38 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/daa8c68bbdc1c681f15b3b32f9525e65.jpg c668073a72532bf0096fba82a4108371 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bc46c808f4d4ae88c8742d71f455ce00.mp3 20ef242e57f66c37cbb20321c698c11c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-01-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David R. Hawk Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 3 microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"David Hawk is a former Executive Director of Amnesty International, USA, UN human rights official in charge of the Cambodia Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, and author. Hawk has been a visiting scholar at the Columbia University Institute for the Study of Human Rights, and taught at Hunter College, CUNY. Currently he teaches in the International Relations Department at the University of South Florida (Tampa). Hawk is a graduate of Cornell University and Union Theological Seminary, and he also did postgraduate work in International Affairs and Strategic Studies at Magdalen College, Oxford."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15107,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,3355443],"15":"Arial","16":10}">David Hawk is a former Executive Director of Amnesty International, USA, UN human rights official in charge of the Cambodia Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, and author. Hawk has been a visiting scholar at the Columbia University Institute for the Study of Human Rights and taught at Hunter College, CUNY. Currently, he teaches in the International Relations Department at the University of South Florida (Tampa). Hawk is a graduate of Cornell University and Union Theological Seminary, and he also did postgraduate work in International Affairs and Strategic Studies at Magdalen College, Oxford.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"The nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Vietnam War; music styles; Bob Dylan; Civil Rights Movement; yippies; Woodstock; Counterculture; James Farmer; Vietnam War; Women's Liberation Movement."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">The nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Vietnam War; music styles; Bob Dylan; Civil Rights Movement; yippies; Woodstock; Counterculture; James Farmer; Vietnam War; Women's Liberation Movement.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 164:52 Subject LCSH Amnesty International; Authors, American--20th century; College teachers; Hawk, David R.--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: David Hawk Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 14 January 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:02): Testing, one, two, testing. Testing, one, two. DH (00:00:10): That is one of those digitalized? SM (00:00:12): Yes. DH (00:00:12): Or is that a digitalized? SM (00:00:15): Oh, no. DH (00:00:15): Oh, no-no. It is got a little micro. SM (00:00:17): Yeah, but I have a digitalized one, but I am trying to figure it out. Maybe the closer I get there. DH (00:00:21): Okay. SM (00:00:22): First question I want to ask is, when you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? And please speak loud because it is catching. I have to check on this every so often too if it is working. DH (00:00:37): Yeah, the good old days. SM (00:00:40): Fine with the good old days? DH (00:00:46): The (19)60s and early (19)70s, well, I was in college and graduate school, and that was great fun, both. And that is the time when I met the young woman who is still my wife. And that was a time of successful political activism, the name of the civil rights movement, which worked. And the occasion of the... I dropped out of graduate school in (19)67. Took five years off to try to stop the war in Vietnam, which we did not succeed in doing. But I probably had more political influence during those years than any time since. So, even though we did not succeed to stop the war, we did at various points have a big impact on the course of events. SM (00:02:29): What was it about your background before you even went to Cornell University? Because I know you went to Cornell and I am from the [inaudible] area, so it is a small world. I went to Binghamton and grew up in there. I have quite a few relatives who went to Cornell. What was it in your upbringing, even before you got to Cornell University, that made you somewhat who you are? Were you an activist prior to going to college in your high school years? Were there issues that really upset you when you were younger? Things in the late (19)50s, early (19)60s? DH (00:03:02): Yeah. I was seized at, must have been junior high school by the... When I became aware of racial segregation and discrimination, that was offensive, which probably had most to do with my religious upbringing as a low church evangelical. And the fact that the civil rights movement in those years was led by ministers and the grievances articulated in the terms of the Old and New Testament. And we believe that segregation and discrimination were social evils that should be eliminated. SM (00:04:21): In the school you went to, the high school, were you the only one that felt that way? Did you feel alone, or were there other students that were thinking that as well? Seeing what was happening? Probably on black and white television. DH (00:04:34): Yeah. The years of Little Rock. SM (00:04:38): Right. DH (00:04:42): Of the attempts to integrate schools. Well, if you come from places like Allentown, Pennsylvania, or Lancaster or York, you go into the town squares, the monuments are, to the Civil War, dead. I mean, and they were [inaudible] Republicans. And it was not just preserving the union, part of that legacy you grew up with was ending slavery. No, so there were not many African Americans in my junior high or high school, but there were some, and the idea that they could not go to school with everybody else was offensive. But there was not much to... Where were we? Oh. Oh, right, so I remember the first occasion was... Well, so I followed that. I was interested in that. In those, I would have been a Eisenhower, Nixon-type Republican. That is what my folks were. Although the New Frontier Kennedy's administration caught the enthusiasm of a lot of young people. The idea of younger generation getting the country moving again, seeing the that as opposed to Eisenhower and the Dulleses. So I followed developments in the civil rights movement. Martin Luther King was already the nationally known figure. And then, I remember the freedom rights and the sit-ins. And sit-ins was sort of outrageous that African Americans could not eat at those lunch counter in their local Woolworths. Every town had a Woolworths. And when I used to go to the YMCA in Allentown, it was right around the corner from the Woolworths in downtown. I would have lunch at Woolworths, go back to the Y. When I was, it must have been a sophomore year, I guess. Yeah, well, maybe. Yeah, I guess. Yes, sure it would have been sophomore year at Cornell when there was a nationwide picketing of Woolworth in support of the students in the South who were sitting in at the lunch counters. And I participated in that picket of Woolworth in downtown Wichita. SM (00:08:31): Wow, very good. DH (00:08:33): That was my... SM (00:08:35): I know Wichita. Where was that? Was that still there? Who is there now? DH (00:08:38): Oh, I have no idea. It would have been on that main street. SM (00:08:41): Yeah. DH (00:08:42): Or whatever, that State Street or what? SM (00:08:43): Yeah. DH (00:08:44): Whatever it is called. But anyway, so I remember that. SM (00:08:55): Your years at Cornell, what were the years that you were at Cornell? DH (00:09:00): It would have been (19)60 or (19)61 to (19)65. SM (00:09:08): Obviously, the Vietnam War was not even really picking up until about after (19)65. Was there any kind of small protests against the war? DH (00:09:15): Yeah. SM (00:09:16): I know that Phil Caputo's book talks about in The Rumor of War, that is when the first large numbers of troops were going over, around that (19)65 period. DH (00:09:25): Well, sure. I then worked in the summer of my junior year. I participated in Mississippi Freedom Summer, so I was in Hattiesburg, Mississippi in August of (19)64 when the Gulf of Tonkin happened. And we were afraid that if the US got into a war, Johnson would be distracted and he would not implement the civil rights measures that were in the process of... The Voting Rights Act was (19)65, but the Mississippi's Freedom Summer was building up to that. We were afraid that if there was a war, it would distract attention from civil rights and anti-poverty efforts. Does that mean that World War II replaced the new deal? The Korean War overtook Truman's fair deal? I was at Cornell. I was studying industrial labor relations, so I was studying economics and history and sociology, so I was studying this stuff. SM (00:11:07): Did you have any fear when you went South? Did you go by yourself and met a group down there? Did you go with a group of other students and did you have a fear that something could happen to you... DH (00:11:21): Yeah. SM (00:11:21): ...when you went down there? What was that feeling like? And then, the experience itself and how it can change you somewhat? DH (00:11:27): Well, sure. I was in... I mean, this was part of the Student Non-violent Coordinating Committee Freedom Summer. And there was an orientation program. People went down in two waves. I was in the second wave, but they just assigned me to that. They just told me to go. The orientation program was maybe at Oberland or some college in Ohio or something, I recall vaguely. And it was the people who were in the first orientation included Schwerner and Goodman, and they were killed along with Chaney while we were at the orientation program they had. They had gone down a week, maybe two weeks before. So, security was a big concern. Although, my parents worried about it more than I did. Yeah, the 20-year-old, what did we... But it was clear that the organization was going to have a lot of security concerns. You did not go out at night. You went out and you never went out alone. So, there were whole sets of security regulations. SM (00:13:10): Was Scott Lynn one of the instructors? DH (00:13:12): Oh, sure. SM (00:13:13): Yeah. [Inaudible] person. DH (00:13:16): Oh, yeah. I have not seen him in decades. Decades. SM (00:13:22): Well, he was up there. DH (00:13:24): Yeah, he was up there. He was a generation, he was 20 years older than we were. You were very careful. We went to the Black churches on Sunday morning, but we were not allowed to go to the African American bars and nightclubs on Saturday night. And we did not integrate. We were doing voter registration. That was the goal. We would canvas Black neighborhoods and try to talk to people about registering. And then, there was the Mississippi Freedom Democratic [inaudible] Challenge. SM (00:14:25): Danny [inaudible]? DH (00:14:26): Mm-hmm. SM (00:14:27): Yes. DH (00:14:28): So, that was the project. And we did not try to desegregate things. We did not pair up with Blacks and try to go to white only places because of the security issues, and because the aim was voter registration. It was aimed at demonstrating. The aim was to demonstrate that these people were not being allowed to vote in order to get the Voting Rights Act, which followed the next year, so that is what we stuck to. I was there during the Gulf of Tonkin, and that is when I first heard of or paid any attention to Vietnam. And then, it was in my senior year. Then you had the escalation started right after it was on [inaudible]. And you had the first round of the teachings were actually in the spring of (19)65, my senior year. And so, there were two professors at Cornell, John Lewis and... He was a China scholar. Oh, the Indonesia scholar. SM (00:16:10): McCann? DH (00:16:10): George McCann. They published one of the first major history of the Vietnam War called the US in Vietnam. The teaching was supposed to be a debate between Hans Morgenthau and McGeorge Bundy. And it was going to be televised, or not televised, broadcast in some way in a dozen campuses. But LBJ forbade Bundy from debating Morgenthau, which would have been a fabulous debate. So then, a dozen, two dozen, however many universities, particularly ones that had strong Southeast Asian departments. So you would have Berkeley, University of Michigan, Yale, Cornell. Anyway, so there were two professors who gave the teaching. Lasted all night long, and these guys alternated it. And I was just astonished at how anyone knew so much about Vietnam. What they were doing was reading the chapters of the book that they were currently writing. SM (00:17:54): Oh, they were looking down and up. DH (00:17:57): They took turns. But it was like a six-hour lecture... SM (00:18:03): My God. DH (00:18:04): ...where these two professors alternated back and forth on how the US was setting off entirely the wrong course, that it was not going to work. If it was not halted and reversed, it was going to be a disaster. Anyway, that then became the serious scholarly book on the Vietnam War for the next several years. SM (00:18:39): What year that book come out? I have a big collection [inaudible], (19)64 or (19)65. DH (00:18:46): Probably came out in (19)66. It would have been in the spring of... I cannot remember. Was it... Yeah, yeah, it was (19)65. SM (00:18:58): Sure. DH (00:19:02): Spring of (19)65. SM (00:19:03): Do you remember the cover? DH (00:19:05): It was green and white. SM (00:19:07): Yeah. DH (00:19:08): Paperback. SM (00:19:09): Oh, it was a paperback. I know there was a green book with a yellow Vietnam on it. It was [inaudible] kind of stuff. Way back. DH (00:19:16): [Inaudible], I do not know. But if you look, if you check it out, McKahin and Lewis, the US in Vietnam. And then, 10 years later, 20 years later, McKahin did a second edition of it. John Lewis left Cornell, went to Stanford and he was... I am still in touch with him. SM (00:19:46): Good. DH (00:19:46): Because he has done a lot of work on China and on North... Well, he is the China scholar, on North Korea. But he is retired from Stanford now. But in any event... SM (00:19:58): That is become a pretty conservative institution there with the Hoover Institution. DH (00:20:01): Well, it is separate. The undergraduate parts, there are parts of it that are liberal. SM (00:20:19): When you look at the boomer generation, now, again, people have responded differently to the question. Some people do not even like this concept of generations. Todd [inaudible] said, "Quit talking about it." People that were young during the era. But he said, for example, that when you look at the Boomers between (19)46 and (19)64, which are the years that are defined as boomers, experiences that the people in the front wave of the boomers are totally different than the last 10 years. And so, those people formed the group, say (19)46 and (19)54-(19)56, they really experienced the protests on college campuses. You cannot really say that some of the students did not that were in the latter group. So, he kept saying that, and I would be interviewing him. He was saying, "Oh, correct me again, just do not say boomer generation." But I have had a couple people that have been very sensitive to this, but I am just saying what other people have defined the group as. They define the World War II generation the silent generation, and what they call the cuspers, which is the second group compared to the first group. I have just learned that in my studies. Cuspers are those born between the (19)56 and (19)64. And then, you have got, of course, the Generation Xers, and then you got the millennials that are in college right now. But the basic question I am really asking, when you look at that generation of 70 to 78 million, and the numbers differ, what are the characteristics that you admired about that group and those that you least admired? DH (00:22:01): I never thought about it. I do not object to the categories, but I am actually a little older. I was born in (19)43. SM (00:22:14): Well, a lot of the people, though, that ran were the leaders of the movement... DH (00:22:20): Yeah, we were. SM (00:22:21): ...in that... DH (00:22:22): Yes. SM (00:22:22): That is why it was really ridiculous. DH (00:22:24): We were in graduate school. SM (00:22:26): Yeah. DH (00:22:26): I mean, I do not much like that question. I would not think about it in that way. I think about the times. And obviously, the music, it was fabulous. SM (00:22:49): Talk about the music because that is a question later on, but how important was the music in the anti-war movement and all the movements? DH (00:22:56): Oh, enormously important. SM (00:22:58): [Inaudible]. DH (00:23:04): The freedom songs, I mean, during the civil rights movement were driven by... Again, because that movement is before the lawyers took over, it was still led by ministers and organized out of churches. And you sang all the hymns. And I came from a low church evangelical Protestant background. They were the same hymns that we sung. The Black churches sang with a little more fervor and better harmony, but same songs. We Shall Overcome, Amazing Grace, then that was when the folk music. SM (00:23:54): Oh, yeah. DH (00:23:57): So, you had folk music, which is what you listen to on the campuses, you had the gospel music, the church hymns that fed directly into is what you sang at the civil rights struggle. But you also had the first fabulous wave of rock and roll. Well, the first wave, I suppose would have been in the mid-(19)50s. But rhythm and blues and rock and roll either came out of Mississippi or came out of Tennessee. Or it was either Memphis or Alabama was. Pardon? SM (00:24:54): [Inaudible]. DH (00:24:58): But he was covering stuff he picked up from the rhythm and blue singers, so that, you know, you had the oldies but goodies rock and roll, and the beginning of soul music, where sort of rhythm and blues went mainstream. The music was fabulous. And you had folk music. And then, Dylan merged folk music. But you had Peter, Paul and Mary, Joan Baez, Bob Dylan. And they were the songsters, the musicians of the civil rights movement. And then, at (19)65... Whoa, was it (19)65? Dylan put folk music to rock and roll, Newport. That must have been Newport (19)65, I guess, or (19)64. But it was Highway 61 Revisited, whenever that was. So, the music was just fabulous. And then, you went (19)66, it was like the... That (19)66-(19)67 was not only the height of Motown, but also stacks and holes. SM (00:26:46): Oh, yeah. DH (00:26:47): The heavier rhythm and blue stuff, Otis Redding, Sam and Dave, the more Southern stuff. So, you have the just fabulous music. And then, it went psychedelic. SM (00:27:07): Saturday Night Fever. DH (00:27:09): No, that was later. That was disco. SM (00:27:11): We were talking about... DH (00:27:13): The Stones and the Beatles and Jimi Hendrix. So, I mean, that was the music of the anti-war group. SM (00:27:23): Yeah. DH (00:27:24): The Jefferson Airplane, all that stuff. And the civil rights movement merged into the hippies. In New York, in California, there was a heavy Stanford contingent in Mississippi, so it was a heavy Yale and Cornell contingent. But you had... What was his name? One of the Yippies. SM (00:28:05): Abbie Hoffman? DH (00:28:06): Abbie Hoffman. SM (00:28:06): And Jerry Rubin. DH (00:28:08): Abbie Hoffman was in Mississippi with Snick. And he left Snick when the Black Power movement sort of thing. And he set up shop in the East Village, but others went out to San Francisco. So you had the East Village. SM (00:28:39): [Inaudible] Berkeley there. DH (00:28:42): Yeah, so that fed into the counterculture. SM (00:28:51): Do you remember your years, the concerts that you went to, the ones at Cornell? The speakers? In that year when you were at Cornell, who were the most important speakers that came to your college at that time to talk about issues? And secondly, who were the musicians? Because when I went to Binghamton, I was there from... The last four years when I graduated [inaudible] and I still remember all the [inaudible] and how important they were. What were the concerts and speakers that you saw when you were a student? DH (00:29:28): Peter, Paul and Mary my freshman year. Peter, he was a Cornell graduate. They came through there. Who was the great? Bo Diddley. SM (00:29:43): Oh, wow. DH (00:29:49): And the Isley Brothers. SM (00:29:57): Oh, [inaudible]. DH (00:29:57): They were hardcore rock and rollers. And for a while, Jimi Hendrix was their guitar man. But they would come every year. Speakers, though, there were a lot of them. Hans Morgenthau did come through, Paul Tillich gave a lecture series there. I am not sure I understood what was saying, but sounded existentialist theology. It sounded very interesting. SM (00:30:41): Did you ever meet Daniel Barica? Because he was the Catholic priest there. DH (00:30:44): Oh, he actually came after I graduated. SM (00:30:49): Okay. DH (00:30:49): I was very active in the... Well, the Cornell United Religious Works, the CURW, was sort of the head and the various chaplains of which Barica became a Catholic chaplain there. But that was probably as close to the headquarters for the civil rights activities and anti-war activities as there was on campus. Certainly more than the economics department. I do not know what else you would say was, but that is where a lot of student... That is where you did a lot of that kind of activity. SM (00:31:42): But later on in Cornell when the Americans took over the union with the Black Power period, that was (19)61, a lot of history there. DH (00:31:53): Yeah. I do not think Cornell ever recovered. SM (00:32:00): The guy who was one of the leaders of that ended up becoming a very big CEO and actually is on a board of trustees now. Some big thing. One of the questions I have asked everybody is back in (19)94 when New Gingrich came to power, a period that the Republicans came in. I have read a couple of his speeches, he made a lot of comments about the (19)60s and (19)70s about we went backward during that era. And he really criticized the generation, the young people from that era. And then, George Will has also done the same thing. A lot of his writings, whenever he gets a chance to take a shot at the [inaudible], at the (19)60s and (19)70s, the activists. And basically what they are saying is that all the problems we have in American society today, and certainly not the terrorism thing, that has come about since. But all the problems we have in our society today, that you can go right back to that era. The lack of respect for authority, the sexual revolution. DH (00:32:59): Yeah, well... SM (00:32:59): The breakdown of divorce rate. SM (00:33:02): ...the breakdown of the divorce rate. All the people combating the victimization, everybody is a victim. So your thoughts on those kinds of comments, it is not just them, but there are others who really say that America really went backwards instead of forwards. DH (00:33:20): Well, I mean, that is the culture war. They were only partially... They could not be against the civil rights that they granted. The Gingrichs and the Wills granted that we were right about that. I do not recall what Will would have said about the war in Vietnam, but that was a Democrat's war, so I do not know, I do not recall what he was saying. But what they were mostly railing against was the counterculture. It was the hippies. That was what offended the Newt Gingrichs, and particularly the George Wills. It was the long hair, pot smoking, cultural aspect of the (19)60s and early (19)70s that they were attributing all matters of evil things to. SM (00:34:48): I know that Barney Frank wrote a book many years ago called Speaking Frankly, and in that book, he said around, he would not talk about those two guys, but as a Democrat, he was even making comments about the fact that the Democratic Party better get their act together because they fell apart in (19)72 when McGovern was running for president because it was the anti-war group. It was the anti-war group. And the Democratic Party became identified as that anti-war group. And that is when Nixon came into power and, of course, Board filed, of course, another history there, but then Reagan. So there was a lot of backlash that party had to get away from the anti-war people, those kind of things. And he wrote about that in a book. He actually agrees, not that he agrees with it, but he says another thing there about the burden. Everything seemed to change around that time and the recommendations that we need to change our course, the Democratic Party. DH (00:35:50): Yeah. Well, he was and remained a liberal Democrat. He was always, he was strongly against the war in Vietnam and strongly against interventional strong policy. But sure, in large part over race, but also, over the counterculture. The Democratic Party lost the Catholic vote, the working class, the Italian and Irish Catholic stalwart voting blocks for the New Deal. Sometimes they went with Wallace or they went with Nixon and Agnew over his attacks against the student elitists and the liberal media run by the Ivy League graduates. And there was apart from the solid South, that is when you had the party realignment. I mean, the liberal Republicans became Democrats, and the conservative Democrats became Republican as the South, which Johnson said was going to happen, is that he signed the Civil Rights Act. He said that, "South is going to be Republican, and I am the one who made it sell." But he did. But you had the loss of the Irish and Italian Catholics in the cities and the suburbs went with Nixon-Agnew, and then they certainly went for Reagan. SM (00:38:11): In your viewpoint, when did the (19)60s begin and when did it end? DH (00:38:40): I do not know. I do not know when it started in, I would have to think about that one. For me, it started in 1960. That is when I went off to college. I would say it ended in (19)72 with Nixon's reelection. So I think that is sort of when it ended. SM (00:39:16): Right. DH (00:39:16): That is when I would end it. SM (00:39:22): Do you think the Beats from... They were a small group, but they were also pretty influential, the Ginsbergs, the Kerouacs, and all that group, Waldman. They were kind of rebels in the (19)50s, I think. Of course, Ginsberg goes through, though, everything, Ferlinghetti and all of that group. They had influence on all on the (19)60s generation, the Vietnam generation. DH (00:39:50): Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah, sure. They fed directly into the counterculture. Well, they were all closeted homosexuals basically. Somewhere along the line, they came out of the closet, but they were involved in the civil rights and anti-war movements, and certainly, in the counterculture. Oh, okay. Let us see... Started with maybe the free speech movement in Berkeley. SM (00:40:32): And that was (19)64, (19)65. DH (00:40:34): Oh, was that that late? SM (00:40:35): Yeah, that was (19)64- DH (00:40:37): Then it started before that. No, really? SM (00:40:41): Yeah, that was (19)64, (19)65. And then Ginsberg wrote Howell. Of course, that was a very big thing in the (19)50s was freedom of speech and [inaudible]. DH (00:40:51): Yeah, that is why I thought the free speech movement was earlier. SM (00:40:56): Yeah, that was (19)64, (19)65. DH (00:40:57): Really? SM (00:40:57): At Berkeley. DH (00:41:01): Oh, okay. SM (00:41:03): Port Huron Statement was earlier. That was- DH (00:41:06): Yeah, that was good. When was that? SM (00:41:07): That was around (19)63ish when Tom wrote that. DH (00:41:07): Okay. SM (00:41:16): And I thought, what is interesting, I always make a comment, and this is not about me, but personally, in what I have written as far as the book is that 1973 to me was the end of the (19)60s. And that is because people were streaking at college campuses. And I knew something, that the seriousness of a lot of the things back then because I am working at Ohio University and my very first job in student affairs, and my buddy's from Ohio State, he called me up, said, "You got to get back here on the weekend." I said, "Why?" "They are going to be streaking all over the place. You love beautiful women." And I said, "Well, let us go." So I drove back from OU, and lo and behold, behind the law library that the women were coming out and doing the Rockettes, and the guys would then come out. It was unbelievable. I said, "What the hell's going on here?" The protests are over [inaudible]. DH (00:42:06): Oh, okay. Yeah. SM (00:42:12): Well, that is just an experience. One of the things I want to ask you, too, the boomers oftentimes, and again, I know you did not like the category, but the students that were in college in those times, in the (19)60s to maybe mid (19)70s, felt they were the most unique generation of American history. [inaudible] uniqueness. And there was a feeling that we are going solve all the problems in the world, racism, sexism, homophobia, bring peace in the world, a utopian kind of a mentality. Your thoughts on that kind of attitude that many of them had? Because I know I saw students talk about it, and a lot of them that are now in their early (19)60s, some of them still feel that. They have not lost that feeling, even though a lot of them really had gone out and made a lot of money and did not really get involved in causes. Just your thoughts on that. DH (00:43:13): On exactly what? SM (00:43:19): Oh, well, there was a uniqueness that they were the most unique. DH (00:43:28): Well, that is really, put that boldly is a little, off-puttingly arrogant. But you had different ways of it. You had the New Frontier getting the country moving again, and the idealism that was rekindled in various ways by the Kennedys, and the Peace Corps, that you did have that sort of optimism about getting the country moving again. And you also, you had the attitude so well expressed in Blowing in the Wind and some of the Dylan songs, get out of the way if you cannot make it. What was that song? SM (00:44:35): Blowing in the Wind or... DH (00:44:43): No, The Times They Are A-Changing. That is the one, The Times They Are A-Changing. You certainly had in the civil rights movement the sense that we were going to knock down the walls, and we did, but there was a consciousness that we were going to storm the citadels of segregation and knocked them down. I do not think you had quite that sense in Vietnam, because we had one short-lasting triumph. Well, we had two short-lasting triumphs. First triumph was the success of the Dump Johnson movement in the McCarthy campaign, both of which I was involved with. That is where I met Nixon and Sam Brown. But yeah, so we had such a good showing in New Hampshire that Bob Kennedy joined and LBJ dropped out. And then that soured real quickly and we ended up getting Richard Nixon. And four years later, I worked in the McGovern campaign. We succeeded [inaudible]. We succeeded in taking over the Democratic Party and then proceeded to lose every state except Massachusetts, I think, so that was short. And we were not succeeding. I mean, we were having big protests, and a lot of doors were open to us in Washington during the moratorium, but we were not... And we succeeded, it was actually Nixon. It was Nixon and Kissinger's plan to do what they finally did in the Christmas Bombing of (19)71, I guess. Was the Christmas Bombing (19)71 or (19)72? Must have been (19)71. SM (00:47:38): I know, in (19)70, is when they went in to Cambodia, though. DH (00:47:42): Yeah. Oh, no, maybe it was even later. Maybe it was his sec... Oh, it is all a little fuzzy now. But the massive bombing of Hanoi, it was later to force them to sign the... They were going to do that. They were going to do what became the Christmas Bombing. There is a name for it as a military operation, the Christmas Bombing is what we call it. It was not Operation Rolling Thunder. That was over Cambodia. SM (00:48:22): Yeah, that was early. That was earlier, yeah. DH (00:48:24): Whatever the name of it was, they were planning to do it in the winter of (19)69-(19)70. There was so much of an outpouring of peace sentiment that basically we organized in October and November of 1969 that they could not do it. They were afraid they would have the outcry that occurred in the spring at Kent State following the Cambodian invasion. So we forced them to postpone the carpet bombing of Hanoi for a couple of years. But you never had the sense that you were going to storm the citadels in the way we were storming them successfully in the civil rights movement. But in the civil rights movement, you had within SNCC a utopian faction called the... Well, sometimes they are called the crazy people faction and the better term was the beloved community. These were the interracial brotherhood of man folks, some of which peeled off into the hippies and yippies, but very pacifist, vegetarian, utopian. There were people involved in that who thought that they were creating the beloved community. SM (00:50:25): Is that Bob Moses? Was he in that? DH (00:50:26): Yeah, he was. Yes. SM (00:50:27): And John Lewis? DH (00:50:29): No, Lewis would have been in the realpolitik. Black Power really was sort of Black nationalist, the Stokely Carmichaels and Rap Brown. SM (00:50:50): Right, Eldridge Cleaver- DH (00:50:52): But you had Bayard Rustin from protest to politics. These people were going from protest to revolution or protest to Cultural Revolution and identity politics. But you had another stream represented by John Lewis and Julian Bond who said, "Hey, we got to vote. Let us run people from mayors and police chiefs, and I am going to run for Congress." So that was the protest to politics faction after the famous essay from Bayard Rustin. He said, "Oh, you got the vote. It is not utopia, but you will have Black policemen. You want Black sheriffs, Black policemen, Black city councilmen, you have the votes, go to it." SM (00:52:07): Yeah. When you think of some of the two most very important experiences, you already talked about Bayard Rustin, because he is from West Chester. DH (00:52:16): Yes. SM (00:52:18): And we did a national tribute on him during my time there. One of the great memories of that was the picture of him on stage with Malcolm X, because they debated each other. Actually, you can get that date, you can go right on the computer and get that and you can listen to it. So you got the debate between Malcolm and [inaudible 00:52:38] Malcolm says, "Your time has passed." And then there is that historic picture that I had not heard the transcript except to hear Stokely speak by himself. But those that witnessed that scene where Dr. King, his arms are folded as he is speaking to him, he was telling him, "Your time has passed." And so what you are talking, what you are seeing is you are seeing two men in their late 30s being told by people in their early 20s or middle 20s that their time was passed. Could you comment? Because you have already made reference to the fact that when SNCC went off into Black Power, it kind of disintegrated it. And the same thing happened with SDS when the Weathermen and the violent portion, people did not want to have anything to do with it anymore, including most people in SDS. DH (00:53:31): No. Yeah. SM (00:53:31): And so just what was happening there? What was this? How did they let this happen within their organizations? How did SDS and SNCC allow these more radical fringes to take over? Was it because of frustration and they were not feeling they were accomplishing anything? DH (00:53:54): That would have been part of it. I mean, I am sure there are a dozen books on this. SM (00:54:00): No, there are. DH (00:54:02): I would have to go back to, I mean, there are three or four histories of SDS, I am sure, or histories of the New Left that would detail its disintegration. But when would I date it from? SM (00:54:31): Well, when did you know, I got to get out of SDS? DH (00:54:37): No-no. SM (00:54:37): You were involved with David and Sam Brown organizing the moratorium. Obviously, you still had beliefs in (19)69, but the history says that the Vietnam Veterans Against- DH (00:54:47): No, they were already nuts by then. SM (00:54:50): Yes. DH (00:54:53): Well, you had different tendencies and debates within the anti-war. You had your old Left, you had your Trotskyites and your old fellow travelers from front groups originally set up by the CP 50s. And then you had your beloved community people and people like the Ginsbergs and the Ferlinghettis who were sort of in that cultural thing. And you had essentially the bulk of ADA, Americans for Democratic Action, which was the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. SM (00:56:01): Hubert Humphrey was in that. DH (00:56:03): Yeah, Hubert. That it split. But that had been organized by Reinhold Niebuhr, and Arthur Schlesinger, and John Kenneth Galbraith. And there was a hawk wing of that, but it was a small minority. Most went away. These were like Adlai Stevenson Democrats, Gene McCarthy. They were not Henry Wallace Democrats, but they were... Well, liberal Democrats. So you had the liberal Democrats turned against the war from the outset. They were opposed to the escalation of the war. And some of them were populists, like Frank Church, and the senator from Montana, he was Majority Leader. SM (00:57:20): Yeah, Mansfield. DH (00:57:20): Mansfield. SM (00:57:21): Mike Mansfield. DH (00:57:25): And some of the Democrats from California. But so were some of the Republicans from New York, Jacob Javits, they were not really. They were sort of liberals. So you had the utopians and you had the old Left. But out of frustration, I have not thought about this in a long time, why did this section of SDS go off the deep end? SM (00:58:21): I know Mark Rudd has written about it in his new book because he was part of that group. DH (00:58:26): Yeah, he sure was. I should read it. He is apologetic, I guess. SM (00:58:35): Yeah. Well, I did not know how much he was disliked by Bernardine Dohrn and some of those others. I mean, there is real dislike there. DH (00:58:45): Yeah. Oh, did he go underground? SM (00:58:51): Yes, he did. DH (00:58:52): Yes. Well, he was not exactly popular. I mean, he apparently had an abrasive personality, but that guy in Chicago who reemerged in the Clinton- SM (00:59:11): Obama. DH (00:59:13): Obama campaign. What was his name? SM (00:59:15): Oh, well, that is Bernardine- DH (00:59:15): Dohrn's husband. SM (00:59:18): Yeah. Oh, come on. It is Harris, I thought was his last name. DH (00:59:24): No-no, that is David Harris. [inaudible]. SM (00:59:26): Yeah, I interviewed David over the phone. Yeah, so it will come to me. DH (00:59:36): But you started, I do not know where people got the idea that they could make a revolution. Well, yes, I do know. It started with the fact that the liberals were being seen as sellouts, the Carl Oglesby faction about Vietnam being a war of corporate liberals, that the liberals, you had people saying that it is the liberals who are the problem. Corporate liberalism was defined as the enemy. And then they got the weird idea that you could make a revolution. And people got into anti-capitalism, but not in the Ralph Nader sense, but in the Marxist sense of wanting to make socialist revolution and the goofball idea of Che Guevara about two, three, many Vietnams. Remember this slogan? SM (01:00:58): Two, three, many Vietnams? DH (01:01:00): Yeah, that is what- SM (01:01:00): No, I do not. DH (01:01:02): Oh, ah, yeah-yeah. So his thing, he thought that what you needed was two, three, or more Vietnam struggles where America would get bogged down and defeated in Africa, Asia, and Latin America. So one of his slogans that was picked up by the New Left crazies was, "Two, three, many Vietnams." Because they thought that would lead to the collapse of American imperialism. And he said, "No, wait a minute. We do not want more Vietnams. We want to stop the one that is." So they were going off in a different direction. SM (01:01:55): This is the complexity of the time then is trying to understand the times and all of its complexity. If I had 500 people in a room that were boomers, people that were born after (19)46, could be people that were in (19)43, (19)44, too, and in 19... Well, right now, they said, "What was the one event that had the greatest impact on your life?" What do you think a group of boomers would say, and what was the one event that had the greatest impact on your life? DH (01:02:41): Oh, I suppose it would have been the experience in Mississippi, Freedom Summer for my life, discovering a... I mean, I had not seen rural Southern poverty. I mean, I did not have the idea growing up in middle class Allentown, Pennsylvania. Bethlehem collapsed several years later, so there was a lot of... decades later. But growing up in Allentown, that was a prosperous little market town in between the Pennsylvania Dutch farmers, the Bethlehem steel workers, and the anthracite coal miners. Well, Allentown is sort of situated in the middle and they had textiles. The (19)50s, that is when people got the postwar American dream. So I had no idea that there was poverty, like I saw in Mississippi. I saw racial, social hatred. People hated other people. Why there was this hatred, why there was this poverty, why was there this hatred? What was that? I suppose that was- SM (01:04:47): It shaped your life, even beyond the anti-war and the- DH (01:04:52): Yeah. Well- SM (01:04:53): Was it because of your work with... Could you talk a little bit about how that experience may have helped shape you in terms of your professional life beyond school with Amnesty International, with the things that you have written about, I think Cambodia and- DH (01:05:06): North Korea. SM (01:05:08): ...North Korea, with some of the terrible things that people do to other people, it seems like there is a link there. DH (01:05:13): Of course. I mean, it was called at the time, the civil rights movement. Okay, but what it was about was civil and political rights. King was never successful in turning the corner and tackling economic rights. I mean, he tried, the Poor People's Campaign, the stuff he tried in Chicago, but tackling urban poverty, and it never succeeded. But it was called the civil rights movement. 20 years later, if it were happening now, it would be called the human rights movement. And it was called the woman's movement. The gays took over- [inaudible] though the gaze took over, took the language. By the (19)70s, when that got up and going, the word human rights had entered the vocabulary. But human rights is civil right, political rights, economic rights, and social rights. Civil, political, economic, social, and cultural. The five sets of rights and that is what we would call it nowadays. The human rights movement was called the civil rights movement then. But that is what I have been doing ever since. And the Vietnam experience, working in international affairs has sort of internationalized it, so it was not just a purely domestic issue anymore. It was internationalized and it was not just Vietnam and the Tiger Cages or the treatment of POW's, our POW's or theirs. But it was the traction gained by the apartheid movement, that was international human rights. So essentially the Vietnam War gave it an international focus, but it is essentially the same kind of work that I was doing domestically in the civil rights movement in Mississippi and Georgia. SM (01:08:17): Basically what you was doing is what Dr. King wanted to do when he was expanding, because he talked about economics beyond race. DH (01:08:26): Sure. SM (01:08:28): And then he went north when they told him not to go north. A Cicero incident. We all know what happened there. And then of course, his speech on Vietnam, which people told him he should not do. Even people in the civil rights community. DH (01:08:42): Yeah, sure. SM (01:08:43): It was Rabbi Heschel who promoted and pushed it and said, "You need to do this." DH (01:08:48): Yeah. My old professor. SM (01:08:50): Well, he is an unbelievable person. There is a biography on him you ought to read. It is unbelievable. He has not talked about enough. People do not know him and he is very important. DH (01:09:02): I certainly remember him fondly. I took three classes with him. I went to Union to study with Lionel Neber. Neber had a stroke my first year, so I never got to study with Neber. But I ended up studying with Heschel. SM (01:09:18): You were lucky. My goodness. DH (01:09:18): Yeah. SM (01:09:18): You were close to Dr. King. DH (01:09:18): Pardon? SM (01:09:22): You were real close. DH (01:09:22): Oh yes, yes. I got to [inaudible]. I met King in those years. I went to his, before King gave his speech at Riverside Church. He had several meetings at Union Seminary, which is right across the street. SM (01:09:47): Really? DH (01:09:47): Yeah, because that is where Heschel was then. Heschel was still at the Jewish Theological, but he actually took a leave for two years and taught Old Testament at Union. And I was one of his students. And I taught Old Testament theology. But King, the president of the seminary was a guy by the name of John Bennett, who was Lionel Neber's main disciple. He taught Christian ethics also and wrote on ethics and international affairs, but became the president of the seminary. And he was challenging the students at Union to do more about Vietnam. SM (01:10:40): That is a great professor. DH (01:10:43): He was the president of the seminary, probably the only professor, the only president of a university that was exhorting students to do more about Vietnam. But King had several meetings and he was trying to figure out if he should come, if he should oppose Johnson as strongly as he did. If he should really break with LBJ. SM (01:11:11): Were you in those meetings? DH (01:11:13): I was. Well, I was in a couple of them. Some of them took place in Dr. Bennett's apartment at Union and others took place in his lawyer's office. He had a left wing lawyer. I forget the guy's name. SM (01:11:34): Oh, not Alan Mosley? DH (01:11:36): No-no, not Alan. SM (01:11:37): He was a professor at, I do not know. I do not remember the lawyer's name. DH (01:11:42): Oh. But Alan was very... SM (01:11:43): Cussler. DH (01:11:44): Pardon? No-no-no-no. It was not Cussler. It was... SM (01:11:54): Cussler worked [inaudible]. Yeah. Cussler was involved in defending people who got busted in the civil rights community. Yeah, that is what he did. Could you describe, because the only person I have ever talked to whose ever been in a meeting with Dr. King was James Farmer. In our campus and he shared so much with me at dinner and then I went with him for an hour and a half. And then of course we talked about it. But what was that like? I have some other basic questions here, but what a meeting like being with Dr. King in the room? DH (01:12:29): Well, he had these meetings to listen to what people had to say. He actually talked very little. I mean, he had these meetings to hear what people had to say. So he was very modest and soft-spoken. But you were obviously sitting in a living room with a Nobel Peace Prize winner who was thinking about something that was a world shaking impact and importance. So the meetings were not particularly dramatic. They were really him thinking, a little bit of thinking out loud. SM (01:13:36): Were you in a meeting where he actually said, "I had made the decision that I am going to go," or "Yeah, I am going to make the speech at church," or because if he had been wavering because what I read about Rabbi Heschel, you should not waiver. You ought to do it. And because people within the civil rights community, African American ministers were really upset with him. DH (01:14:00): Oh, sure. Well, they did not like him in the civil rights part either. Yeah. And then they, certainly, the Roy Wilkins and the Bayer trust in factions. SM (01:14:16): [inaudible] young was in that group. DH (01:14:18): Certainly opposed going against LBJ on foreign policies since what he had done so much for civil rights and was trying to do the war on poverty and going to, so it was really extraordinary, and I expect that Rabbi Heschel, who really was his spiritual mentor, he was Dr. King's rabbi. SM (01:14:52): I think Rabbi needs to be uplifted and not hidden. There is just so much history of this year that is hidden that our young people need to know about. DH (01:15:04): Yeah. Well, they do not study history anymore. But at any rate, okay, what are some of your questions? SM (01:15:10): Yeah, okay. Answering the one question there about what do you think the a group would say, the number one of event would be to shape their life? Yours was going down south. What would be the... DH (01:15:25): I have no idea. You would have to ask other people. SM (01:15:30): I have asked a lot of other people. Some people think John Kennedy's assassination, there is a lot of individual... DH (01:15:36): Oh wow. SM (01:15:37): It is more individual. I want to read something here. There is two basic issues that I am trying to get at in this interview process. One has to do with the issue of healing. And the other is the issue of trust. Oh, I am going to read this because we took a group of students to see Senator Edmund Muskie about a year and a half before he passed away. I got to know Gaylor Nelson and we had these unenrolled leadership trips, eight to 14 students [inaudible] meetings. And the students planned a question to ask him because they thought he was going to respond based on what happened at the 1968 convention. But, he totally gave a totally different response. This was the question the students came up with. Do you feel that the boomer generation or the young people that period are still having problems with healing from the divisions that tore the nation apart and their youth, divisions between black and white, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize, divisions between those who supported the troops and those who did not, including those that went to war and those who did not? What has the wall played in healing these divisions? And is it, or was that just primarily healing for veterans? Do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the civil war generation not truly healing? Am I wrong in thinking this after it was then last 30 years, now it is 40 years. Taking this after so many years, or has the statement, time heals all wounds, stay true? Now there is a lot there, but what we are trying to get at is it is like the people going to the Vietnam memorials and rethinking, or maybe I should not have been in the war. Maybe I should not have done what I did when I was young. Kids ask their father what they did in the war. Those kind of things, the healing. And I would go to Gettysburg a lot and you know, you even lived near Gettysburg when you were young. And one of the things you find at Gettysburg is the fact that on the southern side, so many things are left. People come up from the south, leave decals that they have not really forgotten. DH (01:17:45): No-no. SM (01:17:45): And you do not see anything on the northern side. Nothing. And I have noticed that for years because I go there four or five times just to get a feel of the terrible... You know, war is, it is just terrible. But Senator Muskie, basically his response was this, and then I will hear your response. His response was, he did not respond. Typical of what you saw on the news, he started to have tears in his eyes and he did not speak for a minute. And then he said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." Instead of talking about the (19)60s, he went out, I am talking for the next 10 minutes, 15, about the Civil War. Because he had just seen the Ken Burns series when he was in the hospital. The fact that we had lost almost an entire generation, 440,000 died, men died and all that other stuff. So that is what he talked about. But do you think we have a problem with healing in this nation? Is that this group of 70 million is, you know, you cannot do individually, but I have talked to enough people, there is something going on there. Is that an issue? DH (01:18:55): I do not think any more than any other people, and perhaps less. I bet that, well, I do not bet. I know there is more unhealing between Vietnamese who supported the North and Vietnamese who supported the South, there is still rank hostility there. That would be more comparable to our civil war, I suppose. I do not have this, and I bet Chilean people have not healed between those who were pro-Pinochet and those who were opposed Pinochet, the people who supported Allende and those who supported Pinochet probably are more hostile to each other than people who supported McGovern versus people who supported Nixon. Our disputes were, for the most part, not life and death struggles. Those other struggles were life and death. And people on both sides lost their lives. SM (01:20:40): Wow. DH (01:20:41): So I... SM (01:20:48): I preface this by saying, Jan Scruggs wrote that book, the founder of the Vietnam Memorial, 'To Heal a Nation', which was his book, very well received. And of course the goal of the Vietnam Memorial was to create a non-political entity [inaudible] to those who paid the ultimate sacrifice and to help their families and to heal, and the veterans themselves. I know there is still not a lot of healing within the vets, but... DH (01:21:12): Oh, I think it succeeded enormously. I do not know of anybody who has not moved, whether they were draft resistors or whether they were Vietnam vets. Everybody I know of whose ever seen it is enormously moved by the wall. It was just a genius of an idea. SM (01:21:39): Oh yeah. Well, it is still... DH (01:21:42): Compared to the idiotic [inaudible], the memorial to the Korean War vets is just awful. And the new one to the World War II vets is just awful also. It is that gargantuan circle with the columns in Washington. That is really ugly. Any rate, so I do not think, but I am sure there is some bitterness, but I think a lot of people have gotten over it. SM (01:22:23): So the walls painted, it does not have a decent job [inaudible] that is even beyond the vets. DH (01:22:30): I think so, yes. I mean because it is so successful as a memorial that the vets feel that their friends who lost their lives are recognized and memorialized. So, you have small, small traces of the POW mentality. But that is faded as it is now ceased to become tenable. That there are still people being held. And also by the fact that the Vietnamese and the Americans get along so well. SM (01:23:26): Well, 85 percent of the people I believe that live in Vietnam now, were not even alive when the... DH (01:23:33): And they love Americans. SM (01:23:34): Right. It is beautiful. DH (01:23:36): And veterans go back there and are received, they got up and they are received with open arms. SM (01:23:43): There is a respect between the warriors ever since then. DH (01:23:48): Yeah. Or the young people who enlist their parents and grandparents, not them. SM (01:23:57): The other issue is the label of trust. Boomers, people saw so many leaders lie to them in their view. And actually as they have gotten older, it is like lies continue amongst other presidents. And I guess we are looking at leadership here, whether it be Watergate with Nixon, whether it be President Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin. Even recent things written about President Kennedy and what he did or did not know about the overthrow of Diem. You know a little bit about Eisenhower lying about U2. A lot of people did not trust Ford when Nixon was leaving. And of course, Reagan and Iran-Contra. It goes on and on. So there is a lack of trust. And I am wondering if this goes back to something when I was in college where a professor said, "If you cannot trust people that you may not be a success in life. You have to trust others. Being able to trust others is important for a human being." As a generation if they are advertised or labeled as a non-trusting generation, is that good or bad? Or am I wrong in this interpretation? DH (01:25:07): I have no idea. I do not know. I mean, it seems so routine that governments lie. They just do. But yeah, I have no idea. SM (01:25:36): A political science professor would say, because they teach politics, is that the art of politics is really about not trusting your government because you do not trust your government, that is healthy. That is what a political scientist would say. DH (01:25:50): Okay. SM (01:26:00): I do not know if there is any reaction to that or not, but do you, and again, maybe you cannot answer this, but I have asked a lot of people the question is, have boomers been good parents, have they raised good kids and grandkids now? Now I cannot talk about grandkids in terms of doing some of the things they did where they were young in terms of activism. Where has activism gone? There is a lot of good things being done and there is always examples of it everywhere and Amnesty International. There is a lot of great groups out there that do great things. But did they really passed their experiences on, have you passed your experiences on to younger people? Because sometimes that is very important as they evolve [inaudible] into adults. DH (01:26:48): I do not know. SM (01:26:58): I think what I am really getting at here is, are you pleased... Forget about the boomers. These young people that were young in the (19)60s and the (19)70s who have now gone on, who are now reaching social security age this year for the first time. Have they really lived up to their beliefs, their idealism? And again, we are only talking even about 15 percent of 70 million. That is still a lot of people. Are you disappointed? DH (01:27:29): Never even thought about it. It is not a question that would have occurred to me. And I do not know how you generalize about that. I am just drawing a blank on that one. SM (01:27:50): Yeah. What were we just talking about? Had not thought... DH (01:27:57): I do not know about trust. SM (01:27:59): Yeah. But it is about the responses that many people have had is that I am very disappointed in these young people as opposed to the young people from then. So... DH (01:28:13): Well, I mean, I meet a lot of young people. The young people I meet, are the committed ones. The activist ones. Those are who I meet and they are great. SM (01:28:27): Well, a couple more questions here. And that is looking at the movements of that period because movements are really part of what the older generation was all about. There were so many movements that about, you already talked about being in the civil rights as a young person, civil rights movement and the anti-war movement itself. But the other movements that evolved around this period, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano, the Native American, the environmental movement, all these movements kind of looked to the civil rights movement as kind of a teacher. DH (01:28:57): Yeah, sure. SM (01:28:59): And it seemed like they were together. There was a lot of togetherness. When you did that 1969 moratorium, I would assume that you had probably individuals from all those groups there. Earth Day had not happened yet, but... DH (01:29:15): The what? SM (01:29:15): Earth Day had not happened until 1970, but... DH (01:29:18): No, we knew the Earth Day people very well. And we agreed with them. And they agreed with us. I mean, they were all opposed to the war. They came to our demonstrations. We had not thought about the issues they were raising, but when they raised them, we agreed with them. But yes, so Earth Day was that spring. SM (01:29:57): Right. DH (01:30:00): So they were interested in us because we had run big demonstrations and that is what they were doing. So we knew them and liked them. SM (01:30:10): All these other groups that I mentioned. You were linked to them though in some way, were not you? Explain more of that moratorium. How much work went into that, explain when the idea came up and you know that, how long it took you and you had a big crowd, but that kind of was the last hurrah. DH (01:30:29): No-no-no. It was probably nothing bigger than the October (19)69 moratorium because that was decentralized. But I would not be surprised if some of the Earth Day things. But certainly you then had bigger demonstrations in Washington for various things over the years. The idea for the moratorium... Oh, excuse me. SM (01:31:07): I hope I am not tiring you. DH (01:31:13): Pain from... Oh, I think I need to make some coffee. After the McCarthy campaign, I was working for the National Student Association as their anti-Vietnam and anti-draft coordinator in Washington. And there, Sam Brown was at the Kennedy School at Harvard. There was a peace group, an old line peace group in Boston called Mass PAC, Massachusetts Peace Action Council or something. And the guy that ran it was his named Jerry Grossman. He was a businessman. I think he made envelopes. But Mass PAC had the idea of an expanding student strike of you would start off at the campuses for one day, then the next month you would try to expand it for two days and then the third month expand it for three days and you try to make it larger, bigger, and longer each month. We changed, and it seemed like a good idea. I have been at the National Student Association, you work with student governments and college newspaper editors as opposed to your local peace committees. So there is always a student body president, there is always a student council, there is always college newspaper's. So it sort of institutionalized. And by that time, almost all people who got to be student body presidents or editor of their college newspaper were anti-war. And with the editors, you had a base to get your opinions out because they ran the student newspaper, they wrote the editorials and with the student... We took the idea. No, so we had this network of student body presidents, college newspaper editors and changed the idea. Instead of calling it a strike, we called it a moratorium because there had been that spring, the spring of (19)69, I forget what campuses erupted then. Maybe Cornell, Columbia. SM (01:34:02): Oh yes, Cornell for sure. DH (01:34:05): Harvard. You know you... SM (01:34:07): Harvard Yard. Yep. DH (01:34:10): So this was not designed to, this was not a protest against the college administration. This was against, it was designed to show Nixon and Kissinger that if they wanted to close out the war in Vietnam, there would be a lot of public support for doing that. So we did not like the term, students strike because of what had gone on the campuses that preceding spring. The word strike would sound as if it is directed against the college administration. And it was not. But at any rate, it seemed like this was mixed. The four of us who did it who were the national coordinators all met in the moratorium, I mean in the McCarthy campaign. SM (01:35:20): Okay. DH (01:35:20): So we were like the liberal wing of the anti-war movement who were not opposed to electoral politics or working with capitalist politicians. So we had got a bunch of these student body presidents and editors together in my office in Washington. And Sam came down from Boston and pitched this idea, which he had gotten from Jerry Grossman. And they sort of liked it. So we set up an office and over the summer with two or three people, called college administrations to find out the name and home phone number of the student body presidents. SM (01:36:28): And they gave it out. DH (01:36:29): And in those years they gave it out. SM (01:36:33): They do not do that now. DH (01:36:33): They do not do that now. And then we tracked these people down on their, wherever they were for the summer and say, "We have this thing that we wanted to see if you are interested in. Send me some information." And because we wanted to start in the middle of October, so you would have to start organizing it as soon as kids come back in September. So there was only three, four weeks to organize it once you return to school. But originally the press was interested in us and the reporters that were assigned to cover what we were doing were the reporters for Time, and Newsweek, and US News & World Report who covered the campus, who covered education. They wanted to know what was going to happen on the colleges tonight. And so we went public about what we were doing. And so the Press Corps in Washington, we knew a lot of them. We knew the journalists who covered the McCarthy, the political journalists who covered the McCarthy campaign. Ayi-yi-yi. SM (01:38:07): I think you answered that pretty good. Okay. Quick question here and with respect to why the Vietnam War ended, just your thoughts on why it ended, if there is one major reason, and number two, how important were the college students in ending the war in Vietnam? DH (01:38:47): Well, they were probably the major, they were the face of the opposition to the war in Vietnam. It was the faculty...It was the faculty and students, and a lot more students. They were more important than the faculty. The war ended. We were able to build up enough pressure on the administration that they had to withdraw the troops in dribs and drabs. If they did not keep bringing the troops out, the pressure would have built up again. And by that time, pressure would be coming from Congress as well. It was clear enough that Congress wanted the war to be brought to a close. The clearest indication of which was the growing congressional support for resolutions that cut the funding. SM (01:40:20): Yeah. DH (01:40:22): That is real clear. And it was... SM (01:40:29): I believe Senator Nelson was involved in that, too. DH (01:40:35): Oh, sure. SM (01:40:35): Yeah. DH (01:40:35): Yeah. So it was a Republican, Goodell? SM (01:40:42): Yes. Yeah. DH (01:40:43): From New York. SM (01:40:44): Yes-yes. A big, big person for this. DH (01:40:46): Hatfield, McGovern. There were two. SM (01:40:47): Yep. DH (01:40:48): There was a softer one and a harder one. I forget which is which. But Hatfield and McGovern. Were they... That must have been the harder one. SM (01:41:01): Right. DH (01:41:06): I do not recall them exactly. They had nixed it, I remember. SM (01:41:10): I know that senator, the one from Alaska, too. DH (01:41:13): Oh, it is Stevens. Ted Stevens, yeah. SM (01:41:15): Hruska? I forget the... He was against it, too. DH (01:41:21): Oh. Oh, it was not- SM (01:41:22): Yeah, Stevens. DH (01:41:22): He is the terrible guy. SM (01:41:23): Yeah. DH (01:41:40): Oh... SM (01:41:40): It was H-R-U-S-K-A. I know. It was Senator Hruska. And Senator Harris was also involved in that as well. DH (01:41:40): Kissinger and Nixon thought that they were going to be able to rely on US air power. They were only withdrawing the troops. The US bombing in support of the South Vietnamese troops was supposed to continue. But then Congress did cut off the funds, and they could not continue the bombing. And without air support, neither the North Vietnamese nor the South Vietnamese abided by the terms of the Paris Agreement. That was a face-saving mechanism to get us out. But neither the North nor the South followed it. So it was clear that they were going to fight each other once we left. Kissinger and Nixon thought they would be able to use US air power to tip the balance, but they could not, so the two armies fought it out. And from the very first battle, the South Vietnamese Army collapsed. Precipitously, they lost the first two battles. After that, they did not fight anymore. They all just fled, and it ended in a rout. SM (01:43:01): In 1975, when Phil Caputo was there in Vietnam as a reporter, not as a Marine, he talks about the fear of being shot by the South Vietnamese military for "They are abandoning us." Those kinds of things. Real fast here. Books. What were the books that people were reading? Do you remember what you were reading when you were in college, and in the (19)60s? What were the Students for a Democratic Society students reading? What were the anti-war students reading? Were there any books that stood out, the authors? You mentioned Che already, Che Guevara, what he had to say. DH (01:43:46): No, but he was- SM (01:43:47): Yeah. Yeah, [inaudible]. DH (01:43:48): He was a nut case. SM (01:43:49): Yeah. DH (01:43:51): Oh, I do not know. John Kenneth Galbraith, The Affluent Society. SM (01:44:02): Big book. DH (01:44:03): That was a... Oh. Oh, the... SM (01:44:12): Going to the back stretches of your mind here. We are bringing stuff out. DH (01:44:25): Erich Fromm, the psychologist. SM (01:44:28): The psychologist. Right. DH (01:44:37): He wrote books. Ah, Samuelson, Economics 101. Everybody read Samuelson. I am trying to think. I mean, I do not know. You could read the same... SM (01:45:05): Were books like The Greening of America, does that... Did you read that? DH (01:45:09): Yeah, but that was later. That was not college. That was much later. Yes, I remember reading it. I thought it was a very odd book to come from a law professor. But we were part of it. It was sort of fun. It was a book about us. SM (01:45:33): And there was Theodore Roszak's The Making of a Counter Culture. There was Harry Edwards' Black Students. There were a lot of really good ones. Most of them were in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, those books. DH (01:45:44): Yeah. When I was at Union, I did read everything [inaudible] wrote. I mean, I read all of his books. SM (01:46:03): Did you read King? DH (01:46:05): Oh, you mean his- SM (01:46:05): He wrote six books. DH (01:46:11): I am sure I did, but they were mostly sermons. The Autobiography of Malcolm X. Or Manchild in the Promised Land. Claude Brown, Manchild in the Promised Land. SM (01:46:31): Oh, yeah. DH (01:46:32): And the Autobiography of Malcolm X. SM (01:46:34): Alex Haley wrote it. DH (01:46:36): Yeah. C. Wright Mills. SM (01:46:43): White Collar? DH (01:46:44): Yeah. SM (01:46:45): Tom Hayden wrote a book on that. DH (01:46:46): Pardon? SM (01:46:47): Tom Hayden wrote a book on C. Wright Mills. DH (01:46:53): His... SM (01:46:54): Recently. DH (01:46:55): Oh. SM (01:46:55): He is a prolific writer. I mean, he is putting a book out every year now. Couple of the- DH (01:47:03): Oh. Oh, I am trying to think. Guy who just died. He used to write for the Village Voice. No-no. SM (01:47:17): I know who you are talking about. Not William Sapphire. It is... He just passed away, but... Kempton? DH (01:47:25): No, not Mary Kempton. No-no. SM (01:47:28): Well, couple of the... There were slogans. Slogans were very important part. You already mentioned Che Guevara's slogan, and "We Shall Overcome," which is the Civil Rights Movement. There were three that I have been mentioning in the last part of my interviews. The last 50 people I have interviewed. Not the first 50 because it has been going on a long time. Three that may define the entire era. One of them is Malcolm X, too. "By any means necessary." That is number one. The second one is Bobby Kennedy, which was a Henry David Thoreau quote, "Some men see things as they are and ask why, I see things that never were and ask why not." That is kind of the activism, the anti-war. DH (01:48:14): Mm-hmm. SM (01:48:14): And then you have got the counterculture, which is really the Peter Mack posters with the artists who put unbelievable quotes. And I had it on my door as one of the biggest selling posters in 1970, (19)71, at Ohio State. The words were, you do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful." And that is kind of the counterculture, hippie-dippy kind of.... DH (01:48:36): Yeah. That is the new one. Never heard of that one. That one passed me by. SM (01:48:41): Well, I regret not having the poster. The poster is worth about $500. Those things you bought in the store that were in the round, they only made so many of them. Do you think those really define... If you were to say the quotes, when I mentioned those three, someone said, "You have got to say, 'We shall overcome.'" Do you think that really combines the era? "By any means necessary" is symbolic of SDS and Black Power? DH (01:49:11): Oh, I do not know. I mean, no, that is just, well, I do not know. My response to it is that that is empty rhetoric. There is no substance to that. What does it mean? I mean, this was just rhetorical militancy. That is like the other slogan associated with Malcolm X. "He was ready. Are you?" No, I was... The only one of those that... To me, "any means necessary" is empty rhetoric. What does it mean when the other people have all the guns? SM (01:50:03): Right. DH (01:50:05): And sometimes you have the vote, sometimes you do not. What is "any means necessary"? What is that? It is meaningless. And I never heard of the last one you mentioned. So, by a process of elimination, the Thoreau quote is probably the best example of the nerve and spirit that Bobby Kennedy struck during his last year of his political life. And that which rekindled the idealism that John Kennedy had, the new frontier had sparked five, six years earlier. Bobby Kennedy revived that, and that quote is probably the core or the essence of what he was aspiring to when he ran for president. SM (01:51:44): Yeah. Because, boy, that speech he gave in Indianapolis was just- DH (01:51:47): Whew. SM (01:51:47): ...Off the cuff, and it was just unbelievable. There was something that Senator McCarthy, when I interviewed him in (19)96, the only thing where he basically said, "I will not comment, read it in my book" was when I mentioned Bobby Kennedy. So there was still- DH (01:52:04): Oh, yeah. SM (01:52:05): Yeah, he... Being a person, as you and David and others who worked for McCarthy, were you upset when he just simply disappeared? I mean, he decided not to run? That is still a mystery, why he just kind of gave up. DH (01:52:22): No-no. No. I mean, I actually stayed close with him for all of... I saw him a couple weeks before he died. SM (01:52:36): Oh, you did? DH (01:52:36): Yes. SM (01:52:37): I went to... Were you at the church when they had the memorial? DH (01:52:41): Yes. SM (01:52:41): I was there. I sat over to the left. DH (01:52:43): Oh. SM (01:52:43): You could see me on C-SPAN. All the dignitaries were in the center. I sat over to the left. He was just a nice person. We got along because we were both Irish, and I had met him four times. And I gave him a sweatshirt at Westchester University when we went down once. And I said something to him, "I think probably most of the people give these sweatshirts to secretaries." He says, "well, I am not going to give it to a secretary. I want to keep it and wear it because it was green." And I get this letter at home. I sent him a letter thanking him for meeting our students. And I got this nice, nice note from him that he sent to me. And then he had two pictures. He was standing in front of his home, wearing the Westchester sweatshirt. And he said basically, "See, I told you I was going to wear it." Yeah, I liked him. I liked him because we hit it off, and I love the fact that he always would quote the poet, Lowell. So he was good. DH (01:53:50): Yeah. How many years was he the senator? 12, 18? SM (01:53:52): I think it was 18. He went out along with... Boy, the 1980 coup with all of... Senator Nelson. DH (01:54:01): Yeah. There was a- SM (01:54:02): Senator McCarthy, Birch Bayh, I mean, it was unbelievable. They all went out at the same time. DH (01:54:07): Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah. 18 years at the same job. I have never had the same job. He had been a congressman too. Yeah. So there was nothing that he was going to do as a senator that he had not done. He had no aspiration to be head of... Speaker... Not Speaker of the House. Yeah, no. Yeah. Whatever that was. SM (01:54:42): Majority leader. DH (01:54:44): Yeah. He did not want to. He was much too much of a poet to do back room deals, which is what the majority leader has to do. And nothing he was going to do as a senator would match what he did in (19)68. So- SM (01:54:59): Right. DH (01:55:10): He was really a poet. He was an intellectual. He was much more- SM (01:55:12): He had a PhD, did not he, in history? And he was a professor and he was chair of his department. DH (01:55:17): Yeah. Yeah. He was a serious Irish intellectual. Literature, I think. Or what? Politics. SM (01:55:28): Yeah, I am not sure either. But I know McGovern has a PhD too. DH (01:55:32): Yeah, he does. SM (01:55:33): Very smart people. DH (01:55:35): So at any rate, I was not surprised. And then he wrote poetry. We stayed in touch. My wife is much more interested in poetry. So they would talk a lot because they could talk about the poets. And she was in English Lit major. SM (01:55:59): They said when he passed, he was in a senior home someplace or... DH (01:56:01): Yeah. Yeah. We went to see him there. And he was basically in and out of consciousness. Or in and out of recognition. He recognized Sam Brown. Sam and I and our wives went to see him. And he recognized Sam and he recognized me. And you would have snatches of conversation for a couple of sentences, but... So of course, we were really glad that we got to see him because he died several weeks later. So I was glad to see him before he- SM (01:56:40): Nice to see Bill Clinton there. Bill Clinton was there and spoke too. That was nice. I am at the last part of the interview. Thanks for going over, too. I have gone over by time here. DH (01:56:51): Oh, yeah. SM (01:56:51): Yep. But I want to just end by just, if you can just give me quick responses. These are just names of... Whoops. These are just names of people or terms or events. And just, I know it is hard to put in a few words, but just your overall quick reaction to these. What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? DH (01:57:13): Oh, the fitting and appropriate way to honor those who died, even though the war was lost and should not have been fought. SM (01:57:41): What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? DH (01:58:00): The tail end and the height of the protest against the war, and the increasing repression that was stimulated by the Mitchells and Agnews in their response to our protests. SM (01:58:20): Watergate. DH (01:58:25): Latent dishonesty of the administration. And its willingness to violate the law, knowingly, purposefully. SM (01:58:37): Woodstock and the Summer of Love. DH (01:58:41): Well, Woodstock was just the rock and roll and the counterculture, and the awareness of the size of the countercultural constituency. Summer of Love, because that was (19)67. That was... No, it is not San Francisco. SM (01:59:07): Yeah, it was San Francisco. DH (01:59:09): Oh. No, that was the beginning of- SM (01:59:10): Haight-Ashbury. Golden Gate Park, all that. DH (01:59:14): That was the golden era of the flower children, before bad drugs turned it nasty. SM (01:59:30): How about just the words hippies and yippies? They are different. DH (01:59:36): Yeah, sure they are different. Oh, I liked the hippies. I admired the political theater of the yippies and the idea of going to the Stock Exchange, throwing dollar bills from the balcony. I mean, you got to admire someone who came up with that idea. But for the most part, they were crazies. And we wanted them to do their thing somewhere different from where we were doing our thing. Because they were not as counterproductive as the pro-Vietcong left. I mean, those people, with their Vietcong flags, were setting us back. Because that is what drove the union people, the working people, nuts. That was really unpatriotic. Because we wanted the hippies not to do their thing at our demonstrations. So if they did their thing on their own, like bills from the Stock Exchange, fine. That is great political theater. But do not do it at our demonstrations. SM (02:01:06): How about the year 1968? DH (02:01:09): Great year. SM (02:01:14): That is- DH (02:01:18): Great Year. We drove LBJ from office. SM (02:01:22): We lost some important people, in Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy. That was sad. DH (02:01:30): Oh, yeah. It surely was. But when I think of (19)68, I think of... And obviously, the Chicago convention was awful. SM (02:01:45): Right. DH (02:01:47): But I think of... (19)68 to me is New Hampshire and Wisconsin primaries. SM (02:01:49): Were you at the (19)68 convention? DH (02:01:49): I was, yes. And I was in New Hampshire and Wisconsin too. SM (02:01:58): Oh, my god. DH (02:01:58): Yeah, so... SM (02:02:01): How about Vietnam Veterans Against the War? DH (02:02:07): Fabulous. Fabulous. It was invaluable. SM (02:02:15): They kind of took over the movement after the SDS kind of faltered. DH (02:02:20): Well, SDS was involved in the first... They sponsored the first anti-war demonstration in Washington in 1965. They then dropped out of the anti-war movement and went into community organizing. And Hayden went over to Newark and did that project there. And they did not reenter the anti-war thing until [inaudible] and The Weathermen, by which time they were totally destructive. They were involved in the anti-war movement at its founding, but then they did not pursue it. They actually dropped out. They were into global revolution and anti-imperialist throw. SM (02:03:15): But the Black Panthers, which is really there is seven or eight of them, because you have got to think of H. Rap Brown and Stokely Carmichael. But you think of Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Norman... Angela Davis. They are all Black Panthers in their own way. They all had a... And Elaine Brown and Dave Hilliard. There is a lot of them. Just your thoughts on the Black Panthers as a whole. DH (02:03:42): Well, most of them were praised nut cases. The one I remember the best is Fred Hampton. SM (02:03:56): Yeah, he was killed. DH (02:03:57): Yeah. I went to his funeral in Chicago. The police went after them in ways that violated their civil liberties, to put it mildly. And the police targeted and killed them. Those were police executions. Totally unjustified. But you know, you sort of admired the bravado of the early Panthers, but [inaudible]. And I am not sure that, what is her name... Angela Davis was never a Panther. She was really an orthodox Marxist-Leninist, Communist Party member. But a lot of the Panthers were sort of crazy. They were going off. They were off the deep end. And some of them were heavily involved in criminality. They were actually criminals who picked up on human rights, civil rights rhetoric. But they were flaky. And I guess Eldridge Cleaver wrote well or something. SM (02:05:21): Wrote for Ramparts. DH (02:05:22): Oh. SM (02:05:24): Yeah. DH (02:05:24): But after Ramparts had its... Its best [inaudible] were behind it. SM (02:05:29): Yeah. And Kathleen Cleavers went on to be a lawyer at Emory. So she is writing her biography right now. DH (02:05:36): Oh. SM (02:05:36): And she is a pretty nice person. Of course, she is kind of different than the rest of them. So anyways- DH (02:05:45): Well, you know, they burned themselves out. SM (02:05:49): Right. Jane Fonda. These are just names now. Just real quick thoughts on names. DH (02:06:03): Good actress, gorgeous lady. Made great fitness videos. Got in over her head on the... And lost her head on Vietnam. Said some dumb stuff. SM (02:06:40): Tom Hayden. DH (02:06:40): Very good writer. Went off the deep end, in my opinion, very early on. SM (02:06:51): About Rennie Davis? DH (02:06:53): A sweet guy. Rennie was a friend. We enjoyed each other's company a lot. But he burned himself out too. I do not know what he ended up doing. SM (02:07:13): Yeah, I interviewed him. He is doing the spirituality things right now. DH (02:07:17): Is that right? SM (02:07:18): Yeah. DH (02:07:18): Oh. SM (02:07:19): And of course he went on to be very successful in technology and things. DH (02:07:24): He is a very-very bright guy, but really sweet. Very nice guy. SM (02:07:29): Timothy Leary. DH (02:07:43): Oh. Someone else who also went off the deep end. Took too much LSD, I suppose. It may have happened to him anyway, but certainly, certainly he lost it. SM (02:07:55): Phillip and Daniel Berrigan. DH (02:08:05): Made a terrific contribution. I wish there were thousands more. There. Along with Pope John, the Berrigans are my favorite Catholics. SM (02:08:20): I think, yeah, we had them both on our campus. And actually, we brought Philip in, his last speech. His last speech was given in Philip's Library five weeks before he died. I went to his funeral. DH (02:08:32): Oh, my. SM (02:08:32): Yeah, so... DH (02:08:34): Yeah. Well, they were great. Yeah, the McCarthys were a little bit like that. A stream of Irish Catholicism that... They were the redeeming strain. They were really good. There was the Jesuit-trained intellectuality. SM (02:08:55): He was an expert. I was going to ask too. Eugene McCarthy and Bobby Kennedy, just quick thoughts on both of them. DH (02:09:07): Well. Oh, well, McCarthy was terrific. Bobby made up for, in the last year or two of his life... Because previously, I do not know what he did that amounted to much good other than I suppose helping his brother get elected president. But he was a spoiled rich kid. SM (02:09:53): How about, talking about- DH (02:09:53): But his last two years redeemed. SM (02:09:57): He was very important in the missile crisis. Very important. If you read Thirteen... Well, I think one of the classic books of all time is Thirteen- DH (02:10:08): Oh, yeah. SM (02:10:08): And there is no question that he did help his brother. And thank the Lord, because they were the only two that were not going to go bombing down in Cuba. John Kennedy and Richard Nixon. DH (02:10:29): Well, I was... The New Frontier sparked something in my life, but I was actually never much of a fan of Kennedy's presidency. At the time, I was critical that he was not doing enough on civil rights, actually. Who was the other one? Oh, Nixon. SM (02:11:13): Nixon. Nixon. DH (02:11:14): Oh, what a very complex, very complex guy. And it is too bad about Vietnam and Watergate because he did two things in foreign policy that were terrific. One of which was the reconciliation with China, and detente with the Soviet Union. And those were brilliant. And he was- DH (02:12:01): ...and he was such an odd liberal in his domestic policy. He did wage and price controls. He started the Environmental Protection Agency and was interested in a guaranteed annual income. Do you remember that? SM (02:12:26): Mm-hmm. DH (02:12:28): He was toying around with that idea. So he was willing to do what was then considered radical welfare reform, of the sort that welfare rights organization and only leftists were arguing for. SM (02:12:46): What is interesting is Dennis Hayes, who I interviewed, he mentioned that Nixon really did not give a darn about the environment. What he ended up doing is he created what you just mentioned, because he thought it was going to bring votes to him, so... DH (02:13:00): Well... SM (02:13:01): He was a pragmatist, a pragmatic fellow. DH (02:13:04): Yeah. But he... SM (02:13:05): I think of Spiro Agnew, another one from the period. DH (02:13:09): Oh, just a wretched crook. SM (02:13:17): George McGovern. DH (02:13:20): Very nice man. SM (02:13:22): Benjamin Spock. DH (02:13:27): He was a good guy. He played an important role. I just saw McGovern, by the way, about three weeks ago, like four weeks, a month ago. SM (02:13:36): Was he at the National Press Club, were you there? DH (02:13:38): No-no. He came up here for the memorial service for Mary Travis, of Peter, Paul and Mary. SM (02:13:45): Really. DH (02:13:46): Yeah, he spoke at it. SM (02:13:49): Oh my gosh. Where was that? DH (02:13:52): The Riverside Church. SM (02:13:53): Oh, geez. DH (02:13:55): Any rate, yeah, so I had not seen him in a decade or so. God, I hope I am in half that shape when I am his age. SM (02:14:08): Yeah, he is pretty sharp. He spoke at the National Press Club, talking about his new book on Lincoln. He did a great job. The women, we have not talked a lot about the women, but your thoughts on Gloria Steinem and Bella Abzug, and Betty Friedan and that particular group, because the women's movement evolved out of the anti-war and civil rights, and there has been a lot of things written about the sexism that took place in the anti-war movement and civil rights movement- DH (02:14:39): Yes. SM (02:14:39): ...the women's movement [inaudible] because of it. DH (02:14:42): Yes. SM (02:14:45): I know I am going overboard here, but you are a great interview and you have a lot of experience. Could you talk a little bit about, because Dr. King would be very sensitive about this today, if he was alive to see it, it was happening. In fact, I had talked to Edythe Bagley, who is the sister of Coretta Scott King, and even she brought it up. I have talked about Martin, but those kind of things. So talk about that particular thing about sexism and also about how important these women leaders were in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. DH (02:15:17): Well, the leaders of the Civil Rights movement were men who took advantage of their position with women. I mean, it was really women staffers in SNCC who were the ones who rebelled against the treatment of women by the Black civil rights leaders. And most of the people in the anti-war movement initially were men also, of the four coordinators of the moratorium, one out of four was a woman, Marge Sklenkar. SM (02:16:15): Is she still alive? DH (02:16:18): No-no. She died a long time ago. But the women were important in that movement. Bella, of course, who was wonderful. She was a good friend. She was a terrific lady. SM (02:16:41): She always wore a hat, that is why I am wearing one. DH (02:16:46): She was terrific. She is a real character. SM (02:16:48): By the way, I can tell you why I am wearing the hat. Ohio State won the Rose Bowl. DH (02:16:54): Indeed. SM (02:16:58): I am an Ohio State graduate, and I had a bet that they were going to lose. DH (02:16:58): Oh. SM (02:17:01): Because they had lost every big- DH (02:17:02): Yes, they had. SM (02:17:03): …for a couple years. And so, I have a bet with Dr. Adell from Westchester University. The bet, since I am no longer at the school, he said, "You have to wear a hat to everything when you leave your house for the next month." So that is why I am wearing it, and I am following through because if he had lost, he was going to have to grow a beard. DH (02:17:31): Okay. SM (02:17:32): I am not going to grow a beard, I had a beard. So that is why I am wearing the hat. DH (02:17:36): Well, you know, other people who were... I mean, Joan Baez was real important in the anti-war movement, as was a woman by the name of Cora Weiss. She was really a mainstay of the mobilization committee. So you know, what Gloria Steinem and... I never met her, or Betty Friedan. I actually did not read Feminine Mystique, so... SM (02:18:17): She had a follow-up, too. DH (02:18:20): Yeah. So I am not familiar with their work, but of course they were pivotal figures in the women's movement. SM (02:18:30): Founded Ms magazine. DH (02:18:31): Mm-hmm. SM (02:18:32): Pretty good. DH (02:18:33): Yeah. So... SM (02:18:37): Lyndon Johnson ... there is three of them here. Lyndon Johnson, Robert McNamara, and Barry Goldwater, all key figures. DH (02:18:50): Johnson was such a tragedy. What a complicated guy. Really. And he did the Civil Rights Act, and he did the War on poverty. And then the Kennedy liberals, the Harvard intellectuals, the best and the brightest talked him into going down the wrong path, which undid the good that he did, domestically. Unfortunately. McNamara, I have very little use for the McNamaras or Bundys of this world. They all were smart enough to have known better. And McNamara... SM (02:20:00): Okay. DH (02:20:06): I do not know when they realized they had made grievous errors and set the nation on just a horrendously wrong course, but they did. And I have read some of the books on the Bundys, but I do not remember. But McNamara clearly was saying different things in public about the war being winnable than he believed, for a couple of years. SM (02:20:45): In fact, when I had my interview with McCarthy, Senator McCarthy, at the time that been out for a while. In Retrospect came out in 1995, and he had read it. And it was not one of my questions, I had [inaudible]. "Bunch of lies." He got real upset. Well, and now that I am thinking about it, the only time he got upset was Kennedy. But he got upset. "Bunch of lies." Tragedy. DH (02:21:13): I did not read it, so... SM (02:21:16): ...say that. DH (02:21:16): But I had no use for it. SM (02:21:19): What about Goldwater? Three years in Conservative building? DH (02:21:29): Well, at least he was against the draft. He was. I mean, he was in favor of an all-volunteer army. He was against conscription. Of course, he also was against the Civil Rights Act. He had more redeeming qualities as a politician than did Ronald Reagan. SM (02:22:02): And yeah, Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter were the next two. I am going to preface when we talk about Reagan, Carter and George HW Bush, it was George HW Bush who said the Vietnam syndrome was over, when he became president in 1989. And it was Ronald Reagan who boldly stated that we were back, basically. The army back in shape, America back in shape, it was kind of like what had happened previously was real-real negative. And then Jimmy Carter, because he was amnesty for the people that had gone to Canada, and of course, he got criticized for that, too. And particularly among Vietnam vets, who [inaudible] heels. Just your thoughts on those three presidents. Personal. Just short thoughts on them. DH (02:22:53): Carter? I mean, obviously I was an enormous fan of Carter's, primarily because of his human rights policy. Which I was executive director of Amnesty in those days, when he became president. And his espousal of human rights was an enormous lift and boost to those of us who were working in organizations. Unfortunately, he did not apply his own principles when it came to Iran, let Kissinger talk him into being nice to the Shah. And we paid dearly for our relationship with the Shah, of course that went back 30 years before Carter came into office. SM (02:23:54): Right. DH (02:23:55): But the US paid a heavy price for our closeness with the Shah. And Carter paid the political price for having listened to Kissinger and given the Shah asylum here. SM (02:24:23): Reagan and President Bush, first President Bush. And the way they talked about... to me, it sounded like a slap against the previous generation, so... DH (02:24:35): I would not care about that. I do not like Reagan because of his Central America policies. I think he made some unnecessary wars. We should not have gotten in bed with the people in El Salvador, and the Sandinistas were not a threat to the United States. And he slightly redeemed himself by... he finally did come around and work on detent with Gorbachev. Somehow Schultz turned out to be a good Secretary of State, who prevailed over that dreadful guy in defense. SM (02:25:39): Not Regan. Regan did not get along with him. DH (02:25:45): Oh... SM (02:25:45): Schlesinger? DH (02:25:45): No-no. SM (02:25:45): No-no-no. James Schlesinger. DH (02:25:49): That was Ford. SM (02:25:51): Melvin Laird? DH (02:25:52): No-no. SM (02:25:52): Yeah, he was- DH (02:25:53): That was Nixon. SM (02:25:54): Yeah. Oh. DH (02:25:57): A guy with a real skinny face. SM (02:26:01): God, I do not know. DH (02:26:03): But any rate, but she will... pardon? SM (02:26:06): Cyrus Vance? DH (02:26:06): No-no-no. Vance is Carter. SM (02:26:07): I am getting them all mixed up here. Yeah. DH (02:26:11): Whoever... the first Bush was not that bad, actually. I mean, I knew Dukakis, and obviously we liked Dukakis. And the Bushes run nasty ... he ran a nasty, nasty campaign. But in fact, once in office, he closed off. He ended the wars in Central America. He just closed it off. So I was glad he closed off the wars there. And he withdrew nuclear weapons, not only from South Korea, but we used to have a lot of nuclear weapons on a lot of bases around the world, and a lot of aircraft carriers. He pulled them back. There were many fewer nuclear missiles on US submarines and aircraft carriers, and stationed in our bases abroad, so that was good. And I agree with his ... I mean, he did some dumb stuff like going after Noriega, but actually, I agreed. I supported the first War on Iraq. I thought that the US national interests and the regional balance of power would be adversely affected should Saddam Hussein be enabled to have kept Kuwait. I think that would have adversely affected the balance of power in the Mideast. And I supported the war to expel Saddam from Kuwait. Unlike some of the friends from the anti-war movement, who opposed the first Iraq war, I supported the first Iraq war. SM (02:28:50): The Uber generation has had two Presidents, George Bush, second George Bush and Bill Clinton. Do not the comment very much detail on them. But the comment I want you to react to is what some people have told me. "They are just typical boomers." DH (02:29:08): I have never thought of- SM (02:29:09): That is what they have in common. They are typical boomers. DH (02:29:14): Is not George Bush... SM (02:29:15): George Bush is... DH (02:29:15): Is not he too late for a boomer? SM (02:29:16): No-no-no. He is the same age. He was born in (19)46, I think. DH (02:29:29): Oh, okay. Oh no, so he is. SM (02:29:30): Yeah. I think Bill Clinton and him are the same age. DH (02:29:31): Oh. SM (02:29:34): I think what they are referring to was some of the qualities, when I mentioned this, some of the qualities that some people have given me of what boomers are, they are positives and negatives, and they will use the negatives for those two. I wonder your thoughts on that? DH (02:29:54): Well, I have yet to find what... well, if there is a redeeming quality to George W. Bush, I have not discovered it. Clinton was the political genius of our generation. He really is a political genius. There is nobody in our generation that had better political instincts, but he squandered it. SM (02:30:26): Right. DH (02:30:26): He totally squandered it. So the only thing you can say about his presidency is that he did not get convicted for impeachment. SM (02:30:51): He survived. DH (02:30:52): But... SM (02:30:54): I am down to my final two. One is a very general question, and the other one is that, are there pictures, when you think of the period when you were young, are there pictures that were in the news that you say, "That is that picture." You know how a picture says 1000 words? These are the pictures that really define the time when I was young. When I talk about young, I am talking about teenager, twenties and thirties, before you turned 40. DH (02:31:26): Sure. SM (02:31:28): What were the pictures that were either in the newspapers, or the magazines that really upset you or that stood out amongst all the pictures during the Vietnam War, and... DH (02:31:38): Well- SM (02:31:38): ...the (19)60s and (19)70s. DH (02:31:40): The Vietnam War would have been that naked girl running down the street. SM (02:31:43): Kim Phuc. Yeah. DH (02:31:49): In Vietnam and the... the Viet Cong guy getting assassinated, shot in the head at Tet. SM (02:31:53): Yeah. DH (02:32:02): The civil rights movement, people getting hosed. Was it Selma? Birmingham. SM (02:32:10): Birmingham. DH (02:32:11): No. Was it... where did people get hosed? SM (02:32:13): Well, near the bridge. They were heading to the bridge, and- DH (02:32:16): Well, that was- SM (02:32:19): That was downtown. No, it was not Birmingham. DH (02:32:22): Either Selma or Birmingham. SM (02:32:24): It had to be Selma, because Birmingham was... King was there, and that was the... DH (02:32:30): But the people getting hosed, getting blown off their feet by hoses, fire hoses. The force of the water. That would have been... that one. SM (02:32:41): There are three pictures from that period who made the top 100 pictures of the 20th century. One of them was Kim Phuc running down ... the other two were Tommy Smith and John Carlos at the (19)68 Olympics. DH (02:32:58): Oh yeah-yeah. SM (02:32:59): Remember that? And they were not Black power. And Tommy Smith has really been upset about it. He was not a Black power person, did not like the Black Panthers at all. It was about discrimination against Black people in America. You have written about this, but we had them on our campus. And the third one was Mary Vecchio over the dead body of Jeff Miller at Kent State. DH (02:33:20): Oh yeah. Yeah. SM (02:33:21): Those were... DH (02:33:21): Yes. Iconic. SM (02:33:24): ...monumental pictures. The other one, and the last question I am going to ask is that if you can go back to those (19)50s, not for the experience that you had down south, but say the experiences when you were in elementary school, and junior high school. The (19)50s, the black and white TV, the television shows that we all watch in that era. Everything seemed so calm and peaceful, even though we had the threat of nuclear war. The Cold War was going on. If you were young enough... I was four years old, but I was a four-year-old, I saw these hearings on television. That man scared me. Senator McCarthy. McCarthy hearings, blaming these people for doing things. Oh boy, he scared me. So I remember McCarthy hearings, I remember... but still, most of the people in the (19)50s that I knew, it was a great time. Your parents gave you everything you wanted. You had Christmases and Easters and everything. And the television shows were Howdy Doody, and Ed Sullivan Show and all the cowboy and Indians. And I was not sensible about what Indians should be, Native Americans. And they were portray bad. And all the sitcoms and all the other things seem to be so calm and peaceful, yet it was that generation who went into the (19)60s and really rebelled. We all know about the generation gap. So in your (19)50s, was that your (19)50s, before you went down South? DH (02:35:07): Oh sure. Oh yeah. Wonderful childhood. It just revolved around family, church and sports. SM (02:35:17): Did your parents ever- DH (02:35:18): -and rock and roll. SM (02:35:19): Did your parents ever bring up anything that was going on? Because I love my parents, but I do not ever remember ever talking about what was going on in the South. DH (02:35:31): Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. No, they would have been like Eisenhower Republicans, but they were politically... well, I would not say they were politically engaged. I mean, they were not active in politics, but they followed it. Huntley Brinkton. And that is when they first started televising the national conventions. So they would have been unsympathetic to the discrimination, and to the mistreatment of... SM (02:36:27): The Black religious people? DH (02:36:30): ...who were... so, they did not have the kind of identification with it that I had, but they thought it was wrong. I mean, they thought discrimination was wrong. SM (02:36:48): I wanted to ask you last, what do you think the lasting legacy will be of the young people, of the boomers, once the best history books are written? And normally the best history books are written 50 years after a period. Sometimes after the generation has passed on, too. DH (02:37:14): Well, I am not sure of much of anything. I mean, I think it sort of... there was a population bulge, and we gave ourselves, and other people gave us a sort of identity, which was... and then within the last five years or so, our parents' generation, the World War II generation, was proclaimed to be the greatest generation. Is that? SM (02:38:06): Mm-hmm. Yep. DH (02:38:09): But other than this bulge, this demographic bulge, I am not sure if 50 years from now... if there is any lasting legacy, it is probably rock and roll. Music. SM (02:38:30): What do you hope your lasting legacy will be? What do you hope it is, when people remember you? DH (02:38:36): Let me think about that. SM (02:38:41): That is okay. You got a lot. If you were before an audience of college students today, and during the question and answer period, somebody stood up and said, "What was it like to be young in the 1960s," as a general question, and why cannot we feel that way today? How would you respond to that? DH (02:39:16): Well, the first thing I would say is it is like being at the center of the universe. You felt that kind of fight ...in one sense connected the world, from Footer Hill, was enormously intense. And I think if they do not feel that way, I think part of their reason is that they did not narrow in their own interest. And you have to go out and get that feeling of vitality. You have to [inaudible], and if you do not invest in anything then you do not have a thing. SM (02:40:15): That is a good point. DH (02:40:17): So start caring about something and acting on it. And at the very least, vitalize your life. SM (02:40:29): I was not as activist as you were, and some of the other people, but being in college at that time and being young, I do not think I have ever lost it. I remember Roy Campanella, the baseball player, he said, "If you ever lose the kid in you, it is over." And certainly when I say the kid, the youth in you, because this seemed to be a feeling that anything was possible, that your voice counted. "I can make a difference in the world." There was all these feelings among a lot of the young people of that period. And we are not only talking about white people, as one of my interviewees said, we are talking about African Americans as well, people of all colors. Because I have interviewed one about Latino boomers, and working with Cesar Chavez. And there was a feeling amongst even Native American youth. I mean, there was a feeling that they could make a difference, that things were really changing. And today's young people, again, either when we had a program on the Generation Xers, they were either sick and tired of hearing boomers talk about when they were young, or they wished that it was like that when they were young. Just your comments- DH (02:41:43): .. know that anything was possible, but that anything was missed. SM (02:41:47): Yeah. Yeah. So I do not sense that amongst today's young people, although they are concentrating so much and getting a job and getting their degree, and getting on with life, and times are very difficult economically. But it is- DH (02:42:06): ...far before the economy collapsed from modern university and become job trained. In the attitude of most students, and most administrators, and a lot of the faculty. SM (02:42:18): Do you feel, and final question, do you feel that the Beat generation had anything to do with influencing the Boomer generation? Alan Ginsburg, and Kerouac, and Burrows and the writings of that period? Because they basically challenged authority. DH (02:42:36): They certainly had enormous impact for me. I mean, part of that, the Bay Area, always go to City Lights Bookstore there. And I remember [inaudible] (19)60s, and of course, [inaudible] Dan and Mary Frank. Kind take off from that starting point. SM (02:43:12): Is there any question that you thought I should have asked, or did not ask that you would like to make a comment on? DH (02:43:21): No, I do not have any questions. I just have answers. SM (02:43:26): Well, David, what an honor to talk to you. I will keep you updated on my project. Do you have a color picture of yourself too? DH (02:43:32): I have a black and white. SM (02:43:37): That will be fine. Because I take pictures of everybody and I am using my photographs at the top of each little section for the oral history project, so I would need a picture of you. DH (02:43:49): I have got the book jacket picture, but I can send it. SM (02:43:54): Okay, very good. And... DH (02:43:56): Send me an email reminding me. SM (02:43:58): Yep, will do. Boy, I would love to interview your former wife. DH (02:44:02): Good luck. She is on the road right now. SM (02:44:04): Yeah. Well, I do not know, but David, thank you very much. And you are still living in the Bay Area, you are lucky. DH (02:44:11): Yeah, well, I live in Marin County. SM (02:44:13): All right. Right across the bridge. DH (02:44:15): Yep. SM (02:44:16): Very-very lucky. Well, you have a great day. DH (02:44:20): Okay. SM (02:44:20): And carry on and continue to be who you are. DH (02:44:23): Well, thank you. Good luck with your project. SM (02:44:25): Thanks, bye now. DH (02:44:25): Okay. SM (02:44:30): What you just heard was the ending of the tape for David Harris, given on the 7th of November, 2009. Excuse me, 6th of November, 2009. Thank you. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with David Hawk Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Hawk, David R. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Amnesty International; Authors, American--20th century; College teachers; Hawk, David R.--Interviews Description An account of the resource David Hawk is a former Executive Director of Amnesty International, USA, UN human rights official in charge of the Cambodia Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, and author. Hawk has been a visiting scholar at the Columbia University Institute for the Study of Human Rights and taught at Hunter College, CUNY. Currently, he teaches in the International Relations Department at the University of South Florida (Tampa). Hawk is a graduate of Cornell University and Union Theological Seminary, and he also did postgraduate work in International Affairs and Strategic Studies at Magdalen College, Oxford. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-01-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.196a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.196b ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.196c Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 164:52 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/251aa38a28237e1d23286755e1aef0e7.jpg 37444710e61ddb5fc3a64ff96bfda99f https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e9c6c0e325fc164151439e56a37dfd7d.mp3 36e5623ab25c98ea26b8aee370c2f6cf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-03-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon) Green, 1941- Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Ernest Green is a consultant, investment executive, and Civil Rights Leader. Green was one of the first black students to integrate at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, following the Supreme Court 1954 ruling to desegregate. Green graduated with a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in Sociology from Michigan State University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Ernest Green is a consultant, investment executive, and Civil Rights Leader. Green was one of the first black students to integrate at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, following the Supreme Court 1954 ruling to desegregate. Green graduated with a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in Sociology from Michigan State University.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"NAACP; Little Rock Nine; Vietnam War; Jimmy Carter; Civil Rights Movement; Baby boom generation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">NAACP; Little Rock Nine; Vietnam War; Jimmy Carter; Civil Rights Movement; Baby boom generation.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 109:21 Subject LCSH Civil rights workers; Consultants; Investment advisors; Central High School (Little Rock, Ark.)--History; School integration--Arkansas--Little Rock--History--20th century; Green, Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon), 1941--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ernest Green Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 3 March 2011 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two- EG (00:00:18): A downtown department store. And it was one of those hot days in Little Rock in the summer. And I went to the water fountain. I went to the water fountain for whites rather than the one for blacks. And I think the one for blacks was in the basement of the building and all of that. And I always thought of the person who admonished me for drinking out of the white water fountain seemed like a giant ogre who came out of the sky, removed me from the water fountain. It was the drinking of the water fountain that my first indication that there was something different between black and white folks. And about... Hang on a minute please. SM (00:01:25): Mm-hmm. EG (00:01:25): So that really was my first indication of being black in the South and during the 1940s and early 1950s. SM (00:01:34): How old were you when that experience happened? EG (00:01:43): I think I was six or seven years old. SM (00:01:43): Wow. When you had that experience, did you go home with your mom and did you have to talk? Did you have a discussion with her about what was going on because you were so young? EG (00:01:53): Well, I think at the time there was probably some attempt to rationalize it, but it did not make sense then or now. And that is one of those things that sticks with you, that there is a feeling of being unfair and that somehow, we had to change it. That is probably what I thought at that point in time, that this was something that did not make sense and a series of adult decisions that I would change if I were in charge. SM (00:02:38): Who were your greatest influences through your high school? This is before you went to Little Rock now for your senior year. Who were your greatest influences through your schooling up to that point? And secondly, give me some background information on your family, your grandparents, parents, brothers and sisters during that time frame. EG (00:02:59): Well, the greatest influences would be my mother, my aunt, my grandfather. My dad passed when I was 13. And my mother and aunt were school teachers. My aunt was the dean of girls at the local high school. My mother taught home economics at the high school. And then she stopped teaching when my brother and I were born, and she went back to teaching after about, I think three years after my brother was three years old as an elementary school teacher in the Little Rock school system. But she and my aunt taught school for over 40 years in the Little Rock system. SM (00:04:02): Did they teach in segregated schools or inte- EG (00:04:04): They taught in segregated schools. And they really were. But my grandfather was a retired letter carrier. They all were my biggest influences in high school, Horace Mann, which was the segregated high school. And there were teachers along the way since black school teachers were a fairly small lot, they all knew each other. And my mother and aunt it turned out were part of a group of teachers that supported a court case. There was a black teacher who challenged the school board on equal pay between white and black teachers. And that was in the 1940s when I was very young. But during that challenge, my mother and a group of the other teachers helped support the teacher who was bringing the court suit because she was fired immediately when she put the court suit forward. Obviously, once she was fired from teaching, she had no way of supporting herself while the case was going through litigation. So they were part of a group of teachers that helped provide for her pay and compensation. And since they did not make much money, I am certain that this was a real struggle to try to make certain that she had coverage. But the other part of that was that the lawyer that handled the case for the NAACP was Thurgood Marshall. And he stayed at our house for a number of times. This was before obviously hotels were open. And I was always amazed that my mother as a school teacher was able or willing to step forward and played this kind of role. Because you would not consider her a revolutionist. But she was one quietly in her own way and was an advocate for change. SM (00:07:06): When Thurgood was down there in the South, was Jack Greenberg with him? Because he traveled with them a lot? EG (00:07:12): I do not think, as far as I know, I do not think Greenberg was traveling with him. SM (00:07:19): Right. EG (00:07:20): But the more I read, the school equity cases were really forerunners for many of the school desegregation. SM (00:07:33): Yes. Wow. What an experience having Thurgood there at your home. In my readings, education was a very important in your family, it is very obvious from the experiences of your being teachers and so forth and the emphasis on education. And obviously they had a strong sense for what was right and wrong in our society, particularly in the South, which all played an important role in your courageous effort to attend Little Rock High School. Was that all a part of it? The reason why you- EG (00:08:10): Well, I mean, it was always my choice. I came home in the spring of (19)57 when the school board announced they were going to accept transfer students from Horace Mann to Central. And I wanted to apply and be considered to transfer. And I did not pay a lot of attention to the selection process of how the school board went through it. I mean, it is still to this day it is somewhat of a mystery to me. Obviously, they paid attention to their grades and I am sure some background and all of that and participation in events in school. But after they did all that, they would not allow us, the black students, to participate in any of the extracurricular activity. I am not sure why they chose people who were involved in the school and then turn around and block all of that. SM (00:09:32): So when you got to Little Rock, you just went to classes basically? EG (00:09:36): Well, as it turned out, that is all you could do. SM (00:09:38): You could not play sports, join the band, the chorus or any of those? EG (00:09:42): The band, the choir, sports you could not do anything. You had to just attend the classes. And I suppose this was their punishment for if you were going to be there, they were going to make it not the world's most pleasant situation. But the other thing, or one other fact about my mother. My mother received her masters from the University of Arkansas. They had a program that they ran on the weekends, a satellite affair in Little Rock. I think this was a response to a requirement to open up the university. And probably the expense side of having people to go all the way up to Fayetteville from Little Rock, which was quite a jaunt. And if they were working as teachers, that would have been quite difficult. But anyway, she received her master's from the University of Arkansas. And I do not know whether indirectly or directly they advised her or not to come up to the campus for the ceremony that they were not inviting she and the other black teachers that participated in this. Anyway- SM (00:11:13): What year was this? EG (00:11:14): This would be 1951. SM (00:11:16): Oh my gosh. EG (00:11:17): And it turned out that when they had sent her-her diploma, she was very upset about it and threw the letter in the trash that indicated that they would prefer her not coming to the campus. Did not invite her. Anyway, long story short, my sister has been following this for the last 60 years. And she wrote the Chancellor at the university this year. And the university is going to do a special commendation of my mother's diploma at graduation this spring. SM (00:12:05): Wow. That is, wow. EG (00:12:06): And we are all going up to participate in it and receive her diploma 60 years later as the member of the class of 1951. SM (00:12:22): Yeah. Just from hearing your voice, you must be so proud of your mom. EG (00:12:26): Oh yeah. SM (00:12:28): Oh my gosh. And you got to be proud of your sister for the persistence in doing this. EG (00:12:34): I am very-very proud of my sister and my mother. This was quite an achievement and the fact that she stayed with it for all this time. And then secondly, recognition. And I am sure this will be while they will be recognizing my mother, it will be recognizing a whole series of other teachers and graduate students who did not get there too. SM (00:13:02): You know what, Ernie, this will be an interesting parallel here. It would be nice if President Obama would come, just come unannounced just like Dr. King came unannounced to your graduation and just with no fanfare, just sat with a family. Would not that be nice? EG (00:13:20): Well, we- SM (00:13:23): I know it was a little more with the President, but still, I mean. EG (00:13:24): That would be a great touch. But he travels with a few people. SM (00:13:38): I know. That would shock them. I am going to get the into that, but could you explain a little bit more about the schooling prior to Little Rock? Because I know you were in what, Horace Mann school and then you were in another school for a while. EG (00:13:50): Well, there were two schools. Paul Lawrence Dunbar High School was the black High School in Little Rock for a very long time. And then right after the (19)54 decision, the Little Rock School Board built a new high school, Horace Mann. I say tongue in cheek, but it is probably true that there were more new schools built for black people in the South after the Brown decision than at any point in time in the history of this country. And all of it was done to try to thwart, I am sure black interest in going to the formally all white schools. But Horace Mann and Dunbar were regarded as premier high schools. And in many ways, I always said it was the quality of the teachers that these two institutions had. And coming out of a family of teachers, you had an opportunity to recognize exceptional teachers. In fact, now there is this one course that I took my 11th year at Horace Mann. It was Negro History at that time. And it was Carter G. Wilson's book that we studied. And the teacher who taught the course, I always said that Little Rock School Board had no idea what this woman was teaching us. But we studied slave insurrections and the protest movement, the beginning of the NAACP and all of a series of things that taught me that the black community was challenging this old system a long time. It was not something that was being accepted. And it may have helped reinforce in my mind that challenging the court decision was an important piece. SM (00:16:28): Yeah. Learning about probably Walter White- EG (00:16:31): And Roy Wilson. SM (00:16:33): ...learning about W.B. Royce and- EG (00:16:33): Right. SM (00:16:35): ...and Marcus Garvey and a lot of different people. EG (00:16:38): Yeah. We had quite an array of individuals that we spent time having to know about. SM (00:16:52): Three events that made national news before you went to Little Rock in (19)57 really were major events in the nation at this particular time. I have interviewed some people up from the media and the media portrays things when they were popular. When they are not, they kind of hide them. But certainly the Brown versus Board of Education decision of (19)54, the Montgomery Bus Boycott of (19)57, and then of course the Emmett Till murder, I believe that was (19)56. Those three events were major. Did they have an influence on you? EG (00:17:27): Absolutely [inaudible]. SM (00:17:30): All three of them in terms of wanting to go to Little Rock? EG (00:17:34): Well, the Brown decision, I was 12, 13 when that was handed down and as I am junior high school. I paid attention to it because the local newspaper had huge, bold headlines that I had never seen any that big. And they said that this was going to change the Old South. And I thought, well, the Old South was not for me. And I was ready for a change. And if this was one of the things that was going to change it, I am in favor of the decision. And then the Till murder, I was impacted by the picture that appeared in Jet Magazine of the disfigured body. And then just the recounting of how he had been treated and mangled and thrown in the river with the weights and all of that. And then the Montgomery Bus Boycott, I was a bit older and I was just really impressed by the fact that these individuals in Montgomery could take on the whole structure with an alternative transportation system. I knew who Rosa Parks was and I was beginning to pay attention to Dr. King. But the main thing about the Montgomery Bus Boycott that struck me was that ordinary citizens in Montgomery had decided to band together to create this alternative transportation as long as it was segregated. And I just connected with that because the rule in Little Rock was that if the bus became crowded and black people had to get up and move further to the back to give up their seat to someone white. And I just, that did not make sense then. It does not make sense now for me. And I thought that the Montgomery response was what we needed to have happen throughout the entire South. SM (00:20:06): What is interesting is when you look at the history of the church in Montgomery, where Dr. King took over after Pastor Johns left. When Pastor Johns was kind of pressured to leave because they thought he was kind of a rabble rouser. And then Dr. King comes in and within a short period of time, he is thrust into activism as well. You probably remember the scene in the movie where Dr. King finally, there is a movie made of this where Dr. King finally makes some comments in the church and the eyes were rolling around, "Oh, no. Not again." EG (00:20:40): No. Well, maybe part of that was knowing the level of conservatism by some people in Little Rock if that were to happen. That they would be quite upset or felt that you were rocking the boat and that this was a challenge that they did not need. SM (00:21:09): I know the NAACP was responsible for picking the nine students for Little Rock. And I know you are still, you mentioned earlier that there is still a question of understanding how this came about. But from my readings, is that your grades were excellent and that was definitely a criteria. And also the fact that school attendance was very important. Those were two criteria that were used in picking the nine students. The question I am asking is how did the NAACP approach your parents on this? EG (00:21:43): Well, I think it is a slight misnomer. There were more than nine that had been approved by the school board. And many of the others decided not to go forward. The number's somewhere around 20, 25 students that were picked. And that the thing that binds the nine of us together is that we all had somebody in our families who supported our desire to go to Central High School. I think most of us saw it as an opportunity to get the best high school education that the city had to offer. That there were more courses, more range of science labs and other things that we did not have at Horace Mann and Dunbar. And for that reason, in the initial students that they had, what the first court suit suing the Little Rock School Board, none of them got picked to participate. We were, I do not know the word self-appointed, but all of us decided individually that we wanted to transfer, wanted to transfer for as I said, a better educational format. And the other portion of that that I think made us all somewhat different was that we each had parent of parents or some adult who thought that the decision we were making was the right decision. SM (00:23:44): Yeah. The person you worked with there I believe was Daisy Bates. EG (00:23:47): Was Daisy Bates, absolutely. SM (00:23:48): Yeah. And I have read her biography quite a few years ago. I have a first edition of her biography, which is actually- EG (00:23:54): She was quite a lady. And she and her husband owned the black weekly newspaper, the Arkansas State Press. SM (00:24:03): What became of it? EG (00:24:04): Not only was she president of NAACP, but she was also publisher and editor of this weekly paper. And it was really the frontal engine that kept up with all of the changes going on in terms of race and race relations. SM (00:24:30): I know her life was threatened many times. Did you know any of the other eight before they came to Little Rock? Did you know them? EG (00:24:39): Yeah. Well we, let us see. Two of the eight, we went to the same church. Jefferson Thomas lived a half a block from me. I knew Terrence Robert's sister. Yeah, Little Rock was still small enough that, except for me, the students that were going into the 10th grade, I really did not know them because they were in high school. SM (00:25:12): Yes. EG (00:25:14): Two grades is a world of difference. But we either knew the family, knew a brother or sister, had some relationship so that most of the nine I knew of or knew somebody in that family. SM (00:25:32): Well, your career is well known to the nation, and I think Melba has written about her background too. But the other seven, what became of these other individuals? What became of Elizabeth Eckford? EG (00:25:44): Well, Elizabeth is living in Little Rock now. She is retired and we were all together just a few weeks ago in Little Rock. Jefferson Thomas, as you may not know, died this past fall. He had been quite ill. Terrence Roberts is a psychology professor. He has written a book. He is retired and doing lecturing. Carlota Walls Lanier has also written a book and she is doing lecturing and she who is in real estate out in Colorado. Minijean Brown-Trickey, is living back in Little Rock, also educator and doing some lecturing. Thelma Mothershed-Wair is in Little Rock and retired teacher. I think I have covered. Gloria Karlmark, Gloria Ray Karlmark is living in Sweden. SM (00:27:06): Wow. EG (00:27:06): And she has been living over there for 40 years or better. She has family there and she gets back occasionally. She was with us a couple weekends ago down in Little Rock for a special recognition on the part of the Benton Library. SM (00:27:30): And how about Melba? EG (00:27:32): Melba is a college professor in the bay area in California somewhere near San Francisco. And as you said, has written a book and is doing well. SM (00:27:51): During all these years, you have stayed in touch with each other over times? Even when you went off to Michigan State as an undergraduate student, did you often hear from these- SM (00:28:03): ...State as an undergraduate student, did you often hear from these younger ones what they were still going through in Arkansas? EG (00:28:08): We stayed in touch. We have been more in touch in the last 20 years than we were in the beginning because we were all developing our careers, going to college, building families, all of that. But in the last 20 to 30 years, we have had these 10th year anniversaries. We have had creation of this foundation that we have, and we have made an attempt, and with the internet, it is easier to stay in touch as some years ago so we have fairly well-connected. SM (00:28:56): Oh, yes. All of you knew the dangers and the potential threats, the possible harm. What were you and your family thinking leading up to the first day of school? EG (00:29:07): Well, leading up to the first day of school, I thought that it would be relatively quiet. I mean, until the governor said he was calling out the National Guard, we thought that the desegregation would be reasonably accepted. The reason for that is that Little Rock saw itself as a moderate city. They were very early in the aftermath of the (19)54 decision. The buses had desegregated quietly. The library had accepted Blacks. The med school, the law school had all had a few Black students. So we anticipated that things were going to be fairly quiet. SM (00:30:02): What is interesting is when you look at the South at that time, the Democratic Party was in charge of the south. EG (00:30:09): I remember it was. SM (00:30:10): A lot of things that President Kennedy did early on, even when he was running for president and then when he became president, he was a very pragmatic politician. He did not want to lose the votes in the South, so a lot of the issues linked to President Kennedy and his real interest in helping in the civil rights area is in question because he was a pragmatic politician. The question is whether a lot of the things he did was for moral reasons or political reasons. Do you have any thoughts on that? EG (00:30:41): Well, I remember fairly vividly that when I was in college, we always had lots of discussions about where the Kennedys were in terms of civil rights. I think whether it was his heart or the pragmatism of day-to-day politics, I was more interested in the outcome. I believe he was a reluctant participant, but the same could be said about Eisenhower. SM (00:31:18): Yes. EG (00:31:19): He was also a reluctant participant, but unintended consequences that I think also gave a real shot of energy to the civil rights movement was his sending the troops to Little Rock. SM (00:31:32): Yes. September 24th. EG (00:31:34): And that made a real big difference. I think for the first time the African American community saw that the government was willing to stand up for what was right. To me, that was a big boost in many of these communities to push the agenda forward. SM (00:31:57): I think originally, we were supposed to start school around September 4th. EG (00:32:00): Yeah. SM (00:32:02): Yeah. And then I think you started it really on September 25th. What was going on in that two weeks? Were you still studying? EG (00:32:09): We were studying. We had tutors. We had support. We had interviews, had press and all of that. But the main thing I was interested in keeping up with my classwork because I was the graduating senior of the group, and I wanted to make sure I could graduate that year. SM (00:32:34): These next few questions are centered on your experience during that year. Could you describe that year using different anecdotes and stories about everyday life for you and your eight peers? EG (00:32:48): Well, you could divide it into two categories. When the troops were there, our life was fairly quiet and minimal problems. There may have been some words passed. But when the troops were pulled out of the school, that is when the level of harassment began to rise. We had physical altercations. Really, it was, I said, akin to go into the battle every day. SM (00:33:27): Wow. How long were the troops there to protect all nine of you? EG (00:33:34): Well, they were inside the classes until right around Thanksgiving they were removed from inside the classes. So we had pretty much until November that we were able to be on our own. SM (00:34:06): How did the principal and the teachers treat you, particularly the white teachers? EG (00:34:19): Well, most of the teachers were probably somewhere in a neutral zone trying not to be seen as partisan on either side. Then there were a few who were very supportive and wanted to make certain that we had a positive experience. Then there were a few who were openly hostile to our being there and were not shy about letting us know it. SM (00:34:54): Yeah. I read someplace that if any of the nine ever did something wrong, you were severely punished. And if whites did things that were pretty bad, nothing would happen to them, or at least they had to have a witness to their- EG (00:35:17): That was an imposition of a rule that the school authorities imposed on us. But I think one was the nine of us figured out how, as well as we could, to survive that year and be protective of each other. So we are a pretty tightly-knit group of people. More importantly, that you tried as best you could to ignore what you could and what you could not, you had to deal with it. So I mean, it was clear that there were more pleasant ways to go to school than what we went through. But for me, for myself, I felt that the satisfaction of leaving there was going to be too great for me to give in, and that if I wanted to punish my tormentors, my best deal was to stick it out and graduate from Central High School. SM (00:36:31): Right. Because sometimes it is a lesson of life, if you let people know that you are real upset, you are letting them win. EG (00:36:40): That we learned early. SM (00:36:44): Also, I am not sure if Daisy tried to do anything with respect to the fact when she found out that you were not allowed to be involved in any activities of any kind. I am a student development person, and I believe that all students should be able to have life not only in the class, but in outside activities. Was there ever any thoughts on the part of the NAACP locally via Daisy Bates to challenge you are not being- EG (00:37:11): Well, they challenged that in the beginning, but that was a rule that the school board handed down. I assumed at the time the attitude was, if you do not want this, then we are not going to accept you at as part of the transfer of students. SM (00:37:29): Did you make any friends with the white students, and was there pressure on white students that if they became friends with you, that sure they would be pressured? EG (00:37:38): Big pressure on them that if they befriended us, that they were going to be ostracized. SM (00:37:49): Geez. EG (00:37:49): Called nigger lovers. In some cases, their parents' businesses were threatened and all of that. So yeah, I mean, it was a reign of terror that got handed down by the segregationists to try to enforce an attitude of isolation towards us. SM (00:38:14): See, I think it is important, a lot of our today's students, both Black and white, do not know our history and assume that the battles that went took place in the (19)40s, (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, that is old history, it does not apply to today. Yet my commentary here is that teenagers have all kinds of pressures in their lives, most try to fit in. But even today, we know that bullying is one of the major issues that is affecting a lot of students in schools because for some reason, because children are children, look at people who are different and they treat them differently. Yet in Little Rock, you had the added dimension of extreme dislike based on race, and you still had all the other things that teenagers were going through. EG (00:39:01): Right. Well, I think you are absolutely right. Anyways, all these peer pressures and attempts to keep students from recognizing their full potential, it is an area that we have to continue to fight against. SM (00:39:27): I read also in this story when graduation was near, it is my understanding of the principal offered to send you your degree in the mail, too. EG (00:39:40): Yeah. Well, that was a non-starter. SM (00:39:42): Yeah. Explain that. How he approached you. EG (00:39:44): Well, his approach was that I would be happier without having to go through. SM (00:39:55): I am losing you. EG (00:39:56): Oh. That I would be happier without having to go through the ceremony and that they would mail me my diploma. I just said that was out of the question. I planned to be there for the ceremony and regarded that as an important part of receiving my diploma, so I quickly dismissed that. SM (00:40:24): What was it like being at the graduation? I saw a picture on the web of you standing outside, and how some of the other students are out there too, just before your graduation, and- EG (00:40:37): Well, for me, it was a great feeling of accomplishment that year that I had not only endured that, but been able to navigate it and that I was getting on with my life to the next step, going on to college. I felt that receiving that diploma I had accomplished something for myself and for other Black youngsters in Little Rock that would come behind me. SM (00:41:18): When you went up and the principal handed you your degree, obviously your parents and your supporters were very pleased and clapping, but were there any cat calls? Were there any negative thoughts? EG (00:41:31): If there were cat calls, I clearly blocked them out and it did not resonate with me. But my memory was, it was pretty eerie silence except for my immediate family. I felt I did not need a large audience to tell me what I had accomplished, and that I was pretty pleased with myself and felt that this was the first step in moving my life along. SM (00:42:09): How many were in your graduating class? EG (00:42:12): There was 600-plus graduating. SM (00:42:12): That is a big school. EG (00:42:13): Yeah. It was a big class. There were a couple of thousand students at Central. SM (00:42:21): You mentioned earlier, was there a feeling during the year by you and your peers that you must succeed in the classroom because other young African- Americans were looking to you as role models? EG (00:42:33): I think of the nine, there were much stronger students than myself, but education was such a big chunk for each of us, and we were competitive people, so we were going to be achievers in that just because we saw a school as a place where you tried to do as well as you could. And that was our history, whether we were at the Black school or the white school. SM (00:43:06): Governor Faubus, every time I have seen him on YouTube, he bugs me. I just do not like him. I never liked him. But just the way he talks, the way he looks, everything. What did that man, what did he symbolize to you? EG (00:43:26): Well, he symbolized the old segregationists, and that was what we were changing and driving out. I mean, I did not meet Faubus until later in life, but during that year, I did not have any contact with him. SM (00:43:48): Did he ever change? EG (00:43:48): Well, he said he did. Yeah. He and Wallace, and a number of the segregationists said they changed. I mean, Faubus came from a very progressive background back. In fact, my mother voted for Faubus when he first ran for governor. He really decided that he was going to play his race card to ensure that he would get reelected I guess. SM (00:44:20): When Wallace stood before the schoolhouse door, James Meredith was going in the back way. I mean, it seems so fake because you do things for moral reasons, not for political reasons, and it looks like even Wallace did it for publicity. EG (00:44:39): Well, these guys were all politicians extraordinaire. SM (00:44:43): Dr. King came to your graduation. What an honor. He sat with your parents. Did you know that he was coming or did he just come unannounced? EG (00:44:54): Well, I did not know he was coming. He had been speaking at a college about 45 miles from Little Rock, and he was close. He was in touch with Mrs. Bates. I did not know he was sitting with my family until the end of the ceremony. But it is quite an honor as something that obviously looking back on it, really makes a great exclamation point for my graduation. SM (00:45:36): Here you are 18 years old, and you are meeting Dr. King? EG (00:45:39): I am 16. SM (00:45:40): Oh, you were 16. Well, you graduated very young, but you- EG (00:45:48): I turned 17 in September. SM (00:45:49): Wow. What did Dr. King say to you and you to him? Did you have a chance to talk? EG (00:45:57): I, Steven, have to point out that I was 16, graduating from high school. After we said the pleasantries and said hello to each other, then thank you for coming out, I was more focused on going to my graduation party than recognizing the historic moment of King speaking at my graduation. SM (00:46:25): Right. I was wondering what the people that were in that audience must have known it was Dr. King. EG (00:46:32): This was early on in Dr. King's career, and that could have been a large number of people who did not know who he was. That was just another Black male there that. It is impossible to think that Martin Luther King could have been anywhere without the world knowing who he was, but this was really before his real ascendancy and into super fame that we know now. SM (00:47:10): It is interesting you say that because I interviewed Julius Lester earlier in the week, and Julius was talking about Malcolm X, and he said Malcolm X was not a very well-known person during his life, but after his death- EG (00:47:24): In fact, I went to school with Malcolm's brother. He was in college with me, Bob Little, because Malcolm spent part of his time at Lansing, Michigan before he came to New York. We were part of a generation of people that all the luminaries now and all the stardom, they were just ordinary people and did not have the fame and attention that they have now. SM (00:48:00): You went off to Michigan State University, which everybody knows is Magic Johnson's University. But the Magic came much later, but- EG (00:48:11): He came after I did. SM (00:48:13): And Michigan had a great football team too, during Bubba Smith. And I know- EG (00:48:18): Bubba was... I was there during the Herb Adderley era. SM (00:48:23): Oh, the great football players coming out of there. Hall of Famers. EG (00:48:27): Right. SM (00:48:27): I think Carl Banks came out of there too. But you went to Michigan State University and received both of your Bachelor's and Master's in (19)62 and (19)64? EG (00:48:35): Yes. SM (00:48:37): Why did you pick a Big 10 school? EG (00:48:40): Well, I got a scholarship to Michigan State, and I suspect that a big part of the reason I got the scholarship hopefully, was because I was an outstanding student, but also the president of Michigan State John Hannah was chairman of Eisenhower's Civil Rights Commission. I believe that had something else to do with it as well. So I mean, it was a great fit for me. It has been a tremendous experience. I have maintained great friendships from that Michigan State experience, and I am a proud Spartan. I bleed green and white. SM (00:49:27): Well, I am a Buckeye, so we are adversaries there, Ernie. But in sports, they had great football teams. They had some great basketball teams too. But at this stage in your life, as you are heading off and getting your degree, did you know when you went to Michigan State what you wanted to become? EG (00:49:50): No, I was interested in exploring a wide range of opportunities. Well, I thought I was going to maybe become a lawyer. I looked at pre-law as an area, but when I got to State, School of Labor Industrial Relations was something that I paid attention to. I had a series of summer jobs in New York with a number of labor unions. The Ladies Garment Workers Union, and every summer I came back and forth. I ended up working in New York for the summer. So it was the widening of those experiences at Michigan State that really allowed me to figure out some new things. SM (00:50:49): You had a lot more freedom there too, because could not get involved in student life at Little Rock but at Michigan State, you can get involved in everything. What was student life like during those six years? EG (00:51:03): Well, I was an active student. I was involved in student government. I chaired the campus NAACP for a couple years, the political organization, the Young Dems. So I was pretty active. SM (00:51:19): You were in a fraternity too, were not you? EG (00:51:20): I was Omega Psi Phi. SM (00:51:23): Oh yeah. We got that at Westchester. EG (00:51:25): Charter member of the fraternity. SM (00:51:29): See if we had known that when you came to Westchester University, we have a process now that anybody who was involved in an African American fraternity is honored. EG (00:51:41): Ah, all right. Well- SM (00:51:42): And we should have done that when you were here. EG (00:51:47): Well, no, in fact, I am going back this fall for the 50th anniversary of the founding of the fraternity. SM (00:51:55): Oh my gosh. Where was it founded? EG (00:52:01): Well, I mean, the chapter that we had at Michigan State is 50 years. The fraternity itself is 100 years this year. It was founded at Howard University. SM (00:52:12): Okay, very good. Were there protests going on during the time you were there? Because you are talking about... I guess the protest really started later on, but that Freedom Summer was happening and yeah. EG (00:52:27): Yeah. I mean, my opinion as head of the NAA, we were protesting lunch counters at Kresges and Woolworths and sit in, and then of course a little bit later the Vietnam War. SM (00:52:47): Hmm. EG (00:52:48): Yeah. SM (00:52:49): Did you bring anybody to the university to speak, or what speakers came to your school when you were there? EG (00:52:55): Well, one of the speakers that we brought was Malcolm X. SM (00:52:59): Oh, wow. EG (00:53:00): I was president of the NAACP and the African Students Union, we co-sponsored Malcolm speaking to the university. SM (00:53:16): What was the turnout? Pretty big? EG (00:53:18): It was huge. It was overflow. SM (00:53:21): And what did the president of the university think when he was coming? EG (00:53:25): Well, freedom of speech. He may have thought that it was not something he wanted, but he certainly allowed it to occur. SM (00:53:39): Yeah. Was he talking about by any means necessary at that time? EG (00:53:44): Yes, of course. Yeah. SM (00:53:44): And challenging Dr. King, and admired Rustin and the whole thinking of nonviolence. EG (00:53:52): No, he was challenging nonviolence and the Civil Rights Movement and a whole series of things. SM (00:53:58): Wow. Any other speakers? EG (00:54:07): I cannot think of any other national speakers that we had. SM (00:54:15): What did you learn from your college years that you did not know from your experience at Little Rock? EG (00:54:22): Well, I think the one major thing was the set of relationships and how they have been helpful to me throughout my life, and many of them people that you would not ordinarily have struck up a friendship or a relationship with. I learned from my Michigan State experience to try and be as broad as you could in getting to know people. SM (00:54:56): How many African American students were at Michigan State at that time? EG (00:55:00): I think between graduate and undergraduate, probably about 300, 350. SM (00:55:05): And that is a campus of over 30,000, I think. EG (00:55:09): Yeah. SM (00:55:11): 38 I think it is right now or 40, somewhere around there. Was it a bike campus when you were there? EG (00:55:17): To a certain degree. I mean, the weather was so cold. I think bikes were probably one way of getting around. This was before buses and all, because the period of time that I went, they were just trying to figure out how to become student friendly. Most Big 10 campuses had to work at that pretty hard. SM (00:55:47): Yeah. I know now that they call the biggest bike campus in America, they have more bikes there than any other college campus. My only experience with Michigan State was when I went there in the summer of (19)71 to visit a friend of one of my... SM (00:56:03): ... the summer of (19)71 to visit a friend of a friend of one of my graduate school friends from Ohio State, and we were stopped at the entrance because they thought we were coming to create protest. They were very suspicious of us because we had out-of-state license plates. That was back in (19)71. EG (00:56:16): Well, they probably had a jaundiced eye about outsiders. Yeah. SM (00:56:25): Yeah. Now we are getting into your work life. I know that from (19)68 to (19)77 you worked for the A Philip Randolph Fund. What did the work entail, and was this the time that you really got to know A Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin? EG (00:56:42): This was. This was the time of the apprenticeship program that I was the director of and had an opportunity to work with Bayard and to work with Mr. Randolph. SM (00:57:06): Now... EG (00:57:06): Well, this was also the effort on the part of the Randolph Institute to [inaudible] young African Americans into the Building Trades apprenticeship program. SM (00:57:21): And for a pretty young person, you were given some heavy responsibility then? EG (00:57:26): Yes. Well, and Bayard and Mr. Randolph encouraged that. They were big supporters of making certain that we had an opportunity to show our talent, show what we could do. SM (00:57:45): What is interesting is you remember this, Ernie, from the conference we had 10, going on 11 years ago now, I cannot believe. But one of the things that came out of it is the influence that Bayard Rustin had on so many young people in terms of being a role model, a mentor, and a believer. And I can remember someone at the conference saying that they once sat down, and they could come up with about 2,500 names of people that had been influenced by Bayard Rustin. He somehow really attracted people, did not he, with his ability to delegate and have faith in young people. EG (00:58:23): Yeah. No question about it. He was superb at that. SM (00:58:28): What was the relationship between Bayard Rustin and A Philip Randolph? Because I have always perceived that he kind of looked at his Randolph as a father figure almost. EG (00:58:36): Well, it was, that Mr. Randolph was someone that Bayard was... I am not aware of the full relationship, but that he admired Mr. Randolph immensely, and not only a father figure but probably closer to deity as you could get. SM (00:59:05): When you look at these two figures that I think need... Obviously, in Westchester now, there is greater recognition because the high school... I remember I kept you up to date on that. EG (00:59:15): Right. SM (00:59:16): And they got to make sure here... We got to always watch the school board here because there is always the possibility they may try to change it again. You cannot trust anybody here. But when you look at A Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin, what were the qualities that they possessed? These are things that I look at in leadership of, intelligence. EG (00:59:35): Well, I think the major quality was that these really are individuals who could see the future, and whether it was the protest activity, the Freedom Rides that Bayard did in the (19)40s, the first proposed March on Washington that Randolph had, going back to World War II. SM (01:00:00): (19)41, yep. EG (01:00:00): Yeah. The other marches and protests that they had before the (19)63 march. These are people who really could have a vision of who we are in a few years. SM (01:00:18): Could you hold that right there? I have to switch my tape here. Hold on one second. How is the weather down there? EG (01:00:25): ... problem. I am going to have to- SM (01:00:25): I guess we will- EG (01:00:25): I am going to have to leave in about five minutes. SM (01:00:32): Oh really? I got 30 more minutes, here. Oh, boy. EG (01:00:35): Can we call back? Can I call you- SM (01:00:38): Yes. EG (01:00:39): ... later on tonight or tomorrow? SM (01:00:41): Yep, sure thing. Yep. We can do it later tonight. I will get up a couple more questions in here, then we can finish it tonight. EG (01:00:47): Okay. Why do not we do that? And I can reach you on the (610) 436... SM (01:00:51): 9364. EG (01:00:53): 93, okay. SM (01:00:57): Do you want to stop now or just... EG (01:00:58): Yeah. I think this would be a good time for me to break, and then I will call you back. We will finish up this evening. SM (01:01:06): What time do you want to call? 8:00? EG (01:01:13): How is 8:30? SM (01:01:13): 8:30s fine. EG (01:01:15): Okay. SM (01:01:16): Thanks. EG (01:01:17): I will call you at 8:30. SM (01:01:17): Yep. Thanks, Ernie. Bye. EG (01:01:18): Thanks, bye. SM (01:01:22): Thanks for calling me back. The last question we were talking about was your impressions of A Philip Randolph and Bayard Rustin. The March on Washington in 1963 took place when you were at Michigan State. Did you go to that event? EG (01:01:40): I did, and I drove all night, drove from Lansing to Washington. And we arrived the morning of the march, and I was with two other people. I was just out there among the 200,000 people participating in it. But I was at the march. SM (01:02:09): How close were you? Were you down by the... near the line? EG (01:02:15): I was by the Reflecting Pool, pretty far away from the... SM (01:02:18): Steps. EG (01:02:19): Yeah, the Abraham Lincoln Memorial, but yeah, close enough to be in the middle of... to have said that I was there. SM (01:02:36): That was such a historic event. During those years when you worked for Mr. Rustin and Mr. Randolph, did they often talk about that march because you were... EG (01:02:48): Well, Bayard did not spend a lot of time talking about it. I mean obviously, people around him... I had a chance to work with Rachelle Horowitz who was with the Workers Defense League and was one of the early people that was with Bayard, was staffing the Bayard tent. I always thought the miracle of the march, besides, of course, the leadership that Bayard and Mr. Randolph furnished was this was a whole period before cell phones and computers, and mobilize and move all of that humanity, pretty much on three-by-five cards, was an achievement that is unparalleled. SM (01:03:46): Yeah. I remember at the conference, and you may remember this too, I do not know who said it, but Mr. Rustin went out there very early in the morning, and there was not a soul there, and he was very worried. EG (01:04:03): Yeah, yeah. No. I mean, the buses, and people came by car and train, and they just all sort of appeared, just out of the ground, out of the sky. They all showed up. SM (01:04:16): I know there was an excellent YouTube that I listened to about a week ago that had Mr. Mankiewicz and James Baldwin and Marlon Brando and Harry Belafonte and Sidney Poitier and Charlton Heston. And they were talking- EG (01:04:35): Yeah. I mean, they had enough star power and all that. I mean, they were just participants. And while they were huge names, it was the 200,000 people who believed enough that this was the time to show witness, and they all came. SM (01:05:00): And you worked for Jimmy Carter too. You were appointed to the position of assistant secretary of housing and urban affairs. EG (01:05:08): No, I was assistant secretary of labor. SM (01:05:09): Oh, assistant secretary of labor. EG (01:05:11): Yeah. Oh. That is misinformation on the web. Yeah. No, the Google has the wrong info. No, I was the assistant secretary of labor and had responsibility for the Employment and Training program. SM (01:05:29): What did you think of Jimmy Carter? EG (01:05:31): Oh, I admired him. I thought Carter was... I thought he was an outstanding president, that as time goes on, I think, he will be understood more. And Carter really had as difficult at task as President Obama has. I mean, he was coming out of an economic doldrum and the oil shock and all. He got blamed for a lot of it. SM (01:06:06): Do you think it was a mistake to give the Malaise Speech? EG (01:06:14): Probably, because that was more than blaming the malaise on the time and the period. I have said many times that President Carter was probably better after he left the office than when he was having to deal with all the competing interests. SM (01:06:42): Yeah. He has been probably our best ex-president in terms of what he has done with his life. EG (01:06:47): Right. Yeah, absolutely. SM (01:06:49): The Carter Center, and he goes all over the world. At least he is away two weeks a year in some part of the world. He is always active. EG (01:06:58): No. He has been an outstanding, and he has had an intellectual grasp of all the things that are wrong with... or how things can be improved. I would not say things are wrong. SM (01:07:13): The one commentary, before I go to the next question, the criticism of President Carter is that he was so intelligent and so smart that he had to have his hands in everything, and he had a hard time delegating. EG (01:07:25): Yeah. He was not Lyndon Johnson in terms of how to figure out dealing with all the... especially the legislature, the House and the Senate. SM (01:07:41): You were an Eagle Scout, and I have a friend who was an Eagle Scout, Mike Arliss, and I know how difficult that is to even become one. And scouting has been a very important part of your life. How did you ever get started in that, and how did it impact your career? EG (01:08:01): Well, I got started in scouting because my best friend's grandfather was a scoutmaster, and it was, of course, some activity to be involved. And from that, I had received my Eagle Scout badge the year before I went to Central. When I was in the 11th grade, my friend and I, Waldo Brunson, were two of the youngest Eagle Scouts ever to receive the Eagle Scout Award. And many years later I went back to Little Rock. This was after college and all. And in (19)94, I think it was, they made me a Distinguished Eagle Scout. And I found scouting to give me a lot of leadership skills, and I benefited from that, I think, before I went to Central. SM (01:09:22): Was not there also that feeling that when you are a Boy Scout or even a Cub Scout, it is a feeling of camaraderie, fellowship, and also a lot of freedom. EG (01:09:32): Well, but also feeling of accomplishment. I mean, you have tasks. You have goals that you have to set, and it is a good preparation for future activity. SM (01:09:48): You have three kids, and I know one is an unbelievable historian, Adam. EG (01:09:54): Right. SM (01:09:55): What do your other kids do with their profession? And I guess the second part of my question is how did you teach them, when they were very young, about what you went through as a teenager in the South of the (19)50s? Because they grew up in another era, and here you are a parent talking to your children. EG (01:10:15): Well, my two daughters... Jessica lives in New York, and she is involved with a documentary film organization and has been able to make a career out of that. And then my youngest is a recent graduate of University of Miami, and she is soon to be a media... I think she is going to be my media mogul. She is both a... She studied communications at Miami and also minored in sports management. She has got a real ear and eye for the sports world. There was a double major between the media activity and the sports management. And the youngest, of course, is further away from any of the imagery of the (19)50s. But she is very savvy and so is Jessica in terms of the history. And they have seen from it that my difficulties were laying groundwork for them. And they see the past, the benefits from what we tried to do. And both McKenzie and Jessica have participated in a number of the events, and the anniversary affairs. They have been to Little Rock a number of times. They have [inaudible], and McKenzie particularly in those, the Jesse Jacksons of the world and others who played a role in the movement. In fact, McKenzie went to school with Andy Young's granddaughter. SM (01:12:29): Oh wow. EG (01:12:29): So it is a- SM (01:12:29): A small world. EG (01:12:31): It is a tiny world. And they recognize the benefits that they accrued from it. And I am always very pleased with their ability to recognize that and to want to contribute something during their generation. SM (01:12:55): Adam is an unbelievable historian, and I saw, of course, on Brother Outsider, but I had a chance to interview him last year. And then I know how much he has held in respect by all those people that were at that conference too. Did your experiences play a role in Adam becoming a historian? Because he has- EG (01:13:18): From me, he- SM (01:13:19): ...a tremendous knowledge of the whole Civil Rights era and all of American history. He is... EG (01:13:24): Yeah. Well, Adam comes out of a family of teachers on both sides, his mother's side and on my side of the family. So he caught the teaching bug early and wanted to continue to play a role. So I am proud of that spirit, that desire to pass on to the future generations, the information. He has done a great job with that. SM (01:14:05): You know what is amazing is... I am a history person. That was my undergraduate, and then my love of history. And for him to be at the University of Chicago right now, after going from the other school, I mean, I consider him one distinguished historian. And the interview I had with him was just outstanding. And his knowledge and his depth of understanding history in the connections that he can make between this event and that event is just... Well, they are very lucky to have him there. EG (01:14:35): Well, I think so too. Absolutely. SM (01:14:39): Now, the next question I have is when you look at the Civil Rights leaders that were very well known when you were going to college and so forth, Dr. King, James Farmer, Roy Wilkins, Whitney Young, Bayard Rustin, and of course, John Lewis and Julian Bond and Dorothy Height. A J Muste played a role, too, in influencing Mr. Rustin. Nonviolence and Gandhi's approach was what they believed in. And then we had the next group that followed, which was Malcolm X. Then you had the Bobby Seales, the Stokely Carmichaels, the H Rap Browns, the Eldridge and Kathleen Cleaver, Huey Newton, Fred Hampton, and Angela Davis. And they had a different approach. It was more of a confrontational, by any means necessary, Black Power. Did you have a problem when this change happened? EG (01:15:41): Well, I mean, I always thought I was a lot more practical. I was somewhere in between the changes in style and approach. I mean, one of the reasons I found the work with the Randolph Institute and the apprenticeship program fulfilling was that we were results oriented. And sometimes some of the other activity was less results, and it is more optic. So yeah, I just felt there was still the strand that had been going on for some time. It was Du Bois and Booker T Washington. It was Garvey. It was something that we had seen before. SM (01:16:51): And actually, if you think about it, it was even Dr. King and Thurgood Marshall because if you remember, Dr. King admired Thurgood Marshall. But he also said that was a more gradualist approach, by going through the courts and laws and having laws passed. EG (01:17:07): Right. SM (01:17:07): Dr. King wanted it now. EG (01:17:10): Well, and I think each generation wants it now, but the reality is now requires a whole series of building blocks. If you think that the march at Edmond Pettus Bridge is really one of the things that helped bring about the Voting Rights Act, and the Voting Rights Act eventually led to President Obama. But the length of time it took to get from across the bridge to Obama was what, 30 years? SM (01:17:54): Yep. EG (01:17:55): Yeah. I always thought that Little Rock would be just another story in the long line of school cases. And I am still surprised that it stood out as one of the singular examples of that whole era. SM (01:18:25): Where did you stand on Dr. King, two things, when he proclaimed that we need to judge people not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character? And also he said we need to concentrate on people's economic conditions and not just race. And he was criticized for going away from the race issue toward more economics. And I think the conservatives today try to take Dr. King's words on content of their character as saying, "We got to get beyond race." They use it to their advantage. Get your thoughts on Dr. King's... on both of those areas. EG (01:19:04): Well, race is such a long and thorny part of this country. It is impossible to get away from race. But the economic, the ability to have decent jobs, decent housing all tied to the achievement... I see it as the achievement gap, the differentials between Black and white income. It is intertwined. It is not an either/or. That was the great experience working with Bayard and Mr. Randolph, that that got reinforced all of the time. SM (01:19:55): Dr. King was also criticized for going North, where many belief he should have stayed in the South and concentrated on racism there. And I think Bayard Rustin, if I am not mistaken, was against him going North and believed that he should have made his efforts staying in the South. And I just had an interview with Julius Lester, and he said he thought King failed miserably up in the North, and he should have stayed in the South. Your thoughts on that because Dr. King saw racism everywhere. EG (01:20:26): Well, that is where income gap and other things all intertwined. It was, excuse the pun, a lot less Black and white in the North than it was issues in the South. And whether it was Chicago or wherever, it was the politics of it, the history all made it more murkier than the battles in Birmingham and Mississippi and other places, and Arkansas. So yeah, in a lot of ways, I mean, Dr. King was always being pushed to do something else, other than what he was doing. SM (01:21:16): Do you think he failed in the North? EG (01:21:18): I do not think so. I mean, at the end of the day, he highlighted the duplicity that while you did not have formal segregation in the North, you had de facto segregation. And it was the same as the Jim Crow rules. Either formally or informally, you were not there. SM (01:21:47): Where do we stand today in the area of civil rights? Is there still a long way to go? Or where are the specific weaknesses still? Some people will say that all of the movements, not just the Civil Rights Movement but the women's movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the environmental movement, the Chicano, Asian American, even some of the anti-war, that they have all weakened. They are not seen as much. They are not heard. And if they are heard, they are singular in their approach, and they do not work together. EG (01:22:21): Well, that is probably an apt criticism of them. Yeah. I think the Civil Rights Movement today is still wrestling with some of the same issues, education, housing, jobs, and trying to see how you can have a broader benefit. I mean, that is what all of these movements are suffering from, is how do you broaden the benefit space beyond just a few being able to grow and gain from it. To me, that is the issue we wrestle with in this country. SM (01:23:05): I remember seeing an interview with you on YouTube, where at the 50th anniversary of the 1957... It is at the high school. Somebody asked you a question regarding that there were very few African Americans still at the school in Little Rock. Is that true? EG (01:23:29): Well, that was in... They have general courses, and then they have all of the college prep on the advanced courses, and the number of African American youngsters in the advanced placement programs were relatively small compared to where they were placed in the general studies. This is an issue that I do not think is only in Little Rock. EG (01:24:03): I do not think is only in Little Rock, but- SM (01:24:04): It is all over the country. EG (01:24:05): With a lot of school systems. Yeah. SM (01:24:08): And I know it is that way in Philly. EG (01:24:11): And that is an issue that we have to address. And I always thought that my youngest daughter many times had the attitude of many of the teachers were that somehow, she could not do the advanced work. She proved for them to be wrong on that. It is a mindset that reinforces it. When I was a graduate student at Michigan State, did a study on just Detroit school systems and the extracurricular things that as the school turned more and more African American, the special programs like the chess club and the science fair, I mean, all these things started being removed. The assumption was they were removing them even before the students had an opportunity to discover whether they could perform the work or not. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and to me, this is one of the things that we have got to break through. SM (01:25:38): But I know that in 1999, all members of the Little Rock Nine, all nine of you received the Congressional Gold Medal. That must have been quite an experience. EG (01:25:51): It was. It was a high moment. Had not expected it to occur, going back to (19)57. SM (01:25:59): How did you find out that this was happening then? Were you called and said, please come? We are honoring all of them. EG (01:26:07): It is a long process. We were sponsored by Congressman Benny Thompson from Mississippi, and it requires the approval of both the House of Representatives and the Senate. SM (01:26:24): Wow. EG (01:26:29): Congressman Thompson proposed it on the house side and Senator Bumpers proposed it on the Senate side, Bumpers and Pryor. But it took almost a year for the whole system to work itself through. SM (01:26:47): Was your mother there? EG (01:26:49): No, my mother had passed. SM (01:26:52): Okay. I just was hoping she may have been there. And with respect to President Obama, do you think he has done a fairly decent job in civil rights or I know he has been caught up in all these other issues. Where would you put him? Would you give him a grade so far? EG (01:27:08): I would give him an A. I think that he has wrestled with a number of the issues because of what he inherited. And I am of the opinion that legislation at this moment is probably not what we need as much as some policy changes and his continuation on the economy. The economy affected particularly the black community. It devastated it. Home ownership, manufacturing, the industrial belt, loss of jobs. All of that has had a very detrimental effect. SM (01:28:06): It is interesting that he is so vilified by so many, and you watch television shows that... someone sent me an email the other day saying the reason why African Americans voted for President Obama was because he was an African American and they did not look at his policies. And to me, that is signs that that is a racist statement to me. Then also President Obama's critics say that he is the epitome of the return of the (19)60s. President Obama will say, "I have nothing to do with the (19)60s," because he was two years old. EG (01:28:49): Well, I think there is a segment of people in this country that just realize that President Obama is not Caucasian and they are still shocked. My view in a changing world in which the next 30, 40 years, the world is going to be multiethnic that a group of people here still clinging to the old days in Little Rock. They would like to reverse this country back to pre-Supreme Court decision in (19)54. SM (01:29:37): Now Ernie, one thing I will never forget is Henry Cisneros, the former mayor I believe, of San Antonio. EG (01:29:43): Oh, yeah. Yeah. SM (01:29:45): Before he got into trouble, he was speaking in the (19)90s at the NASPA conference that I attended. The higher ed conference. There was this young woman who stood up, a white woman, very well-dressed. She approached and she said he had just given a great lecture on what we were saying, that we were all going to be working for people who are of different color and so forth down the road and just be prepared because this is America. America's changing, and that is okay. It is part of what America is. She stood up and said that she was very afraid of the future and asked him what words of advice that he could give to her after she had just listened to this great lecture, which she should have gotten it. And basically his commentary was, "You need to prepare for the future because the future means that you are going to be working for people of different colors throughout your life." And it is not something to fear, it is just something to, it is part of the evolution of our country. It was an unbelievable moment. And she was afraid of... She was obviously was not prepared for all the changes. Do you think as a nation we have an issue with healing within this nation? Especially within the boomer generation, those born between (19)46 and (19)64, that due to the tremendous divisions that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between black and white, male and female, gay and straight. Even those who supported the war, against the war. Do you think that they are going to go to their graves like the Civil War generation went to its grave not truly healing to... EG (01:31:31): I do not think so. I think there is a lot more. My focus on change. I went back last year for my 50th high school reunion. The class that I graduated with at Central. I said that I could not find anybody in that room who would at this time, wanted to prevent me from going to school there. Everybody wanted to be my best friend. I am sure there is a segment of this country that they can assess to it, but I think for the most part, whether it is getting used to the Internet or getting used to the fact that the good old boys do not run it anymore. I see people making that adjustment and beginning to live with that change. SM (01:32:44): Our students asked that question to Senator Redmond Muskies in 1995, the year before he died. His response was they thought he was going to talk about (19)68 and the convention and all the assassinations that year and that terrible year. That is what students thought he was going to respond. His response is, "We have not healed since the Civil War and the issue of race." He went on to explain in detail, and he actually had tears in his eyes. He had tremendous emotion talking about it. And he gave kind of a history lesson of racism and talked about the Civil War and 600,000 men died in that war. And he made no mention of 1968 or the (19)60s. EG (01:33:35): I do not subscribe to that. I think that probably is a segment who would, or all these re-enacters, but most of the people know that the Civil War we fought, oh, about a hundred years ago, has got to be behind us. And if we want to survive as a country, we can get ourselves stuck in that. But going forward is going to require a lot more. SM (01:34:08): Would you say also that the boomer generation and I include everybody of color because when I am talking about the boomer generation, I am talking every color, ethnic group, male, female, gay and straight. Do you think as a group they do not trust? That is because of the experiences that they had growing up, the lies that were told to them by leaders in all capacities, and certainly at the national level with President Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin, Watergate with Richard Nixon, Eisenhower or the U-2 incident, McNamara and the numbers game from the war. You could not believe anybody. There was a sense that you could not trust anybody in leadership. EG (01:34:55): Well, I take the view that it is because we have so much more information and there is a certain innocence if America had the same focus on World War II and death camps and a whole series of other things going on that we have now, people would have been probably even a lot more suspicious about the outcome from the end of World War II or even the First World War. I mean, it is a fact of changes that occurred, the amount of information we have, the ability to question authority. All of that seems to me as is what the boomer generation has had an opportunity to deal with. SM (01:36:00): Yes, and it is interesting if you are a political science major. The first thing you learn in political science 101 is that not trusting your government means that is a strong citizenry because it is good not to trust your government. Keep them on their toes. EG (01:36:15): Well, and you learn to question everybody everywhere. SM (01:36:20): I only got three more questions and I am done. All right. Was the early civil rights movement sexist with respect to very few women were in leadership roles. I have read so many books saying that the women's movement came about because of the sexism that took place within the civil rights and anti-war movement. EG (01:36:41): We had the nine. We had six women and three young men, so we dealt with female leadership very early. And as far as the leadership of the Whitney Youngs and the Randolph's and Wilkins and all, my experience, when I was in college was a growing number of young women who were attending school and playing leadership roles. For me, it was the best of a problem. SM (01:37:30): And again, a lot of the women's movement people have said they have moved over because of that. And one of the examples that is used is that March on Washington in (19)63 when all you saw was Dorothy was Dorothy Height really to the right and Mahalia Jackson singing. So it was all men, but I guess everybody has their own perceptions. Where were you when JFK was killed and subsequently, where were you when MLK and Bobby Kennedy were killed? Do you know exactly where you were when all three of those things happened? EG (01:38:03): Well, when Kennedy was killed, I was at Michigan State. I was in graduate school when Dr. King was killed, I was coming to New York. Well, I was living in New York and I had just landed on a plane in LaGuardia. When Bobby Kennedy was killed, I am not sure where I was. I think I was in New York, but being in... And JFK I remember vividly where I was at the time I was there. SM (01:38:52): Yeah, I guess I have asked others. There were so many assassinations. You had John Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, you had Medgar Evers, you had Malcolm X, you had even the attempt on Wallace and Gerald Ford was... Somebody tried to shoot him, but it was really had no chance. Then the Ronald Reagan. It seems like, and there are others too, what does that say about America when people in positions of responsibility... Dr. King used to always say, "You can kill the dreamer, but you cannot kill the dream." It is... EG (01:39:28): Yeah. Well, and I think my own personal experience that all of the political balance, I guess if we were protected by angels, because you could have walked into... This is before metal detectors and searches and all. They could have been guns at Michigan centralized. But, we have this wild west mentality sometimes. Then the availability of guns that I just think you have to continue to get people to try to settle disputes and something other than physical violence. That was, to me, the legacy of Dr. King, that the most important weapon is what is between your head and your brain. Tired a cliché as that may seem, that is still to me the important legacy of his teaching. SM (01:40:54): Well, do you think... You have been to the Vietnam Memorial? EG (01:40:59): Yes. SM (01:41:00): What Was your feelings when you went there for the first time? What was going through your mind? EG (01:41:06): Well, that a lot of people lost their lives for what was basically a changing set of demographics. And now we look up and Vietnam is a trading partner of ours, and we are sending tourists over there and people are buying and selling goods and services. It is- SM (01:41:36): Amazing what times does. EG (01:41:38): Yeah. And I believe that we had to lose a lot of good people for the country to understand this was a changing set of events over there that we probably should have let occur rather than trying to how to disrupt them. SM (01:42:04): You have been involved in many boards, but one that really interested me was the one that started in 2004, which was Scout Reach, where you were involved as a volunteer director of serving 600 boys in distressed areas of England. How did you become involved and... EG (01:42:27): Scout Reach? Well, Scout Reach is part of the effort to give scouting to young men who do not come from traditional middle-class families. And it was, I guess, part of the outgrowth of the service end of my growing up experiences that you are expected to try to serve and impact somebody beyond yourself and them. SM (01:43:04): Any Eagle Scouts out of there yet? EG (01:43:07): None that I am aware. Not yet. SM (01:43:11): Okay. I am sure the first one that makes it, you will go bring them to the United States or whatever. My last question is this, history books are often written 50 to 75 years after an event. And that is the best books are sometimes take that long to really understand the period. When you look at this post-World War II America, civil Rights, the anti-war movement, certainly all the other movements, the activism, the backlash with Ronald Reagan coming in 1980, the rise of the conservatives and so forth, and then back and forth. Now we have President Obama. So the last 65 years that boomers have been alive have been unbelievable times as you have described so well in answering some of my questions. What do you think the history books and the sociologists and historians will say after the last boomer has passed on from all ethnic groups and anyone who even is alive? EG (01:44:13): I think that this period is probably the most dynamic period that this country has ever seen. I view the last 50 years for me is probably some of the greatest changes that have occurred in this country and in this society. And the future is it is going to get faster, changes are going to be even greater. And I think this boomer generation has an opportunity to help prepare whatever we call the next generation to accept change and be ready for it to occur in a really rapid succession. SM (01:45:09): Well, the naysayers and doubters that criticize this generation, and there are many, a lot of them placed the blame on boomers for the ... Because of the sexual revolution, the divorce rate, the welfare state mentality, the lack of respect for law and order. These are terms that come from the backlash, especially toward anyone that was involved in activism. But what do you think? How do you respond to these people who make general commentaries that the problems we face in our society today go right back to that period of the (19)60s and (19)70s? The counterculture, the culture wars. We saw it with John Kerry when he ran for president in 2004, that they cannot get over what he said as a member of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. It is non-ending. EG (01:46:08): Well, but there is a crowd that would blame change on anything other than their ability to accept it. My attitude is we continue to push on and push beyond them. SM (01:46:27): My last commentary was, and I have heard this in my interviews, is well, the boomer generation said they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, and war, bring peace. Look at the world today. I would say they have not done it. When you hear that, and it is a general commentary toward this generation that thought they were so special. EG (01:46:52): Well, my aunt says that the founding fathers said that they were going to create a society of equality. And we had a lot of the leadership, Jefferson and Washington and others who were big slave owners. It is an imperfect world. We were always working to make changes. And my view is these ideals that we want to try to achieve, we just have to keep working on them. And that was my view when I went to Little Rock Central in (19)57 that I did not know if I would create a perfect world, but I knew I had to start somewhere. SM (01:47:38): And your current work that you have been doing since (19)85 to today? EG (01:47:43): Well, I have been an investment banker with a couple of firms, and now I am involved with an effort in partnership with a couple of other people to create a fund and private equity and see if we cannot grow some businesses. SM (01:48:07): And we need businesses today. No question about that. Ernie, I do not know if you have any final comments or all. I am done. EG (01:48:13): No, I think you have covered quite a waterfront, so I will look forward to seeing the final outcome. SM (01:48:23): Great. And what I will do is you will see your transcript. I am going to be hibernating for about nine months, transcribing all these myself. And then of course the final approval will be when you see it, and then you will make any corrections or whatever. EG (01:48:40): All right. I will look forward to seeing it. SM (01:48:43): And finally, I am going to need two pictures of you, but I will come down to Washington and take your picture sometime in the spring or early summer. EG (01:48:48): Okay, very good. I will look for it. SM (01:48:51): Ernie, thank you very much. Continued success in everything you do. My heart will be there at the University of Arkansas when they honor your mom. EG (01:49:00): Yeah. Okay. Well... SM (01:49:02): What day is that? EG (01:49:03): It is the Sunday of Mother's Day. SM (01:49:06): Wow. EG (01:49:07): So I think it is like the 13th or 14th. SM (01:49:11): Well, your mom will be right there with you. EG (01:49:12): All right. SM (01:49:13): She will be there. EG (01:49:15): Thank you. SM (01:49:15): Ernie, you have a great day and thank you very much. EG (01:49:17): All right. You too. Goodbye. SM (01:49:17): Bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ernest Green Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Green, Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon), 1941- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights workers; Consultants; Investment advisors; Central High School (Little Rock, Ark.)--History; School integration--Arkansas--Little Rock--History--20th century; Green, Ernest G. (Ernest Gideon), 1941--Interviews Description An account of the resource Ernest Green is a consultant, investment executive, and Civil Rights Leader. Green was one of the first black students to integrate at Central High School in Little Rock, Arkansas, following the Supreme Court 1954 ruling to desegregate. Green graduated with a Bachelor's degree and a Master's degree in Sociology from Michigan State University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-03-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.195 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 109:21 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2a635b973ea3796da4b1bb7292828d6b.mp3 aae7324e940e208c03b4140a39b559d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Paul Gorman Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Paul Gorman is an environmentalist, educator, author, former radio host and congressional aide. A graduate of Yale and Oxford Universities, Gorman served as press secretary and speechwriter to Senator Eugene McCarthy in the 1968 presidential campaign. He taught at the City University of New York, Sarah Lawrence College and Adelphi University, and hosted a public radio program for over 28 years. Gorman is founder and executive director of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment since 1993. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":342787,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"inherit","16":10,"19":0,"21":0}">Paul Gorman is an environmentalist, educator, author, former radio host, and a congressional aide. A graduate of Yale and Oxford Universities, Gorman served as press secretary and speechwriter to Senator Eugene McCarthy in the 1968 presidential campaign. He taught at the City University of New York, Sarah Lawrence College, and Adelphi University, and hosted a public radio program for over 28 years. Gorman is the founder and executive director of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment since 1993. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"John F. Kennedy; Eugene McCarthy; Corruption in government; Yippies; Woodstock; Religion in the Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Influence of TV on society; Vietnam War; Nonviolent protests. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">John F. Kennedy; Eugene McCarthy; Corruption in government; Yippies; Woodstock; Religion in the Nineteen sixties; Baby boom generation; Influence of TV on society; Vietnam War; Nonviolent protests. </span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 174:09 Subject LCSH Environmentalists; Radio broadcasters; Press secretaries; Speechwriters; Authors, American--20th century; National Religious Partnership for the Environment; College teachers; Gorman, Paul--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Paul Gorman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gorman, Paul ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Environmentalists; Radio broadcasters; Press secretaries; Speechwriters; Authors, American--20th century; National Religious Partnership for the Environment; College teachers; Gorman, Paul--Interviews Description An account of the resource Paul Gorman is an environmentalist, educator, author, former radio host, and a congressional aide. A graduate of Yale and Oxford Universities, Gorman served as press secretary and speechwriter to Senator Eugene McCarthy in the 1968 presidential campaign. He taught at the City University of New York, Sarah Lawrence College, and Adelphi University, and hosted a public radio program for over 28 years. Gorman is the founder and executive director of the National Religious Partnership for the Environment since 1993. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.194a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.194b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 174:09 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/bcde815821c1a12b591b3bd9271812ca.jpg 1226b261b19d5230bdd0a032b5051c3e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0fcc27afb48ff690ed7e06cfe9d6e09e.mp3 a19ffbe202c71cb08412328ade9f982f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2011-04 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Jackie Goldberg Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 3 microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Jackie Goldberg is a politician, teacher, member of the Democratic Party, a former member of the California State Assembly, and was president of the Los Angeles School Board. Goldberg was a founder member of the California Legislative LGBT Caucus and of the Progressive Caucus in Sacramento. She has a Bachelor's degree from University of California, Berkeley and a Master's degree in education from the University of Chicago."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Jackie Goldberg is a politician, teacher, member of the Democratic Party, a former member of the California State Assembly, and was president of the Los Angeles School Board. Goldberg was a founder member of the California Legislative LGBT Caucus and of the Progressive Caucus in Sacramento. She has a Bachelor's degree from the University of California, Berkeley and a Master's degree in education from the University of Chicago.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Tea Party Movement; Baby boom generation; Free Speech Movement; Nineteen sixties; Ronald Reagan; Religion; Black Panthers; Vietnam War."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Tea Party Movement; Baby boom generation; Free Speech Movement; Nineteen sixties; Ronald Reagan; Religion; Black Panthers; Vietnam War.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 213:16 Subject LCSH Politicians--United States; Teachers—California; Progressivism (United States politics); Goldberg, Jackie--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Jackie Goldberg Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Goldberg, Jackie ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Politicians--United States; Teachers—California; Progressivism (United States politics); Goldberg, Jackie--Interviews Description An account of the resource Jackie Goldberg is a politician, teacher, member of the Democratic Party, a former member of the California State Assembly, and was president of the Los Angeles School Board. Goldberg was a founder member of the California Legislative LGBT Caucus and of the Progressive Caucus in Sacramento. She has a Bachelor's degree from the University of California, Berkeley and a Master's degree in education from the University of Chicago. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-04 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.193a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.193b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.193c Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 213:16 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8b281f038821877b5c6ffaac6ec6b695.jpg bf5e7247999d5aa55bbcfb75f9ed7e59 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/100431540e060eb86796f283148dff5c.mp3 9aa2a29114b1858a16cf6fffa51e64b5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1997-07-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Todd Gitlin Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 3 microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Todd Gitlin is a sociologist, educator, political writer, novelist, cultural commentator, and author of sixteen books. He wrote about mass media, politics, intellectual life and the arts, for both popular and scholarly publications. He currenlty is a professor of Journalism and Sociology and chair of the Ph. D. program in Communications at Columbia University. He received his Bachelor's degree in Mathematics from Harvard College and earned his Mater's degree from the University of Michigan in Political Science, and his Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley in Sociology."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Todd Gitlin (1943-2022) was a sociologist, educator, political writer, novelist, cultural commentator, and author of sixteen books. He wrote about mass media, politics, intellectual life and the arts, for both popular and scholarly publications. He was a professor of Journalism and Sociology and chair of the Ph. D. program in Communications at Columbia University. He received his Bachelor's degree in Mathematics from Harvard College and earned his Master's degree from the University of Michigan in Political Science, and his Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley in Sociology.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; Generation gap; Rebellion against authority; Nineteen sixties; Tom Hayden; John F. Kennedy; George McGovern; Nineteen sixties-Nineteen seventies music"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; Generation gap; Rebellion against authority; Nineteen sixties; Tom Hayden; John F. Kennedy; George McGovern; Nineteen sixties-Nineteen seventies music</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 75:34 Subject LCSH Sociologists; Authors, American--20th century; College teachers; Columbia University; Gitlin, Todd--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Todd Gitlin Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 23 July 1997 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:00): Put it right here. TG (00:00:03): Put it where? SM (00:00:03): Oh. Well, first questions I want to ask is, in recent years there has been a lot of written materials and actually a lot of journalists and even some politicians who claim that a lot of the reasons why we have problems in America today is because of the boomer generation. Replacing direct blame on that group of 60 to 70 million, whatever the count is, for all the bills of society. They are doing it in general terms. And when I say this, of course, we are talking about the breakdown of the American family, the increase of the drug culture, the lack of respect for authority, the divisiveness in American society, and maybe in some respects, even though the lack of civility we have toward each other because of those times. Could you respond to that thought, that kind of mentality that is out there today? TG (00:00:54): Well, first of all, I think it is not a rigorous claim. It is hard to know what it would mean to blame a cultural development of great complexity upon a generation of six- if it is a generation of 60 to 70 million people. And you are talking about upwards of a quarter of the American population. So if you are saying that one quarter of the American population is responsible for an abortion and culture, I am not sure what you are saying, generations do not act in lockstep. I think what is meant is that there is a particular segment of this so-called generation, and I say so-called because I should clarify why I am skeptical about the term. The baby boom is classified technically as consisting of everyone born between 1946 to 1964. Does it make sense to call this body a generation? These are people who the oldest of whom are 18 years older than the youngest of them. In what sense is somebody born in 1946, a member of the same generation as somebody born the year of the free speech murder. Born after the Kennedy assassination. So I think there is a lot of sloppy thinking here. What is meant is the charge that there is some critical mass of people who were the counter cultural or some combination of political activists and hippies or quasi hippies and that they are the ones who undermined authority. Now I think there is some truth to that. It certainly was the intention of these cultural movers and shakers to be the instruments of unsettlement in the culture to undermine authority. Sometimes in a targeted way and sometimes in a rather indiscriminate way. But to say that they are actors without influences is to say something absurd. They would then be the only actors in history not to have influences. So if one asks why there was a thrust to dismantle or well, to challenge or at the farther realms to undermine authority, you would have to ask why was authority vulnerable? This has to be part of the answer. And part of the answer to that question is because there were grave and blaring social problems which were experienced as social problems by large numbers of people, not simply by the activist here, but by people with grievances. And the authority to a considerable degree discredited itself. That is to say it made claims, which it could not live up to. In itself incapable of ruling legitimate. The Vietnam War is a very important part of the story of the undermining of this culture. The emergence of commercial popular culture and youth culture is another important part of the story. The emergence of the drug culture is another important part of the story. The implosion of the (19)50s family is an important part of the story. I mean, this is a very complicated story. As soon as I have complicated it, then automatically I think I have discredited any single factor charge. And so I need to do. SM (00:04:52): Let me check my [inaudible]. TG (00:04:52): Okay. SM (00:05:00): In 1997 and as we get into 1998, if you were to just... Again, it is hard to define the 60 million, but if you were to say what define the boomer generation in 1997 terms and the overall impact that this generation has had on America as they approach 50. Because obviously when Bill Clinton became president of all the media was talking about he was leading the boomers because he was born in 1946. So just as of this juncture, as boomers are heading into this age of 50, what has been the overall impact so far on America with this group? TG (00:05:40): Bill Clinton is a baby boomer and so is Newt Gingrich. Trent Lott is a little bit older, but Dick Armey I suppose is a baby boomer too. What is the aggregate impact of these people? Obviously, it cuts across political lines. You could say there is a certain recklessness in this generation. Again, well, I still do not want to call it a generation, but by generation here, if we mean those born between 1946 to 1964, there is a certain recklessness, there is a certain unruliness, there is a certain arrogance, a certain belief that there is a destiny compounded by normal American self-grand and a destiny to remake the world, start the world war, and so on. But obviously the ways in which the members of this generation played out were very different, I mean Bill Clinton's form of arrogance is quite different in its imports, certainly as political import than Gingrich is. So I suppose overriding this political differences, there is a certain libertarianism that is the hallmark of people of this vintage often cutting across, let us say, lines of economic preferences and so on. A certain assumption that individuals make their own destinies and that they grow, they should not be current. Nobody should tell them how fast to drive and nobody should tell them what to smoke. You could argue there is also certain puritanism that goes with them. But once we are off into these questions of this magnitude, I find it impossible to say anything terribly meaningful about the politics or the cultural impact on this generation or except on to say individuals. SM (00:07:49): I am looking at, you teach college students today. TG (00:07:52): I actually teach mostly graduate students here, but... SM (00:07:53): I am going to see your graduate students returning students have been out in the world a while. TG (00:08:00): A lot of them. I do not know, probably 60, 50. SM (00:08:03): Well, just your thoughts on today's young people, and again, even this generation Xers, there are lot of Muslim hate that term. TG (00:08:09): I do not blame them. Probably, as much as I hate boomers. SM (00:08:13): Right. But looking at the boomers and the children of boomers, what influence have boomers had on their children in terms of the values that they held? And again, you cannot define the whole generation, but the values they held at that time. Because at that time you saw many young people active the civil rights movement, certainly against the war in Vietnam, the new movements, the came as a result of learning from the civil rights movement with the women's movement, the gay lesbian movement, the Native American movement and the environmental movement. They all kind of came around that period. There was this idealism, this passion. And I would love to have your perceptions on whether the boomers have been able to transfer these feelings to their children and whether they have been able to carry these passions on into their adult or themselves. TG (00:09:04): Well, to some degree, I think on questions of personal liberty, the carryover is substantial. It is not absolute, it is substantial. That is the more or less libertarian parents have raised a more or less libertarian generation. A skeptical generation of parents has raised or is raising a skeptical generation of kids. A disabused of authority, parent generation was raising an equivalently disabused of authority generation. I think the parental generation was hostile to racism and so are the children in general compared to earlier generations of anti [inaudible]. So in all those ways, I would say, and also let us say the degree of tolerance there is of gay and lesbians and people with different trait and so on. I think at least in the middle classes, there is a considerable area. On the other hand, it is part of the human condition. I think that the young go into rebellion, and I would not want to generalize it, the ways in which that happens. Sometimes it happens by becoming more conservative. Sometimes it happens by becoming more adventurous and reckless. I think that the impact here have less to do or many of the impact have less to do with the impact, with the influence of the parental generation. Remember the influence of a reality of a life world, which is different. In particular, assumptions about the economic future. The shift is from a society that assumes that there is going to be fat on the land to live off and a generation that to some degree is more edgy and anxious and assumes that the world is any less more attractive. I would add, by the way, you asked about the environmental issues. I think there has been some influence by the generation. Although there are too, it is hard to separate out the influence of the parental generation and the influence of media and the general culture. So I would be interrupted to think that you could... SM (00:11:40): If you were to describe the qualities you most admire and the qualities you least admire in the boomer generation, what would they be? TG (00:11:48): Well, again, I do not think I can answer that question unless you tell me what you mean by the boomer generation. SM (00:11:55): Well, I would say probably I would break it down to those individuals that were young in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, not so much the later boomers, because I see it even in higher education today. The people I work with that the younger boomers say those from (19)56 to (19)64 born in that period have no concept at all about what it was like then because they were too young. TG (00:12:16): Sure. SM (00:12:17): So I am basically referring to the people that were young through the mid-(19)60s, say through the mid-(19)70s. TG (00:12:22): And you are talking about the... I am sorry, go ahead. SM (00:12:25): So what do you think are the positive or the negative qualities of that aspect? TG (00:12:30): Are you referring to their qualities at the time or their qualities today? SM (00:12:34): Oh, just as you reflect on that era over time. The qualities, you can either say the qualities you had most admired then living through it or qualities that you reflected upon today and people that... TG (00:12:48): But you are talking about the qualities that they- SM (00:12:49): Yes. TG (00:12:50): ...embodied at the time. SM (00:12:51): Yes, at the time and whether the things that you felt were positive and some of the things you thought were negative. TG (00:12:58): Well, their rebelliousness against stupid authority and destructive and violent war making power was very fine. Much of it was driven by selfishness and much of it was not. Obviously, I admire the courageous and self-abnegating more than the self-interested. But I think it made a lasting contribution to American history. I admire, if that is the right word, doing this to take risks personally. Now to admire that is also to be willing to be critical of some of the consequences. Some of the risks were stupid and dangerous, especially the ones having to do with drugs. But I admire the riskiness and admire it, especially when I look at the subsequent young people who it seems too much more resigned to the world as it is. I also admire something else in, again, many of the people in this group. I admire something that here that by no means was generally shared. I admire the conviction that it should be done well, things should be done. And that meant well ethically. It also meant well technically, the spirit of commitment to doing work that one control, to doing work that was pioneering, original. All those things are admirable and some of those carry over into pursuits that are very different from what was it in play in the late (19)60s and carries over into running fancy restaurants with food, and get capitalism, if you will. SM (00:15:23): Looking at the two basic... TG (00:15:25): But in general, I think I admire people. I think in this culture it is very hard to care about doing good things and I admire people. Hold on a second, Steve. I [inaudible] missing. [inaudible]. SM (00:15:44): When you look at the two main issues of that era, which was the civil rights movement and certainly the war against Vietnam and the protest movement, I should say. I would like your opinion on how important you feel the young people were in ending that war and with particular emphasis again on that era, the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, what was happening on college campuses at the time, so-called 15 percent who were involved in some sort of activism. How important were they in ending the war? And the second part of the question is, how important were boomers in the Civil Rights Movement knowing that Freedom Summer was in 1964 and a lot of the civil rights war was in the (19)50s and the (19)60s and it would be about 18 years old if you were going down the Freedom Summer in the South because... So just your general thoughts on the impact that college students had on any of the war and how then if you could just how important the boomers were in the Civil Rights Movement. TG (00:16:46): The campus rebellion convinced the political leadership in the Democratic Party and political leadership to whom the Democrats were beholden that they should end the war because the war was tearing the country apart. And once Nixon was in power, the fact that the anti-war opposition was so demonstrative, convinced Nixon to Vietnamized the war that is to get American troops out. And eventually, I think and crucially place limits on the military expeditions, the military tactics that the US was willing to resort to in Vietnam, is what we mean by ending the war. I think if you performed the [inaudible] experiment and ask what would have happened if there had been no anti-war movement, if baby boomers had not enlisted any, it is hard for me to make a case that the war would have been shorter or less bloody. So I do not find that case persuasive. As for the civil rights movement, you are quite right. I mean the people made the civil rights movement happen. Were older than baby boomers, so case is closed. I mean some of them were foot soldiers in Mississippi in (19)64, and so they were not by themselves decisively. SM (00:18:17): You think they have carried on? TG (00:18:19): Again, I caution you against a hard and fast distinction between people on the basis of who might have been born in 1945 and who might have been born in 1946. SM (00:18:35): That is come up too, because many of the people I have interviewed are 55 and 54 and they quote, "Do not fall into the category of the boomer generation." TG (00:18:43): Well, the leaders... SM (00:18:44): They were on the front lines. They were like the... I remember Harry Edwards when he wrote that book, Black Students. He wrote down the definition of radicals, revolutionaries and activists and omics activists. I do not know if you remember the book. And basically a lot of the older students involved in the movement were the graduate students or at that time, or would be 55 years old now. TG (00:19:03): Sure. Yeah. But again, the category baby boomer comes along at a certain point in order to try to comprehend what was happening in terms that were not really political. And it is in that sense, itself an interested term. It is not a neutral term. It is a way of saying what we have here is a problem with a bunch of kids rather than what we have here is a certain stagnation and deficiency and often criminality in a political system. SM (00:19:39): And you were... TG (00:19:39): I am saying, I think, that what was in play were political controversies. The actions of generations. Generations were not the actors of the situations. SM (00:19:55): Individuals. In the groups. TG (00:19:56): Well, in groups, groupings, movements. SM (00:20:01): Let us put a time were back here and put back in time. You were obviously very involved with SDS and so forth and you were involved with many groups. You were against the war in Vietnam and you were obviously the epitome of the term activist from that era. I have asked this to everyone and you might want to go along the same lines of previous questions, but many people that I was around, I was allowed too on a college campuses, so I was assuming thing and firm and they want to [inaudible]. So I got around a lot of activist students too. We got about a lot of issues. We had a lot of things. But there was a feeling that we were the most unique generation in American history because of the times and you had made a reference of an adjective to describe the boomers or the group that was involved arrogantly. Is that a sign of arrogance by... Even you, you were involved that we were the most unique generation in American history. TG (00:21:00): I did not say that. SM (00:21:00): You did not say it, but some people felt that because of the times, because of the issues. Some people may even say in throughout history, nothing ever... There were so many issues that came together all at once. TG (00:21:12): Jean-Paul Sartre wrote in the introduction to a book by a school classmate of his, he wrote, "We thought the world was new because we were new in the world." He was writing about the group of French elite students who were born around 1905. He was describing during their 20s. Feeling that the world is new and that you are experiencing it is unprecedented, is not a new feeling. What was new in the (19)60s was that so many people felt that the world was an unprecedented world and so many of them had access to mass media, which were receptive to that message. And there you go to the rather arrogant claim that the novelty of this moment is unprecedented. I mean, yes, it was a terrible to stare at the war in Vietnam. It was terrible to stare at World War II. It was terrible to stare at story at the World War I. It was terrible to live through the Civil War. History is a nightmare. So I do not take claims like this very seriously, but it certainly is. It is factually true that many of the so-called boomers thought that the way in which their situation was essentially was new. Whether is that accurate? I do not know how to say. I mean it seems to be an unanswerable question. SM (00:23:01): This goes right into the next theory because we talk about maybe an attitude of uniqueness, but again, this quote, "We are going to be positive change agents for the world." It is an opposite. TG (00:23:12): Sounds rather arrogant. SM (00:23:13): Well, but during the Vietnam War protest, the immorality of the war, Dr. King been making that tremendous speech linking civil rights in the war in Vietnam. Seeing the morality not only at home, but in Southeast Asia. There was a sense of, I do not even know if we want to get in morality here, that many that were involved were morally right. TG (00:23:35): True. SM (00:23:36): And whether that feeling that we were positive change agents, that by we, meaning those that were involved in the movement and positive change agents for the betterment of society. And that is true that the war ended. TG (00:23:52): Do I think what is true? SM (00:23:54): That the individuals involved were positive change agents for society. TG (00:23:57): Absolutely. SM (00:24:00): Those positive change agents was you think many of those people have carried on? The war ended, so that is open. But the idealism getting involved, caring about others, do you think that has continued within this group as they have gone into their age? TG (00:24:18): As people age, they become more conservative. They have more to conserve. This generation, again, for all of its claims of novelty is no different from any other. It had other things to do. It had successes to make. It had property to acquire. It had families to raise. It had an America to live in. I do not believe that people will, a historical period into being, everything was in place for these movers to move and shake the world. In the (19)60s, they were great popular upheavals to be lived in and furthered and the period since, for a variety of reasons. The period since mid-(19)70s has been very, very different character, has been in many ways a rebellion against the rebellion. It has been a counter rebellion, which also follows from the tremendous magnitude and scope of the convulsions of the (19)60s. It was going to be a counter reaction, do not simply tell society to change and expect that it is going to cave in and say, "Okay, your kids are right." So when the convulsion came back, in the faces of the baby boomer, change agents. Many were cowed, many were chasing, many became more conservative. But all the evidence from sociological studies says that those who were politically active in the movements of late (19)60s and contacted 10, 20 years later were more likely to be politically active on the left than those of their peers who had not been politically active before. They made less money. They were more likely to be involved in so-called helping professions. But they are not 18 anymore. SM (00:26:32): The David Horowitz is not the world of rarity. TG (00:26:35): Well, David Horowitz was not a leader of the new left. David Horowitz is considerably older. SM (00:26:40): I want to get into the aspect of healing, getting back to the tremendous divisions of that era. Certainly the Vietnam War, civil rights, and of course the issue of rioting in the streets. We all know anybody who knows history of that 1968 Democratic convention. TG (00:27:00): Hold on a second. Hold on a second. SM (00:27:01): Yes. Okay. This gets into the question of healing. I made a reference to it earlier in reference to Senator Muskie, meaning we had. Do you feel that, again, I know you have a hard time with the term boomer representing the 60 some million or... TG (00:27:20): I have a very hard time with it. SM (00:27:22): But do you feel that the boomers who were acting, are having a hard time with healing from that era? Because, let me explain. The divisions were so intense and you know this. The divisions were so deep and today many people still do not forgive those who were on the other side. The Democratic Party actually is still they say, you are still having problems from that era, and the divisions within the party, within that era? TG (00:27:48): Sure. It is partly correct. SM (00:27:51): But do you feel that the boomer generation themselves are still having problems with healing from the divisions of that time as they have gotten older? That is those who were for and against the war, the veteran as opposed to the protest. TG (00:28:03): You mean healing internally or healing in their relation with each other? SM (00:28:10): Both. TG (00:28:12): Well, I think to feel abandoned by your country is a grievous feeling. Many people who were against the war and many people who were for the war came out feeling abandoned by their country. In a sense, both have a case to make. Both were abandoned in a variety of ways, and both had expectations which were not lived up to. So both feelings are understandable. Between each other, I do not take it to be given that people in a big and complex society should love each other. There was a huge political conflict. It is not a generational conflict. It is a political conflict. Societies that have been through bitter political conflicts do not easily heal. Those who were most committed on different political sides do not easily reconcile. Nor is it self-evident to me that they should. SM (00:29:26): I want to really get that... TG (00:29:27): But you see, there are many things that divide those who were devoted supporters of the war, and those who were devoted opponents of the war. There were many things divide. There were [inaudible] divisions here. The difference is getting wise. And so these differences also should not be collapsed simply into differences with respect to the experience of the war. But certainly it is the case. I mean, certainly the great division in American society was between those who had to fight in the war and those who did not. Now that was not of the making of baby boomers. That was making of the policy makers who decided who would be drafted and who should be sheltered for the draft. Those were largely class division. And that was a matter of political policy that was not undertaken by the boomers. The boomers did not make policy about who was drafted. Those policies were made by government agencies, by the selective service system, and ultimately by the political authorities who did not want to have middle class kids sent to war. So we had a highly selective draft. We had essentially a work class war. And of course, there was bitterness between those who went and those who did not. But what my point is, and it is not... There was also much bitterness between those who went and supported the war and those who went and hated the war. This is all very complicated. But my point is that it is not that the boomers created that division. That division was structured as a result of policy. SM (00:30:58): Do you think again, there should be efforts made to bring the opposing sides together, try to understand the intensity of the divisions, not only to heal more beyond the Vietnam memorial wall, which is supposed to heal the nation, transcribes books to heal the nation, which was geared toward the healing Vietnam veterans and their [inaudible]. TG (00:31:20): I will check. Make sure this [inaudible]. Should efforts be made to bring people together? SM (00:31:26): Yeah. Should efforts be made to bring posing sides together even today, to try to get a better understanding of the division so that there can be lessons of learning for future generations. That in times of difficulty, which may come forth, that there some specific lessons that can be taught and that healing should be one of them. Because I get back to that statement that Senator Muskie made, which was a surprise to our students and to me when I asked that question, because I thought he was going to go right back to (19)68, the divisions in America. That healing, that generations oftentimes become bitter and they carry that bitterness to their grave and that bitterness is transferred to their children who then carry it on for generations. And then may be one of the unique things that could have come up of the divisions of the (19)60s and its early (19)70s amongst the boomers is that, they make greater efforts to heal within the ranks. Not only between those who were for of those who were against the war, the tremendous divisions within the cities. I know the riots were happening. There is a lot involved here, but efforts be made to try to understand the passion of the times more. That efforts should be made to bring some together, knowing that we cannot heal 60 million people. But... TG (00:32:51): I think that conversation among people would disagree it is always... Do I think that no one should not have an illusions here? I think that the people who were on these supposed sides then largely do understand why they had the views they did. What they need is something much more elusive than understanding. And I do not know what it is. I do not know what it is. It alludes me too. God knows you have had plenty of conversations in America about the Vietnam War and what the complete [inaudible]. And I do not think there is a ritual solution. I think we keep looking for ritual solution to what was a deep political conflict. I do not think the wall does it. I do not think movies do it. I do not think boomers do it. I do not think anything in particular does it. I think it is okay for society to live with the differences. I do not know how. I mean individuals find their own way to avoid tangled landscape. But I do not know about collective solutions. I do not hear it. I just do not know. SM (00:34:13): [inaudible], of the old term [inaudible]. TG (00:34:16): I mean, I think the wall. I mean, just speaking personally, I think the wall is wonderful. It is very beautiful and very moving and very stirring and it does not feel me in this lightest, nor does it affect my views. Well, I value it greatly as a monument, but I do not. So as the work that is claimed for it. You think the nation... I am sure that the nation should be [inaudible]. A terrible war was done. Terrible crimes were done. Would it mean for me to change my view about the nature of these crimes? I do not know. They do not change my view. I do not have any regrets about that. And so there are consequences in history. People try to do difficult things and it is going to hurt. Why should we expect it is going to make us feel good. We live in a feel good culture. Why should we feel good about that history? I do not think history should make us feel good. I think history is shame. For me, not my project. I mean, I want to be a fully living human being, but I do not... I think life breaks everybody in some way or other. Anyway, who is right? [inaudible] strong and broken places, but the ways in which people are broken and then the ways in which they need to heal ourselves immensely the areas. I do not know how to think about doing it in one false move. SM (00:35:57): Sure. This site is working properly here. Could you, in your own words, define the generation gap that took place at that time between the boomers and the World War II generation? There has been books written about it, but from your own perspective, what did the generation gap mean to you? And then secondly, what does a generation gap mean today between the boomers and their kids? TG (00:36:22): Even in the (19)60s, I did not find the term generation gap very useful. I did not feel that I was involved in a generation gap. I thought I was involved in a political conflict. I mean, I also had differences with my parents, but those were also political differences. There is a lot of research by the way that goes to show that a great number of the activists of the left who did not especially experience a generation gap with their parents, they experienced a political conflict with the leaders of the country. Dick Flacks and many other researchers have discovered that the values of the student activists were not in general, not in general at least that where this was studied awfully different than the values of their parents. They came from relatively democratic families. That is the center of political families in general, where this was studied. So I never thought much of a concept and I still do not. I do not think it was a generation gap. It was a political country. SM (00:37:36): How about today between youngers? TG (00:37:41): You mean teenagers? SM (00:37:41): Yeah, teenagers and... TG (00:37:43): Teenagers are always at odds with their parents. The question is not whether they are at odds. The question is what social and cultural forms do they find and wish to express that? And those will always be different. My mother felt estranged from her parents in certain ways, but growing up during the depression, the circumstances were not conducive to, it was in a full-blown, acted out rebellion of this sort that we are. But it was not that there was no generational tension. It was enormous generational tension. I do believe it is in the human condition that there be such tensions and that young people need to set out to differentiate themselves in some way, which is a painful fixing process that hurts everybody, but is also necessary. SM (00:38:42): You teach a lot of college kids today and do you see activism happening that much amongst today's young people? TG (00:38:55): Not very much. SM (00:38:56): And I want to different age activism, because we all know chronical higher education stayed over and over again every year with [inaudible] studies that over 85 percent of law entering freshman in their high school years were involved in volunteer activity and continue to do so when they get into college. But I remember reading that volunteerism is often symbolic of a conservative era rather than a liberal era. That you have to define the difference between volunteerism on the one hand and true activism on the other, which means caring about the political process, voting and actually even being desirous of some juncture of getting into a position of common responsibility as a politician to serve others. And there is no issue in politics. [inaudible]. TG (00:39:39): It is a very different style of activity. I mean, I am not dismissive of it. I share this assessment that service is the, I have called it the silent movement of this generation again. And often enough it is in a certain sense conservative, not something expressive of a conservative era, but it is self-conservative because it aims to act in the name of conserving values. It aims to act in the name of values that are already in place. It aims to do something constructive. It wants to lay hands on and see a difference. It wants to tutor, it wants to take care of the battered women. It wants to take care of homeless people. It wants to reach out and touch someone. It wants to do good in a concrete palpable way. And that is very different from the activist style. There is not very much of the (19)60s activism. But which is not to say that there is no... Well, I do not know. I take it back. What is the state of the moral climate? What is the moral temperature of young people today? It is very hard to read. It seems significantly distracted and private, anxious, diffuse. It is very hard to find any pattern in it. It is a left wing, it is a right wing. It is identities. Certainly there is no thrust that I can make out. There is no pattern that I can make out. There is not certainly any organized movement. There is a great deal of fragmentation. Even among those who would describe themselves as activists, tremendous fragmentation. SM (00:41:38): Have there been any studies about, you mentioned, I do not get the gentleman's name, but that the sons and daughters of activists are activists. Any studies showing the percentage of those that were truly involved in those movements to pass this on to their kids? Or have they shared? This is another question. Have they really shared what they went through with their kids? Or do they feel that I am not going to burden them with what I went through with a young person because they have their own problems today? TG (00:42:13): I do not know of any studies. I am sure there are some. My impression is that most of them, certainly the ones I know have tried to convey to their kids what their (19)60s experience was. But also my impression that significant number of the kids could care less or feel burdened by it or sick and tired of hearing that of Gloria's old days, which understand saddled by memories which are not theirs. In some way imprisoned by their parents harking back to something that sounds so fabulous that they missed. Not a thrill for you. But I do not know of any studies that try to look at this system. I do not know. SM (00:43:10): I hate to use this term again because the quality that I mentioned that would be the most unique generation American history, but we were going into your own personal life. Do you feel that you personally, beyond your years as an activist now into the adulthood and middle age that you have made a contribution to society? Going back to that terminology that many people, that era felt that we are going to be change agents for the betterment of society. So the proof is in the pudding and the proof is in your life. TG (00:43:44): Yeah, I think I have made a contribution. SM (00:43:44): I guess, I say in what ways? TG (00:43:47): Well, I made the... You know I was a foot soldier in the Civil Rights Movement. But I think that was a great crusade that made small contributions towards the entire world movement. I think that was an absolutely necessary [inaudible] with largely healthy consequences. As we left [inaudible] intellectual, I tried to clarify what was happening as best I understood it. Try to make my understanding available to others. That is the intellectual project to try to certifying what is others to feel little more courage and less bewildered and more knowledgeable. I have done what I could in those directions. I think I have done it all brilliantly, no. I think I have done it perfectly, no. SM (00:44:54): When the best history books are written, and they will always say that history books, the best ones are 50 years after an event. Some of the best World War II books now are coming out now. Stephen Ambrose 1940 or early [inaudible]. When the best books are written in maybe even 25 years from now about this period, the (19)60s and a year ago is excellent. So I am not be degrading your book. I am just using what historians often says 50 years later, what are they going to say about movers? What will be the judgment? TG (00:45:29): Again, about 60 million people. I hope they are not making any judgment of 60 million people. But what could that possibly be? That is more than an entire population of Italy or France. What can you say about 60 million people? SM (00:45:46): But even judging even an era of that young generation, the (19)60s. That is booming on the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. What do you think they will be saying about that of the (19)50s? TG (00:45:57): The activists. SM (00:45:57): The activists. TG (00:45:57): Left activist activists. SM (00:45:57): Yes. The left activists. TG (00:46:02): Very different from the boomers. I mean that is a different, already you are down from 60 million people to maybe a few hundred thousand. We are talking about 1 percent of the generation. It is different. I think they will say what I have said. I do not think their judgment will be different. I think they will say that this generation had a big challenge. Did a lot of smart and important things. Made a lot of stupid decisions as well. You know they did. They do great things and they do awful things. And sometimes they do not know at the time which is which, and I think they will see as a generation with great successes and great failures. SM (00:46:43): If there is one... TG (00:46:46): I cannot imagine that they would say anything different. I mean, it would be goofy to do one to say part of that and not say the rest of it. That would be travesty. SM (00:46:57): If there is one event that stands out above all others in your life, the one event that changed your life more than any other, what is that event? TG (00:47:15): Probably the Cuban Missile Crisis. If I had to choose one event. SM (00:47:21): In what way did that have an effect on your life? TG (00:47:24): It convinced me that the respectable Emilio [inaudible], which I had worked in for years was... Its immediate effect was to discourage me from political activity altogether for one. But within a few months I had become president of SDS. I had [inaudible] and radical. SM (00:48:01): I am going to list some names of this period, names that are well-known. Just a few comments on each of them. What do you think? Just your thoughts on them. I have done this with every person and the gamut runs every different direction in terms of how they respond to these people. And these are the household names of the late (19)60s and the early (19)70s. Jane Fonda? TG (00:48:26): She was an actress who got in over her hat. SM (00:48:34): Did you place her? I met her in Tom Hayden at Kent State at the fourth reunion of Kent State [inaudible] before, at the room one and two. How would you rate her? I do not know how Vietnam better feel about it. But how would you rate her? Would you rate her really as a sincere activist? I know about you and about Tom Hayden and I know about Rennie Davis and I know the sincerity there. But was she a sincere activist? Was she really sincere? TG (00:49:06): I never met her then. I met her later. I cannot presume to judge her since I do not know her. SM (00:49:14): Tom Hayden. TG (00:49:18): Well, I knew Tom Hayden starting in 1960. It is hard to summarize. I wrote a great deal of Hayden in my book. Very gifted, charismatic person and strong. Late in the (19)60s, foolish and manipulative [inaudible]. But after that, deeply dedicated and effective. The figure through the early (19)70s when many people who have been involved in the anti-war movement has retired. SM (00:50:12): It is just a complicated figure. He has written a book on the environment recently. And then he just bought a book the other day that he edited essays on hunger in Ireland. He realized he was Irish. He was talking about his Irish background [inaudible]. TG (00:50:26): Middle name is Emmet, named after David Grish. SM (00:50:33): Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. TG (00:50:35): Well, I have also written a great deal about them. Abbie was also very gifted wild figure. Often creative, wholly unaccountable to others. Reckless. And after many relatively solid years, I think starting in 1967, she is quite brilliantly at times and creatively control and at the same time a brilliant cultural entrepreneur. Jerry Rubin far less talented. Far more manipulative and less sincere, self-promoted, less original. SM (00:51:43): About Black Power leaders of that era. The Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, the Black Power figures. TG (00:51:52): Well, those are not Black Power figures. Those are Black Panthers. There is the difference. SM (00:51:56): But Stokely Carmichael. TG (00:51:59): Stokely Carmichael. SM (00:52:00): Right. TG (00:52:00): Okay, so let us take him one at a time. Stokely Carmichael, a very talented and charismatic figure. [inaudible], power turn I think in the end was a serious mistake. As he became progressively more incendiary, became progressively more destructive. Newton, obviously very talented and deeply pathological poet crag. A crag boss in the making. Deeply dipping and delicate, unbalanced man. Bobby Seale. I do not know who he was when he started. He got in over his head. He had very strong authoritarian tendencies. Similar, which I saw in person. What damage he did is hard for me to say. I do not think he was a figure the way he really wants. He is of lesser historical significant. Cleaver. Very smart, very tricky. There was some talent who was promoted far above his... And you remember, let us not forget a long-time rapist. SM (00:53:45): We talk politicians at this time. Lyndon Johnson. TG (00:53:50): Brilliant politician who could have been one of the great presidents and [inaudible] away on Vietnam. The most tragic president of the 20th century. SM (00:54:07): Kennedy. TG (00:54:10): Rustling. A moral, not deeply tested. He died at 46. A brief conference. Oh, it is a very limited. Aggressively deceitful politician with some very shrewd political instance, which enabled him to become president and obviously, was once turned against his own self-interest were also his downfall or felt much for him. SM (00:55:07): Gerald Ford. TG (00:55:11): As a political figure in the late (19)60s or as a president? SM (00:55:14): As a president. TG (00:55:15): As a president, best unelected president we ever have. SM (00:55:25): How about Robert Kennedy? TG (00:55:27): Another great tragedy. Started as a passionate McCarthy, right? And a very bold prosecutor. A man of tremendous force and calculating, capable of learning. Comes in late in (19)68, but then had enormous potential. And how old was he when he died? Could have been 42. Could have been one of the greats. Could have been one of the great presidents. SM (00:56:11): George McGovern. TG (00:56:13): I am very fond of George McGovern. I think the world as in... He was a moral man. Comes out of the best of American Protestant reform. He was an honorable man who made obviously some real miscalculations. But I have never doubted his moral clarity and his decency. SM (00:56:40): Eugene McCarthy. TG (00:56:47): Worst possible leader for a respectable political insurgency. He did one great thing, which was to declare for the presidency. And then he abandoned his campaign and his people throwing the towel. Failed to make deals with Humphrey, which could have prevented the election of Richard Nixon. A terrible political leader, a narcissistic, and work with a political leader. SM (00:57:26): What about Hubert Humphrey himself? TG (00:57:30): A great moment. Civil rights movement was great. He was a very good exponent of nuclear disarmament in the early (19)60s. And then his weakness of character bring him into a marionette Johnson. And he did not come on. He did not. He declare independence soon enough to say it to the Democratic Party. So he has had great opportunity. SM (00:58:01): George Wallace. TG (00:58:04): I just saw it. Four little girls last night. The Spike Lee movie about the girls in Birmingham. It is a wonderful film. I was reminded watching George Wallace, that is how horrible he was. Worst of American racism. Simple Man of several things. SM (00:58:35): Have other people. Timothy Leary. TG (00:58:41): I remember self-promoting reckless, irresponsible, non-artist. SM (00:58:49): The Berrigan brothers. TG (00:58:52): I have respect for them. Holy serious, old, talented. Dan, there I knew. Very talented poet. They were good spirits. SM (00:59:07): Martin Luther King Jr. Make sure I get this there. TG (00:59:31): He is one of the great men. Great figure who Patty Riff might have done as well one of those. SM (00:59:31): Malcolm X. TG (00:59:31): Good to know about Malcolm X. I do not join in the worships that is so common today. I think he is a legend man, a self-created man. [inaudible] fast when he was killed. Rather primitive, I mean beliefs. I mean, let us recall that to be a black Muslim minister, meant to believe that the white race had been converted by a scientist Yakub [inaudible] world. But he did have the strength to recognize that when he brings that he had been committed to a fundamental racist view of the world. When he made a position for powerful position strip himself of the protections and comforts of that view, a set of wrong views, long views and oh wait, he was killed for it. I think most of his great, most of his great potential will not be known. We do not know who he would have been. SM (01:00:43): Dr. Benjamin Scott. TG (01:00:54): I think he was brave. I think he was a principal person who was moral and came to the board when was needed at some risk to his [inaudible]. SM (01:01:09): Pretty close to being down here. A little bit more on this side. A little bit more on this tape. Muhammad Ali. TG (01:01:18): I respect his political principles. I heard he was an immature, great boxer who became a... SM (01:01:34): Who others? Ralph Nader. TG (01:01:41): Pretty impressive, very American style crusader. The individual and of course had a huge impact, had a great ability to attack. Very skilled and devoted author. Many who went on to do... In later years, he has been like so many people coming out of (19)60s lost in the co-campaign. He ran- SM (01:02:09): With the Green Party, I believe. TG (01:02:12): Well, but he did not run. I mean, it was all right to take a Green nomination and run and raise issues that the Republicans and Democrats were having. He keep that apology, but he did not really run. He ran half-baked campaign. He should have raised money. If you are going to do that, you raise money, you go out and talk to the maximum number of people. You do not run a stealth again. That is childhood. That is the McCarthy sin. SM (01:02:33): Spiro Agnew. TG (01:03:03): Mediocre politician. This corrupt character with his politics is bad, man. SM (01:03:04): About Barry Goldwater. TG (01:03:12): Interesting figure. I take it a man of principle. Its rights. He [inaudible] as well in history. Partly because he has had the scope and the depth of character to be willing to change his mind on certain matters. Partly because he is willing, because he does not seem to be a party man. He seems to be willing to speak his mind. He is the heroic figure of the Republican Party. He made it possible for them to produce Ronald Reagan. There is no Ronald Reagan without Barry Goldwater. So in that sense, I think, I mean you are of the wrong direction, but certainly a very important figure. SM (01:03:52): Senator Fulbright, your thoughts on him? TG (01:03:55): I respected Fulbright. I am anxious for my case on the war. But he was the earliest among the late comers on race, he was witness alleged good for a southern white democratic politician. [inaudible] of substance. SM (01:04:20): Senator Muskie. TG (01:04:23): I do not think much of that Muskie one way or the other. [inaudible] Fulbright, he was quiet New England politician. I do not think he is a major figure in that history. SM (01:04:37): For the women of that period, the Women's Movement. Gloria Steinem, Bella Abzug, the Shirley Chisholm, the woman that read the forefront of the Women's Movement. TG (01:04:45): I love the... SM (01:04:45): The great Gloria Stein, you mean. Betty Friedan. TG (01:04:49): The greatest of them is none of those. It is Betty Friedan. Betty Friedan is one who deserves credit. She was a very smart woman, wrote a very fine book, created a movement. There is very few individuals who are properly credited with kick-starting the movie. She has had largely thoughts for herself and been willing to make enemies, which is important in politics. Featured figures in the second half 20th century. Gloria Steinem, I never thought much about. I considered her actually interesting. I cannot really speak to her influence. I mean, I know she had some. It is hard for me to... I see her as a light person. Bella Abzug. She comes into her own in the (19)70s. I do not see her as belonging. I think she is... What happened, same thing for Shirley Chisholm. Less reports, but neither of them I think are formative. The way that Betty Friedan. SM (01:06:07): How about this thing? We have Robert McNamara. TG (01:06:17): Well, certainly during his time in office, the most destructive people I have heard in history. Since then, the man who [inaudible] chance to redeem himself. The book raises as at least as many questions as it answers. But I honor him for making effort. SM (01:06:42): Henry Kissinger. TG (01:06:44): War criminal. Maligned, I should say. Maligned force. SM (01:06:51): I want your commentary here because when you look at the two, when you compare Kissinger and McNamara? There seems to be even among Vietnam veterans, a tremendous hatred for McNamara obviously. And even the book in retrospect was even in upset most of the veterans. TG (01:07:08): I wrote a very critical piece on it. I mean, I am not a fan of the book, but do not get me wrong. SM (01:07:14): It does not seem to be the dislike or Kissinger as much as there is for McNamara. And in realizing that at the end of 1969- TG (01:07:21): There is a lot or someone who do not know. SM (01:07:21): ...28,000 Americans still died under the President Nixon. TG (01:07:27): Right. And plenty more Vietnamese on it. SM (01:07:29): Right. TG (01:07:29): They do not know. They do not know. Henry Kissinger is a much smoother player with a much more ingratiating to the press. A much worse figure in my life. SM (01:07:42): How about President Eisenhower? TG (01:07:45): Well, with respect to what? SM (01:07:47): Just these are names that are in boomers’ lives as a president, as a figure. TG (01:07:54): Oh, at the time he seemed, what if this may strike you a strange word, silly. The President, in retrospect as a figure, as a Cold War figure, not bad. Just in general, he was not so easily intimidated. And as Kennedy intimidated into reckless conduct. But a very limited man, very limited. SM (01:08:35): Music of the era. When you look at the music of the late (19)60s, early (19)70s, you personally, who were your favorite artists? TG (01:08:44): Starring when? SM (01:08:45): Actually, we are talking about the late (19)60s through the early (19)70s. TG (01:08:49): Well, when you say late (19)60s. When do you want me to start? SM (01:08:54): Probably around the time the Beatles came over in (19)64. Okay. That year. How music changed from (19)64 on. Because prior to that it was certainly a lot different. Rock and roll was already here. But certainly the Beatles changed things. And the folk singers. And how important, not only your thoughts on the music of the year, how important it was to the young people and especially with the messages that it portrayed and your personal favorites and why. TG (01:09:18): Okay. My personal favorites. Dylan, Joan Baez, Judy Collins, Leonard Cohen, Otis Redding. [inaudible] to who. Would be therein. That would be about. That is my list. That is my brother, too. SM (01:09:37): In the movement? What part did they play on in the movement? How- TG (01:09:44): In the political movement? SM (01:09:45): Yeah. How important was for that movement? TG (01:09:48): The only ones who were important in the political movement are Dylan and Joan Baez. SM (01:09:53): Any people in the movement can of just listen to the words they were capturing the time. TG (01:09:57): Just listen to the words now. SM (01:09:58): No. I met them on the music, but the music and the words. But... TG (01:10:01): Oh, yeah. SM (01:10:02): They kind of have sense of excitement and they had some passion. Phil Ochs was on that category too, was not he? TG (01:10:09): Yes, sir. SM (01:10:10): But was a figure. Yeah. Couple more names and we will be done. Woodward and Bernstein. Thoughts on that? TG (01:10:26): Reporters. Credit for what they did. They did real reporting and they were bold and they were right. So very important. SM (01:10:34): Richard Daley. TG (01:10:37): Nice. For the... SM (01:10:37): For mayors. What is very important? TG (01:10:42): Daley was rhetoric. Very, very limited man. Boss. SM (01:10:57): Okay, so then Daniel Ellsberg. TG (01:11:03): Ellsberg was an authentic hero. Okay. After many substitutes he did a very bold thing. And what he did had an impact. Personally courageous. Ellsberg year is a much more [inaudible] than... SM (01:11:25): Gandhi. TG (01:11:25): The first whistleblower. SM (01:11:33): I mean, first. I mean there were others in the past, but in other words, that is the first one I remember. TG (01:11:35): [inaudible] SM (01:11:44): He kind of, I asked right, was in the next [inaudible]. About the people around Richard Dixon is John Mitchell, Ehrlichman, Haldeman in that group. TG (01:11:49): Thugs. SM (01:11:52): Vietnam veterans yesterday told them Gestapo. TG (01:11:53): Well, I think that is silly. They are not Nazis. But these are very small people. SM (01:12:08): Again, the reason why I bring these names up, these are names that came of prominence during the... Actually the ones in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, the names stand. And the last one I have is Sam Ervin. The old gentleman there who ran the... TG (01:12:22): Sam Ervin represents the best of American Constitutionalism. [inaudible] way. SM (01:12:27): Are there any figures that have not been mentioned that you think should be mentioned when you can look at, I want to say I got the people that stand out of that era. Is there one that is missing that I have not... I know for example, I could have said all the big four of the Civil Rights Movement. Roy Wilkins and Whitney Young and James Farmer. I could have included that, but I am trying to... TG (01:12:48): I think very well of them. I especially I think well of Farmer. I think Farmer is a great man. Who has fully understood. Farmer's instincts were brilliant and he has a long history that most people are aware of [inaudible] on or something. I understand he is quite ill and in bad shaped. I know there was a bit of some hope to get him a congressional medal of honor, but has not happened. SM (01:13:20): On several years back that picked him up at the Wilmington train station. He was blind. TG (01:13:25): Yeah. SM (01:13:26): But he was okay every other way. The mental capabilities were strong. And we put him up with the holiday in and gave a great speech. Tremendous. He had not lost any... The vigor that was in his voice. The strength was still there. The passion. TG (01:13:40): I am glad to hear it. He was a great speaker. I can hear him speech. SM (01:13:44): We have that on tape, too. And I will never forget this, Doctor... When I took him to train station, I asked him as, "Are there any words of advice that you could give me in terms of my everyday work here in relationship with the university?" And I bring in speakers and all he... Because I had spent a day with him and I expected him to give me a long... Well, this is what you should do and that should do because we are killing time waiting for the train. And he said some two words, "Carry on." And as a result of that, in all my letters, and I will probably send it to you too, the grand of my letters, I always say carry on. Because I really admire what people do and how they live their lives. And those are the greatest two words that anybody can feel in that is to carry on, especially when working for others and caring for others. So it is one of those anecdotes, it is one of my metaphors, it is part of my metaphor. I am basically done. Are there any thoughts that you would to conclude here, that you would like to say regarding that group of young people in that era, in American history? That even though to us, it does not seems like only yesterday, but here it is, 1997 and to young people, it is like a century era. Any other final thoughts? TG (01:15:09): Well you are asking the guy written, depending on how you want to calculate it, three books about the (19)60s. Do I have any more to say? Lots of articles. Give a lot of talks. No. I do not know any more else. SM (01:15:27): I want to thank you for taking time out of your schedule. Really appreciate it. TG (01:15:29): [inaudible] SM (01:15:29): Do you mind if I take some pictures? (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Todd Gitlin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gitlin, Todd ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Sociologists; Authors, American--20th century; College teachers; Columbia University; Gitlin, Todd--Interviews Description An account of the resource <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dr. Todd Gitlin is a sociologist, educator, political writer, novelist, cultural commentator, and author of sixteen books. He wrote about mass media, politics, intellectual life and the arts, for both popular and scholarly publications. He currenlty is a professor of Journalism and Sociology and chair of the Ph. D. program in Communications at Columbia University. He received his Bachelor's degree in Mathematics from Harvard College and earned his Mater's degree from the University of Michigan in Political Science, and his Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley in Sociology."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Dr. Todd Gitlin (1943-2022) was a sociologist, educator, political writer, novelist, cultural commentator, and author of sixteen books. He wrote about mass media, politics, intellectual life and the arts, for both popular and scholarly publications. He was a professor of Journalism and Sociology and chair of the Ph. D. program in Communications at Columbia University. He received his Bachelor's degree in Mathematics from Harvard College and earned his Master's degree from the University of Michigan in Political Science, and his Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley in Sociology.</span> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-07-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.192a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.192b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 75:34 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1268f1e5cac376ef2c72e7244e0b34c0.jpg 8a20a3d68e01509e829bdef1a2e7c0eb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/fa631efedf8af02f17eff97e12e9f8a9.mp3 e92cb22f082e991fe61d85fd1a44532e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11-20 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed David J. Garrow, 1953- Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Born in New Bedford, Massachusetts, Dr. David Garrow is a historian, educator, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, a Professor of Law & History, and Distinguished Faculty Scholar at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. He was the senior advisor for the TV show Eyes on The Prize and a senior research fellow at Homerton College in Cambridge, M.A. He is a regular contributor to the Washington Post, New York Times, and The American Prospect. Garrow graduated magna cum laude from Wesleyan University and then received his Ph.D. from Duke University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Born in New Bedford, Massachusetts, Dr. David Garrow is a historian, educator, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, a Professor of Law & History, and Distinguished Faculty Scholar at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. He was the senior advisor for the TV show <em>Eyes on The Prize</em> and a senior research fellow at Homerton College in Cambridge, M.A. He is a regular contributor to the <em>Washington Post</em>, <em>New York Times</em>, and <em>The American Prospect</em>. Garrow graduated magna cum laude from Wesleyan University and then received his Ph.D. from Duke University.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Baby boom generation; LGBT rights; Black Panthers; Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.; SNCC; Democratic Convention of 1964; Vietnam; Black power movement; Malcolm X; March on Selma; Montgomery March."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Baby boom generation; LGBT rights; Black Panthers; Assassination of Robert F. Kennedy, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.; SNCC; Democratic Convention of 1964; Vietnam; Black power movement; Malcolm X; March on Selma; Montgomery March.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 126:59 Subject LCSH Historians; Authors, American--20th century; College teachers;University of Pittsburgh. School of Law; Garrow, David J., 1953--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: David Garrow Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 20 November 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) DG (00:00:04): So, my memory now of the different emails and... SM (00:00:07): I have to check these out every so often. Make sure they are [inaudible]. DG (00:00:10): You run them both on the same thing. SM (00:00:11): Yeah. DG (00:00:11): Yeah, we are on exactly the same thing. SM (00:00:11): Yeah. Well the first hundred I did not, and then Charlie Hardy from the history department told me, "Steve, are you getting two tapes?" Because I have had situations where I damage the tape. And then you have got the backup. And I get them on CD's as fast as possible. And then whatever happens to these tapes, end up at the university or whatever and the CD will be there forever. DG (00:00:36): So, okay. Just the one thought I have had in the back of my mind, looking forward to when we were going to get together. I, for whatever reason, have always been deeply, deeply uncomfortable with any and every invocation of boomer generation as a phrase. Now, for some reason I just really dislike the word boomer. SM (00:01:01): You are not the first that is said that. DG (00:01:01): Okay. Now I do not know. And I am not opposed to periodization or generationalism or eras. So, my problem is not with the concept. My problem is with the word. And it may be that my deep dislike for Bill Clinton is what explains this. Because at least in the journalism of the 1990s, Clinton was presented as the personification of the boomer generation. SM (00:01:39): Yes. DG (00:01:45): Now I gave up on Bill Clinton when he mucked over Lani Guinier in about May or June of 1993. And I sort of wrote him off as any political figure, I was interested in [inaudible 00:02:05]. Well this may be completely my sort of anti-Clintonism being transferred to something that is guilt by association with Bill Clinton. SM (00:02:15): What is interesting is that many people have told me they hate the term. Todd Gitlin actually in my interview said, "If you mentioned the word one more time I am going to stop the interview." There has been some issues. One of the main issues is that people that were born between say (19)39 and (19)45 are closer to the boomers, the frontline, the first 10 years. DG (00:02:37): Todd is a good bit older. SM (00:02:39): Well Todd I think is 42, I interviewed him a long time ago. But Tom Hayden and basically all the leaders of the movement were mostly born between (19)40 and (19)45. And when I was in graduate school, I can remember being taught in class at Ohio State that the majority of the militants were the older people, were the ones that were leading the movement even in (19)70. And they were born before (19)46. For me being born in (19)53. Now I have great respect for Todd, though I do not know him personally at all. I do know Tom Hayden, have known Tom Hayden some personally. DG (00:03:20): But they must have football. SM (00:03:23): Yeah, a football game day. DG (00:03:24): Wow. Oh my god. I do not think Tom Hayden is here from the same generation. I mean I do not exactly know how much older than I am Tom is. SM (00:03:39): Tom is 10 years older. I think he was born in (19)42. DG (00:03:44): I think we may want to wait until the percussion session... SM (00:03:45): Yeah, let me go over, turn it off. DG (00:03:54): And start meeting people as a scholar. I first start meeting people 179, 19 80. So, I am 26 at that time. And whether it is Bayard Rustin, whether it is Mike Harrington, whether it is somebody like Tom Hayden. Bayard is certainly more than a generation older than me. But being 26 at that time, both these are good examples to use, because they are so far apart in age. Being 26 at that time, both Bayard and Tom seemed so much older than I am that they seemed to be more from the same generation. The linkage between the two of them seems to be inherently closer than any possible linkage of say, me to Tom. Now, even the youngest of the SNCC people, say someone who is 17, 18 in say 1964 even, not the first generation of SNCC people in here. I am using generation in a four-year increment. But say even someone who was active in SNCC at age 18 in 1964 is still born in (19)46. So inherently for me, in my Civil Rights movement phase, all of those people seem measurably older than I am. Because to someone who is 26, 27, seven years seems significant. Now that I am 57, seven years does not seem very significant at all. So, I think a lot of my ways of looking at people and thinking about generations and thinking about age is the artifact of how sort of unusually young I was when I first got in the interviewing trenches. SM (00:06:03): Yeah, you raised a good point because you kind of are close to that second half of the boomer generation, which had totally different experiences than the first half. So, for them it is like the older brother and the younger brother. And we had many cases of that. And I think part of the process of doing this book, I have learned so much that you cannot put things into nice packages that there is what I call a spirit. There was a spirit that really crossed, was a part of the front-runners of the generation that were linked to some people that were older, maybe members of the silent generation or those born in World War II. That had similar experiences. And that is what Tom Hayden said. Tom does not like the term boomer. Two questions for you. Up through when does your application of the term run? What is your what is the [inaudible] year? DG (00:06:59): Because I am a higher ed person and all my degrees are in higher ed, higher education looks at the boomer generation as those born between (19)46 and (19)64. And then we get into the generation Xer's, which is 65 to about (19)81, (19)82, there is a little discrepancy there. Just two things then, now given what I am now doing with Barack, Barack was born in (19)61, and all the people I am now interviewing in terms of his contemporaries are either his age, or say in terms of his Harvard classmates, since Barack takes essentially five years off, (19)83 to (19)88 before law school. So, a lot of Barack classmates are five years younger than he is in terms of the people I go interview for this. Now, it is interesting when I interview someone who is born in 1966, entering Harvard Law School of 1988, and they are 13 years younger than me. And I am quite aware that they are younger than me, they do not quite feel like they are from a different generation in the sense that my graduate students are, or my wife's graduate students whom we know. So, I think of some of the PhD's, new PhD's, recent PhD's we know at Cambridge. I am just going to say the names that I think about people like Lee and Julia. They are going to be 30 now roughly, maybe early thirties. So that means they are born 1980. Now they are a generation younger than me in a way that somebody born (19)66 is not so clearly. And then the other thing I was going to say to a Civil Rights historian like me, (19)45, (19)46 looms big, because of how totally different the local world, particularly in the South is, once you have got African American military veterans coming back. When the war ends, (19)45, (19)46, Amzie Moore, Medgar Evers, folks like that. So, my predisposition in terms of how I would periodize things is to draw a line some place in (19)45. And then probably, I guess I would begin in (19)46 because if somebody gets home from the war sometime summer of (19)45, fall of (19)45, the first children of the war are born in (19)46. One my first conscious memories, and I may just be slow and not very good, and I certainly have more reasons than most people to have blocked out good chunks, large chunks, huge chunks of my early childhood. My earliest substantive memories are the Kennedy assassination and the Kennedy funeral, which I saw in person. So, for me, I have vague recollections of my father kvetching about traffic problems because of the march on Washington. So that is three months earlier. So, my first political news memories are from being 10 years old. Now, let me say one other thing, and this is really, really central. And if there is anything profound, I have to say, I think this is profound. And I have been aware of this for going on 30 years and I still cannot wrap my little brain around it. Martin Luther King, the whole ambition of King's public life, takes place in less than 13 years. From late (19)55 to early (19)68. Now, when I started out in (19)79, (19)80, at age 26, age 27, the 13 years from (19)55 to (19)68, 13 years seems like a long time. A really long time. Now here is the crux of my problem. I have now been doing this for, depending on where I put the start point, at least 32 years from when Protest at Selma was published. SM (00:12:16): Yes, I have that. DG (00:12:16): Or in terms of when I started, I started my first day of work on what became Protest at Selma was June 1st, (19)74, which I remember quite clearly because it is when I began work on the senior thesis that ended up as Protest at Selma. Now the notion that I have been doing more or less the same thing, permutations of the same thing for 32 to 36 years. I have very clear memories of, I can picture... One of the weird things with my memory is that I cannot tell you a lot of things about my personal life or things that I did or girlfriends or going to meet, did I speak at a conference? When did I last speak in Louisville? When did I last speak at Princeton? Things about my personal life, personal experiences, none of that sticks. But I can picture almost without exception, virtually every person I have ever interviewed and can picture the room, the scene. SM (00:13:33): So, can I. DG (00:13:34): 1979 forward. SM (00:13:35): Oh, wow. That is really a good story. DG (00:13:38): But it is profoundly weird to me that I have been a historian for 32 plus years. And my 32 plus years does not seem very long to me. Whereas King's public life was only 13 years. I cannot wrap... This is about the limits of my ability to be articulate about this. But in making the answer very simple is that the black freedom struggle of that period happened very, very quickly, very, very intensively. And let me do a further extension or parallel of that. Up until (19)65, when Griswold comes down, and indeed really into (19)66, (19)67, this is just parroting from Liberty and Sexuality, nobody with two or three real, real outlier exceptions, no one has ever thought, ever had the idea of a constitutional right to abortion. Now within the space of six years, never mind 13 with King, within the space of literally six years, and then January (19)73, it is actually more like five. Within the space of five years this, being the idea of a constitutional right to abortion, goes from being non-existent to being the law of the land. That at least initially the relatively non-controversial law of land. So, the speed with which Roe v Wade comes to pass is mind-boggling, even compared to the speed of the black freedom struggle. Now lastly, look at where we are today, where we have been the last 6, 9, 10 years with gay equality, gay marriage. No societal change in my lifetime comes anywhere imaginably close in magnitude and scale and depth to how the status of gay people has changed in American society from when I was in high school until the present day. I have a reasonably clear memory of first realizing that there was such a thing as a gay person in I think maybe my junior or senior year of college at Wesleyan, which should be like 1973. Now that is pretty slow, pretty late. Was I aware that Stonewall had happened? I read the New York Times when I was in high school, so I must have read about this. But I did not have the personal awareness, certainly I had no awareness when I was in high school in Greenwich up through (19)71, there was such a thing as gay people. And I cannot remember who it was at Wesleyan, and I do not know the gay historiography, gay identity theory quite well enough to do this competently. But there is, I think no question as a historical matter, as a legal matter, that the speed and degree of progression with gay social acceptance, gay legal rights is directly concomitant to the public visibility of gay people. Because the more visible, I would argue, the more non-gay people become aware of fundamental similarity, fundamental equality. But needless to say, there is no one who is more totally pro-gay marriage than I am. But I view the speed with which gay people have moved from being either non-present or actively widely harassed, humiliated, discriminated against. I view the speed with which this has happened as just remarkable. So, on all of these things, whether it is the black freedom struggle, 13 years, whether it is right to abortion, five or six years, whether it is gay equality, the last, however, we would put a beginning point on that sometime, whether Stonewall or later. I think the speed of change over the course of my lifetime on the things I care about has been just remarkable. SM (00:19:41): Well those, they are beautiful insights. Because when I was a graduate student at Ohio State, and I believe the spring of (19)71, Dr. Johnson, our advisor, we were talking about the war. In fact, it was a legal aspect in higher ed class. At the very end of the class, he asked all the men to stay after, and well, we were going back to study and whatever. It is in the middle of the winter. And he said, "I want you guys to meet Dr. Allen Hurst." DG (00:20:05): I recognize that name. SM (00:20:07): And we are talking about the war in Vietnam, our whole theory, we were talking about Civil Rights and you were talking about women's issues, whether police can come on campus. We are dealing with a lot of legal issues here. And he says, "I want to introduce to you the guy who is going to get the first PhD in gay history, Amal Hurst from the University of Minnesota." I think he was at Minnesota, and we were looking at each other. First off, we were black and white, no Asians, but black and white. And we were in this room, we all looked at each other, none of us knew hardly anything, we knew nothing about gay people. And we did not even know that there were gay people. And we are talking about African American and white males, who are liberal and pretty well-educated. And so, we did not understand why Dr. Johnson did this, because Phil Tripp was another person that asked Dr. Johnson to introduce them. And he just wanted to make us aware that there is another group that is being discriminated against in our society. And you are going to be dealing with this issue down the road if you are going to have a career in higher ed. DG (00:21:14): Right. SM (00:21:17): And he talked, and Pat comes over. He said, "Was not that strange?" We did not dislike the man. He was brilliant when he talked. And obviously he was a front runner. DG (00:21:24): Right-right. SM (00:21:27): But the fact that here we are dealing with the issues of black and white, male and female, war and peace. And here we are talking about gay rights in 1971. DG (00:21:37): Right now, let me take a pause. Just me to get more coffee. Because given my... Given what you are doing, be sure to look, need to think about the date on it, it is going to be April or May of 2000. So, look on the 2000 menu. And it is a long newspaper piece that I had in the Atlanta Journal constitution discussing the experience of the 40th reunion of SNCC, and the sort of implicit tensions between the ways in which the participant alumni wanted to remember the SNCC experience. Versus what we historians believe we know about the SNCC experience. And my sort of gentle polite point is that, and this reflects a broader belief I have, is that people remember happy experiences much better, much more clearly than they remember negative or unpleasant experiences. That people retain what is happy and pleasing and reassuring and discard that which is troubling and unpleasant. And I first realized that principle, not sure it is correct it is a principle, early on when I was interviewing people who had been in Montgomery (19)55, the (19)59, (19)60 doc's time in Montgomery. And I started to realize that virtually without exception, everybody had very clear, sometimes detailed, memories of the year of the boycott, December (19)55 to December (19)56. But the vast majority of them had very little memory about what happens in Montgomery and what happens with the Montgomery Improvement Association 1957 to 1959. Because there is just a lot of internal tensions and disagreements, and some people are sour about all the attention that is gone to Dr. King. And some people are sour that Mrs. Parks has been sort of forgotten and ignored. But very few people in black Montgomery could sort of narrate their way across the calendar of (19)57, (19)58, (19)59, yet virtually everyone could narrate their way from January to March to June to November of 1956. So, you run into this probably just as much as I do, interviewing hundreds and hundreds of people, whether it is for King, for Roe vs Wade, for Barack Obama. The variegation of human memory, the selectivity of human memory, the way in which human memory moves things around across time and gets chronology bodged up, is fascinating to me. And I deal with it. And in the present context, I deal with it all the time with Obama, especially in the 1980s. Which is the heart of it, the Barack Obama circle, at least in some ways. But so, I have become acutely conscious of the importance of getting sort of it documented, where was Barack at different times in the calendar 1984 or the calendar 1985. So that when I hear different people's memories, I saw Barack in LA or Barack went to this conference in Cambridge, Massachusetts. SM (00:26:06): They do not have any... DG (00:26:14): So that I have got a sort of calendar skeleton to which I can try to attach the memories in some sort of jigsaw puzzle type of way. Because I think I have always thought right back the Selma book, I sort of organize everything I know in chronological fashion. Every set of note cards, every set of three by five cards. Now this 1900-page, single space Obama notes file that I [inaudible]. Everything is organized chronologically, it is the way I understand the world. And maybe I wonder if sometimes I sound an excessively peavey or tiresome interviewer, because I always try to get people to do it chronologically. I sat with someone last Tuesday who has a collection of Barack letters, and we walked our way through them, sort of reading them out loud in order. But I was very pleased that that person had the same orientation I do. The only way to think about the letters is to think about them in chronological order. SM (00:27:37): Well, the question I wanted to ask you is kind of that way, because I was very sensitive, even as a young person in college when I saw that picture of Stokely Carmichael next to Dr. King. And Dr. King has kind of got his arms and... That body language with Dr. King. And then we had James Farmer on the campus, so he talked about Dr. King in meetings. It was a tremendous session. I really liked them. But the question I am getting at here is, in 1954, Brown vs Board of Education was passed. And of course, that was historic. However, when we had Jack Greenberg on campus who worked with Thurgood Marshall and going through the South and all the things that they had to go through, Dr. King was the next phase. And I can remember he really appreciated that there was a past, however, I want now. Right. Dr. King said, Thurgood Marshall has a more gradualist approach. We are going to be non-violent protest, and when we want it now, then you get the time. And Dr. King's only 36, 37 years old. You have got Stokely Carmichael talking to him, out of respect, and said, "Your time is past." Then you have a few years earlier, the debate with Malcolm X and Bayard Rustin, basically the chain... See, what you are seeing is the seemingly older generation was really in the late thirties and early forties being challenged by the late twenties and thirties. And then of course the Black Panthers. The question I am asking you is just your thoughts about young people challenging the system. The question that comes up over and over again is the Civil Rights movement was predominantly, there were not very many boomers inbound of the Civil Rights movement, it was in the fifties. If you are talking about the youngest boomers were going to junior high school in 1959 and (19)60. So how could they really be involved in the Civil Rights movement, except those early students that went on Freedom Summer and they had to be a little bit older. Your thoughts on Boomer participation in the Civil Rights movement, how important were they both black and white? And secondly, your thoughts on this seeming ongoing chronological evolution of the movement by people saying "Your time is past." Yeah. DG (00:30:14): Docs born in (19)29. Most of the other ministers are a little bit older than Doc, or somebody like Fred Shuttlesworth were measurably older. So the ministers, the adult leadership of the movement. I do not know off the top of my head what year Jim Farmer is born in. God, I say his name, I hear that voice. Best voice ever. SM (00:30:34): Oh yeah. DG (00:30:34): So, King is essentially 26 at the time of Montgomery, which certainly seems young to any of us in retrospect. When SNCC gets going in 1960, I do not know precisely what year. Bob Moses is a little bit or older, because Bob's been out, what, three years maybe got a master's degree, he was teaching. So Bob is a little bit older. Jim Forman is probably a little bit older than Bob. Because Jim was, I think, off the top of my head, find out how much older Jim Forman is than John than say Julian Bond. And it is going to be on the order of 10 years, maybe a little more. So, with a few exceptions, for like Jim and to a lesser degree, Bob, most of the people in SNCC are essentially 22, 21 years old in (19)60, (19)61. So, they were born sort of (19)38, (19)39, (19)40. They were 10 years younger than Doc. Now, there was no doubt whatsoever in the context of (19)60 to (19)65, (19)66, that 10-year gap between King and the members of SNCC. Is 10 years a generation? Boy is 10 years a generation. There is no doubt about that. And the younger people who are tied to Doc and SCLC, Bernard Lee, first and foremost. Now Bernard had been in the military. Bernard like Bob Moses may be a little bit older. Well, did Bernard ever graduate from Alabama State? If so, what year? Bernard's, I am not sure. But if you look at the photos of Bernard with Docketing, Bernard is dressing like King and Abernathy and Andy Young. And so, he is sort of acting older than the SNCC people. Now, to my mind, the geographical distinction within SNCC is probably the most important because you have got people like Stokely and Bill Mahoney, people that have gone to Howard and Washington. People whose experience was not simply the South, or not simply the rural south. SM (00:33:30): And Cortland Cox was not ignorant. DG (00:33:32): Yes, exactly. SM (00:33:33): And E Carolyn Brown, who was H Rap Brown's brother. They were both students at Howard. DG (00:33:37): Okay. Now there is another Brown brother whom I know from Brooklyn. SM (00:33:47): We had E Carolyn Brown, we had both of them at our campus and we did a tribute to Bayard Rustin. We did a national tribute to Rustin. DG (00:33:53): Yes-yes, yes. SM (00:33:54): And we had Norman Hill, Rochelle Horowitz- DG (00:33:57): Oh, I love Rochelle. SM (00:33:58): ... And Walter Nagle, Cortland Cox, E Carolyn Brown. Ernie Green came up and spoke, and John Lewis opened the conference. DG (00:34:09): How many years ago was this? SM (00:34:12): Probably we did that conference in (19)99, 2000. John Damilia was the only one that we wanted there that had a bad back and could not make it. And Dr. Levine from Bowdoin College, the historian. DG (00:34:21): Yeah, I am afraid that is not a book I like. SM (00:34:28): Yeah. And then also VP Franklin, we had him there. So, it was a really good conference. And by the way, those tapes are all in the library [inaudible] They were all there. DG (00:34:40): Oh, great. No, I adored Bayard. I saw a lot of Bayard, (19)84 to (19)87 in New York. Because he died what, August of (19)87? I remember we had dinner with him and Walter. I cannot remember where it was. Sometime early that summer, maybe circa June.... right? Sometime early that summer, maybe circa June. This is another weird thing about being a historian. I remember about three, four, five years ago now, picking up ... I certainly did not buy it, but I might have picked it up in a bookstore, I picked it up in the library, there was a somewhat memoir-ish book that Ron Radosh, a historian who started out as a sort of young communist, and then wrote a very good book on the Rosenbergs, and then became a sort of very, very self-identified, very conservative. And Ron had some account in there of a conversation he had with Bayard at a party at the home of myself and the woman I was then living with, Susan, in West Harlem. This would have been probably in (19)85. I have the exact date of the party someplace. And Radosh had the year of the party off by at least two years. I am doing this from memory, we are on tape. I do not want to be unfair. He might have had it off by four years. And I remember thinking, this was weird to me, both because I was not quite prepared for seeing parties I have thrown making it into the history books. And then I was, at best, bemused by the fact that a professional historian could get the date of something from a relatively recent time period so wrong. Then, about two or three years ago, I was completely freaked when someone said to me, a good nine, 10 months after it came out, I know, it is [inaudible] Don Critchlow, who's a conservative Catholic social historian, Don Critchlow emailed me, and said, "Are you aware of what is in Arthur Schlesinger's diaries about you?" I was completely unaware. SM (00:37:08): About you? DG (00:37:09): Yep. And it turned out that someplace in Arthur's diaries, and I have got to think about the date. What was the date of this? Sometime in the early (19)80s. Could be 1980. The first time I met Arthur, I think he invited me to lunch at the Century Club, old and fancy thing, on 43rd or 44th Street, Midtown. Arthur had been acquainted with Stan Levison. Arthur had published his RFK book by that point, talking about RFK signing off on the wire-tapping, and RFK being briefed about King's sex life, and all this. And so, Arthur and I discussed this thing. Discussed family, and certainly discussed some aspects of King's private life over lunch. And lo and behold, there in Arthur's diaries is a perfectly accurate recounting of our lunch conversation. And I was very fortunate. I was quite happy that none of the people that reviewed the book decided that this conversation about King's private life in the diaries merited comment in the newspapers. But again, I mention both of these, because I think of myself very much, and boy, am I conscious about this now in the Obama context. I think of myself as purely a historian. I have no desire to be at ... The last thing I want to do is have anything to do with the 2012 election. So, I find it sort of weird that I am turning up as a character, however minor and brief, I find it sort of weird that I am turning up as a character in the historical record, rather than simply being a third-party chronicler of it, if I am saying this with any clarity. SM (00:39:08): I ended up getting to know Mrs. King's sister, who taught at... DG (00:39:12): Oh, Edith. SM (00:39:12): Edith. DG (00:39:13): Oh, wow. SM (00:39:16): She liked me, and we tried to get her to come, but she was pretty ill, and I have lost touch with her since I left the university. But one time, I asked her, "What did you think of the books written on Dr. King?" And I mentioned your name, Taylor Branch. And she did not like any of them, because of the fact, I think it is because they dealt with the sex life of Dr. King. DG (00:39:37): Right-right. SM (00:39:40): So, probably just does not know the whole history of the ... She just read the books. DG (00:39:44): [inaudible] I mean, I am super conscious of this. And I am firmly comfortable saying this on tape. And this is arguably the most important ethical decision I have ever made in my life. And it was a decision I made in 1979, and it remains an active, live decision today, 31 years later. I first met the woman whom a number of us King scholars referred to privately as the real wife in 1979. And I saw her any number of times back in the eighties. I have not been in active touch with her for some years, though I know Clay Carson has been in very active touch. I will peacefully say that I do not think ... There are certainly some people, or there is certainly one person who has written a lot on Dr. King, who has no clue about who this person really is, and has gotten it wrong in print, and I have politely sort of indicated that. But leaving that one exception aside, there are a good number of us in the world of King scholars, it is true of me, it is true of Clay, it is true of Jim Cone. We have known this lady, and she knows us. She knows we know, we know she knows we know, for 30 years. And I have always thought that so long as she is alive, it is entirely her decision as to whether she wants to publicly acknowledge the relationship. SM (00:41:27): Right. Yeah. DG (00:41:27): Now, I know Clay has said to her, probably more than once, and this is not an exact quote he was to say, that sooner rather than later, she would sit down with a tape recorder, and make some tapes, and put them in an envelope, and wrap it up, and put whatever future date she wants on that envelope. And that is my belief, too. So certainly, I mean, Taylor did not know what he was doing on this. But all the rest of us, we made a conscious decision that I think this is still right, I still believe it, that we could give an honest portrayal of what was going on in King's life, without having to out her. We have been incomplete, but I do not think it has been, in any way, misleading. And I think the balance of interests has played out correctly. Now, 2020, coming up on 25 years later, that is not the world we live in now. So, there is a little bit of an artifact there. SM (00:42:41): When you talk about Dr. King, because he is such an important figure in the lives of boomers, I do not care, you had to be in a cave not to be affected by him if you are a member of the generation. What was Thurgood Marshall's thoughts on Dr. King's commentary, that he appreciated the gradualist approach, and the passage of the law, but we are going to do it a different way. We are going to [inaudible]. What did Thurgood Marshall think of Dr. King, and vice versa? And secondly, when Dr. King had those kinds of challenging comments given to him by Stokely Carmichael, what was the relationship between those two men? I have a sense. Because here was a man of stature, and he knew who he was, but he could take it like, he could take his part, because you have got to be a thick skin to be in the position there. But, to me, those are very important. A lot of people portray Stokely as this Black Panther that is got ... but he was a smart guy. DG (00:43:41): Yes-yes, yes-yes. Yeah. SM (00:43:41): So, talk about Martin Luther King and Stokely. DG (00:43:41): Sure-sure. Sure. Yeah. Let me [inaudible]. Let me grab a book. Hold on. I just want to grab a book. SM (00:43:52): Because these are all important things. And my interviews, again, are oral histories, based on not only about the times that people lived, but the interesting and historic facts within those times, that are part of boomer lives. And of course, I am caught up in this boomer, I am actually not seeing it that much anymore. DG (00:44:16): Okay. There is no doubt that for King, that both Thurgood Marshall and Roy Wilkins seemed a generation older to him than he is. Now, both Marshall and Wilkins, as I am sure you realize, and the Marshall pieces of it are memorialized in that not very good Carl Rowan book, and in the perfectly solid Juan Williams book. Marshall, for whatever combination of reasons, of both ego, and envy, and strategic disagreement, and commitment to being a lawyer, Marshall's view of King is dismissive, sarcastic, hostile, right from early 1956 forward. Now, part of it is reasonably rooted in the lawyer's perception that the NAACP LDF lawyers always have to clean up the legal mess after some protest campaign. And oftentimes get left holding some sort of financial bag. With Roy Wilkins, the envy, jealousy, hatred of King is, I think, less defensible, less explicable. It is just pure competition, that the NAACP is so self-important, and so full of itself, that it does not want a younger organizational competitor. Now, that is mirrored with Wyatt Walker's reaction to SNCC, because Wyatt has the same sort of my organization first attitude, with regard to SCLC, that especially Wilkins and Thurgood Marshall, too, had about the NAACP. Now, Doc, Dr. King, Doc does not share that, because Doc never buys into the sort of organizational ego model. And that is one of the many reasons why King is most oftentimes always a morally superior leadership figure to the whole raft of everybody else, because he is able to practice a degree of self-abnegation that is unusual. And we can say this to mean, and I say that relative, not just the Civil Rights Movement egos, but to egotistical and selfish behavior in the Pro-Choice movement, where I think it is at least as bad. Interestingly, I would argue that there has been dramatically less selfish, egotistical behavior the last 10 to 15 years, in the legal part of the Gay Rights movement. And I think that that absence of self-seeking, self-promoting behavior among Gay Rights legal advocates, has been a significant factor in why they have been so successful. Now, Stokely, then, and Stokely is a challenger. Keep in mind, Stokely is a challenger within SNCC. So, the John Lewis, [inaudible], et cetera. SM (00:47:55): Yeah. DG (00:48:06): Stokely is a challenger within SNCC, as well as a challenger to Doc. And Stokely is a very, very bright ... Stokely was a very bright, and in many, many respects, a very likable person, who unfortunately had a little bit of a sickness, the profound sickness of anti-Semitism. But Stokely did not have the degree of ego self-control that Doc did, which is why Stokely allows himself to be swung into the damaging media circus of what does Black power mean, in the way that he was in (19)66, (19)67. And Stokely is sort of like a comet passing by. I mean, there is John Lewis, then there is Stokely, then all of a sudden, you have got Rap Brown. And then I would make a fourth generational point here, just to sort of complete it. And they may technically, they are older by dint of age, but it almost seems like a subsequent generation, the sort of Oakland-based Panthers represented by Huey Newton, and Bobby Seale, et cetera, et cetera. And this is only the second thing, I would recommended it, and I will limit myself to two. If you are at all interested in Panther stuff, about two and a half years ago, I wrote a really, I think, first rate, really powerful little historiographical essay on the Panther literature, where I put in some deadly, deadly end notes dissecting bad faux scholarship. It is in Reviews in American History, I think December, 2007. So, it will be on the 2007 page on the website. I mean, the Panthers are a hugely important presence, (19)67 to the early seventies. The quality of the literature on the Panthers is horrible, just horrible. SM (00:50:27): I interviewed Roz Payne now, last week. DG (00:50:29): She is incredible. Roz Payne is a good person. SM (00:50:37): Her photography, and [inaudible] you can read any of this stuff. DG (00:50:38): Roz is ... yeah-yeah, yeah. That is great. But so much of the Panther scholarly, big quotation marks, "literature," is the worst sort of fan-ship stuff. It is like bad early communist party historiography, where the people writing about CP USA, wanted to simply celebrate the importance of communists. And CP historiography has improved measurably over the last 15 years. And I am certain Panther historiography will improve over time, once we get past the fan club devotees. But the Panther historiography is really important, because there are many positive commendable things about the Panthers. And many, many more really despicable, horrible, evil things about the Panthers. And just as I was saying earlier about human memory, and people remembering the good and forgetting the bad, oh boy, do we see that, this is not in bad taste, in spades in Panther material, because both the participants themselves and the fan-ship historians want to talk about breakfast programs, breakfast programs, breakfast programs. And not talk about the frigging thuggery where they are killing people. And I do not mean cops, I mean a variety of innocent, undeserving supporters. So, there is that sort of generational succession from Marshall to King to Stokely to Huey. That is inevitable in the same way that we get a sort of succession within the reproductive rights movement from a Katherine Hepburn senior, to an Estelle Griswold, to a Bob Hall, an Alan Guttmacher, or a Roy Lucas. SM (00:52:42): What is interesting about the Panthers, and I have been asked by people that I have interviewed that you cannot just ... it is like you said in that article about always mentioning the organizations, and the top civil rights leaders. Well, yeah, we would like to talk about Stokely Carmichael, and Huey Newton, and Bobby Seale, but there was Kathleen Cleaver, there was Eldridge Cleaver, there was H. Rap Brown, if they liked him or not. There was Fred Hampton who was killed in Chicago. There was Bobby Hutton, who was killed. There was... DG (00:53:33): It is a very mixed bag of people. I mean, Kathleen Cleaver, that group. Newton, at one point, is something of a positive figure, before he goes way downhill. I cannot be, at any time, as positive about Eldridge. I actually think that much of the best Panther activism happened away from the Oakland epicenter, in the same way that an awful lot of the best of SNCC happened away from the Atlanta epicenter. SM (00:54:04): When we talk about the anti-war movement in the (19)60s going violent, we know the SDS and the Weathermen. We know what happened there. We know what happened in the American Indian movement. There was violence at Wounded Knee. What happened at Alcatraz was fine. And then we see some violence with the Young Bloods, the Puerto Rican group that was following the Black Panthers. So, we see a lot of violence here. And the question is, were the Black Panthers violent? There is a question, "No, they were not." "Yes, they are." "No, they were not." "They are not the Weathermen." DG (00:54:38): The Panthers devolved into an organized crime gang. The Panthers are, what is his name? It is not a fully honest book. The guy who was the security head who is now in New York. He has got a very unusual name. I am blocking the first name. I want to say his last name is Forbes. Forbes? SM (00:54:57): Black Panther? DG (00:54:57): Yeah, Panther. SM (00:54:58): Oh. I only know Dave Hilliard is the guy in charge. DG (00:55:01): Yeah. Yeah. I cannot [inaudible]. SM (00:55:03): Elaine Brown, I think. I think David Horowitz believes that she is the person responsible for the murder of... DG (00:55:11): Betty, the secretary. SM (00:55:12): Yes. DG (00:55:12): I mean, I cannot think of anything positive to say about Elaine Brown, or David Hilliard, or David Horowitz. But on the ... I forget her, I am not going to get her name right, Betty Lou Prader? Pratter? SM (00:55:27): Yes. Betty Van Patton? Was that her name, or something like that? DG (00:55:27): Yeah, something on, yeah. I apologize for not having it right. On that one, Horowitz may have benefited from the Blind Pig phenomenon. I am not good enough ... I do not know the SDS decline well enough to narrate all the splits. I wish that people like Bill Ayers, and I have a lot of respect for Bill in some ways. I wish that people like Bill and Bernadine and... SM (00:56:17): I have been trying to get her to be interviewed, and she just [inaudible]. Well, she does not even say yes or no. She would not even respond. Her secretary said, "I give it to her." She does not even respond. DG (00:56:25): Yeah. I wish the people from that whole world were a little more publicly honest with themselves. SM (00:56:36): Martin [inaudible] has been. DG (00:56:38): Has he? Okay. SM (00:56:39): I think Martin... DG (00:56:39): See, I do not follow with that. The person on whom I have always relied, whose judgment I have always relied upon for that world is Todd. SM (00:56:48): Oh, yeah. DG (00:56:48): Todd is sort of my guidepost for that, because to the extent I know it, and that extent is limited and modest, Todd is the person who gets it right. SM (00:57:03): I do not know how much more time you have? DG (00:57:05): It is more a question of my tiredness. We can go to another five, 10 minutes. SM (00:57:09): Okay, great. And then I will finish it on a phone conversation. DG (00:57:12): Sure-sure. SM (00:57:12): I have got some real quick questions I have put together since you are home. The Civil Rights Movement is so important in the lives of boomers. Again, you would have to be in a cage to not realize it. DG (00:57:25): Right. SM (00:57:25): And it is so important, because we all know that have studied the history of that period, that the Freedom Summer of (19)64, but way before Freedom Summer, people like Tom Hayden and others who went South. DG (00:57:36): Going South. Yep-yep, yep, yep-yep. SM (00:57:37): Casey... DG (00:57:37): Casey Hayden. SM (00:57:38): Casey Hayden, who is going to be interviewed with me. She is always... DG (00:57:42): She is a beautiful person. SM (00:57:42): She does not do interviews anymore, though. DG (00:57:44): Oh, really? SM (00:57:45): No, she is very hesitant. And I guess she is pretty sick. And she has got some very bad back problems, and everything. DG (00:57:51): Oh, okay. SM (00:57:53): But the question I am getting at is, would not you say that the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s was the catalyst for everything that followed? Anti-War movement, the Women's movement, the Gay and Lesbian movement, the Environmental movement, the Chicano movement, and the Native American movement. Because they use that, history books have said that it was the model on how to do things. DG (00:58:18): Yep. Now I am quite positive on Sara Evan's book, which is really the book to make... SM (00:58:25): Personal Choices? DG (00:58:40): Yeah-yeah. Personal Politics. SM (00:58:40): Personal Politics. DG (00:58:40): And Sara's book, if I am remembering this right, is 1980, I want to think? SM (00:58:40): I think that is right. I would say that. DG (00:58:46): Now, I think that basic notion is correct to a degree, but to a modest degree. And it varies by movement. The white folks who go South, both early on, like Tom, like Joni, and then the larger group that go South in (19)64, and a smattering of those who go in (19)65.I think if we look at the individual biographical trajectories of those people, and I do not like saying this, but I mean, it is the honest thing to say, they do not turn out to be, on the whole, terribly influential people. Given their pedigrees, they actually should have been more influential. And that raises the bigger question, which you can see on any SNCC email lists or set of exchanges, that participation in something as intense, and emotional, and threatening as the movement, tends to, at least to some measurable degree, to produce instances of personal emotional traumatization of whatever sort. Now, I do not know enough, and I am rusty enough on that Alden from Saint and company, the sort of psychiatric psychological literature of the mid to late (19)60s on Civil Rights movement volunteers, and I have got various ambivalences about that literature that we do not need to go into. But I guess you could make the argument, quite fair-minded argument, as a scholar, that the people who chose to go South, were, of course, not a random distribution. But these were already people who were self-identified as dissenters, or uncomfortable, or outside the norm. SM (01:00:57): And many red diaper babies. DG (01:00:59): Yeah. It is not just ideological. And certainly, I completely agree on the diaper baby aspect of it. So, the fact that these people end up having a post (19)64, (19)65 higher-than-average casualty rate, in terms of their sort of social connectivity, it could be, to some degree, the result of pre-selection, and not just the result of the trauma of being in Neshoba County Mississippi, or wherever, in 1964. Now, I am not sure where, anywhere I was going to go after that. SM (01:01:47): Would not you say, though, that probably one of the most important results of those young people being around the Free Speech movement at Berkeley in (19)64- It looks like the other one here. I am going to be out at Berkeley. They have got a statue out there that they put up for the Free Speech Movement. DG (01:02:14): Oh, okay. SM (01:02:14): I am going to be out there next week vacationing. But I am going to be going to the... DG (01:02:24): Certainly, in terms of Sabio, and the FS, and then Berkeley, yeah, there is a direct line of connection. And there is some direct line of connection as Sara's book very nicely traces out, to many of the early feminist groupings grouplex, especially in New York. When you look, though, and this is where I am switching over to liberty and sexuality, in terms of the actual legislative initiatives and activism around the legislative initiatives, and with the legal initiatives that lead to Roe and Doe, the right to abortion is the product not of the feminist movement, it is the product of a relatively small-sized network of mainly male, or disproportionately male, professionals, doctors, public health people, journalists, lawyers. So, even if this is sort of politically incorrect in some sectors of the planet, I do not see the ... it is incorrect to see Roe versus Wade as a product of feminist activism. It is a product of professional reformers, very impressive, committed professional reformers. Where the doctors are crucial and the lawyers are crucial. Now, some of the lawyers are young women. But just as many of the important lawyers are young men. And you can argue young men are quite committed to the idea of sexual freedom, unsurprisingly. Now, I do not know. I am not good and I do not know American Indian movement history at all. I do not know Chicano history well at all. But I think that we have to moderate and de-limit the notion that everything else flows directly from the Black Freedom struggle in the South. Both because the direct personal linkages are actually relatively modest, though that is a separable question from a sort of, the category of was a Cesar Chavez, was a whomever, inspired by watching King, inspired by watching John Lewis? That, I cannot judge. That is outside of my purview. So, anything else, or are we... SM (01:05:33): I guess we will finish this up at another time. And I thank you. DG (01:05:37): Oh, sure. SM (01:05:37): I did not expect to have this. And I really, it is an honor. DG (01:05:48): No, I wanted to do it. No, I felt ... I spent 98 percent of my life in your position, trying to get former Obama classmates, or campaign staffers, or whatever, to talk to me. SM (01:05:55): Right. DG (01:05:55): So, my sense of the karma is just too overwhelming. SM (01:06:03): Well, what is interesting, Dr. Garrow, is that this is my first book. All these years I have been in hiding. I have been so busy being a college administrator, working with students, I have not had a chance. But this is actually an oral history. This is going to be like a Studs Terkel [inaudible] ideas. But my next venture, I am in my early (19)60s, and I am starting late, but my next venture is something that Lewis Baldwin, the historian, said that I ought to do. And that is something, Dr. King is one of my all-time heroes. And I worked in higher education for 30 years, and I make sure every year we get a tribute to him. And I got heat for it. DG (01:06:42): Right, right-right. SM (01:06:43): I got a lot of heat. Not in more recent years, but in some of the other years. And my dream is that someday do an in-depth look, in-depth, at him and his Vietnam Memorial. Because Vietnam and Civil Rights were two areas that I am closely linked to. DG (01:07:05): You want to, I mean, I hope he is in good health. Up there in years. SM (01:07:09): [inaudible]? DG (01:07:09): No-no, no. Vince Harding, in Denver. SM (01:07:13): Oh. DG (01:07:13): Look up Vincent. Vincent is someone you need to be aware of. Vincent has some contributing role in Vietnam and Speech. I would have to ask Clay or somebody else, somebody, or Steve Fayer, from Eyes on the Prize. Steve would know. But Vincent would be good. Pay attention to that name. Look up Vincent. Vincent is probably older than Doc. So, Vincent is going to be born in the twenties. But Vincent is, to some degree, a sort of lesser male version of Ella Baker, in terms of encouraging the young people across the (19)60s. SM (01:07:52): Yeah, well, one of my first interviews was with Julian Bond, and he said, that was one of my early ones. And I brought Julian into our campus twice, and went down to the [inaudible] Memorial in Washington, and he was thrust into the emcee role, with about 10 minute's notice. But then I had John Lewis, I interviewed him for the book, and we had him on our campus. Of course, Lewis Baldwin came to our campus. And so, I have been involved in this for a very long time. And the final question I was going to ask here, let us see, my golly. That is a very long one. DG (01:08:29): Go ahead and state it. I mean, this is my body clock. SM (01:08:34): Yeah, I understand. DG (01:08:39): I am just starting, [inaudible], and physically, having spoken this morning, too. SM (01:08:41): I guess the last question I will ask, and that is something that you brought up when you mentioned in that article that I read off the web, about the fact that we tend to, as human beings, and as a society, and the media, to always go to the big-name organizations and the well-known names. We did a program on Dr. King at Westchester University, where we invited Linn Washington. I do not know if you know Linn? He wrote a book on Black judges in Pennsylvania? DG (01:09:13): No. SM (01:09:14): And a Professor from Villanova. And we talked about the unknown heroes. DG (01:09:21): [inaudible]. SM (01:09:24): The things that if Dr. King was alive today, he would say it is all the people that have gone and died that we will never know who they were, and what they did. DG (01:09:36): Yeah-yeah, yeah. SM (01:09:36): Because the movement could not have happened without that. Could you say a little bit about the unknown names [inaudible]. DG (01:09:43): You will see King repeatedly over time use the phrase, ground crew. He has got some extended airline metaphor about, it is not just pilots, it is the ground crew. I mean, that is repeatedly inescapably true, locale after locale, after locale. Whether... SM (01:10:03): It is capably true locale after locale after locale, whether in Montgomery, whether in Albany, whether in Birmingham or Selma. Let me just, the one last thing to say on this, sure you know this already, but just to emphasize it, keep in mind that in Birmingham in particular, we have got such a degree of active participation by people who are not yet high school graduates. And so, you have a degree of youth in terms of 15-year-olds in Birmingham in 1963, so that your actual in the streets lead, wedge in Birmingham, James Orange. James Orange is an important name for you. Because James graduated when did James graduate Parker High School? I am not going to get this right. Look up James. I hope somebody has done a good Wikipedia on James. And who was, I am going to, I am rush on this, who was the principal? Was Angela Davis's father, the principal at Parker High School? Angela Davis comes from Birmingham, and there is a lot of, I may have this, I have to send this, who is principal of Parker High School is important, but I may have [inaudible] about the Davis' versus someone else. DG (01:11:31): He was there when the little girl died in the church fire. SM (01:11:31): Yeah-yeah. DG (01:11:31): Yeah. SM (01:11:36): Look up Sheryll Cashin's father too. John Cashin, who was a dentist in Huntsville. Sheryll was a wonderful... DG (01:11:42): How do you spell that last name? SM (01:11:43): C A S H I N. Sheryll was a law professor at Georgetown. Wonderful lady. And she wrote a memoir, published a memoir about two, three years ago, about her daddy. And the daddy was so committed to activism that he was always putting his family in, potentially, dire straits. So, I have not, unfortunately, read it, but it is a memoir about the family cost of activism. And she was a really good person. Great. DG (01:12:20): She was a Georgetown? SM (01:12:20): Yeah. And so, David, Sheryll. S H E R Y L L Cashin. DG (01:12:26): David Coles there, I think. SM (01:12:27): Yes-yes, yes. Yeah. But Birmingham should stand out for you because so many of the young participants in Birmingham are post 45. DG (01:12:36): Yes-yes. SM (01:12:36): Date of birth. So, we should stop, I am, and I will just put it here. DG (01:12:41): Sure. SM (01:12:48): One of the things about Barack Obama, what is interesting is that he tries to not be identified with the boomers, of the (19)60s generation, yet the press keeps saying he is the reincarnation of it. So, is not been that an oxymoron that he was trying to disassociate himself from it? I have read everything that has been written about Barack, at least with any sort of biographical linkage. And I have not seen that or otherwise, have not thought about it. But that may be, again, me tuning out when I see the word boomer. DG (01:13:28): Oh yes. SM (01:13:29): That may be what is going on. DG (01:13:31): I think they say the (19)60s generation. I think that is what they do. SM (01:13:38): Yeah, sure. And again, thanks again for bearing with me here and... DG (01:13:41): Oh sure. SM (01:13:41): Being patient. What was the working relationship like between Dr. King and the other members of the Big four? James Farmer, Roy Wilkins and Whitney Young? What was their relationship like? Wilkins, like the NAACP hierarchy in general, including Thurgood Marshall and Wilkins' direct deputies like John Marshall viewed King with the, had a leery view of King from the get-go as a potential threat to the or NAACP's organizational primacy. DG (01:14:34): And certainly, once King formed SCLC in 1957, and then especially once the student movement got active in 1960, the NAACP's disdain, dislike for King became more pronounced. So, the King, Wilkins relationship was never close and was pretty consistently fraught with dislike, disdain on Wilkins's part. King learned to just tolerate it. I think King was significantly more comfortable with both Jim Farmer and with Whitney Young. They were never close, close, nor was King in any way close with Floyd McKissick, after McKissick replaces Jim Farmer, (19)66-ish, King and Young, as is well known, had some tensions after (19)65, because, true, Young was much more directly aligned with Lyndon Johnson and did not share King's opposition to the Vietnam War, had one well-known face off, not quite argument, but disagreeable conversation during the period when John Lewis's head of SNCC. They are, that is a somewhat closer relationship, but it is not as close as I think some people may imagine it, nowadays or in recent time. SM (01:16:45): Is there truth to that story that when President Kennedy was concerned about the March on Washington (19)63, when the group met at the White House, was, actually A. Phillip Randolph was kind of the father figure and all the other civil rights leaders, he was very worried about potential violence in the city, and he was hesitant to support it, but he was very concerned what John Lewis was going to say. And... DG (01:17:13): Mr. Randolph was without a doubt, the presiding elder in that entire context of 1963. The overblown or exaggerated worries about the 1963 March were, I think, shared pretty widely throughout the Kennedy administration, not just on the part of the President. And I do not think the President was as, was any more concerned or worried than a good many people in DOJ and in the White House. SM (01:17:55): When you look at the speech he gave in New York in (19)67 against the Vietnam War, did he consult with any of his other peers before giving that speech? In other words, the other members of the Big Four or... DG (01:18:13): No. SM (01:18:14): Either in other members of SCLC? DG (01:18:16): No. The relationship among the leaders is never at any point, that interlinked. Steven Courier, wealthy Financial Person, Foundation head, who died in a plane crash sometime (19)66, (19)67-ish, I am not sure of the date. Steve Courier had tried to bring all of the African American Civil Rights leaders together in a thing called Cook Roll Count, CUCRL, Council for United Civil Rights Leadership, which was a, sort of, effort to create a regular conversational structure. It never really got anywhere, because really none of them were that interested in giving up their independence to that degree. So, King, the people King consulted most closely with, and this is true from (19)62 onward up to (19)68, are the two circles of one his immediate people around him in SCLC, Wyatt Walker, And he, Wyatt leaves in (19)64. Andy Young, oftentimes Jim Bevel, Ralph Abernathy, and Bernard Lee, in a different, less policy-oriented way. But the people who really had the most substantive political policy and analytical, intellectual interaction with King are really King's New Yorkers, Stan Levison, Clarence Jones, Bayard Rustin, Harry Walk Tell, Marion Logan, a little bit less so. Mike Harrington, a little bit less so, but it really is the New Yorkers who were the Brain Trust, and Bayard and Stan in particular, Clarence, probably third Harry Walk Tell, Fourth, they are in many respects, the most important sounding boards for King, even though he spent a whole lot more time in a day of the week, hours per day, sense with Bernard Lee and Ralph Abernathy. Come Vietnam, there are some other important voices in there too. Vincent Harding, John McGuire, who certainly make contributions to that, to the... SM (01:21:07): Did Rabbi Heschel play an important role here too? DG (01:21:10): Excuse me, I am sorry? SM (01:21:11): Did Rabbi Heschel play an important role in his... DG (01:21:14): No-no. SM (01:21:15): No? DG (01:21:16): No, I do not think there is, there is a little bit of contact there. You could say the same thing for Ben Spot, but no, I am... Thanks to the wiretap transcripts. This is, again, one of the great ironies of the FBI. Thanks to the wiretap transcripts, one can have a real good idea of who King is in contact with, because the transcripts we have with Stan, with Clarence, with Bayard, make really clear who else King is talking with too. SM (01:21:50): Very good. Yeah, because I know there is a lot of discussion out there that he played a major role in that Vietnam speech. DG (01:21:58): Heschel? SM (01:21:58): Yeah. Persuading him to do it, not... DG (01:22:01): Oh. No, I would have to think about how the invitation to go to Riverside comes into being, but no, I would not... SM (01:22:19): Would you agree that March on Washington (19)63, how many people were there? I have heard different numbers. DG (01:22:26): I do not want to do that off the top of my head, whatever. I know I looked at that with a critical edge when I did, bearing the cross. So, whatever I said in bearing the cross would be my own best conclusion about the numbers that were used contemporaneously. Hold on just a second for me. SM (01:22:53): Yep. DG (01:22:53): I want to turn the temperature on the fan up a bit. Sorry, here we go. SM (01:23:10): Is it pretty cold in Chicago? DG (01:23:12): No, actually not. When I came back in, I made it cooler and where I am sitting here, it just blows directly on me. SM (01:23:22): One of the, I think we talked about this briefly at Princeton, but one of the sensitivities about the civil rights movement, is the sexism and the few women were at the leader, in the leadership roles. But I have some questions. I met with Dr. Cohen this past, yesterday, in fact, down in New York City. DG (01:23:44): Oh, Jim Cohen? SM (01:23:45): No, Robert Cohen who wrote, [crosstalk] free speech movement. DG (01:23:46): Oh, sure-sure, sure. SM (01:23:48): And he is writing a new book now on the activism in the South, the African American activism in the South amongst the young students in the early (19)60s, which has not been written about as much, and a lot of women were in key roles there. Your thoughts on what the media has portrayed as a sexism within the movement, particularly when you look at the March on Washington (19)63, you see Dorothy Height there and Mahalia Jackson was there singing, but you do not see there, any other, really, women leaders? DG (01:24:21): No, they went through them. I would not get the entire roster of names correct off the top of my head, but there is a series of quick introductions of other women and did it include Mrs. Parks? Did it include Diane Nash Bevel? Did it include Gloria Richardson from Cambridge, Maryland? Part of what is an issue in the limits on women's organizational participation in the movement, part of that grows out of, in some aspects of the movement, grows straight out of the black church, gender roles, gender structure. Part of it too, simply just parallels what there is in all of the US society at that time, wholly separate from, apart from the movement, but the most important women to name, I always draw back when the first name people use is Dorothy Height, because Dorothy Height was simply someone who was the head of an organization with an office in Washington, period. People like Diane Nash, people like Gloria Richardson, people like Joanne Robinson in Montgomery, people like Amelia Boynton in Selma. One could go on and on at the local level, and one could also do the same thing with people like Ruby, Doris Smith Robinson in women played major roles in most of the locales, most of the organizations Septima Clark, Dorothy Cotton in SCL C, and did not get much credit or appropriate credit until years later in some of the literature. But the question of women's roles should be looked at from that fundamentally local, fundamentally southern lens knocked through a sort of DC interest group perspective. SM (01:26:45): Would you say that, I asked a question to everyone. I think I may have asked it to you, as well, but when did the (19)60s begin and end and many people feel that the (19)60s began at the lunch counters? DG (01:27:00): Oh, yeah. No, I would very much agree with the February 1, 1960 dating. I do not think I am going to cast a vote on when they end, because if I had to choose, I think I would say when RFK is shot in Los Angeles, more so than when Doc is killed. SM (01:27:36): Why did, this is interesting because Bayard Rustin's a big name here. Yeah. He is from Westchester, and we did a conference on this, and I have read in several books, Dr. Levine's book and John de Emilio's book. There is a lot of explanations here, but I would like to hear from you, why did Dr. King not fire Bayard Rustin? He had people... DG (01:27:54): Sorry, in what time frame? SM (01:27:57): In that time frame, I think Jose Williams was one of the biggest critics of Bayard Rustin, and did not really like him. And because he was a gay person, and... DG (01:28:08): Well, I was in the major attack on Bayard is what Adam Powell mounts back in 1960, for God knows what reasons, maybe because he is carrying water for national political party leadership, I think is the most likely answer. And King, as I said, in baring the crosses, other people have said Emilio, too. I mean, King behaves very badly towards Bayard in 1960. SM (01:28:43): In what way? In what way? DG (01:28:43): In contrast, everybody behaves very well, very courageously in 1963 when Strom Thurmond and others go after Rustin in the context of the (19)63 March, and Bayard from (19)63 into (19)66, (19)67, what Bayard and Mr. Randolph are saying about, and Tom Kahn are saying about economic policy issues and questions, is a big, big, big influence on what is going on in progressive circles in the 1960s. And a big, big influence on King. Where Bayard draws a lot of criticism, is in Bayard's reluctance, unwillingness, tardiness, to be critical of the Vietnam War, which seems all the more pronounced, and to some people inexplicable or contradictory, given Bayard's, deep pacifist roots and credentials going back to the 1940s. SM (01:30:00): Would you say though that even when Dr. King went north, I remember he went into the Chicago area and there were criticism within the ranks of SCLC and in other groups, that he should stay in the South, that racism was really an issue in the South and not in the North. DG (01:30:20): I think most of the disagreement within SCLC, was fundamentally, rooted in the fact that the staff were virtually all Southerners, lifetime Southerners, who, understandably, felt much more comfortable anywhere in the South than they would in any northern city, whether Chicago, New York, Newark, et cetera. In retrospect, how much of a mistake was it for Doc and SCLC to come to Chicago? The local movement here that invited them, Al Raby was a vibrant local network, although it was a vibrant local network set in a context where a heavy majority of African Americans were, African Americans who were politically active, were unsurprisingly, tied fairly closely to the Democratic machine. SM (01:31:35): Could you describe Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and then maybe some of the members of the Big Four as well? Their response to black power and to the Black Panthers, as a whole? I say this for a couple reasons. Number one, there is that picture of Dr. King next to Stokely Carmichael, and Stokely may be one of the more respected Black Panthers, but he was in SNNC, and then he went to the Black Panthers as... DG (01:32:03): Yeah, but I would never speak of Stokely as a panther. The Panthers, to me are a very separate kettle of fish from what Stokely and Willie Ricks, and other people from SNCC who really use the black power phrase represent. And the people who put forward the black power phrase ,and the black power emphasis from the Southern movement, I think are a quite understandable product of what black people are looking at in a context like Lowndes County, Alabama in (19)65, (19)66, where in contrast, in huge total contrast, to what Bayard Rustin is seeing at the national level, where Bayard and other national political voices are seeing the Democratic party and labor unions, as the best vehicles and allies for the black policy agenda. In a context like Alabama, the Democratic Party simply means George Wallace. So, there is a really almost complete disconnect between what black activists are experiencing in a rural southern context and what the world looks like to someone like Bayard. The Panthers are largely a San Francisco Bay area phenomenon, who then acquire somewhat spontaneously adherence supporters, enlistees, in a series of varied other locales, whether it is Chicago and other cities, both large and small. I think it is very, very difficult to speak comprehensively, about the Panthers in any, to any meaningful degree, because what the Panthers represented in Baltimore or Boston or Chicago, is not necessarily what they represented in Oakland. The historiography on the Black Panther party is not very large, and today, not very good. And we have got a long way to go on that. SM (01:35:01): How did the, I always remember, even in college, I remember Charles, I think it is Charles Silverman's Crisis in Black and White? DG (01:35:09): Oh, yeah. Yep. SM (01:35:10): A great book that we read in sociology class back in the late (19)60s, which was a required reading. And I will never forget the line in there where Dr. King did not fear the bigot, and he knew his supporters, but he feared the fence sitter, the one that we never know what they think, but he felt they were the more dangerous. And one of the things about after King, is that he was very open and you knew what he was thinking. I often wondered what Thurgood Marshall thought when Dr. King was coming to power. And the Brown versus Board of Education decision in (19)54 was monumental. It was historic, but it was a more gradualist approach to rights for African Americans. Whereas Dr. King said, I praise that decision, but we want it now. And so... DG (01:36:05): No, let me... SM (01:36:05): The time of change. So, he was basically challenging the methods of Thurgood Marshall, your thoughts on how did Thurgood respond to Dr. King, and the style of non-violent protest? DG (01:36:13): Well, Thurgood Marshall was, Thurgood Marshall was a lawyer, through and through, and believed totally in a constitutional, constitutional rights, constitutional litigation through the courts approach to civil rights change. Marshall was very dubious, doubtful, sarcastic, about any notion that people getting arrested and facing criminal charges, could make any positive contribution. So, Marshall's disdain, is a disdain for the entire concept of civil disobedience as a social change strategy? SM (01:37:13): Did that, I often wonder then, Dr. King then when he was in his late thirties, and I know Bayard Rustin's the same way, were challenged by the new ones, the Stokely’s and the, I guess, H. Rap Brown... DG (01:37:27): I actually, I actually believe that the King-Stokely relationship was both closer and more respectful than most people have been willing to appreciate or acknowledge. Stokely and Willie Ricks enjoyed the politics of theater, or theatrical politics of, the theatrical aspects of black power politics, a little bit too much for anyone's good. But I view Stokely as someone who was trying to push the envelope without totally leaving the King frame of reference. SM (01:38:26): Yeah, because then you get the H Rap Browns who was in SNNC, and then he became a Black Panther, and a lot of people thought he went to violence. DG (01:38:40): I do not believe Rap had much of any relationship with Dr. King. And again, I do not think either Stokely or Rap should be discussed in terms of the Panthers, because that is a brief potential organizational alliance that goes nowhere. SM (01:39:00): What did Dr. King think of the Huey Newtons and the Bobby Seals, though, would not he... DG (01:39:06): I am unaware of any evidence that he thought about them much at all. SM (01:39:12): Okay. DG (01:39:12): You just do not see much reference to it at all. I do not think King ever met any of those folks in person that I am aware of. Even passively. I would have to, I think that is the right answer. I just want, I would want to think about that. But... SM (01:39:37): In some of my interviews that I have had, and again, your opinion would be very important on this. When we talk about the student protest movement of the (19)60s, a lot of people will say, well, the boomers were both born between (19)46 and (19)64. I know Dr. King had many young teenagers in his movement, but basically the civil rights movement was older people, whereas the boomers really came to power with the anti-war movement of Vietnam, women's movement and all the other movements in the late (19)60s. So thus, the boomers did not have much of an influence in the civil rights movement. Do you believe that? DG (01:40:14): But it varies by organization and by locale. Now, most everyone who was in SNCC would have been roughly 20, 22 years old in 1960, 1962. You do not, I am not sure you have anybody, you do not have many people in SNCC born after (19)46. Now, at a local level, in a place like Birmingham where you have a lot of high school student participation, though simply at a protest or demonstrator level, if you were 18 years old in 1963, that means you were born in (19)45. So, you would have a little bit there. But then even people who are 22 years old in 1968, in terms of people who are graduating from active and anti-war stuff, only a little bit of people who would be born, say (19)46, (19)47-ish. SM (01:41:30): And this is, just the information you just gave me, shows that trying to pinpoint a generation based on years (19)46 to (19)64 really takes away a lot, because I am talking the spirit, and I have had more and more people tell me that those people born, say between (19)38 and (19)45 are as, are closer to the first generation, the first 10-year boomers than the boomers of the last 10 years. Because it is... DG (01:42:03): Yeah, I would... SM (01:42:04): It is a spirit thing. DG (01:42:05): Yep. I would agree with that. Yes. SM (01:42:06): Yeah. So thus, they are linked in a very important way. Your thoughts on the relationship between Dr. King and Malcolm X? Malcolm died in (19)65. Correct me. I think they liked each other, but... DG (01:42:21): As best we know, they only met in person once that, the well-known photo of it. I think they had a significant degree of mutually shared respect. I think it is, fundamentally, erroneous for people to think of them as opponents or opposites. And I think Malcolm needs to be viewed primarily through the lens of the last 12 months of his life, when he is independent from Elijah and the Nation of Islam. SM (01:43:02): I have always thought, as a person who loves history, I am not as a historian like you, but I have always, history was my major, that there is a link between Malcolm X and Bobby Kennedy, and I have always felt that the link was just what you said, that Malcolm changed, all people were not devils. He saw when he went over to Mecca and he came back, he was a change man, and that is, Bobby Kennedy was the same way. DG (01:43:30): Yep, that is a very good, when you first started saying that, I thought, no, this does not make any sense. But no. Then when you explained exact, you explained the parallel. No, I completely confirm with, because that is a very insightful linkage. SM (01:43:47): Yeah. Because the Bobby that we saw in the hearings for Jimmy Hoffa is not the Bobby that we saw in (19)67 and (19)68. DG (01:43:53): Exactly. SM (01:43:55): And so, I just see tremendous passion in caring for fellow human beings. Overall, what was the relationship between SNCC and the Southern Christian Leadership Conference all throughout their history? DG (01:44:08): Oh, that is, I mean... SM (01:44:08): I do not, I... DG (01:44:08): That is book length, yeah. SM (01:44:11): Yeah. DG (01:44:18): SCLC helps give birth to SNCC, by the time of Albany and December of (19)61, especially into the summer of (19)62, many of the younger people in SNCC become somewhat disdain of King's hesitance, as well as King's media stature. The SNCC people are both more impatient and more locally oriented. By the time of the Democratic Convention in (19)64, the SNCC people have a much more critical... The snake people have a much more critical, much more cynical worldview than King and Bayard Rustin. By the time of Selma and Montgomery in the spring of (19)65, the tensions and disagreements are pretty pronounced, and you do have a sort of clear split between the organizations, even though there is still a lot of close personal ties one-on-one. And then ironically, in some respect, the two organizations come together in opposing Vietnam. SM (01:45:55): What some people have written, that when SNCC was breaking up, many went to become Black Panthers. Is that true? DG (01:46:06): No, I do not... I think the Panthers loom rather small in the whole thing. I am not sure there was ever a Panthers operation in Atlanta, for example. I am not sure there is. One thing that has to be kept in mind is that, and some of the more recent literature on the Panthers documents this, that you clearly had people setting themselves up in... I am not sure I would select the town accurately off the top of my head, Omaha, Nebraska, maybe you have people setting, announcing that they are Black Panthers in some city and the official Black Panther party in Oakland does not know anything about them, but the Panthers are as much a media phenomenon as they are anything else? SM (01:47:09): We know the impact that the young students who went south for Freedom Summer and even before Freedom Summer had in terms of many of the students that were at the free speech movement and at Berkeley and (19)64, (19)65, and certainly the influence that the movement had on the anti-war and the other movements in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Is there a direct, would you say that the concept of participatory democracy, which was in the SDS manifesto, which Tom Hayden wrote, and also what happened out at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65 with the free speech where they talked about participatory democracy, it all began with SNCC. DG (01:47:54): Yes. Certainly Tom, and I mean this... It has been years since I read and reviewed Tom's book, but I believe my recollection is that Tom's memoir makes it very clear how much he was influenced by what he saw of SNCC when he went south early on. Because remember Tom is in Albany for some chunk of time. I think there is significant direct influence from SNCC to early SDS to free speech movement in Berkeley. Again, my memory on this is a little rusty because it is, so many years have passed. Tim Miller's book- SM (01:48:39): Democracy in the Streets? DG (01:48:40): Yeah, it has been probably 20 years now since that book came out, but I remember that as being really first-rate and very much on target in analyzing those relationships and influences and linkages. SM (01:48:59): How important was Coretta Scott King, her role before and after Dr. King's death and- DG (01:49:06): Very little. Before Doc's death, close to zero and not that significant after. SM (01:49:21): Because I have a question here because we see a lot of her, but what is interesting is that they had four children yet that it was such a dysfunctional family after his death. Not so much right after his death, but certainly as they got into their twenties and thirties fighting over the center and when are they going to sell it and- DG (01:49:40): Unfortunately, the whole SCLC world becomes dysfunctional after Doc's death because you have disagreements between Ralph Abernathy and Mrs. King. You have disagreements between Jose Williams and Ralph, between... Throw Andy Young into the mix, throw Jesse Jackson into the mix. There are no happy stories from (19)68 forward in SCLC in the King Center, there are no happy stories at all. Joseph Lowry is the one creditable survivor who comes through all of that period. It is a sad story. SM (01:50:30): You had mentioned in, when I was talking to you at Princeton about Dr. King had another wife, something of that effect. DG (01:50:42): Oh yeah. We have always used... I mean, there is someone whom we have never, who is still alive and we have never publicly named who is the most significant person in his personal life from (19)63 forward. I mean, that is in Bearing the Cross without a name attached. That lady has got to be, let me think. Well into her seventies now. SM (01:51:15): Was she the type of person that influenced him politically? In his- DG (01:51:20): No, I do not say political influence, no, but I think he draws more emotional sustenance and support from that relationship than from anything else. SM (01:51:37): That whole J Edgar Hoover... Would you think that Bobby Kennedy really regretted that in the end? DG (01:51:49): I think he regretted going along with the Bureau on wiretapping King himself as distinct from wiretapping Stan Levison and Clarence Jones. That would be my... If we were able to know where Bobby's mind was at on that as of early June (19)68, that is my strong instinct as to what he would say. SM (01:52:22): What do you think these files say? I have read that the three thickest files of any American in the FBI is Dr. King, Eleanor Roosevelt- DG (01:52:39): Oh, that is crap. SM (01:52:40): ... And John Lennon. DG (01:52:40): No. SM (01:52:49): No? DG (01:52:50): No, the John Lennon thing is a complete Looney Tunes trip. No, I mean the largest files the Bureau would be on Communist party functionaries that most people have never heard of. And the FBI file on say Elijah Mohamed would be 65 times larger than anything they have on Mrs. Roosevelt, never mind John Lennon. The Lennon thing is the result of one installer with a sort of creative omelet. And even Doc's file, I mean the main... The 1066, 70 file on Doc is large, but it is my now rusty recollection, though no one has ever gotten the file on Elijah, is that Elijah's would be significantly larger. SM (01:53:48): One of the things that in our conference on Bayard Rustin that we learned... Well, we knew that he influenced a lot of young people, but somebody at the conference had documented that he had influenced almost 2,500 people to go into public services in some capacity. DG (01:54:06): Well, it depends. That would depend on how one defines the term influence. SM (01:54:12): Yeah. And of course, a lot of them were at the conference and some of... Quite a few of them were working in the Clinton administration at the time. But did Dr. King have the same kind of influence on young people to follow in his- DG (01:54:28): I think that is difficult to measure because it is... Does one mean one on one-on-one relationships as opposed to people that see something on TV or on film or read something? In a one-on-one sense, it would be very hard to add up significant numbers. SM (01:55:01): We are looking at the boomer generation, of course there were quite a few presidents from Truman right now to Obama. But when you look at the following presidents, just a brief comment on these few, where would you place them in the area of civil rights? In other words, they were really cared about this issue. It was not just being pragmatic to do it or something. John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford, Ronald Reagan, and Jimmy Carter. DG (01:55:35): JFK changes very measurably for the better in May, June of (19)63. It is a great step forward for him. LBJ cares a great deal about it, clearly, from November of (19)63 forward, though he becomes very despondent, depressed that Black America in the (19)67, (19)68 context does not appreciate him more. Nixon, I do not think ever views it as any different than interest group organizational politics in other settings. Say the civil rights movement to Nixon is another, is say, like the labor movement, another piece on the chess board. I am not sure I could say anything with regard to Jerry Ford when he is in the house. I do not think he ever focuses on it to a significant degree. Ditto for Ronald Reagan. I do not think Reagan had any personal, negative values about it. I just do not think he had ever thought about it or appreciated it very much. Carter in a way, would be the most complicated because he perhaps should have known more and done more coming from where he came from in southwest Georgia. I do not know the Carter biographical literature, but Carter probably is always more distant from it than he might have been. SM (01:57:54): How about the two Bushes? Bush one, Bush two, and of course Bill Clinton. DG (01:57:58): I do not know enough biographically about either Bush. I mean, they are sort of outside my, I have never written about them, so they are really outside my scholarly purview. SM (01:58:18): And Bill Clinton? DG (01:58:19): No, I- SM (01:58:22): He seemed to care about it. DG (01:58:23): I have not read... Some of the political theatrics, I think playing the saxophone or whatever on, what was that Gentleman's TV show? Arsenio Hall. SM (01:58:41): Yeah. DG (01:58:42): I think those sorts of political theatrics can be taken way too seriously or way too importantly by people. SM (01:58:50): And of course, the last two you have written about Dwight Eisenhower and Harry Truman. DG (01:58:55): Yeah, Eisenhower is a huge disappointment, probably is the one person in the entire panoply of presidents who evidence suggests, did hold discriminatory views. Truman, on the other hand, is a quite pleasant surprise given where he comes from in terms of very modest roots. SM (01:59:20): He integrated the military, did not he? DG (01:59:27): Yeah. Well, I think that is a more complicated story. SM (01:59:28): Yes, I know. Pressures, yeah. DG (01:59:31): Are we about there? SM (01:59:32): We got a couple more questions, a couple more here. Bayard Rustin's. Would you say that Bayard Rustin's most influential person in his life was A. Philip Randolph and that Dr. Mays was the most important influence in Dr. King's life? DG (01:59:49): I think that is correct for Bayard. It is either Mr. Randolph or AJ Musky, though Musky is a complicated, and in some ways unhappy... Ends unhappily, but I would defer to John De Emilio on that. On Doc, with regard to Benny Mays, no. No, absolutely not the most important. Hard to say. I mean, the answer is probably Daddy King in that sense. Yeah. Daddy King is definitely my answer there. SM (02:00:37): This is a question that we asked Senator Edmond Musky, when I took students to Washington in 19... I do not think I asked this question, did I? The question on healing? It is a question that the students came up with when we went down in DC in (19)95, and the question was this. Due to the divisions that were so intense during the 1960s, do you feel that the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation not truly healing from the massive divisions that tore the nation apart at the time? Students that came up with a question- DG (02:01:17): No. I mean, I do not... I would critique or dismiss the question because I think the people that really suffered the divisions, as you rightly touched on somewhat earlier, are people who are pre (19)46. SM (02:01:37): Yeah. Because Senator Musky, his response was that, "We have not healed since the Civil War in the issue of race." DG (02:01:43): No, I think that varies a lot by local and class and neighborhood. I mean, simple generalizations do not work on that. I mean, whenever I am in a place like this, Chicago, there are so many complexities. I turn away from all-inclusive generalizations on that. SM (02:02:16): Two more questions and then we are done. DG (02:02:18): Sure. Okay. SM (02:02:18): One question on Roe v. Wade, which is, you have written a whole book on that? DG (02:02:22): Right. SM (02:02:22): And how important is this decision? Because there is this constant behind the scenes in Congress that we are going to change this, we are going to reverse the decision- DG (02:02:33): No, Roe will never be reversed in name. No. Roe has been a crucial landmark in acknowledging women's equality. This is a culture that is now much more child conscious than was American society in 1973. And I think that really the greater appreciation, the greater social cultural appreciation of children as opposed to 35, 40 years ago, is why overall American opinion is so much more ambivalent about abortion now than in the late (19)60s, early (19)70s. SM (02:03:43): Now, my question is, where do we stand today in the area of civil rights? In women's rights and all those rights movements that were so important in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? They still exist, but [crosstalk] DG (02:52:20): Yep. I mean three things, Barack Obama's election as president, irrespective of whether he ends up as a one-term president, will undeniably always be remembered as one of the landmark events in American history since the Civil War, much more important than the election of John Kennedy or Ronald Reagan or George W. Bush. Second, women have a degree of equality and equal participation in public life and the professions now that almost no one would have imagined in 1960 or 1965. And then lastly, the greatest change in America in my lifetime, I think without a doubt, the greatest change in America in the lifetime of all of us who are presently adults, is the almost complete acceptance of gay people as equal participants in American society and public life. Look at what Bayard went through. SM (02:53:50): Right. DG (02:53:51): Even as of 1970, it was almost impossible to be a gay person in public without being physically victimized. I mean, that is the greatest change, the best change that has happened during the lifetime of the boomer generation. SM (02:54:16): Would you say that the lasting legacy of the boomer generation may be the rights movement? Because Mario Savio talked about- DG (02:54:23): No, I would not. No, I would not want to... I mean, we would have to break down how much of the credit for what is happened, say with gay rights, goes to people who predate (19)46 or postdate to (19)64. SM (02:54:39): Mm-hmm. Is there a lasting legacy that you would say if you were a historian? DG (02:54:46): No, I have not thought about it in the way you have because I do not think about the generational category or the generational construct. SM (02:54:52): Right. Any other thoughts? DG (02:54:54): Nope. I think we are there. SM (02:54:56): Well, I want to thank you very much for not only greeting me at Princeton, which was an honor to meet you, and- DG (02:55:02): [inaudible]. SM (02:55:02): Meeting me at Princeton, which was an honor to meet you, and- DG (02:55:02): Totally. It was great. I very much enjoyed our conversation there. It was really great. SM (02:55:05): Yeah, and I will... Let us stay in touch, and I will keep you updated on my project. DG (02:55:09): Okay. Please do. SM (02:55:10): And continued success in your working on that book on President Obama. DG (02:55:15): Thank you very much. SM (02:55:15): Have a great day. DG (02:55:15): Okay, bye. SM (02:55:17): Bye. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 3 microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. David Garrow Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Garrow, David J., 1953- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Historians; Authors, American--20th century; College teachers;University of Pittsburgh. School of Law; Garrow, David J., 1953--Interviews Description An account of the resource Born in New Bedford, Massachusetts, Dr. David Garrow is a historian, educator, Pulitzer Prize-winning author, a Professor of Law & History, and Distinguished Faculty Scholar at the University of Pittsburgh School of Law. He was the senior advisor for the TV show <em>Eyes on The Prize</em> and a senior research fellow at Homerton College in Cambridge, M.A. He is a regular contributor to the <em>Washington Post</em>, <em>New York Times</em>, and <em>The American Prospect</em>. Garrow graduated magna cum laude from Wesleyan University and then received his Ph.D. from Duke University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-20 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.191a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.191b; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.191c Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 126:59 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/49f575bb176491709a6e8fd3f86d6773.jpg 80eca0362a808d3f67e922541edc76e0 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d1be25d4aeef2930d2b2feea5fbbb603.mp3 da4962a41031186ebfde001460566a58 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-10 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed H. Bruce (Howard Bruce) Franklin, 1934- Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Bruce H. Franklin is an American cultural historian and scholar. He has received top awards in American Studies, science fiction, prison literature, and marine ecology. Franklin has written and edited nineteen books, three hundred professional articles, and has participated in several film productions. He was awarded the Pearson-Bode Prize for lifetime achievement in American Studies. Franklin currently is the Professor of English and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey. He received his Bachelor's degree from Amherst College and his Ph.D. from Stanford University."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">H. Bruce Franklin is an American cultural historian and scholar. He has received top awards in American Studies, science fiction, prison literature, and marine ecology. Franklin has written and edited nineteen books, three hundred professional articles, and has participated in several film productions. He was awarded the Pearson-Bode Prize for lifetime achievement in American Studies. Franklin currently is the Professor of English and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey. He received his Bachelor's degree from Amherst College and his Ph.D. from Stanford University.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Propaganda; Anti-war movement; Baby boom generation; WW II; Vietnam War; Richard Nixon; Rock music; Drug culture; Liberation."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Propaganda; Anti-war movement; Baby boom generation; WW II; Vietnam War; Richard Nixon; Rock music; Drug culture; Liberation.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 46:50 Subject LCSH Historians; Authors, American--20th century College teachers; Rutgers University; Franklin, H. Bruce (Howard Bruce), 1934--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Bruce Franklin Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 10 March 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: [inaudible] again, thanks a lot for agreeing to participate in my book project. The first question I want to ask you is I want to go into detail on what happened to you at Stanford. But what I do not know about you is your parents, your background. Who were your role models and inspirations before you went into the military? Because the material that I read is after that. So how did you become who you are? BF: Well, I grew up in Brooklyn. You know that much, right? SM: Yep. BF: And my father had six months of high school [inaudible]. And we lived in a working class neighborhood. Well, I was born, actually, in Bedford-Stuyvesant, and then my parents [inaudible]... We were also talking about Engels. And as far as the work that I do, I would say that Engels' writing is probably more influential, directly influential, on my thinking than Marx's writings, especially Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State, and Socialism: Utopian and Scientific. I think those are very powerful and important analyses today. Lenin, I think [inaudible] radical opus of communications. But I kind of see Lenin's writings as falling into two categories. One, his analysis of imperialism, which I think is still very, very helpful and insightful. And so, his [inaudible] Marx with 19th century capitalism, the key text was Lenin's Imperialism, the Highest Stage of Capitalism, in which he describes the political economy which was dominant in the world during the first couple decades of the 20th century and on through the period of [inaudible] the mid-1970s. But in that period, colonialism as a system was destroyed. And this is what makes the Vietnam revolution so important in 20th and 21st century history, because it was cutting-edge. [inaudible] 1945 and 1949, a quarter of the world's population gained national independence from colonialism. In (19)49, in the Communist revolution, another quarter of the world's population was breaking away from [inaudible] decades of the 20th century. The world that we have (19)75 to 2010 is a different form of imperialism from what Lenin was writing about, although he saw finance capital becoming primary in the system. So that pretty far-sighted to think. The other part of Lenin's writings really revolve around the question of how to do it, or as he put it, what is to be done? And I think that the relevance of that writing in the post-Soviet period has got a whole string of question marks after it. It is not a simple question. I do not think these labels are very helpful anymore. I think that my books and articles speak for themselves. I have developed my own theoretical constructs, which are there in the book. My main work is as a cultural historian. So although if you look at ... If you look at Warstar's... Although I do feel [inaudible] with the relationship between what Marx called base and superstructure of [inaudible] the industry, what Eisenhower had called the- SM: [inaudible] BF: ...military-industrial complex [inaudible] a Marxist. To deal with that [inaudible] the main things I am focusing on really are consciousness issues [inaudible] cultural superstructure. And I do not think you will find much in Marx's or Engel's or Lenin's [inaudible] cultural superstructure. If anything, if there was one figure that was most influential on my approach to this, originally was Christopher Caudwell, C-A-U-D-W [inaudible], who himself was a Marxist and who died defending the Spanish popular government [inaudible]. I think Horowitz is such a fool. He and these other people who are whining about not [inaudible] themselves [inaudible] members of the faculty [inaudible]. The fact is that their work cannot withstand critical scrutiny. [inaudible] It is not well-researched. It is not [inaudible] by any standards. It is just foaming-at-the-mouth propaganda. SM: One of the first questions that I ask on the general area of questioning is the critics of the (19)60s generation blame a lot of the issues in the world today, the problems we have in this country, back to the boomers, the people that were either protesting the war, the 15 percent of the activists, who just could be about as many as 20, 25 million, and the breakdown of the family, the divorce rate, the drug culture, the sexual revolution, the beginning of the -isms, the pointing fingers toward other people for people's problems... And your thought on that kind of... And then secondly, because you have talked about the fact that small numbers of people can really make a difference in this world... And obviously, one of the critics of the (19)60s generation, or the boomers and the activists, is that only 15 percent were ever involved in any part of activism. So they use it as a negative as opposed to a positive, whereas 85 percent were just living their lives normally. I believe subconsciously everyone was affected. I do not care who you were. But how do you respond to people who generalize, again, that this period... And of course, this was when the Democratic Party was falling apart, too. And even Barney Frank wrote a book speaking frankly, where he states that the Democratic Party needs to separate itself from the war people, the anti-war, McGovern people, if it wants to survive as a party. So just your thoughts... And that was in (19)72 and- BF: The Democratic Party did separate itself from McGovern. That is what happened. SM: [inaudible]- BF: Because the people [inaudible] Democratic Party decided they would rather lose the election than lose their party. So they pulled the rug out from under him. The main thing is, who was right, who was wrong, the anti-war movement, or the people who got us into that war and kept us into that war and have kept us into war ever since? The people against the war were right. And in fact, it would be nice if the consciousness had not been largely erased, thus allowing this situation that we are presently in. Here is the way I look at it, putting my life in [inaudible] context. And it must have been [inaudible] 15 or 16 in 1945. I was riding around in Brooklyn. I was 11 years old, riding around in Brooklyn in the back of a pickup truck with a bunch of other kids. And we are all screaming, "Peace, peace. The war is over." The sidewalks are thronged with people, and everybody is yelling, "Peace, peace." And we really believed that we were going to spend the rest of our lives in a world without war, because the fascists and Nazis had been defeated, the militarists had been defeated. Democracies [inaudible]. And the fact of the matter is that I have spent almost the entire rest of my life in a nation that has been almost continually in a state of war. And in fact, while we were celebrating that, the Truman administration was making a deal with France to transport an invasion army to Vietnam, and arm that invasion army, an invasion army consisting of the largest [inaudible] Nazi soldiers. SM: Amazing. I read that. Yeah. BF: Not that we knew what was going on, which is why, I think, people are cynical, people believe you cannot trust the government. People believe the government lies to us and manipulates us, because the government's run in the interests of a few. It is pretty obvious. SM: Are you disappointed? You mentioned nine years old when you were at Stanford ... or I mean, excuse me, when you were in college. The boomers were a lot younger. But I know it is very difficult to generalize about 78 million people, but they have become the leaders. They have become the head of corporations. They run the world now, really, and all of the Generation X-ers who had followed them, their sons and daughters. How do you feel about this generally, this boomer generation? How do you feel about the 15 percent who were activists? And as they got older, did they remain activists? How many lived their ideals? BF: A lot did. There is a whole website [inaudible]. Stanford had [inaudible] the Stanford [inaudible]. And it had a website and archives [inaudible]. And I have [inaudible] because most of the people seemed to me to lead engaged lives, very active in their communities. So the idea that everybody who was active just gave up... corporations [inaudible]... I mean, I guess this is where my analysis and your analysis maybe part ways pretty dramatically, is I do not think of the generation as a very useful category- SM: I have heard that from other people. Yeah. BF: ...because [inaudible] a big chunk of time ... I have three kids who are boomers. And they were born in (19)56, (19)58 and (19)63. So I do not think of them ... My wife and I were talking about this relationship [inaudible]. We have never thought of our children as boomers. SM: Do they think of themselves as boomers? BF: I do not think so. No, I do not think so. It is true. My wife is the same age that I am. We were Depression babies [inaudible] babies [inaudible]. But I think social class, gender, ethnicity have a whole lot more to do with people's behavior. I suppose that as far as I know, the only thing you can really document about when you have a huge demographic bulge like that is that when that bulge reaches age 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, you are very likely to get an increased rate of crime. Historically [inaudible]- SM: Teenagers, yeah. BF: ...because most of what we define as crime, as opposed to corporate crime, most of what we define as crime is committed by people of that age. So when you have got more people of that age, you are probably going to have more crime. And obviously [inaudible], but- SM: Well- BF: ...[inaudible] and then there is all this medical research and everything that is come out, that people [inaudible] 16, 17, 18, 19, there is a core part of their brain that is not fully developed, which has something to do with their judgment. I mean, I look back at myself as a teenager, and what I know about other [inaudible] and I say, "How does anybody ever live through their teens?" They do not have a lot of sense. And a lot of people think they are immortal or bulletproof, or something. We knew some of the stuff that our kids were involved in. We have found out more [inaudible]. SM: Did you have a generation gap with your kids, when you were... because they always say that boomers, they really had a generation gap with their parents [inaudible]. BF: No. I mean, [inaudible] share our values. We are very close [inaudible]. SM: Right. In your view, when did the (19)60s begin, and when did it end? BF: I would say the (19)60s began in 1964 and ended around (19)74. SM: What was important in (19)64, Johnson winning, or... BF: Well, the way I see it, the I Have a Dream speech marked the end of it, the big March on Washington [inaudible], that, and the assassination of Kennedy. And then (19)64 was the first of the long, hot summers. It was the Mississippi Freedom Summer. It was the Gulf of Tonkin. It was the [inaudible] full-scale [inaudible]. And then, of course, [inaudible] was assassinated [inaudible]. I think if you looked at King's (19)63 speech and the April (19)67 speech and you put them together, you will see, how could so much change take place in such a short period of time? SM: You are talking about the Vietnam speech? BF: Yeah, yeah. And by (19)67, he is saying, "The greatest purveyor of violence in the world today is my own government. We are fighting on the wrong side of the war [inaudible]." This is the same guy that gave the I Have a Dream speech? He was part of the culture, and the changed situation and consciousness [inaudible]. So by (19)67, obviously, we were really into it. Early (19)65, the first anti-war demonstrations, the teach-ins of early (19)65. SM: And it ended in, you say, (19)74. Was that because the Vietnam War was over, or... BF: Well, (19)74, (19)75, someplace in there. The creation of the prison industrial complex. In some ways, you might be able to take... if you were going a couple years later. By (19)78, it was clear [inaudible]. I mean, [inaudible] emancipation radically changed between (19)77 and (19)78. (19)73, the United States surrenders in Vietnam. (19)75, the war is over. The change in dance styles began [inaudible]- SM: We had disco, yeah. Yeah. BF: It really takes over in the (19)80s. SM: You talked about ... because you are a cultural expert, and I had a chance to talk with Dr. Morris Dickstein, who talked about his book. And he wanted to talk more about culture. And what was it... the boomers often felt that they were the most unique generation in history. When they were young, they were going to change the world, create almost a utopia, end the war, bring peace, end racism, sexism, you name it. And then there was this feeling that they were unique, more unique than any other generally. Your thoughts on that kind of an attitude? Because many of them still feel that at 62 or 63, as they have gotten older. But what I am leaning into is, after you answer the question on uniqueness, what was it about the culture that stood out so different ... I know the music was unbelievable, the art was unbelievable, the theatrical performances. I am fascinated by guerrilla theater, that I do not think ever existed before. All these things that were a very important part of the period, and the movies, and the TV shows and documentaries, and the personalities on TV, there is a lot here. First, the question on uniqueness. BF: Every generation is unique, because every generation... See, I do not even know how... I have to confess something. The way my mind works, categories in general tend to break down. Whenever I started looking at categories, the boundaries of the categories start to come through. So I have a problem even with the concept of a generation. SM: That is okay. So did Todd Gitlin. BF: Yeah. [inaudible] So I can understand gender. That category I [inaudible]. And I can conceptualize class. But when there is a generation, it really seems to be very... the boundaries are so fluid. Okay, after World War II is [inaudible]. But what difference does that make? There were all kinds of other things happening in the world that were affecting people of different generations. And when I think of the anti-war movement, concrete... a lot of the people who were most active were people in the (19)60s, (19)67, (19)68, (19)69, who were in their 50s, 60s, 70s and older. And I do not know by percentage. Now, if you look at colleges, it is true that there were spectacular events at colleges, because it is easier for college students to engage in spectacular activities than it is for people who are working in the factory. SM: You are saying we tend to dwell too much on the college-educated as opposed to those that did not go to college. BF: [inaudible] Well, people, maybe they went to college, but I am saying different ages, different classes. This is not to belittle the college movement. It is wonderful, and I will be honest, [inaudible]. But I think the images that we have are quite inaccurate. When I think of the particular participants who were there year in and year out, a lot of them were older people in the community. But that is not the image. SM: How important were the... I am going to get to the culture question. How important were the college students and college student protests in ending the war? BF: Well, if you listen to the Vietnamese, they were very important. SM: Right. David Horowitz. BF: (19)64 to (19)68 was a period of [inaudible], which probably had a more direct role. But these things are not unrelated to each other, because the people who were rebelling in the cities, a lot of them were people who were going into the military [inaudible] because [inaudible] I think that in the final analysis, it was people in the military whose anti-war activities had great effect in ending the war; other than the Vietnamese, of course [inaudible]- SM: And you are talking- BF: The Vietnamese were going to win. They were going to win, no matter what. SM: Can you talk about that? And I know it is a very sensitive issue. I have brought it up with Vietnam vets who went there, and they may not want to talk about this part of the... I remember Country Joe was on our campus many years back, with Jan Scruggs. And we were eating dinner. And Country Joe is a little older than Jan Scruggs. And then out of nowhere, during the middle of the dinner, he says, "Have you ever wondered why there were no POWs for the North Vietnamese? Because they were all killed," he said. [inaudible] they were all killed. And Jan C., he did not want to talk about it. That is an image that happens a lot, that they just handed them over to the South Vietnamese, and they did whatever they wanted to do with them. And there was truth there, but- BF: Yeah [inaudible] MIA [inaudible] I debated on [inaudible] of the POW/MIA [inaudible] Vietnamese [inaudible]. If you had a choice between being captured by their side and captured by our side, which would you pick? And he was honest enough to move away from this whole area of discussion. SM: Oh, wow. He just very... Spitting Image is a book that comes out. And I have read it [inaudible] read it. Your thoughts on ... you mentioned just some commentary here, it is in the book. But why were the Vietnam veterans or people who fought in Vietnam the reason why the war ended? What did they do besides... I know they ended up writing and the other... BF: Yeah. I mean, it is there. It is documented in Vietnam [inaudible]- SM: Yeah, and we got the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, when they came back. BF: Well, Robert Heinl, writing in Armed Forces Journal, has quite a formative essay called The Collapse of the Armed Forces. And that is pretty accurate, because they were collapsing. And this is why Nixon ultimately had to withdraw the ground troops. The only units that were really capable of coherent playing at the level were [inaudible]. The conscript [inaudible] worse than useless, from a military point of view. They did not want to be there. They were largely [inaudible]. They wanted to come home alive. And you could write off, if you wanted to, the motivation of a lot of the people in the army in Vietnam who were actively against the war [inaudible] confusing [inaudible]. However, after [inaudible] and Nixon decided to switch the strategy to depend upon naval air power, we then had a revolutionary newspaper being published on every aircraft carrier [inaudible]. I cite in the book 1,500 members of the U.S.S. Constellation signed a petition to have Jane Fonda's FTA show brought onboard the carrier. Insurrections on ships, sabotage on ships, to the point that by October 1972, five aircraft carriers and their attending fleets had to be brought back to San Diego because they were unfit for combat, because of the anti-war activity in the fleet. And you cannot write off those guys as just trying to save their skins, because they were not in any danger. So why would they physically have taken action against the war? During the Christmas bombing, there were B-52 crews who refused to fly. Intelligence officials who were doing things like leaking the Pentagon Papers. So the students who were protesting on campus had limited means to really apply leverage. [inaudible] but the anti-war people in the Army, Navy and Air Force had a lot of leverage. SM: Is not it true that what was happening in Vietnam was happening in America, and that is the division between Black and white... there were those who said when they got into battle, that may have been a different story. They would fight to the end. But times when they were not in battle, the tensions of racism were still there, the drug culture. Everything that was happening in America was happening in the service, and that was part of the reason why it was going downhill. BF: But on the other hand, a lot of what was perceived was just the fact [inaudible] was not. A striking example was when a major ship... It was an aircraft carrier [inaudible] San Francisco. And a large number of crewmen refused to go aboard ship to go back to Vietnam. And there is a picture [inaudible]. They had their fists raised, like this. And the captain said, "[inaudible] crew members raised their fist in the Black Power symbol." But then you look at the picture, and a lot of the guys were white. So it was not a Black Power symbol. It was something else. SM: We got just a couple more minutes here. One of the basic questions I have tried to ask everyone... Well, there is two questions here. One is, and you may not want to answer this, because you do not believe in the generation concept, but if you were to define the generation, would you call them the Vietnam generation, the (19)60s generation, the Woodstock generation, the protest generation? [inaudible]- BF: It does not compute in my brain. SM: You said this era was so important culturally, and different than any other. In just a few words, how would you define the uniqueness of the culture during the era of the Vietnam War and the civil rights movements and the evolution of all these movements in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s? BF: Well, if you wanted to think of it in one particular word that pulls a lot of things together, I think it is the word liberation. And it is a word that was widely used then: women's liberation movement, Black liberation movement, People's Liberation Army. So going in many different areas, there was a sense of liberation from something. Obviously, you can see it in the music. Rock was perceived as liberating, whatever. I think a lot of people thought that some drugs were liberating. But then you have to be careful when you are talking about this, because even then, and certainly today, what is America's number one drug problem? It is not marijuana and it is not heroin and it is not cocaine. It was the same number one drug problem that led to... the 18th Amendment? [inaudible] prohibition. SM: [inaudible]- BF: So alcohol. If we want to talk about the destruction of families, domestic violence, violence on the highways, shattered lives, lost careers... But a certain amount of people have looked at marijuana at some point. Other people looking at LSD. I do not think they were looking at meth as [inaudible]. Anyway, so- SM: Were the movies and the TV shows liberating, or how about the media culture, all those? BF: Well, yeah, I mean, whether they were or were not, there is the perception, I think, of that. [inaudible] in a lot of different ways. It was not just people who were involved in the anti-war movement [inaudible] that time, people were being liberated from something about the conformist and oppressive culture that dominated in the (19)50s. SM: Of course, TV was another part of this generation. They saw everything, and they saw the war on TV. One of the questions that our students came up with when we went down to Washington... I think it was like the year before you came to our campus. Senator Muskie was still alive. [inaudible]... This is what they asked him. I have got this right here, or is it here? They wrote it here. We usually have a hard time finding this. Oh, okay. The students wrote this: "Do you feel boomers are still having problems with healing, due to the extreme divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, the divisions between Black and white, gay and straight, male and female, division between those who supported authority and those who criticized it, divisions between those who supported the troops and those who did not? What role did the Vietnam War play in healing the divisions, or was this primarily a healing for veterans? Do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? And are we wrong in thinking this way, or has 35, 40 years made the following statement true: time heals all wounds?" Your thoughts on whether we are a nation that cannot heal from all those divisions from that time, that maybe what we see today in our society is a lack of tolerance [inaudible] for other points of view, people do not want to work together. Do you see anything there? And a lot of these boomers are now going into senior citizen status. And I know we may not like to call them a generation, but the Civil War generation, a lot of them... because I have studied Gettysburg, and many of them never healed from that battle. BF: Well, again, I do not see this as being confined to a generation, because I think the chasms did open up in American society during this period in 1968 [inaudible] exposed [inaudible] most divisive events [inaudible]. I do not know if we can put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Certainly, today when we talk about red states and blue states, I mean, this is a pretty new concept, except that if you look at the red states, to a large extent, you are looking at lines that pretty much parallel the Civil War. SM: In fact, Muskie's response was, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And he would not even talk about anything else. BF: Yeah, but we have had a lot of elections since then which were landslides for one party or another party [inaudible] sections of the country voted the same way. You do not see that happening right now, although I think in 2008, it looked like maybe we were going to get out of this mess. Virginia, North Carolina voted for Obama. But since the Republican Party, I think accurately, decided that they had to destroy Obama in order to survive and flourish as a party, and then they kept developing a strategy based on that assumption, that those chasms have become much greater. I do not know if you have gone to any of the town hall meetings? SM: Yeah, with Senator Specter. BF: I do not know [inaudible]. SM: It was not fun. It was like they talked down to him, just like he was nobody. BF: [inaudible]- SM: Whether you like him or not, you do not treat a politician... Boy, it was unbelievable. BF: Yeah. Well, my wife went to one in Montclair, which is a very liberal town. And she said it was really scary, really scary. SM: So as Senator Gaylord Nelson said, people do not walk around with lack of healing on their sleeve, but he said it forever affected the body politic. And that is the way he responded. It has not healed within the body politic itself. BF: But I think the main thing that is going on now is more and more [inaudible]. I do not know what forces there are right now that are going to reverse that [inaudible]. SM: What are your thoughts on the Vietnam Memorial when you see it? Has it done the job of healing the nation in any way beyond the veteran community? What are your thoughts on that? What do you think of it? BF: Well, what I like about the Vietnam Memorial is that it does not glorify war. We have too many statues of people with swords on horseback. I guess it affects different people in different ways, but it is certainly not something which encourages militarism. On the other hand, what was... McNamara's estimate of the number of Vietnamese killed, 325,000 [inaudible] 250,000- SM: [inaudible]- (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with H. Bruce Franklin Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Franklin, H. Bruce (Howard Bruce), 1934- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Historians; Authors, American--20th century College teachers; Rutgers University; Franklin, H. Bruce (Howard Bruce), 1934--Interviews Description An account of the resource H. Bruce Franklin is an American cultural historian and scholar. He has received top awards in American Studies, science fiction, prison literature, and marine ecology. Franklin has written and edited nineteen books, three hundred professional articles, and has participated in several film productions. He was awarded the Pearson-Bode Prize for lifetime achievement in American Studies. Franklin currently is the Professor of English and American Studies at Rutgers University in Newark, New Jersey. He received his Bachelor's degree from Amherst College and his Ph.D. from Stanford University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-10 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.190 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 46:50 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e346c6dbb9c5700f12b3049719af353b.jpg d3c60a65f11236d381e4412dd6b0b0e5 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/701d506a875c8952152be82530c442cc.mp3 8c263f71197a48cb604d638922da3ede Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 1997-09-12 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dan Fraley Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-userformat="{"2":15171,"3":{"1":0},"4":[null,2,16777215],"9":0,"11":4,"12":0,"14":[null,2,0],"15":"Arial","16":11}" data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Dan Fraley is a veteran who served during the Vietnam War. He currently is the Director of the Veterans Affairs in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. "}">Dan Fraley is a distinguished Marine<span style="color: #202124; font-family: Thread-00002740-Id-00000072;"> </span>who served during the Vietnam War. For decades he has dedicated his life to serving Vietnam veterans, especially those who were exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam. He has been on a mission to make sure that these veterans know about their benefits related to this service. He is the founder and the current director of the Veterans Affairs in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. <br /><br /><br /></span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Baby boom generation; College anti-war protests; Civil Rights Movement; Questioning of authority; Emergence of a middle class; Lack of trust; Jane Fonda."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Vietnam War; Anti-war Movement; Baby boom generation; College anti-war protests; Civil Rights Movement; Questioning of authority; Emergence of a middle class; Lack of trust; Jane Fonda.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 125:55 Subject LCSH Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Fraley, Dan--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dan Fraley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fraley, Dan ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Vietnam War, 1961-1975--Veterans; Fraley, Dan--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dan Fraley is a distinguished Marine who served during the Vietnam War. For decades he has dedicated his life to serving Vietnam veterans, especially those who were exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam. He has been on a mission to make sure that these veterans know about their benefits related to this service. He is the founder and the current director of the Veterans Affairs in Bucks County, Pennsylvania. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1997-09-12 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.189a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.189b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 125:55 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ae9d2523e20822f41d9ce6801059fc20.jpg 5040c3664b2082ca0f379d96cd80e1bb https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/582f0dc1dfb9726946ed05ea82ddc3ea.mp3 6b22a061da4dc2e6b9b58ae70f29dfba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2003-08-07 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Edwin J. Feulner Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Edwin John Feulner is an author, journalist,administrator, educator, political scientist, government official, and the founder and former president of The Heritage Foundation. He was the president from 1977-2013 and from 2017-2018. Feulner received his Bachelor's degree in English from Regis College, his Master's degree in Business Administration from the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, and his Ph.D. from the University of Edinburgh."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Edwin John Feulner is an author, journalist, administrator, educator, political scientist, government official, and the founder and former president of The Heritage Foundation. He was the president from 1977-2013 and from 2017-2018. Feulner received his Bachelor's degree in English from Regis College, his Master's degree in Business Administration from the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, and his Ph.D. from the University of Edinburgh.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Anti-war Movement; Vietnam; lack of trust; Baby boom generation; Richard Nixon; Lyndon Johnson; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Democratic Convention of 1968"}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Anti-war Movement; Vietnam; lack of trust; Baby boom generation; Richard Nixon; Lyndon Johnson; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Democratic Convention of 1968</span> Subject LCSH Authors; Journalists; Political scientists; Public officers; Feulner, Edwin J.--Interviews Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 65:28 Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Ed Feulner Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 7 August 2003 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): No, not at all. EF (00:00:06): So I think with those you have got to make some differentiations there. In the sense poor Wes Marlin was given an impossible task because his commander in chief was micromanaging the war. Key, and who was the other one you mentioned? SM (00:00:25): General Cao Ky and General... President Thieu. EF (00:00:29): Why do not you just hang on the second because he has come back a couple of times. I want you to kill the interview. SM (00:00:33): Yeah. Okay, all right. There you go. EF (00:00:43): Ky and Thieu, well, patriots, anti-communists, working with a powerful ally again, which was restricting what they could do or what they wanted to do. Playing probably what was essentially a losing game all the way, but tragic basically, the word which comes to my mind for those two. SM (00:01:08): And then I have got two more names here and then we are basically done with one final question. Your thoughts on Ralph Nader. And I do not know if you know too much about Noam Chomsky. What do you think about the Noam Chomsky's of the world because he has been consistent? EF (00:01:26): Yeah right. Well, in a sense you have to admire Nader for sticking to his principles all of these years. Of course, I think he is totally wrongheaded in what he is trying to do. And maybe the word totally is too wrong, too strong rather. What I do not like about Nader is he tends to look always to the government to solve the problem. And I would like to be able to make it a more balanced approach to problem solving and not always look to the government first but look to government, if not last, at least next to last. Chomsky is an ideologue, of course. A man of the left who I think probably would not, even if you presented him with all the evidence in the world, would not change his position if it conflicted with one of his pet ideas and theories. Case in point, Alger Hiss, I am not sure whether he yet still admits that Alger Hiss was guilty of espionage. SM (00:02:53): The Berrigan brothers. EF (00:02:57): Yeah, sort of. Again, minor figures of the day, important at the time, believing they were doing the right thing. But I think probably in the greater scheme of things, I think someone like Thomas Merton is more important than the Berrigan brothers in terms of looking to Catholic models of the (19)60s. SM (00:03:36): And Benjamin Spock, Dr. Spock. EF (00:03:40): Right. Should have stuck to his babies. SM (00:03:48): I never asked about Norman Mailer. I will turn this off now. I am here with two questions. I know I said I am almost done but when the best history books are written, oftentimes the best history books are 50 years after the event. Some of the best books of World War II are now. When the best history books are written, say 25 years from now because we are halfway there on the boomer generation, what will their lasting legacy be in the history books? What will they be saying about that? EF (00:04:20): Well, I think they will be saying that it is one of the most influential generations of the 20th century and 21st century. Sometimes for good, but I think more often for ill. SM (00:04:45): And the very last question is this, and it was the last one I asked Dr. [inaudible]. The two events, the impact that these two events had on the psyche of all boomers, whether they were protestors or non-protestors, the events of the Kennedy assassination in 1963 and the deaths of the four students at Kent State in 1970. EF (00:05:11): Well, as I have already indicated, I think you are absolutely right, that became this period of a psychological of depression. This was the beginning of a trauma with the American psyche, with the boomers and with every other American, starting with the assassination. The famous thing that you ask people of a certain age, where were they at 1:30 on Friday on November 22nd, 1963, they will be able to tell you very precisely. So that will always remain with them and it certainly was the most important event. I do not know that the Kent State murders... SM (00:06:03): And I say Jackson State included in there a couple of weeks later too, six students. EF (00:06:07): I do not know that that was the second most important and defining moment of the (19)60s for the boomers. I do not know. I have to think about that. I might be more inclined to say, for example, just for political impact, the Chicago (19)68 convention. Maybe Dr. King's murder earlier that year. I do not know that that Kent State was that... I would not put it up that high. Certainly, if you want to talk about it being in the top 10 events, but not as number two. Certainly I think the Kennedy assassination was the preeminent event and trauma. SM (00:06:55): Is there a person that you thought I might ask about that I did not ask about that may surprise you? I had Barry Goldwater, conservative, I did not mention any other conservatives so to speak. Nelson Rockefeller, obviously, he is another person. He was my governor. Because that convention itself was something in (19)64. I thought that was an unbelievable convention. I will never forget it because Rocky was our governor and then Governor Scranton. That was one heck of a convention. EF (00:07:29): Surely was. Yeah. Well, I just think you probably could give some thought to maybe some other conservative figures of that time although not necessarily were boomers. But after all, you have to keep in mind Ronald Reagan did begin his political career in that decade. If you are looking for somebody who balanced off Herbert [inaudible] and you did not mention would be [inaudible]. Certainly Bill Buckley, that was the decade in which he began both his newspaper column and also his television program, Firing Line, both of which had major impacts of course in [inaudible] everything else that he was doing. SM (00:08:29): Has been on our campus too. I am a big Everett Dirksen fan so when I think of... And Hughes Scott, because Hugh Scott was from Pennsylvania. In fact we had a professor who was writing a... I do not know why he did not finish it. Dr. Meiswinkel was writing a biography on Hugh Scott and was actually going down visiting him when he was very sick. And then he died and he could not finish it. He did not get enough... Do you know if there has ever been a biography done? EF (00:08:55): I do not think everybody has ever written one on him. There have been a couple on Dirksen but I do not know. It seems to me there has been something on Scott but I could be wrong. Could be wrong. SM (00:09:07): He was on there a long time, distinguished senator. EF (00:09:10): There would not have been any Civil Rights Act in 1964 without Everett Dirksen, by the way. He was key to getting the Republicans support in the Senate for that act. SM (00:09:23): His daughter was married to Senator Baker I believe, and she died now he is married to Nancy [inaudible]. And now he is the ambassador to Japan. What a life he has lived. Well, I am basically done, I want to thank you very much. It has been an honor. EF (00:09:36): Very interesting and... EF (00:09:40): [inaudible] that there is a problem, a discussion and a solution all in a 30 second or a 30 minute, back then, time block on television. Now it is down to about two minutes on CNN or Fox News or whatever your choice is. And that is not necessarily the way the world works. I keep telling kids that instant gratification is not necessarily going to happen on your behest. So on the positive side, still a generation, I saw this both when I was in the Pentagon and subsequently on Capitol Hill and even now, young men and women willing to give their all for their country just as the world's greatest generation did in World War II. To use that [inaudible] phrase. And I am not sure it was, but anyway, that is a different question. Anyway, the point is, statistically [inaudible] to prove it but a willingness on the part of the majority, many people to really commit themselves and do what it takes to help others. Again, whether you are looking at the back end in terms of Vietnam or you are looking at the most recent end in terms of Afghanistan, Iraq or as I was two months ago up at the DMZ in Korea. So it is mixed like every generation is. SM (00:12:00): The anti-war movement, those who were involved, I have done a lot of studying of it and I am reading a lot of sociology books and the common term or number used is 15 percent of the boomers were probably involved in some sort of activism. 85 percent were not. And they were talking about civil rights and the women's movement, the anti-war movement and all the other movements that took place in that period. EF (00:12:23): Where do you put the conservative movement? Is that part of it? SM (00:12:27): Yes. I think yes it is because activism, as I define it, and if we try to do this at the university, that it is everyone. It is people who want to make a difference in this world. And that is how I define activism. I like your thoughts on the fact that when you study the (19)60s, the Young Americans Foundation was also an anti-war group and a recent book has been written on the fact that they were involved in the anti-war movement. And some conservatives were very upset that they were kind of excluded from books on the (19)60s talking about the anti-war movement. Your thoughts on the anti-war movement itself and the impact it had on ending the war and also the conservative students and adults who were involved in politics were also involved and very important involvement in the ending of the war. EF (00:13:26): By (19)69 I was working for [inaudible] the then secretary of [inaudible] and there was no question that the Nixon administration was trying to figure a way out of what they had inherited from LBJ in terms of the problems of Vietnam. The whole defense department program toward Vietnamization. The decision by Nixon after long and intense discussion both at the cabinet level and primarily under his I guess domestic policy advisor Martin Anderson at Hoover. SM (00:14:21): Oh yeah. I got his book. EF (00:14:23): In terms of ending the draft was certainly as much a concession to answering the objection that you were sending the children of working men and women to fight a rich man's war in Southeast Asia through the draft. Clearly, you cannot say that if people are there because it was an all-volunteer army. And it was as much, I hate to say it, Ernie and I would probably have a long debate about this, but he would say it was done for philosophical and principled reasons about objections to servitude or something. Well, maybe, but it was also an answer to a political problem that was out there. And so clearly the Nixon administration, both in those tactical responses to Vietnam and Southeast Asia, as well as more strategic, longer range... Changing the draft was certainly [inaudible] answers like opening to China. In effect, changing the subject. Putting America's policy into a broader kind of context. Even Kissinger, in his memoirs, talks about during the peace process, trying to find areas of agreement with the then Soviet Union to move ahead on because... I have to find a specific citation, but I am sure you can. Because of domestic political pressures. So there were certainly pressures there as from my perspective as a conservative, it was tough because again, I needed it from a question more of principle. Did I like the draft? No. Why did not I like the draft? Because I was a male age 27. No I did not like the draft because the draft in fact was based on a faulty premise. That the only way that a free society would defend itself is through conscription. I did not believe that. And so you go from that to a belief based on my first trip to Vietnam, advancing one of the early [inaudible] trips other than Secretary of Defense in 1969 to Vietnam. And seeing the situation and saying, well we got it right. Either Vietnam's got to be given the tools to do the job successfully on its own, or we got to go in there and do a lot more and do it a lot more quickly and a lot more effectively than we have been. Well the second option was instantly precluded by the politics back home. And it turned out that the first option started out and then Cooper Church and the other resolutions that went through the Congress eventually cut the money off so that you could not do it the other way in terms of Vietnamization effectively either. So then you ended up with, I saw on the history channel the other night, replaying the video tape of the helicopters taking the people off the roof of the American embassy in Saigon. SM (00:18:27): April 30th, 1975. Itis interesting when you look at the two dates, April 30th of 1970 was when the Cambodia invasion took place, when the President gave his speech at nine o'clock. And then interesting that five years later, that is to the day. And I do not know if... That was not planned. And the irony, I look at the irony in that and I think about it an awful lot because I was a senior in 1970 and our speaker was representing the United Nations. I was at State University of New York at Binghamton, and of course we had protests all the time. It was a liberal campus. But it was very hard to going into class that year because there was protests constantly and we had a lot of speakers on campus. When you look at the boomer generation, again, getting back to this whole business, the anniversary of Watergate is right now. And then you get the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution and young people at that time. And history has shown that that may have been not a real deal there. That may have been made up. Just the thoughts about the whole issue of leaders and trust and the lack thereof. You are in a very important position here with the Heritage Foundation and you work with conservative leaders all the time. I really would respect your point of views on the impact that you feel that President Johnson and President Nixon had in terms of what they did in America and the lack of trust that so many of the boomers had as they grew up and gone on to different kinds of positions and responsibility. Just the whole issue of trust in America. And have they passed this on, this lack of trust to their kids. And by lack of trust I mean trust in all leaders. EF (00:20:25): The complex question so the answer is not simple. Number one, it is always easier to Monday morning quarterback. But based on the knowledge, again, looked at from a low level political appointee inside the Pentagon, when we were talking about Vietnam under Nixon and I was out by the time Cambodia was back on Capitol Hill. We were certainly making decisions and explaining/justifying our actions based on the best knowledge we had. And if somebody was doing it to cover something up or to hide something, it was done at a lot higher pay grade than I had then. And when you talk about the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution or even some of the later justifications from the Nixon White House itself on Vietnam, I suppose it is easy today to look back and say, "Hey, how could they have been so wrong? Or how could they have been so deceitful?" Maybe. But I suppose I could also ask the same question about FDR and Pearl Harbor or going back through history at other examples that as a representative democracy we always assume people we elect have got a certain knowledge base that is more than what we have. So you have got to translate that. SM (00:22:31): Right. EF (00:22:34): Anyway, where was I? SM (00:22:38): Talking about trust. Talking about Nixon. Some of the things happening in the Nixon administration. EF (00:22:47): Looked at again, Monday morning quarterback, and you will get this, I think especially from a professional historian like Lee Edwards, the current generation that makes these sweeping criticisms and generalizations probably have read less history than just about anybody, any prior, whoever has in our country's history. And at the same time, because of TV and the internet now, know a little bit about a lot of things, a lot more things than you or I did when we were 20 or 25 years old. So it is kind of dangerous almost, I think to take some of these criticisms of earlier generations completely... Take them without a grain of salt. SM (00:23:58): I think when I refer to the lack of trust it is in reference truly to the boomers who are of college age or maybe just a spec older in the (19)60s and I would say through the mid-(19)70s. Because when you look at the numbers that were given by the Johnson administration and you read history books now and you read what was actually done there, I have a massive collection and I have done a lot of studying on it, but the more I know, the less I know. And that is so true. And the thing is here that I think you are right on track here with some people doing generalizations, but there definitely is a feeling from the peers that I grew up with, went to school with and actually worked with in a university environment, a lack of trust in anyone who was in a position responsibility. And I am wondering, and I say this only because I worry about the young people of today who are being given this information by their parents, whatever background they are, the boomer parents. And in this world, if you cannot trust someone, I know this some psychology. If you cannot trust somebody, you may not be a success in life. You have to trust people. And I worry, I see somebody's lack of trust of... It was very common, and this is not my interview, this is your interview, but it was very common on university campuses in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s that students did not trust university presidents. Did not trust their ministers. Did not trust corporate leaders. Did not trust anyone in a position of responsibility. And the excuse that was given as to the reason why they did not trust anyone, they would go back to Lyndon Johnson, Richard Nixon, Watergate. But much more than that, other political leaders too and things that university presidents did. So it is just your overall thoughts on that, the whole issue of trust, because I do not know if this is still happening in America today, but I sense it still is. EF (00:26:02): I do not know. You have a better handle on it in your day to day dealings with young people. We have obviously here, [inaudible] very active interns but they are a self-selecting group in terms that they tend to be right or at least center right and more traditionalist. So we are probably not as exposed to it as you are. What does concern me whenever I run into it is that as I look at the development of society and of both the social order and foundation, the most fundamental underpinning that I have been able to come up with is basically the rule of law. Which means every individual treated the same under the rule of law. And this goes directly to your point in terms of trust. If a large part of the upcoming generation does not trust the older ones, then they probably tend to think they are getting the short end of it. And if they are getting the short end of it, they might as well go for as much as they can for themselves because otherwise somebody is going to screw them down the road. Pardon, vernacular. So if what you are saying is really a generalized truth, then yeah, we got some real serious problems. But again, I do not see it reflected. Adam Smith said in the Wealth of Nations, it is one of my... I am a congenital optimistic in Washington. But he said in the Wealth of Nations there is a lot of ruin in a nation. And when you think about going back to the days of the founding fathers, down through our history of the heartbreak of the Civil War, the losses sustained in the First World War, the depression, we built up a hell of a lot of capital that I would worry that, to a certain extent, we have run down in the last generation. That concerns me. How generalized it is, I just do not know. SM (00:28:48): And that refers back to the boomers then. EF (00:28:49): Yeah. Back to whether the boomers trust or not and whether they have then conveyed a lack of trust to a subsequent generation. As I say, I worry about it if it is as generalized as you might portray it as or as other people might think it is. SM (00:29:08): When you look at the (19)60s and early (19)70s and the boomer generation of all the movements that took place, whether it be civil rights, anti-war, if you were to write a book or write a chapter or an essay to write a movement or an event that really defined the period, what would that be? There is many things, but one that just stood out. EF (00:29:34): I suppose the Democratic Convention in (19)68. That political dimension, a protesting dimension in terms of the anti-war, it was wrapped up to a certain extent, at least in the reaction from Mayor Daley and the police in terms of civil rights. Certainly as a conservative at the time, I remember thinking to myself, the Democrats sowed the wind and now they are reaping the rewards. But the ramifications of course were far beyond the Democratic Party. SM (00:30:29): I remember that so clearly. I remember buying My Life magazine and it was that picture of Hubert Humphrey and Ed Musky. And I have Barry Goldwater when he was with a horse wearing a hat. And I have both of them framed in my office because I am all about the (19)60s no matter who was involved in the (19)60s. You want to go on the other [inaudible] the Vietnam War really did a lot to divide our nation. Some of the people that I have interviewed really felt that outside of the Civil War, which is obviously one of the greatest strategies ever in our country, that we were pretty close to another civil war breakup of our nation back in the (19)60s. And so I would like your thoughts on that particular feeling and whether we as a nation have really healed since that time. I remember I interviewed Gaylord Nelson quite a few years ago one of my first interviews. And he said, Steve, I do not see anyone walking around Washington DC with healing, lack of healing on their sleeve or something like that. And people are... He was making a general comment. But then he said to me, the body politic will never be the same. And I would just like your thoughts on the divisions were so... Have they healed? Is Vietnam still, just the word, the mention of the word Vietnam brings all kinds of feelings to people. And it is not just thinking about the nation, it is what it meant to our country. Have we healed? EF (00:32:22): Yes. I think we have fundamentally healed, partly at least because the scar tissue is both thicker and because again, going back to the point where with the short time horizons of individuals, whether it is... I was talking to a conservative journalist this morning who said, I am so glad Schwartz never vote in the race. And I said, why? He said, because I do not have to hear about that damn Kobe Bryant every day. Until a week ago I did not even know who the devil Kobe Bryant is. And now he is every minute 200 news guys in some place [inaudible] Colorado or Esquire, Colorado, whatever it is called. What kind of trivialization of what is going on is this? And so you get the new cycle, et cetera, you got to fill it. And either you fill it the way CNN did until recently. Every Saturday afternoon, if you turned on CNN to find out what is going on in the world, you get 45 minutes on the latest French fashions or something like that because there just is not enough there, there is always news. So you get Kobe Bryant given this kind of prominence and in effect the same level of prominence as Colin Powell giving a major foreign policy speech to the UN or something. And if they both get 30 minutes of prime time over three consecutive days... Or more likely Kobe Bryant will get it and Colin Powell will not. Things are getting distorted and they are off kilter. And so I think that it is a couple of things. You get trivialization at that level. Then you got a shallow understanding what history is about. So a lot of people talk about Vietnam and well, that is a war that happened a long time ago. There is another place in Asia there too. What was that one called? Korea or something. And they are all kind of about the same time. So yeah, in terms of kind of looked at today, it is all... It is healed, but part of the reason that it is healed is because again, I said it about 15 minutes ago, I think that this generation just does not know as much history and has not read as much history as they should have. This same journalist, the guy we are buying the house from, was giving away a bunch of books and a bunch of college students... He brought them into his office and a bunch of college students they started pouring through them. And one of them came on a book called The Real Anita Hill. And she looked at them and said, who was Anita Hill? This is only 10 years ago. This is not ancient history like Vietnam or Korea. This is 10 years ago. Who is Anita Hill? SM (00:35:52): Unbelievable. I interviewed Dr. Hilty, he is head of the history department at Temple and he was really strong against the boomer. He is a liberal. Big Kennedy liberal. But very condemning against the boomers because he feels that the boomers were the generation that got the greatest education, Master's, but they do not have a whole lot of knowledge. And I never thought of that. I said their lack of understanding... They may be getting the degrees, but their depth of analysis, I am just like, how do you teach today? I am reading books on education, the proper way of teaching. It is not just always getting the high SAT scores and getting your school scores up. How do students think and analyze these things. When you are working with young people and they are reading things, how are they interpreting it and analyzing it? It is not just a score on an SAT question. And so there are some interesting things here and your observation is very good. Your thoughts on the Vietnam Memorial? I think it is one of the greatest things ever. How the Vietnam Memorial, when it was built in (19)82 and the effect this had on veterans and on the nation. Just your thought on the wall. EF (00:37:04): Very moving. Interesting that by the time it was really finished, in place and people saw it-it did what scrubs and everybody else wanted it to do in terms of healing. But during the whole course of it, when whatever her name was [inaudible] divisive, a stab through the heart of America with this black slab and all that. The rhetoric that went up about what it was. But today, to go there and to see some of my friends and contemporaries' names on the list as I have and to think about what it represents. Very moving. So it worked. SM (00:38:11): What would your thoughts be if you were sitting in a room with boomers and they were to say to you, we were the most unique generation in American history? EF (00:38:18): Bullshit. SM (00:38:19): Okay, because a lot of boomers felt that way when they were young. EF (00:38:26): Yeah. They were certainly the most pampered. After all our parents, and here I guess I would put myself in the boomer generation, they had gone through the depression. They vowed basically that we would be able to have more than they had. And this goes to Hilty's point at Temple. In terms of the best education possible. My father barely got himself through high school with a family, then went to college and almost got a law degree at night school. You will not have to do that. He said to me and my three sisters. None of us did. We were well-educated and that was very-very important. And then to have the earlier generation be basically so disappointed, I guess in their offspring as to have them copping out or doing drugs, to whatever extent that happened [inaudible]. That is disillusioning. And to have them just not appreciate what happened and then assume that because they got that again, that the notion of instant gratification is going to work for them and their kids. SM (00:39:54): Your thoughts, you have some fine, outstanding, young conservative youth here that work in the internship program. The sense that I have had and my peers is that when you look at the boomer generation, they again talk about the most unique generation of American history. Also, there is an attitude that we are going to change the world. We are going to make society better for everyone. We are going to end racism, sexism, or homophobia, everything they were going to end at all because they were the most unique generation. And they were also a very involved generation in the vote. But now we see a group of young people today that do not vote. And this is something I just wanted... I do not know if you have thought about this at times, I just sometimes sit in a park and why do today's young people and the boomers themselves, the parents, they do not vote. What is going on here? What have they transferred on to their kids with respect to the sense of empowerment? Their voice counts. They need to be heard. It worries me as a person. I have come up with several worries here in our interview, and that is another worry that I have because I want young people to know that they are empowered, that they do have a say, that their voice does count. So what happened to the boomer parents who were involved in these protests and activism changing things. And a lot of them did good things and some were just in it for themselves, but what have they done to their kids? Just your thoughts on that. EF (00:41:27): Well, you are better off asking them, I guess because our family, at least our nuclear family, in terms of my wife, myself, my kids and their spouses are very much involved politically and I think it has been transmitted. I suppose part of it is that frustration you talked about earlier from the earlier generation, from the boomers, that either they were not heard in terms of their cause. Maybe even it is a little bit embarrassing if anybody ever dares use that word anymore. Some of the excesses going way back when. In terms of the new generation, I would have to look at polls. I know what the broad numbers are in terms of the voter participation, but I would want to look at cross tabs in terms of the ones who are most committed to either a political party or a philosophy or an ideology of government, if you will, in terms of whether those who are most committed are more politically active. I have a good libertarian friend who has a bumper sticker that says, do not vote, it only encourages them. Well, this is a guy who comes at that decision from basically a philosophical perspective and managed to put it on a bumper sticker and you can understand that. That is not the way conservatives think, I do not think, but some libertarians do. And so it is not a case of just disinterest on the first Tuesday of November it is a case of... (00:43:35): In that case it is a conscious decision but I suppose again, you have the usual frustration or I am only one, why does it matter? Well, after Florida I think that is a non-argument anymore. Clearly everybody ought to know that their participation does matter. You can see that in the California recall that happened in October [inaudible] and you end up with whoever it was, Schwarzenegger on one side or the lieutenant governor on the other side [inaudible] being elected with 10 percent of the eligibles or something like that. In the fifth largest economy in the world, the largest state in the nation et cetera, et cetera, being elected by 1 percent of the eligible population. That is not exactly a mandate to go in there and straighten things out, whoever you are. I am not saying that is what happened [inaudible]. So does it worry me? Yeah, because again, and this go back to your earlier point in terms of trust and confidence in our systems. If there is not confidence in the political system, then confidence, again, the most fundamental thing in terms of the rule of law breaks down. Because if there is no legitimacy for the politicians, then there is no legitimacy in terms of what they are doing. Which means that people do not want to be governed by whatever laws they are passing. And that is not good for long term. SM (00:45:20): This is my last question before I get into personalities and that is, what do you think the lasting legacy will be of the boomer generation? When the best history books are written, and we are only 25 years out now from the Vietnam War and the best history books are often 50 years later, after an event. What do you think? How will history interpret this generation, this boomer generation? EF (00:45:41): Now a group of... On the one hand it could be a group of spoiled adolescents trying to feel their way out of a complicated situation by self-gratification. On the other hand, in a deeper sense, the people who did think they could change the world and do it... Every generation thinks it can change the world but here, I think you are on to something. The boomer generation thought it could change the world almost by themselves. Whereas in World War II you did it as part of the army, part of the Navy, you worked for big Bill Donovan at the OSS and later the CIA. Man, you were part of a team. But by the time of the boomers, you were kind of in a do it on your own more or less. So an individualistic way of expressing generally some high moral concerns. For that I recognize my colleagues on the other side of the political arena, but I also recognize my friends on our side who kind of came of political age and said, Hey, there has to be a better way to answer these social problems than the LBJ SDR big government one. SM (00:47:49): I at least remember a poster that I had on my door at Ohio State University when I was in grad school. Peter Max was very popular back then. And I will never forget it. I wish I would kept it, but it stuck in my mind. It basically said, you do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should get together. It will be beautiful. If by chance... EF (00:48:14): We get together. SM (00:48:16): Because it is interesting if by chance. And as a young person, as a boomer, that is sounded great for the time. But when you reflect on it, if by chance you have to work together in this world not hope that we just come together by circumstance. So anyway, I have a list of names here. I would just like some brief comments. These are all people from the period, Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. EF (00:48:50): What do you want, one-word reaction? SM (00:48:53): Yeah, just your thoughts on the... EF (00:48:54): Traitors. SM (00:48:57): Lyndon Johnson. EF (00:49:03): Manipulative, clever and self-righteous. SM (00:49:16): Bobby Kennedy. EF (00:49:25): Cynical with a tinge of idealism. Cynical, going back to his days with Joe McCarthy, the senator. SM (00:49:35): John Kennedy. EF (00:49:39): Idealistic, almost naive... Idealistic, almost naive with a silver spoon, maybe brought on further and faster certainly than he otherwise would have, but maybe even further and faster than he should have. SM (00:50:15): Huey Newton, Bobby Seal on the Black Panthers. EF (00:50:19): In the overall scheme of things, irrelevant. At the time, strange and so far outside the mainstream it was hard to... SM (00:50:32): Go right into the Abby Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. EF (00:50:41): Flash in the pans. SM (00:50:49): Barry Goldwater. EF (00:50:50): An idealistic trendsetter who never admitted to the limitations of politics. Certainly had an impact beyond his electoral politics. SM (00:51:18): Richard Nixon. EF (00:51:24): Deep global strategist with the fatal flaw that prevented him from really effectively doing what he was elected to do. He did not trust the people. Never did. SM (00:51:49): Your thoughts on his enemy's list. EF (00:51:53): Everybody has one, whether they write it down or they just keep it mentally. And his more graphic and in a way, almost more simplistic. SM (00:52:07): [inaudible] EF (00:52:22): A competent administrator of Baltimore County who then was rapidly beyond his level of competence. SM (00:52:31): Timothy Leary. EF (00:52:40): A person whose influence was far beyond what it should have been but who... At the same time, I guess if his intended audience had been better grounded, he would have been as irrelevant as he should have been but he was not always. SM (00:53:13): Martin Luther King. EF (00:53:21): A visionary dreamer who apparently had some personal flaws. But guess we all do. But who also had a big picture in terms of solving some very real problems in a non-violent way. SM (00:53:47): Malcolm X. EF (00:53:54): Malcolm X... Hello. Okay, be with him in a minute. Bye. (00:53:57): Malcolm X. The wrong kind of role model. Malcolm X [inaudible] of Chicago. SM (00:54:10): George McGovern. EF (00:54:18): A man who believed deeply and compassionately about a lot of things but alas, was wrong. But who certainly built a dedicated cadre of followers no unlike [inaudible] George Goldwater. SM (00:54:50): Robert McNamara. EF (00:54:52): A technocrat who never understood that people are not cogs and a big machine. SM (00:55:01): George Wallace. EF (00:55:06): A nasty piece of work without principles or morals. SM (00:55:11): Daniel Elsberg. EF (00:55:11): A man who deserted the truth that he should have known for lesser political interest. SM (00:55:34): Jerry Ford. EF (00:55:38): A great congressman from the district of Michigan, who by accident ended up where he was and tried to do a job that even today is... He was fundamentally decent to people I know. He got thrown a delta, a rough deck when he got to the top. SM (00:56:06): Hubert Humphrey. EF (00:56:09): Idealistic and intellectual, but unrealistic in terms of what human response would be to [inaudible]. SM (00:56:29): Muhammad Ali. EF (00:56:30): [inaudible]. SM (00:56:44): Gloria Steinem and Betty Fordan, and the women's movement leaders. EF (00:56:55): Inconsistent, hypocritical and not clearly thought through in terms of what their real objectives were. SM (00:57:18): I got four more here and that is Ralph Nader. EF (00:57:25): A man who tried to do some effective things but always pushed too far in terms of using coercion to achieve his objectives. So when he got to the point of curbs and things like that and compulsory student fees, instead of battling reasonable things like... SM (00:57:54): Down to our last three. EF (00:57:57): [inaudible] bumpers, et cetera. Yes... I want to apply for a city [inaudible]. I think I told Kathy, anybody from any bank that calls or anything with my mortgage is coming up she better put them through. SM (00:58:14): This is just a generalization now, but the music of the (19)60s. The Jimmy Hendrix, the Janice Joplins, the Beatles, the music, the influence that that music had on this generation as opposed to any other. EF (00:58:26): I do not know if it is the Beach Boys, I like it. If it is the Beatles, I do not understand it. So yeah, it is kind of mixed. I guess it is like all music. But if, like you were saying about history before, let us look back on it in 50 years and see what is still there. SM (00:58:47): Yeah. Cause you got Janet Joplin, when you think of the (19)60s, you think of Joplin, Hendricks and Bob Dylan and Joan Baez and the list goes on and on. EF (00:58:54): Yeah, [inaudible] trio. SM (00:58:57): John Dean. EF (00:59:00): A man uncertain loyalty to... Well, just stop there. I never understood him. SM (00:59:08): And I am going to conclude with this. These are just terms of the period and just quick, SDS. Quick response. EF (00:59:26): Yeah. Perverted political agenda, trying to be imposed by compulsory means, which went against what their principles were supposed to be. Never quite understood how they got there. SM (00:59:48): Counterculture. EF (00:59:53): Sad because our traditional culture has got so much to offer why do you need one. SM (01:00:01): The Pentagon papers. EF (01:00:05): So what. SM (01:00:06): The Chicago Eight. EF (01:00:16): Representative of, as I said earlier, that incredible incident in the middle of that time period that tried to unhinge or destabilize a lot of what... A lot of our whole society, so not much sympathy. I do not know what they think their justification was. SM (01:00:47): And the last one is kind of a combination of three people. It is if you can put William Westmorland, President Thieu and General Cao Ky because Ky and Thieu were the leaders of Vietnam and Westmorland was [inaudible] Maxwell Taylor. EF (01:01:10): Man who tried to accomplish a mission without appropriate political backing from the United States' top officials in government. Therefore, without the backing of the US people he tried to carry out their orders as best he could. SM (01:01:34): I want to conclude on... First, I want to thank you very much. I admire what you do. I admire your organization. I am going to see Mr. Edwards next and we will hopefully continue to bring our students down here. The last question... There we go. EF (01:01:53): The Kennedy assassination did not start the (19)60s. The (19)60 election really did because JFK proved that the accepted order of vice president succeeding president was not necessarily the way things are going to go. And I think in retrospect that was almost more profound than the fact that Kennedy was a Catholic and proved that a Catholic could be elected. So I think that was a real turning point. But what the Kennedy assassination did for those of us who were around and affected by it was, it was a shock to the moral order of things that something like this could happen in this day and age. It meant that in effect nothing was sacred. That the highest elected person in the country could be zapped by a crazy guy down in Dallas. It was a shock to the body, I do not know about the body politic, but to the whole American society that had its reverberations for a long time. And I guess probably, in some respects foresaw then what was going to happen with Martin Luther King, with Bobby Kennedy and on and on. Attempted assassination on Reagan [inaudible]. Even I suppose you could, in that respect, almost link it to 9/11 and real traumas to the American system. And in that respect, it shook things up and helped... It made things unglue and we lost our compass for a while. And that one lasted longer than most. Kent State, I guess was I would describe as more a tragedy than a shock because Americans shooting Americans not in terms of stopping a prison outbreak or in terms of going back a hundred years plus then to the Civil War, but in basically a much more peaceful environment that just never should have happened. And I guess my problem to the whole reaction of the Kent State thing is that men are not angels and so we are not going to always do... Men who are in authority. Men who are in authority are not always going to do the right thing. Hopefully most of the time, under most circumstances they will, but not always. And so how do you make it happen more often rather than less often? At Kent State it sure did not. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Ed Feulner Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Feulner, Edwin J. ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Authors; Journalists; Political scientists; Public officers; Feulner, Edwin J.--Interviews Description An account of the resource Edwin John Feulner is an author, journalist, administrator, educator, political scientist, government official, and the founder and former president of The Heritage Foundation. He was the president from 1977-2013 and from 2017-2018. Feulner received his Bachelor's degree in English from Regis College, his Master's degree in Business Administration from the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, and his Ph.D. from the University of Edinburgh. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2003-08-07 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.188a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.188b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 65:51 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/6fbe2d2fd56556b3c9e1fb1fdd4ae7a4.jpg 5564a6886eda460d68d2f68127807c4e https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f80337dfb556193025186af3ad2b6d97.mp3 c1e8dc7ee92d39745e4c49f80cd31d30 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-06-29 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michelle Easton Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Michelle Easton is the president and the founder of the Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute. She was appointed a position at the U.S. Department of Education previously served as the President of the State Board of Education in Virginia. Easton received her Bachelor's degree in Development Psychology from Briarcliff College in New York and graduated law school at American University's Washington School of Law. "}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":13311,"3":{"1":1},"4":[null,2,4884200],"5":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"6":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"7":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"8":{"1":[{"1":2,"2":0,"5":[null,2,0]},{"1":0,"2":0,"3":3},{"1":1,"2":0,"4":1}]},"9":0,"10":2,"11":4,"12":0,"15":"Arial","16":10}">Michelle Easton is the president and the founder of the Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute. She was appointed to a position at the U.S. Department of Education and previously served as the President of the State Board of Education in Virginia. Easton received her Bachelor's degree in Development Psychology from Briarcliff College in New York and graduated law school at American University's Washington School of Law. </span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{"1":2,"2":"Feminist Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Anti-war Movement; Baby boom generation; Free-speech; failures of the Modern Feminism; Civil Rights Movement; N.O.W."}" data-sheets-userformat="{"2":513,"3":{"1":0},"12":0}">Feminist Movement; Women's Rights Movement; Nineteen sixties; Anti-war Movement; Baby boom generation; Free-speech; failures of Modern Feminism; Civil Rights Movement; N.O.W.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 122:19 Subject LCSH Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute; United States--Officials and employees; Easton, Michelle--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Michelle Easton Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 29 June 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: Well, I have to keep checking this too, to make sure it is going. So, I guess the first question I always ask is, describe a little bit about your upbringing, your growing up years, the influence of your parents, the high school years and the college years. What helped make you who you are, basically, from the early years? ME: I was born in Philadelphia, where my father was attending the University of Pennsylvania. When I was six months old, my father was recalled in the US Naval Reserve and sent to Alaska. And as soon as the doctor allowed, my mother took me and the other two siblings at that point to Seward, Alaska for three and a half years. I was real little. I do not remember much. I think I remember mostly the pictures. But I feel this kinship with Sarah Palin, because when I read her book Going Rogue, her love of Alaska, it was like mom and dad talking. They loved it so much. They would have stayed after Daddy got out of the Navy, but it was not even a state. They did not have schools. It was very, very primitive. But they loved the land and loved the people. So, then we came back to Philly. Daddy got a job in New York City, and I started school in Rye, New York. A wonderful little K-6. What you have to pay 25,000 for now in a private school. It was a time when most parents shared values. There were not all these controversies in school. And the emphasis was English, math, science, history, but a little bit of music, a little bit of art, and a little bit of PE. Life was simpler then. Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, mother was home, daddy worked. There was one more sister after, so there were three girls and a boy in the family. It was the era when dad worked, and mom took care of the kids. Dad continued Naval reserve, so he was gone one or two nights a week for that. He continued his education, getting very close to a PhD at NYU, but in the end, none of his professors spoke English, he could not understand them, and he did not get it. Wonderful, solid, all-American kind of family life. Ups and downs, always, ups and downs. But grandparents coming by once or twice a year, and aunts and uncles, lots of friends. Life centered around school and church and neighborhood. SM: Were there any teachers? I found that some people there is somebody who... You always hope when you are a young person, that there is somebody that takes an interest in you beyond your parents, whether it be a minister in your church or a preacher, rabbi, or whatever, or a teacher that sees you and kind of guides you, inspires you. Were there any teachers in your life, either in high school or at Briar Cliff? ME: Actually, the teachers I remember the most are elementary school. They were these wonderful, for the most part, maiden ladies whose lives back then were devoted to their jobs, and they were very serious about every child learning and being the very best educated they could be. Junior high school, I remember as almost a total waste until ninth grade, when they put children of equal ability in classes, because they took six elementary schools, the children of very widely varying ability and children could not read with seventh graders that were a 10th grade level. This was the modern notion that we will mix all the kids together, and then they will all learn from each other, but it does not work that way. If some children are so far ahead of others, they just have to drag along and do nothing. So that was a total waste. But then by ninth grade, they started to put us into class according to abilities. Went to a good public high school, Port Chester High School, where you could be a serious student if you wanted. Back then in New York State, we had very rigorous Regents Examinations. SM: Yeah, I am from New York State. ME: I remember getting a 90 in English in 11th grade, that was when they gave you English, and being so proud. That really meant that you knew your English. It was before exams were dumbed down and everybody did well. And it was a good high school. There were kids who were serious about school. Some of them were interested in sports. Some were only interested in sports. There was hoods, the bad kids back then. I graduated in (19)68. The hoods. But even then, the hoods did not use four letter words and curse out the teachers, it was just a tougher kind of group. And there was a huge group that did vocational education. They were not going to be able to go on to higher education, so they learned to be secretaries or auto mechanics. It was simpler. It was simpler. And I grew up in a family where my dad said, socially, there is two kinds of girls, those who do and those who do not. You can decide what kind you want to be. And most guys want to marry girls who do not, so it was not so complex. The popular culture was not such a huge influence like it is on the kids today. And then I went off to Briar Cliff, a woman's college. To be honest, I probably would have gone to Colby in Maine, I loved Maine, or a co-ed school somewhere, but my father thought that would be better for me because I would be close to home. It was all girls. It was a good program. And turned out he was right. And since I have learned that a lot of women who later have become leaders in different ways went to all girls’ schools. It is one less thing for girls to be worrying about. You go out on the weekend, and you have your social life, but I am a big fan of single sex education for those who want it. Not everybody. Not everybody. But of course, the government has tried to abolish it at VMI and the boys and the girls’ schools when the government's involved in anyway. SM: When did you know that you were going... We define women sometimes as being liberal or conservative. When did you know you were a conservative? Was there something that was happening in the world or in America that turned you a certain direction? ME: It was when Goldwater ran for president in 1964, and I was 14. It was really the first time my family had gotten involved in politics. My father, having come from a military background, tend to, at least they used to, step out of politics and be sort of neutral. But my mother and father were so excited that here was this man running for president who was articulating the things they felt about too much government taxes, worries about Social Security going bankrupt, worries about us not being strong enough militarily, basically libertarian economic policy and a sensible foreign policy, that is what Goldwater was. And of course, back then you had no talk radio. There were a couple in New York mom used to listen to, but you did not have Rush, you did not have Sean, you did not have Fox News, you did not have the internet, you did not have drudge. And really Goldwater running was the first time for a lot of Americans that they began to hear some of these conservative ideas. The campaign itself was an education. And of course, he lost quite badly, but it was really the start, I think, of the modern conservative movement, which has been most all my personal and professional life since then. SM: I still remember that being on TV, because I was always watching the... Actually, from (19)52 on, I was a little boy, I watched all these conventions. But I remember the battle between Barry Goldwater and Nelson Rockefeller and Governor Scranton of Pennsylvania. You saw within the Republican party the split, liberal/conservative. ME: Right. You did. And it remains in a way today, but not nearly as much. I mean, most Republicans are conservative, or pretend to be. SM: One of the things... I wrote this down here. What was it about your early years where you recognized conservative women were placed at the back burner as opposed to liberal women? What was the magic moment, so to speak of, when you knew that people who thought more conservatively were not getting the ear that liberal women were getting, or the breaks or whatever? Was there some incident? ME: Well, I think it was more cumulative. When I came to Washington in 1973, and it was to work for Young Americans for Freedom, [inaudible] the successors of that now. And I was conservative in a traditional philosophical sort of way, but I started to notice how the media especially, and the popular culture, gave all these praise to women's groups like the National Organization for Women and other groups later, The Feminist Majority, but they did not represent all women, they only represented left wing feminists, sometimes radical feminists, sometimes socialist views. How come they were called the women's groups when here I was, this conservative woman, working so hard? Who represented me? And to this day, you could probably open the Washington Post one day this week, and it will say, " So-and-so is very concerned about women's issues, blah, blah," and then they start to list all these left-wing positions on everything from taxes and daycare and right to life and whatever. That has stuck to this day. So, for me, I think it was going to college, coming to town, beginning to work my professional life, and hearing about the women's groups and what they thought. But it was not all women, it was only liberal left-wing women. SM: Were there any conservative women's groups at that time? ME: Well, there were a couple, but they were not as well known, certainly, and they did not get much coverage in the media. But I guess Phyllis Schlafly had begun her Eagle Forum. SM: The Eagle Forum, right. ME: That was a key one. And of course, there were many religiously oriented conservative groups within churches and denominations, but not really. And so that is how somehow, shooting ahead 20 years after I came here, 1993, when I founded this institute after having served President Reagan and the first President Bush, what is the real need? What is the real need in America? Well, it was to have an organization. And by that time, there were a couple of others that represented and promoted and celebrated these great conservative women leaders, some of whom you have at The Calendar, and used them as role models for young women. When I was in college, there were no conservative role models, except within my family, or perhaps within the church. Clare Boothe Luce was out there, but there is so many outstanding conservative women leaders who were never celebrated, who were never highlighted, who were never given as role models, and still are not in 99.9 percent of the universities, the women's studies programs. Come on, it is not women, it is liberal women. It is feminist women. It is radical socialist women It is not conservative women. They never study any of these women. They do not read the books of Ann Coulter or Michelle Malkin, they do not have Bay Buchanan come. That is why we exist. We send them to a campus so that a different point of view can be heard. SM: Just like the Young American [inaudible]. ME: Right. Our focus is solely women, there is-is more general. So, I do not know if that is a magic moment, but it was like, hey, wait a minute, these are the women's groups? They do not represent me. They do not represent the people I know, the people I work with, people in my family, people in my church. How do they get away with being called the women's groups? And it happens to this day. SM: That is a magic moment. Because you realized from your early experiences coming here, and I am going to ask you more questions about the Young Americas Foundation. Not Young Americas Foundation, the- ME: Young Americas for Freedom. SM: Yeah, Young Americas for Freedom. ME: [foreign language]. SM: Because Lee Edwards, who I interviewed a couple years back, said this group has been excluded from the history books in many respects in terms of the anti-war movement, because they were conservative, but they were against the war. And it is all about SDS. It is about the Weathermen. ME: We were against the draft. The service did not believe it. SM: I have some questions about that coming up, but I think it is important that when you were young, you saw something that was lacking, and this is a great experience for young people, and it inspired you to create something. ME: It is really true. And it reflected how lonely it could be as a young conservative woman on campus, and then even coming to town. I had lots of friends and lots of people promoting me in different ways, but not as a woman. The women's groups let you know in every way possible if you want to be successful, and they do this to the girls at school, I think, in some ways, in colleges, you either need to be liberal or you need to be quiet. And when you see the treatment of some of the conservative women, the way they scorn culture, the way they mock Palin, the way they put down Michelle Malkin, the way they sneer at Michele Bachmann, the congresswoman from Minnesota. Not much has changed. SM: One of the things when I interviewed Phyllis Schlafly at the CPAC Conference, she gave me graciously an hour. I know she as very tired, but- ME: Look in the middle. SM: Yep, there she is. ME: She speaks for us sometimes too. She is 85. Look at that. Isn’t that amazing? 85, there amongst the 20, 30-year-olds, holding her own. SM: I think what was interesting is at CPAC she was very tired. I do not know if you noticed it. ME: She was tired. SM: I asked her assistant, said, "Yeah, this has been very tiring for her this time." ME: She had-had an accident about two CPACs ago, and she had fallen right before it and broken her hip. But she recovered very-very quickly. SM: Well, one of the things she said to me, she said, "The troublemakers of the (19)60s and early (19)70s are now running today's universities. They are running the women's studies, Black studies, gay and lesbian studies, Asian studies, Native American studies, and environmental studies." She was making reference that all of these studies are basically run by liberals. You believe that? ME: I do. I believe they are a way to promote liberal and left-wing ideas. And it is the way they use women, women's issues, they use women as a cover to promote left wing and liberal ideas. It does not have much to do with women at all, it is really sort of a dishonest thing that they do. SM: When we talk about the movements, we all know about the civil rights movement that was in the (19)50s and the (19)60s, and it was kind of a role model for all the other movements, and the anti-war movement too. Even Gaylord Nelson, when he was alive, when I interviewed him, said that the civil rights movement was the role model for us in terms of the teachings. The anti-war movement also helped. But what are your thoughts on all these movements that kind of evolved at the end of the (19)60s and early (19)70s? The women was based on sexism, because women were not treated equally in civil rights or basically hardly any of these movements were they treated equally. And are conservative women, and conservatives as a whole, linked, maybe not to now, but in any of these other movements? ME: I guess I would perhaps dispute that the woman's movement was based on sex discrimination and equality and law. I believe the suffragette movement, the original suffragettes, were seeking equality under the law so that men received the same rights as women. And what a tremendous success that has been. But I think in the (19)60s, as I was coming of age, what happened is that original movement for equity under the law shifted. I mean, there was an anti-war movement, there was an anti-government mood, and it shifted this woman's movement from basically what we had achieved, which was equal rights under the law, not that it's perfection, but it is the best place in the world for that, to this feminist, which was a sort of an anti-male, a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle, anti-American, anti-free enterprise for sure, and that was the liberalism and the leftism and the socialism, and anti-religious, all religious people are hypocrites and bigots. It shifted the original suffragette movement, which was in fact about equity under the law, to this really left-wing movement, which was just developing when I was in college in (19)68 to (19)72. I do not know if you remember, but I remember the early feminists, the radical feminists, the thing was to take off their bras and burn them. Bra burners. Remember that? SM: I remember there was something in a Miss America Contest in Atlantic City. ME: They protested the beauty pageants because it objectified women, as if they are discussing plays like the Vagina Monologues do not objectify women. But beauty pageants were just an absolute no-no. So did the Barbie thing, too. The Barbie doll we were talking about. The Barbie doll, she is just too slim and attractive, and this is harmful to little girl's psyches. I mean, just this absurd stuff. I mean, you hear Sarah Palin talking about the beauty... she said, "Hey, it got me scholarships." She was from a poor family. She had to work her way through college. She was beautiful to boot. But the whole feminist movement shifted from the original suffragette. Just everybody nowadays supports equal treatment without discrimination for everybody, regardless of your sex or your race or your religion. So that is one movement that, to me, just morphed into something that was really not representative of most women, although they did suck a fair number of people into this notion that the most important thing as a woman is to take care of yourself and to worry about yourself. And of course, we want to worry about ourselves, but for lots of women, they want to worry about a husband and a family as well. And they said, "Well, that is really secondary to you and yourself." And for some women, they choose that. But for an awful lot of women, they want to have both the opportunities professionally and the opportunities to have a traditional family life. SM: It is interesting, I cannot remember who I interviewed, because I have interviewed so many people, I have to look at the transcripts, but I can remember one speaker mentioning that growing up in the (19)50s, women, the housewives, really were not fulfilled deep down inside because they gave up everything to raise a family. And even though they never said anything. Some were secretaries or whatever, and then they just went home and raised a family, and they could not use their skills or whatever beyond, so basically, they never spoke about it, and they kept it hidden. So, we are talking about boomers' parents now, who are now in their (19)80s or passing away. ME: Well, I know Betty Friedan wrote about that. What was her book called? SM: The Feminine Mystique. ME: Yes. And how it was so godawful to be home with children, you need to throw off the bonds and go do whatever. I know from my own family, I know my mother, I know both of my grandmothers, I know my aunts, they loved being home. They loved raising a family. Were there challenges? Of course. The notion that they were so totally dominated by the men in their life, I can tell you, they made it appear that the man made all the decisions, but my mother made a huge number of decisions in our family. But it was something that you presented to the world. "What do you think, Glen?" "Well, you decide that one mom," and say whatever. I am sure there were some women who were unhappy, but there were huge, huge, huge numbers of women who were terribly happy. They devoted their whole lives to their husband and their children, and then they would move on sometime. SM: That is my mom. ME: My mother had trouble when my baby sister left. It was really empty nest, because she did not have that many outside interests. But she developed a bridge club and this and that. She got more active in different things. But it was really hard. See, I never had that, because I never stopped working. But this notion that they all hated it is just bunk. Some of them probably did. And for them, good for you, get out and do what you want. But life was certainly simpler for a lot of them, because now you have to choose. You have the baby. And I talk to so many young women and, "I do not know what to do. I love my job, but now I do not know, we are going to have a baby, blah, blah, blah." Choices. Well, this is the freedom we wanted so much. We have got it. SM: One of the things that I am putting down here, what Phyllis Schlafly told me at my interview with her, also, when you look at the (19)50s, it is kind of defined as more of a conservative vera as opposed to the (19)60s and the (19)70s. And obviously a lot of it has to do with Eisenhower, who was the president, he was like the grandfather figure. Certainly, William Buckley was... God and Man at Yale, which I read a long time ago, it is a great book. But he was starting National Review, and so there were conservative things happening in the United States before President Kennedy came in. ME: Russell Kirk wrote The Conservative Mind, which is still read. SM: Right. And of course, you talk about Goldwater and the rise of Ronald Reagan in the (19)70s and the (19)80s. And I interviewed Ed Meese too, because I wanted Mr. Meese to talk to me about his work with Ronald Reagan in California, not his presidency, in California. I learned an awful lot from him about those years, about law and order, against the welfare state, and those kinds of things. Can you talk about what happened? We're talking about the end of the war, we are talking about these kinds of major things still happening, that there were a lot of conservatives, that seemed like a conservative era. I do not blame it all on John Kennedy for the change. ME: Well, remember, I was... SM: ...Blame it all on John Kennedy for the change. ME: Well, remember I was 10 in 1960, so I was not that much into it until about (19)64. So, the question is what happened then in the (19)50s and (19)60s to energize conservatives? SM: Yes. ME: I think it was a mix of things. Again, I was a little girl, but I do think that people started to get disturbed about the growth of government. Even back then Goldwater used to talk about the national debt. Lord, is not he turning in his grave looking at our debt right now? I think that, and I have heard people in my family talk about this, when they had the end of World War II and they split up Europe and you had the communists, I do not think that people at the time thought that was forever. And I do not think, from what I read, it was not Churchill. He did not think that was for decades and decades. It was just a way to set things up post-war. I think that Americans were sort of horrified by the oppression. The oppression in communist nations of so many people. This was supposed to be a temporary fix after the war. I think that Buckley starting the National Review was caught on that in both the foreign and in the country. Eisenhower interestingly was a little bit ahead of his time. Do you know he appointed Clare Booth Luce; the first woman ever named to a major ambassadorial post? He named Mrs. Luce our ambassador to Italy. This was the first time. So that was always sort of interesting to me because you always hear about this guy as not much of an exciting guy, but that was really key what he did. And now you look, and of course the ambassadors, many of them are women. The funny thing was that when she went to Italy, she said the first thing she had to do was hire a wife because the ambassador's wife plays such a critical role in running the embassy and the social. So, she hired Letitia Baldridge, who later became a social- SM: She has done a book. ME: Yes, she has done a lot of books. She loved Mrs. Luce. She is still with us in Washington. And Mr. Luce had by then, sort of semi-retired from time, and he would come and spend six to eight months a year in Italy with her. But she needed a wife. I always loved that. But Eisenhower was smart enough to name a beautiful, smart, philosophically sound woman to a key post like that post-war. I always give him credit for that. SM: Yeah, that is interesting about him. I remember the golfing. He would go to Gettysburg and you see that... You have been there. The little three... The little hole he has there. ME: And Mamie. Mamie people nowadays sort of snicker at Mamie Eisenhower. But from what I have read and heard; she was a power in that family. SM: I always have to check this. What is really amazing about Goldwater too, and this is the thing, I will always remember that here is this man who ran for president in 1964 and got clabbered by Lyndon Johnson, but he was a very distinguished senator. In the end, he and Hugh Scott were the two men that walked into President Nixon's office and said he had to resign. ME: Right. Because- SM: [inaudible] story. ME: ...He had integrity. SM: Yes. ME: He had integrity and that is a rare quality these days. And whether it is people lying about what they are going to do when they get on the Supreme Court or lying about what they are going to do when they are President. They run as moderates, and they come in with these left wing plans. Integrity is a very rare quality and Goldwater did have it. SM: Yeah. Integrity, you raised a very important point because in higher education, Arthur Chickering, one of the gospel books or the Bible books of higher education is Education and Identity. And the seventh vector of development is integrity. Students should always be striving for that ultimate, which is integrity, which is being comfortable with who you are and standing for something. ME: Right. And this is something I teach my kids. I mean, we all make mistakes. You go through life, but you have to show integrity. You have to be honest with people. You have to be honest with yourself. I do not know how you live with yourself when you are a liar. Lots of people are. SM: Well, I am a firm believer that you could pay a higher up. ME: I think you are right. SM: This is very important for me because even though I interviewed Lee Edwards on this and I have had other people talk about it, and I think Tom Hawkin, I interviewed. He was one of the leaders of the Young Americans for Freedom. And I think he has a book coming out pretty soon. He said he has. And he is a Vietnam vet too. But please describe the Young Americans for Freedom in the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s. They were activists and they were against the war in Vietnam. How did they start? How big were they? Describe the students and what was their goals and purposes and accomplishments. I think we need to know more. I would like to see a book written about it. ME: Actually. I think Ron is doing one. SM: Is he? ME: It is a detailed one about the history of a former board member, Wayne Thorburn, T-H-O-R-B-U-R-N. Ask Ron. They might even let you see the draft or whatever it is in. It is in that state. SM: It is fantastic that he is doing that because nobody has done it. ME: Nope, nope. He has spent a lot of time on it. Wayne Thorburn was the executive director of YAF when I came to town in (19)73. Also, when Ron came, we both worked for him at Young Americans for Freedom. But I never heard of YAF until about (19)68, (19)69. There I was a freshman at Briarcliffe. I think there was a brochure. Somehow a brochure was on the table, and I picked it up and it described a group that was founded at William F. Buckley's home. And of course, I had been a fan of his from watching Firing Line and we got National Review at home. I do not know what it cost, $10 to join or something. So, I filled it out and sent it in. Before long, I got a call from somebody who wanted to come and see if I was interested in going into this and that. They had different meetings, and I did go. I was personally not ready for leadership then. I was feeling my way. I was learning what I had to learn. I was developing my personality. What happened for me was my junior year, I went to the University of London. This would have been (19)70 to (19)71. This was before Margaret Thatcher. This was Socialist England. Some people are sole learners. I had to see socialism. I had to see how it brought everybody down. I had to see how me, a relatively rich American when I broke my toe, went and got free medical care. Some hardworking ditch digger was paying for my medical care because it was free in England. I had to see it to understand the virtues of our then, anyway, free country, smaller government where people took more responsibility for themselves instead of looking to government always. So that was another magic moment for me, a year abroad in Socialist England. So, when I came back my senior year, that is when I got really active in Young Americans for Freedom. I brought in a speaker to college. I went to the different conferences and events. I read more. And then when I graduated, I was offered a position. My first position after college was at Young Americans for Freedom. So, I did not get that involved until I got back in August of (19)70, (19)71 and so that final year of college. And actually, then the young conservatives had it with Nixon because he had sold out to China, Red China and he was expanding the government incredibly. And so, for that election, we had a group called 72 Youth Against McGovern. What are young conservatives going to do when the presidential candidate is so disappointing? And so, we had Youth Against McGovern, and actually, that is where I was stuffing a mailing down at the New York YAF office on Jane Street in Greenwich Village; that is where I met my husband, and he was going to Fordham grad. We became friends and then he came to Washington then I came to Washington. But YAH was an alternative voice on campuses that were dominated by the left. When I started college in (19)68, that was the year that they shut down Columbia. They were blowing up places. Even at Briarcliffe, there was this ridiculous little contingent who shut it down for a day or so, right around exam time. And I remember thinking, of course, it was great not to take exams, but here we are paying this money and these stupid nitwits, and you are talking about a privileged brunch of young women who went to Briarcliffe shutting down the school and enforcing their views because they know best. And this is so typical of the left of Obama and of many of the feminists, they know what is best for you and we need to shut this school down for a couple of days to make our point about whatever, instead of really listening to what other people have to say. It is a kind of arrogance. In recent times, I remember when they had the healthcare summit and you had President Obama sitting there and you had Republicans and you had Democrats and everything in his body language, in his face, in his tone of voice was I really know best about Americans' healthcare. And to me, that just was so symbolic. SM: Would you say the other Democrats like Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, even Harry Truman, would you put them in the same- ME: Not as bad. SM: No? ME: No. It has gotten really bad. It has gotten really bad. This particular administration, I am certain he is a one-term President, but to me, it typifies what we saw in the left on the college campus at the time that YAF grew so tremendously. It was this arrogance that the left-wing way is the best. We know what is best. We are going to shut this down. We are going to blow things up like it or leave it. Bill Ayers, Obama's good buddy, we are going to blow things up because we know what's best. No contrition. To this day, no contrition out of Bill Ayers. SM: I know that Mark Rudd, who I have interviewed, has written the book Underground. I do not know if you saw that book. He admits some mistakes that were made by the Weather... He is not going to change anything about SDS, but- ME: No. SM: Yeah, going to violence, he has said that was wrong. It destroyed our organization. I do not think the other, Bernadine Dorn, has even... She is married to Bill Ayers. I do not think she has said anything like Mark Rudd. ME: Right-right. But I mean, this is sort of... To me, YAF was the alternative to this arrogant left-wing insistence that they knew best about everything. And then over time, it became a more positive thing promoting conservative ideas. And maybe it was that from the beginning. I mean, as I said, I was not involved until 10, 11 years into YAF. SM: I hope when your husband writes this book about the Young Americans for Freedom, that when he is talking about that particular organization in the (19)60s and the (19)70s that he brings in the important college students that a lot of students were not going to SDS, they were not going to the Black Panthers, they were not going to the women's groups. There were large contingents of students that were... I hope he really does that because when you read the periods, it seems like it is more liberal. It is all about the liberals and the activists. ME: But I mean, do not forget back then, that is all we heard about. Because other than human events and National Review and a couple of conservative talk show hosts, the whole media was run by people who were disagreeing with conservative ideas. They are all still there, but we have different outlets now. They have not changed. Listen to ABC, NBC, or CBS one night. You want to pull your hair out. That is how I feel. I listen sometimes just to get motivated. But now there are other outlets: internet, talk radio, and Fox. So that has changed. They have not changed at all. SM: See, what happens is that in all of these groups here, for example, in the gay and lesbian students or movement, Stonewall, in (19)69, then the Environmental Earth Day in 1970, then you have... Well, you have Black Panthers started and SDS. They all have these starting periods and how important they were and how many people were linked to them. Maybe it is because they are more visible. Were the Young Americans for Freedom they trying to be more invisible, or the media just did not... ME: The media just ignored them totally. They got away with it. They pretty much ignored what Goldwater had to say. They would characterize him as a cowboy. He was going to blow up the world. He had such a wonderful platform. So many good ideas about things that people started talking about seriously. The country would not be nearly in the pickle it is right now. He never got any coverage. It was so dominated by the left. SM: How about when Bill Buckley had that first meeting in the creation of the Young Americans for Freedom was there any kind of coverage for that? ME: I am sure there was not except in National Review, perhaps. SM: Those early students that started coming... I mean, that in itself would be a book. ME: Right. I am sure there was not. I mean, it was total dominance. We have a video on our website of Clare Booth Luce in about (19)64, I guess. I think it was during the campaign. And she is being interviewed by I think Eric Sevareid and some other lefty. And they are just incredulous, astonished beyond belief that she would suggest there was any bias in the media towards Barry Goldwater. You can find it on our website if you want. But I mean that was so typical. Not only did they not cover anybody, and did they pick on unfairly on conservatives, but then they denied it. And some of them to this day still do. She was fighting the good fight. One thing we love about her, she was so lovely, so gracious, so intelligent, and feisty. She would stand up way back then when the ladies were not on TV for the most part. But they just denied that there was any... Oh, they laughed at her. SM: Would you consider her kind of what Eleanor Roosevelt was to the Democratic Party is what Clare Booth Luce was to the Republican Party? ME: I consider her much better. I consider her much smarter, much more articulate, much more influential, and grossly ignored. It is one of the reasons we picked her. Well, partly because there was really no contest. There was nobody that did as much as she did from (19)44 through the end of her life. Well, before (19)44; this was when she did the keynote. Because they never studied her, they never talk about her. The women's studies do not even acknowledge the existence of such an extraordinary woman in that era who influenced so many things. Eleanor Roosevelt, they give her all kinds of credit for all kinds of stuff. Nobody in universities or in most books give Mrs. Luce credit for what she did. SM: The only person that I can remember that kind of stands out in the (19)50s was a female when I was young was Margaret Chase. ME: Yes. And she was a senator from Maine, and she was very distinct. SM: There you go. Yep. ME: We looked at Margaret Chase Smith when it came to the naming the institute because we wanted to name it after an individual woman, somebody that young women of this era could relate to. And she was elected. She worked hard. But her life compared to Mrs. Luce's; she was the playwright, wrote the [inaudible] still being produced to this day. She was an ambassador. She was a congresswoman. She was the editor of Vanity Fair. She had a long marriage to Henry Lewis and I am sure that was a challenge. She had a daughter. She had stepsons. She had a deep spiritual life. She became a Catholic at a certain point in her life actually when her daughter was killed in a car crash. It was terrible, terrible. So, you look at all those dimensions to her life and then you look at Margaret Chase Smith, who was a lovely accomplished woman. There was no comparison. There was no contest. There was no woman like Mrs. Luce in modern American history in the modern conservative movement. There was no contest. So that is why I went to her family and asked permission. The lawyer said, you do not have to ask the family, but smart. So, I did. And her stepson, Henry Luce, who was heading the Luce Foundation was the son of Clare's husband as sort of this gruff fella. And he said, "Well, I do not agree with what you're doing, but she would like it so you can use the name." SM: What would you say... And a lot of people do not like the term boomer, but what would you say that Clare Booth Luce's life meant to the post-World War II generation that they may not even be aware of? ME: Well, I think she was a wonderful role model for a woman who wanted to enjoy traditional life and professional life. And who was proud of her religious deep spirituality, who loved her family, and had this amazing career all at the same time. She is a role model. I mean, that is why we picked her. Now, the truth is you did not hear much about her because the left and the liberals so dominated the media. And that is one of the reasons we talk about her a lot here, especially with the young women because they never hear about her in college. Never. SM: I know a lot of conservative women that are at Westchester University. They graduated and... Actually, a lot of them never even said whether they were liberal or conservative, but- ME: Because it is easier not to. SM: But now they have graduated, you see on their Facebook conservative. They came to everything to learn. But I did not know they were conservative or liberal. But when you look at these periods when boomers were alive, in your eyes, could you define them in your own words? Either through experience or just studying and knowledge of history, what do these periods mean to you? The period 1946 to 1960. ME: I mean, in 1960, I was ten. So, I mean, that was an era when Americans were so relieved that the war was over. I know my own parents started their family. They settled in the Levi Towns. The guys went to college on the GI Bill. It was a time when America was happy at being America without all the questioning. We had won the war. We defeated the tyrant. The settlement was not so great in the way they divided up Europe. But it was a calmer time. It was an easier time. It was a time when schools, the public schools, it was so much easier for parents because people shared values about what it was they wanted the schools to teach their kids and you did not have all these raging social controversies. Not that there was perfection, there were still challenges. There were children who were not well cared for. There were wives and husbands who were not happy. But it was a simpler time. And I think it was post the chaos of the World War people were happy to be safe and prosperous. Taxes were fairly low. Government was reasonably small, although it was starting to creep up there. And so, it was a calmer, quieter time. And certainly, my childhood was probably typical. SM: Well, before we get to the other periods, one of the negatives about the period, two of them, is that the television of the era really hid the racism that was happening in our society. ME: Yes-yes. SM: That it was basically all White people on television except for Amos and Andy in the early (19)50s, which was a slapstick. And Nat King Cole had a program like 10 weeks- ME: That is right. SM: ...In the middle (19)50s. And then the second thing was the McCarthy hearing, which was the fear that everybody was a communist and people... ME: Well, I am just reading about Sandra Bird in the Post at lunchtime, and I mean he led the filibuster to prevent the Civil Rights Act from passing. I do not think I'd have been with Senator Bird on that one. I mean, I was a young adolescent at the time, but there were an awful lot of people in the Democrat party who were opposed to the kind of changes. And of course, the Republican Party came out of the Civil War and the people who wanted to have freedom for the slaves. So, it is interesting how that is all twisted around in some ways, although there are some interesting candidates coming to the fore now. SM: That is the criticism of President Kennedy because if anything, he was a pragmatic politician. Before he ever started linking up with the big four: Dr. King, Jane Farmer, Wilkins, and Whitney Young. It is what kind of effect is this going to have in my Southern Democrats who basically- ME: Right-right. But then the residual effects of that today are absurd like in Virginia, you cannot... When it comes to primary elections, any person can vote in any of them. That is a residual effect of the Civil Rights Act saying that if you had to declare a party, it is stigmatized in a racial way. I mean, it is ridiculous. What happens around here is the liberal Democrats come and vote for the liberal Republicans in the primaries or the more liberal and they skew the elections. And that is a crazy leftover. SM: You can see a direct... I asked this to James Spanos too. Do you see a direct link between what we are seeing today in Congress between Republicans and Democrats and what happened in the (19)60s? Because a lot of those people that are in Congress are boomers from that era. Some are older that are World War II generations. The majority of them are boomers or Generation Xers, which is the group that followed boomers. ME: When you say what happens in Congress, are you talking about the dominance of the liberal and the left? SM: Yeah. Well, no, it is just that they do not talk to each other. There is dislike, there is no trust between the other side. They have these meetings, but it's all show. People are frustrated with both parties. ME: Right-right. Well, I remember when the Republicans took over the Senate whenever that was way back, and they basically equalized the numbers with maybe one or two extra on each of these committees. I was looking at the judiciary committee that is looking at Kagan. I think it is like 12-7 or something. I think that from my observation, the Democrats rarely seek fairness. They seek power. They seek absolute power whereas when the Republican... And then the other thing the Republicans did when they took over is they cut budgets of committees. So, I mean, I do not see equal blame here for the current incivility. I see a kind of arrogance and we are in charge now, Harry Reid and Pelosi, this despicable kind of arrogance. We are running things so we do not have to talk to you, which they both literally said as the root of the problem, not that the loyal opposition is speaking up. They are supposed to speak up. And if you watch this Kagan hearing going on now, you see an awful lot of courteous but hard questioning from Jack Sessions from some of the others. You see a courtesy. I remember when Bork was up and they pulverized him. SM: I remember that. ME: It was brutal. It was personal. It was unbelievable. I do not see that as much on the Republican side. SM: I think Alito had some pretty rough ones too. ME: Yep. I remember they went after... It was the Post, really. But the way Robert's children were dressed, I do not know if you remember that. That to me was the ultimate sneering because they were dressed in pastel colors. It was this little boy and this little girl, and I thought, "This is just too absurd." I mean, this is so uncivil. SM: Well, just your thoughts again on this period between 1961 to 1970. How do you read that period? [inaudible] thoughts. ME: I do not know, 11 to 20. It was turmoil. You saw the left, certainly in the schools and the universities. The anti-war movement you saw that developing big time during the (19)60s. I mean, Goldwater was defeated in (19)64. And then the conservatives started to get together and act more strategically. The left was just loving its power and the anti-war movement. We talked about how the woman's movement at that point shifted more from equality in the law [inaudible] to this hating man, hating America, hating religion, hating faith, and female solidarity. That was the thing. But it was only liberal and conservative female, not conservative female solitary. I remember when one of my favorites is when Kay Bailey Hutchison was running for senate in Texas. Gloria Steinem, the grandmother of the feminist movement, attacked her viciously. She said, " Hutchison is a female impersonator. She looks like us but thinks like them." See, this was the woman's movement that was developing in the (19)60s. You cannot be a good woman unless you were a liberal or leftist. And it ties back to when I had my eureka moment; who are these people? They do not represent me. This was the (19)60s. This is what they grew into. When I was in college, they were sort of burning their bras. They were not running it yet, although most of my professors were liberal. SM: What about the (19)70s? Is that just a continuation of the (19)60s? ME: These are good questions. I mean, I have not thought that much about it. I mean, to me personally and professionally, it was building up to Reagan. It was losing different things. SM: That might be it. ME: Yeah-yeah. SM: Although some people say up to (19)73, it was still the (19)60s. ME: Maybe. Could be. SM: I think those first four years were really the same. ME: I came to town and then we had Watergate. We were working away. We were also discouraged with Nixon. Anyway. You had Goldwater. You had the man of integrity on our side saying you need to resign. In (19)76, I took off work. I went down to Florida, worked for Reagan. We lost big time. Remember two to one, Tommy; he said we were going to win two to one. We lost big time. And Reagan lost at the Republican National Convention by a few votes. But it was sort of in the hands of God because then we had Jimmy Carter and then the nation was ready for Ronald Reagan. So, it is interesting how things work. SM: How about the (19)80s? Because that is... A lot of people say it was Ronald Reagan and George Bush came out at the end of it. ME: We had a financial problem in the country, so we cut taxes and we let the money go into the private sector. And guess what? In a year or two we were out of it. If only Obama could think of that and could see that. And then the (19)80s was tremendous growth. I mean, this area here in Northern Virginia and tremendous growth all around Dulles Airport here. All these computer companies, the private sector, Bill Gates, computers. And I remember early in the Reagan years, I had a big deal job, and I had a computer, and I took a course. But you know what? There was no reason for me to learn how to use that computer because I did not need it at my job. I come here, I start this institute. I got to do the computer. I got to do the word process. We keep all our donor records on it. I mean, there is a huge increase in productivity because of the boom that came with the growth of computers and technology. So, the (19)80s were fabulous growth years. I give credit to lower taxes and the flourishing of business by leaving them alone. Leave them alone. SM: Would you consider the (19)80s bringing back the military because the military had gone really downhill in the... Well, the (19)70s. ME: Yes. Right. The people would spit on the returning Vietnam veterans. But Reagan had a great reverence for the military. And as President, he really was a leader in that sense and he would highlight them and honor the military people, as many Americans had always done anyway. SM: When Ronald Reagan... He did not say in a speech, but it was a feeling. It was ambience. It was just an aura about him. It was a perception of we are back. And that was something that he set up very early in his administration. What did he mean by that? We are back. Was that strictly about the military? Was that pride of- ME: I mean, I do not remember specifically saying it, but to me, it would mean the time-tested values that made America great, which are acknowledging the wonderful productivity of people and businesses left alone, families keeping more of their own money to spend it on their children and whatever they want in the way they do. America becoming a leader in the world, defeating the Soviet Union. We outspent them. We did more military than they did. They could not keep up all those communist nations with those people held captives for all those years with that Roosevelt-Churchill agreement were freed. Well, I went on a cruise over there a couple of years ago. Those people love Ronald Reagan. You go up to anybody in the street. They love Ronald Reagan because they are free now. So, we are back: freedom, families, celebrating faith. He did celebrate faith. SM: Do you think the most well-known quote from him is tear down this wall? ME: It is a good one. When I was president of the Virginia Board of Education, we had standards of learning in history. I got that in there. They may have removed it since, but I had to barter with the Democrats to do that. SM: Just to have that in there? ME: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. See, they dominated. SM: That is part of history. ME: It did not matter. It was so political. These Democrats are so political. We had a board of nine- So they were so political. These Democrats were so political. We had a board of nine, five were Democrats, four were Republicans, at that point. And so, I had to barter. I had to give them some stupid [inaudible]- SM: When you think of the (19)90s, of course, we're thinking of the latter part of George Bush's, number one, and Bill Clinton. ME: That is right. That is right. SM: So, what are the (19)90s statement first? ME: Well, I remember the day he made the announcement that he was going to raise taxes. I was working for him. And I called in the staff, said, "That is it. We're out here." Oh, no. People will understand, blah, blah, blah." No, they did not. They did not. It was breaking faith with the Americans. He said, "Read my lips, no new taxes." And he was a good man. He seemed to have integrity in different ways, but that was it for him. And then we got Bill Clinton, what a grotesque character. But in the end, he put his finger in the wind and he did some things with the budget. Of course, he was living off of all the glorious success of Reagan and Bush and their policies generally. So, the country was still growing. They were able to balance the budget because the military budget was way down, because we had won the Cold War. But on sort of a personal social level, what a grotesque character to be. I mean, people say the certain behaviors of teenagers now, they take it back to Bill Clinton saying, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." These kids are saying, "Well, that is not sex to be doing this to each other. That is not sex." I do not know if it goes back to Clinton. SM: And then of course, the 10s is George Bush, number two. ME: Right. Right. SM: And Obama has been here a year-and-a-half. But [inaudible]- ME: Right. I mean, George Bush, number two, kept us safe militarily. He reacted very well after 911. Nobody was ready before 911 to do the kind of things we needed to do to keep those wicked terrorists out of our country. He spent too much money. He did not veto enough. I think he did his best, but he was a tremendous disappointment to conservatives. And then Obama ran as a moderate. Americans like to give somebody a chance. I cannot tell you how many people I know who are fairly conservative say, "Well, I want to give the Black guy a chance because that shows in America anybody can be president." And now, most of those people have turned against him, totally, because he's not governing as a moderate. SM: I know on Newt Gingrich and the Republicans came into power in (19)94, and I have read, I think it is also in his brand-new book, Newt Gingrich talks about that era when boomers were young, or the (19)60s and (19)70s, and a lot of the problems we have in our society today go right back to that period. And he was making reference to the drug culture, the lack of morality, certainly the divorce rate- ME: Newt is talking about this? SM: Yeah. I know. I know. It was basically he was just making general statements. And George will also, at times in his writings, will make judgements or commentaries going back to that period. But a lot of the reasons why we have had problems in our country, it goes right back to that time. And they were making reference to I think the kind of the countercultural issues that we were going through at that time. ME: Right. SM: Just your thoughts on- ME: I think that some of that is true. I think that this, I remember in the (19)60s it was, "If it feels good, do it." And the reference, of course, sexually. SM: Right. ME: And so, then a lot of folks, mostly educated folks, figured out that was not such a good idea. But a whole segment of society just bought into it. And isn’t it like something, 40, 50, 60 percent of children, urban children, are born without a married mother and father. And so, that I mean, I do not know what it is from. But it seems to me, that it makes sense that it came from that, "Oh, just do whatever you want." But educated people of greater economics figured out, "No, this is not the best for kids or for society." But there is just huge chunks of society now, especially at the lower end economically, who just they have the children without marriage. And the children suffer, and the families suffer. It is a terrible cultural situation. SM: A lot of people, very critical of Lyndon Johnson on that because they say he created the welfare state. ME: Right. SM: Do you think that is a pretty strong statement? ME: No. I think it is true. And I think that at times, some of the rules that rewarded mothers for having more children without husbands, if they had a husband, then they would be off the assistance program. But if they did not have a husband and they had more children, they would get more money. I mean, I think all the incentives were perverse. And I think this whole notion that we help people when they are down, sure. But not for decades, and decades, and decades. You help people a little. And then of course, the government takes so much of our money that although Americans still are the most generous on the face of the earth, privately, people could do much more if they were not paying 20, 30, 40, 50 percent taxes. So, the government steps in, it encourages behaviors which are harmful to children and families by its idiot policies. So, yeah. I mean, I think that Lyndon Johnson and what he meant to do to help people, in effect, it really did not help. It hurt a lot of children, a lot of families all over the country. And the results we still see today. SM: Did Ronald Reagan try to fight that when he was in? Because- ME: Yes. Yes. SM: ...correct me if I am wrong, there were two things that he built his reputation on in California. It was he was going to be tough on students who try to shut down and disrupt universities. ME: Right-right. SM: And number two, was to end the welfare state. ME: Right. And he tried. But who signed welfare reform? It was Bill Clinton. It was a Republican Congress. And in the end, he signed a federal bill that forced states to make people go back to work instead of just staying on welfare year, after year, after year. Now, I feel sure that I have read Obama has changed that back. But it was Bill Clinton who signed welfare reform, which was so interesting to me. He was not nearly as ideological as either Hillary or Obama. SM: People think Bill Clinton was kind of a middle of the roader. ME: Right. But I mean, I think it was not from conviction. It was just whatever seemed to work right. SM: Oh, when did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion? And when did it end? ME: The (19)60s? SM: And what was the watershed moment? ME: Well, for conservatives it was the Goldwater nomination and election, (19)64. Because it coalesced us around a candidate who, well, like I said, in my family, it was the first-time mom and dad said, "Anybody running for national office was really articulating their beliefs about taxes were too high." People have gotten so used to high taxes. And I remember reading Wall Street Journal while I was serving and it said, and it was a few years ago but, "Most women who make less than their husbands, most women, their paycheck goes to pay taxes." Is not that outrageous? Most of what women make in families when the husband makes more than the wife, pays the taxes. Now, this is just wrong. This means taxes are too high. And so, I think Goldwater was talking about this. I know my dad, he worked very-very hard. He would always work against the school bond increases. I mean, he was paying taxes that were just sapping our family. We had four kids. Mother did not work. She took care of the family. So, that was back in the (19)60s. Goldwater was finally a national candidate saying this. And so, for conservatives, yes. Even though we lost, we can have a national voice. And then Reagan and different people. So, that was the watershed, I think for conservatives in the (19)60s. SM: That was the end, when did it end, the (19)60s end? ME: I do not know. You were talking about (19)70s. I am not exactly sure on that, to be honest. I was in school (19)68 to (19)72. I had that year abroad. That opened my eyes to what socialism is. I am not sure I have an answer when it ended. SM: But the beginning of the (19)60s and the watershed moment were Goldwater? ME: Yes. SM: Why did the Vietnam War end, in your opinion? Just your thoughts on that. ME: Why did it end? SM: Mm-hmm. ME: It ended because the Congress did not appropriate the funds they needed. They were winning. They were doing wonderfully well. But they were sick of the war. Americans were sick of the war. It is going to happen in Afghanistan, you watch. We have to choose our wars in a better way. We have to get in and get out. I mean, George Bush understood this. The first George Bush. The second Bush pretty much got into Iraq, and we finished that up. I do not think Obama has a clue about these kinds of strategic matters. I mean, when he announced the big thing in Afghanistan, I remember thinking- SM: That is a year-and-a-half, it is going- ME: What? Nobody ever wins in Afghanistan. The Russians do not win. The invading... Centuries pass, nobody wins. SM: Alexander the Great did not win. ME: That is right. That is right. But I do not believe that Obama has very much breadth and depth of knowledge about foreign affairs. And I think our country is in peril. I think what will happen is he will give up in a year or two. Those people will be in a terrible way. We will pull out like we did in Vietnam. Anybody who helped us, they will send to reeducation camps or kill them. Vietnam was such a disgrace for our country to end it that way. After 50,000 lives. I do not know if you knew anybody that died, but I sure did. SM: Oh, I do. ME: Just young, idealistic men who went to fight the war. We could have won it if we would have had a little more guts. But we never should have started it, and it was LBJ, remember, that greatly increased our presence there, if we were not going to finish it. SM: Yeah. And I have read so many books on Eisenhower, and Kennedy, and [inaudible]- ME: Right. You know what? In my mind, Vietnam ending was the helicopter on the top of the embassy. SM: April 30th, 1975. ME: It makes me emotional when I think about the ambassador. You remember him? He was the last one to get on. And I remember his face was so distraught because we were leaving so many behind, Vietnamese who had helped us. And he could not take them all. And it was the last copter. And I also remember Gerald Ford, who I never liked anyway, that day he was getting off a plane somewhere and he literally ran away from the media, so he did not have to answer questions about this disgrace that had just happened. But I think it was Ellsworth Bunker, was that his name? SM: Yeah, Ellsworth Bunker. Yes. ME: Right. SM: He was, yes. ME: And it was the saddest sight. And all these people on the ground trying to get up there. And we just abandoned them. We abandon the horrors of reeducation camp. SM: I know that the ARVN, which was South Vietnamese Army, they were throwing their uniforms away, hoping that the North Vietnamese would not know that they had been in the service. ME: Right. There was no hope for those people. So, many of them tortured, ruined. What a disgrace. What a horrible thing. I hope it does not end that way in Afghanistan. But I have very little faith in Obama. SM: I have been talking about the boomer generation. But what term would best define this group that was born after the war? Would you say, I just have a couple of them, the Vietnam generation, the protest generation, the Woodstock generation, the movement generation? Is there a term that you would use to define the 74 million that were born after World War II, what they define as a boomer? ME: It is interesting. Because I think you gave five terms, and four of them were for the left. Woodstock. SM: Yeah. ME: The last one was the movement. SM: Yeah, movements and Woodstock. That is a counterculture. ME: Maybe it is dominance. Dominance in expression by a very small number who had their lives in the political world, and in the media, and in the popular culture. Americans, I have always thought most Americans at core, pretty conservative about stuff. But they do get sucked in by Obama types. They do get tired of wars, especially when it looks like we are not winning them. But I mean, it is a great country with great people. And there is a small number of lefties who have had tremendous success in dominating policy. Much, much more than they should based on their numbers or the logic of their positions. So, I mean, I know all those terms. And they are valid. They describe certain groups. SM: Right. ME: But maybe it is the silent majority. Maybe that is what it is. Is that when we talked about the silent majority in the (19)60s? I do not know. It is just the people that just go to work, they pay their taxes, they raise their families. SM: That is a Nixon term, the silent majority. ME: Yeah. Right. Well, that would have been what, (19)68 to whatever. SM: Yeah. And I know the Silent Generation is what they define as the generation before the boomers, which was not the Greatest Generation. ME: Right. SM: It was that five- or six-year period, almost like the Korean War people. But a lot of those people were really involved in the anti-war movement. ME: Right. Right. I mean, the left dominated. But they were not dominant in numbers. SM: I am going to read this. I will get my glasses on here. Because you worked for both President Reagan and President Bush. Within the boomer generation, something about Ronald Reagan. He is revered by some and despised by others. Why? I know in California he stood for those two things that I talked about. And that obviously, people that lived in California at the time knew what he stood for when he was running for president. Just your thoughts of why... I am being impartial on this. ME: Right. SM: Because I am a Democrat. And I am more of a liberal. ME: Right. SM: But I really like Ronald Reagan. ME: Right. SM: And I am not going to put that in my interview. ME: Right-right, right. SM: But I just do not understand why he just draws the ire of so many people when he was basically a decent human being. ME: Right. First off, I do not think he is as widely despised, even by some of the worst despisers now, since his death. I think it was so interesting. He was sick. He was sick for a while, and then he died. And the reporting on Reagan, even from the liberal outlets, was so interesting to me that it was much more positive than I would have thought. Okay. So, I do not think he is as despised now as he was. But I think it is what happens when somebody is so clear, and so plain, and communicating, in this case, conservative ideas. And people just get enthusiastic just listening to him. It is almost like with Sarah Palin, a little bit of what you saw. And the people who disagree in terms of policy are so angry, are so angry at the effectiveness. I mean, Ronald Reagan was the most effective communicator we have ever had in the country. And people just love to hear him and listen to him. And they say, "Yeah. Yeah, that is right." Democrats and Republican. Well, the Reagan Democrats. And I think that just makes sort of the ideological left is so angry. And that is why they despise him because he is so effective. SM: Are you upset with Sarah Palin though? Because I even have read that Republicans are upset with her by saying that she wants to meet Margaret Thatcher to get her support because she was close to Ronald Reagan. And somebody said, "The nerve of her to put herself in the same league with Ronald Reagan." I mean, it is some Republicans are furious about this. ME: There's some people who do not like her. I was talking more about Sarah Palin during the campaign. I mean, what a vicious stuff with her kids. And there's a viciousness towards her. I do not know if it is because she is a beautiful, conservative woman. I do not know that she is ever going to run again, to be honest. She is enjoying the success with her book. SM: Right. Right. ME: Going all around the country. She has got all these kids, this great life in Alaska. People do not want to leave Alaska because my parents did not want to leave it. But I do not see her saying, "I am in the same category with them." But I will tell you, I have been in crowds when she is speaking, and I see a similar enthusiasm for what she has to say. It is a plain common-sense way of articulating ideas that most people believe in, like Ronald Reagan did. She has that ability. She has the ability to get everybody on their feet cheering at a dinner, at a rally. There is not a lot of politicians... John McCain sure did not have it. Obama had a lot of charisma. But I mean, I am not saying she is equal to Ronald Reagan in any way. But I am just saying the hatred, the viciousness, that you saw about Reagan, that you saw about Palin, especially during the election. I think it has to do with anger that they're so successful at articulating these views. And people just want to hear them. SM: I kind of wish, and this is off the cuff here, but I kind of wish that we had the politics of a Tip O'Neill and a Ronald Reagan. And to be able to have a diehard Democrat and a diehard Republican and to be able to be friends. ME: Yeah, it is true. SM: That is what we need in Washington. We need Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill types. ME: But I mean, it has become ugly and bitter. And to have a healthcare bill like that that Republicans did not even see until the day before they were voting on it, I mean, it is insane. That is some kind of a special arrogance. Well, they did not want them to see it because they would get opposition to it. SM: Right. ME: But this is a crazy way to run a family, to run a Congress. SM: We made a reference to Betty Friedan. What is the difference between feminism and radical feminism? I have noticed in my interviews that the radical feminists really do not like or have really problems with Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan because they are not radical enough. They are mainstream feminists. ME: Yeah. SM: And a lot of people believe that radical feminists are running the women's studies programs, not the feminists like Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan. ME: Right. Right. SM: And basically, what are your thoughts on Betty Friedan, people like Betty Friedan. I got a group here. Bear with me as I read these. ME: Right-right. Okay. SM: Your thoughts on Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, Eleanor Smeal, Kate Millett, Germaine Greer. These are all liberals. ME: Right-right. SM: Susan Brownmiller, Rebecca Walker, Winona LaDuke, Robin Morgan, Susan Johnson, and I think Andrea Dworkin, and Alice Walker. These are people- ME: I mean, you... Go ahead. SM: These are people that are defined as liberals, but they are different in their approach. ME: But I mean, there is so many different strains there. That Andrea Dworkin. I mean, she had an unhappy life with men. And she was basically a man-hater. Lookism, anybody who looked good, this was really a bad thing. There is a lot of different strains in feminism. What I do when I teach the young women workers about it is I just use the words of their leadership. Gloria Steinem, she is a female impersonator. That says it all to me. This is what she said about a conservative woman running. There are some conservative women who call themselves feminist of a sort. They call themselves equity feminist. And that goes back to the suffragette idea of equal treatment under the law. I cannot use the word feminist to describe now. But people say, "What do you mean? You got your, well, you are a professor. You are a feminist." No, no, no. It is like the word gay. Gay is not children playing Ring Around the Rosie anymore. Gay is homosexuals and sodomites. SM: Right. ME: Well, to me, feminist is a word they have taken. I mean suffragette, okay. I am okay with that. But they have taken, and it means sort of this man-hating, this disparaging anti-conservative woman, discouraging anybody who does not toe the line. Anybody who talked about life is totally unreasonably, a million babies a year. No problem. So, I mean, to me, you hate to lump them all together. But most of them are pretty radical to me, based on what they say and what they have written. SM: Yeah. Yeah, and their books are very popular books. Most of them are very popular writers. ME: Right. SM: Some of the younger ones. The two younger ones are Rebecca Walker and Winona LaDuke. I mean, they are power brokers. One's Native American. ME: Yep. Yeah. SM: And I mean, they are very popular on college campuses. ME: Right. SM: The other thing too is that when you talk about the politicians, yeah, the Geraldine Ferraro, the Elizabeth Holtzman, the Hillary Clinton, Tipper Gore, Susan Molinari, Pat Schroeder, Lindy Boggs. Those are people that really define I think the Democratic Party as females. ME: Right. They are hardworking. They are smart. But they are extremely left-wing, every single one of them. SM: What are your thoughts though? I think of the women's studies and certainly Black studies and some of these programs started, they were all challenged in the beginning for their academic, certainly Black studies because it is happening on college campuses, but all of these studies programs were developed because their history was not in the history books. ME: Right. SM: Howard Zinn has written the alternative history. Just your thoughts on that. ME: The fatal flaw to all of these is their lack of intellectual diversity. They do not teach Thomas Sowell. They do not do Clarence Thomas in Black studies. They only teach certain Blacks. SM: They do teach Phyllis Schlafly though. ME: Well. They teach her to ridicule her, in most cases, in women's studies. They do not teach her in a fair and even hand. I have never heard about it if they do. They do not have them read Ann Coulter. They do not have them read Michelle Malkin. They do not have Star Parker, turned her life around. It is a lack of intellectual diversity that makes them all lack integrity. But it is typical, frankly, no offense. But typical of the university environment. I went to four years of law school at American University, graduated in (19)80 when Reagan was elected. I had one conservative professor in four years. That is a disservice to me as a student. All the legal policy issues, we only heard them from a left-wing point of view. All the money we paid, that is a disservice to students. And these programs, that is their fatal flaw. It is a lack of intellectual diversity. SM: It is interesting because I worked with Pat a lot. ME: Yeah. Right-right. SM: And he brought a lot of conservatives to the campus. ME: Right. But this was extraordinarily unusual that a professor would work at the conservative group to have different points of view heard. SM: Well, I love Pat. I said to Ron, I said, "You got a great young man here." Not only because he was at Penn State, but we need more of it. And we need to find more people that are willing to bring in these points of views. Because now it is even more so. It is all about the bottom line. So, if anything is brought in that will threaten the bottom line, I think that is a major issue, even for conservative speakers. So, there is a lot of liberals that are giving money. I mean, if a conservative speaker comes in and it is going to threaten the bottom line and what money's going to be donated, that is wrong. Education is primary. It is number one. ME: Right. Right. SM: It is not about the bottom line. ME: Right. SM: Why did the ERA fail? Because of- ME: Because Phyllis Schlafly got millions of moms who had never before been active to go up and complain and say, "We do not want this. We do not want unelected judges deciding things the state legislators ought to be deciding." And she activated millions and millions of, a lot of them were housewives, just women who had never before been active in a policy debate. And you got to give her credit for that. How amazing. Not only did she beat it back, but she had a number of states rescind their original. I remember in Virginia going and testifying, way early in the (19)70s. I do not think Virginia ever passed it. But it was almost a Ronald Reaganesque to bring people into the process who previously had not been in. And the truth is, Obama did that in a way too. A lot of people, especially African Americans who never voted, who never cared, they got excited about this guy. SM: See, I like Obama. But I do not like the people around him. And I think he had brought into his administration too many Clintonites. ME: Right. SM: And I think it is really hurt him. And I think he has gotten bad advice. A lot of people do not like his body language. And there is a lot of things they do not like about him. And certainly, the Bill Ayers thing. ME: Right. SM: That has been discussed behind the scenes because I have friends over at the [inaudible]- ME: But I mean, whoever advised him on this oil spill ought to be shot. SM: Yeah. And, yeah. ME: The Jones Act was suspended. Have the partnerships, whatever. SM: Yeah. Yeah. I just think, talk about, who was it to talk about firing people? Forget, was it you or Bill? He needs to fire some of his people. ME: That is right. SM: And I- ME: Well, a couple are starting to go, but- SM: ...do not like his chief of staff. ME: No, I do not. SM: I do not like his chief of staff. ME: He is so crooked. He is so crooked. SM: And I think it's hurting him. ME: Here is something else. I probably should not say this on tape. SM: Well, I will be editing all this. ME: Okay. I think Obama is going to be brought into this Blagojevich thing. I think that he was involved. I think that- SM: Well, the governor of- ME: Right. Selling his seat. I think Rahm has sort of taken the fall for it. I think that Obama is corrupt in a financial way. And just Mark, where is that? Take it out of there. [inaudible]- SM: Well, I am amazed though that this guy's still not in jail. But anyways. ME: I know. SM: Might ask also, what were the most important, as a lawyer, the most important legal decisions that have taken place for say boomer women during this time frame? Could be all women. I said Roe vs Wade seems to be the big one. And then cannot take away Brown versus Board of Education, which is for everyone. Would you say those are the two most- ME: I would. SM: ...important legal decisions [inaudible]? ME: I would. And I think that our grandkids and our great grandkids are going to look back on the pro choices with the same scorn that grandchildren of slave owners look back on their grandparents for owning slaves, and Dred Scott, and all that. I think they're going to be horrified at the number of children who have been killed prior to birth for no good reason other than just convenience. Yeah. I think, I will probably be dead, but my kids and my kids' kids will see an incredible scorn heaped on these pro choices, who are any time, any place, anywhere, any how it's fine to kill the babies. Yeah. SM: Yeah. Let us- ME: Those are the two I would pick. Those are the two cases. SM: Yeah. And I interviewed Susan Brownmiller last week in New York City. ME: Right. SM: And she said, "Certainly Roe vs Wade." And she said there were other decisions too beyond just the Brown versus Board of Education. But those two kinds of stand out. I already asked you who Clare Boothe Luce is. ME: Yeah. Amazing lady. SM: Are your thoughts on the best writers of the (19)50s and (19)60s, beginning, I would like your thoughts on the beat writers. The beat writers of the (19)50s were kind of the role models for many of the activists of the (19)60s on the new left because they were anti-authoritarian. That is Ginsberg, Kerouac, Cassidy, Gary Snyder, Ferlinghetti, Ann Walden, Leroy Jones. These were the writers. These were the beatniks, the beats. And some people have told me that the (19)60s really began in the (19)50s when they wrote their books. And Howl, that historic book that Ginsberg wrote in the middle (19)50s that was banned, and on the road, they-they were very influential in creating amongst, at least the red diaper babies, who were the group that many of them became the new left. They were important. ME: Right. SM: Because they were anti-authoritarian. ME: Right. I was a little girl in the (19)50s. And in the (19)60s, I cannot say that I read that many of those. But I think in the (19)60s, if you just listened to the TV, and the radio, and read the papers, you could absorb their liberal ideas, anti-authoritarian, if you will. I cannot say that I have read many of those, to be honest. But I am familiar with the names. And maybe it was some of the writing in the (19)50s, Russell Kirk, Bill Buckley, and others, that brought us to '64 and Goldwater. So, maybe it takes 10 years for books to be ingested. SM: You mentioned Buckley, God and Man at Yale, is a classic. ME: Right. SM: And I have encouraged every student to read it, no matter who they are. ME: He wrote that one, The Unmaking of a Mayor. I think it was like (19)65 when he ran for- SM: I think I have that book. Yeah. ME: ...mayor. What a wonderful book. In fact, I do not know if my husband told you, but that is the book that made him a conservative. Because he had a professor, a high school teacher, who said, "He is the most dangerous person next to Hitler in the history of the world." So, Ron went and read the book and he agreed with everything. He was in Catholic high school. SM: One of the greatest debates I have ever seen, because I have got it on YouTube, is the debate of Malcolm X and William Buckley over- ME: Yes. SM: I mean, and I love Firing Line. And I liked any of those shows because of the fact that he brought on really smart people. ME: Right. SM: And he brought on people that he did not even like. ME: That is right. SM: Philosophically. But they were friends. [inaudible]- ME: But he liked to debate. SM: ...was a friend of his. ME: I know that. I know. He had Clare Boothe Luce on at one point. They had a wonderful discussion. Because she defended feminism, but it was the feminism of the suffragists. SM: Do you have that on tape? And where is Firing the Line? Are they going to be allowed to be shown on public broadcasting? You do not see them. ME: I do not know. I do not know. I am trying to think. I can check on that. SM: Yeah, that would be interesting to check on. Because all you see on YouTube are these snippets of about five minutes. ME: Right. Right. SM: And you do not get a gist of anything. ME: Yeah, it was a wonderful show. And it showed sort of an openness to discussion debate, which is what most of us want, especially at the university. Let us hear all sides. SM: Yeah. Well, we had Buckley on our campus. It was great. ME: Yeah. Yeah. SM: And we had a reception with him. And he signed a million different books. But I asked him about the time he had Allen Ginsberg on, because he thought Ginsberg was- ME: Right. SM: ...kind of a flake. ME: Right. SM: And you could sense he was kind of a flake. And then at the very end, he respected him. Because this flake that he thought was a flake, well, then he answered with really in- Well, then he answered with really in-depth responses, and then in the flight business [inaudible]. ME: Yeah. No, no, no. There is a lot of thoughtful lefties. The other one I remember is when he had Gore Vidal on and Gore Vidal called him a Nazi, and then Buckley we called him a fag or something and it deteriorated, but I do not know if that was Firing Line or some other show, but that was unusual for Buckley. He kept it at a certain level. SM: Two classic books of the period was C Wright Mills in White Collar, which was a book that really explained the IBM mentality of the 19(19)50s and I think a lot of boomers went against that kind of mentality. Daniel Bellow interviewed up at Harvard a couple of weeks ago. He is pretty up there in years now. SM: There we go. SM: There we go. SM: And Daniel Bell wrote The End of Ideology, which I think is a great book too. I do not know if I asked this earlier, but you were too young, but what are your thoughts on the free speech movement at Berkeley, because it happened in 64 and 65, and it was really about the right of free speech? ME: Well, I am all... SM: On the campus itself, and that kind of was the beginning of all the protests really. ME: I am all for free speech, but now it's conservatives that need free speech and in fact, conservatives of some campuses have free speech clubs because they're not allowed to express conservative views for the most part, because it may not be politically correct, whether it's about racial preferences or views about homosexuality or whatever. I am all for civil free speech. We do not have to go after each other personally, but now on most campuses, it's conservatives that are seeking free speech. You go into a woman's studies course and try to have free speech, I mean, the occasional professional might allow it, but most will not. I mean, I hear this from the girls. They do not know ... Most stay away from the women's studies. My own son at Catholic University had a feminist professor for communications course, and so he wrote a straightforward paper about communications. She gave him a C and said, "RJ, you really have to study this more carefully." The next paper I gave him some of the stupid, the Patriarchy is oppressive to women. It was about advertising the car ads, and women are subjugated under their heavy hand. In the paper he wrote this stupid stuff. She does all these checks, " RJ, now you understand," she gave him an A. This is in my own family. He was on a scholarship. He needed the A, so he wrote these idiot papers for the whole semester. She gave him A's. Who needs free speech, huh? SM: Well, yeah. I have been in higher ed for thirty-something years and that... ME: I am sure you were a wonderful professor who welcomed different points of view that were reasoned, but an awful lot of them do not. SM: Yeah. My greatest conversations were in my office over the issues you are talking about. I just say, "Well do what they did in the (19)60s. Protest. Challenge the vice president of student affairs." Anyways, who are the great conservative women that you are talking about? Of course, I know about Clare Boothe Luce. What makes some of these people today... ME: Well. SM: Were there any others besides Clare Boothe Luce and Margaret Chase Smith, this... ME: She had a saying, Mrs. Luce, and in fact, we have it on our newsletter. I should get you one. It is called the Luce Ladder. "Courage is the ladder upon which all other virtues climb," something like that. What makes them great? First off, they are smart, they are beautiful, they are articulate, but they have the courage to stand up and say what is perhaps politically unpopular. That is Bay Buchanan on immigration. SM: I know Bay real well. ME: That is Carrie Prejean. She gave an honest answer. She is not a politician. Her thoughts about traditional marriage, Michelle Bachman, everything. I mean, she is tough. S.E. Cupp, she is pretty new. A star says welfare hurts Black families. Phyllis, we just talked about her, ERA. I mean, it is courage. It is the courage, and this is what we do here at Clare Boothe Luce. We try, not everybody is going to be up at the podium, giving the speech arguing professor, but whatever venue women are comfortable in, we try to give them the courage, the background, the depth of knowledge, the encouragement to stand up and defend their own conservative beliefs. Courage is the key. SM: Well, I think that they need to be seen more on college campuses, because that is what the (19)60s were about. ME: That is right. SM: The (19)60s were about standing up for what you believe in and if you understand the definition of integrity, integrity means I know who I am. I know what I stand for, and I am willing to stand up in front of an audience, become vulnerable and stand up for my beliefs, even though I may be attacked. ME: Right, and I mean, if that is what the (19)60s free speech movement was about, what a sad commentary on where we are now. SM: Yeah. That is what it was about. ME: Yeah. Let us have all points of view. Now, I was not for closing down the university for trashing the professor doing defense research, his office, that kind of thing, but different points of view, sure. SM: I noticed that you had a couple speeches that you give the listings of your speeches, and one of them was the failures of feminism. ME: Right. SM: What are the failures of feminism? What are they just real quick? ME: Well, the modern radical feminist movement, the greatest failures that they do not represent the use of most women. The leadership based on their own quotes and the things they have to say, too often, they mock women who choose to be full-time mothers. Not all of them, but enough of them do. They criticize women who do not toe the line, certainly on the life issue or the choice issue, whatever you want to call it. I mean, they are brutal about that. They do not represent women. A lot of them, I mean, when you go downtown to NOW and you go into the office, National Organization for Women, I will tell you what is going to be on the big table in the front. About a third of it will be about AIDs, about a third of it will be about lesbianism, and then the other third will be about abortions. I mean, they have really narrowed the focus in a lot of ways or go to their website or go to the feminist majority. I mean, lesbianism, AIDs, and abortion. This does not represent women. SM: That is interesting because Susan Broma was almost said the very same thing as a liberal. ME: There you go. SM: She said that she tried to raise the issue of pornography within the women's movement and Feminine Mystique... I forgot her name, Betty Friedan. ME: Yeah-yeah. SM: Would have nothing to it. No, we are not going to be talking about pornography. ME: Yeah. Well, that is interesting. SM: Yeah. I have that on tape, and it got very frustrating, she said. Also, you mentioned here, comment on your speech, "Women's studies, conservatives not welcome." I think you have already gone over that. Did you have any gap with your kids, any generation gap at all with any of them on issues? ME: I had three boys. The biggest challenge for my husband and I was the social pressures on the boys to do things that were not acceptable, but they all turned out okay. They all go to church. My mom and dad lived across the street for years, and I took care of them like you did yours. My kids were so respectful and so helpful to my parents, and that was wonderful for them. They turned out pretty conservative, but we did not really beat it into them. One of them is really an active conservative. The other two are just kind of go about their business. No, I mean, it was the social pressure. It was the drinking. It was all the friends doing marijuana. It was the sexual promiscuity, but we got through it. They are all in their twenties and they are all doing well. SM: That is good. You did not have any generation gap with your parents, did you in any way? ME: No, but some of my siblings did. I loved them. SM: Yeah. ME: I got along with them. When you were a teenager, they would get on your nerves, but my father moved down here and he said, "Do you think I could move across the street?" And I said, "Well, it would be fine with me, but check with Ron," and Ron said, "Sure." I mean, I got along with him, but I know not everybody does. I feel truly blessed to have had him. SM: The other thing, I got just about four more. ME: Okay. All right. SM: The issue of the term empowerment. We had Tom Hayden on our campus several years back, and he wanted to know if the students of student government, what kind of power they had. They were talking about that they were empowered. They said, "Oh, yeah, we can control the budgets and give out money to student organizations," but there is something that Tom said, "No, I am talking about empowerment, where you have a voice and everything." Empowerment is a term that is defined by activist students in the (19)60s, in the early (19)70s, not power, but which term do you like best? Empowerment or power? Because empowerment is really a (19)60s term that came out all the time. Students always said, "I want to be empowered. I want my voice in the decisions that this university makes." It was much more... ME: Aren’t they different? Aren’t they different subjects? The university president has power, okay. SM: Yes. ME: He has a tremendous amount of power to make decisions. The head of your department has a tremendous amount of power. Hiring, firing, or whatever tenure. Empowerment is, to me, it is somebody who feels they do not have power and they want to have a bigger voice. SM: Yeah. That is what the (19)60s was about. ME: Right power, to me, is sort of more absolute. Empowerment is having a little bit to say about this and that and being listened to. SM: Do you like the term empowerment then with respect to women's issues? Like the conservative students? ME: I am for power myself. SM: Well, that is all I need to hear. The issue of healing, and we took a group of students to Washington, DC in the mid (19)90s, and they came up with this question. We met with Senator Musky. ME: Oh, yeah. SM: About six months before he passed away. ME: Oh, yeah. SM: And we thought he was going to respond about the year 1968 because he was the nominee for the vice president. The question was this, that the students came up with, "Due to the divisions that took place in the (19)60s between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who were for the war and against those who supported the troops or were against it. Do you feel the boomer generation, those born between 1946 and (19)64, are going to go to their graves like the Civil War generation, not healing from the divisions of that time?" The question is really, do you think that many within the boomer generation that were involved in the activism are having issues that they have not healed? ME: No. I think most people move on with life and life is what it is. We certainly change our views on different things. I mean, think about when you were 16, and then when you are a parent with your own kids, and it is life that changes and heals you. You are tired of your parents saying this and that, and then suddenly you are a parent, and you have kids. It is a part of the growth and development that we all go through in life that makes us heal because it just moves on. SM: Do you think though, if Safers had Phyllis Schlafly sitting here and Betty Friedan, not Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem is next to her, that the divisions that they have had, that they can heal between their divisions, is that practical or? ME: I mean, does heal mean agree or just be civil? SM: Just be civil. ME: Yeah. I think they could be civil. SM: Yeah, because there is a lot of lack of civility today. ME: Oh, Bay here does TV shows with some of these lefty women, and I will not name names, but she... SM: Yeah, she is really good. ME: She has told me that they will sit in the green room and talk about all the common things moms and wives talk about, and then they go out and- SM: Okay, that is good. ME: But I do think that women, there is always stuff we can talk about. Men too, whether it is sports or whatever, but women talk about husbands, talk about children, whether you are lefties or not. I mean some anyway, so you find the common ground and you do that with your neighbors. You do not talk politics, or we do not. We talk about the kids or the street or the shrubbery or whatever. SM: I think that that war in Vietnam really divided this nation in so many ways and that some people have said, you need to rephrase the question. Those who were against the war and those who went to war, because I think there is still some things going on there that really... ME: Yeah, but I mean, we have had these subsequent wars, and we have had 911, and we have had the fall of the Soviet Union, and even people who may be opposed, the war supported it, these other things have changed them. So healing, yeah. SM: How about the issue of trust? Because a lot of the students of that particular period, I do not even say them, the conservative students too, especially the young Americans for freedom, is they did not trust people that were in positions of authority that were running the war. I mean, a lot of the students of that era did not trust anybody in a position of responsibility, whether it be a priest, rabbi, minister, vice president of student affairs, congressman, senator, you name it, President of the United States. Anyone who is in position of authority, I cannot trust. Do you see that as a negative within the generation, or? ME: No, I think it is a great thing. Look at the tea parties. Believe me, these are people who do not trust those in authority. I think skepticism about government is always a good thing, and people in authority questioning is a good thing. SM: Yeah. That is what political science majors are taught. ME: Yeah. SM: Not having trust for your government is healthy. ME: Absolutely. SM: It means liberty is alive, and well. ME: The founding fathers did not have trust. SM: Yeah. ME: That is why they got all these different protections. SM: Yeah, that is pretty much... Finally, here I have, what do the following mean to you? And these are... ME: Oh, trust, but verify. That was the other one. SM: Oh, trust but verify. Yes. ME: Trust but verify. Okay. SM: Yes. ME: Okay, you can go ahead. SM: There is something else that Ronald Reagan said that I have always kind of lived with. If you are not afraid to let someone else get the credit... ME: Yeah. It is amazing what you can accomplish. SM: Yes. ME: And that is true. SM: It is important. ME: Absolutely. SM: That is a great quote. ME: I do that every day here at Clare Boothe Luce. Give them the credit. SM: What do the following mean to you? What does the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? ME: Well, it means the controversy because the architect was opposed to the war, and many people felt that her design was not noble and what it should have been to honor those who lost their lives, but I know a lot of Americans go there and very much appreciate seeing the names of their loved ones. SM: When you went there for the first time, what is the impact that had on you? ME: I did not go. I have not gone. SM: You have not gone yet? ME: No, I do not. I will be-be too emotional. SM: Yeah. I go to about ten times a year. ME: It is like, no, I have not been in the Holocaust Museum. This place would give me such nightmares, I know. Somebody was talking about it the other day. I do not watch movies that are really horrible. It is just my head, the way it is. Stuff goes on and on and on in my head. It is like, life is too short. SM: What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? It was a major event in 1970. ME: It is like, who shot first? What a horrible thing, but there has been some stuff out recently that it was not the soldiers who shot first, but what a horrible thing that should not happen on college campuses. It was such an incendiary time. It was such an emotional time, but if I am a soldier and I am shot at, I am going to shoot back. Who knows who shot first? SM: I know that there is a tape out now that they're bringing a revelation that the National Guard was given orders to shoot. They are revealing that. The March on Washington 63, what did that mean to you? SM: Civil rights? SM: Yes. Dr. King, that great... ME: If only we would have listened to him. "Judge my children not by the color of skin, but the content of their character." Excuse me, what are we calling affirmative action, huh? Aren’t we judged by the color of the skin? If only we would have listened to him. SM: Yeah. I know the purpose of affirmative action. If you talk to an affirmative action director at a university, they will say is that we do not want to have affirmative action. That is the goal, but they still have it as far as... ME: All these years later in the Supreme Court cases. In fact, I have got a black girl as an intern this summer. Vincy Ann, native of Cameroon, now she is a citizen. She said, people come up to her on campus, she goes to Truman State, and say, "Well, you must be for affirmative action." She says it drives her crazy. She is studied, she has worked hard, she has gotten to college. It is such a negative thing for achievement-oriented minorities. SM: It is interesting because Steven Carter, the great professor at Yale who wrote a book on affirmative action and says, in the beginning of his book, every time I go into my law school classes at Yale, I know the students are looking at me saying I got here because of affirmative action and that is real sensitive to him because he earned it because he was smart. ME: That is the downside of it. We had a friend who was at Georgetown, a Black kid, and teachers would come up him, how are you? He said it was so condescending. He was at law school there. SM: What is 1968 Chicago? That convention, what did that mean to you? ME: A bunch of rowdy criminals. SM: Do you believe that happened in our country? It is just like.. ME: When I see this world, the money economic things, sort of like rent a riot, rent a mob, what a horrible group. People that got stuck in those crowds and were afraid for their life. I mean, that is no way to behave. SM: How about Woodstock in (19)69 and the summer of love in (19)67? They get the real counter cultural events. ME: A bunch of people who, I guess liked music but dirty and having sex out on the ground and drinking and drugging and no thanks. SM: How about the hippies and the yippies? ME: Yeah. SM: Hippies and yippies. ME: I mean, not people I especially admire. SM: How about the students for democratic society before they became the weatherman and the weatherman... ME: Before they came radical, they were a point of view. That is a fine thing. SM: And the weatherman need... ME: Right. Blowing things up. SM: Yeah. What about the Black Panthers? Did you... ME: Well, I know this last election, there was a Black Panther standing outside the Philadelphia polling station with a bat to discourage certain people from voting and Eric Calder, our attorney journal, said, no, I am not going to look into this. SM: I know. That is the new Black Panthers. ME: I mean, I think they are violence prone and probably not the best vehicle to promote racial harmony. SM: How about the Vietnam veterans against the war in 1971, they threw their... ME: John Kerry. SM: John Kerry, but he was a mild one compared to most. ME: Right. We took care of him with sweep up veterans. SM: Bobby Mueller was in that group, I know that. I think Ron Kovic was in the group. ME: Right. SM: Actually, Bobby Mueller was not. He made a point of saying I did not become a member of the Vietnam veterans against the war. ME: It is a point of view. It is fine, but I do not think it played too well with the American people. When Carrie... A story was told over and over. SM: How about Earth Day 1970? ME: Everybody loves the earth, the land, take good care of it, but it's become a religion to some of these folks. Especially in the schools with the little kids. Cannot talk about God, but they have this religious fervor about recycling. SM: How about NOW? National Organization for Women. ME: What a pathetic excuse for a woman's group. They are just hostile to anybody who does not toe their line. They do not support the women. Often, they will support the man if he is a more left-winger. Do not call yourself NOW. This is great American conservative women. Say what you are. The national organization for left-wing liberal feminist women. Say what you are. Do not pretend. SM: Wouldn’t it be great to be able to bring these individuals together with the other side and really have a two- or three-day learning experience? This is what I want to do. I have only got two more questions. This is what I want to do, but after my book is done, I want to bring people together. I am going to start something where I am bringing people together. I just talked to James Fallows, the symposium about the Vietnam War with the General Wheeler and Bobby Mueller and Sam Brown and Susan Jacobi. I said, "Wouldn’t it be great to bring you guys back together from after 1975?" ME: I think it would be. Make sure [inaudible] there so everybody can watch. SM: Well, I would like to bring these people together because first off, I have worked with so many different speakers, and this is all about education in our students. ME: It is. SM: This is about the future. ME: Right. It is about hearing all kinds of different ideas. SM: Stonewall, which was the major event for gay and lesbians in (19)69, any thoughts on that? Because that was the rallying crime for... ME: Not really. I mean, the truth is there has always been homosexuals since the beginning of time, and there always will be. In terms of the movement, for a long, long time, what they talked about was people ought to be tolerant. You know what? Most Americans are intolerant, but it has shifted from tolerance to, I want you to affirm what we do, and that is what most Americans resist. Tolerant? Sure. I mean, I do not want to know what you do at night, but then do not get on my face and say, "You need to say that what we're doing is a really good thing," because I am not going to say that, and that is the division, and that is the problem with the movement. SM: I think the one area is the American Indian movement because they were here first, and that is a very sensitive issue. They have always been in... Dennis Banks was... ME: Right. SM: And of course, Alcatraz. Taking over the Alcatraz in (19)69 and the violence at Wounded Knee, but just your thoughts on the Native American movement, because... ME: They are right. They were here first, but go around the world and how many countries where the people that were there first no longer run the show? For American Indians, I mean, if there was ever an example of how the government can ruin a whole group of people by paternalism and over-involvement, it is the American Indians and the reservations and the massive failures that the government intervention has had there and the terrible problems they have. Alcoholism, that, I mean, the casinos, I guess, have helped them in an economic way, but is that a beautiful example of too much government in the lives of a people? SM: Yeah, I know. So, the Latina, everybody thinks the Caesar Chavez, but it's much more than that because the young Lords were kind of copycats to the Black Panthers in the late (19)60s. I know in Newark that was the case. ME: Yeah. SM: The Watergate. ME: Yeah. SM: What is your thoughts on Watergate? Took an administration down. ME: What a stupid thing. Dishonesty, but what I always think about with Watergate is the contrast between Nixon when he was quartered and Clinton. Nixon resigned and it was over Clinton. It went on and on and on and on. He was impeached. He was not convicted, but it went on and on and on. This is the difference, the two men. People love to hate Nixon, but to me, Nixon cared more about the country than Clinton because he just got out. It was over. Was what Clinton did any less bad, lying under oath, blow jobs with the girl in the Oval Office, all that stuff, than Nixon? No, but what they did, the way they reacted when the whole country was in such a turmoil about it, that says something to me. I give Nixon more credit than I do Clinton. SM: Two last questions. The music of the era, just from the experience that you have had with conservative students, not only now, but back then, the music was part of the culture back then, and it was also might have been identified more with the liberals as opposed to the conservatives. When you talked about the folk music, the rock music, the Motown sound, and the messages that were in that music, did you identify with that music? ME: Sure. I mean, I danced. I liked it. I sang. SM: Were you a Beatles fan, like everybody? And how about Bob Dylan? ME: I want to hold your hand. Not as much Dylan. SM: Joan Baez and the [inaudible]? ME: No, not as much the folk. I mean, different tastes. My husband's a Stones fan. I do not know if you know. SM: Yeah, Rolling Stones. ME: He argues they are basically conservative. They think about the tax fan and all that, but I think that the music then was tame compared to some of this rap music about the hoes and raping the girls and all this kind of stuff. I mean, the worst they would get was the leader of the pack and I do not know, going to the drive-in movie and it was sort of tame. SM: What do you think, I know it is very difficult to say this for 74 million people, but when the best books are written on a particular era, it is normally 50 years after an event. A lot of the best World War II books have been written, are being written now. What do you think when the boomers have all passed away? This is a little longer, and what do you think historians and sociologists will be writing, because they will not have been alive when the boomers were alive. What do you think they will say about this baby boom generation that grew up after World War II and the events that shaped them in their time? ME: Well, it is all compared to what, I mean, I think they will say that a lot of us worked really hard, did what we believed in, raised our families, paid an awful lot of money to the government that wasted it in taxes, did our best, the technology boom, we were part of that. Freeing millions of people from communist oppression, and they will talk about the mistakes. And I am not sure what that will be. It probably would be electing Obama is one. Say we repeal healthcare and a couple of other things, which a lot of people want to do. They will talk about those things, and whether it was right or whether it was wrong, but I think that historians will write kindly. SM: Do you think they will say what the issues that we are facing today with the economy, this attitude that many of the boomers had that I want it now, I need it now. The students, these young people, conservative and liberal, grew up in the (19)50s when parents wanted to give them everything. They wanted to make life better because they grew up in the Depression and experienced World War II. Even in the African American community, that was, well, even though it was more stable in the (19)50s than it ever was in the (19)60s. Do you think that want it now mentality, even though in a very analytical way, is a reason why we're in some of the problems we are today? Because the people that run the world today are really boomers and the oldest of the generation X-ers, which is the group that followed them, ME: I am not sure want it now is the reason for the problems we have. I mean, you look through history. The problems we have now, throughout the centuries, people have had it. Different times, different circumstances. I am not sure I would attribute it to the boomers want it now. SM: Do you think that the Susan B Anthony's and the Elizabeth Katie Stanton would, if they were to see what was happening today in America, and the women's movement would be right with your... ME: I do. SM: They would be here... ME: On abortion, they were a hundred percent for life. SM: See, that is something that really should be brought up within the women's studies programs too, so that everybody sees clearly. Is there any questions that I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? ME: No, you asked a lot. In fact, I wondered what is he going to ask? SM: Well, thank you very much. ME: Well, thank you. SM: Let me at... (End of Interview) Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michelle Easton Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Easton, Michelle ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute; United States--Officials and employees; Easton, Michelle--Interviews Description An account of the resource Michelle Easton is the president and the founder of the Clare Boothe Luce Policy Institute. She was appointed to a position at the U.S. Department of Education and previously served as the President of the State Board of Education in Virginia. Easton received her Bachelor's degree in Development Psychology from Briarcliff College in New York and graduated law school at American University's Washington School of Law. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-06-29 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.187a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.187b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 122:19