40 10 1775 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/486fcd67b3b93b7cdae2e808428a762d.pdf 73bd067c7512639fb3577b3daa44cc98 PDF Text Text .,. R I p L ~ c . ,. ./ . I Id ... s c 0 L L t 6 ~ \ �����• -• ••r·'SJ !J~ .' p.:mpJB • \YJl!}'l.Y ~$ t~p~s!l!Jly ~bt3 Jtl,t;t)J~ • a , I1 • ,.;;.11•:l•.I "11) 1· ~ .1<1h:<). shb ikit y.:irh;c)~. Sc> hg h1iilt, . ......... 'J'h:1J1 :µJl~s lsl-Jpl1~J!)11 Sllu~~ ll fDJlss~ . ~UI~ ~ 'IJ:ji~JI) . •Jmvern ty Arctwes Binghamton University L1branes ��f,1atll} Adt 1101' MR. FRITZ HIER SHELDON DAVIS f.i/1101 11 wrhml bli1m ..... . SONIA Ni:JAME ROBERT DAVIES Cnp; b lllor . . . JERRY GIBBS NORM DECKER \p11111 h/1101 ... HELEN HUDDA DAVE G ARMAN Pho101:1aph; f.J1101· . GEORG E NEUMANN :irt E.!1101 ... HANK HANCOCK BERNIE GARLOCK ORLANDO BUSINO ..... DICK HAMANN ROLAND CUILLERIER .. . MACK VEGARD JIM BROWN AL HANSEN STAN GOLDEN JEAN FAIRBROTHER BILL JONES SHIRLEY DAWSON RALPH FOREST 6 �DEDICATION ~ HISTORY ~ ADMINISTRA TION ~ CRACKER BARREL ·~ STUDENT BODY ~ ORGANIZATI ON ~ ATHLETICS ~ ACTIVITIES ~ STUDENT DIRECTORY ~ ADVERTISING ~ e ·e e e e e e e e e �Tnple ( 1ties College, as most of us know it, 1:. only two ye.tr:. olJ, yet as far back JS 19 32 Syracuse University est.1blishcJ 1b University Ex tension Program in EnJ1cott. their collq~e HunJreJs of .lrL.l stuJc.:nts beg.in work unJcr the Program anJ then went on to Syr.1cuse or ~ome other un1vers1t}' to complete ''ork for their Ltt<:r, n1µht d.t>sts, rnrresponJing to Thi~ type offering prO\e,I .1 ,111 <:\tcmion pro- gr<:.lt boon to .uea of TCC was maJe in 19•1I, '' he:n a res1- managed this extension work wh1d1 prev 1ou ~ I }' 8 lu,I �been handled from the main campus. Despite the war and decreased college enrollments resulting from it, the extension classes in Endicott continued to grow so that by 1946 more than 225 students were enrolled for the first year's college work and were planning to continue for degrees. The demands for additional college courses and educational opportunities were so compelJing that the University inaugurated an expanded program in the falJ of 1946. In January, 1946, the Bowes mansion in Endicott was purchased from the International Business Machines Corporation, and now serves as the College Administration building. In April, several vacant Jots bordering on the original purchase were added to provide space for classroom buildings. Erection of temporary classrooms and alterations of the original building were begun in 9 �July, and by October l the College opened with 957 students enrolled. A resident faculty of 55 members was assembled under the deanship of Dr. G len n G. Bartle, formerly of the University of Kansas City, and a full scale program of freshman and sophomore classes was offered. Many remember those early days of the 1946 Fall Semester. Classes were held in the pavilion and clubhouse in En-Joie park, while the temporary buildings were being completed . When they were opened, the first few weeks were spen~ in huddling around coal stoves and listening to lectures. However, the central heating unit was completed, the students and faculty thawed out, and Triple Cities College was firmly established. As soon as students and faculty were settled down m their new environment, clubs and social groups were o rganized, and in December, the United Student Government was formed , with Ed Bakerman as the first president. D u r 1 n g the io �first year , the Colonial News, the ( olonial Players, anJ Yanous athletic teams made their debut. This year the college has added "West Hall" to its facilities, and the faculty has been increased to 73. The outlook for 1948 is one of still more expansion. A bigger staff will be needed, and eighty full-time faculty members are planned for. This college, which, in two years, has grown with great speed, has now reached the point where it is able to offer degrees in six major fields. We are no longer an extension school. We are in reality a fullfledged institution. The all important news about TCC assuming four-year status was announced by Dean Bartle on January 27, 1948, and probably was the most important step taken by the college since its inception. No longer is the Southern Tier a "Black spot" on the education al map. The future a1 >ears to contain room for unlimited expansion. We look forward hopefully to the day when the "New Look" will becomL a reality for Triple Cities College. 11 ���CHANCELLOR TOLLEY Dr. Wilham Pe.uson Tolley, through whose dforts Triple Cities College was foun<le<l .is a permanent 1nst1tut1on. 1s the seventh chancellor of Syracuse University Dr. Tolley rece1veJ his B.ichelor of Arts <legree from Syracuse 1n 19.22, ?\.faster of Arts 1n t 924, an<l Doctorate of Philosophy from Columbia in 19 30. Following his acceptance of the Pres1<lency of Allegheny College in 1931. Dr. Tolley rap1Jly became a national hgure in higher e<lucat1on, and gamed fame as the youngest college pre,1dent 1n the Un1teJ served 111 St.He~. A Phi Bet.i K,1pp.1. he has an exc.'Cut1vt· (apauty educational organ1z.1t1ons VICE-CHANCELLOR CRAWf-ORD Dr. Fmla Crawford, Dean of the College of Liberal Arts, Hea<l of the Political Science Depart· ment of Maxwell School of Citizenship, and V1ceChancellor of Syracuse Un iversity, has been a member of the Syracuse facu lty since 1919. Well known as a teacher, educational administrator, and civic kader, he i~ also the author of many books on political science anJ economics. Dr. Crawford serves in the capacity of advisor to Dean Bartle and 1s the im· med iate lt.uson officer between Triple Cities College ,1nJ yracusc University. in many uv1c anJ �Within the pages of this book you will find a pictorial record and a narrative account of some of the outstanding events of the first two years in the history of Triple Cities College of Syracuse University. It is to be hoped that even an outsider, looking idly through this record, may sense the essential spirit of fellowship and good-will which permeates this new institution. Those of us who have lived these two years together as students, faculty members and administrative staff do not need this printed word to tell us of the high morale of this College. But as time passes and as details fade from our memory, this book will have increasing value as a remainder not only of the events chronicled but of other more numerous and more personal episodes which are now a part of the background of each of us. Together we have seen this College grow through periods which may be flippantly described as: ( 1) the "Sunday-School Room Curtain" stage, (2) the ''Pot-Bellied Stove" stage, and ( 3) the "One Unit Crowded Corridor" stage, into ( 4) the "Two Unit Adequate (though temporary) Class Room" stage. These physical stages represent educational epochs (1) for Freshman work only, {2) for Freshman and related work, and (3) for Freshman, Sophomore and related work, to the present (4) Limited Major program of a four year college. We are just beginning. Bigger and better physical stages and broader and more comprehensive educational epochs lie before us. We will achieve these goals because destiny is with us and because we are united in the objective of placing in this area a splendid educational institution, fully worthy of the pride and esteem of the community and of ourselves Glenn G. Bartle Dean 15 �MR. MOSES Although the major interest of Registrar Moses is political science, h:s fields of study have been diversified, including education at Lackawanna Business College, Wyoming Seminary, Penn State Engineering Extension, Syr,1cuse University, and Harvard Un1vers1ty Graduate School. His teaching career began when in 1936 he joined the faculty of Syracuse University as an instructor in political science, and by 1938, he was Assistant Dean of Men. With the establishing of T.C.C. as a four-year college, Mr. Hopkins-Moses 1s seeing t.1e materialization of a vision formed many years before "'hen he was appointed ,1s director of the Endicott Extension of Syracuse Universtt} MISS PLANKINTON In August of l 9.:i6, Miss Plankinton c,1me to T.C.C to assume the position of Counselor of Women . She obtained her B.A. 1n English at the University of Oregon and her M.A. in Personnel at the University of Syracuse. During the war, she served as an officer 111 the Spars in Washington, D. C. In addition to counseling the greatly outnumbered co-eds, Miss Plankinton has worked in collaboration with Mr. Kimball in planning an<l executing the stu<lenl personnel program, which 111clu<les counseling, testing student government activities, housing an<l part-time Jobs. She has also worked with the Dean on special college planning committees and has charge of all secretarial personnel. MR. KIMBALL Jack F. Kimball, Director of Student Personnel, was with the charter clan of T.C.C. in August, 1946, coming from the University of Kansas City where he was Assistant to the Dean of the Liberal Arts College. He graduated from this University and also studied at Syracuse University. During the war, he was a Navy l1euten:1nt and an assistant personnel otl1Cer He abo taught commun1cat1ons at the Officers· Training School, Newport, Rho<le Island. His present duties involve coordinating personnel counseling services, the student health service, the housing bureau, the )Ob-placement bureau, extra-curricular activities and veterans' affairs. 16 �RUDOLPH SIPPOLA A graduate of Columbia University and As· Treasur<:r from 1943 to 1946 at Syracuse University, Mr S1ppola ts now Business Manager .lt TU' ~1stant rRITZ HIER A graduate of Dartmouth College and the Syracuse University School of Journalism, Mr Hier is now the Director of Public Relations and an instructor in journalism. HERBERT LEET Our Librarian, Mr Leet, was a former librari.m at Ond Central School, New York and rerel\·ed his depee from Syracuse Un1vers1ty. MARY NEWSHOLME The Food Director. Mis\ Ncwsholme, lus had prior experience .It Vassar, \X'tllsley an<l ''1th the Li • go,crnmc:nt in Honolulu. JOHN MALLORY The School Physician, Dr. Mallory, is a gradu.lte of SyrauJSe University an<l 1s .1 practicing phym·1.rn 111 the Endicott area. ANNE MI.ADE The Collc:ge nurse is a graduate of the Massa· thuseth (,encral Ho~pital in Boston. She served I 1 months in the European Theater as a member of the Army Nurse Corps. From left to right: Dorothy Holmes, Mrs. Marjorie Isban, Mrs. Lillian Bell, Mrs. Jemma Theodore, Faye Crosctto, Ruth Chermak, Mrs. Edith James, Mrs. Sally Htll1ard, Mrs. Margaret Easton, Barbara Cook, Olga Sw1tzko, Jane Ely, Mrs. Josephine Downey, Mrs. Grace Rushmyre, Marion Mower. 17 �SIDNEY P. ALBERT, Assistant Professor Philosophy Department Head ETHAN 0. ALLEN, Instructor Mathematics MARY E. ATCHLEY, Instructor English- Foreign Languages THOMAS E. BATTAGLINI, Assistant Instructor-Chemistry JOHN P. BELNIAK, Instructor Citizenship Political Science WILLIAM BLACK, Graduate Assistant Geography ( LEMENT G. BOWERS, Lecturer Botany BERTRAM BRODER, Instructor Business Administration Dept. Head BEATRICE D. BROWN, Assoc. Professor English Department Head ERIC BRUNGER, Instrudor History HILDA CHIARULLI, Instructor Business Administration WILLIAM L. CLAFF, Instructor Business Administration 18 �ARTHUR CLAYDON, Instructor Economics CHARLES DIVINE, Lecturer English ROY DUBISCH, Assistant Professor Mathematics Department Head HAMILTON P. EASTON, Asst. Professor History Department Head YOLANDA FARGNOLI, Asst. Instructor Foreign Languages WAYNE S. FARROW, Instructor Speech HEINRICH E. FRIEDLAENDER, Lecturer Economics J. JOHN D. HALL, Instructor Citizenship Department Head MARGARET HASENPFLUG, Instructor English EDWARD HERBERT, Instructor English CLARKE F. HESS, Instructor Geography 19 ALEX GILFILLAN, Assoc. Professor Music Department Head �FREDERICK Sociology J. HOLLISTER, Instructor JEAN IVORY, Asst. Instructor Citizenship-Political Science HENRY C. KETCHAM, Lecturer Physics MILDRED M. KELLOGG, Instructor English RODNEY K. KETCHAM, Assoc. Professor Foreign language Department Head FERDINANDO MAURINO, Instructor Forci,gn Languages HELEN J. NAGY, Instructor Psychology MARTIN A. PAUL, Associate Professor Chemistry Department Head ORVAL PERRY, Instructor Philosophy MARTHA PITEL, Instructor Zoology EDWARD R. POMEROY, Instructor Art CHARLES RElTEMEYER, Instructor Business Administration 20 �HAROLD E. ROCKWELL, lnstructor Forc:rgn Languages MARCELLE SCHUBERT, Asst. Profc:ssor Ch<:m1stry G. RALPH SMITH, Instructor Economics Dept. Hea<l JOSEPH VAN RIPER, Associate Professor Gc:ology ,ind Geography Depts. Head !·RANCES M. \X'RIGHT, Mathematics ln~tructor ROBERT RUSSELL, Instructor English DOUGLAS SILVERTON, Asst Professor Fnglish \X'. PORTER SWIFT, Asst. Prof<:ssor Psrchology Dept. Head JAMES H. WILMOTH, Asst. Professor Zoology Dept. Head ROBERT E. POWER . Instructor C it1zensh1p Dept. Head 21 ���Silent Night Dr. Freud, I Presume Oui Monsieur 24 �Workshop Counseling Study in Brown 25 �26 �27 �LocateJ near the heart of Jowntown EnJ1cott i~ the suavest, most exclusive countr}' club 111 New York State-Lt· C.ollcge des Triple Cities. Offering the best in rc:lax.ttion facilities, Le College has at ih disposal two lounges, t'' o recreation halls, arid is within ,1 ston<:"s throw of the Monlt marte section of EnJicott. The lounges, Cafe P1galle Downstairs and Upstairs (with its celebrated gaming tables), are open to all members and the1 r guests as arc the two recreation halls. Cafe Pigalle Downstairs is famed for its Bohemian atmosphere It is here where we find authentic "'students·· (as the denizens quaintly term themselves). It may be well to point out at this time the distinction between · students · and ·'teachers"' as many tounsts make the unfortunate error of confounding the two. In Le College des Triple Cities there exists a strict caste system. This system consists of two groups, the teachers" and the "'students," who have as ltttle 28 �to <lo wnh c,1ch other a, possible. The group' can be d1stm gu1shed m '.ir1ous '' .1p. Member-. of om woup dres~ m ba;.:gy blut serge suits. come to school 1n v111tage automobiles. and ue gener.1lly 1denttfieJ br their ~eedy look These. the untouch.1ble:-.•ire commonly called te.1d1er\... The upper caste, the -.tudcnt~. (,in be J1stingui>hed by their surplus Arm} clothes, r.1cy con,·erubles. and pht1num hip flasks. There 1' a ><:'<:re taboo against extra-curricular relation~ between th<: members of the two castes. When passing in the corridor' a tea< her may not address a student unless the \tudent speaks first, etc However, to get back to the Cafe Do" nst,11rs, it I> strewn '' ith furniture of two periods (pre-" ar and post-war) These lo\'efy maple pieces ,1re CO\'ere<l wtlh students. The ratio 1s ,1bout seven students to one piece, thus we have six frust rate<l male students to-- (but enough of these dry stat1st1cs) A \'is1tor to 1h1s stronghold of free-thinking ltberaltsm woul<l be 1mpresse<l by the brilliance of the conversation between the students. Here, for the benefit of those less adven- 29 �turous souls, we present a transcript of a bonifide conversation between two students: " Agnes, can. I copy your Chemistry homework ?" "Shove off, Chauncey." "But Agnes, you said I could copy your homework." "I said, Shove off .. . Schmoe." "Listen Agnes, you come across or else ... " " Or else what?" "Or else I'll bash you with my COMPLETE WORKS Of SHAKESPEARE." "Oh you will, eh?" " Yeah, I will." "Yeah ?" "Yeah !" " Yeah ?" "Yeah- Yeah! !" 30 �Visitors of the Cafe Pigalle Upstairs will be thrilled by the sight of some of the most daring gambling seen off the Miss1ssipp1. Daily exhibitions of the fine art of contract bridge are i;:1ven by Eli Clubreitstien and chc three Motleys (part of the crew). It w.is here that Rash-Robert Rielly made a daring attempt at a one club contract and wc.-nt down gallantly (he only had 7 y2 honor counts). Many were the fights that took place in the Cafe Pigalle Upstairs. (It got so rough that the management had to locate the infirmary on the prem· ises) . No place in the Southern Tier can match the atmosphere that oozes out under the door of the old Cafe P1galle Upstairs. Bartie's Billiard Academy- "Ladies lnvited"-is another place where one can absorb the lusty, Bohemian atmosphere that abounds in Le College. Here, nestled against the boiler room, 1s the smoke filled den where students generally discuss pertinent political issues of the day. 31 II I �'Six ball in the si<le pocket that i\landa b.1r fate<l north)" Sar Beowulf. <lid you say ·No. Percy. I said it facc<l south take one off your score ... You just scratched, ··vou said it farc<l north." " I s.1id, south- now will you take one off your score?" "North." "South- Jeduct your scratch before I belt you one." "Oh yeah )" "Yeah!" "Yeah?" "Yeah, Yeah!" The ping-pong room is locate<l J irectly across the hall from Bartie's Academy. Here is the home of the fast, sporty crowd- the sweaty set. The place reeks of sportsmanship. Picture yourself watching the game-two agile opponents, duelling over a plywood rectangle of green. . . Keen eyes 32 �\\atching each other's every move (they're both cross-eyed) The click of the celluloid pellet and · Hcy Rollo, v. hat s the score?" · Ninttcen-seventcen, my fayor" P.irdon me, old chap, its nineteen-seventeen, my favor. "Really, old scout, I don't want to be obstinate-but the score 1s nrnc:tecn to seventeen, Ill) favor." "Deuc1dly sorry you're right. It rs nineteen to seventeen your favor. My fault, old chap." "Not at .di, it's my error entirely, old scout." · No, old m.tn. it's fl1} error." "Dammit, it's mine." !"lit htll 1t 1~. 1t s my error." "Oh }e.1iiJ" 'Yuh!" ·Yeah!" ' Yeah yeah!" And so, I ka,·c you to enjoy yourselYes at Le College Jes Triple Cities just make yourselves at home. 33 �34 ��u. s. . BA< K Row: Bob Appe, Doris Jones, Bill McCaffrey, John Fowler. rRoNT Ro\\. Joe Lite, Mike Sejan, Mike Foley, Nancy Brown, Dennis Bottino. Previous to the first election of a student govern· ment. a temporary political body framed a constitution for the. USG, and on December l 2, the proposed cons~itu t 1on was ratified. A day later, Edwin Baker· nun became the first USG president by a piurality of two votes. ElcxteJ to serve under Bakerma!1·s administration wue Lenn.ut Erikson, vice· president; Kath I ee n Br.idy, secret.try. \Xfilli.1m Everts, tre,tsurer; and nine members-al large: Robert Appe, Joseph Lite, Wil· l1.11n Cur.is, Jean Fairbrother, John Heimann, Martha I fusvar, Al,tn Pinkus, Joseph Buran, and Doris Jones. President Bakcrman ·s first oflici.11 propos.11 was the tnstitut1on of :rn honor system at TCC, but after student cons1dc.ration the proposal was abandoned. H1~hlighting the early months of the initial USG was Bakcrm.tn·s pol1Cy d isfavoring fraternities, and Im government"s support of a Congressiona l bill for inueasing ,·eterans· subsistence all owance. He also ins .ilute,I an Advisory Committee on Student Con· Jult, composed of studenb, to rev iew cases of mis· <.onduct '' llhm the student body. In the lmc of social activities, the USG in· ,1u~urated sc.vcral annual affairs during its first year of operation Highlight of 1916 was ti- Mistletoe 36 Ball, but THE affair o f the school yea r was the Spring Weekend, May 9· 10, wh ich included the Spring Soiree and an all-day outing at Chenango Valley State Park. The first week of October, 1947, President Baker· man stirred student political aspirations by resigning. An election was set for October 29, at which time a new president was to be elected to comp lete Baker· man's unexpired term. Five other vacancies caused by transfers, were also filled at the election. Before terminating his office, however, President Bakerman made one more proposal. In a letter to Chancellor Tolley, Bakerman asked for reconsideratio n of the $50 increase in tuition, pointing out that present facilities at TCC d id not warrant the increase. No .1ction was taken on the complaint. USG 1947-48 " FOLEY WINS! LIBER ALS CAPTURE ENTIRE SLATE ; 625 STUDENTS VOTE AT POLLS" The above screaming headlines in the Colonial News proclaimed that Mike Foley of Binghamton had carried a strong majority over presidential candidate Richard Streb. Carrying all of his party can· d1dates with him, "Foley & Co." swept into office. �MiC"hael Sejan became the new vice-presi<lent; l\larcia Moss, secretary; Nancy Brown, treasurer; an<l J1>hn fo,, !er, Dennis Bottino, an<l Wtll1.1m Rigney dc:feat~d seven other can<lidates for member-at-la rge vacanuc:~. Prc:salent Fole} inst1tute<l a non-profit Student Loan Agencr "l11ch a1Jed ' finanually emb.urassed" student\, espenally veterans who found their monthly check5 stret(hc·d heyond c.1paoty Foley abv carried TC(\ p.irkmg problem to Endicott Police and thc: Board of Trust<:es, with the result that a paved parkm~ lot •hlpcent to West Hall was constructed by the cit}. On the: soc 1Jl side, President Foley w.1s inst ru ment.ti 111 obta 111mg the first name band to play for TCC studc:nts. On December I 2, Randy Brooks, fresh from the Cafe Rouge of New York's Hotel Penn s} h ani.1, brought his " Golden Trumpet" and b,1nd to our second annual Mi stletoe Ball. The USG also sponsored the second annual Turkey Hop on No,ember 25. On March 3, 19•18, Joseph o·Neill polled 308 votes to John Fowler's 2 38. The 3r<l USG president entered office with Camille Roach who was electe<l vice-presiden t; Doris Jones, secretary ; Art Brehm, treasurer; and the following nine members-at-l arge: Jerry Gibbs, Mike Biloz, Pat Lamb, Bob Bargetzi, Herb Call.1han, Hob Fox, Bill Walling, Bob Kenne<ly, and Jim Jordan. President O'Nc:ill, emphasizing his desire to encourage we.1ter student interest in the USG, appointtd mc:mbt rs-at-large to htad standing committees made up of non-office holdtrs from the student body. He also organized a coordinating board made up of pres1<lents of various student organizations , to handle student activities. Election Day The Winners- First USG Election Committee A "Grand" Picture I .,.nf'\:1 '" f f•Ut C., l(111\ I 01.11 Jl·(~'l lltl llDMU 'f(tU f\f.I\ t 1PS~'t1t•tU 0 \~I LOlllflQ\ • \\II I ;t \QI I~ P'!P1ffUt' 4f l41lf.at 1 111 '"(1 fl/I • Ml l\I HllO/ • l'Clfl I 0 \ 4\\1 lA 'II l 110(1 1 nri ~o . en c,nor .\ ~11'1 JOnlll "- • !'llH QR 1!111 ,, 1000'' 37 �FIRST Row (left to right) : Charles C. Abbey, Dorothy B. Abbey, Harry Accurso, Lan ning E. Ace, Vivian Agana. SrcoNn Row: Ralph Agudo, Tofik Ahmed, Donald Alford, Remo All io, Josephine Allio. Row: Wayne Anderson, Marilyn Andrus, Edward A. Antal, George Antonakos, Evelyn Armstrong . THIRD F OURTH Row : W alter Arnold , Alan Ascher, Owen Ash, Vincent Attisani, Charles Auer. 38 �FIRST Row (left to right): Michael AveJisian, Donald AxelroJ, Stanley J. Bachman. SECOND Row: Edwin Bakerman, John Banta, Peter Barbone. FIRST Row (left to right): Robert Bargetzi, Joyce Barnes, Robert Barrows. SECOND Row: Charles W. Bartow, Richard Bastiano, Joseph Baxter. TH IRD Row: Frank Beach, Edward Beall, John Bean. FOURTH Row: Bruce K. BeGassc, Jeanette L. Bellinger, Robert Benz. FIFTH RO\X : Paul C. Berg, Edward Bernhauer, Milton Bernstein. 39 �FIRST Row (left to right): Carol Best, H omer Biggs, James Bihr. SECOND Row: John Bilos, Jr., Michael Biloz, Joseph Bishara. FIRST Row (left to right): Russell Bishop, Eugene Bisignani, Herbert Blanchard. SECOND Row: Robert Blesh. Sherman Bletchman, Holland Blinn. THIRD Row: Geraldine Bloom, Irving Bloom, Wesley Bogart. FOURTH Row: Allan J. Bombard, Selma Bond, Alfred Bornstein. FIFTH Row : Dennis Bottino, Joseph Bottino, Wal lace R. Bouskill. 40 �Row (left to right): Martin Bovee, Wayne Bowdish, John Boyce, Frances F. Brees, Arthur Brehm. FIRST SECOND Row: Robert C. Brewer, Wilbur I. Brewer, Harry W. Brigham, Jack M. Brink, Allan T. Britton. Row: Arnold M. Brown, David H. Brown, James L. Brown, James W. Brown, Josephine Nancy Brown. THIRD FOURTH Row·: Marilyn Brown, Mayer Brumer, Vincent J. Bucciferro, Chester Buchanan, Jack Budd. 41 �Row (left to right): Donald Buffum, Joseph Buran, Michael Buran, Robert Buran, Leonard D. Burns. FIRST Row: Robert Byron, Marilyn Cain, Dominick Calabrisi, Carmine Calenti, Herbert Callahan. Sr<.OND Row: Thomas Callahan, Robert Callen, Alfonso Calleo, James Campbell, James Canny. THIRD Row: Jim Carey, John Carey, Betty Jean Carl, George Carlton, Irving Carroll. FOURTH 42 �Row (left to right): Robert Carson, Lt:O Cary, Anthony Casamo. FIRST Row: Clifford Casterton, Ralph Catanese, James Cecilian. SECOND Row (left to right): frank Celona, E<lward Cernak, Gordon C. Champney. FIRST Row: Eugene H. Chernak, Kenneth Chertok, Elliot S. Chester. SECOND TmRD Row: William Childs, Bernal Church, Joseph Ci alco. Row: Ernest Cinotti, Martin Citron, James Clapham. FOURTH Row: Donald Clark, Douglas Clark, Earl S. Clark. FIFTH 43 �FIRST Row (left to right): Harold Clark, Robert W. Clark, Thomas Clark. SECOND Row: William Clark, Edwin G. Clarke, Robert Cleary. FIRST Row (left to right): A lbert Clemente, Richard Clinton, John Cobb, Jr. SECOND Row: Leo J. Cody, James Cohn, Edward Coleman. THIRD Row: Jeannine Conklin, Frederick Conte, Roland Cook. FOURTH Row: James Cooper, Marilyn Corell, Charles Cosby. F1FTH Row: George Cotcher, Edwin G. Courtright, Delwcrt Craft. 44 �FlRST Row (left to right): Richard Crapo, Claude A. Crawford, Jr., John B. Crawford, Robert Creveling, William Crooks. SECOND Row: Theophilus Crosby, Owen Crumb, Edward Cruty, Roland Cuillerier, Joe Curatolo. THIRD Row: Sarah Curatolo, Nicholas Danyluk, Joanne D'Aprile, Roy Darpino, Marjorie Davenport. FOURTH Row: Bruce D. Davidson, Howard Davies, Robert H. Davies, William R. Davies, Lawrence Davis. 45 �FIRST Row (left to right): Sheldon A. Davis, Shirley Dawson, Frank DcBencdittis, Raymond Dcchene, George Decker. SECOND Row: Norman Decker, Raymond Decker, Paul Delorenzo, Cyril Derrick, Henry C. D'Esti. Row: Bernard Detrick, Conrad A. DeWan, Paul H. Dewey, Robert J. Dickerson, Charles Dieffenbach. THIRD FOURTH Row: Michael Dino, Robert M. Dolan, Nicholas A. Donatelli, Roger K. Donnelly, George W. Donovan, Jr. ENGLISH 46 �FIRST Row (left to right): James L. Donovan George Doyle, Anne Duda. SECOND Row: James Duffy, Jack Dumbleton, KeittDunklee. FIRST Row (left to right): Edwin Dunn, Gertrude Dunn, Frank E. Duntley, Jr. SECOND Row: Charles B. Durham, Dorothy Dweres, John Dyer. THIRD Row: Julia Early, Robert M. Early, J. G. Burt Easton. f oU RTH Row: Vernon Elderkin, Jr., Oren Eldred, Frank Elkins. FIFTH Row: Stewart Elliott, D. Bruce Ellis, Greydon Ellison. 47 �FIRST Row (left to right): William Ellison, Conrad Ellner, Daniel J. Emilio. SEC.ONO Row: Lennart V. Erikson, Edward Esserman, Joseph W. Esworthy. FIRST Row (left to right): Howard R. Evans, Thomas Evans, William Everts. SECOND Row: E. Jean Fairbrother, Samuel Falbo, John Fallon. THIRD Row: William Farber, John Fedukc, Phillip Feinburg. FOURTH Row : Alvin Fenner, James Ferrara, Mary A. Ferrari. FIFTH Row: Joseph Fetcho, William Fiester, Frank Filetto. 48 �Row (left to right): Jules Finkclstc:in, Lenore Finkelstein. Gerald Fl.inagan, R1Chard Flynn, Edward M. Foley. FIRST Stemm RO\'<'· John Forem:in, R.dph Forest, \X'tlli:im I.. Formanek, John M Fowler, Robert F. Fox. Row: Robert French. Robc:rt Fncnd, Vernon C. Fritz, Paul P Frtyal. ( Herbert Fry THIRD Row: John Fuller, Frank M. Furman, Nell1c C,a<los, Robert Gallagher, Anthony J. Gance. FOURTH 49 �FIRST Row (left to right): Bernard Gariock, David Garman, Edith Jane Garson, Edward M. Gavin, Thomas J. Gavin. SECOND Row: Alan H. Geiser, Thomas W. Gent, Jr., Vincent Giarusso, Marjorie Gibbs, Richard Gibbs. TrnRo Row: Edward J. Gildea, Joseph G. Gilg, Loren D. Gilliam, Richard J. Gillies, Thomas L. Gillson. FOURTH Row: Robert Glanville, Raymon<l A. Glazier, Donal<l K. Glover, Stephen R. Gober, Erwin Gol<lberg. 50 �FIRST Row (left to right): Stanley D . Golden, Inge Goldschmidt, Frances Goodenough. SFCOND Row: Walter Gorman, Diane Goundry, Laurence Grant. FLRST Row (left to right): Sally Grass, Dolores Green, Osca r J. Green, Jr. SECOND Row: Ralph V. Green, Myron E. Gregory, Everett ]. Grimm. THIRD Row: Alan Grubow, David Guerdat, Charles Guernsey. FOURTH Row: William Gullborg, H erbert Haas, Harry A. Hafler. Row: John P. Haggerty, Richard E. Haggerty, Jack 0. Hall. FIFTH 51 �FIRST Row (left to right): Herbert Halliday, Richard E. Hamann, William Hanak. SECOND Row: Carlyle Hancock, Allen Hansen, James Hargreaves. FIRST Row (left ro right) : Gus H aroldson , Robert H artman, Robert J. Hastings. SECOND RO\X': Willi am Hebenstreet, John H eimann, George H . H einsohn. THIRD Row: William C. H erciga, John J. H eron , Jr. , Richard Herzer. FOURTH Row : Alvin Heyman, Clayton Paul Hilliard, John W. Hinds. FIFTH Row: Howard L. Hinman, William R. Hoag, Thomas J. Hohn. 52 �FIRST Row (left to right): Robert E. Holl, Robert E. Hood, Philip L. Hopkins, George Horkott, John Horkott. St COND Row: William Horsey, William Hotchkiss, Karl Houseknecht, Russdl Howe, E<lwarJ Hric1ga Ro\\ : John Hud;tk, Helen Hudda. Eliubcth Huencr, John Hunt. Gu1Jo Iacovell1. THIRD FoLRTH Ro\\·: Jo~cph L1nnone, Robert Isb.1n, Richard A. Ives, Thomas Ivory, Andrew Jacoby. 53 �Row (left to right): John James, Hedwig Jasielonis, Warren Jennings, Jr., Maria Jimenez, James Johnson. FIRST Row Thomas J. Johnston, James E. Johnstone, David Jones, Dons Jones, Henry Jones. SECOND Row: Thomas G. Jones, William Jones, James R. Jordan, Donald J. Joseph, Arthur Jubin. THIRD Row: Louis Jurena, Leo Kales, Arthur Kalliche, John R. Kane, Robert Kankus. FOURTH 54 �FIRST Row (left to right): John V. Kars, Julian Kasmer. J. Kar, Jr., Charles SECOND Row: John Keigher, Eugene Kemp, Robert Kennedy. FIRST Row (left to right): Francis Keough, E. Mark Kerestes, Harold Kerstein. SECOND Row: Barbara Kessler, Gerald R. Killam. William Kinch. THIRO Row: Gordon D. King, Jack D. Klingman, Edward Koast. FOURTH Row: Robert Kolosk i, John Konik, John Kostyun . FIFTH Row : George Koury, Neil Krewson, Henry P. Kroeger. 55 �FrRST Row (left to right): Owen Kroeger, William Kucharek, Marion Kulik. SECOND Row: Nicholas Kul ik, Stephen Kuratnick, Nicholas L. Kustas. FtRST Row (left to right): William G. Kustas, William J. Kustas, Edward Kwiatkowski. SECOND Row: Roger Lakin, Patricia Lamb, Howard Landon. THIRD Row: Robert LaRue, James Lauder, John J. Leary, Jr. FOURTH Row: Leonard Levitt, John Lewis, Ralph Linnell. FIFTH Row: Russell Lisson, Joseph Lite, Harry Littlejohn. 56 �Row (left to right): Dons Li\'1ngs~on, Franc1~ Look. Lawrence Loveland. Austin Lowry, \Xlalter Ludl.un FIRST Ro\\: Ralph Lulkoski, Joseph I.pich, Alfred McC.iffrcy, \X'tlliam McCatTrcr, Joan McConnell. SFCOND T11rno Row: William McCormack, Harold McCormick, Edward McCusker, Lawrence McGrath, Barbara J\kGuirc. fouRTli Row: James McHale, Jeanne J\lcHcnka, William McMahon, Robert A. McNair, Robert D. McNutt. �Row (left to right): Peter Macan, John M.1ck, Robert Mahar, William Maher, Howard W. Maines. FIRST SECOND RO\\: Chester Majka, Thom:is Makrcs, John C. Malik, Jr., Herbert Maltby, Floyd Mangus. Ro\\-: Joseph Manning, Arthur M.rnso, Anthony P. Marano, Samuel Markanan, Wood Markham. T11IRD fOURl H Row: Joyce Martin, Raymond Martin, Donald Mat- thews, Carolyn Mayer G reene, William Mayer. 58 �FIRST Row (left to right): Michael Mazzei, Beverly J. Meagher, George Meaker. Row: William Melinsky, Davi<l Merrilees,· Bertram Mersereau. SECOND Row (left to right): Joseph Meyers, Julian H. Michel, Arlene Michlik. FIRST Row: Kenneth Midgley, John Mikolasko, Edward Mikulski. SECOND Row : George Miller, Joseph Miller, Jr., Leo Miller. THIRD Row : Robert Miller, Raymond Mills, Donald M . Millstone. FOURTH Row: Elmer Minckler, Peter Mistretta, Bruce E. Mitchell. F1FTH 59 �Row (left to right): Hobert Mohney, John Moore, Frederick W. Morgan. FIRST S1 coNn Row : Leroy W. Morgan, Jr., Leslie P. Morgan, H. Melville Morrison. FJRs1 Ro\X' (left to n~ht) : James Mowry, Daniel Mullane, J. William Murphy. Ro\\: William T. Murph}', Robert ray, David P. Needham S1 <.ONI> J Mur- Ro\X: Russell Nedcy, Soni,1 Nc:Jame, Clifford H. Nellisscn. THIRD hH Row: Dolores Nemeth. Robert Nculon, Arthur Neumann. 1n11 Fwi H Row: Ge:Ort(e Neumann, Ward A. New'clrn andcr, James Nichol. 60 �Row (left to right) : Roberta A. Noland, Gerald W. Norton, Harold Notew:ire, Richard Nusom, Leslie O'Brien. FIRST Row : James O 'Connell, John O ' Day, Yvonne M. O'Keefe, Donald Olver, Joseph G. O'Neill, Jr. SECOND Row: William R. O'Neill, Jr., William Orban<l, Leo Orzol, Nicholas J. Packs, Pasquale Paglia. THIRD Row: Robert Palcncar, Jr., Aliccmae Panza, Michael Pavlyak, Harold Pearson, Michael Pensak. FO URTH 61 �Row (left to right): Robert Perham, Francis Perkins, Du Wayne Pettyjohn, James Phillips, Louis E. Piwrilli. FIRST C. Pizzillo, Phillip Pouk1sh, Richard Powell, Robert Powell. St<.ONO Row: Franklin D. Pieplow, Mario Row: James E. Pratt, Malcolm Pratt, Robert Fletcher R. Preuss, Ralph H. Prince. THIRD J. J. Prekopa, Row: Charles Putrino, Peter Pyecha, William Quinn, Edward Radin, Louis Ravera. FouRTH 62 �1-'msT Row (left to right): Harold Ray, Albert Reed, Gerald Reif. SECOND Row: Ira Reiss, George Rejebian, Matthew Rennie, Jr. Row (left to right): Franklin Ressigue, Steve Ricciardi, Hyle V. Richmon<l. F 1RST SI.KONO Row: Otto Rieth, William Rigney, Robert Ritchie. Row: Broderick Roach, Camille M. Roach, Esther Robertson. THIRD Row: Tait Robertson, Warren l. Robinson, Robert Ro<lgers. FOURTH Row: Stanley Rogge. Madl}•n Romani, Barbara Rood. FIFTH 63 �Row (left lo right): George Rose, Leo Rose, Leonard Rose. FIRST Srco:-.:n Row: Nisse! Rose, Dic:trich Rosenberg, Edward Rosenberg. Row (left to right) : Joseph S. Rosenbloom, Floyd E. Ross, RicharJ Rounds. FtRST SrcoNn Row: Everett A . Rowe, Michael A. Rudik, Franklin Rury. Row: Robert Russc:ll, William Ryan, Walter Ryczko. THIRD Row: George R}'dcr, Anthony H. Sacco, Peter S.1dowitz. FOURTH F1rrH Row: John Salcmmc, Richard Salisbury, Stanlcv Salisburv. �FIRST Ro~ (left to right): Alfred Sanges, I. Thomas Saraceno, Edythe Scales, Theodore Scarinzi, Stephen Schaefer. SECOND Row: Rhoda Schaffer, Stuart Scheiner, John Schroeder, Edwin Schumacher, Abraham Schwartz. THIRD Row: Richard Scott, H elene Scully, Aysel Sea rles, John Sedor, M ichael J. SeJan. FOURTH Row: Monica Sema nek, Ernest Scrnecky, George Shamu lka, Eugene H . Shapan, Wi ll iam Sharpe. 65 �FIRST Row (left to right): Paul M Sheely. Wa lker L Sh<.rwooJ, John K. Shields, Joseph J. Shm<ler, Frederick Shipko. SECONO Row: J. Richard Singe:!, Norman Skeirik, Annc:ac Smith, George R. Smith, Sidney M. Smith. R0\1c: Lynford C. Snell, Jr, Max Sommerstem, Charles Sopoliga, Ralph Sorber, Richard Spearbeck. THIRD FOURTH Row: Charles Speich, John Spence, Edward Spring man, Walter Stanzel, Harry Stem. 66 �Row (left to rig ht ) : Michael Sternik, John Stewart, Charles Stoddard. FIRST SECOND Row: Jeanne Story, Richard Streb, Bernard Sullivan. FIRST Row (left to right): Charles T. Sullivan, Dona ld A. Swift, Wanda Swift. SECOND Row: Calvi n R. Symons, John Tallis, William F. T almadge. THIRD Row: Earl Tarr, Richard Taylor, Cyril Tegeler. FOURTH Row: Thomas Terry, Merrell Thallinger, Walter Thompson. FIFTH Row: Edward Throup, David Tillotson, Bernard T inkleman. 67 �FIRST Row (left to right): Gerald Toman, John Tompkins, Joseph Trabucco. ;ECOND Row: James Tras, Lewis Tripp, Sally Truesdell. FIRST Row (left to right): Alan Tucker, Leonard Turgeon, Richard Turner. SECOND Row: Ruth Tuthill, William Tuthill, Erwin Tuttle. THIRD Row: Robert Tybring, Richard Ulmer, Lorraine Valletta. FouRTH RO\'V': Gordon VanAtta, Reuben Van Bruggen, William f. Vanco. fIFTH Row: Marcia Moss Vanda, Franklin Van Volkinburg, Charles Mack Vegard. 68 �Ro\\ (kit to right) SJm ~f. Vi .1k I lmund Vitkus. Hc:inz Von PcchmJnn, M.1rdaje.111ne \\ .1gncr, fllwooJ \X J~OnC'r F1Rs1 S1 Yvonne \Vakeley. Joel H. Walker, Kenneth Ro\\ Walker, Harry \\'allace, Willi.im \X',dlrng COl'\D 'I HIRD Ro\\ : Rost Marie \X'abh, Don.dd \X'1rd, Emm.1 M \X ar· nc:r, Rid1ard Warner, \Xldlis Warnc:r Ro\x: (Lur Waterman, Gordon \\'.latk1r. s, Barbar.1 Webb, William Weber, Jr., John Wedge. Fou1t1H �FtRST Row: Irwin Weissman, Theodore Wenger, Grace Wheeler, Ralph W. Whittemore, Edgar M. Wilcox, Jr. SECOND Row : George C. Wilklow, Harry Williams, Mary Ellen Williams, Harold 0 . Wilson, Norman W. Wilson. Row: Frank Windisch, Douglas W. Wing, Samuel H. Winterstein, Harold B. Wood, Lee Woodmansee. THIRD FOURTH Row: Warren Woodworth, Mark F. Wynn, Orville R Yeager, Robert H. Ziegler, Richard S. Zinn, Jr. 70 �FIRST Row (left to right): John E. Zuidem:i, Albert Brown. SECOND Row : Byron Conroe, John Callahan. THIRD Row : James E. D exter, Albert J. Durland. FOIJRT H Ro w : C lement Joyce, Kenneth B. Latham. FIFTH Row. Jerome B. True. (TheJe p1C1111e1 were received a/fer this wus Jent to the printen) Jec/1011 71 �72 �73 �BACK Row. Mr. Hier, Stanley Gol<len, Jim Brown, Dave Garman, Ronnie Cuillerier, Bernie Garlock, George Neumann, Al Hanson, Bob Davies, Al Clemente, Annette Smith. FRONT Row: Mack Vegard, Sonia NeJame, Shel Davis, Jerry Gibbs, Helen Hudda, Dick Hamann, Norm Decker, Carlyle Hancock. The colonists of old were pioneers working the new fields for those who followed. It thus seems appropriate that this, the first yearbook of Triple Cities College, takes the name of those pioneers. "The Colonist" acquired its name as the result of a contest won by Gordon VanAtta. Originally, plans were made to publish at the end of the college's first year, but the technical difficulties involved made this inadvisable. In October, 1947, an active committee was formed to draft plans for the first issue. Shel Davis was elected editor, with Sonia NeJame as assistant. Jerry Gibbs handled copy and makeup, with Dick Hamann head mg advertising, Mack V egard, business manager; Helen Hudda, sport editor; and Bob Davies acting as managing editor. Assistance was given the committee by Miss Plankinton, Mr. Kimball and Mr. Hier, and with the help of a cooperative staff, the pictures and material needed to provide a complete record of activities at the college were gathered for publication. 74 �BACK Row: Mr. H all, Jim McHale, Tom Ivory, Otto Reith , Joe Rosenbloom, Fr.ink Resseguie, John I lin<ls, Joe O'Neill. FRONT Row: Art Brehm, John Fowler, Bob Kennedy, Tom Callahan, Miss Ivory, Ray Glazier, Leslie Morgan. Pfficm: neye<l to a conference of sc.hools hel<l at Syr;tcuse University. TC C students, representing Australia, mtroduce<l the Palestine problem to the agenda. . ....... RouE.RT P. KENNEDY Pre1ide11t ..... ......... . THO.MAS CALLAHAN ...................... _ Vice-Pre1ident Jo11N FOWLER .. ....... . .......... . Secretary .......... . R. BRFHM ARTHUR ......................... . .... Trea.s11rer D. HALL JOHN . MR Famlty Advisors . ·- .............. Miss ]1:.AN JvoRY Formed in the fall o f 1946, the International Relations C lub has been responsible for an active prog ram of movies, speakers, forum discussions and the sending of students as delegates to sever.ii confe rences. In April, 1947, IRC student delegates, represent· ing Belg ium in discussions, attended the Model General Assembly of the United Nations held at Swathmore College. This trip was followed by the "Danse de Nations" sponsored by !RC. In October, 1947, students attended the Herald Tribune Forum held in New York City. On another trip-to the Middle Atlantic Division conference of IRC clubs students observed the United States in action. At the end of the semester members jour- 75 �!laJ1it.t1JJ l/dm lnlJ tt:at lOn f!la6 . Students and faculty desmng a closer contact with the business community and an opportunity to discuss business topics-espec ially those subjects not covered in the college course-organ ized the ""Bus Ad" club in Decemb~r. 19-16. The purpose of the club was to promote and bring to the attention of the membership actual facts on general operations of business from competent sources. President . . ........................ STANLEY J . BACHMAN Vice-President ............................ Mti.x SOMMERSTF.IN Adt1ocate.... ............................. CHARLES SAPOUGA Treasurer.... . ............ ........... .... ROBERT CALI EN Publicity Director...................... .THOMAS LYNCH Secretary .. ...... .................... .............. LEO J. CARY Faculty Advuors .................. MR. BERTRAM BRODER ANO MR. RALPH SMITH A club constitution was formulated and several guest speakers presented. Frank Knapp, Assistant Treasurer of Endicott-John son, gave a talk on "'Credits and Collections." Robert Austin, Personnel Director of IBM, spoke on " IBM Personnel Policies." Eleanor Irvin, a member of the IBM Personnel Department, gave a lecture about "Application Letters." The club also sponsored movies, field trips, and Dean Budd, of the Wharton School of Finance, who spoke to the "'business ad" students. A Masquerade Ball held at the opening of the second semester proved a gala affair. The club's biggest surprise and greatest success was the Surprise Dance thrown in April. BA< K Row: George Shamulka, Herb Fry, Frank Elkins, Bill Weber, Herb Blanchard, John Tompkins, Edward Gavin, Bernie Garlock, Russell Howe, Thomas Gavin. SECOND Row: Robert Callen, Ralph Green, Joe Lire, Don Millstone, Bob Creveling, Bill Gullborg, Clement Joyce, Ronald Barber, Steve Kuratnick, Bernie Sullivan, David Tillotson. T111Rn Row: Jim Cohn, Joe Cerullo, Alan Ascher, Mike Brumer, Stan Golden, Hubert McCartl1y, Robert Holl, Ignazio Saraceno, William (rooks, Stan Bachman, Mr. Broder, Max Sommerstein. FRONT Row: Charles Sopoliga, Mario Pizzillo, Brod Roach, Owen Kroeger, Hank Kroeger, Abraham Schwartz, Kenneth Latham, Alfred Sanges. 76 �BACK Row: Mr. and Mrs. Jack Hall, Mr. and Mrs. Robert Kankus, Richard Scott, Clayton Hilliard, Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Gent, Mr. and Mrs. Charles Durham, Mr. and Mrs. Reed. SECOND Row: Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Johnston, Mr. and Mrs. Hubert McCarthy, Mr. and Mrs. Franklin Resseguie, Mr. and Mrs. William Crooks, Mr. and Mrs. William Hanak, Mr. and Mrs. Louis Jurena, Mr. and Mrs. Charles Auer, Mr. and Mrs. Llewellyn Burge, Mr. and Mrs. Frank McHenka. FRONT Row: Mr. and Mrs. Robert Fox, Mr. and Mrs. Vernon Elderkin, Dr. and Mrs. Van Riper, Dr. and Mrs. Friedlaender, Mr. and Mrs. Aysel Searles, Mr. and Mrs. Gordon Van Atta, Mr. and Mrs. Robert Wilson. President ............................................ AYSEL SEARLES Vice-President ............................ GORDON VANATIA Recording Secretary .............. MRS. CAROL D URHAM Treas11rer ...................................... RICHARD H . Scorr Faculty A dvisors ........ DR. HEIN.RICH FRIEDLAENDER AND DR. JOSEPH v AN RIPER The Golden Circle, when organized in November, 1947, was originally called the Married Veteran's Club. The re-christening climaxed a decision to extend the membership to non-veteran married couples. Lively pinochle and bridge tournaments, predance parties, dinner meetings, skating and bowling have led to the formation of new friendships among wives and husbands. In the spring of 1948, The Golden Circle sponsored a college dance for the benefit of its members. Not all the club's activities were social in nature. Committees assisted in solving the problems of housing, transrortation, cooperative buying, and other projects o mutual interest. At Easter, the club provided baskets for 150 children in the county orphanage. 77 �BACK Row: Jim Johnson, Daniel Emilio. Row: Jeannine Conklin, Barbara Rood, Barbara Webb, Keith Dunklee, Ed Epringman, Sally TruesJelL FRONT famlty Ad1 isor .... MR. ALEX G11..FI1..l..AN This small and select group, organized in the fall of 1946, was centered in the preparation and performance of compositions specially w ritten for double quartets. All periods of musica l development were represented in the compositions selected that year for performance. Although the main emphasis was on the larly English Madrigal and the Italian and European contrapuntal forms, their repertoire also included several American compositions in the folk and legendary styles. The Madrigal Singers were unable to grant all the requests for concerts because of unexpected changes of personnel. They hope to be able to meet all future requests with a well-rounded and complete program. 78 �Music Hath Clurms The Chorus and Glee Club were among the first groups organized at T.C C. Active support of the students, residents of the surrounding area, and faculty members, was soon en· listed. A wide range of American and European compositions was studied and performed by the Chorus. Thompson's "'Alleluia'" was the original composition performed by the Chorus. Later it presented .L full evening's concert in conjunction with the Gk-e Club at Maine, N Y. The major work performed publicly by the Glee Club was Elmore's 'The Prodigal Son."" with Keith Dunkke as b.1ritone soloist. At the rolk.~e Christmas assembly. it performe<l the Chorale from Bach's '"( hristmas Oratorio" and joined the Chorus rn .1 rendition of '"Alleluia. "' Jn the spring it repcate<l "The Pro<ligal Son" for the college assembly. BA< K Row: Wayne Anderson, Floyd Mangus, Bill Vanco, Bill Norton. Ralph Catane~c. Lo ren Gilliam, Will is Warner, Ed Springman. Charles Guernse}. Keith Dunklee, Jr,ing ( arroll. FRONT Ro\\ : H enry Jones. Jeannine ( onklin. 13arbara Rood, I IO\\ .1rd fa .rns, Pd<:r B.1rbone, Sally T ruesdell, Mari lyn Andrus, Nisse! Rose, Evelyn Armstrong, Barbara Webb. 79 �The first copy of the Colonial News rolled off the presses under the direction of Donald Sowter, Editor-in-Chief, and a practically all-veteran staff on November 22, 1946. In February of 1947, Owen Crumb was chosen Editor-in-Chi ef and Aysel Searles, Managing Editor. Notable stories du ring this "journalism era" were the expose of Elmer, the "tell-all columnist," and the account of the notorious "Miss Sally Kent ," who appeared in front page head lines in a local daily. Early in the fall of 1947, Editors Crumb and Searles relinguished their posts to Co-editors Tom Callahan anJ Ed Gildea. Under the Callahan-Gil dea regime many notable editori,tls appeared, with Miss Sara Cues '\, riting" the gossip column. In February, 19·18, a new staff, with Owen Crumb once again in the "slot," took over. Those members who had survived the fall term sat down for some swap shop talk at the regul.u banguet held each semester for outgoing editors. The News has been an instrumental factor in unify ing the college's rather dispersed student body. Through its pages the students have been able to keep in constant touch with all activities. BACK RO\X': Bill Jones, Shiriey Dawson, Jim JordaA, Grace Wheeler, Dick Ham,rnn, Bernie Garlock, Jim Carey, Harry Accurso, Bob Davies, Jim Brown, Bob Friend, Gilda Parisio, Jerry Gibbs, Shel Davis. FRONT Row : John Kar, Tom Callahan, Dolo1es G reen, Ed G ildea, Al Hanson, Helen Hudda, Barbara Rood, Annete Smith, Stanley Golden. 80 ��BAc K Row (left to right): Ht-rb C.allalun. John Spence. George Hemsohn, Cal Symons. FoutnH Row: R.dph ( .1tancse, llarry Accurso, Camille Roa(h, Charles Guernsey, ( het Buchanan, W.dter Thompson, B.1rbara Rood. T111Rn Row. Ditk Clinton, Elc.1nor Sullivan, Jim O'Connell, Ruth Tuthill, Vrncent Giarusso, Cmnrne Caknt1, Dirk Single. Si «>Nil Row Hank Jone~, Bob Bargltzi, Pat Lamb, Mike Btloi, John O'Connor, lh>b Buran, Mr. Maurino. FRONT Row: Dr. Ketcham, Anne Duda, Miss Atchley, Jean Thomas. 0 f/1ce1s: Presi,Jenl . . RcmFRT B:\RGETZI i' 1t1:·PreJJJt11t . ............. .... .. . MIKI BILOZ Si•crelury . . . ........... ........ .......... SONIA N1 JAME '[ft IJftrt!/' Kl·ITH Dl1'>:K!.EE f.mtll) A.lriso1 r ............. Y Knc HAM MR. FFRDIN'AND O MAl RINO DR. Rot>Nt Heated by the embt:rs from a pot bellied stove .ind frt<:d on rntft:e and douglrnuls, Le Cerde Fran lais, one of the first IJ.ngmgc dubs of T.C.C, was org.inized, its purpose- to adv Jnce an lppr<:uatio n of French ( ulturc. Meetings were gre.1tly diversified with the inclusion of le.:ttmcs by students and instru, tors, French n·tordings, g.une nights, and films, one of the outstanding of \\hich \\;\S " Mona l.is.i." A fr.1ture of the lir~t year's program was a pi(nic hdd at Joyte B.1rnc's country home. ln the spring of l'H R. " I a Ft:te <ks l"om," (The Feast of the.: Fools) \\,\S caml·J out in a typic.1lly French tr.1dition. mm· plcte with t.mdles. checkered l.1blcdoths, .rnd .1ltendcnts we.iring French berets. Tht• monthly newsp.iper, · Fkur de Lys," pub h~hcd in rrcnch .ind rn-cditcd by lhrb.ua Kessler .md Darhar.1 Rood. indudes dassroom ane<.:<lotes, c.1rtoons, and f.itulty m1.:~sag<:s. 82 �FIRST Row (left to right): Barbara Kessler, Betsy Huener. Dr. Heinrich FriedlaenJer, Dr. Rodney Ketcham, Inge Goldschmidt, Helen Scully, Joyce Barnes, Edythe Scales. SECOND Row: James Campbell, George Neumann, E<lwarJ Cern.1k, Ralph C10tanese, Richard Warner, Thomas Gent, OuWayne Pettyjohn, Robert Friend, George Heinsohn, Richard Ives. THIRE Row: D ave Merrilees, Vernon Fritz, Don Buffum, Dick Bastiano, Jules Finklestein, Homer Biggs. President ····································--·-·····- RICHARD IVES Vice-Preside11t ............................ ING E GOLDSCHMIDT Secretary ........................................ BARBARA KESSLER Treasurer .......................................... BETSY H UENER Faculty Advisor DR. HEINRICH FRIEDLAENDER The latest addition to the ever grow ing extracurricular activities of Triple Cities College was the German Club. Formed in January, 1948, this organization had for its purpose, the promotion of gooJ fellowship among students of the German language. Highlight of the semester's programs was the speech by Dr. Friedlaender on "Goethe, His Life and His Times." This talk was illustrated with songs by Kenneth Chertok and readings from " Faust" by Otto Reith. For the International Night affair, the club contributed a German Band and vocalists. An informal meeting was held late in the Spring at a German restaurant, to close out the year's activities. 83 �.!Jtallan- .eta/,.~. BA<.K Row : Eugene Bisignani, Tony Sacco, Mike Mazzei, Miss Fargnoli, Fred Conte, Peter Barbone, Ralph Catanese, Joseph Iannone, John Cary, James Johnson, Carmine Calenti, Conrad Ellner, Mr. Maurino, Nick Donatelli. FRONT Row : Jim Carey, Thelma Carey, Dennis Bottino, Margie Davenport, Remo Allio, Bob Bargetzi, Josephine Bottino, Dick Ives, Joe Bottino, Daniel Emilio, Vivian Cook, John Salemme. President ........... .......... JOSEPHINE BOTTINO Vice-President ........ .............. ... . .... RICHARD IVES Secretary ............................ . FLAVIO MANGERS Treamrer . . . ..... ... ....... . ROBERT BARGETZI Family Advisors .......... MR. FERDINANDO MAURINO Miss YOLANDA FARGNOLI A college precedent for language club newspapers was set by the Italian Club in publishing its newsette, "'II Crespuscolo" (Twilight), a monthly pubiication originated anJ eJited by Remo Allio. "'JI Circulo Italiano," was formeJ early in the first semester. Informal meetings were held with the purpose of learning the culturn l background of Italy. Progr.1ms consisted of speakers, skits. films and recordings of cl.1ss1Cal and semi-classical ltalian music. Dinner ml·etings in Ita lian restaur.mts, or "Sc.1mp:.1gntos" as the outings were c:.1lleJ, were supplementcJ b}' member entertainmen t. A movie was held in an Endicott theater in Febru.1ry the pron:cds of which \\ere used by the club for .rn ards to deserving ltalian students. 84 �Row: Mr. Rockwell, Rosemary o·connell, Tom Gillson, Bill Weber, Nisscl Rose, S:tm V1t.d1, R.tlph Catanese, Bob I3argctzi, Joyce M.irtin, Al I Ianson. BACK Row: M.ucia Vanda, Maria Jiminez, Eugene Bis1gnani, Bill Davies, Helen Hudd,t, Fr.uKcs Brees, Miss Fargnoli, Marge Davenp.irt. fRONT President. ... . ..... ........ .............. TOM B1sGINANI Vice-President ................................ BILL 0AVIF.S Treasurer ......................................... JOHN MALIK Serrelary .......................... MARIA JrMINFZ f ,1mlty Advuors ...... . . MR. HAROLD ROCKWELL ANI) Miss YOLANDA FARGNOLI Highlight of the I 9tf7 activities of the Spanish Club was a full course Spanish di nner al the Hotel Frederick, followed by Spanish entertainment and group singing in Spanish. El Cirrnlo Hispano was formed in November, 1946. by 1 group of Spanish students who wished to stimulate interest in our Good Neighbors. The first year's activities incluJcJ lectures given by Latm Am ericans living near the college, anJ La Pos,1da, .1 Spantsh P,1rty. The entertainment featured guitar pl.iying and songs by the club's local South American friends anJ the struggles of students and faculty with a Pinata. Latest addition to the club's activities is El Eco. a newspaper wntten in Spanish. Helen Hudd,1 and frances Brees edited this sheet of Spanish 1..hit chat 85 �BA<K Row: Robert Miller, Jim Jon.Jan, Bi ll Hotchkiss, Frank DeBenedittis, Dietrich Rosenberg, Anne Meade, Bernie Garlock, Ed Rosenberg. Jim Ctrey, Yvonne W,tkeley, Norm De<ker. SECOND Ro\\- . D.1, e G.uman, Doris Jones, Jorce Martin, Fr.1.nk Duntley, Dolores Green, Miss Chiarulli, C1.mdle Roach, Thelma Carey, P.wl DeLoren.w, Bob rrienJ, Vivian Cook, Bob Ritchie. T111Ro Rmx·. Merrell Thallingcr, George Miller, Jim Johnstone, Da\'e Tillotson, Al Durl.md. Pres11/ e/I/ • • • .• V1re-Prertde11/ ..... . Serrelt1r; Tre.1J11rer CA\1 IL LE RoA< 11 FRANK OUN rI .EY . DOLORES GREEN THELMA CAREY Org.mized before any sports schedule had been formu lated, this club Aourished from the beginning. W ith one of the largest memberships among schoo l attivities. th is g roup provided an outlet for student p.1rti(ip.1.tion in sports. The K. of C. a lleys in Endicott were used last ye.tr, "·ith the Alexis Smith team captu ring the ie.1guc title. Alley-men Knapik, DeLorenzo, Tinklernan, Johnstone and Friend spa rked this crew to a four g.1me m,1rgin over the Jo.rn D.ivis, Betty Hutton, and Lucille 13all teams deadlocked in second place. At .1 banquet held after the l.tst strike had been m.1de, the members of the dub received awards for thci r effarts for the 19.if 6 -17 se,ison. Members of the winning and runners-up squads, as well as individual winner~. received trophies. This ycar·s plans ca lled for a banquet to dose out the c.1mp.1.1gn. Trophies were handed out to indiv1du.d winners of Men's and \Xlomeo's hig h, sing le, trip le and high average. 86 �No longer were the basketball games of the Green and White accompanied by merely a din of voices and cheers. "Something new was added." With the introduction of a TCC Band, basketball 1-:ames took on the aura of what is commonly called "the collegiate atmosphere." All TCC Stokov. skis, He1fetzes, and Krupas (and hopefuls) were eligible for membership. Smee the band was comp.1r.1t1vcly new, activity '",1s !united to rehearsals within the spacious walls of "West Hall," and the noisy outings al the TCC basketball games. Howard Evans, .is~istant conductor, set to music the words of the school song >\rittcn by Mrs. Hopkins :Moses. With the: r,1pid growth of the school, this organimay one day reach S}'mphonic proportions. ~ation BACK Row: Howard Evans, Barbara M(Guire, William Gullborg, Claire Waterman, Ed Springman, Bill Norton, Stephen Schaefer, Herbert Blanchard, Harry Brigham, Jack Hall, ]. Alex Gilfillan, director FRONT Row: Owen Kroeger, Don Buffum, Lairy Lon:l.ind, Joyce Barnes, Jeanne Story. \ 87 �' -- . ' .._ ~-:,·~~J.~~- :. IF:.;~~"~ ::~.. : (Jq{,_o!JJal Pla1~!j .• 13AC.K Row : Edythe Scales, Shirley Dawson, Spero Arbes, Erwin Goldberg, George Heinsohn, Harry Ac- cu rso, Dave Garman, Tony Casarno, Annette Smith, Jerry Gibbs, Jeannine Conklin. Row : Torn MakrCl., Dave Merrilees, Sonia NeJame, Otto Reith, Dick Singe!, Dolores Green, Tait Robertson, Dr. Hasenpflug. FRON 1 Pre1iden1 _ . --·-·---·-----·--·---·----·-·- Orro K. REITH boring U-E High School, and the Players quickly Vice-Pre1ide11l ······--··-··-·--··-· ..... SoNv. NEJAME T rea.Jurer . _ ······-···--················ DAVID MERRILEES Secrelary .... .. ................. .... ..... RICHARD S1NGEL Fawlty AdviJorJ . . .. . ... MR. WAYNE fAAROW made plans for future performances. At the Spring Convention, Eugene O'Ncill's one act play, Ile, was the feature presentation, with Sonia ANO DR. MARGARET HASENPFLUG NeJame and Otto Reith turning in fine performances. With the presentation of the radio play, The Pfql Jo Overlhrow ChriJlmas, at the Oiristmas Convocation in 1916, the Colonial Players launched a schedule which was to give the student body dramatic entertainment, and the Players. themselves, valuable The annual award given by the P layers to two of its members for outstanding acting and participation in all group activities was presented to Sonia Nejarne and Otto Reith for 1946, culminating the dramatic group's first year of activity. !>tage experience. Harry Accurso, and a strong supporting cast Larry McGrath and Betty Oune starred in the featuring Monica Semanek, George Heinsohn, Sonia groups' next presentatjon, the three act comedy, NeJarne, Otto Reith, Tom Makres, and Eugene Shapan, rollicked through Kaufman and Hart's famous CJ,111dia. Under the able direction of Dr. Sidney Al bert, Cl1111d1a rnme to life on the stage of the neigh· 88 comedy, The Alan UVho Came to Dinner, in the fall �of 19-17, \\ ith a generous response from the audience inJicating the play's success. This play was Jirected by Mr. Wayne Farrow. l3enn Levy\ delightful fantasy, 1\l rs. 1\( 0011/ir,ht, \\ ith Dr. Marg,1 ret Hasenpflug directing, was st.1ged in March , featuring Sonia Nejame and Spero Arbes and a brilliant supporting cast. Throughout the year, memb.:rs participated ac tively at meetings, gave lectures on the theater, played recordings of Shakespeare and other classical productions, and presented several radio plays. 89 �BACK Row: Mr. Perry, Jim O'Connell, Frances Brees, Raymeta Chaffee, Shel Davis, Dr. Albert FRONT Row: Joe Meyers, Conrad Ellner, Bernie Tinklcman. President .. .... . .... .................... Vice-Pres1de11t . . ............ ..... AL BORNSTEIN JOSEPH MEYERS Program Chairman ................. PRANCES BREES Students of Aristotle, Plato, Descartes, Perry, and Albert who wished co air their own philosophical views as well as d iscuss philosophicai questions pertaini ng to religion, science, art, and politics, gathered for the first time on the evening of November 26, 194 7. A rap of the gavel and the Philosophy Club was a reality. Secretary .... . RALPH FOREST Treamrer ... ................... RAYMETA CHAFFEE h1mlty AdviJOrJ ... . . ..... OR. SIDNEY P. ALBERT AND MR. ORVAL PE.RRY Discussions led by such students as Conrad Ellner and Frances Brees were fuel for the philosophical flames of the clubmembcrs. Controversial questions turned out to be hig hly en lightening, and the real heydays came when Dr. Piper of Syracuse came south to speak to the club on ''Religion Values." He was followed by Mr. D.1yan, also an instructor on " the Hill," who spoke on the much discussed subjtct o f .. Existentia lism." TCC's own Dr. Brown addressed the club on "Shakespeare and Phi losophy." Club members ended the year with a much broader interpretation of the elements which determine the varied philosophies o f the world. 90 �;:-;F'jj~,,JO'l~;;·~:g;,c;e?y-~, - President -------------------------------------- MONICA SEMANEK Vice-President -------------------------------- DOLORES GREEN Secretary ---------------------------------------- SHIRLEY DAWSON Treasm·er ------------------- --------------------- ANNETTE SMITH Faculty Advisors ------ Miss ELIZABETH PLANKINTON AND MISS YOLANDA FARGNOLI The Pandoran Society, formed in the fall of '46 and originally called the Co-Ed Club, is the only girl's organization at T.CC and serves in the dual role of a service and social club. Two annual programs inaugurated by them include the "Hayride" and the "Carnival of Hearts." At the latter, a King and Queen are elected. This year's choices were Pat Lamb and Mike Biloz. The first Mother and Daughter Tea was held in December, 1947. A Bridge Party was sponsored with the proceeds going to a Czechoslovakian orphan girl. Pandoran was also active in raising funds for the Friendship Train, collecting food for Europe, assisting in the American Red Cross Drive and in the polio campaign. Pandoran' s spirit and cooperation exemplify the spirit and cooperation of the whole school. BACK Row: Inge Goldschmidt, Elaine Conklin, Edythe Scales, Ruth Tuthill, Jerry Gibbs, Jean Blesh, Helen Hudda, Jean Thomas, Martha McManus, Vivian Cook. FOURTH Row: Joanne D' Aprile, Frances Goodenough, Betty Jane Carl, Dorothy Dweres, Anne Duda, Marilyn Brown, Olga Lakomek, Dorothy Earley, Shirley Dawson, Marge Davenport, Joyce Martin, Miss Plankinton, Jeanette Bellinger, Sally Grass, Frances Midgley, Arline Michlik. THIRD Row: Eleanor Sullivan, Dorothy Walker, Rosemarie Walsh, Jean Fairbrother, Doris Jones, Evelyn Armstrong, Dolores Green, Carol Byrees. SECOND Row: Annette Smith, Rhoda Schaffer, Gerry Bloom, Marilyn Andrus, Murial Bishop, Julia Early, Sonia NeJame. i~RONT Row: Joan O'Connor, Maria Jiminez, Betty Clune, Nancey Frey, Pat Lamb, Monica Semanek, Grace Wheeler. 91 ... �President ................................................ JACK WEDGE Vice-President ... . .•.............. .......... BILL MAYER Sec-re1,1ry ................ .................................. ED ANTAL Treasurer ............................... ... JOHN HORKOTT Genernl Officer.......... . . ... . ]AMES LAUDER H istonan.. ....... .. .... .... .... WILLIAM TUTHILL Faculty Advisors ................. MR. (HARLES DIVINE Adelphi Social Group Approved By Perso nnel AND DR. T"hc third men" sod.ti org;ini1.a 1ion of 1 CC is nuw .i reality with "t he announceme nt of the formation ot the t\delphi Club. At a recent meeting, Jack Wedge w as elected presiden t. Bill !\.fayer vice-presidrnr Ed Antal ~~cretary, and John Horkott U'l!asurcr. Jim Ca rey will be general officer. Aiming to promote social. int<llectu.11 and cultur:il fellowship the members chose the name Adel phi !xc.iuse it connotes brother· hood . The Adelphians already have 3 ~cholar~hip program underw;iy. A scholM~hip to be given annually to an in,oming 1;tudent to help defray tuition expens~ bas been approved by the administrati on. and as soon as details have been completed, the fund will be administered by the ,ollege w. PORTER SWIFT One of the latest clubs to join the scene at TCC was the Adelphi. Formed early in 1948, it became the third men's social organ ization. Aiming at social, intellectual and cultural fellowship, members chose the name Adelphi with its connotation of brotherhoo d. A scholarship fund for incoming freshmen was established by the Adelphi. The award will be given annually to an incoming student to help defray tuitlOn expenses. The plan has been approved by the administrat ion, and as soon as details are cleared up, the fund will be administere d with the aid of the college. Plans for functions were in the tentative stage at the time this book went to press and could not be included in the club's activities. Row : Mr. Divine, Bill Mayer, Ed Antal, John Horkott, Dr. Swift. SrAnn: Hugh Jamieson, Jerry Flannigan, Bill Tuthill, Walt Stanzcl, Jr., Jack Wedge, Jim Carey, Claude Crawfor<l, Jr., George Ryder, James Lauder, James Clapham. BACK 92 �BACK !\ow: Bill Hor:,ey, Owen Crumb, Bill Bartow, Arnold Brown, Ernie Cinotti, Bob Barrows, Gus Haroldson, Tony Casamo, Jack Schroeder, Bob Clark, Herb Callahan, John Foreman, Jim Hargreaves, Ed Esserman, Mr. Smith, John Hinds, Dan Mullane, Bill Keal. SECOND Row: Bob Travis, John Salemme, Jim Brown, Harry Accu rso, Dick McCa llum, Chuck Abbey, Sid Smith, Art Manso, Ray Dechene, John Heimann, Camille Roach, George Neumann, Joe Manning. Bi II Kuchinskas. FRONT Row: Donald Millstone, Russ Lisson, Steve Zinn. Wallv Oates. Len Burns, Dick Streb. Officers: President ...... .. ........ ............................. Sm SMITH Vice-President ....................................... ART MANSO Secretary .......................................... CHARLES ABBEY Treasurer ............................................ RAY DECl-iENE Famlty Advisors ................... MR. ROBERT RUSSELL MR. JOHN BELNIAK In November, I 946, a group of 22 students formed the "Baccacia" Society to promote good fel· lowship and lasting friendships. football and basketball leagues, finishing high in both sports. A recent addition to Baccacia act1v1ty was the scholarship fund set up by the organization to help worthy individuals. The first award will be made in November, 1948. In an effort to dispel pre-exam depression, Baccacia presented their first annual Gloom Ball. January, 1947. In March, complete with corpse and coffin, they honored the Irish with Patty's Wake. At the beginning of the new school term, the organization put on the Shipwreck dance in true nautical style. An Academic Aid Committee for the benefit of its members has aided many a "gloom-ball" v1Ct1m. Not content with being scholars, the Baccacians have proved themselves in the field of sports. They arc actively represented in the college intramural 93 �------......... . ' ~ ;' J04 ·.., ' BACK Row: Bob Blesh, Jim McHale, Del Craft, Cal Symons, Mario Pizzillo, George Donovon, Frank CeIona, Jim Jordan, Joe Baxter, Art Neumann. SECOND Row: Wally Bouskill, John Kar, Al Reed, Harry Stein, John fowler, Bob Murray, Bill O'Neill, Charles Guernsey, Joe Meyers, Dick Powell. THIRD Row: Bob Kennedy, Art Brehm, Bill Everts, Dick Hamann, Bill Sharpe, Bob Carson, Charles Speich, Jack Keigher, Don Buffum, Harry Hafler, Mack Vegard, Mike Brumer, John Malik, Ed Koast, Tony Dyer, Paul Sheely. FRONT Row: Lennart Erikson, Bill Jones, Mike Biloz, Keith Dunklee, Bob Bargetzi, Ronnie Cuillerier, George Heinsohn, Jack O'Day. President ................................ ]AMES ]. MCHALE Vice-Preside111 ..................... LENNART N. ERIKSON Secretary ........ ............................ WILLIAM A . JONES TreaJ!lrer ..................................... FRANK P. CELONA f,JC1tl1y Advisors ....................... MR. JOHN D. HALL MR. FREDERICK J. HOLLISTER The second men's social fraternity to be formed at T CC appeared in October, 1947. The name Goliards was derived from a group of wandering medieval scholars in Europe during the 12th century. These scholars wrote songs and verse attacking the abuses and vices of the period and g lorified nature, wine, and women- all of which they loved ardently. The aims of the TCC Goliards included performing service as well as social functions. In November the club sponsored a successful European Relief Drive for cash donations and clothing. In January, a Maroon Key society was organized to play host to visiting ath letic teams. The Goliard's recreational activities have included a Christmas party to supplement the festivities of the Mistletoe Ball weekend, a post-exam night field trip, the college intramural basketball champs and a Mardi Gras dance. . 94 �MAROON Ktv: James D. O'Connell anJ Charles L . Speich, ro-rhai1111e11: Michael Biloz, Mayer Brumer, Frank P. Celona, George W. Dono\·an, Jr., John A. Dyer, anJ DuWayne H. Pettyjohn. The Maroon Key, an honorary society that operates in cooperation \\1th the college athletic department, was formed in January by the Goliards. Membership in the Key rotates within the club. The function of the Key is to entertain and assist visiting athletic teams. The Key meets v1s1tors, directs them to the college and playing areas, com pletes arrangements for their meals and local transportation, helps the players with their equipment, looks after their dothes, and takes care of them during time-outs in the capacity of towel custoJians and slicers of oranges. anJ to promote good will and sportsmanship by being of service to ··rivals" on the playing courts. Student programs similar to the Key are wellcst•tbl ished in many other colleges. The primary purpose of the Maroon Key is to establish friendship between TCC and other colleges BA<.K Row: Tony Dyer, George Donovan, Jr., DuWaync Pettyjohn, Mike Biloz, Charles Speich. FRONT Row: Mike Brumer, Jim O'Connell, Frank Cclona. 95 �96 �• 97 �Reversing Greeley's advice, Gene Welborn came east to take over direction of sports activities at Tcq The little man from the Hoosier state was appointed to his present position May 29, 1947. He succeeded Bob Redman who took over football at Bloomsburg State Teachers College in Pennsylvania. Genial Gene assumed his coaching duties here around the first of July, when he organized an intramural sports and recreational program for the summer session. He acts as instructor m physica l education and health along with his coaching duties. A graduate of Anderson High School, Mr. Welborn received his B.S. degree in physical education from Indiana University in 1941 and his M.S. at the same school. At the Hoosier College he was head trainer of the hockey team during his senior year and assistant trainer of the football and track squads for three years. Gene enlisted in the Navy in 1942. Serving fo r three years, he was discharged as a Chief Pharmacist in 1945, whereupon he returned lo the Banks of the Wabash to start his coaching career. Handicapped by inadequate facilities and forced to use public gyms and playing fields, Welborn has nevertheless endeavored to give the school a well rounded athletic program. With an increase in manpower and improved athletic facil ities, the little guy will give TCC something to shout about yet. 98 �- . · · CJ· earle' ,ee'cl ·· ;~:.··~/, . •, The 1947-48 cheerleading squad proved an invaluable asset to student interest at basketball games and pep rallies. Headed by Joyce Barnes, the squad ; ~- The squad did an exceptionally tine job of bolstering school spirit at the games and pep rallies this year. included Barbara Rood, Nancy Frey, Betsey Huener, Pat Lamb and Edythe Scales .. Milton Bernstein and Dave Merrilees brought the number of cheerleaders up to eight when they joined th~ squad in January. The cheers were developed with the aid of Mrs. Hopkins Moses who aho wrote the Triple C1t1es College song. The tune was then set to music by Howard Evans. Miss Plankinton acted as faculty advisor for the group. The original cheerlcading squad was formed in De(ember of · 15, when T.C.C. was entering the first basketball season in its history. The first sguad consisted of Stuart Scheiner. Mary Lou Curtis, Larry D,l\ 1s and Joyce Barnes. 99 . �Row (left to right): Bob Clark, Mgr., Bill Walling, Chet Buchanan, Al Bornstein, Shel Davis, Bob Isban, Pete Sadowitz, Gene Welborn (Coach). FRONT Row: Dick Herzer, Ed Radin, Pete Biloz, Dick Powell, Joe Ludka, Jim Heavner. BACK Despite the return of seven lettermen and five 82-35. The Oneonta collegians had too much speed J-Vs, plus a new coach, the Colonial Cagers had a and reserve strength. rough second season in intercollegiate competition. Powell, TCC captain, was the game's high scorer Sporting a very respectable 7 won and 3 lost record with 14. Surprisingly enough, bick from last year, the local hoopsters found themselves pitted against teams of high calibre throughout their 17 game schedule. As a result, Coach Gene Weiborn's charges were only able to cop four decisions The Ithaca Frosh outlasted the Colonials in a high , scoring tilt at Ithaca, and won out, 79-70. Isban and Powell paced the Wellborn men. while dropping thirteen. Poor practice conditions and fre<juent injuries to key players played havoc in The smooth clicking Colgate Frosh spoiled the team's home debut, by taking another high scoring hampering the Green and White's efforts. contest, 93-75. Weak defensive play hurt the locals. An impressive Hartwick quintet rudely jolted the locals in the first game of the 1947-48 campaign, 100 Isban and Powell once again supplied the scoring punch for the Green and White. �...--~J.e- ---~ "~ Two Points Bert's Boys Victory number one of the season was chalked 70-24, and the Cornell J-Vs, 68-52. Against Cornell, up against the Scranton J-Vs, 32-28, in a game the locals found themselves without the services cf marked by rough play. Heavner was high man wilh Powell, but nevertheless, managed to stay on even 13 points. terms with the "Big Red" until the final quarter. The Scranton game was followed by successive The bad breaks which seemed to plague the squad los:;es to State Tech, 41-39; Cornell J-Vs, 51-34; and all seo.son reappea red in the second Scranton game, the Syracuse frosh, 75-44. The Orange men, sparked when the Miners won out in the closing seconds of by sensational John Kiley, proved to be the Green the game, 35 -33, after TCC Jed all the way. and White's toughest opponent all season. Swish! The opening round of the "Battle of the Extension Schools" was won by TCC, when they edged out Utica College, 62-58, on the Vestal High hardwood. TCC grabbed an early lead but had to fight off a strong Utica rally in the closing moments of the game. Playing at Wilkes College, the Colonials were nudged out, 34-28. Then followed defeats by Ithaca frosh again, 5 3-46, the undefeated Syracuse Frosh, 101 �Battle Under the Boards Hyle the Human Adding Machine! On the Bench Utica college evened the count by beating their fellow extension school rivals, 77-64. Playing without Heavner and lsban, the Green and White managed to grab an early lead and held it until the final quarter. Joe Ludka, recent addition to the squad, led the loser's attack with 20 markers. In the best game of the seaso1-1, TCC dumped their local rivals, State Tech, 45-44, before a large crowd on the State Tech court. The victory snapped a Jong State Tech winning streak. Pete Sadowitz, with his fine play, plus 11 points, sparked the Colonials, but it was Bill Walling who clinched the victory with a foul shot in the last 1 S seconds of play. Whew! 102 �Hook Shot Rebound Back home again, Welborn's five ltcked Wilkes College, 58-50, with Powell, Lu<lka, Heavner, and Bornstein all hitting the double figures. The .final game of the season found the wellbalanced Colgate Frosh team victorious in a 62-1 ·1 walkaway. The bucket seemed to have a lid on it that night for the Green and White. Despite the losing season, Captain Powell, Bob. Isban, Jim Heavner, Joe Ludka, Bill Walling, Al Bornstein, Ed Radin, and Pete 5.ldow1tz performed Lay-Up admirably, many times against insurmount.1ble odds. 103 �Row (left to right): Ed Mikulski, Tom Gilson, Bob Dickerson, Bob Gallagher, Bob Koloski, George Horkott, Frank Furman, Herb Callahan, Art Rybak, Jack Schroeder. FRONT Row : Mike Buran, Danny Semels, Jim Maynard, Don Axelrod, Al Hansen, Chet Fish. BACK George "Spud" Forbes, instructor at Union- the curtain raiser. Hartwick jumped to a quick lead Endicott High School, was appointed track coad1 in the dashes and distance runs, but the Green and early in March, 1948. The Niagara University grad- White roared back in the field events and narrowed uale took over a squad that dropped four meets last the gap. 'W ithout big George Horkott in action, season. however, the Colonials missed first place in the shot put, and that was the margin of victory for Hart- April of 1947 saw T.C.C. inter-collegiate track competition for the first time. Twenty-five men an- wick. Final score: Hartwick 55, T.C.C. 53, Oneonta State 8. swered Coach Redman's call to .he cinder paths. On May 7, The Colonials traveled to Utica to The Hartwick Indians and Oneonta State Teach- meet a powerful Mohawk team. Handicapped by ers College squads invaded T.C.C. on April 27 for lack of depth, T.C.C. was overpowered in the run- 104 �t'I .. ning events. Again the Green an<l White field team le<l the way for the locals, scoring in the shot, discus, javlin and pole vault. Final score: Mohawk 92, T.C.C. 29. Jn a return meet with Hartwick and Oneonl.1 at the teacher's field, the Colonials battled Hartwick through a cold drizzle only to have the Indians squeeze out a 54-53V2 triumph. A strong, well-balanced Sampson squad romped to a 95-27 victory as the Green and White closed out a disappointing season. The squad worked under extreme handicaps. Lack of depth in the running events, and lack of a full time coach hampered the locals. With the addit1on of a full time track co.ich, prospects for the spring season should improve. 105 �BA<.K Row (left to right): Bob Redman (coach), Art Kalliche, Carmine Kibbler, Jerry Toman, Tom Terry, Russ Lisson, Bob Bargetzi, Leo Cary, Pete Macao, Bill Walling. Bill Curtis (manager). FRONT Row: Vince Miniccucia, Jerry True, Dennis Bottino, Mike Pavlyak, Torn Bisignani, Ted Scarenzi, Larry Sifflard, Carmine CaJenti. T.C.C. 4 .......................................................... Utica 1 T.C.C. 5 ·········---····-········-··············-········· Bucknell 4 T.C.C. 8 ......................................... Hartwick 8 (tie) T.C.C. 7 ·················--···-····-····---·····-···-····· . Colgate 10 Rain and snow were the leading battery mates 9 at Johnson Field, when the Green and White met for the 1947 baseball season. Time and again games Utica College, a fellow off-spring of Syracuse Uni- were postponed or canceled as the elements and not versity. A sensational pitching performance by Pete the home runs made the headlines. "Neither snow Macao, who fanned 14 and allowed only five sca:ter- nor sleet nor rain" hamper the postman; but TCC ed hits, enabled the Redmen nine to walk off the baseball found the going a little rougher. victor, 4 to 1. The first wind-up of the season took place May 106 Art Kalliche, Colonial right fielder, scored the �first run in TCC baseball history in the second inning. Calenti and Terry started making it a habit when they dented home plate with two more runs in the third frame. Bucknell College was victim number two for Macan as the Colonials won a 5-4 decision in 10 innings. The ace right-hander rebounded from a threerun bombardment in the third canto to rack up 15 strikeouts and showed superb control in the clutches. When Kalliche slammed a line single to right scoring Calenti and Walling, the men from Endicott were only one run down. Then in the ninth, Coach Redman called for a "squeeze play," Macan's sacrifice bringing home Kalliche with the tying run. Tom Terry, Colonial first sacker, blasted a single to center to knock in the winning tally in the tenth. A free-hitting slugfest against Hartwick at Oneonta ended in an 8-8 tie after 10 torrid innings. The game was called because a high school contest was slated for the same grounds. After four other games were called off because Spring was a little late in coming that year, TCC lost its final tilt to Colgate, 10-7. As this book goes to press, Gene Welborn had just made his initial call for 1948 baseball aspirants. An eight game schedule is planned. 107 �· /.ennlJ ~ .. :.· Row (left to right): Sam Freeman, Ed Shoemaker, Hyle Richmond FRONT Row: Dick Strickland, Jule Michel, Jack Lewis. Joe Rosenbloom. BACK Hampered by the lack of " noonday sun," TC.C's first intercollegiate tennis team compi led a won two, lost three record for the season's net play. With rain limiting pre-season pract ice to three days. the Colonials were whitewashed in their first match with Hartwick College, 7-1. Only Dack Strickland was able to win against his opponent. With Strickland and Jack games and List services, the edge out Utica College, 3-2. for this match, and results wisdom of the move. Lewis exhibiting steady TCC' ers rebounded to Positions were shuffled v.ere indicative of the The sc:iuad showed the temper of 1b 1mpro,ement in its second meeting \\ ith Hart\\ ack. After the score h:iJ been tied at three-all, the Iroquois won the two fin.ii p.urings ,1nd the match, 5- ~. A second '1ctory over Utica and a 6-2 loss to Bucknell rounded out the season\ schedule. The: sax ktt<:rmen were: Datk Stnckbnd, Jack LC\\ as. Joe Rosenbloom, Julie M1thtl, Hric Rich mond, .md .un hceman. Rosenbloom, Richmond, and Machel returned this season. 108 �UA< K Row (left to right) : Danny Semels, Leslie M ori.;.tn , Ji m Johnstone FRONT Row: Richard Clinton, Fred Sangc~. Dick Mer(C:r, Bill B.tkcr The 19·1- T C.C. golfers, although hampe:rcd in pre se,1son practice by nun, sno", and wet grounds, holed out a ). 2 won-lost tally for the round o f games. It was till best T.C.C. tc:am record in 1947 spring sports. T ( C golfers overpowered Hartw1Ck College l 5 ~ 2 -2 Y2 .tt home, on the E. J. course, and "as agam vi(torious l2 6 over H artwi(k on the Oneonti Golf course. T.C.C. outclassed the Utica Coll ege sextet 12~ 2 21/2 m J match played du ring a cold driving rain on the home E. J. course. Both losses we.re at the hands of a crack tc:am from Cortland State Teachers College coached by Tony Tesani. George Mercer and Fred Sanges were T.C.C.'s two top men and bore the brunt of the teams' att.1ck \\1th thei r consistently good golf. they scort"d in the 70' s. 109 More than once �loacli Voot!tall -- Row ( k·ft to right) : Al Bormtein, Dick Herzer, Bob F ricnd, Bob Isban, Shel Davis. FRONT Ro\\: · John Bilos, Mike Biloz, Jim Heavner. BM K T.C.C followed the trend of other post war colk:ges with an increased interest 111 sports. September, Rodman House subdued the Roses 18 to 6 and the Barrels edged out Villanova 6 to 0. 1917, saw the formation of an eight tc.:am touch football league undl'r thl' supervision of Gene \Xfelhorn. e\·eral members o f the te.1ms mt:l amI atIopted Every game brought forth a new star, but "Merccr and Co." continued to shine throughout the sea-· son along with Terry of the Ghosts, Richmond of a ~et of rule~ s1mil.ir to s1x-m.1n footb.dl rules. Rodman House, Biloz of the Gamecocks, and CallaIn the opening g.1me the G.1mecork~ downc.:d the han of Baccacia. Ghosts 2 l to 6 under the lc.1Jership .ind p.ming of Al "Bullet" BormtC'in. In the other g.imes of the opening round Baccacia defeated the Cits 21 to 6, 110 The G.1mecocks and Baccacia domin.ltcd the league. It was the game of the year when the two �undefeated teams met. "Mercer and Co." were rushed continuously by the charging Gamecocks line but were unable to make much headway. \X/hen the final whistle sounded the Gamecocks emerged victorious by handing the Baccacians a 34 to 0 setback. At the end of the season Dick Mercer emerged with a scormg total of 7-i points. In second and third places were Mike Biloz of the Gamecocks and Tom Terry of the Ghosts who garnered 46 and 36 respectively. Each member of the Gamecocks was presented with a gold medal at the end of the !>eason. 111 �9t. Va;cJit _fiaJlcet6a/l L -· BACK Row (left to right): Gene Welborn (coach), Shel Davis, Ralph Linnell, Julie Michel, Bob Oark. Row: Chet Buchanan, John Bilos, Frank Pieplow, Raymond Mills. FRONT TCC's J.V. baskr eers faml little better than their big brothers, winning five an<l losing eight. Schapiro's, the J-V didn't hit winning ways until they stopped State Tech 37-32 and a close 35-33 victory over the Vestal Legion. Suffering defeats in their first three encounters against Hartwick College J-V, Baccacia group, and Playing the Utica College J-V before mid-year vacations, the men from Lincoln Ave. suffered a 38-32 defeat. 1n the next outing, they swamped the Wilkes J -V, 45-28 with Pieplow racking up 11. St. Anthony's stopped the locals 44-36. Vestal Leg ion reversed an earlier decision, winning 54-50. Mills with 12 points was high for T.C.C. John Bilos sunk 19 points in a losing battle i;.gainst Utica College J -V, 47-45. In a game played at State Tech, the Green and White repeated their early season win by a 41-35 triumph. In the final regularly scheduled game, the Colonials, led by Davis with 14 points, again bested the Wilkes J-V, 57-44. In the first annual affair between the junior varsity and the winner of the school intramural basketball league, the Champion Goliard five came from behind to whip the J-V 47-44 in a thrilling last minute drive. 11 2 �...9nt'camutal ll/iJlcet6all ' The Goliard cage quintet clinched the intramural basketball championship with a well earned 38-27 victory over the third place Wolverines in the final game of the season. The Goliards were without the services of their ace, Joe Rosenbloom, but the smooth working combination of Biloz, Brumer, Bletchman, Cripps, Heyman and reserves Bargetzi, Craft and Symons were more than enough for the opposition. In the game against the Colonial J.V.'s the Giliards proved their ability as champions by staging a last minute rally to overtake the TCC Yearlings 47-44. Runner up to the Goliards was Baccac1a with six wins against one loss suffered at the hanJs of the Goliards. The remaining six teams were the Wolverines, Ramrods, Ramblers, Stone Crushers, Dribblers and Independents who finished in that order. 113 . �11 •1 ��Brook's Bliss First Edition Spanish Clubbing Ou r Campus (Snow Job) Photo by H.irrington 116 �Punch W ithout J udy Cheers Introducing John K. P. Zo What IVO 1 17 �It's Been a 1-Ia.rd "C Clirnates Are ... Brick Wall w·inter Uncle Ed 118 �Triple Sillies Student Sandwich C. A. R. E . Chamber Gastric 119 �Party Posting ( hest Another Student Boom Town la Rockwells 120 �Uncle Tom's Cabin Round Top -.... Wreathed 10 Non Campus Mentis Smiles 121 �First Man, First Year Last Man, Last Year College Reception The Following Men ... He Was H er Man .... 12.2 �Printer's Mistake Keep Off the Grass Lit for Christmas One of His Bad Days Dance Time 123 �Moving Up Day Smile Pretty Mammy Choo-Choo Destruction 124 �Food for Thought Platonic Study S'no-Fun Campus on the Pampus Blueprinters l25 �Pre-Fab Lab Final QuMter, Final Minute 126 �Research 'fhe Boys Grass CJ ass 127 �128 �129 �niloz. M icha<'! Hi loz, PPtcr Bishara. Joscr>h Bishop, Ru>1.-wll Abbey, Chnrlei< C. Abbey, Dorothy n. Abdallah, F'rcd Acrurso, Harry Ace, I.anninf( E. 118 North 2nd St... Mcchnnksvi lle, 703. Ilroad St., Endicott, 160 Ouk St... Rin1ehamt.on, 68 Valley Road, Scotia, 109 B<.'vicr St., Binghamton. N. N. N. N. Adams. Roy J. Agann. Vivian A1...-udo, Rnl1>h Ahml'd, 1'ofik Alcxnn<ler. V/ilma 42 LuKk St.. J oh nson City. 41 Ilr<>nd Ave .. flinghnmt.on, 62 Cott.nJtc Sl.. Middletown, 114 Laur<'I Ave, llinghnmt<>n. 97 Harry L. Road, Johnxon City, N. N. N N. N. Y. Y. Y Y. Y. Hlanehard, ll<•rlu•rt. W. Blt•sh. J<>an Ble•h. Robt·rt lllt•f.<'hmnn. Sherman Blinn. Hollund Alford, Donald A llnrd, Joseph Allio, Jo"oJ>hinP Allio, &mo Aloi, Carmello 3n Tremont A\'C'.. Ilin>rhnrnt.on. 161:1 RiHrvi1•w Drive. ~~nclirott. 1001 Brund St.. ~:ndkott. 1206 North St.. Endkott. 203 N. Nantieok<• A\c .. Endicott. N N N. N. N. Y. Y. Bloom, Irvin~ Y. Y. Y. Hogu.r-t.. Wc.w..;l <.•y E. Uomharcl. Allan J. Bond, Selma E. 13 C<>lumbin Ave.. Middletown. 778 Chenango St .. lli ni:hamt.on, 553 Chenan>ro St... nin.chamt<>n. 171 Main St., Binf(hnmton, lR Thompson St.. Hinithamton. N. N. N. N. Y. Hornst<'in, Alfr<'<I Y. Y. Y. Bottino, l ><•nnis .Uott.lno, Jo~eph Bot.lino. Jrnwr>H 11<" N Y. llouskill, Walla<' <' R. 162 Helen St.. Bin1<hamvrn, South Cherry SL.. Poughke<•r>•i<'. Box No. i n9, Middletown, 317 [•'rnnt St... Owego, 26 \" C r:indall St .. Binghamton. N. N N. N. N. Y. Bove~. Martin Y. Bowdish. Wnyn<.· Y. Y. Y. llows(•r. Rol><: rt Boyce. John Anclc•rfwn. Wayn~ Andrus, Marilyn Andrews, Ruth Anvlc. Mildr<'I Anhou.:-;c, Freel Antal, Edward A. Ant.unako~. GC"OrS.~C' API><'. Rolxort ArhC'K , Spero Arm i-.troruc J,i;\.<.'lyn Arrnslron1e. MNtd Arnold. Wall•·•· Arnold. Wt.'Sl(•y A Mrht·r. Alan A,h, Chnrks Ash, Ow<•n Atth~ani. R o tx•1·t Attisani. Virn:enL Auc•r, Charlos Avt:disinn, .MichaC'I Avery, Ethel Ax!'lrod. Donal1! lhH·hman. St.anlt•y J . Buk ..·rmttn., fo~c..lwi n Banta, John llnrbt?r. Ronald Barborw. P<•t('r llnrf.!'t.llfd. Rnb•·rt Barm•s, KR Y. Y. Y. Y. N. Y . B1~ignani. 11.=ugenc Blo<1m. Brink, Jack M. Llnll.On, Allan T. B rown . Albert B rown, An n Loui~c Brown, Arnold M. D<>RuylPr. N. Y. 117 Grand Ave.. MiddleUJ\\ n. N. Y. 22 On<rn1la1rn St .. Johnwn City, N. Y. B rown. Whilnc.·y Point.. N ,JO)'l'(' Jamt..~t.ow n, Y. 1:rn Euchd A ve .. Hnrlo\\, \\'illinm 220 Pomand\•r Road. Min<•oln. N . Y. 207 M.lin SL, Maybrook. N. Y. 110~ Moni·oc St.. Endkott. N. Y. 62 Huntin1:ton Sl.. Lowell. Mass R . ll. I, Chcnan1<0 Forks. N . Y. Ua.t.tistn, llolJ<•1·t nuxtt.•r. Jo-..t.·ph Beach, Fn:rnk B<•all. Jo;d\\ard 'i·W Chc.•nnnK<> St.. Bin~hamtun. N. Bt}nn, John lh.•t>rs. GPor..:\• Bt· Ga~sc. Brue~ K. lkllinit<·r. Jeanett<'. L. Bl•ruh.• r, Danil•l Bt•ni, Roh('rt ll<'rR. Paul C. B£>rnhnu<.•r. F.dward Ur-f"n~tl•in, Milton Jie,l, Carol llid,H•ll, Ronald Hi~gs, Ilom(:r Hihr. Jnml''S Ililos, John, Jr. l~I Brow1'l, Jante!:J W. Brungcr. Y. l{<'<f Cn"<·k. N. Y. P<•nrl St .. V"stal, N . Y. ii Knt..•clnnd Ave., lhn1-rhamt.on, N. Y. 272 Main St.. Johnson City, N. Y. Rewey Av~ .. Ncwark Vatlt>y, 912ti 90th St.. Woodhaven, 25 Dayton Sl.. Johnson City. 24 Berkley St .. Johnson City, 4 A11nctle Ave .. UinJ.thamton, Tioga Center. 700 J\lnin St .. John'°n City. Gn...,n. Howard Ave.. Bin1<hamton. 16 Hill A,c., ~:ndicott. N. Y. N J. N Y N Y N Y N Y gt., BinJ~hamt.on, N. Y. Butler, Ed"ard Jo'. Llyct'li, Carol Cuin. M.arilyu N . Y. Catabrisi, Dominit·k Caldwell. J oseph A. Calt>nti, Carmint.> J. Bin1~hamton, 1701 Muin St.. 601 North St.. 2121,:, t.ilwt'ly 11.,.,... 2107 Wat,;on B lvd., 5 HAJK<.'r:i, Av<.•.. N Y. r:nctkot.l. r:nt11rntl, Endic" tt. r:nd1cott. J.;ndicoll, N. Y N. Y N. Y N. Y. N Y 210~ Watson Blvd .. r:ndicot.t. N . Y. 400 llannnh St.. r:ndicott. N. Y. Buran. Rob.> r t llurdick, F:Ji,alk·th Burns, Lt'Onard l). N. Y. N. Y. 108 Hom•· St.. Kinl{~tun. N Y. 31 Tallnrnn St., Oswc"lto. N. Y. 120 L<x1mi. Av<· .. Yonkcn;. N . Y. Buffum, IHniald Buran, Jm.;t•ph Buran, Mh•h aitl !lush, A rnul<l Bu~ino. Orlando N. Y. N . Y. N. Y. 264 Jo'mnt. St., llin1ehamt.on. N. Y. 14 Fulh•r Roa<l. llu<'.h:uw,n. Cht·ster lluohl, Ja1·k N. Y. 130 ~:dwarct~ I Mill St... Gr~'C·nt". 24 linker St.. ,Jo hnM>n City, 2 Annette A v~ .. Binghamton. 2·1 Bnk<'r St.. John,un Cit y. 3 13 K r:d wa r d St.. " ndi cott, Charil~ Callahan, )(,•rlk-rt Cidlnhan. John Y Y Y. Y 44 1 Front St.. Ow<•1<0. N Y . 1410 Kt•Y e• AV<'., Sch<·1wt·tady, N. Y . R. D. l, Adum, , N. Y. 111ompson. Pa. 3 Elberon Plact'. Albany. N. Y. Buccift•rro, Vin<"t'nl J. Byron. H.ol>l'rt Cnbrcra, Chal'lC'~ T . N. Y. N. Y. N . Y. Y R. 0. I. Oneida. N. Y 312 S. Liberty AH·.. r:ndicott. N. Y 30 r: Jizabcth St....John&111 City, N Y Nancy N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. N. .Y 504 Flor.•nt'<' St.. gndicot l. N Y l n s.~<·~o ll St, Philadt.•h,hrn, Pa 1$7 Crary A v<•.. lhn1<hamton. N . Y Hrown<'. Clifford Brum\•r, Muyor N. Y. Y. SOll Mounutin ViC'w llriv.,, hndicolt.. N. Y IOG JW,,.cvcll Avt•.. r:nd icoll. N. Y David H. H. Marylin Jao k U. James L. Jo~wphin~ Y. 1~ 1 7 1802 Ddawar<' St.. S<·ranton, Pa. 30 RiKl•·Y l'lae<-. Nt·w Rochell<'. N . Y . ::o Rish·y Place•. N<•w IW<-hcll<'. N. Y. 29 125th St.. T r oy, N . Y. 45 Jurvis St.. llinghamton, N. Y. B rown, B rown. B r own. Brown. N. Y. N . Y. Conn. N . Y. 405 Chancellor Ave .. Nt•wark. 15 Seward A vt.~ .. 1<:11tiw<.>ll, 2 18 Jtobbl<• A vc• .. r:nd1cotl. 15 S•wurd Avt•. , 1-; ntfw<•ll, 54 Hunt. Av•·.. llamburi:. Y. Y. Y. K. D. I. Wult.on. N. Y. Br<'<:S, Frances F Brehm. Arthur R. Brcw<•r, Hob.>rt C. Br<•w<•r. Wilbur l. l! r igham , Harry W. N. Y. M uss. N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. 30 Vullt•yvi<·w St.. Onmnla. 504 Loder Avt•.. Endicott. 10 Lincoln A\"c•. J:o:nchc-ott. 1650 Chun<'I St , N~w l!avc•n. 376 Fin<t St.., Newbut1'h, 4 Stoneboro. l't•nn~ylvania 219 M11in St.. Bin1:hamton. N. Y. 4·1 Fox St.. Owci:co. N. Y. 21 Homer Ave .. Lat·chmont. N Y. 61 Leroy Sl., llin1:hamton, N. Y. R. D. I. N<•wark Valley, 5G Ocean Ave .. Salem. 144 Pinnacle ltoad. ltochcster, 132:l Ditrnn., Ave.. Brooklyn. G Eliza beth St.. llin1<hamtun, N. N. N. N. N. 4 En.<t. Av<•. Uinl!humton. N. 3 Easl Ave .. Uin•?hamt.on, N 10 Full<'r !load, llinl!hamwn. N . Hru,ht.on. N. 11 Clark St.. V<'Stal, N . Htl'(;.kinrj<lKe, Phi lip A . Htirrnws, Rol.M.>t l Bn'.:it.iRno, Hichunl GC'r:ildin~ 16 Hi ll Av<'.. Endioot.t., 16 Hill Ave.. r:ndicott. Highland Ave.. Bim:hamt.on , Jam<'>< St... Ct•P<' Vincent. 411 Juek110n Av<'.. r: n dicot.t, 4:12 f-"'ront St .. Owt.·'-~o. N Y l'ia l'rosped. St.. Bin.:harnt.on, N. Y. 188 Conklin Ave .. llinghamt.on. N. Y. 21~ W!k~hington AH .. ~:ncticott. 107 Arthur Ave .. Endicott. 49 Murray St .. llin.chamton. 17 llroukd alc Place. Rye, 121 r~rie St .. Owtogo, :n N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Conklin !toad, Conklin. N. Y. 11 Garlit•ld Av~ .. Endicott, N. Y. Ou le he~ A \"l'.. l'oughkcC'p?iic. N . Y. 4:l Cla1·k St., Vraminghnm, Ma-;~. 315 Jackson, Ave., Susqud1anna, Pa. �1224 Ave. "V". Brooklyn, N. 2 Sand St., Afton. N. 32-1 Robbie A ve .. Endicott, N . 61 El·li·ed1t<' St.. Ilini:hamto n. N . 5 Cnth<'rirw St.. V<'~Lal, N Callahan. Thomas G. Callen. Rebert J. Callro. Alfonso Campbell. Clarence E. Campbell, Elwood Carc.•y, Jim Ca1ey. John J . Ca>amo, Anthony R. Caster ton. Clifford Catanese, Ralph R Cecilian. Janw . Sr C~!onn., Cr<'\(·lini:, Jt11bert Critn>..,, Jo l'J) r Cronin, Jame~ R G7 Uc>t-•th<H'<'n St., Uinghamt.u n, N . Y. Tully. N Y. 51~ Monti:omn y St.. M idd letow n, N. Y . 408 lkthl<·h<'m l'ik<', l'hilnddph in, Pa. ~ Fn•lcrick St., J ohnson City, N Y. Carl. ll<'t!Y J <'nn Carlton . Gror1te 0. Carroll, Irving Cnn;on. Robert Car y. Leo Frank CnM>k .... Willium Crosby. Th<"Philu• A. 156 West !14th St.. N<'w Yo r k City. 11 Florl:nce Ave., Binghnmto n. 1 Orchard St.. Sufkrn. 2538 Harton Ave., i:il-ht•n•'<'llldy, 13~ llnH1k•lnlt• Av<• .. IW.·h<'<tt•r. N N. N N. N Y. Crumb, Owt·n Y. Y. Y. \ruty, R. D. I, F:ndicott, 903 North St.. Endi <"oll. 125 Ilnkn St... Johnson City. 10 Church St., Ilinglrnml.o n, Maple A ve .. N l'wn r k Valll'Y. N. N N N. N Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Ccrnnk, Edward Ceru llo. J os<-1>h S. Chaml)('rln in, J ohn Chambt:da in. Philip Champne~-. Gordon C. 63 Broad St., Binghamto n, Chapmnn, Ft·un<'is 1':.dwarcl 37 C. F J . nlvd.. Johnson City. Chai.muck , Donalt! 41 3 Arthur Ave.. t; ndi«otl. Chermak, Eu1ten• JI. it I Walton Aw .. N<•w York City, Ch.-rt.ok. Kt•nn•l.h 634 Jlrondway. Pat<•r on, Che~t,•r, El hot S. Cino tti, Ernest Citron, Martjn Clapham, James Clurk. Donald Clark, DouR"las W . Y N. Y. N. Y N. Y N Y. N J. Cuillt•ri<'r, Roland Curat..olo, .l(lt' l>an>luk, Ni.-holas n· Apr il<•. Daw. 011, Shi rlt>Y 204 Odell A ve.. Endicott, N. Y. 3924 Clarendon Road. Urook ly n , N. Y. 94 Wa!.l'r St. , llin1thamt. on, N. Y. 29 Johnson A ve., llin1thamto n, N. Y . 103 C le,·ehind Ave .. Endicott DeLon•nzo . Pau1 P . Dennis, Richard V. !Nrric k, Cyril J. D'Esli. H t•ni y !)et.rick. Ue rnnrd c. Y. Uicff<onbach, Charle< E . Y. Y. Y. Y D ino. M ichru.'J Clugstone, James Leer Cobb, John, Jr. Cody. Lt.>0 Cohn, Jam"" Cole, Howard 34 Way St.. lh nichamt.on , 71 Clifton Illvd .. Uinghamt.on. 18 Gl'orl(e St., H10Khnmt on. 21 Orchard Road, Larchmon t, 59 Mc!ltoster St., Owt'gO, N. Y. N . Y. N . Y. N Y. N. Y. Coleman, Edward Collin11wo od, Bernard Comfort, William Conklin, Elaine Conklin. Jeannine 410 Ostranckr A'•·· Ri,·crhcad , 2111 Lincoln Ave .. Endicott, Luca. S t., G ree ne. 15 Hooper Road. J ohnson C ity, R . D . I. Apalac hin. N N. N. N. N. Conroe, B yron Conk, Frederick Cook, Holu111l Cook. Vi..,·ian Cooia·r , Jamt.•-; G 110 Walnut St.. llini;hamto n. n Grand Ave .. Johnson City, 23 Par!. SL. Cortland. 13 Bt•aC'on St.. H1n1r:hamton, 179 MatLhl'WS Sl., llinv.hamt.o n , N N. N N .. N. N . J. Ct10n. N Y N Y. N Y N N N N. N 26 Hill A v<'., F.ndicott. 35?; y,..,t.nl lll•ad. V<•atal. 162 Oak SL. llinicllamlo n, 155 l...nur<•l Ave., Binghamto n, 20 Mill<'r St .. llin1thamt.o n. N. N N. N N Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 506 Davia A v(' .. Endicott. 265 K Gene><~"' St., Auburn. HPI.! Carhart Avt' .. UinJ:humW n. 6!1 Madi,on St • Corllrtnd. 106 Madison A,c., E<lnicolt.. N N. N. N. N Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Jinx 2'1. Colley, l'a. 27 Holland St .. lhm:hnmto n. N Y . 603 Florene<• St., F;ndiroll.. N Y. 346 Mtun St.. 1.ak ~ !'lucid, N. Y 223 llrrmond A vr .. ~:ndicolt., N Y. Dixon. Rlchnrd Dolan, Robt:' rt M. Donatelli, Nicholas A . Donnelly, f!.o1<er Donovan, Cf'rltr1ote W., Jr. Donovan. Jame?J l... 10 Garde n St.. Walton. 629 W Gray St.. ~:lrm rn , H Frunt S t .. llini:hnmto n. Crl'Stmont Hond. llmgh nmton, Donovan. Robert F Dopp<'I, H arold W. 12~ Y. Y. Y. Y Y. Dove. Albert Doyle, Gt>011<<' Druker. Robert Duda, An ne UufTy. J am,, 309 Adamo A"' • Endicott, 325 lliv<'Tllide Drrvc. Hinl(hamto n, 119 Crt'Stmo nt Road. IlmKhamt.o11 , 272 East SL. 1''.to>t.ham11uin. 22 B••nnetL A v~ .. llin1thn mt.o n , Y Y. Y. Y .. Y. l)uml>l1·t... n. J11ck Dunk lo~. K••ith J)outn ln 1'~""111 Dunn. c;..•rtrud(• 131 Y. \" 84 Cr<"slmonl !toad. Binghamto n, N . Y. R D. l , Endi<'oll. N . Y . Dcxh<'1mcr . HoberL Dexter. Jam<'>! E. Dic kt•rso n, l<obcrl J Dunn , Y. Y. Y. Y. Y S t..onchc..•nirt'. Albany, N Y 9 Sturc"'vun l St.. JuhnS<>n C ity. N. Y. Oe\\('y, Paul {)11n11, Y 22 1 Ouk II ill Avt•. 1':11ch rott. N. Y. Oe Wan, Conrad 519 Waw r ly St.. Wuvl'rly, N. Clarke, Edwin 64 Oak S t .. llini;hamto n. N Cleary, RobcrL 329 Odell A ve.. Endicott. N. Clemt'nte, Alber t S. I.. N. Cline. Richard 75-28 651.h Drive, W est Fo1·<'St Hills. L. Cincinnatu s, N . Clinton. Ric hard E. 208 Wayne St.. Endwell. 531 v~.,.La l Road, Ve..tal, ...... Easl Ri ver Road. Wc• t llcncrictt.a . llox 94, Ua inb r idKe. 309 Clara St . Endicott. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. I 4 Gnte St.. Pou•i:hki·t·p~1P, N 17 Front St. V,·:-.tal. N flet•ht•rw, 1Ul1mond Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Earl S. Harold R. .RobcrL '!I· Thomas J . William L. N N N N. N 310 Ea•l R iv<'rsick i)rivc, Oh•an, N . Y. 2 l1001wr l!l111d, 1-:nclwC'll, N Y 103!1 0«<•an l'urk way, Brooklyn, N Y 21 S. Wt"'t S t , AllC'nlown . !'a. 2 1S SL Charll'S SL, Juhn,on Cuy. N Y. Davi"'· Ho l•·rt 11 . l)a,·iN. William Davi._, l...awrt'Ol'l" l>avis, ~hc•ldon N. N. N. N. N. Clark, Clark. Clark, C la rk, Clark, Y. Y. Y. Y. ZJ:~ l)avidto.un. lhur<.• Dow l>a\'it ~. Jiu\\ nrd Oerk<•r, G1'011<e t'>t.."t"kcr. Normau Decker, n.aymond N. N N. N. N lfift W. 1.akt.• R•I., G(·nt~l'O, N Y :IJ McKrnh·y .\ \(', i-;nclh·ntt. N Y 115 1':n.•l 72 St. N<•w Yo1·k City, N Y Jcmnnc llarplno. Roy Davt•nporl . ~iolnnJ.t;t.• Ut• Ht •nt>d ittiH, Fr.111k N. N. N. N. N. Palh'nburs: :. 101 Ml. l'IC'IU!Rnt St.. D.-rby. 202 W . Washingto n Av!'.. Elmira, 20 HofTmnn A vt•. y ,.,.1.al, 111 Jt.'j<~ut Sl.. S<·h~ne<·tu.ty. Stamford, 283 Clint.on St. llinghum" "'· 156 Grund A vt.·. John ...on City, 207 N. 11.oos<•v••ll. AH•.. 1';nchrott. 152 Brond Avt,o., Hnuchnmt.o n ft~d\\Rnl Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 24 $prim: St., Cuba. 866 r:l•mcre P lace, The llronx, South Ot.., clic. 22 Garfield A ve .. Endicott. 23 G rant Ave., Endicott, Childs, William Chodos, Edward Church, Bernal Chwalow, Dnvid Cialeo, Joseph F. 4 'h llt'llt'VU<' A\•t'.. llin1thamt.o n, 14 Vi ridl St.. B1n1thnmt.on, 1!1 1 L1b<•rly St., J.<:ndirolt. 9.tfi v~·~lnl. Ave.. BinKhHmtA>n. 177 Crnry Ave-., JhnJ!hamto n , Cou"t'. Norman R . Craft. Delwt'rt CrnPo. Hirhn n l J . Crawford. Claude. Jr. Crawford. J ohn I.I. 311 Dorn Ave., llounil Broo k. N. J . 24i Fro n t St .. Uin1tham ton, N Y. 5 De rby Av<'.. Aubum, N. Y. 184 Broad St.. Schuylen·i llc. N. Y . 114 Robin•on St., BinR:hamt on, N Y. Campbell, James Cnnny. Jam<'• J. Ca1><>ui. John 9 J'lcasant CL Drive, Ilinghamto n, 24 E~<>wood Rortd. Binghamto n, UM Main St., Binghamto n. 193 N . Baldwin St.., John&0n City, 304 Dwir:ht. Avl'., J.<:ndicolt. Cordrey, Glen Conc•ll, Marilyn Cosby, Chari"" Cot.cher. G<'Or1te Courtrighl , Grant Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. N N N N Y. Y. Y. Y Mnnch,•slc r l(omJ PouJ,:hkt"<'l)sl<', N. Y. N Y. N . Y. N. Y. Mn"'"· N Y :1 ll:mlin1t Av1·. v..,.u.1. N w.,.,lu ~ ms:-. Y. l'a ai?U M1u11 ~t., Hrn~hamtnn. N \ 25 C• .. •r.:e St• O"-t'g'o, N \'. lL lo'. 0 .. Ml)nt.gomt•l"y, N Y. S4"l·und St, �104-25 88th Ave., Richmond Hill, Duntl<'Y, Frank E., Jr. 4 93 Glenwood Ave., Rochest<'r, DurhRm, Charil'>< B. Cadosia, Dul"lnnd, Alb<'rt 318 W. 104th St., New York City. Dwc•rt•s, Dorothy 45 Monr()(' Ave., Larchmont. Dyer, J ohn 162 Brnnd Ave., Binghamton, R. D. 1, Deposit, R. D . 1, De1><>•it. Ve!!tal Center, Box 282, Endwell, Earley, Dorothy ERrly, Julia Enrly, Robert F.a..ton, Burt Elderkin, Vernon, Jr. N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Falbo, Samu<'I Fallun, J ohn Farb<•r, William Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. N. Y. N. Y. Ferru.ru, Jamt."8 Gorman William 1'... Goudey. Mimi N. Y. Goundry, Diune N. Y. N. Y. Grabowski, Ch<'Ster W . Gl'anl, Laurence GrlUls, Sally D. 19 S<1uire• Av<•.. Endicott, ll Jone• St., Din1<hamt.on, R. D. 2, Vcslal, 255 Court St., Binghamton. '11 Crestmont Road, BinKhamt.on, N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. N Y. Finkel•tein, L<•norc Flnnascun, Gernld Flynn, Richard Fuley, Edward M. Ford." Jamt'H 71 Cn.,;tmont Road. Binghamton, Greene, Hollins St.. Uinghn.mton, 122 Cho11in SL, Bin1ehamton. 317 Front SL . Owego, N. Y. N. Y . Grc'f<ory, Myron E. Grimm, Everett. J. N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. Grul>ow, Alan Grt.'\!O, Carolyn Mayer Grt."t'n, Dolor-..~ O•car, J .. J r. Grc-en , Ralph V. Cn~·n, 790 N. Charlott<· St. Pottstown Pa. ll nic1<erty, Richard E. Hall, Jack 0. Halliday, Herber~ Hamann, Rit•hurd K Gnh:. Le N N. N. N Chcnant:o Brid).(t'. N 1Ji-; R. ll Gnltu).:ht..'r, Jnrnts T. Gulln~h1.:r, lh>lH•rt {;anl·~. ,..\nthot1)' J , Gutlocl... lkrna1 d G. {;l\rmu.n, Duvi<l Has.~. 2!> Hcrbt•1·t. Hnd"·ll. Guy T. llafler, Hany A. llUICJ(Crty, John P. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. l, Ch\.•nangu l-'ork . N Y. St.. BinJthamt.un N. Y. Jun~ St .. ~:ndicott. N. Y. 30 ltivervicw Av<' .. Uinghamt.on. 108 Vincent SL, llinl(hamlon. 93 Grand Blvd., Hinghamton, 41 Adams St., Brn1:hamton, 2~3 \I" Cou rt SL, Bin1ehamlon, 73 Benncll Ave .. Binghamton, 26 lknnett Ave., Binghamton, 26 Brookfield Road, Bin1ehamton, 74 Cuok Sl., Johnson C ity, 134 Monroe Ave., Brock1>0rt, N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 132a Soulh Broad St., Norwich, N. Y. 32 Schiller St., Bin1:humt.on, N. Y. 244 7U1 SL, Renova, Pa. 108 W. Wendell St., Endicott, N . Y. 1305 E. Main !:'t., Endicoll, N. Y . 525 Paden SL, Endicott, N. Y. 203 Cl,•velaml Avt•., Endicott., N. Y. Fox Hobl•rt Fn.·nrh Robt!rt Frit·nd Hob<•rt Frat;(;, Vt•rt•<'n C. Fnynl, l'aul I'. Jtill Ri'".._.r\ii(•v.· Dri\"t•, Endicou. It ll. 2, Jumt·•tuwn, 5 Schultz St., Port Jt•rvi,. 41~1 N. Mt.:Kinl('} AH: .. Jo:ndicott, Harris. N. Y. Outlook Farm, Windsor, N. Y. 605 R""8 SL, Coudcr.1l0rt.. Pa. 4 Stone SL, llinghumton, N. Y. Bullis !toad Marilin, N. Y. 68 W. Main St., Coble!kill, N. Y. Gullbor1e. William H. C. H..rhcrt 1145 Vest.al Av<·., Uin1ehamt.on, N. Y. 8!» PcnnKylvunia Avl•., Somervil le, 'Ma.'iS 1025 i-;x•.'t"•r A\•c., W. Pilt.t:;ton, Pa. !Oil Nurth St., ~;ndicott. N. Y. 114 Bernice St. Johnson City N. Y. 33 Ja.:kson Ave. Endicott N. Y. Whitn<·y Point N. Y. Fr~, Y. Y. Y. Gul'rdat, David E . Guernsey, Charles R. Fun•man, John ll. Fon•st, Ral11h Furmanek, \\ 11lium L. Fowlt•r John M Fox Hichard Fulh·r, Juhn Fut mun. f'rttnk l\1. (;utlo .. Nt~Hi"· N. Y. Y. Y N. Y. N. Y. 61 McMuskr St,. Bath. N. Y. 1910 K Main St., ~:ndicutt, N Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 26 Massachw;elts Ave., Juhnson City, N 88 Cre!<tmont Houd, BinJ(humton. N. N <•wark VnllPy, N. 5 Mildred A w., Binghamt.on. N. 1 204 '.: l'ro<p<.>ct St.. F:ndicott. N. Golden, Slanley D. Goldfurh. Kenneth Goldschmidt., ln1ee Go<>denouRh. Franc<'ll I. l.orman, Walter 2tl Br~w!-.ll.•r SL John:-,on City N. Y. 24i \\"uds''-"orlh Avt!. Nl•w York City N Y. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. F<·tcho Joseph, F1et1ll-r, William l"ilctto, Frank J. flnkcl•tein, J uk'll F t:rrnri, Mary A. 4 Clay St.• V<11tul, 22 Raiford Rond, Vt"St.al, 22 Huiford Road. Vr..lal. 47:1 17th St... Brooklyn. 34 Fowl1•r Ave .. Port Jervis, II McDonald A vf!., UinJ(humt.<m N. Gilman, John 72 Tompkins SL, Binghamton, N. Giunt.a. Agatino Gio,anni 35 ~;n<li cott. Av<'.. John>-011 City, N. Glanville. Robl, r L 4 Alkndnlt• Road, Bin1<hamton, N . Glazier. Raymond A. 60 Farr A ve., Juhnsun Cily, N. Gleason, Albert. C. Glover. Donald K. Glover, W. Donn.Id Gober Stephen R. Godwin, Gl<'nn G. Gt1ldbcrg, Erwin N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. 336 Clint.on St., llinp;hnmt.on. 38 1" Moeller St., Binghamton, i9 Knt•eland Ave .. Uin.cha.mton. 214 Wayne St.. Mexico, 13 Kni1eht. Ave., Endicoll, Fl'<lukt', John ~-einbcrg, Phillip Feldman , Sylvia R. fo"t.•nner, Alvin Y. Gilg, Joseph C. Gilliam, l': mmn M. t.Hham. Loren 0. Gillie>;. Richard J. Gillson, Thomas L. 128 W . Wt•ndcll St., Endicott., N. Y. 104 Grant Av<'., Endicott, N. Y. 54 llospilal St., Carbondal<'. Pa. 59 Main SL, Vestal, N. Y. 991 PrC!lident St., Brooklyn, N. Y. EverU!, William Y. Y. Y. Y. N. Y. N .Y. Mass. N. Y. N. Y. 1700 Tracy SL, Endicott. 862 E. 15th St.. Brooklyn, 11 Mary St., llinghamt.on, 110 E. Franklin St., Endicott, 308 W. Main St., Endicott. FnirbrothC'r, E. Jean N. N. N. N. N. N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. 311 S. Franklin St.. Walkins Glen, N. Ellison, William Ellner, Conratl 6~-12 Yellowstone Blvd .. Forest Hills, L I , N. 6 Evans St., Binghamton, N. Emilio, Daniel J. 6 Evnns St., Bi1<nhamton. N. Emilio, Henry D. Lisle, N. Ensi1<n , H ugh Erickson, L ennart N. E~errnan. Edward F.•wurthy, Jos<'Ph W. Evans, Howard H. Evan., Thonins W. Binghaml<m. Binghnmt.o n. Binghamton, Binghamton, St., Endicott, 120 Hudson A ve., Nedrow, N. Y. Gl'rman, Ro!x>rt W. 109 M ilan A ve., F;ndicolt, N. Y. Giarusso. Vinrcnt J. 83-52 Talbot St.., Kew Gardens, J.. I., N. Y. Gibbs. Ma rjorie S. R. D. 6, Lancasll.'r, Pa. Gibbs Richuccl 317 Cherry St., Eli,.a.Jx·th, N. Y. Gildea, ~:d"ard J. N. Y. N. Y. 514 Vestal Rond, Ve;tal, 14 N<'ahwa Pinc<'. Oneonta, 783 D" ighl Avf.'., Holyoke, 97 Front St., Vestal. Box 28, Trian1de. ElclrNI, Marilyn Eldn·d. On·n Elkins. Frank !':Iii,., D. Bruce Ellison. Greydon 33 Fayclle St., 42 Crary A Vf•., 42 Crary Ave., 65 llnld win St., 201 K Main Garson, Edith Jane Gavin Edwnrd M . Gavin, Thomns J. Gcis<'r, Alan II . C1·nt, Thomlll! W ., Jr. Y. Y. Hannk , Willium llancoek, Curlylc Hnuitchak, lh.-rnard A lll'n C. Jlarlo{rt:aV<•tt, Jumc.:s Harold!'On, (;u:-, Jlanst·n llurrinf..."'ton, Gt..•on:e- )1un~t.·ll llartman, Ga< liu~tings, :!:\ Crossmon St, Al\•Xnndria Ua}, N. Y. 6 .I:::otun Pla<.·c. llinKhamt.on, N. Y. 132 ltobcn. ltolx·rt J . Ila} man. Rolwrl C. llt•a\int,_• T, Jttmt·~ C. 509 River Tt'rrnn• ~~nd i<'<1t.t, Box 38, Maine, It. D. I. Owe1:0. 20!1 Lincoln Ave. Dunkirk. 33 C. F. J. lllvd .. John•un City, N. N. N. N. N. Y Y. Y. Y. Y. 8 Arthur St.., llin1:hamt.un, N. Y. R. D. I. Bruck It y. Pa. 205 Chc..-gtnut Avt•., Ml•tu<"ht.•n, N . .J. 5:1 ~.uclid Avt• .. W"1'twood, N. J. 105 Cypr<''" Sl., Westwood, N. J. 407 ~:. Franklin St., ~;ndicotl. N. Y. tiH J<'ronl. St.. Owej.~O. N. Y. 79 Front SL, Bim:hamt.on, N. Y. 5:;2 l'ntll•n St . Endicotl.. N. Y. 111 Mt·Kinlt•y Ave. Endicott, N. Y. �2806 Albany St.. Scheneetad y, 160 W. 95th St .. New York City, 92-29 7ith St... Woodhave n, ... .... 414 Squi r <'S Ave .. Endicott, R1•d C r <'ck. Hebenstree t, William Heimann , John Heinsohn, George H. Herciga, William C. Heron, John J., Jr. R. D. 1, Ilrookfi<•ld RD., Northport N. Y. Hencr, Richard P. 116 Jeffen«m Ave .. Endicott. N. Y. Heyman, Al vin 3403 f'rcdcrirk St.. Endwell, N. Y. Hill, Franklin Guilford 26 Division St., Ilinl(hamto n, N. Y. Hilliard, Clayton Paul 832 W. 3rd St., WilliamsPO rt, Pa. Hinds, John W. Hinman, Howard L. Hoag, William R. Hohn, Thomns J . Holl, Robert E. Hood, Rob<>rt E. 67 Ha rrison Avc .. Lock r><> rt, N. Y . 36 Harrison St., John,on City, N. Y. 31 Orchard Av<o., Johnson City, N. Y. Conklin Road. llin1~hnmton. N Y. Main St., Mildred, l'a. H ood, Robert K. Hopkin•, Philip L. Horko tt. G<"orge H orkoll, John Horscy, Willinm Jl. 97 F t'Ont St.. 0w<'it0. N. Y. 6 Bunks St.. Cortland. N. Y. 35 Gl· rnrd Ave., Binghamto n, N Y. 60 GC"rnrd A ve., Binghamto n. N. Y. 424 Swarthmort.> Av<!., Swarthmo re, Pu. 9 Seminary A ve . . Bina.rhamt.an, 108 Park Pine<•. Wnv1•rly, 259 II rand SL, ~;rmiru, 2 Herk1•loy A vo., Yonkt•r., 322 Prosp«t St.., lli11i.:ham1<1n. Knsmer. Julian F. Keal, William Kcc. Philip G.. Jr. Kcigh1·r. Jack Kellam, Rob<•rt 18 1 St<•lln ((ond, llini.:haml< in. N Y. 240 Whiw !lul l ltoad, All~rny. N. Y . Y 8~4 0 1•i!fin l'urkw,.y, B n>0klyn. N 15 LonKvic•w Road. J.ivi n1{Nton. N . J. 5~ Main St.. ll1ni.:hnml on. N . Y. Kt.)mp, f~Uftt.'nc• T. h.••nnl'dy, F r<'<leri("k L. K<nncdy, Robert P. Kt..\()UKh, Frum·is Kt•re.,t<"-S, 1-: . Mark 577 Muin St .. Ow<'!<o. N Y. \V aymnrt. Pa. 726 S. Wayne St .. l..ewi,town , ra. :rn Lincoln Av{'.. H inghumt.on . N. Y. 44 S. SnruC<" St .. Mt. Cnmwl. J>n_ N. N N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Kline. H erberl A . Klini.:man, Jack D. Klinko. Donald I'. Klinko, Robert K Ko..-.st. ~~dwanl Hudda, Hd<"n B. Hudy. Mal'l!aret llue ne r. Elizabeth llunl'crfor d. Clark L Hunt, John 5 Brady St.. Johnson City. 8 Seymour A,c., lhnithanl(.o n. R:l Lu, k SL. Johm1on City. W1'SL ~: nJ Ave., llinghumto n, 1103 Monroe St.. Endicott, N. N. N. N. N Y. Kohn•t.am, Rob<•rt S. KolO$ki. Rnb<•rt S. Kom1nus, Pnu l Konik. John C. Kostun. Mnry Ian none, J o~eJ.> h V. Ingraham. Roh•:rt lngr~sia, Sulvalor<• JackM>n, R1drnrd J1tmt"S N. N N. N. N. .lnm~. Arlin(• Jam<'><, John A . Ja.mie~on . .Joh11 ll. Jnmie-;.on. Jo:..tt>h JI Jash.•lonis. lh·dwi~ J. 56 Harrison ~t.. Johnson Cit)~. :i09 8. Lib<·rly Avt·, Endicott. 2tr) Main St., Binghamto n. 1:! llak"r St . Johnson City. 5 l>own~ Ave. . Binschnmlo n, l\ N N Jennings, \Vurrt'n 0., Jr. 629 Ch(>namto SL. lh n~hamton, 4005 llhnrn St.., F.lmhun<t. L. I . Jimc1wz, M1ma C. 30l Glt•n Av<o,, Port. ClH·~tcr. Johan~(•n, Howard 141 ll udson St., Johnson Cit)'. Johnson. Jnmt·:-;. E. 111 Filmor'-' A\'t• .. 1:-:ndiroll, John~on, Vir~dnin t.. John .... ton, John~tone. James Jon~. Dori:-; Jont·~. ll c.mry 1-:. Jon" . Riehnrcl Jon<«, Thomnx Jon(."'i, \Villium Jordan. Jam<.,. JoS<•fth Donald Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Joycc. Clcm«nt V. Jubin, Arthur J urenu. Loul-; ltttlc. . l.eo Kallielw. 1\rlhur A, 328 Squi l'<'S A v1•., ~:ndirott, 107 llill A v.-.. lfodicotl. 141 Matthews St.. lhughaml.u n. 237 Grand Av<'., J oh nson City, 405 K 237 St., Nt•w York City, Y Y. N. Y. N Y. N. Y. 405 K 237th St.. N,·w York City, K1"0(lst('r, Ow~n A. 65 Cnrlton St.. Johnson City, Ku .. harek, William W. 35 Haught.on SL. \Vor,·t•!d..t.•r , Kurhin"ka.'i, \Vlllinm W. 304 C linton St., lli nl(hnmton, Kulik. Marion 304 Clin1<1n St... llini.:hamto n. Kuhk, Nochola.; N . Y. N. Y N Y. N. Y. I.akin. f!ov:cr E. 1.akom<'<'.. Olga I.amh. Putri1·ia 1-MlnlJl man. n.ugcr Lanclon. llownrd A Kwrn.tkow~k1, N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. N. G. A. R J. N . Y. N. Y. N. Y. Kuru.tnick , Sll-1>h••n Kust:.L.-;, N icholas L . h.ustog, Will1n m G. Kust..ilM, Willinm J. 7 L<•wi., St.. Vt'Stal. N. Y. P. L.;.l..,..kow:-.ki, AJl.>t•rt N Y. N Y. LnutJP1'. Jaows II. l.tLUlh·r, LamlH.'rt D . Ll'ary, John J .. Jr. 1.c Buron. Ruh<•rt. I>. Lc.'tlt•rfr1 rad, Robert Y. L•·frh('(· k . i\.lt•xan<kr l.t.;"\'il.l, 1.A.'0111ll"<l ll. J.t'\\ 1~. John \V. 12 lliv:..Jow St., llinv:hamto n. N fi HiKhlnnd A\',>., Lnkt! Pia ·id ~ 11 Vincinia. Av<... Johrh.on Cily. N I Julian St.. Bini.:hamto n. N 507 Ma1n St .. Pou ..thlwt'P!'l.H!, N . Y Y. Y 1.tn114 I. Ruh•h W L 1~....,n. Y 133 r<.u:.-dl M . M AM. N . Y. N Y. R7 SmiLh St.. PouJ!hk,"('tHic, N 1r, Mont.c.·lnff A v,• . . But.uvia. N J lh•ll,·vu<.• A\it'., Bim:hnmt. on, N V. Y. Y. 12 1 Wl'st St.. Johnson City, N. Y . 642 Ch<•nuns:o St. Port Dkkuuw~m. N Y . !)72 Ctwnan'-!o St .. BinKhum t.on. N Y. Lllthum. Kc nn<•th II , Jr. N J. N . Y. N. Y. N N 7GH Sl.."l.h• St.. BiriJ.:hnmt.on , N. Y. 4fi Bax t.t•r St. Binl{hamt. on, N Y. I.arham, J am,"8; fo;. Larko. Jusc1>h f'. Laltu10, Rol.k•rt Y. \". Y Y.. N N 254 Ra ih·o«d AV<' .. S<-rnnton, P u . 142 M antuon. Poughk..""Cpsic, .N Y . 1::-;dwnrd R.. ll<''erly l'laee. John-on City, N 27 Endicott A"<'-. Johnl')on Cit.)', N iSO ChPnanm> St.. Bin..:hnmtn n, S Con,.cdon Phlct,, Binj.thnmto n, 1.:7 Ddst•a Drin·, \V():'\tvillc. 1 J.I lknnett St.. Ho1 ncll. 113 Tillo~on St.. ('n11nntln1v:ua, 27 I.imfrn St.. Biu~i;humt.on. N . V. 7 l~tnnn St.. Bini:hamto n. N. Y. l $<oym our St.. Binghumt.o n, R. I>. 3. lhni.:hamt on. 1008 Mon roe Si.... ~;n.ii..ott. 39 Bloominudull' Av(• .. (;lovcnw illc. 169 Pros1>«ct St.. llin~hamt.on, Y. Y. Y. Y. N. Y. N :l2 Curtis Pinet.•. FH·donia, N. Y. 3-;a2 UinH.'Y Av(• _, !-it"runt.on. Pu. Jon{'S, David N. 1617 Riv('rvit•w J)riv\', t:ndit·ott, N . Y. A v<• .. Johm;on City, N Y'. 27 Lind<·n SL. BinJthamt. on, N . Y. M R!-.~ac-hus<'tls Kro<1{('r. Ht•nry .. ,J. Thoma~ 1!>5 K0>1tyu m , John Kot.chick. J ohn (,., Jr. Koury, Geors.t(' E. K rC'w8Qn, Nt'il N. Y. N. Y. N. Y. N ..Y N. Y. 2102 Rh en:icw Uri\'t'. Enclic-ott. 16 Jt"ffor"°n Ave.. Bini.:humto n, 4U lleh•n St .. llin1drnmto n. 30 Th<..• Arena. B111){hamton. 21~ Mtuli wn A'"'" EnJirott. Isbnn, Rol><•rt Ives , Rkhnrd A. Ivory, Thomas H. Jacoby, Andn·w 66 Cr<K"kcr Av••., J ohnKon C it y, N . Y. Cincinnnlu. .'i. N . Y. J\in$!', Cordon 0. Cincinnatu s. R. 0. 2. V<"<tal, 30 Jul iard St., Bainbridge , 69 Dal<lwin St, Johnson City, 82 Prosvt.•1:t. St., Uinghnmt.o n, 104 Crock~r Avc .. Johnson City, 113 Nuntkokc Av<'., Endicott, 505 F lot l'll CC St.. Endicott, Gn:>.t.•nc. 124-10-103 A,.,., Richmond Hill. 316 lwbin-.1n St.. lli11i.:hamt on. N. Y. 213 Front St., Jlinv:hamto11, N. Y. Kess)('r, Barbara. A . T. Killam, G<"rul<l R. Kindt, William H . Hotchkiss. W illiam J. Houseknec ht, Karl Howe, RuSRcll llrici1rn, Edward Hudak. John Hurlburt, Richard B. laCO\'Clli, Guido 9 F'ran k St., JhnghamtJ m, N. Y . Kt•r:stt'in. Harold Y. Y. Y. Y. N Y. N. Y. N. Y . N Y. N . Y. Kan<'. John R. Knnku•. Rob<-rt C. l\ar. John J., Ji-. Kar.<, Char)1.,. J. Kamp, Ilernnrd Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. N. N. N. N. N. 92 Carrollton "'". t; lm1ru, 146 Laurd Av,... llinidtamto n, l"b Cuurt. SL. Huudmml.o n. 368 Clinl.•m St, llini:haml< m, 40 Mu ry SL. llini:homl< m, 1<;ds1:cwood l(nad, BinsdmmtJ m. IZ .Madih(Ut A"'' . Endl<·oll, 6:~ Mary St., lhr1t.~hamton, 31 Vnll<.>y St.., lli11d111mton, 2:17 W. Walnut St., J,onv: U.·ach, 1109 Monroe SL , ~:ndi<'Ott. 29% ll<'Clford A V<'. llmoklyn, 22:~ Jl orw.·1• Avt• . , i'1llmyru. 16 Ba<l>:t'r St. t:nd t<"olt, 37 Wenll'r l'urk , Hochc.tcr, N N N N N Y Y. Y. Y Y. N N N N. N. Y Y. Y. Y Y N. Y N Y N . J. N. Y. N Y. �2 Bigelow St.. Binghamton. N . Y. 47 M urray St.. llinghamto n, N . Y. 25 Narwood St.. Johnson C it y , N . Y . 28 E. 32nd St.. lndianaPolis. Ind. 7 Garfield Ave .. Binghamton, N. Y. LiU!, Joseph Littlejohn, Harry Livingston. Doris Look. Francis Loveland. Lawrence W. 30 Dedford Ave., Monticello. 603 S. Liberty A ve .. Endicott, 150 Park Ave.. D inghamt.on, Campbell. 4 Mary St.• Vestal, N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. M<'ddaul(fl, Fran k D. M<!e, James Henry Melinsky, William Mercer, George L. Merriam, John I..owry, Alllltin C. l ..owry, Donaldson, Jr. Ludington, Lloyd J.udka, Joseph M . Ludlam, Walter 45 Front SL, Owego, N . 45 Front St., Ow<~o. N. Maine, N. 58 Acad.,my St., Johnson City, N. 16 Allen St., J ohnson City, N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. B<Jx 343, Apalachin, N. Y. Merrilce-s. David 106 Vest.al Road, Vest.al. N . Y. Mersereau, B ert.am 825 S. Manor. Yo r k. Pa. Meyers, Joseph 48 Schiller St.. Dinghamt.pn. N. Y. Michalyshin. George 295 Centr a l Park W., New York City. N . Y. Michel, Julian IL Mc CafTrey, M cCaffrey, McCallum. McCarthy, McConnell, Alfred A. William Richnrd Hubcrt Joan Weot River Road, Oswego. 5 Sumner Ave .. J3inghnmton. 136 Smith St., Me rr ick. L. I.. 124 Murray St.. Dimchnmton. 3204 Ma.rm• Ave .. Endwell, N. N. N. N. '"· Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Miller, JoseJJh. Jr. Miller, George Miller. Lro Mill~r. Robert Miller. William E. Carhart Ave .. Binghamton. 204 W<'St Main St.. r:ndicott. 27 Liberty St.. Monticello, 2302 Muin St.. Endicott, 285 Main St.. Owt•go, N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Mills, Raymond E. Millstone. Donald M . Minckl.,r. E lme r C. Mislr<'tta. Peter Mitchell, Uruce K Y. Mohney, H<'rl>ert, Jr. McCormack, William McCormick. Harold H. McCrnnor. Craig J. McCusk<•r , Edward F'. McGt'ath, Lawrence 201 S. Wa.<hingtno St.. Bingh amton, N McGuire. Barbara Mcllal<'. Jam<"' J. McH<•nkn, JNt.nO<• I.... McMahon. Lawrence J. ?>l<'Mahon, William T. Fr~dc•rick W . Morgan. LcRt>y W . Jr. Y. Morgan. Leslie P. :-.!orrioon, 111<'lville Mowry, Jame~ R. Mullan<'. Daniel Murphy. Alfred .... Mack. John P. 32 New York Ave ...Johnson City, Jl.fRck. Marion II. ( M rs.) 32 N<•w Yorh Av~ .. Johnson City. '.'vlnddon. John K 2:1 Way St.. llinghamt.on, Mahar. Rolwrt 82 C:h,·stnut St, llinghamton. '1uhcr, \\"ilham P. S;) S. \Va~h1n~!"ton St.., Hinghamt.c1n, N. N. N. 1' N Y. Y. Y Y Y. Murphy, J . Willinm Murphy, William T . Murra.y, llar bnra J. Murray, Robert J . NH<lham. David P. ~I nitwr>, llowu rd \\.. 3t0 (~rant 1\Vt.· . . Jo;ndi<.-oU.. N . Y l'il'r<'« St .. Hini:hamtun. N Y Stuy\",••w.nt St . Uin.,dnunton, N Y !'Vlakrt~. Thomtt..~ 2~1 ~lalih, 1a1 Ml\ttlwwl'> St.• Binghamton . N .John C .. Jr. Midtbl" llt-rl><·rt \111n1tu~. Floyd MannjnJ.f, Jo:.l'J>h J.:. Manho, Arthur Marano. Anthony P. Mar.:vu('\, Sum Mnrknrinn. \nlhnny Marknrinn. gamut•I 'lllrkhnm, Wood c·. \larko, Gt-or~t.· Mnrtin. CcRnt~ L. Nt.~umann . St.. l-:11dirott. N. Y. O N Lyon St.. l\auwia. t:itl Viu I Avt·. Mt"<.'futnics\'illt·, 1.;u Pitu- Sl. . l!in.cham t.on, 2200 K North St.. ~:ncJicott, N. Y N. Y. Noland, Rolx•rta A. 1'orlon. GC'r:dd W. Nut..i:•warc·. Harold \;usom. Rfr·h.a.r d M. Oates, Walter E. 218 Hill """· ~:nc.ficott. N. Y 9(; Cn..,.tn'lont Hoacl, Binghamton. N. Y :!2 l«><><!·\•t•lt Av<'., ~;ndicott. R. D. 2, illnghamwn. ~2 lh•ethoven St.. llin1ehaniton, Martin, Raymuntl 421 Loder S t .. Wave rly. Ma.~lt.~Ht.~r. Hn rol<l W. M.attht.•\\.'S, [)onnld J. i3 Pt•nnsylvnnia A\"t.>., Bin){hamton. 406 McKinky Av<' .. ~ndic.·ott.. 2t) Bt·nnctt ..\,., , Binj.thamtuu, 18 1 :.: Stuy,·t...,nnt St . Bin'-!"hamurn. l n ::;i Churlvs St.. Johnson <.;it)-. N. N. N. N N. Arthur R. N ..·wst.·hwander, Ward A. Nichol. James Nou.k~. VY-illiam N. Y N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. N. Y. .N. Y. N. Y N Y. 'vVh1tl\<'Y Point, N. Y. O' llrien. Le.Ji., ... O'Connell, James 0. U'(.;on nor. Donald J. O'Connor. Joa n O'Oay, John O'KC<•fe. Yvonn<• M. ol.,ndt•r. Edward S. ()Ivel". Don ald O'Neill. Jo'<•ph G., Jr. O'Neill. Willinm R .. Jr. 134 N. N. N. N. N Y Y. Y. Y. Y N. N. N N. N. Y Y. Y Y. Y. 13 Seminary A v<' .. llinghamt.on. N. Y 19 L<-wis SL, Johnson City, N. Y 635 4th SL. Niagara 1''alls, N. Y. 1256 Parkwood Wvd .. Schenectady. N . Y. 100 Peunsylvanra Av<~ .. Cre:-;twood, N Y Nt•umann. f:<.'Org(' I•". 1>1·1 Corli"s A"<'·· Juhmmn City, N. Y Is1 C.:orli~K Av(l., Johns.on City. N. Y 12 l5 l•'nmt St. H11uchamton, N l'. '1urlin. Joyce ".\lnrtln, L-.·onnrcl L. \\t\tlht•w•. John H. Mnyer. \\'ilhttm C. ~tau.,•1. Mh:httt.•l \lec1t1ther. ll< vel"ly J. ~lt:akt.·r. Ct•onct.• K. Y 7 B~·llt•\'\IC AH• .. Hnhch~unton. N. Y. i 10;, ~\1onro<. 301 Vestal A ve .• Vest.al. 705 C henango St.. Tlingh11mton, R. D. J, l'ort Crane, North Roan. Ueacon. R. 0. 2, Waverly, N<•ilt•y. Uustwll A. Nt·.Jam(". Sonia N;·llissen, Clifford H. ~<·nwth. Oolor<'s I!;. N<·ulon, Hobert ~!) ..~htJka. Cht..>sh'r Tl Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 304 North St.. Endicott. N . Y. 43 Olive St.. Johnson City. N. Y. R . 0. I, Aft.on. N. Y 294 Robert SL. Elmira, N. Y R. D. I, N <'w Milford, Pu. Morell, Prank J. Y. Y \'. 'i. .Macan, Pc.•tcr 641 W . Muin St.. Y.:ndkott., 100 Avon dale !'ark. Roche;t<•r. R. D. l. Vestal, 1 15 JefT<'n<on A ve.. Endicott. 12 Shaver St.• Sodu.<, M orKnn, N. N N N. N. N. N. N. N. N. 216 Lester Ave .. John<on City, N . Y. 245 W. 75th SL. New York City, N. Y. 54 Wa.<h in;:-1.on Ave.. Endicott, N . Y . 243 W . 701.h St.. N ew York City. N. Y. Lop..,,, Pa. Moor<!. John S We>t St.. Geneva, N. Y. 2506 Watson Tllvd.. ~:ndicott. N . Y. 94 Windsor l'lae<" B r ooklyn. N. Y. 258 Main St., llinghamton. N Y. 407 K Mnin St.. 1'nclicotl, :1 LinMn St.. Bin1thumt.on. 407 N. Dwight Ave., En<licotl, 40 Conklin Av« .. Binghamton. 31 Spring For<'St A\•e.. ll1nghamton, McManis. Martha M<·Nair. Robert A. M<·Nutt. lwbert D. Mahle. Willir.:n 54 U nion St.. Johnson City, 308 Dadg c r A'•e.• E ndicott. 511 Exchan11:e Ave.. Endicott, 22 Mathe r St.. Binghamtun. . 96 Murray St.. Binghamton, Michlik, Arlene M idgley~ Frances M id gley, Kenneth Mikolasko. John Mikulski. Edward Lulkoski, Ralph S. 392 Prospect St.. Dinghamton, N. Y. I.yl"1!, Dona.Id 188 Pennsylvania Ave., Binghamton, N. Y. Lynch. Joseph 139-21 Foch Blvd., S. Ozone Park. L. I. , N. Y. Lynch, Thomas V. Trailer Village, Oak Dale Road. J. C ., N. Y. MacNeal, Stuart R. 0. 3, Montrose. Pa. 3lli r'ult.on SL r:lmir.1. 75 JW,•t.hov,•n St.. Hin.s:chu.mton. 212 Gurli<•ld A\e., J,;n1licott, Trt>mont. Ave .. Binghamton. 229 C-Onkhn Av<: .. l.lrnghrunton. N. N. N. N. 60 Wayne Av<' .• Whit<• Plain,. GO W aynt• AvL-., Whit<> Plain". 481 Court St.. Binghamton, Jt. D. I. Conklin. 130 Helt•n St.. Rin1<h11mton. N. N. N. N. N. 2 l.lellev u<• Av e. Ui n ghamton, Box 13, r;ndwell. 19 r'ront St.. Owei<o. 67 Cl<•vdand Avt•., B1n~hmnton. 465 p,~nn~ylvania Avt...... l<'f'\.•..:port, 610 1-lroad St .. r:ndicotl.. 51 1 Soul.h St.. E nc.licott. 17 H astings S t .. llinl(ham to n , 17 Schu bert St., Binghamton. R. D. I. Kirkwood. Y. Y Y. Y. N . Y. Y. Y. Y. Y Y. N . Y. N. Y N Y. N. V N . Y. N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 64 Walnut SL. Binghamton, N. Y 42 Adams SL. lh m:hamtno, N. Y 3 14 r' ran cis Ave .. r:ndicott. N. Y. 117 Oak St.. lli ngham t.on. N. 'i. Plcu.."anl M ou nt~ Pa~ �Orband, William Orzol, Leo L . ... Packs, Nicholas J. Paglia, P11S<1uale Palencar, Robert, Jr........ . Palmer, Ralph Panza, Aliccmae Patton, Marie A. Pavlyak, Michael Pearson, Harold Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Rood, Root, R<>se, Ro..,, R<>se, N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 16 Adam• St.. Endicott, Ros.,, Niss.,I 34-40 Robert St.. J ohnson City, R<>senberg, Dietrich 38 Robc?rt St .. Johnson City, Roeenberg , Edward 311 E. Edward SL. Endicott, Rosenbloo m, Joeeph S. .... 84 PleRsant Ave ,.Johnson City, Ross, Floyd E. N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. 18 Evan• SL. Bi11ghamt on, 76 Main St .. Bainbridge , 64 Jarvi• SL. Binghamto n. 66 Mary St.. Binghamto n. 39 Mygatt St., Binghamto n. N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Binghamto n, Binghamto n, Binr<hnmto n. Binghamto n, Binghamto n, N. N. N. N. N. Y. 674 Chenango St., Binghamto n, ............ 15 Eli7.abeth St., Binhgamto n, 18 Sturdevan t St., Johnson City, 4 Elm St., Binghamto n, 604 South St., Endicott, Pendorr, J ncob Peneak. Michael Perham, Robert Perkins. Francis Perl, Robert M . . 502 Grandview Ave., Brooklyn, 384 Main St.. Oneonta, 190 Front St., Binghamto n . 207 Lee Ave.. Endicott, 26 Am•bry St., Binghamto n, N . Y. N. Y. 26 Dirkinson St., 1'6 Hawley SL. ..... 44 Kirkwood A\e., 128 Helen St., 70 Thorpe St.. Ryczko, W.ilter Ryder, George E. Sacco, Anthony H. Sachs, Leonard N . Sadowiu, Peter, Jr. Salemme, John Salisbury, Rkhard M. Sali,bury, Stanley W. Sampson, Rubert W. 127 Virginia Ave.. Jonhson City, 302 Squire.. Ave., Endicott, 141 Rohineon St .. Bin1<hamt on, 22 Bigelow St., Binghamto n, 24 Pearne St.• Binghamto n, N. N. N. N. N. Y. Hair Moon Pond Road, "Nashingto n. \Vhitney Point, 41 Schubert St., Binghamto n, 6 Britnall Pl.. Binghamto n, 60 Bradley St.. North Adnms, N. N. N. N. H. Y. Y. 1611 Wi therill St., Endicott, 57 Walnut St.. Binghamto n, 103 Huguenot SL, New Rorhelle, 160 Lester Ave.. J ohnson City, 207 Robinson St., Binghamto n, N. N. N N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. 14 Grant Avf'.• Endicott, Saraceno. Ignazio 43 Milford St., Binghamto n. Savidge, fWgpr D. 7 N. Clevf'lnnd Place, J.:ndirotL Sealt-8. Edythe M. 18 Jay St., lllnghnmto n. Scarinzi. Theodort A. Mnine, Scheerer, Stephen H .. Jr. 24 West St., Johnson Citi•. 107 Squires Ave., Endicott, Conewang o Valley, Lorraine. 14 Park St.. Binghamto n, N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Schaffer, Rhoda Scheiner, S tuart L . Schroeder, John A. Schumnch er, F,dwin C. Schwartz. Abraham R. D. I, Union Springs. N . Y. 330 Quincy Ave., Srronton, Pa. 1'4 Park Ave .. Binghamto n, N. Y. 626 Maple :,\t.. Endicott. N. Y. South Gibson, Pa. Scott. Richard H. Sculley. Gt'Orge A., Jr. Scully, Helen K. Searlt'ff, Aysel, Jr. Sedor, John Putl'ino, Charles Pyeche., Peter Quinn William Rndin, Edward Raeder Fredrick Rath, Richard G. Ravers., Louis Ray, Harold L. Recd, Albert C. Recd, William C. Re ir. Gerald W. Reis~ Ira Reiehian. George Rennie, Matthew F .. Jr. Ressigue, Franklin B. Ricciardi. Steve Richmond , Hyle, V. Ridley, Earle D. Reith, Otto K . ..... Rigney, William Y. M&es. Y. N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. SeJan, Michael J. Semanek. Monica Sernecky, Ernest W. Shaffer, Leon Shamulka, Ct'Orge 102 Euclid A ve.. Altamont. R. D. I, Falconer, 905 Broad St., Endicott, .... 210 Dudley Ave., Endicott, 82 Main St., Binghamto n, N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Shapan, Eugene H. Sharpe, William C. Shaver, Gordon D. S hear, Ralph E . Sh.,.,ly, Paul M . Castle Cr""k Rd., CRstle Creek, 23'h Grant Ave., Endicott, 65 Chestnut SL, Binghamto n. 220 Hill Ave.. Endicott, 68 Ple.,..nt SL, Westfield, N. Y. N . Y. N. Y. N. Y. Mau. Sheffield, Robert P. She rwood, Walker L. Shields, John K. S h inder, JOf!<•ph ,T. Shipko, Frederick J. 135 ' Y. Y. Y. Y. N. N. N. N N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Dubois, Hallstead, Pa. Sandell, James E .. Jr. .. 192 S. Main St.. Glovenwill 1'. N . Y. Sanges, Alfred 10 Fayette St.. Binghamto n. N . Y. Santalucia , Joseph 408 N. Nanticoke A,·e.. Endil-ott. N Y. Santodona to. Louis 81 Pine St.. OinghRmto n, N . Y . Santoni. Dominic 310 Wes t Franklin St., Endicott, 260 Humbolt Parkway, Buffalo, 128 Chapin SL, Binghamto n, 60 Hays St., Binghamto n. 126 Ackley A ve.. Johnson City, Ritchie, Robert E. Roach. Broderick G. Roach. Camille. M. Robertson, Esther E. Robertson , Tait Robinson, Warren A . .... Roda"ers, Robert Rogire. Stanley Roma, Carlo Romani, Madlyn Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 108 Downs Ave.. Binghamto n. N . Y. 117 Sunrhte Driv(", Sunrise Terrace. Bin.:h<tmt on. N . Y. 28 Pine SL. Binghamto n, N. Y. 746 Elm St., New llnven, Conn 16 Harry L. Drive, Johnson City, Brownville , .. 660 4th Ave., Williamsp ort, Moira, 38 Ackley Ave., JohllllOn City, Plahanski, J. Richard Potter. Rel!"inald W. P ouki•h. Philip J, Powell, Rirhard J. Powell. Robert E. - Ruffo, Salvatore J. Rury, Franklin .. Russell. Robert C. Ryan. William J. ltybak, Arthur R. N. Y. N . Y. N . Y. 320 Bermond Ave., Endicott, N. Y. 101 N. Elmer Ave.. Sayre, Pa. 2007 Tracy St . Endicott, N. Y. 126 Squires Ave.. Endicott. N . Y . 76 Beals St., Canandaig ua, N. Y. Piccirilli, Louis E . Pieplow, Franklin D. Pinkus, Alan Pizur, Anthony Pizzillo, Mario, C. Pratt, James E. Pratt, Malcolm Prekopa, Robert J. Pruess, Fletcher Prince, Ralph H. Rounda, Richard C. Rowe, Everett A. Rozboril, Marion J. Roz.,nberg . Martin Rudik, Mich11el A. Box 42, Port Crane, N . Y. 233 Endwcll St., Johnson City. N . Y. 9 Snow A ve., Binghamto n, N. Y. R. D. 2, Susquehan na, Pa. 249 St. Charles St.. Johnson City. N. Y. Perricone, Frank J. Perrone, Ferdinand Pettyjohn. Du Wayne .. Pczzula, Kenneth Phillips, James Barbara ................. SS Falrriew Ave., Binghamto n, N . Y. 76 Matthew.. St.. Binghamto n. N . Y. Robert C. ............ . 980 E. 27th St.. Brooklyn. N . Y. George ..... ............ . 151 Adams Ave, Endicott, N . Y. Leo M. Leonard .................. .. . 1813 N. SSrd St., Philadelph ia, PL 84 South St., Binghamto n, N. 68 Sowden St., Binghamto n, N . 416 Adams Ave., Endicott. N . 116 O'Dell Ave., Endicott, N. 163 Lester Ave., Johnson City, N . N. N. N N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 1576 E . 9th St.. Brooklyn, N . Y. 711 Wnl to11 Avt'. . Bronx. N . Y. 13 Colvin Rond. & an<dnle. N Y. 292 111ain St., Binghamto n. N . Y. 218 Pinc S t .. Tnmuc1un. Pn. Earlville. 107 Bird•11ll S t Endirott, 7\lh DnviK St.. Binghamto n. 134 Chapin St .. Binghamto n, 13 Brown SL, Binghamto n, 15 1.till'!I St., Uinghnmto n, 33 May SL. Uinghnmto n, 309 W 65th St., New York rity. 5 Hiram St., JohnROn City, 1615 Newell Road. Endicott, 1773 E. 3 lst St., Brooklyn, Wolcott St .. lt<•d Creek, 106 W . Wendell St.. Endicott, 4 Donald St.. Johnson City, Box 725, Bath. N. N. N N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. N . Y. N. Y. N . Y. N. Y. N . Y. N N. N. N N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 29 Arthur St., Binghamto n, N Y. R. D. 3, Binghamto n. N. Y. Glen Ca.•tle, Utnirhamto n. N . Y. 213 N. Ri ver St.. Wilk<'sllar Te, l'a. 67 Jarvi1 SL. Binghamto n, N. Y. �N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. 4 Mill St., Binghamton. 48 Front St.. V<'f!tal. 302 Glen A v1·., Elmira, 322 Center St., Olean, R. D. 4, Binghamton, N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Smith, Sidney M. Snell, Lynford K., Jr. Sochor, John Sommers t.ein, Max Sopoliga, Charl<'f! 204 Grand Ave., Freep0rt, L. I., Chenango Forks, 301 McKinley Ave., F;ndicott, 13 California A ve., Middletown, 27 Julian St., Binghamton, N. N. N. N. N. Y. Sorber, Ralph R. Spear, David Spearbeck, Richard L. Speich, Charle• L. Spence, John A. 7 Evelyn St., Johnson City, 1 Harrison Ave., Endicott, 97 S. Washington St .. Binghamton, 614 Davis Ave., Endicott, Hyde St., Whitney Point. N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Binll'hamton, Binghamton, Ilinlfhamton, Binghamton. Orone Park, N. N. N. N. N. Y. Smith, Smith, Smith, S mith, Smith. George R. Ira J. Ivan, Jr. Marie Robert M. 31 Orton Ave., S p ringman, Edward N. 63 Park St., Stanzcl, Walt.er K, Jr. 94 Mary St., Stapleton. Newell R. 10 Be r wick Ave., Stark. Marjorie 134-11 Sutt.er Ave., S. Stein, Harry Sten•horn. Edytha Sternik, Michnel Stewart, John P . Stoddud, Chari<•• II . StonestrPet, Wayne 1603 Riverview Drive, Endicott. 24 Borchard St., Rochester, 45 Bennett Ave.. Binghamton. Mile Road, Suffern. 145 W a.shin1eto n Av'"• Endicott, Sullivan. Be rnard Sullivan, Chari<'" T. Sullivan, Eleano r T. Sullivnn, Thomllff J. Surine, Dnvid E. 5 12 Chenango St., Binghamton, Brushton, 11 Crestmont Roud. Binghamton, 7 Beverl y Place, J ohnson City, 490 Grand Ave .. J ohn•on City, TalliM, John H. TalmadlC<'. W illi11m F. Tnrr, l!~arl G. Taylvr. llichard P. Tt•1wlcr, C:> ril T T"rry. Thom..,. £. Thallini<cr. Me rrell E.. Jr.. n~:r11nrd Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. II St. J ohn A ve., Binghamton, 47 1 Chenango St., Binghamton, 120 Conk lin Avt•., Binghamton, 105 Talcott, St., Owel(o, 9 Curran A ve., Binghamton, N N N N. N. Y. Valky, J ohn Valetta. Lorrai n~ Y. Y. Van Atta , Gordon V. Y. Y. Van tlrUl'l<<'n, Reuben Vanco. :William F. 9 Curran A ve.. Bini<hamton . 29 Summe r St.. Adams, 10~ W . Union St., Endicott 110 Conklin Ave., Binghamton, l!!O H~len St... Binghamton, Y. Y. Y. Y. Wagner , Mardajeanne N. Y. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 33 C. F. J. Blvd., Johnson City, 1000 Broad St.. 1'.:nchcntt.. !14 St. Chai Iv• St .. Johnson City, 4121 7th Ave., Umoklyn, 11 Stnn l<•)' S t .. Bini:hamton, N. N. N N. Y Y. Y Y Y 53 N Y, N. Y . N. Y fiOl J t.•nninK~ St., Endicott. N. Y. tm1111t Rourl. Bin.chamtnn, N Y 21 Adam~ Av('., 1-; nd ieot t , N Y. Crt·~ Ulai ·•h•ll Ave., C0<•ym11n•. N Y Bo~ 525, Uinl'hnmt.on, N Y Wnlluck, .Merrill Wnllinic, William f'. 40 W. S6th St.. N ew York C'ity, 11 Banks Av<• .. John•on City, 20 l''c,w lcr A vt.•.. Juh n ~on Citl, 50~ Jun<' St., 1<;ndirott. 29 Rol)('rt St .. Johnson City, \Vnrn~r. Emma M . 11 l WnMson, Cruvt~n E. Watkin,, Stuart Wataon. John W<•bl>, IJnrhara Jone Webb, Llt•rt W1•bt• r, William, Jr. W~l!'e. J o hn Weintraub, Robert I. Irwin W e nge r. Th«>dore R. We<t. Charles I'. Tomo n. G'--rnht \Vhe,•pl('r, Gr&C't.' 'r'1m<·k. William \\'h, ·c.•h• r , Stunlt•y ..;. Whith•m<>n'. Halph W. Wh)'h•. .Jamt•:o( \Y h kman. Leonard 136 Ave .. Susqut•hnnna. Pa. N Y N \'. N. Y. N . Y. N. Y. H. D. 1. Joh noon Cit>'. N. Y. R D I, V,•;tal, N. Y. Wutermnn. C'luir \Vntkins, Gordon Wt.·i~Mmnn. Jiu.~k~on 6 Birch St., Bin1thnmton, N . Y, Wa rner, Hichard Wnrnt•r, Willi!\. 450 H a rry L. Div•·· Johnson Cit y, N. Y. 39 Stet..cm l{<md Tupper Lake, N . Y. llnkshie, N. Y. 'f,•m1,kinl4, Ida Chur,·h S t ., H aJl,t<nd, Pa. Tomv"'ins, Harold l·'. 'fompking, John 22 N Handolph An .. l'oughkt'<'l••ie. N. Y N Y N. Y 132 llt•rch St., R. D. I. Ve>itnl. N. Y. 120 l ,nurel A'•e.. Hing hnmton, N Y. G Du•kinsou Ave .. Bin,zhamton, N Y. Ward, Dunold G. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. N Wnlk,•r, Dorothy Walker, J O<'I H . Walker. Kenneth Wall, Howad R .. Jr. Wullnce, Hurry C. \Val!'.h, Rmw Marit.• 43 l'ine St .. De11o•it. N. Y. Aclam• Cent<-r, N. Y. 1108 E. Mam St., Endicutt. N. Y. 5 T erry Ave., BinS<hnmton, N. Y. R. D. l, l<'riend•ville, Pa. Y Y. Y Y. N. N. N N. N. WaS<oner, Ellwood Wakt•l••Y, Y vonne N . Y. N. Y. N. Y. Y. Y. Y 1!10 H elen St., Binghamton. 20 Oh·ision. Sidney, 57 North St., Bin1<hamton, 68 Mitchell Ave.. Binghamton . 28 Euc lid Ave., Binghamton, Vitkus . Edmund, Jr. Von P<'Chman, H einz Y. N. Y. Mn-.. N. Y N . Y. N. Y 5 16. W . .Main St, t:nclirott, \'nncln, Marcia Moss 20 Campbt•ll Roacl, Uini<hllmt.un, Van f; tten . Ric hard C. 2!1 Ct!clar St., Ui n1<hnmton. Van VolkinburJC, Franklin bHO l'urk Plnrt", .,; lm ira. V<•S<ard, C. Mack 601 ', Ouk Hill Ave.. Jo:n•lit·ott, Vitale, Sam M . . N. Y. N. N. N. N N. Y. Tuthill. William B. Tuttle, Ervin 'fybring, Robert C. Ulmer. Richard E. Unold. H oward J ., Jr. W. C hurch St., J<;lmira, N . Y. New Grant St.. W ilkes-Barre , Pa. 67 Pearl St., Uninbridi:e. N . Y. R . D. 2. 1':1mia, N. Y . 2ri Di visio n St .. Binghamton, N. Y. 36 Dickinson Av<'., Binghamton, 24 Evans St .. BinS<hnmton, 23 Franklin Av<'., Binghamton, 37 Crar)• Ave., UinKhnmto n . l-\7 S. ('lwny St .. l'oughkeep•ie, N. N. N. N. N Turcotte. Robert W . Turin'<>n, Leonard A. Turner, Richard H. Turner, Rob<>rt J . Tuthill. Huth Y. Y. Y. N. N. N. N. 129 St. Ma r ks Place, Brooklyn, 25 Clapp Av'"· Wa ppingers Fall•. 2713 H elen SL. Endicott. 219 Hari·i•on Ave., Johnson City, 1015 Harison St., Syracu••". Truc'9dell. Sally Trusler. John ll. T shulos, James Tucker, Alan S., Jr. Turcotte. Charles ~Oi•.~ 35~ Tnft, Darwin 0. Tink lt:man. True, Jerome B. Gouldboro. Pa. Roo'ev••lt Avf!., llini<hnmton. N . Y . i M unsell St., Binghamton. N. Y. 604 Jennings St .. ~:ndicott, N. Y. SOi'~ W . Church St., Elmira, N . Y. Surplus, Arthur W. Sutlilf, William 0. S wan, Edwnrd S wa rtz. Arla ncl J, S wift, Donald A Thoma.. Frk nk K Thomp•on. Walte r F Throup, Eclwnrd S. Ti llot>on. Davi d Tripp, I.-<'wi s 129 Schubl'rt St., Binirhamton, N . Y. Country Club Road, J ohnson City, N. Y. Interlake n, N . Y. 12 Mitchell Ave., Uin1<hamton, N. Y. .. Uox 533 Wyalusing, Pa. Story, Jeanne Streb. Richnrd W , Stroud, Jam<'f! B. Stuart, Alan Stumpf, John Swift, Wanda E SymonN, Calvun H. Ton1•r. Frank E. Trabucco, J oseph Trns, J amc:-s N. Y. 19 Ansco Road, Johnson City, 8 Highland Ave., Bini<hamton, 161 3 Rugby Road, Schenectady, 17 Bayk'<!s Ave., Binghamton, 101 Adams Ave., Endicott, Singe). J . R ichard Skeir ilc, Norman Slutzky, Sidn<'Y S mith, Anne tte Smith, Durwood i Jclt>Sll Terrace. Vt• .... tnl. N. Y. 510 \V. Ma in St.. F:nd kc>tt. N Y. 425 Front SL. Owt.-.go, N 12r1 Front St. ()\\'('j..:'O, 10!1 M)'i!lllt St.. lli ni<hnmton. 12:. Birdsall St.. ~:ndicott, l ~l Hol>in•on St.. Binghnmton. 95 Maple St., R utherford, Y. N. Y. Y. N N. Y N. Y. N . J. S Wt'!lt•·rly Way. Binghamton. N. Y. 162 Park Ave., llin1thamton, N. Y. :;1 Davi• St.. Binghamton. N. Y. l:l9 l't•url An• .. Johnson City, N. Y. 35 Vine SL. Bini<hamto n, N. Y. 214 St. Chari~ City, N llr. lwn N ({. D. I. Vt .. cal, N St. Joh11 so11 1 iN Wi lJo\\ ~t.. Juhn"on Cit) 14 Kimble: l{c.u<I. \ c· 1111, Y Y. \'. N Y N Y �Widmer, Ilerman Wilcox, Edgar, Jr., Wilcox, Harmon Wilklow. George C. Willet.a, J ohn N. Williams , Donald R. Williams , Harry E. Williams , Mary E. Willson. Harold Wil!lOn, N orman H0-30 Beach Ave., Flushing , 13 Arlhur Av~ .. Endicott, .......26 North St., Ringham ton. White St., Highland . R. D. 1, Greene, N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 316 Floral Ave., John50n City, N. Y. Rushville . Pa. 67 Murray St., llingham tcn, N. Y. 117 McKinley Ave., Endicott, N . Y. 2 Lincoln Ave., Endicott, N. Y. 89-04 148th St., Jamaica, L . I .. Windisch , Frank F. Hinsdale, Wing, Douglaa W. 59 Ch.,,.tnut St., Bingham ton. Winlersw in, Samuel H. 21 Commonw ealth Ave., Middletow n, Wolfi;on, llllrold 42 Bevier SL, Bingham ton, Wood, Calvin N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. 609 Jo:xchange Ave., Endicott.. Wood. Harold D. 387 Riverside Drive, Johnson City, Woodman see, Lee F. R. D. 2, Endicott, Woodwor th, Warren J . 224 Riverside Drive, New York City, Wynn, Mark F . R. D. 2, Vcst.al, Yeager, R. Orville N. N. N. N. N. Y. Y Y. Y. Y. Ziegler, Robert N. Zinn, Richard S .• Jr. Zowinc, Thomas M. Zuidema, John E. R. D. 2, Johnson City, N. Y. 227 Swalhmo re Ave., Swarthm ore, Pa. 21 Lake Ave., Middl<•town, N. Y. lf> Emerson Place, Bingham ton, N. Y. 137 ��139 �Al Kinds of Writing Instruments Repaired for "youse guys" and "gals" 17 Washington Ave. Endicott, N Y. /l/,\/ II l\llUi }'II f/,, I < ''''// .,111/1//, "'" ( ''"''"'''"'". I' (If 1Jt TRIPLE CITIES COLLEGE ,,, Your ENDICOTT THEATRES • STATE • STRAND • • l YRIC '.\1111111 • lu )"utfl lit ELVIN 1/ /; 11/erl.11111111:11(" FOR COLLEGE GOING CLOTHES Correctly Styled, Modestly Priced In goo<l r'1crchond1se, the Best Known Nome!> Are Seen at Mc l •'<.m's �VAUGHN'S NEWING MOTOR CO. FORD CARS AND TRUCKS Home of \111« I< ' I I I Endicott, Nev. York Hart Schaffner & Marx and Botany " 500" Clothe s STUDENTS KNOW . . "/ /, 1/ // • /r tht NEW YORK RESTAURANT f ,,11/>1 B11111/ Lr•u·, 11 1'111< 1 h}(,J ,11 1'11r11/J/1 Union District Phone 1025 Endicott WITH BEST W ISH ES FOR CONTINUED SUCCESS to THE COLONIST and TRIPLE CITIES COLLEGE • HOTEL FREDERICK In Endicott 19 Washington Ave Endicott, N Y �WILSON SPORTING GOODS STRAND CONFECTIONARY THE SPORTING GOODS OF CHAMPIONS Endicott - Washington Ave "Alex" and "Moy" FOR YEAR-ROUND FUN ENDICOTT SUPPLY CO. AMERICAN LEGION POST 82 Endicott, N Y 137 W as hington Aven ue Phone 3276 Endicott , N Y Arr- m11Jit 1011ed /(er/<Jlll"alll DAVID'S 69 Court Street f.1111 0115 /or Y 01111g P.1.1f)f(lllJ DRESSES SUITS COATS SPORTSWEAR FOR THE PARTICULAR DRESSER ITS BEN'S CLOTHES SHOP Q11.zli1; (./o1h111g .111tl /"111111rhmg.1 /~, pu I I 11/,,111 , Corner Main and Willow Street!. Johnson City �TICKE TS and RESER VATIO NS SOCHOR TRAVEL SERVICE Phone 1267- W 1408 North St Endico tt N Y • ALL AIRLINFS Men's Notio nally Adver tised Shoes at Cut Rote Prices DAVE LEWIS SHOE MARKET 12 Court Street Bingh amton , New York ALL STEAMERLINES HOTELS RESORTS TRAVELLERS CHECKS MONEY ORDERS Me etin g the Ch alle nge of A Ch ang ing Th rou gh ED UC AT IO N Wo rld The youth be Complex1t1es of the world about us deman d that our We goal tional educa full their attain given every oppor tunity to its take to hope youth can tion educa h have learne d that only throug 1es <1bil1t respon ond t1ons obl1go the prope r place in the world, and fulfill of democ ratic citize nship in a free n::ition ence to the onscio us of its glo rious herita ge, and with firm adher youth will ican Amer great, princi ples that hove mode this nation -addence confi te resolu with meet the chall enge of a chang ing world life, of way ican Amer the of vancin g to new heigh ts in fulfill ment liberty a nd happi ness. C "Etern al vigilance is the price of Libert y," and the free, unfelte red press of Americ a is the watchd og guardin g the rights and interest s of the people. THE BI NG HA MT ON PRESS �END ICO'TT JOH NSO N TANN ERS and SHOEMAKERS ENDIC OTT, NEW YORK �We Congratul ate THE COLON IST on I ts Initial Issue And Wish It and TRIPL E CITIES COLLEGE Continue d Success ENDICOTT TRUST COMPANY Offices in Endicott and Vestal END ICOTT NATIONAL BANK UNION - ENDICOTT OFFICE Mo rine Midland Trust Company Deposit s insu red up to $ 5,000 for each depo~ 1tor by Federal Deposit lnsuronce Co rporation �THE HEART OF YOUR YEAHUOOK b1f BERTHOLD STUDIO 10 Court Street Binghamton, New York SUISIDIAIY, GOLD TONI STUDIOS, SCHOOL DIVISION Telephone 7 -6955 HARRIS ARMY & NAVY STORE 290 Main Street Johnson City, New York b·erythiJJp, for Sporl, IP'orl .111cl /Jre.r.1 W E. L Hilkins S Krolls E. L. HILKINS CO. THE CAY CO. J EW EL ER S Eve1y1hi1Jg fo1· the Office Our 121 8 North Street Phone 545 Endicott 3211J )'ear 46 Wash ing ton Avenue Endicott, N. Y. Phone 440 �DRESSES SUITS COATS /•'tl'< l<t TRI-PHI SHOPS Bonghoml o n 52 COURT STREET BINGHAMTON, NEW YORK End1coll LITTLE BOOK SHOP John~on 1\ f.ilt' (IJ SW IMMING BASEBALL )'n11t Wotche-. P"n and Pencil Sets Diamonds Clocb Wedding Ronqs Ron~on Lighter> Brocele" Rong Mountings Me n 's Jewelry ond o compl e te •ne of Wotch Bracelets COSTUME JEWE LRY City ff.-.i.fq11,/l/ tl GOLF SOFTBALL RALPH J. ROGERS - I TENN IS BADMINTO N THE HOUSE OF SPORTS HUNTING FISHING In Foci - - - " Eve rything" 2 0046 7 M orn St Binghamt o n WALLACE DRUG STORE 12 Washingt on Avi.:n~JC • MEN'S QUALITY SHOP 51;/e Ce11/t'r Jrn Bnth .\11·11 Jl/J Bo) 1 ECONOMY DRUG STORE 60 Washing ton Avenue 24 6 Morn Street Joh nson City, N . Y ' f 11 / ;11.f1, of/ \//It<' i J}) �HAMMOND'S FLORIST WILBER'S I DEAL FLOIVST CREDIT JEWELERS - DIAMONDS JEWELRY WATCHES Phone 978 • Expert Watch Repairi ng H eadrf"nt ters for G1 ad11,1tirm Gifu • Phone 7 - l 466 7 - 9 Court St - ' \ /' Binghamton 280 Mai n St. J ohnson C ity, N. Y. , HEADQUARTE'RS IN ENDICOTT Fis hing Tackl e Rifl es - Shotgun s - - Ammun ition E. E. INDERLIED HARDWARE CO. 4 Washington Ave. WHAT'S IN A NAME? In HATS It's DOBBS In SHIRTS It's WINGS In T IES It's McCURRACH In HOSE It's WESTMINSTER IN A STORE IT IS-- ~ ENDICOTT'S HABERDASHER �THE COMPLETE DEPARTMENT STORE FOUNDED IN THE INTEREST OF SERVICE TO PARTICULAR SHOPPERS HAMLIN'S WELLS- MESSEMER DODGE - PLYMOUTH - SALES - SERVICE RED CROSS DRUG STORES Oldest Dodge Dealeu in the Tnple Cities Johnson City Binghamton 1302 Main St. Endicott Endicott, N. Y. In the Service of Greater Endicott • ENDICOTT DAILY BULLETIN Complete AP, Local News • RADIO STATION WENE ABC Network Affiloote 1450 on your radio Read! Listen! �THESE ARE IBM PRODUCTS, SERVICES Electri c Punched Card Accounting Machines and Service Bureau Facilities Proo f Machines Electric Test Scoring Machines Electric Typewriters A ttendance Tim e Recordi ng Systems Job Cost Re cording Systems Master Electric Clock Systems Program Signaling Systems Fire A larm Systems Recording Door Locks Laboratory Panels Nurses' Call Systems I BM INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS MACHINES CORPORATION World Headquarters Building, 590 Madison Ave., New York 22, N. Y. �All The Sharp Squire s Shop The Eskuir e THE ESKUIRE Down 1n Union A lexand er a nd W es Ha rvey COLETTl 'S DINER A GOOD PLACE TO EAT I Look Best in . . . MORTON COY CLO TH ES 13 0 4 E Main St. Endico tt, N Y Printers <if The Colonist 48-5 0 Com mer cial Ave. Bing ham ton, New York Dial Bing ham ton 4-32 25 ��� Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1948 - Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Yearbooks Subject The topic of the resource Harpur College -- Students; State University of New York at Binghamton -- Students; Harpur College; State University of New York at Binghamton; Students; Yearbooks Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource <p>Blythe E. Roveland-Brenton, Director of Special Collections &amp; Library Preservation<br />Caitlin Holton, Digital Initiatives Assistant<br />Maggie McNeely, University Archivist<br />Erin Rushton, Head of Digital Initiatives</p> Description An account of the resource <p>Binghamton University’s yearbook was published under several different titles. It was first called <em>The Colonist</em> in 1948, then became <em>The Yearer</em> in 1970, <em>Pegasus</em> in 1973 and finally <em>Binghamton University</em> in 2004. Yearbooks are a popular resource for alumni and can be used for primary source research. Each book typically contains class lists, class photos, candid photos, faculty and academic department information, campus and institutional facts, illustrations and ads, and editorials. They document student organizations, campus events, athletic teams as well as local and global events. Yearbooks offer a window into the traditions and culture of a time and place from the point of view of a select group of students on behalf of the student body. They are among the richest sources of student-driven content for an academic institution. For more information regarding yearbooks and the history of the University, please contact <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a> at 607-777-4844 or speccoll@binghamton.edu.</p> <p>We welcome your comments about <span><span>our collection of digitized yearbooks.&nbsp; <a href="https://binghamton.libwizard.com/id/c6121588e483da04f66dba76f0460bb5">Please share comments via our feedback form</a>.&nbsp;</span></span></p> <p><strong>Acknowledgment of sensitive content</strong><br />Binghamton University Libraries provide digital access to select materials held within the Special Collections department. <span>Historical yearbooks provide a vibrant window into life at the University.</span> However, they also expose insensitive, and at times offensive, racial and gender stereotypes that, though once commonplace, are now acknowledged to cause harm. The Libraries have chosen to make these volumes available as part of the historical record but the Libraries do not support or agree with the harmful narratives that can be found in these volumes. <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/collections/digital/">Digital Collections</a> are created for educational and historical purposes only. It is our intention to present the content as it originally appeared.</p> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <p>The yearbooks in this collection are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in this collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down request policy.<br /><br />If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. When citing documents, researchers / educators should credit Special Collections as the custodian of the collection.<br /><br />The following is a suggested citation: Binghamton University Yearbooks Digital Collection, [yearbook title and year], Special Collections, Binghamton University Libraries.”</p> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1948-1972 Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. <a href="https://archivesspace.binghamton.edu/public/repositories/2/archival_objects/38366" target="_blank" rel="noopener">Binghamton University Student Publications: Yearbook, 1948- present</a> Template: PDF Choose this for any item where the file type is PDF. This template and others do not support mixed file types (PDF and image attached to same item). If you have mixed file types, you can either create another Omeka item or contact Digital Initiatives for assistance converting from pdf to image or vice versa. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Collection Binghamton University Yearbooks Digital Format PDF Identifier dc:identifier THE COLONIST_1948.pdf PDF Layout This field specifies how the pages of the PDF will be laid out. Enter only the CASE SENSITIVE keyword without quotation marks. 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FacingCoverContinuous Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Colonist 1948 Subject The topic of the resource State University of New York at Binghamton -- Students school yearbooks Description An account of the resource Student yearbook of Triple Cities College (1948-1950), Harpur College (1951-1965), and the State University of New York at Binghamton (1966- present). Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Endicott, N.Y. : Triple Cities College ; Binghamton, N.Y. : State University of New York at Binghamton Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available State University of New York at Binghamton Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1948 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In Copyright https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/4525b62ca2a901b7dfdaa444139be635.jpeg 2a5a8b3dbca90c992965d74960ee2e44 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/d57cb0b3669fed6f8a8f7e103d444924.mp3 bdf7a7d568a10675367e38f1ead59ad6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 23 June 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Howard Ruffner Biographical Text Howard Ruffner was born in Cleveland, Ohio. After high school, he joined the Air Force in 1965. His experience with photography started when he worked at the Air Force headquarters in Waco, Texas. After leaving the Air Force, he started college in 1969. While studying at Kent State University, Ruffner started working as a photographer for the university's student newspaper. He was a college sophomore when the shootings of May 4, 1970, occurred. He witnessed and documented this event and his photographs appeared on the cover of <em>Life</em>. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:28:20 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Date of Digitization 23 June 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Kent State shooting; Students; Pictures; National guard; Campus:&nbsp; Taylor Hall; Protest; Photographs; Yearbook; Kent State University; Building; Guard; Photographer; Film; Fire. 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If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Howard Ruffner Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 23 June 2022 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 Alright, can you hear me? HF: 00:03 No, I can hear you fine. SM: 00:04 Okay. Thanks, Howard. I start out, could you talk about your growing up years, where you grew up? What your parents did for a living, where you went to high school, your early interests? And were you the first to go to college in your family, that kind of stuff? HF: 00:20 Well, my name is Howard Ruffner. I was born in Cleveland, Ohio. I grew up in Lakewood, Ohio, attended Lakewood High School. And while I was a student, I worked my sophomore, junior, and senior years after school at various retail establishments in the Lakewood area. As far as growing up, I am the oldest of seven boys, all born eight years apart. And my dad was the general manager for a place that actually made waterproof paper and film. And, he never owned a car. So, the furthest we ever got was any place was any, anywhere anybody would take us. So growing up in Lakewood, we walked to school everywhere. And I graduated school in 1964, spent about a year after that working, and taking an extension course at Ohio State University at the same high school and then decided after that summer, almost a year later from graduation. A friend of mine interested in the Air Force and asked if I wanted to go with him. And I said, "You know what sounds like a good idea." So I enlisted the Air Force in May of 1965, and spent two years in Waco, Texas, and about almost a little over a year and a half in the Philippines as a T.V. director. SM: 02:03 Wow. HF: 02:04 So, when I came back to the states in December of (19)68. I went back to my old job where I was working as a railroad clerk in the accounting department. I worked there until March of (19)69 when I took a leave of absence and, started university at the beginning of March 1969. SM: 02:33 Well, now your parents, you say your dad did not have a car now- HF: 02:39 Right. SM: 02:40 -now at home, did you ever talk over the table about what was going on in America, like the Vietnam War, civil rights, a lot of the movements that were going on? HF: 02:53 We talked about the Vietnam War in terms of being drafted and that kind of effort there. The, I was the, by the way, I was the first person in our family to graduate from high school. And I was the first person to attend college and graduate from college, not the only one. And all of my brothers went to Lakewood High School for college. My parents they did not own a car, but we got along quite well. He bought a house in Lakewood, Ohio, and it could have been a more, could not have been a better location because it was walkable to all the schools we had to go to. Of course that back then walkable was a mile and a half, right? Today. It is today it is two blocks. Even if you go to school today, and it is two blocks away, somebody walks with you. So we did everything alone, right. My first interest my first interest in photography, even though I worked in a camera shop in Lakewood, Ohio for a year I never took a picture never owned a camera. My first experience with photography was when I was in the Air Force, I worked in the Information Office at a headquarters that headquarters trunk Air Force in Waco, Texas. And I did PR releases and like photographer assigned to that base got me interested in photography and set out with a four by five camera taking, taking some pictures of people and stuff like that. So he my first interest became when I got involved with writing press releases and then when they take photographs of people coming back from Vietnam or different parts of the world. SM: 04:47 Well, you were in the military at that time for that period before you went to Kent State. Did you ever experience [crosstalk], go ahead. HF: 04:57 No, I, I made a conscious decision to join the Air Force and realizing that I did not have any way I was going to keep a deferment going. And back then in 1965, if you were drafted- SM: 05:10 Yes. HF: 05:10 -you just got into a line and the person in charge of the line would look at you and say, "You know, we did not get enough recruits the marine, so you are a Marine, or you are a Coast Guard- SM: 05:20 [chuckles] HF: 05:20 -go to the Navy. I did not want to have any of those choices put on me. So I made my own choice. SM: 05:28 That is good you know, that, you are still wearing a uniform at that time. Did you ever experience the anti-war protesters, you know expressing feelings toward people in the uniform, yours or others? HF: 05:42 Not while I was in Waco, Texas, no. SM: 05:46 And- HF: 05:46 Never happened. SM: 05:47 -when you picked on Kent State, what was it about Kent State that, why did you pick that school? HF: 05:55 Well, a couple of reasons. One it was, was relatively close to home, which did not matter because I was not going to be going home anyway. Two it was a state school and I could afford it with the G.I. Bill. And three because it had a strong broadcast program and I wanted to continue my broadcasting work that I started in the service. And I had always, in high school, I did record house with two of my friends, we were always involved with radio. And that was just a natural thing for me to want to be, stay in the media. And that is why I picked Kent State. SM: 06:32 You picked a great school. Yeah, I did not go there. But I tell you, I have visited enough to know what a great university it is. And certainly the students that come from it, having known a lot of the people from the remembrance events. It is a great school. I, obviously, I am going to ask some political questions, too, because you served in the military, you did not go to Vietnam, but you did have concerns. Did you have concerns about America's role in the war? And were you for or against the war? And did you support Vietnam Veterans Against the War, when they came home and like John Kerry, and did those hearings before Fulbright's committee on the Foreign Relations Committee talking about their experiences and how we must stop the war? Your thoughts on any of that? HF: 07:20 I was not for the war. I did not understand why we were in that war, respect to those people who had to go and make their sacrifice. I did not join a protest group per se, because I maintain myself as a journalist first after having gone through the Armed Forces Radio and Television Journalism School. And, so I was against the war. I supported the people against the war. But I maintained my objectivity by being a photographer and reporting on what I saw. SM: 08:14 And what- HF: 08:15 There were no protests in say, Waco, Texas, we took a bus to downtown Texas, downtown Waco every day, and there were never any protests. And in the Philippines, all we did was we heard about things, because I was in the news department over there and quad forces GB. We have heard about the news and what was going on. But it was, did not have much to do with us. We were surprised at things like the Democratic Convention, prior to (19)68, and a variety of things. And when I came back to the states, I came back to Denver, Colorado, and I saw people that were obviously against the war. And it was, it was surprising to me, it was a, I came back to a different culture than when I left. SM: 09:06 Wow. When you were at Kent State, I think you took those pictures on the weekend of April 30 to May 4, 1970. You had already been a student there for one year. And I think you were involved in the student newspaper and maybe the yearbook as well. Could you talk about your very first year at Kent State and what it was like? Were there protests going on, even then, number one? And number two, your experiences with the newspaper and photography? HF: 09:36 Well so, I started at Kent State, March of 1969. And I was unsure of my ability to be a student so I focused on getting my grades and getting stuff before I decided to do anything photographically. And a little after, after midterms for the first semester, first quarter there I thought, "Well, I think I can handle this. So, I need to find a place that offers free film in a dark room." And I did not go to the newspaper, I went to the yearbook office. And I was immediately told, "Sure, have some film and take some pictures." So, I was more aligned with the student yearbook, then the newspaper, although I did do some work for the newspaper. And my second year there after working on the yearbook for the first year, I became editor of the yearbook my junior year at Kent State, and put out the yearbook that had the stars, the red and white stripes, and the protest story inside of it. SM: 10:45 Now, some- HF: 10:47 Go ahead. SM: 10:48 -some of your early photographs, not talking about the protests. You take general shots all over campus or in the community or? HF: 10:56 Well the yearbook staff did not limit my ability to take pictures as I was still learning a lot of different things about photography. So, and I was not involved in any relationships. So, my only focus was getting great and getting an opportunity to take pictures of different groups, different things, gymnastics, rugby, sports. I took pictures of the homecoming queens. I took pictures of anything, all day long, and sometimes there were assignments from the yearbook staff to take pictures of a fraternity or sorority, or get this, or that. But other than that, pretty much left up to my own. And in the 1970 yearbook, you will see a lot more of my work as I was doing photography pretty much, all the time. I mean, any place that can give you a free film back then and a dark room, it was heaven sent. SM: 12:02 That is great. Do you still have any your early photos of, before the tragedy at Kent State? HF: 12:10 I do and the university does. SM: 12:12 Good. HF: 12:13 We have got all the yearbook, photographs and stuff. SM: 12:15 Super, super. In 1970, your background states that you became a stringer for Life Magazine, and covered the entire weekend from April 30th to May 4th. Could you just describe some of the pictures you took? You know, just, just some of the pictures that you remember taking of not only the protesters but also of the National Guard, people, politicians who came. Most importantly, in this particular one, we were more than the pictures. What were you, personally experiencing, you were only a sophomore, and you were a photographer, and you were wanting to take pictures? But this is, I do not know if you were thinking this was a historic happening at that time, but it was. HF: 13:10 Well, first let us get the record set straight here. I liked the pictures from May 1st until May 4th. And I did not become a stringer for Life magazine until the morning of May 4th. And being on campus, Kent State is a suitcase campus, a lot of students go home to visit friends, be with family, or to do a part time job. And so on the weekends, it was a pretty empty place. But, things were happening on campus that were unusual and for me, that was just another opportunity to take pictures and I did not, I did not need an assignment, and I was not thinking anything other than the fact that this is something that is happening and it needs to be recorded and my journalistic instincts said, take pictures because what else are you going to do with your time? So, I was not looking for any kind of historic event or anything like that. So what, what happened was over the weekend, May 1, I took pictures of the bearing of, bearing of the Constitution by the history graduate students. And that was pretty, non-event, 600-1000 students showed up, listened to them at noon. And by the time lunch hour was about to end, the people who organized the bearing of the Constitution realized there was a looser crowd, it was Friday. So they said, "Let us redo this on Monday. Let us go back and revisit what Nixon did and what the Vietnam War is doing, and the Constitution." And so, they were retired from that event waiting to call again on May 4th. They knew that they could not keep a crowd on May 1st, after school, or on the weekend because we would be going home. So, Friday, I did not take any pictures of downtown camp even though I did not, I did not know that, what was going on down there. I did not leave campus, but on Saturday morning, there were lots of rumors, and things that were supposed to happen or might happen about the ROTC building. So, I just followed people around and took pictures during the day. Some pictures that, not that much happened until the school set up marshals, because there was a curfew set on Friday night about being in town Friday night, and they were concerned about what was going on. The curfew extended to the university. And that evening, is when the ROTC building was burned down. I was with the editor of the Daily 10 stator. And before the building actually caught fire, we were there. But he said, "Let us go to, let us go to town." He said, "I heard that the National Guard are already in town." So, we ran down the hill or we kind of walked down the hill toward town and halfway downtown, halfway off campus, we were met by three National Guardsmen with fixed bayonets who came out and stopped us from going into town. And they asked us, "Why, where were we going?" Bill showed his press pass and we both were allowed to leave campus and then come back. We came back as the ROTC building was burning. And I did not get any pictures of that. I did not have the right equipment, flash, or rotation. But I stayed up until two or three in the morning, taking pictures of the fireman putting out the final embers of the building. And took some pictures of people in their dorms, standing, looking outside, looking to see what was happening because about two o'clock in the morning, the National Guard showed up on campus. And I can remember that distinctly because I was surprised to see these, or what I called "half-track," vehicle leading the National Guard onto the campus and surrounding the ROTC building. And I took several pictures of that, that were published in the yearbook and published in my book. The pictures there because I had to, I had to document what was going on. So, about two or three o'clock in the morning, Saturday, which would be Sunday morning. I went back to my dorm, we got up early because I heard that governor, when I got up on Sunday morning I heard that Governor Rhodes might be showing up on campus. And I walked around campus and I took pictures of the ROTC building. People returning to campus, even Saturday, {inaudible]. So this is Saturday, Sunday morning, and Governor Rhodes did show up, he arrived by helicopter or something by the airport. And I went with other photographers and we met in, at the ROTC building with General DeCorso and Mayor Cetrom, and also took numerous photographs of that. Drove to an elementary school where the National Guard were bivouacked, and we took, I took a few pictures there. And then, Sunday was pretty much quiet for me in terms of walking around the campus and just taking pictures here and there. The guards were pretty quiet. Students were interacting with the guard in a way that seemed very friendly. One of the questions I have asked myself is, "Why would a parent bring their students to a campus with nearly 2000 national guards on it, in campus and around town, and be comfortable with that?" Then I thought about it, and I thought, "You know what, they probably felt that because the National Guard was there the, the rioters and the people who were causing the problems were taken care of, and their students would be safe with the National Guard," kind of an oxymoron, if you think about it. SM: 20:23 Right-right. HF: 20:25 It did not work out that way. So Sunday, I know that there was several gatherings of students in different locations, one by the Music of Speech building where I was, that is where we got tear gassed, so we had helicopters flying over our heads. And then there was a [inaudible], and there was a curfew on campus, but students found a way to get off campus, and head up toward the Main and Water Street or on the major intersections of downtown Kent. And I, I followed them out there and I got pictures of them sitting. And the, the whole problem with all that was going on at Kent State was the lack of communication. People today, that remember that we did not have cell phones, we did not have a T.V. in every room. People did not have the kind of information at our fingertips that we have today. And the students who went downtown and sat in the center of the street, asked for one thing, they asked for somebody, a representative from the school to show up and explain what was happening, who was in control. No one was, no one ever showed up. The guard shortened the curfew, and forced the students back onto campus earlier than the original curfew had been set up. They just made the unilateral decision to move students out of downtown Kent and back onto the campus, that Sunday evening. And I have followed students, some students had been banned, and they were in, taken into fraternity houses or, mostly fraternity houses. And I was told I could not come in because they had a wounded student in there, and so I just proceeded back to my dorm until Monday morning. Monday, about 9:30, 10 o'clock, I wandered over to the student newspaper office in Taylor Hall. And it was fairly quiet. We talked about what was going on. But then there was a phone call from Life Magazine, Chicago office, the woman on the phone asked if there was a photographer there who had some pictures from the weekend, and if she could talk to him. So, I was the only photographer who was during the whole weekend, that Bill can remember. So, he gave me the phone and they asked if I would send some prints that day of the weekend. And would I mind taking some pictures of the, whatever happened on Monday, and I agreed to take pictures on Monday, and send some pictures of that evening. That is how I became a stringer for Life Magazine that day, and you are right that, that does change your perspective, even though I-I was doing it on my own without any motivation other than just to capture images of what was going on. Now that Life magazine had given me an assignment, it made it more, gave me more focus. And one of the things that I had done earlier in the week on Saturday, made sure to get a press pass from Major Jones who was with a National Guard. So, I had a National Guard press pass that would allow me to move in and out of the lines, and that is what helped me on May 4th. SM: 24:16 Wow. Now you were, May 4th, when did you take your first picture on May 4th, approximately what time and where were you, when? HF: 24:34 [chuckles] Oh, it had been between 11:00 and 11:30, I was just walking down the hill in front of Taylor Hall and took a picture of the people standing in front of Taylor Hall. And then, I got down a little further and took a picture, a couple pictures of the crowd standing by the victory bell, and I took a few more pictures of that area. And then I thought, you know, there is only so many pictures, I can take of the students here. So, I might as well use my press pass to go down behind the National Guard because, the assignment, and I need to show both sides of the story, and at least see what the National Guard is doing. So, I walk down behind the National Guard lines, showed my press, press pass, had no problems. And all sudden, you realize it was a bigger deal than, than people might have thought it was because local T.V. stations from Cleveland were there, a national reporter named Mike Pappas was there. And they were all very interested in what was going on. I just stood and took pictures with the National Guard with their weapons, with their band, fixed band, [inaudible] ones. As they marched, as they drill, not drill, but as they gathered by the front of the ROTC building and we were about ready to go uphill. All this happened between 11:30 and say, 12:15. And around, around 12:15 or so, a jeep pulled up near the crowd and said, "You need to disperse and leave this area immediately. This gathering is not permitted, you need to leave this area immediately. Please disperse." And, the sad thing is that there was nothing going on other than students were chanting, and giving the guard the finger, and throwing stones that fell way short of the 300 or so yards that the National Guard was standing away from them. And there was no, there was no riot involved, there was no rushing of students at anything. And shortly thereafter, that is when the guard was told, "We need to break up this crowd." Now this goes back to the same situation, on Friday, May 1st, had the crowd been allowed to wait until one o'clock instead of 12:30, probably would have broken up by itself it already was divided. There was on the ground, maybe 3 to 500 students who are actual protesters, but behind them were people who are either on the way to class, or just observing. And then on top of that, there was another layer of people just observing, some people who are supporting them, but you know, on a campus of 18,000 students, you really only had 3 to 500 students were protesting, and whoever else was in that area was just an observer. And so, the guy decided to move up the hill and disperse the crowd. And I believe they did this without any reconnaissance because they had no idea how big the campus was. And they went up both sides of Taylor Hall to one side between Johnson Hall and Taylor Hall to Prentice Hall, Taylor Hall on the left. They chased students up there and then they get themselves trapped in a football field, the practice football field, which has a chain link fence that goes around three sides. And they had to make a decision as to how they were going to, what they were going to do next in terms of dispersing the crowd or not. So, there was a crowd of students across the street from the practice football field, and there was a street that separated the two, and the guard had a choice of going back down to the practice, to the ROTC building area through Prentice Hall and Taylor Hall. Or, to again confront the students and cause them to just disperse by going straight ahead and then making a right hand turn and going down between Johnson and Taylor Hall. Well, the interesting part is that to go up to Johnson and Taylor Hall would mean that they would have to climb an elevation of about 20 feet, would put them in a higher elevations than the parking lot and the practice football field. And, as they made their climb, that is the place. That is the point at which, between Taylor Hall and the pagoda structure, Guardsmen who somehow got to the very back of the line was moving up the hill, turned, some kneeled down a little bit, and fired their weapons. And I was about 80 feet in front of them and to the, to the side, John Clary, and Joe Lewis, who were within an area that I was within, and they were both shot. So, that was a pretty eye-opening experience- SM: 26:56 Wow. HF: 26:57 -because no one expected that and no one expected live ammunition. Even if they turned and fired, it was, they were shooting blanks, or shooting, maybe rubber bullets. I grabbed my cameras and knelt down on top of this grating in front of Taylor Hall. And when I started to get up, I was told, "Stay down, sit down, oh my god, they are shooting real bullets. People are bleeding up here. So, do not get up." SM: 31:14 Wow. HF: 31:15 So, that is how that event took place, pretty, pretty frightening that they actually shot real bullets. And again, I, I kind of sucked my emotions and just let my camera work for me because I took a picture of Joe Lewis, took a picture of John Clary, I got up and I started walking down towards the practice football field. I was told by some girls not to take pictures, I said, "No, my job is to take the pictures, somebody has to document this." And that is when I went down, I saw Jeffrey Miller lying in the street. And I turned to my right a little bit and I saw Mary Vecchio, I took several photographs of her, those appeared in Life Magazine. And I kept taking pictures of people, and their reactions to what had just happened. And it was, just an unreal experience walking around campus at that point in time- SM: 32:20 Oh man. HF: 32:20 -because nobody knew what was going to happen next. And you know, Alan Frank said it best when he said, you know, "Stay down, do not let, I cannot be a part of this. Do not let them shoot any more of you." Because the guard was scattered over the campus then, if you, if you take a careful look at some of the photographs, and not just mine, but many of them, you will see that even though the students are like in a huddle in a big circle, someplace. If you look close enough, you will see the guard, not too far away. SM: 32:56 Wow. HF: 32:57 And that was, that was what was scary, so. SM: 33:01 Did it ever, during this terrible, terrible happening, ask yourself, "Where is, where is the leadership of this campus? Where is the administration? Where are they?" And, and I, and then also, correct me if I am wrong, it was my, my information is that they were protesting against the expansion of the war into Cambodia. And that was initially, and then when the guard came on campus and showed their, their stuff that they were upset that the National Guard had, had come on to their campus. So, it was as much protesting against the war as it was against the, the National Guard being on their campus. And, and then the shooting. Oh, my God. Just your thoughts on that. Where was the administration? HF: 34:03 Well, my understanding is that the president of the university had just returned from a trip, I think it was to Iowa, and he was now having, during this time having lunch with General del Corso, a local restaurant. And the administration had more or less given control of the university to the governor and to the National Guard. SM: 34:31 Unbelievable. HF: 34:31 And, and the students. Like I said the evening before, I had asked for somebody from the administration to talk to them, and no one came forward. So the administration, from my standpoint, failed because they did not have control of the campus. They let the campus becoming military state and gave up. If you look at the pictures, even the administration building had National Guardsmen in front of the main door letting people in or out, so. SM: 35:04 Yeah, that is, this is an understatement. That was a massive failure in leadership at the administration level of the university, but it does show, which you already mentioned Mr. Frank and Mr. Lewis and others, faculty members who, who came to the scene, and were there with the students and trying to bring some sort of peace, and you know caring about the students. I mean, that says a lot about your faculty on campus. They deeply cared about the students that they were teaching. Yet, the administration was not there caring about the students that have applied and yeah, it just it was a terrible happening. And were you personally upset with the National Guard because they were on campus? HF: 35:53 Oh, yeah, I thought it was, I thought it was abysmal to say the least. You know, I just had no idea why they were, why they were on campus, because the ROTC building was done. There did not seem to be any other rumors, or anything going on around, other things happening. And it just made no sense that the National Guard, and what also does not make any sense is, why did the National Guard have fixed bayonets- SM: 36:26 Yes! HF: 36:27 -the whole weekend? Fixed bayonets are for hand to hand combat, concentration, close range stuff. And this is, a college campus with students, why do you need to have a fixed bayonet? When the Ohio State [inaudible] came on campus, they had batons. That is all they had. I mean, that is all they carried in their hands. SM: 36:56 Wow. HF: 36:57 They did not need a fixed weapon of any kind to show that they had control of the situation. SM: 37:04 In the afterwards of the tragic, I am going to say, Alan would say the killings. And, you know, I know, even Dean and John and they would say the killings at Kent State, quit saying the tragedy, the killings at Kent State. HF: 37:20 Yeah. SM: 37:21 The thing is, who gave them that order? Who's the person responsible for telling them to have the, the bullets? I know, they had a lot of trials afterwards. But, did they ever come up with a final, who gave the final order for that? HF: 37:39 To have weapons loaded? SM: 37:40 Yes. HF: 37:43 That is not something I can address. I do not know who gave them that order, or why they had fixed bayonets. I mean, they came off the trucker strike. And they had been shot at during the trucker strike, but did not shoot back. Here they were getting stones thrown at them that cannot even get close to them. And they, they fired back at students. A lot of unanswered questions, because no one knows. There is lots of rumors as to somebody gave an order to fire. But to me, it does not matter if somebody gave an order or not gave an order. Some people had it in their mind that they were going to turn to fire, and they did. SM: 38:34 Governor Roads being, being on campus did not help the situation. I know he is running for office and- HF: 38:41 Yeah, I forgot about that. SM: 38:43 Yeah, and he was talking law and order. Well, guess who talked law and order, it was President Nixon and Spiro Agnew, who were going all over the country making comments about any other protesters, they were. So you know, he came and he was elected, in part because he used law and order as one of his- the issues that he was going to come into the presidency for. And because there is a lot of activism going all over the country, and civil rights, and you know all the movements that were happening, certainly the anti-war movement in Vietnam, and here, you know, you can look the, I do not know how the president of Kent State could have survived his presidency. If he was sitting down, in downtown and he was out of town, and he comes in town, and he was sitting with a military leader, and not sending anyone in his place to kind of calm students down, or talk with a National Guard, or talk with anybody in authority. The governor, you know, it boggles the mind, basically. HF: 39:47 He had given up his authority. I need to take a break for five minutes. SM: 39:53 Okay, let me turn my tape off here and I will leave my- HF: 39:58 I will be right back. SM: 39:58 -yep. Okay, we are all set. Yep. One of the questions I wanted to ask you is that, I read someplace that you were working on taking pictures, but you even gave a camera to John Philo? HF: 40:16 So [crosstalk], as the National Guard dispersed the crowd in front of Taylor Hall, after the crowd was already gone the, National Guard was on both sides of Taylor Hall. John Philo and I met at the base of the hill, [inaudible] hill. And John said, "You have an extra lens I could borrow, I have only got a wide-angle lens," and I said, "I have got a short telephoto lens." So, I gave him my telephoto lens to use. And he took that, and then he said he was going to go off the left side and I said, "I will go off the right side." And then we split, and we just continued covering the event. So yeah, that was a true story. And I subsequently gave that lens to Kent State University, so. SM: 41:15 Wow. HF: 41:16 Anyway, so the whole [crosstalk], huh? SM: 41:20 That and he used that camera to take that picture that won the Pulitzer Prize, right? HF: 41:25 Yeah, he used that lens. SM: 41:27 Wow. I hope you he thanked you. [laughter] HF: 41:32 He did. SM: 41:34 Now, you were, I am just curious about what the student newspaper staff was doing at the time that you were taking pictures because obviously they were around someplace, recording all this. Did the, in the student newspapers over a several day period, before the campus was shut down, were they writing opinion pieces or articles on what was going on? HF: 41:58 I could tell you I was not involved. SM: 42:00 Alright. HF: 42:02 Seriously, I was I, so after the, taking pictures that day, and they told us that the university was closed. I continued to take pictures of students as they marched or walked toward their dormitories to get their equipment and their gear, clothing, books, whatever they needed, to leave campus. I stayed until about six or six-thirty, I had to call Life Magazine back to find out what they wanted me to do with my film and the stuff I, the pictures I had taken. And I was told to put everything in a box, they bought a seat for it on an airplane out of Akron. And to, give it to somebody at the, just get it there and put it on the plane and they would get it in Chicago. And so, I did not have a car. So, one of my photographer friends, Fetterman drove me to the airport and later drove me home that night. So, I was busy getting my own stuff out of there. And, again, when we talked about the campus closing, I mean, people did not have cell phones, we did not have Uber, they had to find their own way home. And as you know, the people said the telephone lines on campus were not working. So, it was it was a tough situation for lots of students, how to get ahold of their parents, or find a way to get into town, get a bus, get something. I am sure there was some help that I did not know about because I was worrying about my own way of getting around. And that was, that was a big issue. And then the, then after everybody left, the National Guard searched all that rooms for anything that would be incriminating, and took any film, or anything that would be something that they thought they could use later. SM: 44:15 They went into the residence halls and did that? HF: 44:18 Yes, all the residence halls. SM: 44:20 I did not know that. HF: 44:22 Yeah, I think you could check with somebody else on that, but verify the fact that the rooms were searched and anybody who left a camera or left film, unexposed film, that was taken. SM: 44:34 Well that is another legal issue, that the university, no university should allow that to ever happen. Wow. Well, again, lack of leadership there at the school protecting the rights of students and their property, my goodness. Did you know any other students, any of the students who were killed or wounded at Kent State before this tragedy? HF: 44:58 I did not know any of the students who were killed at Kent State or any of the students who are wounded. I got to know Dean Kahler when he, I donated some large prints to the university. And Dean came up to me and said, "You know, that is the last photograph of me standing." So, it was taken before the shooting, and it was taken just, you know, while the crowd was growing. So, that is how Dean and I connected. But other than that, I did not know Alan Canfora, even though I know I have got pictures of him with the black flag. Alison Krauss, I had taken pictures of in 1969, when she helped protest the war on Vietnam by leading a group marched through downtown, the city of Kent. I learned of all these people through my photographs, and it is quite sad. SM: 45:36 Right. Now John- HF: 46:06 To know that, you- SM: 46:07 -you go ahead. HF: 46:08 -go ahead. SM: 46:08 No, you go ahead. HF: 46:09 You know, it is quite sad to look at the pictures. I gave a talk at Hanoi University in 2016, and I showed them a PowerPoint. And in the PowerPoint, I would show students with books in their arms and then I will say, "Oh, that is Sandra Scheuer. She is going to be dead in 20 minutes. That is William Schroeder, he is going to die in 25 minutes." SM: 46:38 Woah. HF: 46:39 And it brought tears to the students at the university because they realized the sacrifice that some students made to help in the war in Vietnam. SM: 46:49 Wow, that was powerful. Your book is full of unbelievable pictures. And I know it is hard to pick, but I am going to ask you to pick, if you can, just a few of the ones that you are most proud of, or the ones that stand out in your mind of the, the best picture you took on the National Guard, you took a lot of them, is there one that stands out? HF: 47:16 Well, it stands out would be like, for them, there was four heads in the back of their heads [inaudible] as they marched toward the guard that stand out to me. There was, there was a couple of them there. SM: 47:38 How about- HF: 47:39 Well there is one of them, in downtown Kent that is a silhouette of the National Guard with cross bayonets and in front of a service station window, and you can see bayonets in the air and their silhouettes. SM: 47:51 Wow. HF: 47:51 It was the day before. SM: 47:55 How about the best pictures of the protesters? HF: 48:03 Well, the crowd shot that is, just shows them standing there, Mary Beko with her dog, you can see just with this raised finger, yeah just that, the beginning crowd shots there. And the guard shot that stands out to me that, is one of those that was taken just as they fired their weapons because they fired, and I took a picture of them as they turned and fired. And then I got down but, as I am getting down you will see in the picture that there is one guy who looks like he has got his gun aimed for me so that stands out a lot. SM: 48:48 Did you think you were a goner? HF: 48:51 Well I know that I was standing up there and I had a, back then I had an old 200-millimeter lens which stands out pretty far, and another lens in my camera and I thought you know, "I probably look pretty silly up here, look like a target." So, I turned and went down on my knees, and. SM: 49:08 Wow. HF: 49:09 So no, but I was 6, I was only 20 feet behind, I think it was Joe Lewis, who was the first one shot. He was supposed to stand 60 feet. I was 80 feet. So- SM: 49:21 Now- HF: 49:22 -yeah, I was quiet, close enough. SM: 49:24 How about, are there any of the state troopers and the, you know the-the politicians that came to stand out? HF: 49:35 Well, yeah, they have got some nice, she would call, nice journalistic images of Governor Rhodes inspecting the ROTC building and standing with Mayor Cetrom, and General del Corso. So, got other pictures that stand out, what are this? SM: 49:58 How about the best of the downtown shots and the, or the campus shots, just when? HF: 50:04 Oh, downtown. We are using the light of the helicopters to take a picture of the students sitting down, downtown. SM: 50:12 Wow. HF: 50:13 That stands out to me. It did not have you know, back then, the equipment was a little bit different than it is today too. So, you had to be a little more in touch with your equipment, than, than that so, you did not have time to run up and take light meter readings, or even if you had a camera with a light meter in it. It is still a lot of guesswork. SM: 50:36 Summers in the last couple of years you met with John Cleary. Now, did you? Did you stay in touch with John, when he saw that picture? Did you stay in touch with John over the years, or was this kind of a first meeting? HF: 50:51 We met for the first time with at Kent State University in 2019 when I, when I, when I shared my book, we had a book signing ceremony. Yeah, so that is the first time I met him. And I shared with him some more pictures that I had of him that were never published. SM: 51:10 Wow. HF: 51:11 So yeah, John and I, we stay in touch on Facebook, but we are not, you know, buddies, in that sense. We are just good. We just have something mutual in common that we both respect and both understand. SM: 51:24 Right. What happened to your film after it was shipped off? Because you, I guess that they had to, you did not know what the pictures were. I mean, you had not seen them. HF: 51:38 Oh that is right. SM: 51:39 So, what happened to your pictures? And most importantly, and I am so pleased that they came back to you, and they are yours. HF: 51:49 So here is two stories. One, I had a handful of negatives that I gave to the life reporter that were taken between 1969 and, and they were actually probably all 1969, and maybe a few from the first, no, I do not think anything from May 1, but 1969. And they have been lost and I am lucky I found some. But the film, I just put in a box, I sent to Life Magazine, they called me at two o'clock in the morning to tell me they could not find it. Then, they called me an hour or two hours later and told me they finally got the box of film, and then we were going to send her off via processing. I think it was about a week later, not quite a week later, maybe three days, two or three days. I got a call again, real early in the morning, one or two o'clock in the morning saying that one of the photographs that I had taken was going to be used for the cover of Life Magazine. And that was interesting, because I had not seen any of the negatives, the FBI had come to my house, asking to see all my prints. And I had yet to see anything other than the cover of Life Magazine and the images inside. And the fact that they put a picture of me inside of the editors, editors page. The, the photographs, were in the hands of Life Magazine, and then the FBI came to my house when they wanted me to identify who they thought were radicals on campus. And you know, a lot of people get concerned about what the FBI is going to do. But in this particular case, the truth stands for itself. I mean, you are not going to, no one is going to get identified as a radical that I know because, they are not. But the FBI kept demanding and seeing my negatives, and my pictures and I told him, I said, "You know, they are not mine. They belong to Life Magazine, and I have not seen any of them. And as they left my house, they said, "Well if that is what you want to do with your gov. money, Mr. Ruffner." And because I never agreed to share them with them I guess. Life Magazine, Life Magazine made a decision that they did want to get involved with, you know, in a case about having the FBI come to them and say they want the negative, and the prints, and they did not want to get involved with all that stuff. So, they sent me a photo of the negative that they had of mine, and actually a friend of somebody else's too. That, they just sent me a box, full of prints of every negative, and they sent me the negatives, and they said, "We are going to let you handle this." So, it was my deal. SM: 55:04 Wow. HF: 55:08 It was a big deal. I mean, having all those, it was the first time I saw them, so I obviously took my time and went through all the pictures, and looked at them in quite amazement as to what I actually had. Because even though you think you know what you have, when you are taking the pictures, you do not really know, so. And the fact that they chose one of mine for the cover, even though there were other people there who had similar photographs, it was quite a feather, so. SM: 55:37 Were there other photographers besides you and John Philo? HF: 55:40 Oh, tons. Campus newspaper, photographer, the campus, campus photographer who worked for the University was there, two of them, they have pictures of John Cleary. Call it very, very similar to my pictures. I mean, any picture could have been used. So, yeah. SM: 56:03 Wow. Now, when it was all over, when the, May 4th, and people are going home, the school shut down, of course. You know, the shootings, as you well know, set a wave of protests all over the country, and anywhere close to 275-300 schools were truly affected by this. And as far as Kent State goes, how was the campus when you returned in the fall? I mean, and honestly, I want to know how you felt, because you are an individual student, you were still a sophomore. I know you might be a little older, because you served in the military. But still, you were a young, you were a young student, and you were doing your job. But now, you know that this is affected the entire nation. You got the Time, Newsweek out there. So, you are a part of history. As a young person, how did you deal with this? HF: 57:06 Well, let us start with fact that I kept coming back to the university before school started, because people would want to have a walk through. Rolling Stone wanted to walk through, this news group wanted to walk through. And I was one of the people they, they called to help walk people through the campus. And then, even though the campus was closed, and it did open for summer school, and I attended school summer school that year. And I took regular courses, and it was like nothing ever happened other than the fact that it did happen. Does that make sense? I mean, things went on as normal, was not, summer school is different than a regular university, regular university time. But yeah, I went onto school and then in the fall, fall started. I got involved. I was just selected to be the editor of the 1971 yearbook, which would include the, the killings of the poor students in the routing of the night. And it was my decision as to how to deal with that in the yearbook. And I do not know if you have seen the yearbook, but Kent has always been to me, a mild campus. It is not like Columbia's or other places where they have a lot of radicals who get up on their soapbox all the time. And it is a conservative school. So, I did the yearbook in a way that shows that the shootings interrupted what would have been a normal school year. I do not know if you have seen the yearbook or not. SM: 57:53 Yes. I have not, I have not seen the yearbook, no. HF: 59:04 Yeah, that is The Timeline. SM: 59:07 Okay. HF: 59:10 So yeah, that was quite-quite beautiful. SM: 59:15 You went and you stayed, you stayed with that yearbook till you graduated? HF: 59:25 I edited the yearbook that year, and I stayed with the yearbook, but did not do a whole lot my senior year. I did not do a lot of photography for it. I had already gotten, I have gotten married within that time, and my focus was on getting my grades, and graduating, and I graduated. I started to camp in March of 1969. And I graduated in December of (19)71. So, even editing the yearbook I got out of there fairly quickly. SM: 59:59 Yeah. When you did graduate, there were more trials to come at Kent State over the football field, the trials of the families who lost loved ones, lawsuits, and do you kind of cover that in any way? HF: 1:00:19 Let me say that. I was a witness of the Scranton Commission hearings at Kent State. Then I was the lead witness in the two civil cases in Cleveland, Ohio, against the guard, and I was the lead witness because I introduced all the photographic evidence. And it took three days on the witness stand. And the, the attorney for the National Guard was a very, very good attorney. And he was very difficult, but I introduced all that stuff. And then, and then when the second trial came, I was also the lead witness. And by the time I had finished, and the second witness was called, they had agreed to the settlement which they announced, which was the monetary settlement, and a letter by the National Guard that everybody else said there is an apology, but they, they disagree. So I, in second trial, I believe was in 1988. And I have to say that, Kent State has been part of my life every year since then, because of the, because I was in a unique position to have photographs for the entire weekend. I got calls from media, I got calls from eighth grade science history students who wanted to do, there is a history competition every year for eighth graders. I became involved and I am still involved as we are right now, still involved with the Kent State shootings. And, it has been a part of my entire life. SM: 1:02:21 Wow. It, what were the final results of those hearings? There was a- HF: 1:02:29 Well the National Guard awarded [crosstalk]- -it was against the National Guard and Governor Rhodes we do not want to forget that. And in the state of Ohio had to pay, I forget what it was right now. The total amount of money but and the, the primary amount of money was going to go to Dean Kahler because he had been living in a wheelchair for so long that it was felt that he should be given something to live on. And I think the total amount of money was over $450,000. Do you recall? I am not sure. But the families of the four that died, they were compensated, then. SM: 1:02:31 -yes. HF: 1:03:23 Yeah. SM: 1:03:24 Yeah. And all- HF: 1:03:26 They-they did not get much in return in terms of monetary. They, the idea was to get the guard to admit that they did something wrong. SM: 1:03:34 Right. HF: 1:03:35 And Dean Kahler got the majority of the settlements. SM: 1:03:39 The question, Howard, that you have probably been asked 100 times, maybe more, was the question that came up about maybe about, 12 years ago at one of the remembrance events that Alan Canfora opened up with, that they have a tape where somebody taped the person giving the order to shoot. Now, I do not know what has happened since that remembrance event. But, others said they thought they heard it too. Did, when you are there you are close, did you hear any money give the order? HF: 1:04:04 I did not hear anything from where I was. And I was as close as anybody. And like I said earlier, to me, it did not matter if-if there was an order because if there was an order, I only think there was a predetermined decision by a group of guardsmen to get to that point on the hill, which was the highest point on the campus at that place, and turn and fire because others behind them are totally surprised and if they say some things like though they heard a gunshot, well, everybody would have heard a gunshot. But even General Canterbury is in that photograph of the guard firing, and he looks totally surprised. So for me, it does not matter if somebody said fire or not. There was an action that required some kind of coordination between different folks to turn on fire. SM: 1:05:25 And they knew there were bullets in there too. HF: 1:05:30 Yeah, yep, they did. SM: 1:05:31 They knew they were not blanks. HF: 1:05:34 There were armor, some of them had armor piercing bullets because they went through the steel sculpture. SM: 1:05:39 Unbelievable. Yeah, that hole in this, yep, that whole skill sculpture is still there. After Kent State and let people know what your career what your what happened with your career beyond college. I think that is very important. HF: 1:05:56 Well, I went to work for, I was a photographer's assistant for a commercial photographer for almost a year. And when I decided that, that was not going to go anywhere, I chose to go to Ohio University to get a degree in something that was not production oriented, I wanted to get a degree in something that was not easy for me to do, like take pictures or run T.V. cameras. So, I got, I got my master's in communications research, which was statistics. So, and after that, I went and worked for cable T.V. for a while. And then, I did a little freelance photography and moved back to Cleveland and kind of traveled with Ohio Bell where I was a writer, photographer, and all-around PR type person, and did my career with AT&T in New York, New Jersey, retired in Denver, Colorado, in government affairs. But during that entire time, I can tell you that I did give many talks at Kent State at many different locations. So yeah, my career even though I did not pursue a photographic career in its traditional sense, while at AT&T I did a lot of photography, and made photography part of my job description regardless of what kind of job I had. So, did multimedia shows I did film, I did video, produced a lot of, wrote scripts. So yeah, I had a good career and, and having had the Life Magazine and the George Polk award for photojournalism, that certainly opened the doors and did not hurt me getting inside AT&T getting into AT&T in Ohio, giving me recognition for what I was doing. SM: 1:08:02 The thing is, I think it is great that you did this book, that it is connected to Kent State, that you are still going out, and speaking about it. These are, this is something that should never be forgotten in our history. And this is all important. One things from going, I did not go this year, because I had an operation, I wanted to go to the remembrance event. But, I think four years, I think was four years ago was my last one. But there were several, several remembrance events where some of the panels talked about the fact that the truth is still not known. And the truth is, you know, like, who gave the order, like your speculation about those possibly played plan by us, certain number of National Guard. It is the it is the unknown truth that still haunts the people who want to know the what really happened. And the truth needs to be known because of the four who died. And, and so I think that, I do not know, have you heard anything more about the person who came several years back when Alan was here regarding the shooting, and that somebody gave an order then he had a tape? HF: 1:09:15 Oh, there is, somebody found a tape. They sent it to an expert. That expert said he was able to unscramble the tape enough to actually here an order to fire. The person who, the audiologist who did that discovery has since passed away, which, I guess hurt their case about taking that to court and saying, "Here is my proof." But other than that there has been nothing else said about that tape in quite a while and I have to ask people, I mean, what? If somebody gave an order of fire, how does that change, anything? If there was no the order to fire, it is more of a conspiracy. So, this whole thing is going to go down like John F Kennedy. SM: 1:10:25 It is true. HF: 1:10:26 There is going to be rumors and myths about what really happened. But, you know, in this case, I know for a fact, as I sat there and witnessed it, as I stood there and witnessed it, the National Guard turned and fired, and I did not hear a shot before me, you will look at the evidence, there was nothing thrown at them to cause them to turn and fire. There is nothing on the ground. No, Kent State is a manicured campus. Taylor Hall is a manicured piece of property because it is one of the showcases on the University at the time. There is no rocks lying around, there is no, you know, so somebody is going to have to convince me otherwise. But I just feel that there is the conspiracy. And if you will notice that, if you go and look at all the records, you will notice that the people who turn and fire are almost all from the same unit, so. SM: 1:11:25 And of course, the National Guard, just like students, they are now a lot older, and many are dying. So, who were who were there, because time has a chance to affect everything. You still- HF: 1:11:44 Except the fact that those who turned and fire were older than the National Guard. SM: 1:11:50 What was their age? HF: 1:11:52 I could not tell you that, but, but they were a part of the 107 Calvary, and they were an older unit. SM: 1:11:58 Wow. Alright. You still stay in touch with John Philo? HF: 1:12:06 Not really. No, we-we, of course, we get together on Facebook like everybody else. But, he has his life and I have mine. We are both happy with that. SM: 1:12:19 In your future, have you, have you taken pictures that you are just as proud of as the ones at Kent State in your later career, and what would those pictures be? HF: 1:12:37 Yeah, I promised myself that the last picture published by me would not be a picture of Kent State. I had an opportunity to lead a group of people to China. And some of those were my favorite photographs of foundries in China. That is something not everybody would get an opportunity to do. So, I have continued my photographic work in different ways. The annual report for the Colorado Red Cross one year, and took pictures of people from Bosnia. So, I try to continue my photographic work in ways that will surpass, although it will change, but I do not want to be known only as a Kent State photographer. So, I have been putting a lot of my work on Getty Images right now. SM: 1:13:38 Oh okay. HF: 1:13:39 Kind of spread, I got many pictures while I was in the service of popular people like Bob Loeb, and Art Linkletter, Raquel Welch you know, so I have, with General Westmoreland. I worked for, so I, you know, I continue to do photography. And right now, I am not doing what photography, I am retired. My wife and I, I have seven grandsons, we were spending more time with our grandsons, and doing kind of family photography. Nothing. We are not doing it professionally. I am just doing it as a snapshot or snap-shotter. SM: 1:13:55 Wow. I just have a couple more questions here. They are general questions. And, many people say the killings at Kent State changed the lives, changed lives forever, especially if you were a college student in the, in the United States of America. It was a shock to the youthful Boomer generation like Pearl Harbor. And FDR's death was a shock to the greatest generation. It changed. It changed mine forever. I do not know if you knew this. Alan knew it real well that I was going I go to law school and I changed everything. And when that happened, I was a senior at Binghamton University, and I graduated 1970. And I wanted to go and become a college administrator. So that, what happened at Kent State or Jackson State never happened again, I played in, I would play my own small role in that. And my story is not, is pretty typical. What happened to Kent State, to me is historic in a way that, way beyond the people even participated in it. HF: 1:15:38 Oh yeah. SM: 1:15:38 Because many people have written histories about the (19)60s say that, that tragedy, at Kent State, at a college that was not a radical college, but it was, you know, it was not known for that. But it happened there. And that showed to Middle America, and too, that the war had to end. And so-so that is what from historians’ point of view, but also from an individual point of view. And obviously, this has shaped your life, like no other. Do you ever have flashbacks? HF: 1:16:14 No, I do not have time for flashbacks because everything is for me, for me it is always still too current. You know, it is like our conversation today. I remembered, I can feel it. But not as a flashback, it is as a real happening that I live with all the time. As far as how it changed things, one of the things I think it changed, in its, its colleges today no longer pretend to offer a liberal arts education. They are not looking for students to be liberal arts thinkers and be generalists in that sense. A lot of schools have given up their- a degree in a liberal arts field that does not have any workplace recommendation. So to me, colleges have changed they are more, you go to college to get a job, and you get to go, you get into a program that your first two years are your regular stuff. But then you are really focused on being an engineer, being an architect, being a political science, but a liberal arts part of colleges has really become, you do not see history majors as much anymore, or English majors. Therefore, there are different schools. SM: 1:17:41 Yes. That is a very good analysis, that is so true. What do you want your, go ahead. HF: 1:17:51 No, I just, nothing. SM: 1:17:53 What do you want your legacy to be? HF: 1:17:58 [chuckles] SM: 1:17:59 In your own words, what do you hope your legacy will be? HF: 1:18:02 That my book, on Ken State is a factual and truth telling book, because I wanted people to remember, for sharing the truth about something that was so horrific, and something that should never have happened, Kent State should never have happened. Sargent Snyder gives a talk at Kent State, and I got to hear it on a podcast once. And I disagree with it completely, because during the podcast, he says, "Just before the shooting, sometime before the shootings," he said, "Somebody decided to declare what was happening at Kent State. Students at one end, National Guard another end, somebody said this is a riot. Well, it was not a riot, but the National Guard was given permission then to go up and disperse the crowd, and because they had bayonets, and stuff and weapons, they can shoot people, and Governor Rhodes gave them that permission days ago and took advantage of it." But it should never have happened. There was never a riot. Students were at one end, guards another round. It is like it is like we have learned today, take time, let things fizzle out, and oftentimes and in very tense situations. So, the best thing to do is to let things fizzle out. That should have been what happened at Kent State and there was no need for anybody to die and no need for any of the guards to be shooting or they should, they should have said at that point in time. He should have said, "We have got this under control National Guard, you may pack up and leave your bags, leave and take your bags with you." It would have been fine. SM: 1:18:02 Yeah. HF: 1:18:25 Nothing would have happened. SM: 1:20:15 That is why the lack of leadership that we mentioned earlier that it was in the administration. I think one other thing is about Jackson State that happened, like about 10 days later. HF: 1:20:26 Yep. SM: 1:20:26 And I think Kent State is so right on the students who have been leading these remembrance events for a long time, are so ahead of America as a whole, because it was Kent State, who made sure that what happened in Jackson State is not forgotten either. And then what happens there toward African American students, and what happened at Kent State, which was predominately white students. They are all one. And even though they tried to say that the protest of Jackson State was about, about the Vietnam War, it was not about the Vietnam War, it was about racism. It was about the history of racism within that area, and Jean Jung bless his soul, came many years to campus, I met him I actually had dinner with him once when he was here on campus. And, you know, that is what Kent State should be remembered for. Also, with this tragedy is that they cared about another campus that went something, a Black college campus in Mississippi, and saw the linkage between the between the killings at their school and the killings at Kent. HF: 1:21:46 Undeserved with very little justification, no justification [chuckles]. SM: 1:21:56 Yeah, that, you know, I am interviewing another person on that later today, or tomorrow. I guess I am just some final thing. So who do you just a general question, I got three more, and that is it. Why, who was responsible for the Vietnam War? I know we went to war, and we can blame a president. But in your view, everything has dots. The history is about dots. And when Kent State happened, there was a dot directly to it linked to a Vietnam War, and to a president. But it was something, dots go back on this too. So your thoughts, what caused, who do you blame for the Vietnam War? HF: 1:22:40 I blame Nixon because, he did a lot of fakery stuff and stopped Johnson from ending the war. And you can read the history about that. But he, he did some things to cause the Vietnamese people to support his position and not go to peace talks as they had planned with Johnson. So, I blame him for continuing what he did. SM: 1:23:14 Could you also kind of talk about the great things that have happened to Kent State with respect to making that, where this happen a historic spot, not only to have the Kent State Senator, which is unbelievable. But, markers being placed making sure it is it is forever remembered in terms of remembrance. And it is historic, and just everything Kent State now in terms of the administration is unbelievable. And I-I know that they have had issues over the years, but there is no question when you hear Alan Canfora say positive things about an administration and then it has got to be good. [laughter] Because he went through many years, where there was not so good. But, just your thoughts on the site where this all happened and your thoughts as a graduate of Kent State, who went through this, that this spot where it happened is forever preserved for history? HF: 1:24:18 It has to be preserved for history because that is how we learn, and how we continue to grow. Cannot, it cannot be forgotten because we do not want to have a, it is like a T and square. It is something that should never happen again. And as long as we can remember what happened at Kent State, good chance that will not happen again. SM: 1:24:49 What is the number one lesson of Kent State and Jackson State, the two together for future generations? HF: 1:25:02 Communication, and communication with the right people making the right decisions. It is all about communication and getting rid of politics and getting rid of egos. It is all about solid communication between individuals and people, especially about things that matter most, like people's lives. SM: 1:25:30 Right. And my last question is a question I have been asking now for the last 15 interviewees. Your tape will be listened to 50 years from now, long after you are gone, I am gone. And most of the boomer generation will be around either, so no one will be alive when Kent State happened. And that is the purpose of our centers to make sure that there is research and scholarship on these events. So, they are never forgotten. So what words of advice would you give to young students, faculty, national scholars who are studying this story, 50 years from now, words of advice? HF: 1:26:24 Words of advice to those of you who are listening to this tape, years from now, is really listen, and listen to the other tapes as well. And try to understand what mistakes were made, and how important it is to be able to communicate and be a part of the process and not hide from it. And Kent State should not have happened. But, protest in this country should be allowed, not violent protest, but protest, like they were at Ken State, it was just a protest. It is part of our culture, it is part of who we are. And it will never stop. But, respect communication of what is going on and respect people's lives. SM: 1:27:35 Very well said and I just want to say that I always ask a question, usually when I say what are the lessons learned and the lessons that cannot be lost from the (19)60s or from any of the Vietnam War, or even Kent State? You already answered that question. With one word, communication. HF: 1:27:57 Yep. SM: 1:27:58 You hit it right on the button. Howard, I want to thank you for this interview. HF: 1:28:05 You might, you might consider putting a link to the oral history I gave to Kent State too. SM: 1:28:10 I will do that. I got to deal with Binghamton University, but I will deal with that and I am going to pause the tape now. Thank you very much for the interview. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Howard Ruffner https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/51bd747121c54af5d94405738f3f9e98.jpeg a9a6adaa484fdc34f5cfdba7c85f433b https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/56b971be93b7aeb0b94a44b539d6d866.mp3 d662a106a623ea36fcfdf901c66477ab Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 23 June 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Elizabeth Jane McCarthy Biographical Text Dr. Elizabeth Jane McCarthy grew up in Cohasset, Massachusetts.&nbsp;&nbsp;She is a nurse, educator, and activist. Dr. McCarthy served in Vietnam as a nurse in the 95th Evacuation Hospital in Da Nang. Upon returning from Vietnam, she went to nurse anesthesia school. She worked as a nurse anesthetist for several years and returned to school for her Ph.D. in Physiology from the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Bethesda. Since her retirement from the US Public Health Service Commissioned Corps, Dr. McCarthy is teaching graduate nursing students at the University of North Florida, Drexel University, and the University of Maryland. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:35:39 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Date of Digitization 23 June 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Vietnam war; Nurse; People, Wounded; Home; Memorial Wall; Veterans; Remember; Uniform; Hospital; Dead; Lives; 1960s. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Jane McCarthy Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 23 June 2022 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Start of Interview) SM: 00:10 Thank you, Dr. McCarthy, for agreeing to do this interview. And I would like to start the-the interview by having you, read the, read the speech that you gave at the Vietnam Memorial, the wall, on Memorial Day 2022. And we are going to start with this and then throughout the interview, I will ask questions and linkage to it as well. JM: 00:38 Okay. Okay, here goes. Peter Cogill, KIA, February 1967. Craig Simeone, KIA, May 1969. Eddie Murray, GIA, July 1969. Allen Keating, KIA], October 1969. Dennis Reardon, KIA, November 1969. Those are the names on this wall, from Cohasset. A small town in Massachusetts where I grew up, eight boys in all from Cohasset died in Vietnam. This is why we have Memorial Day. This is why I march each year in the Cohasset, Massachusetts Memorial Day Parade, to remember those friends, those young boys that we lost in Vietnam, to remember the high cost of war. We are here now on Memorial Day once again, here more than 50 years later to remember this loss, to remember the high cost of war. Many of you out there also served in Vietnam. Nurses like my friend from Boston, Kathy Pines, and corpsman and medics, physicians, helicopter pilots, helicopter pilots that I never knew because your job ended when my job began: bringing the wounded to us at the hospital, and radio guys at the hospitals and in the field, like my friend Dick Churchill, who called in the choppers for the wounded. All those who helped in the hospitals and in the field cared for those wounded, please stand. And let us just thank them. And gold star mothers like Joanne Churchill, your sons were not alone, as these veterans were the ones caring for the wounded from the field to the hospitals. Can you want it that is out there who made it back? These nurses, and docs, and corpsmen, and medics are the ones that were there to take care of you. I served as an Army nurse in Vietnam, in 1970 and 1971, just after my friends on this wall, had made their sacrifice. I was not in favor of the war, and did not understand what we were doing here. But I knew many of my friends were being drafted and killed. I decided what would be of more purpose, at that time in my life, a new 21-year-old nurse, then to care for those wounded but were being drafted and sent off to war. I joined the Army Nurse Corps after 10 months working here at the Walter Reed Army Hospital. I was ordered to the United States Evacuation Hospital in Da Nang, south Vietnam. I have worked in triage or what we call here, the emergency room. What was called there priyad and receiving, receiving the wounded. I took care of 18 and 19-year-old young men, boys. I really saw a 20-year-old, shot up, frightened, alone, and afraid to die in a war they did not understand. How does a 22-year-old girl from a small town in Massachusetts tell a 19-year-old soldier that he does not have a foot or leg anymore, and they have wounds. The patient is expected to die because they were not candidates for surgery. I just tell them, or I sat with them until they died? I wonder why we were fighting this war. I thought I would find answers in Vietnam. But I did not. I did learn that war causes deaths and mutilation. So, what was it like coming home? Looking back now, I had a classic case of post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD, I believe, I believe all of us that witnessed the atrocities of war, experience post-traumatic stress to one degree or another. I had, nightly, trouble sleeping hypervigilance, depressed, I was not eating. In those days, there was no such thing as PTSD. You were told to just put one foot in front of the other and go on with your life. For me, that meant school, work, more school, work, and having my own family. I did get some help along the way. In 1993, we had the dedication of the memorial for the nurses over there. I remember being here. We had a parade of nurses down Constitution Avenue, and each of us had our banner of our work behind, standing behind the banner for our hospital in Vietnam, and we stood behind this banner, and the veterans were on the side of the road. It was very quiet. And you would hear every once in a while, when the veteran guys in their wheelchairs, they would see the sign of their hospitals and you wish you would hear them yell out, "You took care of me, you took care of me. I remember you. You took care of me." This was so healing for all of us, for the vets, and for us the nurses. And it was for us nurses to begin to realize that we needed to heal also. We saw those atrocities day in and day out. And we needed to be healed. And that is what both of these Vietnam memorials have given us over the year. And I am glad that we do what we do every Memorial Day here. At our nurse’s memorial, we have our candlelight service in the evening, AND the storytelling in the morning, And then this Vietnam program here at the wall in the afternoon, all remembering the high cost of war. I would like to end today by sharing a poem written anonymously, by a soldier who must have been wounded in Vietnam and cared for by nurses. It is called, "Angels in War." "Listen, now I have a story to tell about some women who lived through hell. They saw it in the war in a special way, sometimes 16 hours a day. There is a story of pain and strife and agony and fight for life. Listen now to this story I tell about these women who worked through hell. But they were young, like you and me. How much more special can they be? How many hands in the night did she hold while a young boy cried out, "I am so cold." Listen now to the stories they tell. These are the women who lived through hell. Let us not forget these stories they tell. For they are our sisters who lived through hell." SM: 09:14 That was, I was present at the speech this year. And it was a very powerful one. And you received a standing ovation from everyone who was there. And I knew when I, you accepted the, the honor to interview you. I wanted you to give that speech so that others can hear it not only today, but 50 years from now, to remember those brave young men and women who served in that war. And, and, and of course you state the eight who died from your hometown and you went to school with. And I just want to say those names are on the Vietnam Memorial. And I will be asking you some questions about that speech as we go on with this interview. But I do I want to start, start off by saying you mentioned five names. Is there anything a little bit you can say about those names like, Peter Cogill. Could you say something about Peter? JM: 10:13 Peter Cogill was, he was in my class, so I knew him growing up and [inaudible] Peter Cogill. I mean, you know, I knew him growing up, 1967. So, we graduated from high school in (19)66. So, he must have gone in right after high school, went into the army. And then, Craig Simeone he lived up the street from me by the football field, and he was in my class. And, you know, a good student, I am not sure, 1959, if he, you know, went off to college or something, I do not know. My best friend there is Allen Keating, and he was a neighbor of mine. And he was, I knew him, you know, from kindergarten on up, played in the neighborhood, you know, baseball, football. I, you know, I played all of that, did all that with the guys in the neighborhood, rode our bikes. And through high school, he was the captain of our football team. Just, you know, just so well liked by all of us. And, I think Alan especially was missed by so many. I have a friend, my friend that was Dick Churchill, he still wears his, Alan's, you know, on his wrist, like a bracelet, with Alan's name on it. So, those with a 1, 2, 3, Eddie Murray, Eddie Murray was in my class too, four, four of them that were in my class, Dennis Reardon was a year older, I believe, but I knew him. He was in my brother's class. SM: 12:07 When they came home from war, were they buried in the hometown cemetery, or were some of them- JM: 12:12 Yes. SM: 12:12 -buried in Arlington? JM: 12:14 No they-they-they were buried at home because those were the funerals. I was coming home to every six months. Yeah. Yeah, I do not. I do not, you know, back then. I do not remember anybody opting to be buried in Arlington. SM: 12:31 Right. JM: 12:32 My friend Chrissy, Chris was in Vietnam with me, a nurse, Chris McKinley, and she died about 15 years ago, we think from exposure to Agent Orange. And, anyway, and she had her, she was buried at Arlington. And, but I think back then I do not know if we just did not even know you could not be buried, but they probably did not want to be. No, they- SM: 13:10 Right. JM: 13:10 -did not want to be buried in Arlington. They wanted to come back home. SM: 13:14 Could you talk about, could talk about your hometown, your early years growing up? What it was like being in high school before you went off to college and went off to war? JM: 13:27 Yeah, Cohasset is a small town on the ocean halfway between Boston and the Cape [Cod]. So, it is a lovely little town. And I went to the schools there, through high school. And, and there were about 100 kids in my class starting out in kindergarten. [chuckles] And we were all together through high school. And it was a pretty well to do town. I do not know what it was, a lot of the, a lot went on to college. And, there is, you know, there is old money there, there is roots, I mean, my family went back. My mother's family went back several generations. You know, it is one of those towns where you came over on the boat and you did not leave [laughter] and go out but you just stayed. It was very New England. My grandparents had a New England farm and, meaning, you know, with vegetables, and chickens, and a cow, and all that. But, you know that they survived on themselves. And I had a horse growing up and kept it at my grandparents. But they kept, it was really there for us, and I would go up there to ride the horse, and I could run. And then, I had another race horse when I was about 15 that was close to my home, that people had and I rode the horse all through town, I would ride the horse down to the beach [chuckles]. I never run into the water, to heel his leg, and then run him back to town [chuckles]. It was that kind of a town. SM: 15:22 When you were in high school, were the, were the young people in the school pretty well informed about what was happening beyond their town? What was happening- JM: 15:33 Yeah. SM: 15:33 -in the (19)60s about the march on like, for example, civil rights, the march on Washington, the Vietnam War, all the things that were happening in America? JM: 15:41 Yeah-yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, we were, we were, we were torn like everybody else, as I was torn, you know. As a matter of fact, when I was in high school and nursing school making that decision, do I go out and protest? With the flower children, you know, go out and protest, or do I join the army? And it was, it was that, those were my decisions that I was going to do one or the other. And, you know, most, by (19)68-(19)69. Most people, families were trying to avoid the drought, that is for sure. My brothers, I had two older brothers, and my parents went to the town. I do not know, I forget, man, what we call Mrs. Bouncer, the draft commission of something. And got, got deferments, my brothers every six months, because they were in school, and to keep them out of the Army, you know, and then by the time all these guys died, they came up with a rule, but Cohasset just lost too many. And we were not going to send any more over to Vietnam from Cohasset. No we were, we were very aware, very aware. I mean, you know, I remember the day that Kennedy was shot and Martin Luther King, and very much part of the, very much part of the illusion and disillusionment of the times. They were some difficult times, were not they? SM: 17:28 Yeah, you bring up a question I was going to ask later, but I will ask it now, because, you know, I call, you are probably what they call the, the early boomer group, which is the front edge boomers, and they were born between (19)46 and about (19)57. And, the impact a lot of this had on that part of the boomer generation was very strong, obviously. And the death of John Kennedy in 1963, and then the deaths of Bobby Kennedy, and Martin Luther King in (19)68. It, people kind of remember, where were you when you heard that John Kennedy was killed? JM: 17:29 Yeah-yeah, exactly. Right. Right. We knew where we were right, what you are asking me. SM: 18:02 Yeah where were, how did you find out, and where were you? JM: 18:18 Well, I was, I was in high school, and November 22nd, and it was at one o'clock in the afternoon. And they made, and I had majorette practice, I was the captain of the majorette group, majorette. And, they made an announcement on the PA system that Kennedy had been shot. And I guess they have dismissed school or something, but I went down to the gym. And by the time I go to the gym, then they announced that he had been killed. And, of course, we did not have majorette practice. That was a first. And then I remember, we did not have school on Friday, and then the funeral was Monday. But the horse, you know, and I remember going over to my friend Linda's house with her dad, in their house, and sitting in their den watching the funeral. SM: 19:22 Yeah. The shock, you know, we were, I am about the same age. We were, you know, we were young and man, that was a shock to everyone. And, and then, of course, as the (19)60s moved on, then we had the, within three months, the killings of Dr. King and Bobby Kennedy, and they were equally shocking. JM: 19:48 Oh, right. But, it was worse. It was scary. It was, you know, and it was sad. It was, it was very painful, very painful. SM: 20:02 When you were, again, you were, you were young, this is before you become a nurse. But, did you start questioning about America? Where was America going? You know, we are having some of that right now in the world today. With everything going on in 2020 people are asking these questions. Is our nation going to survive these things in the long run? Did you think about that? Did you think about any of this when, you, these tragedies were happening? JM: 20:34 Well, I think even when I was in nursing school, I did not understand. Remember, like I said, in my-my speech there, I did not understand why we were in this war. But I had this idea in my head that the government knew why we were. And I thought, if I went over to war, I would find out why we were in this war. And, so I still have this idea that the government knew what they were doing. But boy, did I get disillusion about that? While I was in Vietnam, I think I kind of got awakened that, no, they do not know what they are doing. And I mean worse than that, it was, I mean, to be very honest with you, what I found out was that there was this thing called the military industrial complex. There were people making lots of money off of this war. And, and that seemed to be what was driving them. There was not, it was not the Vietnamese people wanting democracy, they just wanted to know where their next meal was going to be, and they wanted to visit their relatives unknowing. And, you know, who are we? And then this whole idea that they would draft 18-year old and 19-year-old, I think that was done on purpose. Because they figured 18-19-year old did not know any better. You know, they were very more, more pliable than the 25-year-old. And because when I was, l I mean, the only guys I saw wounded and blown up were 18-19-year old. So they must have just really, it seemed to be pretty purposeful. SM: 22:22 Were your parents for or against the war? And did you have any, what they call a generation gap in your family over that war? JM: 22:31 Oh, well, my father had served in World War II, and he was in the Navy. And I thought, when I came up with this idea of going into the army, I had hoped that I would, what do I say, leaned on his, his sense of patriotism or something because they had to sign papers for me because I was only, I was 19, I think when I went in, I went in as I was still a student in nursing school. So, I went into the Army student nurse program, and they take me my last year, and then I owed them too. And so yeah, my parents had to sign in. I remember that day, you know, putting the papers out there after dinner, at the dinner table, and wondering if they would be willing to do it. But they did, and I mean, I think it is kind of crazy doing it. They work so hard to keep my brothers out of war. And then they are wondering, "Oh, my daughter comes home, then wants to do this." I, you know, they just signed, I do not know, I do not know what they were thinking. But I know, I think my father was very proud because he was, in the Legion he would, and you know, Cohasset you heard my speech, we have this- SM: 24:07 Right. JM: 24:07 -Memorial Day parade. And, and he went out within Vietnam. I know they were very upset when I, I mean, I came to Walter Reed. And then I had to go home and tell them, "I got to go to Vietnam." They were very upset. They were, they were not happy about that. Like I could do something about it. You know, they accused me of volunteering. But you know, I had to go. So, off I went. And that Memorial Day that I was away my father at the parade, at the end of the parade at the podium, you know, announced that I was in Vietnam and that he had heard from me. I think that morning, I am not sure I was allowed to call home once a month and so the town, not only my parents, but the whole town knew I was over there. And what I was doing, and then, you know, to come home, and then my father when I came home from Vietnam, I think in (19)72, for Memorial Day, he asked me to march in the parade, and I said, "No, not going to march, not going to put on that uniform." And I remember my mother coming upstairs and saying, "Would you please? Would you do it for your father? You will not do it for anybody else, will you do for your father?" So I said, "Okay," so I pulled out my summary chords uniform. I went down there, and there was only two other guys and me, because most days, remember, you did not put on a uniform. SM: 24:07 Right. JM: 25:51 You would get stoned, or rotten tomatoes, or whatever. And the three of us stood proudly and walked down Main Street of Cohasset, wearing our uniform. And since then, I think there is I do not know how many, 50, I do not know a lot more have come out. You know, of course, that was a long time ago. But, so then my father asked me to give my speech a couple of years later, some time to give a talk at the end of the parade, as the guest speaker, and I remember saying to him, "Okay, I will give you my talk, but it is not going to be a talk. You are going to like." Obvious, I had a lot of anger in me, you know. SM: 26:33 Right. JM: 26:34 And I said, "Yeah, I am not going to talk about heroes. I am not going to do that. I am going to tell you the truth about what, what I observed about war." And so, that was my first anti, anti-war talk on Memorial Day. [chuckles] SM: 26:54 Wow, that is a lot of courage. That is a lot of courage. But yeah, you had a lot of courage and desire to serve by going to Vietnam so, that it kind of came out in your speech. You know, you talked about the military industrial complex. You know, Eisenhower warned us about that, when he was leaving office. Be wary of the military industrial complex. And he, I was telling him this stuff that Kennedy, before Kennedy became president. So it was kind of, his thoughts were right on. Some of the other events of the 1960s, just like you, if, when you first heard, he probably knew where you were, or how about the shootings at Kent State in 1970. That was a shocker too, that killed people. Yeah, you know, there has been a lot of protests, but nobody has been shot. JM: 27:47 Yeah. Well, 1970, so and see, I was probably in Vietnam when that went on. And so in (19)71, or (19)72, I was in Colorado, and I joined, I was going to Colorado University, and I joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War protest group. So, I was right here with them protesting, you know, doing anything to get us the hell out of war. You know, I was pretty committed to this war was wrong, and we needed to get out of that. SM: 28:43 The, you chose a career in nursing, a career that helps you decide what you could do to serve your nation, which is, which is certainly honorable. And you were against the war, but you still went because of the eight that you knew had died from your hometown. You brought this up at your presentation at the Vietnam Memorial. That must have really created mixed emotions with you even when you were over there serving. Can you talk at all about, first off that the trip over, the flight over, usually when people from, who are going to Vietnam that trip over, they had a lot of feelings and when they got off that plane and felt that heat, that was the second thing and then saw others that were coming home? Just you know, that whole, your feelings over there knowing that these things are going on back in the United States. The anti-war movement was so strong. And I think part of the anti-war movement was also over in Vietnam because the African American soldiers were dealing with a lot of the civil rights issues as well that were going on in America. [crosstalk] JM: 30:06 Yep. Those are two separate issues. Those are two, there was an anti-Vietnam war movement in Vietnam, and there was a civil rights movement of the black soldiers that were being mistreated, you know, send off to jail. And, and we and, and that was scary. Both of that was scary. Now, the anti-Vietnam movement, I will tell you a story is that we, the docs and the nurses, you know, put, you know, we had officers and enlisted in the officers and all of that, and we, but we had a place, Lance's Bar, that where we lived in the barracks, well it was not a barrack, we call them hooches. But anyway, there is, and we would go there to, you know, get together, to say goodbye, have a party, either somebody was leaving, or somebody just came and, and would sing and have drinks, I guess, I do not know, sit around in a circle. Maybe, I do not, maybe 15 of us, 20 of us, and the docs and the nurses, you can imagine, you have got very close to these people. And at the end would always, end by singing, "You have got a friend, you have got a friend," James Taylor. And then would stomp, stomp on the floor at the end, "Peace now, peace now." Well, one night, the group had this same demonstration out on top of the bunkers, and Harvey was there. He is our radiologist taking movies of this, and singing the song, I guess and everything. Well, this got reported to somebody, I guess, the echo, and he reported to Saigon. And then Saigon had an investigation of us, and they all came up in their helicopters, and interviewed everybody. I cannot remember if I get interviewed or not, because I said I was working that night. I am sorry. I missed it, you know. [chuckles] And so, that was a big deal. So with our punishment, I remember was, they were not going to give us any medals. Of course, we laugh about it, because in those days in the army, right, if you did something wrong, they threatened you with going to Vietnam. Okay. Then when you were in Vietnam, they threatened you with going further north, near the DMZ, but we were already about as far north as you could get. [laughter] So, they took away our metals. And I remember a couple of the guys say, "You know, I was not going to wear those damn metals ever again anyway." So yeah, we had our own anti-Vietnam war demonstrations. And I remember the black enlisted guys, scaring, you know, they had weapons in their barracks and they were going to have a revolt and we had a couple of black docs, physicians, thank God, that went over and they went over, and talked to them, and calmed them down. So, we were okay. So yeah, there was there was, there was a lot going on, you know, to the, yeah, there was a lot going on. SM: 33:29 What was that feeling when you got on that plane heading to Vietnam? What were your- what was going through your mind there? That is a long flight. JM: 33:38 It is, it is. And I left from Washington, my family, I had gone home. And I was, I had to be in this wedding for my brother and I was the maid, and I was a, you know, bridesmaid. And oh, my God, my cousin had been injured in Vietnam, and my aunt is asking me to take care of them. And I am like, I was, I am like, "Oh my god, I cannot do all this people." But, and then, I got on a plane, came back here to Washington, to my friends here. And then they had to put me on a plane at [inaudible] and with my duffel bag, and that was it too, being back home in Cohasset, I remember packing a duffel bag and thinking, you know, how do you pack for a year? As a woman knowing there are no shopping malls, people. [chuckles] You know and, and figuring that all out, and packing the duffel bag, and I think they allowed me to have another suitcase, I had a croc suitcase. And getting back here to Washington and then Beth and M drove me to the airport, and then I flew to Hawaii and I called them I remember and I just cried. So then from, then on, Hawaii to Cyprus. I think I landed in Guam. And then on to Saigon, it felt like I cried every 15 minutes, I just cried. I just cried, I was alone. And then I remember being on this plane with 250 GI's. And somebody is saying, "For any second lieutenants out there, your average life is 20 minutes," or something and then someone else saying, "Look to your left, look to your right. One of you is not going to make it back." So it is a very long time, as a woman, as a young woman, 22. And, and, and I do not remember the guys like being overly friendly at all, somehow, or I might, just so caught up in myself, you know, I am scared. And then we come landing into Saigon there, and there were these, what, there is flares going off. And I thought they were bombs. Because what do I know, I do not know what bombs, I do not know anything like that, oh, my God. And, and then I got out of the airplane, yet somehow. And they put me in a hut somewhere that had concertina wire around it, for three days. And there was a guard there, and I did not know if he was guarding me to keep the enemy out or to keep me in. [laughter] I did not know what the hell I was doing. I remember reading a book, and I waited. And then they finally maybe I have got my uniforms then. Somehow, they took me somewhere to get uniforms, and put my name on the uniform. And then I went down to Saigon too, and I met with the Chief Nurse. And I remember her saying, "What are you doing here? I did not know you was coming." And I am thinking, "Oh, my God. All this. And she does not want me." But anyway, and then she goes "What am I going to do with you?" "I do not know," I thought- SM: 34:37 [chuckles} [chuckles] JM: 34:55 -you know, so then she said, "Okay, I am going to put you up with the knives at the backup." And I am going to, so they put me in a C-140 with another 200 guys. And we landed every 20 minutes or something you had to unload and load. In fact, it was nighttime by the time I got up there, and they could not safely get me over to the hospital. So, I had to stay at the airport with the red, with the Donut Dollies place. So I am like, "What the hell are you people doing here? Why would you?" Oh, but then they have got me over the 95th, somehow, somebody got me over there. And so, the Chief nurse was there. And she said, "Here, here is your mooch, go to there. Come back and see me in three days." [chuckles] Because she is such a mess, I guess she figures. So anyway, it was, it was not easy, no. And then she assigned me to the ICU. And because I had come from Reed and I had worked recovering from ICU. And then that did not work out well. So then she moved me down to this, what they call a pre-op and receiving which was, as you heard me say, essentially the emergency room. And she said, I know you can take care of your own patients down there. And you can call the shots more or less. So, I went down there and that is where I met Christy and Annie, and we just became best friends, the three of us, and uncovering the docks, you know, and we had a great team. So things, but it was, it was either. I mean it was, ugh. SM: 38:55 Were you there, [crosstalk] were you at this location the whole time you were in Vietnam? JM: 39:02 Yes. Yeah. I never went anywhere. And you know, you could not go anywhere either. SM: 39:07 How long were you there? JM: 39:10 Ten months. And you could not as a woman, of course you could not drive, of course, you did not have a vehicle. And you could not leave the compound, unless you were in uniform, in a vehicle, where the driver had agreed to take you to another military place. And the only place I went was China Beach where they had an officer's club and, you know, a change area and you know, so and that was, that was I think it was Army, might have been Navy. I do not know. But that was the only place I went to, which is often by myself. SM: 39:52 Were you a seven day a week nurse, or would you, did you, were you five days a week and two days off? JM: 39:59 No, we worked, we worked six days, 12 hours a day. SM: 40:02 Wow. JM: 40:04 Seven to seven or seven to seven. SM: 40:07 Wow. And what were your duties there? JM: 40:12 Well, that is the outright. So, down there in pre-op and receiving, I mean, I had to learn. It was taking care of the wounded, that came in. Amputations, leg [inaudible], above the knee, below the knee, hip wounds, back wounds, chest wounds, and then they came in hypovolemic shock. And so, you were, I was, I learned how to resuscitate somebody in a hypovolemic shock. So, that meant starting IV's. And, you know, my orientation to going to war as a nurse was when Bob Watson in at Walter Reed, he had been to Vietnam, he was an anesthesiologist. And he heard I was, when I am on orders, to Vietnam. So, he took me to the back, to the operating room. And he taught me how to start an IV. Because he knew I needed to know how to do that. And so, by the time I got over there to pre-op and receiving down there, I knew how to start an IV and essentially, so you know, the wounded came in on the choppers on the chopper pad, the corpsman would grab a gurney, go out and get the wounded, bring them in, we put them on the sawhorses. And then I go to work, cut off your uniforms. And started, check, get their name, get a feel on a blood pressure count, start their IV, if you can get something going in the hand, or the arm, if not, I can stick them in the external jugular, I put them head down. If they were in so much shock, I could not get into a vein, I go into the external jugular and I have gotten really good at that, and start an IV and then I would also be doing what is called a femoral tic, stick a needle with the 10-cc syringe into their femoral artery, and ask for a 10-cc's of blood to hook it to two tubes of blood, and I would send it with a corpsman over to the blood bank right across the hall. And then, he would give it to the blood bank person in exchange for two units of-of, O neg, low titer blood, because that is a universal donor. And then in the meantime, the blood bank guy is typing and crossing. So, the next units would be type specific at least. And in the meantime, I am back here starting the IV's, setting up something for blood to get the blood going. And looking at the wounds, I mean, not looking at them, changing the bandages and then oh, and then writing up an X-ray. So because we would want to get them on to X-ray if there was any abdominal or even the legs to see if there were any cracks in the wound, you know. So, we try to stabilize them enough to get them to X-ray, if they were not stable I would have to go with them to X-ray, pumping the blood, pumping the IVs, get them out of X-ray. And hopefully you have got a stable blood pressure, 90 anyway. And then take them up the hall to the operating room. And then those that were not that critically injured went over to what we call pre-op and I would come back and look at them, and try to get them ready better. For the, you know, you had to be prioritizing all the time. You know, this one is going to go, and this one we can wait. So, that is what my day was like. SM: 43:54 When the really seriously wounded individuals, how long were they there? Did they take them, do they take them away to another hospital after a certain length of time? And for those who were not hurt as much, what was the longest number of days that they would stay in at your location? JM: 44:13 I would say for about two or three days. And we would stabilize them enough so that they can transport and so, two or three days and they either went back to their unit if they were really like, you know could, if they were okay, or two or three days and they were medivac to Camp Sama. So, usually we could load them onto a bus, you know on stretchers, and take them down, they would take them down to the airport, put them on a plane, and medivac them to Camp Sama in Japan. Yeah-yeah. SM: 44:47 In your speech you talked about, you know, holding the hand of someone who died. Could you describe a few experiences with wounded or dying vets? What did you do for them, no names? But, what were their wounds? And were you with them when they died? You know, there is different groups here, there is those that may have lost an arm or a leg. And so they found out that they, one of their limbs is gone, and how they reacted and so forth. And those that you could not do anything for, and we were going to die. And just a couple of the times, the experiences and I do not know if you ever mentioned this at the speech, but the thing is, did you ever go back to the wall on Washington, D.C. and tried to look up somebody on the wall that you would actually try to help save? JM: 45:42 No, I did not come home with any names. And I think I did that on purpose. I did not come home with any names. I remember, people, maybe a little bit from Walter Reed. But I do not, but not, no, no. And what was interesting in Vietnam, we never, I guess a nurse, you are used to like, you know, you have patient conferences. You talk about the patients, right? And when Chrissy, Annie and I would get together on the picnic bench with a bottle of bourbon. We would not talk about any patient. We just stuffed it. We just stuffed it. And I remember with Tony, he was a surgeon, and Sherry and, we did not, we just did not talk about it. We just did not talk about it. And then when we, when I came home and I ended up in Colorado, and Chrissy and Annie were out there and couple of other nurses, a couple of docs, about 10 of us, especially in Cafe McKenna. That is right, she was an OR nurse. And we then, we talked, and talked, and talked, and talked, and talked. But in Vietnam, we did not talk, and I did not come home with anything. Nope. SM: 47:16 Yeah, I know that. I have interviewed a lot of people and read a lot of books, and some of the stories about some of the people in Vietnam who are seriously wounded. Now, some of them survived. But, they would always be talking and asking for their mom, or their brother, or their sister, or their, someone in their family because not knowing if they will ever see them again. Did you have a lot of that, or? JM: 47:43 No-no. Well, you know, for the most part, and this is, I remember, if a guy came in alive, they survived. You know, because that is, that is, because we were treating hypovolemic shock, you know, and you pump them up some fluids and some fluids. They will pick up for you, they will survive. Now, the only ones that did not survive in my experience, anyway, were the head wounds, because the nurse, you know, I would call the neurosurgeon down, to come down and assess and say there is nothing I can do with this one. And so, so I would take that patient in the back. And, I would sit with him until he died. But he was not conscious, you know, but I would stay there, I would not leave him alone. But I remember thinking that consciously you know, that, I, that they came in alive. They would leave alive, for the most part, and cause most of our wounds again, were amputations, blank amps. SM: 47:44 Okay. Yep. JM: 48:55 As long as you could catch up. SM: 49:04 The, you had mentioned that R&R was very important. And you mentioned China Beach, I think there was a T.V. show about that. I think there is something there with China Beach. But- JM: 49:14 Yes-yes. Of course. SM: 49:16 You were up north, you were near the DMZ, were not you, you were, you were up north. So, how far away was China Beach, and describe what China Beach is all about for those who have never heard of it? JM: 49:21 Yeah. Well, right there was a show China Beach, and it was a real China Beach and it was not it. [laughs] And as I said it was, it, I guess it was considered it was, it was an in-country R&R. So I guess, you know, soldiers would come in from the field. I do not know if they had any space for them to stay. Maybe they did, but that does not concern me. They need a place to stay. But, they did have an old club that I think served food. And the beach was just absolutely gorgeous, just absolutely gorgeous. And we would go sometimes, like real professional surgeons and nurses, and put down on a Sunday, we would be quote "off," [chuckles] and sit on the beach, and swim. But I remember sitting there one Sunday with everybody, and we are looking over to Marble Mountain. And there were bombs being dropped and stuff. I mean, you could hear the war. And we all said, "Well, we better pack it up. We are going to have business soon. We better get back to work." And that was the craziness of it all. You know. [chuckles] We were enjoying a beautiful day at the beach, in our bathing suits. I remember, I did not bring a bathing suit with me. And I had to write my mother and ask her to send me a bathing suit. I said, "But make it be one for a nun or something." [laughter] So, she sent me a one-piece bathing suit with a skirt to it, you know. So, you know, I just wanted to be, you know, I did not want to be wearing any bikinis on China Beach [chuckles]. SM: 51:30 Now the, China Beach, it was totally 100 percent secure. Was it really? You know, Vietnam was not safe anywhere. But that was one area, you knew you were safe. JM: 51:46 Yeah-yeah. It I think it had a perimeter. And I mean, it was only a section of the beach and it had some kind of a fence up there. And whether, there were probably guards out there. I know we, we had, they had Air Force. There were lifeguards there that we were active duty Air Force. Because I remember talking to one and then he told me he was in the Air Force. I thought, well, that is a nice job [laughter]. SM: 52:22 Now, could you talk about how you left Vietnam, you were there for 10 months? And I remember reading something that a United States senator helped you get home. But could you talk about when that time came when you are leaving Vietnam? JM: 52:44 Right, well, like in February, March, I, I came up with my five-year plan. That is what I call it, my five-year plan, which meant I want to get back, go to college. Because part of my going into was I knew I had the G.I. bill because my parents would not let me go to college and I wanted to go to college. I really, really wanted to go to college. I had good grades. I loved school. I wanted to go to medical school. But my father. and I got into five universities, but my father said "No, you are going to go to Mass General Hospital School of Nursing." Okay. So, that is my part of this thing. I had had the G.I. Bill to go to college. And so, I applied to colleges again, while I was in Vietnam, I got into two universities. And then I put the paperwork in for school. I was supposed to go home in October, but I needed to go home in August, so I could start school, the fall semester. We put the paperwork in and nothing happened, and nothing happened. So, it had to be like July, and nothing was happening. And so, the IG was coming for the day, early in the morning. I remember there was a sign up that said that the IG will be here at 7:30 in the morning, in this little room. So I said, "Okay, I am going to go and talk to the IG." So, I did, and I told him my story. And I said, "I have not heard anything." He said, "Okay, let me look into it." Well, he got back to me and said, "Oh, your paperwork was lost." So I thought really, and I said, "Chief it must have fallen out of the airplane on the way back to Washington, D.C." I was quite cynical when I said it. [laughs] And so, you know, I came back and I realized this army was not going to do anything for me to get out of here. So, I was working nights one night, and I am sitting there and thinking, "Okay, what are you going to do?" I could write to Ted Kennedy. Okay, knowing that if you write to your Senator, your days are numbered in the military. That just is not something you do as an officer. As a first lieutenant in the army, but I decided, and writing a letter from Vietnam, you know, there was no postage, but it could be, somebody could be reading it on the way out of the country. But I did, I wrote an eight-page letter to Ted Kennedy and told him my whole story, I want to go back, I am here today, and they will not let me out of here, and I want to go to school. Well, six days later, on a Sunday morning, the Chief Nurse, Lieutenant Colonel comes running down, I am working. And she said, "McCarthy, go pack your bags, you are out of here." That is how I left Vietnam. SM: 54:31 [laughs] JM: 55:04 And I went back to my room, and I packed my stuff up in my duffel bag. And I found John Robuski, who had a Jeep, I knew he had a Jeep, and we got in our flak jacket and helmet. But that time, they wanted us to wear this blackjack and helmet all the time. And he took me to the airport. And that is how I left. I never said goodbye to anybody. SM: 56:07 But you were on your way home. [chuckles] JM: 56:09 Yeah-yeah. So I got on a plane to [inaudible]. They kept me there for a few days. And then they got me on a plane to Travis Air Force Base. And they processed me out in eight hours. And, you know, now I have been on a plane for 26 hours, and they made me dress up in my uniform, not [inaudible]. And they said I could not bring any [inaudible] home with me. But you saw me, I had my [inaudible], I stuff, I stuffed in my duffel bag to bring home with me. But, that was illegal. They did not want you to do it. But, I did it anyway. But, I had to put on my skirt, and jacket, and stockings, and high heels, black heels to ride on my plane home. By the time I got to Travis I could not even put the high heels on my feet. My ankles was, my feet was so swollen, they walked me around for eight hours, processed me out of the army, and then at the last stop the guy hands me a couple thousand dollars and said "Okay, see you." I definitely did not see other coworkers. I said, "Where am I supposed to go?" He said, "Well, where do you live?" And I said, "Well, I guess Massachusetts." "Then get on an airplane and go," "Well, where is the airport?" "25 miles down the road." I said, "How do I get there?" "I do not know, grab a cab." [chuckles] SM: 57:33 [chuckles] Jeez, very helpful. JM: 57:37 Yeah. Yeah, that is how I left the Army SM: 57:42 Now, you had, you had talked about you had a five-year plan and your goals were to continue our education. And you know you are, you are a doctor, you got a PhD. Could you talk a little bit about, you know, your plans and then on your rival home? I have a couple of questions about post-traumatic stress disorder and Agent Orange. But I want to, just your five-year plan because it was a good one. JM: 58:11 Yeah, it was three years. I knew I needed three more years to get my college degree, a Bachelor of Science degree in nursing. So I had applied to, say Indiana University's School of Nursing, and been accepted into Colorado University. And then my plan was after that was to go to anesthesia school to become a nurse anesthetist because I had found out about nurse anesthetist at Walter Reed and I thought, "Wow, this is something," but I did not think I would have the guts or the know how to do it. But in Vietnam, I said, "I can do this," and then went nurse anesthetists in Vietnam too. And, you know, I figured, yeah, I can do this. If I can do that, I can do this. So-so-so that was my plan, get my college degree, and then two more years in anesthesia school. So that is what I did, I came back. I went to IUP, Indiana University one semester, then I got in my car and drove out to Colorado, went to Colorado University, and went to Loretto Heights College, finished up the degree there. And then I had applied to Fairfax Hospital School, nurse anesthesia, got in there and moved back here to Virginia, went to that program, cut through, cut through there, and then I got a job at the Washington Hospital Center for a couple of years, and then I moved up to Walter Reed again. So now, I am back at Reed civilian nurse anesthetists in 1970, (19)78. And I was working, and Bob Watson was there, the same guy that said goodbye to me, you know, I mean, you know, they have taught me how to start an IV now, and so in the whole department and Bob was my chair, and well, it was connected to the Uniformed Services University. And somehow, I found out about that, and I went over, and I talked to Bob about it. And he said, "Well, you know, you got to go to medical school," but I do not want to go to medical school, I think I want to go on to my PhD in research, to do research. So he said, "Okay," so I went over for a couple of interviews there, and they accepted me. And so I, while I was back being a student and I loved it, I absolutely loved it. I mean, it was really hard. But, I had to give up my job at Reed. And I was essentially in medical school for two years. And then you go off, and do the research for three years, basic science research. And, you know, it was great. It was, it was hard. As I said, it was very hard. But, I learned how to do some really significant research. And from there, I did a postdoc at Mammary Naval Medical Research Institute. And then FDA found me and asked me to come over and work there as their basic scientist because of my pre-doctoral work, which was in high frequency ventilation, and FDA was reviewing the first high frequency ventilators for infants, and my research was preclinical. But anyway, I was a [inaudible], I was living my hat at the time. And so that is how I got into my work at FDA. And I transferred from an Army Reserve. And I became an officer in the U.S. Public Health Service Commissioned Corps, working at FDA. And so I was able to, you know, being in that uniform, Public Health Service for 20 years. With my work at FDA. SM: 1:02:08 Wow. JM: 1:02:09 That is a quick long story, is not it? SM: 1:02:11 But that is a great, I mean, it is a kind of, having a goal and doing it, having a goal, and doing it. And that is, it says a lot about you. And what you have done your whole life. Did you ever experienced Agent Orange? Did you ever have any effects of that when you were there? JM: 1:02:28 Well, I do not. Well, I mean, I do not, do people have acute effects of Agent Orange? SM: 1:02:37 Some people that have had cancer, they figured they got it from Agent Orange. JM: 1:02:41 Well, right. Right, you see, you do not have acute but long years and years later. SM: 1:02:47 I know many Vietnam vets and what they had to go through to prove they were victims of Agent Orange was kind of a living hell and. Right JM: 1:02:47 And my friend Chrissy that I told you about, and Annie's husband that she met there, both have strange Leukemias and died come from them. And, and I often though, and Chrissy did too, but it was our exposure to Agent Orange because we were cutting off their uniforms, right, when they came in, the wounded. And we did not wear, we did not wear gloves, [chuckles] we were not wearing gloves. And we, so we definitely could have been exposed to it. I had breast cancer about 15 years ago. And I think I put a claim into VA for it, but I never really followed up on it. Thank goodness I, I had an early, very early stage. And so, my treatment was successful. Well, my end was going through, my was, of course I never got in the Agent Orange thing, but my thing was hard that was hard was PTSD. SM: 1:04:17 Yeah, could you explain how you knew you had it? JM: 1:04:23 Well, it is not like, okay, okay. Okay. Let us see. I think like, I think I said my job. Looking back, I had classic PTSD and also how I knew that was, okay, when I was getting out of the Public Health Service retiring about 15 years ago or so, or 20, I do not know, 15 years ago. They told me make sure you go to VA and get an exit physical. So this is 2006, right, 25 years or something, or 30, whatever, 40 years after Vietnam, but they said, get an exit physical. So I said, "Okay," so I went down to VA in D.C. And part of that was, I somehow, I met with a clinical psychologist and they took my history. And I told them my symptoms when I first came home from Vietnam, you know, I did not sleep for six months, I did not eat. I was depressed. I was numb. I, you know, the classic stuff. And so he said, anyway, I remember him saying to me, "You have classic symptoms of PTSD." Okay, so I guess he put paperwork in for me to get, to get process for disability for PTSD. And I remember having to do that, I had to come up with letters that I was within Vietnam, and letters of people that knew me and Vietnam, and letters from psychologists with relationship things. And, yeah, I had to do a lot of work to get that but it did finally come through. I think I got 60 percent disability. But then seven years later, they, they asked that I do a reevaluation. So, I went back down to VA again in D.C., and I was seen by this civilian old psychiatrist who said to me, "Well, you look pretty good to me right now," and that was the end of that. SM: 1:06:46 I read someplace, because I have looked up several articles on you, that you were working with a younger nurse and, a woman came in, and died in the office or something like that. And he said, you were not as emotional about that, as you know, because you have seen so much death in Vietnam. JM: 1:07:07 Yeah, yeah. So, when I came back, I was in Indiana, and I was working, I thought, okay, I guess I am an emergency room nurse now. And I got a job at the city hospital there in Indianapolis. And in the ER, and I am working evenings, and I am working with a student who was assigned to work with me, a student nurse, old lady came in with a fractured hip in her bed, and I said, "Why do not you go ahead over to X-ray with her." So the student comes back, and she is crying. And I said, "What are you crying about it," she said, "She died." And I hope I did not say this, I thought about it. I thought, you were crying over that? I was holding a 19-year-old in my arms who bled to death in my arm, two weeks ago. And that is when I knew I ought not to be here. This is not a good place for me to be. So I was so numb, I realized that, you know, so I never did, I do not think, I left that job. But shortly after that, I moved out to Colorado. And I do not think, I worked at the city hospital there. But maybe the Chief Nurse knew enough, that could see that, I was damaged goods or something and then an ER with, anyway, I remember working in a pediatric clinic, and then they put me on the jail ward. But at least, I do not know. Yeah. Anyway, that is- SM: 1:08:51 Great. JM: 1:08:51 -that is what happened. SM: 1:08:53 When you came home from the war, you said you remember a Vietnam Veterans Against, Viet Vets against the war. And you were involved in some of the protests that they did as well. Did you attend, any of the activity that took place on that one weekend where they were actually throwing their, their metals over a fence, and going up to a microphone and, and then that was the same weekend that John Kerry gave that famous speech? Before the Foreign Relations Committee with William Fulbright. You know, he said something about the fact that, you know, how can you say, how can I keep on serving in Vietnam and say, I would be the last man to die in a war that, that was so wrong or something like that. Were you there that weekend? Were you aware that was going on, as a member of Vietnam Vets of America against the war? JM: 1:09:48 No, I did not. I do not, where was it? SM: 1:09:52 It was in Washington, D.C. JM: 1:09:53 No-no-no. No, I, do not know, I did not get involved. And really, I did not come to D.C., I did not. I was barely keeping my own life together, I think [chuckles] you know what I mean? I was not, I was not seeing like John Kerry. I mean, I did, as I said, in Colorado, and I went to a couple of meetings, a couple of demonstrations there. But even when I got back here to go to anesthesia school, I do not remember being really involved. It was not until, but then we had that, I was involved, but in a positive way, rather than a negative way. If you know what I mean, like (19)80-(19)82, we had the dedication of the wall, I was there for that. And in (19)93, I was there and that even, I went to the Congress for the hearings. You know, I was involved, but I do not remember going to any demonstrations. SM: 1:11:10 Yeah, that was just, that is how John Kerry's career really started. He gave that speech and it was a heck of a great speech. And he had a senator and William Fulbright that, that wanted him to come speak. And obviously, William Fulbright was not liked at that time by L.B.J. And so it was, you know, it was his historic time. You know, I like your comments too. You are a Vietnam veteran and how the nation treated Vietnam veterans is disgraceful upon their return. I have a story here I want you to respond to and it is just a typical example of how the vets are treated upon the return. Bobby Mahler who founded Vietnam Veterans of America, told me in an interview, and I have seen him several other times, that the reason why he created this organization was because when he came home, severely wounded, paralyzed from the waist down. He was in the hospital. And they had absolutely no wheelchairs at his hospital, and he asked for a wheelchair and he said, "We do not have any." And he thought that was ridiculous. He, people were coming home from war, and could not walk. And so he put in his mind, personally as one person, that I am going to do something to make sure this never happens again to other vets. And that is how he kind of, the reason why he formed Vietnam Veterans of America. And of course, he was one of the cofounders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, too. But your overall comments about how Vietnam vets were treated upon their return, it is, it is upsetting. JM: 1:12:54 Well, I do not, well, I mean, which comments? SM: 1:13:02 No, just any thoughts on how America treated its vets who served in Vietnam? JM: 1:13:06 Oh you are asking me what, what- SM: 1:13:09 Yeah. JM: 1:13:10 -I do not, I think I do not, this is my opinion. But, I do not think a parade would have helped. And I do not think my feelings, there was PTSD, or that, you know, having experienced war, we need to heal, we need to heal. And then I guess what we did with the wall and the memorial was healing. That is healing. I mean, I do not think coming home to a parade. I mean, there was nothing to celebrate, what are you going to celebrate? You were just in a war that nobody knows why the hell we were in this damn thing. I think it is more about so, it was not I was not all about that I got spit on and that kind of stuff. It was not about me. I mean, what we needed and Chrissy and I worked on that for years. When we came home I remember you know she was out in California and had a lot to do with that show China Beach. The producers worked with her, and interviewed her. She, a lot of the shows were based on her stories. SM: 1:14:38 Who you are talking about, Chrissy? Whose Chrissy? JM: 1:14:43 Chrissy was with me and, was a nurse there in pre-op and receiving. SM: 1:14:48 Okay. JM: 1:14:48 It was, yeah, yeah, we were best friends. We got home. She was in Colorado. And you know, we stayed in touch. But she was out in California, working with the, working, and on the side, you know, we all did our Vietnam stuff on the side. Then we, what we worked on was like the Vet Centers, you know, Vet Centers, and getting veterans help that way. We, we felt very, that is what we needed, where we needed to be putting our energy away. Not so much a parade, to get them some help. And they started these Vet centers on the sidewalks, you know, that was supposed to be if you were a veteran come in, and we will help you. And we needed to get them more help that way. I do not know if that is making sense. SM: 1:15:48 Oh, yeah, it does. It is a different opinion. And that is, that is important. JM: 1:15:52 I do not think I do not think a parade would have helped. SM: 1:15:55 Right. JM: 1:15:55 You know, I think that the Vietnam vets they had trouble with, we had trouble because we have witnessed atrocities of war. And what are you going to do celebrate that they needed to? SM: 1:16:08 Right. JM: 1:16:09 You know, we needed to process that. We needed to process with other veterans, with other, because you could not talk to anybody that had not been there. They did not understand. And we needed to support the veterans that way to help them get on with their lives. But I mean, and to help heal, and what they went through. SM: 1:16:34 You attended both of the- these historic events, the opening of the wall in 1982, and the opening of the women's memorial in 1993. As a veteran I have seen, I live in California, I could not come to attend. But, that picture of the wall opening is, man, there was a lot of people there. Could you, what was the feelings that, that was there, in 1982? Just-just being there, what did it, how did you feel? JM: 1:17:04 So, it was, it was very exciting. There was a lot of hoopla, there was a lot of, there was a, you know, a lot of veterans here on motorcycles. And so, there was that kind of celebration. But I think afterwards, you know, when-when, like, the wall was a very somber place. It was almost sacred, you know, and it was very different from any other Memorial. And when people would come in, like, I remember when Chrissy came in to see the wall for the first time, and my friend, Mike Camp, who was a psychiatrist. I think he was still at Walter Reed them, and we were in Vietnam together. And, and we both thought, we cannot let Chrissy see that wall by herself, and we met her at the wall. And we walked her through the wall, with her. I mean, that is, that is, that is what kind of a sites it is, when you see it for the first time. And, and then seeing the soldiers, you know, looking at the wall. So, there was a difference between to me anyway, that day when we celebrated the dedication of the wall. And then afterwards, the impact it has on veterans since, even to this day, you know that- SM: 1:18:41 Yes. JM: 1:18:42 -you have airplanes full of veterans coming in to look at that wall. And but then, you look at 1993 right, by then I was at the Uniformed Services University as a professor. I was in uniform now. And several of us went down to the dedication. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness. You know, all kinds of nurses came in from all over the country. And I remember this friend of mine, another friend, Janet Smart, from Colorado. She and I were friends in Colorado. I mean, you know, when we ran the streets, and we skied, and partied, and she was a ski instructor, and she had been, she was a nurse in the reserve unit. But so I left Colorado, you know, and came back and now we were, what, 20 years later or so 15 years later, and we were at the Dedication of the Nurses Memorial. I am and I look up and she is tall like I am, and I looked over, and there was Janet. And we both said to each other, "What are you doing here?" [laughter] And she said, "I was in Vietnam," and I said "Well, so was I." We had been friends in Colorado for three years, never told each other that we had been in Vietnam. SM: 1:20:06 Oh my gosh. Yeah. JM: 1:20:08 Yeah. So, I mean, that just shows you how much you can stuff it. But that so anyway, that day I told her in my speech I talked about, the somberness. But the nurse’s memorial, I feel like it is still different. I can go and sit there, and I do not know, it feels more healing, and peaceful, or something underneath the trees. And whereas the wall, you know, if you really look at the wall, it has got all those names on it. SM: 1:20:48 You know, Jam Scruggs wrote, his first book was "To heal a Nation." And, and this is a question I have asked all the people I have interviewed. When Jan used to say a lot, "This is not a political entity. This is all about remembrance. This is about making sure that we never forget those who served in Vietnam and lost their lives. And those who did serve in Vietnam and came home, and for the families of those who are no longer with us," that, you know, it was all about that, it was about healing. He goes on and it is done a great job in terms of healing, the Vietnam vets, and their families. The question is whether what the job is done with healing the nation that was so divided in, in the (19)60s? And that everybody has their own opinions on this. Do you think that wall has helped us heal as a nation? JM: 1:21:49 Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I think it was a turning point in, in how we looked at war, I mean, every other Memorial, is memorializing the heroes coming home. And I think that this memorial, is memorializing the high cost of war, and the pain of war. And I mean, I differ from Shannon, a bit there that it is not about remembering, it is about, it is about remembering these people. But it is also, it is about remembering the high costs of war, and we ought to think twice about getting into another war. SM: 1:22:39 Right. JM: 1:22:41 But that is very opposite meaning of every other Memorial where you look at "Oh, the soldiers, the heroes." I do not get that from the wall. I do not get that from, from looking at the wall. I get that this, we lost 58,000 men for what? And that is what even the soldiers, the way those soldiers are looking at that wall, you know. SM: 1:23:17 In your view, what is the legacy of the Vietnam War? And what were the lessons learned or lost in that war? JM: 1:23:26 Oh, I was hoping that we had learned the lesson of not getting into war. Nothing good comes of it. That is all we have atrocities, and lives lost, and countries ruin. When you think, you know that poor Vietnam country, the bombing, and everything, ugh. You know, wars are not good, nothing good comes out of them. And in this whole thing, you got a question. Somebody say, well, it was the domino theory. Really? Really, that is what we were told we were there because of the domino theory. Yeah, we lost and I do not see any dominoes falling here. And Vietnam, even though it was under communist rule, it was probably, it was probably better off than-than it was when it was being at war for 15-20 years. SM: 1:24:33 Who do you blame for the war, if you know? JM: 1:24:40 I think, I think all of them you know, the military industrial complex, the people making money off to the war. They were pushing it. The lobbyists, the weapons people, the convinced, and I knew Johnson he knew it was wrong. And then Nixon, you know, he did. It was the one time voted for Nixon was because he said he would get us the hell out of there- SM: 1:25:15 Right. JM: 1:25:19 -but I thought, I thought once we got out of there that we had learned our lessons, and then you see in (19)91, 20 years later, Bush invaded Iran. And I fell apart, then I fell apart. I just did not think our country would ever do that. And that is when I really fell apart with PTSD. Because I just, I, we could not turn the T.V. on in my house. We, you know, I could not I got really depressed, I just could not believe that we were doing that again. SM: 1:25:57 And now we are talking about building another memorial for the Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, so. Because that is what I think Jan is, is somewhat linked to that effort, because he is always we are thinking about those who serve the nation, and so- JM: 1:26:16 I am not. Yeah, right, no. SM: 1:26:20 One of the questions I want to ask before I ask my final two questions is, do you consider the activists who tried to end the war as heroes like those who served in the war in Vietnam, both are not treated well, upon the returned? Nixon called the silent majority; his group was called the silent majority during the (19)60s and early (19)70s. And they are the ones that kind of were, after those who served the anti-war protesters and so forth. But they were trying to save lives. But, the ones that were not it for just fun. The true activist one to save lives in Vietnam, not only the people who served in Vietnam, Americans, but also the Vietnamese population as well. Would you consider them? You know, the divisions of the (19)60s are such that how could you dare call an anti-war protester a hero, but today, when you are talking about today's terms, looking at Vietnam vets who I consider heroes, and, and Viet, and then the anti-war protesters who are against this war for many, many years, all ages, not just young people, if they were sincere, and bringing people home to save lives, I consider them heroes. What are your thoughts? JM: 1:27:45 What that we care about the Vietnamese people too, is what you are asking? SM: 1:27:50 No, it was do you consider the anti-war, the people who were anti-war protesters? Do you consider them heroes too? JM: 1:27:58 Yes, absolutely. Thank God we had them, thank God. Because, you know, that helped get us the hell out of there. But if people just sat back and said, "Okay, let us keep going with this war." We were losing a 1000 men a month, were being killed. No, absolutely. Thank God for the protesters. I think maybe Nixon was who got us the hell out of there, do not you? SM: 1:28:24 Yeah. I agree. JM: 1:28:27 Right? SM: 1:28:28 Yes. JM: 1:28:29 Yeah, thank God to the protesters. We needed more of them. SM: 1:28:35 The, I have a question too as a general question, is several people have talked about the 1960s and early (29)70s as two different groups, two different eras. The one era was 1960-(19)63, and the second era was (19)64-1975, when the helicopters flew off the Embassy in Saigon, of course, they are referring to probably the era of Kennedy, and then his death. And then the second (19)60s started in (19)64. Or do you consider it all one? JM: 1:29:18 Well, yeah-yeah, I cannot say I could separate them. You know, that. What separates them into what? I do not know. Two different eras? Yeah. SM: 1:29:53 No. That is just something, one of the top military people at the World War II Memorial when I interviewed him-him, he broke it down in the 2 (19)60s. It is just a thought that some people have, said it was two different years in one year. JM: 1:30:08 No-no, they were not my life. They were the most influential years of my life. And they were all very much connected, that you know, then our president was killed. And that we were shooting people like Martin Luther King. I mean, then Kennedy was probably killed because of the civil rights that he was willing to, to work with. And so, it was that, and then we got this. I mean, I guess it was different than that. Then we have got another bunch of people that want to get into a war in Vietnam. [laughs]. Oh, God. SM: 1:30:56 Certainly, for the, your, your thoughts on the boomer generation as a whole? Do you have any opinions on them? JM: 1:31:05 Well, I am one, right? SM: 1:31:06 Yes, you are one. JM: 1:31:20 I think, I mean, I always thought that we were very illusioned. I mean, that Kennedy, remember, Kennedy, and he, he had the Peace Corps. And, you know, there were ideals we could strive for. We were very idealistic, that whatever we wanted to do, we could do, and what, and that is what I got out of the (19)60s, you know, whatever I wanted to do, I could do it, and I was going to go do it. And I think it was a woman, a young woman that my mother could not do, or chose or did not do, the things I did, that was another generation. But I decided I was going to, I could, I could see the possibility, the possibility. And I wrote that way, if you want to think about it that way, as a woman, that, you know, there was something saying to me, I could be whoever I wanted to be, and I was going to go be it. And I do not think I would have, I think we were the first generation to be able to do that. In other words, to-to be able to go and get myself educated, to have a successful career, to be a leader, and to have my own family. I mean, I was raised that as a woman, you could not do all those things. SM: 1:32:58 That is very well said, very well said. And I want to end the, this last question. What would you say to young people, or people who are listening to this interview, 50 years from now, long after both you and I are gone, and many of our generation is, the boomers will all be gone too? What words of advice would you like to give to those people? JM: 1:33:27 Well, you know, again, as a woman, that this was the beginning of those opportunities. And I do not know what is going to happen like with, with the, well with the Supreme Court, and remember as a woman in 1973, that those opportunities had just begun, for a woman's right to choose. And, we did not have those rights before. And I think that is what opened up a lot of doors, and I do not know what is going to happen, if those doors are going to close. And, but we had it in 1973. We had it as women, and then, and we believed in democracy, and we believed in equality of all, you know, all, at least I did, maybe I was naive, but I believed in a country where everyone could be equal. Black people, white people, we all had equal opportunity, or at least opportunity to do good things with our lives. And I think that is being challenged now with this autocracy with the Supreme Court, and this, these cowboys and whatever, you know, I hope we are going to be able to keep our democracy going, because that is what gives us the opportunity to do what we want to do from within, inside ourselves. And that could be taken away from us. I hope it is not. But I consider myself very, very lucky that I was right on the cusp of that. And I figured out a way to do what I wanted to do with my life and to not let things like the fact that I am a woman stop me. SM: 1:35:26 Well, this has been one heck of an interview and I want to thank you very much for-for agreeing to do this. I am going to turn the tape off now and say a few more comments afterwards. Thanks again. (End of Interview) Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Elizabeth Jane McCarthy https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/e30fd1fd6ea3e4c8d2cb1b49f2c45289.jpeg 5356fad19d153f75ed864f97deae0973 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/3141ee307dae58dd26fd6c7cb483f2df.MP3 93f507b97db9ab2eab5c7cf62b557e87 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 22 June 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Bruce Watson Biographical Text Bruce Watson is an educator and author who specializes in American culture and history. He has written several books and feature articles for Smithsonian, the Los Angeles Times, the Boston Globe, and American Heritage. Watson also publishes a blog called the Attic. He has taught at Deerfield Academy, the University of Massachusetts Amherst, Bard College, and Hampshire College. Watson received a Bachelor's degree in Journalism from the University of California, Berkeley, and a Master's degree in Elementary Education from the University of Massachusetts Amherst. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:39:28 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Date of Digitization 22 June 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Mississippi; Protests; Freedom; 1960s; Volunteers; South; Race; Black;&nbsp; Fannie Lou Hamer; Vote; London B. Johnson; Free speech movement. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Bruce Watson https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/603424bc48167a5be22a64408df683c8.jpg 09c4a0496654acb27ca52a20011d1394 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2d5ec16551d82678bddcb2274dfcda28.MP3 3dc3ee062adb6503d6b24b67395394be Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 24 June 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Julian E. Zelizer Biographical Text Dr. Julian E. Zelizer is a Professor of History and Public Affairs at Princeton University and a CNN Political Analyst and a regular guest on NPR’s "Here and Now." He authored and edited 22 books including, The Fierce Urgency of Now: Lyndon Johnson, Congress, and the Battle for the Great Society (2015), the winner of the D.B. Hardeman Prize for the Best Book on Congress. Dr. Zelizer focuses on the area of the second half of the 20th century and the 21st century of American history. Dr. Zelizer has a Bachelor's degree from Brandeis University and he obtained a Ph.D. in History from Johns Hopkins University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:05:29 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Date of Digitization 24 June 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Books; Rabbi; Religious leaders; People; World, Religion, Martin Luther King; Anti-war movement, Protest; Activism; Jewish life; Judaism; Cincinnati; War; Jews; Writing. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Julian Zelizer Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 24 June 2022 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Start of Interview) SM: 00:04 Can you hear me? JZ: 00:05 I can hear you just fine. SM: 00:06 Okay, great. Well, Dr. Julian Zelizer. Thank you very much for agreeing to do the interview on your book, "Abraham Joshua Heschel: A Life of Radical Amazement," and that was an amazing book. Could you describe your, your early years, where you grew up, your early influences in your family and peers? Where you went to high school, and college, and-and how did you become interested in history? JZ: 00:31 Sure. Well, thanks for having me. And I grew up in a place called [inaudible] New Jersey, which is a suburb in northern New Jersey. My mother was, still is a professor of sociology. While I was growing up, she taught at Barnard College. And after I went to college, she moved to Princeton. My father, Jerry Zelizer is a conservative rabbi, in [inaudible], that is where his synagogue was at a place called the Bay Shalom, and I was an only child. So, I grew up there. And I would add, since it is relevant, my father's father was also a rabbi in Columbus, Ohio. And his father, my great grandfather was a rabbi in, in eastern Europe. So, I grew up in [inaudible] and I went to, until eighth grade, a place called Solomon Schechter Day School, which was a Jewish Day School in Cranford, New Jersey, which was half Jewish Studies and half secular studies. And then I moved to [inaudible] Public High School, where I graduated in 1987. And in high school, I started to gain an interest in history. But, it was not anything I was planning to do. To be honest, I, it was just classes I enjoyed. But I was not someone who knew exactly where everything was going. And when I grew up, I did grow up going to synagogue, every week, our house was kosher, I was the rabbi son. It was very important to shaping my identity, in retrospect. Then I went to Brandeis University, between 1987 and 1991, where I started to really gain a focus of what interested me. In my junior year, I won a fellowship at Brandeis, through the Ford Foundation, they were providing fellowships to students who might be interested in academia. And they paid you a stipend, which I am sure was not that much, but at the time seemed like more money than I ever made. And over the course of the year, you have engaged in an in-depth research project and whatever your discipline was, and worked closely with a mentor. So, I started working on the history of liberalism in Massachusetts, during the 20th century with a historian named Jim Kloppenburg, an intellectual historian. And it was coming right after Michael Dukakis had locked to George H.W. Bush in 1988, which was the real first election I focused on in-depth. And I was just curious why the label of a Massachusetts liberal had been so damaging to Dukakis and, and I spent a year working on this project using original resources. And I just really started to enjoy that kind of work. And I continued with this my senior year as a senior thesis project that ended up being like 300 pages. SM: 03:43 Wow. JZ: 03:45 And by the end, I knew I was either going to do history as an academic or journalism, one of the two, as a way to study politics. And I decided in my senior year that academia was the way to go for me, and I applied and I got into Johns Hopkins University. And I went straight from college to graduate school where I was there from 1991 to 1996, when I received my PhD in history working with someone named Luca Lamba. SM: 04:19 Wow. What, your history of, of the rabbi background is, I was reading in your book that your grandfather received an award the same day Dr. King received an award at a function. Could you talk about that just briefly before we get into the main part of your book? JZ: 04:36 Yeah, I mean, the fascinating part of working on this biography of Pashto was obviously there was an element of exploring my father and grandfather's world. Both of them went to the Jewish Theological Seminary, where Abraham Joshua Heschel was a professor for most of his career, and to look back at the world of American Judaism in the 1950s and (19)60s, when my grandfather was a working rabbi, my father was studying and then become a rabbi. And I found these points of connection, which were really amazing. I was just looking by chance, at the program, I found all this old material. I think my father, I am not sure, but I think my father had found all these boxes of material when my grandfather passed away. And he asked me if I wanted them, I took them. And in it was the program for when my father graduated and was ordained as a rabbi. And I was just kind of thumbing through it. And it turned out that Heschel, a king was there to receive an honorary degree, and Heschel was obviously there as well. And my grandfather received an honorary degree as well, at that same moment- SM: 04:58 Wow. JZ: 05:00 -in the program. So, there, everyone was in the room. And it is kind of just symbolic of this project and, and kind of how it was different from some of my other work. SM: 06:07 Your father and grandfather so linked to history, and now you are linked to it. And now you are teaching it, and writing about it, which is exciting. When you look at the period, 1960 to 1975, what comes to mind as a historian, and as a scholar, who is written about this era in different ways? JZ: 06:28 A lot of things I mean, certainly political turbulence, and social turbulence is what I instantly think of with a question like that. It was a very contentious 15 years, or however you want to demarcate the period, where some of the most fundamental elements of what America is about were being questioned. And they were being challenged from left and right. And that ranged from the way race relations were part of the history of this nation and racial inequality was so ingrained in the institutions and culture of the country, to what did the US do overseas? And what were these principles that politicians talked about when they deployed military force? And how did they compare with the reality on the ground? And those are just two of the questions. There were many others. How do we handle poverty in this country? What does the government, what is the role of the government in education? And it is just incredibly broad, and it culminates in (19)74, really, with a big question about political power and presidential power with the Watergate scandal and the resignation of Richard Nixon. So, it is just an incredibly tumultuous period, but not all in a bad way. And that is part of what I have learned, while studying, including writing this book, a lot of the questions were important ones that were being asked, and they really press the nation to think about its values, its aspects, its basic moral core, and what it was going to stand for, for the next few decades. SM: 08:13 You know, the life of Abraham Joshua Heschel was, I mean his whole life, you can study a certain section, and just study that for the rest of your life. Because how did this person become who he became? And this is a kind of a general question, there will be other ones later in the interview, but the life of Abraham Joshua Heschel, I think, fits into the decade known as the (19)60s and early (19)70s, as a religious leader, an intellect, an author, a thinker, and one heck of an activist, extraordinaire. Your thoughts on his role as an icon of the (19)60s and his role in Judaism in general? And I will be asking more questions too. JZ: 08:54 Sure, I mean, that is how the book starts, it actually starts with that framework. And I have, early in the book, one of the most iconic pictures of him, but also an iconic picture of the 1960s. It is a picture of March 21, 1965. It is one of the many marches that took place in Selma for voting rights. And this was a march where King called on religious leaders to come and, and march as a show of support from the religious community for the need for legislation to protect black American voting rights. And in that photo, which most American Jews, and many American Jews have seen at some point. King is marching alongside Heschel, Fred Shuttlesworth, John Lewis, some of the iconic civil rights leaders of the period, in both a moment of civic euphoria in some ways, and also, a scary moment. Because a few weeks earlier, the state authorities had beaten protesters simply for the act of protesting. And that picture is so important because it reflected not only activism in the 1960s, in this moment when so many Americans decided to take to the streets to demand social justice, but the role religion plays in that mobilization, something that is often forgotten. Religious leaders were integral to many of the progressive political movements of the period, and Heschel has come to embody that interconnection. So Heschel, as a civil rights activist, as an anti-Vietnam activist, as an activist who fought for the rights of Jews who are living in the Soviet Union, and much more, really does reflect some of the spirit of the 1960s. And, and a forgotten place of religion in that particular world. And simultaneously, and we will talk about it more. He was also a very important figure, which brought him to this place, in kind of being a public, religious intellectual, something we do not necessarily have any more, writing books that received widespread attention about theological questions. How do we think in the post-war period after the Holocaust, after the nuclear bomb about God, and a relationship of individuals to the divine? SM: 11:32 Yeah, you did a great job in every aspect of his life, very beginning when he was young. Wherever you live, there was anti-Semitism, and he had to, he experienced that, he lived in poverty. The economics conditions are not good within his family. Could you talk a little bit about how this great rabbi who became an icon of the (19)60s were how he evolved from those very beginnings when he was in Warsaw, throughout through Europe before he came to the United States in Cincinnati. JZ: 12:09 Yeah, I mean, he has an immigrant story, which is part of what fascinated me also about him to understand that trajectory. He grows up in Warsaw. He was born in 1907. And January 11, 1907, and, and he grows up in a family of very, that comes from very distinguished Hasidic rabbis. Hasidism is a sect of what today we would call Orthodox Judaism. But very traditional, but also very spirited. It was a kind of Jewish community that prayed with exuberance that devoted much of their life to studying the Torah, the Hebrew Bible, and more. And he grows up in Warsaw being trained to be a rabbi, he is a prodigy, his family assumes he will continue with the tradition. And his father died when he is very young, and in 1916, as part of the influenza outbreak of the time and Heschel's just nine years old. But he continues with his training, his uncle trains him as a rabbi. But during these years in Warsaw, where he lives in, in the Jewish community, and is surrounded by Judaism, in terms of synagogues, and publications, he was always interested in the secular world, even as a young boy. He becomes fascinated with a group of kind of radical Yiddish, secular poet who works nearby. And I described a scene where he goes into their offices and asked if he could publish poetry with them. But ultimately, he leaves Warsaw, which is a big move for someone of his background, and he decides he wants to study at a university. So, he goes to Vilna, first, where he goes to, a high school, essentially, that trains him in secular education. And then he moves to Berlin, where he goes to the University of Berlin, and will work on ultimately a PhD in, in Philosophy. And he continues with his Jewish studies but by the 1930s, he is a guy who is still very religious, and religion is integral to how he thinks of the world. But he is also become deeply enmeshed in the highest intellectual circles of the world at that time, in Berlin at this university of philosophers, of other kinds of social scientists. And he writes his dissertation on the Hebrew prophets, and is fascinated with these figures who told the world that they could essentially hear God, and raged about everything that was bad in the country. He teaches at an adult education school in Frankfort, a very distinguished institution. But in 1938, he was kicked out of the country. He has been watching the Nazis rise to power and in 1938 the [inaudible] rounds up Jews who were not from Germany and expelled them, including him from the country. He goes back to Warsaw, he is able to escape. But ultimately in 1940, he receives a fellowship from the Hebrew Union College, which is a seminary in Cincinnati, Ohio training reformed Jews. And the head of it a guy named Julian Morgenstern, has a fellowship program where he is trying to rescue Jewish, Eastern European intellectuals. And he hears about Heschel, and he is one of the people who receives a fellowship, and comes to Cincinnati in 1940. So, his trajectory is one that always from a young age, mixed very intense Judaic study in the Hasidic tradition, combined with a fascination with the world of the secular, intellectual university. SM: 16:11 Yeah, the thing is though, right away, you notice the connection between Dr. King and Rabbi Heschel, in terms of they both had deep desire for interfaith relationship in terms of social activism and the issues of the day, whether it be racism, the war in Vietnam, even Russian Jewry, which he was involved in, as well as dealing with the Catholic Church, and their-their historic treatment of Jews by saying that Jesus was-was, was killed by the Jews, these kinds of things. He was dealing with a lot of particular issues. He has got a lot of supporters, but he has got a lot of people that are challenging him, too. So, he, he is, he is one heck of a person in terms of history books. You have a quote, in the very beginning of the book, which is, you have already made references to several things. But, I am all over here. Your book is so good with respect to quotes. Wherever he lived, you got some quotes about what he said about certain conditions. And, I am trying to memorize them. So, if I ever make a speech, I can always refer to them because they are, they are unbelievable. This is one you have at the very beginning of the book. I just want to read it. And have you comment on it, commenting on it. "There is an evil, which most of us condone, and are even guilty of, indifference to evil." Dr. King was talking all about this too, indifference with something he could not stand. "We remain neutral, impartial, and not easily moved to the wrongs done unto other people. Indifference, indifference to evil is more insidious than evil itself. It is more universal, more contagious, more dangerous, a silent justification it makes possible, and evil ripping us and expansion becoming the rule and being in turn accepted." Could you comment on that? JZ: 18:16 Yeah, that is really, it is a, it is a very important quote in my mind to understanding some of what was driving Heschel. And it is a quote, it also resonated with King who spoke about indifference all the time, in the letter from Birmingham jail, King, famously lashed out, not against the open racists of the south. But he said, the preachers who were because they said they were being pragmatic, were not doing anything. They were the real danger, was the moderate who was more dangerous than the extremists because they allowed the extremists to continue And Heschel agreed with that. I mean, part of where this came from, was Heschel watching the Nazis rise to power. And ultimately, while he was in Cincinnati from 1940 to (19)45, watching the American political community do very little to save Jewish refugees, and even watching mainstream Jewish organizations be very timid in his mind, about making this a central issue and putting enough pressure on politicians. And it was that indifference, which terrified him and he, during the 1940s saw the cost of that indifference. It allowed Nazi Germany to literally ravage the Jewish community. It allowed, you know, the Nazis to ultimately kill many of his own family members, including his mother and three sisters, and the way in which indifference was so important in the Christian community, the Jewish community, to the heart that unfolded during the war would remain with them. And he would spend a lot of the rest of his career, talking about that, really attacking people who were not doing anything, attacking people who were sitting on the sidelines, even when they knew things were wrong. And not understanding that to not act was in some ways, becoming part of the problem, which is what that quote is about. And he talks a lot about this in the book that he publishes based on his dissertation on the Hebrew prophets. And, the Hebrew prophets were not indifferent. They were the opposite. They were people who were often considered. Often, some said they were drunk, or they were not psychologically stable, because they were walking around, screaming and raging about what everyone was accepting as normal poverty, inequality, violence, injustice. And he admired the prophets because they did not do that. They spent their whole life saying this is not acceptable. And so, I think once he reaches the 1960s, and he sees the different movements taking forth, it is almost inevitable for him, to not be indifferent, and to actually devote the last decade of his life to these political struggles. SM: 21:15 You know, the prophets that you just mentioned, are throughout the book. I mean, in various issues in his life, what would the prophets do? And really, he was constantly thinking about them. And during the 1960s, in the part you talk about Selma and Washington and that era, and at the very end of the book, you know, the prophets are brought up in quotes over, and over, and over again, what would the prophets do? And, you know, I wanted to mention, too, that the books that he wrote, were amazing. I know that some of the people that were involved in the Civil Rights Movement and some of the people that were activists, like Father Barragan, Daniel Barragan, who I knew, looked up to Rabbi Heschel as a mentor. Because of the you know, this, making that religion was very important in dealing with the social issues, you know of our time, whether it be the nuclear bomb, the nuclear war in [inaudible], which is what the Berrigans were going after, and the Vietnam War. So, things like this, but it is the books, you know, these books, I have two of them. But the, the books were "The Sabbath Man is not Alone, God and Man is not Alone," "Man's Quest for God and God in Search of Man." Have you, did you have a chance to read all these books? JZ: 22:36 Oh, yes, I read them several times. Some of them are difficult to really absorb. But I read them carefully. Because what I really started to understand as I wrote the book, was there was a clear connection between what he was writing and thinking about in the 1950s. And he is really writing about, in the Sabbath, he is writing about why religion in the modern world, "God in Search of Man," or "Man is not Alone," two other books that were famous works of his where he is talking about the relationship of the individual to God, and how the individual could open themselves up to ultimately hearing God's path of. I started to see, these are not separate from the world of activism that he ends up in, they are often treated that way. You know, first he was a writer and theologian, then he became an activist. But, when you read the book, and you read these books several times you kind of see the path that would ultimately lead him to find the activism so compelling. So, the Sabbath is an example. It is not obvious. But it is basically a book of why does the Sabbath matter? Why in the modern world of finance and consumption, should people take one day a week, which is Saturday for the Jewish people, and not do any work, not use any electricity, devote themselves basically, to prayer and introspection. And he writes about it, in terms of Jewish tradition, but he also tries to make an argument that this is an antidote to the rampant consumption that Americans were engaged in, it was a way to take control of part of the time that an individual experienced and separate it from, from that modern from that modern world. So, he is thinking about how to make the secular world a better place, through religious commitment. And in these other books, he is writing about how if someone is truly pious, if they devote themselves, to prayer, to committing, to engage in what Jews called the Mitzvoth, the good deeds that are obligated of every Jew. They, they ultimately become more spiritual, they become more pious, and they can hear what God is thinking and trying to communicate to them about the world and what is wrong in the world. And he ultimately thinks about this through the Hebrew prophets. But he thinks of it also in terms of what he has seen, from the activists all around, and including many religious activists, non-Jewish, from seeing Barragan, who are also forging these connections between their own religious slash theological beliefs, and the great issues of the day. SM: 25:36 Throughout the book, when you are talking about those, not the books of Sabbath, but the Sabbath itself, that was a very important day for him. And what- -no matter where he was in his life, whether, whether he was in poverty, or whether he was, you know, in New York City, being a professor. I mean, it is a very important day, something, he would not want to do something on that day that had any effect on the Sabbath. And so that was very important. Could you talk about, you know, Cincinnati becomes an important part here. I was talking to somebody about this book, and they said, why did he come to Cincinnati? But could you talk about his time in Cincinnati, and then finally, his, his moving to New York City? JZ: 25:45 It was. Yeah, so the Cincinnati years are quite important, although they were often overlooked. And they are from 1940 to 1945, again, he has brought here by Julian Morgenstern, who was the head of the Hebrew Union College. And he has brought on as a fellow, although they ultimately make him a faculty member. And it is a very difficult five years for him. First, he is living in a reformed seminary and reformed Judaism, basically was the effect of a branch of Judaism in the United States, and in Europe as well, that did not actually require practicing many of the traditions that more observant Jews thought were essential. So, the Sabbath, for example, a traditional Jew will not use electricity on the Sabbath, Heschel would, they will not drive a car, they won't go to a supermarket or store. But reformed Judaism was not quite as strict and allowed for all that. So, here Heschel spent five years living with these individuals who were being trained to be rabbis. But he saw, they did not keep kosher. None of, many of them could not read Hebrew. They did not have the practices or the knowledge that he thought were essential to being a rabbi. It was also during these years, that the Holocaust unfolds, then as I said, his mother and three sisters would all be killed during these years. So, he is all alone. He is living in this seminary, where kind of an oddity, and he does not really mesh with most of the students and faculty around him. And, he is listening to the events in Europe, and he is mourning as different family members perish. And it is during these years, finally, in Cincinnati, that he starts, just starts to engage in a little activism. He goes, for example, to Washington in 1943. Together with an orthodox rabbi in Cincinnati, and he participates in something called the "Rabbis March," which is a group of 400, traditional and observant rabbis again, what we call orthodox today, who marched through the streets of Washington, meet with members of Congress, they try to meet with the president unsuccessfully, to demand that the American political community does something about eastern European Jews. So, these are important years, and he is also gaining a sense of some of the differences of American Judaism as it was taking form, and what was still strong in different parts of Europe like Warsaw. And, he leaves in 1945, the Jewish Theological Seminary, which is in New York, it is a seminary, and it is also where conservative rabbis were being trained. They, a guy named Louis Finkelstein, who is the chancellor offers Heschel a full-time faculty position, in part because he thinks Heschel will be inspirational to conservative rabbis who are being trained because he has that knowledge. He has that background in Eastern European Judaism that was becoming more distant for younger generation of rabbinical students like my father. SM: 26:40 It is really, I have a couple of quotes again from several parts of your book and I, it just reiterates what you have been saying about what he believed in, but the quotes are just wonderfully written, and wonderfully put together. "We affirm the principle of the separation of church and state, and we reject the separation of religion, and the human situation. And, and second one I want to quote here is "To be pious, to be a pious person meant creating a connection between spirituality and progressive politics, leading to battles against social injustice, and the militarism in the lived world." And the third one, final one, here, "He would, he wanted to repair the world by ending injustice, and injustice he saw in Europe, in his youth, and in his battles." This is, you are wording this basically, in America during the Civil Rights era, his desire to end the Vietnam War, that, this, his last years of his life when he, when he is in New York, it is amazing what he did. And, he is everywhere, he is going, he is giving a speech, or he is going to a protest, or he is, you know, going to try to get groups to interface together to work against an injustice someplace in the world. Can you talk about this, the importance at this particular time in the (19)60s of the interfaith connection that he was so involved in? And so Was Dr. King, and I, and I am a firm believer after reading this book, that if Dr. Heschel had not been here, in America, there would not have been a person like him to work with Dr. King. There were a lot of people that want to interfaith within his group, but to get your thoughts on this, on this real close connection between this interfaith effort? JZ: 31:44 Yeah, I mean, there is a lot, of a lot of points there. On the first one, there was an interesting part of the book, and, you know, he is trying to find this balance between what is the role of religion and say, in the political world. And yet, as the first quote you read, says, he is not someone who is saying, you know, religion should guide public life, he is a believer in the separation of church and state. And so, there is always this question of what are the lines, and some of his critics would argue that sometimes they were turned off, by the way, he invoked religion, because it could lead to a kind of fervor, and, and kind of a dogmatic view of issues that isn't always best in politics. It was interesting to think of some of these debates and read them both in real time and retrospectively, but ultimately, he believed that religion just had an important role. And it was not simply that if you are religious, you will see, that you have to join, cause a and cause b, the civil rights movement, the anti-war movement, he has this other argument which is interwoven through much of his writing after 1945, where, if you have a society where religious questions which are ultimately, questions about ethics and morality, are no longer part of the conversation, no longer part of the lived experience of, of people, then secular society can become extraordinarily dangerous. And, he saw that part of how we ended up in a world where a Holocaust against Jews could happen, or where we could use technology, like the nuclear atomic bomb to just raise two cities was because spirituality had lost its place in modern society, and that these questions that gradually faded from what many people thought about and it led them to be hardened, it led them to be indifferent. And so, he was trying to kind of craft an argument about why religion, as someone who appreciated science, he appreciated modernity, he appreciated the consumer world, but he was trying to argue that even in that if we do not have this religious core, we are in danger, we will end up doing terrible things to, to each other. And he found this interfaith community when he engaged in activism on different issues that was like minded, and the interfaith element was quite important and it was really interesting, he really rejected religious leaders, Jewish or otherwise, who, you know, believed that religions had to stay separate, believed that the basic ritualistic differences between religions rendered any effort to work together as, as impossible. One example, a concrete example was between 1962 and 1965, the Vatican in Vatican two is revisiting a lot of its most controversial doctrines in the wake of WWII and the anti-colonialism. The church is trying to look at parts of the doctrine that had been used by forces of hatred, and anti-Semitism is one of it and, doctrine related to the idea that Jews need to be converted, or that all Jews are responsible for the death of Christ become what the Vatican is discussing, and Heschel is recruited as a secret liaison to the Vatican, to talk with Vatican officials, including the Pope, about these questions, and to lobby the Vatican to change its ways. Well many Orthodox Jews when they learn that this happened, it is ultimately revealed by the press that he was part of these discussions. They are furious with Heschel, they say, this kind of interfaith dialogue is not right, that you should not be discussing with Catholics or vice versa doctrine. There are two different religions, but Heschel railed against that way of thinking. And when he has involved in the anti-Vietnam war movement, it is the interfaith connections, which really drives what he does. And then finally, yes, by the end of his career, and by the time of his death in 1972, he was everywhere, it is kind of like a [inaudible] of American history at that point. And given where he started, just as a, in the Jewish community of Warsaw that this is a guy by the end of his life, presidents are aware of, Popes are aware of, the media will cover all the time, is really a mark of the kind of impact he was able to have. SM: 36:55 Well, he had an influence on Dr. King, for sure. And, I learned something in your book about the fact that the group that Rabbi Heschel was involved with, the clergy concerned about the Vietnam War, or clergy and laity concerned about Vietnam were the ones that invited him to speak at Riverside Church in 1960. No, yeah, (19)67 against the Vietnam War. That is so historic, I never saw the connection. I thought Dr. King just came. JZ: 37:29 Right. And I did not either, actually, I mean, I knew about that speech, it is one of the most important pieces, if you study the history of the Vietnam War, and the politics. King had been very reluctant to speak out against the war, in part because many civil rights leaders did not want him too, many supported the war. In (19)67, the Vietnam War is still popular. Many were scared that if they angered Lyndon Johnson on the war, he would, you know, essentially get back at them by withdrawing his support for civil rights. And King himself was really conflicted over what to do, he famously makes a speech at the Riverside Church where finally decides to, he cannot stand it any longer. And he makes a blistering speech about the war, about the cost of the war, about what it is doing, both to the Vietnamese and here in American society. And it is a turning point, because after that King is forever part of the anti-war movement. It gives the antiwar movement broader support in many ways, because they get connected to the civil rights movement. But the way, [inaudible] was an event organized by this group, that Heschel was part of, it was- SM: 38:46 Yep. JZ: 38:46 -these religious leaders, who King was very comfortable with, he knew all of them, who invited him to speak at this event at the Riverside Church. And if you watch the old videos of it, I believe you can even see it online, Heschel is sitting there right next to him as King delivers this- SM: 39:03 Wow. JZ: 39:03 historic speech. And again, I have seen it, I have heard it, I never like focused in on who organized this thing. So, it is really I think it is an important moment. And you can see the kind of effect Heschel and his cohorts are having by (19)67. SM: 39:19 I wonder if even President Johnson saw that, or maybe he did, maybe he, because he was very upset with Dr. King. But, you did not hear him being upset with anybody else. But, he could have been upset with many of the others as well, who were there from different faiths. And I believe the minister there was Wyatt T. Walker, was not it? I believe that was, he was the minister at that church at that time. And I also want to bring up the fact that, the impact that Rabbi Heschel had on people from other faiths, his mentees, and they both said, they said this and I had all, they all came to my campus over the years. Daniel Barragan, Williamson Coffin, and Richard John Newhouse, and they were all they considered Rabbi Heschel, a mentor. And they were, my golly, they were powerful people themselves. JZ: 40:13 So yeah, they did. You are talking about some of the most important figures of that decade. And, they really admired him. And for Heschel this was important because within his own community, he was pretty controversial. And even at the Jewish Theological Seminary, some would say he had more enemies or opponents than supporters. Some of this was because he was critical of American Judaism, including the way rabbis are being trained. He did not think they were learning enough theology. They were focused more on, on textual analysis and understanding Jewish law. He was an outspoken critic of the modern suburban synagogue, he would make all these speeches, where he would say that the synagogues being built around the country were beautiful, and they offered all kinds of services, but they were devoid of prayer, they were devoid of spirit, there was no reason people would remain attached to it. And this was a direct attack on what his colleagues were trying to do, including the famous guy named Mordecai Kaplan, whose, all his writing was about the centrality of the synagogue. So, he was controversial because of his thinking, because of the way he approached the rabid and, and he was also controversial politically, again, most mainstream religion supported the war in Vietnam as late as (19)67, and (19)68, including the rabbinical assembly, and I have a statement they released in (19)67, where they condemn this group that Heschel is part of. And Heschel is really the focus because he is the Jewish leader in this group, and say they disagree with it. And they do not think what he is doing is right. So, Heschel found a lot of comfort and solace in these connections that he made outside of the Jewish world where you would have people like John Bennett, or Barragan revering him and really admiring what he was doing. And I think psychologically, at that moment in his career, this was extremely important. SM: 42:21 Well, the thing I noticed in the, in the book, you talk about the importance of memory; memory meant an awful lot to him. Here is this man who wrote all these great books, articles, you know, everything, taught students in the classroom. Yet he has this quote, Jewish said, or something that you put in the book, Jewish education to him, should foster Jewish memory. The vital sounds of Jewish education are not books, but the bearers of memories, those who engage with the spirit and bear witness, beware of that, which is, I cannot remember printing I am sorry about that. "Beware of that which has been passed down." Now obviously, throughout his life, he never could forget the Holocaust and every element of actions, even in the civil rights movement, when he saw the poverty and the terrible things happening to African Americans, they could not vote. They were being, they were being hanged. They were being denied their freedoms, treated as second class citizens. That memory of his he does not have to read a book for that, he witnessed it. And I think that is an important thing, too, that your memory is important. Any thoughts on that? JZ: 43:43 No, I think it is, it is true. Ironically, I mean he, he tried to do some of this in his book, I think he was, he was not simply concerned with people won't remember the Holocaust, because in his lifetime, that was almost inconceivable. But he did talk, he talked, for example, when he was trying to garner support for the issue of Soviet Jewry, in the early (19)60s, when it was not really an issue. There was not a movement yet. He, he reminded people to think back to the 1940s, when so much of the American Jewish community established we did not do enough to put pressure on politicians. And he worried that by the (19)60s, a lot of the Jewish community was forgetting that, and forgetting the costs that could be incurred from that kind of, you know, forgetting of the past. But, he was also really worried that American Jews were no longer able to remember that world of eastern Europe that he saw it was so glorious, even with the anti-Semitism and even with what ultimately happened yet, slightly nostalgic look, or memory of the early 20th century in that world in which he was born and raised, and he wrote a book called "The Earth is the Lord's." It is one of his, it is his first book after the war. It is published in English. And it is called "The Inner World of the Jew in Eastern Europe." And it is more, almost like a sermon or a eulogy than a book. It is a poem, all about the magic that he remembered in eastern Europe, where you had a world of Jews, who were focused on studying the Bible, studying the Torah, who devoted themselves to that over material concerns where he argued, every person regardless of wealth was equal, because knowledge was the commodity and everyone was allowed to devote themselves to that knowledge. And he talked about the enthusiasm and fervor of the Jewish community where he was raised. And of course, again, a lot of that was nostalgic, he did not talk about the immense poverty and suffering, he did not talk about some of the problems that led him to leave ultimately. But, the book is about memory. It is a plea that Americans- SM: 46:06 Yep. JZ: 46:06 -use after the war, do not forget that world, which because of the war, was now literally being lost, not just in terms of memory, but physically. SM: 46:15 Yeah, I, just about everything he touches is something you can learn from, you could get a young person, please read this book or please read about the life of Rabbi Heschel, and you will learn something about life. The rest of the interview, I want to concentrate on Rabbi Heschel and the (19)60s. Could you concentrate on, right now on Selma? In the book, you state that he, he was actually watching a program on the Holocaust on T.V. when they broke in and talked about what was going on in the south in Selma, and how they had beaten the protesters. And, John Lewis actually had his head cracked at that one. And, and he said, I got to go south. He could not, it was, just his reaction to what was happening in Selma. And of course, a couple days later, Dr. King organized another March, and he wanted to be part of it. Could you talk about that? JZ: 47:19 Yeah so, so he has, he had been following the civil rights story for, for many years already. He was an avid watcher of the evening news, he would watch it every night, he read the newspapers. And, he said that in the process of revising the Hebrew prophets, his dissertation to be a book, he, then was changing, and he was seeing the connections between what he was writing about, and the protests that he was reading about. He gets involved in civil rights, years before the Selma march. The most important I will highlight is, in 1963, Martin Luther King invites Heschel to speak at a meeting in Chicago, of interfaith leaders on religion and race. And, Heschel gives one of the keynote speeches and I quote a lot of the speech in the book because it is really, it is quite powerful. Cornell West would later say that the speech he delivered in (19)63, is "One of the most, it is one of the best speeches by a white person on race since abolition," and one of the topics. And, he basically said in that speech, which King is watching, that you cannot be a religious person, if you are a racist, that race and religion cannot coexist in the same heart. And, he attacks religious leaders who are being indifferent, who are not seeing that they have to take on this problem in American life, and the speech is covered in the press. And it really puts him on the map in the civil rights community. And before (19)65, he continues to speak in interfaith gatherings about race and religion. He does some protests and activism on the street, in New York City, on issues of education and religion. But ultimately, it is in March (19)65 that this all picks up, and it starts on March 7 1965, that is the first march, Heschel's not there. That is called and remembered as Bloody Sunday because protesters are marching and when they are on the Edmund Pettus Bridge, the authorities violently attack them, beat them, beat many of the protesters, including John Lewis, who is the head of a group called Snick, who has his head cracked open by a police baton. And, it is an important moment because the media covers it. And as you said, ABC News cuts away, they are showing the Sunday night movie, "Judgment at Nuremberg," a movie about the Holocaust, to show exactly what was taking place in the south. And, and Heschel is aware of this. He is watching this and he is following the news. And then, he gets this invitation to come to a subsequent march on March 21 where King's bringing religious leaders because the goal after Bloody Sunday, Lyndon Johnson, the president of the United States, has called on Congress, finally, he called on Congress to pass the Voting Rights bill. And so, the marches in Selma are an effort to build pressure on Congress on the administration to follow through with that promise. And then, Tim gets the invitation to go home on March 21. And he is very scared. He is truly frightened. Because going to Selma is not like a trip, I am got to get through part of a protest, Bloody Sunday shows the stakes were high that violence was a reality. And he and his family, he has a wife and daughter, are terrified. But, he decides that he has to go, he decides at this point, there is no turning back. And so, he ultimately goes, he travels there. He is picked up by Andrew Young, whose one of the important civil rights leaders who carries around a copy of the Prophet, and has read it religiously, and really admires Heschel. And then, Heschel participates in this march. And I recount kind of how the march unfolds, I found this amazing diary, where he jotted down notes about the experience that are in his archives. And it is an incredible experience for him. He feels the religious fervor from, from the event and he understands what activism can be in a new way. He famously said he felt like he "was praying with his leg," on-on that day. And he also meets, one last thing, a lot of younger Jews who were there who said they were not really religious ever, they had no connection to Judaism. But one young man who's a reformed Jew says to him, driving back to the airport, that because of that day, because of the march in Selma, and meeting and seeing Heschel who, at this point, he has changed physically, he literally looks like a prophet, he has a long white beard, his hair is overflowing, that because of that day, he understands the connection to the tradition in a very profound way. And I will add, Heschel's also horrified, he is, he is, he loves what he does, he loves the movement, but he also sees the ferocity of the, the racism as they march, they are surrounded by, you know, Alabamians, who, you know, holding up signs, with horrible racial epithets, and often anti-Semitic ones as well, they are often connected in the minds of the white racist, and he does not ever forget just how deeply rooted racism is in this country. SM: 53:13 Yeah, you state in there often that he said at this time, "That racism is our most serious domestic evil," and he said, "It was easier for the children of Israel to cross the red sea than for a negro to cross certain university campuses," which is amazing. It is true. It is, you know. JZ: 53:35 Something that King, I mean, King and him connect on, as other civil rights leaders do in seeing some of the commonalities behind the Jewish experience, and Jewish oppression and anti-Semitism with the Black American experience. And they did not see those two as separate causes, especially in the mid-1960s. And, you know, King would talk about Moses and Exodus and often use that story in his own, in his own speeches. SM: 54:07 Well, his stature was certainly growing at this time, because you also state in the book that he was invited by President Kennedy to come and speak with him about the issues that were being faced in the area of race in America. And, he sent a note to Kennedy could you say when he said to him? [laughs] JZ: 54:27 Yeah, I mean, this is about, about civil rights and I mean, I do not have the text in front of me. But he is really, if I remember correctly, really urging the president to implore religious leaders to make this an issue front and center. SM: 54:48 He said, please, I got it here, "Please demand religious leaders, personal involvement, not just sound declarations." JZ: 54:56 Yep. Yeah, he, he wants, again, it comes back to that theme of indifference even proposes, cannot remember the details of the proposal to, to Kennedy, you know, some kind of substantive action that leaders can take to commit themselves to these causes. He is frustrated with how many people are basically willing to do nothing, even religious leaders, he respects about questions like racism. SM: 55:25 To show how Dr. King and Rabbi Heschel are on the same wavelength, around this time, you know, he was arrested in Birmingham, and then he wrote the letter to the Birmingham Jail. And you talk about this in your book, where King condemns the pragmatism and, incrementalism of white moderates describing them as, "a greater threat than racists extremists." And basically, what he is saying, people always say, [crosstalk] Well, wait, just wait, just wait. And Dr. King had this all the time, when he first became the new minister, in his first church. He talked about this, and they had just fired the previous minister, and because he was kind of an activist and kind of a radical in their eyes. And they looked at him and said, "What another one?" [laughs] That was early on in his career, but he was always dealing with these things. Could you talk about the, the, his involvement against the Vietnam War? JZ: 56:29 Yes, so, this really becomes a central part of his activist career, even though we talk about civil rights. And it was quite important, it does not even come close to the amount of time and energy that he expended on the fight against Vietnam. And he starts in 1965, which I tried to convey, it is hard to convey to a moderate reader in the book, that the idea of really starting to organize against the war in 1965, was a pretty dramatic thing to do. I mean, there was not an anti-war movement to speak of. Those who were involved in anti-war activism were seen as really fringe and pretty radical. It did not have the kind of support civil rights was starting to garner by that time, but he gets involved with a small group that will ultimately be called clergy and laymen concerned about Vietnam. It starts as a group of religious leaders protesting government efforts to crack down on anti-war protests, but quickly it reforms and becomes a group of religious leaders who are critical of the war in, in Vietnam. And the group tries to position themselves as separate from the most radical parts of the anti-war movement. For example, they do not support avoiding the draft, they do not support burning draft cards. But they use religious language and rhetoric and also religious, organizational power, meaning all the membership lists of churches and synagogues to start to grow this organization and it grows. And one of the things they do, is every year, they go to Washington, they bring members to Washington as part of a mobilization that would take place in late January and early February in (19)67, (19)68, (19)69. They would have protests, they would have rallies, they would do kind of media events that reporters would focus on, they would meet with administration officials and legislators to keep putting pressure on Washington to bring the war to an end. And what they bring to the table, in these years when the anti-war movement still did not have mainstream support, was a kind of moral legitimacy that college students could not bring. They were not the hippies and the beatniks on the college campuses who could quickly be dismissed by some politicians as just radical students. These were respected religious leaders. And the group just keeps growing and, you know, by (19)69 and 1970, they were a very important, and known, and formidable part of the anti-war movement. And King increasingly becomes more radical as the years progressed, gradually more supportive of people who are refusing to be part of the draft and going to jail for doing so. He is very defensive of college students who are engaging in protests and says they have the right to do that. And some of his colleagues said that by the end of his life, he died in (19)72, the war was consuming him. He saw this as just an epic tragedy, that was emblem of what the United States was doing wrong, and its relations with the world, and also a tragedy for the American soldiers for the Vietnamese, who were dying, for something he did not think was necessary. He was not a pacifist. But this anti-war movement defined the last real seven years of his life. SM: 1:00:18 You quoted here that he said Vietnam "is an ecumenical nightmare, for Christians, Jews, Buddhists are killing each other." And this organization he was belong to, and he was involved in it, is, was very upset with president too, in Vietnam and what they were doing to the Buddhists, themselves- JZ: 1:00:37 Right. SM: 1:00:37 -and other religious groups. So, not only are we talking about it, he used to say this, another quote, you put in the book, [inaudible] which was a manifestation of a world without God, well, here we are in Vietnam, the United States is supporting this temporary government, hopefully it would survive. But in reality, they were, you know, killing Buddhists. They were discriminating against Buddhists. Buddhists hated that, too. I mean, the government, and we were supporting them. So, it was, it was everything, you look at Vietnam, there is something wrong here. And it took religious leaders like Rabbi Heschel, and Dr. King and many others from different faiths to really, you know, have an impact on the world against this war. I guess we are near the end of our time here. I want to add one final, there is a quote in the book here, and I want you to just respond to it, you wrote this quote, and it was on page 230. And, and this was your quote, "What was so important about Heschel was not that he heroically risked his life. But then he became an emblem for a kind of moral heroism that inspired, and continued to inspire others long after his moment had passed. He serves as a reminder of the often-forgotten role that deep religious conviction held within progressive movements that bent the arc of the universe toward justice." Now, that is brilliantly written. But, any other thoughts on that? JZ: 1:02:14 Look, it was my thoughts. I mean, the book is my thought, but it is a part of the history of religion in the United States that I think has gotten, it has been somewhat forgotten. I think, I say in the book that when people think of religion in politics, in 2022, or whenever they are reading the book, the major storyline, the major issue has been the religious right, and politics, the growth of- -your moral majority in the (19)70s, in the connection of religion, to the battle against reproductive rights and, and different kinds of schooling and more. But there was this whole world in the (19)60s, which I just found fascinating, where people like Heschel, were at the forefront, at the center of progressive political movements. And they did it not just as religious people who happen to agree with progressive causes, but as people whose religion in their minds, led them inevitably to partake in fight for social justice here in the United States, the connection was impossible to ignore. That is what Heschel reflected. And I think, whatever your politics kind of recovering that world today, is something that is extremely important. And thirdly, if you are someone involved in some of these causes, the way in which religion can be part of that conversation, part of that effort is an incredibly important lesson from his life, and one that we need to examine through him, and through other figures of the time. SM: 1:02:43 Yep. I end all my interviews with a question and it is just a very fast, what word of advice would you give to future generations who are listening to this tape, 50 years from now? What word of advice would you give to them? Because the purpose of The Center for the Study of the (19)60s is not only to, you know, do to create research and scholarship materials and for students, faculty and national scholars, but to reach people who are yet unborn too, so that they never lose their, their history. But they are always thinking about where they are, where they are at right now. What advice would you give them? JZ: 1:04:34 Well, if I am connecting my advice, to Heschel's story, it would be what we talked about earlier that it is important, whatever your religious perspective, to keep asking questions about our ethics, our morality, our basic values in society, and to never be indifferent to those kinds of questions, and to understand that we need to always ask those questions, if we are going to have a better country. We are going to have a better community. This was an insight that I derived from Heschel, which I think is incredibly powerful. And then if we do not ask those questions, we put ourselves down the path of a very bad road. And, and we cannot afford that. SM: 1:05:25 Dr. Zelizer, thank you for a great interview. I am going to turn off the tape. (End of Interview) Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Julian E. Zelizer https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/95a13fc705c68ad4a1494433ac34da39.png c4ed98e01e9d3d4d98aefeb461a5eb23 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/32dc6a5ce929e9d1dc6489a26b88e8f1.MP3 d4b646efdadc8404a6e5b9d76f44e1c4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 22 June 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Kevin Boyle Biographical Text Dr. Kevin Boyle, a native of Detroit, Michigan, is an author and the William Smith Mason Professor of American History at Northwestern University, with a particular interest in modern American social movements. Dr. Boyle is the author of The UAW and the Heyday of American Liberalism, 1945-1968, and Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age, as well as several books and articles. He is currently at work on The Splendid Dead, a micro-history of political extremism and repression in the early twentieth century. He received his Bachelor's degree from the University of Detroit, and his Ph.D. from the University of Michigan. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:35:34 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data DIgital file Date of Digitization 22 June 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Boomer generation; Movements; 1960s; Vietnam war; Anti-war movement; Activism; Americans; Civil Rights Movement, Radicalism, Martin Luther King. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Kevin Boyle Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 22 June 2022 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Start of Interview) KB: 00:00 My neighborhood, grade school and high school. And then for undergraduate, I went to the University of Detroit, where I graduated in 1982. So I was there in the late (19)70s and early (19)80s. And then went to graduate school in, at the University of Michigan, where I completed my PhD in 1990. And I would love to have a really exciting story about why I became a historian, but I do not. I really, always gravitated, even in high school to that. I enjoyed most history classes. And when I got to college, I thought that I was going to be, go to law school, I have an older brother, who was going to law school, so I thought that I should do that. And then, I had the wonderful experience of going to a place that was small, and where people, the faculty knew you. And I remember so distinctly a faculty member taking me aside at one point and said, "Have you ever thought about graduate school," and it was like light bulbs going off, you know that someone would think I could do something like that, and have that sort of life that I saw that these faculty members had that seemed wonderful to me, you got to read books, you got to write, you got to teach classes. And so by, say, my junior year of college, I thought, that is the path I would pursue. I had no idea what that meant. My parents were high school graduates, but they had not gone to college. And, I had no idea what that meant. But, it sounded like a very good life. And that is what I did. SM: 01:48 Now, where have you taught over the years? KB: 01:52 I, my first job out of graduate school was at the University of Toledo, which was part of the Ohio University System, the public at bio system. And I taught there for three years. But then I moved to UMass [University of Massachusetts] Amherst, which I loved. I taught there for eight years, then, I just sound like I cannot keep a job. Then, I moved to Ohio State where I taught for 11 years. And then in 2013, came to Northwestern. SM: 02:23 Those are some great schools that you taught at, of course. I went to one of myself, Ohio State. [crosstalk] I was, I went to higher education and student personnel work. So, it kind of set me on my way, for a career in higher education. The book itself, that you, why did you write, "The Shattering?" KB: 02:47 For a number of reasons, my first- my dissertation and my first book, a lot of it dealt with the 1960s. So, this was an era that I had been immersed in for a very long time. I was at Ohio State, I taught a course on the 1960s, which was one of my favorite things to teach. And I really felt as if, in teaching that course, I felt as if there were some wonderful overviews of the 1960s, books that tried to do, or kind of sweep up the 1960s. But none of them really worked for me. So when I taught that course, I would never had a textbook that I used, for a variety of reasons, there were wonderful books that just were not right for me. And I felt that, I would like to give a shot of writing the sort of book that I would have liked to have seen available, to kind of take that I wanted to take on it. And that is, was the origin of "The Shattering." SM: 03:46 When you look at that period, 1960s and 1970s, (19)75, what, not just of your book, but what is it about that period that fascinates you, [crosstalk] that, sparks your interest that your, your antenna goes up? KB: 04:03 I think there is a number of things. And this, actually will tie back one of the main things, will tie back to, growing up in Detroit in the 1960s and 1970s. I was first drawn to the (19)60s as, because of the, really profound moment of racial change. And I think that, that experience is so deeply ingrained in anyone who lived in Detroit, which was such a center of racial conflict and racial tension in that period. That was, so that was kind of the origin point, that here is a period where in all sorts of complicated ways the United States confronted its duty of division. Now it did not solve that division, [chuckles] but it did confront it in multiple ways. And that is, I think, one of the most important stories of the American experience, not just the 1960s, but the American experience. And then, it expanded out from there to the other complex of issues that I think are so decisively important in that period, really dramatic impact of Vietnam War in multiple ways, and the intimate experience of the Vietnam War. The, what I do in the book, that really dramatic expansion, that dramatic confrontation over the government's role in the public role in the regulation of sexuality. But other issues as well, that did not make it into the book, because I did not want to have the book sprawl out in so many directions that it kind of lost the sense of depth and focus. Here is a period for the United States, it embraces the challenge or is confronted with a challenge, I think, is a better way of putting it, of its fundamental promise, its fundamental promise of equality, its fundamental promise of opportunity. It is here that those issues come bursting to the forefront. And I really am, I have literally been drawn to the ways in which that confrontation plays out, and some mixed results of that constitution. I think that is what makes the (19)60s so fundamentally important, and the fact that we are living with those issues in a really direct way to this day. SM: 04:20 Yeah, I agree. What you do in your book in the area of civil rights and issues dealing with African Americans is, goes way back, and you do a great job of connecting the dots, I always call them, I was a history major too. And connecting the dots between this period, and this period, and this period. And, you know, talking about, you know, in the late 1800s and early 1900s, that there were people that were fighting for equality and justice, and, and there was white supremacy and that whole thing, but what is interesting when you talk about that era of the 1950s, that we always talk, as many people talk about is the age of innocence. It was not so innocent, because- KB: 06:40 Oh my god, no. [chuckles] SM: 06:47 -because African Americans were already activists and trying, and you know, and you talked about Little Rock, you know, you talk about what happened at Montgomery bus boycott? Could you talk a little bit about that, the perception that many Americans have, before he talked about the (19)60s, that (19)50s, which was so important for the (19)60s? KB: 07:50 Yeah, I think to me, there is kind of two really key points that you are really hitting on both of them. One is that, one of the challenges of writing a 1960s book now is that there is this very imposing body of literature that has extended the periodization of movements like the civil rights movement, that movement does not start in Montgomery in 1955. It does not start with Brown v Board of Education, in 1954. It has got this long history, that the Civil Rights Movement has of the (19)50s and (19)60s has to be embedded. That is one of the challenges of writing the book is you got to give people that backstory, because I think that is the story, that there is a continuity, not a break. But then to your more immediate point, 1950s has this kind of, it has, it has been wrapped in this kind of power of nostalgia, it is kind of like you said, Age of Innocence, and Age and, of Complacency. And that is nowhere near the complexity of that, of those years, there is a kind of political coalition that is formed, that takes form in the 1950s, that Dwight Eisenhower is really central inbuilt. It is a political coalition that plays to the benefit of a large swath of Americans, to middle class Americans, to the upper end of the working-class Americans, which is overwhelmingly white, to people in suburban America, but it is a political coalition, and its aim is to provide for those people. And it does that really effectively, and that is for millions and millions of people. It is really important. But there is also this huge number of people, and African Americans obviously are kind of the key group who are shut out of that system. But that system is set up in a way to exclude them, and they are demanding entry into that system. That happened throughout the 1950s, some of them, Little Rock is a perfect example of that. It is one of the most explosive moments of civil rights period, because it is a fundamental constitutional crisis. That is not simply the confrontation out on the street in front of Little Rock High School, though, of course centralized. So of course, that is one key part of it. But it is also a fundamental constitutional crisis. This is about the right of a governor to defy through the National Guard, through the force of the military, constitutional law. And that is 1950 suffrage. The culture front, there is fundamental issues going on, in generations in American culture in the 1950s. So, the idea that somehow America was an innocent place that suddenly lost its innocence in the 1960s, as the [inaudible] read it, of American history, Americans love the idea that we were innocent people. We do it all the time, something dramatic happens in the United States, the first thing people say is, "Ah, we were innocent before September 11. You know, we were innocent, before John Kennedy was assassinated. We were innocent before this, and that," it is a cliché, it is a trope. SM: 11:26 And what is interesting as a little boy, when I was very young, I was sitting in the T.V. room, and my mom was working in the kitchen, and McCarthy was on, it was the McCarthy hearings. And so I am, I am a little, I am a little boy in 1950. I did not quite understand it. But I did not like him. I did not like that voice. I did not like that man. And then, of course, as I start finding out, my parents talked about him too. You know that is, that is not an innocent period. That is certainly not an innocent period. And certainly the Cold War, the whole concept of Russia, and the nuclear bomb. That is not an innocent period. So, there is a lot- KB: 12:02 No, definitely. SM: 12:03 -going on leading into the (19)60s. So, for sure. KB: 12:05 Yeah, that is a great example. I wish I had thought of it, a terrific example. SM: 12:11 When, I have a question here, too, regarding your, the knowledge of the (19)50s, (19)60s, and (19)70s, and looking back and forward, as a historian, this is just your technique, and writing is so good. You go back to periods, and then you, you know, in the area of the Vietnam War, or foreign policy, in the area of civil rights, in the area how government overseas, or sexuality. Did when, when you saw that picture in that book- KB: 12:44 [laughter] SM: 12:45 -of the, Cahills were you thinking all of this at the very beginning? Or were you just fascinated by that picture? And by the way, I have that book. [laughter] KB: 12:56 No, I had, I was just fascinated by the picture, there was something about that photo, that, and I cannot even tell you what it was that really hooked me. When I, you have the book, you know that the caption does not even tell you, it says, "Patriotic American on the west side of Chicago, 1961," that is all it says. There is no mention of Cahill, there is no mention of who these people are, does not say where on the west side of Chicago. I was just fascinated by that picture. And then when I started teaching, over the years, of teaching that course, that I mentioned at Ohio State, I kept being pulled back to that picture. And at some point, or another, I thought, man, it is kind of embarrassing that I am showing these kids this picture. And I have no idea who these people even are. And so that is when I started to look for their story, that was a completely random search for a story because it started with this picture. And it was only as I started to learn who they are that I started to see [inaudible]. These people really are emblematic of a really kind of key dynamic of the 1960s that gets almost no attention. And that so, they became something, that their story became something that I could hang a bigger analytical point on. But no, it all started with looking at that picture, God knows when, and thinking, man, that is interesting. SM: 14:23 You know, you used two words or two ideas, and they are so important in this book, and particularly when you are talking about the person you just talked about, but you are also talking about my parents, and you are talking about the post-World War II generation, the people that came home from the war, and that is that issue of security, and upward mobility. KB: 14:42 Yeah-yeah. SM: 14:43 I mean, that is so, that is so truthful. He talked about truth. That is truth. That was the truth. KB: 14:50 I really appreciate that. Yeah, and that was the key for me, with that photo once I started putting, getting some information about it. Because it is, in many ways, it is a simple matter of math. That when you see Stella Cahill in the back of that photo, right, tucked away in the back. And I cannot, let me see, it was 1961. She was born in 1960. Right? So she would have been 44-45, because she was 44 at the time because senator birthday. And all you got to do is the math, if you were 44 in 1961, what that means is that you were born at a time, you lived through some of the greatest upheavals of the 20th century, right? You lived through the Great Depression, you lived through World War II as a young adult, kid in the Depression, a young adult in World War II, I had no idea that they had also lived through the terror of the Spanish flu, where she lost her father, and the poverty of the working class, of the lower end of the working class. I had no idea that was the story I was going to find that was just what I came up with. But, the point is that this was a woman. Like your parents probably, like, my friends, they do it a little different because they did not grow up in the United States. But does not matter, the point is that all, these millions and millions of people in the United States who had lived these lives of profound insecurity, and that they finally have this chance to have a life, that is not spectacular, there is nothing extraordinary about the Cahill story. But, that is the beauty of it, see is that they are able to build the safe, stable sense of, you know, of kind of boring lives that I really admired to that. The problem is that those were lives that were bounded by these other forces, right? That their life out on that, very ordinary side street, way out on the west side of Chicago, was bounded by race. There was not a single Black person in that picture in a city that was a quarter Black by 1968. [crosstalk] SM: 17:06 Go ahead, no you go ahead. KB: 17:09 Obviously, they did not think about that. It was not like they were, they owned that house since the (19)20s. This was not the case, their story was not the case of white flight. My guess is it never crossed their mind much about whether Black people lived in their neighborhood or not, it was a naturalized thing. It so happened that the Cahill family and again, this is just wind block, made their living on a firm that relied on the military industrial complex. Now they did not make big bombs, they made coffee yearns for the military, [chuckles] but they were tied in military industrial complex. They grew up, their kids grew up in very parochial worlds, those Catholic schools, and their Catholic parish. So, they lived in a society that was bounded by all these restrictions that often-excluded other people, or that played on power relations, relied on power relationships. Those are the very things that get challenged in the (19)60s. SM: 18:09 When you, those same categories again, when you get into the (19)60s, and you talk about the Vietnam War, you talk about the Civil Rights Movement, and of course, the issue of sex, you know, the Roe vs, versus Wade, and all the other things. It is, that creates a tension of its own. KB: 18:27 Yep. SM: 18:27 You know, civil rights creates tension in the, in the racist community who are white people who believe in white supremacy, you got, you know, Vietnam War, when people are coming home, you know, how they were treated when they got home. You know, veterans had a hard time, they were not treated well- KB: 18:44 Right. SM: 18:44 -when they returned from the war. So you really hit it, you really hit it very well. I one of the most important things in this book, and you bring it up to is talking to ordinary Americans. You know, we can talk- KB: 18:59 Yeah. SM: 18:59 -we all know about a lot of the civil rights leaders, the Black Power leaders, the politicians in Washington, and leaders who are elected, well known leaders of movements, but it is your ability to talk to the ordinary person like the Cahills and, and others. Could you talk about that, how important that is in the history of any era? KB: 19:20 Yeah, that is really fundamental to me. There is no doubt that powerful people, presidents, and Supreme Court justices, and major civil rights leaders, major movement leaders are important that they shape history, they do. And I think that we are fooling ourselves if we somehow claim they do not. So I think things that are fundamental parts of the story, of the 1960s. But it is also important to see how ordinary people shape and are shaped by large historical forces. To me that is the, that is the part of history that I really love dealing with. I mean, my wife will tell you that I maybe just got a little more fixated, and I should have been a Cahill. [laughter] You know, because I found it so fascinating to dive into an ordinary person's experience, and a huge part of the (19)60s history, about the ways that ordinary people intersect with these large stories. And so, one of the things I have tried to do, the Cahills were the biggest example. One of the things I tried to do throughout the book was weave in the stories that other people swept up in the moments of the 1960s that I think are so pivotally important. So it was important to me to talk about Elizabeth Eckford, walking down the street in front of the troops in front of Little Rock High School in 1957. It was important to me to talk about the Roe v. Wade story through Norma McCorvey in Roe, you know, whose life is very complicated, because ordinary lives are very complicated. And I wanted to get a sense of that story out to, or what I see, as you know, that really fundamental tragedy of Alison Krauss at Kent State, you know, and of course, we know about the events at Kent State it is not like I am uncovering something that has not been written about a million times. But I wanted to do was to find an angle on it that got the human story of Kent State through. And so, I what I did was tried to talk about the reporter going back to her high school to find out what he [inaudible] about her, after her killing, after her murder at Kent State, because I wanted the sense of the tragedy of that event. And the way you get at that is to the experiences, the intimate experiences of ordinary people. SM: 21:57 Yeah, I actually go to Kent State, I have been to 14 remembrance events at Kent State. And- -and I, you kind of get the feel that you know, all four of the people that died there. You get to know who they were- KB: 22:03 Wow. I bet. SM: 22:11 -even though you never met them. And of course, the nine that were wounded, but also how important it is that they have never forgotten at Kent State, those that died at Jackson State, which, a lot of America has forgotten, but certainly at Kent State they have not. And so, when you look at the, the three areas that you talk about in the book where "The Shattering," took place, I have interviewed a lot of people. And I asked a question regarding what was the watershed moment of the (19)60s. KB: 22:15 Oh, yeah. SM: 22:42 Watershed event, a one event that defined the period or you feel had one of the greatest impacts on that decade or the, plus the early (19)70s. And, and of course, there is civil rights, there is Vietnam. But for you, I am talking about you as a historian, I know you have picked three, but is there, Is there one that stands out above everything else? KB: 23:15 Yes, absolutely, it is really a great question. And I know keep saying that, but actually, these are terrific questions. The pivotal event of the 1960s, in my mind, is the Children's Crusade in Birmingham in the spring of 1963. Because what that does, is that is the moment in that event, that "The Shattering," really takes place. It is there that the political alignments that have defined American, the American public life for decades and decades just get shattered open. In that moment where the president of the United States was finally forced to decide which side am I on. And it is at that moment, that the political space of the 1960s that the political realignments of the 1960s are created. So it is, I am not saying that, that event shapes everything that follows, but it creates a new context for everything that follows. SM: 24:22 Very good, you know, that march on Washington in (19)63 was something and- KB: 24:28 That is, I think that is one of the great misunderstood events. I mean, now there has been a lot of good scholarly work on that, though, I am not sure how far it reaches. But the thing that, now I am going to get sort of preachy, [chuckles] kind of literally, I think. What I, one of the things I found most difficult in teaching the course, and I try to do with the book as well, is not simply to say and this is the way scholarship has gotten to say, you know, this was about much more than civil rights. It was about the fusion of civil rights and economic troubles and that is absolutely true, and that is really important. What I find maddening, understandable, but maddening is the way that people dismiss [Dr.] King's, "I Have a Dream," speech. And the problem is that as Americans, we have heard it too often, and so it has become a cliché, it has become a string of clichés. And because of that, it is impossible to hear how radical a speech that is. It is impossible to hear the point of that speech that what King is doing in that speech, is he is holding up in the most powerful and public of moments, this radical vision of the beloved community. And one of the things I really try, I do not know how effectively I did, but it was really important to me is to restore, well, let me put it this way, one of the things that scholarship has done, and it is a good thing that scholarship has done, not being critical of that is it is tried to revive the radical king, the king who talked about fundamental economic change. And that is really important. And I agree 100 percent, with the value of doing that. The problem for me in that is that what we have, underplayed and sometimes really are quite dismissive of, is the radicalism of his religious vision. He was first and foremost a religious figure, that there is a profound radicalism in the religious vision that he is presenting to the United States. And I would love to see more of an emphasis on that. But when he talks about when he talks about passive resistance, when he talked about radical love, when he talked about these fundamentally religious topics of redemption, what he was doing was presenting Americans with an alternative way of living, of conceiving their relationship to each other, and to the nation. And why we see, why we dismiss that is just kind of ridiculous idealism, and embrace as radical, an economics agenda is because we are too locked into a very strict sense of what counts as radical. Now, of course, the economic agenda is radical, but so is this vision where he was saying to Americans, "You can, in fact, we replace hatred with love," that is a radical vision. That is a radical reconstruction of the ways that the nation operated and that human beings related to each other. And yet, somehow, we see that it is just kind of rhetoric. SM: 27:42 Dr. King, was an amazing human being in so many ways. You know, he created not only tension, he created tension within his own group, within the African American community. He did not- KB: 27:54 Oh yeah. SM: 27:55 wave like a, "I am going to go to Chicago, there is a lot of racism up north." While he got there, many people in the, in, you know, other civil rights leader says "No, it is in the South," no, it is also in the north. And he went north and knew no one, you were explaining it in your book. Then, of course, his speech on Vietnam. Oh, no, you know, you do not give a shit about Vietnam. You know, it is, you know, you got to deal with civil rights issues at home. And, and then, the challenge of Black power when Stokely Carmichael or H. Rap Brown, you know, you represent more gradualist approach, we are going to, you know, we are just going to do it. KB: 28:08 Yep. Yeah-yeah. SM: 28:34 Everything King was doing was creating tension in not only communities that were racist, but also in communities that supported what he was doing, but did not like the techniques that he was using. KB: 28:49 Yeah, absolutely. I think that is absolutely right. SM: 28:53 Yeah, in the four presidents that you talk about in the book, you did a great job on all of them. And you give a lot on Eisenhower, which I am glad you did. Because, when you are talking about the (19)60s, oh, he is he is meeting John Kennedy, the day of the election, and talking about Vietnam, and all this other stuff, but it was much more than that. Of the four presidents, when you think of the (19)60s, it is Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon. Which one do you feel had the greatest impact on the (19)60s? KB: 29:25 That is a great question. I keep saying that [chuckles], but I am really fascinated by that. You know, I think it depends on which angle you look at it from. I was, I was surprised myself how important Dwight Eisenhower turned out to be. But and how it kind of, he hovered over the (19)60s as this kind of model that people were, firstly Richard Nixon wanted to emulate. But I think I would argue that it is a balance between Lyndon Johnson for the dramatic moment, the ways in which he actually embraced change, and by the forces of reaction that he originally or even getting there so that he unleashed that I think particularly of the backlash against civil rights, and the kind of more conservative critique of the Vietnam War. And Nixon, who I think to this day has a really enduring impact on American society, and it is one of the ironies of the 1960s, is that here is this period of deep and profound change that results in a kind of conservative reconstruction of American society. And Nixon is a fascinating figure in that reconstruction. Which is, [crosstalk] so, given Kennedy, kind of the least, importance in the 1960s. SM: 31:18 Do you- KB: 31:18 Which is also surprising. SM: 31:20 -yeah there was, there was thoughts also that there were 2 (19)60s. Now, I have read this in books. There were 2 (19)60s, there was a period 1960 to (19)63, and then there was a period (19)64 to (19)75, because a lot of people talk about the (19)60s as the early (19)70s, too. Your thought on that, and of course, it revolves around the assassination of President Kennedy, and the impact that had on America, and the world. KB: 31:49 I think I do believe that the (19)60s periodization, pushing, definitely pushes into the early (19)70s. I used, once upon a time I think, people, this is a long time ago now, people had a tendency to kind of cut things off in 1968. I think that, that really ruptures important continuity. So I agree with the extension of the period into the (19)60s into the early (19)70s. I am a little less inclined to see that really sharp distinction in the 1960s. I think there is a lot more. There is, it is not just it is not continuity, but I think that the break is not as sharp as that concept of two 1960s suggests it is, I think there is more of a coherent narrative between those periods. There is, there is clearly changes (19)65, I think, is a really important, transformational moment in that, that is the point where the war escalates, that is where voting rights is secure, that is where Griswold was handed down. That is why I devote a chapter to what I called, "The Revolutions of 1965." But I do not, I am a little less convinced by the idea of our kind of (19)60s, the early idealism, and then the divisions later on, the divisions were pretty deep in the early (19)60s too, and the 1950s, as well. SM: 33:16 I think some people try to, who were believing in those 2 (19)60s. We were saying that, well, there was violence in the, well, it all started with the violence against J.F.K., and it just continued. It was violence, and but there was violence going on before that [chuckles] in the south. KB: 33:36 Exactly-exactly. SM: 33:37 So they are generalizing kind of. Now, some of the, I like your thoughts too on the civil rights organizations of the (19)60s. Certainly Snick was a very important one, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference Corps, the Urban League, the Black Panthers, the NAACP. Could you talk about, about some of these organizations, and the impact that they had on the (19)60s? And age had a lot to do with some of these too, because Snick were mostly young people. And, but the- KB: 33:40 That is the SCLC. I mean, it was, so was SCLC- SM: 34:16 Huh? KB: 34:16 -you know, I mean, one of the things that is so startling to my students is how young Martin Luther King was, you know, when the Montgomery Bus Boycott started, in (19)55, he was what, 25? SM: 34:16 Right. Yes. [laughter] KB: 34:28 You know, he always seemed older, but he is, but in any case. So in creating the breakthrough moment of the civil rights movement, that moment that runs from the Children's Crusade in (19)63 through Selma in (19)65. That is really good at this critical breakthrough moment. There is no doubt that Snick and SCLC are the driving forces. because they are the organizations that are pushing the direct confrontation of nonviolent protest in the American south, without their pushing that, then the breakthrough moment would not have happened. And that is a really dramatic and challenging moment in a lot of ways. Children's Crusade in (19)63 is an incredibly complex thing to think about because it was about risking children's lives. And there is a serious moral question that runs through that decision to bring kids as young as 8, 9, 10 into the streets of Birmingham, knowing they have could have been killed. But Snick and SCLC [inaudible] two civil rights activism of that period. That get, they are challenged more and more by this long tradition, that runs through the nation of Islam stretches back to Garveyism to the nation of Islam, and then through its movement, Black nationalism, over to Snick in the mid-1960s. The division, the long-standing divisions in Black political life, come to the forefront in the mid-1960s, first with Snick's turn to Black Power in (19)66, (19)65-(19)66 with it is breakthrough in (19)66. And then with the rise of the Black Panthers, really in (19)68, so the Panthers had theirs- SM: 34:42 Right. KB: 34:46 - in (19)67-(19)68. With so, with the rise of Black power, and here is one of the things to me, that was really important to me, in writing the latter parts of the book. The NAACP, everybody in kind of moderate wing of the movement, I think has the most radical moment of the rights activism in the entire 1960s. And that is the movement towards the integration of public schools in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s via busing, that is the most radical social experiment of the entire 1960s racial movement. Because what that does, but the NAACP does with that part of the Civil Rights is it says, no longer should it be completely on the shoulders of Black people, particularly Black, young Black people, children to bear the burden of racial change. Now, it's got to be shared by white families as well. And what that does is it pushes the civil rights movement into parts of white America that it had never touched before. There was a huge swath of white suburban America in the 1960, that, of course, saw the civil rights protests on T.V., but of course, saw it in the newspapers, but it did not touch their lives. They did not have Black people living in their neighborhoods, there was nobody sitting down at a lunch counter anywhere in suburban Chicago or suburban Detroit. And then suddenly, what the NAACP does with the busing movement, is it says, oh, no, you are part of the solution too. That is the most radical moment of civil rights activists in the 1960s. At the same time, I am not trying to diminish the Panthers. But, here were the Panthers who were talking about radical change, but whose primary program was a free breakfast program for poor kids. I am not saying there is anything wrong with the free breakfast program. I am simply saying, that is a pretty mild program you got going on there, when you are talking about the revolutionary change. Here is the NAACP that everybody thinks of as racial moderate, who defined themselves as racial moderates, for a good part of the 1960s who are pushing change that is going to bring racial change directly into the homes of millions of white people across the country. And that is fascinating to me. SM: 39:07 Snick, the people that were in Snick, the leaders that came from this is unbelievable. KB: 39:14 Oh. SM: 39:15 I was looking at the list just last week, there is about 60 names of people who went on to become, you know, in all walks of life, leaders of organizations, running for office heading- KB: 39:26 Yeah. SM: 39:26 -you know. Julian Barnes, just one of them. I mean, one other thing and just, I have heard this today, where are the leaders? Where are the Black leaders that used to be the leaders of the (19)60s and when you when you think about it, there is some truth. You had a Roy Wilkins, you know, Martin Luther King, you had a James Farmer, you had a Whitney Young, you had a Roy Wilkins. You had young people like John Lewis, and Robert Moses, and Stokely Carmichael, and Panthers like Bobby Seale, and you know, Fred Hampton, who was murdered, and-and Huey Newton, and then you think of Malcolm X, the Muslim, Muhammad Ali, [inaudible] with the young. It is just, they were on the news all the time they, you saw them there. They mean they were known. I do not, today, I do not really see that many. And, where are they? KB: 40:24 I think the media landscape has changed so dramatically. You know that here was, one of the really important I wish I had done more about this really, aspects of the 1960s was the novelty. The still novelty of television, you know that the idea of having T.V. news in your home was still 10 years, was new to a huge number of Americans, it did not have a history longer than about 10 years, in the early 1960s for most Americans. And in some ways that is comparable to the world that we now live in, where the generation that, of young people today are living with a technological world that they think of as natural, but is actually more than 10 years old, you know, the idea that you are having your news delivered to you on these multiple platforms that you carry around with you. And I think what that is done to a certain extent is that it is dissipated our sense of political movements. So that, you know, there were only three networks in most of America in the 1960s. They had the ability to kind of create public figures in a way that the more diffused media landscape does not, but that it has not changed, I think, the movement, the ability of a movement to build, if anything that I think it's accelerated it. You know, one of the things that I have stressed with my students lately is that, as a percentage of the nation, more people marched in the protests after George Floyd's murder, in the summer of 2020, then marched at any point in the course of the 1960s. So of course, when in the 1960s, about 10 percent of the population, participated in at least one march or protest, somewhere in the course of the 1960s. Ninety percent of Americans never joined a protest anywhere in the course the 1960s. In the summer of 2020, somewhere about 14 percent of Americans joined at least one march. SM: 42:45 Wow. KB: 42:48 It can still be there. But I think like you said, the sense of kind of key personalities at the start of them. That is changed. SM: 42:58 That word, that comes up in the (19)60s all the time, the word about freedom. KB: 43:04 Yeah. SM: 43:05 When you think, I, you look at some of the main events and Freedom Summer, which was so historic in 1964, you had- KB: 43:13 Yeah. SM: 43:13 -you had the Freedom Rides early in the (19)60s, you had the free speech movement at Berkeley, which is a historic happening. And of course, the man who led that movement at Berkeley was one of the young people at Freedom Summer, Mario Savio. Your thoughts on the word, "freedom," with respect to all the things that were happening in the (19)60s, in terms of the three categories you are talking about and how important that word is? KB: 43:42 Yeah, it is, it is a fundamentally important word that had different meanings for different people. So that when the civil rights activists of Freedom Summer, or the activists have the Freedom Rides used that word, they meant freedom from oppression, freedom from the oppression of the Jim Crow system. Free speech is connected, as you said, that there is a direct line from Mississippi to Mario Savio up to Berkeley that fall, but there is an expression of freedom from structures of, kind of, university structures of mass education. And then you get to the politics of freedom that runs through say Haight Ashbury in the Summer of Love, there it is freedom from constraint. And that is a really, very different sense of freedom, you can do as you want to do, was a very different sense of freedom than John Lewis on a bus challenging the segregation of bus stations. SM: 45:01 Right. KB: 45:02 That is a very different concept. And it is one of the tensions that went through the (19)60s, and that runs through, that, individuals should be free to do as they choose. And another to say, individuals should be free from systems of oppression. That is a really, very different things. SM: 45:27 The birth of beats played a very important role in the (19)60s too, in terms of, they were ahead, ahead of their time in the (19)50s. But they all had, they had an influence too, and they were, everything and everything they were about is freedom. [chuckles] KB: 45:42 Yeah. SM: 45:42 Do it, do it my way. [chuckles] KB: 45:44 And that is another really good example of the (19)50s as being a much more complicated period than we think of it as being, right. SM: 45:53 Yeah. What is the, you know I have, I have been amazed and I have thought about this ever since I was in college, and now I am in my early (19)70s. And that is, why does Vietnam, this war, it was not World War II, it was not World War I, it was not Korea. It was not the Gulf War, while the Gulf War was not that big, but it was not the, the wars in the Middle East. What is it about this war from (19)59 to (19)75, that has really shaped this nation, not only his foreign policy, but in everything? Why-why has the Vietnam War continue to have such an effect on our society? George Bush in 1989 said that, "The Vietnam syndrome was over," when I heard that I said, "Where has he been?" And, [laughter] that was, that was in 1989. But just your thoughts, why does Vietnam still, to this day affect us in so many ways? KB: 46:58 I think there is multiple reasons for that. One really obvious one, is that and it ties back to something we were talking about a couple minutes ago, Vietnam was the first, in some ways almost the last, televised war, so that suddenly what Americans could see who had never been to war. So, you are not talking about World War II veterans, but their families or younger families, could actually see if what war actually looks like, and war is a horrific thing to see. So I do think that was one key piece of it. For the first time, you know, Americans, the American government censored World War II, and obviously, the means of communication were different, to a really dramatic degree, so that Americans could see, you know, the war movies where nobody bleeds, it is a whole different thing to see the footage of someone getting shot in the head on the streets of Saigon, or the young girl running down the street, down the road, being napalmed, to the photos from me live, to see the horror, that war actually is, is one key part of that. Another key part of it is the really, really deep effects that the war has, in turn, and I think we still underplayed this, in terms of domestic economic policy. And I do try to play a bit more about this, the war has an absolutely destructive effect on the American economy that gets replayed over and over again in the United States, in the decades since with the triggering of inflation, with the destruction of the post-war international economic order, so I do think that is a key part of it, as well. And then there is this fascinating thing that happens with our sense of the anti-war movement it is two fascinating things, because there is, of course, a massive anti-war movement, or as I try to suggest in the book, there are multiple anti-war movements in the United States. One of the things that is odd about our sense of the anti-war movement, is that when we tend to think of World War II is the standard by which we measure American wars, when in fact, World War II is the anomalous war, Americans have always had strong protest movements against wars. They just come in different forms. There is a massive anti-war push against the Civil War. There were strong oppositions to World War I. There were strong oppositions to the Philippine Wars and the Spanish American War. There was massive opposition in particular forms to Korea. The popularity of the Korean War just absolutely plummeted in the course of that war and it certainly fueled the rise, not the creation, but the rise of McCarthyism. But somehow, we see the anti-war move into the night of Vietnam, as somehow really new and different. Now, they are in their form, they are very large, and that is certainly traumatic. But I think that is kind of lodged, that is that Vietnam syndrome, right. SM: 50:23 Right. KB: 50:23 Somehow the United States government is complicit in a disastrous war, which of course, the United States government was complicit in disastrous war. That is what we have to shake, that we are going to make the military strong again, and beloved again, then we are going to prove the United States could be a world power that it was before Vietnam. It is just funny that we tend to think of it as anomalous when in fact, it is in the American tradition. That is what Lyndon Johnson was terrified of, not afraid of [inaudible], of the left but of the anti-war movement of the right, which he assumed he was going to get slammed by, which was what had destroyed Harry Truman and Korea, it is the anti-war movement of the right. And we actually see that playing out today, where it is a great criticism of U.S. involvement in Ukraine is from the right. And that ran through Vietnam as well. So, I think Vietnam has an outsized influence, because of the visuals of it, because it did in fact, have an outsized effect on society. And because of that anti-war movement, that, or anti-war movements that were so fundamental to the polarization of American politics. SM: 51:47 The war, not only those who participated in the war, we knew what was going on over in Vietnam. What was happening in civil rights in America was actually happening with a lot of the African American soldiers in Vietnam. KB: 52:00 That is right. SM: 52:01 The experience they have and they were certainly dying in large numbers too, with their names that are now on the Vietnam Memorial. But- KB: 52:08 Yeah. SM: 52:08 -it is also the fact that when-when they came home, there was no welcome for the Vietnam vets. KB: 52:14 Yes, yep. SM: 52:15 And it took the building of a wall in 1982, to, for the first time the Vietnam vets, they were welcomed home, and tried to heal the nation, but no other war, that I can think of, had where Americans just kind of said nothing, or looked down on this. KB: 52:36 Yeah, I agree completely. And I think the American soldiers experience in Vietnam, not all-American soldiers, obviously, but the American soldiers experience in Vietnam was for them, I think so profoundly disillusioning because of the way the war was fought. And then they come, they came home to a sense that what they had done, was not recognized was not valued, was some cases, seen as in fact, complicit in war crimes. And, it is devastating because I will give you a really small example, I lived, when I was teaching at UMass, I lived in a small town. I did not live in Amherst, I lived in a small town outside of Amherst, I could not afford Amherst. And every Memorial Day, there would be the Veterans of Foreign Wars would do a little parade. And, veterans refused to allow the Vietnam vets to march in their parade, this is, you know, the late 1990s. Because, and so they barred the Vietnam veterans from our little town to participate in the parade on Memorial Day. SM: 53:53 Wow. KB: 53:54 And you know, I guess that would be the more conservative version of disrespecting those soldiers experience and those soldiers sacrifice. SM: 54:06 Yeah, I am. One of the individuals I interviewed, John Morris, who is a Vietnam vet from the Westchester area, when he came home somebody took them to the Veterans of Foreign Wars Office and they told him to leave because, because he was a Vietnam vet, and yes, John is unbelievable. Before I ask my next question, there is something here regarding John Kerry's speech too that I thought was very important during the war, when Vietnam Veterans Against the War threw their, you know their-their medals away, and then John Kerry spoke before the Foreign Relations Committee. I think that is a powerful speech, a very powerful- KB: 54:46 It is. SM: 54:47 -very powerful speech, but the man who allowed that, that hearing to take place Senator William Fulbright, he had written several books that were classics on the Vietnam War, you probably We read them. But he, I mean, yeah, we ended up bringing, I took a group of students to see William Fulbright before he died down to Washington. And, and he was, he wanted to know why, I knew Senator Gaylord Nelson, so we actually talked about the war. And I took pictures, and then I took pictures of him with our students, and then I had put it in my office. And we invited Harry Edwards to campus, you know, Dr. Harry Edwards from Berkeley who was- -and of course, he was the one of the leaders of the protests at Cornell in (19)69, and the (19)68 protests in the, and everything. And Dr. Edwards came in and said, "What is that picture doing here? Why do you have a picture of that cracker?" [laughs] Yeah, in your office, and I explained to him, "Well, I know that, you know that Senator Fulbright was not good in the area of race relations, but he was really good in the area of foreign relations and, and, and he had already apologized for what he had done in the, in the one area, but he was powerful in the other area, trying to save lives." But I just want to throw that as an anecdote. [laughs] KB: 55:29 Yes. Yeah. And you know what it says to me, the world is a complicated place. We all do better to recognize it. [chuckles] SM: 55:38 Yeah. [chuckles] One, one very powerful moment you talk about in your book, too, is when Black power came to be. When Stokely Carmichael, H. Rap Brown, you know, he was really, he was really to the extreme left but, but it was Stokely and his challenge of Dr. King, Bayard Rustin, James Farmer, young Louis Bebo, all the loss and all the civil rights leaders who believed in non-violence. That was, the Dr. King's beloved community versus Black power. Could you talk about that? Because that was powerful happening. KB: 56:56 Oh, yeah. So, I think this comes back to something we talked about a good bit ago now. That, the tradition of Black nationalism, Black power, is very deep in the Black community. So it stretches back at least to the 19, late 19th century, this argument that essentially says, "Look, people are never going to agree, just surrender their power, we have to force them to, and we have to do it, or we have to separate ourselves out from the Black, the white community as the only way to build to safety and security for our community." That is a long tradition. And one of the things that happens in the 1950s, and particularly in the 1960s, is that whites are confronted with that tradition for the first time. So, they see Malcolm X and they think this is coming out of nowhere. It is not, it is coming out of this long political tradition, but it is a minority political tradition inside the Black community. It always was, it is in the course of the 1960s. And so when Stokely Carmichael embraces, creates that phrase of "Black power," and nationalizes that phrase it causes massive media attention. The other side of the, the Black political traditions, the sides that is represented by the NAACP, or by Dr. King, or by John Lewis. They have their, Rushton is probably the smartest analyst at this moment in my mind. They say, "We know this, this, it is not like we have never heard of this idea before. This is part of the political tradition in our community. But whites are going to be terrified by it." And as Rushton says over and over again, "We are in minority community. And so we cannot have, we cannot afford to have a politics that alienates whites, because they have got, they have got the real power here." And his great fear, and he is coming from another, a different political tradition, is great fear is what Black power is going to do, it is going to intensify the white backlash, and it does. So, the truth of the matter is that while Black nationalism is not new, while it is a powerful expression, and powerful critique of white society, and I think, in my mind, a really important critique of white society, politically, it is got disastrous consequences, because white support for civil rights was always dead. And what King had done is he had managed to build up enough white support to push through these fundamental changes in the law, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. And, but he knew how thin it was at the height of the nonviolent movement in 1963, about half of white Americans think that it is a violent movement. [chuckles] Because they are so ingrained with the idea that Black people are violent. And it is such a troupe of American racism. King knows how thin it is and what Black power does is it plays to that. It said, it plays on that idea of what you, you think I am about, you are right. But, it is your fault. And that is a really dangerous politics to play in the United States. Because as Rushton realizes, losing white support is so harmful to a movement, to a minority movement in American society, in some ways what, this is the kind of odd turn and I am not sure I would even stand by it. So, let us see how this goes. In some ways, King's side of the movement, Rushton's side of the movement, NAACP's side of the movement, they actually might have understood the depth of white racism better than Black power does. Because Black power has at its heart, one piece of itself that seems to think that whites aren't going to assert the power they have, whereas King, knows they will. SM: 56:58 Yeah. Yeah, that was a great analysis there, excellent. And I know, Malcolm X was one of the required readings in the sixth. I went to Binghamton University, and I remember reading the book on Malcolm X, and by "any means necessary," was kind of a scary term. [chuckles] We will do anything- KB: 1:01:44 Yep. SM: 1:01:44 -or we will shoot if we have to, that was kind of the, but-but-but if you know, Malcolm, you know, he grew and evolved over time. And that the last two years of his life, he was changing, I think, in much better ways. And then sadly, he was murdered. And, we never will know those ways that he would have gone. KB: 1:02:06 Yeah. SM: 1:02:08 The other thing here is, during the (19)60s, there were many movements. I know, you have made mention in your book that, you know you concentrated on civil rights, but they are, the (19)60s was about the movements to as well. It is not just the civil rights movement, but the gay rights, the women's movement, the environmental movement, Native American movement, Chicano movement, even the farmworkers movement. And of course, the Vietnam veteran’s movement. And so, your thoughts on that? Was not, but I think civil rights movement was the model that most of them used. KB: 1:02:43 Yeah, absolutely. Civil rights is both, it is, you said, it is both the models that they used, the inspiration for those other movements. And it is the pathbreaking movement, as I said, you know, as we were talking, maybe half an hour ago, I said, since that, that sort of, march from 1963 is so fundamentally important, because it opens up that space, it opens up the space for other movements to then step in as well. You know, take the women's movement, for instance, National Organization of Women is founded out of the 1964 Civil Rights Act, which is a creation of those children in the streets of Birmingham. So, that case is kind of a direct line. The united farmworkers movement comes out of grassroots organizing that is very much tied to the King model, you know, it runs through [inaudible] in Chicago, but it is very much tied to King models, a shortcut that is for safe, kind of grassroots activism, that people like Ella Baker was so important in defining. So, one of the painful things for this bucket, and I mentioned this in the introduction, one of the painful movements, things about this book is say, I am going to leave important stories out, right, because what I want to do is I want to have these tight focus on what I think are the really critical, the most important of all those important movements. And, you know, it pains me I mean, it is I was finishing the book, especially on Latino politics. It really pains me to leave that out. But, I do agree that civil rights is the standard by which other movements are set. SM: 1:04:31 Yeah, and it is a well-known fact that people that were involved in the anti-war movement, used the civil rights movement as their model. KB: 1:04:39 Absolutely-absolutely. SM: 1:04:39 And over and over again. And you talk also, you know, when Black power came, and challenged of nonviolent protest. That-that happened in the anti-war movement too, when the weathermen, you know Students for Democratic Society. KB: 1:04:41 Yep. SM: 1:04:43 You know, they, people would quit SDS, if they had, they had to go all the way of the weathermen. KB: 1:05:02 Yeah. SM: 1:05:03 That violence was not the way, because you know, violence in the end, never solves anything. KB: 1:05:08 Well, and on top of that, you know, the federal government is, wields, has at its disposal, a level of violence power that is so greater than any social movement is going to have. Now, I am not trying to say that the federal government is inherently a violent organization. It just has greater power. This is wonderful moment. Remember the old "Eyes on the Prize," series. There is this great moment in the episode that deals with Mississippi, University of Mississippi crisis in (19)62. And they are interviewing, the filmmakers are interviewing Burke Marshall, in the Justice, Kennedy Justice Department. And he says this really fundamentally true thing. He said, "You know, these people down in Mississippi," and he is talking about white people in Mississippi, "They can fund the federal government. But in the end, the federal government is going to win. Because if the federal government wants to it can send the battleship down the Mississippi River." And that is fundamentally true, the weathermen could talk about staging days of rage. But in the end, if it came to it, they were not going to topple the federal government, you know, when the urban rebellions hit in cities like Detroit, in the end, they were repressed by massive force, and people were killed. That is the challenge of movements that embrace violence, but it is, it can be even an understandable decision, right? That you have tried the nonviolence it does not seem to be making the changes you want to see. But in the end, the federal government or state and the state government, for that matter, have way more violent capabilities. SM: 1:05:41 Oh, yes. I remember that, you may remember this too. There was a paper back that came out I think it was in the (19)70s by Ovid Demaris called "America the Violent." [laughs] So and, it goes into the, that violence is all bad. KB: 1:07:19 Yep. SM: 1:07:20 But, America is very used to it. KB: 1:07:23 Very, yes. SM: 1:07:24 Yeah. Colonel Harry Summers, I do not know if you have heard of him. He is the, he is the man, the original editor of Vietnam Magazine, and he was an author- -of a couple of books on strategy in Vietnam, once told me we were trying to get him to come to speak at Westchester University to be, for our, when we bought the traveling Vietnam memorial, and we did a four-day event, and we had Vietnam War programs the entire semester. And sadly, he died of cancer before he could come. But he told me over the phone, that college professors who teach courses on the (19)60s on the Vietnam War, rarely talk about the war from a military point of view, mostly from the protester's point of view, or the politician's point of view. So, think tank point of view. Your thoughts on that? Because he was adamant on that, and he was the founder of Vietnam magazine. And, he was actually writing a speech. And I said, when he died, I tried to say, "Can-can I get that speech from his wife," wife said, "No." But he had written a speech to present and I am sure the wife has also passed away. But your thoughts on that, that the universities that have been concentrating on teaching courses on the Vietnam War and on the (19)60s, rarely present the military point of view? KB: 1:07:32 Oh, yes. Yeah, I think that is actually a valid criticism. I think that is fair. You know that, I mean, obviously, I cannot speak for everybody who teaches a course. But, that certainly would be my impression as well. And, I think I probably do quite a bit of that myself. And I think that is probably a valid criticism. SM: 1:09:08 Yeah, I just bought two books from a used bookstore, and it is the U.S. Army books on the Vietnam War, so. [laughs] And they were expensive. [crosstalk] KB: 1:09:19 Like that, you know, those federal government histories that come out of the Department of Defense, or they come out of other, they are great, you know, they are very particular kinds of history, but they are really useful. SM: 1:09:33 Well I, that three of them just came to this, and they were $50 apiece. I bought them. KB: 1:09:39 Oof. SM: 1:09:39 I, because I want them, I have never seen them before. So anyway, one of the other things is you talk about the ordinary people, could you list maybe a few more, not so well-known people from your book that people may not know, but their- KB: 1:09:55 Sure, so. SM: 1:09:56 -experiences are just as important as well-known people? KB: 1:09:58 Well, because we are talking about Vietnam, I talked about, I tell the story open the chapter on Vietnam, actually with this story of James Farley, who is an ordinary soldier in Vietnam in 1965, who ends up being featured in a Life Magazine story about the war. So, this sounds an awkward thing to say, I hope it does not sound jerky to say this. But the passage in the book that I am actually most proud of where I feel like strongest about is in that chapter, where I talk about ordinary soldiers who were killed in the war, 1966 to 1967. And I kind of list, people whose names I pulled randomly. Well, not randomly, but I pulled from the Vietnam War Memorial, from different parts of the country, and about their bodies coming home, and the flags being presented to their families. That is really important to me to talk about the ordinary soldiers, you know, who were drafted or who volunteered, and ended up as frontline troops in Vietnam. I mentioned talking about Norma McCorvey, that was really fundamentally important to me. All the way through, I try to bring in as many people as I could, whose story is people that maybe they know the events, but whose stories they do not necessarily know, so protesting against the war, like this, the folks or the kids at Kent State. I just think it is, again, I guess I am repeating myself, just so they feel like fundamentally, the one, both, the import, those powerful, important people we know, and those ordinary folks down in the neighborhoods, or down in these horrible moments. SM: 1:11:53 Very good. One of the things you say in the book, you quote Daniel Bell early in the book. KB: 1:12:02 I asked. [chuckles] SM: 1:12:03 Dan, and I actually interviewed Daniel Bell, he was not well, but I interviewed him up at Harvard. And the thing is, could you talk about that, what he said? KB: 1:12:15 Yeah, so this is one of the kind of classic senses again, it kind of takes us back to the 1950s, that you know we had entered into an age of consensus, that each was the great causes of the past had been set aside, and that we had created a consensus society and needless of that, I am not a big fan of increasing consensus society. And I just think that is, you know, I am a great admirer of technical writing, but it is fundamentally wrong, I think, to say that we are, the 1950s was a period, post-war period, is a period of consensus, is to say that, is to miss all those people that the consensus excluded. And, it is a huge portion. [chuckles] It is a substantial portion of American society, because it was not a consensus. The Civil Rights folks did not believe that there was a consensus in the United States, the beats, did not think we have a consensus in the United States. What happened in the 1950s was that Dwight Eisenhower, who was a brilliant politician, portrayed himself as a hapless one. This brilliant politician, managed to create a political coalition that pre-sagged the Republican majority, he was building the modern American Republican majority, not the one that exists now but, the one that would consolidate under Richard Nixon in 1972, was ticking away, it would already broke solid south, it carried most of the upper cells in both of his elections, he consolidated the white vote, white vote becomes Republican in the United States in 1952. And it has remained that way in every single election since then, except for 1964. But it actually starts in (19)52. He consolidated the connection between the upper end of the working class and the American middle class, particularly in suburban areas, he was building a Republican political coalition that, then gets and that is the, that is what we call a consensus is, in fact, a particular political alignment that was committed to certain things. Pursue a Cold War, but do it off the front pages, maintain racial segregation, but without the kind of brutality of the Jim Crow stuff, which is the democratic political order. We maintain middle class, middle brown culture that Dwight Eisenhower perfectly embodied that excluded people like gay and lesbian Americans. That is a political construction that Daniel Bell and other commentators in the 1960s, called a consensus. Well, it was not the consensus. It was a political culture that arranged particular groups of people, a lot of them in a particular order. And then the (19)60s, cracks that open, and what Richard Nixon tries to do, was his goal really, is to put it back together again. SM: 1:15:29 Yeah. KB: 1:15:30 Because he is in fact, trained by, in politics, by Dwight Eisenhower, he thinks of himself as trying to fulfill, to recreate what Dwight Eisenhower created. The problem, of course, is that he was not. He was no Dwight Eisenhower, [laughs] and that the changes of the (19)60s were not reversible in the way that Richard Nixon imagined them to be. So, that is why I think, you know, I start with Daniel Bell, because Daniel Bell sets that standard. We are a consensus society, the end of the ideology, but it is, it is wrong. SM: 1:16:03 Yeah, it is interesting when, when I did speak with him one, one name that came up that really drew his attention was Mark Rutte. [laughs] KB: 1:16:14 Hm, interesting. SM: 1:16:14 He had a lot, he had a lot of thoughts to say on Mark Rutte so, at Columbia University, so. KB: 1:16:21 Yeah. SM: 1:16:24 When you look at the Boomer Generation what, just your general thoughts on the Boomer Generation? Yeah, I-I asked this question early on in my interviews about the, you know, when I was young, even on this campus at Binghamton, there was this feeling, this aura of we were living in different times, and it was great to be young and, and all this other stuff, and we were going to be the change agents for the betterment of society. And it was, it was a youthful feeling. But, you know, we know the history now. Now, the boomers are now the oldest generation, per se. KB: 1:17:00 Yeah. SM: 1:17:01 And we are all reflecting on what really has been done. And in knowing that, in terms of those who participate, you talked about numbers, those who participated in any kind of an activity or protests or, you know, society's issues, it might have been 7 or 8 percent of that 74 or 76 million. Just your overall thoughts on the boomer generation, we are the most, the most unique generation in American history? KB: 1:17:30 No. [laughter] SM: 1:17:30 Okay. KB: 1:17:33 Really, no, that was not. That was a bit quick. Let me expand on that a little bit. I do think that what you said a minute ago, I think you said a couple of really important things a minute ago. Yes, there was a uniqueness to the Boomer Generation in that, that was a generation that grew up, that turned out to be this relative, this very brief period of stability and security for millions and millions of ordinary people. So, I think of, they grew up in the world fundamentally different than the one their parents grew up in, because they have that sense of security that their parents, in particular, my mother never had. That is important. And, when Tom Reid supports you on statement, that is one of the first things he says, right? We are the generation raised in comfort. So, I do think that makes it an unusual generation, an unusually lucky generation. I also think that you are absolutely spot on, to point out that the activist portion of that generation was never as big as people have come to think it was, and as boomers themselves have a tendency to think it was. And it is an understandable thing, I do not mean to be critical about it. But, memory has a way of turning everybody brave. There were massive numbers of young people who never joined the protest movement, who went to their classes, who got the degrees, if they were lucky to go, enough to go to college, which over half of them did not, who got the opportunity, you got married, you had children, who lived completely ordinary lives. I do not mean that as a criticism. I have great admiration for ordinary lives. But, it is not the story that people tend to tell themselves. I have given a lot of talks over the years on civil rights activism, and particularly, I cannot tell you how many white people in particular have told me they marched with Dr. King. Now I am sure some of them did- SM: 1:19:48 Right. KB: 1:19:48 -but a lot of them is that many white people were following Dr. King, every time he walked out the door that would have been a crowd of white people around. It is just the way that we tend to think of the past. We tend to, you know, there is clear studies of this. We tend to think of ourselves as always being on the right side of history. That is [inaudible]. So one of the things and we have talked a bit about ordinary people, I would have loved a bit more to tell you the truth on the Cahills, and they were the Cahills's children and their reasons that I did not follow that. I had more information that the Cahill family asked me not to use, and I honored that. It is about order, the boom, the Boomer Generation did have the great fortune of living in that particular moment of stability and security. But, they also lived ordinary lives, many-many of them. And yes, the minority were central to those changes, there was also a very strong conservative sentiment inside Boomer generation, a lot in the 1960s. A majority of college students, at least in (19)65, (19)66, (19)67, fully supported the Vietnam War. You know that is, that sentiment changed over time. But, support to the Vietnam War actually increased with educational level, except for those with graduate degrees. So, the more college education you had, the more education you had, high school to college, college to graduate school, or professional school, the more likely you were to support the Vietnam War. That is not surprising, given the dynamics of part one and looking at people understood, they were stuck with the war, in the way that people with higher education were not. That is one of the dynamics of the war. SM: 1:21:47 Yeah, and also, when you are teaching the (19)60s, another thing, if you are talking about the criticism, of what I talked about earlier, the conservatives, also were involved in the anti-war movement, and there was a- KB: 1:22:05 Yeah. SM: 1:22:06 -young America, I think it is Young Americans for Freedom or whatever. Definitely, Edwards has written about this, and that he is very concerned that if, you know, he teaches a course, I think at a Catholic school in Washington, D.C., and he teaches on the Vietnam War, and he makes sure that the conservative point of view is also part of the (19)60s- KB: 1:22:26 Yep. SM: 1:22:26 -because we you know, William Buckley, he is an important figure, I mean, his T.V. show with all the people he brought on. I mean, he is a very important figure because he brought everybody on that he opposed- KB: 1:22:38 Yep. SM: 1:22:38 -as well as people that he supported. And, and he had young people in the audience that were conservative and liberal. But I think talking a course on the (19)60s has to have the also the conservative point of view and the, you know, the student organizations that were against the war. KB: 1:22:54 Yeah, I think, I tried to get across it in the book is I think there were three anti-war movements. So it was a radical anti-war movement, one that we tend to think of as the anti-war movement. SM: 1:23:07 Yep. KB: 1:23:08 There was a liberal one that operated on different premises, you know, that did not see the war as a sign of the evil of American imperialism, that thought is a mistaken application of Cold War policies, the wrong place to be fighting on the right principle, and then there is a conservative anti-war movement. And that movement, wanted actually the escalation of the war, because they wanted, they believe U.S. was not using its power to its full effect. They wanted the 20 percent of American people in the 1960s, in (19)67, wanted the U.S. to use nuclear weapons on North Vietnam. And that movement and it had mass marches, there was a mass pro-war- -march in New York City in the spring of (19)67. There were massive marches, pre-war marches, or at least anti, anti-war marches in response to the march on the Pentagon in 19- [crosstalk] I think they call it the Hard Hat March. Was that the Hard Hat March or something like that? SM: 1:23:55 Right. KB: 1:24:08 And the hard hats in (19)70, which is tied with Cambodia invasion. SM: 1:24:16 Yeah, yep. KB: 1:24:17 That is a huge movement. And it just does, and people do not even know it is there. It plays in the polls enormously. You know, and they hate the war because what they hate it the way that the United States is pursuing the war. They do not like the way that it is a war of containment, instead of- SM: 1:24:36 Right. KB: 1:24:36 of a war of victory, and that it is killing American [inaudible]. SM: 1:24:41 I got four more questions. KB: 1:24:43 All right. SM: 1:24:44 The Vietnam Memorial opened in 1992, and its purpose was to, to heal the veterans, and their families. Those who served in the war and the families of those who lost loved ones in the war. It's done a pretty good job. I have witnessed that in person over the years. But the bottom line is this: Jan Scruggs wrote a book around the time the wall was, no 10 years after the wall was, sort of, called to heal a nation. Do you feel that Vietnam Memorial that is the second most visited memorial in Washington has healed our nation from this war? KB: 1:25:20 I think it helped America. A memorial can heal, can do all of that work. But I think it has helped. Like you I have been, like millions of Americans, I am not claiming anything exceptional. I have been to the wall, where you see veterans, touching the wall, putting personal tributes at the wall, and you realize what a powerful, you know, there was an awful lot, is it? Well, no, not a lot of controversy about the form that the memorial took. But I think it was, turned out to be a beautiful expression for veterans and their families. So, you know, I am a great admirer. As I think a lot of veterans are the beauty of that memorial. SM: 1:26:13 And also the Women's Memorial that opened in 1993. You know, the women had to fight for representation as well. KB: 1:26:21 Yeah. SM: 1:26:22 So, it is like everything connected to the (19)60s, there is battles [laughter] in everything and, and there has been some and they had, the three-man statue was a battle. I mean the, so in the course now there is thinking of a group that wants to do, pay honor to the dogs who served in Vietnam. Well, they put a stop to that. But- KB: 1:26:44 Yeah, that is probably a step too far, and I am a great dog lover. Oh, Rustin is fundamental. Because what Rustin does is, well, first of all, because he is a key component of one other strand of the civil rights movement, which is the strength of the civil rights movement that connects activism, racial activism, with radical pacifism, and with socialist politics. So, he is a bridge between various pieces of the movement between a piece of the movement that is tied to a Philip Randolph unionization, socialism, and to the radical pacifist tradition, which is a tiny little tradition in the United States. And it is through valve two connections, actually, that he becomes the, one of the architects of King's rise to prominence. You know, it is Rustin, who makes King, the national figure that he becomes after the Montgomery Bus Boycott, you can just see it in the newspapers, it is Rust, as he is taking this local, dramatic local story and turning it into a national story because he was a brilliant, brilliant political organizer. And it is Rustin, who then serves as the kind of organizational anchor along with Ella Baker, who is a friend and colleague of his- SM: 1:26:47 Yeah, one of the, I am very pleased that you talked a lot about Byard Rustin in your book. There is a long time that he was kind of a forgotten man, he was bad. Some people thought he was a bad man, because he was a communist. He was gay, I mean all this other stuff. And he is from Westchester, which is where I live. And, and so and we had a national tribute to him when I was working at Westchester University. But you, you did a great job of putting him in his role, not only with the march on Washington, but in other areas. Could you talk to us a little bit about why Byard Rustin is important when you talk about the (19)60s? KB: 1:28:47 -in New York City political circles, who then give the substance to the organizing work that the civil rights movement, King's brand, strand of the Civil Rights Movement does. King is a, not a great organizer, but he had really great organizers behind him, and Rustin as a theorist of the movement, and as an organizer of the movement really gives that southern movement much of its shape. Excellent. Yeah, he is, they named the high school after him in Westchester but the battle, the name that, was a battle. SM: 1:28:47 Right. KB: 1:29:23 I can imagine what do you think was the bigger part of the battle, his radicalism or the fact that he was gay. SM: 1:29:28 I think it was, that he was, some people, I think it was because he was gay, and also because he was a communist. And, and but finally I-I went to some of the meetings. I actually stood up once and said some things, but I just sat there. I was in amazement that, but they finally did it and, and, and now Brother Outsiders are being shown all over the country, you know, the film. KB: 1:29:54 Yeah. SM: 1:29:54 And Walter Nago, who I am close friend of, it was his partner and Walter goes, to film and shown. And so he is finally getting the recognition he deserved 40 years ago, so- KB: 1:30:06 Yep, exactly. SM: 1:30:08 Now, two last questions up. Was there one person in the (19)60s that you personally liked above everybody else? And is there one that you dislike? KB: 1:30:20 Oh, that I dislike? [laughs] I think I mean, I know this is a cliché answer. But, it is worth acknowledging, I will just acknowledge that I have just such enormous admiration for Martin Luther King. And I think, and I think it is because he was a flawed human being who, but who also upheld these kind of extraordinary principles. And so, you know, I know that is a cliché answer, but I think it is an honest one. Someone who I really, really dislike, hm, and there is a lot of candidates for sure. SM: 1:31:11 [laughs] KB: 1:31:14 Who would I put at the top of that list? Oh, that is a tough question. I do not know, I would have to think about that one. SM: 1:31:23 All right. Well, if had come up with it let me know. [laughter] KB: 1:31:26 You have got a deal. SM: 1:31:27 One thing, when we started the interview, I think, we did not, something cut off at the very beginning, which was when you were talking about, could you just redo again, your growing up years, I got your college experience- KB: 1:31:39 Oh, sure. SM: 1:31:40 -just your-your growing up years, and that, that early years, those early years? KB: 1:31:44 Sure, so as I mentioned before, I was born in Detroit, Michigan, in October of 1960. To be exact, I was born on the same day as the second Nixon Kennedy debate. And I grew up in Detroit, in an all-white neighborhood in Detroit that was kind of lower middle class, upper working-class neighborhood. I went to the, my neighborhood's parochial schools for grade school and high school. I did not mention that. But I will add that when I was in my teenage years, the neighborhood that I thought of so much as, as my home, underwent the dramatic racial change of white flight. And living through that I think, also had a really big, left a really big mark and my sense of the racial, the cost of American race, one part of the enormous cost of American racism. SM: 1:32:44 All right, and my very last question is this. And I have been doing this now for my last 15 interviews. KB: 1:32:49 [chuckles] SM: 1:32:50 And what is a message you would like to relate to people who listen to this lecture, who will be hearing it 50 years from now, for generations yet unborn, long after we were gone? What would you like to say to them? KB: 1:33:07 I think what makes the 1960s such an important and compelling period in American history, is that maybe a minority of, undoubtedly a minority of Americans believed enough in the promise of this nation, to demand that it be, that promise be fulfilled. And, they did not manage to do that. They did not manage to make it all the way to fulfilling that promise. And in some ways, the dynamics of the 1960s helped in the long run to move America even farther from that promise. But they believed enough in this nation, to take seriously the promise that it made in its founding documents, and to believe that they could through their own acts of courage, and sometimes enormous sacrifice, make the nation, move the nation closer to that promise. And that is an enormously important thing. SM: 1:34:23 Very good, Dr. Boyle. I want to thank Dr. KB: for being interviewed today about his book, "The Shattering: America in the 1960s." It is a winning book. And I think I mentioned to you, Dr., Dr. Boyle that Dr. Nieman who was the Vice President for Academic Affairs and Provost who is going back to the history department in a year, he is writing a book right now. So he will be away for a year but, he is pushing this book to be one of the books that is going to be used for the (19)60s course. KB: 1:34:59 Oh, cool, as he should. SM: 1:35:00 I am not sure if I have not seen Dr. Nieman since he announced he was leaving as Provost because he is working on his own book now but you know, I do not know if you know Dr. Daniel Nieman he is, race is a very big issue in his career. He is, you can look him up. He is a tremendous scholar. He loves Abraham Lincoln. And he, he was the dean of the school at the time, we started this Center for the Study of the (19)60s. So well I want to thank you again, I am going to turn this off and then give you final instructions. Thanks. 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Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Kevin Boyle https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/2f1d61fcdf18d23844db8b7742c40309.jpeg f47565f41ecc3ab999a7d4bfdc3020d9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/914d7944c5f3373f0f0dce1d0f2cbb9f.MP3 6a121421de28ede3d56b6443c0f5f98c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player with Transcription This template displays an audio player by Amplitude.js with a scrollable transcription which is loaded from the "Transcription" metadata field. This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview 24 June 2022 Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Nancy Bristow Biographical Text Dr. Nancy K. Bristow is a Professor of History at the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, Washington. Her research focuses on the area of 20th-century American history, with an emphasis on race and social change. Dr. Bristow is the author of several books including American Pandemic: The Lost Worlds of the 1918 Influenza Epidemic and Making Men Moral: Social Engineering during the Great War. She received her Bachelor's degree from Colorado College, and both her Master's degree and Ph.D. from the University of California, Berkeley. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:29:57 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data Digital file Date of Digitization 24 June 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Kent State, Jackson State, Blacks, Campus, Books, Students, History, Young lives, Shootings, Power, Martin Luther King, Mississippi, Boomer generation; 1960s. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Transcription Any written text transcribed from a sound, or alternative text from a visual medium McKiernan Interviews Interview with: Nancy Bristow Interviewed by: Stephen McKiernan Transcriber: Lynn Bijou Date of interview: 24 June 2022 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Start of Interview) SM: 00:01 Nancy Bristow. NB: 00:01 Okay, we are all set. Can you hear me? I can hear you perfectly. SM: 00:07 Okay, great. I always start out with my first question, finding out a little bit about the person I am interviewing. Could you tell me about your background, where you grew up, your early influences, your family, and early interests? NB: 00:21 Sure. SM: 00:21 And high school, college and-and how did you pick history as your career? NB: 00:27 But what, sure. So, I was born in Portland, Oregon in 1958. So, I grew up during the period of the Vietnam War and the civil rights struggles, but was just a child during it. I was not aware that I was interested in history as a young person. In fact, if you told my high school history teacher, I went to Beaverton High School in Portland, Oregon, if you asked him what I became, and then told him it was a history professor, I think it would, would cause of heart failure. He could not have imagined, if I had a course that I hated, it was history. But, that was because I had not gone to college yet. I went to Colorado College, which is a small liberal arts college in Colorado Springs, at a remarkable undergraduate education. And I had planned to major in German, but turned out not really to have the capacity for that. And so by chance, I took a history course because I thought it had a really neat name, it was England Age of Kings. And I thought, well, that sounds cool. And it changed my life, the Professor George Drake, who went on actually to be the president of Grinnell College, was my professor for that class, that I discovered that history was about people, and about what happens to us, and helps us understand who we are now. And that course, it literally within a couple of days, my life path was set I suppose, but I did not know it then. But I just, absolutely loved the class, had a kind of intellectual excitement that I had not really felt with any of the other classes, I had taken though I was a successful student all the way along, I thought I would major after I gave up on German, I thought I would do English, but always felt sort of ungrounded in that field. And history gave me that sort of grounding in the lives of actual people, people that had really lived the lives that, that you know, I was reading about, and ultimately would write about. In terms of early influences, my family has been tremendously important to who I became, I think, reaching all the way back to, to great grandparents that I knew who were working class people from Pittsburgh. And they raised up my father who was fortunate enough to get to go to college, as did my mother, they were both first generation to college students, that we did not have the language for that at the time. But both came from working class families, my mom's mother came from Ireland, was an immigrant. And both of them I think, were really serious about education. So for instance, when I went off to college, my parents gave me a credit card, which I could use for any kind of emergency, or to buy books, could just use it, for emergencies- SM: 03:01 [chuckles] Yes. NB: 03:01 -the kind of empathy that is necessary to be successful in the craft. And I think it can be learned, I was lucky that I think I learned that as a, a pretty young person. My grandma was a church going woman and who really, lived the Christian ethos, I think, in a way that that so many, perhaps do not, she really did embody that. I lived it seriously. I was not thinking of it through a Christian lens, but she very much was kind of, you know, just always cared about other people and really looked after other people. And I think my parents instilled in us the sense that, that was an important part of being a human being and second, that you are not anybody better than anybody else. And do not go fooling yourself because of what you do for a living, or where you live, or what language you speak does not make you better than someone else. And I think that was also really formative for me. -and books, and they just really have this deep investment in the value of education. And they paid for college for myself and both of my siblings, which is an extraordinary gift, not as expensive a gift as it would be in 2022. But nevertheless, a real contribution to the lives of their children, again I think it speaks to the value that they both placed on education, and the things that it would make possible for you. It had been a really meaningful experience for both of them, and I wanted us to have that same experience. But the other thing I think they gave me was a real sense of, and this goes to my grandparents as well, a sense of the importance of every, every human being. And again, I did not have language for it growing up. But, a real profound concern for injustice, and a preoccupation with-with the wellbeing of other people was really instilled in me through my grandparents and my parents. And I think it makes you a better historian because it helps you begin to have- SM: 04:03 I can see that as a scholar that what you have done in this book, your, you care about everybody. I, you know, it is just a tremendous book, you went to Berkeley too, correct? NB: 05:00 I did. I got my PhD at Berkeley, my masters and my PhD. I had not known what I would do when I finished college. And it was really a singular lack of imagination that took me to graduate school. I thought, well, I will just keep studying since I like doing this. And, then I was very lucky. Berkeley was good for me. I had some very, very valuable educational experiences there, obviously with people like Lawrence Levine and Paula Fast were my primary advisors. [crosstalk] But it was more important almost just to be in the Berkeley context, which was a place with a lot of activism- SM: 05:38 Yes. NB: 05:38 -and a community that was very, very diverse. And that was really good for me because I had grown up in Portland, Oregon, which is a, you know, relatively small town back in the day and still quite residentially segregated, as I was growing up. SM: 05:50 Did you take any courses from Harry Edwards or Todd Gatlin? NB: 05:54 No, I did not, I did not. They were not in my, then this is one of the things I regret about my education, is it was not as interdisciplinary as it would be if I did it again. So they were over in, you know, psychology or excuse me, sociology, so it was not even occurring to me to go over and take courses from them. And I was not studying the (19)60s yet. It is the other thing. SM: 06:14 Right. NB: 06:15 I think was intimidated by the subject matter, because I had lived it and it was still pretty fresh in my mind, not in a, in an adult kind of way. But I knew that it mattered a lot to me, and I was not ready to take that on. Like, I do not think I understood that at the time. But it is clear to me now because I love teaching the (19)60s. But I did not write about the (19)60s Initially, I wrote about the First World War era, because I think it had some of the same kinds of issues. SM: 06:40 Now you are also, in terms of, you are the chair of the African American History Department? NB: 06:46 No-no-no-no-no-no, I am, was the chair of the History Department. My term ends on like, next week, Thursday, for which I am very grateful. So I am just a professor of history. There is an African American studies program that I teach in, but I am not the chair of it. SM: 07:03 Okay, very good. Could you give a brief description of your books, the other books that you have written before this current one, just your scholarship up to this point? NB: 07:15 Sure. My first book was called "Making Men Moral: Social Engineering during the Great War," and my purpose in that book was really to explore how the military conceptualized the relationship between its fighting forces and the civilian population. And to get at that I studied, one particular agency that had its purpose, the creation of moral crusaders would be the kind of language I might use. That, they were thinking about the soldiers through a very particular lens, and what that crusader would look like had very particular sort of social and moral positioning. And so, the agency I studied, how does its job creating these soldiers who would be as pure in body and mind as you were in spirit, I mean, just this, really wanting to create an ideal kind of American so it was sort of an Americanizing program for all the American troops through recreation, social hygiene, education, and ultimately law enforcement, as needed. So, it was a really interesting study about the power of the state, and what it looks like when the state has the power to implement its moral vision. And, really a piece of sort of my interest in the progressive era. And then my second book, looked at the influenza pandemic of 1918. So, staying in the same time period, interested still in the role of the state in the lives of individuals, but looking at it in a particular, sort of social catastrophic moment. Turns out, I am really interested in the idea of, sort of culture and catastrophe, and how we as a people, as a community, as a nation engage with, and work our way through, and ultimately remember or forget these major moments in our history. So that one, I was really interested in the social experience of American people during this pandemic, and the ways in which social identity really differentiated the experiences. So, it mattered whether you were male or female, it also mattered profoundly as it did in our current pandemic, what your racial and class situation was. SM: 09:19 Yes. NB: 09:19 It also mattered whether you were a healthcare professional, if you were a doctor or a nurse, because those were such gendered positions at the time. And then also really interested in how public health navigated both popular interest in being saved and then ultimately, popular frustration with the ongoing difficulties of the pandemic. So both an interest in the social experience, and the sort of, role of social identity, but also interested in the sort of, state civilian relationships as well. So, those two are connected because of the time period because of my interest in, in issues around social reform, issues around the state, and the individual. And also really interested, increasingly across time in the meaning of race, and the meaning of class in people's lives. And the reality that even in these moments when we talk about being a singular nation, right, we are unified by the world, we are unified by the pandemic, the ways in which that is simply not true. SM: 10:22 This leads into the new book, which is, "Steeped in the Blood of Racism." What drew you to the Jackson State story? And I love your title too, because the subtitle "Black Power, Law and Order and the 1970s Shootings at Jackson State College." I just did an interview yesterday with Mr. Ruffner who took pictures at Kent State. NB: 10:47 Right. Right. SM: 10:47 And the fourth and he talked about, we talked about the whole concept of law and order that was happening at Kent State with Governor Rhodes and- NB: 10:55 Oh, that is right. SM: 10:56 -and all those people there they were, you know, some of the students were so called criminals and all this other stuff. NB: 11:02 Right. So, criminalizing of the young people is one of the things that the two stories have in common. SM: 11:07 Right. NB: 11:08 So I, I came to the Jackson State story, actually, by way of interest in, I was really interested in state's repression in the Black Power era. And my original plan was to write a book that looked at a series of events in the late (19)60s and early (19)70s: the murder of Black Panthers, the, assault on civilians during civil disorders, the treatment of Black college students. So, looking at different contexts within which the state is enacting violence against Black people, and using new language, the language as you suggested of law and order to justify it. For the wake of the civil rights legislation of the mid (19)60s, the sort of straight out you can just murder Black people does not work any longer. It does not mean that the murders will not continue to happen, but that the state will need new justifications for that kind of behavior. And Jackson State, it was a really classic case of it. I had planned to write this larger book and then an editor at-at Oxford asked if I wanted to, write on a single one, and create a volume that was more focused. And I was like, "Well, yeah," and I have started with Jackson State, so let us go with that one. I got onto Jackson State, though, to do justice to him, a student of mine and one of my courses, a young man named John Moore, wrote a paper on the shootings at Jackson State and it really intrigued me, because they had not known much about the shootings prior to his paper. And it really inspired me to want to know a lot more about what took place there. And the discovery that this was really racial violence, this was, you know, the state perpetuating violence against Black bodies, which it had done, you know, with a history reaching all the way back to slavery. And so, I was really interested in exploring how the shootings were justified because, of course, no one ever did, no one was ever prosecuted for the crimes. No one, ever you know, they, it-it is just a horrific injustice that went, you know, completely, a pursuit of justice was-was unsatisfied, I will-will say that, so interested both in how that could be possible, when this was clearly murder. And then secondly, really interested in why so few people my age, remember what happened to Jackson State, and everybody knows Kent State. And so, that really telling this as a story of racial violence and the ways in which white Americans do not remember racial violence so, that each police shooting can be treated in a sense as a one off, right. Trayvon Martin should not have had a hoodie on or he would have been fine. SM: 13:43 Right. NB: 13:43 Eric Garner should not have been selling illegal, so you know, go down the list of things. Tamir Rice should not have been playing with a plastic gun. Right? No, the fact is that each of these people were part of a long arc of history in which we talk about needing to pursue law and order, and we do it as a justification for, the control of, of Black citizens. SM: 14:04 In the state- NB: 14:05 I was really interested in that. SM: 14:06 -the state of Mississippi and that whole period, I just did not read off of another person, on the Freedom Summer, and what was happening in Mississippi at that particular time, and in (19)64. But, this whole business of Jackson, understanding the history of Jackson in conjunction with this school that had many different names over the years since its founding. NB: 14:17 Yeah. Yep. SM: 14:28 And I, just imagine what African American students were going through, through that whole period- NB: 14:35 Right. SM: 14:36 -living in that community. NB: 14:37 Right. And that is the thing that I think is really interesting about Jackson State, which is, right, it is a historically Black university at that time, a college within a state system run by a higher education board that is all white. SM: 14:51 Yes. NB: 14:52 And, that wants nothing more than continue to control these Black students. They have to have a good Black school. So, they put limited resources into this institution, it is always under resourced, even today I suspect it is still deeply under resourced. But so, they have this institution, but they are going to control these young people to the best of their ability. So, they have president after president who really keeps a lid on any kind of activism and even up into the 1960s. You know, students who do protest in the early 1960s who were Jackson State students are expelled, if they are caught, for instance as, as supporting the Tougaloo nine in the early 1960s, at a sit-in locally, those kids are thrown out of school, the Ladner sisters, for instance. And so, you have a campus that is sitting right on the edge of Lynch Street. And again, that is a name that may sound, may resonate differently to our ears, but it is actually named for senator John Lynch, who was a Black, a Black representative in the U.S. Congress that was a Black man out of Mississippi during Reconstruction. So, John R. Lynch Street is actually a name with some pride behind it. But right on Lynch Street, literally a block off campus, is the place where the major NAACP rallies are taking place when Jackson is up in arms, when African Americans are really protesting in Jackson, and, you know, the city is, is, you know, in the midst of a, of a, of a revolt by the Black community, its headquarters are, you know, a block off campus. SM: 16:28 Wow. NB: 16:29 So, you have kids who are trying to navigate that. So, the institution is seen as, sort of very repressive, and ultimately regressive, that Tougaloo gets all the praise for having been activists. But in fact, there were always students at Jackson State who were pushing the edges of, of the envelope, so to speak, some of them being expelled as a result. And starting in 1967, the school gets a new president, who really does begin to give students more voice. He reestablishes the student government, the student newspaper begins to have an actual voice to talk about, you know, issues that are social political issues. So, it is really an institution and a transition time in 1970, it is still primarily kids coming first generation to college, many of them coming off of farms, you know, the children of sharecroppers, so kids who cannot afford to get in trouble, kids whose whole families are counting on them, to get an education, and to help the family. So, it is a very, as you say, unimaginable the kind of tensions that these young people were living in the midst of, even as what they were trying to do is get an education. SM: 17:36 You did a great job on explaining all of this. And if, if, if a young African American student got involved in an activist activity there that he could be kicked out of school, or it could affect his remaining at the school because he wants to graduate, get a job, and for a long period of time the school is involved in preparing young people to be, I think teachers in Black schools. NB: 18:01 Yep, absolutely. SM: 18:02 And, and they, this was a job opportunity. And, so there was that. And also, it is interesting with, some of the people I have interviewed about Kent State, is, you know, Kent State was not known as an activist school for a long time. It was more of a conservative school. And I know they had a real big and strong SDS chapter there. And, they played a major role. But still, when- NB: 18:29 When, they had had, there were a lot of children of, of Labor Union activists. SM: 18:30 Yes. NB: 18:31 In fact, there is the wonderful book, I do not know if you have had a chance to interview Thomas Grace. But- SM: 18:39 Yeah, I did. NB: 18:40 -yeah, his book is just terrific on establishing that there was a history of activism at that school. It just was not well known that you would this- -these assumptions that were made. And I think there is some of the same story at Jackson State that, Robbie Luckett-Robert Luckett, who runs the Margaret Walker Center at Jackson State has done a really good job, I think, recapturing that history in the current exhibit that they have on campus right now, about the Lynch Street corridor and the ways in which Jackson State was very much always a part of what was going on, even if it was a great risk to those students who participated. SM: 18:48 Yes. Yeah. One of the most important things that was happening in America and certainly in the south, and all over America was in 1966. Could you describe the meaning of "Black power"? And when these two words became the slogan for African American students in the (19)60s. We all know the Stokely who had been a member of Snick for many, many years. He was there in Freedom Summer doing all his thing, but he had different views than some of the others in Snick. He and H. Rap Brown and others became more radicalized. Could you explain when this kind of happened and the effect that it had on college campuses? NB: 19:55 Sure. And it is hard to track. I would say that though the terminology comes popularized at that point in 1966. The ideology, A, had not had long been there. Many people think of, say, the Black Panther Party as being the heirs of Malcolm X. So, we have other voices- SM: 20:12 Right. NB: 20:12 -throughout the civil rights era that are calling for a different kind of, of approach to making social change. Civil rights activism based in nonviolent direct action really is an appeal to the conscience of those who have power. Right. It is asking white people to see that they are wrong, that it is immoral to do things like segregate and appealing on them, to change their minds and to become as, in a sense, better neighbors, better citizens. By the summer of 1964, when you have civil rights, you have the murder of civil rights activists during Freedom Summer, you have, you know, an extraordinary number of acts of violence against civil rights activists, generally speaking, and then in 1964, at the Democratic National Convention, you see mainstream, liberal Democrats really turn their back on the activists from Mississippi who come to the convention- SM: 21:03 It is amazing cause- NB: 21:03 -with the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party asking that the Democratic Party itself unseat the white Mississippians and see other delegates to the convention who have created a Democratic Party that includes Black people as well as white people. And when the white liberals do that, for some who had gone along with nonviolent direct action, it is kind of the final straw. The idea is you even the people who purported to be our friends, cannot be counted on when push comes to shove, when their political well-being is threatened in any kind of way. So, I think for a lot of young people who had thought of nonviolent direct action, not so much as a way of life, but as a tactic, that shift was underway by 1964, even though we do not talk the language of "Black power," really, until 1966. I think the other thing that is really essential here is that by 1966, you could see that even with the passage of civil rights legislation, a lot was not changing. If you live in Oakland, the passage of the Civil Rights Act of (19)64, does not do anything for you, neither does the Voting Rights Act. So even as we see political empowerment taking place in the south, by the late 1960s, for a lot of African Americans, the civil rights legislation did not actually have much meaning. So, there was a kind of raised and disappointed expectations that encourage people to think about the need for a different strategy to make change, that what is really essential in the United States is power. And so you have got to get some and the way you get that as you start to think about Black nationalism, you think about economic determinism, which is or excuse me, economic Black nationalism, which is to say, spend your dollars in stores owned by Black people, spend your dollars where it will come back in tax revenue to your own community. And political Black nationalism; do not vote for anybody who does not have your back, they may not be Black, but they have got to have your back, spend your vote wisely. And then sort of social or cultural, Black nationalism, that just speaks to the need to look to your own community for wellbeing and to think about creating change from within rather than looking to the white community for change from without- SM: 21:03 Yes. NB: 21:45 -and so by 1966, I think it is a combination of frustration. And the reality that things are not changing, and experiences with the white community that suggests the sort of limits of what is possible through nonviolent direct action in a country that is so steeped, so deeply immersed in, in a white supremacist history and system. SM: 23:21 It is, it is, it is something here also, it is kind of a deja vu story in America. After the Civil War and Reconstruction, you know, people were supposed to have the right to, you know, for a lot of freedoms, probably up to about 1877. NB: 23:47 Yep. SM: 23:47 And after that, then all these, did the extreme opposite. And, you know, everything that we knew about Mississippi in 1964 was, was it all had dots going back to that 1877 rights, right up to the Ku Klux Klan, and the- NB: 24:09 Yep. SM: 24:09 -citizen councils, and all these things, preventing African Americans from just about everything. They were never treated equal. The one thing that shocks me the most over and over again, it is in your book and in other books, is how they talk to people of color by using the N word. It just- NB: 24:26 Right. SM: 24:26 -it just upsets me terribly. NB: 24:28 Right. Well, I think it was not only that, but even the kinds of, sort of basic slights all the time, so, not calling you by your last name, not using Mr. And Mrs., forcing you to get off the sidewalk, or out of the way for a white person was very intentional. It was intended to degrade, right. And I think that is why the N word is so powerful is that, it was a representation of a whole system of slight and of degradation that was intended to send a message that you are less than I am. And-and, you know, just the ways that, that would then, create ways of living in the world for white, think about white young people growing up in that world, of course, they assume that they are better. And for young Black people how hard it is then to assert yourself and to understand your own capacities, right. There is ways in which, you know, it just was so cruel. It just it, yeah, I agree with you. It is just, it is unbelievable. It is, it is easy to be upset by things like lynching, of course we should be. But that is only one piece of this whole system that was designed to degrade people's lives. SM: 25:41 And, and what is happening today in America, I worry, again, is this, the third chapter of- NB: 25:46 It sure feels like it. SM: 25:48 -like two steps forward and three steps backward, two steps forward, three steps backward, especially in the area of voting. I mean, even John Kennedy, when he was president, you know, he wanted to get a bill passed. But one thing he did not include in that bill was voting. NB: 26:05 Right. SM: 26:05 And- NB: 26:06 No, that is right. SM: 26:07 -so when you look at the killings at Jackson State, and I am so glad you wrote this book, because, you know, Kent, I have been to 14 remembrance events at Kent State and they have done a fantastic job- NB: 26:19 Yeah. SM: 26:19 -in making sure that what happened at Jackson State is part of the Kent State story as well. NB: 26:24 They sure have, they sure have. SM: 26:26 And could you, describe the history of the school? You have done it a little bit already, about the, it, what, it is your, it is your material that you built up proving that what happened on the 18th of May was racist. Yeah, 14th, 14th of May. Oh the, yeah 14th, excuse me, yes 14th. NB: 26:46 No, I think it is really important because it is very, I mean, I think it is important to note that the young people who suffered at Kent State and at Jackson State feel a real sense of community with one another. And it is something, I think there is great gratitude, both directions for that. Kent State itself has done a great job, retaining the story of Jackson State alongside their own, and I applaud them for that. But one thing that has happened is, Kent State become the kind of iconic story for the period, which made it really easy for Jackson State to kind of just slip off the page, so to speak, that itself, I think is-is a result of white supremacy and our failure to recognize that this was a racially based murder. And, you can see that so clearly. So, Jackson State was a historically Black institution. By 1970, I think there is three or four white kids going to school there. There is the children of professors, I think. But, there is really just a couple of kids there. It is, it is really silly, historically Black and predominantly, or actually exclusively Black school at that point. And it has a history of over the course of the 1960s, having engagements with the police that end in, in police violence. They are always overreacting to the slightest, any kind of unrest on the campus will bring in Thompson's tank, which was an armored tank, purchased for Freedom Summer, will bring in, you know, large numbers of heavily armed police in a way that just was not happening nationwide, right. This is a period of great activism on college campuses. And in general, you do not see the immediate response being sent in, in, you know, a large armed force. At Jackson State that is the routine response to any kind of unrest. And there is unrest every summer, starting in 1964, of some sort. The other way you could really see this, that this is a result of racism, that this is white supremacy being enacted, is you could look at a number of things first, when they hear that there is a dump truck on fire on the campus, instead of saying okay, so what should we do? They instead, quickly hand out a bunch of riot gear, and shotguns, and run out to Jackson State. There is no talk about what the mission for the night is, they do not brief the troops. So, everybody goes in without a clear sense of what their job is when they get there, right. That is, so they are in complete panic mode. Because, why? Because these are young Black people. So they assume, as one guy says, "Well, once they started burning the, you know, burned that, we figured they burned down the town." So, they have already conceptualized these kids as criminals. Now, why is that racially infused, because in Mississippi, that is something that had long been done, A, but also as you start to look at some of the things they do: A, all the way through, they refer to the young people using the N word, they come in with armory, with armaments that are better suited for, for warfare than they are for crowd control. If you had any regard for these young people's lives, they would not have been armed in the way that they were. And then finally, that they opened fire on them. They open fire and shoot for 28 seconds because a bottle broke on the pavement. You do not, it is completely against protocol to do so. They would not have opened fire on a group of young white people. But, because there is no regard for these young Black people's lives, they open fire and continue to fire for 28 seconds. They shoot over 400 shells. I mean it is, it is shocking. And they are shooting from almost point-blank range. SM: 27:16 Owie. NB: 27:21 I mean and to look at, and to hear these young people talk about what happened. It is so clear. And then in the aftermath, they literally do not assist the wounded, or the dead. They yell at the young people using the N word, and tell them to go check on these kids, two of whom die. Several others of whom are injured, they do not assist the kids. They pick up their own shells instead. It is, it is not until the National Guard arrives- SM: 30:59 Yes. NB: 30:59 that the students are assisted in helping those who are injured, or, and tending to the two who had died, Phillip Lafayette Gibbs and James Earl Green. So, it is so infused with racism. And yet it is, it is undeniable when you look at the evidence up close. SM: 31:14 After it happened in your book, several people said the National Guard was supposed to take over for them, they were supposed to leave. Then, that probably would not have happened if the National Guard were there. But, it is the fact that the Jackson Police and the state troopers were there. NB: 31:30 That is right. And they are called in because a dump truck is lit on fire in the middle of the street. And the night before, there had been some unrest but, the police never enter the campus. So even though there was unrest on campus, nobody was injured. Nobody was hurt, clear lesson there. The next night when this dump truck is lit on fire, the police and the highway patrol rushed to campus, all in a fluster. And when the, they are rushed to campus to, to, quote, "Protect the fire department." Well, the fire department leaves once the dump truck fire is out. And what do the police and highway patrol marched into the middle of campus, there is no reason for them to enter the campus, no reason for them to march toward the middle of it. The mayor says, the National Guard chair says, number of people who were on site say there was nothing going on in the middle of campus. I did not know why they were marching there, and it was against their orders. They marched in the middle of campus. They turn their weapons on a group of young people in front of a women's dormitory. Kids who until they arrived had been hanging out. SM: 32:31 Right. NB: 32:32 As one guy said to me, "Yeah, we were all just hanging out. It was a nice Mississippi evening, to where all the lovers world, were, it was a women's dormitory." Women had an earlier curfew, it turns out. So, the men were all hanging out in the sort of, sway in front of the dormitory. When these you know, this heavily armed crew marches on them, and turns their weapons on them. So, of course they yell at them. But, when they are asked to clear the street and to move away, the students do, there is no question about it. The students are behind a chain linked fence when the police opened fire, and the police had no reason to be there. SM: 33:07 Where was the- NB: 33:08 In fact, you know, the National Guard is, is completely upset the commander that they have done this, he says literally, "They have done it all wrong." SM: 33:18 I-I know that the college president was around, he was keeping track of this. A plus over from Jackson State over Kent State, is the administration at Kent State was nowhere to be found. NB: 33:30 Right. SM: 33:31 And, talk about an inept administration, faculty members were kind of- NB: 33:37 Right. SM: 33:37 -doing their thing. But at least at Jackson State, the President was around, and was concerned, and but he was not at that scene. NB: 33:45 No, that is right. He was actually at his home at the time, because, because he knew that there was some unrest. And as soon as the shootings happened, a number of young Black men primarily approached his home, which is right near campus, and said, "You know, you have got to, you have got to come out here you have to see what they have done to us," and he immediately did. And he helped probably, to prevent a much larger loss of life because some students were wanting to march on downtown, and that would have been catastrophic. And, he helped the students. He did not, I will not say calm them, what he did is he asked another student who was there who was well known among the students, highly regarded, and was known to be able to recite Martin Luther King speeches by heart. And he asked him to recite, and that young man did, and it slowed things down enough for students to then talk about what they ought to do, and they realized what they should do was to stay on campus, but they refused to, to go back into the dorms. The president said, "Go back inside," and they said, "Why? Well, we were not, we were not safe in there. We are staying out here tonight." And so, they spent the night in front of the dorm. It was shaped like an H, and so they were in the sort of lower part inside the two legs of the H. The west wing on the left is where the shooting took place. And they spent the night there, but President John Peeples absolutely was, was crucial and remains really close with many of the students from that era. They all speak so glowingly- SM: 35:14 Right. NB: 35:14 -of him. When they finally had their graduation, where they got to walk across the stage last summer. He was absolutely in. He was there and was the commencement speaker for them. So, he is well known to have been very, very important. And then that young man, Eugene Young, they nicknamed him, his nickname was Jughead, he, too, was really crucial in helping the students sort of slow down enough to realize that it would be, suicidal to leave the campus grounds. SM: 35:45 You know, I knew Jean. He came here- NB: 35:48 Did you? You are so lucky. SM: 35:49 -I met, he came to Kent State several years to speak at some of the programs on the- 30th, the 1st or 2nd of May in some of the buildings there. And, I was sad when I heard he passed away. I know he had been on the previous year, he had been on Democracy Now, talking about it as he paid tribute to those who had died. But, he, he was so good as a speaker. NB: 35:54 That is right. And that is what everyone says. SM: 36:14 Yeah and, and he and, I remember he was staying at a hotel, and I was staying another hotel, and he did not have a ride. So, [chuckles] I took him back to his hotel. But, we were in another theater downtown because they were doing some programs in the, in the theater. And he was just, I mean, he was, it was like you go to grad school, and you meet your new grad students in your residence hall. You talked to him once and you were friends. NB: 36:42 Yeah. SM: 36:42 He was, he was that good, and that friendly. I remember when I came back to Kent State, I had heard that he passed and it touched the people at Kent State, so. NB: 36:52 No, everybody, everyone has spoken so highly of him. It is one of my, I will not say regrets. But I just, I wish I had started my project a few years earlier. So, I might have had the chance to meet him. And honestly, not only for the story that I know, he would tell, and I would love to have had the chance to learn from, but also just, he just sounds like an extraordinary human being. SM: 37:14 Oh, yeah. He is, he reminds me of a professor. I mean, he was,- NB: 37:18 Yeah, that is right. SM: 37:19 He was just, he was intellect, he is an intellectual. He is very calm, though. He is a gifted- NB: 37:25 Yep. SM: 37:25 -gifted speaker but calm. NB: 37:27 And you know, he was a part of the civil rights activism in Jackson as a young child. SM: 37:31 I did not know that. NB: 37:32 Yeah, so in the early (19)60s, he is a part of the of the activism in Jackson. And in fact, he comes up if you read Dan Moody's book "Becoming of Age in Mississippi," which is an account- SM: 37:41 Oh yeah. NB: 37:42 -of, sort of, grassroots activism, she talks about little Jean Young. SM: 37:46 Oh, I will check that out. NB: 37:47 Yeah. So he came by his activism early, and was really a part of, of those, you know, the student efforts of the early 1960s in Jackson. SM: 37:56 Now the Black power, I want to get back to the Black power situation again, around (19)66. That was coming to Jackson State as well. Some of the things that the students were demanding. And this is important to know, because I think it is in your book and another book I read. When people say how did these changes happen? It was because of the African American students. NB: 38:19 That is right. SM: 38:19 That made it happen. Not some, not Stokely Carmichael. Not- NB: 38:24 That is right. SM: 38:24 -it was them. And, and I saw this at Ohio State because that is where I went. I went to grad school at Ohio State. NB: 38:30 Right. SM: 38:30 And the Black studies, the arrival of Black studies- NB: 38:34 Yeah. SM: 38:35 -on campus and the legitimacy that it is an academic program was a big challenge- NB: 38:39 Yes. SM: 38:39 around there. And of course, the Black student unions were getting big, bigger, and the Black student papers, and student programs at Ohio State. This is the same time period; Ohio State had a lunchtime program from 12 to 1 in the Ohio Union. And it was for African American students, and on African American issues. I went every single one. And they only had 25 or 30 people, I was there as one of the few white people that was in there [chuckles]. But I will never forget when Jesse Jackson came, oh my god! NB: 39:09 Yes, there you go right! And, I have heard him speak once when I was in, 1978. Yeah, at his church, quite a. SM: 39:18 Yeah, well, yeah. Well, Jesse was there and of course, he had his afro and he was, you know, dressed like, he was young. [crosstalk] He was a young guy. And then I also remember Kathleen Cleaver coming to Ohio State, she spoke in Mercian auditorium, one Friday night, and I remember it was, and the place was packed and she had her own guard, you know, the Black Panthers guarded her. And, we were waiting and she finally came in. And, she spoke for a while and she said, "Well, I was met at the airport by the police," [laughs] of course, and they escorted her to get to Ohio State. And so, she started to speak and they had two guards up on the stage and they were just standing there, not moving, one fainted. NB: 40:06 Oh wow. SM: 40:07 And she is only into her speech for a couple minutes, and this, one guy faints and falls down, then somebody thought he had been shot. So- NB: 40:15 Oh yeah. SM: 40:16 I will never forget that. And, they ran up there to protect her and everything, but it was- NB: 40:21 Oh yeah. SM: 40:22 -but it was during this Black power and, and Black pride, and the afro hair dos, and everything. NB: 40:29 Black is beautiful was a really important concept, right? SM: 40:32 Yes. NB: 40:33 Even today, I know that my own Black students still suffer from not only colorism within the Black community, but you know, being taught that to be the way they are, to look the way they are, is not going to get you where you are needing to go. So, they talk about you need to dress professionally. You need to wear your hair professionally. And they are telling kids even in 2022, right, that to wear your hair naturally, either does not look good or is not professional. So, it is still here, If you can imagine the power of the messaging of Black is beautiful, right? Wait, to be me is a beautiful thing? Yeah, yeah, yeah. SM: 41:06 Yeah. And they were, and they were challenging at Ohio State now, whoever were there, they were challenging the legitimacy of the new Black studies program. The person they had hired, his last, his last name was Nelson, Dr. Nelson. He was an academic scholar from someplace afar that came in to lead this. The credentials were unbelievable for this man. And he was given the chance to start at Ohio State and he did a great job. NB: 41:34 Yeah. What an opportunity, right? And that is some of what is going on at Jackson State. Right. And in the, in the late 1960s, is the arrival of Dr. Peeples in 1967. He says, we are going to have a revolution in our books. And he talks about having, you know, a high-quality education, we are going to show them something, we are not going to do it by having you know violence, we are going to do it by having a great education, turning you lose on the world. And what he means by that is, that students will begin to have a voice, and that African American life, and culture, and history will be a part of what they have access to, and he found what becomes today, the Margaret Walker Center. He begins to invite Black writers to campus, He allows Stokely Carmichael to come, and others are like, "Why are you doing that?" he is like, "Well, you do not understand. You have to allow people to express themselves." SM: 41:37 Yeah. Yeah. NB: 42:23 You know, it was a brilliant move on his part, in terms of engaging a sense of trust with the students who are like, "Whoa, really, you are going to let Stokely Carmichael come," and Stokely Carmichael meets with him, and he is really surprised. And he says to Stokely Carmichael, "I am part of a new generation of college presidents, we are going to be a little bit different than what you remember," and so he is, he is also facilitating. So, even as students are, are claiming more power, they are fortunate enough to have an administrator that recognizes that, that is the right thing to allow. That, that is really important for their well-being. And so, it is this beautiful sort of, growth of, within the context still of a white board of higher education. So for that president, he is navigating something very difficult, which is trying to protect the students from this, you know, the white board of higher education, but also allowing them, and I should not even say allowing, but getting out of their way so they can do the things that they want to do, which is to express themselves to study, you know, what is going on with the war to ask, and raise questions about voting rights to, you know, explore the inequities that they are, they are experiencing its students at a college in a system in which the other schools are better resourced. I mean, they are so aware that what they have at Jackson State is not the same as what is at the University of Mississippi. SM: 43:40 Yes. NB: 43:40 And they are unhappy about that. And he is making space for them to know that at least. So it is, it is a, I do not want to say magical time. But I think it is a time of such extraordinary expansion of possibility. And I think that is important in understanding why the police might assault the campus, right. And that is the campus they attack. It is not a campus in which things are staying the same. It is a campus that is changing. SM: 44:06 Right. You bring up another, other important thing that, it was not the first time has students died on college campuses. If you have, you know, we think about Kent State and the four that died and the two that died at the Jackson State but, do not forget the those who died in Orangeburg in 1968. NB: 44:25 That is right. SM: 44:26 Jack Nelson wrote a great book on this. NB: 44:28 Yep. Yeah. SM: 44:29 If you have not read the book. NB: 44:30 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. SM: 44:31 But I you know, and I know that one, two died at Berkeley too, I think in, early on during shootings or something like that. So it has happened before, but the publicity for Orangeburg was just like the publicity at Jackson State, which was nothing. NB: 44:50 Right. Well, that is one of the things I find really interesting is absolutely, there was no, no publicity for Orangeburg. Not only that, but the only person who does prison time for it right, is Cleveland Sellers who is actually a Black activist. SM: 45:04 Yes, I, yes. NB: 45:05 Right. There is this terrible assault on young African Americans, and the only person who faces prosecution is someone who is not responsible for it. But, the other thing I was going to say about Jackson State that is really interesting is that it actually does get publicity at the time. It actually is on the front page, and not in the same way that Kent State was, but it is on the front page of The New York Times, it is in, it is on NBC News, ABC News, CBS News, it is in the one-year anniversary, Playboy runs a multi-page story about the funeral for James Green. So, it is not that people did not know about it in 1970, many people did. And that is why the forgetting of it for me is all the more important to trace. Because it was known and then unknown, how do we do that? And, we do it again, and again, and again, as a white community, it turns out. SM: 45:54 When the tragedy or the killings, Alan Canfora, used to say- NB: 45:58 Oh yeah. SM: 45:59 -let us start making sure we say the killings at Kent State not the tragedy, and it is the killings at Kent State and Jackson State. NB: 46:06 Yeah, yeah. SM: 46:06 And, but the shootings at Kent State or when it, it happened it, it affected America like I have never seen before. NB: 46:18 Absolutely. SM: 46:19 I will look at the college campuses reacting to it all over the country. You know, after Nixon gave the speech going into Cambodia, which we have been in for a long time already. NB: 46:28 Right-right. SM: 46:29 And the fact is that I am, I am just one example of probably millions of college students at the time who said, you know, it affected their lives forever. Now- NB: 46:41 Oh, yeah, absolutely. SM: 46:42 -but then 11 days later, the, to it, no one talks about the, it should affect their lives as well. And you get to thinking, well, who is creating a racial issue here? NB: 46:56 Right. SM: 46:57 Is, you know, we are not talking about Jackson, we are not talking about the state of Mississippi. We are talking about what is happening in the media. What is happening in the- NB: 47:05 Yeah no, that is right. SM: 47:06 -yeah, I am, I am still trying to, boggled, my mind is boggled on this issue. NB: 47:12 Right. But I think it is a really, I mean, I think you are going right to the heart of, of what is so important, which is, how do we manage to make some things remain part of our national narrative? And, other things do not. So, if you look at a high school history book, I bet they will include Kent State today and I bet they will not include Jackson State. The very best college textbooks are beginning to include Jackson State. But again, how is it that we, we, you know, how is it that we move from knowing it to not knowing it, and it takes a great deal of effort, it seems- -to me, and it is, it is not somebody, it is not conspiratorial, it is not somebody saying, "Oh, let us remove this from the story." But rather, it is a much more insidious series of small laps by newspaper editors, I looked, I tracked the Chronicle of Higher Education. It was fascinating to watch how it went from having several pages on what happened to Jackson State at one point. I cannot remember if it is the fifth-year anniversary, but a few years out, they have a big come, you know, two-page story big spread on Kent State. And then they have a little you know, what do you have those little sidebars called "Others Who Died," and that is where they put Jackson State. SM: 47:43 Right. Oh wow. NB: 48:20 And that is that effort of like, again, they are not trying to be cruel, but they are imposing sort of a white supremacist historical lens, here is the one that matters, here is the ones that do not matter. Right? SM: 48:31 Yep. NB: 48:31 And it happens, and that is how we make it happen. It makes us, it just makes me very conscious of the ways in which white supremacy is so systemic. I mean, there is a reason we use that kind of language, it is because, it is in the air we breathe, we commit it constantly, without even realizing we are doing it. [crosstalk] The needing to be so conscious of that is, is one of the reasons I think to know history is so important. SM: 48:53 When it first happened, I was reading the press about Kent State. And, it was the talk about "Well, why did not, why did not happen at Berkeley, or Columbia, or a University of Wisconsin, or Harvard Square," that were, you know, even Ohio State, and Ohio University, by the way, was the most liberal of all the campuses at that time and had some of the worst protests. NB: 49:21 Right, oh yeah. SM: 49:22 And so, but nobody died there. But they died at Kent State, which the press kind of made it look like they were a conservative campus that has not- -really been that active. And then the same thing is true you brought up in your book with Jackson Spade, Jackson State trying to compare with Tougaloo. NB: 49:31 Right. Right. SM: 49:40 And you know, that had a history of activism and Jackson State had not so- NB: 49:45 Yeah. SM: 49:46 -it is a, yeah, and your book is going to help this, definitely going to help this. NB: 49:53 Certainly the purpose of it, and I think it is the reason people were willing to speak with me, because here I am a white scholar, they have never heard of contacting them out of the blue, asking them to talk about a horrific event in their life that has tremendous meaning to them. And yet, you know, you know, dozens of people were willing to tell me their stories. And I think it is because they want the story to be known, and they are frustrated by the way in which it has been forgotten. It irks people deeply, that the story of what took place on that campus is not broadly known. And so, if my book can do anything toward that, it is only because the people to whom it happened, want that to happen, and were willing to help me, with the work I was trying to do. It was a stunningly supportive and kind response that I received from every single person I interviewed that had some connection to the school at that time. SM: 50:47 What is become, the Jackson State of today, I just want to know, I know they do have remembrance events every year. NB: 50:54 Yep. Yep, absolutely. SM: 50:55 And that is very good. And I know sometimes they have small numbers. Kent State has not had a high, a lot of, heavy numbers in recent years as well. But, it is still a steady group that comes. Is it important that it happens? How is Jackson State right now in terms of, you know, the school is, is it, you know, the courses is, is there activism on campus, is? NB: 51:22 You know, I do not I, it is a very, very different place than it used to be. At the time when it was Jackson State College, it was a single campus, and a relatively small campus. Today, it is a sprawling University, with pieces all spread all over Jackson, the city, featuring different things. So, you know, schools of media or that kind of thing spread out, too, it is a very different place, it is much, much larger. The home campus, which was the original Jackson State College, I believe, is still desperately under resourced. They, the library, for instance, I know is understaffed, because I have spent a lot of time in that library. I do not actually know the personality of the school. I know that there are still a number of remarkable people working there. I have met some of the historians there, and they are just first rates and people who really care about this story, and have made an effort to keep it alive. So, they have been very actively involved in the memory work. As I mentioned before, Professor Robert Luckett, who runs the Margaret Walker Center has been fundamental to the efforts to keeping the story alive. But, I do not actually know the personality of the students per se. I did interview a couple of young people just out of curiosity, their familiarity with the story itself. And it was interesting, my sense is that many students who go to school there really do not know much about what took place. There are those that do, and who are part of the remembrance efforts. But I think, in general, most of the students are not aware, which is odd, because in fact, like the major, beautiful sort of walkway in the midst of campus is the Gibbs Green Plaza, named for the two young men who were killed. But, and my sense is that the campus is-is like Kent State, I think it is very hard to keep the memory alive, even though I think both institutions have worked hard at it. The other thing I would say about Jackson State is, for a time, the campus was, the administration was interested in remembering the killings. Then, there was a period during which I think they were tired of being known only for the killings. And, I think the administrator sort of pushed back a little against the remembrances. And, that was certainly the case when I was first starting my project. I was not, how can I put this, upper administration might not have been that excited about this being a story that people were talking about. There is somebody I supposed to interview, who was a staff member who was not actually allowed to talk to me, which was very odd. I think that is over. And, I think they are back to understanding just how important this is. And they had a, a wonderful series of events planned for the 50th anniversary, which were tragically undercut because of COVID. But last year, on the 51st anniversary, they had a beautiful graduation ceremony right on the plaza right at the site of the shootings. And it was, you know, supported by the University, and was really just a remarkable event. So, I think the campus today is a place where that story is, if not broadly known, it is nevertheless, one that is considered really important to the institution, and there are people working hard to make sure its memory is as present as possible. SM: 54:47 You know that, that reaction or maybe lessening the remembrance events or something like that. It could be the generations are shifting here now, and that the boomers are now the older, the elders. NB: 55:00 Oh yeah, oh yeah. SM: 55:01 And millennials are now taken over in terms of leadership positions. Millennials themselves cannot stand the word diet and, that they say that is a boomer generation word. NB: 55:17 [laughs] SM: 55:17 So now the CEO of Coke is, I think, is going to be getting rid of the word diet on all their drinks, eventually, it is going to be zero sugar. Because, millennials let it be known to Coke and Pepsi that the diet thing should stop. That is from another era. [laughs] NB: 55:35 You know what, oh that is very funny. I am sitting here with a Diet Coke in my hand. SM: 55:39 [laughs] Well, I drink it all the time, so. NB: 55:41 I literally have one in my hand as we are speaking, so. [chuckles] SM: 55:44 Did-did you ever see the other book that was written on Jackson State by Mr. Stoppard? NB: 55:49 Yes, I did. Yes, I did. SM: 55:52 Yeah, he wrote that. I interviewed him- NB: 55:55 Oh, good. SM: 55:55 -maybe six, eight months ago on that book. And I think that, then that was a dissertation or something like that, he was writing a paper and then ended up becoming a book. NB: 56:06 Yeah, yep. And he did a lot of really important research that was very helpful, helpful for me, because he had collected some resources, and that alongside with resources collected by Jackson State itself, meant that there is an amazing Gibbs Green collection that is held both in the archives at the university, but also in the Mississippi Department of Archives and History, they have a microfilm copy of it. So I was able to access some things, that would have been much harder for me to find, without the work that he had done. So I am very grateful to him for the, the work that he had done on the story. I think the, the one place that I would, would push back is that he talks about, he uses the language of riot. And I think that is really a misrepresentation. SM: 56:50 Right. NB: 56:51 In the spring of 1970, the kinds of things that were going on at Jackson State can hardly be called rioting- SM: 56:56 Yeah. NB: 56:57 -in a time when there was such extraordinary unrest nationwide. So that is really, if there was one place I really wanted to push back on. It was, it was to, make the case that this was a murderer, and be racially charged, and racially motivated. SM: 57:12 I-I was amazed that he had the courage to go to Jackson, and to be walking around, and be in that environment for a while because of, when he wrote the book, it was pretty close proximity to what had happened I guess. NB: 57:25 Yeah, no, that is right. SM: 57:26 So, you know, I asked him, if he was afraid he was not afraid, just wanted to get a story, so. NB: 57:32 Yeah-yeah, no, exactly. SM: 57:35 Yeah, I do not embrace it when you are talking about boomers, you are talking about African Americans as well. And what, as a scholar, what has been your thought on the boomer generation as a whole, it was 74 million, it was the largest generation in history. And now the, the millennials are the largest generation, they are about 78 million. So your thoughts on, you know, only about 7 percent of the boomers are really involved in any sort of activist activity. And, of course, 93, we are not, percent we are not in that large generation, so. And oftentimes, the media portrays the (19)60s is, it is all about that 7 percent and not about the 93 that were just going about their daily activities and trying to make a living. Your just, just your thoughts on the impact of that generation. NB: 57:58 Wow. Well I think, and this is, it is such a large topic, but I would say that, to suggest that it is only 7 percent, I would not want to demean, nevertheless, the impact that that generation had, I think they were able to, in fact, awaken the nation to some really serious questions, and issues that changed all of our lives. Now, the fact that today Roe has been reversed, makes me feel like the changes we thought were permanent may not be. But when you think about the Civil Rights Act, and the Voting Rights Act, I mean, these are, and Roe for that matter. And you think about where we have come in terms of LGBTQ rights, you think about all of the transitions that have taken place, the ways in which the meaning of who is really a citizen, and what that means has expanded. It is extraordinary, what that time period made possible. And you really do have to credit especially the young people who, who, you know, did the work of calling and enacting change. It was not going to happen without the activism that, that 7 percent did. And so, I think the I think the boomer generation did extraordinary things. The other thing that is interesting to me is, is when we think about how are we defining who an activist is because my own parents were very traditional in the sense that my mother was a homemaker. My father was, you know, out working for a living, we were very traditional family in some ways, but we were also well aware of the war in Vietnam. And the day that Kent State happened, you know, my mom served dinner in what would be sort of our more formal setting, which we did not usually eat out, except if we had guests and because it was this big, terrible moment in our nation's history. So, we were not an activist family. But we were certainly awakened by and cognizant, awakened by that generation, and cognizant of the issues because of the young people of that generation. So, I think the impact is really quite extraordinary. And I know there has been enormous pushback. But I will use the language I guess, just as conservatives generally, to discredit that generation, in ways that I think are unfair. Surely there were, oh, what was the word I even want? There were people who went too far, there were things that were foolish, find me a generation of young people where that is not the case. [chuckles] And you show me a miracle. SM: 59:39 Yes. NB: 1:00:53 Right-right. I think for, for whatever failings that generation had then, and has had subsequently, its accomplishments, I think, are not to be, should not be misunderstood. I think they are enormous. And I think we continue to live with those. The fact that I am a college professor, as a woman, is because of that generation, right. Civil Rights Act made it possible for me to have the job I have to get into graduate school and to get a position that simply would not have been possible without it. How long and how permanent those changes will be, I think, is much, much more up for grabs than I ever could have imagined. SM: 1:01:32 Yeah. I-I did not know that that vote took place today. I did not know, so. NB: 1:01:43 Oh, sorry. I am pretty sure that is right. I have, yes. I believe it was overturned this morning. SM: 1:01:47 Oh, my God. NB: 1:01:48 I think the decision came down. SM: 1:01:51 Wow. That is going to be, woah. One of the things I want to talk about here- NB: 1:01:57 Yep. It overturned Roe v. Wade today. SM: 1:02:01 Wow. NB: 1:02:01 And apparently, the part by Thomas, has written something that says, you know, and this is only the first effort, you know, now we have really got to get to work overturning the, I do not know what he said. So, I will not repeat it. SM: 1:02:13 Wow. NB: 1:02:13 But I need to read it because it sounds like there is an intention. It is- SM: 1:02:17 Right. NB: 1:02:17 -sort of terrifying, if you have the values that you and I seem to have. SM: 1:02:20 Yeah, and I am, I think the if, the voting issue is another thing that is- NB: 1:02:26 Yeah, me too. Oh. SM: 1:02:26 -scaring the heck out of me. I work on the elections and I cannot believe that we are talking about this. NB: 1:02:32 No, me either. SM: 1:02:32 2020, 2022. I want to talk about the, when Black power came about and of course, Dr. King and non-violence. When you think of non-violence, you think of the, think of Dr. King, you think of Byard Rustin. And, you know, most of the- NB: 1:02:47 Reverend Lawson. SM: 1:02:49 -Roy Wilkins, James Farmer, John Lewis, Julian Bond, Shirley Chisholm, that whole group- NB: 1:02:55 Right. SM: 1:02:55 -Roy Wilkins. When Black Power came, I can remember a picture of Stokely Carmichael standing next to Dr. King. NB: 1:03:06 Yep. SM: 1:03:06 And he is talking and Dr. King is kind of motionless, with his hands, I think, on his chin or something like that. And it, it almost made it look like he was lecturing to Dr. King, [chuckles] and I, you know, when you think of the changes that happen, nonviolent, nonviolent protests was crucial, in the changes we did in America. And then also, we know what happened with Black power, it also helped change in a different way. NB: 1:03:38 Yep. Yep. SM: 1:03:39 But then we get then we also have the Muhammad Ali's, of the world taking stands against the Vietnam War. NB: 1:03:47 Yep. SM: 1:03:47 And Dr. King in 1967, did something that no one thought he would ever do, and that is a– yes, speech at Riverside Church. And, of course, was Rabbi Heschel right next to him who had influenced him to do that speech. NB: 1:03:55 Speech at Riverside Church. SM: 1:04:04 So your thoughts on this whole business about, you know, Black power and nonviolent protest be the, you know, not a battle, but you know, a petition. NB: 1:04:04 Right. Well, I think that is the key, well I think that is the key is that, I think it has really been unfortunate the ways in which at the time, certainly the media, publicized this as if it was an internal struggle, and certainly there was that going on. But, you know, Dr. King remains close friends with a lot of those young people who are advocates for Black power, right, the fact that they have different approaches to it does not mean that their end goal was not the same. And this is a point my students will always want to make. They will say, "Well, but wait a minute, what was Black Power trying to get and how is that different from what Dr. King was trying to get?" The point as well, different routes do a lot of the same things. And so for me, I continue to think about, the reason this is important to me is I think it is really relevant in the context of trying to make change in 2022, I would argue there is always room for lots of approaches to creating change, because you will change some things with that appeal to conscience, you will change some people with that appeal to conscience, non-violence, for me will always be the approach that I would have to adopt. There is nothing in Black Power that says it is not also nonviolent, by the way. SM: 1:04:18 Right. NB: 1:04:23 The thing that was different in Black Power is the articulation, both of a determination to claim power, but also a determination to create one's own lives and to be self-determining, and also to defend oneself. And that is, I think the part that was, was most troubling for someone like Dr. King. The reality is that Dr. King's people had carried guns in their, you know, in their, the trunks of their cars and, and many of the people involved in nonviolent direct action, were willing to be armed as needed. And so, in the context of that moment, historically, even the issue of self-defense strikes me as one that did not divide the camps as, as vividly as the press is portrayed. And I think many historians have worked hard to show the ways in which there was actually great continuity between those, the parts of the movement, not only in terms of people, but that many of the ideas that we associate with Black power have roots reaching back all the way through the Civil Rights period. Are they two different approaches? Absolutely. Are they necessarily in competition or in conflict? I am not as condensed. SM: 1:06:28 Yeah, I know that, Snick, Stokely was part of Snick. And he, Black power to kind of took over Snick as well. NB: 1:06:36 Yep. SM: 1:06:36 And some people that had been there a long-time kind of left Snick, John Lewis- John Lewis went back and they became a congressman. [chuckles] NB: 1:06:40 And some were eventually thrown out, [crosstalk] kicked out the white members in (19)66, so. Right, right. SM: 1:06:50 I do not know, if, he really was not into that, so. NB: 1:06:53 No, that is exactly right. No, but it was a very painful, very painful turn of events for those who are really dedicated to nonviolent direct action, as a way of life which clearly John Lewis was. And as Dr. King was, so that, yeah, there was there was so much tension and so much anger, and some of it right played out and sort of lashing out against one another, which you know, is, as I look at, as a historian, I am seeing, oh, divide and conquer, how effective and I can see it happening sometimes with young people today where, you know, those old notions of are you radical enough? Are you Black enough? Are you, you know, are you fighting the fight hard enough? You are not doing it my way. That is often, you know, you start thinking about agent provocateurs from the F.B.I. back in the day, right, some of that friction was surely promoted by right the F.B.I., and its COINTELPRO, and by others who were like happy to see conflict within the movement. SM: 1:07:50 Right. NB: 1:07:51 So, I am always cautious about seeing these things as a fight from within without also wanting to look for what, what are the external pressures creating that? SM: 1:07:58 I think Black power also had somewhat of an influence on African American students in their protest against the Vietnam War. Because at Kent State University in 1970, you did not see any of Black faces, you might. There was an effort, James Michener wrote the first book on Kent State, it got full of mistakes, full of mistakes, and everything else. NB: 1:08:09 Yes-yes. SM: 1:08:11 But, what he does talk about in there is there was an effort made to make sure that no African American student was on the, out there with a white stripe- NB: 1:08:23 That is right. SM: 1:08:24 -on that protest. And that, you know, because our role is to be fighting for civil rights issues, not about the Vietnam War. And- NB: 1:08:37 It is also because they knew they get, you know, they knew that they were, would get, you know, they would be the first ones to get hurt. SM: 1:08:43 Right. NB: 1:08:44 And they knew it. SM: 1:08:46 Yeah, and that that is really interesting, because nobody talks about it. NB: 1:08:52 Right. SM: 1:08:52 And if you look at the pictures, I do not see any African American students. NB: 1:08:56 That is why I think Tom Grace's book is really useful. SM: 1:08:59 Right. NB: 1:08:59 I think he really fills in the relationship between the anti-war activists and the Black union students who are also very active on campus, and were engaged in anti-war activism but that they were really aware of what were the danger moments, and when they saw white students acting out, they were not going to get in the way because they knew that they would be the, the targets. SM: 1:09:17 I want to read something that you wrote in, on page 59 of your book. NB: 1:09:22 Let us rip that bad boy open and see what I said. SM: 1:09:25 And it is, it is the beginning of the second paragraph there is, I just I grew up down here. I just, I said I have to have this in the interview. "This was certainly true in Mississippi, where the growing influence of Black power prompted a hostile and militarized response by the authorities. Across the state at the historically white institutions that had begun integrating at the HBCUs, African American students are organized first on their own campuses, and then between campuses across the state. Like African American students around the country, they focus on the persistent white internalism of those who control their educations, the absence of student voices and campus governments. I know that, I experienced that, the need for an intrusion of African American curriculum, faculty and administrators into their educations and the career, and the under resourcing that lead to a second-rate educators and education." I thought that was a very well written, I had to, I had to quote it, and it is get into the, the law and order thing. So I just, I do not know if you have any more to say on that, or? NB: 1:10:37 No, I just it goes back to a point that you made earlier, which is, as we think about the changes that were taking place, on college campuses, in particular, when thinking about Black college campuses, the ways in which students were in the lead, right, they were the ones who understood what they wanted and needed. And that is how we end up with a wonderful African American studies programs that we have today, with some of the, the still too limited Black leadership on our institutions. That, they understood what they needed, and what they wanted. And they were the ones really pushing for the change that, you know, so many of us, you know, came to be the beneficiaries of I would say, in my own case. And, and also, I would note that that paragraph is based on work that was done by other scholars who have done the work of researching, and helping us understand the kinds of things that were taking place in that, in that era, beyond the Jackson State campus. SM: 1:11:32 Right. NB: 1:11:34 I think especially of, of Professor Williamson, who's up at the University of Washington here, right in Washington state who has just done wonderful, wonderful work on the history of Black education in Mississippi and more broadly, Joanne Williamson, she wrote, "Black Power on Campus," on the University of Illinois, was one of her early books, and then she wrote, "Radicalizing the Ebony Tire, Ebony Tower," which was really, really influential for me. SM: 1:12:01 You, you talked about the trials afterwards as well, and, and nobody was really charged with a crime. NB: 1:12:10 No. SM: 1:12:11 Yeah. NB: 1:12:13 No, they were not. The two. It is really horrifying. The two grand juries are influenced by their, the first one is led by a federal grand jury by a horrific man who was well known as a racist, long beforehand, he had overseen the trials for Freedom Summer, for instance. And so, it was the murder of Cheney Schwerner and Goodwin, Goodman over Freedom Summer, and he, his, his sort of charges to the jury are just laced with the sort of law and order, racially inscribed law and order rhetoric that we associate with that time period, and that is so costly, and the same sort of viewpoint is done by the hounds, Hinds County grand jury as well. So, the only person who is ultimately charged with, first charged with a crime is a Black man, not unlike what happened in Orangeburg, and eventually, the charges against him will be dropped for lack of evidence, and he will plead out on another on another charge. So, no the legal system is a complete failure for them. When they tried to sue, they are unsuccessful in the first suit. But, they had known all along that they would likely be unsuccessful at the local level. But when it goes to appeal, they are successful. But, it turns out that all the officers are covered by sovereign immunity. So, they try to take the case to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court is unwilling to hear it. SM: 1:13:45 The, Kent State is, has been paying tribute for years for the four who died and the nine who were wounded. And I know Jackson State has been paying tribute to the two who died. But, what about the ones that are wounded? And, do they keep, is there a list so that people do not forget the students who were wounded? NB: 1:14:07 I think that is a really interesting question. I think the answer is kind of no. I think some of those who were wounded have been very outspoken and active, including one man whose-whose written a couple of personal accounts of what took place on those days, but the vast majority of them have, have been relatively quiet. Vernon Steve Weakley is the man, I should say his name aloud who has written a couple of books about his experiences with the shootings, and what it meant in his life, and he has been very active, and very public about it. But there are others who are, who are quiet about it, who have chosen not to, to be public figures about what took place in their lives. Some of whom were really anxious to be interviewed, some of whom were, I did not know how to find, but so it is, I can say that many of those who were at Jackson State in 1970, have gone on to really remarkable public careers. I tried to talk about that, in my book, the ways in which many people were inspired to try to make change, because they could not, you know, could not stand what had happened to them- and to, to the kids around them. But I also know that there are people whose lives were really influenced, you know, in negative ways by what took place, and who, you know, really feel that, that what was possible for them and, the capacities they had, went somewhat, unmet because of the, the derailing that, that shooting had-had in their life. SM: 1:15:14 Right. You know at Kent State, I think two of the nine, just want, want to have their privacy, so. NB: 1:15:40 Yeah, yep. SM: 1:15:41 But, seven of them have been willing to come back to events and speak, and. NB: 1:15:44 It has been interesting people who, who had not been to events who were there, not necessarily people were injured, but just even people who have been at the dorm that night. I talked to one man who had not been back in, I was there for the 45th. And he had not been back for any of the remembrances until that one. SM: 1:16:03 Wow. NB: 1:16:03 Turned out, he was a really close friend of Philip Gibbs. And he ended up letting me interview him, he was not sure about it. And I said, you know, just think about it. There is no pressure but, and we ended up having a really, really powerful conversation, and- SM: 1:16:18 Is there anything for those two that had been done in their name, besides having a plaque or a- NB: 1:16:26 We had a whole, there is a, the whole plaza walkway through the middle of campus, so they closed off Lynch Street. And it is a plaza, kind of walkway through the middle of campus, and it's named for both of them. SM: 1:16:35 Very good. Very good. NB: 1:16:37 It is really good. And that was, that was a plan that people had, I think in mind, perhaps, from the get go, because the students had wanted Lynch street closed for a long time. SM: 1:16:45 And when you kill a person, or a young person you are, you are destroying a legacy of that person. NB: 1:16:50 Yep, no that is right. SM: 1:16:52 Every young person deserves a legacy. NB: 1:16:54 Yeah, that is right. SM: 1:16:55 That is why it is so sad. I have a simple question here. Did, did Black lives matter at Jackson State in 1970 and in the America of 2020? And again, the simple question, Do Black lives matter at Jackson State, In Jackson, Mississippi, and in America? NB: 1:17:16 What, in today? SM: 1:17:17 Today. NB: 1:17:19 Whew. I cannot speak to Jackson, or to the campus, I think with the insider knowledge that the question deserves. I think that the state of race relations in the United States right now is, is, is, is devastatingly unchanged. For all of I think, very sincere concern expressed in the spring of 2020. I have not seen measurable change. I am seeing instead the taking away of Black votes, which is for me incredibly regressive, and will be devastating to the well-being of the country. I see ongoing police shootings of young Black people even in my own community. I see outspoken racism, being, you know, spoken by people in leadership positions. I see people being elected to office who have continued to support what I would argue with, you know, a horrifically racist president who was voted out in 2020. So, I think we are, I, do Black lives matter, they matter enormously. Are they treated with, that as if they matter? No, no. SM: 1:18:39 It is another issue that I, you kind of reflect upon or, you know, these great stories, your books, revealing the truth about what happened at Jackson State. It is how all this hard work that was done for so many decades, is now being challenged, to, for setbacks and, and of course, everything's red state, blue state, you know, hawk and dove, and all these other things. So, you know, they always put you in a category so, if you even question, or bring it up, you are one of those. So it, it you know, I, keep bashing some of the people that gave their lives. We did a program once at Westchester University, about the unsung heroes of the Civil Rights Movement, the ones that Dr. King used to always talk about, the people will never hear from, but were involved again, never knew. NB: 1:18:39 Yep. SM: 1:18:40 And-and they are probably turning over their graves knowing what is going on, if they knew what was going on today. And that is why as you mentioned, I mean, I think the voting rights issue is such a substantial one, because its implications are so deep, and the vote was so hard fought, I mean to gain, and that it could be being taken away so insidiously. And with such, and yet with such openness is just, I just did not expect it. And I should have that is, that is my you know, that is my whiteness speaking that I can be so naive sometimes. Well at least we know there are two artists who sang songs that reflected on what was happening in Mississippi in the, in the (19)60s and early (19)70s. NB: 1:20:22 Absolutely. SM: 1:20:23 And that is Nina Simone. NB: 1:20:26 Yep. SM: 1:20:27 "Mississippi Goddamn." NB: 1:20:29 One of my favorites. SM: 1:20:30 And Sam Cooke. NB: 1:20:32 Yep. SM: 1:20:34 And his famous song. And, boy, when you listen to Sam Cooke, I did this with another person. I said, "it brings tears to your eyes." NB: 1:20:42 Yep, it does. SM: 1:20:44 And, and his life ended in a sad way. NB: 1:20:47 Yep, that is right. SM: 1:20:49 So, it is just amazing. I have a couple of general questions here that I wanted, I wanted to just ask you. Does, does time you know what happens in time, is things just like a cemetery, you put a stone up and it fades away over time, and does time kill all remembrance events, once those who were alive are no more? NB: 1:21:15 I do not think so. I think Americans could name all kinds of historical moments and have actually really powerful deep feelings about them, that are far removed from themselves. And that is where what we choose to have, say in our history curriculum really does matter. It is why I think when you see right wing activists calling for the removal of what they are calling critical race theory, it is about trying to decide what we are going to remember what we are going to forget. SM: 1:21:48 Right. NB: 1:21:48 And they are very intentionally trying to make sure that we remember a very particular version of our national history, that is false. But that is, is what I would call whitewashed. And I choose that word very intentionally. SM: 1:22:01 Right. NB: 1:22:02 So, no, I do not think it is it, I think, in fact, Americans, and I would say, I think even human beings generally, part of what makes us human is having a connection to what came before, to having that sense of connection across time in many cultures, right, the ancestors remain alive and with us. So, no memory, and that it should always, but is it always lost, I just think, I just do not think it is true. I think what we remember is very carefully constructed. Again, I do not usually think of it as conspiratorial, increasingly in 2022, it feels very conspiratorial, or people very intentionally trying to decide what kids are going to learn to remember what they are going to be, not ever be exposed to so that it can be forgotten. SM: 1:22:45 I only do this based on you know, I go to a lot of events, and I have seen the numbers get smaller and smaller. NB: 1:22:52 Yep-yep. SM: 1:22:53 And just, Josiah Bunting III, you know, a conservative, but he is the chair of the World War Two Memorial. He talks, he, when he speaks at the memorial, he has tears in his eyes because he says, "As time goes on, I am, we are doing this memorial to remember what happened in World War Two, that they saved the world." But as time goes on, and it is, it is a lot of people coming there. But the people, there is fewer and fewer attending the events, and fewer and fewer, World War Two vets alive. And then you go to the Vietnam Memorial that opened in 1982, the same thing is happening there. NB: 1:23:32 Yep, that was really interesting. SM: 1:23:34 The numbers are dwindling. And at Kent State, even though they were getting great numbers, sometimes. I know the 50th anniversary would have been a big one. NB: 1:23:41 Yeah, that would have been amazing. SM: 1:23:42 But, their numbers are even going down as well. NB: 1:23:44 Yep. SM: 1:23:45 So, I worry that, it is just me because I was a history major too, like you. NB: 1:23:50 Exactly. [laughs] SM: 1:23:52 We cannot forget our history. And that leads me into this question here. What are the main lessons from the (19)60s and early (19)70s that are still in with us? And what are the lessons learned that have been lost as time goes on? NB: 1:24:10 Those are huge questions. I guess the first lesson learned is that change is possible, that collaboration work, that every person's life is of equal value. And then if we could learn that, it would make for a healthier world for all of us. And alongside that, that the forces in here, I am thinking both the systems in place but also literally the white supremacist, not only systems but the, the viewpoints that undergirded are deeply-deeply-deeply woven into the fabric of the country, and how we live and are, are not easy to unfurl or to pull apart. And we can see that I think in the backlash that, that takes place relatively quickly, and that we are living with even, you know, obviously living with right now, that change is never permanent. So, the hard-fought battles of the 1960s does not mean that we do not have to continue to fight for, for justice. And that justice, I mean, in particular, racial justice, because it is the center of this story. But the other forms of justice, for all human beings, for all the ways in which we are different, that does not change the fact that we are each valuable, but that battle is an ongoing one, that one can only avoid, if one has extraordinary privilege, and that it is incumbent on those that have it, myself included, to be a part of that fight. Because it takes it does, in fact, take some power, as well as a lot of hearts, and energy, and commitment, and sacrifice, to create the kind of change that, in the 1960s was made, not by those with power, but ultimately by those who demanded it. As many people have talked about, including Martin Luther King, those whose names we will not know, but who nevertheless, were the heart of the battle. SM: 1:26:15 Yeah. In the past, there is a lot of dialogue. I know in the (19)90s, I can remember on college campuses, there is an awful lot of dialogue, but where is the action? Where is the deed? And-and-and many deeds have come but now the deeds are being challenged. And there does not seem to be the dialogue, because what happens now is that people do not listen to anybody they-they, we have very poor listeners. They, it is my way or the highway. And that kind of a mentality that kind of scares me today in the world. I am a believer that conservatives and liberals can work together- NB: 1:26:56 Absolutely. SM: 1:26:57 -that red and blue work together, the Black and white to work together. NB: 1:27:00 Absolutely. Me too, me too. SM: 1:27:01 And in the, in the interfaith councils of the 1960s, with- NB: 1:27:05 There you go. SM: 1:27:06 -Rabbi Heschel, and Dr. King and the civil rights leaders, and the Catholic priests- NB: 1:27:12 That is right. SM: 1:27:12 -Father Hesburgh. I mean, they work together, they had lots of differences in our beliefs, but they could work together for common cause. NB: 1:27:21 Right, and it has to do with having an awareness. What do I want to say, being able to imagine lives that are not your own. SM: 1:27:28 Right. NB: 1:27:28 Even though you may disagree, you can understand why someone is coming to the place they come to, so that you can then find the commonalities that you might have as well. No, I agree completely. And I worry so much, because I think so much of what is happening right now, here my partisanship is right, my partisan position is so obvious, but I feel like so much of what is being pushed right now from the right, has a singular lack of that kind of empathy- SM: 1:27:55 Right. NB: 1:27:55 -or that kind of awareness of others whose lives are not the same, that you could use the kind of language that, that candidate and then, President Trump use to talk about people from other countries suggests a singular lack of an appreciation for the humanity of other people who are not you. SM: 1:28:11 Right. NB: 1:28:12 And I really feel like that is being rewarded now, in some ways. And, I find that horrifying. SM: 1:28:18 I agree. I agree. I am going to, my last question is something that I have been asking everyone, and that is, what advice or message would you like to give to future generations of students, faculty, and national scholars who will be listening to this tape 50 years from now? What words would advise, 50 years, we are not going to be here. The Boomer generation will not be around anymore. The people who experienced all this stuff from the (19)60s will be gone and (19)70s. Just your thoughts, what words would you advice, give advice to future generations? NB: 1:28:58 I am not a big advice giver. So, I will take this one to a very simple place, which is what I do for a living is teach history. And at the center of that is really teaching young people to both think critically and question everything, and everyone apt to do it with a little bit of humility. And those were lessons that have been taught to be brought to me by my colleagues, especially my colleagues in African American Studies. And I think that, that has been really sound advice that is been given to me, which is ask questions, think critically, question every source, and every person, and everything, and every idea. But as you do, so bring some humility to it. SM: 1:28:58 Very good. That is great word of advice, I would say. NB: 1:29:43 Yeah, I did not create it. It comes to me from others. SM: 1:29:46 All right. Well, I think. that is it. I want to thank you very much for this interview. NB: 1:29:50 Well, I thank you so much. It was a real pleasure to think about these things alongside you. SM: 1:29:55 Yeah, let me turn my tape off here. (End od Interview) Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Nancy Bristow https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/42646d95192a07a5fd4680a0da1ab574.jpeg 019b5a9eb59cfeac4d3f555856175032 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b36b14bd398cfaa6e534e583cb0756a4.mp3 44b1cba641c4cf09468fa281510249ad Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Audio interviews Title A name given to the resource McKiernan Interviews Description An account of the resource Stephen McKiernan's collection of interviews includes more than two hundred interviews with prominent figures of the 1960s, which were collected between the mid-1990s to 2023 The collection provides narratives of people who were actively involved in or witnessed events in the 1960s, an era which spurred profound cultural and political transformation in the twentieth century. Interviewees include politicians, artists, scholars, musicians, authors, and veterans who delve into the decade’s most prominent issues and events, including the civil rights movement, the free speech movement, the anti-war movement, women’s rights, gay rights, segregation, the Vietnam War, Woodstock, Hippies, Yippies, and individualism.<br /><br /> <h3>The McKiernan 22</h3> <div>Stephen McKiernan interviewed legends of the 1960s. When asked in 2021 where one should start when sifting through his vast collection, he provided the following list:</div> <ul> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/854">Julian Bond</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1866">Bobby Muller</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1175">Craig McNamara</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/910">Dr. Arthur Levine</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/837">Diane Carlson Evans</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/942">Dr. Ellen Schrecker</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/876">Dr. Lee Edwards</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/841">Peter Coyote</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1233">Dr. Roosevelt Johnson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/899">Rennie Davis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1222">Kim Phuc</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/917">George McGovern</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/833">Frank Schaeffer</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/840">Rev. Dr. Frank Forrester Church </a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1240">Dr. Marilyn Young</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/842">James Fallows</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/835">Joseph Lee Galloway</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/911">John Lewis</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/839">Paul Critchlow</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/888">Steve Gunderson</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/1159">Charles Kaiser</a></li> <li><a href="https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/items/show/2407">Joseph Lewis</a></li> </ul> Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Stephen McKiernan Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Language A language of the resource English Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: Simple Audio Player (Amplitude.js) This template displays an audio player with the first attached image file as the 'cover image'. For its audio source, the template looks for the first attached audio file. If additional audio files exist, they should be combined using audio editing software, or a separate Omeka item should be made for each part. Date of Interview ND Interviewer The person(s) performing the interview Stephen McKiernan Interviewee The person(s) being interviewed Dr. Bruce Schulman Biographical Text Dr. Bruce Schulman is the William E. Huntington Professor of History at Boston University. Born in New York City, Dr. Schulman is the author of three books and the editor or co-editor of five others. His teaching and research concentrate on the history of the modern United States, particularly on the relationships between politics and broader cultural change. Dr. Schulman received the B.A. summa cum laude with Distinction in History from Yale University and his M.A. and Ph.D. from Stanford University. Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 1:29:51 Language English Digital Publisher Binghamton University Libraries Digital Format audio/mp4 Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data MicroCassette Date of Digitization 11 February 2022 Material Type Sound Interview Format Video or Audio Audio Keywords Andrew Jackson; Corruption; Yale University; 1960s; Free Speech Movement; 1970s; Ronald Reagan; Idea; 1950s; Richard Nixon; Boomer generations; Disco; Students; University; Protest. Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Rights Statement Many items in our digital collections are copyrighted. If you want to reuse any material in our collection you must seek permission, or decide if your purpose can qualify as fair use under the U.S. Copyright Law Section 107. If you think copyright or privacy has been violated, the University Libraries will investigate the issue. Please see our take down policy. If using any materials in this online digital collection for educational or research purposes, please cite accordingly. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Interview with Dr. Bruce Schulman https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/790e48d1d8b5c4a6cf321e11776a311c.pdf 4c37910a621265c95cb4e12e04ac6194 PDF Text Text D w T e    D(Le Y ;   (‘>('\r_e\ C v j;  of.) i­ O71 Cou  The Binghamton University Music Department, Time­Warner Cable, and the SS  Discovery Center are proud to present  [4 Z e  E C D E P A R T M E N T Children’s Concert: MAKING MOVIE MUSIC University Symphony Orchestra Timothy Perry, Director The Percussion Family:  Drums, Mallet Instruments, Unpitched Percussion Auburn Run­Out  Ernest Muzquiz The Brass Family:  Trumpet, French Horn, Trombone, Tuba Fanfare for the Play ‘La Peri’  Paul Dukas The Woodwind Family:  Flute & Piccolo, Oboe & English Horn, Clarinet & Brass Clarinet, Bassoon Noble Harold Noble  Mayer’s Dance from Buntingford..............occceeeveevevervensenienenesesssiesieseeseesessessessessessenenneen.  The String Family: Violin, Viola, Violoncello, Contrabass, Piano, Harp Holst Gustav Holst  The Dargason, from St. Paul ’s SUite.............coveevevienenesesineseniesiesnesesresesscssesensenenneenne.  Making Movie Music ­ Setting:  The When and Where The Polar Express Suite ..  Believe, The Polar Express  When Christmas Comes to Town, Spirit of the Season Alan Silvestri and Glen Ballard arr. Jerry Brubaker Character:  The Who Suite from Beauty and the Beast.........  B e l l e  Be Our Guest – Beauty and the Beast  ..Music by Alan Menken arr. Danny Troob Action:  The What Selections from Pirates of the CaribBean............uueeeeeeeeecreeeeeeieeireeeeeeieeecseesee Badelt arr. Ted Ricketts “Disney’s Beauty and the Beast Orchestral Suite”  Arranged by Danny Troob  Music by Alan Menken © 1992 Wonderland Music Co., Inc. (BMI) 1 1  U N I   R S I T i   of New York  ]  State University E    E N R A W C A T H E  P O W E R  O F  Y O U EDiscovery C aA e  H L  lllllmIl T    ID B L E �The Binghamton University Symphony Orchestra Timothy Perry, Director Flute/Piccolo Erica L e o Missy Voldan Valerie Spiller Oboe/English Horn Marissa Ludwig Maxwell Rosenberg Clarinet Percussion Ai Karasawa ' Caleb De Groote Khristine Jackson Mark Turley Keyboard Stefano Pena Harp Alexander Vincenzi Bethany B onhoff Gregg Ackerman Heather Boland Leigh Collins Mary Schappert Bassoon Micah Banner­Baine Yang Hu Jennifer Paull Liz Baker Griffin Sargent Erika Chin Akira Maezawa Dan Goldberg Elizabeth Sterling Kevin Acunto Alexander Wong Alexandra K. Brutus Eileen Tam Mayra Rodriguez David Weinberg Eleanor Sonley French Horn Alexa Weinberg Diana Amari Matt Rek Robert Muller William Stallsmith Trumpet William Gilchrest Trombone Daniel J. Brisk Hikiru Naito Richard Mokan Tuba Katherine Winchell Violin I Yiolin II Marie Mizuno Hyobin Lee Janet Kim Christina Laube Molly Ariotti Jennifer Liebman Richard Goldman Amy Honigsberg Johnny Pang Juliann Taylor Emily Krecko Suji Lim Rachel Jacobs Adrienne Martian Viola Danielle So fer Christopher Fiore Melissa Le e Joseph Gili berti Sarah Sterling Ted Gramiak Abigail Fabro Jeffrey Ko hn Beth Vayshenker Macia Gravelding Kerry Conway Janet Ievins Violoncello Daniel Copel Ryan Joyce Emily Creo C. MacKenzie Wen John Choi Jim Glasgow Nicholas Capone Jennifer Aracena Contrabass Serena Murray Julian Goetz Andrew Eiche David Katz � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&amp;tab=LibraryCatalog&amp;search_scope=MyInstitution&amp;vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&amp;mode=basic&amp;offset=0&amp;conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email:&nbsp;<a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 audio disc Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 01:02:30 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204945">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204945</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Children's concert: Making Movie Music, October 13, 2006 Recital Tape 2006-10-13 Description An account of the resource Works of Muzquiz, Dukas, Noble, Holst, Sylvestri/Ballard, Menken, Badelt. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Perry, Timothy Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-10-13 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound IIIF Item Metadata UUID 0f5e4c34-5686-4afb-9d1b-36a5e67e49f9 https://omeka.binghamton.edu/omeka/files/original/b2eb868cbafa34691436b412eb509154.pdf 8c77ea0399f30dbd42a1e7e87c65f6e5 PDF Text Text AN \ \ Pe) y \ » f M ‘  r“; m HARPUR JAZZ MIDDAY PROGRAM December 7, 2006 Pe] ;  Featuring: Bruce Johnstone Program selected from the following: . Steve Swallow Let’s Eat..  Second Handy MOLION.....ciiciricnnnnrccniencsnnnessenssssssssesssssssnsssensssssnssssssannsansanenness  ‘ l Swallow Bite Your Grandmother . Steve Swallow Five Spot After Dark  Benny Golson ‘ 1 A Who’s Got Rhythm? (Bruce Does).  Al Hamme in’ f or B aroque  Gom  A l  H amme Longing for Bahia  .Dorval Caymmi Stolen  m Nelson 1­1 1 ]£ Bruce Johnstone ­ Baritone Saxophone Albert Hamme: Tenor Sax & Flute Mike Carbone: Alto Sax & Flute Camille Thurman: Soprano Sax Dino Losito: Piano Andrew Williams: Bass Joe Roma: Drum set �Bruce Johnstone Bruce Johnstone b.Sept 1st 1943 Wellington New Zealand. Bruce Johnstone’s first exposure to American audiences was as a member of Maynard Ferguson’s band in 1972. He recorded three albums with the Ferguson Band which, along with live concert appearances placed him in the #3 spot in Down Beat Magazine’s Readers Poll behind Gerry Mulligan and Pepper Adams. He held this position for the next ten years. Leaving Ferguson in 1976, he moved to N.Y., signed with Arista’s new Freedom label and with co­leaders Rick Petrone and Joe Corsello formed the new Jazz Fusion band New York Mary. Both albums produced by this band met with great critical success. While in N.Y. Bruce also recorded with Anthony Braxton (Creative Orchestra Music 1976) with blues singer Luther Allison. (The horn section being Michael and Randy Brecker, Lew DelGatto and Bruce Johnstone.) In 1977 Bruce joined The Woody Herman Band and toured and recorded with the band until April 1978. Since 1978, he has lived and worked in Western N.Y.(primarily Buffalo N.Y. and Erie PA) and maintains a busy concert/clinic schedule including appearances with The Dave Stevens Big Band, The Buffalo Brass, The Erie Philharmonic Pops, The Bemus Bay Pops, his own small groups and with The Don Menza Octet. He is currently Director of Jazz Studies at SUNY Fredonia. Prior to coming to the States with Ferguson, Bruce had had solid musical careers in Copenhagen Denmark where he played with Ben Webster and Dexter Gordon. London England where he was a studio musician. Sydney Australia where he was a studio musician and Assistant Musical Director at a prominent Sydney Nightclub called Chequers, and Wellington New Zealand, where he was a member of the NZBC Radio Big Band while still in High School. Bruce plays a Selmer MkVI Baritone with a Lawton 8*B mouthpiece and uses Rico 3 1/2 reeds. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1960's - present Title A name given to the resource Binghamton University Music Department Tape Recordings Subject The topic of the resource Concerts ; Instrumental music ; Live sound recordings Description An account of the resource Binghamton University Music Department recordings is an audio collection of concerts and recitals given on campus by students, faculty, and outside musical groups. The physical collection consists of reel-to-reel tapes, cassette tapes, and compact discs. The recordings <a href="https://suny-bin.primo.exlibrisgroup.com/discovery/search?query=any,contains,Binghamton%20University%20Music%20Department%20tape%20recordings&amp;tab=LibraryCatalog&amp;search_scope=MyInstitution&amp;vid=01SUNY_BIN:01SUNY_BIN&amp;mode=basic&amp;offset=0&amp;conVoc=false">have been catalogued</a> and are located in <a href="https://www.binghamton.edu/libraries/about/special-collections/">Special Collections</a>. In addition, the collection includes copies of programmes. <br /><br />The Libraries have begun making some of the collections available digitally on campus. These recordings are restricted to the Binghamton University Community. Please contact Special Collections for questions regarding access off campus.<br />Email:&nbsp;<a href="mailto:speccoll@binghamton.edu">speccoll@binghamton.edu</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright. Template: PDF / Rosetta PDF with Rosetta audio/video link Original Format The type of object, such as painting, sculpture, paper, photo, and additional data 1 audio disc Duration Length of time involved (seconds, minutes, hours, days, class periods, etc.) 31:31:00 Streaming Audio Streaming URL <a href="https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204939">https://eternity.binghamton.edu/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid=IE204939</a> Accessibility Copy/Paste below: Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Binghamton University Libraries is working very hard to create transcriptions of all audio/visual media present on this site. If you require a specific transcription for accessibility purposes, you may contact us at <a href="mailto:orb@binghamton.edu">orb@binghamton.edu</a>. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Jazz improv, December 7, 2006 Recital Tape 2006-12-7b Description An account of the resource Title information taken from 2006/2007 academic year performances list. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Carbone, Michael Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Binghamton University Libraries Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-12-7 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource In copyright Type The nature or genre of the resource sound IIIF Item Metadata UUID 592b93c1-1b78-4740-b1b7-266f7462c86a