36 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7f1520358a95f7bb880f09d988a4d3f7.jpg 763b251611ddc0f776bee2000df05736 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/345c91f792401939442e6340f42a4a0e.mp3 f987f0cf40c62b0e8b950e3bf3d660da Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sally Roesch Wagner Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Sally Roesch Wagner is an author, lecturer, and activist. She was a founder of one of the country’s first Women’s Studies programs and one of the first women to receive a Doctorate in the United States for work in Women’s Studies. Wagner received her Bachelor's degree and her Master's degree in Psychology from the California State University in Sacramento. She also received her Ph.D. in History of Consciousness (Women’s Studies) from the University of California in Santa Cruz. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":5039,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,5099745],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Sally Roesch Wagner is an author, lecturer, and activist. She was a founder of one of the country’s first Women’s Studies programs and one of the first women to receive a Doctorate in the United States for work in Women’s Studies. Wagner received her Bachelor's degree and her Master's degree in Psychology from the California State University in Sacramento. She also received her Ph.D. in History of Consciousness (Women’s Studies) from the University of California in Santa Cruz. </span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 158:01 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Women's Rights Movement; Drug Revolution; Baby boom generation; Racism; Beat \nGeneration; Activism; Kent State; Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Feminism "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":7101,"3":{"1":1},"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial"}">Women's Rights Movement; Drug Revolution; Baby boom generation; Racism; Beat Generation; Activism; Kent State; Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Feminism. </span> Subject LCSH Authors, American; Lecturers; Civil rights workers; Women's rights; Women's studies; Wagner, Sally Roesch--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Sally Roesch Wagner Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: Not Dated --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two. Sure. That is very good. All right. SW (00:00:04): Okay. SM (00:00:04): And when you think of the (19)60s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? SW (00:00:28): A door opening into the future. SM (00:00:34): Explain. SW (00:00:35): And then closing. But the door stayed open long enough that we learned how to get inside. We saw a vision of what the world could be. We saw the way that people could be with each other personally, and also a vision of how the social structure could be transformed to create new human beings. SM (00:01:10): When you hear, and this has always struck me, as a person who is a boomer, when you hear people like Newt Gingrich in 1994, when the Republicans came to power, and George Will, I am just using them as examples, who oftentimes in his writings, anytime he can take a shot at the boomer generation, he will do it, is oftentimes is the breakdown of American society that a lot of the problems that we have today, they blame on that time, that era, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, the young people, the drug culture, the sexual revolution, lack of respect for authority, the antagonisms and the deep divisions. How do you respond when you hear people like that? SW (00:02:04): They are absolutely right. They are absolutely correct. And it is sort of like, yes, we did that. One person's breakdown is another person's breakthrough. And I think that the analysis that that sort of the facade of a happy family, the facade of a generous and just country, the facade of all of us being the same cracked in the (19)60s. We smashed that facade. And breaking through that then opened the door, we were in the center I think in the midst of a cultural revolution. But I think that it is a cultural, political, spiritual, personal. It is a revolution that I am not sure there has ever been one like this in the world. I know my background really is studying the 19th century, and it is very reminiscent of the mid-19th century in terms of radical reform movements all springing up simultaneously and feeding each other. And I think that in some ways they opened a door and saw a vision into the future, and they set the blueprint for the 20th century, and we know are setting the blueprint, or the 20th century, the (19)60s set the blueprint for all the work that we are doing now. And what is interesting to me is that the people that opened that door and saw the vision now are institutionalized and making institutional changes. Because at some point we realized, and I think this was the strength of the woman's movement, we realized that there were no personal solutions. And if one's to point, I do not know if we ... Point to the one major brilliance of the woman's movement, I do not know if there was one major and is such a powerful transformative engine, but one brilliance of it was women are not messed up, we are messed over. And we actually used the F word, but it was the idea that we were tranquilized. Then it was a more primitive tranquilizer, if you will. What was it then? That women were constantly, if they were unhappy with their situation, they were put on tranquilizers, on meds, and they still are today, but probably in greater numbers. But what we realized was as we began to share our personal stories and break down the personal isolation that we felt, we began to understand that it was not our personal problems, but that it was institutional. And I think that was the moment of understanding that there had to be systematic, systemic, institutional changes before we could create a just world, before we could create an equal. SM (00:05:42): One of the questions that I always ask, and just general questions about the boomers, is when boomers, boomers are defined as those individuals born between 1946 and (19)64. But I have also noticed if you know anything about the (19)60s that a lot of the leaders were born in (19)42, (19)43, (19)44, 45. So a lot of people do not like these, got to define a generation and limit it to these particular years. But the question that comes up often is longevity. And this is oftentimes a criticism we hear today toward boomers who are now reaching 62 years of age, first year of social security [inaudible] this year. The front liners. Is did they carry their ideals and beliefs beyond that period when all these movements and these feelings that change can happen, that we can be make a difference in this world? And which was really part of the (19)60s and even in the (19)60s is really up to (19)73, (19)74, and then so much happened after that. But can you separate female boomers from male boomers and just the experiences you have seen of female boomers, have they carried their ideals into middle age and older age, or had they fallen by the wayside as many men had done in careers and making money and raising families? SW (00:07:10): I belong to an organization called Veteran Feminists of America, women who were active between (19)60 and (19)73. And what happens in the meetings of that, some of the gatherings that I have attended in this group is that women sit around and [inaudible] about are we the only feminists left? These young women, they do not have any idea of feminism. They are not part of the movement. And then I talked to my students at Zurich University, 18 and 19-year-old women who are reinventing feminism and they wonder if they are the only ones or what happened to all the feminists from before. One of the things we hope to do at the Gage House is to do more intergenerational things. The things we have done have been really effective. And what is interesting is that I teach 19th century at Syracuse University, 19th century women's rights history. What my students really want to hear about is my experience in the (19)60s. So I do back and forth. I talk about what the first wave women did, how far they brought it, and then where we took it, and then here is where you need to take it and make those connections. But we still alive and kicking, are we still? See, I think part of it is a masking. Elizabeth Katie Stanton understood that if she started out her lectures with a story about her grandchildren and her fat, little sausage curls, white hair, she could do the most radical thinking and say the most radical things. On her 80th birthday they had this huge celebration and it was, what was it? It was some big gathering place in New York City and there were thousands of people there. Now this is the moment when she could have said, "Thank you all so much. I am so honored that you are here." You know what she said? Yeah, we were going to get our right to vote pretty soon and we have made some inroads on some of the things that we need. All we need to really do now is look at going after the real enemy, and that is the church. What we need to do is the Bible was not written by God, it was written by man out of his love of domination. She wrote in her women's Bible that year, and she said, "What we need to do, because it is a manmade document like the Constitution or other men made documents, we need to change it to meet the times. So we need to rewrite the Bible." This is on her 80th birthday, and one of her mottoes became, I shall not grow conservative with age. But taking my direction from her, the ideas that come out of my mouth have not changed. If anything, they were more transformational than they have ever been, but I have lost the language. I have dropped the language of division in some cases. I mean, feminism is a word obviously that needs to be held onto, but there was a lot of jargon that we developed that is as unappealing to me as academic jargon. What you essentially are doing is creating a separate isolated group that does not know how to communicate with the masses. So my process personally has been to unlearn academic speak and to write in the language as accessible as possible. My audience has been my grandson for years. He is now 25, but he was my audience when he was 10. If I could not say it in a way that was understandable to him, I needed to go back to the drawing board and make it accessible. So someone listening is going to go, she do not talk like the (19)60s, she do not look like the (19)60s. I know. Adopt protective coloration. And what that means is exactly like Elizabeth Katie said, this gray hair is my passage into passing. It is like I belong to the Rotary Club, and as a Rotarian, there is all kinds of possibilities of making connections with people. And what I find is that the ideas of the (19)60s just simply makes sense. And if they are presented in a way that does not frighten people or that does not create separateness, join my club and you have to accept all this. And I have learned a lot of this from my grandchildren and from younger people to speak in a language that really... I mean, I seriously go through this process with my grandkids every time I am with them. I listen to their music, I watch their movies, I go shopping with them to see what page they are on with that. I ask them to bring me up to speed technologically. And in the process of that, I learn what they care about, what their issues are, what their vision is, what they want to see happen in the world. And I take direction from that. SM (00:12:42): When you look at the boomers, again, one of the things that was awful often another criticism of the boomers is that even though they were a generation of 70 to 74 million depending on what book you read, is that only really only 15 percent really participated. So you are talking about 85 percent that were not involved in any capacity and in the anti-war movement, the women's movement, the civil rights, the environmental, gay and lesbian, all the movements, and people like to use that as a criticism. But I have always looked upon it as a positive because when you consider 15 percent of 70 million, that is a heck of a lot of people. But have you heard that criticism? SW (00:13:32): Yeah. SM (00:13:33): And often- SW (00:13:33): And it is silly. SM (00:13:33): And actually they may even be doing it today's generation, they always try to put percentages under. SW (00:13:38): And it is percentages and invisibility. How do you stop a revolution that is already in progress? Well, you deny it is happening. And today it is going on, bingo in front of our eyes. And what is wonderful is that I think because it is under the radar screen, the advantage of it is that there is this whole infrastructure that is being created, that once the old tumbles, the infrastructure will be in place. Everything from what we eat to how we interact with each other, to how we live in our houses, to how we... I mean, the infrastructure of the important stuff, how we educate, that is in place. And when the trappings fall off, if we survive, I think the infrastructure is tight. But there is a couple of things about that. The silliness of, come on, how many people made the American Revolution? That was a disgustingly small- SM (00:14:41): Very small. SW (00:14:43): ...Of leadership, and it was not diverse. Now the (19)60s was more diverse, but what is wonderful about the movement today is it is so diverse and it is so multidimensional that nobody can get a handle on it. It cannot be destroyed. It cannot be sought out and systematically deconstructed or attacked the way that the government attacked the (19)60s. You identify the leaders. You place drugs in there, you send out bogus information about them, all the stuff we know the government was doing now through COINTELPRO. We know that the government systematically, and we know that they systematically murdered the Black Panthers at the same time that they are destabilizing governments all over Central America. I mean, now that was in the (19)60s. Shocking news that was like, could it really be true? Could it really be true? And we had to have it proven to ourselves every way until Sunday before we believe it, I think. But we were the canaries in the mines. We were the ones who were saying first, it is going on, it is going down. And I think now that is general knowledge. But I think the other thing about the (19)60s and about it being a small percentage, Samuel J. May, who is one of my favorite dead guys, I love this guy. Somebody, I think it was Garrett Smith, said, "Heaven is sweeter with May's presence." After he died. Samuel J. May was one of the most principled, thoughtful, progressive men that I have ever known. SM (00:16:41): When did he live? SW (00:16:42): 19th century. But he wrote a book after, he was the Unitarian minister here in Syracuse, and a good friend of Matilda Jocelyn Gages. He wrote after the Civil War, a book called Recollections of our Late Great Anti-Slavery Conflict. And he is furious because people did not step forward when they should have, including the Unitarians. And he names-names of people who voted the wrong way on the issue regularly. And his contention is there never would have been a civil war if enough people would have stood up, and especially if the churches would have opposed slavery. And so he is holding the, as a minister, he is holding the church's feet to the fire. But the standard thing he talks about and that everybody that does 19th century anti-slavery history talks about, is that after the Civil War, everybody's home was a station on the Underground Railroad. And similarly today, everybody was involved in the (19)60s. And my question to people who say, "Yeah, I was there." Is can I see your FBI file? I should have brought mine. SM (00:18:03): I have never gone down to look at mine. I know one of my friends did and he was very disappointed because he said it was all marked up and he could not read anything. SW (00:18:14): Yeah. SM (00:18:14): He could not read anything. SW (00:18:15): No, mine is about this thick. And I take it in and show my students. I did the FBI and CIA both, and I really encourage you to do it. You need to do it for this book. You need to ask for your FBI file to see if you have a record. And it is really important. And my kids looking at it, it really helped them to frame what was going on during that time. And I take it in to show my students. They are so afraid, they are indentured servants today because they are indentured to their parents. If they are at a private college like SU, and their parents are investing that much money in their education, they have to perform and they feel like they are very constrained to do anything. And I say, "Look it, there is life after, and you keep doing it. You keep doing it." But I think it is this idea that everyone after the fact wants to jump on the bandwagon, but what it felt like to be in that moment and the fear of it, my kids will testify to that. We had to leave our house two weeks before Christmas because the local newspaper in Sacramento, the Sacramento Union, which no longer exists, it was a very conservative paper. They did a front-page story on an underground newspaper that we were doing, and they got it confused with, we had gone through a split and then there was Weatherman, and they said that the Weatherman paper was being published at the house where we were. SM (00:19:55): Oh my gosh. SW (00:19:56): So at the end, they basically say the cops cannot do anything. The judges are too liberal, their hands are tied, the newspaper is preaching drugs and murder, and it is published in a gray frame house on the corner of 23rd and L Street. Was like- SM (00:20:15): Wait- SW (00:20:15): ...When it was a call for vigilante action. So no, going through that kind of a fear thing with two little kids and then having the FBI come to visit, and having the FBI try to talk... The FBI went to the landlord and tried to scare him about who I was. I had never broken a law. I opposed the war, and was part of an underground paper, but the kind of political... To live through that kind of... I developed asthma at the age of 26, and it was purely from the pressure, the fear of that time. Now I am white. Imagine what the Panthers were going through at that time. And so for someone to come along now who did not put themselves on the line and say, "I was there in the (19)60s." Really offends me. I think it is a deep offense to claim a part of something that you never really put yourself through. SM (00:21:21): That is the same thing about veterans who are lying that they served in Vietnam, because that has been a big issue. Stolen Valor, which was the book that came out that Vietnam vets, they kind of hid themselves when they first came home. And now it is very popular to be a Vietnam vet. And well, we have even seen Joe Ellis, the great historian, why? Why would he lie to his students at Harvard about him? And he has got a Pulitzer Prize. People were shocked, of course, he is such a great historian. He admitted his wrong and he is back. But it is interesting, you raised some really good points there. Talk the talk and walk the walk. And that is the most important thing. SW (00:22:01): And that is a real important connection that it is like I feel like I am part of... I am a veteran. I belong to the Veteran Feminists of America. And I think it is important we call ourselves that because we have battle scars from being in the front lines of the feminist revolution and the anti-war activist's the same thing. We carry, and I do not mean to put my work as extremely important. I was not arrested. I was in a number of demonstrations, but I did not do CD. I had little kids. But I think to put a perspective on it, is to look at people claiming once something becomes sort of in that they were part of it, whether it is the innless of having fought in Vietnam or the innless of having fought against the Vietnam War, it diminishes the work of those who actually were there and doing that. SM (00:23:13): Those are very important points. And when you look at the boomer generation itself, what would you list as some characteristics, some of the strengths, qualities that both male and female and all ethnic groups had at that particular time? Just their strengths and maybe some of their weaknesses. SW (00:23:33): I think an openness to new experience. I left the conventional marriage. I was raised in a Republican household in a small Midwest town. My parents were high in the church, my dad was a banker. And the openness to change, the recreating ourselves, could not have done it without the support of each other. There is nothing individual about the revolutionary. And it was a leaderless movement in many significant ways. The women's movement really just emerged spontaneously, through spontaneous generation. We were all doing the same stuff all over and sometimes did not even know it until later. But I think that openness, a willingness to really go through major changes. A connectedness, a sharing, a creation of community, understanding ourselves out of the individualism of the (19)50s as community creatures, as creatures of community. And then as in the 19th century, the influence of Native Americans is extraordinary. Extraordinary. My work is on the influence of the Haudenosaunee women on the women's rights movement. And I am doing a longer book now on the influence generally on the basics of life on Native Americans. I mean, other people have done a lot of this work. I am focusing it specifically on women and looking at it through that dimension. But I think in the (19)60s there were ways that, as the movements sprang up and the connection between them, the learning from each other and the outsider voices coming together and sharing experience, I think there was a significant Native American influence on our sense of who we are, creatures of community rather than individuals. And I think that some of the weaknesses were a joy, another strength, joy. The marijuana for me was an opening into a world of spiritual that I did not get in the congregational church in Aberdeen, South Dakota. It was that passing of the roach in community that you took one puff, you did not Bogart, you shared with your neighbors and you experienced. It took us out of the framework that we were in as drugs have always done, psychedelics in a spiritual way. Once the mafia took over and once the neighborhood drug dealers were driven out by the big drug dealers, and once the paraquat was sprayed on the marijuana in Mexico, and once people started, and most significantly for me, once people started smoking marijuana by themselves, that was the end of the drug revolution. A lot of people that I knew got really injured by drugs and got strung out and it was not all good, but there was a moment of spirituality with it, a moment that opened us to another dimension that we sure as hell did not have growing up in the (19)50s. SM (00:27:51): Do you feel, I am going to get into the question on the (19)50s in a minute. Do you feel the feelings that a lot of boomers had, including [inaudible] and others, even when I was at Binghamton, that we were unique? We were different than any other generation in history, but I kind of already knew a little bit of history because I knew what went on in the (19)30s and there were a lot of student protest movements at that time too. And so I knew we were not unique in every way because there was an anti-war at that particular time. But that, do you think that is a weakness or a strength? The uniqueness. I have gotten unbelievable responses to this question when I asked. The boomers thought they were the most unique generation in American history because they were going to change everything. They were going to end... They were going to bring equality, they were going to end injustice. They were going to be the cure-all to all the ills of the world. They are going to bring peace to the world, love, brotherhood and all the other things. But in reality, that has not happened, so. SW (00:28:55): Well, it has not happened yet. It is still in process. Revolution, I think we were essentially right, but I think our timetable was off. We believed in instant revolution and they do not happen that way. SM (00:29:14): That could be a weakness, the concept of instant revolution. SW (00:29:17): Yeah. And I think that was, we were wrong about the timing. The thing about seeing ourselves as unique, I think was both a strength and a weakness. And as a strength, I think it allowed us to break from tradition and create our own path. And that is what I think is young people are doing that and continuing to do it and have continued to do it from the (19)60s. I mean, the punk movement in the (19)80s, that was another wave, another reinventing. And now into the fourth wave of feminism and feminisms, each group of women coming from a different culture, finding their own description of and their own way of feminism. And that uniqueness, that sense of we are doing something different, we are, was part of the energy that drove us. But I think there is a pain that comes in when you ask that question, because I go immediately to some of the meetings when some of the old lefties who had been hanging in there from the (19)30s and (19)40s when we would be in a meeting with them. And the arrogance of youth, the arrogance of what do these people have to teach us anyway? I mean, now I hang out with dead people all the time. Because I learned so much from them and learn constantly about vision and endurance and focus and the perspective I need. When I was arrested for my grandson, when he was born at the Seneca Army Depot, I did CD by myself as Matilda Jocelyn Gage because I had to do it quickly. I had to get back to teach two days later. So I had to do it right then and there was not anybody else quite ready. There was one woman that thought she might, so they arrested me and I was dressed as Matilda Johnson Gage and gave her name, but I had a picture of Michael in my clothing and they strip searched me and all that stuff. But Michael was right there by my heart. And when I was in the detention area, they kept me for about several hours and I was handcuffed and it gets uncomfortable after a few hours and was not the ones that I could... When I did CD at the Nevada test site, I could slip my hands out, because I- SW (00:32:03): ...slip my hands out because they handcuffed me and I had on a thick, you know the trick, you have on a thick sweater and so you pull the sweater up and you are out of the handcuffs. I went back and got arrested a second time, but once was his gauge and once was his [inaudible]. But anyway, so when I was arrested and I am by myself in this holding tank and this is in the (19)80s, (19)84, and I cannot sit down because there is no chairs or anything. And I am standing and it is hot and I have got this 19th century costume on and my hands are behind me and I do not know what the hell's going on in the other room. And I am getting a little nervous. I am really isolated. There is nobody with me, nobody is singing strong songs with me, like you need to when you are doing CD. And then there was a moment when one of my hands I realized was reaching back to Matilda Joslyn Gage and one of my hands was reaching forward to my grandson who had just been born. And I thought, I am just a conduit. That is all. I am just the conduit between the past and the future. I am just passing through. And in that moment, I knew who I was and what my place was. [inaudible] ever known, ever known in life. And that was one of those transforming moments. My grandson now has become the person that I am passing everything on to. He is my favorite person in the world. He is a writer and we write together, we are doing some projects together, but he has grown up with the idea that his grandma loved him so much that she was willing to be arrested to make the world safer for him. And the only problem with it is that I have two other grandkids that have been born since, and I have not been arrested for them yet. And so at one point my daughter said, Alex thinks that you love Michael more than you love her because you have been arrested twice for him and you have never been arrested for. So what I am doing with them now, they are teenagers, is asking them to think about what issues they care most about. And I am not going to do it while I am the CD or the ED of the Gage Foundation, but when I finish this work, then I want them to have something that they want me to make a stand for in their name, in their honor. SM (00:34:46): That is beautiful. SW (00:34:47): And Michael actually wants to do CD of the Nevada test site again, since they have started underground nuclear testing. SM (00:34:53): You remind me so much of just in the conversations I had with Daniel Barry and Philip [inaudible] and Elizabeth McAllister from Jonah House down in Baltimore. We never saw Phillip very much because he was in jail most of the time. I took students down to Jonah to meet Elizabeth, but I can remember at school some of the Catholic workers that were just secretaries in the department could not understand why I was taking students to go meet these terrible people who would go to jail knowing that [inaudible] had, not Daniel, he never married, but Philip and Elizabeth had three kids at home. Well, and they got mad at me just because I was introducing them to them and they did not like their lifestyle and they were not being good parents. But when the students met them, it was an experience they will never, ever forget. It was about commitment, it was about risk taking. And it was also what Dr. King used to always profess for those in the nonviolent movement is you oftentimes have to pay a price for your beliefs. And those prices are you must be willing to go to jail. SW (00:36:09): And Matilda Joslyn Gage said, you must be willing to give up parents, family reputation, and you will not see the end. You are planting the seed and those who come after you will enter into the harvest. SM (00:36:25): Wow. That is her right there, is not it? SW (00:36:29): That is her. Yeah. And this is her granddaughter, Matilda Jewel Gage. This is a woman that I worked with for 17 years, organizing her grandma's papers, taking her, recording her stories. She remembered her grandmother. And this is me as a graduate student at the University of California. SM (00:36:54): Oh yeah, I saw that. Yeah. I have been out there. SW (00:36:57): Writing my dissertation on Gage, and I was standing on the front porch of the Gage home the first time I had ever been there. Came on a research trip. And I keep this here because I remember that young woman standing on those steps being photographed by the Fayetteville historian, local historian, and thinking this house should not be privately owned. It was privately owned, and this needs to be, there is so much history here and this woman is so important. This house needs to be open to the public. Never in my life thought that I would be the one to do it, but when the house started becoming rental property, I came back every year to kind of check on it and do lectures here and keep in touch with Gage and the upstate radical reform. Dead people that I love and hang out with. And as the house was starting to go downhill as rental property, something had to be done about it. And so I moved back here and started the Gage Foundation to raise the money to save the house. And as we sit here, the house is owned by the Gage Foundation and the restoration will be completed by the end of next month, by the end of December. And then we start doing the interpretation. And this is a center where the ideas of Gage will... The (19)60s, the reincarnation of the 1850s and (19)60s and (19)70s and (19)80s. The ongoing struggle for justice is the story of that house. And that is my life's work. My legacy. Gage has been my life's work. SM (00:38:50): Is there a biography? Has there been an in-depth, like there is a brand new one out on Elizabeth Katie Stanton. SW (00:38:56): Not the long one. I have not written it yet. There is one out that is not very good. Gage and I wrote a short piece. What I will do when I finish up this work, you know how hard it is to be doing and raising the money to do this house and also doing the restoration and keeping everything going with programming and everything. I do not have much time to write, but I have started at the suggestion of Ken Burns, script writer, Jeff. Cannot think of his last name. SM (00:39:35): He was in Philadelphia last week, Ken Burns. SW (00:39:39): And his script writer. I wrote the faculty guide, Not for Ourselves Alone, you know the story of Stanton and Anthony and I was in that film and... Is it Jeff Warren, who writes all Ken's scripts, he suggested, well, at the opening, at the grand opening of the house of the film at the Waldorf Historia, I sat with the folks from Florentine Films because I had gotten to know him when I did the faculty guide. And Jeff said, I sat by him and he was kind of a quiet guy, and he said, I am sorry we did not include more about Gage in the film. And I said, yeah, I wish you would have. And he said, well, not having a biography was the problem. And I said, well, now the problem is that with Stanton and Anthony becoming one word with this film and becoming perceived as the leaders of the movement and you do not bring a third one in. If I write the biography, she is going to be this non-sequitur out here and it is going to be, oh, that is really interesting. Now let us get back to the real story. He said, do a triple biography. So I have got about a half a book written just from their childhood, looking at the differences between these three women. SM (00:41:11): This leads into a question on the tape. I will turn it over here in a second. But the question of movements that that is another quality, but what I consider to be a strength of the (19)60s generation is the involvement in many movements and the creation of some of the movements. Of course, the Civil Rights Movement was already ongoing. And then of course the Women's Movement, the Gay and Lesbian Movement, the Chicana Movement, Native American Movement, the Environmental Movement, they all kind of looked, and the Women's Movement. They all kind of looked to the Civil Rights Movement as an example and a role model. SW (00:41:48): That was the only one I really wanted to get because... SM (00:41:51): On the movements, a lot of these movements came about women, one of the big sensitive issues in the civil rights movement, and I know this from reading a lot about Dr. King, was the sexism within the movements and African-American leaders at that time. But even scholars have come to our campus have talked about it. It is a very sensitive issue. And obviously in the anti-war movement is the same way that women were oftentimes treated as second class citizens. There were the Dorothy Heights of the world. There were people like that that were a little different than a lot of them. But so those two particular movements kind of looked at women's secondary roles and I think away a lot of students of the (19)60s or people that studied it, looked at, well, the women's movement came about as a result of the bad treatment they received in the anti-war movement. So they went off and created the women's movement on their own. Could you correct that myth? Because there is a lot of perceptions out there that since women were not treated equally in those two movements, they had to create their own movement. And then looking at all these movements, because Native American Movement was very important, [inaudible], we have had several scholars on our campus talking about that particular movement. Certainly Ward Churchill's been a controversial figure with things he has written. But even the Native American, the Chicano movement and the Gay and Lesbian movement, and of course the Environmental Movement and Earth Day, he said, what is the truth in terms of what I just mentioned about the break and the creation, that was the greatest impetus for the movement was the way they were treated in civil rights and the anti-war movement. And where is the link between women and boomer women in particular, in all these other movements? Were they male dominant in the Native American movement, in the environmental movement? I know you think of Gaylord Nelson, who I interviewed for this project and Dennis Hayes, but I do not see any women that were in the organizing group. And I see Russell Means I see these male names coming out in just about all the movements. And just your thoughts on... SW (00:44:06): I think there is so many different paths to so many different directions to come at to begin to look at what is going on in the center of that question. So let me just come at it from a couple different ways. One, the 19th century movement came about because women were excluded from the world Anti-Slavery Convention in 1840 in London. That is the simple answer. And the simple answer is that the same thing happened in the 19th, in the 20th century. Women were, as you said, second class citizens in the civil rights movement. And there is some truth in that. That is the simplest level of explanation. But I think beyond that, that once you get a sense of liberation, once you get out of the box and you start seeing this is what it would feel like to be free, you realize that you are not free. And so I think it was not just male, female, the race dynamic entered in each of those movements in the Women's Rights Movement, the Gay and Lesbian movement, while gender entered into all the ethnic movements. The contradictions begin to become apparent once you are in motion. If you are in stasis, if you are just sitting tight, if nothing is going on like the (19)50s when there was essentially not a strong movement of change, those contradictions are not as apparent. But once you are in motion, and the truth for me personally, from that comes when my daughter that I just got off the phone with Beth, was at a women's rights meeting with me, women's liberation meeting in (19)69 probably. And we were talking about what do we need on campus? What do we want on campus? Well, we should get a childcare center. Well, how are we going to do that? Well, let us get kids to come in and take them into the administration building and the administrators will then see the need for it. And well, not too many of us have kids. How are we going to get kids? Well, let us rent them, let us see if we would rent kids. And everybody is laughing. Beth comes up to me and says, I want to talk to you. SM (00:46:40): Okay, there you go. SW (00:46:47): So Beth comes up to, and there is like tears in her eyes and she says, I want to talk to you. And I said, sure, honey, what do you want? She said, no, and this was a child that I did not know, and there was a change in her. We went outside and she said, you are talking all the time about women being liberated from men. You are talking about women being, I cannot remember her exact language, respect and being their own people. And now you are talking about renting kids. If you are going to talk about renting kids, I am no longer part of women's liberation. And I tried to comfort her. She said, no, it is like you got to listen to me. And that was the start of my kids forming a children's liberation group in Sacramento. And they lectured, they came up with a bill of rights of children. We formed an alternative school, the Sunshine Children's Collective, and the children were involved in the decision-making process. We would be in a meeting altogether and the kids would say, kids caucus. And they would go outside and go gather themselves and come back in and say, the children demand that. And they would say, you are treating us in this way and we do not like this. This is what we want to have happen. And that changed the way that I did, how I raised them, everything that happened with them, we ended up dividing our money each month after the bills were made and they made their own decisions about their own money. And then it is like once you get the concept of liberation, you immediately apply it to your own life. And I think that is the deeper truth that happened with each of these. And the wonder, and I think the strength of it was that I do not think that was an uncomfortable or an unfortunate or a problematic part of the movement at all. I think that was the richest part of the movement and continues to be. Where we in the woman's movement are constantly looking at our racism. And it becomes a working principle. Is racism at the heart of the woman's movement in the 19th century? By 1890, it was, and that is a story we tell at the Gage house that is not told elsewhere. The racism of the conservative women was allowed into the movement, and it was allowed to reign. And so in those parades in the teens, 1912, 1913, the Negro women are marching at the back of the parade if they are allowed in at all. And the white women are in front wearing white. I will never appear in white in any sort of reenactment or anything because it is an absolute call to white supremacy. And the movement was making the argument give women the right to vote because white women outnumbered Negroes and immigrants and women's suffrage is a way to maintain white, native foreign supremacy. Now, that is a truth that has to be faced head on. The racism and movement in the (19)60s needs to be faced head on and acknowledged and that is how you work through it. And my work became, in the (19)80s and especially in the (19)90s, I started doing a lot of work with Native American folks, just being friends and figuring out, ended up moving back to South Dakota for a time, take care of my dad after my mom died and did workshops on racism and cultural awareness with Lakota friends. And that has been a real training ground for me, recognizing the depth of my own racism. And for me now, it is like become a recovering alcoholic. I negotiate my racism day to day, but I wear it out there. It is not like I am not racist. Yeah, I am racist. I live in a racist culture. So denial is a way of avoiding it. And I think we did a lot of denying in the movement. The men did a lot of denying of sexism. White women did a lot of denying of racism. White men did a lot of denying of everything. And I think that the power structures, once we began to understand this is all about who has the power, and of course men are going to be sexist unless they are fighting it. And of course white women are going to be racist unless we own it, acknowledge it, and deliberately work against it. And I think that was the strength, was the confronting of all of our prejudices that were built on systems of power. And not just prejudice, but the power to maintain those. That is what racism is. It is not just prejudice, it is the power system. And so examining those power dynamics and I think realizing they have to be destroyed. And ultimately you have to remove power as a concept. SM (00:52:16): I think what you are saying, you remember Dr. King gave that speech on Vietnam. He was criticized in the African American community, but he saw the whiter picture. He saw all colors yellow over in Vietnam and black here in the United States. And so that I can remember the movement, the anti-war movement in the late (19)60s. And I think Kent State is the epitome of it in terms of that African-American students did not want to be seen or had their picture taken at that particular protest. And I think it was mostly it was all white students. And there were very few African-Americans at that particular time. They were separating from the anti-war movement and they were going strictly toward the civil rights movement and toward issues of racism whereas the white steels were continuing to be involved in the anti-war movement. So there was a big break at that time too. And the historic moments like Stokely Carmichael standing next to Martin Luther King, your time has passed. And the debate between Byard Rustin and Malcolm X, which was another one, your time has passed by Rustin, who was from Westchester, we had a national conference with him. He was one of those rare individuals that put white women in positions of responsibility in the march on Washington. Because Rochelle Horowitz, another great female leader, was a young, early twenties person who was in charge of all the buses coming in. And he was not very good at giving direction, but he had inherent faith in young people. And he went to President Kennedy, and I think it was President Kennedy asked Byard Rustin, who was in charge of all of the buses and everything? Oh, Rochelle Horowitz. He had never heard of her, but he was proud of her because she was given a heavy responsibility. So you can make a very relevant point here. What question that comes up that is a very important part of the interview process and that is this healing. Now, I want to read this to you. I have to read this to make sure I do not miss any point here. I want to preface this by saying several years back I took a group of students to visit Senator Edmond Muskey down in Washington. This is about a year and a half before he passed away. And he had just gotten out of the hospital. He was not feeling well. He had seen the Ken Burns series and he talked about it during that meeting. And we were able to get these meetings with the former senator because I knew Gaylord Nelson and Gaylord helped us meet nine senators. I am a big fan of Gaylord Nelson, former senator from Wisconsin. But here is the question, do you feel boomers are still having problems from healing from the divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth. Divisions between black and white. Divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. What role has the wall played in healing the divisions, not only within the veteran population, but in the nation as a whole? Do you feel that the bloomer generation will go to its grave, like the civil war generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this or has 40 years made this statement "time heals all wounds" the truth. And I just want to say that I have asked this to everybody, and I have had unbelievable responses to this, but I will mention what Gaylord Nelson said to me. He said, people do not walk around Washington DC on their sleeve that they have not healed. But in terms of the body politic, it changed Washington and the United States forever. That is the way he responded to it. But just your thoughts on the healing. Is there an issue still in this country on this issue? And should we care about people going to their graves with still issues? SW (00:56:18): I think that I cannot speak for what everybody is experiencing. I can speak for what I am experiencing and what I have experienced. The healing for me has been going through those contradictions. That has been the healing process. The healing process is the process of negotiating, how do I continue to fight sexism without always taking a confrontational stand as the only mechanism? And I employ a whole arsenal now, humor from native women. I have really learned to, it is like, you just got to tease these guys. It is like if you come from a position of power as native women do a position of real authority, you just kind of tease them a little bit. And I have watched native women bring down, I will not even name names of men, but just they know these women are in charge and all it takes a little bit of teasing and boom. There. So that is one tactic that I have learned. But I think that the healing of, it is to assume that it was healthy before. It is to assume that it was and something happened that now has to be healed. Well, it was really unhealthy. The healing needed to happen out of the (19)50s. It needed to happen out of that false unity and the breaking of that. And did we do it perfectly? God no, we broke each other's hearts. We hurt each other terribly. Those are some of the scars that we all carry. But what did you do past that point? We did not know because we did not know better. We have better skills now. People have better skills. They work with things better. Native Americans have always been able to really deal with contradictions in very respectful ways, in my experience. Just the people that I have known, the communities that I have been part of or been allowed to participate in, I should say. I have really learned other ways of dealing with difference that are not [inaudible], are not like the confrontational politics. That was what we were fed. That is what we learned. That is the only way we knew to deal with difference. That is not the only way to deal with difference. And that is really a very patriarchal way to deal with difference. There are a lot more effective ways and hearing each other, we are doing dialogue in the Gage home. And that is where you sit down with people you really disagree with and you hear what is going on with them. And you make a commitment that you are going to listen and that person makes a commitment. They are going to listen to you and you are going to hear each other. That is where healing happens. You do not necessarily come out agreeing, but you come out understanding and remembering the humanity of each other. And so I think that the healing is the process. The healing is the, we are healing not from the (19)60s. We are healing from the (19)50s. We are healing from the healthy breaking of the idea that we are all one and that everybody is equal and everybody is not equal. There is no level playing field. We have got to create a level playing field. And that means going through culturally and personally our own prejudices and the desire to hold onto the power that we have that those prejudices support. SM (01:00:22): We all know about the generation gap between the (19)60s and the World War II generation because lot has been written on it. I would like your thoughts on it, but the key thing I want to ask is, and I have asked this too, is what was it about the (19)50s, say you are a white... I grew up in Cortland, New York as a little boy. I grew up in Cortland through sixth grade and moved down toward Binghamton. And I did not see an African-American in any of the Parker schools where I went to school. And so when I think of the (19)50s though, I still think of very good times. My parents were always there. We had great Christmases, Thanksgiving, birthdays, PTA, everybody, even though we had the Cold War, the threat of nuclear annihilation that did not seem to affect any of the kids that I remember. We played baseball. Everything was hunky dory, everything felt great. We had black and white TV, we had the Mickey Mouse Club. We grew up with Howdy Doody. We saw the first Cowboys and Indians or everything we were raised on. Of course, the Indians from Penn, you know, read later on. They were always the bad guy. And I saw Roy Rogers, Dale Evans, oh, Hop Along Cassidy, all the things that the kids in the (19)50s grew up with. And the question I have always asked myself is if it was such a great, when parents tried to give everything to their kids, and we were not talking about every ethnic group here now, because in the African American community, obviously it was different in some communities, but it seemed to be in all these issues of the Cold War, the threat of nuclear annihilation, you were cognizant of McCarthy. Some of the bad things even happened in Washington as a little kid. Why did this young people rebel in the (19)60s? Because in their elementary school years, right up to about 1960 is when they were first going to seventh grade, the front edge boomers, why did they, all of a sudden, why did these things rebel? Why are they rebelling against their parents who tried to give them so much? And I only reflect upon it because I was pretty, must be pretty naive and pretty ignorant. And I think a lot of people were, because I never put two and two together as a little boy until I started getting seventh, eighth and ninth grade. And I started putting two and two and together on a lot of issues that were happening in the world. But what was it about those (19)50s that was showed really no sign that these kids were going to be rebellious? SW (01:03:07): I think you experienced it from the privileged position of a white male in a racially segregated community where you did not hear your mother's frustration, maybe, at not being able to fulfill herself. My mother was a very frustrated woman. My father was the patriarch of the family, and that was the way it was supposed to be. My mother should have been out there doing all kinds of things in the world, and instead she was on Valium. How many women during the (19)50s were on Valium? The privilege that we experienced, I grew up in a middle class family, had everything I wanted. Totally dysfunctional family, but everything was provided for, and my brother grew up in the sort of family that you grew up in. My brother grew up, it was hunky dory, it was... SW (01:04:03): ...You grew up in. My brother grew up, it was hunky-dory. It was joyful. It was fun. It was playing out here, doing all this. That is the white male experience of the (19)50s. My sister and I experienced a totally different childhood in the (19)50s. And I think that the discontent that grew, what you are describing was not a universal experience. That was a white male middle class experience. And you were kept in a privileged position where you did not have to hear other voices. My brother had no idea my mother was a despondent, frustrated, desperate woman. He did not know that. He totally did not. He was totally protected from that knowledge. My sister and I experienced it daily. I think that the 50s, for a certain group... And it was not that it was either great or it was awful, but I think that the contradictions were there of the unhappiness, the injustice, the things that were not right. I was watching for communist airplanes flying over Aberdeen, South Dakota. The Girl Scouts had duty up on the top of the Sherman Hotel, which was the tallest building in town, which was five stories. And when I screwed around and was not watching this skies carefully at night was certain that I was going to be responsible for the destruction of the United States because I failed to see that communist aircraft coming through. We did the duck and cover. We did the... And all that is funny now, but there was an earnestness about it. It was like we were the greatest country in the world. I did not know until I was in high school that there were concentration camps for Japanese in this country. Once you start getting the information, once you start knowing about the McCarthy era... I had nightmares in my childhood, and the nightmare was that my father was being chased by communists. And then it was a recurring nightmare and there was one that was even worse. It was the same nightmare, but at the end, my father turned around smiling and joined the communists/ and years of therapy, I could never figure out what was going on with this. But you know what it was? Once I figured out, my parents were friends with Karl Mundt, who was Senator McCarthy's right hand man. And my dad, as a Republican banker was saying, "Well, communism is just another economic system and it is one that makes most sense in developing countries". And my mother would weep in whale and say, "Fred, do not let anybody hear you say that. You are going to go to prison." There was a hell of a lot of shit going on in the (19)50s. And my brother was oblivious to it. My brother continues to. And my brother never became part of any movement. He went on to become a Republican banker himself. And I love him, I adore him, and he is very generous spirited, but he took a different path because he had a different childhood. My sister and I, in varying degrees have, become involved in social justice movements. And I was the one in the family who went the furthest out, and I think it was because I was the most discontent. And then tried to do a marriage in a traditional way, and that did not work. SM (01:08:12): Well as a kid, my dad used to win trips to Florida because he worked for Prudential. And I can remember something was not right, because all of a sudden as we drove to Florida, I saw all this poverty in the south. Well, that was a shocker to me. And since I was a history kid from the beginning, I started putting two and two together and I did it for the rest of my life. SW (01:08:34): So you can [inaudible] those kind of... For me, being in the fifth grade and traveling south, and there were drinking fountains with colored water in them. I go, "Whoa, that is so cool. I am want to drink colored water." So I went up to the drinking fountain and the water was not colored. And that was when I learned that there were different drinking fountains for... I was like, "Come on, what is this?" So yeah, those kind of experiences of seeing... SM (01:09:09): Do you think the beats had anything to do, in terms of a lot of the boomers, were they cognizant of this- SW (01:09:17): I sure was. SM (01:09:18): ...Beats and [inaudible] SW (01:09:19): I mean, I cannot talk about Boomers in that respect, but I can talk about beats. SM (01:09:23): How important were the beats in the (19)50s? SW (01:09:25): Here I am in Aberdeen, South Dakota in high school reading Lawrence Ferlinghetti on the school grounds to my friends dressed in... I had blonde black stockings and I got a false long braid to put on my blonde hair. And I got kicked out of school. I am reading... You know Ferlinghetti. SM (01:09:53): Oh, yeah. He still runs the bookstore out there. SW (01:09:53): Yeah, City Lights. And I am reading this really, really wonderful poetry about "To taste still warm upon the ground, the spilled sperm seed". And what are they going to do with me? I am the daughter of the banker in town. So they sent me home because of the false ponytail, because of the false braid. What could they bust me on? But my brother introduced me to the Beat Poets, and I am reading Ginsburg, I am reading Ferlinghetti. I was really influenced by the Beats, by the Beat Generation and by their writing. I longed to go to San Francisco. SM (01:10:40): Yeah, he is still out there. I think he is 92 years old now. SW (01:10:43): Is he really? SM (01:10:44): He still runs the bookstore. It is amazing. SW (01:10:47): Is that true? SM (01:10:48): Yeah, he is- SW (01:10:48): I have got to take my grandson there, my younger grandson, because he is doing a report right now on beat. SM (01:10:54): Well go into the computer and hit City Lights Bookstore and you will see it. I knew Ferlinghetti was still alive, but I did not know he was still connected to the store. He is. SW (01:11:07): I am taking my grandson. SM (01:11:09): And Pete Seeger is 91, and they see these great people that are... SW (01:11:15): And still going. SM (01:11:16): Oh yeah, Pete's- SW (01:11:17): The Ruth Putter Welcome Center here has named for a woman, who I am not going to tell you her exact age because she does not come out with it, but she is in Pete Seeger's sort of generation. She is a social justice activist and she funded the building of that, and she has been a social justice activist her whole life. And she is now photographing it because she is a photographer. And so when the house opens, there will be a Ruth Putter exhibit of the creation of the Ruth Putter Welcome Center. Of course you know what she is photographing: the workers. The workers in that house, I have been meeting with them, take stuff for them to eat and drink since they started the work. And do you know about Gage and do you know about this? They are now Gage scholars. SM (01:12:06): Are you going to have a big opening here? SW (01:12:08): Yeah. October 8th through 10th, the weekend. SM (01:12:11): Ah, I will come. SW (01:12:11): Oh, wonderful. SM (01:12:12): I will come. SW (01:12:12): That will be wonderful. SM (01:12:13): And I will ask my niece and her husband to come, and I will say hi to you and I will be here. SW (01:12:18): And you know who the featured guests are going to be? SM (01:12:20): Who? SW (01:12:20): The workers. SM (01:12:22): They should be. SW (01:12:22): So that is where... So is the (19)60s dead? Do people from the 60s still carry a consciousness? In everything we do. SM (01:12:32): Have they done a good job with their kids and grandkids in terms of sharing? Obviously you have, so you- SW (01:12:40): You know what- SM (01:12:41): But do you think that as a generation, they have done a good job of educating their kids and now their grandchildren? SW (01:12:47): You are going to be the answer to that. When you interview 120 people, you are going to have a better sense of it. Because who knows this? You will find this out through asking us, and I will tell you my story, which is all I can tell you. My Christmas present I already got for... One of the Christmas presents for my 16-year-old grandson, the one I am going to take to City Lights, is a subscription to Z Magazine. That is what he wanted. SM (01:13:14): Howard Zen is in there a lot. SW (01:13:18): Yeah. And I am going [inaudible] he has got a teacher that is turning him onto this. I rented through Netflix, the last film I saw was Flow about the destruction of water and the commercialization of water because my grandson told me to watch that film. So now he and I will have a conversation about that. It is my grandson, Michael, is the one who I pass all this on to. My granddaughter, Alex, fiercely independent young woman. My daughter Beth has established her own nonprofit, does animal rescue in California and large animal rescue, horses, saves the lives of horses. And then does programs with kids at risk, autistic kids, brings them together. Also, the sheriff's department keeps their horses there. So she does these programs that bring together the kids that are getting arrested with the cops, working together with the horses and brings together all kinds of class, race, gender, diversity, differently abled. It is like, here is the vision of the world. And this is the girl who said, "I am never going to be like my mother." SM (01:14:57): I will let you get your [inaudible] or something. SW (01:15:01): So my daughter, she went through this whole period where she said, "I am never going to be like my mother". The (19)60s were really hard on her. She was scared through a lot of it with the kind of pressure we were under. My son... And that way the kids would have totally different experiences, the (19)60s were the best time in my son's life. So what traumatized my daughter empowered my son, and he went on to, for a number of years, had a coffee house because he loved going to the coffee house in the (19)60s. So in the (19)80s he has a coffee house where he created community in the way that the coffee houses in the (19)60s did. SM (01:16:00): Now I am going to cough. I got a cough too. SW (01:16:02): The cough is catching. SM (01:16:04): Well, one of the things I wanted to ask you in talking about in influence and qualities that parents pass on to kids is the issue of looking back at the Boomer generation again, I can remember when I was in college in the Psych 101 class and the psychology professor saying to our class, "Let us talk about the issue of trust today". And he would ask the question how important we felt trust was in our lives. Then he said basically, if you cannot trust others, then you will not be a success in life. Trust is an important quality. But then you look at the Boomers because a lot of the Boomers might be defined as a very distrustful generation because of the lies that were told to them by leaders over time. And the lies being obviously Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which was a lie. The lies of the amount of people that were dying over there. McNamara and the lies that he told. Obviously Watergate and the experiences of Richard Nixon. And then even... And boomers were aware of this too, even though it might have been in the back of their minds, in the late (19)50s, they knew President Eisenhower lied to them because of the U2 incident. It was an on TV... I remember seeing it coming home from school, saying that Gary Powers said... No-no-no-no-no, he was not spying, so Ike lied. And I know Ike wrote later on that he regretted doing that, but still he lied. And then you get a whole lot of others. So one of the qualities is that that boomers did not trust anybody in positions of leadership, that is whether they be a minister, a rabbi, a president of a university, a corporate leader, a politician or anybody in their... They did not trust any of them. And I knew a lot of the college administrators were not trusted. [inaudible] whether this lack of trust is a real negative on a generation. And whether you even say, as some people say, "Well only 15 percent of the activists were activists," but that was a pretty much of a quality that maybe even a 100 percent had toward people and responsibility. Do you think this quality can be defined as part of the generation and is not really as negative as that psych professor said? SW (01:18:27): I think it goes both ways. I think that the healthy distrust of authority really democratized the country tremendously, because what it ended was, "Trust me, I know more than you do," from father to priest to minister to president to whatever. No, I am not going to trust you. You give me the information that I am going to make the decision. Matilda Johnson said the greatest lesson of her life was her father's teaching her to think for herself. And then what he did was he empowered her to be able to act on that. She confronted authority. She spoke truth to authority from the time she was a child. And I think that what we [inaudible] later in the (19)80s or (19)90s is speaking truth to authority, that was the democratizing of America for the first time, beginning to happen in the (19)60s. And it was because of that failure to accept on face value, "Just trust me". No, I will not trust you. And that was the healthiest thing that ever happened, that distrust. But it was accompanied by the creation of trust among each other. We could not have done what we did. You cannot be in a demonstration where... I remember the... What did they call it? The squad, it was in San Francisco. And they would bring in the attack squad from Alameda County, and these were mean son of a guns. And they were in full riot gear. You are not going to be walking up to those folks or you are not going to be walking and challenging that authority unless you can trust every single person that you are in that demonstration with. SM (01:20:35): You are right. SW (01:20:36): So the creation of trust, you cannot put yourself on the line doing acts that the government is going to be coming after you for doing unless you have some level of trust. And that is why the government came in and created the distrust among ourselves, sent out those lying letters about this person doing this and this person doing this. My FBI file, there is tons of it that I cannot read. It is just page after page blacked out. Why did they do that? Because there was a police informer working with us. They tried to destabilize what we were doing. They were pretty successful in it in a lot of ways. But trust was created in a new way in community at the same time that trust in authority was being destroyed, and I think the combination of that was incredibly healthy. SM (01:21:28): What do you think was the watershed moment when the (19)60s began and what was the watershed moment when it ended? SW (01:21:38): I do not have an idea about that. And I wonder if it is not individual for different people and entering at different moments. For me, the moment was when my kids were sick, and there had been a number of things leading up to this, a number of experiences. But I was divorced, I was a single mom raising these two little kids and they got sick. I went, took them to the doctor. I had been up a couple nights, not sleeping much, going to school and working, and I was really tired. Took the kids to the doctor, got antibiotics, and they were finally sleeping. And I turned on the news and here was that mother in North Vietnam with her napalm baby. And it was- SM (01:22:33): Kim Phúc. SW (01:22:34): ...The floodgate just opened. And it was like, I can take care of my children and they are going to be well, her child is going to die and I am the reason. My government is doing that. And I joined Another Mother for Peace, and that was my first movement into movement. I think each one of us may have our own personal moments. Was there a catalyzing event for everybody? That I do not know. I think it was more people entering at different moments. And once you entered, do you go to the point of origin? Do you go to the headwaters of it? I do not know. But once I entered, I was in flow. There was a movement, there was a river that I joined. And I think the movement quality of it, it was not individual, even though each of us joined at individual moments and came in. SM (01:23:39): You may have the same response to this question, but if I were to have in an auditorium 500 people from all over the country, male, female, all backgrounds, you name it, who were boomers, particularly those first 10 years of the boomer generation, and I were to ask them, what was the event that had the greatest impact on your life, what do you think the majority of them would say? SW (01:24:06): Cambodia, Kent State. The burning of the Bank of America in Santa Barbara. The Civil Rights arrests. The dogs going after the civil rights demonstrators. The murder of the three. I do not know. A lot of different catalyzing events. Cambodia, Kent State was a watershed. I do not know that it was "the" watershed, and I do not know if there was a watershed, but I would guess that you would get different answers like that. SM (01:24:48): Yeah, some people have said, well, the (19)60s began when John Kennedy was assassinated and it ended when Kent State happened because we knew it was ending. I had all kinds of responses to it. To me... And this is not about me, so this is the only time you are going to hear me. For me, the (19)60s ended in 1973 when the streaking happened on college campuses and I knew that something was totally different. Streaking was now the activity of college students. SW (01:25:22): There were things like when fashion designers started creating jeans and what had been secondhand store clothing became the designer label. When the tour buses started going through the Haight-Ashbury and hippie became a term. When the woman's movement, a lot of work has been done on when did radical feminism sort of end as a dynamic process or transform itself? And (19)73 is the date that is often used. That is why the Veteran Feminists of American voted that date. SM (01:26:06): That is interesting. SW (01:26:07): But see, for me, the (19)60s never ended. The (19)60s continue. The (19)60s are the center of my life. The (19)60s are... I saw that door open. I saw that open a crack. I looked inside, I lived in it temporarily, and I would never be satisfied until I could live in that world full time, and I will go to my grave working to create that world that we saw was possible in the (19)60s. And I still believe it is possible. If we can save the planet, if we can turn things around, that is the world we are going to create. SM (01:26:50): One other question following up, why did the Vietnam War end? SW (01:26:54): We won it. We won the Vietnam War. The people of the United States and the people of Vietnam came together and forced the United States government to its knees and we had the victory. SM (01:27:12): How important were college students in that? We saw protests really strong, (19)67, (19)68, (19)69. SW (01:27:18): Critically important. The transforming moment, the moment when I think the change happened was when we started, instead " Bring the troops home now," which is stupid. It just "Turn it into an air war". That was a dumb, dead end strategy. But when we started support the Seven Point Peace Plan of the Provisional Revolutionary Government of Vietnam, that was when we began to win the war, the anti-war movement. And we won that war. And I hate the history that says anything different. The people of the United States won the war against the United States government and we stopped that war. Our war was never against the Vietnamese. Joining together with the people of Vietnam, we got the United States government to agree to the Seven Point Peace Plan of the Provisional Revolutionary Government, and that was an extraordinary win. And if we taught history with that, what do you think could be happening with Afghanistan right now? If all those students that you have taught, that I have taught, if every student that was taught understood that the United States government was defeated by its own people and brought to its knees, we claimed our government, that was the victory in Vietnam. SM (01:28:54): How do you think Vietnam vets would feel about that though? Because a lot of Vietnam vets came back from Vietnam feeling that they were not treated right and they were not welcomed home. And this big controversy within the community, the anti-war movement in fact, that some people say it was never about the troops, it was always about the politicians. But then some vets feel that we should have gone all out and won that war, and the people back home were one of the reasons why we gave ammunition to the enemy, so to speak, to continue the war. SW (01:29:30): I distributed up against the Bulkhead, which was an anti-war paper that was done for soldiers. That stupid moment of believing that we were fighting the soldiers and that they were the enemy disappeared really quickly and was replaced by anti-war coffee houses for so soldiers. How come so many refused to? Why were there so many [inaudible] in Vietnam? Why were there... I worked with Vietnam Veterans Against The War. My idea was that if Vietnam Veterans Against The War and the women's movement came together in a coalition, we were an incredibly powerful group. And we were in Sacramento, and we did come together, and we sponsored a piece together and we worked together and we were allies, and we supported them and they supported us and worked with their sexism, dealt with their sexism. It was not perfect, but it was powerful. And the Winter Soldier investigation and those guys throwing their medals over the... This is a bronze, this is a gold star, and you can take them back because I never should have done what I did. That anti-war movement, the Vietnam Veterans Against The War still exist. SM (01:30:51): Yeah, that was Bobby Mueller. Do you know Bobby? Have you met him? SW (01:30:55): No. SM (01:30:56): And Ron Kovic. They were two of the three leaders of the movement. SW (01:31:00): They were. But it was a decentralized movement, too. And it was really strong in different parts of the country. It was very strong in Sacramento. SM (01:31:09): Just your thoughts on the music of the era, how important was music in the anti-war, and what were students and what were young people reading in the (19)60s, in the (19)70s? What were the books? What were the people reading? So it is a two-part question: the music and its importance within the movements, all the movements, and what were people reading, the books? SW (01:31:33): Bob Dylan's Like a Rolling Stone got me out of my marriage. That was my support system. "Once upon a time, you dress so fine. Threw the bums a dime in your prime, did not you?" That was my song. This is the song about white, middle class married woman leaving her life behind in a moment when getting a divorce was a travesty in my family and among everybody I knew. Dylan was my support system. Well, how many other people was he... If he could reach me, good Jesus, who did he not reach? I took my grandson to a Dylan concert when he was five, and I had him on my shoulders and I said, "You will grow up knowing that you saw Bob Dylan when you were small enough to be on your grandma's shoulders". For his birthday last year, I gave him a framed flyer that I had saved from the first anti-war demonstration that I took him to, and I had written on it "Michael's first". He was in a stroller. But the music was an absolutely critical part and it is a critical part of what we share. I share the music of the (19)60s with my grandkids. They play me their music, but we are listening to Dylan, we are listening to Leonard Cohen, we are listening to The Doors, we are listening to... That music was absolutely essential. It was an absolutely essential part. And then when the Woman's Movement created its own music, Holly Near, she is the- SM (01:33:23): Yeah, she is great. SW (01:33:24): ...Major, major figure in the creation of that. SM (01:33:32): Testing, one, two, testing. The first question on the second part of the interview here is about the issue of trust. A lot of the boomers did not trust anybody in positions of responsibility when they were young. And I think a lot of that is carried into their adulthood. A lot of them saw presidents and other people who they felt lied to them. And of course they were part of a generation that did not seem to trust anybody of positions of responsibility, whether it is a college administrator, a politician, a corporate leader, even priest, rabbis and ministers. Your thoughts on this issue of trust and whether this is a concern within the generation, that they were a very non-trusting generation and this carried on into their adulthood and how they raised their kids. SW (01:34:35): I think trust is earned. And I think I grew up in a generation in which there were very few people in positions of power who earned any trust or who earned a great deal of trust. And I think that the absence of trust was, there was a manifestation of the hell of the generation that we were just simply not taking the crap anymore. And when things happened like the Pentagon Papers, that became an official then who we trusted because this was somebody who was telling the truth. And I think the trust that was lost was because we were not being told the truth. And because there was an authoritarian, leave it to father, father knows best mold that we were breaking out of. And father does not always know best, and what we said was, "Father president, you do not know best about Vietnam". And I think that distrust continues. I will give you a manifestation for me of the continuation of the distrust. Medical profession- SW (01:36:02): ...trust. Medical profession, 100 years ago, their best treatment was giving people mercury, and bleeding them, and giving them purgatives, laxatives, which killed people. And in my time, when I gave birth to my children in the (19)60s, the medical profession's best judgment was, "We will give you x-rays to see how your baby is situated if everything is okay. And we will put you on diet pills because we do not want you to gain more than 20 pounds." Well, they gave kids leukemia with the x-rays in utero. And babies, we were told by old wives tales, "Should be fat, they will be healthier. Well guess what? Old wives tales, "Should be fat. They will be healthier." Well, guess what? Old wives tales, were better knowledge than the medical profession at the time. So for me, do I trust sonograms now? Hell, no. I am not going to trust those people that have a long history of being wrong. And so my relationship with Western medicine is a very touch and go one. There is times when I will step into it and times I will step out of it. And that is just one example of the president who, when George Bush takes us to war in Iraq, I think that the Boomers had enough knowledge of the untruth of the Gulf of Tonkin to know not to trust implicitly that there really was a reason to go to war. And we were right. There was not. It was based on a lie like the Gulf of Tonkin was. So I think that we are holding out for truth. And when truth emerges, we trust it. And I think that is the hope with Obama is that this is a man who may speak truth. We will withhold judgment a little bit. We will watch, we will make sure, we will see. But there is a sense that I have that this is a man who largely is a truth teller, and that is probably the first truth telling president that I have experienced. SM (01:39:06): Why do you think the Vietnam War ended? SW (01:39:10): We ended it. I think I told you in the last interview. SM (01:39:12): Okay. SW (01:39:18): We won. When the Provisional Revolutionary Government of South Vietnam, the NFL ... LF. God, do I still remember? I think so. Of Vietnam and the anti-war movement in the United States joined forces, we brought down the government of the United States. We stopped the war. SM (01:39:44): Is there any- SW (01:39:45): And we got the government of the United States to agree to, the sixth point, I think was first and then nine points peace plan of the PRG. SM (01:39:59): Is there, in your lifetime, particularly when you were young, in the (19)60s and the (19)70s, was there a speaker you saw at a college campus or an entertainment event that had really great impact on you? SW (01:40:14): Tons of them. SM (01:40:16): Could you describe some of them or list them? SW (01:40:20): Going to the Fillmore in San Francisco, and watching Grace Slick spell out, "When the truth is found to be lies, and all the hope within you dies, do not you want somebody to love?" Watching the last performance of Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young ... Buffalo Springfield, not Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young, when they were Buffalo Springfield. Their last performance as that group. Listening to Dylan transformed my life, Like a Rolling Stone. When I left the middle-class marriage, it was with the support of Bob Dylan singing Like a Rolling Stone. SM (01:41:08): Right. SW (01:41:09): Became my anthem, like it was for millions of my generation and political people. I was at California State University, Sacramento, and I was on the program committee, and also employed in that office, and I arranged for Tom Hayden to come and speak when he was part of the Chicago 8. And the president of the college canceled the speech because he said to me, when he called me privately into his office, "Free speech is too important to allow it to be used." Or, "Sometimes you have to cancel it to protect it." I think was his line, Otto Butz, President Otto Butz. SM (01:42:04): Oh my God. SW (01:42:05): "So I am going to have to cancel this, speech, Sally, and I am sure you will understand." Well, it was right after Cambodia and Kent State and we were living on campus. We would set up a Strike City on the campus. And I went back to Strike City and said, "What are we going to do?" Within an hour, we had plastered all over campus that Tom Hayden was scheduled to speak, the time, and we just went ahead. And within two hours we had silk screen posters all over the city of Sacramento, which forced the president to publicly cancel the speech, which then brought in the ACLU, which filed a restraining order against the president of the campus or the chancellor of the state college system, and went into court that morning, and we won- SM (01:43:00): Wow. SW (01:43:01): ...inside, on campus. SM (01:43:03): Wow. That is activism. SW (01:43:07): Was for a few, but I could go on and on, and Malcolm X. SM (01:43:13): Yeah. Since you had that experience, did you have some experience with some other speakers when you were a student? SW (01:43:21): Oh, yeah. We brought Gloria Steinem, Flo Kennedy, Malcolm X, I never heard speak in person. Ti-Grace Atkinson, who was one of the most brilliant of the feminist theoretician, Robin Morgan, I could go on and on. SM (01:43:41): Okay. SW (01:43:44): And it was also reading things, that it was an electric time when there was a paradigm shift going on that was just unparalleled, at least in my lifetime. SM (01:44:05): In your very unbelievable credentials, you started the first women's studies program, according to what I have read, and of course you had the first PhD in women's studies. First off, could you describe starting that first women's studies program, where, when, and the reaction, both positive and negative, toward that experience? SW (01:44:31): Well, let me clarify. It was, as far as we know, the third, when the studies program in the country, I was one of the founders. None of those things were done by individuals, you know, the creation of programs, it was a movement. SM (01:44:52): Mm-hmm. SW (01:44:53): And I was a part of that. And I was, I think a very strong, I do not mean to underplay my part in it, I taught the first women's studies class at California State [inaudible]. And I held the meetings that led to the creation of the women's studies program. In my role as an employee in the Honor Center, we had the very first discussion in 1969 on campus that led to the creation of the program. I taught my first class in 1970. I have been teaching women's studies for 39 years. That may be a record, but God, that said, I did play an important role. But that women's studies program grew out of these meetings that I put together on campus in the honors program. They were sponsored by the honors program. I was a work study student employed by honors. I could basically set up whatever kind of discussion events I wanted. So I did series on women's studies, or was not even women's studies. There was not such studies then, it was on women's rights, you know, on feminism. SM (01:46:14): Mm-hmm. SW (01:46:15): Called it at that time, women's liberation. And so we had a series of talks about it. And whoa, oh, it was amazing. And the faculty that came and just tore us up one side and down another in terms of, "Women are not in an unequal position. Women really hold power and authority. And men are the ones who are really put upon by women." And I do not know, it was a class warfare. And so right from the beginning, you know, the opposition, just dreadful. SM (01:47:03): Yeah. That leads right into my, what year was that too, by the way? SW (01:47:08): 1969 was when we held the meeting. I think (19)70 was when I taught my first women's studies class. And I think, I am pretty sure that was the first one on our campus. And that was early for women's studies classes in the country. And then I think we got the program together in about (19)71. SM (01:47:36): If there has been anything that has hurt the movement since the early (19)70s, what would it be? SW (01:47:44): There has been all kinds of things that have hurt the movement. I think the backlash was inevitable. And the backlash was predictable, although we did not know it at the time. But that was very painful. I think another very difficult thing was that we want to create a system that was not based on power over, but that was based on power with. And we did not know how to do that. And we did not know how to work with each other. We were forging relationships and building relationships at the same time that we were trying to build a movement and we had political differences, and we did not know how to deal with those in any kind of respectful way. The one model we had was confrontation politics, and we used that on each other. And that was not the most effective thing. That was injurious. We hurt each other. And I think into the (19)80s, when, was it Rush Limbaugh that created the term feminazis? The damage of that. Young women today, "No, I am not a feminist." Even older women today, "I am not a feminist," because they have that right-wing media created image of what feminist is. And then it is just the standard thing, we all know that [inaudible] said, " Well, you believe in blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." And, "Of course I believe in all those." "Well, that is what feminist is." "Yeah, but I am not a feminist." The word became so- SM (01:49:46): Wow. SW (01:49:47): ...[inaudible]. And that is true of many moves. And that is true of many- [inaudible] SM (01:49:52): How do you deal with the criticisms like, well, I know David Horowitz has written about it, but how do you respond to critics who say that, "The women's movement, like all the other movements of that era, is more about indoctrination than education. And it is part of the new left. The new left has taken over." SW (01:50:13): That is bullshit. I do not know. How do I respond? It is bullshit. It is reactionary bullshit. Indoctrination? I do not know. I do not like to waste my time with working against those kinds of statements. Spend all your energy matching is just, it is bullshit. SM (01:50:47): Who stands out as the- SW (01:50:49): It was not a perfect movement. I think to expect a movement to have perfection, it is a crazy expectation. And I think that to make those kind of sweeping statements, there is an arrogance to that that I just find so offensive that I do not want to be in the same room with the person that would make that kind of a quote. SM (01:51:18): Right. SW (01:51:18): So it is like you just waste your time. SM (01:51:26): Well, the other thing here is that, one other criticism might be, do you think that the movement's criticizing the stay-at-home moms has helped the movement in any ways? Because some moms may have wanted to go out and work, but others wanted to stay-at-home and raise the kids. And that is the mothers who were in the (19)40s, (19)50s, and early (19)60s, you know, who raised a lot of the boomers. SW (01:51:47): No, I think if you want the indoctrination. Indoctrination came from the way that we were depicted incorrectly in the media. There was this Shulamite Firestone wrote book in which she talked about biological and [inaudible]. I bought that book early on, that was an idea that we played with. And I think our goal was to create options for women. The media created an artificial war between working moms and stay-at-home moms. And the economy is what created, women having to go out into the workforce and not have an option. You know, it is a middle-class luxury for women today, being able to think about being a stay-at-home mom. SM (01:52:46): Mm-hmm. SW (01:52:52): Most families have to have two people working. And part of the reason is because women do not get equal pay for equal work. And there is no legislation prior to this [inaudible]. And now we have respect better, but we still do not have equal pay or equal rights guaranteed. And seminars still making 78 cents on the dollar to men are making. And we are in the United States, and in economics we are beat up in every single area of work. And if people are being laid off, and, and, and, and. It is a false fight between working moms and stay-at-home moms. And there were some women in the movement who made statements about an end to motherhood, an end to the nuclear family. [inaudible] family being based on male power was one of the things that we went after, not the family unit, but the idea of the fatherhood knows best, the head of the family is going to make all the decisions, and who has the right to beat the wife into submission until she just go along with it. In the (19)60s, wife battering was not a crime. It was not punished. It was a domestic dispute and cops did not want to get in the middle of it. So it was as it should be and it was really not an option. You stayed with your husband. You know, it was your fault. Have to figure out what you should do different. SM (01:54:57): What- SW (01:54:59): So I think those are the real issues and it is a diversionary tactic to get people looking at some false issue like some division between working moms and stay-at-home moms, which only affects a wealthy, privileged part of the population, anyway, even considers staying at home. That is bogus, in my mind. SM (01:55:17): Who stands- SW (01:55:17): That is a diversion from the real issue. SM (01:55:27): Who stands out, especially for young Boomer women that- SW (01:55:31): What? SM (01:55:33): Who stands out as the number one role model for Boomer women and- SW (01:55:38): For what women? SM (01:55:41): Boomer. SW (01:55:43): Oh, Boomer. SM (01:55:44): Yeah, the female Boomers. So was there one person in that late (19)60s, early (19)70s, through the (19)70s, into the (19)80s that stood out more than anybody else? SW (01:56:06): That is an antifeminist question. SM (01:56:06): Oh, it is? SW (01:56:06): Yeah. We were creating a leaderless movement. SM (01:56:06): Okay. SW (01:56:07): And I think that we were inventing ourselves, and a movement, and what we wanted. Now, the media created spokespeople, the media created leaders, the women's movement did not. SM (01:56:25): Okay, well, that is important. That is a magic moment in the interview, because I just learned something, because I am really into leadership. I am always into, well, what makes a leader, and how do they evolve, and where do they come from, and all that other stuff. And can I ask one other thing, though? If it is a leaderless movement, who were some of the Boomers that may have been in their late teens and 20s that have really gone on to be outstanding leaders today? SW (01:56:55): I think that if you look for leaders, you miss the movement, then and now. That if you looked for an individual, you look for five outstanding people, you are going to miss that this is an entire movement. And there are some who gained more visibility for whatever reason within the movement. When we first started out in women's liberation in Sacramento, the media was always saying to us, "Who is your leader? Take us to your leader. We want to talk to whoever is in charge." And they were nuts, because we would say, "We are all in charge. You can talk to any of us, because we have to get the spokesperson. We are all spokespeople." And they demanded that we give them a spokesperson. And sometimes we could not get any media coverage if we did not. You know? SM (01:57:52): Mm-hmm. SW (01:57:53): And I think that there also, I was a radical [inaudible]. There were other tendencies to this feminism. And so you had NOW, which was liberal feminists and that was based more on the-the male model of leadership is power down. So you could come up with women who were presidents of NOW and women who were... Gloria Steinem, to me, has become a leader because... I do not even want to say leader. Nobody follows Gloria Steinem. Nobody follows anybody. But I think where Gloria Steinem has become a really important symbol of the movement, and representation of the same power of the movement, and the continuing growth of thought, she wins out. " I shall not [inaudible] in the age." SM (01:59:05): What- SW (01:59:05): She is the poster child for that. And she is willing, she is so adept at, you listen to anything she says, or you read anything that she says, and if she gets credited, she always says, "I was part of a movement." SM (01:59:23): Huh. SW (01:59:25): "I did not do this. I was part of a movement." SM (01:59:25): What- SW (01:59:26): So she never let the media- [inaudible] SM (01:59:32): What do you and what do members of the movement think about people like Phyllis Schlafly, and Anita Bryant, and female leaders, who may not support, conservative leaders support the movement? SW (01:59:50): I think every movement has people who do not identify with their class. I think Mark called it false conscious. You know. SM (02:00:06): Mm-hmm. SW (02:00:08): [inaudible] part. You do not expect that everybody's going be part of what you are fighting for. I think it was Lucretia Mott who said, "The death of the slave is exemplified by how strong he holds on chains." I am paraphrasing, but there is something to that effect- that it is an indication of the degree to which we are oppressed that we embrace our oppression. And there are also women who exploit their anti-ness in this culture because the media is always looking for, "Let us look at the other side." Even when there is not another side, they create one. So they interview a feminist that, "My God, we got to have an anti-feminist, here, and a really good woman. Or we got to have a Black who's opposed to Black rights." You know? SM (02:01:09): Mm-hmm. SW (02:01:13): [inaudible] will not it? And so they create artificially, these people who nobody in the movement would pay attention to that the media has all of a sudden created them up to be a big giant. What do I think of them? I think it is absolutely to be expected that there will be. There will always be some men who are stronger advocates of women's rights than some women. There will always be some white people who will be stronger advocates of, you know- SM (02:01:56): Mm-hmm. One of the things, Johnetta Cole, with- [inaudible] SW (02:01:59): ...the- SM (02:02:03): Johnetta Cole used to be the president of Spelman College. She wrote a great book. And she talked about some of the sensitivities within the African American female community with respect to being identified with the women's movement because they were identified with the civil rights movement. So she brought up, they wanted to be involved in the movement, but they needed to be more identified with the civil rights movement. And- SW (02:02:34): [inaudible] That was a piece of an issue. And I think that that also was one that the media picked up. All that stuff is really so superficial that I think the focus on that stuff is really to not understand what the [inaudible] was about. That is really [inaudible] communication in the (19)60s. You know, that is not what it felt like to being inside it. SM (02:02:58): Mm-hmm. SW (02:03:01): There was always dialogue, there was a racism, of course there was racism. The culture was rampant with racists all of a sudden, because we were involved in the liberation of women. Did that mean that we checked our racism at the door? I do not think so. There was classism. There was sexism in the African American movement. But being involved in the movement, we were working with that. It was in process, it was in dialogue. It was not status. But when it got to be looked at through the static lens of the media, which did not understand what was going on, that this was a process. It was like, "Okay, I am going to take this still photo of this and I am going to freeze this event in time to say, 'This is what is going on.'" And it did not characterize what was going on. SM (02:04:03): Two- SW (02:04:03): There was a constant looking at racism, looking at sexism, looking at classism, looking at homophobia, looking at ageism, looking at ableism. One thing would lead to another, would lead to drawing awareness of one thing in another. You know, in the last interview I told you how that happened with my daughter- SM (02:04:25): Mm-hmm. SW (02:04:26): ...with my daughter and then my son was children's liberation. That was part of the strength of the movement, was that we were all dealing with these issues. And yeah, people wrote about it when we were in process. But I think to take those writings that were happening in process where we said, "This is what the problem is, we got to deal with it, is to ignore the dealing with it." SM (02:05:00): Two things here, reaction to two different areas. The burning of the bras, why did that take place? And did it have a positive effect? And secondly is Playboy magazine, which is Hugh Hefner and the sexual revolution. And I know that it is a very sensitive issue on college campuses today, women's bodies and a lot of them do not like Hugh Hefner, and what he stood for, and everything. Just your thoughts on the women's movement, how they looked at Hugh Hefner in that Playboy movement, and then whole, maybe it was just the media with a burning bras, but just those two things. SW (02:05:38): Well, the bra burning, as you know, it never happened. And [inaudible] been, it is done to death, but it never happened. And yet the question keeps coming up. And it is like, "Ho-hum. Come on, ask me something important." But the effect of it was that was very important. It became a way of trivializing the movement. It became a way to not have to deal with it seriously. "They are just a bunch of bra burners." Same thing happened in the 19th century with a bunch of [inaudible] wear." Well, the burning of the objects at the Miss America pageant, which they actually did throw in makeup and whatever. That was a symbolic destruction, a symbol of our [inaudible]. It was, "We are not just sexual objects." And I think that was the whole, Hefner is soft porn. It was the objectification with the violence turned down. Larry Flynt, was not that his name? SM (02:06:58): Yes. SW (02:07:04): The one who did the woman upside down in the meat grinder. Now, he was pornography with the violence turned up loud. And the violence is there, the objectification is there. What it does is its training manual for young males and perpetually adolescent adult males who connect power and sex, and the connection of power and sex to the culture is very strong. And pornography is the training manual for it, the indoctrination. If the women are commodities to be consumed, and, "I have the power to either violently or with just mild power." You know. SM (02:07:59): Mm-hmm. Another question, the Women's Vietnam Memorial was built in 1993. Actually, it was- SM (02:08:03): ...memorial was built in 1993. Actually it was opened up in 1993. I am sure you know, everything Diane Carlson had to go through and how she was treated on the hill for even thinking of doing this. And the prejudice, even in the Vietnam veteran community in the very beginning was a big roadblock. They seem to forget that now, everything's hunky-dory, but I know what she had to go through. Were the women's movement working at all with a lot of the female veterans of the Vietnam War when this memorial was being built for the idea? Is there a linkage there? SW (02:08:35): I do not know about that. SM (02:08:40): Okay, because I know that... SW (02:08:44): [inaudible] I mean, you are talking about a movement that is so diverse and that is so decentralized now and that is operating in so many different fronts. There is so many different areas. There is no way any single person can have the knowledge of everything that is going on in the United States. I think that is the strength of it. SM (02:09:04): Sally, what reading... why did the ERA fail? I remember my boss was Betty Menson at Ohio University on Lancashire campus. She was one of the leaders in the state of Ohio and trying to get this passed. And I can remember sitting in my office, I think it was 1973, and the vote was taking place in Ohio at that time, see if it would be passed. And it did not pass in Ohio. And boy, she was very disappointed. But why did the ERA fail and why was there so much resistance to it? SW (02:09:38): The same reason it failed last time through it. It is still on the table. And, with a Democratic majority and Obama's president, we may still join the civilized world and have equal rights to have been protected in the time too, before I die. But the reason that it failed when it went almost to the edge, was the same reason that we are really at risk of not passing a healthcare bill, right now. The insurance company. The insurance company put tremendous amounts of money behind the care, because it is not in the interest of corporations and insurance companies for women to have equal rights. If you can bill women and men in different ways for insurance, your benefit, if you can make more money off women and off their labor. I mean, if you had to suddenly pay women equal with men in this country, look what that is going to do to corporation? If you lose that 25 cents in profit, but you are getting off every woman's dollars. You know, for every man you pay a dollar, pay the woman 78 cents. Who was keeping that profit? [inaudible] And so, it was a well... and that has been well documented. It was a well-orchestrated, well financed, that they hired some token right wing women, Phyllis Schlafly before she became the poster child for Anti-ERA. My God, you are going to have go to the bathroom in the same bathroom. The world's western civilization will crumble as women and men are in the same bathroom. Well, guess what? We are in the bathroom a lot on airplanes and number of other places and the world seems to still be operating. But, it was those incredibly stupid things that were the arguments against it. But Phyllis Schlafly was a spokesperson for... She was a well-recognized right-winged [inaudible] before she became the paid gun of the corporate [inaudible] Still post-ERA. SM (02:12:21): What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? SW (02:12:27): I went there once and I was moved. I am much more moved by the movie the Winter Soldier Investigates. SM (02:12:42): And why is that? SW (02:12:44): I mean, the Vietnam Memorial is like a senseless death. I mean, okay, here is a death count and here is the names of all those men who died unnecessarily. That is what I see when I go there. SM (02:13:09): What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? SW (02:13:17): It was when the government brought the war home against its gun. SM (02:13:24): What does Watergate mean to you? SW (02:13:35): The truth. SM (02:13:36): What...? SW (02:13:36): You will know the truth and the truth will set you free. In this case it was [inaudible] Richard Nixon. SM (02:13:43): What does Woodstock in the Summer of Love mean to you? SW (02:13:48): The Summer of Love means commercialization of something that was much deeper than that characterization of it. Woodstock is the place that the [inaudible] went through. SM (02:14:10): The what went through? SW (02:14:13): The [inaudible] on the East Coast. SM (02:14:14): Oh, okay. SW (02:14:14): It just became legendary to most of us on the West Coast. SM (02:14:20): Yeah, there were 400,000 people there, but if you talk to everybody, there might have been 10 million. What does 1968 mean to you? SW (02:14:37): (19)68 is the Worldwide Revolution State, for me. It means Rudy the Red in Germany. It means Danny the Red in France. It means the moment when we really believed that we could turn the world around, in a brief period of time. SM (02:15:02): What does counterculture mean to you? SW (02:15:06): A label that somebody attached at a later date. SM (02:15:11): What do the hippies and yippies mean to you? SW (02:15:15): The yippies! I love that one. Put the yip back and hippy. The hippie again, I mean, once the term was created, the movement was in decline and almost dead. SM (02:15:34): How about the Students for Democratic Society and the Weathermen? SW (02:15:47): SDS was... boy, you know what comes to my mind? What was the support hearing statement? What was that even called? Was not that the first? SM (02:15:58): Yes. SW (02:15:59): And it is like reading, okay, here is our manifesto, here is... here is truth. And SDS became legendary, it was much more on the East Coast, early on. And then the split with the Progressive Labor Party - the PLP, and just if you vote. And then the Weatherman. Is it time for an armed revolution? The folks from mild arm struggle is the highest form of struggle. And the arguments over, does that mean it is the most important? Does that mean it is the last-ditch effort when nothing else makes... when all else fails? That is what you have to go through. That means Bob Dylan and Subterranean Homesick Blues, which was our national anthem. "You do not need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows." It is the movement growing out of the lyrics of the troubadour of our generation. It means that because of people that died were principled. And it also means to me, personally, watching males pull guns just like the males that were, I do not know, being indoctrinated to carry guns as a symbol of man hooding Weatherman carrying guns, a symbol of manhood. And women trying to be as tough as the boys. Especially, it means to me being told by a weather woman, a weatherman, woman. If you are to be a true revolutionary, you have to be prepared to give up the kids. SM (02:18:40): Well, how would you talk about black power and the Black Panthers? SW (02:18:46): The Black Panthers, what comes to mind immediately is the government's systematic execution of them. SM (02:18:58): Yeah, what were your thoughts on... There is actually seven that really... SW (02:19:01): [inaudible] What? SM (02:19:01): There is actually seven that really stick out here. Of course, Bobby Seal, Huey Newton, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, H Wrapped Brown, Stokely Carmichael and Fred Norman. Those are the ones that are known all over the world. SW (02:19:24): But the blunt... but in Oakland, they were feeding the people. They were really enhancing the lives of people. And I think that the media created leaders, and to some extent they were leaders of the movement. I think to concentrate on their activities, is [inaudible] what the Black Panthers were doing in the community. And they were feeding the people first and foremost. They were taking care of the needs of the people. SM (02:20:10): The other one here is the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. SW (02:20:14): Yeah, VVAW. My vision, my dream was that there would be a political coalition between VVAW and the Women's State. And we did that in Sacramento, we worked together really closely and did a lot of stuff together. That was a powerful, powerful coalition. SM (02:20:33): They took over when SDS was failing. They kind of rubbed up the anti-war movement. And the last one word here is enemy's list. When you hear about that enemy's list. SW (02:20:47): Yeah, that does not conjure up anymore [inaudible] enemies. SM (02:20:57): That was the Richard Nixon's enemies list. SW (02:21:00): Oh, okay. And that is important. That is indicative of how it was sort of like Richard Nixon is the President of the United States. Richard Nixon is a corrupt man who I do not recognize as a lead...as my leader. It was like, Richard Nixon's going to go off and do whatever he is going to do. I am going to be part of a movement to stop before I could be part of the movement to turn this country around. And so, it is not focusing on Richard Nixon. I was focusing on the work I was doing in that. But we were... SM (02:21:46): You, you have made comments on Richard Nixon and I was going to ask what you thought of him. Now I am just going to mention some names. This is toward the end of the interview here. You have men made comments on Richard Nixon. What about Spiro Agnew? SW (02:22:00): Oh man. They were just so indicative of everything that was wrong with the country. SM (02:22:14): And what were they indicative of? SW (02:22:22): Of power that was not used for the good of the people. Of corruption that was just a given and a normal part of daily life. Of a level of lying that was standard procedure. SM (02:22:46): Okay. Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the yippes. SW (02:22:50): Yeah, they were funny guys. I liked it when they threw dollar bills at the on the floor at, what is it? Wall Street? SM (02:23:05): Yep. Dollar bills. And of course Jerry Rubin, remember the story in his book 'Do It!', when he went into a bank and wanted to use a restroom. Do you remember that story? SW (02:23:17): I do not. SM (02:23:19): Well, I will mention it here. In his book, 'Do It!', he went into the... you know how he always looked with a bandana and the beard and everything. And he went into a bank and they might have been having a rally someplace, but he had to go to the bathroom and he went in and the policeman said, "you have to leave." "Well" he says, "I got to use the restroom." And he says, "No, we are not going to allow you to use the restroom." So he put his pants down and did a dump right in the middle of the bank. Unbelievable. How about Timothy Leary? SW (02:23:56): The opening of consciousness. SM (02:24:00): Eugene McCarthy? SW (02:24:03): Liberal. SM (02:24:05): George McGovern? SW (02:24:08): Liberal. But with more integrity. SM (02:24:15): How about John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy? SW (02:24:25): You know, that was a different time. That was an earlier time. That was the time when, for me it was the horrible time. SM (02:24:44): How about Lyndon Johnson? SW (02:24:48): Hey-hey, LBJ how many babies did you kill today? SM (02:24:52): Hmm. How about Hubert Humphrey? SW (02:24:57): Bah. That is my response. SM (02:25:03): Okay. Robert McNamara? SW (02:25:08): McNamara, watching that movie of him coming to grip to some extent with his behavior during that time. You know the movie I am talking about? SM (02:25:21): Yes. SW (02:25:21): About a couple of years ago? Yeah, That was dangerous. SM (02:25:27): George Wallace? SW (02:25:30): George Wallace, the poster child for Southern rights. SM (02:25:37): Ronald Reagan? SW (02:25:45): A man who had Alzheimer's when he was President of the United States and nobody pulled him out. SM (02:25:55): How about Gerald Ford? SW (02:25:59): He could not walk and chew gum at the same time. SM (02:26:01): Jimmy Carter? SW (02:26:20): A man whose integrity has grown geometrically in my eyes, and I think he is since he was President. SM (02:26:21): Dwight Eisenhower? SW (02:26:25): A guy who we quoted about the Military Industrial Complex. And maybe it was still possible to be a Republican with integrity before Nixon. SM (02:26:48): How about Benjamin Spock? SW (02:26:55): Well, he had a hell of an impact on [inaudible] and not all of it good, but a lot of it good. SM (02:27:06): Daniel Ellsberg? SW (02:27:11): Truth teller. SM (02:27:14): Daniel and Phillip Berrigan? SW (02:27:19): I think the reason I do not hold the entire Catholic Church in contempt. Examples of how even in an obsolete and corrupt institution, there can be [inaudible] integrity and goodness. And that would be true, the whole Dorothy Day of which they were part in arm. SM (02:27:53): Barry Gold... SW (02:28:06): The guy who cut my hair now in Syracuse is a product of that world in friends [inaudible] but still does not work in our area. SM (02:28:08): Barry Goldwater? SW (02:28:17): If you think Goldwater, I may be liberal, but to a degree I think everybody should be free. But if you think I am going to let Barry Goldwater move in next door and marry my daughter, I would not do it for all the tea in Cuba. SM (02:28:30): How about John Dean? SW (02:28:40): Well... what do you say about being able to live through a [inaudible] The crooks get caught and the crooks are held accountable, and the crooks are in the highest office [inaudible] It was a vindication. SM (02:29:13): William Buckley? SW (02:29:21): A smart conservative. SM (02:29:26): Okay. George Bush Sr? SW (02:29:27): Yes. And arrogant. Who? SM (02:29:32): George Bush Sr? Who said the Vietnam syndrome is over, took us to the Gulf War. SW (02:29:40): Hey you know, it is just more of the same. I think that at some point it starts looking like is the Principle President and oxymoron? Is there something inherent about the land between the office and the political processes embedded in a for-profit world, where it is impossible to have all these communications. Because it just becomes another farce. SM (02:30:26): How about, lastly here, George Bush and Bill Clinton, because they are the only two Boomer presidents. Do they define the Boomer generation by their actions, even though they are both... SW (02:30:39): They define what I just was talking about. The impossibility of principle politics in a for-profit system. SM (02:30:52): How about, and again, even though... SW (02:30:54): The accident of their time of birth does not have a whole hell of a lot to do with their behavior. SM (02:31:02): Gloria Steinem? SW (02:31:05): I think I have talked about her. SM (02:31:08): Okay. Bella Abzug? SW (02:31:10): Yeah, she is another person that got a lot of spotlight and was doing good work along with thousands and millions of other ones. SM (02:31:21): Betty Friedan? SW (02:31:22): Same thing. SM (02:31:24): And Shirley Chisholm? SW (02:31:26): She opened the door...Betty Friedan opened the door with her book, to a lot of reflection. And the book was important. SM (02:31:41): When the best books are written about the legacy of the Boomer generation. It could be... it is usually 50 years after an event or a period and we are approaching that, but particularly after Boomers have passed away, what do you think historians and sociologists will be saying about this Boomer generation when they are writing it in books for future generations? SW (02:32:08): I think it depends on how many voices from that time period they witness and the variety of voices that they witness. That will depend... that will be how good their history is. SM (02:32:25): All right, I am looking and see if I have anything else here. I do not think I do. Is there any questions I did not ask that you felt I should have asked? SW (02:32:35): I cannot think of any. SM (02:32:37): I think I have covered about everything. I wrote a whole extra set of questions here. I know one person who... A critic of the women's movement wanted me to ask a question, I have not really been asking it, but I will... Why have the women's movement not made more criticism of Muslims for how they treat women, instead of trying to defend their rights constantly here in the United States? SW (02:33:08): I think there has been a lot of criticism of the behavior and the criticism makes me a little observant, because we are criticizing a religious tradition where women had property rights 500 years before they had them under Christianity. And it is also an easy target to point to another culture and say, "that religious exploits women." "That religious is bad." When I think, the absence of looking at the effects of Christianity in our own culture, might be a more productive use of our time. SM (02:33:55): And my very last question is something that you have heard before and it is just a general comment that I have heard for a long time, is when women take over leadership roles, they will take on the same qualities of men and they will start getting sicker earlier. They will die of the same illnesses. It is just part of the nature of the human species. When you hear that, what do you say? SW (02:34:25): I think that is not got anything to do with the human species. I heard clueless about what the human species is. If we generalize from our particular society at this particular moment in history, I think that the goal of the revolution in its largest, broadest form of this social, cultural, economic, political, spiritual revolution is to do away with power-over, and to establish a system of power-with. And that means leadership takes on a very different form. And that price that you are talking about, the level of stress is the function of a system of power-over, is the price that the oppressor pays. Will women move into that? Yes they will, black. Yes they will. Will gay and lesbians? Yes they will. There are people that will move into that and are moving into, and we will see that as progress. I think a deeper progress is a real transformation of human relationship is when we end the system of power-over. End the price that both the oppressed and the oppressor pay in that system. The leader and the lead, if you will. To end that we move to a system of power-with. And then those stress things fall away, work with people. It is a very good model. SM (02:36:24): But you finally, my last, I have said this twice already, but this thing about the Women's Movement, as particularly when Boomers were young, the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, right through to today, the role that the women's movement has played in linking up with the GLBT movement, the Chicano movement, Native American movement, the Anti-War, Civil Rights, Environmental Movement, Disability Rights, ageism, and even mental health issues now, which is a big issue with women. Because there is a lot of movements. David Oaks, I do not know if you have ever heard of David, you ought to link up with him. He is really leading the mental health issue. He was a former student in Harvard, he is out in Oregon. Just your thoughts on how the Women's Movement has worked with these groups over the last 40 years. General thoughts. SW (02:37:18): Well, I think it is not just the Women's Movement. I think that of the linking of the struggles, that is what I was talking about earlier. The interplay. That we all needed to deal with each other's issues if we were to work together. And I think that has been one of the real strengths of this movement in its largest sense. And it is an imperfect thing, it is one that he keeps raising contradictions, but out of those contradictions comes transformation. SM (02:37:57): Very good. Well that is my. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Sally Roesch Wagner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wagner, Sally Roesch ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors, American; Lecturers; Civil rights workers; Women's rights; Women's studies; Wagner, Sally Roesch--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Sally Roesch Wagner is an author, lecturer, and activist. She was a founder of one of the country’s first Women’s Studies programs and one of the first women to receive a Doctorate in the United States for work in Women’s Studies. Wagner received her Bachelor's degree and her Master's degree in Psychology from the California State University in Sacramento. She also received her Ph.D. in History of Consciousness (Women’s Studies) from the University of California in Santa Cruz. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.169a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.169b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 158:01 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3d78660e106c158e4677b1335904c681.mp3 a1c66cda7c27cb68c746094311a883d8 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/c3fec555f5ee8721334015f122f43b07.jpeg ceb7ee983e3d97f9e7de2dee15cb7031 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-11-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jesse Masyr Year of Graduation 1971 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Partner at Fox Rothschild in New York. He specializes in real estate law and is responsible for bringing legislation that permitted sidewalk cafes to Manhattan. Prior to joining the firm, Jesse was the founder of the Land Use Department and a named partner in the law firm of Wachtel Masyr & Missry LLP. He also previously served as Deputy Borough President of Manhattan, where for five years he represented the Borough President on the Board of Estimate. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Jesse Masyr Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 16 November 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) JM: 00:03 My name is Jesse Masyr. We are currently in my law firm in midtown Manhattan at 101 Park Avenue, and apparently, we are going to attempt to extract, well, the memories I have left. IG: 00:20 Very good. And so, you graduated- JM: 00:24 I graduated in 1971, and I enrolled in 1967 so I was in the four-year program. IG: 00:34 So, tell us a little bit about your growing up. So where did you grow up? JM: 00:41 I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. I was born in Brooklyn. I grew up in Brooklyn, and it was actually my intention to be educated in Brooklyn, but my parents felt strongly otherwise, and that is how I sort of wind up at Harpur College. Was not my desire. I really wanted to go to school in New York City at the time. To me, everybody I knew was going either to Brooklyn College or to Queens College and but my parents felt that my parents are first generation Americans, and they were sort of very liberal, but they were but they had come about, and the McCarthy era had really scarred them in a sense that they thought my radicalization at that time would somehow go on my permanent record, and I would, I was, I was involved in 1965 particularly with something called the New York City's high school Students for peace. And they thought that that would put an anvil around me. So, my father said to me, "No, you are not going to school in New York." And so that is that is why, to me, SUNY was an inferior brand to CUNY, and not knowing anything about SUNY, had helped out to make that judgment, by the way, and that that is how I wind up in Binghamton, because I did not want to go there. IG: 02:05 So, there was an element of fear ruling your- JM: 02:10 Yeah, my parents, my parents really felt that, you know that it would be go on my record, and at some time later on, when I was looking to join the professional ranks of the world, somebody will remember the hardest it is to imagine that in 1965 I was part of a number of peace demonstrations and walk outs and demonstrations against the Marines, all kinds of embarrassing things that I did as a youth. IG: 02:35 Where did you go to high school? JM: 02:39 Lafayette High School, which does not exist anymore. They closed it because it was, it was a substandard school when I went to it, and it got worse as the years went on. IG: 02:55 What were your-your parent’s expectations? JM: 02:59 Very simple. The you-you had you had a choice. Growing up in my family, you could become a doctor or a lawyer, and I failed at becoming a doctor, and therefore I defaulted in becoming a lawyer. My brother was successful. IG: 03:14 He is a doctor. JM: 03:16 Well, I do not think so. He is an oral surgeon, so they never counted to me, but, but he did go to Columbia Physicians and Surgeons for his dental degree. So that was winning. The odd thing is, my brother's five years older than I am, and he was still living at home, going to at that time, he was actually going to pharmacy school before he went to dental school, it was okay for him to go to school in New York because he was never political. Had no interest in anything of that nature, and so I did, and my parents said, you are out. So, it was weird that my brother was still there. But I have often said "My brother was an only child." IG: 03:52 [laughs] So they-they had the idea of Harpur College or? JM: 04:02 No, they- IG: 04:03 How did you come upon? JM: 04:04 Well, because my parents, I was in a lower middle-class family, so I was not going to be able to go to a private school. And so, the other thing to me was, was just state school, and I did all the research myself. So, it to me, it was the choices, not doing a lot of research, was either I was going to go to either Stony Brook, Albany or Binghamton. Buffalo, I never would have considered because it is in another country, as far as I could tell, and I did not want to go to Stony Brook. It was Long Island, and I had enough experience with kids from Long Island not realizing they were all going to Harpur. When I got to Harpur, I had complete culture shock, because I thought Binghamton, I would be meeting people, basically, who were more intimate with cows than anything else. And then I realized it was a New York City Long Island School. IG: 04:05 Yes. JM: 04:07 Although nobody from my high school went there, but virtually no one from my high school went to college. So, it was not the real issue. IG: 05:08 So, what was the reputation? You really did not have too much to go on if you thought it was a cow school. JM: 05:15 Yeah, I thought it was a cow school. I really did. IG: 05:17 So-so when you arrived. And so did you have an idea that you would want to be a lawyer when you- JM: 05:24 No-no, I know- no, because there really was not- the lawyer was sort of the failure. You were going to be a doctor because I was Jewish and that there was no other alternative, you know, that, or a rabbi. And I had gotten that. That had passed when I was 13. I did not do that anymore, and so I took two years of science. I was a science major my first two years, and by the end of my second year, I think I was on academic suspension or threatening suspension. I was I was a failure in science. I was complete, and I changed majors and graduated with a history degree and a GPA low well enough to get me into law school. I basically aced the last two years, but the last two years, it is interesting that you mentioned, it is 1970 1971 and there was a lot of disruption in the school at that point. 1970 in the spring semester, is Kent State. And the school shut down. And then in 19- in my senior year, I was involved in something called the college volunteer program to combat drug abuse, and was a founder of something I do not know if it still exists at Binghamton, called High Hopes, which was which was a drug. It was a crash pad, as far as I can tell. But at that in 1970 before he went totally [inaudible] crazy, Nelson Rockefeller was going to cure everybody before he decided in 1971 to put everybody in jail forever. And so, he funded something called the college volunteer program to combat drug abuse, and funded each of the universities, and I became one of the initial directors and founders, of which we named High Hope sarcastically, and set up the drug clinic, and then spent my life that my senior year, going around Broome County talking about the evils of drugs, which was about as ironic and sarcastic. IG: 07:33 So, what was this program? What did it promote? Was it abstinence? JM: 07:39 No-no-no, we drugs were still good then. IG: 07:44 Yeah. JM: 07:44 I mean, and it was really about people having bad LSD trips. IG: 07:50 Right. JM: 07:50 And so, we were behind. I do not even know if these structures, I have been back to school. Four years ago, there was a post office building near Student Center, and the back of that was given to us as basically a place where people were having a problem with the drugs, they took that we could sort of walk them through that and calm them down. IG: 08:13 So, you, but you, it was not like a methadone [crosstalk] JM: 08:16 No-no-no-no. We did not. We did not. That was not really- IG: 08:20 Medicinal. JM: 08:21 -a real problem that was, you know, in 1970 it was more about people taking Angel Dust and people taking LSD and then going, it was hard to get mushrooms, very hard. We could talk about that. It was always rumored that somebody had them. But it never was. They always had LSD, because it was very available, because the it was a real, able source near Binghamton for LSD, which was Cornell. Cornell graduate chemistry students were in the manufacturing business in the (19)70s, (19)60s and (19)70s. IG: 08:59 I am awestruck. That is related. JM: 09:05 That is why I made the reference to you better [crosstalk] yes. IG: 09:08 So- JM: 09:11 That is why there is such a great, famous, Grateful Dead concert that occurs- JM: 09:15 Yes JM: 09:16 -at Binghamton at that point. JM: 09:17 Yeah- IG: 09:17 In in 1968 or- IG: 09:17 Yeah, 1960 JM: 09:22 No. IG: 09:22 No? JM: 09:23 No. It was later. It was later. The famous Dick's picks concert, I think, is (19)70. IG: 09:30 I see. So, what was the apart from, you know, this kind of, I do not know. What was it, an anti-drug, drug culture, what were some of the topics of conversation among your friends and yourself? What-what did you I mean, apart from- JM: 09:57 Well, I mean- IG: 09:58 -the usual, you know, dating, what- JM: 10:00 Well- IG: 10:00 What are the political sort of you know- JM: 10:03 There was that huge cloud hanging over all of us, because all of us were now living under the yoke of that that our student deferments from the draft would expire upon graduation and going to graduate school, with the exception of going to medical school, you would lose your exemption. And so, the Vietnam War was hung over most of discussions, because it was not, it was not popular, as they make the hope that does not come as too much of a surprise. And so, remember this Kent State, so I was very political at the time. I do not think the school was very political. IG: 10:46 Really? JM: 10:47 I did not sense that. I mean, there were a lot of people there who were what I would call straight and were not involved in that, were not involved in the drug culture not involved in the anti-war movement at all. Kent State, I thought was-was surprising that galvanized the students to strike, although, if history, if I remember, by the time the students decided to strike, the faculty had already shut the school in protest. So, the faculty was probably more radical than the student body was. IG: 11:24 What you know- JM: 11:28 And (19)68 remember also is the year that a lot of us went and worked for Gene McCarthy. IG: 11:34 I did not know that. JM: 11:35 Yes, and it was to my parents love and joy. I actually cut off my hair in the famous go clean for Gene movement. IG: 11:47 That must have pleased them. JM: 11:49 Momentarily. IG: 11:50 Momentarily. How did you, I mean, how did you, you know, find that opportunity to work for Gene McCarthy? Is that something that I mean, you just said New Yorker, you probably- JM: 11:56 No-no. It was somebody on campus who was, who I remember, I think, who I know is no longer alive, who was politically active and much more attuned to being anti-war, and it was really an anti-Lyndon Johnson sentiment more than anything else, and enlisted a lot of us as volunteers to go work for Gene McCarthy. And I do remember the great celebration the night that Lyndon Johnson announced he was not running for reelection. It was an instant partner. IG: 12:40 Right. So, I mean, what was your platform? I mean, what was a platform that you supported essentially anti-war and- JM: 12:49 Not sending me to Vietnam? was my platform. I mean, I was, it was one of complete self-interest. IG: 12:57 But do you think that there was sort of, you know, pervasive era of anxiety that many of the male students experienced. JM: 13:09 I think there was, for a lot of reasons, there was anxiety. I think there was a feeling that the youth, our youth, was seen as threatening to social structure, that lot of people saw us as an enemy, in essence, disrespectful, disruptive. And I do remember—it is funny what memories you have, and maybe they get manufactured. But I do remember when-when Kent State occurred walking through the Student Center, and the song that was blasting over and over and over again was Jefferson airplanes, Volunteers of America, and we are all outlaws in the eyes of America. And I think that was a feeling that a lot of us, I certainly had, that feeling that we were seen as disrupting the social fabric that our parents and had sort of instructed us to obey, and we were being disobedient, and the rallies and the anti-war movement, the demonstration in Washington against the Pentagon. I mean, I think those were seen as us versus them kind of events. IG: 14:35 So it was, you know, a rebellion against your parents, you know ideals or value expectations. JM: 14:45 Not so much their ideals, but their but their social structure, their standards. This is how you behave, and you do not stick your head up that much above the fence post, because you make it slap down. IG: 14:58 That is. Very much an immigrant mentality. JM: 15:02 No, I understand you remember, they are first generation, and they are from, they are Jewish, and everybody who did not come over got exterminated. And so, there is sort of that I understood that growing up, and I grew up in a hard to believe in Orthodox Jewish community, and I did not. I really perceived that being Jewish began with the Holocaust. There was no history before the Holocaust. That is all I heard about; all I was taught about it. It permeated everything, including expectations of what your future could be. IG: 15:40 Right, and that and that, you know, that probably felt at some point as a burden as well. JM: 15:48 No question about it. IG: 15:49 Um, so you know what was the new order that you were hoping to bring about? JM: 15:58 You are giving us way more credit than we would ever have deserved. I do not think there was that I least could not articulate at that time, and I do not remember anybody articulating to me an alternative solution, other than Lyndon Johnson should not be president. I do not think there was I certainly as I evolved later on. But I do not think there was an anti-Nixon feeling before. It was just got Lyndon Johnson out of office. He was killing us. He was doing this war that was just taking us away and slaughtering us. IG: 16:35 So, you just wanted to be kind of unshackled from these figures and from your parental, you know, expectations, but you did not really, I mean, you did not sort of, you know, see what a future would be like. JM: 16:56 Certainly, was not that skilled or motivated, [crosstalk] to have those expectations, I mean. And frankly, the last thing, if I was given a list of things to check off, the last thing I would have been able to check off that I was going to be a lawyer really caught me by surprise. IG: 17:18 Before we talk about that. Who were some of the faculty that made an impression on you? Was there anybody who really stood out in your memory and then kind of determined you to- JM: 17:37 I cannot say that. I do call one history professor that I thought was one of the most brilliant people I had ever met. His name, his name was Africa [Thomas W. Africa]. He was an ancient history professor. But that is really do not have much more recollection than that. IG: 17:57 So, you do not, you know, you do not remember that your academics kind of really opened your eyes to seeing the world in a different way. JM: 18:06 No. [crosstalk] It was purely the social I grew up in, this sort of Brooklyn essence came up there and was extremely liberated, because I was first time, I did not have parental control, and I was with other people who similarly felt that way. And so, it was clearly the socialization that that molded changed me more than the academics. No, plus the fact I was not really particularly great at academics or science, for sure. IG: 18:41 But you became great at academics. JM: 18:44 I became great at succeeding at academics. IG: 18:47 I see. JM: 18:47 I think, I think there is a difference. IG: 18:50 There is a difference, there is a difference. There is a difference. But so, have you kept in touch with any of your fellow students? JM: 19:03 Only by coincidence. IG: 19:04 By coincidence. JM: 19:05 Yeah, that we sort of met later on, did not keep did not keep continual touch, and then somehow, professionally or socially, “You went to Harpur?" "Yes-yes, yeah." Do not even remember them and being at Harpur at the time I was at Harpur. They were not in the social scene I was in. So, I do have friends that are from Harpur in the same time I was there, but they were not friends of mine when I was at Harpur. And those people that I am was friendly with, unfortunately, are not alive. I was very friendly, extremely friendly with a guy who-who unfortunately has the same answer, the same ending, to the people I was to the people I was closest to. Both died from drug related deaths. One, his name was Rick Juan, who unfortunately made the Today Show, because right after graduation, literally right after graduation, he got on a plane, went to Amsterdam, and within 24 hours, had died of an overdose of heroin. And then the other was. The name was Alan Goldstein, who became a doctor, a surgeon, but had a lifelong addiction problem, and ultimately died of liver disease that was created by his lifelong drug addiction. And he had he was a drug addict while he was a doctor, which shows you how brilliant he must have been. IG: 20:39 No, well, I mean, it is an addiction. It is a disease. JM: 20:43 Then he had had a terrible car accident one night after leaving the hospital, because he was drugged up and got-got really badly hurt. And I think that ultimately was the cause, the predicate cause, of his death. So, the two people I were closest to no longer alive. IG: 21:04 Do you think the drug use back then was different than you know, people knew less probably about addiction? JM: 21:20 I think, I think I had a pretty I think I had a pretty good- IG: 21:23 No? JM: 21:24 No. I think I had a pretty good idea of the level of drugs that were being used at the time I was going to school, and I do not recall the heavy, dangerous drugs being used. There was a lot of not marijuana, believe it or not, there was a lot of hash. I never really understood that, but it was a hash school, and there was a lot of hallucinogenic. There- people were not going around with lots of barbiturates or heroin. There always is heroin, but it was not prevalent. And to the extent that there were amphetamines, they were more obviously, more valuable around finals than at any other time. IG: 22:16 I assume that they are still JM: 22:18 And-and people those days remember, amphetamines where-where you could get them legally. So, everyone was stealing their mother's extra drill and, you know, bringing it up to school. But I did not perceive drugs at that time to be there were- no opiates were not prevalent. There was the beginning of the synthetic drugs that were coming on the-the Angel Dust, the MDA, which was fucking people up quite-quite much, but it was just beginning. It was not as prevalent. IG: 22:55 when you know, did people talk about Timothy Leary, yeah. Were you interested in that kind of mind, expensiveness-? JM: 23:05 Very-very much- IG: 23:07 -experience. JM: 23:08 Very much so in 1969. No, the summer of 1970--Alan and Rick and myself went cross country to go out to San Francisco, to track down Owsley, who was the great manufacturer of LSD out in San Francisco. So, yeah, it was something I was, I was interested in. I was, by nature, though, too much of a chicken to ever develop a drug problem, IG: 23:41 Right-right-right. Well, you know, that is, that is very interesting. So, you know, but you, you were not a hippie, and because you aspired to this very kind of establishment, and uh- JM: 24:00 I think I would have wanted to be, yeah, but I could not, because of the, you know, from the time I was five years old, yeah, there was either become a professional or-or you would have to be somehow, put on a boat, set a fire. IG: 24:14 Exactly. JM: 24:16 Yeah. So yeah, I would have loved to be hippie. IG: 24:18 Yeah. You would have loved to yeah too, yeah, because you did not drop out, you just kind of dabbled. JM: 24:24 Yeah. IG: 24:24 Yeah, it was- JM: 24:25 Yeah. IG: 24:26 -dabbled. So how do you think your classmates would remember you from that from the years at Harpur College? JM: 24:39 Annoying. IG: 24:41 How so? JM: 24:47 I just-just use my general reaction. I think I was a little bit pushy, perhaps manipulative. You know, I mean, I manipulated myself into this directorship of this drug clinic as a means. The real reason I became director of drug clinic is it gave me an opportunity to come back to school in August. And at that point, staying at home in my house was intolerable. It was literally intolerable. My parents took one look at me. You know, my hair, which fortunately I had then, as opposed to this thing. But then it grew this way. It did not go that way. I mean, I never got it to be long, but it would go out and out and out, and so that would just drive them crazy. And from an early age, I from the time I was 13 years old, I was living in Greenwich Village. The music had caught me. The folk music era of that time had captured me. IG: 25:48 Where did you listen to? Where did you go? JM: 25:52 I went to you had delicate balance in the village then, because you could only go to a place that did not serve alcohol, because you are underage, significantly underage. So, there was the Gaslight Cafe, which was on McDougall Street, but it was until later that was able to go to the bitter end. And the village van, the Village Gate, which is no longer there. I actually have helped redevelop it so it was there, and it was the cafe walk across the street where you could go to so I could listen to Tom Paxton. I saw Bob Dylan, and I got addicted to that. I mean, I to the point that my father, I think, rightfully, felt like he wanted to kill me. Because how many times can you play that thing over and over and over and over and over again. And so that music really was the changing point for my enlightenment, and listening to Phil Ochs. And then when I was in high school, on the high school paper, I actually my next-door neighbor was an accountant for a guy named Grossman, who was manager of Dylan, Peter, Paul, Mary, number other people. So, he got me interviews with-with performers, Eric Anderson, Philip and I wrote these up for my high school newspaper. So, these were, you know, idols to me, but I was, that is where I was spending all my time. So, my parent’s joke, just really, and my brother was, you know, listening to, you know, 45 rock and roll, and that had no interest to me whatsoever. IG: 27:37 Right. Well, they, were, you know, the really, the- these Balladeers were the voice of change, you know, and, and also of kind of building, not camaraderie. What is this word that I am looking for among the young people, right? They- JM: 28:02 I think it is camaraderie. I think it is a shared purpose, or shared ideal, I mean, and also, really what it was-was a rejection of the status quo. And, you know, the gray flannel road was not, was not the road that you had to take. And they were talking about an alternative, and I was completely hooked on that idea. IG: 28:28 But that alternative was artistic-artistic. It was liberal. It was- JM: 28:35 Yeah, it was liberal, it was political. It was rejecting the past, that the norms of the past are not necessarily in concrete and they do not have to be adhered to. And you can change things. You have that ability, and therefore you do not have to subscribe to, eventually, the life I live, but nonetheless, you have to subscribe to go off and find a job and find your place in society. That is the norm. I say that in all due respect, sitting here in a law firm that I am a major partner in. IG: 29:19 Right-right-right. JM: 29:21 Well, you know, there was a point in my life when I found that you could buy things with money, and so it became somewhat more important. IG: 29:25 So, did that? You know, when did that point come? JM: 29:30 After law school. IG: 29:31 After Where did you go to law school? JM: 29:35 I went to law school Tulane in New Orleans. And so, you may ask, why does a nice Jewish boy who was, who was dumb enough to go to school in Binghamton, where the sun never shines, go to where the sun, unfortunately never, not does not shine. And- IG: 29:51 Maybe that is the reason. JM: 29:52 No that was not the reason. I went to Tulane to avoid going to the army. It is you- it is a short story, and I will make it as short as possible. As you probably have researched and noticed there was a lottery system, and I had not a particularly good number in the lottery. In fact, in May, no before May, in April of my last year, I got my letter from Selective Service telling me that I was about to be reclassified and I was going to be drafted, and I will save you all the details, unless you want them. The reason I picked New Orleans is new the way the draft worked was that every draft board had a number of people that had to supply. If your number, was you had to take a simple example. You had to supply 100 people. If 100 people enlisted, nobody got drafted out of that draft board, “Okay,” so I had done extensive research on how I was not going to go to the to the army, and Louisiana had a process which was subsequently declared illegal, but fortunately not at the time that first time, felony offenders in New Orleans were given the choice of enjoying the hospitality of the Louisiana penal system or enlisting. So, by the time I got down to New Orleans, I had already been drafted. I kept on bouncing them back and forth saying, I am in Binghamton. I was drafted out of Brooklyn. Oh, we will send it up to Binghamton. When I got to Binghamton, I was already back in New York, and send it back to New York. And then eventually I went down to New Orleans. I went to register you had to go when you changed jurisdiction, at the draft board. And I remember having all my documents because I had a second way I was going to get out of the draft if the first way did not work. And I went to register it in Louisiana and New Orleans at the draft board. And I think my number was 110 and the guy looked at me and he said, "Get out of here." Would not even take me said "Get out of here. We are not going to get to 60," and that is why [crosstalk] I had no [crosstalk] IG: 31:55 How did you feel? How did you feel when he said- JM: 31:58 I felt ecstatic because I did not have to use my backup, which was I also worked on extensively to have a backup. IG: 32:06 Which is a backup? JM: 32:07 There was a, there was a great doctor in New York called Alan Sorrell--long gone, who was a specialist, an allergist, a specialist in inducing asthma attacks to get you not out of the draft, but it would get you a deferment for six months. And so, he was able to induce in me a series of asthma attacks that I had to get certified by a hospital because they knew Sorrell was a no-good nick. IG: 32:35 How do you induce an asthma attack? JM: 32:37 He- I guess the same way in theory, how you build up resistance to an allergen. But he did it in the opposite. He broke down my resistance. And ultimately what he had determined I was most allergic to was cat dander. And if you are allergic to cat dander, you are particularly allergic to kittens who produce more dander. And so, he I do not through a series of shots. I have never asked him, never asked him why. He then said to me, I think you are ready. "Come in next Thursday." I came in next Thursday, and he had two Persian kitten, Persian kittens, and he locked me in the closet with the two kittens. And it was like when these senior once is opening up “You okay." I could feel myself drowning, literally drowning, and then when I could barely breathe, he said- he was on 30th and Second Avenue, and NYU hospital right across the street. He said, "Okay, you are ready go to the emergency room." And that is so I had my asthma attack. IG: 33:35 I see, I see, but it was temporary- JM: 33:37 Yeah. IG: 33:38 Any- JM: 33:39 Yeah. IG: 33:39 -lasting- JM: 33:40 But that is how I went too late. I had no expectation; I was going to be able to succeed at law school. Because I thought law school was going to be hard, and little did I know law school was at an intellectual level for me, at least of what I would call junior high school. IG: 33:58 Really? JM: 33:59 College was much, was much tougher to get through the courses at Binghamton than it was at law school. Law school was purely regurgitation. You just read it vomited right back at them. And, “Wow, you are brilliant." IG: 34:13 Right-right. And so, you did this right after college. JM: 34:16 I went directly I was- started too late in 1971 and graduated in (19)74. IG: 34:24 Your brother was no longer of draft age. JM: 34:27 Oh no, he was in medical school. He was dental school--got you, got you an exemption. IG: 34:34 Right-right-right-right. Did you share your strategy for avoiding the draft with any of your friends? JM: 34:42 Yes. IG: 34:43 Good. JM: 34:44 All of them. IG: 34:45 All of them. JM: 34:45 This was a team effort. I mean, everybody had a thing they were doing to get out of the track. Some of the people I remember going to school with went to dental school, although they did not really want to, because that was some. Went to podiatry school, which apparently got you eligible for not going to the draft. Those things did not really appeal to me. IG: 35:11 What you know, what role did- what were your I do not know women. They were part of, certainly your, you know, you know, rebellious, rebel, student rebellion. But how did you? Did you during that period when you know you wanted to see the world differently, and did you look at women differently? I mean, did you your expectations of what their role was, or did you still look at women and think, "Well, you know, this is going to be a girlfriend, and then eventually a wife or a partner?" JM: 35:54 Yeah. IG: 35:54 And then- JM: 35:55 I did not have- IG: 35:56 You did not have. JM: 35:57 -very progressive new vision of what women were. IG: 36:01 What- I had not asked you before, what did your parents do? JM: 36:06 My father was in the garment manufacturing business. My mother was a bookkeeper. IG: 36:12 I see. JM: 36:12 My father was sick my entire life. He had as a young child, develop scarlet fever before the invention of penicillin, and in those days, it could kill you, and if it did not kill you, it scarred your heart muscle. So, he had heart disease the entire time I knew him. He died at a very early age of congestive heart failure, just right after I graduated law school, he died. IG: 36:40 but he got to see you a lawyer. JM: 36:43 Not really by the time, by the time I came back to New York, which was a year after graduating law school, I disappeared for a year after graduating law school, because the idea of being a lawyer had no appeal to me whatsoever. I mean, I have to caution you by telling you-you have not asked me what I do as a lawyer. IG: 36:44 Oh, I have not [crosstalk] JM: 36:54 I was extremely, very different kind of practice, and I am one of those few lawyers you will ever meet who actually loves what he does. It is to me, it is a, it is a hoot, what I do for a living, and cannot believe I get paid to do it a lot of money too. But I did not want to be a lawyer after I graduated from law school, so I went to Europe for a year. JM: 37:30 Oh, where did you go? JM: 37:39 Mostly throughout France, and then stayed in Spain for about seven months, at a time when it was extremely cheap and Franco was still in charge of Spain, and so being an American was hardship. IG: 37:56 Yeah-yeah. This was in the mid– (19)70s. JM: 37:59 1974. I was- I only regret that I was in Paris when Nixon resigned. I think I would have enjoyed seeing that here, but I spent 1974 in Europe and came back in (19)75 and by that time, my father was really about to die. He was months away from death, and so he could not attend my swear. To my amazement, to my utter shock and amazement, I had passed the bar exam. I mean, I took the bar exam and figured this was bullshit. I was not passing this, and somehow, I passed it, and so I came back, got it, got admitted, which is a cute story, but and then my father was too ill to attend my swearing in, into the bar, and they never saw any of the early success I had, which I had a remarkable early success at the age of 29. IG: 39:00 What was a remarkable- I am so sorry? JM: 39:05 I was, I was appointed deputy borough president of Manhattan at age of 29 which was, and still is, the youngest person ever in the history city to be appointed to that position. And when I left it in 1983 at the age of 33 to this day, nobody, even at the age of 33 has ever been appointed to that position. IG: 39:26 What did you do in that position? What did it entail? JM: 39:29 The city of New York, back until 1986 was governed by a body called the board of estimate, which was made up of the five borough presidents, one from each borough. The mayor, the controller, is something called the City Council President, which does not exist anymore, and they govern the city of New York. The City Council of the City of New York had no authority at all, and so I represented the borough president on the board of estimate. He never went in all the years I was there, he never showed up once the principals did not really show up. It was run by staff, and so I was essentially the governing power of New York at the age of 29. IG: 40:09 What kind of decisions did you make? JM: 40:10 We decided all land use matters and all contracts, all land use matters development in the city, and all contracts greater than $10,000. We met every other Thursday in public session. We would start at 10am and it would run to about three o'clock in the morning. In 1986 the United States Supreme Court ruled the board of estimates unconstitutional because the borough president of Brooklyn had as much had the same vote as the borough president of Staten Island, despite having five times the population, and that violated the one person one vote law, and so the board was declared unconstitutional--was abolished, abolished 1986 but from 1979 to 1983 I sat on the board. IG: 40:58 What kind of things did you accomplish? JM: 41:02 We changed a lot about the way Manhattan is developed. We shifted development from the east side to the west side, part of recapturing 42nd street Times Square area from the sewer. It had become - And this was also a very heavy time, because New York had was emerging out of its bankruptcy. And so, it was coming back alive. And the it was just to be in that position at that time, was by grace. IG: 41:38 You loved it. It was- IG: 41:40 Right. JM: 41:40 And it is- IG: 41:40 Because New York City is so dynamic. JM: 41:40 And, yeah, and when you do it at my level, you are you have the great ego satisfaction of carving into the city of New York so I can show my fingerprints, which is kind of egocentric. JM: 41:40 It was fantastic. The only problem is, the person I worked for was a complete lunatic, and I needed to leave. I mean, the idea that I left, it was people, "What do you mean? You are leaving this job." I mean, the reason I have a beard, by the way, yeah, is I was 29 years old, and I had 109 or 113 staff, of which all but three were older than me. So, I needed to look older quicker. So, I grew a beard, which I kept. I left because I could not take the craziness any longer. He was just he was so irresponsible, and he had wanted nothing to do with the job. He loved running for office. He hated serving in office. Running is fun. Serving is-is not fun. I mean, actually, doing the job is work. And he did not come from the world of work. He came from the world of campaigning. And so, after a while, I just could not take it any longer. And this was just I wanted enough of it. But by that time, I had learned something which, because I had voice, I had not practiced law yet. It was 10 years after law school. I still had not been a lawyer, and I was a political hack and but I had learned the development world and the land use world of New York, and where I sit here today is one of the more prominent land use attorneys in New York City. So, buildings, shopping centers, apartment houses, radical changes in the infrastructure of the city I am a part of. And to me, I come to work every day, and I know what I am doing to do today is not what I am going to do yesterday, and it will not be what I am doing tomorrow. JM: 42:07 Wonderful. JM: 42:10 Yeah- IG: 43:35 It is wonderful. JM: 43:38 And- IG: 43:39 Have you- I am just curious, have you met Trump? And uh- JM: 43:43 I know I am in Donald, if you do the research, I am in Donald's first biography. IG: 43:48 Oh wow. JM: 43:48 I knew Donald well in the- when I was when I was the deputy borough president, because at the time, he was in a war with the Leona Helmsley, and we were also, now you have gone on this road. [crosstalk] You may end this, but my boss's father, lawyer, and confidant, and who I got to know fairly well was somebody I am sure you have never heard of Roy Cohn, so we knew Roy really well, and I spent a lot of time in Roy's office. As a result of that, Donald was Roy's client also. So, while we were never friends with the Helmsleys, we were by nature friendly with Donald. And when Donald tried to build a convention center on the west side for freak on the condition to be named after him, we were advocates of Donald's. And when he got into his spat with Leona, we sort of came out on his side. I. And then, when I eventually became a land use lawyer, I just recently had met up with a former associate of mine who worked for me at the time, and we remembered the story. We spent two and a half hours in Donald's office. He called me up one day because he knew me and I knew him. He said, "Come over the office. I want to hire you." In fact, he had no intention hiring me. He was, he was having a fee dispute on how surprising with his lifelong lawyer, and so he wanted to sort of let the word go out that he was maybe going to move his business to me. And we spent two and a half hours in his office, which I remember, we talked Deborah and I, who was my, she was my urban planner then; we talked about it, that we had the same memory, that it was an office filled with photographs of him, and he showed off to us for two and a half hours. Now, I am nobody, you know, we are two hairdressers that show up and wait a minute, I have to call Kathie Lee, because she just gave birth, and apparently, she had just given birth and in front of us, he was doing this, and I remember vividly, so now send me a retainer. I am going to build the world's largest building in downtown on the waterfront. There was a site called two bridges that the city was actually thinking of developing at the time. And I remember going down the infamous escalator in Trump Tower, and my associate turned to me and said, I will never forget she looked at me, said, "Not for you." And so, we never sent him the retainer, and that was probably the last time I spoke to him, because he called me up about a week later. He said, "Where is the retainer?" He said, "Retainer." I said, "I am sorry. I will get it out to you immediately." I lied, and that is last time I spoke to Donald. IG: 46:43 What do you I mean, that is really fascinating? I did not know this about your professional background. What do you think are, you know the qualities that owe to your great success? You know what-what is it a predisposition? Is it an ability to I mean, you have demonstrated this by how you found an out from the draft, um- JM: 47:19 Doing development in New York is difficult because it is supposed to be it should not be easy. I think I have an ability to do two things. One, I can see the finish line and figure out how to get there, how to how to navigate through the process, and the key to this is try to convince people that they want what you are suggesting and you want because nobody really wants change. IG: 47:56 I mean, how do you do that? How do you how do you convince people that they want what you are suggesting. JM: 48:03 Well, I mean, the first is an inherent idea in New York that we will constantly evolve and it could be worse. So, I am providing you something that could be better, and try to position that there is merit in what you are doing. And part of it, by the way, what is essential in, it is actually believing it. I do believe that it is better to do what I am proposing than not, that we are creating jobs. We create a place where people live. New York is not some Jeffersonian area where there be agriculture. We are a center of commerce, and we all have an opportunity here because of the commerce. And if you kill that, you there is no quality-of-life reason to live in New York. It is dirty, it is noisy, it is you go to sleep at night and you could read in your room without turning on the lights. There is so much ambient light here. IG: 48:59 Right-right-right. JM: 49:00 So, the only reason to be here, it is a place to-to be able to create enough economics to-to be able to support your life. And I think what I do furthers that, that ball, and all the years I was at deputy borough president, my position always was that, you know, that change, if managed correctly, is more beneficial than not that the that the alternative is not successful, and as God would only do because the Old Testament, God is one mean bastard. The irony of it is that hoisted on my own petard, that is how I met my-my wife of 37 years. IG: 49:52 How do you meet her? JM: 49:54 So, it was 1979; we were crawling out of the morass. We were still, we were still a punch line on Johnny Carson, you know the muggings. JM: 50:08 And you were, you were already working on- JM: 50:10 I am the deputy board president. IG: 50:15 You were already working. JM: 50:15 And-and one of the things that I was a big supporter of, and convinced my boss to be a big supporter of, which is going to sound crazy to you, was what was just beginning with sidewalk cafes and restaurants as a way of bringing people back to the street and increasing commerce. IG: 50:28 It is priceless. Yeah. JM: 50:29 And so, and we were, and I convinced him, and he even pay attention to shit. So, I was a huge supporter of sidewalk cafes, which was now becoming hard to tell you this controversial, because it was creating noise at night, which I thought was great and so but I basically had to screw you. This is how we come back from the morass. My boss, at that time, had a friendly relationship with a publisher named Ed Down, publisher McCall's magazine. He would visit him from time to time to pick up whatever you want to think he picked up. And like in every important man's office, the most important person is not the man, but his secretary, who was ever the gatekeeper is it turned out the secretary lived on West 69th Street on the west side, and she said to my boss, one day, "There is a terrible thing. There was a restaurant on the corner of 69th in Columbus called the Red Baron, and this bastard has an application for a sidewalk cafe, which will destroy life as we know it. So, can you kill it? Because we had the authority to kill it?" It was up to us. And so, he came back to see me, came back to the office. River dropping. And he said, was this cafe 69 she got to kill it, right? And I said, I asked them why? And he tells me “Head Down-Secretary, "Kill it. Kill it. Kid," I said to him, "Let us have some fun." The people on the Upper West Side did not vote for us. We, they were they. We got slaughtered upper west. I said, "Why do not we just fuck with them?" He said, "What do you mean?" I said, "The 69th Street block association is probably one of the strongest block associations. Why do not we go meet with them and we will play good cop, bad cop in front of them. You be sympathetic, and I will tell them what assholes they are." And he said, "That would never work." I said, "It is going to work". So, we go up there. They have 50 people. 50 people over a fucking sidewalk cafe. We come in there and Andrew, my boss, not the sharpest knife in the drawer, asked the question, which turned out to be brilliant. He said, "By a showing of hands, how many people here were born in New York?" There were two hands, Andrew and mine, right? So, this is the last one, and closed the door society, and they start to explain how this intrusion into the side street will just destroy life as we know it on Earth. And I go at them. I am very confrontational with that. And you people just the I mean, you all moved here. I mean, you destroyed it. On and on. We leave. Not to be surprising, on the Upper West Side, in a block Association, there is so many lawyers and so many psychiatrists. The psychiatrists decide that the borough president himself is a wonderful man. That short prick is the problem. Got to deal with the short prick. And they assign the Vice President to the block association to go lobby me, the woman who will become my wife. IG: 53:30 Oh! JM: 53:31 And I am as arrogant a prick as you are going to find. Get away from me. She keeps she comes see me. I think she is very attractive, obviously, I think she still is, and I am as cruel as humanly possible, because I know I am going to have to vote for them. I am going to have to do this because he is because they go back and report to the secretary. Next time he comes up to his office, she is her heads exploding. He comes back to me, goes, "What are you doing? [crosstalk] Stop it." "We will be fine. It will all be okay." And that is how I meet my wife. She comes to fight city hall, and eventually there, there is flirtation and there is friction, and then the night of the vote to every to her shock and surprise, it is like you son of a bitch, you did this to me this entire time, and from that date of the vote, we then were never apart afterwards, we got married a year later. IG: 54:37 So, tell me a little bit about her where, what was her background? Did she- JM: 54:42 She was- IG: 54:42 New Yorkers? JM: 54:43 Well, she was one of the people the room. She could not raise her hand. She was born on Long Island out near Suffolk County, and came to New York to find her way. She was in the catering business. IG: 54:56 I see. JM: 54:57 And she was struggling. IG: 54:58 Yeah. JM: 55:00 But she was having a great time living on the Upper West Side with all the other communists, Trotskyites, [inaudible] types, and she became very active in her Block Association, and that is who she was. And she had not been married. I had been married to a Harpur College, someone I met at Harpur. IG: 55:24 I did not know. Well, of course, I mean, I did not ask, I did not ask. JM: 55:28 She was a year behind me. We got married for no reason whatsoever, other than the fact that everyone in our social circle was getting married. IG: 55:42 Really? That is so interesting, because on the one hand, you are social progressives- JM: 55:46 Yeah. But-but- IG: 55:47 Yet you are embracing marriage. And- JM: 55:49 Yeah-yeah, I was- IG: 55:49 -an establishment career eventually- JM: 55:50 A complete one. IG: 55:52 Yeah. JM: 55:53 Complete wimp, and we got married. I have a suspicion that she, like me, never thought we should get married, but it was her family. She had come down to live with me after graduating from New Orleans, started working, helped support me in my last year in law school. And I think her parents were very-very conservative, Orthodox Jews. My current wife is Polish Catholic, and she was under enormous pressure from her parents and all my friends at that point in law school, all the social friends we had were now getting married that year. And everybody got married last year at Tulane. Because, if you were Tulane had, besides being, despite being a somewhat progressive school for southern school, had a particularly sexist point of view about scholarship money. If you were married, it was assumed that your spouse could go earn living, and therefore you were not entitled to any financial support, even if the woman you were marrying was a Tulane student, and so everybody got married in October, because financial aid had been set in September. And so similarly, we got married like everybody else in October. And six years later, we separated in New York after she graduated law school. IG: 57:21 You had seen each other through law school and well, beginnings of your career. JM: 57:26 Well, I did not so much see her through law school, as much as that was my justification that I could leave this relationship, that she had helped me through law school. So, I supported her through law school, and then got her a job by extortion of the using my authority I was still, I was deputy royal president when I was married to her, and I was divorced for about an hour and a half, and I was able to use my-my power to force the law department to hire which did not last, and she actually did not want to be a lawyer. IG: 58:11 What kind of cases are you- JM: 58:13 I am good on time. IG: 58:15 Okay, what kind of cases are you working on now? What are some of the- JM: 58:20 Okay. You want me to show up? IG: 58:21 Yes. JM: 58:24 Really, viciously honest. Probably the case of most visibility. I am going to tell you things you can all Google it. So that is-is something called Industry City, which is 30 acres of industrial property in the waterfront in Brooklyn, which is part of what we call the innovation economy, as artisanal manufacturing is flourishing in New York. And we are really the incubator there, and we are changing the land use there. To give you five seconds about American land uses. We are what I would call junkyard zoning. The idea was always to take the dirty uses and put them as far away from the residential uses, and then gradually the uses, the less and less intense, come to merge in the middle. What we have learned is we do not want to live that way anymore in the 21st century, our-our manufacturing is not as dirty as it once was, because we do not do dirty things anymore. In America, we do not manufacture foundries. So-so the idea that you have to separate that from where people live is not the same reason, and now people want to live closer to where they work now. And also, manufacturing is now part of academics. I mean technology, technology schools are, colleges are very much a part of the new innovation economy. And so, the zoning basically says, "Well, if you do heavy manufacturing, you cannot do any of these other uses nearby." And what we are doing at Industry City is saying, for the first time in New York, "No, we are going to change that." We are going to actually be able to bring academics into manufacturing so they can coexist. And so, the guy who is the, you know, the glass blower is our artisanal we are the largest maker of drones is there an Industry City? IG: 1:00:24 Where is industry city? JM: 1:00:26 Sunset Park, Brooklyn, which is along the water. So- IG: 1:00:32 How interesting. And what are the schools involved in this? JM: 1:00:36 Well, we do not have one. IG: 1:00:36 You do not have one. JM: 1:00:36 We do not have one because we are not permitted. So, we believe, so far, the only Mellon has come into New York and gone into the Brooklyn Navy Yard, which is a city owned site. We are privately owned. We are the largest privately owned industrial site in the city. We have had, we have had significant interest from engineering schools, saying, call us when we can do this. So, we think we will be able to bring in as much as 700,000 square feet of academic uses into the manufacturing world. So that is the most interesting thing I am doing now. I am also- IG: 1:01:20 That is fantastic. That is fantastic. JM: 1:01:20 I am representing Brooklyn Hospital, which is the last independent hospital in Brooklyn that has not been swallowed by Mount Sinai or Columbia Presbyterian. And what we are trying to do there is stay independent there. There is a rationale why independent is better than not being independent, because when you become affiliated, it is one shop for everybody. So, we have- we were saying it is part of our propaganda, but we think it is true that we are best able to treat our unique population needs because they are not the same everywhere. Populations predominantly black and brown, and there are certain unique medical issues, but we cannot afford to stay in business, because, frankly, we do not have the wealth that Mount Sinai has and Northwell has. So, we are saying to the city of New York, look, we have this beautiful campus in Fort Greene, right next to Fort Greene Park, which is beautiful park. Let us significantly increase the permitted density on our site, and let us monetize that by selling it to developers, so we will have this pot of money that will allow us to stay alive as an independent institution. So, I have just begun that process. IG: 1:01:22 What do you mean increased density? JM: 1:01:22 In other words, when you own this piece of property in New York, depending on what zoning district you are in, you can build x. So, we are saying, “Let us build x up here, and we can sell this and create our own endowment without any government subsidy of cash.” So, we are doing that in Queens. I am currently working for Kauffman Astoria Studios and rezoning five blocks around them to create in Queens the first mixed use arts district that will include housing. IG: 1:01:22 How fantastic. JM: 1:01:22 I tell you. [crosstalk] And then I do normal shit--apartment houses in Manhattan, which, yeah, I have done, in my opinion, some of the most attractive buildings in New York, and also have been responsible for some of the ugliest things that have ever been built. And I take my daughters around and show them that. IG: 1:01:22 Are they both lawyers? JM: 1:01:22 No, neither one. My-my oldest daughter is a teacher, and my youngest daughter is a hippie. She is living the life that I thought I aspire to, but having seen it, I do not, do not want it, but they were great. They were both happy, and they had, you know, they were fortunate enough not to know what a college loan looked like, and I was never happier than writing tuition checks. I said to both of my kids, go to school for as long as you want. They both went to private schools, the idea they would go to SUNY was they would burn their hair first. So, my older daughter went to Hobart, which is uniquely situated between Rochester and Syracuse, a pit, and my younger daughter went to Hartwick in Oneonta. And then she did not my younger daughter did not go to any graduate school. My older daughter went to Philadelphia School of Fine Arts to get a Master's in Fine Arts and in something that I believe has not been economics since Gutenberg printmaking and. Then, fortunately, she then found what she wanted to do, came back to New York, which pleased us to no end, and went to Fordham to get her master's in education. And as I said, we have said to we always said to our kids, go to school. Not a problem. We will pay tuition and support you to go to school forever and as long as you want. And we always were sad that my younger daughter did not want to go to graduate school and still finding her way. But they both live in New York. IG: 1:01:22 That is- you are very lucky. JM: 1:02:05 Yeah, I am very lucky, but except for one thing, which I am extremely lucky about. So, in 1992 I was diagnosed with inoperable brain cancer. I had developed a stuffed nose, and I went to see an ear, nose and throat doctor who looked up my beak, and he said, you have a polyp that is huge. And he said, we have to cut it out. And at that time, I was doing this was land use lawyer, and I said, I cannot do it. Next week. I have a hearing. He said, "Not a problem. It is a polyp. It is a polyp." And he said, "We got to take a small piece of it first." And I said to him, "What is the chance it is cancer." He looked at me like there is no chance where you would need it. You are a moron. And literally, that was on a Thursday, and on Monday I got to Houston, we have a problem. Phone call. It came back hot. Is a renal clear cell carcinoma in the nth point sinus, which is a pocket of air that sits right here, where your brain sits on. And had it been benign, it would be just as dangerous, because it could grow and break something called the cribriform bone, which your brain sits on top of. And I went to three doctors, three surgeons, who said to me, the last guy gave me my check back. I will never forget that gave me my check back. And I finally found the guy at Sloan Kettering who became, ultimately the head of head and neck, John Shah. And he said, "I have never done it." He said, “Frankly, there is probably never” he said, “Nobody gets cancer there.” The first thought was, this cannot be so you must have it someplace else. So, I went through a series of tests of find that cancer, you know, and they could not find it anywhere else, and it was nowhere else because, and they said, "Okay." He said, "In theory, I should be able to do this, but it is going to take two surgical teams. We need to bring in a neurological team and-and I am the head and neck guy." Because they are going to have to flip your lid and take your body apart like you missed the potato head. 15 hours of surgery, two surgical teams, and they were able to so I have a scar that goes from here to here, oh, my God. And I have one that goes on the side of my nose. As you can see- IG: 1:03:14 It is inconspicuous. JM: 1:03:14 I had- I was such an arrogant prick that I said to Shah, "Do we need a plastic surgeon?" And he looked at me like, "Son, what do you think I am?" [laughs] IG: 1:03:14 Yeah, exactly. JM: 1:03:14 "You want a plastic surgeon." And-and I had the operation, and what it resulted in is I am somebody who has zero sense of smell, because they had to sever the olfactory nerve. And so that is, that is what that is that was the only price I paid. His brilliant surgery was able to take the tumor out. It was encapsulated, had metastasized, and I was [crosstalk] IG: 1:08:57 Saved your life. JM: 1:08:58 [crosstalk] saved my life. I was back at work in 30 days. IG: 1:09:06 And that changed- JM: 1:09:07 Nothing. IG: 1:09:08 Nothing. JM: 1:09:14 Because I was never sick. I mean, I have stuffed nose, I mean, I did not have, you know, cancer, the jaw. IG: 1:09:21 You are afraid that you might die. JM: 1:09:23 I could not believe I was going to die. What I was most afraid of, you said, because this is, you know, Jewish whining piece of shit. I was afraid of disfigurement and pain because I have zero tolerance for discomfort. And so, but I just could not get you, I mean, I was otherwise healthy. Again, I am going to die, right? Made no sense. And so, I guess I never thought I would die. IG: 1:09:55 And you were, you were young, you were young. JM: 1:09:57 I was 42 years old--it occurred- IG: 1:10:00 Yeah. JM: 1:10:00 The operation occurred to my 42nd birthday, and I lost one day of my life. I mean, I was gone for an entire day, and-and then, you know, I got punished for being the arrogant schmuck I am anyway. So-so when you have brain surgery because he had to take this bone away and drain my brain. So, the first problem they always have is that, did they put everything back correctly? And so, until-until you are, you are stable, you are under the control of the neurological team. And I, they would not, they do not hand me back to my real doctor. They had a neck doctor. So, they come in every day, [inaudible] Sloan Kettering. There is no- I am on painkiller because face, but there is nothing they do because they are just worried you are going to get an infection if you have brain surgery. And so, it is every day take a temperature, and every day they want to see if you are confused. So, what is your name? Why-why are you here? So, on the fourth day, they came in to see me, and at this point, I am fine, I am off the pain killer, and they say to me, why are you here? And I said, I just killed the Archduke Ferdinand [Irene laughs] worldwide anarchist movement. They do not say, stop it. IG: 1:11:31 Because they lef.t JM: 1:11:32 They back up. And next thing is, you hear footsteps. My wife is sitting there looking at me like and then you hear people running full speed into the room. So, the doctors, guys and my surgeon, the head neck guy, came to see me that night, and he looked at me, said, "You are really a jerk." He said, "You are being punished now they are not turning you over for another day". I am one of the few people you know that got expelled from Sloan Kettering. I was supposed to be there for-for three weeks, and after two weeks, they asked me to leave. IG: 1:12:10 That is the point of honor. JM: 1:12:11 Because there is nothing wrong with me. I do not look disfigured, right? And I am on the head and neck floor, which looks like a Fellini nightmare, yeah, people and every day you line up for treatment. It is a gulag, and there are people there that are so horribly maimed and destroyed by a hospital. Mr. So and so you look carefully, look terribly dead. You are going home, and I am there with the New York Times reading it with a cup of coffee, and they told me, we will see you tomorrow. There is nothing they could do for me. So, I started getting stoned and so and great thing is Sloane, which is on York Avenue, the people will be lined up at night, 11 o'clock at night, smoking cigarettes through the trade. And I am the last one on the line smoking a joint. They bust me in the patience lounge on the 15th floor, outside with the head of terrorists. But I am smoking a joint that point. They said, "We think you should leave the hospital." Okay? And I was dismissed a week early. IG: 1:13:11 And you did this deliberately to get- JM: 1:13:14 No. I was so bored. IG: 1:13:15 You were bored. JM: 1:13:16 I was bored beyond belief. I had visitors. The people were amazed. It was coming to visit me. The Queens borough president was seeing came to see me, the Bronx borough president. I knew all these people. They are my friends from the days working in government, and they would say to me, "What are you doing here?" I said, I have no idea. I have no tubes in me. Can you imagine being in a hospital for two weeks and they do not take blood? I think it violates a law or something. IG: 1:13:39 Yeah, and especially when, when people are significantly- JM: 1:13:43 But blood would not indicate. All they did was take my temperature to see if I spiked my fever. And that was, I mean, that is so I am bored to death. And every day I am walking to the Gulag, you know, for the treatment. And I there is no treatment to give me. There is nothing to do. It is done. I had a nose job, basically, the mother of all nose jobs, nonetheless. But it was a nose job. That is what I had. They took out my septum, and you boom, and I have a sinus here, that is, you know, unencumbered by chambers. And then they had a gross but they had pulled tissue, so things up, but it all was inside. And, you know, there was no post operative treatment. And walked away, and came back only a few times to the hospital because Shah was no longer interested in me. It was clear that I had survived. And so he is, he is a scientist. I am of no interest to him. So, after my second return visit, he said, "We will let the resident look at you. I would not let him operate, at least. Why am I going to let him look at me? We are done." He said, "Okay, we are done." IG: 1:14:55 Yeah. I mean, we could talk about this. [crosstalk] JM: 1:15:07 You graduated from Harpur things like this. IG: 1:15:10 But that is so interesting, so interesting. And you are, you know, natural storyteller. JM: 1:15:18 Yes, which is the ability to be a [inaudible] so I have to be I do not do this as much anymore, but I used to stand up in front of hostile communities and get them to first see that I was a human. So, it is hard to hate you. I have always told clients the magic in doing these projects is you got to keep showing up. So, the first day you show up, everyone hates you, and the second day, they still hate you. By the fourth or fifth time you are a person now, and so you got a cold, you okay, you feel all right, right, because all of a sudden you are humanized. Now, once I am humanized, I can start to tell you about my project. IG: 1:15:59 That is actually very excellent advice to you know, young people listening to this tape, and- JM: 1:16:10 You promised me, no one is going to listen to this tape. IG: 1:16:12 No one is going to listen to this tape, we are going to excerpt. And you know I am thinking like, what section? JM: 1:16:20 About Harpur and plus, I have a huge complaint you do not make Harpur paraphernalia. You only make SUNY Binghamton paraphernalia. Those of us who graduated, when we graduated, do not really tell people we went to SUNY Binghamton. It was not SUNY Binghamton when I was there. IG: 1:16:46 No. JM: 1:16:46 Actually, that is not true. It became SUNY Bingham while I was there. But I did not get admitted to SUNY Binghamton. And my diploma says Harpur College. I mean, so, but you do not have any paraphernalia. IG: 1:17:01 Meaning? JM: 1:17:03 T shirts, hats. IG: 1:17:05 I see, I see, okay, so that that is something that we can work on. JM: 1:17:09 The number of us who are Harpur graduates, every year or less, we like World War One veterans. IG: 1:17:16 Yeah, I know, I know, but, but I mean that this is the way of life. But, yeah, there quite a number of you still very active. These are the people that I spoke to and-and they share your sentiment that they really identify as Harpur graduate rather than Binghamton. JM: 1:17:33 Yeah. IG: 1:17:35 So, you know, maybe as a concluding you-you, you certainly can conclude with any thoughts that you- JM: 1:17:45 I have no closing statement. IG: 1:17:47 You know, so, so what-what lessons did you learn from this period in your life that- JM: 1:17:53 I grew up. IG: 1:17:54 You grew up. JM: 1:17:55 I mean, yeah. I mean it-it made me be responsible for me, yeah, which I was never before, and it was a great environment, it was safe, it was secure, and maybe it was none of that, but I certainly felt it, I did not feel I was I was so amazed that I was now responsible for going to school, and nobody was there to tell me to go to school. I mean, it sounds kind of dumb, but wow. I mean, if I do not go, no one is going to call me up and say where I was. And somehow it made me an adult. Began it began to make me adult. I do not know if I am there yet, but, but it was- I was not a child, at least anymore, and I was somewhat responsible, or at least I thought I was going to become responsible for me. And I then made my own choice without consultation with anyone that where I was going to law school, you went through the application process by so without talking to any my parents, my family, my brother, and I think I was on my way to being on my own, and I owe that to Harpur [crosstalk] and the music was good. IG: 1:19:27 And the music was good. JM: 1:19:28 Paul Butterfield would perform there, the Turtles. I saw the Turtles there. Saw the Grateful Dead, and then also went to Ithaca to see the Who, when they just started doing Tommy and I am old. IG: 1:19:43 Well, you share this love with the Dean of Libraries, because I think he, he is, he is a bit younger than you. JM: 1:19:53 So is most of the western world. IG: 1:19:56 No, do not say that. No, and, and so he went to see the Grateful Dead. That was a very highlight of his young life. Any concluding remarks? JM: 1:20:10 Thank you, Irene. IG: 1:20:11 Thank you very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jesse Masyr Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Masyr, Jesse ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Partner at Fox Rothschild in New York. He specializes in real estate law and is responsible for bringing legislation that permitted sidewalk cafes to Manhattan. Prior to joining the firm, Jesse was the founder of the Land Use Department and a named partner in the law firm of Wachtel Masyr & Missry LLP. He also previously served as Deputy Borough President of Manhattan, where for five years he represented the Borough President on the Board of Estimate. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-11-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Jesse Masyr, '73.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-11-28 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 80:12 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3bcab5d4c67ef94cf99c878ad8118575.mp3 ca9b8719713ef15f6d347d1606787be5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2da63901bf575d17c1f6a212af18aa7d.jpg eb73506bbae5cf3912d5e771970a2a86 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-10-18 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Lenore Ruth Greenberg Year of Graduation 1972 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text After earning her degree at Binghamton, Lenore earned a master’s degree in library sciences from SUNY Albany. She worked in records management at numerous companies, including <span>Iron Mountain LLC.</span> She was also adjunct professor of records management at Nassau Community College in Garden City, NY. <span>Partners since 1985, Ms. Greenberg and her wife Ms. Roberta Treacy were early champions of marriage equality. They met while working </span><span>at Anchor Savings Bank in Brooklyn. </span> Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in library science; Harpur College – Alumni from Great Neck, Long Island; Harpur College – Alumni living in Malverne, Long Island; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Lenore Ruth Greenberg Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 18 October 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) LG: 00:02 So, my name is Lenore Greenberg. I am a 1972 graduate of Harpur College. I have been- I left Harpur and got a master's at SUNY Albany, (19)74 in library science, and I am now happily retired, we are sitting in Malvern having a discussion about my memories or recollections from the (19)60s, and I hope other things too, IG: 00:30 Very good. So where- just tell us a little bit about where you grew up, what your parents did, what your upbringing was like. LG: 00:40 Okay, I grew up on Long Island in Great Neck. My father was an account executive, and my mom was a quote and quote, homemaker. When I was in seventh grade, she started again, working outside the house, starting with the with the Girl Scouts. And I had two siblings. We lived in a one family house with the dog and the two parents and the three children. And my dad had gone to college. He had a degree in chemistry. My mother, who was very bright, had not gone to college, and I do not know what else I should tell you about that. IG: 01:27 Well, that gives us a sense so you were encouraged to pursue your studies. I take it. LG: 01:40 No, I was not discouraged. Certainly, my brother did not go to college. My sister and I both did. And yeah, I guess I was supported to go to college, not with a particular career path in mind, because I did not know what I wanted to do, and so I wanted to get a good general education, which is part of how I ended up at Harpur and then subsequently made a career path. But my parents were supportive, and they were proud of me for going to school and going to a good school and graduating. IG: 02:22 Good, so why did you decide on Harpur College? Did you look at other schools? LG: 02:29 I did, certainly look at other schools. I transferred into Harpur after my freshman year. I was at a local school, and I just did not feel it was giving me enough of what I was looking for, I applied to several of the SUNYs happily got into them, and the program at Harpur was more to my liking. I went to visit. I am not going to mention the other ones. I went to visit, and I liked what I saw more at Binghamton. Then when I saw at the other schools, part of what I liked was the size of the school, and I think it is a lot bigger now, from what I have been reading, but I looked at some of the different university centers, and Binghamton seemed a nicer fit for me. IG: 03:16 Right. So, and what year did you enter Binghamton? What was the when you transferred? What year was that? LG: 03:24 My sophomore year, and which would have been (19)69, (19)70. IG: 03:29 (19)69. So, what did the campus what was the campus like? What was the environment like when you came in? LG: 03:35 In terms of the buildings, they were not it was they were not too pretty. They were utilitarian. And certainly, most of the time it seemed like there was snow on the campus, but the I think educational opportunities were outstanding, and I then had a school experience to compare it to. And in fact, one summer, I also took a course at the local community college because I wanted to get some more credits under my belt. And I just thought Binghamton was a nicer intellectual environment- IG: 04:23 Right-right. LG: 04:23 -than the others I had experienced. IG: 04:25 Right. So, and what were the- your fellow students like this was a time of great change and ferment on campuses, on college campuses, what did you experience of that? LG: 04:45 And-and I had a sense that Binghamton was a little bit more out there than some other schools, too. IG: 04:51 Yeah. LG: 04:53 A lot of the other students, I knew. It was when I was at Harpur. And I am using the terms kind of interchangeably obviously, a lot of the other students were down staters were predominantly but not in all Jewish Americans. And there was certainly a diversity, but it was a disproportionately white down state school environment. I think I lost the rest of your question. IG: 05:23 So just what were the students like? So, you are describing that, that they were kind of more out there, and it was- LG: 05:31 I will give you a perfect example out there. Perfect example. It was not until my senior year of school that I had spring finals, because every other year the school closed down for protests against the Vietnam War. IG: 05:46 Wow, that is great. LG: 05:47 And one year I remember going to Washington by bus. One year I remember going to Washington in somebody's Volkswagen, but we went and we marched, and 1000s people left Harpur to go protest the war. IG: 06:04 Okay, so did your parents- were your parents politically inclined? Were they? LG: 06:10 Not until Kent State, my parents were- IG: 06:13 They reacted to it. LG: 06:14 Yes, my parents were not enthusiastic. I was going off on these various marches and that that school was closed for us to go protest the Vietnam War after Kent State, my father, who was even more conservative than my mother, said he supported the end of the war and understood what we were doing, remembering, of course, that There was a draft at that point and so, a draft for young men, and so all young men were being caught up in that it was not a volunteer military, and that made a huge difference. So, there was the-the political and economic reasons, and there was the draft reasons. People certainly did not want to get involved. I knew people who went to Canada rather than get drafted if they had a low draft number. So-so there was a politically active environment. I still went to school and I still learned things, but there were a lot of politics going on. I saw- you might be thinking about things like women's rights and gay rights. There was some early Inklings when I was at Harpur, but I would not say a lot. There was a gay association meeting, but I do not think there were a lot of people who showed up for it. I do not know for sure. I for sure. And feminism was something that, philosophically, one believed in, but there was not a lot of consciousness raising yet. So, it was really on the cusp of a lot of these things. IG: 07:53 I think, I think that that is the sense that I have gotten from other alumni I have interviewed. So, I am just curious, where did your obviously, you were very engaged in the politics of the time. Where did you politicize- how did your politicization come about? Was it from high school? It was, did it happen at Harpur College? Do you remember how that happened? LG: 08:22 It is a good question. I would have to say kind of yes and yes. In high school, lots of people were concerned, involved doing things about civil rights, and think there was an evolution to the, to-to world view. And of course, a disproportionate number of the soldiers of American soldiers in Vietnam were minority soldiers, so it was a likely evolution. As an example, when I was in high school, Martin Luther King spoke at my synagogue, and he spoke about civil rights, [crosstalk] yeah, IG: 09:04 I did not know. LG: 09:05 And he spoke about, of course, civil right. And I remember one of the congregants said to him, "What about the war in Vietnam? What is your stance?" His answer at that point was, I am paraphrasing wildly, was basically, "I have enough on my plate trying to deal with civil rights at home." This was before the Voting Rights Act had been passed. Shortly thereafter, he came out against the war in Vietnam, because it is all interrelated. And so, from high school, there were political issues going on at Harpur, it was even more so. There was more of an awareness. And whether it was other students or some of the faculty or articles in the newspaper, the campus paper, or information on the news, there was more of an awareness. And I think virtually everybody I socialized with, if not literally everyone who I considered friends would were equally involved and motivated to do something specifically about the war and then about other issues as well. IG: 10:17 So-so, you know, I mean, it was, it was you were, you were in the I do not know how many marches on Washington there were, but you were, you were there. Could you describe how you sort of rallied together as a group and went on one of these marches? LG: 10:40 I have been to Washington many times for different marches IG: 10:45 As a Harpur College student? LG: 10:46 Right-right. So, there were things having been there even before on other marches, there were things I was used to, things I would look at. And I have also been to Washington since then for other protest marches. So, I remember one year going down, and I think that was the year we took the bus. We all busses out of Binghamton, and we stayed more or less as a group and followed the route that had been set. But I remember the following year when we were in cars, and this was salient to how I traveled, because we came into the city by a different route, and seeing tanks and soldiers with guns, machine guns, on top of federal buildings. And whereas that certainly was both meant to and accomplished intimidation. It was meant to intimidate us. It also redoubled our spirit that we were there for a reason to tell the government what they had to do, not agree, just to let things go on as they are. So, we marched this group. I do not remember if we launched behind any banner that said SUNY Binghamton or not, but there were 1000s, or 10s of 1000s, certainly, of people protesting the war. And when we read about it the next day in the paper or we saw it on the TV news, we felt we were trying, we were accomplishing something to get our voices heard that this was an inappropriate action by our government. IG: 12:21 That, you know, it must be a tremendous experience to have a sense that at a young age, your actions can actually influence world politics, world you know, I do not know that this generation has the sense. LG: 12:39 Which generation you are talking? IG: 12:40 Well, the current, you know- LG: 12:41 I think- LG: 12:42 I think, for example, on gun control, the people, I hope, are at Harpur now, I think are more involved in trying to get some sane gun laws passed, because they were feeling more impacted by it. The baby boomers definitely impacted what was going on in Vietnam and definitely impacted foreign policy. That is huge thing. I expected my generation to keep doing things like that, and I think we have done some other things, but not as dramatic, IG: 12:42 -certainly- IG: 13:14 Not as dramatic as (19)60s. LG: 13:16 Well, you have to have something dramatic to fight against to have some dramatic results. And-and IG: 13:23 As we do now. LG: 13:24 And so, for example, we have gone to the women's march in DC, and IG: 13:32 But that was after your time at Harpur. This was- LG: 13:35 Yes, two years ago. I am saying, for example, IG: 13:37 I see. LG: 13:39 So, there is a continuity of social activism. IG: 13:42 That is wonderful. LG: 13:44 Or we have gone to some gun-gun control rallies. So, I think there is a continuity. And I know I am in touch still with a couple of people who I went to school with, and I know one was a lawyer who deals with immigration rights, so she has made it her career to help people. And another one, who was, who was an artist also does social or volunteer work, I think is the best word with a very diverse group. So, I think there is a thread that is followed through. I feel from my time at Harpur, I think other people probably do too. IG: 14:33 I think, you know, it is certainly true, but they express their engagement with the-the world in different ways, you know, they may not have been, as the people that I have spoken to, you know, continue being participants in group protest. I think that this is, you know, this is your-your path. This is LG: 15:01 One of the famous quotes out of early feminism. Is the personal is political. So however, you take it, to implement it if you have an emotional or political stance that something should be this way or that way? IG: 15:15 Yeah, well, let us talk about this a little bit. Because, you know, in the late (19)60s, certainly, you know, this is a time of rethinking roles and in the household, and you know you were, you were brought up, maybe in a certain way, and you know, maybe to, I do not know, I do not want to put words into your mouth that, you know, maybe your parents expected you to get married, you know, to have a family or not. But you know, how did that sort of, you know, expanding of consciousness take place, and was it at all at college or? LG: 15:59 Certainly, I think it was expected that I would, I would have the more traditional life path and find a husband and have some kids and follow that path, which obviously I have not. I think more of the consciousness raising was post Binghamton years more so when I was in graduate school, I think feminist movement got more of its legs under it, or at least I knew more about it at that point. IG: 16:29 What years did you go to graduate at- LG: 16:31 I graduated in (19)74 and this is from SUNY Albany. IG: 16:36 Yeah, so, but-but sort of, you know, feminism, the feminist movement. When did it start kicking in in the late (19)70s, or, you know, I mean- LG: 16:49 Oh no, early-early, way earlier. Sidebar, I was at a dinner at which Gloria Steinem spoke and I rifled through some of my old stuff, and I found my first copy of MS Magazine, and I took it to her and got her to sign it my prized possession. And she looked at the cover, and it shows Wonder Woman striding over the land and saying, health care for everyone and food for everyone and end the war. And Gloria Steinem said to me, "Would not it be wonderful if we could have accomplished that in these years?" And I said, "Who was still working for it?" And so, there is things do not happen overnight. And we still keep looking for them. IG: 17:36 Yeah. But it is, it is, it is tremendous how you know, what a sea change mores, you know, norms, yes, social norms have undergone, you know, and since you graduated. LG: 17:54 Yes, absolutely-absolutely, most of the- I was an English Lit major. IG: 18:01 Yeah, tell us, we need to talk about it. LG: 18:03 Okay, most of the authors whose works I studied were men. IG: 18:10 Yes. LG: 18:13 With very few exceptions. And so, one could graduate at that point and think that the only literature had been written by men. IG: 18:25 Well, with the exception of Austin and Brontes. LG: 18:28 Yes, I said, yeah. [crosstalk] But really, far fewer than- IG: 18:33 Far fewer, of course, of course. LG: 18:36 -just a whole different world, and not only men, but European men. IG: 18:39 Yes. LG: 18:40 So, the voices we heard were very different than what a curriculum is now. And I have, I have spoken to friends of mine who are either professors or even high school teachers, and asked them and gotten book record. Asked them what-what their curriculum is, what-what, who was- what authors they are reading, got recommendations and follow through on things like that. Because I feel that my education, although wonderful, was very stilted/ We did not know it. Then, of course IG: 19:12 We did not know that. We did not know that. LG: 19:13 We thought, we thought, well, these are the voices, whereas, obviously they were some of the voices. IG: 19:15 There were some of the voices right. LG: 19:24 Even I took a course specifically in American Jewish fiction. And I was thinking about this the other day when I knew- IG: 19:35 Bella Roth. LG: 19:37 All-all of the writers we studied exactly- IG: 19:41 Were men. LG: 19:42 -were men. Now, subsequently- IG: 19:45 Yeah, subsequently. LG: 19:46 -I know that there have been women writers, and fine women writers. Should have been included. It was just, shall I say, an assumption, yeah, this is who you would study. So, there was built in by. Bias that I believe has been rectified in coursework these days, but when I was there, it was not. IG: 20:09 So, was it frightening? Was it frightening to kind of go against the grain in some way, or I mean, what was the emotional impact of that? LG: 20:21 In terms of? IG: 20:23 In terms of, you know, of siding with siding with the activists, the feminist activists, and- LG: 20:32 Certainly, being an activist against war in Vietnam was something that virtually everybody at Harpur did, so that was siding with, siding with, with people who were there, yeah, becoming more feminist was, is, and still is somewhat challenged by people. But when you, when something is, you do it, right choice. It is the right thing. IG: 21:04 Right. So, but that is that is looking at the past, you know, that is looking at the past from the perspective of now, but it might have been, you know, anyway. I mean, it is just, it is interesting to consider that, you know, you still probably have to go through some kind of emotional journey, right? LG: 21:24 Sure-sure. IG: 21:25 Yeah, okay, so-so, you know, let us How did you, you know, let us talk about your easier subjects, your-your coursework, and some memorable professors and- LG: 21:41 Coursework professors. That is been a few years. So, I may not come up with names as readily. Because it just, you know, other things that I am thinking about. There were some very large lecture halls, and then we would have teaching assistants who might do some follow up classwork with us. I do not know if that is still a structure in use. IG: 22:03 Probably. LG: 22:04 As the years went on, the classes got smaller because they were more specialized. They were less generalized. And so that one class I mentioned was, I am thinking, two dozen students, an off the cuff guesstimate, and I remember some of the professors and the outstanding ones I thought were extraordinary. I thought they were wonderful. But I do not know that I am going to come up with any of their names. IG: 22:35 It does not it does not matter what were some of the classes that you took that still have maybe an impact, that they open something for you. LG: 22:46 So certainly, some of the Shakespeare classes were wonderful, and American literature I found meaningful and in which way, in which way, learning about new things, learning about new subjects, topics, issues that I had not known about. I mean, as a kid, I did not know about them, Shakespeare, in terms of all he brings to any of his plays in human aspects and how people deal with one another. I took a course in the Bible is literature, yeah, and I had not occurred to me that that even could have been taught that way, and learning the-the logic of the flow of the Bible was just a mind expansion for one of description and so and so. What I think I got out of a lot of it was not only new thoughts, but ways to think of things, not necessarily the ways I had thought of them before. That it was that anything I was looking at were opportunities to think about them in a different path. IG: 24:01 That is very interesting. Okay, so returning also to campus. So, you-you were very involved in the anti-war movement, but you know how and-and your classes, obviously, how did you spend the rest of your free time on campus was, was Harpur College? Was it still Harpur College a party school? Did? Were there parties? Were there? I mean, how did- LG: 24:40 I would not think of it as a quote, unquote party school, because my definition of a party school is that-that is the main reason some people are there. Now I had one friend who was absolutely partying all the time, but she never graduated. And yes, I would have to say there were parties, but um, not capriciously, people, by and large, did also study or go to school, and that was the main reason we were there. I remember one night, somebody said we should have a party, and somebody else said, “We need an excuse. What is the reason?” somebody in this group looked at the calendar and said, "Oh, it is Arizona Statehood Day." So, we had an Arizona Statehood Day party that went on for several years. [crosstalk] the dorm [crosstalk]I have no idea if it continues. It was an excuse for a party, but I do not think of it as primarily a party school. There was great camaraderie, there was great socialization. Sometimes just walk down the hall and fall into somebody else's dorm room and, you know, talk for hours and hours. But it was not specifically a let us go out and drink school when I was there. IG: 25:52 And there were, in particularly, a lot of bars to go drinking. LG: 25:56 I do not recall a lot of bars in the neighborhood at all. IG: 25:59 Well, you know, and Binghamton, I mean, you come from Great Neck, so you were, I mean, Long Island was different when you were growing up, right than it is now. So, you probably had seen sort of, you know, pockets of more rural life around you in Long Island. But how did Binghamton strike you; did it give you a sense that America is very different than your particular, you know, New York experience. LG: 26:31 Hmm. IG: 26:33 Did- I mean? What? What did you think of Binghamton? LG: 26:37 We have already discussed what I thought of the weather, so that was not a selling point. And the area, I did not think the city was too sophisticated. Trying to get a good bagel was virtually impossible. We had a friend who was a Vietnam vet, and his job was to drive down to Monticello and come back with his Volkswagen filled with bagels to be sold on the weekend in Binghamton. But any other time of the week, if you wanted to get a bagel, it was a hard thing to find a decent bagel. So obviously not a problem on Long Island at that point or this point either. So, Binghamton seemed a lot more, a lot less sophisticated than the island at that point. And that may be snobbery from where I grew up, or it may be a reflection of the times. But speaking of the times, you could not get the New York Times easily in Binghamton. You pre order it, but it was not readily available. IG: 27:48 You mean the library did not carry it. LG: 27:49 I do not know if the library got it, but you could not get your own copy. I know that. Whereas, couple years later, when I was in Albany, there were new stands where I could get the times. So, BMW was not the most sophisticated area. But I was not there for-for museums or theater, for example. I was there for the school. So, although I do remember Roberson Gallery, I do not know if it is still there. IG: 28:15 It is. It is. LG: 28:16 That that that plate that I had given to my parents, the one on the bottom there. IG: 28:20 I can see it from-from-from here. Yeah, yeah, it still exists. And there is a wonderful art museum also that you know has sort of astonishingly good, surprisingly good exhibitions. It has, I do not know if you know the photographer, Jay Jaffee, they are all photo, you know, I mean, it is the entire collection. I have them on my iPhone because I sent them to friends. It is New York in the early (19)50s. It is wonderful-wonderful. LG: 28:43 No, I remember going to that gallery specifically to get, kind of, shall I say, a fix of art, to see some art. thinking it was a very accessible size, right? Metropolitan in New York, and it was overwhelming, but we could go to that one and really, get a good night that we could appreciate of the artwork. IG: 29:13 Yeah, I mean their pockets, their pockets of culture, you know, theater, for example, LG: 29:18 And-and there was a lot of music, a lot of music, music, yes, at Harpur, when I was there, both live music, there were some wonderful concerts and a range of artists IG: 29:30 On campus? LG: 29:31 On campus, yes, a range of artists. And then people were always playing music on their phonographs to drink that story. But when I was at Harpur there, Ella Fitzgerald came, IG: 29:44 Oh well. LG: 29:44 Grateful Dead were there Sha Na Na. And then smaller venues, smaller performers like Dave Van Ronk, so there was a wide swath of live music. And, and we went, you know, you would go, you get a ticket for a few bucks and have this wonderful performance. outstanding. So that was part of the social life too. IG: 30:13 That was part of the social Yeah, very much so, and probably greater participation from students then than now. I do not know how many students go to the concerts now, so you mentioned that you earlier that you did not really spend the summers in on campus because it was going there was a tri semester- LG: 30:37 Yes. IG: 30:38 -system, so you return to Long Island during the summer? Did you work? Or did you just kind of kick back? LG: 30:48 One summer, I went to one of local colleges to get some more credits. And the other summers, I worked basically as a waitress for restaurants- LG: 30:58 Right-right-right. LG: 30:59 to get some cash. IG: 31:01 Right-right-right. So, you know, issues of the time, we talked about the war, we talked about the civil rights. Were there any did you notice that there were any minority students on campus? LG: 31:17 Absolutely, absolutely, and it was not segregated. IG: 31:22 No. LG: 31:23 People I considered my group of friends were different backgrounds, different races, um, although, as I said before, it was clearly majority white, downstate students there, a mixed community. IG: 31:47 You know, in on campus, you are probably just a handful. LG: 31:51 I do not, I do not think there were a lot of minorities. IG: 31:54 There were not a lot of- any international students, do you remember? LG: 31:57 I remember one student from, from Iran, IG: 32:01 Oh! LG: 32:02 And but I do not remember students right other places IG: 32:08 Right. Okay, that is fair enough. Okay, so have you been going back to Binghamton for any of the homecoming celebration? LG: 32:19 I have not gone back to Binghamton. In fact, we were discussing before, how is I worked as a consultant for quite a while. At one point I had a client upstate, and we drove by. And I thought, well, I could stop in, but the place in my mind is set in my mind, and it is very much different place now. And I have not gone to homecoming because the people I was friendly with, I have not seen their names listed as they were going. And just to see other people my age, I can do that anywhere. So, I have not gone back to the school. IG: 32:59 I was surprised that there were at least 1000 you know, names. I do not know how many showed up for this particular homecoming. LG: 33:11 Now, I will say, just interrupt you a second. A couple of years ago, I did. We went into the city, met a couple of friends who had been on my dorm floor. They had recently had a lunch with another friend who had come up from Florida. I was not able to make that and I said, but let me know if there was another opportunity we got together, and I have kept contact with one of them, although the other one has gone away. So, it is a more personal self-development, if you will, without going to the campuses. IG: 33:43 Okay, that is fair enough. So, you know you graduated, and could you give us a sense of your career trajectory after-after graduation, you went to library schools, right? LG: 33:58 So, I got my master's two years later from SUNY Albany school library science. And my personal goal was to help people find information. And first job I got was in a not for profit for people with severe physical disabilities. And had a research program. I was helping the research get done and involved in some of the research activities, a wonderful program, and it ended when the federal grant ended, and it was not a good economic time. And I had- IG: 34:32 Was this in New York City, or this is- LG: 34:35 Long Island. I had applied all over the country, and ended up getting something within 10 miles of where I lived. When that grant ended, I looked very hard to find a new job, and could not find anything at that point within the library field, and I was open to other opportunities because I wanted a job, and I got a job in records management with a bank in Brooklyn. And they wanted somebody who knew how to handle information. And it was a small bank that grew dramatically during the decade or so that I was there, not just because I was there, obviously the way it was managed, but when we would acquire another bank, it meant, what information did they have. How were they managing and how did they control it? How did they get rid of the information when it was time? Did they have a role for what to keep and what to get rid of? And so, I was involved in those merger activities. From there, I went to the music industry. So, it was kind of a pun on records management, because they music industry has to deal with records and sound records and informational records. And I did that for about a decade. IG: 35:49 What was the did you work for a company or organization? LG: 35:53 Worked for a Performing Rights Society. So, we had to track when different songs were performed and the audience who had the opportunity to hear them, a Binghamton station has a smaller audience than a New York City Station, and then royalties would be paid out to those performers, specifically the writers and the publishers and the music, rather than the performers, per se. And I did that for, as I said, about a decade, and then segued back into more of a business world and into consulting, where I did work for a company, so I had his salary and benefits and all that, but had different clients and helped them develop or implement records management program. IG: 36:41 And also, the field changed with automation. LG: 36:46 All of all these fields change, whether we are talking library science or records management. For example, you have your primary copies of information the-the way a record is initially developed, and then when it is digitized, it is secondary copy, but it is available to more people, so we would do the same sort of things. I had a client who was a big real estate company headquartered in New York City, and they wanted to take their various leases and legal documents and digitize them to safeguard the originals, but have access to the information. And you know, sure your library is doing similar things with original yes versus secondary copies. IG: 37:31 And when did the records management, you know, industry become automated? Was it in the early (19)90s, or do you rem- LG: 37:43 Again, things evolve. Formats evolve. So, you had microfilm going back decades, and it is a wonderful archival format. People do not like to use, and when I went to the bank in the early (19)80s, we were micro filming right mortgage documents. So, and then that evolved to digitizing documents or the microfilm into searchable databases that are more accessible. So, it is an evolution. IG: 38:18 An evolution. And so, you have been a consultant for how long? And just tell us about your consulting work. LG: 38:29 I consulted for well over a decade. and I got clients. I was not a salesperson. I got clients who were in industries that were heavily regulated or and or heavily litigated. So, most of my clients were interstate, national or sometimes international companies in for example, insurance, pharmacy, financial services. And if they did not manage the information, they would just be keeping too much. That would cost them too much, in terms of litigation, could be researched for too long. So it was too much to handle, and they had to know what to keep, how long to keep it, when to get rid of it, when to track, all right, all of that, what was their reasons for keeping or reasons for getting rid of information which are both based on corporate needs and based on legislative needs. IG: 39:39 So, what kind of where did you consult? What kind of companies or whom did you consult for? You know, what type of businesses? LG: 39:51 Yeah, I am purposely not going to tell you the names [crosstalk] Okay, agreed. So, a lot of banks. A few some insurance companies, health care related information. And each of these industries has different rules and regulations, and from state to state, the rules are different with international clients, and I had clients, both in Canada and Europe. The rules, again, are different and what can be kept and what can be what information should be gotten rid of, and where it can be kept, change from place to place. So, we had a legal team that we worked with to help us come up with the recommendations back to these companies, and then also, I should say, on occasion, I did some pro bono work. I did a program for a local not for profit that did housing for low-income people, because I thought it was the right thing to do, and I had the knowledge and ability and time to do it IG: 40:59 Wonderful. LG: 41:00 So, there was a variety of kinds of clients. From fortune 25 to this company with fewer than 25 people on staff. IG: 41:11 Right-right. So, would you say that you have been happy in your career? LG: 41:20 By and large, I had liked my career. There was certainly ups and downs, but I found it. I found the work I did both challenging and reinforcing. And when I was consulting, I got to do a lot of traveling on somebody else's dime. [crosstalk]I love to travel. And so not only would I get to meet new people, but I get to see new places. And even when it was a city that one would not necessarily pick as a vacation spot, I had a client in Winnipeg, Canada, I had fun there. I met new people; I saw new things. They have a Chinese restaurant at their baseball stadium. It is called, who is on first, terrible [inaudible], but it was funny. It is a good story. So, and I got to meet some wonderful people in other places. So-so, yes, by and large, I liked my career a lot. Yeah. IG: 42:21 Could we ask you how you met your wife? What [crosstalk] more personal? LG: 42:29 More personal. So, I mentioned that I went to work for a bank, after my stint as a librarian, and I was hired to be there, I became their records management officer. I was hired IG: 42:41 This was how many years ago? LG: 42:44 I joined the bank, in 1982. IG: 42:46 Okay. LG: 42:49 And so, I was in charge of the records management program and dealing with all the different branches and corporate offices and corporate functions. And Roberta came in to be one of the trainers, and so we were both in fields or functions. We have to understand the operations that are going on right and communicate the information. And we started working together. She was doing a program for interns, basically coming into the bank and getting them trained. And one of the areas was for them to learn about what information records to keep and how to keep them. So, we had some-some meetings. Eventually started carpooling, because although the bank was in Brooklyn, our-our office were both in Brooklyn, we both lived in Queens at that point. So, we started car IG: 43:40 Where in Queens? LG: 43:42 Near St, John's University. IG: 43:43 Oh, I know. LG: 43:45 So, we started carpooling and-and we became friends, and then it developed into a relationship, and we have celebrated our 32nd anniversary. IG: 43:58 That is wonderful. LG: 43:59 And we have been married three times because when we first got married, we were married in a synagogue. Reformed Jewish movement said we could get married. We were the first gay couple congregants who got married at Temple, but our rabbi had to make a statement it was not a legal marriage because we were not allowed to be legally married. And then we went out to San Francisco. We got legally married. If you recall when the states were doing marriages here and there, several years after, then the third time, we got married in our current synagogue, and it is legal in New York, and now it is Supreme Court decision, legal everywhere. So that is all good. Anything else? [laughter] IG: 44:46 [crosstalk] taking it in, because it is so interesting. So that must have been tremendously satisfying to have the Supreme Court decision allow you to- LG: 44:58 The Supreme Court. at that point, made a decision and said, all Americans can have equal rights. You know, we, of course, had to draw up extra legal documentation. Even just a handful of years ago, we drove down to Florida, and as we were driving through the Carolinas, we were mindful that we had to have documentation in case, God forbid, one of us got sick, to say the other one is to say the other one has legal rights to say what our health care decision should be, because in Carolinas at that point, they were not in agreement. So, but I will tell you another story that I also thought was very satisfying when we got married in temple in 2004 my mother walked us down the aisle, and she was at that point, 91 she was, I think, the oldest congregant in temple at that point, and the potentially the longest-term congregant at that synagogue at that point. And it was such a statement to everybody, not only that the rabbis and the cantor were there for our wedding, but that my mother was-was literally walking us down the aisle and-and loving us both, as she had been at my brother's wedding, my sister's wedding. But this was in the same part of the synagogue where they had each been married. But it was a different thing, and it was a, to me, a huge statement. And it certainly had not always been that way. My mother was-was certainly very loving and supportive, and the three of us were wonderful friends, Roberta and my mom and I, but that turned evolution also so, so I am laughing because Roberta is doing some show and tell that was-was at our wedding, and that is my mom in the middle. And we decided to-to have these wonderful hand painted jackets that were just-just we are here. This is a wonderful statement, and it was a wonderful event, and um- IG: 47:20 What do you think are the most important qualities to really weather an evolution in your lifetime? I mean patience, of course, but- LG: 47:34 I have a sense of humor, yeah, and I also am tenacious, so you can just lie down. Do not worry. So-so although I can concurrently keep the long-term view in mind and the immediate details in mind, itis a skill I used in and honed in business. What is the end goal of where I want to be, but what are the steps I have to take to get there now, it is something that I do now in my volunteer work, approving expenses through the budget now, but also saying, “Where do we want to be in five years and 10 years?” So it is that kind of view, and I do think having patience and having a sense of humor are very good skills to help accomplish anything and to keep a perspective, because there are days that get very distressing with-with different news items that come along with different things we hear about. But progress, I think, is on a positive bend, a positive arc, that things are better for people. We were sitting at Temple last Friday, and one of the women we know came up to tell us that her daughter has a new girlfriend. And she was very happy to tell us that, and she was telling everybody sitting at our table a dozen or so people, but this is something that would not have happened a decade or two or three or more ago. IG: 49:07 No, this is, I think, that this is very inspired advice for you know, current students, for example, listening or, you know, to these conversations. What advice would you give to, you know, I mean, students in the future will be very different. But you know, what are, what are some of the lights you have given you know, you have given advice right now of how to live through an evolution of change. What other, what other sort of, you know, career advice, for example, would you give a young person listening to this conversation? LG: 49:51 One of the thoughts I had when you were speaking was, I am not sure that the students are different, per se. Uh, students are in school because they want to learn. IG: 49:57 Yes. LG: 49:58 And they want to they are learning because they want to end up going somewhere. IG: 50:06 Yeah, they may have different- LG: 50:06 Different technologies, you know. So where is, where is? I went to class with pen and ink to-to take notes. Very different technology. It is very- IG: 50:08 But I think also the economy dictates the type of focus that a student has, because when I was going to school, I imagined that I could have a career in liberal arts. Now, students are much more sort of professional minded and so but that is another conversation. LG: 50:38 Yeah, different career paths and different opportunities based on things we said, like feminism. When I was in school, most lawyers, most people going to law school, were men. Ditto medical school. Now the numbers have changed. Same with nursing school, most of them were women. Now there is good representation, very different numbers. I personally, I think having a big picture view of where you want to be going is important. Being willing to change that picture, is important. Being tenacious little bumps in the road, even if they seem big at this point, right, can generally be surmounted or walked around, gotten around one way or another. I do not feel old enough to be giving sage advice, but experience tells me that tenacity is really important. Wanting to keep going is really important. Not letting other people stop you is really important. Continuing to learn is really important, continuing to grow, continuing to do things, continuing to be open to new things, is important. And I think that is that is key tools in anybody's toolkit for a career or for evolving into a better citizen, a better person. IG: 52:13 This has been very lovely and-and moving. LG: 52:18 Thank you. IG: 52:19 Any concluding remarks? LG: 52:24 Well, you came. You came. You contacted me. You came from Binghamton. I have to tell you that I consider Harpur and Binghamton to have been a wildly important time of my life. And I was not a great student. I was not an A level student, when I was there, I was an okay. I was good student. I was an average student, I think. But what I learned was that I could, not only did I learn how to learn which is more important than little facts, I knew how to get information when I needed it, but I learned that I could manage with the best and the brightest. I learned that in an environment with phenomenally intelligent, witty, wonderful other people, I could hold my own, and that is a life skill that when I got to college I did not have, and it certainly has served me well, and so I think that is a good concluding remark. IG: 53:28 That is wonderful. Thank you very much. LG: 53:32 Thank you. IG: 53:32 Thank you. LG: 53:33 I have enjoyed this. IG: 53:34 I have to- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Lenore Ruth Greenberg Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Greenberg, Lenore ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource After earning her degree at Binghamton, Lenore earned a master’s degree in library sciences from SUNY Albany. She worked in records management at numerous companies, including Iron Mountain LLC. She was also adjunct professor of records management at Nassau Community College in Garden City, NY. Partners since 1985, Ms. Greenberg and her wife Ms. Roberta Treacy were early champions of marriage equality. They met while working at Anchor Savings Bank in Brooklyn. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-18 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Lenore Greenberg.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-10-18 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 53:35 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/92bb28272932ead5dd449c523159ebf3.mp3 86a679d63ff15addb34aab0c12acd3b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Oral Histories Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories from 1960s Binghamton Alumni Description An account of the resource In 2019, Binghamton University Libraries completed a mission to collect oral interviews from 1960s alumni as a means to preserve memories of campus life. The resulting 47 tales are a retrospective of social, professional and personal experiences with the commonality of Harpur College. Some stories tell of humble beginnings, others discuss the formation of friendships; each provides insight into a moment in our community's rich history. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Irene Gashurov Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-2018 Relation A related resource <a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/browse?collection=18">McKiernan Interviews : 60's collection of Oral Histories</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2018-10-17 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Irene Gashurov Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Henry S. Flax Year of Graduation 1971 Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Henry has held many roles in higher education, generation of new business, client service, quality control and cost management. These include positions as Associate Dean of Enrollment Management and Student Development at LaGuardia Community College; Associate Dean of Student Affairs at NYU; as well as positions at SUNY Downstate Medical Center and Hunter College, CUNY. His EdD is from Teachers College at Columbia Universtiy. He has served as sector head for the SUNY University Faculty Senate for the Health Science Centers. Keywords Harpur College – Sixties alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in higher education; Harpur College – Alumni from New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Brooklyn; Harpur College – LGBTQ Alumni Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Subject LCSH Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium Alumni Interviews Interview with: Henry S. Flax Interviewed by: Irene Gashurov Transcriber: Oral History Lab Date of interview: 17 October 2018 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) IG: 00:01 Okay. So, this is, um, Wednesday, October 17, 2018, and I am here, Irene Gashurov is here with Dr Henry Flax. So, Dr. Flax, perhaps you could tell us where you [inaudible] HF: 00:28 I was- IG: 00:29 First of all, tell us where we are. HF: 00:31 Okay. We are in Binghamton, New York, being recorded at the DoubleTree Hilton. Again, my name is Henry Flax. I was born in Brooklyn, but grew up in Queens, New York, the bell rose section. After attending Martin Van Buren high school, I enrolled at Harpur College, SUNY Binghamton. IG: 00:55 Okay, we are getting ahead of ourselves. So, who were your parents? Who- what did they do? HF: 01:05 My father was an air traffic controller and rose to be Deputy Chief at LaGuardia tower, as well as working at John F. Kennedy Airport and other airports prior to that, my mother was the first in her family to earn a master's degree from Columbia University, but during most of my life was a housewife and mother. IG: 01:35 So did your father go to college? Was he- HF: 01:39 He did. He was a graduate of City College. IG: 01:41 I see, I see. So-so probably, what were the expectations of you? Were you the only child? Or did you know- HF: 01:52 No, I am the third of three sons. My oldest brother went to what is now City University, first to City College, then to Baruch. My middle brother started at Columbia as an undergraduate and did graduate work at both CUNY and Cal at Berkeley. And I began at Harpur College and went to Columbia for my master's and doctorate. IG: 02:19 In- at Teachers College? HF: 02:24 Yes. IG: 02:25 So, what-what were some of the reasons that you went to Harpur College? HF: 02:36 I was a relatively young high school graduate having skipped a grade in junior high school, and I thought it would be good for my emotional development to get away from home. Harpur seemed to offer a small enough campus environment that I would not be lost but a very high-quality academic reputation, which attracted me. I had looked at other SUNY schools, and it seemed to be the right mix of academic rigor and small college environment. IG: 03:15 And just remind us what was the year that you entered Harpur? HF: 03:23 Started with the incoming class fall, 1967. IG: 03:29 1967 so what were, what was the reputation of Harpur in (19)67? HF: 03:40 Very strong academic quality. The college billed itself as the quote public Swarthmore to incoming students. I cannot remember whether that was part of the admissions campaign literature, but that was certainly what it was known as- IG: 04:00 Really? So just remind us what the reputation of Swarthmore was at the time. I mean, it is a very good school, but that is all I know of it. HF: 04:14 High quality liberal arts, small private college on the main line outside Philadelphia. IG: 04:23 Thank you. So, what were some of the first impressions that you had of, I mean, you are a city kid come to, you know, the boondocks in the middle of nowhere. So, what-what-what were some of the impressions that [inaudible] Harpur had? HF: 04:39 I, uh, it did have the small college feel at the time, there were only two completed residential colleges. Dickinson and Newing. Hinman had just opened two residence halls, and that was it for. For on campus housing, it was very easy to get to know almost everyone in the collegiate setting. I did live on campus, so had very little interaction with the town that came later through (19)68 from probably 1968 to 1970 when there were peace marches that went through Binghamton and Johnson City, and you really got to see the difference between, quote, town and gown at that time, it certainly was a different experience than living in New York City, but I focused very strongly on my coursework in the fall, and so that was my primary goal, maintaining grades and getting used to the academic rigor of college. IG: 05:57 So did you have a sense of what you know you would like to learn here. Did you have a career in mind? Or do you have, did you have a subject that you wanted to pursue or? HF: 06:10 When I entered, I planned to major in history, which, at the time you majored in social sciences, there probably were not enough courses to be strictly a history major, and the goal would have been to be a history teacher in high school. IG: 06:29 So, you said that the differences between town and gown were striking. Did this- did this include the student community? Did you feel that there were differences in world views approaches between the city kids and from upstate New York, the students from upstate New York, the students from upstate New York? HF: 06:58 Certainly, the students from downstate metropolitan area, Long Island Westchester and New York City tended to be more cynical. Many of them had been accepted to Ivy League schools or the quote, private Swarthmore. But 1967 was pre federal financial aid, and so many of them could not afford those schools, and Harpur was their second or their safe school, as it were, so there was a disjointed approach to learning, where many of the downstate students felt they should be, somewhere even more rigorous than Harpur was at the time, and the upstate students and some of us from downstate also felt we were glad to be there, IG: 07:58 But I mean in terms of interacting with these students. Did you make friends from upstate population, or were your friends mostly like yourself, city kids? HF: 08:12 No, when I arrived, I was one of 32 students who came from Van Buren High School. We were a huge contingent. We quickly grew apart over our first and second semesters, and I made friends with people from Rochester, man who became my roommate for two more years, and then people from towns as small as Montour Falls. So, it was a very diverse experience, a good learning experience about people who came from other backgrounds in upstate New York and small towns way out on Long Island, Suffolk County. IG: 08:53 So, what did they make of you? I mean, you collectively from Van Buren, and what did you collectively Van Buren make of them? I mean in generalities, and we know that there are individuals and exceptions, but just impressions. HF: 09:16 I think the Van Buren people because we sat on the city line. We all lived within New York City Limits, but it was a very suburban part of Queens, so we were already bifurcated in terms of our thinking. Kids from Brooklyn did not think we were city people and people from Nassau and Suffolk only thought we were city people. So, it was an interesting- IG: 09:41 That is so true. I remember. HF: 09:43 It was sort of an interesting approach, little schizophrenic for us. IG: 09:50 Yes, and that is so true that I am glad that you reminded me, because that is that really was the thing. Um, so-so could you just describe a little bit of what the campus looked like at the time? HF: 10:13 The overwhelming aspect was mud. There was a tremendous amount of construction going on. So, the Dickinson area, the- what I guess is now the peace quad was pretty much finished, but Hinman was still being built. Science buildings were being built. The fine arts building was being expanded. The museum was being created. So, as I say, it was a lot of mud. [laughs] IG: 10:49 And where were your classes held? HF: 10:53 Freshman Litton camp was actually held in seminar rooms in Chenango Hall. They cleared the first floor, one of the first-floor wings of residence rooms and made them into seminar rooms in an attempt to break down the large lecture class. IG: 11:13 Do you mind if we pause because- Okay, we are back with Dr. Flax. So, you were telling us about the campus and what it looked like when you when you arrived, and your first impressions. How do you feel that it has I mean, it has changed tremendously, but what are some of the notable changes that you are most struck by when you see Binghamton campus now? HF: 11:50 Now, I had not been back on campus for many-many years and was actually here last April to attend a performance at Tri Cities Opera with another alum who maintained a much closer connection to Binghamton, both the city and the campus, than I had over the years. We had time before the performance and drove onto campus, and the most striking thing to me was the loss of Newing College, the fact that I had lived for two years in Chenango Hall and then two years in Delaware Hall. And what is on the footprint of Delaware Hall is a much, much larger building. I think all the names have now been changed to Old O'Connor or Old Johnson, and now what had been Newing College names are all old Dickinson College names seems like a lack of creativity to me, and one of the highlights of my time as a student was the unbelievable creativity on the campus. So, I am a little disappointed in that. IG: 13:09 Tell us about that. Tell us about the unbelievable creativity on campus. HF: 13:17 It was a group of very strong faculty, young faculty in general, who had come from other places but were determined to create an academic community, and as I say, very strong students who were looking for small college liberal arts environment. I think Binghamton, at that point, had a very strong reputation in the humanities, little less so in the social sciences. If you were interested in the sciences, you generally went to Stony Brook. If you were looking at the four university centers, Albany was sort of late to the game and was still considered a teacher's college that was just becoming a university center, and Buffalo was very large and in the process of moving from downtown out to Amherst. So very different experience. But students really took control of their lives, their social activities, a very strong student government, a strong radio station. I became involved in something called the student center board, which ran the student activities on campus, which were largely student run rather than staff run. IG: 14:49 So how did you get involved in the student board and what-what role did you have? HF: 14:54 I had actually started as a dorm rep. To Student Government, and then in (19)68 as things got crazy all over higher ed in this country, thought I had a better niche with the student activities area. What initially got me interested was that the student center board ran busses to all the metropolitan areas at holiday time. So, for Thanksgiving or for Christmas, you did not have to come into Downtown Binghamton to take a Greyhound or a Trailways bus. The busses were brought on campus, and I worked very closely with other students to organize busses that made sense in terms of filling them to capacity and then having them stop in particular areas. So if you lived in Yonkers and I lived in Queens, there might have been enough people from Yonkers and Queens to put together a bus that went to the raceway into Jamaica, or maybe there were enough from Nassau and Queens that went to Jamaica and Roosevelt field, but we ran full busses, and we made considerable amount of money. IG: 16:15 So, it was kind of similar to what your father was doing, but on the ground, right HF: 16:19 [laughs] in a way, I suppose, [laughter] he brought them in, I sent them out. [laughter] IG: 16:32 So, you know, so you were involved in this. So, was it part of your stipend? Was it an internship or work study program, or something that you- HF: 16:45 There were no internships at that time. I did it as a volunteer. You would get a free bus. If you were a bus captain, you got a free ride. That was the incentive. IG: 16:55 I see, I see. HF: 16:56 And you just had to make sure that you loaded the right number of people and the right names on the bus collected their money, or that was done beforehand, actually. So, I started as a bus captain, became Chairman of the Transportation Committee, did a few other jobs, and then chaired the student center board, probably my senior year, IG: 17:16 In your senior year. And you mentioned (19)68 and (19)68 was such a time of ferment at American universities, but all over the world, you know, there were, it was a time of student rebellions and rethinking how and retain rethinking the world. And how did you experience 1968 politically at Harpur College? HF: 17:48 I think it was the beginning of a whole radicalization of the campus. You had, as I said, this sort of cynical, unhappy group on campus to begin with. But fall of 19)67 was very traditional. I remember thinking as I was driving up here today, what was my first you know, week or month like. And I remember something as absurd now when you think back that our resident assistants or dorm leaders or whatever they were called at the time, and we were in men's dorms and women's dorms, so they organized a quote, unquote panty raid where, you know, freshmen men ran around screaming, Silk-silk," and hoping that some woman would throw her bra out. It was really juvenile and but very traditional, sort of early (19)60s campus culture. And then in (19)68 things sort of got blown away. People had friends at Columbia because a lot of us came from New York City. We knew people from our graduating classes who had enrolled there, and of course, that was a major upheaval, where the student strike and the takeover of Low Library really took East Coast students into where the Berkeley Free Speech Movement had been five years before- IG: 19:22 But that is on the Columbia campus. How did it resonate to Harpur? What was going on at Harpur in 1968 how were you informed by those you know, feelings and ideas of students from the East Coast? HF: 19:40 People started questioning authority. There were all sorts of curfew rules. Women had much stricter curfews than male students. If you had a woman in your room, you had to put a book in the door, privacy, all of those things. Things were really washed away in a time of ferment, the Dean of Students was, I guess, removed and became dean of the summer school. He was just thrust out because he was a very traditional figure who could only think in very traditional ways. So, there was a certain amount of upheaval among the administration with students, I think less so with faculty, but more questioning of curricula, student course and teacher evaluation started to come in that was unheard of prior to (19)68 and (19)69 and (19)70. IG: 20:45 But at a place like Harpur College, where you- did you feel that you had more of that, you were more, not on equal footing, but you had certainly more access to the faculty than you would have elsewhere, and somehow that broke the barriers down. And I- HF: 21:07 Some faculty were very receptive to the changes, I think, particularly again, in the humanities, little less so in the social sciences, the hard sciences tended to be the most conservative as they traditionally are. IG: 21:21 So, what kind of things you know, what kind of things were spoken of about the cultural climate, the change in cultural climate. HF: 21:32 Uh, ending-ending curfew Hinman was, quote, unquote, the self-regulated dormitories. So, there were no curfew rules. Students were expected to enforce their own codes of behavior, which set a tone for the other campus, campus units that said, “Well, why not us? "You know, just because they are living in brand new housing and it is only typically open to upper classmen. There are upperclassmen in Dickinson, there are upperclassmen in Newing, so it really threw everything on the table to be discussed in terms of how things were done--student activities. It is not just going to be a traditional dance or a social or a mixer. Certainly, the influence of rock music had a major change the drug culture to a lesser degree. IG: 22:34 And where were you at all of this? Did you welcome these changes? Were you excited about them? HF: 22:42 I think in (19)68 at one point, there was a there used to be something called the Esplanade, which connected Dickinson and the Student Union. It was a little bridge, but that was sort of the focal point for student speakers and people congregated around I remember feeling at one point in either (19)68 or (19)69 when everybody went across and sort of stormed the administration building. They were going to confront the powers that be. It was very frightening to me. I did not quite accept it or understand it. IG: 23:22 You were young. You were very young. HF: 23:26 I was young, but I was also very naive. I was young emotionally as well as you were younger than most freshmen, and it took me a while to sort of embrace that change. IG: 23:40 Yeah, I could see that. I mean, not of you, but I could see actually, even of myself, you know, in such a circumstance. So, what were, you know, what were we have not spoken about your classes at all, and your interaction with your student, fellow students, your faculty, just tell us some highlights from really kind of mind-altering type of classes that you had with If faculty really left a big impression on you. HF: 24:25 Yes, there were some in English, but I think the greatest impact was in the art department and art history. John Connolly taught the survey course, 100 or 101, I cannot remember the number right now, and that I took in my sophomore year as an elective or to fill a humanities requirement. But that really excited me. And then there was a young instructor. Lawrence McGuinness, who was teaching architecture courses, really architectural history, and that really became my love. I was very sorry I either did not change majors or pursue architectural history on the graduate level. I think in some ways, I did very well academically. I really enjoyed the subject--remained a member of the Society of architectural historians to this day. IG: 25:28 What-what- HF: 25:29 It is purely avocational. IG: 25:31 What period especially interested you? What? HF: 25:36 Oh, it has changed over the years. IG: 25:37 It has changed over but here, when you were at Harpur, what did you what did you get excited about? What-what- HF: 25:46 Probably the year 1200 was very exciting, because it was a move from Romanesque to Gothic, and it was an individual style that came out, something like the Bury St Edmunds crosses is a real epitomy of high year, 1200 style art nor and you see it in architecture as well. But since then, I have developed a real fondness for Art Deco and Art Nouveau architecture. How did you view the IG: 26:24 How did you view the architecture? The- did you have slides? Or how did you see that in the classroom? HF: 26:33 All Slides and then papers had to be done outside. So, I think my first architecture paper was on the Philadelphia Museum of Art, Parkway Museum. So, I literally went to Philadelphia and spent a weekend photographing the exterior, the interior and then writing up the paper. IG: 27:01 So-so-so architecture have a great impact. What, how did you how did you spend your free time? You did this student center. You were invested in your studies. How did you spend? How did you relax with your friends. HF: 27:22 Was also very involved in the governance of Newing College, working with the master of the college and with the student leadership there, that was very fulfilling. HF: 27:39 Had tried out probably junior and senior years, and I think certainly in terms of academics, we were interested in the whole ecology movement and actually got a faculty member hired to teach an ecology course through Newing College. IG: 27:40 Which year [inaudible] HF: 27:54 Ecology, of what kind of the environment? HF: 28:05 Environmental ecology, yeah. IG: 28:08 Um, and what got you interested in that? HF: 28:15 I think just conservation, and probably Rachel Carson's books. But there were other people who were interested, and we thought, well, you know, there is funding. Why do not we try to support the faculty line to, you know, put our money where our mouth is. IG: 28:33 And of course, during that time, there really was little notion of the environment, you know, you see, this was the era of polymers, of plastics and disposable culture and disposable things, right? So that is very interesting. What-what were some of the sort of, you know, political and social discussions that you would have with your student, with your fellow students, if- HF: 29:05 Politically it was certainly about the escalation of the Vietnam War. And I guess the fact that Lyndon Johnson did not run for a second term of office, Eugene McCarthy was a very popular candidate on campus, the election of Richard Nixon, which was such a setback for most students. And, you know, starting in (19)68 and really, I would say, almost ending in May of 1970 with the deaths at Kent State. This was an almost unbelievable shock to students at Harpur that the police could come on a campus and shoot you. And this really brought things home. And I said, “To feel like there was a very traditional beginning to my college career,” this spike in radicalism, and then my senior year, almost a return. Clearly a reformulated campus, things had changed, but a numbed campus frightened campus that, if it could happen there, could it happen here. IG: 30:27 That is, that is really that is really interesting, that is really interesting. So it was, it was Kent State. It was not, it was not, you know, lark, it was Kent State. Were there police aggression elsewhere at universities? HF: 30:46 Yes, Jackson, state in Mississippi, which was actually a sister school to Harpur, and I cannot remember what the relationship was, there was a man named Jack Sperling who had something to do with the two campuses, but there were deaths at Jackson State as well as Kent State. But I think again, Kent State, the deaths were white students. It was the National Guard being brought on campus, very similar to what happened at Columbia, when the New York City Police were called on campus and students were dragged out of Low Library. IG: 31:28 So, but it is also interesting that you said that there was sort of, you know, this spike to radicalism, and then coming down, maybe, you know, understanding. But yet there was a spike. So, it was mind changing, you know, it changed you in some way. HF: 31:44 Oh, absolutely. IG: 31:44 Yeah, absolutely, so-so, you know, after-after Harpur College, what happened to you? HF: 31:53 I thought I would go into architectural history, and I actually thought I would enroll in the program at Columbia. And one bit of bad advice I got was, and I do not know why, but that I was too good for the Columbia program, and the only place I should go was Harvard, and I was ready to go back to New York City at that point. And I did not get very good career counseling or advising, certainly not good academic advising. And I ended up just making the decision with-with one person on staff who said, "Well, you know, what do you do apart from history?" Because there are no jobs in history. So, I thought, well, I am very involved in Student Activities and student life on campus. There are clearly staff people here who do that. How do they get into it? So, I ended up enrolling in master's program at Columbia in Student Affairs Administration, and that got me back to New York City, where I wanted to be for personal reasons, and sort of kept me in a university environment, which I want. IG: 33:10 Right-right-right. So, what you arrived at Columbia in? HF: 33:17 Fall of (19)72. IG: 33:19 In fall of (19)72, in fall of (19)72. So-so you had, you know, you had, and so just give us a- you know- HF: 33:32 No, I am sorry, fall of (19)71. I graduated in (19)71 I finished my master's in spring of (19)72. IG: 33:39 So just give me a sense a career trajectory. So, you finished this master's from Teachers College and-and then what-what did you do? HF: 33:51 I ended up getting a job at Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, which is another unit of SUNY. IG: 33:57 Right. Yes, I know. HF: 33:58 And started as night manager in the student center, and then was promoted to Assistant Director for activities, and I also worked as head resident in one of the residence halls there, and then felt there was no upward mobility in that job, so moved on to associate director of the Student Union at the college at New Paltz, so another SUNY school, but that was very tough to be a young single person in a very small town. I remember going out one night because Main Street in New Paltz, at least at that time, was just loaded with college bars, and I thought, I do not want to sit in this apartment. I cannot ride another 30 miles on my bicycle tonight. I need a drink. And the next morning, I kept having student after student come into the Union and say, "Oh, we heard you were at McGuinness last night." So, I realized that was just not going to work for me. IG: 34:59 So, I imagine that you left. HF: 35:02 I left, and I became Director of Student Services at a college in New Jersey [crosstalk] at that time, it was called Jersey City State College. It is now New Jersey City University in Jersey City. So, it gave me the opportunity to live in Manhattan and commute right out, which was nice having a reverse commute and a much larger job than the one I had in New Paltz with significant budgetary and personnel responsibilities, which I wanted. IG: 35:34 So, you worked there for? HF: 35:37 I was in Jersey City for 11 years, and then I got a phone call from one of my former students who was working for a marketing firm in Manhattan, and she said, "We have an opening for a vice president at my company. Would you be interested in applying?" And I said, you know, I guess I laughed, and said, "I have absolutely no qualifications for that. I have never worked in business." And she said, "It is, it is just the same as what you do at the college. You just use different terms. It is customer service, not student service. You work with budgets; you work with personnel. This job would be Vice President for Administration of the company; you could certainly do all of those things." IG: 36:25 Wow. HF: 36:25 And I threw my hat in the ring and subsequently got the job. IG: 36:30 So what year was this? HF: 36:33 This was 1988. IG: 36:35 1988 and you were living where in? HF: 36:40 At that time, I was living in Greenwich Village, so it was very nice. It allowed me to sell my car immediately and not deal with alternate side of the street parking. I could walk to work on a good day, but on a very short subway ride, and I could finally get decent meals at lunch instead of a college cafeteria. IG: 37:03 Also, you know, it is always very interesting to me when an academic makes a change over to industry to working for private industry. So, what was that shift like, what skills did you bring? I mean, obviously you know your administrative skills and what were some of the differences that you found? HF: 37:31 I think the reason I was hired was to do staff training and provide a much better and deeper level of customer service for the firm's clients. What happened was I got caught up in account work and did less and less training and more and more major account supervision. The first year, it was all fascinating to me, because it was all new. And then I realized by my second year that the only real criterion for success was, what was your bottom line this quarter? How will you exceed it the next quarter? And by the third year, I realized, if that was all there was, I was going to go crazy. And I-I thought about my life and who I was, and I thought what I liked about working in academia was a group that thought about other things beside the bottom line and allowed you to explore and self-explore and really go in different avenues and directions, even though you were doing basically administrative work. And so, after three years, I left and went to- IG: 38:49 That is an excellent way, you know, the thoughts are so resonant and so interesting. I am sorry- [laughter] HF: 39:00 But then I did return to higher education as director of Counseling and Student Services at New York University, which was the best of all at the time, because it was a walk to work. IG: 39:12 So, you measure the, you know, the value of an employer by how- HF: 39:20 Proximity to my home. IG: 39:21 Yeah, exactly. I understand. So, what were the years that you were in at NYU? HF: 39:30 1991 through 1997. IG: 39:33 Right. Could you also go to doctorate somewhere along the way? HF: 39:37 I had started my doctoral work when I was in Jersey City and then stopped out when I went to work in business, because it made no sense. But when I went back to NYU, I picked up the doctoral work again at Columbia. I had thought of transferring to NYU, but they had really arcane academic regulations. And although I worked very closely with the Academic Dean in the School of Education, his-his advice was, "We are not going to change our rules. You would do better to get your degree from Columbia. Take as many free courses here as they will let you with tuition remission." IG: 40:21 Right. Well, at least, at least they were truthful, right? HF: 40:23 He was, he was a wonderful advisor. And my biggest problems were with the registrar at Teachers College, but we worked through them, and I earned my degree subsequently. IG: 40:36 And so, what did you specialize in? What did you what was your focus? The focus of your dissertation. What was it on? HF: 40:44 I was looking at community college transfer counselors and their role in moving students from community colleges into four-year institutions. IG: 40:55 That is very relevant to us. HF: 40:59 So, I had again, talked to this academic dean at NYU, and he said, you know, everybody looks at college presidents, everybody looks at students. Nobody ever looks at the people who do the work in the middle. And he said, I think if you worked on a subject like this, you would be working with four-year schools, you would be working with two-year schools, you would be working with staff members. I think it would be a very rich study. And so, it was actually partially quantitative, but largely qualitative. And I think it was a very rich study, and a lot came out in terms of the differences between transfer advising and transfer counseling. And the success that these individuals had moving students who in many cases had very low self-esteem into schools like NYU that they never thought they could ever approach much less enroll in. IG: 42:00 Right-right. So, what is the, what is the role of the advisor who is helping such a student? HF: 42:09 I think they looked at their jobs as the information dissemination piece, was the transfer, advising the mechanics, how to do it, what courses to take that would transfer based on their major requirements, their academic interests, the counseling piece was for them, the more exciting piece of getting students with generally low self-esteem or very limited vision of their opportunities in the world. To say, “Yes, I can do this, even though my family has told me a woman should only be a secretary and that a college education is a waste," I was able to tell this woman, "No, you are so bright and you are so motivated, you can, you can do more than be someone's assistant." IG: 43:11 So-so where did you have an opportunity that is really wonderful. So, where did you have an opportunity to implement- HF: 43:19 The stuff? IG: 43:20 The study. HF: 43:24 NYU has a large program called the Community College Transfer Opportunity Program, and that I used their feeder schools for my qualitative interviews, as well as some other campuses, but it was very interesting to see, and I think that model has been adopted around the nation now. IG: 43:49 Oh, fantastic. S HF: 43:52 o it has been, it was very-very productive and very rewarding. I subsequently could not move up at NYU with the doctorate, and I did want a deanship. So interestingly enough, I ended up going back to downstate in 1998 as Associate Dean of Student Affairs. IG: 44:12 Interesting. HF: 44:14 So handled admissions, financial aid, the registrar international student advising, and disabled student advising. IG: 44:23 Fantastic. That is, that is fantastic. And I know that downstate produces, somebody told me the most number of medical graduates in the country. Is that true? HF: 44:36 Not sure, in the country, certainly in New York state. HF: 44:37 New York State, certainly, New York State. HF: 44:40 Absolutely New York State. It is the largest graduating class. IG: 44:44 And so and so. how long were you there? HF: 44:47 I stayed from (19)98 to 2004. And then I became associate dean for Enrollment Management and Student Development at LaGuardia Community College, which is part of CUNY. IG: 45:02 Which such an innovative community college, it is really kind of the flagship of all community colleges. So, what role did you have to make it that way? HF: 45:13 The major thing I did was the college had made a decision that, instead of having siloed admissions, financial aid, registrar and advising offices, they would create an Enrollment Services Center. So, I came on board at the beginning of the construction. I had no input in the original design, but my role was, really, how do you meld four very disparate offices that have been treated very disparately, quite frankly, by the administration, into one harmonious team. And we did some very innovative personnel changes and programs to make it happen, and opened a beautiful, 25,000 square foot facility with a combination of generalists and specialists to serve students. We put in an electronic database so that students did not have to randomly be called by mistake or stand in line, they were able to sit in a very comfortable lounge setting similar to what we were sitting in right now, and then have their names called over a loud speaker when it was their turn, so they could be doing other things while waiting. But we tried with the electronic database, we were able to assess what we were doing and how we were doing it. So initially we realized we were doing some very basic financial aid work for students that if we built a computer lab and had people serving as, I guess, mentors, they could sit at a computer and learn to do it themselves, filling out FAFSAs, updating forms. And so, we took a lot of that traffic out of the Enrollment Services Center by building an adjacent computer lab, and at check in finding out, okay, you need to see the registrar. This is a complex issue. You need a specialist. You need to drop and add a course. You can do that with a generalist. You have a financial aid inquiry that can go to the computer lab. Someone will teach you how to do that. And so, it helped empower students to take care of their own enrollment services business and it-it provided better service and avoided staff burnout from having to answer the same repetitive questions, [crosstalk] literally-literally. IG: 47:51 I am sure. And since so much of the population at LaGuardia are immigrants, and you know, first generation, they need that extra hand holding when approaching bureaucracy of any kind. I think it is- HF: 48:08 Absolutely. IG: 48:09 -fear inspiring so. HF: 48:13 And then finally, I, I did some work at Hunter on a biotechnology project. IG: 48:19 Wow. HF: 48:19 And then returned to SUNY, downstate in my final act as the coordinator for the residency program in the Department of Pathology. And that got me back on the University Faculty Senate, which brings me to Binghamton today. I am no longer a senator, since I retired at the end of 2016 but this past June, I was selected to be the next parliamentarian for the body starting in June of 2019. IG: 48:55 At downstate, or here? HF: 48:57 At SUNY wide. SUNY wide. IG: 48:59 SUNY, tremendous. So, tell us about this new role. So very big role. HF: 49:05 The parliamentarian advises the President of the University Faculty Senate. And you may know the most recent immediate past president, Pete Neffer, who was a geology faculty member at Binghamton, he served two terms as president of faculty senate statewide and parliamentarian guides the president, not only in terms of the rules and regulations of the meetings, in terms of the bylaws and Robert's Rules of Order, but as sort of a senior advisor to the body the parliamentarian particularly helps with the Governance Committee and with the campuses any questions that come up about bylaws or procedures or confidential issues that they do not want to share on their own campuses, the parliamentarian serves in that role as well. IG: 50:02 So, you are it is almost as though you are an attorney, you know, but you are advising them about a different set of laws. HF: 50:09 Right. So, if someone asked me about Binghamton's bylaws, I would not be familiar with them. First thing I would have to do is send me a copy of your bylaws or point me to your website. So that I can see what the situation is. Downstate Medical Center, I helped rewrite the bylaws, so I am far more familiar with my own former campus’s bylaws. IG: 50:33 So, what kind of issues do you resolve? What kind of issues come to your desk? HF: 50:39 Right now, well, I am I am in my quote, unquote training year or parliamentarian elect, there still is a parliamentarian and she has done this job for seven years and is ready to step down. So right now I am shadowing her, but she has had some issues on campuses where people have come to her for consultation about differences between administrative leadership and faculty governance leadership, and how would she suggest they be solved so she has had a hand in that, as well as when it has to escalate to a formal consultation or visitation procedure. Certainly, we both. I have been sitting on the Governance Committee for several years. Last year, we started trying to do what we thought was a minor update to the bylaws, and as we looked at them, we realized does not work anymore the way it is constructed, and so it has become a wholesale reorganization and rethinking of the bylaws. I think the role of the faculty senate president has grown tremendously since he or she became a member of the Board of Trustees. And so, they do as much probably, as a trustee as they do as faculty senate president, which meant, okay, we need to expand the role of the vice president. That cannot just be something somebody does out of their pocket. That is a real position that has to do a lot of coverage for the President. So, what is the appropriate role the committee tangled with, okay, should the President be seen as a college president or university president, sort of being the outside face of the organization, and the Vice President taking on a provost role, sort of running the committees and the sectors. So, I think we have come up with a good first draft. It is actually going to be unveiled to the Senate Friday morning, so we will see how well it is received. But I think it is going to go through several iterations before the existing bylaws become some-some new set of bylaws. IG: 53:05 So, your meeting- what is the what is the group consist of you and- HF: 53:11 University Faculty Senate or the Governance Committee. The university faculty senate is represent-represent faculty and staff representation from all 29 state operated campuses and system administration. So, there are a portion of the representation is apportioned by number of faculty and staff on campuses. So down state has four senators because it has a very large professional staff, based on the hospital. Morrisville might have one senator, much smaller campus. Binghamton, I think, also has four as a university center, large faculty and professional staff, and they really deal with issues of governance system wide, but the Senate is broken into what are known as sectors. So, the four University Centers comprise a sector, the five academic medical centers comprise a sector, and they meet during the plenaries to discuss issues that are really specific to those sectors. So, in 2011 when down state was encouraged by then Governor Patterson to purchase Long Island College Hospital. It not only brought down state to fiscal ruin but really endangered the entire system. It was a ridiculous decision, but, you know, people were not going to argue with the governor. That became a major focus of not only the academic health science sector, but issues for faculty senate at large, and because we had our President sitting as a trustee, there was a lot of interaction between the Senate, the sector, and the Board of Trustees. We were meeting with the Chair of the trustee’s academic health science sector as the academic medical sector, because we were afraid; they were not getting a full picture of what this meant to a campus. So, there was a lot of it was a good communications vehicle. IG: 55:40 I see. HF: 55:40 Things do not always percolate up through the Chancellery as they should, and it is very good to have faculty and professional staff who are on the ground, invested in their campuses, who are willing to do this volunteer service. IG: 55:57 So, let us connect it back to Harpur and you know the, what is the do you- I mean, did you come from a liberal minded household? Because did you come from, you know, a household that that kind of prepared you for this type of thinking and outlook. I mean, because you are so sort of, you know, progressive and yet, and yet, you know, you have so much knowledge and struck knowledge of regulations and how the system works. And I mean, where-where did the-the first sort of seedlings for-for this type of mindset come from? HF: 56:52 Well, I think, you know, my parents were very bright and thoughtful people. My father tended to be more conservative than my mother, but I think probably the exposure through my temple youth group in high school started me on some sort of leadership roles, certainly at Harpur being involved in Newing college governance and Student Government, campus wide and student center board, sort of becoming the boy bureaucrat- IG: 57:27 Yeah-yeah. HF: 57:29 -that I became, [crosstalk] I think was very- IG: 57:32 bureaucrat for very kind of, you know, forward looking causes. I mean, you know. HF: 57:40 Yeah, I am not sure where the progressive piece comes from. I think my grandmother, I know, is a suffragette, so maybe, maybe that and a couple of my aunts tended to be more probably progressive, than my own immediate family. So maybe they were role models. IG: 57:59 Right. And probably living in New York and being in a student environment. Did you read the piece about the in the New York Times just a day ago--it was written by- I forget his name, a conservative professor, and he lamented how university administrators are far more left leaning than even faculty. HF: 58:27 Now I missed that piece. I am still very involved in a lot of volunteer causes. So last week, I am a UUP delegate. So, I was at the UUP delegate assembly in Buffalo, and of course, this week, I am at the plenary. So, I stopped preparing for UUP and started preparing for these meetings. And in the middle, I am I serve as secretary of my co-op board. So, I had a meeting last night, so I think it was prep work to be done, and follow up will be done on that, so. IG: 59:02 Do you, may I ask about your family life? Did you have a family? Did you- HF: 59:09 I have a partner. We have been together for 22 years, living together for 20 years. IG: 59:17 That is nice. That is very nice. Um, that is- HF: 59:23 He actually got me involved in UUP. IG: 59:25 Really? [inaudible] HF: 59:27 I was management confidential as an Associate Dean, so I could not be at the time, but when I came back into pathology, I was able to join the union at that point. IG: 59:41 You know, I do not know how you know comfortable, or how you know this is maybe not and this is outside of the scope of this interview, but I would be very interested in in the gay community at Harpur College. You know, during the time I am going to meet with somebody tomorrow who is going to talk about that. HF: 1:00:08 Well, let us say, in my freshman year, there was no gay community. IG: 1:00:13 Yeah. HF: 1:00:15 It just did not exist. Although, interestingly, I guess, when I was running for student government, I remember speaking to some people in the basement of my dorm, and they we should pause for a second. IG: 1:00:43 Okay, so we are back with Dr. Flax. HF: 1:00:48 Just recalling campaigning for student government meeting Bill Jones and Arni Zane, who would later become very well-known modern dance dancers and subsequently choreographers. So that was probably my first exposure to anyone who was actually out in a very limited way in college. And then we had several committees on the student center board, and there was a young man with a lot of enthusiasm, Martin Levine, who became our dance committee chair and did a phenomenal job changing the whole culture of what dance was at Harpur and-and bringing it into the-the 1960s from where it had been in the 1950s he subsequently became a major gay activist in New York City, and unfortunately died during the AIDS crisis in the late (19)80s. I think the first gay student organization probably was established in my senior year, but I was not part of that at all. IG: 1:02:09 Right, yeah, when you, when you think, I mean, it is we, really, I mean, everyone, everyone, I think, every thinking individual has gone through worlds of change, anyone who has lived a life. HF: 1:02:32 I looked at the generation before me that lived through the Depression and World War Two, and this was certainly not as life altering as those two experiences, but I think the campus upheaval in the (19)60s and the Vietnam War were a microcosm of change for our generation. IG: 1:02:56 I absolutely agree. I think maybe less violent with less bloodshed. But, you know, a huge, a huge change in outlook and thinking. I think we are running out of time unfortunately, because I have- HF: 1:03:19 {crosstalk] a four o'clock bus. IG: 1:03:20 No, no, I have a four o'clock pickup. [inaudible] But-but are there any concluding thoughts that you have about, you know, the value of your Harpur College, the impact that it has had on your life? You know things like that any-any- HF: 1:03:41 I think it was a wonderful education for me as much or probably more outside the classroom than in the classroom in terms of my psychosocial development. I think it set a career path for me that when I left higher ed, went to the business world and then had to reevaluate. It convinced me that I probably made the right choice going into higher education. I might have done some things differently. Perhaps I would have started as a faculty member in architectural history and then probably, I think, moved into administration one way or another. But I certainly do not have any regrets about attending Harpur when I did, with whom I did, I made some-some very good friends along the way. In fact, when I was hired at downstate for the associate dean position. The woman who was the vice president at the time is someone who I had admired very much when I worked on the student center board. She was a few years ahead of me, and it did not register with her until the end of our interview, when she asked, am I the Henry flax. attended Harpur College. Said, "Yes, I am" and I realized she had made a far greater impact on my life than I had made on hers, but we did work together very successfully for seven years. IG: 1:05:14 That is very nice. Well, thank you very much. HF: 1:05:22 Thank you for the opportunity to do this. IG: 1:05:24 It is a pleasure. It has really been a pleasure. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Henry S. Flax Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College – Seventies alumni; Harpur College – Alumni in law; Harpur College – Alumni on Harpur Law Council Board; Harpur College – Alumni in New York City; Harpur College – Alumni living in Connecticut Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Flax, Henry S. ; Gashurov, Irene Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Description An account of the resource Henry has held many roles in higher education, generation of new business, client service, quality control and cost management. These include positions as Associate Dean of Enrollment Management and Student Development at LaGuardia Community College; Associate Dean of Student Affairs at NYU; as well as positions at SUNY Downstate Medical Center and Hunter College, CUNY. His EdD is from Teachers College at Columbia Universtiy. He has served as sector head for the SUNY University Faculty Senate for the Health Science Centers. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2018-10-17 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context Henry Flax.mp3 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-10-17 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Oral Histories from 60's Binghamton Alumni Extent The size or duration of the resource. 65:27 minutes https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2da27a67b2e9e15cd394a9ff307473bc.JPG ccbad31aab85b5d28d58c73d920d5f59 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1ad80d23a76d2e6aa6a12d0e5f8bb684.mp3 b454103bc863f1a8bb29a5d6ca4e9958 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David Zupan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text David Zupan is an activist and former English teacher studying how to make documentaries that make a difference. So far, films he has collaborated on through Daniel Miller's class at the University of Oregon's Journalism School include <em>Hashtag Revolution</em>, <em>We Refuse To Be Enemies</em>, <span><em>Houseless Not Hopeless</em>,</span> and <em>Creatively Maladjusted</em>. He is affiliated with the Occupy Eugene Media Group in Eugene, Oregon. David Zupan is the founder and director of Progressive Voices which is dedicated to promoting the diverse voices and ideas and solutions critically needed in our global community today. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Civil Rights Movement; War draft; Vietnam War; Political activism; Baby boom generation; Generation gap."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Civil Rights Movement; War draft; Vietnam War; Political activism; Baby boom generation; Generation gap.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 229:06 Subject LCSH Political activists--United States; Radio broadcasting; Zupan, David--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Zupan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Zupan, David ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Political activists--United States; Radio broadcasting; Zupan, David--Interviews Description An account of the resource David Zupan is a veteran media activist and English teacher. He currently works as an independent contractor for IPA doing broadcast media outreach and database updating. He is also director of the Speakers’ Clearinghouse, which helps progressive policy analysts find speaking engagements at schools throughout the U.S. and Canada. David Zupan is an activist and former English teacher studying how to make documentaries that make a difference. So far, films he has collaborated on through Daniel Miller's class at the University of Oregon's Journalism School include <em>Hashtag Revolution</em>, <em>We Refuse To Be Enemies</em>, <em>Houseless Not Hopeless</em>, and <em>Creatively Maladjusted</em>. He is affiliated with the Occupy Eugene Media Group in Eugene, Oregon. David Zupan is the founder and director of Progressive Voices which is dedicated to promoting the diverse voices and ideas and solutions critically needed in our global community today. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.211a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.211b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 229:06 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4c64c733ec9ae4bd0df2466db16abaf4.jpg ad3c922c6231a85ac929459490f0a6ab https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3279e67db1969e6c1dd271093ac41629.mp3 849c2ac33c9ee5c4f840ebc53b0dc412 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Shawn Wong, 1949- Date of Interview 2010-08-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Shawn Wong is a Chinese American author and scholar. He received his undergraduate degree in English at the University of California at Berkeley and his Master's degree in Creative Writing at San Francisco State University. Wong was a Professor of English, Director of the University Honors Program, Chair of the Department of English, and Director of the Creative Writing Program at the University of Washington."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13309,"3":{"1":1},"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Shawn Wong is a Chinese American author and scholar. He received his undergraduate degree in English at the University of California at Berkeley and his Master's degree in Creative Writing at San Francisco State University. Wong was a Professor of English, Director of the University Honors Program, Chair of the Department of English, and Director of the Creative Writing Program at the University of Washington.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Communism in China; Baby boom generation, Asian-Americans; Civil Rights Movement; Internment camps; Gender roles; Vietnam War; McCarthyism."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Communism in China; Baby boom generation, Asian-Americans; Civil Rights Movement; Internment camps; Gender roles; Vietnam War; McCarthyism.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 228:32 Subject LCSH Chinese American authors; Scholars; College teachers; Wong, Shawn, 1949--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Shawn Wong Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 23 August 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two, three. Very good. I got a series of questions here and, of course, a lot of it may be spontaneous too, in response to your replies. I thought before we even start, I just want to say that I think it is very important in this project, when I am looking at the Boomer Generation, that I include everyone, and I have been trying to make this effort. And I also realize that sometimes when you talk about the Boomer Generation, born between (19)46 and (19)64, that ... I am looking at Boomers now more in terms of spirit because some of the people that were born say in (19)38 to (19)45 have told me, in no uncertain terms, that they feel like they're part of the generation, and then some even born afterwards too. So, it is kind of a spiritual thing as well as years-wise. First question. Still there? SW (00:01:03): Yeah. SM (00:01:03): Could you tell me a ... I have read your background. I know about it, but this is going to be in the book. Could you tell me a little bit about yourself? I know you grew up in Oakland. Your growing up years, what it was like being an Asian American male in Oakland, in the Bay Area, and basically information like who are your role models, people that you looked up to? SW (00:01:28): Sure. Actually, I was born in Oakland, but I grew up in Berkeley. We were living at Berkeley at the time, and my parents were students at UC Berkeley at the time. And other than the most obvious, parents being your role models. Both of my parents came from China, so they were part of that generation that came over after World War II, and intended to go back to China. But the communists took over China in 1949, and they elected to stay in the US, and the US allowed them to stay. So, I was born in (19)49, and I think I was lucky in that I was born in the Bay Area, and grew up in the Bay Area, because there were sort of Asian American role models around. I remember my mother always telling me that I was Chinese American but, as a kid, you do not really understand that. She said that my dad and her, they were Chinese, but I was Chinese American. And of course, I did not understand what that meant until years later. But one story that I always tell is that when I was about eight years old, UC Berkeley had a great football team. And I think in 1958, it was the last team to go to the Rose Bowl. But on the football team, they had a Japanese American football player, and his name was Pete Domoto. And I had never seen an Asian American doing something like that. Most Asian Americans were, Asian people, were engineers and doctors, not really any faces in pop culture or sports. And as a kid, I used to go to the Cal football games and, at the end of the game, a lot of kids would run down on the field, and try to get autographs or ... I remember football players often gave away parts of their uniforms, like their chin straps and stuff like that. And I remember running down there, and trying to get a close up look at Pete Domoto to see if he really did look Asian, and to get his autograph. And I never got his autograph, but I remember he was a real role model to me. SM (00:04:39): What became of him? SW (00:04:41): I will tell you in a second. One of the funny things is that [inaudible 00:04:46] kids, just like other kids at the time, I wanted to be Willie Mays, and things like that, but there were no Asian role models except for Pete, because he was on this famous award-winning football team. He became kind of a target of mine. And when I played football with my friends, my buddies, I would always pretend I was Pete Domoto. He did not play a glamorous position, he was left guard, but that is what I wanted to be. A left guard. And so when I first started ... I used to tell this story a lot, and when I moved up here to Seattle, I remember somebody asking me the same question about role models. And I told this story. And one day I was sitting here in my office at the UW and I get a call, and I answer the phone, and the person says, "This is a voice from your past." SM (00:05:57): Oh, my gosh. SW (00:05:58): I go, "Who is this jokester?" [inaudible] And you never know who is at the other end. And he said, "This is Pete Domoto." And I was stunned. I felt like I was eight years old. I said, "Pete Domoto? Number 60? Left guard at the Cal Bears?" I knew ... I remembered his number. And he goes, "Yeah." SM (00:06:28): Oh, my gosh. SW (00:06:29): [inaudible] talking about me. And I said, "Yes, I have." I said, "Wow, I cannot believe you're calling me." And I said, "Where are you calling from?" And he goes, "Well, it just so happens, I am the head of pediatric dentistry here at the University of Washington." SM (00:06:50): Oh, my gosh. SW (00:06:53): And he says to me, "Would you like to have lunch?" And I go, " Yeah." SM (00:07:01): You can get his autograph. SW (00:07:03): Yeah. I even said on the phone, "Can I have your autograph?" I reverted to my eight-year-old self. SM (00:07:12): My, what a story. SW (00:07:14): So, we went and had the lunch, and I remember calling a friend of mine as soon as I hung up, who was an executive at Budweiser, Anheuser-Busch, and he was my age and grew up in Berkeley, and he was also Chinese. And I called him and I said, "Andrew, guess what? Guess who just called me?" And I said, "Pete Domoto." And he goes, "No way." And my friend Andrew said, "I still have his autograph." SM (00:07:45): Oh, my gosh. SW (00:07:47): So Pete had a, I think, a big effect on Baby Boomer Asian kids growing up in the Bay Area. And this was way before having a role model like Bruce Lee or other Asian Americans who have sort of made it into pop culture. The only Asian images in the movies were these very, very stereotypical images played by actors who were not even Asian, like Charlie Chan. Or we were always the villain or the enemy in World War II movies, or ... there were not really any positive images, or we were Hop Sing on Bonanza. Servant, laundry man, soldier, enemy soldiers, things like that. So, it was important to have somebody like Pete Domoto around. SM (00:08:53): Yeah, that is an unbelievable story. SW (00:08:56): Yeah. We became friends. I got his autograph. I even brought a ... at his retirement party, he asked me to come and speak at his retirement party. I brought a football. A UC Berkeley football, and I asked for his autograph again. SM (00:09:15): Wow. You're talking about growing up in the late forties and (19)50s, a lot of the Boomer kids, and whether ... I read the history books. Now we are talking general histories now, we are not talking Dr. Takaki and some of the others that have really concentrated on the Asian American community. I was a big Iris Chang fan too, and that was a big loss killing herself. But the thing is, what was it like ... when you watch those television shows, a lot of people look at 1950s TV, and certainly if you're an African American, you rarely see a person of color except for Amos and Andy. And then Nat King Cole had a six-week run in the middle (19)50s. And other than that, you wait to the early (19)60s for I Spy and- SW (00:10:10): Right. All you had were, if you look at other role models, [inaudible], Tonto. SM (00:10:19): Now, you obviously were very conscious of not seeing very many role models. Was that pretty prevalent amongst kids your age for that period? SW (00:10:32): Yeah, I think so. We looked at our peers, and lots of our peers had role models. Baseball players, football players. Or we found role models and other people that were involved in pop culture. Musicians, artists, things like that. And I think we were looking specifically for Asian American, not Asians from Asia. Obviously, people would say, "Well, be proud that you are Chinese. Chinese invented gunpowder and paper," et cetera, et cetera. I'd never even been to that country. SM (00:11:26): When I first started this process, I remember one person said to me, "You are talking about the Boomer Generation. When I see that term, I think of white men. I do not even think of people of color." And they were not even thinking of women. They were thinking ... but I said, "No, the effort is to try to reach all particular groups, because the Boomer Generation was a boom for everybody." And in your own words, can you describe, as best you can, the Asian American experience in the United States in the following timeframes? I know this is just general, which in ... I know I am going to get more specific later on, but what was America like for Asian Americans during the following periods? And the first one is 1946 to 1960. SW (00:12:20): Well, that was a time when, certainly, I was in school, and schools were dominated by pretty much monocultural education, as you know. Columbus discovered America, George Washington never told a lie, et cetera, et cetera. SM (00:12:41): He cut down a cherry tree. SW (00:12:44): And someone like me never saw an image in any of the books that had any kind of resemblance to reality. Obviously, multicultural education was a long ways off. And I had the good fortune of going to schools that were, for the most part in the Bay Area, and they were very sort of racially mixed, especially in Berkeley. But I do remember, in the second grade, my father took a job as a civilian engineer for the Navy. And my first grade, I was lived on Guam. And second grade, we moved to Taiwan. And that is my first experience being in an Asian country, other than visiting Hong Kong or relatives or stuff like that. But we lived in Taiwan, and the first day of school, the US Navy bus came by to pick my mother and I up, and she went with me. And I remember the story my mother tells me, told me the story, I do not quite remember it, but I remember parts of it, the US Navy bus came by, this gray typical Navy bus, picked us up in front of our house, and we both got on the bus. And as soon as I got on the bus, all the kids on the bus started chanting, "No Chinese allowed on this bus," because it was basically a white ... all for white American kids. And I remember thinking to myself, "Oh, it's okay. She's my mom." SM (00:14:43): Wow. SW (00:14:44): I think they were referring to me. And I sat down in the chair, and this is the part I do remember. A little girl named Pam came up to my mother and said, "Can I sit next to your son?" She said, "Sure." And she sat next to me and held my hand, and we rode together on the bus every day after that. SM (00:15:13): And what was your age? SW (00:15:15): Second grade. I was like seven or eight. I think I was seven, at the time. And so, it was really interesting to be an American in a Chinese country, and to have been brought up American, and I did not really speak Chinese. I sort of understood it. My parents spoke Mandarin. But growing up, at that time, that was sort of ... since my father worked for the Navy, we traveled around a lot. And by the third grade, he had come home to Berkeley. My father passed away of lung cancer when I was seven. SM (00:16:07): Sorry. SW (00:16:11): So we grew up there, and then my mother remarried a few years later. We moved to LA with my stepfather, which was a real awakening, I think. In the sixth grade, I went to inner city school in LA. And sort of been coddled in this nice Berkeley school, suddenly I find myself in the inner city with African Americans and Latinos. And they were hardcore kids, but certainly not as hardcore as they are now. But it was a real wake-up call. The whole school was Asian, and Latino, and Black, and different kinds of Asians. It was really shocking to me, and I thought I would not even survive that last year of [inaudible] elementary school. SM (00:17:12): And what year was that? SW (00:17:14): That was 1960. SM (00:17:19): (19)60. SW (00:17:20): And from there we moved to the suburbs, and the school became basically entirely white. SM (00:17:30): When you look at that period right after the war right to the time that President Kennedy was elected. Obviously, Japanese Americans had been interred in World War II concentration camps, really, out in the West. And of course, when the war ended, there was this attitude in America against the Japanese. I can remember growing up as a kid in the (19)50s up near Syracuse, and Ithaca, and Cortland, New York, World War II people saying Japs. They always used that term, because they had really ... they had hurt our boys, as they said. They had really done terrible things to our boys. So, the basic question I am asking you, and I know that the Chinese Americans, at that particular time, were working in all kinds of plants. So, they were more favored at that time, were not they, than Japanese? And then the restriction between those groups. So, there's not only cultural issues, but there's groups issues between Asian Americans. SW (00:18:42): Oh, absolutely. I mean, in many ways, the history of Chinese in America is that they, in the 18 hundreds, they were the pariah race of America, all these exclusion laws to keep them out of the country. And then, when World War II broke out, they were praised for, basically, not being Japanese, and then received acceptance until, of course, the communists took over China, and then Korean War came, and suddenly China became a threat. So the Chinese went back to being suspect race in many ways. And then, in the early (19)60s, when the civil rights began, Asians were then praised again for not being black, and the depiction of the model minority sort of started. There was a Newsweek article, I think, or US News and World Report article about 1962, I believe it was the first article to reference this model minority thing. And the article was called Out Whiting the Whites, and creating ... and essentially, congratulating Asians in America for their achievement. But the underlying message was you are not Black, and you are not [inaudible] all this ruckus. So, it has been an interesting history of what you might call ... oh, I do not know. In one book I wrote, I called it The Great Suffering and Acceptance Sweepstakes. You go through these periods of acceptance and rejection. SM (00:20:59): When you think of the (19)50s, you do not even ... again, I am just using this as a white person who's done a lot of reading and scholars, you hear about the Japanese and the Chinese, but you do not hear about many of the other groups. And occasionally, you might hear a little bit about the Vietnamese even before then, but other than when you're talking Asian Americans, you really ... people are probably only thinking Japanese and Chinese, are not they, really, in the (19)50s? SW (00:21:27): Much until after World War II, and then more Filipinos started to come. And after World War II, you had a lot of war brides. And then, of course, after 1961, immigration laws were ... LBJ signed into law reforms on immigration [inaudible]- SM (00:22:01): But what do you think the- SW (00:22:03): Remove some of the quotas. But essentially there were severe restrictions on Chinese until 1943, and World War II basically removed all of those immigration restrictions against the Chinese. It had to, because now China was an ally. SM (00:22:28): The question I always bring up here, particularly for those Asian Americans that were born in the United States, either during World War II or after, I consider them kind of together. I am learning that they need to be together, because that had similar experiences, and spiritually they went through a lot of things together. SW (00:22:51): And also judged by the same stereotype. It did not matter if, say, you were Chinese or Japanese. [inaudible] media stereotype [inaudible]. SM (00:23:01): What do you think the impact on Boomers that were born in that period, who were Japanese and Chinese, the ... were they having the same ... they were having the biases and prejudices within the American society, but were they ... African Americans were still fighting for equality in the South. We had young, even white and Jewish Americans going South, and Catholic priests, to help the African Americans in the early (19)60s. And then, of course, we had the free speech movement. And just so much happening in the (19)50s that really was the forerunner to the (19)60s, and I just want to know the influence that this had on Asian American Boomers. SW (00:23:54): Well, I think among the Boomers we identified with the ... we came of age during the civil rights movement. So we stopped being Orientals and became Asian. And the term Asian American was coined. It became a political term just like Afro-American during [inaudible 00:24:19] particularly. So the beginnings of the free speech movement, particularly if you lived in Berkeley, you were affected by that movement. And then I went to UC Berkeley during the ... all the period during a demonstration. And Boomers grew up during the, not only civil rights, but also Vietnam War. And particularly for Asian Americans in which US was fighting a war against an Asian country. Again, when we were children, we were now also depicted as enemy. And so that stereotype of the ... it did not matter whether the enemy was Japanese or Vietnamese or communist Chinese, it all got blended together in terms of popular media. And you're sitting there as a member of the Asian American Boomer Generation, and watching the war unfold on TV, and those images of Asians as the enemy. SM (00:25:39): Do you have the number of Asian Americans who fought in the Korean War, and in the Vietnam War? SW (00:25:46): Yeah. There was a number of Asian Americans in World War II, and the Korean War. World War II, of course, the Japanese Americans, they got the highest profile for 442nd regiment. But in the Vietnam War, there were a lot of ... I do not know the number, but there were a lot of Asian American veterans. In the early (19)70s, some friends of mine, we had a little radio show on KPFA in Berkeley, in which we interviewed returning Asian American Vietnam men, and the difficult adjustment they had in the military as well as afterwards, in which they were subjected to a daily barrage of racial stereotyping, and the enemy being referred to by all the derogatory Asian names. SM (00:27:06): Wow. SW (00:27:06): And I remember one veteran telling me when he got to Vietnam, his sergeant told him, "Ever take off your uniform, grow a beard, and do not ever go swimming, because we cannot tell you apart from the enemy." So, there you are living in that kind of state, and listening to the kind of racial epithets every day. SM (00:27:44): So basically, the Asian American military experience in Vietnam may be similar to what African Americans were going through, because the nation was really split apart at that time. And African American vets, particularly between (19)67 and (19)71, when they say the military really went downhill, they got involved in drugs and long hair and rock music. Were Asian Americans in the same boat, except they ... they had similar feelings? SW (00:28:22): Well, I think so. As you know, the draft was on then. So, the draft, obviously, targeted people who did not have a deferment at the time. No student deferment, no ... so many of the soldiers came from a particular class of America. And then, of course, later in the war, they removed all deferments, so you could not even get a student deferment. As we know, it was not only an unpopular war, but those who did serve, they, I think, got it from both sides. They got it not only from within, the racism that was present within, the culture of the armed forces then, but also on the outside from those of us who did not believe in the war. I think nobody blamed the soldier, but certainly felt alienated. SM (00:29:35): When you look at, going the next period, you have talked already a little bit about the (19)60s. But that being an Asian American during that 1961 to 1970 period, I might even say (19)61 to (19)73, because a lot of people say the (19)60s really ended ... went until (19)73, (19)74, and the Vietnam War ended in (19)75. So maybe from (19)61 to (19)75, what was it like to be Asian American in America at that particular time? And I also, and I am going to preface this by saying, were Asian Americans also involved in the anti-war movement? SW (00:30:15): Yeah, they definite ... well, I have a little bit of acute view having grown up in Berkeley, so I cannot really speak for all Asian Americans across the country. But certainly Asian Americans were very much politically involved, particularly, from where I stood. And it was not only the civil rights movement going on, but the anti-war movement, but also the rise of the demonstration to establish ethnic studies in universities, and Asian American studies. And everybody was sort of involved in the act of renaming themselves and re-identifying themselves, picking on political labels like Asian American. Negroes stop being Negroes. It became Afro-American. Asians stopped being Oriental, became Asian. Things like that. So, I think, as I recall, it seemed like the entire population was united in all of these efforts to end the war, to make, since we were all in college at that time, to make our universities be relevant to our experience, to recognize us, and to sort of react against that kind of monocultural education that we grew up in. Education ... I did not find out about Japanese internment camps until I was a senior in high school, which little paragraph in the history book. I went to Berkeley High School, and there is this little paragraph, and I remember sitting there going, "What are these?" And what's interesting is even my Japanese friends are saying, "Well, what are these things?" And we were up in arms. Finally, we had a cause. SM (00:32:31): Yeah. It is like- SW (00:32:32): It rooted itself in history. And I remember my Japanese American friends would go home and say to their parents, "Wow, there are these internment camps." And the parent said, "Yeah, we were in them." And then the kids would say, "Well, why did not you tell me about them?" "You never asked." And it was something that Japanese America was ashamed about and tried to erase. SW (00:33:03): About and tried to erase and tried to keep in the background. But the boomer generation that arrived in college now wanted to make some noise. Now wanted to rectify history. Later in the (19)80s, it was that boomer generation that started the redress movement to get redress for town. SM (00:33:26): That was the (19)80s to (19)90s period of the Reagan and Bush. SW (00:33:29): Yeah. So Reagan finally signed into law redress and Japanese Americans who were in camp got paid redress. Then it was the boomers who finally arrived in positions of influence as civil rights attorneys, et cetera, et cetera. Who brought that cause forward. All of that stuff that was happening in the early (19)60s was our education outside of academia to build a social and political consciousness that would move forward with us into our professional careers. SM (00:34:17): Obviously, you were at Berkeley and Berkeley has always been a progressive way ahead, a forerunner of things to come. A lot of people criticize it now that it is not doing that. Except I believe it still is because we see the students protesting their tuition increases. Some graduate students have actually left out of silent protest over those increases. But when you look at the period from the (19)90s, let us say from when Bill Clinton became president through George Bush and then President Obama, that 20-year period, what have the (19)90s and the first 10 years of the 21st century meant? For not only boomer Asian Americans, but Asian Americans as a whole? SW (00:35:08): Yeah. Well the face of Asian America changed completely post mid-(19)70s. When I was going to college, even at UC Berkeley, Asian Americans made up 6 percent of the student population in Berkeley. And it was mostly Chinese and Japanese American middle class. And now on any big metropolitan flagship public university, you might have anywhere from 12 to 15 different kinds of Asian ethnic groups on campus. I think the face of Asian America changed drastically with that new immigration. That new first generation gave birth to an Asian American generation that grew up in America and entered college. During that period, the first Vietnamese who came over and after the fall of Saigon, those kids are the ones who just starting college during the period you are talking about. So, what you had was an interesting mix of maybe fifth, sixth, even seventh generation Chinese Americans and the fourth generation Japanese Americans mixed in with brand new immigrants and second generation, southeast Asian generation. And in American Chinatowns for example, the face of an American Chinatown changed drastically. Chinese Americans at the time would go into Chinatown and not recognize any food anymore. Cause new immigrants took the place that traditional American Chinese American Chinatown, the town. SM (00:37:41): I know Vietnamese food is unbelievable. SW (00:37:44): Cuisine chain. Part of that typical Chinese American fair the Chinese Americans could not even recognize. I remember during that time in maybe the late (19)70s being asked at a restaurant one time, "What kind of noodles do you want?" What do you mean what kind of noodles? And then they rattled off a list of the different kinds of noodles. SM (00:38:15): Wow. SW (00:38:16): Oh wow. I do not even know what they are. Shanghai noodles and this kind of noodles. And so whereas other ethnic communities tended to stay the same. I remember a great article in San Francisco magazine in which an Italian American in North Beach was lamenting that his buddies, his neighbors, his Chinese neighbors that he's lived with his whole life have moved away. And he's saying, my new neighbors do not even speak English. That was a great comment because he's lamenting that the other Chinese moved away. Replaced by these new immigrants. SM (00:39:08): Well, when you look at higher education, and of course the evolution here of going in the 1950s, when you see the numbers of students in the (19)50s and going into the (19)60s and (19)70s, and you see this major progress with the state universities, not only in California but in New York Community college, state university systems. They're evolving at the same time that the increase in population of Asian Americans is happening. And then to me, and this just as a white person who has spent 33 years in higher education, that Asian Americans, their future is so directly linked to higher ed. And they were with it, so to speak, in terms of making for progress and for growth and development and developing careers. They saw the value of education. SW (00:40:06): Yeah. Right. I think that a case in which the previous generation who grew up after World War II or even before World War II, our parents' generation, they lived during a time in which there was second class citizenship. You could have been trained to be an engineer, but you could not get a job as an engineer even if you went to college. And my father was an exception that they actually got a job as an engineer. But it was difficult for our parents' generation to, even if they went to college, being able to find work because of there were not any equal opportunity things or [inaudible] laws, stuff like that. This is the time. I remember my mother going on a rant one day about when she was laid off from her job. This was after she had married my stepfather. And she and my stepfather both worked in the aerospace industry. She was a draftsman, an engineer. And she got laid off from the job and she came home and she said her supervisor told her she was laid off because one, my stepfather still worked for the company and two between her and the other guy, the other draftsman had to support his family. SM (00:42:02): Oh my gosh. SW (00:42:04): Of course, this is also at a time in which women were paid less than men. And I remember my mother just going on this rant because she was a single mother after my father died and she had to work to support us. And just at a time when all of my friends' mothers were home and they were housewives. None of my mother's friends worked. And those are the last vestiges of 1950s America. SM (00:42:52): So, people think, again, they always think of these white fathers and mothers where the mother's at home, but this is really America. SW (00:42:59): I remember it was my first lesson in gender issues. I remember thinking to myself, that is unfair. I was there when my mother had the struggle. SM (00:43:16): Go ahead. SW (00:43:17): So I think a lot of that, the boomer generation took forward because we were that first generation who got to go to college and go into the field that we majored in and graduated. Finally, that opportunity was open. I think our parents wanted us to go to college. But also, I think it was different for my parents because they were both college educated and when they came to America, they were already read and speak English. But for families that had to make a big cultural adjustment, they saw that as the opportunity for children to improve. SM (00:44:25): I had just some developments that happened in the United States in the world after World War II and wondering how they affected the Asian Americans here on the home front and also the immigration of those who came here during this time. I will just lift these and then you can comment on any of them if you want to. We all think about Mao Zedong and the Chinese Revolution in the late forties. And of course college students were carrying his little red booklet around college campuses. I know a couple students that actually read it too. So, it was not like it was just for show for some, but what Mao really stood for. Secondly, we know that Nixon went to China and despite what a lot of people dislike about him, a lot of people think that was a very important thing to happen. Thirdly, Iris Chang who passed away, she gave a speech about a couple of months before she died, and she talked about in the (19)90s about the spying about Asian Americans being accused of being spy. So, now Chinese Americans, again, were being looked upon in a negative way. And the fourth item, and you can comment on any of them, de facto may have had on the population as a whole, Tienanmen Square to me, was one of the most important events in my lifetime as a person who devoted my life to higher ed. And to see what happened to those students at Tienanmen Square was like the students at Kent State University. There is no excuse for it. And I just want to know what those events, how those four things affected the Asian American community. SW (00:46:24): I think those of us who were born in America and were Chinese American, I think we had a very complicated relationship with those world events. The first being Nixon's visit to China. You have to remember it is a country that our parents may have come from, but we had never been to, and suddenly the world's attention is on. And there was a great CBS documentary that was done just before Nixon went to China and it was called Misunderstanding China. And it was a look at narrated by Charles Kuralt, who had hair then. He introduced the documentary by showing all of these stereotypical movie images. So, this is what we know about China. Then they move into reality, the kind of China that you might be exposed when Nixon goes there in the media. So, I think for many of us, we have been combating media stereotypes of being Chinese in America for such a long time. Now we are on the cusp with Nixon's trip to China and afterwards of reality. And even China of itself is being revealed in a way that has never been seen before. I remember a bunch of things. Insane or really interesting things like the Chinese food is not like the Chinese food we have at home, my God. But there were a bunch of things that happened during that period. I think Chinese Americans fought hard not to be defined by it because it was on everybody's tongue. It was now acceptable to go to China. Nixon opened to China basically, and now Americans could go there to get visas to visit China. And then years later when everybody started to go to China, I remember people would tell me about their visits to China and they would talk to me as if I knew what they were talking about. They would say, oh, you know, Forbidden City. And I would just nod my head. I felt reluctant to tell them, in the (19)90s, but I had not been there. They just assumed I have been there, somehow, I have been there. My first visit to China was not until 1998, and that was to, we were not counting Hong Kong, but that was to Shanghai for three days. I arrived there and I figured it out, but something like 50 years to the day when my parents left China. And so we had this odd relationship, that China not really recognizing Chinese Americans for decades. Because I think China felt that you were in that generation that left China, but you overseas Chinese were basically clumped together. And in China we did not really have an identity in a way. Only recently has China shown real academic interest in Chinese America, Chinese American history. SM (00:51:02): The Tienanmen Square situation though in 1989, I would like your thoughts on it because obviously it was a major event in the world. But I can remember coming back to my university in late August, September. No one wanted to talk about it. And what amazed me is we had quite a few students from China, the international student organization, that did not even want to talk about it. And I think maybe they were here on visas and they were fearful of it and I could not understand. So what I ended up having to do was I went to Temple University and got three graduate students who were not afraid to speak up. They were strong activists and I brought them to the university and even still then the Chinese students did not come out to see them for fear that if they were in the audience, they would be watched. We were a small school. What is it about Tienanmen Square? To me it was about democracy. SW (00:52:06): Yeah. I think for the foreign students, it was something that they were, I think rightly afraid of to comment on. Get them expelled from the US they thought, or they might have repercussions back home, or their family. But I think for Chinese Americans, boomers particularly, it was something we recognized. It was that kind of public defiance that we grew up with at the (19)60s and (19)70s and it resembled the free speech movement. It had all the earmarks except for the tanks and all the earmarks of the things that we had gone through. But even with the tanks, I mean certainly we got tear gas from helicopters and things like that. And then as you mentioned, Kent State. SM (00:53:14): Yes. SW (00:53:16): On one event, it captured all of the events of the (19)60s and early (19)70s when our campuses were on fire and on strike and being shut down. Civil disobedience was something Boomers recognized [inaudible] plot. And if you look now you look at China. You think, oh, I do not think this is what Mao had in mind. SM (00:53:55): Well, it is interesting though that my nephew went to China about four years ago. And when he got on the plane, they were all counseling. They said one thing you do not talk about when you get over to China, it is Tienanmen Square. And you're going to go Tienanmen Square but if you start talking about the 1989, they will put you on a plane back to America. SW (00:54:16): Yeah. SM (00:54:17): And I say, you got to be kidding me. No. Then they will not allow any protests even to this day on Tienanmen Square. And- SW (00:54:25): You can talk about it now. SM (00:54:28): You can talk about it? SW (00:54:30): Yeah. I mean, a few years ago I was there on a trip during that exact period you are talking about. When the book Gentleman Papers came out. I was on a trip for the State Department visiting southern China, some universities there, and you really could not talk about it then, but now you can. I was just on a trip there a couple of years ago and as a guest of what the equivalent to like the USIA in China. And they said to us right off the bat, there's a group of writers, you can ask us anything, we will talk about anything. We talked about Tienanmen Square, we talked about banned books. These are officials. SM (00:55:33): Based on your experience... SW (00:55:35): They were intent on changing. I have never been in a country which the entire country was intent on changing its image. And this was just before the Olympics. We knew we were on the very manufactured kind of visit, but still, they kept reassuring us to talk about anything. We will talk about it. The idea was it's a new China, entirely capitalistic now, and it was. They were trying to change their identity prior to the Olympics. SM (00:56:26): One quick question though regarding it. Put your thinking camp on regarding what was happening here in the United States in the fall of 1989. At the university you were teaching at, I do not know if you were at the University of Washington, but was it also quiet there? No one talked about it? Or is it just our college? SW (00:56:46): Well, people noted it, I do not know. I do not recall what the Chinese student reaction was. But I think publicly Asian students as a group supported what was going on. And I think it may be different on the West coast. SM (00:57:13): My thought was here we have college administrators running universities who were boomers and they immediately saw Tienanmen Square and they thought uh-oh, activism. And so they were very happy that colleges were quiet in the fall. We brought Lee Lu to campus and he believed that one day they would come back and take over the leadership of China. I will get back to the question here in a minute. There was a faculty member on our campus who was probably in her late forties, and I mentioned about Lee Lu and about Tienanmen Square and some sort of a conversation. She went into a rage saying those students were the worst. I lived in China then, and those students were terrible. They tore our country apart. She did not care that they were killed. It was just amazing the reaction of a person who was probably pro-government, an anti-student. Looking at some of these other things here. When you look at the 1950s again, Asian Americans had issues in America during the time that, well, all boomers were younger. These are some of the issues and can just, this is kind of the mentality that was happening in say from the 1950s through the 1980s. We had McCarthyism where there was a fear that people were communists. SW (00:58:49): Hang on one second. SM (00:58:50): Yep. SW (00:59:11): Sorry Steve. SM (00:59:11): That is okay. Did McCarthyism and that attitude not only of HUAC, but of McCarthyism in the late forties, and then of course the (19)50s affect Asian Americans? Because in reality, anybody who supposedly had been a member of the Communist Party, they were looking. They were looking for communists everywhere. And that must have made Asian Americans feel tense. SW (00:59:39): Oh yeah. Lots of things in Chinatowns, for example, ended during that McCarthy period, Chinatown had a healthy group of labor unions, for example, and all of those disappeared during the McCarthy era. The labor unions whatever manufacturing was going on, or the Chinese Hand Laundry Alliance and other places, Chinatown, all of those labor unions disappeared because labor unions were looked upon as a socialist construct. And so Chinese went into a period in which the last thing you want to do is be perceived as a communist or any red or pink, and to disassociate yourself with communist China. You had public demonstrations embracing the nationalist Chinese flag in the streets of American Chinatowns during festivals and embracing a country, almost none of the Chinese of Chinatown ever been to. And disassociating themselves from post 1949 China. Not to mention that China, the China that these immigrants had left is no longer in existence. SM (01:01:18): Let me turn my tape here. Hold on a second. SW (01:01:25): I might take something that was on my iPod. SM (01:01:31): Oh yeah. Well I am old school, but they still sell these. SW (01:01:42): Or what was it? I picked something on iMovie. SM (01:01:42): Well, when you go interview people, you got to have a recorder. You can continue on McCarthyism. SW (01:01:49): Right. So again, even in the (19)70s there was a red scare. And Hoover was investigating American Chinatowns for secret communists. He posted these hand bills around Chinatown in Chinese. One second, I will read part of it to you. SM (01:02:23): I also know that Lyndon Johnson feared that communists were behind the anti-war movement. The dissonance. SW (01:02:29): Hoover posted these leaflets around Chinatown and (19)71 and (19)72. I will just read you the beginning and the end. "Now that you have settled in America, you are not only entitled to enjoy the various blessings of America's free political system, but in addition, we will be able to shoulder the responsibilities of protecting these free traditions." Blah, blah, blah. "Communists frequently engage in secret activities within America's borders and plot to destroy the free traditions of China. While our bureau is on constant alert, it pays close attention to these matters. From now you too may join our defense against communism." SM (01:03:17): Oh my gosh. SW (01:03:22): "This, while in America you'd become aware of communists or [inaudible] spy who are engaged in intelligence or destructive and subversive activities, you are urgently requested to telephone the local branch of the FBI." SM (01:03:37): Wow. SW (01:03:39): But down at the bottom they talk about, all you have to do is report. You do not have to carry out your own investigation. And then it says, "You must realize that investigation is a specialized and sophisticated profession, and if ordinary people attempted, they not only risk their own safety, but also risk startling the snake from his hiding place." SM (01:04:02): Wow. SW (01:04:02): Signed J. Edgar Hoover. SM (01:04:02): You got that framed? SW (01:04:02): These are posted in Chinese. SM (01:04:02): Oh my gosh. SW (01:04:14): Around Chinatown. SM (01:04:16): That is a collector's item. SW (01:04:18): So these leaflets obviously placed the entire population at risk. Of course, now, because it was signed by J. Edgar Hoover, he was a little off his rocker. SM (01:04:34): We found out he also wore dresses. I do not know if that is true. SW (01:04:36): So yeah, he had a name too for himself, I forgot what it was. SM (01:04:52): When you look at some of the other things here. I guess mainly I just want to know that the Asian American boomers and families were well aware that these things were impacting their lives as well. Obviously the Korean War. How were Korean Americans treated in the 1950s during this particular war? We have talked about the Chinese and Japanese, but how were Koreans treated? SW (01:05:12): I do not really know too much, but there was not a huge population of Korean Americans around the time, not like there is now. So, their immigration is [inaudible] numbers is basically post 1961, (19)63, when they started to arrive in the larger numbers. SM (01:05:39): Were Asian American students or youth boomers involved in the counterculture in the 1960s? I bring these things up. Woodstock and the Summer of Love and 1968, which tore the nation apart and the assassinations obviously, and then even going back to where... And even going back to where Asian Americans aware of Freedom Summer in (19)64 and what young people were doing in the South in early (19)60s, risking their lives. SW (01:06:12): They're all certainly part of that. But I think all the boomers, no matter where you were from, got involved in pop culture of (19)60s and (19)70s. I graduated from high school (19)67, the summer of love, lived in the Haight-Ashbury while I was going school and that kind of thing. And I saw around me a lot of Asian Americans who embraced that culture and everything about it, our hair long, but we went to college. SM (01:07:09): Yep, and you were influenced like all of them. SW (01:07:12): We were doing it. We were not exactly dropping out, but- SM (01:07:17): In other words, you were basically inhaling and not- SW (01:07:22): No-no. SM (01:07:23): You were inhaling but you were not taking, right? SW (01:07:26): Right. We were not actually holding it. Going, in those days, you went to other public place and just sort of stood around, you could not help but inhale. SM (01:07:37): I know, that is why Bill Clinton saying he never inhales really is amazing. SW (01:07:41): If it is a rock concert, you do not have to touch one, but you are inhaling constantly. SM (01:07:50): To me, 1975 is a major year. Vietnam means a lot to me. If you can tell, my whole life I have been involved in civil rights, and I have actually worked with a lot of Asian American students. I have advised Asian American students for over 20 years, and so I got to know a lot of them. They were always in my office talking. But one of the areas, I was very close to Vietnamese students, and I still, most of my Facebook is with Vietnamese students, have gone on different careers and so forth. 1975, when the helicopter went off the top of the embassy, we all know the people that did escape and were on the ships and everything, they got back to America or different parts of the world, and of course that was the beginning of the boat people. And then we know what happened in Cambodia with a Khmer Rouge. We have had [inaudible] on the campus, and the exodus of people from Cambodia. I have known students from Laos and Thailand and even India and Pakistan. What is it about 1975 and that helicopter that really not only impacts boomers who were really in the anti-war movement and veterans who were in the war itself, but also to possibly Asian Americans themselves as a symbol of the new flood of immigrants into the United States? SW (01:09:30): I am thinking one thing from Asian American point of view, watching the fall of Saigon, in some ways there is a sense of relief. Now the war's over. We're not the enemy in the media every night. And so that image is, people I think felt finally will go away. It may take some time, but it will go away, or at least until the next war against an Asian county. And I think there were two significant events. Prior to the helicopter lifting off from the American embassy, the other one I remember when I was in college was LBJ saying he was not going to run again. And that was, I remember standing there with a bunch of other people, wow. We might see an end. And we thought, I think that too was a significant moment. And I think other people, or Asian Americans, other things happened following that. During the Iranian hostage crisis and stuff like that, when there was talk of any kind of internment, Iranian American, Japanese American boomers spoke. History repeats itself. And I think what happened was, among boomers particularly, is that in the early (19)60s through civil rights and on, not only did Asian Americans sort of reinvent themselves in a political way by renaming themselves, but also, they, I think established a political coalition among all Asian Americans. Whether you were Middle Eastern or Asian from Asia, the idea of things that we learned from history have to be brought up in a way that is politically supportive. I remember Japanese Americans speaking up on behalf of Iranian Americans at the time. SM (01:12:48): Well, the boat people is kind of a sad story because as many as 2 million people I think tried to escape and many died. But one of the, I used to mention this to the students, your mom and dad never would have met if they had not met in a camp. And they never thought of it that way, because a lot of the Vietnamese students that I have known, their parents met in camps. SW (01:13:12): Yeah, the very first ones who came over in (19)75 were ethnically Chinese. So that was interesting to see that, particularly from our point of view as Asian Americans. When the Vietnamese came over, they were Cantonese speaking Vietnamese. We realize, oh, these folks are Chinese. SM (01:13:43): It is interesting, there are a lot of naysayers and doubters and critics. There is still a lot of bigots in this country as you well know. And it's interesting that in the Vietnamese population that came over here in 1975, I have heard this from others, not from students, but from people that I think are a little biased, they say, "Well, if the Vietnamese can come over here in 1975 and be a smashing success in life with good jobs and everything, and they have had to work, some of them worked in the cities and sold things on the streets and they worked their way up, why cannot African Americans do the same? They have been here 200 years." Have you heard this before? SW (01:14:29): Oh yeah. SM (01:14:31): They always talk about the Vietnamese. It's the Vietnamese comparing them to the African Americans. SW (01:14:36): Yeah, I mean it is a popular racist assumption. SM (01:14:41): Yep-yep. SW (01:14:41): Minority group off against another. SM (01:14:47): Yeah, I think that exists today. SW (01:14:54): Yeah, oh absolutely. SM (01:14:57): Yeah. SW (01:14:57): And you cannot fall into that trap. SM (01:14:58): Yep. Agree. I am going to go back to Berkeley here. I am all over the place, but you were on the Berkeley campus as a student from (19)67 to (19)71? SW (01:15:04): I was actually at San Francisco State for two years, (19)67 to (19)69, during the Hayakawa years. SM (01:15:14): Yeah, those were all over the news. SW (01:15:18): And I got disgusted with Hayakawa, so I left and went back to UC Berkeley, and I graduated from there in (19)71. And then I went back to San Francisco State for graduate school in creative writing and ended up having SI Hayakawa's name on my diploma. SM (01:15:37): Oh my gosh. Well he went out and become a senator. SW (01:15:40): Yeah. SM (01:15:42): What is interesting about him is- SW (01:15:42): Ronald Reagan's name on my diploma. SM (01:15:47): Wow. That is a historic document. SW (01:15:50): Ronald Reagan. SM (01:15:52): Two people that really, really put their careers on the line against students really. People's Park happened in (19)69 when you were there, I believe, at Berkeley, and that was a pretty rough experience. And then of course, Hayakawa had his experience with the African American students at San Francisco State. Just, obviously, again I am asking, maybe repeating myself and the experience that you have, but in your peers and your Asian American students at that time, they were experiencing both of these. How were they taking this in, the People's Park and the SI Hayakawa confrontations? SW (01:16:36): Yeah, I mean Hayakawa was, just infuriated Asian Americans because of his, not only his conservative stance, but he also took a very sort of conservative view on the internment camps too. SM (01:17:07): Oh wow. SW (01:17:08): He was Canadian. He would not even speak out against the internment camps. I forgot what he said, but I remember he said about- SM (01:17:14): So where was he during the internment camps? SW (01:17:14): Well, he was Canadian, so I do not know where he was, but he certainly did not experience it. But the Japanese Canadian experience is much worse than the Japanese American. Japanese Canadians were sent to abandoned mining towns. Now they were not allowed back to the West Coast until (19)49 or something. SM (01:17:28): Right. SW (01:17:42): But yeah, Hayakawa was just, every Asian American just wanted to disown him. SM (01:17:45): What is amazing is he was a very highly visible person then. SW (01:17:48): Yeah, and was just, as I recall it, just infuriating because his stance was basically anti-student. SM (01:18:00): Wow. SW (01:18:00): I think we went through six presidents that year until the governor finally was able to, because none of the governors wanted to bring police on campus. None of the presidents wanted to bring police on campus at San Francisco State, and so they were fired. And finally, Hayakawa was hired and immediately brought the police on campus, which of course caused the riot. SM (01:18:30): You wrote the book, American Knees. Now I have got to admit, I have not read it, but I will within the next month because every person I interview, I must read their books. Now, I read someplace in one of the things on the web that said that it was a cultural, that you wrote American Knees as a cultural response to Amy Tan's Joy Luck Club. Is that true? SW (01:18:59): Oh, I do not think that is quite accurate. I remember somebody saying that, but now I do not know. SM (01:19:10): How do they differ? How do those two books differ? SW (01:19:14): Well, I mean, Amy Tan's book is a very, very commercial sort of venture. And I mean, for what it is, I have to hand it to her, the chief kind of commercial success that book put on me, but I do not personally agree with her stance in the book which is basically, to put it in a very short form, you read her book or you see the movie version and you come away with one conclusion, which is, Chinese culture sucks. And I have aunts who are the same generation as her main characters and they never talk about their culture like that. If anything, they go the opposite way. They're just boring me to death about how great Chinese culture is. And to represent Chinese culture as misogynistic or more misogynistic than any other culture is, I think, wrong. But my book is certainly not a response to her book. I do make a mention, I allude to her book late in my novel, and that is the only illusion to Joy Luck Club. And that is probably the only dig, and it is really about the readers of Joy Luck Club rather than the book itself. SM (01:21:00): Yeah. I read an interview that, you have seen it too on the web, which is the one where you and filmmaker Eric Byler were together? SW (01:21:09): Yeah, Byler, yeah. SM (01:21:09): And you were talking about the model minority. And I think it gets, in the conversations that I have had with some of the female students who were Asian American, many have gone on to become doctors and nurses and accountants and everything, they really got upset when they hear that term model minority. It really, and it is even today, it is something that just, and they kind of laugh it off and all this other stuff, that we are so much smarter. I know a couple students that had some hard time in math, so you cannot stereotype. But can I read something here, because I want your response to it? SW (01:21:56): Yes. SM (01:22:00): Because it is from the interview, and I might, it says here, "So now we have Raymond Ding in the novel, a lady's man, almost a womanizer. And so those people who have this agenda, they claim that finally we can say that Asian men are virile, sexual, charismatic, charming. We can finally show that we can dress up in clothes, and we can appropriate their version of masculinity." And then down below here is, "We can be just like you. Is not that what the model minority myth is all about? Where the mainstream culture says, 'Hey, there is a place right here next to us.' It is almost as high, your chair will be almost as high, and that is the best you can do. And all you have to do is follow these little rules: be a model student, be a model minority, be a model prisoner, follow the rules, and you will be next to us." I think that is beautiful because of the fact that is kind of like joining a fraternity and it is- SW (01:23:01): It is about conformity. SM (01:23:04): Yeah, and I just think at the bottom here it says, "And yet there are performances in American Knees that are very, very Asian, very Asian American, that do not suddenly throw off our own culture in order to burrow into another." And I think that is be who you are and do not be a copy of what other people want you to be. SW (01:23:26): Right. Right. Well, actually, Raymond Ding, the main character is very flawed individual and he sort of comes to terms with that during the book, as well as the film. The film's obviously very different from the book. I am thinking only- SM (01:23:56): Would you say that Asian American boomer men and women have had to deal with these perceptions, not only today, of the last 20 years, but- SW (01:24:05): In a different way. So we work hard to reject not only the most obvious media stereotypes, but also the negative stereotypes, but also those sort of so-called positive stereotypes, being the model minority and college educated, quiet, hardworking. Another statistic out there that says Asian households have highest income, does not take into effect there might be more working members in the household, that kind of thing. That model minority myth is out there, simply as we noted earlier, its main purpose is to pit one minority group off against another. And you cannot accept that label when you realize that it becomes a stereotype. And the goal of any racial stereotype, the ultimate goal of any racial stereotype is to have that racial minority eventually believe in the stereotype. So, if the stereotype is you work hard, but you keep quiet and you do not upset dominant society, and you do not try to be aggressive and things like that, if you believe in that stereotype, then you're doing the work of the oppressor for them. SM (01:26:05): Very-very well said. SW (01:26:07): Same thing like the gender issues. A woman's place is in the kitchen, not the boardroom. So the ultimate goal of that stereotype is for the woman to believe that, "Oh, I could never be a CEO. My role is in the kitchen." So, believe that, and you are made to believe that stereotype, then dominant society or male dominated society does not have to expend any effort or attention to keeping that engine going. SM (01:26:41): I think Phoebe, you know Phoebe Yang? SW (01:26:44): Yeah. SM (01:26:44): Well, Phoebe was on our campus right after she got married and before she wrote her first really big book, actually it was her second book, and she mentioned she had been a lawyer and was involved with [inaudible] Magazine. Now she's gone on to do unbelievable things, very success in everything she does. But she said she went to China and she was at a conference in China and she was in a boardroom. And they were all sitting around this table in, I think it was in China, and one of the men looked at her and said, "Can you go get me a cup of coffee?" Because he did not, she was the only female in the room. She was a lawyer too. And she said that was so prevalent in China. The attitude that men have over there toward women is go get me a cup of coffee. Well, she did not get them a cup of coffee, but that was a very revealing experience that she told our students. And here she was a lawyer at that time and all the other things, but it was perception people have of women, maybe not only here but around the world. SW (01:27:52): Well, certainly, I think so. But to represent, I think it's wrong to represent China as being more misogynistic than any other culture. Look at Italian culture. SM (01:27:52): Oh, that is true. SW (01:27:52): Or there is somehow, another popular stereotype is to show that China is more misogynistic. SM (01:27:52): Did the Asian American community, after World War II, concentrate on dealing with xenophobia and pure racism, excuse me, and pure racism, but once after years they were accepted as Americans or some people label a model minority? I think what I am getting here, because this makes us feel, I guess what I am saying here is could you describe xenophobia in America? Is it as American as apple pie? SW (01:29:02): Yeah, I think it is sort of like, as you know, the progress or the latest immigrant to arrive in America always occupies the bottom rung of the ladder. As you recall, so Chinese of course, were once the pariah race of America, but so were the Irish, right, or the Italians or whoever the latest immigrant is. Not only does the racial hatred follow them, but also, and look at the vicious stereotypes of Irish and Italians during the early 20th century. The attention spent on the kind of xenophobic energy is an American tradition certainly, but it has not always been about people of color. And the only difference is, to quote Richard Rodriguez, is that during this history in America, Western Europeans had stopped being who they were, could choose to stop being German or choose to stop being Irish. You could change your name, but people of color did not have that luxury of deciding to stop being whatever culturally ethnic roots they come from. And as you know, even in the 2008 election, America has a very, very difficult time talking about race, and still does. I find it, everybody finds it difficult to talk about race, and we still do not get it right. SM (01:31:12): Yeah, there is a professor at, I think he is at New York, is it, no, he is at Columbia. He's an Asian American professor. He has written a couple books and he said- SW (01:31:21): Yeah, Gary Okihiro. SM (01:31:24): No, I am interviewing him. No, not Gary. One other professor is Lee, Dr. Lee or Lou? Anyways, he has written a couple books about the fact that America's forgetting the issue of racism, and he was really talking about the Bush administration putting it on the back burner. So he's written some really good books. What laws were passed since World War II that have had the greatest impact on Asian Americans? SW (01:31:54): I think just, well, just prior to World War, or during World War II, 1943, they ended, Chinese Exclusion Act ended in (19)43. So that had the biggest effect on Chinese American, Chinese. And then the Immigration Act of, some people say (19)61 to (19)63, was revised a few times, but between (19)61 and (19)63, I think the Immigration Act was finally rewritten so that issues of race were removed from immigration laws. It is all about nationality rather than race. And the quotas moved up for the people for every country. In (19)43, when immigration was relaxed or Exclusion Act ended for Chinese, the quota was just, I forgot what it was, 109 per year. So effectively, it was still on, or 105 I think per year, and then there were lots of exclusions to that. So, after World War II, Congress had to pass the War Brides Act, and then after that they had passed the GI Finances Act. And then in (19)53, what is it, the Cable Act. I am a little fogged here, copies for quite a while, but '53 race was removed as a bar to immigration. So, I think all of those things. SM (01:34:08): And Brown was very important too, Brown versus Board of Education? SW (01:34:13): Oh yeah, Brown versus Board of Education. SM (01:34:15): And the (19)64, (19)65 civil rights bills? SW (01:34:18): Obviously, the Civil Rights Act, ending second classes citizenship for at least the outward, obvious second class citizenship. And also after World War II, for Asian Americans, World War II actually gave them the opportunity to leave their ethnic community. Hawaiian Americans could leave the plantation and join the army. Asian Americans who were in the Army got the GI Bill, et cetera, et cetera. So the same thing that was happening for women in the workplace was happening now for, I think, minorities. All people of color found opportunity during and after World War II. SM (01:35:24): Who are the best writers, the books that you really liked, that had an impression upon you when you were younger in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s, (19)80s say, that personally had an influence on you? And then if there is any Asian American writers who think that people need to read this if they really want to understand the Asian American community, not only in the past, but now. SW (01:35:56): Well, it is interesting. I mean, when I was at Berkeley, I think I was 20, I decided I wanted to be a writer. And I remember thinking to myself at the very moment that I decided that, I also realized I was the only Asian American writer I knew in the world. I could not name one, and no teacher, no high school teacher had even mentioned the name of one, or no college professor ever mentioned the name of an Asian American writer or assigned a book by an Asian American writer. And I remember going to my American literature professor and asking him, "I am interested in Asian American literature. Can you suggest a book?" SM (01:36:50): And what year was this? SW (01:36:50): This was in 1970. SM (01:36:50): Unbelievable. SW (01:36:55): And I decided, well, I got to do this on my own because I cannot be, somebody must have published something before me. I went and started researching the field and I ran into a couple of other young people who were my age or a little bit older, Frank Chin, and Jeffrey Chan and Lawson Inada, and the four of us started looking for Asian American literature for all sort of young writers, pretty much unpublished. And we found them; we found these books. They were out of print. They were in used bookstores, but basically outside of academia. We found these books and we ended up publishing the first Asian American literature anthology in 1974, and it basically started the study of Asian American literature. You read any sort of literary lit crit work on Asian American literature, they always mention our anthology. And at the beginning, they also take exception to our point of view, which is healthy. SM (01:38:16): And that is really when Asian studies was starting right then too, correct? SW (01:38:20): And so I always say I became a professor by accident because I just wanted to be a writer. And I thought, well, I will end up being a waiter for the rest of my life, or taxi cab driver, like most artists. And when I came out of school, I went to undergraduate school, I went to graduate school in creative writing back in San Francisco State, and while I was in graduate school, ethnic studies departments were just starting. And there was a job at Mills College and- There was a job at Mills College and we had a brand-new ethnic studies department, so I applied for the job. I had no graduate degree yet, no teaching experience whatsoever, and no publications. They asked me, they interviewed me and said, what can you teach? I said, I can teach a class in Asian American literature and only one other person, my colleague Jeff Chan, was teaching a class at the state on the subject in the entire country. They said, you are hired. SM (01:39:06): Wow, that is good. SW (01:39:06): And I was sitting there thinking, wow, do I really want this job? I was working as a gardener at the time. I think I was making more money, and then I noticed that Mills College was an all-female college and I was 22. SM (01:39:06): Oh. SW (01:39:06): I said, I think I will start my academic career. But it's funny, I tell people I started my academic career teaching a subject I had to teach myself, that I did not learn that at university. SM (01:40:17): That is a story in itself. SW (01:40:18): Then we published the first anthology of Asian American literature. It was Published by Howard University Press, and African American publishers were the first ones to recognize Asian American literature. They published our anthology, published my first novel, Homebase, they published my second anthology. So Asian American publishers, I mean African American publishers, were quick to understand where Asian American literature stood. After our anthology came out, Aiiieeeee, it was reviewed everywhere. It was astounding, the reception. We did not think anything like that would happen. It was reviewed in Rolling Stone, New York Times, and Dr. Robert Polls wrote an essay about it in the New Yorker. There I was in my early twenties, and all I was trying to do was legitimize the field of literature I wanted to go into. SM (01:41:49): That is- SW (01:41:49): I am trying to educate the readers to something called Asian American literature. SM (01:41:49): That could be a movie. SW (01:41:49): Which I would eventually belong to, tried to belong to. SM (01:41:50): It is interesting because as an Asian American you were not able to find anybody who knew anything about Asian American writers or Asian writers per se. When I think of my first contact with learning anything about Asia or any of the countries in that part of the world, I think of Pearl Buck. I think of Graham Green and Tom Dooley. I do not know if you know all three of them. SW (01:42:15): Yep. SM (01:42:15): Because Tom Dooley was over in Vietnam in the (19)50s, and he was on Jack Paar's show, and, of course, Pearl Buck's right from Bucks County here, and she wrote some things. Now only until Dr. Takaki, we had him on our campus, bless his soul. His books are unbelievable. But you really have a telling true story here. SW (01:42:43): In the early (19)70s there were no books available. If you started teaching Asian American studies, there were absolutely no books, zero, available. When I taught Asian American literature, all the books had to be Xeroxed for the students. It is interesting you brought up Pearl Buck because after Nixon opened China, Pearl Buck applied for a visa to go back to China to visit the China of her youth, and the Chinese government refused her visa. In a public statement, the reason that they refused her visa was for the years and years of her distortion of the Chinese people. SM (01:43:19): Oh, wow. SW (01:43:35): It is interesting that they came out with that statement. SM (01:43:36): Wow. I know we are heading a little over. I got two more questions. SW (01:43:40): Sure. SM (01:43:43): One of the questions is I have asked everyone is the question of healing. I took a group of students to Washington DC in 1995 as part of our Leadership On the Road programs. We worked for the former senator, Gaylord Nelson, from Wisconsin, and we met nine former US Senators, and that day we met with Senator Muskie. So, the students and I came up with this question, and the question was based on, they thought, 1968 with that terrible convention and the cops and the young people, and of course the year was bad with two assassinations, and Tet, and the president, and the whole story. The question is this, due to the divisions that took place during the 1960s, the divisions between black and white, and I got, yellow was not in the question here, but divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who were against the war, those who supported the troops and were against the troops. Do you feel that the boomer generation of 70 plus million will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing from the terrible divisions that divided the nation during the time that they were young, and it's subconsciously affected them the rest of their lives? The students knew that only between five and 15 percent of the boomers were really involved in any sort of activism. So, they knew this when they were putting their question together. But there was a belief that if you lived at that time, even if you were not an activist, you were subconsciously affected by everything. So, what is your answer to that question? Do you think we as a nation or that this generation, now your part of it, is going to go to your grave or its grave, and where do you think Asian Americans are on this because all the divisions that they have had in their lives, particularly the boomer generation, as they are heading to social security now. SW (01:45:50): That is for sure. SM (01:45:51): It is unbelievable. SW (01:45:52): I think, well, I tend to be an optimist. I would say that those times, (19)68, et cetera, made us who we are. You cannot sort of say, well, I wish we had not done this, or wish we had not started UC Berkeley on fire. I think that is defined who we were, and it became part of our identity, whether or not you were actually active or not. It drew everybody in, particularly in light of the fact that everybody, because of the draft, for example, you had to have, you were actually out on the street demonstrating because of the draft, and as a young man you were part of it. You were made part of it. When you sat on the floor listening to the radio for your birthday to come up for the draft lottery- SM (01:47:06): Oh, yeah. SW (01:47:07): [inaudible] deferment. You sat there, and I remember the relief when my birthday came up 324. SM (01:47:12): You are lucky. I was 72. SW (01:47:24): And my other roommate was 348, but our third roommate was something like 36. SM (01:47:31): Oh, boy. SW (01:47:37): So, I think part of our generation is that partly you feel that tremendous relief that in one sense you had, and at the same time a guilt, in that you were suddenly you are this outspoken, vocal, committed generation, and then in one minute you were relieved from making that decision of whether you would go into the Army or go to Canada. And at the same time, you're looking at your roommate and he has to report for action physical. SM (01:48:20): Wow. SW (01:48:20): So everybody knew somebody who was at the wrong end of the ladder or had to go into the Army or died in the war. So, you struggle with the sort of dichotomy of having escaped, being escaped, having to even make a decision and being a part of your peers’ lives who had to endure the next step. SM (01:48:53): Right. SW (01:48:53): I think our generation was always, sort of had to deal with that kind of dichotomy. At the same time, I remember Tom Brokaw saying something key is that when we look at the world from our point of view of the (19)60s and (19)70s, and we look at the world as it is now, we bring our experience forward. Nobody's asking us our opinion. And he says, at the same time when we were in the (19)60s, did we ask anybody in the 1920s for their advice? SM (01:48:53): Yeah. SW (01:48:53): But we did not. SM (01:48:53): Yeah, that is true. SW (01:48:53): So, it is interesting that feel. I think we feel, or at least at times we feel, the generation that struggled to be as relevant as possible is now sort of becoming irrelevant. SM (01:50:12): Well, what Senator Muskie said is that he did not even respond to the (19)60s. People thought he would respond to the convention because he was the democratic vice-presidential running mate, and he said, "Well, we have not healed since the Civil War because of the issue of race," then he went on to talk about it. About the issue of race and the loss of lives during that war. So, thought that was interesting. Do you think the Vietnam Memorial, have you been to the Vietnam Memorial? SW (01:50:40): Oh, many times. SM (01:50:42): Yeah. What was your experience when you saw for the first time, do you think... Jan Scruggs wrote a book called, To Heal a Nation, and I have been to the Vietnam Memorial because to me it is the number one event of the entire boomer generation, Vietnam, and I feel I have to be there. So, I have been there since 1994 for Memorial Day and Veteran's Day experiencing it and trying to get a better grasp of it. And I have seen many Vietnamese there that are in the audience and walking around and thanking the American troops and so forth, and then I see many that are kind of distant and whatever, and the Hmong, I think it is the Hmong, they have been there too, as well. But what was your initial thought the first time you saw, when you walked to that granite wall? And the second part of the question, has it done anything to heal the nation from the war? SW (01:51:36): I think, you know, there were two things that struck me. Not only, it is basically everybody up there is my generation and the immensity of seeing 58,000 names inscribed on the wall. It's one thing. But at the very same time, I am also cognizant of who designed it. SM (01:51:36): Oh, yeah. SW (01:51:36): They hounded her as a young 20-year old architectural student being called all these derogatory racist things. And in the end, what I feel is what everybody feels, at the end she was right. SM (01:51:36): Mm-hmm. SW (01:51:36): Maya Lin was right. And people often ask me the standard interview question, what person would you most like to meet? And I always say, Maya Lin. I would like to meet her just to say what everybody says, I think. I just want to meet somebody who had that vision, who had that vision so young, and that she knew this was the right thing to do. I want to meet people who knew at whatever age that they knew the right thing to do. So, you feel, one, this intense loss, but you also feel that somebody did the right thing and that she's Chinese America. SM (01:53:30): Well, you reach a good point because when we are talking about women's issues too, it is interesting that two of the three statues were designed by, the wall was designed by Maya Lin, but the Women's Memorial was designed by Glenna Goodacre, and then the third design of the three-man statue, I forget his name, but that says a lot about women, too. That in a man's war... SW (01:53:55): Right. SM (01:53:58): And it was also a woman's war, and we cannot forget that. We continually forget this in history how important women were on the side of the Vietnamese. And so, women were very, and of course the nurses and the donut ladies and all the people involved on our side, so we have a tendency to make this a man's war, but it is a human war. SW (01:54:20): Right. As you know, the history of the controversy before the wall was built. SM (01:54:28): Right. SW (01:54:28): Maya Lin just had to endure all kinds of really vicious racism then. SM (01:54:38): Well, there are still people that do not like it. I interviewed a professor up in Boston who is a Vietnam vet, and he still does not like it, but there are a lot of different opinions. But I think it is unbelievable. It is the most widely attracted wall in Washington, I mean for tourists. SW (01:54:58): Yeah. I used to work for the, sit on a lot of national endowment for the arts panels in the early (19)90s. Every time I would go to DC, I would go visit the wall. SM (01:55:11): My last question then I am done, and it is real fast. And I only got about two, I think two minutes left on my tape here, two or three minutes. I am just going to list these names and neatly when I, as a white person now, as a person, and I am sure a lot of boomers if they were asked to list all besides entertainers now that have come about the last couple years or politicians, these people really stand out to me that had tremendous influences not only in the world, but in terms of... Still there? SW (01:55:46): Yeah. SM (01:55:46): And still in terms of our attitudes, Mao Zedong, Kim Yao Jung, President Thieu, Vice President Ky, Di Em, Pol Pot, the Khmer Rouge, Chiang Kai-shek, and the Dalai Lama. I just brought them up. I do not know if they have any significance, to you or... SW (01:55:46): Well, they are certainly part of all that. All those names are part of the history of the boomer generation. I think there are probably some Asian American names in there you could probably add. SM (01:55:46): Well, Senator Inoyue is another one that is... SW (01:55:46): Yeah, Daniel Inoyue and other politicians like Gary Locke, the governor of State of Washington. So, others who actually, well, Daniel, I know he is not, but you know boomer generation Asian Americans who went on to become really figural on the ground stage in any case, or at least in our eyes. SM (01:57:18): Yeah. And finally, what do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation when the best books are written 50 years from now? SW (01:57:26): I think I do not want to know. I think the desire to live a life that is relevant and respond to the things that go on around us. The injustice, simply just to be cognizant and relevant to your society, no matter when you are living, even if you are on the cusp of facing social security. SM (01:57:56): Right. SW (01:57:56): I was speaking up. SM (01:58:00): Yep. I agree. Well, that is it. Do you have any questions that you thought I was going to ask that I did not? SW (01:58:06): No, I encourage you to watch Bill Moyers, that documentary. SM (01:58:11): I have got to. I saw part of it on YouTube, but I have not been able to see the whole document. (End of Interview) Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Shawn Wong Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wong, Shawn, 1949- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Chinese American authors; Scholars; College teachers; Wong, Shawn, 1949--Interviews Description An account of the resource Shawn Wong is a Chinese American author and scholar. He received his undergraduate degree in English at the University of California at Berkeley and his Master's degree in Creative Writing at San Francisco State University. Wong was a Professor of English, Director of the University Honors Program, Chair of the Department of English, and Director of the Creative Writing Program at the University of Washington. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-08-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.210a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.210b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 228:32 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6cd4b77131dcdf17b0b6f0c0146ca42f.jpg e7737283c04b11c805ad5901475c625b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/130de7a1e448abf58dc78ac2b06dde3f.mp3 6d304b90418958f211c2bf54a046bafe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-12-28 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Fred A. (Fred Allen) Wilcox Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Fred A. Wilcox is an author of six books, peace activist, and retired associate professor in the Writing department at Ithaca College. He earned his Master's degree from the University of Iowa and his Ph.D. in English and Expository Writing from SUNY Albany."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Fred A. Wilcox is an author of six books, peace activist, and retired associate professor in the Writing department at Ithaca College. He earned his Master's degree from the University of Iowa and his Ph.D. in English and Expository Writing from SUNY Albany.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam War; Police brutality; Democratic National Convention of 1968; Eugene McCarthy; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Black Panthers; Watergate Scandal."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Post-traumatic stress disorder; Vietnam War; Police brutality; Democratic National Convention of 1968; Eugene McCarthy; Baby boom generation; Civil Rights Movement; Black Panthers; Watergate Scandal.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 213:37 Subject LCSH Authors, American; Pacifists; College teachers; Ithaca College; Wilcox, Fred A. (Fred Allen)--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Fred Wilcox Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wilcox, Fred A. (Fred Allen) ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors, American; Pacifists; College teachers; Ithaca College; Wilcox, Fred A. (Fred Allen)--Interviews Description An account of the resource Fred A. Wilcox is an author of six books, peace activist, and retired associate professor in the Writing department at Ithaca College. He earned his Master's degree from the University of Iowa and his Ph.D. in English and Expository Writing from SUNY Albany. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-28 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.209a l McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.209b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 213:37 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3c74dcd976a3ea4da8e61af8e6d96296.jpg b265bce0ccdcc0be1c6658e514ddc207 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/48b8566310ade53ddacee94ef0636504.mp3 e89cc478bfad745d02f66f79eed891ab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Chaat Smith Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Chaat Smith is a Comanche author, essayist, and curator. He wrote the books Like a Hurricane: the Indian Movement from Alcatraz to the Wounded Knee and Everything You Know about Indians Is Wrong. Smith has also lectured at the National Gallery of Art, Center for the Arts in San Francisco, and the Getty Center for the History of Art and the Humanities in Los Angeles."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13309,"3":{"1":1},"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Paul Chaat Smith is a Comanche author, essayist, and curator. He wrote the books <em>Like a Hurricane: The Indian Movement from Alcatraz to Wounded Knee</em> and <em>Everything You Know about Indians Is Wrong</em>. Smith has also lectured at the National Gallery of Art, Center for the Arts in San Francisco, and the Getty Center for the History of Art and the Humanities in Los Angeles.</span> Keywords Bobby Seale; Pete O’Neal; Black Panthers; Native American/American Indian Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee; Alcatraz; Red Power; Leonard Garment; COINTELPRO; Wounded Knee; Robert Warrior; Raymond Yellow Thunder; Trail of Broken Treaties; Vine Deloria Jr.; Independent Oglala Nation; Self-Determination Act; Bureau of Indian Affairs; Clyde Merton Warrior; LaNada Means; U2 Incident; H. Rap Brown; The Weathermen; Richard Oakes; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Comanche. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 87:01 Subject LCSH Comanche Indians; Authors; Essayists; Museum curators; Smith, Paul Chaat--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Paul Chaat Smith Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Carrie Blabac-Myers Date of interview: Not dated -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:06 SM: Testing 123. Testing 123. Testing 123. [Background comments: Great, super. I have to go back and forth here. Is that TV set on over there or? I guess I will not bother.] When you look at the boomer generation before we get into Native American boomers that is the question. The first question I want to ask is, do Native American boomers those individuals born after 1946, do they identify with this generation of young people that were involved? I know the American Indian Movement was a very important movement and from (19)69 to (19)73 but when you talk about the boomer generation, do you and do Native Americans as a whole identify with that group? 01:02 PS: Yeah, it is kind of a good question. I am trying to remember when I first was familiar with that term, the boomer generation, and like, you know what I made of it at the time, what I think of it now. So, I do not know, I cannot say. 01:22 SM: I will let you hold this and check this every so often to make sure it is working properly. I know what I am saying, but I want to make sure. 01:28 PS: Okay, this is good. 01:30 SM: Yep. 01:31 PS: Okay. So I cannot recall a lot of Indian people I know talking about themselves as boomers but you know, the changes that happened in the United States, you know, post-World War II and someone like me coming of age in the late 1960s. You know, it is clear there was a national and global phenomenon going on. But I think how people connected to that or, you know, if they felt, you know, what they had in common with other people in the same generation, I am not sure. But I think there was definitely a sense of, you know, events happening that, you know, that you are a part of that are the circumstance about, you know, global economy and national events. So I do not know, it is a funny word "boomer" right, it is like you are trying to same, you know, Generation X and Generation Y. You sort of sense, it is sort of, you know, part of this idea of naming something, you know? 02:44 SM: You state something, and in some of the things that you have written that you and your cohort when you wrote that first book, believed that what the counterculture was to white Americans and what the civil rights movement was to black Americans, the American Indian Movement was to Native Americans. And I would like to define it in two ways: number one, how important the American Indian Movement was during that four or five year period, but link it with also that the period prior too, which was "red power", which was like, because I can remember that when I was a student about the Mohawk nation up in Syracuse. They were furious about their land being taken away, and they got students from Syracuse and Binghamton. They were all working together to stop the highway from going through their land. That was Red Power. 03:37 PS: Yeah, I mean, the discussion about boomers and activism obviously overlaps hugely with the idea of the (19)60s. So one of the things that is interesting about Native activism is that, you know, the first really huge major event did not happen until one month before that decade was over. It was in November 1969, at Alcatraz. So, you know, I talked about it as us being late to the party in a way, you know. There was important activism before then and you can look at the nature, when you talk about Red Power. That was characterized by college students, native college students, who had a completely different kind of aesthetic to their, to their movement. There were people who read the New Republic, they were people who unselfconsciously called themselves intellectuals (this is like: 1964, 1965, 1966) and that was also the look of, you know, the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley, for example, you know. So those things were quite similar. In terms of people about the American Indian Movement, you know, that is an organization that was formed in 1968. But it is real impact came, you know, not really until the early (19)70s. So, you know, it is interesting to talk about the (19)60s in activism in terms of Native people and see that, you know, most of it was happening after, you know, a very powerful anti-war movement. You know, it was already established. And obviously, there were activists who were part of the anti-war movement. Some of the leaders, early leaders of the American Indian Movement, talked about being influenced by the Black Panther Party. Looking at some of the tactics they use to challenge you know, police practices in major cities. You know, people were partly you know, watching television and reading some of the same books. Yeah. 03:37 SM: Yeah, yeah, a lot of the upstate, two individuals in particular, Newt Gingrich when he came to power in 1994, and then George Will, throughout his career as a writer, always take shots. They love taking shots at the (19)60s generation, and all the activism that was taking place. And oftentimes they say that a lot of the reasons why we have the breakdown in American society today, with the unbelievable divorce rate, with the drug culture, lack of; no sense of responsibility, disliking people in positions of authority, it all goes back to that era. And basically the student activists. And those 15 percent of seventy-eight million that were involved, whether it be the anti-war movement, the women's movement, Native American movement, Chicano, the environmental, all those individuals gay and lesbian, all the ones that were in the movements. They like to blame them. Of course, generalizations are not good but when you hear that, when you see someone writing about that, even when you think of AIM, it is really attacking AIM too. What are your thoughts? As people reflected on those times today? They like, everybody likes to place blame on things. 07:30 PS: Yeah. I think there was a great deal of ̶ there was ̶ There was a lot going on. So I think, you know, there was at times, a sense of self-congratulation and hype about, you know, the (19)60s, about activism about the counterculture and for me, I think one of the important things to look at the Indian Movement was to take kind of a more dispassionate examination of that. To really try to see what, what the consequences actually were. And, you know, something like AIM or the Panthers or the anti-war movement become so polarized. You know, it is very hard to actually have the kind of conversation, you know that I think we need. So, so the American Indian Movement was for a couple of years by far the most influential and popular quasi-organization and there are implications of it, you know, thirty years later. So, I have been interested as somebody that was part of it towards the end of it is, you know, successful years to take you know, to take a hard look at all of that. The consequences of it. One of the reasons that Robert Warrior and I wrote our book "Like a Hurricane", was that we would meet people like, he was teaching at Stanford, I think then and he would meet Indian students whose parents had actually been activists in AIM and all they really knew about AIM was, you know, a movie like Thunder Heart, you know, with Val Kilmer or just a lot of representations that, you know, not even an issue what they are being correct or not, but just obviously very superficial and coming from a different place. So it is a lot about trying to look at that history more seriously, and engage it. So you know, we saying clearly that we are just, you know, extraordinary heroism and bravery and intelligence, and fantastically stupid decisions, a culture of thuggishness, you know, certainly took hold. And I think all those things have to be looked at, you know. I do not know I mean to talk about like, blaming these movements, you know, for things that are going on today. I do not know what that is really what interest that really serves. But I think taking those movements really seriously looking at all the sacrifices that people made, looking at what actually was accomplished. You know, that is sort of what, you know, I was trying to do with that project. 09:27 SM: You okay? When you say 'thuggishness' was that? Would that be what happened to the Students for Democratic Society when they became violent? When the Black Panthers, although they were Bob (Seale) and (Pete) O'Neal's program, there is a lot of people that consider them a violent group and they took guns. Is that what you are saying about the Native American movement? AIM, in the beginning, and then it changed toward the end? It became even much more militant? 10:43 PS: Yeah, I guess it is similar in some ways, you know. AIM as opposed to SDS, you know, never was a real organization. Anybody could join at any time. There were like five different national leaders, you know, a national chairman, a president, an executive director, things like that. So, so you could not have any real accountability in that situation but there was certainly, you know, an element that really believed in armed struggle, you know, that really believed in, you know, the kind of, the kind of, I guess without the discipline of the Weathermen or something but certainly, you know, there were elements of AIM that really relate to guns, you know. 11:23 SM: Your upbringing. Where were you born? And at what moment? Were your parents, the ones really, obviously young people are finding their friends. But then there comes a point as a young person, you are starting to identify with one's culture. Who was the most influential person in your life in say, those first ten to fifteen years? Who influenced you the most? And you became sensitized to issues of Native Americans. 11:50 PS: Me and my two sisters, we were all born in West Texas, although we have virtually no memory of it because my family moved to Upstate New York briefly, so my dad could get a doctorate at Cornell. But we, both my parents are from Oklahoma. My dad, a white guy who actually is now an enrolled Choctaw. My mom Comanche. So I know we were very connected with Oklahoma. They sort of hated Oklahoma, which is why they wanted to leave, but then we always went back. So this was, you know, growing up in the 1960s. It was because we mostly me and my sisters who mostly lived in Washington, DC, but we were pretty connected with Oklahoma. So when I was growing up, my grandfather, my mom's Dad, you know, he still was minister of the Comanche Reformed Church, and they still did certain church services in ̶ and Comanche so it is not like I was disconnected from that. I was not around it all the time. But it was before the sort of cultural renewal, you know, really took off in the later (19)60s. So it was not, there is something very Oklahoma about it and that you know, this church that had been around since the turn of the century. And, you know, you see all these pictures, you see all this history of it. But it is not like my mother's side of the family talked about the old days in any particular narrative of either struggle or resistance or anything, you know, my mom, so my mom's brothers were in the military in World War II. They could not, none of none of my mom or siblings could go to like powwows or anything like that. And, you know, it is was like a lot of the US and the world was at that time, you know, the middle of the 20th century, which was not about us hanging on to our language, no matter what, let us keep our ceremonies, you know, let us do all that. And so now we pretend that we always were like that, but that is just not really true. Certainly not a place like Oklahoma. So, I would say for me and my sisters, you know, coming of age in the late (19)60s you are influenced by all kinds of things. And we certainly were. So all of us were, you know, all of us connected with, you know, seeing world in different ways. For me, it was politics for my younger sister it was going to Institute of American Indian Arts, Santa Fe. My sister also worked at Indian organizations for some graduate studies. So we were part of that. I think that is where a lot of people learn, like that. 14:23 SM: [Inaudible for a minute] Testing one, two. That is better. 15:13 PS: It seems better to me. What is wrong with it? Sounds fine. 15:15 SM: I do not know why I did that. 15:17 PS: Oh okay. 15:17 SM: It is a different tape. I am going to hold it here and I will double check a hook or something. Okay, we are talking about Alcatraz. 15:27 PS: Right, Alcatraz. 15:28 SM: Why? What was its purpose and what were its goals? And how important was it with respect to the American Indian Movement? 15:39 PS: Well, Alcatraz came about because the United States closed its maximum security prison on the island. So it became a question of what would happen, you know, to this amazing piece of real estate with all those gorgeous views of San Francisco Bay. And so there were various ideas of luxury housing and some kind of a resort and all these things that were not very practical because Alcatraz was, you know, the most secure prison in the country for a really good reason which is very difficult to get there. So the idea of having condominiums there and a shopping center and all that was not very realistic. And so the urban Indian community in the Bay Area, thought you know, well actually, we should get Alcatraz. So there were California Indian folks that had been pursuing various you know, actions towards redress for many years. The Urban Indian Center in San Francisco that had suffered a disastrous fire so they needed a place, and you know, everybody's talking about Alcatraz in the Bay Area. So all of that turned into a ̶ you know, a few dozen college students organizing a takeover on the island. This was in November 1969. So landing on, you know, getting those from Sausalito to be on Alcatraz overnight, you know, was an adventure but not incredibly hard to do. What really changed the event was the fact that it was because it was federal property it became a first a General Services Administration issue and then it went to the White House on how to handle these protesters. And Richard Nixon at that point, the new president, you know, was sort of shopping for a model minority, a minority group where he could, you know, build a good record. So, he had these high level advisors, one of them was Leonard Garment that saw an opportunity to, you know, be in dialogue with these protesters to explore possibilities for the administration to show their good faith for this minority group. So it all could have ended in a day or two. But the decision by the Nixon White House to actually negotiate with the occupiers, turned it into a very different thing and elevated the event to a whole other level. So it actually lasted for a year and a half, the occupation. And so it got, it never got the kind of attention people want to remember it as getting. It was, you know, it was in the national news maybe once or twice. It was a big story in the Bay Area for quite a while. It was, you know, like a lot of like a lot of the activism that Robert Warrior and I talked about in your book, it was sort of heroic and smart, and also badly planned. For there is a period of months in which people talked about it as a Lord of the Flies situation. You know, it is sort of the downside of having this wonderfully open movement that anybody can join. It means you get, you know, criminals and drug dealers and thugs being part of it. And very idealistic people. So it was that kind of a mixed bag. But I guess what was so startling about it was the idea that Indians would do something like that. Would occupy, would break the law and occupy federal territory. I think for a lot of Native people had internalized this idea that we would never do something like that. And so it was kind of amazing to a lot of Indian people. Apart from the particular demands, or who the groups were; the individuals, it was just wow, Indians did that. That's pretty amazing. 19:48 SM: Was it mostly boomers was mostly young, Native Americans? I know. I am just reading a couple of the names. The one young man ended up dying that was the leader, the guy that swam in or? 20:06 PS: Yeah, sort of the leader of the group was Richard Oakes. His daughter died during the occupation in an accident. He was, and Oakes himself was killed seven years later, in a separate, in a separate event. 20:22 SM: Did the federal government really make a rough on the AIM leaders? Yeah, because the federal government and Richard Nixon was spying on anybody and that was an activist at the time. Did you feel the pressure within AIM that the government was watching you and every move that you were making? 20:40 PS: Yeah, by the early (19)70s. Clearly. Especially after Wounded Knee, it was sort of no secret that, you know, the FBI considered, you know, AIM a very dangerous organization. I mean, they would say so in public press conferences and you know, the COINTELPRO tactics that were used on other movements were certainly use against a AIM in the (19)70s. Without a doubt. 21:09 SM: That was pretty intimidating. Did that, did those activities and what they said about the leaders carry on beyond the (19)60s? In other words, they made life miserable for them ongoing? Because of their involvement? 21:24 PS: I mean, I think the period in which, you know, the US government really focused on AIM was certainly through most of the (19)70s. For sure, yeah. 21:35 SM: In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? 21:38 PS: I would say, it began 11/22/(19)63. And I would say it ended in 1975. 22:14 SM: Is that because we ended our involvement in Vietnam, is that the - 22:21 PS: I would say that, and other things. Yeah, I guess I mean, it is always really artificial. But yeah. 22:38 SM: Is there one event that you feel had the greatest impact on Native American boomers in their lifetime? Particularly when they were young? 22:46 PS: I do not know what that would be? I cannot think of one. 23:06 SM: Can you think of one? What was the one event that shaped you more than any other? 23:10 PS: I would say, less at the exact time but I think the Wounded Knee occupation in (19)73 just because out of that, I ended up a year later, going out to South Dakota. But I did not know much about it at the time. And so it is sort of more in retrospect. But that certainly was a major event for me and you know, a lot of other people. But I think those are people who are more inclined to activism in the first place. You know? 23:43 SM: Why was Wounded Knee the event? How did that? You had Alcatraz. You had the incident in Washington with the Bureau of Indian Affairs. You had them obviously many other activities and events. But that one. What made that stand out? 24:07 PS: Well, you know, just as Alcatraz was startling because you had Indians willing to actually, you know, break the law destroy government property. This was Indians actually taking over a town, you know, and occupying it and holding off, you know, Federal Marshals. So again, that was like an electrifying idea that that could be happening. The idea that you would, you know, take such measures to call attention to what conditions were like on Pine Ridge Reservation which were desperate. You know, all that was, it was like: Indians are really doing this? This is amazing. 24:53 SM: Is there? When you look at not only Native American boomers but boomers as a whole. I mean, you cannot generalize again. But where there are certain characteristics that were positive or certain characteristics that were negative toward this generation? Particularly emphasizing the 15 percent that were activists; which is pretty cool, almost eighteen million people, when you think of the numbers. What were the strengths and weaknesses in your eyes? 25:26 PS: One of the things that was interesting about the Indian Movement that I knew as somebody who came out in (19)74 to South Dakota, so this was a year after the Wounded Knee occupation. Years after Alcatraz. And, you know, really appeared in which that was the year that Nixon resigned. That was the year that, you know, the Vietnam war, at far as US involvement was winding down in terms of the number of Americans in combat, not necessarily in terms of deaths or anything. But you know, in a sense that was late. And the Indian Movement always had this amazing variety of people actively involved. Which was not really as true of a lot of other movements. So you had so many older people, and you had so many like children, you know, throughout all these age groups. Of course, there were examples of that in other movements, but even some of the key leadership of AIM, they were actually, you know, in the early (19)70s, they were in their mid-(19)30s. Some of them. So they were older. But, but some of the most influential people were actually in their ̶ you know, (19)60s or (19)70s; elders who were very influential. And you would see little kids everywhere. Babies everywhere. All that. So I think that was kind of striking. 26:57 SM: It is a lot different than some of the others. 26:59 PS: Yeah, it was. It was. 27:03 SM: I know Dr. King tried to get younger people into his civil rights but he was criticized heavily for doing that by fellow African Americans who felt like what are you putting young fifteen and sixteen year olds under that kind of pressure? Yeah, but he was trying to do it. And I know the women's movement had some of the babies by their sides and stuff. But I cannot think of too many other movements, seeing kids at. 27:25 PS: Yeah, yeah and I mean you look at photographs and moving images of some of the key events. You see that. How, how diverse in terms of age, the Indian movement was. 27:40 SM: The issues oftentimes when you look at Native American issues, in the (19)50s, (19)60s and beyond, some things are striking. You see all the broken treaties. Of course the treaties have been historically broken for a long time, way back to Ulysses Grant, you know, the breaking of treaties. People went to plead the case that treaties were being broken. We certainly had poverty and a lot of various issues of alcoholism. Do you find that it is when people write about Native Americans, that they, they seem to dwell on the negative sometimes as opposed to the positive? And that is what the AIM, the American Indian Movement, really in the end was about empowerment? Not letting others dictate to us, we can dictate to them. 28:30 PS: Hmm. Yeah, it was about empowerment. Definitely. Definitely. I think for me, the main flaw of the Indian Movement was, you know, an inability to articulate some kind of strategic vision on what we are actually going to try to win. So the movement was great at highlighting a specific incident, like when a guy named Raymond Yellow Thunder, you know, was killed at the Dakota/Nebraska border and basically nobody cared. You know, Indian organizations did not care, the government did not care, the tribal governments did not care. You know, it was great at mobilizing people on behalf of somebody like Raymond Yellow Thunder. But not that anything about the civil rights movement was easy, obviously none of it was. But an issue like voting rights, an issue like fair housing, you know, segregation. Those were issues that affected you know, most African Americans in the US in a huge way. And that you could, you know, actually have a solution, not a revolutionary solution, but you could actually do that. A lot of the issues that community cycle and the Pine Ridge Reservation face were you know, are incredibly complex and often not really similar to other reservations, let alone Indians who live in cities. So in other words for the Indian Movement to say you know something under the tiller, is a voting rights, is it fair housing? What were those demands? Sure. People could, you know, talk all about you know, you have broken our treaties. Okay you have broken our treaties. Now what. What exactly? Those were the things that were very difficult. Probably the moment that the Indian Movement came closest to that was the, the 1972 Trail of Broken Treaties caravan that came here to Washington in which, there was you know, they had some significant you know, tribal government folks, people like Vine Deloria Jr. all saying look, here are these twenty points that should be a starting point for real discussion to deal with these things. They were not just demands they we were saying let us have an engagement. So that was a moment that there was something you could actually talk about. At Wounded Knee, you know, when you declare yourself the Independent Oglala Nation, sovereign from the US, you are not really going to have much of a discussion, right? That is a pretty extreme position. The Trail of Broken Treaties, of course, blew up and practically resulted in the firebombing of the Bureau of Indian Affairs building on the eve of Nixon's reelection. So, you know, the smart work some people had done to develop this program was eclipsed by almost being this catastrophe. 31:38 SM: Do you feel Richard Nixon used the Native Americans particularly in the American Indian Movement, because from the very beginning, he wanted to work with them, and then it became very hard? Because Law and Order was such a big issue in America and he was going to stop the protests. Do you think? Do you feel that they were used? 32:01 PS: You know, I think that is kind of what Robert Warrior and I were hoping to find out. That our search of you know, archives and talking with, you know, government officials and, other folks. We did not really find evidence that this was of any real concern to Nixon himself much at all, then. You know, this was, there was a lot going on. There were these high level senior aides that did have this idea, this political project of saying, Nixon's really good on Indians and in fact, if you talk to virtually any Indian, people that look at this closely, they will say, and I am sure this will be startling to many of your readers that Nixon is the best president for Indians of the 20th century. 32:47 SM: Why? That would be! That is, that is a magic moment, really. 32:52 PS: Because of the Self-Determination Act in 1970 which basically said we are going to reverse this policy; or informally sort of reverse assimilation and termination. It granted, you know more rights to tribal governments and said we will engage tribal governments. And it also specifically returned certain lands to Native People. Like Blue Lake for the Taos Pueblo and all of that. So, in terms of a policy point of view, I mean, you could say that it just shows how terrible all of the other presidents have been, and certainly it does not change what the FBI did in terms of activism. But in terms of the big picture of policy, you know, you could get almost in any Indian and say who was a better president than Richard Nixon? And I think very few would come up with a name. 33:48 SM: I cannot live in your shoes. One thing to learn early on, I was involved in a lot of anti-war stuff, but you cannot be in someone's shoes. And the thing is, it is the fact that all the land in this country was Native American, basically. You know, and, and, of course, now the reservations, and of course, there is gambling and so forth. Some things have changed, that are positive. You mentioned that at the end of your book. But still, it is got to be pretty upsetting, isn't it still? To know that this really, all belonged to Native Americans and it was the white man that really – that is all the white man has really seemed to do. 34:35 PS: Yeah. It is kind of crummy. That is true. 34:42 SM: Yeah, it is um, you mentioned that the American Indian movement still has an influence today. What was, what was the lasting influence that, that activism, whether it be Red Power, or American Indian Movement has had the Native American community? As boomers you know, Native American boomers are now reaching sixty-two, they are like, all the other boomers. What is the lasting effect of that activism? 35:09 I think it is, I think it is ambivalent. I do not think there is; I do not think the Indian community in the US has made up its mind yet about it. I think their kind of popular cultural references are still pretty, are what a lot of people know. I have heard many people who are not part of this activism, and many folks in the US talk about how, this museum would not exist without a ̶ you know, that they feel for all the faults of a you know, a lot of what that activism really was about was invisibility. About nobody even knowing that we are here. About being completely ignored. About being in the past. So whatever else AIM did, it certainly said, look, we are still here. And it says something else: we are not who you think you are. We are not who you think we are. That you imagine that we are, you know, just completely peace-loving and would never, you know, take over a building or a town. And it was a shock to see that some Indians would do that. So, you know, it is interesting that many people who are not big fans of AIM, would say this building would not exist without that activism. 35:09 SM: Then this, this is kind of the lasting legacy then, really. 35:48 PS: Yeah, I mean, you know, in a way that museum is a little bit like Alcatraz, where it is this moment that comes up that all of a sudden there is this island. What happened with this building was that in the late (19)80s, the largest single intact collection of Native material, a museum called The Museum of the American Indian in New York, all of a sudden was kind of up for grabs. So the Smithsonian, the American Museum of Natural History and Ross Perot actually all tried to get hold of this. So, in other words, without that collection, whatever the mysterious way countries decide to take seriously like slavery in the US for example, which is ̶ in many ways, or look seriously at Indians. It would not have been enough without that collection being there. The Smithsonian was not going to open this building without material, right? So it forced that. So it is kind of an interesting confluence of things. But clearly people would say the activism that pushed this, even you know, when people took over Alcatraz, they talked about a museum being there. They talked about a school and job center and all that. But they talked about a museum. You know, at BIA, there was a museum in that building. A huge number of artifacts that were on display. And even at Pine Ridge, at Wounded Knee in the village of Wounded Knee, there was a little trading post, Wounded Knee museum. So there is this thread of museums to kind of go through this activism. So in that sense, I think there is a real connection with the existence of the ̶ and the American Indian, and the activism going back to the 1960s. 38:24 SM: I think one of the important things that you bring out in your book is that you really define those, the top activists. We all know about the two that most Americans know about is Dennis Banks and Russell Means and they are in the (19)60s history books. But the thing is what you bring up Clyde Warrior, Hank Adams, Richard Oakes, LaNada Means and certainly Dennis Banks and Russell Means. Why is it important that these names must be known by American students today when we talk about the (19)60s and the (19)70s and post-World War II America? Because I do not think I have to tell you that our students do not know a whole lot about history, period. How important were these people? And what? Where would the Native movement been without those six people? 39:21 PS: Well I was thinking about when you said most Americans know Russell Means and Dennis Banks I was wondering what Americans you are talking about. 39:24 SM: [laughs] 39:28 PS: Because I think actually, very few people, you know, really would know those names or know the American Indian Movement at all actually. I mean, that is, that is a huge thing everybody is looking at now, is, right? How much Americans know about their own history? Was the Korean War before after the Civil War? We want to know the answer, right? But for me to answer your question, I think it is about how in 1967 let us say, a lot of really smart folks looking at this situation probably would have predicted yeah, there is going to be an interesting Indian Movement, that is going to be much larger than it is now. And I think almost everybody would have said it is going to be led by students. Because look at the (19)60s, look at how students were at the forefront of the anti-war movement. Of much of the Civil Rights movement students were extremely important. And you had these people like the ones you are mentioning, Mel Tom and, you know, Hank Adams all these people who came out who and identified as students - 40:44 SM: LaNada Means. I mean! 40:46 PS: Yeah, that is right. 40:47 SM: I did not know much about her, but boy, people should know about her! If you were to even ask boomers when they went off to college: name Native Americans that you know, and that is my, you know, our generation. Obviously, they would know from the history books about Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse and some of the big name Native Americans. But the one that would probably come to the forefront would be Jay Silverheels because he was the sidekick of the Lone Ranger. It is just amazing! Jay Silverheels was the most well-known Native American in the (19)50s! 40:51 PS: Right, right. So you have all these people who, almost all of which were students and were student activists and wrote and all that. And yet, what emerged was AIM. Which was basically nothing like that. There were a few students there, but it was led by these older folks, you know, who were much tougher. Much different. Not in their twenties. And had a much rowdier kind of base of urban Indian folks and Reservation folks. You know, that was pretty prevalent. You came from a poor background, you are pretty privileged if you are going to school in California University system in 1967 or eight, you know, you are in a good situation, comparatively. So anyway, it was interesting to look at that to see how unpredictable history is. And how different this was, and I am sure if I had been there in (19)67, I would have predicted that students are going to be decisive but it was not students at all. It was people with criminal records or, you know, people who were, you know, Dennis Banks was somebody, an executive at Honeywell Corporation for a while. So it makes it fascinating when you realize how, in retrospect, it was predetermined but you know, if you put yourself back at that time, how unlikely it was that AIM would look like what it was. And how sad it is that the kind of intellectualism that a lot of the student movements had in the Indian world was kind of lost. People wrote long, thoughtful letters to each other and, you know, tried to keep abreast of, you know, things going on elsewhere in the world in a different way. By the time Mean came along, it was not that cool to be reading a book for a while, you know. So you always want to know these things to not have to give up one for the other, you know. Yeah, that is right. He was. He was very famous. 43:07 SM: Yeah. Then there was another one that was on the Walt Disney show had the advertisement with a tear coming down, he was in a lot of Disney movies. 43:13 PS: Right, right. 43:14 SM: That was that was the other one too. 43:15 PS: A commercial. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. It is funny, there were some Vietnam vets who were part of Wounded Knee, you know. On the AIM side. And they used their skills. You know, it was so different from now, it was a draft, right? So took a lot of effort or pull to not to get drafted. I think it is curious that there is a, there is a mythology, this is in my mind, a mythology has been built up about how special it is that we are, you know, that a traditional concept of warriors, you know, is used by even us to talk about us being in the US military. Because I do not think Indians in the US military were any different than anybody else. And I think the notion that there is almost an exemption, I think a lot of people that would like, not want a discussion about the horrible things white soldiers did in Vietnam, that you would not hold Indians to the same standards. How that would be different. It is interesting, we go to powwows and very common to have a special ceremony for veterans and of course I think veterans should be treated with respect, you know, they made a sacrifice for their country, but it is almost like a complete denial that while they were serving the United States in Iraq or in Vietnam and that somehow the idea that you are Indian makes it that does not really matter because you are really some kind of sovereign soldier or something like that. So I do not know that would be that is, that is a certain kind of invention, I think, in the US Indian world about that you can think how wonderful it is our soldiers went there and again, beyond disrespecting their service that they did this, although in some cases, they did not have a choice because they would go to prison if they did not, and do things all other soldiers are supposed to do. But it is so special and cool because they are Indian. I think it was, you know, difficult for everybody who was in a place like Vietnam. But I think somehow we have been kind of, you know, something was being created about Indians in that war in particular, you know, that I think is suspect to me. 43:16 SM: I have got to. This is coming out fine this time, let us hope. The question I have is about Vietnam veterans. Now, I have just gotten a hold of Mr. Holm. I do not know, Tom Holm who has written books on Native Americans from the west coast. He is in Arizona. And he has got a book that was written on Native Americans who served in the Vietnam War. There were a lot of Native Americans who served our country in that war. And a lot of them came back and we have had a couple on our campus over the years talking about the experiences of coming back to America. Your thoughts on the Vietnam veteran, Native American Vietnam veterans, who served their country and what they came home to. I have some things that I will share with you, but I want your, basically your feelings, on those. That is because there is a lot of them on the wall. A lot of Native Americans on the Vietnam Memorial. I know that when they dedicated the property over there, where they are going to build the underground center. A very well-known Native American Vietnam vet was there. He heads the organization. And he was very close to Jan Scruggs, and everything. I do not remember his name. But I know Paul Critchlow from Merrill Lynch in New York was the only white man that was ever allowed into the organization because they fought side by side in Vietnam. And finally, they allowed this one white man to be a warrior. One of the perceptions that you read about amongst Native Americans - How are we doing time wise? Because 4:30 is when we are done. 47:23 PS: Yeah. 47:25 SM: I got to go to another, this thing better be working. I will bring a second one the next time we are going to be dropping them. The Vietnam Memorial, Native Americans, oh, the perception when you read in the books on Vietnam, is that many Native American Vietnam vets or soldiers were put on the front. They were the ones that were at the very front because they felt they were supposed ̶ a stereotypical attitude that says they can 'track'. So they will put them on point. 48:02 PS: Right, right, right. 48:03 SM: And a lot of them died. 48:04 PS: Yeah, yeah. Because they were not magical so a lot of them died. 48:07 SM: You have heard that before then? 48:09 PS: I never heard of it in a way that necessarily trust it. I mean, I will give you another example the idea that Mohawks have special ability about heights because they worked high steel, right? Famously, many of them worked high steel. I met some of them, you know? They said, you know, help put up this bridge or you know, this building. But, you know, they were, they were highly paid industrial workers who were happy to come to New York and do this and, and they did not have any particular ability about heights. They did not have any special skill about heights, they were like people who needed work, we are glad to do it. Maybe they let people think that. Or maybe some of them believe it themselves. But it gets really kind of silly to think that they were you know geniuses on high steel, or that, you know, because you have Native ancestry you knew how to track in a jungle in Indochina. That is a little - 49:12 SM: Vietnam veterans, no matter what background they came from, we were not treated very nice when they came home to America. 49:18 PS: No. 49:19 SM: All of them were not even welcome at the Veterans of Foreign Wars. If you were a Vietnam vet, no matter what your background, we do not want you. Now they are 80 percent of the organization. But at that particular time, they were not welcome, because there were all these perceptions out there: they were baby killers and all the other thing is My Lai. Things like that. And that was so far from the truth. But in the Native American Vietnam vets that, you know, I know you cannot generalize, but how are they treated upon their return? Not only by Americans as a whole, but by Native Americans? Their peers. Were they held in higher respect because they had served their country? Or did some of the older Native Americans, or some of their peers did not show respect for them because they went to war? 50:07 PS: It is hard to say. I mean, I could think of a few examples, but they seem so singular. I would not know how to characterize, that. I am sure a lot of the same attitudes everyone else had were the same. I think for a lot of in the twentieth century, a lot of Indians joined the military. You know, for the same reason other people who, you know, are economically disadvantaged do. As I said earlier. You know, my mom's family, all of her brothers were in World War II. So there is a tradition of that. So, it might be a little different than other communities where people felt they had more choice or born automatically, you know, expected to be in the military. 50:59 SM: These are general questions right now. One of the general questions is all the other movements that were taking place at that time, the anti-war, the Native American, which we already talked about the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, certainly in the environmental movement, and the civil rights movement. Were Native Americans, were they connected to those movements? Did they did they attend the rallies for those movements? And the second part of my question, because one of the things that comes up, that is why I believe this name "Means", the female, is very important, because there is a lot of sexism within the within all the all the movements. In civil rights and anti-war it was rampant. Was there sexism within the Native American movement where women were second class citizens, so to speak? Or, there were not very many in leadership roles? 51:58 PS: One of the informal logos that was very common for AIM was actually a version of the Playboy logo. So that spoke to a certain sexism within AIM. That was absolutely true. One of the things that is a little bit different is that there were very strong women leaders in AIM, but they were overwhelmingly related to some of the well-known leaders, some of the guys. You know, more sexist than SNCC? I do not, I cannot really assess that. But I would say the nature of it was that you probably had a lot more women in key activist positions than maybe in some of the other groups. But I think a lot of the sexism that we see in other organizations was, was similar to what happened and what was true in AIM. 53:02 SM: And were more most of them were women leaders mostly older as opposed to boomer age, which were younger? Like the young man who was kind of the leader of Alcatraz? He was like twenty-two years old. Were there any women that were twenty-two that were like him? 53:19 PS: In the Dakotas there were a number of women activists that I worked with that were in their twenties, mid-twenties, even thirty that were very key activists in the movement, yeah. 53:32 SM: This is a question that I have asked everyone. There is two basic questions that I have tried to get at. One of them is the concept of healing. Whether we are still a nation that has a problem with healing, particularly within the boomer generation, as now they are heading into Social Security age that they are going live another twenty years, boomers are not going to die easy. But your thoughts on whether we as a nation have a problem with healing from all the divisions that took place in America, at that time. Not only the division between black and white, male and female, could be a Native American or white, a white man it could be for the troops, against the troops. All those issues. Because we went through the riots, we went through all these issues through and (19)68 and all those things that happened. And the reason I am asking you is, I took a group of students’ right here at DC about nine years ago to meet Edmund Muskie, the former senator before he died from Maine who actually ran for vice president. We asked him that question, because the students wanted to know they saw (19)68 and they said, man, we close to a civil war that year? And because they were not born then. He responded by saying we have not healed since the Civil War, let alone (19)68. So he would not even talk about (19)68. Your thoughts on whether we as an; whether the boomer generation, which includes Native Americans, all boomers all seventy-eight million of them are going to head to their graves with issues or problems with healing. Of course some people do not even think about this but some might. Particularly the 15 percent of the activists who tried to make a difference in this world. Do you think we have a problem with healing? Is there a problem of healing in the Native American community? 55:27 PS: I do not know. It feels like part of the human condition maybe. I do not know. It feels, um, I do not know that this country or this generation is great at it but I do not know who is. 55:46 SM: The people that were involved in that very important movement from (19)69 to (19)73 as they have gotten older, not only the people who were old, the pre-boomers, but people like yourself and boomers after (19)46 they know that they are going to pass someday. And it is only going to be the history of that particular period. Do they worry that? Do they still have some problems with the groups of the people they were having problems with back then? 56:20 PS: I know there are a lot of people on Pine Ridge, where Wounded Knee took place (19)73, you know where it is, like ten thousand people then, I guess, but it is basically small enough that everybody knows everybody. And some of them leave but most of them do not. So that is a case where, I do not know there have been real efforts of reconciliation between people who were, you know, really mortal enemies. People really killed each other, you know, after Wounded Knee for a while. And you know, people in that context really tried to come terms with things. I cannot really speak to that in terms of, you know, I was never in a situation where I was in a place like that where you are, you know, community based and dealing with that over time. 57:19 SM: Do you think people would even come here to this facility? Some, especially Native Americans, who from all over the country might finally get that chance to come here to Washington see this facility that not only does it bring pride to their culture, but it is also a little bit of healing too? From maybe some of the frustrations and may have seen in the past? 57:44 PS: A lot of native visitors feel different things here. I do not know. I guess maybe some people would talk about it as beginning the process of healing of reconciliation. You know, the biggest moment for this museum was when it opened in September 2004. Something like twenty thousand people - 58:12 SM: Saw it on TV. 58:12 PS: Yeah, that was this huge moment. And, you know, it felt great, you know. What happens the next day? How does, you know, the museum actually work beyond being a symbol beyond being just affirmation and pride. You know, that is a more difficult question I think. 58:33 SM: And Bill Clinton was late too, was not he? Very late. He got criticized for that, because the White House is not very far from here. I heard he was late for everything, from people that work for him. A couple of other things too. The issue of trust. One of the issues that I felt that I personally felt and I have asked everyone is whether the boomer generation and again, all boomers have a problem with trust because they saw so many leaders lie to them. Certainly you already told me some of the things that Nixon did to the Native American community, but obviously Watergate and Gulf of Tonkin, the Vietnam War. There is questions about what was going on Vietnam with even President Kennedy. If you were an observant Boomer, you knew even Eisenhower lied to you, the U2 incident and then you go on into Reagan with Iran Contra, so the boomers have throughout their lives have seen leaders who have disappointed them or lied to them. But secondly, people who major in political science know that when you have, when you do not trust your government that is healthy, because that shows that dissent is alive and well and supported. Your thoughts whether you feel the Native American boomers have a problem with trust. With Native Americans have not been able to trust too many people throughout their lives, have they? Because of lies taking away land and then as time passes, probably more than any other group along with African Americans, the lies have been outrageous. 60:13 PS: Well, then you have an overlay of dysfunctional tribal governments that are corrupt and inefficient and also liars, so, you know, it is, I do not know, the skepticism. It is, it is certainly deserved, but it is not, it does not just work on, like the US government, you know. Its again, a lot of very seemingly intractable issues that are very, very difficult. So, you know, it mostly means we are not thrilled with our tribal governments, you know so it is very difficult. 60:51 SM: What is the number one issue right now? And what are the biggest issues today facing Native Americans that still have to be resolved in your in your view? And certainly now that the World War II generation is passing on, and now boomers are getting into old age, we got Generation X'ers now who are in their forties. So we got, you know? What are the issues that Native Americans are still unhappy with or still have to be resolved? In your opinion. 61:27 PS: Well, we are still among the poorest people in the United States, so that is still true. There is this looming demographic change that is coming up, where, you know, when I was growing up being half Indian was sort of just been barely Indian. Now, you know, I mean, all these - 61:56 SM: It was the batteries, they were dead. These do not last long, I tell you. 62:01 PS: Well that is good to know - 62:03 SM: Well what happened here was one question I lost, but I do not know. 62:06 PS: Yeah, but you know, this idea of like quantitative percentages and all that that, you know, really only we talk about in this way, it is very bad. You know, that is changing a lot so, most if you go to any big Indian family reunion, you know, it looks like the United Nations, you know, it is people from all over the world often, you know. So that is a very different thing than the (19)50s or (19)60s where if you were a quarter Indian, you did not even really count in many ways. So, so that is something people are looking at now. Definitely change is coming. 62:49 SM: What is the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? 62:51 PS: I am not someone that was you know, I was affected by Vietnam at a distance, obviously, because I was not somebody who was immediately at risk. I guess I would say I think about it in terms of, you know, as a sort of a museum professional about seeing it as a very effective monument in Washington. Look closely at how it was created and that has nothing to do with the emotional impact a lot of people would have, I do not feel like it is something I, you know, would own or be a part of. But what I what I think about though, is that when Maya Lin was brilliant at though was understanding, you know, she understood what people wanted versus what they said they wanted. So, if you ask, this is what our museum does, is ask people to like, design the exhibits you know. So ask, most Vietnam veterans, gee here is our idea. It is a wall of granite with names on it. How do you how do you like that? Most of them would have said, it is probably a terrible idea, and there was a lot of hostility at it when it was released. And yet the emotional power of it, you know, was incredible and that showed that she had an insight into the human condition and the human heart, you know that triumphed versus what people wanted to see they wanted to see figurative displays. So that is how most people do not know how to think about monuments or art so I think it is an incredibly successful thing, but I am not ̶ I was not in Vietnam, I did not lose people in Vietnam. So I obviously 64:45 SM: Do you know many vets? Do you know the influence this had on many vets on Native American vets? 64:49 PS: Not really I mean, I knew vets that were either, who were part of AIM. No, it is not really something I know about or could speak about. 65:00 SM: I am just asking here now, just your immediate responses to some of the terms and people of the era and that is what the Vietnam Memorial is. And what does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? 65:10 PS: I remember when they happened. It was a big deal. I was in high school, I remember when it happened. 65:17 SM: What was your thoughts on it, when you heard that four college students are killed on a college campus and then two were killed a week and a half later? 65:27 PS: Yeah, I was, you know, I mean, I was living in Washington. So um, you know, it was, campuses, you know, in turmoil, and it was it was a very traumatic time. 65:42 SM: The fortieth anniversary is coming up this year, I cannot believe it. What is Watergate mean to you? 65:50 PS: Watergate was fun. It was interesting. It was like this long form novel of you know, a lot of things happening at a time. You know, very antiquated, right? Because you would have to, like, get the Washington Post each morning, you know. A very old fashioned kind of thing. It was great. 66:11 SM: And when I say this, not only you but whether you felt any of these had an effect on the Native American community too. Hippies and Yippies, what do you think of them? 66:22 PS: I have noticed that Indians have always been terrible at choosing allies. So early on, we decided hippies were good allies for us. And then we are stupid allies for us. You know, and we encouraged that a lot. So I do not know who I would have chosen instead. But I think you know, the idea to feel like there is this natural affinity was not helpful to our situation, in my opinion. 66:56 SM: How about the Black Panther Party? When I say this, I am talking about seven or eight different personalities here, Eldridge Cleaver, to Kathleen Cleaver to Bobby Seale and Huey Newton and Dave Hillier, Norene Brown, Stokely Carmichael. H. Rap Brown the entire gamut. What did you think of them? 67:21 PS: I was a SNCC guy. I liked SNCC. I did not like the Panthers that much. I especially did not like the California Panthers. But you know, you talking about somebody who at the time is fifteen years old, right? It is not like I was palling around with them. In one of my essays I wrote, I experienced the (19)60s, one of the best ways possible through television. Maybe the most authentic way possible. So you know, I am the kid who is reading books and making judgments, you know. 67:48 SM: What is your history lesson? What do you think they were good for, or bad or what? Overall? Because they challenge the civil rights movement, and they were they were the ones that challenged Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer and Roy Wilkins and said, you know, you guys are times past. This is Black Power now, it is not about non-violent protests. 67:50 PS: I did not think they were very bright. 68:20 SM: How about the students for democratic society too and that was another group that was the anti-war group that became the Weathermen. 68:28 PS: Yeah. You know, it is a group that always had a lot of cache. I cannot really remember. I guess I did meet people. And sort of there was sort of solidarity work done with Indians and I think I met some people who have been SDS but not like, you know, necessarily at Berkeley or anything. So you know, it was, it was a group that, you know, again, me is a pretentious teenage intellectual. So I am reading about SDS and we can learn about it and all that. But it felt pretty remote to my experiences. 69:11 SM: You mentioned TV, you learn through TV. You learned about a lot of these persons in black power through TV. What? What were the things that you saw on TV that influenced you? The media was very important. It was the first; TV brought the Vietnam War home to America. I mean, they saw it every night on the news. In the Native American community, obviously TV was very important, I am correct? Particularly if you live in like North Dakota or South Dakota or? 69:52 PS: I do not know, I did not live there. I lived in suburban Washington so I do not know what that experience was like. I mean, you know, I heard Stokely Carmichael speak at the University of Maryland. You know, I read the Washington Post, I mean, I got information from a lot of places. So I would never like, it was always filtered through certain skepticism about what was what was going on, about the Panthers or whatever. 70:22 SM: I was going to ̶ why do you think the Vietnam War ended? What do you think was the main reason when the combat that it did end? 70:34 PS: And that question saying the war ended when? 70:36 SM: The war in the 1975 but, the reason why it ended? 70:44 PS: Yeah, well, I guess like most people, I would say it would have ended sooner. That the last several years, we are really about saving things for the United States, which is you know, any realistic idea that the US could win that war. 71:10 SM: Even though you are fifteen and you saw it on TV, how important you think students are an ending that war? Because there were obviously Native American students at Berkeley and other schools that were protesting. 71:21 PS: Yeah, it changes everything when you have a draft, you know, it like, you know, it is completely different than what you are looking at now. 71:33 SM: One of the big issues within that time frame was that it was the draft. That was why the protests were happening and certainly a lot of African American, Latino American and Native Americans were not able to have the influence that good old white Americans had getting out of the war. 71:50 PS: Yeah. 71:50 SM: Through deferments, well going to college for one thing. You got out until you finished school and then they would go after you. 71:58 PS: Yeah. 71:58 SM: But they did not have access to that. 72:01 PS: Right. 72:02 SM: So that is another very, did you hear that talked about it all in the Native American community? That many were forced to go in the military? 72:15 PS: Only rhetorically, I mean, not, you know, not really beyond that. You know it is obviously true that people had more access, you know? 72:26 SM: Some went in too because they thought it was going to be a career. 72:29 PS: Yeah. 72:30 SM: It was a career direction that they were taking. 72:32 PS: Yeah. 72:33 SM: Now I have got a quote here, but I know that I had all these names, but you were fifteen so I am not sure if you want to respond to these names or not. But just quick, just quick thoughts on these people real fast. How are we doing time wise? 72:51 PS: Five more minutes. 72:51 SM: Five more minutes, okay. What did you think of Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden? 72:55 PS: I lived the Bay Area in the late (19)70s. So they were actually, let me see, I think Jane Fonda, I saw her speak once. Tom Hayden ran for the Senate that might have been (19)78 or something? I do not know. Hollywood celebrities sort of, I do not know, they were not. I mean, I never I never. From an activist point of view, you are trying to get them on your side. But it was never really clear to me what that did for us. So I do not know. 73:34 SM: When you look at the President's for the boomers, which goes from Truman to Eisenhower to Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II and now Obama, of all those presidents, I know you cannot speak for all Native Americans, but were any did any of them stand out as popular within the Native American community and why? 74:09 PS: It was surprising how many Indian people supported Obama. Because Indians in the US did not know Obama and he did not know Indians. And McCain had been on the senate Indian Affairs Committee for many, many years. But as it turned out, Indians overwhelmingly supported Barack Obama for President. So that was interesting. As I said earlier, from a policy perspective, most people would say, overwhelmingly, Nixon was the best president for Indians. So, yeah. 74:40 SM: Some of the other names I will not go through all these presidents but the leaders of the women's movement and certainly the politicians Eugene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy and Hubert Humphrey and Lyndon that whole ̶ (19)60s, politicians of the (19)60s, did Native Americans, like any of them? 75:06 PS: I think a lot of people liked Bobby Kennedy. Was what it seemed like. 75:14 SM: And of course, he was assassinated. Of course, Dr. King and Malcolm X were also very important, different styles, different ways, Muhammad Ali with the refusal to go in the draft. 75:27 PS: Yeah, yeah. 75:29 SM: Were there any heroes within the Native American community outside of the Native Americans? Who were not Native American? Did they have heroes? Do you have heroes? 75:43 PS: Joe Strummer, probably would be a hero. 75:45 SM: Who? 75:45 PS: Joe Strummer of the Clash. 75:49 SM: Okay. 75:49 PS: I am not a (19)60s guy. I do not know. I do not know. It is see, you know sort of as a cultural critic, you sort of are about tearing down heroes not building them up. So I do not know. I guess I do not have a lot of them. 76:15 SM: And notice that today's students, their heroes are their parents, or their uncle or their aunt, and you do not, see too many political figures, maybe some athletes. 76:24 PS: What is up with kids today with their best friends are their parents? I did not get that. It is what I keep reading about. 76:28 SM: That is the millennials what is amazing is 85 percent of the students today are from Generation X parents. Yeah. Fifteen are boomers. The boomers that have kids late. 76:39 PS: But how can your best friends be your parents? I do not get it. 76:39 SM: But what do you what do you think will be the lasting legacy of the boomer generation with that includes Native Americans, what do you think will be one of the best history books ever written? 76:54 PS: I think it is, uh, you know, people had an incredible ride, you know. An incredible moment in history to be able to have amazing educations of amazing economic situations. The last great generation of the American Century maybe? That stuff is never coming back; you know? I just think, very fortunate. Like my parents too, earlier generation, but you know, just people born in the Depression. If you worked hard, you could end up upper middle class that is what my parents did. They both were from modest families, you know my mom was a preacher's daughter and my dad was even poorer, even though he was white. And just by being smart and working hard, they ended up upper middle class, and I think that is a very different situation now. I mean, I respect that they work hard and everything but everything was there for them. You know, at that time, that kind of education, you could get the kind of jobs that were there, you know, the economy steadily, you know, becoming stronger. 78:11 SM: Overall. And since you are kind of a middle boomer, not an early boomer, are you pleased overall with the way boomers have lived their lives? Have they been a good influence on their kids and their grandkids? In terms of activism, fighting for justice. I know we cannot generalize here but the boomers, that you know, are they kind of living some of the ideals they had when they were young? Or did they cop out and go off and make a lot of money and raise kids and just simply say, well, I was young then and I had a lot of time. Your thoughts on boomers over time, from the time that when you were young, looking up to them and then now, forty, fifty years later. 79:03 PS: I used to know what to do with that question. [laughs] I do not know. I do not know. I do not know. 79:11 SM: You do not know whether you are happy or sad. 79:13 PS: I do not. I do not know how to conceptualize who these people are to be making judgments about. I do not know. I do not know. I mean, the term for me is always in quotes you know. So it is hard to - 79:25 SM: And we had to define as it is that 15 percent who were activists. 79:29 PS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 79:29 SM: Because I say the eighty-five that were not they were subconsciously effective too. 79:34 PS: Yeah, yeah. 79:35 SM: But we are still talking almost twenty million people here. 79:37 PS: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 79:39 SM: So you do not have any sense of whether they have they been able to share and pass this on to their kids? How about in the Native American community? Have they, they passed this on to their kids? What it was like in the (19)60s in the (19)50s, (19)60s, (19)70s and in the AIM movement? What have the AIM leaders done in terms of sharing? 80:03 PS: I think it is I do not think anybody has done very well. I think history is difficult. I think a lot of it is very complex and hard to synthesize and talk about. And I will say one thing though, I will say I gave a talk at California State University, Bakersfield last year. They had a lot of their class, had come to class, read my book of essays and the guy said he had read a whole bunch of books to get them mine because college freshmen are so hostile, are so hostile is the right word, are so uninterested in books that talk about diversity, or, you know, minority groups or you know, try to explain all this. That this is a group that is had Martin Luther King Day shoved down their throats every day since they are in kindergarten. And so I think now that you know, some form of, you know, diversity and multiculturalism, estate policy, especially, you know, nationally, especially in a place in California, kids hate it! Kids hate it! Because it is fake. Because it is a teacher telling you, you know, you ask kids about Martin Luther King is and they will say, he is a guy who died, you know. So it is like, finding a way, it is not just the intent. Of course the idea of Martin Luther King Day was a wonderful idea, I am not saying you should not have done it. But I am saying the distance between having intelligent dialogue about it or having people look at it closely, is very difficult to do. So, with the news the same thing we are trying to think about, you know, what was AIM in a sentence. I cannot explain that, you know. So, but I was interested in the fact that so many kids are basically out of there when you try to talk to them about, you know, Indian this or that or ̶ this or that nobody wants to hear about it because they have heard about it their whole life. I was in a position where you had to be oppositional to find out that stuff. It was not encouraged in school. So now we have a case where it is encouraged in schools. And I do not know if that is a good thing or not. 82:23 SM: Do you feel that? And again, I will often wonder what universities learned from the (19)60s and the (19)70s that they can apply today with young students and maybe start protesting against the Iraq and Afghanistan war, or other issues. Of course, there is no draft but as a guy who has been in higher ed(ucation) for thirty years, I do not think they have learned anything. 82:46 PS: Yeah. 82:46 SM: And, and, and I would like your observation, I only have the next last question. Your observation, our universities today and I mean, every university whether it be Ivy League, State University or community college, technical school I do not care what it is. Are they afraid of activist students? Are they afraid of the term activism knowing that today's generation of students are so into volunteerism that on any given campus between 90 percent and 95 percent of the students may be involved in volunteer work, which is great. But that is a certain number of times I am talking about a mentality of twenty-four to seven mentality about how one lives one's life, caring about the causes. Justice everywhere. So a poor family in Washington, DC we got to care about them! A person hungry in Afghanistan, and dying because we got to care about them! Just your thoughts on that. 83:44 PS: I do not know much about what universities are thinking these days. I really do not know if they are concerned about that or not. 83:50 SM: You go speak on college campuses? 83:52 PS: I do and it seems like there is a lot of activist minded people and their groups. You know, it seems like there is always kids out there looking for stuff, yeah. 84:03 SM: The last question I will not ask about these names here, but I want to repeat this because I think I lost that important segment where you were talking about how did you become who you are. If you could just repeat that for me because I think that is what I lost here on the tape that is very important how PS, how you became who you are. And certainly, the pride you have in your, your background. 84:31 PS: Oh, I think I am somebody who has a talent for writing and who is bad at everything else. So I have been fortunate enough to, you know, sort of through activism and, and then later through writing about things that interested me, you know, I am able to write successfully and find people that are interested in similar things. So, but it is mostly about being bad at everything else I think. 85:03 SM: Who? Who was? Did your parents inspire you to be a writer? Did your father, who was a professor. Did he say Paul jeez, looks like you got talent here. Did you have a teacher that says you got a talent here? How did you know that you were a good writer? 85:22 PS: I guess there was a teacher or two. Not so much my parents in terms of writing, I sort of became a writer kind of late. So it is hard to point to anything specific. So it was, I do not know, partly writing to figure out what I think I guess. 85:44 SM: And then to repeat that other thing, too, about, you know, your father, your mother, one's Native American and one is white, will you repeat that again, about your background, because that was what I think was hurt there. Where you came from and - 86:01 PS: Yeah, me and my two sisters report in West Texas. My mom Comanche my dad, a white guy from a farming family both from Oklahoma. And we lived in Ithaca, New York briefly and then - 86:19 SM: You know that is where I am from do not you? 86:20 PS: Ithaca. Right. Yeah. And then living mostly in Maryland, suburban Washington with a lot of connection to Oklahoma. 86:33 SM: Is there any last question? Last question: is there any questions I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? 86:45 PS: Seemed like a very comprehensive set of questions. 86:47 SM: I am worried that I botched that one. I think the Alcatraz one, you, I think we got enough here. Yeah, but let us hope this is okay. Okay. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Chaat Smith Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, Paul Chaat ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Comanche Indians; Authors; Essayists; Museum curators; Smith, Paul Chaat--Interviews Description An account of the resource Paul Chaat Smith is a Comanche author, essayist, and curator. He wrote the books <em>Like a Hurricane: The Indian Movement from Alcatraz to Wounded Knee</em> and <em>Everything You Know about Indians Is Wrong</em>. Smith has also lectured at the National Gallery of Art, Center for the Arts in San Francisco, and the Getty Center for the History of Art and the Humanities in Los Angeles. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.208a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.208b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 87:01 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f651d4d971963c86e198be7ae7eb02ec.jpg 4a7db8257f23d3dbb2f40a0c4eaaf7f3 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/acc3be9cff4e426d027b9e5db043c174.mp3 8ac5f2d5736c05ce424258d9dd5053b0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Steven M. Silver Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Steven M. Silver is a psychologist, author and combat veteran of the Vietnam War. He is currently the Director of the inpatient Posttraumatic Stress Disorder Program of the VA Medical Center in Coatesville, P.A.. Dr. Silver has been working with trauma survivors since 1972. He received his Bachelor's degree in History and Government, a Master's degree in Counseling form Miami University in Ohio, and he has a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Temple University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":6915,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,3618091],"15":"Arial"}">Dr. Steven M. Silver is a psychologist, author and combat veteran of the Vietnam War. He is the former Director of the inpatient Posttraumatic Stress Disorder Program of the VA Medical Center in Coatesville, P.A. Dr. Silver has been working with trauma survivors since 1972. He received his Bachelor's degree in History and Government, a Master's degree in Counseling from Miami University in Ohio, and he has a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Temple University.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Anti-war protests; Vietnam War; Civil Rights Movement; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Jane Fonda & Tom Hayden; Nineteen seventies music; Rock and roll."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Anti-war protests; Vietnam War; Civil Rights Movement; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Jane Fonda & Tom Hayden; Nineteen seventies music; Rock and roll.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 124:11 Subject LCSH Psychologists; Authors, American; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Silver, Steven M.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Steven Silver Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Silver, Steven M. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Psychologists; Authors, American; Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Post-traumatic stress disorder; Silver, Steven M.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Steven M. Silver is a psychologist, author and combat veteran of the Vietnam War. He is currently the Director of the inpatient Posttraumatic Stress Disorder Program of the VA Medical Center in Coatesville, P.A. Dr. Silver has been working with trauma survivors since 1972. He received his Bachelor's degree in History and Government, a Master's degree in Counseling from Miami University in Ohio, and he has a Ph.D. in Counseling Psychology from Temple University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.207a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.207b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 124:11 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/24a5eb43622c1e0395ef5b94a0274609.jpg d1ec8b16e7af6cc9f36f4e9e253fb935 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/785040015d959e656dd2cb4265cb0b0b.mp3 2384887ef3a5c573cbfacfd9c4fae785 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 3/10/11 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Sidel, Ruth Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Ruth Sidel is a scholar, author and educator. Dr. Sidel received her Bachelor's degree from Wellesley College, and both her Master's degree of Social Work and Ph.D. from Boston University. She is a professor at Hunter College and has also published several books. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13309,"3":{"1":1},"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Ruth Sidel (1933-2016) was a scholar, author, and educator. Dr. Sidel received her Bachelor's degree from Wellesley College, and both her Master's degree in Social Work the Boston University and Ph.D. from Union Graduate School. She was a professor at Hunter College and has also published several books.<br /><br /><br /></span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Civil Rights Movement; China; Women's Rights Movement; Political corectness; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Black Power groups; Baby boom generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":769,"3":{"1":0},"11":4,"12":0}">Civil Rights Movement; China; Women's Rights Movement; Political correctness; Civil Rights Movement; Anti-war Movement; Black Power groups; Baby boom generation.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:31:33 Subject LCSH Scholars; Authors, American; College teachers; Hunter College; Sidel, Ruth--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Ruth Sidel Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sidel, Ruth ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Scholars; Authors, American; College teachers; Hunter College; Sidel, Ruth--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Ruth Sidel is a scholar, author, and educator. Dr. Sidel received her Bachelor's degree from Wellesley College, and both her Master's degree in Social Work and Ph.D. from Boston University. She is a professor at Hunter College and has also published several books. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.206 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 91:33