39 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/75578ef1998f72a143b14bc658419bbf.jpg 69726bd483b567729b1ee94cf0a0ff28 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/9f06e027ab7e6607bc3ccd8e6a8e7699.mp3 6bc70c55ab410f001b4872d4e7ac72e0 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2012-01-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Barbara Cox Easley Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Barbara Cox Easley is a civil rights activist most known for her involvement with the Black Panther Party while attending San Francisco State University. She worked in the Oakland, C.A., Philadelphia, P.A., New York, N.Y., and international chapters for the Party. She also participated in several survival programs hosted by the Party. Easley continues her dedication to social work and political activism today.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Barbara Easley-Cox is a civil rights activist most known for her involvement with the Black Panther Party while attending San Francisco State University. She worked in the Oakland, C.A., Philadelphia, P.A., New York, N.Y., and international chapters for the Party. She also participated in several survival programs hosted by the Party. Easley continues her dedication to social work and political activism today.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;March on Washington; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; The Black Panthers; Weatherwomen; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Stokely Carmichael; Music.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">March on Washington; Nineteen sixties; Nineteen seventies; Civil Rights Movement; The Black Panthers; Weatherwomen; Baby boom generation; Vietnam War; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Stokely Carmichael; Music.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 217:23 Subject LCSH Civil rights workers; Black Panther Party; Easley, Barbara Cox--Interviews Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Barbara Cox-Easley Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Eden Lowinger Date of interview: 26 January 2012 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) 00:01 SM: I got two of them, and I keep checking them every so often. First question, what do you think of the 1960s, and the 1970s? What is the first thing that comes to your mind? And how would you describe the time from your own life experiences? 00:24 BCE: A raising of consciousness? I think the March on Washington was 1963, I think. And that seemed to bring a nationwide attention to the whole question of civil rights, education, that type of thing. I was in California the latter part of (19)63. 00:59 SM: You want to turn that TV off? 01:00 BCE: Oh, yeah. 01:04 SM: Okay. And I check things, every- 01:10 BCE: Give me uh, read that question again. 01:13 SM: When you think of the (19)60s and (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? How would you describe the time from your own life experiences? 01:24 BCE: As stated, the March on Washington in (19)63, was an eye opener. I myself, I was living in, I had moved to California the latter part of (19)63. I was aware of the concept of not being able to get a job because they were not hiring Blacks at that time. But after the March, I applied for a job with the Pacific telephone company, and I was hired immediately. And I always attributed that to Martin Luther King and his group was soldiers, to people who were on the frontline at that time. Now in (19)66, or maybe a little earlier, I attended San Francisco State Community College. And then I transferred to San Francisco State College. And that was the beginning of the student uprising, the Black Student Union at San Francisco State, and it spread like wildfire across this country. And in 1967, early part of (19)67, I was introduced to the Black Panther Party. So, in a matter of seven years, before 1970, I had gone from a nice Catholic girl to a revolutionary-revolutionary comma radical feminist. I mean, my own personal growth was amazing in that period of time, but it was all in connection with the broader social, and cultural environment. And I was very fortunate that I was around people who were the leadership of many of the movements. Yeah. 03:57 SM: How did your parents respond to that? From being that Catholic girl in high school to being- and you went to high school in California? 04:03 BCE: So [inaudible] I was born and raised in Philadelphia. I think it frightened my mother, but I do not think it frightened my father because he had made a statement years ago- because I am a daddy's girl, and I grew up under him- he will never have to worry about me, because he knew I had common sense. He died in (19)69. And let me back to Philadelphia for a few moments. 04:51 SM: Now again, that was from going from Philly to San Francisco. 04:55 BCE: Listen. My father introduced me to a very nice young man who was a soldier. And I had been writing him for one year. And he came back and he made me an offer I could not refuse. He said, "I want to get married, because I do not want to be looking for women out on the streets. But you cannot have children for five years, and you must go back to school." I said, "Okay." So, I thought it was a very good opportunity to leave my mother's house. You know, the [inaudible] fourth [inaudible], that was just amazing. And for five years, we stayed married, and at the end of the five years, we were still friends. To this day, we are still friends. His wife and daughter call me I mean, it is amazing. But he made me go back to school, I started night school. But we were always talking about events that you see on the nightly news. So, besides my father, he was the only other- not only man, but one of the first men in my life to make you a partner in life, you know, educate you, update you. Otherwise, I would have been an empty-headed little cutie. So that was how I got to San Francisco. But at the end of the five years, unfortunately, I had outgrown him as it often happens. And but we thought it friends I mean, I served him the divorce papers. So, you know. 06:48 SM: Yeah, it says here, how did you become who you are? And I mentioned this, I say your growing up years, your high school, your college, who your role models and your mentors. And of course, you already mentioned how you got to San Francisco, Oakland area and, how did you become a female Black Panther- so-so you were right now out in California, and you meet these people who were more worldly than this gentleman. And that kind of- 07:15 BCE: Um. [disagreement] 07:15 SM: -more political more–? 07:17 BCE: It was not more worldly or more political at the time. It was that I had gathered some inner strength. You see, I was not afraid to move out on my own. I never have been, come to think of it. But my sister had moved to California and she was living with me along with several other women. So, it did not strike me as that big a deal. Also, Emily and I had become friends because gone to school together. And he was sort of the first person I knew that was in that Black Panther thing, and– 08:16 SM: He was going to the community college too, or San Francisco State? 08:20 BCE: I think it was community, I would have to ask my sister because she will remember that part much better. But the student movement on campus at that time and the history books, tell some of the story. It was always so busy. But I would go and do whatever I could do. But I was not taking a leadership role, even though there were women there what doing that and I chose to shift my attention to the Black Panther Party. I found them to be, I do not want to use the word exciting, but fast moving, fast paced. You know, they had the newspaper, they were opening up offices. And I also, and we also had introduced me to my future husband, Donald, Donald Cox or DC as they call them. So, I had moved in with DC or no he had moved in with me. That was what the feeling was. And I was kept busy with Panther activity, the breakfast program newspaper, selling the newspaper, political education classes. At one point I had gotten into some trouble, because I was a little petty bourgeoisie. [laughter] And you know that some of that Catholic background coming up, you know, you hear all the stories about sexism and you hear all that. But I was, at one point, I had a 10-point platform and program on how to conduct yourself in my house, on the door! Oh boy, they used to- I used to rile, but at any rate they had suggested I do, I think was a week or two weeks of 24-hour duty. So that means you go to breakfast programs, you go to sell papers, then you come back to the office and you cook, and then you work overnight, doing something. And I chose to do political education places, that meant- 10:56 SM: And what did that entail? 10:59 BCE: Generally, the younger members or new members, you would take Mao Zedong's red book, several of the books that were good, but Mao Zedong was the main book at that time, and even the newspaper, and you would read and discuss what you read, make it pertinent to today, frame of reference so that people could understand. You know, when you talk about Marx and Lenin and Stalin, and [inaudible], you need a dictionary. And many of our members were very young, you know, educated but not. And some of these books and words, they had no experience. 11:53 SM: What was the age of these-this group? 11:56 BCE: I would say 15. I would actually say 15. Because Lumiere for 15, when he joined. 12:06 SM: [inaudible] this book 12:06 BCE: Yes, oh I am in this book too, yeah, I am in here, but that is another story. So, they were like 15. And because youth, even our youth is a very romantic time in your life. Right, you are invulnerable, you are going to live forever, and you are going to accomplish so much. So, the youth made up a large majority of rank and file members. Now, the older members, and I would actually include myself in that in terms of what was I, 25, 26. Life experience had taught me certain things. And if I read something, and I believed in it, that, you know, those were my guidelines. And, however, as my father had told me, many years ago, I never hit you, let no man hit you. So, joining the Black Panther Party did not present a problem to me, because I know you put your hand, I am going to get you. 13:32 SM: So, you were a stronger– 13:34 BCE: I- you could not verbally or physically abuse me. And but because I was associated with Don Cox, and he was to field motion on the Central Committee, 13:47 SM: Right? 13:47 BCE: Nobody ever really bothered me. 13:50 SM: This is an important point is no one was really brought up, because I have seen Bobby speak live, I have seen Bobby speak like four times- 13:56 BCE: Go ahead. 13:57 SM: –from when I was young, and then older, but that most of the people that you were trying to educate and prepare, -and also the individuals that were older than-that they all had a strength within them. You know, they there is this image of this toughness, and, you know, the pigs and all this other stuff. But there is also a sense, I get a sense of self confidence, not arrogance, self-competence, and being proud of who one is. And to make sure that is the most important thing, proud of your background. 14:30 BCE: Well– 14:30 SM: What were you trying with instill in all these recruits? 14:33 BCE: But see, that was the period of the early (19)60s. Black is beautiful, James Brown. 14:41 SM: Right. 14:44 BCE: What was going on, Marvin Gaye, the group from Philadelphia. People getting ready for the train to Jordan. I mean, that whole period of time was- especially for the youth- very much like Rent became back in late (19)70s, okay. Of course, I am not sure it led them-them in the right direction. But– 15:12 SM: Right. 15:13 BCE: But that period of time built up something and a lot of young people, and-and I do not think it was just the Panthers or African Blacks, it was Latinos. Everybody was getting a sense of their history which had been denied to them. So that rapid growth from (19)60 to (19)75, yeah. And it has not gone away. See, it has not gone away. It is still here. But I would say that we were so intent. So, driven by the free Huey movement, we were constantly seeing other activity, whether it was Black, white, Spanish, speaking from this example. And then I think, for me, it was the heroes of not just the civil rights movement, yes, civil rights movement, because Stokely came from there, rap came from there, Fred Hampton out of Chicago came from there. So, Bobby and Huey, who were very dynamic, dynamic– 16:54 SM: Smart. 16:55 BCE: Smart. 16:55 SM: I know he was a smart– 16:57 BCE: And Eldridge [Cleaver], when Eldridge came- 17:00 SM: Yeah, he was smart too. 17:01 BCE: You see, and all of these people running around the country. But they were ours. So yes, we did stick our chest out a lot. And some fantastic things were done. You remember the whole [inaudible] between Jane Fonda, and the French woman- I cannot remember her name-, Leonard Bernstein. A lot of the musicians, if we had a function, maybe they would come, you see. So, California at that time, was-usually the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, but the sun was in the West coming to the East. Now, but on the East Coast, New York with its own fabulous African American Black history that goes all the way back to Marcus Garvey. By the time the Panthers came to the East Coast, they embraced it because they were already there. They were, they already knew history. So certain, you know, other communities. Like they might have liked the leather jacket and the man with the straw, that thing. But and then, too, we were ambassadors. And that, for me became a very good thing because by my husband being the Field Marshal, he traveled all over the country. And every chance I got, but New York, and Philadelphia, and especially Philadelphia. When I came here, that was when I met Amir and the people in Philadelphia chapter, and I also met Merriam and Bill Sadler, who became my bubby and my- Bill was killed right after the split. William Sadler was killed and I was overseas I could not come back because it was too dangerous and I always felt the split was the reason he was killed because wherever I was, him and his wife, they were right, Barbara will get it Barbara do not worry about it. 19:41 SM: Was that (19)82 around? 19:43 BCE: No, the split was-we had the babies in (19)70, (19)71– we tried to go to Germany and we had to wait. That was the early part of us (19)71, he was killed. 20:00 SM: Right here in Philly? 20:01 BCE: Yes. If you put, if you Google William, Merriam Sadler, you will come across. But that was a very hurting thing for me. 20:18 SM: Was it that was around the same time Fred Hampton was. 20:21 BCE: No, he was- 20:22 SM: He was killed in- 20:23 BCE: (19)60, um, Fred Hampton was killed- 20:27 SM: We know he was killed in- 20:29 BCE: (19)69. 20:33 SM: He was probably too much of a threat to oh– 20:35 He was just a brilliant young man. 20:39 SM: What- One of the things I want to mention as an African American female- 20:44 BCE: Yes. 20:45 SM: -in this period from the 1950s, you know, growing up in the (19)50s, even before meeting the Panthers and going out to the California norm. And then of course, being in California, and then your life since- I have tried to break it down. When you think, when you look at the periods of boomers have been alive, it has been 65 years. This is the first, this past year is the first year that the boomers actually reached- 21:08 BCE: Yeah. 21:09 SM: -65. And so, I break it down. What, what was it like I have four periods, or five periods. What was it like being an African American female, between the end of World War II in 1960, when John Kennedy came in, and then that whole period from 1961, to 1970. And then you got into the (19)70s, from (19)71, to (19)80. And then you had the period from Ronald Reagan from (19)81 to (19)90, the Reagan Bush era, and you had the Clinton era. And then you have the Bush Obama era, just from your own perspective, and maybe from not so much as-as a Black Panther, but as an African American female, and even who Kathleen in there, you can clear from a female's perspective from an African American female perspective, how do you define those periods for African American women, in your view? 22:05 BCE: I can only define it for myself. 22:07 SM: That will be fine. That is– 22:08 BCE: Okay. Because I never all, or most. 22:12 SM: I cannot, you cannot generalize. Yeah. 22:16 BCE: I remember the (19)50s because of the Korean War. My uncle was a sailor and a cook on the ship. And he used to come home with souvenirs from different countries. But I remember he used he brought us these dolls, little dolls one inside of the other day. And he was talking about Korea. I did not know anything about Korea. And he told me the military since Truman had integrated the military, you had more Blacks everywhere. He said, but I can honestly tell you that it is very difficult for them. And he talked about- I think it was Germany at the time, because he traveled all over- and he was saying how they would run up and ask you can I see your tail. Now. 23:23 SM: This is 1950? 23:25 BCE: Yeah, he was telling stories, because he has been in the service. So, I am very young. I do not understand it all. But we were protected as young girls. See the community I grew up in, everybody protected children. And I was acutely aware of that, okay. Now think, because I live here (19)63. But the one thing that- I am a daddy's girl, as I told you before- my father talked to us. He took us to see movies and would explain what we were looking at. And I remember several films, that till this day I watch him. One is "Nothing but a Man." And that was the experience of a Black man, wanting to marry the preacher's daughter, the school teacher, and people were not going for that. And integrating the Pullman- yes, see that, he then he explained all that. [inaudible] that cowboy movie and everybody loves and Alibaba with John Derek. But the song was sung by Nat King Cole. And my father said to me, "Do you believe a man can be that beautiful?" [laughter] So, but he did not like any Tarzan movies? He said, "That is not realistic." And James Bond he never liked, he never liked. And I did not I do not like until this day. But that Superman concept, you see? White Superman? No, no, no, no. So, for me growing up, everything was a history lesson. Every experience is valued because we were protected. On the weekends, he would work the bars and he would sit us at the end of the bar with a hamburger and a soda. And tell us, “Never drink when you are out by yourself. If you want something to drink buy it and put your money under the glass, you are not for sale for a drink. You see that woman over there? Do not be like that." So, I grew up with a very strong sense of self, and image. Image. He took us to the gas clubs but I was so young, I missed that. I could not grasp that, you see. Whereas my mother was you know, she worked the factories home buddy. Nice. She taught my sister how to bake- I still do not know how to bake- see I was a daddy's girl and my sister was my mother's daughter. But and then in the (19)60s. As I said my first husband, he made me stand up even straighter. Because he always used to say "If something happens to me, what you going to do." And that was always a thought. But I also had my father's ability to integrate myself into people's lives, make you feel like you knew me forever. Even though my eyes would glaze over, I would still be interested in your conversation. So, I would never, you know you just become that person. And now the (19)70s I returned back to America because I lived abroad about three years. Coming back to America in latter part of (19)73 I found a whole new world, I mean, the turn brothers sister did not mean anything anymore. It was the beginning of the drugs and you know other things. But because of my background I never got into that, stayed away from it. It was not appealing. I did waitress work for two years in the heart of what I would call the drug territory. 28:21 SM: That is in the Bay Area? 28:22 BCE: No right-right here. And but my thing was Hi, hi. Hi. Hi. Because I was not interested in that, and for me, the revolution was still going to come and during that period too I had, my husband was an exile several of my friends were killed or jailed and so I was a woman with a child. I had to make a living. I had to make some decisions. And having a bubby helped. Merriam Sadler, was wow, when she passed that that was hard but no, is a bubby a mommy or daddy? I just know bubby [inaudible]. But so, I made-she sold me a house for $1 at that 20th in Colombia. And I rented the first two floors out for income. Then in 1975 I got a job with the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania as a social worker, and I stayed there 25 years, 26 years. But I liked the job because the job actually paid me to do what I love. 30:14 SM: Helping people. 30:14 BCE: Helping people. So, and through those years, the organizations that I have affiliated with have always been something that evolved around people, and also the Panthers 10 Point platform appropriately. So, for me growing, it was good, because I held on to my past to go into my future. And I recognize that if you are wishy washy, or you change your name midstream, or you become involved with [audio cuts off] 31:04 SM: My next question is in your own words, define Black Power, let me, define the difference and then define the difference between a revolutionary and an activist. So, in your own, define Black Power, and secondly, the difference between a revolutionary and an activist– 31:29 BCE: My own words, define Black Power? 31:37 SM: Mhm. 31:37 BCE: [whistles] I guess we would have to look at the definition of power first. And what does it say? Influence, sometimes by force. So, but Black Power is the (19)60s slogan. Everything meant self-pride, okay, a source of growth. And a change in Gower Black Power, okay. For change. But Black Power, like I said, influence by force or by persuasion. Still working on that. Okay, still working on that. And it is not something that is for me, a local national, it is a world concept. For me, it is a world concept. It does not just belong to those who lived in the (19)60s. It is a world concept. And it has so many aspects, I could not begin to give you details on that. But the difference between a revolutionary and an activist I think it is a mental state. Because I would not you know, I would not call myself a revolutionary in the sense of now, but I would call myself an activist for change. Because the word revolution can be applied to lipstick nowadays if I am not mistaken. [laughs] So revolutionary, this, that and the other. So, revolution is a term I would not use lightly, because now they do not even take revolution. They say things like the Arab Spring, the Arab Spring. 34:07 SM: I think a lot of people that have a problem with the term revolutionary- because I went to a conference just last year at Kent State. Several of the white activists still consider themselves revolutionary. And when you read some of the literature, some people make fun of that term because they are talking on what are you Che Guevara and Fidel Castro? I mean, what are you trying to prove here? Or some leader? [inaudible] on Africa, but are we talking about? I mean, what are you talking about? So how you how the term is used, and what is the feeling I guess? 34:52 BCE: Well, it is also like I said, a mental state of mind because among my intimates I might say, "I have revolutionary thoughts." But I know activism is constant. It is a constant for me. 35:14 SM: It says, my next little thing here is describing any issues, you or your Black Panther, female peers had with the conflicts between Black Power and the so-called civil rights movement or the women's movement. Could you be both? I remember I bring this up because Johnnetta Cole is, she wrote a book called Sister President and in there, I mean, she was so involved in the issues that you were involved in. But then she also got involved in the women's movement. And then there was pressure within the the-the Black Power movement or whatever to what-what are you doing over there? I mean, you got to concentrate on this. Play Dr. King going north. No, you got to stay south, Dr. King, you cannot talk about Vietnam, you are, you are you should be talking about African American issues in the United States. It is like, so- Did you sense that? Did you and your peers, those women, those powerful, self-confident women, that your peers in Oakland, with Kathleen, you and others, Lane Brown, did you feel that there was a tension? Because if you not only cared about Black Power, but you also cared about Women Power, was there a tension here? 36:29 BCE: You have touched upon two issues, all right? Within the organization, women– 36:43 SM: I just have to check one thing, it is not always– 36:46 BCE: That is alright. 36:47 SM: Yeah, especially this one right here okay we are fine. 36:50 BCE: But within an organization, there came a period where women were demanding more, not responsibilities. Well, responsibilities, respect. leadership roles. And for the most part, some of them of chapters and branches across country that was given, that was given because you had women in Boston-I think in Chicago, too, but-but what I am saying is that women were used, instead of just cooking, or selling papers, our intellect was called upon. Okay, now, the bigger feminist movement that came what was it, the early (19)70s, no? 37:49 SM: Late (19)60s, early (19)70s. 37:50 BCE: Yeah, okay. That was a European type movement, if you think about it, Gloria Steinem take off your bra, I want to come out the house. So those issues, were not really something that many African American women focused on. And, and several have testified to that. But there had to be alliances between some women between some thoughts, because we were all after the same bigger picture. So, I myself, and quite a few of my associates, for lack of a better term, at this time, we were open to almost anything. But, of course, as you said, the Party came first. 38:56 SM: This, this is really important, because I asked this to Emory too. And I know over a year ago asked it to Ross and I have asked a lot of people. A lot- it did not matter what color you were and the background you were the mere fact that in the civil rights movement and the antiwar movement, one of the reasons why the women's movement evolved was because that women were placed in second class positions. And, and we know now that there were many women in the civil rights movement, who were down on the South that went on Freedom Summer, getting Casey Hadden and the list goes on and on. So that is not the case, and then we all know Dorothy Height, was the only really female that was on the platform in 1963. It was all men, Mahalia Jackson saying and-and certainly Mary Travers was there with Peter, Paul and Mary– 39:44 BCE: Yeah-yeah-yeah. 39:44 SM: -but the women outside of Dorothy Height, they were not seen at that, at that march. And I think that was very sensitive to Dr. King and most of the civil rights leaders, and certainly the antiwar and the question is like, what I am getting at is within the Black Panther Party, within the-the Black Power movement, were you treated with respect were you given, were you were you not only looked upon the- for your intellect as well, you know that is what I am getting at because a lot of the people went into the women's only because they were treated as second class citizens. How did the Black Panther male– 40:19 BCE: Wait-wait-wait, [inaudible] you are going- they went into the women's movement because they were treated as– 40:26 SM & BCE: Second class citizens. 40:27 SM: In the antiwar and civil rights movement. 40:32 BCE: Well-well let us look at this. As I told you before, when I was in San Francisco State, I shifted to the Black Panther Party because it was more exciting, more driven for me. But the type of individual that I am, that Kathleen is, Elaine Brown, Ericka Huggins, Audrey out of Boston, I cannot think of Audrey's last name. Sasha Core, I think even Fanny [inaudible] at some point. The women were not only in the party, getting beaten and thrown in jail as much as any man. Our numbers was, our numbers were great. Many women, there were a lot of women in the party. Sometimes it was four women to one men-to one man. So, decisions were based on who can do the job. Now, there was some chauvinism. I am not going to deny that, but because I was able to function quite well, and my husband kept me in Philadelphia, the next thing I knew, they was saying, "When you come back with, you better come out of there, we need you around here." Because I worked very well, raising money, influence. But it was also due to the Black Panther party that was here in Philadelphia, they were open to suggestions. They were open to dialogue about, "Let us gather, what should we do." 42:27 SM: And were not threatened by new ideas? 42:29 BCE: No, no. And, well, "Barbara, you are good with all in the peace groups, you to go downtown, you deal with that. You go over there and deal with that." So, the best thing he ever did for me was send me here, because I was like [breathes deeply], so overseas, wherever I went after that, I knew what I had to do. And I would always drag women with me. "Come on, I need to come on." Now, but working very good with men. So, the women who joined if they the weathermen, you know, and the Peace and Freedom Party, okay? Because I remember them. And they were hell raisers. They were great. They were like freedom! Burn the [crosstalk] Oh, so they were like, "Let us do this." And that the civil rights movement, look, it from a church, okay. It started church people. They met- and they were older, and even the student movement of the so many young, Black people and white people that went. 43:56 SM: Yeah. 43:57 BCE: Yeah. They started out voter registration, okay, fine. But you see that? What does Stokely say at some point? Is, "You come in here with a gun, I am going to get a gun." So, you think that elevation and growth of, "No, Daddy, I am not, I am not turning the other cheek. No mom ah-ah, it is not going to happen." So, in my mind, it is like you grow and you develop. So, within the movement, people come in. And I think too the reading material that we have all given the heroes that we worship, foreign and domestic. Yet, things change. 44:50 SM: I think it is interesting. You raise a very good point here because you talk about the church, when Dr. King replaced the minister in his very First Church that Dr. King- that minister was kind of let go because he was a rabble rouser on pardon me, I forget his name I cannot believe. Like, I am really upset that I am going to, but then Dr. King-King came in and gave his first sermon and you remember seeing the movie about that? Yeah. 45:18 BCE: I thought we just going to run [laughs] 45:20 SM: And Dr. King never planned to be what that Dr. King became, he wanted to be a minister. And so. 45:26 BCE: But you cannot help– 45:27 SM: But he went the next phase and then then you have Stokely and HRM Brown coming into the next phase challenging the John Lewis's and the Bob Moses' is in terms of the [inaudible] setting that is going. So, you are seeing that more commonly, would you, could you describe Oakland in 1966? Because that was when the Black Panther Party was founded. What were the reasons behind the formation of the Black Panther Party and what were the living conditions in the Oakland Bay Area or in California where African Americans felt that the civil rights movement, that nonviolent direct-action approach was not working? 46:03 BCE: Well– 46:04 SM: I thought that was a big challenge to Dr. King and Bayard Rustin and James Farmer. Right, [inaudible]. Is that different? 46:10 BCE: Well, I think, a police state, for lack of a better word, and [inaudible] 46:21 SM: Knew it. 46:21 BCE: And I do not think it was up to the West Coast. Because Reza was here in Philadelphia, so we were talking basically a police state and sort of like the Hispanic people. I am not sure, is the correct word Hispanic or Latino now, find themselves in Arkansas. You are harassed simply because you are of color. And young boys are, are more flammable than, say, a middle-aged black man. And, and this is not unique to California. So, you know, oh, he was carrying a gun. That was why I shot him 100 times. So, Bobby and Huey, as they state in many articles and books, said "What can we do to stop the police from doing all these horrible things in the community?" And so here we are, what, 50 something years later? No, 40 years later, right? Almost 40 something years later, and we find ourselves still burdened with police states, the blue line, the code [inaudible]. Then at that time, the other thing that might add to that is that many police departments were not really integrated. No Asian, Latinos or Blacks. So, you know, that whole period of time was ugly. And even though the Civil Rights segregation marches, the pickets and so forth, had come to California, that was the basis of the Black Panther Party. 48:33 SM: Interesting in your thoughts over the years, I know this happened at the [inaudible] house campus, because the students just did not like the cops. And they were white cops that were coming, they were 50 and had a beer gut. And there was, they wanted to create a younger police force and actually one that did not symbolize Bull Connor in the south, which is what happened the (19)70s. But the question is a lot of African American, Latino and Asian American men and women have been hired in the police force, but there still seems to be-I am just me- there still seems to be that divide. You still see the divide even though the police have been integrated? It is almost as if those of those cops are cop outs or something. 49:18 BCE: Well, I have very few police friends, okay. I have very few friends that are ex policeman or whatever. But they only reflect a larger society and in these troubling economic times, it is not even a question. It is a fact. 49:46 SM: Yeah. Who were- I am going to come, I have a question here on names and I got to find my list here but-but who were the original- I am going to read off questions that will come back and one of them these are the questions I want to ask, who were the original Black Panthers? How many more there? What was their background? Where do they come from? Wherever they headquartered, and how did they recruit? I think you have already talked about that. What were the 10 basic points and how many men and women were in the original group. And we-we already did the, were women treated as equals and have the Panther Party spread nationwide, and why were they labeled as threats to America? And what were the main causes? And what did they do for the community? And how were they named in the logo and bringing some also, some questions about that meeting that that your husband had with Leonard Bernstein and the dislike for Tom Wolston in his book, but, and I got the names of I have the names of the people that I want to ask about some of the originals, but yeah, who were the original Black Panther and– 50:55 BCE: Did you answer me, that question? [laughs] 50:57 SM: Yeah, I did, really was not getting it in this and I am going to go right to this point. Because for young people- 51:05 BCE: Yeah. 51:05 SM: I am a history nut, and these people need to be remembered 100 and 200 and 300 years from now– 51:10 BCE: Go ahead. 51:11 SM: For young people who are not aware of the key leaders and personalities and people linked to the Black Panther Party or Black Power movement– 51:20 BCE: Go ahead. 51:20 SM: In a few words, who are these people and why is it important to know something about them? And these are the people that [inaudible] one at a time but Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, 51:32 BCE: Mhm [agreement] 51:33 SM: Bobby Hutton. 51:34 BCE: Mhm [agreement] 51:35 SM: Eldridge Cleaver. 51:37 BCE: Mhm [disagreement] [inaudible] original– 51:38 SM: Ok, um Fred Hampton. I am just throwing the names of Eldridge Cleaver, Katelyn Cleaver, Dave Hilliard, Elaine Brown. Donald Cox, Stokely Carmichael. H Rap Brown. And those are the individuals just a little bit something about them. Oh, those are the originals right there? 51:58 BCE: These are the original. 51:59 SM: I am going to take a picture of this. Because I know we all know Bobby, and we all know who Huey. We know Bob- We know, Bobby Hut- we know about the murder. 52:06 BCE: Big man. 52:07 SM: We do not know about him. 52:08 BCE: Big Man. 52:09 SM: We need to know more about him. We need to know more about him. 52:12 BCE: The Forte brother. 52:13 SM: Yeah. See, the history books have these three. These three. 52:17 BCE: Yeah. 52:18 SM: They do not have these three. So, I would like you to maybe say a little bit something for the book about those six. 52:25 BCE: Oh. 52:28 SM: So why do not we go one at a time. Who was Huey Newton? 52:32 BCE: Okay. Huey Newton was a student at Merritt College at the time, right. And Bobby was also, that was where they met. Okay. Little Bobby Hutton. I am not certain how he got involved with Huey and Bobby. Um, the Forte brothers, Reggie and Sherman. Were and I think and sort of bad boys on the corner. But and Big Man. 53:14 SM: What is his full name? 53:16 BCE: Albert Howard. 53:18 SM: Okay. 53:19 BCE: Albert Howard. Big Man. I do not remember how Bobby said he met him; you know what− 53:28 SM: Are any outside of Bobby. Are they oh, any other? 53:34 BCE: Bobby and Big Man are still here. 53:36 SM: The rest are gone? 53:37 BCE: Yeah. Gone-gone-gone. 53:39 SM: What happened to Forte Brothers? 53:41 BCE: No, wait-wait-wait. Reggie, uh kidney stuff. 53:48 SM: Okay. 53:50 BCE: Sherman Forte. I did not see him when I was out there. I am not really sure where Sherman− 53:59 SM: Let me turn this off until you are back. Because we are just basically describing who they were and why they are important. Huey Newton. 54:11 BCE: Huey was a nice young man, intelligent, very, very smart, a good reader, you know, articulate who also had a concern for Black people. I think that had a lot to do with his background, his parents are from Louisiana, if I remember correctly. Yeah, I think so. But when you look at any of the films and early writings, you could see the concern for Black people in general so and the same for Bobby Segal. The very same for Bobby Segal. And together I think they, there was a killing, a young boy. And the first newspaper was a mimeograph. But if you go on the website all of it is listed and I think that was the first thing that struck them as so wrong, unjust. I just encourage people to look at some of the films because you are asking me about personalities and certain things that I really did not have time to deal with. 55:42 SM: You think it was? I do not want this to be a setup question. But the way he died, he was, he was shot being accused of drug trafficking. Well, what how did, how did the guy with a PhD− 55:53 BCE: Well, that is true. I mean, you know, that was, that was how he died. But I do not- Eldridge. He died. Eldridge died from what was it, a massive heart attack, stroke whatever. How did he go from being the hero to the bum that we did not want to deal with? There is an expression of the good die young. Because you still got a chance to fuck it up. [laughter] And like I said, the- we was a microcosm of society− 56:39 SM: That is a great quote. 56:41 BCE: Aren't we just, you know? I mean, it is business with the Penn State man. 50 years of coaching, and all you going to be, you are not, you are going to be remembered for that. But you are going to be remembered in connection with the [inaudible]. 56:59 SM: They always tell young people too that you do, you could do 100 great things in your life, but they only remember the bad ones. 57:05 BCE: Okay. So, and then I also, my husband had written. 57:16 SM: Yeah, yeah, and who was Donald Cox. 57:18 BCE: Oh, here we go. Cut it off. 57:23 SM: Your husband, who was Donald Cox? And why was he important to the Black Panthers? What was his again, overall, his role, his work? And then of course, I know something happened in Baltimore, and he had to go to Europe. And he lived there the rest of his life. So, who is Donald Cox? 57:40 BCE: Okay, Donald Cox was Field Marshall of the Black Panther Party. He was also a person who had lived in the Bay Area for about, I would say about 15 years or so. Very quiet. Gentlemen belong to NAACP, loved photography. He worked running a printing press in San Francisco. Little shop there. And his cousin Fred Dolan mentioned to him about these gentlemen over in Oakland were talking about carrying guns. And he said, "Really?" [laughter] And he said, "I would like to meet these guys." Well, the one thing that he did when he did meet them, he realized that he knew more about guns because he grew up in Missouri than they did. And he instructed them in the use, the care the buying the selling, how to so they made him a Field Marshal. Which meant you ran all over the country your first task was to make sure that the office was set up in a proper way, certain rules and guidelines were followed and etc., not all people were privileged to his private instructions. Okay, he literally just surface stuff and he was responsible for security because Stealth Lee, Rapper, it is an endless list of names that came through our house. If you came through San Francisco or Oakland, he was responsible for your safety. Now- 1:00:10 SM: Was he in charge of like when Kathleen went off to [inaudible] State, the people that were on the stage was− 1:00:16 BCE: No. 1:00:16 SM: That was all the locals and that was the panthers. 1:00:18 BCE: Yeah, because he was still overseas. He left- was the 1970s, he left? 1:00:25 SM: But when he was doing this role and say, Eldridge or Bobby and Huey and Stokely and H. Rapper going around and Kathleen, were going around speaking, was he, did he go as an advance person to make sure that there was safety or-? 1:00:39 BCE: Not always but you know, what is really funny? Excuse me. Not always, but you can see that− 1:00:54 SM: That is Stokely. 1:00:55 BCE: Yeah. And Angela. 1:00:58 SM: That is, that is a young Angela. 1:00:59 BCE: Yeah. Before she went to jail. And that is me. 1:01:03 SM: Oh, what a great shot. 1:01:06 BCE: And it is me. So, we− 1:01:09 SM: Got a great shot. 1:01:10 BCE: Yeah, and see, this is a poncho. And in the poncho, I had a [inaudible] ranger, okay. This gentleman behind here, always carried a gun. People were carrying guns. You could carry guns back then. 1:01:26 SM: Yeah. 1:01:27 BCE: I mean, I was on− 1:01:28 SM: Yeah, that was to protect you. That was the whole concept of the Black Panther was, "We are not going to shoot you, we are just going to protect ourselves." That was his method. 1:01:37 BCE: Well− 1:01:37 SM: Yeah. 1:01:38 BCE: Whatever. But the other thing, young, romantic. We did not know it all. We did not know how dangerous the beast could be. [laughs] But, and Don, he really loved the- he loved the party. He loved the party. He had disagreements with the leadership because he could not, he was not a chauvinist. I think that was the thing they really got him in a little bit of trouble on and off. 1:02:10 SM: Who were the chauvinists? Or you do not want to mention that? 1:02:13 BCE: History will tell. 1:02:17 SM: Okay. 1:02:19 BCE: I do not think Bobby was a chauvinist, because he had a decent side to himself. But he was swaying too often. Some people get swayed. 1:02:36 SM: And the other ones are in that group there. They were the main force, those six. 1:02:42 BCE: These guys were not. 1:02:44 SM: They were not chauvinists? 1:02:47 BCE: Big Man, no. He was too young. He was funny. One night he kicked the door in looking for some guns that Eldridge had left at the house. And it was really funny because what I think that was the night Don- Don was there. 1:03:17 SM: What a great shirt that is, oh wow. 1:03:21 BCE: And June Hager, David’s brother. 1:03:25 SM: Oh, yeah, and that is Don, right? 1:03:26 BCE: That is Don. 1:03:27 SM: And who is that guy? 1:03:28 BCE: Big Man. 1:03:28 SM: That is big man. Okay, and this is who? 1:03:31 BCE: June Haggins. 1:03:34 SM: When was that picture taken? 19- 1:03:36 BCE: (19)69, I think? 1:03:42 SM: Now, the one thing I wanted to ask here is that meeting that he had with Leonard Bernstein, I met the man, you go into the web, and that is all they talk about. 1:03:50 BCE: I know. 1:03:52 SM: Now, he was there raising funds for the 21 in New York. 1:03:55 BCE: Yes. 1:03:56 SM: And, and then you guys ended up really disliking Tom Wolf, because he wrote that book. 1:04:02 BCE: Well, I do not think everybody dislikes Tom Wolfe, but back to the girls− 1:04:09 SM: That was the first days- I will wait. We ended up getting to meet Leonard Bernstein. And I guess it was at the− 1:04:21 BCE: I do not remember. 1:04:21 SM: −same building that John Lennon lived in the− 1:04:24 BCE: Oh, the butcher’s name building. Yeah. 1:04:26 SM: Yeah. 1:04:27 BCE: Well, I do not remember the details. But here is the thing. When the New York 21 got busted, somebody had to come back to New York because the whole leadership was and the rank-and-file members. So− 1:04:47 SM: What year was this? 1:04:49 BCE: New York 21? Had to be (19)69. I can double check, but it had to be (19)69- a lot happened in (19)69. He came back, right? And so, this huge uproar about all these Panthers being in jail. 1:05:17 SM: And those 21 Panthers were the leadership of the New York chapter? 1:05:20 BCE: Yes. And some, yes, rank and file person, young people. I think they just came to the house and took everybody. But here is the other part of it. So, Don comes back, they sent him back with one or two other persons to sort of like, find out what is happening, what can we do blah-blah-blah-blah. Well, the newspapers are running around like crazy. There is a lawyer, lawyer by the name of Arthur Turco. I do not know where Turco is now. But it is Arthur Turco and he, the Nation of Islam, quite a few other Afrocentric groups, and they are all running to the office to show support. You got newspaper people running their- Arthur Turco is representing some of these people, and he is offering his services. So, you just have a multitude of people. Now, I would have to go get Khan's book. To give you some more details on that. Can I get it really quick? 1:06:39 SM: Yep. What did Don do in Europe from the time he went over there to the time he passed? We are talking 30 years- 1:06:47 BCE: Yeah, you are talking 30 years. Well, he was in Algiers, the first six or seven years, but when Eldridge and Kathleen, when we had the international section, so he was over there. And then when that fell apart-you always make friends remember too you always make friends− 1:07:12 SM: Yeah. 1:07:13 BCE: And French person or two said, "Come out of Algiers. Come to France, get over here. If you get here, we can help you." And so, he got there. And he did photography, high fashion photography, because he was a good photographer. He did photography. He married a French woman who had money. [laughs] And when he called me, he said, "I am leaving!" I said Don, "Please do not leave, please stay with this woman. “Friends-wise I like her a lot, but she is a piece of work. But so, they were married about-? Well, I do not know if you remember this, but the French government started clamping down on immigrants. And they started with, must have been in the early (19)80s. They started with Africans with no working papers. So that was a problem because even though you were not an African, you were not a Frenchman, so to speak. So, because he did a lot of rehabilitation of housing, too. So, he decided to leave Paris and go to [inaudible], which is in southern France, the base of the Pyrenees Mountains area. And he bought a little farmhouse there. He fixed that up, started growing, really grew his own food, his own marijuana. And he got into aromatherapy. He was so good at aromatherapy, it was unbelievable. And the house was huge, beautiful place we were trying to sell it now. And he would have, people come from Paris. And like I said, he was not a chauvinist, and at one point he had all these Muslim women come down there to talk about fighting back. Fighting, "How did we get from behind the veil?" 1:09:52 SM: So, what is happening today? 1:09:53 BCE: Heck, some of them may be still there. But the aroma therapy became, that was why when you were talking about books. 1:10:04 SM: Yeah. 1:10:05 BCE: He has got a wall of aromatherapy stuff. And he got noticed in one of these aromatherapy magazines. 1:10:15 SM: Right. 1:10:15 BCE: And he hung with that for years, he would sell. He would take some plants and stuff and squeeze the juice out and sell it to different people to create odors. So, he made a living with that, it was not a lot. But one thing that really blew my mind with him was astronomy. He has got a what is it called, telescope. When I went to move it, ah shit! [laughs] I had to go clean up the house. But if he was sitting here now, and we could look out to the stars− 1:10:58 SM: He knew it. 1:10:59 BCE: He knew it. 1:11:00 SM: So, it was just a hobby, it was an interest, like his photography. But that was professional though. 1:11:04 BCE: Yeah. But the, so you had aromatherapy, astronomy cause the magazines came to the house. And then you had, oh, the French and African slave trade. I got to find someone to speak [inaudible] all those history books that he collected]. 1:11:23 SM: And those six years or six years in Africa, he-he led the main headquarters for the Black Panther Party in Africa, or? 1:11:32 BCE: Well, it was Eldridge, Don, Pete O'Neill. 1:11:37 SM: Stokely went over there too, did not he in the end? 1:11:39 BCE: No-no-no. 1:11:41 SM: Okay. 1:11:41 BCE: That is something else. He went to Africa, but he is not come there. [laughs] I am trying to find the spot− 1:11:50 SM: Again, when you talk about the− 1:11:52 BCE: Oh, he has radical [inaudible]. 1:11:54 SM: Okay. 1:11:55 BCE: I am just looking. 1:11:56 SM: As like, as you are looking here. So, when you were talking about the originals, there were, these were the six originals then, the six originals we talked about. 1:12:04 BCE: Mhm. 1:12:05 SM: And where did they all come from? Did- where did Huey come from? New Orleans originally, he says− 1:12:13 BCE: Louisiana. 1:12:13 SM: Louisiana? 1:12:14 BCE: I am not sure. 1:12:16 SM: Where did Bobby come from originally? Does he grow up in Oakland? 1:12:21 BCE: His family has a southern history. 1:12:26 SM: How about the brothers? 1:12:27 BCE: I do not know the Forte brothers' history. 1:12:31 SM: And then Bobby Hutton, same there? And Big Man? They were all living in Oakland, though at the time. 1:12:36 BCE: Yeah. 1:12:37 SM: Nobody was in San Francisco. They were all Oakland and they all kind of met. 1:12:40 BCE: Except for Emory. 1:12:42 SM: Right. 1:12:42 BCE: Emory is not on there. 1:12:44 SM: Right. 1:12:45 BCE: But he was next in that circle. 1:12:47 SM: Right. And there were no women then in the original. But who were the original first women? 1:12:57 BCE: Matilaba, or Tarika [Joan Tarika Lewis], her name is Tarika now. 1:13:03 SM: How many original women were there? 1:13:06 BCE: I- Huey had a girlfriend named Laverne, Bobby was with Adi. I could not call any names beyond that. 1:13:20 SM: So, they really the beginning was the girlfriend's then? 1:13:23 BCE: Girlfriend or wife. 1:13:24 SM: And that was how Kathleen- because she got to know Eldridge? 1:13:28 BCE: Eldridge had Stokely on one of his trips back East. And he was impressed. And then Katherine and Stokely and some of the NIC brothers came out to− 1:13:40 SM: And how do they spread nationwide? Well, how did the word- I know the Black Panther Paper in Oakland? But how did New York and Chicago and Atlanta and Philadelphia, how did they find out about the Black Panthers originally, how did it just spread? 1:13:56 BCE: Well, here is the thing, the newspapers and the TVs helped, but also people would tell their relatives in different cities. So, if you were interested in it, you had to come to Oakland to ask to form a branch or a chapter. And that was what they did. They came, they came. 1:14:21 SM: And why were they labeled as a threat to America, in your opinion? It is well documented, the police liked to call them thugs. And so, they would use a denigrating term to show their insignificance, but in reality, they were watching them all the time, and why were they labeled as a threat to America? 1:14:44 BCE: Well, why did we call people terrorists nowadays? And what does that really mean? Now we have homegrown terrorists, but I think labeling is part of the first step of disposing of any obstacles, you are you are labeled, then you are set up. You are infiltrated. Like I said, we were young and romantic, we did not realize the nature of the beast. But now, thanks to the internet, everybody knows everything. And, but it still disturbs me. When I see homegrown terrorists, 14, 15, 16 years old in Florida, planning to blow- get out of here. You infiltrate these little young boys or girls and buy some chemicals. And then you got a case against them. Come on. 1:15:59 SM: We all know that he talked about the threat of the police and so forth within the community. But what if someone were to come here today and, what do you think the main sort of misinterpretation of the Black Panthers are? What would you say? There is an interpretation for many that they are no different than the weatherman. They were they were cre- the weatherman may have stood up, but they also believe in blowing up buildings, so they want to kill people. They want to blow up buildings. Black Panthers did not want to blow up buildings. But there is this perception when you talk about radicalism and lack of law and order that Natalie Lee talked about the weathermen that talked about the Black Panthers, why is that? 1:16:47 BCE: Why not? 1:16:47 SM: What is the misinterpretation? 1:16:49 BCE: Well. 1:16:49 SM: What would you like to say to that? What image that is created about the Black Panthers are you most upset about? 1:16:59 BCE: That we dislike white people. That we were racist. And that we were violent. No, no more than anyone else. No, no. And we were a group of young, maybe idealistic, maybe romantic, young people who wanted to see a change. Now, I really did not answer that. Yes, I did, yes, I did. Because 1:17:50 SM: And how were the Black Panthers named? Why were they called the Black Panthers? 1:17:55 BCE: Oh, well, we took that I think they took that from the [inaudible] organization. They had the Black Panther, when they were voter registration. They were using the Black Panther of Lowndes County, somewhere down there. But we were the Black Panther Party for self-defense. And it is very important, for self-defense. 1:18:30 SM: And the Black Panther Party stood for much more than that. What were some of the projects they were involved in? I know, I know, the list goes on. We know about the food program but- Yeah, yeah. Just in a short synopsis. What were the programs that the Black Panthers were involved in that not only were well known locally, but became part of the national scene in all other cities? 1:18:54 BCE: Let us say well, the breakfast program led to feeding kids in America, in schools. The medical clinics, we focused on sickle cell at that time, because that was something that had not been-we had a lot of people with sickle cell anemia. Prison-prison, taking families to the prisons, you know, we saw that as something that needs to be done. And the food and clothing giveaways is of course, were a great success and also the-the image but I like the idea of internationalism that we put out there. 1:19:46 SM: You are known all over the world. 1:19:48 BCE: Yes. 1:19:52 SM: So-so you when you talk about that is why that term revolution when you talk about what was happening in America, revolution, there was a link to revolutions in other parts of the world too, revolutions in Africa. Whether it be Cuba− 1:20:11 SM & BCE: South America. 1:20:13 SM: There was a link there. It was kind of− 1:20:16 BCE: It was, and you well, you know, North Korea, Mao Zedong even Russia, before World War II. But was that in relationship to the word revolutionary versus activism? A state of mind? Because we were not fighting like, in Ireland, the IRA, correct? 1:20:53 SM: [inaudible] 1:20:53 BCE: Yeah, I mean, these people actually sniping, killing bombing. I mean, ongoing, historical situations. But yeah, we were we were revolutionaries. Definitely in our mental states, but not so much in the physical situation. And never got a chance. [laughs] 1:21:22 SM: You know, it is interesting, you know, Harry Edwards. So, who was- Harry, we brought to our campus, and he wrote a book that we were required to read in grad school, to which I think it is one of the greatest books ever written? It is called "Black Students." And it was a brilliant book about activism and it is really defining revolutionary, militant, activist, and anomic activist. 1:21:47 BCE: Anomic activist? 1:21:48 SM: An anomic activist is a person for hire who does not give a darn about anything except, "You just give me the money and I will do anything you ask." And that was the ones that he said people fear the most about. Anomic activist is not the Black Panthers. I mean, I think they were referring kind of to the weatherman there. 1:22:08 BCE: But no-no-no, I do not think the weatherman would "Give me the money and I will do anything." 1:22:12 SM: No-no, that is true. I think what we are referring to here, is he just put that down as a [inaudible] because he felt that a lot of the leaders of the movement were older. And [inaudible] on college campuses, the militants were the-the older ones, who were the role models for the younger activists and so forth. And then revolution [inaudible] another thing. If you have anything more to say on that meeting with Tom- could not find it? Did you find that though, the way America was treating that incident with that situation when he goes to visit Leonard Bernstein these chic Hollywood types? What do they have to do with the Black Panthers? I mean, they were trying to raise money. I know a lot of people make fun of it. 1:23:02 BCE: Well, but-but also that particular meeting was interesting because the things that came out of it. Okay. That was one thing, but then across the country I like the word European, but I got to say white, because it seems to save time. [laughs] A lot of well to do white people came out of the woodworks across the country. It was not just New York. I mean, here in Philadelphia, I was talking about Dill Miller, little Jewish Quaker man, right. And that was how I got this house. [laughs] Well, not from him, but his organization. And because I was living somewhere and I just keep, I came to a meeting to get away from somebody. And he was there talking about building houses around here. [inaudible] Barbara. So, I put my name down. I did not think no more about it, two days later, they going to be, "You want to house, duplex? You want a house?" I said, "Okay." Because I could not beat the price. And Joe knew me from the old days, because when Huey got out of jail, that was where he went was to Joe Millis house. Down on Spruce Street, you cannot even walk through there without money falling from the trees. See, that Bernstein affair. Chicago. I cannot even in my travels every place I go, it is interesting to me, people want to talk to you. Because "I met your husband" which he was a great, great person, but well, you know what so and so did and so and so did and so and so did"- and I be like, I do not want to hear it no more. Because some of is good, and some of it is bad. But there is one thing that I will never shy away from. And that is your pain. If you have pain from those things, I will not shy away from your story. I mean, grown men had just cried [inaudible]. But I know everybody did not come out of that hole, and it was not just about going to jail. It was a mental anguish. Okay. And you have to take time to listen to brothers and sisters. I mean, I was in Washington, DC so Sherry got really freaked out. I am in Washington, DC, right? It is about, how long ago was that? It has been about eight years now. I cannot quite remember what the reason was that I went down there. And it is this white woman. And I know she is a nurse, okay, because I am staying at her house. And we were at this march and all these Black people around and I got her by the arm because I am staying at your house, and I knew you good people, but I do not know who you are. I get tired, I said, "Oh, I want some seafood. Let us let us go back to your house." So, the young lady from New York, myself, and this woman, we stop, get seafood, we go back to her house. And we were sitting at the table. And she goes, I said, "What is the matter?" "Well, you are the first woman I have had a chance to talk to, I got to talk to you." And she starts talking about how she met her husband in jail. And they have been married over 10, 15 years [inaudible]. And then she starts bringing up these weather women. And I am sitting there because I recognize the names. And "You should come and meet Susie." Fuck- I do not want to see Susie! I do not want to see Jane! But I recognize them from California. And I am thinking to myself, "Okay, we help this woman immediately." But the next day, Susie calls on phone and I go, "Look, I am going back to Philly. If you get the Philly, call me." I do not have to wait for Susie to call me because Josie calls me from California! Susie said she ran into- 1:23:46 SM: Well, from him? Yeah. 1:28:07 BCE: So, the-the pain that a lot of people suffered. Whether it was at the hands of a man or woman, because this French guy, he, oh god he was like, I do not understand [inaudible], I do not know, I do not understand either. But so, I continue my role. You know, I continue my role is there some unfairness in the world? He tried to help. He tried to do something. 1:28:49 SM: You find also the pain because of the experiences of COINTELPRO and what they did to people? I really, I think American I think young people and anybody who knows about anybody who stands up in America, freedom of speech and fight for things. What really happened with COINTELPRO- we know it ended at a certain juncture because Andrew Hoover died. 1:29:10 BCE: Do we? 1:29:12 SM: It was gone into another area where he was being watched, but know Hoover was gone. 1:29:16 BCE: Yeah. 1:29:16 SM: But the question is what, within the Black Panthers community- I have already talked to every single movement, people from every movement, and it affected their lives. What was COINTELPRO? And you know, what did they do and how did they destroy lives? That was the question and how did they destroy lives? 1:29:34 BCE: Well, they put you in jail and your mother and father or your grandmother, do not have the money to get you out or they can hold you up in court for years. People sold their houses, whatever they had to help their children. And I think that is across the board. Now also some of the children died. Some are still in jail. And their families are torn to thunder. 1:30:24 SM: What were some of the tactics that they that they used against the members of the Black Panthers? And did you feel at what juncture was the first time you realized you were being watched? Not just police in the community now, I mean, really being watched. And how did it affect how you did things? How did you live day to day, fear? 1:30:44 BCE: No-no-no fear. No fear. Simply. I was in, I went to get my first passport in Philadelphia. And you go snap a little picture, then you go to the downtown. I remember this man walking up and said, "I do not know we going to let you leave the country Barbra." And he walked away. He walked away. When I was in Germany, my son was maybe 13, 14 months old. First time he had seen snow. I am playing in the snow. And they walk up and the [inaudible] walked up. And you know the sun, but then you see the shadow fall. And I looked up, and that was in the German neighborhood, so the fact that you were a German Ma'am, I did not. And he walked up, and he said, "That is a beautiful son you got there, Barbara." That was the first time I felt fear in my life. They know your name. When a friend of mine, freedom of information, shoot me a testimony when I was in Philly. Negro woman named Barbara Easley [laughs] walked with Rosemary Mealy. And it is like, you do not think about it. You are doing something righteous. And you do that. I do not think Rosa Parks felt fear. Because at some point, you are here. And it does not matter whether you kill me or whatever you do. It is there. You cannot, what are you going to do? You either going to go back to church, or you going to go forward, and get your bead bashed in. But you got to do something. [audio cuts] 1:32:57 SM: You mentioned that Free Huey was a very important happening. What was the Free Huey all about? The Free Huey movement? We know, I saw the posters. And then of course, there is that poster of him sitting in that chair that is on a− 1:33:19 BCE: Oh, it is on my refrigerator. [laughter] 1:33:22 SM: But what was the Free Huey all about? What had he done, to free him, that there was needed freedom? 1:33:29 BCE: There was the shooting, a policeman was killed off the fly. And Huey was shot. And this is in Oakland? Yes. And nobody really seems to know too much more than that, the general story. Now. Of course, we took the position that the police set out to set him up. And so, you get some lawyers and you start a case, you form alliances. 1:34:11 SM: Was this in (19068, or (19)67 or− 1:34:13 BCE: Well now they went to the Capitol of Sacramento was- with the guns. Remember that was first, that was first okay. And of course, they were being followed around. And also, I think, you know, newspapers give you a lot of play. And when that went down, all the black organizations in the area ran with us to the police station, quote unquote, "Free Huey" So the rallying call, that became a rallying call and a very successful campaign because Eldridge took it over you see. And yeah, he did not− 1:35:08 SM: And how long was Huey in jail for that? 1:35:11 BCE: Whoa. (19)70, he got out of jail, and it was either July or August of (19)70. You know, it is funny. We were in North Korea having babies, okay. And you take the radio with the antenna and do like this to hear anything. So, all we would hear was what was the military radio station? 1:35:44 SM: Unless you are- 1:35:45 BCE: You know what I am talking about. 1:35:46 SM: Yeah. 1:35:46 BCE: Radio Free America. 1:35:47 SM: Radio [inaudible] Europe or something like that. 1:35:49 BCE: [agreement] So we could hear that. And we could hear that accused cop killer Huey Newton had been [inaudible] in jail. So that must have been August of 919)70. 1:36:05 SM: So you were, let me get this straight. You were in Philadelphia before you went to Oakland. From what years to what years, you were in Philadelphia? 1:36:14 BCE: I left Philadelphia in (19)63. 1:36:18 SM: And then you went to San Francisco. And how long were you there in San Francisco Oakland area? From (19)63 to− 1:36:29 BCE: I would say (19)68 I started traveling, no, (19)69. 1:36:36 SM: (19)69. 1:36:37 BCE: I started traveling. 1:36:38 SM: Now you were in school there for a while but then you dropped out of school. 1:36:41 BCE: Yeah. 1:36:42 SM: What were you majoring in at school? 1:36:44 BCE: Elementary education, like everybody else. [laughs] 1:36:47 SM: And then in (19)69, what- where did you go from (19)69? 1:36:53 BCE: New York, Philadelphia. I was here. I left. Did I go back? I went back to Oakland about April− 1:37:06 SM: In (19)69? 1:37:07 BCE: No, (19)70. But it was really scary. Because David and his brother June, Eldridge was gone, DC had left. Kathleen was gone. Bobby was still in jail, Chicago stuff. So, the things that were being done are things that I was not used to, did not like. 1:37:56 SM: And it was during this time that I remembered, you know, David Horowitz he was with the [inaudible]. And he said the main reason why he changed from being a conservative- I mean, from a liberal to conservative was because he felt that one of his coworkers at Ramparts was murdered by the Black Panthers. I mentioned that too. 1:38:13 BCE: Was that− 1:38:13 SM: And at that juncture, he switched. He blasted the Black Panthers. He said they were a terrorist group and− 1:38:19 BCE: But Jane, the woman, the white woman− 1:38:24 SM: I think so, that worked in the office, and I know he worked with Eldridge at Ramparts. 1:38:28 BCE: Yeah, but you know, something. Where was I, recently? It was in the last few years. 1:38:50 SM: You were in (19)70. And then you went to from Oakland over to Africa? 1:38:55 BCE: Yes. Well-well see. Eldridge was gone, Kathleen was gone, Bobby was in jail. DC had left also behind this Baltimore indictment. 1:39:10 SM: Right. 1:39:13 BCE: So, I was assigned to work in Oakland. I could go back to San Francisco to our apartment and sleep then I would come back to Oakland, but because I no longer felt that I had the protection of the Field Marshal, it was a little scary. And I contacted Miriam and Bill Seidler my godmother. Back in Philly, "I am thinking about coming home, get some money together. Get some money in case I have to come." Well as it turned out. I was also pregnant. My baby was due in July, end of July, first of August, and Eldridge called and I was there. And he said, "Barbara wins your baby due?" I said, "July, August." Said, "Okay." So, he told June Higgins, "Send Barbara over here." 1:40:25 SM: And he was in Africa at the time. 1:40:27 BCE: Yeah. Because Kathleen's baby is due at the same time, send her here. I was like, "Thank you, God. Thank you." 1:40:37 SM: And well, that was where in Africa? 1:40:39 BCE: Algiers. 1:40:39 SM: Okay Algeria. 1:40:40 BCE: Okay. And so that basically got away. And when I got to Algiers, I only stayed one day. And they put me on a plane to North Korea. So, I was there like, June, July, August, October, almost six months. [break in audio] 15 months or so. 1:41:15 SM: And, you were working for the Black Panthers there, the international organization? 1:41:21 BCE: Yeah. 1:41:21 SM: But you still have links to all the [inaudible] people here in the United States and Oakland and- 1:41:25 BCE: Yes, until the split came. That, you know. 1:41:30 SM: That was in (19)82? 1:41:31 BCE: No. 1:41:31 SM: Oh. 1:41:32 BCE: (19)71. 1:41:32 SM: And this term, the split? What does that mean? The split. The split happened. Who were the people that were being split? And why did it happen? 1:41:46 BCE: Huey came out, like I said, must have been August of 71. I came back to, Kathleen and I came back to Algiers, October. So, there had been some questions about the leadership and direction that the Black Panther Party was going to take. And Huey and Eldridge had differences of opinion. And, of course, we did not realize at this time, that COINTELPRO was also instrumental in setting that up, you know, letters and whispers and phone calls that made you suspicious of certain things, you know. And− 1:42:49 SM: So, like COINTELPRO was saying that Huey was doing this, and Eldridge- that was a lie? And− 1:42:59 BCE: Not all of it was lies. Some of it was because you came to Africa. And you told us what happened to you. I mean, there were people who came. Who said, "Look, man. This is going on that is going on. The direction is, it is not going this way, it is going that way." And therein lies the split. You see, East Coast, West Coast alliances to Eldridge, alliances to Huey. So just not the destruction of the party, but the destruction of the Black Panther Party as I knew it. 1:43:46 SM: It survived though till about (19)82, did not it? 1:43:49 BCE: Yeah, just about. 1:43:58 SM: Who ended up, if Huey was no longer in power and Eldridge was no longer in power and they ended up leaving, who became the power source, that David Hilliard? 1:44:08 BCE: David Hilliard, I think Elaine Brown was also in there. 1:44:15 SM: And that is the period that that David Horowitz talks about where the person was murdered. And does not, he did not talk about the period when Bobby and Huey were- he was talking about- and Eldridge, he was talking about this period because they were close friends, he was close friend of Eldridge. Enough said. I, a couple things here. Many Black Panthers, I think I have already gone over this, but many Black Panther stated at the time that they were not racist and to not hate whites. And, and of course, there was some perception over there that the Malcolm X kind of mentality that all white people were devils. That was what Malcolm had for a short time in (19)63. And then he went to Mecca, and he did not think that anymore. And I think that was part of the reason why, you know, we was killed, but that is another story. But your thoughts on that. That is all, that is another misinterpretation of the Black Panthers then that, that, that white people were devil that was kind of a Black Muslim mentality. 1:45:28 BCE: Well, it was also a cultural nationalist kind of thing. But I had to respect it because it goes all the way back to slavery, quote, unquote, I mean, you know, so you have to understand, well, I will say, like, a white woman. One day, I was talking to her, and we were having so much fun. And I looked at her and I said, "You are all right." She slapped me. I said, "Why did you slap me?" She said, "I understood what you said. But do not you ever forget that I am white." And I understood what she said. So, you-you-you see this− 1:46:18 SM: Yes. 1:46:19 BCE: -thing here. And what was it? I do not know if Tom Wolfe said it in his book, but for some reason I am thinking he might have. 1:46:27 SM: Chic, that radical chic. 1:46:28 BCE: Radical chic was that, all these little white kids run around here, they can take a bath, get the haircut and put on a suit and go back home. You cannot. 1:46:38 SM: [inaudible] Emery too, but it is [ inaudible]. You are- this was when Bobby and Huey, well they were not in jail. When the Panthers are, you know people are threatened by them. But-but everybody was really got you know, you were recruiting people. What would be a- you get up in the morning? You go over to Oakland, what was the typical day like, for when you were working in Oakland? And were− 1:47:10 BCE: You did not have to go to Oakland. No matter where you were, it was the same routine. 1:47:13 SM: What was your routine? 1:47:15 BCE: Routine. Yeah, you were up at 5, out the house by six. At the breakfast program, wherever it was. You leave there if you were lucky 8:30, 9:00. You go to the office. You pick up 25, 50 papers you might sit around for a few minutes with a cup of coffee, some Tito's talking for a while because depending on what time of day, it was, because you want to be out there by 11. You had to be out. So, whether you were in New York, Philly, 11 o'clock you out on streets selling their paper, you generally return to the office after you sold all your papers. Or at least by four o'clock. Five o'clock at the latest people come in and go in the word blank-blank-blank. You would eat a meal because somebody would cook a pot of beans or anything, you know. Some people would actually go home and then some people would go to paint the pads, where you would sleep on the bed or you know, an army cot, whatever you know or you would go and stay at the office and sit around and talk. 1:48:48 SM: This is all volunteer, this is not paid. 1:48:50 BCE: No, no money. Your needs were met. I mean, we would buy women's sanitary napkins. We did not buy cigarettes you know but the personal things of a few people who did not have family contacts or any money coming in. But then some of us were like always kept friends. 1:49:22 SM: You what? 1:49:23 BCE: Always kept friends. 1:49:25 SM: Oh yeah. [laughter] 1:49:28 BCE: You know the thing about the Bernstein thing let me tell you before Bernstein came along. When DC got called back to New York for the 20 months. I was like so tired of these Panthers. I am running the Panther pad and they angry at me because I am cock blocking, so to speak [laughs]. And so, I had this girl named Lydia and [inaudible} what was [inaudible] name? Well, he was Jewish, and he was so funny. So, I would go to the house, hang out there. They would buy all my papers- do not put this nowhere- they would buy all my papers. And I would sit there and eat, drink. I would stay a couple hours, I would not hang out all day because they had snorting coke, see, I do not I do not do drugs, no drugs. And was this guy called Goldfinger. He had he had a plain fight with the Turks over Turkey. 1:50:44 SM: He had a what? 1:50:45 BCE: [rustle like Easley is making a gesture] 1:50:46 SM: Oh, yeah. Cause he was a drug smuggler. I mean, these people were, I had no idea how interesting they were until we got to New York. Because they said "Well, where is DC" I said, "He is in New York," "Where you want to go, we leaving tomorrow" "Oh, I cannot go, I got to ask Bobby" [knocking noise] "Bobby, Ron and Lydia want me to go to New York with them" And Bobby said, "You are going to do some work, you better send some money back" right. Whatever I had on, I left San Francisco, it was cold. New York is like 100 damn degrees. The building where they took me, if you thought Bernstein's building was something, this building put it to shame. I mean, the women were like with gloves on. I thought the one woman was the Queen of England, the way she- we go up into this apartment and Jesus Christ Superstar comes out. White robe blond hair blue eyes, you know. Six feet tall. Oh, [inaudible] Panther was there. I said, "I do not do that". But these little girls who are no more than 15 or 17 [snorting sounds] And they were white or Black? 1:51:25 BCE: [laughs] Is not no Black people snorting cocaine? All these white people- 1:52:22 SM: And is this in the hotel or− 1:52:29 BCE: No, this is this fabulous apartment building. 1:52:32 SM: Wow. 1:52:34 BCE: So, I call DC, "I am down here DC with these people." "What have you gotten into girl," because he knew, I always kept friends. He comes the next day. And he does like this, you know [inaudible] for Roger. That was Jesus' name, Roger. Roger is fascinated, so Roger is going to take us for a ride, Lamborghini you follow me. Wait, but he is going with Candice Bergen. But he is also part of this Hell Angel gun running club. So, he takes DC over there, they going to talk about guns. This shit is crazy. I go up to Harlem. I am so glad to get away. So that was- we were over in Algiers, North Africa. And you know, you pick up the newspaper, the International Herald Tribune. And you see Roger. You see Roger. "Hey there Roger." 1:53:06 SM: What does he do for a living? 1:53:07 BCE: Well, I am going to tell you about Roger, because this is when the mind is blown. Roger's going with Candice Bergen remember that? 1:53:17 SM: Oh, she is gorgeous, yes. The guy with a white girl? 1:54:12 BCE: Okay. 1:54:13 SM: Yeah? 1:54:16 BCE: But see Roger's father- this is what was interesting. Roger's father lived in New Jersey. He wanted to meet a panther. So, we told Roger to bring DC up there. DC and Barbara, I wish I had taken you with me. He said, "there are people with money and here are people with real money." He said it was like walking back in to- but anyway, they made generous contributions. This is before Bernstein, okay. But then you got to look at David, Huey and Eldridge, Roger. All of them, attracting white women with money and all this bullshit. We overseas in an International Herald Tribune, it says, Roger- [inaudible] Roger? Our Roger had flown to London with a case of LSD, a suitcase full of LSD. They stopped him at the airport, put his ass in jail. His father to see Richard Nixon, and Roger comes home on the plane. 1:55:38 SM: Oh, my gosh. 1:55:39 BCE: And when you- that is what I tell people- when I come back, and I look back, I go, when I tell you. So, you ask me questions and I tell you, we were a small microcosm of society, we were that big, motherfuckers is crazy. [laughter] However, however, in terms of an overview of the last 50 years I do not think my experience are any, so different from a lot of people in active struggle, okay. It is just that I am one more, and the Panthers are one more link in the chain of human development. Okay, that we have contributed to history, by example. And the fact that we have given strength to other people and their movement is, it is a blessing. And that I have lived to see that. So, I do not get, I regret nothing. I regret nothing. And I still look forward to active participation and change. No doubt in my mind, whether, you know, I always say, what is my favorite little saying? Is- I cannot do great things, let me do small things greatly? So that, you know, it is, it is just that. 1:57:46 SM: Yep. 1:57:46 BCE: And it is always a pleasure to talk about my shit too. [laughs] That laugh– 1:57:51 SM: Obviously, you know, when I interviewed Emory and when I talked to Roz [inaudible] a year and a half ago. And of course, I want, I really liked Kathleen, because I saw her in person- 1:58:04 BCE: I know, I know. 1:58:05 SM: -at a very important time in my life when I was 22 years old. 1:58:08 BCE: Wow. 1:58:09 SM: And, and the fact is that I, she was, she was young, too. She was not that much older than me. And the fact is, that she was a young woman who was standing on a stage, showing strength. 1:58:19 BCE: Yeah. 1:58:20 SM: And for a lot of the women in the audience, and a lot of the men who were young, that meant a lot. And so, if you ever share that with her, tell her I said this, because I was not just some it just some no, nobody person trying to get a hold of her. I really admired her because of that speech she gave, which you could have heard a pin drop. 1:58:43 BCE: Wait, Kathleen came here and gave a speech to the young black lawyers of [inaudible]. 1:58:50 SM: The Temple? 1:58:51 BCE: No, no. 1:58:52 SM: Oh. 1:58:52 BCE: University of Pennsylvania. "Come downtown," they had the dinners. "Come downtown. I want to see you, come on downtown." So, they are going, "Okay, okay." And [laughs]− 1:59:00 SM: Well, she never comes to Philly to visit you [inaudible]− 1:59:04 BCE: Well, you know something. Is she- what is she, well the email the other day, I know she is going to Paris this week, this weekend, and then she will be back. And when am I coming to Atlanta? Never, cause you going to put me to work. [laughter] Well, anyway. 1:59:24 SM: I have a question here. 1:59:25 BCE: Go ahead. 1:59:25 SM: Please describe in your own words, the meaning of Stokely Carmichael his words when he challenged Dr. King and other civil rights leaders saying, "Your time has passed. Your strategy does not work anymore. Nonviolent protest is old school. Dr. King would never support protesters" and I have heard of this, "Dr. King would have never been the kind of person"-neither would Byard Rustin or certainly James Farmer or Roy Wilkins, or Whitney Young or even a Phillip Randolph or even John Lewis− 1:59:56 BCE: Go ahead. 1:59:57 SM: -who would support the protesters with guns surrounding the capitol in Sacramento because they believed in nonviolent, they would think that would be violent. Your thoughts on- you were aware that Stokely challenged Dr. King, there is that famous picture of Dr. King in like this with Stokely, well, that is really not when Stokely said that- a lot of people try to make that, that is the moment. That was not the moment, but it was through words and speeches. So, the question I am asking is− 2:00:27 BCE: What do I think about it? 2:00:28 SM: Yeah, what do you think about that, "Your time has passed", that is what Malcolm told Byard Rustin in a [inaudible] too. 2:00:34 BCE: But that is also what children tell their parents when they rebel. I am the new school, I think he was with the Sydney [inaudible] and guests who to come to dinner, when he had the speech with his father in the room. And he told his father the same thing. Youth has its own growing, you eat the get out of the way, or they push you out of the way. But sometimes if you are very lucky, they will allow you to hang around. But sometimes the contradiction is so great. And at that time, the contradiction was great. So, I could see Stokely saying that. I personally believed in never going against my family, you know, especially my mother and my father. They were- I mean, you call mom before you call God. So, think about it, you know. But in moments of anger or moments of egotism, you say thing. Not necessarily, it does not mean I will not support you. I just cannot go along with your program any longer. 2:02:08 SM: He has not met. When I reflect upon this, I think of Stokely and his commentary about to Dr. King, whether it was in person or through a lecture or whatever it- or through the papers, or an interview, or and Malcolm debating Byard Rustin in 1963, in New York, where he said, "your time has passed," and he said, "your time has passed." But it was not in a disrespe-. And Malcolm did not do it in a disrespectful manner, it just said it is for years moved on. 2:02:41 BCE: But, but also, we all part of this continuation of bringing humanity to mankind. You know, we are- I mean, Barbara Russell did some great things. Martin Luther King, we have to recognize ancestral progress, because you would not be here today. So, you know, come on. But those were flamboyant times. So, what you going to do? 2:03:16 SM: Yeah, and of course, and correct me if I am wrong. It was around this time that Nick was dying. Because, because what the, John Lewis did not want to go the direction of Stokely. 2:03:28 BCE: No. 2:03:29 SM: And neither did Bob Moses and Moses went on- he was leaving anyways. But yeah, but they were the original Snick and Snick was kind of splitting to with the H [inaudible] and Stokely going to more of a Black power. 2:03:42 BCE: Yeah. 2:03:43 SM: And those, and John Lewis and Bob Moses, and others remaining in that same mold. 2:03:50 BCE: Sure, there you go. 2:03:52 SM: Yeah. I have met a lot- I met John Lewis twice. 2:03:55 BCE: Oh, okay [inaudible]. 2:03:56 SM: I had some conversations with him. 2:03:57 BCE: But− 2:03:58 SM: And I just think he is an unbelievable human being. I wish he was in the cabinet. I wish that he would take the next step now and become President Obama's Chief of Staff. I think he needs to go the next step. I think he needs to be close; I think− 2:04:15 BCE: But− 2:04:15 SM: He− 2:04:17 BCE: [Inaudible] How old is he, Louis now? 2:04:19 SM: I- (19)70, maybe. 2:04:20 BCE: Yeah, no-no-no. 2:04:22 SM: But he [inaudible] he was you know he was [inaudible], when you look at the- these are some other questions here- when you look at the boomer generation, that encompasses 74 million people of all races, gender or sexual orientation, political philosophies. What are the characteristics you admire? And what are the characteristics you least admire about this generation? 2:04:40 BCE: About ourselves? 2:04:41 SM: Yeah. 2:04:44 BCE: Well− 2:04:45 SM: I looking, making sure this is, I am going to change this one. 2:04:49 BCE: Okay. 2:04:49 SM: Hold on one second, here we go. 2:04:52 BCE: I admire the fact that. 74 million of us, the worldwide? 2:04:58 SM: No 74 million boomers in the United States. 2:05:01 BCE: In the United States? 2:05:02 SM: Yeah. 2:05:03 BCE: Well, let us knock off 30. Let us knock off 30 million who are lost, okay, in jail, dead, are dying, are on drugs, and let us go with the other 40 million, as you say, who are now in trouble themselves. But I think that since the (19)50s, the boomers have done great things, technology wise, medicine wise. Also, in terms of humanity worldwide, a raising of consciousness of Mother Earth, I am really impressed with those of us who are conscious of world- what is it, warming? What do they call it, you know? 2:06:03 SM: Global warming? 2:06:04 BCE: Global warming, you know. And I think there is about 10, not maybe 15 to 20 million, who are intellectually right wing, and do not give a shit. But then we have this little minority of people who are still active, even though they can collect social security now, but are active and have passed on some traits to our children. And if not, children, by birth, children through education, community, similar interests. So, I am very proud of most of the baby boomers, because done a hell of a job, a hell of a job. And now the grandchildren for lack of a better word that are coming behind us. Not necessarily our children, but our grandchildren. Some of them are serious. 2:07:14 SM: Do you think though, that the-the children, and now the grandchildren for the first time, are they- even in the (19)60s and (19)70s, only about 5 percent may have been activists? 2:07:24 BCE: Yeah. 2:07:24 SM: [inaudible] And-and do you feel that the boomers had really been good parents and from all ethnic backgrounds in terms of sharing their experiences? Number one, what, and are their children listening to those experiences? And secondly, are they carrying any of the characteristics that the 5 percent had, which was to be socially conscious of the surroundings around you, and to care for those who are in need, and not just caring about yourself? 2:07:54 BCE: Well, the (19)70s were the, not (19)70s but the but the (19)80s were the me-my generation, if I remember correctly, that turn, not generation but even some of the baby boomers got caught up in me-mine, and I want money, you know. I think that we have done the best we could, whether it be to education, oral stories, I know quite a few grandchildren, who are more conscious than the generation, their parents, the boomers, children are okay. And if we have another 20 or 30 years, and we are not physically encumbered with illness etc. and our minds are still working, we will still be going, we will still be going, okay. And when your book comes out, they are going to be like, "Wait, who, follow up on that story. Who is that person?" 2:09:06 SM: See, what is happening. I got a publisher, and I have got somebody who is- my main thing now is I got so many transcripts to do. 2:09:13 BCE: You do. 2:09:13 SM: -and to get the final publisher, because I have been doing this all myself. But I already have a commitment from Jan Scruggs of Vietnam memorial, he said, "When you get this book done, in the American History Center, I am going to sell your book." 2:09:25 BCE: Yeah. 2:09:25 SM: American history, and that that, "You are kidding." "No-no-no," I− 2:09:28 BCE: No. 2:09:28 SM: And he is, he does not ever, he is a- he is a rec-, kind of a recluse was but he did say that would be something that I would sell because it is about America. It is about America during the Vietnam War. It is about America. So− 2:09:43 BCE: Well, we the history. 2:09:45 SM: Yeah. 2:09:45 BCE: And they are going to come. Because they come now. I mean, most of my interviews are by high school and college kids. Because they Google me or somebody, they did not want to do something on social program that of the (19)60s, then they find you. 2:10:03 SM: Oh, yeah. 2:10:03 BCE: So, I am feeling good about that. I am feeling good about that. So of course, I hate reality TV. 2:10:14 SM: So, do I. I do not know- 2:10:17 BCE: I mean, how bad is the news and Turner Classic Movies? What the hell is? [laughs] 2:10:24 SM: Yeah, that is the one- that is one of the worries I have about the young people because they got to go and watch reality TV. Well, what about their own lives? I mean, that is reality. 2:10:34 BCE: What, between Twitter and Facebook? I tell my grandsons, the one that is 13 last year. I said, "I tell you what, write me through the mail." Give him envelopes and stamps and my name. Just one page. Just write me anything, what you, read what you did in class. And I will give you $10 for every letter. I am going to be late because I is not paid no money out yet. 2:11:07 SM: Unbelievable, even for 10 bucks! 2:11:10 BCE: So, now but he does his paper delivery and all that other stuff. But in my mind, it is like free money. Okay, what are you going to do? 2:11:27 SM: What is interesting, Derek Bok, now I am getting off the subject here. He, in a recent speech he gave a former president of Harvard, said that college education is supposed to be about preparing young people to be critical thinkers in the world, and to be good writers. And yes, to prepare them for the world to be financially sound to have a, to create a career and all this other stuff. But he is- he thinks that we are lacking in those areas of critical thinking. And in the areas of, and our teachers have to be more creative with students and in getting this out of them. This is not- follows right after, what are your thoughts on the people who blame most of the problems on our society today? Here in 2012, and probably the last 15, 20 years- I am the boomer generation. And on the (19)60s and early (19)70s. Because of the following issues. This was a generation that did not respect law and order. It did not respect authority. It the divorce rate is outrageous. Their lack of church and synagogue attendance really went down into inner spirituality that they were into themselves, this welfare mentality about not being given, being given handouts as opposed to working, this the issue of drugs, of drug culture, instant satisfac- satisfaction and gratification, you know the drugs was about. And even the even the financial crisis we were in because the (19)60s was [inaudible] even Dr. King said, "I am not going to wait any longer." Thurgood Marshall, when he talked about the Civil Rights Act of (19)54 was a gradualist approach that finally took place. And then even then it took a long time after the bill was passed. For equality really take place. Dr. King said oh, I want to know well, that attitude of I want it now, many people believe is part of the reason why we have a financial crisis. They spend, spend, spend, and without worrying about how to pay for it. So, it is a combination of a lot of these particular things. Just your thoughts on those people that criticize the boomers in the (19)60s and early (19)70s for the problems we have in America today. 2:13:33 BCE: I do not think they can put a lot of blame on the boomers. And we, the boomers and I say that term "we." We were not in charge of the World Bank. We are not in charge of Bank of America. The whole concept of raising student loan educations. We did not have an army to go and get the drugs from Thailand and miscellaneous places. We, and we were not masters of deceit. If anything, we were too honest and open and taken advantage of by what Wall Street, the advertising community. But we did not sell out America. We did not we did not sell. I mean you know, take everything overseas. We did not do any of that. And if anything, we were fighting it. We were fighting it. So, during the so called (19)60s and (19)70s, if anything when I look back we were victims of a clever, clever government, institutions, some persons unknown that allowed us like Woody Allen's movie, The Dreamer, allowed us to think we were going to change something overnight. So no, do not go there. And as far as serving institutions even down to it when you mentioned the word religious, I find most boomers a spiritual, not organized religion. And Catholic Church has done its own self in and some of the Christians, my got. 2:16:10 SM: The kinds of sex, drugs, rock and roll was. They point to those three. That is the boomers and the sexual revolution the drugs and− 2:16:23 BCE: But we, I tell you one thing about the (19)60s and (19)70s, we did not have AIDS. Where did that come from, you know. I mean, when that you know, living in San Francisco and I lived in the Haight Ashbury okay, I did see some destructive behavior with LSD, mind alt-, but not with marijuana and coke, nobody could afford it. And nobody really wanted it because if you had marijuana and a glass of wine you was all happy. You know, you had a little music. What was it, sex, drugs and music. 2:17:07 SM: Rock and roll. 2:17:08 BCE: Rock and roll, that was Elvis, we did not have anything to do with that. 2:17:16 SM: The boomers often thought in at that particular time that they were the most unique generation in American history. And a lot of young people that time had an attitude that I am going to change the world for the better we are going to end racism sexism, homophobia, war, save the environment we are going to be different. And the critics will say, "Well geez how is the world different today we have had nothing but ongoing wars ever since and, and now boomers have been leaders for years, we have had the last few presidents have been boomers. And-and now we are not going to have any more boomer presidents. Now we are going into the generation Xers who are going to be president, “What sets them apart from other generations? And how would you compare them to the two generations that have followed the boomers, which is the generation Xers and the millennials that are today's students? 2:18:03 BCE: You know, I read an article in Time from one of these generation Xers as you put it. 2:18:14 SM: They were born any- from (19)65 to 1980. 2:18:18 BCE: Yeah. And I read an article by one of them, and he said that he was concerned about his parents not leaving anything good for him that he wanted to leave for his children. He did not blame it on all boomers. But like I said, maybe it was that 15 to 20 million who never [inaudible] any place but I ever, they never left. But they do control things. So, I am not really but I have a quiet faith that just because I do not see things do not mean they are not happening. I read enough on the internet and magazines to know that there are young people out here who are not into reality shows. Like my son said the other day, every woman is not a falsely, you know? So, every young man once you get past, 22. It is time to give up the silliness. It is time to think about where I am going with this, right. But I just have faith that it is enough people out here to make a difference. And continue. I mean, because if it is not, it was true that 2012 is the end of the damn world. Can I go out and spend all my money now? 2:20:22 SM: You raise a really good point because after King- well, [inaudible] university, the place I used to work at, had their Martin Luther King celebration [inaudible] and I regret that I do not go anymore because I am gone there. But-but I have always felt that even in the celebrations for Dr. King, they were oftentimes missing the point. We are the man, we-service day and all the projects that− 2:20:46 BCE: Yeah. 2:20:46 SM: That is a great thing that he would be loving. 2:20:48 BCE: Yeah. 2:20:48 SM: But the one thing about Dr. King is that he was about "We." Not me." "We." So first off, I do not think he tolerated any of this until he had died of natural causes. Number one, but he had an inherent belief that we all had it within us as individuals to make a difference in this world and did not have to be Dr. King or James Farmer or Malcolm X- 2:21:13 BCE: [agreement] 2:21:13 SM: -or even Bobby sealer. 2:21:15 BCE: Yeah. All- 2:21:16 SM: For you. It is about you. We all have it. And the fact is that when we talk about the unsung heroes, the people we will never know. I often wonder when-when you read when people even talk about the Black Panthers, and we talk about the leaders and the-the-the 30 or 40 names that come forward who were leaders all over the country? How about the Black Panthers who were never in leadership roles? Who may have been in Des Moines, Iowa. 2:21:48 BCE: Thank you. 2:21:50 SM: They contributed too, that is what Dr. King's talking about. I think any leader knows that. 2:21:54 BCE: Well, you know. 2:21:56 SM: They should. [inaudible] A few more here. When did the (19)60s begin in your opinion, and when did they end? 2:22:17 BCE: I do not know why, but (19)65 comes to my mind even though the march was (19)63. So, was the thing-? Kennedy was killed in (19)63, (19)64? 2:22:29 SM: (19)63. November 22, (19)63. 2:22:32 BCE: Okay, and-and then we went into (19)65. I am not sure why I feel that way. But everything exploded. Is that a good way to look at it? It was like, I have to, I am not sure but for some reason, the (19)60s for me began in (19)65. 2:22:59 SM: When did they end in your opinion? 2:23:07 BCE: Close to (19)80. Yeah, (19)75 to (19)80. 2:23:17 SM: Was that the disco era? 2:23:19 BCE: It was but also you look at the age group. People were turning over 35, some 40. And there was a backlash of Ronald Reagan after Reagan, Nixon, the war was over. It was a lot of confusion and also drugs- 2:23:50 SM: And that ended in (19)75. 2:23:51 BCE: Yeah, also drugs, they swept the country, you know. So you are looking at a lot of things that put a damper on fun. 2:24:04 SM: Do you feel I do not know if any in the Black Panther community? I think this came up. I know, Emory mentioned one person but how important were the Beats with respect to their influence on what transpired in the (19)60s and (19)70s? The Beats being Kerouacs the Ginsbergs, the Berlin Gettys the Waldmans the- 2:24:25 BCE: Oh, the Beat yeah, [inaudible] 2:24:26 SM: Gary Snyder, Leroy Jones, I mean all the beats. 2:24:30 BCE: All the Beats, oh you forgot Lenny. Well, Lenny was not a Beat, no he was not. Lenny was ju-, wait okay. But I think they set the stage for some cultural changes, social cultural changes because and they also yes, social cultural change. I think they set the stage for some progressive thought. No doubt. No-no. 2:25:07 SM: Did any of the Panthers read them? 2:25:12 BCE: Oh-oh, let me just think. I do not remember that being on the reading list. I do not remember that being on the student, Black Student Union list any of their works because, no, even− 2:25:31 SM: Not even Leroy Jones? 2:25:33 BCE: No, because he was Leroy Jones. Now on the East Coast, you had another kind of development because the East Coast and especially New York, see New York feeds out. But in California, Hollywood was not a place where people frequent. They, they just made movies, Walt Disney and crap. But no, Leroy Jones- and then if I am not mistaken, he was married to a white woman about then. 2:26:09 SM: Yeah, Hetty Jones. 2:26:10 BCE: Yeah. 2:26:11 SM: And Hetty was a Beat writer too, I have interviewed her. 2:26:14 BCE: But see, no− 2:26:20 SM: Who were, what were the folks that were on that reading list at San Francisco State what were the reading books that were on your list and maybe even the Black Panther list? 2:26:30 BCE: Wretched of the Earth, Black Skin White Masks, [inaudible]. Of course, Mao Zedong. Marx and Lenin's, Lenin's some of Lenin's books 2:26:49 SM: Saul Alinsky? 2:26:50 BCE: Oh-oh. 2:26:51 SM: Saul Alinsky with Rules for Radicals or? 2:26:55 BCE: It probably was to the-the white students who were also rebelling with the- so you did have a mixture of things. Oh, come on, you know that. Well Malcolm X always but uh, oh come on Barbara. 2:27:17 SM: There is Eldridge Cleaver's books, but they became− 2:27:21 BCE: Soul on Ice was the fast read and open for discussion and debate but I− 2:27:26 SM: What about James Baldwin, was he read? 2:27:28 BCE: Yes. Baldwin was read. 2:27:31 SM: Richard Wright? 2:27:32 BCE: Richard Wright, but come on, Don Ali out of Chicago. 2:27:41 SM: I am not sure. 2:27:42 BCE: Yeah, Don Ali, and then you had Sonya Sanchez, you had Don Ali- so it was like an [inaudible] 2:27:48 SM: Maya Angelou too? Was she just starting around then? 2:27:53 BCE: Yeah but Maya- 2:27:55 SM: Nikki Giovanni and her-? 2:27:57 BCE: Giovanni was yes. Maya Angelou so-so because she did come to the Panther school for kids and stuff. I know why the caged Bird Sings, I read that sitting on the toilet, but− 2:28:13 SM: I mean, how about Du Bois? Did you read Du Bois? 2:28:16 BCE: Well, you read Du Bois. [inaudible] you read Du Bois? 2:28:21 SM: And Malcolm? 2:28:22 BCE: Yeah, of course you had to read Malcolm. But everything was a fast learn now I think about it. And it was sort of narrow focus. 2:28:36 SM: And Harry Edward is writing them too. 2:28:38 BCE: No, but Harry [crosstalk] them later. 2:28:40 SM: Yeah. 2:28:40 BCE: Because he came after the Olympic thing with thing with [inaudible] and that. But then you had The Black Scholar, you see, by Nathan Hare. He had people writing articles in his book, so that that was very popular, very popular in the academic setting. 2:29:02 SM: Glazer was another one. Nathan Glazer, Nathan Glazer, then there was so many of them, um. 2:29:09 BCE: Do not worry 2:29:10 SM: I know there was, I do not know if anybody in your group read the Making of a Count- Theodore Roszak's and The Making of a Counterculture, which was a very popular book back then too. And The Greening of America, Charles Wright. 2:29:23 BCE: Now I remember The Greening of America, did not read it. I remember that. 2:29:28 SM: Those are kind of classics. What did the Vietnam War mean to African Americans in the (19)60s and (19)70s? Where did the Panthers stand on the war? And secondly, when Dr. King gave his speech against the war in 1967, at Riverside Church in New York, where did the community in Oakland stand with respect to his views on the war? 2:29:49 BCE: Well, we were against the war, period, and also because it was the oppression of another people, and when King came out against the war, well, that was fine with us. Oh, yeah. Because that, but-but-but you know what was funny about that, when he came out against the war? I remember sitting around with a group of Panthers and saying, they going to get him now. They going to get him, because you cannot do that. Okay. I remember that very clearly. 2:30:27 SM: I had a person I interviewed who was at Michigan State, who saw him speak there in an auditorium and she said, she was close to the stage. This was in the morning. Sure, be given that speech yet. But she said she close to the stage. And she was a sophomore, and she said, "I looked up at him," and the first thing she said "He is too good.” 2:30:52 BCE: [laughs] Oh, yeah-yeah! 2:30:53 SM: He knows the truth too much, he cannot survive. 2:30:57 BCE: And that was the same when-when that, you took that antiwar position. That was our first thought. You are not, you are not going to- they are going get you. 2:31:08 SM: Because even the people, the even people in the administration from LBJ on down, I mean. 2:31:15 BCE: Oh, they were [inaudible]? 2:31:15 SM: An enemy. 2:31:16 BCE: Yeah. So, what was that, was the answer to the question? 2:31:20 SM: Yeah, I think that was the answer to that question. We were up to here, it was on the Vietnam War. Was there a concern within the Black Panther community to about the fact that so many African Americans were in large numbers were going to that war in Vietnam, based on the fact that many of them were coming from the inner city, and they had they could not get out of the war? Because like, so many of the people in college, they had deferments, whereas people in the community, in the cities− 2:31:45 BCE: Well, this was not- one thing. I do remember that we were aware that a large number of African Americans, but because we were working with other groups, Hispanic, Asian, white people we were working with, we were aware that nobody should be going over there. But we were also aware of the fact that deferments were being given to blah-blah-blah Now and that was when we started sending a newspaper overseas, yeah, we started sending. 2:32:31 SM: So, the Black Panther Paper was being sent overseas? 2:32:36 BCE: Yeah. 2:32:36 SM: The were, what part, where? 2:32:38 BCE: We- well, let us start with Sweden. 2:32:42 SM: London? Because− 2:32:44 BCE: London, Germany, wherever there were- 2:32:49 SM: France, Paris? 2:32:50 BCE: I am not su- well, I am sure of this. There were a big man, the Big Man, he traveled to these places, because they were what was called Solidarity Committees. And whoever wanted to get paper, we sent it to them, and they would take it to different spots where the GIs were. So that helps. But that war was bad for everybody, just like this one. 2:33:23 SM: Yeah, the antiwar protests were not only happening in London. 2:33:26 BCE: Everywhere. 2:33:27 SM: They were happening in Paris. And I believe they were happening in Poland. There was some, there was a lot of stuff going on Eastern Europe, Western Europe, and I think even in Japan. There is a question here, can I use your bathroom, just real fast? 2:33:42 BCE: Real fast, [inaudible] 2:33:43 SM: [audio resumes] All right. So, the next question here is, this is a question as kind of a follow up to Vietnam. When John Kennedy gave that speech, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you-you can do for your country," what is an [inaudible] of speech, and the capital. A lot of people have this perception that the boomer generation is a generation of service. They think of a Peace Corps. They think of the volunteers and service to America, they think of giving back to others, you know, caring about others beyond yourself the whole concept of service. And in a book called The Wounded Generation, a book that came out in 1983, there is a panel discussion with Vietnam veterans that included Philip Caputo who wrote a Rumor of War. Bobby Muller, founder of Vietnam Veterans of America, Jack Wheeler the third who was actually murdered this past year in Delaware, who was one of the main founders or fundraisers for the Vietnam Memorial. He is a graduate of the class of (19)66 at West Point. And James Fallows, a writer for Atlantic Monthly and then this conversation, Jim Webb was also in that group who was who was now the United States Senator from Virginia, and he raised something that was very important in the discussion and that is that he felt that this discussion that the boomer generation is a- the generation of service, this- [audio cuts] These are good berries. The generation, what was I saying? The generation of service- he-he-he said that he felt that you cannot label this generation this way because many refused to go to the war. If you are a service-oriented generation then when your nation causes you to go to war, you go. So that that there is a real good discussion of this book on it and this transcribed and so I have been raising this question ever since I raised the book, not in the first half of people interviewed, but this question of, you know, what are your thoughts on that, that his commentary that we are the boomers are not [inaudible] the service oriented generation, yet many times are often labeled as a generation that was inspired by Kennedy's speech and all the Peace Corps and all the others. 2:36:06 BCE: But his comment is narrow. Because he acts like people who went to war, were the only people that count, or no, no, that is why I do not like all or most of- it does not apply. Because just because- you heard the call from Kennedy. Does not mean that others sitting here the same call, and wanted to do it differently. And many did. I mean, I, just-many did, no-no. I− 2:37:00 SM: You know that that could if you even go to the extreme here. 2:37:03 BCE: Yeah. 2:37:03 SM: That is even basically saying, then, if it is not, that the Black Panthers, even though some might consider them. 2:37:08 BCE: Yeah. 2:37:08 SM: A radical group, they do not understand it because they did not. But-but their service to the community of Oakland, which will spread to the service in New York, that was service, service to others. So, he is basic less another extension of the service mentality within the generation. 2:37:26 BCE: Well, you know, the military, any chance to work with, around the military in Germany. [laughs] And they scare me more than a policeman scare me. 2:37:48 SM: Then or now? 2:37:49 BCE: Both because there is- but I have worked. But it is a microcosm of society, I cannot get away from that. 2:38:07 SM: Right. 2:38:08 BCE: No matter, when you are in organizations, institutions, they just reflect some of the bigger society, you know, but unfortunately, even with the party and the military, the police, the internal thing does not always come from the top to the bottom. And sometimes, if top is corrupt, the bottom is going to be violent. So, when we talk about service, everybody got a definition, do not they? 2:38:53 SM: I agree. 2:38:53 BCE: So. 2:38:54 SM: Good point. Kind of a takeoff here, the question I have asked everyone from day one, when I interviewed former Senator McCarthy, when I started this way back in (19)96, when I was working full time. 2:39:09 BCE: Go ahead. 2:39:10 SM: The question is this, do you feel that the boomer generation, like the Civil War generation, will be going to its grave, not truly healed from the tremendous divisions that tore us apart during the (19)60s, (19)70s and early- maybe even in the (19)80s. And then, of course, it is the culture wars spreads it even more, for those who want to go back to the (19)50s, the way it was, as opposed to those who believe that we have made a lot of progress. So, the question is, is healing. Do you feel that a lot of the boomers Black, white, male, female, gay, straight are going to go there because they never healed from the divisions between black and white male and female, gay and straight those who were for the war and against the war? Just a question, do you think we are a nation that has is going to have a tremendous problem healing? 2:40:04 BCE: We will see. You are talking about a group; I can only think individually. And I believe that individually, there are many people who are at risk within their souls. That no, I did not accomplish everything I set out to, but some things were done, and that is all I can do. So, no, I do not want to honor- you know, it is like, the oldest profession in the world. It has been here before the Bible, do not worry about it. Just makes sure that everybody gets health checks. That is all, okay. So, it is like, I am not going to stop that. But look at this. My son married an Asian woman, and I fought the Japanese. I fought the Viet Cong. And now my grandchildren are Asian. You got to make peace. 2:41:14 SM: That is a really good point. Because I think the reason why this question came up originally, was because of the fact that I wondered how the antiwar people, when they visited the Vietnam Memorial for the first time, and they were bringing their children- 2:41:28 BCE: Right. 2:41:28 SM: -and they looked up to their mom and dad, who may have an antiwar and did not serve and got out any way they could, that that they felt guilty that they did not serve. So, I think that is where I was coming from. But it is also about the issue. We asked this, when I went to see took group of students to see Edmund Muskie, the former United− 2:41:46 BCE: Go ahead. 2:41:46 SM: -States Senator and we asked him that very same question, "Did you feel the divisions?" And he-he, the students came up with this question, because they had seen all the divisions of the riots of the cities, the 1968, when the murders of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy and the convention in Chicago and all that, I mean, those and they see and they said, "Man, that is, that is like a Civil War, how can you ever heal from this?" And they asked Senator Muskie who was the vice-presidential candidate at that convention, and he did not even respond in the way, he said, he said, "You know, we have not healed since the Civil War on the issue of race." And then he went and he said, and then he went on and said, "I just." He was in the hospital, he died six months later- and he said, "I was in the hospital, and I was watching Ken Burns Civil War series, and I said, Man.” He realizes 600,000 Americans died in that war, almost an entire generation taken away. And, and for what" and he talked about healing there, and he said, we have not healed in the area of race. And he said, so he did not even mention the (19)60s. And so that that was why I you know. 2:42:51 BCE: I just, but it is like I said, like I said, make sure everyone gets a health check. 2:43:00 SM: How are we doing time wise? Are we okay here? 2:43:01 BCE: Oh, I am fine, you the one got time− 2:43:04 SM: I am going to I got the [inaudible]. The-the question of trust, too. One of the characteristics of the boomer generation is that the younger generation, that trusts very much, they saw their leaders lie. Boomers grew up, I think it did not matter what background they were from. They saw presidents on TV lie, they saw the President and the statistics of the Vietnam War, which we all knew were being, you know, escalated, we saw, you know, what they experienced Watergate, they experienced the lies about Vietnam, you know. 2:43:39 BCE: Yeah. 2:43:40 SM: But see what happened, you know, during that whole period, is that the boomer generation, oftentimes, many of them that were involved in activism, did not trust anyone in a position of leadership, whether it be a president of the United States, president of a university, a head of a corporation, even the head of a church. I mean, they did not trust anybody in leadership roles. 2:43:59 BCE: Well, what was that [inaudible] nobody over 35. 2:44:03 SM: See that, that was from Jerry, Jerry Rubin. And then when they realized they were going to be 30, they upped it to 40. 2:44:12 BCE: But, uh− 2:44:17 SM: Is that a good not to trust people, or is it? 2:44:19 BCE: Well, you know, something? We grew up with that. We bathed in it, we slept with it, we know it. And what is very interesting to me is because of Steve Jobs, okay. The last two generations know it too. And they know it. It is they; I mean, it is unbelievable when you turn that computer on. Like, I usually turn it on in the morning, check all my emails, and I turn it [inaudible] and turn it on at night. You know, I delete a lot because you have to, but no, we really- see, and I am going to use that "we" interesting because for some Chinese Americans, Asians, Japanese Americans on the West Coast, during the (19)40s, the war. They closed their communities when they got out of them damn encampments, okay. Because they saw, what was happening, okay. Like I tell people, Japan on the [inaudible] look at them. Then, you look at Latinos. And even the Black farmers in the south, you know. So, the bombers got a lot of information from their parents. So, but we were more sophisticated in terms of certain things, and now the children, instant. And then they will run your heads out of town based on the fact- I mean, how do you get a satellite to show you my house, from space? You go on your computer, and you go. [tapping noises] 2:46:28 SM: Yeah, you can see your house. 2:46:29 BCE: Come on, you know, come on. So. 2:46:32 SM: Nothing is private anymore. 2:46:34 BCE: Nothing-nothing. 2:46:36 SM: You talk about trusting then, well God who can you trust now? 2:46:40 BCE: Why do you have to trust anybody? 2:46:42 SM: You know, it is interesting, it is the first thing you will learn in political science 101 in college is that the govern- if you, that not trusting your government is healthy. Because, it is healthy in the long run, because that means you are keeping them on their toes. 2:47:04 BCE: Get the movie, V for Vendetta. 2:47:07 SM: Oh, I seen it. Yeah. [crosstalk] 2:47:10 BCE: [in sarcastic tone] People should not be afraid of their government. Government should be afraid of their people. 2:47:18 SM: I noticed that mask was on the occupied people. 2:47:21 BCE: Yes, and when I was in Oakland, I went right down there and joined them. I had big fun, until I realized that somebody thought I was the homeless. [laughter] 2:47:30 SM: The movements, like I am done to my last three questions here. The movements, from the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, there were so many of them, of course, the ongoing Civil Rights movement, the anti-war movement, the American Indian movement, the women's movement, the gay and lesbian, bisexual, transgender movement and the Chicano movement. You get the environmental movement from Earth Day in 1970. And you had the Puerto Rican, and the Asian Americans were also involved in their own movement and so forth. They seem there, seemed to be a unity back then you could see the groups kind of supporting each other and there would be a protest and they would be, you can see banners from all of them. Now, they seem to be- there does not seem to be any unity anymore, that the women's movement has their banners, the, they are not kind of working together, they become more isolated. They are, they are out there, but they are not working together. And what does that say? Is it, they- in other words, the causes, people care about the causes and other movements but when you have a protest, it does not seem, they do not seem to be there? Am I wrong? They seem to be more divided and isolated than they are working together like they did in the late (19)60s and (19)70s. 2:48:40 BCE: Was not that a most unusual time? See, that was the most unusual time, and its so many factors that enter into why not? As I got older, everybody got jobs. Everybody got families. And I think we spoiled some of our children. [laughs] You know, I think some of the children got spoiled. And I do not mean like after the Korean War or World War Two, no-no-no, I mean, some of these little buggers got spoiled. And also- that is the students you hear next door, the "thump-thump." 2:49:44 SM: Oh, there is students living next door? 2:49:46 BCE: All around me. 2:49:47 SM: Oh, these are all student housing? 2:49:48 BCE: Well, this is my house but all up, all up and down the block. 2:49:53 SM: This is all student housing, this whole structure? 2:49:55 BCE: Except for one other [inaudible] 2:49:56 SM: And your sister lives upstairs? 2:50:00 BCE: Every day they want to buy it though. I am not selling. 2:50:02 SM: Oh, for student housing, right? [laughs] 2:50:05 BCE: Yeah, I am not going to sell it. 2:50:06 SM: Yeah. 2:50:06 BCE: But I do not know, the answer could be placed on one or two things. But sometimes I hear other boomers saying, we stopped working. You know, we stopped working as hard as we used to certain degrees of achievement, because from the (19)70s. The, for me, I looked at the number of Black politicians who were elected across this country. Okay, I mean, locally, city council. And not senators, but representatives, all kind of things, appointments to colleges. Doing (19)70s I think everybody wanted to get as much Black shit in the college as they could. And I saw that as a turnaround for a lot of the Black movement, okay. And then it was a question of acceptability. I mean, when I went to a ceremony for the unveiling of the Malcolm X stamp, you know, when I said, "Oh shit, he is, he is pasteurized. They pasteurized him." So− 2:51:48 SM: Oh, like, Dr. King's. 2:51:50 BCE: Well, no, see, not Dr. King, Dr. King is separate. Malcolm, and I was like "Woa" 2:52:00 SM: Where that statue, where was that put up? 2:52:02 BCE: No, a stamp. 2:52:03 SM: Oh, a stamp. 2:52:03 BCE: Yeah, it should be Malcolm X stamp. 2:52:05 SM: Oh, that is right. 2:52:05 BCE: The post office- and I was like "What the fuck." And his daughter and Dr. King's daughter were both there and nicey cutie booty. Look, who knows. Everybody has some examples that they could give, but I know some things that I saw and during the 80s, the explosion of "Me, my give me" for 10 years or more. And− 2:52:43 SM: Yeah, Christopher Lash when he wrote that book, The Culture of Narcissism which was the 1979 book, he was basically complaining it was boomers, it was not really Generation X because they were too young. He said it was that the-the generation that was supposed to be all into helping others is really only into helping themselves, and that was the culture of narcissism. 2:53:02 BCE: Well, I am just going to− 2:53:06 SM: Yeah. Let me stop this? 2:53:07 BCE: I am coming right back, I am going to see if these are hot enough to eat. 2:53:15 SM: With the culture of narcissism, so. 2:53:20 BCE: It is, it is− 2:53:26 SM: When you look at the- can I get this on here? When you look at the new Black Panther Party today, how do they how are they different from the-the old Black Panthers? I know the criticisms, read all the news about it and they are, some people say they are a racist organization whereas the original, the original group is not. How do their tactics and beliefs differ from the original Black Panthers and how our-man I tell you- how do people like the-the leadership from the past that are still alive, what do they think of these people? I mean, here is- because they are taking the logo and the name, and their-could-should not they have just picked another name? I am just wondering. 2:54:13 BCE: Well, they are. 2:54:15 SM: [inaudible] they have a right to it but. 2:54:17 BCE: It is, you know, they are nothing like us. Okay. They are nothing like us. They are very much so anti-white, anti-Jewish, they make no bones about it. They were paramilitary in their dress. Where even though we bought blue and black, basically we were some of the girls always trying to be cute. And they do a few things that we do, rather we did like maybe a clothing drive, or I have seen a few things. But they offend more than they bring it, okay. And their circle is very small. 2:55:15 SM: How many? How many people are in it? 2:55:16 BCE: Oh, no, I do not know what I am saying the circle of friends. 2:55:21 SM: Not like it was back- 2:55:22 BCE: Oh, no-no-no, nothing is like it was back then even the cultural communities of today are nothing like they were then. So, I think people are able to separate then and now. You know, people can, I have never worried too much about them. 2:55:52 SM: I do not know where they stand on the area of guns. And the do they carry guns or− 2:55:57 BCE: No, please. 2:56:01 SM: I saw the leader that was on TV, he looks well, I do not know a whole lot about him, but supposed to be fairly highly educated. I want to get back here for− 2:56:18 BCE: Re-read it. 2:56:19 SM: Yeah, the-the individuals here, we have gone over them. But in terms of leadership, and when we think of leaders, there are certain qualities people have. 2:56:30 BCE: Yeah. 2:56:30 SM: And I am back to these names again, from the original. Just a few things about the leadership style of Huey Newton. Just-just a couple things. 2:56:42 BCE: Okay. I will be right there with your answer. [audio cuts] Oh, what was it about Huey you wanted to know? 2:56:52 SM: Leadership, his leadership style? 2:56:55 BCE: Well, you must understand that he was not out of jail long enough for it to really develop. Okay, because the Party was formed in (19)66. The latter part of October. So, you figure in (19)67, he was doing a little a little organizing, but it was small groups. And the then the shootout [inaudible] jail. So, I mean, he left a lot on Bobby. And at that time, Bobby was very- 2:57:41 SM: He is the next person, what-what made him a leader? 2:57:44 Bobby? I think people liked him. And he moved very fast. He did not sit still you know that type of thing? He could give some hell of speeches. 2:58:02 SM: Oh, no. 2:58:02 BCE: He could talk about the devil. So- I saw him at Ohio State too. But also, Bobby had a love that came across for whatever he was talking about, how he felt. Yeah, that was the one thing about him is his love for people [inaudible]. And he was a gentle person in a way. But you know, sometimes when you are in a leadership position, so many pressures coming to bear. You tried to escape. 2:58:41 SM: How about Eldridge Cleaver? 2:58:44 BCE: Oh. 2:58:45 SM: What-what made him, what made him kind of special. 2:58:48 BCE: Outside of the fact that he was a tall man? He would be talking to you, because he had great green eyes. And he would always lean back and sort of go [gestures] like the hand was moving, talking. He appealed to the street man because of all his [inaudible] in terms of being in the jailhouse or jail, but he never changed. If he had a position with me, it was the same position he had with you. 2:59:38 SM: He was consistent. 2:59:39 BCE: Yeah, and yeah, that that was the one thing I noticed. But he was really funny, too. He was funny, because he would be sitting there talking and the next thing you know he was cussing [laughs]. 2:59:59 SM: What about Kathleen, what made her special? 3:00:06 BCE: Fiery-fierce. I mean, I used to- do not you repeat this, please- but one thing I noticed in the whole time I was in the struggle. The whiter your skin, the more fierce you were. [laughs] 3:00:25 SM: Really? 3:00:26 BCE: No. But I noticed that about a lot of people because it is a defense, you understand? But Kathleen was very intelligent, real sincere. I mean, I think she was more sincere than Eldridge ever was. So, I mean, she was really− 3:00:43 SM: She was a fiery speaker. 3:00:44 BCE: Yeah. 3:00:45 SM: I wish they had taped it. Because I do not know how many of our speakers, but there is a lot of Bobby's out there but I wish they had one of hers, when she was young. 3:00:57 BCE: She is still goo now. 3:00:59 SM: How about Emory? Emory Douglas, what made him special? 3:01:03 BCE: Sweetness. Kindness. Jovial. Emory's, everything came out in Emory's heart, Emory was just a nice man. And still is, you know, he is, he is a vegan. 3:01:26 SM: When I go out to Calif- I will not go this year, I think I will go next year, I am going to visit him. Because I like to, and I want to take a picture. He has already sent me a picture but, what made I guess, Stokely Carmichael special? 3:01:45 BCE: Well, I guess we have to look at what-what time period in his life are we talking about? 3:01:51 SM: I think probably the periods of the (19)60s and (19)70s. 3:01:53 BCE: Okay. 3:01:55 SM: When he was young. 3:01:56 BCE: Yeah-yeah well fierceness again and in your face, attitude towards the systems, you know, in your face attitude, but he knew, Stokely knew what he was talking about. No, I mean he would not say nothing that- see they were all college educated and most of them were college educated and very, oh just thinking about it now, you know, all those things that make leadership- what is the word when you are attracted to something- cares, charismatic? Yeah. So, sort of like preachers today. [laughs] 3:02:46 SM: How about H Rap Brown, what made him special? He is in jail now for the rest of his life but− 3:02:52 BCE: Yeah, sunglasses. 3:02:55 SM: That made him special? 3:02:56 BCE: Sunglasses. 3:03:01 SM: His brother just died, Heath Charles Brown, did you know him? 3:03:04 BCE: No. But I remember his name. I think Rap- 3:03:16 SM: He gave a great interview. 3:03:19 BCE: Okay, what was it that Rap used to say? Off Whitey, remember those two three phrases? 3:03:30 SM: Oh yeah. 3:03:30 BCE: And then Emmy drew that picture of him. And I was like, "What in the world." But seeing George Foreman was the man. 3:03:42 SM: The Boxer? 3:03:45 BCE: George Foreman. Come on. 3:03:49 SM: He was the, the one from the Civil Rights Movement? 3:03:52 BCE: Foreman. 3:03:54 SM: James Foreman. 3:03:54 BCE: James, did I call him George? 3:03:56 SM: He is from, he is in California, isn't he? 3:03:58 BCE: No, he is dead, isn't he? 3:04:00 SM: I thought he was still alive. 3:04:01 BCE: No, why do I think he is dead but my brain is not working today. 3:04:05 SM: But he was with Snick too, did not he? 3:04:07 BCE: Yeah, but the Master, you ever get a chance to read his book? 3:04:13 SM: I know James Babble was a fiery guy too. 3:04:15 BCE: Crazy motherfucker. [laughs] 3:04:18 SM: He was from Philadelphia here for a long time, he had an [inaudible] 3:04:21 BCE: [agreement] 3:04:24 SM: What made, I guess the other one who I also have here, what made the gentleman from Fred Hampton special? 3:04:36 BCE: The usual. Charismatic, intelligent, always knew what he was talking about. No doubt, no doubt. Yeah, that boy was he was definitely a threat to the system. 3:04:53 SM: Because Bobby Rush ended up becoming a congressman. Did you know, Bobby? 3:04:56 BCE: Yeah, yeah, I know Bobby. 3:04:58 SM: How does a guy become a Black Panther, and then become part of the establishment? 3:05:02 BCE: Well, no, no, he is still very, Bobby is, well, he has just finished. He was here in October, I saw him in October, recovering from cancer. 3:05:14 SM: Oh, I did not know that. 3:05:16 BCE: Recovering. He is, he is doing pretty good. Doing pretty good. Cause he gave a real nice little talk at this dinner party I went to. 3:05:28 SM: Did he come here for treatment or− 3:05:30 BCE: I do not know, did this little group of Panthers that had something, I went to the dinner party. 3:05:39 SM: And how about the, the other people that were the that were on the shirt? 3:05:44 BCE: The Forte? 3:05:44 SM: The Forte brothers [inaudible] 3:05:48 BCE: They could survive in any culture because they were like to Tupac, Biggie Smalls straight out of Brooklyn or Oakland hills. I mean, Oakland is a very− 3:06:01 SM: You want to survive and− 3:06:02 BCE: Oh yeah. And so Forte Brothers had that. 3:06:04 SM: And how bout Bobby Hutton? 3:06:07 BCE: So young, so young. 3:06:09 SM: And was killed, he was killed by a police or? 3:06:12 BCE: Well. 3:06:16 SM: Hold on, let me see here. This is A yeah, and now we go to B, very good. This one is going to end probably. 3:06:25 BCE: Well Martin Luther King was killed April the fourth. And a little Bobby was killed April the sixth. 3:06:33 SM: The same year, (19)68? 3:06:34 BCE: Yeah, was in the same day. I mean, two days. 3:06:37 SM: Yeah. 3:06:41 BCE: That was I think, you remember when Martin Luther King was killed how to cities erupted and same in Oakland and Eldridge and, was it [inaudible] 3:06:56 SM: What were the circumstances of Bobby's death, was he− 3:06:59 BCE: Well, the cops surrounded the house and they said, "Come out." Eldridge took his clothes off. The other boy took his clothes off. Bobby did not take his clothes off. 3:07:12 SM: He just came out with his clothes on, and they shot him? 3:07:15 BCE: Well, I mean, you know? He told me to hold my hands up and [inaudible] drop one. I mean, there was so many bullets [inaudible] that− 3:07:28 SM: Some of the other people here, just your overall thoughts on these people. What were your thoughts on George Jackson? Because we all know he was prison there and died? Who was he and why is he important? 3:07:47 BCE: You have to go to− 3:07:49 SM: And Angela Davis− 3:07:50 BCE: Wait, wait, wait stop, stop. Okay, I just realized. George was in prison. So [inaudible] and there was in the prisons in California, there were Panther chapters. [phone rings] Or affiliate. 3:08:08 SM: Yep. 3:08:10 BCE: I think, so. I know he was one of these in one of them some, some branch or chapter because he was the Field Marshal of some, something that- I do not remember the title. But he had the ability to write. And he had been in jail long enough. And he had read most of the books on the reading list. So, he, he had the ability. And he was a person of note, not because of Angela Davis but because of himself. But when his brother Jonathan, that was 1970, August of 1970 went up in a courtroom shooting and killing and popping and oh god. That brought attention to him, and it was also the time that they were looking for her. 3:09:15 SM: Right. 3:09:16 BCE: But before that, I did not know him because I was already overseas. And I cannot remember if he had written something in the paper. 3:09:32 SM: I remember reading someplace and they were just waiting to get him or something like that. And then there is one other person was killed, or two of them I think and they were coming out together and he was one of them. 3:09:41 BCE: Well, the boy was, I think he died. I do not remember how he died. I do not think anybody was with him. They blamed it on his lawyer bringing a gun, which makes no sense. 3:09:53 SM: Yeah, and Angela was not a Black Panther, but she was certainly 3:09:58 BCE: She was a great supporter in the beginning. 3:10:00 SM: Why should people know about Angela Davis? What was about her that made her special? 3:10:05 BCE: Well, for me it would be the story of Georgia Jackson and her part in that. And that would always lead them back to her younger life before she became a seen that little bit of time in jail. And I mean Russia, every communist in the world wanted this girl out, okay. I mean, it was unbelievable. And I think everybody has a history. But some people have pertinent time zone history. And Angela is definitely one of them. But I like her because of her position on the indu-, military-military industrial complex. And when she talks about history, she is very clear about things. And I think she is safe now. Okay. Very safe. Not like Kathleen. I think that time in jail, and I have never been to jail, so I cannot testify. But some people come out, they straighten up and fly right. And they get a job at the University of California San Bernardino professor of [laughs] Ph. D. of that, this bullshit. 3:12:03 SM: I know Angela is at Santa Cruz, I think was not she- she taught Santa Cruz? 3:12:09 BCE: She is all over the place talking, whatever. 3:12:12 SM: She retired though; I think. 3:12:13 BCE: uh-uh [disagreement] No, she is still working. 3:12:14 SM: No? What did you think of the Tommy Smith and John Carlos and their stand there with the- you know we had, we had Tommy on our campus, but he made it a point, he said, "Do not ever put me with a Black Panthers. I am not a Black Panther. But I believe in Black power." He was emphatic about that. 3:12:30 BCE: Yeah, well I do not blame him, shit. [laughs] 3:12:33 SM: And of course, John Carlos has a book out now, finally. 3:12:36 BCE: Oh, yeah. 3:12:37 SM: They, just your thoughts on their courage in (19)68? I mean, they got, they got hell. 3:12:44 BCE: See, I watched one of the-the one they put a book out in last seven months ago? 3:12:50 SM: That is John. 3:12:51 BCE: And like he said, he said, "We were upset about some things that were happening to them. There. And in Mexico. And when we came out, we put our fists up thinking like, we want to bring some attention to the bullshit, but not to the shit-shit" okay. So, you, you became a symbol, a whatever they became that everybody was, like all Black athletes around the world. And not just Black, see, this is why it is important. 3:13:36 SM: Yeah. 3:13:36 BCE: Because the man who helped him with the book is, was a young white man who was there at the time. And he watched them go through so much shit. And he is Jewish, this, see I found all this interesting. He said that "I was there. I saw how they were treated; I saw how the Jews were treated, some of the Jewish athletes." He said, "You cannot tell-" And the head of the Olympics− 3:14:11 SM: Yeah, I know. 3:14:12 BCE: -was a German, this German [inaudible] or something, right? He said, "Man, look here. You would not believe the stuff that happened to them, me and everybody," but like, a lot of the things, accidentally you get put in history. Because when he was talking, his wife committed suicide. No, you know, he said it was not- I mean, the hardships some people go through, because I volunteered for struggle. He just happened to. [laughs] 3:14:50 SM: Yeah, and what is interesting is a lot of other athletes at that Olympics were doing it too and I remember Lee Evans there was another athlete, the long-distance runner and-and then a lot of female athletes were doing the same thing. But those, but that particular season, George Foreman the boxer refused to do it remember? 3:15:06 BCE: Oh, well. 3:15:06 SM: Yeah, he refused to do it. 3:15:08 BCE: George Foremen, and that is why I [inaudible] kick his ass. [laughs] 3:15:12 SM: Yeah. You know, when you think of the two athletes that stand out betw- is you think of two athletes, when you think of Black power, you think of Muhammad Ali, and you think of Kareem Abdul Jabbar who changed his name. 3:15:24 BCE: And what is his face? Joe Frazier, see− 3:15:28 SM: Well, there is a big difference between Mohammed Ali and Joe Frazier though in terms of− 3:15:31 BCE: Yeah. [inaudible] eat a cookie. 3:15:32 SM: And then Kareem Abdul Jabbar I remember coming here into Philadelphia. 3:15:37 BCE: Oh yeah. 3:15:37 SM: Changed his name and he had the big, of course he is [inaudible] well, jeez thanks. I did not expect to be eating, I really want to thank you for this, by [inaudible] 3:15:47 BCE: Well, I saw you with the water bottle, so I said well, "he is not going to be here long, but if he did, I am going to throw them little cakes in there." [sings, laughs] 3:15:56 SM: But, uh. 3:15:57 BCE: Go ahead. 3:15:58 SM: They kind of stood out, Muhammad Ali. 3:16:01 BCE: Yeah. 3:16:02 SM: I know that [inaudible] taking, the even when George Frazier passed away people were really empathetic more toward George Frazier, and who he was as a person and, and some of the things that Muhammad Ali did to him. But what in the community in the Black Panther community, what did they think of the, of Muhammad Ali and like Kareem Abdul Jabbar? Because they stood out as athletes who really were symbolic of Black Power. 3:16:34 BCE: [Inaudible] Of course, they were heroes. But I do not think we made a real big deal of them, you know, in terms of newspaper, because they had enough publicity. And the other thing is, Muhammad Ali was a Muslim under the Nation of Islam. And we had issues because Malcolm was gone. Okay. 3:17:09 SM: Yeah. 3:17:09 BCE: So, it was like, okay, acknowledge, leave it alone. 3:17:13 SM: The same thing with Kareem. He was because he, he had links to with the [inaudible] 3:17:19 BCE: No, no, Kareem was more Eastern. But Black Muslims came after him, [inaudible]. 3:17:31 SM: Harry Edwards was an important person too, because he was on Berkeley campus in the early (19)70s. And of course, he was involved in not only the, what happened in the 1968 Olympics, because he was the advisor there, but at Cornell University in 1969, when the students took over the union with guns. Okay. Was there any inspiration to the Black Panthers from that incident at Cornell? Was there any kind of linking- I know (19)66 is when the Panthers started? 3:17:57 BCE: Well. 3:17:58 SM: But that scene in (19)69, they were not Panthers, they were− 3:18:01 SM & BCE: Students. 3:18:02 BCE: But see, the student movement was still exploding everywhere. Remember, back then, the news was coming from the west to the east, instead of vice versa. And now, there was a lot of support for that. The newspapers gave support. You see, articles were written. But there was an article in The New Yorker. It was about two years ago; I think I got rid of it. And it was the- some anniversary of the Cornell blah-blah-blah 09. And I forget who wrote it, whether it was a student or a faculty member, but I found it interesting, because they said the Black Panthers came up to support the students. 3:19:02 SM: That is right, they did. 3:19:03 BCE: Yeah. And I was like, oh, I guess I do not even know [crosstalk] 3:19:06 SM: Yeah, I lived in that area, I was in Binghamton and-and I read about it, and you have no idea. 3:19:12 BCE: Mm hmm. Yep. 3:19:13 SM: The fear that-that area of New York State there is a lot of wackos. And so, there was a fear that these wackos these hunters were coming, to come out of nowhere and murder the students. And some of the professors that were there were, obviously they were upset with the administration for not coming down harder on them at the time, and in fact, several professors knew, the conservative professors knew that they were going to leave the university at that time, and one of them was Thomas Sol. African American, who's now has written a lot of books, was at Stanford. He was one of the professors who left, I do not know if that was exact incident, but he left and there were a couple other professors who left. I think Alan Bloom might have been one, who took his, when he got in a car took his family, I have done so much reading, and he had to leave Cornell he was really upset with the administration for not coming down harder on this. [Inaudible] that one of those students who led that protest is on the board of trustees right now, who has been very successful person in life. And− 3:20:19 BCE: What is his name? 3:20:19 SM: I cannot remember. 3:20:20 BCE: Did he write a book too? [laughs] 3:20:21 SM: No-no book. He is on a board of trustees, very successful. 3:20:24 BCE: Wait a minute, [inaudible] 3:20:25 SM: I do not know what posi- I just remember knowing that that person had gotten into some sort of position of responsibility with the university. I am not sure if I am correct. I am not sure if it was a trustee position, but in some capacity [crosstalk] 3:20:42 BCE: No, you got you got Cornell West, you got. The other guy, what is the other guy? The one went to the White House to have beer with the− 3:20:50 SM: Oh, Gates, Henry Louis Gates. 3:20:54 BCE: And I look at these leaders and whatever they are, and I go "Mhm," I am take it with a grain of salt. 3:21:03 SM: Well Cornell West and Gates and Dyson, they are um− 3:21:10 BCE: Oh, let us continue. Let us go on, I do not want to− [laughs] 3:21:12 SM: See, the last thing in this particular area is just what did the Black Panthers yourself and Bobby and Healy and not necessarily Stokely because we know what he felt. We have talked about it. What did they feel, what were their thoughts on Martin Luther King and Roy Wilkins and, and James Farmer and Whitney Young, because those are the four, big four? Remember the big four? There they are. 3:21:39 BCE: Yeah. 3:21:40 SM: And I have read, and I have read so much about them since, of course Philip Randolph was the was the old timer, who was still there, he had Byard Rustin helping. So, but that particular group, Jesse Jackson was an up and comer. But− 3:21:54 BCE: Yeah. 3:21:56 SM: And Whitney and Whitney Young, but the key thing is the big four were King, Wilkins, Young and Farmer. 3:22:05 BCE: Yeah. 3:22:05 SM: They had been the leadership and and-and I know other people followed in their footsteps. But yeah, but just what did they think of them? 3:22:12 BCE: Well, it is sort of like where you started with Stokely, "Your time is coming on." But we are moving on. So, you keep doing what you are doing, do what you want to do. But we are going to go and we are going to move on. I do not think it was a, well you remember, you have not even brought this up. But the-the antagonism between the Panthers and other organizations, Maulana Karenga. See, that was an outright disrespect that two organizations had for each other. 3:22:53 SM: I do not know too much about− 3:22:54 BCE: Do not worry, do not worry. But it was a question of cultural nationalism, which means from changing your name to the garb, that clothing that you wear and certain African centered activities. Well, the Panthers were not really a cultural organization, they were more intellect, action. So, there was some friction and people got killed, okay. But if you asked about the us organization, they were in Los Angeles. I would say, "Oh them all bald headed no good and motherbaba duba da." But if you asked about Martin Luther King, and big four as you said, well, they have had their day and I am going to do this that and the other. It was not, put put-put-put down. Now occasionally. We did call you Uncle Tom. 3:22:54 SM: Yeah. 3:24:03 BCE: We put you in the newspaper as a bootlicker, okay. No doubt, no doubt. But I always thought of that period of time as the breaking away, you know, the breaking because you were asked by the establishment press and newspapers, "Well, what do you think of the Black Panthers, oh them ruffians, those-" so you are looking at this and you are saying, "Wait a minute, you do not even know who I am." You know, you know things that, so if-if you diss me I am going to diss you back because you were there to soothe the fears of white America and some Black Americans, but you did not represent everybody. So, there you go. 3:25:15 SM: Music, I made a reference to it earlier, was the African American community-community linked to or inspired by the music of the (19)60s and (19)70s? Or mostly the Motown sound? Who were the entertainers, the artists, the musicians that most inspired the Panthers and the African American community as a whole? And secondly, because we are talking about the bay area here, and you know, when he talked about the Bay Area, you are talking about the Summer of Love and (19)67, which was a big thing when people came from all over the country to San Francisco. And that by (19)68, we knew the drugs took over the town, everybody was leaving. And then of course, 1969, Woodstock was a cultural event. 3:25:59 BCE: New York! 3:26:01 SM: So, you got the Summer of Love and (19)67 and the Woodstock and (19)69. How important were the Summer of Love and Woodstock? Do you see an identity in the African American community, particularly the Black Panther community, to those two particular events? Because there is so- 3:26:16 BCE: We sold more newspapers than ever. Woodstock literally was unbelievable. Unbelievable. Okay. But it was mind boggling at the same time, because of the amount of marijuana you [inaudible] oh shit gas masks [laughs]. But it was also, we sold a lot of papers. So, I mean, 1000s, you know, whatever was that. 3:26:47 SM: What was the- what was the publication every week [crosstalk]? 100,000 or? 3:26:52 BCE: Oh, I cannot be sure it depends on the year, the month. 3:26:56 SM: Yeah. 3:26:57 BCE: But the summer of love. Okay, that was interesting, because it was not, it was not just about alliances, because we went there. Because you said "Hey, I need a little support why do not you sell some papers people." But it was like, what the hell is going on here? Because you had all these for lack- basically, these white young kids. Flower− 3:27:41 SM: Yeah, we are at [inaudible] African American kids. 3:27:44 BCE: [Inaudible] Do not make me feel guilty− 3:27:45 SM: The key thing, it is important because when I talk about I want to make sure that when I talk about the boomer generation, someone told me once when they think of the boomer generation, they think of white kids, ah no-no-no-no-no. Boomer generation is 75 million people from all ethnic backgrounds, I want to make sure, what were, was there a connection between the Summer of Love and the African American community besides just selling newspapers? And being a part of it? 3:28:10 BCE: I know that I was there this last summer. No, it was so new. It was so new. You, I think that- so you have to look at how Black people do drugs back then. They smoked marijuana in the house, in the house. If they shot up, they shot up in the house or in certain little spots. But most African Americans back then were drinkers. Social beings, a beer with a little wine, whiskey. Okay. Now Woodstock, the summer of love both of them in the Haight Ashbury itself. Okay, because I was living there. I moved in at night. I woke up the next morning, I said, "where the fuck is [inaudible]". I had no idea that I had moved at Haight and Trager, the jiggers were- yeah, and the jiggers were my neighbors right. I had no idea where I had moved, because it was [inaudible]. It was like a mind-blowing experience. So, if we were strange to our peers and parents as Panthers and radical Black Student Union children, because a lot of them students got in trouble with the parents, right? The summer of love and Woodstock and Haight-Ashbury, it was like, no clue. You were in the state of shock. Now granted, there were a few Black people in the movement there. Love Power, Haight-Ashbury. The whole hippie movement. But the thing about it was, were they in it for the drugs? Were they in it for free love? Were they already married to a person of another racial group? You never saw a lot of Black people, okay in any of those things. But because I was always like this. But after living in the Haight, I was there about a month. And like I said, the jiggers were upstairs, they were the people that− 3:30:11 SM: Hippies. That is Peter Coyote, did you know Peter? 3:30:55 BCE: I do not know, I got to see. 3:30:57 SM: [inaudible] 3:30:58 BCE: But no, but here, what was interesting. I never felt so safe in my life. Walk down the Haight Ashbury. I would walk six, seven blocks down the Fillmore Divisadero, come home late at night walk up the street, because people were always on the streets. But then it was very beautiful in the beginning, but then LSD really turned it around. 3:31:25 SM: Yeah, (19)68 was a different year they called it the summer of- I forget, there is another term they used for it. But it is, it is not a good term. 3:31:31 BCE: No. 3:31:31 SM: People were getting out of there like crazy. 3:31:33 BCE: And− 3:31:35 SM: Yeah, so when you talk about the music overall, then, you know, I guess what I am getting at here is. 3:31:44 BCE: Oh, music. 3:31:46 SM: So, you know, because the culture we are talking about Woodstock, of course, Jimi Hendrix [inaudible] Woodstock. [crosstalk] Carlos Santana, there was [inaudible] there, but what, the music and I look at the music, too. We know music was part of the generation and of the course, white kids loved Motown. And they love rock music. The question is, did African Americans during that timeframe also like the Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Doors, the folk musicians, the rock bands, you know, because, because it is not just, you know, that there is the Chamber's brothers. There is the Isley Brothers, there is the Motown groups. There is Jimi Hendrix. There is Bob Marley. There is Richie Havens. 3:32:31 BCE: No Bob Marley. Too early. 3:32:33 SM: Yeah, you are right on that. But there were, of course, all the Motown groups and the jazz, but just-just thinking about this. 3:32:43 BCE: What− 3:32:44 SM: Did the community like all this music? 3:32:47 BCE: Well, we all liked Janis Joplin. I was not that hip to what is his face, Jimi? Because I went to the Haight theater to see Janis. I cannot remember whether I saw Jimi Hendrix there, or what it was but Janis because she was so earthy, little crazy, I guess, but earthy. And she came across sort of like Tina Marie in later years. But it depends on your cultural, spiritual, educational upbringing, what you liked, but everybody liked Motown because they were safe. And then you got the Philly sound. But then they started recording music to meet the needs of the struggle. You know, Marvin K, what is going on? These boys here in Philly, Gamble and Huff produced a lot of good music. The one I really liked was that wild man, James Brown. 3:34:07 SM: Oh, yeah. 3:34:08 BCE: I am black and I am Brown. 3:34:09 SM: Yes. 3:34:11 BCE: So, you had, between (19)65 and (19)68, everything. It was like trying to keep up with it. Trying to keep up with it. I think. 3:34:28 SM: What is amazing is when I think about it, the music, no matter what ethnic background you were from, there seemed to be something for everyone with a message− 3:34:39 BCE: But it was. 3:34:40 SM: You know, the-the white the white bands had messages. You know, Country Joe and the Fish talked about Vietnam. It is amazing. 3:34:49 BCE: No what was that, Bob Dylan. 3:34:55 SM: Yes. 3:34:56 BCE: Bob Dylan, strange creature that he is. I do not remember the song. And Joan Baez. See, we could play some of their songs, not just Black music. 3:35:11 SM: Peter Paul and Mary. 3:35:12 BCE: You could play the songs because there was that cross connection of, hey, do you know the truth about this? And see, it was a form of intelligence giving, I think now, and that is some stuff I picked up in rap. I mean, I had to listen to rap because my son and his friends rolled around. 3:35:37 SM: And you can get messages in rap. 3:35:39 BCE: And I was like, and then some of the stories were too true, horrifying stories, but no, it was a lot of things cross cultural back then. 3:35:53 SM: Even the (19)70s in John Lennon's music as a- before he was murdered in 1980. Everybody was listening, Give Peace a Chance. I mean, Bruce Springsteen's music, well, he has got a lot of messages in his music. I, it is like everything you listen to. Pete Seeger crosses three different generations 3:36:11 BCE: Yeah. 3:36:11 SM: With his music and Arlo Guthrie and Judy Collins and Joni Mitchell. They are all I mean, there is all messages I-I have listened to everything even I could not believe this the other day the Beach Boys have an album that I did not even realize the Beach Boys. Yeah, it is called Demonstration. I said I got to go find this. And because I never knew there is a song if you go into the web, hit the Beach Boys go all through their material and then come to this one song talks about Kent State, Jackson State, the Beach Boys! Because is there you know, everybody seemed to be making sure that there was messages that were. 3:36:49 BCE: You know, it is funny you should mention the Beach Boys because− 3:36:56 SM: This is going to this one is going to run out, this is ok. 3:36:59 BCE: There was something on TV about a month or so ago, one of them had− 3:37:03 SM: Will we tape this or just? 3:37:05 BCE: No, this is just conversation. 3:37:06 SM: I think we have gone over the fact that you are a little bit more about your life after the Panthers. They broke up in the (19)80s overall. Two questions right here. 3:37:08 BCE: Go ahead, go ahead. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Description 2 Microcassettes Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Barbara Cox Easley Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Easley, Barbara Cox ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights workers; Black Panther Party; Easley, Barbara Cox--Interviews Description An account of the resource Barbara Cox Easley is a civil rights activist most known for her involvement with the Black Panther Party while attending San Francisco State University. She worked in the Oakland, C.A., Philadelphia, P.A., New York, N.Y., and international chapters for the Party. She also participated in several survival programs hosted by the Party. Easley continues her dedication to social work and political activism today. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-01-26 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.186a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.186b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 217:23 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/0b810f92fccf6fe3c29a9104d8c32d27.jpeg 86dde76e726d5de064eaca09ef5ea7f2 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f4101e67cf29a2c46204a4eff75b3926.mp3 6793702ce6c47f383283275059e425e4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2012-01-05 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Emory Douglas Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Emory Douglas worked as a Minister of Culture for the Black Panther Party. He was also the art director, designer, and main illustrator for The Black Panther magazine. His illustrations for the Party's newspaper reflect American history and society in the 1960s and 1970s.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,4884200],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Emory Douglas worked as a Minister of Culture for the Black Panther Party. He was also the art director, designer, and main illustrator for <em>The Black Panther</em> magazine. His illustrations for the Party's newspaper reflect American history and society in the 1960s and 1970s.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Black Rights Movement; Nineteen Sixties; Black Panther Party; Stokely Carmichael; Weathermen; SNCC; Police brutality; Decade stereotypes.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Black Rights Movement; Nineteen Sixties; Black Panther Party; Stokely Carmichael; Weathermen; SNCC; Police brutality; Decade stereotypes.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 134:55 Subject LCSH Black Panther Party; Douglas, Emory--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Emory Douglas Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Douglas, Emory ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Black Panther Party; Douglas, Emory--Interviews Description An account of the resource Emory Douglas worked as a Minister of Culture for the Black Panther Party. He was also the art director, designer, and main illustrator for <em>The Black Panther</em> magazine. His illustrations for the Party's newspaper reflect American history and society in the 1960s and 1970s. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-01-05 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.185a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.185b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 134:55 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/f904cd28f6fa6c08c389e0540fe5a0c3.jpg ca65acf60dc747a7d737dcdb774a156d https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/a93884fd63c45cab873e3c6e6d3be1a5.mp3 ef38146f33475123de975a394f10f5b2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-03-16 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Michael Donnelly Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Michael Donnelly is an environmental activist, author, and one of the founders of Friends of Opal Creek. Donnelly has been writing on environmental issues and stories focused on Native American and indigenous peoples in the northwest. He is a member of the American Indian Movement. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Vietnam War; Kent State shootings; Cultural changes; Shift away from religion; Michigan anti-war march, Environmental Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; John Trudell; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Peace Corps.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Dr. Martin Luther King Jr; Vietnam War; Kent State shootings; Cultural changes; Shift away from religion; Michigan anti-war march, Environmental Movement; Native American/ American Indian Movement; John Trudell; Yippies; Students for a Democratic Society; Weathermen; Peace Corps.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 136:34 Subject LCSH Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Indigenous peoples--United States; Donnelly, Michael--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Michael Donnelly Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 16 March 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Testing one, two. Could you give me some background in terms of where you were born, your early influences in terms of the people who had the greatest impact on you, and any role models or heroes that inspired you when you were young? Because I know you are a very important activist on the environment. MD (00:00:27): Okay. I was born in Flint, Michigan, and I grew up in Flint, Michigan. And I guess the biggest important influence on me is the Catholic Church. From an Irish Catholic family, and went to Catholic schools through 12th grade, and I was in a Catholic seminary in Detroit, Michigan for 9th and 10th grade or seminary. And a lot of my early influences were people in the church. And I have the whole clan structure of our family. I had a lot of great influences, my grandparents and aunts and uncles and so on. And my dad was a huge influence on me. And he was a junior college English instructor and baseball coach who got his doctorate degree and eventually became president of the college and was pioneer of community colleges in the country. And he was, I guess you could call him a Roosevelt liberal type. SM (00:01:41): How did you end up going from Michigan to Oregon? MD (00:01:49): At Michigan State University I met my wife in grad school there. And she had gone to undergraduate school at Lewis and Clarke College in Portland. Before that though, when I was a junior in college in 1970, my dad was hired to set up the community college system for the whole state in Nevada. And so that was the first time. Yeah, he set up five colleges in seven years there. Now they have more students than the whole rest of the college system in the whole state. And so, the first time I ever saw the West was when I caught a plane, which was rare back in (19)70. I never caught any planes. But at Christmas break in a blizzard in Canton, Michigan... And then went off in Reno. The first time I had seen the West, and I loved it. So then when I met Nina, my wife, was [inaudible] college, she-she had grown up in Marin County, California, and we had come to Oregon. My God, Oregon. SM (00:02:53): Well, obviously this is the (19)60s and the (19)70s. MD (00:02:58): Yeah. SM (00:02:58): We are talking about here? And again, I got really a lot of specific questions, but there is also some broad ones too, and this is one of the broad ones. When you think of that time when you were in college, those experiences, I think you graduated from a community college and then you went off to Michigan State and then you were off to Oregon. Do you remember about those times? Was there something in those times that inspired you to become an activist or you just started seeing things with a bigger lens? MD (00:03:31): When I was young, I was growing up in inner city Flint, as it shifted from being white neighborhood to [inaudible], and that had a huge impact on me. And I got involved early on with the Urban Coalition, which was an attempt to bridge the racial divide in the area. I was one of the youngest people involved in it. When I was in the seminary, Dr. Martin Luther King came to Detroit and gave a speech, fabulous speech. SM (00:04:02): And you saw it? MD (00:04:03): Yeah, I saw it. SM (00:04:03): Oh, wow. You are live. Wow. MD (00:04:04): Yeah, so all of us seminarians, we made signs and we rolled out and joined all the neighbors and everybody, and we all walked downtown to see the speech. And that was pretty moving to me. I saw my first [inaudible]. SM (00:04:15): What year was that? MD (00:04:16): It was in (19)63. SM (00:04:17): Okay. MD (00:04:18): Three. Oh, no, it must have been (19)64. Because LBJ was president and Nicholas Katzenbach was the attorney general then. SM (00:04:29): Yes. MD (00:04:30): They were protesting though. And so that had a big impact on me. I grew up, part of my Catholic upbringing is being pushed into athletics. So athletics was really... For anything about athletics, the best thing about it was it broke down a lot of race barriers. [inaudible 00:04:52] A young guy, he wanted to play with the best athletes and did not matter to us what color you were. So I got involved that way. That was my first. SM (00:05:03): That you are the third only person of all the people I have interviewed outside the politicians who met him, but actually you saw him speak. How close were you to the stage or you were up in the audience someplace? How long did he speak? MD (00:05:20): He spoke I think at least an hour. And he was speaking from the steps of a church. And the crowd was just surrounding all the blocks all around there. I was probably a half a block away. I could barely see him, but they had speakers set up and you could hear. SM (00:05:40): Oh, so you heard the speakers then? MD (00:05:42): Yeah, I basically heard speakers. I could not really see any expressions. I could just see little tiny people up there. But it was incredible. SM (00:05:52): Yeah. I know about Flint because when I was at Ohio State, I went through Flint on the way to Oakland University. I think I had a friend there, that worked there, and I remember being in the bus station downtown Detroit and Flint, and I believe that is where, what's his name? Earvin, the great basketball player came from there. MD (00:06:17): Oh, Magic Johnson? SM (00:06:18): Yeah. Magic Johnson. Yeah. MD (00:06:21): He was from East Lansing. SM (00:06:22): Yeah, he was from the area. Okay. Now you are an athlete, you are in a Catholic school, now you are in a seminary. You saw the differences between black and white, which was one of the biggest issues of the day. And of course, Dr. King. As a young person, were you one of the youngest people that was as a white person involved in this? MD (00:06:42): Probably. Certainly when we set up the Urban Coalition in Flint, I was the youngest. I was certainly the youngest white person, and there were not that many white people at first you know. SM (00:06:53): What was the purpose of the Urban Coalition? MD (00:06:55): It was to try to try to just deal with the race disparity, calm things down. I mean, it was a rather dangerous time to be a teenager, whether you were black or white in a situation like that, because there was a lot of stuff going on. That is why I got involved in it, mostly cause of that. And then try to get local businesses to hire some of the young black guys in the neighborhood because there was just no jobs for most teenagers. And if you were black, you did not have a chance. SM (00:07:29): Right. We all know what happened when Dr. King was assassinated. All the things that happened in the cities was pretty sad. MD (00:07:40): We kept a [inaudible] on that. We had a huge memorial, and rally, and a march. And rioting did not break out in Flint. Then it did during the same time as Detroit Riot, though, so it got pretty scary then. But yeah, I think it worked out. SM (00:08:01): What were your thoughts at that time on the Vietnam War? Were you one of those individuals like I was? And the many that were subject to the draft? Or your number was high, or how did that work out? MD (00:08:14): Well first, when I first started hearing about Vietnam, it was actually, I was hearing about Laos because some of the older guys I know were going into the service and they were going to be sent to Laos. So, it was like, I did not know what Vietnam was at first. Then by the time I graduated high school in 1967, it was a pretty well-known thing. And then I went off to college and some of my friends enlisted, and a few of them came back wounded and had all kinds of stories. And then I was in the first draft lottery that year, 1970, and my number was number 32. SM (00:08:53): 32? MD (00:08:54): Yeah. SM (00:08:55): That is not good. MD (00:08:56): No. So I immediately got drafted, and so I applied for conscientious objector status at that time and still got drafted. And then I went through about, oh, from about mid-1970 to the end of (19)72, where I was just in the back and forth battle with the draft board. And I had to appear before the draft board. My argument [inaudible] any type to begin with. And then after about, I was, what did I call it? My draft status went to 1AO. 1AO. Objector. And they kept telling me that they were going to find a spot from me to where I could work alternative service, dealing with finding wounded guy's hospital facilities near their hometowns. And about two or three times that was getting it and started in the process, and that just never happened. And then all of a sudden out of the blue, they just discharged me. SM (00:10:10): Wow. MD (00:10:11): I guess it was they had enough of me. One of my uncles, my dad's brother, Dr. Bill Donley, he was a pediatrician in Pontiac, Michigan, and he was one of the people that, he was a role model to me because he was involved in the open housing movement in early days. [inaudible] suburban pediatrics practice. So he just opened up an inner city one. But he also, he was a World War II Navy officer, and he was totally opposed to the war, and he was involved with the people that put on the moratorium, and he was also involved with the bunch doctors that were helping people get medical deferment. SM (00:10:58): Oh, wow. And yeah, the moratorium, I think was (19)69, I think, if I remember. MD (00:10:58): Yeah. He had been involved helping on that. He was a great guy. And my dad too. My dad was one of the first college presidents that telegraphed LBJ to end the war. SM (00:11:14): Well, that is something I want to hear about. Because your dad was involved in the community college system in Colorado? MD (00:11:22): Nevada. SM (00:11:23): Nevada. And he was the president of what now? MD (00:11:26): Well, he worked his way up from being an English teacher and baseball coach. He is another World War II vet that used the GI bill to further his education. And then he became the president of Flint Junior College. And then that was at the point when community colleges were being invented. And he and Charles Stewart Mott. Know who he is? SM (00:11:52): Charles... No, I do not. MD (00:11:54): He was the top shareholder in General Motors. He has got foundations that have outlived him, and he was a very instrumental guy. He was a person that is a role model. He's one of the greatest philanthropists ever in my mind. And he was totally loyal to Flint. He served as mayor for seven years, and he had an instrumental role in getting the sit-down strike settled peacefully. And the union being recognized, and General Motors being the top corporation [inaudible] over 40 years. But he also, he and a friend of his, Frank Manley, are the guys that invented community schools. And it started in Flint. And so, when [inaudible] community colleges, [inaudible] called Mott Community College, donated the land for it, and shook down all of his industrial cronies for money to build the college. And he and my dad were partners on that. And then in 1970, Nevada wanted to get a college, [inaudible]. Howard Hughes knew CS Mott, so CS Mott recommended my dad. Howard Hughes gave a $250,000 donation. And that is how the community college system in Nevada got started. SM (00:13:07): Oh my gosh. That was around the time he was, was that when he was kind of hibernating? And the whole... MD (00:13:12): Oh, yeah. My dad never, ever met him. He went through intermediaries. But these industrial philanthropists saw the potential of community college. Then my dad, because of that... He was the President of the Association of Community College Presidents and helped get them accredited all over the country. He traveled the country getting community colleges set up. SM (00:13:40): Wow. That is a very important phenomenon during the time when boomers were young. Because I actually went to a community college for two years, Broome Community College in Binghamton. And then I went to Binghamton University to get my history degree, and then I went off to Ohio State. But I know how important community colleges were because it was an excellent education for less money. MD (00:14:06): Oh, yeah. SM (00:14:07): Now your dad sent a letter off to the president. Did he ever get a response? MD (00:14:14): I do not think he did. He sent a couple different tele... the only reason I know that, is there is this famous incident when students took over his office, the president's office about the war. And my dad just opened up his door and he said, "Hey, look, I have already sent the telegrams. Here you go." But he was ahead of them. SM (00:14:38): Now, obviously you are an activist today. We are going to get into that about the environment and the forests and everything. But now you are not an activist yet. You are a very involved person. You are working together, bringing people together, and then going off to college and everything. What did you think of the anti-war people that you saw on your college campuses? MD (00:15:04): At the community college there was not a whole lot of activity, though the Chicago Convention, sure amped that up. The (19)68 convention. And quite a few of the people that were active in the anti-war movement were people that I'd gone to Catholic school with. And so I liked them and they were able to reach me pretty easily. But when I went off to Michigan State, it really got amped up. Because Kent State happened during that time and all sorts of stuff. The invasion of Cambodia. I should say, that also was a very interesting event in Flint that I went to. The SDS, the Weathermen, when the Weathermen broke off from the SDS, they held a thing called the War Council in Flint, right before they went underground. And they rented this place in the inner city, one of the black clubs, and they had this event. So I and a few of my friends went down to it. And that was an eyeopener. That was something totally different than any of us had ever thought about. SM (00:16:08): Explain what happened there. MD (00:16:11): They basically ranted and raved and ranted and raved and called for armed insurrection. That is, it basically. And I do not know, I am way too much of a pacifist for that. I was completely shocked by that. SM (00:16:30): That was Bernardine Dohrn was not it? She was the president, I think. MD (00:16:34): Yeah, she was there. I think Mark Rudd [inaudible]. SM (00:16:37): Yeah, and Mark Rudd. And there were... MD (00:16:40): Quite a few people there. SM (00:16:41): Her husband too, I think was in that group. Bernardine Dohrn. MD (00:16:45): Yeah. It was very strange. And I remember that one of the more radical inner city churches, Sacred Heart Church, allowed all these people to sleep in their gym and this and that. Anyway, so that was the way more radical fringe as an anti-war movement. And then I went off to Michigan State. There was a very big movement, but there was a lot of infighting going on because of the, you know, you had your Marxist wing, you had your pacifist wing. I had gone to a few organizing meetings for demonstrations, and I just could not deal with it. I do not know what it was. It was just too much of an intellectual exercise and a lot of people making points and self-aggrandizing and so on. I went to these major anti-war rallies that were going on during that time. And then the student strike in 1970 took place there, and there were thousands of students out the street. Took over the main thoroughfares and cut off traffic, and fought it out with the cops there too. The people did. And there was a lot of tear gas craziness. But by that time, things were getting pretty polarized. It carved out strong positions on the war. And of course that was before I got drafted. But by the time I was drafted, I was thoroughly opposed to the war. SM (00:18:20): Now you were there through (19)71? MD (00:18:23): Yes. SM (00:18:24): It is interesting because I was at Ohio State in (19)71, (19)72, and I remember one of my friends at Ohio State's best friend was in grad school at Michigan State. And we drove there, and as we were coming into the campus, we were asked to get out of the car. They thought we were infiltrators, right? MD (00:18:41): [inaudible] SM (00:18:42): And that was in the (19)71, so it was still happening there, and the students were on the streets protesting and everything. MD (00:18:50): Yeah, it was a big deal because Michigan State University has a huge police science academy there, and they were training [inaudible] for the South Vietnamese for a while. And so people really wanted to shut that down. So, I think it was pretty polarized. SM (00:19:08): These interviews are all about you and all the people I interview because I get into the basic questions that I ask everybody, but it is the personal stuff that is most important to me. During your years there at Michigan State, whether it was two years or whatever, you obviously saw the protests and went to the protests, but were there any great speakers who came in to address the campus that you saw? Any programs that you went to that had really an impact on your life? MD (00:19:38): Yeah. Senator Wayne Morse came to the Michigan State. SM (00:19:41): Big time. MD (00:19:42): And he was one of the only two people to vote against the war. So we made all these signs, Wayne Morse for president, and we went. He was... That was highly impressive to me. SM (00:19:54): He is from Oregon. MD (00:19:55): I know. Maybe one reason I came here, I do not know. That and Ken Kesey. SM (00:20:01): Right. MD (00:20:01): And my wife, of course. So, I think Wayne Morse was probably the greatest speaker I saw at address the war. SM (00:20:12): Did he speak in a gym, or in a room? MD (00:20:18): It was a, like a theater kind of performing arts hall, probably 3000 people. SM (00:20:26): Was it an evening or daytime program? MD (00:20:27): An evening, yeah. SM (00:20:29): Was it tense? MD (00:20:29): It was right by my dorm, so it was pretty easy. SM (00:20:32): So it was packed? Was he the only speaker? Did he have a Q&A too after he spoke? MD (00:20:42): No, he did not. But another time I saw Dick Gregory speak, he did have a Q&A after. SM (00:20:47): Oh, he is another big one. MD (00:20:48): And he was another really good one that influenced me. I was really impressed by him. SM (00:20:54): And what was, if you can remember, it has been a while, but I remember all my speakers too in college. What was the main thrusts of Senator Morse's speech? MD (00:21:06): Basically that the war was illegal and needed to end immediately, and it violated all American principles and democratic principles. And he just laid it out simply that I think he's the first person I heard ever say that, that Ho Chi Minh and the North Vietnamese had used our constitution as their model. SM (00:21:33): Which is true. MD (00:21:35): Yeah, I believe that is true. I have always been told it was true, because I heard Senator Wayne Morse say it was true. SM (00:21:41): And also he admired Thomas Jefferson. He was a big Jefferson fan. MD (00:21:46): Oh, yeah. SM (00:21:47): Truman missed an opportunity there. MD (00:21:52): Yeah. SM (00:21:53): How about, were there any bands or performers that you saw during those years at Michigan State that were? MD (00:22:00): Oh, yeah, there was. I saw all kinds of musicians and performers that were in that time. But I think the ones that were the most political were, I saw the Jefferson Airplane and John Sebastian. Along with a number of other groups in an outdoor concert. And they hammered away at it. They had a decided anti-war platform they were putting out. SM (00:22:30): When Kent State happened, your school was still in session, correct? MD (00:22:34): Yes. SM (00:22:35): How did you guys find out about it? MD (00:22:38): Oh, it spread like wildfire through the dorms and to the college. Lots of misinformation too. I mean, the misinformation had police getting killed and all sorts of stuff. So it took a little while to figure it all out. First we all went and hit the TV to find out what was going on. And I think it was almost just immediately there was a huge protest. Calls for [inaudible] strike. SM (00:23:07): And did your school shut down early because of it? MD (00:23:12): The school kept going. The student’s kind of forced the strike. SM (00:23:16): Okay. MD (00:23:17): Students took over the administration building. The police came. It was a wild time. I think it was more of a voluntary, it was voluntary. Whether you abided by the strike or not, the school kept going. SM (00:23:32): Who was the president of Michigan State then? Do you remember? MD (00:23:35): I cannot remember. SM (00:23:37): Because that person [inaudible] MD (00:23:40): Right. I cannot believe I cannot remember his name. He was the first black president, you know? I could undoubtedly look it up. SM (00:23:51): Yeah. But those were sometimes, I will tell you. What do you think when you think of the (19)60s? And again, I say the (19)60s went right until about (19)73, (19)74, because... What do you think were the watershed moments that, in your opinion? When did the (19)60s begin in your eyes? MD (00:24:18): I think they probably began with the assassination of President Kennedy. That opened up a lot of peoples' eyes to hey, things are not quite what they seem. SM (00:24:29): And when did you feel personally in your life that the (19)60s had ended? MD (00:24:40): I do not think they have, in the sense that, I think the major contribution of the (19)60s was a rise in consciousness. A willingness of people to challenge the dominant paradigm, and to figure it out on their own without some authorities interpreting. And being the middle man and what reality is, and I think that was blasted out forever by the (19)60s. That was a big peak. SM (00:25:12): Is there one, you have already mentioned quite a few that could have had an impact on you. Is there one event that had the greatest impact on you personally when you were young? MD (00:25:33): Yeah. The funny thing is, I think it is LBJ's resignation. SM (00:25:38): Explain your reasoning for that. MD (00:25:41): Because I felt it was the first time that the government was held accountable. That [inaudible] the government was acting badly, and the person behind it all was going to take the fall for it. It was something that all of us really wanted to see, and it actually happened. SM (00:26:03): What do you think, when we are talking about boomers, at least one third of the people I have interviewed are not boomers? They were born before (19)46. But when you think of the 1950s, we are talking now about the (19)60s, but in the (19)50s, the boomers were really in elementary school. Well, they were in... Post-war, of course, they were in diapers in the first five years. And then because in the (19)50s, they were in elementary school or beginnings of junior high. Your thoughts on, what was it about the (19)50s that created the (19)60s in your view? MD (00:26:49): Oh, maybe rock and roll. I mean, things were starting to shift. There was rise of... The cultural stuff was changing. Rhythm and blues was happening. Black culture was getting more play. It existed. The big part of it, I think, I think there was a cultural shift that was starting in the (19)50s. So I was kind of completely ensconced in the Catholic Church. I still feel that the reverberations going on around that things are starting to change. SM (00:27:33): Well, you're talking about going to the Catholic Church. You know, the (19)50s, one of the observations we find is that many of the boomer children are going to church, synagogue. They were going every Sunday. And then as we got to the late (19)60s and early (19)70s, that was not happening anymore. Many were not going. They went inside themselves more. Like the spirituality changed. And that was part of the communal movement too. But your thoughts on just, if you're devout Catholic, just what happened to the attendance and why it all of a sudden, fewer were going to church as they got older? MD (00:28:19): Well, I think the Catholic Church got on the wrong side of the two greatest moral issues of the day. And one was population, and the other is the war. I think they were on the wrong side of it, and I think they lost a lot of credibility. I do not think they ever recovered. I was taught, when I was applying for my conscientious objector status, I met with Monsignor Sheridan, who had been my pastor all my life. He pushed me into the seminary and everything. And while he agreed with me that I was a conscientious objector, he was going on and on about, "But do not you realize we're over there in Vietnam defending the Catholics from the north?" And then he closed with a rant about abortion. It was like... I mean, it was clearly, there was a shift that took place that the church was on the wrong side of. When I went into the seminary in the early (19)60s, John Kennedy was President, a Catholic president. John Paul the 23rd was Pope, a very popular Pope. Church was in a heyday. And there were 242 guys in my freshman class. And four years later, only 14 graduated. And a big shift took place right there in the middle of the (19)60s. And I think that the church was not very forceful on civil rights either. They should have taken a much bigger lead than that, I think. SM (00:29:45): Yeah. I can remember my grandfather was a Methodist minister, so we went every Sunday. And then I went off to school and it was more logistics than anything else for me. But there was something about the messages also within the church. This is just my thoughts on your thoughts. The messages in the (19)50s within the churches was... They were just moral messages or they were more simple messages. They were not worldwide messages. And Dr. King was such a rare breed because he was talking about, the black ministers were talking about justice in their churches. And I am not sure if the white churches were, or the synagogues. I do not know what they were doing. And so, the social conscience became part of the message of many of the religious leaders as we go into the (19)60s. And at the same time that was happening, more and more young people were not going to church or synagogue or... I find it ironic that that was actually happening. Just your thoughts on that? Is my observation, right? MD (00:30:59): Yeah, but I think the individual ministers and priests and rabbis were... there was the Berrigan wing of the Catholic Church. But then you have your right-wing wing too, that was sporting the status quo. And social justice did not really matter, even across the radar. And it became, to me, it just seemed like it was exclusionary and elitist that the church became. That all this stuff was going on that had a huge real-world impact. There were very moral issues and the church was not addressing them, or if it was, it was getting on the wrong side. And that is what blew me out of it. SM (00:31:47): The one minister that seems to have been a constant through all this was Billy Graham. He seemed to be an important voice no matter when, throughout the last 50 years. So, he is one of the rare constants. The boomers have been thought of as also the TV generation. Were you influenced by TV? It certainly brought the Vietnam War home in the (19)60s, but what were your thoughts on the TV of the (19)50s? The black and white television shows? MD (00:32:17): I was not so much into TV, and I think it might have been because of the sports. And I did not watch a whole lot of TV. I cannot remember. I'd watch Soupy Sales when I was a kid, and the cartoon shows, and the Three Stooges, things like that. SM (00:32:33): You were not a Musketeer fan? MD (00:32:36): Nah, not really. Did not watch much of that. I do not know. My parents were, they were fairly strict around that stuff. I could not watch stuff like Gunsmoke or anything like that. SM (00:32:48): Oh, okay. Yeah. All the westerns. MD (00:32:50): Yeah, they would not allow that. And so I never watched much on TV other than sports. And then I really started getting into watching the news. Walter Cronkite I really liked to watch. [inaudible] SM (00:33:04): Yeah. Was that back, you mentioned that important event where Johnson decided not to run as being the probably the most important events in your life. Well, Walter Cronkite, he made a comment about Walter Cronkite. "Well, if Walter Cronkite's against the war, so that is all over for me." Or something like that. MD (00:33:26): In fact, I watched that. Johnson's basic resignation speech with my dad. And my dad, it really bothered him because Johnson had been so good for community colleges. He was so good on so many things, the great society programs and everything. And the war just undid him. SM (00:33:46): I am asking, where were you when you first heard John Kennedy was killed? MD (00:33:51): I was in the seminary. I was in class. All of a sudden, we got told that we had to go to assembly in the main assembly hall. They did not tell us why. And then everybody went over there and they began with a prayer. And then one of the priests came up and said that the president had been shot and he was in the hospital and we were going to pray for him and so on. And then even before that assembly got over, we were told that he was dead and that they were arranging, calling our parents to come and us take us home for a few days. SM (00:34:21): All right. Do you remember where you were when you heard about Martin Luther King's death? MD (00:34:31): Yes. Yeah, I was in Flint. I was at home at the time. That is when I was in, yeah. SM (00:34:41): Did they break into the TV or just radio or? MD (00:34:45): Yeah, I heard, yeah, it was all TV. It just came out all over the TV. SM (00:34:52): And how about the Bobby Kennedy assassination two months later to the day? MD (00:34:57): I was watching TV when that happened. I was watching it. Yeah, I was... MD (00:35:03): I was watching it. Yeah, 1968 probably was the most influential year in my life. I have to say that. There's so many things happened. I mean, you had Dr. King, Robert Kenned, you had the Chicago convention and just everything just blew up. SM (00:35:23): Ted was that year, too. MD (00:35:29): That is what happened. It was mind boggling. I mean, it was such a shift from the quiet 50 and growing up in Flint. SM (00:35:37): Did you ever think, some people have said that outside of the Civil War, this was the most conflicted period in American history, that we were close to a second civil war. Some people made those comments. Do you believe that? MD (00:35:54): Yes, I do believe that. And I mean, there was the racial tinder box that going on, and there was just, like I said, you had these radicals on the anti-war side that were willing to blow stuff up, had people on the other side who were awful, and there were movies that were glorifying the people who were pro-war and opposed all the poor hippies and stuff. And then of course, we had Merle Haggard song, Muskogee, even though that was the satire, some people took it seriously. So it was polarizing things. There was intentional polarization going on. And one of the things I witnessed that really had an impact on me is when I was at Michigan State, and I think it was 1969, there was a big anti-war march down to the state capitol in Lansing. And some guy driving, they had three lanes blocked off with the marches, and they were trying to get the traffic on the other lanes. And some guy just went crazy. And he just drove his car right into the crowd, even hit a motorcycle cop that I just was talking to, right by me. And I know I was just in shock. I was broken down in tears on the side of the road. I did not believe that. SM (00:37:17): Were any students really hurt? MD (00:37:19): A number of people got hurt, nobody got killed. The cop had a couple broken legs and a few other things. And then of course, some people just went crazy and started pounding and beating on the guy's car. And the police came and dragged him off. SM (00:37:33): Was he drunk or was he just did not like the protestors? MD (00:37:36): Did not like the protest. He just lost it. He snapped. And so, I could see where it has been real close, the people being pushed to start a civil war. There was always people that were, "We got to get guns, we got to get weapons, we got to be prepared and that." There was that whole faction always, but most people did not take that seriously. Yeah, I do not know. But I do think that people intentionally polarized the situation. SM (00:38:10): This question oftentimes is difficult to answer, but we are talking about 78 million people here who are the Boomer generation in which you are one. One of the criticisms, there's actually been a couple, but one of the criticisms of the generation is that, well, only 15 percent were ever involved in any kind of activism. 85 percent, just like anybody else, they did not do anything, just went on with their lives. But when you look at the 15 percent, that is a pretty big number out of 78 million. But just your thoughts on the Boomer generation, and maybe I am commenting on the 15 percent of the activist because it's hard to generalize on everybody. What do you think were some of the strengths and weaknesses of your generation? MD (00:38:58): Well, I think the greatest strength was the willingness to challenge the dominant paradigm, the accepted definitions of reality. And I think that goes on through today. Willingness to step outside of the status quo and take some risks that way. That I think that is probably the greatest strength of the whole Boomer generation. I think we had a more collective view, a collectivist view of the world that we are all in it together, it is not just me against the world or you and me against the world, and we are all in this together. I think that came about. I think the boundaries of community went from the local neighborhood to the state, to the country to encompass the whole world. And I think that brought about in our generation. That was a big strength, actually. SM (00:40:05): I know that politicians like Newt Gingrich and commentators like George Will, oftentimes when they get a chance, they take a shot at the (19)60s generation or that era in the (19)60s and (19)70s is the reason why we have a lot of problems in our society today. I know Newt Gingrich talked about this when he came into power in (19)94. He may run for president again, by the way. There is rumors that he may run against Obama. MD (00:40:32): Well, there is one of the problems with our generation. There is a lot of self-absorbed self-promoters. And I see that as undermining a lot of the good our generation has done. SM (00:40:46): Can you give some more examples of that? MD (00:40:49): Oh yeah. The whole nonprofit sector is just filled with people who are self-promoters. They attach themselves to a cause and it is not necessarily that it is their deep-seated beliefs in the cause of the matter. It is just a way for them to rise their star. And I have noticed that dramatically in the environmental movement. I have written about that a lot. And I think it kind of permeates non-profit culture, which is something that pretty much is a child of our generation too. Did not really exist until this much. And I do not know I what you do, I have been fighting that forever in the environmental movement with a lot of people, is how do you keep the issue being the main focus and not people's personalities and their need to lead or at least pretend that they are leading some movement and this and that. And that was going on in the peace movement too. And I just do not know. I think that may be our greatest weakness as a generation is we have not figured out how to deal with the self-promoters that undermine us. SM (00:41:58): You raised a good point here because obviously when you think about the environmental... I see that in other issues beyond the environment and also about politicians who latch onto an issue. And that is why Senator McCarthy is always in question. He was obviously deserving of what happened in 1968, but then all of a sudden he just dropped out. I know Bobby Kennedy was killed. But your thoughts on in Earth Day, which was a monumental happening on the 22nd of April in 1970, were you at the first Earth Day? MD (00:42:32): Yeah, I went to something at Michigan State University. There was some kind of tree planting ceremony and people playing Frisbee and flying kites and so on, and talking about the environment. SM (00:42:43): Well, I know the Earth Day in Washington it was just unbelievable. I know Dennis Hayes, who I have interviewed for this book, and of course Gaylord Nelson, he's passed away, but he was the former senator of Wisconsin. They were the two leaders of Earth Day. I think it was actually Gaylord Nelson's idea. And of course, he sat down with the anti-war movement to make sure that we are not challenging your anti-war movement, so there was a working there. But your thoughts on people like Dennis Hayes, who has been involved in this for his whole life, and certainly Gaylord Nelson, who was the senator who is the father of Earth Day, and he has done unbelievable things in Wisconsin. I went to his funeral and I cannot believe what he did there for the environment in Wisconsin. He seemed like the real deal. MD (00:43:36): Yeah, I really liked Earth Day. I wish we would get more in tune with the rest of the world. But the UN on the spring equinox is coming up this weekend, northern hemisphere, and the fall equinox in the southern hemisphere. I wish we were more in tune with the rest of the world on that. But obviously Earth Day is a great event and overdue. And of course it needs to be Earth Day every day. But I personally have some bad feelings toward [inaudible] so I do not know if it should go into that. SM (00:44:08): Me, I got to turn my tape here too. Can you hold on one sec? Individuals. I respect everybody's views. And of course I know Rachel Carson was another one, even though she's passed on. She was kind of a God. And I read her book and I do not think she was into self-promotion. She was just a great writer. MD (00:44:32): No, Rachel Carson was one of my all-time hero. Without a doubt. Her book influenced me a lot. My thing with Hayes, back in 1993 after Clinton was elected, and I was one of the people that was instrumental in starting the ancient forest protection movement. And Clinton was coming out here to hold a forest summit, as he called it. And so obviously there was going to be only a few people that had been on the summit. If there were thousands and thousands of actors that we had actually mobilized in order to get that issue made into a national issue. Which is one of my piece with institutional environmentalism today, they think that mailing lists and sign on letters constitutes activism. To me, it is mobilizing people. So it came to me. We had a big meeting of activists down the national park that when this happened, Portland, we need to throw a free concert and rally and get people there. And so, I drew up a plan for that. I started to shop. I was the vice president of the Oregon Natural Resources Council at the time, which was the statewide coalition. And so I drew up the plan, the proposal, and started shopping around everybody work, get the money to do this. And then I know some musicians, Baby Boomer musicians. So we contacted Carol King and Kenny Loggins and Bonnie Raitt and Jackson Brown. And I said, "Okay, are you guys into this? You are willing to help, da-da-da-da-da." Okay. And finally, Dennis Hayes, through the Bullet Foundation, got involved. And I got pitched overboard as well as most of the activists. And when the final day came, 70,000 people showed up. It was the biggest political rally in the history of Oregon. They surpassed this recently when Barack Obama came during the campaign. And it was incredible. And Neil Young, all sorts, David Crosby. SM (00:46:39): Oh, wow. You got them. I know how difficult they are to get anywhere. MD (00:46:43): Oh, I know. They were on our side. And so, then I have a friend who is, he is now the editor of Autobahn Magazine. At the time, he was one of the editors at Time Magazine, David Seidman. He had written a book about our efforts at Opal Creek called Showdown at Opal Creek. And so he came out to the rally and got to interview Neil Young and everybody. But Dennis Hayes went up and spoke to the people about the issue, which he was not really involved in. And then he actually had one of his minions tell David Seidman that the whole idea for the concert had come to him in a green dream that he had. And I am telling you, there is a paper trail as to where the idea came from. And so, David, of course, told me that, could not believe it either. So, part of me wonders what poor hippie Dennis Hayes stole the Earth Day idea from. SM (00:47:43): Well, I think it was Gaylord Nelson. MD (00:47:44): I know. SM (00:47:45): Yeah. Because Gaylord was the one that really came up with the idea. But he was also big anti-war. And he knew it could cost him his senatorial position, and he lost his senatorial position. MD (00:47:58): Well, anyway, that that is the sour taste in my mouth. And the fact that Clinton came out here and he restarted ancient forest logging, we had it stopped with an injunction and he got it be going now was the upshot of his. Well, the whole thing is in the history of our activist context, it is not that great. SM (00:48:18): But you are, when you hear the Gingrich's and the Wills make those comments about the Boomer generation, because he is referring to the increase in the divorce rate, the drug culture, all these negative things that he thinks had been gone into society. And even Barney Frank wrote a book called Speaking Frankly, and he was Mr. Democrat, who said that the Democratic party and McGovern had to get away from those kinds of people if they wanted to survive as a party. And he wrote that in the early (19)90s. Just your thoughts on those kinds of comments. They happen all the time. MD (00:48:56): Well, like I say, there are a lot of self-promoters that have had fairly free reign. There does not seem to be any way to check and balance them. So, I can see where there is a legitimate criticism there. The things that you were talking about specifically, Will bringing up the rise in the divorce rate. Well, I would say the dominant paradigm around relationships has totally shifted in my lifetime. It used to be that people got together and they stayed together even if they hated each other. SM (00:49:29): That is the (19)50s. MD (00:49:31): And then now you have this serial monogamy thing where people are with someone until death do your part. But that means the death of the relationship. And I do not know. I see a lot of people are not satisfied that either. So, I think we are still working on that one. SM (00:49:49): What are your thoughts? A lot of the Boomers thought they were the most unique generation in American history. When you hear people say that, what are your thoughts? MD (00:49:59): Oh, I just think that... SM (00:50:04): Because they were going to change the world, they were going to end racism, sexism, homophobia, bring peace to the world. That was the communal, the community feeling back. MD (00:50:15): Yeah. I feel like we had great ideals. Often, we were not very practical or pragmatic in carrying them out. And then a lot of times I think that we're up against such an established order that it is pretty hard to carry any of that out. I think that any of the positive changes that have happened have happened because of pressure. I do not think that power changes without pressure and cultural things do not change either without pressure. I always thought that it is a conceit that we are somehow the most unique generation. I mean I look at what my parents and my in-laws, that generation, the World War II generation was phenomenal. You look back, how about the people of the time of the Civil War. I mean, some it is apples and oranges things too. Each generation has to react to the challenges that happen during their lifetime. And some of them have. SM (00:51:24): What are the things that we have to admit though about this era? The times that Boomers, when I say they are young, I am talking about really the (19)50s, the (19)60s, the (19)70s, and the (19)80s. I mean, I am talking about people in their 20s, 30s, and early 40s, because people are still young then. When you look at the period of all the movements, because obviously the civil rights movement was ongoing from the (19)50s. And the other movements learned from that movement, including the anti-war movement. And I have talked to people in the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, Blacks movement, Black power movement, and certainly the environmental movement. These are all very important. And there seem to be a sense of community within these groups so that if, for example, an environmental protest was happening, these other groups were there. The winds movement too. And I do not know if there is a camaraderie anymore between these groups. They all still exist in some way. But what has happened to the movement? MD (00:52:34): There has been more fragmentation there. And some of that I attribute to identity politics where people were so tied to their own identity thing that they cannot jump out of it enough and keep the connection with people in other things. And sometimes that just gets stirred. I have been involved with the American Indian movement too all along. I forgot to mention that. And so that is a huge part of the environmental movement still. SM (00:53:12): Did you go into that relationship, because I talked to Paul Chaat Smith on Washington. He wrote a book on the American Indian movement. And the American Indian movement heyday was (19)69 to (19)73. Those are four very powerful years. But I think it is very important, just what you said, the linkage between the Native American movement and the environmental movement. Expound on that, please. MD (00:53:34): Okay. Well obviously, there is some romanticism toward Native Americans and they live in harmony with the land and everything else. But in reality, most Native American cultures have a spiritual and social viewpoint that you do treat the earth as primary. So that fit right in. Some of my friends in the American Indian movement, John Trudel and Calvin Akaka and others clearly have an environmental views and have always been there and been on the side of the environment. It is always there. It is still there. The Native American movement, of course, that had a heyday and it kind is not officially any movement anymore. But people were there. And a lot of the people, some Boomers too, we are all same. And I think that is always been there. The threat of the land based on Native lands that Native people will control. And sacred lands that are now public lands that are being... So there's this natural symbiosis. There's an environmental law conference called the Public Interest Environmental Law Conference at the University of Oregon. It is the oldest one in the world, was out of Europe. And always there is a huge contingent of Native Americans that come and speak and are welcome. And I heard a whole gathering of Native elders talking about all the problems on the reservations and what's going on. And they are actually using the term extinction now to describe what's happened to their culture. I have never heard that used that before. SM (00:55:22): This is in the last couple years? MD (00:55:24): Just in the last couple years. SM (00:55:25): That is sad. MD (00:55:29): Yeah, I know. So that bond is there, that connection is there. It is tough because it is a different culture. And my grandfather's half [inaudible], and so was his mother and his father. And even though I was not raised in that culture at all, and my great-grandmother got forced to move to Oklahoma when she was a kid, but I did get to know her because she lived to 99. And so, I have an interest in it that way, but I am not from that culture. But maybe it's because I grew up being a minority in the minor neighborhood. I do not have that much of a problem. I can understand the various different cultures, but there is a lot of ways where white people just despite being just unconscious and insensitive, are awfully to Native people, even when they are on the same side. So, there is that friction, but the movement is there. The other movements involved, that I see the connections with, the radical environmental movement has been fragmented by the identity politics stuff. People who, for them being transgendered or the bisexual, gay, lesbian or even some other identity, whatever they got, hardcore women's movement, this and that. And they want to bring all the social justice issues to the forefront of the environmental issue. And it hamstrings the movement when you bring the movements together. And then the one movement only will participate if their cause is primary. SM (00:57:16): Yeah. You mentioned too, and I read something on the web that even groups like the Wilderness Society and the Sierra Club are who are, well, for the environment, obviously but they're afraid of non-violent protest. MD (00:57:32): Yes. SM (00:57:33): Even if the goal is nature. now, that is amazing because Gaylord Nelson was a lawyer for the Wilderness Society for many, many years until he passed. Could you say a little bit, why is it that these I guess the main line or mainstream environmental groups have issues with this? I think they would be praising. MD (00:57:57): I think it boils right down to the fact that they are preachers of the Democratic party and of the foundations that kill their coffers. And those entities are status quo entities. And so, they do not want to risk their access as they call it. Whether meaningful or not, they want to have access to politicians. And they also, of course do not want to risk their bottom line of their grant portfolios. So, it is one of those things follow the money, follow the power. It has been going on a long time. There's numerous books written it. There was an article in the Nation just last week about it. Jonathan Hari, H-A-R-I. SM (00:58:38): Oh, I subscribe to the Nation now. I think I have the issue. I have not read it yet. MD (00:58:42): Okay. It is called The Wrong Kind of Green. And Counterpunch has been writing about it for years. Jeffrey St. Clair wrote a book called Been Brown So Long It Looked Like Green To Me. SM (00:58:57): Oh wow. It was interesting because Gaylord Nelson was a lawyer at Wilderness for golly, God in a long time. But I took students to see him and all he talked about was the environment with the students, all the other issues... He kept saying, "Okay, we got problems between different cultures and different races, okay, but none of us would be here if we do not have an environment." Now, Gaylord Nelson to me was such a rare breed. And when he came to our campus twice, he talked about the fact of overpopulation. He kept saying this overpopulation is a big issue. And I am not sure if a lot of people were listening to him. He was kind of a guy out there... MD (00:59:43): Oh, you cannot get the big environmental groups to touch overpopulation with a 10-foot fall now. SM (00:59:49): That was one of the central pieces of his life. MD (00:59:53): Yeah. Yeah. I think what happens is these organizations, once they get, as a friend of mine once said, once an organization gains a life of its own, it will go down hard just like any other life form. And they become ossified. They have to maintain their empire, an empire building. The interest of the institution become primary over the cause. SM (01:00:20): Right. MD (01:00:22): And then that is the drawback in [inaudible]. SM (01:00:23): Did you have a generation gap between you and your parents? MD (01:00:28): I had a little bit of one. SM (01:00:30): What were the main issues between... The main issues? MD (01:00:34): Oh, mine were probably around the Catholic church. And I mean we were pretty much in agreement on the war. We were definitely in agreement on race. We were one of the last white families in the neighborhood. Everybody just disappeared. And my parents were not about to do that. So I guess the gap was more social stuff. Of course I was into experimenting with pot. After I was done with my athletic stuff. I was one of those classic your body is your temple. I did not even drink anything until I was 21. SM (01:01:16): Did you see amongst your friends that they were having issues with their parents? MD (01:01:20): Oh yeah. A lot of them were just totally at odds with their parents. SM (01:01:29): Yeah, obviously that was one of the main characteristics of that period. What are your thoughts, I know you cannot talk about 78 million people, but the Boomers that you have known in your life, do you think they have been good parents and good grandparents? And I say this, number one, have they shared the experiences of when they were young and do you think their kids were listening to them? And number two, have they kept their idealism or have majority of them you think moved on like all other generations? They go raised families, make money and survival and security's number one over ideals. MD (01:02:11): I think we may have been a more indulgent generation as parents in that we hover around kids more, are more protective. When I was a kid, I was outside all the time, running up and down the streets doing whatever, carrying on. And then I see my generation being way more protective of, was the other kid. Of course now with their grandkids. And I do not know, I think there was more of that kind of my generation, people who get a kid and they treated was the first child born in the Western world. There was too much of that in our generation, I think. And that can lead to self-absorbed people. SM (01:03:03): It is a term that I love and that is the word activism, but it is just me. I have this perception that universities did not learn from the activism of the students from the (19)60s and (19)70s, just like maybe they did not learn from the students of the 1930s that were very active on college campuses. As someone said to me, no matter what era, they are always going to be afraid of activists. But do you feel that the universities are afraid of student activism today on university campuses for fear that it may be similar to what transpired in the (19)60s and early (19)70s or where there was disruption? And of course, in this day and age, there's so many things wrong with our society that money's the bottom line that they cannot have activism because it could threaten the money flow. MD (01:04:03): I definitely think that is part of it. I was talking about that public interest environmental law conference at the University of Oregon. It used to be way more activist oriented and now it is more about collaboration with industry. And a lot of that is tied to big donors and corporations in the state leaning on the president of the university to tone it down. And they did. So, I have seen that work. It's hard to know. I know quite a few young people in their 20s that have come out of the university system that are activists. So, I think it is still happening, educating people and people making the right choices and trying to make change on the world look better and trying to keep having a collective view of the planet. But I do think that university has got scared off a bit. And I know I go to the universities now and it is all about building the buildings and it is all that kind of stuff. SM (01:05:14): But see, volunteerism is very important. I would be one to say that probably over 90 percent of college students are involved in volunteer of some sort. Some has required within fraternities and sororities and certain organizations. But then a lot of them do it on their own. MD (01:05:33): Well, I think that is key. SM (01:05:35): But see, that is volunteerism. But I have always been a believer that activism is the step beyond volunteerism, which is activism is more 24/7 or as volunteerism might be two to four hours a week or something like that. Your thoughts on that thought? MD (01:05:51): Well, I think that real successful activism is carried out by volunteers, people that are volunteering to do something because it is something really special to them. And it may be 24/7, and it involves a lot more organizing with people. It is one thing to be a volunteer, or be an activist that shows up at a rally. It is another thing to plan that rally and get other people out. And so that kind of activism... And I feel that this goes back to the whole thing of the big bean groups getting ossified stuff. Because I think they lose track of the fact that... David Brower had the statement that he felt you had to have at least 1000 members to justify one paid staff. And when he was strict this year, and I think that people gotten away from that. And the way I think it needs to work is you have to have a mass base of volunteer citizens who are active to jump and then you have to have a paid staff to carry out the will of the mass base. But that is been turned on its head. And now you have people who, because they have a paid job, they feel entitled to make decisions top down for the movement. And that does not work. I just see it never gets the good. Whereas volunteer citizen activism, maybe even involving non-violent direct action will get the good occasionally. But I have really seen that. So I think that volunteer citizen activism is the key. It is great that there is volunteerism going on and people are getting the taste of it. But yeah, you are right. It needs to be if you are going to be an activist it is 24/7. SM (01:07:38): Yeah. Yeah, I reflect a lot on my university experiences because the people that run the universities today are Boomers and generation Xers, the young generation. And what's interesting is that the Boomers experience the (19)60s and they know what it's all about in the universities and the generation Xers overall never really liked the Boomers. And so this is like, well, we're going to do it our way kind of mentality. So, I see a little bit of both. I have a question here too. And this is on healing. I took a group of students to Washington, DC quite a few years ago to see Senator Muskie. Of course, he was the vice-presidential running mate for Humphrey in (19)8. And the reason why we asked this question was similar to the one we were asking you about whether we were headed toward a civil war. And he responded to kind of unique way. But here is the question. Do you feel that Boomers are still having problems with healing due to the extreme divisions that tore the nation apart in their youth, divisions between black and white, between men and women, division between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not? Do you feel the Boomer generation will go to its grave, like the civil war generation not truly healing? Are we wrong in thinking this? Or has 35 or 40 years made the following statement true? Time heals all wounds. And then of course then we ask, has the Vietnam Memorial played any role in the healing process, not only for veterans, but the nation as a whole? Your thoughts on whether the Boomer generation, whether we are talking the 15 percent that were really activists, the people who served their country, Vietnam veterans, anti- war, all these movements we are talking about, even the conservatives that were young Americans for freedom, that we have a problem with healing as we head into old age. MD (01:09:44): Yes. I think there is a problem with the healing. But I think it is more of an institutional thing that there is people that have a stake in keeping the divisions going and sowing fear. Personally, I am very good friends with people that. SM (01:10:03): I am very good friends with people that are Vietnam veterans, and they do not hold anything against me for being a conscientious objector. I do not hold anything against them. In fact, I am saddened and angered about what happened to my brothers and sisters that had to go over there. I feel that, I think it is tragic. I do think the Vietnam Memorial has helped a lot for all of us. It is an incredibly moving place. I have been there. I have a brother who works for the Pentagon. I have good friends that are in the military. My father-in-law was a retired Air Force colonel. My father, my aunt, all my uncles are Vietnam, I mean, World War II vet. I do not have any problem with it, but I think there's an institutional thing [inaudible] keep us polarized that way in order to maintain power. It is the same people that are sowing fear all the time, maintaining power. I think there's, got a lot stacked against us as far as being able to pull that off. MD (01:11:17): Could you, you said, yeah, we have not healed. Could you be a little more specific on what are the areas where we have not healed? SM (01:11:27): Oh, I think it is incredibly hard still for people with different races just to be with one another, just to be. Just to be themselves and not have that be an issue. And politically. Whether you are a pacifist or whether you support the government, it is hard to get beyond that. I mean, I have, even within our families, [inaudible] and I think it is going to be very difficult and maybe to heal all that. There is a lot of acrimony that went on too. MD (01:12:10): I find it is interesting that even though President Obama, he tries to make a point that he is not a member of the Boomer generation. Yet he was born in, I think, (19)62, so he was only two years old. But a lot of people criticize him as being, well, this is the return of the (19)60s generation. They look at him as the return, and of course he denies that he has anything to do with it. So, you got to, denial, and then you have got people saying that he is carbon copy. SM (01:12:45): Well, I know if it was not for the (19)60s generation and the changes that happened, he had have never been elected. MD (01:12:50): Right. SM (01:12:51): Well, I just see him as another Ivy League elitist myself. MD (01:12:59): Well, I got to give him more time, but he cannot keep giving in. That is the only thing. If it means his election, then that is the way it is. The politicians, if they believe in something that they fight to the end, and if the vote voters throw them out, then they throw them out. But one of the, Senator Muskie said something interesting. His response to that question, because he was not well, he just gotten out of the hospital and he said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." He did not even comment about the (19)60s. And he went on to mention that over 400,000 men died in the war. Almost an entire generation passed away during that war. So, he talked about that the Civil War generation had not healed. So that is how he responded. And I think there's, what are your thoughts on that? You still have-have not healed since the Civil War? SM (01:13:57): I do not know. I think things were pretty unified after World War II. People were, it is pretty unified, and the center in American politics in an American culture was, it is certainly not where it is now. There was a lot more civility, and people, they had a shared, they just had a shared destiny that went on. And I think it got exacerbated during the (19)60s. I think the rise of the US as a global empire and all that that meant really kind of blew that out. MD (01:14:37): Did the college students play an important role in the war in Vietnam? And why did the war finally end, in your view? SM (01:14:45): I think college students played a huge role in ending the war. And I think it ended because it became obviously untenable. The internal contradictions just came to the surface, and it was bankrupting the country. And I think that it certainly had a huge role in ending the draft, which may have had consequences, too. I mean, now that college students do not have their lives on the line, they are less likely to speak out against the war. But I think what went on in the college campus was highly instrumental. I think all the demonstrations collectively helped lead to ending the war. And ultimately, and part of it was just a pure financial decision by the government. They just could not maintain it anymore. MD (01:15:47): It is interesting that the protests going on right now in California. I kind of admire the students because this is a pocketbook issue, just like the draft was an issue. And when they see something directly linked to them, and actually they are willing to pay a heavy price for their protests. So, I do not believe in the violence aspect, but I do, I admire them for speaking up and fighting 17 percent increases in tuition. One of the other issues that is very important is the issue of trust. I feel, my perception is that the Boomer generation is a generation that does not trust and did not trust for a lot of reasons, because so many of the leaders lied to them, whether it be Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin, whether it be Watergate with Richard Nixon. I remember even when Gerald Ford was going to pardon Richard Nixon, no one trusted him. They thought it was behind the scenes deal. Even Eisenhower lied on the U-2 incident. And even President Kennedy, they questioned whether he was involved in the coup to overthrow a Diem, even though he gave the order to do so. But he was really upset when he found out they were killed. Your thoughts on, you know being a student of that period that the Boomers did not trust university presidents, they did not trust governors, they did not trust politicians- SM (01:17:08): [inaudible]- MD (01:17:08): They did not trust anybody in the positions of leadership, no matter who they were. You think? This is a very negative quality for the generation, and have they passed this on to their kids and grandkids? And I preface this by saying that any good person who majors in political science is taught in political science 101 that not trusting your government is healthy because it is a sign that dissent is alive. SM (01:17:37): Yes. There is certain costs. When our basic trust was taken away from us by all those incidents over and over and over again, being lied to and misled, at one point, it is healthy because at least you are not naive. It gets you out of your naivete and gets you thinking more in the larger scale of things actually going on. I mean, that is how it worked with me. It was quite an eyeopener. And all of a sudden, I realized, wow, that does not make sense. That is not true, and that is not what ought to be happening. So, there is a positive aspect to it, but deep down, I would like to be able to trust more. But I think that wounded me. Probably I will go to my grave having doubts and distrust of people in positions of authority. And when I myself am put in position of authority, I am really-really-really careful. And that is another good part. I take those real seriously. MD (01:18:46): Were you influenced at all by the Beat generation, those writers in the late (19)50s, like Kerouac and Ginsburg? Because they were the precursors to the anti-establishment attitude of the (19)60s. Were they an influential at all on you? Did you read it or any of your friends read them? SM (01:19:03): Yeah, I did. Ginsburg, Kerouac, yeah, they were instrumental in my [inaudible]. There was kind of a, I do not know, as I got into my late teens, there was just a required reading list that you ended up reading, and they were part of that. But then I actually met and got to know a few of them, like Hugh Romney, Wavy Gravy. MD (01:19:30): Oh, you did? And you also knew Ken Kesey, did not you? SM (01:19:33): Yeah. I barely knew Ken, but I know Wavy from, I helped plan Rainbow Gathering. MD (01:19:39): Explain what that is. SM (01:19:41): Well, from about (19)71 to about (19)81, and Wavy was always involved in that. And so was Ram Dass. Ram Dass was another- MD (01:19:51): Yes. SM (01:19:52): ... good guy. He was an influence on me. And then of course, Ken is a friend of theirs. And... MD (01:20:00): Now what was, you helped organize this for 10 years? SM (01:20:03): Yeah, there is a whole crew of people that would get together and be the planning council and plan it for the year in advance and make sure everything worked. And then- MD (01:20:11): Where did it take place? SM (01:20:13): Well, they take place on National Forest Land every year on the 4th of July for a week. Called the Rain [inaudible]. A huge counterculture event. And still goes on. It's gotten huge, tens of thousands of people now. MD (01:20:32): Does it never come east? SM (01:20:33): Yeah, it has been in Michigan a couple times. MD (01:20:36): Oh, shoot. July 4th... When is the next one? SM (01:20:40): It will be this 4th of July. MD (01:20:42): I mean, where? Do you know where? SM (01:20:45): I am not sure where. You can go online, even have a website on it now. MD (01:20:48): And some of the people you worked with again were Wavy Gravy and Ram Dass? SM (01:20:53): Yeah, they were involved in the Rainbow Gathering. Wavy was the emcee for many years. MD (01:21:03): Oh my gosh. And Ram Dass, my God, his writings are so [inaudible]. SM (01:21:06): Yeah. And Ram Dass I got to note through that, plus Breitenbush Hot Springs out here in Oregon is an old hot springs resort that a group of friends of mine and I restored and run as a, it is an intentional community that Oregon allows you to have a worker-owner cooperative corporation. That and about 30,000 people a year coming at the- MD (01:21:31): Wow. SM (01:21:32): Kind of a conscious thing. You have everything from navel gazing exercises to workshops on massage and yoga. MD (01:21:39): Are they mostly Boomers or young? SM (01:21:42): Getting a lot younger, but- MD (01:21:47): Well, that is good. SM (01:21:47): Started out mostly boomers. It has a website too. Breitenbush, B-R-E-I-T-E-N-B-U-S-H. MD (01:21:53): Okay. I have got to check that out. SM (01:21:54): Yeah, you can check that out. Ram Dass is very good to us all along. He would come and hold big events there. 200 people would show up and they go on for a week. So yeah, I got the, basically, it is on the new age [inaudible] that I got to meet everybody. MD (01:22:16): Wow. SM (01:22:16): [inaudible]. MD (01:22:16): I have read quite a few of your articles. How did you get involved with Counterpunch? Because, and Alexander Cockburn, is he the kind of guy, I'd love to interview him. Would he be available for an interview, do you think? SM (01:22:28): He might, yeah. MD (01:22:28): How do you get ahold of him? SM (01:22:28): I will send you his email. MD (01:22:37): Okay. Yeah, because now I am reading those all the time. SM (01:22:39): Okay. MD (01:22:39): Because I find you are a very good writer, in my opinion. And I like the one you did on Carrie, and I like this one I just read recently where you talked about criminalizing dissent. SM (01:22:53): Yes. MD (01:22:54): Where you talked just briefly about, well, you had mentioned about the Wilderness Society of Sierra Club, but then you talked about the rat inflation. You compare COINTELPRO to what happened in the (19)60s to what is happening now with the environmental groups with Operation Backfire. SM (01:23:11): Yes. MD (01:23:12): And please explain that. Please, people that are reading this do not know a lot. So, you will be reading these interviews. First off, explain what COINTELPRO is in the (19)60s, and of course I know what it is. And then how you see the link between the environmental activists of today. SM (01:23:34): Okay. So COINTELPRO in the (19)60s was an FBI undercover operation where they were planting operatives in all the progressive movements of the day. And famously doing stuff like writing letters between the Black Panthers and other groups disparaging each other, phony letters. One of them led to a famous shootout at the UCLA campus, even. And they did stuff like that. They would plant this information, they would plant people who had snitched on people, and they would also plant agent provocateur. I know that some of the famous incidents were ROTC buildings were burned during the (19)60s, that those were actually agent provocateurs of the government that set those up and did those. MD (01:24:23): Think that was Kent State, too? SM (01:24:25): I do not know about Kent State, but I am pretty sure the University ROTC and the Michigan State University ROTC were agent provocateur led. MD (01:24:35): Okay. SM (01:24:35): There were always people that were trying to get people to be more radical, more violent, more this and that in order to dispute [inaudible] movement. And a lot of that came from within the government itself. And then now in honor days, we have an active radical environmental movement where people are willing to go out themselves with bulldozers, blockade roads, do whatever, to try to stop degradation of the environment. And then all of a sudden it took a little bit more of a violent wing and people started burning stuff down. And then when it came out, finally, and who was behind all this? There were agent provocateurs from the government involved. There were undercover officers from the government involved, egging people on, breaking them to do more violent stuff. And it just smacks with COINTELPRO. COINTELPRO also infiltrated the American Indian movement and famously planted the false information that Anna Mae Aquash was an informant, which got her killed, American Indian movement. So, I see a real similarity there that anytime anybody's advocating radical change that challenges the status quo and the financial interest of the government, the government is going to put undercover operatives in, and one of the things they do is to try to get people to, people are upset and they are angry and try to get them to do something crazy and more violent. MD (01:26:08): Well, I know they were involved in the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, and I think in some respects, even the women's movement. SM (01:26:17): Yeah, it is a way to sow dissent and bring movement down and get people, everybody looking over their shoulder and being suspicious of their comrades and other allies. MD (01:26:30): I was really, in reading some of the literature that the two most investigated people with the FBI files, well, actually there is three, but Martin Luther King- SM (01:26:44): I know one of them. MD (01:26:44): Huh? SM (01:26:44): I know one of them. MD (01:26:44): Martin Luther King, Jr. was one of them. Eleanor Roosevelt had the second largest FBI file. Can you believe that? SM (01:26:51): I can believe it. MD (01:26:53): And John Lennon. John Lennon had a big file. Those three I know are man of files. SM (01:26:59): My friend John Trudell has a 17,000 page [inaudible]. MD (01:27:03): He has a what? SM (01:27:04): 17,000 page FBI file. John Trudell. He was the chairman of the American Indian Movement. MD (01:27:10): Oh my God. SM (01:27:11): And he was involved when they took over Alcatraz. MD (01:27:13): Yeah. Let me change my tape here. Hold on one second. Yeah. One of the questions I have here, too, is the music of the period. Obviously, the music of the (19)60s and (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s was very influential because of the messages within the music. What was the most important music to you? And when you talk about the environmental movement of today, are they using music? Because music seems to be very important in sending messages. Just so I am talking about music from the (19)60s' influence on you, and then whether the movement is using music today. SM (01:28:06): Oh, huge influence on me. And of course, I still listen to the same music. I get accused by my younger friends never changing it. But yeah, Stevie Van Zandt gave a great speech last night at the inducting the Hollies into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. And he totally touched on that, the power of the music of the (19)60s. MD (01:28:28): That was in Cleveland, was not it? SM (01:28:36): I do not know where the- MD (01:28:36): Yeah, the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame is in Cleveland. SM (01:28:36): Yeah. I do not know where they hold the ceremony, but- MD (01:28:38): The Hollies- SM (01:28:39): ... I saw Jackson, Jackson was there. He was inducting David Geffen in, and then Iggy Pop got inducted, which is great. MD (01:28:49): Oh, that is great. SM (01:28:50): But yeah, the (19)60s movement music was... Growing up a kid in Flint, of course, Motown was the type of music I listened to growing up. And then all of a sudden, the stuff that, the song that shifted my perspective on music was For What It's Worth by Buffalo Springfield. And that really impacted me. MD (01:29:18): What was that song? The words? SM (01:29:20): Oh, the one. There is something happening here- MD (01:29:23): Oh- SM (01:29:23): ... exactly clear. MD (01:29:24): There is a man with a gun over here? SM (01:29:25): Yeah. MD (01:29:26): Yeah. That, okay. SM (01:29:26): Yeah, it was about protest down in LA that took place. So yeah, those guys impacted me immensely. And then Woodstock. It was a cultural, spiritual, and political event. I passed up on a ticket to go, I could have gone, but I never did. But it was an incredibly moving event. And so there was this cultural just flashpoint that took place, even though things were, it seemed like the darkest hour with leaders being assassinated and the war going on, there was this music that was speaking to a larger perspective, a commonality of humanity and how we could get through it all together and how we are all in it together. And it was a huge shift. It was not just a, oh, boy, girl, boy, girl, love you till the end. Oh, broke up, the stuff of... Marvin Gaye put out the album What's Going On. MD (01:30:30): Oh, yes. SM (01:30:30): It was staggering to me. Occasions of that. MD (01:30:34): 1971. SM (01:30:36): Yeah. And I mean, things were really shifting. Questions were being asked, and they were being asked by the best musicians of the day, too. So they were getting the airplay. Joni Mitchell, and there were some incredible musicians that were addressing the stuff that mattered to me. They were speaking the stuff that mattered to my generation and to me. MD (01:31:05): When you think of the period, there are often quotes or famous lines that were used that signified a period. I want you to react to something that I have been asking about the last 20 people. I did not do with some of the early ones. And that is that there are three, and then someone told me a fourth, there are three well lines that I think kind of exemplified the Boomers. The first one is Malcolm X, when he says, "by any means necessary," which kind of defines the militant activism, the black power, possibly the onset of violence. Then you got Bobby Kennedy's using Henry David Thoreau's quote, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." And that symbolizes the activist mentality, the questioning act that you talk about in the environment movement and elsewhere, that activists taking a stand on issues from justice and what they thought was right in our society or wrong in our society. And the third one was a Peter Max painting that most people had not heard this quote, but it was very popular on college campuses in 1971 when I was at Ohio State. And on the poster it said, "You do your thing. I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful," with symbolized a more kind of a hippie counterculture mentality. And the fourth one that was brought up to me was the civil rights, "we shall overcome." And then someone mentioned, John Kennedy's "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." Those are the kind of four, three, four five, that kind of symbolize the Boomer generation. Are there others that might have had an influence on you? Other quotes? SM (01:32:51): Oh, I like those quotes. John Kennedy had one that I really like, first. And that is that "War will be with us until the day when the conscientious objector has the same status as the hero," or something to that effect. And of course, he had some thereafter, but that was a great- MD (01:33:11): That was Robert Kennedy, right? SM (01:33:12): No, it was John Kennedy. MD (01:33:13): Oh, John Kennedy. SM (01:33:15): Yeah. MD (01:33:15): Okay, I did not know that one. SM (01:33:17): I will look that up and email that to you, too. MD (01:33:18): Okay. SM (01:33:19): Great quote. But yeah, I like all those quotes. By any means necessary one is a little threatening to me because I think people can justify all kinds of being- MD (01:33:30): Right. Then of course, Eisenhower had the military industrial complex, which was- SM (01:33:35): Right, that one. MD (01:33:36): That was right on too. There are pictures. Pictures are often say a thousand words. There is three that came to mind with me, but I am not going to mention them. When you see the pictures of the first say, 40 years of the Boomers' lives, what are the pictures that come to your mind that really, if someone were to look at them, they would say, yep, that was that era. SM (01:34:00): Oh, photos? MD (01:34:02): Yep. Pictures that were in the news. SM (01:34:05): Oh, I would probably say a real big one was pictures of the atomic bomb test in Bikini Atoll. There is the picture where the South Vietnamese officer executed the guy on the street. That really had a huge impact. And then, I do not know, for me, almost any of the pictures of Woodstock, especially the ones that of just people holding themselves together and going through that. Those are pictures that impacted me. MD (01:34:42): The three pictures that I had picked was the girl running down in Vietnam with a burn. SM (01:34:50): Oh, right. Yeah. MD (01:34:50): And then the girl over the dead body at Kent State. SM (01:34:53): Yeah, that is another one. MD (01:34:54): And then the three athletes in with the black power fist, Tommie Smith and John Carlos. SM (01:35:00): John Carlos, those guys are heroes. That really impacted me. MD (01:35:08): I have got some other things here. I am just trying to make sure, before I go into a section where I just ask your opinions on names and personalities. Make sure I got all my questions here. Robert Reagan, in 1980, when he came into power, he said, "We are back." And I think he was making a reference to, we are beyond the (19)60s and the (19)70s now and all that stuff. And the breakdown of the military. We're back. And then George Bush in 1989 when he became president, he said, "The Vietnam syndrome is over." And those were two Republican presidents back to back. Your thoughts on Reagan and Bush and their thoughts on, because now the Boomers are in their (19)40s, and just your thoughts on those two and what they said. SM (01:35:58): Well, I think that the Imperial presidency in the US's Empire was fully under underway when Reagan got elected. And so I just see them as basically the emperors that were Imperial policy. And so I think they felt the need that they needed to put to rest a lot of the issues that were raised by Vietnam. But I do not know, the Vietnam syndrome to me seems contrived. And I think the same stuff is still going on. Same Imperial overreach is going on, the same corporate takeover of the government. All that is happening. And I think they were trying to diffuse that, trying to push that aside and become more ascendant with the corporate Imperial stuff. MD (01:36:55): If you are a Boomer and you are in a conversation and we get involved in a confrontation in any part of the world, when you bring up the word Vietnam or the word quagmire, it seems to always get a reaction. And I get a feeling like, please shut up. We're living, the reaction I feel when I bring it up or others is, come on, this is the year 2010. Quit talking about something that happened back in 1975, Vietnam and the quagmire, that is past history. So I feel guilty, and I wonder how many other Boomers feel the same way. It is like we do not learn history's lessons, so if we bring up history, they do not want to be reminded of it. I do not... SM (01:37:40): Oh, I can understand why they would not want to be reminded of it. But to me, that is all the more reason why you need to bring it up more so that it is not lost and the lessons are not lost because the same mistakes are being made over and over again. So if you can, one good way not to learn from history is to suppress the history. And so, I think there is institutions that have a stake in suppressing it, so they have conditioned people that way. No, but I can understand why younger people might want to say, "Oh, I am tired of that. That happened way back then, and let us deal with what is going on now." But I also run into a lot of younger people that really want to know, they want to know more of the history. MD (01:38:25): Well, the millennial students are the ones in college now, and we did programs on bringing Boomers and Generation X together at my university in the (19)90s, and Generation Xers, I cannot speak for them all, obviously there are good ones. But they had problems with the Boomers in many ways. And of the two panels that we had made up of university and regional faculty members and the college students of Westchester is that they responded in two ways. Either I am sick and tired of hearing about what it was like then and quit talking about it and move on with your life. And the other ones would say, geez, I wish I had causes like you had. We do not have any causes or issues today. And that was the kind of reaction that Generation Xers had. And Generation Xers did not seem to get along too well with Boomers. I do not know if you have noticed that in your life. SM (01:39:24): Well, I think it might be that 15 percent, 85 percent lifting again, and basically in all generations there is going to be 15 percent that really do have an altruistic view and want to do something outside of self. And I find them, I have got a number of friends in their twenties now, close friends, partly through my association with Breitenbush, and I really like them. And they are, by and large, are the ones that are trying to expand their conscious and reach out and have a larger worldview. And so we have very much in common. I do not even feel like the age difference matters. MD (01:40:05): That is good. Could you talk- SM (01:40:06): I think it is just going to, there is going to be a percentage of every generation. It is just like I was honored in my life to know some people who were part of the original Red Scare that were called before the House on American Activities Committee. There was a certain percentage of people in that generation. So, I think every generation has, and then a lot of people are just, they do not want to rock the boat. The whole idea of rocking the boat and challenging the dominant paradigm is scary to them. So, they just assume not hear it. MD (01:40:41): Your- SM (01:40:42): One more thing, I can understand some of the antipathy toward the Baby Boomers because the Baby Boomers are now the bosses. They are the people that own, they're in charge of your job. So the younger people have to deal with that. And so that is always going to be a friction. And I do not think it relates specifically to Baby Boomer generation. It is just whenever you have an older generation and those kind of [inaudible] power, I think that that kind of disparity will always cause a little friction. MD (01:41:14): I think what has happened is that sometimes when the Generation Xers and who are now also in power, just like Boomers, they are also bosses now, too. If they are going to blame Boomers on things, they need to blame themselves, too, because they are now in leadership as well. Yeah, before I finish up here with these names, could you talk to how important it is for the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front, and to get a better understanding for people that read this, how important these activist groups are? I admire you for the comments that you have made, that you do not like terrorism and violence, and you have already brought that up into your articles because that often sends wrong messages, just like Black Panther Party and the Weathermen did in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Your thoughts on how important those two movements are today? SM (01:42:11): I think those movements are important in the fact that they are kind of like the gateway movement for getting more younger people involved. If there is a lot of passion in those movement, so a lot of younger people get involved. At the same time, I am appalled that there is some glorification of violence that goes on, and partly because I do not like violence, plus I challenge the efficacy of doing that, do not see how that ever works. But at the same time, they are important parts of the activist movement, certainly in the environmental movement. I understand the frustration of people in both those movements. I know some of the people, I know people that are in prison right now because they acted upon their beliefs there. They did not make the right choices. But I understand their position, and I think they are right. I think we have to get away from our anthropomorphic, anthropocentric viewpoint, I guess you would have to call it, yeah, anthropocentric viewpoint and look on the world as being one part of a larger hole. I think those are the people that are onto that. So yeah, I think it is a way for, I do not know, there is a lot of young people that are angry about looking at the future, the future of the Earth that is going to be here as they get older. MD (01:43:49): What are your thoughts of Al Gore and the Inconvenient Truth? SM (01:43:52): Well, part of me thinks that Al Gore's a profiteer profiteering on the corpse as it goes down with all his carbon cap and trade and carbon credits. I mean, buying carbon offsets to me is like the church in the Middle Ages selling indulgences. So, I do not particularly like that, and Al Gore is making a lot of money off of it, but I am completely in agreement that the level of carbon in the atmosphere is at a dangerously toxic level. And it is going to really change things if we do not get our act together and do something about it. So, I guess I like the message more than I like the messenger. MD (01:44:37): Yeah, because somebody says he flies in a private plane. I do not know. SM (01:44:41): Oh yeah, I know, he's cut to Utah. I mean, my friends Jeff St. Clair and Al Cockburn wrote a book called Al Gore: A User Manual back in 1998, and I think they nailed it. MD (01:44:55): I like his story, though, because as a Boomer, as a young man in Harvard, he was influenced by a professor. That is a very good start. SM (01:45:01): Yeah. MD (01:45:03): And I- MD (01:45:03): That is a very good story. And I also liked, from reading one of the books, about how he challenged President Clinton in a meeting after the second year. It was monumental, first time they had ever had friction, and where he told him, "You are doing absolutely nothing on the environment." And boy, he got mad. And of course, I do not think there is any love lost between those two now. SM (01:45:27): Yeah, I just kind of wish that he was not such a cartoon figure, because it allows the other side to discredit the message. And that he was not also making so much money off of it. In each case, it allows them to discredit the message. MD (01:45:45): Good points. SM (01:45:45): But yeah, I think he is right on. Level of carbon in the atmosphere is a huge, huge threat. It is a fact, existential threat. MD (01:45:52): I am at the part, which is the last part of the interview, which is just to respond to either terms, events, or personalities of a period. You do not have to go in any in depth. SM (01:46:03): Okay. MD (01:46:04): What do these mean to you? What does, again, the Vietnam Memorial mean to you? SM (01:46:14): It means to me, oh, I cannot even think about it without even crying. And I think it cost our generation enormous, Vietnam did. And the memorial is a huge step in trying to heal that. But... MD (01:46:32): What does Kent- SM (01:46:33): We lost a lot of really, really fine people, Vietnam. MD (01:46:38): Yes. We did, 58,000. And one of the things we learned from that war, too, is we must care about those on the other side, 3 million dead. SM (01:46:48): I know it. MD (01:46:48): That is very sad. What does Kent State and Jackson State mean to you? SM (01:46:53): Well, it means an end of innocence for me. That really shocked me out of my college jacket, intellectual, innocence, those events. MD (01:47:09): What does Watergate mean to you? SM (01:47:20): Oh, it means that it just shows how corrupt the government was. But at the same time, I think it was overplayed. I think Nixon committed far more crimes than that, far worse ones. That seemed to be the way that they could get him. MD (01:47:31): What does Woodstock and the Summer of Love, two different events, one in (19)67, one in (19)69. SM (01:47:37): Right, the Summer of Love. I had no idea that it even was going on, because I was in such a cocoon, back in school in Flint. MD (01:47:42): Right? SM (01:47:44): But when I look back on it, I see that that is a remarkable awakening in our culture. And I think Woodstock as well. I think those are incredible cultural events. Hopefully there is a future in a hundreds of years from now, people will be studying them. MD (01:48:00): What does the term counterculture mean to you? SM (01:48:05): Oh, it is a grab bag term that describes people that wanted to see something else other than the work working for the establishment as being your future. 2.3 kids, and a dog, in a house in the suburbs, there was an opportunity to do something else. MD (01:48:26): What do the hippies and yippies mean to you? SM (01:48:30): I think the hippies to me were less political than the yippies. The hippies were more the cultural wing of the movement, and the yippies were more of the political wing of the counterculture. I like both entities a lot. Hippies and the yippies. MD (01:48:58): What does SDS and The Weathermen, two separate things, even though they became one? SM (01:49:04): Right. Well, I think SDS was a remarkable organization. The founding principles were fabulous, and I think it really did shift the politics on the campuses around the country. I think The Weathermen was going a bit too far. I think The Weatherman, people just got so frustrated, and angry, and they went over the line. And I think that The Weathermen was a reason for the government to use the backlash against the counterculture. MD (01:49:40): How about the Vietnam veterans against the war? SM (01:49:44): Oh, one of the great organizations ever founded. Yeah. MD (01:49:51): How about the Young Americans for Freedom? I do not know if you knew that group. SM (01:49:54): Yeah, I know who they are. I actually caught a couple of their lectures at college. I knew, Rockwell, was that his name? MD (01:50:01): Yeah. SM (01:50:03): Yeah, he came to college when I was there, at the junior college, the community college. I thought they were rather racist, and elitist, and did not have much of a collective consciousness, that is for sure. Or a democratic consciousness. MD (01:50:24): How about the Black Panthers and Black Power? SM (01:50:29): I thought the whole Black Power Movement and the Black Panthers, they certainly had a point. But at the same time, once again, I think they went overboard. And being someone myself who was highly involved in Civil Rights Movement stuff, I think one of the out growths of the Black Panther, the militancy of it, was that people like myself who had the wrong color of skin were kind of driven out. And it became unsafe for me to be as involved as I had been. MD (01:51:03): What did you think of the enemy's list? SM (01:51:07): Oh, Nixon's enemies list? MD (01:51:07): Mm-hmm. SM (01:51:09): Oh, I figure that they always existed. I think they probably still do. And I think that it was an incredible evidence of the amount of paranoia that occurs in an empire. MD (01:51:28): How about My Lai? SM (01:51:28): My Lai? MD (01:51:28): Mm-hmm. SM (01:51:28): Oh, just awful. I do not know, one greatest injustices of all time. MD (01:51:37): Tet? SM (01:51:37): Ted? MD (01:51:40): Tet, T-E-T. SM (01:51:41): Oh, Tet. MD (01:51:42): That really began (19)68. SM (01:51:44): Right. Tet is very amazing to me, because it was a case where the National Liberation Front lost the battle and won the war. And it just showed me that all the other rules of wealth warfare did not apply anymore. MD (01:52:09): 1968, I think you already made comments on this. SM (01:52:12): Yeah, I think 1968 was, certainly in my lifetime, is the watershed year. MD (01:52:20): Okay. Now these are personalities, and again, just quick responses. Tom Hayden? SM (01:52:28): Are you hearing a buzz on the phone? MD (01:52:28): Yeah, I am. It could be the FBI. SM (01:52:30): Let me check. Let me try this other phone. (01:52:37): Hello? MD (01:52:38): Yeah, it is happening here too. SM (01:52:41): Oh, okay. It is in both phones. MD (01:52:42): It must be my phone. SM (01:52:43): Yeah, right? MD (01:52:44): Well, I am on the FBI's... I am not on their list. Tom Hayden? Still there? SM (01:52:54): Well, I just see him as a kind of a political gas line. MD (01:52:58): Jane Fonda? SM (01:53:00): Same thing. Yeah, I think that Jane Fonda had a lot of good things to say. And I think she has been unfairly excoriated. MD (01:53:13): John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy? SM (01:53:17): I think they were our last hope. Last great hope. They were, what are the Gracchi Brothers of America. MD (01:53:26): Eugene McCarthy? SM (01:53:29): Oh, I like Eugene McCarthy a lot. I think he had a lot of courage, and I kind of wish he would have stuck it out more. MD (01:53:36): George McGovern? SM (01:53:38): Same thing. I do not know what happened. They stood up for all the right principles and then disappeared. MD (01:53:44): Sargent Shriver and the Peace Corps. SM (01:53:47): Oh, I think the Peace Corps and other great society programs are one of the greatest contributions we have ever made. It is unfortunate it only head start in the Peace Corps and the Job Corps bill exist, but I think all of them collectively were one of the great social justice experiments ever. MD (01:54:03): Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X? SM (01:54:08): Both great leaders. Martin Luther King, Jr. might be the greatest leader in my lifetime that I have known or heard about. Malcolm X, again, I had problems with his religious bent and his militant bent. Other than that, I think he was a great leader as well. Incredible points. I read his autobiography and I was very moved by it. MD (01:54:38): Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford? SM (01:54:43): Oh, Ronald Reagan, I see him as kind of the solidifier of the end of the US being a democratic republic and moving on to being a corporate empire. So, I do not have a lot good for Ronald Reagan. Though even some of his stuff. One of the greatest quotes of all time, I think is his quote, "Trust, but verify." MD (01:55:06): Oh yeah. SM (01:55:07): I totally buy that. I think it is of the great quotes. But Gerald Ford, I have softened a lot on Gerald Ford over time. I actually think Gerald Ford was a good guy. MD (01:55:19): How about Jimmy Carter and Dwight Eisenhower? SM (01:55:27): I like Jimmy Carter. And I like him a lot more as an Ex-president than I did as President. I think he is a great role model. Dwight Eisenhower, another one. The guy was a hero, and he also was willing to take on some of the powers to be. And at the same time, he was part of the whole power structure. But I think Eisenhower was okay. MD (01:55:54): Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew? SM (01:55:57): Oh, okay. Well, Spiro Agnew, I have hardly anything good to say about. I think the guy was a crackpot. But Richard Nixon, mixed bag. I think he is the greatest environmental President. He basically saved more land than any other President. Cast far more environmental laws than any other President. I signed them. At the same time, he was a war criminal and a paranoid war criminal at that. MD (01:56:25): Then of course, LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? SM (01:56:29): Okay. LBJ, socially maybe certainly the greatest President of my lifetime, as far as comes the social causes and getting that part right. At the same time, undone by the war in his inability to control the Pentagon. Hubert Humphrey, part of me sees him as a political hack. Was it Hunter Thompson said he had the greatest case of blue balls for the presidency ever? MD (01:57:04): Yeah. SM (01:57:04): I think he would have done anything just to get elected. I worked for him when he was running. Because while he was the only one running. By that time, in (19)68. And I was just real disappointed when he lost. MD (01:57:16): If he had gone another week, he probably would have won. Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the yippies? SM (01:57:24): Oh, a mixed bag. I like them bringing a lot of stuff to the forefront, but I think they were pretty relentless self-promoters. And that eventually detracted from the message. MD (01:57:38): Chicago Eight or Chicago Seven? SM (01:57:41): Yeah, Chicago Eight, that had a big impact on my life. I think all those people were incredibly well-meaning, incredibly good people. They were on the right side. They did everything right, and the government trying to destroy them the way they did was, it focused our generation, or at least the activist part of it. MD (01:58:04): How about the women leaders, Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, that group. Shirley Chisholm was in there too. SM (01:58:12): Yeah, there were a lot of great women leaders at that time. Same, has kind of a checkered little history there, being lovers with all these rich, wealthy men, and possibly some ties with the CIA. But the rest of them, I really liked. Betty Friedan was great. Germaine Greer, there were a number of women leaders that, I read their stuff and I really agree with it. Still do. MD (01:58:37): How about the Black Panther individuals, because there unique? There's Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, H. Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael, David Hilliard, and the one that was killed in Chicago, I think it was Norman? SM (01:58:55): Fred Hampton. MD (01:58:55): Fred Hampton. All different and unique. SM (01:58:58): Yeah, some of the Panthers were tireless, self-promoters. And some of them never could get out of the street, like Huey Newton and Cleaver. They kind of became cartoons. But a lot of them were real well-intentioned people, and set up some really good programs, and really helped out. MD (01:59:18): How about- SM (01:59:21): Same bag. You had your mix of self-promoters and people that were really solid on the issues. MD (01:59:27): Communes? SM (01:59:29): Oh, I think the commune movement is one of our better experiments. I was part of the whole Back to the Land movement. Of course, Breitenbush Hot Springs was an intentional community and still going strong. MD (01:59:43): How do you relate to people who say it was a bunch of dropouts, that they went from being we to nothing but me? So that is a criticism of the communal movement. SM (01:59:59): Yeah, I would say there is a certain amount of self-absorption and me first stuff that goes on in the communal movement. But to me, just the fact that people are willing to take the challenge, and take the risks, and try to find something that might work better, is just the experiment itself has value. Whether people stick it out or do not stick it out, I think it is a huge part of the landscape and a huge part of what happened. And I am glad it happened, glad it is still going on. Certainly, it is less than it was. And at Breitenbush Hot Springs, in the (19)80s, we used to have communities conferences, where once a year we would get people from all the various communes in the northwest together, and come and make it... It was a great event. MD (02:00:43): The male liberation movement came out of that too, did not it? SM (02:00:46): The what? MD (02:00:47): The male liberation movement came out of that in the early (19)70s. SM (02:00:50): Oh, the male? MD (02:00:51): Yeah, where men would start taking care of the kids more as a shared. SM (02:00:56): Yeah. Yeah, that is true. In our early days, we required all parents to do a childcare shift a week with all the kids. We did all that, yeah. MD (02:01:05): Yeah. Dr. Benjamin Spock. SM (02:01:09): Oh, Dr. Spock was a great hero. And then, I do not know so much about his childcare rearing books and techniques, but just the fact that he was so forceful on the war, and social justice causes, to me, makes him one of the all-time heroes. MD (02:01:25): How about Daniel and Philip Berrigan? SM (02:01:29): Oh, two of the heroes for me, for sure. MD (02:01:31): I met them both and knew them both. SM (02:01:33): Wow. Way to Go. Being a Catholic boy and stuff, it was always great to have that wing of the church represented. And they did it more eloquently, and they were willing to put their own selves on the line more than almost anybody ever saw. Just a great model of passivism. MD (02:01:52): Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers? SM (02:01:55): Oh, that was one of the most heroic acts of all time. MD (02:02:02): Woodward and Bernstein? SM (02:02:07): I like what they did. I am not so sure over time that they themselves stand the test of time. MD (02:02:14): Does not seem like we have the investigative journalists anymore. SM (02:02:17): Yeah. MD (02:02:18): The original seven astronauts? SM (02:02:20): Well, I do not know, I never quite got into that much. Obviously, they were pretty heroic. And right there, and some of them use the opportunity to speak about the earth and then the fragility of the planet. And I really like that about them. MD (02:02:42): Robert McNamara and John Dean, two different people. SM (02:02:47): Oh, I think John Dean is the hero. And I think he still is. Robert McNamara, I think he is one of the great war criminals and economic criminals in history. MD (02:03:00): Jackie Robinson and Muhammad Ali? SM (02:03:05): Oh, two of the great towards and social people of all time. Muhammad Ali might be one of the greatest people of our generation. Certainly you go around the world and everybody knows who he is. And he is highly respected. Probably he and Bob Marley are the only two people like that. MD (02:03:24): How about Bill Clinton and George Bush II? SM (02:03:33): I think both of them collectively brought an enormous amount of disrepute on the Baby Boomer Generation. I am embarrassed that they're the first two Baby Boomer Presidents. MD (02:03:43): Explain that. SM (02:03:47): I feel that both of them are examples of what the worst of what we were talking about, the first aspects of the Baby Boomer Generation. They were in it for personal gain and expediency, and they just did not share the deep-seated values of the generation. MD (02:04:11): How about Angela Davis and Timothy Leary? SM (02:04:20): I got mixed feelings on both of them. I think Angela Davis did a lot of stuff, but I think she flirted too much with the violence that was going on, and bought into that. Leary, some of Leary's stuff is brilliant. I think he might be one of the smartest people in his generation. I read stuff that he wrote that was absolutely brilliant. And at the same times I have got all sorts of problems with the way he died and all the things around that. I think that was out of line. MD (02:04:50): How about Attica and certainly George Jackson who was linked to Angela Davis in the prison reform movement? Prison rights. SM (02:05:00): Yeah, I think that prison rights needed to happen, and it is a tragedy that the way it happened with Attica. And I think that the government incredibly overreacted and a lot of people died, both guard and prisoners, that did not need to happen. But it did focus on the whole thing on the prison movement. I think that issue has been put on a back burner and it is nowhere near resolved. MD (02:05:25): A lot of people think George Jackson was set up. SM (02:05:29): Yeah. MD (02:05:30): And he was murdered right there, or killed right there in the prison. John Lennon and the Beatles? I separate John Lennon from the rest of the Beatles, but John Lennon himself, and then the Beatles? SM (02:05:46): Well, I think John Lennon is a hero. The guy never backed down in his quest for promoting peace on the planet. Yeah, peace and love, and a lot of good things that came about because of John Lennon, the music and the way he lived his life. The Beatles themselves, obviously phenomenal, great musicians. And they were some of the first that took it from the boy meets girl, the love forever, into actually speaking about social causes that mattered. And I will always respect them for that. MD (02:06:28): How about Barry Goldwater and William Buckley? SM (02:06:33): Oh, they are two of the conservatives that I would actually listen to. I think they had a lot of integrity, and they could speak intelligently, and they were not just out there fanning the flames of fear, which is what I see the conservative movement has evolved into. MD (02:06:51): The Little Rock Nine? SM (02:06:55): Oh, you mean the students that were? MD (02:06:58): Yeah, the high school. SM (02:07:01): Oh yeah, they are great heroes. Without a doubt. No doubt about it, that took an enormous amount of courage. MD (02:07:08): How about the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley in the (19)60s? SM (02:07:15): I am glad it happened. I do not know a whole lot about it. I think it jump started the whole questioning of authority and challenging things. MD (02:07:25): And then of course, the Port Heron Statement, which was the... SM (02:07:28): Right. That is, when I was talking about, yes-yes. If you read that, there is some brilliant stuff in there. That was a brilliant manifesto. MD (02:07:37): And we were talking about the American Indian Movement, and I have not said this to too many people, but when they took over Alcatraz and the Wounded Knee Incident, those were two major events in that (19)69 to (19)73 period. Just your thoughts on that? SM (02:07:54): Well, I think their taking over Alcatraz was a brilliant move. And at the time they did it, it was because they were basically delisting tribes. They were taking away their status, did not exist anymore. And they were able, because of the taking over Alcatraz, got so much attention. And then they did the Longest March, where the American RCC took over the Bureau of Indian Affairs headquarters. And they were able to roll back all of that. And tribes were re-certified. And there was a number of anti-native pieces of legislation that were going on. And all of them got defeated after Alcatraz. The Wounded Knee Incident, I think it was a mistake. I think that when people left the BIA headquarters in DC and went to Wounded Knee, I agree with John Trudel, that it was not a surprise move because it was out in the hinterlands, and the media was not there, and they were not able to control the media, and it was just a disaster waiting to happen. At the same time, it brought massive attention to the inequities on the reservation. But it really did not stop the killings of natives there. That is why they started it. In a way, it was not effective in what it set out to do. MD (02:09:16): When the best history books are written, or the sociology books, or once long after the last Boomer has passed away, what do you think historians and writers will say about this period? Because they did not live it. They study it, but they did not live it. SM (02:09:40): Right. I would say that it will be seen as a shift in consciousness, that it was clearly an attempt to take on a more expanded global consciousness among all cultures on the planet. Planetary consciousness shift. I think they will see it as that. And that well-meaning people really tried to roll back the negative impact of our society. And I guess by definition that means they will have succeeded some, if there is a future with historians. MD (02:10:14): Well, one of the great pictures of this period was the picture of Planet Earth. SM (02:10:20): Yes. MD (02:10:21): From the space capsule. And when college students, say a hundred years from now, when we are all gone, look at that picture as one of the pictures from the (19)60s, and they read all this stuff about coming together, and fighting for people's rights, and the sense of community. And then all they hear about are the divisions, will they look at that picture and say... Because the astronauts said that if you look at Planet Earth, we are all in this together. That the Boomer Generation did not understand that in the end. Do you think people will be that critical? SM (02:11:01): Well, I think that if there is people a hundred years from now and they can look at that picture, that will mean that we did succeed. MD (02:11:05): Very good. Very, very good. Is there any question that I did not ask you that you thought I might ask you? SM (02:11:16): No, you covered a lot pretty well. Yeah. I guess the one question is writers, you talked about the people. MD (02:11:26): Oh, yeah. Well, I did not... Yeah, the writers, but also the books. SM (02:11:32): Yeah. MD (02:11:32): Most influential writers. I got so many questions here. Who are the most influential writers and books that you read when you were young? SM (02:11:41): Oh. MD (02:11:41): And throughout your life? SM (02:11:45): And throughout my life. Yeah. MD (02:11:48): And let me change the side of my- Okay. SM (02:12:01): Well, Ken Kesey was a real instrumental writer, and my influential writer. Rom Dass, influencer writer, we talked about them. MD (02:12:09): What did Rom Dass say that was so important? And what did Kesey say that was important to you? SM (02:12:15): Kesey, in his book, Sometimes a Great Notion, basically, he shows how all these tragedies befall this family because they put their individual family above the common good. And that had a big message to me. His other famous book, Cuckoo's Nest, really took apart the thing of the benign institution, where this may hurt, but it's for your own good. How there's a certain maliciousness in that. And brought that out. And I like that about his books a lot. Rom Dass, in his book Be Here, Now was able to show me the connection between what all various spiritual traditions of the past, the connections between what they were saying and how they actually met the same things here and there. And that really helped. MD (02:13:23): What was the name of that book? SM (02:13:24): Be Here Now. MD (02:13:25): Be Here Now. SM (02:13:26): Yeah. MD (02:13:27): Okay. SM (02:13:29): That had a huge impact on me when I was in college. Other books that I read that mattered. There's the classic, On the Road, by Kerouac. There's various books like that, that mattered. And I like a lot of fiction too, with the Kesey books and various other pieces of fiction. Isaac Asimov's Foundation Trilogy gave me a real political perspective on what's going on. Arthur Clarke, he had Childhood's End. MD (02:14:06): Oh yeah. SM (02:14:07): Another great book that really impacted me. Yeah, things like that. Hunter Thompson, Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, and Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail. Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail's, one of the best political books I have ever read. MD (02:14:22): Did you ever read Greening of America by Charles Reich? SM (02:14:24): Yes. MD (02:14:25): That was a great book, yeah? SM (02:14:26): That was a really good, that was an excellent book. MD (02:14:28): And then The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. That was another good one. SM (02:14:33): Yes. MD (02:14:34): And I think another one that was very popular was that Love Story by Eric Siegel. SM (02:14:42): I did not like that book. MD (02:14:42): Yeah, he just passed away recently. SM (02:14:44): Yeah. MD (02:14:45): Any other books? Any other writers? Any poets? Any... SM (02:14:49): Oh God, I cannot even off the top of my head. I cannot remember. There is a lot of them. MD (02:14:55): Of all the environmental people that you have been connected to in your life, you already said that Rachel Carson was. SM (02:15:03): Yeah. MD (02:15:05): But who are the environmental people that you just truly admire? SM (02:15:12): Well, David Brower. I cannot say enough about David Brower. MD (02:15:16): And what is his position and title? SM (02:15:18): Well, he was the first Executive Director of the Sierra Club. MD (02:15:22): Okay. SM (02:15:22): He got drummed out of the Sierra Club for being too radical. And then he founded the Friends of the Earth. And then he founded the Earth Island Institute. He was just an uncompromising, amazing character. He was a World War II hero, because he invented all these types of mountain climbing, trained all these troops on how to do it. Climbed most of the western mountains first in the United States. And he died about 10 years ago. He was about 90 when he died. Phenomenal guy. And then I actually had, a guy who is not that well-known home, Homer Roberts, who was the founder of the Michigan Audubon Society, and who was involved in the efforts to save the bald eagle, and the Kirtland's warbler, and so on. And he was the guy that first taught me about ecosystems before I ever even heard of the word. I wonder what is going on with my phone. MD (02:16:21): Ah, yeah, there you go. SM (02:16:23): Anyway. MD (02:16:25): All right. SM (02:16:26): Those are the early environmentalists that really impacted me. MD (02:16:30): Well, that is my last question. I will turn my tape- (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Michael Donnelly Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Donnelly, Michael ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Environmentalists; Authors, American--20th century; Indigenous peoples--United States; Donnelly, Michael--Interviews Description An account of the resource Michael Donnelly is an environmental activist, author, and one of the founders of Friends of Opal Creek. Donnelly has been writing on environmental issues and stories focused on Native American and indigenous peoples in the northwest. He is a member of the American Indian Movement. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-03-16 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.184a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.184b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 136:34 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ed1243d74a2a378dfc0961e886c47372.jpg 2f1ab9748fccaf576b88fab0c04bf250 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/ecfb3db1eb4146ec9b8acb072139c113.mp3 960bb9fd7af44df301a42a5c56dfffd7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2002-07-14 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Kenneth Campbell Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Biographical Text Dr. Kenneth Campbell is a scholar, reseacher and political scientist. Dr. Campbell is a Associate Professor Emeritus of Political Science and International Relations at Universtiy of Delaware, and he is the author for several journal articles and a book titled <em>A Tale of Two Quagmires: Iraq, Vietnam and the Hard Lessons of War</em>. He has a Bachelor's degree in History, as well as a Master's degree and Ph.D. in Political Science from Temple University.&nbsp; Dr. Campbell served in Vietnam during the Vietnam War in 1968 and 1969 and received a Purple Heart for his bravery. Due to his expertise in international affairs, he has testified before Congress on the Iraq War. Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Civil Rights Movement, Anti-War Movement, Women's liberation; Baby boom generation; Jane Fonda; Vietnam; Lyndon B. Johnson; David Cortright; Increased use of drugs in the military; Resistance to draft; Vietnamese interrogation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Vietnam War; Civil Rights Movement, Anti-War Movement, Women's liberation; Baby boom generation; Jane Fonda; Vietnam; Lyndon B. Johnson; David Cortright; Increased use of drugs in the military; Resistance to draft; Vietnamese interrogation.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 163:15 Subject LCSH Political scientists; College teachers; University of Delaware; Campbell, Kenneth--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Nancy Cain Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 14 July 2002 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:03): Okay, here we go. When you think of the (19)60s and the early (19)70s, what is the first thing that comes to your mind? KC (00:00:13): The (19)60s and early (19)70s. Well, I guess it has to be Vietnam if you are going to cover that entire period. The (19)60s growing up, but the (19)70s, and my Vietnam experience being really the division between my childhood and my family and my neighborhood and growing up. And me then going off to becoming an adult and having a much different life, leaving family, leaving home. SM (00:00:46): When you think of the (19)60s overall, because you are coming from not only growing up in the era but serving your country in that era, do you see a difference between the two in your perspective of that era? KC (00:00:59): The difference between the (19)60s and the (19)70s? SM (00:01:01): (19)60s, yeah. Well, the difference between if you had not served- KC (00:01:06): Oh. SM (00:01:06): ... and serving your country during that timeframe. KC (00:01:09): Well, I cannot accurately imagine not having done that because I did do that. I mean, I guess that I would have been quite different if I had not done that, but I think that it was because I am who I am that I did. I volunteered. I was not plucked out of my life. I do not think that there was any question that I was going to go in the military in some way. As to which branch and at what time under what conditions, those are particulars that I think that I could have played with. But I felt strongly that it was necessary for me to not only serve in that sense of civic duty, but also to use it as a vehicle to grow up, to give myself more opportunities to mature so that I felt that I was going to get a lot out of it, not only give a lot. SM (00:02:23): What do you think of those individuals who did not serve? KC (00:02:28): That did not serve? SM (00:02:30): That did not serve during that timeframe, with particular emphasis on those that could have served but used deferments or any other alternative to get out of service? KC (00:02:42): I do not have a problem with those who used whatever devices they could to get out of serving if they had political or religious or moral objections to the military, in general, or to the war, in particular. That, I think, is a defensible position personally, ethically, defensible position to take. But those who either had no feelings one way or another about the war and about military service, and especially those who supported it, but then found ways of getting out of it themselves, I have problems with. I think that it is dishonorable to avoid your general civic duty, and particularly dishonorable to support someone else going off to die in your place. SM (00:03:39): How do you respond to historians or social critics or sociologists who say that the Vietnam War, and the people that served in the Vietnam War, were basically from working class, lower class backgrounds. They were thrust into it. The upper classes really did not serve, or many of the people that would have gone to college did not serve. Is that a description of the military of that era? KC (00:04:07): Well, it certainly seems like an accurate description of the Marine Corps that I experienced. If we are talking about my personal experience, I was in the Marines and enlisted. Not an officer, I was an enlisted person. And the description of working class, lower middle class, rural, poor, farmer, that is accurate regarding the enlisted people in the Marine Corps at the time I was in there. SM (00:04:50): Getting back to some of the criticisms over the last 5, 10, 15 years on television network shows, you will see people, like Newt Gingrich and George Will and many others, saying that the generation, the boomer generation, the people that were young in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, and when I say (19)70s, a lot of people defined the (19)60s going up to 1973. KC (00:05:15): Right. SM (00:05:15): And so, including those individuals, they think that one of the great reasons we are having problems in our society today is because of that generation with the sexual revolution that took place during that time. As I put down here, "The boomer generation of the (19)60s and early (19)70s is being attacked as one of the reasons for the breakdown of American society." Could you respond to this criticism and comment on the period and its impact on present day America? Is the criticism fair? And when this criticism is often directed to the youth of the year, what can you say about the boomers of the (19)60s and early (19)70s as a generation of 70 million? KC (00:05:58): I guess I would have to, first, address the description of the time as being the breakdown, or leading to the breakdown, of American society. I do not think American society has broken down very often in its history. You have to talk about questions of degree, not kind here, for the most part. Certainly, it was under great stress during the (19)60s and early (19)70s, but it did not completely break down. I would define breaking down as actual civil war. And although there were incidents that looked like civil war at times, whether it was a demonstration that got out of hand or an isolated pseudo revolutionary group uprising from the left, whatever, I think, by and large, American society, under great tension, basically held together during that period of time and after. But to address what, I think, is at the heart of that criticism, that the boomer generation is responsible for a lot of the social problems and political problems, and to some degree economic problems, of the (19)70s and (19)80s and (19)90s, and perhaps now, I think that that is horse hockey. Every generation is neither perfect nor completely worthless, and every generation has to take responsibility for some of the problems that follow it. But that does not make that generation any better or worse than the previous or following generation. I think there were, certainly, a lot of committed people, a lot of boomers committed to change, and good change, but there are also a heck of a lot of boomers that, despite what they say today, were not really involved in that change at the time. There is certainly a lot of anti-war stories told- SM (00:08:10): It never happened. KC (00:08:12): ... and exaggeration today, what did I do in the anti-war movement, as much as there are veterans who tell stories, although they never got near any combat. I think it is just a human tendency to want to exaggerate one's importance. From my experience in leadership positions in the anti-war movement of that time, I know how hard it was to get more than a small percentage of people active in the anti-war movement, or any movement at that time, whether it was community movements, student movements, movements against apartheid, or whatever was around at that time, to get more than a handful of people involved, more than a small percentage of people involved. So, I would not credit the boomer generation as a whole with a whole lot of that, and I would not blame the boomer generation as whole for a whole lot of that. I think the so-called damage done is exaggerated, but so are the accomplishments. The accomplishments, I think, sometimes are exaggerated by the historians on the left. I think what was accomplished was great, and through a lot of difficult struggle and sacrifice on the part of some leaders, but the whole generation, certainly. Not even a majority of the generation was involved and had anything to do with that. SM (00:09:50): Good point. Because you read about this era, and they will say that of the 70 plus million that were in the boomer generation, again, the boomers are defined by years. KC (00:10:02): Right. SM (00:10:03): I have a problem with that, too. They say Boomers are (19)46 to (19)64, and now a more recent study by Howe and Strauss- KC (00:10:09): 1946 to (19)64. SM (00:10:10): Yes, 1964. Yeah. KC (00:10:12): As opposed to an age. SM (00:10:13): Yeah, 1946 to 1964. But now, Howe and Strauss have just written a book on the current youth, which is the millennials, who states that the boomers were 1943 to 1961. And if you read earlier books on this period, a lot of the people who were born between (19)42 and (19)46 were upset because many of them were in the lead of the anti-war movement. KC (00:10:37): Yeah. Yeah. SM (00:10:37): So, what I am getting at here, really, the question is this. Another way that people have lessened the impact on boomers is to say that only 15 percent were really involved. KC (00:10:48): There you go. SM (00:10:49): And would you say that is true? KC (00:10:51): I would say that is very true. And I make the same point in my book about Vietnam veterans in combat, that are only 15 percent, and that is probably exaggerated, it is probably smaller than that, were involved in any sustained combat in Vietnam. Few people realize that, whether they are for or against a war, whether they are arguing for veterans’ rights, or just simply trying to study it objectively, few people realize that only 10 to 15 percent of all Vietnam veterans saw any significant combat. Now, that has an impact. That has an importance in certain areas- SM (00:11:32): Right. KC (00:11:33): ... and I will not go into all of that right now, but that is an important figure for people to understand. And as late as two years ago, in 2005, when I got together with some old anti-war hands, some of them which were non-veterans, one of them, when I gave that figure at a public forum, came up to me and said that she was shocked, that she had been around for 40 years in the movement and working in the anti-war movement back in the (19)60s, et cetera. And she never knew that. No one ever said that. No one ever told her that. That that gave her a better appreciation of the intensity of the experience of combat veterans and the isolation that combat veterans feel, even among veterans as a whole. SM (00:12:18): Are we talking here, maybe, about 400,000 Vietnam vets who actually were in combat of the three plus million? KC (00:12:25): Well, I need a calculator. SM (00:12:28): Yeah-yeah. KC (00:12:28): I am not that great at mathematics. SM (00:12:30): Right. KC (00:12:30): But whatever it turns out to be, between 10 and 15 percent- SM (00:12:35): Right. KC (00:12:35): ... because the so-called tail to tooth ratio, meaning those who were in support versus the tip of the spear, or the tooth of the war machine, was six to one. Six people in support for every person out in the bush with a rifle, and that is less than 15 percent. SM (00:12:54): Right. KC (00:12:55): And I have been told by folks who study this even more closely that 14 or 15 percent is still too high. SM (00:13:00): Wow. KC (00:13:01): That when you start subtracting people, like the clerks that worked in the combat units who were back in the rear with the typewriters, and you start doing all sorts of other calculations, it turns out to be closer to about 10 or 12 percent. But I still go with 15 just to be safe. SM (00:13:18): Yeah. Obviously, being down at the Vietnam Memorial on Memorial Day and Veterans Day, the people that are on that stage are the people that are in that 14 to 15 percent, obviously. Yeah. KC (00:13:28): I do not know. You find a lot of them there. Some of them are the most committed. But there are a lot of folks who, well, let us put it this way, a lot of Vietnam veterans that I would look critically at that take strong political positions on various issues, putting forth their experience in the war as their credibility, that really did not experience much or any war. SM (00:14:02): You hear that a lot from Chuck Hagel. KC (00:14:03): Is that right? SM (00:14:04): Yeah. KC (00:14:04): Yeah. I would not be surprised. Chuck Hagel is one of my favorite guys. SM (00:14:07): Yeah. He and his brother, and they did serve. KC (00:14:10): Yeah. SM (00:14:10): And I like him too. Yeah, some people would say, "Well, when is he going to run for president?" I do not think he is going to run. I think he's going to stay in the Senate. When you look at the characteristics, could you give some of the positive qualities, just some adjectives to describe the boomer generation in your eyes? And some of the negative qualities? KC (00:14:27): Yeah. I would say innovative in the sense that boomers thought outside the World War II depression experience. Not having that experience, we were able to think outside the box, so to speak. And imagine a world where, perhaps, you did not have segregation, racial segregation. Perhaps, where you did not simply go off to serve and fight for your country because someone in authority said it was necessary to do. Dared to question authority. Asked critical questions. As an educator, I think of that generic quality that we try to develop in students of critical thinking, being able to see contradictions, complexity, variation, nuances. And I think that politically, socially, that the boomer generation, especially those who were in the leadership on contentious issues, were able to have that kind of imagination. Now, it is not to say that the previous generation did not have that imagination, because the previous generation, certainly, was able to imagine well, in at least leadership, in many cases, how to deal with the depression, how to look beyond the state that did not provide relief, that did not provide welfare, that to be innovative when it came time to fighting a war that was necessary under very adverse conditions. But I think the boomer generation had its most impact for its domestic reforms, the civil rights movement and the anti-war movement, which was certainly focused at home. I mean, it was focused on a war, but it was focused on changing the system at home and finding out what was wrong with America that got us in there. And the women's movement. SM (00:16:55): Right. I guess you could include in there the environmental movement, too. KC (00:16:59): And the environmental. SM (00:17:00): Yeah. KC (00:17:00): Very good. The environmental movement, since were sitting here in a nice environment. SM (00:17:03): Yeah. And some of the other movements you think of in that era, you think of the Native American movement- KC (00:17:08): Sure. SM (00:17:08): ... and the Chicano movement, too, as well. To get off the order of questions here, the civil rights movement and the practice of nonviolence and the methods used by people in those movements were forerunners to the anti-war movement. Do you think that all these other movements, their teacher was the civil rights movement? I have read that in history books, that the anti-war, women's movement, all the other movements you just mentioned were learned from the civil rights movement. KC (00:17:43): Well, I think a lot was learned from the civil rights movement. I think a lot was learned from the labor movement during the thirties, as well. Twenties and thirties, but the thirties in particular. Peaceful ways of protesting health and safety conditions or inadequate pay or the right to unionize, not having the right to unionize. A lot of ideas and experience were transferred by older folks who lived and worked through those eras, the twenties and thirties and forties, to not only the anti-war movement, but other movements, as well, community movements, et cetera. I remember Saul Alinsky- SM (00:18:43): Oh, yeah. Rules for radicals. KC (00:18:45): Rules for Radicals, Reveille for Radicals, he had established some kind of an institute in Chicago to train leaders on the left, or not on the left. He was not looking for left or right, but just people who were interested in grassroots democracy. And so, there are important links back to earlier generations and earlier movements. But there was a lot of innovation, as well. A lot of thinking beyond that or differently from that came out of the boomer leaders themselves, the generation themselves. A lot was learned from the civil rights movement. But I think there was, also, something that was very American about the anti-war movement in the sense that there is an understanding among many, if not most, organizers in the Vietnam anti-war movement, that the system probably worked well enough, on most days, for most people, that you were better off not using violent forms of protests. That it was unnecessary and, in fact, counterproductive to use violent forms of protest. So, that nonviolence was for a principle that maybe they built their whole life around it. Quakers or Passivists, like Martin Luther King. SM (00:20:25): Right. KC (00:20:25): But for others it was a tactic. It was something that worked better than violence. But if they had lived under a regime, like the Nazis, they might be using violence because they might give up on the idea of peaceful change. SM (00:20:41): Yeah. Right. KC (00:20:42): So, I think that the structural conditions in America, the fact that America was the way it was with a constitution and a long history of rule of law, et cetera, was a major factor, if not a defining factor, for most people in the anti-war movement. Because most people in the anti-war movement were not out-and-out passivists in the sense of never using violence, pure passivists. We're not the kind of people who would have refused to go to war during World War II. SM (00:21:10): Like Bayard Rustin. KC (00:21:12): Right. SM (00:21:12): Yep. KC (00:21:15): Right, right. So, I think that is an important factor, as well. Part of its civil rights experience and leadership, part of it, earlier struggles, but also part of it, the structural context in which all of us was occurring. America as, basically, a law-abiding country, and it is people recognizing that there are non-violent ways of achieving your ends. And if you choose not to use those, then you are probably at least as bad as what you are protesting against, if not worse. SM (00:21:44): Right. Yeah, I think, on college campuses, in particular, I think one of the lessons learned is that protest is still important, and a lot of people think it is outdated, but I think it is still important. However, you learn from the lessons and the mistakes of the past. You do not disrupt the university and shut it down because that really creates a big divide. So, maybe you can still protest, but learn that shutting a campus down and getting parents all upset. I am leading into another question here. KC (00:22:16): All right, go ahead. SM (00:22:18): And this question deals with the millennials, which are today's young people that are in college campuses, and- KC (00:22:23): Is that the term used to describe them? The millennials. Oh, geez. SM (00:22:24): Yeah, the millennials, yeah. Born after 1984. KC (00:22:28): I doubt that they came up with that themselves. SM (00:22:30): No, they did not. And the Generation Xers, which followed the boomers- KC (00:22:35): Right-right. SM (00:22:35): ... which has been written about a lot. KC (00:22:37): Right. They are the tweeners here. SM (00:22:41): Right. KC (00:22:43): The Xers are the ones that were probably born while Vietnam was going on, but did not know anything about it. They were too young. SM (00:22:53): Yep. Yep. And they, also, now make up 80 to 85 percent of the parents of today's entering college students. KC (00:23:01): Yeah-yeah. SM (00:23:01): Where only 15 percent now are really boomers. KC (00:23:04): Right. That is right. SM (00:23:05): And so, here, we have got another 15 percent. KC (00:23:09): But the equivalent to that are those who were born in the, well, not born, but grew up in the late forties and the (19)50s, who are not really boomers- SM (00:23:21): Right. KC (00:23:21): ... but are of the World War II generation. SM (00:23:22): They are the silent generation. They call them the silent- KC (00:23:26): Yeah. Okay. So, there is always a tweener generation- SM (00:23:27): Right. KC (00:23:27): ... in there. It is either the X generation or the silent generation. SM (00:23:31): Well, one of the things that over the years, since I work in a university, and you are a professor, your comments will be important on this. For quite a few years, there was a reaction on generation Xers. They either wished they had lived in that era because then there were great causes that they could be involved in, or they would be the other extreme. They were sick of boomers because they were nostalgic, and they dreamed of all these things in the past, and let us live for the present. KC (00:24:01): Right. SM (00:24:01): And the millennials today have a sense of, this is my impression again, that it is not that they do not care, but I do not know if they want to learn about the history that preceded them. So, I have real concerns, and would like your thoughts on this about the parents of today's college students now, the generation Xers, and the millennials, in terms of how important is history to them? Do they want to learn from it? Or are the only thinking of today and tomorrow, and the past is the past? That is what really worries me. KC (00:24:36): Well, you have to understand. I think that we have to understand that the generation Xers reached the years when the boomers were the most committed, active, and making the biggest impact. That is late teens, early twenties, in a highly conservative period. You are talking about the Reagan era. And Xers really did not have the social context or support that boomers did. The issues were not as burning, and their lives were not directly threatened, either. That is the other thing. SM (00:25:23): Right. KC (00:25:23): There is always a sense of survival driving boomers during the anti-war movement, fear of being drafted, fear of being used, and even the boomers that became anti-war when they came back from Vietnam, anger for being misuse. The Xers did not have that context to drive them or support them. So, I think they have often been criticized and condemned by boomers in an unfair way. And when you add to that the fact that only 15 percent or less of those boomers really were as active as some much larger group of them claimed they were, you know, have to look at the boomers and say, "Okay, do not be hypocritical here. Do not condemn other people for something you did not do either." SM (00:26:21): Sure enough. KC (00:26:21): "Your generation might have, your leaders might have-" SM (00:26:23): Right. KC (00:26:24): "... but not all of you did. A lot of you sat on your ass when that demonstration went down. A lot of you threw Frisbees and smoked dope and did not listen to the speakers when you went to the demonstration." SM (00:26:32): Whereas, one person told me, "I went to Washington only to see bare breasted women." KC (00:26:36): That is right. Yeah, yeah. It became a happening. SM (00:26:39): Yeah. KC (00:26:40): Like a bee and only with a bunch of political noise in the background. So, I think the criticism of the X Generation has always been a little bit unfair to them because they were born in a different age and raised and came to fruition, to maturity, in a different age. And unfair by the boomers, because many of those boomers were not as committed as they claimed, as involved as they claimed, could take as much responsibility as they claimed for the great changes. So, I believe in being fair to people, and we should not be too hard on our sons and our daughters and our little brothers and our little sisters. SM (00:27:24): A thought that applies with the millennials today, too, as well. KC (00:27:26): Yeah, I do. Yeah. SM (00:27:26): Yeah. KC (00:27:27): But I think I have a better handle on the millennial because I think I think better now than I did 20 or 30 years ago about these kinds of things. And I was just thinking about this again a couple of days ago. I think that the millennials are being criticized too much by boomers and Xers for not being active enough against the war in Iraq, when in fact, that just isn't their issue. They view Iraq, as well as Vietnam, unconsciously, I think, for the most part. Unconsciously view it as old school. What to them is current and contemporary, AIDS, especially in Africa, Darfur, genocide in Darfur- SM (00:28:20): Right. KC (00:28:20): ... human rights, the environment, all those issues that connect with globalization. SM (00:28:28): Right. KC (00:28:28): These are contemporary issues for them, and that is where you can find them active. If you look, you find them active, whether they are blogging, whether they are on websites, whether they are holding meetings, whether they are raising funds, doing 5K runs, whatever it is, that is where they are active. SM (00:28:42): Yep. KC (00:28:43): For the most part, it is the boomer generation that is active in the anti-Iraq war movement. Now, there are certainly plenty of exceptions, but I think, in general, that is true. And I think Iraq, created by a boomer generation by people from the boomer generation that never went, chicken hawks, and protested by those who did go to Vietnam. Or those who did protest Vietnam, but are back protesting Iraq now, or those who did go to Vietnam in turned sour on it. This is a within boomer generation war and within boomer generation issue. SM (00:29:24): Wow. KC (00:29:25): In other words, they are saying that this is all politics. Not only should you not have gone to Iraq, that that is wrong, but this whole argument over it is not relevant to us, for the most part. SM (00:29:38): See, one of the characteristics that Howe and Strauss, they wrote the book Generations, they have got the book on the millennials now- KC (00:29:46): Okay. SM (00:29:46): ... they speak at national conferences. They have studied youth. KC (00:29:50): Yeah. SM (00:29:50): Some, like Dr. Levine from Columbia Teachers College- KC (00:29:54): Okay. SM (00:29:54): ... have written some great books on youth of different generations. When we are talking about the millennials, the millennials have been compared to the World War II generation because they want to leave a legacy. And they are thinking about, according to the studies of Sprouse- KC (00:30:12): Okay. SM (00:30:12): ... they want to leave a legacy, but they want to leave it when they are in their late thirties or starting in the forties. What concerns me, as a person who works in higher education with students, is, okay, we have got a generation now of students who do care about other people. They do. KC (00:30:27): Yeah. SM (00:30:27): They do care about the issues like you just mentioned of human rights, but they have got to wait until they are 40 to start leaving their legacy. And the question is, what happens between 22 and 23 and 40? From what I am gathering from the information is they want to raise a family, they want to get a lot of money in the bank, they want to get a home. So, I do not know if there's an issue here that we have to deal with. KC (00:30:53): Yeah. And I think it is the same issue that we keep coming back to, which is the 15 percent versus the 85 percent. Those people that are active, that are active now, not waiting till they are 35 or 40, are within the 15 percent. They are the ones that are really active, though, among the millennials on these issues of AIDS, of genocide, of environmental issues, et cetera, et cetera. And as I said, if you look for them, if you look at the organizations, if you go to the campuses, if you go to the websites, you find them, they are active, they are working. They are not doing the same things that the boomer generation did, but they are a different generation at a different time, and they found different ways of doing it. Just as a boomer generation did things differently than the depression era generation. It was active in the labor movement or the women's movement, women's suffrage, or whatever, twenties and thirties. The 85 percent are the ones, just like the 85 percent and the boomer generation, or whatever, were busy looking after themselves. SM (00:31:57): I think we are- KC (00:31:59): For the most part. SM (00:32:00): I think we are going to take a break here in a minute. I am- want to just mention here, could you comment on the importance of the boomers in respect to the Civil Rights movement and all the other movements, and with ending the Vietnam War? How important were the youth in ending the Vietnam War? And what do you think was the number one reason why the war ended? Then, we will take a break. KC (00:32:21): Geez. I could answer the first one, I think, easier and sooner than the second one. The first one, how important were the young people and the boomer generation in ending the war? An important part. Not a decisive part, an important part. We have to remember, the Vietnamese also contributed a lot to ending that war, to frustrating the United States in its attempt to win a victory in Vietnam. And whether we are talking about the North Vietnamese or Viet Cong or the liberation movement, whatever you want to call it, the Vietnamese, who were fighting against the Americans, contributed a lot to finally ending that war. Now, the home front, along the home front, I do not think. It was- Along the home front, I do not think it was until the movement was broader than just young people that it really became decisive. It was only when broader sections of society and many of them older sections of society whether it was church leaders, some of the liberal trade union organizations. Geez, by the time I became active in the movement in 1970 after I got discharged there was a businessman's organization against the war. I mean, they began to come from all facets of society and fill out any war movement so that it was much broader than just the youth or just the students. I think that is when it began to be recognized as legitimate by that silent majority or whatever you want to call it in the middle. Those who were not on the far right but certainly... Those who were open to the possibility that the war was wrong and they were in the middle as opposed to the far left or the far right. I think that middle ground, they were really the parents of those Vietnam veterans. The parents of the working-class kids, the parents of the farmers, the parents of the kid that went off from the rural area to Vietnam. From which so many of those lives were lost, they're the ones that needed to be won over and they were Nixon's silent majority and they were eventually won over. I think in part by the Vietnam minister turned against the war, acting as a bridge to them and bringing along that stuff. But more generally, the broadening of the anti-war movement to give it legitimacy in the eyes of those folks. SM (00:35:14): Okay. Kind of like the... But some of the history books say it is when the body bags start coming home, middle America responded. KC (00:35:23): Absolutely, yeah. The more body bags, the classic study is by John Mueller who War, President's and Public Opinion. SM (00:35:32): That is the book I... KC (00:35:33): Yeah. SM (00:35:33): Yep. Let us take a break right here and then [inaudible]. One of the things about the boomer generation, and I can say this from personal experience is when I was on a college campus. There is this feeling that we were the most unique generation in American history because we were going to... Well, not me. That the boomers were going to change the world, they are going to make everything better. Going to end racism and sexism, bring peace to the world, love, the whole thing not hate. Your comments on that attitude that boomers had when they were young and your thoughts about boomers over the years as boomers have gotten older regarding that question. KC (00:36:29): Well, and this question I do not see any great difference between the boomer generation and any other generation. It is youthful arrogance taking what is true at its core that is that you have people committed to change and meaningful, important, necessary change and exaggerating. This is a tendency it's not a uniform, it is a tendency many to exaggerate it and think that they are so different or we are so different and so great, so new, move over old people get out of the way. To some degree maybe we can thank JFK and his inaugural speech, go anywhere, pay any price, we are the new generation coming in. Eisenhower and that crew is the old tired, do nothing, lazy... Not lazy but ineffective generation. Geez Eisenhower had two heart attacks while he was in office, he was on a golf course a lot of the time. I mean, there is this whole sense that it was a new, young, vibrant generation and I think that inaugural address really does speak to the boomer generation and the way we saw ourselves. We were going to do stuff that nobody had done before. I think every generation thinks that though, they just think of it depending on the circumstances in different ways. So the oppression World War II generation certainly did plenty of new things. Only concentrated more in the conventional and the more traditional areas and they built newer and bigger businesses. That is how we got the Whiz Kids that wound up in a JFK administration. SM (00:38:33): Yes. KC (00:38:33): Yeah, that is right. Yeah. After all that depression era, World War II generation really created the large middle class in America where most people actually had the American dream eventually of their own home. Home ownership after World War II skyrocketed. So there were very conventional kinds of goals but that earlier generation was committed to doing things beyond which their previous generation... I think every generation does that and every generation tends to think when they're young. When they're in their teens or their 20s they think that they are greater than the previous generation. Well, they may be in some ways but not in other ways and compared to the generation that is going to follow them they are going to be less. So long as we keep improving in general, so long as humanity keeps improving in general. Next generation is going to do the things a little bit better and they will probably in an arrogant way think that they are better than they really are. So, I think it is a human thing, I would not pin it on any particular generation. It just plays itself out differently in different generations based on the circumstances, the larger structural or societal circumstances. SM (00:39:56): This is a very important question that I have asked in each of the interviews, the concept of healing. The Vietnam Memorial in Washington D.C. when it was built, I loved the goals to pay tribute to those who served, to remember those who served and to not be a political entity. It's about the warrior, it's about caring. KC (00:40:26): Right. SM (00:40:27): So the goal was to heal those individuals and hopefully to heal the nation as Jan Scruggs said in his book. The question is this, have we healed as a nation because of divisions that took place during that era? The divisions were so strong, you mentioned even earlier in the interview about we did not have a civil war here. But the nation was being torn apart and if you looked at 1968 at the Democratic Convention, even the Republican Convention. The threats for that convention that year and you saw the burnings in Watts, all that whole era- KC (00:41:00): We are talking about the worst division since the Civil War in American society but not as deeply as the Civil War. SM (00:41:05): Right. But here we are in 2007, I have been doing these interviews since 96 now so as the years progress. But where are we with the respect to healing on these particular issues? Healing over the divisions that happened in the war, the divisions... All the other issues, all the other movements that took place at that time. There were always barricades in many respects in all of these movements were... In short what I am saying is, has the wall truly healed the Vietnam veteran portion of the boomer generation? Secondly, where do we stand as a nation in terms of healing over Vietnam? KC (00:41:54): I think the wall helped and the wall helped in a big way in that process of healing, I do not think it has been the only thing. There have been a lot of other contributors to the healing that has occurred. But there has also been a real limit to the amount of healing that could occur regardless of what device we are talking about. Using a wall, using movies, using meetings of Vietnam veterans to talk stuff like this out, whatever the device is. Legislation to provide some more support for veterans. Whatever it is, it is meant to help heal. There are limits on it and it is not for lack of trying but because some of these wounds cannot be healed completely. Some of these wounds are so deep and remain so fresh that the scars just never healed, they remained open. Now, we are talking about emotional wounds for the most part. Because for some Vietnam veterans, and I would not want to in this case separate the 15 percent of combat intensive veterans from those who experienced very little or no combat. Because here, even the 85 percent that did not see much combat still suffered psychological damage because of the failure of the war and the cold shoulder of the American society when they came back. I think for some of those veterans Vietnam was the best and the worst of their life. On one hand it represented the worst while they were there for most of them, for 99.9 percent of them. I would suggest that one 10th of 1 percent that loved being there might have needed some psychological help but most of us could not wait to come home. Right? SM (00:44:17): Right. KC (00:44:18): So most of us at the time wanted to get the Vietnam experience over with and forget about it as quickly as possible. But the irony is-is that in later years, most of those Vietnam vets cannot forget about it and do not want to forget about it. They gather as Vietnam veterans, they have reunions as Vietnam veterans. They email each other and have websites which they talk to each other because it was the most important experience in their life. It turns out that everything after that for many of them was anti-climactic, whether it was marriage or their job or having kids, who were traveling or success in their business or whatever it was. Now, that is true among a certain segment. I do not know what that percentage is, it is I think a fairly significant percentage of all Vietnam veterans that have problems like that. I do not know, it is certainly in double digits. I do not know whether it comes anywhere near a third or a half. But on the other hand, there are a lot of veterans who... I think they would probably be in the majority of Vietnam veterans who do not have those scars or they are not obvious. So, they are able to deal with them well enough that they have healed well enough, that they have been able to get over it. I am not talking about locking bad memories in a closet or artificially, where someday they are going to pop out and they will go crazy and kill 15 people in a bar for no reason. I am talking about people who really have, for the most part gotten over it and moved on and had more important chapters in their lives. Right? So that they can look back and not be troubled by that all that much and not have to think about it all the time. For those I think the healing has pretty much occurred, pretty much completed. Not completely but it is that other segment, that still significant segment of those who for whatever reason and there are probably lots of different reasons wound up in the strange contradiction of not wanting to stay in Vietnam. Wanting to get out as soon as they could, wanting to forget... Okay. Put it behind them as fast as they could and then winding up building the rest of their life around that experience. Now they're the guys you see that have the bumper stickers, wear the pins in their hats. The worst of them become professional veterans right? That is all they do and their wives are veterans’ widows. SM (00:47:09): What do you think of veterans who live off the Vietnam War? KC (00:47:15): Live off in what sense. SM (00:47:20): One of the... I am going to put this in the book. But one of the criticisms of the Vietnam Memorial is that Jan Scruggs is... I have heard Vietnam veterans saying he is living off it. KC (00:47:27): Yeah, right. I mean I know what you could be thinking about and I guess I am right. SM (00:47:31): But I know Jan and I know that is not what he said [inaudible]. KC (00:47:36): Those who find a way of subsistence on the issue of Vietnam in some way, whether it is Veterans Affairs in some way or something connected directly to the Vietnam War and the history of it, etc-etc. I do not have any particularly ill will about that, if personally some of those folks are doing it only because they do not want to bother finding another way of making a living. In other words, they are not driven by principle, they are driven by opportunism. Right? I say shame on them, look at yourself and in the mirror and shame on you. But I would not make a big deal out of it, I do not worry about it. The people that I find most reprehensible are those who are so hypocritical in their involvement with the Vietnam War and with Veterans Affairs. That they're prepared to turn their own experiences into a lie in order to continue to profit from it, either financially or politically. Those who are prepared to twist the truth of their own experiences and other experiences in a way in which they get ahead financially, politically, socially, some other way. That kind of opportunity, if they are becoming opportunists by creating more unnecessary bodies or more unnecessary victims. Those are the folks that I potentially dislike. SM (00:49:23): How about the healing within the generation? KC (00:49:27): Yeah, that was the second part. SM (00:49:29): Was there a place to go to the restroom or should I go behind a tree? KC (00:49:39): There is a restroom, of course there is a restroom. Of course, yeah. It is right over here, let us stop this at this point. SM (00:49:43): Talk about the generation regarding the question of healing. KC (00:49:47): Right. SM (00:49:49): Your thoughts on the boomer generations, the divisions of the... Do we still have these divisions today? KC (00:49:55): I think in the fringe wings of the generation, we still have these divisions in a significant way today. That is that they are still deep and they are still bitter, still open wounds. The far left and the far right, I think most folks in between have agreed to disagree if necessary but probably agree more now than they did 20 years ago on a lot of issues. I do not think it is a big problem, I do not think it is anywhere near the kind of problem that it is for a lot of Vietnam veterans. SM (00:50:41): There were several books that have been written in recent years, I know Barney Frank wrote a book called Speaking Frankly. Other books have been written about that, that in 1972 when the nation was really torn apart and McGovern became the Democratic candidate. The divisions were intense even within the Democratic Party and the term liberal- KC (00:51:02): Was pejorative. SM (00:51:03): Well, yeah. Yes. KC (00:51:05): By the radicals according to most activists, if you were a liberal that was pejorative. That meant that you were not prepared to make the kind of sacrifices and engage in the kind of activities that would bring about real change. You just postured that way and you were probably part of the elite and benefiting from the status quo anyway. Part of the system rather than part of the solution. SM (00:51:33): Well supposedly people who were involved in the anti-war movement were labeled a radical fringe and it is stuck with them their whole lives. Do you think there is truth to that? KC (00:51:45): Well, there is certainly truths among those on the right and the hard right that they still think of the anti-war movement as a radical fringe. But I think most people who were involved in one way or another either slightly or intentionally in the anti-war movement. I think for the most part in general American society there is a recognition that the anti-war movement was not just the radical fringe, that it was a bit broader than that. But let me back off from that just a little bit and say that the more time passes, I think the more that myth of the anti-war movement thing, the radical fringe gains ascendancy. Because with passing time there is smaller and smaller space given in history books to that period, and awareness is simplistically deal with it is just to label the war movement a radical fringe and show a picture of a riot with tear gas and students throwing stuff and long hair and etc. SM (00:52:59): Why do you think just the word Vietnam, you just bring it up in a conversation today it creates all kinds of whoa. KC (00:53:10): Well, it depends on who you bring it up among. If you bringing up among folks of the boomer generation, it is going to have that reaction. If you bring that up among the millennials, "Huh? What?" SM (00:53:25): Right. KC (00:53:25): It is not relevant to them. "Yeah, that was my grandfather's war." Well maybe not quite that bad, but to them it is not bad it is a long ways removed. To them the first Persian Gulf War is ancient history [inaudible]. SM (00:53:42): Yeah. KC (00:53:48): As you pointed out, even to some of them 9/11 is ancient history. So yeah, if you are talking about the boomer generation. Sure, there is a sharp immediate reaction to it because of how emotional the issue was then and the fact that it has never been completely settled. In the 1970s, essentially mid to late (19)70s we agreed to disagree in the country as a whole and move on, forget about it. But among those who were the most intentionally involved, either supporting the war or opposing the war. It always remained a sharp issue and an open wound. SM (00:54:33): We had just your thoughts on the word activism. We had for a couple of years activist days at Westchester University, I was asked to politely not to end it. We did it for five years, we brought people like Phillip and Daniel Berrigan to our campus. Elizabeth McAllister, Alan Canfora from Kent State, Tom Hayden. KC (00:54:55): So, it was all left-wing- SM (00:54:56): Holly Near... Oh, no. We did bring Michelle Malkin from the conservative. KC (00:55:01): Okay. SM (00:55:02): So, her activist days of last year, because Republicans they believe that activism is a very important part of what they do, the Young America's Foundation. KC (00:55:12): Sure, yeah. SM (00:55:16): What is it about the term activism that seems to turn people off when we actually want people to become involved? But- KC (00:55:24): Are you talking about students today? SM (00:55:26): Students today. KC (00:55:27): That population? SM (00:55:27): Yeah. Some universities responding to the fact that this is not the era the students they are volunteers, but they are not activists. KC (00:55:36): Right, yeah. SM (00:55:36): There is a fear about that term as I have done some educational sessions that at university conferences on this, and there is truth. There is something out there, and a lot of us within the boomers who are running universities but it is also following generations too. What is it about activism too that scares people? Am I- KC (00:56:00): Well, it might be confrontation. It might be bitter confrontation because they might associate activism with the (19)60s and that kind of bitter, nasty confrontation that they are not interested in becoming involved in. That it became particularly uncivil during that period of time in (19)60s and in early (19)70s, and they feel that they can be more civil. That they can disagree with other people in a more civil way. So that for them to become activists would mean for them to break away from those values. Reject those values and adopt values from an earlier period and an earlier behavior that they think perhaps was not the wisest kind of behavior to engage in. SM (00:56:53): See, the current scholars on the term activism will say that activism is any person who wants to make a difference in this world. KC (00:57:00): You cannot rely on scholars for definitions, they do not even agree among themselves. SM (00:57:06): But even activist handbooks will say that. KC (00:57:09): Yeah [inaudible]. SM (00:57:09): What is wrong with wanting to make a difference in the world? KC (00:57:13): Yeah. There is nothing to the millennials that is wrong with making a difference in the world, but you are not putting it in those terms. If you said to them, we want you to try and make a difference in a world they would probably respond. As a matter of fact, you would not need to tell them that they are already involved and they are already responding trying to make a difference. They just do not particularly want to be associated with the kind of activism that, that word brings up. SM (00:57:43): Good point. When the best history books are written, you being a scholar. The best history books are often written 50 years after an event takes place. World War II books, some of the best ones are being written right now. 50 years after the (19)60s and (19)70s what will historians say about that era? KC (00:58:08): Well, first of all I have a question about your premise here. Who decides which is the best book and maybe it is the generation that lived through that period when they are getting old and awfully as nostalgic decide that the book's written and by their own generation and by them are the best books. How do we know that the books written immediately after the fact, or at the time were not better books? Who judges which of the best books? Well, if you let the generation that lived through that judge the best books they are probably going to judge the ones that they write themselves as the best books. Because that is just a little quiver with that, just sort of a bleak way of thinking of that question. SM (00:58:50): I think historians say that the best books are written 50 years after. KC (00:58:55): Well they probably say that because they believe distance and greater objectivity make for better history books and they may well be true, be right about that. But there are also other historians that believe that perhaps those who were very subjective and very involved in it can also contribute a lot to the history of that. Therefore, things like oral history are written and done. So maybe the best book on depression for instance, was written 40, 50 years later. But I loved Studs Terkel's oral history of the depression, Hard Times. SM (00:59:51): Yeah. KC (00:59:52): That was still written about 40 years afterwards, yeah. But it was all based on oral history and oral history is not objective. It is very subjective, it is the collection of very subjective first-person descriptions about that- SM (01:00:16): And that is in my interviews. KC (01:00:18): That is right, yeah. So, I do not know how to answer the question I guess. I have got a number of possible answers, but I do not know when the best books are written about something. SM (01:00:37): This little section of the interview-interview is just for me to mention some of the names of that period. KC (01:00:41): All right. SM (01:00:42): For your immediate response, does not have to be any long in depth but just quick response- KC (01:00:48): Kind of like a Rorschach? SM (01:00:48): Yes. I am going to start out with Tom Hayden. KC (01:00:53): Jane Fonda. SM (01:00:53): Jane Fonda was next. KC (01:00:54): Yeah. I thought maybe this was the scene from The Dirty Dozen where they were all being asked by psychologist to respond to different names or words or whatever. SM (01:01:07): It is similar. KC (01:01:09): Yeah, Tom Hayden. Jane Fonda. SM (01:01:11): Yeah. KC (01:01:12): Tom Hayden. Well, Tom Hayden to me evokes the era of student protest against the war, although I think he also was involved and may have been a leader in the protest for a free speech in California. SM (01:01:29): It was early on, yep. KC (01:01:30): Right, earlier. Well I think a student protest against the war, I think of Tom Hayden. SM (01:01:35): How about Jane Fonda? KC (01:01:36): Jane Fonda, that is a little more different. A little more personal in the sense that I have a great deal of respect for her for stepping up and siding and supporting Vietnam veterans against the war when she did. I had great regret for her, I feel badly for her that she made a young and foolish decision to sit in the seat of that anti-aircraft gun in North Vietnam. I understand and support her motivations for doing that, which was solidarity with the people that did not deserve to be bombed. But it was not a smart thing for her to do, and especially be pictured in it and be laughing while she's sitting there. But that is a youth... Relatively, she was in her (19)30s at that point. But relatively youthful, inexperienced, and I do not blame her anywhere near the degree that many Vietnam veterans especially the right wing of Vietnam veterans blame her for that. SM (01:02:42): The big selling sticker down in Washington is Jane Fonda bitch, and they have it upside down and they also have a Jane Fonda... Some toiletries or something like that that they sell. KC (01:02:54): Yeah. Jane Fonda toiletry. SM (01:02:56): Yeah, something like that. So, the hate for her is still pretty intense. KC (01:03:00): Yeah. My personal pet theory about that is that that is the macho posturing right wing Vietnam vets that take particular offense that a woman has undercut their experience. SM (01:03:14): Oh, wow. KC (01:03:15): There have been a lot of men who visited North Vietnam and did at least what Jane Fonda did, who have not been singled out by Vietnam veterans the way Jane Fonda has. I think it is particularly interesting it is a woman that they singled out. How dare she? As if she is eviscerated them in some way or cut their balls off in some way and they are going to get her back. SM (01:03:38): Robert McNamara is the other one they seem to hate. KC (01:03:41): Oh, yeah. SM (01:03:41): McNamara and somewhat even when Clinton was president, they hated him too for- KC (01:03:47): Yeah, sure. SM (01:03:47): Yeah. So, your thoughts on Bill Clinton and Robert McNamara. KC (01:03:56): And they hate me too. Robert McNamara, I think that the hatred for him was more than Johnson. That is interesting because Johnson was commander-in-chief, it is not like they hey... Well, Johnson is no longer alive. Who knows? Maybe they'd hate more than McNamara today. I think the hatred for McNamara had more to do with him being so much an architect of that war. SM (01:04:18): Right. KC (01:04:19): At least in terms of the strategy and tactics. That war of attrition, that numbers war, he was a numbers guy, war by the numbers and the impersonal persona. Is that a contradiction, impersonal persona? SM (01:04:39): Mm-mm. KC (01:04:39): But the impersonal image that he presented, although we can learn by looking at his video or his movie that he cries and he is sensitive. SM (01:04:49): Right. KC (01:04:51): But that image that he presented and finally, and I think this is most important. That he actually concluded that the war could not be won long before he stopped directing it and I think it is rightfully in this case felt a certain betrayal, a lack of principle, a certain hypocrisy on his part. SM (01:05:17): Yeah. I remember the six... In Retrospect was the book that came out and my very first interview with Senator McCarthy in (19)96. The book had been out a year or so, and I asked for his comment on the book, and he did not believe him. "I do not believe him." I have that in the interview, and then also- KC (01:05:39): Did not believe that he had [inaudible] against the war. SM (01:05:41): No, he still- KC (01:05:44): There seems to be other I think independent verification of that in the documents now. SM (01:05:48): We still disliked him intensely. KC (01:05:50): Oh, yeah. SM (01:05:50): Then interviewed Bobby Mueller recently in the last year, and Bobby has actually done some things with him. Bobby- KC (01:05:59): With McNamara? SM (01:06:00): Yeah, with McNamara and some programs. So, he would be upset with him, but he's- SM (01:06:03): And some programs and so he would be upset with him, but he has grown to understand him. I am not speaking for Bobby, I get- KC (01:06:08): And not just understand him, work with him- SM (01:06:09): You are right. KC (01:06:10): Too. SM (01:06:10): Yeah. KC (01:06:11): And work in common cause with him on certain issues, maybe the landmines issue. SM (01:06:15): Yeah, I am not quite sure, I have to go back to the interview, but there was not the hatred that I expected and Bobby was to be the first one, I respect him so much. If he's against somebody, he will outright say it and- KC (01:06:27): Sure, but I can understand Bobby Mueller's approach to McNamara because at least McNamara admitted that he was wrong, eventually and has taken a position that is against that kind of wasteful destruction now. SM (01:06:46): What is interesting, why I like Mr. Scruggs and also when Lewis Puller was alive back in... They brought Bill Clinton to the wall and I thought that took a lot of courage on their part to do that, and Lewis would went right up to... With his wheelchair and made sure that he was seen next to Bill Clinton, even though he disagreed with him. Although when- KC (01:07:10): It is also a smart political movement. SM (01:07:12): Yes. KC (01:07:12): Part of Scruggs. SM (01:07:15): Yeah, but also Lewis though, and back in February of 19- KC (01:07:20): Well, wait, you said Lewis? You said was- SM (01:07:21): Yeah, Lewis. KC (01:07:21): Lewis, [inaudible]. SM (01:07:22): Yeah, Lewis was involved in that. And Lewis was up there in the States. Of course, the next year he died, he killed himself, but he had made a point that he was trying to... It was part of the healing process and also I guess in February of that year, some issues between Lewis and other Vietnam vets and President Clinton and promises he had made fell through. So Lewis was pretty bitter, I think, toward Clinton. It was not that same other vets, but I have always found, and I am going to get into the questions here, but what makes the law program so important is they brought some very key people there since 1982, and I think the epitome of healing is to bring the people like McNamara and Jane Fonda to speak there. I think it would do an unbelievable part of Jane Fond and McNamara before he passed away, visited and were there at the ceremony, for example, this 25th anniversary, I'd do anything in my power to bring them to this. KC (01:08:29): I think that if Jane Fonda tried to speak in front of that memorial- SM (01:08:32): I know. KC (01:08:32): There would be some right wings there to try and assassinate her. SM (01:08:36): Well, McNamara too, maybe. KC (01:08:37): Maybe McNamara, but certainly Jane Fonda. They associate Jane, she is the epitome in their eyes of everything that was wrong about Vietnam. SM (01:08:52): Lyndon Johnson. KC (01:08:57): Responsible for Vietnam. Tragic figure. On one hand he did a great deal for civil rights and for the poor in America, but on the other hand, he was so wrong on Vietnam and was... Well, it is a paradox. He is a typical tragic figure. I mean, on one hand, you feel sorry for him. On the other hand, he has to take... I feel anguish towards him too, you just take certain responsibility for that. To some degree, he was a victim of the circumstances, the Cold War. I am not sure any president would have done much differently than he did, so I am not sure we can separate him from any other president, even if Kennedy had lived. I strongly disagree with those historians who say that if Kennedy had... There is evidence, if Kennedy had lived, that he would not have done what Johnson did, that he would have pulled us out or not. Certainly not escalated to the level of using combat battalions and brigades. I disagree, I think that Kennedy was at least as much a politician as Johnson and said different things to different people depending on what he felt they should hear and that he could no more escape the politics of the Cold War than anybody else could at that time. SM (01:10:35): This brings me right in just John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. KC (01:10:38): Yeah, John Kennedy has to share a great deal of responsibility for what Johnson did because John Kennedy, it was on his watch that the overthrow of Diệm, and the assassination with Diệm took place and in my view, the only reason that overthrow occurred, I will separate the assassination out from it because it is possible that Kennedy wanted Diệm to make it to the Riviera alive. Where the emperor Bao Dai was at that point in time too, where most Vietnamese escape wound up [inaudible]. So, I will separate the assassination part of it, that might have been the officers themselves. The Vietnamese officers had decided to do that, but certainly Kennedy wanted the coup to occur, allowed the coup to occur, gave orders for the coup to occur, whatever you want to call it, helped orchestrate that coup through the CIA. The evidence is absolutely crystal clear and credible that the CIA had everything to do with that, and the only reason they would do that is because Kennedy administration and Kennedy having to take most responsibility with the buck stopping there, it's because they intended to carry on the war only with more American involvement, not less, because Diệm at that point in time was an obstacle to them. He did not want the war Americanized. He was digging in his heels and beginning to even desperately talk, he and his brother talk about some neutralization process and talking to the VC and talking to the North, finding some other way out of it in order to keep that war from becoming so Americanized because Diệm was a nationalist. He had plenty of other false... He was all always a nationalist, and he began to conclude that the Americans were simply replacing the French and wanting to control that area, and the war was going very badly under Vietnam and the only way the Americans felt that they could have a chance of keeping the south from going communist was putting American troops in there. [inaudible] was an obstacle, get them out of the way and then put the troops in. So, I think if Kennedy had lived, he would have done what Johnson did. Maybe not exactly the same way at the same time, but I think he would have... The Democratic Party would not have allowed him to do anything differently because the Democratic Party did not want to be labeled as pro-communist, having lost a yet another country, let Vietnam go after China, they wanted the White House. I do not think there is any point in time where one of those two parties says, nah we do not need the White House. We will stand on principle. Uh-huh. They wanted the White House and they would do what they needed to do in the context of the Cold War. This is not the late (19)60s, this is the early and mid (19)60s, and Kennedy could not have gotten it past the Democratic Party, would not have gotten it past the American Electric... The American society, American public as a whole saying, "Oh, we will let Vietnam go south on us, we will let it go to a communist because we do not want to put American ground troops there." Uh-huh, would not have happened. SM (01:13:59): How about Bobby Kennedy? Just a quick thought on Bobby and- KC (01:14:00): Yeah, just Bobby, I did not know very much about Bobby. Bobby died when I was in Vietnam, he was assassinated. I heard about it as I was in Vietnam. I was around Khe Sanh at the time, in the mountains around Khe Sanh and him, and Martin Luther King. I was in the bush when I heard about it, finally. He seemed to... Well, I could say was he younger seemed to be more idealistic than Robert, or not Robert, than John. Robert was more idealistic than John, I think. Probably not as clever and as realistic politically as John Kennedy was. I think John Kennedy was just politically more bright than Bobby, but I am not sure of that. I think Bobby Kennedy turning any war was opportunistic, probably if he was against the war, it might have been before he ever decided to turn against it publicly. I mean, it might not have anything to do with his decision to publicly come out against it. I think he publicly came out against it because he saw that as the best route to the White House. SM (01:15:12): Yeah, how about Eugene McCarthy? Because I was- KC (01:15:14): Eugene McCarthy, I think was more on principle. That is my impression, but again, I did not work with these guys, I was too young, my sense of it is far less direct. My experience with it is far less direct and far less knowledgeable even as a scholar than most of the other questions I have asked so far. I just have not spent a whole lot of time looking at either Bobby Kennedy or Eugene McCarthy. SM (01:15:41): You got Hubert Humphrey in there and you have got- KC (01:15:43): Oh, I got arrested over Hubert Humphrey. SM (01:15:45): Yeah. KC (01:15:46): Hubert Humphrey was running for president in (19)70... The primary in (19)72, and I got arrested as VVAW in Philadelphia here protesting at his speech because he was not anti-war enough. He was still trying to keep one foot in each camp in (19)72, and the government was a clear anti-war candidate, and we supported McGovern and opposed Humphrey, and I got arrested for civil disobedience. That is my immediate association with Hubert Humphrey. SM (01:16:16): Yeah, [inaudible] your thoughts of George McGovern, because we have had him on our campus. KC (01:16:20): Yeah. McGovern is a highly principled, is he still alive? SM (01:16:25): Oh yeah. KC (01:16:25): I think he is, yeah. Highly principled, a good guy, hearts in a right place. He made few mistakes in his presidential campaign just in terms of tactics that alienated them, but now without doing a close study of that, it was an overwhelming victory for Nixon. It is a landslide for Nixon. McGovern only won Massachusetts. There had to be other things that went wrong with that campaign, or perhaps in the McGovern's case, he simply had to be prepared to sacrifice the White House for principal. I think he was, and I think it was only because there was a revolution within the Democratic Party at the (19)72 convention that enabled grassroots people to get leadership pissed off Daley, as I recall, John Daley, because his whole delegation I think was unseated or something at that convention. But they got control of it, and that is the only kind of leadership in a Democratic Party, and it's an anomaly, that kind of leadership that would say, we would rather lose the White House than sacrifice this principle. I do not think they thought that- SM (01:17:47): You see any of that- KC (01:17:49): They prepared to take that risk. SM (01:17:50): You see any of that in the candidates today in the Republican or Democratic? KC (01:17:53): I am a governed kind of approach that it is better to- SM (01:17:55): Yes. KC (01:17:56): No, I do not see any of those candidates that way. None of them stick out to me as being that way. I think they are all more political than not. When it comes down divide between principle and... If [inaudible] gets in a race, I might lean towards him being more principal because I think he has grown a lot and come a long way, but I do not trust any of the rest of them if it came down to a division between principal and winning to go with principal and risk losing. SM (01:18:30): Okay. How about... These are some quick responses to Huey Newton, Bobby Seale and the Black Panthers general thought. KC (01:18:42): Some of the most tragic figures in the left and some of the most tragic history. Those with the most grievances and the most legitimate grievances in American society, winding up using some of the worst tactics, embracing violence, seeing violence as the only way to do it. Tragic in that sense that it backfired on them and they suffered personally. The movement, the black liberation movement of that time suffered as a whole and the left suffered as a whole, but... Well, I also have a lot of understanding too. I do not understand it the way a black person can understand it, the way a poor black person can understand it, but I was a poor white kid and I can understand at least some of it, some of the rage, economics, feeling of isolation from the system and the powers at be, opportunities forever closed off or pretty much forever closed off. At least poor white kids had some opportunity, poor black kids had virtually nothing. But the opportunities for poor white kids were nowhere near what it was for middle class white kids. Poor white kids did not know anything about conscientious objection and how to go about doing it. Whereas we're simply getting into the National Guard, or getting into college and getting a deferment that way. SM (01:20:19): Dr. King, particularly with his speech in Vietnam on the go. KC (01:20:23): Yeah see, I did not realize that until many years later how eloquent and how thoughtful he had become on the war. I knew he had turned against the war publicly, not long before he was assassinated, but it was only in later years that I actually read some of the speeches from around that time and saw how truly sharp, at least according to what I read, how truly sharp his thinking and how much courage he had to speak that way regarding in particular America's role in the world at that time. Because to go beyond Vietnam to America's role in the world as a whole was the step that most of the left did not even go because it was focused so narrowly on Vietnam as a foreign policy, as a foreign affair, and King recognized that America had become the greatest purveyor of violence. It might have been even been his phrase, I forget exactly the phrase, but the greatest generator of violence in the world by that point in time. He was essentially saying, we are the bad guys, not just in Vietnam, but in general, in the world, we have to change our attitude about intervention and opposing every indigenous struggle because by calling it communism, whether it's in Asia, Africa, Latin America, I mean, it was pretty far-reaching kind of conclusion he came and a decision he made to say it. SM (01:22:13): He had a lot of courage, I was talking with a couple civil rights leaders on our campus this past year, and no one has written a book on Dr. King in Vietnam. KC (01:22:22): Oh, that is a great idea. SM (01:22:24): There has been a lot of books on Dr. King and his speech is well known. KC (01:22:28): I am going to talk to David Cortright and ask him if he... Do you know who David Cortright is? SM (01:22:28): No. KC (01:22:33): Okay. David Cortright's a former active duty GI leader soldier, Soldiers in Revolt is a well-known book of his from that time. He is now a professor at Notre Dame, and if there was ever a face on the GI movement, it was David Cortright. So, I mean, he was probably the most famous leader of the GI movement against the war, and that is how I first met him, because I was one of the mid to higher level leaders in the- SM (01:23:05): Is he still at Notre Dame? KC (01:23:06): Vietnam vet. Yeah, he is associated with it. There is the Four Freedoms Foundation, and he is the director of it is called, so that is the way he would find them on the internet. Four Freedom Foundation, either the fourth freedom or four freedoms might be the Fourth Freedom, try either one of those. SM (01:23:22): Okay. KC (01:23:22): Or just Cortright, C O R T R I G H T. SM (01:23:29): Okay. KC (01:23:29): David Cortright. And David is a great follower of Gandhi and Martin Luther King, and he would be ideal to write this, he just published his memoirs on nonviolence. So, David Cortright did. SM (01:23:42): Oh, really? KC (01:23:42): On nonviolence and the anti-war movement and just in a movements in general. SM (01:23:46): Is that Notre Dame Press or? KC (01:23:48): No, that is paradigm. It is my own press, it is the same press that [inaudible]- SM (01:23:52): That is out now? KC (01:23:54): Yeah, it came out before mine did. Matter of fact, I used his as a model for when I was doing my citation, so I wanted to get the paradigm citation process right, I simply used his as an example. SM (01:24:06): What are your thoughts on the, again, just quick responses, the Berrigan brothers? Daniel and Philip. KC (01:24:11): Yeah. Again, great contributors, highly principled people. They were clearly religious, and it is something that I am not. I was born and raised Catholic, but I lost God in a fox whole. I began doubting a higher being when I looked around me and saw what was going on and all of the myths, religious myths, they became more and more unsupportable to me as I came more directly in contact with the worst of reality. You know what I mean? And plus, that whole Catholic upbringing in a Catholic Church reflected to me and represented to me the rigidness of the conventional life that produced the conventional society, the conventional structure and leadership that produced Vietnam. And I saw many of [inaudible], people like Cardinal Spellman blessing the bombers before they go off for, I do not want to go into great details there. There's some personal connections to include my uncle [inaudible]- SM (01:25:27): Did you become an atheist? KC (01:25:28): Atheist in the sense that I- SM (01:25:31): Or agnostic? KC (01:25:32): Yeah, I do not have a positive belief in God. It is possible that God exists, but if I am wrong about... I do not think it is going to be any big thing, because I think it is most important that you live your life in the best way you can, that you live a good life, that you be good to other people and try and be good yourself, do not always live up to it. But I think that the essence of every religion I accept, which is to do the right thing, that short, sweet version of what is his name? The black film producer, do the right thing. SM (01:26:20): Spike Lee. KC (01:26:20): Spike Lee, in a tradition of [inaudible], just do the right thing. And I think you could gather every serious and sincere religious person to gather around that same thing. Do the right thing, I believe in doing the right thing, that is my religion. Do the right thing- SM (01:26:34): Dr. Benjamin- KC (01:26:34): Of course, I do not always live up to it. SM (01:26:35): Dr. Benjamin Spock. KC (01:26:39): Benjamin Spock, baby doctor? I mean, that is how I associate... Well, I know that through reading and history that he was... And I might, if I taxed myself, recollect, but I cannot trust my recollection that he was connected in the Air War movement. I now know that he was. But no other recollections beyond that. SM (01:26:54): Well, I think this [inaudible], did not it? Yeah, it did. It all is still going. It was... Cannot tell. No, that good click, I heard it. Amazing. Well, it is still in the middle. KC (01:27:11): It is on a very slow speed. SM (01:27:14): Yeah, that is a very slow speed, did not know. KC (01:27:16): Yeah. You wind up, I think with less quality though, when you have it that slow speed, right? SM (01:27:23): Not sure, just something is wrong with this. I think this one comes out fine. KC (01:27:29): All right. SM (01:27:29): Abby Hoffman, Jerry Ruben, the Yippies. KC (01:27:32): Assholes. SM (01:27:32): Okay. KC (01:27:41): Yeah, assholes. Infantile leftist, people who might have had their heart initially in a right place when they decided to oppose things like the war and the establishment, but certainly were silly, stupid, infantile. To me, they were taking middle class tantrums. This was a middle or upper middle class tantrum, carry on the way they did. And they did great destruction to the image of the anti-war movement in the minds of middle America out there. Their thing was to goof on Middle America. SM (01:28:19): They got [inaudible] as the pig to run as president. KC (01:28:23): Yeah, they had no respect for middle America. SM (01:28:25): Malcolm X. KC (01:28:27): Malcolm X, militant, extremist. They are the words I think of first for my oldest, and my oldest recollection of that name from when I was much younger when I was a kid, fear. We in working class white America, row house, inner City America, and the white neighborhoods feared Malcolm X and black militants. In particular, the black Muslims because they were armed and they were fiery and they were angry, and they predated the Black Panthers. I mean, the Black Panthers, as we talked about it, adopted some violent tactics himself. But I have a better appreciation since then, since my earliest experiences listening to on a radio or seeing on television or reading about the black Muslims and Malcolm X, that this guy... Another tragic figure, this guy was attempting to do something for his people who were clearly wronged and perhaps in the most extreme cases, did not use the best approach, made strategic errors. But I do not know a great deal about them, I have never read a biography of them. I have not studied him. So I begin with my sense of him from when I was a kid in a racist white neighborhood of fearing him and fearing that riot that took place in 1964, I think it was in north Philadelphia, which spread up to our neighborhood, it was only a few blocks away. And to the point of better understanding, respect, but also a tragic sense of, it is a shame that he was not able to adopt the methods of a Martin Luther King and strengthened King's movement. SM (01:30:50): Of course, he was changing toward the end of his life. I think there is a direct link between that change and his death. KC (01:30:58): Yeah, sure. SM (01:30:58): Yep. Timothy Leary. KC (01:31:02): Acid, something I never used and never wanted to use because I was afraid I would not be able to control my Vietnam nightmares and my temper and my anger and my violence if I ever took acid. But that is what I associated him with. SM (01:31:16): How bad were drugs in Vietnam? KC (01:31:18): Well, not acid, geez when I was in Vietnam, grass was the thing. (19)68, early (19)69 grass was everywhere. I did not know at the time, I came in a complete novice, a complete virgin to drugs and learned while I was there that grass was ubiquitous and that a significant portion of the guys in Vietnam when they were off duty, downtime in a relatively safe area, smoked dope. And then I eventually got involved with some of those folks and started to smoke myself, that is where I was initiated into. But the heroin that eventually racked the armed forces in Vietnam did not make it is entry until well after I left. It really did not become a big thing until 1970. And those who have tracked that story, who have researched and told that story many years ago, in fact, like Alfred McCoy for instance, in his classic book, the Heroin in Southeast Asia, I think it was called, or was it the heroin Traffic... I forget the exact name. I have a copy of it on my bookshelf. But it showed that, in fact, the big influx of it was almost overnight. The big influx of it took place sometime in 19... It might have been a spring of 1970 now. It was there before then, but it was as well as opium [inaudible], it was pretty much relegated to the Vietnamese or the Chinese ethnic minority in Vietnam. It was not popular among American troops, but Heroin did become popular tragically after about spring of 19- SM (01:33:24): Just in continuing the names here. KC (01:33:26): Yeah. SM (01:33:28): Ralph Nader. KC (01:33:30): Just [inaudible]. I do not have much to say about that. SM (01:33:36): Daniel Ellsberg. KC (01:33:38): He is one of my heroes with the Pentagon Papers, former Marine. I have to be sympathetic to the former Marine. A guy that certainly did his time in Vietnam as an advisor, and then worked in the Pentagon and got access to the papers and based on conscience, the people who follow their conscience I have a lot of respect for, who do the right thing, put the principle over personal advantage, and he is one of them. I have a lot of respect for him. SM (01:34:13): Now, you have mentioned a couple people that had that conscience to the effect of Daniel Ellsberg, can you just list some other ones from that era? For who you think [inaudible]. KC (01:34:22): Martin Luther King, certainly George McGovern, Bobby Muller, certainly. SM (01:34:27): Oh yes, definitely. KC (01:34:32): People who followed their conscience and risked a lot or maybe even sacrificed a lot to do that. Yeah, they are my heroes. I do not want to waste your tape sitting here, trying to think of more negatives, but I could come up with more if it was necessary. SM (01:34:50): George Wallace. KC (01:34:53): Never liked his politics, certainly he was a racist, but he was coming around at least to some kind of a conciliatory politics near the end of his life. Just he represents a negative image in my mind. SM (01:35:08): Richard Nixon. KC (01:35:10): Oh boy, tricky dick. I harbor more dislike... Hate. Okay, hate for Richard Nixon than I do for LBJ. Richard Nixon, as far as I am concerned, was far more responsible for prolonging that war than even most people understand and did absolutely everything he could to not only keep the war going, but hurt those who were legally and morally trying to oppose it back home. He was absolutely vindictive, absolutely. Vindictive is the word I could think of that would most associate- SM (01:36:00): Was the enemy's list as real as we... As it stated it is real in the history books? KC (01:36:08): Yes. He went after people and he had his executive branch bureaus and agencies go after people. So, it is well documented, whether it is IRS people he used, or military intelligence or CIA. I mean, it does not matter. And he used them illegally. I mean, the records clear on that. SM (01:36:42): This gets into the whole issue of the imperial presidency, there has been a book... Well, I cannot forget who worked with him now, the imperial presidency. KC (01:36:52): Oh, it is Schlesinger. It is Arthur Schlesinger. SM (01:36:52): Arthur Schlesinger. KC (01:36:52): Yeah, classic. SM (01:36:53): When did the imperial presidency begin? And where would you rate Nixon in that? KC (01:37:01): Well, I think you have to look at the 20th century as the era of imperial presidency. SM (01:37:09): FDR on? KC (01:37:10): No, even earlier than that. I would start with Wilson because of World War I and then FDR following him because of the Depression first and then World War II. It's the whole sense of national crisis and the need to centralize power in a national crisis. The willingness of the American society as a whole to defer in a special period and an emergency period and a period of real national crisis to a smaller and smaller group of people to make decisions so that they are able to do it quickly and with authority and with unity and all of those aspects one needs to have when dealing with an emergency. If there are 18 of you in a lifeboat and you are out there in the middle of the ocean, you cannot have 18 leaders. You have to figure out some way of pointing the boat and come up with somebody to make a decision. So, if there is a real national crisis, whether it is a world war or a great depression, the natural human, and in our political system, systemic tendency, and I do not think it's just in our political system, I think it is in any political system, the tendency is for a very frightened national population to want something to be done quickly about it. And the only way you can do that is by streamlining, even if it takes some temporary tweaking of the system legally to streamline the decision making so that decisions can be made effectively and quickly. Now that- KC (01:39:03): Well, that I think is not only natural for human beings to do and for political systems to do in general, but it is necessary, because you are talking about survival here. If it is a true national crisis, not a manufactured one. The problem was that, is that when the crisis lets up, you have to go back to normalcy, and you have to let loose those, peel back away those emergency powers that you have, the society has temporarily allowed the executive to take, the president in this case to take. And you have to be, and this is even more important, doubly on guard that some individual president, some president does not manufacture a crisis for you and usurp that authority and scare the hell out of the public with a pretend crisis. SM (01:40:02): Which the Gulf of Tonkin was, was not it? KC (01:40:05): Well, that is what I would say. Sure, yeah. Yeah. It was the creation of a national crisis. So, I think that is where the imperial presidency went wrong. I would not fault either Wilson or FDR for the powers they drew to themselves and used in those two world wars or the Depression, in the case of FDR, economically and socially, and during the Depression. Even in the areas where they overstepped their constitutional rights, because in those circumstances, the public was at least sympathetic, if not outright support of the president doing it, taking the actions he did, he took, and most of Congress generally agreed and did not, so that if you have got the public and Congress not objecting, the president can get away with it. And the President gets away with it, because, gee, it is a real crisis. And we have to survive. But once you are out of that crisis mode, and the Cold War was the structure that enabled fake crises to occur, you have abuse of those powers. And you have the runaway imperial presidency. SM (01:41:21): I know Tom Eagleton, he just passed away recently. He wrote a book on the role of the president to declare war. And it is a really good book. And the question always gets to me is we all knew about Wayne Morse, and I think the Senator from Alaska who- KC (01:41:41): Yeah, [inaudible]. SM (01:41:41): [inaudible] KC (01:41:44): It begins with a J. SM (01:41:46): They were against the war, but the other- KC (01:41:48): Gravel. SM (01:41:48): Yeah, but the other- KC (01:41:49): Was it Gravel? SM (01:41:50): No, not Gravel. KC (01:41:51): Oh, I am thinking of someone else. SM (01:41:52): Yeah, they were against the war. But the other (19)98, it was Wayne, because then of course you had Senator Fulbright and his challenge, and we all know what happened to him when he challenged President Johnson. And then Gaylord Nelson and that whole group. But why it took so long for Congress to... I guess- KC (01:42:13): Well, Congress- SM (01:42:14): Congress should have done more. KC (01:42:16): ... Congress is the sackless branch for no small reason. It does not have a backbone, in general. The exceptions or the principle, ones that will sacrifice their political careers for principle. But in general, just the way Congress is made, just the way it is instituted. It has meant to follow public opinion. It has meant to follow the electorate. It was the one that most closely represents the population, and it has meant to be a check on the tyranny of the executive. But that has a downside. The upside is that, yeah, it checks the tyranny of the executive. The downside is you cannot lead with 535 people trying to represent their constituencies, so that Congress defers in periods of crisis. And Congress defers because it knows its own constituency wants Congress to defer in a crisis, in a true national crisis. If it turns out to be a fake national crisis, first of all, Congress has to be convinced it is fake. And they generally give the benefit of the doubt to the executive, which the population does. And even if they have the evidence that they, Congress have as elites, and they are elites, have evidence that it is a fake crisis, they still will hesitate, because of opportunism, they want to keep their political careers, to go against the President, so long as the people yet do not know that it's a fake, have not arrived at the conclusion it is a fake crisis. And they may even hesitate to inform their people to let the secret out of the bag because they are afraid of what it might do to the system and to their nice state seat. So, there is a lot going against principle here. SM (01:44:16): Maybe- KC (01:44:16): There is a lot of structure, a lot of history, a lot of just human character going against principle here, so that I do not think we should be surprised. We should not accept it, that we still should be surprised that Congress is a sackless branch. SM (01:44:35): Wow. Yeah, it is interesting. Just bringing up, there should be some sort of test given to every leader that goes into Congress, the profiles and courage test. KC (01:44:44): Oh, sure. Yeah. Absolutely. SM (01:44:46): Require them to read the book. And if you do not pass this, you cannot be our senator or our Congressman. KC (01:44:50): Absolutely. That is right. And any elected official presidents too should be required to read that book. I was tempted to write a book not long ago called Profiles In Cowardice. SM (01:45:04): That would be an interesting thing, because I think students need to see the other side, because students do want- KC (01:45:10): And give clear examples of when you had people who should have stepped up, and did not. SM (01:45:15): Yep. Yeah. KC (01:45:16): The causes of that. SM (01:45:17): Yeah. In fact, I know that Caroline Kennedy wrote another follow-up book to her dad, which is a very good book, of people that she felt, and they give the Profiles In Courage award up at the Kennedy Library every year. And I remember reading the one about the congressman from Alabama, I forget his name. He wrote a book. He has passed away since, but I had never heard of this guy, and he got the award, so I wanted to, I never heard of this man. And then, he lost his seat because he was a man of conscience, and he has unheard of. And he got the award. He was in a wheelchair. KC (01:45:52): Yeah, very-very rare case. SM (01:45:53): Right. He was a Southern congressman who lost everything. And he was, yeah, Republican just does not act that way. KC (01:45:56): Yeah. SM (01:45:57): So, Spiro Agnew. KC (01:46:04): Spiro Agnew, what a reprehensible guy. What was that term he used? Effete snobs or something like that? In describing at least the leadership of the left. Well, of course, he... I say of course, because I know better now. Of course, he was right to a limited degree that the leadership of the left was pretty much upper class and to some degree opportunistic. But there were a lot of people in the leadership that worked, of the left, that were not. And I am sure the vast majority of people who followed the leadership were not effete snobs. So yeah, this guy was a... Agnew was, I put him at the level of the gutter. SM (01:47:05): He was [inaudible]. Let us see, some of the other, Gerald Ford? KC (01:47:10): Tragic kind of guy. He was a caretaker. Gil Scott Heron referred to him many years ago as Oatmeal Man on a... part of a record he called, Pardon me, Mr. President, a great rift he did. And I could not forget that. Could not help remember that when they were doing all of these eulogies honoring Ford after he died. And I kept thinking, "Boy." It's not that he was a bad guy, but he was not all that good. He was brought on because he was neither. He was as bland as you could be. And the system produced that. I mean, and the system needed that at that point in time. They needed somebody to follow in the heels of Vietnam and Watergate that would not divide the country further. And the country was so divided that they had to find somebody that the Democrats and Republicans could support, because after all, you are talking about somebody who was not elected either to vice president or to president. And that is the other anomaly. It is not just the end of Vietnam and Watergate, but it's also making somebody president who was never elected to either of those offices, president or vice president. And they knew when they brought Gerald Ford in as vice president, that the president was not going to be around for very much longer. I mean, they were pretty much sure of that. So, they knew that he would be, so that is why they chose him. He was a tweener. He was a bridge. He was just, in that sense, he had a strength in that he could accommodate both sides in a principled way. I think he was probably a pretty principled guy, but he was tragic in a sense that he got to clean up after all that. SM (01:48:56): How about Jimmy Carter? Because when Jimmy Carter came in, he- KC (01:49:00): Oh, Jimmy. SM (01:49:00): ... pardoned all the... KC (01:49:01): Yeah. SM (01:49:03): Does he play into any of this? KC (01:49:04): Well, that was a good move on his part, and that was courageous of him. But his courage was limited. Carter's idealistic side has always been overplayed since he has left office. We tend to think of him now as the kindly human rights, Habitat for Humanity, healing, elderly statesman. And everything he has done in those realms is good, and I will give him credit for that. But he also has to take responsibility for some of the nastier stuff he did, which was to become a born again warrior, Cold warrior when he heard the footsteps of Ronald Reagan getting closer and closer in 1979 and 1980. Because we have Jimmy Carter to thank for the B-1 bomber, for registration for the draft, for increasing the size of the military, for much of the militarization that Reagan then launched into was begun by Jimmy Carter, who finally, "Saw the light," in his words of the Soviet bear after 1979, 1980, after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, a crushing of solidarity, that kind of thing. You have a guy, who for a short period of time, becomes the most saber-rattling warrior that, just as bad as any one of the Cold War presidents for a very short period of time, because then he loses the election, and he has to leave office. But it not only coincides with increasing of crises with the Soviet Union. If one were to be overly kind, one would say, well, he got that way because he actually saw what was going on around. But I think more tellingly coincided with the poll numbers getting closer and closer between him and Ronald Reagan. He tried out to out-Reagan Reagan, and nobody does that. SM (01:51:13): Yeah. You lead right into Reagan, because Reagan has got a history here too, as the governor of California, disliked by students at Berkeley and a lot of students around the country. He seems to be a voice that symbolizes the establishment. And then, of course, with being president. And then that whole issue, even when George Bush is vice president, when he came in, I think it was George Bush Sr. who said, "The Vietnam Syndrome is over." KC (01:51:41): Yeah. Well, he said that when he was president. SM (01:51:43): Oh, he did say that as president? KC (01:51:44): Yeah. He said that at the end of the first Gulf War. SM (01:51:46): Yeah. KC (01:51:47): "We finally kicked the Vietnam Syndrome," that is the quote. SM (01:51:49): Yep. KC (01:51:50): Well, he was full of crap on that issue. He just did not understand it as well as some of us who have spent so much time looking at it. But in fact, that that experience that he was summing up, that first Gulf War in 1991, reaffirmed the Vietnam Syndrome. It did not undercut it at all. At least it reaffirmed that, certainly among those in the military who believed that they learned lessons from the Vietnam War, which was to sort of the Powell Doctrine approach, which was to make sure that not only you have sufficient military strength to go after your enemy, but you win over the public, you win over Congress, that there is a real national commitment, yada, yada, yada. All of that was strengthened by the Persian Gulf War, so that, and historians now looking back at that period have come to a consensus that in fact it did strengthen the Vietnam Syndrome, because it was still around during the 1990s. It did not go away during the 1990s. SM (01:53:03): That is why when you talk about Vietnam period and why people have such an alarming reaction, obviously, is all the activism and all the other things. But so many lessons can be learned about how we deal with people, how you build trust, the concept of serving your country and what it truly means. KC (01:53:26): Yeah, and a lot of them are bad lessons. SM (01:53:28): Yeah, a lot of bad lessons, but a lot- KC (01:53:30): I mean, in the sense that you have a lot of contradictory lessons. SM (01:53:31): ... You learn a lot about human nature. Yeah. KC (01:53:34): As you know from my book, that it depends on who you ask as to what the set of lessons are. And they often conflict with each other. There are too many lessons of Vietnam, and they contradict each other. SM (01:53:44): What are your thoughts on Barry Goldwater and the conservative movement, the Bill Buckleys, and American, some of the things that really upset a lot of conservatives in the last couple years, so, I interviewed Lee Edwards and a couple other people, is that they have been totally left out of the anti-war movement. The Young Americans for Freedom were against the war. There were conservatives that were against the war. KC (01:54:10): I did not realize that. SM (01:54:10): Yeah. And- KC (01:54:11): They were probably Libertarians, right? Are you talking about against the Vietnam War or against- SM (01:54:14): Against the Vietnam War. KC (01:54:15): Yeah. Yeah. I did not realize that. Perhaps they were against it because they thought it was not being fought properly. Perhaps they were against it because they did not think enough force was used. SM (01:54:25): How important was Barry Goldwater in this era, though? Because he- KC (01:54:28): Oh, he was critically important in the sense that he was what Johnson feared on the right. Johnson feared the left, and Johnson feared the right, and tried to split the difference. And Goldwater was his fear on the right, so that in Johnson's mind, it seems to me, gradually escalating with ground troops beat the hell out of dropping the nuclear device on Hanoi, which he thought Goldwater, or some people thought Goldwater wanted to do. But it also was a hell of a lot more acceptable than just saying, "Well, we will give up Vietnam. We will withdraw." And in Johnson's view, that is that world, Munich appeasement lesson that you do not accept peace at any price. You have to take a firm stand, or sooner or later the Red menace will be in Isla Vista or Long Island or somewhere like that. SM (01:55:30): What about Muhammad Ali? KC (01:55:33): Muhammad Ali. SM (01:55:33): Cassius Clay. KC (01:55:34): One of my heroes, and I remember when he was Cassius Clay, I followed. As a young kid I loved... I paid some attention to boxing, and I loved Cassius Clay. I loved Rubin Hurricane Carter, Cassius Clay, and Benny Kid Paret, who was a Philadelphia fighter who died in the ring, yeah. SM (01:55:52): He died. Yeah. I did a paper on him in college on against boxing. KC (01:55:58): Cassius Clay, yeah. I certainly did not understand his whole black Muslim conversion and his refusal to accept be drafted, because again, I was the kid and a teenager in a white working class, largely racist neighborhood that was afraid of any militant blacks. Anybody from a black community took not only a firm stand, but a firm militant stand, who was willing to fight, and that was my sense at that time. But that is a gap in between my admiration, beginning with Cassius Clay and then carrying on after I got back from Vietnam, of course, and turned against the war. But also just as a boxer, his comeback. I would listened to the radio in 1976 to that Zaire fight. SM (01:56:55): Oh, yeah. KC (01:56:55): You could not watch it on television, but I listened to the round by round summary of it when the radio broadcasted summaries of it from Zaire. I just loved that, that rope-a-dope thing. I was a big Cassius Clay fan. SM (01:57:14): Do you think- KC (01:57:14): [inaudible] Muhammad Ali fan. SM (01:57:16): When you look at his stand against the Vietnam War, boy, some people go after him, but some admire him when he would fall into your conscience? KC (01:57:28): Well, I admire him now because I have a different take on the war now than I did when I was a kid, when he was, I think it was in (19)67, was not it? That he refused to go to the draft? SM (01:57:40): Yes. KC (01:57:42): And I was a senior in high school, and then in bootcamp, and then preparing to go to Vietnam. That was my whole 1967. And my only impression of Cassius Clay was from the neighborhood and from my family background, from the social era, social milieu that I was in. And I was very apprehensive and put off by Clay's... I was disappointed in him. I thought that a great fighter like that, I could not understand it. It was just too much for me to grasp. SM (01:58:25): But when he beat Sonny Liston, I know, I thought nobody beat Sonny Liston. That guy was a- KC (01:58:29): Yeah, he was huge. I remember seeing Floyd Patterson knock out Ingemar Johansson, and the film reel at the movies in between, and I will never forget it, and out cold on the floor. His foot shook. He had those tremors or whatever they call them. I was a big fan of boxing. SM (01:58:56): We cannot, been just mentioning men, but people like Gloria Steinem. I have only got about 10 more minutes. Gloria Steinem and the leaders of the women's movement. Your thoughts on... KC (01:59:07): I think first of people like Bella Abzug and Betty Friedan. They, to me, were the earlier ones. And Gloria Stein probably was around or right after them, or right, maybe the later part. That was also something that I had trouble grasping, understanding, did not get on a visceral level or a gut level or an immediate reaction level at first, but all of this was taking place in the context of me becoming anti-war. And I began to adopt the politics of the left in general, and have a far more open mind there to some of the things I did not immediately get, and therefore became acceptable and tried to understand and incorporate that in the way I lived and the way I understood the world. But it was not on the same sort of gut level as Vietnam. SM (02:00:05): What are your thoughts that some of the women complain about of that era, is that in the anti-war movement and the Civil Rights Movement, women were secondary figures? That men were male dominant, and they put women in secondary roles, and that is a lot of the reason why the women went out on their own to create the women's movement, because the secondary rules in both of those movements. KC (02:00:29): Well, I think it is true in general, and it is true in particular in most organizations, but that is not the end of the answer, because it was more or less true with certain organizations in certain periods. I think that if you are talking about (19)66, (19)67, you're going to find a lot more of that. If you are talking about (19)70, (19)71, you are going to find a whole lot less of that, because women were being far more assertive and taking leadership roles, if not on a national level, at least on a local and regional level, a lot more. And it depends on the organization too. For instance, resistance, which was based in Philadelphia, resistance to the draft, and they had the Omega as the sign [inaudible]. SM (02:01:14): Oh, yeah. Right. KC (02:01:16): And Vietnam Veterans Against the War were very close. They supported us a lot because they worked with active duty GIs. That was their specialty at Fort Dix, at the Naval Hospital, other military bases. They did GI organizers, and they knew that the better they got to know us, the better they could speak to the GIs. Or perhaps they just knew by working with the GIs how to relate to us when we came back. And we actually shared offices together, we socialized with each other, etc. And that was a largely women's organization, all women in leadership there. SM (02:01:48): Very good. KC (02:01:49): And they actually taught us a lot about how to deal with women in the movement. I mean, I was not familiar with women who did not shave their legs and did not shave their armpits until I met women from resistance and did not wear bras. By that point, most young women were not wearing bras. SM (02:02:07): Right. KC (02:02:07): So, that became fairly common in the culture at that time. SM (02:02:11): Right. KC (02:02:12): But what was not common in the culture was having really hairy legs and really hairy armpits. SM (02:02:18): You see that over in Europe and Germany. KC (02:02:20): That is right. It was very European- SM (02:02:21): Yeah, very European. KC (02:02:23): But it became strong among women who were strong and on the left in America. SM (02:02:30): We have a professor. I will not even mention her name. I'd better not. KC (02:02:34): Yeah. Okay. Not on tape. SM (02:02:35): Not on tape though. Finally, the Watergate Committee people, Sam Ervin, Baker Thompson, even Weiker, the Watergate Committee- KC (02:02:47): Yeah, I know them well. SM (02:02:48): Just your thoughts. John Dean and that whole situation there. KC (02:02:52): Well, I am so happy Congress stepped up and took a leading role in that case. It may sound as though what I just said contradicts something earlier, that the Congress cannot lead because they are the sackless branch, 535 them, etc. But there are exceptions, and again, national crisis, but in this case, created by an imperial presidency creates the room for Congress to be that exception. Does not mean that Congress will automatically step into that vacuum, but the vacuum and real leadership in a crisis, because it is clear to much of the nation, most of the nation, the president's taking the wrong direction, Congress has to step up and fill in that vacuum, because there is not no other branch to do it. The Supreme Court by its very nature is passive and waits for cases to be brought to it, and cannot play that kind of leadership role. So, it has to be. If the imperial executive is leading in the wrong direction, and not only manufacturing a national crisis that was not there, but creating a national crisis because of the imperial presidency, then Congress had better step up. And in this case, the Watergate Committee and much of the new leadership and that, old leadership and new leadership, the Joe Biden and so forth, that were brand new coming in, and that Vietnam generation that came in, they stepped up and they played a good role, but it took also others, like good leadership among some principled, courageous journalists to do that. And it took the conditions of the American public being prepared to support that too, being not only ready but overripe for that kind of thing. Because again, Congress, the limit, even in a national crisis created by an imperial president, the Congress is still going to want to make sure that they have their asses covered in some way before they step out there, and the coverage is to have public support for it. SM (02:05:02): When did the (19)60s begin? When was the magic moment when the (19)60s began? By the way- KC (02:05:07): In my view? Or history's view? SM (02:05:09): By the way, my book's title is going to be The Magic Moment. KC (02:05:14): Yeah. Are you talking about in my personal view or in history? SM (02:05:16): No, in your personal view, what do you think was the beginning of the (19)60s and when did the (19)60s end? Was there an incident? Was there a happening? KC (02:05:28): For me, the (19)60s began as the (19)60s that we know and love or hate, depending on what their perspective is, in 1965, when I first sat around late at night listening to a Bob Dylan album, as people around me were drinking and smoking dope and talking about controversial issues. I forget whether it was about the war or civil rights, but clearly had a non-establishment, if not an anti-establishment attitude. And that occurred at a Benedictine seminary. SM (02:06:09): Oh, my God. KC (02:06:11): My uncle's Benedictine seminary. It was a monastery, but they trained seminarians there, Benedictine seminarians in Hingham, Massachusetts. My uncle was the abbot. SM (02:06:24): Oh, my God. KC (02:06:24): And I was up there with my brother as guests for their annual picnic, and after the picnic was over, and after everything was cleaned up, and people were going to bed, some of the young seminarians asked if we wanted to join them in the tower, which they had this big tower. They still have it there, big stone tower. You could hang out in the tower, and just talk and hang out. Well, they were playing Dylan. I mean, I was Motown all the way or-or classic rock or whatever you want to call it, and they are drinking, and they are passing joints around, and they are talking about social issues. And in a clearly critical way, as their attitude. I mean, this blew my mind. Now, after that, left and went right back to my own very conventional working-class situation. That did not change me, but that was my first peek at it. That was my first peek at an alternate, alternative lifestyle. Let us put it that way. If I were to pick anything, that is the one thing I can think of, the very first glimpse of an alternative lifestyle. And after all, that is what the (19)60s was supposed to be about. SM (02:07:51): Right. It is like my brother, when he got married in 1985, the priest that married him was young, and his music he played in his office was Led Zeppelin. KC (02:08:06): Oh, Jesus. SM (02:08:06): My brother said, "What have we gotten ourselves into?" He was a legend. KC (02:08:11): By the way, if my uncle ever had gotten wind around, he would have had a stroke. Honest to God. We never told anybody about that. My brother and I just only recently talked about it again, and see, I did not realize. I do not think I remember. I cannot clearly recall seeing the dope being passed around, but my brother, who was two years older than me told me, "Oh yeah, they were passing around marijuana. They were smoking marijuana." I am not sure my brother ever smoked marijuana before, so it is not like something that he would make up, but I know they were drinking and playing Bob Dylan and talking and acting in alternative ways. These were seminarians. I do not know how many of them remained in there, but actually several of them did because we met them many years later. SM (02:08:56): When did it end? KC (02:08:58): When did it end? SM (02:08:58): For you? KC (02:09:01): I think (19)70, '72 was the end, the loss of McGovern's campaign, the overwhelming reelection of Nixon. The war was over for all intents and purposes. The war was not over for the Vietnamese, but the American involvement was over. After that it became... I mean, the war for me is the most direct connection to the (19)60s, the most, I guess the brightest characteristic. And yeah, one of your very first, if not the very first question about what is it about the (19)60s? It's the war, right? SM (02:09:38): Yeah. KC (02:09:39): Well, the war was... That was the last I was active in 1972 because I figured it was pretty much all over. It was time for me to move on and do other things. I mean, I still remain very active in an alternative sense, but not with the war. SM (02:09:56): What did that helicopter flying off the rooftop- KC (02:10:00): That was (19)75. SM (02:10:02): ... In (19)75, how did that strike you? Just seeing that on the news? KC (02:10:05): Well, I felt it was much too late. SM (02:10:08): Yeah. KC (02:10:09): This should have happened a long, long time before. There would be hell of a lot fewer deaths. We should not have gone in the first place, and it is happening much too late. I did not feel a kind of loss or anger or alienation that I suppose some veterans did. But for me, it was a good thing that that last helicopter was finally leaving so the Vietnamese could have their own country back. And I thought it should have happened a hell of a lot earlier than that. SM (02:10:48): We are going to end with, I got about 15, 16 words of an era or an event. Just very, very quick responses. KC (02:10:57): All right. SM (02:11:00): Number one, Woodstock. KC (02:11:03): Oh, I think of my time floating around in the Mediterranean, still in the Marines and on a ship, and reading about Woodstock in August of, or September of (19)69, as we got the latest Life or Look Magazine, whatever it was in. And I am thinking how cool that was. I wished I had hair that long at that point. I had side, high and tight cut of the Marine Corps, and you're only allowed two to three inches on the top in the middle of your head. I just could not wait to get out. I was back from Vietnam by that time, so I was done with that, but I still had time to do the Marine Corp. I could not wait to get out, could not wait to join them. SM (02:11:44): Black power. KC (02:11:46): Frightening at first. Understandable, eventually tragic in the end. SM (02:11:52): Communes. KC (02:11:53): Commune? SM (02:11:53): Communes. KC (02:11:53): As in commune? SM (02:11:55): Communes. KC (02:11:55): Like a commune? Like a hippie-dippy commune? SM (02:11:59): Yeah, communes. Yes. KC (02:11:59): Yeah. Attractive for a while in my most- KC (02:12:03): Attractive for a while in my most hippy-dippy phase, but then too idealistic. I never could bring myself to trying to live on something like that because I did not think it could survive. And I thought that life in established American society would inevitably take over, would engulf it and swallow it up and make it disappear. SM (02:12:30): Hippies? KC (02:12:30): Hippies. I think I was one. Sometimes some of my old friends tell me I was not because... Well, I must have demonstrated too many of those old establishment or conventional, not establishment, but conventional traits. But I enjoyed it the two or three years I think I was a hippie, with few cares and few resources, little money, living cheaply, hitchhiking. I hitchhiked across the country several times. You could do it then safely with long hair and a beard. Hung out with people in lots of different places. I enjoyed that. But sooner or later, you have to grow up and take responsibility. SM (02:13:20): Yippies? KC (02:13:21): Yippies. Assholes. SM (02:13:24): Counter-culture? KC (02:13:28): A good idea for a while, until you jarred the prevailing culture, and there was a sense of necessary change. But after that, it becomes less and less relevant. SM (02:13:43): Pentagon Papers? KC (02:13:45): Loved them. Great thing that they came out. SM (02:13:49): Chicago Eight? KC (02:13:51): Heroes to some degree, in a sense that they took a stand and suffered through that trial and the fear of long prison terms. But they were, other than that, a pretty diverse group. That is my sense of them, that they were not a close-knit group of people. They were all snatched up together doing the same thing. They were very different people. Dillinger and Bobby Seale are tremendously different people. SM (02:14:23): Oh yeah. And Tom Hayden- KC (02:14:25): And Redman and- SM (02:14:28): The Rubin and Hoffman. And they got the lesser known John Froines and yeah- KC (02:14:31): Yeah, not Redman. Not Redman. I guess Redman was not part of it. Who was Redman in, SDS or something like. I forget. Anyway. SM (02:14:36): Oh, Mark Rudd. KC (02:14:37): Mark Rudd, yeah. SM (02:14:39): He was in SDS at Columbia. John Lennon? KC (02:14:41): John Lennon, fellow atheist, imagining a world without God. SM (02:14:53): Good movie out. US Versus John Lennon, which just happened recently. KC (02:14:57): Yeah-yeah, yeah. He was a good guy. I think he probably was a little temperamental and could not get along as well as he probably should have tried to with his buddies, but he was part- SM (02:15:11): How about the Beatles? KC (02:15:12): Just the Beatles. Yeah. I love The Beatles, but they are not what I consider to be my youth's music. Motown. SM (02:15:26): Oh, yeah. KC (02:15:27): City kid dances, fuss times, dating, listening to music on a radio, slapping on that English leather. Motown. SM (02:15:37): Motown, because that is the music of the year. Because when you think of the music of the (19)60s, you think of Motown, but you also think of- KC (02:15:44): The Beatles- SM (02:15:45): Woodstock, all the rock bands, the folk singers. KC (02:15:47): Well see, Woodstock was after I went to Vietnam and after I came back. So that, to me, I am an adult. That is no longer my safe home, comfortable, great carefree time of shelter to some degree. We were living in a poor working class neighborhood. You're exposed to some bad stuff, but nevertheless, you still have a family, a house, a neighborhood, kids you go to school with. There is a normalcy there and a carefreeness, because your parents, you are not having to work. I had to work part-time, but you know. You know what I mean? SM (02:16:19): Yep. KC (02:16:20): You do not have to take adult responsibility yet. By the time Woodstock happened, well, I was hippie-dippy. I am still not taking adult responsibility, but I took responsibility to lead politically. I did do that. And I took care of myself. I managed to pay the bills. SM (02:16:34): Kent State and Jackson State? KC (02:16:36): Kent State, Jackson State. Triggers for my radicalization. The first trigger was of course the invasion of Cambodia. That son of a bitch, Nixon led. And then Kent State and Jackson State were reactions to that. And then my reaction to Kent State and Jackson State were, because there were demonstrations within days of the invasion of Cambodia, and were protests against the war because of the Invasion of Cambodia. And I am at home, not politically astute at all, not involved in any way. Could not even conceive myself involving any war movement. I am out of the service only a couple of months, and I see this stuff on television, and I cannot believe this war is not ending. I had a gut level of revulsion against the war because I did not think it was worth anything. It was stupid. It was a lie, I knew that much, because the leaders, my leadership, military and political leadership were telling lies about what we were really doing there, and what the people there actually thought about our presence. But I had no political consciousness as an activist yet. But boy, that me pissed off, the Cambodia, and then went right on into Kent State and Jackson. Mostly Kent State, because of course I could relate to the white kids more. SM (02:17:52): See, April 30th, to me, is a big day that we do not ever think about that much. Particularly the boomer generation. KC (02:17:58): What was April 30th? SM (02:18:00): April 30th was the invasion of Cambodia. KC (02:18:02): I always thought it happened around May first, but definitely April 30th. SM (02:18:04): May 4th was when the killings took place. KC (02:18:05): That is right. SM (02:18:06): But April 30th was also when the helicopter went off the roof. KC (02:18:10): See, I was not traumatized by that. SM (02:18:13): April 30th was also when- KC (02:18:13): Good enough. Close that chapter. SM (02:18:14): FDR died. KC (02:18:15): Is that right? SM (02:18:15): What is amazing is that April 30th and Kent State had so much bearing on me because I was a senior at SUNY Binghamton, and I broke my arm. I was in the hospital, had a very bad arm break, and I went to my graduation at SUNY Binghamton on May 17th, but May 7th was when the Grateful Dead were coming to our campus. I was looking forward to it. KC (02:18:37): Oh, boy. So, you are two years older than me. I just did the math. You were graduating from college in 1970. SM (02:18:43): I graduated college in 1970. KC (02:18:44): So, you graduated from high school? SM (02:18:45): (19)66, yeah. KC (02:18:45): So, you are one year older than me. I am sorry. SM (02:18:45): Yeah, (19)66. KC (02:18:49): (19)67, I graduated. SM (02:18:50): Yeah. But Kent State was just unbelievable. It has affected me my whole life. Because even when the tragedy of Virginia Tech took place, and they talked about the worst tragedy ever around the... It was terrible, all the killings and everything. But we seem to forget the four students who died at Kent State, the seven who were wounded, and the two who died at Jackson State. We cannot forget them. Universities pay tribute to the Montreal, the women who were killed in Montreal in (19)89, and they had the Women's Center paid, and we have ceremonies, and it happens all over the country. KC (02:19:27): And the women were killed for what? SM (02:19:29): The doctor who came and killed the nurses. KC (02:19:31): That is right, yeah. SM (02:19:32): So, Montreal (19)89. And so we paid tribute to the tragedy of the women dying. But you could not even bring up paying memorial service to the ones that died at Kent State. It is activism again, it is bringing up all the past. KC (02:19:44): Well, it is because it is politically controversial, and universities do not like political controversy. It makes their trustees nervous because it makes the potential donors nervous. SM (02:19:55): Yeah. When I think of, I went to the Remembrance ceremony at Kent State 35th, and I went there and I spent the entire four day... There is no question to me that when you look at Sandy Scheuer and Bill Schroeder and Jeff Miller and Allison Krause, that they were destined to do good things. You look at their background, their families, what their majors were and everything else. The tragedy is that we lost those four, and then we lost the two at Kent State. And I do not know about one of them. I mean, Jackson State. But to me, that tragedy sticks with me because it is part of the Vietnam War. When I go to the wall in Washington, I know they did not die in Vietnam, but I see them all the time there. Here is some names, just quick responses. President Q? KC (02:20:50): Sleaze bag. SM (02:20:53): The other one, I forget. KC (02:20:54): Key? SM (02:20:54): Yeah, General Key? KC (02:20:56): Yeah. SM (02:20:56): We almost brought him to Westchester. KC (02:20:58): Yeah. A better dressed sleaze bag. He always used to wear an Ascot. SM (02:21:05): William Westmoreland. KC (02:21:07): Oh, God. War criminal. SM (02:21:13): How about Creighton Abrams? Neighbors found him. KC (02:21:19): Probably tried to do the best he could with a bad situation. SM (02:21:23): The two ambassadors, Ellsworth Bunker and Henry Cabot Lodge? KC (02:21:28): Bunker, I do not know much about Bunker, other than he was largely ineffective in dealing with the Vietnamese. Cabot Lodge was far more effective, but in a sneaky CIA way. SM (02:21:45): Dwight Eisenhower? KC (02:21:51): A president that was seen as very inactive in the Cold War, that actually was very active in covertly making sure that the dirty deeds were being done covertly by the CIA. SM (02:22:14): Do you think Vietnam went all the way back to Truman, when he rejected the letter from Ho Chi Minh? Because Ho Chi Minh had written a letter when we first became president, and he did not even acknowledge it because he was a communist. KC (02:22:27): Well, I would trace it back to Truman, but not for that reason. You could reject the letter and still not get yourself involved in Vietnam. America became deeply involved in Vietnam. That is why we are here. America's involvement began under Truman, with Truman's winking and a nod to the French using American equipment, to American money, American equipment, American uniforms, rifles, to win the front door of France for the purpose of solidifying France as a bulwark against the Soviets rolling into Europe, going right out the back door to Indochina. Truman knew all about that and increasingly supported the French effort in Indochina covertly. So, he takes the initial blame and everybody else gets in line after that. SM (02:23:22): It is a long line. couple other final ones here. The beats? KC (02:23:28): Oh, the beatniks? What do you mean, the beats? SM (02:23:30): Yeah, Marilyn Young, the history professor at NYU said that she felt the (19)60s began with the beats. KC (02:23:37): Yeah. See, she might be a little older than me. Yeah. The beats were... SM (02:23:42): Kerouac and Ginsburg. KC (02:23:44): I know who they are in history, but they were not real to me at the time. To me, the beats were what I saw on television. People in berets going, "Hey man..." SM (02:23:56): Maynard G. Krebs. KC (02:23:56): Maynard G. Krebs. That is right. Dobie Gillis. That is where I associate, that is the beats as far... Or the TV show called Bourbon Street Beat. SM (02:24:07): Cannot remember that one. KC (02:24:08): Yeah, that was not a long-lived one, but anyway. SM (02:24:11): (19)62 Missile Crisis? KC (02:24:14): I thought I was not going to live very much longer. I thought that was going to be pretty much it. We all certainly went to church a lot more, or synagogue, or wherever our beliefs led us, fearing that the country would go up any day in thermonuclear disaster. SM (02:24:37): The astronauts. 1969, Neil Armstrong. KC (02:24:40): The astronauts, yeah, pride, but not as much pride as the Europeans had, because I was in Europe when that hurt happened in (19)69. And when we went ashore from the ship, whether it was Spain, or France, Italy, that is all the people we're talking about around that period of time, how great this was. "You Americans had put somebody on the moon." And we said, "Oh, that is cool, and then give us another beer." We thought it was cool, but we did not take it as that big of a thing. But then again, all of us had been to Vietnam, so our own risks, to us, were more immediate, more memorable, and in some ways more direct than what we thought the astronauts were. They had, I think, a better chance of surviving that trip than many of us did going into combat Vietnam. SM (02:25:37): How about that Cold War, and we know that the Cold War was started right after World War II, but Cold War and Vietnam? KC (02:25:44): Well, some trace it all the way back to the establishment of the Soviet Union in 1917. And World War II was just a temporary break, a marriage of convenience between Stalin and FDR and Churchill, and that we went right back into our anti- Soviet approach after that. But one has to point out the exception, it was FDR that recognized for the first time, formally recognized Soviet Union in 1933 when he came into office. So he was at least willing to deal with them. But Cold War, what a huge mistake. I probably differ from a lot of other of your respondents in that sense. So, I think the entire Cold War was a mistake. SM (02:26:27): John Wayne? KC (02:26:30): Great movies, but certainly not like real combat people. SM (02:26:37): He played all those roles. KC (02:26:42): Played all those roles, and all of us who watched him developed all these myths about what combat really was like. SM (02:26:46): Cannot think of anything else here on. Make sure I covered it. Well, the generation gap, too. What is interesting today is there is obviously, I like your thoughts on the generation gap during the (19)60s, but comparing it today with the generation Xers, and even some boomers and their kids, they have never been closer. They are involved in students’ lives, and there does not seem to be any generation gap between generation Xers and millennials, or even the older boomers and millennials. What is happening there? KC (02:27:16): I think it is there, but it is more subtle. Unless you define gap in a certain way, that it takes a real qualitative aspect to it. That is, we are not talking about degrees here. We are talking about something in kind. One could say that, yeah, there was a generation gap among many during the (19)60s, of those boomers with their parents, but not all. I mean, again, we would have to sit down and say, okay, in reality, what percentage of boomers were truly alienated from their parents? And if I had simply come back from Vietnam and did what so many other Vietnam veterans did, there would have been no gap. I would have just simply come back to the life I led. I would have gotten a job or continued to go to church on Sundays with my family, and there would have been some differences because I have been in a war, certainly. But the gap would not have been there. I think the generation gap is most clearly evident between those who took, certainly that 15 percent who took leadership or acting role in a sustained way in the movements of the (19)60s and their parents. But for the other 85 percent, I would take a hard look at that before I would judge that as a gap, because I know a lot of people just simply went home and lived their own lives, and there was never any real gap. SM (02:28:34): What is your perception of the media's role in coverage of the Vietnam War, and coverage of social issues in that timeframe comparing to today? Some people think it is irresponsible that today's media is basically being controlled. That favoritism, for example, access to the White House, is that if you are in with the White House, you are favored, you get access. Has that always been the case, or has a Woodward and Bernstein type of a mentality gone? Investigative journalism? KC (02:29:02): Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Because we still have it. Seymour Hersh is still writing good stuff. Nobody's thrown him in jail. Nobody's tapped his phones lately, that I know of. Well, I am sure the NSA is busy tapping everybody's phone, tapping their cell phones and intercepting their email. But he does not seem to be singled out on anybody's enemy list or anything like that. You can still do investigative journalism to some degree. You do not have to anymore to some degree, because it is just not necessary because there is so many media organizations, outlets, forums, whether it is in cyberspace or print media or whatever, that there is a great deal of competition to constantly expose stuff. The Bush administration cannot keep it secret for God's sake. As powerful as they became in their most powerful years, the earliest years, when the neocons were truly on a roll, and they were doing some truly what I considered dastardly stuff. They still did not have full control, even over their own people, let alone everybody else. So, it has been a lot of stuff. A long list of books have come out critical of this war. Tell-all books from the administration itself, whether you are talking about inside the intelligence community, inside the military, inside the White House. Wherever you are talking about, there has been a lot of stuff uncovered that is been uncovered faster and in a broader way than ever happened during the Vietnam period. And I just think it is a difference. It is a difference in the technology. It is a difference in the times. We did not have cyberspace back then. We did not have the internet back then, so you are going to have differences. So I think the media plays pretty much the same role now as they did then, only in a much different way, because their communications facility, their communications tools in an information age are much different and much better than they were back then. The media plays just as good and just as bad role as, say, other institutions like Congress in these political controversies. Congress waits until they are absolutely sure public opinion is at least turning to their side, if not on their side, before they will act. The media is the same way. The media did not turn against the war first and public opinion followed. It was vice versa. Public opinion according to that polling figures that John Buehler and many others have come up with show that the public opinion swayed against the war before Walter Cronkite ever stepped out and said, "I think we have a stalemate here. We better think about new ways." So that the media does this. Why? Because the media has to sell those papers, sell that airtime, sell those advertisements, and they need to, as a responsible institution, be careful before they go out on a limb. They are careful. So, they are careful that the public has already turned against them before they start, as a mainstream mass turned against you. Of course, among the public, you have a fringe that turns against it earlier, and you have a fringe in the media that turns against it earlier, The Nation, or Ramparts, or something like that. So, I do not fault the media. I do not honor them for doing great things, and I do not condemn them for doing bad. They are doing what they are supposed to do. I cannot condemn them any more than the desert for being hot or the wind for blowing. SM (02:32:22): I keep coming up with questions here and we are going to end this, but I keep going back to Dr. King about one of the statements he made in one of his speeches that the Vietnam War had a disproportionate number of African Americans who served in that war. And when you got down to the wall in Washington, there is a disproportionate number of African Americans who were on that Wall. KC (02:32:43): How do you know? SM (02:32:44): See, I do not know. But then of course, this Dr. King, he died in 1968, and there were other people that died after (19)68, through (19)73. The question is this: the role of minorities in the Vietnam War, and you have made reference already that they at many times did not have any choice but to go through service. Some of it did it to better their lives, because they did not have any other alternatives. KC (02:33:11): Probably because they were drafted, probably because they did not have a job. SM (02:33:12): What was it like when you were there in terms of, we have already talked about drugs, but in terms of black, white, Latino, white, Native American, we have heard about, there has been some things written about Native Americans being thrown to the point because they were natural and- KC (02:33:33): Good trackers. SM (02:33:34): Good trackers, and then a lot of them died because of that. KC (02:33:36): I do not know about that. SM (02:33:37): But Asians, In terms of what was it like, and secondly, just being there, how strong was the anti-war movement amongst the troops? KC (02:33:47): Okay. That is a lot to answer in a short time, but I am going to try and do it briefly. SM (02:33:50): Do it short. KC (02:33:55): The area where there was clear and obvious tension between troops in Vietnam was between black and white troops. That is not to say that there were not racial tensions between Hispanics and whites, Hispanics and blacks, Asian, but I do not remember any Asian Americans in the units that I was in, but certainly Native Americans here or there. I do not recall anybody being singled out and put on point because of any of that, whether they were Native American or black or white or what. But I do recall that there seemed to be a higher concentration of black troops in grunt units, combat units, than in the Marine Corps in general. And I have heard and read and seen figures, I do not know how hard they are, that indicate that that was true in the Army as well. But then again, I have read since I started doing research on the war, that those figures are soft, and that the real story says that blacks did not die in any higher proportion than whites. So, I do not know what the actual figures are, or whose figures to use, but my personal experience tells me that there was a higher concentration, a disproportionate concentration of black troops in the grunt units. They still were not the majority. Whites were still majority of grunts, but if blacks were making 10 to 20 percent of the population up around that time, there was probably 30 or 40 percent of marine grunt units. When I was there in (19)68 and (19)69, they were blacks. Now the tension between there was manifested mostly when one was in the rear. The further in the rear, the more tension. The closer to the bush, the less tension. Because the closer to the bush, the closer to the danger, the more you needed each other. And the bush, you did not let those arguments get in the way. And you were your brother's keeper. And back in the rear, there was a luxury to take on political questions like that in that sense, social questions or whatever. And people could start to congregate among the cliques and shun others. And actually, at the worst times, get into fist fights, gun fights, knife fights, that kind of stuff. So that that is... And then either in Germany or Japan or back in the States, it was even worse. So the further got away from combat in Vietnam, the more the hostility. Because by (19)69 and (19)70, the hostility, you could cut it weather nice. It was so thick. It was really bad. At Camp Lejeune, we were getting ready to go on this med cruise after I was back from Vietnam, getting ready in August of, July of (19)69. And had a big going away party, I did not attend the party, but for the battalion, I was part of the battalion going away. They had a fight in the enlisted man's club after the club let out, and two people were killed, and a bunch were seriously wounded. And it was a racial fight. And by the time we had to leave the next day to go embark for Spain. But by the time we got to Spain, they were waiting for us. The Criminal Investigation Division with witnesses and a motorized, this box of wheels that had only a slip of everybody to get off the boat, single file, and picking out people that were part of this fight. They got shipped back for a trial. And that was a really bad scene. You could not go around a military base without several other people for fear of being jumped, knifed, robbed, maybe just simple robbery, drugs. I mean, the military was coming apart. There's no security on the military base. That was a bad scene. SM (02:37:37): Any final thoughts that you'd like to mention here, or anything that I maybe did not ask that you were expecting me to ask? KC (02:37:43): Yeah, Mỹ Lai. Why no Mỹ Lai? That is my question to you. SM (02:37:54): That was on my list here. I did not read it. Mỹ Lai. Yeah. KC (02:37:55): Well, on a much smaller level, much smaller level, far more typical in Vietnam, that is that killing innocent civilians, purposely killing innocent civilians, two or three or four at a time was not all that uncommon in Vietnam. Sometimes 10 or 20 at a time. Mỹ Lai was unusual that it was four or 500. That is what made it unusual. SM (02:38:15): And that it was Kelly and Medina, the names. KC (02:38:15): Yeah, sure. SM (02:38:15): Kelly got off, and they... KC (02:38:15): They got pardoned by Richard Nixon. SM (02:38:27): Okay. And Medina, whatever happened to him? KC (02:38:29): He was found innocent. Acquitted. SM (02:38:32): We had Country Joe McDonald on our campus a couple of years back, and Dan [inaudible 02:38:35] were in a dinner. KC (02:38:35): An old friend of VVAW. SM (02:38:35): No, he is a good guy. And he said that, Jan, did you want to tell Steve and everybody else in the room why there were no prisoners of war on the other side? They were only talking about on this side. And he wanted me to tell, and he was kind of making a reference to that there were no prisoners of war on the other side, that Americans took them. They gave them to the South Vietnamese troops, and the South Vietnamese troops summarily killed them all. KC (02:38:59): Well, they kill a lot... From my understanding, from my evidence, I did not experience it firsthand. I certainly had experience with prisoners of war, but they got passed on and I did not know where they went. But I found out later they did get turned out in South Vietnamese government, but not always right away. Often the Americans, usually Americans are targeted first, and then South Vietnamese, and it was not all that unusual for those detainees, those Viet Cong suspects or confirmed VC during the interrogation to somehow die, or certainly be seriously injured. And there were various ways of doing this with, field telephones, or water torture, or half a chopper ride. SM (02:39:42): Yeah. I heard the story about how they took them up in the helicopter. KC (02:39:45): Yeah. You never wanted to throw out the important one. You threw out the one that you knew did not have any information, to intimidate the important one. But again, I did not have any firsthand experience with this, but I certainly have been among enough Vietnam veterans, and some of them took pictures of this stuff. I mean, that is what sealed it with Mỹ Lai. If it was not for the journalists taking pictures, and then those pictures by other journalists being distributed through Life Magazine, Mỹ Lai would have passed largely as no big thing, because you would not have had the pictures. We thought we were out. The pictures make it. The stories can occur, but they only go so far without pictures. You got pictures. SM (02:40:17): That is a very sensitive issue for Vietnam, that Mỹ Lai. KC (02:40:18): Absolutely. SM (02:40:19): That labels them all as baby killers. And they all come back at you- KC (02:40:22): That is the 15 percent. That is a figure that is really important. When I first brought that up to you, I said, it's relevant in certain ways, but I won't go into it. This is the connection. And I do not delve deeply into it, but just point out that those of us in the anti-war movement who were Vietnam veterans, who began to talk about, and I did, as a young man, began to talk about what we saw or did ourselves, that were either possibly or probably war crimes, did not take care enough, did not understand and know and take care enough, to make that distinction between the 15 percent that were in combat, and 85 percent that were not. So that it looked like we were saying all Vietnam veterans. And what we were saying was not that... We were also saying that we do not hold most Vietnam veterans responsible, directly responsible for this. We hold their commanders, and especially the people in Washington who created the conditions for this to happen, like free fires on a body camp, all those things to put pressure on the uses of the Geneva Convention, who looked the other way, et cetera. But what I understand today that I did not understand then, and can tell people about, is that most Vietnam veterans deny that that ever happened because they never saw it. And they did not ever see it because they were never in a position to see it. You had to be part of the 15 percent to have a chance to see it firsthand. So, when a Vietnam veteran says, "I never saw anything like that." Well, 85 percent of them certainly did not see anything like that, because they were never in a position. And of the 15 percent who did some of those did not say anything because their particular commander did not let them do that. None of them. It has been buried among the commanders, too. And the time you were there, a lot of more about the early part of the war than later in the war. SM (02:41:47): Back in 1974, my very first job at High University of Lancaster campus, outside of Columbus, there was a Vietnam vet that had an office there. And I can remember that when they were hiring at the university, we were talking about affirmative action for African Americans, Latinos, Asian Americans, Vietnam was not even an issue. KC (02:42:00): There was for Vietnam veterans, yeah. SM (02:42:00): Vietnam veterans are having a hard time sometimes getting a job because they were labeled. KC (02:42:00): They are still federally considered protected under federal law. Still protected. Equal opportunity protection. So those Vietnam veterans who absolutely deny the atrocity stuff you have to ask him, "Were you a grunt?" If you were not a grunt, you're probably not going to have had a chance to see any of this stuff. Well, they are sure did not happen anyway, but they wanted [inaudible] prior to the Vietnam war. SM (02:42:00): He was a little older. He had been in the service and very close to he and his friends. And I remember he was joking. Tell them the real story, how there were no POWs. And the POW stories and other issues, there is a brand-new book out now on POWs, that it has been a conspiracy all along that [inaudible]. America knows darn right that there are people over there. There are still people filing out. [inaudible]. KC (02:42:00): Always a ton of stuff coming. SM (02:42:00): How can you say there were no POWs [inaudible]. KC (02:42:00): I suspect it is horseshit. That does not sit right with those right-wingers. How can anybody want to say [inaudible]. SM (02:42:00): Thank you very, very much. KC (02:42:00): You are welcome. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Kenneth Campbell Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Campbell, Kenneth ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Political scientists; College teachers; University of Delaware; Campbell, Kenneth--Interviews Description An account of the resource <p>Dr. Kenneth Campbell is a scholar, reseacher and political scientist. Dr. Campbell is a Associate Professor Emeritus of Political Science and International Relations at Universtiy of Delaware, and he is the author for several journal articles and a book titled <em>A Tale of Two Quagmires: Iraq, Vietnam and the Hard Lessons of War</em>. He has a Bachelor's degree in History, as well as a Master's degree and Ph.D. in Political Science from Temple University.&nbsp; Dr. Campbell served in Vietnam during the Vietnam War in 1968 and 1969 and received a Purple Heart for his bravery. Due to his expertise in international affairs, he has testified before Congress on the Iraq War.&nbsp;<br /><br /><br /><br /></p> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2002-07-14 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.183a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.183b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 163:15 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7abb528c678f65a58bd003b43d4591e5.jpg 6d77606fb6e6cb32921e3be855686068 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/7bc8d9c906aade1bdb46f862efbf7d46.mp3 4b96568b30755b012594537ef3fc9188 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Eugene Schoenfeld, 1935- Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld is a psychiatrist, author, lecturer and was a popular underground newspaper columnist. His column \&quot;Dr. Hip\&quot; was published in many newspapers including the Chicago Sun Times, Tampa Times, San Francisco Chronicle, and the San Francisco Examiner. Schoenfeld's books include Dear Dr. HipPocrates, Natural Food and Unnatural Acts, Jealousy: Taming the Green-Eyed Monster, and Dr. Hip's Down-To-Earth Health Guide.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5039,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld is a psychiatrist, author, lecturer and was a popular underground newspaper columnist. His column "Dr. Hip" was published in many newspapers including the <em>Chicago Sun-Times</em>, <em>Tampa Times</em>, <em>San Francisco Chronicle</em>, and the <em>San Francisco Examiner</em>. Schoenfeld's books include <em>Dear Dr. HipPocrates</em>, <em>Natural Food&nbsp;and Unnatural Acts</em>, <em>Jealousy: Taming the Green-Eyed Monster</em>, and <em>Dr. Hip's Down-To-Earth Health Guide</em>.</span> Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Baby boom generation; Activism; STD; Birth control; Drug culture; Women's right; Summer of love; Segregation; Watergate; Vietnam War&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:513,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;12&quot;:0}">Baby boom generation; Activism; STD; Birth control; Drug culture; Women's rights; Summer of love; Segregation; Watergate; Vietnam War</span> Date of Interview 2010-10-14 Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 149:55 Subject LCSH Psychiatrists; Authors, American--20th century; Schoenfeld, Eugene, 1935--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Eugene Schoenfeld Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 14 October 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:04): Good morning. Good evening. And, just the first question I want to ask is could you give me a little bit about your background, your early years. You are a doctor, a little bit about your parents, your growing-up years, and why did you want to become a doctor? ES (00:00:25): All right. My mother was an immigrant. She came from Russia when she was 12 years old. Her parents had been separated by the First World War, and then by the Russian Revolution between 1913 and 1922. So, my mother, her younger sister, and their mother, my grandmother, were separated for nine years from my grandfather, again, because of first the First World War and then the Russian Revolution. My father's family also came from Russia. Actually, he came from Lithuania, and my father's eldest brother was born there, and then the family came to the United States. My father was born here. My father had been a union organizer, at time I was born, for the Transport Workers' Union, New York City, and that was a leftist union. My father was involved in leftist politics. In fact, he was a member of the Communist Party, and gave me my middle name, which is Lenin, L-E-N-I-N. SM (00:02:02): Oh. ES (00:02:02): A name that I stopped using after the Rosenbergs were executed- SM (00:02:07): Yeah. ES (00:02:09): ...especially when applying to medical school, thinking- SM (00:02:14): Yeah. ES (00:02:16): …that would not have been good. SM (00:02:17): No. ES (00:02:18): I was delivered by my uncle, who married my mother's younger sister. I think that influenced me to be a doctor. It was curious, also, because he was related to the infamous Arnold Rothstein, who went to the 1919 World Series. SM (00:02:46): Oh. ES (00:02:49): When I first learned about that when I was a child, I asked my parents, they would not talk about it. It was a scandal. Especially at that time. SM (00:02:59): That was the Black Sox scandal? ES (00:03:01): Yes. SM (00:03:01): Yes. ES (00:03:03): Yeah, so he was a great uncle by marriage to me. SM (00:03:10): What was it like going to college or medical school in the (19)50s, particularly undergraduate school before you went on to med school? ES (00:03:20): I graduated college from the University of California at Berkeley. I went to high school in Miami Beach. My parents moved to Miami Beach when I was 12, and I went to high school there and then a year of college. Then, I transferred to Berkeley. I went back to Miami for medical school, beginning in 1957. Well, it was very different from Berkeley, at that time. Berkeley has always been a liberal area. It always has had at least some population of what was known then as Bohemians. Then, it was smaller. Now, of course, it was larger. It was quite a shock going back to school because medical school was much more regimented than- SM (00:04:18): Right. ES (00:04:19): ...the undergraduate years at Berkeley. Also, at the time I went to medical school, we still had segregation in the South. And in fact, at the hospital where my medical school was training students, Jackson Memorial Hospital in Miami, there were still segregated wards and segregated dining rooms for whites and blacks. I met a resident at the medical school, who had started eating his meals in the black cafeteria to integrate it, and I started doing the same with him. His name was Tom Brewer. It was very different. I was glad to leave Miami that time. I graduated medical school in 1961. I interned at Herrick Hospital in Berkeley, even though I was offered a prestigious internship in Miami, partly because, during medical school, I had met Ernest Hemingway's youngest son, Greg. And in the beginning of my second year of medical school, he invited me to go to a photographic safari to Angola the following summer with his roommate, Bob Kyle. And I told one of my professors I was going there. He said, "Well, as long as you are in Africa, in that part, why do not you see if you can visit the Albert Schweitzer Hospital in Gabon?" Because, at that time, the chief medical doctor under Albert Schweitzer, Frank Catchpool, had done some studies at the University of Miami Medical School in parasitology. So, I had a note of introduction to Dr. Catchpool, and I was able to, after our photographic safari in Angola, this was now the summer of 1959, I went to Lambaréné, and I met Albert Schweitzer and his daughter. And I was there, then, for two weeks. And when I returned and told one of my professors my adventures that summer, he said, "Well, I have just been made head of a committee that is going to award fellowships to medical students to study in remote areas of the world." He says, "If you get a letter inviting you back to this Schweitzer Hospital-" SM (00:07:12): Wow, what an experience. ES (00:07:14): Yeah. He said, "You can have this fellowship." So, I did obtain a letter inviting me back by Albert Schweitzer, and I returned in (19)60, or I spent the summer there at the Albert Schweitzer Hospital. SM (00:07:34): I can remember back in the late (19)50s, Jack Parr used to have a fascination with Albert Schweitzer and would I actually go visit him. ES (00:07:42): Yes, there were many, many visitors there. SM (00:07:47): Yeah, that was- ES (00:07:48): Yeah. SM (00:07:49): That experience itself, even before we start talking about your time in the Bay Area as in the (19)60s and the (19)70s and beyond, that experience of working with him for a year or two, what were you able to transfer into your future positions from that experience? ES (00:08:10): Well, his major philosophy was reverence for life, for all life. And this was the first exposure I had to, what is now called, ecology. Nothing was killed there unnecessarily. If they were doing construction work, rolling a wheelbarrow, and they came across a line of ants, they would lift up the wheelbarrow in order not to crush the ants. They would build around trees rather than cut down the trees. They tried to keep the hospital there as much like a native village as possible so that the area would be comfortable there. I had another chance to return there in 1965. Actually, it was through Greg Hemingway again, he is now dead. He died a woman. But he was offered this fellowship, but he could not do it and he recommended me. So, I flew to Boston and met with the head of the foundation, the International Cardiology Foundation, who is Paul Dudley White. Dr. White was President Eisenhower's physician. SM (00:09:45): Oh, yes. ES (00:09:47): And Dr. White was the one who really popularized the idea of riding bicycles you see now. So, then, I returned to Gabon while I was training to go there to do this research. It was a research project involving hypertension in Gabon because there were indications that was prevalent there, and it turns out that it was. And it seems to be a genetic predisposition in black people, and we see this here. We used to think that it was due to stress or racial discrimination, but it turns out not to be the case. During a few weeks before I was set to go there, Albert Schweitzer died. Dr. White asked me to go there anyway to conduct the research, so I had a chance to see the hospital before and after his death. Just before I left, I had an opportunity to take LSD. It was legal at that time. And so, I was, of course, interested in the effects of psychedelics, drugs in general. When I returned to Gabon that third time, I learned that native doctors there used a drug called Ibogaine. Actually, they used the plant that it comes from, the Iboga plant, in their ceremonies and for healing patients. And so, I had a chance to observe and participate in Iboga ceremonies there in Africa. And when I returned, on the way back, I stopped in France and obtained a quantity of Ibogaine, which was being prepared by a French pharmaceutical company. At that time, they would use small amounts of Ibogaine combined with vitamins as a pick-up tonic because small amounts of psychedelic, including LSD, act as a stimulant before they have the psychedelic effect in larger dose. They were also using Ibogaine at that time experimentally in French mental hospitals. So, when I returned to the United States to the Bay Area, I had a chance to do some work with the Ibogaine, and I was introduced to a doctor who had later started the free clinic movement, David Smith. See, I skipped a part where from 1963 to (19)64, I was at Yale University. I obtained a master's of public health there, and then that summer I was a ships doctor. That is it. Depression here. So, while doing work at the University of California at San Francisco, we were doing experiments with amphetamines on laboratory animals and some experimentation with the Ibogaine on ourselves. Dr. Smith had the idea of organizing the little free clinics that had been started by the digger movement, and I had an idea about having a newspaper column dealing with questions and answers about drugs and other issues at the time. Around that time, the Berkeley Barb was started by a fellow named Max Scherr. Berkeley Barb was one of the first underground newspapers. I guess The Realist was probably the first Realist Underground magazine. SM (00:14:25): Right. ES (00:14:30): And so, I mentioned this to Mr. Scherr and he said, "Well, why do not you write a column?" I had always wanted to write in some fashion, but I had not thought about writing for newspapers or a medical column. But I started doing that. At first, I would use questions that people had asked me personally because it was a time when people were first starting to use drugs, such as marijuana and LSD, and people were eager to have questions answered about those drugs, and also about sexual activities. That time there were no easily available sources of information answering questions about sex and drugs, certainly not papers. SM (00:15:27): One of the things, right around that time, (19)65, (19)66, leading up to the Summer of Love in (19)67, how did the youth of the (19)60s differ from the youth of the (19)50s that you grew up with from your vantage point? And where did you see this change in the Bay Area? Obviously there was some Bohemian lifestyle over at Berkeley at all times, and of course the Beatniks were very popular in New York and Greenwich Village and in San Francisco, and- ES (00:16:02): Yes. SM (00:16:03): ...so forth. But when did you see this shift, from your personal perspective, this big change happening in the way people's attitudes were, how young people were changing? It was a counter-cultural movement, a change. ES (00:16:19): Yes. From my point of view, I mean, maybe it was because I was living, but it seemed that it had started in the San Francisco area. Yes, you mentioned the Beatniks, and it was because it was a shift from the Eisenhower era. There were little coffee shops in San Francisco and in Berkeley. There was one called The Coexistence Bagel Shop because it was a time when speaking about coexistence with Russia after the Great Scare, the Evil Empire. So, it was a parody of the political situation at the time. I think that is when the shift occurred because people started to look at Russia not as a great enemy, but as something that we could exist with. That is why they call it Coexistence Bagel Shop. They were Beatniks. Mostly, the Beatniks were smoking cigarettes and drinking cheap wine. But there were some who started using marijuana, and that is when I first started seeing fairly large-scale marijuana use. Though my first exposure to it, though I did not use marijuana then, was an uncle I had when I was 14. It was in 1949. I had an uncle who he was an actor, a dance instructor, and went to borrow a jacket of his. In the jacket, I found this little yellow cigarette. I asked him if it was marijuana, and he said, matter-of-factly, "Yes." I did not try it then. It was my first exposure. The first time I saw fair numbers of people smoking marijuana was the Beatniks, and this was in 1958 because that summer, it was after my first year of medical school, I spent the next summer in Berkeley. That is when I first saw it. I think the combination of the philosophy and the lifestyle of the Beatniks led to the hippies. SM (00:19:23): Yeah. Obviously, you are coming from, you are not that much older, but you are almost like the graduate student or the PhD candidate compared to the incoming students that would have been the young boomers. Do you have any thoughts on them as a generation? You have seen them not only as a doctor, they have been your patients. You have seen them not only when they were young in the Summer of Love, but you have been able to see them as they have grown up into now. 63 is the front-runners of the baby boomers, and the youngest baby boomers are 47. If you were to list some strengths and weaknesses within this generation, can you list some? ES (00:20:07): Well, I think they had some strengths because their parents, which were generally more prosperous because the Second World War produced prosperity. At least, everyone was working as compared with when I was born, which was during the depression. So, I think they had more of a sense of self-assurance in that way, and I think it was because of the fact that their parents generally were not poor. They were not on bread lines. I mean, have not thought about this before this, going through this in my mind. So, I think that because of generally maybe having more assurance, they would probably be more open, less fixed on things that would give them more dependability. I think that produce some greater openness to other ideas. And that is what happened, as you say, leading up to the Summer of Love. I think they were more open to a lot of things, including more open sexuality and perhaps exploring their minds through means, such as drugs. And paradoxically, the drug use led to people being more open to ideas, which did not have things directly to do with drugs, such as meditation and yoga, et cetera, other spiritual practices. Not that all of that was good because one thing that has happened from all that is a suspicion and disdain for science, a feeling that if one has a gut reaction to something, that must be more true than using the scientific method, and that came from the fact that they would use drugs. It happens now. For example, when people are using ecstasy, they generally have a feeling of great love and warmth for everyone around them at the time. I mean, that is why, when ecstasy was legal and used in therapy, the patients would be warned not to make any enduring alliances for a period of weeks after they last took it because those feelings would dissipate and were directly drug related. SM (00:23:51): One of the things that the generation, and we are talking 74 million boomers that were born between (19)46 and (19)64, and a lot of the ones that were at the Summer of Love, were the front running boomers, the boomers born in those first 10 years. I am finding that the difference between the boomers of the first 10 and the second 10 is major in terms of the way they lived. But your thoughts on this attitude that many of them felt they were the most unique generation in American history when they were young, and that the Summer of Love, like a lot of experiences of that period, were supposed to be symbolic of this, "We are going to change the world. We are going to bring peace, love, we are going to end homophobia, sexism, war. We are going to make the world a better place to live." And so, there is a feeling of uniqueness that they were better and different than the World War II generation or any of the generations that preceded them, and those that would follow. Your thoughts on that attitude that many of them had at that time. And even today, I know of several people that feel so very proud of being part of that generation that they still feel it. ES (00:25:19): Yeah. I mean, that is because the war, the war effort, the country was together then, I think, as never before or at any time since, and there was a feeling that we had been so powerful. We had conquered the axis powers, and there was, for a time, a feeling of hopefulness. The United Nations was going to be world peace. I think that certainly influenced that generation. SM (00:26:04): I have interviewed a lot of people. Some people thought that that showed a sense of arrogance within this generation. Do you feel that? ES (00:26:11): Well, I did not think of it that way, but I think of it as being over optimistic. SM (00:26:25): Okay. 1967, I got a whole mess of questions here and I got a lot of different areas to go, but I want to talk about (19)67 because it was a very historic event. What was it like being a doctor in San Francisco in (19)67, and what were the major issues that young people were facing at that time in the summer, whether it be drug issues, sexual freedom issues? I saw a great interview you did on YouTube with one of the commentators. He has a radio show. Hammond? ES (00:26:58): Oh, yeah. John Hammond. SM (00:26:59): That was an excellent interview. ES (00:27:00): Well, thank you. SM (00:27:03): And you had made a very important comment, and I wanted to bring this up. It was after the pill, and it was before AIDS. ES (00:27:11): That is right. SM (00:27:12): Could you talk about what you mean by that, especially in reference to the summer of (19)67? ES (00:27:18): All right. The true Summer of Love began in 1966, because that is when it was the beginning of large-scale LSD use, marijuana use, and associated openness to things, including sexuality. And so, because there was no longer the great fear of unwanted pregnancy due to the birth control pills and other effective contraceptive method, and whatever sexual infections might develop as a result could be treated then. And that is why it was before AIDS is, before, sexuality could be [inaudible]. So, as I say, the real Summer of Love began in 66, and that is what attracted people to San Francisco, where I was at the time, the following summer, in (19)67. I had started writing a newspaper column in March of 1967, and I invited people to send questions. And of course, then, questions were mostly about sexuality and drugs. People wanted to know what sexual diseases could occur, what the effects of various drugs were, and I had to do some research in these matters. But I was very interested in the fact that some columnists apparently make up letters. I never had to make up a letter. The letters were very-very interesting. And I started out writing the so-called underground press, so I would print the letters pretty much as they appeared in whatever language people used to describe or ask questions about sexual acts. When the newspaper column went to the San Francisco Chronicle, and then was syndicated nationally by the Universals Press syndicate, language was edited then. ES (00:30:03): Your language was edited then. Then it would appear general newspapers. But as I said, there was no easily accessible source of information that it was available in books. I would read books, around that time also, I saw her doing radio shows, and I am told I was the first person to answer medical questions live on the radio. SM (00:30:36): Is that in the entire country? ES (00:30:38): Yes. SM (00:30:38): Wow. That is quite a unique honor. ES (00:30:42): Yes. I was glad to do it. I knew it was important because I mentioned a little while ago that I had Master degree in public health from Yale, so I knew the importance of public health education. I saw this as a way of importing information that was important, and it was interesting. So a number of times I have had regular radio programs. I mean, this was before Dr. Dini Dell. Before [inaudible] or Dr. Ruth was publicly doing things. SM (00:31:24): Right. When the Summer of Love obviously is (19)67. And when we say Summer of Love, are we only talking about the summer? Are we talking only about a few months? Or are we talking about The entire 1967 year? One of the songs this was well known on the radio at the time was Scott McKenzie's song, if You are Going to San Francisco. ES (00:31:50): Yeah. SM (00:31:51): I cannot remember if that came out in (19)66 or (19)67, but I know that had a lot of influence on people. ES (00:31:57): Yes, it did. Yeah, I knew him. I met him a few times. Yeah, it did have an influence. Yes, it was not just the summer. As I said, it really began (19)66 and during the end of (19)66 and beginning of (19)67 people were starting to come to the Bay Area. Yes, influenced by songs like that, which I think some of the lyrics described how warm and bombing it was in San Francisco made all of us laugh your – SM (00:32:33): Well, I lived in Burlingame from (19)76 to (19)83, so I – ES (00:32:38): Yeah, so you know. SM (00:32:39): I love it out there though. It makes you feel good. Tweed Coats. I love my Tweed. I miss wearing my Tweed Coats. But yeah, it is really interesting. Another song that influenced was around (19)67 that got people to the West Coast, and I know it got me to the West Coast, was the Mamas and the Papas song, California Dreaming, which was another big hit that, especially if it went to college in the middle of the winter with a lot of snow on the ground. I had all these questions here in the Summer of Love. How did it start? You already talked about that. What was the draw? How did people know? Where did they come from? What was the average age? ES (00:33:27): They were? SM (00:33:28): Where did they stay when they came? And those kinds of things? ES (00:33:33): Well, there were young people generally who came, if they knew people here, they would stay with them, crash with them, share their apartments and homes. They were generally, at first, there were people who were interested in exploring, in exploring. Exploring themselves, exploring their minds, exploring things geographically. Later it became a [inaudible] so that people were coming because they knew that other people were coming. So it changed a lot. At first, you could tell things about someone by the way they dressed or the length of their hair, but that soon changed, so you could not tell anything about a person because the followers, those who just had heard about the Summer of Love and San Francisco come and there were a lot of disturbed people and a criminal element soon came in and started taking advantage of the – SM (00:35:20): Yes. ES (00:35:24): Open-minded young people who we came to know as hippies. SM (00:35:31): I think that is what Mr. Hammond said in his interview with you on YouTube is that (19)67 was the golden era, and then all hell broke loose at (19)68. ES (00:35:42): Yes. SM (00:35:43): And that is because the drug traffickers were coming in. People were dealing in drugs, and actually even a lot of the hippies and young people wanted to get the hell out of there because of things had changed. ES (00:35:56): Yes, and even the drugs changed because at first it was marijuana and LSD and other psychedelics. And then people came in, started selling heroin and amphetamines that changed a lot. So when people want to leave, then there was a feeling, well, we were going to get out of the city and go to the country. And that is how the Commune Right then started. People had the idea that they would try to be self-sufficient and grow their own food, raise their own animals back to the plan. SM (00:36:44): Yeah. Farm's a perfect example of that. ES (00:36:47): Yes, that is right. SM (00:36:49): Steven Gaskin and I interviewed Steven for my book, and that particular, he does not even like to use the term commune. Calls it the farm. They have been very successful and they were very proud of being hippies because it was more of an attitude. When I look at, there was a very popular book, you remember back in the early (19)70s, we had to read it in grad school called The Making of a Counterculture by Theodore Roszak. ES (00:37:18): Yes. SM (00:37:19): And that book – ES (00:37:19): I knew him. Yeah. SM (00:37:20): Yeah, well, I wanted to interview him, but I guess he is not well right now, and he has written another book as kind of a follow-up, but he really explained the counterculture, combining drugs, the sex, the dancing, the music, the dress, the attitude. It was all a combination of everything into different consciousness. Did you see that there? Was that a pretty good portrayal of what it was like in the Summer of Love? ES (00:37:46): Yes. As I say, you could tell which people were part of that movement often by their dress, because they were static dress, people would dress flamboyantly. I mean now I tell my wife in Halloween, which is as a big holiday out here. SM (00:38:13): Yeah, that is big. ES (00:38:14): So in the Summer of Love, everyone dressed like that every day. So... SM (00:38:24): You were in charge, correct if I am wrong, you were in charge of the health clinic? The Haight Ashbury Health Clinic? ES (00:38:36): I was not in charge. I was – SM (00:38:38): Associate Director or – ES (00:38:41): Yeah, I was Director of the Family Practice section of The Haight Ashbury Clinic whose directed by David Smith. He founded it, he directed it. I worked with them for a long time, and then later they have a rock medicine section, still exists. I worked at that also. It was long after the Summer of Love. But yes, I did. I helped through my newspaper columns. I helped publicize the Ashbury Clinic, let people know it was available and offered free services and the kinds of services that they provided. SM (00:39:28): On a typical day, let us say you were there, were you eight hours a day? Or you came in just on an assignment or what would it be A typical day in the Summer of Love with the young people coming in and out of there? What would be their issues? ES (00:39:45): Well, some people had unfortunate drug experiences. Sometimes there was, and they were concerned, have a bad trip, an LSD trip, and were upset by that. There were a lot of sexually transmitted diseases that were treated in Ashbury clinic, especially at that time because of the open sexuality. Naturally, the more exposure someone has, the more chance they have contracting a disease. So there is a lot of exposure and more disease, a lot of treatment of gonorrhea crabs at that time. Other sexually transmitted diseases. SM (00:40:50): Well, I know one of the bands that performed there in the summertime was the Grateful Dead, and I think they lived in Haight Ashbury. ES (00:40:57): Yes. SM (00:40:57): And lived. They had that same kind of an attitude, although they were much more successful cause they were a successful band. Can you talk about the combination of that experience again in the summer or were you combined not only the young people coming in, but, the music had to be a very important part of this. It was much more than the Grateful Dead. Who were the musicians and where were they coming from to be part of this? Were they all Bay Area musicians or were they coming from different parts of the country during different times of the summer? ES (00:41:38): Much of it was based here in the Bay Area. For example, the Jefferson Airplane, the local band Country Joe and the Fish and other bands. I think, Crosby Stills and Nash often was based here. Crosby lived in Mill Valley at that time, and they also operated a lot in Los Angeles. But the music at that time, I mean it was all intertwined with the drug use, the effects of the drugs, effects of the drugs on the music, and then the music affecting drug use. I thought that generally the overall effect was positive. Of course, we know there were disasters for some people, plus it was a lot of indiscriminate drug use during that time. Tim Leary – SM (00:42:58): Hold on one second, I am going to change my tape here. All righty. We are back. ES (00:43:08): During that time, I became acquainted and then friends with Tim Leary and his family, and I became a family doctor for the Leary family at that time. And Tim was very charismatic, very bright. He had a good sense of humor, but I always found objectionable is it was sorting people to take LSD all the time was not for everyone. Certainly not for unstable people, and not to be taken all the time as he had proposed, he was telling people to use LSD once a week, and I did not think that was a good idea at all. SM (00:44:03): What is your thought about that famous slogan of his tune on – ES (00:44:10): Yeah, turn on – SM (00:44:13): Turn-on dropout or whatever. ES (00:44:14): Yeah. SM (00:44:15): Tune in turn on dropout. What are your thoughts on that? Of course, he was also linked to the Ram Dass. ES (00:44:18): Yes. SM (00:44:22): And Ram Dass went on to be very successful as a writer. I guess he has had a stroke recently, but – ES (00:44:25): He had a stroke. SM (00:44:27): But they were kind of linked too. But just your thoughts on that whole kind of an attitude? ES (00:44:33): Well, Tim had a great way of, with phrases, and I was interesting phrase and turn on and drop out. I said to him at the time, I said, Tim, you have got a PhD. I have an MD. You are telling these kids to drop out of college. And a lot of them did because there are more followers and leaders, and a lot of lives were disrupted that way. I did not think that was a good idea at all. And it was because of the indiscriminate use and abuse of LSD and other psychedelics that the legitimate use was thwarted. Only now, only in the last year or so has the government begun to approve studies of LSD and psilocybin and MDMA or ecstasy, and we are back to where we were in 1966 when they were doing the same preliminary studies. Maybe now they will continue them and permit them, but as I said, it was because of [inaudible] K was largely cost of 10 at 10 TC that yes, that the government clamped down and stomped. I think it is a great shame. I think these drugs have a very good potential for use in therapy. And when there is no psychiatric illness for self-exploration. SM (00:46:29): How would you, for example, a critic of, I am just using, I am being the devil's advocate here, that a critic of the total drug culture, maybe not marijuana, but everything else, is that, what is wrong with reality itself? Why get away from reality and go into drugs and get another reality? And then secondly, what is the effect that drugs had on that generation? I do not know if anybody's ever even written a book on the number of young people who died from ODing on drugs. We know what happened to Jimi Hendrix and Janice Joplin and Jim Morrison and some of the well-known people who OD'ed on drugs. You would think that might have had a negative effect on the drug culture. ES (00:47:16): Yeah, I mean, they all OD'ed on opioids, which I cannot see if they expand consciousness at all. I feel like this has the beginning of that. SM (00:47:33): Yeah, the beginning was critics, so I am a person – ES (00:47:36): So what is wrong with reality? SM (00:47:40): Yeah you know, is life – ES (00:47:42): One thing that the psychedelics do is put people in touch with the unconscious, which is part of reality. It is just that normally we do not have access that way to our unconscious except in dreams in some form. So by giving us access to our unconscious, we have an expanded knowledge of reality because that is part of reality. SM (00:48:25): What – ES (00:48:27): Thought that these consciousness expanding drugs produce a better reality, this expands our knowledge of reality. SM (00:48:42): Well, the 40th anniversary that took place in 2007, I saw little segments of that on television and certainly on YouTube and other places. ES (00:48:53): Yeah. SM (00:48:53): Was it basically people that experienced it coming back there, or was it basically a combination of young people and older people? ES (00:49:06): It was a mix, but certainly it included a large number of people who had lived through the (19)60s, many of whom had been at Woodstock, many of whom had been in San Francisco at the Summer of Love those celebrations, but there were a number of younger people. SM (00:49:32): How did you get the name Dr. Hipp? Dr. Hippocrates. ES (00:49:38): Right. Started when I was asked to do the newspaper column, the publisher of the Berkeley Barb Max Scherr said, well, what should we call the column? I said, well, what do you mean? Just use my name? Says well know we have a hippies here? How about calling it Hippocrates? I said, okay. SM (00:50:03): Right. ES (00:50:03): So it was Hippocrates. And then some of the newspapers started calling the column Dr. Hippocrates, and then some of them shortened it to Dr. Hipp, and then they started calling me Dr. Hipp. So that is how I became Dr. Hipp. SM (00:50:22): Now, when you walk around the Bay Area, do they call you by your real name or do they call you Dr. Hipp? ES (00:50:26): Well, some of the older individuals still remember me as Dr. Hipp. SM (00:50:33): That that is a very good feeling though. That you had an influence on people's lives for the better. And one thing we always ask ourselves as human beings is we want to make a difference in this world. And obviously you have in the many things that you have done, particularly with all your work in medicine. ES (00:50:52): Yeah, I have tried. I always gave a lot of attention to my work, writing newspapers, writing the papers, writing articles, doing my radio shows, because I knew that if people listened, they were eager to receive information and would act on it. So I was always trying to be careful about the advice that I gave. SM (00:51:22): Did you see the Generation gap when you were there working with these young people? In other words, did you have, I am sure there were experiences where parents somehow got back into San Francisco and found their son or daughter and said, we were going to take you home. Did you have any of those experiences where the big generation gap was taking place? ES (00:51:41): Yes. I mean, I cannot think of any specifics right now, but yes, of course parents were concerned because sometimes their children would run away. And then when they found their kids, their kids were using drugs that the parents were unfamiliar with, concerned about, and often, rightly so. Yes. And that is how the Gap stores the clothing stores. They used to be called a Generation Gap, and then they became The Gap. SM (00:52:18): Oh, I did not know that. ES (00:52:19): Yes. SM (00:52:20): Wow. Was also the Summer of Love really all-inclusive in terms of ethnic background? Were there African Americans there in large numbers, Latinas, Asian Americans? Was it a combination? Was everybody involved? ES (00:52:35): Yeah. Yes, it was. And part of what was happening was that there was a greater acceptance of different ethnic groups and races and religious beliefs. And that was one of the benefits of that time. SM (00:52:57): Was the music the same way? In other words, you might have the Grateful Dead one day and the Staple Singers the next, was it a kind of a different, all kinds of music? ES (00:53:07): Yes. And it was also when people started becoming interested in reggae, of course, and – SM (00:53:12): Right. ES (00:53:12): Reggae associated with marijuana you know in Jamaica? SM (00:53:20): Yeah. I remember when I lived out there, I used to go to some of the blues concerts at the Shell at Golden Gate Park. ES (00:53:28): Yes. SM (00:53:29): And I remember seeing Red, not Simply Red, the Rock Singer, I remember Red was his name. He is passed away. But it was one of the best concerts I have ever been at all day on a Saturday, I believe, of all these great blues singers. One of the other thing too is how, let us see, who were some of your mentors and role models yourself? People that inspired you, not only, you have already mentioned some of your relatives and people that influenced you to become a doctor, but were there people in America at the time that you looked up to, whether it be politicians – ES (00:54:11): Less or a lot of skepticism regarding so-called gurus and groups? I think that skepticism came from growing up in a communist house. Hearing and seeing the slogans at that time. And then in the (19)60s, those slogans, it was to me, seemed empty. Slogans were repeated, and I thought, oh yeah, workers are going to overthrow the bosses, things like that. So I never actively pursued any spiritual group or person. It usually would happen accidentally. Like being exposed to and having experiences with Albert Schweitzer, that was very important to me. I was close to him and to his family. And his daughter died about a year and a half ago, and she was 90, remained close to her, to her death because she lived then in Los Angeles Pacific lsa- SM (00:55:40): Right. You had mentioned that on your YouTube interview. ES (00:55:42): Yeah. So that was very important. I think that for a long time I spent a lot of time with Tim Leary, and during that time, got to meet a lot of people. There was a lot of traffic through his house. That is when I met from Ram Dass then as Richard Alpert, Ralph Metzner. And it influenced me at the same time that I was, by that time, I knew that matter how famous a person was, no matter how well known or how revered the person, he or she had play feet, just like Albert Schweitzer. I would see failings in him -blow was his greatness. So... SM (00:56:44): I can remember there was a scene with Timothy Leary, along with John Lennon and Yoko Oho and Tommy Smothers. I remember when he was doing in the bed. ES (00:56:54): Yes, that is right. SM (00:56:55): And I remember Timothy Leary was there. I said, this guy was everywhere. How did the city of San Francisco deal with all these people coming in? Was there a good relationship between the young people of the Summer of Love and the police and the political leaders at that time? ES (00:57:16): Initially it was okay, but then as more and more young people came, there was more concern, especially from the police. It did not, that period of goodwill did not last very long. Because again, because of the great numbers of people came, especially in the Haight Ashbury section of San Francisco, and the resulting situations, including the rampant drug use, camping out, being out begging. SM (00:57:59): Remember Harry Reasoner, the ABC did a report once on TV and I still remember seeing it, and it was when they were doing tourists going through Haight Ashbury. ES (00:58:08): Yeah, the Gray Line Tourists, you – SM (00:58:13): Yeah. And he was there for a couple of days, I think, doing a report. And what is interesting after living out there to see how expensive those Victorian homes now are that were in Haight Ashbury. ES (00:58:22): Oh yeah. They are all million-dollar homes now. SM (00:58:25): Yeah. It is amazing. In those days, they were kind of falling apart, I think. ES (00:58:31): Yep. SM (00:58:32): What is your, just for you to define things, I asked Steve Gaskins this too. If you could define in your words what a hippie is, what a beatnik is, and your definition of a counterculture. So first off, in your definition of a hippie. ES (00:58:54): Well, these were people who were willing to depart from the usual career paths that people took. They had a more open attitude towards sexual freedom, toward the roles of men and women. A greater appreciation for nature. Know the benefits of unspoiled nature, and an openness toward exploring their minds, whether it be through spiritual practices or through the use of drugs, or both. SM (00:59:53): And a beatnik? ES (00:59:54): Part of it. That is why, oh, they start it longhaired hippies. Well, started thinking, well, why do we have to cut our hair in a certain way? ES (01:00:03): ...do we have to cut our hair in a certain way? Why are neckties a uniform that one must wear? When you think about really, even now, why do people wear neckties? And we have buttons now to close our shirts. Need a necktie to do. It was originally done. So there was a questioning. People were asking questions. Remember one of the slogans at the time, question authority? So it was the willingness to question all kinds of things. Some of that did not lead to good things because over generations and hundreds or thousands of years, humans have learned there are certain things, certain ways to behave socially. When people indiscriminately did not follow those customs or habits, there were bad results sometimes. SM (01:01:31): Mm-hmm. Hold. Okay. How would you define a beatnik? ES (01:01:37): Well, beatniks, I think that came from, if I am not mistaken, Herb Caen coined that term. Herb Caen, the late columnist for the San Francisco Chronicle. First they were called the beats. I guess he felt beaten down by society. It was a style of drinking excessive amounts of cheap wine, smoking lots of tobacco. You are beat. You are trying to express the way that they felt at that time. SM (01:02:38): And lastly, how would you define the counterculture? Your definition of the counterculture? ES (01:02:46): Well, it was a reaction to the overall culture. So it was less conformity for the sake of conformity. And that led to differences in dress, the type of music that was composed and played. Art was just by definition counter mean quite the opposite of the general culture or against general culture. But when people found things in the culture that they found objectionable, they tried to act on it. SM (01:03:40): Vietnam veterans, obviously, I got some questions here on Vietnam in a minute, but there were Vietnam veterans even coming back, and I am sure there were some in the Summer of Love that had served already in Vietnam between (19)65 and (19)67. ES (01:03:56): Yes. SM (01:03:57): In looking at your biography, you worked I think in a veterans facility at one time. Did you see a lot of post-traumatic stress disorder of vets coming back? ES (01:04:10): You mean at that time? SM (01:04:11): Yes. ES (01:04:16): Yes, there were people who were traumatized. For example, I know Ron Kovic a little bit. Certainly he was traumatized physically as well as mentally. SM (01:04:34): Was it pretty common? Because I have been talking recently with some Iraq veterans who have come back from Iraq, and it was almost a hundred percent post-traumatic stress disorder within groups. ES (01:04:49): Well, it was not known then as post-traumatic stress disorder. You remember they call it shell shocked, battle fatigue, things of that kind. But as PTSD became better known, it was I think why there was more autism now. It was recognized more and reported more. I think that is why there is as much PTSD the Iraq War. In the Vietnam War, it was a great rejection of many of the veterans who came back, even though most of them were conscripts. The Iraq War were all volunteers. There is no draft now. But I think because of greater recognition and publicity about the fact that PTSD may occur. SM (01:06:06): When you were out there... Well, you have lived out there your whole life there. But there were some specific historic events at Berkeley. The Free Speech Movement in (19)64 and (19)65, Mario Savio and that group. And then People's Park in (19)69, of which one person was killed during that. ES (01:06:26): Yes. I was there during those demonstrations. I wrote about. I have published four books so far. The first two were based on newspaper columns, articles. I wrote about the People's Park in a book called Natural Food and Unnatural Acts. It was published by Delacorte. Yes, it was a tumultuous time. It was very disturbing and startling to be exposed to the National Guard so often, tear gas. I am very sensitive to tear gas. Tear gas is released near me, and I cannot stay around. So a number of times I was at the People's Park demonstration. SM (01:07:36): That was actually when Ronald Reagan was governor, I believe. When he came into power, he promised two things: that he was going to set the students straight, number one, and number two, that he was going to end welfare. And I know I have interviewed Ed Meese, who was the assistant district attorney of Alameda County, who was there at the Free Speech Movement. But he was not working for Reagan then; Reagan was People's Park. ES (01:08:06): Right. SM (01:08:08): And they had come really hard down on those people. That is part of the history of that period, but what effect do you think that had on the boomer generation as a whole? Because it was all over the news. ES (01:08:28): It was shocking. Well, first, there had not been large demonstrations by students, political demonstrations like that before, at least that I have been aware of. When I was a student in Berkeley, the only large demonstrations then were panty raid. I do not know if you remember the panty raids, but there were a couple of big panty raids at Berkeley where there were thousands of students gathered, and they would go into the sorority houses and rifle through the drawers and get panties. It was silly, but it was the first time that I saw thousands of people out in the street and then a police presence which followed. When it happened for political reasons it was dramatic, it was exciting, and it was disturbing. I had demonstrated against the Vietnam War, and I was at a protest at the Oakland Induction Center and this club there. But there I saw for the first time that these demonstrations might turn violent. I saw a police car overturned and burned, which I did not care for. I was then so recently coming from the experiences I had with Albert Schweitzer and Reverence for Life, that things should be hurt or killed unnecessarily. And I saw that turning very disturbing. SM (01:10:47): When did the (19)60s begin in your opinion, and when did it end? ES (01:10:51): Well, let us see. (19)60s, about 1963, I would say, (19)64. I know you are not talking about the literal terminology. About (19)63 I think it corresponded in a way with the assassination of JFK. I was a student at Yale at that time that it happened. SM (01:11:38): Do you remember where you were when you heard the news? ES (01:11:42): Yes. I was meeting with a faculty advisor, and his secretary came into the office and said, "The president has been shot and likely killed." This professor says to me calmly, "Well, these things happen." And he tried to go on with our meeting. I said, "Well, let us meet another time." So I remember exactly what happened. SM (01:12:09): And were you one of those individuals watching the TV all weekend? ES (01:12:13): Yes, to the TV then. I think that is when it really started. Maybe a little bit before with the Cuban Missile Crisis. SM (01:12:26): Right. (19)62. When did it end? ES (01:12:32): I think it ended with the Altamont concert. SM (01:12:38): You are not the only one that said that. Some people said they thought it ended with Kent State too, because that was a terrible tragedy. ES (01:12:45): Yeah, and that really dampened the student demonstrations. I know people I have talked to about that, some disagree, but I noticed that after the Kent State shootings, there were fewer demonstrations. Actually, people were afraid, rightly so. But I think it really ended at Altamont, because it was such a terrible scene. I was there. SM (01:13:14): Oh, you were there? ES (01:13:16): Yes. SM (01:13:17): Oh, wow. ES (01:13:18): I wrote about that too. That is also in the book, Natural Food and Unnatural Acts. SM (01:13:24): I got to get that book. Is that book still in print? ES (01:13:26): No. I think you can get it on Amazon or something. SM (01:13:28): Okay. I am going to order it then. ES (01:13:32): I always thought that book was a good history of the (19)60s. It was a terrible scene. It was so ugly. I did not go to a large concert seven years after. SM (01:13:49): I heard stories that the group responsible for getting the Hell's Angels there was Jerry Garcia. Is there truth to that? ES (01:13:57): Yes. SM (01:13:59): And he felt guilty the rest of his life? ES (01:14:03): Yeah, I think so. I knew him. They always had a relationship with the Hells Angels. Hells Angels were fans of the Grateful Dead. And they were asked to do security there in exchange for, I do not know, so many cases of beer. So it was a huge mistake. There was an interview later after that with Sonny Barger, who was then the head of Hells Angels. He said someone kicked their motorcycles, so they were in a rage about that. SM (01:14:52): They killed one person. Did they injure other people too? ES (01:14:55): Yes, there were other people injured. There were other people injured by Hells Angels, no one else killed by it. There was another death there. There was someone who was run over by a car accidentally. SM (01:15:10): Was not the Rolling Stones performing when that happened? ES (01:15:13): Yes. SM (01:15:15): Did the concert end? ES (01:15:17): No. SM (01:15:17): It kept going on? ES (01:15:18): It kept going on. Mick Jagger did ask people to calm down. The part of the problem was that, well, first it started off as a nice day, then it became overcast and gloomy, and everyone was waiting for the Rolling Stones to go on. They would not go on until dark fell. By that time, things were unruly. And the concert had been put together at the last minute. Anyway, that is the site, I think the last minute, it was a kind of frenzy that developed. And then the Rolling Stones would not go on until dark fell. And then Mick Jagger was singing Sympathy for the Devil and doing that. The Hells Angels, during that time, they were beating people with a pool cue. SM (01:16:20): And they were in the front of the stage and to the left and right of the stage, I guess. ES (01:16:23): Yes, and the stage was not high enough so that people could attempt to go on the stage, and they were pushed off and hit by the Hells Angels. SM (01:16:34): Were the Hells Angels drunk? ES (01:16:40): I do not know what they were using. I do not know. I have had various dealings with them over the years. I do not know if you know anything about my current work or not. SM (01:16:53): I do not. ES (01:16:56): I do a lot of consulting with lawyers in both civil and criminal cases, usually about the effects of psychoactive drugs, but sometimes other issues as well. So sometimes lawyers for the Hells Angels have asked me to help in their cases. And sometimes they have been referred to me or their wives for treatment, either for drug abuse or for their other issues. SM (01:17:36): Is there one specific event that you feel had the greatest impact on boomers, that is those born between (19)46 and (19)64? You may have already said it, but do you think there is one event that more than any other shaped this generation? ES (01:17:53): Well, it was not one event, but I think you know that Woodstock epitomized a lot of things that were happening. It involved music, drug use, large crowds at that time being able to get along without a lot of disruptions, a lot of fights. I think that and what it represented was probably. But it was not any one event like that. It was the Vietnam War. SM (01:18:48): Do you like the term the boomer generation? I say that because I have had a lot of different opinions from people. And if not the boomer generation, what would be a better term? Would it be the Vietnam generation, the counter-culture generation, the Woodstock generation? What do you think best applies to this group in terms of terminology? ES (01:19:15): I would say the Woodstock generation, the Summer of Love. Except the Summer of Love, just by definition, specifies one summer. Whereas even though Woodstock generation refers to one event, it really refers to more than one event. SM (01:19:41): You have obviously seen boomers from many different angles over the years. And I know you cannot talk about 74 million here, but do you think that boom generation has been good parents and now grandparents? In other words, have they sat down and shared their experiences with their sons and daughters over the years, what it was like then, get a better understanding of the times? I always get at the term activism, because some people say the generations have followed have not been as activist as their parents. Although only 15 percent probably were active to begin with in that generation. ES (01:20:23): That is right. SM (01:20:25): In your practice, have you had issues where a lot of the boomers feel they have either not been good parents or good parents or kids having issues with their parents? ES (01:20:42): Yes, but kids have always had issues with their parents. You see some things now. I have had several patients who were named Che after Che Guevara, just as during the (19)60s and (19)70s, would name their kids things like Krishna and Sunflower, Willow Wisp, names that they might not use later. But I think to myself, this is interesting. I know what it is like to be given the name that one might not have chosen for himself. I was given the name of Lenin. So when I see people now that are named Krishna or Che, it kind of amuses me in a way. I do not know if there are better or worse parents. I think that those who went through these years have had experiences and have had a different sense of reality and hopefully an expanded sense of realities. Maybe they could be better parents. SM (01:22:15): Let me change. Just changing my tape here. Very good. I am back. Where was I here? ES (01:22:23): You were asking where the boomers were [inaudible] SM (01:22:25): Yes. I want your thoughts. You have obviously lived in the Bay Area. You have seen the Summer of Love. You have seen the protests against the Vietnam War. You saw the Free Speech Movement, for which I think is one of the most historic events ever in higher ed, because that was my career. And when you talk about freedom of speech, you got to talk the Free Speech Movement. But of course, the protests against the Vietnam War and the Love. But I would like your thoughts on, there seemed to be at that time, in this late (19)60s and early (19)70s, a more camaraderie between the movements. The Civil Rights movement, the gay and lesbian movement, the Chicano movement, the Native American movement, and the women's movement, and of course the environmental movement and the anti-war. ES (01:23:17): Yes. SM (01:23:17): In fact, in 1970, before they even did Earth Day, Senator Nelson and Dennis Hayes met with the anti-war people to make sure that they were not stepping on their turf. And they worked together, and they supported it a hundred percent. And the rallies, you saw signs all over the place. I do not sense that today. I sense rallies now where it is single issue. It is the issue they are involved in. Do you sense that too? ES (01:23:46): Yeah. In fact, you mentioned the Free Speech Movement. I am distressed by the suppression of free speech now on college campuses. If there is someone who expresses views that some students do not like, they will Mao them. They will shut them down. They will not permit them to speak. It is distressing to me. Whether it is someone from the right or the left, I think freedom of speech and of the press are the most important freedoms that we have. SM (01:24:25): I agree. ES (01:24:25): There is nothing else. Without them all the other freedoms go away. SM (01:24:34): Yeah. I interviewed Dr. Arthur Chickering, I do not know if you know him. He was a great professor who wrote Education and Identity, which was a required text in grad programs in higher ed. We had to read it; it was required. It was the seven vectors of development in human beings. And when I interviewed him about three or four months ago, I just asked him his final thoughts on what was going on in higher ed today. And he said the universities are now controlled again by the corporations, and he was very upset about that. That was what students were fighting for in many respects in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, is that the corporate takeover of universities, and of course research institutions are part of it. And there is good positive things there, but it seems like everything is bottom line today. That anything that threatens the bottom line you cannot have, so that includes controversial speakers. They talk about free speech, but in reality they are fearful of it for fear it could affect the bottom line. Do you feel that is what is happening in universities? ES (01:25:45): No, I was referring to student groups that suppress free speech. SM (01:25:51): Right. Well, I see that too. But you do not see universities doing it too? ES (01:25:56): Yes, and it is disturbing. It is like creeping fascism. It is part of this marriage of business and government. That is how fascism originated. In fact, that is the definition of fascism, really, is corporate government. And the bad things of fascism develop from that. So that when you have corporations controlling government and governmental institutions, including colleges and universities, yes, it suppresses free thought. SM (01:26:50): It is interesting that today the people that run the universities are the boomers too, and Generation Xers, which is the generation that followed. ES (01:26:59): Yes. SM (01:26:59): And so they experienced everything from the (19)60s. And like your thoughts, I sense there is a fear of the term activism on university's campuses. Volunteerism is a safe term. Activism is a scary term, because it is almost 24/7, and it is much more challenging, and it brings back memories of the past. Do you feel that is present? ES (01:27:26): Yes. It is certainly a change, and it is not a good change. SM (01:27:38): There is two basic questions I have been asking every interviewee. One of them is a question that was organized and put together by a group of students I took to Washington DC in 1995 to meet former Senator Edmund Muskie. They were not born at the time in 1968, but they wanted to ask him a question as the vice-presidential candidate about everything that was happening in Chicago that year. This is the question they came up with. Do you feel, Senator Muskie, that we are still having problems with healing due to the extreme divisions that tore this nation apart in their youth? Divisions between black and white, male and female, straight and gay, divisions between those who support authority and those who criticize it, division between those who supported the troops and those who did not. What role has the Wall in Washington DC played in healing of divisions for veterans? But most importantly, do you feel the boomer generation will go to its grave, like the Civil War generation, not truly healing? Are we wrong in thinking this, or has 35 years made the following statement true: Time heals all wounds? I will let you know what Senator Muskie said after I get your response. ES (01:28:59): Well, it is true that time heals. The Vietnam Wall alone could not heal the divisions that arose over the war. One thing that I did notice is that whereas the veterans of the Vietnam War, even though most were conscripts, were reviled, you do not see that now with the veterans of the Iraq War. They are volunteers. So I think that is in a way an improvement. Whether those divisions have yet, yes, time heals. It is better now than it was. SM (01:29:51): I think that the students had saw the assassinations of that year, (19)60, and of Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King. Certainly the city's going up in fire in the (19)60s. SM (01:30:03): The cities going up in fire in the (19)60s, the burnings in Watts, and of course the protest movement. They had also seen the Hard Hats in New York City going, wanting to clobber the anti-war people. They had seen all of this stuff when they came to this. The Senator Muskie responded this way. He did not even respond in 1968. He basically said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." I said, " We still have the issues of race like we did back then." The students sat there, and not shocked, but just listened to them because he gave a melodramatic pause for about a minute. It looked like he had tears in his eyes, that we saw when people said he was a weak candidate because people had attacked his wife when he was a candidate. Then he went into a description about 430,000 men being killed in the Civil War. He had just seen the Ken Burns series, almost an entire generation. That is when he went at talking about the lack of healing since the Civil War. I put two and two together, because if you go to Gettysburg, if you have been there, they have this statue of the last living person who was in the Civil War. He died in 1924. I took students there. So a combination of all these things came to that question. The healing is a big issue, because there were so many divisions. But you agree that you think time does heal? ES (01:31:48): I think so. I was thinking what you said about Muskie said, the division since the Civil War. There was a time when, during Summer of Love, during that time, it was right after and during the civil rights demonstrations. There was a time when there were much better relations between Black and white. Then that changed with the rise of the militant groups, such as Black Panthers, which, in an attempt to give Black people pride, turned against whites. But I thought that was not a good time, and I think that persists today, to a large extent. It seemed- SM (01:32:50): Yes. ES (01:32:51): ...there was more integration then, than now. Now you always read about, in colleges, Blacks always being separate from whites. SM (01:33:08): Right. ES (01:33:08): In the (19)60s, did not have that so much. There was a brief period where you did not have that. SM (01:33:17): In your opinion, why did the Vietnam War end? ES (01:33:22): Oh, I think a lot of it has to do with the student demonstrations, the general consensus that it was wrong that we were there. The numbers of people who were killed, well, Vietnamese and American. SM (01:33:47): How do you respond to the people, like the Newt Gingrich's of the world, or George Will, who oftentimes will write in his books, commentary on the (19)60s generation, or that period in American history, as placing the blame for the breakdown of American society based on that time. They are making reference to the drug culture, the freedom of sexuality, the lack of respect for authority, maybe even the beginning of the isms. Just the breakdown of the way it was maybe in the (19)50s. I do not know. But your thoughts? Because those critics are still out there, and they are still making comments. You can see it on the Huckabee's television show all the time. We are going to make a reference to the (19)60s generation, and a lot of the issues that we face in our society today. Problems go back at that time. The divorce rate is another one, the high divorce rate, not having a commitment to a relationship, all these things. Just your thoughts on the critics of that time and era. ES (01:35:05): Well, some of the criticisms are valid, but I think that, overall, good came out of that period of time. We see that in the interest in maintaining, preserving, and improving the environment, in openness to new ideas, and arts and music. Overall, I think was good. Bad things also occurred. The people who were harmed by drug abuse. The change in a reaction to marriage, where it used to be felt that one married, it was forever. My parents married for almost 60 years before my mother died. When I first came out to Berkeley, when I had some roommates and friends at a residence where I was, I surprised by the number of people who came from divorced families. Of course, that has changed more and more. Divorce, that is not a good thing. I still think that when married, you should go into it thinking you are always going to be married. Not with the idea that many people have that, "Oh, you could always get divorced if things do not work out," but that is not a good thing. I think, overall, a lot of good came out of it. And I think these critics are, yes, reactionary. They are looking backwards. They are thinking, perhaps, of a time that did not really exist except in their imagination. SM (01:37:17): One of the other qualities, the second question, besides healing, is the issue of trust. There were lots of reasons why boomers did not trust their leaders, because they saw President Johnson lie about the Gulf of Tonkin. We saw Richard Nixon in Watergate. There were even rumblings that President Kennedy was not above board, with respect to the overthrow of the Diem regime. ES (01:37:42): Right. SM (01:37:42): Vietnam. And certainly even if you really were up on things, Eisenhower had even lied to the American public about you too. McNamara, and all these numbers, where they were giving numbers of the dead, and it could have been a whole pasture cows, and they were including them as well. Trust, or lacking trust, is a quality that many people link to this generation. Your thoughts on how important trust is, and secondly, whether there is truth to that. Secondly, one of my professors once said to us in a Psych 101 class that people who cannot trust others will really not be a success in life, because you have got to be able to trust other people. Just your thoughts. ES (01:38:34): Yes. On the other hand, it is healthy, in a way, to know about these things, these incidents, in which our leaders have lied. Because I think it is good to have a healthy skepticism, especially about politicians. The old joke about how you know when a lawyer is lying, his lips are moving. Most politicians are lawyers, so you have got a double chance of lies. I see a lot of disappointment now, after Obama's election, because he ran on the slogan, Change You Can Believe In. A lot of people are bitterly disappointed to find out that he is, after all, a politician, Chicago politician, who has to act within the constraints of our system. As I said before, people have a need to follow, a need for religion, a need feel that they are following someone who can guide them. And of course, one of the popular songs, it was Beatles or John Lennon, I forget, Do not follow leaders. SM (01:40:27): Yeah. I was a political science major as an undergrad in history, political science. And one of the things they teach you in political science is, it is healthy for democracy to not trust. ES (01:40:43): Yep. SM (01:40:43): Because that is the sign that dissent is alive and well. And if you have dissent, that means you have free speech, you have protests, the right, all these things. That is a healthy thing, not a negative thing. ES (01:40:56): Yeah. That is why that slogan Question Authority was so powerful. SM (01:41:03): Right. When I have asked another question, too, to all the guests, and I have tried defining the boomer generation into words from slogans. There were three, and then there was four, and then there was five. But the three that I mentioned to each person, and then they respond with their own, is Malcolm X's term, By Any Means Necessary, symbolizing the more radical violent aspects of the (19)60s, and early (19)70s, when boomers were young. Then you had Bobby Kennedy's quote, which he took from a writer, which is, "Some men see things as they are, and ask, 'Why?' I see things that never were, and ask, 'Why not?'," which is an activist mentality, a questioning of authority, fight for justice when you see injustice, that kind of thing. Then the more hippie mentality, which was on many of the Peter Max posters of the era, particularly in the early (19)70s. And one of them said, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, it will be beautiful," which was a hippie mentality. Then one other person mentioned, We Shall Overcome, which is symbolic of the Civil Rights movement. Others had mentioned Timothy Leary's Tune in, Turn on, Drop out. But are there some slogans that you feel, or do they cover the generation? ES (01:42:35): I think they cover it. I do not like Malcolm X's slogan, By Any Means Necessary, because it connotes violence when necessary, and I think violence should be avoided if possible. It is not always possible, but if possible, it should be avoided. I told you I did not care for... Well, I appreciated the power of Timothy Leary's. I did not appreciate the message, because if you are actually following it, dropping out of school, and just dropping out of society. SM (01:43:21): When you say that, when you look at the Summer of Love, that is really all about counterculture, that is really not about politics, correct? ES (01:43:29): I would say so, yes. SM (01:43:31): Yeah. ES (01:43:31): In fact, it was a big difference. There was some conflict between the political people and the Flower Power people. The difference even was seen in publications, such as the Berkeley Barb, where my newspaper columns first appeared. Very much interested in politics, whereas there was a publication called The Oracle, which had to do with psychedelic art and music. Yes, there was a difference there. SM (01:44:22): You are your books, which I have the list of your four books here, could you at least just, in a couple sentences, describe what each book is about? Dear Doctor Hippocrates, which was Grove Press in (19)69. ES (01:44:35): Yes. It was from newspaper columns, or questions and answers, almost all about drugs and sexuality. SM (01:44:46): Is that book still available, or you got a- ES (01:44:49): It is on online, again, through Amazon. SM (01:44:52): Yeah. ES (01:44:52): I thought they were being used company. SM (01:44:56): Natural Food and Unnatural Acts, Delacorte Press, 1974. ES (01:45:00): Yes. That was from newspaper columns and longer articles that I wrote. As I say, I always thought of that as a history of the (19)60s. SM (01:45:12): Yeah, that is what I need to get, for sure. The third one was, Jealousy, Taming the Green-Eyed Monster, 1980. ES (01:45:20): See, often people would write to me because they were exploring sexuality, freedom of sex, and they would say " I know I cannot own anyone, and I should not own anyone, but why is it that I feel jealous if I see my girlfriend or wife with someone else?" People would very frequently write to me about that, so I thought this be a good book to do, a book about jealousy. SM (01:45:48): Well, that is interesting. Mary Todd Lincoln should have read that book. She was suspicious of everybody that came anywhere near Abe. ES (01:45:58): Yeah. SM (01:45:58): The last one here, the Down to Earth Health Guide, in 1981. ES (01:46:02): Yes. I was asked by the publisher of Natural Food and Unnatural Acts to do a general health guide. At that time, there were not health guides for, actually, it started out for college students, and I expanded for others. It is a general health guide. There is a large section in there about drugs and sexuality, but it also includes other health conditions. SM (01:46:38): Now I am almost done here. The last part is just where I mentioned some names. So some people or terms, and you just give little brief comments. ES (01:46:46): All right. SM (01:46:47): If that is okay? ES (01:46:48): Sure. SM (01:46:48): Sometimes people decide they do not even want that, because the interview's gone a little over. It is a great interview. These are just names, terms, or personalities from the period. Just thoughts. Tom Hayden and Jane Fonda. ES (01:47:03): Yeah, Tom Hayden. Tom Hayden, he lived in Berkeley for a time. There was a time when women's groups were coming together, and saying, "We do not need men." They published an anonymous article in the Berkeley Barb about if it had to do with dildos, something like that, and we do not need men. [inaudible] condemned the article. It was anti-women, anti-feminist. I thought he was a true believer, and it was a marriage made in heaven or hell when he married Jane Fonda. I think she is really a dimwit. SM (01:48:07): How about John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy? ES (01:48:13): Well, John Kennedy, of course, represented a new kind of president. He was young, he was vital. He projected optimism. Robert Kennedy, I had some doubts about, because of his early work with anti-communist activity. When he was killed, a lot of the aspirations of people active in politics died as well. SM (01:48:59): How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? ES (01:49:02): LBJ was an example of how things can get done, how things have to be done, because he was very important in regard to civil rights legislation. And yet, he was an old style politician. Even Humphrey was an example of how things are not done, cannot be done. He had promised a liberal politician, but he was not as effective as LBJ, interestingly enough. SM (01:49:53): How about Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern? ES (01:49:59): Well, I met Eugene McCarthy one time. Again, he was someone who was not, of course he was in Congress, but he was not as effective. But he did inspire people to be active in politics, the way they had not before. The same with McGovern. McGovern was interesting. I was at Hunter Thompson's second funeral in Colorado, and McGovern was one of the people who spoke there. SM (01:50:42): Wow. ES (01:50:43): Yeah. SM (01:50:47): How about Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford? ES (01:50:51): When I was a student at Berkeley in 1953, Ronald Reagan, I was in the Cal Glee Club. We were asked to sing at a Lions Club meeting in Berkeley, and the featured speaker there was Ronald Reagan. It was the first time that I was aware of his interest in politics, and was surprised to learn of his interest in very conservative politics. I never understood why, do not understand now, why he is so revered by some Republicans. He was the guy who said, "You have seen one redwood, you have seen them all." He also was not the first actor to become elected to national office politics. Was that George Murphy? SM (01:51:54): Yes. ES (01:51:55): And before him. He unfortunately inspired other actors, get involved in politics, like our present governor. SM (01:52:08): Right. ES (01:52:10): You asked? SM (01:52:11): Gerald Ford. ES (01:52:12): Oh, Ford. Ford. SM (01:52:18): Ultimate question with him. When he had pardoned Nixon, did he really heal the nation? He wrote a book on it. ES (01:52:24): I think that was the intent, as well as maybe paying off some political favors. But I do not think it healed the nation. I think it destroyed his reputation. SM (01:52:42): When he ran against Jimmy Carter, I was in San Francisco. They had a big amphitheater there, and they had the big screen with a debate. I will never forget when he said, "They are not communists." I could not believe it. In Eastern Europe. ES (01:52:56): Oh yeah-yeah. SM (01:52:57): That killed him, that did it. ES (01:53:01): He was not very smart, either. SM (01:53:04): Dwight Eisenhower and Richard Nixon. ES (01:53:09): Oh. Well, Chris, Eisenhower was elected because he was general in the Second World War. I think his greatest contribution was to point out of the military industrial complex. SM (01:53:25): Yes. ES (01:53:26): Sadly neglected. Every now and then someone will remember it. But very important that he mentioned that, and emphasized that, and that he recognized how important that was. I think that is his greatest contribution, and the importance of that has yet to be realized. Nixon, it was astonishing, to me, when he was elected president. We thought, "Oh, my God, that is the worst thing that could have happened." Some of the most pleasant hours I have ever spent were during the Watergate hearings, then having him resign. Found that very satisfying that finally justice was served, because as he started out as a witch hunter, communist, anti-communist, and built on that. SM (01:54:35): How about Spiro Agnew and Jimmy Carter? ES (01:54:41): Yeah-yeah. Spiro Agnew. Well, it was amusing, I forget the term that he used. He was talking about the journalist. SM (01:54:55): Yeah, hobnobs. ES (01:54:59): Finally, he got his due because of corruption. SM (01:55:03): Right. ES (01:55:04): Jimmy Carter was a weak president. There was some promise. He was interested in, for example, in decriminalizing marijuana, at least through his White House drug advisor. I had some hand in Jimmy Carter's [inaudible], in a roundabout way. I do not know if you remember the White House drug scandal, when his White House drug advisor, Peter Bourne, that is resigned in disgrace? SM (01:55:52): Do not remember that. ES (01:55:53): He had written a prescription for Quaaludes, under a false name for his secretary, or something. SM (01:56:03): Oh, wow. ES (01:56:07): When that was revealed, and Jack Anderson revealed a story that he had been pledged not to reveal unless something like this happened. What that was, was that Peter Bourne was at a conference in Washington, it was a normal conference, national organization. He could reform of marijuana law. Peter Bourne was seen by some reporters in a room there, speeding, snorting cocaine with Thompson and some other. SM (01:56:48): Oh. ES (01:56:50): These reporters, they promised not to reveal this. They told Anderson about it. They promised not to reveal it unless something else happened. Something else happened when Peter Bourne wrote this fake prescription, and that was revealed. Then Jack Anderson revealed the cocaine snorting incident, and that did not help Jimmy Carter. SM (01:57:28): How about Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, the Yippies? ES (01:57:32): Yeah. Well, I knew both Jerry and Abbie. Abbie, I thought, always had a great sense of humor. But I was there when they were planning the Chicago demonstration. I was at the meeting, and they asked me to provide medical assistance at the Chicago convention meeting. SM (01:57:58): Oh, wow. ES (01:58:01): When they told me what they planned, I said, "You know, people could get killed if you do that." And Abbie said, "Well, what is a few lives lost there, compared with thousands of lives in Vietnam?" Well, I did not think that one could predict things like that, and I thought it was wrong, and I withdrew from being involved in the Chicago demonstration. But overall, I thought, and there was some brilliance in the Yippie tactics, throwing the money, the dollar bills, and the stock exchange, and some of their other stunts. Jerry Rubin, less so. Especially later, became a stockbroker. SM (01:58:54): Right. ES (01:58:54): Interested in that. They were killed, hit by a car, and some of us made wry jokes about he was killed because he saw a reporter on the other side of Wilshire Boulevard, right across the street. SM (01:59:17): Yeah. Well, I have heard he was killed because he was jaywalking, and he was against the law all the time, so he got killed because he was doing something against the law. Chicago eight. The next one is Chicago eight, which is the trial, the eight people. That was a big thing, with Bobby Seale, and Tom Hayden, and certainly Rennie Davis, Rubin, Hoffman, Dave Dellinger, Lee Weiner, and I am missing one person, but just your thoughts on that? That was a... ES (01:59:53): Yeah, that was a travesty. But again, as I just mentioned, I was supposed to have been involved in providing medical- ES (02:00:03): ...supposed to have been involved in providing medical coverage for a Chicago demonstration. So, I did not have too much sympathy with those people because they were deliberately trying to start a riot. They did. There is no doubt in my mind. I know that that is what they intended to do because they told me. SM (02:00:24): How about the women leaders, the Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug the women's movement, because they were at the forefront? ES (02:00:32): Yeah. I am afraid that all set setback progress for a couple of generations. They misled women on their relationships with men. It led to a lot of saying, what was it, slogan, women need men like fish need bicycles. I think that still influences a lot of women. I mean, the good part, of course was in pointing out discrepancies in wages and political power. That part was good. It was good and bad. SM (02:01:23): How about the Black Panthers? There was seven of them because there is Stokely Carmichael, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Dave Hilliard and then the one that was killed in Chicago. I forget his name. Norman, I think, Fred Norman. ES (02:01:44): Well, not all of them were thugs and gangsters, but I think most of them were. SM (02:01:49): Yeah. That gets to this question about, Stokely challenged Martin Luther King in person, saying his time had passed. Malcolm X had actually debated Bayard Rustin, telling him that his time had passed, which was nonviolent protest. ES (02:02:06): Yeah. That set back relations between blacks and whites and that exists till today. SM (02:02:13): Yeah. Well, what are your thoughts on Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr.? ES (02:02:22): Well, of course Martin Luther King Jr. was a great orator and peacemaker. Was of course, if not the greatest black leader, one of the greatest. I do not know as much. You asked about Stokely Carmichael? SM (02:02:45): Yeah. Stokely was the one challenged Dr. King. ES (02:02:51): Yeah. SM (02:02:52): He was down south in the early years, the Freedom Summer. So, he was doing good things. It is like what happens with the Weathermen and the SDS. I just saw Bobby Seale speak at the Kent State Conference. He kept saying, "We were never for violence." He kept saying that over and over and over again. Police just looked at the Black Panthers as a threat. They threatened him so much that they decided they had to get guns to protect themselves. ES (02:03:26): You know the Black Panthers, when they made a show of appearing at the state capitol in Sacramento, with rifles. SM (02:03:38): Right. ES (02:03:42): Yes, of course it was outrageous that there was discrimination against blacks, including blatant segregation, as I mentioned when I was younger. But the result of encouraging violence and hatred is what we have today. We do not have as much integration now as we did for a period of time during that Civil Rights era. SM (02:04:21): Couple other names here and then we are done, Dr. Benjamin Spock and the Berrigan Brothers. ES (02:04:31): Well, Dr. Spock influenced a whole generation. I was fortunate enough to meet him one time. I guess we were speakers on the same stage once in Berkeley. He was very warm, intelligent. He had a lot of good ideas. I think some of his child-raising ideas were misinterpreted, but I thought he was great influence on a whole generation of people and a good influence. Who is the other? SM (02:05:11): Phillip and Daniel Berrigan. They were part of the Catonsville 9 where they burned the draft records. ES (02:05:19): Yeah. Yeah. Well, they were very influential because they were church leaders who encouraged activism. To the extent that they influenced people of their own faith and other faiths, especially about the Vietnam War, they are very important. They show that it is worth sacrifice to do some things, the sacrifice of being liable to being arrested and jailed. They were not violent. SM (02:06:08): Yeah. The SDS, Students for Democratic Society and the Weathermen. ES (02:06:14): Yeah. Yeah. Well, again, there are people who are most influenced by big thing, explosion, boom-boom. The Weathermen, of course they blew themselves up sometimes, but I thought that that was wrong. Thought it was wrong to encourage violence at that time, at that time and for those reasons. I thought there were other means that were useful to ending the war. I mean, after all, that is why they started their group. Using violence to end violence, it's like using racism to end racism. SM (02:07:13): How about Muhammad Ali and Jackie Robinson, two of the predominant African American athletes who- ES (02:07:20): Well, Muhammad Ali was a very bright man. He was very funny. His decision not to be drafted I think was very important and influenced a lot of people. At the time he did that, he changed his name from Cassius Clay to Muhammad Ali, I mean that was important. I never can remember his though, advocating killing infidels or some of the things that you see now from Islamic extremists. I think he was very influential and a good role model at the time, I mean, even before he avoided the draft way he did because he was such a wonderful athlete. So, very smart, clever and funny. Who was the other? SM (02:08:38): The other was Jackie Robinson. ES (02:08:42): Yeah. Again, of course he was a pioneer in baseball. He always seemed to comport himself in an ethical manner. Was not like some of the athletes we see today, of all races, drugs and gangsters, acting badly. He always seemed to act in a good way. He was very important. Actually, I was interested in baseball because of the various baseball background in my own family. SM (02:09:23): I want to mention a book that I think you ought to go out and read. I am reading it right now. It is a brand-new book on Henry Aaron. ES (02:09:29): Yes. SM (02:09:30): It is called Henry Aaron. It is written by a person on ESPN. I have got several books. In the first 50 pages, the influence that Jackie Robinson had on Henry Aaron, the young guy from Mobile, Alabama is just unbelievable. Jackie talked about getting an education, not relying on your athletic ability. Raise as much as you, can be educated. Yet Hank was the extreme opposite in his attitudes. It is the best book I have ever written on Henry Aaron. I think as a person who is a psychologist or psychiatrist who works with people, I am learning a lot about human beings from this book. I am respecting Hank Aaron even more now that I am reading about his life. Because he has been kind of a recluse, even though he was high up in the Braves organization, but he was not out there making a name for himself. He did not believe in that. He liked being just, put the product out there. Just a couple more names and then we are done. The Vietnam Veterans Against the War and Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers. ES (02:10:48): Well, I saw the Vietnam Veterans Against the War activists. It was in Miami Beach in 1972. They had the Republican Convention there at that time. As you know, I had grown up in Miami Beach. They were amongst the demonstrators there. I was astounded. I saw something I thought I would never, ever see in my life, tear gas, tear gas floating across the visage of a full moon in Miami Beach. I thought I would never see tear gas in Miami Beach. It was during that time. SM (02:11:34): Right. ES (02:11:35): I think Ron Kovic, that he was there. SM (02:11:41): So was Bobby Muller, I think. ES (02:11:43): Yeah. SM (02:11:44): Yep. ES (02:11:44): Yeah. They were very important also in helping to end the Vietnam War and publicizing the atrocities that occurred. SM (02:11:55): Mm-hmm. Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers? ES (02:12:02): That was also important. He demonstrated how a brave person could help to change things by exposing lies. I think he was important at that time. He surfaces every now and then, now, for other issues, but that was his greatest moment. The associate, what was his name? It started with an R, Russo, I think had some mental problems. SM (02:12:49): I cannot end this without at least having a couple conservatives here, Barry Goldwater and William Buckley. Your thoughts on those two? Because they are major figures in the lives of Boomers. ES (02:13:03): Yeah. It is funny that Goldberg used to be reviled as this terrible conservative. What did he say? That extremism, forget how he put it, in defense of liberty, is no vice, something like that. He is a very important figure. I think he is regarded in a better light now than he was then, even by liberals. SM (02:13:32): William Buckley? ES (02:13:34): Buckley, I met him one time. I was recording something in a studio in New York City, taking too much time. He was impatiently waiting. I did meet him then. He was a very interesting person. He was one of the first national figures, particularly conservatives who advocated the liberalization of laws regarding marijuana. That was very important for the people in the marijuana decriminalization movement. I thought he was a brilliant man. Even though often I would disagree with his political views, at least there were reasons and he was very articulate and clever. SM (02:14:38): How about My Lai and Tet, how important they were? ES (02:14:44): That was very important, very important in finally putting an end to the war. It did confirm the fact that there were atrocities going on. It is still significant today. I think it has certainly had an effect, even in the wars that are being conducted now, that there is more caution being used in the treatment of civilians. I know that there were incidents in Iraq involving civilians, but I am convinced that that more caution is being used now in Afghanistan and Iraq because of My Lai. SM (02:15:36): Mm-hmm. ES (02:15:37): Yeah. SM (02:15:43): Tet? ES (02:15:46): Again, it was something else that helped eventually put an end to the Vietnam War. It showed that we were not just up against a group of ill- equipped, low-trained savages. It was very important. SM (02:16:06): My last two names are Robert McNamara and John Dean. ES (02:16:14): Well, McNamara, finally he admitted he was wrong, I think, but many years too late, 30, 40. He was certainly an architect of that terrible experience in Vietnam. John Dean? Yeah. Well, I think he benefited from end of Nixon because he helped, contributed it to it. But he, I do not know, seemed bigger. SM (02:16:51): He lives out in your neck of the woods someplace. ES (02:17:03): I guess so. I have not heard his name recently. Every now and then he will turn up in the news. SM (02:17:09): The year 1968, what do you think that year meant to America? ES (02:17:17): 1968. Yeah. We were still in the Vietnam War, a lot of turmoil. SM (02:17:32): Two assassinations. ES (02:17:35): Pardon? SM (02:17:37): Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were killed. That was the year of Tet. That was the year Johnson withdrew to be president, the Chicago convention. Then of course, we had the astronauts going to the moon at the end of the year. That was a positive. ES (02:17:54): Mm-hmm. A lot of turmoil, a lot going on, a lot of talk about revolution, but I never believed that that was going to happen. SM (02:18:12): The last one here is the television of the (19)50s, the black and white TV. What's your thought of black and white television of the (19)50s? When I think of it, I think of Walt Disney and Howdy Doody and Hopalong Cassidy and all these westerns, where Indians are always the bad guy. Very few people of color, except for Nat King Cole in the mid-(19)50s and Amos 'n' Andy, which was slapstick in the early (19)50s. ES (02:18:42): Yep. Milton Berle. SM (02:18:43): Yeah. Well, (19)40s and (19)50s a television, how did they shape the Boomers? ES (02:18:55): Well, it did because it captures... even then, just black and white television captures one's attention. So, whatever was on was influencing those people, kids at the time. They were pre-conventional values. It was not a lot of innovation or questioning about values, moral or political or artistic or musical during that time. It was a time of convention. SM (02:19:43): Symbolize again, do you think the time of symbolic innocence, but at the same time, there was still racism in the south and Martin Luther King and the Montgomery Bus... There were things going on that a lot of white kids did not know about. ES (02:20:01): Yep, that is right. SM (02:20:03): I am not sure if their parents were doing much to tell them about it either. ES (02:20:07): No, it depends on who they were. I mean, of course my parents were different because they had a liberal point of view. So, I knew about all those things. SM (02:20:21): Yeah, I did too. Final question and that is, when the lasting legacy of the Boomer generation is written up in the history books after the last Boomer has passed away, ala the Civil War person, what do you think historians and sociologists and writers will be saying about the generation that grew up after World War II? Keeping in mind also that they are only 63 now, so they have still got another 20 years to still have an impact on society in different directions. But your thoughts on what they might be saying about that period, in particular the (19)50s, (19)60s and (19)70s? ES (02:21:07): It was a time of great change in the United States in many areas. Any area that you can think of, it was a time of turmoil and change, progress, some regression. SM (02:21:26): Is there any questions that... I have asked you a million questions, that I did not ask, that you thought I was going to ask you? ES (02:21:34): No, not that I can think of. You have asked a lot of questions. SM (02:21:37): Well, I guess that is it. I want to thank you for... My tally, you spent two hours and 20 minutes with me. I really appreciate it. I want to let you know that I am going to need a couple pictures of you. You can mail them to me or send it to me through the computer or whatever, sometime during the summer. I will mail you my mailing address. T. Here is a possibility that I am coming out to San Francisco to visit friends in late August, early September. I have interviewed probably 15 to 18 people from the Bay Area. They all are aware that if I do come out, I may look them up to take their picture too. ES (02:22:20): Sure. SM (02:22:22): I have Chrissy Keefer, David Lance Goines from the Free Speech Movement over in Berkeley. Well, there is several others. I got a whole list here of people. So again, thank you very much. ES (02:22:38): Oh, you are welcome. I had a question. What are your plans for this book? SM (02:22:44): I am doing all my interviews. My interviews were supposed to end at the end of May, but now I am extending it through Labor Day. After Labor Day weekend, I am then transcribing them all together over a two-month period, to transcribe them all. Then you will get a copy of your transcript, to peruse through it, edit it and so forth. Then, it will be printed hopefully next year. I got one university press very interested. University presses are interested. I have not done anything with respect to major presses, but I am meeting with two professors at my parents' former college, in actually the next couple weeks, to strategize on the best book company to get for this. ES (02:23:34): Okay. SM (02:23:34): You are the 156th interview. ES (02:23:39): Wow. SM (02:23:39): Each interview has gone in depth. The early interviews, with Senator McCarthy and Gaylord Nelson, they were like 90 minutes. Sometimes they were interrupted. They were mainly talking about Vietnam. Originally, the book was going to be about Vietnam Veterans, those activists who were against the war and historians who have written about this period. But now I have interviewed so many, and since I retired early to write the book, I am spending all my time now on this and it is expanded into seven different sections. The sections include a section on activists, a section for historians, a section for Vietnam Veterans, a section for authors. I got a lot of different categories here, a section for entertainers. I am going to interview Buffy St. Marie, but she has been having some deaths in the family and she goes on world tours. So, I have been almost waiting 10 months for that. Actually, tomorrow I am driving down to Virginia, Alexandria to interviewed State Senator Toddy Puller, who was the wife of Louis Puller Jr., who wrote the Pulitzer Prize-winning book, Fortunate Son. He was the inspiration for the book because I took a group of students down to the Vietnam Memorial in 1993, in November, two days before the Women's Memorial was dedicated. He spent two and a half hours with six of our students at a bench in front of the Vietnam Memorial, talking about healing. Then, he committed suicide in May the following year. ES (02:25:27): Wow. SM (02:25:30): I had mentioned to Lewis that I wanted to write this book. I had thought about this. He wrote in a first edition copy of the book, "You must do what you are planning on doing to educate the public." See, what I want to do, Dr. Schoenfeld, more than any other process here, is I want this book to be used in high schools and colleges and plus be available for the general public. I am very saddened that so few of our students know our history. It really upsets me. I interviewed Mark Rudd from SDS. I saw him at Kent State last week. We talked in depth about it. I interviewed him. He has got a book out called Underground, which I think is great. He admits the violence was a big, big mistake. He admits it, but you notice that Bernadine Dohrn does not. ES (02:26:27): Nope. SM (02:26:29): I had issues with her. She was at the conference, so I just basically took a picture of her. But at least Mark has the guts to say that what he did was wrong and it ruined the entire SDS. ES (02:26:41): Yep. SM (02:26:43): I just want to do something that will educate people, from the people who experienced it, that have written about it. So, it is a work in progress, but I am devoting my life to it. ES (02:26:56): Yeah. Sounds like. SM (02:26:58): Because I care deeply about my generation and I care about the true stories of the people that I am interviewing. Certainly, Paul Krassner, what a great man he is. ES (02:27:08): Yep. Yep. SM (02:27:09): Rex Weiner, I do not know if you know Rex. ES (02:27:12): No. SM (02:27:13): Well, Rex Weiner was a writer. Rex said, "You got to get ahold of Paul Krassner." So through Rex, I got ahold of Paul Krassner. And then through Paul, Paul gave me a whole lot of names. I think only two people of all the names that he gave me have not responded. One of them is Carolyn, what is her... Oh, golly. ES (02:27:38): Garcia? SM (02:27:39): Yes, Carolyn Garcia. She has not responded. So obviously a couple of people said they are surprised by that, but maybe there is something to do with the fact that she was linked up with two people at one time. Maybe it is private. So, I did not pursue that any further. Then the other one was the Whole Earth Catalog person. ES (02:28:01): Yeah, Stewart Brand. SM (02:28:02): Yeah. He said he is going to pass at this time. He said, good project and everything, but he is going to pass. Everybody else, I have been interviewing. I have got many other interviews. I am going up to take care of my sister's house. I have three interviews, with really three great scholars coming up next week. Maurice Isserman, who wrote a book on the (19)60s, he is a distinguished professor at Hamilton College. I got another professor at Ithaca College and one at Syracuse. So, I am making a lot of different contacts. ES (02:28:41): Oh, good. There are some photos of me on my website. SM (02:28:46): Okay. What is your website? ES (02:28:52): EugeneSchoenfeld.com. SM (02:28:52): Okay. ES (02:28:52): Okay? There is a lot of biographical information there. SM (02:28:58): Great. ES (02:28:59): Information about what I am doing now. SM (02:29:02): Yeah. I think some of the people, when I did the interviews way back... I started this in (19)96, but I was a full-time employee at a university and I did not have any time to really work very hard on this. Then, I had parents who became ill. So, that kind of shot down two or three years. But now devoting full time to this, I am kind of a walking encyclopedia. I am learning. I have learned a lot from you today. I want to apologize for not getting the right number sent to you, so it is my fault. ES (02:29:41): It is all right. All right. Well, give me a call when you are out here, if you want to. SM (02:29:44): Oh, yeah, will do. You take care and you have a great day. ES (02:29:47): All right. All right. You too. Bye-bye. SM (02:29:48): Bye. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schoenfeld, Eugene, 1935- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Psychiatrists; Authors, American--20th century; Schoenfeld, Eugene, 1935--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Eugene Schoenfeld is a psychiatrist, author, lecturer and was a popular underground newspaper columnist. His column "Dr. Hip" was published in many newspapers including the <em>Chicago Sun-Times</em>, <em>Tampa Times</em>, <em>San Francisco Chronicle</em>, and the <em>San Francisco Examiner</em>. Schoenfeld's books include <em>Dear Dr. HipPocrates</em>, <em>Natural Food&nbsp;and Unnatural Acts</em>, <em>Jealousy: Taming the Green-Eyed Monster</em>, and <em>Dr. Hip's Down-To-Earth Health Guide</em>. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.154a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.154b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Has Part A related resource that is included either physically or logically in the described resource. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 149:55 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/82df6d5503cc009d7696869cc9d7e3a0.jpg 69f9eb241e79cea4e35206e98850934a https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f8e82e93b379a361067a85cf0948ee5.mp3 6516a06e77e4277a50ad924973491dbd Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-05-26 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Maurice Isserman Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Maurice Isserman, born in Hartford, Connecticut, is a professor at Hamilton College and an accomplished author. He got his Bachelor of Arts in History from Reed College and his Master of Arts in American History and his Ph.D. from the University of Rochester. Dr. Isserman specializes in modern U.S. History, American radical movements, and global exploration and mountaineering.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:13311,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;9&quot;:0,&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Dr. Maurice Isserman, born in Hartford, Connecticut, is a professor at Hamilton College and an accomplished author. He received his Bachelor's in History from Reed College and his Master's degree in American History and his Ph.D. from the University of Rochester. Dr. Isserman specializes in modern U.S. History, American radical movements, and global exploration and mountaineering.<br /></span> Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Beat writers; Activism; Volunteerism; Kent State; Jackson State; Woodstock; Counterculture; Hippies; Yippies; Weathermen; Beat generation; Sexuality; Women's Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5041,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Vietnam War; Baby boom generation; Beat writers; Activism; Volunteerism; Kent State; Jackson State; Woodstock; Counterculture; Sputnik; Beatnik;&nbsp;Hippies; Yippies; Weathermen; Weather Underground; Beat generation; Sexuality; Women's Rights Movement; Students for a Democratic Society; Participatory democracy; Nat King Cole; Bob Dylan; Aretha Franklin.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 145:25 Subject LCSH College teachers; Hamilton College (Clinton, N.Y.); Radicalism--United States; Isserman, Maurice--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Maurice Isserman Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 26 May 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:06): Testing one, two, testing. I will be checking this. (00:00:13): Could you tell us a little bit about your background? I have read about it in the web and everything, and what fascinates me is several things that I would like you to comment on. You had an Uncle Abraham who took you to the 1967 protest at the Pentagon, that was when they levitated. MI (00:00:34): Right. SM (00:00:34): I would like you to mention that experience and how important he was. And secondly, your college experiences when you were out in Portland. You were joining the Students for Democratic Society and becoming involved with the Portland experience. MI (00:00:50): Right. Well, I was born in 1951, so I am smack dab in the middle of the Baby Boom. And grew up in a small town in Connecticut, which was really not on the cultural or political cutting edge of the era. But I came from a family that was marked by, not one, but two dissenting traditions. One was on my father's side, well, he was Jewish. But in the case of my uncle and to an extent my father as well, influenced by participating in the Communist Party in the 1930s and thereafter. My father was not a communist, but he certainly was sympathetic. And on my mother's side, a Quaker background, she was the daughter of, and the sister of Quaker ministers. People are sometimes surprised to hear the Quakers have ministers, and in the East they tended not to, but in the Midwest, they do. So both of those traditions, I think were influences even before the 1960s, sort of picked me up and threw me in front of the on-rushing train of history. So in the summer of 1967, I was on an American Friends Service Committee work project in Indianapolis, which is where my uncle was a Quaker minister at the time. Bonnie Raitt was on that work project. She was not yet Bonnie Raitt, she was just a high school kid who played guitar. We sang a lot of folks songs that summer. That was high school kids doing good works kind of project, but it was also in that context, it was a lot more because it was the summer of Sergeant Pepper and we were these long- haired kids coming into conservative Indianapolis and getting involved in anti-war protests there, such as it was. I remember we had Vigil Hiroshima Day and reading and talking and thinking about stuff. On the project, that is why I read Michael Harrington's "The Other America" for the first time, and the "Autobiography of Malcolm X." So that was one influence. Then going into that fall, I had been in my first anti-war protest the previous spring in New York City, the spring mobilization, which knocked my socks off to be coming from a little town in Connecticut, to be suddenly marching with 300,000 people down to the United Nations from the Central Park and hearing Martin Luther King speak. SM (00:03:51): Wow. MI (00:03:51): I am getting my chronology all jumbled here. SM (00:03:54): But still those are- MI (00:03:55): So there was the spring mobilization, then there was the Summer of Love, which I happened to spend in Indianapolis with the AFSC. Then in the fall I went down to the Pentagon with Uncle Abe. My parents were not entirely on board with this going off to anti-war protests. But somehow because my uncle was taking me, it was... When I say my parents, in that case, my mother and stepfather. So with Abe escorting me, we marched from Washington to the side of the Pentagon. And of course what happened at the Pentagon was not part of the program, which was that there was somehow a line where the MPs were not strong or were not there at all. Somebody tore down a cyclone fence and suddenly 5,000 of us tore up the hillside, were right next to the Pentagon building. Abe, I did not come all the way up to the Pentagon with him, I kind of waved goodbye to him. I was there for several hours. And finally the MPs were picking off small groups of protestors. Actually I think it was federal marshals in this case. The MPs were just standing in a line. I was gassed and thrown down the embankment, then I walked back across the Arlington Bridge to Washington and to the hotel where my uncle was staying. I wrote an article about it, which you may have seen for the Chronicle, and said that all in all, it had been the best day of my life. SM (00:05:33): Was that your awakening, you were awakened by other things, but the true awakening, was that it? MI (00:05:40): Well, I am not sure. That seems a little melodramatic, but I was certainly awakening for several years there in the mid-(19)60s. Already by 1965, (19)66, I was flipping The Times religiously of articles about Vietnam. I remember Harrison Salisbury reports from Hanoi, which established for American readers for the first time, the fact that it was very heavy bombing of civilian neighborhoods going on in Hanoi and other North Vietnamese cities. I would cut out these articles and put them up on my bedroom wall. So even before I was in the streets, I was increasingly aware of what was going on in Vietnam. Before that, the Civil Rights movement, which I had no direct participation in, but was sympathetic to. I mean, I remember watching in 1963, the March on Washington was broadcast live, and I watched King give his speech. We would get Life Magazine every week and there were these pictures of Sheriff Price and the other officers in Philadelphia, Mississippi who had kidnapped Schwerner, Cheney, Goodman. They were sitting at their trial, big fat stereotypical southern sheriffs, laughing and chewing tobacco. I knew which side I was on that one. Then it being the (19)60s, listening to the Beatles and all that was going into the mix. So by 1967, awakening, yes, I was certainly awakened, although I do not think any single event is key. I was also working at my teenage identity and establishing independence issues, going into New York or going down to Washington on my own was a way of showing my parents that I could take care of myself. In 1968, I graduated from high school in June, I am not sure the exact dates, but June 14th, let us say. That night got on a train to go down to Washington for Solidarity Day. King had been assassinated in the spring. The SCLC was calling for people to come down in solidarity with the Poor People's Movement, Resurrection City, the shanties built around the reflecting pool on the mall. So I told my parents I wanted to go down, support this, and they thought, okay, big public March in favor of poor people. What was so bad about that? So I took the train down overnight and took part in the demonstration and then wound up hanging out with the Resurrection City people for the next week, which had not been part of my parents' plan at all. I had some friends in Washington, so I stayed with them. So every day there were marches, I remember Jesse Jackson leading a march to the Department of Agriculture so I was going along. Of course, I was sort of an imposter. I was not a poor person, but in solidarity. Then the announcement was made the next day, a week after I had arrived that the feds were going to close down Resurrection City, that they had had enough of this festering mess in the middle of the Capitol. SM (00:09:28): Because it was raining too, was not it? MI (00:09:29): It was raining, it was muddy and so forth. So I called up my parents and I said, "I am going to go get arrested tomorrow." And they said, "No, you are not, you are coming home." I said, "No, this is what I got to do." First time I ever hung up on my parents. So I went down to spend the last night at Resurrection City. I went to the main gate and they said, "Well, have you been staying here are you a registered poor person protestor?" And I said, " No, just a supporter." They said, "Well, you cannot come in." So I had my knapsack and I walked down the fence and I propped myself under a tree preparing to spend the night there. It was Washington in June at this point. Somebody looked over the fence and said, "Hey kid, what are you doing?" I said, "Well, I wanted to get in, but they would not let me in." They said, "Oh, here." So they took me through a gap in the fence or something, and they took me to their little shanty. It turned out this was a Blackstone Ranger, which was a notorious Chicago Street gang, which I probably read about it in one of the books for the AFSC, except they were enlisted in the cause of the Poor People's March. So I spent the last night of Resurrection City in a shanty with a bunch of Blackstone Rangers, which is not the kind of company that most suburban kids from Connecticut actually might spend any time with. SM (00:10:57): Oh, no. MI (00:10:58): They were very pleasant. The next morning we all had breakfast and marched off to the Capitol and demonstrated on the Capitol grounds and were arrested, because it was illegal to demonstrate on the Capitol grounds, and was sentenced to seven days in jail, sent off to a minimum-security prison in Virginia. It was great. It was like an all-day-long political seminar, sitting out on the grass talking with Civil Rights veterans, singing freedom songs with this whole stock of freedom songs. Was talking about nonviolence versus violence and all kinds of issues [inaudible] the movement at the time, eating better than we did when I went off to college the next September, food in prison was much better. So I thought it was this great experience. When I came back and my parents lionized me because I made this heroic sacrifice on behalf of the poor, which they had forbidden me to do, but they knew I survived it. SM (00:11:59): How long were you in jail? MI (00:12:00): Seven days. But it was like this great adventure. What was I? Summer of 1968, I was 17 years old, turned 17 in March. Then I went off to college in the fall of (19)68. So of all times to go off to college. I had gone to England that summer for a month, which was my reward for graduating school, with a friend and his family, and hooked up with the British Left. So I met Tariq Ali, who- SM (00:12:35): Oh yeah, he has written several. I got a couple of his books. MI (00:12:39): Led the demonstrations against the American Embassy of Grosvenor Square, which took place in the previous spring when I was not there. Traveled around London, went to several demonstrations I guess about the war. But then while I was there, the Soviet Union invaded, or the Warsaw Pact invaded Czechoslovakia. The British New Left, as well as a lot of Czech students who were studying in London, were of course outraged. And so there were three nights of demonstrations in the London streets marching on the Soviet Embassy and the Czech students waving the Czech flags. So when I hear charges that the New Left was pro-Soviet, [inaudible] demonstrations, which was clearly anti-imperialist, whether imperialism was our own or the Soviet version. I also was impressed by the London bobbies, and this was a pretty anarchistic crew that was turning out. This was the summer of (19)68. It was after the May (19)68 riots. So people were pretty in the streets and they were not throwing things, but they were truly not obeying the traffic laws. The London bobbies would remove people, but do it quite gently without guns and billy clubs, so it was a model of good crowd control. SM (00:14:18): Did you happen to see at the Pentagon in (19)67, the guy that burned himself to death? Were you aware that there was a man there that did it and he did it with McNamara looking out the window? MI (00:14:29): Yeah, but that was earlier. That was Norman. What was his name? SM (00:14:34): Was that another protest? MI (00:14:35): Yeah, he did that as an individual protest and that was a 1965. SM (00:14:40): Okay. Yeah. MI (00:14:41): Norman Morrison. I was certainly aware that that had happened, but it was on a different occasion. SM (00:14:49): Right. You have written some unbelievable books, of course, the one in the (19)60s, but what did you learn from all of your research on the war between the New Left of the (19)60s and the (19)70s? MI (00:15:10): Okay. Well, in "America Divided," and when I lecture to students about the era, I make a number of points. One is that although it seemed like all the thunder was on the left in the 1960s, we remember the decade in terms of a series of iconic images connected to Civil Rights protests, anti-war protests, counterculture. The decade also has to be seen as the seed time of a conservative revival that would dominate American politics for the remainder of the 20th and be certainly the beginning of the 21st century, starting with the Goldwater campaign in 1964 and the George Wallace insurgency within the Democratic Party, the rise of a right-wing populist reaction to particularly the Civil Rights, but also to counterculture and the anti-war protests. It was not something that was apparent to me at the time, but looking back, it was obvious that as significant, if not more significant than the left-wing story of the (19)60s is the right-wing story of the 1960s. Ever since, the (19)60s have been a touchpoint, as you suggest, for conservatives who are nostalgic for what they imagine to be the stability and order and morality of the patriotism of pre-1960 America, which I think is a construct. It is a Golden Age, and it is a myth, but it is a powerful argument. I mean, in fact, the 1950s were certainly not a Golden Age if you were Black in America. If you had not had the insurgencies in the 1960s, you would still be having Jim Crow society. So you cannot simply look back and say, "Oh, it was all terrible." But the problem with that right-wing argument is that the forces for the dissolution of the family, or for new family structures to emerge were already coming into place in the 1950s. Moreover, they were not restricted to the United States. If you look at single parent families and so on and so forth, any kind of social parameter you want to use, this is something that is across the industrial democratic West, and even to Eastern Europe as well, which did not have a (19)60s. But these are changes that are somehow connected to, and we do not yet have, not far enough away from it to have a satisfactory historical explanation, but something with modernity, something with what has been happening in industrial and post-industrial society, certainly the decline in the birth rate. The Baby Boom itself is an aberration. That temporary expansion of marriage rates, lowering of the age of marriage, increase in the number of children per family, and so on and so forth, which we now take as the norm is an aberration from well over a century of just the opposite, that women were getting married at older ages, having fewer children and so forth, stretching back into the 19th century. Then for particular historical reasons in certain places, United States, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, you see this Baby Boom phenomenon. Again, it is illusory to see that as somehow being the norm. So powerful cultural forces were coming along and were going to change the family. One of the most important reasons why the family has changed is because of the decline in real wages for industrial workers. When you had a secure, stable, industrial base in this country where a male breadwinner could support a family, then you could have women stay at home and be primary childcare providers and cook a hot meal every night that the whole family sat down to eat. Once that is removed starting in the late 1960s and for the last four decades, you see a decline in real wages means women go out to work. If women go out to work, it means that first of all, they have more financial independence so they can contemplate getting a divorce if they are in an unsatisfactory marriage. It also means you are not going to have the Betty Crocker kind of housewives that you had in the 1950s. Families are going to not eat together. They are going to eat more fast food. I mean, the obesity epidemic is probably a byproduct of this. So it is a really complex mix that has something to do with the cultural insurgencies and the counterculture, the 1960s. But only something. I was just reading a piece in the New York Times the other day that pointed out that teenage birth rates, a single parent, unmarried teenage women having babies are much higher in the red states than they are in the blue states. That has something to do with the availability of abortion. There might be more pregnancies in the blue states, but they are not being carried to term. But it has also something to do with the availability of contraception. All you have to do is look at Sarah Palin's daughter, who's now going around as an advocate of teen abstinence. SM (00:21:34): She did not do it. MI (00:21:35): Well, not really a role model for that. So it is not simply decadent places like Berkeley and Cambridge and New York City where cultural patterns have changed. It is precisely in places where you still have, at least this kind of strong norm for church, family, patriarchal authority, where in fact, the family structure breakdown is most evident, at least as measured by teen pregnancies. So it is a bogus argument. SM (00:22:13): It is interesting too; the Boomers for years have said that we are the largest generation in American history. We are not anymore. There are more Millennials now than there ever were Boomers. There is a brand-new book on, I was perusing through it, and it states that it is very difficult to state the exact number of Boomers, anywhere from 74 to 78, but they do know that there are close to 80 to 81 million Millennials now. So to say that Boomers are the large generation of American history isn't true. MI (00:22:51): Well, that might have something to do with immigration. SM (00:22:53): Yes, you are probably right there too. Obviously, I have interviewed a lot of people and a lot of them give their reasons, but I put down six here, but I would like your thoughts on these. What event in your eyes was the number one reason with respect to why the Vietnam War ended? And here is the six that I am listing. Tet. Number two, Kent State and Jackson State in 1970. Tet was in (19)68. Number three, when middle America, like Ohio, their sons were coming home in body banks. Number four, funding was cut off by Congress. Number five, student protests on college campuses, major effect. And number six, the wrong military strategy. MI (00:23:40): Number one, in a broader sense, which is to say that the war was never winnable. I mean, you could annihilate all Vietnamese, you could drop atomic bombs, but you could never build a stable South Vietnamese government there. The material simply was not there to do it. If you did not win politically, did not matter what you did militarily. The Vietnamese were not going anywhere, it was their country. They knew, just like the Americans knew in 1776, that eventually the British would get tired and go home, which was also the Confederate strategy in 1861, except in that case, the North was closer to the South. They were neighbors. But we were not neighbors to Vietnam, so we were never going to win. You could stretch it out, you could increase the number of amount of bloodshed, but at some point, there was going to become a breaking point. Tet was the symbolic breaking point, because thereafter, American people as a whole decided that it simply was not worth fighting in Vietnam. The only way you could fight in Vietnam, as Richard Nixon discovered, was by saying, we were fighting to get out as to say of this Vietnamization program, in fighting for peace with honor, we want to get back our POWs, which was a sort of self-reinforcing rationale for the war, because the longer you fought, the more POWs there were to get back. But in the end, that too was going to run out as a rationale for the war. American people after 1968 simply did not believe the game was worth the candle. Nixon and Kissinger understood that too. This is not a secret. They have this new revisionist history about how we were really winning after 1969. Well, that would have been news to Nixon and Kissinger, who on a number of occasions in the secret White House tapes said, "We cannot win this. We know we cannot win this. We are stretching it out. We want to pass it on. We want the collapse to come after we are out of office. We want a decent interval between the final withdrawal of American troops and the collapse of the Saigon regime." In 1972, they almost lost it. American troops had been wound down. It was only by a massive air expansion of the Air War, bringing the B52s from Guam, that a South Vietnamese route was halted in the summer of 1972 offensive. Two years later signed the Paris Peace Accords, or actually January (19)73, signing the Paris Peace Accords. At that point, even that air offensive was no longer politically possible. So in 1975, when the North Vietnamese again on the offensive, the entire house of cards collapses. When Nixon and Kissinger agreed that both sides would keep their forces in place, they signed South Vietnam's death warrant. Again, you could prolong it if Congress said, "Yeah, here, take another $500 billion, rush aid to South Vietnam." Maybe the final collapse would have come in 1977 instead of 1975, but there was no way it was going to be [inaudible]. So again, that is a long way of saying that, yes, Tet was the most important turning point because at that point, realization dawned on the American people that this was not World War II all over again. There was not a satisfactory narrative that it was going to end in American victory. And it was only a question of how and when we get out, and how many more American lives would be squandered. In the case of Nixon, it could have spared 20,000 American lives and a million Vietnamese lives. The peculiar thing is that if Nixon had simply come into office in 1969 and said, "I would like to win in Vietnam, we all would. But my predecessors have so screwed up everything that we are just going to go to the peace table when we are going to get out," he would have been a hero. He would have been politically invulnerable in the same way that he was when he went to China. No Democrat could open the door to China, but Richard Nixon could have- SM (00:28:10): You are right. MI (00:28:10): ...could have used to get that Communist credentials. And had he done that, there would have been no Watergate, because Watergate was a direct outgrowth of his desire to keep fighting the war, expanding the war in terms of the Air War secretly, while pretending to the American people that the war was winding down. The plumbers were created to fix the leaks in the State Department. That was where the first illegal wiretaps were on the state department's personnel to see who was leaking information about the secret bombing of Cambodia. So Nixon would have gone down in history as the great unifier, the great peacemaker, no Watergate scandal, but instead, he decided he was going to prolong the war for whatever reason. SM (00:28:58): What was amazing about him as a person who was... I am only three years older than you are, and what is amazing is that I was in college at the time, what I considered the arrogance of Richard Nixon, that even though he may have been trying to Vietnamization process and have the peace talks and all the other things, he boldly said that no protestor is ever going to influence me. MI (00:29:26): Right. SM (00:29:27): No one protesting. And he was referring to college students, but I think he, he is referring to more than that, I think anybody. And that was just pure arrogance, was not it? MI (00:29:35): Right. But it also was not true because they were very aware of protests. And when he overlooked that with the invasion of Cambodia in May of 1970, that was the last time he used American ground forces to expand the war. He had suddenly understood the limits of his mandate because that strike in May 1970, I mean, again, the Vietnamese won the war in Vietnam, and it had nothing to do with protests at home. If there had been no protest... That had nothing to do with protests at home. If there had been no protests at home, the war still would have been lost for the U.S. However, it did set some constraints on policy. That strike in 1970 is significant because it was not simply places like Harvard and Wisconsin and Michigan and Berkeley that went on strike. It was places like Kent State, which is a commuter school, a working-class school, in the middle of Ohio in the heartland. It was places like Notre Dame, Catholic colleges, Southern colleges, community colleges, even some of the service academies. The Merchant Marine Academy had a protest. It was the entire younger generation in college that was rejecting war, and a lot of other people in addition, and Nixon never risked that again. Even though basically after the spring of 1970, the anti-war movement continued, it was never as powerful again. The protests between 1967 and May of 1970 created a specter of what could happen if you escalated before. SM (00:31:22): I am hearing something. You had been very critical of the current Students for a Democratic Society. I know several students at my former school that are in the current SDS, that they glorify the extreme radicals of that particular period, the Bernardine Dohrns, the Mark Rudds, the Bobby Seales. I find that interesting because there is truth to that, because I just got back from Kent State after being there four days. The main speakers were Bobby Seale, Bernardine Dohrn. Mark Rudd, though, I will say about Mark Rudd... MI (00:31:59): Mark is very self-critical. I brought to Mark speak here. SM (00:32:00): Yeah. I like Mark. He admits he was wrong and he admits that they destroyed a good thing, which was SDS. Sometimes Bobby is confusing, because Bobby says real good things. I do not see the anger in him anymore, but I do see the... what is the word here? He defends that they were not violent in any way. Bernardine Dohrn, to me, has never said anything to apologize for what has been done. MI (00:32:30): No. She has forgotten nothing and learned nothing. SM (00:32:32): Yeah. Well, your thoughts on why. Kent State was very important, because you had Alan Canfora there and Chic Canfora, and they were students that experienced it, and some of the more radical students at Kent State. They were there when all this happened. Just your observations on why that group is being idealized more than any others by some of the younger anti-war activists today. MI (00:33:02): Well, that is a big question. I think people are drawn to iconic figures. Angela Davis, say, or Bobby Seale, would have a great appeal. They are appealing public personalities in a way that say David Harris is not, or he has not chosen to play that role. One of the things I talked about in my (19)60s seminar is the leaders who chose not to be leaders in the 1960s. One of them is a Hamilton alum. Bob Moses is a critical person in the history of the (19)60s, the Freedom Summer. SM (00:33:55): He is the math guy too, isn't he? MI (00:33:59): Yes, and spoke at the first SDS anti-war march, and the people of 1965 knew. Really a central figure, who pulled out of the movement and went into self-imposed exile for a while. It was a draft business, but I do not think he felt comfortable in the way that the movement was developing. He was not a Stokely Carmichael. John Lewis, another person. Nobody was as important in the history of the civil rights movement as John Lewis, from the Freedom Rights to the march on Washington in (19)63 to the marches in Selma and in Montgomery, leading the march across the bridge. Lewis pulled out. I mean, he was displaced as SNCC chairman by Stokely Carmichael, but he did not try to out-militant Stokely Carmichael. That would have been difficult. The Berkeley Free Speech Movement... SM (00:35:00): Mario Savio. MI (00:35:00): ...Mario Savio, he continued to be politically engaged, but he pulled out of leadership. He had some problems. I just read a biography. SM (00:35:10): Oh, I have read it too. It is a great biography. MI (00:35:12): It is a very good bio. SM (00:35:13): Robert Cohen, I believe. MI (00:35:14): Robert Cohen. There were all kinds of interesting, thoughtful people who simply did not fit in with and could not bring themselves to do the celebrity militant politics of the late (19)60s. What we are left with in terms of public memory are the people who did not have a problem with that, people who were not self-doubting in any sense and have these big extroverted personalities and egos to match, and who are happy to offer themselves up to the later generations as the model (19)60s radical. One of my problems with the idea of creating a new SDS was who in SDS were they looking to as leaders. Not the ones, in my mind, who exemplified the best of the movement, but actually those who killed the movement, who killed SDS, as Mark Rudd says. The second problem with the idea of a new SDS is that the essence of SDS, the reason SDS took off, was because it looked back at previous left-wing movements, and some of these kids were coming out of red-diaper-baby backgrounds. Some of them were coming out of pink-diaper-baby backgrounds, Socialist Party backgrounds. They said, "What came before does not suit us anymore. We have to do something new." SDS grew out of the Student League for Industrial Democracy. Well, what did the League for Industrial Democracy mean to young people at the start of the 1960s? It meant nothing. Industrial democracy meant nothing. They brilliantly renamed themselves as Students for a Democratic Society, which did mean something, and they [inaudible] their own statement, which owed nothing, owed little, to previous left-wing manifestos or ideas. They brilliantly recreated a Left that was relevant to their era and their generation, unlike SDS, which is a brand name. Yes, who would not want to belong to SDS? I would like to belong to the Industrial Workers of the World, but they had their moment in the past. I thought there was an irony involved in paying homage to SDS by doing something very un-SDS-like. SM (00:37:42): With Mark, did you talk about that in the class? MI (00:37:49): We did talk about that, yeah. SM (00:37:50): I interviewed Mark on the phone, then I had dinner with him at the conference. We spent some time together and then the rest of the time, as soon as Bernardine and that group came in, I kind of distanced myself. He has an intellectual, and he likes intellectual conversations. When I interviewed him, he said, "I do not want these fluffy questions. I want something where I can deeply think about it." He is the real deal. He is the real deal, and with respect, he has done some deep thinking about the mistakes that were made. He really admits he is wrong and it destroyed something that he loved deeply, which was SDS. MI (00:38:27): Kathy Wilkerson's book is good. SM (00:38:29): I have it. I have not read it. MI (00:38:31): It is good. I mean, there is problems with it. There is a disconnect at a certain point between her actions. It is hard to see from the book how she changed so dramatically. She came out of Quaker background as well, as did actually quite a number of people in the Weathermen. Jeff Jones, coming out Southern California, I think he had a Quaker-ish background or a pacifist background. SM (00:39:05): Well, I know that Thomas Powers wrote the book on Diana Oughton. I have the book, because she is one of the three that died. She was actually the girlfriend of Harris, who ended up marrying Bernardine Dohrn. Not Harris. He wrote a book too. MI (00:39:24): Bill Ayers. SM (00:39:27): Bill Ayers, yeah, President Obama's friend. I did not realize how close they were. MI (00:39:32): Oh, yeah. SM (00:39:32): Boyfriend and girlfriend. Okay, we are pretty close to the first half here. How did the New Left of the (19)60s differ from the old left of the (19)30s and the (19)40s? I know personally from what I have read, but what were the defining characteristics in a generation of 74 million? What was the New Left? How did they differ? I say this because I mentioned Mark and how he talked about how he read Che Guevara and these were important ideas. It was all about ideas. When he talked about Mario Savio at the Free Speech Movement, he said, "We are about ideas. We are not about just being here for the corporations. The bottom line, the university's about ideas." The Old Left was more about just pure politics, was not it? MI (00:40:33): Well, it was about ideas too, when they were reading their Marx and Lenin. There are a number of crucial differences. One is that the Old Left looked to the industrial proletariat as the agent of social change, so workers organizing around their economic interests would inevitably, through a scientific process that could not be stopped, come to realize their interests were in opposition to that of the employers and eventually they would make a revolution, whether peaceful or violent. People dispute it, but inevitably they would turn to Socialism and seize control of the means of production. That was their idea of who the agent of change was. In the 1960s, the agent of change was young people themselves. Instead of youth organizations like Students for a Democratic Society, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, being the affiliates of adult organizations, which had always been the pattern ...the Socialist Party had the Young People's Socialist League, the Communist Party had the Young Communist League, the League for Industrial Democracy had the Student League for Industrial Democracy. Instead of seeing themselves as the affiliate supporting this adult project, rather, they said ...C. Wright Mills famously wrote in a letter to the New Left, "Look around the world. Who is in motion? Who is demanding change? It is young people," young intellectuals, young workers and so forth, so there was a generational cast to their politics. "We are people of this generation, uncomfortably inhabiting a world we did not make," something like that. It is the opening lines of the Port Huron Statement. That was one thing. The other thing was organizational. The Old Left was hierarchical. In the case of the Communist Party, it was hierarchical and authoritarian. In the case of the Socialist Party it was more democratic, but still there were national chairs and presidential candidates and so on and so forth. The New Left developed a much more ultra-democratic, unto anarchistic ... not in the violent sense but in the sense of being distrustful of all authority, even authority within their own organizations ...which created a very different movement, a very localized movement. A movement, again, without a formal hierarchy, which had a lot of strengths at times, and also made for an impermanent movement and also opened up the movement for infiltration by people like the Progressive Labor Party, who had their own agenda. Ironically, being ultra-democratic meant that the authoritarians could sneak in the back door. That too, in the sense of who was the agent of social change and what was the correct proper organizational strategy, the New Left was fundamentally different than what had come before. SM (00:43:57): I know I see it in the current SDS at my university before I retired, is it takes forever to make a decision. MI (00:44:04): All process. Process. SM (00:44:05): Oh, it is all process, process. Everybody's got to be included. Well, they never make any decisions. That is frustrating. MI (00:44:12): Well, that is where it can lead. It is not an adult form of organization. There is a famous story about SDS had projects called the ERAP, Economic-something-something Action Project. One of the projects... I think it was in Cleveland... spent 24 hours debating whether it should take a day off from work to go to the beach. For young people, who have endless amounts of time and patience for that kind of thing, it is a good form of organization. For grownups, that drives you crazy. SM (00:44:50): Yeah. Actually, I was driving a few students crazy to join. They did not know. I think they were remembering the history or studying the history. MI (00:44:59): Well, there is a third element, and that is I think the pacifist movement was actually very influential in a number of ways. Not that by the end of the 1960s the New left was pacifist. Increasingly it was turning not to violence but at least to the rhetoric of violence, violent imagery and Black Panthers. The notion of a prefigurative politics, that is to say that your movement should embody the values that you hope to create in a new society, came out the pacifist movement. It came out of groups like the Catholic Worker, but others as well. I think was very influential and shaped, particularly in the mid (19)60s, SDS. You see that. SM (00:45:46): Hold that line. Hold that line. Very good. MI (00:45:56): We were talking about the impacts of the pacifist movement. You see that kind of prefigurative politics, that your movement itself should embody a more harmonious, a more humane, a more communal atmosphere. That is why these kind of campus takeovers, building takeovers, were so important, because at a place like Columbia, for the five days before the police stormed in, the occupied buildings themselves became a kind of model of what a university could be or what a decent society could be. Of course there was a lot of silliness and utopianism and so on and so forth, but it was an interesting moment. If only the world could be like that. SM (00:46:49): You talked about there is two different qualities and I am going to address them now, the issue of healing and the issue of trust or lack thereof. You mentioned that in the New Left, that they did not trust anybody. When you look at the generation as a whole, there is a perception out there that the generation, whether they were involved or not, just did not trust anybody in positions of leadership or responsibility, whether it be a university president as a college student, anybody in leadership roles, whether it be a church or synagogue. Because I know my fellow students at SUNY Binghamton did not trust anybody in the religious community, the corporate community, the university community or the political community. They did not trust anybody in leadership roles. MI (00:47:32): Right. SM (00:47:32): Do you see that as a major characteristic of the boomer generation overall, and by having that characteristic, it is transferred into their lives over the last 60 years and maybe into their children and into their grandchildren, and is that good? MI (00:47:52): I do not know if it is good, but it is certainly a fact. It is a fact. I mean, they were taught that by Lyndon Johnson, and they were taught that by Richard Nixon. The publication of the Pentagon Papers and publication of the Watergate transcripts demonstrated the absolute chasm between the public rationale and justification for issues as important as war and peace and what the private position of the policymakers were. John McNaughton, Assistant Secretary of Defense, writes a memo to Robert McNamara and lists statistically... very significant because statistics were the end-all and be-all of the McNamara defense fund... he gives a statistical breakdown of the reasons we were fighting in Vietnam. "Why are we fighting in Vietnam? It is 80 percent to protect our reputation as a guarantor, that is for credibility, 10 percent because we do not want the Red Chinese to take over South Vietnam, and 10 percent because we want the people of South Vietnam to have a free, democratic form of government," which inverted the public rationale, which is like fighting the Nazis, that we are fighting for democracy and free French, and so on and so forth. The lesson was taught, not just to the baby boomers but to their parents as well, that people in Washington would lie to you. At the start of the 1960s, public opinion polls, the Gallup poll or whatever, would ask every year, "Can you trust people in Washington to do the right thing?" 75, 85 percent of Americans, said, "Yeah, you can trust that." "How about corporations?" "Oh, yeah." At the end of the decade, you could not get 30 percent of people to believe that, because they had been through Vietnam, they had been through Watergate. There was a massive collapse in the legitimacy of institutions and leaders, which in one way was a healthy skepticism. You know, you should not trust what public authorities tell you if you do not verify. Trust but verify, as Ronald Reagan once said. On the other hand, I think it also bred a deep cynicism about politics. "Well, if they are all so corrupted they are all liars anyway, the hell of it. I just will not participate." The other thing you see is not only the number of people who trust people in Washington goes down, but voter participation drops down to 50 percent or below. I think by the mid 1970s, it is every election. Richard Nixon wins a landslide election in 1972, but about 10 percent fewer voters are participating than took part in the election 10 years earlier. That was one of the real legacies of the 1960s. That is bounced back a little. One of the interesting things about the Obama campaign is the involvement of young people and really the political participation of young people, which is always lower than that for older people [inaudible] sustained. SM (00:51:09): No one believes anybody in Washington today. What is interesting is that the boomer generation, whether they were protestors or not protestors, had I think an attitude that we are going to bring peace to the world. We are going to be different than any other generation, that we are going to end racism, sexism, homophobia. We are going to ... I forget the name of the book. Panacea, this book that we had to read in grad school. Basically, this generation was going to change things. It does not seem to have changed anything. In fact, it seems to have gotten worse. The question is, has the boomer generation as a generation been a failure in terms of their idealism, their hopes and dreams? MI (00:52:00): Well, I think it has changed tremendous amounts culturally, if not always politically. I tell my students, "Whatever your politics are, Republican or Democrat or liberal or conservative, you would not like the 1950s. You would feel really out of place in the 1950s at the level of the assumption that this was a white society. Blacks are simply invisible. Go back and read Life Magazine. Try and find blacks in the advertisements or in the news stories. The expectations about women's roles." If you go back and read the Smith or Wellesley yearbooks for the late 1950s, they would list all the people who had their, "Mrs. degree," or the number of people who were pinned or who already married, as they were going out into the world at the age of 22. The notion that women would have a career was simply not thought of, so the kind of double standard in sex and sexuality. In many ways, we are a freer, better, more egalitarian, more humane society as a result of the changes that began in the 1960s, that Rand Paul gets shellacked because he says, "I am not sure I would have voted for the Civil Rights Act." Americans might be anti-government and they might be free marketeers and all that, but the idea that a restaurant owner could discriminate on the basis of race is simply no longer possible to sustain. If you cross that line, you get slapped down, as he did. I would have to say that the (19)60s changed an enormous amount in that, in that disillusionment that followed Vietnam and Watergate, there was a disillusionment with government, and that worked against liberals and that worked against the Left. That worked against the Democrats because the Democrats are the party of government, so people did not simply conclude that government was bad because it lied us into Vietnam and could not win in Vietnam. It generalized, that the government is bad no matter what it tries to do. Regulation is bad. Workplace safety regulation is bad. Glenn Beck says fascism grew out of the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906, so progressivism is the beginning of fascism. I mean, you could not possibly have sold that idea at the start of the 1960s. When people thought about big government, they thought about the New Deal and Social Security and workers' rights to organize and so on and so forth. Once that idea of government as benevolent and competent was tarnished in the 1960s, it allowed the Reagan Revolution to establish a new common wisdom, which was the government's not the solution to problems, government is the problem. SM (00:55:26): Yeah. Then one thing when you talk about the Free Speech Movement in (19)64, (19)65 in Berkeley, when you talk about the students demanding to be part of the governance of the university and getting a better understanding of the money coming in and the money going out, the donations and everything, this link to the corporate world was talked about at Berkeley in (19)64, (19)65. You even see Clark Kerr, in a major speech he gives about the corporate, the multiversity and everything. Students at that time were coming in saying, "I do not want to be that IBM person." MI (00:56:03): The knowledge factory. SM (00:56:04): Yeah, the knowledge factory. You had that happening in the 1960s, and yet today... and that is the beginning of the Research Institute too. I interviewed Arthur Chickering, who wrote Education and Identity, the great scholar who was the Seven Vectors of Development. Integrity was the seventh one. I interviewed him. My degrees are in higher ed, and I basically said, "Is there anything about the universities today that you criticize?" He said, "Yes, that the universities are again under the control of the corporations." That scares him. Correct me if I am wrong, because someone I interviewed said that when you have universities and corporations in control, you have fascism. MI (00:56:54): That seems like an exaggeration. SM (00:56:58): That the ideas are being controlled from outside rather than inside. MI (00:57:03): Well, universities have sort of returned to a credentialing industry for career advancement. I mean, even in the (19)60s, many more people were business majors than [inaudible] history majors. One of the things on which the 1960s protests depended was this sense, that was not universal at the time, that economic prosperity was a permanent fact in American life, that things were going to get better and better. If you talked about poverty, you talked about poverty thinking it is terrible that these people are not sharing the general affluence. "We are a really affluent society. Why cannot everybody have access to it?" If you are a kid in college, you can think, "Well, I do not have to rush towards the degree." First of all, college is very cheap. I got out of college without any debt whatsoever. We were not from a wealthy family by any means, but what was my tuition, $2,000 a year or something? You could take time off, you could drop out, you could experiment, you could go into public service, you could be a schoolteacher or whatever. You did not have to go think of yourself as being a hedge fund manager so you can pay back your college debts. The underpinnings of that economic prosperity collapsed in the late (19)60s and the start of the 1970s with the energy crisis, stagflation, declining real wages and deindustrialization, none of which were thought of as possibilities at the start of the 1960s, but which became the economic reality through the 1970s and thereafter. Much greater instability, a much greater sense of, "You really need to buckle down, because it is a rat race out there." The number of history majors goes down and down and down, and the number of people going to take classes that they think will get them jobs with a hedge fund just goes up and up and up. I forget what the starting point for this question was. Oh, so the state of the university today. Well, I teach at what is a little outpost of the declining ideal of the liberal arts. Very few students. There are millions of college students, but probably 5 percent of them go to colleges like Hamilton, which is not vocational. I mean, you cannot take a business administration... I mean, you cannot take a business administration. You can take economics, which is what a lot of them do. You know where the ideal is, you are going to be schooled to be a better person, a better citizen, a better thinker. Where most of your teachers are tenured or tenured track. You are not being taught by adjuncts. It is a four-year residential program. I mean, that just does not describe the 95 percent of the college and university student population today. Hamilton used to be the norm. It is no longer that. It is a relic and we know that. And even at Hamilton, I am probably part of the last generation to enjoy the benefits of being a tenured faculty member at a place like Hamilton, where life isn't so bad. At least, I remind myself it is better than working in a coal mine. SM (01:00:59): I went to Harper College, Arts and Sciences there. I identified more with Harper College, within the school of Binghamton University, than anything. This is the other very important question I wanted to ask. Let me preface this by saying that, in 1995, I took a group of students to Washington DC to meet the late Senator Edmund Muskie, who was part of our Leadership On the Road programs. He had not been well, and we were still able to secure him through Gaylord Nelson, at the Wilderness Society. Took 14 students down there and they came up with the questions. And one of the questions was, they had looked at 1968, they knew he was the vice-presidential Democrat, running mate with Hubert Humphrey. The nation at that time looked like it was coming apart. The nation was torn apart with assassinations that year with the terrible confrontations in the streets of Chicago. The president withdrawing from the race. And then of course, looking at the (19)60s and all the other things going on. But the question is, "Is this generation going to its grave, the boomer generation, comparable to the Civil War generation, that went to its grave not healing, due to all the unbelievable divisions between black and white, male and female, gay and straight, those who supported the war, those who are against the war, supported the troops or against the troops?" It comes down to a lot of things. I even add on here, through the interviews that I have had with people, the divisions also included, certainly between Native Americans and white people and Latinos and the hard hats against the college protestors. The list goes on and on. I will tell you what Senator Muskie said in response to that question, "What is your question? Do you worry that this generation of 74 to 78 million, maybe they do not have a problem, but that they are going to go to their graves without healing from all these divisions because the division still exist?" MI (01:03:13): Well, interesting. I guess healing is not a word I would use, as if growing up is a therapeutic process. I would say that the significant portion of that generation was indelibly marked by the 1960s. My politics, whatever year we are in, 2010 are not my politics in 1968 or 1970. But you can certainly see the influence on the way I understand the world, on the way I understand personal responsibility and the morality. All those things are affected by the 1960s. In the aftermath of the Civil War, people voted as a shot. So for the next 40 years, American politics were dominated by that Civil War generation, north and south, and the political allegiances and conclusions that they drew on the basis of the experience of living through that kind of war. We lived through a war too. Now, oftentimes I will ask my students, "What did your parents do in the 1960s?" Actually depressingly, increasingly, their parents were not alive or were just very young during the 1960s. But when I could ask that question with reasonable assurance that their parents were my contemporaries, sometimes they would call home and say, "What did you do in the (19)60s?" And their parents would say, "Well, I missed the (19)60s. [inaudible] nursing school or I had a young child at home. Or I got married at 21. Or I was living in Dubuque and we did not have the (19)60s until the (19)70s." So one wants to avoid generalizing too much about that experience. Some people simply sailed through it. Most people are not involved in public affairs. It is not important to them. It might, every four years, sort of attract their attention, but most people are focused on home and family and relationships and work and so on and so forth. But for those of us who were involved one way or the other, on one side or another, went to Vietnam or protested against Vietnam, sometimes those are the same people. I think we will carry those influences for the rest of our life to our grave. I do not think that is a bad thing. I do not feel like I need to heal from the 1960s. I think we, as a country, need to understand the lessons of the (19)60s, the meaning of the (19)60s, and not simply reduce it to a set of iconic images and a few stereotypes, whether favorable or unfavorable. SM (01:06:08): I think originally when I had talked to the students, I think they were a little influenced by me. Because I think what they were really talking about is what you just mentioned, those who protested against the war and those who served in that war. And thinking that when those who protested the war bring their kids or their grandkids to the wall in Washington DC, are they having second thoughts about, "Maybe I should have served. Maybe I should have been involved. Maybe I should not have gotten a deferment." The questioning, because sometimes kids and grandkids ask questions that really make the parents think even deeper about something. MI (01:06:53): Well, I never think that when I go see the wall and I go pretty often. I think, what a terrible tragedy that 58,000 lives were thrown away, not to mention 3 million Vietnamese lives, for nothing. And one of the great stereotypes about the 1960s is that anti-war protestors hated soldiers, hated veterans. It simply was not true. When I got involved, when I went to college in (19)68, I started meeting large numbers of Vietnam Veterans who were protesting the war. Vietnam Veterans against the war had just come into existence. And those guys were our heroes. We assumed, maybe [inaudible], that most people going through that kind of war, being of the same generation, would come back opposing the war. And in fact, there were war protests in Vietnam. People wore black armbands, people wore peace signs. People increasingly refused combat duty. I mean, one of the reasons the war came to an end is because it was destroying the American Army, collapsing morale, drug abuse, [inaudible], AWOL's and so on and so forth. The longer you stayed in Vietnam, the less of an Army you were going to have, in any sense, combat ready. So I do not see... Obviously, there were veterans who came back who hated hippies. I do not doubt that there were a few of them who were spat upon. Although, I think that is also one of the great myths, lots of people were being spat on in airports. I certainly remember anybody who spat on a veteran or somebody in uniform. If you think about it is inherently unlikely, given that hippies tend to be sort of not fighters. And these guys are just coming back from Vietnam. You do not hear about the people being sent to the hospital with broken jaws. Which is what you would expect me hear if somebody spat on you, coming to the airport back from Vietnam. So I do not see that as one of the great divisions in that sense. SM (01:09:04): What has the wall done? Obviously, the wall was built to heal the Vietnam Veterans and their families and to pay respect for those who paid the ultimate price. And when Jan Scruggs wrote his book, To Heal a Nation, his goal was to heal those families who had lost the 58,000 plus and all Vietnam Vets, to recognize that when they came home, they were not welcomed. They had another war, but that their service was something to be honored. But in the book, itself also, he talks about the fact that, "He hopes it spreads beyond the veterans to really the nation itself." Do you think it is done a good job there? MI (01:09:47): Well, again, I am not crazy about the word, "Heal." After the Civil War, every southern town put a memorial to Confederate dead in the town square. And every northern community put a little model of a statue of a Civil War soldier in the town square. It was a memorial. It is a recognizing the sacrifice of the soldiers who fought on one side or the other. Memorial Day itself began as an annual occasion of putting flowers on the graves of Civil War Veterans specifically, and then it became like Iran sort of general occasions to honor veterans of all American wars. So I think that the Vietnam Memorial has to be understood as that, as a memorial, not as a therapeutic device. But in the design, interestingly, there is an ambiguity that is present in those simply heroic statues of generals or private soldiers, which is, that there is a kind of sadness to it and a contemplative. You can see your reflection in the shining stone, and plus seeing all of the names, of course, it is obviously a powerful device. Initially, it was opposed by some veterans groups who said, "It was a black gash of shame," and so forth. They wanted a more traditional statue, and eventually they put up- SM (01:11:25): The three-man statue. MI (01:11:26): ...three-man statue, which to my mind, it detracts from the effect of the original. But the wall has become the most popular tourist site in Washington. So clearly, people do see it as an appropriate memorial to the Vietnam War. SM (01:11:47): The Muskie response was that he did not even comment about 1968, which the students thought he would talk about. His comment said, "We have not healed since the Civil War." And dealing with the issue of race, he said, "When 430,000 Americans lose their lives and almost an entire generation is wiped up, particularly in the South, that is a tragedy." And you go to Gettysburg and you see oftentimes the flags on the Southern side. Is there some... Is that a train? MI (01:12:24): No, it is the fire siren. SM (01:12:27): Oh. MI (01:12:27): Tell you also when there is an accident. I hate it. SM (01:12:32): This is a question that is kind of different. Is there something about the (19)50s, the (19)60s, and (19)70s, the time when boomers were young, that is rarely discussed, but important in your eyes, with respect to the overall impact that had on 74 million? Something that is rarely discussed but important? MI (01:12:53): If it is rarely discussed, I probably have not thought about it or have not discussed it. Well, I do not know if it is rarely discussed, but you often see the baby boom generation counter pose to the Greatest Generation. And recently, we have been living in sort of this Greatest Generation boom let, Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, and [inaudible], The Pacific. I think what has to be understood about the (19)60s generation is of course, they are the children of the World War II generation. And World War II was enormously influential for thinking and worldview. When I grew up, when I was 10, every adult authority figure I had, from my father, to my sixth-grade teacher, to the President of the United States was a World War II Veteran. SM (01:14:10): Same here. MI (01:14:14): And the war was endlessly celebrated, Longest Day, Great Escape, television shows like Combat and Gallant Men. SM (01:14:24): Victory at Sea. MI (01:14:25): Victory at Sea, even earlier, Sergeant Rock. So you are kind of living in this. And children's play, Tom Engelhardt has written a good book called, Victory Culture about the way children's play- SM (01:14:37): That is with the cowboy on the cover. MI (01:14:39): What is that? SM (01:14:39): Is a cowboy on the cover? I think there is a cowboy on- MI (01:14:43): Oh yeah, I guess. SM (01:14:44): ...of course. Yeah. MI (01:14:44): I guess so, because he takes it back to the narrative victory culture goes back to the Western. But that was the world we inhabited, and there was a tremendous amount of idealism about the United States role in the world as a liberator, liberating force, winning the war as we thought. Because we did not think much about the Soviets. A good war and so on and so forth. I think that idealism carried over into the (19)60s generation just was put into different directions, which was to instead of simply endlessly celebrating American virtues and triumphs, it was to get America action to exemplify the values at its best, it had represented in the past. So lots of people went from being excited about John Kennedy, war hero PT 109, to being excited about the moral qualities of the Civil Rights protestors, people like Bob Moses. And to being disappointed about when America and Vietnam its actions and value, seems so at odds with those World War II values and actions. So World War II did not go away. World War II went away in the 1970s. It would reappear in disguised ways, like the Star Wars Imperial Storm Trooper in helmets, like Nazi helmets and so forth. So it disappeared because of the general war movies went away. People did not want to see movies about war, they had just been through Vietnam. And then at the end of the century, as the veterans were dying off, you quickly realized this generation was not going to be around anymore, then suddenly it returned to the vengeance. But I do not know what I am going to say. SM (01:16:50): You made a point there. Why did the children of the World War II generation in the 1950s, all they saw were Westerns, cowboys and Indians. Indians, and guys wearing black hats were the bad guy. And the good guy was always Hopalong Cassidy, the Lone Ranger, Matt Dillon, that whole group. What was the psyche there? Because we grew up as kids with cowboys and Indians, the movies, everything was Cowboys and Indians. MI (01:17:24): Well, that had pretty much been the case since the 1890s. I mean, the story of America was the story of Western expansion. And the conflict in Western expansion was the conflict between the cowboys and the Indians or the whites and the Indians. There was little doubt that who was the good guy in that conflict. So it was a powerful story. Hollywood was drawn to it, created its own icons like John Wayne, cowboys and Indians went away in the 1970s. SM (01:17:56): Yes, they did. MI (01:17:58): Or they changed where the Indians became the good guy, suddenly. That was a product of Vietnam as well. SM (01:18:07): Who do you think were the personalities of the Boomer Generation that both good and bad, that had the greatest influence on them, whether they be politicians, activists, writers, you name it, entertainers? Were there things that stood out that really, yes, this was the impact. This person in that group had the greatest impact on everyone, regardless of their politics. MI (01:18:40): Well, rock and roll. SM (01:18:42): Right. MI (01:18:42): I mean, I do not have anything surprising to say about that. But certainly, a lot more people took their politics from music than they did from sitting down and reading a report here on statement. And Dylan, even when he left behind his protest, Woody Guthrie persona for his other personas, he was changing personas every a couple years, but the sort of angry alienation of the mid 1960s music, the, "Do not follow leaders watch the parking meters," was still very expressive of a political worldview. So you cannot underestimate the influence of those pop-cultural figures. SM (01:19:39): I know that when I read the March book, Underground, he talked about the importance of Che Guevara. He read about him and thought about him a lot. But why did many of the new left read not only Che, but Mao, David and John Paul [inaudible], Camus? Bertrand Russell, who I loved to read. In fact, the opening of his biography, that first couple lines there, the purpose of his life. I do not know if you remember that line. MI (01:20:10): I bet a lot more people wore the T-shirt, than actually sat down than read Che. I bet a lot more people bought and carried around a little red book as a cultural icon, which I did, than actually sat down and read Mao. He was pretty boring. So I do not think, certainly by the late (19)60s, that those figures were so much important as intellectual influences, as they were just as images of heroic gorillas and so forth. SM (01:20:52): It is like the thought that a revolutionary can create a revolutionary society. And that socialism, we keep hearing that word today of being labeled against President Obama, which is ridiculous. But that they believed that revolution should happen in the United States. What were they meaning, "Revolution should happen in the United States?" Was it ideas? They were reading this before violence was part of the anti-war effort, before the Weatherman became part of SDS, or they took over SDS, the Black Panthers, the Young Lords in the Latino community, the violence even at the Wounded Knee, which was different than the takeover of Alcatraz in (19)69. So what were they saying here? This was even before violence. MI (01:21:46): Well, one of the most powerful texts to come out of the 1960s, published right in the middle of the decade, was the autobiography of Malcolm X. And sales, no doubt, helped by the fact that Malcolm X was assassinated before the book came out. And Malcolm X's story, Malcolm X famously said, "By any means necessary." But he was not himself a violent revolutionary. He simply said, "If that is what it takes to win freedom, then that is what we will do." But the story is really a story of personal transformation, of creating a new identity. He had been a pimp and a drug dealer and a drug addict and a convict who remade himself into this powerful spokesman for Black power, Black pride. And in doing so, it was a very American story. I like to compare it to the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, which is also a story of his recreation. He runs away from Boston and goes to Philadelphia [inaudible] two pennies in his pocket and becomes one of the most important businessmen and inventors and philanthropists, and then later, a revolutionary, a different revolution. I think that that was a very (19)60s message. That idea that you could remake yourself, become a new person, take on a new name. Malcolm Little becomes Malcolm X. So that text strikes me as much more authentically representative of what was driving the politics in the (19)60s, which were a lot about self-transformation, for better or worse. Then Che Guevara's Bolivian notebooks or [inaudible] Revolution, or certainly the Little Red Book, which again, I do not think anybody actually read. SM (01:23:52): So you saw that with Cassius Clay and Muhammad Ali. And then you saw that with Lew Alcindor and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. They were all somewhat linked to right Elijah Mohammad. They were never [inaudible]. MI (01:24:03): Right. SM (01:24:09): But anyway, I do not know if you ever had a chance to read Theodore Roszak's book, The Making of a Counterculture and Charles Reich's, the Greening of America. To me, (19)67 to (19)71, they were classic books that we were required to read in our graduate program at Ohio State. And they had a tremendous impact on me. When think of the counterculture and what was happening, would you consider those two of the greatest books to really describe the young people of the era? MI (01:24:45): No. I mean, I think they were attempts by well-meaning academics to account for this change. I think if you went back and read them now, they probably would not stand up. I mean, millions of people read them because they wondered, "What the [inaudible] is going on with these kids?" Again, I guess I would turn to novels for one. I turned to a book like, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Ken Kesey. Kesey is an interesting, significant figure. Or Doris Lessing's, Golden Notebooks, especially lots of women, but lots of men were reading Lessing. Again, books about social transformation, identifying with outsiders, people on the margins, On the Road. SM (01:25:45): Oh, yeah. MI (01:25:45): On the Road was published in 1957 and sells okay. It remains in print, but it is real moments in the 1960s. And what is On the Road? On the Road is an account of this journey of self-discovery, which is in part going to the West, a great American story, but it is also going to the margins. I think a lot of (19)60s politics, youthful (19)60s politics needs to be understood in terms of the identification with people who were on the outs. SM (01:26:21): The Beats. MI (01:26:22): Well, the Beats, but migrant farm workers. Sal Paradise goes off and picks beans and in Imperial Valley or picks cotton, jazz musicians and so forth. Especially when Kerouac was writing that book, were mostly invisible to most Americans. And the idea that true wisdom, true spirituality... Because Kerouac is nothing if not concerned with things of the spirit, Beat. Beat is the root of beatific and also beaten down. That those notions that you could find truth among people who did not share in that sort of cornucopia of American consumer culture, were not white and middle class and living in suburbs, that was at the center of a lot of (19)60s politics. And so when sharecroppers coming along in the early 1960s trying to register to vote, it was an incredibly evocative image for young people, white and black. That is why Fannie Lou Hamer, who becomes a heroine, because it is this, "Illiterate woman," as LBJ referred to her, stood up to the sheriffs. They beat her and she would not back down. And she says, "If these things can happen, I question America." Well, that had a lot of power. Now, that could translate into things, which looking back, I think we are pretty bad, which is the identification of the Black Panthers, the brothers on the block. Well, they must know something we do not know because they have this gritty, urban, authentic experience. And in fact, [inaudible] about what was going to change America. And in fact, their vision was rejected by most black people. Most black people followed Martin Luther King, they followed Bobby Seale. Black Panthers had 5,000 members at their height. SM (01:28:30): Well, can we go over maybe 15 or 20 minutes? MI (01:28:33): Sure. SM (01:28:33): Because I got about five here. One of the things at the very end, I am going to mention just some names and personalities for just quick thoughts. But when you look at this, this was also a protest generation, or at least protest was very important part. Obviously, you had all the rights movements, from the Civil Rights and Women's Rights, Native American, Latina, environmental groups, certainly the anti-war groups. And they even had, which has led into some of the things today, dealing with ageism and mental rights issues and disability rights and so forth, so it is carried on. And that is a very important part of the... I am getting a lot, [inaudible] here. Of all these movements, and there were a lot of them... The Civil Rights Movement is historic, so I am not even really talking about that. And the anti-war movement, we have talked about. And the Women's Movement somehow was a shoot off because of the fact that there was so much sexism going on in the Civil Rights and in the Anti-War Movement. But of all the movements that took place during that period, and as we have gone into the (19)70s and the (19)80s and the (19)90s, and now in the tens, which of the ones are the most successful in terms of consistency and being on-going? Most successful in terms of consistency and being ongoing in their fight and struggle. Are they all that way or have some kind of taken the back burner? They are not as important anymore, or they do not have the leaders like we had before? MI (01:30:16): Well, the civil rights movement was prime formative as, say if you take away the civil rights movement in the (19)60s, it would not have been an anti-war movement. There would not have been witness movement, would not have been in the left counter for anything, would have been small groups like in the (19)50s. But there would not have been movements. It established, it was an inspiration, it was an organizational model. It showed that small groups of people, totally committed, could actually change history. So if you are asking me to rank the movements in terms of importance, I would have to say both in terms of the issues and in terms of the influence that the civil rights movement was the first among equals. Movements can only sustain themselves at that fever pitch of kind of Christ's politics for so many years. The labor movement begins, well just beginning 1930s, but it takes off in the 1930s with the sense that labor is the great news force that is going to transform. Okay. All right. Oh, the labor movement. So the labor movement begins in this kind of fever pitch of commitment idealism and sit down strikes and whatnot. It is going to transform on the world and it becomes institutionalized. It survives, it provides a service function, and in some ways, it becomes bureaucratic in some cases becomes corrupt because you cannot simply be at that crisis edge for forever, wear yourself out. But the moment passes. It is an interesting question. What would have happened to Martin Luther King if he had not been assassinated before 1929? He could well have lived while he had a kind of unhealthy diet, but theoretically he could still be with us today. Would he still be Martin Luther King? Would he be a national icon? Would he be a national holiday after he died? Probably not. Because he would have had to settle down. He would have had to have a life post movement. The people who are around and productive, who came out of that era found a post. John Lewis became a congressman. Loads of good stuff. SM (01:32:52): I have interviewed him. He was great. MI (01:32:52): [inaudible] (19)60s. Yeah. So you cannot sustain, it is an illusion to think that, oh well, civil rights movement, it is not what it used to be. Well, it could not possibly be. It had its moment. Anti-war protest is waxed and waned in the decades since. There were certainly protests against the Iraq war, although interestingly, the biggest ones were before the Iraq War. Somehow it was hard to sustain once the Iraq War actually came and lasted and lasted and lasted. So I am not surprised, and I do not think it is a commentary on the movements of the 1960s that they are not still around in full force and full throat 40 years later. That is the life of social movements, they come and go. SM (01:33:44): One of the criticisms of the social movements today though, is that when protests took place in the (19)60s and early (19)70s, you would see, say for example on Earth Day. Earth Day, Gaylor Nelson consulted with the leaders of SDS before they had the Earth Day on April 22. There was a cooperation and agreement. We do not want us to outshine you, but we would like you to be a participant. There seemed to be signs of all the groups at some of the rallies. Now, this is just my observation. Now, it seems so insular that the gay and lesbian movement is just the gay and lesbian movement signs. The women's issue, just women's movement signs. And civil rights, you do not see any other group. It is all so insular now. MI (01:34:32): Okay. Civil rights movement, for a brief moment, to sort of, I am getting coin the phrase, but the we shall overcome moment of basically 1963, 1965 succeeded to the extent that it seemed to embody not simply the needs interests of black Americans alone, but of all Americans. It is to say white Americans who wanted to live in a true democracy, felt that their interests were being represented by the Civil Rights group. They identified with it. What happens post (19)60s, and this is again part of the rise and fall social movements, is that rather than any movement embodying a kind of larger vision, they fragment and they become interest groups, identity politics, is the phrase that is often used. And it is left to the right to pick up that banner. So Ronald Reagan, speaking about his morning in America and government is not the solution. He is the one who has the compelling narrative that this is about all of us, not just about the interest. And part of the problem with Democratic Party, is that it is political platforms and political message seems to become simply a laundry list of the demands of this or that group, without convincingly portraying itself as speaking in the interest of all Americans. And that is why Barack Obama talks about the need for the post (19)60s political paradigm and also kind of reinvent politics. And they will get past those divisive tags left over from the decade, and I wish them luck. Because it does not seem to be happening at the moment. SM (01:36:27): He is sometimes labeled by his opponents as the epitome of the reincarnation of the (19)60s. MI (01:36:33): Which of course he has no real interest in. I mean Barack Obama is essentially a moderate Republican of the early 1960s. Thinks there is some role for government, it is not central to his vision, thinks some regulation, but he is also a pro-business. I mean, it is ludicrous that people get away with calling it a socialist or a communist, let alone a Nazi dictator. Oh, my God. Do not give me started. SM (01:37:02): Yeah, I know. I hear from some of my relatives. I have to walk out of the room. MI (01:37:09): Yeah, it is insanity. So anyway, so I am not surprised that the civil rights movement is not what it was or the anti-war movement. If people studied in the 1960s, students studied in the 1960s. I hope what they conclude is that, not that they missed everything, but that you can learn from the example, if not the model. It is certainly not the organizational trappings like becoming from SDS. You can learn how social change happens. Just small groups of people study their situation, understand the need for new kind of politics, new kind of movement, devote themselves to a great cause. SM (01:37:54): So many notes here. This is a broad question here, maybe too broad, but what accomplishments lay at the hands of the boomer generation and what disasters lay at the hands of the boomer generation? I think you have already commented on quite a few of them. Anything you want to add to that? MI (01:38:19): No. SM (01:38:20): Technology, would you say technology is a big plus for this generation? MI (01:38:24): Well, not me. I am a technophobe, but I do not even have a cell phone. Right. My children call me a hippie technophobe. SM (01:38:34): I have had it for a couple of years. One of the questions back on here, and this is I have asked quite a few people, this particular, not everybody, but in your own words, describe how the following timeframes influenced and developed the boomer generation, between those born between (19)46 and (19)64. I have known already that people told me you cannot generalize. And when we talk about the first 10-year boomers and the second 10-years, it is almost the difference of night and day. But in terms of these periods, just if you were to briefly describe, if you were in a classroom and the students were asking you, professor, would you describe how 1946 to 1960 shape the boomers, just in a couple sentences, what would that be? 1946 to 1960? MI (01:39:21): Well, I think it has a lot to do with that post World War II period, the great influence of the war, the prosperity sense of a rising expectations. Sense that anything was possible in your own life. Sense of dissatisfaction with disparity between the idealism absorbed from your parents' experience of World War II and some of the senior sides of American life. And then of course the war itself. The war in Vietnam. SM (01:39:58): How about 1961 to 1970? MI (01:40:01): Oh, I cannot break it down like that. SM (01:40:03): Or (19)71 to (19)80. MI (01:40:07): Well, again, my wife was born in 1961. She is a boomer. She got to college in 1979 or 1978. Her life, her experience as a student, her expectations of the world were different to mine. Made a difference, whether it became along the start, middle or the end, used to drive me crazy speaking to when I was doing this kind of interviewing myself with some of the founders of SDS. And they said, "Oh, it is too bad you came along when you did. Too late. You missed everything." Said, "I went to college in 1968. What do you mean I missed everything?" I had to be there in 1962. Really? It was very aggravating. But the experiences were different. SM (01:40:51): Well, there is no question though, that when you talk about that period 1980 and beyond, it is as if the whole world of the boomers and it was all when they were young, nothing mattered really when they were older. Because the era of Reagan is 1980 and beyond. Seems like everything has been influenced by him since. MI (01:41:14): Right. SM (01:41:15): Boomers, instead of criticizing that generation or criticizing the Democratic Party like Barney Frank did and his book, Speaking Frankly, you have got to disassociate yourself from the anti-war and the left wing of the party. Is there anything you can say about the (19)80 to 2010, the last 30 years, in terms of the influence on that generation? MI (01:41:41): I mean, again, the pendulum does not swing. We have this tendency to think in terms of decades. So 1980s is the decade of Reagan, just like the 1960s is the decade of John Kennedy and Malcolm X. But I mean, we forget for example, that 1982, the largest war protest in American history, dwarfed the anti-war protests in 1960s took place, people were terrified Reagan’s getting ready to fight nuclear war, nuclear freeze movement was expanding dramatically. And in June of 1982, 3/4 of a million people marched in Washington, not Washington, in New York City. It was the start of the UN session on nuclear disarmament or something to protest Reagan policies. So our history, our selective memory of the past eliminates it. It is like it did not happen. Or in 1981 crushes the [inaudible] strike. Half million people, summoned by the AFL-CIO, go to Washington on Solidarity day, which was in September, maybe late August of (19)81, to protest the crushing of the strike and that gets airbrushed out too. AFL-CIO, it never had a happening in the streets of Washington. Pete Seager was there, singing Solidarity Forever. He was not usually a feature of AFL-CIO, public events. So it is much too simple to say, okay, well boomer generation or the left wing of the boomer generation, has its moment and then sort of packed its bags and went back in its tent and sulked. And things were going on and also, lots of younger people were involved obviously as well. It was not people who gotten their start in the 1960s. I mean, America has never gone, the pendulum has never swung back to where it was in the 1950s. Things remain contested. And certainly Ronald Reagan changed the equation and spoke to a great public disillusionment of the government, which was itself partially a product. Largely a product in the 1960s, Vietnam and Watergate. But it is not simply that the boomers went away. SM (01:44:17): A lot of the critics of the boomers say they did. But overall, not everyone, because he cannot generalize. MI (01:44:24): So Jerry Rubin started running the meat and meat business so that, you get one sort of iconic figure and you say, oh wow, that is representative of all. SM (01:44:35): And Bobby went off, Bobby Seale went off and did a cookbook. MI (01:44:39): Well, that is wrong with that? Cooking was a big part of [inaudible]. SM (01:44:42): He would talk about that at the conference. MI (01:44:44): I would talk, actually that reminds me of something, which is food. Food in the (19)50s stank. Food in the (19)70s actually got interesting. And today the concern about food, the local food movement and the slow food movement and the Alice Waters and Michael Pollen and all, that is a product of the 1960s. We were in 1971 when I was in a collective, our Bible and our cookbook was Diet for a Small Planet by Francis Moore Lappe. He is still around and still writing, which was about how you could not sustain a meat-based diet. It was going to be bad for the Earth. It is going to lead global warming because the clearing of land in the Amazon for grazing cattle and so on and so forth. I mean, all of that was a product of the 1960s. And there was a movement that was enormously influential, even on people helping of themselves as part of the counterculture part of the left. But white would like to eat healthfully. That would not have happened if it was not in the (19)60s. SM (01:45:53): When you mentioned about food in the (19)50s, I think of two things that immediately come to mind. Number one, milk was brought to your door. Remember they leave milk and then the second thing, they did not have fast food places, but you could not go out and get chicken in the basket. Do you remember that? And that was very popular. What do these things mean to you? These are just quick responses. You already talked about the wall. What does Jackson State and Kent State mean to you? MI (01:46:20): Well, personally was sort of the height of the 1960s. All what happened in 1970 was the moment when it seemed like all things were possible. You could stop the war, you could change America. And you know that it was a deadly serious moment, four dead in Ohio. SM (01:46:46): What is Woodstock mean to you? MI (01:46:48): Well, it means I was 18, I met my girlfriend at Woodstock. SM (01:46:51): You were there? MI (01:46:51): Yeah. I was there. SM (01:46:51): Full four days? MI (01:46:56): No, I was only there for a day and night because I was stupid. Because when you went to it, you did not know it was like this historical event. I mean, I bought tickets for a day. I could not afford to buy tickets for the whole time. Nobody bothered to collect your tickets. And then once I got there, it was really cool and really neat. But you did not realize it, 40 years later, be a museum there. And the Jimmy Hendrix would know, sort of have this defining moment on the very last day if I had known that it would have stayed. SM (01:47:28): Now what entertainers did you actually see and hear? MI (01:47:32): I wrote a piece for the Chronicle Higher Education about them. I had to go check the playlist on Wikipedia. See, I had seen the movie so many times. I was a little confused. But I saw Santana. SM (01:47:44): Oh, what a great piece they did, that one. MI (01:47:45): I saw Jefferson Airplane and I saw Janis Joplin and I saw Sly and the Family Stone. And those are the ones that spring your mind. Oh, and Country Joe. Although there was a dispute about, on different websites about when Country Joe actually performed. But the website I read that persuaded me was he was after he performed. SM (01:48:17): Yeah. And that is where he said, give me an F, give me an O. MI (01:48:20): Well he performed twice was the thing. SM (01:48:22): How far away were you parked? Did you have to walk miles to get to it? MI (01:48:26): Few miles, yeah. I was in the parking lot. Muddy field. SM (01:48:30): What do the hippies and the yippies mean to you? The hippies and the yippies, two different groups. MI (01:48:36): Well, the yippies were sort of the Abby Hoffman, Jerry [inaudible] for the Chicago Democratic Convention. And it was never really an organization. It was just the people who identified with Hoffman who did in politics, which I did not, especially. The hippies were kind of much broader, diffuse. I mean, when I teach this, I draw circles on the board, overlapping circles. And I would say, okay, hippies, do you mean leftist, anti-war protestors? Here is one circle though, hippies. There is another circle that is a new left. A part of new left, the hippies, here is another circle, it is the anti-war movement. Part of the antiwar movement, were hippies and new leftists, but a lot of them were, so they were not all the same category. SM (01:49:27): I interviewed Steven Gaskin, who was a great interview about the farm. Very proud to be a hippie. And they have done unbelievable things too. Inventions. What does Watergate mean to you? MI (01:49:41): Well, Watergate proved we were right all along. SM (01:49:45): Vietnam, veterans against the war? MI (01:49:47): Were central to my understanding of the war. And were heroes to the anti-war movement. And repudiate the motion that there was a split between anti-war protestors, in the one hand, Vietnam veterans on the other. SM (01:50:03): What do the communes mean to you? MI (01:50:05): Well, lots of us were in communes and thinking that this was an alternative to family and work life and home life, that would sustain itself forever. Of course, it did not but it was certainly an interesting moment. I still find it difficult to cook for less than 13 people because I learned to cook mostly rice and vegetables. But I was cooking for the 13 people I lived with. SM (01:50:34): So, you were probably responsible for cooking a meal a week. And then, yeah, because I visited a commune up in Boston, when my brother was a diabetic and everyone responsible for one big dinner a week. MI (01:50:51): And you had to clean up too. And that was good training because it meant be cleaned as you cooked. So a big cleanup still. SM (01:51:01): How about, what does the counterculture mean to you? And that is counterculture, often defined as the music, the long hair, the clothes, the drugs, the sex, the whole thing. MI (01:51:12): Yeah. Well, you just said it. SM (01:51:13): Okay. What does the Black Panthers and black power mean to you? MI (01:51:20): Well, black power was much broader than Black Panthers. Black Panthers, one organizational expression of it, who unfortunately I think had a very negative effect on terms of their sort of gun idolatry and street thug language, which we took to be represented revolutionary authenticity, but was actually just a sort of cult. SM (01:51:46): How about My Lai? What did me My Lai mean to you? MI (01:51:51): My Lai was not exceptional, it was representative. I mean, it is not like people were not being killed every single day in terrible ways in Vietnam. It is just the one that we learned about. SM (01:52:04): And Tet? MI (01:52:06): Tet was the turning point. SM (01:52:11): The last part here is, where is my list at? These are just responding very few words. So these personalities or terms? Oh, I do have one question before the final thing here. In about the last 30 to 40 interviews, I have said that there are three slogans that I personally think kind of identify the boomer generation. And the other people had said, we shall overcome. And I wish I did not have on there some. But they are, the more violent aspects of this period are symbolized by Malcolm X, by any means necessary. MI (01:52:48): Okay. SM (01:52:48): Second is the quote that Bobby Kennedy used. It was a quote from another author, obviously. And that is, "Some men see things as they are and ask why. I see things that never were and ask why not." Which is symbolic of an activism, a positive mentality, non-violent protest. Seeing injustice and wanting to create justice wherever you see it. And the third one is kind of a hippie mentality, that was on a lot of the posters. The Peter Max posters were great for that counterculture in the early (19)70s. And I had one hanging in my room at Ohio State, and that was, "You do your thing, I will do mine. If by chance we should come together, that will be beautiful." Which was a hippie mentality. And then of course the civil rights mentality was, we shall overcome. And the only other one that people have mentioned was Kennedy's, "Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country." And then the other one was Timothy O' Leary, "To an intern on dropout." Are there any other slogans you think really symbolize? Does that cover it? MI (01:53:53): Bob Dylan lyrics are endlessly mineable for insights in these (19)60s. I think I already mentioned, "Do not follow leaders, watch the parking meters." SM (01:54:01): Right. MI (01:54:02): "You do not need a weather man to know which way the wind blows." And so forth. SM (01:54:05): Oh yeah. MI (01:54:06): Subterranean homesick blues. We used to sit down and play it endlessly and analyze it over and over again. SM (01:54:13): Who were your favorite, besides Bob Dylan, who were your favorite rock musicians? Did you have to have a message in your music or did you just, you would like the combination of message and just great sound? MI (01:54:31): Well, I mean the Doors, not political group a message except sex is a message. The approach of the apocalypse is a message. So nothing would surprise you. The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Janis Joplin, Credence Clearwater, Country Joe. SM (01:55:01): Were there any Motown performers that you really dug? MI (01:55:05): Not so much. I mean, although I think that is a weakness in my musical education, but I mean, I am certainly hear about all the time. So it was part of the musical backdrop. SM (01:55:16): Did you ever listen to what is going on by Marvin Gay, which is just one of the greatest? We will end with these, history responded with a very few words to these people or [inaudible]. MI (01:55:28): Actually one local group, local to the West Coast, Joy of Cooking. You do not hear much about them, they were a Berkeley group. Came, when I was in Portland. They would come up and play, were sort of cult followers of Joy of Cooking, partially because they had women lead guitarists, which was quite unusual in those days. SM (01:55:45): You were at the Summer of Love too, were not you? Did you say you were there or no? MI (01:55:48): I was in Indianapolis. SM (01:55:51): Oh, okay. That is right. That is right. MI (01:55:52): We were conscious, that was going on. Everybody laughed at the Scott Mackenzie song, which is now sort of seen as this anthem of the Summer of Love. Sergeant Pepper was really the soundtrack for that summer. SM (01:56:06): How about, my first one is Tom Hayden. Thoughts on Tom Hayden? MI (01:56:08): Tom is a smart guy. I interviewed him myself, many years ago. And I think he had a sort of complicated politics, years that followed. Sometimes it is true, there are no second acts in American lives. And I think he is an example of it. SM (01:56:32): He has written a lot of good books though. MI (01:56:33): Yeah, well he was absolutely essential in 1960s. Very brave guy. I was a young reporter from an underground newspaper and I was trying to formulate a question. I could not come up with a way of doing it. He very sort of gently steered me to the formula I still use. He said, "Well, some people would argue this. What would you say to that?" Shaping the question for him. Oh, yes. See, I was floundering. He had been a reporter, student reporter, for the Ann Arbor Daily. So whenever I use that formulation, I think of Tom. SM (01:57:07): I will remember that. MI (01:57:07): Some people would argue. What do you think? SM (01:57:12): Jane Fonda? MI (01:57:14): Well, Jane got a bad rap. I actually met Jane Fonda. Jane and Tom, in fact, came from Portland and part of the China Peace campaign in 1973. I washed her dirty laundry. That is fine. She is the most stunningly beautiful woman I had ever seen in my life at that point. She was 30 and I was just a kid. So I had never met a Hollywood star. And it is true, they are kind of incandescently walk into a room. Also, your jaw drops. SM (01:57:44): And she had lived with what is his name for a long time before she met Tom. MI (01:57:49): Roger Vadim. SM (01:57:50): Yeah. Roger Vadim. And she did Barbella. MI (01:57:53): Barbarella. So I mean, all the stuff about her being Hanoi Jane. Had one bad photograph taken, but lots of people were traveling to Hanoi. John Baez traveled to Hanoi, actually got caught in an American bombing raid. So it was not a treasonous act. SM (01:58:14): How about the Kennedy brothers? Just quick thoughts on John Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. MI (01:58:18): Yeah. Well, John Kennedy was a figure in the (19)50s, not the (19)60s, and did not care about domestic reform and was remembered as a reformer, but because of the civil rights movement, picked him up and pushed him in a direction he would not have gone himself. I think Robert Kennedy, under a much more fundamental transformation. He was younger, more attuned to the moment. And it is an interesting question. If Sirhan Sirhan's elbow, had been jostled at the last moment, I think Robert Kennedy would have received democratic nomination in (19)68, and we would not be talking about the onset of the conservative era with Richard Nixon. One of those moments of contingency as we historians, like you say, where a historical accident changes what followed. SM (01:59:15): How about LBJ and Hubert Humphrey? MI (01:59:20): Well, they are both kind tragic figures. They wanted to be domestic reformers and they wound up creating and apologizing for terrible work. SM (01:59:36): Dwight Eisenhower? MI (01:59:39): Eisenhower looks better, as the years pass. Partially because the Republican presidents who followed him were so terrible. This is not my insight, but political scientists, what is his name? He said that the New deal was ratified by Dwight Eisenhower because... The New Deal was ratified by Dwight Eisenhower because when he came into office, he did nothing to dismantle it. He was not an anti-government crusader, he in some ways expanded it. The largest public works projects in the history of the United States were the Federal Highway Act of 1956, which he pushed for. SM (02:00:19): Right. And the Eisenhower Locks up in the North. MI (02:00:21): Yeah. And again, in terms of foreign policy, although John Foster Dulles talked a mean game about rolling back communism, Eisenhower was pretty cautious. SM (02:00:32): What about Richard Nixon and Spiro Agnew? MI (02:00:38): I tell my students that you only really hate one president in your life, so choose carefully. Because I really utterly, totally loathed Richard Nixon. And there have been Presidents since whose policies I have found repellent, but I cannot summon the level of vitriol that I did for Richard Nixon. And Agnew was joined at the hip with him. SM (02:01:04): Eugene McCarthy and George McGovern? MI (02:01:08): Well, I have met McGovern, brought him here to speak. And he was the first Presidential candidate I voted for in 1972. I think he would have been a good President. McCarthy had the courage that Bobby Kennedy lacked to challenge a sitting incumbent Democrat, so it is an admirable act. SM (02:01:30): You have already talked about Malcolm, but just comparing thoughts on Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, Jr. MI (02:01:36): Well, King was a great... They are often thought of as the moderate and the radical. But King was, to my mind, the better radical. And he really talked of... First of all, he was more realistic politically. He could build coalitions which Malcolm X could not do. And lead great consent, and actually risked his life, while Malcolm was killed by his own followers or ex-followers of the nation of Islam, whereas King was on the front lines of endless confrontations and responded non-violently. King was a real radical, and we forget that the slogan of the (19)63 March on Washington was not just Freedom Now, it was Jobs and Freedom. In the beginning, he wanted to link economic change with social and political change, and that was what he wound up doing at the end. We also forget how unpopular he was. Now, we are so in love with King, we think he is so wonderful. But many Americans hated him for opposing the war. His coming out against the war in spring of 1967 was enormously influential and legitimizing for people like us who were just beginning to cover anti-war politics. SM (02:02:49): But of course, Ronald Reagan, Gerald Ford, and George Bush the first. I make a comment on Ronald Reagan when he came in, he emphatically said, "We are back," which means that the military is going to get stronger again. We are going to change the military. And then of course, Vietnam syndrome is over. And I remember George Bush saying, number one, saying that. So those three, Bush, Ford, and Reagan. MI (02:03:16): Well, Ford was an accidental President and was not in office long enough to move or do anything too bad. Reagan's politics, again, I find the antithesis of my own, both domestically and in terms of foreign policy. But Reagan is actually remembered as having won the Cold War. Well, I think he contributed to the end of the Cold War in the sense that he actually made an opening to Gorbachev, allowed Gorbachev to be Gorbachev. It was not by saber-rattling or building expensive, useless systems like Star Wars that he brought about the end of the Soviet Empire. Rather it was by seeking agreements. Reagan and Gorbachev signed the only arms limitation agreement which actually is an arms reduction agreement. The IMF, I believe in 1987, all the others, assault ones, simply said, "Okay, you can build more bombs, but you have to stop at this point." And Reagan, again, this is sometimes forgotten, at one point, meaning I think it was at Reykjavik or Reykjavik, however you say that said to Gorbachev, "Why do not we just do away with nuclear weapons all altogether?" Which horrified his own hawkish advisors, Reagan's advisors. Because he actually had this utopian streak. He actually really loathed nuclear weapons, and the idea of nuclear warfare he found genuinely horrifying. And we forget that. So Gorbachev thinking, "Okay, I have got this soulmate in Washington," was then able to step back from Afghanistan, from Eastern Europe. In 1989, the Soviets had 400,000 soldiers in East Germany. And Gorbachev said, "Stay on your bases. Do not interfere." If they wanted to crack down on what was going on in East Germany, they could have put an end to that real quick. But Gorbachev said, "It is a new world. We have to get used to it. If we lose Eastern Europe, we lose Eastern Europe." SM (02:05:24): Do you talk to your students at all in the (19)60s course about Ronald Reagan's coming to power as governor of California? MI (02:05:31): Yeah. SM (02:05:32): And what is really- MI (02:05:33): It is another of those ways in which the (19)60s were seed time for the conservative revival. SM (02:05:40): I interviewed Ed Meese, and it was great because he was the Assistant District Attorney of Alameda County. And at the time of the free, excuse me, yeah, Free Speech Movement. And he was not working for Reagan at the time, but he heard about him and they did not know each other. And then, of course, he had appointed him to be in his administration. And of course, he was involved with the People's Park crackdown and heavily involved in that. And of course, Reagan came to power dealing with the students. MI (02:06:15): Yeah, I will tell you a (19)60s story that has something to do with People's Park. Hamilton had compulsory chapel, been a part of the college since the beginning and had been whittled down over the years so that by 1964, there was only one... You only had to go on Sunday. We used to have to go twice a day every day of the week. But in 1964, Hamilton, which again is a sort of small, isolated men's college in upstate New York, but not the cutting edge of politics. But in spring of 1964, a freshman by the name of Daniel Steinman wrote a letter to the Spectators, this college newspaper, saying, "This is ridiculous. Why do we have to do this? It is an infringement on our conscience, and religious freedom and so on and so forth. I call on my fellow students to refuse to go into chapel on next Sunday, instead sit non-violently, not blocking way, to sit on the chapel steps instead." And 150 Hamilton students did so. SM (02:07:14): Oh, my God. MI (02:07:14): It is not like this was a hot bed of radicals. SM (02:07:15): Oh, yes. MI (02:07:19): Most of the people that did so just did not want to go to compulsory chapel. And a month later the trustees said, "Okay, no more compulsory chapel." So this 150-year-old tradition came to an end because this one college freshman said enough is enough. SM (02:07:33): That is student empowerment, really. That is the... MI (02:07:37): There is a correlation to this. SM (02:07:38): Okay. MI (02:07:40): So three years later he graduates and he goes off to the University of California to start law school at Bull Palm. And he was elected as the president of ASUP, Associated Students University of California. And at a rally in May of 1969, he is the guy who says, at the end of his speech, "Let us go take the park." So Daniel Steinman, who had gotten his start in radical politics leading a sit-in on the front steps of the chapel was the one who sent the mob marching on People's Park, which resulted in a month of civil disturbance, helicopters, James Rector getting killed, helicopters dropping CS gas on Sproul Plaza. SM (02:08:19): That is right. Yeah. MI (02:08:21): So I do not know whether he was happy with that distinction, but... SM (02:08:25): That is irony, though. He is a historic figure then really, when you think about it. MI (02:08:30): Yeah. SM (02:08:30): Are they proud of him here at Hamilton? MI (02:08:32): I do not think they- SM (02:08:34): They hide it. MI (02:08:35): Well, neither. I am writing the bicentennial history of the college. I just finished writing it, and I put him into the book just because I thought it was an interesting sideline. SM (02:08:43): That is an interesting sideline. MI (02:08:45): But I do not know how I stumbled on that fact. SM (02:08:47): But that, because I had mentioned People's Park with Ed Meese. MI (02:08:49): Right. But I do not know how I found out about Steinman's role, but I thought it was quite interesting. He still practices law. I look him up on the website. SM (02:08:57): When I am done with my interview, I want tell you a story that Ed Meese told me. I do not want to ruin it here now, though. The Berrigan brothers, Phillip and Daniel Berrigan and Dr. Benjamin Spock. MI (02:09:09): Well, the Berrigan brothers kind of emblematic of the Catholic Left, which also often gets left out of the story. And some relationship to, though independent of the Catholic worker movement, were very significant figures. And of course, Philip Berrigan was... There were crimes that they committed. Crimes? They threw blood on draft records. But Philip Berrigan was at the center of one of these alleged conspiracies, which jurors were rejecting. The Harrisburg Seven were acquitted, like the Gainesville Eight. Nixon Justice firm was setting up these elaborate conspiracy indictments against different groups, Catholic Left and Vietnam Veterans Against the War. And by the early 1970s, ordinary jurors, middle-aged, middle class jurors simply were not buying government propaganda, throwing those things out of the court. SM (02:10:11): How about Spock? MI (02:10:15): I was raised as a Spock baby. Simple version of that is permissiveness. Dr. Spock created this whole generation of so on and so forth. But actually just continued to trend towards child-centered families that had been developing since the early 19th century. SM (02:10:34): In my job at the university, we brought Daniel and Phillip to the campus. We brought Daniel, and then we brought Phillip, and Elizabeth McAllister, his wife, and he gave his last presentation in Phillip's library three weeks before he died, his last public presentations at Westchester University. MI (02:10:52): Interesting. SM (02:10:53): I went, because we had honored Frederick Douglass, who gave his last speech in 1895 at Westchester University. And I went to the administration and I said, "I think we need to put a plaque inside the room that this was the location where Phillip Berrigan gave his last speech." You can guess what they told me to do. Take a hike and jump off a bridge. MI (02:11:24): Do you have a watch on? SM (02:11:24): Oh, yeah. MI (02:11:24): Just to make sure of the time. At some point I [inaudible]. SM (02:11:24): Yeah. It is 4:00. I only got maybe five, six more minutes here. MI (02:11:28): Okay. SM (02:11:28): The other ones are certainly the Black Panthers, Bobby Seale, Eldridge Cleaver, Kathleen Cleaver, Stokely Carmichael, H Rap Brown, Huey Newton, that group, they were all unique and different personalities, but they were all part of that group. MI (02:11:42): Right. Well, I think overall the impact of the Black Panthers was very negative on the Black left and on the white left as well, with the sort of gun idolatry and the adventurous politics that they represented. SM (02:12:05): The others, Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers. MI (02:12:09): Ellsberg was central, the original whistleblower, and also a boon to historians. Most histories of the Vietnam War down to the present are simply glosses on the Pentagon Papers. And that was the basic documentary record. SM (02:12:25): Angela Davis, she was not a Black Panther. MI (02:12:28): No. Well, I think Angela Davis went to Paris on the Hamilton Junior Year Abroad program. She was a Brandeis student, so she had a Hamilton connection. A very charismatic figure. I think she was guilty as health. She was another acquittal, but I have no doubt that she was involved with buying the guns that were used in the Marin County Courthouse Shootout. SM (02:12:55): That is the one where George Jackson's brother was involved. MI (02:12:58): Dr. Jackson. SM (02:12:58): He got killed, did not he? I think. MI (02:12:59): He was killed. SM (02:13:00): Yeah. Let us see, just a few more here. Robert McNamara and Woodward and Bernstein. MI (02:13:09): Well, McNamara, he saw what he had done. He was horrified by it. He was weeping in his office in the Pentagon, but he kept his mouth shut for 30 odd years. And then when he spoke out finally in 1995 about what he really thought, he found himself loathed both by the left and the right, both by people who had supported the war and people who opposed the war. And was not an admirable figure. He was the architect of the war. Kept silent when speaking out might actually have made a difference. On the other hand, you cannot imagine Donald Rumsfeld ever 30 years later saying, "Gee, the Iraq War was not such a good idea after all." SM (02:13:55): And Woodward and Bernstein? MI (02:13:58): Well, they did not bring down Nixon by themselves. Judge John Sirica was probably much more instrumental in that. But they got on the story early and they pursued it. And they owned it in a way that... SM (02:14:10): Timothy Leary. MI (02:14:12): Showman, opportunist, obviously influenced a lot of people. SM (02:14:20): Muhammad Ali. MI (02:14:23): Very important figure, again, in that sort of sense of personal transformation. So central to (19)60s politics and (19)60s culture. Great fighter. SM (02:14:34): The female leaders, which Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Bella Abzug, Shirley Chisholm, some of that group of politicians. MI (02:14:42): Yeah. If you go back and you read the Feminine Mystique, in much the same way as we were talking about the Civil Rights movement, it is not really just about women. It is about what kind of families do we want to have? What kind of society do we want to have? And I think part of its success, its influence was that lots of people can identify with it. Obviously, women were her main constituency and readership, but it was one of those moments when the feminism was speaking with a universal appeal. SM (02:15:25): SDS and the Weathermen, I think you have already talked about them. How about the American Indian Movement? Your thoughts on... That was a four-year phenomenon, really. MI (02:15:34): Yeah. It was an example of the influence of the civil rights movement that all kinds of other subgroups suddenly began to see themselves as having rights that needed to be defended in a confrontational style. They skirted. Well, they did not skirt, they embraced the violent politics, which I think worked against them. And their leader is still in jail many decades later. SM (02:16:01): Barry Goldwater and William Buckley. MI (02:16:05): Reinvented American conservatism. SM (02:16:09): Jackie Robinson. MI (02:16:13): Obviously, major figure in terms of the idea that American athletics was all white up through the end of the 1940s is kind of astounding in a sense. SM (02:16:26): He was a supporter of Richard Nixon. I could not believe that. MI (02:16:31): Right. Well, Nixon, for a while, Martin Luther King thought that Nixon had really good racial politics in the 1950s. SM (02:16:41): Chicago Eight. MI (02:16:48): You would have to separate them out. Some of them I think were incredibly important. And responsible figures like Dave Bellinger, Hayden obviously left. Jerry and Abby were entertaining clowns. SM (02:17:03): Bobby Seale was. MI (02:17:05): Bobby Seale. SM (02:17:05): Lee Weiner was in that group. He is still an activist. I think he is an environmental activist. And he has actually been involved in Jewish rights all over the world. I am trying to find the two that you do not hear about are Lee Weiner and the professor out in California, the eighth person. MI (02:17:26): Yeah, I know. SM (02:17:27): Anyways. But they are both still involved. MI (02:17:29): Right. SM (02:17:30): But you do not hear about it as much. And I guess we will finish with how important you feel the Free Speech Movement was overall and the Peace Corps. MI (02:17:43): Well, the Free Speech Movement sort of established a paradigm for campus protestors. Just to say that up to that point, protests had been launched from campuses, but not directed at university policy. And thereafter, university policy would become a central concern of new left activists. The difference was that the Free Speech Movement thought of itself as defending the best principles of the university with general intellectual and liberal arts principles as opposed to sort of the corporate shill aspects of the university. Later on- SM (02:18:22): Okay. MI (02:18:23): I was saying the Free Speech Movement identified with the universities, even while challenging university policy. But later on, I think unfortunately the universities came to be identified as, he was caught in the bushes, as the enemy, as part of the war machine and just shut it down. SM (02:18:47): And the Peace Corps, is this times of service? MI (02:18:51): Still here, part of the inspirational, idealistic side of the Kennedy administration. SM (02:19:00): The only last ones I have here is, of course, 1963 was the assassination of President Kennedy. Where were you? Do you remember the exact location where you were when you heard he had been killed? MI (02:19:12): Yeah, I was in eighth grade. I was in art class. Our teacher, Mrs. Williams, walked in the door and she was weeping, which impressed the heck out of me. I knew something important happened, because I had never seen an adult authority figure, let alone a teacher, crying. So we were all sent home, watched television the next four days, including Oswald's assassination. SM (02:19:37): Yes. You saw it live, too. MI (02:19:38): Well, I do not think I saw it live. SM (02:19:39): I did. MI (02:19:40): I saw in endless loop thereafter. SM (02:19:42): Yeah. MI (02:19:43): And then the funeral, the state funeral on... SM (02:19:49): He wants to go in. He wants to go in. I am down to my last three here. Okay. Let us see where my... Yeah. And the second one, do you remember where you were when you heard that Bobby Kennedy and Martin Luther King were killed? Exact moment. MI (02:20:21): I do not remember Martin Luther King. I remember it happened. And I remember hearing about Kennedy's assassination the next morning on television. And by that point, assassinations had become so commonplace that I just sort of thought, "There is another one." SM (02:20:46): Were you in front of- MI (02:20:47): It was so much less powerful an experience than hearing that John Kennedy had shot, which itself is testimony to how common assassination had become. SM (02:20:59): Were you very fearful on the Cuban Missile Crisis that we- MI (02:21:02): I was not aware of it. SM (02:21:05): Okay. And the last one I have here is just the black and white TV of the fifties, which is Walt Disney, Howdy Doody, Hopalong Cassidy, those kinds of television shows. What were your favorite shows as a kid? Did you watch all those, too? MI (02:21:21): Sure. I was totally swept up in the Davy Crockett craze, which was the first great- SM (02:21:26): And Fess Parker just passed away recently. MI (02:21:27): I saw that. I played something for my students from YouTube with Fess Parker David Crockett. SM (02:21:33): Oh, wow. MI (02:21:34): I could sing all the words when I was five. SM (02:21:35): King of the wild frontier. MI (02:21:40): King of the wild frontier. Born on the mountaintop in Tennessee. SM (02:21:42): Greatest state in the land of the free. MI (02:21:44): Yeah. Killed in a bar when he was only three. Lived in the woods, so he knew every tree. Killed in a bar when he was only three. SM (02:21:49): Davy, Davy Crockett. Buddy Ebsen was his sidekick. MI (02:21:52): Yep. So yes, obviously. And all those westerns, I could bore you by singing theme songs to at least a half a dozen of them. SM (02:22:03): Have Gun Will Travel reads the card of a man. MI (02:22:03): A knight without honor in a savage land. SM (02:22:03): Yep. MI (02:22:03): So yes, I was a child with the television. SM (02:22:13): And those TV shows, those family, Donna Reed Show, Father Knows Best, Leave It to Beaver. Well, that was the ideal family of the fifties, but, boy, it was really hiding what was reality in the- MI (02:22:29): Yeah, I had a working mother, so it did not seem to describe my family. She was not standing around the kitchen in pearls and high heels washing the kitchen floor. Also, our kitchen would not look like theirs. SM (02:22:42): The last two Presidents are the Bill Clinton and George Bush. What are your thoughts on them? Because they are the only Boomer presidents. MI (02:22:49): That is right. SM (02:22:49): And someone said, "When you see their weaknesses, you are saying you can tell they are Boomers." I have had a couple people tell me that. Can you say that they are Boomers by looking at their life and their- MI (02:23:03): No. George Bush missed the (19)60s. He was a (19)50s character. He was consumed with his fraternity of skull and bones, or whatever it was. SM (02:23:14): Right. MI (02:23:17): So he was not really a (19)60s character at all. Clinton, sure, he was a (19)60s character. He was also... It is not like everybody who came out of the (19)60s was a womanizer with a taste for women with big hair. He was who he was. He is like a lot of politicians, which is an interesting point. Compare him to John Kennedy. John Kennedy makes Clinton look like a piker. Bill Clinton only had one affair while he was in the White House. John Kennedy had hundreds of women cycling through. So Clinton famously met Kennedy. He thought the rules had not changed. He thought he could be John Kennedy, the open zipper presidency. SM (02:23:59): Wow. MI (02:24:00): So was John Kennedy a typical boomer? Hardly. SM (02:24:08): Yeah. This is the absolute last question. And that is, when the best history books are written, or sociology books you know as a historian, they are often written 50 years after an event. And my question is when the best history books or sociology books are written on the Boomer generation after the last Boomer has died? MI (02:24:31): Probably so. SM (02:24:32): Yeah. What do you think history will say about that generation? MI (02:24:40): Well, that is one of those impossible questions, isn't it? I think we have much better histories of the Civil War being written now than were written when a Civil War veteran was alive, so I think that is true. We will understand the (19)60s finally when we are all gone. But it is precisely because I am part of the moment. And when I teach this course, I say to my students, "You have to be able to separate out when I am speaking with my historian's hat on and when I am speaking as an artifact." And you can learn from both, but there are some different messages involved. SM (02:25:16): Very-very good. Is there a question I did not ask that you thought I was going to ask? MI (02:25:20): No. SM (02:25:20): Well, thank you very much. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Maurice Isserman Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Isserman, Maurice ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource College teachers; Hamilton College (Clinton, N.Y.); Radicalism--United States; Isserman, Maurice--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Maurice Isserman, born in Hartford, Connecticut, is a professor at Hamilton College and an accomplished author. He got his Bachelor of Arts in History from Reed College and his Master of Arts in American History and his Ph.D. from the University of Rochester. Dr. Isserman specializes in modern U.S. History, American radical movements, and global exploration and mountaineering. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource ND Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.130a; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.130b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 145:25 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/668a240a08c81e5b4462be9397f98827.jpg 347bc88afcf669ad5a2569f444b92663 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/eecac2e5585aa4d596805f7306a9a000.mp3 998e3975f4849bd0f468415fbb940363 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-07-30 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Alan Wolfe, 1942- Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Alan Wolfe is a political scientist, scholar, and a sociologist. Dr. Wolfe is a professor of Political Science and director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life at Boston College. He is also a member of the Advisory Board of the Future of American Democracy Foundation. Wolfe received his Ph.D. from Temple University and his Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Pennsylvania. He also has honorary degrees from Loyola College in Maryland and St. Joseph's University.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5039,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Dr. Alan Wolfe is a political scientist, scholar, and a sociologist. Dr. Wolfe is a professor of Political Science and director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life at Boston College. He is also a member of the Advisory Board of the Future of American Democracy Foundation. Wolfe received his Ph.D. from Temple University and his Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Pennsylvania. He also has honorary degrees from Loyola College in Maryland and St. Joseph's University.</span> Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Vietnam Veterans; Free speech movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Panthers; Young Lords; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Vietnam Memorial; Emmett Till; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5045,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;7&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Vietnam Veterans; Free speech movement; Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Black Panthers; Young Lords; Native American/ American Indian Movement; Vietnam Memorial; Emmett Till; Vietnam War; Baby boom generation.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 90:46 Subject LCSH Political scientists; Sociologists; College teachers; Boston College; Wolfe, Alan, 1942--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Alan Wolfe Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wolfe, Alan, 1942- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Political scientists; Sociologists; College teachers; Boston College; Wolfe, Alan, 1942--Interviews Description An account of the resource Dr. Alan Wolfe is a political scientist, scholar, and a sociologist. Dr. Wolfe is a professor of Political Science and director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life at Boston College. He is also a member of the Advisory Board of the Future of American Democracy Foundation. Wolfe received his Bachelor of Science from Temple University and his Ph.D. in Political Science from the University of Pennsylvania. He also has honorary degrees from Loyola College in Maryland and St. Joseph's University.ph's University. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-07-30 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.174a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.174b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 90:46 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/20ec3be45fc53d0d2ff785fe01e0cc88.jpg 6c47375f4fda7b31a929aa9800f1ef16 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1c7f2cb01d77f0138c58a519cfd291ba.mp3 a8c06fef3b3a65bde52b261842f36bf6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-11-23 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Randy Shaw, 1956- Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Randy Shaw is an attorney, author and activist. He is the executive director and co-founder of the Tenderloin Housing Clinic, as well as the co-founder and a Board member of Directors of Uptown Tenderloin, Inc., and the editor of the newspaper, Beyond Chron. Shawn has written five books on activism. He received his Juris Doctor degree from Hastings Law School.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:5039,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:1},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,5099745],&quot;5&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;6&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;8&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:[{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;5&quot;:[null,2,0]},{&quot;1&quot;:0,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;3&quot;:3},{&quot;1&quot;:1,&quot;2&quot;:0,&quot;4&quot;:1}]},&quot;10&quot;:2,&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;}">Randy Shaw is an attorney, author, and activist. He is the executive director and co-founder of the Tenderloin Housing Clinic, as well as the co-founder and a Board member of Directors of Uptown Tenderloin, Inc., and the editor of the newspaper, Beyond Chron. Shawn has written five books on activism. He received his Juris Doctor degree from Hastings Law School.</span> Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 Microcassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Affirmative action; Proposition 13; Activism; Activist Handbook; Illegal immigration; Baby boom generation; Tenure in the nineteen seventies; Nineteen seventies; Vietnam War&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:1,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0}}">Affirmative action; Proposition 13; Activism; Activist Handbook; Illegal immigration; Baby boom generation; Tenure in the nineteen seventies; Nineteen seventies; Vietnam War</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 42:07 Subject LCSH Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Civil rights workers; Shaw, Randy, 1956--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Randy Shaw Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Shaw, Randy, 1956- ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Lawyers; Authors, American--20th century; Civil rights workers; Shaw, Randy, 1956--Interviews Description An account of the resource Randy Shaw is an attorney, author and activist. He is the executive director and co-founder of the Tenderloin Housing Clinic, co-founder and a Board member of Directors of Uptown Tenderloin, Inc., editor of Beyond Chron. Shawn has written five books on activism. He received his Juris Doctor degree from Hastings Law School. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-11-23 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.147 Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2018-03-29 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 42:07 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/1bb025971bbe1fe133c088980ab91587.jpg 5fa9658b75f35ba089ac15af29de9b1b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/8c88eb894f70071cc1591da72d8a968f.mp3 acbba5227040ef65fb669010373df51f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 2010-12-03 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Robert Edgar, 1943-2013 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Robert William Edgar (1943-2013) was a businessman, administrator and politician. Edgar was a member of the Democratic Party and congressman in Pennsylvania for 6 terms. He received his Bachelor's degree from Lycoming College in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, and a Master of Divinity degree from the Theological School of Drew University in Madison, New Jersey. Edgar died from a heart attack after running on the treadmill at his home.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:15105,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0,&quot;14&quot;:[null,2,0],&quot;15&quot;:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;16&quot;:10}">Robert William Edgar (1943-2013) was a businessman, administrator, and politician. Edgar was a member of the Democratic Party and congressman in Pennsylvania for 6 terms. He received his Bachelor's degree from Lycoming College in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, and a Master of Divinity degree from the Theological School of Drew University in Madison, New Jersey. Edgar died from a heart attack after running on the treadmill at his home.</span> Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 2 Microcassettes Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Religion; Bishop Fulton J. Sheen; National Council Churches; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Environment; Poverty; Televangelist; Ronald Reagan; Brown v. Board of Education; Baby boom generation; Fox News; MSNBC; Pete McCloskey; Anti-War Movement.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:3,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:13689059}}">Religion; Bishop Fulton J. Sheen; National Council Churches; Assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.; Environment; Poverty; Televangelist; Ronald Reagan; Brown v. Board of Education; Baby boom generation; Fox News; MSNBC; Pete McCloskey; Anti-War Movement.</span> Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 137:41 Subject LCSH Legislators—United States--Pennsylvania; Democratic Party (Pa.); Edgar, Robert, 1943-2013--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Robert William Edgar Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: 3 December 2010 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:00:01): Thank you very much for agreeing to be part of this. The interview itself includes questions that have been asked to all people, but there are also some specific questions that have been geared toward your life as well. How did you become who you are? Could you describe your upbringing, your high school and college years, and maybe some of the role models and or historic figures you read about that inspired you? BE (00:00:31): I am glad I gave you a copy of my book so you can find out all the details because the book is more of a biography of how I have done what I have done. As you know, I have been a United Methodist minister. I have been a congressman. I have been a faculty member at Swarthmore College. I ran a finance area for Senator Paul Simon of Illinois when he ran for president. I was head of the Committee for National Security under Paul Warnke, who negotiated the SALT II agreement. I spent 10 years as president of a graduate school. I spent seven and a half years as head of the National Council of Churches. And now I have been three years as president of Common Cause. All of my vocational life in all those different professions have centered around my mantra, which I have kind of rephrased in the last couple of years. But it is to address fear, fundamentalism, and Fox News with a commitment to peace, poverty, and planet Earth. My wife of 46 years, who I have known for 52 years, will tell you I only have one speech and a thousand illustrations, focused on ending the poverty that kills, healing the earth, and working on peace and nonviolence issues. Now, you asked the question, how'd I get started? I grew up in a blue-collar family, in a white-collar community. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia. While we were in a lower economic bracket than our neighbors and friends, my father never owned an automobile, never drove a car. I taught my mother how to drive when she was 48 years old. We did everything on buses and trolleys between Philadelphia, upper Darby, Chester, Media, communities around Philadelphia. We were, my brother and I, my older brother, we were sent to church so that my mother and father could sleep in on Sunday mornings. And I went to Sunday school and church services in the Methodist Church. And in those days, which was in the 1950s, there were an awful lot of progressive ministers who were linking gospel messages to civil rights, human rights, people's rights. When I became 15, 16, I went to a church camp, and I discovered some ministers that taught me that ministers do not have to be boring, that they can be committed to social justice. I also took a tour of some poverty areas in Philadelphia and was surprised by my reaction to seeing poor people. In June of 1968, the Methodist Church sent me to 11 countries in Europe... not (19)68, in 1961, they sent me to 11 countries, including Italy, Germany, Austria, France, but I also got in behind the Iron Curtain in Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1961. And one of the most powerful experiences was in an orphanage that we visited in Naples, Italy. You had to travel by bus through a terrible slum, seeing the worst poverty you could see. And the bus went through a large, gated building, and inside were a couple hundred children who were orphans, all clean, all dressed, all cared for by faith-related folks, all singing and joyful. And so the contrast between the abject poverty on the outside of the building and the care that was given on the inside, had an impact on me. I had decided pretty early on to be a minister and thought that my whole life was going to be in the ministry. I wanted to be an urban minister, and in fact, that is the direction I went. A couple other incidents shaped my thinking. One was at age 19, I became pastor of my own church called the Gilberton United Methodist Church in Gilberton, Pennsylvania. This is June of 1962. I am all of 19, had never been to a funeral. I was given permission to do communion and baptisms and weddings, and most of it was to pay my way through college. After they had given churches to ordained elders in the Methodist church and retired ministers and seminary students, they had churches left over. And so as a young, beginning my second year in college, I was pastor of a church. And the interesting thing was, the church in Gilberton, the whole town was owned by the Gilberton Coal company. All of the parishioners were related to the coal mine. They owned only the inside of their houses. The coal company owned all the land underneath their houses. And it was a strip mining area. The men were all dying in their 50s of black lung disease. And even though the people were very poor, they were very loving and caring and adopted a young preacher, taught me a lot. So those kinds of experience began to move me. I would say another defining experience, which I do describe in the book, is in February of 1968, I was invited by William Sloane Coffin, who was at that time the chaplain at Yale, later to become a minister at Riverside Church in New York. But Bill Coffin invited a group of people concerned about the Vietnam War to a meeting here in Washington at the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church. And I boarded a bus in northern New Jersey where I was at seminary and traveled to Washington for the first time. And as we got to the door of the church, the bus came to the curb. The radical religious right of that day was a guy by the name of Carl McIntire, and he was out of Cape May, New Jersey. He was the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Dobson of that day. And he had organized a protest carrying signs that said, "Kill a commie for Christ's sake," and trying to get us not to cross his picket line. And as coming out of a blue-collar union family, I broke my father's dictum, never to cross a picket line, and went inside the church, went up into the balcony of the church, and listened to speaker after speaker connect the issue of poverty and war. And in doing that, I began to recalibrate my own thinking. And the keynote speaker was a young guy, 39 years of age, by the name of Dr. Martin Luther King. SM (00:08:48): Oh, my God. BE (00:08:48): This is five weeks before he was assassinated. And he inspired me. I think of myself as a disciple of Dr. King, read his material. Less than 10 years later, by accident, I got elected to the United States Congress. And a couple years after that, I was one of 12 members of the Select Committee on Assassinations, looking into the death of Dr. King. These books over here are all the documents on the committee that was researching the death of Dr. King and John F. Kennedy. So I interviewed James Earl Ray, the assassin, as a young member of Congress. So Dr. King, by accident, has had quite an impact. This just gives you the smallest. It is only those persons that were serving- SM (00:09:57): Walter [inaudible]. Yes. Remember him, and met him briefly in California. Yep. BE (00:10:02): Yep. Chris Dodd. Bob Edgar. So this is a long answer to your short question. I think poverty and King vaccinated me to care about ending the poverty that kills, connecting poverty to war. And it was my father who connected me to the environment. He loved the trees and the land that he worked so hard on. So he paid $13,000 for a house in the suburbs without the ability to have an automobile or car. He worked 37 years at the same desk, testing relays for General Electric. Died at age 56, probably killed by the chemicals he was using in the workplace or the fact that he smoked a lot. He was offered a million dollars for his piece of land to build a shopping center, and he turned them down because the trees on his land were more important and the environment. And he introduced me to the early books in the (19)60s, The Greening of America. Some of the early conversations about the environment. When I decided to run for Congress, I became kind of the environmental candidate. And if the Republicans had run any candidate against me who cared about the environment, or cared about women's issues, I would have lost, because my district was the most Republican district in the nation and I am a Democratic congressman. And I got elected at age 31, as you know. SM (00:11:56): Yep. When you were in that room with, I did not know you were in the room with Dr. King six weeks before he was assassinated, I am- BE (00:12:05): We also marched in Arlington Cemetery that same day together. SM (00:12:11): Wow. He touched your life, obviously, with his words, and obviously, he was a great preacher in his delivery and everything, but I interviewed another person whose husband was in Harvard when Dr. King came, or excuse me, Michigan State, when Dr. King came to speak, and he had said that it was the greatest experience he had ever had in his life listening to him. But I do not know if he is putting me on, but he said there was something about the aura and the atmosphere that he said, "I did not think this guy was going to live long." And that was a commentary from his Michigan State speech when this person was in college there. I do not know if you felt that at all, because he was certainly different in his... he had a lot of enemies. BE (00:13:09): At the time, I was not smart enough to think those thoughts. I was all eyes and ears. Except for the assassination of President Kennedy, I was lulled into thinking we were a peaceful nation, but if you look back on the assassination of Kennedy, King, Bobby Kennedy, and the attempt on Wallace's life, and you go back and look in history in terms of all the attempts on presidents' lives, you realize we are a pretty violent nation. I think there is an author that wrote a book, Violence in America, [inaudible] Demery. It was a very popular book in the (19)70s and talked about Native Americans and all the things that we had done to people itself. It is interesting, we are about the same age, and I think I mentioned to your secretary that my grandfather was a Methodist minister, Peekskill, New York, from (19)54... excuse me, from 1936 to 1954, and he died in (19)56. And then I went to Methodist Church in Cortland, New York growing up as a kid, and Dr. Nason was our minister. And it is interesting you said about social messages. My mom used to tell me a story that we would go to church, I do not remember this, but we would go to church and I used to say to her, "I wish they'd cut all the singing out," because all I cared about was hearing his message. And this is a second-, third-, fourth-grade kid. There were messages that he gave. So you were right on about the social messages. One of the things, when one talks about the (19)50s and (19)60s, one rarely talks about the religious leaders that influenced the Boomers growing up this. So when I look at religion, not just politics, religion itself, I think of Billy Graham, Norman Vincent Peale, Roy Rogers and Dale Evans, who were very religious, Bishop Sheen, who- SM (00:15:25): Happy trails to you. BE (00:15:25): But they were very religious too, and they had Christmas albums and they took in kids. Bishop Sheen was on TV then. And then, of course, Dr. King and Rabbi Heschel and Jesse Jackson, Reverend Schuller, Pat Roberson, these are people that I think influenced Boomers over... founding of the National Council of Churches was founded in 1950, was very much part of the Civil Rights Movement. Brown versus Board of Education. The National Council Churches had, I was General Secretary of the Council, but in 1957, had Dr. King as its keynote speaker. Had a lot of lay people, including there was a guy by the name of Jay Erwin Miller. He was a layperson, and in October, 1967, Esquire Magazine had a cover that says, "The man who ought to be the next President of the United States." He was head of Cummings Engine, which was a big industrial thing. He was a Republican. Also, he was chair of the board at the National Council of Churches. And he was one of the founders of Common Cause. He worked with John Gardner. There were three Republicans who were on the articles of incorporation. One was a guy by the name of Andrew [inaudible], who was head of Time Publishing, one was John Gardner and one was Jay Erwin Miller. SM (00:17:06): Yeah, I had Gardner [inaudible]. BE (00:17:06): You look at some of these pictures, Jay Erwin Miller is with Dr. King, in some of the signing of the Civil Rights Movement issues. And so there's a whole bunch of Republican, mainly, moderate Republican, Eisenhower Republicans, who began to speak up on civil rights, human rights, and people's rights, who were also people of faith. And I think it goes back to winning World War II. I am born in 1943, May 29th, Life or Look Magazine came out that week and had Rosie the Riveter on the cover, the woman who symbolized women working in factories to win the war. But the war is won, and the Congress passes the most important piece of legislation after the war, which was the GI Bill and- SM (00:18:22): (19)48. BE (00:18:28): -all of the blue-collar workers who went to war came back and became the white-collar workers of the (19)50s and (19)60s. Some of them became ministers, some of them became teachers, some of them became lawyers and doctors and other kinds of things. Sprawl started, people started to get wealthy from development of communities and suburbs expanded, people were moving out of the cities. Churches were being built, every few minutes a new church was being dedicated, and churches were packed. It was a sense of victory. We fought evil and we won. And every child will do better than their parents did. And their parents are doing better than their parents did. And the American dream is alive and well, and we had that sense. Brown versus Board of Education happens in (19)54. And some of the hostility of civil rights. And suddenly in the (19)60s, you have got not only the war in Vietnam, you have got the burning in the cities, you have got the tension around civil rights and human rights, you get the Commission on Poverty that comes out with a scathing report, that Johnson began the War on Poverty efforts. And I think the faith leaders had read the Bible thoughtfully enough to discover that God cares about poor people. I think some of the new religious leaders, the conservatives, have read the Bible and somehow did not find out that Jesus cared about poor people and misread all of those stories and somehow come out of the text believing God is a god of wealth, God is a god of prosperity. But the (19)50s and (19)60s, we were vaccinated by faith leaders who challenged government to respect people by race, regardless of creed or color and were willing, in a sense, to fight a civil war over it. And we did not go back to the battlefield with the South in terms of military war, but we did send in troops to make sure that schools were integrated and people who were part of our society became full partners. And Dr. King was kind of the disciple of that movement. SM (00:21:23): It leads into the area with I wanted to address, and that is these periods that Boomers have been alive. Keep in mind that those people born, say, between (19)37 and (19)45, I think are closer to the Boomer, the front-edge Boomers, that were born between (19)46 and (19)56 than those born between, Boomers, that are from (19)57 to say (19)64 because they were graduate students, they inspired, and were right by the side of many of the older Boomers. But when you look at the different periods in America since 1946, and we are talking 64 years here now, it was the first Boomers now coming into Social Security this year. You have already said something very important. When you look at church, and I can take the experience of my life, I love going to church, when every Sunday, all throughout the (19)50s, when in the (19)60s, then my dad moved and we were quite away from the church, but it was that period that I saw church attendants seemed to wane as we started to head into the (19)60s. And then something happened, like you mentioned, in the (19)70s, and I would like your thoughts on this. In the late (19)70s, the religious right seemed to come into power. Jerry Falwell, whether it be Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson. BE (00:22:57): Jim Bakker, Tammy Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart. What happened was that (19)50s and (19)60s were upward mobility, growing of the suburbs, challenge with racism, challenge with poverty, but a society that said, we have got to address these issues if we are going to be great. By the early (19)70s, parents were telling their kids, "Do not go into ministry, do not go into social service, get an education, go to college. Some of us got to college by the skin of our teeth, but you're smarter than we are, so get a degree so you can make money." And the prosperity gospel got caught in. And on the political side, you had the aftermath of Barry Goldwater's loss and the conservative political right. And then you had the emergence of religious conservatives who stayed out of politics mostly. Billy Graham stayed out mostly. And many of the evangelists were talking about personal salvation and not very interested in politics. But you get into the (19)70s, and alongside of the secular effort to make money, you had a whole bunch of what I call charlatan religious leaders who said, "Send us a dollar and we will pray for you. Put your hand on the radio set, and when we finish this prayer, write us a check for a dollar- SM (00:24:54): The Reverend Schuller? BE (00:24:57): -5 dollars, 10 dollars. And this is Jimmy Swaggart and Jimmy Bakker and those guys, the televangelists. They did not want the money as much as they wanted your name and address because they were smart enough to use computers and know that they could amass large amounts of wealth by putting those names and addresses on a computer and keeping track and talking to them by region and by area, and initially, putting a stamp on a newsletter and getting it out to folks, but then getting it into a computer, so it was even cheaper. SM (00:25:38): Like the DNC today. BE (00:25:39): Right. Well, I think in 1980, there was a civil marriage, probably started in (19)76, (19)77, (19)78, a civil marriage between these charlatan religious radical right and the political right that made Ronald Reagan the Christian president and Jimmy Carter an also-ran. Ronald Reagan would not go to church, but he was envisioned as being the guru. He was going to stop Roe versus Wade, which was an early (19)70s Supreme Court decision that all the conservatives hated. And the religious right and the political right out-hustled the left. The left took 50 minutes to answer a question. The left did not deep frame from the justice language. Whereas the religious right, the political right, were willing to sloganeer simple statements. And so the left gets out-hustled, and I think the religious right thought that if they had this civil marriage with the Republicans, that they would turn back Roe versus Wade. That they would be able to prosper in kind of not just the old-time religion, but focused on personal salvation. And the wealthy were blessed by God because they were wealthy, God must be blessing them. I think they forgot the passage that talks about how hard it is for a rich man to enter Heaven, where they said it is easier for a camel than go through the eye of a needle than for rich man to enter Heaven. And they saw Jesus in a tuxedo more than touching the hem of a prostitute, hem of the dress of a prostitute, or touching the leper or hugging a poor person. And so you have got this tension that I think has actually grown into the split in our country. We are divided three ways, radical Christian and political right on one side, moderate to progressive liberals on the other side, and a whole host of people that are in the middle. And the reason I wrote the book, Middle Church, which goes against... the reason I wrote that book was to go after Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and the religious right, but it is middle church, middle synagogue, middle mosque. And my argument in the book is that the religious left failed, and we failed because we would do point-counterpoint with the religious right, we forgot to evangelize the middle. And you have got a whole host of Americans in the middle who are too easily swayed by patriotism and false morality that many on the left have forgotten to use that patriotism and morality language. And that book could have been called Middle America, it is more of a secular political book than a churchy book, but it will give you some idea if you read it, of some of these thoughts. SM (00:29:50): But where would you place... we all know what the Beatles did. They went into, not organized religion, they went off to the Maharishi or whatever. It was fairly common that a lot of people were going off into Zen Buddhism. I interviewed Peter Coyote and he told me, the actor, that if it was not for Zen Buddhism, he would not be alive today. I mean, it's that important for him to relax. He's been doing it for 35 years. And so a lot of people became Zen Buddhist. A lot of people like the Beatles, and not just the Beatles, because they were well known, but other people, got into all these Maharishi, and they came to college campus in the late (19)60s. You had the Moonies that were everywhere. And there was this attitude, and correct me if I am wrong, that a lot of the Boomer kids and a lot of the young adults for some reason went against anything that were position of authority. They were against their political leaders, they were against their religious leaders, they were against politicians, the college administrators. So the inner spirituality became the thing in the late (19)60s, in the (19)70s. Your thoughts on this inner spirituality where you do not need to go to church, it's just that kind of- BE (00:31:14): I will answer that question, but let me challenge something you said. I would not use the phrase "a lot." I would use "some" because I think the majority did what their parents told them to do. Go to college, become something, get a profession. But the (19)60s and (19)70s are marked by a search, a search religiously, a search psychologically, a search for meaning, a search for life. And not only did folks search alternative religions, but they also searched alternative lifestyles, commune movement, and others. And you remember some of this came out of Woodstock, some of it came out of the anti-war movement, the draft was there, and people had to ask themselves, "Is the United States worth dying for? And if not, do I go to Canada? What do I think about 58,000 people being killed in Vietnam and hundreds of thousands being wounded? And what do I think, if I care about integration, about the fact that liberals were disappearing here and there, being killed and lynched and blacks were being attacked," and it was a big struggle for the identity of America. So there is not one issue, it was a small, important cluster. I remember when I got elected to Congress, some of my friends said, "Why would you do that? Why do not you stay on the outside of government and fight the corruption, fight the bad guys who are in government?" And those days, you know, had Watergate and you had a lot of lack of modeling of good behavior. And I think there was that tension in our society. My own personal view is that you need people inside the tent and people outside the tent, people inside government, people outside government. I have got five honorary doctorate degrees, but only four arrests for civil disobedience. If I have any regrets in my life, it is that I have not been arrested enough. SM (00:34:13): Dr. King would be proud of you because Dr. King used to always say that, "If you are not willing to go to jail for your beliefs, what are you out there for?" BE (00:34:20): Right. SM (00:34:21): Not doing violent things, but. BE (00:34:23): My friend Peter Yarrow of Peter, Paul, and Mary sings a song for me once in a while about, have you been to jail for justice? Good words in that song. SM (00:34:33): You are right. Right. One of the things, you well know that when President Kennedy, well, when he was running for president, the issue with the Catholic Church and that religion would influence his decisions. Obviously, that did not happen, but what did that say about the America of 1960, about fearful that the Pope was going to run the United States government, and. The Pope was going to run the United States government, and John Kennedy obviously saw the concern, but he said that is not going to happen with him. BE (00:35:11): Yeah. Well, like John Kennedy, I believe in the separation of church and state but not the separation of people of faith and institutions of government. You want your elected officials to have an active faith statement, but you need to always remember that you are not serving in public office a particular denomination or religious tradition. Henry Waxman, who is Jewish, was elected with me in 1974. I want him to be a faithful member of the Jewish community, but he would never intend to have the Jewish community make the United States a Jewish nation. I think it is true of Muslims who might serve in Congress. I want them to be faithful. I want them to read the Koran, but I do not want to have Sharia law be the law of the land. For conservative Protestants, I want them to be themselves. I do not have any animosity to people who are in the religious right unless that religious right once elected thinks that it can make this a Christian nation. Our founding fathers were very smart to help all of us understand this is a nation that believes in religious pluralism, and we want people of faith and people of no faith to use morals and values that grow out of their tradition, but not to ever allow any individual faith tradition to dominate. In our history, we used to hang people who were Roman Catholics, and we used to torture people who were a different kind of Protestant than we had. I think the founding fathers and mothers said, "Wait, that is not going to make us a very healthy nation, so let us respect everybody's religious tradition." SM (00:37:29): What is interesting is that we all know the founding of this country, and the people that come here are made up of people who left their homelands because of religious persecution in many cases. We all know that America is a xenophobic nation that is afraid of people who are different. It has been the whole history. I mean, the Irish. I was even educating my dad more about some of the things that happened between England and Ireland and the Potato Famine and so forth and the treatments. What amazes me today, I am very concerned about that, and I like your thoughts. Some of the attacks on President Obama, and some people say his close links with the Muslim faith. Some people say he is a Muslim. He says he is a Christian. They will not listen to his word. They have their personal opinions. It shoots me back to what was happening in 1960 about the fear of the Pope. Well, now there is a fear that Islam will take over. I know they use the issue of terrorism, but I see this continuing oftentimes a trend where- BE (00:38:38): Just remember that the kid that blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City was a Roman Catholic, raised in the United States. And if there are terrorists in 60 countries, we do not stop terrorism by bombing capitals. Part of our problem in this country is racism. Part of our problem is fear of the other, and part of our problem is we carry around in our head World War images of what war is about. I think some of the leaders that Obama has, many of the leaders that Bush had were focused on World War II images of the world, and we got to change that view. We need an international police effort on terrorism, but we ought to cut in half our military expenditures. I laugh when I read the newspapers with a tear in my eye when I think about all of the conservatives who say, "We have got to balance the budget, but you cannot cut defense. We have got to balance the budget, but we are going to go to war in Afghanistan and in Iraq without paying for it, without raising taxes." And we got these big deficits. "Oh, those deficits are caused by overspending on healthcare and education and Social Security." That is hogwash. We are in this predicament because we, after 9/11 were manipulated by Cheney, Rumsfeld and Bush on the issue of fear. We went after a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11 called Iraq. We went after it even though the inspectors were there. There was no hint that they actually had nuclear weapons, or nuclear capability. On the one hand, the political right and the religious right want more expenditures on defense, more expenditures for war, but somehow that does not impact on their thinking on deficits. SM (00:40:53): Do you see the link here? You're talking about the fear. Now. The fear in the (19)50s was the fear of the Cold War, the boomer generation when they were younger. The fear of the Cold War, of the potential- BE (00:41:11): The Cold War fear started this before the Boomers were elected. The fear of the Cold War grew out of separation of Germany right after World War II. The building of... Russia was a world-class military but a third-class country without the ability to really have an economy that worked. There were all these myths about the former Soviet Union, and I think people who lived through World War II saw it in terms of the exchange of nuclear weapons. I think by the time the boomers got here, and they were very small and children at the time, that fear not only got intensified with the East West struggles, but it also pointed out that even when you tore down the Berlin Wall, you had to find another enemy to be fearful of. So, I think Rumsfeld and Cheney were able to use 9/11 as a way of tapping into the fear that people have. My complaint about Americans is we are dumb. We do not learn from history. SM (00:42:34): We do not read history. BE (00:42:35): We do not read history. And we do not realize that we have got to send our young people to get an international education and not just a domestic education. SM (00:42:47): Global? Yeah. That is been the tough. We have to prepare students for the global world. I remember Henry Cisneros at a conference, way back in the early (19)90s. He was speaking from a Mayor I think of San Antonio. This beautiful college administrator stood up and said, "Well, what is America be going to be like if it is the majority are minorities?" It was shocking to hear it from her, but she was asking a question. I will never forget what he said. He said, "You should not be fearing the future. You should be preparing for the future, because you are going to have bosses who are Latino. You are going to have bosses who are Asian-American, from India, you name it. So we have to prepare students for the world they are going to face because it is a global world." You raised some good points. It is interesting also that McCarthyism, which was trying to label people who spoke up or were politically active as Communists. I see sometimes today for people who may support Muslims in America, they are sometimes paying a price, too. We did a conference, Islam in America, at Westchester University. It was my last coup before we left. We packed the place the entire day, and we brought in the spiritual leader from Detroit who had written a book, and we brought in two authors from New York and we did a tremendous program. It was nine straight programs. We had 400 for every session, and we got criticized for it. In fact, some of our professors went out to speak at other universities and they had people in the audience trying to, "Do you remember when you were at that conference?" That kind of stuff. BE (00:44:46): It is the same thing that is happening to Obama by calling him a Socialist and some of the Tea Party folks making him a Fascist. They do not know what a Fascist is. My own concern is that he is not socialist enough. SM (00:45:05): One of the things too, that I think it is important, when you think of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and you think of the Boomer generation, and particularly the activists of that period who were anti-war, they were involved in all the movements. Many of them were the New Left, so they attacked liberals as well as conservatives because LBJ was a liberal, and he was running the war. Nixon, even though he was conservative- BE (00:45:33): They defeated Humphrey because Humphrey was not liberal enough. SM (00:45:37): Right. How we doing time wise? BE (00:45:41): I have got about 15 minutes and then I have got to close up. Sorry. I talk too much. SM (00:45:46): That is okay. When did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, and when did it end? BE (00:45:56): It is a silly question. SM (00:45:56): It is a silly question? BE (00:45:56): I am pulling your leg. SM (00:45:56): Okay. BE (00:46:03): It began 1960. It ended 1969. I think the (19)60s, this is going to sound strange to you, but since you are talking about the boomers, I do not think the (19)60s had as much impact on the boomer generation than the 1970s had on them. I think the 1960s had more of an impact on my generation, those of use that were born in the late (19)30s and early (19)40s and came to adulthood in the (19)60s. And those of us... I was... In 1961, entered college (19)65, graduated from college, (19)68, graduated from graduate school June of (19)68, was full-time minister in city of Philadelphia, riding with the Philadelphia police clergy unit. I think that, starting with the assassination of President Kennedy, where we all were taught about guns in America and war and violence, plus the civil rights tension and the dogs and the fire hoses and that kind of thing, I think that had much more of a psychological impact on my generation. I think that the boomers coming were teenagers in the (19)60s, some of them. Early boomers. Some were tainted by the drug culture and LSD and that kind of thing. But most of them who got into adulthood in (19)71, (19)72, (19)73, where they were tainted, they were tainted by Watergate. They were tainted by prosperity gospel. They were tainted by some of the televangelist movements. They were tainted by money being God as opposed to God being God. And I think it led to the resurgence. They brought us Ronald Reagan, they brought us George Bush. They modified a little bit with Bill Clinton, but I think of President George Bush Jr. was not as impacted by my generation as he was by the... SM (00:49:03): 1960s. BE (00:49:05): Well, more of the 1970s. I think the late (19)60s, (19)70s part of that. So to answer your question, for me the 1960s have not ended. SM (00:49:21): You are not the only person who said that. BE (00:49:24): Okay. But it is diminishing in that it is smaller and smaller group of us who were impacted by the (19)60s. And I think the next generation is going to be modified by resource depletion. Dr. Jonas Salk spoke at a group of us in Congress before he died. He invented the polio vaccine. And he had a great lecture about what he called epoch A and epoch B. Epoch A for him was those that came after World War II. They are going to raise their kids, they are going to have more money, everything is going to get better. And epoch A was symbolized by consumption, quantity of life, competition. And he said, we need to evolve into epoch B, where we replace competition with cooperation, quantity of life, with quality of life, where the whole limited lifestyle was his view of the future compared to the past. Someone asked him, "Dr. Salk, how do you get from Epoch A to epoch B?" And he said, "Well, in every change in human history, there have been intellectual mutants." And he said, "What we need are teachers and ministers and prophetic leaders who help to bridge the old and the new view." And I think that is at the heart of our current political trauma. We have got people who are lamenting the demise of epoch A, and resisting moving to more stewardship of fragile resources, and are denying things like global warming, denying that we are running out of fossil fuel oil denying that we are running out of natural resources. So I think there is, kind of put it this way, I think there is a new civil war going on that is going on without guns and weapons, but it is going on for the heart and soul of Americans. And in a sense, the heart and soul of the world. And I think those of us who are progressive and liberal need to figure out how we do a better job of being the intellectual mutants that we need for this time. SM (00:52:22): The generation gap was certainly well documented. If you remember, there was a Life magazine cover with a young man with the glasses on, and he had the father pointing a finger at him, and the son was pointing a finger back. And in 1980, because you are a very... You care about Vietnam vets, that is where I first met you for the first time when you did a symposium on Agent Orange in Philadelphia. And this book was called The Lost Generation. And it was Senator Webb, Phil Caputo... BE (00:53:07): Ford Foundation found out that I had been a leader of working on Agent Orange back in the late (19)70s and early (19)80s, and forcing our government to care for our veterans that they sent me to gather a religious allegation and go to Vietnam and see the impact 35 years after the war on the children and grandchildren of the Vietnamese who are being exposed to Asian Orange. SM (00:53:35): Can I have a copy of this? BE (00:53:36): That is yours. SM (00:53:37): Because that is how I first met you. You probably do not remember, this is even before you came to Western. You were at a symposium, I think it was down near Temple. It was full of Vietnam vets, and you were talking about Agent Orange. And I was very impressed, and I know I am a friend of Harry Gafney. I do not know if you know Harry. And Dan Fraley and Steve Silver and that whole group, Dwight Edwards. And that is how... That was the beginning of I getting to know a lot of the Vietnam vets. And what I am trying to get at you here... BE (00:54:07): Do you need more than one copy? SM (00:54:12): If I could have a couple of these, I had appreciated it. I think I am going to turn this... It was a book that had a symposium documented, and the symposium was with Phil Caputo, Jim Webb, I think it was Bobby Mueller and James Fallows. And one other person, it was unbelievable. BE (00:54:42): Bobby Mueller is working with us on this. SM (00:54:45): Well, Bobby was at my retirement. I asked Bobby to come. He is one of the six people that was at my retirement. And what came up in this program is that I think they were talking about the generation gap and Jim Webb made a comment. The comment was, the generation gap is not between parents. Well, it is between parents and sons and daughters, but the real generation campus is within the generation between those who went to Vietnam and those who did not. And Bobby will remember this. It was a great interaction. And it was documented in the Wounded Generation book. Your thoughts on that commentary, whether, and this gets into my real big question here is, as a nation, I ask a question oftentimes, have we healed from the tremendous divisions that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between those who supported the war and against, between those who are black and white and all the other issues? And I took students to Washington to meet Senator Musky in 1995, and we asked this question to him, and I will give you his response in a minute. And I know Senator Nelson said it affected the body politic. But people do not want walk around Washington saying, I did not heal from the Vietnam War. Your thoughts on whether we as a nation have a problem with healing within this generation that grew after World War II, particularly those who served in Vietnam, 3 million plus, and those who may have been the anti-war people. BE (00:56:25): Well, before I answer your question, let me just say, I was the first anti-war activist on the Veterans Affairs Committee. And had I not been put on the Veterans Affairs Committee, I would have lost my elections. And at first, I did not want to be on the Veterans Affairs Committee, but I learned that even though you oppose the war, you can love the warrior. And even though you oppose the war, you can work on things like readjustment counseling centers, Agent Orange, post-traumatic stress disorder, et cetera. I would go to your question about the healing. I would only modify the comment about the generation gap being between those who went to war and those who did not. I think it is more complicated than that. I think it is between those who went to war and those who did not. Those who supported integration and those who did not. Those who understood the need for African Americans to be part of the quality of life in America and have resources. Expanded to those who believe that you cannot build walls to keep out Mexicans or people crossing your border, because the world has gotten complicated. I think there is a division between those who live by the God of money and those that live by the commitment to social justice and caring for people. So it is too simplistic to say it is just as though every... Because every veteran who served in Vietnam was not a hero. SM (00:58:24): So you know that from me, Eli, right? BE (00:58:27): Yeah. Many were. But there were good people and bad people in the war, and there were good people and bad people in the anti-war movement. And as human beings, what we have done to each other has been to pour salt on the wounds of race, the wounds of violence. And I think there is a division, a generation gap between those who think you can solve the world's problems by military action, and those who think you need to solve the problems with something like three cups of tea. The book that gentleman wrote is my thinking about how we should have handled Afghanistan. We are handling it with weapons and war, and every time we inadvertently kill a civilian, we have made a family of terrorists. And that is where the gap is. And I think you see it every day on nightly news. The gap is between Fox News and MSNBC. The gap is between Colbert and Rush Limbaugh. Glenn Beck is the hero of the anti-movement. And I would say both the left and the right, but mostly the right love and thrive on not allowing the nation to heal. And you see it internally in the Senate today where McConnell says, we are going to be the... We are going to be no until we can defeat Obama. And we do not want Obama to succeed. And one of the reasons I am president of Common Cause is I think John Gardner was right, that everybody had special interest in Washington except the average, ordinary people. And hostility of the generation gap is an internal gap between those who, once elected, serve the public interest as opposed to the special interest. And money is a corrosive influence in our whole system. So it is too simplistic to say it is those who went to war and those who did not, because those of us who did not go into the war, many of us worked very hard to provide the warrior healing through Regis counseling centers, the new GI Bill for the all-volunteer military, and to make sure that whether you are for or against a war, you are always for healing the soldier who goes to war. Some of us work to try to stop war. SM (01:01:42): Do you believe that the people who were the anti-war people, many of them are college students and well-known anti-war people, that they consider themselves veterans of the war too? BE (01:01:59): They are. We just gave an award, a lifetime Achievement Award to Daniel Ellsberg. SM (01:02:06): I am interviewing him. I am interviewing him a week from Monday. BE (01:02:10): He just received the John Gardner Lifetime Achievement Award in California. And he was introduced by Pete McCloskey, a marine. Former congressman. Former Democrat now... Former Republican now Democrat. But Pete McCloskey introduced him. The three of us were on the same stage together. There is two former congressmen and Daniel Ellsberg. I think of Dr. King as a hero. I think of William Sloane Coffin as a hero. I think of Kate McCloskey as a hero. I think of Daniel Ellsberg as a hero. SM (01:02:52): Daniel and Philip. BE (01:02:53): And Philip. I think of... SM (01:02:57): Malcolm Boyd. BE (01:02:58): Malcolm Boyd was a hero. Yeah. You do not have to go to war to be a hero. I think that people have given their lives for justice, peace, they are heroes too. My picture, and I have got to leave... My picture of a real hero, is the Chinese guy with two shopping bags standing in front of the tank. SM (01:03:28): We do not know whatever happened to him. BE (01:03:30): He is my hero. SM (01:03:38): Wow. BE (01:03:38): I guess I respect those who are willing to stand in front of the tanks. SM (01:03:42): Do you have any final thoughts on the boomer generation itself with respect to... A lot of the boomers when they were young, felt that they were... Last question. They were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society, that they were going to hopefully end war, bring peace, end racism, sexism, really kind of cure everything. Kind of be the panacea for a lot of the issues that were facing us in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. Do you feel that because of the fact that we still have a war and that we still have a lot of the, we still have racism, although we have come a long way, we still, as David Garrow said to me, the historian, I said, the accomplishments for gay and lesbian Americans has been unbelievable in terms of one of the results of the (19)60s. And of course, you got the environmental movement of Gaylord Nelson. BE (01:04:42): Let me answer your question because I got to go. I think that the every generation makes its contribution. When I grew up, everybody I knew smoked. No one smokes anymore. When I grew up, women were making 30 cents on the dollar that men were making. That gap is closing, and there are more rights and privileges according to women. When I grew up, there was segregation. There is still separation of the races, but much more tolerance, much more sharing, much more riding in the same bus together, in all the seats, any seat being used. So in terms of racism, there have been good movements. Environmental movement has been good. Much more quality of life issues have been improved over time. So there is good things. And one other good thing we have not talked about, which I want to think about in your book, I think the Boomer generation is going to teach us how to retire better than previous generations. They are going to want exercise rooms and theater and all of the amenities to be close to retirement. But hopefully they will also teach us that there is life after retirement. That 65 to 95-year-old need a job. They may not need a... SM (01:06:22): I am going back to work in a year. BE (01:06:24): They may not need as much of a salary, but they will need a stipend and benefits. We need a whole Peace Corps for senior adults. We need to find out how the 65 to 95-year-old can make a contribution to our society. So there is lots of positives. I think the negative is that there has been an increase in greed. Hold on second. See what happens when you talk about greed, whole thing goes up. SM (01:06:50): Let me just turn this over here. This is the slow one. There we go. BE (01:07:08): I think there has been an increase in greed, an increase in selfishness and cause of the religious right's personal salvation push, There is too much everyone for themselves. And I think one of the negative legacies that this generation is leaving us, and part of my generation is responsible for it too, is that nobody wants to pay taxes. And if you think about it, all the states are now moving to casinos to fund their schools and their elderly programs because nobody wants to pay taxes, even though we pay less in taxes than we did 30 years ago as a percentage of our income. And I think that is a very damaging legacy to leave. The other damaging legacy that has been left by those who are about to retire is that too many politicians have been caught with their fingers in the cookie jar. And too few young people see public service as an honorable profession. And my tears this week over Charlie Rangle was more about how many young blacks will avoid going into public service because they saw an 80-year-old black politician tarnished by his own lifestyle. And much of Charlie Rangel's problem was not corruption, it was sloppiness and arrogance and all of those kinds of things. SM (01:08:48): And how about the Vietnam veteran Cunningham, who was revered for his Vietnam service, now he is in jail. BE (01:08:54): Well, he took almost $5 million from military folk. So the handful of boomers who modeled bad behavior impacted more than a handful of others and other generations to have soiled views of the future. I have got to go. SM (01:09:23): Let me take two more pictures and then... I am going to take one definitely with only the backdrop. So this one is the one you are going to give to your wife. So if you stand right in front of it, and I will make sure the only thing I have in the back. Okay. Right there. So the only thing I am going to have in the backdrop is going to be that. BE (01:09:42): I think you should turn it on. SM (01:09:42): Yeah. And maybe one more. BE (01:09:42): That camera still have film in it? SM (01:09:53): Yes, it does. BE (01:09:54): Oh man, you are old fashioned. SM (01:09:56): Yep. Well, I have a digital, but this camera is good. There you go. Very good. Do you think when Janrus wrote his book... SM (01:10:03): Very good. Do you think when Jan Scruggs wrote his book, To Heal a Nation, that the wall has done some sort of a job in healing the nation? He not only talked about healing Vietnam vets and their families, but he talked about the nation itself. BE (01:10:17): It has helped, but remember Ronald Reagan said, "Tear down the wall." Maybe we need to tear down walls, but we need memorials. So I think that more as a memorial. Memorials are healing. SM (01:10:36): Here, if you can sign that to me, and I am glad you are in charge. I have John Edgar... Oh, not John Edgar, John Gardner's books. I have. I think I have all of them. Remember I read, No Easy Victories and then I had his book that I remember. I kind of encourage students to read, which is his book- BE (01:10:54): What do you go by in terms- SM (01:10:56): Stephen. BE (01:10:57): Stephen? SM (01:10:57): Yep. BE (01:10:57): P-H? SM (01:11:12): Yep. P-H-E-N. The interview itself includes questions that have been asked to all people, but there are also some specific questions and that have been geared toward your life as well. BE (01:11:21): Okay. SM (01:11:22): How did you become who you are? Could you describe your upbringing, your high school and college years, and maybe some of the role models and or historic figures you read about that inspired you? BE (01:11:35): Well, I am glad I gave you a copy of my book so you can find out all the details because the book is more of a biography of how I have done what I have done. As you know, I have been a United Methodist minister, I have been a congressman, I have been a faculty member at Swarthmore College. I ran the finance area for Senator Paul Simon of Illinois when he ran for president. I was head of the Committee for National Security under Paul Warnke who negotiated the SALT II agreement. I spent 10 years as president of a graduate school. I spent seven and a half years as head of the National Council of Churches, and now I have been three years as president of Common Cause. All of my vocational life in all those different professions have centered around my mantra, which I have kind of rephrased in the last couple of years. But it is to address fear, fundamentalism, and Fox News with a commitment to peace, poverty, and planet Earth. My wife of 46 years, who I have known for 52 years will tell you I only have one speech and a thousand illustrations focused on ending the poverty that kills healing the earth and working on peace and non-violence issues. Now you asked the question, how did I get started? I grew up in a blue collar family in a white collar community. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia while we were in a lower economic bracket than our neighbors and friends. My father never owned an automobile, never drove a car. I taught my mother how to drive at age, when she was 48 years old. We did everything on buses and trolleys between Philadelphia, Upper Darby, Chester, media, communities around Philadelphia. Yeah, we were, my brother and I, my older brother were sent to church so that my mother and father could sleep in on Sunday mornings. And I went to Sunday school and church services in the Methodist Church. And in those days, which was in the 1950s, there were an awful lot of progressive ministers who were linking gospel messages to civil rights, human rights, people's rights. When I became 15, 16, I went to a church camp and a couple ministers that I discovered, some ministers that taught me that ministers do not have to be boring, that they can be committed to social justice. I also took a tour of some poverty areas in Philadelphia and was surprised by my reaction to seeing poor people. In June of 1968, the Methodist Church sent me to 11 countries in Europe, not (19)68. In 1961, they sent me to 11 countries, including Italy, Germany, Austria, France. But I also got in behind the Iron Curtain in Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1961. And one of the most powerful experiences was in an orphanage that we visited in Naples, Italy. You had to travel by bus through a terrible slum, seeing the worst poverty you could see. And the bus went through a large gated building, and inside were a couple of hundred children who were orphans, all clean, all dressed, all cared for by faith related folks, all singing and joyful. And so the contrast between the abject poverty on the outside of the building and the care that was given on the inside had an impact on me. I had decided pretty early on to be a minister and thought that my whole life was going to be in the ministry. I wanted to be an urban minister. And in fact, that is the direction I went. A couple other incidents shaped my thinking. One was at age 19, I became pastor of my own church called the Gilbert and United Methodist Church in Gilbert and Pennsylvania. This is June of 1962. I am all of 19 had never been to a funeral, had never... I was given permission to do communion and baptisms and weddings, and most of it was to pay my way through college. After they had given churches to ordained elders in the Methodist Church and retired ministers and seminary students, they had churches left over. And so as a young, beginning my second year in college, I was pastor of a church. And the interesting thing was the church in Gilbert, the whole town was owned by the Gilbert and Coal company. All of the parishioners were related to the coal mine. They owned only the inside of their houses. The coal company owned all the land underneath their houses, and it was a strip mining area. The men were all dying in their (19)50s of black lung disease. And even though the people were very poor, they were very loving and caring and adopted a young preacher, taught me a lot. So those kinds of experience began to move me. I would say another defining experience, which I do describe in the book, is in February of 1968, I was invited by William Sloan Coffin, who was at that time the chaplain at Yale, later to become a minister at Riverside Church in New York. But Bill Coffin invited a group of people concerned about the Vietnam War to a meeting here in Washington at the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church. And I boarded a bus in northern New Jersey where I was at seminary and traveled to Washington for the first time. And as we got to the door of the church, the bus came to the curb. The radical religious rite of that day was a guy by the name of Carl McIntire, and he was out of Cape May, New Jersey. He was the Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Dobson of that day. And he had organized a protest carrying signs that said, kill a commie for Christ's sake, and trying to get us not to cross his picket line. And as coming out of a blue-collar union family, I broke my father's dictum, never to cross a picket line and went inside the church, went up into the balcony of the church and listened to speaker after speaker, connect these with poverty and war. And in doing that, I began to recalibrate my own thinking. And the keynote speaker was a young guy, 39 years of age by the name of Dr. Martin Luther King. SM (01:19:22): Oh my God. BE (01:19:22): This is five weeks before he was assassinated. And he inspired me. I think of myself as a disciple of Dr. King, read his material. Less than 10 years later by accident, I got elected to the United States Congress. And a couple of years after that, I was one of 12 members of the Select Committee on assassinations looking into the death of Dr. King. These books over here are all the documents on the committee that was researching the death of Dr. King and John F. Kennedy. So I interviewed James Earl Ray the assassin as a young member of Congress. So... SM (01:20:13): Wow. BE (01:20:14): Dr. King by accident has had quite an impact. Let us just give you the smallest, it is only those persons that we are serving- SM (01:20:27): Walter Cronkite. BE (01:20:28): Yes. Remember him and Sam briefly in California. SM (01:20:31): Yep. Yep. Chris Dodd. BE (01:20:34): Yep. SM (01:20:37): Wow. BE (01:20:39): So this is a long answer to your short question. I think poverty and King vaccinated me to care about ending the poverty that kills, connecting poverty to war. And it was my father who connected me to the environment. He loved the trees and the land that he worked so hard on. Someone... He paid $13,000 for a house in the suburbs without the ability to have an automobile or a car. He worked 37 years at the same desk testing relays for General Electric, died at age 56 with probably killed by the chemicals he was using in the workplace or the fact that he smoked a lot. He was offered million dollars for his piece of land to build a shopping center. And he turned them down because the trees on his land, the environment were important and environment and introduced me to the early books in the (19)60s, The Greening of America. SM (01:21:48): Oh yeah. BE (01:21:49): Some of the early conversations about the environment. When I decided to run for Congress, I became kind of the environmental candidate. If the Republicans had run any candidate against me who cared about the environment or cared about women's issues, I would have lost because my district was the most Republican district in the nation. I had a Democratic congressman. SM (01:22:16): Yep. BE (01:22:17): And I got elected at age 31 as you know. SM (01:22:19): Yep. When you were in that room with, I did not know you were in the room with Dr. King six weeks before he was assassinated, I am- BE (01:22:28): We also marched in Arlington Cemetery that same day together. SM (01:22:31): Wow. Did... He touched your life obviously with his words and obvious he was a great preacher and his delivery and everything. But I interviewed another person whose husband was in Harvard when Dr. King came, or excuse me, Michigan State, when Dr. King came to speak. And he had said that it was the greatest experience he had ever had in his life listening to him. But I do not know if he is putting me on, but he said there was something about the aura and the atmosphere that he said, I did not think this guy was going to live long. And that was a commentary that from his Michigan State speech, when this person was at college there, I do not know if you felt bad at all that because he was certainly different and he had a lot of enemies. BE (01:23:27): At the time. I was not smart enough to think those thoughts. I was all eyes and ears except for the assassination of President Kennedy. I was lulled into thinking we were a peaceful nation. But if you look back on the assassination of Kennedy, King, Bobby Kennedy, and the attempt on Lawless' life, and you go back and look in history in terms of all the attempts on president's lives, you realize we're a pretty violent nation. SM (01:24:06): I think there is an author that wrote a book, Violence in America. Olga Demery was a very popular book in the (19)70s and talked about Native Americans and all the things that we had done to people in the south, you... It is interesting, we are about the same age. And I think I mentioned to your secretary that my grandfather was a Methodist minister Peekskill, New York from 54, excuse me, from 1936 to 1954. And he died in 56. And then I had, we went to Methodist Church in Courtland, New York growing up as a kid. And Dr. Nathan was our minister. And it is interesting you said about social messages. My mom used to tell me a story that we would go to church, I do not remember this, but we would go to church and I used to say to her, I wish they would cut out the singing out. Cause all I cared about was hearing his message. And this is like a second, third, fourth grade kid. There were messages that he gave. So you were right on about the social messages. One of the things when... The one talks about the (19)50s and (19)60s, one rarely talks about the religious leaders that influenced the boomers growing up. So when I look at religion, not just politics, religion itself, I think of Billy Graham, Norman Vincent Peale, Roy Rogers and Dale Evans, who were very religious, Bishop Sheen that- BE (01:25:33): Happy trails to you... SM (01:25:33): But they were very religious too. And they had Christmas albums and they took in kids. Bishop Sheen was on TV then. And then as we, and of course Dr. King and Rabbi Heschel and Jesse Jackson, Reverend Schuh and Pat Robertson, these are people that I think influenced Boomers over the- BE (01:25:49): Founding of the National Council of Churches was founded in 1950, was very much a part of the Civil Rights Movement. Brown versus Board of Education, the National Council of Churches had, I was General Secretary of that Council, but at 1957, had Dr. King as its keynote speaker, had a lot of late people, including a guy by the name of J. Irwin Miller. He was a late person. And in October 1967, Esquire Magazine had a cover. It says, 'The man who ought to be the next President of the United States.' SM (01:26:28): Wow. BE (01:26:29): He was head of Cummins Engine in, which was a big industrial thing. He was a Republican. He was also chair of the board at the National Council of Churches. And he was one of the founders of Common Cause. He worked with John Gardner. SM (01:26:49): John Gardner. Yeah. BE (01:26:50): There were three Republicans who were on the articles of incorporation. One was a guy by the name of Andrew High School who was head of Time publishing. One was John Gardner and one was J. Irwin Miller. And you... I had Gardner look at some of these pictures. J. Irwin Miller is with Dr. King in some of the signing of the Civil Rights Movement issues. And so there's a whole bunch of Republican, mainly madder Republicans, Eisenhower Republicans who began to speak up on civil rights, human rights, and people's rights who were also people of faith. And I think it goes back to winning World War II. You get, I am born in 1943, May 29th Life or Look Magazine came out that week and had Rosie the Riveter on the cover, woman who symbolized women working in factories to win the war. But the war is won and the Congress passes the most important piece of legislation. After the war, which was the GI Bill- SM (01:28:20): (19)48. BE (01:28:25): All of the blue-collar workers who went to war came back and became the white-collar workers of the (19)50s and (19)60s. Some of them became ministers, some of them became teachers, some of them became lawyers and doctors and other kinds of things. Sprawl started, people started to get wealthy from development of communities and suburbs expanded and people were moving out of the cities. Churches were being built. Every few minutes a new church was being dedicated and churches were packed. The sense of victory, we fought evil and we won. And every child will do better than their parents did. And their parents are doing better than their parents did. And the American dream is alive and well and had that sense. Brown versus Board of education happens in (19)54 and some of the hostility of civil rights. And suddenly in the (19)60s, you have got not only the war in Vietnam, you have got the burning of the cities, you have got the tension around civil rights and human rights. You have got the Commission on Poverty that comes out with a scathing report on the, that Johnson began the war on poverty efforts. And I think the faith leaders had read the Bible, thoughtfully enough to discover that God cares about poor people. I think some of the new religious leaders, the conservatives read the Bible and somehow did not find out that Jesus cared about poor people and misread all of those stories and somehow come out of the text believing God is the God of wealth. God is the God of prosperity. But the (19)50s and (19)60s, we were vaccinated by faith leaders who challenged government to respect people by race regardless of creed or color. And were willing in a sense, to fight a civil war over it. And then we did not go back to the battlefield with the South in terms of military war, but we did send in troops to make sure that schools were integrated and people who were part of our society became full partners. And Dr. King was kind of the disciple of that movement. SM (01:31:07): It leads into the area where the ones you address, and that is these periods of boomers have been alive. Keep in mind that those people born, say between (19)37 and (19)45, I think are closer to the boomer, the front edge boomers that were born between (19)46 and (19)56. Then those born between boomers that are from (19)57 to say (19)64 because they were graduate students, they inspired and were right by the side of many of the older boomers. But when you look at the different periods in America since 1946, and we are talking 64 years here now in the First Boomers now coming into Social Security this year, you talk very, you have already said something very important when you look at church, I can take the experience of my life. I love going to church when every Sunday, all throughout the (19)50s, when in the (19)60s, then my dad moved and we were quite away from the church. But it was that period that I saw church attendants seemed to wane as we started to head into the (19)60s. And then something happened, like you mentioned in the (19)70s, and I like your thoughts on this. In the late (19)70s, the religious rights seemed to come into power. Jerry Falwell, whether it be Oral Roberts, they were very Pat Robertson. BE (01:32:36): Jim Bakker, Tammy Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart. What happened was that (19)50s and (19)60s were upward mobility, growing of the suburbs, challenged with racism, challenged with poverty. But a society that said, we have got to address these issues if we're going to be great. By the early (19)70s, parents were telling their kid, do not go into ministry, do not go into social service, get an education, go to college. Some of us got to college by the skin of our teeth, but you're smarter than we are. So get a degree so you can make money. And the prosperity gospel got caught in. And on the political side, you had the aftermath of Barry Goldwater's loss and the conservative political, and then you had the emergence of religious conservatives who stayed out of politics mostly. And Billy Graham stayed out mostly. And many of the evangelists were talking about personal salvation and not very interested in politics. But you get into the (19)70s and alongside of the secular effort to make money, you had a whole bunch of what I call charlatan religious leaders who said, send us a dollar and we will pray for you. Put your hand on the radio set. And when we finish this prayer, write us a check for $1, $5- SM (01:34:25): Reverend Schuller or- BE (01:34:28): $10. And this is Jimmy and Swaggart and Jimmy Bakker and those guys, the televangelists, they did not want the money as much as they wanted your name and address because they were smart enough to use computers and know that they could amass large amounts of wealth by putting those names and addresses on a computer and keeping track and talking to them by region and by area. And initially putting a stamp on it, on a newsletter and getting it out to folks, but then getting it into a computer. So it was even cheaper. SM (01:35:06): It is like the DNC today, right? BE (01:35:08): Well, I think in 1980, there was a civil marriage between, probably started in (19)60, in (19)76, (19)77, (19)78, a civil marriage between these charlatans religious radical and the political right that made Ronald Reagan, the Christian president and Jimmy Carter and also ran Ronald Reagan would not go to church. But yeah, he was envisioned as being the guru. He was going to stop Roe versus Wade, which was an early (19)70s Supreme Court decision is all the conservative state and the religious right and the political right out-hustled the left. The left took 50 minutes to answer a question. The left did not deep frame some of the justice language. Whereas the religious right, the political right were willing to sloganeer simple savers, and so the left gets out hustled. And I think the religious right thought that if they had this civil marriage with the Republicans, that they would turn back Roe versus Wade. That they would be able to prosper in kind of not just the old time religion, but focused on personal salvation. And the wealthy were blessed by God because they were wealthy. God must be blessing them. I think they forgot the passage that talks about how hard it is for a rich man to enter heaven, where they said, it is easier for a camel than go through the eye of a needle and for a rich man to enter heaven. And they saw Jesus in a tuxedo more than touching the hem of a prostitute, hem of the dress of a prostitute or touching the leper or hugging a poor person. And so you have got this tension that I think has actually grown into the split in our country. We are divided three ways, a radical Christian and political right on one side, moderate to progressive liberals on the other side, and a whole host of people that are in the middle. And the reason I wrote the book, Middle Church, which goes against, goes against now that is- SM (01:37:54): Oh, Okay. Yep. BE (01:37:55): The reason I wrote that book was to go after Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson and the religious right. But it is middle church, middle synagogue, middle mosque. And my argument in the book is that the religious left failed, and we failed because we would do calpoint, point, counterpoint with the religious right. We forgot to evangelize the middle. And you have got a whole host of Americans in the middle who are too easily swayed by patriotism and false morality that many on the left have forgotten to use that patriotism and morality language. And that book could have been called Middle America. It is more of a secular political book then a churchy book. But it will give you some idea if you read it, some of these thoughts. SM (01:39:01): But where would you place in, we all know what the Beatles did. They went into any now organized religion. They went off to them, Maharishi or whatever. It was fairly common that a lot of people are going off into Zen Buddhism. I interviewed Peter Coyote and he told me, the actor, that if it was not for Zen Buddhism, he would not be alive today. I mean, it is that important for him to relax. He has been doing it for 35 years. And so a lot of people became Zen Buddhist. A lot of people like the Beatles, and not just the Beatles, because they were well known, but other people got into all these maharishis and they came to college campuses in the late (19)60s. You had the Moonies that were everywhere. And there was this attitude, and correct me if I am wrong, that a lot of the boomer kids and a lot of young adults for some reason went against anything that was in a, were position of authority. They were against their political leaders. They were against their religious leaders, they were against politicians, the college administrators. So the inner-inner spirituality became the thing in the late (19)60s, in the (19)70s. Your thoughts on this inner spirituality where you do not need to go to church. It is just that kind of- BE (01:40:21): I will answer that question, but let me challenge something you said. I would not use the phrase a lot. I would use some because I think the majority did what their parents told them to do. Go to college, become something, get a profession. But the (19)60s and (19)70s are marked by a search, a search religiously, a search psychologically, a search for meaning, a search for life. And not only did folks search alternative religions, but they also searched alternative lifestyles, commune movement, and others. And you remember some of this came out of Woodstock, some of it came out of the anti-war movement. Some of it, the draft was there. And people had to ask themselves, is the United States worth dying for? SM (01:41:30): Yeah. BE (01:41:31): And if not, do I go to Canada? What do I think about 58,000 people being killed in Vietnam and hundreds of thousands being wounded, and what do I think if I care about integration, about the fact that liberals were disappearing here and there being killed and lynched and blacks were being attacked. And it was a big struggle for the identity of America. So there is not one issue that it was a small important cluster. I remember when I got elected to Congress, some of my friends said, why would you do that? Why do not you stay on the outside of government and fight the corruption, fight the bad guys who are in government in those days, you know, had Watergate and you had a lot of lack of modeling of good behavior. And I think there was that tension in our society. My own personal view is that you need people inside the tent and people outside the tent, people inside government, people outside government. I have got five honorary doctorate degrees, but only four arrests for civil disobedience. If I have any regrets in my life, it is that I have not been arrested enough. And- SM (01:43:09): Dr. King be proud is because Dr. King used to always say that, if you're not willing to go to jail for your belief, what are you out there for? BE (01:43:16): Right. SM (01:43:17): Not doing violent things. BE (01:43:18): But my friend Peter Yarrow of Peter, Paul, and Mary sings a song for me once in a while about, "Have You Been To Jail For Justice." Good words in that song. SM (01:43:28): You are right. Right. What other things we... Well know that when President Kennedy, well when he was running for president, the issue with the Catholic Church and that religion would influence his decisions. Obviously, that did not happen. But what did that say about the America of 1960, about fearful that the Pope was going to run the United States of government? And John Kennedy obviously saw that the concern, but he said that is not going to happen with him. BE (01:44:05): Yeah. Well, like John Kennedy, I believe in the separation of church and state, but not the separation of people of faith and institutions of government. You want your elected officials to have an active faith statement, but you need to always remember that you are not serving in public office a particular denomination or religious tradition. Henry Waxman, whose Jewish was elected with me in 1974, I want him to be a faithful member of the Jewish community, but he would never intend to have the Jewish community make the United States a Jewish nation. I think it is true of Muslims who might serve in Congress. I want them to be faithful. I want them to read the Quran, but I do not want to have Sharia law lead the law of land. SM (01:45:02): Right. BE (01:45:02): I do not want to have Sharia law be the law of the land. For conservative Protestants, I want them to be themselves. I do not have any animosity to people who are in the religious right, unless that religious right once elected thinks that it can make this a Christian nation. Our founding fathers were very smart to help all of us understand this is a nation that believes in religious pluralism. We want people of faith and people of no faith to use morals and values that grow out of their tradition, but not to ever allow any individual faith tradition to dominate. In our history, we used to hang people who were Roman Catholics. We used to torture people who were a different kind of Protestant than we had. I think the founding fathers and mothers said, "Hey, that is not going to make us a very healthy nation, so let us respect everybody's religious tradition." What is interesting is that you do not know the founding of this country and the people that come here are made up of people who left their homelands because of religious persecution in many cases. We all know that America is a xenophobic nation, that is afraid of people who are different, in the whole history. I mean, the Irish. I was even educating my dad more about some of the things that happened between England and Ireland and the Potato Famine and so forth and the treatment. What amazes me today, I am very concerned about it, and I would like your thoughts on some of the attacks on President Obama, and some people say his close links with the Muslim faith. Some people say he is a Muslim. He says he is a Christian. They will not listen to his word. They have their personal opinions. It kind of shoots me back to what happened in 1960, about the fear of the Pope. Well, then there is a fear that Islam will take over. I know they use the issue of terrorism, but I see this continuing, oftentimes a trend where- SM (01:47:17): Just remember that- BE (01:47:19): The kid that blew up the federal building in Oklahoma City was a Roman Catholic raised in the United States. And if there are terrorists in 60 countries, we do not stop terrorism by bombing capitals. Part of our problem in this country is racism. Part of our problem is fear of the other. And part of our problem is we carry around in our heads, world war images of what war is about. And I think some of the leaders that Obama has, many of the leaders that Bush had were focused on World War II images of the world, and we got to change that view. We need an international police effort on terrorism, but we ought to cut in half our military expenditures. I laugh when I read the newspapers with a tear in my eye when I think about all of the conservatives who say, "We have got to balance the budget," but you cannot cut defense. We have got to balance the budget, but we're going to go to war in Afghanistan and in Iraq without paying for it, without raising taxes, and we got these big deficits. All those deficits are caused by over-spending on healthcare and education and social security. Hogwash. We are in this predicament because we, after 9/11, were manipulated by Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Bush on the issue of fear, we went after a nation that had nothing to do with 9/11 called Iraq. We went after it even though the inspectors were there. There was no hint that they actually had nuclear weapons or nuclear capability. And on the one hand, the political right and the religious right wanted more expenditures on defense, more expenditures for war, but somehow that does not impact on their thinking on deficits. SM (01:49:24): Do you see the link here? You are talking about the fear now. The fear in the (19)50s was the fear of the Cold War from the boomer generation. They were [inaudible] the fear of the Cold War, the potential- BE (01:49:41): Cold War fear started before the boomers were elected. It was the fear grew of the cult war grew out of the separation of Germany right after World War II and the building of... Russia was a world-class military, but a third-class country without the ability to really have an economy that worked. And there were all these myths about the former Soviet Union, and I think people who lived through World War II saw in terms of the exchange of nuclear weapons. And I think by the time the boomers got here and they were very small and children at the time, that fear not only got intensified with the East-West struggle, but it also pointed out that even when you tore down the Berlin Wall, you had to find another enemy to be fearful of. And so I think Rumsfeld and Cheney were able to use 9/11 as a way of tapping into the fear that people have. And my complaint about Americans is we are dumb. We do not learn from history and- SM (01:51:01): We do not read history. BE (01:51:01): We do not read history, and we do not realize that we have got to send our young people to get an international education and not just a domestic education. SM (01:51:10): Global. Yeah. That has been the talk. We have to prepare students for the global world. I remember Henry Cisneros at a conference, golly way back in the early (19)90s. He was speaking for a mayor, I think, of San Antonio. And this beautiful college administrator stood up and said, "Well, what is America going to be like if it is the majority are minorities?" And it was shocking to hear it from her, but she was asking a question and he said... I will never forget what he said. He said, "You should not be fearing the future. You should be preparing for the future because you are going to have bosses who are Latino. You are going to have bosses who are Asian American and from India, you name it. And so we have to prepare students for the world they are going to face because it is a global world." And you raised some good points. It is interesting also that McCarthyism, which was trying to label people who spoke up or were politically active as communists. I see sometimes today for people who may support Muslims in America are sometimes paying a price too for... We did a conference, Islam in America at Westchester University. It was my last coup probably before we left. We packed the place the entire day and we brought in the spiritual leader from Detroit who had written a book, and we brought in two authors from New York, and we did a tremendous program, and it was nine straight program. We had a 400 for every session, and we got criticized for it. In fact, some of our professors went out to speak at other universities and they had people in the audience trying to, "Do you remember when you were at that conference," and all that kind of stuff. BE (01:53:04): Well, it is the same thing that is happening to Obama by calling him a socialist, and some of the Tea Party folks making him a fascist. They do not know what a fascist is. And my own concern is that he is not socialist enough. SM (01:53:19): Well, one of the things too that I think is important. When you think of the (19)60s and the (19)70s, and you think of the boomer generation, and particularly the activists of that period who were anti- war. They were down in all the movement. Many of them were the new left. And so they attacked liberals as well as conservatives because LBJ was a liberal when he was running the war. Nixon was the... Even though he was conservative- BE (01:53:47): They defeated Humphrey. SM (01:53:49): Right. BE (01:53:49): Because Humphrey was not liberal enough. SM (01:53:51): Right. How are we doing time-wise? BE (01:53:54): I have about 15 minutes and then I have got to close up. Sorry. I talk too much. SM (01:53:59): That is okay. When did the (19)60s begin, in your opinion, and when did it end? BE (01:54:03): It is a silly question. SM (01:54:12): Silly question? BE (01:54:14): I am just pulling your leg. It began in 1960 and it ended in 1969. SM (01:54:18): Oh, yeah. BE (01:54:27): I think the (19)60s... This is going to sound strange to you, but since you are talking about the boomers, I do not think the (19)60s had as much impact on the boomer generation than the 1970s had on them. I think the 1960s had more of an impact on my generation, those of us who were born in the late (19)30s and early (19)40s and who came to adulthood in the (19)60s. And those of us, I was... In 1961, entered college in (19)65, graduated from college in (19)68, and graduated from graduate school. June of (19)68 was a full-time minister in the city of Philadelphia, writing on the Philadelphia police clergy unit. I think that starting with the assassination of President Kennedy, where we all were taught about guns in America and war and violence plus the civil rights tension and the dogs and the fire hoses and that kind of thing. I think that had much more of a psychological impact on my generation. I think that the bloomers coming were like teenagers in the (19)60s, some of them early boomers. Some were tainted by the drug culture and LSD and that kind of thing. But most of them who got into adulthood in (19)71, (19)72, and (19)73, where they were tainted, they were tainted by Watergate. They were tainted by the prosperity gospel. They were tainted by some of the televangelist movement. They were tainted by money being God as opposed to God being God. And I think it led to the resurgence. They brought us Ronald Reagan. They brought us George Bush. They modified a little bit with Bill Clinton, but I think of President George Bush Jr. was not as impacted by my generation as he was by the... SM (01:57:05): 1960s. BE (01:57:08): Well, more of the 1970s. SM (01:57:08): (19)70s, yeah. BE (01:57:12): I think the late (19)60s and (19)70s were part of that. So to answer your question, for me, the 1960s had not ended. SM (01:57:22): You are not the only person that said that. BE (01:57:27): Okay. But it is diminishing in that it is a smaller and smaller group of us who were impacted by the (19)60s and think the next generation is going to be modified by resource depletion. Dr. Jonas Salk spoke at a group of us in Congress before he died. He invented the polio vaccine, and he had a great lecture about what he called Epoch A and Epoch B. Epoch A for him was those that came after World War II. They are going to raise their kids. They are going to have more money and everything is going to get better. Epoch A was symbolized by consumption, quantity of life, and competition. And he said, "We need to evolve into Epoch B, where we replace competition with cooperation, quantity of life with quality of life," where the whole limited lifestyle was his view of the future compared to the past. Someone asked him, "Dr. Salk, how do you get from Epoch A to Epoch B?" And he said, "Well, in every change in human history, there have been intellectual mutants." And he said, "Well, we need our teachers and ministers and prophetic leaders who helped to bridge the old and the new view." And I think that is what is at the heart of our current political trauma. We have people who are lamenting the demise of Epoch A and resisting moving to more stewardship of fragile resources and are denying things like global warming, denying that we are running out of fossil fuel oil, denying that we are running out of natural resources. So I think there is kind of a... Put it this way, I think there is a new civil war going on. It is going on without guns and weapons, but it is going on for the heart and soul of Americans and in a sense, the heart and soul of the world. I think those of us who are progressive and liberal need to figure out how we do a better job of being the intellectual mutants that we need for this time. SM (02:00:13): The generation gap was certainly well-documented. You remember there was a Life magazine cover with a young man with the glasses on, and he had the father pointing a finger at him, and the son was pointing a finger back. And in 1980, because you are a very... You care about Vietnam vets. That is where I first met you for the first time when you did a symposium on Agent Orange in Philadelphia. And this book was called The Lost Generation, and it was Senator Webb, Phil Caputo... Wow. BE (02:00:55): Ford Foundation found out that I had been a leader of working on Agent Orange back in the late (19)70s and early (19)80s, and forcing our government to care for our veterans that they sent me to gather a religious delegation and go to Vietnam and see the impact 35 years after the war on the children and grandchildren of the Vietnamese who are being exposed to Agent Orange. So, I- SM (02:01:21): Can I have a copy of this? BE (02:01:22): That is yours. SM (02:01:23): Because see, that is how I first met you. I am trying to remember, this is even before you came to Westchester. You were at a symposium. I think it was down near Temple. It was full of Vietnam vets and you were talking about Agent Orange. And I was very impressed, and I know I am a friend of Harry Gaffney. I do not know if you know Harry and Dan Fraley and Steve Silver and that whole group, Dwight Edwards. And that was the beginning of my getting to know a lot of the Vietnam vets and what I am trying to get at here- BE (02:01:52): You need more than one copy? SM (02:01:53): Yes. If I could have a couple of these, I would appreciate it. I think I am going to turn this one over. The question I have is, there was a book called The Longest... Let me get this here. Sorry. It was a book that had a symposium documented, and the symposium was with Phil Caputo, Jim Webb, I think it was Bobby Mueller, James Fallows, and one other person. It was unbelievable. BE (02:02:28): Bobby Mueller is working with us on this. SM (02:02:32): Yeah. Well, Bobby was at my retirement. I asked Bobby to come. He was one of the six people that was at my retirement. And what came up in this program is that I think they were talking about the generation gap, and Jim Webb made a comment. The comment was, "The generation gap is not between parents. Well, it is between parents and sons and daughters, but the real generation gap is within the generation between those who went to Vietnam and those who did not." And Bobby will remember this. It was a great interaction. And it's documented in the Wounded Generation book. Your thoughts on that commentary, whether... And this gets into my real big question here. As a nation, I ask a question oftentimes, have we healed from one of the tremendous divisions that took place in the (19)60s and (19)70s between those who supported the war? And again, between those who are Black and White and all the other issues? And I took students to Washington to meet Senator Musky in 1995, and we asked this question to him, and I will give you his response in a minute. And I know Senator Nelson said it affected the body politic, but people do not want walk around Washington saying, "I did not heal from the Vietnam War." Your thoughts on whether we as a nation have a problem with healing within this generation, the group after World War II, particularly those who serve in Vietnam - 3 million plus - and those who may have in the anti-war people? BE (02:04:06): Well, before I answer your question, let me just say, I was the first anti-war activist on the Veterans Affairs Committee, and had I not been put on the Veterans Affairs Committee, I would have lost my elections. And at first, I did not want to be on the Veterans Affairs Committee, but I learned that even though you oppose the war, you can love the warrior. And even though you oppose the war, you can work on things like readjustment counseling centers, Agent Orange, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, et cetera. I would go to your question about healing. I would only modify the comment about the generation gap being between those who went to war and those who did not. I think it is more complicated than that. I think it is between those who went to war and those who did not, those who supported integration and those who did not, those who understood the need for African Americans to be part of a quality of life in America and have resources expanded to those who believe that you cannot build walls to keep out Mexicans or people crossing your border because the world has gotten complicated. I think there is a division between those who live by the god of money and those that live by the commitment to social justice and caring for people. So it's too simplistic to say it is just as though every... Because every veteran who served in Vietnam was not a hero. We know that from Eli, right? SM (02:06:01): Yeah. BE (02:06:01): Many were, but there were good people and bad people in the war, and there were good people and bad people in the anti-war movement. And as human beings, what we have done to each other has been to pour salt on the wounds of race, the wounds of violence. And I think there is a division, a generation gap between those who think you can solve the world's problems by military action. And those who think you need to solve the problems with something like three cups of tea. The book that gentleman wrote is my thinking about how we should have handled Afghanistan. We were handling it with weapons and war, and every time we inadvertently kill a civilian, we have made a family of terrorists. And that is where the gap is. I think you see it every day on Nightly News. The gap is between Fox News and MSNBC. The gap is between Cobert and Rush Limbaugh. Glenn Beck is the hero of the anti-movement. And I would say both the left and the right, but mostly the right love and thrive on not allowing the nation to heal. And you see it internally in the Senate today where McConnell says, "We are going to be no until we can defeat Obama, and we do not want Obama to succeed." And one of the reasons I am President of Common Cause is I think John Gardner was right, that everybody had a special interest in Washington except average ordinary people. And the hostility of the generation gap is that internal gap between those who once elected, serve the public interest as opposed to the special interest. And money is a corrosive influence in our whole system. So it is too simplistic to say it is those who went to war and those who did not because those of us who did not go into the war, many of us worked very hard to provide the warrior healing through Regis counseling centers, the new GI Bill for the all-volunteer military, and to make sure that whether you are for or against a warrior, you are always for healing the soldier who goes to war, and some of us work to try to stop wars. SM (02:09:05): Do you believe that the people who were the anti-war people, many of them are college students and well-known people, that they consider themselves veterans of the war too? BE (02:09:21): They are. SM (02:09:21): And we- BE (02:09:22): We just gave an award, Lifetime Achievement Award to Daniel Ellsberg. SM (02:09:28): I am interviewing him. I mean, a week from Monday. BE (02:09:31): He just received the John Gardner Lifetime Achievement Award in California. And he was introduced by Pete McCloskey, a Marine, former congressman, former Republican, now Democrat. But Pete McCloskey introduced him. But the three of us were on the same stage together. There are two former congressmen and Daniel Elizabeth. I think of Dr. King as a hero. I think of William Sloane Coffin as a hero. I think of Pete McCloskey as a hero. I think of Daniel Ellsberg as a hero. SM (02:10:11): Daniel and Philip. BE (02:10:12): And Philip. I think of... SM (02:10:15): Malcolm Boyd. BE (02:10:16): Malcolm Boyd was a hero. And you do not have to go to war to be a hero. I think that people have given their lives for justice and peace. They are heroes too. My picture... And I have got to leave. My picture of a real hero is the Chinese guy with two shopping bags standing in front of the tank. SM (02:10:44): You do not know whatever happened to him. BE (02:10:46): He is my hero. SM (02:10:48): Wow. BE (02:10:53): I guess I respect those who are willing to stand in front of the tanks. SM (02:10:56): Do you have any final thoughts on the boomer generation itself with respect to... A lot of the boomers when they were young felt that they were going to... This will be my last question. They were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society, that they were going to hopefully end war to bring peace, end racism, sexism, and really kind of cure everything. Kind of be the panacea for a lot of the issues that were facing us in the (19)60s and the (19)70s. Do you feel that because of the fact that we still have of war and that we still have a lot of the... We still have racism, although we have come a long way. We still, as David Garrow said to me, the historian said the accomplishments for gay and lesbian Americans have been unbelievable in terms of one of the results of the (19)60s. And of course, you got the environmental movement, Gaylor Nelson, and... BE (02:11:54): Let me ask you a question because I got to go. SM (02:11:56): Yep. BE (02:11:59): I think that every generation makes its contribution. When I grew up, everybody I knew smoked. No one smokes anymore. When I grew up, women were making 30 cents on the dollar that men were making. That gap is closing, and there are more rights and privileges according to women. When I grew up, there was segregation. There is still a separation of the races, but much more tolerance, much more sharing, much more riding in the same bus together at all the seats, any seat being used. So in terms of racism, there have been good movements. Environmental movement has been good. Much more quality of life issues have been improved over time. So there is good things. And one other good thing we have not talked about, which you might want to think about in your book. I think the boomer generation is going to teach us how to retire better than previous generations. They are going to want exercise rooms and theater and all of the amenities to be close to retirement, but hopefully, they will also teach us that there is life after retirement. That 65 to 95-year-olds need a job. They may not need a- SM (02:13:30): Yeah, I am going back to work in a year. BE (02:13:31): They may not need as much of a salary, but they will need a stipend and benefits. We need a whole Peace Corps for senior adults. We need to find out how the 65 to 95-year-olds can make a contribution to our society. So there are lots of positives. I think the negative is that there has been an increase in greed and an increase in selfishness. And because of the religious rights of personal salvation push, there is too much everyone for themselves. And I think one of the negative legacies that this generation is leaving us, and part of my generation is responsible for it too, is that nobody wants to pay taxes. And if you think about it, all the states are now moving to casinos to fund their schools and their elderly programs because nobody wants to pay taxes, even though we pay less in taxes than we did 30 years ago as a percentage of our income. And I think that is a very damaging legacy to leave. The other damaging legacy that has been left by those who are about to retire is that too many politicians have been caught with their fingers in the cookie jar and too few young people see public service as an honorable profession. And my tears this week over Charlie Wrangle was more about how many young Blacks will avoid going into public service because they saw an 80-year-old Black politician tarnished by his own lifestyle and much of Charlie Wrangel's problem was not corruption. It was sloppiness and arrogance and all of those kinds of things. SM (02:15:37): And how about the Vietnam veteran Cunningham, who was revered for his Vietnam service? Now, he is in jail. BE (02:15:43): Well, he took almost $5 million from military folk. So the handful of boomers who modeled bad behavior impacted more than a handful of others and other generations who have soiled views of the future. I got to go. SM (02:16:10): Let me take two more pictures and then I am going to take one definitely with only the background. So this one is the one you are going to give to your wife. So if you stand right in front of it, and I will make sure the only thing I have in the back... Okay. Right there. So the only thing I am going to have in the backdrop is [inaudible] do that. BE (02:16:29): [inaudible]. SM (02:16:29): Yeah. Three, six. One more. BE (02:16:29): That camera still have film in it? SM (02:16:39): Yes, it does. BE (02:16:39): Oh, man. You are old-fashioned. SM (02:16:41): Yep. Well, I have a vision over this camera is good. BE (02:16:44): There you go. SM (02:16:45): Very good. Do you think when Jan Scruggs wrote his book To Heal A Nation that the wall has done some sort of a job in healing the nation? He not only talked about healing Vietnam vets and their families, but he talked about the nation itself. BE (02:17:02): It helped. But remember, Ronald Reagan said tear down the wall. Maybe we need to tear down walls, but we need memorials. So I think of it more as a memorial. Memorials are healing. SM (02:17:20): If you can sign that to me. I am glad you're in charge. I had John Edgar... Oh, not John here. John Gardner's books. I think I have all of them. I read No Easy Victories and then I have his book that... I remember I kind of encouraged students to read, which is his book. BE (02:17:37): What do you go by in terms- SM (02:17:38): Steven. BE (02:17:38): Steven. SM (02:17:39): Yeah. (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Robert William Edgar Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Edgar, Robert, 1943-2013 ; McKiernan, Stephen Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/wav Subject The topic of the resource Legislators—United States--Pennsylvania; Democratic Party (Pa.); Edgar, Robert, 1943-2013--Interviews Description An account of the resource Robert William Edgar (1943-2013) was a businessman, administrator, and politician. Edgar was a member of the Democratic Party and congressman in Pennsylvania for six terms. He received his Bachelor's degree from Lycoming College in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, and a Master of Divinity degree from the Theological School of Drew University in Madison, New Jersey. Edgar died from a heart attack after running on the treadmill at his home. Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2010-12-03 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.45a ; McKiernan.Oral.10.2016.45b Date Modified Date on which the resource was changed. 2017-03-14 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. McKiernan Interviews Extent The size or duration of the resource. 137:41 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/93e7aa7d394fb0e4ce350b15702ca658.jpg b6234075c07c400433de9de49d28f375 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e0bd33786045a106b76598dea704e375.mp3 a9b40e22115ec638b5765af19670b9c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Chomsky, Noam Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:30:04 Biographical Text <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;Dr. Noam Chomsky is a theoretical linguist, historian, political activist, social critic, author, and scholar. Dr. Chomsky is one of the founders of the field of cognitive science and one of the leading figures in analytic philosophy. He is especially famous with his analyses of the pernicious influence of economic elites on U.S. domestic and foreign policy as well as intellectual culture.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:771,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;4&quot;:[null,2,16777215],&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0}">Dr. Noam Chomsky is a theoretical linguist, historian, political activist, social critic, author, and scholar. Dr. Chomsky is one of the founders of the field of cognitive science and one of the leading figures in analytic philosophy. He is especially famous with his analyses of the pernicious influence of economic elites on U.S. domestic and foreign policy as well as intellectual culture.</span> Keywords <span data-sheets-value="{&quot;1&quot;:2,&quot;2&quot;:&quot;General Yuan; Photographs; Study Abroad; College student in the nineteen sixties; Nineteen forties; North Vietnam; Rise from the South.&quot;}" data-sheets-userformat="{&quot;2&quot;:769,&quot;3&quot;:{&quot;1&quot;:0},&quot;11&quot;:4,&quot;12&quot;:0}">General Yuan; Photographs; Study Abroad; College student in the nineteen sixties; Nineteen forties; North Vietnam; Rise from the South.</span> Subject LCSH Linguists; Historians; Authors, American--20th century; Scholars; Political activists--United States; Chomsky, Noam--Interviews Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Noam Chomsky Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: REV Date of interview: ND --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM (00:01): Great. What are your thoughts on the American youth of the (19)60s and the (19)70s with respect to the following? Were they unique and different than other students you have taught or been around? And that is the students before (19)64 and after 1981. Secondly, do you feel these students know their history better? And did they challenge their professors more? Did they feel more empowered? And what were their strengths and weaknesses? And it's based on your experiences, because I know you cannot talk about 74 million people. NC (00:39): Well, the ninth generation of consciousness, so ninth decade. So, it was kind of like the (19)30s. I was a child then, but the (19)30s and the (19)40s, it was pretty lively, student activism. And the (19)50s, things quieted down, became... It was kind of like a reasonably passive decade. I mean, partly repression, partly other things. The (19)60s, things picked up again, but not... Took some time. I mean, so for example, right here at MIT, it was very quiet until about 1967 or (19)68. Faculty was quite active and anti-war and other activities, but not the student body. And then it was different times in different places. Berkeley was a little earlier, Wisconsin was a little earlier, but by the late (19)60s, there was quite a rise in student activism, interest and all sorts of issues and challenges, thinking about new things, raising questions about the nature of the university, their lives, war, gender relations. So, all kinds of things sort of blew up. And then that just extended in the following years. There was so much student activism that elite circles became extremely concerned about what they called the failures of the institutions responsible for the indoctrination of the young. That is their phrase. That is liberal elite, I am talking about, not right wing, no trilateral, the administration liberals, those people, they are worried about the institution's responsible for the indoctrination of the young. They are not doing their job. And many measures were taken to try to pacify the population, in particular young people, ranging from the drug war to high tuition, to trap people in debt to many other things. But I do not really think it worked very well. I mean, I think generally activism has sustained, maybe even increased. So, lots of things developed in the (19)80s and the (19)90s that did not exist in the (19)60s. For example, the solidarity movements, third-world solidarity movements, they really date from the 1980s. The global justice movement, which is substantial, that is 1990s or even this century. And it is very scattered. There is not anything unified, but it is quite substantial, actually. You can see it when the Iraq War came along. The Iraq War is I think the first war in the history of the imperial powers that was massively protested before it was officially launched. In the case of Vietnam, it took five or six years before any [inaudible] developed. SM (04:05): When you look at the free speech movement on the Berkeley campus in (19)64, (19)65, I love Mario Savio, saddened that he did not live long. But what happened there and the challenges that were taking place within the university, obviously a lot of the students, and we are only talking a percentage now, a lot of the critics, and I would like your thoughts on this. A lot of the critics of the boomer generation of 74 million will always say that only five to 15 percent were involved in any kind of an activism. So, they use that. So, see, 85 to 90 percent were doing nothing. They were living their lives like everybody else. And they used that as a negative, as opposed to a positive. Well, how do you respond to that? NC (04:53): How many people were involved in the civil rights movement? That was a major movement. Changed the country. How many are involved in the feminist movement? Changed the country enormously, country's totally different from what it was 50 years ago. I mean, it takes MIT for... this university, because we happen to be sitting here, but it generalizes over the country, in fact, over much of the world. And if you came here... When I got here in the mid-(19)50s and you walk down the halls, what you saw was white males, well-dressed, deferential, no table out anywhere organizing for something, very passive, doing the work. Take a look down the halls now, you can do it. Half women, third minorities, all kind of protesting this and that, get organized and this and that and the other thing. Those are made informally dressed, which is not just, it is more than symbolic. That means change relationships to change from deference and obedience to interaction, much closer interaction. These are major changes. And how many people were involved? If you count the number of people actively involved, it was probably pretty small. We completely changed the country, civilized the country in a huge way. So, what does it mean? I mean take, say, the American Revolution, how many people were involved? Estimates are maybe a third of the population, and actually a third would probably supporting the rebels. A third were supporting British. A third wanted them all to go away. Something roughly like that. I mean, that is what happens. Take, say, resistance to the Nazis in Europe. How many people are involved with the partisans? Minuscule. In Northern, I mean, in Southern Europe were a huge number, but Italy, Greece. But in France for example, very small numbers. Most people are kind of living their lives. Paris is a pretty decent place to live. SM (07:10): It is almost like if you ever hear a student say, "Well, I am only one person." Well, Dr. King used to always say, "It can start with you." An idea starts with someone, and it spreads. And Dr. King was always a believer that it was about we, not me, and that every person in his congregation or people that were at his presentations, he knew could be just like him. It is about that kind of... NC (07:41): I mean, the civil rights movement is an interesting example that really took off with young people, snake workers sitting in at lunch counters, freedom riders and so on. And it created a wave of enthusiasm, in which King could become a national figure. If it had not been for that, he would have been talking in his church and he would have been the first to say that. SM (08:11): Well, another critics of Boomer generation, if you read and you hear about it a lot today, is- NC (08:16): I do not understand why that is a critic. I mean, it's a criticism of the American Revolution, small percentage of population period. SM (08:23): In (19)94, I believe Newt Gingrich when he came into power made some comments about the (19)60s and he is a Boomer himself. And if you watch television shows today, like Huckabee or some of the other people on Fox, but I do not use them as the perfect examples, but there have been people over time that criticized this generation that grew up in the (19)60s and early (19)70s as the reason why the breakup in the American society, the breakup of the society, which was the divorce rate went on the increase, the lack of respect for authority. The... NC (08:56): That is right. But that is part of the civilizing of the society. SM (08:58): Yeah. NC (08:58): I mean the divorce rate went up. Is it better to have domestic abuse and unhappy marriages? I mean, is it good or bad that the divorce rate went up? I mean, I happen to be married for 60 years, so we are not part. But I mean, the fact that the divorce rate went up is not either good or bad. A traditional marriage with domestic abuse, presentness, patriarchal families, extreme unhappiness. Is that a good thing? But does not mean much. Say the abortion rate went up. Is that better than unwanted pregnancies? This is part of liberation. Part of people liberating themselves is that there's turmoil. That is why the revolutionary generation in the United States cause turmoil. That is why a large part of the population lined up with the loyalists and in fact, fled the country, fled in terror because the rebels they regarded as terrorists were taking over. SM (10:05): Do you think that the attitude that even people my age now feel as they are now getting social security for the first time, a feeling of uniqueness that we were different than any other generation in American history, that we were going to be the change agents just for the betterment of society. We are going to end war, racism, sexism, homophobia, the whole works. NC (10:28): There was a substantial sector of activist engagement and independent thought and concern about human issues in the (19)60s. I cannot give it exact numbers, but there was a substantial, and it did change the society, civilized. So, it is a much more civilized society than it was 50 years ago. A lot of things that were considered perfectly normal 50 years ago would be intolerable today. Unthinkable. SM (11:00): The society that we live in today, which is the divisive as it takes place. Nobody's listening to anybody, "I know better than you know," and "You're the problem and I am not," that kind of an attitude, is that a shoot off? NC (11:14): That is propaganda. I mean, was it any different in the (19)50s? I mean, is it better if people are passive and say, "Okay, I listen to authority." SM (11:23): It is not. NC (11:25): I mean, you just cannot. These cliches that are tossed around, first of all, nobody knows whether they have any basis in reality. And if they do, are they positive or negative? I suppose people do not listen to authority. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? You want to have a totalitarian state, it's a bad thing. If you want to have a democratic society, it is a good thing. SM (11:49): Do you think... This is something that I started out by asking Senator Nelson of all people, a conversation over dinner, and then I used it as one of my questions throughout all my interviews over the last couple years, and actually something I worked on with students who even added to it. And that is that, do you feel that this generation or this group of people born after 1946, between 46 and 64, as they age, as they get closer and closer to passing on that they have an issue with healing, do you think that there's an issue in this country that we have not healed since all of the divisions that were taking place in the (19)60s and (19)70s, divisions over the war, divisions, over all the other issues that came about at that time? Is it important? NC (12:42): The divisions were very good things. Let us take the (19)60s, take the war. Kennedy launched the war in 1962. In 1962, he sent the US Air Force to start bombing South Vietnam. He authorized napalm, started chemical warfare to destroy crops and ground cover. He initiated programs which to drive the rural population into what amounted to concentration camps. Ultimately millions of them to separate them from the gorillas who the United States knew they were supporting. And it was total silence, apathy. You could not get three people together in a room to talk about it. Was that a good thing? I mean, would we think that is a good thing if say Russia had been doing it? No, it was a terrible thing. It was apathy, obedience, lack of concern enabled the United States to practically destroy South Vietnam. We practically destroyed the country before protests began. Big serious protest began around 1967. By that time... read Bernard Fall. SM (13:52): I have, yes. NC (13:52): Okay. You remember what he wrote in his last reflections on a war? He was the most respected military historian and Vietnam specialist, the one guy, McNamara and others respected. He said before he died, that in combat, that in (19)67, that he doubted whether Vietnam as a cultural and historic entity could survive the onslaught of the most violent, savage military machine ever launched against an area that size. Well, he was a hawk, but he cared about the Vietnam enemies. And that is what he was saying at the point when protests began, really took off. So, what was right? The silence and apathy that allowed that to happen, as Gingrich wanted. Or the protests that said, "No, we cannot go around destroying countries," which Gingrich, of course, hated. Supporters of state power, subservient supporters of state power of course want everybody to be quiet and obedient. SM (14:54): In your opinion, when did the (19)60s begin? NC (14:58): When did the (19)60s begin? SM (14:59): And when did it end? NC (15:02): Depends what issue you pick. If you pick Vietnam, you can trace it pretty clearly. So, I mean, I was giving talks about Vietnam (19)64, (19)65 to four people in church. If we wanted to have a meeting on it at MIT, we would have to put together 10 topics and get Vietnam in there and maybe we could get 20 people to show up. In 1965, my wife, we had two little girls, seven and four I think at the time, and she took them to a women's demonstration in Concord, Mass. Concord is the center of American pacifism, you know, go back, it is transcendental center. So, they went to a women's demonstration in Concord, which was just standing quietly in a square holding signs. They were attacked, tomatoes, tin cans and so on, driven out. And we had our first public demonstration against the war in Boston in October 1965. That is three years after Kennedy attacked the country. But that time was already half destroyed. We dared to have a public demonstration on the Boston Common. It was violently broken up largely by students. The only reason I was supposed to be a speaker, but nobody could speak. Saved from being to shreds by a couple hundred state police. Take a look at the Boston Globe the next day, the liberal newspaper. It was praising the counter demonstrators and denouncing those who dared to stand up and say, "Maybe we should not bomb North Vietnam." That is October (19)65. Take a look at Congress, Senator Mansfield, who later pretended to be at Dove, which is a total lie. It was denouncing the demonstrators for their terrible behavior, for daring to stand up against the state and so on. I mean, that was October (19)65. It was a good discipline totalitarian-style culture. Couple years later it did erupt, thankfully, and you can pretty well time it. Like I say, it was in Wisconsin. It was a little bit earlier and there were small SDS demonstrations, but it really took off in about (19)67. And that was the time when Bernard Fall was describing what I said, much too late. And in fact, there has been a massive effort since to suppress what happened, deny what happened. It was so successful that by 1977, Carter was asked at a press conference, "Do we owe the Vietnamese reparation any debt for what we did to them?" His answer was, "We owe them no debt because the destruction was mutual." That is 1977. I mean, if somebody said that in Russia about Afghanistan, we would call it revival of Nazism. And by the time you get to Ronald Reagan, it was a noble cause. You get to George Bush number one, and he said, "Well, we can never forgive the Vietnamese for what they did to us, but we will maybe relax some of the constraints on them and allow them into the world if they face the one moral issue remaining from the war. Namely devoting themselves to finding the bones of pilots who they shot down maliciously." As if they were flying over central Iowa. Well, that is the elite culture and the media and so on. There has been a massive attempt to reject and deny what happened. And what happened is what Bernard Fall described. But try to find it somewhere. Try to find it in the textbook. I try to find it in the press, try to find it in Congress, even in scholarships that is way out the fringe. If fact you take a look at the elite culture, there's never anything more than, "Well, it was a mistake." Say Anthony Lewis in the New York Times way out at the extremist, at the extreme of the media when the war ended in (19)75, his retrospective was, "We entered with blundering efforts to do good," which is kind of like a totalogy if the state does it, it's good. So, we entered with blundering efforts to do good. But by 1969 it was clear that it was a disaster too costly to us. You could have read that in the Nazi general staff after Stalin threat, that is called criticism here. But among the general population that is not the view. And they did become more civilized, although elite sectors did not, the media did not. And for people like Cambridge, of course it is a catastrophe, you are supposed to obey. You are supposed to be quiet and obey the rulers. SM (20:06): But they Beats were pretty important too on this, were not they in terms of they influenced some- NC (20:13): They did. SM (20:13): Yeah. Because when you think about Ginsburg and Kerouac, Cassidy and that group- NC (20:17): And that goes back to the (19)50s. SM (20:17): They were a challenge to authority. NC (20:20): Yeah, it was a challenge, which was part of the background for what happened in the (19)60s. So sure, it was there, the counterculture was there. And those who want to reimpose discipline and ensure that there is no functioning democracy, and that people are obedient and passive, what they focus on is the fringe of craziness in the (19)60s, which was a fringe of craziness. You focus on that. And yet, so you know, scream about the bra burning, but not feminism. Okay, that is a way to try to reimpose discipline, obedience. But we do not have to live in a totalitarian culture just cause the elite sectors wanted. SM (21:03): We know that from history that SDS was a real, to me, it was a great organization. Students from Democratic Society, participatory democracy. And I just interviewed Mark Rudd recently and some of Kent State at the 40th Remembrance, and he admits the mistakes that were made that really affect him when we destroyed SDS. And that hurts him even more. The history of SDS and then they only think about the weatherman. And Dr. King talked about- NC (21:36): Weatherman and PL. SM (21:37): Yeah. NC (21:39): By (19)68 they self-destroyed. SM (21:40): Right. NC (21:40): They split into Weathermen and PL. Yes. And I remember that, in fact. I do not know if Mark Rudd remembers, but I was very critical of what he was doing in Columbia in 1965. In fact, was actually invited by his parents to come to their house so they could dress me down for criticizing what their wonderful son was doing. He may not remember. SM (22:05): The violence aspect is probably the negative part because to me, and I would like your thoughts on this, when we are not only talking about the Weathermen, now we are talking about in the American Indian movement where Alcatraz was a very, I think it was a very valid effort, but Wounded Knee turned into violence. You had the Black Panthers, and of course Bobby Seals says, "Oh, we were not in a violent group. We just had... Somebody else has guns. We have to have guns." So, the concept of the Black Panthers was kind of scary. The guns at Cornell University in (19)69 was certainly scary. NC (22:44): But let us take the violence in the Black Panthers. There was violence in the Black Panthers. Two Black Panthers were murdered. I mean, there was a major campaign by the national political police, FBI, to destroy the Panthers by violence. And it led as far as Gestapo-style assassination. I mean, in December 1969, the Chicago police was set up by the FBI, raided a Black Panther apartment and murdered one of their, Fred Hampton, the major organizer in bed in a 4:00 AM raid-raid. Also marked. That is Gestapo-style assassination at the hands of the state. Yeah, that was violence. Is that what people are talking about? SM (23:35): No, they are talking about the other end. NC (23:36): Yeah, they are talking about a student holding a gun. Not about the national political police, murdering Black Panther organizer. Yeah. So, a lot to talk about reality and fiction, but it's fiction that is favored by the Gingrich's. SM (23:55): I would be curious too, your thoughts on Black power because of the fact that Dr. King was a non-violent protest, Bayard Rustin, who was from Westchester, went to the national tribute on Bayard a couple years back. Bayard had a very important debate with Malcolm X. It was, I think, in 1965, I think it was at Columbia, I think. And then of course Dr. King, that famous scene of Stokely Carmichael and Dr. King with his arms in basically saying, "Your time has passed." And Malcolm was saying that, "Bayard Rustin, your time has passed." By any means necessary. NC (24:32): Let us take a look at what happened. I mean, I happened to be in favor of... I was involved in non-violent resistance. And I thought, well, this was a wrong and a mistake. But nevertheless, let us look at what happened. As long as Martin Luther King was denouncing racist sheriffs in Alabama, he was very popular in the north. But then what happened afterwards, "I had a dream"? He turned to class issues. He turned, first of all, to opposition to Vietnam War, strong opposition and to class issues. He started a poor people's campaign. In fact, he was murdered, remember, in Memphis when he was helping to support a sanitation workers' strike. He was on his way to Washington for a poor people's campaign. Well, at that point, he was already being vilified. And in fact, if you take a look at the memorials to King every January 15th, they are overwhelmingly pure hypocrisy. They talk about the time when he was attacking racist Alabama sheriffs. Not the time when he was trying to organize poor people, was being vilified by northern liberals and was assassinated. SM (25:42): That is beautiful because that is the truth. And I firmly believe, and this is just me, and I would love your thoughts on this, that if Dr. King was alive today in his 80s, that even though we have got a day in memory of him, I think he would be sensitive because he was about we, it was not about me. And he also always talked- NC (26:08): But those days are not about him, they are about him when he was acceptable to the power system. It was about him when he was denouncing racist Alabama sheriffs. Yeah, we can all support that. How about when he is supporting organizing a poor people's movement or criticizing the Vietnam War? No, no, then he was becoming irrational and extreme. And we have to suppress that. So, the celebrations of Martin Luther King are not about him. They are about the part of him that is acceptable to power systems. SM (26:41): Well, I am amazed too because I studied this, and I found out that the two people that have the largest FBI records are Dr. King and Eleanor Roosevelt. Eleanor Roosevelt. NC (26:54): In fact, the largest state repression program in American history was Coen Dupro, which was mostly during the democratic administrations of the (19)60s. And then it started against the Communist Party and then the Puerto Rican nationalists and the Native American movement and the Black movement and the entire new left. And the women's movement, the Panthers, everyone, it was huge regression, totally criminal, led all the way to assassinations. It is wiped out American history. SM (27:32): You would have been a great speaker at Kent State. I do not know if you have ever been one of the speakers there, but they had the 43-remembrance and... NC (27:40): I have spoken there. SM (27:45): I feel that the two people that were missing this year at the Remembrance were you and Howard Zen. Now I am not sure if Howard would have... Dr. Zen would have made it, but I think your voice would have been very important there. Your thoughts on... Kent State to me was a watershed moment for a lot of people felt that everything kind of went belly up after Kent State, that pretty soon the giraffe was coming to an end and young white children, and then of course two Black children or young children were killed at Jackson State 10 days later. What does that mean to the end of so-called the anti-war movement or the (19)60s? Kent State and Jackson State were the line of demarcation. NC (28:40): Kent State is the one that enters history, not Jackson Street, because Blacks were being killed all the time. For example, Fred Hampton. SM (28:50): I always have to check this too. Sure. We are doing fine. Okay. NC (28:54): Kent State became a major movement because they were privileged white students. And yes, that did tell people who had made fun of themselves as victims that you too could be victims, but I do not think that was the end by any means. In fact, the Kent State was... After that came the mayday in Washington mass movement to try to close down Washington. I was there with Howard, in fact, other protests. The protest became strong enough so that they impelled Congress to terminate the bombing of Cambodia, August 1973. And they were strong enough so that the US had to withdraw from Vietnam matter. In fact, they remained strong enough so that the US had to narrowly constrain the invasion of Iraq and never got anywhere near the Vietnam War. The attacks, they could not just take a look, the casualty tools. They could not do any of the things that Kennedy and Johnson could do. And there was massive protest about it. So, I do not think it ended then. I just think it took new forms. But as I said, things like the solidarity movement, which is unique in the history of imperialism, it has never happened before. I mean, in France, nobody that organized to live in an Algerian village to try to help the people and maybe defend them with a white face. But thousands of Americans were doing that in the (19)80s in Central American wars. And now it is the international solidarity movements all over the world. One of the ships that just tried to break the guys at Flotilla was the Rachel Corrie. That is an American kid who was killed by a caterpillar bulldozer trying to protect the home. Things like that did not happen in the past. SM (30:47): You talked about the contributions, all the movements took place, the late (19)60s and early (19)70s. Many of them were offshoots of the civil rights movement because that was kind of a teacher to the other movements, the anti-war movement and the women's movement, even the gay and lesbian and certainly Earth Day in the environmental movement. Gaylord Nelson used that as the teachings as examples of it. NC (31:09): And that was it. That was the 1970, (19)71. SM (31:11): Right. NC (31:12): It is after the (19)60s. SM (31:13): Do you think that is that one of the greatest contributions of the Boomer generation are all the movements that developed over issues? Because today I think they are somewhat being criticized as being segregated. There used to be when you had the anti-war movements in the past, you would have all these groups together. Do you think there is a segregation, or this is there is... NC (31:37): They are supposed to be illusion. I mean, you had the big marches together for about two years. It is (19)68 and (19)67 through (19)69. It is a moment. It was important. It was focused on a major atrocity. Probably the major crime in the post-Second World War period was focused on that, trying to end it. And then it expanded in many different directions, and it should have. So, the feminist movement, for example, which probably has had more effect on American society than any other. Now that is from the (19)70s. It began in the (19)60s, but it really took off in the (19)70s. The environmental movement is (19)70s up until today. The anti-nuclear movement, which had like 80 percent of the population, that was the early (19)80s. Solidarity movements, which were massive and coming right out of mainstream America, incidentally. They were coming out of rural churches and Kansas and Arizona. That is the (19)80s. The global justice movement, (19)90s and today. All of this has its overall effect has been to civilized the country, which is exactly why it is hated and vilified. Now if you take a look at it like any popular movement, you're going to find a fringe of craziness. See? So, then you can kind of blow that up and say, "Okay, that is the movement. It was all silliness. It was all Woodstock." It had a civilizing effect on the society. And by the early (19)70s, that was causing panic among elites. I read someday the book called The Crisis of Democracy. Very important. SM (33:21): Who is the author of... NC (33:24): It is the Trilateral Commission. Liberal, internationalist elites in Europe, the United States and Japan. The American rep with Samuel Huntington from Harvard. I mean this is essentially the Carter administration. In fact, the Carter administration was drawn almost entirely from their ranks. And The Crisis of Democracy is concerned with the fact that the country was getting civilized. They could not stand it. These are the liberals, notice not the right wing. The right wing wanted law and order and so on. This is the liberals. They said there is too much democracy. There is an what they called an excessive of democracy. Now we have to have more moderation in democracy. People who are used to be passive and obedient in the good old days are now press entering the political arena to press their demands. So, there is a turmoil and challenges and that is no good. We have to have more moderation and get back in your box, follow orders, more indoctrination. That is the liberals. And that is the early (19)70s. And a lot of things happened then. That is specific number one of the motives for the drug war, surely, was to try to head off a very dangerous development. By the 1960s, many people, many young people, but also plenty of others, were beginning to question the doctrine that everything that the state does is noble, maybe mistaken, but noble. That is every state tries to impose that doctrine. We are noble. Maybe we make mistakes. You pick anyone you want, the most horrible monsters. That is the doctor. And that was accepted in the 19s through the (19)50s and so on. (19)60s began to be challenged and that was frightening. So, something had to be done to make us the victims. People were beginning to understand what say Fall had been saying years earlier, that it was the Vietnamese that were the victims. We were destroying them. That is dangerous. Well, the drug war was intended to make us the victims. It began with fantasies about an addicted army, mostly fantasies. You get Walter Cronkite; you are getting up on television saying that "Our brave boys in Vietnam are being attacked by the Vietnamese with guns and with drugs." They are trying to addict us, turn us into a nation of junkies and this rare society. So, we are really the victims of the Vietnamese. That is Walter Cronkite. I am not talking about Glenn Beck. That is Walter Cronkite. Liberal hero. And they manage to switch it around. We are the victims. That is why in 1977, Carter could say, "We owe them no debt because the destruction is mutual." And it is an amazing propaganda chief, having destroyed three countries. SM (36:22): When we think of the criticisms of presidents, at least Boomers when they were young, we think of Johnson and we think of Nixon, and I do not think of Ford that much. And certainly, whether you like Ronald Reagan, it is mostly an anti-Nixon, an anti-Johnson. Of course, Johnson was a liberal and Nixon was the most liberal Republican you could find. NC (36:46): I will tell you; he was the last liberal president in the United States. After that came away with conservatism beginning with Carter. SM (36:54): What you are really saying is that in terms of helping civilization as you see it, Boomers were very important in the protesting and setting a tone that we are not the most noble people because Vietnam. The two terms that seem to always bring fire... I have been in the university now for 30 some years. Two words that always seem to raise the, let us not talk about it or let us not go there, Vietnam and quagmire. You meant quagmire. David Halberstam. You mentioned those two words. NC (37:26): An interesting notion. See that is David Halberstam, who was a super hawk. You take a look at his reporting. It was pretty good reporting. But why was he criticized? He was criticized because he said the war is not going well. That is like criticizing some Nazi after Stalingrad who said the war is not going well. We do not call that criticism. And elsewhere we call it criticism. Here, but it is not. He was never Randy Warman, Halberstam. He was a decent reporter. He described what he saw, and he noticed what in fact the US command that polices the lower levels of it knew pretty well. Yeah, it is going pretty badly. The messages they were sending up to the top were, "It is going wonderfully." And he was criticized and considered anti-war for saying it is not true. Is that a criticism? We do not call that... It is an indication of how corrupt the intellectual culture is. We cannot conceive of the notion of criticism. And in fact, the degree of, let us say, take the American history, think there is some real crimes in American history like extermination of the Indigenous population. Why are we here? Is that a crime? Some of the major crimes of history. We are a settler colonial society. That is the worst kind of imperialism. Oh, normal imperialism just subjugates the population. Settler colonialism wipes them out. That is millions of people who were exterminated, and the founding fathers knew it. Like John Quincy Adams talked about what he called that hapless race of Native Americans who we are exterminating with such perfidious cruelty that one of the crimes for which someday God will punish us. It is John Quincy Adams, the founder of the Manifest Destiny, the great grand strategist. But is that part of American history? No. I mean, is slavery part of American history? Well, slavery is there only to say, "Well, we got over. Look how we got over it." In fact, we never got it. SM (39:44): That is why Howard's in this book, the alternative American history book is really good. NC (39:48): That is why it was very important. SM (39:49): That little booklet of essays is... It is just unbelievable. NC (39:55): But notice that his book just changed the consciousness of a generation by bringing out elementary facts that should have been in every elementary school for centuries. But it's considered radical because it was talking about elementary truths, and it still is not penetrated intellectually leads. So, if you read the New York Review of books, for example, the leading liberal intellectual left liberal intellectual journal, an article about a year ago by Russell Baker, who's a critical left analyst. And he talks about how when... He said when Columbus got to the Western Hemisphere, he found an empty continent with maybe a million people from the steaming tropics to the Antarctic stragglers. Kind of like he is off by maybe a hundred million or so. And they had an advanced civilization kind of like Europe except in savagery. But that is the New York Review denying the extermination of tens of millions of people. Today I checked to see there was not a single letter protesting. SM (41:06): When you look at the wall that was built and finished in 1982, and all the veterans coming back when majority of them felt like they were not welcomed home. And we know the history of how they were treated upon their return. NC (41:20): Well, that history is mostly mythology. SM (41:23): It is? NC (41:24): The spiting and all that stuff. SM (41:25): I know the spitting part, but in terms of the veterans of foreign wars, they would not even welcome a Vietnam vets back- NC (41:32): That is right. Because it was not a victory. SM (41:35): Okay. NC (41:36): They want victories. Actually, was a victory for the United States that destroyed Vietnam, but it was not a big enough victory. So, the super jingoists say you guys did not hack it. SM (41:48): When Jan Scruggs wrote the book To Heal a Nation, I had been to the Vietnam Memorial now for 35 times in a row, paying respects. I knew Louis Puller at the end of his life, and that is a great book, Fortunate Son. And I have noticed that the wall was built to heal the veterans. It was to be a non-political statement and it was to help the families of the loved ones who died and those who served. I noticed that there still is a lot of politics there. It is not on the stage, but just you hear it by what people wear, what people say. It is the body language, it is everything. So, we have got to come a long way. What do you think the wall has done in terms of healing the nation, if it has, because that is what Jan Scruggs was hoping he was going to do, the nation as well as the Vietnam veterans and their families. And I am not even sure if he was even thinking of the anti-war people. NC (42:51): I mean, the veterans and their families deserve sympathy and respect. But the big issue is not healing the nation. It is getting the nation to face up to what it did after the Second World War. The problem in Germany was not healing Germany. No, the problem was getting Germans to face up to what they did. It is the same with us. It's not just the defeated who have to face up the what they believe. It is also the victors. In fact, A. J. Muste, great pastor, he once said that the problem after a war is with the victors, that they think they have shown that violence pays, and they are the problem. Watch out for them, not the defeated. And that is right. And in Vietnam though, it was not a super victory. We did not turn Vietnam into the Philippines like a miserable colony. Nevertheless, it was a substantial victory for the United States. When Carter said the destruction was mutual, I mean, the fact that people did not... There was not an uprising of protest. It's amazing. I mean, take a walk in Cordini Province and New York. Is it the same? Destruction was mutual, but that is Carter. SM (44:18): Right. NC (44:20): That is a lot for us to be ashamed of. SM (44:22): When you go to the wall and you stand there, obviously everybody has different perceptions, but when you look at that granite wall and all those names... Two more minutes? Speaker 3 (44:35): He is the boss. NC (44:35): Yeah. Two more minutes. SM (44:36): Yep. What do you see? NC (44:39): What I see is sympathy and pain for the victims. The victims include the American soldiers, includes their families, but a thousand times more, a million times more, it includes the countries and the people we destroyed. SM (44:58): The three million who died in Vietnam. NC (45:00): Probably four million or so were killed in Vietnam. And huge numbers of loss in Cambodia. It is countries that were just destroyed. That part's in turn to moonscapes. SM (45:13): I guess that is... That would be fine. Thank you very- (End of Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Dr. Noam Chomsky