:00 Yeah, it is a different world. So, you know, in publishing, you worked as an um- CW: 14:08 I work for the I started out at the McMillan company as assistant in the permissions department, and then I moved to the contracts department, and then I moved to the school book department as a kind of production editor assistant. Then I then that was, went right after that, but I took off the year and got a master's degree in at University of Toronto, came back and went to work for-for the Prentice Hall. IG: 14:36 And as-as what? CW: 14:38 As a production editor, you know. IG: 14:38 As a production editor. CW: 14:40 Yeah, right. IG: 14:41 I know exactly what that is. CW: 14:42 Oh, you do, okay, yes, words and I became the Prentice Hall at the time, did this series of books called spectrum books. You probably had them. You probably, well, maybe not, but they were paperbacks that were like supplement, supplementary text, you might say. So, we had like 20th century views, which was 20th century views of major authors, and [crosstalk] and we had a series on film, and a whole bunch of series, and I eventually became the sort of managing editor for the production editing department for for that. And then- IG: 15:17 Interesting material. CW: 15:19 Very interesting, very-very interesting and sideline. It is not really probably important for this, but many years later, when I had my church in map pack, my organist, who's actually a jazz musician, on how we got to talking about it, it turned out his father had been one of my authors, which was really weird. His father was an expert on Godard, and we had a book about a Godard [crosstalk] IG: 15:42 [crosstalk] was interesting [crosstalk] So as a production editor, did you get to read this material? CW: 15:51 Yes, well- IG: 15:51 Were you just more interested in people- CW: 15:55 Well, I mean, obviously we had, we had proof readers, and we had things like that. So, I was but I got very especially the film books. I got very interested in the film books, and I felt like I did more than just, you know, kind of shuffle traffic things around. And I had a lot of contact with the authors at that point. And then later became an editor at Prentice Hall, and what was then called their managed book division. Managed books- was a big thing in the (19)70s where you had a titular author, but you also did an enormous amount of research about what the other competing books were like, how much, how many words they how much space they gave to certain topics, and all of that. And so, I became a, became a development editor, and eventually became a development editor at at Harper and Roe, oh, I went to work very briefly for something called the Franklin Library. They did those leather-bound volumes, you know, that you see on people's shelves. And that was good because they paid a lot, which enabled me to get a job that paid more. So eventually, a man that I had known at Prentice Hall, who had gone to Harper and Roe in the College Division, hired me to be their-their development sort of head of their development department. And then- IG: 17:16 What does the development [crosstalk] CW: 17:17 Well, what we did was what we did was work. There was the odd quote author, and then there were also professional writers. And so, you-you arranged, you oversaw the research that was done for the book. You worked with the author, you know, on the outline and sort of work with you also arranged for, you know, professional reviews of the of the of the of the manuscript by, you know, other-other academics, and then sort of saw it through production. You were not the production editor, but you were the person in house that the production people worked with. But then eventually Harper and Roe had a terrible time with its biology editors. Two of them sort of failed quickly. At that point, they- we had a-a textbook for anatomy and physiology for two-year schools for people who are going to be eight, you know, not nurses. Well, could be for nursing, you know, could be for technicians. You know, whatever was the best-selling book in the department, and very expensive to do. Not only made a lot of money, but cost a lot of money IG: 18:28 What were the years of doing this? CW: 18:30 Oh, okay, I became the development, I became. So eventually, they asked me if I would be the acquisitions editor, the buyer for the biology list that was 1981 and they wanted me because I understood what it meant to do these lavishly illustrated, you know, books, and I had a good reputation for my dealings with authors, you know. And so, I did that for seven years, I guess. And then then became the Executive Editor for Sciences at Harper and Roe, and then left that in at the beginning of 1989 IG: 19:05 Did you have any science background? CW: 19:09 But biology, unlike a lot of other sciences, you need to do these words, you know what I mean. And I had some really wonderful authors that I liked very much. And of course, I traveled around the country, you know, visiting, visiting university, you know, colleges and universities, and I really, I really enjoyed it a lot. But as I say, I eventually I had, I had my-my parents did not go to church, but they sent me to Presbyterian Sunday school. I went to Presbyterian Church all in high school, I went to Presbyterian church for the first two years I was at Harpur, and then my very best friend at Harpur, Susan Calkins. Now Susan Calkins, Ritas, was an Episcopalian, and I visited her during the summer between our sophomore and junior years, and she took me to church of the Advent in Boston, which is very famous for its high church liturgy and incense and smells and bells, as we say. And I was so swept away by the liturgy that I decided to become an Episcopalian on the spot. It was actually-actually confirmed while I was at Harpur. And uh- IG: 20:16 So, tell us a little bit about that environment. And- CW: 20:19 Yes, I mean, it was, it was not a lot of people went to church. I was, in some ways, sort of an oddball in the way, you know, I was president of the Student Government. IG: 20:31 No, I did not. CW: 20:32 Oh yes. IG: 20:33 I did not know. CW: 20:33 Yeah-yeah. I was the first woman elected to be President of the Student Government. That was in (19)64 and I am sorry, (19)63 and we-we had a group called Students for a Democratic community, which was a take-off on a democratic society. And this is just my opinion, check with other people. But I think one of the reasons that they, that group sort of nominated me to be President of the Student Government was because I was a good girl. Do you know what I mean, it was, I was the kind of person that the administration, if they did not like what STC was doing, they could not really fault me. Do you know what I am saying? Good, very good grades. IG: 21:19 And maybe you were [crosstalk] CW: 21:21 Yes, exactly. I mean, I believed in what stood for, but I was not personally a radical kind of person, you know what I mean? [crosstalk] So I was, I was kind of difficult to be sidelined because I was, you know, a rebel or, right, what you know, whatever. So anyway, but so, yeah, well, you know, at Harpur at that point, I think I can tell you a story that will give you an example that will kind of illustrate something of what it was like. I was thinking about this as I was thinking about coming here today. I had a friend. This is freshman year, I guess, or maybe sophomore year, I do not remember who lived in I lived in O'Connor. She lived in Johnson, and I used to go over there occasionally to visit her. And every time I went over there, one of the girls who lived on the floor was playing Johnny Mathis', Wonderful! Wonderful! 24 hours a day next door to me in O'Connor was living a girl who played Joan Baez, is House of the Rising Sun, 24 hours a day. And that was sort of what it was like. You know what I mean, we had very distinct groups. We did not call them hippies. We call them sickies, so, you know. And it was, you know, graduating in (19)65 the Vietnam War, we had, like, I think, one protest toward the very-very end of the time that we were there. So, we actually went to class. Do you know, do not, I am saying we did not? And you also have to remember, if you entered Harpur, I was like, 17, okay, in 1961 well, I had spent most of my formative years in the (19)50s, you know, we were kind of on a we were, in a way, a transition, I think, to what came later. And our thing was, really civil rights was a very big thing, civil rights club. We had a civil rights club. We also went to Buffalo to protest the hearings. HUAC had hearings about the State University. I think in Buffalo, we went to protest that. IG: 23:27 What was thought about? CW: 23:28 Well, you know, HUAC House, on American Activities Committee was looking into, I guess, what they thought were communists in the state universities. IG: 23:35 Meaning the faculty[crosstalk] CW: 23:36 Yeah, I would assume Buffalo, this is Buffalo. Buffalo, well-well, I think it was in our sophomore year that Buffalo joined the State University, you know, because originally Harpur was the only liberal arts school, and then buffalo joined, Stony Brook joined, and they converted Albany into from being a strictly teachers’ college into even what they call the university center that was also a liberal arts school. So, there were four of them liberal arts schools by the time we-we left. So anyway, we, you know, we protested about that. I think the only thing- IG: 24:11 So, you were politicized? CW: 24:12 Oh yes, we were, we were, but when you talk to people who graduated later, Vietnam was, there was a very big thing. It was not for us. No, it was. I mean, although I certainly had friends who-who you know when you know we were in the draft and you know or not and all that, but I think for us, civil rights was probably the biggest thing, because you have to understand that we were in in school during the height of the Civil Rights Movement. I mean, Martin Luther King's, you know, the speech in Washington, the Civil Rights Act, the voting right wrote Rights Act, all of that was and we did have people who went south in the summer, you know, to teach and demonstrate and-and whatever. So that was very important. The only thing that really stopped classes for us was Kennedy's death. Of course, Kennedy died while we were there. And-and, of course, the Cuban Missile Crisis was in the fall of our son is in the fall of our sophomore. IG: 25:13 What did you think about that? CW: 25:14 Well, we actually watched it on television, and we did not have to understand, in the dorms, you know. So, they had, they had it, yeah, they brought in the TV. They brought in a TV for The Beatles too, [laughs] IG: 25:29 On the Ed Sullivan Show. CW: 25:30 On The Ed Sullivan Show, yes, we watched it. And, of course, for Kennedy's funeral. I mean, you know. So no, I think people you know, thought that conceivably, that for the Cuban Missile Crisis, that this could have been World War three, you know. And who knows what would have happened, especially being in New York. I mean, we all grew up, you know, with the duck and cover drills when it was just so ridiculous, [crosstalk] especially in New York, come on. IG: 26:01 But this was the thing the past at Harpur College. None of, none of the drills [crosstalk] CW: 26:07 We had grown up- IG: 26:08 I understand. CW: 26:08 -you know, we had grown up with the idea that the Russians were going to come and bomb us, do you know? And I mean, blow us up. IG: 26:14 But did you believe that? CW: 26:16 I think as a child, I remember we went on a summer vacation, and we went to Gettysburg. We saw the, you know, the battlefield at Gettysburg and the ray caverns. And we were coming back, and we're staying overnight in this motel someplace in Pennsylvania, I guess. And in the middle of the night, a siren went off, and I thought it was an atomic attack. Of course, it was the volunteer fire department. You know, so, you know, we grew up with the notion that the siren was going to go off and, you know, the bomb was going to come down. Of course, my father, when I was in junior high school, we had early dismissal drills. Instead of the duck and cover, we had an early dismissal drill so you could go home and die with your family. And I always thought, Well, my father's a cop. He was not going to be home. No, so anyway. But it was, I think, you know, things that would seem petty. Now, like, you know, we had a demonstration against the rule against wearing shorts in the dining but it was, it was very much a part of that development of the 60s mentality. IG: 27:29 Right. And yet, and yet, you know, you, you participated in the duck and cover. I know that everyone did. And you believe that, you know, the Soviets were possibly a threat [crosstalk] And you were also, well, my protesting at Buffalo against you are, yes, so how does that? How does that kind of there? There must have been some kind of transition in awareness and political awareness. CW: 27:52 Yeah, I think, I think also now I grew up my father, who was not he was a cop, but we are not Irish, and we were not Catholic. And he was a Republican, very unusual. So- but, you know, as, of course, you know, Kennedy was elected when I was in high school. And I think, you know, that was sort of the beginning of-of more of a political, you know, awareness, and I never voted for Republican in my life. I voted for a Democrat. I voted the first vote I ever cast was in 1965 in New York City for John Lindsay as the mayor my father hated and so, you know, I voted for Lindsay. I got my mother to vote for Lindsay, you know, so, I mean, I was, I was more of a, I was a Democrat, you know, fairly early on right now. And I think at Harpur, you know, there were a lot of people who were very politically aware and very politically active. And of course, you know, I fell in with that group. IG: 29:01 Do you think that you're thinking altered about the world and how you perceive politics in the world at Harpur College? Or did it occur before? CW: 29:11 Probably it became- yeah, I would, I would say yes. I would say that I met more people in at Harpur who were politically active than I had certainly ever met at Hunter High School. I do not think, I do not remember people being especially politically active, although, you know, at Hunter especially, and probably also at Harpur. At Hunter, there were a number of girls whose families had been--two of two of my best friends at Harpur were from Latvia and had been displaced persons after the war, and whose parents had been whose-whose father stayed behind in order to get his wife and children out and other--we had a girl from the Ukraine. We had girl. We had people, you know, who were whose lives, families' lives, certainly if not their own. Because I am most of my classmates were born in (19)43 or (19)44 so we're talking about people who were born during the war, especially if you were born of European parents, either your parents were refugees or, you know, or you were yourself, I mean, in some way, as an infant, anyway. So, I think that I was certainly conscious of political developments. We had a course at Hunter I remember in my senior year about the developing nations of Africa, do you know? And so, you know, I think one was aware, but I was not, I was not really an adult at that point. I think, you know, at Harpur, you became an adult, and I think that made a difference also. IG: 30:53 And you gravitated to political activity because of the seeds that were planted early on- CW: 31:00 Yeah, I think so. And just because of the friends that I made at Harpur. You know, my friend Susan Calkins, it was, I said it was my very best friend. Was very politically active, and still is, for that matter. So, you know, I- IG: 31:15 What kind of, do you remember the kind of conversations that you would have? CW: 31:18 I am sorry, I do not. IG: 31:20 You do not of course. I know, I know [crosstalk] You know what you know a question I thought of you went you mentioned that you went to seminary at age 60. CW: 31:33 Yes. IG: 31:34 How was that experience different from attending college at 17? CW: 31:39 Yeah, well, last time before I went to before I went to seminary in 2004. I had not been in a formal classroom since 1968 when I got my master's degree at Toronto. So I was, just, say, a little bit apprehensive about how this was going to go. And of course, the technology was entirely different, you know. So anyway, got into class. Now a lot of a lot of people were also people who had had other careers. So, although I was among the oldest in the group that I was in, you know, a lot of people were in their 40s and 50s, but we had some people who were in their 20s, you know, and 30s, and we had a lot of good laughs, I have to say, because our life experiences had been so-so different. I remember in my Old Testament class, my Old Testament professor, who was probably in his 40s at that point, was very big on bringing in examples from current culture, especially music. And he was into the discussion. And he was very big on multicultural interpretations in the Bible. He was originally his family was Korean, I think yes. So anyway, he would bring in these references to these groups that I must confess I had never heard because, you know, music is the great divider. IG: 32:57 Of course. CW: 32:58 Until one day in class, he said something about Simon and Garfunkel and all of us of a certain age, clap. [laughter] But I really, I really enjoyed seminary. I enjoy, I always enjoyed school. I mean, you know, class and all of that, and it was nice. It was like using a different part of my brain and taking a rest from all the other things that I had ever done. And as I said, you know, we, especially some of the younger kids in the in the class, we really appreciated each other, I think, you know, so it was, it was, it was good. I was I was really because it was funny when I, when I was accepted into the ordination process for the priesthood. I never expected that the bishop would say to me, you have to leave New York. But he was right, because I had been working for the diocese for so long, and I never would have gotten away from it, you know. And he had been the dean at Seabury Western before he became the Bishop of New York. So, he said to me, "How about Seabury?" And I had, I had promised myself that whatever he said, whatever it took, I would do it. And so, I picked up all my stuff and the cats, and I moved out to Evanston for two years. So. IG: 34:10 You mentioned attending Presbyterian Church in Binghamton. CW: 34:15 Yes. IG: 34:15 What was that like? Were there students, or was it- CW: 34:18 There were few students. I mean, the problem was, if you look at our yearbook, there was a group called Young Americans for Freedom, which was sort of the Goldwater type. And I was not like them at all, you know, just not like them at all. [crosstalk] No, not particularly my church. But I just meant being-being known as a Protestant that went to church, you know, right, a little right chance I always thought. But then, when I went, when I be, when I decided to go to the Episcopal Church, my friend Susan was there. And so it was, you know, I felt more-more comfortable. IG: 34:54 And where was the church? CW: 34:56 And it was in John, actually, the church I went to that I was confirmed at was in Johnson City. There was also a church in Binghamton that we went to occasionally. So, in fact, I went because when I was confirmed, my family was not there. The rector of the church invited me to come to dinner, and I had dinner with his family and the bishop, Bishop Higley, his name was, who was the Bishop of Central New York, who confirmed me, so, yeah. IG: 35:22 Was there a great division between town and gown, between the student community and Binghamton [inaudible] CW: 35:32 Yeah, probably, I think, you know, do not forget, we did not have cars. IG: 35:38 So how did you get around? CW: 35:39 Well, eventually a bus. I mean, some people did, right, very-very few, eventually they ran a bus line that came up into the campus. So, you know, you did not, I mean, except, you know, to go to, you know, to go out on a Friday night or something like that. You really did not get into town, into town, per se. I mean, I was not, I did not feel very aware of Binghamton. Do you know what I mean, as a town, and there were, there were some people who lived, I mean, other than students who lived in Binghamton, but I mean people who were from Binghamton, who were in in school, but there were not that many. I did not, I do not think I could be wrong about that, but I do not think there were that many. And do not forget how small Harpur was also at that point, when I graduated, there were 900 people there. IG: 36:24 Oh, my God, so I did not, yes, I did not realize that small. Because- CW: 36:29 Yes, absolutely, in fact, our last year there was the first year that that they had graduate, any kind of graduate enrollment. But yes, oh, 100 students, roughly when we graduated. So, I mean, like, for example, I went to all of the reunion, all the 10-year reunions, you know, and when we had the 40th, the place had changed, but they were still, think I still recognized it when we went back and, you know, in 2005 for the for the 50th, or 2015 I should say, for the 50th, we could not find our way. We could not find our way around. It was just totally different. IG: 36:29 And now there are three campuses. CW: 36:31 Oh, really? IG: 36:31 In Johnson City, there is the schools of pharmacology and nursing. CW: 37:12 Oh, yes. And of course, there were no professional schools at that point. IG: 37:20 [inaudible] professional it was a liberal arts. So let us talk about your education. CW: 37:26 Oh, yes. IG: 37:26 Did you remember any outstanding classes faculty made a particular [crosstalk] CW: 37:33 Yeah, well, as you know, but when we were there, there was still a number of faculty who had been part of the sort of University of Chicago group you know that- IG: 37:42 Yes, I heard about that. CW: 37:44 -because, you know, Bartle had hired all these people from, more or less from the University of Chicago, and the curriculum was really more or less based on this model of the great books, you know. So, for example, we had, you know, two years of what they call lit and comp literature and composition, where you read something and you wrote about it. Essentially, I had, I had placed out of the first year for my AP course, so I started in the second year. And it is interesting because I had also placed out of a year of history, and I was not sure at that point whether I was going to be a history major or an English major. And I just, I remember Mario DiCesare taught the comp course that I took, and I thought he was so wonderful. And unfortunately, the history teacher that I had was not as good, so I sort of opted into English. And, you know, we had Dr. Huppe [Bernard Huppe], who taught, who taught Chaucer, I mean, who was a legend. And I do not know the I thought the English faculty was especially strong at that point. So, and then I also took German and for three years, and the German faculty was good. So, you know, that is, those are the things I remember the most. IG: 38:57 Did you have anything similar to an immersion? Did you speak program in German? Did you speak German outside of the class? CW: 39:05 No, I did not. I did not. I have a girl, woman that I roomed with at the very beginning. She and I had both gone to Hunter. She became a German major, and I am sure she had more, you know, than that. But I really liked German. I have to say, IG: 39:20 It was a language lab. CW: 39:23 We had a language lab. We listened and we spoke, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we spoke in class. But it was more it was not. It was, I mean, conversation was not the sort of main thing of the course. The more it was a literature it was really reading, you know, IG: 39:24 Reading and discussing. CW: 39:29 Yes. IG: 39:31 English? CW: 39:41 Right-right. You know, well, I remember very distinctly what the Hunger Artist by Franz Kafka, which is strange enough, when you read it in English, but when you are a student and you are reading it in German, you are saying that cannot be what it is you know-know, so, and, of course, poetry Heine and, I mean, German poetry is really beautiful. Yeah, I still have, I still have my German poetry book at home, you know. So, yeah, so it was more literature based than actually, than conversation, you know, at least what I what I did. I mean, there may have been a conversational German, course, I do not remember if it was. IG: 40:23 How did you spend your free time? You were part of the student- CW: 40:27 So, well, the senior, but my, you know, junior, senior year, being in, being involved with-with student government, that took up a lot of time. I do not, I do not really. Now, you know, when we first moved in the dorms were not finished all of them, and so we tripled up. So, I was in with two senior girls my for the first, like, first semester. But I do not remember what we did other than, I mean, you know, the curriculum was, was, you know, was strenuous. It was not, you know, you could not just sort of look at something the night before a test. And, you know, and that was it. And we wrote a lot of papers, I mean, a lot of papers. And, oh yes, actually, in my junior-junior year, yes, junior year, we started a magazine called The Humanities Review, and I was- Bob Posick was the editor, I think, and Francis Newman was the faculty advisor. His sister was in my class, by the way, Frances new or the class after us. I cannot remember. Francis Newman was the faculty advisor, and I-I was something. Maybe I typed it. I cannot remember, but I remember, yes-yes, the humanities review I was involved with that. IG: 41:54 I wonder if it still exists. I heard of it. CW: 41:57 Oh yeah, I do not know what happened after we graduated to tell you the truth. IG: 42:02 But, and what kind of, what kind of articles did it run? Do you remember? CW: 42:07 I do not. I do not really remember [crosstalk] IG: 42:07 Was student writing? CW: 42:07 Well, there was student writing, yeah, I think mostly, I think it was mostly student writing. I cannot honestly remember to tell you the truth, right? And, you know, we had a lot of creative people, you know, Andy Bergman. And Bergman, who was the movie person was, and his best friend, Richie Walter, became the head of the UCLA Film-Film School. So, they were and another guy in the class, Alan Goldsmith, he was the he was the editor of the yearbook. I got in terrible trouble. If you look at the (19)64 yearbook, you can see why it was very different, very different from anything that that had been and then, you know, you know, we have what it was also interesting was that, for example, Mike Tillis, who was part of the STC, you know, sort of what you would call hippie group. Also played basketball, which, you know, we do not think of that, but he did. He is now a rabbi, by the way, in Israel, Orthodox rabbi in Israel changed his name, yeah, I have not he wrote in Israel. He is in Israel. He is an orthodox rabbi. Now you would never have guessed. Never in 1 million years, have guessed. Everybody went to the basketball games. I mean, everybody that was the big sport. We also interesting enough had soccer because [inaudible], I think was his name- IG: 43:36 Did girls play? CW: 43:37 I do not remember. I know the boys played. But I do not remember the girls played. But we had a soccer team because we had a kid from Norway who had played soccer in nor you know, at home, and you know, he played. So. IG: 43:52 Were there any other international students? CW: 43:54 I was just about to say, yes, there was one poor boy from Africa who came. IG: 43:59 I think I have heard about this poor boy from any [crosstalk] CW: 44:01 He thought it was going to be close to New York City. [crosstalk] Yes, I cannot, I cannot remember his name now, but I felt so sorry for him because, I mean, he was all we were all white. I mean, you know, almost, almost all white. But you know, it is like, [crosstalk] like when I was, I say, when I was in, when I was in public school in the Bronx, my entire public school-school was white. There were no black kids when I was in junior high school in the same basic neighborhood, there was like two black girls now, Hunter was more it was more diverse because we had girls from all over the city. Do you know what I mean? So, we had, we had, you know, black girls, we had Asian girls, we had girls, you know, whose families, you know, were refugees. You know. I mean, it was we and we had girls. It was not only diverse, although the majority were white, but there was enough. Significant number of non-whites that you-you know, it was diverse. But the other thing that was really diverse about-about Hunter was the economic background of students, because we had girls who lived on Park Avenue, girls were on welfare. And then a girl who's who lived on Park Avenue, because her father was the superintendent of the building, you know, on Park Avenue. So, it was and everything in between. IG: 45:25 And you have, you did not have that economic diversity at Harpur? CW: 45:29 I do not think so. I do not, I do not think so. IG: 45:31 What about the Upstate students versus the New York City, or they were all from kind of a [crosstalk] CW: 45:38 Well, there was a, yeah, I mean, the mid there was probably what, 60 percent of the students were from New York City, I think. I mean, it was an overwhelming number. And I remember meeting a girl who had gone, who was from upstate somewhere, who had never met a Jew before in her life, you know, so it was, you know what it was. And as I say, there was another girl who was, who was on, came to Harpur, probably had been, you know, in the honor roll in her high school started was getting D's because she had never done the same kind of work. You know, it was not that she was stupid. She was not she transferred to Fredonia; I think it was--got on the Dean's list. So, you know, it was very different. You know, Harpur was really different than because everything else was a State Teachers College. And I do not mean to say that all the Upstate kids were like that, but there were a number of people who, just because of the kinds of schools they went to, did not have the opportunities that, like, say, I had, you know, and of course, we had kids from city, kids who were from Hunter, who were from Bronx Science, who were from Stuyvesant, who were from Brooklyn Tech, you know. I mean, you know, it was a there were some people from elite kind of high schools that public, you know, very few private school people, I think, but public. IG: 45:38 What were some of your best experiences at Harpur College? What do you remember with the most fondness? CW: 46:11 I do not know that I remember any individual experiences, but you know, there are people that I met there, like Terry and like Susan and like Bob Freeston and Ryan Goldsmith and Andy Bergman and people, just people who were really interesting and really creative, and we had fun. Do you know what I mean? We had; we had a good time. We worked hard, but we had a good time. I do not, I do not remember anything, you know, a particular occasion, but I was very happy at Harpur. Do you know what I mean? I was really, really glad that I went there. Now, not everybody was. I had a couple of people. One girl who, you know, transferred out after her freshman year, went back to the city because she just missed New York, you know, more than anything else. And I think she was also very young. And I think that was also hard being away from home, and you know, all of that. IG: 48:04 So, do you think that, you know, maybe Hunter College kind of set the level of your political engagement at Harpur College? CW: 48:20 I do not know; I really would not say that. I think what it did set was the level of my ability to take advantage of the of the of the education that was there, you know that really and truly, even if I had to choose, I would have to say that Hunter changed my academic life more than more than Harpur did, just because it, it was sort of like I went to Hunter for three years, 10th grade to 12th grade. It was like three additional years of Harpur educationally, you know, I mean the level of what you, what you, you know, the kind of education you got. IG: 48:59 Did you notice that there were different expectations for men than there were for women at Harpur College? I think maybe not for you, because you have a Hunter College experience. CW: 49:10 Yeah-yeah. I never felt that. For me personally, there was any difference. And of course, at Hunter, almost all the teachers were women. I mean, we had a couple of men, but three or four, I guess at Harpur, they were mostly men. I am, in fact, I think, actually, in my entire four years there, I do not think I had a single woman as a teacher. I think all of my teachers were men. I do not remember any woman, and I think I would, because they should have stood out, and there were women there, certainly, but-but I, you know, it is funny, I do not think we were aware of it, do you know, because that is just the way. It is just the way things were. But I do not, I never felt at all that I was, you know, discriminated against, or-or somehow, you know, not appreciate. Educated or whatever, being a woman, I really did not you know it was interesting, because when I got out of school and I went, I remember this one very distinctly, interview for a job, $75 a week, a publishing company, which name I have forgotten now. And I went, and it was an assistant kind of job, which they all were. And so, I said to the person that I interviewed with, and "Could you tell me what the you know, what are the opportunities, you know, for advancement?" They said, "Oh, do not worry about it all. The girls get married and have babies." Well, nobody would say that today. And I did not go there, not because of that. Well, that was part of it, not because of what he said about women, but just because he more or less said, there is no opportunity for advancement. I mean, you know, but also because, as I said, they were paying $75 a week, and I found a job for 85 you know, so in a department run by a woman, by the way, which was interesting now that I think of it. But anyway, no-no, I did not feel it. Now, you might get an entirely different, you know, experience from somebody else. But I-I was, I was never shy. Let us put it that way, in class, ever. IG: 49:11 How do you think your classmates would remember you me [inaudible] period? CW: 49:11 Me? IG: 49:11 Yes, CW: 50:28 Probably as a good girl. I think probably somebody intelligent and, you know, and to a certain extent, I was, I was a leader, but I do not, I did not feel and being the first woman elected as the president of the Student Government, which I suppose, was a big deal, but it did not seem all that big at the time, you know. So, I enjoyed our 50th reunion, I have to say. IG: 50:47 Were they astonished to learn that you had become a priest? CW: 50:52 No, because I had been, I was, I was ordained 25 years ago to the diaconate. 26 years ago, to the diaconate. So, I had already been to reunions where I was in an ordained life. So, it was not that, it was not that strange. But the funny thing was, when we did our 50th reunion, Jeanette Mayer Luzasky put together this video, you know, for our and she asked me if I would be the narrator, because they figured I was not afraid about getting up in front of people and talking. Since I did that all the time, you know, and I have never been afraid of public speaking. We had, I remember when we were when we had the race for the USG president, it was Richie Walter and Jesse, something or other, and myself, and I have always been good on my feet, do you know? And so, I think I kind of surprised people and maybe surprise myself at, you know, being able to sort of hold my own, you know. And Richie was very, very bright, you know, very smart and very quick. So. And then, of course, when I was in publishing, when I was when I was in the acquisitions part, I had to do sales meeting presentations, which I have always said was one of the best [crosstalk] IG: 53:03 What do you think owes to that ability to speak? CW: 53:06 I have never. I have I do not know why, but I have never been shy about it. When I was in the sixth grade for our graduation, I had to recite Emma Lazarus poem, you know, in front of the whole auditorium, and I was fine with it. Just never was afraid of it. I do not know why. Maybe because my parents, my parents were very encouraging. Do you know what I mean? They always sort of thought I could do anything. And I think you feel that when you know, when you are a kid, if you are you know, if you get that kind of support, IG: 53:37 Right. If you get that kind of support, I, for one, have acted on the stage. I have no fear, all right about and yet, public speaking is a very different matter. CW: 53:50 Yeah, what was good, was good training for preaching. [laughs] IG: 53:53 It was very [inaudible] Do you ever look back on your years in college to draw lessons that you want to impart to your children today. Do you ever look back at yourself during those years and draw material for your service? CW: 54:12 I do not know. Not-not necessarily. No, I do not, I do not remember. I do not think I do that, but I do. I do look back and I think how fortunate I was to be able to get a first-class education without bankrupting the family. Of course, no debt. I mean, we did not have debt. Then thank you. You know, I have, I tried to take out, I took out a loan when I went to seminary, and, you know, so I now paying off a student loan, but I never had any of that before. My entire education was practically free. I mean, up until seminary and University of Toronto, I got a I got a scholarship there, so that also helped, and it was not that expensive either. I think I just, I was glad for the people that I met. I was glad for the good, very good, you know, teachers. That I had, and just forgetting, frankly, for having a liberal arts education, I really, I find it, you know, kind of sad that children, practically in preschool, have to choose a career, you know, and all they are doing is being trained like, pardon me, seals, to do something. And you know that to me, that that was not what education was for. I mean, it was, you know, when we were, you know, young kids, young adults, it was kind of the last time that you could just do something because you wanted to do it. Do, you know, they did not, you did not have to do it because it meant you could get a promotion, or you did not have to do it, because this was part of the job, whether you liked it or not. I mean, you know, and-and you had a chance to maybe explore and learn things that you did not even know, you did not know, [laughs] which- IG: 54:13 Small college community yes were given that opportunity. CW: 54:13 Yes. And, of course, the other thing is, and I asked this question when we went to the 50th reunion, because now that Harpur has, what, 16,000 students, or something like that, that is everybody. It is not just the undergraduate. But, you know, the classes that we took were taught by full professors. We did not have TAs you know what I mean, we did not. I mean, yes, they were large lectures, but even the discussion classes were led by real faculty members, you know, and I always felt that. And I asked the president of they had a question-and-answer thing. I said, you know, that was one of the great things. In fact, both Susan Calkins had gone to Purdue for the first year, I think, and-and-and Terry Shortell had gone to Penn State, they both transferred in. And one of the reasons they transferred in was they said we were in these huge rooms, but the professor was way down there, and all we saw were teaching assistants, you know. So, I mean, in that one-on-one interaction, and I always thought that that was one of the best features of the Harpur that I knew was that you really got the benefit of up-close work with somebody, you know, and- IG: 54:13 Probably after class extracurricularly- CW: 54:49 Yeah, to a certain extent, but yes to a certain extent. But I think that was important. I really do. I think that, you know, it was a, it was a really good liberal arts education, and I was very glad that I had it. IG: 55:31 What-what are, what were some, you know, life lessons that you can share with I know that that the educational experience now is very different than when it was in your time. But what advice can you give to- CW: 55:31 Oh my God, you are going to miss your train. IG: 56:56 Oh-oh. CW: 56:56 What time, what time is your train, 4:57? IG: 57:25 4:57. CW: 57:25 We are not going to make it. IG: 57:25 We are not going to. I will take the next [inaudible] CW: 57:25 What-what time is it, you know? IG: 57:25 I will have to [inaudible] CW: 57:25 I guess, I guess, the thing I would say is, you know, and obviously we, most people, especially these days, start out with an idea of where they are going, you know. And I would just say, be open to the possibility that you may change your mind and to not just you know, not just to take you know, courses that you think fit in with this career that you have chosen for yourself, but maybe take something that is a bit of a more of a challenge, or just that might interest you for some reason that you know, you know, because, as I say, it is probably the last opportunity to kind of just do something because you want to right now, and not because it is necessarily prescribed. I mean, I have no idea what the you know, how much, how many required courses there are these days and how they you know, because we had sort of two years basic education, and then from then on, it was kind of what you want, you know, what you chose to do, you know, with distribution requirements and that sort of thing. But I would, you know, I think that would be my major advice is to, you know, try things out while you are there. You know, while you have the chance to do it before. You know, you have to support yourself, and you have to support a family or something like that. You know. IG: 57:25 Do you have any concluding remarks? CW: 59:22 No, as I, as I said, I am very I am very grateful for the for the experience, the education and the experience that I had at Harpur, and for the people that I met and the faculty members that I met, and, you know, to be able to have a first-class education within the means of someone, you know, who's not well and does not have to come out with this. There were no, there were no debts then. But I mean, in other words, that the opportunity was there and you were not constrained by, oh, I cannot afford that. You know, that was, I think that I felt that that was really. Really important that it was a really first-class education that did not, you know, bankrupt my parents so and, you know, again, having the residential experience, I think, was also very important to, you know, really sort of be, you know, with people, and also you know, you know, as an only child, I sort of had to learn to take care of myself, and you know, and I did, basically. IG: 1:00:31 Thank you very much. CW: 1:00:32 You are very welcome. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Reverend Canon Claudia Wilson Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Student Associations, Students for Democratic Change; Harpur College – Alumni in the Episcopal Church; Harpur College – Alumni in Publishing; Harpur College – Alumni living in Yonkers, NY Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wilson, Canon Claudia ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Reverend Claudia is a semi-retired priest at St. John’s Episcopal Church in Yonkers. Before her ordination into the priesthood, she worked in publishing. At Harpur College, she was the first woman elected head of SDC (Students for Democratic Change), the progressive student government. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-03-19 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Claudia Wilson.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-19 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 60:33 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/23ac4353d0f294dc4c4ec7c642c9d908.mp3 11b1bc05c8e1b3572aed56648abdee86 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lynne Federman Year of Graduation 1974 Biographical Text For 30 years, Lynn successfully guided institutions under regulatory enforcement actions and helped create and implement anti-money laundering programs. At Harpur, she managed the student-run radio station, WHRW. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the law; Harpur College – Alumni in banking regulation; Harpur College – Alumni at WHRW; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the law; Harpur College – Alumni in banking regulation; Harpur College – Alumni at WHRW; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Lynne Federman Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 4 April 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay, hello. This is Lynne Federman. LF: 00:06 Hi. My name is Lynn Fetterman. We are sitting here in South Boston, Massachusetts, and I am going to talk about my time at SUNY Binghamton. I am 64 years old. I graduated in 1974 I started in September 1970. IG: 00:29 Thank you, so, Lynn, maybe we can begin by your telling us where you grew up and who your parents were. LF: 00:41 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. My parents were Anne and Murray Fetterman. We lived in Brooklyn my whole life, until we moved to Clifton, New Jersey, where I went to high school. But we had a house in upstate New York, so I was very familiar with upstate New York, and I wanted to go to Binghamton because I knew it was a great university and It was reasonably priced. IG: 01:16 Before we before we discuss your college years, tell us, give us a little bit of background about your family, what they did, where they were from, whether they encouraged your education. LF: 01:34 So my dad was he had his own little business. My mom stayed at home until we were in high school, when she went to work for Peugeot. Their parents, all four of my grandparents, emigrated from Poland, came through Ellis Island. My mom and dad both grew- well my mom grew up in the Lower East Side, and my dad grew up in Brooklyn. And education was greatly encouraged, though it is true that although they encouraged me to go to the best college I could go to, the money was really for the boys my younger brothers. So it was really understood that if there was money for an Ivy League college, that would be for the boys. IG: 02:31 Did they go through an Ivy League college? LF: 02:32 Um, let us see, yeah, my next brother went to Rochester, and my brother after that, I think, went to Hobart for a short time. I think. I do not know. I did apply to Cornell, maybe for scholarship. I did not get in to Cornell undergrad. So I do not know what would have happened if I had gotten in, because I know there was not money to go there, and Binghamton was so reasonably priced, and because we had the house upstate, I got the in-state tuition. IG: 03:03 Did you get a regent scholarship? Do you remember? LF: 03:05 I think I did. I do not remember exactly. IG: 03:09 So did you have a clear idea of what you wanted to study, or were you just attracted by the liberal arts? LF: 03:18 I like the liberal arts in general, but I distinctly remember not really knowing what I wanted to do, but thinking my choices were limited to law or medicine, for some reason, that was my choice for my family, and I did not really like medicine. So I remember distinctly standing in front of the post office boxes in Binghamton, where the student had their post, opening it up and getting my LSAT scores, and knowing that I could go to a good law school. And they did end up going to Cornell Law so I drove from Binghamton to Ithaca that summer to go to Cornell Law School. IG: 03:59 What-what-what are some memorable courses that you took at Harpur College? It was- LF: 04:07 Yeah, I went to Harpur College. I would say my coursework was not as memorable as my extracurricular activities, but I did love my psychology courses. IG: 04:18 Do you remember- LF: 04:19 I do not remember the professor's name, but I did some research for him with mice. That is what I remember, and that was a lot of fun. IG: 04:27 Do you remember what the research? LF: 04:29 I do not remember what we were looking at, but I felt like I was doing some kind of more advanced research for an undergrad. He was doing a lot with graduate students, but he let me do some work as an undergrad, but I really spent more time most of my career at Binghamton, in my memory, was at the radio station, WHRW, so I had a show, and it was a it was a soft rock show, folk rock and. I remember distinctly broadcasting, practicing in front of the mic, picking songs with albums. You had to play the albums like a DJ. I was a DJ, and then becoming more and more involved with the radio station, meeting my husband there, dating the guy who was the-the general manager before me, who is Eric Logan, felt he was the general manager. And then he graduated, I think, after my freshman year. But I started at Binghamton. I was 16, so that was young. I was very-very, young. And what I really remember is orientation, pre orientation, we went camping, which I do not think I had ever gone camping nearby, like maybe on the campus we had, we had pre orientation, camp out. IG: 05:54 Overnight camp ? LF: 05:56 Overnight, yeah, but in my memory, it was near-near the dormitories. Was it Hingham? Hingham? What is the name of the dorms up there? IG: 06:09 So what was, do you remember? What was the point of this- LF: 06:14 Orientation? IG: 06:15 Orientation, well, together and understand, but, but doing it outdoors? LF: 06:20 I think so you can make friends. IG: 06:22 I see, I see. And you did? LF: 06:24 And I did. I made friends. I made got met my first boyfriend there. So that was nice. So then I had a boyfriend, and I had my first roommate, who was so different from me, and you know, she was from the Midwest, she-she was from a military family and we are still friends today. Yeah, I am going to go see her in California. IG: 06:45 Oh, that is lovely. That is lovely. So it was, you know, a broadening kind of experience. LF: 06:55 It was completely different from anything I had ever experienced, but I was extremely diligent. I do not think I missed a class, and my view was, and still is, with my children, if you are paying for it, you might as well take all the classes. So I know I do not think I skipped a class the whole time I was there. Maybe I did, if I was really sick, and I was sick at one point, I was in the infirmary for a month with pneumonia, Yeah. But that, I think, is the only time I miss class. What? IG: 07:25 What was the campus like those days? Was it pretty rural, you know- LF: 07:33 In my mind it was rural. Yeah, I have not been back in quite a number of years, but I remember the last time I was up. I do not remember it. Possibly it was 30 years ago, when my son was little. We brought him back, we took him to the radio station, and he was a little baby. And I thought it was built up then, 30 years ago. So I cannot imagine what it is like. I am trying to get up there this spring. So it is much more built up. Yeah, I would say there was Woods everywhere surrounding the whole campus. IG: 08:07 There still are there. It is a very wooded area. They are peripheral campuses. So you know, what were your- how did you stumble into the radio station, not having had prior experience. LF: 08:23 I am trying to remember how I got there. I think I literally stumbled in looking for some activity to do. And, you know, hanging out at the Student Center was fun. And then I think I stumbled upon, I do not know, the first time I entered the radio station, but then it was my life, and I remember when I was running for general manager. I just remember, like, just roaming around various dormitories, trying not to pay attention while people were voting, and then someone, I guess we did not have cell phones, but somehow, I called in and I found out that I had become the general manager, and that was a big experience, really. IG: 09:06 How old were you? But what-what- LF: 09:08 It was my senior year. So I started when I was 16. [inaudible] so I was between 19 and 20. IG: 09:16 Very young. And how large was the radio staff? LF: 09:20 Dozens, in my recollection, were dozens of people. IG: 09:23 What kind of- LF: 09:23 And they were much more professional type of DJs, radio people at that time. But I think I was the only one who wanted to handle the business end and, you know, get the money work on the budget, deal with the people. But that really gave me a grounding in, you know, the huge budgets I handled later in my life and the amount of people I managed that, that was the grounding there. IG: 09:50 That is very much [inaudible] so, you know, it is, it is, it is actually very remarkable that you were attracted to that. End of the radio enterprise, right? Because most people want to be DJs. LF: 10:06 Yeah. I also had a little show, but it was very terrifying being on the air for me. So I did not, you know, I loved it, and I was scared of it. Yeah, some people are natural. They just love to talk on the radio. But that was not my was not my main thing. IG: 10:21 What is it then? LF: 10:23 Like now, I like the socializing. IG: 10:26 So what was your little show? You said- LF: 10:29 it was a folk it was folk rock. I am trying to remember the name of it, but my theme song, I think, was Brown Eyed Girl. I think that that was the theme song, and it was fun. But, you know, I was really into having people do the news and special projects and, you know, we did have a lot of classical programming. But again, I have not been back. You know, I stay in touch with some of the people, but have not been able to go to any of the reunions. Maybe I will go now. IG: 11:04 We hope you do. What was tell us a little bit about the programming and what, what role you played in deciding- LF: 11:14 Oh, we had meetings. We wanted to have public broadcast programming. We could bring in shows real and you know, NPR shows, right that time, we could import them and use them, but we tried to have our own reporting, if possible, campus reporting, local reporting, but it was hard, because she had to get kids who to be reporters, right? Well, mostly it was music. IG: 11:37 It was much music- LF: 11:38 Jazz, classical, rock. IG: 11:41 What kind of what kind of reporting did you do? It was so it was Binghamton, LF: 11:47 Yes, local campus. IG: 11:49 Campus. Do you remember stories? [crosstalk] Do you remember stories? [crosstalk] Do you think that what was- LF: 11:57 I think it lost Because we did not record any of it. IG: 12:00 You did not record any of it? LF: 12:01 Yeah, I do not think it occurred to us. Or if we did, I would have no idea where they are. No idea. Do you know the name Ron Drumm? Excuse me, Ron Drumm. IG: 12:11 No, that I have not encountered the name. LF: 12:13 Yeah, he, he was around for years in in my recollection, he possibly was- had graduated while I was there, and then stuck around for a long time in Binghamton. And I think they let him stay on the radio. Ron drum, D, R, U, M, M. I could try to find him for you. IG: 12:35 What were some of the issues in that you were talking about? What was in the air, politically, culturally. I mean, you were playing music, which is so much a part of the- LF: 12:46 Yeah, I think [crosstalk] focus, right, a huge focus. I do not remember being, you know, politically active in terms of any wars, or where we were in terms of overseas actions or the Vietnam War. I mean, in high school, I remember protesting the Vietnam War. I do not remember doing anything in Binghamton, trying to remember when it was over. When was the war over? IG: 13:16 In the early- LF: 13:18 In the (19)60s? IG: 13:19 No in the- LF: 13:20 (19)70s. IG: 13:20 No, the (19)70s. LF: 13:21 So we must have been doing some of that, but I really do not have a recollection. I remember working for McCarthy, but that was high school. IG: 13:31 Working for? LF: 13:32 McCarthy. IG: 13:33 The 20- LF: 13:35 No, when he was running for president, Gene McCarthy was running for President. IG: 13:40 That would make sense. LF: 13:41 Yeah, that is the political stuff. But I do not remember political we were a bit removed up there in Binghamton. I think we all felt it. It was such a- IG: 13:50 But you were New York City kids. LF: 13:52 All New York City kids, you know- IG: 13:54 With the exception of your roommate from the Midwest. LF: 13:57 Right-right. But these were New York City born and bred, kids. IG: 14:03 So, you know, you were kind of more in touch- LF: 14:06 And she, and she might have been, most recently from Long Island. IG: 14:09 I see. I see. LF: 14:10 That is my roommate. IG: 14:12 You know, you were in touch and, and I am just, I am just trying to get a-an understanding of the climate, of the cultural climate, what, you know, you were playing this music, and did you have any- LF: 14:28 We were, I think we were, we went to we went to class. I think there was a fair amount of marijuana. You know, I smoked a little bit, not a lot, but we were post Woodstock, right, just after Woodstock, so it was kind of, I think it was still kind of Hippieish. IG: 14:49 Yeah, you were caught up by that fervor of the late (19)60s. You know, the you were the tail end of that (19)60s generation. And all that it represented. Did you buy into it? LF: 15:03 Absolutely. IG: 15:04 So what-what- LF: 15:04 Absolutely. IG: 15:05 What did it represent to you? LF: 15:09 Really, a feeling of optimism that we could accomplish a lot if we just wanted to, and we could have fun at the same time. But for me, I felt like I had to work hard. We all felt we had to work hard. Pretty much everyone I knew got real jobs, good jobs, corporate, academic, teaching, medicine, law, these were the jobs we got. You know, I feel like the generation now, my kids, 50-50, you know, friends, you know, some of them really want good jobs. Some want to work off the grid now, but I felt like we all felt like we had to get real jobs with real paychecks. IG: 15:56 I think that is more true of Binghamton students, rather than the interim generation. And do you think that in some sense, you know you said that you were optimistic and-and was your kind of youth culture bound up in music? Was, was that your way expressing [crosstalk] LF: 16:20 I think [crosstalk] to find the music. IG: 16:22 Rebelliousness as well? LF: 16:24 Yeah, I think it was defined by music. Maybe start for me, starting with Woodstock, because I was so young at Woodstock. IG: 16:30 And we would love to hear about your experience at Woodstock. LF: 16:35 So that summer, the summer of (19)69 I was a rising senior in high school, and when I was a junior in high school, I was accepted to Cornell's summer program, and I took organic chemistry, which I passed, but it pretty much told me I was not going to medicine, but I remember being in Ithaca and hearing that the site of Woodstock had changed from Woodstock, New York, to White Lake, New York to Max Yasgur's farm. And my house, my parents’ house upstate, was right next to White Lake, and I knew Max Yasgur's farm. And I said, “There is no way I heard it on the radio, thinking, oh man, there is nothing there. It is a cow pasture. They cannot have a rock concert, and there is no access. And I said, “But good for me, I can go, because I can walk from my house to Woodstock.” And that is, that is what we did at the end of the summer, when I left Ithaca, I went to-to near Monticello, which is White Lake. And Small Wood was the name of the town right next to White Lake where our house was since I was a little girl, and we probably had 25 people sleeping on our property, camping out friends and friends of friends, and that road that you see in the in the movie 17 B was just jammed, but all of the local residents worked together to support the crowd in terms of water and food. And it was, it was an it was like an invasion. And I think my father prohibited me from going, but I went anyway, and I had my girlfriend was with me, but we did it in a very nice way, because we could go in the morning, listen to the music all day, and then go home and not have to sleep in the mud, slept in my bed, ate my mother's food, and that was a lot a lot of fun. But my brothers also went. My little brother, I think was if I was 15, maybe he was 11, and he went with my brother, who was maybe 13, unsupervised. So he has written something about that, which is hysterical. IG: 18:55 I would love to see it, actually. LF: 18:56 Yeah, let me see if I can get it for you. I have not seen it in a long time, but I do not know if he is publishing it, but he cannot believe that our parents let him go at 11 to Woodstock. IG: 19:07 And then there was no and there was no prohibition of your younger brothers going. But yet your father had [crosstalk] LF: 19:15 Right. He must have changed his mind because, because I was going no matter. IG: 19:21 And he had no way of anticipating what, what was going to happen, what it would be. So, what did you see? LF: 19:27 [crosstalk] I saw all of, you know, all of the acts I saw, Joe Cocker, I do not remember a lot of the actual songs, and I was very happy I did not have to sleep there. It was kind of yucky and rainy and muddy. IG: 19:41 Did you like the music? LF: 19:43 I love them. I love that. I still love them. You know, I am not the kind of aficionado that you know my friends are. I still, I still love it. IG: 19:54 So you saw Joe Cocker. Do you remember who- which other singers you saw? LF: 19:58 I do not remember, you know, when I watched the movie, I remember, you know, I did not prep for this interview, but it was really, really fun. I mean, generally- IG: 20:09 1000s of-of young people. LF: 20:12 Hundreds of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s. IG: 20:16 Hundreds of hundreds. LF: 20:17 I mean, have you ever, did you ever seen the movie? IG: 20:19 Oh, yes, yeah. LF: 20:20 So I think so it is half a million strong. IG: 20:22 Half a million strong. This- that is remarkable. And was this, LF: 20:26 And it was all very- [crosstalk] IG: 20:27 True. Well, I mean, you are from New York City, so you have seen crowds before. You did not shy away from a crowd. LF: 20:32 Yes, this was unbelievable. It was literally Unbelievable. How many people there were and- IG: 20:39 And they were all young. LF: 20:41 Everybody was young. There was no in my-my recollection, there was nobody old. IG: 20:45 Did was that a life changing experience to be amidst so many young people, and they all stood for something, even if it was- LF: 20:53 It was love of rock and roll IG: 20:55 Articulated. LF: 20:56 Yeah, but it was something else, but it was positive. There was no, there was none of this kind of negativity that we have now in public discourse. IG: 21:06 Right, which is dark and- LF: 21:08 Dark and horrible. [crosstalk] Yeah. So in my mind, it was much, much more positive. IG: 21:13 Was there an idea that music maybe could change the world to a better place? LF: 21:17 Yeah, yeah, because it was so positive and fun, and really, really fun. I mean, that is what I am remembering, is that we just had so much fun, and I went back for the second day. I am trying to remember exactly who I heard, but I cannot. But, you know, I think that also set me on a course of wanting to see rock and roll the rest of my life. You know, so that I did not do as much as I could, because I had the kids, right, but I always wanted to, and then when the kids were older, you know, I went to see the Rolling Stones and Paul McCartney and Bruce Springsteen, of course. But no, I can distinctly remember seeing the Beatles on Ed Sullivan that I have a clear memory of in the (19)60s in my parents’ bedroom and just being mesmerized. IG: 22:09 Yes. LF: 22:09 Why? I have no idea of a completely mesmerized. IG: 22:12 What was the reaction that your parents had to them? LF: 22:15 They were fine about it. I mean, we were very I think in (19)64, I was 11, so they were not worried, or concerned. IG: 22:23 They were not worried or concerned as well. LF: 22:26 They were concerned about Woodstock, just in terms of fearing panic and stampede, because there were so many people knowing. And here is I have also a distinct memory of standing with my mother. My mother was very friendly with the doctor in White Lake. And I remember she and I were standing in the-the parking lot of the school in White Lake, the middle school, I think it was and waving down helicopters who were medevacking people out. You know, people have been sick or overdosed or- IG: 23:00 Overdosed, yeah. LF: 23:01 So I know she was working closely with the doctor at the time, just thinking in terms of Woodstock. IG: 23:08 But that did not happen- LF: 23:10 During- IG: 23:11 -on the first day. LF: 23:12 No-no, it was like the second or the third- IG: 23:14 And then they-they probably did not let you return on the third day, or- LF: 23:19 No, I remember going two days, not- IG: 23:20 Two days maybe not the third day. LF: 23:23 But it was, I know it was not scary for me. It was a lot of fun. Now, maybe I would be scared to go into a big, big, big crowd. IG: 23:33 You know, you-you could not have anticipated- LF: 23:34 I should go to the Women's March. IG: 23:36 What-what was that like? LF: 23:38 The Women's March here in Boston? IG: 23:40 Oh, this is just recently. LF: 23:41 Yeah, no, the Woman's March in January after Trump was elected. And every time I am in a big crowd like that, which is not often, I will think, "Oh, this is reminds me of Woodstock" Absolutely, especially if it has a positive energy to it. IG: 23:57 Good for you. And so feminism was, you know, an incipient kind of movement in the early (19)70s that I know. What was that- did that affect you directly? Do you feel during those years? LF: 24:15 Did I benefit from it? Absolutely. IG: 24:17 Yeah. LF: 24:17 Absolutely. IG: 24:19 But were you [crosstalk] LF: 24:20 But I never, yes, I was aware of feminism, but I also felt, maybe from my parents, you know, except for the money issue and the money, you know, goes through the boys, otherwise, I could do anything I wanted, you know. And I felt I could do anything I wanted. And I did, you know, with my career, I just kind of cut through a lot of the crap, and- IG: 24:42 Well tell us about that, and especially how you cut through the crap, because I think that- LF: 24:48 I ended up going to law school from the time in front of the box off the post office boxes in Binghamton, and seeing that I had a good LSAT score, which with my good enough grades would get me into law school. And I did get into Cornell Law. I said, I remember opening. I am going, "Oh, I can be a lawyer." I had no huge interest in being a lawyer, but then I got it, I grew the interest. So then I yeah, and I went to, I must have worked that summer in Binghamton. What did I do? I stayed in Binghamton the summer after senior year. So I must have done something. IG: 25:28 Were you working? LF: 25:29 I must have been working, maybe for a professor. I cannot remember exactly, because I remember packing my stuff. I did not go back to Jersey, packing up, driving the hour from Binghamton to Ithaca. IG: 25:44 Was it a world of difference taking [crosstalk] LF: 25:48 [crosstalk] an Ivy League school? Yeah-yeah. It was. It had a different vibe to it, completely different. But it was also law school, so it was much more serious. You know, I do not remember classes being a focus in Binghamton. I know I went to all of them, but, you know, can I really remember them? Not that much. If I went back, would I, you know, I, you know, youth is wasted on the young. You have heard that. So I wish I can go to Binghamton now, take courses there now when I would appreciate them more. But when I went to Cornell Law School, it was so tough, you know, then I just worked all the time. I did not do any extracurricular stuff the first year. The second year was a little better, and I worked. I remember, I got a job at Willard Straight Hall, which is the Student Center, and I was the manager of the student center. So I could, you know, student manager at night, so I could study, and I was in charge of all the undergraduates who were working there. So that was fun. IG: 26:56 So you, you enjoyed this managerial you got the taste of managing, from- LF: 27:03 From being a manager in Binghamton, [crosstalk] But also, I could study, and it was very quiet at the Student Center. IG: 27:09 That is what appealed to you. LF: 27:10 Yeah. And there were undergrads actually staffing the desks and rooms and the various activities. And I would just wander around every once in a while, and I was there if there was a crisis, an emergency, but mostly I could stay in the office and study for law school, which was so much work and so much reading, a lot of reading. IG: 27:28 Yeah, I could imagine I have friends who come to law school. So you were there for three years and LF: 27:38 And then I went right to New York. IG: 27:40 You went right- and tell us a little bit about this trajectory of your career, but also with a view to maybe mentioning the instances where you cut through the bullshit and how you did that, because that is informative. LF: 27:56 Well, in terms of feminism or just being, you know, just- IG: 28:00 I think it- LF: 28:01 -doing- IG: 28:01 -it goes hand in hand, right? Feminism and, LF: 28:04 Yeah-yeah, I did not feel maybe just because I was in the perfect year when they were opening up, you know, the law school for women, and then law firms were looking for women. IG: 28:15 Cornell opened its law school for women. LF: 28:18 No opening up the classes. More and more women were, I was not the first woman at Cornell. IG: 28:23 Of course. LF: 28:25 But I was there. I do not think there were 50 percent women in my class by any means. I think they are up to 50 percent now. IG: 28:32 And at that time they had, maybe- LF: 28:35 I would have [crosstalk]s it was more than a handful. [crosstalk] was not 50 percent but there were a number of women, but I did not feel like I was owed the woman. There were other-other girls there. I had a great roommate, also from New York, upstate New York. I am still friends with her, but we were very-very different. IG: 28:55 What part of the law that you studied? LF: 28:57 I just studied everything. IG: 28:58 Everything. LF: 28:59 The general [crosstalk] and then I wanted to do litigation, and I got a job coming out of law school, with the help of my law professors, I could not- I do not think I could maybe get a job all by myself. I got a summer job with the help of my professor--came down to New York, lived in New Jersey with my parents. One summer, I stayed in Ithaca, and I did research with a law professor on gambling that was fun and esoteric. So, you know, I have pretty strong views on gambling, which is, you know, attacks on the poor, big tax, especially casinos and lotteries, just rips off poor people. Really. It is horrible. IG: 29:42 I would love to hear about that. I never thought I would never and I do not gamble, but, you know, it is but LF: 29:50 Especially underprivileged, poor people will take their last dollar and buy a lottery ticket. IG: 29:54 I see, I see, in that way. LF: 29:55 -in the hope- IG: 29:56 Yes, in the hope. LF: 29:57 Hit it big. IG: 29:57 Of course, of course. LF: 29:58 About my view about gambling, and maybe I learned this from my professors, that you should take the dollar, put it in the toilet, have some fun while it swirls around. Have fun watching it go down the toilet, because that is the same as buying a lottery ticket. Chances of winning. And, you know, casinos just suck money out of people. So he was pretty anti-gambling, but he was working on gambling laws, and that was a lot of fun. And then I got a really good job, because I went to Cornell Law School, not because I was that smart, and also, with the help of my law professors, and I went to be a litigator. That was (19)77 and I did a couple of law firm jobs, (19)77 to (19)81. IG: 30:44 Where were they? LF: 30:46 Yeah, I was with a firm called Curtis, Mallet-Prevost, which is very white shoe, waspy and had a lot of fun there. Learned a lot about big litigations. But, you know, I was a kid. I was a tiny little kid still friendly with those people. And then I went to a very small firm because I knew I would not be a partner there called Hertzog, Calamari and Gleason; I was there for a couple years. That was also a lot of fun, but a lot of work. And then I knew I want to get married and have children, so it would be better to be in a bigger firm which had better policies for that. So around (19)81 I got married and went to a big law firm, and then had my first kid in (19)8- IG: 31:32 What was the big law firm? LF: 31:35 I am sorry, I went in house. I was at a big law firm first, then a little law firm, and then I went in house. That is what I meant in house counsel, meaning I worked for Chase, Manhattan Bank. IG: 31:45 Oh wow. LF: 31:46 So I was in the legal department of Chase, and I remember my grandmother up near Woodstock right when I told her I was thinking about taking this big job in you know, would not be as much money, but it would be an in a big corporation as a junior person in the litigation area, and she said, it is good to hitch your wagon to a big horse. IG: 32:12 That is, I have heard variations [inaudible] LF: 32:14 It is good to hitch your wagon to a big horse. So then- IG: 32:18 That is a great expression. LF: 32:19 Yeah. So then I was at Chase Manhattan Bank, which became JP Morgan Chase, and I was there 24 years and three months, IG: 32:27 That is my bank. LF: 32:28 That is your bank. That is a good bank. IG: 32:29 It is a very good bank. LF: 32:31 And I went from being the junior-junior person in litigation, and then I had a team, and we did nothing but subpoena compliance, which means the bank would get subpoenas, we would have to supply the records and the witnesses. So I did that for years, and then I started to get interest interested in money laundering, and I described it as I was doing the main work I was given. But on the side of my desk, I was helping the bank with money laundering problems, and I was studying the money laundering laws on my own because they were so interesting. And then there reached a point in time, you know, I started doing that in the (19)80s and the (19)90s, and then the late (19)90s, I went to the general counsel before September 11. September 11 is definitely a sticking point. You know, it is a mark, it is a demarcation. It is before and after. But before September 11, I went to General Counsel and said, "We do not have anyone who does anti-money laundering compliance all the other banks do. Why do not we?" And he said, I said, "Let us go to Washington. Let us hire like the head of the SEC and he can become the head of money laundering here." And he looked at me and he said, "I want you to do it." I had no interest or thought that I would do it zero. But he looked at me and said, "I want you to do it." I said, "I do not want to do it," because at that time, there was a big difference between being a lawyer, which had prestige and money being a compliance officer. You needed a law degree to be a lawyer. You needed a BA to be a compliance officer. You could be a lawyer, but you could be a compliance officer with a law degree, but you could not be a lawyer without a law degree. I said, "I do not want to do it." He said, "I want you to think about it." I thought about it. I said, "Well, if he wants me to do it, maybe I should do it." I came back and I said, "I want a big raise. I want." And he was very strict. His name is Bill McDavid. I said, "I want a big raise. I want a big title, and I want a big bonus." He said, "No-no-no, but do it for a year, and then we will talk," yeah, so I trusted him. IG: 34:42 Yes. LF: 34:42 I did it. I never looked back. And I became the head of it is called AML, anti-money laundering and terrorist financing in around 2000 and then we had September 11, and I was at my at my office on September 11, and I-I was an initial user of the Blackberry. Do you remember the Blackberry? IG: 35:05 Yes. LF: 35:05 So I was what was called a beta user because of my ex-husband’s business. So I was running from the towers and typing messages to my husband at the time, and that is published in the New York Times. You can look it up if you Google me, portions of my transcript were published in the time, so we can look it up now. I can actually send you the full transcript. IG: 35:28 Yeah, I would love to see it. LF: 35:29 Yeah. Do you want to take a little tiny break? Because I do not do it now. I will forget but have never looked at. Can I send it to you privately? IG: 35:39 Yes. LF: 35:41 Okay. [crosstalk] IG: 35:44 We were at 9/11/(2001). LF: 35:49 Running-running and typing. IG: 35:50 But prior to that, you were a compliance officer for your bank. LF: 35:56 So I was a compliance officer, and that is what I have been since then. So I was very lucky in my career that I had a good mentor who told me to do it. I did it because I trusted him. And I worked at Chase until another bank was in trouble for money laundering violations, and then I went there to the other bank, which was ABN AMRO Dutch Bank, and they were in so much trouble, and I helped them. And because they wanted me to leave Chase after 24 years and three months, just short of a pension, they gave me a significant incentive so that I could retire. After I worked there for three years, that was my first retirement. Then then then I retired and traveled, and then I got bored, then I went back to work, then I retired, then I got bored, and I went back to work, and that is how I ended up in Boston. IG: 36:49 What-what are, you know, the most important, you know, abilities to become a compliance officer for big banks. What-what has served you in doing this work? LF: 37:07 Being able to pay attention to detail and IG: 37:10 To financial detail? LF: 37:12 Not even well, detail of all kinds. I am not so great. I am, you know, people think I know how- about bank accounts--I know a little bit. I do not know that much about money, but I do know about managing people. You know, it is really important to be a good manager once you rise up in these levels. And I was quite senior, not just by age. And, you know, I think I did learn a lot of that in Binghamton. I have to say. It is a direct line. IG: 37:40 It was a direct line, and it was your first exposure to being- LF: 37:41 To being a manager, being responsible for a budget, creating a budget, implementing a budget, creating a plan, implementing a plan, a work plan, you know to do it before. You know now it is far more complex with many programs that are supposed to help you, but you know, we really had to learn from the ground up. We did back then. And now, you know that I was doing it for several big banks. It became easier and easier IG: 38:16 Well, and the people skills, I think, remain the same, or they become more refined, of course, over time. LF: 38:24 I do think you need people skills, and that brings a lot of people down if they because they do not have people skills. And it is just dealing with people, you know, I used to call them my day family and my night family, and I think I was kind of the same with everybody. I tried to always be true to my basic self, and same with my kids, husband, workers, bosses, judges, lawyers, everybody, try to be the same. IG: 38:51 Well, you must have had a very strong sense of self. LF: 38:55 You know such a strong sense of self, but a good sense of maybe right and wrong and how you should be, . I think, I do not know. I think so. And now I retired again. I think it is third or fourth time in May, and I am just doing volunteer work now for José Mateo Ballet Theatre, which is something I wanted to talk about that, because at the ballet. We say everyone has a dance story. And my dance story started in Binghamton. So my first roommate in 1970 when I started was Linda Berry. Still friendly with Linda. I am going to go see her in the spring, and later in the spring, in California, where she lives, she might be a good person to talk to. also. She has had a pretty interesting career. She went, you know, West, but when we were kids in Binghamton, she was a dancer, and she was part of the first dance troupe with Bill T. Jones. Do you know Bill T. Jones? IG: 40:00 Yes, he is a graduate, is not he? LF: 40:03 He is a graduate, and he is, of course, extremely famous, and he is a MacArthur Genius. But in the beginning it was Bill T. Jones and Arnie Zane, his partner--Arnie, has passed away many years ago, but his company is still call Bill T. Jones and Arnie Zane and Linda and another woman whose name I forgot, they recently had a reunion in Binghamton, but it was kept very quiet because they did not want a lot of press. And I think Bill did show up, but again, it was quiet because if Bill shows up, then there is a lot of press, because he is quite famous, and if you have ever seen him dance, it is amazing. And his company, you know, he is older now, so I do not think he I do not know if he dances. I saw him, spoke to him recently at a performance, but that really started my love of dance. And watching them dance was so amazing, just amazing. So then I became, you know, consumer of dance. I would go to dance performances in New York, and again, not so much when the kids were little, but then I could really indulge my desire. And a year and a half ago, I met Jose Matteo, who is the choreograph choreographer for Jose Matteo Ballet Theater in Boston. But that was just random. I was not looking for him. I met him at a party. He graduated from Princeton in (19)74 like I graduated from Binghamton in (19)74 and I said, I am going to retire again. I want to work with you. So I am on the board, and I do a lot of work, and that is where I have to go today, because we are getting ready. I am putting together a big fundraiser for him. And so now I go to a lot of dance. I went to 27--I worked for Jose 27 Nutcracker performances during the Christmas season. I took a day off, and I know this sounds crazy, I went to see the Nutcracker at the Boston Ballet. So the Boston Ballet is our main ballet company in Boston, kind of like American Ballet Theater, and it has, it has much greater budget, and it is a much higher level than Jose, but Jose really provides accessible, inclusive ballet, which I love, really, really love. So that is, that is how I am spending a lot of my time. And I have a big party coming up Thursday, but tonight, Boston Ballet, that is tomorrow. I wonder what I am going to and also, so I do tend to overdo dance right now. Alvin Ailey was just here. You know Alvin Ailey? IG: 42:41 Yes, of course. LF: 42:42 So I run. I realized he comes to Boston and I have to go to New York. I go at least two times when he is here. Instead of having a season like a New York season, he has a week along. IG: 42:53 I see and-and your role is in fundraising. For them, you have parties, you have- LF: 42:58 Fundraising and behind the scenes and [inaudible] performances. IG: 43:01 How interesting. How interesting. So did this- LF: 43:03 It is fun. IG: 43:04 It is fun. So I know that we are running out of time. Are there any- LF: 43:10 I am happy to talk more [inaudible] with you. IG: 43:15 But for now, do you have any- you know what-what are some of the most important lessons that you have learned from your college years at Binghamton that you can share with our listeners who are most likely to be students that would help them in their careers? LF: 43:42 I would say, maintain optimism, kindness, right, being kind to people. I really, really try to be kind. And when I taught my kids, I know it sounds silly, it is nice to be nice. It was a pretty basic theme growing up, and I felt it in Binghamton also, you know, be nice to people. You want them to be nice to you. Be nice to them. It does not always work, but I think people, if you are steady, they see it and act accordingly, not always. You know, there is always going to be somebody at work that is horrible. But I was actually talking to a young person I met yesterday at a party, they are having a hard time at work, and the people are horrible. I said, "Well, try to let them just go over your head. Do not engage, right? Like water off a duck's back." Try to do that. Try to see their point of view. It is not always easy. I think I learned a lot of that being again, yeah, a lot of fun. And the other thing I want to tell you before we stop is that I spent a lot of time with Andy Plump. I do not know where Andy is now, but he was the editor of the pipe dream, and he was my boyfriend when I was at the radio station. So we had the radio station, and then his roommate was Michael Feigenheimer. Do you know that name? IG: 45:02 Yeah. LF: 45:04 Mike might have changed his name, but he was Mike Feigenheimer when he was in Binghamton, and he was the president of the student body. So between the president of student body, the head of pipe dream, and the head of we like controlled the media and the student body, but we all laughed about it, because there was no real any, no real power or control. There is no real anything. IG: 45:23 I think it is best to be president of body that has no control. LF: 45:30 And I also remember, I remember talking with who was the president at that time. He was really nice to me, the president of Binghamton. IG: 45:38 I think I know the name. LF: 45:39 Dean somebody, no, there was, I would have to come up [inaudible]. IG: 45:45 So there was a culture of niceness, you know. Not- LF: 45:48 My recollection- IG: 45:48 Not only intellectual- LF: 45:50 And generosity, sharing and all of that stuff, you know. And was it because we were all kind of hippies? I do not know. IG: 46:00 It might have been part of the (19)60s culture. LF: 46:04 I should ask my ex-husband, who was, you know, in Binghamton also with me. His name is Joe Korb, K-O-R-B but I can reach out to him and see if he wants to participate. IG: 46:17 No, I do not know. LF: 46:17 I am just throwing out these names- IG: 46:17 Right-right. IG: 46:17 Yes. LF: 46:17 I have no idea he does. He has also a very good memory of those years. And he graduated a year before me, I think, or a semester before me. So, you know, we started dating then, and we were together about 40 years, and we divorced, so we are still courteous. It was, it was a good period, you know it set the foundation for the rest of life. Maybe I will go back. Do you know Mike Needles? LF: 46:40 Now, Mike is, he was not, he is younger, a little bit younger. He was not there during that period. But I think he was on some-some committees. He was he was asking me to come up and visit. So maybe I will do that. IG: 47:00 Okay, I certainly will look up. So do we have any concluding remarks? Or do you think that we are done for now? LF: 47:07 Concluding remarks in terms of the influence of the (19)60s? IG: 47:12 In terms of the influence of Harpur College, you any words of advice, any life lessons that you would like to share you already spoke about- LF: 47:21 [crosstalk] great, but it was a nurturing, inclusive environment, and that set the tone for now. Living in the dorm was amazing. I had never lived away from home. Well, I have been away for some summer things, but not much, and then all of a sudden, you are totally free. You can do whatever you want. There was not, I do not remember storm restrictions. Felt like anybody could sleep with anybody or do anything they wanted. IG: 47:49 That that is a very different Harpur College than the one described by- LF: 47:54 The earlier (19)60s. IG: 47:55 The earlier (19)60s. LF: 47:56 By the time I got there in (19)70 things were changed. Maybe I am remembering wrong, but that is my recollection. IG: 48:03 That certainly is very different from the (19)60s graduates. LF: 48:07 Because they remember the- IG: 48:09 They were restricted, restrictive environment. Exactly LF: 48:12 No, I think I was just there at a good time. Really good time. So thank you. IG: 48:18 Well, thank you very much. LF: 48:19 Happy to talk more and- IG: 48:21 Okay. LF: 48:22 I will try to send you the World Trade Center document. IG: 48:26 I would love them. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lynne Federman Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in the law; Harpur College – Alumni in banking regulation; Harpur College – Alumni at WHRW; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Federman, Lynne ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource For 30 years, Lynn successfully guided institutions under regulatory enforcement actions and helped create and implement anti-money laundering programs. At Harpur, she managed the student-run radio station, WHRW. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Lynne Federman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-04 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 48:26 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/008f61d49e0ca729173249242f843919.mp3 5d5d4cad0668732fca392595bf404467 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5228d1eb94e14f64f22d69ad8aa588db.jpg c9d63360b96fec76a9140d39f18badf5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Philip Nachman Year of Graduation 1973 Biographical Text Philip is owner of his Watertown, Mass.-based business, Nachman BioMedical, Medical Industry Exec Search, a recruiting firm for selling medical devices. At Harpur College, Philip created his own major in American studies, which included a class in Jewish-American literature. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Philip Nachman Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 4 April 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) PN: 00:04 My name is Philip Nachman. We are having this interview in my home in Watertown, Massachusetts. IG: 00:09 When did you go to- PN: 00:12 I was a student in Binghamton from the fall of (19)70 through the spring of (19)73. IG: 00:18 Okay, and how old are you? PN: 00:21 How old was I at the time? IG: 00:22 No-no. PN: 00:22 Yeah, I am 67 years old. IG: 00:24 Okay, all right, so, Philip, where did you grow up? PN: 00:28 I grew up in Troy, New York. IG: 00:31 Oh, in Troy. And who were your parents? What did they do? Where were they from? PN: 00:36 Sure-sure. Well, my father, Burton Nachman, grew up in Schenectady, a town next to Troy, and married my mother, who was from Troy, which is like 15 miles away, and he married into a family business of my mother's family, which was men's clothing store that had been there since like 1905 that her father and uncles started at that era. So, from your from- both of them have gone to college. So, I am not the first generation in college. I have an older brother, four years older, also went to college, went to Ithaca College. So very much rooted in upstate New York. Very much rooted historically in upstate New York. Yeah. IG: 01:19 So, they expect- what was the expectation of you that you would go on to college or, PN: 01:26 Oh yeah, yes [laughs] IG: 01:28 Yes. Okay, so education was valued in your family, absolutely. PN: 01:33 Yeah. It was throughout, yeah. IG: 01:36 So, what were your reasons for going to Harpur? PN: 01:39 Well, I had spent my first two years at another school at Hofstra University on Long Island, and I did not like it, basically, so I wanted to transfer. And was casting about as to where to transfer to. I frankly, do not remember why I knew of Binghamton, but accepted me, so I went. So, I transferred in as a junior. IG: 02:00 Right. But it must have had some reputation, a good reputation- PN: 02:05 I am sure it did, yeah, uh- IG: 02:07 -inclined to transfer there rather than some other school. PN: 02:11 I honestly do not recall where else I may have applied just; I am not sure. I do not know that it necessarily was I needed financially to go to a public university, although I am sure it helped. So, I probably wanted a liberal arts school. I was not focused on engineering or the hard sciences in Binghamton, while they had had and have that also was really known as a liberal arts school. And from a practical standpoint, at that era, the school was attempting to increase its upper-upper division students, meaning juniors and seniors. Therefore, they were making it attractive for people to go there in terms of admissions, not that there was housing for these students. There was not. So, I probably knew someone who had gone there something like that, but I do not, I do not recall exactly. IG: 03:05 Right. And housing, you said so, but- PN: 03:09 There were not enough dorms. IG: 03:11 There were not enough dorms. PN: 03:12 So- IG: 03:12 Where did you end up? PN: 03:14 Well, I had a cousin, who actually cousin a year older, who was going to Binghamton. Maybe that is why I knew about the place, and I crashed in his room, I think, on his floor, while I looked for an apartment. And in those days, there was no Craigslist, there was a bulletin board. So, I went to the student housing office, looked at the bulletin board. Someone standing next to me was looking at the bulletin board. They were looking for a place. So, we apparently, yeah, we found a place together. Did not know the person from Adam worked out fine, some apartment in Vestal. And uh- IG: 03:47 You found a place in Vestal? PN: 03:48 Yeah, I think, I think the first place I lived was-was in Vestal, on Reno Boulevard. IG: 03:55 Did you have a car? Or did you [inaudible] PN: 03:58 I think, I think, yeah, I believe I did have a car. Yeah, I did. IG: 04:03 So, what was your first experience of Harpur College? What did it seem like to you after Hofstra? PN: 04:14 Very different in terms of the geography. Hofstra was built on a former airstrip, ugly ascent [crosstalk] you know the place. All right, 14 story concrete towers were from the era of concrete is great. Let us use more of it. Kind of ugly. So, I in terms of the geography, let us say literally, and sort of the socio-economic world. Because of having grown up in an old, sort of semi run down industrial town, I sort of got it right away, as opposed to Long Island, which was really one big suburb of New York. And even though I grew up in upstate New York, I was not that familiar necessarily with New York. City or its environs. So, I sort of understood, literally and figuratively, the landscape, the sort of social landscape of the town, not so much the school, but of the town. So, I liked that. I think there was probably a lot of construction and a lot of mud. Everyone wore, all the students were sort of hiking boots, or construction boots and flannel shirts. That was the that was the uniform in those days. Part of it is that was the fashion. But it turned out to be worthwhile because it was a big mud pit. There was a lot of construction. IG: 05:43 It still is. PN: 05:44 It still is a lot of construction, yeah, I see from the alumni news magazine and all of that. So, plenty of long-haired hippies, plenty of drug, sex and rock and roll, which is probably true of almost everywhere other than maybe West Point. Yeah. So yeah, it was sort of a, yeah, a normal liberal state university anywhere in the northeast, frankly, or elsewhere. IG: 06:07 But did you find it to be stronger what we were strong, not stronger, but strong in the in the humanities and the liberal arts? IG: 06:17 So, who did you read? PN: 06:17 Yeah. I mean, I gravitated toward, American history, sociology, anthropology, those areas, and at that time at least, you could petition some academic board to create your own major. You would need to get an academic advisor. So, I created a major in American Studies, which was not a major at that time. It may be now, and other schools have it, but it was not a particularly well-known thing in those days. But that way, I could mix my interests, and there were plenty of courses for me to take, which I enjoyed, and I actually one professor who I believe is still alive in his 90s. Taught, among other things, Jewish American literature, which I Sheldon Grebstein, he later became a president, I think of SUNY, SUNY, New Paltz, I think, or something like that. And that really had an effect on me. That was interesting to me. PN: 06:37 Saul Bellow, Roth, those authors that were current at the time, Jewish American authors, right, (19)50s and (19)60s, basically. PN: 07:26 You read Herzog. IG: 07:28 Herzog. Yep. IG: 07:29 What did you read of- PN: 07:31 Which- IG: 07:32 -of Roth. PN: 07:33 Roth. PN: 07:34 Well, there were two Roths. Call it Sleep, Henry Roth. IG: 07:34 Yes. IG: 07:38 Right-right. PN: 07:39 Not a lot of people, necessarily [crosstalk] IG: 07:41 I have not read it, but I know. PN: 07:43 Yeah, all right, yeah. So, whatever his Roth has since gone on to write many, many other books, but Bernard Malamud probably had more made more of an impression on me. The Empty Barrel [The Magic Barrel], or something like that the whole bunch of them. So, they were very interesting to me in terms of my own Jewish American identity, and in an odd way, that is I was more comfortable in Binghamton than on Long Island. I did not know. I sort of did not know what to do as almost the majority, I grew up in this town that was certainly like Binghamton. And I was much more comfortable in upstate New York, where the Jews were a minority. I sort of understood the social structure. I did not know about poor Jews, rich Jews, and everyone in between, which you would have in metropolitan New York, bazillion papers [crosstalk] I did not know about that. So, I just felt more comfortable somehow. And so those back to the courses. So, some American history courses. Just, I think there was a civil war course, just, I probably could find my transcript in the attic. IG: 09:04 I am curious about the-the- was it only American, Jewish writers, or were there- PN: 09:10 In that particular class was happens to be that subject. As far as other literature classes, I suspect I took one or two others. I do not remember, it did not, they did not have as much. IG: 09:26 I am very interested in how that shaped your identity. That that, you know, a course like that could have helped, you know, build, yeah, well, the person that you are. PN: 09:39 It certainly did. I mean, it was very ethnocentric, obviously, but in a strange, in an odd way, it was very American. It was the American experience of these characters. And it did not make me religious. I am not. But it certainly informed more my identity, I guess. And I am not-not digging as deeply as you would like, because I am not sure exactly how to tell you think about it, um, just, well some-some of those books had characters that were living through poverty and, you know, in the Lower East Side, let us say, and discrimination that I may not have directly felt. IG: 10:34 For example, which, which of the books do you remember? PN: 10:36 Well, certainly call it, call it sleep. A lot of poverty, grinding poverty, and abusive or maybe alcoholic father who left, and all these things I did not know from that stuff. So that was sort of interesting, because it gave me a range of types. And the Roth books, which, again, had, I do not remember as well. PN: 11:03 Philip Roth. PN: 11:04 Yeah-yeah. Philip Roth, sorry, yeah. We talked about Henry. Now, as far as Saul Bellow, his characters were sort of bigger than life. Augie March, I think, and not him bolt, something like that. This guy who was in Africa. He was got of his mind this bigger than life character. PN: 11:25 Was it Herzog? IG: 11:25 Herzog, well, I mean, he was also a bigger than life a long time ago. But is not he from, you know, I do not think that he was born in America? He might be an immigrant from Eastern Europe, PN: 11:39 Possibly. IG: 11:40 You know it, but I know that it, it, it is just kind of a deeply felt novel- IG: 11:50 -of the academic experience, you know, and the Jewish American- PN: 11:50 Yeah. PN: 11:56 Yeah, I do not know about well this guy, I am trying to maybe confuse him with another character, but he was a little bit off his rocker, and he was just this roaring presence. Maybe [inaudible] I do not remember, you know, when did I read it, 45 years ago. [laughs] IG: 12:14 You know, they obviously- PN: 12:16 Stuck. Yeah. So, yeah so all of that sort of informed what I knew of the Jewish American experience was, which was in the people I knew. And this might be true of Binghamton, if you were Jewish and you had gone to college, or even if not, you were either a lawyer, an accountant, a doctor or you owned a retail store that describes my family exactly, my father's cousins, my mother's siblings, where we had a store that was downtown, as in Binghamton. A lot of the retail stores were Jews whose parents were born in Europe, as my grandparents all were. And which brings me back to that is why I just sort of got Binghamton. Even if I did not go shopping, I did not need to sort of go shopping. But uh, so that is what I knew. I did not know about Jewish taxi drivers, Jewish cops, Jewish firemen. I later, in Boston, many years later, went out with someone whose father who was Jewish. Her father was a captain in the New York Fire Department. I did not know; I did not know there was a such thing. I mean, it was totally, really, well, and then the others who were not maybe as well off as my parents in the milieu I just described, were clerks in retail stores, or they were teachers. Not a lot of ditch diggers that I knew about. They may have been there, but I did not know about them, but they probably were not. I mean, that is just- IG: 13:49 And writers. I mean, you were reading the writers? PN: 13:51 Yes, right-right, yeah. And it turns out there are colleges in Troy, RBI and Russell Sage and in the next town Union, so it is sort of a college environment, some of those professors were Jewish, and I knew their kids because I went to elementary and high school with them and all of that. So that is just kind of the that is what I knew the Jewish world to be. Yes, although an uncle of mine was a milkman, somehow that did not compute, yeah, but, and then later, owned a trucking company, but he married my aunt, who was a lawyer, very, really rare. There were two people in our law school class, I mean, 1920 or something. So, all of that broadened my understanding of the Jewish community in America. Let us put it that way. Did not mean I pursued anything or ever, you know, religiously, right? But somehow it just informed my being. IG: 14:46 Right. PN: 14:52 Now the other courses, let me think about that. I mean, I was interested in the American history courses, whatever they were, you know, I just thing- I am thinking about too. One was the Civil War class written taught by a very interesting young radical who later committed suicide. It was the strangest thing. Robert Starobin, you may know the name. He was this radical leftist historian of slavery, and I had him as a teacher, interesting young guy, and he later, well, I was not in his class anymore, but I was still at the university. He later killed himself. It was shocking and remarkable, and I did, actually, I have done a little bit of- IG: 15:38 It happened in your time? PN: 15:40 Yeah, it happened in my time. It was probably in 1971 possibly (19)72 and his father was a pretty well-known leftist academic right and even collaborated on. IG: 15:51 How did it impact you or your probably was the first encounter with suicide? PN: 15:56 Oh, yeah, [crosstalk] I knew it was baffling. I thought it was terrible loss. I thought it was because I may have borrowed someone's paper and cheated or something. I do not think it mattered that much to IG: 16:13 Yeah, but you personalize it. PN: 16:15 Yeah, I personalized it, you know, completely wrong. He had other, a lot other-other issues having nothing to do with me. But there was a funny scene with him, sort of fun. He grew up, I think, in Queens or something, so a city kid, and I think a friend of mine had locked his keys in his card, left them in the ignition, and I must have been so in the class, and I mentioned it to Starobin, and he said, "All right, here, let us see what we can do." He got a coat hanger. He went outside, he put the coat hanger, got the coat hanger in the car, like going sort of around, and threw the rubber gasket around the window, actually hooked the key that was in the ignition and pulled it out. IG: 16:56 Wow. Pretty slick. PN: 16:58 Pretty slick. That was very cool. IG: 17:02 You only knew how to pick locks as well. PN: 17:05 I do not know. IG: 17:06 That is very impressive. PN: 17:08 It was very impressive, right-right. And this professor who taught the Jewish American literature course described himself, and this is Sheldon Grebstein. There was a graduate. There was a TI in the class. He described himself. He was very self-aware as a middle brow intellectual. It was so interesting versus, I mean, basically the guy was sort of saying, I am not going to win the Nobel Prize. I am not teaching at Harvard. I did not go there. I know who I am. I am happy where I am teaching, etc., etc., and it was just so interesting to see someone that this is who I am. He was a very interesting and a good teacher. Was a great teacher. And he and I think his thesis was on some other American literature having nothing to do with Jewish I mean, basically that was an interest of his, among others. And I Googled him recently, and I to see if he was still alive. He might be. I had called him about two years ago to thank him for an interesting course 45 years. I left a message. I never got a call back, and I Googled him the other day. If he is alive, he is 92 so. IG: 18:18 92 he can be still quite active. I knew, I know. PN: 18:21 He could be, yeah. IG: 18:21 Yeah, he could be. PN: 18:24 So, I so getting back to the school have any effect, yeah. I mean, I am remembering these things with fondness. And academically, I was no academic star. I was not trying to get into law school. I was not killing myself. I was sort of a lost liberal arts graduate. I do not know what the hell I was doing. Many people did not, IG: 18:52 Yeah, many people did not. PN: 18:55 Yeah. I mean, you know, people who knew they wanted to be an engineer, in a way, it was easier. First of all, the curriculum is quite set. Secondly, they were really focused on it. It was really quite concrete. You either got it you got the problem, right or wrong. [laughs] IG: 19:14 Yeah, itis a different, very different. It is a very different career trajectory. When you know from the outset. IG: 19:21 Well, that is a trajectory. PN: 19:23 I did not have a trajectory. IG: 19:25 You know- so how did you fall into the career that you have now? What-what exactly do you do? PN: 19:33 Well, I am- I have my own business as a recruiter, headhunter, executive search consultant specifically for the medical device business and some pharmaceutical--Boston happens to be a center for that. I got into that because probably not so much when I was an undergraduate. But later on, I decided I wanted to save the world. So modest-modest role. IG: 20:00 Yeah [laughs] yeah. PN: 20:00 So, I wound up studying public health, because if you save the world, want to do it have a big impact. IG: 20:09 Yeah. PN: 20:09 Wholesale. IG: 20:10 Where did you study public health? PN: 20:12 The University of Florida, public health and health education, and, more specifically, gerontology. A number of years after I got out of undergrad. So, to me, that was a way to save the bigger swath. So, I wound up, I pursued that and worked at a hospital having to do with public health and training of hospital staff and issues of Geriatric mental health. I did that for number of years, maybe four or five, and then wound up getting a job for a medical device company that had a product that had to do with, specifically with the elderly, to enable them to stay home longer and not go to a nursing home, if, if they were- IG: 20:56 What is a product? PN: 20:57 It is called lifeline. It was like a beeper system for- get people help. The point of that was for me, having studied gerontology and having worked in a community health center where I was going out to nursing homes to do training of staff, there are people in nursing homes, or at least there were then, who are not there for skilled care. They are there almost for it is just a safer environment, and they give up a lot of autonomy, but they are afraid they or their children, are afraid they are going to be home alone and fall and they will be discovered a week later by the mailman. So, this was an F this machine, which was invented by a psychologist, gerontologist in Boston was-was to enable people like that or did not need skilled care to stay at home with some security, that if they had a problem, they could get help. And there was even a timer, if they did not reset it every day, it would automatically get them help. Very clever product. So, I said, “Wow,” that is for me. I was not interested in capitalism. I was not interested in machines, but I thought this thing was great. So, I wound up getting a job at that company. Took me some lobbying and sometime right as a field service engineer, which is kind of funny, because I am no engineer, but a big part of it was training. PN: 22:18 What does a field service [crosstalk] PN: 22:20 Field service engineer is someone who fixes hospital equipment, either in a hospital or in a field, as the title might sort of imply, and does some training on how to use it. Well, I was the training director at a hospital, I know, and I was that was something I was good at and liked the stage, you know. So, it was a relatively simple device, and I could be trained to install it and to fix it and to teach people how to install it and all that. And I was great at it. But a bigger part of it, and probably a bigger part of my success in that, was understanding sort of the milieu in which it would go, and liking the training part and being comfortable in and around hospitals, because I had worked in one, so I-I wanted to do something at that company, and frankly, I did not care what that was the job that was open. So, he hired me, and it was great, great experience. And then I was promoted, and I became a salesperson for that company and trained a field service engineer under me. This goes back to 1984, (19)81. God, (19)81 and I am still in touch with people I worked with. Startups are like that. There is a cause, you know, spread, of course, especially if you think the product has real value, you know, social value. So- IG: 23:42 What do you think that you know this belief in the product lent to your contributed to your success in sales? PN: 23:53 Oh, sure, I could not have just sold anything. I would not have cared about just anything. So, it-it related to the Gerontology stuff. It related to saving the world, even if it was only an elderly piece of it, uh- IG: 24:06 Which is a huge piece nowadays. PN: 24:08 Oh, yeah. So that worked out well. And then that later, to answer your earlier question, how did I get to do what I do now for a living? IG: 24:17 Yes. PN: 24:17 So, I worked for that company for three and a half, four years, quite successful at it, but I got bored with it. Single Product, same story every time. If there were technical problems, the same technical problems, right? At that point, I had already moved from Boston to Florida because of a promotion within the company. And I kind of missed living here, excuse me, so I happened to see an ad in the Boston paper when I was living in Florida, I was here for a meeting looking for a medical sales person, and I went for an interview at a recruiting place. And it turned out the actually the job was there. It was sort of false advertising. They wanted to expand the recruit efforts in the medical area. And they wanted someone who had been doing medical sales. So, I interviewed at this place, and then the guy came clean and said, actually, the job is here. I said, “What do you mean?” And it was almost like a Costello act or something, l IG: 25:17 A little bit false advertising. PN: 25:18 Yeah. I mean, in terms, in a way, it was medical sales. At any rate, I wound up working there. It was great. I moved back here. I had a wonderful mentor, a very generous guy who knew a lot about medical devices and medical stuff. He had gone to medical school for a year and had an MBA and decided I want to be a doctor. And wound up in that business, and great guy and I wound up working at this other company for three, four years, maybe five, and then I went off on my own doing the same thing. And that is 30 years ago. So, I have been doing this a long time, but it all. None of it was planned, believe me, however, these steps relate to one another. Even if there was no map, there certainly was no map. It had nothing to do with SUNY Binghamton. I can guarantee you, it probably had more to do with graduate school, where I was studying health related, IG: 26:13 Right, of course, of course. PN: 26:17 So that is how I got to do what I do. And I am not retired. I still do it, and that is- IG: 26:25 How did you trust your instincts? You know you said that you kind of none of it was planned, but everything was related. So how did you trust that your decision making in your career- PN: 26:42 Blind? IG: 26:43 -blind trust, or just you have a certain comfort for taking risks. PN: 26:48 Yeah, at that time, I certainly left a very good job at this lifeline system with base salary and bonuses and a company car, and took a job where I had to pay for myself to move with no salary, no benefits, no nothing. I do not know if it was out of my mind, but I could afford to do it. I was single. I could take a risk. I may not have even realized the risk. It worked out. It worked out fine. Not everyone can do that. A lot of people need to know that they have a weekly paycheck, I am just willing to live with it. IG: 27:26 Well, you know, for-for a somebody who is considering becoming an entrepreneur, as you, you have been for the last 30 years, what are some of the important qualities and things that you need to consider? You know, from your experience, that are most valuable for this. You said that you know you have to be comfortable without you know, having you know, an expected paycheck, or regular paycheck, regular benefits. I mean, what are some of the but what are some of the personal qualities that you think well, are needed? PN: 28:12 You have to be- have some self confidence that you can do it. So, if you are an electrical engineer, you have to be pretty sure that you are a creative electrical engineer. If you are your standard electrical engineer, you are not going to become a salesman, and vice versa. So, it has to be in a milieu in which you have already had some success. So, in the training milieu, when I was working at that hospital, and then in the sales milieu, when I worked for lifeline, and earlier in the field service and customer training milieu, I was successful. Having grown up in a retail business, which I mentioned earlier, starting in high school, I would work like summer or Christmas season or something, selling clothing, so the personal aspects of relating to people and presenting a product or a service, and explaining it, selling it, looking at why it might be valuable, it might not for someone, and if some and I will probably part of why I am successful at what I do is what I currently do. If the job is not right for someone, I will say, "You know what, this may not be the best thing for you." And taking a longer view of what-what works for people, and hopefully that honesty comes back to help you and not haunt you. IG: 29:34 How do you recruit people? Do you look on LinkedIn, or do people come to you? Or what happens. PN: 29:40 Keep going, all of the above. IG: 29:42 All of the above. A recruiter, PN: 29:45 Social media- IG: 29:46 Social media. Connections. PN: 29:47 [crosstalk] Forever, yeah, a lot, a lot of connections. In fact, I am going to a meeting this evening of a medical devices group, which is mostly engineers, and there will be a speaker talk. Talking about the latest whiz bang technology and why it works, why it does not discover about it. So being out and about and staying interested in current in the industry in which I am. IG: 30:11 I understood. PN: 30:11 So, if you are back to an entrepreneur, I am not sure in the world, because I have not started a company, I am the sole employee. I did not need to go to bankers to get investment money or venture capitalism, none of that. But, you know, not everyone could do it as I forget and you just reminded me, part of it is make sure if you have a good year, you do not spend like you had a good year, because if you have a bad year, you may need a nest egg and do not spend like a drunken sailor. IG: 30:48 Yeah, that is good advice [laughs] for anyone. So-so you know this is your career path, and you mentioned that you have a daughter, and tell us, you know, a little bit about your family. PN: 31:09 I got married late in my late to mid-40s, first time, and my wife and I, within a year, had a kid, which was almost surprising. We are both old, biological standpoint, my daughter's 19. She is a sophomore, and following the family tradition, she also transferred schools. She started out at Bryn Mawr, spent a year for a variety of reasons. It was not a great fit, took a semester off, and now is quite local at Brandeis, and is studying public health. Was so interesting to me things that were interesting to me in college. And she is interested in Planned Parenthood and women's sociology, women's health care, that kind of thing. And it happens to be really the right place for it. It is a very strong program. There is social policy, health policy and all that. So, I have got this 19-year-old daughter, my wife also had transferred from one college, to another [Irene laughs] and they are the two of them are right now in New York, going to Broadway shows. [crosstalk] Yeah. IG: 32:25 Do you- what are some of your- have you kept up with your interest in literature? Have you- PN: 32:31 Yeah-yeah to [crosstalk] some degree IG: 32:33 [inaudible] hobbies- PN: 32:35 As far as reading--I am a bigger newspaper reader than the book reader. Although I am in actually right now, for the first time, I am in two book clubs. My wife and I are in a book club together, and then the local library has a quote guys book club, and that is been great. I love it. [inaudible] I know, yeah, we might be 15, 10, to 15 people. IG: 32:59 That is quite a number. PN: 33:01 Maybe, yeah. And depending on the book, more people come and the librarian is a guy, which is also somewhat rare, I think. IG: 33:08 Yeah. PN: 33:10 It is a neighboring town, Errington, and it is great. I do not know these people outside of the group, but we all really enjoy it. There is a man do not have a lot of these outlets. I am not a sports guy. I do not go to a bar and watch a football game. I pay not to, in fact. So that is a social outlet. I do not care about this bonding about sports. So, this is great. That is a variety of books. There are librarians who find it interesting. IG: 33:41 Yes, what are some of the books that you have [crosstalk] PN: 33:44 It is a range. Some of them are we just read the memoir of South African comedian- IG: 33:56 Coitzi. Coitzi? PN: 33:58 No, he is on American TV. Oh, I love the guy. It will come back to me. I forgot. IG: 34:04 Yeah. PN: 34:05 Scary. [laughs] IG: 34:08 It will not come back in five minutes. PN: 34:09 Trevor Noah. IG: 34:10 Oh, I see that is right. Oh, yes, really, course. PN: 34:13 You have not read it. IG: 34:13 Yeah. PN: 34:14 Listen to it on books on tape. IG: 34:15 I have seen him on TV. PN: 34:16 It is wonderful to listen to. IG: 34:18 Yeah. PN: 34:18 More than even read because he is- does the reading. IG: 34:21 He does the reading as well. I actually, I love books on tape. PN: 34:24 This is, this is a great one so that we have occasional military history, although that is not a focus. Novels, just a range of things, one-one book. One of the best books was a book called The Boys in the Boat. Which Have you heard of that huge bestseller about the sport of rowing crew, but it is historical, because it talks about the 1936 Olympics in Germany? IG: 34:54 Yes, of course. PN: 34:55 So that was very interesting book. Terrific book. And I suggested a book. It was sort of my turn to suggest a book, I think, for July, called the Fish that Ate the Whale, about the- this immigrant who started pedaling bananas, and that was enabled because of telegraph its whole story wound up from buying essentially damaged goods bananas that were discounted because they were about to be too ripe, wound up as the president of United Fruit Company, which owned half of Central America. Very interesting story. Yeah, fascinating. So that is one I suggested. It will be in a couple of months. And then the one we Thursday, I guess that is tomorrow. Is the book club, and it is a book. It is upstairs, hopefully, I better all go up and get it, so just a variety of books. And that is- that is been- IG: 35:55 That is wonderful because, that is wonderful because not I think it is not, not everyone really gives time to reading. Not everybody gives time into- do you think that you know there, that you know this love of literature, clearly, you have a love and interest? Do you think that there is any connection between the literature- PN: 36:22 Come to think of it, those are the classes I remember. IG: 36:25 Yes-yes. PN: 36:26 Absolutely. In fact, if this guy had answered the phone, I was going to tell him that this retired professor become a college president. And my wife is an influence on me and my daughter too. They are speed readers. They read an enormous amount. I have never seen anything like it. My parents were readers, so it was not- IG: 36:43 It is part of your family. PN: 36:45 It is part of it. My father was a big reader, and in the newspapers which my wife does not read, so she reads more books I am interested in. I read three papers. The newspapers are practically going out of business, except for people like me, which is bad, because I am not young, you know, and they are the only thing that keeps the government honest at this point, you know, with investigative journalism. IG: 37:10 Yeah, I agree. I agree. And so-so, you know- PN: 37:17 I am going to run and get- IG: 37:20 So, we are back to talking with Philip Nachman, and we are going to talk a little bit about the political climate, the political issues that were predominant in your college experience. PN: 37:37 The Vietnam War was key, and it was raging still. Uh, in my case, I was in the first cohort of people who were, quote, eligible for the draft lottery, which was a somewhat more fair way of drafting people. And I had the distinction of being number five in the draft lottery. You do not want to be five, you want to be 360 so while I was in your while I was in Binghamton, I was called up for physical because I had such a low number, and I had to take the bus to Syracuse, where there was an Army induction center. I thought I thought I would get out for some physical reasons, but a lot of other people on that trip were, I am sure, sick with anxiety. So, I went to the physical, took the Greyhound, and I wound up getting what is called a 4f of physical deferment. So, I did not have to go, but I was considering my options. I was not interested in being shot at by the Vietnamese or shooting them, because, frankly, I did not care about them. They did not do nothing to me. I did not need to do nothing to them, right? But the times were roiling with Vietnam protests. Certainly, I am not sure how much on the campus. I kind of do not remember that, but it was, you know, complete. Well, not the voc- the vocal students were more on the left than the right, but not everyone else, I am sure. I mean, it was a, it was a town in upstate New York, in the county I came from, was very Republican. That whole capital district was very Republican. And I am, I do not know what, what Binghamton's landscape was at the time in terms of national politics, but I am assuming it is somewhat conservative. I mean, upstate New York could be transplanted to the Midwest. It has got essentially nothing to do with metropolitan New York. IG: 39:33 A lot of America, I think. PN: 39:35 Yeah-yeah. IG: 39:39 So-so, you know, so you said you do not remember any protests. PN: 39:45 I am sure there were. IG: 39:46 But what about your friends? What-what was the general mood? PN: 39:51 Oh, the general mood was anti-Vietnam, anti-establishment. Long hair. Do not trust anyone over 30. I mean, this was 1970. You know, get stoned. IG: 40:04 What kind of music did you listen to? PN: 40:06 Grateful Dead. I think they actually, it was a famous concert at Binghamton. IG: 40:12 I think it is (19)68. PN: 40:15 I was not, I think it might, yeah, they were still, I did not, I was not there at the time, people were still talking about it. Leo Kottke, I remember going to one of his concerts. He is a fantastic 12 string guitarist. There were others. I went up to Cornell for a concert with some group Traffic. I think it was called. Yeah, something like that. IG: 40:33 Remember the Nixon impeachment, the trials. IG: 40:35 That was in (19)73 impeachment trials, were not they? IG: 40:41 Yes, yeah. PN: 40:43 And I think I already had, already I had already graduated, because, as I recall, that was the fall of (19)73 and I graduated. I took, I was on the five-year plan because I had transferred. And actually, my second semester in Binghamton, I really was not quite sure what I was that I wanted to be there all the time. And through this major that I created, I petitioned for an independent study on the American Crafts movement, which was a hippie movement. At the time, people were dropping out, moving to Vermont or somewhere, and making pottery or building furniture. And there was an anthropology professor, Daniella Weinberg. I think her name is, who I asked if she would be my sponsor on this because I was looking at it from sort of an anthropological perspective or a sociological perspective with no brilliant framework, I will have you know, but so I literally hitchhiked around New England, talking to American kids who were, quote, American craftsmen. I wound up living for a while in a commune in the Berkshires. I was hitchhiking, and someone picked me up and going around to different crafts people. It was a very interesting semester. I mean, literally, I was hitchhiking. [crosstalk] You could do that. IG: 42:01 It was safe to do it when- PN: 42:02 It was-was for me. IG: 42:06 Yes-yes. PN: 42:07 So, it did not even occur to me that was no nothing, no big deal. So, I did that. IG: 42:13 Was it like living on a commune as part of your thesis experiment? It was a thesis or? PN: 42:19 Just started. I read to write a paper. I see, I do not know where the paper so, so it was probably only four credits, so I did not get the 16 credits, or whatever a semester is worth. So, I wound up graduating in (19)73 not in (19)72 I got out of high school in (19)68 if I had gone straight through. And that was fine. So, I was in no hurry to be an adult anyway. So that worked out perfectly, which was not uncommon in those days. I mean, IG: 42:51 To prolong your [crosstalk] PN: 42:52 To prolong your, prolong your adolescence. It was not my education. So, yeah, I am clear on that again, if I were a pre-med major or an engineering major, I would want to keep going. I would not be wandering around as much. So- IG: 43:11 So, what did you learn about this experience? Your anthropological study? PN: 43:15 Well, the professor had me read de Tocqueville on America having to do with American the American spirit and democracy, which was a big experiment when de Tocqueville wrote that a total experiment. When did you write it? 1789, or something like that? Well, what was funny about it is, I wound up in New Hampshire, standing in someone's yard. People would just invite you to stay and this so I met some guy who forgot if there was a potter or whatever it was. His father was a producer on the Today Show in Manhattan. PN: 43:52 No-no. [crosstalk] become- PN: 43:53 Back then this kid's father, he dropped out of college to do this. His father was a producer on the Today Show. So, it is just kind of not that the father's famous, but it is just sort of funny. Here are these middle class, or probably upper middle class, or beyond, in his case, who are dropping out, not going the straight and narrow, not working for IBM as a salesman, but doing this and that. Those were the times. Those exactly what the times were, I do not know that it directly had to do with Vietnam, but it did have to do with, I think, not being all that impressed or interested in just following the normal course of events. Because look what it got us. PN: 44:18 Exactly, breaking cultural norms and- PN: 44:40 That was the norm, was to break a cultural norm. So, in fact, the cultural norm was to have long hair, to smoke pot, to maybe have an organic garden. That was in that school. That was the norm. It would not have been the norm at other schools, perhaps, but on that ilk, in that era, that. You know, Buffalo was the same. IG: 45:01 So, you remember watching the American family? PN: 45:06 Yes, in fact, one of my professors actually a guy named Richard, Richard Young [James Young], who was a political science professor at Binghamton, that was our that was the centerpiece of our class, was good for remembering an American family. It was a screwed-up family. The kid- IG: 45:25 Very interesting. PN: 45:26 Oh, very interesting. I mean, pretty rare. One-one of the kids came out as gay, which was rare with the father. You know, the father, the mother accepted it. I am not sure the father did. The parents got divorced, as you remember, the father sold mining equipment to Australian mining places. So Young- that was sort of interesting, too. I had forgotten about that class looking at the structure of American society, and it was some would say it was dissolution. I mean, that family became dissolved. I have forgotten about his siblings. I think he was the eldest. He had a younger sister. I do not remember. I think there were three. Think there were three, three kids, but yeah, that was really of that era. And you know, the teachers, Young and Starobin, they may have been radicals, but academically, you could not just hand in some crummy paper. They were, they were serious about their work. IG: 46:26 Have you read their scholarship afterwards? Or, you know, they were, they producing scholarship of this period. PN: 46:34 They were young guys. They were very young. That might have been the first. They were in their early 30s, and then Young, I do not know whatever happened to him, but I later lived in Berkeley and looked him up. He was living in Palo Alto, and we went out for dinner or something, because he was a young guy, still sort of related. You know, I thought I related to him because he was only eight years older than I was, or something like that. I tend to sort of remember people and hold on to them. And there was a TA in might have been in an American literature class. I am not sure which one literature of the American city with a guy named Milton Kessler, wonderful guy who he also had an influence on me. In a TA in one of the literature courses. Later went on to he was doing his PhD. He wound up having a career in prep schools, which was sort of when you cannot get a job in academia. You do that. So, if you scratch the surface of any fancy prep school or all these PhDs. And then I about 10 years ago, I looked him up. We had nice conversation, and he was interesting because of an assignment he gave us. I had never heard of this assignment. Compare the same work as literature. I think it was this and in its movie form or something, that I found the most creative thing in the world. I had never heard of such a thing. PN: 48:00 Yeah, it was very creative. I thought he was a terrific young teacher. So, I had, I was happy with my professors as I recall, at least the ones I recall. Let us put it that way, which is good. I do not want to think of the bums. I am thinking of the ones that I that I enjoyed. And there was a certain amount of academic freedom to be able to petition this academic board and do this independent study, you know, the create your own major, and then even to take that semester off and get a sponsor, it worked out. I am sure my parents were worried sick. It worked out. PN: 48:00 At the time, it was probably [crosstalk] IG: 48:36 And, you know, and yet, over time you-you and I think that people of your generation return to very establishment type of jobs well after this, this period of great freedom and experimentation- PN: 48:55 Yeah-yeah. Well, you know, some may have become artists if there were artists to begin with, which that helps. Some you know one guy my roommate is a real estate developer in California, I think, pretty successful. Another one of these guys that shared an apartment with me became a physician, so they may have been a little more focused than I. so yeah. I mean, people ultimately need to make a living, of course, and some people- IG: 49:30 So, you know, from the vantage point of now, how do you look back on that period of, you know, breaking norms and going to communes and exploring, and this period of great experimentation [crosstalk] PN: 49:48 Personally, for me, for me, personally, it was fun and it was not very taxing, which might have been part of why I wanted to do it. But when I think back on it, there was a tremendous amount of social disorganization and dismay. Do not do not trust your elders. Look at going back to Vietnam. It was terrible. I mean, it was absolutely horrendous. What was going on and it largely kids in college were personally untouched, because it was a poor person's war. If you were in college, you got a deferment. If you knew someone, you got in the National Guard, as did my as did my older brother, because my father knew somebody. So, as I think of my high school class, and I was probably at a class of 400 none of my friends were in the army. When I look at the yearbook, or there is a like a website for my high school, and I see who was in the army and who was not, it was not the kids whose parents were college educated. No shock, you know, to me. So, it was not an equitable war. In a sense, there was a complete waste of life, terrible waste of life. And people knew that, and that is why all this social foment. Yeah, I do remember a march downtown in Binghamton, some anti-war March. IG: 51:11 But how do you think, for example, your generation, because of that experience, was different from your parents' generation? You probably looked at the world very differently. PN: 51:20 Oh, absolutely. My father was in the army, in the US Army, when I was raving and ranting about the Vietnam War once, and this and that. And he said, you know, how do we put it? Some people are patriots. He was not necessarily talking about himself, but he was saying, do not be so judgmental, you know. And he knew what it was to leave a wife and go in the army, drafted at age 34 which was not fun to be in basic training when you are 34 and everyone else is 18. He is already out of college 10 years. You know, it was, he did not get hurt or anything, but it was certainly a sacrifice. And he knew plenty of people in his company that died, or just people who sacrificed. So, he looked at it differently, even though he was a lifelong Democrat, I do not know what he felt about the Vietnam War. Probably in the end, he got disgusted by it, as most people who were not complete apologists wound up doing as the truth came out. I do not think we ever had heated discussions. I would rave and write naively, and this was a conservative Republican town I grew up in, so it certainly affected the air I did not know at Binghamton, I did not know necessarily, any veterans who may have come back. One thing that absolutely has stuck in my mind, when I was at Hofstra, there was a guy on my floor who was a veteran, and he was there on the GI plan, probably. So, he was older and more, certainly more mature and older than these freshmen. He was stuck with on us, poor guy, and we were playing in the hallway. We were throwing a football or pitch and catch or something, and someone missed. His door was open. He was at literally the end of the hall. The ball went into his room. He ducked the one under his desk like a grenade. I mean, I could practically cry now, when I think about it, it was so traumatic. Was just a baseball and but can you [crosstalk] traumatic this- IG: 53:32 This treated PTSD. PN: 53:34 Yeah, which I never asked him about his experience with this poor guy. I am thinking, what something I never lived through. It is what I do not know about. I am thinking, wow, I think he was rattled. IG: 53:47 Right. I think that studies of PTSD came to light because of the Vietnam War. PN: 53:52 Yeah. I mean, think of the drug addiction and alcoholism that came out of it. I mean, World War Two had its trauma on people too, but there were not drugs to addict, generally, other than booze, you know? I hope that guy is okay. So, I did not really know many people who lived through that, necessarily. IG: 54:19 It is in some way you are saying that, you know, do not be judgmental, because the experience of even the people that you are well, you are not opposing them, but you know they are participants in a movement that you oppose. PN: 54:20 Yeah. IG: 54:23 You know that their-their experience is- PN: 54:28 But I do not know that I was that mature in that time. [crosstalk] I would have, would I have quote, defaced the flag? Probably not. It is just a difficult time. And Binghamton was very lefty. So those who were, quote, pro war. I did not talk. I did not know about it that, you know, they probably kept, maybe they kept a low profile. I do not know. I did not get involved in it, you know, I did not get involved with them. I do not know. I was not terribly political. I mean, I knew I, you know I would vote, and I know how I voted, and all of that. I had my feelings, but I was not marching, or I probably did once or twice, but it was not a big part of my life. IG: 55:30 And throughout your life, you-you were not political. I mean- PN: 55:36 I was, oh, I am very, I am very aware of current events. I always vote. I think once in my life, I did not and felt terrible about it because I missed a date or something. I was American Studies major to not, of course, care about it would be remarkable to me. You know, in the current climate, I am disgusted. And actually, I have with my wife's urging, she is, she is, she thinks more than I do, that mass protest movements have an effect. So that we went to the anti-gun rally two weeks ago. I think it was in Boston. It was all over the country. It went to the women's rally and all that. And some of it, I think, is, I do not know how useful it is, especially in this state, because this state always votes to the left and the legislators and all that. So, it is like, who are you complaining to complain in Arizona or in western Pennsylvania? I do not know what it means here, you know? Yeah, it is disheartening. I mean, it is sort of like the Nixon era in a way, with the corruption and the cynicism on the part of the people in power. IG: 56:43 But there are probably lessons from, you know, I am sensitive about the time that I have been keeping you but I think that, you know, the (19)60s have something to teach this generation about, social organizing, protest, do not you think? PN: 57:01 Would hope, well, it shows that it can make a difference. Vietnam eventually stopped huge marches. Johnson was in the White House covering his ears because he had to literally covering his ears getting sick over it. Yeah, it is going to have an effect. And maybe, maybe these teenagers who have organized the anti-gun rally will have an effect. I certainly hope so. The really small number of-of fundamentalist Christians and NRA members have been hijacked from it being a sportsman's club that taught about gun safety to being a shell for an industry, it is disgusting. So maybe these kids will have an effect. I certainly hope so. IG: 57:46 I hope so too. PN: 57:47 Yeah. IG: 57:52 Any-any concluding remarks that you have, any-any-any advice that you have for you know, students, young people listening to this interview and thinking of what to do with their lives and how to plan their careers. PN: 58:09 Well, if you do not know what you what you want to do, it is hard to plan. If you do know what you want to do and you are definitely going to go to graduate school, yeah, study hard and get into the grad school of your choice. But if you are not that focused necessarily on a technical career, which is what rolls the roost right now, take courses out of your comfort zone. Take an art history class, take a music appreciation class, take something that you will live with, sort of like play a lifelong sport, not football, learn tennis. You know that if it is a liberal arts education, think of what that means and use it because you can enjoy it for the rest of your life. I mean, sure, get a career. Figure out how to make a living, become a technical expert, if that is what you want to be on something or other, or be a high school English teacher, if that is what float you know floats your boat, no question. Or librarian or a development officer. So, advice would be, take advantage if you are at a. at a Binghamton or any other liberal arts school, take advantage of the fact that it is a broad menu, and if there is a faculty member that you admire go to their office hours, they will appreciate it. You may learn something. They may help you get out of your locked out car like Robert Starobin [inaudible]. One thing I failed to remember. I did not forget it; you did not ask. I had an interesting experience in that I, quite coincidentally, wound up renting an old farm on the top of Bun Hill Road, if you know where that is, right. I was having my car fixed at some gas station on closer to downtown. And I needed a ride back to the school. Some lady was getting gas, and she was going to be heading back toward the campus. And I said, "Are you going by the school?" And she said, "Yeah." I said, "Can I have a ride?" This woman gave me a ride in those days people would do. And we chatted a bit. And she was living on this old farm that she said. I said, "Oh, that sounds really nice." She said, "Well, my husband and I are moving. Do not say anything to the landlord, but maybe you would like to rent it." So, I rented this farm. Old place was not being farmed, but this place went literally on the top of Bun Hill Road with a lot of acreage, broken down, old farmhouse for $100 a month, three-bedroom, three-bedroom place, and found met some guy in the parking lot who is my friend to this day, who said, "Yeah, that sounds like fun, yeah, why do not we do that together?" And his was common at the time. He had just gotten back from traveling in the Middle East, people used to go to go through Europe with a backpack. And he said, "You know, I would like to get goats. I saw a lot of goats in Lebanon." I said, "All right, let us get goats." So, we did dairy goats. We had three or four goats, and it was fun. Then we had an organic garden, and got credit for it. You could pull this act. There was a geography, geography professor, Ed Van Derval [Joseph VanRiper]. I think his name was something like that. He was willing to if we took, kept the journal and took notes, we got four credits crazy on raising, on having an organic farm. So, the guy down the road had a plow, and we- was a big enough plot that we had. We paid him to plow it for us, and we grew stuff. And we had this organic, I would call it a farm. We had a garden, a large garden, and that was fun. And the property still had some plum trees that were bearing fruit, and there were- IG: 1:01:55 How wonderful. PN: 1:01:56 And there were apple trees all over the place. I collected apples and brought them to the cider mill and Endicott and had them pressed and then sold them on the campus. IG: 1:02:07 It was fun. So, you were part of this. PN: 1:02:10 I was part of the hippie [crosstalk] IG: 1:02:10 But part of, you know, maker, I do not know that it was maker is now. PN: 1:02:18 That is now, that is making. IG: 1:02:20 Yeah, sort of, you know, yeah, back to the line. PN: 1:02:24 It is back to the land thing. IG: 1:02:25 And but that you got credit for this at college. IG: 1:02:28 Yeah, it is pretty amazing at a legitimate college and all that. So, it goes back to that American Studies thing I did when I was hitchhiking around talking to craftsmen and all that, that was really a back to the land movement. I so to an extent, while in college, I did that, actually, I have a picture to show you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Philip Nachman Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni working in the medical industry; Harpur College – Alumni CEOs; Harpur College – Alumni from Upstate New York; Harpur College – Alumni living in Boston Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Nachman, Philip ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Philip is owner of his Watertown, Mass.-based business, Nachman BioMedical, Medical Industry Exec Search, a recruiting firm for selling medical devices. At Harpur College, Philip created his own major in American studies, which included a class in Jewish-American literature. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Phil Nachman.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:50 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ce2e627f2a8747c7261af291eea4cf86.mp3 cb2f41afd3d39e075bd7a07f07ebedeb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/561c2d66ff533bb20b5a79f09156802b.jpg 9d6a1bea7886138291f5211f75838f61 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-04-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eric Lobenfeld Year of Graduation 1971 Biographical Text A ’71 graduate who majored in philosophy, Eric is a partner in Hogan Lovells US LLP in New York City. He specializes in intellectual property litigation. He served on the Board of the Harpur Law Council. At Harpur College he worked at WHRW as a disc jockey. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eric Lobenfeld Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Lobenfeld, Eric ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource A ’71 graduate who majored in philosophy, Eric is a partner in Hogan Lovells US LLP in New York City. He specializes in intellectual property litigation. He served on the Board of the Harpur Law Council. At Harpur College he worked at WHRW as a disc jockey. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-04-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Eric Lobenfeld.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-04-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 62:58 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a938abfe3835040b9164f6963622f9ca.mp3 a0b3d8c69f45b9f53b66efe174431bcc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Neal M. Friedberg Year of Graduation 1962 Biographical Text Neal retired in 2018 from his 49-year practice as a physician-hematologist in New York City. Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Harpur College – Sixities alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Keywords Harpur College – Sixities alumni; Medical school; Hematology; Civil rights; Anti-war Movement; Student life; Retirement activities Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Neal M. Friedberg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 31 May 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Testing, okay, I think we are good. NF: 00:07 I Neil Friedberg, class of 1962 at Harpur College, consent to this interview with Irene Gashurov and agree that it be part of the public documents about the 1960s and Harpur College. IG: 00:31 Excellent. Thank you. So perhaps we can start with your identifying yourself when you graduated, and what you do? NF: 00:53 I am a retired physician. I grew up in New York City, in the Washington Heights area, and went to the Bronx High School of Science, and I think that is what led me to be accepted at Harpur College in 1958. It was a new school at the time in terms of its imminently new campus in Vestal New York. In the year that I entered, most of the classes were held in former military huts that had been left either on the Binghamton or Vestal campuses or in Johnson City. It was a preferred school for me at the time because it was a school that I could afford and at the time, New York state and the federal government were generous with scholarship and scholar incentive awards, which essentially allowed me to go to school for practical purposes free for the four years that I attended Harpur College. IG: 02:27 That is a good introduction. Very good introduction. So, you mentioned that you grew up in Washington Heights. Who were your parents? NF: 02:37 My parents were second generation Americans. I am an only child. My mother was born in 1914 my father in 1908 they--my mother worked part time when I was an adolescent, but not prior. And my father was a part of furrier working part time when the industry allowed him to work. Neither, neither of them finished high school, I may add. IG: 03:17 That is tremendous. I mean, given your achievement. But did they encourage what was the culture like at home? Did they encourage your education? NF: 03:30 The emphasis was always on bettering oneself through education. IG: 03:39 So, you were in Bronx High School of Science. Did you show a predisposition to the sciences over what did you want to study? NF: 03:51 I always believed that my mother whispered in my ear from the time I was four or five that I would be a doctor. There was some precedent in the family. With one of my cousins, there was no other person in the family who was a physician. I always enjoyed science, but I always also loved literature. And there was a debate in my Harpur education about whether I was going to switch into literature, but ultimately decided that medicine was probably a better profession, and one could like literature independent of. IG: 04:39 That is a very wise decision to make at such an early age. So, what was your first impression of you know, I mean, you are a city kid, and most of the students were from New York City and-and Long Island, but there must have been a few from upstate New York, and so what-what was your impression of the students? NF: 05:07 At the time that I entered Harpur, there were only two dormitories extant. One was Refuse Hall for the boys, and I forget the name of the girls. The ground floor of Refuse Hall where I boarded each room had two people, two boys, and it was interesting that most of the boys were not New York City boys, but rather upstate boys with a couple of Long Islanders and as a quote, unquote sophisticated New York city [phone rings] IG: 06:06 Okay, so we have resumed with our conversation with Neil Friedberg. NF: 06:17 So, as I said, most of the boys were from upstate New York, and boys being boys, we would often assemble in a room and shoot the breeze. And it was remarkable for me as this quote, sophisticated New Yorker, how intelligent and in their own way, sophisticated these other young men were. And it was an eye-opening experience that has stood me in good stead over the many years, where, in the field of medicine, you meet people from all walks of life and all sorts of interests that I could find a way and accommodate my own interests and conversations to their needs. IG: 07:28 So, what kind of things did you talk about? NF: 07:32 Well, I think it was the common things that boys talked about. Needless to say, we talked about girls, we talked about the classes that we were attending, and we talked about the society as a whole. And it was, it was not a particularly violent period of time, but it was a rather conservative period of time, and I, having come from a New York City Jewish background with a fairly liberal parent and family based would often argue with many of the guys who had much more conservative views of what the society should be and was like. IG: 08:39 So, you know, what was a society? What was your what was your vision of this society and what it should be? Was it about diversity? Was it about, you know, greater democracy, reaching? NF: 08:55 Well, this was, I think, the major issue at the time, I think was still civil rights right, and I had always, even at that time period, time of my life, thought it was outrageous that there was still such animosity. And difficulty for the what we call the black population at the time, or negro population at the time. In 1959 I began to date a young woman at the college who was a freshman who was much more radical than I was, and I think she awakened in me a much more active role in the civil rights movement. I not sure when it was. I think it was (19)60 or (19)61 when the Woolworth sit-ins began. And though we were not in the south, there was indeed a Woolworths in Binghamton, New York, at which we sat in at Woolworths. IG: 10:23 So, tell me what I have heard of sit ins, but not specific to Woolworths, because they-they, why-why were you sitting in? NF: 10:34 Woolworths would not allow Negroes, Blacks to sit at the counter in their stores, and the counters were the place where individuals would sit and have their sandwiches or coffee, etc. Those kinds of counters seem to have faded now to a great extent, though there are still some around. IG: 10:58 Right. So, what did that look like? I mean, a group of college kids would come in and where would you sit? NF: 11:09 We would, we would take the seats at the counter and that order. And that, of course, undermine the economics of Woolworth's. Not of course, for the day or so that we did it. It was not a major issue, but it was a measure of the support at the college level for what was going on nationally. IG: 11:34 And so, where were you sitting in which Woolworths in upstate New York or? IG: 11:41 In Binghamton. IG: 11:42 In Binghamton Woolworths, New York. Um, was- did the police come? NF: 11:47 Good question, I do not remember. IG: 11:49 You do not remember. So, you know you say radical. I am just interested radical girlfriend. How was her radicalness expressed? NF: 12:02 Well, mostly in thought. I mean, I do not think she, you know, was doing creating bombs or things of that sort, or robbing banks, right, you know, anything of that sort. So, I think it was a philosophical radicalism right at the time. IG: 12:29 So, what notions you know? I would like to probe a little [crosstalk] What ideas did she instill in you, or she exposed you to? NF: 12:48 Well, I do not recall that. I do not recall particulars. I think what she did was to extend my own quote liberalism, maybe into a more substantive vein. More than that, I cannot say. IG: 13:19 Maybe to enact your beliefs or? NF: 13:22 Well, in the sense that, in the sense that I would go to a sit in, which is probably something I would not have done as the only child of anxious parents. IG: 13:35 Yes. NF: 13:35 Right. And as time went on, got more involved in the anti-war movement and went to Washington to march in the anti-war marches, or Washington in the Civil War marches. IG: 13:53 Was this after Binghamton? NF: 13:55 Well, I do not remember exactly when they were. It must have been while it while I was at Binghamton, because there was not a lot of time to do that in medical school. IG: 14:06 Right-right. So, what was that like? You know, a bus- NF: 14:12 Yes, bus, right. IG: 14:13 Students [crosstalk] or drove up NF: 14:15 Several busses would drive down to Washington and spend, I presume, the weekend, marching on the mall. IG: 14:31 With-with many other people? NF: 14:34 Yes, both people from the school, as well as the innumerable other people who would show up IG: 14:42 And innumerable other people were people like Martin Luther King, or any leaders there that you recall? NF: 14:50 Well, I seem to remember a Philip Randolph, and there was somebody else. Um, I do not remember attending King's speeches, but I might have, I just do not recall. IG: 15:14 So, do you think that overall? Well, you know, in 1958 Harpur College was just earning its reputation. NF: 15:23 Right. IG: 15:24 Because these are just the beginnings. NF: 15:26 Right-right. IG: 15:27 But what kind of you know was it already sort of the rigorous liberal arts school that- NF: 15:37 The-the- okay, the-the education that I achieved at Bingham at Harpur was much more in the desire for knowledge than the actual high-powered knowledge that I might have gotten at a quote, unquote better school right at the time, the Biology Department was vastly understaffed and with professors who were, for the most part, out of date. I think the best department that I recall was the English department. In particular, I had a wonderful experience with a professor named Dr. Wald, Dr. Weld [John Weld], I am sorry, Weld, who was just a remarkable professor for teaching both the drama theater and poetry and literature, very exciting. And uh- IG: 16:55 Do you remember what you were reading? Was it- NF: 16:58 Oh well for- IG: 16:58 -temporary or was it- NF: 17:00 -well, for instance, the Shakespeare course that I took with him, or maybe it was only a theater course, but Shakespeare was one of the plays, and he was teaching King Lear at the time [crosstalk], and he would stand in front of the class and say, "Do you think I could be King Lear?" And he was about five, five or five, six, and scrawny. And then he would get up on the desk, climb on the desk, and, you know, act out King Lear. And it was just a way of exciting students. IG: 17:41 Was he an actor at some point? NF: 17:43 No idea, no idea. IG: 17:45 The theater department, until this day is remarkably strong. So, he made an impression. And this is this, is this why you were at one point leaning toward, NF: 18:02 Well, I think the department as a whole, well, let us go back. I mean, from the time I was a small kid, I was a voracious reader. I would get into bed when I was, you know, 12-year-old, and take a flashlight, cover my head with a quilt so my folks would not see I was awake, and read under the covers. And I did that throughout that period of time, so that I always liked literature. It was a way for the world to open up to me, over and above the community I had grown up in. And so, when the literature courses at Harpur were exciting, it was a reason to think about entering that field. IG: 18:51 Of course, of course. NF: 18:53 But I was, again, probably a little smarter than I should have been, because I thought I was going to be a physician at Bronx Science. I took Latin because I thought you had to have Latin as a physician. And the sentence structure of Latin is so formal and convoluted that when I would have to write papers for the English department. I recognized that I was not a writer. And I thought you have to be a writer if you are going to be in the English world, in the literature world. IG: 19:36 I mean these, well, I mean it is, it is, it is a good recognition at the at the time, not, you know, but, I mean, these are also skills that can be developed, you know, but you just did not have the inclination, you did not have the inclination that is amazing. So-so this was your Harpur experience. And, um, you mentioned, you know the faculty that made an impression, but you were determined to pursue your medical career. And so, did you apply to graduate school right after that? Or and did you get any advisement from your teachers? NF: 20:20 I did not really need much advice from the teachers. IG: 20:25 Right. NF: 20:25 It was pretty clear that I had the grades necessary to get into medical school. And again, the problem of finances arose, and at the time, there were probably three medical schools in the state that were state schools. There was downstate in Brooklyn, upstate in Syracuse, and Buffalo. IG: 20:50 And Buffalo. NF: 20:51 Right. And I certainly had no desire to go into what was thought to be a what sort of should I say, Alliance pit in Brooklyn, where- IG: 21:07 Really? NF: 21:07 -where it was said that some of the students would change the location of the pins in the guinea pig or animal that was being, you know, dissected so that the students who came behind them would get it wrong and they would look outstanding. IG: 21:28 That is a really good story. That is a really it was that competitive, NF: 21:33 Yes, right, right. Whereas Upstate was not terribly different from Binghamton, except one had to live in the cold and nastiness of Syracuse. IG: 21:45 of course. So, you went to Syracuse. You went to Syracuse. So, you know, did you have any idea about specializing, or did you NF: 21:57 Uh, okay. Good question, when we started to think about specializing after the first year, which were all the usual anatomy, physiology courses, I think I basically decided that I was going to go into hematology, because nobody understood anything about blood, and nobody, none of the other students cared about blood, and I thought it was a ubiquitous fluid, and it also served one of the things that I really had liked, and that was biochemistry. Most of the other disciplines depended upon physiology at the time right and hematology and endocrinology were those disciplines that had an underlying biochemical foundation. So just to pursue that. So, when elective time came, I took hematology, and I also worked one or two summers with a professor who was in the Department of Medicine, but was not a physician. He was a PhD, learning some techniques of electrophoresis, but also going out into the community of Canandaigua County, is that Syracuse, where they were testing and looking after some migrant laborers that would that was taking place at the time, so we would sample their blood and measure different vitamin levels, etc. IG: 24:18 Did you find that they- NF: 24:20 I were in- IG: 24:21 -any way deficient because- NF: 24:23 I was not around long enough to find the answers. IG: 24:30 So, you know, you spent this rigorous you did this rigorous degree, and you probably were very much immersed in your studies, and were you paying attention to- NF: 24:46 -the rest of the world? IG: 24:47 Yes. NF: 24:51 I have no question, right. And it was also true that--I need to go back actually. It was in 1964 which is after my second year of medical school. In this in the second year of medical school, my good friend said, you know, the government is giving out a lot of loans. You know, rather than working at the local hospital, which we were doing at the time, perhaps it would be a good idea to take some loans. And needless to say, that the loans were granted. And he said, as we got the loans, you know, we have all this money. Why do not we go to Europe? IG: 25:38 That is a great way of thinking. NF: 25:47 So, so we did that and ran our full heads off in the summer of (19)64 and that is where I met my wife. We met in the Athens airport. IG: 26:10 Is she American? NF: 26:13 Yes-yes, she was doing the same thing I was doing. And so, I was certainly extending myself beyond my medical interests, but Kennedy got shot in (19)63 and Robert a few years later, etc., and King got killed. It was hard to not be aware of the chaos in the society. IG: 26:53 So, did you see that? You know how? How was it visible to you that society was, in fact, changing from, you know, the more I mean this. These are general. NF: 27:08 Well, this was, this was a radical change. As I said, the (19)50s were rather conservative and the (19)60s were rather liberal. And it was not only sexually, but it was socially as well. (19)53 had been the Board of Education thing in Little Rock as just one manifestation of a major change which was ongoing. I do not remember how many years it took for many of the other southern schools to integrate, and there were always barriers to that integration, from the governors to the local citizenry. I think if you look oh and (19)61 was Cuba, right? It is interesting. If you look at, look at Robert Rauschenberg's art, you see pieces of news clippings from that era in the paintings, but testing to the awareness and the sense that art was a contributing factor to changes in society. IG: 28:37 Yeah, I think that is I believe that too. That it always is in dialog with its time. What about the Vietnam War? You were in medical school, so you were kind of not impervious, but you were protected against the draft. NF: 28:57 Well, here is you are here is your real story. So, in the must have been (19)65 the war is heating up, and the military offered doctors, potential doctors, the opportunity to defer their training, I am sorry, to defer their entry into the military until they completed their training. Actually, maybe this occurred a little later, and so we were offered to go in as either a first lieutenant or as a captain when you finished your training. So, I did elect to take that opportunity to defer my-my entry, because maybe the war would be over, whereas colleagues of mine were going after the internship or first year residency, and then as the war carried on and became increasingly unpopular and embittering, I decided I was not under any circumstances are going to go. So, I had a few options, Canada, jail, or what I decided to do was to apply for conscientious objector status. Now, in order to do that, you have to prove that you had some measure of that prior to your deciding that. So, because of my anti-war activity, etc., I thought I had the criteria. And the military criteria is that you have to be interviewed by a military officer, a religious person, and I am missing one military, the religious, it will come to me anyway, all three people approved of my sincerity. That was the criteria. You had to be sincere and convincing. So, the military turned me down, even though I met the criteria. So, I went to court and at the what do you call it, the lowest level of the federal courts, IG: 32:00 The city? NF: 32:10 No, well, whatever- IG: 32:15 Where was it? Where- NF: 32:16 In New York. IG: 32:16 In New York City. NF: 32:17 Yeah, I was turned down two to one, so we went to the appellate court, where I did win again, two to one, and the military gave me a discharge. IG: 32:37 How long did that process take? NF: 32:41 Let us see from probably from (19)68 to (19)71 or (197)2. IG: 32:52 It is a long time. NF: 32:54 Yeah. IG: 32:54 To be fighting. NF: 32:56 Yeah. IG: 32:56 What- were you already practicing as a doctor? NF: 33:01 When I know well, that is not exactly true when-when I finished my training, I needed a job, and I applied to different institutions in the city here we were going to live in the city. That was a decision made, IG: 33:21 And were you married at the time? NF: 33:23 Oh yes-yes, married in (19)65 I had to tell each of the different institutions what the status could I could disappear at any time. And most of them did not care. I mean, they said, that is fine, yeah, you know, we want you. We will take you, and I took a position. IG: 33:54 What were you doing? NF: 33:55 Hematology. NF: 33:56 Yes. IG: 33:57 Still. So, what did that? What did that involve? What did your work involve? Were you an MD? You are not an MD/PhD? IG: 34:01 Right. IG: 34:01 No, just an MD. IG: 34:08 Just, yeah. NF: 34:11 It involved teaching, some administrative work, running the blood clotting laboratory at the hospital, taking care of patients. IG: 34:25 Right. So-so before you said that so institutions did not care about your wanting to be a subject and being snatched at any moment. NF: 34:42 Right-right-right. IG: 34:43 Because you must have impressed them with all of your training. And- NF: 34:47 Because I had good training. IG: 34:48 Right. You had a good training. May I ask where you had your training? NF: 34:52 Sure, when I graduated upstate, I went to Montefiore Hospital. IG: 34:58 Oh, that is okay. Yeah. NF: 34:59 And spent three, three years there, and then, including one year fellowship. And then I went to NYU and spent two years there. IG: 35:15 Did Montefiore, at the time, have its reputation of providing, you know, first rate care to the poor. NF: 35:23 Yes-yes. They are both terrific institutions in terms of care, of course, right. IG: 35:30 In terms of that. NF: 35:31 Yes, sure, yeah. IG: 35:34 Okay, so-so you know, the-the Vietnam War was your participation in it was you narrowly, kind of escaped. And so, tell us about, we are entering into the (19)70s. So, tell us about, you know what, what your life- NF: 36:03 So, the (19)70s were the time of my beginning my career. Yeah, I took my first job in (19)71. And I had my first child in (19)71 my wife, who is probably very much smarter than I am, who was getting her PhD in biochemistry, environmental medicine at NYU. So, she had a little more leeway, I think, in terms of childcare, but I was pretty diligent about coming home to see the daughter. See my daughter and our son was born in (19)74 and my wife, who kept looking at what I was doing and what she was doing, thought she really wanted to be a physician as well. So, after some contention, she went to she got into NYU in (19)74 in medical school as a sophomore, so she did not have to compete with all the new kids on the block. And finished, I guess, in (19)76 and became an ophthalmologist. So. IG: 37:45 So, in some way, this is the (19)70s, especially the late (19)70s, or the beginning of the feminist movement, but you were already practicing that in your married life. NF: 37:55 Yeah, a little bit reluctantly. I must confess. IG: 37:57 Why? Because you had expectations that she would take a different route, or? NF: 38:03 Well, I guess, because she already had a doctorate and to now go to school when we have, you know, a child in the crib and one on the way, seemed like a lot of burden would fall to me. IG: 38:27 You were the one to do the child rearing. NF: 38:30 Well, to a certain extent. I mean, we hired a wonderful woman who stayed with us for innumerable years. But nevertheless, there are weekends and evenings. IG: 38:45 Right. Of course, of course. So, did you-you know your wife when she became a physician, did you go into practice together, or were you working with a completely so what is her specialization? NF: 39:04 Ophthalmology. IG: 39:05 ophthalmology, of course. I am sorry. I am sorry, of course, of course, I am sorry. NF: 39:11 And we live here, yeah, we, we were living in an Edmonton here in a one-bedroom apartment. And then we came into Manhattan, because we both wanted to live in Manhattan, and we had a very nice two-bedroom apartment, but, you know, we had a boy and a girl, and we thought we would need to do something about that eventually. And we had taken, we had taken a European trip and went to Scandinavia, and she took a social tour while I did some other thing. And what she had learned was that in Sweden, you had to wait about. Seven years before you could get an apartment. So, she said, that is going to happen here. We better buy something. So, we have for several years. We bump it around, looking for something that we could afford, and then ultimately came up with this. IG: 40:18 So, you have had this in your position? [crosstalk] Well, that is, it is, was it a ground space like this? Renovate over the years? NF: 40:31 There was there was only this column, a kitchen here, a small bathroom. And perhaps, as a measure of the feminist movement, we hired a woman architect who was just wonderful, probably the best architect we have had since we have been doing things. IG: 40:55 It is a gorgeous it is a gorgeous apartment. So, did you, you know, did your activity- did you have any activity in politics, or you had no time for that? But you- NF: 41:11 I had no time, and I have no inclination. NF: 41:15 It is not that I am concerned about it, very diligent about knowing what is going on. IG: 41:15 No inclination. So, um- IG: 41:25 Did you did you keep in touch with any of your fellow students from Harpur College? NF: 41:32 Good question. The- in those days when we assembled in one room and, you know, shot the breeze, my roommate was a six-foot three tall guy who used to wear a red cowboy hat, and he lived many places upstate, because his father was in the military, and they would shuttle around. And I really got to like him. The irony, of course, was that he taught me all about contemporary American classical music and about Bach and- IG: 42:23 How interesting. NF: 42:24 Yes-yes. So, we remained friends for a while, and then we lost touch over the years, and then when our 50th reunion time came, I contacted him to ask if he was going to be attending. He was a scholar, political science scholar, well, particularly involved in Korea, and he was still a professor at the time. IG: 42:56 Where was- NF: 42:57 At UC Irvine. IG: 43:01 Oh. NF: 43:03 And unfortunately, he could not come to the reunion. He was too busy. But we have been in contact and visited since. IG: 43:12 Very nice, very nice. NF: 43:14 So, I saw him just a few months ago. IG: 43:17 Oh, here or in California? NF: 43:22 Actually here. Yeah, his wife has family on Long Island. IG: 43:28 I see. So, when you get together, how do you remember Harpur? What do you say about- NF: 43:34 Oh, we do not talk [crosstalk] IG: 43:36 You do not talk. No-no-no. NF: 43:39 You know, our lives have moved on. IG: 43:40 Of course, of course. NF: 43:42 I must say that I enjoyed attending the 50th reunion. I was surprised because I had not liked my reunions at Bronx Science. Had not liked them at all, and I was not particularly enamored of reunion at Upstate, but I like the 50th that. IG: 44:08 Why do you say that? Because of the kind of people- NF: 44:11 Yeah-yeah, right. IG: 44:12 Yeah. I think it is, it is a very strong group of people, you know, at least the ones that I have been talking- NF: 44:22 It is interesting that of the people that I remember, I do not know that anybody became that famous from my class. IG: 44:36 Well, you know, as I said it, from your class, from (19)62. NF: 44:41 Yeah. IG: 44:42 The class of (19)62 you know, I-I do not know about the class of (19)62 but I think it is sort of, you know, a quality of a turn, a certain turn of mind that, you know, people were very engaged in their time, and they accomplished something with their lives. You know, whether it got them fame or, you know, they wrote books or they you know, their circle of influence may have been, not as you know, not conspicuous, but, I mean, it was circle of influence in their community, but maybe it was not known about to you know to others. NF: 45:32 Well, you have to remember that the class, I think, had a max of 200 students, and by the second year, it was down to, I think about 105 it shrunk considerably through dropouts and transfers, I guess. IG: 45:50 Dropouts and transfers and the maybe the war, or that the war was true. NF: 45:57 No, I do not think so. Yeah-yeah. And also, there were, I mean, the male female relation ratio. There probably 65, 35. IG: 46:13 65 female, 65 male. NF: 46:15 Male. IG: 46:15 Oh. NF: 46:17 Yeah, there were- there were not that many women. IG: 46:22 And there probably were even fewer international students, minorities. NF: 46:28 Very few. Yeah, I think there were two black kids in our class. IG: 46:35 How do you think that your classmates remember you? NF: 46:38 [laughs] I well, I think other than the ones who I would have re met in the 50th most of them do not remember me at all. I was not uh- IG: 47:06 But what how do you think that they remembered, if they you know, certainly the person that you-you know, who teaches at Irvine, remembered you? NF: 47:16 Oh, yeah, sure. IG: 47:17 You know how did he you know, you did not really discuss how you each remembered each other. NF: 47:28 No, it was like there had been no interval time. IG: 47:35 I see, that is wonderful. That is a wonderful feeling. And you met on campus. NF: 47:42 No-no-no. We met here in the city. IG: 47:44 You met- NF: 47:45 You mean originally. IG: 47:46 Originally. You went to the 50th reunion, which was on campus. So- NF: 47:52 No-no, but he did not attend. IG: 47:53 He did not attend. NF: 47:54 Right. IG: 47:55 So, but- okay, so I was going to ask you, know, how was how did Binghamton strike you 50 years later? NF: 48:09 Well, Binghamton, I think, was a pretty rundown city. The two things I remember most specifically about it, or it had a wonderful art movie theater, and it was a very significant factor in my arts world, even to the present. And the second thing was it had a reasonable black community, and it was always fun to go down into the black community to the bars and drink there. IG: 48:52 Well, that is great. So, Binghamton is still a depressed city. NF: 49:02 Yes-yes, correct. IG: 49:04 It is still a depressed city. But at your during that time, there was, perhaps, when you were in college, there was more industry there. I mean, no, NF: 49:14 I was not aware of that. IG: 49:16 You were not aware of that. NF: 49:17 No, the-the, I mean, the only industry I think that I was at all aware of was the Johnson shoe factory. IG: 49:27 Right. NF: 49:28 And they were basically gone already. IG: 49:35 Yeah, I have met people who worked [crosstalk] NF: 49:37 And then IBM was in that area there. And in fact, the botany course that I took often would go to their grounds. The botany professor was a terrific professor, and I guess he got permission to meander. So [crosstalk] IG: 50:02 So, it must have been a beautiful headquarters that IBM [crosstalk] NF: 50:07 You know [crosstalk] IG: 50:09 So-so, you know. Do you think overall that Harpur College prepared you for your future career, not directly, of course, because- NF: 50:19 Well, what I think I started off with was that Harpur prepared me to learn. It made learning exciting and interesting, and whether it was the professors or the courses or the student body, totally does not really matter, but it was- did not quell my interest in learning. And I thought the social milieu, the excitement about politics and what was going on in the larger community of the US was I was very much involved in what was going on at the college at that time, and I think that was also very important in broadening my experience and opening my eyes to what was going on. IG: 51:23 So-so, you know, I am curious, how do you spend your time now? What are some of the pursuits that you are engaged with? NF: 51:32 You mean, as a retired physician? [laughs] IG: 51:36 Yeah-yeah, yes. NF: 51:38 Well, let us give a universal overview. We spend nine months of the year in New York City and three months in a home that we bought in California. IG: 51:51 Where in California? NF: 51:54 Santa Barbara. Not bad, huh? IG: 51:57 Not bad, not bad. NF: 52:00 We have been very fortunate. And so, of the nine months here, we also have a house upstate New York, so [crosstalk] we are just east of Rhinebeck, Hudson Valley. IG: 52:19 That is lovely. Been there recently. NF: 52:23 So, we spend weekends up there. So given those three parameters- IG: 52:30 You probably [inaudible] well, I mean from one house to another. NF: 52:36 When we, when we bought the Upstate house in 1973, I said to my wife, who has been the real estate agent in the family, "Well, it is okay. We will buy this house, but we are not going to not travel on vacation," and so we have traveled extensively over the years. IG: 53:01 Where have you gone? Some of the places- NF: 53:04 We have gone to, most of the countries in Asia, standard European travel. We came back from Safari this year in Botswana, Zimbabwe. We have been in Colombia and Argentina, Morocco. IG: 53:28 What stands out in your memory? What-what is, you know, what are some of the most impressive places that you have seen? NF: 53:38 I think if you spoke to each of us, the most exciting time we have ever had was in Cambodia. It was just wonderful. But sometimes getting out of the country revolves around people, and we have very good friends in Turin Italy who we see on a reasonably regular basis and go around Italy with them. So that is also wonderful having known somebody for over 50 years. IG: 54:19 You know, looking back at the decade, at the (19)60s, are you sometimes you know- do you sometimes recognize that you know the world has changed in your dramatically in your lifetime? NF: 54:38 We only hope to live long enough to see it go back to the (19)60s. [laughs] IG: 54:46 That is a great answer. NF: 54:49 I mean, that was the most exciting era that most of the exciting decade that I remember. IG: 54:56 I think so in in every way, almost- NF: 54:59 Yeah. Yeah. IG: 55:00 I think I would, yeah. NF: 55:03 But you had asked me in another- oh, and how I spend my time now. IG: 55:07 Yeah. NF: 55:08 Okay. Well, as you can see, I collect photographs IG: 55:15 Yes. NF: 55:15 Okay, and those the ones you are looking at are not the prime example of what I collect. I collect panoramic photos. It is my niche. I do not- IG: 55:31 These are these are prints. These are prints that you have on the wall. They are not photographs. IG: 55:37 They are photographs. IG: 55:39 So, do you go to galleries, or do you go to antiques? NF: 55:48 Mostly antiques. IG: 55:49 And where do you find them? In New York City, or all over? NF: 55:53 All over. IG: 55:54 All over. NF: 55:55 Yeah, so that is one thing. Secondly, when I started to retire in 1960 [inaudible] [laughter], in 2000 [laughs] Mr. Freud. IG: 56:18 Yes-yes. NF: 56:19 I started to play the piano, and I am not a very good pianist, but I enjoy it. So. IG: 56:29 So, you, you never had music lessons before? NF: 56:32 Well, I played the violin when I was 10-year-old for a couple years. IG: 56:36 Okay. NF: 56:36 I play golf. I go to a lot of museums and galleries. For several years, when I was in California, I worked at the Santa Barbara Museum in the photography department as a volunteer. IG: 56:58 How wonderful. How wonderful. So, you learned a tremendous amount about photography. NF: 57:03 Yeah, but unfortunately, the curator died. IG: 57:08 Have you read Susan Sontag On Photography? NF: 57:12 It is on the table on my upstate New York [crosstalk] IG: 57:18 It is an obvious question. NF: 57:20 Right. NF: 57:22 What else do I do? We entertain a lot. We have a lot of friends here, upstate, California, and then I am having my family. IG: 57:39 And your kids are- NF: 57:40 My daughter is in walking distance with her two grandchildren, and my son, I have to get on the subway and take four stops. IG: 57:48 You are very lucky. You are very lucky. NF: 57:50 It is really a burden, yeah. IG: 57:54 So-so, you know- NF: 57:57 I do not think it is luck. IG: 57:57 What? NF: 57:58 I do not think it is luck. IG: 58:00 You know, it, I do not think it is luck, but luck, you know, chance and luck does play a part, you know? I mean, it is, well, I mean, this is a [inaudible] NF: 58:11 They could migrate. IG: 58:12 They could migrate. This is a philosophical question. I think, I think, you know, certainly, it is a lot of what you have, the life that you have created. But I think that there is an element of luck or not, you know, it is, it is the historic it is the context in which the historical time in which you live, you know, it is the environment around you, you know? I mean, there are a lot of contributing sure forces that are outside of our control, NF: 58:44 Right. [crosstalk] IG: 58:50 If you were to, I would like you to tell us, if you - what lessons did you learn from your-your years at Harpur College? What would you like? What advice would you give to current students who listen to this tape? What-what are important qualities or, you know- NF: 59:20 The problem as I see it, in answering that question is the-the insular nature of our life compared to youth. So, I-I could say things that I think are maybe more universal, and the first one would be not to dismiss people who are so different from you, but rather to take in their experience and way of being and try to enrich yourself from the way they are. The second would be trying to listen to what people have to say, even those that are like you, if their views are different than yours, but not to be so passive as not to argue. My one of my hematology professors, who is a just a wonderful gem of a man, always said that you can always argue with me, as long as it is not an ad hominem argument. I-I guess the other thing would be, just keep on learning things you know your own enrichment is at least as important as what you do, because as you age, you need to, you need to be excited about the life you are living. IG: 1:01:26 Yes, and you need to fill up the spaces that that were taken up so much by your profession. NF: 1:01:33 Sure-sure. I have always told people who are getting ready to retire, because I retired pretty young was the hardest thing to give up. Is not the work you do or your clients, it is your comrades here that the, you know, two second interaction that you have with somebody in the hallway or, you know, is vital, is how you feel? IG: 1:02:06 Yeah, I-I could not agree with you more. And these interactions may be even more important for young people, you know, whose world is. You know, I well, I mean, I remember that in graduate school, my best education, my greatest education, was talking in a coffee house with my- NF: 1:02:31 Sure. IG: 1:02:31 -with my fellow- NF: 1:02:32 Sure, Hmm-mm. IG: 1:02:33 -students. So, do you have any- well, what were, for example, we can expand on this, what were the most important less, what was the most important lesson in your life? I mean, this is, this is sort of answering the question that you have just answered is NF: 1:03:01 Not answered. [laughs] IG: 1:03:03 You cannot answer it. NF: 1:03:04 No. Did not I not answer it? IG: 1:03:06 You did. You did. So, this is, this is not a question that we need to ask. So do you have any concluding remarks, any words of wisdom that you want to impart to our students, anything that you have not said. NF: 1:03:32 Well, I think yes, I would say that in the midst of your most industrious work when you are at the height of your career and apparently overwhelmed by the amount of work you seem to need to do, you have to have some other outlet, something that interests you, whether it be reading a book or taking a photograph or playing tennis or something, has to intercede in the times of stress. I do not believe in stress, so let us take the word out of it in times when you are busiest and most focused, I think you need to unfocus. IG: 1:04:26 I think you are right. I think you are right. Well, thank you very much. NF: 1:04:32 Just add one thing that I forget that have mentioned when I was in the twilight of my career, somebody from Harpur called and asked if I would be interested in not entertaining, but having a student from the college who was interested in potentially going into medicine. Would I mind if they came to the office? Had watched me work, and I- IG: 1:05:07 It is really good idea. NF: 1:05:08 I did that for a couple of years, and had a wonderful time. Just wonderful. The students had a wonderful time. And I did too, because it was like, invigorating. IG: 1:05:20 Right. NF: 1:05:21 You know, because it again. One, you are doing something, I think that is useful. But two, it is teaching. And teaching the young is just a wonderful thing. IG: 1:05:39 It is, it is, even when you were young and you are teaching. NF: 1:05:44 Yes-yes-yes. IG: 1:05:45 It is still a wonderful thing. It is still a wonderful thing. So, I think that we can conclude our conversation, and I thank you very much for a content full discussion, something to- NF: 1:06:07 Thank you. IG: 1:06:08 Thank you for- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Neal M. Friedberg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Sixites alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Friedberg, Neal M ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Neal retired in 2018 from his 49-year practice as a physician-hematologist in New York City. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-05-31 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Neal Friedberg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-05-31 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 66:08 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/65829d97b5e87e01bfb4eca9cf8f290c.jpg 96123d3f7b6889b06c9c8014011cfb05 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/84fb5c1eb3283eb5222bc550d5deccae.mp3 7bf130560ee93de761daf1a646bd58f5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Von Blum Date of Interview 2010-02-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He recevied his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He received his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 150:50 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Ku Klux Klan; racism; Communist; Paul Robeson; free speech; Anderson School of Management; Universities; students; Ann Coulter; Columbia University protests of 1968&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Ku Klux Klan; racism; Communist; Paul Robeson; free speech; Anderson School of Management; Universities; students; Ann Coulter; Columbia University protests of 1968</span> Subject LCSH College teachers; African Americans—Study and teaching; University of California, Los Angeles; Von Blum, Paul--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Paul von Blum Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 13 July 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): The first question I have is what were your ear early years, where did you grow up, where did you go to high school and college, and who were the greatest influences in your life early on? Was it parents, teachers? What was it in your environment that made you who you are? PVB (00:00:20): Yeah, I grew up in Philadelphia, so I am a Philly kid, but I grew up in a very politically active household. The family background was crucial, both in terms of my intellectual consciousness and my political activism. I come from a Holocaust background. My father was the sole survivor of his family. I actually have a memoir coming out in about a month and a half where I detail all of this. But my father was the sole survivor and very early on in my own life, it was perfectly clear that he understood that racism, that the same racism that killed his entire immediate family was virtually identical the racism that was oppressing the African-American population in the United States. Very early on in Philadelphia, I learned the kind of profound and vigorous anti-racism growing up. From early childhood, I grew up in a progressive family in Philadelphia, and I think probably the seminal event growing up, not in Philly, although I was born in Philly, we lived in a variety of suburbs, Delaware County, Montgomery County, and then most significantly, in Bucks County. As a kid, I went to the Philadelphia public schools and the variety of suburban schools, but the most seminal event occurred in 1957, one of the huge racial crises of the United States. The early civil rights movement occurred there in 1957 when I was 14. My parents and several other families broke the color line in Levittown. Levittown, as you may know, was one of the large post-second World war suburban development. My parents moved there because it was an opportunity for World War II veterans in particular to buy low cost housing. We moved there from Philly. What my parents did not realize was that Levitt would not sell to African Americans. I think we moved there in 1955 when I was 12, and by the time I was 13, my parents were involved in an almost conspiratorial way with a variety of other families, almost entirely, not completely, but almost entirely Jewish in meeting to do something about the break from the color line. By August of 1957, they had arranged for the first black family, Bill and Daisy Meyers moved in. The story of the Levittown integration crisis is well known, and in 1957 in August, there were huge riots, white racist riots in Levittown testing the entry of the first they called Negro family. I was the oldest of four children then there. Now, there were five. Another one was born afterwards and I was the oldest of the five, so I was involved as a spectator in all of the meetings. I was curious, so I went to all of those. I was there when the Myers then moved in, I was there when the mobs gathered and I was there less than a month later when they get Ku Klux Klan in Pennsylvania right across our lawn. In fact in December of 1957, I actually testified against the Ku Klux Klan in Doylestown. My activism started very early on and I saw the kind of vicious hate-filled white racist mobs. They called themselves the Levittown Betterment Committee. Even as an early teenager, I was exposed to the horrific character of American racism and those were probably the seminal events that molded my anti-racist attitude that have remained to this day. Still, I am a professor of African-American studies at [inaudible] and there is a direct connection between my teenage experiences in Levittown and my professional and activist life year. SM (00:05:07): I think there is a book that just came out on Levittown about that. PVB (00:05:10): I have read it. SM (00:05:11): Yeah, and I bought it. I got so many books I bought, I have not had a chance to read. Obviously, what a great upbringing in terms of learning early on and helping shape who you are, particularly when you see injustice and you want to fight it. Would you say that your parents were your heroes because your parents were taking the lead there? PVB (00:05:32): They were the daily role models. They stood up courageously and at a great cost because in 1957 it was kind of late McCarthyism. McCarthy himself had faded, but there was still a great deal of retribution against what was then called premature anti-racist. My father kept losing his jobs, politically inspired losses obviously, and that is what in 1959 of our move to California. My parents traveled in kind of left-wing circles, and so I was exposed early on to that whole leftist culture, not a communist culture by the way. It was a very radical culture, but my parents were never in the party. When I was five years old living in Philadelphia, my parents were active in the Progressive Party campaign by Henry Wallace, party Turgeon campaign in (19)48. But my parents, unlike many of the progressive party supporters, were not communist party members. They were in the non-communist left. SM (00:06:51): Yeah. I mentioned there, and I noticed in reading that you are a big fan of Paul Robeson- PVB (00:06:57): Extremely. SM (00:06:58): I want to tell you a story, but this is your interview, but I think it is important to the question. I know all about what happened in 1947 in Peekskill New York. I found out about this many years after my grandfather died. My grandfather was the Methodist minister in Peekskill from 1954, no, excuse me, 1936 to 1954. I never knew any of this because he died in 1956, but in reading the history books, I could not believe that my grandfather lived in a town that did such terrible things to Paul Robeson. PVB (00:07:31): It was horrible. SM (00:07:32): Pete Seeger was there with him too. PVB (00:07:34): Absolutely, so were other luminaries like Howard Bass and a variety of others. SM (00:07:41): I am a big fan of Paul Robeson too. He was a, what do you call, man for all seasons. He was town in so many different ways. PVB (00:07:48): Everything. I am the first person ever to do an entire university course on Paul Robeson and it is fair to say that from early childhood, I was introduced to Paul Robeson, not only as a singer but as a political activist. My parents said that they introduced me to him in 1948 at the Progressive Party Convention. I do not recall it, but from early childhood on, and this continues through my adult life, I would say that of all the people in America, he is my biggest inspiration. One for his extraordinary courage and two for his multidimensional talents with a sole exception of his problematic personal life, which I do not particularly admire. But other than that, he would be my kind of role model, somebody who was brilliant at everything he did and who had the courage of his convictions throughout the entirety of his life. SM (00:08:59): One thing I find about when you study America in the beginning, near a time when boomers were born after World War II, that period between (19)46 and (19)60 really is that many of the people that were persecuted, I think, whether it be the Hollywood Ten or people in government, professors in universities, all kinds of people, and Paul Robeson being one of them, is that many times the reason they became linked to the Communist Party is because that was the only party that dealt with the issue of race. PVB (00:09:37): They were among the best on the issue of race. Going back to the (19)30s, they were upfront about the Scottsboro case. My parents, they always knew communists. They were always fond of them, but they were themselves never party members. I have ambivalence about the communists, I have always respected them. And this is also generational, when I was born in 1943 and was very much active vigorously in the (19)60s, and so my generation of activists hardly ever joined the Communist Party. I always respected them for what they did. The other hand, I was never blind to their blindness about the Soviet Union challenge. I was always critical of that. I remained so in my teaching, I always point out about the Communist Party blindness toward the Soviet and Stalin's crimes, including Paul Robeson. I am well respected in the ropes and community, but I have never been reluctant to criticize him for his own blindness about Stalin and the Soviet Union. SM (00:10:53): Would not you say though that there was some truth in that late (19)40s and 1950s, maybe even the first few years of the (19)60s, that the people that had some people who had been communists really disliked Stalin, disliked him immensely. They only cared about the issue of race, so, and they got caught up on being blamed for liking the communist system, which they did not. PVB (00:11:16): Sure. Now, there were some like that. There were well-meaning people and I continued to have respect for a lot of them. Many of those people are no longer around. I mean, that is generational. Many of them have passed along. I concur with that. SM (00:11:34): I want you to put your teacher's cap on now because I have some really cross questions to ask about you, not as a student now, but as a young professor in the (19)60s and (19)70s. As a teacher, beginning at Berkeley in the (19)60s through today at UCLA, what in your view, did the university learn from student activism and protests on their campuses? PVB (00:12:00): They did not learn enough. This is extremely important to me. I went to Berkeley in the (19)60s, was very active in the free speech movement, and I think that was one of the moral highlights of the entire history of the University of California. Beyond the specific issue of free speech, what we tried to do in the free speech movement at Berkeley was to reform the university so that it would make the big prestigious research universities to make undergraduate education a much higher priority. As a personal academic, 42 years standing, that has been my highest priority. I am sorry to say that at the institutional level, I have not been particularly successful. At the individual level, I have been spectacularly successful. But the university's priorities have at places like at the University of California, the University of Wisconsin and Michigan, places like that, by and large, they are indifferent to the needs of undergraduate students. What they have learned from the (19)60s, unfortunately, is how to be more clever at containing student protests. SM (00:13:20): Yeah, they are much more subtle, so to speak. PVB (00:13:25): They are. With a couple of exceptions, they no longer bring in the police and the storm troopers to beat people up. They have learned to be much more adaptable, they have learned how to pat students on the head and referred things to committees that never do anything. They no longer use the tactics of brutality that they used when I was a student. SM (00:13:53): What I find interesting, and I do not know about every campus here just from what I know, is that universities have designated spaces where students can protest. Obviously, you do not want them in front of a building when a person's teaching a class, so I think one of them they had learned that disrupt classes time is not the right thing to do. It creates a negative image. But if I were a student today, knowing what happened back then, I would be protesting. The fact that I have to... This is my space, it is the only place that kind of- PVB (00:14:37): Some schools have attempted to do that. Universities are within their constitutional rights that say that there is certain places you cannot... You cannot walk into a professor's class right in the middle of a class because any public entity has legitimate time, place mannered regulations. On the other hand, you cannot just take one small part of a campus and say, this is your free speech area. That violate the First Amendment. I should add here, I am not sure when you have looked me up, I am also a lawyer. SM (00:15:06): No. PVB (00:15:08): I know something about the First Amendment. I have an undercurrent of political legal experience. It is not a major part of my professional or personal identity, but I paid $410 a year to keep my state bar membership up. SM (00:15:24): Well, that is good. PVB (00:15:25): But I know something about this. SM (00:15:27): Yeah, I remember recently in the interview process, I interviewed Dr. Arthur Chickering. I do not know if you know him. PVB (00:15:33): Yeah, he has done a lot of writing on higher ed. SM (00:15:37): He wrote Education and Identity, the Seven Vectors of Development, and he is anything but a radical. He is retired now but I asked him in the interview, is there anything in the universities today that you regret or any thoughts? He says, "Yes, I regret the corporate takeover again of universities." PVB (00:15:59): That is a huge problem and it is moving vigorously in that direction, and I regret it profoundly. SM (00:16:08): These are some specific things here. Now, what did you learn from the free speech movement itself in (19)64 and (19)65? PVB (00:16:15): What I learned was that in order to get anything done in a university, you need sustained collective action. I know from my own career that the successful mobilization of student power can be extremely effective. There have been several instances in my own unusual career trajectory when I have been under attack by university authorities, where I have been able to mobilize student power. It is not so much that they have saved me, which they have, but they have been able to mobilize on behalf of the educational ideals that I have represented for over 40 years. SM (00:16:59): Obviously, these are all issues that were important in the (19)60s and (19)70s. It was even still, some of these things were happening in the (19)80s and (19)90s, but seemed to not be happening today. What did the universities learn about military recruits on campus because they were back? PVB (00:17:14): They were back. I remember both as a students, as young faculty member at Berkeley, we tried to resist that. It is an ongoing problem. At a place like UCLA, we do not have a lot of military recruitment. Basically today, military recruiting is done in working class and neighborhoods where you have a proportion of very poor people and especially people of color. It is not as huge deal as it was because we do not have a draft. SM (00:17:49): We have already talked about this, but what did they learn about too much corporate control or respect to fundraising, which fundraising is such a big thing that the presidents do at all universities, so they may have control over speakers or ideas. Just your thoughts on fundraising within universities today- PVB (00:18:09): That is all basically all they really care about, it is money, and increasingly, you have a corporate dominated university, even a public university, which remains a public entity, you now have corporate sponsorship of research projects, you have corporate sponsorship of athletic programs, you have corporate sponsorship. Even of buildings in the new school of management is now the Anderson School of Management, expect soon with this trajectory that they will start naming the restrooms after- SM (00:18:48): Yeah. I was joking after spending 22 years at a university, and I said, "Well, I wonder what they had put my name on." I think someone joke and said, "Gee, you might get a stall in one of the restrooms," but it would still cost at least a minimum of 10 grand. PVB (00:19:06): 10 grand. I was thinking that would cost me that for a urinal. SM (00:19:12): Good. Who knows? What do you think the universities learned from activist students, the concept of student empowerment? Because students have power today because they control budgets, and I know that students are somewhat linked to presidents overall. Presidents are trying to link up with students more and more. There is a really good website yesterday on CNBC about the president of George Washington University trying to get close to his students. PVB (00:19:40): Yeah, I hope I do not sound excessively cynical, but it seems to me that universities have learned and effectively how-to co-op their students. What they do is they take student leaders to lunch, they promise them letters of recommendation for law school, they bring them to banquets. They do a variety of things in order to neutralize them, in order to keep them from becoming basically a significant effect of oppositional element. Students and administrations are naturally and should be naturally at odds with one another, but university administrators become increasingly sophisticated at muting those tensions. It varies obviously from campus to campus year to year, but they have done a basically good job of keeping student oppositional forces. Although, sometimes they cannot do very much, much about it. Last November, for example, when the regents of the University of California hit the students with a 33, 34 percent fee increase, there were huge rallies throughout the university, and I was one of the speakers. I am an effective public speaker and I will continue to do that a long time to come. SM (00:21:12): In some sense, the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s really did not fear about being active with respect to getting a job whereas the students of the day, if they act, they might not get the recommendations they need to- PVB (00:21:26): Yeah, they are very worried. I understand that it is a tough economy. I have a lot of friends who are very, very active 40 years ago, and many of them remain as I do, very politically active, and we talk about these things. We were never really concerned about what the implications would be, we were out on the streets doing what we did with very minimal concern about what the future implications of our activism would be. That is not the case with a lot of young people today. When I tell them that I got arrested several times, they say, "But did not it hurt your career?" I said, "Obviously, it did not hurt my career. I am standing in front of you in a classroom." SM (00:22:14): What did the universities learn from Kent State and Jackson State in 1970? I am going to preface this with just a comment. PVB (00:22:25): Go ahead. SM (00:22:26): You never hear about it. PVB (00:22:27): No, you never hear about it. My students have occasionally heard of Kent State, they have never heard of Jackson State. Never. Every time I mentioned Jackson state, it is absolutely new. I think what the universities have learned is that in both cases, it was a public relations disaster. They have learned to take all kinds of steps, never to replicate that again. It is extremely unlikely that we will ever see that kind of fatality on a university campus of that magnitude. They will never let that happen again. SM (00:23:05): What do you think the university has learned from controversial speakers on campus? One of the criticisms of the new left today is that the controversial speakers that were on college campuses in the (19)60s and (19)70s, whether Kathleen Cleaver, the Black Panthers or like that, some of the universities did not really like for public relations reasons, has now shifted where the new left of liberal professors and administrators do not like conservative speakers on campus like Ann Coulter and Michelle Malkin. Really, what the liberals are doing is exactly what the administrators were thinking back in the (19)60s. What are your thoughts? PVB (00:23:49): I am a strong believer in free speech and where you have leftist attempts to censor people, I would resist that. Having said that, there is no particular reason to ask a Michelle Malkin or an Ann Coulter to come to her university. They have nothing to offer. I have no problem with having thoughtful conservatives, and there are many, but neither Ann Coulter nor Michelle Malkin fall into that category. They are not serious thinkers. SM (00:24:21): How about Pat Buchanan and Bay Buchanan? PVB (00:24:25): They would be worth hearing. I would easily chop either of them up in a debate, but I would not debate an Ann Coulter. The last time I had a debate with somebody as that, I debated the former Congressman William Dannemeyer from Orange County, he was a moron. I could have had a lobotomy and beaten him in the debate. If you are going to have a debate, you should have somebody of reasonable stature and somebody who is not a buffoon like Ann Coulter. SM (00:25:01): I know that the two that seem to have the greatest strengths is William Bennett and Dinesh D'Souza because they are... PVB (00:25:08): They are smart enough so that they are entitled to make a debate. I just dislike both. I do not know either of them, but I just like their position but either of them would be a significantly worthy adversary. SM (00:25:26): I am almost done with this little thing, these are all important. What did they learn from Columbia University? What happened there and the Harvard Yard and protests? PVB (00:25:37): Oh, they have learned to be much more clever. It is extremely unlikely that you will have another Columbia in (19)68. Today's administrators are just a lot more clever than they were a couple of generations. That is going to happen again. They know how to do it, they have become much more patient. They have social control experts and they just know what they are doing more. In some respect, we would be better off if we had better have these more vigorous confrontations, but we will not. SM (00:26:21): What did we learn from, and this happened on my campus, Tommy the Narcs? PVB (00:26:26): They came. SM (00:26:26): Yeah, they came looking for drugs. PVB (00:26:35): Well, that is part of the anti-drug hysteria in this country. I would hope that in [inaudible], some of that will dissipate. Yeah, you hardly have any of that. Certainly, you have drugs on every campus, but the biggest drug abuse on most campuses that I can certainly say that with a lot of confidence at UCLA is alcohol abuse. SM (00:27:06): Two more here. What did they learn from affirmative action and from curriculum reform? Those are the two... PVB (00:27:13): Well, I have been a proponent for 40 years for both. In California, of course, in affirmative action, we have the Notorious Proposition 209, and so we have been fighting... One of my departments is African-American Studies, and I am a member of the Ralph Gate Bunche Center for African-American Studies. We have been in the forefront about trying to do something about the profound underrepresentation of African-American students. We have made modest progress, but I am a strong and vigorous supporter of affirmative action. We need another generation of affirmative action. We have a long way to go. In terms of curricular reform, we are not even close to what we need. We have had some modest curricular improvements since the (19)60s. The wave of student activism in the (19)60s generated important reforms. We would not have had ethnic studies. I was involved in the first wave of protests that created black studies, now African-American studies, which gave rise to Chicano studies, Asian-American studies, Native American studies, and then women's studies. But alpha (19)60s activism, we would not have any of that, so that is been important. Another area that came out of (19)60s activism was a greater commitment toward interdisciplinary studies. We have made significant progress, but we still have a long way to go. In a university, the disciplinary nomination of the curriculum still remains the fundamental reality, and I still think we need to make major progress. I am not an objective observer, I have been a player in this realm for my entire academic career. I am contemptuous of the traditional academic disciplinary structure, I am fond of telling my students that I have plenty of discipline, but no discipline. SM (00:29:28): One of the things when you are talking about the curriculum is liberal arts. Seems that liberal arts really was strong in the (19)60s, particularly mid-60s and beyond, because it really was the epitome of what Mario Savio was saying at the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65, that the universities need to be about ideas. PVB (00:29:51): And we need- SM (00:29:52): Ideas and not about corporate control or preparing people for jobs like the IBM mentality. PVB (00:30:03): Mario was absolutely right. He was a wonderfully, thoughtful and eloquent person, and his view on the university I think was extraordinarily perceptive, and I absolutely agree with them. I think we need a much greater commitment to the liberal arts tradition. The idea of transforming the university into a practical job preparation institution is a profound mistake because the jobs that we are preparing them of young men and women for today will be obsolete in a generation. The most practical thing that we can do is to give them the most rigorous liberal arts education combined with the traditional skills of critical thinking, writing, public speaking, and the like. SM (00:30:57): Do you think that is certainly a positive that came out of the boomer generation and the professors and students of that era? SM (00:31:03): ...boomer generation and the professors and students of that era. I fear that liberal arts is really being threatened today. PVB (00:31:10): It is, and partly it is a lot of the boomer parents who have, I am sorry to say, very minimal vision about the fundamental value of a liberal arts tradition. They keep pushing their students, not their students, their sons and daughters into practical things. Learn about computers, learn about engineering, learn about accounting. And I can understand the parental need to do that, but it is short-sighted and mistaken. SM (00:31:47): Yeah. How often have you heard, in your time at UCLA, and I have heard it wherever I have worked is, "What are you going to do with a philosophy degree?" PVB (00:31:57): I hear it thousands of times. SM (00:31:59): Yeah. There is still people that just do not get it, the importance of... My golly, if you read Bertrand Russell, oh my god, there is things in there that you will remember the rest of your life. PVB (00:32:10): Absolutely. And it is something that is, in fact, perfectly practical, that if you unite what you are going to do day in and day out with a deeper philosophical vision, one, you will do your work better, and two, your life will be infinitely more meaningful. SM (00:32:31): Just a little commentary here on comparing the students of the (19)60s and (19)70s to the students of the (19)80s, (19)90s, and even the (20)10s today. I know it is very difficult, you cannot talk about... the boomer generation is 74 million and only a percentage went to college, so you cannot just be talking about college students here, but we are talking about young people overall. But you have been in the classroom and you have seen the students of all these eras. There is smart kids in every generation, so it is not about smarts. But I guess the areas that I am most interested in is activism, overall knowledge of what is going on in the world, students that challenge their professors more, that like to interact with professors in the classroom, and being up-to-date with the news. PVB (00:33:22): They are not, they are not. I have immense popularity with my students. I have done extraordinarily well. I have won every conceivable teaching award you can win, but I am very blunt when I tell my students that, in the aggregate I have a lot of really good students, who are extraordinarily critical and extremely knowledgeable, but in the aggregate, my students are not particularly knowledgeable. And even more insidiously, not particularly intellectually curious. They do not know what is going on in the world. They can tell you all about Lindsay Lohan and Lady Gaga and they cannot tell you what the hell is happening two days ago in Uganda, and that is not good for democracy. SM (00:34:07): I agree, I agree. A typical college scene in the (19)60s, and again, it does not always have to be technology changes, but at Binghamton University, I can remember people buying the newspaper, The New York Times, The Binghamton Press. They were- PVB (00:34:23): Nobody reads the newspaper. SM (00:34:24): ...reading the newspapers. They subscribe to Time and Newsweek. They were reading them. And I know now we have the computer and they can get access on the computer. The question is, are they going to CNN? Are they going to the news or are they going to see Lindsay Lohan? PVB (00:34:35): Their protestation's that they read the news on the internet. I believe they think they are reading the news on the internet, and I believe what is actually happening is that they are glancing at the headlines on the internet. That technology... and look, I use the computer every single day, I could not live without it, but it is not a substitute for in-depth reading. You cannot follow the news by itself on the internet, unless you are ready to devote a huge amount of time, and that is not what they are doing on the internet. They are doing Facebook, they are doing email, they are doing whatever it is that they are doing, but they are not reading the news in a thoroughly systematic way. There are exceptions, but not many. SM (00:35:31): You were- PVB (00:35:32): [inaudible] out of 100 of my students, if that, reads the newspaper in a sustained way. SM (00:35:39): I am going to go back here to the Free Speech Movement again, you were there for the Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65. Would it ever have- PVB (00:35:47): Beginning to the end. SM (00:35:48): Would it ever have happened if they gave in and allowed the group to hand out the political literature? PVB (00:35:55): No. SM (00:35:55): Would the Free Speech Movement ever really have happened? PVB (00:35:57): No. They would have aborted it. And the University of California at Berkeley administration was colossally inept. Did you ever see the documentary Berkeley in the (19)60s? SM (00:36:12): Yes-yes. Yes, I have it. I own it. PVB (00:36:17): Yeah. I am no great fan of Professor John Searle, but he said in there the administration blew it again. They were colossally inept. Every time they could have aborted what happened, they did not. They just committed another atrocity. And so, they made it absolutely easy for us to do what we did. And I was involved in every single demonstration of the FSM. SM (00:36:50): Hmm. Clark Kerr is interesting, because when I went to graduate school, we had to read his book Uses of the University. PVB (00:36:56): I bought it. SM (00:36:57): Yeah. Oh, you did? PVB (00:36:58): I did. SM (00:36:59): Yeah, well I loved the book and when I interviewed Bettina Aptheker when she was on sabbatical in New York this winter, she just really did not like Clark Kerr, but then later on she somehow met him and she said she liked him. But Clark Kerr's interesting, because he is the man that talked about the knowledge factory and that higher ed was heading to the knowledge factory and more people had access to education than ever before. And my question is this, Clark Kerr said in the book The Uses of the University that higher education had become a knowledge factory where students were learning skills to prepare for the world of work. Students at that time had an issue with a factory mentality, like they did with IBM mentality, where they were asked to conform if they wanted a job. Your thoughts on issues like this, just that boomers forced and challenged the universities that were heading toward the research universities of today. I know there is a lot here, but he seems to be a very important figure in higher education and even though- PVB (00:38:11): It has been years since I talked to Bettina, I am much more critical about Clark Kerr. I find him the architect of an institutional setting that I find repressive and extraordinarily unfortunate. I do not want the knowledge factory. I want a university that really generates truly liberal education, that allows people the kind of critical thought that will allow them to find their own way, and not one that will have them adapt to the demands advanced capitalist society. I really think that Clark Kerr is the architect of everything that is wrong with higher education. SM (00:38:50): What is interesting about Clark Kerr is he got fired by Ronald Reagan during the time- PVB (00:38:54): I know it. SM (00:38:58): ...that ...Because Ronald Reagan wanted to fight the students. PVB (00:38:58): No, I know. And I remember when he got fired, I was still a student at Berkeley then, before I started teaching, and I remember... I will never forget Mario Savio's kind of cryptic comment when he was interviewed on television when he was asked to comment about the recent firing of Clark Kerr, he said kind of off-the-cuff, "Good riddance to bad rubbish." Now, that is harsh, but I understand it, and at the emotional level, I agree with it. SM (00:39:33): Obviously, you knew Mario and Bettina and- PVB (00:39:38): Not well. SM (00:39:39): Not well. And I know David Lance Goines, who I have interviewed, too, was part of that. And he never came back to the university he was so upset. PVB (00:39:46): No, I know it, and I have read his book. I have read his book on the FSM. Again, I have met him but do not know him well. I knew some of the other people much better. The kind of official... it is a shame, I do not know if you ever interviewed Michael Rossman. SM (00:40:05): No. PVB (00:40:05): He died. But Michael was kind of the official archivist. He died about two years ago of leukemia. SM (00:40:12): Right. PVB (00:40:13): He was the one I knew the best. SM (00:40:18): The one that was in the car was Weinberg? PVB (00:40:20): Jack Weinberg. SM (00:40:21): Yeah. I would love to interview him, but you were there on that plaza that day, were not you? PVB (00:40:27): I was. SM (00:40:30): Can you describe what that day was like? I mean- PVB (00:40:33): It was wonderful. It was exhilarating. We had, I believe, a collective sense of our student power. We had a sense that we were challenging authority and that, indeed, we could win. When we stopped that police car from taking Jack Weinberg to jail, we had a sense of our extraordinary power. Now, I would add something. A very large number of the people who were there, myself included, had been veterans of the Civil Rights Movement. We knew that we could do that. We had had plenty of experiences. Jack Weinberg was a good example. We had been in the South. We knew the enormity of the impact of collective power. And we were not at all intimidated by the university. I mean, my god, we had challenged a racist southern church. We were not afraid of university deans. But it was an extraordinary day. I was there the whole time, and it was 30 some hours that Jack Weinberg was in there. I was there virtually the entire time. I think the only time I was not there was when I went into the student union to use the restroom. SM (00:41:56): Yeah, because the wide angle pictures that you see of that scene are thousands of students. I mean, and then you had this car in the middle that is not even being hurt. It is not even being scratched. PVB (00:42:12): People took their shoes off. Let me tell you, the only reason- SM (00:42:12): Let me turn my tape here. Hold on. All right. We are ready. PVB (00:42:22): I am an effective speaker. I have been a public speaker for 40 years, the sole reason I did not mount the police car to speak, was that I was on probation for an earlier civil rights arrest and I was operating in violation of my own probation order. If I had been photographed on top of that police car, and if that had gotten back to my probation officer, and the judge would sentence me to three years on probation, there is no doubt that he would have rescinded my probation and issued a warrant for my arrest, thrown me into jail. SM (00:43:03): I know, but when I interviewed Bettina, she said that was the time that she had never spoken before a large group like that before, but she said it gave her a lot of confidence. And she was not up there very long, but it just gave her a lot of confidence, and look she has gone on to become a great professor, so- PVB (00:43:21): No, it is true. I finally did speak the day of the mass arrests on the steps of Sproul Hall when were mobilizing for the strike. I got up and I took the microphone and I said, "We need to deploy students in front of this building and that building." And, to my astonishment, I spoke charismatically and people, they basically obeyed my suggestion, and I realized, at that moment, that I had the power to move people through my oratorical ability. SM (00:43:56): Wow, that is powerful. I know that Dr. Cohen at NYU has written a book on Mario Savio. I bought it when I was there, the day I interviewed Bettina, and I want to interview him, too. He is very busy. PVB (00:44:10): He is worth interviewing. I have read the book. It is very good. SM (00:44:13): Well, he never responded and finally he said, "Steve, I apologize. I have been inundated," three months after I sent my note. He said, "In the fall, when school starts, you can come in September and interview me," so I am going to do that. Final question on this, again, I may have asked this before, but what are the lessons, again, of the Free Speech Movement in your view? And what are some of the visible results of this action that you see on campuses today? In other words, what I want to know, I know how important it was, our students may not know the history of the free speech movement and how important it is for their rights on campus, but do you see the visible results at UCLA today and in other schools? PVB (00:44:52): A little bit. As a kind of indirect consequence of the Free Speech Movement, we were, as I indicated a few moments ago, able to make some curricular changes. If it had not been for the Free Speech Movement, we would not have an African-American studies and I would not be teaching African-American studies. But when I gave my own speech against the tuition hike, back in November at a mass rally on the UCLA campus, I said that when Mario Savio spoke on December 2nd, 1964 he said that there comes a time when the machine becomes so odious that you cannot take part. And I said, with today's prices at the university, it has become so odious, you cannot take part. And so, what I am hoping is that, especially with the repeated budget cuts and the organization of the university, that enough students will begin seeing that this is no education at all. So I am hopeful that there will be an increased student movement. I have no idea what is going to happen, but I would hope that with all of these kinds of cutbacks in education you will have a response from the student body at UCLA, the University of California and a number of places across the country. SM (00:46:17): There are some people, and I cannot name them, but I have read that they think that it is actually a conspiracy to keep students busy today by the fact that they all have to work, tuitions are rising, they have to work, they have no time to be involved in anything else on a regular basis. They join- PVB (00:46:45): It is a major problem. SM (00:46:45): ...fraternities and sororities, so I do not get it. PVB (00:46:45): Yeah, it is a major problem. On the other hand, when my students moan and groan about that, I simply ask them and I say, "How much time do you waste on the computer? How much time do you waste on social networking sites?" I spent 30, 40, 50 hours a week as an undergraduate in the Civil Rights Movement. I also worked 15 to 20 hours a week, and in the last two years of my college career, I got mostly As. A lot of their complaints... I feel sorry for working class kids that really do have to do it, but for upper-middle class kids, who are getting parental subsidies, a lot of that is merely whining. SM (00:47:28): And there is data to prove that those students who are more involved in activities outside the classroom do better in school. They really do. PVB (00:47:40): The more I was involved in the Civil Rights Movement, the more hours I put in, the higher my grades got. SM (00:47:44): You are a living example of that. One of the things I was reading about, and you probably are very proud about it, in fact Paul mentioned in a little note to me, is that you are a rabble-rousing teacher. PVB (00:48:00): I put on a very lively show. SM (00:48:00): And what was it like being a teacher? Now, this is very important, and I have an example. What was it like being a teacher at Berkeley in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s and even going onto UCLA? And did you fear the university would purge you and other teachers for political activities beyond the classroom? PVB (00:48:19): Yes, I did, and they tried and I beat them back. SM (00:48:20): Hmm. PVB (00:48:25): I was first fired in... or attempted to be fired four years into my Berkeley career in 1972. It was a massive student movement. It became a matter of major Berkeley controversy, it became a matter of national controversy. I think it was 1972, the journalist Nicholas von Hoffman wrote a column about me. I beat him back, I beat him. And several other times when they... They have always used other pretexts, budget, change of direction. SM (00:49:05): Oh, yeah. PVB (00:49:06): Mind you, it has always been political and I have always beat them back. SM (00:49:12): Yeah, it is amazing the people that shut up are the ones that rise oftentimes. When I was at SUNY Binghamton in 1960... I think it was (19)68, a brand-new PhD came in from Berkeley, it was a sociology professor named Dr. Mahovsky, and I remember Mr. Lipschitz, one of the students in our class challenging him. There was going to be a protest against recruiters on campus, and he came into the classroom, the student, and he said, "Are you going to come with us?" And Dr. Mahovsky said, "No, I am teaching a class." And he said, "Well, jeez, did not you just graduate from Berkeley? You should be coming over. You are a professor. You should be coming over with us and sitting in the administration building. And we are going to get arrested, but..." And I will never forget this, he said, " I am no longer at Berkeley, I am no longer just a graduate student, I now am a professor, I have a wife, I have a child, I have to provide for them, I am not going to get involved in this." So I will never forget that. PVB (00:50:17): I have managed to get involved for 40 years and I am still around and in next March I will have been married for 40 years. In L.A. you get to be in the Guinness Book of Records for that. SM (00:50:27): Wow, that probably is. What do you think of Reagan's war on students, that law and order mentality? PVB (00:50:35): That is how he got to be governor. He ran against me and my fellow students and Berkeley in 1966. That is what catapulted him to Sacramento, and then that is what catapulted him, unfortunately, into The White House. Now, people who say if it were not for the Free Speech Movement he would not have gotten there, I am not apologizing for anything. We had to do the FSM. The fact that Reagan was able to be a demagogue and to do that is a sad reality, but I did not make it happen, so I have no regrets about being involved as an activist. If he had not done it, somebody else would have. SM (00:51:18): I think Ronald Reagan heard about Ed Meese at that time, because he was the assistant DA of- PVB (00:51:23): I remember Ed Meese. I used to watch him when I was a young faculty member. He was Ronald Reagan's kind of field general. It was Ed Meese who was directing the kind of ground operations on the Berkeley campus. It was Ed Meese who directed... he was involved in the activity of the People's Park. SM (00:51:47): Yes, in (19)69. Yes. PVB (00:51:49): And it was Meese who directed the helicopters that made the first bombing of an American campus. SM (00:51:56): I interviewed him. PVB (00:51:56): Of teargas. SM (00:51:57): I interviewed Mr. Meese. I had a chance to talk to him, it was mainly I wanted to talk to him about the years before he worked for President Reagan in The White House. PVB (00:52:10): He was the prosecutor of the Free Speech Movement defendants. SM (00:52:14): Mm-hmm. Were you aware of any universities firing professors or purging so-called radical students from their campuses or any campuses in the late (19)60s and (19)70s? PVB (00:52:23): They were doing it, they are still doing it. SM (00:52:23): Because I know that, my first job was at Ohio University and they supposedly purged a lot of the students from the east off of that campus. PVB (00:52:37): I mean, they do not do it with quite the drama, but you have these events. I mean, you have these academic freedom cases every year. At Colorado, they got rid of Ward Churchill. I am no great fan, I must say, of Ward Churchill. I have signed all the petitions, because I think it was a pretty egregious violation of his academic freedom. I am not a great fan of the scholarship, but that notwithstanding, clearly, he was a victim of political persecution. At Bard College, President Botstein has fired Joel Kovel. SM (00:53:16): Oh, yeah. I remember hearing about that. PVB (00:53:21): And I think that is troublesome. I do not know all the details of that case, so I mean this kind of thing goes on and on and, as I said, when I have been the victim of that, I fought back. I mean, I have been fortunate that the nature of my teaching is such that I am always able to generate a huge amount of support from my student population, including, I might add, conservative students. I make clear my own leftist point of view, but my conservative students can speak any time they want and I will listen to them. I will not agree with them, but they are always open to say whatever they want in my classes. SM (00:54:04): Well, access to higher education is a major development in higher education during the (19)60s and (19)70s. And so, the boomer generation, like the GI Bill and the World War II generation really increased the numbers on college campuses never before. With access, including all ethnic groups, what new issues arose in your view, what were they in your eyes? PVB (00:54:32): Well, [inaudible] students, I mean, they were obviously... I mean, I think this is a good thing, but I would like to make higher education more accessible to larger numbers of people. One of the good things until there was a backlash for things like Proposition 209 is that we had increasing numbers of people of color, and they were obviously interested in learning more about their own tradition. Increasing numbers, especially in a place like California, for example, you had an increasing number of students of Latino cultures, and so that was good, it was a valuable thing for the curriculum. On the other hand, you still had a lot of students much more narrowly focused on job markets and more technical skills that would equip them for entry level jobs, and I think that that was short-sighted, as I talked about a couple minutes ago. SM (00:55:32): Being a lawyer, how important was the Bakke decision? I know that was at UC Davis and that was in the late (19)70s. That seemed to be an historic case. PVB (00:55:44): Well, it is interesting. I mean, in retrospect, I mean, nobody really liked the Bakke decision when it came down, but in retrospect, we would kind of like to have it now, because at least it will allow the use of race. It allowed Allan Bakke to go to medical school, I think at Davis. SM (00:56:02): Mm-hmm, yes. PVB (00:56:04): But now, I mean, it is hard to get to anybody. It has been a long time since I read the Bakke decision, but as I remember, the court said you have to let Allan Bakke in, but you can still use race as a legitimate consideration in making admission determination. So if we could go back to the Bakke decision, we would ironically be better off. SM (00:56:29): A lot of people did not realize it, and it was not really brought up, but he was a Vietnam veteran, too. PVB (00:56:35): I know it. SM (00:56:36): And the other thing, too, is what we also saw that is interesting in college campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, is the many Vietnam veterans coming on campuses and the discrimination that they were facing. In fact, they were actually put into affirmative action plans back at that time. PVB (00:56:53): Yeah, I remember that. At Berkeley, we had a few. I did not have a lot of Vietnam vets at Berkeley. And even now at UCLA I get a couple of veterans. It is not a huge percentage. In California, I would think that a much larger number of the military veterans probably go to the California State University system. SM (00:57:20): Right. Would you say, and this is just my perception that another big issue from the (19)60s and (19)70s, as a result of student protests and certainly with what happened at Kent State is the issue of who can and cannot come on campus with respect to police. That was a big issue when I was at Ohio State University as a grad student. And we had legal aspects in higher education classes and these were some of the biggest discussions we ever had, is who can and cannot come on campus. PVB (00:57:55): It remains an issue. Kind of piggybacking on what I talked about earlier, they are very-very careful about bringing large scale police presences on campus these days, because it inflames students. They try to defuse incidents, but we have had them. I mean, even last November when we had the demonstration against the tuition increases, they brought in a huge contingent of California Highway Patrol. And then, it inflamed student population, so they... There is no doubt at a public university campus, I mean, they have the right to come to campus. The issue is not whether they have the legal right, but the propriety and the wisdom of bringing them on. SM (00:58:53): I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly and I know David Horowitz has also said this in his books, that the troublemakers of the (19)60s and the (19)70s now run today's universities. And then, they comment they run the women's studies departments, Black studies, gay and lesbian studies, Native American studies, Chicano studies, environmental studies. Your response? PVB (00:59:17): I think that is moronic. There is a need for all of these studies. These are whole areas that were historically neglected. David Horowitz is his own... In both cases, you really have to look at the sources. Phyllis Schlafly is an old-time reactionary, and extraordinarily difficult to take her seriously. David Horowitz is another interesting guy. I do not want to psychoanalyze him, but the temptation to do so is almost irresistible, coming as he does as a red diaper baby, who is trying to, basically, exorcise the ghost of his left-wing past. But on the merits, he is wrong. On the substantive merits, he is absolutely wrong. When you look at things like African-American studies and Chicano studies and you look over the past 35 or 40 years, there is an impressive body of scholarship and teaching that stands extraordinarily well on its merits. Now, it is absolutely the case that in the ethnic studies and women's studies curriculum, they are going to point out the existence of racism and sexism, because they exist. And that people who spend their time in scholarly investigation looking at race are going to discover racism, and those people who spend their scholarly lives dealing with gender, are going to discover sexism as an institutional component of American life. Mr. Horowitz does not want to acknowledge that, but that is his intellectual deficiency. SM (01:01:17): See, I interviewed Michelle Easton from the Clare Boothe Luce Institute, a conservative female, and she kind of agrees with that, as well. And she says, in some of these courses, women's studies, that they are never going to teach about Phyllis Schlafly, they are never going to teach about Clare Boothe Luce, they are never going to talk about conservative women. I made a comment earlier, they are doing exactly the same things that they complained about when they were students back in the (19)60s or (19)70s or whatever, so- PVB (01:01:52): I do not think they are. I think it is perfectly appropriate to teach about Clare Booth Luce, she was an important journalist, she was a congresswoman. I think you want to talk- She was a congresswoman. I think you want to talk about people who made a significant contribution, that would by definition eliminate Phyllis Schlafly, she is not an important figure. SM (01:02:14): Some people will say she is, because she single-handedly defeated the ERA. PVB (01:02:19): Yeah, I know. But, in the scheme of American and [inaudible] important figure. These are intellectual judgements we have. SM (01:02:28): Right. The problems we have just, I got a lot of questions here and you are doing great, because you are one of the first, along with Dr. Chickering and one other person, really talking about higher ed, which is important, because it is such an important part of the lives of Boomers and in that period. The problems that we have in America today, go back to the (19)60s and (19)70s. I say this, because in 1994, if you remember when Newt Gingrich came into power, he made some commentaries about that period of the (19)60s and (19)70s as to the reasons why America's in the shape it is in and he was referring to negative shape. PVB (01:03:10): Of course. SM (01:03:10): George Will, oftentimes lights to in his commentaries, take jabs back to that period. Even today, and I do not even watch Fox News, but I hear that former Governor Huckabee is constantly making comments, as is Glenn Beck and Hannity about general commentaries about that particular era in history and how it is negatively affected our society and still does today. PVB (01:03:37): There is absolutely no doubt that the (19)60s was a cultural and political and emotional divide. George Will is a thoughtful, intelligent guy. I disagree with virtually everything he says, although I like his writings on baseball. Very political. Glenn Beck is a comedian and is not worth talking about, because he is not a serious intellectual. Gingrich is an interesting, problematic person in his own right. He is not stupid. Beck is just an entertainer and he is real. We do make intellectual judgements, but let me talk about the deeper issue. The (19)60s was a profound divide. It changed our consciousness of America. There were a lot of people who wanted America to be what it was before then a Baskin for white middle class people with a deeply institutionalized sexism and racism. That was the America that they liked. That was the America that gave them the privileges that they enjoyed. And that was the America that we took on. That was the America that they enjoyed with Dwight Eisenhower. But the Eisenhower administration favored the wealthy. It was contemptuous of racial discord and it was contemptuous of the rights of women. And the (19)60s challenged all of that and I believe properly so. SM (01:05:12): Excellent response. When you look at the boomer generation, it is anywhere between 74 and 78 million people. In fact, I just read an article that boomers can no longer say they are the largest generation in American history. There are now more millennials than there ever were boomers. PVB (01:05:32): Yes. That is not surprising. SM (01:05:35): And because boomers, the most would be 78 million, we are already over 80 million for the millennials. But what I am getting at here is when you look at this boomer generation and you think of the boomers that you knew in many different capacities, and when I say boomers, I do not like to, some people have had some difficulty with the timeframes here, because I know from all the people I have interviewed that those that were born between 1940 and 1946, a lot of them feel they are boomers in the way they think and the way they act. You are dividing me from somebody else who is only two years younger than me. Come on. So I know what I am asking really is what do you think were some of the good qualities and bad qualities about the generation? Some people will not even answer this question, because I think it is too general. PVB (01:06:31): I mean, a lot of the people, I mean, I am right before the technical beginning of the boomers and a lot of the people came right after really were fundamentally part of (19)60s activist generation and for all of the flaws, and there were many, and for all of the kind of shrillness and the irrationality, it still made a major moral difference. It was people like that who were the foot soldiers in the most making the major moral transformation of our society, which was the civil rights movement. It was people of that generation, people of my age, people born right before (19)46 and right after, who were the foot soldiers who took to the street and who supplied the bodies in the most important moral crusade of the 20th century, the American Civil Rights Movement. So for that minority of that generation, without being chronologically precise, that minority of that age group performed a service for which America ought to be grateful for centuries to come. My view. SM (01:07:47): Could you list some of the contributions in your eyes at the boomer generations, its members? In society as a whole, both good and bad? PVB (01:07:55): Yeah, it is that minority that had a vision of morality and social justice that carried forth. It is that vision that has allowed people of color to live in this country with assemblance of humanity and dignity and which among other things, shortly after the highlight of that, that helped to end a grotesque war in Southeast Asia. The wrong side of the boomers, and again, without being chronologically rigid, is that many of those people fell all too easily into Reaganism, which may seems to be the worst example with the Reagan administration. It institutionalized selfishness, [inaudible], if I can point a word, where it said that, what is in it for me and to hell with everybody else. So the other side of that generation seemed to me to institutionalize a vision that all we care about is our own advancement, usually financial advancement and the hell with the welfare of the rest of the American population, really the hell with the rest of the human population. So it had the best and the worst. SM (01:09:27): That is kind of the Christopher- PVB (01:09:27): The latter is more than the former. SM (01:09:32): That is kind of that Christopher Lash talks about in the culture of narcissism. Yeah. I see there is a Bruin Alumni Association that is not an affiliate one that has a web page- PVB (01:09:43): No, it has nothing to do with the Alumni Association. SM (01:09:45): It talks about dangerous professors on campus. PVB (01:09:45): Yes. SM (01:09:51): And you are on that list. PVB (01:09:52): I am only on number 21. When that came out, I went to my students and I said that I regret profoundly that I did so poorly in the rankings. I had several months to see if I could elevate. SM (01:10:06): That is kind of the what a lot of people said when they were on Nixon's enemies list. PVB (01:10:10): Yes. SM (01:10:13): Some people said, "Wow, geez, I am hurt, because I am not on it." PVB (01:10:16): Right. The day that came out, I was teaching a very large class. I got a standing ovation. SM (01:10:24): Do you compare this at all, even in a small way, to the witch hunts by [inaudible] in the late (19)40s and (19)50s and looking at communists, McCarthyism in the (19)50s, attacks on the new left liberals, the Hollywood 10. Do you see even in the small way, a continuation- PVB (01:10:50): Yes, but in a very small way. Strictly minor league SD. SM (01:10:56): Right. PVB (01:10:57): Major league stuff. Strictly Bush League. SM (01:11:01): The new right really came to power in kind of the mid to late (19)70s in reaction to the new left and liberal groups active in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, the rise of Reagan was part of that, because the concepts of law and order, he did not want a welfare state. The kind of mentality where you lift yourself up by your own bootstraps and do not concentrate on the government. PVB (01:11:27): ...yourself up by your bootstraps and also predisposes that you have boots. SM (01:11:31): Right. Good point. What are your thoughts on that rise of the right? PVB (01:11:38): I see that as a consequence of the cult. I see that as a consequence of Reaganism. For all of Ronald Reagan's crack pot economics, the more pernicious dimension of the Reagan era was the cultural consequence of selfishness, of narcissism, of this kind of contemptuous disregard of the marginalized population. It was Ronald Reagan, for example, who opened up the mental institution in California. It was Ronald Reagan who basically maligned for my view of any society is that the, well, the moral quality of any society is the way in which you treat the most disadvantaged. And the way America treats its most disadvantaged, it remains appalling to me. SM (01:12:31): Well, I know religious leaders became a very important part of this, whether it be Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell or Dobson. But when you see a Ralph Reed who has a PhD in history, who is so smart, I mean there were a lot of boomers who were part of this. PVB (01:12:53): I am sure. And they could always find people who can use the gospel. I mean, look, I am not religious. I mean, I come from a secular Jewish background, so I have no particular vision about the Christians whom I admire are people like Dr. King. SM (01:13:16): Right. PVB (01:13:17): For whom theology works for the betterment of the human condition and for people like Robertson and Buck [inaudible] and Reed, frankly, it strikes me that they are using theology as a cover for retrograde [inaudible] SM (01:13:37): Two religious leaders that seen, even though Billy Graham seems to be across a lot of currents and so does Father Sheen, the Catholic Church, they seem to be a little different, would not you say? PVB (01:13:51): Well, you mean Fulton Sheen? SM (01:13:53): Fulton Sheen, yes. PVB (01:13:54): Yeah. That goes back to the (19)50s. SM (01:13:57): Right. That is still part of boomers. When they were young, they saw these and- PVB (01:14:00): No, I used to watch them on television. I do not remember very much. He used to give these [inaudible] on television as a kid. I do not remember them specifically. Billy Graham has been around forever. I am no great fan of Billy Graham. I do not find him as reactionary as some of the other ones. But on the other hand, his palling around with all president will strike me is a bit of hollow. SM (01:14:29): Except Jimmy Carter for some reason. PVB (01:14:31): Yeah, no, I mean, but they share the born again vision. So there is not... SM (01:14:39): From your own life experiences and your knowledge of history through reading, describe what the following time periods mean to you. Since all these periods were at times when boomers have been alive and helped shape them and their multiple views on life. I have asked this to the last 50 some people that I have interviewed, and it has been very interesting what they say. This is just, when you look at this timeframe, what does this timeframe mean to you as a person, and what do you think it means to the generation that was growing up at the time and the period, 1946 to 1960? PVB (01:15:18): I found the, well that is basically 1946 to 1960, is the (19)50s, and I found that repressive. I have very vivid recollection. I remember the witch hunts. I was talking to my students yesterday. I teach at the summer course and I am using George Clooney's goodnight and good luck about Edward [inaudible], whom nobody had ever heard of until I mentioned. And I remember the Army McCarthy hearings, I remember the malevolent gaze of Joe McCarthy and his detestable sidekick, Roy Cohen. I remember the less than pleasant days of the Eisenhower administration. So I have very negative feelings about the (19)50s. I actually wrote an article many, many years ago about the (19)50s called Not So Happy Days, the Politics and Culture of the (19)50s. So I have very negative views, because it seemed to me that it was not happy if you were African American or poor or a woman, a variety of other people on the periphery of society. SM (01:16:28): What did you think of the TV of the (19)50s? Because when I think of the (19)50s, I think of Howdy Doody. I think of the Musketeers, Mickey Mouse Club. I think of Walt Disney, Ed Sullivan Show, a lot of comedy sitcoms, half hour shows, a lot of- PVB (01:16:48): I remember Westerns. I grew up in a very politically conscious and very politically critical family. So I was imbued with that. The only thing that I liked on television in the (19)50s was sports, baseball, football. SM (01:17:04): How about the period 1961 to 1970? PVB (01:17:08): I love the (19)50s and I am critical of its excesses, and I am critical of those people who said that they were involved in the (19)60s when they were young, and now they have matured and become mature. I think that is nonsensical. I am an unapologetic defender of (19)60s activism is pretty heard so far. Now, I think the (19)60s were one of the moral highlights of a relatively recent American history, especially the civil rights struggle, and especially the proceed to end what I think to be a monstrous war in Vietnam. SM (01:17:50): The period 1971 to 1980. PVB (01:17:53): Well, there was still a lot of activism in the early part of the (19)70s, and I supported that. I knew many of the people as the civil rights movement, for example, transformed from the kind of nonviolent civil rights movement to Black power. I understand that. And I was actually very supportive of the Black Power Movement. I retained a lot of associates and friendships with people who were involved in Black power, and I think that was very important. And in the early part of the decade, the anti-war movement accelerated. The war of Vietnam did not end until Gerald Ford withdrew American forces in 1975. So the first part of that was still part of the (19)60s. The latter part coincided with a much more passive era. Even though Jimmy Carter was president, it was moving toward the kind of passivity and narcissism of the Reagan era. My vision of the latter part of the Sotheby's becomes much more critical. SM (01:18:59): Yeah. Let me go right into that, 1981 to 1990. PVB (01:19:03): Not a particularly pleasant time. I mean, that was the era of Reagan, and that was the time where Reagan used his sometimes a very persuasive to communication power to malign and disparage. Before that was when he was utterly indifferent, for example, to people with aids. Not a pleasant time in our national history. And I am confident that few historians who validate my vision. SM (01:19:37): How about 1991 to 2000? PVB (01:19:39): And I think it continued. I am not, I mean on some levels things got a little better with Bill Clinton, but I am no Clinton fan. SM (01:19:52): Is there anything that stands out in that (19)90s that... PVB (01:19:55): No. I think on some levels, domestically things got a little better, but Clinton really continued the same irrational Cold War policies that actually were initiated under Eisenhower. I did not like his foreign policy adventures. I did not actually, this has to be apart from a lot of my colleagues on the left. I did not like his personal immorality. SM (01:20:22): And the one thing, he seemed to be very close to African-Americans, though. PVB (01:20:30): That is the popular view. I dissent when people said that he was the first Black president. His actual policies seems to me worked against the interest of the African-American population. I think he was particularly good with his rhetoric, but there is an enormous gap between his rhetoric and the day-to-day policies. SM (01:20:53): Where is this gap? PVB (01:20:55): No, I am not a Bill Clinton fan. I do not like what he stands for. I think that basically the Clinton influence in American life is a negative one. And I am in the minority on the left on this. SM (01:21:10): Where was that gap you mentioned? You can give an example of the gap? PVB (01:21:13): Yeah. He cut welfare payments, which I would not do, but I am unambiguously in favor of Democratic socialism still. SM (01:21:25): How about if- PVB (01:21:25): I was in Washington DC, I had about a 10-minute conversation with Ralph Nader, whom I like enormously. He would be worth interviewing, if you can get to him. SM (01:21:39): He is a tough man. He is never around. PVB (01:21:39): I know. SM (01:21:41): The last one of course is 2001 to 2010. PVB (01:21:45): Well, we will see. We will see. I mean, the Bush arm was grotesque. I mean, the worst president, arguably one of the worst presidents in our national history. SM (01:22:02): Let me change my tape here. Hold on. Very good. PVB (01:22:09): An absolutely horrible president, a horrible administration. A disaster will take generations to recover from his grotesque adventures in Iraq and Afghanistan. SM (01:22:23): What about Barack Obama? Just your first- PVB (01:22:25): See, I am increasingly disappointed with Obama. SM (01:22:32): So the judgment is out on him. It is too early, so to speak. PVB (01:22:37): It is still too early, but I am not happy with the trajectory. I would like him to be much more vigorous. A lot of people in the left, feel that way. I am hardly unusual. SM (01:22:47): Would you say that if you talk about this 10 years between 2001, 2010, it is all about 911? It is terrorism? That is the- PVB (01:22:55): Yeah, I mean, there is no doubt. I mean, 911 was horrible. No humane human being can say anything other than that. It was horrible. I mean, Al-Qaeda and their operatives are mass murderers. Nobody could defend that, indefensible. And if somebody were to capture and kill Bin Laden, I would be perfectly ecstatic. But look at what has happened. There was this kind of hysteria about terrorism that can have catastrophic consequences for civil liberties. I mean, in the wake of 911, we passed this grotesque Patriot Act. Horrifying, in my view, as a civil libertarian. SM (01:23:41): Did you experience the generation gap in your family between your parents and yourself or any of your brothers and sisters? Was there any- PVB (01:23:52): Not really. SM (01:23:52): Did you witness the generation gap amongst any of your peers and their family? PVB (01:23:56): Not especially. I am the oldest of five. There is a 19-year difference between me and my youngest sister. We are all politically progressive, although I have always been the most active, and maybe that is the first child syndrome. I have always been the most verbal. SM (01:24:15): Did you see that there was the generation gap between the World War II generation and the boomers? PVB (01:24:21): Yeah, I respect the World War II generation, but I do not romanticize them. I think [inaudible] broke laws rhetoric about the greatest generation is overblown. SM (01:24:35): Some people have also said that we concentrate too much on the generation gap and the battles between parents and children. But we do not talk about the generation gap within the generation, which is between those who went to Vietnam or served in the military during this timeframe and those who evaded the draft. PVB (01:24:57): Yeah, there was that. And I regard myself as a Vietnam vet. I fought the war. I would not have served in Vietnam. I think it was a grotesque score. I got a high draft number. So I was lucky I would not have fought that war. It was monstrous. Whenever I go to the Vietnam wall in Washington, and I certainly empathize with the people who lost relatives, and it is very touching and very moving to see that. But it is a horrible war. I would not demonize people who went and I would not spit on them or call them baby killer. But we should not have fought that war. We should not have fought in Iraq and should pull out of Afghanistan. SM (01:25:43): James Fallows- PVB (01:25:44): Very much, I mean, my views, they are minority views. Not North Vietnam, but certainly with Afghanistan. But large numbers of Americans feel the same way that I do. SM (01:25:57): Yeah. James Fallows has written years back, the writer for Atlantic Monthly, that he was in Harvard at the time, that he feels real guilty and has been honest about evading the draft and not protesting the draft, because a lot of those students evaded the draft, but put no effort into protesting against the war. And so there is some lot of issues there. So do you see any different- PVB (01:26:24): I have no such issues. I would not have fought in that warrant. I protested it. SM (01:26:28): Were your thoughts on those who went to Canada? PVB (01:26:31): I understand it. I would not have done that. I am an American. I belong here. I was born here. I have lived here. I am critical of my country. Therefore, I want to work assiduously to try to change it. SM (01:26:48): Yeah. I think Dr. King used to always say that if you need to not worry about being arrested when you protest, because that is part of the game, and those people, that is the nonviolent protest. PVB (01:27:02): Right. SM (01:27:02): And he always stressed that. And so those who did alternative service and did not go to Canada and some went to jail, like David Harris. PVB (01:27:12): Exactly. SM (01:27:13): And served time. Those people seemed to be admired more. Those who did alternative service and went to jail and then those who evaded the draft or went to Canada. PVB (01:27:24): Or who, I mean, I am in a different category. I fought the war in Vietnam from the time of the Gulf of [inaudible] in summer of 1954 until the final withdrawal in 1975. I was always outspoken against the war, 11 years. SM (01:27:46): Well then you are part of that then. In your opinion, what is the major event or happening that shaped the entire generation of 74 million? Is there one event that you think shaped it more than any other? PVB (01:28:00): There is too many. I do not think historically you can name one. I mean, obviously young people today in college, they all remember 911. But look, I remember, everybody remembers where they were when Kennedy was assassinated. But that could be overblown. It is too simplistic. It is really a complex of events that give rise of the ones individual events can help you locate a conscious, but it is individual psychology and human history are more complex. SM (01:28:40): We are is a follow-up. Maybe you will have the same answer. When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes and when did it end? PVB (01:28:47): The (19)60s began, I do a course in this and I date it on December 1st 1955 when Rosa Parks got arrested, or you could date it on May 17th 1954 when the Supreme Court handed down Brown v Board of Education. And it ended largely when President Ford withdrew the troops in Vietnam. So somewhere in the mid-(19)50s to the mid-(19)70s. SM (01:29:18): Wow. April 30th 1975. PVB (01:29:20): Yep. So around then. SM (01:29:22): Do you think this- PVB (01:29:25): Basically 20 years. SM (01:29:26): This may be a repeat of the earlier question, but was there a watershed moment or you just cannot say? PVB (01:29:31): I cannot really say. There were too many events and I was involved in too many of them. SM (01:29:38): Do you think a quality that this generation has is a quality that they do not trust? PVB (01:29:46): Hard to know. I mean, one of the things that I am sad to say it that I see among my own students is a reluctance to take risks. And I am bothered by that. Even at the interpersonal level. I see too many young people, some of who are kind of reluctant to do anything that would be risky. They are afraid of the consequences. And I sometimes looked and said, my god's going to be afraid to do it at 21. What the hell are you going to be like at 40? SM (01:30:22): Right. Do you feel that the issue of trust is an issue within the boomer generation that has a lack of trust in leaders? Because so many lied to the boomers as they were growing up, and they were given lies in terms of why we got involved in Vietnam. We had the Watergate- PVB (01:30:42): They say that. I hear that a lot. I wonder however, whether there is so much of that is just a rhetorical cover. I am not sure how deep that really goes. I mean, every generation gets lied to. Political leaders always lied, endemic of the operations. SM (01:31:10): Would in response... I do a follow-up to this question. That is, when you think of a lack of trust, you really think of liberty and the definition of liberty. That was a political science major and well and history major. And one of the first thing things you learn in political science is that trust and lack of trust is a very positive quality in a democracy, because that means you do not trust your government, keeps them on their toes. And the dissent is alive and well in a democracy. Do you agree with that? PVB (01:31:38): No, that is good. I mean, one ought to be skeptical. But one ought to be skeptical when people say they are doing it for your own good. And you should say, show me that it is for my own good. Explain that further. Now I have, as a teacher, my job is to try to tell my students or urge them to be a lot more skeptical of authority wherever they encounter it. At home, at school, at both at the micro and macro level politically. Democracy requires skepticism. SM (01:32:19): Where were you when you heard President Kennedy was assassinated? Do you remember the exact moment? PVB (01:32:25): Yeah, I was an undergraduate. I was just kind of walking and somebody said, they said like many other people, I did not believe it, until actually until everybody started buzzing about it. SM (01:32:39): Were you at the Berkeley campus? PVB (01:32:40): No, I was in San Diego. I went as an undergraduate at San Diego State. SM (01:32:46): So you heard of it just walking across campus? PVB (01:32:48): I was on campus. It was between classes. SM (01:32:51): And did you go to- PVB (01:32:55): I remember sitting down with a friend, we were kind of joking about something, having nothing to do with that. And some professor- PVB (01:33:03): ...about something having nothing to do with that. And some professor came and started ... gave us a really dirty look. And I could not figure out why the hell was he this off with us, but I had not heard anything. We were outside. We had no, people were not wired up. And [inaudible] 63. SM (01:33:18): Did you? PVB (01:33:23): I think he was pissed off that we were joking, but we did not know anything. I would not joke about something like that. SM (01:33:29): Did your class continue or was it canceled? PVB (01:33:33): I think it was canceled. SM (01:33:35): And were you like many that just watched TV all weekend or? PVB (01:33:40): Yeah, I watched it. I watched it all the way through. I watched it incessantly. I watched Oswald being assassinated by Jack Ruby. SM (01:33:46): Yep. And you probably remember the announcers. PVB (01:33:51): Yep. SM (01:33:52): Tom Petit. PVB (01:33:54): Yep. SM (01:33:54): And Ike Pappas. PVB (01:33:56): Yep. SM (01:33:58): They have both passed on now. But those are the ones, NBC and CBS. PVB (01:34:03): It was incredible. SM (01:34:04): Yeah. Another important question here. Do you mind if we go over a couple minutes here? Because we are going over? Sure. Because I got, I have got the civil rights questions here. But this is a question I have asked everyone, all 170 people, a question that our students came up with when we took a trip to Washington DC in the mid (19)90s to see Senator Edmund Muskie. We had a leadership on the road program through Gaylord Nelson from Wisconsin, and we set up about nine meetings with senators, and this was our last one. And he was not very well. He had just gotten out of the hospital. And the question the students came up with, because they knew that he was the vice president of candidate in 1968 when all that terrible thing happened there and all those tragedies, assassinations that year. So they wanted to know, number one, were we close to a, they wanted to ask him, were we close to a second civil war in 1968 due to all the divisions? And secondly, do you feel that because of all the divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war and against the war, those who supported the troops or against the troops, and they brought in all the burnings of the cities in the (19)60s, and Watts and the burnings after Dr. King died and the assassinations. Do you think that this generation, because of all these terrible things, is going to go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? And so they wanted a response from him, I will tell you his response after I hear yours. PVB (01:35:44): No, we were never close to a civil war. The Civil War was really a major division about states’ rights and slavery. We were in a period of great turmoil and tension, but nothing qualitatively similar civil war. But many of the tensions remain unresolved. I mean, I still think that many of the tensions that existed forty-something years ago remain. We still have racism, we still have sexism. I am extremely close to the African-American community, and I know definitively that they still see racism very pervasively in American society, notwithstanding that Barack Obama is black. And a lot of these tensions are going to remain unresolved. And a lot of people, especially the generation before me, are going to die with a lot of unresolved issues. And I am not sure that they will be resolved in my own lifetime. But it is not a civil war, and it never was, was not even close. SM (01:36:54): Do you think that there is a problem with healing within any segment of the boomer generation or as a whole? PVB (01:37:08): Yeah, but it is not... I mean, time heals. Time itself works. I mean, it has an effect though, on the rougher edges, but I am not sure. I do not want a cheap healing and I do not want closure, and I do not want healing unless there is resolution and resolution in certain directions. I do not want healing without... I do not want to heal unless the underlying issues are resolved. I do not want to heal if there is still racism or there is still sexism or homophobia. I do not want to play kumbaya if we still have these problems. I would rather have tension and discord. SM (01:37:57): That is an excellent response because Senator Muskie did not even respond about 1968. He mentioned nothing in his reply. It was simple and direct. He said, "We have not healed since the Civil War because we have not healed over the issue of race." And then he went on to describe the North and the South and all the divisions, and that is all he said. And he did not even mention... and he had just seen the Civil War series on TV in the hospital, the Ken Burns series, and he said, "Ask yourself this, young people. Almost 430, 000 people, men, died in that war. Almost an entire generation was wiped out in the south." So ask yourself, the issue of race. He said that... he actually had tears in his eyes when he was talking to us. He had said nothing about the (19)60s. So that is how he responded. What has the wall done, in your opinion? Have you been there? You already said you have. What was the first response to the black granite wall about a mile in? What came to mind when you first saw it [inaudible] PVB (01:39:03): Oh, I have seen it a dozen times. It is tremendously moving. What makes it such a remarkable piece of public art is that it allows people of both sides, the protagonists who fought in Vietnam and people who fought against the entire war like me, to stand in the same space and to share their... well, not to share, but to experience their own private emotion. I mean, the people who lost people, you can see them rub the names. But people like me stand there and I see the 58,000 and odd names of people, and I think what a tragic, tragic waste. SM (01:39:46): See, I think maybe I should have rephrased the question. I have said this to other people when I talked about healing, is really... has the healing truly happened between those who went to war in Vietnam and those who were the anti-war movement? PVB (01:40:00): Probably not. But I think the edges are off as we have gotten older. But I really think that the issue, I agree with Senator Muskie, the issue of race is a deeper divide. When Dr. Dubois in 1903 wrote that race is the defining issue of the 20th century, it remains so. SM (01:40:24): I know Jan Scruggs, the founder of the Wall, wrote that book To Heal a Nation, which you probably read because he wanted to heal the veterans. And I know it has done a great job for the veterans and their families, which was... PVB (01:40:36): It is very important for them. SM (01:40:37): But they still have a lot of healing to do. You just see when you go to the wall. PVB (01:40:39): There is no doubt. SM (01:40:41): But he wanted to heal the nation. So I do not know if that that is going to be possible by... PVB (01:40:46): It is not going to be possible. I think the edge is off, but it is not going to heal. Life does not work that way. And I do not know that healing is in the way in which that is expresses ability [inaudible] desirable. SM (01:41:03): You are a scholar and you have obviously not only written great books, but you have read great books. What are the books that most influenced you as a scholar, as a thinker? People that have written books that you may have read in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, or even through today that are truly inspirational? PVB (01:41:29): I have read so much, and I mean, I think about that, but I have... at this juncture of my life, I have read so much. I mean, there are books that are profoundly influential. I just got done teaching Camus' The Plague, which is to me tremendously influential, it is a novel of resistance. And if there is any word that I would summarize what I have tried to do with my, not just my adult life, but with my life in general, it is resistance. It is to resist what is wrong, to resist illegitimate authority. And Camus' novel is a novel of resistance, and I have taken that to heart. I read that as a young undergraduate and I have taught it for 35 years. And I keep changing my reading list, I have been doing that for 42 years. That is the really the only major exception. It has been a constant. SM (01:42:32): Well, that is good. Because you- PVB (01:42:33): I never tire of it. SM (01:42:35): Hey, you are changing it around. You are not doing the same thing every year. That is good. PVB (01:42:38): No, I change it all the time, but not that, I weave that in somewhere kind of once a year and I never tire of it. And the students never tire of it. SM (01:42:47): Two books that I really liked when I was in grad school, and again, I had interviewed Daniel Bell, so he is 92 years old, I was lucky to get an hour with him. But Bell, I mentioned these two books, The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. PVB (01:43:03): I used to kind of informally debate Roszak. SM (01:43:07): Yeah well that was, well, I tried to get him to be interviewed, but he was not well, he is not well now, so. PVB (01:43:13): He has got to be in his seventies. SM (01:43:15): Yeah, he is retired and I do not know if he is fighting cancer. I do not know what it is, but I just know he is not well, and he said he did not have the energy to talk for a half hour on the phone. And the other one was Charles Reich's The Greening of America. I do not know if you know it. PVB (01:43:31): Oh, that was all part of the whole counter culture. SM (01:43:33): Right. PVB (01:43:34): Yeah, I remember all that. That was big at a particular moment. SM (01:43:39): And Erickson wrote some great books too. And Kenneth Keniston and yeah. PVB (01:43:44): Exactly. What is Charlie Reich doing these days, is he still around? SM (01:43:48): My understanding is he is like disappeared. He left, I guess he left Yale a long time ago. Lives in the Bay Area. I guess he is, hibernating. I do not know. He is just like doing nothing. I guess he is retired and I do not know what he is doing. PVB (01:44:03): Yeah, he would be in his seventies as well. SM (01:44:05): Yeah. Now this is the area that I think you will have the greatest enjoyment in responding, because actually what is interesting, you do not know anything about me, but African American history and issues dealing with African Americans is the center core of my life as well. You are a senior lecturer of African-American studies at UCLA, and you understand the history and the culture of the civil rights and civil liberties. Could you comment on these African-American leaders that were important during the lives of Boomers? And I got a list here, you may have others, but these can just be brief comments on people. My advisor was Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, who was my graduate school advisor at Ohio State. And you can go on the web, see Dr. Roosevelt Johnson, he has a big practice in just outside Washington DC. But he was a great inspiration and he brought us into prisons and got us involved in issues dealing with African Americans. It is just like, and I have been reading ever since, and Dr. King is my hero, and in many respects. First person to respond, just a few comments on Malcolm X. PVB (01:45:18): I am an enormous admirer of Malcolm X, especially near the end of his life, that remarkable transformation when he moved from a more narrow based Islamic identity with the nation of Islam into a much more, much broader vision of humankind. I think his assassination in 1965 was a horrible tragedy. I liked his vision of universal human brotherhood and black militancy, which he was able to fuse tremendously. SM (01:45:53): But do you believe that when he has had that slogan by any means necessary, did he mean violence? PVB (01:45:59): If necessary, I have no problem, I am not a pacifist, so I think that appropriately conceived the violent response can be legitimate. Nelson Mandela realized that during the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa, when with some reluctance, he decided that they had no choice except to move to the armed struggle. SM (01:46:20): I know Malcolm had a big debate with Bayard Rustin on that. PVB (01:46:25): I am an admirer of Bayard Rustin, but I am not a pacifist. Bayard Rustin was. He was an official, the fellowship of reconciliation. SM (01:46:34): And he is from Westchester, right where I live. PVB (01:46:37): Yeah. Now he is a very important figure. My students have never heard of him. SM (01:46:42): Dr. King and Mrs. King. I want to include both of them. PVB (01:46:45): Yeah. They were tremendous. I mean, arguably Martin Luther King is one of the great human beings of the millennium. I mean, there is no doubt. I mean, and certainly America's greatest orator, and Coretta another extraordinary human being, no doubt. I mean, unbelievably powerful. I was there when he spoke at the march on Washington and I- SM (01:47:13): Wow, you were there? PVB (01:47:15): So I was there. It was when we were in Washington for the spring quarter. My wife and I walked there and I showed exactly where I sat when he gave the speech. SM (01:47:26): Wow. PVB (01:47:27): I am a tremendous admirer of him. I have [inaudible], his letter from the Birmingham Mail was one of the great militant civil rights document ever. His pilgrimage, that nonviolence is important, and I disagree with it. I prefer Malcolm's view on the necessity of violence, although I prefer to avoid it. SM (01:47:54): How about John Lewis? PVB (01:47:56): One of the great men, I mean, and he is still at it as a congressman in Georgia, wonderfully eloquent. He just gave a speech the other day when he looked in Congress in the house, when he said he was speaking to the Republicans, do not you people have a heart? There are people out there who need their unemployment insurance. Wonderful man. SM (01:48:20): He spoke at Kent State, and I was there recently, and I interviewed him for my book. I brought him to Westchester when we did a tribute to Bayard Rustin as well. Julian Bond? PVB (01:48:31): I have known Julian. I was a SNCC worker when he was the office manager. Wonderful, wonderful man. Unbelievably eloquent as a speaker. I had the good, the privilege when he was our guest at UCLA. I interviewed and I introduced him at a big public speech. I have known Julian for 40-some years. Tremendous. I admire verbal eloquence, and he has it. And his writings are tremendous. He has done tremendous writings on all kinds of issues that go far beyond Rice alone. SM (01:49:11): He is also the voice at Kent State when people do the tour now. PVB (01:49:15): Oh, he is the greatest. SM (01:49:16): At Kent State site. James Farmer? PVB (01:49:19): James Farmer, the former head of CORE. I heard him a dozen times. He faded into historical obscurity. But should not, he was an unbelievably eloquent man. He was in a Louisiana jail. He was the only major civil rights speaker during the march on Washington. SM (01:49:37): Yes. We had him on the campus. A lot of these people I have met myself. A. Philip Randolph? PVB (01:49:46): One of the iconic figures. I have written at length about A. Philip Randolph, the major figure that merged the civil rights and the labor movements. SM (01:49:59): And I think more students need to know about him, because when I mention his name, people say who? PVB (01:50:05): I know. SM (01:50:05): Where have they been? PVB (01:50:09): I have a class, I have a history of social protest movement, and I had 330 and last four. And when I mention Randolph, I think two or three heard of him. That is typical. SM (01:50:23): How about Roy Wilkins? PVB (01:50:25): A very important figure, too moderate from my perspective, too wedded to the more legalistic tradition of the NAACP, but certainly very important. But during the height of the Civil Rights Movement, the NAACP was among the more conservative forces in the Civil rights movement. And Wilkins classically in that tradition, but certainly he devoted his whole life to the movement, and one has to give him huge credit for that. SM (01:50:56): Whitney Young? PVB (01:50:58): Even more so. He was the head of the Urban League, but he and Wilkins were on the conservative wing of the Civil Rights Movement. I mean, Whitney Young was a trained social worker and kind of therefore less given to the kind of confrontation on the street. I worked with SNCC, and SNCC was the youngest group, and I shared that to you. Still do. But I like free confrontation. SM (01:51:30): How about Ralph Bunch? PVB (01:51:33): Bunch is an iconic figure. I mean, I work in the Ralph Bunch Center for African American Studies. An extraordinary diplomat. One of the early PhD scholars, political scientists, and I know all about Ralph Bunch, he is an extraordinarily admirable figure. SM (01:51:54): Rabbi Hesburgh? PVB (01:51:57): You mean Theodore Hesburgh? SM (01:51:58): Theodore, yeah, Theodore Hesburgh. PVB (01:52:00): He was the president of Notre Dame. SM (01:52:02): No-no-no. I mean the Rabbi. I thought it was Hertz. I thought it was Rabbi Hertzel or the Rabbi that- PVB (01:52:14): Hertzel. No, Hertzel is the Zionist leader. SM (01:52:16): I got the wrong name, then. PVB (01:52:18): Rabbi [inaudible]. SM (01:52:21): I thought it was Rabbi Heschel. I thought it was Rabbi. PVB (01:52:24): Oh, Rabbi. Oh yeah. SM (01:52:25): He was with Dr. King on many- PVB (01:52:27): Absolutely very important voice for Jewish voice of social activism and justice. Very, very important. Abraham Heschel. SM (01:52:37): Yes. That is my mistake. I apologize. Fannie Lou Hamer? PVB (01:52:42): One of the great figures, her leadership in the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party, and an orator and a singer, an iconic, iconic woman. I have been teaching her and about her forever. SM (01:53:01): How about Ella Baker? PVB (01:53:03): Another one. She was one of the, it was she who broke, she did not break from the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, but she was one of the kind of originators of SNCC, very important figure. And again, representing the historical contributions of women in the Civil rights Movement. She needs to be much more well-known than she presently is. SM (01:53:28): The people that really were to the side of Dr. King at all times. You had Jesse Jackson. You had Ralph Abernathy. PVB (01:53:38): Absolutely. SM (01:53:39): And you had Andrew Young. Those three seemed to always be with him. PVB (01:53:44): They were always there. I mean, I met Ralph Abernathy. Dr. King sent Ralph Abernathy to our home during the Lebanon crisis. SM (01:53:55): Of course, I got Paul Robeson here, and I think you have already mentioned about- PVB (01:53:59): And I thought mean he really is the iconic figure long before the modern Civil Rights Movement. I only regret that contemporary African-American leaders do not pay homage to Robeson, John Lewis being a conspicuous exception. SM (01:54:17): When you think of the athletes of the period that boomers have been alive, like you think of Muhammad Ali. PVB (01:54:26): Ali is a wonderful guy and very political. SM (01:54:30): You think of Jackie Robinson, who certainly opened up the color line. PVB (01:54:35): No doubt. I mean, Jackie Robinson was a hero to everybody. He was certainly, in terms of his athletic prowess and his real commitment to civil rights, he was no Paul Robeson, of course. SM (01:54:49): Kurt Flood is someone who never is talked about, but I think he is very important. PVB (01:54:54): Absolutely. Broke the reserve clause. SM (01:54:56): Yeah, and you are the first person I even mentioned him. We seem to forget him, and I think people need to know more about him, about his life. PVB (01:55:06): I think. SM (01:55:08): Yeah, and certainly the Tommy Smith and John Carlos. PVB (01:55:14): That was the moral highlight of the modern Olympic movement, that moment in Mexico City. A wonderful moment. It drove a lot of Americans crazy. I thought it was terrific. SM (01:55:27): How about Dr. Harry Edwards, who was part of that? PVB (01:55:34): Well, I, Harry, I knew very well when we taught at Berkeley together. I think Harry played it incredibly. SM (01:55:40): He has also disappeared. You call the college and they do not have any forwarding address to him. PVB (01:55:46): I know, he is around though. SM (01:55:49): Do you know his website or? PVB (01:55:51): No, I do not, but I can get that for you. He was our speaker at the Bunch Center in May. Now, I always go to, we have an annual Thurgood Marshall lecture. The only reason I did not go was that I was teaching in Washington DC in the University of California, Washington Center. SM (01:56:09): Okay. PVB (01:56:10): Or otherwise I would have gotten together with Harry. [inaudible] SM (01:56:12): Good. If you have his email address, I would appreciate it. I brought him to Westchester quite a few years back, and then I have lost touch with him. PVB (01:56:23): When I go in tomorrow, I will try to get it. Email me tomorrow and I will try to forward that to you. SM (01:56:28): Super. How about the Black Panthers? And I say this specifically because you cannot just talk about them because of the unique personalities. I am going to mention the personalities and then your comments. Stokely Carmichael, Eldridge [inaudible] We will go with Stokely. PVB (01:56:45): He was terrific. I never knew him. I saw him occasionally, once or twice in the SNCC office. Very important, taken with himself to be sure, but did a marvelous job. And he was the bridge between the Civil Rights Movement and the Black Power Movement. And it was he who came up with, I think, was not it, he who came up with black power as a slogan? SM (01:57:11): I think so, yes. Yeah, Eldridge Cleaver. PVB (01:57:16): A tragic figure. I remember when he wrote Soul on Ice, and I actually did have a couple of conversations with Cleaver. I knew a number of the Panthers in Oakland when I taught at Berkeley. Cleaver became, I mean, a caricature of himself at the end. SM (01:57:36): I know he became a strong conservative at the end. PVB (01:57:41): He became a conservative. He became a Mormon. He became whatever he became. SM (01:57:45): He was living on the street too, I think. PVB (01:57:47): And he was viewed as an embarrassment in the black community. SM (01:57:53): Kathleen Cleaver. PVB (01:57:55): I talked with Kathleen a couple of years ago. She is teaching law at Emory and occasionally at Yale. She continues to do good work. SM (01:58:04): And of course, H. Rap Brown is in jail the rest of his life. PVB (01:58:07): He is in prison in Georgia. Another kind of tragic figure. I never knew him. SM (01:58:14): Fred Hampton. PVB (01:58:15): Well, I mean, that is one of the great martyrs of the infamous J. Edgar Hoover. SM (01:58:23): And then Huey Newton and Bobby Seal. PVB (01:58:26): Well, they were very important. My parents knew Huey. I never did, they are very important. Also, Bobby is still around. But he, last I heard, he was in Philly. SM (01:58:40): Oh, no. He is not in Philly anymore. He lives in California. PVB (01:58:42): Oh, he is back in California. Huey was a tragic figure, but very important at a particular moment in time. SM (01:58:51): And Angela Davis, who was not a Black Panther. PVB (01:58:54): No, but she, I think she is retired from Santa Cruz, but her writings are terrific. I gave a speech from the spiral steps at Berkeley when Ronald Reagan fired her from UCLA. and I was involved, and I signed a million petitions to free Angela, and I have spoken to her. I do not know her well, she is really [inaudible] born (19)43 or (19)44. SM (01:59:20): George Jackson was symbolic of all the prisoners. PVB (01:59:23): Oh, he was killed in San Quentin. And I mean, I followed that case. SM (01:59:30): How about Robert Moses, who was so important in SNCC? PVB (01:59:34): Tremendously important. Because you are almost saint like in what he did. He is still around teaching mathematics. SM (01:59:39): Yep. Thurgood Marshall? PVB (01:59:43): A judicial giant. Another Thurgood Marshall on the court. SM (01:59:52): One thing I always thought, when I thought of Malcolm, and I think of the Black Panthers, people are very critical of the direction because they challenged Dr. King and Bayard Rustin on nonviolent protest. But Dr. King challenged Thurgood Marshall because even though he liked Thurgood and was very proud of what he did in getting the Brown V Board of Education decision through the Supreme Court, that was a challenge because Dr. King used to say, I want it now. I do not, we are not going to wait any longer, and we are not going to have the gradualist approach of a Thurgood Marshall. So maybe this- PVB (02:00:30): No, but Thurgood Marshall also was not a gradualist. There was a wonderful love that... Marshall was a very, very fine lawyer, and that was the legal wing of the movement. And he was tremendously courageous in developing all the legals that culminated in the Brown decision. SM (02:00:52): James Meredith? PVB (02:00:54): Another interesting figure. I mean, it was very important for him to do all of that at the University of Mississippi. I do not know what finally happened to him. He must be in his (19)70s now. SM (02:01:05): He became a conservative too. PVB (02:01:07): Yeah. Well. SM (02:01:08): Nothing wrong with that, but just surprising. PVB (02:01:11): But he did mean it was important for him to challenge. I mean they precipitated those riots in Oxford. SM (02:01:18): Then of course, Medgar Evers? PVB (02:01:23): Oh, I think I had the same feeling when Evers was shot in the back that I had to the Kennedy assassination. That gives you a sense of my reaction to Medgar Evers. SM (02:01:38): Have you been to Arlington? PVB (02:01:38): Not, I was there for three months. I did not get to Arlington. SM (02:01:45): Medgar Edwards is buried there. PVB (02:01:47): Yeah, I know. Because he was a veteran. SM (02:01:49): Yeah, he is over in an area by himself near a tree as you would walk over to the Iwo Jima statue. PVB (02:01:55): Yeah. An extraordinary human being. SM (02:01:57): Emmett Till, that was a tragedy. PVB (02:01:59): Well, I mean, I remember that as a child. I mean, I talk about that and about the state against [inaudible], and that was an iconic moment. That was one of the catalysts in the Civil Rights Movement. That was one of the points of origin for the (19)60s. SM (02:02:17): And then of course, Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman, which. PVB (02:02:19): Yeah, of course. And I was driving that way a couple of, the three, four weeks around, not on the same road, but the same general area for [inaudible]. And it dawned on me that what happened to them could have happened to me. SM (02:02:35): And just quick responses to these terms. You do not even, Freedom Summer, which was (19)64. There is a book on that. PVB (02:02:42): Yeah, no, I remember it. I was in the Civil Rights Movement, but not specifically a part of Mississippi Freedom Summer. Very-very important in the movement. SM (02:02:50): Of course, the March on Washington (19)63. But a lot of people forget that there was another one in 1957 that Dr. King was at, which was smaller. PVB (02:02:58): No, I know. I mean, tremendously important in the modern civil rights movement. I mean, anybody who was at Washington in August of(19) 63, that will be one of the highlights of their lives. It certainly is for me. SM (02:03:13): Orangeburg? PVB (02:03:15): Orangeburg, South Carolina? SM (02:03:18): That was where the killings were. PVB (02:03:20): Oh, yeah. No, I know about it, but vaguely, I do not know enough that at this juncture to comment on it. SM (02:03:27): Jack Bass wrote an article on it, a book on it. Selma and Montgomery. PVB (02:03:32): Those were tremendously important. I mean, Selma, it was Jim Clark, the [inaudible] racist Sheriff. And these were all very vital parts of the movement. And there were examples of racist violence against the nonviolent protestors of the movement. SM (02:03:55): And of course, Little Rock Nine. PVB (02:03:57): Oh, I mean that, it was the little rock crisis that got [inaudible]. PVB (02:04:02): It was the Little Rock crisis that got Levittown out of the news because it was just a couple, it was just a month after the Levittown crisis. But that was another one of the precipitating events. And there you had the legal defiance of Wabufarbus. SM (02:04:20): Then you had the church bombing that killed the little girls, and I know that that in that inspired Angela Davis. PVB (02:04:26): Horrifying. SM (02:04:29): And then of course, I have here the trip to Mecca, which was Malcolm's important trip. What do you think would have happened if he had lived? Because of course you cannot, just so you can say the same thing about John Kennedy. Maybe we would not have gone into Vietnam, but guess- PVB (02:04:44): We can. No, I think Malcolm would have grown into a leader with the eloquent stature of Kin. SM (02:04:55): Your thoughts on the Black Panthers again, do you think they were a violent group? PVB (02:05:01): Oh, they were undercurrents of violence. I think they were in the aggregate, sincerely committed to Black liberation. You read their ten point platform, their statement of principles perfectly acceptable. I still would like to see them implemented. I have essentially positive thoughts about the Panthers. I do not want emphasize them, but I think in basically positively about the past. SM (02:05:33): There were other groups that went violent. We all know about SDS and the Weathermen. We all know that a lot of people thought the demise of SDS was because of the Weathermen, the violence. PVB (02:05:49): SDS finally spun out like a tornado. The Weathermen were lunatic. They were romantic revolutionaries in a society that was never a revolutionary society. SM (02:05:58): Well, even in the American Indian movement in 1969 when they took over Alcatraz. PVB (02:06:03): Alcatraz, I remember that as well. SM (02:06:05): Then that went to violence at Wounded Knee by 1973. That kind movement kind of was set back for a while. PVB (02:06:14): No, I mean, I am in favor of carefully constructed defense of violence. The violence for the sake of violence strikes me as falsely stupidness strategically put into effect. SM (02:06:25): Yeah. I think the Young Bloods, the Chicano Movement kind of foul the Black Panthers too in some of their events. Describe in your own words the connection of the arts to politics and society. PVB (02:06:37): Well, that is what I write about. I have become one of the, it is fair to say that I have become one of the major scholars on political art. I really believe that art plays an integral role in the overall struggle for social justice. And that is what I have been, and I have a lot of parts of my personality and my life, but I have been documenting political arts for 40 years. SM (02:07:14): Could you give some examples of that? In the (19)60s, the art and the connection to social issues. PVB (02:07:23): There were literally hundreds. I mean, there were Vietnam, there were artists against the war in Vietnam. People, even iconic figures like Ben Shahn and Jack Levin and George Segal, they all did artworks against the war. They used their considerable skill to say no, and this is ongoing, and this is what I do every day. And in recent years, I have been documenting African American artists who have been upfront in the struggle against racism. SM (02:07:57): Can you describe about photography and the importance of that? PVB (02:08:01): The importance of photographers in the United States, for example, have played a key role in highlighting social injustice from the time of Jacob Rees and Lewis Hein all the way through the thirties. But the Farm Security Administration like, Dorothea Lange, Walker Evans, Ben Shaw himself was a photographer. And especially Gordon Barks, the first African American to do that. So they all use their camera to say, look, America, this is what is really going on. And they continue to be the eye of hunt. SM (02:08:41): Would you say the Marian Anderson experience in Washington with Eleanor Roosevelt was a major happening in the area of civil rights in America? PVB (02:08:52): Without doubt, without doubt. I have talked about the 1939 concert for as long as I can remember. And when I was in Washington with a great deal of internal soul-searching, I finally walked into the DAR Museum. It took a lot of internal fortitude for me to finally go into that building. SM (02:09:17): Yeah, that took a lot of courage on the part of Mrs. Roosevelt, too. PVB (02:09:21): Tremendous. SM (02:09:21): She quit the organization. PVB (02:09:23): No, I know all about those events. SM (02:09:27): Well, since you are talking about The Yards, and we mentioned 1950s TV. I was born after World War II, but the thing that amazes me as a young boy, I saw Amos and Andy and was on TV and was on all the time, and it was funny. But now when you reflect upon it, that was about the only African Americans that were on TV in the (19)50s, except for Nat. King Cole who had a show in the mid-(19)50s for a short time. PVB (02:09:57): The Amos and Andy was the classic example of African American characters. I mentioned it to my students regularly. I mean, I have childhood memories of it. SM (02:10:09): And do you remember that period when Nat King Cole was on for a short time and then it was canceled and it was a great show? And then in the early (19)60s, what is amazing is, and I remember this clearly. There were four shows with African Americans, and I remember reading an article in a magazine saying, they are going to take over the television. And this is early (19)60s. Diane Carroll was in a TV show was a nurse, Flip Wilson had his show, and then Bill Cosby was in I Spy, and there was one other African American that was in another TV show, and the commentary was, they were going to take over television. PVB (02:10:50): Sure. Just like they are going to marry your sister. SM (02:10:52): Yeah. Are there any movies that you feel were the best movies for the Boomer generation today? On CNBC, they got what they consider the 50 top movies for the Boomer generation. I thought that was interesting. I was looking at, you can even go to it. PVB (02:11:11): I would have to look at it. There is so many. SM (02:11:13): When you think of the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s and (19)80s, are there any that stand out to you that really, if you saw it, you knew this was the era? PVB (02:11:30): Oh God, I would have to go back. Dealt with so many films. I do film courses. I woud really have to look at it. There is some really powerful works. I mean, I am about to show, I do not remember when it came out but I am about to show the Boomberg kind of anything by Costa Gavras was tremendous. I am about to show Missing. About students about Chile. And then certainly right in that period, because you have the American inspired overthrow of the Allende government in (19)73. There is so many. There is just a remarkable number of powerful films. But of course, most films are just entertainment. SM (02:12:14): Yeah. Well, I tell you, when I saw these films today, I can still see them knowing that that is when I was young. Like the Graduate and- PVB (02:12:22): Oh, I know. Everybody has saw that. SM (02:12:23): Easy Writer and Zabriskie Point. PVB (02:12:27): I remember that too. SM (02:12:28): Bob Carroll, Ted and Alice, which I think was a corny film. PVB (02:12:32): Yeah. Zabriskie Point was with Antonioni, I think. SM (02:12:36): Yeah, I know. Shaft was really a movie that. PVB (02:12:40): That was Gordon Parks. SM (02:12:41): Yeah, that was a very, the Cat, the movie Fritz the Cat, which was a controversial movie in the early (19)70s. PVB (02:12:47): I remember, but it was rated X. SM (02:12:50): And the Marlon Brando, The Last Tango in Paris. That was during the sexual freedom of sexuality kind of thing. And so there are many more. All right, let us see. I am getting down here. I am down to the last little section here, if you do not mind. These are just, you are still there. PVB (02:13:13): Yeah. SM (02:13:14): These are just quick responses. You do not have to go into any length on some of the personalities beyond the African-American personalities. Just quick responses to these names or terms. Tom Hayden. PVB (02:13:25): Oh, I have known Tom, not well. Another very important figure. He has been at it his whole life, both as an agitator and then later as a legislator. SM (02:13:36): Jane Fonda. PVB (02:13:38): Yeah. She did good work. Mean she broke up with Tom, but she was out there. A good example of a celebrity who is also political. SM (02:13:51): Attica. PVB (02:13:53): Well, that was extraordinarily important because it got America to understand what was going on in America's prisons. SM (02:14:01): And then what is really sad here today is a brand-new book out. You have probably seen it about Jim Crow in America Today. All you have to do is look at our prison system. PVB (02:14:10): That is exactly, because that is what it is. SM (02:14:12): Yep. San Quentin. I say that because that is where Angela Davis and George Jackson were. PVB (02:14:19): Yeah, no, I know it. I mean, I have been on demonstration assembly at that- SM (02:14:25): Alcatraz, which is the Indian takeover. PVB (02:14:27): Exactly. Another remnant of America's ridiculous prison history. SM (02:14:33): Robert Kennedy and John Kennedy. PVB (02:14:36): Well, they were martyrs of the (19)60s. I mean, I am not a particular fan of either, but they were martyred. SM (02:14:47): LBJ and Hubert Humphrey. PVB (02:14:49): Tragic figures. I mean, Johnson was very good domestically, but a failed president because of his growth test score in Vietnam. And Humphrey was just a wacky tragic figure. I did not vote in 1978 and I refused to vote for him, and I have no regret, no apology. SM (02:15:08): Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern. PVB (02:15:11): Well, they were both wonderful anti-war figures. I voted for McCarthy in the primary and McGovern in the General Election. SM (02:15:21): Richard Nixon and Spiro Wagner. PVB (02:15:24): Monstrous figures in American political life. Nixon horrible and Agnew, a caricature of himself. And I used the word advisedly. A fascist. SM (02:15:41): Yeah. Well, he made some pretty hob nobs and whatever called else. PVB (02:15:43): Negative makeup, whatever the hell it was. SM (02:15:44): Robert McNamara and Henry Kissinger. PVB (02:15:48): Well, McNamara is a tragic figure. I mean, he later recanted. You see that the documentary about his work has been sad, but he still was one of the architects. Kissinger strikes me as a war criminal. SM (02:16:04): Ronald Reagan and George Bush the first. PVB (02:16:10): Both pernicious influences. Reagan even more so, especially because people liked him because of his genial personality. But I have to add that he is not universally loved. People say, oh, Ronald Reagan. That is not the case when you talk to people in the African-American community. SM (02:16:31): Or people in the gay and lesbian community. PVB (02:16:33): Absolutely. Absolutely. SM (02:16:35): In fact, I have interviewed some people that actually, one cried on the phone. PVB (02:16:40): Absolutely. Especially with his contemptuous indifference to the AIDS crisis. SM (02:16:46): One thing about George Bush the first, is the fact that he is the one that said the Vietnam syndrome is over. I think he will be remembered more for that than no more taxes. What did you think? PVB (02:16:58): He probably will. I mean, he will come out better because of the malevolence and stupidity of his son. SM (02:17:05): Yeah. How about Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter? PVB (02:17:08): Both mediocre presidents. I mean, Ford was well-meaning, so was Carter. Carter's actually wound up being a much better ex-president. SM (02:17:20): How about Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower? Harry Truman was the first president for Boomers. So- PVB (02:17:26): Yeah, it is true. I mean, in retrospect, they are both good. I mean, Eisenhower, in retrospect is a flaming liberal. And his last comment about the Military Industrial Right Flex is still very significant. By today's standards, bright Eisenhower would be a moderate Democrat. SM (02:17:47): What is interesting, if I was a fly on the wall, I would have liked to have been there before John Kennedy and Eisenhower got into that car on an Inauguration Day because it is my understanding that a lot of things that President Kennedy was asking was about Vietnam. And if Eisenhower had just made a mention, I think you need to get out, boy, would life have been different? PVB (02:18:08): Could have changed the course of our history. SM (02:18:10): Yeah. Again, Bill Clinton and George Bush II. PVB (02:18:14): Well, I have already told about. SM (02:18:15): And President Obama too. PVB (02:18:18): And I am not a fan of Clinton for reasons, but I have already- SM (02:18:21): How about the women leaders, which is the ones that stand out? Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug. So they are different personalities, but- PVB (02:18:31): No, they are very different personalities. I am a great fan of Bella. I think her history goes deeper because beyond being a feminist leader, she was one of the courageous lawyers who defended people who were called before the House on American Activities Committee. So Bella goes back a long time. But Betty Friedan and the other one is Steinem. Which one? SM (02:18:56): Gloria Steinem. PVB (02:18:57): Oh, Gloria Steinem. They are very-very important. I mean, they help the catalyze, the women's movement, and we are all better off because of feminism. SM (02:19:05): How about Anita Bryant? PVB (02:19:08): Better to be forgotten. As I have forgotten footnote at a moment in time. SM (02:19:14): George Wallace. PVB (02:19:17): George Wallace was just another demagogue and horrifying race. I saw him standing in the doorway to find a federal order. SM (02:19:28): Dr. Benjamin Spock. PVB (02:19:30): Good man. I do not know about his pediatric work, but as a peace leader, wonderful man. SM (02:19:38): Daniel and Philip Berrigan? PVB (02:19:41): Very good. They represented, in my view, the best of the Catholic tradition. SM (02:19:46): Since we are talking about the Catholic Church, I had not mentioned this before, but Father Hesburgh was a real leader in that area. PVB (02:19:52): Absolutely. SM (02:19:53): Yeah. And he is the real deal. What? They cannot get another president like him at Notre Dame. He is like, oh, Mount Rushmore type person. Dr. Timothy Leary. PVB (02:20:05): Oh, strange guy. I used to have conversations with him in Berkeley. I am not big on drugs. That is where my friend Paul Krasner and I part company a little bit. I am very skeptical of the drug culture. SM (02:20:20): Well, so am I. And people cannot believe I went through SUNY Binghamton, which where everybody smoked pot and everything. PVB (02:20:25): Yeah. SM (02:20:27): I refused. I am never going to say I did not inhale because people were smoking in everywhere, But I never even took drugs. Ever. PVB (02:20:37): I have smoked pot a couple of occasion. I did not like it, particularly. SM (02:20:42): Your thoughts on the beats. Some people think the beats were very important in this anti-establishment mentality. PVB (02:20:48): They were the precursors to a lot of the activism of the (19)60s. As a literary movement, they are very important. People like Ginsberg and Ferlinghetti and others. I had a couple of conversations in Berkeley, with Allen Ginsberg same with Ferlinghetti and San Francisco. Very important. Ferlinghetti is still around. SM (02:21:11): Yeah, I know. He has that bookstore in San Francisco. And he like Ginsburg and Cassidy and Kirouac, Ferlinghetti, Waldman, Snyder, and Leroy Jones. PVB (02:21:21): And he is still around? He is- SM (02:21:23): Yeah, he is Amiri Baraka. Yeah. But- PVB (02:21:26): I like him. I have talked to him. I have been on the same program with him. He [inaudible]. He can be a pain in the ass, but he is made very important contribution. SM (02:21:37): Well, he is not available for interviews. I know that. Just your thoughts on the whole concept of the Cold War. PVB (02:21:43): That was so [inaudible] That molded our whole childhood. I mean, I was a child of duck and cover, except I refused to duck and cover, and I was sent to the principal. SM (02:21:56): How about the Korean War? What role did that play in, if any? PVB (02:22:00): It was there. I was too young to remember it actively. I remember when it ended. I only have fleeting memories of it. I remember it, but not as vividly as perhaps I should have. SM (02:22:16): How about the young Americans for Freedom, which was the conservative group that- PVB (02:22:20): No-no-no. I always knew the offers. I thought they were ridiculous. SM (02:22:24): They started at William Buckley's home, and he is my next person. William Buckley and Barry Goldwater. PVB (02:22:30): Goldwater. Buckley is obviously intelligent and a decent representative of the conservative tradition. So I mean, worthy of intellectual debate, unlike an Ann Coulter. Goldwater, in retrospect also would find himself in the left wing of the Republican Party. SM (02:22:54): I find it ironic that he is the man along with Hugh Scott that went to tell Nixon to resign. PVB (02:23:02): I know it. SM (02:23:04): What an irony that is. And then the whole concept of communes. PVB (02:23:12): Well, I remember that. I mean, that was part of the counterculture. I mean, I certainly have no objection to people doing that. It is not compatible with my personality. I must go individualistic. I could never live in a commune. SM (02:23:26): How about the Woodward and Bernstein changing? PVB (02:23:29): They did good journalistic work, no doubt. I mean, they helped expose Watergate. SM (02:23:35): And Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers. PVB (02:23:38): Very important at a moment that galvanized American knowledge of the underlying realities of Vietnam. So Goldberg, I am glad he did what he did, and I am glad that the Supreme Court allowed that to be published. SM (02:23:54): Tet- PVB (02:23:56): Who? SM (02:23:57): Tet And Vietnam. PVB (02:24:01): That was the comic guide that occurred in 1968. Turning point. SM (02:24:06): Yeah. That was the Gulf of Tonkin guide that ended the war and totally. PVB (02:24:10): And that was the turning point. And we ought to have realized that. And we ought to have gotten out, but we did not. SM (02:24:16): How about Hugh Hefner? PVB (02:24:18): Oh, Hefner. I mean, he hangs around LA in his pajamas and takes Viagra. He probably was important in breaking down some of the sexual repression. But what can I say? And he, he has done good work in the advance of the First Amendment. So that is a good thing. Playboy's a ridiculous magazine. And the Playboy clubs are horribly sexist. SM (02:24:49): Watergate. PVB (02:24:51): Oh, very important. Because it showed the pervasive criminality of Richard Nixon and his cronies. SM (02:25:00): And John Dean. PVB (02:25:02): John Dean has turned out to be quite a good guy. I mean, incredibly perceptive commentator. And he had the courage to come forward before the Irving Committee. SM (02:25:14): LSD. PVB (02:25:17): Overrated. I think it destroyed a lot of lives. If LSD can be used in a very controlled therapeutic way, fine. But I think that Leary and his colleagues unleashed hidden ways that had detrimental effects for thousands of people. SM (02:25:40): All right. The last question I have is, he, is the question of legacy. When the best history books are written, normally that is 50 years after an event, and I am going to paraphrase it. Say a hundred years from now and when the last Boomer has passed on. For people that have any memory of living at this time or have shared from people that are older about this time, what do you think the books are going to say about this generation that was born after World War II and some of the events that took place? PVB (02:26:16): I think that they are going to say that those members of that generation who reflected the activism of the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, made significant contributions to America. If indeed we still have a world that has not been blown up or has not been so environmentally degraded that we still have a planet. SM (02:26:42): The Boomers right now, the oldest is heading towards 64 years of age, and oh, the youngest is heading towards 48. PVB (02:26:50): I know it. SM (02:26:50): And obviously, most people have said those people that were in the first 10 years are a lot different than those in the last. PVB (02:26:57): They are. SM (02:26:57): Second 10 years, but they are really approaching senior citizen status and I know that a lot of Boomers do not like that term, senior citizen. And so in a lot of buildings, they are getting rid of it. And I know AARP is considering not saying senior, because a lot of the Boomers do not like it. Your thoughts, we are talking about Boomers now that have about 20 to 25 more years of life if they have been taking care of themselves. What do you think they will do in old age? PVB (02:27:27): I do not know. I mean it is unique to the individual thing. I mean, I have no idea. There is so much over this genetic roulette. I think about that a lot at sixty-seven. I have no idea how long I am going to live. I run every day and I eat well, but I have no idea because my grandparents were all murdered in Auschwitz. So I do not know. Well, I know what I want to do. I want to keep working. SM (02:27:53): I know when we had Tim Penny on our campus, the former congressman from Minnesota, we had him at Westchester University when he rewrote a book called Common Sense in the (19)90s. I asked him to be interviewed, and he has gotten too big now. He did not want to be interviewed. But when he came to our campus, he said that the Boomers, which was his generation, have made a major mistake they had not saved. He said the average, when he was on the campus tonight, the average Boomer had about between five and $10,000 in savings in the bank. PVB (02:28:33): Yeah, that is going to be a problem. I read or I saw today on the Today Show that a very large number of them are going to outlive the resources. That is a major problem. SM (02:28:41): Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. PVB (02:28:44): My generation, I do not know that I can generalize. And I probably can. I know that a lot of people whom I know are slightly older than the Boomers have been much more fiscally moved. SM (02:29:00): He said the reason why he left Congress was to try to make more money, because he had a lot of kids. He could not make it on 125 or whatever they made their foot, which is a pretty good salary back then. PVB (02:29:12): If I had ever made 125, I would have done just fine. SM (02:29:15): But he said, your comment on this, I will never forget it, and I wanted him to respond to this, but he said, the Boomers are going to be broken down into three areas. There is going to be one third that are going to be very well off, very rich, and they will be able to do anything they want to travel, no matter what happens. Then there is going to be one third that are going to live in poverty, total poverty. They will have nothing. And then there will be one third in the middle, that will be having a very hard time because they will just be getting by. They will be able to survive, but they will be just beginning by, so he said basically two thirds of this, 74 million. PVB (02:30:00): Really marginal. SM (02:30:01): Oh, yeah. And of course, what has happened to a lot of Boomers is the economy has destroyed many of their, no, I mean, it is beyond their control. PVB (02:30:13): No, I know it. And there is nothing they can do about it. It is not their fault. SM (02:30:17): It is almost as if now that Boomers have to continue to work, just like students in college have to continue to work. It is the same kind of thing. And some Boomers may be working until the day they die. PVB (02:30:28): I know it. I am the last generation to get through the fine pension. SM (02:30:35): Is there any question that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? PVB (02:30:40): No-no. I think we have covered a lot, but if you have any more, just give me a call. I am around. SM (02:30:45): Very good. Well, that is it. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Paul Von Blum Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Von Blum, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; African Americans—Study and teaching; University of California, Los Angeles; Von Blum, Paul--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Paul Von Blum is Senior Lecturer in African American Studies and Communication Studies at UCLA. He is the author of six books and numerous articles on art, culture, education, and politics. He received his Bachelor's degree, Master's degree, and Ph.D. in History from New York University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-02-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.164a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.164b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 150:50 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ed2e883f67959182a88b2050bdbc9294.pdf f4b3e67657538e501071e8d3a2c752b9 PDF Text Text • • Ha·r pur Coll,e ge Orchestra w I May 21, 1965 Note iS ----·- -, Vivaldi is remembered today chi,e fly fo,r his i.nstrumental works., ·b,u t he was a prolifi,c ,c ,o mposer in all genres. a brilliant violinist, and the p,rofessor of vio,l in and ma.estro dei co,ncerti. (fro:m 1.716) at the Ospitale della Pi,e ta in V•e nic,e (a ·conservatory fo,r foundling girls),.. It was in the latter capacity that he composed his numero·u s co,n certi gros.s i, concerti ripieni, an,d solo, concerto,s. (,o v,e r 40 0)·, for h,e had to, provide his students c,o ntinuously with fresh. material.. The C•o n.certo in E. Minor, found in manuscript in Turin,, demonstrates a. half-way point b,etween t.he c,o ncerto grosso with its-two o,p posing g .r oup,s and t .h.e opera_,o vertur,e or sinfonia,, for it has, neither solo parts n.o r introduces an opera. Thus it falls in a. category designated by Vivaldi as a. con,c erto ripieno•, in which the fo,u r string sections are ,e ,q ually bal.ance•d and poly·p ho:n ically used. The first an,d last movements, of this parti cular wor·k. a.re very contrapunt.a l, while th.e se,c ,o n.d mo,v e ment is lyric an.d..homophonic. A. proof of the individuality and. pro,v ,o cativ,e character o,J Vivaldi 1·s works lies in the fact th.at ,J . S. Bach later u,s ed many of them as raw material for his ,o·w n compositions . Vi va1di himself o,f ten us·e d his own them.e s mo,re than once and anoth.e :r concerto of .h is •o pens with a theme very similar to the first theme ,o f the first movement in this wo.r k. His themes are often characterize·d by repeated notes while· .hi.s gen,e ral style is ide:n tifiable by its rh.y thmi.c drive a.n d. vitality. 1 w ·ag.n ,e r composed the Siegfried Idyll in 1870 as a b,i rthday p:res.ent to his wife Cosima and it was perf',o r:m ed. as a ,s erenade by a sm.a ll or,c hestr.a on the stairway ,o,f their home. One of the few pi,e c,e s of 11 absolute" music Wagner-- wrote, it is 'b ased on two the.m es he had written ,e arlier in 1864 and had intended for a string quartet . The pie,c e is scored fo,r strings,. flut.e, oboe~ 'b,a soon, trumpet,, 2 clarinets, and 2 ho,rns,, and is delicately an.d intricately orche strated. Although. written i.11 one movem.e nt it has several .s ,e ctions ·p resenting a vart-ety of moo,ds an.d textures. One of the most prolific composers flourisl1ing ,d uring the first half of the eighteenth ce11tury, Georg Philipp Telemann (1681-1767), composed over 170 concertos, besides numerous other works ranging fr,o m. ope ras to fantasias for solo violin. His fame as a com.p ose.r and particularly .a ,s a ,c ontrapuntalist spread throughout E·urope, and twi,c e· he was given precedence over Bach in b,eing off,e r,e d positio,n s. (It was o.n ly after he and a second choice ha.d refused the coveted post of twon music dir,e ctor and cantor of the Thomassch.ule a.t L •e·ipzig th.a t Bach was offered this position . ) Telema.n.n . serv,e ,d a.t Ha.m.b,u.rg fr,o m 1721 until his ,d eath as town music di.rector, composing and directing operas) passionsJ cantatas., an,d. v.a rious ch.a mber ensembles. His w·orks reflect many diverse influences inclu.ding the orn.a te Italia.n opera 1 the French suite 1, tl1e polyphonic ,c oncert,o gro:s so, and the simpler, folk-like d.iv·e rtiment!:>. This c·o ncerto d:e rives its form from the B.a roque S·o nata da. cch i.esa o,r church sonata with four· mo·v ements of .a .lternating tempi , th,e first and third being ,s low, th.e fo,rmer in duple and th,e latter in. triple m ,e ter. It also ,c ontains elements of the concerto gro,ss,o , in wh.ich two groups of different siz•e are contrasted;: here the oboe takes the place of the smaller g·roup (con.c ertino,),, wh.i.ch is pitted against th·e main b,ody of strings (the ripieno),. Haydn co,m pose,ci the Symp,h ony No. 99 in 1793-94 ,d u.r in.g the inte.r im between his two t .r ips to Lon,d o.n . This wa.s the ,s eventh of the so-call ed. "London Symph.o,n ies 0 --Nos . 93-104- •-· written fo,r th.e imp,ressario Salomon, who had .a rrang,e d Haydn's visit to London an.d conducted his con.c ert series there. It is the first symph.o.n y in which H.a ydn used the clarinet altho·u gh 'h e ha,d used it pr,e viou.s ly in oth,e r works. Th·e first movement o,p,e ns with a slow ·introducti.,o n followed by an allegro in so,n .a ta :form... The ,s ec.on,d theme upon whic.h the development se ,c tion is based proves to b,e ,o f great,e r significance tha.n the ftrst theme,. and. th.e recapitulatto:n continu,e s to dev,e lop and expand this subj•e ct m .a tter. Th•e second. movement is cast in a de,e per, .m :o.r e meditative mo,o dt co,n trastin.g sharply with th,e gayj, folklike quality of the minuet . The contrapuntal ,c har.a cter of the last movement,, calling fo·r fugue -like ii.mitati,o n at breathless spe·ed. forms a fittin.g and joyful climax to the work. 1 STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK AT BINGHAMTON Harpur Co,I le ge· ***Th•e Ha.r pur Colleg·e Orchestra*** Fritz. Wa.llenberg, Condu,c tor F ril day,. Ma.y 21 8:15 P . M. Harpur Theater �• The Harpur Coll,e ge ,o rchestra ____P'ROGRAM ________ ___ _____ Violin I F ,e nimore, P 'a ula - Concerlma.s t,e r Is.ham., Patricia Prytula, Christine , , C ,o n ,c e rto in e •- min ,o r for strin.g ,s . . . . . . . . Ant onto Vival ,d i (1678 - 17',41) . ·R obb,ins, N:ancy 1 • Bas,s. Duroche., Leo, Flutes Jack.s on, :M argaret Wallenb,,e rg,, Marianne Walls, Anita Cohn, Debbi.e ,Q boe ' Allegr ,o, moderato Andante Allegro Siegfried Idyll. lil!f, •111 ll!llli i l o i ! 1 1 j j1 ll!l •ji; 1• 1 .. • 1111 1 19111 '• • ' I ., ,• • Richard Wa ,g ner (18,13 ... 188 .3 ) 1 Conc ,e rto for ·O boe and strings in •e -minor ... ,G eorge Philipp Telemann (16, 81 ... 1767) Andante Violin. II Blauser, Henry Duda,, G.r ances Gaylord, Anne Gothe lf, 1S arah Grup:s m.ith, ,Q,e,o rg,e Loewenstein., Fr'itz Pow·a.zek., Irene Viola Colto•n , .R usse 11 C•o lt,o n, Mart'h.a Sajor·, Laurie· - Cello, Battin, William Grub,er, Kathy Livings.tone .,, Christin':! Zimmerm.a n. Susan Allegr ,o m •o lt ,o, Largo Mohn, Abigail S,t olarc.y k, Ri cha.rd Clarinet - A--.; .rt _-' h ur A-._b rah_ams, Duncan,. Candy . - ~--: -- ··1,·· 1 _- --- -1, - B assoon Walk.e r, Stephen Eddy, Scott Fren.c h Hor.n Evansohn, Jo,h n McC,o o,1, Martha Trumpet Mayer, .J ack Backlund, Fr,e d Timp.a ni . lac.o v,a z z.i, F rar1k Alle ,g ro Continuio Ro•b bins,, Do,n ald Ha:r psicho•r d: Courtes,y of Do,n ald Robbins Solo•is.t: .L aila Storch INTERMISS,I ON Sym ·p hony No . 99 ., l ll e -flat m.a.jor. . t ; t , 1 1• • i . •• . Joseph Haydn (173 .2 - 18 09) 1 Adagio; Vivace assai Ad ago Me,nuetto Allegrett ,o Vivace • I � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&amp;tab=LibraryCatalog&amp;search_scope=MyInstitution&amp;vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&amp;mode=basic&amp;offset=0&amp;conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email:&nbsp;<a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE54398">Concert Recital Tape</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. 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For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Concert, 1965-05-21 Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Works by Vivaldi, Wagner, Telemann, and Haydn. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harpur College Orchestra Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Vivaldi, Antonio, 1678-1741 ; Wagner, Richard, 1813-1883 ; Telemann, Georg Philipp, 1681-1767 ; Haydn, Joseph, 1732-1809 ; State University of New York at Binghamton. Department of Music Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1965-05-21 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This digital recording may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Binghamton University Music Department tape recordings, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton Type The nature or genre of the resource sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 39091019618952 ; 39091019619000 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/5837692b27da9cb0fb4d5feb48986684.jpg 2bc7a8ca41d9c7919bb81173026dbc00 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8fee1262dfe3b647d685daf091227a1c.mp3 762ce4ce473ba39d3e926dc6021a60ec Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Arthur W. Chickering, 1927- Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Arthur W. Chickering is an author, scholar, and researcher. His research is in the field of student affairs and he is known for his contribution to student development theories. He previously taught at George Mason University and Goddard College. Chickering earned awards such as the Outstanding Service Award from the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the Distinguished Service Award from the Council for Independent Colleges. He received his B.A. in Modern Comparative Literature from Wesleyan University, M.A. degree in English Education from Harvard University, M.F.A degree in Creative Writing from Goddard College and Ph.D. in School Psychology from Columbia University. \n&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:8403713,&quot;3&quot;:[null,0],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,4995385],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:11,&quot;26&quot;:400}">Dr. Arthur W. Chickering (1927-2020) was an author, scholar, and researcher. His research was in the field of student affairs and he is known for his contribution to student development theories. He previously taught at George Mason University and Goddard College. Chickering earned awards such as the Outstanding Service Award from the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the Distinguished Service Award from the Council for Independent Colleges. He received his B.A. in Modern Comparative Literature from Wesleyan University, M.A. degree in English Education from Harvard University, M.F.A degree in Creative Writing from Goddard College and Ph.D. in School Psychology from Columbia University. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Harvard University; Students; Black Panthers; Higher education; Existentialism; Racism; Baby boom generation; David Horowitz; Assassination of John F. Kennedy ; Robert F. Kennedy; George McGovern&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:515,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Harvard University; Students; Black Panthers; Higher education; Existentialism; Racism; Baby boom generation; David Horowitz; Assassination of John F. Kennedy; Robert F. Kennedy; George McGovern</span> Date of Interview 2010-03-09 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 91:09 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Subject LCSH Authors; Scholars; Chickering, Arthur W., 1927--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Arthur Chickering Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 9 March 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Arthur Chickering, March 9th, 2010. Phone interview for the book on Boomers. In looking at your biography, I kind of broke it down into three parts at the very beginning. You started your college career at Goddard College as a psychology teacher from 1959 to 1965. Could you describe the students of that era? As the (19)50s came to an end, JFK became president, then of course he was assassinated, and LBJ expanded the war in Vietnam, what were the college students like from (19)59 to (19)65? AC (00:00:50): Well, I cannot really describe college students in general, you have to go to other people or other literature for that. Goddard was very small, when I went there in (19)59, there were 180 students. SM (00:01:07): Okay. AC (00:01:08): And it was a very unique institution based on progressive education principals, on Dewey and Kilpatrick, with whom then President Tim Piston had studied. And it had a work program, during January and February, students went away for a work term. They pursued independent studies. They had to apply for admission to the senior division after their first two years. There was a strong emphasis on independent studies. And so, my basic point is that because of its unique characteristics and because of its small size, it did grow over the years to about 1,000 students, but it attracted a very special kind of student, mainly from the Boston, Washington, DC corridor, the Northeast. So those two, and if you look at the way Goddard is described in education identity or in other of my publication, you will see that students are at the extreme left end, if you will, of the sort of political attitudinal continuum. And those were the students I knew best. When I did that project on student development in small colleges, which involved thirteen small colleges across the country from (19)65 to (19)69, then I encountered a wider range of students. But again, all those colleges had enrollment of fewer than 1,000 students, and they themselves were self-selected. We had evangelical and conservative protestant institution like Bryant College and Messiah College and Westmont College at that end of the continuum. And then there was Goddard and Shimer at the other end of that long continuum. And in the middle, there were the Western New England College, Oberlin, which is Quaker based, that is putting it moderate. So those are the students I grew up with if you will. SM (00:04:07): When you worked with that small number of students from (19)59 to (19)65, and then from (19)65 to (19)69 you worked around development in small colleges, and then you were also a visiting scholar at the American Council on Education, (19)65 to (19)70, did you notice any changes in those students in terms of their political attitudes, from (19)59 to (19)70, because of all the things that were happening in the world? AC (00:04:44): Well, again, I do not think I could make any generalizations. The impact on students of those diverse colleges was fairly substantial, and that is what education identity is anchored in. But that population of institutions certainly was not representative of the bulk of students in state colleges and universities across the country, which then were practically free. And of course, the community college movement hit the streets during the (19)60s, and that brought a whole new sector into higher education. And those students did not really bear any resemblance really to the undergraduates I was studying in these very small residential, highly self-selected. I mean they were not selective in the sense that they were meritocratic, but they were sharply defined image self-selectivity operated in a very powerful way. But again, the little colleges had a major impact on students. And I wrote about that. But in terms of knowing about the kinds of general changes that they are asked about across large research universities or publicly support institutions. SM (00:06:46): Well, the last question in this area is those other timeframes from (19)70 to (19)77 when you were the founding Vice President for Academic Affairs, and you were very poor in the founding of Empire College from that, in that period from (19)70 to (19)77, and then you were a distinguished professor at Memphis State University from (19)77 to (19)86. So, you saw not only students who were boomers, but you saw the beginning of the generation Xers coming in there at that time too. Is there anything you saw within the students during that timeframe that was different from the earlier timeframe? AC (00:07:30): Well, of course, during those years, I was heavily involved with adult learning. Two major things happened from (19)70 to (19)87. One of the most important, of course, was the [inaudible] of higher education with the Pell Grant and student loans and open admission. And so, the diversity among students, traditional college age students increased dramatically. And also, of course, there were sharp increases in the numbers of adult learners. And that is what led to the creation of the Council for Adults and Experiential Learning. The Empire State was created to respond to those adult learners. When I was at Memphis State running the Center for Higher Education, I had to see federally funded grants to help institute [inaudible] of institution respond to the educational needs of adult learners. So, during that time period, I was heavily involved with that particular sub sector, if you will, or subpopulation of college and university students, and not with traditional college age undergraduate. I went to George Mason in my role there as university professor. There I was much more directly involved with traditional college age graduates. But in those particular intervening years from (19)70 or (19)71 to (19)87, (19)88, I was heavily involved with adult learning. SM (00:09:44): Wow. What is interesting is when I look at some of these people like you and the other great student development theorists, how did you become who you are? What led you into higher education? I know you went on and got a psychology degree, but your background, who were your role models and your mentors? Who were the people that inspired you when you were young to go the direction that you went? AC (00:10:14): I have just finished an essay called Learning [inaudible] twenty pages long, which details I kind of educational [inaudible], if you will. And I can email you a copy of that if you want. SM (00:10:35): Okay. AC (00:10:37): But the short answer is that I majored in modern comparative literature at Wesleyan University and graduated in 1950. And I was headed for a doctoral degree in comparative literature, but I had to earn a living, so I went to the Harvard Graduate School of Education for their Master of Art Teaching English program. When I was teaching high school students during teaching, I got interested in the way they were processing problems with peers and with authority and with their parents and so forth. As we discussed Mill on the Floss and Silas Marner, which were two novels that were part of the high school curriculum at the time. And that led me... I found I was more interested in working with a student around those issues than in literary criticism. So, I discovered that there was such a thing in school psychology. So, I went to Columbia and got a PhD degree in school psych, and I worked as a school psychologist for three years. And then I was recruited to create a new teacher education department at Monmouth College in Long Branch, New Jersey. I have had a pretty [inaudible] experience at the Harvard Graduate School of Education, and I got fired for-for a variety of reasons, some of which are detailed in this essay that I can email you if you want. But that is what introduced me, that was my first year in higher education. And then I heard about this really interesting little college in Vermont Goddard College and my wife and I, and they had been living in the New York metropolitan area for 10 years or so. We had both grown up in Massachusetts, outside of Boston, and we loved skiing and hiking in Vermont. So, we moved to Goddard. At Goddard I really got introduced to the world of higher education. I was hired to work halftime as Gordon coordinator of evaluation of a fourth foundation supported six-year program in college curriculum organization. And so, I started gathering all that data, a lot of shared and education community. And that is how I migrated over into the world of higher education. Most of what I have built a career on in higher education I learned at Goddess from (19)59 to (19)65 and then with the project of student development in small colleges. The sort of educational principles in terms of learner, student centered learning and contract learning, independent studies, experiential learning, individualized education and the like were really all part of what Goddard was doing back in the early (19)60s when I was evaluating the program. So, I suppose my number one model and mentor was Tim Pitkin, then President of Godard College, but also Forests Davis is academic Vice President, George Becher, another senior faculty member. Those are the people... And I went there in (19)59, so I would have been 32 when I went there. So, I was just very young, naive, professional coming into the world of higher education and they had an enduring impact on my [inaudible] functioning. SM (00:15:11): Very good. How about your parents? How important were your parents when you first went off to college? AC (00:15:20): Well, my folks were divorced when I was nine. My mother was critical. She always wanted me to go to college. The expectation that I would go to college was built into my upbringing. Because I was getting into a lot of trouble in high school and she had to work during the depression and we were poor, she managed to get me a scholarship to Mount Hermann School in northern Massachusetts for my junior and senior year. And I was not a good student. I graduated 103rd in the class of 107. Nobody who knew me then, or none of my teachers certainly would have ever predicted that I would become a distinguished [inaudible] of all things. And when I graduated from Mount Hermann in 44, I was going to be drafted, and instead I enrolled it in Army Specialized Training Reserve program and was sent with 30 other kids from the University of New Hampshire. And I got kicked out of the University of New Hampshire that fall. Went back to live on to my mother, who was then working in Connecticut and went over to Wesleyan University and met with the admissions officer because I knew I would turn 18 in April, that April, after which I knew I would be drafted. So, I managed to... Well, when I met with him, I said, "Here's my situation." I did not tell him I had been kicked out of the University of New Hampshire, but I told him that I wanted to go to college for a semester before I went in the Army. And he said, "Well, send me your transcript and your test scores from Mount Herman and we will see." And at that time, of course, all the eligible men were in the army. But I said, "Well, you do not want to see that Mr. [inaudible]. If you see that you will never let me in here." And he said, "Well, we never let anybody in here without paying that information." I said, "Okay." So, I had it sent to him, he called me up at about 10 days and asked me to come in. And he said, "You're right. We have never let anyone into Wesleyan University with a record like yours." But he said, "I noticed your aptitude scores are very high, even though your grades are terrible, and your achievement test scores are lousy. How do you explain that?" And I said, "Well, I have never studied, I have never been interested in academic stuff. I like sports and parties and cards and so on." And I said, "I am ready to study. I know I need to establish a record before I go in the Army." I said, "I am going to be a commuting student and pay my full semester's tuition upfront. You set any grade point average you want me to meet, according to whatever test schedules you want, and if I do not meet it, you can keep my money and alcohol." So, he said, "Well, let me think about that." So, I left, and in four or five days, he called me up and asked me to come in and he said, "Okay, you got a deal. You give us your tuition; you need to have a B average on your midterm exam or you're out of here." And I said, "Okay." So, I went back and studied and ended up with a B plus average and finished this semester. Went off and spent a couple years in the Army. And of course, while I got back there was highly select institution there. They're only admitting valedictorians and [inaudible], but I went back and got into Wesleyan. And one of the critical things that happened when I went back into Wesleyan, I was back into playing cards and partying and into athletics when I was on probation the first two semesters. And then it came time to decide on a major. And I had enjoyed reading literature, particularly contemporary literature, but at that time, at Wesleyan, you can major in English or Spanish or French, but they all had this historical trajectory starting at the beginning and working their way up. So, I went in and talked with the dean and said, "Isn't there any way I can slice this stuff horizontally? I really enjoy reading contemporary literature and thinking about the relationship between the social context so forth and the literature." And he said, "Well, there is such a thing as comparative literature. We do not have that major here. But if you go talk with Brent Mann was head of French department and Juan Rural who head of Spanish, and Navi Brown, Norman O'Brien, who then was head of the classics department and Fred Miller, head of humanities, and if they all put together a series of courses and if they will write an evaluation for your comprehensive exam," which they did not have then, "You can have that kind of major." So, I walked out of his office at 10:30 and by five o'clock I had talked with all four of those people. And they were very enthusiastic really about doing that. Wesleyan was small. It only had 750 people and because of my gambling and so forth, I was fairly well known on campus. And this is the first sign of any intellectual interest they have seen out of me. SM (00:22:44): What were the students like that you were going to college within the late forties and fifties? What were they like? AC (00:22:51): Well, they were mainly, of course, it was a whole influx of veterans from (19)45, (19)46, (19)47. And so- AC (00:23:03): ... (19)46, (19)47, and so at Wesleyan at that time, it probably was about 50 percent veterans and 50 percent typical graduate from high school. So, the veterans really had a significant influence on the college environment and college cultures during those... In fact, I joined Sigma Nu fraternity, which was started in the South and did not admit Black students. One of the things we did after we tried to change that policy with the national and they would not change. And so, we took Sigma Nu out, we got a loan from the local bank and borrowed enough money to buy the fraternity house and took Sigma Nu out of the national organization, so we were able to admit Black students. SM (00:24:05): Wow. AC (00:24:07): But the influx of veterans during those years, I mean, that was just a bubble. After the war got over and after all of us guys on the GI Bill and so forth went through the system, and everything tried to reverse its fist. SM (00:24:25): Were there many students of color on the campus at that time? AC (00:24:29): Not a lot. There were some and they were terrific. SM (00:24:33): You wrote The Education Identity, which is a classic book on student development of theory, and it's been a major guide for college administrators working with students for a long time. And particularly this came about at the time, in (19)69, when Boomers were in their heyday, because Boomers really started going to college in (19)64, (19)65. So, we are talking about that, particularly the early Boomers, which were the most activist and most involved. Were from (19)64 to about (19)74. How did you come up with the idea, and what was the inspiration to write this great book? AC (00:25:18): Well, I have read everything that was written really about, partly because of my background in school psychology. I read a lot of stuff about adolescent development, and there was not much literature about young adult development. There was not much literature on college’s impact on student learning and development. But I had a file of data from Goddard and from the project, and I had read, as I say, about everything that was to read. My main concern was to have an impact on the quality of undergraduate education. I was not really interested in complex theory development, so I wanted to write something that would be useful, and it would have an impact on practice. I knew from my psychological background that about the largest number of items anybody can remember and work with is five or six or seven. I was determined to try to organize my findings and my orientation toward student development and student learning in a parsimonious way that would fit into that number. As I looked at the literature and so forth, seven vectors as I called them, grew out of that combination of looking at the changes that occurred as the function of the data and the major conceptual framework that [inaudible] and Ted Newcomb and other leaders in that whole arena, for articulate. I was just lucky I happened to right at a level of abstraction that made those ideas pretty broadly accessible and applicable. But I worked hard to try to do that. And underneath each of those seven dimensions, seven vectors, there was possible to create three or four major subheadings and so forth, the kind of Christmas tree on which you could hang a variety of key ornaments. SM (00:28:24): Did you expect it to have the impact that it had, particularly on graduate school education, and why has it been able to withstand the test of time, not only for the Boomer generation, but for Generation X that followed, the Millennials that are in college now, and obviously for Generation Y, which are the really youngsters that will be coming up in 15 years. Your book is now going to be heading toward its fourth generation. AC (00:28:54): It is surprising. Well, I did not expect, in fact, I was very surprised when I got that American Council on Education book award that came out of the blue, because I thought that I was off the scale or off the street in terms of where a higher education was, A, and B, I had no idea that there was such a thing as a student personnel services profession or that there were graduate programs for students. I have been in these little, small colleges. I had never been in any institution that had the kind of array of student services and professionals that larger colleges and universities had. So, when they got picked up by those professionals, I was very surprised. I was frequently embarrassed when folks in Indiana or Michigan or Ohio or other graduate programs could come out and ask me to speak about the implications of my work for their graduate programs, because I did not know anything about those graduate programs. SM (00:30:16): You were big at Ohio State and I know that, did Phil Tripp? AC (00:30:22): No. SM (00:30:23): Yeah, he was Dr. Phil Tripp. He was the head of the program at Ohio State when I was there, along with my advisor, Dr. Roosevelt Johnson. They were unbelievable educators. One of the things that is interesting at that- AC (00:30:38): I am a little surprised. SM (00:30:39): Pardon? AC (00:30:40): I say all of that was a total surprise. And I think when Linda Reisser and I did the (19)95 or (19)96 revision, we were amazed at how all those basic conceptual frameworks still stood up when you looked at research on college impact on student learning and development that had occurred from the mid (19)60s to the early (19)90s that had been preferred that elaborated those. Of course, the gender differences and differences, the function of race and so forth, had emerged dramatically since the (19)60s. SM (00:31:38): I know on our master's exams at Ohio State in the summer of (19)72, the ones we prepared, we had to read 60 books in preparation along with never missing a class. Oh my goodness, you never knew where the questions were coming from, but one of them was on your book. And I remember writing a long essay, in that four-hour exam, writing at least one hour on your book. So it was a very important part of our education. Another thing that was happening during this time in the (19)60s and the early (19)70s was encounter, you probably heard about that. It was- AC (00:32:15): Oh yes. SM (00:32:16): What were your thoughts on encounter? Because I was in encounter classes at Ohio State and a lot of the purpose of encounter was we looked at the seven vectors and the ultimate being integrity at the very end and there was supporting each other. So, there was a combining of the encounter book and then combining of education identity. What was your thought about the whole concept of encounter during that time with college students? AC (00:32:46): Well, I think the whole encounter group movement with the National Training Lab, I have to go get another phone, so I am switching phones here because the battery is running down. Bear with me a sec. Can you hear me? SM (00:33:01): Yes, I can. AC (00:33:01): Still? SM (00:33:01): Yep, I can still hear you. AC (00:33:08): I thought that whole encounter group movement with National Training Lab was extremely helpful. It had a lot of extremists associated with it, but it did call attention to the internal life of people and led people to think about themselves in serious ways. Both my wife and I went to encounter group weekends, and I read a lot of that literature. And by and large, it seemed to me to be a very positive thing. SM (00:33:58): As a graduate student, it was intimidating at time. It was tough to be called, "You sound like a racist," in an encounter class because we had many African American students in our program. And so, it was a great learning experience in the end, but at times it was tough and you needed support. So, a lot of the things you were talking about, about development and theory and everything, a lot of the stuff in the encounter, it was what you were trying to say in your book. AC (00:34:26): Well, it raises that whole movement, raised all those existential issues. I mean, I think another way to think about your earlier question as to why those seven vectors seem to have stood up across generations is that they are really the basic existential areas for human development purposes. I mean, when now we have Goldman's work on emotional intelligence, all the issues of autonomy and interdependence, we have huge literature now on purpose and meaning. Integrity has been an issue in relationships. I mean, those issues do not go away just because there are sort of larger cultural forces that tend to have an impact on particular generation. I think the collision between all the new communication information, social interaction technology and these different vectors is going to be fascinating to observe. SM (00:35:55): I know what- AC (00:35:58): ... and I am not close enough to it or young enough to really get involved with it in detail, but I have grandkids in their 20s and late teens, and they are in professional communication with each other and their high school friends. I went to South Africa with one of my grandsons, to Cape Town, and while we were there every night around 10 o'clock, he would get on, he was a computer guru, had his laptop with him. He would get on his laptop and be interacting with his girlfriend and with his high school friends back here in Vermont. At first, I was put off by that and I thought, well, why cannot you let go of that for a little while? But then as I started about eavesdropping on what he was doing, I realized that he was processing our experiences in the township and with the young people he was meeting with all the race and social and economic dynamics there in Cape Town in South Africa we were encountering. But anyway, the whole interaction and the ways in which current young people and future young people are going to work through those basic human development issues in the context of these new technology and media, I think, are going to be fascinating to try to understand. SM (00:37:54): That is excellent. One of the most important qualities that we try to instill in students is by the time they graduate, that all students have a sense of self-esteem, of comfortableness with who they are as human beings, and obviously, that is one of the goals of integrity in your seventh vector. I will never forget at Ohio State, I really felt comfortable after my years there because I really got what the seventh vector was all about. It is almost like a person standing up in front of an audience, and I said this to students, through my 30 years in higher ed, that these people who come and speak about certain issues really have integrity, whether you like their views or not, because they stand for something, they are willing to be in front of people, to give a... So thus, they have integrity because they are willing to be confronted as well. But the critics of the (19)60s generation, the Boomers, oftentimes attack the Boomers as being one, oh, this self-esteem business is a bunch of baloney. Why do we have to constantly build these people up? It is a criticism that is often been leveled that the era that they do not like, because many critics, political critics in particular, had looked at the (19)60s and the early (19)70s through mid (19)70s as a time when the divorce rate was at an all-time high, the lack of respect for authority, the victim culture started to come about, drugs, sexual revolution, a sense of irresponsibility. "I want it now" type of an attitude without thinking that you have to pay for these things down the road. The question I am asking is what do you think of those people that criticize basically this whole concept of self-esteem and this generation of Boomers that grew up during the (19)60s and (19)70s and putting the blame on them for the issues, the problems, we had today? AC (00:40:06): Well, one reflexive reaction I have is that people who have to support their own self-esteem by knocking others are not in very good shape. I think that that variable has been demonstrated to be critical for career success, for personal mental health. We have the whole positive psychology movement now. The [inaudible] and others have been so instrumental in putting on our screen. We have fortunately migrated away from the mental illness deficit model of thinking about people, and so I think it is highly unfortunate. Now, I think it is important to recognize that narcissism is not very healthy. This is one of the dynamics that occur during that sensitivity training era that you refer to that, if your only focus is on yourself and what is important to you and what makes you feel good and so on, that is pretty unhealthy. But self-esteem linked to purpose and identification, I mean with something larger than yourself, those two things need to go together. An exclusive focus on self can be pretty dysfunctional both for the person and for society, and that is why all the issues of purpose and meaning are important. But you do not have to engage with serious issues of purpose if you feel you are incompetent and inadequate, cannot function with other people, nobody ever pays attention to what you think or what you do, or you are irrelevant to things. You cannot have any impact on anything. So, when those attitudes and feelings are dominant, then there is no way you can invest yourself heavily in something larger than those preoccupations and your own immediate self-interest. SM (00:43:18): That is beautiful. Oh, I can see why you are so great at writing because you are able to put your words and have so much meaning there. You obviously raised... You have grandkids, so you had kids. Did you have a generation gap with your children over issues? AC (00:43:48): I do not think so. We are very lucky. We have a son and four daughters. They are all in their 50s now. They all love each other, they all support each other. They all love us and support us. And as we get into our 80s, they do so in increasing the specific ways. I mean the most difficult dynamic for me particularly, not so much for my wife, was with our oldest child, our son Allen. We have a son and three daughters. So, his movement through adolescence and into young adulthood was complicated in a variety of ways. Partly, I think because he took very seriously the attitudes and values and social concerns that Jo and I actively tried to address and live in terms of. He felt he had to go further and do more. So, he lived a life of intentional poverty for a while, and was draft resistor or not a draft resistor, but tax resistance. SM (00:45:31): Hold that point. I want to just turn my tape. Go right ahead. AC (00:45:41): And he was very interested in teaching, learning, and educational issues. But because of my status in the world of our education, but he was going up and going to college, trying to find his way into higher education. He spent six months at Empire- AC (00:46:03): ... Empire education. He spent six months at Empire State, but it was just created yet. Then he went to University of Wisconsin at Green Bay when it was trying to be [inaudible] U, and finally ended up at the Evergreen State College. His whole relationship with the world of education and higher education was complicated by my status. As often occurs, I guess we had issues around money and stuff like that. So, we had a... I do not know, pick your number, maybe five, eight, 10-year period between his graduation from high school and getting through Evergreen and so forth that were very difficult for him, and challenging for Joe and me to know how to deal with it. Fortunately, we somehow ended of loving each other and supportive of each other. We own a house in Olympia, Washington where he stayed since he graduated from Evergreen, and I have a wonderful relationship. The girls are very supportive of him and us, and they have always had a good relationship with my wife, Joe, and me, and wonderful relationships with each other. SM (00:47:37): Good. AC (00:47:37): So, we are very lucky to have such a wonderful nuclear family, if you will. SM (00:47:47): Because I know that generation gap did tear a lot of families apart. The Boomer generation, my generation, of course, I looked at heroes and I never thought of my parents, although I do now as I have gotten older as my real heroes. But a lot of the heroes of the Boomers were leaders, political leaders, whether it be Dr. King or Bobby Kennedy or someone else, John Kennedy. They looked up to heroes. Whereas I have noticed today, Millennials very rarely if ever say any political leader of any kind, it could be a teacher, it could be a parent, it could be an uncle, it could be a minister. But very rarely any public figures, and I have even noticed in Generation X, the generation that followed Boomers, that there were very few political leaders or national leaders. The Boomers seemed to have them. What made Boomers so different than these others with respect to the people they looked up to? AC (00:48:48): Oh, well, I think the generation that followed the Boomers had a lot of anti-models. Nixon, I mean, whether you look at politics and all the scandals and self-interest and so forth, politics, whether you look at corporate sector and all the greed, and [inaudible] there, whether you look at the international domain and all the of religious and inter- tribal and inter-ethnic conflict, it was very hard to see people functioning in very admirable ways that you would want to identify with. I think that is why you had the whole shift of political and social activism to a much more local level. They were meeting people in their communities and in their states and so forth who they could know and who had a lot of integrity and who were putting their money where their mouth was and walking their talk, and all that, those bumper sticker ideas. So, the context, particularly I think with the Reaganism, is with the whole conservative movement that started with Reagan, had shifted the focus away from social concerns, about the environment, about race, about peace, away from those organizing issues that dominated the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Away from that, the self-interest and capitalism run amongst it. It was a very uninspiring and disillusioning social context to be growing up in. SM (00:51:21): What is interesting is that one of the characteristics of Boomers is that they do not trust because they saw a lot of leaders lie to them, whether it be Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, be it Watergate with Richard Nixon, even there was questions about President Kennedy and whether he had some links to the Diem overthrow in Vietnam, if you were pretty adept at keeping track of things, even President Eisenhower in (19)59 lied about the U-2 incident and of course, McNamara and the numbers. So, a lot of the Boomers just did not trust anybody in position of responsibility, whether it be a President of the United States, a Congressman, a Senator, a minister, a rabbi, a priest, a corporate leader, anyone. And president of a university and administrators. But in the end, they looked at the leaders as their heroes, but then they did not trust them. Do you think that is one of the qualities of the Boomer generation, that they are not a very trusting generation in your experiences with them? AC (00:52:33): Well, I had a lot of experiences with them, but I think as you kick off that litany, they had good reasons to not trust people. I think one of the things that made Obama an appealing was that, and particularly young people felt here was a guy who walked the talk, who could be trusted, and whose background was untarnished, and who we could put some faith in. Unfortunately, the political dynamics now are such that he is thought in politics as usual, and I think maintaining that hope and trust that he ignited is very difficult. SM (00:53:40): When you look at the Boomer generation, again, it is those people born between (19)46 and (19)64, and I know that many of the people born between (19)40, (19)41, and (19)46 are a little sensitive because a lot of them are linked to the Boomers, in many ways. In fact, many of the leaders of the anti-war movement were the age of graduate students. So, they were really in the (19)41, (19)42, (19)43 years. So, there is a link there, but when you look at some of these events, I would like your response to them, because these are the events that the Boomers were involved in when they were young in the (19)60s and through the mid (19)70s. Just your thoughts on the students who were going South for voter registration, the Freedom Summer, and the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in (19)64 and (19)65, and obviously the anti-war movement and the students involved in civil rights and the protests, and then you had the groups like Students for Democratic Society and the Young Americans for Freedom, and the Black Power students. These were all part of those (19)60s, and of course, the students that were involved, that persuaded President Kennedy at the University of Michigan to consider the Peace Corps. Then I am going to list some more later on, but your thoughts on those experiences of students and how important they were, and just your thoughts. AC (00:55:12): Well, I think one of the major points to recognize is that if you look across the population of college and university students during those years, only five to 15 percent of the students, even at the most activist campuses like Berkeley, Michigan, Kent State, so forth, only five to 15 percent of the students were really active and involved. When you look at the research on their background, by and large, their parents were activists during the Depression, during the (19)40s and so forth. But for me, the important point about that is that it demonstrates how a small, active, committed, energetic group of people can define the conversation and present the issue, can enable the creation of things like the Peace Corps. As Margaret Mead said, never underestimate the ability of one person or a small group of persons to change the world. But I think it is important to keep that in mind, and it is important to keep that in mind now as we confront the horrendous global problems that are rushing toward us in terms of global warming and peak oil, and all those issues. Unfortunately, I think what happened with the disillusion that sat in that you had referred to is that we forgot that taking on a small number of people who were willing to take on those issues could really have an impact. Obviously, those set of subcultures created context where people with similar concerns could put their time and energy and emotion and get invested in, and that is what higher education ought to be about in relation to our general culture. It ought to be about helping persons with in fact, on this self-esteem, purpose issue, helping persons connect their own particular attitudes and values, conservative or liberal, but with particular social issues that they can invest themselves in, at the same time they're raising a family and earning a living and so on. SM (00:58:48): During the (19)60s, obviously more minority students were on college campuses than ever before. That is so important. More women were admitted into medical schools and to law schools, and some all-male schools became co-ed. So those were important developments. But you saw in the late (19)60s something that upset a lot of people that cared about coming together as a nation. That was the Black Power Movement, which was in some respects, the Black Panthers, that historic scene of Stokely Carmichael challenging Dr. King in (19)67 and telling him that his time had passed. Then in (19)65 or (19)64, the debate between Malcolm X and Bayard Rustin where he said the very same thing, the non-violent protests, its time has passed. So, what you saw at Kent State University and the protests in 1970 was an all-white protest against the Vietnam War with African American students and students of color concentrating on the Civil Rights Movement and Black Power. Did that upset you at all when you were in college, that you saw the Dr. Kings, you saw affirmative action coming in strong into the universities, and then all of a sudden you had the Black Power, which started a separatist movement again of dividing people? Just your thoughts on that. AC (01:00:15): Well, whenever you have a hugely important social issue that has a direct impact on individuals, specifically those who are subject to the injustice and unfairness and prejudices, it is very hard to address that type of thing without having both significant diversity within the movements that are addressing it and extremes. So that is part of I think the way group processes and social dynamics work. I mean, that is what we are experiencing now with the Muslims. SM (01:01:16): Yes. I have a question later on that, yes. AC (01:01:19): And the extremists tend to drive, for better or worse, the extremist minority tends to drive the conversation, tends to drive the political responses. It is very hard for moderates, if you will, to know how to function within those concepts. we see the polarization within our own Congress, our Senate and Representatives now are between the Democrats as Republicans, are being driven wider and wider apart. So, you have really good moderates like Senator Bayh and others who say, "Well, I guess this is not the way I want to work now." I do not know how to combat that fundamental social dynamic other than increasing education, if you will, increasing everybody's awareness and sensitivity to these dynamics and increasing their capacity to think in more complex ways about the issues. Unfortunately, that is where higher education is failing us, I think. SM (01:03:04): Yeah, and I mean, you had right on target because we did a conference on Islam just before I left. It was packed, yet we had criticism from the Jewish community for even doing it. Would you say the Muslim students are the African American students of the (19)50s? Which would you compare them to what was going on with African American students in the (19)50s? AC (01:03:29): Oh, first I should say, I do not know. I do not know the data and I do not know from personal experience. Having said that, I think the issue of racism was much more broadly based and widespread and affected many, many more people in the United States than the religious prejudices that are operative now, with regard to Muslims. I think a lot of the dynamics are similar, the magnitude of the problem and the numbers of people affected, they were dramatically different. On a global scale, I think it is a much more serious issue obviously with... We did not have Black suicide bombers. We did not have to worry about African Americans or other Blacks from the Caribbean getting the nuclear bombs to blow the rest of us away. So, the issues of scale and potential danger are hugely different. SM (01:05:01): What are your thoughts on of course, in the early (19)70s, the Black Studies programs were under a lot of criticism when they were developed, and I was directly involved in those, actually did an independent study on it when I was at Ohio State. But with the development of the Women's Studies, Native American Studies, Black Studies, Environmental Studies, Asian Studies, Gay and Lesbian Studies, Chicano Studies, is that good for a university? Because the critics like David Horowitz and Charles Murray and others, and Phyllis Schlafly say that this is nothing but the troublemakers of the (19)60s now controlling universities of today. They have been doing so since the (19)90s, according to these individuals, that we have a politically correct campus. That just is not obvious. Again, just your thoughts and the development of all these studies programs and the criticisms of political correctness on university campuses, particularly with our professors. AC (01:06:04): I think those criticisms are very far-fetched. In the first place, it would be much better from my point of view if the criticism was more accurate. That is to say if issues having to do with racism, with gender equality, with hot button topics like abortion or so on were dealt with throughout the curriculum, but that does not happen. So, in the absence of that, I think it is extremely important and useful to have centers, institutes, whatever for the organization form they take to keep these issues alive, and where students and faculty and others learn about them, but with which they can identify and where they can get involved. If you look at [inaudible], I mean both criticisms have ignore the fact that higher education is dominated now by a market mentality that emphasizes professional and occupational preparation. That has in many colleges and universities driven a whole series of policies and practices with regard to consumers, students and parents and so forth, that are a direct reflection of the worst of our capitalistic practices. SM (01:08:11): That is amazing that you are saying that. I had this down as my last question. This is not my last question because we have got quite a few more, but I got to read this because you hit a button here that was going to be my last question to you. This was, do you believe today's universities are so driven by money, for example, just about everything is linked to fundraising, including out of classroom activities like lectures, forums, debates, conferences, cultural events, that quality out-of-classroom experiences are being denied, eliminated, or allowed with a price tag to the detriment of quality educational experience for students? And i.e., I say, top administration wants to dictate what can or cannot happen, only if it means it can be linked to a fundraising effort during tough economic times. SM (01:09:03): The fundraising effort during tough economic times, did you feel that is happening? AC (01:09:08): Oh, of course. It is happening dramatically, and I am going to have to stop in a bit here. I think what has happened is that, I did the speech at Florida State. I [inaudible] also email you if you want. That addresses a bunch of these problems. And higher education for years was seen as the public good, and that is why we had all state support, why you could go to the California system or New York system, virtually at very little cost. Now it has seen as a private benefit. State support now is, last numbers I saw for public institutions, is in the order of 20 or 25 to 30 or 35 percent. And as state support has dropped, states have authorized tuition increases to cover the cost. We are moving back into a meritocratic, aristocratic orientation for higher education. And that major shift in the last 10 or 20 years is what has driven this whole mentality that you're talking about. So higher education is not something that is seen as a politically important and socially important institution as a public good. And so consequently, our focus is more and more for professional vocational preparation and dollars drive the system. SM (01:11:06): We have got 15 more minutes if that is okay. Still there? AC (01:11:13): What? Say again. SM (01:11:13): We have 15 more minutes. Is that okay? Because that is an hour and a half. AC (01:11:17): Okay. SM (01:11:18): Okay, great. I am glad I got that question in. Kent State University in 1970 and Jackson State was certainly a monumental nightmare for the Boomer generation. Where were you when you heard about it and what do you think the impact of that day, May 4th and two weeks later when two African American students were killed, what impact did that have on not only the generation but on higher education? AC (01:11:56): I just have to say I do not know. I remember when Kennedy was shot, but I do not remember where I was when I got that news. Just thinking off the top of my head, I do not know that those two horrendous events had a major distinctive impact because they were part of the whole continuum of dramatic events and activities that were going on with all the sit-ins and demonstrations. They were an unfortunate, tragic extension of that whole process. So, in and of themselves, they amplified that, but I do not think had any particular distinctive impact. SM (01:13:00): Well, in your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? AC (01:13:07): When did the (19)60s begin and end? SM (01:13:09): Yes. AC (01:13:19): Well, I think it began, the early (19)60s for me and my family and the Goddard community were dominated by Cold War issues and the atomic bomb issue. And when Gorbachev came to power and that whole dynamic, if you will, started to get cooled out, I think that allowed us to turn our attention to other issues like the environment, race and other major social issues. So, for me, I think the dropping away of the Cold War was a major variable in freeing us up to address other issues, economically, politically, socially. SM (01:14:39): And when do you feel it ended? AC (01:14:42): With Reagan's election. SM (01:14:45): Good. That is a good point. I personally felt that when streaking started on the college campuses in (19)73, I knew it was over. If you remember, that happened in the fall of (19)73. AC (01:15:00): Well, you have all these wonderful details. SM (01:15:05): Yeah, this is your interview, but- AC (01:15:07): It is going to be an interesting book. SM (01:15:10): Yeah. The AIDS crisis was obviously a very important thing in the (19)80s and on college campuses, the AIDS quilt. There was a lot of sensitivity toward that particular issue and gay and lesbian students obviously came to the forefront at that particular time. Just your thoughts on the impact that the AIDS crisis had on the higher education community. AC (01:15:38): Well, it is certainly pulled out the whole sexual freedom that burst onto the scene in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, with the drugs, drink and sex. SM (01:16:02): Right. AC (01:16:12): But it is also in a more healthy way, helped us be more aware of and thoughtful about the whole issue of homosexuality, particularly among men. And I think that was a good thing. SM (01:16:32): Where did the universities fail in the (19)60s and the (19)70s? Are you aware, as obviously as a college administrator has experienced and a professor who has experienced so much, there has been little talk about the loss of a lot of the great professionals in student affairs who just burned out. And I have even read stories of some people became sick, some who died even because they could no longer take the students of the (19)60s and early (19)70s because many of the students had this philosophy, well, if you give into these issues and I will just make another 10. And so there was no, oftentimes criticism of the Boomers is that they were never satisfied even when administrations tried to satisfy them. Just your thoughts of, and certainly Kent State was an example of presidential failure, the President being away, and some of the other examples. Just your perceptions of the universities in the (19)60s. And when I say (19)60s, I mean right up to about (19)73, where did they fail and where did they succeed? AC (01:17:49): Well, I really cannot respond to that question. I was drowning, from (19)71 to (19)77, I was working 70 or 80 hours a week creating Empire State College. As I said earlier, I was focused on adult learners. And I knew about the University Without Walls movement because it started at [inaudible]. Empire State was associated with that, but I was really not tuned into the rest of the world of higher education. SM (01:18:37): Okay. One of the main questions I have asked beyond the question of trust is the question of healing. And everybody has given me a lot of different responses. I took a group of students to Washington, DC when I was working at the University at Westchester. And the students came up with this question because they had seen a film on 1968, and they wanted to ask Senator Muskie this question because they thought that they had gotten the perception that we were close to a second civil war in 1968 with all the divisions. And basically, I am going to read it here, if I can find it. Let us see if I can find, probably not going to be able appointed here. I think the basic thrust was, oh, here it is. Do you feel bloomers are still having a problem with healing due to the extreme divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, the divisions between black and white, the divisions between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Do you feel the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made the following statement true? Time heals all wounds. And so, they asked Senator Muskie that question because of 1968 and his response, he did not even respond in the way we thought. He said we had not healed since the Civil War and went on to give a lecture on why we had not healed since the Civil War. But your thoughts on whether you think the Boomer generation has issues. Well, I know they do not wear it on their sleeve as some people said, but do you think there are some of the divisions and think people care enough that they really have not healed since those times? AC (01:20:36): Well, I am no social historian, but certainly if you look at what is going on politically, we have become, and if you listen to seasoned legislators like [inaudible] and others, the whole culture of Congress in the Senate and the House has changed so that it has become more divisive, more acrimonious, less civil, less collaborative, and our whole culture has become divided. And I think the media, particularly the blogs and social technology media, which give a loud voice to a very small number of people. And so, you have extreme points of view that yes, a level of visibility and attention that unwarranted both by the substance of the basis for their comments and also by their numbers, helped drive these extremes seriously. SM (01:22:15): If you were to give a term to the Boomer Generation, a lot of people say they are the Vietnam generation. Some say they are the Woodstock Generation or the protest generation or the movement generation. What if you were to give them a title, what would it be? AC (01:22:45): Transition, I guess. SM (01:22:47): Transition generation? Do you think that the universities today did not learn from the student activists of the (19)60s and they are afraid of a return of activism? The kind of activism we are seeing in California right now with students protesting against the tuition increases, and there is a fledgling movement against the war in Afghanistan and other issues. But are they afraid of a return? AC (01:23:17): Well, I do not know about afraid of a return, but universities are typically afraid of vigorous activism. Anything that challenges authority or threatens the status quo is scary. And when it gets mobilized, and again, now if it gets mobilized by extremists, it make sense to be concerned. SM (01:23:46): Right. When the best history books are written, sociology books on the legacy of the Boomer Generation, that is those born between (19)46 and (19)64, what do you think the history books, books on higher ed, sociology books will say about this Boomer Generation? AC (01:24:06): They brought a whole range of ideals that went unrealized. SM (01:24:20): Good point. Now, I had this one little segment here, but we may go over. You have to finish right at 1:30? AC (01:24:26): Well, I need to stop in five or 10 minutes, yeah. SM (01:24:31): Okay. What we will do is real fast here is I am just going to give some names. Some of them were the heroes of the generation, and just your thoughts on these individuals that were all well-known during the timeframe. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. AC (01:24:52): Oh, they were good models. SM (01:24:55): John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. AC (01:24:58): They were fabulous example, each. Kennedy was flawed by his womanizing some, John. Jack, was. Bobby, in a way was cleaner, but also very aggressive, unbalanced, wonderful. SM (01:25:24): How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern? AC (01:25:28): They were my heroes. SM (01:25:30): You liked them both? AC (01:25:31): Yes. SM (01:25:32): How about Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X? AC (01:25:37): Well, certainly Martin Luther King is everybody's hero. Malcolm X played a major important role, I think, in strengthening Black pride and Black activists. SM (01:25:53): Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew? AC (01:25:58): Nixon got what he deserved, and Agnew should have been more severely chastised. SM (01:26:10): LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? AC (01:26:13): Oh, well, they were both wonderful populists and excellent contributors to the public good. SM (01:26:23): Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin? AC (01:26:27): I do not know enough. I recognize the names, but I do not know enough of what actually impact they might have had to make a comment. SM (01:26:37): Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, the women leaders? AC (01:26:43): Well, Friedan and Steinem certainly put the whole gender issues on the public screen, and Bella Abzug was a wonderful feminist political leader. SM (01:26:58): Dwight Eisenhower and Gerald Ford? AC (01:27:03): Well, they were establishment politicians that did not have... Well, I was going to say, have any enduring legacy. Of course, we have Eisenhower to thank for our national highway system, which has become a very unfortunate kind of phenomenon in the degree to which it has totally undercut investment in public transportation. SM (01:27:35): Robert Reagan and Jimmy Carter? AC (01:27:36): Well, as I have said, I think Reagan's conservatism caused major problems. Jimmy Carter, unfortunately, was not a very effective president, but has been a wonderful post-president the person. SM (01:27:59): How about George Bush senior and Bill Clinton? AC (01:28:05): Well, Bush senior was thought of a modest, mediocre President. Clinton was one of our most effective politicians who unfortunately was incapacitated by his sexuality. SM (01:28:29): 1968? AC (01:28:32): 1968? SM (01:28:34): The year. AC (01:28:39): I do not know. I do not have anything I identify with [inaudible]. SM (01:28:42): Was the year of the assassinations and the conventions. AC (01:28:45): Ph, okay. So sorry. SM (01:28:48): The Black Panthers, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, and Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, that group? AC (01:29:00): Well, those extreme activist for the Black Power, Black is Beautiful orientation were probably necessary and helpful. SM (01:29:19): Dr. Benjamin Spock and Daniel and Philip Berrigan. AC (01:29:24): Two very different people. We raised our kids on Spock and I admired Berrigan for his activism. SM (01:29:33): How about Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers? AC (01:29:36): Wonderful, wonderful example of conscientious activism. SM (01:29:46): Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali. AC (01:29:50): Well, two wonderful Black athletes who broke a lot of ground, especially Jackie Robinson. SM (01:29:57): How about the original seven astronauts? AC (01:30:02): Well, I think on balance, going to the moon was a good thing, although I do not place a high value on our investments in space exploration. SM (01:30:15): Robert McNamara? AC (01:30:19): Well, bringing a General Motors mentality to the Defense Department I do not think was very helpful. SM (01:30:31): Watergate? AC (01:30:34): Well, it was a wonderful demonstration. In its aftermath, one way it represented the extreme of political self-interest in Woodward and Bernstein revelations, turned out to be a wonderful example of how investigative reporting and democratic processes [inaudible]. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Arthur Chickering Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Chickering, Arthur W., 1927- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Scholars; Chickering, Arthur W., 1927--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Arthur W. Chickering is an author, scholar, and researcher. His research is in the field of student affairs and he is known for his contribution to student development theories. He previously taught at George Mason University and Goddard College. Chickering earned awards such as the Outstanding Service Award from the National Association of Student Personnel Administrators and the Distinguished Service Award from the Council for Independent Colleges. He received his B.A. in Modern Comparative Literature from Wesleyan University, M.A. degree in English Education from Harvard University, M.F.A degree in Creative Writing from Goddard College and Ph.D. in School Psychology from Columbia University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-09 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.39 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 91:09 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4f4d3c26a75d5d6b7911195034803c16.mp3 5fb0d0acb87fcf5b55069604eaf4d676 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. 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Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56948">Interview with Eunice L. Davidson</a> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 24:58 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Subject LCSH Teachers -- Interviews; Davidson, Eunice L.-- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cheese factories; Syracuse University; Mathematics; Washington (D.C.); United States Army Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Eunice L. Davidson</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 11 October 1978</span></p> <br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Miss Davidson, could we start this interview by having you tell us something about where you were born and, ah, anything that you'd care to tell us about your parents?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Well, I was born up in Chenango County, in Tyner, NY. My father had come from—his folks had come, rather, from Saratoga and lived up there, and he owned a cheese factory there. My mother had come from down in Pennsylvania, and they married and then, ah—this cheese factory he had bought really was one of the very first, ah, cheese factories in this side of, ah, the—ah, the ah, Hudson River, and it really was historic. And it was called the Deer Spring Factory because there was a very cold spring there that, ah—and it was deep and they kept it—at that time they kept their milk down in cans, and the cheese in the spring, which they didn't have the modern equipment, but it was the way they kept it in those days to keep it from souring and to keep it just right. Then, ah, when I was four years old my mother died and we—my brother and my sister and I were left with my father. My brother stayed with my father while my sister went with another aunt over at, in—in the town of Smithville, and I was adopted by a man in Greene, NY. We lived in Greene. I start—my sister came down and lived with us, and we lived there and started in school. When I was in the eighth grade we moved to Binghamton and, ah, at about six months after we moved to Binghamton, we moved down here on Tremont Ave. and my mother and my sister or I—I have lived here ever since. Now, I didn't always live here, because I've been away to school and work. When we moved here, there was, this part of the city was, well, it had been farmland, and the barns from the farms were still here. There were one over here next door to us and there was one across the street, and the one that had the barn over there across the street had horses, and I can remember his bringing—if we wanted anything brought, we didn't have taxis, but he would bring it to us with that horse and carriage or horse and wagon, and of course there weren't so many buildings.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">I can remember when they tore the old barn down and then built up around here. They built the apartment houses over at #1 Tremont and, ah, then, ah, next door they tore the barn down, but they didn't rebuild in there but there was quite a little land with that building, a little farmhouse, and they had divided it up, built an apartment house at #7, and they built another house above that and, ah, we of course went to school here, it was, of course our schools were different than they are today. We didn’t have to have flat (one story) without walking upstairs. When I first came here, I went over on Washington Street to the eighth grade. I was in the eighth grade when I came down here and, ah, had classes over there. Then the next year, when I finished the eighth grade, they were starting to build the new high school—the Binghamton Central High, which is there now, and then of course we went to school over here at, ah, it's where the Abraham Lincoln School is. It was the old New Street School, and we had our classes half a day. The New Street School children came half a day and, ah, we went there two years in that school before the high school was rebuilt.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: When you went away to school, Miss Davidson, where did you go?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: I went to Syracuse University and put in four years there. A little incident that tells of how the times have changed, maybe, is, once—I was, of course we traveled back and forth on the train, and not by bus or cars as they do now, and we were stuck in the snow one day when I was coming down, up at, ah, just a little above Cortland, and there was a snow belt through there, and the train was stopped and we were there hours before we came through.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: What did you study in Syracuse?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Well, I studied Liberal Arts—I studied, Mathematics was my major and Latin was my minor. Then, ah, after that, of course, I taught for a while.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Which schools did you teach in?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Well, I taught up at, ah, Crown Point, NY, and I don't want to go into all—and over here, a year in Central High.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Oh, at Central.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: I decided then to get out of teaching and do something else, so finally after several years in which I did different things, I went to Washington, D.C. to work for the government. I worked in the Army Finance and we—which was very interesting, interesting in Washington, but of course we, ah, didn't—it wasn't the same Washington that it is today, but let me go back in when—I was in school, our education, I think we had a wonderful education, because they taught us </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">how</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;"> to find things, how to </span><i><span style="font-weight: 400;">change</span></i><span style="font-weight: 400;">. We weren't taught just one thing, how to do it. We were taught that learning was living, and we should really find out and think how to change, and of course mathematics is great for that because you can't solve your problems unless you think of all the angles, and that helps you in living today.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Miss Davidson, would you like to go back and tell us what life was like, ah, when you were living out in the country?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Well, when we were in Greene we had some wonderful neighbors. They did things for us. I remember in, ah, my first Christmas tree—one of the neighbors brought it and left it at our back door, and Mother, that was my adopted mother, was left alone. She had my sister and I there and she was trying to bring us up, and the neighbors really helped to do it, and when there was snow the boy over in the, ah—neighbor—one of the neighbors’ boys came over and shoveled out, I can remember shoveling out all around the house one day because he didn't know which door we wanted to go into when we came home, and another thing that was different in those days, I think the whole town knew who people were. They respected them and they helped one another. The churches worked harder. They were interested in the people and we had, ah, parties. I can remember a sleigh ride, going from Greene down to Chenango Forks for a sleigh ride. It was three sleighs, of course they were small churches. Once we went to another church and had a party down there and then came back, and it was things like that—that made life really interesting. One day we took some popcorn, went over to a neighbor’s and we had popcorn—ate it, and I think neighbors helping one another really helps. It makes life so much different than it is of today. Now we don't know our neighbors, they come and go, especially in the apartment houses around here, they change so often that we don't know them, and we have had some trouble with children. Well, one day we had a—they would pull up the—our posts that we have to help us come up the railings out there, and they keep pulling them up ’til one of the neighbors said, "Well, we needed that to come in.” And the children left it alone. I think that they don't realize what they're doing. It is the neighbors and knowing people, and then too, we didn't have to be educated to one thing.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">I think it all helped in growing up and well—then, of course, things were different, we—we had to do more things for ourselves. We didn't use taxis. I can't remember when we first, ah, used the taxi, of course when we came to Binghamton there was a trolley car that went. I can remember its going up to Ross Park, and we used to ride up there, although as a child I think we walked up there and we took hikes and beyond. We enjoyed that. The neighbors, not—there was a neighbor girl in school with me right next door, and we would, really enjoyed life in those days. Is that what you want to know?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Well, that's fine. Are you sure there isn't anything more that you'd care to add?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Well, probably there is a lot of things. There were so many things that happened that were interesting, but of course it came out in the Sunday paper about—that about the fires over town that weekend, remember those fires?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Yes, the Overall Factory.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: Yes, yes, we remember that when it happened.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Were you there?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: We were overtown, Mother and I—were overtown, but ah, we didn't go to it or anything. We could just see the smoke and all from that.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Thank you very much, Miss Davidson.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: You’re welcome.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: It's been nice talking with you.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Eunice: I hope it helps. There's so much that could probably have been said, but I just cannot think of it today.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Well, thanks again.</span></p> Date of Interview 1978-10-11 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Davidson, Eunice L. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Title A name given to the resource Interview with Eunice L. Davidson Description An account of the resource Eunice Davidson speaks of her father's cheese factory, the first one west of the Hudson, called the Deer Spring Factory. She discusses her experience growing up on Tremont Avenue in the city of Binghamton, watching it grow from farmland into an urban community. She studied math and Latin at Syracuse University and became a teacher, before moving to Washington, D.C. to work for the Department of Finance for the Army. She shares her experience watching farmlands change into more urban areas where she lived. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-10-11 Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 74 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Davidson, Eunice L. ; Dobandi, Susan Subject The topic of the resource Teachers -- Interviews; Davidson, Eunice L.-- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); Cheese factories; Syracuse University; Mathematics; Washington (D.C.); United States Army Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Extent The size or duration of the resource. 24:58 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/67ca71aa8b26b00f1ba56884bd6a019f.mp3 ad65ce184da3527f399520bbd2b14711 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Broome County Oral History Project Subject The topic of the resource Broome County -- History Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Description An account of the resource The Broome County Oral History Project was conceived and administered by the Senior Services Unit of the <a href="http://www.gobroomecounty.com/senior">Office for the Aging</a>. Funding for this project was provided by the Broome County Office of Employment and Training (C.E.T.A.), with additional funding from the Senior Service Unit of the National Council on Aging and Broome County government. The aim of this project was two-fold – to obtain historical information about life in Broome County, which would be useful for researchers and teachers, and to provide employment for older persons of a limited income. The oral history interviews were obtained between November 1977 and September 1978 and were conducted by five interviewers under the supervision of the Action for Older Persons Program. The collection contains 75 interviews and transcriptions, 77 cassette tapes, and a subject index containing names of individuals associated with specific subject terms. One transcribed interview does not have an accompanying audio recording. <br /><br />In 2005 Binghamton University Libraries’ Special Collections Department participated in the New York State Audiotape Project which undertook preservation reformatting of the audiotapes, and the creation of compact discs for patron use. Several interviews do not have release forms and cannot be reviewed.<br /><br />See the <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">finding aid </a>for additional information.<br /><br /><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Oral histories provide a vibrant window into life in the community.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender terminology that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these oral histories available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context 2 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright&nbsp; Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ben Coury, Digital Web Designer Yvonne Deligato, Former University Archivist Shandi Ezraseneh, Student Employee Laura Evans, Former Metadata Librarian Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant Jamey McDermott, Student Employee Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives David Schuster, Senior Director for Library Technology and Digital Strategies Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1977-1978 Relation A related resource <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/resources/44">Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections, Broome County Oral History project</a> Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE56945">Interview with Gladys Gitchell</a> Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Dobandi, Susan Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 17:09 minutes Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp3 Date of Digitization 2017-03-27 Interview Format Video or Audio Sound Subject LCSH Gitchell, Gladys -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); South Dakota; Department stores Rights Statement This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium <p><b>Broome County Oral History Project</b></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interview with: Mrs. Gladys Gitchell</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Interviewed by: Susan Dobandi</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Date of interview: 13 January 1978</span></p> <br /><br /> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Mrs. Gitchell, could you tell us something about your early beginnings—where you came from, what your parents did, and things like that?</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Gladys: Well, I was born in Alpoint, South Dakota. My father's name was James Campbell, my mother’s name was Villie. I, ah—he ran, my father ran a department store in a little village and, ah, his—my brothers and sisters and I helped in the store. It was just a country department store. One side was a dry goods store, one side was a bakery, and one side was a grocery store. From there we worked and went to school, which only took us through the seventh grade as we had to be sent to the city to go to high school.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">At that time I met my husband, Arthur Gitchell, and we were married when I was nineteen. We moved to a ranch outside of Reah Heights, which was a small town, and we raised cattle, horses, hogs and sheep and chickens. We separated the milk and sold the cream and fed the skimmed milk to the calves and pigs. He milked twenty-seven cows.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">When in 1921, we decided to come east to New York State to visit my husband’s people that lived on a farm in Apalachin. While we were there we visited his uncle in Binghamton, who was Hollis M. Gitchell, Water Superintendent. He talked my husband into taking a job with the city and staying in Binghamton as not only as having a better job, but also having better schooling for our children. So, we sent word back to South Dakota and had our properties disposed of and stayed on.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">At that time my husband worked in the Water Department and did an east side route for the city water by carrying sand and salt and a shovel and walking the route and digging out the fire hydrants and, whenever finding a frozen one, fill it with salt and making them safe for the fireman. At that time he was making $4.35 a day. Which—we lived on Washington Street at that time, we lived on Washington Street in City property between Hawley and Stuart, and I kept roomers, and in 1927 we decided to buy us a home, which we did, at 43 Andrews Ave.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">I became interested in the school—parent-teacher work, and did what I could with the other ladies to get new schools and improve our school system on the east side. In ‘21 when—was when the new East Jr. was built—no, that’s wrong, ’27, the new East Jr. was built, and in 1938 the new North High School was built. We called it the North High school because it was the north—the people on the northside wanted the school built in their district. So, we built it and called it North High, which starts the north side of E. Fredricks Street. It was a big piece of swampland and made a—by filling it all in, it made a—a nice football field and recreation field for both of the Central High School and the north side.&nbsp;</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">At that time I worked, clerked in the different stores in Binghamton. I started in at Fowler’s in the late forties. As the condition of the bus system changed, I found it more convenient to leave Fowler’s and come to the east side and work in a 10¢ store. It was on the corner of Robinson and Moeller Street, where I worked for thirteen years. I try now to keep very active in the senior citizen work, where I volunteer my time—the Greenman Center, where—which is located where the Pine Street school was torn down.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: Tell us how many children you had.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Gladys: I had eight children—four boys and four girls. They all became active in some business. My daughter has worked—my oldest daughter has worked for the Universal Instrument, which has business in a great many different places—Chicago, Canada, and different—and she has worked for thirty-five years as a cost accountant. One boy works for the Board of Education, one boy works for TV, colored TV repair, and my son James, who lives in Maryland, works for the Metro—Metro 77, which he has worked for them for the past year.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: You want to bring out that it's a new concept in transportation.</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Gladys: —which is a new concept in transportation. It expands—the Metro system will carry millions of riders to offices, schools, stores and recreation centers on both sides of the Potomac River. The automatic fare collection begins with the open of—the Blue Line, with the Blue Line you won't have to carry any extra change. All you need to do—need to do is insert a coin in a fare box—</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Susan: —fare box—</span></p> <p><span style="font-weight: 400;">Gladys: —a vending machine in the station itself, and into—you insert it into the slot and it pops right back at you in a half a second, and on you walk onto the Metro train.</span></p> Date of Interview 1978-01-13 Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Gitchell, Gladys Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Gladys Gitchell speaks of growing up in South Dakota before marrying her husband and moving, with him, to New York. She discusses her husband's job caring for the fire hydrants in the city of Binghamton and her work improving the schools on the east side of the city. She worked as a clerk at several stores in Binghamton and is now active in her senior citizen organization. She also discusses her children and their current occupations. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Gladys Gitchell Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1978-01-13 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Recording 75 Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gitchell, Gladys ; Dobandi, Susan Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource This audio file and digital image may only be used for educational purposes. Please cite as: Broome County Oral History Project, Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries, Binghamton University, State University of New York. For usage beyond fair use please contact the Binghamton University Libraries Special Collections for more information. Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-27 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Broome County Oral History Project Extent The size or duration of the resource. 17:09 minutes Subject The topic of the resource Gitchell, Gladys -- Interviews; Broome County (N.Y.) -- History; Binghamton (N.Y.); South Dakota; Department stores